1 Thursday, 29 November 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 11.03 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone.
7 Would the witness take the solemn declaration, please.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm saying that I will speak the
9 truth and the truth.
10 WITNESS: ANGELINA PIKULIC
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, ma'am.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
14 JUDGE KWON: Please make yourself comfortable.
15 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Excellencies.
17 Good morning to all.
18 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
19 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Madam. Could I kindly ask you to
20 tell us what your name is, and you can also tell us where and when you
21 were born.
22 A. I am Angelina Pikulic. I was born in Podlugovi. I was born in
23 Podlugovi on the 28th of April, that's when I was born. I was born in
25 Q. Thank you. Podlugovi is about 15 or 20 kilometres away from
2 A. I know that. I was born there.
3 Q. Thank you. I know that you know, but I wanted the participants
4 in these proceedings to know that you are from the area. Where did you
5 live before the war?
6 A. I lived in Pofalici close to the tobacco factory. Umska [phoen],
7 that was the name of the street.
8 Q. Thank you. Where did you work? Did you have a job before the
10 A. Yes, in the government, the Executive Council. I worked there as
11 a cleaner.
12 Q. Could I kindly ask you to pause before you answer so that this
13 can be interpreted?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You said the Executive Council. Did you work in the Presidency
16 as well?
17 A. Yes, in the Presidency too at Milenka Renovica's.
18 Q. Thank you. Did you work after the elections in 1990 and did you
19 know any of the office-holders?
20 A. In 1990? Yes, I knew our people who worked at the
21 Executive Council. As for the others, I didn't.
22 Q. Thank you. Until when did you work at the Executive Council?
23 A. Until 1979. I got a disability pension because I had an accident
24 on the job. I broke my spine. I had an operation.
25 Q. Thank you. When the war broke out, did you remain in Sarajevo in
1 the area under Muslim control, or rather, where were you when the war
2 broke out and how long were you there?
3 A. In 1992 and 1991 -- well, that's it, 1991 and 1992. And then war
4 broke out. They were preparing in 1991. And then they started in 1992,
5 in April. My husband was out there in hospital. I went to see him at
6 the hospital twice and they put these things, whatever they're called.
7 There was that military police of theirs. And I couldn't get into the
8 hospital to see my husband until I showed my ID.
9 Q. Thank you. What happened in 1993? Did you visit the Presidency
10 building and how come that happened?
11 A. Well, I went to look for food.
12 Q. Did you know someone at the Presidency and is that why you went
13 to the Presidency?
14 A. Well, yes, I did and these people were not there at all. I was
15 just looking for this man and they didn't answer and I was near the
16 reception desk, where the reception desk is at this Executive Council of
17 ours. So I stood there and I heard this screaming in this one room and
18 in this room -- I mean, was it these Serbs of ours? And I just heard
19 this screaming and this man opened the door and I just saw this man
20 naked, covered in blood.
21 Q. Can you tell us exactly what it was that you saw?
22 A. I saw this man's -- I heard this screaming, actually, and then
23 this soldier opened the door and then one of them was naked and then the
24 other one was covered with this green thing, whatever you call it, like a
25 cloth. I don't know.
1 Q. Why was the one screaming and the other one naked?
2 A. I don't know. As soon as I saw that, I started running away
3 towards the mosque. You know where that is, don't you? You know where
4 the Presidency is. You know where the main entrance is, and then it goes
5 towards the mosque, you know; and then by the military hospital and then
6 I went to my home.
7 Q. Thank you. Were they alive?
8 A. I don't know. I don't know whether they were alive.
9 Q. Thank you. Were you arrested or detained while you were --
10 A. In Pofalici. They made me go to Velesici.
11 Q. So you were arrested. And then you were kept where?
12 A. In Velesici, closer to the station up there, the railway station.
13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, in light of the ruling the Chamber has
14 made in its decision, I would like you to move on to your next topic.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, it's linked to
16 what the lady saw there. That is of relevance to us.
17 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Please continue.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It has to do with paragraph 10, the
19 one that you have admitted.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. So what was it that you saw there while you were detained in
22 Velesici? What did you hear?
23 A. My husband, who was sick, was there. He was released from
24 hospital. They let him go on the 15th of April from Gezero [phoen]. Do
25 you know what that is? It's that -- he was released from hospital
1 because he had this thing called gangrene.
2 Q. Thank you. What did you see or what did you hear as far as
3 military affairs are concerned in Velesici? Did you see something, did
4 you hear something?
5 A. Well, they immediately took us - my husband and myself - they
6 took us to this room to question both of us. I saw that there were quite
7 a few soldiers there. I don't know. I don't know. I saw all of that in
8 Velesici. They were questioning my husband. They were asking him
9 something, and I was sitting there in this other chair and he was talking
10 to them and then this soldier got up and slapped him on the face twice.
11 Q. Whose soldiers were they?
12 A. Alija's, not mine.
13 Q. Thank you. Did you hear some shooting or something from there?
14 A. Well, I did hear something, but of course we didn't dare go out,
15 I mean out of that house where I was.
16 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber what it was that you heard and
17 what it was that was happening near that building?
18 A. Well, these soldiers were there and the people who were there
19 too, Serbs. There were Serbs there in Velesici.
20 Q. Did you hear any kind of gun-fire?
21 A. Well, yes, I did hear but we didn't dare go out. I did not dare
22 go out.
23 Q. What kind of weapons did you hear firing out there?
24 A. I don't know. Something sort of stronger. Some kind of strong
25 shooting, strong.
1 Q. Stronger than a rifle?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you. Why did they arrest you?
4 A. Because I stayed in Pofalici, because there was this big attack.
5 They attacked all of Pofalici from the tobacco factory and from the side
6 of Velesici, Pofalici, Buca Potok, and Um. Do you know where the relay
7 is up there? That's where it started.
8 Q. Thank you. Who attacked and when did this happen?
9 A. The 16th of May, May.
10 Q. Who attacked?
11 A. Well, this army, Alija's army. I mean, I could not recognise
12 them. They weren't our people. I mean -- and there were some people who
13 were speaking some kind of foreign language. I couldn't understand who
14 they were and what they were and ...
15 Q. Thank you. Were there any Serb soldiers in Pofalici?
16 A. No. It was only Serb people from the city of Sarajevo,
17 Cengic Villa, Pofalici, Marin Dvor, wherever Serbs were, they were
18 fleeing through Zuc. They were escaping close to my house it was -- I
19 mean, they were running in their slippers and they just had their little
21 Q. You didn't manage to --
22 A. My husband's relative and another lady relative and then there
23 was this other woman who was a Muslim, a relative also, who was married
24 to his son, and she stayed in my house. And then when they barged in and
25 then she said, "Don't you go out, I will go out." And she walked out
1 with her 2-month-old baby like this and she said, "What do you want from
2 me?" We were in my basement in my house. There were 15 of us in my
4 Q. Who were these 15 people who sought shelter there; right?
5 A. Well, these people from Velesici who fled to my house. They're
6 all from Velesici. They fled to my house. I just know my brother-in-law
7 and that daughter-in-law of his and then their neighbours, I mean, they
8 were all in my house.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Iodice.
10 MS. IODICE: Your Honour, I'm afraid we're moving back to a topic
11 that was excluded by the order of the Trial Chamber.
12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
13 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I would like to
15 establish whether this was a civilian settlement and whether there was a
16 military presence there and whether there were any military installations
17 there, military facilities, whether the witness could see something or
18 hear something. We've heard about Velesici and now we're going to hear
19 about Pofalici.
20 JUDGE KWON: I don't understand the last sentence of your
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We heard that in Velesici there was
23 a military presence and that there were heavy calibres firing from
24 Velesici. Now I'd like to ask what was in Pofalici near her house.
25 Obviously now we heard that she was saved by a Muslim lady who went out
1 with her child and prevented them --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]
3 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear what the witness
4 said now.
5 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Without leading the witness, please put
6 the question to the witness.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Did you see some army in Pofalici around your house?
10 A. Well, yes, I did. That time when they attacked they were all
11 around the house and up there, and then my husband when this first attack
12 took place, he escaped to the garage, and I stayed in the house with the
13 relatives that I told you about just now. And then a soldier came to me
14 and said, "You come with me." And I went along, above my house. There
15 was this meadow up there, and he said, "Do you know these people who were
16 killed there?" One man had his arm cut off and he said, "Gina, help me,
17 save me." I couldn't even look and I felt sick and I turned my face away
18 from him and went to the house. Do you want me to tell you who all the
19 people were who got killed there?
20 Q. For the time being we're not going to deal with that, but it's a
21 good thing that you told us that. Tell me, were there also some weapons,
22 artillery pieces, or armoured vehicles there? What kind of military
23 things could you see around your house?
24 A. Around my house I saw them walking towards houses with rifles,
25 and they were torching only Serb houses in Pofalici.
1 Q. Thank you. What was in your garage?
2 A. The police was in my garage.
3 Q. What police was that?
4 A. Alija's police.
5 Q. Thank you. Was there any shooting coming from the garage?
6 A. Well, they opened fire and they wouldn't let me go out, and I was
7 practically a hostage in my own home. I didn't dare go out.
8 Q. Thank you. Do you have a vacation home?
9 A. Yes, I did. It was beyond Hum where you could go. There was
10 this street going to Kobilja Glava, that's where I had the vacation home.
11 I headed there with a friend of mine and another old woman who also
12 wanted to see her own weekend or vacation home. And when we set off
13 there we saw a head on a pike, and there was no body. We took a plastic
14 bag and buried that head near Jovo Jovic's at Tresnija.
15 Q. Thank you. Did you see any military things, any vehicles or
16 weapons, near your vacation home?
17 A. Well, I did see some weapons, but I don't know whose it was. I
18 just saw weapons a bit beyond my vacation home. It was near Hum.
19 Q. Thank you. What did it look like?
20 A. Well, it was amazing. I mean, it was weird so we returned right
21 away, this woman, this lady, she helped me, she was a Catholic. And she
22 said to me, "Come on, let's keep on moving, let's see Boza's house too."
23 Her house, Boza's house had been torched, so was mine, and then we went
24 back. When I came home -- when we arrived home we entered -- we went
25 inside. There was an elderly woman with us, 93 years old, Pava Kadic,
1 and all these people who were there, they were elderly. There were 13
2 elderly people in my home and I was the 14th. They -- they had brought
3 them from this juvenile detention facility in Pofalici.
4 Q. What was there at this juvenile facility?
5 A. Well, it was a juvenile detention facility for young people, but
6 all these elderly people they were detained there, all these people who
7 were in my home had been detained there.
8 Q. Thank you. Now, there was also a youth centre in Pofalici,
9 wasn't there?
10 A. Well, yes. Where IFOR was, some 10 metres away from my home,
11 they were there. They distributed food. One day I got some food, but
12 the following day I didn't. And they told me when I headed there for the
13 second time with a pan, a pot, to get some food, they said to me, "No,
14 you cannot get anything, you are not entitled to it." So I went back
15 home. We had nothing to eat. We just struggled to survive. I had some
16 wheat, or rather, some cattle fodder that I tried to use to bake bread,
17 and that's what we ate.
18 Q. Thank you. Now in lines 5 and 6 this was not my question. In
19 English it sounds as a leading question, whereas my question was an
20 open-ended question.
21 Now, did you see any high officials from Bosnia and Herzegovina
22 in your area?
23 A. Yes, I saw Alija outside my door and he just said to his army,
24 "Do not mention how many people you've killed."
25 Q. Which Alija are you referring to?
1 A. Well, Alija Izetbegovic, he was there.
2 Q. Thank you. I see that this Catholic woman helped you?
3 A. She was the one who helped me most.
4 Q. Please pause before you start answering.
5 Now, were there also such cases, such instances, where the
6 Muslims would help, that you lived together well and you helped each
7 other out?
8 A. Yes, that's true. There were Muslims that I knew who helped me.
9 That's the truth. I cannot not say that, not confirm that. They helped
10 me. They brought some sugar and oil. Ramiz and his son defended us.
11 Now, he was killed and when he saw who had killed my son he came from my
12 back garden and he was calling me, "Gina, Gina," although my real name is
13 Angelina, he said, "Gina, Gina, my son was not killed by Chetniks, but
14 rather by Ustashas." This was Ramiz.
15 Q. Thank you. Now, what was the majority population in Pofalici?
16 A. Serb.
17 Q. Thank you. Did you understand the fact that Ramiz's son was
18 killed, that he was killed because he helped Serbs?
19 A. Well, yes, that's what his father said. That's not what I said.
20 He came and said that.
21 MS. IODICE: Objection. We're again getting away from the topics
22 discussed in the statement.
23 JUDGE KWON: Let the evidence flow for some time.
24 I take it that you are coming to an end, Mr. Karadzic?
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Excellency. Just one last
2 Could we now have P9573, page 82 in e-court -- my apologies
3 793 -- 973, P973, not 5. P, Prosecution exhibit, yes. Could we see page
4 82, please. Page 82 of this document, not the e-court page. In other
5 words, three pages further. Thank you. This is good.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Mrs. Pikulic, I will read out to you now what an expert said here
8 before this Court while testifying and then I will put a question to you.
9 I will read this in English, unfortunately, but you will get the
10 interpretation. Towards the top of the page, line 1.
11 [In English] "Karadzic wrote in an open letter to UN
12 Secretary-General Boutros Boutros-Ghali 'between 40.000 to 50.000 Serbs
13 are held as ethnic hostages and the constant daily attacks on Serbian
14 municipalities, Ilidza, Lukavica, Ilijas, Vogosca take place.'"
15 [Interpretation] Did you hear this interpreted that I read, that
16 in Sarajevo there were 40.000 to 50.000 Serbs who were ethnic hostages,
17 which meant that they were not allowed to leave their homes or move
18 around freely and cross over to the Serb territory, and is that true as
19 far as you know?
20 MS. IODICE: [Overlapping speakers]
21 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, how is she in a position to comment
22 upon an expert report? That's already in our evidence. I don't see the
23 point of putting that question to this witness, Mr. Karadzic.
24 MR. ROBINSON: Well, Mr. President, I think the point is that in
25 paragraph 14 of the indictment under (c)(i) in particular, Dr. Karadzic
1 is charged with disseminating propaganda to -- false propaganda intended
2 to engender fear and hatred of Bosnian Muslims or Croats by Bosnian
3 Serbs, including that the Serbs were in danger of oppression including
4 genocide, among other things. So Mr. Donia testified that among the
5 propaganda that Dr. Karadzic was promulgating was the fact that --
6 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
7 Madam Pikulic, do you understand English?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
9 JUDGE KWON: Could you kindly -- could you kindly put down your
10 headphones for some time. Thank you.
11 Yes, Mr. Robinson, please continue.
12 MR. ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. President. So Dr. Donia testified
13 that among the propaganda that was made by Dr. Karadzic was that Serbs
14 were being held as ethnic hostages in Sarajevo. And so Dr. Karadzic
15 would like to ask this witness who was in Sarajevo at the time whether or
16 not what he said was true or whether he was merely stating false
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
19 Yes, Ms. Iodice, I remember you were on your feet. Would you
20 like to respond?
21 MS. IODICE: Thank you, Your Honour. First of all, this is again
22 a topic that the Trial Chamber excluded already; and second, I don't see
23 how this witness can confirm or deny such a broad statement.
24 JUDGE KWON: Any specific response to Mr. Robinson's point?
25 MS. IODICE: Yes, Your Honour, that this -- there's no notice
1 that this witness would testify on this issue and the issues that this
2 witness is supposed to testify have been identified by the Trial Chamber.
3 JUDGE KWON: So is it your point that the accused is not entitled
4 to put other relevant questions except for what is contained in her
5 previous statement, Ms. Iodice?
6 MS. IODICE: That was my understanding from the Trial Chamber's
7 order, that he was entitled to put questions regarding military targets
8 in Pofalici and Velesici.
9 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
10 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, two things. Number one, we did
11 give notice to the Prosecution yesterday. I sent them an e-mail telling
12 them that we would be using the specific exhibit 973, so they had notice
13 of it. And secondly --
14 JUDGE KWON: 973 is a very voluminous --
15 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, it is.
16 JUDGE KWON: -- document.
17 MR. ROBINSON: Yes it is. And secondly, we understood that once
18 you've converted this witness into a viva voce witness there was
19 limitations of what was excluded but not necessarily what topics were to
20 be included in her testimony.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber will allow the question.
23 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mrs. Pikulic, a few moments ago in one of your answers you said
1 that you were not allowed to leave your home and that you were a hostage
2 in our own house. Now I've just read out to you that I wrote to the
3 general secretary of the UN that there were 40.000 to 50.000 Serbs in
4 Sarajevo who were held hostage who were not free. Now, according to what
5 you know, were there and how many of them any Serbs in Sarajevo and were
6 they free to move around or leave Sarajevo?
7 A. Well, I first asked them to allow me to leave with my husband
8 because my husband had been transferred to Kasindol where the hospital
9 was. So I asked them to let me go with him but they wouldn't let me, and
10 I remained with these old people and in 1993 he died.
11 Q. Do you know anything else about any other Serbs?
12 A. Well, there were our Serbs who weren't allowed to -- they
13 couldn't leave or go out anywhere unless they allowed them. When they
14 said -- I wasn't even allowed to go fetch some water until they said you
15 can go and fetch water.
16 Q. Thank you. Now, what I said here, these things that I said, was
17 that propaganda? Were those lies? Or rather, can you tell me what kind
18 of position were they in and whether what I was saying was an
20 A. No, no --
21 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, that's not a proper question for this
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Were you allowed to attend the funeral?
1 A. No. I begged them to let me go. I didn't even know the date
2 when he died. I was just informed. I received a notice from the
3 Red Cross. They said, "Your husband had died." They wouldn't let me go
4 to Saravica [phoen]. This was at Grbavica. My husband was at his
5 sister's at Grbavica. So he was buried by -- only in the presence of my
6 sister and her sister and --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the last part of her
8 answer, please.
9 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Pikulic, could you repeated your last part of
10 your answer.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What happened? Well, I said what I
12 knew, just what I said a moment ago, that I wasn't allowed to attend my
13 husband's funeral. The Red Cross came. They informed me that my husband
14 had passed away. They didn't let me go. His sister buried him there and
15 it was only in 1994, on the 3rd of July, that I was able to get out.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Thank you. But you said something about Grbavica, that someone
18 had been killed by a sniper?
19 A. Yes, this was my brother-in-law, my sister's husband. He was
20 killed by a sniper.
21 Q. Whose sniper? Was that ever determined?
22 A. Well, they said it wasn't from the Serb side. It was from
23 Alija's side. If you know Grbavica, the main road leading to Grbavica,
24 this is where he was crossing going to the market and that's where he was
25 hit by a sniper.
1 Q. Was he a soldier or a civilian?
2 A. He was a civilian. He was a retiree.
3 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Pikulic. I have no further questions.
4 A. Never mind. Very well.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Iodice.
6 Cross-examination by Ms. Iodice:
7 Q. Mrs. Pikulic?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You don't have any military education; correct?
10 A. No, I don't. No, none of that.
11 Q. And when you -- you said today that you couldn't leave your house
12 in Pofalici; correct?
13 A. Yes, I could not leave. I wasn't allowed to. They didn't let
15 Q. And you -- while you were in your house in Pofalici you went to
16 the Presidency building; correct?
17 A. Yes, I went to the Presidency building because that's where I
18 used to work. I thought I will find my colleagues there and I went
19 looking for food. We didn't have any food.
20 Q. And so you were allowed to go to the Presidency building?
21 A. Well, yes. I asked them to let me go and they said, "Why do you
22 want to go there?" And I said, "Well, I want to go to look for some
23 food. I know those people because I used to work for them."
24 Q. And in the Presidency building you saw -- you say you saw two men
25 and you didn't recognise any of them; right?
1 A. No, I didn't. How could I? When I saw someone screaming there
2 and then this guy was opening the door and then I saw this one who was
3 covered and the other one was naked. When I saw that, I just fled and I
4 started running towards the mosque and the hospital towards my house.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It didn't make it into the
6 transcript: When I saw that suffering.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, I felt sick.
8 MS. IODICE:
9 Q. So you don't know what their ethnicity was or what had happened
10 to them; correct?
11 A. No. No, I didn't. I didn't know anything. I just saw that and
12 I fled that place. I ran towards the mosque and this is the way to my
13 home in the direction of the military hospital. So I walked all the way
14 to Pofalici because there was no transportation. I had a lot of friends.
15 Everyone knew me. I can't really say anything about who is what. There
16 were good people and there were also others who were God forbid.
17 Q. Thank you. And you said today that while you were in Pofalici
18 you also went to see your house at -- your weekend house at Hum, correct,
19 in Kobilja Glava; is that right?
20 A. Yes, yes.
21 Q. Was Pofalici a residential area?
22 A. Pofalici? What do you mean was it ...?
23 Q. There were houses. People lived there; correct? There were many
25 A. Well, these were all houses where people lived, our Serb people
1 and Muslim people and Catholic people, that's what it was. There were
2 Serbs and Catholics and Muslims, Bosniaks. But the majority in Pofalici
3 were Serbian.
4 Q. And Velesici was also a residential area - right? - with many
5 apartment buildings and houses; correct?
6 A. Well, there too there were Serbs --
7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the rest.
8 MS. IODICE:
9 Q. Yes, but my question was simply whether there were apartment
10 buildings and houses, only about whether it's a residential area. Yes or
12 A. In Velesici there were buildings, there were houses, there were
13 Serb people, Catholic people, Bosniaks, Muslims. It was all mixed.
14 There were people of all faiths.
15 Q. Thank you. And when you say that during your time in Velesici
16 that was about ten days that you spent there, you heard explosion,
17 noises. You didn't see what was happening; correct? You just heard the
19 A. I only heard the noises and firing. We weren't -- they didn't
20 let us leave our houses where we were.
21 MS. IODICE: If you can bear with me for a second, Your Honour.
22 [Prosecution counsel confer]
23 MS. IODICE:
24 Q. Mrs. Pikulic in -- and this is page 10, line 20 of the transcript
25 today, you said that you saw Alija Izetbegovic outside your house and he
1 mentioned --
2 A. Yes, I did. I saw Alija right in front of my house and he said,
3 "Don't say how many you've killed." He said that at a place that was no
4 more than 2 metres away from my house.
5 Q. And that's something that you would have remembered, right? It's
6 something very important that you could not forget; right?
7 A. I'll never forget that, never. It's in my head. I will always
8 remember that.
9 Q. Now if we can call up 1D6037. You gave a statement in October
10 1995 and you agree with me that your recollection of the events at that
11 time was much better than it is today; right?
12 A. I gave a statement in 1995.
13 Q. And that's the statement that you can see in front of you right
14 now. You should be able to see it?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. In 1995 your memory of the events was fresher and was much better
17 than it is today; is that right?
18 A. Well, yes. Everything I've said I'm saying today as well. What
19 I said in 1995 is what I'm saying today. I am saying what it was that I
20 saw. I cannot talk at all about what I have not seen.
21 Q. Right. But in this statement you did not mention this very
22 important detail of Alija Izetbegovic telling to someone not to mention
23 how many people they've killed, nowhere in this statement can we find any
24 mention of that detail, that you said you will never forget.
25 A. I did see Mr. Izetbegovic in front of my door and that's what he
1 said. I'll never forget that. That will remain in my head for as long
2 as I live.
3 [Prosecution counsel confer]
4 MS. IODICE:
5 Q. Mrs. Pikulic, I understand that you're now saying that you saw
6 Mr. Izetbegovic, but you do understand that you never mentioned this
7 detail before? This very important detail, you never mentioned it to
8 anyone before - right? - when you were interviewed about the crimes; is
9 that right?
10 A. Yes, I said that earlier on too.
11 Q. And in the two statements that you've given up to today, both the
12 1995 statement and the statement that you gave to the Defence and you
13 signed, you did not mention this?
14 A. I mentioned that. Alija Izetbegovic was in front of my house and
15 I will say that whenever. That's the same statement that I made in 1995.
16 There's that statement of mine there. Read it. See what I said there.
17 Q. I've read it and there's no mention, but I'll leave it at that.
18 MS. IODICE: I have no further questions, Your Honours.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is there.
20 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson, you would agree that there is no
21 mention of Izetbegovic in this statement?
22 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. But I think perhaps the
23 statement --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is.
25 MR. ROBINSON: The statement --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 MR. ROBINSON: We could all look at the statement, it should be
3 admitted, I think, and then everybody can see it for themselves.
4 JUDGE KWON: I don't see a point of admitting this statement for
5 that purpose.
6 Yes, Mr. Karadzic -- I take it, Ms. Iodice, you're not tendering
7 that statement, are you?
8 [Prosecution counsel confer]
9 MS. IODICE: No, Your Honour, I'm not tendering the statement,
10 but I think we can agree with the Defence that there's no mention in that
11 statement and in the Defence statement that they prepared.
12 JUDGE KWON: That was my understanding.
13 Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just two questions,
15 Your Excellency.
16 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
17 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Pikulic, when did you go to the
18 Presidency -- or rather, when you went, was it necessary to ask for
20 A. It wasn't because there was this doorman who worked there and he
21 recognised me. He said, "What are you doing here?" And I said, "I came
22 to get some food." And he said, "You wait here by the reception desk,"
23 and the reception desk is nearby. And then there was this other room
24 that was an office, and that's where women typed on typewriters and
25 that's where it was. And then when I saw this man walking out -- I mean,
1 I heard this screaming and I looked at all of that and --
2 Q. Thank you. However, for you to go from your house to the
3 Presidency, could you freely do that or did you need to get permission
4 for that?
5 A. The policeman who was in front of my door in my garage, he's the
6 one who had to allow me to do that.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 A. They know that I worked there in that company, so they let me go.
9 Q. Thank you. After you gave this statement in 1996, did you ever
10 read it again? I mean, have you read it recently?
11 A. 1996?
12 Q. The first statement you gave in 1995 or 1996.
13 A. It was in 1995. I got out in 1994 and I gave the statement in
15 Q. After that, have you ever read it?
16 A. What? You mean my statement? Yes. I have this newspaper at
17 home, I have all of it, I should have brought that along, I really should
18 have, and you would have seen that that's exactly the way it was. Well,
19 anyway, I can send it to you. I can send you those newspapers and you
20 see for yourself.
21 Q. Did they ask you anything about Alija Izetbegovic in 1995?
22 A. Yes. Yes. They asked me from the very beginning, just as I told
23 you at -- like you're asking me now, but then you skipped certain things.
24 I mean, I don't understand any of this. I just understand how it is that
25 I'm supposed to talk from the very beginning. From 1992 until -- until
1 the 16th of May -- I mean, I can tell you all of that straight-out of my
2 head and you've heard some of it.
3 Q. Thank you, Madam. It is our responsibility because we had to
4 limit our questions.
5 A. Ah, all right. But if you wish I can send you those newspapers.
6 I have all of that.
7 Q. Just one question. Did you mention Izetbegovic in the
9 A. Yes, yes, I did. And, if necessary, I'll send those newspapers
10 to the Court.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There you go, it is in the
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
16 Yes, thank you, Mrs. Pikulic. That concludes your evidence at
17 the Tribunal. On behalf of this Chamber I would like to thank you for
18 your coming to The Hague to give us. Now you are free to go.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wish you all the very best too,
20 and thank you for receiving me.
21 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
22 [The witness withdrew]
23 JUDGE KWON: Could the Chamber move into private session briefly.
24 [Private session]
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: Back in open session.
6 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours. Just a moment of brief indulgence.
7 Sorry, I'm over here because I don't have direct eye contact with
8 Your Honours otherwise. I'll be leading the next witness. I wonder if
9 we could just have about three minutes to switch places; I'll do it as
10 fast as I can.
11 JUDGE KWON: Please proceed.
12 [The witness entered court]
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you for the indulgence, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE KWON: So let me going back to the previous issue since
16 Ms. Iodice is here. If the Defence does not agree that the previous
17 witness mentioned in her previous statement that Alija Izetbegovic was
18 mentioned in the statement, probably we need to admit that statement for
19 that purpose only. But --
20 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, we agree that it's not in the
21 statement. So we would like to have -- we prefer to have the statement
22 admitted, obviously, but we're not going to dispute that it's not there.
23 JUDGE KWON: I think that suffices. Thank you.
24 Would the witness take the solemn declaration, please.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
1 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
2 WITNESS: RADOJKA PANDUREVIC
3 [Witness answered through interpreter]
4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Please make yourself comfortable.
5 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
8 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Ms. Pandurevic.
9 A. Good afternoon, Mr. President.
10 Q. Right from the start I have to ask you to pause between questions
11 and answers, as we don't want to wear out our interpreters and we want to
12 have everything in the record, in the transcript. Could we please both
13 have this in mind.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I have 1D6703 in e-court.
15 Your Excellencies, does this mean that you will accept the news
16 article referred to by the witness if you found it to be relevant?
17 JUDGE KWON: Let's deal with it when it arises, when it's
18 necessary. Let's move on.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Ms. Pandurevic, did you provide a statement to the Defence team
22 and do you see it before you on the screen now?
23 A. Yes, I did, and I accept it in full as it stands.
24 Q. We have it here in English, but have you read it in the Serbian
25 language and does it accurately reflect what you wanted to say?
1 A. I read the statement, but it doesn't reflect accurately
2 everything I said, as I can see that some portions are marked which were
3 unacceptable and redacted. Those paragraphs have to do with my stay in
4 the Silos camp, which in turn would mean that I cannot convey the
5 suffering I had undergone in the Silos camp.
6 Q. As for the rest, the part of the statement that was not redacted,
7 is it true?
8 A. Yes, it is.
9 Q. Did you sign it?
10 A. I did.
11 Q. If I were to ask you today the same questions concerning the
12 unredacted portion, would your answers be the same in essence?
13 A. They would.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I seek to tender the 65 ter
16 package -- sorry, the 92 ter package with five associated exhibits?
17 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, we are offering only the first five
18 associated exhibits on our Rule 92 ter listing because the others are
19 covered by paragraphs which are redacted. And for these five we would
20 also ask for permission to add them to our 65 ter list because they were
21 not loaded into e-court at the time of the 65 ter list was due.
22 JUDGE KWON: The last two of those five items were not
23 translated, are they?
24 MR. ROBINSON: If they're not in e-court with translations then
25 they haven't been translated, so we would withdraw them at this time.
1 JUDGE KWON: I'm referring to 1D13010 and 1D13011.
2 [Defence counsel confer]
3 JUDGE KWON: Which are dealt with in para 56. If you'd like to
4 deal with -- I would like the accused to deal with the witness live so
5 that we can follow what it is about at least, but you said you are minded
6 to withdraw that document?
7 MR. ROBINSON: If you give me a moment to discuss with
8 Dr. Karadzic.
9 [Defence counsel confer]
10 MR. ROBINSON: We're going to check and see if we can release the
11 translations, see what the problem is. But in the meantime perhaps he
12 can read the summary and we'll try to have that information after the
14 JUDGE KWON: Any objections, Ms. Edgerton?
15 MS. EDGERTON: No.
16 JUDGE KWON: First we will admit the redacted version of Rule 92
17 ter statement.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. 65 ter 1D6703 will be
19 Exhibit D2490.
20 JUDGE KWON: And then we'll admit the first three associated
22 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. 65 ter number 1D3007 will be
23 Exhibit D2491, 65 ter number 1D3008 will be Exhibit D2492, and 65 ter
24 number 1D3009 will be Exhibit D2493.
25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
1 Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will read out a
3 summary concerning the unredacted part of the witness's statement by
4 Ms. Pandurevic in the English language.
5 [In English] Radojka Pandurevic was a member of the SDS Hadzici
6 Municipal Board and president of the SDS local board in Rastelica. After
7 the multi-party election in 1990 she was elected deputy in the Hadzici
8 Municipal Assembly. She regularly attended the sessions of the Hadzici
9 SDS Municipal Board, but they never received orders from the SDS centre.
10 At the meetings they discussed the problems that were present and were
11 thinking about how to rescue their own families and property.
12 The head of the Hadzici SJB Fadil Covic, the Muslim, started a
13 mass mobilisation of the reserve police forces, mainly Muslims, without
14 the commander's knowledge. Commander was a Serb. At the first Assembly
15 meeting after these events, the Serbs asked to have the matter put on the
16 agenda in order to contest the mobilisation only of Muslims. However,
17 the Muslims did not want to discuss this, and the Serbian deputies left
18 the Assembly.
19 After the Muslim attack and occupation of Bradina on 26th of May,
20 1992, and Bradina was a Serbian village, Muslims started arresting Serbs
21 in Rastelica and ordering them to surrender their weapons.
22 Radojka Pandurevic and her family felt unsafe and left to
23 Gornja Rastelica the same day, 28th of May, 1992. Upon her arrival she
24 was taken to meet with Tufo Refik, a Muslim gentleman to give him
25 information about weapons. After this, she and her daughter were taken
1 to the woods and the Muslims threatened the locals hiding there to
2 surrender. They were then taken to the social centre and the Silos in
4 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, does that not cover the redacted part?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's but one sentence,
6 Your Excellency, to simply see what she had gone through rather than
7 going into what her treatment was at the camp.
8 JUDGE KWON: No, it's -- there's no point if it is not in the
9 evidence. Please continue.
10 THE ACCUSED: On 26th of January, 1996, after almost four years
11 of detention, she was taken out from the Silos camp by the members of the
12 international police and taken to her mother's.
13 MS. EDGERTON: Um, Your Honour, that information was also
15 JUDGE KWON: Please bear in mind that your summary which you read
16 out is not a part of evidence at all. So bear that in mind.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I wanted to ask
18 Madam about things that are in the indictment, and for that I need to
19 know and demonstrate where she was and how she knew about that, let alone
20 the fact that I am of the opinion that --
21 JUDGE KWON: If it is necessary, Mr. Karadzic and it is not
22 covered by the remainder of her statement, i.e., that the part of the
23 statement which is not redacted, then you need -- you should put that
24 question to the witness live.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will correct that
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Ms. Pandurevic, before 1990 you were not involved in politics,
4 were you?
5 A. I was not.
6 Q. What was the reason for you entering politics?
7 A. As you well know, in early 1990 the Muslim party, SDA, was
8 established. Immediately following their establishment, the HDZ was
9 established with its seat in Tarcin. They had a church there and there
10 were many Croats living there. The last party to be established was the
11 Serb Democratic Party which was in September 1990. After the party was
12 established, a pre-electoral campaign took off and thus lists were
13 drafted for the Municipal Assembly of Hadzici municipality.
14 As the deputies lists were being created for the
15 Hadzici Municipal Assembly, my colleagues, Muslims, started driving
16 around the village in their vehicles, sporting the SDA flag. On the Serb
17 weekend homes they painted graffiti with the SDA signs and the crescent
18 moon. When my husband and I became married, we came to Rastica, to my
19 father-in-law's property, and we were not well received by our
20 neighbours, as we were both employed and were an educated couple.
21 My father-in-law's family suffered a lot during World War II and
22 he's the only one who survived it because he happened not to be at home.
23 It happened between the 4th and 5th of April, 1945. Only another sister
24 of his survived. She was wounded and taken by Germans to Mostar. He
25 found her two years later. Because of all these events, there was
1 concern that one morning my house will also be painted with SDA signs.
2 That's why I went to Hadzici to the seat of the SDS. Although I had only
3 been a sympathiser up until then, I asked to become a member and to be
4 placed on a list of deputies to be elected to the Hadzici Municipal
5 Assembly. I wanted to be among the first people on the list so that I
6 would make sure I became a deputy in order to be part of the executive
8 Many of my neighbours who ran for deputies and were on the SDA
9 list were well-known criminals with police files. The very idea that
10 they would participate in the work of the executive branch thus deciding
11 on the quality of my life and the life of my fellow citizens in the
12 municipality and to make important decisions made me to take this action.
13 I wanted to sit alongside those people in the Municipal Assembly in order
14 to hear what they had to say so that I would be able to react at any
15 given point in time. That was the reason why I joined the SDS.
16 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, if I may.
17 Your Honours, the Prosecution has had no notice of this evidence
18 nor in your ruling yesterday was Dr. Karadzic or was there any
19 indication, as I read the ruling, that Dr. Karadzic would be allowed to
20 lead evidence viva voce on matters relevant to the indictment otherwise.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, you are well aware of the Court's
23 ruling and I believe that you can monitor your and control your
24 examination-in-chief. Do you follow, Mr. Karadzic?
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do, Your Honour, but I also
1 understand the witness who suffered and wanted to discuss that. I was
2 only interested in her reasons for joining politics, since she was an
3 educated person.
4 JUDGE MORRISON: Well, Dr. Karadzic, everybody understands that
5 where an individual has suffered egregiously that at some point they like
6 to have a hearing as to that. But the reality of the position in which
7 we find ourselves is this is not the right forum for that and accordingly
8 the limitations have been put on. This is not out of a lack of sympathy
9 for the witness; it's to expedite the proceeding.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. In the briefest possible terms, can you tell us what was the
13 basis for your arrest?
14 A. The basis for my arrest was my work in the parliament -- or
15 actually in the Municipal Assembly in Hadzici, since I was an SDS deputy
16 and because I was a Serb.
17 Q. Thank you. Were there other women who were arrested and what was
18 their ethnicity? Also, why were they arrested?
19 MS. EDGERTON: I'm sorry --
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, again --
21 MS. EDGERTON: -- Your Honours.
22 JUDGE KWON: Again, Mr. Karadzic.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Did you ever see me in Hadzici? Did I come to Hadzici while you
1 were there?
2 A. No, I never saw you in Hadzici. I only saw you once in passing
3 during the founding Assembly and today I see you for the second time.
4 Q. The founding Assembly where?
5 A. In Sarajevo, in Skenderija.
6 Q. When?
7 A. The 12th of July, 1990.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D6702.
10 Your Excellencies, I was told that we have been provided with the
11 translations of these two documents, they have been sent by e-mail. By
12 your leave perhaps they can be placed in e-court. First we would need
13 the technician to upload it into e-court, as my case manager does not
14 have direct access.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Ms. Pandurevic, what is this? What is the letter or the note on
17 the screen?
18 A. It is a letter by Ms. Elisabeth Rehn who answered my daughter,
19 Aleksandra. She had met with her in early January 1996. My daughter,
20 Aleksandra, asked her to intervene with the BH authorities, with
21 Alija Izetbegovic specifically, to have the remaining 43 Serbs released
22 who were kept in the Silos camp. She promised she would try to do so;
23 however, I happened to have been released before Ms. Rehn arrived in
25 Q. Which parts of Hadzici municipality was -- were controlled by the
1 Serb side and which parts were controlled by the Muslim side and what was
2 the proportion in terms of size?
3 A. The Serb side controlled part of Hadzici municipality between
4 Ilidza and the quarry in Hadzici. From that point and Dazaric [phoen]
5 and Tarcin, all of the surrounding villages were controlled by the Muslim
7 Q. Did the Serbs control some Muslim settlements or, to put it in
8 these terms, did the armies control their respective territories?
9 A. The Muslims predominantly controlled the territory inhabited by
10 Muslims, and the Serbs controlled the centre of Hadzici and the nearby
11 villages which were populated by Serbs for the most part.
12 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions.
13 JUDGE KWON: How about the -- those two untranslated documents?
14 Yes, Mr. Robinson.
15 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, they're received and sent by
16 e-mail but not uploaded in e-court yet. So if you -- I'll leave it to
17 Dr. Karadzic. My recommendation has been not to pursue it and take our
18 time with that, but he may feel differently.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I get -- I'll turn to you, Ms. Edgerton.
20 1D13010 and 11 which are a part of the associated exhibits without
21 English translation.
22 MS. EDGERTON: I've been looking at those, Your Honours, and
23 frankly I think the exhibits -- or potential exhibits actually speak for
24 themselves and I don't quite find them to be what the witness alleges
25 them to be, so I would be uncomfortable dealing with them in an
1 untranslated manner.
2 JUDGE KWON: No, you didn't receive English translation?
3 MS. EDGERTON: Oh, no.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We have received it by e-mail but
5 our ...
6 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
7 MS. EDGERTON: I've just been told, Your Honours -- oh, I'm
9 JUDGE KWON: I think you were excluded in the recipients. It
10 must be received -- must have been received by other members of the OTP.
11 MS. EDGERTON: Well, if I was to look at my e-mail, but I don't
12 watch it while I'm trying to listen to the witness, I might have seen
13 them eventually from Mr. Reid. If you want them dealt with now, I'm
14 happy to take a couple of minutes.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yeah, we'll cover that at the end of the evidence of
16 this witness.
17 So you don't have any further questions for the witness?
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Should we also
19 tender Ms. Elisabeth Rehn's letter since she was a prominent figure? She
20 tried to intervene after the war to have those people released.
21 JUDGE KWON: Very well, we'll admit it.
22 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
23 MS. EDGERTON: Well, given that Your Honour's have already ruled,
24 I'd still like to make the comment that I find the content of this letter
25 and the witness's comments thereon to be effectively almost a backdoor
1 way of getting around Your Honour's earlier ruling with respect to the
3 JUDGE KWON: Very well. I thought you were not objecting to it.
4 I'll consult my colleagues.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE KWON: I was too quick and then I -- the Chamber will not
7 receive it based upon the ruling we gave previously.
8 Given the time, we'll continue after the break, but Ms. --
9 Mrs. Pandurevic, as you have noted, your evidence in chief was admitted
10 in most part by way of written evidence in lieu of your oral testimony.
11 You will now be cross-examined by the Prosecution after the break.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Why cannot the addition, my oral
13 addition, to the statement be admitted as well?
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes, it is already transcribed. It is in the
16 We'll have a break for an hour and resume at 1.30.
17 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.29 p.m.
18 --- On resuming at 1.31 p.m.
19 JUDGE KWON: Have the parties resolved the issue with respect to
20 those two associated exhibits? Otherwise, I would like you --
21 Mr. Karadzic to deal with viva voce with the witness if he's minded to
22 tender those two documents. Yes, Mr. Robinson.
23 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. I don't know what the
24 Prosecutor's position is, but they did make it into e-court now so that
25 we do have English translations in e-court and we'll be guided by whether
1 the Prosecution will accept that or whether they wish to hear viva voce
2 testimony about it.
3 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber was unable to discern whether it
4 constituted inseparable and indispensable part of the statement because
5 we couldn't read it. But for the sake of time I'll turn to Ms. Edgerton.
6 MS. EDGERTON: Um, now having read the documents, I am satisfied
7 that the documents do speak for themselves, and for that reason I won't
8 object to their admission.
9 JUDGE KWON: Given the circumstances, we'll admit those two
10 documents into evidence and give the numbers.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. 65 ter number 13010 will be
12 Exhibit D2494 and 65 ter number 13011 will be Exhibit D2495.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
14 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
15 Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:
16 Q. Hello, Mrs. Pandurevic.
17 A. Good afternoon, Madam Prosecutor.
18 Q. Thank you. So I take it you can hear me in a language you
20 A. Yes, I can.
21 MS. EDGERTON: Just one question of Your Honours before I go any
22 further. I haven't received any guidance from Your Honours on the issue
23 of time that I have available. Just for my own sake and planning, I
24 wonder if I could hear your guidance?
25 JUDGE KWON: Were you not informed of the amount of time? How
1 long would you need?
2 MS. EDGERTON: 45 minutes or less.
3 JUDGE KWON: I could -- I take it you could finish it in half an
5 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
6 Q. Mrs. Pandurevic, I'd like to ask you some questions based on the
7 statement that you gave, but just before I do that I wonder if you could
8 confirm for us that you were present at the constitutive meeting of the
9 Assembly of the Serbian Municipality of Hadzici on 11 April 1992?
10 A. No, I was not present because that Assembly was held in the
11 afternoon hours and there were already concerns about me having to travel
12 because I live some 10 kilometres away from the Hadzici municipality.
13 And for security reasons, because every day I would have to go through
14 four check-points to get to Hadzici, I did not dare, being a woman, to go
15 so late in such late afternoon to attend the Constituent Assembly, but I
16 do know what was happening there, which organs were elected, and who was
18 Q. Maybe on that point we could have a look at a document. It's
19 P2297. It's the minutes of the meeting of that Assembly. And if -- just
20 take a few minutes and look at this because it's handwritten. And
21 they're dated on 11 April 1992.
22 MS. EDGERTON: And if we could go over to English page 3 and
23 B/C/S page 4. And that page is a list of those present at the Assembly
24 of the Serbian People of Hadzici.
25 Q. Now, do you see your name in the column that's in -- the page
1 that's in your language on the left-hand column at number 18, your name
2 and your signature?
3 A. Yes, my printed first and last name, that's a list of Assemblymen
4 but I don't see that I've signed it.
5 JUDGE KWON: Let's collapse the English page and --
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about that because I
7 know for certain that I wasn't present.
8 JUDGE KWON: Do you see number 18? We can only see the 8.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do, I see it. I see 8 and I see
10 my first and last name, but I was not present at this constitutive
11 Assembly. Perhaps I did affix my signature later on for some other
12 reasons because they were necessary, but I did not attend, I know for
13 sure, because it was held in the afternoon. But yes, this is my
15 MS. EDGERTON:
16 Q. So you having recognised your signature then, we can move on.
17 Just another question that perhaps you can confirm to me. Can you
18 confirm that you were captured on 28 May 1992? Just a yes or no as to
19 the date would be fine?
20 A. Yes, the 28th of May, 1992.
21 Q. So --
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just request about this first
23 document where it says that this was the Constituent Assembly, because it
24 may have been one of the assemblies because it didn't say there that this
25 was a list of those present at the Constituent Assembly could we just see
1 the first page, please.
2 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton.
3 MS. EDGERTON: The source for my assertion that it was the
4 Constituent Assembly comes from the evidence of Mr. Glavas before
5 Your Honours and if I can -- I can either move on and give Your Honours
6 the exhibit number for his written evidence later or I can take a couple
7 of moments and give you that number now.
8 JUDGE KWON: I think it would suffice to provide that information
9 outside the courtroom to the Defence. Let's move on.
10 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
11 Q. So now in your statement at paragraph 63, referring to the
12 formation of the Crisis Staff, are we meant to understand then that the
13 Crisis Staff of the Serbian municipality of Hadzici had not been formed
14 before 28 May 1992?
15 A. When the Crisis Staff of the Serbian Municipality of Hadzici, I
16 don't know, because I could not go to the Serb part of the Hadzici
17 municipality after the 4th of May because the war had already broken out
18 and it wasn't safe. So the 4th of May was the last day when I was
19 actually in Hadzici.
20 Q. Ah, so when you said in your statement that you -- that it hadn't
21 been formed before the 28th of May, you actually meant to say you didn't
22 know when it was formed; is that correct ?
23 A. I don't know. No, I don't know when exactly it was established,
24 but I assume that by the time I was arrested on the 28th of May it hadn't
25 been established. And the 4th of May was the last day when I was in
1 the -- on the territory of the municipality of Hadzici.
2 Q. Okay.
3 MS. EDGERTON: Let's have a look at D1084.
4 Q. It's a document dated 26th of May, 1992, signed by Ratko Radic.
5 You know who Ratko Radic is, Mrs. Pandurevic?
6 A. Ratko Radic was the president of the SDS and later on, after the
7 20th or the 28th - I'm not sure of the date -- because up until I was
8 arrested Ratko Radic was not the president of the Municipal Assembly nor
9 was he the president of the Crisis Staff, but I do know that he was the
10 chairman of the Serbian Democratic Party. And I don't know. I didn't
11 even know who the members of the Crisis Staff were because I had already
12 been cut off from the headquarters, the municipality, the party, and so
13 on. So I don't know these things. The communications did not exist.
14 Q. So if I could just get you to have a look at this document which
15 is signed by Ratko Radic as president of the Crisis Staff. And at the
16 very top line of the document reads:
17 "At a meeting of the Hadzici Serb Municipality Crisis Staff we
18 pass the following decisions ..."
19 And note that the document is dated 28th -- pardon me, 26th May,
20 1992. You would concede then that the -- on the basis of this document
21 it looks as though the Crisis Staff was functioning by the date of your
23 A. I don't know anything about that because there was no
24 communication between me and the municipality of Hadzici or the party, so
25 I wouldn't know anything about that.
1 Q. All right. Now, also in your statement at paragraph 61, and it's
2 in regard to the activity of the SDS Municipal Board for Hadzici, you
4 "I claim with full responsibility we never received any orders
5 from the top, the SDS centre ..."
6 And then you said Ratko Radic never told you about anything being
7 an order from the SDS Main Board or President Karadzic and that you made
8 all the decisions on your own. Now, do you mean by saying that to
9 suggest that the SDS party structure was not hierarchical?
10 A. Could you please just clarify a bit?
11 Q. When you say you got no orders from the top, do you mean to
12 suggest that the SDS party structure was something other than
13 hierarchical, that it didn't have a hierarchical structure?
14 A. There was no need for any orders because at the time the party
15 was busy with being established, the establishment of lists of candidates
16 and Assemblymen, and busy organising the structure of government at the
17 period. Ratko Radic did have communications. He contacted the main
18 headquarters of the Serbian Democratic Party, but he never brought back
19 with him any orders or anything of that sort. We dealt with our own
20 problems in the Hadzici municipality because we had major problems from
21 the very first days of the establishment of the municipality with the
22 functioning of the organs, the political organs. So there was no need to
23 get any orders. These were local issues that were dealt with.
24 Q. So you're not disputing that the party had a hierarchical
25 structure with Dr. Karadzic at the top?
1 A. Well, as far as I know, the contacts did exist but this was not
2 in any sense a situation where orders would be issued nor were there any
3 obligations that someone would issue orders. Strictly speaking,
4 absolutely not, and especially President Karadzic never issued any orders
5 either written or signed or anything of that sort -- at least I never saw
7 Q. Well, I'd like to go to another document. If you tell me you'd
8 like to see it I'll have it called up for you. For the record, it's
9 P961, the minutes of the -- pardon me, the stenograph of the Assembly of
10 the Serbian People on 24 March, 1992, English page 22, paragraph 5, and
11 B/C/S page 39, paragraph 2. I'm a bit confused about this assertion
12 because on that day, 24 March, Dr. Karadzic told the delegates the
13 following. He said:
14 "We have a legal basis on the Law on Internal Affairs and we also
15 have the insignia and at a desired moment, and this will be very soon, we
16 can form whatever we want. There are reasons why this could happen in
17 two or three days. Such are the forecasts but I can't tell you the
18 reasons now. At that moment, all the Serbian municipalities, both the
19 old ones and the newly established ones, would literally assume control
20 of the entire territory of the municipality concerned."
21 And further he says then:
22 "At a given moment in the next three or four days there will be a
23 single method used and you will be able to apply it in the municipalities
24 you represent, including both things that must be done as well as how to
25 do them, how to separate the police force, take the resources that belong
1 to the Serbian people, and take command."
2 So now, Mrs. Pandurevic, actually it looks like that, in fact,
3 the very act that we talked about, the formation of the Assembly of
4 Serbian people of Hadzici, a very significant act for the Serbian people
5 there, wasn't an autonomous decision. That was a decision taken by the
6 Serbian people according to a directive by Dr. Karadzic in the SDS.
7 Wouldn't you agree?
8 A. Could you please just clarify what date, on what May was it that
9 Dr. Karadzic issued that order?
10 Q. This was what Dr. Karadzic said to delegates in the Assembly of
11 Serbian People on 24 March 1992.
12 A. The deputies of the Hadzici Municipal Assembly had already as of
13 October 1992 departed from the Municipal Assembly of Hadzici and its work
14 because of the reports we received on the work of the police because of
15 their disagreement with the replacement of all the managers in schools,
16 companies, and medical centres in Hadzici, especially so because the
17 municipality was not really authorised to replace people in certain
18 organisations because they were under the management of the town itself,
19 not the municipality. And because we couldn't get that information from
20 the reserve force, police force, and we could not get their -- the
21 decision saying that there was an agreement on replacing all of these
22 leading people, there was a man who worked --
23 Q. Mrs. Pandurevic --
24 A. -- on military records in the municipality -- well, I'm trying to
25 explain to you that it had already been a long time that we had stopped
1 this work and that we had established a council of sorts where we tried
2 to see what we were to do next, and then we would try to explain to the
3 Serb people by placing a notice in the paper on what it was that we were
4 going to do.
5 Q. When did the Assembly of the Serbian Municipality of Hadzici get
6 formed then?
7 A. It was established in 1991, at the end of 1991, and it ceased to
8 exist in -- or actually, it ceased to exist, it stopped working in
9 October 1991, so it was very brief period that it was operational.
10 Sometime between December 1990 up until early October 1991.
11 Q. You're saying that the Assembly of the Serbian Municipality of
12 Hadzici stopped functioning in October 1991? That's what I understood
13 from the interpretation.
14 A. No, not the Serb municipality, but the Hadzici municipality of
15 Bosnia and Herzegovina, of the then-Bosnia and Herzegovina.
16 Q. My question is about --
17 A. And the Serbian Municipality of Hadzici had not been established
18 yet. As you may know, it was only established sometime in April 1992.
19 In other words, five months after the work of the Municipal Assembly of
20 Hadzici ceased to function, of the former BH.
21 Q. And two weeks after Dr. Karadzic made that statement at the
22 Bosnian Serb Assembly?
23 A. I don't remember that statement and I did not take part in the
24 establishment of this Serb municipality. As you know, I could not attend
25 because of the trip that I had to make.
1 Q. Thank you. I'm just going to go over to one last area. You
2 refer in your statement at paragraph 65 to Muslims leaving Hadzici in the
3 direction of Kiseljak because they were afraid of Serbian revenge. And
4 you say you heard that from some friends. Did you hear that from Muslim
6 A. Both from Muslim and from Serb friends because horrible things
7 were happening in Tarcin camp and those colleagues of theirs, their
8 countrymen, they did those things to us, Serbs. And for this reason --
9 Q. Now, Mrs. Pandurevic --
10 A. -- they didn't feel safe and they tried to cross over.
11 Q. -- I just you asked the question if you heard it from Muslim
12 friends and you gave your answer. Thank you.
13 Now, is your evidence then, based on what you said in your
14 statement, that Muslims left Hadzici town spontaneously, of their own
16 A. Yes, in the same way that Serbs, women and children, left Hadzici
17 and Tarcinovici when the men were arrested on their own.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] A reply of the witness is missing.
19 After the question whether she had heard this from her Muslim friends,
20 the witness said "yes," but that did not make it into the transcript.
21 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Let's continue.
22 MS. EDGERTON:
23 Q. So, Mrs. Pandurevic, this Chamber has received evidence that
24 between May 25th and June 22nd, 1992, just over 280 non-Serbs had been
25 taken by Serb forces from their homes around the town of Hadzici and
1 detained in the sports centre. And that's found at P2403, paragraph 64,
2 at page 12. And on 22 June they were taken from there and from another
3 location under the garage municipality building on four buses and taken
4 out of Hadzici and via Ilidza to Lukavica barracks and then to Kula
5 prison. And that's found also at P2403, paragraphs 65 to 94. So does
6 that sound like something spontaneous to you?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just say a remark here. This
8 is misleading. We heard from Witness Music that they had not been
9 detained but that they were actually returned from unsuccessful exchanges
10 of prisoners. And the witness is here now in a position to talk or state
11 things about something that wasn't properly interpreted; and secondly, at
12 the time she was in prison.
13 JUDGE KWON: That's the point you can put to the witness in your
14 re-examination, but I didn't follow whether it's Music or not. She
15 referred to P2403.
16 Yes, Ms. Edgerton, if you could clarify.
17 MS. EDGERTON: That is the written evidence of the gentleman by
18 the name Dr. Karadzic refers to, and the story of failed exchanges that
19 Dr. Karadzic also refers to I believe the evidence will show post-dates
20 that. But it's a matter for him to raise in his re-direct should he so
22 JUDGE KWON: So for the benefit of the witness, could you repeat
23 your question or put your question again.
24 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, thank you. I'll do that again.
25 Q. So, Mrs. Pandurevic, this Chamber has received evidence that
1 between May 25th and 22 June 1992 there came to be more than 280, just
2 over 280, non-Serbs who had been progressively taken by Serbian forces
3 from their homes surrounding the town of Hadzici and detained in the
4 sports centre. And then they've also heard that on 22 June 1992 these
5 people were taken from there and from the garage under the municipality
6 building on four buses out of Hadzici, and they went via Ilidza to
7 Lukavica barracks and then to Kula prison, and the source for that is
8 P2403. And my question is quite simple: Based on your previous answer,
9 does that sound like non-Serbs were leaving Hadzici spontaneously to you?
10 A. All communications were interrupted on the 10th of May from
11 Hadzici to Tarcin. So as for these things that happened and these things
12 that happened in Hadzici, I don't know about any of that. I never knew
13 about any of that.
14 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for just a few seconds.
15 [Prosecution counsel confer]
16 MS. EDGERTON: That will be everything, Your Honour. I have
17 nothing further.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just two brief questions,
21 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
22 Q. [Interpretation] Mrs. Pandurevic, were you aware of the fact that
23 the 18th of March the Lisbon Agreement had been drafted with the
24 Cutileiro Plan as a basis?
25 A. President, it was such a long time ago, and I really cannot
1 remember now.
2 Q. Thank you. Did the Muslims have their own municipality of
3 Hadzici in the areas that they controlled?
4 A. Yes. They had established it beforehand. Not immediately after
5 the Municipal Assembly ceased to function, I mean the former legal one in
6 BH. They established some kind of crisis body in order to be able to
7 make decisions and then they established the Muslim municipality of
9 Q. Thank you. When was it that they established this crisis body,
10 which year, do you remember?
11 A. Soon. In October 1991 we Serbs left the parliament and perhaps
12 in a month or in a month and a half they established this Crisis Staff,
13 and then they invited other persons who were not members of the SDA to
14 attend sessions of this Crisis Staff so that they could reach decisions.
15 And the secretary of the SDS went to one of these sessions and he was
16 attacked and they said, "What do you want here? Go to your
17 'drozgometva' and look for your Chetniks there." After that, no one ever
18 went again.
19 Q. Thank you. You said a moment ago that the appointment of school
20 principals and directors of health centres was something that the town
21 was in charge of. Can you explain that? I see how it was interpreted
22 here as "town."
23 A. It was the city of Sarajevo that consisted of 10 or 11
24 municipalities. I can no longer remember. In some of the powers from
25 the local communes were regulated by the city itself, so that was
1 secondary schools, universities, health centres, and so on. So all 10 or
2 11 municipalities that made up the city of Sarajevo, it was the city or
3 town of Sarajevo that decided about school principals, directors of
4 health centres, and so on.
5 Q. Thank you. And what was this thing that happened in Hadzici?
6 A. Well, the SDA asked that all the persons who were office-holders
7 before the elections to be replaced, dismissed, and then the Assemblymen
8 from the socialist party or whatever it was called did not agree to that,
9 to change all the persons who were in important positions.
10 Q. So did these replacements take place and what was the essence?
11 A. The essence was appointing new people of the SDA or the SDS. The
12 SDS did not accept this and that is one of the reasons why we left the
13 Assembly and no longer took part in its work.
14 Q. So some from the SDS would be appointed too, but the SDS did not
15 accept that; right?
16 A. We did not accept to have the people who were in important
17 positions then replaced because that would mean that all school
18 principals would be dismissed, all directors of companies, of health
19 centres, and so on, and the SDS did not accept that.
20 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions.
21 MS. EDGERTON: And that last question from Dr. Karadzic was
22 really leading.
23 JUDGE KWON: Very much so.
24 Well, that --
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise. I just repeated what
1 the witness herself said in the answer just before that in order to be
2 sure. There was no intention on my part.
3 JUDGE KWON: That concludes your evidence, Mrs. Pandurevic. On
4 behalf of the Chamber I'd like to thank you for your coming to The Hague
5 to give it. Now you are free to go.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I say something?
7 JUDGE KWON: Usually we do not hear from the witness. I will
8 have a word with my colleagues.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE KWON: At this time the Chamber will not entertain your
11 submission. Thank you for your understanding.
12 [The witness withdrew]
13 JUDGE KWON: Can I hear about the next witness's scheduling?
14 Yes, Mr. Robinson.
15 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. The next witness is
16 Nikola Mijatovic and we are prepared to conduct his direct examination at
17 this time. We understand that the Prosecution would like to have until
18 tomorrow to begin the cross-examination because of late disclosure of
19 some documents and his revised statement which was not provided to them
20 within the 48 hours that would allow him to testify today. We had
21 anticipated he would be testifying tomorrow but with the exclusion of
22 Mr. -- of one witness and reduction of others, his testimony is being
23 accelerated. So we don't have any objection to the Prosecution
24 conducting their cross-examination tomorrow.
25 JUDGE KWON: And after Mijatovic?
1 MR. ROBINSON: He's the last witness that we have for this week.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE KWON: On a separate note, Mr. Robinson, we admitted two
4 associated exhibits that were not translated at the time of the filing on
5 an exceptional basis. But in the future, starting from the next witness,
6 the Chamber will not admit as associated exhibits untranslated documents
7 because it's simply unable to find whether it constitute indispensable or
8 inseparable part of the statement. So therefore, if the accused wishes
9 to tender those documents he should lead -- lie with the witness.
10 MR. ROBINSON: I couldn't agree with you more.
11 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
12 And could the Chamber move into private session briefly.
13 [Private session]
7 [Open session]
8 JUDGE KWON: Let's bring in the witness.
9 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
10 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, if I may, just before we do that, by
11 my best reckoning with the e-mails I've received about this witness, I
12 still don't see two translated documents that the last e-mail from one of
13 Dr. Karadzic's associates indicated was outstanding. So that's one thing
14 I wanted to raise. Second thing I wanted to raise was with respect to
15 the statement itself, there's another dropped incident referred to at
16 paragraph 18, that's the shelling of the TV building on 28 June --
17 JUDGE KWON: Para 24 or 18 --
18 MS. EDGERTON: Oh, pardon me, there's been of course a different
19 version of the statement that was filed recently and I think my numbering
20 is off. In any case -- my numbering is off. It's paragraph 24 indeed
21 and I'd be asking for the redaction of that paragraph.
22 And finally and further, Your Honours, just to clarify the
23 understanding between Mr. Robinson and myself, that would be that the new
24 evidence that arrived in the last revised version of the statement be led
25 live, and I would be asking Your Honours for your indulgence on the
1 cross-examination of this witness, if at all possible, that we could not
2 begin at 9.00 tomorrow but perhaps one session later than that.
3 JUDGE KWON: Can I hear from you, Ms. Edgerton or Mr. Tieger, as
4 to the scheduling issue in general that we don't have further witness for
5 the week after the next witness.
6 MR. TIEGER: I'm not quite sure what the Court has in mind,
7 Mr. President. What I can tell you about my discussions with
8 Mr. Robinson in connection with scheduling, but if that illuminates some
9 aspect of scheduling that the Court has in mind. But otherwise, I
10 imagine that the Court would be putting this question to Mr. Robinson.
11 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber fully understands that there's never a
12 dull moment and that anything can arise during the course of hearing, but
13 the Chamber is concerned about losing time due to lack of witnesses.
14 MR. TIEGER: Mr. President, I agree. I'm just not sure what
15 light you'd like me to shed on the Defence's scheduling arrangements.
16 JUDGE KWON: If you do not have any observation, that's fine.
17 Thank you.
18 Would you like to add anything, Mr. Robinson?
19 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. First of all, with the
20 scheduling situation we apologise that we don't have more witnesses
21 available this week. Two weeks ago when we had the -- last week we had
22 four witnesses who had to go home because they were here waiting, and the
23 week before two witnesses had to stay over and two had to go home. So we
24 had too many witnesses and we tried to learn for that. I think we were
25 almost about spot on this week were it not for the fact excluded one
1 witness and you also reduced the cross-examination times, so you cut us a
2 little bit short. Had it not been for that I think we would have made it
3 almost through the end of the day tomorrow. So that's the situation and
4 we apologise. We're doing the best we can. Sometimes we come short,
5 sometimes we have too many, but we're trying to do our best on that.
6 If I can be heard --
7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
8 MR. ROBINSON: I'd like to be heard on the other issues as well,
9 but if want to consult before that you can.
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue. Yes, Mr. Robinson.
11 MR. ROBINSON: With respect to the two exhibits that Ms. Edgerton
12 mentioned, it's true that they're not translated and we withdraw one of
13 them, 1D6286. For the other, Dr. Karadzic would like to lead it live and
14 that's 1D6291. With respect to the issue of the new parts of the
15 statement, I think maybe there was a misunderstanding between
16 Ms. Edgerton and I because I didn't feel that we agreed to lead them
17 live. We just agreed that the Prosecution can have whatever time they
18 need to prepare for the cross-examination.
19 So these incidents -- this information was available to the
20 Prosecution within the 48 hours that the rule requires, and I don't
21 believe that it's that extensive that would require any further delay.
22 But whatever time they need and they can convince the Chamber is
23 appropriate, we're happy to give them. But there's no point in leading
24 it live and wasting all of our time hearing oral evidence that can be
25 read without doing that. Thank you.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE MORRISON: Mr. Tieger.
3 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry, in this case the Court was too quick. I
4 appreciate the Court's about to deliberate on the substance of this
5 matter, but I think I need to emphasize that whatever misunderstanding
6 there was about that discussion is purely on Mr. Robinson's part. Both
7 Ms. Edgerton and I were present when that discussion was held. That was
8 clearly expressed and we understood clearly from our discussion that
9 there was an agreement and we conveyed that when we returned to our
10 offices to the rest of the team. So there may be a misunderstanding but
11 not on our part.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I? Just in terms of the
14 incident that has been excluded from the indictment and is contained in
15 paragraph 24, it matters to me because of this other incident that was
16 excluded --
17 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic --
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- and that has to do with --
19 JUDGE KWON: -- let's stick to the principle. If you'd like to
20 maintain such position, then it would be only fair that the Prosecution
21 should be allowed to reinstate that dropped charge and hear the evidence.
22 So let's not -- let's be consistent with our practice not to hear
23 the dropped evidence about the dropped charge. So let -- so shall we --
24 I will order that para 24 to be redacted. And with respect to the
25 recently added 11 paragraphs, the Chamber having reviewed the additional
1 paras -- paragraphs and exhibits, the Chamber considers that the changes
2 either provide additional detail to information already included in the
3 statement or are not so significant to warrant ordering the accused to
4 lead the witness live on the additional material. The Chamber will admit
5 it pursuant to Rule 92 ter when the requirements are satisfied.
6 Let's bring in the witness.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just a correction. In paragraph
8 26, it is the 26th of May that is referred to, not the 26th of June. I
9 do apologise. It's our mistake.
10 MS. EDGERTON: And just on the correction that Dr. Karadzic has
11 offered, it seems to me that that's something he should do when the
12 witness comes and through the witness, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE KWON: It is not he that gives evidence.
14 [The witness entered court]
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But it's a mistake. It's a typo.
16 It's not a mistake of substance, if you will.
17 JUDGE KWON: But she signed on that statement -- he signed.
18 Good afternoon, sir.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE KWON: Would you take the solemn declaration, please.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
22 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
23 WITNESS: NIKOLA MIJATOVIC
24 [Witness answered through interpreter]
25 JUDGE KWON: Please be seated and make yourself comfortable.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much. Thank you.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
3 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
4 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Mijatovic.
5 A. Good afternoon, Mr. President. May I ask how you're doing?
6 Q. Thank you. Well. I don't know with which rank you left the
7 army; that's why I didn't address you by your rank.
8 A. I held the rank of major.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have 1D6700 in
11 e-court, please.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Major, sir --
14 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. We will not broadcast this.
15 Yes, please continue.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Did you give a statement to the Defence team and do you see that
19 statement before you on the screen?
20 A. Yes, I see that statement before myself now on this screen and,
21 yes, I did give this statement.
22 Q. Thank you. I've been waiting and I kindly ask you to wait for
23 the interpretation. Actually, when the typing on the transcript stops,
24 that's means that the interpretation is over.
25 Does this statement contain facts that you accurately presented?
1 A. It contains accurate facts and I stand by all the statements --
2 all the facts that I presented.
3 Q. Thank you. Did you sign this statement?
4 A. I signed this statement in my own hand.
5 Q. Thank you. If I were to put the same questions to you today,
6 would your answers basically be the same?
7 A. They would be identical.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I please tender this 92 ter
10 package but we withdraw the document that Mr. Robinson referred to. I'm
11 going to deal with the other one viva voce with the witness.
12 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, we ask that these be added to our
13 Rule 65 ter list because they were worked on with the witness after the
14 list was filed. And the one that we're withdrawing is 6286 and the one
15 that we want to lead live is 6291.
16 JUDGE KWON: In the future, why don't you try to put some
17 explanation as to whether there's good cause not to include these
18 documents in the 65 ter list?
19 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, I think I've been doing that actually, but
20 what I meant to say here was that when these documents were disclosed --
21 discovered, it was already after we had filed our 65 ter list and it was
22 decided that they should be used with this witness. So we didn't -- we
23 hadn't put them on the list because at that time the determination hadn't
24 been made that we would use them.
25 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton, any objections?
1 MS. EDGERTON: To the documents, no.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to ask for a bit of
3 flexibility because I know the facts the best and it's only when I see
4 the witnesses during proofing -- it's only then that I can ask the
5 witnesses whether they know of this or that fact. I do not have that
6 kind of confidential relationship with the investigators.
7 JUDGE KWON: Simply they cannot constitute a good cause of any in
8 itself. However, Mr. Robinson, I do not see the relevance of 1D8566.
9 Can I hear about that? What's the relevance of this document? It's
10 paragraph 28.
11 MR. ROBINSON: Yes. According to paragraph 28 it indicates that
12 it shows where enemy forces were positioned in the city, thus relating to
13 the issue of whether they were legitimate military targets.
14 JUDGE KWON: In order to determine whether it's relevant or not
15 if the accused wishes to tender this document, I would like him to deal
16 with this document with the witness live. So with the exception of this
17 document and the untranslated documents, we'll admit them all and then
18 give numbers in due course. But why don't we give the number for the
19 Rule 92 ter statement first.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. 65 ter number 1D6700 will be
21 Exhibit D2496 under seal, and the public redacted version will be
22 Exhibit D2497.
23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
24 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will read out a
1 statement of the witness's --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction:
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] A summary of the witness's
5 [In English] Nikola Mijatovic lived in Sarajevo with his family
6 until early 1992 when a Muslim neighbour informed him that there was a
7 plan to murder him, since he had lived in the area for approximately a
8 decade and was one of the most prominent Serbs. He and his family decide
9 to flee to the predominantly Serbian settlement of Starosedeoca, near
10 Alipasino Polje.
11 He had information that weapons were being distributed in
12 Alipasino Polje, not to everyone, but only to those considered
13 sufficiently reliable by the Muslim organisers.
14 The permanent orders were not to open fire on civilian targets.
15 The reason for this, among others, was that the Muslim forces often
16 falsely informed members of the UNPROFOR and the UN observers that the
17 Serbian side was opening fire on civilian targets. Although this was not
18 true, his superior command did not want to leave anything to chance.
19 Nikola Mijatovic is not aware that anyone in his brigade
20 prevented the supply of petrol, water, or electricity to the Muslim parts
21 of Sarajevo. Conversely, due to the Muslim shelling of the transformer
22 station, the supply of electricity to Ilidza was interrupted, and in turn
23 also to the parts of the city under Muslim control which obtained
24 electricity through Ilidza. On this occasion the Muslim forces falsely
25 informed UNPROFOR that it was the Serbs who had cut off their electricity
2 According to his information, the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps
3 suffered from a severe shortage of artillery and mortar ammunition. It
4 is for these reasons that the corps was compelled to use modified aerial
5 bombs. The trajectory of these bombs was predetermined and could be
6 controlled. As with any other type of guided weapons, there was a chance
7 of minimum deviation due to the meteorological conditions. The objective
8 for using modified aerial bombs was defence. No one in his brigade nor,
9 as far as he knows, in the corps command intended to terrorise civilians
10 in parts of the city controlled by Muslim forces. He received reports
11 from his intelligence sources that Muslims were also using modified
12 aerial bombs. Nor the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps nor the VRS had aerosol
13 bombs in their arsenals.
14 His brigade was unable to target communications centres and
15 suggested that another brigade should do it, since he was unable to
16 guarantee that they would be able to hit the targets with precision.
17 Regarding the incident of 28th of June -- it's going out I
19 Regarding the incident in Hrasnica on 7th of April, 1995, as far
20 as Nikola Mijatovic knows, the command of the BH army was indeed the
21 centre of Hrasnica, and according to some intelligence there was a
22 120-millimetre mortar nest near the place where it fell, which was manned
23 by soldiers of the Army of BH. He does not know any other details about
24 the incident. Regarding the incident at Safeta Zajke Street on 26th of
25 June, 1995, Nikola Mijatovic points out that on 26th -- sorry, on 26th of
1 May, 1995, an all-out Muslim offensive was launched on all lines of the
2 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, mostly the Ilidza Brigade.
3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, due to some urgent matters the Chamber
4 needs to rise now, so we'll adjourn for today.
5 THE ACCUSED: Okay.
6 JUDGE KWON: And we'll resume at 11.00.
7 Would that suffice, Ms. Edgerton?
8 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you very much.
9 JUDGE KWON: And the Prosecution will have one and a half hours
10 for its cross-examination.
11 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
12 JUDGE KWON: Tomorrow, 11.00.
13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.36 p.m.,
14 to be reconvened on Friday, the 30th day of
15 November, 2012, at 11.00 a.m.