Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 29129

 1                           Monday, 22 October 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, good morning everyone.

 7             Good morning, Ms. West.  Please continue.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.  Before we continue with the witness, I would

11     just like to put something on the record that happened since our last

12     sitting and that is on Tuesday of last week we disclosed the identity of

13     17 of our witnesses by filing Rule 92 ter notifications, and on Friday I

14     received an e-mail from one of those witnesses indicating that his family

15     in Sarajevo had been threatened and he was no longer willing to testify.

16     So we informed the Chamber and OTP of this and also reported it to the

17     Victims and Witnesses Section.  And on Friday I -- afternoon I met with

18     the Victims and Witnesses Section protection officers and --

19             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson, sorry to interrupt you.  Do you wish

20     to continue in open session in the presence of this witness?

21             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, we want the public to be

22     aware -- want this to be a matter of public record.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Are you not seeking specific remedy for that?

24             MR. ROBINSON:  No, not in this case, but we're trying to deter

25     this from happening again.

Page 29130

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue, Mr. Robinson.

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, thank you, Mr. President.  So we informed the

 4     protection officers of the Victims and Witnesses Section on Friday

 5     afternoon and they promised to follow-up on this matter.  And we

 6     conducted our own investigation also over the weekend.  As the Chamber

 7     knows, under Rule 77 interfering with the administration of justice and a

 8     witness is punishable by up to seven years' imprisonment and we had not

 9     had any single instance of interference or threat or intimidation during

10     the Prosecution case, and we're concerned that in the first week of the

11     Defence case we already have such an incident.  And I wanted to nip it in

12     the bud by serving notice at this time that such incidents would be taken

13     very seriously.  And we would ask the Chamber and the Prosecution as well

14     as the Bosnian authorities for its full co-operation when such incidents

15     occur.  Thank you.  That's all I wanted to say.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

17             Yes, Ms. West.

18             I forgot to inform you that we are sitting pursuant to Rule 15

19     bis with Judge Lattanzi away due to her urgent personal matters.

20             MS. WEST:  Good morning, Mr. President.  Good morning,

21     Your Honours.

22                           WITNESS:  DUSAN SKRBA [Resumed]

23                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

24                           Cross-examination by Ms. West: [Continued]

25        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Skrba.

Page 29131

 1        A.   Good morning.

 2        Q.   I just want to go back to a couple of the things that we spoke

 3     about last week, and on Thursday in our discussion of proportionate fire

 4     you mentioned hospitals.  And at transcript 29123 you said that you did

 5     not retaliate against hospitals because we were always afraid of

 6     inflicting major civilian casualties if we had done that.

 7             I then asked you whether there were other locations in the city

 8     that you considered completely off limits, and at the time you didn't

 9     answer my question so I'd like to try it again.  Do you have any other

10     examples like hospitals of locations that were off limits for firing?

11        A.   Hospitals, bus stations, railway stations and rail lines,

12     schools, and all the areas where larger groups of civilians tend to

13     gather, those were the facilities that we didn't target.

14        Q.   When you say "all the areas where larger groups of civilians tend

15     to gather," what exactly do you mean by that?

16        A.   I was born and raised there, so I knew where bus stops were,

17     where tram stations were, big supermarkets where people went to get their

18     supplies, and wherever the frequency of the civilian population was quite

19     high, those were the areas that we did not expose to fire.

20        Q.   And so taking, for example, again the hospital, how near to the

21     hospital would you consider a reasonable distance to fire at?

22        A.   Generally speaking, we did not open fire at areas around

23     hospitals, be it 500 metres or 1 kilometre.  In general terms, areas

24     around hospitals were not our firing targets.  I already told you that

25     the military hospital and Kosevo hospital were among them.

Page 29132

 1        Q.   Now, you just said "be it 500 metres or 1 kilometre," are you

 2     suggesting within --

 3        A.   Yes, yes.

 4        Q.   So within 1 kilometre of a hospital, you would not fire within 1

 5     kilometre around it?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And this distance would be applicable as well to all those other

 8     areas you mentioned, you spoke about railway stations, bus stations,

 9     areas where large groups of civilians tend to gather?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Now, I understand that the reason you did this is because you did

12     not want to potentially kill any civilians, but were there any

13     circumstances where you would have accepted the risk of civilian deaths?

14        A.   Even in such cases I wouldn't open fire if I thought that the

15     civilian population was at risk.

16        Q.   On Thursday you spoke about preparation regarding firing at page

17     transcript 29111.  You said that there was simple preparation,

18     abbreviated preparation, and full preparation.  Do you remember talking

19     about that?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   So let's start with full preparation.  Can you tell us what that

22     includes?

23        A.   Full preparation involves bulletins, the correct co-ordinations

24     of the targets, topographic co-ordinations, and when you have all that

25     you fire one or two shells to the target that you want to reach.  But the

Page 29133

 1     preparation is rather long.  You have to have the right temperature of

 2     the year, the right ammunition preparation, the charge, and the data must

 3     not be more than two hours old.

 4        Q.   Okay.  So you said -- in the beginning you said you needed the

 5     correct co-ordinates of the targets, the topographic co-ordinates.  Would

 6     you also need to know what the objective was?  Besides just the

 7     geographical location, would you need to know what the objective of the

 8     target was?

 9        A.   I told you, this was done based on what I received from my

10     observers or what I received from my superior command.  They had to know

11     what the objective was, was it a trench or a piece of weaponry, and based

12     on that it would be decided what to do because you had to know what kind

13     of weaponry was used on the other side, what kind of weaponry fire was

14     being opened from by the enemy.

15        Q.   Tell us what abbreviated preparation included.

16        A.   The abbreviated preparation excludes the air temperature, and if

17     we couldn't do that we used a so-called simple preparation which involved

18     topographic preparation.  When you had that, you fired one or two shells

19     and then you correct fire.  If you managed to hit your target in the

20     first go, then you didn't do anything.  And in order to reach the target,

21     you have to have an area around it of 50 metres.  If you are within that

22     range --

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to intervene.  I'm not sure

24     that this sentence is correct:  [In English] "If you managed to hit your

25     target in the first go, then you didn't do anything."  Then you didn't do

Page 29134

 1     anything.

 2             I think the witness didn't say that.

 3             MS. WEST:

 4        Q.   Sir, let me ask you again.  You were speaking about simple

 5     preparation and you said it involved topographic preparation.  Tell us

 6     again what that included.

 7        A.   Simple preparation means that you have to have all the elements

 8     from the topographic map, you fire a shell after you have calculated all

 9     the elements, and then you fire one shell towards the enemy and towards

10     your target.  A successful hit is anything within the range of 50 metres.

11        Q.   So as I understand it, simple preparation just means having the

12     location and then attempting to fire at that particular location?

13        A.   Yes, but you have to have a topographic map in a certain scale,

14     25.000 or 50.000, and you have to be precise when transferring all the

15     elements.  You have to know whether your observers have calculated the

16     azimuth, the level of the observation line, and everything else.

17        Q.   So the other day when we were speaking about the type of fire

18     that your unit would engage in, you told us that it was in all cases

19     defensive retaliatory fire, you gave us one exception, but it was mostly

20     retaliatory fire that had to be very quick.  It that it was -- it took

21     five to ten minutes to retaliate.  In those cases were you referring to

22     this type of preparation, simple preparation?  Is that the type of

23     preparation you employed?

24        A.   Simple preparation can be done within the scope of five minutes,

25     hence the term:  Simple.

Page 29135

 1        Q.   Yet full preparation would take much longer; correct?

 2        A.   Full preparation takes much longer.  You have to measure the air

 3     temperature, the gunpowder temperature, this must not be older than two

 4     hours.  The temperature changes from let's say in the morning until

 5     the --

 6             THE ACCUSED:  May I be of any help to say

 7     "metal [indiscernible]," metal means "metrological elements for the

 8     fire."  The transcript so far didn't comprise this expression.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Let us continue.

10             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

11        Q.   And just so I'm absolutely clear, in the cases where you were

12     firing in retaliation, in those situations you would use simple

13     preparation?

14        A.   Yes.

15             MS. WEST:  May I have 65 ter 23928.

16        Q.   And this is a document from August 1994.  It's from the corps

17     command and it's an order for full combat-readiness.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. West.

19             MS. WEST:  Yes.

20             JUDGE KWON:  I was told it was not released yet.

21             MS. WEST:  May I have a moment, Mr. President.

22             Can we have P01614, please.

23        Q.   And this is going to be the implementation order for the document

24     that we will see in a moment.  And if we can go to page 2, please, this

25     is to the command of the 3rd Infantry Battalion, but on page 2 of

Page 29136

 1     this - and again it's August 1994 - under paragraph 9 we see:

 2             "Co-ordinate actions with the units of the 1st Mixed Artillery

 3     Battalion of the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade and plan fire at the

 4     eastern slopes ..."

 5             Mr. Skrba, that refers to your unit; correct?

 6        A.   Well, it says here Major Goran and that's not me.

 7        Q.   Correct.  And the direction to Major Goran is to co-ordinate

 8     actions with your unit.  Do you have a memory of this?

 9        A.   I did not receive this order.

10        Q.   Again I understand that, sir.  My question is:  Do you have a

11     memory in August of 1994 of this co-ordination for full combat-readiness?

12        A.   I don't remember.  I did not read this order and maybe at that

13     time I was somewhere else in another part of the front line.

14        Q.   Can we go to page 1 of this order, please.  Even though you say

15     you didn't receive this order, I just want to talk to you about some

16     language in this order.  It's already something that we've already

17     addressed once.  And under paragraph 1 it says:

18             "I hereby order:

19             "All 2nd Sarajevo Light Infantry Brigade units and positions and

20     in areas of disposition, MUP units in the zone of responsibility, work

21     obligation units, and the population are to be placed at full b/g."

22             And then it says:

23             "At all costs stop possible enemy attacks on any section of the

24     brigade's line of contact."

25             Now, the other day we spoke about targeting language and you were

Page 29137

 1     saying that it has to be very specific, and you also spoke about

 2     proportionate fire.  Would you agree with me that the phrase "at all

 3     costs" is very different than the proportionate fire that you spoke of

 4     adhering to?

 5        A.   Obviously "at all costs" means that in case of an enemy attack we

 6     shouldn't allow their passage through our area.  So the means were

 7     different.  Fire had to be more fierce.  If we had such targets, we would

 8     fire a lot more than just one or two shells that we would fire in other

 9     situations when we wanted to avoid collateral damage.  This is a

10     different situation.  This is a full enemy attack.

11        Q.   Okay.  And you just said "if we had such targets," but here it

12     says:

13             "At all costs stop possible enemy attacks ..."

14             Here there aren't even actual targets, it's just possible

15     targets.  Is this type of language something that you would find to be

16     appropriate and consistent with what you spoke about the other day?

17        A.   I apologise.  However, if you find yourself in a situation when

18     the enemy wants to break through our forward defence line, why else would

19     we have been there if not to stop such an attempt.

20        Q.   Sir, that's not responsive to my question.  My question is:  Do

21     you find this language to be in keeping with what you described to us to

22     be detailed targeted language at specific locations?

23        A.   This order was issued in a totally different segment of warfare.

24     It refers to a possible enemy attack or a breakthrough.  If the enemy

25     wanted to break through our lines and enter our territory, and this is a

Page 29138

 1     completely different situation to the one that I described previously.

 2     It is not the same thing to open fire on the front line in order to

 3     interrupt the cease-fire on the one hand and to stop the enemy who is

 4     attempting to break through your forward defence lines.  The two

 5     situations are completely different.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Then let's go to what we were speaking about the other

 7     day, which was specific targets.  And when we ended on Thursday I had

 8     asked you to look at the map that I gave you and that was 65 ter 23918,

 9     and specifically we're looking at map 3.

10             And when we ended off I asked you to take a look at this map and

11     to tell us where the tank was located that you referred to in paragraph

12     18 of your statement.  And, sir, if you can go to -- you can turn the

13     page --

14        A.   I can do it on this map too.  Do you want this one?

15        Q.   There you go.  That one.

16        A.   The tank was below Hum and it moved around the curves depending

17     on what it wanted to target.

18        Q.   And we will just ask the usher if he can turn on the screen so

19     you can actually mark this on the screen in front of you.

20        A.   [Marks]

21        Q.   So it's your testimony that that's where the tank was located

22     that you spoke about in paragraph 18?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And was that tank located there throughout the entire war?

25        A.   I don't know, I wasn't there.  However, it opened fire from

Page 29139

 1     there.

 2        Q.   Well, in paragraph 18 of your statement you said:

 3             "Velesici May 1992 a tank during the entire war ..."

 4             Was it located there during the entire war.

 5        A.   It opened fire from there in 1992, in 1993, in 1994, but I don't

 6     know whether it was stationed there all the time or perhaps it was moved

 7     to some other lines.  When it did open fire, however, it opened it from

 8     this location.

 9        Q.   Okay.  To make sure I understand, it's your testimony that when

10     it opened fire it was located there, but you do not understand that it

11     was actually located there throughout the entire war?

12        A.   When it opened fire on Zlatiste and Vrace on our forward defence

13     lines, that's where it fired from.  I don't know whether it moved further

14     away from here, downward, or somewhere else, I don't know.  I wasn't

15     there all the time.

16        Q.   Just to be sure I understand what you're saying, at line 12 you

17     said:

18             "... I don't know.  I wasn't there all the time."

19             Did you say "I wasn't there all the time" or "it wasn't there all

20     the time"?

21        A.   I will repeat for the thousandth time.  I was not there in order

22     to know whether it was there all the time; however, it opened fire from

23     that location in 1992, in 1993, in 1994.

24        Q.   During those same years, how often did you shoot at that tank?

25        A.   I can't give you the exact figure, but perhaps seven or eight

Page 29140

 1     times -- six to eight times I suppose.

 2        Q.   Over the course of 1992, 1993, 1994, and into 1995?

 3        A.   I did not mention 1995 at all.

 4        Q.   Okay.  My mistake.  So three years.  And obviously you failed to

 5     destroy it because you kept on shooting; correct?

 6        A.   The crew was good.  The drivers were good I suppose.

 7        Q.   I want to look at -- I want to review what type of targeting went

 8     on in Velesici to see what you knew about it.

 9             MS. WEST:  P01522, please.

10        Q.   And let me back up.  Can you put your signature on this and give

11     us a date.  The date is October 22nd, please.

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MS. WEST:  P015 --

15             JUDGE KWON:  This will be next Prosecution exhibit.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P5935, Your Honours.

17             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

18             And now P01522.

19        Q.   This is another intercept between General Mladic and the

20     gentleman Potpara.  We saw an intercept between the two of them the other

21     day as well.  I know you're not a party to it, this intercept, but I want

22     to ask you about it.  So we have the B/C/S and I'll just read along in

23     English and it will come up.  In this they're on the phone and

24     General Mladic says:

25             "What's the news?

Page 29141

 1             "A.  No news.

 2             "Mladic:  Are you firing something?

 3             "A.  No, I'm not firing anything.

 4             "Mladic:  Is there shelling close to you?

 5             "A.  No shelling close to me.

 6             "Where is the shelling going on?

 7             "A.  I don't know.  This way up towards the tobacco factory

 8     Pofalici.

 9             "Mladic:  Have Velesici been shelled?

10             "A.  Yep.

11             "Mladic:  Have they been hit there?

12             "A.  Yes, they have.

13             "There will be more of it there.

14             "A.  All right."

15             Now, I'm just going to stop there.  When Mladic said "has

16     Velesici been shelled," this is in the past tense, but this is a period

17     of time, end of May 1992, in which you were involved, what would have

18     been the target in Velesici?

19        A.   I don't know.  I couldn't say what target is at stake on the

20     basis of this interception, but if that's the 29th, then I know that

21     Velesici was shelled and over 80 per cent of the population was civilian

22     and there were Serbians.  Then there were attempts on the part of the

23     Muslim forces to drive out the Serbs and to take territory if it happened

24     during that period of time.

25        Q.   So would you agree that this language suggests that there is no

Page 29142

 1     specific target other than the town itself?

 2        A.   I couldn't agree.  I'm not familiar with the conversation that

 3     concerns opening fire, the target, the reasons for which fire was opened.

 4     On the basis of this intercept, it's not possible for me to draw any

 5     conclusions.

 6        Q.   Okay.  So I'd like to go to the day before to see if we can get

 7     any more information about this.

 8             MS. WEST:  Can I have P1521, and this is May 28th.  And if I can

 9     have page 2 of the English.

10        Q.   This is another intercept between Mladic and Mirko Vukasinovic.

11     And in the first page they're just sort of handling introductions, but

12     when we get to the second page Mladic sayings:

13             "Do not shell the barracks.  Can you reach Velesici?

14             "A.  Yes.

15             "Do you have a gun pointed at some target there?

16             "Yes, I do.

17             "Mladic:  You do or you do not?

18             "A.  I do.

19             "Mladic:  How soon can you fire?

20             "A.  Well, I could fire in five or ten minutes, no sooner than

21     that.

22             "Mladic:  Tell me, can you shell Bascarsija?

23             "Yes, I can."

24             And then Mladic says:

25             "I beg your pardon."

Page 29143

 1             Sir, again, you're not privy to these conversations, but

 2     nonetheless you've told the Court that also you were responsible for

 3     targeting a tank in the same area for three years.  Can you agree with me

 4     that at least from this conversation it appears that General Mladic has

 5     no information on any particular target, only some target?

 6        A.   Well, I wouldn't agree because they can probably see Velesici and

 7     see whether there's any fighting there.  They didn't ask for that part of

 8     the town to be shelled for no reason.  There must have been some kind of

 9     reason for this.

10        Q.   Sir, we're going to go to the next town or section of town that

11     you mentioned in your paragraph 18, and if we can go back to 65 ter

12     23918, we will go to map 5, which is Ciglane.  So you can turn the

13     page --

14        A.   I can use this too.

15        Q.   But if you turn the page you'll get a bigger -- there you go.

16     Now, this is the area on the other side of the tunnel from Velesici;

17     correct?

18        A.   It's in the town in the direction of the hospital.

19        Q.   And we don't need to do this in e-court, but if you just turn

20     your page you're going to see a satellite version of this same town.  Do

21     you see that?  We don't need to do it in e-court.  And looking at those

22     two maps, can you tell us what the general nature of the area was?  Was

23     it a residential area?  Was it an industrial area?

24        A.   Well, this is a residential area exclusively.

25        Q.   And if you can go back to the map we see on the screen right now,

Page 29144

 1     I think you had mentioned -- strike that.

 2             Was there a hospital in Ciglane?

 3        A.   Well, by the entrance of the tunnel from which the tank would

 4     come out there was no hospital.

 5        Q.   Okay.  So if we can stop there on e-court, and I'll direct your

 6     attention to the number 81 which is in the middle of the screen --

 7             MS. WEST:  And perhaps e-court can focus in on that 81 and that

 8     126 in red numbers.  Right there.

 9        Q.   Now, that's the area of the hospital and the college of medicine;

10     correct?

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The witness mumbled

12     something but it was not audible.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know what you want me to

14     say.  What sort of answer would you like?  What was your question?

15             MS. WEST:

16        Q.   My question was -- regarded a hospital, and my question was:  In

17     the area of -- you see the numbers 81 and 126.  To your knowledge is that

18     the area of the hospital?

19        A.   Yes, I can see that.

20        Q.   And is that where the hospital was located?

21        A.   The hospital is 71 and this location has been marked as 81, the

22     medical faculty.

23        Q.   Right.  And I think in fact there are two hospitals.  You're

24     correct.  There's a 71 up in the corner of this map which is also a

25     hospital, but do you remember 81 also being a hospital as well?

Page 29145

 1        A.   That's the main part.

 2        Q.   All right.

 3        A.   I know that there was the medical faculty there.  As to whether

 4     there was a hospital in the medical faculty, I don't know.  It's

 5     possible, they could have done all sorts of things.

 6        Q.   Very good.  That's --

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In line 19, line 19 is the answer.

 8     It's not part of the question which what the transcript would lead one to

 9     believe.

10             MS. WEST:

11        Q.   Thank you.  I just want to go back to something you just said.

12     When I started talking about this hospital, you said:

13             "Well, by the entrance of the tunnel from which the tank would

14     come out there was no hospital."

15             When you say "entrance of the tunnel the tank would come out,"

16     tell us a little bit more about that.  Was the tank parked inside the

17     tunnel?

18        A.   The tank was in the tunnel; that is certain.  The tank that they

19     had seized from the French [as interpreted], the self-propelled gun.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to make a correction.  They

21     seized the self-propelled gun from the French.  They didn't seize the

22     tank from the French, only the self-propelled gun.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Because of overlapping, the interpreters didn't get

24     it right.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wanted to say that the witness

Page 29146

 1     said that they seized the self-propelled gun from the French.  That

 2     wasn't transcribed.  It seemed as if it was the tank that had been seized

 3     from the French.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  It was, it was transcribed, but it was not correctly

 5     transcribed because of your intervention, Mr. Karadzic.

 6             Yes, could you repeat your answer, Mr. Skrba.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They came out of the tunnel, the

 8     tank, especially in 1991, and later the self-propelled gun seized from

 9     the French, but they were parked in the tunnel.

10             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11        Q.   This tank that you're describing, is this the same tank that you

12     noted in -- earlier in Velesici that you indicated on the map?

13        A.   I don't think so.  I don't think so.  I think it's a different

14     one.

15        Q.   Okay.  How often in your time in Sarajevo did you shoot at the

16     tank in Ciglane?

17        A.   Well, six to eight times as was the case in Velesici during these

18     three or four years, but in 1994 and 1995 it's the French tank --

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Says the witness.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That went into action more

21     frequently while they had ammunition and shells.

22             MS. WEST:

23        Q.   And when you shot at that tank, you made sure that there were no

24     civilians around; correct?

25        A.   Yes, of course.  I had a look to make sure there weren't any

Page 29147

 1     civilians, but the tank, when the tank goes into action they all flee --

 2     I mean when their tank goes into action.

 3        Q.   And in paragraph 18 this was the only target that you mention in

 4     Ciglane.  Were there other targets in Ciglane?

 5        A.   Well, I didn't have any other targets.  I didn't fire on any

 6     other targets.

 7             MS. WEST:  May we have P0820, please, and for e-court that will

 8     be page 59.

 9        Q.   The Trial Chamber has heard some evidence from a senior

10     United Nations military officer who said or confirmed at paragraph --

11     e-court page 59, please.  Confirmed at paragraph 197 that in June of 1995

12     five people were injured when a shell hit the Ciglane outdoor market.

13             Mr. Skrba, can you tell us what the target was then in June of

14     1995 in Ciglane?

15        A.   It's possible that the tank went into action again or the gun,

16     and then there was a defect when the gun fired the shell.

17        Q.   Well, you were very specific in telling us that the tank was

18     only -- you only fired at the tank in 1992, 1993, and 1994.  This is

19     1995.

20        A.   I'm saying I don't know that I opened fire at the time, but if

21     anyone from the Serbian positions returned fire that was probably because

22     of the tank or the self-propelled gun coming out of the tunnel and

23     perhaps there was a technical error that related to the weather

24     conditions or the gunpowder and so on and so forth.  So perhaps there was

25     something defective; however, I'm not familiar with that event.

Page 29148

 1        Q.   Okay.  But earlier in your testimony when you were talking about

 2     full preparation, the weather and the ammunition -- or excuse me, the

 3     weather conditions or the gunpowder, those are things that would be

 4     checked during full preparation - correct? - to ensure that the firing

 5     would be accurate?

 6        A.   All this is checked, but if the gunpowder was wet when the weapon

 7     was being loaded, if the temperatures are high, then the shell can fall

 8     short of its target or it can be defective.  It's like in the case of

 9     doctors who make mistakes.  For example, they cut into tissue too deeply

10     and then it's too late.

11        Q.   But your answer is limited to occasions of full preparation.

12     When we spoke about simple preparation, none of this stuff was checked;

13     isn't that right?

14        A.   Everything is checked.  But, for example, if you have cases of

15     ammunition and you take the top case and it was raining, then the

16     gunpowder might be wet.  So when you use that gunpowder to fire from a

17     weapon, the conditions have changed.  So in spite of the fact that you

18     previously made checks, the shell can fall short of its target or it can

19     overreach its target.

20        Q.   Thank you, sir.  And I think we understand now the variables that

21     go into accurate targeting.  But my point is earlier today you said in

22     terms of simple preparation none of this was done, none of this checking

23     was done.  The only thing that happened was that you had a topographical

24     map, you had a location, and you fired to see if you were accurate.

25     Isn't that correct?

Page 29149

 1        A.   Yes.  And we have observers who try to see where the shell falls.

 2     This is why targeting is corrected in the artillery.

 3             MS. WEST:  May we go back to the map 65 ter 23918, and now we're

 4     going to go to map 7, which is Bjelave.  This is the next area that you

 5     spoke about in paragraph 18.  Thank you.

 6        Q.   We can see from this map the streets and the roads -

 7             MS. WEST:  And we don't need to do this in e-court.

 8        Q.   But if you just turn the page, you'll see the satellite version

 9     of this same area.  Can you describe the general nature of this area,

10     please?

11        A.   This is a civilian area, almost a hundred per cent.  I think the

12     buildings are mostly residential buildings, but some are perhaps also

13     collectively owned buildings.

14        Q.   And in paragraph 18 you pin-pointed this area, saying:

15             In June 1992 there were 120-millimetre mortars that you targeted.

16     Can you show us on this map by writing where those mortars were located?

17        A.   Well, I didn't fire on this area, I never did.  You can't claim

18     that I did.  I only heard that there were mortars positioned there, but

19     my unit never fired on them.  Others did.  But I heard from my

20     colleagues, from neighbours, and so on and so forth that there were

21     120-millimetre mortars that were located there.

22        Q.   Okay.  We'll skip to the next one at paragraph 18.

23             MS. WEST:  And if in e-court we can go to map 9, please.

24        Q.   And this is when you discussed city hall.  And in paragraph 18

25     you said you received information that city hall had been turned into an

Page 29150

 1     ammunition dump -- depot and this was August of 1992.  By looking at this

 2     map can you pin-point where city hall is or the library?

 3             MS. WEST:  Apologies to the usher.

 4             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

 5             MS. WEST:

 6        Q.   Thank you very much.  Now you call this city hall in your

 7     statement, but this was the location of the library; correct?

 8        A.   That's what we called it.

 9        Q.   Okay.  The information that you received, when exactly did you

10     receive it?

11        A.   Well, perhaps at the beginning of August, information that there

12     were large warehouses in which ammunition was being kept there.

13        Q.   And what was the source of the information?

14        A.   Well, the source of information was their media, the television.

15        Q.   You mean the source of your intelligence that it was being kept

16     as an ammunition depot was the television?

17        A.   Yes, there was the news on two or three occasions in the evening

18     and you could see a lot of people walking around there carrying cases of

19     ammunition.  As to whether they were carrying them to the positions or

20     taking them there, I don't know, but they were there in the vicinity and

21     they were caught on camera.

22        Q.   All right.  So at the end of August there --

23        A.   At the beginning of August.

24        Q.   So the information you received you received at the beginning of

25     August, but the actual shelling of the library was August 27th; correct?

Page 29151

 1        A.   I don't know because -- let me repeat what I have said.  My unit

 2     didn't shell any targets there.  If other units from our army did, well,

 3     it would be normal if this caught fire on the top, but it was on fire at

 4     the bottom.  So I'm wondering how that is possible.  How can it be on

 5     fire at the bottom level and not at the top, especially if what we're

 6     dealing with is ammunition.

 7        Q.   So let's back up.  The information that you understood that it

 8     was an ammunition depot came from seeing on the television people walking

 9     around carrying cases of ammunition in the vicinity; is that right?

10        A.   Yes.  Here you have the tram lines.  It wasn't working at the

11     time, but you could see people walking around carrying these cases.  This

12     could be seen from these observation posts.

13        Q.   And you had no further information that the actual library --

14        A.   No, no.

15        Q.   And is it your testimony today that it was not your unit that

16     fired at the library, it was somebody else's unit?

17        A.   Our unit wasn't assigned the task of firing on those targets.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I object.  The witness didn't say

19     that some other unit opened fire.  The witness said he doubted it was the

20     result of shelling because the fire was ground level; the top of the

21     building, the roof, hadn't caught fire.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Well, in any event, Ms. West, this shelling of

23     library was stricken out from the indictment, wasn't it?

24             MS. WEST:  Indeed it was, Your Honour, but this witness speaks of

25     it specifically in his statement so that's why I'm asking about it.  In

Page 29152

 1     addition, putting that aside, I think it's relevant to everything that

 2     happened in Sarajevo.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we move on now?

 4             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5        Q.   Sir, just one more question about the area, not the library

 6     itself.  This area of the down-town -- or strike that --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  By the way, would you like to tender this marked

 8     map?

 9             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President, I would.

10        Q.   If you could put the date and your signature on this.

11        A.   [Marks]

12             JUDGE KWON:  So this will be Exhibit P5936.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  That's correct, Your Honours.

14             MS. WEST:

15        Q.   Mr. Skrba, I hadn't already asked you, but can you describe the

16     nature of this down-town area.  What type of things were located there?

17        A.   Well, the name of the town is a -- pretty densely populated town

18     mostly with some 20 to 30 per cent of collective housing units.

19     Otherwise, it's all single, individual, housing units.

20             MS. WEST:  And if we could turn to map 11, please.  It's two more

21     pages.

22        Q.   We're now going to look at a map of Dobrinja.  And map 11 is the

23     one that shows the roads.  And if we can just turn the page - we don't

24     need to do this in e-court - you can see the satellite as well.

25     Mr. Skrba, please describe the nature of Dobrinja.

Page 29153

 1        A.   Dobrinja is a new neighbourhood built before the Olympic games in

 2     1974 and it's exclusively housing facilities with collective

 3     accommodation.

 4        Q.   And in paragraph 21 of your report you spoke about scheduled

 5     incident G7 which was an incident in Dobrinja.  And in that paragraph you

 6     noted that at the -- you noted that the allegation is that 120-millimetre

 7     mortars were fired at Dobrinja, and specifically you said at the

 8     battalion level there were no 120-millimetre weapons but they were in the

 9     MAD under my control in your unit, and I claim that no fire was opened

10     that day from 120-millimetre mortars for it would have to be in the

11     report of UNPROFOR observers who were on duty at my command post

12     around-the-clock and would have heard firing of a shell.

13             I want to talk about the UNPROFOR -- you called them UNPROFOR

14     officers who were there, because in another part of your statement at

15     paragraph 14 you said that these members were always on duty with you

16     around-the-clock.  So my question is:  What was the name of the UNMO most

17     at your command?

18        A.   Lima 5 and they were there from the 1st of July, 1992, until the

19     end of the war.

20        Q.   And do I understand correctly that your testimony is that those

21     military observers knew at what targets you were firing because they were

22     posted at your command?

23        A.   Yes, they were there in the same room as me.  They were on duty

24     there for 24 hours.  They slept there too.

25        Q.   Sir, are you suggesting that their presence had some effect on

Page 29154

 1     your firing, as to whether you would fire at one target or whether you

 2     would fire somewhere else?

 3        A.   We would inform them every time we fired.  We never fired a shell

 4     without informing them first.  They were standing there with us, sitting

 5     there, or if it was night they were sleeping there.  We would be

 6     sleeping, then if -- at night I would wake up, they would wake up, and

 7     since they were sitting there with me they would hear exactly if one,

 8     two, or three shells were fired and they would record that.  During those

 9     four years, they never said anything in terms of not approving or not

10     agreeing with my reports about everything that was fired in -- during the

11     war.

12             MS. WEST:  P01426, please.  And may we have page 19, please.

13        Q.   Mr. Skrba, this Court has heard evidence from senior military

14     observer particularly about Lima 5.  And beginning at page 79 he says he

15     visited the Limas OPs.  He's observed instances of what he believed to be

16     indiscriminate fire on the city with weapons, and I'll quote.  He says:

17             "When you are at a gun site, and weapons fire, as an UNMO you are

18     not party to the range map which the commander is using to determine his

19     target.  As a result, I always asked that my UN military observers to ask

20     local commanders what their target was, in an attempt to determine if it

21     was acceptable as a target or not.  We were, by virtue of the system I

22     have described, only as effective as the answer I was given by the local

23     commander.  They did not prevent us persisting in the attempt to reduce

24     the level of tension created upon the city by reducing the numbers of

25     rounds fired."

Page 29155

 1             So, Mr. Skrba, my question is this:  Do you agree that the only

 2     way the military observers knew what the target was was if the commanders

 3     told them what it was?

 4        A.   That is not correct.

 5        Q.   Let's look at an example of this and I'll ask you another

 6     question.  If we can go on to paragraph 80.

 7             "On several occasions I personally brought such pressure to bear

 8     on the local commanders concerning firing on the city.  On occasions I

 9     received answers that I regarded as unsatisfactory.  I received answers

10     that were trivial, such as the commander telling me at the Lima 5

11     position, when firing his mortar rounds, that he was 'warming the

12     barrels.'  I accept warming the barrels is a requirement if you have a

13     fire mission and you then proceed with that fire mission, but the

14     instances that I recall, the firing ceased after a few rounds, whether

15     because of my intervention or not, I cannot determine, but it rather

16     negated the original reason for firing the weapons in the first instance.

17     The rationale for firing the weapon was irrational and vague; I don't

18     think there was a specific target.  On another particular occasion, I was

19     told that the three rounds that had been fired were one for each finger

20     of the Serb salute."

21             Mr. Skrba, the Lima 5 position was the position at your post;

22     correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And you would agree with me that the information the commander

25     gave this UNMO was not very informative, was it?

Page 29156

 1        A.   I cannot agree with that.  I would like to face that person, if

 2     necessary, so that we can look at each other in the eye.  We were sitting

 3     there together.  He could see where the barrels were turned, where the

 4     fire went, and he would take the number of fired shells from me or from

 5     my deputy if I was not there.  And he never made any kind of oral or

 6     written objection to these reports.  I don't want to keep repeating these

 7     things.  I don't want to say anything that did not happen.

 8        Q.   I'd like to turn to paragraph 17 of your statement, and in that

 9     paragraph you talked about aerial bombs.  You said:

10             "My unit had no contact with aerial bombs nor were they used;

11     i.e., launched in my zone on enemy military targets.  Although the

12     brigade had a number of aerial bombs on stock, they were never used in

13     our zone of responsibility."

14             So you concede that the brigade did have aerial bombs; correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And when you say "they were never used in our zone of

17     responsibility," you're speaking about that area on the map that you

18     indicated for one of the Defence exhibit, that entire area that was under

19     your control?

20        A.   Yes, I'm saying it was not used from that area and that the

21     aerial bombs that existed were found by my brigade at the end of the war.

22     They were never used.  They remained in stock.

23        Q.   So is your testimony no aerial bombs were used out of that zone

24     at all?

25        A.   No aerial bombs were used as far as I know, and the ones that we

Page 29157

 1     had within the brigade stayed unused and were found at the end of the war

 2     because for that you would need to have special weapons, special

 3     artillery to be able to fire them, and we didn't have that.

 4        Q.   How would you describe the accuracy of an air bomb?

 5        A.   I don't have any experience with that.  I didn't do that even

 6     during my military term of office or during the war.  I really never

 7     dealt with that, so I wouldn't wish to talk about it.

 8        Q.   Okay.  So I know you say that you never personally dealt with it,

 9     but because of your position you must have some experience, and let me

10     ask you this:  Air bombs could only be directed at a general area;

11     correct?

12        A.   I don't know.  I didn't read the instructions on their use, so I

13     really cannot say much.  I cannot answer that question.  I never used

14     them.  I never prepared them for use, so I really never dealt with them

15     and I never allowed anyone to use them in my area of responsibility.

16        Q.   Well, Mr. Skrba, you'll have to forgive me but you were the

17     commander of this artillery unit.  You've conceded that the brigade had

18     air bombs.  Are you saying that you cannot in any way tell this Court now

19     whether they were accurate weapons or inaccurate weapons?

20        A.   If I didn't deal with something, didn't use it, I cannot say

21     whether it's good or not good.  You cannot say that you conducted

22     surgery, carried out surgery, on somebody if you did not.

23        Q.   Well, I think this subject matter might be a little bit

24     different, so let's give you an example.

25             MS. WEST:  P1310, please.

Page 29158

 1        Q.   This is a document dated April 1995, it's to the Main Staff.

 2     It's from the chief of artillery of the SRK.  Thank you.  And in the

 3     English it says:

 4             "At the morning briefing ... the decision was taken to fire on

 5     Donji Kotorac using air bombs."

 6             The second paragraph is:

 7             "The firing was supposed to be executed in the early evening

 8     hours and all the necessary prep for the firing to be executed were to

 9     have been made beforehand."

10             But then at paragraph 3 it talks about the assessment of all the

11     facilities in the immediate vicinity of the tunnel entrance, which in

12     this case was the target, and he says that:

13             "We have established through measuring carried out using

14     instruments that two UNPROFOR points are at most 200 metres away, while

15     the UNPROFOR observers are constantly moving from their ... stations

16     throughout the settlement ..."

17             And then in the next paragraph he additionally says:

18             "Our forward defence line is ... 500 metres away from the tunnel

19     entrance and the direction of fire is over the 'Kula' restaurant.

20             "Because I was unable to report this information to the commander

21     after reconnaissance, as he was in the zone of responsibility of the

22     Igman Brigade, I have abandoned the firing on account of it jeopardising

23     the security of our own forces and that of the UN forces."

24             Mr. Skrba, would you agree with me that the basis of the decision

25     to abandon fire using air bomb is because the UN were 200 metres from the

Page 29159

 1     target and the defence line was 500 metres from the target.  Is that the

 2     basis of the decision to abandon it?

 3        A.   Well, the person who received the order to carry it out and then

 4     decided not to carry it out is the one to answer.  I cannot answer that.

 5     This is something that has to do with the corps command.  They have their

 6     own unit for these jobs or tasks.  This is something that would be a

 7     matter for the corps and not for the brigade.

 8        Q.   Sir, I understand that you weren't behind this decision-making,

 9     but nonetheless you come to us with great experience.  And my question

10     is:  Do you agree that the decision to abandon the attack was because of

11     the concern that the air bomb's imprecision was so great that they feared

12     their own front lines 500 metres away would be at risk?

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that this has already been

14     answered.  I was not permitted to push the witness.

15             MS. WEST:  I disagree.

16             JUDGE KWON:  While I don't agree with Mr. Karadzic's

17     intervention, but are all these questions necessary in light of timing?

18     Let's move on.

19             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20        Q.   We're going to look at one last document, P1198, on the same

21     subject matter, however a bit closer to Mr. Skrba's area of

22     responsibility.  This is a document May 1995.  It's from

23     Dragomir Milosevic to the Ilidza Infantry Brigade and the Sarajevo

24     Infantry Brigade, and it says on number 1:

25             "The Ilidza Brigade will immediately prepare an aerial bomb

Page 29160

 1     launcher with at least five aerial bombs.  The crews and launcher must be

 2     prepared to open fire at my command at any given moment (launcher roughly

 3     aimed at the airport)."

 4             On Thursday you told us that the corps command was located at

 5     Lukavica; correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And in your statement you have indicated that Lukavica was your

 8     area of responsibility; correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And so this is an air bomb that is going to be located within

11     your area of responsibility, is it not?

12        A.   It's partly my area and partly the area of the Ilidza Brigade.

13     It depends from where you are observing.

14        Q.   Let's focus on the words in parenthesis "the launcher roughly

15     aimed at the airport."  We've talked a bit about specific targeting

16     language.  You would not consider that to be very specific, would you?

17        A.   Aerial bombs have a lot of power.  They're heavier.  They have

18     more projectiles.  If a shell is heavy, some 50 or 70 kilogrammes, and if

19     the aerial bomb is heavy from 3- to 500 kilogrammes, of course it has a

20     lot of lethal power, a lot of destructive power, and of course one cannot

21     be sure to hit the centre.  If you fire a shell and then you can vouch

22     for hitting the target within 50 metres, in the case of an aerial bomb it

23     would be 500 metres because it's much -- it's much bigger projectile.

24        Q.   Okay.  Notwithstanding your enthusiastic denial of knowing

25     anything about aerial bombs, you've just told us that they're heavier,

Page 29161

 1     they have more projectiles, and if you fire a shell and you can vouch for

 2     hitting the target within 50 metres, but in the case of an aerial bomb it

 3     would be 500 metres.  So are you saying that the potential range of area

 4     is 500 metres for an aerial bomb?

 5        A.   I apologise.  If you hit within 50 metres, then you have a good

 6     shot.  I'm not saying it's the precision of the fire is within 50 metres.

 7     If you hit within 50 metres, it's good, then that's that.  If you have a

 8     3- to 500 kilogramme bomb, it's clear, you don't have to see it or hear

 9     it to know that it has more lethal power and that its range or its impact

10     area is greater.  I mean, this is quite clear.  Again I'm saying here, I

11     did see aerial bombs but I never participated in preparing or firing one

12     so I really cannot know the specifics of that.

13        Q.   Thank you, sir.

14             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I don't have any more

15     questions.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

17             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just a few, Your Excellency, and if

19     I manage to put short questions and get short answers it's not going to

20     take that long.

21                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Skrba, do you know approximately how many

23     mosques there were in Sarajevo?  You don't have to give us a precise

24     number?

25        A.   Almost 200, 180 to 200.

Page 29162

 1        Q.   And were they active, were they being used for gathering --

 2             MS. WEST:  Excuse me, Mr. President --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  How does this transpire from the cross-examination,

 4     Mr. Karadzic?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it transpires because there

 6     was a question if they avoided hitting places where people would

 7     assemble.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Were all those mosques active and were they used for people

11     assembling, sometimes even five times a day for the five prescribed

12     prayers?

13        A.   Yes, except for those mosques that were at the front line facing

14     our positions, they were not active; but along the depth of the area,

15     they were active.

16        Q.   So in 1.200 days they would have met at least 6.000 times, those

17     mosques would have been full of people; is that correct?

18        A.   I cannot give you an exact number, but it is a large number

19     because Ramadan was celebrated throughout those four years there.

20        Q.   How many shells did you fire?

21        A.   None.

22        Q.   I asked how many mosques did you hit.  The answer is good but in

23     the question the "mosque" is missing.

24        A.   We did not hit any mosques.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And do you agree that in mid-August 1994 NATO -- in

Page 29163

 1     mid-August 1994 did NATO shell our positions?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, I should have rose more quickly, but

 4     these questions should be open-ended.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Mm-hmm.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I'm trying to save

 7     time.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   You were shown an order here, a preparatory order, to fire at

10     Igman and Saracko [phoen] Polje for the 14th of August.  Are you able to

11     tell us what happened on the 14th of August and were those areas the

12     city -- were those areas considered to be the city centre or not?

13        A.   Igman and the area towards Vojkovici and Hrasnica is not a

14     populated area, it was not an inhabited zone at the time.

15        Q.   Thank you.  And do you remember that General Sefer Halilovic's

16     apartment was in Ciglane?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And the explosion in his balcony, was that ascribed to the Serbs

19     and then the general managed to prove that it was not the Serbs --

20             MS. WEST:  Mr. President.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

22             MS. WEST:  I know Mr. Karadzic is new to redirect, but he

23     understands that the questions cannot be like this.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Do you follow, Mr. Karadzic?

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  Really, I will need a

Page 29164

 1     little bit of time to ...

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Do you know what happened to General Halilovic's apartment?

 4        A.   I didn't know during the war, but after the war I found out from

 5     some programmes.

 6        Q.   Are you able to tell the Chamber briefly what that was?

 7        A.   On two occasions I watched programmes on federal television and

 8     he said that he knew more or less who did that and that he should have

 9     been liquidated in that apartment and not his brother.

10        Q.   Thank you.  The Serbian side, did it place its heavy weapons in

11     civilian areas?

12        A.   No, it did not.

13        Q.   Did the Muslim side do that?

14        A.   Well, yes they did.  There's an example that we discussed around

15     Bjelave, this is a populated area.

16        Q.   Why didn't the Serb side do that?

17        A.   Because they were afraid of retaliation, of causing a reaction

18     and causing more victims at the firing positions.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Did Colonel Mole, you saw his statement, was he part

20     of the permanent crew at Lima 5?

21        A.   I do not remember him.  I would like to meet him and face him,

22     particularly after a statement by him to this effect.

23        Q.   Thank you.  The entrance to the tunnel, is that a legitimate

24     target, the tunnel -- the Dobrinja-Butmir tunnel?

25        A.   It's a legitimate target from my area of responsibility, but we

Page 29165

 1     did not hit that because the tunnel was not occupied.  There were

 2     civilians, soldiers passing there, supplies, fuel, medical supplies, and

 3     I just would like to note that Mr. Alija was never late for any meeting

 4     at all and he would leave Sarajevo.

 5        Q.   Do you recall the tunnel in Velesici, does that have two

 6     entrances?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And the weapons that were in the tunnel, were they able to fire

 9     and did they fire from both of the entrances?

10        A.   Yes, from both.  I said that to the lady as well.

11        Q.   Thank you.  I have no further questions.  Witness, thank you very

12     much for your being here and for your effort.

13        A.   You're welcome.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Unless my colleagues have any questions

15     for you, that concludes your evidence, Mr. Skrba.  On behalf of this

16     Chamber, I'd like to thank you for your coming to The Hague to give it.

17     Now you are free to go.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Please have a safe journey back home.  We'll have a

20     break for half an hour.

21                           [The witness withdrew]

22             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, will we be reconvening in private

23     session for the next witness?

24                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

25             JUDGE KWON:  Since the Chamber has a matter to discuss in closed

Page 29166

 1     session, when we resume at five past 11.00 the Chamber will start in

 2     closed session.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- On resuming at 11.06 a.m.

 6                           [Closed session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 29167











11  Pages 29167-29175 redacted.  Closed session.















Page 29176

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, let's bring in the witness.

24             MR. GAYNOR:  While the witness is coming in, Mr. President, could

25     I request that he be given a warning pursuant to Rule 90(E).

Page 29177

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please take a seat, Mr. Skrba.

 4             Having heard your submission as well as the parties' submission,

 5     the Chamber is not still satisfied that there exists an objectively

 6     grounded risk to your security or welfare or your family members.  The

 7     Chamber finds that concerns you raised are generic, not specifically

 8     related to the fact that you will be testifying in this case, as such

 9     does not reach the level that warrants protective measures requested for.

10     I hope you understand that.

11             Would the witness kindly take the solemn declaration.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

13     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.  Thank you.

14                           WITNESS:  MILOS SKRBA

15                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Skrba.  Please make yourself

17     comfortable.

18             Mr. Skrba, before you start giving evidence I would like to draw

19     your attention to a particular rule at the Tribunal.  Under this rule,

20     Rule 90(E), you may object to answering a question from the Prosecution

21     or the accused or from the Judges if you believe that your answer will

22     incriminate you.  When I say "incriminate," I mean that something you say

23     may amount to an admission of your guilt for a criminal offence or could

24     provide evidence that you have committed an offence.  However, even if

25     you think your answer will incriminate you and you do not wish to answer

Page 29178

 1     the question, the Tribunal still has the discretion to oblige you to

 2     answer the question.  But in such a case the Tribunal will make sure that

 3     your testimony compelled in such a way shall not be used as evidence in

 4     other cases against you for any offence other than false testimony.

 5             Sir, do you understand what I have just told you?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Skrba.

 8             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.

10                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Skrba.

12        A.   Good day.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see 1D6031 in the e-court

14     system, please.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Mr. Skrba, is this the statement that you gave to -- was it read

17     to you in English, or rather, in the Serbian language?  Is this a

18     statement that you gave to the Defence team?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.  You have signed this statement, haven't you?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Does this statement accurately reflect what you said?

23        A.   Yes, it does.

24        Q.   Thank you.  If I put the same questions to you that are contained

25     in the statement today here in the courtroom, would your answers be the

Page 29179

 1     same?

 2        A.   Yes, perhaps the answers I gave would not be in the same order,

 3     but the gist of what I said would be the same.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I would like to

 6     tender this statement into evidence pursuant to Rule 92 ter.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, it will be admitted.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D2334, Your Honours.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I said as part of a package but

10     that hasn't been included.  In other words, does this include the

11     associated documents?

12             JUDGE KWON:  I take it that you're tendering six documents?

13             Any objections, Mr. Gaynor?

14             MR. GAYNOR:  No, Mr. President.

15             JUDGE KWON:  They will all be admitted and given numbers by the

16     Registrar in due course.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             I would now like to read out a short summary of Mr. Skrba's

19     testimony.  I'll read it out in English.

20             [In English] Milos Skrba lived in Pofalici.  The atmosphere there

21     was tense.  Before the war the Green Berets had established a check-point

22     where they controlled passengers and automobiles at the intersection of

23     Drinska Street and Pofalici.  Already during 1991 he saw uniformed

24     Muslims especially in the area of Alipasino Polje.  He was often stopped

25     and controlled by the Green Berets because of which he decided to

Page 29180

 1     relocate with his family to a Serbian-majority area.

 2             In April 1992 he fled to the village of Petrovici near Sarajevo.

 3     After his arrival there, the local population self-organised and went out

 4     on the outskirts of the village in order to defend their houses.  Also in

 5     April 1992 Muslim forces severed the only road linking Petrovici with

 6     Pale in the area of the Alatiste intersection and the Osmice feature, and

 7     in May 1992 they were forced to go out on that road and re-take it

 8     because of frequent attacks of Muslim forces and Green Berets on their

 9     patrols.

10             In the summer 1992 the 2nd Infantry Company of the 2nd Infantry

11     Battalion of the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade was formed.  He assumed

12     the duty of company commander.  This company was primarily responsible

13     for preventing Muslim forces from severing the only road between Lukavica

14     and Pale and for preventing daily threats to civilians, in particular

15     civilian vehicles using this road.  Parts of the 1st Mountain Brigade --

16     probably of the 10th Mountain Brigade of the 1st Corps Army of BH ranged

17     against them committed massacres of civilians in its zone of

18     responsibility.  While on guard duty his unit could often hear the moans

19     and cries of men, women, and children during the night in the vicinity of

20     their positions.  The Muslim units had positions in-depth exclusively in

21     civilian facilities and houses as well as snipers.

22             Milos Skrba's company did not have heavy artillery weapons.  It

23     was a light infantry company.  He never received any written or oral

24     order from the battalion command to open fire on civilian targets, nor

25     would he have done so had such an order ever been issued.  Likewise, he

Page 29181

 1     never ordered orally or in writing that fire be opened on civilian

 2     targets.

 3             Regarding Markale II incident on 28th of August, 1995,

 4     Milos Skrba knows for a fact that there were no mortar positions in the

 5     village of Studenkovici which he has shown on the map 1D08529, and he

 6     showed the approximate place where there was an 92-millimetre mortar in

 7     August 1995.  That is the only place on that road where there was a

 8     mortar position.  He also claims that at the other positions in the

 9     vicinity there were no 120-millimetre-calibre mortars.

10             Regarding the sniping incident in Zagrici Street on 13th of

11     December, 1992, Milos Skrba claims that there were no sharpshooters in

12     his company throughout 1992 as well as in December 1992 or during the

13     entire period of the war.

14             [Interpretation] At this point in time, the Defence doesn't have

15     any questions for the witness.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.

17             Mr. Skrba, as you heard your evidence in this case was admitted

18     in writing in lieu of your oral testimony.  Now you will be

19     cross-examined by the Prosecution team.

20             Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

21             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Before I begin I just

22     note that Mr. Karadzic accidentally read out "92-millimetre mortar."  In

23     his summary and I believe he meant 82-millimetre in August of 1995.

24                           Cross-examination by Mr. Gaynor:

25        Q.   Mr. Skrba, good afternoon.

Page 29182

 1        A.   Good afternoon.

 2        Q.   I will be asking you some questions on behalf of the Prosecution.

 3             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd like the Registrar to call up, please, 1D05827A.

 4        Q.   And, Mr. Skrba, while that's coming up, I want to ask you a few

 5     questions about your evidence regarding the defence of Serbian houses in

 6     the village of Petrovici.  And your statement at paragraph 3 you said

 7     that:

 8             "The local population self-organised and went out on the

 9     outskirts of this Serbian village in order to defend their houses."

10             And you marked on the map the line of defence of Serbian houses.

11     Now, if we could look at the map, please.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Again, that's not been released.

13             MR. GAYNOR:  This is one of the associated exhibits from the

14     Defence.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Did you put A at the end of the exhibit number?

16             MR. GAYNOR:  The Defence put A at the end of the exhibit number,

17     yes.

18             JUDGE KWON:  I think it's now on e-court.

19                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

20             JUDGE KWON:  I was told that the one without A is on e-court.

21             MR. GAYNOR:  Let's work with that one for the moment, please,

22     Mr. Registrar.

23        Q.   Now, Mr. Witness, what's coming up is the first map that you

24     marked with a red line, which you claim relates to the defence -- the

25     line of defence of Serbian houses --

Page 29183

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Could you wait until we have the map.

 2             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, Mr. President.

 3             If we could zoom in on the bottom right corner of this map,

 4     please.  That's perfect.  Thank you.

 5        Q.   Now, I think we can see a straight red line which you marked

 6     in -- on this map.  Is that right, Mr. Skrba?

 7        A.   That's not the map.  This is a different map that relates to a

 8     different case.  There's a map that looks a little different.

 9        Q.   Mr. Skrba, it's correct, isn't it, that you did mark one map with

10     one red line and later you marked another map with a red line in a

11     different location, isn't it?

12        A.   I didn't mark this map with this line.  I don't know who did.

13     This line relates to the Studenkovici village where these mortars were

14     allegedly located.  It has nothing to do with the defence of Petrovici.

15                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

16             JUDGE KWON:  I'm told that - and I'm actually seeing it - the map

17     with number A, shall we upload that.

18             MR. GAYNOR:  Very well.  For the record, this is in fact the map

19     referred to at paragraph 3 of the witness statement which is map 1D8527.

20     And now keeping in mind the location of that red line, if we can look at

21     1D8527A.  Again, Mr. Registrar, if you could focus on the -- that's

22     perfect.  In fact, if we could include the word "Sarajevo" on the --

23     thank you.

24        Q.   Now, Mr. Witness, you can confirm, can you, that this is a map

25     which you marked showing the line of defence of Serbian houses; is that

Page 29184

 1     correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Now on this map the village of Petrovici is not, in fact, marked.

 4     Could you take a pen and approximately identify where it is.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Could you wait until assisted by our usher,

 6     Mr. Skrba.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The main road runs in this

 8     direction Pozarevici.  Petrovici is somewhere here behind Kozarevici.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness is kindly asked to speak up a bit.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's Kozarevici and then Petrovic.

11     That is the street here.  In this area there are three villages:

12     Miljevici, Gojkovici, Kozarevici, and Petrovici.

13             MR. GAYNOR:

14        Q.   Witness, could you just put the letter P next to the location of

15     Petrovici.

16        A.   Well, I don't know exactly because it's covered by this box, this

17     inbox here, but if there is some other map I could use that.  It would be

18     roughly speaking here.

19        Q.   If you could sign and date --

20        A.   This is approximate.  I'm not certain because I'm not sure that

21     this is the actual location.  So I have marked it approximately.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Please sign and date the map.

23        A.   I apologise, it's the 21st, isn't it?

24             JUDGE KWON:  The 22nd I take it.

25             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.  That's correct.

Page 29185

 1             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

 2             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd like to tender that, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, next Prosecution exhibit.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P5937, Your Honours.

 5             MR. GAYNOR:

 6        Q.   Now, could you explain why you changed the position of the red

 7     line between the first map that we saw and the second map that we saw.

 8        A.   Because I didn't know who marked the map.  I didn't and those

 9     weren't the positions, in fact, they were patrols there in May and April

10     2002 --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Says the witness.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- there were no guards, there were

13     patrols because the Territorial Defence was there and the guards were on

14     duty there to prevent the Muslim units from infiltrating the villages of

15     Miljevici and Petrovici because they were -- that was a joint village so

16     it was an area of strategic importance and the desire was to prevent an

17     attack on Miljevici, Petrovici, and Kozarevici and this other village

18     Gojkovici.

19             MR. GAYNOR:

20        Q.   Mr. Witness, do you accept that the red line on your map is not,

21     in fact, on the outskirts of Petrovici?

22        A.   Well, practically it's not far from the village of Petrovici.

23        Q.   Well, we'll be seeing exactly where the village of Petrovici is

24     located a bit later on, Mr. Witness.  I'm going to move on now.  I'd like

25     you to -- you can refer to it if you wish, at paragraph 11 of your

Page 29186

 1     statement you say:

 2             "In my company there were no sharpshooters throughout 1992 as

 3     well as in December 1992 or during the entire period of the war."

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Now, your company was in the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade;

 6     correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   You accept that your company was a subordinate unit of the

 9     1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Do you accept that the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade

12     distributed sniper rifles to its subordinate units?

13        A.   I don't know.  I didn't get anything as the company commander.

14        Q.   Were you aware that the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade also had

15     automatic weapons with scopes, semi-automatic weapons with scopes,

16     passive infrared sights, and other forms of optical equipment?

17        A.   No, I wasn't.

18             MR. GAYNOR:  Can we call up, please, P5930.

19        Q.   The document in front of you, Mr. Skrba, is dated the 29th of

20     October, 1993.  It's from the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade to the

21     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command.  The brigade is informing the command

22     that it's in possession of rifles with optical sights, semi-automatic

23     rifles with optical sights, machine-guns with optical sights, sniper

24     rifles, rifles with passive infrared sights, sniper rifle silencers.  Do

25     you see that?

Page 29187

 1        A.   Yes, I do.

 2        Q.   You see in the sentence below Colonel Stojanovic who signed this

 3     says:

 4             "As we don't have a special sniper unit, we have issued the

 5     sniper rifles to combatants in the subordinated units.

 6             "They are active when the combatants are in position."

 7             Do you see that?

 8        A.   Yes, I do.

 9        Q.   You also see the next sentence where commander Colonel Stojanovic

10     says:

11             "In order to be more effective covering enemy territory with

12     snipers, in front of our forward lines, we require another seven M69,

13     7.9-millimetre sniper rifles ..." and he asks for a further three sniper

14     rifles with infrared sights and silencers.

15             Do you see that?

16        A.   I do.

17        Q.   This suggests, does it not, that the

18     1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade had sniper rifles, it had automatic

19     weapons and semi-automatic weapons with scopes, it had other optical

20     equipment, it distributed that equipment to its subordinate units, and

21     those units used that equipment on their forward lines, doesn't it?

22        A.   I did not receive anything myself and I did not have these

23     weapons that are mentioned in this list ever in my unit.

24        Q.   Nevertheless, you accept the thrust of this document is as I

25     summarised it, do you?

Page 29188

 1        A.   No, I didn't understand exactly what you mean.

 2        Q.   Mr. Witness, I'll move on after this, but is it your position

 3     still that the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade did not have sniper

 4     rifles, did not have automatic weapons with scopes, did not have

 5     semi-automatic weapons with scopes, did not have other optical equipment

 6     which can be used to shoot people accurately from a large long distance?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to object --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would just like to say that I

 9     can't say anything about the brigade.  I was not in authority in the

10     brigade.  I can talk about my company.  If you know what a company is as

11     opposed to a battalion and a brigade, you will know that I can be

12     responsible only for the company that I was in command of.  I can't say

13     anything about the brigade.  Thank you.

14             MR. GAYNOR:  I'll move on, Mr. President.

15        Q.   I'll move now to --

16             JUDGE KWON:  I think, Mr. Karadzic, that resolved your --

17             THE ACCUSED:  Yeah, it's resolved, but I would just direct your

18     attention to the translation; namely, it should be translated:  "In order

19     to be more effective covering enemy's area in front of our lines," not

20     "enemy's territory," but just space to the confrontation line.

21             JUDGE KWON:  We'll take a look.

22             I think we can move on now.  Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

23             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24        Q.   Mr. Skrba, we're moving now to Baba Stijena which is discussed at

25     paragraph 11 of your statement.  Towards the end of your paragraph there

Page 29189

 1     you describe an elderly Muslim man who herded goats at a distance of 80

 2     to a hundred metres from Baba Stijena.  I think we can agree that

 3     Baba Stijena itself affords an excellent view over that part of Sarajevo?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MR. GAYNOR:  Could I ask the Registrar, please, to call up 2 --

 6     65 ter 23861, please.

 7        Q.   Mr. Witness, Mr. Skrba, do you recognise that location?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   What is it?

10        A.   I didn't understand you.

11        Q.   That's Baba Stijena, isn't it?  That's an SRK position at

12     Baba Stijena?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   You can see from the photograph, I think, that it's quite a

15     fortified position, isn't it?

16        A.   Yes, but that's not what it looked like in 1992 and 1993 when I

17     was a company commander.  It looked rather different.  It was not as

18     fortified as you can see it here.

19        Q.   Was it, nevertheless, fortified in 1992 and 1993?

20        A.   Yes, yes, it had to be fortified because there was constant

21     sniper and mortar fire.  That part of the road was constantly under fire.

22     It was under the control of the BH army.  The visibility in this

23     particular part was very good.  It was quite exposed and there were a lot

24     of incidents happening over there.

25        Q.   Did you say that this part of the road, Baba Stijena itself, was

Page 29190

 1     under the control of the BiH army?

 2        A.   No, no, they controlled the road from their positions.

 3        Q.   Baba Stijena was always under SRK control, wasn't it?

 4        A.   Yes, yes.

 5             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd like to tender that photograph, please,

 6     Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P5938, Your Honours.

 9             MR. GAYNOR:

10        Q.   Now, while we're on Baba Stijena you said that BiH -- there was

11     constant sniper and mortar fire on that position.  Did SRK forces at

12     Baba Stijena return mortar fire from Baba Stijena?

13        A.   No, they did not have mortars.  How could they respond?  And you

14     saw the road in the photo.  That was the main road leading from the

15     eastern part of Sarajevo towards Pale, and it was exposed in that part.

16     That's why we had to erect protective fences because people, especially

17     civilians, were often wounded or killed in that part between Baba Stijena

18     and Kuce, the length of that part of the road was about 100 to 150

19     metres.  The rest of the road was not exposed because it was hidden by

20     the woods, by the thick woods, that's where the defence line was.  This

21     part here was rather exposed all the time.

22        Q.   Now, a note to clarify your evidence:  Are you suggesting that if

23     SRK forces at Baba Stijena came under sniper fire from the ABiH side,

24     that they would not return fire; is that your evidence?

25        A.   I'm not saying that.  I'm saying when a car came by, either

Page 29191

 1     civilian or a military vehicle, it was always exposed to either sniper or

 2     mortar or rifle fire.  There was a time --

 3        Q.   Mr. Witness --

 4        A.   -- when no car could drive by without being attacked --

 5        Q.   Mr. Witness, I'm going to have to ask you to concentrate very

 6     carefully on my questions.  Is it your position that if SRK forces at

 7     Baba Stijena came under sniper fire from the ABiH side that they would

 8     not return fire?

 9        A.   When people's lives were threatened, only on those occasions,

10     that's when fire was returned.

11        Q.   Now, Mr. Witness, I want to turn to paragraph 6 of your

12     statement.  You refer to units of a brigade of the ABiH and you say at

13     the end of paragraph 6 that:

14             "These Muslim units also had their positions in-depth exclusively

15     in civilian facilities and houses."

16             You see that?

17        A.   Yes, I do.

18        Q.   How did you gather that information?

19        A.   We saw it ourselves.  Those positions were so close that they

20     could be observed from our locations - our positions were better in

21     tactical terms than theirs - and we either heard or saw it ourselves.

22     There was no military facility anywhere near.  We all lived there.  We

23     were familiar with all the wells, houses, the river.  When I was a kid I

24     used to take that same road with my father to go to Sarajevo.  I went to

25     school every day taking that road.  So we were familiar with all of the

Page 29192

 1     houses and all of the features in the area.

 2        Q.   Would you return fire to those units if they fired at you?

 3        A.   We returned in most cases.  Whenever they attacked or tried a

 4     breakthrough, whenever they were redeployed in order to conquer one part

 5     of our territory, we held one part of road and our task was to defend

 6     that road and the villages in-depth behind our lines.  That was our

 7     objective, an objective we achieved.  It should be known those villages

 8     were ethnically Serbian, purely Serbian villages.  There were no other

 9     ethnicities living there.

10        Q.   Who authorised you to fire at ABiH positions located in civilian

11     facilities and houses?

12        A.   We did not shoot at civilian houses.  We opened fire on their

13     lines which were in our immediate vicinity whenever we were provoked,

14     that is.

15        Q.   Mr. Witness, in your own statement you say that the Muslim units

16     had their positions in-depth exclusively in civilian facilities and

17     houses.  That's at paragraph 6.

18        A.   And that's true.  In-depth 100 or 200 metres, that's the forward

19     line.  And the civilian facilities, the civilian houses, were the

20     positions of their units.

21        Q.   Now, what measures did you take to minimise civilian casualties?

22        A.   Well, we opened fire only when we observed a target.  We didn't

23     open random fire.  We had clear targets.  We made sure that we did not

24     use unnecessary fire.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't understand the end of

Page 29193

 1     the answer.

 2             MR. GAYNOR:

 3        Q.   Mr. Witness, the interpreter didn't get the end of your answer.

 4     Could you repeat the end of your last answer, please.

 5        A.   If we came under attack by the BH army, we retaliated, we

 6     returned fire, in the place where we were provoked.  On no occasion was

 7     the entire company engaged.  We opened selective fire.  We never opened

 8     random fire.  There was no need for that.

 9        Q.   Now, it's your evidence that your company was essentially a small

10     arms company; is that right?

11        A.   Yes.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness said that bullets were

13     expensive and they were in short supply.  Can this be recorded because it

14     was not recorded the first time around.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  CLSS will check it later on.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And also that the platoons that had

17     come under attack would defend themselves, that the defence was not

18     carried out by the entire company.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

20             Yes, Mr. Skrba, could you speak slow -- a bit slower so that the

21     interpreters can follow your answers.

22             Yes, Mr. Gaynor, please continue.

23             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you.

24        Q.   Is it correct that your --

25        A.   Thank you.

Page 29194

 1        Q.   -- your company was using rifles, automatic weapons,

 2     semi-automatic weapons?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   When using those weapons, what steps did you as company commander

 5     take to ensure that your troops could distinguish between civilians and

 6     combatants?

 7        A.   I made sure that fire was opened scarcely on an observed target.

 8     We always emphasized that.

 9        Q.   How did your troops know what they were firing at?

10        A.   They saw them.  Our lines were not far from theirs, and one could

11     observe with the naked eye what trench was fired from, what bunker was

12     fired from.  It was easy to see that.

13        Q.   And as well as that you, no doubt, had optical equipment, such as

14     binoculars, specialised scopes?

15        A.   No, we did not have those because we did not need them.

16        Q.   Your evidence is that your entire company did not have any

17     optical equipment, no binoculars, no scopes?

18        A.   That's my evidence.  We didn't need them.

19        Q.   And your company was, in fact, specialised small arms company?

20        A.   It was not a specialised company.  It was just a regular small

21     arms company.

22        Q.   All right.  We'll move on.

23             MR. GAYNOR:  Can I ask the Registrar for map 1D8529, please.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness said small arms or

25     infantry company.  The interpreter chose to use the word "small arms"

Page 29195

 1     instead of "infantry."  That's on line 25.

 2             MR. GAYNOR:  I'll move on now.

 3             Now, Mr. Registrar, if you could, in fact, focus in on the red

 4     box, please, and indeed that's perfect.  Thank you.

 5        Q.   Now, Mr. Skrba, on this map you've marked an 82-millimetre mortar

 6     position and you said:

 7             "That was the only place on that road where there was a mortar

 8     position."

 9             That's at paragraph 10.  That's correct, isn't it?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Now, I think if we look closely at this map we can see the yellow

12     road at the top which is the Pale road and then a little bit south of

13     your circle -- your red circle we see a white road which appears to be a

14     more minor road.  Is that correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Now, your red circle does not appear to be actually on a road

17     marked on this map.  So could you clarify whether this red circle

18     referred --

19        A.   Well, that is close to the Velesici road where you go up and

20     down.  That's that part a bit enlarged, so it seems that it is not close

21     but it is close to that white road.

22        Q.   So was the 82-millimetre mortar located on a road or on a dirt

23     track or in a field?  Where was it located?

24        A.   I don't know because it was not in my zone of responsibility, but

25     I know that next to the road that it was there because I saw it as I

Page 29196

 1     travelled along the road.  I don't know whose piece that was.  It was not

 2     in my area of responsibility.  That mortar was not in my area of

 3     responsibility.  That zone, that area, belonged to a different unit.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Gaynor, how much longer would you need?  I'm

 5     asking for the --

 6             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, Your Honour, I'm willing to break at any stage.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Then we passed the time to break so

 8     we'll break now.

 9             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Then shall we resume at half past 1.00.

11                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.41 p.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 1.32 p.m.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Gaynor, please continue.

14             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.  And I'll just take this

15     opportunity to note for the record that the still photo of Baba Stijena

16     identified by the witness and admitted as P5938 is a still from a film

17     made by a BBC TV crew which appeared in the BBC Panorama programme, and

18     that episode of Panorama was made by Martin Bell and it's referred to at

19     paragraph 59 of P1996 which is the amalgamated statement of Martin Bell.

20        Q.   Now, Mr. Skrba, I'll continue my questions now.  We were looking

21     at the picture which is on the screen in front of you, and I just want to

22     take you up on the point where you said that you saw the 82-millimetre

23     position as you travelled along the road.  Now, are you referring to the

24     white road to the east of your red circle?

25        A.   This road, this earth road that you see going to the east --

Page 29197

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I assist for the accuracy of

 2     the transcript.  The general said Martin Bell recorded this in 1996 and

 3     it's not in the transcript.

 4             MR. GAYNOR:  The P1996 is the amalgamated statement of

 5     Martin Bell.  I didn't mention the year 1996 as far as I'm aware.

 6        Q.   Now, Mr. Witness, perhaps at this stage I could --

 7             MR. GAYNOR:  Could I ask the court usher to help you with a pen.

 8        Q.   And I would like you to identify the earth road - along which you

 9     travelled - with a pen.

10        A.   [Marks]

11        Q.   Thank you very much.  Fine.  So the roads that you've marked on

12     this map were under SRK control in 1995; is that right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   In fact, they were under SRK control for the duration of the

15     conflict; isn't that correct?

16        A.   Yes, roads in our territory where you could move freely.

17        Q.   And what kinds of vehicles could you move freely along those

18     roads in?

19        A.   Passenger vehicles.

20        Q.   Presumably with specialised military trucks you could drive along

21     those roads that you've marked as well?

22        A.   It was difficult because these are narrow roads from the

23     Austro-Hungarian times and the curves are pretty big.  You can see that

24     for yourself.

25        Q.   I accept that.  Now, if you were to drive a jeep along these

Page 29198

 1     roads rather than a very large military vehicle, it wouldn't pose any

 2     particular difficulty, would it?

 3        A.   A jeep, yes.

 4        Q.   Could I ask you to sign and date that map, please, Mr. Witness.

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6             MR. GAYNOR:  I tender that, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, next Prosecution exhibit.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P5939, Your Honours.

 9             MR. GAYNOR:

10        Q.   Staying with that map, under whose control was the 82-millimetre

11     mortar position that you opened?

12        A.   I don't know.  Not -- not with my companies.  I don't know.

13        Q.   In your statement at paragraph 10 you say:

14             "That is the" -- you're referring here to the red dot marking

15     82-millimetre position.  You say:

16             "That is the only place on that road where there was a mortar

17     position.  I claim that at that or other positions in the vicinity there

18     were no 120-millimetre-calibre mortars."

19             What period of time are you referring to with that statement?

20        A.   The period 1992 to 1993 and then periodically until the end of

21     the war.  I was the company commander, an active company commander, in

22     that company.  So it would be the period 1992/1993, the end of 1992.

23        Q.   So you accept that there may have been 120-millimetre mortars in

24     that general area in 1995?

25        A.   Well, I cannot agree if I don't know.

Page 29199

 1        Q.   Mr. Witness, I'd like to bring up now a map where you describe

 2     the area of responsibility of your company, 1D08530, please.  We see the

 3     red line along the Pale road which marks the front edge of your zone of

 4     responsibility; is that right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Would you be able to take a pen and mark the area of Palez on

 7     this map?

 8        A.   I don't know where Palez is.

 9        Q.   Mr. Witness, you were the --

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   -- you were the company commander, this was your zone of

12     responsibility, and you are claiming that you don't know where the Palez

13     area is; is that correct?

14        A.   Perhaps it had a different name, but I don't really see here

15     where that is.  If there is no marking of some sort, then I don't know.

16        Q.   Mr. Witness, let me clarify.  The area of Palez is not marked on

17     this particular map.  We're going to see it in a minute on a different

18     map.  But I'm asking you if you are claiming that you don't know or are

19     not able to identify where the area of Palez is on this map.  Is that

20     what you're claiming?

21        A.   Perhaps I do know it but under a different name, but like this on

22     this map I don't see that place I don't know.

23        Q.   Under what other name do you know the area Palez?

24        A.   Well, I don't know until you show me which part it is.

25        Q.   Right.

Page 29200

 1             MR. GAYNOR:  I'm going to ask the registrar, please, to call up

 2     65 ter 23919E, please.  Could we turn this by 90 degrees, please, and

 3     zoom in on the centre part of this map, please.  And if you could go a

 4     little further to the south, please, and zoom in, Mr. Registrar.

 5        Q.   Do you see the word "Palez" there, Mr. Witness?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Well, it's clear when we compare the previous map to this map

 8     that Palez is exactly within your zone of responsibility.  Do you agree

 9     with that?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Now, we'll come back to that map a little later, but for the

12     moment did you know that the SRK had 120-millimetre mortars in the Palez

13     area during the year 1995?

14        A.   No, I did not.

15             MR. GAYNOR:  Can we call up, please, 65 ter 23880.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Where do we see Palez on this map -- it has gone

17     already.

18             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, Your Honours, we will be coming back to it

19     later but I can --

20             JUDGE KWON:  It's gone.  If you come back later on --

21             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, I can.

22             JUDGE KWON:  -- that's sufficient.

23             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24             Could we go to the second page in B/C/S, third page in English.

25        Q.   This is a document as I think you can see, Mr. Witness, from the

Page 29201

 1     SRK command dated the 9th of May, 1995, the header refers to "Talas 2,"

 2     which can be translated in English as Wave 2.  Now if we look at

 3     paragraph 3, this is at the bottom of page 3 in English and at the middle

 4     of page 2 in the original, we see a reference at the end of that

 5     paragraph to SRK objectives, including to:

 6             "Place a major part of Stari Grad under fire control with the

 7     objective of ultimate victory."

 8             If we turn to the next page in English staying on the same page

 9     in the original, paragraph 4 begins with the words:

10             "I have decided ..."

11             And then towards the end of the paragraph he refers to:

12             " ... for ultimately crushing the enemy's defensive power and for

13     placing a major part of Stari Grad under fire control ..."

14             Do you see that, Mr. Witness?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   You know where Stari Grad is, don't you?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Stari Grad includes areas such as Bascarsija and the

19     Markale Market, doesn't it?

20        A.   You could say that.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, can we see in the Serbian

22     where that is -- ah, this is paragraph 2.

23             MR. GAYNOR:  Paragraph 2 at the end is a reference to Stari Grad

24     and at paragraph 4 there's a further reference to placing a major part of

25     Stari Grad under fire control.

Page 29202

 1        Q.   Now, if we turn now to the next page in English and the next page

 2     in the original and we look at the end of paragraph 5.1.  I think we need

 3     to go back a page in B/C/S.  The last sentence he says:

 4             "Everything shall be planned out by the deputy chief of artillery

 5     Major Savo Simic."

 6             Mr. Witness, you know Savo Simic, don't you?

 7        A.   [No interpretation]

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter is not sure whether the witness

 9     said "yes" or "no."

10             MR. GAYNOR:

11        Q.   Witness, do you know Savo Simic?

12        A.   No.  No, I don't.

13        Q.   Very well.  We'll carry on.  At the bottom of page 6 in English,

14     paragraph 6 reads:

15             "Forces carrying out combat operations in the Debelo Brdo area

16     are supported by an 82-millimetre MB and a 120-millimetre battery from

17     the sector of Trebevic-Palez."

18             Do you see that?

19        A.   Yes, I do.

20        Q.   MB means mortar platoon; is that correct?

21        A.   No.  MB means "minobacac," mortar, 82-millimetres.

22        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.

23             MR. GAYNOR:  Now if we can turn to page 7 in English and page 5

24     in B/C/S, paragraph 7.1(a), this refers to ammunition for the tasks.

25        Q.   In the middle of the paragraph it says that the 1st Smbr and the

Page 29203

 1     DIO units will be approved for the following for the execution of the

 2     offensive operations in the Debelo Brdo area, and it lists, among others,

 3     100 shells for the 120-millimetre mortar platoon.

 4             Do you see that?

 5        A.   I do.

 6        Q.   So do you accept that according to this document the SRK had

 7     120-millimetre mortars in the Palez area?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we look at the last page so

 9     that we can identify the whole document, whether it's complete and

10     whether it's signed.

11             MR. GAYNOR:  Perhaps we can ask the witness to answer the

12     question first.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             MR. GAYNOR:

15        Q.   Witness, could you answer the question.

16        A.   Well, I cannot entirely answer the question because I don't know.

17     I really didn't see and I did not take part in these kinds of events

18     because my infantry company's responsibility did not lie in Debelo Brdo.

19     We were behind in control under a certain angle.  I don't know whether

20     these are preparatory actions for an operation.  I don't know whether

21     this happened or not.  I mean, this is something that would need to be

22     done at the corps level.

23        Q.   Witness, do you accept that Palez did fall within your area of

24     responsibility?

25        A.   Until 1993, though, because later I'm not sure about it, no.

Page 29204

 1        Q.   Witness, you haven't mentioned anything about that in your

 2     statement, have you?

 3        A.   I cannot say that there was a mortar there because I don't know.

 4     I did not manage to find out in any way if there was a mortar or not in

 5     this place called Palez.

 6             MR. GAYNOR:  Mr. President, I'd like to tender the document that

 7     we've just been discussing.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson --

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, could we please see what this

10     document is; and secondly, the witness did not confirm anything from this

11     document, so I was not allowed to tender documents under the same

12     circumstances.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Gaynor.

14             MR. GAYNOR:  Well, this document is directly relevant to the

15     witness's assertion as to whether the SRK had 120-millimetre mortars in

16     the Palez area in 1995.  He did discuss the document to some extent.  It

17     goes directly to his credibility and it goes directly to the matters --

18     the claims he makes in his statement.  I believe that it does form an

19     integral part of his evidence so far and it is vital for assessing his

20     credibility.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, do you challenge the authenticity of

22     this document?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I'm not sure.  I

24     haven't seen all of it.  I'm not sure about the signature.  And also, I'm

25     not sure whether the operation was carried out or whether it was just

Page 29205

 1     being planned and whether he was there at all.  All in all, all of this

 2     is rather dubious.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  I don't follow you saying so.  You can see the

 4     document on your own with your e-court.  You have all the legal

 5     associates in the courtroom who can see the document.

 6             Just a second.

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, you have more

 9     options with e-court than I do.  I cannot actually look at it myself.  It

10     would -- the page would have to be shown to me.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Could you explain the format of the document,

12     Mr. Gaynor.

13             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE KWON:  A document is attached to the previous -- yes.

15             MR. GAYNOR:  As far as we could tell, the front page which is a

16     5th of May SRK command document, 5th of May, 1995, is not related to this

17     document.  The two are under this -- this 65 ter number, but I don't

18     believe the two documents are related.  And in respect of its

19     authenticity, I note that it does not appear to be signed; however, it

20     appears to certainly be prepared with exactly the same type face as many

21     of the SRK documents that we've already seen and have been admitted in

22     evidence.  I don't believe there's ever been a single SRK document so far

23     in the trial where authenticity has been a question.  And I can certainly

24     provide more information to the Court as to where this document was

25     seized from if necessary.

Page 29206

 1             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Do we not hear everything, Mr. Tieger?

 3             MR. TIEGER:  I just wanted to respond to one assertion and get

 4     some clarification from Mr. Robinson.

 5             Mr. Karadzic suggested that he was not permitted to have such

 6     documents introduced during the course of his case.  I wanted to confirm

 7     that when matters of credibility and impeachment arose and was stated as

 8     such by Mr. Robinson, that I would repeatedly rise and affirm that,

 9     indeed, that was another basis for admission.  And I believe the Defence

10     will confirm that approach during the course of the Prosecution case.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

12             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  It's true that during the

13     Prosecution case for the most part when we had a document that

14     contradicted the testimony -- purported to contradict the testimony of

15     the witness, it was admitted when -- even if the witness couldn't confirm

16     it.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber agrees with Mr. Gaynor and this will be

19     admitted as the next Prosecution exhibit.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P5940, Your Honours.

21             MR. GAYNOR:  I'm obliged, Mr. President.

22             Could we now call up 65 ter 23926, please.  If we could go to the

23     next page in the B/C/S, please.

24        Q.   We see there a signature of Savo Simic, who is -- has the same

25     name as a Savo Simic referred to in the previous document.  You see that,

Page 29207

 1     Mr. Witness?

 2        A.   Yes, I can see it.

 3        Q.   Now in this document we see if we go to the previous page in

 4     B/C/S and the same page in English, under item 1(b) it says:

 5             "Fire support for the 3/1st Smbr and SRK DIO carrying out b/d at

 6     Debelo Brdo and Vranjaca shall be realised using:

 7             "120-millimetre mortar battery (4 artillery pieces) from the

 8     Palez area."

 9             Do you see that?

10        A.   I do.

11        Q.   And do you accept that b/d -- or tell us what "b/d" stands for.

12        A.   Well, I don't know.  I'm not an artillery man, so I don't know

13     what it means.

14             MR. GAYNOR:  Could we go to the next page in B/C/S, please, and

15     onto the next page in English.

16        Q.   Under item 5 it says:

17             "Readiness for action on the 15th of May, 1995, at 0500 hours."

18             Do you see that?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Do you accept, Mr. Skrba, that on the basis of this document

21     signed by Major Savo Simic, it appears that there were 120-millimetre

22     mortar positions, four of them, at the Palez area at the time that this

23     document was drafted.  Do you accept that?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Well, perhaps you could explain to the Chamber why you don't?

Page 29208

 1        A.   The reason is simple.  It is because in my opinion there were no

 2     mortars at the time at Palez.  As for them being prepared for some sort

 3     of action, that's a different matter.  But as I saw those 82-millimetre

 4     mortars in the vicinity, well, they should have been 120-millimetre

 5     mortars.  I don't know whether they brought them in.  I don't believe

 6     that was the case, though.  So in my opinion those 120-millimetre mortars

 7     were not set up there.

 8        Q.   So you -- it's your position, is it, that the assertion that

 9     there were four 120-millimetre mortars in Palez at the time that this

10     document was drafted is incorrect; is that your evidence?

11        A.   Yes.

12             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd like to tender this document for the same

13     reasons as previously advanced, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, next Exhibit P5941.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  That's correct, Your Honours.

16             MR. GAYNOR:

17        Q.   I'd like to move now to paragraph 15 of your statement --

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do apologise.  Line 7 the witness

19     didn't say they should have been, he said that 120-millimetre mortars

20     were not there.  So this is just a problem with the transcript.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.

22             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

23        Q.   I will move on now.  At paragraph 15 of your statement,

24     Mr. Skrba, you say:

25             "Between Petrovici village and the Sarajevo city there were no

Page 29209

 1     artillery weapons or mortars."

 2             Could you clarify what period of time you are referring to?

 3        A.   To the period running from the beginning of the war until the

 4     end.

 5        Q.   Do you accept that the Palez area is, roughly speaking,

 6     approximately between Petrovici village and the city of Sarajevo?

 7        A.   No, it's a little to the right.

 8        Q.   Well, we'll look at a map now so we can clarify that.

 9             MR. GAYNOR:  First of all, could I call up D718.

10        Q.   The map we're about to see, Mr. Skrba, is a VRS map showing

11     confrontation lines and VRS assets around the city of Sarajevo.

12             Mr. Skrba, south of the city of Sarajevo do you see the Cyrillic

13     letters 1.Smbr?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Could you tell us what that abbreviation stands for?

16        A.   I'm not sure but perhaps the 1st Sarajevo Motorised Brigade.

17        Q.   Fair enough.  And while we're on this point, is that brigade

18     sometimes referred to as the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade?

19        A.   I couldn't say for certain.  I don't know.

20        Q.   Do you see an area marked by dotted red lines around the area

21     where the 1st Smbr marking is?  Essentially what I'm asking you is:  Do

22     you see the area of responsibility of the 1st Sarajevo Motorised Brigade?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Perhaps just for the sake of clarity if I could ask the usher to

25     assist you with a pen.  If you could just fairly quickly draw around the

Page 29210

 1     area of responsibility of the 1st Sarajevo Motorised Brigade and then

 2     sign and date this map, please, sir.

 3        A.   I can't mark this because I wasn't in the brigade.  I was a

 4     company member.  I mentioned what the responsibilities of my company

 5     were, but I can't agree with this map because I didn't deal with such

 6     matters and I can't be familiar with what the responsibilities were of

 7     the 1st Sarajevo Motorised Brigade, and that is why I cannot make any

 8     markings on this map and draw the lines designating the areas of

 9     responsibility of the brigade.

10        Q.   Right, well I'll leave it to Their Honours to decide.  We'll look

11     at a more blown-up version.  It certainly appears to any reasonable

12     observer that the red dots appear to be intended to indicate the zone of

13     responsibility of the 1st Smbr.

14             MR. GAYNOR:  Could I call up, please, 65 ter 23919E.  This is a

15     blown-up portion of the map we've just been looking at.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

17             MR. ROBINSON:  I think you know, Mr. President, what I'm going to

18     say, but we would appreciate Mr. Gaynor refraining from comments about

19     what's perfectly obvious, and I think it's perfectly obvious he knows

20     better.  Thank you.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, it's noted.

22             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

23             Thank you, Mr. Robinson.

24             As soon as the map I've just referred to comes in, we'll have a

25     look at the location of the village of Petrovici.

Page 29211

 1             JUDGE KWON:  I was able to see Petrovici if we zoom in on this

 2     map as well.

 3             MR. GAYNOR:  We could use it.  The next one is a higher --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 5             MR. GAYNOR:  -- definition version.

 6             Now, if we could rotate that by 90 degrees, please, and

 7     essentially focus on the bottom 50 per cent of this map.

 8        Q.   Now, there we see at the bottom of the map part of the Cyrillic

 9     letters 1.Smbr, don't we, Mr. Witness?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And above the letter M we see the word "Petrovici," don't we?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   In fact, if we could focus on the word "Petrovici,"

14     Mr. Registrar, I think it's fair to say, Mr. Witness, that we can see a

15     number of black dots which appear to indicate buildings making up the

16     village of Petrovici; isn't that right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Now I'm going to put it to you that that's quite a considerable

19     distance from the first map we saw at the start of your testimony, which

20     you claimed was a line on the edge of the village of Petrovici; isn't

21     that right?

22        A.   Miljevici, Kozarevici, and Petrovici are ethnically pure

23     villages --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the witness's last

25     word.

Page 29212

 1             MR. GAYNOR:

 2        Q.   Could you finish your answer, please, Mr. Witness.  The

 3     interpreter missed the last part of your answer.

 4        A.   I didn't just say that we stopped only in front of the village of

 5     Petrovici, we stopped at the edge of the village.  The first village from

 6     Sarajevo is Miljevici and then you have Kozarevici and then Petrovici, so

 7     we were at the edge of villages that are ethnically pure.  If it's any

 8     clearer to you I'll tell you what the distance is in kilometres between

 9     Petrovici and the lines where we were up to the road for Trebevici.

10        Q.   You were trying to keep those villages ethnically pure; is that

11     right?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is this permissible?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were trying to mount a defence

14     of those villages.  We didn't want to maintain them as ethnically pure

15     villages because they were already ethnically pure Serbian villages.

16             MR. GAYNOR:

17        Q.   All right.  Let's just look back at the map again.  If you move

18     north from Petrovici towards the city of Sarajevo, do you see a large

19     shaded area west of Studenkovici, and in the middle of that large shaded

20     area do you see the Cyrillic letters B-r-A-G?

21        A.   Yes, I can see that.

22        Q.   The abbreviation BrAG stands for brigade artillery groups,

23     doesn't it?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   You see the word "Palez" at the top of the shaded area of the

Page 29213

 1     brigade artillery groups, do you?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And the 82-millimetre mortar that you identified earlier was

 4     located approximately where?  Perhaps we can ask the usher to ask you to

 5     mark the map.

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7        Q.   Could you put 82-millimetre next to that, sign and date this,

 8     please.

 9        A.   [Marks]

10        Q.   So looking at this map, Mr. Witness, and taking into account the

11     documents that we've seen, it's fair to say, isn't it, that in the

12     general area between Petrovici and Sarajevo city the SRK had a

13     considerable presence of mortar and artillery assets, didn't it?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please be assisted.  Could

15     we be told when the map was made, who made it, and does it reflect the

16     actual situation at the time or the situation as it was supposed to be in

17     the future, the situation for which plans had been made.  We can't draw

18     any conclusions on this basis.  If a certain action has been planned and

19     then markings made to indicate the location of weapons, it doesn't mean

20     that this is actually going to happen.  So we have to know what this map

21     actually represents.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Gaynor.

23             MR. GAYNOR:  Mr. President, first of all, the witness's position

24     is that throughout the conflict there were no artillery or mortar assets

25     between Petrovici and the city of Sarajevo.  That's his position.

Page 29214

 1     Second, this is certainly something that the accused can take up in

 2     re-examination if he wishes.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Fair enough.

 4             Mr. Skrba, can you answer the question?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As the ground between Petrovici up

 6     until Miljevici, as far as Miljevici is very steep, it's a mountainous

 7     area, it's very difficult terrain.  The villages here, Petrovici, for

 8     example, and Tilava are separated by a hill at Palez that the gentleman

 9     has mentioned.  It's on a hill, it's on the slopes of Trebevica.  This

10     part from Petrovici to Sarajevo, the areas we moved through, in fact, is

11     a road in Petrovici, Kozarevici, Stanovici, Miljevici, there were no

12     artillery weapons nor in the area of responsibility of my company.  As

13     for the other areas, I don't know.  This is a very detailed map and I

14     would be grateful if you could not continue putting questions to me about

15     the artillery resources because I'm not an artillery man.  If you have

16     any questions about infantry weapons, I'll answer those questions.  But

17     you will have other witnesses who will be in a position to answer your

18     questions about the artillery and mortars.  There is really nothing that

19     I could tell you with any certainty about such matters.

20             MR. GAYNOR:  Mr. President, first of all I'd like to tender the

21     map marked by the witness.  He seems to have put some extra markings on

22     it, but I don't think they affect the location of the 82-millimetre

23     mortar position he marked earlier.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Did he put the date of this on this?

25             MR. GAYNOR:

Page 29215

 1        Q.   Could you put the date --

 2             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3        Q.   -- it's the 22nd of October, Witness.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Could this be the next Prosecution exhibit.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P5942, Your Honours.

 6             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you.

 7        Q.   Mr. Skrba my final question is that on the basis of your answers,

 8     do you accept that the SRK may have had 120-millimetre mortar positions

 9     in the area south of Sarajevo in August 1995 that you might not have been

10     aware of?

11        A.   Just one clarification, please.  When you say to the "south of

12     Sarajevo," what area are you referring to?  Perhaps you could show me on

13     a map and then I could answer that question with greater accuracy.

14        Q.   You can answer it with whatever modifications you wish.  If you

15     like, do you accept that there were areas within the area of operation of

16     the 1st Smbr in August 1995 which might have contained 120-millimetre

17     mortar positions that you were unaware of?

18        A.   I don't know anything about that.  I wouldn't want to comment.  I

19     wouldn't want to answer that question because I don't know anything about

20     it.

21        Q.   So you accept the possibility that you were not aware of all of

22     the 120-millimetre mortar positions of the SRK in the area of

23     responsibility of the 1st Smbr in August 1995; is that right?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's not what the witness said.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I wasn't familiar with

Page 29216

 1     matters that concern the artillery or with mortars, so I don't know where

 2     they were positioned or who manned them.

 3             MR. GAYNOR:  Mr. President, I have no further questions.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Could the Chamber move into private session briefly.

 6                           [Private session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 29217

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21                           [Open session]

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

23             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, Mr. President.  I wanted to follow-up on one

24     point concerning P5940 which is a document Mr. Karadzic raised a concern

25     that he did not see a stamp or a signature at the end of the document.

Page 29218

 1     Mr. Reid has kindly looked into the matter and we do have the final page,

 2     which for some reason was not in e-court, which bears the ERN 05292954.

 3     It contains the signature and stamp of Major-General Dragomir Milosevic,

 4     and I'm happy to provide a hard copy of the final page to Your Honours

 5     and to the Defence right now.  And we will have the final page translated

 6     and uploaded to e-court as soon as we can.  And we understand that the

 7     final page will form part of P5940.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Would you like to eliminate the first page of that

 9     document?

10             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, we'll do that as well, Your Honour.  Good

11     point.  We'll take away the first document as well.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE KWON:  That will be done.  Thank you, Mr. Gaynor.

13             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just a few questions.  I think we

15     will be done very quickly, Your Excellency.

16                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Skrba, in paragraph 10 of your statement you

18     stated that you had relatives who resided in Studenkovici and that you

19     often visited them and that you did not see mortar positions in the

20     vicinity of Studenkovici village, i.e., on that axis.  I'm talking about

21     120-millimetre mortars.  Does this also refer to August 1995?

22        A.   Yes.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up P5940.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  May it be noted that there is a lot of

25     background noise in the courtroom and it's very hard to hear either the

Page 29219

 1     accused or the witness.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   While we are waiting for the document you were talking about

 4     preparatory orders.  When it comes to preparatory orders, is every one of

 5     them implemented?

 6        A.   No.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go to the following page,

 8     please.  The next one, please.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Under 5 does it say the Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade will continue

11     offensive activities on the ring facing Treskavica; is that correct?

12        A.   Yes, I can see that.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go to the following page

14     where it says "combat-readiness."  I apologise, it says combat-readiness

15     for the attack on the 15th of May.  This is the last sentence in the

16     first paragraph on the very top of the page.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go to the paragraph that

20     refers to Debelo Brdo which is perhaps either at the bottom of this page

21     or on the following page.  The following page, please.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Does this document speak about something that happened or is it

24     also a preparatory order for some upcoming actions?

25        A.   In my view -- I'm not sure.  However, in my view this is an order

Page 29220

 1     for preparations, for some sort of preparations, I don't know of what

 2     kind, whether it's preparations for defence or for something else.  I

 3     don't know what this is all about.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  When it comes to the planning of such operations

 5     where additional units are planned, are additional assets also planned,

 6     those that do not normally exist in the area; however, if this operation

 7     is carried out they will be necessary?

 8        A.   As far as I know, the answer is yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber what is Debelo Brdo?

10     Is that a civilian settlement or is it just a bare mountaintop or a slope

11     on Mount Trebevic?

12        A.   As the name speaks for itself, Golo Brdo is a bare hill slope.

13        Q.   There are no civilian settlements there, are there?

14             MR. GAYNOR:  Objection.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Almost none, perhaps a few houses

16     along the edge of the hilltop and that's where the positions of the units

17     were.

18             MR. GAYNOR:  Objection.  I've only risen now, but I wish to

19     remind Mr. Karadzic to refrain from making leading questions.  He can't

20     pretend he doesn't know the rule by now.  He must refrain from leading

21     questions in re-examination.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Gaynor.

23             Are you done, Mr. Karadzic?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just one more question.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 29221

 1        Q.   Did we occupy Debelo Brdo?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Witness.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions for the

 5     witness, Your Excellencies.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Well, Mr. Skrba, that concludes your evidence and on

 7     behalf of the Tribunal I'd like to thank you to testify in this case, and

 8     now you are free to go.  Please have a safe journey back home.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

10             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber will adjourn for the day, not deducting

11     the time from the Defence case.

12             We'll continue tomorrow morning at 9.00.

13             There are a couple of things, yes.  Excuse me.

14             Mr. Robinson, the Chamber has received two filings, a revised

15     notification with respect to two witnesses whose request for protective

16     measures have been denied.  What's the point of maintaining the

17     pseudonyms in the filings?  Probably you need to re-file them.

18             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, I did that because it was

19     unclear until this morning whether those witnesses would have the

20     opportunity to address the Court, but now that you've made it clear we

21     can file it publicly.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

23             There's one further matter which is today the accused filed a

24     request for leave to reply a motion for videolink and consideration of

25     protective measures for Witness KW-533.  Given the limited scope of the

Page 29222

 1     proposed reply, the Chamber will grant the request pursuant to

 2     Rule 126 bis of the Rules and orders that the accused file his reply no

 3     later than Tuesday, 23rd of October, 2012.

 4             One more thing, shall we go into private session, but before that

 5     we can excuse the -- the witness can be excused.

 6             Thank you, Mr. Skrba.

 7                           [The witness withdrew]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Are we in private session?  Yes, shall we --

 9                           [Private session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24                           [Open session]

25             JUDGE KWON:  The hearing is now adjourned.

Page 29223

 1                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.38 p.m.,

 2                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 23rd day of

 3                           October, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.