Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 31057

 1                           Thursday, 6 December 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  The Chamber didn't have the

 7     time to discuss about the Tintor interview's admissibility, so the

 8     Chamber will give its ruling on Tuesday next week.

 9             Yes, Ms. Sutherland, please continue.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Thank you.

11                           WITNESS:  VELJKO LUBURA [Resumed]

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13                           Cross-examination by Ms. Sutherland:  [Continued]

14        Q.   Mr. Lubura, we finished off yesterday when it was put to you that

15     the Bosnian Serb side denied access to repair lines, and you said

16     transcript page 31054:

17             "I personally do not know about that.  It was a matter for

18     UNPROFOR.  They were the ones who were in charge of this operation and

19     then they would inform us that they had received approval.  That was the

20     duty of UNPROFOR and that was what we had agreed upon at Sarajevo

21     airport."

22             Do you recall that?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   I just wanted to clarify this, and we're talking about the -- the

25     time period of the conflict.  If we look at 65 ter number 24262.

Page 31058

 1     Mr. Lubura, this document in front of you is a monthly report July 1993

 2     of the utility situation and repair missions situation details.  And if

 3     we can go to paragraph 11, please.

 4             Now, UNPROFOR says here that -- that the Serbs denied any access

 5     to the repair location on the line supplying the town Reljevo-Vogosca.

 6     This denial of access is not something you would have heard about, is it?

 7        A.   No, I didn't hear about that.  I told you that it was an UNPROFOR

 8     obligation to gain approval from both the Serb and Muslim side in terms

 9     of any repairs to the distribution lines leading to Sarajevo.  It was

10     their obligation.  If we established that there was a cut somewhere, the

11     UNPROFOR had to obtain permission from both sides and then two teams, one

12     per side, went in the field to fix it.  It was something for them to do.

13     My part was to use my expert knowledge to carry out the necessary

14     repairs.  That's the extent of it.  I had no connections to either of the

15     armed forces.

16        Q.   And you -- on that note, you didn't know first-hand how the

17     damage had occurred.  You were just there to fix the damage.  That's

18     right, isn't it?

19        A.   Let me tell you this:  If there was a cut on the transmission

20     lines in the Reljevo transformer station, we had a surge protection

21     barrier where we could detect where the cut occurred, whether it was a

22     single phase or double phase cut.  We could tell, because the instruments

23     showed it to us, the protection instruments.

24        Q.   Did you know that access for repairs being -- were being granted

25     in exchange for concessions from international forces or the BiH side?

Page 31059

 1        A.   I repeat, if there was a malfunction and it usually occurred

 2     along disengagement lines at Sarajevo airport, both Serbs and Muslims

 3     came to agree with UNPROFOR on the date of repairs.  UNPROFOR was there

 4     to secure a lull --

 5        Q.   Mr. Lubura, that wasn't my question -- sorry.  My question was

 6     did you know that access was being granted in exchange for concessions

 7     from international forces or BiH side?  For example, if we look at a

 8     document.  If we can have Exhibit P00896.

 9        A.   Where is the document?

10        Q.   It's coming up.  It will be one moment.  If we can go to page 6

11     of the document.  That's 1 of -- sorry.  Page -- yes, page 6 of the

12     document.  It says here under "Utilities":

13             "The Serb military continues to insist that there will be no

14     restoration of utilities until the fighting around the city has stopped."

15             Did you ever hear about this?

16        A.   No.  This is the first time I see this document.  I don't know.

17        Q.   And if we could have a look at 65 ter number 24264, please.  This

18     is dated the 27th of September, 1994, from Akashi to Annan, and if we can

19     go to paragraph (b) under Electricity:

20             "Electricity repairs have begun on the Sarajevo network following

21     Karadzic's agreement to clear the access of repair teams provided

22     UNPROFOR subsequently also addressed the problem of the eastern and

23     Northern Bosnia power lines, of particular interest to the Serb civilian

24     populations."

25             Again, this is something that you have heard of or not?

Page 31060

 1        A.   Yes, yes.  I know well that the transmission lines between

 2     Reljevo and Kiseljak which had an antenna connection to the

 3     Jablanica-Kakanj distribution line, there was a malfunction at

 4     Mount Kokoska in the direction of Kiseljak.  On that occasion, UNPROFOR

 5     obtained approval from all three sides, because on this occasion the

 6     Croatian side was included as well as the Muslim and Serbian, and my team

 7     fixed the transmission line at Kokoska so that there should be an

 8     unhindered supply of electricity to the transformer station.

 9        Q.   This text suggests that repairs didn't begin until the agreement

10     was given by the accused clearing access.  Was this something that you

11     were aware of?

12        A.   I only know that there was a malfunction at Mount Kokoska on the

13     transmission line there, and we fixed it.  UNPROFOR came and we sent two

14     teams in the field.  There was another team on the Croatian side from

15     Kiseljak, and we fixed the transmission line at Mount Kokoska.

16        Q.   Thank you.  You can't exclude the possibility that there were

17     political decisions not to -- that -- that there were political decisions

18     to delay or deny the repairing of lines that were feeding into central

19     Sarajevo having seen these documents.

20        A.   I was not interested in politics.  I'm an electrical engineer.

21     My only job was to maintain and fix electricity facilities that were

22     within my area of expertise.

23        Q.   You mentioned in your statement at paragraph 15 and yesterday at

24     transcript page 31046 that you didn't have enough spare parts,

25     particularly transformer oil, insulators, switches, distribution devices

Page 31061

 1     and protection devices.  Were there any cases where parts, for example,

 2     transformer oil, were brought in by UNPROFOR but their use was being

 3     blocked by the Bosnian Serb side?

 4        A.   I do know that UNPROFOR transported much of the spare parts

 5     needed for the transformer stations via Kiseljak and Ilidza to Sarajevo.

 6     We intervened with UNPROFOR once, and then in 1994 they also supplied us

 7     with one-third of the spare parts, whereas the other two-thirds went to

 8     the Muslim side.  The one-third we received remained in our warehouse --

 9        Q.   That's not responsive --

10        A.   -- in Ilidza.

11        Q.   -- to my question.  My question was were there any cases where

12     parts were being brought in but their use was being blocked by the

13     Bosnian Serb side?  Do you know of any -- are you aware of any cases?

14        A.   No.  No.  I wasn't aware of it.

15        Q.   You said that you were never ordered to cut off electric power to

16     any part of Sarajevo.  This is in paragraph 17 of your statement.  This

17     doesn't exclude the possibility that other Bosnian Serb authorities cut

18     off electric power.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is speculative.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As the director of the facility --

21             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, what is your

22     point -- what was your point, and what was your basis?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness is called to speculate,

24     to guess.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I --

Page 31062

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Would you like to respond?  I don't think --

 2     let me read your question again.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I think it's a yes or a no answer.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Simply the witness can answer the question.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As the facility manager, I was

 6     never ordered by anyone, be it civilian or military authorities, to cut

 7     off electricity.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 9        Q.   As I said, my question was:  Does it exclude the possibility that

10     other --

11             JUDGE MORRISON:  Dr. Karadzic's objection had some basis,

12     because -- if you look at the answers the witness has already given, it

13     may be a truism that it doesn't exclude the possibility, but the answer

14     to that, yes or no, is simply an answer that there may or may not be a

15     possibility.  It doesn't advance the case.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I take your point, Your Honour.

17        Q.   Mr. Lubura, you said you -- you were never ordered to cut off

18     electric power, and -- and you said that you never would.  It is true, is

19     it not, that power was cut off by the Bosnian Serbs to the areas in

20     central Sarajevo?  Mr. Lubura?

21        A.   Your question is unclear.  What do you mean cut off by the

22     Bosnian Serbs to the areas in central Sarajevo?  It is not clear to me.

23     How could the Serbs obstruct supply to the centre of Sarajevo?  It's not

24     clear to me.  If you look at my grid schematics, you could see that we

25     forwarded voltage from Reljevo to Buca Potok via the distribution line

Page 31063

 1     Sarajevo 10 Reljevo and Sarajevo 8 Buca Potok.  Had the transmission line

 2     been dammed in that part, there would have not been any electricity in

 3     the central part of Sarajevo under Muslim control.  In other words, that

 4     part of the transformer -- transmission line had to be fixed first.

 5        Q.   And there was also -- you were also feeding into -- from Vogosca

 6     down to Velesici and Kosevo.  Isn't that right?

 7        A.   No.  From Vogosca the transmission line Vogosca-Velesici was

 8     never fixed.  There were attempts to have it fixed but it never was, not

 9     until May 1995 when I joined the Energoinvest company.  The only

10     transmission line that was functioning, taking electricity supply to the

11     centre of Sarajevo was Reljevo-Buca Potok.

12        Q.   Okay, if we can have 65 ter number 24253, page 3, please.  This

13     is -- this is an UNPROFOR document from -- a UN document from the civil

14     affairs officer to the acting DSRSG in -- dated the 26th of May, 1995,

15     and it says, "This morning --" just at the bottom of what's on the screen

16     now:

17             "This morning civil affairs has been informed by SCS that the

18     electricity supply to the city is cut.  It appears that Pale authorities

19     made a political decision to cut electricity supply along the Vogosca and

20     Reljevo lines.  If such situation persists Sarajevo will have no water

21     soon."

22             So, sir, this is a contemporaneous document at the time of the

23     NATO air-strikes which shows that a decision was made by Pale to cut

24     electricity into the city.

25        A.   Sorry, what date is this?

Page 31064

 1        Q.   It's dated the 26th of May, 1995.  If we can go back to page 1,

 2     please.

 3        A.   By that time I was in Lukavica, and I do not recall this.  The

 4     manager by that time was Mr. Jovicic, whereas I returned to the

 5     Energoinvest company.

 6        Q.   When -- when did you go to Lukavica?

 7        A.   On the 15th of May.  I was already in the Energoinvest at

 8     Lukavica that day; 1995, that is.

 9        Q.   And I think you said just a moment ago that by May they had fixed

10     the line from Vogosca to Velesici, did you not?

11        A.   They didn't fix that as long as I was the facility manager.

12     That's what I said.  The only functioning transmission line was

13     Reljevo-Buca Potok.

14        Q.   And we can see here that this document makes reference to -- to

15     the supply being cut along the Reljevo line into the city of Sarajevo.

16        A.   During my testimony, I did say that it was the only transmission

17     line that was operational which could carry electricity from Reljevo to

18     Buca Potok.  That means Sarajevo 10 Reljevo and Sarajevo 8 Buca Potok.

19     That transmission line functioned for the most part.  7 Buca Potok,

20     you're right.

21        Q.   If we can have a look at 65 ter number 24254, please.  On -- this

22     is dated the 31st of July, 1995, another UN document, a Weekly Situation

23     Report.  If we can go to page 7 under paragraph (F) "Utilities."  It

24     says:

25             "Serb authorities in western Sarajevo are now willing to talk to

Page 31065

 1     their Bosnian counterparts, said they cut the water -- cut off the water,

 2     electricity and gas supplies in late May" 1995 "to punish the Muslims for

 3     their offensive around the city."

 4             You said that you weren't aware of this electricity being cut off

 5     in May 1995, but were you aware that the Bosnian Serbs cut off the water

 6     on occasions in order to punish the Muslims either for their offensives

 7     around the city?

 8        A.   You see, this document is from June 1995.  I said that by that

 9     time I was already in Lukavica in Energoinvest.  Hence I couldn't have

10     known what was -- about what was going on in Ilidza.

11        Q.   Mr. Lubura, I said that you had previously testified that you

12     weren't there in May.  My question was:  Are you aware that the

13     Bosnian Serbs cut off the water -- the electricity or the utilities, in

14     fact, to punish the Muslims?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have the document or a

16     reference that this was indeed carried out?  This is an interpretation of

17     the talks or negotiations, but was this implemented at all?

18     Ms. Sutherland is putting her questions as if this was the case.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland was asking whether witness knew or

20     not.  The witness can answer easily.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course I didn't know.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we can go to Defence 65 ter exhibit --

23             JUDGE KWON:  By the way, how much longer would you need,

24     Ms. Sutherland?  Your time was up a while ago, and you seem to not to pay

25     attention to your time at all.

Page 31066

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I thought that I had 20 minutes --

 2     sorry, 20 minutes this morning.  And I note I have an additional five

 3     minutes, and I do note that the accused took 45 minutes in chief

 4     yesterday as well as tendering a statement.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Let's continue.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could have 65 ter 1D03405, please.

 7        Q.   This is dated the 28th of May, an UNPROFOR Weekly Situation

 8     Report.  On paragraph -- e-court page 3 at paragraph 6, summarising the

 9     events following the air-strikes, it says:

10             "They have cut the water and electricity supplies to Sarajevo."

11             And then if we can go to page 17 -- or paragraph 17 on page 6.

12             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  I'm wondering what is

13     the point of putting documents to him during a time that he wasn't there.

14     This is now the third document.  They haven't tendered the first two,

15     neither of them seem to be admissible.  What is the point of putting a

16     third one to him?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Would you like to respond, Ms. Sutherland?

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, first of all, Mr. Karadzic made the

19     interjection that he wanted to know whether in fact it had been cut off

20     and I shouldn't have risen to his bait.  This document clearly shows that

21     it was cut off.  I will move on, Your Honour.

22        Q.   Sir, up until you were in Lukavica, how long were you in

23     Lukavica --

24             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. -- yes.  Just --

25             THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]

Page 31067

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  The Chamber sees a point in

 2     Mr. Robinson's observation.  It's difficult to see the point of putting

 3     similar documents to the witness.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  As I said, I rose to Mr. Karadzic's bait on him

 5     wanting to know whether it had been cut off.  I was simply showing this

 6     document to show that it was reported that it was cut off as was the case

 7     with 65 ter number --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  So I don't see the point of putting the similar --

 9     put documents.  Why don't you put your question to the witness?

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I said I would move on.

11             JUDGE KWON:  I didn't hear that.  Thank you.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:

13        Q.   Mr. Lubura, how long were you in Lukavica for?  You said that you

14     went to Lukavica, I think on the 15th of May, 1995; is that right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] How long were you there?

17        A.   I still live in Lukavica.

18        Q.   Sir, in relation to the time period prior to May 1995 after you

19     left Sarajevo, dealing with what you said yesterday at transcript

20     page 31046 and 31047, that the transmission lines Sokolac-Vogosca was not

21     repaired and that you being the Bosnian Serb side were forced to connect

22     the transmission line Poljine-Pale so that you could get electricity from

23     Visegrad to Vogosca; is that right?  Do you recall saying that?

24        A.   Yes, and I even wrote that.  We fixed the 110 kV line, and we

25     also repaired the line leading to Poljine, but from Poljine to Sarajevo 4

Page 31068

 1     transformer station at Vogosca we never managed to repair that.  That is

 2     why we built one and a half kilometres on wooden pillars, and we switched

 3     it to 35 voltage and thereby supplied Vogosca and parts of Ilijas with

 4     the electricity from Visegrad.

 5        Q.   And this transition line was installed and put into operation at

 6     Pretis, yes?

 7        A.   Pretis tasked the Vogosca municipality, and parts of Vogosca

 8     municipality had power supply.

 9        Q.   This -- this transformer that you -- that you installed was put

10     into operation at Pretis; correct?

11        A.   I don't know if Pretis was in operation or not.  That was beyond

12     my remit.  I never went to either Pretis factory for the TAS factory.  I

13     just passed by them.

14        Q.   The exhibit that was tendered through you yesterday, D02545, the

15     15th of September, 1993, document which was signed by you, doesn't that

16     state that the transformer was installed and put into operation at

17     Pretis?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Why don't we show him the document.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  D02545, Your Honour -- Mr. Registrar [sic].

20        Q.   Then I have one final question -- area for you, Mr. Lubura.

21        A.   Yes.  I see this document.  I signed it at the request of the

22     Executive Committee of the Serbian municipality of Vogosca.

23        Q.   Do you agree that it says that there's now 110 -- is the pipeline

24     from Pale to Pretis; is that right?

25        A.   This is the Sokolac-Vogosca transmission line.  It's not 110, but

Page 31069

 1     we switched it to 35 voltage and you can see from this letter that we

 2     installed --

 3        Q.   Installed what?

 4        A.   A transformer.  8 MVA transformer which was insufficient for this

 5     area, but nevertheless it was beneficial for the population of Vogosca

 6     and parts of Ilijas to have a continuous energy supply.  The needs were

 7     much higher, but this was sufficient.

 8        Q.   Mr. Lubura, you said on page 13 at paragraph 13 of your statement

 9     that the Serbs were prepared to transmit energy from Lukavica,

10     Sarajevo 20 that is, to the substations in Dobrinja, Otoka and

11     Skenderija.  But you said that the Muslims showed no interest in this

12     proposal.  Are you saying that the Muslim side never agreed to repairing

13     the lines feeding these substations should be a priority?

14        A.   I made this proposal to Mr. Durmic at the meetings that we had,

15     but it never materialised.  And I have to say that two times 110

16     Lukavica-Skenderija transmission line hasn't been repaired to this date.

17     It is still inoperational.  The rest were fixed during the war.

18        Q.   Can we very quickly see 24265.  This is the -- this is the

19     meeting at the Sarajevo airport on the 7th of July, 1994.  And if we go

20     down it says both sides agreed -- if we can go further down the page.

21     Onto the next page.  That the -- under -- under subparagraph (B).  Could

22     we go to the next page, please.  I'm sorry, it's on the last page.  Under

23     (B) the transmission lines Jablanica-Hadzici-Blazuj and then

24     Blazuj-Famos-Lukavica and Lukavica-Otoka-Nedzarici were agreed on to be a

25     top priority.

Page 31070

 1        A.   In my previous answers I said that that was my proposal that

 2     Lukavica-Otoka-Nedzarici would be a priority, but it never materialised.

 3     This is only the confirmation of my testimony, because as you can see I

 4     attended this meeting along with engineers Kulic and Mijatovic, and I

 5     proposed that this transmission line be repaired.  That was my

 6     suggestion.

 7        Q.   But does -- this document does negate the idea that the BiH

 8     didn't want to fix it.  They wanted it to be a top priority.  Isn't that

 9     right?

10        A.   There is no Bosnian side.  There are both sides present here.

11     Both parties agreed, and I made this proposal at this meeting to have

12     this transmission line repaired because the southern part of

13     Sarajevo Polje was supplied before the war only from the Famos

14     transformer station, and to that end I made a suggestion to -- to make

15     Lukavica-Otoka-Nedzarici transmission line so that the electricity that

16     arrived at Lukavica station from Mratinje hydro-electric plant in

17     Montenegro be transmitted to the part of Sarajevo under Muslim control.

18     As I said, while I was the manager of transmission this never happened.

19     It was repaired only after the war.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Mr. Lubura.

21             I have no further questions, Your Honour.

22             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, I actually would like to have us

23     tender 4265, the last document that was referenced.

24             JUDGE KWON:  I see no problem.  Shall we admit it as a Defence

25     exhibit?

Page 31071

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  As you wish, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 4265 receives number D2548,

 4     Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellency, a few

 7     questions directly related to the cross-examination.

 8                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Let's start with the last.  Mr. Lubura, the

10     question put here was whether the Muslims were interested or not in

11     restoring proper supply, and for that purpose I would need D1127, please.

12             While we are waiting, you were shown the document dated

13     29th of May, 1995, and here's another document of 15 June 1995.  I'm

14     going to read it:

15             [In English] "At the very last minute, the Bosnian side this

16     afternoon rejected a proposal to restore utilities to Sarajevo.  The

17     Serbian side had agreed to the necessary technical arrangements, arranged

18     by Mr. John Fawcett from the office the special co-ordinator in Sarajevo.

19     But the Bosnian side insisted on UNPROFOR control of Bacevo (Sarajevo's

20     main water pumping station, which is on Serb-controlled territory) as

21     well as ... gas supplies ..."

22             [Interpretation] Item 3 --

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Excuse me, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  This is re-examination and Mr. Karadzic should

Page 31072

 1     be putting a proposition, laying a foundation before he puts a document

 2     to the witness.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Fair enough.  Do you understand that point,

 4     Mr. Karadzic?

 5                           [Defence confer]

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  May the document be taken off the screen.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. Lubura, if you were in favour of this -- or, rather, were you

10     in favour of having the Muslim side an uninterrupted supply of

11     electricity?

12        A.   Yes, I was.  I would have slept soundly if everybody had

13     electricity.  I wanted every side or both sides to have as much

14     electricity as possible.  However, the technical capacities were such, so

15     we only had 20 plus 3.

16        Q.   Twenty megawatts plus three for either side?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   What was the reason for them not to receive any power supply --

19     or, rather, to avoid doing the repair and therefore improve the supply?

20        A.   Well, that has to do with the technological capacity of

21     transmission lines that were operational.  They could not allow any

22     increase.  I don't know how many generators were working in Kakanj, so

23     technologically speaking, it was impossible to increase it, because the

24     transformer station in Kiseljak was also supplied from the same source,

25     and they also needed to 20 or 30 megawatts.

Page 31073

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Lubura, because both of you are speaking the

 2     same language and which are to be translated into English and French,

 3     please speak slowly and put a pause before you start answering the

 4     question.

 5             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   During cross-examination it was suggested to you that the Serbian

 8     party intentionally cut off electricity to the Muslim part of Sarajevo.

 9     How could this -- this have been achieved?  Who did the Serbian side have

10     to ask to have this completed?

11        A.   They would have to ask me, because I was the manager of the

12     Ilidza plant.  Only me and no one else.

13        Q.   Have you ever received such a request?

14        A.   No, I haven't, neither from the military nor from the civilian

15     authorities.  Mr. President, I was answerable to the general director of

16     Elektroprivreda of Republika Srpska and his assistant for technical

17     affairs, the manager who was in the head office in Banja Luka, and these

18     were the only people that I reported to.

19        Q.   I'm waiting for the interpretation.  Today you mentioned that the

20     Muslim side was not interested in a few lines and branches.  Do you know

21     that the Muslim side was engaged in sabotaging the provision of

22     utilities?

23        A.   Everything that we agreed at the Sarajevo airport we tried to put

24     into practice.  I said it was my proposal to fix the

25     Lukavica-Otoka-Nedzarici line which was a project that was never

Page 31074

 1     implemented.  I also know that sometime in the summer of 1995 the Muslims

 2     built transformer station in Zovik, and by means of an overhead line they

 3     reached Igman, then they installed a 110 kV cable downwards and in my

 4     assessment that provided them with about 80 megawatts of electricity from

 5     the Jablanica hydro-electric power plant.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I show the document now to the

 7     witness?

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.  Do you have any observations?

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No, Your Honour, the document's dated the

11     15th of June, 1995, at which time the witness said that he wasn't in

12     Sarajevo at that time.

13             JUDGE KWON:  That's the point, Mr. Robinson, you raised.

14             MR. ROBINSON:  I made that same point to Dr. Karadzic.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But I'm interested in the

16     phenomenon that Mr. Lubura was discussing and that is that the opposing

17     side was sabotaging these attempts and it can shed some more light on the

18     document of 29th of May of that same year.

19             JUDGE KWON:  You can't have it both ways.  That document is

20     already in evidence, and there's no need for you to tender it, but you

21     can just put your case or your question to the witness.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Today in cross-examination you were asked a number of questions

25     relating to the requests by the Serbian side for reciprocity -- or,

Page 31075

 1     rather, concessions so that something be done for them in order for them

 2     to allow something, and reference was made to document P896 in which the

 3     Serbian side requested first combat operations to be suspended and then

 4     the utilities could be repaired.  Why was it necessary to suspend combat

 5     operations?

 6        A.   Well, look, we couldn't go out into the field if the war was

 7     going on.  All our technicians would get killed.  We needed a cease-fire,

 8     and we needed approval from both sides for our crews to go out and repair

 9     the transmission lines.  I was concerned about the lives and safety of my

10     men, because I didn't have too many of them, and therefore I had to have

11     100 per cent guarantees by UNPROFOR that there would be no shooting and

12     that we can do our work under such conditions.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Western Bosnia or Republika Srpska or the Banja Luka,

14     Krajina, did they receive power from Jablanica?  And was this question

15     ever raised as a matter of reciprocity or a proposal to strike a balance?

16        A.   I was in charge only for the Ilidza plant, but since my head

17     office was in Banja Luka, I was aware of their problems, too, and I was

18     personally involved in the building of the so-called Posavski lines

19     through the corridor running between Brcko and Modrica.  We built two or

20     three transmission lines in order to have power for Banja Luka from

21     Ugljevik.  Banja Luka and Bosanska Krajina as well.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Since you were in charge of Ilidza, in August of 1992

23     were you at Ilidza?

24        A.   Yes.  I arrived at Ilidza in August, and I had come from Pale.

25        Q.   Did the Muslim side ever shell the water and gas and other supply

Page 31076

 1     installations?

 2        A.   Well, the major disruption in the supply of electricity and water

 3     for both the Muslim and the Serbian parts of Sarajevo took place in

 4     December -- or, rather, the 12th of December when we were shelled from

 5     Igman.  According to the information that we received over the radio from

 6     our electrician on duty, that had been ordered by Juka Prazina.  At that

 7     time --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Yes, Mr. Lubura.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  [Overlapping speakers]

10             JUDGE KWON:  Where did it rise from the cross-examination?  And I

11     also note your -- yes, Ms. Sutherland.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  That was my point, Your Honour.  It doesn't

13     arise from cross-examination.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, during

15     cross-examination it was disputed that the Muslim side sabotaged.  It was

16     put that the Serbian side cut off supply intentionally.  Page 13, lines 6

17     and 7.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, we're talking about supply of

19     electricity, not the shelling.

20             JUDGE KWON:  This is separate.  It's a separate matter,

21     Mr. Karadzic.  Please move on to another topic.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, very well.  I

23     will move on.  I just wanted to see whether the Serbs indeed did that or

24     was it simply a result of shelling, because shelling causes damage, and

25     we have proof.  If you give me one minute, I'll show you D1246.

Page 31077

 1             JUDGE KWON:  As a matter of fact, you already gave evidence

 2     yourself.  I don't see the point of continuing this way.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I dispute the Prosecution position

 4     that the Serbs were cutting off supply, whereas we have proof that it was

 5     not so.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE BAIRD:  Dr. Karadzic, can you assist us with what aspect of

 8     the cross that this would be pertaining to.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, Madam Sutherland

10     suggested to the witness that it was the Serbs who intentionally cut off

11     water and electricity supply to the Muslim part of Sarajevo.  We have

12     proof, however, that it happened as a result of shelling, that it was not

13     intentional.  And it goes directly to what the Prosecution stated and

14     confirms the witnesses words in his statement.  On the other hand, on

15     page 13 that we pointed out, it had to do with whether the Muslims wanted

16     to have it fixed or did they sabotage such repairs so as to increase the

17     plight of the inhabitants of Sarajevo.  The document speaks to it as well

18     as some other documents we have.

19             JUDGE BAIRD:  Ms. Sutherland.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  [Microphone not activated] Your Honour, we

21     haven't heard evidence --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  We haven't heard evidence from this witness at

24     all about the shelling.  It's not part of cross-examination, and

25     Mr. Karadzic shouldn't be allowed to re-examine on this issue.

Page 31078

 1             JUDGE BAIRD:  But do you agree that it was suggested to the

 2     witness that it was the Serbs who had intentionally cut off water and

 3     electricity supplies to the Muslims?

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.  The documents that I put to

 5     the witness clearly show that.  I put that to the witness, yes.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber sees the point of Mr. Karadzic's

 8     submissions.  We allow the question.

 9             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please look at D1127

11     briefly, which is two weeks following the document shown by the

12     Prosecution.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, this --

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If this is --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, we dealt with the document.  Instead

16     of putting the document, why don't you put the question to the witness

17     directly.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And, Your Honour --

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  -- with respect, this is something that

21     Mr. Karadzic should have done in his case in chief if he wanted to elicit

22     this sort of information from the witness.

23             JUDGE KWON:  In his examination-in-chief, witness said that he

24     was never ordered to cut off the electricity and others, and in your

25     cross-examination it was put to the witness Serbs intentionally cut off

Page 31079

 1     electricity and water, et cetera.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, that was the summary that

 3     Mr. Karadzic was reading out to the witness.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Para 17 of his statement.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.  I put that to him.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  So we allow the question suggested by Mr. Karadzic

 7     in his previous submission.  Let us continue.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we have a look at

 9     D -- sorry, I put a question to you.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   I asked you about the reasons for the supply being cut off for

12     Sarajevo.  In 1992 you were in Ilidza.  You held the position you had in

13     your company.  Were there any cases of force majeure?  Were there any

14     cases of combat resulting in the cutting off of supplies due to shelling

15     or infantry fighting?

16        A.   I believe I said yesterday that there were two types of failures

17     at -- at transformer stations, the so-called physical failures or

18     failures of the equipment.  Physical failures mainly happened due to

19     combat.  Lines were destroyed, isolation was destroyed, et cetera.  Those

20     were physical failures which required between five and seven days of

21     repair.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Can we next look at D1246.  Was there any connection

23     between the supply of water and the supply of electricity?

24        A.   Yes.  Most of the water is brought by pumps.  I think there were

25     13 in Bacevo and Komovsi [phoen].  They pumped the water to the central

Page 31080

 1     reservoir from which it was distributed to the Mojmilo reservoir

 2     supplying the city of Sarajevo.  If the transformer station at Blazuj had

 3     no electricity, the pumps were not operational, resulting in the fact

 4     that there was no water.  However, Ilidza didn't have water as well in

 5     such cases; in other words, both the Serbs and Muslims were out of water

 6     in such cases.

 7        Q.   Can you read out the first sentence where it says that Ilidza

 8     makes the following decision.  Who is going to have their water supply

 9     cut off due to the shelling?

10             JUDGE KWON:  Again, it's a way of conducting the re-examination

11     in a leading way.  I think that's the point you're rising,

12     Ms. Sutherland?

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour, two reasons:  For that and

14     also for -- what has the supply of water -- the connection between the

15     supply of water and the supply of electricity got to do with the

16     cross-examination?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Did you not suggest to the witness that Serbs had

18     cut off electricity and water intentionally?

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Just instead of putting the document, why don't you

21     lead some foundation before you show the document to the witness.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think I have when I asked him

23     whether the supply of water was in any way connected with the supply of

24     electricity, and before that I asked him for the reasons of damage, and

25     this is what this document speaks of.

Page 31081

 1             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think you did that.  You said that after

 2     showing the document.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may, I would ask the witness

 4     if this tallies with his knowledge of the situation.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the 4th of August, I

 6     believe.  I wasn't there at the time.  I arrived in Ilidza on the

 7     15th of August.  Mr. Despotovic was the facility manager at the time.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know what the position was of the state

10     leadership vis-a-vis supplying civilians on both sides?

11        A.   Twice or thrice I was a member of the delegation headed by deputy

12     prime minister, late Professor Koljevic.  I know that he always used to

13     say that we have to make life easier for both sides in the time of war,

14     making sure that they both had enough electricity, water, gas, et cetera.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Could we look at D104, please.  Please cast a look at

16     this directive of mine from March 1993 and tell us whether the gist of

17     the directive is in keeping with what you could observe concerning our

18     position in terms of supply.

19        A.   Yes.  Yes.  This only confirms my testimony.  We never

20     intentionally cut off electricity or water unilaterally.  Even where

21     repairs were needed, we tried to make things operational as quickly as

22     possible.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know whether the ministries of the RS

24     government undertook certain measures to ensure the supply of Sarajevo?

25        A.   Yes, they did.  They assisted us.  Our basic problem was fuel.

Page 31082

 1     Through the government, we received certain amounts of fuel, and UNPROFOR

 2     frequently helped in that regard too.  As I said, we had to maintain over

 3     250 kilometres of transmission lines.  We had fuel expenses, salaries,

 4     et cetera, and the government helped us out.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have D116.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honours, is Mr. Karadzic going to put a

 8     question?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This has to do with the question I

10     put concerning the ministries and their efforts.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Do you know who Borivoje Sendic was?

13        A.   I met him concerning the Ugljevik-Zvornik transmission line.  I

14     believe he was the minister of agriculture with his seat in Bijeljina.

15        Q.   Thank you.  D116, please.  Could you read out the title for the

16     Chamber.  What was the subject of this meeting?  And I was informed about

17     this.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   What is the subject?

20        A.   Delivery of drinking water to Sarajevo.  The date is the

21     18th of July, 1993.  A meeting was held in Pale between the

22     representatives of this ministry and water supply companies in the area

23     of Sarajevo's Serbian municipalities.  The topic of the meeting was the

24     supply of drinking water to the part of Sarajevo chiefly populated by

25     Muslims but which also has a large number of Serbian citizens who are

Page 31083

 1     practically imprisoned in this city.

 2             Should I go on?

 3        Q.   Yes.  The next item, the one pertaining to electricity.

 4        A.   Let me see.  Electricity.

 5        Q.   It says the main conclusion, and then we have the supply.

 6        A.   I can't make this out.

 7        Q.   No, just below that.

 8        A.   The supply of electricity to pump stations is not continuous;

 9     i.e., interruptions in supplying pump stations with electricity are

10     frequent and are chiefly caused by the war operations of the Muslim

11     forces.

12        Q.   Thank you.  So as not to go on reading --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  That was the point I was going to make,

15     Your Honour, about the witness just simply reading out the document which

16     is already an exhibit.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Time for you to put a question, Mr. Karadzic.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   How does this fit into what you knew about the efforts of the

20     authorities of Republika Srpska to provide supplies to Sarajevo?

21        A.   In my view, all of these documents are positive, favourable;

22     namely, that both electricity and water were regularly sent to the Muslim

23     part of Sarajevo.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Can we see the next page.

25             JUDGE KWON:  At least you need to pause after the -- until the

Page 31084

 1     interpreting is over, Mr. Karadzic.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do apologise.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. Lubura, please, can you read the handwritten part down here

 5     where my signature is.

 6        A.   "I agree.  R. Karadzic."

 7        Q.   Thank you.  I have no further questions, Mr. Lubura.  Thank you.

 8        A.   Thank you, too.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Well --

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   And in the translation of this document, we do not see who it is

12     that gave his agreement.

13        A.   "I agree," or "in agreement.  R.  Karadzic," Radovan Karadzic.

14     Your signature; isn't that right?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But it's not in the translation who

16     it was that gave his agreement.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Usually the signature is not translated, but you

18     have evidence now.

19             Mr. Lubura, that concludes your evidence.  On behalf of the

20     Chamber, I thank you for your coming to The Hague to give it.  Now you're

21     free to go.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Shall we rise altogether?  Yes,

24     Ms. Sutherland.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour, because Ms. Gustafson's taking

Page 31085

 1     the next witness so we would need to swap.  So perhaps taking an early

 2     break would be a good idea.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll have a break for half an hour.

 4     We'll rise all together.

 5             We'll have a break and resume at 10 to 11.00.

 6                           [The witness withdrew]

 7                           --- Recess taken at 10.18 a.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 10.52 a.m.

 9                           [The witness entered court]

10             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness take the solemn declaration.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

12     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13                           WITNESS:  BRANKO RADAN

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Radan.  Please be seated and make

16     yourself comfortable.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Radan.

22        A.   Good morning.

23        Q.   Did you give the Defence team a statement?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Could we please have 1D8609 [as interpreted] in

Page 31086

 1     e-court.  And I would kindly ask you that we both pause so that the

 2     interpreters would accurately interpret what is being said.  So please

 3     pause before answering my questions.

 4             1D6809.  Thank you.

 5             Mr. Radan, do you see this statement before you on the screen?

 6        A.   Yes, I do.

 7        Q.   Have you read this statement, and did you sign it then?

 8        A.   Yes, I read it and signed it.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Does it accurately reflect what you said to the

10     Defence team?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   If I were to put the same questions to you today were your

13     answers basically be the same?

14        A.   Fully.  They would be absolutely the same.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I would like to

17     tender this statement as well as the associated documents, package

18     92 ter.  I would like to have it admitted.

19             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, also there are two documents only

20     to be tendered, and we would ask that they be added to our 65 ter list as

21     we didn't have them on our list at the time this witness gave his

22     statement.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Yes, Your Honours.  I have a partial objection to

25     the admission of the statement.  In paragraph 8 of the statement there

Page 31087

 1     are three documents referenced.  The first of those documents is a

 2     collection of minutes from local board meetings.  That collection of

 3     documents has not been tendered, but the first half of that -- of

 4     paragraph 8 basically consists of the witness's description of those

 5     documents and conclusions about what those documents say.  So if the

 6     documents themselves aren't being tendered, the witness's description and

 7     conclusions in relation to those documents should be redacted, and I know

 8     in addition I would not be able to cross-examine the witness on those

 9     assertions in any event because those documents are not translated.

10             So I would ask for the first half of paragraph 8 to be redacted.

11     Other than that, there's no objection to the statement.

12             In terms of the associated exhibits, I have no objection to them

13     per se.  I note that they are both wrongly described in the statement as

14     minutes of the Novo Sarajevo SDS Municipal Board.  In fact, one -- the

15     first document is minutes of a meeting of the Hrasno Brdo local board,

16     and the second is a report from the Nikola Tesla local board.

17             If the Defence is willing to stipulate that the documents are not

18     what they purport to be in the statement, I have no objection to their

19     admission, although I raise it in the event Your Honours would like the

20     accused to clarify that in direct examination with the witness.  Thank

21     you.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Can we see 1D6297 briefly.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's not the same.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Gustafson said that there's no translation.  I

25     was denied access to the document.

Page 31088

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  What's being shown on the screen is actually not

 2     the translation of the document that's of the 65 ter number that you

 3     asked for.

 4             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Your Honour, I believe that the translation on

 5     the screen is a translation of one of the documents within the 70-page

 6     collection but not the first document, which is why the two documents

 7     don't match.

 8             This is the -- this translation that we see is the document

 9     1D6810, which is being tendered, and uploaded in e-court in terms of

10     translations is only this document, and there are no others.  So this

11     document in the collection is untranslated.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Now I have understood your point with which I agree.

13     So in order for you to tender the statement, including the first half of

14     the -- this paragraph, para 8, you need to lead live with the witness and

15     deal with the 1D6297.

16             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.  We're not planning to do that,

17     Mr. President, so we can redact the first half of that paragraph.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Then we'll admit -- we'll admit the

19     92 ter statement with the redaction of first half of para 8 as well as

20     the other two associated exhibits.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  The statement document 1D06809 receives number

22     D2549, Your Honours.  Document 1D06810 receives number D2550, and

23     document 1D06811 receives number D2551, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Now I'd like to read

Page 31089

 1     out the summary of Mr. Radan's statement in the English language:

 2             [In English] Branko Radan was born in Topljik, Novo Sarajevo

 3     municipality.  He served in the Yugoslav People's Army as an ordinary

 4     soldier in Nis.  Before the war he worked in a number of companies and

 5     when the war started he was working as a representative of Ozrenka of

 6     Gracanica.  He then served as president of the executive authority in

 7     Novo Sarajevo municipality.

 8             After the multi-party elections he noticed the boundaries between

 9     the people of the three nationalities become thicker and deeper.  There

10     were already talks about the arming of Muslims and the formation of units

11     as the Green Berets and Patriotic League.  He saw groups of young men

12     wearing green berets walking around town and shots fired from infantry

13     weapons were heard in the evening.  Unlike the Muslims and Croats,

14     Serbs -- the Serbs were not arming and preparing for war.

15             At the start of the war, Branko Radan was president of the

16     executive authority, Executive Board of Novo Sarajevo municipality.

17     Municipal authorities took the stand that there must not be any

18     discrimination and, in particular, no torture or abuse of the non-Serbian

19     population and security should be guaranteed to all.  There was a group

20     of nine Serbian men who created major problems for Muslims and Croats in

21     the area.  The executive authority, following several meetings, requested

22     and demanded that the nine men be removed from the Grbavica area by the

23     local police organs.  Whatever humanitarian aid arrived in the

24     municipality, it was distributed equally among the different ethnicities

25     in the municipality.

Page 31090

 1             Grbavica was shelled from the Muslim side with increasing

 2     frequency from Velesici, particularly causing many civilian casualties.

 3     Most victims were killed by sniper fire from the Muslim side with

 4     positions in Debelo Brdo and tall civilian buildings across the river.

 5     For protection against that, the inhabitants of Grbavica used to erect

 6     blinds several metres high and made out of blankets in some streets

 7     behind which the pedestrians could move unobserved.  There were no

 8     reprisals against the Muslim civilian population in the municipality.

 9             Due to the difficult material situation of the people, the

10     executive authority made use of the humanitarian aid to organise people's

11     kitchen, public kitchen, where the Serbs', Muslims' and Croats'

12     households obtained food without any problem.

13             And that would be the summary, but I would pose few additional

14     questions.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Mr. Radan, I have a few more questions to put to you in this

17     examination-in-chief.  First of all about the SDS and the municipal

18     organs of Novo Sarajevo:  Who won the first multi-party election in the

19     municipality of Novo Sarajevo?

20        A.   At the first multi-party elections in Novo Sarajevo, SDS won and

21     received most of the votes.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember what the outcome was for the SDA in

23     that parliament?

24        A.   I think that it was in third or fourth place in terms of the

25     number of votes obtained.

Page 31091

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

 2     come closer to the microphone.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   I'm waiting for the interpretation.  I kindly ask you to do the

 5     same.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Radan, could you kindly come closer to the

 7     microphone so that the interpreters could hear you better.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Should I repeat my last answer?

 9     I -- I think that the SDA came third or fourth.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Thank you.  I also kindly ask you to pause before answering my

12     question.  Who was the first president of the Municipal Board of the SDS

13     in Novo Sarajevo, and how did this inter-party life function in this

14     Municipal Board?

15        A.   When things happen for the first time, as they did in the

16     multi-party elections, very often the president of the Municipal Board

17     changed.  The first one was Mr. Savo Lala, then after that, if need be I

18     can tell you, it was Milivoje Savarkapa who was not satisfactory.  The

19     name itself says that it's supposed to be a democratic party, the Serb

20     Democratic Party, but there was no democracy.  There was no respect.  So

21     he was replaced and then Dr. Milivoje --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the last name.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- came to replace him.

24             JUDGE KWON:  The interpreters were not able to hear the last

25     one's name.

Page 31092

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Finally it was Dr. Milivoje Prijic

 2     that was selected as president of the Municipal Board of the SDS.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Thank you.  These changes that took place in the Municipal Board,

 5     did they take place under some influence from the headquarters of the

 6     SDS?

 7        A.   The headquarters of the SDS did not interfere, and did not

 8     exercise any influence in terms of the elections in our municipality.

 9     However, at the proposal of ten boards of the Serb Democratic Party in

10     local communes we asked the leadership headed by President Karadzic to

11     come and attend our session on the 6th of February at the municipality

12     building.  This is the municipality of Novo Sarajevo.  We wished to

13     present our views and our problems, and we wanted to reach a democratic

14     agreement as to who the officeholder will be, who the president of the

15     Municipal Board of the SDS will be.

16        Q.   Can you tell us what the year was?

17        A.   1992, the 6th of February.

18        Q.   At this meeting did I interfere with who it would be, or did I

19     impose what a solution would be to that question?  Did I impose any

20     particular name?

21        A.   You and the other leaders who came with you heard us out at that

22     session, and then in a democratic and conciliatory fashion you

23     recommended that the majority that was in favour of Milivoje Prijic

24     should win and that then Mr. Milivoje Prijic would be the president of

25     the Municipal Board of the SDS; that is to say that you did not interfere

Page 31093

 1     at municipal level in this selection of the president of the Municipal

 2     Board of the SDS.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  In the municipality of Novo Sarajevo, was there a

 4     Crisis Staff, and if so, when was it established?

 5        A.   The Crisis Staff was established after the first barricades

 6     appeared on the 1st of March, 1992, when the conflict escalated, the

 7     conflict among the three sides, or basically between the two sides, the

 8     Serb and the Muslim sides.  After Gardovic, a member of the wedding party

 9     in Bascarsija was killed, barricades were set up, and after these

10     barricades nothing was the same any longer, and it became necessary to

11     organise a Crisis Staff because there was no communication with the seat

12     of the municipality that had been dislocated; that is to say we did not

13     manage to use the resources of the municipal government, and that is why

14     the Crisis Staff was established sometime in mid-March 1992.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Who headed this Crisis Staff?

16        A.   The first and only president of the Crisis Staff of the

17     municipality of Novo Sarajevo was Mr. Radomir Neskovic.

18        Q.   What happened with the regular authorities in the municipality of

19     Novo Sarajevo from April until June?

20        A.   Well, as for this structure that had been elected after the

21     multi-party elections, the president of the Municipal Board was

22     originally Montenegrin.  He went to Montenegro, and it was only the

23     secretary of the municipality, Mr. Mirko Sarovic, who remained in our

24     territory.  We had to elect new authorities, and that happened on the

25     5th of May, 1992, at the recommendation of the Crisis Staff.

Page 31094

 1        Q.   Who was elected?

 2        A.   As I said, at the recommendation of the president and Crisis

 3     Staff, Mr. Danilo Skrba was elected President of the Executive Board.  I

 4     was the vice-president of the Executive Board, and there were four other

 5     persons who were elected as members of the Executive Board, and they were

 6     in charge of different matters.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Until the 5th of May, what was the task of the

 8     Crisis Staff before the selection?

 9        A.   It -- in the turbulent situation in Novo Sarajevo and

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina, the task of the Crisis Staff was to prevent the

11     anarchy that seemed to be in the making.  The population was supposed to

12     be told that they would be protected in a certain way and effort was to

13     be made to prevent any kind of chaos, and I believe that the Crisis Staff

14     considerably succeeded in that regard.

15        Q.   Thank you.  So when were the regular authority organs set up and

16     which ones?

17        A.   I said I already said that on the 5th of May, 1992, the

18     Executive Committee was established and its task was to gradually

19     undertake the work of the Crisis Staff, which I think basically was also

20     the will of the Crisis Staff.  And the Executive Committee did well in

21     assuming those duties so that the Crisis Staff remained operational for

22     only one month, that is to say until the end of May 1992.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Were there any other changes in the government or

24     authorities and the Executive Committee?

25        A.   The first changes took place in July when Mr. Danilo Skrba went

Page 31095

 1     to take a new office and at the Assembly session new candidates were

 2     proposed for the president of the Executive Committee.  I was among the

 3     nominees, and then on the 12th of July at the Assembly session, I was

 4     elected as president of the Executive Committee.  My counter-candidate

 5     was Mr. Radomir Neskovic, and after that we set up an Executive Committee

 6     that became fully operational.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Did anyone from the leadership try to impose a

 8     decision who would be elected president of the Executive Committee?  Did

 9     anyone try to impose any kind of solutions in that respect?

10        A.   At this session we were honoured by the presence of the late

11     Dr. Nikola Koljevic, vice-president of the republic, and

12     Mr. Petko Cancar, the president of the electoral commission, the

13     Commissioner Dragan Djukanovic.  And by being present there, they lent

14     importance to the election of the new municipal leadership.  I did not

15     notice any other interferences or pressures.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us if you encountered any security

17     problems in your municipality as of the date when the conflict broke out?

18        A.   I said that we had been trying the whole time to prevent anarchy.

19     That is a normal phenomenon under such circumstances, so we were no

20     exception.  We tried in every possible way, because we lived mostly in

21     the urban part of the city with all three ethnic communities.  We wanted

22     to protect everybody who remained with us.  We had a huge problem with a

23     group that came from outside, meaning that they were not locals.  We had

24     problems with them because they were maltreating and harassing our

25     citizens of Muslim and Croat ethnicity.  Therefore, we constantly pointed

Page 31096

 1     out to these happenings, and at our regular meetings that took place at

 2     least once a week, the civilian authorities, the police, and the army

 3     underlined, although I was not able to give any tasks to anyone, we made

 4     a joint effort to remove those nine persons who were constantly causing

 5     problems.  And amongst them was Veselin Vlahovic, aka Batko, who was the

 6     worst.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  These nine persons, did they enjoy any support from

 8     the authorities?

 9        A.   I already said that we could not support these individuals in any

10     way whatsoever, quite the opposite.  We did our best to remove them from

11     our territory and prevent them from causing problems, and I think that we

12     managed to do that step-by-step, to remove them from our territory.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Were they alone or did they have their groups that

14     were gathering around them?

15        A.   Well, those were groups.  Such people easily find followers.

16     There was some kind of vested interest that they had.  Whether that was

17     material gain or something else, I don't know, but I don't think that

18     they were doing it for the interest of nationality.

19        Q.   At what time of day did they engage in commission of such acts?

20        A.   Well, due to the situation that prevailed at the time, a curfew

21     was imposed banning anyone from moving during the night with the

22     exception of police and military police.  The civilians were prohibited

23     from moving around, and that was usually the time when they broke the law

24     and this regulation.  So they were active during the night when no one

25     was able to prevent them from doing so except the victims themselves.

Page 31097

 1        Q.   Did you personally have any problems with these groups?

 2        A.   Well, you see, I did have problems.  After my idea and my

 3     intention became known to engage the police and the army to help us

 4     remove them from our municipality, shortly after that in front of the

 5     municipal building my car was riddled with bullets.  Somebody shot at it

 6     in broad daylight, in plain view of the passers-by.  After that, the

 7     military police arrived, arrested the offender, took him to the prison at

 8     Kula, but only a few days after that he was released.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  You said that they gradually disappeared from the

10     area.  Were they interconnected or were they acting independently?  Did

11     they disappear group by group?

12        A.   Well, they acted independently.  Batko was not connected to

13     anyone, not the army or anyone else.  He was a freelancer.  The one who

14     shot at my car and another one who killed a soldier, father of three,

15     without any reason whatsoever, I'm talking about Mr. Zoran Lackovic, was

16     incarcerated at Kula.  But upon his release somebody took revenge on him,

17     whether it was the soldiers or companions of Zoran Lackovic, but they

18     avenged the death of their colleague, and the perpetrator was killed.

19        Q.   Thank you.  How long did you stay in the post of the president of

20     the Executive Committee?

21        A.   Until the 12th of March, 1993.

22        Q.   Who succeeded you?

23        A.   I was succeeded by Captain Budimir Obradovic, the deceased

24     Budimir Obradovic.

25        Q.   What happened to him?

Page 31098

 1        A.   Budimir Obradovic wanted to introduce even a higher degree of

 2     discipline in our municipality.  Since those who did not want discipline

 3     and order resented this, in his office in the municipal building,

 4     Mr. Budo Obradovic was assassinated.

 5        Q.   Were you and Mr. Obradovic as executive branch, did you enjoy

 6     support among the municipal organs to impose law and order?

 7        A.   Yes, we did have support, because regular reports were being

 8     received from the ground either from the military organs or through

 9     municipal channels.  So we had communication, and we enjoyed full support

10     of our intentions and our actions on the ground.

11        Q.   Thank you.  In September 1992, was there a significant relocation

12     of the population in Novo Sarajevo municipality, and if so, can you

13     please tell us?

14        A.   Yes.  On the 30th of September, 1992, in the early morning hours

15     there are some estimates that about 300 Muslim citizens crossed over the

16     bridge on the Vrbanja and went to the territory of the federation -- or,

17     rather, under the control of their forces.  Since I wasn't personally

18     present there but I nevertheless reacted immediately by talking to the

19     police and inquired about this incident, I was told that that happened

20     with the inhabitants who were living on the front line in

21     Jevrejsko Groblje, Gornja Kovacici and Donji Kovacici, and on a daily

22     basis there was shooting, fighting, shelling in that area.  The Serbian

23     forces were holding defence positions.  They had moved their families

24     further back in order to provide safety, but the Muslims stayed in their

25     houses and they were behind the VRS.  In order for them to be safer, I

Page 31099

 1     don't know who agreed on that or whether they organised themselves, they

 2     decided to cross over to the other side.

 3             As far as I know, no pressure was exerted.  Nothing was done

 4     under coercion, and people moved across.  So I think that it was an

 5     organised move and that it was a satisfactory move, and I have proof in

 6     the incident that took place on the 15th of November when 15 buses of

 7     Serbs crossed across -- passed across our territory and went to Belgrade.

 8     So there was some kind of goodwill there, and there was a response from

 9     our side.

10        Q.   Thank you.  The Muslim civilians living along the confrontation

11     line, did they have any other alternative to be safe?  What could they

12     have done?

13        A.   Well, they could have withdrawn, but believe me, Grbavica was

14     fully packed with refugees.  All the vacant premises were filled by

15     people, flats and all other residential areas.  So there was very little

16     possibility to provide shelter elsewhere for those people living on the

17     front line.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Did any Muslims remain at Grbavica, those who weren't

19     living along the confrontation line?

20        A.   Yes.  According to some estimates, between 3 -- 1.350 and 1.500

21     inhabitants remained, and they enjoyed all the same rights in terms of

22     humanitarian aid, medical assistance and security.  We tried to provide

23     identical conditions for them as the ones accorded to the Serbs and

24     Croats.  So as I said, between 1.350 and 1.500 of them remained.

25        Q.   Did they stay there until the end of the war?

Page 31100

 1        A.   Yes, until reintegration took place.

 2        Q.   You said that they were treated in an equal manner.  How were

 3     they treated with in terms of acquired rights; for example, the rights to

 4     a pension?

 5        A.   As far as that is concerned, following my election in

 6     June of 1992 as the president of the Executive Committee, I immediately

 7     launched an initiative to gather reliable information about the rights

 8     acquired prior to the war.  So anyone who was able to prove that they

 9     were entitled to a pension, whether they were Muslims, Serbs, or Croats,

10     could provide such certificates and they were eligible to receive

11     pension.  So there was no discrimination against anyone in that respect.

12     That also applied to medical services, distribution of humanitarian aid,

13     soup kitchens.  Just like everybody else, they were entitled to receive

14     aid.

15        Q.   Thank you.  What would happen if a retired person did not submit

16     the necessary documents in time?

17        A.   All those who failed to provide proper documents and information

18     in time regarding their rights to pension could enjoy this, and they

19     would receive back pay for the period that they were delayed, and they

20     were on equal footing as the others who applied in time.

21        Q.   Did humanitarian aid cross the territory of your municipality,

22     the one directed to the Muslim part?

23        A.   Well, that was one of the way to cross it, because the road on

24     Trebevic was closed.  Humanitarian aid was delivered on a regular basis

25     and in the quantities required, and there were no disturbances in that

Page 31101

 1     manner.  In May there was a humanitarian aid convoy of some eight tractor

 2     trailers, and the esteemed cardinal Veljko Peulic [as interpreted] was in

 3     the delegation escorting these convoys, and they crossed over to the

 4     other territory without any problems.  So there was other convoys

 5     escorted by Colonel Zarkovic, who was our liaison officer with UNPROFOR,

 6     and they ensured that they would reach their destination securely.

 7        Q.   I think you said cardinal Vinko Peulic.

 8        A.   Yes.  He was a member of the delegation.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Did at any point the humanitarian aid delivery became

10     obstructed?

11        A.   Well, that became most prominent before some major holidays.

12     Everyone who had anyone in Sarajevo wanted to send some stuff that would

13     help people to celebrate their holidays, and this usually happened in

14     November, December, and January, and I'm talking about the end of 1992

15     and beginning of 1993 when the humanitarian aid reached Lukavica, but the

16     Muslim forces did not give them permission to pass through Sarajevo.

17     After several pleas, we had to unload this stuff in the warehouse of

18     Energoinvest, and when the permission was granted, it was sent to

19     Sarajevo.  However, this permission was never given, and it stayed there

20     until January for three months and it went off, most of it.

21        Q.   Was there any attempt on the part of the population of Grbavica,

22     non-Serb population and Muslims, to cross to the other side?

23        A.   Yes.  They thought that they could reunite with their families

24     and have better living conditions, but there were no expulsions carried

25     out by us.  All of this was done by so-called freelancers who wanted to

Page 31102

 1     help both sides and help people to get across to the other territory.

 2        Q.   I'm not sure that the term "slobadni strelci" can be translated

 3     as "freelance" person.  What do you mean when you say that?

 4        A.   Usually such people had ham radio stations, usually taxi drivers

 5     who could communicate with the other side, who could establish contact,

 6     and then they made agreements to have one-for-one exchanges or to try and

 7     entertain the requests of one or the other side.  It was not done in an

 8     organised fashion.  That is why I called those people freelance.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I have no further

10     questions at this point, your Excellencies.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

12             Mr. Radan, as you have noted, most of your evidence was admitted

13     in writing, i.e., your statement in lieu of your oral testimony.  Now you

14     will be cross-examined by the representative of the

15     Office of the Prosecutor, Ms. Gustafson.

16             Please continue.

17             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honours, and just to alert the

18     Chamber, I will do my best to move as efficiently as I can.  I estimated

19     an hour for this witness.  I've been given 45 minutes, but since my

20     estimate, I -- there has been substantial new information elicited by the

21     accused, and had I known that, my estimate would have been longer.  Like

22     I said, I will do my best, but I alert the Chamber now I may need to ask

23     for some additional time.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Duly noted.  Please proceed.

25                           Cross-examination by Ms. Gustafson:

Page 31103

 1        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Radan.  Just to get the chronology of your

 2     positions clear, you became president of the Novo Sarajevo

 3     Executive Board in July 1992.  Prior to that I understand you were the

 4     vice-president of the Executive Board, and you became vice-president in

 5     May 1992; is that right?

 6        A.   Yes, on the 5th of May 1992.

 7        Q.   And prior to that appointment in May of 1992, is it correct that

 8     you had no official position in the municipality?

 9        A.   You are correct.  I didn't.

10        Q.   Okay.  And Dr. Milivoje Prijic, he was the president of

11     Novo Sarajevo municipality during the same period of time that you were

12     president of the Executive Board; is that right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Okay.  At paragraph 7 of your statement, you said that:

15             "Unlike the Muslims and Croats, the Serbs were not preparing for

16     war because they were convinced that they will remain in the federal

17     state of Yugoslavia, where for them peace was guaranteed."

18             By the term "preparing for war," were you referring to activities

19     such as arming or preparing armed units for their engagement?

20        A.   Yes.  Preparing armed units for conflict.  Much earlier than

21     anyone else, the Muslims organised themselves in the Patriotic League and

22     the Green Berets, whereas the Serb side was doing nothing in that respect

23     at the time.

24        Q.   Okay --

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If Mr. Radan does not have a hard

Page 31104

 1     copy of his statement before him, perhaps it may be of assistance if I

 2     provided him with one, and Ms. Gustafson can carry on more efficiently.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have your statement with you, Mr. Radan?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  No.  I was told that the rules

 5     would not allow that.

 6             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 7        Q.   Mr. Radan, just in relation to your last answer, the Chamber has

 8     received evidence that at a meeting in December 1991, Mr. Karadzic

 9     distributed secret instructions for the organisation and operation of the

10     organs of the Serbian people in emergency conditions to municipal SDS

11     officials, and I refer to the evidence P5 and P2568 at transcript

12     page 16656.

13             And the stated purpose for issuing those instructions was the

14     suspicion that Bosnia would be taken out of Yugoslavia, and that's page 1

15     of P5.

16             Now, you said that the Serbs were convinced that they would

17     remain in Yugoslavia, and that is why they weren't preparing for war.

18     Were you aware at the time that the SDS leadership issued these

19     instructions in December of 1991 to municipal SDS authorities?

20        A.   Let me tell you this:  I became a member of the Municipal Board

21     or the local commune board in the Vraca local commune in December 1991.

22     Up until that time, I received all information from the media.  In other

23     words, I was not active in the work of the party, and I was not able to

24     get by these -- this information that you referred to.  Everything I

25     learned was learned through following Assembly sessions, public addresses

Page 31105

 1     and communiques from both -- from all sides.  At the time, I interpreted

 2     such information in my own way.  I was in no position to hear about these

 3     instructions issued by Mr. Karadzic provided to the local boards.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have a reference?  Where

 5     does it say that I had them distributed?

 6             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I provided that reference.  It was P2568 at

 7     transcript page 16656.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It don't say that I distributed it

 9     by hand.

10             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If it doesn't, then I apologise.  If it was

11     distributed at a meeting chaired by Mr. Karadzic.

12        Q.   Now, you --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Let's proceed.

14             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you.

15        Q.   Mr. Radan, you stated earlier in your evidence that the

16     Novo Sarajevo Crisis Staff was formed in mid-March 1992.  Were you -- I

17     take it, then, you were unaware that there was an earlier Crisis Staff

18     formed in your municipality pursuant to these December 1991 instructions,

19     and I refer there to P2575.

20        A.   I wasn't familiar with that.  I know what happened after the

21     barricades in March because I heard about it at the time.  I knew there

22     was the president of the Crisis Staff who was Mr. Neskovic, and I wasn't

23     aware of who the other members are.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise to Ms. Gustafson.  In

25     the last line, it says indeed what she claims to have said, but it was

Page 31106

 1     put that way by a witness.  The last line reads that the witness indeed

 2     said that I had it distributed.

 3             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I thank the accused for that correction.

 4        Q.   Mr. Radan, so if you were unaware of the creation of this

 5     Crisis Staff, I take it you were also not aware that at the meeting in

 6     December 1991 where that Crisis Staff -- Novo Sarajevo Crisis Staff staff

 7     was established, that Drago Kovac, Milenko Jovanovic, and Momir Garic,

 8     representatives of civilian protection, the MUP and the TO were tasked

 9     with item 9 of those instructions which was an instruction to prepare an

10     estimate of the number of necessary active and reserve policemen, TO

11     units, and civilian protection units.  And on that basis bring them up to

12     full manpower levels and take any other necessary action for their

13     engagement in keeping with the developments.  An order to activate these

14     units shall be issued by the Crisis Staff in the municipality.

15             I take it you were not aware that those three individuals were

16     given that task.

17        A.   I knew all three of them.  As for their specific duties, I wasn't

18     aware of that nor do I know what the results were of the things they were

19     supposed to undertake.  In the territory of our part of the municipality

20     where I resided, I did not feel the effects of those developments.  We

21     were not preparing ourselves, as I have said before.  At least I had no

22     part in any such thing.

23        Q.   Okay.  You may not have had a part in any such thing, but you

24     agree, do you not, that bringing police, TO, and civilian protection

25     units up to full manpower levels and taking any other necessary action

Page 31107

 1     for their engagement is a preparation for war, is it not?

 2        A.   In the overall situation, the Serb people did not prepare

 3     themselves for war but for defence in order to remain part of Yugoslavia

 4     and to defend themselves by pre-empting any possible developments similar

 5     to those from World War II.  They were acting based on their experience.

 6     If you want to invoke the meeting and instructions from 1991 and the

 7     three people in question and their tasks, perhaps I could say that I

 8     would have taken part if someone had offered it to me.

 9             I saw through my own experience what the members of the

10     Patriotic League and the Green Berets were doing around Sarajevo.  Out of

11     prevention and out of fear, I would have definitely joined the defence

12     efforts in order to defend what was ours.

13        Q.   Okay.  The Chamber also heard evidence from Mr. Garic who

14     testified for the Defence that Mr. Garic was in contact with

15     Colonel Gagovic, the assistant commander for logistics of the JNA

16     4th Corps, to obtain weapons.  Do you know anything about Mr. Garic's

17     efforts to obtain weapons from the JNA in your municipality?

18        A.   First of all, I don't know which period this statement by

19     Mr. Garic refers to.  I did not take part in it.  I do know Mr. Garic,

20     but as of the beginning of the conflict, I don't know what he had been

21     doing before that, and I told you that I was unaware and unfamiliar with

22     the tasks he and the two other men were apparently assigned.

23        Q.   Okay.  That's clear.  Thank you.  I'd like to move on now to talk

24     about the Serbian nine men that you refer to in your statement who were

25     causing problems by mistreating Croats and Serbs [sic] in the

Page 31108

 1     municipality.  You refer to this at paragraph 13 of your statement.

 2             You said that you knew these nine men by name, but you had only

 3     mentioned Batko or Veselin Vlahovic in your evidence.  Can you name the

 4     other nine men you're referring to?

 5        A.   During that time I only knew of this nickname Batko.  As for the

 6     other eight, Zorka Cepter, this and that, they had all sorts of

 7     nicknames, but I never obtained their particulars.  When I mentioned the

 8     meeting with the police and military in order to have something done

 9     about it, I mentioned only their nicknames, and yet everyone knew who

10     they were.  Neither then nor now I know -- do I know their first and last

11     names, because they do not hail from our municipality.

12        Q.   So the police and the army knew more about these men than you; is

13     that right?

14        A.   I suppose as much.  Whenever there was an Assembly session,

15     someone from the police reported on their activities, what they did,

16     where -- what proceedings they instituted, et cetera, and they always

17     kept going back to the topic of security.  In the reports they would

18     submit figures.  This is how many people we have criminally prosecuted,

19     et cetera.  However, the figures came without the names.  I suppose they

20     had appropriate information and they had more of it because it was their

21     job to know.

22        Q.   Okay.  You said this was a problem -- this problem with the

23     Serbian nine men.  I understand you said this was a problem from the

24     start of the war.  When did you first become aware of this -- the crimes

25     committed by this group?

Page 31109

 1        A.   It wasn't continuous but sporadic, whenever someone had the

 2     chance to do something.  Such things did not reach me directly as the

 3     President of the Executive Board.  I suppose that citizens reported

 4     incidents to the police and the police had such information.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to ask you to listen carefully to my

 6     questions and try to answer them as precisely as possible.

 7             The question was simply when you first became aware, by whatever

 8     means, of Batko's crimes and these nine men.

 9        A.   Yes, I understand the question.  I heard about his acts in

10     July 1992 at a funeral.  A cousin of mine who had been a fighter was

11     buried on that occasion, Zoran Vitkovic.  Batko came there, among others,

12     and boasted his activities.  It was along the lines of ridicule.  So that

13     was in early July 1992.  That's when the funeral was and that's when I

14     heard of Batko for the first time.  I did not know him before that.  He

15     was not part of any unit.  He was not at the front lines.  He was just

16     being a maverick.

17        Q.   But he wore a military uniform; right?

18        A.   Even those who were not in the army wore uniforms so as not to be

19     drafted.  It was calling cards to -- to try and be seen as someone who

20     was already engaged in the military, but it was no guarantee of anything.

21        Q.   So I take it you -- your answer's affirmative, that Batko wore a

22     uniform.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Okay.  You first heard about his acts in July 1992, and then you

25     said earlier today that you constantly pointed out these happenings at

Page 31110

 1     weekly meetings with the police and the army.  So you began pointing out

 2     the crimes of this group sometime after you became aware of them in July

 3     at these weekly meetings; is that right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And you also said earlier today that at one point Batko was

 6     arrested after he shot at you in your car.  When was that?

 7        A.   I didn't say Batko fired on that occasion.  It was Zoran, aka

 8     Zoka.  It wasn't Batko who fired at my car.  It was Zoran, also known as

 9     Zoka.  He shot at my car.  Never in my statement did I say it was done by

10     Batko.

11        Q.   Okay.  But Zoka was one of these nine men you refer to; is that

12     right?

13        A.   Yes.  Yes.

14        Q.   And when did that happen?  When was your car shot at by Zoka?

15        A.   Just following the period where these appeals were being made to

16     have them removed from the municipality, which was some time in September

17     in 1992.

18        Q.   So in September of 1992, these nine men were still committing

19     crimes in the municipality; is that right?

20        A.   By that time there were fewer of them, because one or two of them

21     were no longer in our municipality.  So we went down from the number of

22     nine.  In stages there were fewer and fewer.

23        Q.   Was Batko still committing crimes in Novo Sarajevo in

24     September of 1992?

25        A.   I think by virtue of his presence alone, well, it's a particular

Page 31111

 1     kind of personality who couldn't do without terrorising and mistreating

 2     others.  I suppose, well, because it was not within my remit to go about

 3     following him, I forwarded information to the police presuming that they

 4     would do their job, and I suppose they did.

 5        Q.   Okay.  So Batko was still present in the municipality in

 6     September 1992; is that right?

 7        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 8        Q.   Okay.  And you said that after your car was shot at, that Zoka

 9     was taken to Kula and then released after a few days.  Do you know who

10     released Zoka from Kula?

11        A.   Believe me when I say I don't.  An authorised official must have

12     released him, but I don't know who.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness be asked

14     to either approach the microphones or speak up.

15             MS. GUSTAFSON:

16        Q.   You've been asked to move closer to the microphone so that the

17     interpreters can hear you.

18        A.   I was facing you, that's why.  Thank you.  Do I need to repeat?

19        Q.   No.  I think -- I think your answer was heard.

20             So -- but Kula was a regular prison, and it was run by the

21     Ministry of Justice under Momcilo Mandic; right?

22        A.   Yes, at the time.

23        Q.   Okay.  So earlier when you said that the nine men didn't have any

24     support from the authorities, one of these men obviously had some -- some

25     support from the authorities, in particular some authorised person, as

Page 31112

 1     you put it, who released him from Kula; right?

 2        A.   I suppose that the legal formalities were done.  They were

 3     interviewed, et cetera, in order to establish what they had done.  Now,

 4     what the police actually did I'd rather not go into.  It's matter for the

 5     judiciary and the police.

 6        Q.   Okay.  The Chamber has received evidence that the Novo Sarajevo

 7     police were well aware of Batko's crimes in May of 1992, and that's

 8     P6017.  Do you have any reason to dispute that information?

 9        A.   No.  By nature, I am a legalist.  I abide by the law, and I

10     believe there were other people who were more competent to deal with it.

11     I did not assign myself any right to judge their work.  I was not neither

12     present nor competent to assess that.  I suppose they worked diligently

13     and in the best manner they knew how.

14        Q.   Okay.  You suppose they worked diligently.  The MUP special

15     forces were based in Novo Sarajevo, in Vraca; right?

16        A.   Yes, in the police school, the police academy.

17        Q.   And there was a significant army presence in your municipality,

18     including the SRK corps command at Lukavica, a battalion command in

19     Grbavica, and troops stationed throughout your municipality; right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Now, given this substantial police and army presence and

22     accepting that the police were aware of Batko's group committing crimes

23     beginning in May of 1992, and your evidence that Batko was still in the

24     municipality in September of 1992, it's clear, is it not, that the police

25     and the army could have stopped Batko's crimes long before his eventual

Page 31113

 1     removal from the municipality, isn't it?

 2        A.   I agree something could have been done earlier.

 3        Q.   And the reason nothing was done earlier about Batko was because

 4     Batko was being protected by the Bosnian Serb leadership; right?

 5        A.   I cannot confirm that.  I was part of that leadership, and I

 6     expressed my opinion, and I stand by it.  One cannot make such

 7     brushstroke remarks and say that the Serb leadership was protecting

 8     Batko.

 9        Q.   All right.  I'd like to turn now to 65 ter 18857A, please.  We're

10     about to look at an extract from a book written by Biljana Plavsic.

11     You're familiar with Mrs. Plavsic; right?  She was a member of the

12     Presidency at the time.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And, in fact, up until the beginning of the war she lived in

15     November Sarajevo, in Grbavica; is that right?

16        A.   Yes.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not understand the rest of

18     the answer.

19             MS. GUSTAFSON:

20        Q.   Could you just repeat your last answer for the interpreters,

21     Mr. Radan.

22        A.   Yes.  Mrs. Biljana Plavsic lived in Grbavica in a neighbourhood

23     called Soping.

24        Q.   Okay.  And if we could go to the next page in the English and

25     page 3 in the B/C/S, please.

Page 31114

 1             Mr. Radan, I'd like to direct your attention to the bottom

 2     right-hand corner of the document in B/C/S.  It's the second paragraph

 3     that starts just about halfway down the page where Mrs. Plavsic describes

 4     how she had a meeting with the UN High Representative for Refugees in

 5     Lukavica in July 1992.  And this is at the top of the English.

 6             And she describes how she is stopped at the intersection for the

 7     roads Trebevic, Grbavica, and Lukavica.  About halfway down that passage,

 8     in fact, right at the bottom of the screen in the B/C/S, she says:

 9             "A group of people waved at me and I got out of the car.  They

10     got to the point immediately."

11             If we could go to the next page in the B/C/S:

12             "I expected them to request something for themselves, but they

13     had another issue.  They were talking about the events at Grbavica, and

14     they were Serbs.  According to them, it was dangerous for the non-Serbs

15     to live in that part of the city.  They told me that certain Batko and

16     several people of his kind were forcibly entering the Croatian and Muslim

17     apartments at night and taking the men away.  Some of these men have not

18     been seen after this event.  They were looting and blackmailing the

19     people.  The Serbs who opposed this became a target of this maniac and

20     his group."

21             Now, that's more or less an accurate description of what Batko

22     was up to at the time in Grbavica; is that right?

23        A.   Well, you see, I would just like to ask -- well, I know roughly

24     when the book was published and I know who the author of the book is, and

25     I know for what purpose it was written.  Nothing is in dispute there.

Page 31115

 1     This that is written here, that's something I've often said myself.  But

 2     for these allegations to be made by Ms. Biljana Plavsic after so many

 3     years, she was in our territory most of the time, and I don't know what

 4     she did in order to help us to eradicate this evil that did exist in

 5     Grbavica.

 6        Q.   Well, I'd like to now direct your attention to a further extract

 7     beginning approximately nine lines down from where we just finished

 8     reading, and this is at the bottom of the English where she says:

 9             "If half of what the people at the crossroad told me is true,

10     then this is horrible.  In that case, then the local authorities have

11     failed."

12             And then she describes how she went to the municipality building

13     and she said:

14             "The president of the municipality was not there but it did not

15     matter because the other quickly gathered.  I told them why I had come

16     and asked them whether it was possible that such evil-doings were being

17     tolerated.  They were silent."

18             And if we go to the next page in the English, a few lines down

19     she says:

20             "I asked him who Batko was.  At the mention of that name, they

21     even got scared.  I came to a conclusion that those men were completely

22     unable to cope with the situation and they were the ones representing the

23     authorities.  I got the feeling that those people had earlier been some

24     small potatoes in the local communities, and I was not wrong.  I asked

25     them who their municipal president was."

Page 31116

 1             Sorry, if we could now go to the next half of the page in B/C/S.

 2     Thank you:

 3             "They mentioned his name.  He is a doctor trading in medicines

 4     and representing a company.  He is a Montenegrin.  I did not achieve

 5     anything there at the municipality building, but the fact that a member

 6     of the Presidency was informed about the events which they were obviously

 7     trying to hide must have had some effect.  I would immediately inform the

 8     Presidency and ask that someone should take responsibility, and that was

 9     exactly what I did."

10             Mr. Radan, were you present at this meeting with Mrs. Plavsic

11     when she came to the municipal building?

12        A.   No, I was not present.

13        Q.   And when she describes the president of the municipality as being

14     a Montenegrin doctor trading in medicines, that's a description of

15     Dr. Prijic who is municipal president at the time; right?

16        A.   Yes.  He was born in Montenegro, but he lived and worked in

17     Sarajevo.  He was the director of the Galenika representative office in

18     Novo Sarajevo.

19        Q.   [Microphone not activated] Okay.  And if we could go to --

20             JUDGE KWON:  Microphone, please.

21             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22        Q.   And if we could go to the last extract from this which is on the

23     next page in the English, and it's on page 5 of the B/C/S.  And it's on

24     the left-hand side of the B/C/S page, beginning in the first full

25     paragraph, about four lines down where she says after her meeting with

Page 31117

 1     Ogata in Lukavica she dashed off at great speed to Pale to attempt to

 2     prevent the activity of the mad Batko.  She says:

 3             "I entered one of the rooms in Kikinda where I find all the

 4     relevant persons for solving this problem.  Radovan is there; Momo,

 5     Momcilo Mandic, justice minister; Mico Stanisic, police minister.  I

 6     didn't even mention to them the conversation I had had with Ogata but

 7     straight away moved to the events at Grbavica.  I expect wonder, worry,

 8     astonishment but there is none of it.  Momcilo Mandic smirked, that is

 9     the proper term for his face at the moment, and said, 'Oh, Batko,' so to

10     the interior minister as if we were talking about some playful child and

11     his games.  Therefore they are familiar with the men and his activities.

12     They know him very well and they do not hide it.  So these are his

13     protecters and the ones giving him orders, as Zoran Vitkovic mentioned.

14     I told them that I thought they were unfamiliar with such occurrences and

15     with that person and so had intended to have them issue a warrant to

16     arrest him," and then there's a quote, "'but now I see you are familiar

17     with everything and I now ask the Presidency that the two of you be

18     arrested.'  I addressed Karadzic as the president of the Presidency and

19     sought that these two ministers be arrested or that they resign

20     immediately."

21             And then she describes how she's been harassed by Momcilo Mandic

22     since then, and a few lines down she says:

23             "Radovan's reply to my request for the resignation of these

24     ministers reiterated a number of times was always, 'You are asking me to

25     cut off my right arm.'"

Page 31118

 1             Now, that explain why Batko and his group were able to operate

 2     with impunity for so many months in Grbavica despite the significant

 3     police and army presence in the municipality, doesn't it, Mr. Radan?

 4        A.   Well, you see, this is how I would answer:  This book was written

 5     by Mr. Rajko Vasic.  I don't know what he wrote before that.  This

 6     information and these references to Zoran Vitkovic's statements, a young

 7     man who was killed in July 1992, and I spoke about that funeral when I

 8     first heard of these wrong-doings.  That was the funeral of

 9     Zoran Vitkovic.

10             This same Zoran Vitkovic at the request of Biljana Plavsic, with

11     eight or nine of his men, when the fiercest fighting was taking place in

12     Grbavica, upon instructions from Mrs. Biljana Plavsic, from the 9th or

13     10th floor of a building, he carried Biljana Plavsic's 85-year-old mother

14     downstairs.  So I don't know how relevant these statements are in view of

15     this time distance, and with all due respect to the late Zoran Vitkovic,

16     this relevant information taking into account what he said and not taking

17     into account what somebody from the municipality says, an elected

18     official.  So she took another route.  She took the wrong route.  She

19     didn't do things right.

20             As for all of this that she says about this meeting in Kikinda, I

21     was not present, so I cannot say anything about that.  So this speaks of

22     Biljana and her testimony and what she spoke of afterwards and everything

23     else.

24        Q.   You say you don't know how relevant these statements are in view

25     of this time distance.  This book was written in 2005, admittedly some

Page 31119

 1     years these events, but you're testifying about these events in 2012.  So

 2     if we're to accept your words in 2012 about what happened, there's no

 3     reason we can't accept Ms. Plavsic's words in 2005; right?

 4        A.   This book had a completely different purpose, completely

 5     different.  The writing of Ratko Vasic had a completely different

 6     purpose.  I am just testifying to you about situations when I was

 7     present.

 8             Now, if this book was written in 2005, the late Zoran Vitkovic

 9     was killed in the war in Kotorac in 1992, and now all of a sudden to

10     refer to statements made by the late Zoran Vitkovic and not to take into

11     account statements of persons who were relevant and alive in that period,

12     I don't know what purpose that can serve.

13             As for all the situations when I was present, when I could do

14     something, I did do something.

15             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I'd like to tender that extract, please.

16             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  He hasn't confirmed anything

17     about the last portion of the extract involving the meeting with

18     Dr. Karadzic, nor could he have been expected to.  So to that extent, I

19     think it's -- that portion of it's inadmissible beside the fact that it's

20     a third party's statement many years after the event.

21             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Well, Your Honours, of course there's no bar to

22     hearsay at this Tribunal and there is certainly no bar to having extracts

23     of books submitted.  It's happened in this trial in the past, and I point

24     in particular to Mr. Karadzic's tendering extracts of Lord Owen's book

25     through Prosecution witnesses.  And in any event, whether or not the

Page 31120

 1     witness has confirmed this is not relevant.  He stated that Batko wasn't

 2     protected or connected to anyone, and this is direct impeachment of that.

 3             Apart from that, much of what is in this --

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's not what I stated.  I'm

 5     sorry.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  We are having a debate among the

 7     parties.  Please --

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And in any event, much of what the -- much of

 9     what is in this extract has in fact been confirmed by the testimony of

10     the witness.  So the -- the extract certainly meets the standards for

11     reliability and probative value under Rule 89.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Probably you were not with us yesterday, but I

13     reiterated the Chamber's prior practice with respect to third-party

14     statements in which you usually admit the third-party statement when it

15     is to be confirmed by the witness or commented upon.  So what would be

16     the reason for you to tender or to admit this part of Mrs. Plavsic's

17     book?

18             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Impeachment, Your Honours, and I don't think

19     there's --

20             JUDGE KWON:  What point of testimony is this going to impeach?

21     What part of Mr. Radan's testimony?

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Mr. Radan denied that Batko was being protected

23     by the leadership.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Which includes himself.

25             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Yes.

Page 31121

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber will consider this issue together with

 3     Tintor's interview and give its ruling on Tuesday together.

 4             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you.

 5        Q.   Now, Mr. Radan, you referred in your earlier evidence to the fact

 6     that the situation with crime improved over time.  It is the case,

 7     though, is it not that many months after the events that you talked about

 8     with Batko, in particular in November of 1992, there was still a problem

 9     of massive crime being committed on a massive scale in Novo Sarajevo, in

10     particular by members of the military; right?

11        A.   I don't know what you are referring to exactly.

12        Q.   Well, you were there.  Was there --

13        A.   Which massive crimes?

14        Q.   Well, in particular, mistreatment of the non-Serb population,

15     harassment, rape, physical mistreatment, and robbery.

16        A.   I don't know about that.  Had I known about that, I would have

17     reported it to the police.  As I said in the previous case, I was in a

18     position to ensure conditions, living conditions, that were sort of

19     adequate, but there was the civilian police, there was the military

20     police that was supposed to do their job.  I tried to protect people in

21     my own neighbourhood as much as I could when I knew about things.

22        Q.   I'm sorry to cut you off.  My time is very limited.  You did

23     answer my question.  You said, "I don't know about that."

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Could we have P5065, please.

25        Q.   This is a document that's in fact referenced in your statement in

Page 31122

 1     support of your claim about the number of people killed by sniper fire

 2     from the Muslim side.  It's the minutes of a 15 November 1992 meeting

 3     between SRK commanders and municipality presidents and attended by

 4     General Mladic as well.  And if we could go to page 2 in the English,

 5     staying on page 1 in the B/C/S.  You can see that your name is listed

 6     as -- you're listed as being present under number 23.  You were present

 7     at this meeting; right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Okay.  If we could go to page 4 of the English and page 3 of the

10     B/C/S.  This is part of the introduction by General Galic.

11             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could have page 3 in the B/C/S.  Sorry,

12     page 4.

13        Q.   And there are a number of points about halfway down the page

14     under the heading "Flaws," and about halfway down he lists "genocide on

15     other nations" as one of the flaws.

16             If we could now go to page 9 of the English and page 7 of the

17     B/C/S.  This is now Colonel Lugonja speaking, who was the chief of

18     security in the SRK command, and at the top of the English and about half

19     way down in the B/C/S, he says:

20             "Extremely widespread theft, robbery, violence and other crimes.

21     Everything has been stolen," et cetera.

22             And then under the next point, he says:

23             "The understanding and practice of individuals and groups that

24     they are masters of life and death to every individual of different

25     ethnicity resulting in cases of unnecessary mistreatment and killing of

Page 31123

 1     members of other ethnicities, especially Muslims.  Such people see the

 2     Geneva and other conventions as obsolete and unnecessary in this war.

 3             If we could go to the bottom of the page in English and the next

 4     page in the B/C/S.  And this is still Colonel Lugonja speaking.  And he

 5     refers, under the fourth point in B/C/S, near the bottom of the English,

 6     he refers to widespread theft, robbery, and all forms of violent

 7     behaviour, intensive war profiteering.  And under the next point, nearly

 8     total financial and legal insecurity particularly in specific areas

 9     Grbavica, et cetera.  Widespread belief that the war provides an

10     opportunity to profit as much as possible.

11             And if we could go to page 12 of the English and page 9 of the

12     B/C/S.  This is Dr. Prijic speaking, the president of Novo Sarajevo

13     municipality.  And this is near the bottom in the B/C/S, near the top in

14     the English.  Sorry, near the middle in the English.  And he says that

15     there are some problems involving robberies and shootings by various

16     soldiers.  The army's assistance and intervention in the prevention of

17     problematic actions would be of great benefit.  And in the next paragraph

18     he says the soldiers' morale in Novo Sarajevo So is falling.  A great

19     portions of soldiers is exercising unruly behaviour.  Mass removals of

20     property from the municipality, rape, expulsions from flats are going

21     unpunished affecting morale.  And then he says the military police are

22     consolidated but still not strong enough.

23             You were there when Dr. Prijic reported this to the SRK command

24     and that soldiers were committing mass crime in municipality, and that

25     was the reality at the time, wasn't it?

Page 31124

 1        A.   Well, it wasn't massive.  In order to make things as serious as

 2     possible because it was such a eminent gathering, the late

 3     President Prijic put things in very serious terms, more serious than was

 4     actually the case, but it is true that such things did exist.  That's why

 5     we took all the measures that we did.  However, he presented this before

 6     the top echelons of the military.  He presented this problem which was

 7     evident.

 8        Q.   Well, it's also clear from General Galic's reference to the flaw

 9     of the genocide on other nations and to Colonel Lugonja's reference to

10     extremely widespread theft, robbery, violence, and other crimes, and the

11     reference to the understanding and practice of individuals and groups

12     that they are masters of life and death to every individual of different

13     ethnicity, that there was indeed a significant level of crime against

14     non-Serbs at the time; right?

15        A.   Well, all of that we did point out.  We said that all of this was

16     happening, but classifying it as genocide, I think that that is not

17     right, because it is well known what genocide means according to these

18     formulations.  So I accept all the rest, that that kind of thing

19     happened, except for this formulation, that it was genocide.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Gustafson -- Ms. Gustafson, we'll have a break

21     now.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Okay.  Thank you, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Before -- yes, Mr. Robinson.

24             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  Number one, I would like to

25     know how long she plans to be so we can try to plan our next witness;

Page 31125

 1     and, secondly, Mr. President, I would ask that we adopt a practice that

 2     you had with Dr. Karadzic when it came to additional time for

 3     cross-examination, and that is to ask the Prosecution how much it needs

 4     and then to give them a specific amount of time so that we can equalise

 5     the playing field on which both parties have had to operate on.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  I'm keeping a close eye on this.  And then I

 7     also noted, as Ms. Gustafson indicated, Mr. Karadzic raised some

 8     additional things in his chief examination.  That's why I'm -- we are

 9     allowing some more time to Ms. Gustafson, but fair enough to ask how much

10     longer she would need.

11             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.  I am almost

12     finished with this topic.  I have two further topics which are the ones

13     that were raised new today, and it should take me about 15 minutes.

14             JUDGE KWON:  We'll take a break and resume at 20 past 1.00.

15                           --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 1.22 p.m.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Ms. Gustafson.

18             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you.

19        Q.   Mr. Radan, just before the break, I had asked you whether there

20     was indeed a significant level of crime against non-Serbs at the time of

21     this document we looked at here which was November 1992, and you said,

22     Well, all of that we did point out.  We said all of this was happening.

23             Earlier in respect to a question that Mr. Karadzic put to you

24     about whether there was any attempt on the part of the population of

25     Grbavica, the non-Serb population, to cross to the other side, you said,

Page 31126

 1     "Yes.  They thought they could reunite with their families and have

 2     better living conditions, but there were no expulsions carried out by

 3     us."

 4             It's true, is it not, that one of the reasons that non-Serbs were

 5     fleeing or attempting to flee the municipality or leaving the

 6     municipality was their flight or attempted flight from the significant

 7     level of crime against non-Serbs in Grbavica by members of the military

 8     as described in this report?

 9        A.   I officially don't know about a single incident in which this was

10     cited as the reason for crossing over, but I also know that there was

11     ethnic divisions.  Not expulsions, but divisions along ethnic lines.  I

12     mentioned the 15th of November, 1992, when 300 people left from our

13     municipality and then again 15 buses of Serbs, or maybe people of other

14     ethnicities as well, crossed over into Serbia.  So the people wanted to

15     have a choice and to go and live together with their compatriots.  It is

16     possible, though, that the reasons that you mentioned did exist, that

17     people were being subjected to harassment, that they were seeking a way

18     to cross over in order to escape such situations.

19        Q.   And I'd like now to turn page 26 of the English and page 18 of

20     the B/C/S in this document.  And we have seen earlier, Mr. Radan,

21     Mr. Prijic -- or Dr. Prijic mentioning the need to strengthen the

22     military police and asking for the army's assistance with the problems of

23     crime, and here we see these are concluding remarks by General Mladic,

24     and in the middle of the page in both the English and B/C/S there's an

25     entry where he says:

Page 31127

 1             "Co-operation with SRJ, Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, is good,

 2     but our entrepreneurs should be called to account, municipality

 3     presidents should put an end to the robberies."

 4             In your assessment did municipality presidents have the means and

 5     authority to put an end to large-scale crime by VRS soldiers?

 6        A.   I said earlier that neither the president of the municipality nor

 7     the president of the Executive Council had any leverage to -- to do that

 8     despite having the will and the desire to do so.  They weren't able to

 9     secure normal life, and they didn't have instruments to put that into

10     practice without co-operation with the army, the civilian police, and the

11     military police.  Our recommendations and pleas with regard to what has

12     to be done in the form of joint co-operation among all parties concerned

13     was the only way and our only option.

14        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to turn now to a topic that was raised by

15     Dr. Karadzic this morning about the departure of some Muslims from the

16     area of are Kovacici.  And actually you mentioned it again a moment ago,

17     and I'd just like to clarify, because I think you gave two different

18     dates.  What was the date that this departure took place?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm afraid there is an error in

20     interpretation.  The witness said on the 30th September Muslims and then

21     Serbs in November, but although I refrained from intervening, this is

22     what the transcript reads.

23             MS. GUSTAFSON:

24        Q.   Mr. Radan, what was the date that these Muslims departed, these

25     Muslims from Kovacici?

Page 31128

 1        A.   The Muslims left on the 30th of September, 1992, in the early

 2     morning hours of that day.  Possibly the other party was alerted about

 3     their arrival, because on the other side of the Vrbanja, there were

 4     already journalists and cameras and crews, and this information reached

 5     east river in New York within 15 minutes.

 6        Q.   Okay.  So -- and you said that they were living along the

 7     confrontation line where there was shooting on a daily basis, and you

 8     cited that as the reason for them to leave.  That confrontation line was

 9     established in April of 1992, and it didn't -- it remained static

10     throughout this period; right?

11        A.   No.  It never shifted in that specific area.

12        Q.   And you said earlier that there was daily fighting in that area,

13     and yet for a reason that you apparently aren't aware of, for some reason

14     after living on the confrontation line where there was daily fighting for

15     about six months, all of a sudden in a single day 300 Muslims decided to

16     up and leave; is that right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Okay.  Well, whatever was going on with the Muslims -- and,

19     sorry, Kovacici, that's a different area than Grbavica.  Those are two

20     different neighbourhoods in Novo Sarajevo; right?

21        A.   No, they are not.  There's Vrbanja Most, Kovacici, Grbavica 1 and

22     Grbavica 2, and Hrasno.  This is how these local communities are

23     situated, but they constitute one whole.  Then you have the

24     Jewish Cemetery, Grbavica 1, Grbavica 2, which is on the left river of

25     the Miljacka downstream from the Vrbanja.

Page 31129

 1        Q.   Okay.

 2             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Can we go to 65 ter 09390G, please.  And if we

 3     could zoom in on the -- basically the middle of this map.  A little bit

 4     more.  A little bit more, please.  And if we could shift the map up.  And

 5     zoom in again.  And that should be fine there.

 6        Q.   Now, Mr. Radan, can you see the word "Kovacici" on this map?

 7     Right about in the middle of the screen.

 8        A.   Yes, yes.

 9        Q.   And that depicts the neighbourhood of Kovacici; is that right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Okay.  And I'd like -- I'm going to ask you to put a circle

12     around that, and the usher will assist you.

13        A.   [Marks]

14        Q.   Okay.  And immediately to the left of Kovacici is the

15     Jewish Cemetery; right?  Is that correct?

16        A.   If viewed from here, then it's between Kovacici and Souk Bunar.

17     That's where the Jewish Cemetery is.

18        Q.   Okay.  Could you mark the Jewish Cemetery with a J.

19        A.   [Marks]

20        Q.   And you see the word "Grbavica" to the left, on the left-hand

21     side of the screen?

22        A.   Yes, yes.

23        Q.   That depicts the neighbourhood of Grbavica?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And could you draw a circle around that, please.

Page 31130

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   Okay.  Now, these are clearly two different neighbourhoods aren't

 3     they, Mr. Radan?

 4        A.   No.  It's one whole.  This is Grbavica 2, which I encircled, and

 5     then between Kovacici and Grbavica 2 you have Grbavica 1.  So all these

 6     neighbourhoods are interconnected.

 7        Q.   Well, they may be linked, but they're two different

 8     neighbourhoods, aren't they?

 9        A.   No, that's the settlement of Grbavica.  All of that belongs to

10     Grbavica.  It may be called Kovacici, Grbavica 1, Grbavica 2.  These are

11     all interconnected to constitute one whole.

12        Q.   I'll leave it at that.  Whatever was happening to these Muslims

13     in Kovacici that you referred to on the 30th of September, it is the

14     fact, is it not, that hundreds of Muslims were expelled from Grbavica on

15     the 30th of September, 1992.

16        A.   I don't know on what basis you have established that to be a

17     fact, because that's not what I've said.

18        Q.   Okay.  I want to show you a document, but before we do that, if

19     you could please initial this map in the bottom right-hand corner.

20             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And I'd like to tender that.

21             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

22             JUDGE KWON:  For clarity, why don't we ask the witness to circle

23     the Grbavica 1 as well.

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:

25        Q.   Are you able to circle Grbavica 1, Mr. Radan?

Page 31131

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Could you write down G1.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Today is 6th of December, 2012.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Marks]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  We'll admit that as the next Prosecution exhibit.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Document marked by the witness becomes

 8     Exhibit P6036, Your Honours.

 9             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could have P1266 on the screen.  Sorry,

10     P1266.  I don't believe this is P1266.  Thank you.

11        Q.   Mr. Radan, have you seen this document before?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Okay.

14        A.   Oh, yes.  I'm sorry.  I did see this one.  Yes, I did see it.

15     When I came here.

16        Q.   So the Defence showed this document to you; is that right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And what did they ask you about this document?

19        A.   They asked me about what I knew with regard to this document, and

20     that's what I testified here.  Only one correction, small correction.  It

21     says here Bristol Hotel, whereas the people crossed to the other side

22     across the Vrbanja Bridge.

23        Q.   And all this information that you received about what happened to

24     the Muslims on this day you testified earlier you -- you received that

25     information from the police; is that right?

Page 31132

 1        A.   No.  I said that I learned about this and then I officially

 2     inquired with the police what information they had, because they were the

 3     ones who were supposed to provide official information.  One should not

 4     rely on hearsay and rumours.  That's why I requested official

 5     information.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Earlier in response to a question by the accused you said:

 7             "Since I wasn't personally present there, I nevertheless reacted

 8     immediately by talking to the police."

 9             So if you didn't find out about this from the police, who did you

10     find out about it from given that you weren't personally there?

11        A.   People were talking inside and outside the municipal building

12     when I arrived at work at around 8.30.  When I arrived in my office, I

13     rang the police in order to find out what actually happened.  After that,

14     after I received this information, I took my car and drove to Pale to

15     talk to Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik, the speaker of the Assembly, and to find

16     out if he knew anything about this.  He was completely astounded, because

17     he didn't have accurate information.  And then later on it was found out

18     that this whole thing was something that was self-organised.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Gustafson, it's time to come to your last point.

20             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Okay, Your Honour.

21        Q.   Okay.  So you said people were talking inside and outside the

22     municipal building.  You said later on you found out that -- later on you

23     found out that this whole thing was something that was self-organised.

24     So in the morning that you arrived at the municipal building, were people

25     talking about the fact that Muslims were being expelled?

Page 31133

 1        A.   I said outside the building, and when I was arriving, I heard

 2     about it on my way to work.

 3        Q.   I asked you whether people were talking about the fact that

 4     Muslims were being expelled.  Is that what you heard outside the

 5     municipal building?

 6        A.   They didn't make any assertions.  They were just claiming to know

 7     that they crossed over to the other side and that they heard this

 8     information.  There were individuals, though, who claimed that they had

 9     been expelled, but since I did not want to rely on unconfirmed

10     information, I resorted to contacting official sources to hear from them

11     what actually took place.

12             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Mr. Radan, for answering my questions.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. Gustafson.

14             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.  Do you have re-examination?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellencies.

16                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] And while we still have this document on the

18     screen, Mr. Radan, tell me, did you know any of the persons mentioned in

19     this document, for example this liaison officer of the BH Army who was in

20     charge of liaising with UNPROFOR?

21        A.   Yes, I did know him.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

23             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I'm sorry.  This -- first of all, it's clear that

24     this document was shown to the witness in proofing.  The accused elected

25     not to discuss it with the witness in his testimony.  I didn't ask him

Page 31134

 1     anything about the individuals who drafted this report.  This is not

 2     proper redirect examination.

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, I would disagree.  I think she

 4     can't expect to show a report to a witness and ask him to comment on it

 5     and then not have Dr. Karadzic also be able to comment on the report.

 6             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I didn't get the chance to ask the witness to

 7     comment on it.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  True -- it was true that Ms. Gustafson didn't ask

10     the witness to comment upon the document, so let's move on.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Then I'll start with the most recent things.  Mr. Radan, can you

14     tell us when this crossing over took place and when these 300 people had

15     gathered together?

16        A.   I said that it happened on the morning of 30th of September,

17     early in the morning, and most probably they assembled immediately prior

18     to that.

19        Q.   Thank you.  According to everything that you know, how many

20     people would it require to forcibly take 300 people out of their houses

21     and expel them?

22        A.   Well, I cannot be certain about that, but it will definitely need

23     a large group of people if they wanted to expel them.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know whether these civilians took some

25     personal belongings with them?

Page 31135

 1        A.   Believe me, I have no information about that, because I never saw

 2     them crossing over.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Have you heard that there was a lot of commotion,

 4     that there was or big crowd, that 300 people were assembled in one

 5     spot --

 6             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Objection, leading.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not hear the answer

 8     given by the witness.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Absolutely agree with Ms. Gustafson.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Strike that.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   On page 48, you were asked about instruction A or B.  Did you

13     follow this instruction A and B in executing your power?  I'm talking

14     about transcript page, not the page from your statement.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Gustafson, before Mr. Radan answers the

16     question.

17             MS. GUSTAFSON:  The witness's testimony on instruction A and B

18     was that he didn't know anything about it, so if Dr. Karadzic wants to

19     ask whether it was followed, then he should lay some foundation.

20             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, Mr. President, I think he's entitled to

21     answer that question.  If foundation is required from the answer he can

22     follow up on that, but that seemed to be a very legitimate question.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Did he not say that he didn't know that document at

24     the time of distribution?

25             Mr. Radan, did you become aware of that document at any point of

Page 31136

 1     time later on?  The content of it, I mean.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there was a meeting on the

 3     21st of December, 1991, in the Vraca local commune.  There I was

 4     appointed to the local commune board on behalf of the SDS.  At that

 5     meeting, the security situation was discussed.  Among other things, I

 6     mentioned a case where my car were broken into and the seats torn.  That

 7     was one of the remarks I made.  The rest applied to the security

 8     situation and the presence of the police in charge of that area who were

 9     trying to act without bias.  We asked those superior to him to have him

10     removed from our area, but this paper that was mentioned was not

11     discussed.

12             JUDGE KWON:  So my question was whether you became aware of the

13     document later on, 1992 or 1993.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Then, Mr. Karadzic, you see the point of

16     Ms. Gustafson.

17             MR. ROBINSON:  He could have answered no to that question, which

18     would have also made the same point.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Not knowing the document how could he say that --

20     whether he was implementing the decisions or not.

21             MR. ROBINSON:  He could say that their decisions were being made

22     not following that document and other grounds.  That's what --

23             JUDGE KWON:  No, let's not discuss it.  He said he didn't know

24     the content of the document.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies --

Page 31137

 1     Your Excellencies, if you only trusted me more, you would see its

 2     relevance.  I wanted to ask him whether anyone from the authorities

 3     wanted to check whether they acted on this, but now it's moot.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Let's move on, Mr. Karadzic.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   On page 50 of the transcript, you were asked about a meeting

 8     concerning the defence of Garici [phoen].  As far as you know about our

 9     laws and state administration, can you tell us whether a municipality has

10     genuine competence in the domain of defence?

11        A.   The Crisis Staff was operational at the time, and it had

12     competence to organise people in terms of self-protection in order to

13     prevent anarchy and disorder and to protect the population from security

14     incidents.  That's their role as I see it.

15        Q.   Under the law of All People's Defence, did the municipal

16     president and the Assembly speaker have any competence in the area of

17     defence?

18        A.   They were competent to provide infrastructure, the conditions

19     necessary to mount a defence.  That was it.  The rest was up to the army

20     and probably the police.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Did they then have to attend meetings called by the

22     army?

23        A.   Well, in any case, they should have a common interest, and we

24     responded to each of their invitation as they did when we invited them.

25        Q.   Thank you.  On page 55 and 56, it was suggested to you that at

Page 31138

 1     Vraca there was a special force the MUP.  Vraca, that is to say Grbavica,

 2     was it within the area of responsibility of that brigade, and what was

 3     the nature of that brigade?  Was it a mobile brigade or territorial one?

 4        A.   They were in Vraca for a short while only.  Before the conflict

 5     broke out, they happened to have been there, whereas later they moved to

 6     Lukavica and elsewhere.  As for the police school premises, international

 7     forces, including UNPROFOR, were later billeted there.  So the unit was

 8     mobile and sent where needed.  They were not deployed in that area alone.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  As for the soldiers who were defending Grbavica, were

10     they accommodated in garrison or barracks conditions?  In their free time

11     did they spend their days in the barracks?

12        A.   Some, but most of them went home.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

14             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I don't think this arises from the

15     cross-examination nor does it seem to be particularly relevant.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Did you not ask the police power and military

17     existence in Grbavica?

18             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Yes, Your Honour.  So if you believe that the

19     question is relevant to that, then --

20             JUDGE KWON:  I think so.  Let's continue, Mr. Karadzic.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   When you were asked and shown that at the meeting, there was

24     discussion of soldiers committing crimes, was it also stated that such

25     acts were committed by units or individuals in their spare time when off

Page 31139

 1     duty?

 2        A.   To my knowledge, they were committed by individuals when they

 3     were off duty, but it's an opinion of mine.  It wasn't discussed in terms

 4     of Grbavica per se but generally, and it had to do with what the officers

 5     had to say about that.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  In Exhibit P5065 on page 8 that was shown to you --

 7     well, I wanted to read out a portion starting with the words or remarks

 8     of late Mr. Prijic.  In the English it is page 12.  It reads as follows:

 9             "There are certain problems, thefts, and shooting by fighters.

10     It would be very useful to obtain assistance from the army in order to

11     prevent such problematic behaviour."

12             Then another sentence:

13             "Many fighters act wilfully.  They are taking away property en

14     masse and forcing people out of their apartments.  It is not being

15     sanctioned and affects the morale.  The military police has been tackling

16     the problem but they are still not enough in terms of numbers."

17             Is that what you would agree with?

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpret's note:  There was no pause.  Could

19     the witness repeat his answer.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Radan, please put a pause before starting

21     answering the question.  The interpreters were not able to hear your

22     answer.  Could you repeat it?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So I do not agree in full with what

24     President Prijic stated.  That was his own observation.  I disagree with

25     it, because that was not the case in Grbavica, and this was not the only

Page 31140

 1     case where we did not share the same view.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Radan, did you disagree with his opinion of the

 4     situation or with his assertion that the military police was still too

 5     weak?

 6        A.   I disagreed with his image of the situation.  The military police

 7     was set up in Grbavica when Mr. Sipcic arrived.  The military police was

 8     established partially in Grbavica, and they acted whenever necessary.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  You meant General Sipcic?

10        A.   No, Mr. Simo Sipcic who was chief of the military police.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have in e-court page --

13     yes.  Yes.  Can we have 1D2799, if that is an exhibit already.  No, it

14     hasn't been admitted.  Perhaps we shall tender it shortly.  1D2799.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   So let me tell you about the document.  This purports to be a

17     statement by Mr. Simo Sipcic in the media.  He stated that Novo Sarajevo

18     rule of law is being established.  In the municipality of Novo Sarajevo

19     public law and order is gradually being established according to the

20     statement of Captain Simo Sipcic, chief of the military police of the

21     Serbian municipality of Novo Sarajevo.  Civilians respect the military

22     and civilian authorities.  All difficulties that the citizens had are --

23     were being effectively dealt with regardless of their nationality.  The

24     number of citizens returning illegally obtained property to the

25     authorities is ever-increasing, et cetera, does this tally with

Page 31141

 1     Mr. Sipcic's attempts to introduce law and order?

 2        A.   Yes, it does, in full.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

 4             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Your Honour, what appears to be happening -- this

 5     document was notified to us as a document that the accused was planning

 6     to use in direct and if fits squarely within the testimony that the

 7     accused elicited from the witness.  What appears to be happening here is

 8     that the accused is holding back eliciting some of this evidence and then

 9     waiting until after the cross-examination and attempting to somehow

10     rehabilitate the witness with questions that are basically duplicative of

11     the direct examination.  That's not what redirect examination is for.

12     It's supposed to be narrowly directed to specific issues that arise

13     directly from the cross-examination and that's not what's going on here,

14     in my submission.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, Mr. President, the redirect examination is

16     limited by the scope of the cross, and when she goes into areas like this

17     which she clearly did, then Dr. Karadzic is entitled.  He can choose to

18     forego a document in his direct examination and then later decide to use

19     it if it's within the scope of cross.  There's nothing wrong with that at

20     all.  This is a trial where both sides get a chance to do that.  The

21     Prosecution did that whenever they felt they had the need to do that for

22     reasons of time or whatever.  So I don't see that that's a valid

23     objection.

24             JUDGE KWON:  By doing so, if the Defence is going to elicit a new

25     element, the Prosecution should be allowed to cross-examine that part as

Page 31142

 1     well.

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Gustafson, the Chamber agrees with Mr. Robinson.

 5     Let's continue.

 6             Let's continue, Mr. Tieger.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   So on page 8, you agreed that they were consulted but still

 9     inefficient, the military police, that is.  Did they distinguish among

10     the citizens of Novo Sarajevo based on their ethnicity?

11        A.   I have no such knowledge.  Everyone had the right.

12     Mr. Simo Sipcic was open to all remarks and objections.  Anyone could

13     approach him and lodge a complaint.  There was no discrimination that I

14     know of.

15        Q.   Just one question that remains unclear concerning the

16     Jewish Cemetery.  Did the confrontation line have to do with the

17     Jewish Cemetery?  Where were the forces of the two sides?

18        A.   It was at the foot of Debelo Brdo.  That's where the

19     Jewish Cemetery is including Gornji Kovacici and Donji Kovacici and the

20     lines went all the way to the Vrbanja Bridge.  That was the separation

21     line, and there was basically daily combat.  From the Jewish Cemetery

22     there were Muslim forces shooting, and on the other side there were the

23     Serb forces.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Your Excellencies, I

25     seek to tender this document.

Page 31143

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

 2             MS. WEST:  No objection.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  We'll give the next Defence exhibit

 4     number.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Document receives number D2552, Your Honours.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Madam Gustafson, for

 7     complimenting me on my skill to be able to manipulate evidence.

 8     Unfortunately, I'm still an amateur.

 9             I have no further questions.  Thank you, Mr. Radan.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Well, that concludes your evidence, Mr. Radan.  On

11     behalf of the Chamber, I thank you for your coming to The Hague to give

12     it.  Now you are free to go.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14                           [The witness withdrew]

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Before we bring in the next witness,

16     shall we go into private session briefly.

17                           [Private session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 31144

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15                           [Open session]

16             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Let's bring in the next witness.

18                           [The witness entered court]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness take the solemn declaration,

20     please.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sorry.  I solemnly declare that I

22     will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23                           WITNESS:  SVETOZAR GUZINA

24                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Guzina.  Please take a seat and make

Page 31145

 1     yourself comfortable.

 2             Mr. Guzina, before you start giving evidence, I would like to

 3     draw your attention to a particular Rule here at the Tribunal.  Under

 4     this Rule, Rule 90(E), you may object to answering a question from the

 5     Prosecution or the accused or from the Judges if you believe that your

 6     answer will incriminate you.  When I said "incriminate," I mean that

 7     something you say may amount to an admission of your guilt for a criminal

 8     offence or could provide evidence that you have committed an offence.

 9     However, even if you think your answer will incriminate you and you do

10     not wish to answer the question, the Tribunal has the power to compel you

11     to answer the question.  But in such a case, the Tribunal will make sure

12     that your testimony compelled in such a way shall not be used as evidence

13     in other case against you for any offence other than false testimony.

14             Do you understand what I have just told you, sir?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Guzina.

17             Mr. Karadzic.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Guzina.

21        A.   Good afternoon, Mr. President.

22        Q.   Did you provide a statement to my Defence team?

23        A.   I probably did.  Can you tell me which one?

24        Q.   Could we have 1D607 [as interpreted].  I had the written

25     statement in mind.  Also, please put a break between questions and

Page 31146

 1     answers so as not to wear out the interpreters and have an accurate

 2     record.

 3             1D6807.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Did you read the statement and sign it?

 6        A.   I did.

 7        Q.   Does it contain accurately everything you said or would you

 8     change anything?

 9        A.   To the best of my knowledge, it's all in there.

10        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to put the same questions to you today,

11     would your answers be the same basically?

12        A.   They would.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Would I like to tender this statement on the basis of

14     Rule 92 ter.

15             JUDGE KWON:  About the documents -- yes, Mr. Robinson.

16             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  We would ask that five of the

17     documents be added to our 65 ter list.  The reason they were not on the

18     list is that we weren't aware of them at the time that the initial

19     interview was -- at the time that the exhibit list was filed.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Five or six, Mr. Robinson?

21             MR. ROBINSON:  There are six exhibits but five are not on the

22     list.  One is.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Which was on the list?

24             MR. ROBINSON:  1D01762, the first one.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Any objections?  Ms. West?

Page 31147

 1             MS. WEST:  Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours.  I have

 2     no objection.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll admit the 92 ter statement first.

 4     We'll give the number.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D6807 receives number D2553,

 6     Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  And the -- as regards the six associated exhibits,

 8     the numbers will be given in due course by the Registrar.

 9             Let us continue.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Thank you.  Now I'm going to read out the summary of your

12     statement, Mr. Guzina's statement in the English language.

13             [In English] Svetozar Guzina was the battalion commander of the

14     5th Battalion of the Ilidza Brigade of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps of the

15     VRS beginning on the 22nd of June, 1992, and later the battalion

16     commander for the 1st Battalion of the Ilidza Brigade.  He served as a

17     deputy brigade commander when the Ilidza Brigade commander was absent or

18     on leave.

19             Svetozar Guzina noted that in the spring of 1991, the Muslims in

20     Sokolovic Kolonija had begun arming themselves.  A few Serbs received

21     threats that they would be expelled from Sokolovic Kolonija and they

22     became very concerned.  In an attempt to resolve the situation a meeting

23     was set up with prominent representatives of the three peoples,

24     Svetozar Guzina became a representative of the Serb people.

25             At the meeting, the Muslim representatives originally denied that

Page 31148

 1     they were arming, an agreement was reached that a joint night-time patrol

 2     should be set up to reassure the population.  In late February 1992,

 3     barricades were erected which stopped people leaving Sokolovic Kolonija.

 4     Muslims became more vocal and began demonstrating against the Serbs.

 5             In March 1992, a large crowd of armed Muslims gathered by the

 6     primary school in Sokolovic Kolonija.  When Svetozar Guzina arrived, he

 7     and those with him were forced out of the car and were searched by armed

 8     men.  They were held at gunpoint and Svetozar Guzina was certain he was

 9     going to die.  Enver Hodzic, one of the representatives of the Muslims,

10     and Husein Mahmutovic, who was president of the municipality, calmed the

11     situation down and they were released.

12             After this incident the situation deteriorated and more

13     barricades were erected.  The Serb population was surrounded.  The

14     Serbian authorities in Ilidza concluded that Serbs should move out of

15     Sokolovic Kolonija while a large number of Serbs had already left their

16     homes.  A further meeting was held at which the Muslims suggested Serbs

17     not to leave their own homes as the Muslims would guarantee their safety

18     and peace and would protect the Serb population.  However,

19     Svetozar Guzina no longer had faith in the guarantees provided by the

20     Muslims.  At the meeting, armed men burst in reporting a further incident

21     in Foca during which people had been killed and injured, tensions were

22     very high.

23             It was decided that Enver Hodzic, a Muslim representative, and

24     Svetozar Guzina should make an announcement on the radio to the people of

25     Sokolovic Kolonija in an attempt to stop the fighting.  Svetozar Guzina

Page 31149

 1     heard from his brother that the world media was reporting that there

 2     would be a war in BH.  He found that some sort of League for Yugoslavia

 3     existed and it attracted people from all ethnic backgrounds.  The league

 4     handed out weapons to Serbs, Muslims, and Croats.

 5             The first attack on Ilidza took place on 22nd of April, 1992,

 6     when Muslims entered the hospital and took doctors and patients

 7     prisoners.  They then began shooting from the building.  Svetozar Guzina

 8     and those with him had no previous experience of battle and many were

 9     shooting out of fear.  The battle lasted until 5.00 p.m. when the JNA

10     arrived from Lukavica and this is when the shooting stopped.  Many were

11     relieved by the arrival of the army.  The fighting continued for a number

12     of months with daily battles raging and during this period they were

13     trained by the JNA.  There were no plans to advance at this point, simply

14     to defend their own property and their lives.

15             During the fighting across B and H, the police basically fell

16     apart and the army in Sarajevo was attacked and practically destroyed.

17     Many people were captured, killed, or wounded.  The army did not come to

18     assist in Ilidza.  Many people did not have regular meals and they were

19     very scared.

20             In June 1992, the JNA were involved in a deliberation of

21     residential area in Dobrinja near the airport, without which the unit

22     would be basically surrounded with only one road towards Pale accessible

23     to them.  The Muslims responded to these movements during a cease-fire

24     with a fierce counter attack.  Svetozar Guzina requested artillery from

25     the Igman Brigade which was granted once extensive explanations were --

Page 31150

 1     immediately after extensive explanations were given about the reasons for

 2     this request.

 3             Svetozar Guzina never issued an order to fire at civilians, nor

 4     was he aware that any of his subordinates or superiors issued such an

 5     order.  Each commander of a unit was to evacuate civilians from the zone

 6     of combat operation or limit their presence in these zones.  However,

 7     civilians continued to remain near the front line despite the warnings.

 8     Svetozar Guzina was aware that Muslim forces had positions in civilian

 9     zones and civilian buildings throughout the fighting, including the

10     television building, Fatima Gunic school, Dobrinja C5, and Papagajka

11     building.

12             Before the conflict started and even afterwards, a considerable

13     number of people left Sarajevo via Ilidza.  The Serbian Army and civilian

14     authorities did not prevent anyone from leaving.  Further, higher

15     commands issued orders to facilitate unhindered passage of humanitarian

16     aid convoys.  These were adhered to even though on several occasions

17     whilst carrying out routine checks it was discovered that the convoys

18     contained prohibited and undeclared goods.  With regard to the sniping

19     incident near the junction of Nikola Demonja and Bulevar AVNOJ in

20     Dobrinja, Svetozar Guzina states that the distance between the alleged

21     point and the alleged place where it struck is greater than the range

22     that can be successfully attained by any sniper rifle in the VRS arsenal.

23     There is no optical visibility between the alleged place of firing and

24     the place of the incident.

25             With regard to the sniping incident in Djure Jaksica street,

Page 31151

 1     Svetozar Guzina states that the place of the alleged incident was behind

 2     the first line and that it was not logical to assume the presence of

 3     civilians in this location.

 4             [Interpretation] That would be the summary.

 5             I'd just like to put a few questions to you.  In your statement

 6     here, you said that you never issued an order to fire at civilians, and

 7     that your subordinates never issued such orders.  Nevertheless, did it

 8     happen that civilians would get killed on both sides?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   How would that happen?  How do you explain that if it was not on

11     orders?

12        A.   At any rate, it wasn't on orders.  It is a fact that there were

13     civilian casualties on both sides.  However, I can say freely that this

14     is collateral damage on both sides.  Civilians who happened to be on the

15     front line, no one wanted to kill them.  They simply happened to be there

16     because fire that had been opened was not individual fire.  It was

17     automatic gunfire.  There was a lot of bullet dispersion on both sides,

18     and therefore civilian casualties could not be avoided.

19             As far as the Serb side is concerned, at least in my commanding

20     the 1st Battalion, civilians were ordered not to go to their homes.  It

21     was forbidden.  But simply people went to their homes to see their

22     houses, to see their property, to see whether everything was in proper

23     order, and that is how quite a few ended up getting killed.

24        Q.   Thank you.  The armies in your area, were they properly dressed?

25     Could you make a distinction between them and civilians?

Page 31152

 1        A.   No, certainly not.  The first year, year and a half, we all wore

 2     camouflage.  Some people had military uniforms of the TO defence, and

 3     quite a few of us simply had tracksuits, trainers, civilian clothing, and

 4     we went to the front line to carry out our duties dressed that way.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Did you learn of civilian casualties, and if so, what

 6     did you do about that?

 7        A.   We found out about our casualties on our side.  There were quite

 8     a few civilian casualties, and we tried in every conceivable way to

 9     remove them from the front line.  We did our best, to the best of our

10     ability.

11             As for the Muslim side, when UNPROFOR arrived we had some

12     information to the effect that certain incidents had occurred as far as

13     Muslim civilians are concerned.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Were you asked to testify in any other case before

15     this Tribunal?

16        A.   Yes.  I think it was 2003.  I was called in for an interview in

17     General Galic's case.  I was in Belgrade a few times to talk to people

18     from The Hague.

19        Q.   And how did it happen that you did not testify after all?

20        A.   Well, probably they didn't like my answers.  I mean, it is a fact

21     that during those first days of my interviews there wasn't any pressure,

22     any duress, and as the interview proceeded, there was more and more

23     pressure exerted.  They were not happy with some of the answers that I

24     provided to their questions, and once I said, Now, how come you're asking

25     me to provide false testimony against my general with whom I fought for

Page 31153

 1     four years?  And they said that they had the right to transfer me and to

 2     protect me in Canada, America, Europe, that that's no problem, that I

 3     should just say what suited them and I didn't accept that, and that's

 4     probably the reason why ultimately I did not testify in General Galic's

 5     case.

 6        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Guzina.  At this point in time I have no further

 7     questions.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Before that, who are they, the Prosecutor's office

 9     or the Defence of Mr. Galic?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor's office.  As far as

11     I know, it was the Prosecutor's office.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Mr. Guzina, as you have noted now, your

13     evidence in most part was admitted in -- in writing, in written form,

14     i.e., your statement, in lieu of your oral testimony.  Now you'll be

15     cross-examined by the representative of the Office of the Prosecutor,

16     Ms. West.

17             Yes, Ms. West.

18             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19                           Cross-examination by Ms. West:

20        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Guzina.

21        A.   Good afternoon.

22        Q.   We're going to spend a little bit of time speaking this

23     afternoon, but this will go over to next week.  And the first question

24     that I want to ask you regards your area of responsibility.  May we have

25     1D10070, please.  I know you provided some maps for the Defence in which

Page 31154

 1     you outlined the area in which you operated, and one of those maps is

 2     going to come up shortly.

 3             Do you recognise this map?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And it's -- it's a bit difficult to see, but we see a red line,

 6     and it goes around the area of Nedzarici.  At the very most northern part

 7     of your area of responsibility -- may I ask the usher's assistance please

 8     to turn on his monitor so he can mark it.

 9             I'd like you to show me where the school of the blind is located,

10     and in a moment you're going to be able to mark on your screen.  You can

11     just circle the building, please.

12        A.   [Marks]

13        Q.   And you can put a B next to that, please.

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   Now, this is one of the buildings that you noted in paragraph 36

16     of your statement that was a building of significance in your area of

17     responsibility.  You also noted the theology institute.  Can you please

18     circle that for me.

19        A.   [Marks]

20        Q.   And put a T next to at that, please.

21        A.   [Marks]

22        Q.   Can you sign and date that, please.  Today is the 6th.

23        A.   Which part of the map?

24        Q.   In the bottom is fine.

25        A.   [Marks]

Page 31155

 1             JUDGE KWON:  6th of December.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The date?  [Marks]

 3             MS. WEST:  Thank you.  Mr. President, may I tender this, please.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Document marked by the witness becomes

 6     Exhibit P6037, Your Honours.

 7             MS. WEST:

 8        Q.   Now, sir, at paragraph 44 of your statement -- I see that you

 9     have a copy in front of you; is that right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   That's fine.

12        A.   May I use it though?

13        Q.   Yes.  I'll refer you to paragraph 44.  And in paragraph 44,

14     that's when you speak about a particular incident that we have indicated

15     is incident F7.  It happened on May 25th, 1994, and this is an allegation

16     that -- a sniping allegation where the round hit a bus and then

17     ricochetted off the bus and hit two women inside the bus.

18             Do you remember speaking about this incident with the Defence?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   May we have P01739, please.  In a moment on your screen you're

21     going to see a map.  This is from the Sarajevo map book.  And this is an

22     area that I would suspect you're familiar with.  This is Dobrinja;

23     correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And if you'd look at the red number 7.  Do you see that circle

Page 31156

 1     with the number 7 on it?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And that's the crossroads of the incident that you spoke about in

 4     paragraph 44; correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Now, on this map I think you'll be able to find the theological

 7     institute if you look closely.  I know you're familiar with this area,

 8     but do you see the theological institute on this map?

 9        A.   Point 75, is that it?

10        Q.   That is, and that's fine.  You don't need to mark it.  Were you

11     aware that at the end of the street, the end of the street where the

12     crossroads were, Bulevar AVNOJ, there was a screen placed there for the

13     purposes of deterring sniper attacks?  Were you aware of that

14     information?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Okay.  Sir, do you concede that your battalion had sniper rifles

17     in its possession?

18        A.   Could you please repeat your question?

19        Q.   Did your battalion have any sniper rifles in its possession?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   And so you received no information about any sniping going on

22     within your battalion.  Is that what I should understand?

23        A.   I received information about sniping from UNPROFOR -- or, rather,

24     the liaison officers who were in contact with us every day.

25        Q.   When you say you received information from UNPROFOR, were they

Page 31157

 1     suggesting that sniping was coming out of your area of responsibility?

 2        A.   UNPROFOR officers conveyed it that way.  However, the fact is

 3     that it was only one side, that is to say the Muslim side, that conveyed

 4     this to them.  We had not even seen that activity, and after all, we

 5     hadn't carried it out to begin with.  It was just one-sided.  UNPROFOR

 6     conveyed it to us, whereas this was conveyed to them by the Muslims and

 7     the documentation was from the Muslim side.

 8        Q.   And when UNPROFOR approached you with that information, did you

 9     tell them you had no sniper rifles in your battalion?

10        A.   Specifically in this case, if we're talking about incident F7 --

11        Q.   I'm not.  I'm speaking generally.

12        A.   Oh, generally.  The fact is that in my 1st Battalion there was no

13     need for us to have sniper rifles.  You will see where the separation

14     line was in the 1st Battalion.  In 90 per cent of all cases, it was just

15     the street.  So there was 25 to 30 metres involved only.  So in this

16     urban area, a sniper could not operate at all.

17        Q.   Okay.  And we'll get back to that, but let's go back to my

18     question, which is:  When the UNPROFOR approached you and suggested to

19     you that there were allegations -- allegations of sniping coming out of

20     your area of responsibility, did you tell UNPROFOR, We don't have sniper

21     rifles.  We are not sniping.  Did you deny that you were doing that?

22        A.   Well, of course I denied it, because I know that we did not have

23     any sniper rifles in the area of the 1st Battalion.  As a matter of fact,

24     I know that we did not have trained sniper shooters, and I claim that

25     with full responsibility.  I claim that with full responsibility, and I

Page 31158

 1     stand by that.  Now, whether there was a hunting gun or an M-48 with some

 2     optics possibly, but sniper rifles, no, we did not have any.

 3        Q.   Well, you just said you had no trained sniper shooters, but you

 4     would agree with me, wouldn't you, that even an untrained sniper shooter

 5     but somebody who was just a good shot could hit a stationary bus.  That

 6     seems reasonable, don't it?

 7        A.   Well, it would be that way sort of.

 8        Q.   I'm not sure what you mean by that answer.  Is it true that

 9     somebody who is not necessarily a trained sniper could easily hit a

10     stationary bus?

11        A.   Well, if this is not a trained sniper shooter, if he were to fire

12     ten bullets at the bus, maybe one or two would hit the target, but

13     certainly not all ten.

14        Q.   Okay, we'll leave that there.

15             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, may I inquire if this is a good time to

16     stop.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Mr. Guzina, we have to adjourn for the week

18     and resume next week on Tuesday at 9.00, but in the meantime, you are not

19     supposed to discuss with anybody else about your testimony while you are

20     in the course of giving testimony.  Do you understand that, sir,

21     Mr. Guzina?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand that.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Then the hearing is adjourned.

24                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.43 p.m.,

25                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 11th day

Page 31159

 1                           of December, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.