1 Friday, 30 November 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 11.02 a.m.
5 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone. Today we'll be sitting
6 pursuant to Rule 15 bis with Judge Morrison being away due to his urgent
7 personal matters.
8 Before we continue to hear the evidence, the Chamber will issue
9 an oral ruling on the Prosecution's motion to exclude the evidence of
10 witness Goran Sikiras filed on the 26th of November, 2012, wherein the
11 Prosecution seeks the execution or, in the alternative, the partial
12 exclusion of Goran Sikiras's evidence on the basis that it is for the
13 most part irrelevant as it pertains to crimes committed against Serbs and
14 that the remainder of the proposed evidence is duplicative of evidence
15 already admitted and/or of low probative value.
16 The accused filed his response on the 27th of November, 2012,
17 opposing the motion and arguing that Sikiras's evidence is relevant to
18 events in the municipality of Vogosca in 1992. More particularly, he
19 submits that the evidence shows that Bosnian Serbs did not make
20 unprovoked attacks in Vogosca and that:
21 "These expulsions and killings were not the result of a joint
22 criminal enterprise to expel or kill Muslims but were part of a civil war
23 in which each side attacked the other."
24 The Chamber notes that about half of Sikiras's statement is
25 concerned with crimes committed against Bosnian Serbs in Vogosca and as
1 such are not relevant to the charges in the indictment. I refer here to
2 page 4, parts of page 5, as well as pages 6 and 7. The Chamber reminds
3 the accused once again that it will not admit detailed tu quoque evidence
4 under the guise of relevance to this trial. However, the Chamber
5 considers that the remainder of Sikiras's statement is of some relevance
6 to the background to the take-over of Vogosca. And the Chamber therefore
7 grants the motion in part and excludes page 4, starting from line 2;
8 page 5, except the three paragraphs starting with, first, on the
9 5th of May, 1992; second, on the 12th of May, 1992; and finally on the
10 8th of June 1992; page 6 in its entirety; and page 7 in its entirety
11 except the witness's acknowledgement as well as the associated exhibits
12 referred therein. The Chamber allows the remainder of Goran Sikiras's
13 statement to be tendered pursuant to Rule 92 ter should the accused still
14 wish to call him to testify in this trial. In light of the redactions
15 made to the statement, the Chamber orders that the Prosecution shall have
16 30 minutes for its cross-examination.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, may I say
18 something not necessarily related to this?
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It has nothing to do with this
21 decision but the way I understand the indictment and what I stand accused
22 of. I am accused of having ordered all of those events as if I had
23 caused fear amongst the Serbs and that everything was fine before the SDS
24 and Karadzic came along setting a chain of events in motion.
25 It is my understanding of the indictment is that many events
1 generated themselves, not by the tu quoque principle but simply by virtue
2 of orders of local commanders or that things were dictated by the events
3 themselves. That is why it is relevant to see what one side had gone
4 through and the other as well before all that. One needs to understand
5 the behaviour and mentality of the three ethnic communities and it goes
6 beyond the mere orders. This is the broader concept which stands against
7 the idea of a joint criminal enterprise. This was a civil war which was
8 the umpteenth civil war that these ethnicities engaged in and it was not
9 part of a JCE but a result of history and having these three ethnicities
10 kill each other through centuries.
11 JUDGE KWON: We'll stop you. That does not necessarily mean that
12 you have to allude to the evidence of crimes against you for each and
13 every -- for each and every witness.
14 Just a second.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE KWON: I'll leave it at that at the moment. Let's bring in
17 the witness, unless there's any other matters to be dealt with.
18 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, while we're bringing in the witness
19 this isn't something that needs to be done out of his presence but during
20 his direct examination we would be wanting to use a video that was
21 disclosed to us yesterday by the Prosecution and we would like to have
22 permission to add that to our 65 ter list, since it wasn't in our
23 possession at the time it was created.
24 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton.
25 MS. EDGERTON: No objection.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Your request is granted, Mr. Robinson.
2 [The witness takes the stand]
3 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, Mr. Mijatovic.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours, and
5 good morning to everyone in the courtroom.
6 JUDGE KWON: Please make yourself comfortable.
7 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I need to intervene in the
9 transcript. Line 1, page 3, I said the following, [In English] "...
10 simply by orders of local commanders." [Interpretation] I said the
11 following: Were the events ordered by local commanders or were they
12 caused by some preceding similar events:
13 [In English] "But simply by orders of local commanders and that
14 things were dictated by the events themselves."
15 So it is contrary. Not by order of local commanders but by other
17 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Thank you. Please continue,
18 Mr. Karadzic.
19 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, before Dr. Karadzic begins, I note
20 again and as I said, I don't feel it's for the Prosecution to ask for
21 this because this is not our witness, but in the interests of the
22 witness, I would suggest -- in the interest of the witness and so he's
23 aware of his rights, I would suggest he be given advice pursuant to
24 Rule 90(E), and I just thought it would be better to do that before we go
25 any further.
1 MR. ROBINSON: Well, Mr. President, I think that in this instance
2 you should not give any warning. The Prosecution should ask for such a
3 warning before it's -- the testimony of the witness commences. When you
4 give it a warning in the middle of the witness's testimony or before they
5 start the cross-examination, it adds an emphasis to -- to it as if the
6 witness has some reason to worry about what his answers are going to be
7 and what his own rights are in these proceedings, and we think it's --
8 it's always out of an abundance of caution to give someone a warning
9 before they start their testimony and if the Prosecution thinks it's
10 appropriate, that's the time to do it, but if they don't do it then, as
11 far as we're concerned, it's waived and it shouldn't be given in the
12 middle of a witness's testimony. And this isn't the first time that that
13 has happened so I think you should set a hard and fast rule that if the
14 Prosecution believes such a warning is appropriate, they should ask for
15 it before the witness commences his testimony, and if they don't no
16 warning will be given.
17 JUDGE KWON: I find it a bit difficult to follow your submission,
18 Mr. Robinson. If warning is warranted, it should be given whether or not
19 it is belated.
20 MR. ROBINSON: I think it's intimidating to a witness to give him
21 a warning in the middle of his testimony about what
22 [overlapping speakers]
23 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Is a warning by the Chamber
24 something threatening the witness?
25 MR. ROBINSON: I think it indicates that the witness may have
1 reason to have concern. You don't give this to every witness. You only
2 give it to witnesses who you're being asked or told to have some reason
3 to fear self-incrimination. So when you do that in the middle of a
4 witness's testimony then you're sending a message to the witness that he
5 has some reason to fear from the answers that he gives, and we think that
6 ought to be done very cautiously.
7 MS. EDGERTON: And all this --
8 JUDGE KWON: Just --
9 MS. EDGERTON: -- is being done in the presence of the witness
10 who seems -- yes.
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes. I wanted to stop you, because the French
12 translation was still going on. Did you finish your submission,
13 Ms. Edgerton?
14 MS. EDGERTON: I didn't anticipate Mr. Robinson's submission, but
15 if this is going to go further, perhaps the witness should be asked
16 whether he understand English or to remove his headphones.
17 [Trial Chamber confers]
18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Mijatovic, I heard you saying thank you or good
19 morning in English, but do you understand English?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A couple of words, but in
21 principle, I don't understand it.
22 JUDGE KWON: Could you kindly take off your headphone for some
23 time. Thank you.
24 JUDGE BAIRD: Mr. Robinson, assuming the Chamber were to assure
25 the witness that he has nothing to -- he hasn't -- he doesn't have to
1 feel intimidated in any way by this morning, would that be able to cure
2 the situation of the late warning, would you say?
3 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, I do. I think that would be a good idea.
4 But it would also be good to set a rule in the future so that it doesn't
5 happen again.
6 THE ACCUSED: May I concerning the differences in language.
7 Today Madam Edgerton has kindly offered a better expression, to be
8 advised rather than to be warned, and I thank her for that,
9 Madam Edgerton. And also I would like if the obliged term, "obliged,"
10 which is expressed by the Chamber not to be translated "the Chamber has
11 the right to force you," but rather "to oblige you."
12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: That is the term --
15 interpreter's note: That is the term which is used in the official
16 translation of the Rules. Thank you.
17 JUDGE KWON: In the future, Mr. Tieger and Ms. Edgerton, I would
18 like you to bring that issue before witnesses take the stand and give
19 solemn declaration.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE KWON: So Gospodin Mijatovic, you can wear your head phone
22 again. We should have done that yesterday, but before you continue to
23 give evidence, I would like to draw your attention to a particular Rule
24 here at the Tribunal. Under this Rule, Rule 90(E), you may object to
25 answering a question from the Prosecution or the accused or from the
1 Judges if you believe that your answer will incriminate you. When I say
2 "incriminate," I mean that something you say may amount to an admission
3 of your guilt for a criminal offence or could provide evidence that you
4 have committed an offence. However, even if you think your answer will
5 incriminate you and you do not wish to answer the question, the Tribunal
6 has the power to compel you to answer the question, but in such a case
7 the Tribunal will make sure that your testimony compelled in such a way
8 shall not be used as evidence in other case against you for any offence
9 other than false testimony.
10 Do you understand what I have just told you?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] More or less.
12 JUDGE BAIRD: Mr. Mijatovic, I just want to add just a bit to
13 what the President has said. You must not in any way feel intimidated by
14 what the President has just told you. What he has done is to apprise you
15 of your rights as laid down by the Rules. So don't in any way feel
16 intimidated or fearful. This is very important. Do you understand this?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. I
19 JUDGE BAIRD: Mr. Robinson?
20 MR. ROBINSON: Thank you very much, Judge Baird.
21 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Good morning,
23 Your Excellencies. Good morning, everyone.
24 WITNESS: NIKOLA MIJATOVIC [Resumed]
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 Examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]
2 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Major Mijatovic.
3 A. Good morning Mr. President.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have 1D6291 in e-court.
5 Translation is pending with this one as well.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. You authored this document. Do you recall this document? Are
8 you able to identify it? It is your report to the Sarajevo-Romanija
9 Corps command?
10 A. I recall it. It is my document.
11 Q. Does it say the following, "At 8.30 and 11.00 p.m.," and in the
12 second paragraph "at 11.10 there were certain things taking place. Were
13 you always this precise when keeping track of events?
14 A. I was.
15 Q. Can you focus on the second paragraph and read it, please. There
16 is the mention of a sniper.
17 A. A sniper from Stojcevacki Siljak from the direction of Polje on
18 Nedzarici where at 11.10 he was wounded in his arm -- or the following
19 were wounded in their arm: A Govedarica born in 1973 and a shot arrived
20 from the area called government receipts a born in 1973 and a shot
21 arrived from the area called Pancirka where UNPROFOR is deployed. We did
22 not return fire except when engaging the Pancirka building and we did not
23 sustain any casualties. We have one wounded fighter.
24 Q. So who was it who fired from the Pancirka building where UNPROFOR
1 A. Well, we presumed it was the Muslim side.
2 Q. Was it something unusual that they opened fire in close proximity
3 of UNPROFOR?
4 A. It was nothing out of the ordinary. It was standard practice.
5 They fired from positions in the vicinity of UNPROFOR. They had
6 105-millimetre guns across the building from the PTT Inzinjering where
7 the UNPROFOR headquarters were. They also had positions in underground
8 parking lots in Alipasino Polje, and from there they would pull out guns
9 and opened fire on the Serb Ilidza, Rajlovac, and Lukavica. When we
10 returned fire, UNPROFOR protested to our side why we were engaging areas
11 in their proximity. When they protested, we asked them, Why do you allow
12 them to be anywhere near you? We have to respond to their fire. We
13 cannot allow our children and civilians to be killed in Ilidza, because
14 that kind of shelling usually was targeting Ilidza where the school and
15 hospital were as well as outpatient clinics and health centres. Both
16 health centres in Ilidza were destroyed as a result of such shelling.
17 This was nothing extraordinary. Quite to the contrary, this was
18 routinely happening.
19 Q. Thank you, Major.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document
21 marked for identification pending translation.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Shall we give the number.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D6291 becomes Exhibit D2511,
24 Your Honours.
25 JUDGE KWON: To be marked for identification, yes.
1 Yes, continue. Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we have 1D8566
3 next. I believe this one has a translation. I kindly ask for it not to
4 be broadcast, because there is a name mentioned in the document, your
5 Excellencies, so as not to be in breach of your tu quoque decision. We
6 won't tender this document because it contains information of rapes of
7 Serb women. Rather, we will ask the major to read out a sentence for us.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Major, is it correct that this man, the Muslim fighter whose name
10 is mentioned in the document, was in contact with you and finally
11 defected to the Serb side?
12 A. That is correct, Mr. President.
13 Q. Thank you. If we look at the end of paragraph 3, but do not
14 mention his name.
15 A. That person, between November of 1992 and December 1993, as a
16 fighter of the so-called Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, used a hand-held
17 mortar and an automatic rifle in the theatre of war around Sarajevo
18 having killed 13 soldiers of the VRS and a guard at Elektroprivreda and
19 Bristol. He also killed two Serb civilians across the Miljacka River.
20 Q. What is this Bristol?
21 A. It's a hotel, the Bristol Hotel in Novo Sarajevo, facing
23 Q. Thank you.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If the portion read out for the
25 transcript suffices, I seek to tender it. Otherwise, it is up to you to
2 JUDGE KWON: I don't see the need on your part to tender it as
3 you indicated.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Now I would like to
5 show four brief video-clips from --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Five, interpreter's correction.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That I received late last night.
8 Some of them we haven't had the time to translate, and for the three of
9 these video-clips we have received translation from the Prosecution, but
10 for the other two we haven't. So I would appreciate being -- if we could
11 show 1D468 -- 6480. Could we play this video-clip from 2 minutes
12 14 seconds; from the beginning up until 2 minutes and 14 seconds. And I
13 believe that's the longest video-clip.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We do not have the exact
15 reference of where this video-clip is in the transcript.
16 JUDGE KWON: Before you play, Mr. Karadzic, I just received a
17 note from the interpreters that they do not have the exact reference.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. Well, for the first two we
19 haven't received the translation, and we haven't managed to provide it
20 ourselves. That's for the first two. And for the other three, we have
21 them. So I would appreciate the --
22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, in cases where we do not have the
23 transcription, we know that we have difficulty hearing the translations.
24 So why don't we start with those portions with transcript. Let's see how
25 we can get on.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. In that case could we
2 have 6482, please. From 7 minutes 13 seconds up until 8 minutes and
3 42 seconds. 7.13.
4 [Video-clip played]
5 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Europe is becoming more aware of
6 the fact that the real threat to its democracy, justice and freedom is
7 coming from the jihad which has been waged in this region for four years
8 now with its main protagonists being real war criminals and bloodthirsty
9 beasts like Izetbegovic, Ganic, Silajdzic, Delic, who have emerged from a
10 fundamentalist marriage, imposing unseen terror causing more than 15.000
11 Serbs to become victims only in the part of Sarajevo that is under
12 Turkish converts. They have lived through horrific atrocities
13 originating from the clouded minds of Juka Prazina, Bajramovic, Delic,
14 Dedic, and other fundamentalist criminals, all upon orders of the
15 monsters most responsible from the former Bosnia and Herzegovina. To
16 this day, screams can be heard in their prisons, especially in the
17 notorious Tarcin concentration camp and a number of prisons in Sarajevo,
18 Tuzla, Konjic, Visoko, and Zenica, all the while they have their mouths
19 full of lies about multi-ethnic, multi-religious Bosnia and the
20 democratic order of their Bosnia."
21 Interpreter's note: The last portion was missing.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. This suffices.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Major, sir, where did you get this bit of information that over
25 15.000 Serbs were victims in Sarajevo, and does this mean that they were
1 killed or were they victims in other ways too?
2 A. The information that we had at our disposal came from witness
3 statements, witnesses who fled Sarajevo and crossed over to our
4 territory, and this is information that intelligence services, both
5 military and civilian, gathered on the ground. And, Mr. President, this
6 will later be confirmed as true, but if you would like me to give a full
7 answer to your question, I would have to elaborate a bit.
8 Well, first what I said is that it became clear to everyone, and
9 up until now there was a deliberate cover-up --
10 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Mijatovic, I think you have answered the
11 question. I'm struggling to understand the relevance of this part to
12 your case. It may relate to the credibility. Please continue, yes.
13 We'll see. We'll find -- we'll find out at the end of this part of the
14 answer. We'll deal with the admission.
15 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
16 MS. EDGERTON: I'm really sorry, Your Honour, but we have no
17 LiveNote on this side of the courtroom, any of us. I don't know if
18 anybody else is similarly affected or afflicted.
19 JUDGE KWON: I don't see any problem from the Bench.
20 Mr. Robinson?
21 MR. ROBINSON: Ours is working.
22 JUDGE KWON: I take it the Registrar will arrange something for
23 you, Ms. Edgerton.
24 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Then I won't ask you where you got the information that Prazina,
3 Bajramovic, Celo and others were criminals, but let me just ask this:
4 What you stated at this rally and what was happening there, what kind of
5 impact did this have on the morale among the civilians and military on
7 A. Well, it certainly had an impact.
8 Q. What kind of impact? What were the effects?
9 A. Well, people understood, and this was just another confirmation,
10 that their superhuman fight, struggle, in Serbian Ilidza was justified.
11 Mr. President, when I say superhuman struggle let me explain it this way:
12 The Serbian Ilidza and the people who attended this rally fought the
13 entire war with an enemy that was six times stronger than it was. The
14 Serb Ilidza had the largest number of casualties or killed people in --
15 of all other Serbian municipalities. It had 932 killed people, about 500
16 dead civilians, and the effect was -- and the reason was -- the
17 consequences was that the Ilidza Brigade had four brigades on other side.
18 The enemy had four brigades, the 104th, 105th, 102nd and 104th
19 [as interpreted]. And let me just give you some information on one of
20 these brigades. The 104th Brigade had five heavy armoured personnel
21 carriers. It had five combat vehicles. It had five 152-howitzers. It
22 had five 105-millimetre howitzer. It had ten recoilless guns. All the
23 fighters had automatic weapons.
24 In other words, the Serbian Ilidza suffered the biggest losses of
25 all municipalities, both among the ranks and among civilians. And as a
1 result, although people knew throughout the war what the enemy had as its
2 intention, their intention was to cut through Serbian Ilidza and link up
3 with the Muslim forces in Central Bosnia, which would then make our
4 position far heavier, because there would be a hundred thousand so-called
5 members of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina who then be operational and
6 could be active throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina and to be far deadlier
7 and engage all the front lines where the Serbian people and the Serbian
8 fighters were.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see 1D6483, please.
11 From 8 minutes 44 to 9 minutes 07.
12 [Video-clip played]
13 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Today the entire world knows that
14 when Alija Izetbegovic was trying to justify to his associates the
15 reasons why he had ordered the massacre against his people in the
16 Vase Miskina Street and Markale I and II, he responded that the Koran had
17 obliged them to do it, that no price was too high when it came to the
18 Islamic goal."
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. And in relation to this, the incidents that you mentioned, that
22 you said were caused by the Muslim side, did the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps
23 investigate whether this was committed by someone on the Serb side and
24 what basis did you have for this claim that this was actually perpetrated
25 by them?
1 A. Well, the base for my claim is very specific, Mr. President. I
2 was fortunate to come by information, and because I hadn't had much time,
3 I didn't have a chance to present them to the Defence, but I will tell
4 you about it now so that you can see what I'm talking about.
5 One day military police came to the command and reported that
6 there was a man who had crossed over from Sarajevo to our side and who
7 wanted to talk to me. I asked him what his name was, and he said -- may
8 I mention his name, first and last, or do we have to move to private
9 session for his security, for his safety?
10 Q. Well, better skip his name, if you can. But if necessary, we can
11 ask to have -- to get the name from you.
12 A. Well, there is this video-clip, and it was broadcast on the
13 Radio Television of Republika Srpska during the war. This man was the
14 son of a late friend of mine. This late friend of mine was, I believe, a
15 Croat, but believe me, I'm not really sure, because we never asked who
16 was of what ethnicity. We were -- although we worked for 15 years, I had
17 no idea, and I'm not even sure to this day. And the name -- his first
18 and last name frequently appears both in the Serbian and the Croatian
19 people. So I never asked him what ethnicity he was. All I wanted -- all
20 I cared about was that someone was a good human being.
21 Now, his mother was Muslim. I knew that. And when late Pero
22 died - and I can use this name because it's very frequent - at the time I
23 was one of the directors in Feroelektro and I would go and speak at
24 funerals, and as you recall, there were both religious rites and civilian
25 rites, and what we would do at funerals, we would go and ask them what
1 type of rites they wanted.
2 So anyway, I went and -- to this funeral and spoke there, and
3 this young man, he remembered that. So he risked his life later on, went
4 through a minefield and came to see me, and he said to me, Well, you
5 know, I remember you very well from the funeral. My father said you were
6 a good man. You spoke so well. So I came to talk to you. Now, I knew
7 that he had come from a very difficult place, that there were a lot of
8 people of different ethnicity there, that it was very difficult to
9 survive, and he risked his life, came through the minefield. And I asked
10 him what I could do for him, and he said, Well, I would like to go to
11 Belgrade. I have a friend there. And if I don't manage to get a job
12 there, I would like to move on from there to one of the European
13 countries. So if you could help me with this.
14 Now, to make you understand what the atmosphere was, I offered
15 him coffee and something to eat at the time, and I told him --
16 Q. [No interpretation]
17 A. [No interpretation]
18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Mijatovic, could you slow down in your speaking.
19 And put a pause, Mr. Karadzic. I'm not sure the interpretation has been
20 concluded. We had the interpretation until the part where you said:
21 "Now, to make you understand what the atmosphere was, I offered
22 him coffee and something to eat at the time ..."
23 Is that all that you said, or did you say --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I offered him coffee and food.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's all.
3 JUDGE KWON: Please continue.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Could you please tell us what was the content of the information
6 that you received?
7 A. Well, he told me -- well, I asked him, What did you do all this
8 time there? As far as I can recall, it would have been two years that
9 had passed since the beginning of the war, so approximately it was at
10 that time. So I asked him, What have you done all this time and how did
11 you manage? And he said, Well, I am an audio technician, and I worked
12 on -- at Radio Sarajevo, and on the day of the diversion at
13 Vase Miskina Street when we arrived at work sometime before 7.00, we were
14 sent to the --
15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not get the location.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Vecna Vatra. Now, that is close to
17 Vase Miskina Street. He said I went there with a colleague of mine, a
18 journalist, and we waited there. It was rather cold. We were rather
19 nervous, and we agreed that I should go because the electroshop was there
20 and I recall even now that the manager of that shop was Avdo. Now I
21 asked him if I could use his phone to call from there because there were
22 no mobile phones at the time, so I called from that shop and I called the
23 editor of the radio station and asked him, How long are we supposed to
24 stay here and what are we waiting for, because there is no rally, there's
25 nothing going on, there is no one showing up, so what are we doing here?
1 We are just freezing. And this man answered to him, Well, just stay
2 there. It will happen very soon, and so don't protest too much. And if
3 you protest, there are lines for people like you. Now let me explain
4 what lines are, that's front lines where the fighting was.
5 I went up to my friend at Vecna Vatra and told him what the
6 answer of the editor was and at that point in time we heard the blast,
7 the sound of the blast and then we realised so this was our task that's
8 why we were there. We were supposed to be there on site so that we could
9 report immediately on what was going on, the suffering and the screams of
10 the people on the bread line. So this is what we learned about
11 Vase Miskina Street that incident.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Thank you. Now, do you know that the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps
14 after these incidents or, rather, do you know whether they had
15 investigated this in order to establish whether it was perpetrated by the
16 Serb side?
17 A. Well, yes. And because of this propaganda of the enemy side
18 where they would always blame all the suffering on the Serbs both their
19 leadership and the public officials, they would always accuse the Serb
20 side of these things and blame it on the Serb side. And so in order to
21 make sure and be absolutely certain of what was happening you had to
22 conduct an investigation. So that's why it was conducted. And there was
23 absolutely no doubt whatsoever that it hadn't been done by the Serb side.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have the third video-clip
1 now. That's 6484 from 9 minutes 18 to 9 minutes 45.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] For this brief period of time and
4 it was November 1995 when honourable and courageous journalists finally
5 decided to visit Serb Sarajevo. They saw our mothers in mourning, our
6 cemeteries, our destroyed and burned homes, our crippled children,
7 realising how shamelessly manipulated they had been up to then by Turkish
8 converts and their media."
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us what this means that it was only in
11 November that journalists started coming to see you to find out the
13 A. In principle, the truth about the suffering of the Serb people,
14 Mr. President, had a very difficult path to traverse as is the case
15 today, Mr. President. What happened to the Serb people, these crimes
16 committed against us, preparations were carried out a lot before that,
17 before 1992. I'm just going to tell this distinguished Court and this
18 distinguished gathering.
19 It is indispensable for me to say the following as far as
20 suffering is concerned: Gentlemen, the brigade that I commanded, over
21 those four years lost over 460 fighters; 2.150 were wounded in my
22 brigade, which is highly characteristic. Judge, please, may I just
23 finish. I'm finishing right now. I'm saying --
24 JUDGE KWON: Could you try to answer the question. The question
25 was not about the sufferings themselves but why it was only in November
1 that journalists started coming to see you to find out the truth. Could
2 you answer the question.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I've already said that these
4 people who had intended for the Serb people to suffer and to be
5 destroyed, well, there's a very strong link there because they were on
6 orders to by-pass us and therefore the truth could not reach the rest of
7 the world.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Thank you. These journalists and crews that were in Sarajevo,
10 CNN, BBC, et cetera, did they go to Ilidza? Did they cross over? Did
11 they go to check the information they received?
12 A. Well, rather, one would have to say no, although there were
13 exceptions, truth to tell, but then they would also distort things. When
14 they'd get in contact with us, they would try to persuade us that they
15 had sent accurate reports as to what was happening on the ground and that
16 it was only in their newspaper and TV offices that the news were further
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 6480, please. Could we please have
19 that now, these two clips that do not have a translation. Two minutes
20 and half a minute. They are highly important for us and relevant.
21 JUDGE KWON: Do you have any objection, Ms. Edgerton, or
23 MS. EDGERTON: I don't quite know what to say, Your Honours.
24 This is something he only received last evening, after all. I'm sorry I
25 can't offer anything further.
1 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Let's see. Let us see how we got on
2 with it.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] From the beginning, so 6480, 1D6480
4 from the beginning until 2:14.
5 [Video-clip played]
6 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, there's no point. We don't get any
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I kindly ask the booth to
9 interpret as they interpret simultaneously when we are speaking.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: It is too fast for
11 simultaneous interpretation and we have not been provided with a
12 transcript of what is being said in the original either, let alone the
14 JUDGE KWON: Your legal advisors heard the interpretation.
15 Consult with them how to proceed.
16 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, is it possible to play a small
17 portion of the recording, stop it and then continue it so that the
18 interpretation can be effected?
19 JUDGE KWON: Why don't we pause here and let's deal with the
20 three portions we've heard so far, then that may shed a light how to
21 proceed. I take it you are tendering those three portions.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 JUDGE KWON: And can I hear from you, Ms. Edgerton, about those
24 three portions we have heard.
25 MS. EDGERTON: No objection to the three portions, Your Honour,
1 and in fact, I propose to use further portion during the
2 cross-examination. So it may be a matter that Your Honours -- where
3 Your Honours might want to deal with the whole video that these are drawn
4 from at the end of things.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes. The Chamber has some difficulty in -- in
6 relation to certain parts of the -- the portions, in particular with
7 respect to their relevance, but if you are going to use some part of it
8 for whatever use -- I will consult my colleagues.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE KWON: We deal with the admissibility of these portions at
11 the end of this witness's evidence.
12 I have to ask interpreters whether the suggestion made by the
13 Defence is feasible.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We believe not. It is too
15 fast, and it would require consecutive interpretation, which is quite
17 [Defence counsel confer]
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
19 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. I think the thing to do would
20 be to try to take it -- make a transcript of this over the weekend and
21 play this portion with the witness on Monday if -- if it's important
22 enough for Dr. Karadzic to believe it's important enough to make the
23 witness stay, I think that's the best solution.
24 JUDGE KWON: Can he not elicit evidence from the witness without
25 having to rely on this video?
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, could we do this? I
2 mean it's not very long. It's two and a half minutes, 2 minutes,
3 40 seconds. Could we play it for the witness and then put questions to
4 him and we are going to deal with admissibility and the translation
5 later. So it would be for the witness to know what he is affirming or
7 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton, if we the Chamber or the -- if the
8 Chamber nor the Prosecution is not able to follow what he said in this
9 transcript what's the point of playing this at all?
10 MS. EDGERTON: Well, that's what I was about to say. I don't
11 know at all what's in the non-transcribed versions, and it's really just
12 another way of leading the witness. So it would seem to me if
13 Dr. Karadzic has information from this that he wishes to -- or based on
14 this that he wishes to adduce to the witness he can put that to the
15 witness and have him affirm it now.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'm sorry that I have to say
17 this, that we received this exhibit that was there to begin with, if we
18 had received it on time, we would have translated all of it as the OTP
19 had translated everything that they were interested in. Fifteen
20 minutes -- 15 minutes was enough to have all of that translated. I'm not
21 criticising Madam Edgerton. It was somebody else who omitted to do this.
22 JUDGE KWON: If you find it very important, I heard the French
23 booth translated a bit, so we can repeat how many minutes it may take.
24 Let's try it. It's your time. It's up to you how to use your time. So
25 we'll try -- we can play many times and that's with the indulgence of the
1 translators. We can give it a try.
2 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
3 MS. EDGERTON: And just to make -- to be perfectly clear, this
4 was not there, nor was it in our possession, and we went actually to some
5 pretty extraordinary efforts to get this to the Defence counsel as
6 soon -- as soon as we received it, and that was -- and were able to have
7 access to the video and that was last evening.
8 JUDGE KWON: So we'll play first so the interpreters could hear
9 the general context and try again.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: That cannot be a full
11 accurate interpretation of the entire video.
12 JUDGE KWON: It should be -- we understand. Let's play it first.
13 [Video-clip played]
14 JUDGE KWON: How long do we need? Do you need all these
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The first one is only 2:14, and the
17 other one is 30 seconds, and the first one is 2 minutes, 14 seconds, or,
18 actually, can we stop here and then I can put questions to the major.
19 JUDGE KWON: We didn't hear the interpretation.
20 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
21 MS. EDGERTON: Well, that's kind of the thing. We didn't hear
22 any interpretation, and I know my colleagues are very professional in
23 this and do their best, and to keep playing this like this is really
24 almost kind of effectively leading the witness.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I think what we have here are
1 the witness's words.
2 JUDGE KWON: No. Let us stop here, and if necessary, you call
3 the witness again next week -- be it next week or a month away. I think
4 that's the most efficient way at the moment.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. May I just put a
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Is it correct that 800 shells fell in the civilian zone and that
9 six women were wounded?
10 JUDGE KWON: Leading. Leading question, Mr. Karadzic. But could
11 you ask when he interviewed this and when he made this speech, on what
12 occasion or -- those things.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. That speech, those first three that we played, when was that held
15 and under what conditions?
16 A. Mr. President, this speech was made at a rally after Dayton,
17 after the Dayton agreement. That is to say after the
18 21st of November, 1995, in Luzani. I think that that would be an answer
19 to your question, a specific answer to your question.
20 Q. Thank you. This settlement was defended, but you had to leave it
21 after Dayton?
22 A. It was defended like ten other municipalities of the Serb
23 Sarajevo, but we had to leave it, unfortunately, on the basis of the
24 decision reached in Dayton, all of these settlements and all of this,
25 also all of western Ilidza that we defended with our own blood. And I
1 think it would only be proper for me to speak about this in memory of
2 these people, the Serb municipality of Ilidza sustained the greatest
3 losses in that previous war in -- out of all of Republika Srpska I think
4 that if you look at all of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Ilidza had the highest
5 number of losses including military losses and civilians losses. Please
6 do not doubt this. Thirty-five mortars only, and also I mentioned the
7 howitzers and other weapons a moment ago. One of the brigades opposite
8 us, the 104th, had that, the one attacking from Sokolovic Kolonija,
9 Butmir and Hrasnica. So they had 70 artillery pieces and weapons. This
10 is 50 shells. That's already 700 shells.
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Witness. I'm sorry about these two video-clips.
12 Probably we are going to call again when we have the translation. I just
13 wanted to ask you about the shelling of the waterworks -- or, rather,
14 electricity facilities. However, we'll do that when we receive the
15 translation. We'll do it later. Thank you. We have no further
17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Has this been admitted, these
19 three, these three where we had this translation?
20 JUDGE KWON: I told you we would deal with it after his evidence
21 is over in its entirety, after seeing the portion the Prosecution is
22 going to use, if any.
23 MS. EDGERTON: What time do Your Honours anticipate the first
24 break this morning?
25 JUDGE KWON: 12.30.
1 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
2 Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:
3 Q. Good morning, Mr. Mijatovic.
4 A. Good morning.
5 Q. Just in relation to the evidence that you gave to Dr. Karadzic
6 during your examination-in-chief, I wonder if you could tell us actually
7 the name of the military policeman who crossed to your side from Sarajevo
8 and gave you the information about the bread line shelling that you
10 A. I did not say that. That is a misinterpretation, very poor
11 interpretation. On the contrary, he was an audio technician in
20 Q. Now, also in your statement, you referred actually to receiving
21 information from, among other things, commanding officers of the BiH Army
22 who collaborated with you. Who were they? What were their names?
23 A. Well, I have to tell you this: I think that your question is
24 misplaced. Tell me anyone in the world who would tell on someone who had
25 provided him with information so that the next day that person could get
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If -- if it may assist, perhaps the
3 witness could say this in closed session so that it remains under seal.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sorry, Mr. President. No one ever
5 says anything like that. And ultimately when I said "we," that means --
6 I mean, look, this information -- I mean, let me respond to
7 Madam Prosecutor.
8 You probably know this even without me telling you, but let me
9 remind you: There was always a two-way street as far as information was
10 concerned, communication between the headquarters and the brigades and
11 thereby battalions as well. Do you understand what I'm saying? So in
12 the battalion we gathered certain information, then they sent it to us at
13 the brigade commands and then we forwarded that information to the corps
14 command and then that is only logical in any army of the world. So that
15 means that -- I mean, when we had this information that was coming from
16 up and down, in this information our superiors had these people who
17 collaborated with them, because that confirm -- that was confirmed to me
18 several times. An attack would sort of take place at such and such a
19 place. So it is not that this was this well-known sorceress that was
20 trying to foretell what would happen. It was based on intelligence. It
21 was -- yes?
22 JUDGE KWON: Pausing there, could we move into private session
24 [Private session]
11 Pages 30717-30721 redacted. Private session.
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
5 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
6 Q. Now, Mr. Mijatovic, today in the transcript you talked and made
7 some mention about weapons held by the forces of the Army of Bosnia and
8 Herzegovina that were facing you, and I just want to ask you on the other
9 side because you haven't mentioned it to confirm some of the weapons held
10 by your brigade, the Ilidza Brigade. Can you confirm that your brigade
11 had three T-55 tanks?
12 A. I can.
13 Q. Can you confirm that your brigade, at least in 1993, had a total
14 of 30 sniper rifles?
15 A. I think we did not have a single one, at least I wasn't aware of
16 any, and I can only tell you what I know. Why do I say that? We didn't
17 need sniper rifles, Madam Prosecutor. The separation lines were de facto
18 useless. The demarcation line was on Ilidza, and we were only separated
19 by a street, that is to say the width of 10 to 12 metres. Anyone knows
20 that in such a situation a sniper rifle is less reliable than a simple
21 sidearm that you can use to shoot at someone across the street.
22 Q. Thank you. Maybe we could, given your answer, have a look at a
23 document, 65 ter 23830. It's -- and while that's being called up, could
24 I just ask you to confirm that Vladimir Radojcic was one of the
25 commanders of the Ilidza Brigade? Can you confirm that?
1 A. I see a document, but there's no signature by the colonel -- or
2 lieutenant-colonel, sorry.
3 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, I'm really very sorry, but it seems
4 like now I've completely lost -- or we've completely lost any ability to
5 see the documents in e-court.
6 JUDGE KWON: Could we change from Sanction to e-court.
7 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The booths cannot see it
9 either. Now we can see it.
10 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
11 Q. You see the document on the screen in front of you, and it has
12 the name Vladimir Radojcic at the bottom. Vladimir Radojcic in 1993,
13 1994, and 1995 --
14 A. I can see that.
15 Q. -- was the Ilidza Brigade commander; correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now this document dated 29 October 1993 responds to something
18 from the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command reporting that the brigade has a
19 total of 30 sniper rifles, M-76 and M-48, one silencer and one passive
20 infrared device. So, actually, your knowledge as to what the brigade had
21 in terms of sniper rifles seems to be incorrect.
22 A. I can see what it says here. Let me tell you this: On the
23 31st of October, I wasn't in the brigade that day, and I was in no
24 position to see anything. Why? Because as it happened, the 31st
25 of October is the holiday of Saint Lucas, which is the patron saint of my
1 family and mine. If there were any possibilities for that, we did our
2 best to be at home that day, to be with our family. The same goes for
3 Christmas and the most important holidays. The 31st of October is the
4 day when I was definitely not in a position to see this document. That
5 is why I told you that I am personally unaware of it.
6 Q. But then you don't dispute that -- the accuracy of this document,
7 do you?
8 A. I cannot deny this. I am in no position to either confirm or
10 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. Could that be a Prosecution exhibit,
11 please, Your Honours.
12 MR. ROBINSON: It's okay, yes.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll admit it.
14 THE REGISTRAR: The number would be P6014, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE KWON: It's about time to take a break, but given that
16 we'll be concluding a bit earlier than usual, I'm asking the parties
17 about taking just half an hour break for today.
18 MS. EDGERTON: That's completely fine with me, Your Honour.
19 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, we'd like that. Thank you.
20 JUDGE KWON: How about the interpreters?
21 THE INTERPRETER: That is fine, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE KWON: I take it that's fine with the court reporter.
23 Thank you. We'll have a break for 30 minutes and resume at 5 past 1.00.
24 --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 1.07 p.m.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
2 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President. I was wondering if I
3 might raise a very small scheduling issue very quickly, or I can do it at
4 the end of the session, as the Court wishes. I just wanted to note that.
5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Let's do that at the end of the session.
6 And as regards the debate we had in private session, I was of the opinion
7 that we can lift the confidentiality of the transcript from line 3 on
8 page 31, but if the parties have a different opinion, please let me know
9 before the end of today's session.
10 Yes, Ms. Edgerton. Please continue.
11 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
12 Q. Now, Mr. Mijatovic, we were on the subject of weapons held by
13 your brigade, and we just finished talking about sniper rifles. Do you
14 also agree that your brigade had howitzers in its possession?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. 105 and 155 millimetre?
17 A. As for 155s, I don't think we had any, but we definitely did have
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpret's note: Could the witness approach
20 the microphone. We cannot hear him.
21 MS. EDGERTON:
22 Q. Mr. Mijatovic, the interpreters have asked if you could just
23 slide in a little more so you're closer to the microphone so the
24 interpreters can hear you.
25 A. That's fine.
1 Q. And 120-millimetre mortars?
2 A. We did.
3 Q. 76-millimetre guns?
4 A. We did.
5 Q. Let's just talk quickly about the numbers of each. How many
7 A. I know there were two as far as I recall. We had two 105s; we
8 had one ZiS, the recoilless gun; we had three tanks; three APCs; we had
9 several pieces of 122-millimetre [as interpreted] mortars and
10 62-millimetre mortars and 82-millimetre mortars.
11 Q. How many is several? Do you remember?
12 A. Definitely more than two 110-millimetre pieces [as interpreted].
13 Well, I'm not sure about the rest. I'm trying to recall. I didn't think
14 about that much. As for 82-millimetre pieces, we had at least seven or
15 eight. 60-millimetre pieces there were four or five. The number of
16 armoured vehicles, I believe I have shared that with you already. One
17 ZiS, which is 186-millimetre [as interpreted] gun. We had one.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It seems that some of the figures
19 in the transcript are wrong. It is not "186" but "76," and the mortar is
20 "120" rather than "122." The 122 piece is a different artillery piece.
21 Perhaps that can be clarified later in the transcript.
22 JUDGE KWON: Do you confirm that, Mr. Mijatovic?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do. I've never heard of
24 176-millimetre calibre. The ZiS, as it was called, was an old -- which
25 was an old kind of weapon was called Jarac [phoen] in the previous war.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Line 11, "110 millimetres," several
2 pieces, whereas it should have been mortar 120 millimetres.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no calibre 110. There is
4 only the 100 and --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down when citing
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no 110. I can see it on
8 the screen as well.
9 MS. EDGERTON:
10 Q. Thank you. Now, in your evidence today you talked about how
11 Bosnian forces fired from UNPROFOR and pulled out guns from underground
12 parking lots in Alipasino Polje and you returned fire. Now, you lived in
13 Alipasino Polje yourself for a period of time; correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And you would agree with me that it's a densely populated
16 residential area with low and very high-rise apartment buildings;
18 A. Alipasino Polje mainly had high-rise buildings.
19 Q. Where civilians lived; correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you marked in one of the associated exhibits with your
22 statement a map with military targets, D2499, and those were all in and
23 around the area where you used to live, weren't they?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. So your evidence is that you fired at these objects that are
1 listed in paragraph 9, which are found within densely populated
2 residential area.
3 A. As it was interpreted to me, we fired at objects. When you say
4 an object in our language, one usually pictures a family house or an
5 apartment building. We never fired at such buildings where civilians
6 lived, because we had our orders, strict orders that we abided by. We
7 also abided by the international laws of war and the Geneva Conventions.
8 We never opened fire like that. I don't know if you --
9 Q. So --
10 A. You said objects.
11 Q. Mr. Mijatovic --
12 A. We never fired at objects where civilians lived.
13 Q. My question was related to the military targets you listed in
14 paragraph 9, and my question was you fired at these objects which you had
15 just agreed were in a residential area; correct?
16 A. We only engaged combat targets. We never engaged apartment
17 buildings or areas where there were civilians. That is out of the
18 question. So my answer was very clear. We only engaged targets from
19 where fire was opened against us. So we engaged targets that targeted
20 us, that killed us, only those targets on the other side, fire targets,
21 combat targets from which fire was opened on us.
22 Q. So --
23 A. And those are legitimate targets, you have to admit.
24 Q. Well, let's talk about this a little bit more. These targets
25 were in areas where civilians lived. So it's reasonable to expect
1 civilians to be in the immediate area of these targets; correct?
2 A. It is even more reasonable to expect a warring party, in other
3 words, the enemy side, not to open fire from civilian areas, because that
4 other side, the opposing side, will open fire on our targets and then
5 they expect that we would return fire.
6 Q. And you did.
7 A. I beg your -- we only engaged combat targets. In other words, we
8 returned fire. We only returned fire.
9 Q. Fire on --
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In the previous reply, it did not
11 make into the transcript the words of the witness who said that they
12 sowed death amongst our ranks, and this is not something that made it
13 into the transcript.
14 JUDGE KWON: Do you confirm that, Mr. Mijatovic?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What the President said, yes.
16 JUDGE KWON: And as you have noted, if you speak so fast, your
17 words will be -- some part of your answer will -- will miss the
18 interpretation. Could you speak slowly as much as possible.
19 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
20 MS. EDGERTON:
21 Q. So let's go back to the question. You've given evidence today
22 that you returned fire on what you found to be military targets in areas
23 where civilians lived; correct?
24 A. No, no. I was very clear in my answer. We returned -- you say
25 fire, but we returned fire in response to fire, and we opened fire on
1 those areas from which fire was opened against us and killed our people,
2 our women, our men, because there was no other way of stopping the
3 killing. For instance, in the area where I was, in the Serbian Ilidza,
4 unless you returned fire there was no other way. You could not just
5 plead with someone, please don't open fire anymore. You killed 20 of my
6 men today. So you had to reply. You had to respond to the fire.
7 Q. For I think the fourth time now: You responded to the fire which
8 came from areas where civilians lived; correct?
9 A. To be --
10 Q. Mr. Mijatovic --
11 A. -- specific --
12 Q. -- this is a yes or no answer.
13 A. -- you on the map --
14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter is not sure what the first word
15 that the witness said was.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My -- my definitive answer is we
17 did not open fire on areas where there were civilians. We only opened
18 fire and engaged targets from which fire was sowed against us. We never
19 fired at areas where there were civilians.
20 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for a moment, Your Honour.
21 Q. Now, Mr. Mijatovic, at, I think, page 15 of today's evidence you
22 talked about how you returned fire when Bosnian forces pulled out guns
23 from underground parking lots in Alipasino Polje, and then at page 40,
24 you said you agreed that Alipasino Polje had mainly high-rise buildings
25 where civilians lived; correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What did you return fire with, your mortars and artillery?
3 A. Well, more often than not mortars, small-calibre mortars, but
4 it's very important to say at this point, Madam Prosecutor, that
5 Alipasino Polje as a settlement in Sarajevo is a part where between
6 buildings there are areas of over 200 metres of open space, and the
7 Muslims would then use 155-millimetre howitzers, to place them there, and
8 UNPROFOR warned them not to do that, because in that way they would risk
9 being targeted, and I believe this is some seven -- this happened, for
10 instance, in areas where there were 70 to 100 metres from --
11 Q. [Overlapping speakers]
12 A. -- where the UNPROFOR was --
13 Q. [Overlapping speakers]
14 A. -- and also from between these buildings where --
15 Q. Let's stick with the questions; all right? You said you returned
16 fire with mortars. Would you agree with me that mortars are
17 antipersonnel weapons?
18 A. Well, yes, in principle.
19 Q. Now, let's look at a number of the targets that you listed here.
20 One of them is a police building. What kind of damage do you think a
21 small-calibre mortar would do to a building?
22 A. Well, a police station is a wartime military unit practically,
23 because the armed forces consist of the military and --
24 Q. [Overlapping speakers]
25 A. -- the police.
1 Q. You're not answering my question.
2 A. That is very clear. What do you mean I'm not answer your
3 question? If it is part of the enemy forces, if the police is part of
4 the enemy forces, if it is taken out onto the front line, if they open
5 fire if they themselves have mortars, for instance, that's very clear
6 that that, too, would be a legitimate target, so the police building
7 would be a legitimate military target --
8 Q. Let's go back --
9 A. -- because it too is engaged in combat.
10 Q. Let's go back to the question. I'm going to keep interrupting
11 you so long as you don't answer the question, Mr. Mijatovic. Would you
12 agree with me that a small-calibre mortar fired at a building is not
13 going to do any significant damage?
14 A. Well, I agree with you, but I don't know -- I don't understand
15 the question. That's the problem. I'm saying I don't exclude that
16 possibility. There were instances where we opened fire on the police
17 station. I don't know why you're giving this particular example, but I
18 assume that -- the assumption is that the police force is part of the
19 armed forces, and in this case the police officers would come to the
20 front line and open fire --
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to intervene here. The
22 witness said I can't recall that we opened fire, that we used
23 60-millimetre calibres to open fire on the police station, and I believe
24 this is hypothetical. The witness is asked to guess. The witness said I
25 can't recall that we opened fire from 60-millimetre weapons, and so how
1 could he know what kind of damage would be incurred on the building?
2 JUDGE KWON: The question was not whether police building was a
3 legitimate target or not.
4 Could you hear the -- listen to the question and answer -- answer
5 it, please.
6 Please continue, Ms. Edgerton.
7 MS. EDGERTON:
8 Q. So the question was whether you would agree with me that a
9 small-calibre mortar fired at a building isn't going to do any
10 significant damage.
11 A. Well, Mr. President had a good remark. This is a hypothetical
12 question, and, yes, it wouldn't cause a lot of damage. That is not at
14 JUDGE KWON: Let's find out --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's not contestable.
16 JUDGE KWON: -- whether VRS shelled or fired upon these targets
17 listed in para 9 only in response or they fired shells on these. As far
18 as these legitimate targets are concerned, they fired on its own
19 initiative, and they fired only with mortars or something else. Then we
20 can proceed.
21 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
22 Q. So is it your evidence, then, from your statement, Mr. Mijatovic,
23 that your forces fired at the locations listed in paragraph 9?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown the
25 statement in the Serbian language? If he don't have it, I have a copy
2 MS. EDGERTON: Could I --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have it.
4 MS. EDGERTON: List those locations. Thank you.
5 Q. Now, you've given evidence --
6 JUDGE KWON: Shall we upload 1D8564. Yes, please continue,
7 Ms. Edgerton.
8 MS. EDGERTON:
9 Q. So it's your evidence that your forces shelled the police
10 building, the Jusuf Dzonlic Barracks, the TAM spare parts warehouse,
11 underground shelters in the area of Medjunarodnog Prijateljstva square
12 near the PTT, the Gras garages near the geodesic institute, the wire
13 factory --
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's not correct. Can we have a
15 reference? Where is it that the witness said that they opened fire at
16 this? This paragraph, paragraph 9, relates to the identification of
17 targets, not areas where they opened fire at.
18 MS. EDGERTON: Could I just get to the --
19 JUDGE KWON: No, target maybe means they fired at it and then the
20 Prosecution is fairly, legitimate to put such questions. It is for the
21 witness to answer.
22 So do you remember this map that you marked, Mr. Mijatovic? Do
23 you see the marked map in front of you?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do, but, Mr. President --
25 JUDGE KWON: My question --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- it is not the same to open
2 fire --
3 JUDGE KWON: My question was whether you see this map. So you
4 see it.
5 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation] [Overlapping speakers]
6 JUDGE KWON: The question was -- from Ms. Edgerton was that
7 whether you opened fire at these places.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The area, that's a wider term.
9 When I -- or, rather, the Prosecutor, when she says garages, that could
10 imply underground garages, 100 or 1.000 of them. Here, specifically,
11 there's one garage in a very specific place where guns were deployed,
12 115 howitzer -- howitzers, and they opened fire from there at us.
13 JUDGE KWON: Please, listen to the question. I asked you -- what
14 Ms. Edgerton asked was whether you fired these marked places. You marked
15 the places. Do you see that?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But only when fire was opened at us
17 from those places. We didn't just open fire for no reason at all. Only
18 when there was fire opened at us from those places we responded. That's
19 specific. I can't be more specific.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Please continue, Ms. Edgerton.
21 MS. EDGERTON:
22 Q. So you opened fire -- so when you fired on these places, you
23 fired with -- your evidence is you fired with mortars and artillery, but
24 usually small-calibre mortars; correct?
25 A. Well, I never even meant -- mentioned artillery, to be more
1 specific. It could be that there were such instances, but my reply was
2 that we only returned fire when fire was opened at us. That's it.
3 Q. When you fired -- I'll ask the question a second time. When you
4 fired on these places, you fired -- your evidence is that you fired with
5 mortars, possibly with artillery, but usually with small-calibre mortars;
7 A. The places shown, I can't even remember that artillery was used,
8 but I cannot exclude it altogether. We did use mortars, and I have to
9 repeat, we only returned fire when fire was opened at us. In other
10 words, when there was fire opened from those places at us, we then
11 returned fire with fire.
12 Q. What calibre of mortars did you return the fire with?
13 A. Well, as far as I can recall, we used the 60 and the 82 calibres.
14 Q. So this -- this Chamber has actually heard evidence that mortars
15 fired at the buildings in and around Sarajevo would have little to no
16 effect because of the construction of the buildings and the size of the
17 mortars, which were either for the most part around 82 millimetres.
18 MS. EDGERTON: And for the record, Your Honours, that's
19 General Fraser at T8009 to 8010.
20 Q. So now knowing that, Mr. Mijatovic, I put it to you that at its
21 very best, this kind of fire was only harassment fire.
22 A. Well, it was not, in the final analysis, our goal to cause losses
23 among the enemy lines. It was really to harass them so that they would
24 stop opening fire at us, so that they would stop sowing death on our side
25 that we were defending.
1 Q. And you knew, because you've given evidence to this effect, that
2 there were civilians in the area. You've said that the Alipasino Polje
3 area was a civilian area; correct?
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. You've agreed that mortars are antipersonnel weapons, so given
6 that, given the risk of the spread of shrapnel when you use a mortar, and
7 given that Alipasino Polje was a civilian area, you would actually expect
8 that there was a significant risk, a high risk, that there would be
9 civilian casualties from using mortars on those areas, wouldn't you?
10 A. Well, no, because our observers who were observing and reporting
11 to us where the fire was coming from, they were in a position to see that
12 there were no civilians around the weapon that is firing shells at our
13 side and killing people on the Serb Ilidza. So observers reported to us
14 and said that within a diameter of about 200 metres everything was clear
15 except for the weapon that was firing at our side. So that was always a
16 way to avoid collateral damage that was referred to in previous trials.
17 So that was a very effective way of protecting civilians --
18 Q. All right --
19 A. -- and being sure and convinced of -- yes?
20 Q. Now, before meeting Dr. Karadzic this week, you must have met
21 with a representative of his Defence team to give the first draft of your
22 statement, didn't you?
23 A. I just had this one meeting with the gentleman who is present
24 here, Mr. Marko - he's a lawyer - Sladojevic. We just meant once and it
25 was a relatively short meeting, I can say that.
1 Q. And you didn't tell him then that you had some military observers
2 available to our brigade, did you? Yes or no?
3 A. Well, I did say that to Mr. Marko, and why it's not in the
4 record, probably because time was so short, but I did say that. He's
5 here, so let him say whether that is right or not right, because I even
6 explained to him where the observers were at several locations, and I'm
7 surprised that that didn't make it into that record or statement.
8 Because we did --
9 Q. And then --
10 A. Madam -- Madam Prosecutor, I beg your pardon. We did have our
11 observers at several locations. That's for sure.
12 Q. And then after doing the first draft of your statement, you went
13 out -- you met with Mr. Sladojevic again and you went out to the gaol and
14 you met with Dr. Karadzic, and you didn't tell him about the observers
15 then, did you? Because if you had, it would have been in your statement.
16 A. I'm sorry, but you're not right. I did say then when I was with
17 Mr. Karadzic, the President, I did say about these observers. Well, you
18 see, many things can be said. I will just tell you a detail from my
19 biography. I lived through clinical death myself. That is a major
20 thing, Madam Prosecutor, and I even omitted to mention that, and that is
21 something that is important for anyone. Do you understand that?
22 Clinical death in --
23 Q. Mr. Mijatovic --
24 A. -- in a war, in wartime. Let me just say this.
25 Q. And you just talked, you just -- you just mentioned -- actually,
1 if I could have your indulgence for a second.
2 A. I do apologise. May I just --
3 Q. No. Thank you. You just mentioned other trials in this Tribunal
4 dealing -- you just mentioned other trials in this Tribunal on --
5 actually, I'll quote it to you. You said:
6 "So reported to us," at page 50, line 12, "So reported to us and
7 said within a diameter of 200 metres everything was clear except for the
8 weapon that was firing on our side, so that was always a way to avoid
9 collateral damage that was referred to in previous trials."
10 What previous trials are you talking about?
11 A. I meant specifically when I attended as a witness at
14 Remember we talked about Poljanica before below Igman and we --
15 JUDGE KWON: We understood you and, if necessary, Mr. Karadzic
16 will take that up that issue in his re-examination, but at this moment
17 the question about a diameter of 200 metres and in what case. Please
18 continue, Ms. Edgerton.
19 MS. EDGERTON:
20 Q. Now, I'll put it to you, actually, Mr. Mijatovic, that the
21 200-metre diameter was actually not a consideration at all in --
22 MS. EDGERTON: Actually, I hesitate for a moment, Your Honour,
23 and before I misspeak, can we go back and have a redaction of page 52,
24 lines 8 and 9.
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
1 MS. EDGERTON:
2 Q. And, Mr. Witness, I put it to you that the diameter of 200 metres
3 was a consideration not dealt with in any other trial in this Tribunal
4 until the case against Generals Gotovina and Markac. That's the trial
5 you were referring to, isn't it?
6 A. Well, I had the feeling that it was mentioned in Mr. Galic's case
7 and the case of other officers. That's my feeling. I mean, these
8 200 metres. But, well, I don't see what it is that is so important here,
9 that you insist on that so much. Sorry about that. I don't understand.
10 I mean, I don't know how to put it in a different way --
11 Q. Then we'll move on.
12 A. -- I really don't see what it is you're asking me.
13 Q. Then we'll move on. Let's go further down the list of military
14 targets. In paragraphs 34 to 37 of your statement, you gave an
15 additional list of targets following your interview with Dr. Karadzic at
16 the gaol.
17 Now, did you add this list of targets in those paragraphs because
18 you fired on them?
19 A. I don't have anything before me, so I cannot see what it is that
20 you're speaking about now. I don't have anything on the screen,
21 absolutely nothing.
22 JUDGE KWON: Did you say that you have a copy of your statement?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't.
24 JUDGE KWON: In hard copy Mr. --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't have a copy of my
1 statement, and I don't have anything on these screens, so I don't have a
2 printed document, and I don't have it here, and I don't know what it is
3 that is being said.
4 JUDGE KWON: When we have our usher back, you will have a hard
5 copy of your statement.
6 THE ACCUSED: I can offer it.
7 JUDGE KWON: Let's wait.
8 MS. EDGERTON: With your indulgence in the meanwhile for a
10 [Prosecution counsel confer]
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
12 MS. EDGERTON:
13 Q. So how about, Mr. Mijatovic, you turn over to page 6 of your
14 statement and have a look at paragraphs 34 and onward. I want to know if
15 you added those targets to your statement because you fired on them.
16 A. I'm sorry, could you please repeat the question, because I don't
17 seem to understand the question.
18 Q. Did you list all these places in paragraphs 34, 35, 36, 37 of
19 your statement because your forces fired on them?
20 A. Well, I mentioned them because that's where they fired from
21 against us. I'm not saying that we fired at them. I mention here from
22 where we were attacked, from where our defence positions were attacked.
23 Q. So did you mention these places because they were suggested to
24 you during your meeting with Dr. Karadzic?
25 A. They were not suggested to me. Rather, when I said during this
1 conversation, when I spoke about all the casualties that the
2 Ilidza Brigade had had, I don't know if you were following, but it was
3 460 men who were killed, which is a high percentage.
4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the number.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 2.150 were wounded, many of them
6 seriously wounded and therefore never returned to normal life or to the
7 unit itself, and then if you look at what the enemy forces were, then I
8 explained which forces these were, the 105th, the 101st, 102nd and
9 104th Brigade and they had all these weapons and my intention was
10 obviously to indicate --
11 Q. [Overlapping speakers] [Previous translation continues] ...
12 A. -- allow me, please, Madam Prosecutor to indicate that -- which
13 brigades these were the equivalent is 15- or 16.000 men against our --
14 Q. So?
15 A. -- our 3.000 defenders who were there.
16 Q. Mr. Mijatovic, the question I asked you was did you mention these
17 places because they were suggested to you and your answer was they
18 weren't suggested to me. Can we leave it at that and move on?
19 So your evidence is you didn't fire -- your forces didn't fire at
20 any of these locations that you mention in paragraphs 34 to 37; correct?
21 A. That is not correct.
22 Q. That is not correct. So you did fire at these locations.
23 A. The locations from where these brigades fired at us. So it was
24 only firing positions and a firing position is a place from which a
25 weapon fires at us. So it was only that weapon that we opened fire at,
1 the weapon that fired at us. So that would be correct.
2 Q. All right. So these locations that you list here are in, as I
3 can see, areas that include Dobrinja, Aerodromsko Naselje, Hrasnica and
4 Butmir. You would agree with me that these are all locations where
5 civilians live, aren't they?
6 A. Civilians did not live on the actual front line. It was only
7 attackers who were there only, attackers from the enemy side, the enemy
8 that was attacking us.
9 Q. Mr. Mijatovic, is Dobrinja a civilian area; yes or no?
10 A. For the most part, yes, but civilians did not live at where the
11 lines of combat were.
12 Q. Aerodromsko Naselje is that a civilian area, yes or no?
13 A. This should be clear to you. Partly it was militarised and
14 partly it was civilian, and other settlements near the front line were of
15 the same nature. Near the front line it was military and further afield
16 it was civilian.
17 Q. Now, Hrasnica, was that a civilian area, yes or no?
18 A. To a large part, militaristic, military, and all of those parts
19 that bordered Hrasnica and other civilian areas were military but then
20 there were other areas that were civilian.
21 Q. So you when you returned fire on locations that fired on you in
22 these areas, did you do that with your mortars and artillery?
23 A. Well, most often it was small weapons that were involved in
24 combat. There were also situations when at the lines of combat, I mean
25 in these firing positions, too, because you know firing positions,
1 whatever you wish to call them, but these firing positions from where
2 fire was opened at us and we responded with fire. So we responded with
3 fire to their fire, fire coming from their weaponry.
4 Q. So is your answer that you responded with mortars and with
5 artillery or not?
6 A. Their artillery, their mortars, their fire coming from such
7 weaponry we responded with corresponding weapons and pieces.
8 Q. So --
9 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for a moment, Your Honours.
10 Q. Similar question as before. Given the nature of mortars as
11 antipersonnel weapons with a high risk of shrapnel spread from their
12 impact, do you accept there would be a high risk of civilian casualties
13 when you respond with fire in these areas we've been talking about?
14 A. I do not accept that, because we always took care of this, that
15 observers should inform us whether there were civilians around there, and
16 then we would fire at their mortars using our mortars or we would fire at
17 their artillery using our artillery.
18 Q. Well, let's try this then. So based on everything you've said up
19 to now, let me put something to you. Is it your position that it would
20 be inappropriate in Sarajevo to fire mortars or artillery at a military
21 object in a civilian area without direct observation because you've
22 talked about that and without confirmation that there were no civilians
23 within a 200-metre radius?
24 A. One could not rely on that as a rule if one is in a position
25 where the enemy uses all available forces to attack our positions and our
1 lines with the aim of taking over Ilidza and carry out a massacre by
2 killing the population or driving it away. Or, for example, what was
3 taking place? Our observers were killed by the enemy side, by their --
4 with their artillery, and we can see where the fire is coming from, and
5 we know where it's coming from, Madam Prosecutor. Well, it would have
6 been irresponsible not to return fire with fire.
7 Q. I want to move on to another area now. You talked about
8 air-bombs in your statement, and it seems like you know something about
9 them, so I want to put the following propositions to you: First of all,
10 do you agree with me that an air-bomb is a very powerful weapon with --
11 that carries a minimum of a hundred kilos of explosives?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. In some cases even more, up to 250.
14 A. I don't know how it seems to you, because there were thousands of
15 tasks in such situations in the war --
16 Q. [Overlapping speakers] Mr. Mijatovic --
17 A. -- so there were problems --
18 Q. [Overlapping speakers]
19 A. -- I don't know much about that.
20 Q. That was a yes-or-no kind of question. Let's move on. So with
21 hundred kilos -- a hundred kilos of explosives, do you agree with me that
22 the potential destructive power of an air-bomb is sizable, massive, in
24 A. That is not in dispute.
25 Q. Now, as Chief of Staff of the Ilidza Brigade in 1994 and 1995,
1 you must have ordered the use of these weapons.
2 A. I did not order their use. There was subordination in place.
3 There were people above me. I didn't. I claim that with full
4 responsibility. I did not order that such weapons be used.
5 Q. Well, if you know so much about them, you must have taken part in
6 the testing of these weapons then, didn't you?
7 A. Not specifically.
8 Q. You must have seen them firing?
9 A. On one occasion, yes. Sorry, if I may. If I may clarify
10 something, whether I was engaged in testing. If that means practical
11 testing, I did not take part in that. There were certain suggestions
12 along at that line, but I was never engaged in the practical testing.
13 Q. So you weren't engaged in the testing. You only saw it being
14 fired on one occasion. Did you ever see it hitting a target?
15 A. I did, twice. Three times. Once when we targeted a
16 refrigeration facility; another time when it did not explode in Hrasnica.
17 It landed where their mortars were and 120- and 82-millimetre weapons;
18 and once when it fell where the tanks were in Ogrev. So thrice in total.
19 We had five air-bombs. So these were three. Two were fired at the
20 refrigeration facility and it landed just short of it, and the other two
21 were used at Bjelasnica against the enemy side, in the forest, if I may
22 say so.
23 Q. Now, you said --
24 A. So I was aware of five, and -- according to my knowledge, and I
25 think it was a realistic assessment. There were five air-bombs in total,
1 and three were used on Ilidza and two on Bjelasnica at the front line.
2 MS. EDGERTON: So let's have a look at P5943, which is a VRS
3 Main Staff report to the president, dated 7 April 1995. And I'd like to
4 go to page 5 of the English, paragraph 3(B) and B/C/S page 3, almost at
5 the bottom of the page.
6 Q. So it seems to me that you might have missed one, Mr. Mijatovic,
7 because this document reports to the president that on this day the enemy
8 activity was adequately responded to whereby a 250-kilo air-bomb was
9 launched on the centre of Hrasnica.
10 A. Sorry, where do you find that?
11 Q. On your copy, go down to paragraph 3 --
12 JUDGE KWON: Top --
13 MS. EDGERTON: 3B.
14 JUDGE KWON: Top of the page, 3B.
15 MS. EDGERTON: On his copy it would be almost at the bottom of
16 the page, paragraph 3(B), just above paragraph 4.
17 Q. And the heading of (B) says: "Situation in the corps."
18 A. I see it now. So it was adequately responded to enemy action.
19 Is that it?
20 Q. That's right. So it seems like there's an additional incident
21 that you didn't know about.
22 A. No. Who fired it? It says on the centre of Hrasnica. The
23 centre should be a very small part. The forward part where the lines
24 were and the assets I mentioned. I don't have the centre in my version.
25 Rather, a term is used which depicts extremely small areas in enemy front
2 Q. Maybe -- maybe --
3 A. It's actually a cent, which is only 100th of a metre, meaning
4 centimetre. If we go by that, that would be in the centre of Hrasnica,
5 very close to the lines. That's the notion of centimetre.
6 Q. Why don't you go over and have a look at paragraph 25 of your
7 statement, Mr. Mijatovic?
8 A. Incident G10, is that it?
9 Q. That's right.
10 A. [No interpretation]
11 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is reading too fast interpreters
13 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
14 MS. EDGERTON:
15 Q. So, Mr. Mijatovic, are -- Mr. Mijatovic, you actually were well
16 aware, according to your statement, of the incident in Hrasnica?
17 A. We weren't -- this says nothing about whether I was informed
18 about the incident in Hrasnica. This only goes to my knowledge as to the
19 deployment of enemy forces. If I know that the US sixth fleet is in the
20 Adriatic, it doesn't mean that I know where they will engage tomorrow.
21 Q. Oh, so in your statement, then, where you talk about the
22 deployment of enemy forces in Hrasnica, are we to understand that, to
23 your mind, a 250-kilo air-bomb was an appropriate weapon to use against
24 120-millimetre mortar nest?
25 A. That's not it. It wasn't one mortar as it was interpreted to me.
1 When you have a mortar nest, there are several, two, three, up to five
2 mortars within a 50-metre radius. A mortar nest always has more than one
4 Q. That wasn't my question. My question was whether we're to
5 understand that, to your mind, a 250-kilo air-bomb was an appropriate
6 weapon to use against 120-millimetre mortar nest. Yes or no?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I was not allowed to elicit the
8 witness's opinion. Why should it be allowed to the Prosecution? Perhaps
9 we should hear first what the witness knows rather than thinks.
10 JUDGE KWON: No, it's a totally inappropriate intervention at
11 this time.
12 Please answer the question, Mr. Mijatovic.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since obviously in a rush many
14 things were omitted here, I don't see the tanks mentioned here, which
15 were mentioned as part of the 104th Brigade, and that was in the area of
16 Hrasnica. No one's talking about the 150- and 105-millimetre howitzers
17 in Hrasnica. Rather, things were being suggested to me. The only thing
18 you didn't ask me whether there was a pistol there which we targeted by
19 using an air-bomb.
20 MS. EDGERTON:
21 Q. So still on the subject of air-bombs but in another vein, if you
22 know something about them, you must know that they're powered by rocket
23 fuel; correct?
24 A. I know approximately that it uses some kind of rocket fuel, but
25 I'm not familiar with any details. What you said is the extent of my
2 Q. And when the fuel runs out, the rocket -- the bomb drops. Did
3 you know that?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. So on what basis, then, can you, as you do in paragraph 18,
6 knowing that talk about the proper function of air-bombs and the need for
7 imprecision, possible errors and deviations to be reduced to a minimum?
8 These weapons were actually inherently inaccurate, weren't they?
9 A. Well, it was imprecise. Namely when I said that I didn't take
10 part in the experimenting, it is a fact, though, and there was a witness
11 in this courtroom whose testimony I followed. I learned again through
12 stories that there were deviations, that, for example, a bomb sent one
13 way would not exactly follow the trajectory, and I asked why and what
14 happened, and then I was told that on occasion there would be a
15 malfunctioning engine, and the remaining three engines would push it out
16 of control. Then I requested that the -- a way be found or equipment
17 created to take care of that or to carry out checks that all engines are
18 properly functioning, and we -- there was a witness here who was in
19 charge of establishing that procedure, to have a team of electronics
20 engineers where engines were tested, and in such circumstances the bomb
21 always travelled the desired route. So there was no longer any
22 possibility that it would deviate you to a malfunctioning engine. I told
23 you that the engines were controlled at first in the factory and then at
24 the firing place itself where the engines were checked, and only then it
25 could be known that it would travel the desired route and distance. One
1 cannot --
2 Q. [Overlapping speakers] so --
3 A. -- say on account of all that that it was imprecise.
4 Q. So taking what you've just said, if we go back over to this
5 incident G10 that you referred to in paragraph 25, taking what you just
6 said and knowing that a civilian house in Hrasnica, this partly civilian
7 community that you've described was demolished because of the impact of
8 that air-bomb, are we meant to understand that you meant to target the
9 civilian house?
10 A. No house was destroyed in that area. It's an enemy lie. Our
11 observers told us about the unexploded one, whereas the other one
12 exploded on Ogrev. At Ogrev there were no houses in the vicinity. It's
13 an enemy line. I even had an opportunity to see their report if that's
14 what you had in mind. It was drafted two years after the war and one can
15 see it's a lie because, Madam Prosecutor, they said that five air-bombs
16 were launched at Hrasnica. It's a lie. There were only two. So they
17 start lying with the numbers and places where those bombs fell.
18 Q. I think we'll move on to another area, and it relates to
19 something that you referred to in the paragraphs of your statement that
20 you added after having seen Dr. Karadzic. In those additions you offered
21 us a number of documents that you say describe your relationship with
22 UNPROFOR, and you say that the brigade didn't cause problems with them
23 except when they abused their mandate, but on reading that, I recalled in
24 March 1995, the SRK closed all the land routes into Sarajevo including
25 those in the area of the Ilidza Brigade. Didn't that cause problems with
2 A. In March 1995? Well, if so, to be honest, I can't really recall
3 it as I sit here, but there must have been very good reasons for
4 something like that. And I was not responsible for the area of
5 responsibility of the corps. I was only responsible for my own zone, and
6 that's -- my command would have been responsible for that, too, and there
7 must have been very strong reasons if that's what happened --
8 Q. Now --
9 A. -- that's what was done. I'm trying to recall where I was in
10 March 1995, and that's not easy. You have to admit that. I mean, you
11 should have put this question to someone from the corps.
12 Q. Now --
13 A. I cannot really speak for them.
14 Q. In July 1995, the problems actually got a little bit more
15 serious, and maybe we'll have a document, P897, called up to have a look
16 at that. In July 1995, your forces shelled UN convoys who were bringing
17 aid into the city over Mount Igman, and I don't think there's a
18 translation of this -- oh, there is. What a surprise. In that case,
19 we'll go to English page 4.
20 This document is an UNPROFOR weekly sitrep dated 15 July 1995 and
21 refers to an attack on the Igman road that devastates an aid convoy, and
22 if we -- and --
23 MS. EDGERTON: My apologies. I didn't realise, Your Honours,
24 that a B/C/S translation is available, but I would be grateful to my
25 friends if they would find the relevant paragraph.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes. I think we are there.
2 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
3 Q. It reports in the paragraph that's headed: "Attacks on the Igman
4 road, aid convoy devastated, French retaliate," which is at the -- if you
5 could scroll down on the B/C/S page. That's the heading. And then the
6 text, relevant text, would be over on the next page of the English. This
7 report reads that:
8 "On Friday evening, 14 July, an UNPROFOR UNHCR convoy of four
9 vehicles carrying flour over Igman was attacked from Serb-held flats
10 below the mountain.
11 "A 30-millimetre cannon and a 76-millimetre tank weapon fired
12 from Bacevo and a T-55 fired from Gornji Kotorac. Two of the four
13 vehicles were destroyed on another was damaged."
14 Now, this doesn't appear to be an example of UNPROFOR exceeding
15 their mandate at all and yet they were fired upon.
16 A. Is there a question for me? Well, first of all, and I'm not sure
17 that the translation is good, and I hope that people who can speak both
18 Serbian and English follow this, we didn't have a 30-millimetre cannon,
19 nor do I know that there was a T-76-millimetre tank used during this
20 work. So immediately judging from that you can see that this report is
21 not accurate. We neither had this cannon nor a 76-millimetre tank. So
22 this now puts into question your entire claim here and question. We did
23 not have this cannon, and I say with -- this with full responsibility.
24 Nor did we have a 76-millimetre tank. That's what I'm reading here. So
25 we were not the ones who opened fire, because -- that's obvious, because
1 we did not have these assets.
2 Q. All right.
3 A. Or -- or -- just look at this, please. Please allow me. Serbs
4 returned fire with 78-millimetre calibre shells. That, too, does not
5 exist. So all these assets, all these weapons mentioned here, they're
6 just a fabrication. There is no 78-millimetre weapon, nor do I know of
7 any cannon, a 30-millimetre cannon, nor a 76-millimetre tank. There
8 really were no such weapons.
9 Q. Mr. --
10 A. So somebody just sat down and wrote this off the top of their
12 Q. Well, let's have a look at P1782, a SRK daily combat report to
13 the VRS Main Staff for the 14 July -- 14th of July, 1995.
14 JUDGE KWON: The number again, Ms. Edgerton.
15 MS. EDGERTON: I'd better check with Mr. Reid, but -- apologies
16 for a moment, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE KWON: Could you repeat the exhibit number.
18 MS. EDGERTON: P1782 and I misspoke in terms of the date.
19 7 April 1995. That's the correct document. And let's go over in English
20 to page 3. And in B/C/S, we also need paragraph 3. I'm not sure of the
21 page number. In B/C/S you have to go over one further page. Thank you.
22 Oh, no. Apologies. It's paragraph 3. It's displayed halfway through
23 the page on the screen.
24 Q. Now, this is dated April 7, 1995, and it says:
25 "Problems with UNPROFOR emerged in the Ilidza Infantry Brigade
1 zone yesterday around 9.15 when UNPROFOR fired at our positions in the
2 area of the forestry school, following our shooting at the Hrasnica-Igman
3 road. After that, they came closer to the position of our Browning."
4 And then further it says:
5 "...today at around 7.30 in the morning, a UN unit positioned 4
6 APCs near our check-points in Nedzarici and later on 2 tanks as well,
7 hindering normal contact between Nedzarici and the ... airport ...," and
8 then, "the brigade blocked UNPROFOR."
9 So UNPROFOR was again shot at on the Hrasnica-Igman road this
10 time three months earlier than the first incident, by SRK forces. Are
11 you disputing the accuracy of this report?
12 A. Well, I can neither dispute it nor confirm it, Madam Prosecutor.
13 All I know is for your information and for the benefit of the
14 Trial Chamber, that we worked well together with UNPROFOR. We
15 co-operated. But there were also differences such as these, if I may
16 call them that, because, and I've already explained this to the Defence
17 and Mr. President, Mr. Karadzic, the -- namely the UNPROFOR was made up
18 of members of the Foreign Legion, and these legionnaires, of course some
19 of them were honourable but most of them just wanted to profit from other
20 people's suffering and to profit from other people's suffering when you
21 have an occasion is as follows: We saw -- --
22 Q. Now --
23 A. -- on the screens --
24 Q. Mr. Mijatovic --
5 A. A numbers of times, yes.
6 Q. And of course you've met with Dragomir Milosevic.
7 A. Yes, also a number of times, and they're both honourable men.
8 Q. And you would have met them then both at the brigade command but
9 also at corps headquarters at Lukavica?
10 A. Well, there is no corps Main Staff. There's only one Main Staff.
11 I want to make sure that there is no confusion here. There was a command
12 of the main corps of -- there was a corps command, so we met as
13 subordinate and superior at the corps command and the brigade command.
14 So this would be the correct answer. There was only one Main Staff and
15 that was --
16 Q. All right.
17 A. -- above the entire army.
18 Q. Now, did General Galic and General Milosevic come to your
19 brigade's area of responsibility to inspect the troops?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And how often would these inspections take place?
22 A. Well, they could say they were regular, because after all it was
23 part of their duties. So you could say that was on a regular basis.
24 Q. Would they visit the lines?
25 A. Yes. Yes, and there were occasions where I went with them to
1 visit the lines.
2 Q. And would you describe them as very familiar with the situation
3 in their corps overall?
4 A. Very well acquainted.
5 Q. And just one last question, just because you seem to have a
6 friendly relationship with the President and you waved at him when you
7 left the courtroom yesterday. How long have you known Dr. Karadzic?
8 A. Well, from before the war, but we didn't -- I didn't know him
9 personally. We met during the war, or in fact from the time when the
10 Serbian Democratic Party was established. That's for how long I've known
11 of him. I've known of him from the press, the television, and so on. He
12 was an admired person by the Serbian people. Is an admired person by the
13 Serbian people. And had it not been for him, the Serbian people would
14 not have remained on this side of the river, nor would it have survived
15 in that area, because we saw in Kosovo and Macedonia and Slovenia and
16 Croatia what was in store for Serbs.
17 Q. When you say "this side of the river," what river are you talking
19 A. Well, I mean the Drina River. The enemy's objective, and this
20 was mentioned on numerous occasions in the media and on the TV in
21 Slovenia and Croatia, and even to this day in Bosnia and Herzegovina
22 Sefer Halilovic said that if need be, they would resolve the Serbian
23 issue summarily and --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last
25 portion of his answer.
1 MS. EDGERTON:
2 Q. The interpreters didn't hear the last portion of your answer
3 after resolving "the Serbian issue."
4 A. Well, according to them, the enemy, that's what it meant. And I
5 also added, but you had taken your headphones off so you couldn't have
6 heard this, you probably didn't hear of the statement by the commander of
7 the so-called Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, General Halilovic's. It again
8 introduced a certain level of friction in that area and caused unrest,
9 because he openly on TV and through the media again issued threats to
10 Serbs, saying that he would handle us summarily or take care of us
11 summarily, us Serbs, and he's just one of many of those who keep issuing
12 threats and using warmongering --
13 Q. Mr. Mijatovic?
14 A. -- speeches.
15 Q. Mr. Mijatovic?
16 A. And the same is true of Izetbegovic and -- --
17 Q. Mr. Mijatovic?
18 A. -- Bakir Izetbegovic and --
19 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. You did much more than repeat the last
20 portion of your answer.
21 I'm over time, Your Honours, so I'm concluding.
22 JUDGE KWON: You didn't deal with the video-clip at all.
23 MS. EDGERTON: Recognising that I'm over time, Your Honours, I
24 chose to not deal with it and focus on other areas.
25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Mr. Karadzic, do you have any
1 re-examination? How long would you need?
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Between 15 to 20 minutes and
3 perhaps even less.
4 JUDGE KWON: Shall we have a break -- a short break?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, can we try to do it without
6 the break, because that will make it faster. If I elicit short answers
7 we can go on without a break.
8 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Then let's continue, Mr. Karadzic.
9 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
10 Q. [Interpretation] Major sir, it was suggested to you that you met
11 with me at the Detention Unit. Did you meet with me in the
12 Detention Unit, and how did we have your statement confirmed?
13 A. To my great regret, Mr. President, we did not meet directly. We
14 spoke via link that was --
15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the end. Could
16 all other microphones please be switched off. Thank you.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Thank you. You said --
19 JUDGE KWON: The interpreters said they couldn't hear the last
20 part of the witness's answer. What did you say? "We spoke via link,"
21 and then? What did you say after you mentioned videolink -- via link?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said it was to my great regret
23 that we did not talk directly that we talked through this videolink.
24 That is what I said. That's all I said.
25 JUDGE KWON: Please continue.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Thank you. Did I suggest those positions to you and those
3 locations where the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was, or how was it that I
4 asked you about the forces that were facing you?
5 A. Well, Mr. President, and I'm responding to Their Honours, you
6 could not suggest that to me. If anyone could have suggested anything to
7 anyone, only I could have suggested this to you, because I'm from the
8 area. I spent the war there. There was no need for any kind of
9 suggestion coming from you.
10 Q. Thank you. There was the question of your information about the
11 existence of observers in your brigade and that that was not reflected in
12 your statement. Do you know of any brigades that did not have observers?
13 A. I don't think that nowhere in the world is there a brigade that
14 did not have one, let alone the Army of Republika Srpska. They were
15 certainly one of the most disciplined armies in the world. There is
16 simply no brigade anywhere without observers; not only in our area but
17 anywhere in the world, any army anywhere in the world.
18 Q. Thank you. In line 50 today there was mention of whether
19 civilians were present at firing positions. Let me ask you this: Did
20 you allow the following: While artillery pieces were firing, could
21 civilians gather around that artillery piece?
22 A. No way. That is a basic rule of warfare anywhere that civilians
23 should not be close to weapons that are firing.
24 Q. What about --
25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, it's a leading question.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Well, I'm asking, for instance, whether the Muslim side assembled
3 civilians while they were firing at you.
4 A. No. No. That is impossible for any normal person to do that.
5 Q. Thank you. On page 49, Witness Fraser was mentioned, and it was
6 noted that he said that with your mortars you could not damage buildings
7 at all. What was your objective? Was your objective to destroy
8 buildings in Alipasino Polje? What could you use to destroy buildings
10 A. Mr. President, this was never our intention or our objective to
11 fire at civilian facilities or civilians, not only in Alipasino Polje but
12 anywhere in Republika Srpska. I state that with full responsibility.
13 Wherever I was at any front line, that was never the objective and that
14 was never the intention to fire at civilians and civilian facilities.
15 Q. If it would be your objective to destroy buildings, massive
16 strong buildings, what could you use to break down such buildings, what
17 kind of weaponry?
18 A. Well, we'd have to use heavy calibres to damage a building.
19 These are howitzers or cannons or tanks. Those are weapons for
20 destroying buildings, but I repeat once again it was not our objective or
21 our intention to do that. On the contrary, although we ourselves knew of
22 the law of war and the Geneva Conventions, we did receive orders that
23 were of a permanent nature, a lasting nature, not to fire, not even to
24 use the weapons that we did have, nothing against civilians or civilian
1 Q. Thank you.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have in e-court D331.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. This is an intercept, a conversation between myself and the late
5 Danilo Veselinovic. Did you know who Danilo Veselinovic was?
6 A. Yes, I knew him personally, Mr. President, but I don't have that
7 here now -- oh, just a moment. Yes, I have it now.
8 Q. Thank you. This is the 13th of April, 1992. Can we have page 2
9 both in English and in Serbian. It was suggested to you that I knew
10 about fire against Hrasnica and it was implied that I accepted civilian
11 casualties. Please let us look at line 8 or 9 from up here:
12 "Radovan Karadzic: Aha, to probably the traffic-light the sports
14 And then Veselinovic says:
15 "Yes, the hall."
16 "Which sports hall?"
17 And then he says, Veselinovic:
18 "At Mojmilo. Well, it's in our hands. Shall we blow it up or
20 And then further down I'm asking whether there are people there.
21 And now can we have page 3 in Serbian in English we can keep this one.
22 It's towards the bottom of the page in English here.
23 And Danilo is saying:
24 "Should I fire?"
25 And I say:
1 "Yes, it is important that there are no people there, that there
2 won't be any civilian casualties."
3 Does this correspond to your knowledge about our attitude towards
4 Muslim civilian casualties?
5 A. Well, Mr. President, when Serbs say "bignoti [phoen]," that means
6 "to take" or, rather, to -- to -- but then, you know, in the jargon also
7 I don't know whether the people who are present here -- when this verb is
8 used, say, in Sarajevo, that would mean that somebody stole my wallet, my
9 coat or something like that. So that verb was used like meaning to
10 steal, to nick, if you will. I know that you were very explicit, very
11 imperative. You always said that fire should not be opened. You and
12 also the Main Staff headed by General Mladic and also the corps commands
13 and the brigade commands said that civilians and civilian facilities
14 should not be fired at.
15 Q. Thank you. But on this page here in Serbian it says "should we
16 fire?" So that is where there was a warehouse of looted goods. And he
17 says, "should I fire?" And then my answer is that it is important that
18 there are no people there. But, thank you, you've answered my question.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please have 1D3002.
20 Thank you.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Can we please take a look at this. This is the
23 16th of February, 1994. This is a meeting with Galic, an UNPROFOR
24 meeting, a meeting of the UNPROFOR commander with him.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page now,
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have a translation here.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. I'm going to read it out in English and then you will receive
6 A. Very well.
7 Q. Just five. [In English] "Regrouping of Bosnia of weapons":
8 "As they are very concerned with the area south-east of Sarajevo,
9 I told them that I will ask the Bosnian side to regroup heavy weapons
10 from Butmir, Sokolovic and Hrasnica in one location under UNPROFOR
12 [Interpretation] Before I put my question, let me just remind you
13 this is the 16th of February, 1994, and there was this promise given to
14 General Galic as to what UNPROFOR will do with Muslims weapons to the
15 south-west of Sarajevo.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please look at 1D8374.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Please take a look at this. You have it in Serbian. There's a
20 reference to the 14th of July, and could you please take a look at this
21 here. It says that we started an artillery attack on an unannounced
22 convoy of trucks travelling along the so-called Igman road. Do you
23 remember that it was the duty of UNPROFOR to announce their convoys
24 including the vehicles and goods involved?
25 A. I remember that very well. That was the obligation of UNPROFOR.
1 Q. I shall rephrase. Major, why did it say unannounced convoy here?
2 A. Mr. President, that is quite clear to me. There was no need for
3 this reaction on the part of Madam Prosecutor. I am one of the persons
4 who carried out the measures agreed between UNPROFOR and the Serb side,
5 and there were no problems whenever they were announced and when they
6 were not smuggling ammunition and weapons into Sarajevo. So one just had
7 to have this goodwill and announce the convoy and then there would be no
8 problems whatsoever.
9 Q. Thank you. Did their mandate include escorting trucks of the
10 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
11 A. That did not -- that was not part of their mandate. On the
12 contrary, that was a violation of the agreements with the Serb side.
13 Q. Thank you. I'm now going to read out this other paragraph: Our
14 artillery fire was counteracted by mortar shells and machine-gun fire
15 from the enemy position on Igman, Hrasnica and Sokolovic Kolonija as well
16 as the firing positions and assets of UNPROFOR.
17 That obligation from February 1994 that they will regroup and
18 remove these weapons from these Muslim settlements, was that honoured?
19 A. We knew. Our observers reported to us directly and regularly and
20 we knew that this had not been honoured and that is true because on the
21 14th of July there were already rapid deployment forces stationed at
22 UNPROFOR together with UNPROFOR. And now why do I remember this? On the
23 14th of July the parents of my military policeman got killed within the
24 hospital compound. So it was the hospital that was shelled on that day
25 from all directions, not only Sokolovic Kolonija but Butmir but also from
1 Igman where these rapid deployment forces were and where UNPROFOR was.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you just one more document,
3 1D6451, please. Can these two that we've already seen be admitted,
5 JUDGE KWON: I'm not sure whether you asked anything about the
6 previous document.
7 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
8 MS. EDGERTON: I was just pointing out this document 1D03002 is
9 actually already admitted as P02120. That's the previous document.
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. And you have no objection to admit the
11 last document.
12 MS. EDGERTON: Of course not.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We will admit it as next Defence exhibit.
14 THE REGISTRAR: 1D8374 receives number D2512, Your Honours.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Along with an apology for not having this translated yet, I mean
18 this document, but indeed the need cropped up for that. I'll read it
20 "On the basis of daily reports of duty officers of battalions, we
21 hereby notify you that during the last night and day the enemy did not
22 abide by the signed cease-fire because constant provocations went on by
23 sniper fire from the directions of Oslobodjenje, Dobrinja 5, Butmir. We
24 did not respond to fire. We did not have any casualties, any wounded or
1 What was the usual thing? When did you not respond with fire?
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
3 MS. EDGERTON: We have a translation.
4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
5 And what is your question, Mr. Karadzic?
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Does this reflect the truth, that fire was opened from these
8 positions, that the Serb side did not respond unless they had any
9 casualties, wounded or dead?
10 A. Mr. President, sometimes it happened that we had both dead and
11 wounded and did not respond nevertheless. Why? Believe me, I conducted
12 an analysis. Most of our dead lost their lives during cease-fires,
13 because the Serbs fully observed the cease-fire whereas the enemy side,
14 the Muslims, did not and this is correct what is written here.
15 Q. Could I ask you now that you read paragraph 3 while we're waiting
16 for the translation, that is the situation in the area of responsibility
17 of our brigade and then?
18 A. Yes. UNPROFOR is carrying out its regular tasks and today it was
19 observed that it was escorting a column of Turkish trucks up Igman. The
20 reference is to Muslim forces, sorry.
21 Q. Were they allowed to do that according to their mandate?
22 A. No. That was obvious. I think that once or twice I said that.
23 I said that. Sometimes they were fair in their co-operation and
24 sometimes they were unfair. When I say unfair, I'm saying this: This is
25 abuse of their mission. I mean, the mission of the United Nations.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Major. I have no
2 further questions. Can this document be admitted.
3 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton.
4 MS. EDGERTON: No objection.
5 JUDGE KWON: We'll receive it.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D6451 receives number D2513,
7 Your Honours.
8 JUDGE KWON: As regards the three video-clips you used in your
9 examination-in-chief, Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber finds the first one,
10 i.e., 1D6482, not relevant to this case. However, as regards the
11 remainder of those three, i.e., 1D6483 and 1D6484, albeit marginally, the
12 Chamber finds it relevant so that we'll admit those two. Shall we give
13 the number.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D6483 receives number D2514,
15 Your Honours, and document 1D6484 receives number D2515, Your Honours.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The first two that were
17 untranslated were even more important for the Defence, but in order not
18 to have to keep the witness here, by your leave, we will seek to tender
19 them through his commander or someone else from his brigade who could
20 testify to the contents.
21 JUDGE KWON: So you are not going to keep the witness until next
22 week. Very well. Then that concludes your evidence, Mr. Mijatovic. I
23 thank you for your coming to The Hague to give it. Now you are free to
24 go. But we will rise altogether -- yes. You may be excused
25 Mr. Mijatovic.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, for having
2 listened to me patiently, and as for you, Mr. President, I hope you get
3 out as soon as possible.
4 [The witness withdrew]
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
6 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Mr. President. In light of the time,
7 I'll try to be very brief. We've had a lot of scheduling changes which
8 we've tried to accommodate, although with considerable strain to our
9 resources and personnel during the process. Now we have another change
10 for next week. A witness has been accelerated. Again, we're going to
11 try to accommodate that as we've indicated to Mr. Robinson. That witness
12 is currently scheduled for the last day of the week on Thursday. The
13 position agreed upon by the parties has been that he would be fixed for
14 that date even though there is some concern about the -- whether or not
15 the number of available witnesses will consume the entire portion of the
16 week. So even if -- if we finish with the other witnesses earlier, that
17 witness would still be heard on Thursday, and I just wanted to confirm
18 that with the Court.
19 JUDGE KWON: I see no problem there. So we'll --
20 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
22 We'll be sitting in the afternoon on Monday next week. The
23 hearing is now adjourned.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.57 p.m.,
25 to be reconvened on Monday, the 3rd day
1 of December, 2012, at 2.15 p.m.