1 Thursday, 6 December 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone. The Chamber didn't have the
7 time to discuss about the Tintor interview's admissibility, so the
8 Chamber will give its ruling on Tuesday next week.
9 Yes, Ms. Sutherland, please continue.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Good morning, Your Honours. Thank you.
11 WITNESS: VELJKO LUBURA [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 Cross-examination by Ms. Sutherland: [Continued]
14 Q. Mr. Lubura, we finished off yesterday when it was put to you that
15 the Bosnian Serb side denied access to repair lines, and you said
16 transcript page 31054:
17 "I personally do not know about that. It was a matter for
18 UNPROFOR. They were the ones who were in charge of this operation and
19 then they would inform us that they had received approval. That was the
20 duty of UNPROFOR and that was what we had agreed upon at Sarajevo
22 Do you recall that?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. I just wanted to clarify this, and we're talking about the -- the
25 time period of the conflict. If we look at 65 ter number 24262.
1 Mr. Lubura, this document in front of you is a monthly report July 1993
2 of the utility situation and repair missions situation details. And if
3 we can go to paragraph 11, please.
4 Now, UNPROFOR says here that -- that the Serbs denied any access
5 to the repair location on the line supplying the town Reljevo-Vogosca.
6 This denial of access is not something you would have heard about, is it?
7 A. No, I didn't hear about that. I told you that it was an UNPROFOR
8 obligation to gain approval from both the Serb and Muslim side in terms
9 of any repairs to the distribution lines leading to Sarajevo. It was
10 their obligation. If we established that there was a cut somewhere, the
11 UNPROFOR had to obtain permission from both sides and then two teams, one
12 per side, went in the field to fix it. It was something for them to do.
13 My part was to use my expert knowledge to carry out the necessary
14 repairs. That's the extent of it. I had no connections to either of the
15 armed forces.
16 Q. And you -- on that note, you didn't know first-hand how the
17 damage had occurred. You were just there to fix the damage. That's
18 right, isn't it?
19 A. Let me tell you this: If there was a cut on the transmission
20 lines in the Reljevo transformer station, we had a surge protection
21 barrier where we could detect where the cut occurred, whether it was a
22 single phase or double phase cut. We could tell, because the instruments
23 showed it to us, the protection instruments.
24 Q. Did you know that access for repairs being -- were being granted
25 in exchange for concessions from international forces or the BiH side?
1 A. I repeat, if there was a malfunction and it usually occurred
2 along disengagement lines at Sarajevo airport, both Serbs and Muslims
3 came to agree with UNPROFOR on the date of repairs. UNPROFOR was there
4 to secure a lull --
5 Q. Mr. Lubura, that wasn't my question -- sorry. My question was
6 did you know that access was being granted in exchange for concessions
7 from international forces or BiH side? For example, if we look at a
8 document. If we can have Exhibit P00896.
9 A. Where is the document?
10 Q. It's coming up. It will be one moment. If we can go to page 6
11 of the document. That's 1 of -- sorry. Page -- yes, page 6 of the
12 document. It says here under "Utilities":
13 "The Serb military continues to insist that there will be no
14 restoration of utilities until the fighting around the city has stopped."
15 Did you ever hear about this?
16 A. No. This is the first time I see this document. I don't know.
17 Q. And if we could have a look at 65 ter number 24264, please. This
18 is dated the 27th of September, 1994, from Akashi to Annan, and if we can
19 go to paragraph (b) under Electricity:
20 "Electricity repairs have begun on the Sarajevo network following
21 Karadzic's agreement to clear the access of repair teams provided
22 UNPROFOR subsequently also addressed the problem of the eastern and
23 Northern Bosnia power lines, of particular interest to the Serb civilian
25 Again, this is something that you have heard of or not?
1 A. Yes, yes. I know well that the transmission lines between
2 Reljevo and Kiseljak which had an antenna connection to the
3 Jablanica-Kakanj distribution line, there was a malfunction at
4 Mount Kokoska in the direction of Kiseljak. On that occasion, UNPROFOR
5 obtained approval from all three sides, because on this occasion the
6 Croatian side was included as well as the Muslim and Serbian, and my team
7 fixed the transmission line at Kokoska so that there should be an
8 unhindered supply of electricity to the transformer station.
9 Q. This text suggests that repairs didn't begin until the agreement
10 was given by the accused clearing access. Was this something that you
11 were aware of?
12 A. I only know that there was a malfunction at Mount Kokoska on the
13 transmission line there, and we fixed it. UNPROFOR came and we sent two
14 teams in the field. There was another team on the Croatian side from
15 Kiseljak, and we fixed the transmission line at Mount Kokoska.
16 Q. Thank you. You can't exclude the possibility that there were
17 political decisions not to -- that -- that there were political decisions
18 to delay or deny the repairing of lines that were feeding into central
19 Sarajevo having seen these documents.
20 A. I was not interested in politics. I'm an electrical engineer.
21 My only job was to maintain and fix electricity facilities that were
22 within my area of expertise.
23 Q. You mentioned in your statement at paragraph 15 and yesterday at
24 transcript page 31046 that you didn't have enough spare parts,
25 particularly transformer oil, insulators, switches, distribution devices
1 and protection devices. Were there any cases where parts, for example,
2 transformer oil, were brought in by UNPROFOR but their use was being
3 blocked by the Bosnian Serb side?
4 A. I do know that UNPROFOR transported much of the spare parts
5 needed for the transformer stations via Kiseljak and Ilidza to Sarajevo.
6 We intervened with UNPROFOR once, and then in 1994 they also supplied us
7 with one-third of the spare parts, whereas the other two-thirds went to
8 the Muslim side. The one-third we received remained in our warehouse --
9 Q. That's not responsive --
10 A. -- in Ilidza.
11 Q. -- to my question. My question was were there any cases where
12 parts were being brought in but their use was being blocked by the
13 Bosnian Serb side? Do you know of any -- are you aware of any cases?
14 A. No. No. I wasn't aware of it.
15 Q. You said that you were never ordered to cut off electric power to
16 any part of Sarajevo. This is in paragraph 17 of your statement. This
17 doesn't exclude the possibility that other Bosnian Serb authorities cut
18 off electric power.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is speculative.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As the director of the facility --
21 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Yes, Mr. Karadzic, what is your
22 point -- what was your point, and what was your basis?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness is called to speculate,
24 to guess.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I --
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Would you like to respond? I don't think --
2 let me read your question again.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I think it's a yes or a no answer.
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Simply the witness can answer the question.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As the facility manager, I was
6 never ordered by anyone, be it civilian or military authorities, to cut
7 off electricity.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND:
9 Q. As I said, my question was: Does it exclude the possibility that
10 other --
11 JUDGE MORRISON: Dr. Karadzic's objection had some basis,
12 because -- if you look at the answers the witness has already given, it
13 may be a truism that it doesn't exclude the possibility, but the answer
14 to that, yes or no, is simply an answer that there may or may not be a
15 possibility. It doesn't advance the case.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: I take your point, Your Honour.
17 Q. Mr. Lubura, you said you -- you were never ordered to cut off
18 electric power, and -- and you said that you never would. It is true, is
19 it not, that power was cut off by the Bosnian Serbs to the areas in
20 central Sarajevo? Mr. Lubura?
21 A. Your question is unclear. What do you mean cut off by the
22 Bosnian Serbs to the areas in central Sarajevo? It is not clear to me.
23 How could the Serbs obstruct supply to the centre of Sarajevo? It's not
24 clear to me. If you look at my grid schematics, you could see that we
25 forwarded voltage from Reljevo to Buca Potok via the distribution line
1 Sarajevo 10 Reljevo and Sarajevo 8 Buca Potok. Had the transmission line
2 been dammed in that part, there would have not been any electricity in
3 the central part of Sarajevo under Muslim control. In other words, that
4 part of the transformer -- transmission line had to be fixed first.
5 Q. And there was also -- you were also feeding into -- from Vogosca
6 down to Velesici and Kosevo. Isn't that right?
7 A. No. From Vogosca the transmission line Vogosca-Velesici was
8 never fixed. There were attempts to have it fixed but it never was, not
9 until May 1995 when I joined the Energoinvest company. The only
10 transmission line that was functioning, taking electricity supply to the
11 centre of Sarajevo was Reljevo-Buca Potok.
12 Q. Okay, if we can have 65 ter number 24253, page 3, please. This
13 is -- this is an UNPROFOR document from -- a UN document from the civil
14 affairs officer to the acting DSRSG in -- dated the 26th of May, 1995,
15 and it says, "This morning --" just at the bottom of what's on the screen
17 "This morning civil affairs has been informed by SCS that the
18 electricity supply to the city is cut. It appears that Pale authorities
19 made a political decision to cut electricity supply along the Vogosca and
20 Reljevo lines. If such situation persists Sarajevo will have no water
22 So, sir, this is a contemporaneous document at the time of the
23 NATO air-strikes which shows that a decision was made by Pale to cut
24 electricity into the city.
25 A. Sorry, what date is this?
1 Q. It's dated the 26th of May, 1995. If we can go back to page 1,
3 A. By that time I was in Lukavica, and I do not recall this. The
4 manager by that time was Mr. Jovicic, whereas I returned to the
5 Energoinvest company.
6 Q. When -- when did you go to Lukavica?
7 A. On the 15th of May. I was already in the Energoinvest at
8 Lukavica that day; 1995, that is.
9 Q. And I think you said just a moment ago that by May they had fixed
10 the line from Vogosca to Velesici, did you not?
11 A. They didn't fix that as long as I was the facility manager.
12 That's what I said. The only functioning transmission line was
13 Reljevo-Buca Potok.
14 Q. And we can see here that this document makes reference to -- to
15 the supply being cut along the Reljevo line into the city of Sarajevo.
16 A. During my testimony, I did say that it was the only transmission
17 line that was operational which could carry electricity from Reljevo to
18 Buca Potok. That means Sarajevo 10 Reljevo and Sarajevo 8 Buca Potok.
19 That transmission line functioned for the most part. 7 Buca Potok,
20 you're right.
21 Q. If we can have a look at 65 ter number 24254, please. On -- this
22 is dated the 31st of July, 1995, another UN document, a Weekly Situation
23 Report. If we can go to page 7 under paragraph (F) "Utilities." It
25 "Serb authorities in western Sarajevo are now willing to talk to
1 their Bosnian counterparts, said they cut the water -- cut off the water,
2 electricity and gas supplies in late May" 1995 "to punish the Muslims for
3 their offensive around the city."
4 You said that you weren't aware of this electricity being cut off
5 in May 1995, but were you aware that the Bosnian Serbs cut off the water
6 on occasions in order to punish the Muslims either for their offensives
7 around the city?
8 A. You see, this document is from June 1995. I said that by that
9 time I was already in Lukavica in Energoinvest. Hence I couldn't have
10 known what was -- about what was going on in Ilidza.
11 Q. Mr. Lubura, I said that you had previously testified that you
12 weren't there in May. My question was: Are you aware that the
13 Bosnian Serbs cut off the water -- the electricity or the utilities, in
14 fact, to punish the Muslims?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have the document or a
16 reference that this was indeed carried out? This is an interpretation of
17 the talks or negotiations, but was this implemented at all?
18 Ms. Sutherland is putting her questions as if this was the case.
19 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Sutherland was asking whether witness knew or
20 not. The witness can answer easily.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course I didn't know.
22 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we can go to Defence 65 ter exhibit --
23 JUDGE KWON: By the way, how much longer would you need,
24 Ms. Sutherland? Your time was up a while ago, and you seem to not to pay
25 attention to your time at all.
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I thought that I had 20 minutes --
2 sorry, 20 minutes this morning. And I note I have an additional five
3 minutes, and I do note that the accused took 45 minutes in chief
4 yesterday as well as tendering a statement.
5 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Let's continue.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we could have 65 ter 1D03405, please.
7 Q. This is dated the 28th of May, an UNPROFOR Weekly Situation
8 Report. On paragraph -- e-court page 3 at paragraph 6, summarising the
9 events following the air-strikes, it says:
10 "They have cut the water and electricity supplies to Sarajevo."
11 And then if we can go to page 17 -- or paragraph 17 on page 6.
12 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President. I'm wondering what is
13 the point of putting documents to him during a time that he wasn't there.
14 This is now the third document. They haven't tendered the first two,
15 neither of them seem to be admissible. What is the point of putting a
16 third one to him?
17 JUDGE KWON: Would you like to respond, Ms. Sutherland?
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, first of all, Mr. Karadzic made the
19 interjection that he wanted to know whether in fact it had been cut off
20 and I shouldn't have risen to his bait. This document clearly shows that
21 it was cut off. I will move on, Your Honour.
22 Q. Sir, up until you were in Lukavica, how long were you in
23 Lukavica --
24 JUDGE KWON: Ms. -- yes. Just --
25 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]
1 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. The Chamber sees a point in
2 Mr. Robinson's observation. It's difficult to see the point of putting
3 similar documents to the witness.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: As I said, I rose to Mr. Karadzic's bait on him
5 wanting to know whether it had been cut off. I was simply showing this
6 document to show that it was reported that it was cut off as was the case
7 with 65 ter number --
8 JUDGE KWON: So I don't see the point of putting the similar --
9 put documents. Why don't you put your question to the witness?
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: I said I would move on.
11 JUDGE KWON: I didn't hear that. Thank you.
12 MS. SUTHERLAND:
13 Q. Mr. Lubura, how long were you in Lukavica for? You said that you
14 went to Lukavica, I think on the 15th of May, 1995; is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. [Overlapping speakers] How long were you there?
17 A. I still live in Lukavica.
18 Q. Sir, in relation to the time period prior to May 1995 after you
19 left Sarajevo, dealing with what you said yesterday at transcript
20 page 31046 and 31047, that the transmission lines Sokolac-Vogosca was not
21 repaired and that you being the Bosnian Serb side were forced to connect
22 the transmission line Poljine-Pale so that you could get electricity from
23 Visegrad to Vogosca; is that right? Do you recall saying that?
24 A. Yes, and I even wrote that. We fixed the 110 kV line, and we
25 also repaired the line leading to Poljine, but from Poljine to Sarajevo 4
1 transformer station at Vogosca we never managed to repair that. That is
2 why we built one and a half kilometres on wooden pillars, and we switched
3 it to 35 voltage and thereby supplied Vogosca and parts of Ilijas with
4 the electricity from Visegrad.
5 Q. And this transition line was installed and put into operation at
6 Pretis, yes?
7 A. Pretis tasked the Vogosca municipality, and parts of Vogosca
8 municipality had power supply.
9 Q. This -- this transformer that you -- that you installed was put
10 into operation at Pretis; correct?
11 A. I don't know if Pretis was in operation or not. That was beyond
12 my remit. I never went to either Pretis factory for the TAS factory. I
13 just passed by them.
14 Q. The exhibit that was tendered through you yesterday, D02545, the
15 15th of September, 1993, document which was signed by you, doesn't that
16 state that the transformer was installed and put into operation at
18 JUDGE KWON: Why don't we show him the document.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: D02545, Your Honour -- Mr. Registrar [sic].
20 Q. Then I have one final question -- area for you, Mr. Lubura.
21 A. Yes. I see this document. I signed it at the request of the
22 Executive Committee of the Serbian municipality of Vogosca.
23 Q. Do you agree that it says that there's now 110 -- is the pipeline
24 from Pale to Pretis; is that right?
25 A. This is the Sokolac-Vogosca transmission line. It's not 110, but
1 we switched it to 35 voltage and you can see from this letter that we
2 installed --
3 Q. Installed what?
4 A. A transformer. 8 MVA transformer which was insufficient for this
5 area, but nevertheless it was beneficial for the population of Vogosca
6 and parts of Ilijas to have a continuous energy supply. The needs were
7 much higher, but this was sufficient.
8 Q. Mr. Lubura, you said on page 13 at paragraph 13 of your statement
9 that the Serbs were prepared to transmit energy from Lukavica,
10 Sarajevo 20 that is, to the substations in Dobrinja, Otoka and
11 Skenderija. But you said that the Muslims showed no interest in this
12 proposal. Are you saying that the Muslim side never agreed to repairing
13 the lines feeding these substations should be a priority?
14 A. I made this proposal to Mr. Durmic at the meetings that we had,
15 but it never materialised. And I have to say that two times 110
16 Lukavica-Skenderija transmission line hasn't been repaired to this date.
17 It is still inoperational. The rest were fixed during the war.
18 Q. Can we very quickly see 24265. This is the -- this is the
19 meeting at the Sarajevo airport on the 7th of July, 1994. And if we go
20 down it says both sides agreed -- if we can go further down the page.
21 Onto the next page. That the -- under -- under subparagraph (B). Could
22 we go to the next page, please. I'm sorry, it's on the last page. Under
23 (B) the transmission lines Jablanica-Hadzici-Blazuj and then
24 Blazuj-Famos-Lukavica and Lukavica-Otoka-Nedzarici were agreed on to be a
25 top priority.
1 A. In my previous answers I said that that was my proposal that
2 Lukavica-Otoka-Nedzarici would be a priority, but it never materialised.
3 This is only the confirmation of my testimony, because as you can see I
4 attended this meeting along with engineers Kulic and Mijatovic, and I
5 proposed that this transmission line be repaired. That was my
7 Q. But does -- this document does negate the idea that the BiH
8 didn't want to fix it. They wanted it to be a top priority. Isn't that
10 A. There is no Bosnian side. There are both sides present here.
11 Both parties agreed, and I made this proposal at this meeting to have
12 this transmission line repaired because the southern part of
13 Sarajevo Polje was supplied before the war only from the Famos
14 transformer station, and to that end I made a suggestion to -- to make
15 Lukavica-Otoka-Nedzarici transmission line so that the electricity that
16 arrived at Lukavica station from Mratinje hydro-electric plant in
17 Montenegro be transmitted to the part of Sarajevo under Muslim control.
18 As I said, while I was the manager of transmission this never happened.
19 It was repaired only after the war.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Mr. Lubura.
21 I have no further questions, Your Honour.
22 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, I actually would like to have us
23 tender 4265, the last document that was referenced.
24 JUDGE KWON: I see no problem. Shall we admit it as a Defence
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: As you wish, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Document 4265 receives number D2548,
4 Your Honours.
5 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellency, a few
7 questions directly related to the cross-examination.
8 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Let's start with the last. Mr. Lubura, the
10 question put here was whether the Muslims were interested or not in
11 restoring proper supply, and for that purpose I would need D1127, please.
12 While we are waiting, you were shown the document dated
13 29th of May, 1995, and here's another document of 15 June 1995. I'm
14 going to read it:
15 [In English] "At the very last minute, the Bosnian side this
16 afternoon rejected a proposal to restore utilities to Sarajevo. The
17 Serbian side had agreed to the necessary technical arrangements, arranged
18 by Mr. John Fawcett from the office the special co-ordinator in Sarajevo.
19 But the Bosnian side insisted on UNPROFOR control of Bacevo (Sarajevo's
20 main water pumping station, which is on Serb-controlled territory) as
21 well as ... gas supplies ..."
22 [Interpretation] Item 3 --
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Excuse me, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Sutherland.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: This is re-examination and Mr. Karadzic should
1 be putting a proposition, laying a foundation before he puts a document
2 to the witness.
3 JUDGE KWON: Fair enough. Do you understand that point,
4 Mr. Karadzic?
5 [Defence confer]
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: May the document be taken off the screen.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Mr. Lubura, if you were in favour of this -- or, rather, were you
10 in favour of having the Muslim side an uninterrupted supply of
12 A. Yes, I was. I would have slept soundly if everybody had
13 electricity. I wanted every side or both sides to have as much
14 electricity as possible. However, the technical capacities were such, so
15 we only had 20 plus 3.
16 Q. Twenty megawatts plus three for either side?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What was the reason for them not to receive any power supply --
19 or, rather, to avoid doing the repair and therefore improve the supply?
20 A. Well, that has to do with the technological capacity of
21 transmission lines that were operational. They could not allow any
22 increase. I don't know how many generators were working in Kakanj, so
23 technologically speaking, it was impossible to increase it, because the
24 transformer station in Kiseljak was also supplied from the same source,
25 and they also needed to 20 or 30 megawatts.
1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Lubura, because both of you are speaking the
2 same language and which are to be translated into English and French,
3 please speak slowly and put a pause before you start answering the
5 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. During cross-examination it was suggested to you that the Serbian
8 party intentionally cut off electricity to the Muslim part of Sarajevo.
9 How could this -- this have been achieved? Who did the Serbian side have
10 to ask to have this completed?
11 A. They would have to ask me, because I was the manager of the
12 Ilidza plant. Only me and no one else.
13 Q. Have you ever received such a request?
14 A. No, I haven't, neither from the military nor from the civilian
15 authorities. Mr. President, I was answerable to the general director of
16 Elektroprivreda of Republika Srpska and his assistant for technical
17 affairs, the manager who was in the head office in Banja Luka, and these
18 were the only people that I reported to.
19 Q. I'm waiting for the interpretation. Today you mentioned that the
20 Muslim side was not interested in a few lines and branches. Do you know
21 that the Muslim side was engaged in sabotaging the provision of
23 A. Everything that we agreed at the Sarajevo airport we tried to put
24 into practice. I said it was my proposal to fix the
25 Lukavica-Otoka-Nedzarici line which was a project that was never
1 implemented. I also know that sometime in the summer of 1995 the Muslims
2 built transformer station in Zovik, and by means of an overhead line they
3 reached Igman, then they installed a 110 kV cable downwards and in my
4 assessment that provided them with about 80 megawatts of electricity from
5 the Jablanica hydro-electric power plant.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I show the document now to the
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Sutherland. Do you have any observations?
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour, the document's dated the
11 15th of June, 1995, at which time the witness said that he wasn't in
12 Sarajevo at that time.
13 JUDGE KWON: That's the point, Mr. Robinson, you raised.
14 MR. ROBINSON: I made that same point to Dr. Karadzic.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But I'm interested in the
16 phenomenon that Mr. Lubura was discussing and that is that the opposing
17 side was sabotaging these attempts and it can shed some more light on the
18 document of 29th of May of that same year.
19 JUDGE KWON: You can't have it both ways. That document is
20 already in evidence, and there's no need for you to tender it, but you
21 can just put your case or your question to the witness.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Today in cross-examination you were asked a number of questions
25 relating to the requests by the Serbian side for reciprocity -- or,
1 rather, concessions so that something be done for them in order for them
2 to allow something, and reference was made to document P896 in which the
3 Serbian side requested first combat operations to be suspended and then
4 the utilities could be repaired. Why was it necessary to suspend combat
6 A. Well, look, we couldn't go out into the field if the war was
7 going on. All our technicians would get killed. We needed a cease-fire,
8 and we needed approval from both sides for our crews to go out and repair
9 the transmission lines. I was concerned about the lives and safety of my
10 men, because I didn't have too many of them, and therefore I had to have
11 100 per cent guarantees by UNPROFOR that there would be no shooting and
12 that we can do our work under such conditions.
13 Q. Thank you. Western Bosnia or Republika Srpska or the Banja Luka,
14 Krajina, did they receive power from Jablanica? And was this question
15 ever raised as a matter of reciprocity or a proposal to strike a balance?
16 A. I was in charge only for the Ilidza plant, but since my head
17 office was in Banja Luka, I was aware of their problems, too, and I was
18 personally involved in the building of the so-called Posavski lines
19 through the corridor running between Brcko and Modrica. We built two or
20 three transmission lines in order to have power for Banja Luka from
21 Ugljevik. Banja Luka and Bosanska Krajina as well.
22 Q. Thank you. Since you were in charge of Ilidza, in August of 1992
23 were you at Ilidza?
24 A. Yes. I arrived at Ilidza in August, and I had come from Pale.
25 Q. Did the Muslim side ever shell the water and gas and other supply
2 A. Well, the major disruption in the supply of electricity and water
3 for both the Muslim and the Serbian parts of Sarajevo took place in
4 December -- or, rather, the 12th of December when we were shelled from
5 Igman. According to the information that we received over the radio from
6 our electrician on duty, that had been ordered by Juka Prazina. At that
7 time --
8 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Yes, Mr. Lubura.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: [Overlapping speakers]
10 JUDGE KWON: Where did it rise from the cross-examination? And I
11 also note your -- yes, Ms. Sutherland.
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: That was my point, Your Honour. It doesn't
13 arise from cross-examination.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, during
15 cross-examination it was disputed that the Muslim side sabotaged. It was
16 put that the Serbian side cut off supply intentionally. Page 13, lines 6
17 and 7.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, we're talking about supply of
19 electricity, not the shelling.
20 JUDGE KWON: This is separate. It's a separate matter,
21 Mr. Karadzic. Please move on to another topic.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, very well. I
23 will move on. I just wanted to see whether the Serbs indeed did that or
24 was it simply a result of shelling, because shelling causes damage, and
25 we have proof. If you give me one minute, I'll show you D1246.
1 JUDGE KWON: As a matter of fact, you already gave evidence
2 yourself. I don't see the point of continuing this way.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I dispute the Prosecution position
4 that the Serbs were cutting off supply, whereas we have proof that it was
5 not so.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE BAIRD: Dr. Karadzic, can you assist us with what aspect of
8 the cross that this would be pertaining to.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, Madam Sutherland
10 suggested to the witness that it was the Serbs who intentionally cut off
11 water and electricity supply to the Muslim part of Sarajevo. We have
12 proof, however, that it happened as a result of shelling, that it was not
13 intentional. And it goes directly to what the Prosecution stated and
14 confirms the witnesses words in his statement. On the other hand, on
15 page 13 that we pointed out, it had to do with whether the Muslims wanted
16 to have it fixed or did they sabotage such repairs so as to increase the
17 plight of the inhabitants of Sarajevo. The document speaks to it as well
18 as some other documents we have.
19 JUDGE BAIRD: Ms. Sutherland.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: [Microphone not activated] Your Honour, we
21 haven't heard evidence --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: We haven't heard evidence from this witness at
24 all about the shelling. It's not part of cross-examination, and
25 Mr. Karadzic shouldn't be allowed to re-examine on this issue.
1 JUDGE BAIRD: But do you agree that it was suggested to the
2 witness that it was the Serbs who had intentionally cut off water and
3 electricity supplies to the Muslims?
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. The documents that I put to
5 the witness clearly show that. I put that to the witness, yes.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber sees the point of Mr. Karadzic's
8 submissions. We allow the question.
9 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please look at D1127
11 briefly, which is two weeks following the document shown by the
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, this --
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If this is --
15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, we dealt with the document. Instead
16 of putting the document, why don't you put the question to the witness
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: And, Your Honour --
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: -- with respect, this is something that
21 Mr. Karadzic should have done in his case in chief if he wanted to elicit
22 this sort of information from the witness.
23 JUDGE KWON: In his examination-in-chief, witness said that he
24 was never ordered to cut off the electricity and others, and in your
25 cross-examination it was put to the witness Serbs intentionally cut off
1 electricity and water, et cetera.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, that was the summary that
3 Mr. Karadzic was reading out to the witness.
4 JUDGE KWON: Para 17 of his statement.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes. I put that to him.
6 JUDGE KWON: So we allow the question suggested by Mr. Karadzic
7 in his previous submission. Let us continue.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we have a look at
9 D -- sorry, I put a question to you.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. I asked you about the reasons for the supply being cut off for
12 Sarajevo. In 1992 you were in Ilidza. You held the position you had in
13 your company. Were there any cases of force majeure? Were there any
14 cases of combat resulting in the cutting off of supplies due to shelling
15 or infantry fighting?
16 A. I believe I said yesterday that there were two types of failures
17 at -- at transformer stations, the so-called physical failures or
18 failures of the equipment. Physical failures mainly happened due to
19 combat. Lines were destroyed, isolation was destroyed, et cetera. Those
20 were physical failures which required between five and seven days of
22 Q. Thank you. Can we next look at D1246. Was there any connection
23 between the supply of water and the supply of electricity?
24 A. Yes. Most of the water is brought by pumps. I think there were
25 13 in Bacevo and Komovsi [phoen]. They pumped the water to the central
1 reservoir from which it was distributed to the Mojmilo reservoir
2 supplying the city of Sarajevo. If the transformer station at Blazuj had
3 no electricity, the pumps were not operational, resulting in the fact
4 that there was no water. However, Ilidza didn't have water as well in
5 such cases; in other words, both the Serbs and Muslims were out of water
6 in such cases.
7 Q. Can you read out the first sentence where it says that Ilidza
8 makes the following decision. Who is going to have their water supply
9 cut off due to the shelling?
10 JUDGE KWON: Again, it's a way of conducting the re-examination
11 in a leading way. I think that's the point you're rising,
12 Ms. Sutherland?
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour, two reasons: For that and
14 also for -- what has the supply of water -- the connection between the
15 supply of water and the supply of electricity got to do with the
17 JUDGE KWON: Did you not suggest to the witness that Serbs had
18 cut off electricity and water intentionally?
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE KWON: Just instead of putting the document, why don't you
21 lead some foundation before you show the document to the witness.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think I have when I asked him
23 whether the supply of water was in any way connected with the supply of
24 electricity, and before that I asked him for the reasons of damage, and
25 this is what this document speaks of.
1 JUDGE KWON: I don't think you did that. You said that after
2 showing the document.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may, I would ask the witness
4 if this tallies with his knowledge of the situation.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the 4th of August, I
6 believe. I wasn't there at the time. I arrived in Ilidza on the
7 15th of August. Mr. Despotovic was the facility manager at the time.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Thank you. Did you know what the position was of the state
10 leadership vis-a-vis supplying civilians on both sides?
11 A. Twice or thrice I was a member of the delegation headed by deputy
12 prime minister, late Professor Koljevic. I know that he always used to
13 say that we have to make life easier for both sides in the time of war,
14 making sure that they both had enough electricity, water, gas, et cetera.
15 Q. Thank you. Could we look at D104, please. Please cast a look at
16 this directive of mine from March 1993 and tell us whether the gist of
17 the directive is in keeping with what you could observe concerning our
18 position in terms of supply.
19 A. Yes. Yes. This only confirms my testimony. We never
20 intentionally cut off electricity or water unilaterally. Even where
21 repairs were needed, we tried to make things operational as quickly as
23 Q. Thank you. Do you know whether the ministries of the RS
24 government undertook certain measures to ensure the supply of Sarajevo?
25 A. Yes, they did. They assisted us. Our basic problem was fuel.
1 Through the government, we received certain amounts of fuel, and UNPROFOR
2 frequently helped in that regard too. As I said, we had to maintain over
3 250 kilometres of transmission lines. We had fuel expenses, salaries,
4 et cetera, and the government helped us out.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have D116.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honours, is Mr. Karadzic going to put a
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This has to do with the question I
10 put concerning the ministries and their efforts.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Do you know who Borivoje Sendic was?
13 A. I met him concerning the Ugljevik-Zvornik transmission line. I
14 believe he was the minister of agriculture with his seat in Bijeljina.
15 Q. Thank you. D116, please. Could you read out the title for the
16 Chamber. What was the subject of this meeting? And I was informed about
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. What is the subject?
20 A. Delivery of drinking water to Sarajevo. The date is the
21 18th of July, 1993. A meeting was held in Pale between the
22 representatives of this ministry and water supply companies in the area
23 of Sarajevo's Serbian municipalities. The topic of the meeting was the
24 supply of drinking water to the part of Sarajevo chiefly populated by
25 Muslims but which also has a large number of Serbian citizens who are
1 practically imprisoned in this city.
2 Should I go on?
3 Q. Yes. The next item, the one pertaining to electricity.
4 A. Let me see. Electricity.
5 Q. It says the main conclusion, and then we have the supply.
6 A. I can't make this out.
7 Q. No, just below that.
8 A. The supply of electricity to pump stations is not continuous;
9 i.e., interruptions in supplying pump stations with electricity are
10 frequent and are chiefly caused by the war operations of the Muslim
12 Q. Thank you. So as not to go on reading --
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Sutherland.
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: That was the point I was going to make,
15 Your Honour, about the witness just simply reading out the document which
16 is already an exhibit.
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Time for you to put a question, Mr. Karadzic.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. How does this fit into what you knew about the efforts of the
20 authorities of Republika Srpska to provide supplies to Sarajevo?
21 A. In my view, all of these documents are positive, favourable;
22 namely, that both electricity and water were regularly sent to the Muslim
23 part of Sarajevo.
24 Q. Thank you. Can we see the next page.
25 JUDGE KWON: At least you need to pause after the -- until the
1 interpreting is over, Mr. Karadzic.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do apologise.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Mr. Lubura, please, can you read the handwritten part down here
5 where my signature is.
6 A. "I agree. R. Karadzic."
7 Q. Thank you. I have no further questions, Mr. Lubura. Thank you.
8 A. Thank you, too.
9 JUDGE KWON: Well --
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. And in the translation of this document, we do not see who it is
12 that gave his agreement.
13 A. "I agree," or "in agreement. R. Karadzic," Radovan Karadzic.
14 Your signature; isn't that right?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But it's not in the translation who
16 it was that gave his agreement.
17 JUDGE KWON: Usually the signature is not translated, but you
18 have evidence now.
19 Mr. Lubura, that concludes your evidence. On behalf of the
20 Chamber, I thank you for your coming to The Hague to give it. Now you're
21 free to go.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.
23 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Shall we rise altogether? Yes,
24 Ms. Sutherland.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour, because Ms. Gustafson's taking
1 the next witness so we would need to swap. So perhaps taking an early
2 break would be a good idea.
3 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We'll have a break for half an hour.
4 We'll rise all together.
5 We'll have a break and resume at 10 to 11.00.
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 --- Recess taken at 10.18 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.
9 [The witness entered court]
10 JUDGE KWON: Would the witness take the solemn declaration.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
12 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
13 WITNESS: BRANKO RADAN
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Radan. Please be seated and make
16 yourself comfortable.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
21 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Radan.
22 A. Good morning.
23 Q. Did you give the Defence team a statement?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you. Could we please have 1D8609 [as interpreted] in
1 e-court. And I would kindly ask you that we both pause so that the
2 interpreters would accurately interpret what is being said. So please
3 pause before answering my questions.
4 1D6809. Thank you.
5 Mr. Radan, do you see this statement before you on the screen?
6 A. Yes, I do.
7 Q. Have you read this statement, and did you sign it then?
8 A. Yes, I read it and signed it.
9 Q. Thank you. Does it accurately reflect what you said to the
10 Defence team?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. If I were to put the same questions to you today were your
13 answers basically be the same?
14 A. Fully. They would be absolutely the same.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I would like to
17 tender this statement as well as the associated documents, package
18 92 ter. I would like to have it admitted.
19 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, also there are two documents only
20 to be tendered, and we would ask that they be added to our 65 ter list as
21 we didn't have them on our list at the time this witness gave his
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Gustafson.
24 MS. GUSTAFSON: Yes, Your Honours. I have a partial objection to
25 the admission of the statement. In paragraph 8 of the statement there
1 are three documents referenced. The first of those documents is a
2 collection of minutes from local board meetings. That collection of
3 documents has not been tendered, but the first half of that -- of
4 paragraph 8 basically consists of the witness's description of those
5 documents and conclusions about what those documents say. So if the
6 documents themselves aren't being tendered, the witness's description and
7 conclusions in relation to those documents should be redacted, and I know
8 in addition I would not be able to cross-examine the witness on those
9 assertions in any event because those documents are not translated.
10 So I would ask for the first half of paragraph 8 to be redacted.
11 Other than that, there's no objection to the statement.
12 In terms of the associated exhibits, I have no objection to them
13 per se. I note that they are both wrongly described in the statement as
14 minutes of the Novo Sarajevo SDS Municipal Board. In fact, one -- the
15 first document is minutes of a meeting of the Hrasno Brdo local board,
16 and the second is a report from the Nikola Tesla local board.
17 If the Defence is willing to stipulate that the documents are not
18 what they purport to be in the statement, I have no objection to their
19 admission, although I raise it in the event Your Honours would like the
20 accused to clarify that in direct examination with the witness. Thank
22 JUDGE KWON: Can we see 1D6297 briefly.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's not the same.
24 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Gustafson said that there's no translation. I
25 was denied access to the document.
1 MR. ROBINSON: What's being shown on the screen is actually not
2 the translation of the document that's of the 65 ter number that you
3 asked for.
4 MS. GUSTAFSON: Your Honour, I believe that the translation on
5 the screen is a translation of one of the documents within the 70-page
6 collection but not the first document, which is why the two documents
7 don't match.
8 This is the -- this translation that we see is the document
9 1D6810, which is being tendered, and uploaded in e-court in terms of
10 translations is only this document, and there are no others. So this
11 document in the collection is untranslated.
12 JUDGE KWON: Now I have understood your point with which I agree.
13 So in order for you to tender the statement, including the first half of
14 the -- this paragraph, para 8, you need to lead live with the witness and
15 deal with the 1D6297.
16 MR. ROBINSON: Yes. We're not planning to do that,
17 Mr. President, so we can redact the first half of that paragraph.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Then we'll admit -- we'll admit the
19 92 ter statement with the redaction of first half of para 8 as well as
20 the other two associated exhibits.
21 THE REGISTRAR: The statement document 1D06809 receives number
22 D2549, Your Honours. Document 1D06810 receives number D2550, and
23 document 1D06811 receives number D2551, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Now I'd like to read
1 out the summary of Mr. Radan's statement in the English language:
2 [In English] Branko Radan was born in Topljik, Novo Sarajevo
3 municipality. He served in the Yugoslav People's Army as an ordinary
4 soldier in Nis. Before the war he worked in a number of companies and
5 when the war started he was working as a representative of Ozrenka of
6 Gracanica. He then served as president of the executive authority in
7 Novo Sarajevo municipality.
8 After the multi-party elections he noticed the boundaries between
9 the people of the three nationalities become thicker and deeper. There
10 were already talks about the arming of Muslims and the formation of units
11 as the Green Berets and Patriotic League. He saw groups of young men
12 wearing green berets walking around town and shots fired from infantry
13 weapons were heard in the evening. Unlike the Muslims and Croats,
14 Serbs -- the Serbs were not arming and preparing for war.
15 At the start of the war, Branko Radan was president of the
16 executive authority, Executive Board of Novo Sarajevo municipality.
17 Municipal authorities took the stand that there must not be any
18 discrimination and, in particular, no torture or abuse of the non-Serbian
19 population and security should be guaranteed to all. There was a group
20 of nine Serbian men who created major problems for Muslims and Croats in
21 the area. The executive authority, following several meetings, requested
22 and demanded that the nine men be removed from the Grbavica area by the
23 local police organs. Whatever humanitarian aid arrived in the
24 municipality, it was distributed equally among the different ethnicities
25 in the municipality.
1 Grbavica was shelled from the Muslim side with increasing
2 frequency from Velesici, particularly causing many civilian casualties.
3 Most victims were killed by sniper fire from the Muslim side with
4 positions in Debelo Brdo and tall civilian buildings across the river.
5 For protection against that, the inhabitants of Grbavica used to erect
6 blinds several metres high and made out of blankets in some streets
7 behind which the pedestrians could move unobserved. There were no
8 reprisals against the Muslim civilian population in the municipality.
9 Due to the difficult material situation of the people, the
10 executive authority made use of the humanitarian aid to organise people's
11 kitchen, public kitchen, where the Serbs', Muslims' and Croats'
12 households obtained food without any problem.
13 And that would be the summary, but I would pose few additional
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Mr. Radan, I have a few more questions to put to you in this
17 examination-in-chief. First of all about the SDS and the municipal
18 organs of Novo Sarajevo: Who won the first multi-party election in the
19 municipality of Novo Sarajevo?
20 A. At the first multi-party elections in Novo Sarajevo, SDS won and
21 received most of the votes.
22 Q. Thank you. Do you remember what the outcome was for the SDA in
23 that parliament?
24 A. I think that it was in third or fourth place in terms of the
25 number of votes obtained.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
2 come closer to the microphone.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. I'm waiting for the interpretation. I kindly ask you to do the
6 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Radan, could you kindly come closer to the
7 microphone so that the interpreters could hear you better.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Should I repeat my last answer?
9 I -- I think that the SDA came third or fourth.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Thank you. I also kindly ask you to pause before answering my
12 question. Who was the first president of the Municipal Board of the SDS
13 in Novo Sarajevo, and how did this inter-party life function in this
14 Municipal Board?
15 A. When things happen for the first time, as they did in the
16 multi-party elections, very often the president of the Municipal Board
17 changed. The first one was Mr. Savo Lala, then after that, if need be I
18 can tell you, it was Milivoje Savarkapa who was not satisfactory. The
19 name itself says that it's supposed to be a democratic party, the Serb
20 Democratic Party, but there was no democracy. There was no respect. So
21 he was replaced and then Dr. Milivoje --
22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the last name.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- came to replace him.
24 JUDGE KWON: The interpreters were not able to hear the last
25 one's name.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Finally it was Dr. Milivoje Prijic
2 that was selected as president of the Municipal Board of the SDS.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Thank you. These changes that took place in the Municipal Board,
5 did they take place under some influence from the headquarters of the
7 A. The headquarters of the SDS did not interfere, and did not
8 exercise any influence in terms of the elections in our municipality.
9 However, at the proposal of ten boards of the Serb Democratic Party in
10 local communes we asked the leadership headed by President Karadzic to
11 come and attend our session on the 6th of February at the municipality
12 building. This is the municipality of Novo Sarajevo. We wished to
13 present our views and our problems, and we wanted to reach a democratic
14 agreement as to who the officeholder will be, who the president of the
15 Municipal Board of the SDS will be.
16 Q. Can you tell us what the year was?
17 A. 1992, the 6th of February.
18 Q. At this meeting did I interfere with who it would be, or did I
19 impose what a solution would be to that question? Did I impose any
20 particular name?
21 A. You and the other leaders who came with you heard us out at that
22 session, and then in a democratic and conciliatory fashion you
23 recommended that the majority that was in favour of Milivoje Prijic
24 should win and that then Mr. Milivoje Prijic would be the president of
25 the Municipal Board of the SDS; that is to say that you did not interfere
1 at municipal level in this selection of the president of the Municipal
2 Board of the SDS.
3 Q. Thank you. In the municipality of Novo Sarajevo, was there a
4 Crisis Staff, and if so, when was it established?
5 A. The Crisis Staff was established after the first barricades
6 appeared on the 1st of March, 1992, when the conflict escalated, the
7 conflict among the three sides, or basically between the two sides, the
8 Serb and the Muslim sides. After Gardovic, a member of the wedding party
9 in Bascarsija was killed, barricades were set up, and after these
10 barricades nothing was the same any longer, and it became necessary to
11 organise a Crisis Staff because there was no communication with the seat
12 of the municipality that had been dislocated; that is to say we did not
13 manage to use the resources of the municipal government, and that is why
14 the Crisis Staff was established sometime in mid-March 1992.
15 Q. Thank you. Who headed this Crisis Staff?
16 A. The first and only president of the Crisis Staff of the
17 municipality of Novo Sarajevo was Mr. Radomir Neskovic.
18 Q. What happened with the regular authorities in the municipality of
19 Novo Sarajevo from April until June?
20 A. Well, as for this structure that had been elected after the
21 multi-party elections, the president of the Municipal Board was
22 originally Montenegrin. He went to Montenegro, and it was only the
23 secretary of the municipality, Mr. Mirko Sarovic, who remained in our
24 territory. We had to elect new authorities, and that happened on the
25 5th of May, 1992, at the recommendation of the Crisis Staff.
1 Q. Who was elected?
2 A. As I said, at the recommendation of the president and Crisis
3 Staff, Mr. Danilo Skrba was elected President of the Executive Board. I
4 was the vice-president of the Executive Board, and there were four other
5 persons who were elected as members of the Executive Board, and they were
6 in charge of different matters.
7 Q. Thank you. Until the 5th of May, what was the task of the
8 Crisis Staff before the selection?
9 A. It -- in the turbulent situation in Novo Sarajevo and
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the task of the Crisis Staff was to prevent the
11 anarchy that seemed to be in the making. The population was supposed to
12 be told that they would be protected in a certain way and effort was to
13 be made to prevent any kind of chaos, and I believe that the Crisis Staff
14 considerably succeeded in that regard.
15 Q. Thank you. So when were the regular authority organs set up and
16 which ones?
17 A. I said I already said that on the 5th of May, 1992, the
18 Executive Committee was established and its task was to gradually
19 undertake the work of the Crisis Staff, which I think basically was also
20 the will of the Crisis Staff. And the Executive Committee did well in
21 assuming those duties so that the Crisis Staff remained operational for
22 only one month, that is to say until the end of May 1992.
23 Q. Thank you. Were there any other changes in the government or
24 authorities and the Executive Committee?
25 A. The first changes took place in July when Mr. Danilo Skrba went
1 to take a new office and at the Assembly session new candidates were
2 proposed for the president of the Executive Committee. I was among the
3 nominees, and then on the 12th of July at the Assembly session, I was
4 elected as president of the Executive Committee. My counter-candidate
5 was Mr. Radomir Neskovic, and after that we set up an Executive Committee
6 that became fully operational.
7 Q. Thank you. Did anyone from the leadership try to impose a
8 decision who would be elected president of the Executive Committee? Did
9 anyone try to impose any kind of solutions in that respect?
10 A. At this session we were honoured by the presence of the late
11 Dr. Nikola Koljevic, vice-president of the republic, and
12 Mr. Petko Cancar, the president of the electoral commission, the
13 Commissioner Dragan Djukanovic. And by being present there, they lent
14 importance to the election of the new municipal leadership. I did not
15 notice any other interferences or pressures.
16 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us if you encountered any security
17 problems in your municipality as of the date when the conflict broke out?
18 A. I said that we had been trying the whole time to prevent anarchy.
19 That is a normal phenomenon under such circumstances, so we were no
20 exception. We tried in every possible way, because we lived mostly in
21 the urban part of the city with all three ethnic communities. We wanted
22 to protect everybody who remained with us. We had a huge problem with a
23 group that came from outside, meaning that they were not locals. We had
24 problems with them because they were maltreating and harassing our
25 citizens of Muslim and Croat ethnicity. Therefore, we constantly pointed
1 out to these happenings, and at our regular meetings that took place at
2 least once a week, the civilian authorities, the police, and the army
3 underlined, although I was not able to give any tasks to anyone, we made
4 a joint effort to remove those nine persons who were constantly causing
5 problems. And amongst them was Veselin Vlahovic, aka Batko, who was the
7 Q. Thank you. These nine persons, did they enjoy any support from
8 the authorities?
9 A. I already said that we could not support these individuals in any
10 way whatsoever, quite the opposite. We did our best to remove them from
11 our territory and prevent them from causing problems, and I think that we
12 managed to do that step-by-step, to remove them from our territory.
13 Q. Thank you. Were they alone or did they have their groups that
14 were gathering around them?
15 A. Well, those were groups. Such people easily find followers.
16 There was some kind of vested interest that they had. Whether that was
17 material gain or something else, I don't know, but I don't think that
18 they were doing it for the interest of nationality.
19 Q. At what time of day did they engage in commission of such acts?
20 A. Well, due to the situation that prevailed at the time, a curfew
21 was imposed banning anyone from moving during the night with the
22 exception of police and military police. The civilians were prohibited
23 from moving around, and that was usually the time when they broke the law
24 and this regulation. So they were active during the night when no one
25 was able to prevent them from doing so except the victims themselves.
1 Q. Did you personally have any problems with these groups?
2 A. Well, you see, I did have problems. After my idea and my
3 intention became known to engage the police and the army to help us
4 remove them from our municipality, shortly after that in front of the
5 municipal building my car was riddled with bullets. Somebody shot at it
6 in broad daylight, in plain view of the passers-by. After that, the
7 military police arrived, arrested the offender, took him to the prison at
8 Kula, but only a few days after that he was released.
9 Q. Thank you. You said that they gradually disappeared from the
10 area. Were they interconnected or were they acting independently? Did
11 they disappear group by group?
12 A. Well, they acted independently. Batko was not connected to
13 anyone, not the army or anyone else. He was a freelancer. The one who
14 shot at my car and another one who killed a soldier, father of three,
15 without any reason whatsoever, I'm talking about Mr. Zoran Lackovic, was
16 incarcerated at Kula. But upon his release somebody took revenge on him,
17 whether it was the soldiers or companions of Zoran Lackovic, but they
18 avenged the death of their colleague, and the perpetrator was killed.
19 Q. Thank you. How long did you stay in the post of the president of
20 the Executive Committee?
21 A. Until the 12th of March, 1993.
22 Q. Who succeeded you?
23 A. I was succeeded by Captain Budimir Obradovic, the deceased
24 Budimir Obradovic.
25 Q. What happened to him?
1 A. Budimir Obradovic wanted to introduce even a higher degree of
2 discipline in our municipality. Since those who did not want discipline
3 and order resented this, in his office in the municipal building,
4 Mr. Budo Obradovic was assassinated.
5 Q. Were you and Mr. Obradovic as executive branch, did you enjoy
6 support among the municipal organs to impose law and order?
7 A. Yes, we did have support, because regular reports were being
8 received from the ground either from the military organs or through
9 municipal channels. So we had communication, and we enjoyed full support
10 of our intentions and our actions on the ground.
11 Q. Thank you. In September 1992, was there a significant relocation
12 of the population in Novo Sarajevo municipality, and if so, can you
13 please tell us?
14 A. Yes. On the 30th of September, 1992, in the early morning hours
15 there are some estimates that about 300 Muslim citizens crossed over the
16 bridge on the Vrbanja and went to the territory of the federation -- or,
17 rather, under the control of their forces. Since I wasn't personally
18 present there but I nevertheless reacted immediately by talking to the
19 police and inquired about this incident, I was told that that happened
20 with the inhabitants who were living on the front line in
21 Jevrejsko Groblje, Gornja Kovacici and Donji Kovacici, and on a daily
22 basis there was shooting, fighting, shelling in that area. The Serbian
23 forces were holding defence positions. They had moved their families
24 further back in order to provide safety, but the Muslims stayed in their
25 houses and they were behind the VRS. In order for them to be safer, I
1 don't know who agreed on that or whether they organised themselves, they
2 decided to cross over to the other side.
3 As far as I know, no pressure was exerted. Nothing was done
4 under coercion, and people moved across. So I think that it was an
5 organised move and that it was a satisfactory move, and I have proof in
6 the incident that took place on the 15th of November when 15 buses of
7 Serbs crossed across -- passed across our territory and went to Belgrade.
8 So there was some kind of goodwill there, and there was a response from
9 our side.
10 Q. Thank you. The Muslim civilians living along the confrontation
11 line, did they have any other alternative to be safe? What could they
12 have done?
13 A. Well, they could have withdrawn, but believe me, Grbavica was
14 fully packed with refugees. All the vacant premises were filled by
15 people, flats and all other residential areas. So there was very little
16 possibility to provide shelter elsewhere for those people living on the
17 front line.
18 Q. Thank you. Did any Muslims remain at Grbavica, those who weren't
19 living along the confrontation line?
20 A. Yes. According to some estimates, between 3 -- 1.350 and 1.500
21 inhabitants remained, and they enjoyed all the same rights in terms of
22 humanitarian aid, medical assistance and security. We tried to provide
23 identical conditions for them as the ones accorded to the Serbs and
24 Croats. So as I said, between 1.350 and 1.500 of them remained.
25 Q. Did they stay there until the end of the war?
1 A. Yes, until reintegration took place.
2 Q. You said that they were treated in an equal manner. How were
3 they treated with in terms of acquired rights; for example, the rights to
4 a pension?
5 A. As far as that is concerned, following my election in
6 June of 1992 as the president of the Executive Committee, I immediately
7 launched an initiative to gather reliable information about the rights
8 acquired prior to the war. So anyone who was able to prove that they
9 were entitled to a pension, whether they were Muslims, Serbs, or Croats,
10 could provide such certificates and they were eligible to receive
11 pension. So there was no discrimination against anyone in that respect.
12 That also applied to medical services, distribution of humanitarian aid,
13 soup kitchens. Just like everybody else, they were entitled to receive
15 Q. Thank you. What would happen if a retired person did not submit
16 the necessary documents in time?
17 A. All those who failed to provide proper documents and information
18 in time regarding their rights to pension could enjoy this, and they
19 would receive back pay for the period that they were delayed, and they
20 were on equal footing as the others who applied in time.
21 Q. Did humanitarian aid cross the territory of your municipality,
22 the one directed to the Muslim part?
23 A. Well, that was one of the way to cross it, because the road on
24 Trebevic was closed. Humanitarian aid was delivered on a regular basis
25 and in the quantities required, and there were no disturbances in that
1 manner. In May there was a humanitarian aid convoy of some eight tractor
2 trailers, and the esteemed cardinal Veljko Peulic [as interpreted] was in
3 the delegation escorting these convoys, and they crossed over to the
4 other territory without any problems. So there was other convoys
5 escorted by Colonel Zarkovic, who was our liaison officer with UNPROFOR,
6 and they ensured that they would reach their destination securely.
7 Q. I think you said cardinal Vinko Peulic.
8 A. Yes. He was a member of the delegation.
9 Q. Thank you. Did at any point the humanitarian aid delivery became
11 A. Well, that became most prominent before some major holidays.
12 Everyone who had anyone in Sarajevo wanted to send some stuff that would
13 help people to celebrate their holidays, and this usually happened in
14 November, December, and January, and I'm talking about the end of 1992
15 and beginning of 1993 when the humanitarian aid reached Lukavica, but the
16 Muslim forces did not give them permission to pass through Sarajevo.
17 After several pleas, we had to unload this stuff in the warehouse of
18 Energoinvest, and when the permission was granted, it was sent to
19 Sarajevo. However, this permission was never given, and it stayed there
20 until January for three months and it went off, most of it.
21 Q. Was there any attempt on the part of the population of Grbavica,
22 non-Serb population and Muslims, to cross to the other side?
23 A. Yes. They thought that they could reunite with their families
24 and have better living conditions, but there were no expulsions carried
25 out by us. All of this was done by so-called freelancers who wanted to
1 help both sides and help people to get across to the other territory.
2 Q. I'm not sure that the term "slobadni strelci" can be translated
3 as "freelance" person. What do you mean when you say that?
4 A. Usually such people had ham radio stations, usually taxi drivers
5 who could communicate with the other side, who could establish contact,
6 and then they made agreements to have one-for-one exchanges or to try and
7 entertain the requests of one or the other side. It was not done in an
8 organised fashion. That is why I called those people freelance.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further
10 questions at this point, your Excellencies.
11 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
12 Mr. Radan, as you have noted, most of your evidence was admitted
13 in writing, i.e., your statement in lieu of your oral testimony. Now you
14 will be cross-examined by the representative of the
15 Office of the Prosecutor, Ms. Gustafson.
16 Please continue.
17 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honours, and just to alert the
18 Chamber, I will do my best to move as efficiently as I can. I estimated
19 an hour for this witness. I've been given 45 minutes, but since my
20 estimate, I -- there has been substantial new information elicited by the
21 accused, and had I known that, my estimate would have been longer. Like
22 I said, I will do my best, but I alert the Chamber now I may need to ask
23 for some additional time.
24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Duly noted. Please proceed.
25 Cross-examination by Ms. Gustafson:
1 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Radan. Just to get the chronology of your
2 positions clear, you became president of the Novo Sarajevo
3 Executive Board in July 1992. Prior to that I understand you were the
4 vice-president of the Executive Board, and you became vice-president in
5 May 1992; is that right?
6 A. Yes, on the 5th of May 1992.
7 Q. And prior to that appointment in May of 1992, is it correct that
8 you had no official position in the municipality?
9 A. You are correct. I didn't.
10 Q. Okay. And Dr. Milivoje Prijic, he was the president of
11 Novo Sarajevo municipality during the same period of time that you were
12 president of the Executive Board; is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. At paragraph 7 of your statement, you said that:
15 "Unlike the Muslims and Croats, the Serbs were not preparing for
16 war because they were convinced that they will remain in the federal
17 state of Yugoslavia, where for them peace was guaranteed."
18 By the term "preparing for war," were you referring to activities
19 such as arming or preparing armed units for their engagement?
20 A. Yes. Preparing armed units for conflict. Much earlier than
21 anyone else, the Muslims organised themselves in the Patriotic League and
22 the Green Berets, whereas the Serb side was doing nothing in that respect
23 at the time.
24 Q. Okay --
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If Mr. Radan does not have a hard
1 copy of his statement before him, perhaps it may be of assistance if I
2 provided him with one, and Ms. Gustafson can carry on more efficiently.
3 JUDGE KWON: Do you have your statement with you, Mr. Radan?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. No. I was told that the rules
5 would not allow that.
6 MS. GUSTAFSON:
7 Q. Mr. Radan, just in relation to your last answer, the Chamber has
8 received evidence that at a meeting in December 1991, Mr. Karadzic
9 distributed secret instructions for the organisation and operation of the
10 organs of the Serbian people in emergency conditions to municipal SDS
11 officials, and I refer to the evidence P5 and P2568 at transcript
12 page 16656.
13 And the stated purpose for issuing those instructions was the
14 suspicion that Bosnia would be taken out of Yugoslavia, and that's page 1
15 of P5.
16 Now, you said that the Serbs were convinced that they would
17 remain in Yugoslavia, and that is why they weren't preparing for war.
18 Were you aware at the time that the SDS leadership issued these
19 instructions in December of 1991 to municipal SDS authorities?
20 A. Let me tell you this: I became a member of the Municipal Board
21 or the local commune board in the Vraca local commune in December 1991.
22 Up until that time, I received all information from the media. In other
23 words, I was not active in the work of the party, and I was not able to
24 get by these -- this information that you referred to. Everything I
25 learned was learned through following Assembly sessions, public addresses
1 and communiques from both -- from all sides. At the time, I interpreted
2 such information in my own way. I was in no position to hear about these
3 instructions issued by Mr. Karadzic provided to the local boards.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have a reference? Where
5 does it say that I had them distributed?
6 MS. GUSTAFSON: I provided that reference. It was P2568 at
7 transcript page 16656.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It don't say that I distributed it
9 by hand.
10 MS. GUSTAFSON: If it doesn't, then I apologise. If it was
11 distributed at a meeting chaired by Mr. Karadzic.
12 Q. Now, you --
13 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Let's proceed.
14 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you.
15 Q. Mr. Radan, you stated earlier in your evidence that the
16 Novo Sarajevo Crisis Staff was formed in mid-March 1992. Were you -- I
17 take it, then, you were unaware that there was an earlier Crisis Staff
18 formed in your municipality pursuant to these December 1991 instructions,
19 and I refer there to P2575.
20 A. I wasn't familiar with that. I know what happened after the
21 barricades in March because I heard about it at the time. I knew there
22 was the president of the Crisis Staff who was Mr. Neskovic, and I wasn't
23 aware of who the other members are.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise to Ms. Gustafson. In
25 the last line, it says indeed what she claims to have said, but it was
1 put that way by a witness. The last line reads that the witness indeed
2 said that I had it distributed.
3 MS. GUSTAFSON: I thank the accused for that correction.
4 Q. Mr. Radan, so if you were unaware of the creation of this
5 Crisis Staff, I take it you were also not aware that at the meeting in
6 December 1991 where that Crisis Staff -- Novo Sarajevo Crisis Staff staff
7 was established, that Drago Kovac, Milenko Jovanovic, and Momir Garic,
8 representatives of civilian protection, the MUP and the TO were tasked
9 with item 9 of those instructions which was an instruction to prepare an
10 estimate of the number of necessary active and reserve policemen, TO
11 units, and civilian protection units. And on that basis bring them up to
12 full manpower levels and take any other necessary action for their
13 engagement in keeping with the developments. An order to activate these
14 units shall be issued by the Crisis Staff in the municipality.
15 I take it you were not aware that those three individuals were
16 given that task.
17 A. I knew all three of them. As for their specific duties, I wasn't
18 aware of that nor do I know what the results were of the things they were
19 supposed to undertake. In the territory of our part of the municipality
20 where I resided, I did not feel the effects of those developments. We
21 were not preparing ourselves, as I have said before. At least I had no
22 part in any such thing.
23 Q. Okay. You may not have had a part in any such thing, but you
24 agree, do you not, that bringing police, TO, and civilian protection
25 units up to full manpower levels and taking any other necessary action
1 for their engagement is a preparation for war, is it not?
2 A. In the overall situation, the Serb people did not prepare
3 themselves for war but for defence in order to remain part of Yugoslavia
4 and to defend themselves by pre-empting any possible developments similar
5 to those from World War II. They were acting based on their experience.
6 If you want to invoke the meeting and instructions from 1991 and the
7 three people in question and their tasks, perhaps I could say that I
8 would have taken part if someone had offered it to me.
9 I saw through my own experience what the members of the
10 Patriotic League and the Green Berets were doing around Sarajevo. Out of
11 prevention and out of fear, I would have definitely joined the defence
12 efforts in order to defend what was ours.
13 Q. Okay. The Chamber also heard evidence from Mr. Garic who
14 testified for the Defence that Mr. Garic was in contact with
15 Colonel Gagovic, the assistant commander for logistics of the JNA
16 4th Corps, to obtain weapons. Do you know anything about Mr. Garic's
17 efforts to obtain weapons from the JNA in your municipality?
18 A. First of all, I don't know which period this statement by
19 Mr. Garic refers to. I did not take part in it. I do know Mr. Garic,
20 but as of the beginning of the conflict, I don't know what he had been
21 doing before that, and I told you that I was unaware and unfamiliar with
22 the tasks he and the two other men were apparently assigned.
23 Q. Okay. That's clear. Thank you. I'd like to move on now to talk
24 about the Serbian nine men that you refer to in your statement who were
25 causing problems by mistreating Croats and Serbs [sic] in the
1 municipality. You refer to this at paragraph 13 of your statement.
2 You said that you knew these nine men by name, but you had only
3 mentioned Batko or Veselin Vlahovic in your evidence. Can you name the
4 other nine men you're referring to?
5 A. During that time I only knew of this nickname Batko. As for the
6 other eight, Zorka Cepter, this and that, they had all sorts of
7 nicknames, but I never obtained their particulars. When I mentioned the
8 meeting with the police and military in order to have something done
9 about it, I mentioned only their nicknames, and yet everyone knew who
10 they were. Neither then nor now I know -- do I know their first and last
11 names, because they do not hail from our municipality.
12 Q. So the police and the army knew more about these men than you; is
13 that right?
14 A. I suppose as much. Whenever there was an Assembly session,
15 someone from the police reported on their activities, what they did,
16 where -- what proceedings they instituted, et cetera, and they always
17 kept going back to the topic of security. In the reports they would
18 submit figures. This is how many people we have criminally prosecuted,
19 et cetera. However, the figures came without the names. I suppose they
20 had appropriate information and they had more of it because it was their
21 job to know.
22 Q. Okay. You said this was a problem -- this problem with the
23 Serbian nine men. I understand you said this was a problem from the
24 start of the war. When did you first become aware of this -- the crimes
25 committed by this group?
1 A. It wasn't continuous but sporadic, whenever someone had the
2 chance to do something. Such things did not reach me directly as the
3 President of the Executive Board. I suppose that citizens reported
4 incidents to the police and the police had such information.
5 Q. Thank you. I'd like to ask you to listen carefully to my
6 questions and try to answer them as precisely as possible.
7 The question was simply when you first became aware, by whatever
8 means, of Batko's crimes and these nine men.
9 A. Yes, I understand the question. I heard about his acts in
10 July 1992 at a funeral. A cousin of mine who had been a fighter was
11 buried on that occasion, Zoran Vitkovic. Batko came there, among others,
12 and boasted his activities. It was along the lines of ridicule. So that
13 was in early July 1992. That's when the funeral was and that's when I
14 heard of Batko for the first time. I did not know him before that. He
15 was not part of any unit. He was not at the front lines. He was just
16 being a maverick.
17 Q. But he wore a military uniform; right?
18 A. Even those who were not in the army wore uniforms so as not to be
19 drafted. It was calling cards to -- to try and be seen as someone who
20 was already engaged in the military, but it was no guarantee of anything.
21 Q. So I take it you -- your answer's affirmative, that Batko wore a
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. You first heard about his acts in July 1992, and then you
25 said earlier today that you constantly pointed out these happenings at
1 weekly meetings with the police and the army. So you began pointing out
2 the crimes of this group sometime after you became aware of them in July
3 at these weekly meetings; is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And you also said earlier today that at one point Batko was
6 arrested after he shot at you in your car. When was that?
7 A. I didn't say Batko fired on that occasion. It was Zoran, aka
8 Zoka. It wasn't Batko who fired at my car. It was Zoran, also known as
9 Zoka. He shot at my car. Never in my statement did I say it was done by
11 Q. Okay. But Zoka was one of these nine men you refer to; is that
13 A. Yes. Yes.
14 Q. And when did that happen? When was your car shot at by Zoka?
15 A. Just following the period where these appeals were being made to
16 have them removed from the municipality, which was some time in September
17 in 1992.
18 Q. So in September of 1992, these nine men were still committing
19 crimes in the municipality; is that right?
20 A. By that time there were fewer of them, because one or two of them
21 were no longer in our municipality. So we went down from the number of
22 nine. In stages there were fewer and fewer.
23 Q. Was Batko still committing crimes in Novo Sarajevo in
24 September of 1992?
25 A. I think by virtue of his presence alone, well, it's a particular
1 kind of personality who couldn't do without terrorising and mistreating
2 others. I suppose, well, because it was not within my remit to go about
3 following him, I forwarded information to the police presuming that they
4 would do their job, and I suppose they did.
5 Q. Okay. So Batko was still present in the municipality in
6 September 1992; is that right?
7 A. Yes. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. And you said that after your car was shot at, that Zoka
9 was taken to Kula and then released after a few days. Do you know who
10 released Zoka from Kula?
11 A. Believe me when I say I don't. An authorised official must have
12 released him, but I don't know who.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness be asked
14 to either approach the microphones or speak up.
15 MS. GUSTAFSON:
16 Q. You've been asked to move closer to the microphone so that the
17 interpreters can hear you.
18 A. I was facing you, that's why. Thank you. Do I need to repeat?
19 Q. No. I think -- I think your answer was heard.
20 So -- but Kula was a regular prison, and it was run by the
21 Ministry of Justice under Momcilo Mandic; right?
22 A. Yes, at the time.
23 Q. Okay. So earlier when you said that the nine men didn't have any
24 support from the authorities, one of these men obviously had some -- some
25 support from the authorities, in particular some authorised person, as
1 you put it, who released him from Kula; right?
2 A. I suppose that the legal formalities were done. They were
3 interviewed, et cetera, in order to establish what they had done. Now,
4 what the police actually did I'd rather not go into. It's matter for the
5 judiciary and the police.
6 Q. Okay. The Chamber has received evidence that the Novo Sarajevo
7 police were well aware of Batko's crimes in May of 1992, and that's
8 P6017. Do you have any reason to dispute that information?
9 A. No. By nature, I am a legalist. I abide by the law, and I
10 believe there were other people who were more competent to deal with it.
11 I did not assign myself any right to judge their work. I was not neither
12 present nor competent to assess that. I suppose they worked diligently
13 and in the best manner they knew how.
14 Q. Okay. You suppose they worked diligently. The MUP special
15 forces were based in Novo Sarajevo, in Vraca; right?
16 A. Yes, in the police school, the police academy.
17 Q. And there was a significant army presence in your municipality,
18 including the SRK corps command at Lukavica, a battalion command in
19 Grbavica, and troops stationed throughout your municipality; right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, given this substantial police and army presence and
22 accepting that the police were aware of Batko's group committing crimes
23 beginning in May of 1992, and your evidence that Batko was still in the
24 municipality in September of 1992, it's clear, is it not, that the police
25 and the army could have stopped Batko's crimes long before his eventual
1 removal from the municipality, isn't it?
2 A. I agree something could have been done earlier.
3 Q. And the reason nothing was done earlier about Batko was because
4 Batko was being protected by the Bosnian Serb leadership; right?
5 A. I cannot confirm that. I was part of that leadership, and I
6 expressed my opinion, and I stand by it. One cannot make such
7 brushstroke remarks and say that the Serb leadership was protecting
9 Q. All right. I'd like to turn now to 65 ter 18857A, please. We're
10 about to look at an extract from a book written by Biljana Plavsic.
11 You're familiar with Mrs. Plavsic; right? She was a member of the
12 Presidency at the time.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And, in fact, up until the beginning of the war she lived in
15 November Sarajevo, in Grbavica; is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the rest of
18 the answer.
19 MS. GUSTAFSON:
20 Q. Could you just repeat your last answer for the interpreters,
21 Mr. Radan.
22 A. Yes. Mrs. Biljana Plavsic lived in Grbavica in a neighbourhood
23 called Soping.
24 Q. Okay. And if we could go to the next page in the English and
25 page 3 in the B/C/S, please.
1 Mr. Radan, I'd like to direct your attention to the bottom
2 right-hand corner of the document in B/C/S. It's the second paragraph
3 that starts just about halfway down the page where Mrs. Plavsic describes
4 how she had a meeting with the UN High Representative for Refugees in
5 Lukavica in July 1992. And this is at the top of the English.
6 And she describes how she is stopped at the intersection for the
7 roads Trebevic, Grbavica, and Lukavica. About halfway down that passage,
8 in fact, right at the bottom of the screen in the B/C/S, she says:
9 "A group of people waved at me and I got out of the car. They
10 got to the point immediately."
11 If we could go to the next page in the B/C/S:
12 "I expected them to request something for themselves, but they
13 had another issue. They were talking about the events at Grbavica, and
14 they were Serbs. According to them, it was dangerous for the non-Serbs
15 to live in that part of the city. They told me that certain Batko and
16 several people of his kind were forcibly entering the Croatian and Muslim
17 apartments at night and taking the men away. Some of these men have not
18 been seen after this event. They were looting and blackmailing the
19 people. The Serbs who opposed this became a target of this maniac and
20 his group."
21 Now, that's more or less an accurate description of what Batko
22 was up to at the time in Grbavica; is that right?
23 A. Well, you see, I would just like to ask -- well, I know roughly
24 when the book was published and I know who the author of the book is, and
25 I know for what purpose it was written. Nothing is in dispute there.
1 This that is written here, that's something I've often said myself. But
2 for these allegations to be made by Ms. Biljana Plavsic after so many
3 years, she was in our territory most of the time, and I don't know what
4 she did in order to help us to eradicate this evil that did exist in
6 Q. Well, I'd like to now direct your attention to a further extract
7 beginning approximately nine lines down from where we just finished
8 reading, and this is at the bottom of the English where she says:
9 "If half of what the people at the crossroad told me is true,
10 then this is horrible. In that case, then the local authorities have
12 And then she describes how she went to the municipality building
13 and she said:
14 "The president of the municipality was not there but it did not
15 matter because the other quickly gathered. I told them why I had come
16 and asked them whether it was possible that such evil-doings were being
17 tolerated. They were silent."
18 And if we go to the next page in the English, a few lines down
19 she says:
20 "I asked him who Batko was. At the mention of that name, they
21 even got scared. I came to a conclusion that those men were completely
22 unable to cope with the situation and they were the ones representing the
23 authorities. I got the feeling that those people had earlier been some
24 small potatoes in the local communities, and I was not wrong. I asked
25 them who their municipal president was."
1 Sorry, if we could now go to the next half of the page in B/C/S.
2 Thank you:
3 "They mentioned his name. He is a doctor trading in medicines
4 and representing a company. He is a Montenegrin. I did not achieve
5 anything there at the municipality building, but the fact that a member
6 of the Presidency was informed about the events which they were obviously
7 trying to hide must have had some effect. I would immediately inform the
8 Presidency and ask that someone should take responsibility, and that was
9 exactly what I did."
10 Mr. Radan, were you present at this meeting with Mrs. Plavsic
11 when she came to the municipal building?
12 A. No, I was not present.
13 Q. And when she describes the president of the municipality as being
14 a Montenegrin doctor trading in medicines, that's a description of
15 Dr. Prijic who is municipal president at the time; right?
16 A. Yes. He was born in Montenegro, but he lived and worked in
17 Sarajevo. He was the director of the Galenika representative office in
18 Novo Sarajevo.
19 Q. [Microphone not activated] Okay. And if we could go to --
20 JUDGE KWON: Microphone, please.
21 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. And if we could go to the last extract from this which is on the
23 next page in the English, and it's on page 5 of the B/C/S. And it's on
24 the left-hand side of the B/C/S page, beginning in the first full
25 paragraph, about four lines down where she says after her meeting with
1 Ogata in Lukavica she dashed off at great speed to Pale to attempt to
2 prevent the activity of the mad Batko. She says:
3 "I entered one of the rooms in Kikinda where I find all the
4 relevant persons for solving this problem. Radovan is there; Momo,
5 Momcilo Mandic, justice minister; Mico Stanisic, police minister. I
6 didn't even mention to them the conversation I had had with Ogata but
7 straight away moved to the events at Grbavica. I expect wonder, worry,
8 astonishment but there is none of it. Momcilo Mandic smirked, that is
9 the proper term for his face at the moment, and said, 'Oh, Batko,' so to
10 the interior minister as if we were talking about some playful child and
11 his games. Therefore they are familiar with the men and his activities.
12 They know him very well and they do not hide it. So these are his
13 protecters and the ones giving him orders, as Zoran Vitkovic mentioned.
14 I told them that I thought they were unfamiliar with such occurrences and
15 with that person and so had intended to have them issue a warrant to
16 arrest him," and then there's a quote, "'but now I see you are familiar
17 with everything and I now ask the Presidency that the two of you be
18 arrested.' I addressed Karadzic as the president of the Presidency and
19 sought that these two ministers be arrested or that they resign
21 And then she describes how she's been harassed by Momcilo Mandic
22 since then, and a few lines down she says:
23 "Radovan's reply to my request for the resignation of these
24 ministers reiterated a number of times was always, 'You are asking me to
25 cut off my right arm.'"
1 Now, that explain why Batko and his group were able to operate
2 with impunity for so many months in Grbavica despite the significant
3 police and army presence in the municipality, doesn't it, Mr. Radan?
4 A. Well, you see, this is how I would answer: This book was written
5 by Mr. Rajko Vasic. I don't know what he wrote before that. This
6 information and these references to Zoran Vitkovic's statements, a young
7 man who was killed in July 1992, and I spoke about that funeral when I
8 first heard of these wrong-doings. That was the funeral of
9 Zoran Vitkovic.
10 This same Zoran Vitkovic at the request of Biljana Plavsic, with
11 eight or nine of his men, when the fiercest fighting was taking place in
12 Grbavica, upon instructions from Mrs. Biljana Plavsic, from the 9th or
13 10th floor of a building, he carried Biljana Plavsic's 85-year-old mother
14 downstairs. So I don't know how relevant these statements are in view of
15 this time distance, and with all due respect to the late Zoran Vitkovic,
16 this relevant information taking into account what he said and not taking
17 into account what somebody from the municipality says, an elected
18 official. So she took another route. She took the wrong route. She
19 didn't do things right.
20 As for all of this that she says about this meeting in Kikinda, I
21 was not present, so I cannot say anything about that. So this speaks of
22 Biljana and her testimony and what she spoke of afterwards and everything
24 Q. You say you don't know how relevant these statements are in view
25 of this time distance. This book was written in 2005, admittedly some
1 years these events, but you're testifying about these events in 2012. So
2 if we're to accept your words in 2012 about what happened, there's no
3 reason we can't accept Ms. Plavsic's words in 2005; right?
4 A. This book had a completely different purpose, completely
5 different. The writing of Ratko Vasic had a completely different
6 purpose. I am just testifying to you about situations when I was
8 Now, if this book was written in 2005, the late Zoran Vitkovic
9 was killed in the war in Kotorac in 1992, and now all of a sudden to
10 refer to statements made by the late Zoran Vitkovic and not to take into
11 account statements of persons who were relevant and alive in that period,
12 I don't know what purpose that can serve.
13 As for all the situations when I was present, when I could do
14 something, I did do something.
15 MS. GUSTAFSON: I'd like to tender that extract, please.
16 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. He hasn't confirmed anything
17 about the last portion of the extract involving the meeting with
18 Dr. Karadzic, nor could he have been expected to. So to that extent, I
19 think it's -- that portion of it's inadmissible beside the fact that it's
20 a third party's statement many years after the event.
21 MS. GUSTAFSON: Well, Your Honours, of course there's no bar to
22 hearsay at this Tribunal and there is certainly no bar to having extracts
23 of books submitted. It's happened in this trial in the past, and I point
24 in particular to Mr. Karadzic's tendering extracts of Lord Owen's book
25 through Prosecution witnesses. And in any event, whether or not the
1 witness has confirmed this is not relevant. He stated that Batko wasn't
2 protected or connected to anyone, and this is direct impeachment of that.
3 Apart from that, much of what is in this --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's not what I stated. I'm
6 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. We are having a debate among the
7 parties. Please --
8 MS. GUSTAFSON: And in any event, much of what the -- much of
9 what is in this extract has in fact been confirmed by the testimony of
10 the witness. So the -- the extract certainly meets the standards for
11 reliability and probative value under Rule 89.
12 JUDGE KWON: Probably you were not with us yesterday, but I
13 reiterated the Chamber's prior practice with respect to third-party
14 statements in which you usually admit the third-party statement when it
15 is to be confirmed by the witness or commented upon. So what would be
16 the reason for you to tender or to admit this part of Mrs. Plavsic's
18 MS. GUSTAFSON: Impeachment, Your Honours, and I don't think
19 there's --
20 JUDGE KWON: What point of testimony is this going to impeach?
21 What part of Mr. Radan's testimony?
22 MS. GUSTAFSON: Mr. Radan denied that Batko was being protected
23 by the leadership.
24 JUDGE KWON: Which includes himself.
25 MS. GUSTAFSON: Yes.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber will consider this issue together with
3 Tintor's interview and give its ruling on Tuesday together.
4 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you.
5 Q. Now, Mr. Radan, you referred in your earlier evidence to the fact
6 that the situation with crime improved over time. It is the case,
7 though, is it not that many months after the events that you talked about
8 with Batko, in particular in November of 1992, there was still a problem
9 of massive crime being committed on a massive scale in Novo Sarajevo, in
10 particular by members of the military; right?
11 A. I don't know what you are referring to exactly.
12 Q. Well, you were there. Was there --
13 A. Which massive crimes?
14 Q. Well, in particular, mistreatment of the non-Serb population,
15 harassment, rape, physical mistreatment, and robbery.
16 A. I don't know about that. Had I known about that, I would have
17 reported it to the police. As I said in the previous case, I was in a
18 position to ensure conditions, living conditions, that were sort of
19 adequate, but there was the civilian police, there was the military
20 police that was supposed to do their job. I tried to protect people in
21 my own neighbourhood as much as I could when I knew about things.
22 Q. I'm sorry to cut you off. My time is very limited. You did
23 answer my question. You said, "I don't know about that."
24 MS. GUSTAFSON: Could we have P5065, please.
25 Q. This is a document that's in fact referenced in your statement in
1 support of your claim about the number of people killed by sniper fire
2 from the Muslim side. It's the minutes of a 15 November 1992 meeting
3 between SRK commanders and municipality presidents and attended by
4 General Mladic as well. And if we could go to page 2 in the English,
5 staying on page 1 in the B/C/S. You can see that your name is listed
6 as -- you're listed as being present under number 23. You were present
7 at this meeting; right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. If we could go to page 4 of the English and page 3 of the
10 B/C/S. This is part of the introduction by General Galic.
11 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could have page 3 in the B/C/S. Sorry,
12 page 4.
13 Q. And there are a number of points about halfway down the page
14 under the heading "Flaws," and about halfway down he lists "genocide on
15 other nations" as one of the flaws.
16 If we could now go to page 9 of the English and page 7 of the
17 B/C/S. This is now Colonel Lugonja speaking, who was the chief of
18 security in the SRK command, and at the top of the English and about half
19 way down in the B/C/S, he says:
20 "Extremely widespread theft, robbery, violence and other crimes.
21 Everything has been stolen," et cetera.
22 And then under the next point, he says:
23 "The understanding and practice of individuals and groups that
24 they are masters of life and death to every individual of different
25 ethnicity resulting in cases of unnecessary mistreatment and killing of
1 members of other ethnicities, especially Muslims. Such people see the
2 Geneva and other conventions as obsolete and unnecessary in this war.
3 If we could go to the bottom of the page in English and the next
4 page in the B/C/S. And this is still Colonel Lugonja speaking. And he
5 refers, under the fourth point in B/C/S, near the bottom of the English,
6 he refers to widespread theft, robbery, and all forms of violent
7 behaviour, intensive war profiteering. And under the next point, nearly
8 total financial and legal insecurity particularly in specific areas
9 Grbavica, et cetera. Widespread belief that the war provides an
10 opportunity to profit as much as possible.
11 And if we could go to page 12 of the English and page 9 of the
12 B/C/S. This is Dr. Prijic speaking, the president of Novo Sarajevo
13 municipality. And this is near the bottom in the B/C/S, near the top in
14 the English. Sorry, near the middle in the English. And he says that
15 there are some problems involving robberies and shootings by various
16 soldiers. The army's assistance and intervention in the prevention of
17 problematic actions would be of great benefit. And in the next paragraph
18 he says the soldiers' morale in Novo Sarajevo So is falling. A great
19 portions of soldiers is exercising unruly behaviour. Mass removals of
20 property from the municipality, rape, expulsions from flats are going
21 unpunished affecting morale. And then he says the military police are
22 consolidated but still not strong enough.
23 You were there when Dr. Prijic reported this to the SRK command
24 and that soldiers were committing mass crime in municipality, and that
25 was the reality at the time, wasn't it?
1 A. Well, it wasn't massive. In order to make things as serious as
2 possible because it was such a eminent gathering, the late
3 President Prijic put things in very serious terms, more serious than was
4 actually the case, but it is true that such things did exist. That's why
5 we took all the measures that we did. However, he presented this before
6 the top echelons of the military. He presented this problem which was
8 Q. Well, it's also clear from General Galic's reference to the flaw
9 of the genocide on other nations and to Colonel Lugonja's reference to
10 extremely widespread theft, robbery, violence, and other crimes, and the
11 reference to the understanding and practice of individuals and groups
12 that they are masters of life and death to every individual of different
13 ethnicity, that there was indeed a significant level of crime against
14 non-Serbs at the time; right?
15 A. Well, all of that we did point out. We said that all of this was
16 happening, but classifying it as genocide, I think that that is not
17 right, because it is well known what genocide means according to these
18 formulations. So I accept all the rest, that that kind of thing
19 happened, except for this formulation, that it was genocide.
20 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Gustafson -- Ms. Gustafson, we'll have a break
22 MS. GUSTAFSON: Okay. Thank you, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE KWON: Before -- yes, Mr. Robinson.
24 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. Number one, I would like to
25 know how long she plans to be so we can try to plan our next witness;
1 and, secondly, Mr. President, I would ask that we adopt a practice that
2 you had with Dr. Karadzic when it came to additional time for
3 cross-examination, and that is to ask the Prosecution how much it needs
4 and then to give them a specific amount of time so that we can equalise
5 the playing field on which both parties have had to operate on.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes. I'm keeping a close eye on this. And then I
7 also noted, as Ms. Gustafson indicated, Mr. Karadzic raised some
8 additional things in his chief examination. That's why I'm -- we are
9 allowing some more time to Ms. Gustafson, but fair enough to ask how much
10 longer she would need.
11 MS. GUSTAFSON: Yes. Thank you, Your Honour. I am almost
12 finished with this topic. I have two further topics which are the ones
13 that were raised new today, and it should take me about 15 minutes.
14 JUDGE KWON: We'll take a break and resume at 20 past 1.00.
15 --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.
16 --- On resuming at 1.22 p.m.
17 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Ms. Gustafson.
18 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you.
19 Q. Mr. Radan, just before the break, I had asked you whether there
20 was indeed a significant level of crime against non-Serbs at the time of
21 this document we looked at here which was November 1992, and you said,
22 Well, all of that we did point out. We said all of this was happening.
23 Earlier in respect to a question that Mr. Karadzic put to you
24 about whether there was any attempt on the part of the population of
25 Grbavica, the non-Serb population, to cross to the other side, you said,
1 "Yes. They thought they could reunite with their families and have
2 better living conditions, but there were no expulsions carried out by
4 It's true, is it not, that one of the reasons that non-Serbs were
5 fleeing or attempting to flee the municipality or leaving the
6 municipality was their flight or attempted flight from the significant
7 level of crime against non-Serbs in Grbavica by members of the military
8 as described in this report?
9 A. I officially don't know about a single incident in which this was
10 cited as the reason for crossing over, but I also know that there was
11 ethnic divisions. Not expulsions, but divisions along ethnic lines. I
12 mentioned the 15th of November, 1992, when 300 people left from our
13 municipality and then again 15 buses of Serbs, or maybe people of other
14 ethnicities as well, crossed over into Serbia. So the people wanted to
15 have a choice and to go and live together with their compatriots. It is
16 possible, though, that the reasons that you mentioned did exist, that
17 people were being subjected to harassment, that they were seeking a way
18 to cross over in order to escape such situations.
19 Q. And I'd like now to turn page 26 of the English and page 18 of
20 the B/C/S in this document. And we have seen earlier, Mr. Radan,
21 Mr. Prijic -- or Dr. Prijic mentioning the need to strengthen the
22 military police and asking for the army's assistance with the problems of
23 crime, and here we see these are concluding remarks by General Mladic,
24 and in the middle of the page in both the English and B/C/S there's an
25 entry where he says:
1 "Co-operation with SRJ, Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, is good,
2 but our entrepreneurs should be called to account, municipality
3 presidents should put an end to the robberies."
4 In your assessment did municipality presidents have the means and
5 authority to put an end to large-scale crime by VRS soldiers?
6 A. I said earlier that neither the president of the municipality nor
7 the president of the Executive Council had any leverage to -- to do that
8 despite having the will and the desire to do so. They weren't able to
9 secure normal life, and they didn't have instruments to put that into
10 practice without co-operation with the army, the civilian police, and the
11 military police. Our recommendations and pleas with regard to what has
12 to be done in the form of joint co-operation among all parties concerned
13 was the only way and our only option.
14 Q. Thank you. I'd like to turn now to a topic that was raised by
15 Dr. Karadzic this morning about the departure of some Muslims from the
16 area of are Kovacici. And actually you mentioned it again a moment ago,
17 and I'd just like to clarify, because I think you gave two different
18 dates. What was the date that this departure took place?
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm afraid there is an error in
20 interpretation. The witness said on the 30th September Muslims and then
21 Serbs in November, but although I refrained from intervening, this is
22 what the transcript reads.
23 MS. GUSTAFSON:
24 Q. Mr. Radan, what was the date that these Muslims departed, these
25 Muslims from Kovacici?
1 A. The Muslims left on the 30th of September, 1992, in the early
2 morning hours of that day. Possibly the other party was alerted about
3 their arrival, because on the other side of the Vrbanja, there were
4 already journalists and cameras and crews, and this information reached
5 east river in New York within 15 minutes.
6 Q. Okay. So -- and you said that they were living along the
7 confrontation line where there was shooting on a daily basis, and you
8 cited that as the reason for them to leave. That confrontation line was
9 established in April of 1992, and it didn't -- it remained static
10 throughout this period; right?
11 A. No. It never shifted in that specific area.
12 Q. And you said earlier that there was daily fighting in that area,
13 and yet for a reason that you apparently aren't aware of, for some reason
14 after living on the confrontation line where there was daily fighting for
15 about six months, all of a sudden in a single day 300 Muslims decided to
16 up and leave; is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. Well, whatever was going on with the Muslims -- and,
19 sorry, Kovacici, that's a different area than Grbavica. Those are two
20 different neighbourhoods in Novo Sarajevo; right?
21 A. No, they are not. There's Vrbanja Most, Kovacici, Grbavica 1 and
22 Grbavica 2, and Hrasno. This is how these local communities are
23 situated, but they constitute one whole. Then you have the
24 Jewish Cemetery, Grbavica 1, Grbavica 2, which is on the left river of
25 the Miljacka downstream from the Vrbanja.
1 Q. Okay.
2 MS. GUSTAFSON: Can we go to 65 ter 09390G, please. And if we
3 could zoom in on the -- basically the middle of this map. A little bit
4 more. A little bit more, please. And if we could shift the map up. And
5 zoom in again. And that should be fine there.
6 Q. Now, Mr. Radan, can you see the word "Kovacici" on this map?
7 Right about in the middle of the screen.
8 A. Yes, yes.
9 Q. And that depicts the neighbourhood of Kovacici; is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Okay. And I'd like -- I'm going to ask you to put a circle
12 around that, and the usher will assist you.
13 A. [Marks]
14 Q. Okay. And immediately to the left of Kovacici is the
15 Jewish Cemetery; right? Is that correct?
16 A. If viewed from here, then it's between Kovacici and Souk Bunar.
17 That's where the Jewish Cemetery is.
18 Q. Okay. Could you mark the Jewish Cemetery with a J.
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. And you see the word "Grbavica" to the left, on the left-hand
21 side of the screen?
22 A. Yes, yes.
23 Q. That depicts the neighbourhood of Grbavica?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And could you draw a circle around that, please.
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. Okay. Now, these are clearly two different neighbourhoods aren't
3 they, Mr. Radan?
4 A. No. It's one whole. This is Grbavica 2, which I encircled, and
5 then between Kovacici and Grbavica 2 you have Grbavica 1. So all these
6 neighbourhoods are interconnected.
7 Q. Well, they may be linked, but they're two different
8 neighbourhoods, aren't they?
9 A. No, that's the settlement of Grbavica. All of that belongs to
10 Grbavica. It may be called Kovacici, Grbavica 1, Grbavica 2. These are
11 all interconnected to constitute one whole.
12 Q. I'll leave it at that. Whatever was happening to these Muslims
13 in Kovacici that you referred to on the 30th of September, it is the
14 fact, is it not, that hundreds of Muslims were expelled from Grbavica on
15 the 30th of September, 1992.
16 A. I don't know on what basis you have established that to be a
17 fact, because that's not what I've said.
18 Q. Okay. I want to show you a document, but before we do that, if
19 you could please initial this map in the bottom right-hand corner.
20 MS. GUSTAFSON: And I'd like to tender that.
21 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
22 JUDGE KWON: For clarity, why don't we ask the witness to circle
23 the Grbavica 1 as well.
24 MS. GUSTAFSON:
25 Q. Are you able to circle Grbavica 1, Mr. Radan?
1 A. [Marks]
2 JUDGE KWON: Could you write down G1.
3 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Today is 6th of December, 2012.
5 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
6 JUDGE KWON: We'll admit that as the next Prosecution exhibit.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Document marked by the witness becomes
8 Exhibit P6036, Your Honours.
9 MS. GUSTAFSON: And if we could have P1266 on the screen. Sorry,
10 P1266. I don't believe this is P1266. Thank you.
11 Q. Mr. Radan, have you seen this document before?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. Oh, yes. I'm sorry. I did see this one. Yes, I did see it.
15 When I came here.
16 Q. So the Defence showed this document to you; is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And what did they ask you about this document?
19 A. They asked me about what I knew with regard to this document, and
20 that's what I testified here. Only one correction, small correction. It
21 says here Bristol Hotel, whereas the people crossed to the other side
22 across the Vrbanja Bridge.
23 Q. And all this information that you received about what happened to
24 the Muslims on this day you testified earlier you -- you received that
25 information from the police; is that right?
1 A. No. I said that I learned about this and then I officially
2 inquired with the police what information they had, because they were the
3 ones who were supposed to provide official information. One should not
4 rely on hearsay and rumours. That's why I requested official
6 Q. Okay. Earlier in response to a question by the accused you said:
7 "Since I wasn't personally present there, I nevertheless reacted
8 immediately by talking to the police."
9 So if you didn't find out about this from the police, who did you
10 find out about it from given that you weren't personally there?
11 A. People were talking inside and outside the municipal building
12 when I arrived at work at around 8.30. When I arrived in my office, I
13 rang the police in order to find out what actually happened. After that,
14 after I received this information, I took my car and drove to Pale to
15 talk to Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik, the speaker of the Assembly, and to find
16 out if he knew anything about this. He was completely astounded, because
17 he didn't have accurate information. And then later on it was found out
18 that this whole thing was something that was self-organised.
19 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Gustafson, it's time to come to your last point.
20 MS. GUSTAFSON: Okay, Your Honour.
21 Q. Okay. So you said people were talking inside and outside the
22 municipal building. You said later on you found out that -- later on you
23 found out that this whole thing was something that was self-organised.
24 So in the morning that you arrived at the municipal building, were people
25 talking about the fact that Muslims were being expelled?
1 A. I said outside the building, and when I was arriving, I heard
2 about it on my way to work.
3 Q. I asked you whether people were talking about the fact that
4 Muslims were being expelled. Is that what you heard outside the
5 municipal building?
6 A. They didn't make any assertions. They were just claiming to know
7 that they crossed over to the other side and that they heard this
8 information. There were individuals, though, who claimed that they had
9 been expelled, but since I did not want to rely on unconfirmed
10 information, I resorted to contacting official sources to hear from them
11 what actually took place.
12 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Mr. Radan, for answering my questions.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Ms. Gustafson.
14 Yes, Mr. Karadzic. Do you have re-examination?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellencies.
16 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
17 Q. [Interpretation] And while we still have this document on the
18 screen, Mr. Radan, tell me, did you know any of the persons mentioned in
19 this document, for example this liaison officer of the BH Army who was in
20 charge of liaising with UNPROFOR?
21 A. Yes, I did know him.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Gustafson.
23 MS. GUSTAFSON: I'm sorry. This -- first of all, it's clear that
24 this document was shown to the witness in proofing. The accused elected
25 not to discuss it with the witness in his testimony. I didn't ask him
1 anything about the individuals who drafted this report. This is not
2 proper redirect examination.
3 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, I would disagree. I think she
4 can't expect to show a report to a witness and ask him to comment on it
5 and then not have Dr. Karadzic also be able to comment on the report.
6 MS. GUSTAFSON: I didn't get the chance to ask the witness to
7 comment on it.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE KWON: True -- it was true that Ms. Gustafson didn't ask
10 the witness to comment upon the document, so let's move on.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Then I'll start with the most recent things. Mr. Radan, can you
14 tell us when this crossing over took place and when these 300 people had
15 gathered together?
16 A. I said that it happened on the morning of 30th of September,
17 early in the morning, and most probably they assembled immediately prior
18 to that.
19 Q. Thank you. According to everything that you know, how many
20 people would it require to forcibly take 300 people out of their houses
21 and expel them?
22 A. Well, I cannot be certain about that, but it will definitely need
23 a large group of people if they wanted to expel them.
24 Q. Thank you. Do you know whether these civilians took some
25 personal belongings with them?
1 A. Believe me, I have no information about that, because I never saw
2 them crossing over.
3 Q. Thank you. Have you heard that there was a lot of commotion,
4 that there was or big crowd, that 300 people were assembled in one
5 spot --
6 MS. GUSTAFSON: Objection, leading.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not hear the answer
8 given by the witness.
9 JUDGE KWON: Absolutely agree with Ms. Gustafson.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Strike that.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. On page 48, you were asked about instruction A or B. Did you
13 follow this instruction A and B in executing your power? I'm talking
14 about transcript page, not the page from your statement.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Gustafson, before Mr. Radan answers the
17 MS. GUSTAFSON: The witness's testimony on instruction A and B
18 was that he didn't know anything about it, so if Dr. Karadzic wants to
19 ask whether it was followed, then he should lay some foundation.
20 MR. ROBINSON: Well, Mr. President, I think he's entitled to
21 answer that question. If foundation is required from the answer he can
22 follow up on that, but that seemed to be a very legitimate question.
23 JUDGE KWON: Did he not say that he didn't know that document at
24 the time of distribution?
25 Mr. Radan, did you become aware of that document at any point of
1 time later on? The content of it, I mean.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there was a meeting on the
3 21st of December, 1991, in the Vraca local commune. There I was
4 appointed to the local commune board on behalf of the SDS. At that
5 meeting, the security situation was discussed. Among other things, I
6 mentioned a case where my car were broken into and the seats torn. That
7 was one of the remarks I made. The rest applied to the security
8 situation and the presence of the police in charge of that area who were
9 trying to act without bias. We asked those superior to him to have him
10 removed from our area, but this paper that was mentioned was not
12 JUDGE KWON: So my question was whether you became aware of the
13 document later on, 1992 or 1993.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
15 JUDGE KWON: Then, Mr. Karadzic, you see the point of
16 Ms. Gustafson.
17 MR. ROBINSON: He could have answered no to that question, which
18 would have also made the same point.
19 JUDGE KWON: Not knowing the document how could he say that --
20 whether he was implementing the decisions or not.
21 MR. ROBINSON: He could say that their decisions were being made
22 not following that document and other grounds. That's what --
23 JUDGE KWON: No, let's not discuss it. He said he didn't know
24 the content of the document.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies --
1 Your Excellencies, if you only trusted me more, you would see its
2 relevance. I wanted to ask him whether anyone from the authorities
3 wanted to check whether they acted on this, but now it's moot.
4 JUDGE KWON: Let's move on, Mr. Karadzic.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. On page 50 of the transcript, you were asked about a meeting
8 concerning the defence of Garici [phoen]. As far as you know about our
9 laws and state administration, can you tell us whether a municipality has
10 genuine competence in the domain of defence?
11 A. The Crisis Staff was operational at the time, and it had
12 competence to organise people in terms of self-protection in order to
13 prevent anarchy and disorder and to protect the population from security
14 incidents. That's their role as I see it.
15 Q. Under the law of All People's Defence, did the municipal
16 president and the Assembly speaker have any competence in the area of
18 A. They were competent to provide infrastructure, the conditions
19 necessary to mount a defence. That was it. The rest was up to the army
20 and probably the police.
21 Q. Thank you. Did they then have to attend meetings called by the
23 A. Well, in any case, they should have a common interest, and we
24 responded to each of their invitation as they did when we invited them.
25 Q. Thank you. On page 55 and 56, it was suggested to you that at
1 Vraca there was a special force the MUP. Vraca, that is to say Grbavica,
2 was it within the area of responsibility of that brigade, and what was
3 the nature of that brigade? Was it a mobile brigade or territorial one?
4 A. They were in Vraca for a short while only. Before the conflict
5 broke out, they happened to have been there, whereas later they moved to
6 Lukavica and elsewhere. As for the police school premises, international
7 forces, including UNPROFOR, were later billeted there. So the unit was
8 mobile and sent where needed. They were not deployed in that area alone.
9 Q. Thank you. As for the soldiers who were defending Grbavica, were
10 they accommodated in garrison or barracks conditions? In their free time
11 did they spend their days in the barracks?
12 A. Some, but most of them went home.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Gustafson.
14 MS. GUSTAFSON: I don't think this arises from the
15 cross-examination nor does it seem to be particularly relevant.
16 JUDGE KWON: Did you not ask the police power and military
17 existence in Grbavica?
18 MS. GUSTAFSON: Yes, Your Honour. So if you believe that the
19 question is relevant to that, then --
20 JUDGE KWON: I think so. Let's continue, Mr. Karadzic.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. When you were asked and shown that at the meeting, there was
24 discussion of soldiers committing crimes, was it also stated that such
25 acts were committed by units or individuals in their spare time when off
2 A. To my knowledge, they were committed by individuals when they
3 were off duty, but it's an opinion of mine. It wasn't discussed in terms
4 of Grbavica per se but generally, and it had to do with what the officers
5 had to say about that.
6 Q. Thank you. In Exhibit P5065 on page 8 that was shown to you --
7 well, I wanted to read out a portion starting with the words or remarks
8 of late Mr. Prijic. In the English it is page 12. It reads as follows:
9 "There are certain problems, thefts, and shooting by fighters.
10 It would be very useful to obtain assistance from the army in order to
11 prevent such problematic behaviour."
12 Then another sentence:
13 "Many fighters act wilfully. They are taking away property en
14 masse and forcing people out of their apartments. It is not being
15 sanctioned and affects the morale. The military police has been tackling
16 the problem but they are still not enough in terms of numbers."
17 Is that what you would agree with?
18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpret's note: There was no pause. Could
19 the witness repeat his answer.
20 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Radan, please put a pause before starting
21 answering the question. The interpreters were not able to hear your
22 answer. Could you repeat it?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So I do not agree in full with what
24 President Prijic stated. That was his own observation. I disagree with
25 it, because that was not the case in Grbavica, and this was not the only
1 case where we did not share the same view.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Thank you. Mr. Radan, did you disagree with his opinion of the
4 situation or with his assertion that the military police was still too
6 A. I disagreed with his image of the situation. The military police
7 was set up in Grbavica when Mr. Sipcic arrived. The military police was
8 established partially in Grbavica, and they acted whenever necessary.
9 Q. Thank you. You meant General Sipcic?
10 A. No, Mr. Simo Sipcic who was chief of the military police.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have in e-court page --
13 yes. Yes. Can we have 1D2799, if that is an exhibit already. No, it
14 hasn't been admitted. Perhaps we shall tender it shortly. 1D2799.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. So let me tell you about the document. This purports to be a
17 statement by Mr. Simo Sipcic in the media. He stated that Novo Sarajevo
18 rule of law is being established. In the municipality of Novo Sarajevo
19 public law and order is gradually being established according to the
20 statement of Captain Simo Sipcic, chief of the military police of the
21 Serbian municipality of Novo Sarajevo. Civilians respect the military
22 and civilian authorities. All difficulties that the citizens had are --
23 were being effectively dealt with regardless of their nationality. The
24 number of citizens returning illegally obtained property to the
25 authorities is ever-increasing, et cetera, does this tally with
1 Mr. Sipcic's attempts to introduce law and order?
2 A. Yes, it does, in full.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Gustafson.
4 MS. GUSTAFSON: Your Honour, what appears to be happening -- this
5 document was notified to us as a document that the accused was planning
6 to use in direct and if fits squarely within the testimony that the
7 accused elicited from the witness. What appears to be happening here is
8 that the accused is holding back eliciting some of this evidence and then
9 waiting until after the cross-examination and attempting to somehow
10 rehabilitate the witness with questions that are basically duplicative of
11 the direct examination. That's not what redirect examination is for.
12 It's supposed to be narrowly directed to specific issues that arise
13 directly from the cross-examination and that's not what's going on here,
14 in my submission.
15 MR. ROBINSON: Well, Mr. President, the redirect examination is
16 limited by the scope of the cross, and when she goes into areas like this
17 which she clearly did, then Dr. Karadzic is entitled. He can choose to
18 forego a document in his direct examination and then later decide to use
19 it if it's within the scope of cross. There's nothing wrong with that at
20 all. This is a trial where both sides get a chance to do that. The
21 Prosecution did that whenever they felt they had the need to do that for
22 reasons of time or whatever. So I don't see that that's a valid
24 JUDGE KWON: By doing so, if the Defence is going to elicit a new
25 element, the Prosecution should be allowed to cross-examine that part as
2 MR. ROBINSON: That's correct.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Gustafson, the Chamber agrees with Mr. Robinson.
5 Let's continue.
6 Let's continue, Mr. Tieger.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. So on page 8, you agreed that they were consulted but still
9 inefficient, the military police, that is. Did they distinguish among
10 the citizens of Novo Sarajevo based on their ethnicity?
11 A. I have no such knowledge. Everyone had the right.
12 Mr. Simo Sipcic was open to all remarks and objections. Anyone could
13 approach him and lodge a complaint. There was no discrimination that I
14 know of.
15 Q. Just one question that remains unclear concerning the
16 Jewish Cemetery. Did the confrontation line have to do with the
17 Jewish Cemetery? Where were the forces of the two sides?
18 A. It was at the foot of Debelo Brdo. That's where the
19 Jewish Cemetery is including Gornji Kovacici and Donji Kovacici and the
20 lines went all the way to the Vrbanja Bridge. That was the separation
21 line, and there was basically daily combat. From the Jewish Cemetery
22 there were Muslim forces shooting, and on the other side there were the
23 Serb forces.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Excellencies, I
25 seek to tender this document.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Gustafson.
2 MS. WEST: No objection.
3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. We'll give the next Defence exhibit
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document receives number D2552, Your Honours.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Gustafson, for
7 complimenting me on my skill to be able to manipulate evidence.
8 Unfortunately, I'm still an amateur.
9 I have no further questions. Thank you, Mr. Radan.
10 JUDGE KWON: Well, that concludes your evidence, Mr. Radan. On
11 behalf of the Chamber, I thank you for your coming to The Hague to give
12 it. Now you are free to go.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 [The witness withdrew]
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Before we bring in the next witness,
16 shall we go into private session briefly.
17 [Private session]
15 [Open session]
16 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Let's bring in the next witness.
18 [The witness entered court]
19 JUDGE KWON: Would the witness take the solemn declaration,
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sorry. I solemnly declare that I
22 will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
23 WITNESS: SVETOZAR GUZINA
24 [Witness answered through interpreter]
25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Guzina. Please take a seat and make
1 yourself comfortable.
2 Mr. Guzina, before you start giving evidence, I would like to
3 draw your attention to a particular Rule here at the Tribunal. Under
4 this Rule, Rule 90(E), you may object to answering a question from the
5 Prosecution or the accused or from the Judges if you believe that your
6 answer will incriminate you. When I said "incriminate," I mean that
7 something you say may amount to an admission of your guilt for a criminal
8 offence or could provide evidence that you have committed an offence.
9 However, even if you think your answer will incriminate you and you do
10 not wish to answer the question, the Tribunal has the power to compel you
11 to answer the question. But in such a case, the Tribunal will make sure
12 that your testimony compelled in such a way shall not be used as evidence
13 in other case against you for any offence other than false testimony.
14 Do you understand what I have just told you, sir?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Guzina.
17 Mr. Karadzic.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Guzina.
21 A. Good afternoon, Mr. President.
22 Q. Did you provide a statement to my Defence team?
23 A. I probably did. Can you tell me which one?
24 Q. Could we have 1D607 [as interpreted]. I had the written
25 statement in mind. Also, please put a break between questions and
1 answers so as not to wear out the interpreters and have an accurate
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you. Did you read the statement and sign it?
6 A. I did.
7 Q. Does it contain accurately everything you said or would you
8 change anything?
9 A. To the best of my knowledge, it's all in there.
10 Q. Thank you. If I were to put the same questions to you today,
11 would your answers be the same basically?
12 A. They would.
13 Q. Thank you. Would I like to tender this statement on the basis of
14 Rule 92 ter.
15 JUDGE KWON: About the documents -- yes, Mr. Robinson.
16 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. We would ask that five of the
17 documents be added to our 65 ter list. The reason they were not on the
18 list is that we weren't aware of them at the time that the initial
19 interview was -- at the time that the exhibit list was filed.
20 JUDGE KWON: Five or six, Mr. Robinson?
21 MR. ROBINSON: There are six exhibits but five are not on the
22 list. One is.
23 JUDGE KWON: Which was on the list?
24 MR. ROBINSON: 1D01762, the first one.
25 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Any objections? Ms. West?
1 MS. WEST: Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours. I have
2 no objection.
3 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We'll admit the 92 ter statement first.
4 We'll give the number.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D6807 receives number D2553,
6 Your Honours.
7 JUDGE KWON: And the -- as regards the six associated exhibits,
8 the numbers will be given in due course by the Registrar.
9 Let us continue.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Thank you. Now I'm going to read out the summary of your
12 statement, Mr. Guzina's statement in the English language.
13 [In English] Svetozar Guzina was the battalion commander of the
14 5th Battalion of the Ilidza Brigade of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps of the
15 VRS beginning on the 22nd of June, 1992, and later the battalion
16 commander for the 1st Battalion of the Ilidza Brigade. He served as a
17 deputy brigade commander when the Ilidza Brigade commander was absent or
18 on leave.
19 Svetozar Guzina noted that in the spring of 1991, the Muslims in
20 Sokolovic Kolonija had begun arming themselves. A few Serbs received
21 threats that they would be expelled from Sokolovic Kolonija and they
22 became very concerned. In an attempt to resolve the situation a meeting
23 was set up with prominent representatives of the three peoples,
24 Svetozar Guzina became a representative of the Serb people.
25 At the meeting, the Muslim representatives originally denied that
1 they were arming, an agreement was reached that a joint night-time patrol
2 should be set up to reassure the population. In late February 1992,
3 barricades were erected which stopped people leaving Sokolovic Kolonija.
4 Muslims became more vocal and began demonstrating against the Serbs.
5 In March 1992, a large crowd of armed Muslims gathered by the
6 primary school in Sokolovic Kolonija. When Svetozar Guzina arrived, he
7 and those with him were forced out of the car and were searched by armed
8 men. They were held at gunpoint and Svetozar Guzina was certain he was
9 going to die. Enver Hodzic, one of the representatives of the Muslims,
10 and Husein Mahmutovic, who was president of the municipality, calmed the
11 situation down and they were released.
12 After this incident the situation deteriorated and more
13 barricades were erected. The Serb population was surrounded. The
14 Serbian authorities in Ilidza concluded that Serbs should move out of
15 Sokolovic Kolonija while a large number of Serbs had already left their
16 homes. A further meeting was held at which the Muslims suggested Serbs
17 not to leave their own homes as the Muslims would guarantee their safety
18 and peace and would protect the Serb population. However,
19 Svetozar Guzina no longer had faith in the guarantees provided by the
20 Muslims. At the meeting, armed men burst in reporting a further incident
21 in Foca during which people had been killed and injured, tensions were
22 very high.
23 It was decided that Enver Hodzic, a Muslim representative, and
24 Svetozar Guzina should make an announcement on the radio to the people of
25 Sokolovic Kolonija in an attempt to stop the fighting. Svetozar Guzina
1 heard from his brother that the world media was reporting that there
2 would be a war in BH. He found that some sort of League for Yugoslavia
3 existed and it attracted people from all ethnic backgrounds. The league
4 handed out weapons to Serbs, Muslims, and Croats.
5 The first attack on Ilidza took place on 22nd of April, 1992,
6 when Muslims entered the hospital and took doctors and patients
7 prisoners. They then began shooting from the building. Svetozar Guzina
8 and those with him had no previous experience of battle and many were
9 shooting out of fear. The battle lasted until 5.00 p.m. when the JNA
10 arrived from Lukavica and this is when the shooting stopped. Many were
11 relieved by the arrival of the army. The fighting continued for a number
12 of months with daily battles raging and during this period they were
13 trained by the JNA. There were no plans to advance at this point, simply
14 to defend their own property and their lives.
15 During the fighting across B and H, the police basically fell
16 apart and the army in Sarajevo was attacked and practically destroyed.
17 Many people were captured, killed, or wounded. The army did not come to
18 assist in Ilidza. Many people did not have regular meals and they were
19 very scared.
20 In June 1992, the JNA were involved in a deliberation of
21 residential area in Dobrinja near the airport, without which the unit
22 would be basically surrounded with only one road towards Pale accessible
23 to them. The Muslims responded to these movements during a cease-fire
24 with a fierce counter attack. Svetozar Guzina requested artillery from
25 the Igman Brigade which was granted once extensive explanations were --
1 immediately after extensive explanations were given about the reasons for
2 this request.
3 Svetozar Guzina never issued an order to fire at civilians, nor
4 was he aware that any of his subordinates or superiors issued such an
5 order. Each commander of a unit was to evacuate civilians from the zone
6 of combat operation or limit their presence in these zones. However,
7 civilians continued to remain near the front line despite the warnings.
8 Svetozar Guzina was aware that Muslim forces had positions in civilian
9 zones and civilian buildings throughout the fighting, including the
10 television building, Fatima Gunic school, Dobrinja C5, and Papagajka
12 Before the conflict started and even afterwards, a considerable
13 number of people left Sarajevo via Ilidza. The Serbian Army and civilian
14 authorities did not prevent anyone from leaving. Further, higher
15 commands issued orders to facilitate unhindered passage of humanitarian
16 aid convoys. These were adhered to even though on several occasions
17 whilst carrying out routine checks it was discovered that the convoys
18 contained prohibited and undeclared goods. With regard to the sniping
19 incident near the junction of Nikola Demonja and Bulevar AVNOJ in
20 Dobrinja, Svetozar Guzina states that the distance between the alleged
21 point and the alleged place where it struck is greater than the range
22 that can be successfully attained by any sniper rifle in the VRS arsenal.
23 There is no optical visibility between the alleged place of firing and
24 the place of the incident.
25 With regard to the sniping incident in Djure Jaksica street,
1 Svetozar Guzina states that the place of the alleged incident was behind
2 the first line and that it was not logical to assume the presence of
3 civilians in this location.
4 [Interpretation] That would be the summary.
5 I'd just like to put a few questions to you. In your statement
6 here, you said that you never issued an order to fire at civilians, and
7 that your subordinates never issued such orders. Nevertheless, did it
8 happen that civilians would get killed on both sides?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. How would that happen? How do you explain that if it was not on
12 A. At any rate, it wasn't on orders. It is a fact that there were
13 civilian casualties on both sides. However, I can say freely that this
14 is collateral damage on both sides. Civilians who happened to be on the
15 front line, no one wanted to kill them. They simply happened to be there
16 because fire that had been opened was not individual fire. It was
17 automatic gunfire. There was a lot of bullet dispersion on both sides,
18 and therefore civilian casualties could not be avoided.
19 As far as the Serb side is concerned, at least in my commanding
20 the 1st Battalion, civilians were ordered not to go to their homes. It
21 was forbidden. But simply people went to their homes to see their
22 houses, to see their property, to see whether everything was in proper
23 order, and that is how quite a few ended up getting killed.
24 Q. Thank you. The armies in your area, were they properly dressed?
25 Could you make a distinction between them and civilians?
1 A. No, certainly not. The first year, year and a half, we all wore
2 camouflage. Some people had military uniforms of the TO defence, and
3 quite a few of us simply had tracksuits, trainers, civilian clothing, and
4 we went to the front line to carry out our duties dressed that way.
5 Q. Thank you. Did you learn of civilian casualties, and if so, what
6 did you do about that?
7 A. We found out about our casualties on our side. There were quite
8 a few civilian casualties, and we tried in every conceivable way to
9 remove them from the front line. We did our best, to the best of our
11 As for the Muslim side, when UNPROFOR arrived we had some
12 information to the effect that certain incidents had occurred as far as
13 Muslim civilians are concerned.
14 Q. Thank you. Were you asked to testify in any other case before
15 this Tribunal?
16 A. Yes. I think it was 2003. I was called in for an interview in
17 General Galic's case. I was in Belgrade a few times to talk to people
18 from The Hague.
19 Q. And how did it happen that you did not testify after all?
20 A. Well, probably they didn't like my answers. I mean, it is a fact
21 that during those first days of my interviews there wasn't any pressure,
22 any duress, and as the interview proceeded, there was more and more
23 pressure exerted. They were not happy with some of the answers that I
24 provided to their questions, and once I said, Now, how come you're asking
25 me to provide false testimony against my general with whom I fought for
1 four years? And they said that they had the right to transfer me and to
2 protect me in Canada, America, Europe, that that's no problem, that I
3 should just say what suited them and I didn't accept that, and that's
4 probably the reason why ultimately I did not testify in General Galic's
6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Guzina. At this point in time I have no further
8 JUDGE KWON: Before that, who are they, the Prosecutor's office
9 or the Defence of Mr. Galic?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor's office. As far as
11 I know, it was the Prosecutor's office.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Mr. Guzina, as you have noted now, your
13 evidence in most part was admitted in -- in writing, in written form,
14 i.e., your statement, in lieu of your oral testimony. Now you'll be
15 cross-examined by the representative of the Office of the Prosecutor,
16 Ms. West.
17 Yes, Ms. West.
18 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President.
19 Cross-examination by Ms. West:
20 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Guzina.
21 A. Good afternoon.
22 Q. We're going to spend a little bit of time speaking this
23 afternoon, but this will go over to next week. And the first question
24 that I want to ask you regards your area of responsibility. May we have
25 1D10070, please. I know you provided some maps for the Defence in which
1 you outlined the area in which you operated, and one of those maps is
2 going to come up shortly.
3 Do you recognise this map?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And it's -- it's a bit difficult to see, but we see a red line,
6 and it goes around the area of Nedzarici. At the very most northern part
7 of your area of responsibility -- may I ask the usher's assistance please
8 to turn on his monitor so he can mark it.
9 I'd like you to show me where the school of the blind is located,
10 and in a moment you're going to be able to mark on your screen. You can
11 just circle the building, please.
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. And you can put a B next to that, please.
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. Now, this is one of the buildings that you noted in paragraph 36
16 of your statement that was a building of significance in your area of
17 responsibility. You also noted the theology institute. Can you please
18 circle that for me.
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. And put a T next to at that, please.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. Can you sign and date that, please. Today is the 6th.
23 A. Which part of the map?
24 Q. In the bottom is fine.
25 A. [Marks]
1 JUDGE KWON: 6th of December.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The date? [Marks]
3 MS. WEST: Thank you. Mr. President, may I tender this, please.
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document marked by the witness becomes
6 Exhibit P6037, Your Honours.
7 MS. WEST:
8 Q. Now, sir, at paragraph 44 of your statement -- I see that you
9 have a copy in front of you; is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. That's fine.
12 A. May I use it though?
13 Q. Yes. I'll refer you to paragraph 44. And in paragraph 44,
14 that's when you speak about a particular incident that we have indicated
15 is incident F7. It happened on May 25th, 1994, and this is an allegation
16 that -- a sniping allegation where the round hit a bus and then
17 ricochetted off the bus and hit two women inside the bus.
18 Do you remember speaking about this incident with the Defence?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. May we have P01739, please. In a moment on your screen you're
21 going to see a map. This is from the Sarajevo map book. And this is an
22 area that I would suspect you're familiar with. This is Dobrinja;
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And if you'd look at the red number 7. Do you see that circle
1 with the number 7 on it?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And that's the crossroads of the incident that you spoke about in
4 paragraph 44; correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, on this map I think you'll be able to find the theological
7 institute if you look closely. I know you're familiar with this area,
8 but do you see the theological institute on this map?
9 A. Point 75, is that it?
10 Q. That is, and that's fine. You don't need to mark it. Were you
11 aware that at the end of the street, the end of the street where the
12 crossroads were, Bulevar AVNOJ, there was a screen placed there for the
13 purposes of deterring sniper attacks? Were you aware of that
15 A. No.
16 Q. Okay. Sir, do you concede that your battalion had sniper rifles
17 in its possession?
18 A. Could you please repeat your question?
19 Q. Did your battalion have any sniper rifles in its possession?
20 A. No.
21 Q. And so you received no information about any sniping going on
22 within your battalion. Is that what I should understand?
23 A. I received information about sniping from UNPROFOR -- or, rather,
24 the liaison officers who were in contact with us every day.
25 Q. When you say you received information from UNPROFOR, were they
1 suggesting that sniping was coming out of your area of responsibility?
2 A. UNPROFOR officers conveyed it that way. However, the fact is
3 that it was only one side, that is to say the Muslim side, that conveyed
4 this to them. We had not even seen that activity, and after all, we
5 hadn't carried it out to begin with. It was just one-sided. UNPROFOR
6 conveyed it to us, whereas this was conveyed to them by the Muslims and
7 the documentation was from the Muslim side.
8 Q. And when UNPROFOR approached you with that information, did you
9 tell them you had no sniper rifles in your battalion?
10 A. Specifically in this case, if we're talking about incident F7 --
11 Q. I'm not. I'm speaking generally.
12 A. Oh, generally. The fact is that in my 1st Battalion there was no
13 need for us to have sniper rifles. You will see where the separation
14 line was in the 1st Battalion. In 90 per cent of all cases, it was just
15 the street. So there was 25 to 30 metres involved only. So in this
16 urban area, a sniper could not operate at all.
17 Q. Okay. And we'll get back to that, but let's go back to my
18 question, which is: When the UNPROFOR approached you and suggested to
19 you that there were allegations -- allegations of sniping coming out of
20 your area of responsibility, did you tell UNPROFOR, We don't have sniper
21 rifles. We are not sniping. Did you deny that you were doing that?
22 A. Well, of course I denied it, because I know that we did not have
23 any sniper rifles in the area of the 1st Battalion. As a matter of fact,
24 I know that we did not have trained sniper shooters, and I claim that
25 with full responsibility. I claim that with full responsibility, and I
1 stand by that. Now, whether there was a hunting gun or an M-48 with some
2 optics possibly, but sniper rifles, no, we did not have any.
3 Q. Well, you just said you had no trained sniper shooters, but you
4 would agree with me, wouldn't you, that even an untrained sniper shooter
5 but somebody who was just a good shot could hit a stationary bus. That
6 seems reasonable, don't it?
7 A. Well, it would be that way sort of.
8 Q. I'm not sure what you mean by that answer. Is it true that
9 somebody who is not necessarily a trained sniper could easily hit a
10 stationary bus?
11 A. Well, if this is not a trained sniper shooter, if he were to fire
12 ten bullets at the bus, maybe one or two would hit the target, but
13 certainly not all ten.
14 Q. Okay, we'll leave that there.
15 MS. WEST: Mr. President, may I inquire if this is a good time to
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Mr. Guzina, we have to adjourn for the week
18 and resume next week on Tuesday at 9.00, but in the meantime, you are not
19 supposed to discuss with anybody else about your testimony while you are
20 in the course of giving testimony. Do you understand that, sir,
21 Mr. Guzina?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand that.
23 JUDGE KWON: Then the hearing is adjourned.
24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.43 p.m.,
25 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 11th day
1 of December, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.