1 Friday, 4 May 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Before we begin today, I'd like to deal with several
7 administrative matters first.
8 First, the Chamber will issue a short oral ruling in relation to
9 the Prosecution motion for stay of the Chamber's decision on the
10 accused's motion to unseal the ICMP exhibits and for extension of time
11 filed on the 2nd of May, 2012.
12 Having considered the arguments in the motion, as well as the
13 accused's response to it, the Chamber has decided to temporarily stay its
14 decision on the accused's motion to unseal ICMP exhibits which was issued
15 on the 25th of April, 2012, and to grant the extension of time sought by
16 the Prosecution in order to allow it to redact some of the ICMP exhibits
17 in accordance with that decision.
18 The Chamber's decision will therefore be stayed until the
19 18th of May, 2012, by which time the Prosecution shall both report back
20 to the Chamber on its dealings with the ICMP, regarding the ICMP
21 exhibits, and will also complete the exercise of redacting some of the
22 said exhibits.
23 Next, on the 2nd of May, 2012, the accused filed a request to
24 append translation report to Exhibit P967, i.e., directive 4. I'm
25 wondering whether Prosecution wishes to respond to the accused's request.
1 Mr. Tieger.
2 MR. TIEGER: That wasn't on our list of anticipated responses,
3 Mr. President. But if you give me a moment to revisit that filing, I
4 will give you a definitive response by the -- in just a moment.
5 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Then I will come to the last issue.
6 In any event, could you come back to us after the first break.
7 Yes. As the Prosecution's case is drawing to a close, the
8 Chamber would benefit from hearing from the parties as to whether they
9 are of the position that the Chamber's decision on designation on
10 stand-by counsel issued on the 15th of April, 2010, should continue to
11 apply after the close of the Prosecution's case, and, if so, to what
12 extent. The Chamber, therefore, requests that the parties, as well as
13 Mr. Harvey, file their written submission on this topic no later than
14 Friday, 11th of May, 2012.
15 My apologies, Mr. Witness, for your inconvenience.
16 If the witness would take the solemn declaration, please.
17 Sir, do you follow the proceedings in your language?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes. If you could take the solemn declaration,
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
22 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
23 WITNESS: KDZ071
24 [Witness answered through interpreter]
25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, sir. Please be seated and make yourself
2 Yes, Ms. West.
3 MS. WEST: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours. As an
4 initial matter, I would like to inform the Trial Chamber that the witness
5 is unfortunately suffering from a very bad toothache. We were notified
6 of that this morning. He has decided that he wants to go through with
7 this, get this over, and then that will be dealt with. But in the event
8 that we have to take additional breaks, that is the reason.
9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you for the information.
10 And thank you for your co-operation, sir. If you feel
11 uncomfortable any time, please don't hesitate to let us know.
12 Yes, Ms. West.
13 MS. WEST: May I have 65 ter 90332, not to be broadcast, please.
14 Examination by Ms. West:
15 Q. Good morning, Mr. Witness.
16 A. Good morning.
17 Q. Sir, if you can look at the screen in front of you and without
18 reading anything or -- out loud, can you please confirm from [sic] us
19 whether that is your name?
20 A. Yes.
21 MS. WEST: Mr. President, may it be admitted.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, that will be admitted under seal.
23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P5027, under seal.
24 MS. WEST:
25 Q. Sir, is it correct that you testified in the Popovic case in
1 2000 -- in the Popovic case?
2 A. Yes, it is.
3 Q. Can you confirm that you have listened to your testimony, that
4 it's accurate, and if asked the same questions today, your answers would
5 be the same?
6 A. I have nothing else to say but what I saw with my own eyes and
7 what I went through.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to come
9 closer to the microphone.
10 JUDGE KWON: Sir, could you come closer to the microphone so that
11 the interpreters can hear you better. Thank you.
12 MS. WEST: Mr. President, I would tender 65 ter 22712A as the
13 public version, and 22712 under seal. We are only tendering three
14 associated exhibits. They are just three photographs; that's 14086,
15 14087, 14109.
16 JUDGE KWON: How about the excerpt from video.
17 MS. WEST: We're not tendering that.
18 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
19 Any objections, Mr. Robinson.
20 MR. ROBINSON: No, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE KWON: So we ... yes, we receive both versions Popovic
22 transcript as well as three associated exhibits.
23 Shall we give the numbers now.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. 65 ter 22712A will be
25 Exhibit P5028, under seal.
1 And 65 ter 22712B will be Exhibit P5029.
2 65 ter 14086 will be Exhibit P5030.
3 65 ter 14087 will be Exhibit P5031.
4 And 65 ter 14109 will be Exhibit P5032.
5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Yes, Ms. West.
6 MS. WEST: Thank you. I have a brief summary.
7 The witness survived a mass execution of Muslim men and boys at
8 the Kravica warehouse on 13 July 1995. Two days earlier, the witness had
9 been forced to abandon his home, and his wife and daughters went to
10 Potocari as he fled through the woods. He was forced to surrender on
11 July 13th in the hills above the Konjevic Polje-Bratunac road and was
12 taken prisoner at a meadow. The witness heard that approximately
13 2.000 people had been captured there. While at the meadow,
14 General Mladic arrived and addressed the prisoners, promising them that
15 they would not be harmed. Shortly thereafter, the prisoners were told to
16 line up a column, four abreast, and march towards Kravica.
17 The witness arrived at the Kravica warehouse between 4.00 and
18 5.00 in the afternoon and entered the western part of the warehouse.
19 That side of the warehouse was nearly full and the witness sat down with
20 his back against the wall. When the last prisoner entered, the room was
21 so crowded that the last prisoner had no place to sit. A soldier kicked
22 that prisoner in the lower back and demanded that he sit down. When the
23 prisoner responded that he was unable to comply, the soldier fired at
25 The witness testified that this is when the shooting started and
1 it did not stop until it became dark. The witness took cover among the
2 dead and lay still in the warehouse overnight in their blood. The
3 witness remained that way for the whole following day during which time
4 soldiers called out for the wounded prisoners, promising to take them to
5 the hospital. Some prisoners believed the promise, went outside and were
6 killed. Around noon, the witness could hear machinery noise outside the
7 building and when it became night, he heard the command: "Park the
8 loader, wash the asphalt, cover the dead with hay."
9 Sometime after midnight, the witness escaped from the warehouse.
10 He was joined by another survivor and fled behind the warehouse into a
11 field of corn.
12 Q. Sir, I just have a few questions for you.
13 While you were at the meadow on that afternoon, at some point did
14 a military truck show up?
15 A. A military truck showed up while we were seated in the meadow.
16 They asked for 35 people to work and they -- they were loaded on the
17 truck. The only one I knew was Fadil Husejnovic. I didn't know the rest
18 of them. The lorry's engine turned on and they were taken into a
19 direction unknown to me. I don't know where they went.
20 Q. Towards the end of your time at the meadow, did General Mladic
22 A. While we were in that meadow - I don't know when that was because
23 I didn't have a watch - General Mladic came and addressed us. He asked
24 us, Do you know me? Some said that they knew him. I kept quiet.
25 The first word he uttered was, Naser abandoned you, and he fled
1 to Tuzla. You are better off not waging war against Serbs. We evacuated
2 your families to Tuzla, Kladanj and Zivinice, and most probably within a
3 day or two, you will be exchanged and you will all find your families.
4 Nobody will beat you. Nobody will provoke you. We will give you food.
5 You are very hot here. We will accommodate you somewhere where it is
7 We applauded him. I raised my hand. I was barefoot. I told
8 him, General, sir, I have my shoes in the back-pack. Can I go and fetch
9 them? And he said, We will give you a pair of shoes. And then I said,
10 Thank you, General, sir.
11 Q. Mr. Witness, you just told us what you said and it appears to be
12 a verbatim quote. Can you tell us why you remember this so well?
13 A. It is branded in my memory. I will always remember that. I
14 remember very well what he said when he arrived.
15 MS. WEST: Mr. President, may we briefly go into private session.
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
17 [Private session]
19 [Open session]
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. West.
21 MS. WEST:
22 Q. Thank you, sir. I have no further questions.
23 A. Thank you.
24 JUDGE KWON: Sir, as you noted, your testimony in the previous
25 case was admitted in its entirety, in lieu of your oral testimony
1 in-chief in this case. Now you will be further asked by the accused,
2 Mr. Radovan Karadzic, in his cross-examination.
3 Do you understand that, sir?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.
5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
6 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Excellencies. Good
8 morning to everybody.
9 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
10 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.
11 A. Good morning.
12 Q. I have to ask you and I have to remind myself that we should make
13 pauses between questions and answers because we want everything recorded.
14 We want to give the interpreters ample time to interpret our words.
15 I'm not going to mention the name of your village but let me ask
16 you: Are you natives of that village, are you indigenous there in that
17 village or did you move from somewhere?
18 A. That's where I was born. That's where I will die. I was
19 expelled, but I have returned.
20 Q. Thank you. What was your financial standing? What was your
22 A. I was a farmer. I was engaged in cattle breeding. That was my
23 main occupation.
24 Q. Please make a pause after my question.
25 How much land did your family have? Would you -- would you have
1 considered -- would you consider yourself a rich family?
2 A. I had a lot of land, but there was nobody to work on that land.
3 Q. How many head of cattle did you have during the war?
4 A. I had four to five cows, about 20 to 30 sheep, and a horse.
5 Q. Thank you. Your village, was it part of the Bandera triangle?
6 Is your village in that area?
7 A. I don't understand what you're asking me.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go into private session for
9 a moment, please.
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
11 [Private session]
12 [Open session]
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic, we are now in open session.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. You served in the army; is that correct?
17 A. Yes, I did.
18 Q. After that, were you transferred to the reserve forces of the
20 A. What do you mean?
21 Q. Well, everyone who serves in an army becomes a reservist.
22 A. I served in Tito's army, and then, from the 18th of ...
23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the answer.
24 JUDGE KWON: The interpreters couldn't hear the last part of your
25 answer, sir.
1 What did you say after: "... from the 18th of ..."?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the 17th of April, not 18th.
3 The 17th of April. I was in the army. And in 1996, I served in Tito's
5 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 1966.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. If I may be of assistance, but please wait with your answer.
8 Don't start it immediately.
9 Is it correct that between 1966 and 1992, you were a reservist of
10 the JNA and you were called to participate in exercises?
11 A. No, I wasn't.
12 Q. Is it true that on the 17th of April, 1992, you joined the unit
13 commanded by the man that you mentioned and you stayed there without
14 interruption until 1996?
15 A. Yes, I did. But I did it mostly during the night because I had
16 to attend to my cattle during day-time. And when I moved to Tuzla, I was
17 in the logistics, providing water, food, firewood, et cetera, because I
18 was mobilised in January.
19 Q. You mean demobilised in January 1996?
20 A. Yes, 1996.
21 Q. Did this unit later on became part of the 281st Eastern Bosnia
22 Light Brigade?
23 A. I wouldn't know that.
24 Q. In one of your statements, you said to the commission of
25 Bosnia-Herzegovina for collecting facts on the war, you said that the
1 fighting had started after the Serbs attacked the village of Podgaj from
2 the Serbian village of Derventa. Were there any fighting before the
3 16th of May, 1992?
4 A. I don't know the date when Podgaj was attacked and burned. I
5 don't remember the date.
6 Q. Thank you. But was there any fighting before the 16th of May and
7 was your units involved in the fighting and sabotage actions from the
8 very beginning until the very end?
9 A. I think that they didn't before the 17th. Nowhere. As far as I
10 can remember.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have in e-court D1987.
13 It used to be MFI'd but since we now have a translation, we have it as an
15 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll not broadcast this one.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. If all the parties can
18 see the English version, maybe we can collapse it and leave only the
19 Serbian version, enlarge it so that the witness can see it better.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Mr. Witness, this contribution to the history of the
22 28th Division, or, rather, the 8th Operations Group, it was something
23 that was drawn up by the 8 OG and look what was being done.
24 It says from the 1st of May, a sabotage action was carried out in
25 Zutica sector. Then some attacks were avoided. And then on the
1 15th of May, they participated in -- liberated the area between Osredak,
2 Orahovica, Viogor, Bojna, Zeleni Jadar.
3 A. I don't remember those dates. I only remember that Podgaj was
4 attacked and people were expelled, as was Zutica.
5 Q. I'm not going to ask you about the dates.
6 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, at least you please wait until the
7 English translation of witness's answer is completed.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise. You're right.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. So, Mr. Witness, I'm only going to ask you if you aware of this
11 action, regardless of the date, and you can tell me whether you do know
12 or don't know.
13 A. I know that there was such an action but I don't know the date.
14 Q. But do you know that there was another attack on Zutica, or,
15 rather, a sabotage action, as written here, on the 22nd of May?
16 A. I can't tell you anything about these sabotage actions off the
17 top of my head and when they took place. I had other interests and
18 concerns of my own.
19 Q. All right. But you were a member of that unit which virtually on
20 a daily basis was actively involved in operations, either in attacks or
21 in defensive actions. So you carried out a large number of operations in
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we move on. Can we scroll up
24 the page, please.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Do you remember combat activities of your unit in the Serbian
2 village of Jezestica?
3 A. I know where that happened. A neighbour of mine was killed in
4 that action.
5 Q. Thank you. On this page, we can see that this happened on the
6 22nd of August, 1992.
7 Now I think we can move to the next page.
8 A. Don't ask me about the dates. I don't know any dates of any of
9 those events.
10 Q. You also know about a sabotage action on Besica Brdo, when you
11 captured a 55 tank, a PAT, and other war looty [as interpreted]?
12 A. Yes, I remember that.
13 Q. Then there was a sabotage action in Nikolici. Then an attack in
14 the Fakovici sector where you also seized a lot of combat materiel?
15 A. Mr. Karadzic, how come that you are listing all these villages
16 without mentioning the six municipalities that you have expelled people
18 Q. We'll come to that. Mr. Witness, please, I would like to assure
19 you that I respect all the victims and I feel remorse for them, but we
20 need to go into all the combat activities that took place and how many
21 people were killed during those actions prior to July 1995.
22 A. I did not take part in any of the actions. I know that both
23 sides carried out their own actions.
24 Q. Thank you. Do you remember what happened at Fakovici? There was
25 a big operation there?
1 A. Yes, there was an action. I know that.
2 Q. Do you remember an attempt to return Pajici?
3 A. I have not heard about that before. What is the name of the
5 Q. It is Pajici or Pejici?
6 A. Pajic? I know that there were two houses of the Pajic family in
7 Bukovica. I'm not familiar with the village called Pajic.
8 Q. Do you remember the 7th of January, 1993. There was an operation
9 in the Kravica sector?
10 A. I remember that.
11 Q. Do you know how many Serbian villagers were killed in Kravica on
12 that day?
13 A. I don't know. I was not there. I don't know how many of ours of
14 yours got killed.
15 Q. Thank you. You mentioned that you recognised some people later
16 on in July 1995, some people who arrived from Visnjica. Do you remember
17 that your unit carried out several actions against Visnjica and the last
18 of those actions was sometime on the 22nd of June, 1995?
19 A. I remember when it was.
20 Q. Thank you. Is it true that the Lipovac and Kutezero companies
21 from January 1993 to January 1994 were on the strength of the independent
22 battalion Zeleni Jadar?
23 A. I don't know that. I don't know on whose strength those
24 companies were.
25 Q. Okay. I'm going to read the names and you can tell me whether
1 you know them or not.
2 Up to the 31st of January, 1994 - we can scroll up a little - did
3 the following people get killed.
4 Maho Avdic, Sead Hodzic, Salko Becirevic, Juso Medic,
5 Adil Hasanovic, Merludin Ahmetovic [phoen]. Let me not read all of the
6 names. Can you please look at the names.
7 We are looking at chapter 4. Can we have that?
8 A. Yes, I remember that those people got killed.
9 Q. Chapter 5. Please scroll up a little bit more.
10 Can you see the names? Can you read the names? The names of the
11 combatants who got killed before the 31st of January, 1994.
12 A. I can't see that.
13 Q. Very well.
14 Very well. I will leave that subject. But, in any case, that
15 unit was very active, very courageous, the command was very good, the
16 commanders were different. There was Zulfo among them as well as
17 Mujo Bektic. There were different commanders; right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you. We'll find that in chapter 4 of this report that ends
20 with the year 1994.
21 Let us leave this topic.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, can this be admitted
23 because we have a translation of the document now.
24 JUDGE KWON: Shall we deal with it now or leave it to be dealt
25 with together with all the other MFI documents.
1 Mr. Robinson.
2 If Prosecution is in the position to respond to the accused's
3 request to fully admit this.
4 MS. WEST: I'd appreciate leaving it to till later, please.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
6 Yes, we leave it at that, to make a more informed decision,
7 when -- to -- to look into the situation when it was admitted. It's
8 better to leave it now.
9 Let's move on, Mr. Karadzic.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Between you and the Serbian villages around you -- or, rather,
13 the Serbian villages closest to you were they under the control of the
14 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina or did they have their own control, or,
15 rather, was there a line between you and your villages?
16 A. As far as I know, those Serbian villages that I know were never
17 under the control of Zulfo Tursunovic.
18 As for the line, there was a line between us and them.
19 Q. You are saying that there was a line between the villages. That
20 you were on the one side and the others -- they were on the other. How
21 far were they from the line?
22 A. It depended on the configuration of the terrain. At places they
23 were 2 kilometres away. They were closest to the line near Slatina.
24 Q. Did you know each other before the war?
25 A. Well, who do you mean?
1 Q. Your neighbours. Your Serbian neighbours from the neighbouring
3 A. I knew a lot of them. I knew a lot of people from Koprivno,
4 Nikolici, Vasiljevici, Derventa. We knew each other and we were good
5 neighbours. If anybody had told me that things like that would happen, I
6 would not have believed them.
7 Q. During the war, were there any contacts, since you knew each
8 other, were there any contacts between you? Did you trade or anything?
9 A. As far as I know, I don't remember that there were any contacts,
10 unless somebody did it furtively. As far as I remember, nobody contacted
11 anybody there.
12 Q. Thank you. You're saying that when a decision was made to try
13 and break through, through the woods, you said that the first group
14 carried out a clearing of mines. Whose mines were those?
15 A. Those were Serbian mines. I don't know who laid them. I ...
16 Q. Are you saying that the Serbs laid minefields between your
18 A. Yes. In the woods. Not between the villages. When we started
19 walking through the woods, there were minefields there. When we set out
20 from Jaglici, it was only then that I saw and heard about the mines.
21 Somebody said, Watch out, there are mines in the fields.
22 Q. Thank you. Are you familiar with the actions of the
23 28th Division against the Serbian villages from the moment when
24 Srebrenica had been proclaimed a protected area until July 1995?
25 A. After it had become a protected area, I don't remember any action
1 being taken. Anyway, it's not clear to me.
2 Q. Thank you. But why, then, did the Serbs plant mines and
3 minefields around their villages?
4 A. Well, it's up to you to say. I don't know why they did it.
5 Q. On the 11th of July, did you have any combat contact with the VRS
6 in the area of Tursunovic's brigade or did you hear about the fall of
8 A. The whole day of the 11th of July, I was gathering hay. My
9 daughter came and asked me, What are you doing? People are leaving.
10 Srebrenica had fallen.
11 After I finished my work, I went home. I took some food with me
12 and I went out to let the cattle loose. I came across my brother-in-law.
13 I took my rucksack and I set off.
14 Q. Now, how did you decide to send your family to Potocari and that
15 you should go through the woods? Was that your choice or was that
16 decided by someone else?
17 A. A courier came who said that women, the old people, and the
18 children should go to the UNPROFOR base in Potocari because that was the
19 protected area. Those who were able-bodied should head for the woods and
20 it's up to them to see if they could make it or not.
21 Q. That was a courier from the brigade; right?
22 A. Yes, of course, from the brigade. It wasn't my decision.
23 Q. It wasn't recorded that the able-bodied should try to make a
24 breakthrough through the woods and they should see whether they would
25 succeed or not.
1 A. Well, there was no other option. I think that only nine or ten
2 people from my village went to Potocari.
3 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. I understand that it's difficult to
4 wait, but because both of you are speaking the same language, which is to
5 be translated by the interpreters, could you kindly put a pause before
6 you start answering the question, Mr. Witness.
7 Do you understand that, sir?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. At one point, were you yourself in two minds whether to head for
13 Potocari, or is it a fact that your back-pack remained on your friend's
14 horse and that you eventually decided to opt for a breakthrough after
16 Can you please wait for the interpretation to be finished.
17 You can go ahead now.
18 A. When I parted from my family above Ravne Njive, I decided to head
19 for Potocari, because I was too old to go to the woods. But a friend of
20 mine came. We set off from Brestove Ravne [phoen]. My back-pack was
21 very heavy, and he decided to take it off me and put it on his horse, and
22 that's why I decided to follow my back-pack because I had food there and
23 I had some clothes there, and, therefore, I decided to head for Jaglici.
24 Q. Thank you. Would anyone from the brigade hold it against you if
25 you decided to go to Potocari rather than to stay with them?
1 Please wait for the interpretation.
2 MS. WEST: Objection.
3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, could you reformulate your question.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Did the courier leave it up to people to make their own decisions
6 whether to head for Potocari or to the forest, or was that an information
7 in the form of an order to gather all members of the brigade in one
9 A. I don't know what the courier decided. Everyone made their own
10 decisions. If I didn't have this back-pack, and if I didn't head for --
11 and if I did go to Potocari, I wouldn't be here today. Therefore, I
12 decided to head for the forests.
13 Q. Thank you. When you came to Jaglici, did you all get together
14 with their respective brigades and were there any civilians with their
15 brigades once you gathered in Jaglici first?
16 A. When I arrived Jaglici, it was already night. There was a huge
17 crowd of people there, and I joined those with whom I was more friendly,
18 and I left Jaglici with them at 20 to 1.00. I asked Nusret Turkovic from
19 Vrsine what time it was and he told me it was 20 to 1.00, so that's how I
20 know when I set off.
21 Q. You say that you had a hunting rifle with you, that you gave to
22 someone later on.
23 A. Yes. I had my own hunting rifle. When I met my brother-in-law
24 in Jaglici, he found a -- the brother of a friend of mine. He took my
25 back-pack and I told him that I had been carrying it all the time. He
1 took the rifle from me, but he left me my back-pack with the food and the
2 clothes that we both had packed in it. And I never saw him again, nor
3 the rifle.
4 Q. Thank you. So if you arrived during the night, did you then line
5 up on the morning of the 12th?
6 A. Yes, we did line up I don't know how many times that morning in
7 Jaglici. There was no one from the command there, though. Neither
8 anyone from the municipality. People were just wandering around
10 Q. Thank you. Did all members of all the brigades, pursuant to
11 instruction, head off to make a breakthrough through the forest or did
12 any of the brigades remain behind?
13 A. The majority of civilians who were not armed were the last to
14 leave Jaglici, and I was among them.
15 Q. Thank you. Is it true that at the head of the column there was a
16 reconnaissance party, those who were clearing mines, and
17 Zulfo Tursunovic?
18 A. I don't know what was going on at the head of the column. I was
19 at the rear. Had I been closer to the head, we -- I wouldn't have found
20 myself in dire straits.
21 Q. Who was in the command of the rear of the column?
22 And please wait for the interpretation to finish.
23 Go on.
24 A. As far as I can remember, nobody was in command. When we arrived
25 at Buljim, on a macadam road, there was a valley full of people and I
1 don't know what they were waiting for. They could not join up with the
2 column. That was the first time that I saw Golic.
3 Golic arrived and shouted at us, What are you waiting for? And
4 maybe 100 metres away somebody said, We cannot find where the column
5 went. And then he cursed his mother and his father and said, You will
6 see where the column is, and then he headed towards that person who said
7 that he lost the column. And he shouted from the left part of the
8 hilltop, he started cursing and asking what the people were waiting for.
9 And then the shooting started and nobody watched anybody else. Nobody
10 watched me or anybody else. There was shooting, big time.
11 Q. Was that the first time that the shooting started for the first
12 time? Who was it that opened fire?
13 A. That was our first ambush that we encountered near Buljim. That
14 was the first ambush.
15 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that before that, you had realised that
16 the Serbs could see you but that they didn't open fire until you reached
18 A. I don't know whether they saw us or not. I couldn't see what was
19 happening in the forest and who was hiding there. When we entered the
20 area near Buljim along the brook, the shooting started. The fire opened
21 and then we started walking. Me and a few of my acquaintances, we
22 started walking along the brook and I saw a lot of people who were either
23 wounded or dead on the -- on the ground. We started walking along the
24 brook. A neighbour caught up with me. He has a wife in Kamenica. He
25 asked me where we were. And he told us we were near Kamenica and he told
1 us to go left. And from that river, we turned into the wood on the left,
2 and the dark caught up with us and then shooting started again under a
3 hilltop. When Praga opened fire we could see a light above it, and the
4 shooting went on for a long time. We could hear the shots and the noise
5 and then we started walking towards the area where shots came from.
6 It was dark and then bursts of fire started again, we returned.
7 I -- I hid behind a bush. Nobody could target me from the side and I
8 thought that the others did the same. When I got -- stood up, there was
9 nobody there. And then I got started walking towards the same hilltop.
10 Another burst of fire and then another burst of fire and then I shouted
11 at them, Please don't shoot. I'm one of yours. And I asked him who was
12 there. And he said, Suad. And he said, Wait for me. And then I went up
13 there. There was a guy on the ground and he said, Sir, do you have
14 anything in your back-pack? And I said, I have some bread and some meat.
15 And he said, I have not eaten for three days. And I gave him food and
16 then he had that food, and then he thanked me for having had food and
17 then he said, Let's go.
18 And as we walked, we actually walked on the bodies of dead
19 people. People were crying from the brook and the group went there to
20 collect that person but nobody came back because there was a fire. And
21 then the morning broke above Kamenica. In the meantime I lost Suad. I
22 didn't even know that we were in a Kamenica. And then I recognised
23 Redzo Mehmedovic and I saw that people were being lined up. I was on the
24 right-hand side. I walked behind them and then I met another group from
25 the neighbouring village who asked me, Where are you going -- or, rather,
1 I asked them. And then they said that they were being lined up. I asked
2 if there were any more people there. And they said yes, there are more
3 people, and then we set out towards there. I found a lot of people that
4 I knew from Srebrenica.
5 I asked Amir Gabelic, who was a member of the SUP in Vlasenica
6 before the war, I asked him if he had seen Huso, and he told me that Huso
7 was alive. Everybody told me that Huso was alive but I couldn't find him
9 And we were there. There was a paramedic who was dressing the
10 wounds of those who were wounded. Then we were again encircled. They
11 started shooting at us. People scattered. The fire continued and they
12 started calling out to us, Surrender, surrender. Some people started
13 raising their hands with T-shirts in their hands and they encircled us
14 and told us to carry the wounded. And I carried Turkovic Mujo from
15 Masinje [phoen] and his brother was also wounded in the shoulder. We
16 were carrying them. I was not the only one who carried them, and we
17 carried them all the way to the river. We crossed the river and two
18 soldiers were standing there. They searched us. They searched our
19 pockets to see if we had any knives or bombs, and they asked us to open
20 our back-packs to see what is there. They tied our hands behind the
21 back. We crossed an asphalt road and we ended up in the meadow. I
22 didn't know what that was. We were seated in the meadow --
23 Q. Thank you. We'll come to that. But let's clarify something,
25 In your statement, in your testimony on the 10th of April, 2000,
1 page 2478, you were examined by Mr. Cayley. And there, you said that the
2 Serbs were along the road and they could see you. But that there wasn't
3 any shooting until the point in time when you wanted to cross the road
4 beneath Buljim.
5 Is that correct what you said at the time?
6 A. Yes. There was no shooting for that period. But as to whether
7 they saw us or not, I don't know. I didn't see them. But when we were
8 under Buljim, that's when the shooting started.
9 Q. Thank you. Are you exaggerating with regard to the number of
10 those who were killed and wounded? How many men were wounded and killed?
11 A. By the stream?
12 Q. In the first ambush.
13 A. Well, sir, I don't know whether you would have managed in those
14 conditions to see how many were killed and how many wounded.
15 Q. Very well. So the order was issued by your command to carry the
16 wounded with you?
17 A. No. But your men surrounded us, they told us to take the wounded
18 with us. That was just above Kamenica.
19 Q. Thank you. But from the beginning, some men were killed. What
20 did you do with the wounded before you were surrounded and what did you
21 do with those who were killed?
22 A. No one carried away those who were wounded or dead beneath
23 Buljim. It was each man for himself.
24 Q. Very well. So you didn't even have any time to bury them?
25 A. Well, who would have buried them?
1 Q. What happened later? Who buried them?
2 A. Well, I don't know anything about that. As to whether they were
3 buried or whether the animals got to them and ate them, I don't know.
4 Q. When you were captured you were told to take the wounded and
5 those who had been killed with you?
6 A. Yes, we were told to take the wounded with us. I did that and
7 another group also Mujo Turkovic away. Nusret was also wounded and he
8 was taken across the river. We put him down by the river. He stayed
9 there. But I saw that Nusret went into a house, and from that point in
10 time onwards, he disappeared without trace.
11 Q. Thank you. You say you surrendered or were captured in the area
12 of Lolici?
13 A. I wasn't captured near Lolici. I was captured above Kamenica,
14 where I was surrounded. We were driven away to Lolici. I didn't know of
15 Kamenica or Lolici. Ramiz Muskic, who survived in Kravica, is the person
16 I asked about where we had been. He said in Lolici. I didn't know that
17 place. If I had known that place, I would have managed to flee somehow.
18 But I didn't know that place at all.
19 Q. Thank you. In part of your testimony you said that there was
20 some confusion. The Muslims also opened fire on each other and until
21 their names were revealed - that was on 16 January 1996, that's what you
22 stated in your statement to the Bosnian authorities - you said that it
23 was only when you heard certain names that you realised there had been
24 some confusion and then the shooting stopped; is that right?
25 A. I don't know. Well, there was the first ambush near Buljim and
1 then another ambush when a Praga weapon was used. So there was some
2 confusion. I don't know who was shooting at the time. I know that this
3 Praga weapon opened fire and that was where there were a lot of men who
4 were killed.
5 Q. You said that they stopped shooting at you when you said what
6 your name was and then you realised that they were your men?
7 A. Well, how would we have had a Praga weapon in our rear? How
8 would we have used it to open fire?
9 Q. Very well. A Praga is not important, but in your statement of
10 the 16th of January, page 3, you said there was some confusion and men
11 were shooting at each other and until the men revealed their names --
12 A. What sort of names?
13 Q. Was there any shooting from the group as a result of this
15 A. All I know is that the first ambush had been laid by Buljim. The
16 second ambush in which men were killed -- well, I arrived there at night
17 and I was walking over the bodies there. But as to what happened there,
18 I do not know.
19 Q. Very well. Did you have some sort of ribbons to identify you?
20 Did you have anything to -- any markings to identify you?
21 A. What sort of markings? What sort of identification? Who would
22 have done that?
23 Q. Very well. Could you tell us some of the names of those who were
25 A. I need a break. A short break.
1 JUDGE KWON: We'll take a break for half an hour and resume at
2 quarter to 11.00.
3 --- Recess taken at 10.13 a.m.
4 --- On resuming at 10.45 a.m.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.
6 Sir, I take it now you are feeling better?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not a problem.
8 JUDGE KWON: Thank you very much.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Did you know those people who were killed in your vicinity? Can
12 you give us a few names.
13 A. Below Buljim.
14 Q. Anywhere.
15 A. Well, how would I know them? All I was thinking about was how to
16 save my life. I wasn't thinking about whether someone was dead or alive.
17 Q. But there was someone you knew whose name was Senahid. I won't
18 mention his surname.
19 A. That was below the place where the second ambush was laid, behind
20 Kamenica, when I was with Suad. He was wearing something that I
21 recognised. He's the only person I recognised. I asked Suad for a light
22 or a match to see him more clearly. I never saw that Suad again.
23 Q. Thank you. Do you know what Senahid's father's name was?
24 A. Osman.
25 Q. Thank you. First ambush was by Buljim, the second one by
2 A. Well, it was above Kamenica somewhere. How am I to know what the
3 name of that area was?
4 Q. Thank you. Is Kamenica in the municipality of Bratunac or in the
5 municipality of Zvornik?
6 A. I wouldn't know for sure. I think it's in the municipality of
7 Bratunac. I'm not sure about Zvornik. But I'm more inclined to believe
8 that it is in the municipality of Bratunac.
9 Q. Thank you. At one place you saw that there were 20 people who
10 were killed. I'll tell you where that can be found. It was in the early
11 morning on the 13th.
12 I'll tell you where that can be found now. They ran down towards
13 the meadow where the grass was very high -- well, that's Kamenica, in
14 fact. That's the second ambush, isn't it?
15 A. I think that is the first ambush down by the stream. That's
16 where I saw about 20 people who had been killed. They had either been
17 wounded or killed. And at the place where there was the second ambush,
18 there were so many dead people that it was impossible to count them.
19 Q. Thank you. You saw the number who were killed from the 281st.
20 Did your unit have a lot of losses before July 1995?
21 A. There were a lot of civilian victims. My daughter was killed
22 from the shrapnel. My cattle was also killed. Two of my neighbours were
23 also killed. And in the neighbouring village, there was one woman who
24 was also killed. There were people who were killed in action. A few
25 people but not many. When Srebrenica fell, they went off in the
1 direction of Potocari and through the woods, and they sustained losses
3 Q. Thank you. You also know something about weapons, don't you?
4 And if you saw a rifle close-up, you could identify it. If you saw such
5 a weapon from a distance, you wouldn't be able to say exactly what sort
6 of a rifle it was, but you could say that it was an automatic one.
7 A. Well, I'm familiar with the automatic rifles, the M48s and
8 hunting rifles. I was also familiar with these light machine-guns. The
9 34 light machine-gun. And the 53 light machine-gun. I have heard about
10 the 84 weapon but I never had it in my hands, and I've never seen such a
11 weapon either.
12 Q. Thank you. You said that you saw some Serbs, some Serbian
13 soldiers, who had these belts on them.
14 A. That was in Kravica, in Lolici. There were the regular troops.
15 They were wearing these belts, ammunition belts, and they all wore such
16 belts. From Lolici to Kravica, every 5 metres and on both sides, one
17 could see a soldier. So when we set out in a column from Lolici to
18 Kravica, he said we should advance four abreast in the column. There
19 were -- there was a 53 or an 84 weapon about 50 metres from me, so this
20 person had this machine-gun. And he had a German Shepherd dog.
21 Q. The men you saw near the road, they had automatic rifles?
22 A. Yes, they had automatic rifles. They were providing security for
23 the road to make sure that no one appeared suddenly. They had these
24 ammunition belts over their chests and automatic rifles and every 6 or
25 7 metres there was a soldier.
1 Q. I'm a little confused. You used clips for automatic rifles not
2 ammunition belts. How come they had these ammunition belts?
3 A. Well, on the whole, they had these ammunition belts. We were in
4 a column, four abreast, there was an UNPROFOR transport vehicle, armoured
5 vehicle to the right of us. We passed by it, they didn't react. I don't
6 know who was in it.
7 Q. Thank you. When you were taken prisoner, you were assembled on a
8 meadow. Is that the meadow that is called Sandici?
9 A. I don't know whether it was Sandici or Lolici. Ramzo Muskic said
10 that we were in Lolici. He knew the place. But there were others who
11 were in Sandici. We were taken to Kravica in a column, but there were
12 others who were transported by bus.
13 Q. Very well. So you say that there were between 4- and 500 of you
15 A. I didn't count the number of people. I listened to those
16 whispering in front of me. They said there were about 2.000. But I
17 didn't count the -- the number of people there.
18 Q. Thank you. This morning in her summary, Ms. West from
19 Prosecution said that you heard that there were 2.000. Does that mean
20 that that wasn't the conclusion you drew? That's what you heard?
21 A. That's what I heard. I heard them whispering that number. There
22 was a teacher and there was a paramedic, and they were whispering and
23 saying that there were 2.000 people. But it never even crossed my mind
24 to count the people there. All I could do was think about myself.
25 Q. Very well. According to the information we have, no one was
1 assembled or detained in Lolici. No prisoners. Perhaps they just passed
2 through Lolici, but they were in Sandici. Did General Mladic address
4 A. I know that Ramiz Muskic told me that. I didn't know Kravica,
5 Lolici or Sandici. Where were we, I asked. He said, In Lolici. And
6 General Mladic appeared there.
7 Q. Thank you. And that was about half past 1.00 or 2.00 in the
8 afternoon; is that right?
9 A. I didn't have a watch, but judging by the position of the sun, it
10 was between 1.00 and 2.00.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see D2253, please.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Is this the meadow; can you remember?
15 A. There were more people on the meadow where I was. I don't think
16 there are many people here.
17 Q. You can't see all of them. That's just some of them. But is
18 that the meadow?
19 A. I don't know. I can't even see some of the houses. There were
20 two houses. One was to the left; the other to the right. And to the
21 left and right, there was a parked tank. And on the tank to the right,
22 there was a PAM, which turned around twice. Someone cried out, Are we
23 going to let him pass through? The other one said, I don't know -- or,
24 rather, he said, Shall we fire?
25 But they didn't fire on us because this other person said, Don't
1 play around.
2 Q. That was the younger soldier. But the older soldier warned him
3 and told him not to fool around.
4 A. He said, Don't fool around, lower that down. I can't say that he
5 opened fire, but he just turned this barrel around twice. And he said,
6 Shall we let him off?
7 Q. Thank you. And while you were detained there, you recognised
8 some people who could have been from Visnjica or, rather, who were from
9 Visnjica. There was a Serb from Visnjica, isn't that right?
10 A. I did not recognise him. There was this fair-haired person and
11 there was someone whom they called Madjarevic. The Madjarevics lived in
12 Visnjica. They said, Search them. So they searched all of them. They
13 took everything, money, gold. I had 11 golden coins. I had 400 francs
14 and 300 German marks. I had ten golden coins. I had two necklaces that
15 belonged to my daughter. And the one with a yellow -- or ponytail took
16 the golden coins, and he asked the other person, What is this? And he
17 said, Put it in your pocket. Don't fool around. They took money from
18 everyone. When they found it, they took gold too. They searched someone
19 they knew. He pleaded with them and asked them to leave them
20 50 German marks for cigarettes. They said, You'll get your cigarettes.
21 And they took everything they found.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have P4308. Page 50.
24 We'll show this to the witness now.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. While waiting for this document, Witness, before General Mladic
2 appeared, was anyone taken away? Did lorries or buses of any kind arrive
3 to transport these vehicles [as interpreted]? Were you there when
4 General Mladic addressed you?
5 A. There were lorries and buses from Potocari. They set off from
6 Potocari with elderly people. Some of the buses passed by as well, and
7 we were there on the meadow, sitting down there.
8 Q. In your group, was anyone taken away before Mladic appeared or
9 were you all there when Mladic appeared?
10 A. There was only that lorry that went away, that one that was
11 supposed to go to a working organisation, and that's the lorry from which
12 they threw out spades. There was only one person whom I recognised,
13 Fadil Husejnovic.
14 Q. Have a look at the screen. You can see the buses and the meadow
15 here. Are you familiar with this area? Could this be the meadow we are
17 A. Judging by what I see on the screen -- well, there was no forest
18 in the area where we were sitting. As for the asphalt road that links
19 Bratunac and Konjevic Polje, well, that was the first time I was in that
21 Q. Thank you.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see the mid -- the
23 middle of the screen so that the witness can see the detainees and the
25 Can we see the left part of the screen, one-third to the left.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Can you see the houses there? And can you see the people across
3 the road? And on the other side, there's a house that was damaged?
4 A. I can't see a group of people here.
5 Q. Can you see these houses to the right, the two or three houses,
6 and then if have a look at the left part, you can see a group of people.
7 It looks like a forest, but these are people.
8 A. I can't find my bearings here when looking at the screen. Don't
9 ask me about the forest or the meadow. All I know is that Ramiz Muskic
10 said that the place was called Lolici.
11 Q. Was this road this far away from you when you saw the buses
12 transporting the civilians?
13 A. The road was near us. It wasn't very far away. And that
14 concerns those who were going from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje.
15 Q. Did Madjarevic show you -- was he hospitable, particularly
16 hospitable towards you because he was from Visnjica or did he act in a
17 professional way?
18 A. He didn't act provocatively, but the orders they had received was
19 to take money and gold. They searched the people. When they found
20 things they took it away -- they took them away. If they didn't find
21 anything, they couldn't take anything because there was nothing to take.
22 Q. Very well. We don't need this image on the screen anymore.
23 You said that when you set off you saw Serb civilians and they
24 weren't particularly interested in you and they didn't provoke you?
25 A. What do you mean? When we were on the road heading in the
1 direction of Kravica? I only saw those soldiers on that road.
2 Q. Thank you. And they behaved normally; isn't that right?
3 A. While we were going along the road, no one did anything to us.
4 Q. Thank you. Did you all walk from that meadow to Kravica or were
5 some transported there by bus?
6 A. All of us who were on the meadow advanced in a column.
7 Q. When did General Mladic come to the meadow?
8 A. I don't know what time it was. I didn't have a watch with me.
9 Q. Thank you. Now, you arrived in Kravica. And you say that at the
10 entrance to the co-operative building, you saw two buses, one closer, one
11 far away, and you had to squeeze between these two buses?
12 A. One bus was parked in front of the storehouse, and we had to pass
13 between the warehouse and the bus. There is an asphalt road there. The
14 bus was parked between the warehouse and the asphalt road, and we had to
15 pass between the bus and the warehouse. I went through the first door.
16 Then I went through the second door. I saw that everything was already
17 fully packed. You couldn't find a millimetre of free space. I tried to
18 go through to a corner. There were soldiers standing on both sides of
19 the door, and one of them told me, Sit down. I wanted to lean on the
20 wall because I had pain in my back.
21 When the last man entered the storehouse, he didn't have any room
22 to sit. This one swore at him and he kicked him in the lower back. He
23 said to the soldier, Well, you see, there's no place for me to sit. But
24 he just opened fire, and they were shooting for a long time. There was
25 darkness in the storehouse. People were screaming and crying and asking
1 for help, but who could help us?
2 I just sat close to a man called Salko Redzic of Vlasenica, and
3 we were lying down the whole time. At one point, Salko just shouted,
4 Brother, I am dead. I am killed. And he was hit in the chest with a lot
5 of bullets.
6 Once the shooting stopped, we could hear them outside the
7 storehouse chatting and joking.
8 I had a shirt and a jumper on me, and it was all bloodied, and
9 that's how I arrived in Zepa. I was all covered in blood. And people
10 told me, Keep that jumper. This is going to be a proof. But you know
11 how refugees suffered from the lack of clothing, and eventually this
12 jumper was thrown into the bin because somebody told me that it was not
13 possible to wash it.
14 Q. Thank you. I'm a little bit confused when you said that it was
15 already fully packed. In your statement given to the state security in
16 Tuzla, you said that the building was yellow and that it was completely
17 empty when you arrived.
18 A. That is not correct. I remember that clearly. I said in my
19 statement that it was fully packed up until the second door. And you may
20 say whatever you wish. I stand by what I saw and experienced. But, sir,
21 you and Mladic are guilty of this. You took over Srebrenica. Why didn't
22 you let people go away? Why did you have to kill them?
23 Q. Well, let's leave it. It's not to us.
24 A. Well, it's not up to me either.
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, for the accused.
1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, microphone, please.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.
3 Can we now have 1D5577.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. That's your statement given in 1995. October 1995, given in
6 Tuzla when your memory was the most fresh.
7 Now, can we have page 3; the penultimate paragraph.
8 JUDGE KWON: We'll not broadcast this.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 3 in English; and in Serbian,
10 it's the bottom of page 2. So number 3 in English.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] I'm going to read to you the
12 following. [No interpretation].
13 [Interpretation] "We arrived in Kravica in the evening and they
14 took us into a building. I heard that was an agricultural warehouse.
15 The building was big with a yellow facade with a porter's lodge on the
16 left of the entrance to the warehouse. The building was completely
17 inside [as interpreted]. We went inside and we had to sit on the
18 concrete floor."
19 A. I don't know what time it was. I think it was between 4.00 and
21 Q. Very well --
22 JUDGE KWON: Probably the transcript, line 15, should read: "The
23 building was completely empty inside."
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The building to which I came, I
25 said that this building was fully packed as far as the second door. And
1 I stand by that.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. But it says here --
4 A. You can say that there was no one in this building. You can say
5 as well that nobody was killed in that building.
6 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Shall we collapse?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where are the people, then, if
8 nobody was killed? They were not killed by lightning in Potocari, or
9 thunder-storm. Anyone can see that, if they wish to go to Potocari.
10 JUDGE KWON: Shall we collapse the English version and zoom in
11 the part ...
12 First, let us -- we do not broadcast this document.
13 Do you see your signature at the bottom of this page, sir? Is
14 that your signature?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.
16 JUDGE KWON: Why don't we show him the first page.
17 Do you also see your signature here?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see it.
19 JUDGE KWON: And the last page.
20 So this must be your statement given to the authority in 1995.
21 Do you agree, sir?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree with what I had spoke
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't want to change anything,
1 and I don't want to add anything.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Let's go back to the page.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 2.
4 JUDGE KWON: Here, you said at the time -- it is written here
5 that the building was completely empty inside. Is that a mistake?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember that very well. Not in
7 a single statement of mine did I say that the building was completely
8 empty. Up until the second door, the area was fully packed with people.
9 But who wrote this, I'm not interested in that.
10 You don't need witnesses to testify to what happened in Potocari.
11 There's a graveyard full of people in Potocari.
12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
13 Please continue.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Let's just go back for a moment to the bus that you mentioned.
16 Was there anyone on the bus at that point?
17 A. I didn't see that. Whether they brought anyone or not, all I saw
18 was the bus. Some people said that people had been driven by buses. I
19 know that I arrived there in a column.
20 Q. Thank you. Was that bus riddled with bullets whilst you were
21 passing by it?
22 A. Well, do you really think that I had time to look and check
23 whether it was damaged by -- by bullets?
24 Q. But it wasn't damaged.
25 A. Look, man, I don't know. I haven't seen anything. Would you
1 think about anything of that sort if you were in my shoes? I was only
2 concerned about what was -- going to happen to me, whether I would
3 survive or not.
4 Q. Thank you. Whilst you were in the building, were you able to
5 hear or did you hear any shooting around the building, across the small
6 river in the forest?
7 A. I don't know what was going on outside. I know what was
8 happening inside. However, what was happening in the forest or around
9 the road, I don't know anything about that. All I know is what was
10 happening is -- in the warehouse.
11 Q. But you said there were gun-shots outside?
12 A. Yes. But there were gun-shots aiming at the doors and the
13 windows. If you look now, would you be able to see what is happening
14 outside at the moment?
15 Q. Now, before this shooting at windows and doors, did you hear any
16 distant gun-shots around the warehouse?
17 A. Listen, I already told you about this so don't ask me what was
18 happening outside and in the surroundings.
19 Q. Very well.
20 A. Don't "very well" me. Don't ask me any questions -- and I can
21 only tell you what was happening inside the storehouse. I didn't see
22 what was going on outside the warehouse.
23 Q. Very well. Are you saying that there was fire from Zoljas and
24 Osas? Did you see the people firing from those weapons?
25 A. I don't know what kind of weapons were used. I already said, it
1 was pitch-dark in the warehouse. You couldn't see more than 6 metres away.
2 Q. And in this same statement, I think, you said that you had been
3 fired at from Zoljas and Osas.
4 A. Well, they fired from all sorts of weapons, although I didn't see
5 them. All I know is that they managed to kill people inside the warehouse.
6 Q. Page 2, paragraph 3, you say that fire came from Zoljas and Osas.
7 Are you withdrawing and recanting this statement?
8 A. I don't know what they fired from, whether Osas, Zoljas,
9 machine-guns, hand-grenades. All sorts of fire was coming. I just hid
10 in a corner and prayed to God.
11 Q. Did this shooting cause any fire inside the storehouse?
12 A. I didn't see any fires breaking out whilst I was there. I don't
13 know about later.
14 Q. (redacted)
15 (redacted) you said that 2.000 people had been killed but that
16 then, later on, when you spoke with the OTP, you said that was a mistake?
17 A. That's not what I said. All I said was that I heard that about
18 2.000 people were in Lolici. And among those who were brought to the
19 warehouse, I survived, and (redacted) also survived but he was later
20 killed in Baljkovica, some 70 days later, he stepped onto a mine. (redacted)
23 (redacted). He jumped through the window and
24 managed to survive and reach Zepa. He spent the whole day lying under
25 the window wounded. And he said that nobody was paying any attention to
1 him because they took him for dead.
2 Q. Thank you. Were these bodies really covered by hay, as you had
3 heard someone saying that?
4 A. Whatever bodies were left there were not dragged away. Instead,
5 they were covered with hay, and then they set it on fire. And I was
6 thinking I don't want to be burned alive.
7 Q. During that night, was anyone dragging the bodies away?
8 A. They did it during day-time, until dusk. When it became dark,
9 they parked the loader and they said, Throw hay across and over the
10 bodies. I think I managed to escape on the night between the 14th and
11 the 15th, together with (redacted). There was a young lad and I
12 pleaded with him to agree to -- for me to join him, but he didn't want to
13 do that. (redacted) and I reached the asphalt road, and then on the
14 right-hand side, somebody said, Stop. But I threw myself onto the
15 ground, and when he shouted at me three times, Get up, get up, and get
16 up, I ran to the river, and I drank some water. (redacted) ran after
17 me but I couldn't communicate with him because he was deaf. And then
18 through a corn field, there was a path there. We reached the river. I
19 again went down to the river to cool myself and to drink some water. The
20 two of us sat under a tree, and then I heard a burst of fire coming from
21 the storehouse, and this one never appeared again.
22 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Just out of an abundance of caution,
23 Ms. West, if you could take a look whether we need a redaction on
24 line 3 -- on previous page.
25 Please continue.
5 MS. WEST: And may we move to private session.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
7 [Private session]
8 [Open session]
9 JUDGE KWON: Do you need a break, sir? Is it -- are you okay?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have a toothache.
11 JUDGE KWON: How much more do you have, Mr. Karadzic? Your time
12 is almost up.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll do my best to finish before
14 the end of the session, but the witness is verbose and he provides
15 lengthy answers and it depends on him as well.
16 JUDGE KWON: You spent -- you wasted most of your time. And then
17 you say you need more? It is not acceptable.
18 I will consult the Registrar how much time you have left.
19 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
20 JUDGE KWON: I'm told that you have five minutes left,
21 Mr. Karadzic.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I'm not in charge of
23 the length of the answers. My questions are very concrete, and the
24 witness could provide short answers. He chooses to provide lengthy
25 answers, and I can't influence that. I can't interrupt the witness.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is not me who makes things
2 longer than necessary. You are the one who asks me questions that
3 require long answers.
4 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber will not argue with you, Mr. Karadzic.
5 You have five minutes.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Is it correct - and, please, provide as short answers as
9 possible - is it true that you stated that some people had survived the
10 shooting on the 13th in the evening and that they were killed on the
11 14th in the morning? Because on the 14th in the morning, fire was opened
13 A. In the morning they asked if there are any survivors and if there
14 were, to come out and to be taken to hospital. A few of them did come
15 out. I don't know how many. I don't know who. I didn't see them. And
16 they were killed.
17 Q. How do you know that?
18 A. How do I know? Because fire was opened and from then on nobody
19 ever saw them again. If I had come out, maybe I would have gone missing
20 as well.
21 Q. How many people survived? How many actually responded on the
22 14th in the morning?
23 A. Sir, I did not count heads. I -- would you have counted head if
24 you were in my shoes at that time?
25 Q. Which asphalt did they wash and why?
1 A. I don't know. I suspect there was blood on the asphalt. I'm
2 sure that they didn't wash it because the weather was dry and the asphalt
3 was dry.
4 Q. Did they wash the asphalt on the street or the asphalt in
5 front --
6 A. In front of the warehouse. There was a tank full of water, and
7 they used the hose to wash the asphalt.
8 Q. You said that you spent 24 hours under the dead bodies?
9 A. Perhaps 24 hours, if not longer. And after midnight, when I
10 could no longer hear any voices in front of the warehouse, I started
11 moving. I stood up. And perhaps I spent an hour or so sitting down
12 because I had pins and needles in my legs. And in my arms as well.
13 Q. Thank you. That night, between the 14th and the 15th, you saw
14 the machinery and you say that you could even see the colour because the
15 weather was clear.
16 A. What colour?
17 Q. You said that the machinery was yellow; right?
18 A. I don't remember the colour of the machinery. I found myself
19 next to a loader. It was not cloudy. The sky was clear. I did not
20 observe the machinery. I didn't pay much attention to the machinery, but
21 I saw a soldier on the left side. I did not see the soldier on the right
22 side until the moment he actually stopped me.
23 Q. You said that in your statement provided on -- in 2003, on the
24 14th of July, on page 1248, where you say that the vehicles were yellow.
25 And you also said in open session when you were examined by Mr. Cayley on
1 the 10th of April, 2000, on page 2467, that the visibility was good at
2 the time because the sky was clear.
3 A. Yes, the sky was, indeed, clear. There was no moonlight. But as
4 for the colours, you can say whatever. That they were green or blue or
5 yellow. I was not interested in any of the colours. All I was
6 interested in was my own life and how to save myself.
7 Q. Thank you. And you managed to move from the warehouse. You
8 walked some 200 or 300 metres away. That's what you stated.
9 A. I don't know how far it was but then I heard three bursts of fire
10 near the warehouse and that person from Lolici also never reappeared
11 after that. He went missing forever.
12 Q. However, the sky was clear and then it started raining and you
13 hid --
14 A. Yes, it started raining during the night. We were still not
15 talking about rain. And when the rain started falling, we hid under a
16 tree. We were wet. The day broke. He was familiar with the terrain.
17 And if he had told me, Let's go to Kravica, I would have followed him
18 because I didn't know where I was. He was dragging me along for five
19 days. I found some persons from Bratunac, Kasim and Sacir, and they told
20 me, Let's go to Zepa. One man from Srebrenica told me that there is --
21 there's hope in Zepa because Zepa hadn't fallen. The ambushes are not
22 that strong and he said that he knew the road to Baljkovica. He didn't
23 want to Zepa, I didn't want to Baljkovica. I didn't know the road there,
24 and that's how I decided to join Sacir and Kasim, and I went in the
25 direction of Zepa.
1 Q. Thank you. For the benefit of the participants, in the statement
2 provided on 14 July 2003, on page 1226, you stated that you moved some
3 200 to 300 metres from the warehouse, and then you also stated that it
4 started raining. So you were not far from the warehouse and then it
5 started raining from clear skies.
6 A. Listen, I'm not God to say, Now it's going to rain, now it's
7 going to be a clear sky. And you're not God either. And I don't want to
8 pretend that I'm son of God either.
9 Q. Thank you. And then in the river you saw some dead bodies above
10 Jelah. You saw eight dead bodies. Jelah is a bit further from Kravica.
11 A. Yes, on the hilltop above Jelah. And those bodies were later
12 found. They were discovered.
13 Q. Thank you. From the 15th onwards, until the 26th of July or even
14 the 3rd of August, you hid in the woods, right?
15 A. I arrived Zepa on the 29th of July. Zepa fell. I was there
16 seven days. I knew the area pretty well. From Bijeli Voda to Vratar, I
17 knew the area very well. I returned again to Srebrenica, and until the
18 9th of September, I was hiding in the forest.
19 Q. And then you also visited your village?
20 A. Yes, I visited all the villages. I was looking for food because
21 I didn't have any food to eat.
22 Q. And then you went into the direction of Kladanj.
23 A. Yes, then we decided to go in the direction of Kladanj because
24 there was no food left in our villages, and some ten of us started
25 walking. One stayed behind in Zutica. There was nine of us. We didn't
1 know the road. We were wandering around like bovine. We started on the
2 9th, and on the 18th we arrived in Kladanj.
3 JUDGE KWON: Now, Mr. Karadzic, wrap up your cross-examination.
4 Your last question.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. While you were hiding in the woods, while you were visiting Zepa
7 and when you were walking from Zepa to Kladanj, did you encounter any
8 Serbs, either civilians or soldiers?
9 A. Yes. In the forest whose name I don't know, we hit an ambush,
10 but they didn't show us. They were patrolling a hilltop and they passed
11 by us. We crossed that hill. We came to a brook and we saw two dead
12 bodies in the brook. And from there, when we arrived at another hilltop,
13 we didn't know where we were. And we saw smoke coming out from some
15 And then it started raining again. We hid ourselves in a cave.
16 It was already dusk. We could hear them felling trees and making fire in
17 the bunkers. We decided to go through there, between two bunkers. We
18 came to a macadam road and we followed that road, and then we spotted a
19 torch-light in a bunker and one of our party stepped on a branch. That
20 branch broke and cracked, resembling the sound of a pistol, and they
21 opened fire at us from that bunker. We managed to squeeze past the
22 bunkers and we waited for day to break, and then we started walking down
23 a steep slope. We heard bursts of fire and individual bullets. There
24 was obviously a separation line there. We returned to the hilltop and
25 then I looked at another hilltop and I saw some trees there, and I
1 thought maybe this could be a village.
2 We started walking towards that village, and we -- we could -- we
3 walked through that forest and we arrived at a brook. And on the birch
4 tree it says "Huso," that was carved in the tree. And there was an
5 arrow. So we followed that arrow. Although we suspected that this
6 might -- may have been a trap. And then we came to another brook and we
7 suspected that there was somebody there. We returned from that brook,
8 some 10 to 12 metres into -- into an area where we saw a bunker very
9 close by. We saw smoke, and that's where we were sitting for some time.
10 And then all of a sudden, we heard somebody shouting, Huso come here.
11 And then one of us jumped and said, If are you a Muslim, come here. And
12 he said, I am from Srebrenica. He came to us. He was a soldier but did
13 not have a uniform, and we asked him where he was from and he said he was
14 from Vlasenica and that his name was Meho. And then I asked him, If you
15 are from Vlasenica, do you know Salko Redzic? And he said that was a
16 very close neighbour and a close relative. I asked, Do you know anything
17 about Salko? And he said Salko got killed.
18 We came to their bunker. They give us coffee, they gave us
19 lunch, and then from there they took us to a place called Taric [phoen],
20 near Kladanj.
21 Q. So that was a Muslim bunker?
22 A. Yes, that was a Muslim bunker. And they asked where we had
23 crossed and we told him that we had crossed on the hilltop, and he told
24 us that that hilltop was called Sokolina. I had not known that before
1 Q. Thank you very much, Witness. I have no more time.
2 JUDGE KWON: Ms. West, do you have any re-examination?
3 MS. WEST: I do, and it's quite brief.
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
5 Re-examination by Ms. West:
6 Q. Sir, earlier, starting at about page 38 of the transcript, there
7 was a discussion of a statement that you gave in October 1995. We don't
8 need to bring the statement up again.
9 I'm just going to read the quote again that we talked about.
10 It's written:
11 "I heard that was an agricultural warehouse. The building was
12 big with a yellow facade with a porter's lodge on the left of the
13 entrance to the warehouse. The building was completely empty inside, and
14 when we went inside we had to sit on the concrete floor."
15 Witness, is it possible that what was meant here from your
16 interview was that the warehouse was completely empty of equipment but,
17 nonetheless, was full of people?
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that this is too much.
19 MS. WEST: I can strike that --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was full of people and there was
21 no equipment at all.
22 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Yes.
23 MS. WEST:
24 Q. So, Mr. Witness, when you went inside, do you remember seeing any
25 equipment, or vehicles, or items?
1 A. Where I entered, there was not just one warehouse, there were
2 several warehouses. There was no equipment there at all. Just people.
3 MS. WEST: Can we have P0 --
4 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Mr. Karadzic, if you wish we can
5 receive this document, this statement of this witness.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Gladly, Excellency. I would like
7 to tender this statement and you can't see in that statement that he was
8 a soldier. He somehow kept quiet about that.
9 MS. WEST: [Overlapping speakers] ...
10 JUDGE KWON: That's unnecessary part. We will receive 1D5577.
11 Under seal.
12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D2255, under seal.
13 MS. WEST: May we now have P4270.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I intervene, please, 1D5577.
15 Two 5s, two 7s.
16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
17 MS. WEST: P4270, page 30.
18 Q. Sir, earlier today, beginning at page 32, there was a discussion
19 about ammunition belts and your observations of seeing people with
20 ammunition belts while you were in the area of the meadow and the road.
21 Do you see the photo in front of you, the one that is indicated
22 A, the one on the left-hand side?
23 Sir, can you see a photo in front of you?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you. Now I don't -- I'm not asking you about these people
1 in the photo, but on it, the man on the right-hand side, we see what
2 appears to be an -- ammunition belts criss-crossing his chest.
3 Does this look familiar to you?
4 A. I don't know him. I don't know them.
5 Q. That's fine. I'm not interested in who they are. What I'm
6 interested in is what's on his body.
7 A. I can't tell you that I know them. I don't. I don't know them.
8 And it was not me who put those ammunition belts on him.
9 Q. Thank you, sir.
10 MS. WEST: I have nothing else.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Wouldn't it be fair to ask if this
12 is an ammunition for an automatic rifle.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What ammunition?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In those ammunition belts?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what these are for. I
16 never had an automatic rifle. I know what I had. I had my hunting
18 JUDGE KWON: Unless my colleagues have questions for you, sir,
19 this concludes your evidence as the last witness for the Prosecution in
20 this case. And, on behalf of the Chamber and the Tribunal, I would like
21 to thank you for your coming to The Hague yet again to give it.
22 Now you're free to go.
23 Shall we excuse -- if you could excuse yourself.
24 Yes, we'll draw the blind.
25 [The witness withdrew]
1 JUDGE KWON: Probably we can continue.
2 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
3 JUDGE KWON: Just a couple of matters before we adjourn.
4 Mr. Tieger, now are you in a position to give the position of the
5 OTP as regards the request to append translation report to Exhibit 976.
6 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Mr. President. Of course, we have no problem
7 with the content of that CLSS filing; however, we do not consider it a
8 proper expedient to attach it to an exhibit. It is a -- the exhibit
9 consists of the underlying document and the translation. That
10 translation stands as indicated by CLSS. The filing is available as
11 requested by the Court for reference by the parties at any point and may
12 well be referenced and by either party. But I don't think we should
13 embark on a new approach.
14 So for that reason we don't agree with the motion.
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
16 This is the Chamber's ruling.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE KWON: Having examined the CLSS's memorandum as well as the
19 parties' submissions, the Chamber notes that the B/C/S original is clear
20 that the object of the verb "to force" is "the enemy" due to the
21 grammatical construction.
22 The Chamber does not find that the English translation is clear
23 in that respect in that it leaves open the possibility that both "the
24 enemy" and "the Muslim population" would be the object of the verb "to
1 The Chamber, therefore, asks the CLSS to provide a revised
2 translation of that portion of Exhibit P976 so that it reflects the B/C/S
3 original accurately.
14 [Private session]
13 [Open session]
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I now have to ask whether there's any matters
15 to be raised.
16 Yes, Ms. West, first -- yes, Ms. West.
17 MS. WEST: Just some corrections for the transcript, please,
18 before we forget them.
19 Page 31, line 21, it should be Lolici.
20 Page 6, line 13, it should be Fadil, not Fadir with an R.
21 And then also - I can do this in open session - page 43, line 22,
22 the witness said: "And then there was a man called ..." The name is not
23 yet on it. It will be, and I would ask that it be redacted.
24 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
1 Yes, Mr. Tieger.
2 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Just two quick matters. Number one, I'd like -- it's clear that
4 given the nature of the motion we would ask for a word extension for the
5 filing with respect to one of the bar table submissions. I've discussed
6 that with Mr. Robinson. He has no objection. The two such additional
7 filings --
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes -- fine. Very well.
9 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.
10 JUDGE KWON: It is granted.
11 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 The final thing I wanted to mention was that, as the Court is
13 aware, the parties have adopted a process in connection with the bar
14 table submissions which involved a good deal of exchange of information
15 before it was filed with -- with the Chamber in the hopes of making the
16 work easier, reducing the number of submissions or at least refining any
17 arguments about the items involved. That process has been necessarily
18 abbreviated for the final motions we will be filing which may heighten
19 the risk of a need for a reply once we've received the response, and I
20 just wanted to -- to note that.
21 And with that, I -- I thank the Court for its time at the closing
22 portion of the case.
23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
24 Mr. Robinson.
25 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. I just don't want to let this
1 opportunity to pass without thanking on behalf of Dr. Karadzic all of the
2 people who have participated in the trial up to this point and
3 particularly to commend Dr. Karadzic who has cross-examined almost
4 200 witnesses for over 741 hours during the two years that we've been
5 doing this all by himself, which I think is a remarkable achievement.
6 And he's still very healthy, has a tremendous amount of energy, and we're
7 all looking forward to conducting a lot of direct examination during the
8 next phase of the case.
9 Thank you.
10 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Mr. President, we have -- obviously share in
11 the appreciation for the extraordinary efforts of everyone involved. We
12 have tried where possible to convey that directly, but, of course, I
13 didn't want any inference to be left that because we hadn't been heard
14 publicly on this, we didn't share the appreciation for all of the
15 extraordinary efforts involved.
16 Sorry to raise it, but I didn't want to allow any misimpression.
17 We thank all involved.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
19 Now hearing is now adjourned.
20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.59 a.m.,
21 sine die.