1 Monday, 22 October 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes, good morning everyone.
7 Good morning, Ms. West. Please continue.
8 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
10 MR. ROBINSON: Yes. Before we continue with the witness, I would
11 just like to put something on the record that happened since our last
12 sitting and that is on Tuesday of last week we disclosed the identity of
13 17 of our witnesses by filing Rule 92 ter notifications, and on Friday I
14 received an e-mail from one of those witnesses indicating that his family
15 in Sarajevo had been threatened and he was no longer willing to testify.
16 So we informed the Chamber and OTP of this and also reported it to the
17 Victims and Witnesses Section. And on Friday I -- afternoon I met with
18 the Victims and Witnesses Section protection officers and --
19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson, sorry to interrupt you. Do you wish
20 to continue in open session in the presence of this witness?
21 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, we want the public to be
22 aware -- want this to be a matter of public record.
23 JUDGE KWON: Are you not seeking specific remedy for that?
24 MR. ROBINSON: No, not in this case, but we're trying to deter
25 this from happening again.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue, Mr. Robinson.
3 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, thank you, Mr. President. So we informed the
4 protection officers of the Victims and Witnesses Section on Friday
5 afternoon and they promised to follow-up on this matter. And we
6 conducted our own investigation also over the weekend. As the Chamber
7 knows, under Rule 77 interfering with the administration of justice and a
8 witness is punishable by up to seven years' imprisonment and we had not
9 had any single instance of interference or threat or intimidation during
10 the Prosecution case, and we're concerned that in the first week of the
11 Defence case we already have such an incident. And I wanted to nip it in
12 the bud by serving notice at this time that such incidents would be taken
13 very seriously. And we would ask the Chamber and the Prosecution as well
14 as the Bosnian authorities for its full co-operation when such incidents
15 occur. Thank you. That's all I wanted to say.
16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
17 Yes, Ms. West.
18 I forgot to inform you that we are sitting pursuant to Rule 15
19 bis with Judge Lattanzi away due to her urgent personal matters.
20 MS. WEST: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning,
21 Your Honours.
22 WITNESS: DUSAN SKRBA [Resumed]
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 Cross-examination by Ms. West: [Continued]
25 Q. Good morning, Mr. Skrba.
1 A. Good morning.
2 Q. I just want to go back to a couple of the things that we spoke
3 about last week, and on Thursday in our discussion of proportionate fire
4 you mentioned hospitals. And at transcript 29123 you said that you did
5 not retaliate against hospitals because we were always afraid of
6 inflicting major civilian casualties if we had done that.
7 I then asked you whether there were other locations in the city
8 that you considered completely off limits, and at the time you didn't
9 answer my question so I'd like to try it again. Do you have any other
10 examples like hospitals of locations that were off limits for firing?
11 A. Hospitals, bus stations, railway stations and rail lines,
12 schools, and all the areas where larger groups of civilians tend to
13 gather, those were the facilities that we didn't target.
14 Q. When you say "all the areas where larger groups of civilians tend
15 to gather," what exactly do you mean by that?
16 A. I was born and raised there, so I knew where bus stops were,
17 where tram stations were, big supermarkets where people went to get their
18 supplies, and wherever the frequency of the civilian population was quite
19 high, those were the areas that we did not expose to fire.
20 Q. And so taking, for example, again the hospital, how near to the
21 hospital would you consider a reasonable distance to fire at?
22 A. Generally speaking, we did not open fire at areas around
23 hospitals, be it 500 metres or 1 kilometre. In general terms, areas
24 around hospitals were not our firing targets. I already told you that
25 the military hospital and Kosevo hospital were among them.
1 Q. Now, you just said "be it 500 metres or 1 kilometre," are you
2 suggesting within --
3 A. Yes, yes.
4 Q. So within 1 kilometre of a hospital, you would not fire within 1
5 kilometre around it?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And this distance would be applicable as well to all those other
8 areas you mentioned, you spoke about railway stations, bus stations,
9 areas where large groups of civilians tend to gather?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, I understand that the reason you did this is because you did
12 not want to potentially kill any civilians, but were there any
13 circumstances where you would have accepted the risk of civilian deaths?
14 A. Even in such cases I wouldn't open fire if I thought that the
15 civilian population was at risk.
16 Q. On Thursday you spoke about preparation regarding firing at page
17 transcript 29111. You said that there was simple preparation,
18 abbreviated preparation, and full preparation. Do you remember talking
19 about that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So let's start with full preparation. Can you tell us what that
23 A. Full preparation involves bulletins, the correct co-ordinations
24 of the targets, topographic co-ordinations, and when you have all that
25 you fire one or two shells to the target that you want to reach. But the
1 preparation is rather long. You have to have the right temperature of
2 the year, the right ammunition preparation, the charge, and the data must
3 not be more than two hours old.
4 Q. Okay. So you said -- in the beginning you said you needed the
5 correct co-ordinates of the targets, the topographic co-ordinates. Would
6 you also need to know what the objective was? Besides just the
7 geographical location, would you need to know what the objective of the
8 target was?
9 A. I told you, this was done based on what I received from my
10 observers or what I received from my superior command. They had to know
11 what the objective was, was it a trench or a piece of weaponry, and based
12 on that it would be decided what to do because you had to know what kind
13 of weaponry was used on the other side, what kind of weaponry fire was
14 being opened from by the enemy.
15 Q. Tell us what abbreviated preparation included.
16 A. The abbreviated preparation excludes the air temperature, and if
17 we couldn't do that we used a so-called simple preparation which involved
18 topographic preparation. When you had that, you fired one or two shells
19 and then you correct fire. If you managed to hit your target in the
20 first go, then you didn't do anything. And in order to reach the target,
21 you have to have an area around it of 50 metres. If you are within that
22 range --
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to intervene. I'm not sure
24 that this sentence is correct: [In English] "If you managed to hit your
25 target in the first go, then you didn't do anything." Then you didn't do
2 I think the witness didn't say that.
3 MS. WEST:
4 Q. Sir, let me ask you again. You were speaking about simple
5 preparation and you said it involved topographic preparation. Tell us
6 again what that included.
7 A. Simple preparation means that you have to have all the elements
8 from the topographic map, you fire a shell after you have calculated all
9 the elements, and then you fire one shell towards the enemy and towards
10 your target. A successful hit is anything within the range of 50 metres.
11 Q. So as I understand it, simple preparation just means having the
12 location and then attempting to fire at that particular location?
13 A. Yes, but you have to have a topographic map in a certain scale,
14 25.000 or 50.000, and you have to be precise when transferring all the
15 elements. You have to know whether your observers have calculated the
16 azimuth, the level of the observation line, and everything else.
17 Q. So the other day when we were speaking about the type of fire
18 that your unit would engage in, you told us that it was in all cases
19 defensive retaliatory fire, you gave us one exception, but it was mostly
20 retaliatory fire that had to be very quick. It that it was -- it took
21 five to ten minutes to retaliate. In those cases were you referring to
22 this type of preparation, simple preparation? Is that the type of
23 preparation you employed?
24 A. Simple preparation can be done within the scope of five minutes,
25 hence the term: Simple.
1 Q. Yet full preparation would take much longer; correct?
2 A. Full preparation takes much longer. You have to measure the air
3 temperature, the gunpowder temperature, this must not be older than two
4 hours. The temperature changes from let's say in the morning until
5 the --
6 THE ACCUSED: May I be of any help to say
7 "metal [indiscernible]," metal means "metrological elements for the
8 fire." The transcript so far didn't comprise this expression.
9 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Let us continue.
10 MS. WEST: Thank you.
11 Q. And just so I'm absolutely clear, in the cases where you were
12 firing in retaliation, in those situations you would use simple
14 A. Yes.
15 MS. WEST: May I have 65 ter 23928.
16 Q. And this is a document from August 1994. It's from the corps
17 command and it's an order for full combat-readiness.
18 JUDGE KWON: Ms. West.
19 MS. WEST: Yes.
20 JUDGE KWON: I was told it was not released yet.
21 MS. WEST: May I have a moment, Mr. President.
22 Can we have P01614, please.
23 Q. And this is going to be the implementation order for the document
24 that we will see in a moment. And if we can go to page 2, please, this
25 is to the command of the 3rd Infantry Battalion, but on page 2 of
1 this - and again it's August 1994 - under paragraph 9 we see:
2 "Co-ordinate actions with the units of the 1st Mixed Artillery
3 Battalion of the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade and plan fire at the
4 eastern slopes ..."
5 Mr. Skrba, that refers to your unit; correct?
6 A. Well, it says here Major Goran and that's not me.
7 Q. Correct. And the direction to Major Goran is to co-ordinate
8 actions with your unit. Do you have a memory of this?
9 A. I did not receive this order.
10 Q. Again I understand that, sir. My question is: Do you have a
11 memory in August of 1994 of this co-ordination for full combat-readiness?
12 A. I don't remember. I did not read this order and maybe at that
13 time I was somewhere else in another part of the front line.
14 Q. Can we go to page 1 of this order, please. Even though you say
15 you didn't receive this order, I just want to talk to you about some
16 language in this order. It's already something that we've already
17 addressed once. And under paragraph 1 it says:
18 "I hereby order:
19 "All 2nd Sarajevo Light Infantry Brigade units and positions and
20 in areas of disposition, MUP units in the zone of responsibility, work
21 obligation units, and the population are to be placed at full b/g."
22 And then it says:
23 "At all costs stop possible enemy attacks on any section of the
24 brigade's line of contact."
25 Now, the other day we spoke about targeting language and you were
1 saying that it has to be very specific, and you also spoke about
2 proportionate fire. Would you agree with me that the phrase "at all
3 costs" is very different than the proportionate fire that you spoke of
4 adhering to?
5 A. Obviously "at all costs" means that in case of an enemy attack we
6 shouldn't allow their passage through our area. So the means were
7 different. Fire had to be more fierce. If we had such targets, we would
8 fire a lot more than just one or two shells that we would fire in other
9 situations when we wanted to avoid collateral damage. This is a
10 different situation. This is a full enemy attack.
11 Q. Okay. And you just said "if we had such targets," but here it
13 "At all costs stop possible enemy attacks ..."
14 Here there aren't even actual targets, it's just possible
15 targets. Is this type of language something that you would find to be
16 appropriate and consistent with what you spoke about the other day?
17 A. I apologise. However, if you find yourself in a situation when
18 the enemy wants to break through our forward defence line, why else would
19 we have been there if not to stop such an attempt.
20 Q. Sir, that's not responsive to my question. My question is: Do
21 you find this language to be in keeping with what you described to us to
22 be detailed targeted language at specific locations?
23 A. This order was issued in a totally different segment of warfare.
24 It refers to a possible enemy attack or a breakthrough. If the enemy
25 wanted to break through our lines and enter our territory, and this is a
1 completely different situation to the one that I described previously.
2 It is not the same thing to open fire on the front line in order to
3 interrupt the cease-fire on the one hand and to stop the enemy who is
4 attempting to break through your forward defence lines. The two
5 situations are completely different.
6 Q. Okay. Then let's go to what we were speaking about the other
7 day, which was specific targets. And when we ended on Thursday I had
8 asked you to look at the map that I gave you and that was 65 ter 23918,
9 and specifically we're looking at map 3.
10 And when we ended off I asked you to take a look at this map and
11 to tell us where the tank was located that you referred to in paragraph
12 18 of your statement. And, sir, if you can go to -- you can turn the
13 page --
14 A. I can do it on this map too. Do you want this one?
15 Q. There you go. That one.
16 A. The tank was below Hum and it moved around the curves depending
17 on what it wanted to target.
18 Q. And we will just ask the usher if he can turn on the screen so
19 you can actually mark this on the screen in front of you.
20 A. [Marks]
21 Q. So it's your testimony that that's where the tank was located
22 that you spoke about in paragraph 18?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And was that tank located there throughout the entire war?
25 A. I don't know, I wasn't there. However, it opened fire from
2 Q. Well, in paragraph 18 of your statement you said:
3 "Velesici May 1992 a tank during the entire war ..."
4 Was it located there during the entire war.
5 A. It opened fire from there in 1992, in 1993, in 1994, but I don't
6 know whether it was stationed there all the time or perhaps it was moved
7 to some other lines. When it did open fire, however, it opened it from
8 this location.
9 Q. Okay. To make sure I understand, it's your testimony that when
10 it opened fire it was located there, but you do not understand that it
11 was actually located there throughout the entire war?
12 A. When it opened fire on Zlatiste and Vrace on our forward defence
13 lines, that's where it fired from. I don't know whether it moved further
14 away from here, downward, or somewhere else, I don't know. I wasn't
15 there all the time.
16 Q. Just to be sure I understand what you're saying, at line 12 you
18 "... I don't know. I wasn't there all the time."
19 Did you say "I wasn't there all the time" or "it wasn't there all
20 the time"?
21 A. I will repeat for the thousandth time. I was not there in order
22 to know whether it was there all the time; however, it opened fire from
23 that location in 1992, in 1993, in 1994.
24 Q. During those same years, how often did you shoot at that tank?
25 A. I can't give you the exact figure, but perhaps seven or eight
1 times -- six to eight times I suppose.
2 Q. Over the course of 1992, 1993, 1994, and into 1995?
3 A. I did not mention 1995 at all.
4 Q. Okay. My mistake. So three years. And obviously you failed to
5 destroy it because you kept on shooting; correct?
6 A. The crew was good. The drivers were good I suppose.
7 Q. I want to look at -- I want to review what type of targeting went
8 on in Velesici to see what you knew about it.
9 MS. WEST: P01522, please.
10 Q. And let me back up. Can you put your signature on this and give
11 us a date. The date is October 22nd, please.
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MS. WEST: P015 --
15 JUDGE KWON: This will be next Prosecution exhibit.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P5935, Your Honours.
17 MS. WEST: Thank you.
18 And now P01522.
19 Q. This is another intercept between General Mladic and the
20 gentleman Potpara. We saw an intercept between the two of them the other
21 day as well. I know you're not a party to it, this intercept, but I want
22 to ask you about it. So we have the B/C/S and I'll just read along in
23 English and it will come up. In this they're on the phone and
24 General Mladic says:
25 "What's the news?
1 "A. No news.
2 "Mladic: Are you firing something?
3 "A. No, I'm not firing anything.
4 "Mladic: Is there shelling close to you?
5 "A. No shelling close to me.
6 "Where is the shelling going on?
7 "A. I don't know. This way up towards the tobacco factory
9 "Mladic: Have Velesici been shelled?
10 "A. Yep.
11 "Mladic: Have they been hit there?
12 "A. Yes, they have.
13 "There will be more of it there.
14 "A. All right."
15 Now, I'm just going to stop there. When Mladic said "has
16 Velesici been shelled," this is in the past tense, but this is a period
17 of time, end of May 1992, in which you were involved, what would have
18 been the target in Velesici?
19 A. I don't know. I couldn't say what target is at stake on the
20 basis of this interception, but if that's the 29th, then I know that
21 Velesici was shelled and over 80 per cent of the population was civilian
22 and there were Serbians. Then there were attempts on the part of the
23 Muslim forces to drive out the Serbs and to take territory if it happened
24 during that period of time.
25 Q. So would you agree that this language suggests that there is no
1 specific target other than the town itself?
2 A. I couldn't agree. I'm not familiar with the conversation that
3 concerns opening fire, the target, the reasons for which fire was opened.
4 On the basis of this intercept, it's not possible for me to draw any
6 Q. Okay. So I'd like to go to the day before to see if we can get
7 any more information about this.
8 MS. WEST: Can I have P1521, and this is May 28th. And if I can
9 have page 2 of the English.
10 Q. This is another intercept between Mladic and Mirko Vukasinovic.
11 And in the first page they're just sort of handling introductions, but
12 when we get to the second page Mladic sayings:
13 "Do not shell the barracks. Can you reach Velesici?
14 "A. Yes.
15 "Do you have a gun pointed at some target there?
16 "Yes, I do.
17 "Mladic: You do or you do not?
18 "A. I do.
19 "Mladic: How soon can you fire?
20 "A. Well, I could fire in five or ten minutes, no sooner than
22 "Mladic: Tell me, can you shell Bascarsija?
23 "Yes, I can."
24 And then Mladic says:
25 "I beg your pardon."
1 Sir, again, you're not privy to these conversations, but
2 nonetheless you've told the Court that also you were responsible for
3 targeting a tank in the same area for three years. Can you agree with me
4 that at least from this conversation it appears that General Mladic has
5 no information on any particular target, only some target?
6 A. Well, I wouldn't agree because they can probably see Velesici and
7 see whether there's any fighting there. They didn't ask for that part of
8 the town to be shelled for no reason. There must have been some kind of
9 reason for this.
10 Q. Sir, we're going to go to the next town or section of town that
11 you mentioned in your paragraph 18, and if we can go back to 65 ter
12 23918, we will go to map 5, which is Ciglane. So you can turn the
13 page --
14 A. I can use this too.
15 Q. But if you turn the page you'll get a bigger -- there you go.
16 Now, this is the area on the other side of the tunnel from Velesici;
18 A. It's in the town in the direction of the hospital.
19 Q. And we don't need to do this in e-court, but if you just turn
20 your page you're going to see a satellite version of this same town. Do
21 you see that? We don't need to do it in e-court. And looking at those
22 two maps, can you tell us what the general nature of the area was? Was
23 it a residential area? Was it an industrial area?
24 A. Well, this is a residential area exclusively.
25 Q. And if you can go back to the map we see on the screen right now,
1 I think you had mentioned -- strike that.
2 Was there a hospital in Ciglane?
3 A. Well, by the entrance of the tunnel from which the tank would
4 come out there was no hospital.
5 Q. Okay. So if we can stop there on e-court, and I'll direct your
6 attention to the number 81 which is in the middle of the screen --
7 MS. WEST: And perhaps e-court can focus in on that 81 and that
8 126 in red numbers. Right there.
9 Q. Now, that's the area of the hospital and the college of medicine;
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The witness mumbled
12 something but it was not audible.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what you want me to
14 say. What sort of answer would you like? What was your question?
15 MS. WEST:
16 Q. My question was -- regarded a hospital, and my question was: In
17 the area of -- you see the numbers 81 and 126. To your knowledge is that
18 the area of the hospital?
19 A. Yes, I can see that.
20 Q. And is that where the hospital was located?
21 A. The hospital is 71 and this location has been marked as 81, the
22 medical faculty.
23 Q. Right. And I think in fact there are two hospitals. You're
24 correct. There's a 71 up in the corner of this map which is also a
25 hospital, but do you remember 81 also being a hospital as well?
1 A. That's the main part.
2 Q. All right.
3 A. I know that there was the medical faculty there. As to whether
4 there was a hospital in the medical faculty, I don't know. It's
5 possible, they could have done all sorts of things.
6 Q. Very good. That's --
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In line 19, line 19 is the answer.
8 It's not part of the question which what the transcript would lead one to
10 MS. WEST:
11 Q. Thank you. I just want to go back to something you just said.
12 When I started talking about this hospital, you said:
13 "Well, by the entrance of the tunnel from which the tank would
14 come out there was no hospital."
15 When you say "entrance of the tunnel the tank would come out,"
16 tell us a little bit more about that. Was the tank parked inside the
18 A. The tank was in the tunnel; that is certain. The tank that they
19 had seized from the French [as interpreted], the self-propelled gun.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to make a correction. They
21 seized the self-propelled gun from the French. They didn't seize the
22 tank from the French, only the self-propelled gun.
23 JUDGE KWON: Because of overlapping, the interpreters didn't get
24 it right.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wanted to say that the witness
1 said that they seized the self-propelled gun from the French. That
2 wasn't transcribed. It seemed as if it was the tank that had been seized
3 from the French.
4 JUDGE KWON: It was, it was transcribed, but it was not correctly
5 transcribed because of your intervention, Mr. Karadzic.
6 Yes, could you repeat your answer, Mr. Skrba.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They came out of the tunnel, the
8 tank, especially in 1991, and later the self-propelled gun seized from
9 the French, but they were parked in the tunnel.
10 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Q. This tank that you're describing, is this the same tank that you
12 noted in -- earlier in Velesici that you indicated on the map?
13 A. I don't think so. I don't think so. I think it's a different
15 Q. Okay. How often in your time in Sarajevo did you shoot at the
16 tank in Ciglane?
17 A. Well, six to eight times as was the case in Velesici during these
18 three or four years, but in 1994 and 1995 it's the French tank --
19 THE INTERPRETER: Says the witness.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That went into action more
21 frequently while they had ammunition and shells.
22 MS. WEST:
23 Q. And when you shot at that tank, you made sure that there were no
24 civilians around; correct?
25 A. Yes, of course. I had a look to make sure there weren't any
1 civilians, but the tank, when the tank goes into action they all flee --
2 I mean when their tank goes into action.
3 Q. And in paragraph 18 this was the only target that you mention in
4 Ciglane. Were there other targets in Ciglane?
5 A. Well, I didn't have any other targets. I didn't fire on any
6 other targets.
7 MS. WEST: May we have P0820, please, and for e-court that will
8 be page 59.
9 Q. The Trial Chamber has heard some evidence from a senior
10 United Nations military officer who said or confirmed at paragraph --
11 e-court page 59, please. Confirmed at paragraph 197 that in June of 1995
12 five people were injured when a shell hit the Ciglane outdoor market.
13 Mr. Skrba, can you tell us what the target was then in June of
14 1995 in Ciglane?
15 A. It's possible that the tank went into action again or the gun,
16 and then there was a defect when the gun fired the shell.
17 Q. Well, you were very specific in telling us that the tank was
18 only -- you only fired at the tank in 1992, 1993, and 1994. This is
20 A. I'm saying I don't know that I opened fire at the time, but if
21 anyone from the Serbian positions returned fire that was probably because
22 of the tank or the self-propelled gun coming out of the tunnel and
23 perhaps there was a technical error that related to the weather
24 conditions or the gunpowder and so on and so forth. So perhaps there was
25 something defective; however, I'm not familiar with that event.
1 Q. Okay. But earlier in your testimony when you were talking about
2 full preparation, the weather and the ammunition -- or excuse me, the
3 weather conditions or the gunpowder, those are things that would be
4 checked during full preparation - correct? - to ensure that the firing
5 would be accurate?
6 A. All this is checked, but if the gunpowder was wet when the weapon
7 was being loaded, if the temperatures are high, then the shell can fall
8 short of its target or it can be defective. It's like in the case of
9 doctors who make mistakes. For example, they cut into tissue too deeply
10 and then it's too late.
11 Q. But your answer is limited to occasions of full preparation.
12 When we spoke about simple preparation, none of this stuff was checked;
13 isn't that right?
14 A. Everything is checked. But, for example, if you have cases of
15 ammunition and you take the top case and it was raining, then the
16 gunpowder might be wet. So when you use that gunpowder to fire from a
17 weapon, the conditions have changed. So in spite of the fact that you
18 previously made checks, the shell can fall short of its target or it can
19 overreach its target.
20 Q. Thank you, sir. And I think we understand now the variables that
21 go into accurate targeting. But my point is earlier today you said in
22 terms of simple preparation none of this was done, none of this checking
23 was done. The only thing that happened was that you had a topographical
24 map, you had a location, and you fired to see if you were accurate.
25 Isn't that correct?
1 A. Yes. And we have observers who try to see where the shell falls.
2 This is why targeting is corrected in the artillery.
3 MS. WEST: May we go back to the map 65 ter 23918, and now we're
4 going to go to map 7, which is Bjelave. This is the next area that you
5 spoke about in paragraph 18. Thank you.
6 Q. We can see from this map the streets and the roads -
7 MS. WEST: And we don't need to do this in e-court.
8 Q. But if you just turn the page, you'll see the satellite version
9 of this same area. Can you describe the general nature of this area,
11 A. This is a civilian area, almost a hundred per cent. I think the
12 buildings are mostly residential buildings, but some are perhaps also
13 collectively owned buildings.
14 Q. And in paragraph 18 you pin-pointed this area, saying:
15 In June 1992 there were 120-millimetre mortars that you targeted.
16 Can you show us on this map by writing where those mortars were located?
17 A. Well, I didn't fire on this area, I never did. You can't claim
18 that I did. I only heard that there were mortars positioned there, but
19 my unit never fired on them. Others did. But I heard from my
20 colleagues, from neighbours, and so on and so forth that there were
21 120-millimetre mortars that were located there.
22 Q. Okay. We'll skip to the next one at paragraph 18.
23 MS. WEST: And if in e-court we can go to map 9, please.
24 Q. And this is when you discussed city hall. And in paragraph 18
25 you said you received information that city hall had been turned into an
1 ammunition dump -- depot and this was August of 1992. By looking at this
2 map can you pin-point where city hall is or the library?
3 MS. WEST: Apologies to the usher.
4 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
5 MS. WEST:
6 Q. Thank you very much. Now you call this city hall in your
7 statement, but this was the location of the library; correct?
8 A. That's what we called it.
9 Q. Okay. The information that you received, when exactly did you
10 receive it?
11 A. Well, perhaps at the beginning of August, information that there
12 were large warehouses in which ammunition was being kept there.
13 Q. And what was the source of the information?
14 A. Well, the source of information was their media, the television.
15 Q. You mean the source of your intelligence that it was being kept
16 as an ammunition depot was the television?
17 A. Yes, there was the news on two or three occasions in the evening
18 and you could see a lot of people walking around there carrying cases of
19 ammunition. As to whether they were carrying them to the positions or
20 taking them there, I don't know, but they were there in the vicinity and
21 they were caught on camera.
22 Q. All right. So at the end of August there --
23 A. At the beginning of August.
24 Q. So the information you received you received at the beginning of
25 August, but the actual shelling of the library was August 27th; correct?
1 A. I don't know because -- let me repeat what I have said. My unit
2 didn't shell any targets there. If other units from our army did, well,
3 it would be normal if this caught fire on the top, but it was on fire at
4 the bottom. So I'm wondering how that is possible. How can it be on
5 fire at the bottom level and not at the top, especially if what we're
6 dealing with is ammunition.
7 Q. So let's back up. The information that you understood that it
8 was an ammunition depot came from seeing on the television people walking
9 around carrying cases of ammunition in the vicinity; is that right?
10 A. Yes. Here you have the tram lines. It wasn't working at the
11 time, but you could see people walking around carrying these cases. This
12 could be seen from these observation posts.
13 Q. And you had no further information that the actual library --
14 A. No, no.
15 Q. And is it your testimony today that it was not your unit that
16 fired at the library, it was somebody else's unit?
17 A. Our unit wasn't assigned the task of firing on those targets.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I object. The witness didn't say
19 that some other unit opened fire. The witness said he doubted it was the
20 result of shelling because the fire was ground level; the top of the
21 building, the roof, hadn't caught fire.
22 JUDGE KWON: Well, in any event, Ms. West, this shelling of
23 library was stricken out from the indictment, wasn't it?
24 MS. WEST: Indeed it was, Your Honour, but this witness speaks of
25 it specifically in his statement so that's why I'm asking about it. In
1 addition, putting that aside, I think it's relevant to everything that
2 happened in Sarajevo.
3 JUDGE KWON: Shall we move on now?
4 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Q. Sir, just one more question about the area, not the library
6 itself. This area of the down-town -- or strike that --
7 JUDGE KWON: By the way, would you like to tender this marked
9 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President, I would.
10 Q. If you could put the date and your signature on this.
11 A. [Marks]
12 JUDGE KWON: So this will be Exhibit P5936.
13 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct, Your Honours.
14 MS. WEST:
15 Q. Mr. Skrba, I hadn't already asked you, but can you describe the
16 nature of this down-town area. What type of things were located there?
17 A. Well, the name of the town is a -- pretty densely populated town
18 mostly with some 20 to 30 per cent of collective housing units.
19 Otherwise, it's all single, individual, housing units.
20 MS. WEST: And if we could turn to map 11, please. It's two more
22 Q. We're now going to look at a map of Dobrinja. And map 11 is the
23 one that shows the roads. And if we can just turn the page - we don't
24 need to do this in e-court - you can see the satellite as well.
25 Mr. Skrba, please describe the nature of Dobrinja.
1 A. Dobrinja is a new neighbourhood built before the Olympic games in
2 1974 and it's exclusively housing facilities with collective
4 Q. And in paragraph 21 of your report you spoke about scheduled
5 incident G7 which was an incident in Dobrinja. And in that paragraph you
6 noted that at the -- you noted that the allegation is that 120-millimetre
7 mortars were fired at Dobrinja, and specifically you said at the
8 battalion level there were no 120-millimetre weapons but they were in the
9 MAD under my control in your unit, and I claim that no fire was opened
10 that day from 120-millimetre mortars for it would have to be in the
11 report of UNPROFOR observers who were on duty at my command post
12 around-the-clock and would have heard firing of a shell.
13 I want to talk about the UNPROFOR -- you called them UNPROFOR
14 officers who were there, because in another part of your statement at
15 paragraph 14 you said that these members were always on duty with you
16 around-the-clock. So my question is: What was the name of the UNMO most
17 at your command?
18 A. Lima 5 and they were there from the 1st of July, 1992, until the
19 end of the war.
20 Q. And do I understand correctly that your testimony is that those
21 military observers knew at what targets you were firing because they were
22 posted at your command?
23 A. Yes, they were there in the same room as me. They were on duty
24 there for 24 hours. They slept there too.
25 Q. Sir, are you suggesting that their presence had some effect on
1 your firing, as to whether you would fire at one target or whether you
2 would fire somewhere else?
3 A. We would inform them every time we fired. We never fired a shell
4 without informing them first. They were standing there with us, sitting
5 there, or if it was night they were sleeping there. We would be
6 sleeping, then if -- at night I would wake up, they would wake up, and
7 since they were sitting there with me they would hear exactly if one,
8 two, or three shells were fired and they would record that. During those
9 four years, they never said anything in terms of not approving or not
10 agreeing with my reports about everything that was fired in -- during the
12 MS. WEST: P01426, please. And may we have page 19, please.
13 Q. Mr. Skrba, this Court has heard evidence from senior military
14 observer particularly about Lima 5. And beginning at page 79 he says he
15 visited the Limas OPs. He's observed instances of what he believed to be
16 indiscriminate fire on the city with weapons, and I'll quote. He says:
17 "When you are at a gun site, and weapons fire, as an UNMO you are
18 not party to the range map which the commander is using to determine his
19 target. As a result, I always asked that my UN military observers to ask
20 local commanders what their target was, in an attempt to determine if it
21 was acceptable as a target or not. We were, by virtue of the system I
22 have described, only as effective as the answer I was given by the local
23 commander. They did not prevent us persisting in the attempt to reduce
24 the level of tension created upon the city by reducing the numbers of
25 rounds fired."
1 So, Mr. Skrba, my question is this: Do you agree that the only
2 way the military observers knew what the target was was if the commanders
3 told them what it was?
4 A. That is not correct.
5 Q. Let's look at an example of this and I'll ask you another
6 question. If we can go on to paragraph 80.
7 "On several occasions I personally brought such pressure to bear
8 on the local commanders concerning firing on the city. On occasions I
9 received answers that I regarded as unsatisfactory. I received answers
10 that were trivial, such as the commander telling me at the Lima 5
11 position, when firing his mortar rounds, that he was 'warming the
12 barrels.' I accept warming the barrels is a requirement if you have a
13 fire mission and you then proceed with that fire mission, but the
14 instances that I recall, the firing ceased after a few rounds, whether
15 because of my intervention or not, I cannot determine, but it rather
16 negated the original reason for firing the weapons in the first instance.
17 The rationale for firing the weapon was irrational and vague; I don't
18 think there was a specific target. On another particular occasion, I was
19 told that the three rounds that had been fired were one for each finger
20 of the Serb salute."
21 Mr. Skrba, the Lima 5 position was the position at your post;
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you would agree with me that the information the commander
25 gave this UNMO was not very informative, was it?
1 A. I cannot agree with that. I would like to face that person, if
2 necessary, so that we can look at each other in the eye. We were sitting
3 there together. He could see where the barrels were turned, where the
4 fire went, and he would take the number of fired shells from me or from
5 my deputy if I was not there. And he never made any kind of oral or
6 written objection to these reports. I don't want to keep repeating these
7 things. I don't want to say anything that did not happen.
8 Q. I'd like to turn to paragraph 17 of your statement, and in that
9 paragraph you talked about aerial bombs. You said:
10 "My unit had no contact with aerial bombs nor were they used;
11 i.e., launched in my zone on enemy military targets. Although the
12 brigade had a number of aerial bombs on stock, they were never used in
13 our zone of responsibility."
14 So you concede that the brigade did have aerial bombs; correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And when you say "they were never used in our zone of
17 responsibility," you're speaking about that area on the map that you
18 indicated for one of the Defence exhibit, that entire area that was under
19 your control?
20 A. Yes, I'm saying it was not used from that area and that the
21 aerial bombs that existed were found by my brigade at the end of the war.
22 They were never used. They remained in stock.
23 Q. So is your testimony no aerial bombs were used out of that zone
24 at all?
25 A. No aerial bombs were used as far as I know, and the ones that we
1 had within the brigade stayed unused and were found at the end of the war
2 because for that you would need to have special weapons, special
3 artillery to be able to fire them, and we didn't have that.
4 Q. How would you describe the accuracy of an air bomb?
5 A. I don't have any experience with that. I didn't do that even
6 during my military term of office or during the war. I really never
7 dealt with that, so I wouldn't wish to talk about it.
8 Q. Okay. So I know you say that you never personally dealt with it,
9 but because of your position you must have some experience, and let me
10 ask you this: Air bombs could only be directed at a general area;
12 A. I don't know. I didn't read the instructions on their use, so I
13 really cannot say much. I cannot answer that question. I never used
14 them. I never prepared them for use, so I really never dealt with them
15 and I never allowed anyone to use them in my area of responsibility.
16 Q. Well, Mr. Skrba, you'll have to forgive me but you were the
17 commander of this artillery unit. You've conceded that the brigade had
18 air bombs. Are you saying that you cannot in any way tell this Court now
19 whether they were accurate weapons or inaccurate weapons?
20 A. If I didn't deal with something, didn't use it, I cannot say
21 whether it's good or not good. You cannot say that you conducted
22 surgery, carried out surgery, on somebody if you did not.
23 Q. Well, I think this subject matter might be a little bit
24 different, so let's give you an example.
25 MS. WEST: P1310, please.
1 Q. This is a document dated April 1995, it's to the Main Staff.
2 It's from the chief of artillery of the SRK. Thank you. And in the
3 English it says:
4 "At the morning briefing ... the decision was taken to fire on
5 Donji Kotorac using air bombs."
6 The second paragraph is:
7 "The firing was supposed to be executed in the early evening
8 hours and all the necessary prep for the firing to be executed were to
9 have been made beforehand."
10 But then at paragraph 3 it talks about the assessment of all the
11 facilities in the immediate vicinity of the tunnel entrance, which in
12 this case was the target, and he says that:
13 "We have established through measuring carried out using
14 instruments that two UNPROFOR points are at most 200 metres away, while
15 the UNPROFOR observers are constantly moving from their ... stations
16 throughout the settlement ..."
17 And then in the next paragraph he additionally says:
18 "Our forward defence line is ... 500 metres away from the tunnel
19 entrance and the direction of fire is over the 'Kula' restaurant.
20 "Because I was unable to report this information to the commander
21 after reconnaissance, as he was in the zone of responsibility of the
22 Igman Brigade, I have abandoned the firing on account of it jeopardising
23 the security of our own forces and that of the UN forces."
24 Mr. Skrba, would you agree with me that the basis of the decision
25 to abandon fire using air bomb is because the UN were 200 metres from the
1 target and the defence line was 500 metres from the target. Is that the
2 basis of the decision to abandon it?
3 A. Well, the person who received the order to carry it out and then
4 decided not to carry it out is the one to answer. I cannot answer that.
5 This is something that has to do with the corps command. They have their
6 own unit for these jobs or tasks. This is something that would be a
7 matter for the corps and not for the brigade.
8 Q. Sir, I understand that you weren't behind this decision-making,
9 but nonetheless you come to us with great experience. And my question
10 is: Do you agree that the decision to abandon the attack was because of
11 the concern that the air bomb's imprecision was so great that they feared
12 their own front lines 500 metres away would be at risk?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that this has already been
14 answered. I was not permitted to push the witness.
15 MS. WEST: I disagree.
16 JUDGE KWON: While I don't agree with Mr. Karadzic's
17 intervention, but are all these questions necessary in light of timing?
18 Let's move on.
19 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President.
20 Q. We're going to look at one last document, P1198, on the same
21 subject matter, however a bit closer to Mr. Skrba's area of
22 responsibility. This is a document May 1995. It's from
23 Dragomir Milosevic to the Ilidza Infantry Brigade and the Sarajevo
24 Infantry Brigade, and it says on number 1:
25 "The Ilidza Brigade will immediately prepare an aerial bomb
1 launcher with at least five aerial bombs. The crews and launcher must be
2 prepared to open fire at my command at any given moment (launcher roughly
3 aimed at the airport)."
4 On Thursday you told us that the corps command was located at
5 Lukavica; correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And in your statement you have indicated that Lukavica was your
8 area of responsibility; correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And so this is an air bomb that is going to be located within
11 your area of responsibility, is it not?
12 A. It's partly my area and partly the area of the Ilidza Brigade.
13 It depends from where you are observing.
14 Q. Let's focus on the words in parenthesis "the launcher roughly
15 aimed at the airport." We've talked a bit about specific targeting
16 language. You would not consider that to be very specific, would you?
17 A. Aerial bombs have a lot of power. They're heavier. They have
18 more projectiles. If a shell is heavy, some 50 or 70 kilogrammes, and if
19 the aerial bomb is heavy from 3- to 500 kilogrammes, of course it has a
20 lot of lethal power, a lot of destructive power, and of course one cannot
21 be sure to hit the centre. If you fire a shell and then you can vouch
22 for hitting the target within 50 metres, in the case of an aerial bomb it
23 would be 500 metres because it's much -- it's much bigger projectile.
24 Q. Okay. Notwithstanding your enthusiastic denial of knowing
25 anything about aerial bombs, you've just told us that they're heavier,
1 they have more projectiles, and if you fire a shell and you can vouch for
2 hitting the target within 50 metres, but in the case of an aerial bomb it
3 would be 500 metres. So are you saying that the potential range of area
4 is 500 metres for an aerial bomb?
5 A. I apologise. If you hit within 50 metres, then you have a good
6 shot. I'm not saying it's the precision of the fire is within 50 metres.
7 If you hit within 50 metres, it's good, then that's that. If you have a
8 3- to 500 kilogramme bomb, it's clear, you don't have to see it or hear
9 it to know that it has more lethal power and that its range or its impact
10 area is greater. I mean, this is quite clear. Again I'm saying here, I
11 did see aerial bombs but I never participated in preparing or firing one
12 so I really cannot know the specifics of that.
13 Q. Thank you, sir.
14 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President. I don't have any more
16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
17 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just a few, Your Excellency, and if
19 I manage to put short questions and get short answers it's not going to
20 take that long.
21 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Skrba, do you know approximately how many
23 mosques there were in Sarajevo? You don't have to give us a precise
25 A. Almost 200, 180 to 200.
1 Q. And were they active, were they being used for gathering --
2 MS. WEST: Excuse me, Mr. President --
3 JUDGE KWON: How does this transpire from the cross-examination,
4 Mr. Karadzic?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it transpires because there
6 was a question if they avoided hitting places where people would
8 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Were all those mosques active and were they used for people
11 assembling, sometimes even five times a day for the five prescribed
13 A. Yes, except for those mosques that were at the front line facing
14 our positions, they were not active; but along the depth of the area,
15 they were active.
16 Q. So in 1.200 days they would have met at least 6.000 times, those
17 mosques would have been full of people; is that correct?
18 A. I cannot give you an exact number, but it is a large number
19 because Ramadan was celebrated throughout those four years there.
20 Q. How many shells did you fire?
21 A. None.
22 Q. I asked how many mosques did you hit. The answer is good but in
23 the question the "mosque" is missing.
24 A. We did not hit any mosques.
25 Q. Thank you. And do you agree that in mid-August 1994 NATO -- in
1 mid-August 1994 did NATO shell our positions?
2 A. Yes.
3 MS. WEST: Mr. President, I should have rose more quickly, but
4 these questions should be open-ended.
5 JUDGE KWON: Mm-hmm.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise. I'm trying to save
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. You were shown an order here, a preparatory order, to fire at
10 Igman and Saracko [phoen] Polje for the 14th of August. Are you able to
11 tell us what happened on the 14th of August and were those areas the
12 city -- were those areas considered to be the city centre or not?
13 A. Igman and the area towards Vojkovici and Hrasnica is not a
14 populated area, it was not an inhabited zone at the time.
15 Q. Thank you. And do you remember that General Sefer Halilovic's
16 apartment was in Ciglane?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And the explosion in his balcony, was that ascribed to the Serbs
19 and then the general managed to prove that it was not the Serbs --
20 MS. WEST: Mr. President.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
22 MS. WEST: I know Mr. Karadzic is new to redirect, but he
23 understands that the questions cannot be like this.
24 JUDGE KWON: Do you follow, Mr. Karadzic?
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Really, I will need a
1 little bit of time to ...
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Do you know what happened to General Halilovic's apartment?
4 A. I didn't know during the war, but after the war I found out from
5 some programmes.
6 Q. Are you able to tell the Chamber briefly what that was?
7 A. On two occasions I watched programmes on federal television and
8 he said that he knew more or less who did that and that he should have
9 been liquidated in that apartment and not his brother.
10 Q. Thank you. The Serbian side, did it place its heavy weapons in
11 civilian areas?
12 A. No, it did not.
13 Q. Did the Muslim side do that?
14 A. Well, yes they did. There's an example that we discussed around
15 Bjelave, this is a populated area.
16 Q. Why didn't the Serb side do that?
17 A. Because they were afraid of retaliation, of causing a reaction
18 and causing more victims at the firing positions.
19 Q. Thank you. Did Colonel Mole, you saw his statement, was he part
20 of the permanent crew at Lima 5?
21 A. I do not remember him. I would like to meet him and face him,
22 particularly after a statement by him to this effect.
23 Q. Thank you. The entrance to the tunnel, is that a legitimate
24 target, the tunnel -- the Dobrinja-Butmir tunnel?
25 A. It's a legitimate target from my area of responsibility, but we
1 did not hit that because the tunnel was not occupied. There were
2 civilians, soldiers passing there, supplies, fuel, medical supplies, and
3 I just would like to note that Mr. Alija was never late for any meeting
4 at all and he would leave Sarajevo.
5 Q. Do you recall the tunnel in Velesici, does that have two
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And the weapons that were in the tunnel, were they able to fire
9 and did they fire from both of the entrances?
10 A. Yes, from both. I said that to the lady as well.
11 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions. Witness, thank you very
12 much for your being here and for your effort.
13 A. You're welcome.
14 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Unless my colleagues have any questions
15 for you, that concludes your evidence, Mr. Skrba. On behalf of this
16 Chamber, I'd like to thank you for your coming to The Hague to give it.
17 Now you are free to go.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 JUDGE KWON: Please have a safe journey back home. We'll have a
20 break for half an hour.
21 [The witness withdrew]
22 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, will we be reconvening in private
23 session for the next witness?
24 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
25 JUDGE KWON: Since the Chamber has a matter to discuss in closed
1 session, when we resume at five past 11.00 the Chamber will start in
2 closed session.
3 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- On resuming at 11.06 a.m.
6 [Closed session]
11 Pages 29167-29175 redacted. Closed session.
22 [Open session]
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, let's bring in the witness.
24 MR. GAYNOR: While the witness is coming in, Mr. President, could
25 I request that he be given a warning pursuant to Rule 90(E).
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please take a seat, Mr. Skrba.
4 Having heard your submission as well as the parties' submission,
5 the Chamber is not still satisfied that there exists an objectively
6 grounded risk to your security or welfare or your family members. The
7 Chamber finds that concerns you raised are generic, not specifically
8 related to the fact that you will be testifying in this case, as such
9 does not reach the level that warrants protective measures requested for.
10 I hope you understand that.
11 Would the witness kindly take the solemn declaration.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
13 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Thank you.
14 WITNESS: MILOS SKRBA
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Skrba. Please make yourself
18 Mr. Skrba, before you start giving evidence I would like to draw
19 your attention to a particular rule at the Tribunal. Under this rule,
20 Rule 90(E), you may object to answering a question from the Prosecution
21 or the accused or from the Judges if you believe that your answer will
22 incriminate you. When I say "incriminate," I mean that something you say
23 may amount to an admission of your guilt for a criminal offence or could
24 provide evidence that you have committed an offence. However, even if
25 you think your answer will incriminate you and you do not wish to answer
1 the question, the Tribunal still has the discretion to oblige you to
2 answer the question. But in such a case the Tribunal will make sure that
3 your testimony compelled in such a way shall not be used as evidence in
4 other cases against you for any offence other than false testimony.
5 Sir, do you understand what I have just told you?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Skrba.
8 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.
10 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
11 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Skrba.
12 A. Good day.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see 1D6031 in the e-court
14 system, please.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Mr. Skrba, is this the statement that you gave to -- was it read
17 to you in English, or rather, in the Serbian language? Is this a
18 statement that you gave to the Defence team?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you. You have signed this statement, haven't you?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you. Does this statement accurately reflect what you said?
23 A. Yes, it does.
24 Q. Thank you. If I put the same questions to you that are contained
25 in the statement today here in the courtroom, would your answers be the
2 A. Yes, perhaps the answers I gave would not be in the same order,
3 but the gist of what I said would be the same.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I would like to
6 tender this statement into evidence pursuant to Rule 92 ter.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, it will be admitted.
8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D2334, Your Honours.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I said as part of a package but
10 that hasn't been included. In other words, does this include the
11 associated documents?
12 JUDGE KWON: I take it that you're tendering six documents?
13 Any objections, Mr. Gaynor?
14 MR. GAYNOR: No, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE KWON: They will all be admitted and given numbers by the
16 Registrar in due course.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 I would now like to read out a short summary of Mr. Skrba's
19 testimony. I'll read it out in English.
20 [In English] Milos Skrba lived in Pofalici. The atmosphere there
21 was tense. Before the war the Green Berets had established a check-point
22 where they controlled passengers and automobiles at the intersection of
23 Drinska Street and Pofalici. Already during 1991 he saw uniformed
24 Muslims especially in the area of Alipasino Polje. He was often stopped
25 and controlled by the Green Berets because of which he decided to
1 relocate with his family to a Serbian-majority area.
2 In April 1992 he fled to the village of Petrovici near Sarajevo.
3 After his arrival there, the local population self-organised and went out
4 on the outskirts of the village in order to defend their houses. Also in
5 April 1992 Muslim forces severed the only road linking Petrovici with
6 Pale in the area of the Alatiste intersection and the Osmice feature, and
7 in May 1992 they were forced to go out on that road and re-take it
8 because of frequent attacks of Muslim forces and Green Berets on their
10 In the summer 1992 the 2nd Infantry Company of the 2nd Infantry
11 Battalion of the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade was formed. He assumed
12 the duty of company commander. This company was primarily responsible
13 for preventing Muslim forces from severing the only road between Lukavica
14 and Pale and for preventing daily threats to civilians, in particular
15 civilian vehicles using this road. Parts of the 1st Mountain Brigade --
16 probably of the 10th Mountain Brigade of the 1st Corps Army of BH ranged
17 against them committed massacres of civilians in its zone of
18 responsibility. While on guard duty his unit could often hear the moans
19 and cries of men, women, and children during the night in the vicinity of
20 their positions. The Muslim units had positions in-depth exclusively in
21 civilian facilities and houses as well as snipers.
22 Milos Skrba's company did not have heavy artillery weapons. It
23 was a light infantry company. He never received any written or oral
24 order from the battalion command to open fire on civilian targets, nor
25 would he have done so had such an order ever been issued. Likewise, he
1 never ordered orally or in writing that fire be opened on civilian
3 Regarding Markale II incident on 28th of August, 1995,
4 Milos Skrba knows for a fact that there were no mortar positions in the
5 village of Studenkovici which he has shown on the map 1D08529, and he
6 showed the approximate place where there was an 92-millimetre mortar in
7 August 1995. That is the only place on that road where there was a
8 mortar position. He also claims that at the other positions in the
9 vicinity there were no 120-millimetre-calibre mortars.
10 Regarding the sniping incident in Zagrici Street on 13th of
11 December, 1992, Milos Skrba claims that there were no sharpshooters in
12 his company throughout 1992 as well as in December 1992 or during the
13 entire period of the war.
14 [Interpretation] At this point in time, the Defence doesn't have
15 any questions for the witness.
16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.
17 Mr. Skrba, as you heard your evidence in this case was admitted
18 in writing in lieu of your oral testimony. Now you will be
19 cross-examined by the Prosecution team.
20 Yes, Mr. Gaynor.
21 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President. Before I begin I just
22 note that Mr. Karadzic accidentally read out "92-millimetre mortar." In
23 his summary and I believe he meant 82-millimetre in August of 1995.
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Gaynor:
25 Q. Mr. Skrba, good afternoon.
1 A. Good afternoon.
2 Q. I will be asking you some questions on behalf of the Prosecution.
3 MR. GAYNOR: I'd like the Registrar to call up, please, 1D05827A.
4 Q. And, Mr. Skrba, while that's coming up, I want to ask you a few
5 questions about your evidence regarding the defence of Serbian houses in
6 the village of Petrovici. And your statement at paragraph 3 you said
8 "The local population self-organised and went out on the
9 outskirts of this Serbian village in order to defend their houses."
10 And you marked on the map the line of defence of Serbian houses.
11 Now, if we could look at the map, please.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Again, that's not been released.
13 MR. GAYNOR: This is one of the associated exhibits from the
15 JUDGE KWON: Did you put A at the end of the exhibit number?
16 MR. GAYNOR: The Defence put A at the end of the exhibit number,
18 JUDGE KWON: I think it's now on e-court.
19 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
20 JUDGE KWON: I was told that the one without A is on e-court.
21 MR. GAYNOR: Let's work with that one for the moment, please,
22 Mr. Registrar.
23 Q. Now, Mr. Witness, what's coming up is the first map that you
24 marked with a red line, which you claim relates to the defence -- the
25 line of defence of Serbian houses --
1 JUDGE KWON: Could you wait until we have the map.
2 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, Mr. President.
3 If we could zoom in on the bottom right corner of this map,
4 please. That's perfect. Thank you.
5 Q. Now, I think we can see a straight red line which you marked
6 in -- on this map. Is that right, Mr. Skrba?
7 A. That's not the map. This is a different map that relates to a
8 different case. There's a map that looks a little different.
9 Q. Mr. Skrba, it's correct, isn't it, that you did mark one map with
10 one red line and later you marked another map with a red line in a
11 different location, isn't it?
12 A. I didn't mark this map with this line. I don't know who did.
13 This line relates to the Studenkovici village where these mortars were
14 allegedly located. It has nothing to do with the defence of Petrovici.
15 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
16 JUDGE KWON: I'm told that - and I'm actually seeing it - the map
17 with number A, shall we upload that.
18 MR. GAYNOR: Very well. For the record, this is in fact the map
19 referred to at paragraph 3 of the witness statement which is map 1D8527.
20 And now keeping in mind the location of that red line, if we can look at
21 1D8527A. Again, Mr. Registrar, if you could focus on the -- that's
22 perfect. In fact, if we could include the word "Sarajevo" on the --
23 thank you.
24 Q. Now, Mr. Witness, you can confirm, can you, that this is a map
25 which you marked showing the line of defence of Serbian houses; is that
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now on this map the village of Petrovici is not, in fact, marked.
4 Could you take a pen and approximately identify where it is.
5 JUDGE KWON: Could you wait until assisted by our usher,
6 Mr. Skrba.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The main road runs in this
8 direction Pozarevici. Petrovici is somewhere here behind Kozarevici.
9 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is kindly asked to speak up a bit.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's Kozarevici and then Petrovic.
11 That is the street here. In this area there are three villages:
12 Miljevici, Gojkovici, Kozarevici, and Petrovici.
13 MR. GAYNOR:
14 Q. Witness, could you just put the letter P next to the location of
16 A. Well, I don't know exactly because it's covered by this box, this
17 inbox here, but if there is some other map I could use that. It would be
18 roughly speaking here.
19 Q. If you could sign and date --
20 A. This is approximate. I'm not certain because I'm not sure that
21 this is the actual location. So I have marked it approximately.
22 Q. Thank you. Please sign and date the map.
23 A. I apologise, it's the 21st, isn't it?
24 JUDGE KWON: The 22nd I take it.
25 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President. That's correct.
1 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
2 MR. GAYNOR: I'd like to tender that, Mr. President.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, next Prosecution exhibit.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P5937, Your Honours.
5 MR. GAYNOR:
6 Q. Now, could you explain why you changed the position of the red
7 line between the first map that we saw and the second map that we saw.
8 A. Because I didn't know who marked the map. I didn't and those
9 weren't the positions, in fact, they were patrols there in May and April
10 2002 --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Says the witness.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- there were no guards, there were
13 patrols because the Territorial Defence was there and the guards were on
14 duty there to prevent the Muslim units from infiltrating the villages of
15 Miljevici and Petrovici because they were -- that was a joint village so
16 it was an area of strategic importance and the desire was to prevent an
17 attack on Miljevici, Petrovici, and Kozarevici and this other village
19 MR. GAYNOR:
20 Q. Mr. Witness, do you accept that the red line on your map is not,
21 in fact, on the outskirts of Petrovici?
22 A. Well, practically it's not far from the village of Petrovici.
23 Q. Well, we'll be seeing exactly where the village of Petrovici is
24 located a bit later on, Mr. Witness. I'm going to move on now. I'd like
25 you to -- you can refer to it if you wish, at paragraph 11 of your
1 statement you say:
2 "In my company there were no sharpshooters throughout 1992 as
3 well as in December 1992 or during the entire period of the war."
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, your company was in the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade;
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You accept that your company was a subordinate unit of the
9 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you accept that the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade
12 distributed sniper rifles to its subordinate units?
13 A. I don't know. I didn't get anything as the company commander.
14 Q. Were you aware that the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade also had
15 automatic weapons with scopes, semi-automatic weapons with scopes,
16 passive infrared sights, and other forms of optical equipment?
17 A. No, I wasn't.
18 MR. GAYNOR: Can we call up, please, P5930.
19 Q. The document in front of you, Mr. Skrba, is dated the 29th of
20 October, 1993. It's from the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade to the
21 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command. The brigade is informing the command
22 that it's in possession of rifles with optical sights, semi-automatic
23 rifles with optical sights, machine-guns with optical sights, sniper
24 rifles, rifles with passive infrared sights, sniper rifle silencers. Do
25 you see that?
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. You see in the sentence below Colonel Stojanovic who signed this
4 "As we don't have a special sniper unit, we have issued the
5 sniper rifles to combatants in the subordinated units.
6 "They are active when the combatants are in position."
7 Do you see that?
8 A. Yes, I do.
9 Q. You also see the next sentence where commander Colonel Stojanovic
11 "In order to be more effective covering enemy territory with
12 snipers, in front of our forward lines, we require another seven M69,
13 7.9-millimetre sniper rifles ..." and he asks for a further three sniper
14 rifles with infrared sights and silencers.
15 Do you see that?
16 A. I do.
17 Q. This suggests, does it not, that the
18 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade had sniper rifles, it had automatic
19 weapons and semi-automatic weapons with scopes, it had other optical
20 equipment, it distributed that equipment to its subordinate units, and
21 those units used that equipment on their forward lines, doesn't it?
22 A. I did not receive anything myself and I did not have these
23 weapons that are mentioned in this list ever in my unit.
24 Q. Nevertheless, you accept the thrust of this document is as I
25 summarised it, do you?
1 A. No, I didn't understand exactly what you mean.
2 Q. Mr. Witness, I'll move on after this, but is it your position
3 still that the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade did not have sniper
4 rifles, did not have automatic weapons with scopes, did not have
5 semi-automatic weapons with scopes, did not have other optical equipment
6 which can be used to shoot people accurately from a large long distance?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to object --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would just like to say that I
9 can't say anything about the brigade. I was not in authority in the
10 brigade. I can talk about my company. If you know what a company is as
11 opposed to a battalion and a brigade, you will know that I can be
12 responsible only for the company that I was in command of. I can't say
13 anything about the brigade. Thank you.
14 MR. GAYNOR: I'll move on, Mr. President.
15 Q. I'll move now to --
16 JUDGE KWON: I think, Mr. Karadzic, that resolved your --
17 THE ACCUSED: Yeah, it's resolved, but I would just direct your
18 attention to the translation; namely, it should be translated: "In order
19 to be more effective covering enemy's area in front of our lines," not
20 "enemy's territory," but just space to the confrontation line.
21 JUDGE KWON: We'll take a look.
22 I think we can move on now. Yes, Mr. Gaynor.
23 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 Q. Mr. Skrba, we're moving now to Baba Stijena which is discussed at
25 paragraph 11 of your statement. Towards the end of your paragraph there
1 you describe an elderly Muslim man who herded goats at a distance of 80
2 to a hundred metres from Baba Stijena. I think we can agree that
3 Baba Stijena itself affords an excellent view over that part of Sarajevo?
4 A. Yes.
5 MR. GAYNOR: Could I ask the Registrar, please, to call up 2 --
6 65 ter 23861, please.
7 Q. Mr. Witness, Mr. Skrba, do you recognise that location?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What is it?
10 A. I didn't understand you.
11 Q. That's Baba Stijena, isn't it? That's an SRK position at
12 Baba Stijena?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You can see from the photograph, I think, that it's quite a
15 fortified position, isn't it?
16 A. Yes, but that's not what it looked like in 1992 and 1993 when I
17 was a company commander. It looked rather different. It was not as
18 fortified as you can see it here.
19 Q. Was it, nevertheless, fortified in 1992 and 1993?
20 A. Yes, yes, it had to be fortified because there was constant
21 sniper and mortar fire. That part of the road was constantly under fire.
22 It was under the control of the BH army. The visibility in this
23 particular part was very good. It was quite exposed and there were a lot
24 of incidents happening over there.
25 Q. Did you say that this part of the road, Baba Stijena itself, was
1 under the control of the BiH army?
2 A. No, no, they controlled the road from their positions.
3 Q. Baba Stijena was always under SRK control, wasn't it?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 MR. GAYNOR: I'd like to tender that photograph, please,
6 Mr. President.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P5938, Your Honours.
9 MR. GAYNOR:
10 Q. Now, while we're on Baba Stijena you said that BiH -- there was
11 constant sniper and mortar fire on that position. Did SRK forces at
12 Baba Stijena return mortar fire from Baba Stijena?
13 A. No, they did not have mortars. How could they respond? And you
14 saw the road in the photo. That was the main road leading from the
15 eastern part of Sarajevo towards Pale, and it was exposed in that part.
16 That's why we had to erect protective fences because people, especially
17 civilians, were often wounded or killed in that part between Baba Stijena
18 and Kuce, the length of that part of the road was about 100 to 150
19 metres. The rest of the road was not exposed because it was hidden by
20 the woods, by the thick woods, that's where the defence line was. This
21 part here was rather exposed all the time.
22 Q. Now, a note to clarify your evidence: Are you suggesting that if
23 SRK forces at Baba Stijena came under sniper fire from the ABiH side,
24 that they would not return fire; is that your evidence?
25 A. I'm not saying that. I'm saying when a car came by, either
1 civilian or a military vehicle, it was always exposed to either sniper or
2 mortar or rifle fire. There was a time --
3 Q. Mr. Witness --
4 A. -- when no car could drive by without being attacked --
5 Q. Mr. Witness, I'm going to have to ask you to concentrate very
6 carefully on my questions. Is it your position that if SRK forces at
7 Baba Stijena came under sniper fire from the ABiH side that they would
8 not return fire?
9 A. When people's lives were threatened, only on those occasions,
10 that's when fire was returned.
11 Q. Now, Mr. Witness, I want to turn to paragraph 6 of your
12 statement. You refer to units of a brigade of the ABiH and you say at
13 the end of paragraph 6 that:
14 "These Muslim units also had their positions in-depth exclusively
15 in civilian facilities and houses."
16 You see that?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. How did you gather that information?
19 A. We saw it ourselves. Those positions were so close that they
20 could be observed from our locations - our positions were better in
21 tactical terms than theirs - and we either heard or saw it ourselves.
22 There was no military facility anywhere near. We all lived there. We
23 were familiar with all the wells, houses, the river. When I was a kid I
24 used to take that same road with my father to go to Sarajevo. I went to
25 school every day taking that road. So we were familiar with all of the
1 houses and all of the features in the area.
2 Q. Would you return fire to those units if they fired at you?
3 A. We returned in most cases. Whenever they attacked or tried a
4 breakthrough, whenever they were redeployed in order to conquer one part
5 of our territory, we held one part of road and our task was to defend
6 that road and the villages in-depth behind our lines. That was our
7 objective, an objective we achieved. It should be known those villages
8 were ethnically Serbian, purely Serbian villages. There were no other
9 ethnicities living there.
10 Q. Who authorised you to fire at ABiH positions located in civilian
11 facilities and houses?
12 A. We did not shoot at civilian houses. We opened fire on their
13 lines which were in our immediate vicinity whenever we were provoked,
14 that is.
15 Q. Mr. Witness, in your own statement you say that the Muslim units
16 had their positions in-depth exclusively in civilian facilities and
17 houses. That's at paragraph 6.
18 A. And that's true. In-depth 100 or 200 metres, that's the forward
19 line. And the civilian facilities, the civilian houses, were the
20 positions of their units.
21 Q. Now, what measures did you take to minimise civilian casualties?
22 A. Well, we opened fire only when we observed a target. We didn't
23 open random fire. We had clear targets. We made sure that we did not
24 use unnecessary fire.
25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't understand the end of
1 the answer.
2 MR. GAYNOR:
3 Q. Mr. Witness, the interpreter didn't get the end of your answer.
4 Could you repeat the end of your last answer, please.
5 A. If we came under attack by the BH army, we retaliated, we
6 returned fire, in the place where we were provoked. On no occasion was
7 the entire company engaged. We opened selective fire. We never opened
8 random fire. There was no need for that.
9 Q. Now, it's your evidence that your company was essentially a small
10 arms company; is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness said that bullets were
13 expensive and they were in short supply. Can this be recorded because it
14 was not recorded the first time around.
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. CLSS will check it later on.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And also that the platoons that had
17 come under attack would defend themselves, that the defence was not
18 carried out by the entire company.
19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
20 Yes, Mr. Skrba, could you speak slow -- a bit slower so that the
21 interpreters can follow your answers.
22 Yes, Mr. Gaynor, please continue.
23 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you.
24 Q. Is it correct that your --
25 A. Thank you.
1 Q. -- your company was using rifles, automatic weapons,
2 semi-automatic weapons?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. When using those weapons, what steps did you as company commander
5 take to ensure that your troops could distinguish between civilians and
7 A. I made sure that fire was opened scarcely on an observed target.
8 We always emphasized that.
9 Q. How did your troops know what they were firing at?
10 A. They saw them. Our lines were not far from theirs, and one could
11 observe with the naked eye what trench was fired from, what bunker was
12 fired from. It was easy to see that.
13 Q. And as well as that you, no doubt, had optical equipment, such as
14 binoculars, specialised scopes?
15 A. No, we did not have those because we did not need them.
16 Q. Your evidence is that your entire company did not have any
17 optical equipment, no binoculars, no scopes?
18 A. That's my evidence. We didn't need them.
19 Q. And your company was, in fact, specialised small arms company?
20 A. It was not a specialised company. It was just a regular small
21 arms company.
22 Q. All right. We'll move on.
23 MR. GAYNOR: Can I ask the Registrar for map 1D8529, please.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness said small arms or
25 infantry company. The interpreter chose to use the word "small arms"
1 instead of "infantry." That's on line 25.
2 MR. GAYNOR: I'll move on now.
3 Now, Mr. Registrar, if you could, in fact, focus in on the red
4 box, please, and indeed that's perfect. Thank you.
5 Q. Now, Mr. Skrba, on this map you've marked an 82-millimetre mortar
6 position and you said:
7 "That was the only place on that road where there was a mortar
9 That's at paragraph 10. That's correct, isn't it?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, I think if we look closely at this map we can see the yellow
12 road at the top which is the Pale road and then a little bit south of
13 your circle -- your red circle we see a white road which appears to be a
14 more minor road. Is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, your red circle does not appear to be actually on a road
17 marked on this map. So could you clarify whether this red circle
18 referred --
19 A. Well, that is close to the Velesici road where you go up and
20 down. That's that part a bit enlarged, so it seems that it is not close
21 but it is close to that white road.
22 Q. So was the 82-millimetre mortar located on a road or on a dirt
23 track or in a field? Where was it located?
24 A. I don't know because it was not in my zone of responsibility, but
25 I know that next to the road that it was there because I saw it as I
1 travelled along the road. I don't know whose piece that was. It was not
2 in my area of responsibility. That mortar was not in my area of
3 responsibility. That zone, that area, belonged to a different unit.
4 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Gaynor, how much longer would you need? I'm
5 asking for the --
6 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, Your Honour, I'm willing to break at any stage.
7 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Then we passed the time to break so
8 we'll break now.
9 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE KWON: Then shall we resume at half past 1.00.
11 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.41 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 1.32 p.m.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Gaynor, please continue.
14 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President. And I'll just take this
15 opportunity to note for the record that the still photo of Baba Stijena
16 identified by the witness and admitted as P5938 is a still from a film
17 made by a BBC TV crew which appeared in the BBC Panorama programme, and
18 that episode of Panorama was made by Martin Bell and it's referred to at
19 paragraph 59 of P1996 which is the amalgamated statement of Martin Bell.
20 Q. Now, Mr. Skrba, I'll continue my questions now. We were looking
21 at the picture which is on the screen in front of you, and I just want to
22 take you up on the point where you said that you saw the 82-millimetre
23 position as you travelled along the road. Now, are you referring to the
24 white road to the east of your red circle?
25 A. This road, this earth road that you see going to the east --
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I assist for the accuracy of
2 the transcript. The general said Martin Bell recorded this in 1996 and
3 it's not in the transcript.
4 MR. GAYNOR: The P1996 is the amalgamated statement of
5 Martin Bell. I didn't mention the year 1996 as far as I'm aware.
6 Q. Now, Mr. Witness, perhaps at this stage I could --
7 MR. GAYNOR: Could I ask the court usher to help you with a pen.
8 Q. And I would like you to identify the earth road - along which you
9 travelled - with a pen.
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. Thank you very much. Fine. So the roads that you've marked on
12 this map were under SRK control in 1995; is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. In fact, they were under SRK control for the duration of the
15 conflict; isn't that correct?
16 A. Yes, roads in our territory where you could move freely.
17 Q. And what kinds of vehicles could you move freely along those
18 roads in?
19 A. Passenger vehicles.
20 Q. Presumably with specialised military trucks you could drive along
21 those roads that you've marked as well?
22 A. It was difficult because these are narrow roads from the
23 Austro-Hungarian times and the curves are pretty big. You can see that
24 for yourself.
25 Q. I accept that. Now, if you were to drive a jeep along these
1 roads rather than a very large military vehicle, it wouldn't pose any
2 particular difficulty, would it?
3 A. A jeep, yes.
4 Q. Could I ask you to sign and date that map, please, Mr. Witness.
5 A. [Marks]
6 MR. GAYNOR: I tender that, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, next Prosecution exhibit.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P5939, Your Honours.
9 MR. GAYNOR:
10 Q. Staying with that map, under whose control was the 82-millimetre
11 mortar position that you opened?
12 A. I don't know. Not -- not with my companies. I don't know.
13 Q. In your statement at paragraph 10 you say:
14 "That is the" -- you're referring here to the red dot marking
15 82-millimetre position. You say:
16 "That is the only place on that road where there was a mortar
17 position. I claim that at that or other positions in the vicinity there
18 were no 120-millimetre-calibre mortars."
19 What period of time are you referring to with that statement?
20 A. The period 1992 to 1993 and then periodically until the end of
21 the war. I was the company commander, an active company commander, in
22 that company. So it would be the period 1992/1993, the end of 1992.
23 Q. So you accept that there may have been 120-millimetre mortars in
24 that general area in 1995?
25 A. Well, I cannot agree if I don't know.
1 Q. Mr. Witness, I'd like to bring up now a map where you describe
2 the area of responsibility of your company, 1D08530, please. We see the
3 red line along the Pale road which marks the front edge of your zone of
4 responsibility; is that right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Would you be able to take a pen and mark the area of Palez on
7 this map?
8 A. I don't know where Palez is.
9 Q. Mr. Witness, you were the --
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. -- you were the company commander, this was your zone of
12 responsibility, and you are claiming that you don't know where the Palez
13 area is; is that correct?
14 A. Perhaps it had a different name, but I don't really see here
15 where that is. If there is no marking of some sort, then I don't know.
16 Q. Mr. Witness, let me clarify. The area of Palez is not marked on
17 this particular map. We're going to see it in a minute on a different
18 map. But I'm asking you if you are claiming that you don't know or are
19 not able to identify where the area of Palez is on this map. Is that
20 what you're claiming?
21 A. Perhaps I do know it but under a different name, but like this on
22 this map I don't see that place I don't know.
23 Q. Under what other name do you know the area Palez?
24 A. Well, I don't know until you show me which part it is.
25 Q. Right.
1 MR. GAYNOR: I'm going to ask the registrar, please, to call up
2 65 ter 23919E, please. Could we turn this by 90 degrees, please, and
3 zoom in on the centre part of this map, please. And if you could go a
4 little further to the south, please, and zoom in, Mr. Registrar.
5 Q. Do you see the word "Palez" there, Mr. Witness?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Well, it's clear when we compare the previous map to this map
8 that Palez is exactly within your zone of responsibility. Do you agree
9 with that?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Now, we'll come back to that map a little later, but for the
12 moment did you know that the SRK had 120-millimetre mortars in the Palez
13 area during the year 1995?
14 A. No, I did not.
15 MR. GAYNOR: Can we call up, please, 65 ter 23880.
16 JUDGE KWON: Where do we see Palez on this map -- it has gone
18 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, Your Honours, we will be coming back to it
19 later but I can --
20 JUDGE KWON: It's gone. If you come back later on --
21 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, I can.
22 JUDGE KWON: -- that's sufficient.
23 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
24 Could we go to the second page in B/C/S, third page in English.
25 Q. This is a document as I think you can see, Mr. Witness, from the
1 SRK command dated the 9th of May, 1995, the header refers to "Talas 2,"
2 which can be translated in English as Wave 2. Now if we look at
3 paragraph 3, this is at the bottom of page 3 in English and at the middle
4 of page 2 in the original, we see a reference at the end of that
5 paragraph to SRK objectives, including to:
6 "Place a major part of Stari Grad under fire control with the
7 objective of ultimate victory."
8 If we turn to the next page in English staying on the same page
9 in the original, paragraph 4 begins with the words:
10 "I have decided ..."
11 And then towards the end of the paragraph he refers to:
12 " ... for ultimately crushing the enemy's defensive power and for
13 placing a major part of Stari Grad under fire control ..."
14 Do you see that, Mr. Witness?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You know where Stari Grad is, don't you?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Stari Grad includes areas such as Bascarsija and the
19 Markale Market, doesn't it?
20 A. You could say that.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, can we see in the Serbian
22 where that is -- ah, this is paragraph 2.
23 MR. GAYNOR: Paragraph 2 at the end is a reference to Stari Grad
24 and at paragraph 4 there's a further reference to placing a major part of
25 Stari Grad under fire control.
1 Q. Now, if we turn now to the next page in English and the next page
2 in the original and we look at the end of paragraph 5.1. I think we need
3 to go back a page in B/C/S. The last sentence he says:
4 "Everything shall be planned out by the deputy chief of artillery
5 Major Savo Simic."
6 Mr. Witness, you know Savo Simic, don't you?
7 A. [No interpretation]
8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure whether the witness
9 said "yes" or "no."
10 MR. GAYNOR:
11 Q. Witness, do you know Savo Simic?
12 A. No. No, I don't.
13 Q. Very well. We'll carry on. At the bottom of page 6 in English,
14 paragraph 6 reads:
15 "Forces carrying out combat operations in the Debelo Brdo area
16 are supported by an 82-millimetre MB and a 120-millimetre battery from
17 the sector of Trebevic-Palez."
18 Do you see that?
19 A. Yes, I do.
20 Q. MB means mortar platoon; is that correct?
21 A. No. MB means "minobacac," mortar, 82-millimetres.
22 Q. Very well. Thank you.
23 MR. GAYNOR: Now if we can turn to page 7 in English and page 5
24 in B/C/S, paragraph 7.1(a), this refers to ammunition for the tasks.
25 Q. In the middle of the paragraph it says that the 1st Smbr and the
1 DIO units will be approved for the following for the execution of the
2 offensive operations in the Debelo Brdo area, and it lists, among others,
3 100 shells for the 120-millimetre mortar platoon.
4 Do you see that?
5 A. I do.
6 Q. So do you accept that according to this document the SRK had
7 120-millimetre mortars in the Palez area?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we look at the last page so
9 that we can identify the whole document, whether it's complete and
10 whether it's signed.
11 MR. GAYNOR: Perhaps we can ask the witness to answer the
12 question first.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
14 MR. GAYNOR:
15 Q. Witness, could you answer the question.
16 A. Well, I cannot entirely answer the question because I don't know.
17 I really didn't see and I did not take part in these kinds of events
18 because my infantry company's responsibility did not lie in Debelo Brdo.
19 We were behind in control under a certain angle. I don't know whether
20 these are preparatory actions for an operation. I don't know whether
21 this happened or not. I mean, this is something that would need to be
22 done at the corps level.
23 Q. Witness, do you accept that Palez did fall within your area of
25 A. Until 1993, though, because later I'm not sure about it, no.
1 Q. Witness, you haven't mentioned anything about that in your
2 statement, have you?
3 A. I cannot say that there was a mortar there because I don't know.
4 I did not manage to find out in any way if there was a mortar or not in
5 this place called Palez.
6 MR. GAYNOR: Mr. President, I'd like to tender the document that
7 we've just been discussing.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson --
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, could we please see what this
10 document is; and secondly, the witness did not confirm anything from this
11 document, so I was not allowed to tender documents under the same
13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Gaynor.
14 MR. GAYNOR: Well, this document is directly relevant to the
15 witness's assertion as to whether the SRK had 120-millimetre mortars in
16 the Palez area in 1995. He did discuss the document to some extent. It
17 goes directly to his credibility and it goes directly to the matters --
18 the claims he makes in his statement. I believe that it does form an
19 integral part of his evidence so far and it is vital for assessing his
21 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, do you challenge the authenticity of
22 this document?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I'm not sure. I
24 haven't seen all of it. I'm not sure about the signature. And also, I'm
25 not sure whether the operation was carried out or whether it was just
1 being planned and whether he was there at all. All in all, all of this
2 is rather dubious.
3 JUDGE KWON: I don't follow you saying so. You can see the
4 document on your own with your e-court. You have all the legal
5 associates in the courtroom who can see the document.
6 Just a second.
7 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, you have more
9 options with e-court than I do. I cannot actually look at it myself. It
10 would -- the page would have to be shown to me.
11 JUDGE KWON: Could you explain the format of the document,
12 Mr. Gaynor.
13 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE KWON: A document is attached to the previous -- yes.
15 MR. GAYNOR: As far as we could tell, the front page which is a
16 5th of May SRK command document, 5th of May, 1995, is not related to this
17 document. The two are under this -- this 65 ter number, but I don't
18 believe the two documents are related. And in respect of its
19 authenticity, I note that it does not appear to be signed; however, it
20 appears to certainly be prepared with exactly the same type face as many
21 of the SRK documents that we've already seen and have been admitted in
22 evidence. I don't believe there's ever been a single SRK document so far
23 in the trial where authenticity has been a question. And I can certainly
24 provide more information to the Court as to where this document was
25 seized from if necessary.
1 MR. TIEGER: Mr. President.
2 JUDGE KWON: Do we not hear everything, Mr. Tieger?
3 MR. TIEGER: I just wanted to respond to one assertion and get
4 some clarification from Mr. Robinson.
5 Mr. Karadzic suggested that he was not permitted to have such
6 documents introduced during the course of his case. I wanted to confirm
7 that when matters of credibility and impeachment arose and was stated as
8 such by Mr. Robinson, that I would repeatedly rise and affirm that,
9 indeed, that was another basis for admission. And I believe the Defence
10 will confirm that approach during the course of the Prosecution case.
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
12 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. It's true that during the
13 Prosecution case for the most part when we had a document that
14 contradicted the testimony -- purported to contradict the testimony of
15 the witness, it was admitted when -- even if the witness couldn't confirm
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber agrees with Mr. Gaynor and this will be
19 admitted as the next Prosecution exhibit.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P5940, Your Honours.
21 MR. GAYNOR: I'm obliged, Mr. President.
22 Could we now call up 65 ter 23926, please. If we could go to the
23 next page in the B/C/S, please.
24 Q. We see there a signature of Savo Simic, who is -- has the same
25 name as a Savo Simic referred to in the previous document. You see that,
1 Mr. Witness?
2 A. Yes, I can see it.
3 Q. Now in this document we see if we go to the previous page in
4 B/C/S and the same page in English, under item 1(b) it says:
5 "Fire support for the 3/1st Smbr and SRK DIO carrying out b/d at
6 Debelo Brdo and Vranjaca shall be realised using:
7 "120-millimetre mortar battery (4 artillery pieces) from the
8 Palez area."
9 Do you see that?
10 A. I do.
11 Q. And do you accept that b/d -- or tell us what "b/d" stands for.
12 A. Well, I don't know. I'm not an artillery man, so I don't know
13 what it means.
14 MR. GAYNOR: Could we go to the next page in B/C/S, please, and
15 onto the next page in English.
16 Q. Under item 5 it says:
17 "Readiness for action on the 15th of May, 1995, at 0500 hours."
18 Do you see that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Do you accept, Mr. Skrba, that on the basis of this document
21 signed by Major Savo Simic, it appears that there were 120-millimetre
22 mortar positions, four of them, at the Palez area at the time that this
23 document was drafted. Do you accept that?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Well, perhaps you could explain to the Chamber why you don't?
1 A. The reason is simple. It is because in my opinion there were no
2 mortars at the time at Palez. As for them being prepared for some sort
3 of action, that's a different matter. But as I saw those 82-millimetre
4 mortars in the vicinity, well, they should have been 120-millimetre
5 mortars. I don't know whether they brought them in. I don't believe
6 that was the case, though. So in my opinion those 120-millimetre mortars
7 were not set up there.
8 Q. So you -- it's your position, is it, that the assertion that
9 there were four 120-millimetre mortars in Palez at the time that this
10 document was drafted is incorrect; is that your evidence?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. GAYNOR: I'd like to tender this document for the same
13 reasons as previously advanced, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes, next Exhibit P5941.
15 THE REGISTRAR: That's correct, Your Honours.
16 MR. GAYNOR:
17 Q. I'd like to move now to paragraph 15 of your statement --
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do apologise. Line 7 the witness
19 didn't say they should have been, he said that 120-millimetre mortars
20 were not there. So this is just a problem with the transcript.
21 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.
22 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Q. I will move on now. At paragraph 15 of your statement,
24 Mr. Skrba, you say:
25 "Between Petrovici village and the Sarajevo city there were no
1 artillery weapons or mortars."
2 Could you clarify what period of time you are referring to?
3 A. To the period running from the beginning of the war until the
5 Q. Do you accept that the Palez area is, roughly speaking,
6 approximately between Petrovici village and the city of Sarajevo?
7 A. No, it's a little to the right.
8 Q. Well, we'll look at a map now so we can clarify that.
9 MR. GAYNOR: First of all, could I call up D718.
10 Q. The map we're about to see, Mr. Skrba, is a VRS map showing
11 confrontation lines and VRS assets around the city of Sarajevo.
12 Mr. Skrba, south of the city of Sarajevo do you see the Cyrillic
13 letters 1.Smbr?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Could you tell us what that abbreviation stands for?
16 A. I'm not sure but perhaps the 1st Sarajevo Motorised Brigade.
17 Q. Fair enough. And while we're on this point, is that brigade
18 sometimes referred to as the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade?
19 A. I couldn't say for certain. I don't know.
20 Q. Do you see an area marked by dotted red lines around the area
21 where the 1st Smbr marking is? Essentially what I'm asking you is: Do
22 you see the area of responsibility of the 1st Sarajevo Motorised Brigade?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Perhaps just for the sake of clarity if I could ask the usher to
25 assist you with a pen. If you could just fairly quickly draw around the
1 area of responsibility of the 1st Sarajevo Motorised Brigade and then
2 sign and date this map, please, sir.
3 A. I can't mark this because I wasn't in the brigade. I was a
4 company member. I mentioned what the responsibilities of my company
5 were, but I can't agree with this map because I didn't deal with such
6 matters and I can't be familiar with what the responsibilities were of
7 the 1st Sarajevo Motorised Brigade, and that is why I cannot make any
8 markings on this map and draw the lines designating the areas of
9 responsibility of the brigade.
10 Q. Right, well I'll leave it to Their Honours to decide. We'll look
11 at a more blown-up version. It certainly appears to any reasonable
12 observer that the red dots appear to be intended to indicate the zone of
13 responsibility of the 1st Smbr.
14 MR. GAYNOR: Could I call up, please, 65 ter 23919E. This is a
15 blown-up portion of the map we've just been looking at.
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
17 MR. ROBINSON: I think you know, Mr. President, what I'm going to
18 say, but we would appreciate Mr. Gaynor refraining from comments about
19 what's perfectly obvious, and I think it's perfectly obvious he knows
20 better. Thank you.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes, it's noted.
22 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 Thank you, Mr. Robinson.
24 As soon as the map I've just referred to comes in, we'll have a
25 look at the location of the village of Petrovici.
1 JUDGE KWON: I was able to see Petrovici if we zoom in on this
2 map as well.
3 MR. GAYNOR: We could use it. The next one is a higher --
4 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
5 MR. GAYNOR: -- definition version.
6 Now, if we could rotate that by 90 degrees, please, and
7 essentially focus on the bottom 50 per cent of this map.
8 Q. Now, there we see at the bottom of the map part of the Cyrillic
9 letters 1.Smbr, don't we, Mr. Witness?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And above the letter M we see the word "Petrovici," don't we?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. In fact, if we could focus on the word "Petrovici,"
14 Mr. Registrar, I think it's fair to say, Mr. Witness, that we can see a
15 number of black dots which appear to indicate buildings making up the
16 village of Petrovici; isn't that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now I'm going to put it to you that that's quite a considerable
19 distance from the first map we saw at the start of your testimony, which
20 you claimed was a line on the edge of the village of Petrovici; isn't
21 that right?
22 A. Miljevici, Kozarevici, and Petrovici are ethnically pure
23 villages --
24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the witness's last
1 MR. GAYNOR:
2 Q. Could you finish your answer, please, Mr. Witness. The
3 interpreter missed the last part of your answer.
4 A. I didn't just say that we stopped only in front of the village of
5 Petrovici, we stopped at the edge of the village. The first village from
6 Sarajevo is Miljevici and then you have Kozarevici and then Petrovici, so
7 we were at the edge of villages that are ethnically pure. If it's any
8 clearer to you I'll tell you what the distance is in kilometres between
9 Petrovici and the lines where we were up to the road for Trebevici.
10 Q. You were trying to keep those villages ethnically pure; is that
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is this permissible?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were trying to mount a defence
14 of those villages. We didn't want to maintain them as ethnically pure
15 villages because they were already ethnically pure Serbian villages.
16 MR. GAYNOR:
17 Q. All right. Let's just look back at the map again. If you move
18 north from Petrovici towards the city of Sarajevo, do you see a large
19 shaded area west of Studenkovici, and in the middle of that large shaded
20 area do you see the Cyrillic letters B-r-A-G?
21 A. Yes, I can see that.
22 Q. The abbreviation BrAG stands for brigade artillery groups,
23 doesn't it?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You see the word "Palez" at the top of the shaded area of the
1 brigade artillery groups, do you?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And the 82-millimetre mortar that you identified earlier was
4 located approximately where? Perhaps we can ask the usher to ask you to
5 mark the map.
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. Could you put 82-millimetre next to that, sign and date this,
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. So looking at this map, Mr. Witness, and taking into account the
11 documents that we've seen, it's fair to say, isn't it, that in the
12 general area between Petrovici and Sarajevo city the SRK had a
13 considerable presence of mortar and artillery assets, didn't it?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please be assisted. Could
15 we be told when the map was made, who made it, and does it reflect the
16 actual situation at the time or the situation as it was supposed to be in
17 the future, the situation for which plans had been made. We can't draw
18 any conclusions on this basis. If a certain action has been planned and
19 then markings made to indicate the location of weapons, it doesn't mean
20 that this is actually going to happen. So we have to know what this map
21 actually represents.
22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Gaynor.
23 MR. GAYNOR: Mr. President, first of all, the witness's position
24 is that throughout the conflict there were no artillery or mortar assets
25 between Petrovici and the city of Sarajevo. That's his position.
1 Second, this is certainly something that the accused can take up in
2 re-examination if he wishes.
3 JUDGE KWON: Fair enough.
4 Mr. Skrba, can you answer the question?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As the ground between Petrovici up
6 until Miljevici, as far as Miljevici is very steep, it's a mountainous
7 area, it's very difficult terrain. The villages here, Petrovici, for
8 example, and Tilava are separated by a hill at Palez that the gentleman
9 has mentioned. It's on a hill, it's on the slopes of Trebevica. This
10 part from Petrovici to Sarajevo, the areas we moved through, in fact, is
11 a road in Petrovici, Kozarevici, Stanovici, Miljevici, there were no
12 artillery weapons nor in the area of responsibility of my company. As
13 for the other areas, I don't know. This is a very detailed map and I
14 would be grateful if you could not continue putting questions to me about
15 the artillery resources because I'm not an artillery man. If you have
16 any questions about infantry weapons, I'll answer those questions. But
17 you will have other witnesses who will be in a position to answer your
18 questions about the artillery and mortars. There is really nothing that
19 I could tell you with any certainty about such matters.
20 MR. GAYNOR: Mr. President, first of all I'd like to tender the
21 map marked by the witness. He seems to have put some extra markings on
22 it, but I don't think they affect the location of the 82-millimetre
23 mortar position he marked earlier.
24 JUDGE KWON: Did he put the date of this on this?
25 MR. GAYNOR:
1 Q. Could you put the date --
2 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Q. -- it's the 22nd of October, Witness.
4 JUDGE KWON: Could this be the next Prosecution exhibit.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P5942, Your Honours.
6 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you.
7 Q. Mr. Skrba my final question is that on the basis of your answers,
8 do you accept that the SRK may have had 120-millimetre mortar positions
9 in the area south of Sarajevo in August 1995 that you might not have been
10 aware of?
11 A. Just one clarification, please. When you say to the "south of
12 Sarajevo," what area are you referring to? Perhaps you could show me on
13 a map and then I could answer that question with greater accuracy.
14 Q. You can answer it with whatever modifications you wish. If you
15 like, do you accept that there were areas within the area of operation of
16 the 1st Smbr in August 1995 which might have contained 120-millimetre
17 mortar positions that you were unaware of?
18 A. I don't know anything about that. I wouldn't want to comment. I
19 wouldn't want to answer that question because I don't know anything about
21 Q. So you accept the possibility that you were not aware of all of
22 the 120-millimetre mortar positions of the SRK in the area of
23 responsibility of the 1st Smbr in August 1995; is that right?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's not what the witness said.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I wasn't familiar with
1 matters that concern the artillery or with mortars, so I don't know where
2 they were positioned or who manned them.
3 MR. GAYNOR: Mr. President, I have no further questions.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE KWON: Could the Chamber move into private session briefly.
6 [Private session]
21 [Open session]
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Gaynor.
23 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, Mr. President. I wanted to follow-up on one
24 point concerning P5940 which is a document Mr. Karadzic raised a concern
25 that he did not see a stamp or a signature at the end of the document.
1 Mr. Reid has kindly looked into the matter and we do have the final page,
2 which for some reason was not in e-court, which bears the ERN 05292954.
3 It contains the signature and stamp of Major-General Dragomir Milosevic,
4 and I'm happy to provide a hard copy of the final page to Your Honours
5 and to the Defence right now. And we will have the final page translated
6 and uploaded to e-court as soon as we can. And we understand that the
7 final page will form part of P5940.
8 JUDGE KWON: Would you like to eliminate the first page of that
10 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, we'll do that as well, Your Honour. Good
11 point. We'll take away the first document as well. Thank you.
12 JUDGE KWON: That will be done. Thank you, Mr. Gaynor.
13 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just a few questions. I think we
15 will be done very quickly, Your Excellency.
16 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
17 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Skrba, in paragraph 10 of your statement you
18 stated that you had relatives who resided in Studenkovici and that you
19 often visited them and that you did not see mortar positions in the
20 vicinity of Studenkovici village, i.e., on that axis. I'm talking about
21 120-millimetre mortars. Does this also refer to August 1995?
22 A. Yes.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up P5940.
24 THE INTERPRETER: May it be noted that there is a lot of
25 background noise in the courtroom and it's very hard to hear either the
1 accused or the witness.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. While we are waiting for the document you were talking about
4 preparatory orders. When it comes to preparatory orders, is every one of
5 them implemented?
6 A. No.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go to the following page,
8 please. The next one, please.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Under 5 does it say the Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade will continue
11 offensive activities on the ring facing Treskavica; is that correct?
12 A. Yes, I can see that.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go to the following page
14 where it says "combat-readiness." I apologise, it says combat-readiness
15 for the attack on the 15th of May. This is the last sentence in the
16 first paragraph on the very top of the page.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go to the paragraph that
20 refers to Debelo Brdo which is perhaps either at the bottom of this page
21 or on the following page. The following page, please.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Does this document speak about something that happened or is it
24 also a preparatory order for some upcoming actions?
25 A. In my view -- I'm not sure. However, in my view this is an order
1 for preparations, for some sort of preparations, I don't know of what
2 kind, whether it's preparations for defence or for something else. I
3 don't know what this is all about.
4 Q. Thank you. When it comes to the planning of such operations
5 where additional units are planned, are additional assets also planned,
6 those that do not normally exist in the area; however, if this operation
7 is carried out they will be necessary?
8 A. As far as I know, the answer is yes.
9 Q. Thank you. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what is Debelo Brdo?
10 Is that a civilian settlement or is it just a bare mountaintop or a slope
11 on Mount Trebevic?
12 A. As the name speaks for itself, Golo Brdo is a bare hill slope.
13 Q. There are no civilian settlements there, are there?
14 MR. GAYNOR: Objection.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Almost none, perhaps a few houses
16 along the edge of the hilltop and that's where the positions of the units
18 MR. GAYNOR: Objection. I've only risen now, but I wish to
19 remind Mr. Karadzic to refrain from making leading questions. He can't
20 pretend he doesn't know the rule by now. He must refrain from leading
21 questions in re-examination.
22 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Gaynor.
23 Are you done, Mr. Karadzic?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just one more question.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Did we occupy Debelo Brdo?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Thank you, Witness.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions for the
5 witness, Your Excellencies.
6 JUDGE KWON: Well, Mr. Skrba, that concludes your evidence and on
7 behalf of the Tribunal I'd like to thank you to testify in this case, and
8 now you are free to go. Please have a safe journey back home.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
10 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber will adjourn for the day, not deducting
11 the time from the Defence case.
12 We'll continue tomorrow morning at 9.00.
13 There are a couple of things, yes. Excuse me.
14 Mr. Robinson, the Chamber has received two filings, a revised
15 notification with respect to two witnesses whose request for protective
16 measures have been denied. What's the point of maintaining the
17 pseudonyms in the filings? Probably you need to re-file them.
18 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, I did that because it was
19 unclear until this morning whether those witnesses would have the
20 opportunity to address the Court, but now that you've made it clear we
21 can file it publicly.
22 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
23 There's one further matter which is today the accused filed a
24 request for leave to reply a motion for videolink and consideration of
25 protective measures for Witness KW-533. Given the limited scope of the
1 proposed reply, the Chamber will grant the request pursuant to
2 Rule 126 bis of the Rules and orders that the accused file his reply no
3 later than Tuesday, 23rd of October, 2012.
4 One more thing, shall we go into private session, but before that
5 we can excuse the -- the witness can be excused.
6 Thank you, Mr. Skrba.
7 [The witness withdrew]
8 JUDGE KWON: Are we in private session? Yes, shall we --
9 [Private session]
24 [Open session]
25 JUDGE KWON: The hearing is now adjourned.
1 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.38 p.m.,
2 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 23rd day of
3 October, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.