Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 27025

 1                           Wednesday, 28 March 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             Good morning, Mr. Janc.

 8             THE WITNESS:  Good morning.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Good morning,

11     Excellencies.  Good morning, everyone.

12                           WITNESS:  DUSAN JANC [Resumed]

13                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Janc.

15        A.   Good morning.

16        Q.   You took into account and accepted the ICMP list with its

17     identification numbers and profiles, but for some reason you combined

18     with those findings the names taken from the ICRC instead of the ICMP.

19     Can you tell us why?

20        A.   I would say it's a combination of both.  These two lists were

21     cross-referenced by our demographic unit and they found out that on the

22     ICMP list there are people who are included into the ICRC missing list.

23     So it's, yes, a combination of both lists.  But what I was counting for

24     my report, I extracted individuals which I found on the ICMP list,

25     because on the ICRC list there are still people, individuals, who are

Page 27026

 1     reported missing and have not yet been identified.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Why did you give preference to the ICRC list?

 3        A.   In a way I didn't give priority to any of those two sources, but

 4     they are different sources.  For example, ICRC list has been compiled

 5     closer to the event, after the fall of Srebrenica, whereas on the other

 6     hand the ICMP commenced its work in 2001.  Also on the ICRC list you

 7     would get certain information more accurate than on the ICMP list.  I

 8     think I told yesterday that on the ICRC list you will find the date and

 9     place of this disappearance more accurate than on the ICMP list.  So

10     that's why you have to take into consideration both lists, but those two

11     lists were examined in details by demographic unit, and I think there are

12     experts who will testify in this trial if they haven't yet.

13        Q.   If I understood correctly when you say "our demographic units,"

14     you mean the demographic units of the OTP; correct?

15        A.   Correct.  I was having in mind Mr. Helge Brunborg and

16     Ms. Ewa Tabeau.

17        Q.   Thank you.  What else should be taken from the ICMP list into

18     that combination rather than something else?

19        A.   I don't think I understand what you are asking.  Can you perhaps

20     clarify?

21        Q.   Well, I must say I'm a bit concerned.  If we have a menu of

22     things that we like and that we don't like, and then we take a bit from

23     the ICRC and replace with it something from the ICMP list, this mix of

24     apples and oranges - if I can say so - is a bit inconsistent.  Did you

25     take only the names from the ICRC list or something else as well?

Page 27027

 1             JUDGE KWON:  I don't understand your question.  Starting from

 2     your previous answer, whether witness was giving preference to the ICRC

 3     list, I do not understand where the witness has taken the names from the

 4     ICRC list.

 5             But in any event, do you understand the question?

 6             THE WITNESS:  I will try to explain as I understood it.  So I

 7     haven't taken the names for the purposes of my report from the ICMP list.

 8     I did take them from the ICRC -- sorry, from the ICRC list.  I did take

 9     them from the ICMP and not ICRC.  I didn't mix those two.  It was not

10     only the names which I used for my report were important on the ICMP

11     list.  There were site codes, case IDs, protocol IDs, these were all

12     important information which I found out on these lists.  None of these

13     information, apart from missing person name and their date of birth,

14     would appear on the ICRC list.  If there were instances, for example, I

15     needed to confirm something, where and when certain individual went

16     missing, then I would consult the ICRC list.  Because, simply, we did see

17     yesterday that on the ICMP list for most of people the date of

18     disappearance is 11th of July.  But for the purposes of my report, let me

19     emphasize again, the basic list which I used was the ICMP list.  And

20     there -- this is where I extracted the people, individuals, from, apart

21     from those 35 which were identified before of course.

22             JUDGE KWON:  So let me be sure on my part.  All that you did

23     vis-a-vis the ICRC list was the process of checking whether the

24     individuals identified by the ICMP were matching with the ICRC list.  Am

25     I correct in so understanding?

Page 27028

 1             THE WITNESS:  That part was done by the demographic unit.  I

 2     didn't -- I haven't been involved in this issue.  And they will explain I

 3     think in detail what discrepancies they did find in relation to matching

 4     both lists.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Well, I want to know which column in the ICMP list should be

 8     corrected to fit the elements of the ICRC list.  Is it the place of

 9     disappearance - and we've seen that a large number disappeared in the

10     woods - or is it the date?  What must be amended in the ICMP list with

11     the help of the ICRC list?

12        A.   Let me clarify.  These are two separate lists and they were

13     created for two different purposes.  And, you know, I don't want to go

14     into the methodology how they were created, not even why, for example,

15     the ICMP decided to put the date of disappearance as 11 of July rather

16     than the exact date.  So that's up to the institution who made up the

17     list.  So I don't think anything should be changed in relation that I can

18     use in my report.  Because what was important to compile my report were

19     the entries which I explained in detail yesterday, and those entries

20     would not appear on the ICRC list.  So you cannot say particularly, yes,

21     this should be amended or this should not be amended.  Because for the

22     purposes of my report, I don't need anything to be amended in these

23     lists.  For the -- for some other purposes of the accuracy in relation,

24     for example, to the date of disappearance or place of disappearance,

25     that's different issue.

Page 27029

 1        Q.   So from which list should we take the date of disappearance and

 2     the place of disappearance to be associated with the DNA profiles with

 3     identifications?

 4        A.   I would definitely consult the ICRC list in regards to this

 5     issue.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  But ICMP made its own list much later with much more

 7     information than the ICRC had.

 8        A.   Yes, that's also my understanding.

 9        Q.   All right.  Is this the only arbitrariness that you observe in

10     the ICMP material?

11        A.   I would say this is the most obvious one.

12        Q.   These two columns, the date of death -- or rather, the date of

13     disappearance and the place of disappearance?

14        A.   Yes, these are -- date and the place of disappearance are the

15     most obvious, although I did spot some discrepancies also with the site

16     name column, where, for example, site name would not be -- the name of

17     the site would be different than the case ID would show us.  And also

18     many discrepancies within the site co-ordinate column, so where exactly

19     certain grave was exhumed.  So there were discrepancies in this data as

20     well.

21             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure I'm following the conversation.  What

22     did you mean by "obvious"?  Mr. Karadzic referred to the date of

23     disappearance and place of disappearance.  Was the ICMP ever tasked with

24     such -- finding such places and such date?  And what did you mean by

25     "obvious"?

Page 27030

 1             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour, they were never tasked to find

 2     exactly when and where exactly certain individuals went missing.  What

 3     they were doing were they were trying to establish if they went missing

 4     after the fall of Srebrenica, if they're related to this event.

 5             What I meant by "obvious" is you can see clearly that from my

 6     experience before reviewing the ICRC list where you can see you have

 7     different date of disappearance for individuals and also place of

 8     disappearance, it was a little bit odd to me to find in the ICMP list

 9     that the date of disappearance is for every single person 11th of July

10     and for -- as place of disappearance would be forest or Potocari I think,

11     those two sites would be listed.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

13             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Did you also take into account the third list, the certificates

17     of death issued by Bosnian authorities which mostly indicate where the

18     people disappeared?  That's a third document.

19        A.   I would say I did review some of those documents as well, I did

20     see them, but they were analysed in detail by demographic unit.

21        Q.   So these demographic elements from your report and your testimony

22     should not be taken for granted; we should wait for certification?

23        A.   No, that's not true because I know that they verified this data,

24     demographic unit verified this data.  And I relied my report also upon

25     their conclusions, that numbers there are reliable.  Individuals listed

Page 27031

 1     there who are identified are the ones who went missing after the fall of

 2     Srebrenica and that's why I consider this reliable.

 3        Q.   Mr. Janc, what worries me is that there may be arbitrariness on

 4     your part as well because you move rather freely from document to

 5     document and then you choose like from a menu, we'll take this from this

 6     document because it suits the case of the Prosecution and from the other

 7     document we'll pick something else.  Do you stand behind everything

 8     you've said and written?

 9        A.   Yes, I do.

10        Q.   Why can't you answer these questions then?  Why are you directing

11     me to your demographers?  What if they don't testify at all?

12        A.   I think I answered that my report is based on the ICMP data, on

13     the list compiled by the ICMP.  This data were verified by demographic

14     unit and that's why I rely -- relied on this data.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Let me clarify that.

16             Previously you said I rely -- referring to the demographic report

17     in response to the question of Mr. Karadzic, you said:

18             "I relied my report also upon their conclusions ..."

19             Does it mean that you relied on ICMP report that has been

20     verified by the demographic experts?  Or did you rely on demographic

21     experts' conclusion directly?  If you could be more specific.

22             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.  What I meant was that I was -- I

23     relied my report on the verifications made by demographic unit in

24     relation to this report to the ICMP list.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Could you be more specific as to the meaning of the

Page 27032

 1     verification made by demographics.

 2             THE WITNESS:  What I have done -- what they have done, they

 3     compared to the -- the two lists, and they found - if I'm not

 4     mistaken - that most of the individuals which are on the ICMP list were

 5     included on the -- were also part of the ICMP [sic] list.  And in

 6     addition, there were some additional names which didn't appear on the

 7     ICRC list.  Through their further examination, I think they verified

 8     those additional individuals also as being part of the individuals who

 9     went missing after the fall of Srebrenica.  So -- and that's what I was

10     having in mind when saying "verification."  So -- and this is explained

11     in detail in their reports.  So I would need to consult these reports for

12     more -- for additional details, but it was long time ago when I checked

13     this, their conclusions in their reports.

14             JUDGE KWON:  So you did not do further than what demographic

15     experts did in relation to ICMP list.  Is there anything further that you

16     did yourself than the demographic experts?

17             THE WITNESS:  No.  No.  I --

18             JUDGE KWON:  Put simply, then, you relied on the ICMP list, and

19     the ICMP list can be verified when demographics come to testify.  Is that

20     what you're saying?

21             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  That's what I'm saying, yes.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

23             MS. WEST:  I'm sorry, Mr. President, I think we need to just make

24     maybe one clarification before the transcript goes off.  Page 8, line 3,

25     the witness said on 2 "that most of the individuals which are," line 3,

Page 27033

 1     "on the ICMP list were included were also part of the ICMP list."  I

 2     wonder if the individual meant originally, "were on the ICRC list were

 3     included on the ICMP list."  I wonder if that could be clarified.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Do you follow, Mr. Janc?

 5             THE WITNESS:  Yes, correct.  It should be ICRC list.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  So most of the individuals which are on the ICRC

 7     list were included or were also part of ICMP list.

 8             THE WITNESS:  Yes, correct, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

10             Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   That's true, but I have to come back to this.  So you found a

13     possibility for two columns in the ICMP papers to be questioned in

14     comparison with the ICRC lists; right?

15        A.   Yes, they show different data.

16        Q.   And the ICMP list was updated compared to the ICRC.  It's

17     fresher, newer, later than the ICRC list.

18        A.   The ICMP list is more recent, of course, but if I'm not mistaken

19     the ICRC list is also updated very often.  So they are updating ICRC list

20     as well.  If they find discrepancies or they find individuals who were

21     reported as went missing after the fall of Srebrenica - and that was not

22     the case - these individuals are then taken off this list.  So also the

23     ICRC list is a live document.

24        Q.   Which version of the ICRC list did you use for comparison and

25     decided that it was more accurate than the ICMP list from year 1995 or

Page 27034

 1     some other list?

 2        A.   No, it should be later than 1995.  And it was, again, not me who

 3     compared this list.  It was demographic unit who compared them, but I can

 4     be now specific as to which list was the one when I consulted them last.

 5        Q.   You said a moment ago that it never happened in any case that

 6     people were found.  Do you know that people even came from Novi Sad,

 7     their names are on lists and on monuments, whereas they had been living

 8     in Serbia all the time, got married and led normal lives.  Are you aware

 9     of such cases?  People even came back from Germany, but let's just take

10     Novi Sad which is much closer.

11        A.   No, I'm not aware of this particular case.  I do know that people

12     were taken off the lists, but we can discuss individual cases if you wish

13     so and we can take a look what the problem was, but about the Novi Sad

14     case, I'm not particularly aware of this case.

15        Q.   Well, tell me now, how did the ICRC get its information?

16        A.   Now, I have to admit that I haven't analysed that area in detail.

17     I do know that the information are coming from the relatives at the time

18     when they reported their family members missing after the fall of

19     Srebrenica, but in detail I haven't examined this list in respect to how

20     they reported them missing.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             JUDGE BAIRD:  Mr. Janc, was there anything else you could have

23     done other than rely on the verification of the demographic unit?

24             THE WITNESS:  Yes, and I did several other things, Your Honour.

25     Not for all the cases, but there were sometimes discrepancies in the ICMP

Page 27035

 1     data which I could establish reviewing the site codes or case IDs.  And

 2     in such cases where there was something -- according to my opinion

 3     something must be wrong, I checked, for example, this individual in

 4     other -- in our database or I would run search and try to find more

 5     information.  And doing that, I think that I excluded, let's say, up to

 6     ten individuals from the ICMP list because they were not related to

 7     Srebrenica event.  I found that they were -- that they died before in

 8     some other events, in 1992 and 1993, for example; and I excluded them.  I

 9     haven't included them into my report.

10             So I did try to verify this data also myself.  Of course, it is

11     too many individuals that you would be doing more every single one, but

12     if there is a discrepancy which is obvious, or in my opinion was obvious,

13     then I did run search and try to establish what the problem was.  So I

14     was trying to verify it myself as well.

15             JUDGE BAIRD:  Thank you.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency, for

17     that clarification.  It is useful.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Mr. Janc, did you inform the ICMP about your objections in

20     relation to these two columns?

21        A.   You are referring to date and place of disappearance, no.

22        Q.   Well, that too and also whether they lost their lives earlier on.

23     I mean generally speaking, did you collate your findings to those of the

24     ICMP and did you find any aberrations, if you will?

25        A.   Yes, I informed the ICMP about my findings, and nowadays you will

Page 27036

 1     see these people are not included into their list anymore.  They would be

 2     found in a separate column which says "not related to Srebrenica" or

 3     "excluded."  But I'm not sure was this conclusion made by themself or

 4     because they were informed from our side that there is discrepancy.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  All right.  So you think that the Red Cross found

 6     these names by interviewing relatives; right?  What about the ICMP, how

 7     did they get their information about the names, places of disappearance,

 8     and dates of disappearance?

 9        A.   My understanding is the same.  They do interview or they're

10     trying more to locate the relatives of these individuals because they're

11     trying to get as many blood samples from the relatives as possible in

12     order to conclude or to identify particular individual.  And doing that,

13     of course, they have to approach relatives to create a database.  So I

14     think their approach is much more similar, but again in detail I don't

15     know this answer.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Could a distant relative also report disappearance to

17     the Red Cross or some official?

18        A.   I would assume so, but I don't know.

19        Q.   However, as for the ICMP a distant relative could not provide

20     blood samples or information and an official couldn't do it either.  It

21     would have to be a person who was close to the missing person; right?

22        A.   For sure not official unless he was a relative.  It should be a

23     close relative of course.  So how close, it's again about the genetics

24     and I would not go into that area because I'm not an expert.

25        Q.   All right.  Couldn't information -- shouldn't information

Page 27037

 1     provided by a close relative be trusted more than the Red Cross list that

 2     can be compiled from various sources, including distant ones?

 3        A.   It all depends.  You have to go on a case-to-case basis and to

 4     see details as to who reported, when reported, how reported -- how close

 5     this individual was to that person who reported it missing and, you know,

 6     it all depends.  You know, you have to go on a case-to-case basis.

 7     Because not always -- even if -- if it is a relative, for example, he

 8     wouldn't be able to report the place or date of disappearance because we

 9     have many cases when people were in a group walking through the woods

10     together and they witnessed, you know, that certain individual went

11     missing or was killed.  So this is the more reliable source.  For

12     example, friend of that individual is more reliable source as to the

13     place and date of disappearance than the relative who was not, for

14     example, with this person at the time.  So it all depends what you want

15     to establish.  So you can't say black or white this is more reliable than

16     the other.

17        Q.   Thank you.  However, since they were created before the ICMP

18     list, were ICRC lists accessible to the ICMP and why did the ICMP not use

19     them?  Why did they try to get information of their own?

20        A.   I'm not sure if the ICMP -- if -- sorry, if the ICRC list was

21     available to the ICMP.  I don't know about that and how -- if it was

22     available, they used that list.  So that one, I don't know.  But if they

23     collected - I mean the ICMP - the information by themselves for

24     verification purposes, I mean our OTP verification purposes, those two

25     lists are better then because they are unrelated to each other.  And if

Page 27038

 1     they match -- they both match, so then you have more reliable information

 2     about certain individual.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I have to intervene.  I'm of the

 4     impression that we are wasting time in a sense.

 5             Mr. Janc, I'm asking you again whether ICMP was tasked to find

 6     out where the missing persons disappeared?

 7             THE WITNESS:  No, Your Honour.  That was obviously not their

 8     task.  Their task is to identify individuals.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  And, Mr. Karadzic, you didn't put these questions

10     when Mr. Parson was here.  So come to more relevant -- critical issues as

11     to which Mr. Janc testified in his examination-in-chief.  I should have

12     said "Mr. Parsons" instead of "Parson."

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With the greatest respect, sir,

14     Mr. Parsons did not question these two columns in his findings, but

15     Mr. Janc did and the OTP did.  It's as if they had a menu and they choose

16     some columns from the ICMP and the two that they don't like they take

17     from the ICRC.

18             MS. WEST:  Mr. President --

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Had Mr. Parsons challenged that, I

20     would have asked him.

21             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, I object.  Mr. Parsons testified in

22     regarding all the ICMP database.  If Mr. Karadzic had chosen to question

23     him about these particular two columns, he could have done so.  We did

24     not pick and choose which information should come through each witness in

25     some method to bypass a cross-examination.  If he wanted to talk about

Page 27039

 1     this information with the person who is best-placed to talk about it, he

 2     should have done so with Mr. Parsons.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Let's come to more core issues, Mr. Karadzic.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Is it correct that names are very important, or rather, of

 7     crucial importance for determining what the fate of a particular person

 8     was?  For example, it is easy to establish a DNA profile if you have

 9     material, but do you have to link that up with the name of that

10     particular person?  That is to say, do you have to identify that person

11     with the assistance of relatives or some yard-stick that is used?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned that there are 260 profiles that

14     haven't been identified yet.  What does that mean, that they have not

15     been identified yet?  They have not been linked up to relatives; right?

16        A.   Yes, correct.  We don't know their names.

17        Q.   Thank you.  However, nevertheless you include them in the list of

18     missing persons after Srebrenica; right?

19        A.   Yes, because all of them, all of those 260, are found in mass

20     graves, where we have identifications of only individuals who went

21     missing after the fall of Srebrenica.  It's logical inference then that

22     all the others would be also related to that event.  I'm quite confident

23     to say, yes, they're related to the same event.

24        Q.   And after the fall of Srebrenica, all of those persons who were

25     found in mass graves went missing; right?

Page 27040

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  However, you yourself found about ten of those who

 3     were found in mass graves and who had lost their lives in 1992 and 1993.

 4     How do you explain that?

 5        A.   Those I found on the list, on the ICMP list, were not individuals

 6     buried or found in graves or in mass graves, let's put it this way.  They

 7     were -- because the ICMP list is not only mass graves.  I presented there

 8     also individuals which are found on the surface, for example, or in small

 9     graves.  And those ten, let's put it this way, I found them being either

10     on the surface or there was only one small grave, which I excluded as

11     being Srebrenica related, but there were individual cases in these

12     places.  I haven't found a single one, a single person so far, in mass

13     grave as being related to any other event than Srebrenica.  The exception

14     is Bljeceva 1 grave.  There we have a slight problem because we know it's

15     a mixed grave, and for that particular grave-site you will see that I

16     have not included any unique DNA profile because for obvious reason.  I

17     cannot say is it 1992 or 1995 related exhuming site.  Unless the only

18     exception was to that grave if there was connection of this unique

19     profile found in Bljeceva 1 to another grave-site, for example, Bljeceva

20     2 or Glogova, then it was again obvious to me that that individual came

21     from Glogova site.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Since, Mr. Janc, you refer to this, let me come back

23     to that issue.  Shall we upload page 30 of Exhibit P4772, that's a public

24     version of Mr. Janc's report which refers to Bljeceva grave.  You said

25     that's the only grave where the bodies not related to Srebrenica event

Page 27041

 1     were also buried or mixed?

 2             THE WITNESS:  Correct, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  You said this grave also contained the remains of

 4     bodies unconnected with the fall of Srebrenica.

 5             So what I wanted to be sure with you is that those numbers were

 6     not included in so-called unique profiles?

 7             THE WITNESS:  No.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Were they identified at all?

 9             THE WITNESS:  Yes, correct.  We have the names of 47, and those

10     47 are related to Srebrenica event and we have their names.  The

11     others --

12             JUDGE KWON:  No, the other -- on -- those bodies unconnected with

13     the fall of Srebrenica.  Were they identified?

14             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.  They are identified, I think

15     most of them, and the majority of the individuals within this grave are

16     unrelated to Srebrenica.  I think it's around -- at least when I last

17     checked it, it was 90 individuals.

18             JUDGE KWON:  9 --

19             THE WITNESS:  9-0.

20             JUDGE KWON:  How were they identified?  Were they also included

21     in ICRC list?

22             THE WITNESS:  No, they are not on the ICRC Srebrenica-related

23     list.  They would appear on other ICRC list, general list of all the

24     people missing in war of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  And they were not

25     included into the ICMP list, Srebrenica-related list either.  So we

Page 27042

 1     needed to check with the ICMP separately:  Please give us the names of

 2     the individuals found in this grave unrelated to Srebrenica, and they

 3     provided us these 90 names.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 5             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Can we get these names related to Bljeceva 1 and are not linked

 8     to Srebrenica 1995?  Can we carry out our own investigation?

 9        A.   I'm sure those names will be, if not yet already, disclosed to

10     you.  But I cannot help you because I don't have access to this data

11     anymore.

12             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure if Ms. West could help us in that

13     regard.

14             MS. WEST:  Your Honour, if we're -- we are talking about the

15     names, this other 90-plus names, it is un -- number one, it's unclear to

16     me at this point whether these would be disclosed to the Defence because

17     these are not related to our case.  And number two, even if we had these

18     in our possession, we would certainly have to consult with ICMP as to

19     their disclosure.  So at this point, that is all I can say about it.

20             JUDGE KWON:  We'll leave it at that, but I would expect you to do

21     your best to disclose that material, if you haven't, to the Defence.

22             Yes, please continue.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   So then we have to understand it this way, that in Bljeceva 1

Page 27043

 1     there are bodies from different periods of time pertaining to different

 2     events; right?

 3        A.   Correct.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  In your view, that the only grave in which there are

 5     bodies from different periods of time?

 6        A.   Yes, for these mass graves, yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  When completing your work, did you also rely on

 8     witness statements and other accessible material?

 9        A.   Yes, I did review many of such statements.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Did you notice that Mr. Erdemovic confirmed that at

11     the time of these events he was informed by a guard at the farm that

12     burials had taken place there earlier on as well, in the same place where

13     they buried the victims of the 16th of July, 1995?

14        A.   I don't have this particular statement of him in my memory.

15        Q.   For the participants, the transcript reference is 25387 and 388

16     from the testimony of Mr. Erdemovic in this case.

17             During the interview you said that you had amended a list on the

18     basis of information provided by a young girl who informed you that four

19     victims were buried in Cerska.  Do you remember that, the Cerska grave?

20        A.   There were two young kids, not young girls.  I do remember that,

21     yes.

22        Q.   What did they say?

23        A.   Basically they were captured during this search of terrain around

24     16th of July, 1995, in the area of Pobudje along with other prisoners.

25     They were transported back to Bratunac, and during their interviews they

Page 27044

 1     listed several people which were captured and taken prisoner along with

 2     them.  Checking their names on the ICMP list, I found out that they ended

 3     up in Cerska grave.  So they were taken from Bratunac to Cerska and

 4     executed.  Those two young boys, they survived.

 5        Q.   Four men were taken to Cerska, killed, and buried not before the

 6     16th of July; right?

 7        A.   You know, when I came across this information, I checked what

 8     kind of evidence we have on Cerska in relation to the exact date of

 9     execution.  I found out that most probably it did not happen, that

10     incident did not happen on 13th of July, but sometimes later, I would say

11     around 17th of July.  There were not only four individuals which were

12     named by these boys which are found in Cerska grave.  I found several

13     other statements because I had been investigating this part a little bit

14     more in detail, several other statements talking about other individuals

15     who are found in Cerska grave, and from their statement I can conclude

16     that they were also captured later than 13th of July, with this same

17     incident, this same sweep operation.  They were taken to Cerska and

18     executed.  I think I found about ten individuals from those different

19     statements which are found in Cerska grave.

20             Apart from that, I went further and I checked the exhumation

21     records and what was found during the exhumation process.  Because there

22     might be some information which will point us at a date or something

23     else.  Yes, what I found, indeed, I checked the dates on the watches

24     which were found inside the grave.  And many of them would reflect or

25     would stop around 18, 17, 18, 19 of whatever day, but I assume it's July.

Page 27045

 1     So that was additional fact which would point at my conclusion that these

 2     people were executed later than 13th of July.  These are the main things,

 3     yes.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  So, Mr. Janc, this is the first time that the Defence

 5     is hearing this, that the 13th is being brought into question, although

 6     our position is that this had not happened on the 13th.  I believe that

 7     this is the first time that the Trial Chamber is hearing this, that this

 8     had not happened on the 13th.  And now I'm going to put my own case to

 9     you.  Cerska and many other graves had multiple burials, and some of

10     these burials are the result of sanitisation of the terrain; that is to

11     say, no one can claim that all of these persons had been executed.

12     Rather, in different ways and at different points in time they ended up

13     in the very same grave.  What do you say to that?

14        A.   I would --

15        Q.   Does this kind of possibility exist?  Can it be ruled out?

16        A.   It's not black and white, again, and let me start with Kravica

17     execution or actually Glogova primary grave.  So inside this grave there

18     are not only victims from Kravica execution.  We know that other

19     people were -- other bodies, actually, were brought into this grave,

20     specifically one found in and around Vuk Karadzic school in Bratunac, the

21     ones from Konjevic Polje, a few of them, and mainly the ones picked up

22     along the road, Konjevic Polje-Bratunac road.  So those who were found

23     lying -- being dead next to the road.  And yes, we have such examples in

24     that grave.  Still, majority of them is related to Kravica execution.  We

25     have statements and we have people who testified here I think in this

Page 27046

 1     trial, saying that nobody dare to went into the woods to pick up these

 2     individuals who were killed there.  So this is one exception.  For the

 3     northern graves, let's put it this way, Branjevo, Orahovac, Petkovci,

 4     Kozluk execution points and primary graves, we don't have any evidence

 5     that people other than those executed are in those graves.

 6             Sanitation process did not really happen.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  We'll get to that, but when you say "executions,"

 8     those who were gathered by the road, were they also executed, shot, or

 9     were they killed in some other way?  Has this been confirmed?

10        A.   Of course it's difficult to confirm for every single individual

11     who was killed, how he was killed, especially after long time.  And we

12     know that in the area where we have the vast majority of surface remains

13     left on the ground, there were -- these people died of different causes.

14     I don't dispute that there was some combat casualties, some people we

15     know committed suicides because they didn't see any other way out, they

16     were walking over minefields and some of them died because of this cause,

17     and we also know that some of them were executed.  So we have different

18     causes of death in that area, but most of them - if not everybody - were

19     just left behind, they were never picked up from the area.  We know how

20     many of them were so far identified, and we have evidence only those

21     along the road, the main road, were collected and buried.

22        Q.   The ones who were killed in Kravica after the incident and after

23     the chaos, or rather, the ones who died there, do you also consider these

24     people to have been executed, been shot?

25             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure it is for the witness to testify to

Page 27047

 1     that.  It's also -- may be speculation.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.  But the witness has

 3     analysed all the documents and he is well aware of the fact that there

 4     was an incident there, but no kind of execution had been prepared or

 5     planned.  And what I'm interested in is whether he noticed that there was

 6     an incident that occurred in a chaotic situation, and this is

 7     significantly different from a planned and organised execution.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Please move on.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   So you said that no one dared go into the forest and to take

12     sanitation and hygiene measures.  What were the reasons for which they

13     didn't dare go there?

14        A.   That was a statement of the individual who was involved in this

15     process, in burial process, that they didn't dare to go there.  What we

16     know from documents, that there was a sweep operation in that area going

17     on after 13th of July, and many of them -- of the people were executed

18     during this operation.  Not in combat, they were executed.  And I'm

19     particularly referring to this 17 -- let's say -- let's put it 17 July or

20     16 July 1995 incident around Burnice area with this same young kid being

21     captured.  When they surrendered the house or the building where they

22     were hiding, you know, they killed, executed, many people there, the VRS

23     forces and especially I think the police forces were engaged in that

24     area, in sweeping that terrain.  And this is coming out of the witness

25     statement.  So a lot is going on in that area at that time, but mostly

Page 27048

 1     it's related to search of the terrain.  It's not done for sanitation

 2     purposes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Now, you say that one person said that they didn't

 4     dare go into the forest.  This had to do with taking sanitation and

 5     hygiene measures.  Was that person from the military or from the civilian

 6     protection force?

 7        A.   He's from the civilian protection force.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see 65 ter 3966 in the

10     e-court system.  And I believe that there should be a translation.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Please have a look at the order from Colonel Acamovic.  We can

13     see his signature or, rather, his name at the bottom.  It's dated the

14     20th of July and it says -- it says on the basis of the demonstrated need

15     and with the aim of locating and collecting human bodies and animal

16     carcasses in the zone of responsibility of the units and burying them,

17     internment, cremation, and of removing them, particularly in the areas of

18     Srebrenica and Zepa and also Kamenica and Snagovo, everything which could

19     be dangerous or harmful to the health of humans or animals preventing the

20     contamination of water, food, soil, and air, and thereby guarding against

21     contagious diseases of humans and animals.  And then it says I hereby

22     orders -- it issues an order according to which hygiene and sanitation

23     measures should be taken.  Do you think this was not done?  Do you think

24     this order wasn't carried out?  Do you have any information that

25     indicates that someone refused to abide by this order, or rather, to

Page 27049

 1     carry it out?

 2        A.   No, I have no such information, but when I was referring that no

 3     sanitation was done in area, I was referring to the all -- apparently all

 4     the mass graves were already closed.  We know that from aerial images.

 5     And especially because I think this one is -- I didn't catch the area

 6     which is this referring to.  But anyway, that would be my answer, yeah.

 7        Q.   Well, this is the area, the area of responsibility of certain

 8     brigades.  Do you know which brigades were deployed in the area of the

 9     events in question from the 12th and 13th and onwards.  Was the

10     Bratunac Brigade there, the Zvornik Brigade, the Milici Brigade, the

11     1st Bircani Brigade, do we agree on this?  The Milici and Bircani Brigade

12     didn't suffer a significant attack, but the Zvornik and Bratunac Brigade

13     did; isn't that correct?  And you can see Snagovo, you know where Snagovo

14     is.  You also know where Kamenica is; isn't that correct?  Right up to

15     Zvornik, the entire area.

16        A.   Yes, correct.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this document please be

19     admitted.

20             MS. WEST:  Mr. President.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

22             MS. WEST:  May I be heard on this?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

24             MS. WEST:  I object to the admission of this document.  This

25     witness first of all said he has no such information.  He went on to talk

Page 27050

 1     about testimony he had given earlier.  This last piece of information as

 2     to the whereabouts of these particular brigades, that is just general

 3     information that this witness knows from his investigations.  It has

 4     nothing to do with the substance of this document.  I don't think this

 5     witness has confirmed any of its content and has made no positive

 6     comments about it.  It doesn't fall within the Rules and I don't think it

 7     should be admitted.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I respond?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  But it's relevant to the part of evidence he gave

10     referring to his knowledge that there was no sanitisation in the area,

11     and you don't have any doubt as to the content -- authenticity of this

12     document, Ms. West?

13             MS. WEST:  As to your second question, no, I don't.  It's

14     relevant that -- he's saying I think the opposite of this document.  He's

15     not making any positive comment about this document.  He's not affirming

16     its content.  So -- and furthermore, he's an investigator.  If this were

17     a witness, a percipient witness from the time, I think that the Defence

18     could come much closer, but this isn't a document for this investigator

19     to get in.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Would you like to add anything, Mr. Robinson?

21             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, and I think maybe Mr. Tieger

22     could even help me with this, but I think it's been our practice that

23     when a document that's authenticity is not questioned directly

24     contradicts the testimony of a witness, even though the witness doesn't

25     confirm its contents, it's been admissible.

Page 27051

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, I'm sorry to interrupt.  I'll withdraw

 3     my objection.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  We'll receive it.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D2216, Your Honours.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   I'd like to ask you the following.  Do you agree that the source

 9     to determine the time and place of death of people found in the mass

10     graves should be the ICMP, the International Red Cross, the list of the

11     killed soldiers of the ABiH, and Court decisions certifying death, those

12     were the four sources.  Did you compare those four sources, did you

13     analyse them?

14        A.   I think I testified what was basis for my report in detail, and

15     that it came across the list of killed soldiers and court decisions as

16     well.  And also they were examined by demographic unit as well.  I'm

17     aware of such documents, yes.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now have a look at 1D4 --

20     5487 in the e-court system.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. Janc, I'll show you part of our analysis from our

23     investigation and also a result of the comparisons of certain texts, just

24     part of that.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could it please be enlarged.

Page 27052

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Please have a look at it.  These are examples found by various

 3     Defence teams.  They compared these examples.  In the first part of the

 4     list, you have the OTP list, the second part is the Army of BiH list, and

 5     the third part is the ICMP list.  So have a look at the name.

 6     Avdo Ademovic, father's name Taib, born the 20th of September, 1968.

 7     Date of death, according to Brunborg, 12th of July, 1995.  In the case of

 8     the ABiH, the date of death is the 1st of August, 1993.  I have the ID

 9     protocol, 1192, and it's the Cancari mass grave.

10             Then we have Dzemail Ahmetovic, number 2, father's name Dervis,

11     born in 1977, date of death, according to the Prosecution, is the 13th of

12     July.  According to the ABiH, it's the 10th of January, 1994.  The grave

13     is Liplje, ID protocol 11826/08?

14             The third in the list - I won't read out all the

15     names - according to the Prosecution died on the 14th of July.  According

16     to the ABiH on the 18th of August, 1994.  Protocol ID is 11635/8.

17     Kamenica mass grave.

18             And then number 4 you can see for yourself the date of death,

19     18th of August, 1994, and you can see the protocol ID, that column has

20     been filled in.  Number 5, 10th of January, 1994, is the time of death

21     and it's in Ravnice and Hodzici.  These are all mass graves.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the following page.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Here the first 2, 4, 6 names we can have a look at.  I won't read

25     all the names.  Everyone can see the names from Alic and onwards.  Time

Page 27053

 1     of death according to the Prosecution the 5th of June or August 1995.

 2     According to the ABiH, the 10th of January, 1994.  And then we have

 3     another Alic, also the 10th of January, 1994.  You have the protocol

 4     number and there's Hodzici Put grave number 5.  And then we have Cancari

 5     and Zeleni Jadar and Zeleni Jadar again and Liplje, then Glogova.  And in

 6     April 1993, the 17th of April, 1993, there's Bektic.  And then we have a

 7     little lower down -- have a look at Bektic, who was found on the Hodzici

 8     Snagovo 3 road.  He died on the 12th of December, 1992.  And then see

 9     Cerska 68/02 is the protocol number.  All these people --

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have a look at the next

11     page in fact.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   -- all these people were found in mass graves and none of them

14     was connected to Srebrenica 1995, let alone to the executions.  Please,

15     have a look at all of them, 1992, 1992, then we have 1994, then we have

16     1993, 1992, 1994, 1994, 1994, 1992, 1994, and then we have Cancari,

17     Ravnice, Kravica, Cancari, Cancari, Liplje, and so on.  I won't read out

18     all the names.  So we can see that they are in Liplje, Cancari, Hodzici,

19     Cancari 2, Cancari 3, Kamenica, Cancari 10, Glogova 2, Zeleni Jadar 5,

20     Liplje 2, Bljeceva 2, Liplje 2, Liplje 4, Kozluk.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Please have a look at the list.  It's all in 1994, sometimes in

24     1992, then sometimes 1993.  Omerovic is in 1993.  I won't read the name,

25     1993 found in Hodzici road 5.

Page 27054

 1             So, Mr. Janc --

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see the next page so that

 3     everyone can see it.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   -- the Defence claim is as follows.  In that area people killed

 6     for three and a half years, 44 months, in fact.  Those who died in enemy

 7     territory were buried in mass graves and that concerned the Serbs and the

 8     Muslims.  In 1993 the Serbs discovered about 50 of their mass graves,

 9     where the Muslims had buried Serbs, and there were five to fifty corpses

10     there.  There were between -- there were 1.260 Serbian victims up until

11     April 1993.  On the other hand, up until that point in time, Muslims were

12     also dying and almost exclusively on Serbian territory, and they were

13     buried on Serbian territory up until July 1995.  And in July 1995 there

14     were a lot of people who were killed and they were buried in mass graves.

15     If you haven't found individual graves of the thousands who were killed

16     in the combat, then they were buried in mass graves.  So how can we

17     identify or associate mass graves with these executions by shooting?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the following page,

19     please.  That's the last one in this document.

20             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, if I can just interject here.  If

21     Mr. Karadzic can help us in regard to the source of this Army of BiH

22     list.  He said it was put together by Defence teams, but if we could have

23     the source of the list, maybe an ERN, and when it was put together, it

24     will be more helpful.

25             JUDGE KWON:  That's fair enough.

Page 27055

 1             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We have several lists from the

 3     ABiH.  After the break, we will tender the list that contains the names,

 4     these names, and the dates.  The ABiH made a list of the men that it

 5     lost.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Then let's proceed.

 7             Are you able to answer the question, Mr. Janc?

 8             THE WITNESS:  Let me see.  It was long.  Let me comment on this

 9     list first, especially ABiH list.  I know that this was examined by

10     demographic unit again.  If I'm not mistaken, this list was compiled in

11     2004 sometimes by the ABiH, so which is long time after the incident,

12     after the Srebrenica event.  And I think the credibility of this list was

13     questioned, especially as to the methodology, how it was compiled.  And

14     with such lists, it's always important for what purposes it is compiled.

15     And I think it was concluded -- no, it would be speculation, but I know

16     that they didn't find that list reliable, I mean demographic unit, in

17     relation to ABiH list for some purposes.  So that's why I still consider

18     all those people found in these graves as being victims of Srebrenica

19     killings, Srebrenica event.

20             JUDGE KWON:  In your knowledge, for what purpose were the ABiH

21     documents filed -- compiled?

22             THE WITNESS:  I don't have exact knowledge for what purpose.  We

23     have to take a look into that.  But I know that it's sometimes important

24     for relatives as to when certain person died, to get certain benefits

25     from the government.  So -- and this might be compiled for that purposes.

Page 27056

 1     So I don't claim that.  It's just my opinion, what I think was the case

 2     in this list, but we would need to take a look into this issue further.

 3             And these individuals found in these mass graves, I would say,

 4     you know, it would actually contradict their list because I didn't go

 5     through all of them or -- to check the autopsy reports and photographs

 6     and everything how those people and where they were found, for example.

 7     Analysis can be done, I'm sure, to see exactly how those people and where

 8     they were found within graves.  And if they are mixed with the portion of

 9     people which came from the secondary grave, it would be unlikely that one

10     body would somehow squeeze into the huge pile of graves, which we know

11     were exhumed from the primary site.  So analysis can be done on every

12     single case to see how they were found and where.  If they're from some

13     other incidents, one would expect these people being in this grave in

14     some separate location because they were brought from somewhere else, for

15     example, and would be put on the top or on the bottom or would be in one

16     pile, but not within the grave scattered.  Yeah.  This would more show,

17     making this analysis, that this list is not reliable because it shows

18     quite opposite.  People are found in the grave where we have Srebrenica

19     victims.  In the shape they are found we will be able to conclude, yes,

20     they might have been killed with the same incident, with the same

21     execution.  So this way would be very easy to exclude them as being any

22     other than Srebrenica victim.

23        Q.   Please tell me, do you believe that the ABiH made a list of the

24     losses it sustained on a daily basis?

25        A.   No, I'm not aware of that list.

Page 27057

 1        Q.   Very well.  Did your demographic unit come to the conclusion that

 2     the ABiH lists were not reliable, or did they conclude that they were not

 3     suitable for the Prosecution thesis?

 4        A.   Not really -- and I'm not sure now if these names are coming --

 5     dates exactly -- especially are coming from one list or from several ABiH

 6     lists.  I know that there were several attempts by the OTP to get those

 7     lists from ABiH army and those sources.  So I'm not sure if this is one

 8     or two or even more sources combined together.  But they did make these

 9     inquiries with them, also looking into the methodology and what was the

10     basis and everything.  But I cannot comment on their conclusions, no.

11        Q.   Could the Prosecution be of assistance, given the ERN number that

12     clearly shows that the Prosecution included this document in the EDS?

13        A.   As I can see ERN on top of it, so it should be a Prosecution

14     document, yes.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could it be admitted, please?

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes and -- but to enhance the probative value of

17     this document, probably the Defence needs to tender the ABiH list

18     themselves later on.

19             Yes, this will be given number, and next Defence exhibit.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D2217, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Do we need to put it under seal?

22                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

23             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. West, I don't think so, but if you could give

24     some guidance.

25             MS. WEST:  We are looking up this ERN right now.  Maybe after the

Page 27058

 1     break I can provide some more information as to whether it should be

 2     under seal or not.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Well, if it should be under seal -- I think -- my

 4     information was that this document was broadcast, and if so we need to

 5     redact it now.  The feed --

 6             MS. WEST:  Yeah --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  -- the video part.

 8             MS. WEST:  Well, for sure I can -- I mean, I see that there are

 9     protocol IDs on it related to names, so I think there's going to be some

10     issue here.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson.

12             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, yes, Mr. President.  Unless this has been

13     admitted publicly in another case which we don't really know right now, I

14     think it's probably better to put it under seal pending the disposition

15     of our motion.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, let's put it provisionally under seal and we'll

17     come back to that in a more comprehensive way together with other

18     documents and redact the video part where this document was broadcast.

19             Yes, we'll take a break for half an hour and resume at 11.00.

20             Just one matter.  To be sure, Mr. Tieger, we are not hearing

21     KDZ320 this week?

22             MR. TIEGER:  That's correct.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

24                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

Page 27059

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  Dr. Karadzic has asked if the

 3     Chamber would consider allowing him to have this entire session to

 4     complete his cross-examination of this witness, and in support of that

 5     we'd like to point out that although he was led viva voce, the

 6     introduction of his reports into evidence creates more material than what

 7     was covered in the direct examination.  And he will make every effort to

 8     keep his examination focused and also keep within the time-frames for the

 9     next two witnesses so that we can complete all of the witnesses this

10     week, but he would like to have that additional time with this witness.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Speaking for myself, that should be fair enough as

12     long as he remains on relevant issues that should be dealt with this

13     witness properly.

14             Yes, I see the nodding of my colleagues.  Please proceed,

15     Mr. Karadzic.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Mr. Janc, when in your view did the first executions take place?

19     When was the first execution after the fall of Srebrenica?

20        A.   It's difficult to be precise, but let me focus on the first,

21     biggest execution which took place.  It was, in my opinion, definitely

22     Kravica execution.

23        Q.   Thank you.  That was towards the evening on the 13th of July;

24     right?

25        A.   Yeah, it would start around 5.00 p.m.

Page 27060

 1        Q.   When you say it began, isn't it true it also ended quickly, just

 2     after 5.00?  It was described as an incident and general chaos.  Did you

 3     accept that description of the event as it occurred after the rifle was

 4     grabbed and the Serbian policeman was killed?

 5        A.   Yes, evidence show that it started with that incident.  For how

 6     long it lasted later on, it's not really known, but it went for a while.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  In your corrigendum you confirmed that some of the

 8     people found in the mass grave that contained also the people killed at

 9     Kravica should not have been linked with this execution site; correct?

10        A.   Yes, that's correct.

11        Q.   Thank you.  But you said that most of the remainder of the 1200

12     people, most of the 1200 people described as victims from Kravica should

13     be associated with the warehouse at Kravica.  How many people were

14     captured at Kravica and how many were killed in that incident?

15        A.   It's difficult to give you a precise number, but as I concluded

16     in my report vast majority would be still related to Kravica incident,

17     those found in Glogova primary and related secondary graves.  When I was

18     trying to put up the figure how many others than Kravica related would be

19     in Glogova grave, I was counting those picked up along the road around

20     Bratunac school, Konjevic Polje, I came up to figure around 80 people.

21     On top of it, there is 100 people, around 100 people, also killed at

22     Bratunac stadium.  We don't have clear evidence where those were buried.

23     But --

24             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I'm concerned about the way in which

25     this line of questioning proceeds.  I wonder whether this witness is a

Page 27061

 1     proper witness to deal with these matters.  That may open the Prosecution

 2     to explore with the investigators as to the matters that was dealt with

 3     in the indictment, which we prohibited.  Do you have any observation,

 4     Mr. Robinson?

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, Your Honour, I agree with you that it's a

 6     slippery slope for us; on the other hand, the identity of the bodies that

 7     were found in the mass graves and where they were killed is something

 8     pretty directly relevant to this witness's testimony.  So perhaps

 9     Dr. Karadzic can focus his questions more narrowly on that.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Robinson.  Please advise Mr. Karadzic

11     to that effect.

12             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   I'll say very briefly, Mr. Janc.  On the photographs on the

15     footage and according to the information we received, we see that at

16     Sandici and along the road there were from several dozen to 200, 250

17     prisoners.  But according to our information at Kravica there were only

18     150.  So this figure was multiplied practically by 10.  I'm just asking:

19     You did not verify these figures, you just accepted them from previous

20     documents; right ?

21        A.   No.  What we can see actually on the video is not everything what

22     happened in the area unfortunately because it's just a certain part of

23     the day what is there.  So we don't have any evidence as to what happened

24     during the entire incident -- actually video evidence.  And from other

25     evidence we know that many or people were brought into the Kravica

Page 27062

 1     warehouse.  We have survivors from this site saying how many people were

 2     brought there in different instances into this warehouse and then

 3     executed.  And we know from the video that the one who surrendered, for

 4     example, we identified these people.  That not all of them who

 5     surrendered at that time were killed at Kravica.  Some of them are found

 6     in northern execution sites, Pilica, Orahovac, so they were transported

 7     somewhere else.  So I would not even conclude that those we can see on

 8     video, on Petrovic video being at Sandici, that they were all killed at

 9     Kravica.  Because it's clearly we have evidence that some of them ended

10     up somewhere else.  We know that buses came, also buses, and some of them

11     were transported somewhere else.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Would you be more inclined to rely on the aerial

13     photograph of the people that can be seen there at the time around 2.00

14     or 3.00 between Konjevic Polje and Kravica, including Sandici?  Would you

15     rely on that and the information as to the number of these prisoners?

16        A.   Definitely aerial image would be one source of those -- of

17     information.  The problem with aerial image is it's always -- they are

18     not focused enough for us to be able to count how many individuals is

19     there.  It's just an estimate and it might be fairly wrong estimate.  So

20     you can't really estimate from those pictures how many people is gathered

21     there.

22        Q.   Concerning what you said, that the first executions on a larger

23     scale took place on the 13th of July, I would like to show you a telegram

24     from General Tolimir -- I think this is P4762.

25             Can you recall that telegram where General Tolimir notifies on

Page 27063

 1     the 13th of July that there is enough place for 800 prisoners at Sjemece

 2     near the farms?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Is it not P4769?  65 ter 1998.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Possibly.  Maybe I misnoted it.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Can you recall that?

 7        A.   Yes, I do recall that document, yes.

 8        Q.   Did you know in the area of which brigades did most deaths of

 9     Serbian and Muslim soldiers occur?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Do you agree that the Bratunac and Zvornik Brigades were the most

12     exposed to attacks, they had the most contact with the column?

13        A.   If you are now referring to time after the fall of Srebrenica,

14     then my answer would be yes.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we call P3975, map number 5,

17     page 14.  Thank you.  Could we zoom in.  If I may ask the usher to help

18     Mr. Janc mark the map.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Could you please mark Pobudje, Buljim, and that whole area where

21     you established that there were the most surface remains unburied.  Could

22     you put a circle around the area of Buljim and Pobudje.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Can you not zoom in a bit further?  Can you do that?

24             THE WITNESS:  Maybe if you can zoom --

25             JUDGE KWON:  One step further.

Page 27064

 1             THE WITNESS:  Yeah, one step, it would be easier.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  We can do once again, once more, and then just -- I

 3     think that can be done -- that will do.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   The column started from Susnjari and Jaglici.  Could you now put

 6     a circle around what is called Pobudje.  There's Buljim and Pobudje.

 7        A.   Yes.  Let me mark it as P.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  To the best of your knowledge, how long did the

 9     column spend in that area?  When did it leave?

10        A.   The bulk of the column, I think a few days.  But there were

11     certain individuals that remained in this area for quite a long time up

12     until 17th, 18th, or 20th of July.  So not everybody were passing through

13     at the same time so they split it.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Do we agree that this -- that the bulk of the column

15     left this area maybe even on the first day and moved further on, outside

16     the area of Pobudje?

17        A.   I think they spent, the most of them, at least one night in this

18     area but I'm not sure.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Did you see any report from the intelligence service

20     of the BH army of the 17th of July, saying that on the 16th of July

21     10.000 fighting men from the 28th Division arrived to the free territory,

22     so they successfully passed through and reached free territory.  Did you

23     see that report?

24        A.   Yes, I do remember that report.

25        Q.   Thank you.  If that is the bulk of the column which should have

Page 27065

 1     passed through on the 16th, there were between 13th and 15th, 15.000 in

 2     all and 10.000 managed to arrive at the free territory, can we consider

 3     that between the 12th and the 16th the bulk of the column were between

 4     this circle you marked and Nezuk, the separation line?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us, what is the meaning of these green

 7     lines that run straight in certain sections and sometimes meander along

 8     the river?  Are these areas of responsibility of two brigades, the

 9     Bratunac Brigade to the south and the Zvornik Brigade to the north?

10        A.   It's a little bit difficult for me to comment on this because I

11     am not originator of this map.  But those green lines would correspond,

12     to my knowledge, as to where the boundaries of those two brigades were,

13     yes.  If they're exact, I'm not sure.

14        Q.   Could you now please put the date and your initials on the map.

15             JUDGE KWON:  28th of March.

16             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

18             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, Mr. President, I did some quick calculations

19     in connection with the schedule.  I simply wanted to note - and the Court

20     may already be aware of this - that if everything proceeded perfectly as

21     scheduled without any re-direct or without any administrative matters, we

22     would still conclude at the end of the week with only 15 minutes to

23     spare.  That's cutting it pretty close it seems to me.  So at a minimum,

24     maybe the Court wants to consider more, I think we have to conclude this

25     witness with his -- with any re-direct examination by the end of this

Page 27066

 1     session, and the Court may want to consider whether it's willing to cut

 2     it that close in light of its previous concerns.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Having heard Mr. Tieger's submission, please

 4     try to conclude your cross-examination as early as possible,

 5     Mr. Karadzic.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The only thing missing is how much

 7     time is necessary for re-direct.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I take it you have re-direct?

 9             MS. WEST:  I do and I think it will be five minutes, but at least

10     five minutes.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Try your best, Mr. Karadzic.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will.  Thank you.

13             Could this map be admitted and then we need to turn to the next

14     page.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D2218, Your Honours.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Next page, please, of this same

18     document, P3975.

19             JUDGE KWON:  You would like to see the next map, Mr. Karadzic?

20             THE ACCUSED:  Yes.

21             JUDGE KWON:  It should have a separate 65 ter number.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But I think we already admitted the

23     next page too under the same P number, P4770, 65 ter 4799.  65 ter 4779,

24     page 15 and 16.  I thought it was in the same exhibit.  P4770, admitted

25     yesterday.  I saw it with my own eyes.  Yes.

Page 27067

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   You are familiar with this and you marked these surface remains;

 3     correct?

 4        A.   Yes, I'm aware of this map, but it was not me who put these dots

 5     on this map.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that a representative of the civilian

 7     protection who said he did not dare go into the forests was in this area

 8     where we have the most surface remains?

 9        A.   Yes, correct.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Now, Mr. Janc, in this area of Pobudje, which was the

11     area of the Bratunac Brigade, the bulk of the column numbering 13- to

12     15.000 people stayed much less time than in the rest of this area until

13     the separation line, and 500, maybe 600 surface remains remained

14     unburied.  In the rest of the territory in this sector were the greatest

15     losses, both Serb and Muslim.  Why didn't we find there more surface

16     remains than in Pobudje?  What happened to them?

17        A.   Now what happened to them -- to who?  To surface remains which we

18     don't know if they were ever there.  What we know from the exhumations is

19     how many of them were found at which location, and the majority is in

20     Pobudje area.  Then we have a small cluster around Snagovo, and then we

21     have around 60 of them found in Baljkovica area.  So we know in

22     Baljkovica there was a battle when they were trying -- the Muslim column

23     was trying to break through.  Corridor was later opened, and still we did

24     find many of them just on the ground.  The majority, of course, is in

25     Pobudje area, and it's difficult to me to say where those are because I

Page 27068

 1     don't know if there were any at the time there.

 2        Q.   Well, that's the problem, Mr. Janc.  Most of the unburied remains

 3     were found in the area of responsibility of the Bratunac Brigade.

 4     However, most of the dead are in the area of the Zvornik Brigade.

 5     There's no denying that.  That's where the fiercest fighting took place,

 6     went on for four days.  Where are the casualties from the fighting in the

 7     area of responsibility of the Zvornik Brigade?

 8        A.   Definitely we have 60 of them there, on this map.  They're marked

 9     and they're part of my report as being surface remains.  Those were never

10     buried.  Then where are the others if they were, I don't know where they

11     are.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know -- or rather, did you see this

13     information, namely, that the Zvornik Brigade that was in shelters, in

14     trenches, behind heavy weaponry, sustained losses between 40 and 50 in a

15     single day?  What is your assumption then?  The Muslims who are out in

16     the open and who were advancing, how many casualties had they sustained?

17     What is the usual ratio, 1:7?  1:8?  Isn't that right?

18        A.   It's more for military expert than me, so I would not be able to

19     answer this question because it would be a pure speculation.

20        Q.   All right.  But can you tell us the following then -- actually,

21     could you please take a pen and could you mark this, where the

22     Bratunac Brigade was and the rest of the area up to Nezuk.

23        A.   You would like me first to mark the area of Bratunac Brigade?

24        Q.   Please do, yes, where Pobudje is -- or Pobudje itself, whatever

25     you prefer.

Page 27069

 1        A.   I'd say this and mark it with P would be Pobudje area.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Do we agree that the rest of the area on the other

 3     side of the river, all the way up to Nezuk, is the area of responsibility

 4     of the Zvornik Brigade?  Could you please put a circle there, including

 5     the area between the Bratunac and Zvornik Brigades, including the surface

 6     remains.

 7        A.   Let me put Z next to it.

 8        Q.   Now, Mr. Janc, isn't it obvious that many more surface remains

 9     were found at Pobudje where they spent a night and half a day rather than

10     in the area of the Zvornik Brigade, where they spent four days in the

11     fiercest fighting?

12        A.   They also spent many more days - let me emphasize this first - I

13     mean Pobudje area -- not the majority perhaps, but many people were still

14     there up to 20th of July, so it's seven, eight days even.  And yeah, we

15     have less of them found on the surface in Bratunac area and Snagovo area

16     than Pobudje area.

17        Q.   Were less found in the area of the Zvornik Brigade, as shown by

18     this map?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Do we agree that the secret service of the BH army

21     reported that between 13- to 15.000 men from the column passed already on

22     the 16th?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please put the date there and your

25     initials.

Page 27070

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, as Exhibit D2219.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             Can we now have 1D5493.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   This is my case, Mr. Janc, that there were more deaths in the

 8     area of the Zvornik Brigade and less surface remains.  So that means that

 9     while the terrain was cleared up they were buried.  Apart from these mass

10     graves, were any other graves found in which those who got killed during

11     those four days in the area of responsibility of the Zvornik Brigade had

12     been buried?

13        A.   Yes, indeed.  There are several graves, but they're all small

14     ones in this area and in Baljkovica area.  You will find them in my

15     report, and I would attribute those people to the incidents to this

16     fight, whatever happened in this Baljkovica area.  And I will just list

17     the graves --

18        Q.   I beg your pardon.  Can we please hear whether this can be

19     broadcast?  Actually, just in case, perhaps it shouldn't be broadcast.

20             Do go on, Witness.

21                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

22             THE WITNESS:  Yes, those graves are Brzlog [phoen] grave, where

23     we have five individuals identified; and Motovska Kosa, four; and then

24     Krizevici, nine.  So these are three main ones.  Then we have some

25     individual graves as well, like Seher-Osmaci, from that area.

Page 27071

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Did you find a grave with hundreds of casualties from

 3     this fighting?

 4        A.   Not yet, but many of them are still on the missing list.  So

 5     maybe in the future there will be one of such grave discovered.

 6        Q.   And maybe they were buried in the existing graves during the

 7     clearing up of the terrain?

 8        A.   I would exclude that because evidence shows that they were opened

 9     and closed in very short period of time.  I think the last one is closed

10     in -- on 17th of July.  In order to go around the terrain and collect all

11     the bodies, it would take a lot of effort and -- to bring them back to

12     the -- to those mass graves, it would take much more time than just one

13     day to exhume -- to make the hole for or to prepare the grave for bodies

14     and to put them there.

15        Q.   Do we have any aerial images taken during a single day or several

16     days?

17        A.   I would need to consult them exactly, but I know they have -- we

18     had them from several days, different locations several days, or even for

19     one location several days.  But I'm not sure.  I would need to go through

20     them again.

21        Q.   Thank you.  If Colonel Acamovic on the 20th of July issued an

22     order for burials as part of sanitisation, would they have been completed

23     by the 27th of July?

24        A.   No, an order itself, it doesn't mean that sanitisation happened.

25     You know, I would rather, in this respect, see the reports about what's

Page 27072

 1     going on on terrain.  Because order might be issued and changed later the

 2     day with another report.  So it means nothing happened in ground with

 3     that issue, so it's more important for my purposes to review the reports

 4     of the brigade, of the people, what were doing on the ground.  So order

 5     itself, it doesn't mean that this what is ordered really happened.

 6             So for how many days it would be enough to collect bodies from

 7     the area, I don't know.  We don't have any indication that that happened.

 8     We don't have witnesses who would testify about that or who would give us

 9     a statement.  And I would imagine if this happened on the terrain, many

10     people would be involved.  And all those years we would for sure get

11     information from these people, what happened, what they were doing, and

12     where did they bury these people, these bodies which were collected from

13     the ground.  And that's indication, you know, which is missing in the

14     whole story.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Janc, in your previous answer you said the

16     graves we are talking about were opened and closed in very short period

17     of time.  I think last one is closed on the 7th of July.  It's page 46,

18     line 25 to page 47, line 2.  Do you remember having said that?

19             THE WITNESS:  Yes, but if I said 7, it should be 17th --

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I'm sorry, 17th of July.  What did you mean by

21     being "closed"?  And what evidence do you have in terms of the graves

22     being closed?

23             THE WITNESS:  Yes, Your Honour.  This is coming out from the

24     aerial images where we can see that the soil is put over that -- that

25     excavation was done at the grave-site, and I think that I'm getting

Page 27073

 1     information from the expert archaeologists, from their reports, saying

 2     the grave by that time was closed.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  And do you have evidence that was opened again and

 4     closed again in a short time?  I meant to say that do you have evidence

 5     that excludes the fact that graves were opened and closed shortly after

 6     the initial burial?

 7             THE WITNESS:  We have evidence from later on, two months later,

 8     when the reburials took place.  And you can see the disturbances are,

 9     again, at the same spots where the primary graves were disposed.  So --

10             JUDGE KWON:  Do you rely on rather the archaeologist and

11     pathologist or anthropologist evidence?

12             THE WITNESS:  Yes, correct, and they did take the aerial images

13     into consideration in their reports.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

15             Mr. Karadzic, by now you have spent the same amount of time as

16     the Prosecution used in -- for their examination-in-chief.  When I told

17     you that it may be fair enough for you to use the whole session, I

18     thought I was of the opinion that you would still have an hour left.  But

19     given the situation -- and I have the feeling that you can conclude in 20

20     minutes' time from now.  Let us see how it evolves.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With your leave, I would like to

22     rely on Ms. West's estimate, that she'd need five minutes for her

23     re-direct.  So I'd like to avail myself of all that time.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Also have in mind that the forthcoming two

25     witnesses, whether we can finish them all by tomorrow.

Page 27074

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll do my best because this

 2     witness is an important witness, a very important witness.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, indeed.  Please proceed.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

 5        Q.   Mr. Janc, do you have any proof of that order being changed?  Was

 6     another one issued replacing it?

 7        A.   I don't have any information right now in this regard.  I don't

 8     even remember it from top of my head.  I would need to take a look to

 9     documents.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Do you have any proof of the technical services not

11     carrying out the orders of a colonel?

12             JUDGE KWON:  That's not for the witness, Mr. Karadzic.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I meant on the basis of what he was

14     concluding, that perhaps that had not happened.  But all right, let us

15     see whether we agree that the aerial images show the period between the

16     7th and the 27th of July.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Do you have aerial images from the 17th until the 27th of July

19     taken on a daily basis?

20        A.   No, we don't have them on a daily basis, for sure not.  And I'm

21     not quite sure how many of them we have.  Because I know that we

22     requested several times for more and more, and we were provided with

23     additional aerial images, also for other areas, not only for these mass

24     graves.  So -- but to give you an exact answer, I would need to take a

25     look to analyse them again.

Page 27075

 1        Q.   Thank you.  As for the area of the Zvornik Brigade, did you get a

 2     single aerial image between the 17th and the 27th of July?

 3        A.   Same as before, I would need to check.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  All right.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page now of

 6     this document that we have before us.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Do you see this in the third paragraph -- no, fourth paragraph,

 9     roughly ten dead and 20 wounded persons.  Some of those who got killed

10     and wounded were soldiers carrying weapons, and then a bit further down

11     it says that a group of 200 to 300 people split in two.  And then we see

12     that 50 people were hiding in the grass.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at the next page,

14     please.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Please take a look at the next page where it says that they

17     killed three of their own, believing that they were Chetniks.  No one

18     believed them.  One of them was shouting and saying, "I'm a Muslim, I'm a

19     Muslim," and nobody believed him.  They shot them.  And then a Muslim

20     unit confirmed that indeed these had been their people, and then there's

21     a reference to 30 bodies in the fourth line, and then towards the bottom

22     of the last page he saw a man who tried to commit suicide.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page now.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Do you see the third paragraph, ten people who did not wish to

Page 27076

 1     surrender committed suicide.  I saw them lie down and put hand-grenades

 2     under their stomachs.  They blew themselves up.

 3             From the statements of persons who managed to get through in the

 4     column, did you take into account all of these losses?  Did you locate

 5     the places of death and the places where they were buried?

 6        A.   For some of them, yes, it's true, but not for all of them.  And

 7     one of those examples is the witness who testified here in January, and I

 8     was going over this issue about the bodies being seen by him as being

 9     killed and they were found on the surface.  So I can run a search for

10     these people right now if you want, and we can check where they would

11     appear, if these are the ones he saw they were killed because he was, I

12     think, talking - this witness we have in front of us - was talking in

13     general terms.

14        Q.   Thank you.  This witness says that three Muslims were killed by

15     the Muslims themselves because there was this confusion.  They believed

16     that they were Serbs.  Then ten committed suicide.  Also he says that 30

17     were killed in combat, so that is 43 at least.  Did you get the names of

18     these persons from him or at least the names of those who he had known?

19        A.   I'm sure investigators asked him about the names during the

20     interview, and if he listed those names they would appear here.  Like if

21     we go down to the last paragraph, he names the people who surrendered.

22     It's just the fact that the people, they don't know sometimes everybody

23     and that's why they were not -- they were unable to provide any names.

24     And it's many of those statements in OTP records, and I can say that I

25     haven't reviewed all of them systematically in a way to extract the

Page 27077

 1     individuals from these statements and to compare them against the ICMP

 2     list.  But whenever I did that, my conclusions and the ICMP

 3     identifications were corroborated.  So it fit the story of the survivors

 4     or witnesses.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Can we have these conclusions of yours, this material

 6     that includes the names that you received from the witness and then

 7     collated?

 8        A.   Yes, I know that the biggest such analysis was done in

 9     preparation within the OTP to submit the Popovic final brief.  At that

10     point in time I was engaged in checking the names which were listed by

11     different survivors, different witnesses, who testified in that case.

12     And I was corroborating or trying to find where they were found.  And

13     there is such list.  I don't know in what shape it was produced within

14     the final brief.  I don't have it with me right now, but I think it's

15     traceable.

16        Q.   Thank you.  How do you know they were not buried?  How do you

17     know that they were surface remains?  These persons that this man had

18     seen with his very own eyes, 43 dead at least?

19        A.   It's always difficult to establish if you don't have names, you

20     know.  You have to have name in order to establish where certain

21     individual was found or buried.  I mean, instances - and there is many of

22     such statements like this one where people would say, Yes, I saw many of

23     them being killed in ambush, and they don't list any names, it's always

24     difficult to prove who those people are and where they are found.

25        Q.   But if they were buried during the sanitisation process, are they

Page 27078

 1     added to the number of persons who were executed?  Look at page number

 2     2 -- and then from there onwards he sees 30 bodies, a few persons killed

 3     this way or that way, so none of that is in Pobudje.  It's in the area of

 4     responsibility of the Zvornik Brigade.  Where were they buried?

 5        A.   You know, we see that we have in Baljkovica area, we have at

 6     least 60 surface remains.  Perhaps those are the ones or some of the ones

 7     are the ones.  So I don't know because I don't have name.  If we

 8     speculate.  For example, further, you know, like you say that they would

 9     end up in mass grave, yes, if this is the case, if this can be proven, if

10     we can find one -- one individual which was actually on -- killed and

11     named by one of those survivors and he ended up in mass grave, that

12     person would appear in my report as being found in the mass grave.

13             So -- but first we have to establish.  So far we haven't.

14     Whenever I've checked and cross-checked different names, they fit the

15     story of the survivors.  For example, one saw the killing in Pobudje

16     area, named these people, and I found to be still there.  One, for

17     example, witnesses the execution.  And yes, it was corroborated the

18     people who he named were executed there or were found in mass grave.  So

19     it's always important you have names.

20        Q.   Mr. Janc, I believe that the Defence is in a better position from

21     that point of view.  You have to prove that rather than say that all of

22     those who are in mass graves had been executed.  And now let the Defence

23     make an effort and disprove that.  You have to prove that that is the

24     case.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Actually, Excellencies, you do not

Page 27079

 1     admit such statements, do you?

 2             JUDGE KWON:  No, we will not admit this document.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             1D5492, could we have that, please.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  We moved already, but, Mr. Robinson,

 6     what was the reason why we shouldn't have broadcast the previous

 7     document, the witness statement?

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  I don't know of any, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. West.

10             MS. WEST:  [Microphone not activated]  I don't know of any

11     either.  Mr. Karadzic --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Microphone.

14             MS. WEST:  He's about to use another statement.  We will check

15     right now as to whether it should be broadcast.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like this to be public, but

18     I wanted to allow the Prosecution to say whether it had to be

19     confidential or not.  Let's now have a look at page 3 of the statement.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   In the third paragraph can you see that it says that there were

22     about 15.000 of them in total?  And then we'll scroll down a bit, and in

23     the fourth paragraph it says that fire was opened and that at that

24     location on a hill they arrived at, about 500 people were killed.  Did

25     you question this witness to find out the names of the people that he was

Page 27080

 1     with?  One should assume that he knew at least some of them?

 2        A.   Personally me, I did not.  But maybe it comes out from the

 3     statement itself, what did he say or if he asked -- he was asked this

 4     question, if he listed any of those people there.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Let's scroll further down -- in fact, can we see the

 6     next page.  In the fourth paragraph 2.000 people are referred to, mixed

 7     civilians and soldiers.  And in paragraph 5 it says there I found about

 8     50 bodies.  So that's quite different from the first site.  It says some

 9     still of them alive.  The Serbs had stabbed them with knives in the

10     stomach and so on.  So in total that is over 500.  Can we have a look at

11     the next page.  Five or killed in a minefield.  Can we have a look at the

12     next page, at the end of this largest paragraph, paragraph 3.  Five were

13     killed in a minefield, two survived, Kadir and Huso, and so on.  This

14     person mentioned several hundred people whom he saw and who he saw were

15     killed.

16             Did your team manage to identify the people concerned and did

17     your team exclude them from the ICMP list?  Did they determine where they

18     were buried?  Did your team determine what their names were?  Was

19     anything established in relation to these victims?

20        A.   I'm not aware of any such analysis being done regarding this, but

21     when we are talking about statements like this one, when witnesses have

22     been referring to certain amount of people being killed, we have to be

23     very conservative as to their figures because it's not very easy to

24     assess, especially under conditions they were under, to assess how many

25     people would in reality be killed or how many people they observed at

Page 27081

 1     certain location.  I know from my experience as a professional, as a

 2     police officer, there is a special training provided for police officers

 3     to assess how many people is gathered at the same place, even with

 4     that -- with their training people will do mistakes.  So we have to be

 5     careful with the numbers, but to, yeah, answer your question, I don't

 6     have any knowledge of this analysis being done.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  But in criminal legal affairs you agree that when

 8     we're dealing with unlawful killings, such matters should be matters that

 9     are determined beyond any reasonable doubt?

10             MS. WEST:  Your Honour --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Also not for the witness.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This witness is a policeman who was

13     involved in investigations.  So I don't see why this question is not

14     appropriate.

15             Let's have a look at 1D5491.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Are you familiar with this letter?  It's an exchange between the

18     Government of Republika Srpska and Mr. Masovic.  The next document is his

19     response.  Were you familiar with this?

20        A.   I'm not sure that I'm familiar.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have a look at the next

23     page.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   This is what Masovic said in response to this request made by

Page 27082

 1     Mr. Spaic.  Mr. Spaic requested this be provided and this is what Amor

 2     Masovic says.  He says the institute has information - it's in 2008 - the

 3     institute has information about 3.214 identified victims of genocide

 4     buried in the Memorial Complex and 168 identified victims buried in

 5     several local graveyards.  And then it says -- let's see what it says in

 6     English.

 7             [In English] "We also have information that the DNA laboratory in

 8     Tuzla has completed the preliminary identification of about 2.000 other

 9     victims that have still not been identified by their next of kin."

10             [Interpretation] So 3.200 were identified on the basis of DNA and

11     on the basis of family members, and 2.000 others were identified on the

12     basis of DNA analysis but they hadn't been identified by their family

13     members.  Were you aware of the fact that that was the situation in 2008?

14        A.   I think I was and I think it should be still the same situation.

15     Perhaps the numbers would be different now, much more of them identified

16     and buried than only waiting for final identification, but that's the

17     process.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this document be admitted?

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D2220, Your Honours.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   On page 63 you said that in Cerska twins were found.  Were they

25     identified and were they being searched for?

Page 27083

 1        A.   I didn't say that in Cerska grave were -- the twins were found,

 2     but I was testifying about is that we most probably have the twins, one

 3     found in Cerska grave, the other in one of the Hodzici grave, but we have

 4     only one identification.  It's always difficult for the ICMP to identify

 5     such cases because only one DNA sample would be retrieved.  So that DNA

 6     sample would apply for both brothers, for both twins.  In such situations

 7     there is only anthropological way of distinguishing the two.  And that's

 8     what is actually done.  The process, when it's done -- the identification

 9     done by the ICMP, it's not the final step.  They sent their findings back

10     to the pathologists, who are then making the final determination of the

11     identification.

12        Q.   Thank you.  On page 70 you confirmed that in relation to

13     Mr. Parsons you confirmed that there was a certain amount of confusion,

14     disorder, in the graves.  And you clarified the confusion in favour of

15     the Prosecution's claim.  Don't you think this was somewhat difficult

16     challenge?

17        A.   No, it was not a challenge at all, and it was not in a

18     Prosecution favour.  I was just trying in a way to defend my report, to

19     find -- to present that what was stated here by Mr. Parsons, it's not

20     entirely true.  For example, because he wasn't aware exactly where such

21     individuals were found because he hasn't examined those site codes in

22     such detail, which was done by myself.

23        Q.   Thank you.  You were shown a list and -- in fact, did you notice

24     that the same names and surnames appear in our area.  We're not very

25     imaginative when it comes to giving names, the same names are often used.

Page 27084

 1        A.   Yes, that's what I came across, even you would have situations

 2     where you have first and last name the same, also father's name would be

 3     the same.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  On pages 71 to page 72, Ms. West showed you the name

 5     of a certain Nusret whose little daughter was the subject of testimony.

 6     Was it confirmed for certain that that was that Nusret?

 7        A.   I would say most certainly it is because it has the first and

 8     last name the same, father's name the same.  I found two individuals with

 9     first and last name and father's name the same, but the difference was

10     the date of birth.  One was born in 1966 and the other one in 1954.  The

11     one which was 1966 would fit the description from that list.

12        Q.   But it wasn't determined for sure that it was, in fact, that

13     person?

14        A.   For fact, in order for me to confirm it for fact, I would rather

15     consult some other sources as well, for example, date of birth and place

16     of birth and perhaps their family members.  This can be done through

17     demographic data we have the OTP available.  So it very often happened in

18     this case and also when I was part of the investigation team that I would

19     come across such situation.  I was unable to say who that person is or to

20     confirm, yes, this is the person.  In such cases I would consult those

21     sources.

22        Q.   Thank you.  On pages 77 to 79 Himza was mentioned who was

23     wounded.  Apart from using the bandages as an indication, was it

24     established in some other way that the very same Himza was, in fact,

25     concerned?

Page 27085

 1        A.   Yes.  In this particular case I did check all individuals with

 2     the same first and last name being born or lived in Bosnia-Herzegovina at

 3     the time.  I think I found three of them, and I was able to exclude one

 4     definitely because he was not the victim or he didn't die.  The second

 5     one I think is found -- is a victim of this Srebrenica event as well but

 6     found somewhere -- in some different location.  What I did was I

 7     consulted their place of birth and family members, and I concluded that

 8     this is Himza Mujic they were talking about, the one found in Bisina

 9     grave, because he was from the area of Han Pijesak where the police

10     officer Jovovic, who we interviewed, was also coming from.  This same

11     Himza Mujic was having this bandage and he was in prison, and also taken

12     into consideration that the killing took place on 23rd of July and

13     intercept reflects - which is the day after - that he left recently and

14     that Popovic would know where he was, so would indicate that he

15     disappeared and he was not in the prison on 24th anymore.  So all those

16     little pieces which I could get from different documents and records, I

17     would put it together, and doing that I was able to establish that, yes,

18     this is Himzo Mujic in question.

19        Q.   You mentioned mitochondrial in relation to DNA.  This was a

20     different sample what the ICMP did.  Is this the same thing or is it a

21     different procedure?  Any differences?  Are these procedures compatible?

22        A.   No, they are different.  And I will just say the basics, what I

23     know as a police officer.  You have two different analysis, DNA analysis

24     mitochondrial and nuclear.  Nuclear is more precise.  Mitochondrial, what

25     you will get, it's -- we are all getting mitochondrial DNA from mother.

Page 27086

 1     It would be -- every single child would get the same mitochondrial DNA

 2     because we are getting it from mother.  So for such identifications like

 3     ICMP is doing, it's useless -- but for some other aspects of

 4     investigation, it can be useful, for example, just to eliminate certain

 5     people as being related to one family.  So you can't exclude -- but these

 6     are different methods.

 7        Q.   I just have another three brief questions.  We agreed, or rather,

 8     you said that the Cerska grave hadn't been disturbed.  If we were to find

 9     someone in it who had been captured on the 17th of July, that means no

10     killing took place on the 13th; isn't that correct?

11        A.   Yes, it's most probably the case, yes.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Did you take DNA samples from the Serbs?  Is there a

13     database for Serbian DNA?  Did you get involved in such things?

14        A.   Not me personally, but I assume the ICMP did get involved in this

15     process as well because they are making identifications for all the

16     missing persons in Bosnia and Herzegovina, including Serbs, Muslims, from

17     all the sides.  So I would assume they have these samples from Serbs as

18     well, yes.

19        Q.   Do you know that some Serbs still being searched for?

20        A.   I don't know for the exact figure, but I'm sure that not

21     everybody were found so far.  There are many, many still on the missing

22     list.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Did the ICMP include in its list remains that had a

24     DNA profile but remains that hadn't been associated with a given

25     individual or with a given family?

Page 27087

 1        A.   No, this would not appear on their list, but it is somewhere in

 2     their database.  They have DNA profiles for individuals which are not

 3     attached to any family members and those we are calling - and I present

 4     in my report - as unique, unmatched DNA profiles.

 5        Q.   But you say that they were killed on the basis of the information

 6     according to which they were found in mass graves, although we don't have

 7     any names and know nothing else about them apart from the fact that we

 8     have their DNA profiles and we know about the sites where they were

 9     found?

10        A.   So just to give you a short answer, yes, and I think I explained

11     once already during these procedures why.

12        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Janc.  If I had more time I'd put more questions

13     to you, but I think we have covered most of the ground.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. West.

15             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I just want to put on the

16     record a misstatement -- I want to put on the record a correction to an

17     earlier misstatement made by Mr. Karadzic.  On page 20 of today's

18     transcript, in speaking about the date of execution at Cerska, he said

19     this is the first time this Defence is hearing this and this is the first

20     time that the Trial Chamber is hearing that perhaps the execution at

21     Cerska did not happen at the 13th.  I want to point out to the Trial

22     Chamber in our pre-trial at paragraph 241 is our -- the Prosecution's

23     allegation that at some point between the 13th and the 17th of July the

24     VRS and MUP forces participated in the execution of Cerska Valley.

25             JUDGE KWON:  But the indictment says on the 13th?

Page 27088

 1             MS. WEST:  I'm just pointing out that this is not the first time

 2     that this has been suggested.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Okay.

 4                           Re-examination by Ms. West:

 5        Q.   Mr. Janc, earlier today -- earlier today in cross-examination you

 6     were asked about some of the columns in the ICMP database, particularly

 7     place of disappearance and time of disappearance.  And there had been a

 8     discussion between the difference of the ICMP information versus the ICRC

 9     information.  Do you remember that discussion?

10        A.   I do.

11        Q.   And particularly at page 12 today, in talking about the ICMP

12     mandate or purpose, you said in the interviews with the families they

13     were trying to get blood sample.  Is it true that the main purpose of

14     that ICMP interview was to get that DNA sample, that blood sample?

15             MR. ROBINSON:  Objection, leading.

16             MS. WEST:  Your Honour, I'm just under some time constraints here

17     and I'm trying to push it along.

18        Q.   What was the main purpose of the ICMP interview?

19        A.   To get these DNA samples from the relatives of missing persons.

20        Q.   And when did the ICMP first start those interviews?

21        A.   I know they commenced its work in 2001.  When they started actual

22     process of getting DNA samples from the relatives, I'm not sure of, was

23     it the same year, subsequent years, so I would need to check that.

24        Q.   Okay.  But at least it's after 2001?

25        A.   Yes, that's my understanding.  Yes.

Page 27089

 1        Q.   And during that period of -- during those interviews when they

 2     were taking the blood sample, is it your understanding that they also

 3     asked some questions of these people?

 4        A.   Yes, they have to.  And I'm aware that they asked certain

 5     questions, but I don't have questions.

 6        Q.   That's fine.  Mr. Janc, could the lapse in time from the actual

 7     events in 1995 to the date of the interview in 2001 affect the

 8     reliability of the information that they gave to ICMP, the verbal

 9     information they gave to ICMP?

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Speculation.  Speculation is being

11     sought.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE KWON:  Probably you leave it -- we can leave it, Ms. West.

14             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

15        Q.   Mr. Janc, at page 10 today you were asked how the IC [sic] got

16     its information, and your answer was:

17             "From relatives at the time when reported after the fall."

18             Can you tell us when the ICRC began interviewing people in regard

19     to the events of July 1995?  Was it at the time or was it later?

20        A.   I'm not sure about the exact date.  I think I saw the first list

21     being compiled or titled as -- or dated as 1996.  But I think they were

22     conducting this already before.

23        Q.   Okay.  And so in -- we're speaking specifically about the

24     issue -- the column of place of disappearance and time of disappearance.

25     And you have told this Chamber that you found the ICRC list more reliable

Page 27090

 1     than the ICMP list.  Can you tell the Chamber why?

 2        A.   Basically because there is more information and you can see the

 3     differences between this information, and it will point you at more

 4     accurate information as to when certain individuals might disappear.  But

 5     I have to emphasize here also that also this data within the ICRC list

 6     are not very accurate for some of the individuals, because I did find

 7     discrepancies within those data, comparing, for example, when certain

 8     person might disappear and where it was later found.  So I would not rely

 9     100 per cent on those data either.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MS. WEST:  I have no further questions.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Are you going to deal with Dean Manning --

13             MS. WEST:  I have --

14             JUDGE KWON:  -- report or shall I leave it to the -- yes,

15     Ms. West.

16             MS. WEST:  That was the last question, Your Honour.

17        Q.   Mr. Janc, in follow-up to His Honour's questions from yesterday,

18     you'll remember this discussion about the 35 people and then your

19     footnote which referred to the Dean Manning report.  Have you had an

20     opportunity to look at this?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Can you tell us a little bit more about the numbers, the 35 and

23     the 44 and the 45?

24        A.   Yes, there is mistake but it does not affect the total numbers.

25     So it should be noted - and I'm referring now to page 2 of my report,

Page 27091

 1     footnote number 4 - I would say 45 individuals were identified in total,

 2     so 45 can be found on this Manning list.  And out of that, ten of them

 3     were included into the ICMP update.  So it means again --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  So 9 in footnote 4 should read 10?

 5             THE WITNESS:  Yes, number 44 should read 45, and number 9 should

 6     read 10.  So -- and it will -- brings us again to 35 in total.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 8             THE WITNESS:  But I would -- reviewing that, I spotted another

 9     little mistake in my report.  If you go to -- in relation to the same

10     issue, to Branjevo Military Farm grave.  The same, it doesn't change the

11     totals --

12             JUDGE KWON:  Could you give us the page?

13             THE WITNESS:  The page is annex A, page 4.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

15             THE WITNESS:  So you see, I have 127 individuals identified by

16     the ICMP and 11 individuals identified by -- before.  So it is actually

17     126 individuals identified by the ICMP and 12 individuals identified by

18     before.  Annex D is correct.  You will find all the names there, but just

19     this is a small difference, and it doesn't affect any totals.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

21             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] For the record, please, may I say

23     the following.  I did not have time to shed more light on the witness's

24     statement in relation to the six persons from 645.  However, I will have

25     an opportunity to do so because I still claim that things are the way I

Page 27092

 1     had put them.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Six persons from 645.  I don't think I followed your

 3     question --

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 045, Witness 045 confirmed that he

 5     saw six persons as they were being killed -- or rather, two went missing.

 6     But the witness tried to challenge that.  However, I don't have time to

 7     deal with it.  Your Excellency, you said "maybe Karadzic will deal with

 8     this."

 9             JUDGE KWON:  You could have dealt with it without asking

10     unnecessary or improper questions of the witness.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE KWON:  Well, Mr. Janc, that concludes your evidence.

13             THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Just one question from me is that whether it was

15     your idea to think about the DNA connections between the graves or is it

16     somebody else's idea?

17             THE WITNESS:  No, it's my idea, and I started it first in this

18     Tribunal.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

20             I would like to thank you on behalf of this Chamber for you --

21     for your evidence and you are free to go.

22             THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE KWON:  We all rise all together.

24             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

Page 27093

 1             MR. TIEGER:  I'm sorry.  We are a little bit late.  I wanted to

 2     raise one matter quickly in private session, but I'll leave that to the

 3     Court.  It really is a 30-second matter.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Could the Chamber move -- but shall we deal

 5     with it in the absence of the witness?

 6             MR. TIEGER:  I think since it is in private session we probably

 7     need to do so.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Thank you, you may be excused.

 9                           [The witness withdrew]

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, shall we go into private session.

11                           [Private session]

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 5                           [Open session]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Now we are in open session.

 7             With the kind indulgence of the interpreters and the staff, we

 8     decided to reduce the time for the break to 45 minutes, so we'll resume

 9     at 1.20.

10                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

11             JUDGE KWON:  And I was told that we'll resume in closed session.

12                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.35 p.m.

13                           [Closed session]

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Page 27095











11  Pages 27095-27133 redacted.  Closed session.















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22                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.59 p.m.,

23                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 29th day of

24                           March, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.