Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 31261

 1                           Wednesday, 12 December 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             Good morning, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.  It's been a while since I saw

 8     you last in the courtroom.

 9             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I can't see you

10     hardly.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Good morning, Ms. Edgerton.  Please continue.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  Good morning.  And, Your Honours, just regarding

13     yesterday and our discussion about the exhibits, I've had an opportunity

14     to review the details of those exhibits, the ones we described -- or I

15     described as mis-characterised yesterday, and it's going to be far more

16     effective and efficient in terms of time to deal with those in our final

17     brief rather than in court today.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

19                           WITNESS:  VLADIMIR RADOJCIC [Resumed]

20                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

21                           Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton: [Continued]

22        Q.   Good morning, Colonel.

23        A.   [In English] Good morning.

24        Q.   Now yesterday in talking about the air bomb incident of 7 April,

25     1995, you said at page 31258:

Page 31262

 1             "As far as I can tell, the target of my brigade was only the

 2     command post of the 4th and later on the 104th Motorised Brigade," which

 3     you said first was in the Hrasnica school and then in the post office in

 4     Hrasnica.

 5             So my question to you is -- from this:  Who made the target

 6     decision, was that you or was that someone else?

 7        A.   Regarding specifically air bombs, at the meeting --

 8        Q.   Sorry, sorry.  My question is:  In this specific case regarding

 9     this incident on 7 April, 1995, who made the target decision, you or

10     someone else?

11        A.   I was the one.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And that was, as I understand your evidence, based on

13     your understanding of a range of error for the modified air bombs of 10

14     metres at a distance of 1.000 metres based on those temporary firing

15     tables?

16        A.   I used the term "temporary firing tables," not provisional firing

17     tables because in the Serbian language the word "provisional" is

18     associated with improvisation.  Those were temporary firing tables and

19     they were temporary because the combat rules for the use of those assets

20     had not been written yet.

21        Q.   That's fine.  But to go back to my question, my question was that

22     you made that decision based on your understanding of a range of error of

23     10 metres at a distance of 1.000 metres, as you said in your statement

24     and in your evidence yesterday at page 31250 [sic]; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.  I made the decision to use the air bomb on that target

Page 31263

 1     because I estimated that at that moment it was the most profitable

 2     target.  Let's not forget that in the past three days there were

 3     intensive combat actions between 104th Brigade and the 2nd Brigade of the

 4     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

 5        Q.   Now -- thank you.  Now, given the destructive power of these

 6     bombs that you talked about yesterday, if the range of error had been any

 7     greater than 10 metres at a distance of 1.000 metres, you wouldn't have

 8     used it in an urban area, would you?

 9        A.   I said this yesterday, the command was based at the post office

10     and 50 metres away from it was the so-called school - I'm saying

11     "so-called" because it was not actually a school.  So the possibility of

12     error and causing civilian casualties was minimal; that's one thing.  And

13     the second thing, I repeat, Mr. Fikret Prevljak, the commander of --

14        Q.   Now, I really hate to interrupt you, but to go back to my

15     question, my question was:  If the range of error had been greater than

16     10 metres at a distance of 1.000 metres - which is what you gave evidence

17     yesterday that you understood it to be - you wouldn't have used this

18     weapon in an urban area, would you?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And you also said yesterday that you used Plamen rockets as the

21     fuelling agent for these bombs and that was at 31251; correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   So this new modified system incorporating the air bombs also

24     incorporated the existing Plamen rocket system?

25        A.   Yes, fuel rockets without explosive charge.

Page 31264

 1        Q.   And its accuracy then would have been the same as the existing

 2     system?

 3        A.   Probably.

 4        Q.   All right.  I'd like to have 65 ter number 24335A called up,

 5     please.  And these are firing tables for the 128-millimetre M63

 6     multiple-rocket system called Plamen, as you see from the first page in

 7     front of you.  And if we could go over to page 2.  Just by the way,

 8     Colonel, you know how to read a firing table based on your evidence

 9     yesterday; correct?

10        A.   Yes, yes.

11        Q.   So if we could have a look, then, at the table here on the

12     left-hand side, most left-hand column, this is the column that, you would

13     agree with me, shows distance; correct?  It has metres set out.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Now, in the third line down on the left-hand side we see the

16     figure of 1.000 metres and if we go over to the furthest right-hand

17     column we see -- pardon me, the furthest two right-hand columns, we see

18     the figures for range of error, don't we?  And we see that at a range of

19     1.000 metres, the Plamen rocket has a margin of error of give or take 146

20     metres by 4 and a half metres.  You would agree with me?

21        A.   And your question is?

22        Q.   You would agree with me?  The range of error for the Plamen

23     rocket is plus or minus 146 metres by plus or minus 5 metres.

24        A.   I can answer that the multiple-rocket launcher has 32 rockets and

25     it's designed mainly for a large-area targets.  This firing table is used

Page 31265

 1     for that weapon and we only had one fuelled rocket.  So this firing table

 2     cannot apply to a modified air bomb because this was designed for 32

 3     rockets.  If you are aiming at the centre of the target, the error is

 4     maximum what is indicated here, but the area covered by the

 5     multiple-rocket launcher is much larger than the area covered by the

 6     modified air bomb.  So you cannot use these figures for comparison with

 7     the modified air bomb.

 8        Q.   Even taking that into account -- now let me ask you another

 9     question.  So are you saying that the range of error -- so it's your

10     contention that taking the warhead from the Plamen rocket and attaching a

11     heavier object makes it actually more accurate than the standard produced

12     tested warhead that we've got firing tables for; is that your evidence?

13        A.   I have to apologise and say that you are putting questions to me

14     that do not fall within my area of knowledge and training.  I can only

15     tell you what I know from experience, but I really cannot answer this

16     question.

17             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, can we -- Colonel, can you assist.  The

18     multiple-rocket launcher fires 32 individual weapons.  Each weapon has a

19     propellant and a warhead.  Now if I recall from previous evidence, the

20     modified air bombs were propelled by taking four of those rockets,

21     removing the warheads from them, and simply using them as a propellant.

22     So --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  We would need your verbal answer.

24             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yeah.  You're nodding instead of saying "yes."

25     Was the answer to all my questions so far been yes?

Page 31266

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2             JUDGE MORRISON:  So the ballistics of the single rocket, albeit

 3     fired in multiples of 32, and a modified air bomb with four rocket

 4     motors, to a layman it sounds it must be different.  Was that your

 5     understanding?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             JUDGE MORRISON:  See, the danger is, I think, Ms. Edgerton that

 8     you're to some extent comparing apples and oranges it seems to me.  To

 9     use the firing tables for one weapon system and apply it to a modified

10     and unique system, there may be degrees of inaccuracy, but speaking for

11     myself I don't see how you can use the ballistic tables for one weapon

12     and apply it to another weapon without some form of ballistic expert

13     evidence to back it up.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours, I had no intention of taking --

15     after the Colonel's answers taking this matter any further in any case --

16             JUDGE MORRISON:  No.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  -- with this witness.  I would simply be asking to

18     be able to understand his answers that this document be marked for

19     identification as a Prosecution exhibit, given that it's untranslated.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll mark it for identification.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 24335A receives number P6040, MFI'd,

22     Your Honours.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I intervene.  The witness said

24     it is much too expert a question for me.  That's what he said in line 16.

25     He said this is much too specialised an issue not falling within my area

Page 31267

 1     of knowledge.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  That's fine if the witness confirms that's

 3     accurate, and I'd like to move on, please.

 4        Q.   Now, yesterday you also said the house that was hit in Hrasnica

 5     on 7 April 1995 was about 20 to 30 metres away from the facility that was

 6     your target, and I'd like to call up 65 ter number 24334, please.  Now,

 7     Colonel, this is an enlargement of a scaled map of Hrasnica marking where

 8     you see the green number 10, the location of the incident on 7 April,

 9     1995, and where you see the line with the marking 150 metres, the

10     distance between that location and the Aleksa Santic school, and where

11     you see the line that says 148 metres, the distance between the location

12     of the incident and the former post office.  So that's actually not what

13     you said yesterday, is it?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please get the provenance

15     of this map.  Who established that it was here?

16             JUDGE KWON:  Let's hear the answer and then you can deal with

17     this matter in your re-examination.  She's introduced the scale and the

18     location.  It's up to -- it's for the witness to confirm or deny.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the information I got from

20     UNPROFOR and the people who had fled Sarajevo, the air bomb that was

21     launched landed exactly between the school and the post office

22     building - and I'm using these terms "post office" and "school"

23     conditionally.  So I cannot comment this information that it landed

24     somewhere on the road.

25             MS. EDGERTON:

Page 31268

 1        Q.   Well, first of all, I never said it landed somewhere on the road.

 2     I told you yesterday it landed on a civilian house.  And my question to

 3     you is:  These two distances being 150 metres between the scene of the

 4     incident and the school and 148 metres between the scene of the incident

 5     and the post office are not the distances you gave yesterday, are they?

 6        A.   According to what is written here, it would seem so.  But I'm

 7     telling you, I have information that it did not land there.  And I said

 8     "the road," because the yellow lines indicate roads.  It looks like it

 9     landed exactly on the road.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Could I have this as a Prosecution exhibit,

12     please.

13             JUDGE KWON:  But how can you argue that number 10 is the point of

14     landing of the air bomb with this witness?  Did the witness confirm that

15     number 10 is the point of landing?

16             MS. EDGERTON:  Accepted, Your Honour.  I'll just move on.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

18             MS. EDGERTON:

19        Q.   Now, you've just mentioned the information that you had from

20     UNPROFOR and other sources and you mentioned yesterday in your testimony

21     that you heard from UNPROFOR that a Bosnian -- that only one soldier was

22     hit in the incident.  And I'd like us to have a look at P2059 in that

23     regard, please.  And there should be a translation available for the

24     Colonel.  Now, this is a special report from SI-1 entitled:  "Large

25     Explosion on Hrasnica on 7th April 1995."  And it's a United Nations

Page 31269

 1     document, page 1, paragraph 1 says:

 2             "As a result of the impact, one civilian female was killed, three

 3     civilian females, and one civilian boy were injured ..."

 4             So, in fact, this report from UNPROFOR is contrary to the

 5     information you said you received yesterday, isn't it, Colonel?

 6        A.   According to the information I have, in the building that was

 7     destroyed and which you claim to be a civilian target -- a civilian

 8     building, I said it was a building that housed the guards detail of the

 9     104 Brigade, and even a picture was shown where we could see the legs of

10     a uniformed soldier.  So I spoke yesterday about what I'd seen.

11        Q.   You actually didn't answer my question and my question was:  This

12     report from UNPROFOR is contrary to your evidence yesterday to the effect

13     that UNPROFOR told you only one soldier was hit, isn't it?

14        A.   What is written here is different.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Now, in your statement you mentioned at paragraph 26

16     of your statement - and I see you've got your statement in front of you

17     so you might want to have a look at that paragraph - at paragraph 26 you

18     spoke about civilian casualties in Serb-held territory when you were

19     talking about the psychological state of civilians in your zone of

20     responsibility.  And you said the civilian casualties created a big

21     psychological pressure on the civilian population.  So you're talking

22     about shelling and sniping civilians in Serb-held territory; correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   So you mean to say that these civilians were scared and insecure?

25        A.   Certainly.

Page 31270

 1        Q.   Frightened of what could happen to them and their family in, for

 2     example, going outside because they wouldn't know where the next shell

 3     might be coming from?

 4        A.   That war did not last three days - it lasted a long time - and

 5     civilians needed to abandon buildings where they lived.  Life went on

 6     normally almost, market-places were open, shops worked; and what can be

 7     established on the basis of my daily reports that I regularly sent to the

 8     corps command, in moments when we expected it least Ilidza was hit by

 9     mortar shells and artillery shells from Mount Igman causing great

10     casualties.  I think you can certainly see that from my reports.

11        Q.   Now --

12        A.   I believe the number of civilian casualties in Ilidza was about

13     1.000.

14        Q.   So that -- that pressure and fear that you're talking about --

15     well, actually you're talking about terror, aren't you?

16        A.   I don't understand the question.  Terror on whose part?

17        Q.   I thought you were talking about civilians in Serb-held territory

18     being terrorised by shelling and sniping?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   All right.  So -- well, let me ask you this.  So being the

21     subject of constant shelling and pervasive sniping would cause this fear

22     anywhere, wouldn't it?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Including for civilians in Bosnian-held Sarajevo; correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 31271

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  Nothing further, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.

 4             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, you have re-examination?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Excellency.  Good morning,

 6     Excellencies.  Good morning to everybody.

 7                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Colonel, sir.

 9        A.   Good morning.

10        Q.   You were asked whether sniping in urban areas where civilians

11     lived constituted terror.  Did you open fire on the Muslim civilian areas

12     in order to terrorise civilians?  Why did you open fire in those areas?

13        A.   The Ilidza Brigade opened fire but never on civilian targets

14     which were exclusively civilian targets.  But I have to say that the

15     school in Dobrinja was not a civilian target because it housed the

16     brigade command.  A residential building which is fortified is also not a

17     civilian target.  Muslims used those means.  They intentionally found

18     shelter in such facilities in order to represent a possible response by

19     our forces as terror.

20        Q.   Thank you.  In that sense, can you tell us who was it who opened

21     the fire first?  Who was it who benefitted most from fire being opened in

22     Sarajevo?

23        A.   Mr. President, as you may well know, on several occasions I don't

24     know how many times a dozen of times cease-fires were agreed.  Along the

25     line of subordination, we received orders to strictly adhere to those

Page 31272

 1     orders on cease-fire and we did adhere to them.  Unfortunately, the

 2     Muslim forces did not honour that.  They benefitted from the opportunity

 3     to provoke us into engaging at the moments when it suited them the most,

 4     and it suited them the most when a delegation was about to visit Sarajevo

 5     and we really feared that.  Whenever somebody arrived, we emphasized for

 6     all of our combatants make sure not to engage in any provocations because

 7     the Muslims will want you to do that.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  You were also asked about firing air bombs on

 9     Hrasnica and a reference was made to a statement was Overgard.  Was

10     Overgard a member of UNPROFOR or was he an MO, a military observer?  Do

11     you remember that?

12        A.   No, I don't.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And now I'd like to call up

15     65 ter 15890.  Perhaps we should better look at the statement.  This

16     is -- the transcript.  Let's look at 65 ter 10001.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   You received information from a member of the United Nations

19     forces, right, you mentioned that?

20        A.   Yes.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 10001.  Can we take a look

22     at the following page.  In English and in Serbian it should be the last

23     paragraph that I'm interested in.  I would like to read this in English

24     so that we may control things in Serbian as well.  The third and the

25     fourth line from the bottom.

Page 31273

 1             [In English] First we went to the police station to pick up

 2     Hakija Hasanefendic, the local police inspector.  When we came back on

 3     site we walked around the site.  When we came back we found out that one

 4     woman was dead and supposedly some others.  I saw some legs under bricks

 5     with camouflage trousers and boots."

 6             [Interpretation] Is this what you also received by way of

 7     information?

 8        A.   This is the information that I received.  He told me that he saw

 9     the legs of a soldier in uniform with his own eyes.  It says here "I saw

10     some legs."

11        Q.   Thank you.  He also mentioned that in his evidence, I'm talking

12     about Mr. Overgard, obviously.

13             Do you remember you were shown here an order dated 6 April 1995.

14     That order was issued by General Milosevic?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And that order was in connection with that rocket being fired?

17        A.   Yes.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now take a look at

19     65 ter 16449.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Let's look at the following page.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that the document is only

23     two pages long and -- no, this is not the document.  I apologise.  There

24     may be a mistake.  Can we look at D02412 dated the 4th of April, i.e.,

25     the same day.  D02412 -- I apologise.  It is 17 if this is the one, 1217.

Page 31274

 1     I apologise for the confusion that I created with the numbers.  That's

 2     not the number.  Instead can we look at P782.  P782.  It's not P, it's D,

 3     D [In English] Defence exhibit [Interpretation] 782.  That's it but we

 4     are waiting for the translation.

 5        Q.   Colonel, sir, could you please take a look at the date of this

 6     document and what was issued on that date by the command of the Sarajevo

 7     Corps?  The date and the title.

 8        A.   Yes, we are looking at 4 April 1995 and it is an order for

 9     artillery number 1/95.

10        Q.   Thank you.  You don't have to read it through but could you

11     please take a look at the contents of this document.  Why are Muslim

12     forces on Treskavica mentioned?  You will find it in the second paragraph

13     of bullet point 2.

14        A.   Some of the elements of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and other

15     corps such as Herzegovina and Drina Corps should organise defence in the

16     respective zones of their responsibility in order to stop the enemy and

17     keep them in their positions and then to launch counter-attacks on the

18     axis that are mentioned here.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Can we go to the following page, please.  To speed

20     things along I will read.  It says here:

21             "Tasks" --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters do not see that on the screen

23     and the accused is reading too fast.

24             JUDGE KWON:  The interpreters were not able to keep up with your

25     speed.

Page 31275

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Okay.  Let's simplify things.  Colonel, sir, these aerial bombs,

 4     are they part of artillery?

 5        A.   No.  The name itself, aerial bombs, implies that aerial bombs are

 6     not artillery.  However, if modified one may say that they will fall

 7     under the category of artillery.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please look at the fourth bullet point.

 9     What about the first paragraph, what kind of defence is this?  What does

10     it consist of?  And what kind of an enemy infantry advance is this

11     referred to?  Where is that?  Where are the ends of defence with respect

12     to Hrasnica and Vojkovici?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, often your legal adviser objected to

14     various compound questions.  Ask one by one.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Let's simplify things then.  What kind of attacks are these and

17     on what axis?  What does this document talk about?

18        A.   Mr. President, this document talks about attacks along the Muslim

19     axis on the slopes of Igman and Bjelasnica in the direction of the

20     Serbian territory, so we're talking about the areas which were under our

21     control after Lukavac 93 operation and those areas after the agreement

22     was signed were controlled by UNPROFOR.  However, it seems that the

23     control was not very good because the Muslim forces benefitted from the

24     withdrawal of our own forces and under the protection of UNPROFOR they

25     wanted to return the territories that they had lost.

Page 31276

 1        Q.   Thank you.  I will just read two bullets.

 2             "Neutralise the activities of enemy artillery and mortars."

 3             And the following one:

 4             "After the firing positions are taken, correct -- proceed to make

 5     fire adjustment with the battery's main artillery pieces and direct fire

 6     artillery pieces upon the first detected target."

 7             Did the Muslim forces in Hrasnica in contact with your brigade

 8     and the 2nd Sarajevo Brigade have artillery?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And what about Sokolovic Kolonija along the entire length of the

11     line of contact, was that the same case?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   You were asked whether the Army of Republika Srpska closed the

14     airport to humanitarian air-lifts and did they do the same with the

15     roads.  What were the main and the most common causes for the closing of

16     roads and airports?

17        A.   According to what I know, the most common reasons for closing the

18     roads and all the other means of communications were Muslim offensives.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember if there was a cease-fire in the area

20     of responsibility of, or rather, in the Sarajevo area in late 1994.  That

21     cease-fire was agreed upon in a spectacular manner, as it were?

22        A.   Yes.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up D1124.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   What was the attitude of the Army of Republika Srpska and how did

Page 31277

 1     the cease-fire reflect on civilians?

 2        A.   I did not understand your question, Mr. President.

 3        Q.   In a nutshell, how did cease-fires reflect on everyday life?

 4        A.   All the cease-fires that were signed were used by civilians to

 5     make purchases to go to the market-place.  They visited each other.  To

 6     put it simply, during the periods of cease-fire life returned to normal.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go to the following page.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   This is Akashi's telegram to Annan which was sent on the 7th of

10     April.  The latter was at that time the under-secretary for peacekeeping

11     operations.  I am going to read in English.  There's no translation.  You

12     will receive it through the headphones.

13             [In English] "As with the airport routes ... consent of the

14     parties is the key.  Without this the only other option is enforcement.

15     It must be emphasized that during the early part of the cessation of

16     hostilities agreement, life for the average resident in Sarajevo improved

17     considerably.  The airport routes were opened, tram services were

18     running, and utilities were beginning to be repaired and maintained.  All

19     progress came to a halt due to the refusal of the Bosnian side to attend

20     the central joint commission designed to negotiate, amongst other things,

21     the status of Sarajevo.  The flagrant disregard of cessation of

22     hostilities agreement by the BH when they launched two military

23     offensives in Travnik and Stolice areas also contributed considerably to

24     the worsening situation in Sarajevo.

25             "Additionally, the killing of the two Serbian children by sniper

Page 31278

 1     fire within Sector Sarajevo influenced and hardened BSA attitudes."

 2             [Interpretation] So after life recovered, as it were, how did

 3     this activity of the BH army affect the situation regarding humanitarian

 4     convoys and transport?

 5        A.   Certainly in such situations when there was a cease-fire

 6     agreement that had been signed, supplies became more intensive both in

 7     terms of the city and the Serb settlements.  More humanitarian aid

 8     arrived, but I must say now that often it was abused in the sense of

 9     ending up in military warehouses.  I have information to the effect that

10     convoys that arrived during cease-fires ended up in logistics bases of

11     the BH army from where this aid was distributed to soldiers, whereas

12     civilians could buy it at the Sarajevo markets, Markale, Grbavica, and so

13     on.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Madam Edgerton suggested to you that roads had been

15     closed off even from the month of April.  Is it correct, or rather, do

16     you know how the humanitarian aid flowed and is it correct that the roads

17     had been sealed off as of April?

18        A.   I do not recall while I was brigade commander that roads would be

19     closed for more than a few days.  In most cases solutions were found

20     because we understood the need to have the civilian population supplied

21     with food.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] D1167, could we have that, please.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Since there's no translation I'm going to read it out myself.

Page 31279

 1     It's Annan writing to Akashi about what he knew.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  I'm actually -- Your Honours, this is re-direct

 4     examination and I recognise that I haven't given Dr. Karadzic an

 5     opportunity to ask this question, but this has been a progressive thing,

 6     and my submission is we're actually on the edge of improper re-direct

 7     examination because Dr. Karadzic has been spending a great deal of time

 8     now reading out evidence rather than effectively seeking the witness's

 9     evidence on discrete points that have been raised in the

10     cross-examination.

11             JUDGE KWON:  I find it to be a very fair comment, so why don't

12     you put a foundational question first and then if necessary you can visit

13     the documents.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'll do my best.  This

15     skill still seems to escape me.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Colonel, it was suggested to you that from April onwards all

18     supplies had been cut off.  There's a document here which you cannot read

19     in Serbian, unfortunately, it's dated the 17th of April.  And what it

20     says is the complete opposite, that the UNHCR achieved quite a bit.  Does

21     this correspond to your own experience?

22        A.   Yes.

23             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  It seems like Dr. Karadzic may not have understood

Page 31280

 1     the point and what we arrived at was effectively a leading question in

 2     re-direct.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Absolutely.

 4             "... what it says is the complete opposite, that the UNHCR

 5     achieved quite a bit.  Does this to your own experience."

 6             This sounds as if you are giving evidence, Mr. Karadzic.

 7                           [Defence counsel confer]

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I will have to find a way to

 9     challenge this because documents do actually dispute what the Prosecution

10     had suggested --

11             JUDGE KWON:  As Ms. Edgerton indicated, you can use this passage

12     in your final brief, given that this is already in evidence.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'll do my best.

14     Excellency, I would kindly ask you to consider the matter since we've

15     admitted all the transcripts of government meeting, Assembly meetings,

16     Presidency meetings.  Also, we should admit all the approvals for convoys

17     every two or three days.  There are these documents that allow convoys,

18     approve them, and that is in stark contrast to what has been suggested.

19     If necessary, we can submit this in writing too, if the Trial Chamber

20     believes that would be appropriate.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Colonel, what kind of orders did you receive from me and from the

23     top echelons of power as far as convoys are concerned?

24        A.   I said yesterday that the system of convoys passing through the

25     area of the Ilidza Brigade was quite clear to all of us and as a matter

Page 31281

 1     of fact we got a few letters defining that.  So convoys were announced

 2     and we would let them go in accordance with these announcements.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D283, could I call that up now,

 4     please.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Can you tell the Trial Chamber what this order of mine relates

 7     to?  You don't have to read it out.  Just deal with the essence.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Again, yes.

10             Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  -- I would submit this is not proper re-direct

12     examination at all, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson, would you like to reply?

14             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, I don't see anything wrong at all with

15     this -- doing it the way he's doing it.  She's brought up in her

16     cross-examination the issue of obstruction of humanitarian aid.  The

17     witness has been asked a foundational question that he's aware of the

18     instructions for foundational aid.  And now Dr. Karadzic is going to ask

19     this witness how this document tallies with his understanding of the

20     situation.  And if he says that it does and explains how, it can be

21     admitted, which is a perfectly good way to conduct a re-examination.

22             JUDGE KWON:  I haven't read the content of this document.

23             MR. ROBINSON:  If you look at number 1 --

24             JUDGE KWON:  But did he receive this order from Mr. Karadzic?

25             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, that's a good question.  You can ask him

Page 31282

 1     that or if he was aware of it in some way.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I wanted -- I told Mr. Karadzic to put some

 3     foundational question before putting the document first directly to the

 4     witness.

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  But he did.  He asked a foundational question and

 6     the witness said he was familiar with the policy concerning that convoys

 7     shouldn't been obstructed.  Haven't gotten that answer, I don't see

 8     anything wrong with him having put the witness -- I don't see that the

 9     Prosecution in their direct examinations when the Prosecution witnesses

10     were being called were precluded from asking -- from presenting a

11     document to a witness in these circumstances.

12             JUDGE KWON:  But take a look at the question Dr. Karadzic posed

13     as a matter of fact.  I quote:

14             "Can you tell the Trial Chamber what this order of mine relates

15     to?  You don't have to read it out.  Just deal with the essence."

16             He doesn't -- he didn't ask whether he knew of the order at the

17     time or whatever.  He just wanted to read -- wanted the witness to read

18     and then confirm with the document.

19             MR. ROBINSON:  But look at the question on line 19 right before

20     that.

21             "Colonel, what kind of orders did you receive from me and from

22     the top echelons of power as far as the convoys are concerned?"

23     That's --

24             JUDGE KWON:  That's a proper question.

25             MR. ROBINSON:  That's the preliminary question.  Having then --

Page 31283

 1     the witness said that we received information, now Dr. Karadzic is asking

 2     him:  Is this the type of information you received.  What's wrong with

 3     that?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  In my opinion, I'm speaking for myself, he should

 5     have asked whether the witness knew about this order first --

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  Even if --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  -- instead of asking to confirm the document.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  But even if the witness doesn't know about this

 9     order, if this order is consistent with the instructions that the witness

10     believed he'd received, it should be [Overlapping speakers] --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Then he can put that question after the first

12     question.

13             MR. ROBINSON:  Okay.  I -- honestly I think he did the best -- I

14     think he did it within -- well within acceptable limits, but if you want

15     it done a different way, I don't see any reason why not.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE KWON:  Please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Colonel, sir, this order of mine, how did it reflect on the

20     orders or instructions that you received from the corps?

21        A.   Orders from the corps command were very specific, that is to say,

22     convoys of humanitarian aid should be allowed to pass according to

23     customary procedure.  As I said yesterday, it had been defined clearly

24     and there were never any problems in that regard.

25        Q.   Thank you.  The orders of the president, did the corps convey

Page 31284

 1     them to units?

 2        A.   Important orders like this one were.  I am familiar with this

 3     order but not directly in this form.  Rather, what I received were the

 4     obligations that I had as brigade commander on the basis of this order of

 5     yours, and then this became part of the regular procedure that I've

 6     already discussed.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell me something, I need this for a

 8     particular document, how the other side behaved towards us during

 9     Christian holidays?

10        A.   Well, during Christian holidays, we raised the combat-readiness

11     of our units because most often fire was opened at our positions then.

12     That would be their greeting card sent to us.  Since the lines were very

13     close that is actually what they would say to us, "We wish you a happy

14     holiday," with gun-fire.  We received that but we did not the respond

15     with fire because that was not our custom.

16        Q.   Thank you.  How did we behave during Islamic holidays?

17        A.   On the basis of instructions that we received from you --

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Okay, okay --

19             JUDGE KWON:  Let's move on.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3470, I would like to call that

21     up then.

22             May I tender the previous document?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Was it not admitted yet?  Yes, we'll admit it.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Document receives number D2619, Your Honours.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3470 then, please.  Thank you.

Page 31285

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   You said a moment ago that my orders were sent on to the units.

 3     Does it also say here sent to all units and can you read out the first

 4     sentence?

 5        A.   I can.

 6             "The Army of Republika Srpska" --

 7        Q.   No, no, please.  The preamble before that.

 8        A.   "Submit to all units.

 9             "We hereby forward the integral text of the order of the

10     president of the RS number 01-464/94, dated the 13th of March, 1994."

11        Q.   Thank you.  And then my order follows and that's under quotation

12     marks.  What does this relate to?  Could you please interpret the first,

13     second, and third paragraphs.  It hasn't been translated because I didn't

14     know that this would be challenged.

15        A.   This refers to your order that we exercise maximum restraint in

16     terms of responding to provocations of the Muslim army.

17        Q.   When?  On what occasion?

18        A.   During the Muslim holiday, Bajram, the 13th and the 14th of

19     March.

20        Q.   And what is the second paragraph --

21             JUDGE KWON:  Before you answer the question, yes, Ms. Edgerton.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  I stood because questions related to the holidays

23     were really not something that was a subject of cross-examination in any

24     regard, Your Honours, and this line of questioning and this document

25     seems to be derived from that.  And I think that's not appropriate

Page 31286

 1     re-direct.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Can you assist us, Mr. Robinson?

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  I totally agree with

 4     Ms. Edgerton that this issue of the holidays is outside of the scope of

 5     the cross-examination.  I think the document is admissible for well

 6     within the scope of her cross-examination concerning why they were

 7     firing, but the aspect of the document that Dr. Karadzic has highlighted

 8     I don't think arises from the re-direct -- from the cross-examination.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Robinson.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Since there is no translation,

11     Excellency, I would like to ask the Colonel about this.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   The first paragraph is all right.  It has to do with the Bajram

14     holiday.  And what about the other two paragraphs?  Could the convoy --

15     what is the essence of my order that is being conveyed to you by

16     Milosevic?

17        A.   You repeated several times that we should let convoys pass

18     through in accordance with the procedure that we received.  And it says

19     here that we should not create any problems, but rather that we should

20     observe the procedure involved.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted for

23     identification?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll mark it for identification.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D3470 receives number D2620,

Page 31287

 1     Your Honours, MFI'd.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The last document, although there

 3     are many of them --

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   You said in response to a question from Ms. Edgerton that it was

 6     not only Republika Srpska or your brigade that stopped convoys, that

 7     perhaps convoys were stopped in Herceg-Bosna.  Do you remember saying

 8     that?

 9        A.   Yes.  I have to recall that Herceg-Bosna bordered the

10     Igman Brigade and was perhaps 10 kilometres away from my positions.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we get 1D3170.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Can Mr. Karadzic kindly slow down.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, you are asked to slow down by the

14     interpreters.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3170.  It exists in Serbian and

16     in English.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Can you tell us the date and who is writing to whom -- all right.

19     We see that.  The Main Staff of the Republika Srpska army is addressing

20     the command of the UNPROFOR.  Look at the last paragraph.  Read it,

21     please.

22        A.   This is in support of the fact that the Muslim side by

23     obstructing the convoys they had used for the past three years is trying

24     to create the impression that --

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page.  In

Page 31288

 1     English that's the second paragraph.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Go on, please.

 4        A.   Could we zoom in, please.

 5        Q.   This supports the fact that the Muslim side preventing convoy

 6     movement on the route which has been used for three years wants to make

 7     you believe that it is impossible to use the aforementioned route?

 8        A.   And it says specifically that the route via Igman is used, which

 9     we will never accept.

10        Q.   Skip the next and then read from "our side."

11        A.   "Our side will take all necessary measures" -- can you help me

12     because I can't read this copy.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we zoom in.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   I'll read the first sentence.  We don't have to read the rest.

16             "Our side will take all necessary measures in order to provide

17     full safety to the convoys moving through our territory as well as the

18     measures shortening and hastening the procedure for getting clearance.

19     We are surprised that you are blaming the VRS for turning convoys back to

20     Muslim-held territory."

21             Is it consistent with what you said yesterday that the other side

22     was stopping convoys too?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   What could be their motivation to stop convoys and why was it not

25     acceptable to us that convoys should go via Igman?

Page 31289

 1        A.   When you asked about their possible motivation, did you mean the

 2     HVO?

 3        Q.   I meant the adversary.

 4        A.   They wanted to portray us as unco-operative, as wishing to

 5     exhaust their population, subject them to attrition, and we did not want

 6     the Igman road used because it was the route of supply to their forces.

 7     The road Sarajevo-Ilidza-Hadzici was the one used before.  They wanted to

 8     use the UNPROFOR and get them to use the other road so that they could

 9     smuggle in their own equipment.  I had information that they even painted

10     over two of their APCs into blue and we did not want to shoot at them

11     because we did not want to take any risks.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Document receives number D2621, Your Honours.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Thank you, Colonel, for your evidence.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.  I have

18     no further questions.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE KWON:  Colonel Radojcic, that concludes your evidence.  On

21     behalf of the Chamber, I would like to thank you for your coming to

22     The Hague to give it.  Now you are free to go.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was my pleasure and honour.

24                           [The witness withdrew]

25             JUDGE KWON:  Given the time, shall we take an early break?

Page 31290

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  In Your Honour's hands.  If we go with the witness

 2     summary now, we can just play through until the normal break.  My

 3     colleague, Ms. West, will be dealing with that witness.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Then let's bring in the next witness.

 5             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, if I may, just two brief issues.  I'm

 6     not sure if you want to do this in the presence of the witness.  The

 7     first is the warning of which I have not advised the parties of.

 8     However, after reflection, I would like that advisement given to the

 9     witness.

10             The second is there are five associated exhibits to which I have

11     an objection.  I'm not sure if it's more efficient to do this now or

12     later.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, why don't we do that.  I will hear from you.

14     Yes, please proceed.

15             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Your Honour, I'm focusing

16     on paragraphs --

17             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  The witness we are talking about is

18     Mr. Bambarez?

19             MS. WEST:  That is correct.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Correct.  Yes.

21             MS. WEST:  Your Honour, there are a total of 11 associated

22     exhibits and I just have objections to five, and the focus of those five

23     are paragraphs 8, 9, and 10.  These are all --

24             JUDGE KWON:  What was the number of the 65 ter?

25             MS. WEST:  These go from 1D8544 then -45 -46, and then 1D8554 and

Page 31291

 1     1D8555.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             MS. WEST:  And those are five photographs.  They are photographs

 4     of buildings in Sarajevo, a few of which --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, you may proceed.

 6             MS. WEST:  Thank you.  A few of which have some markings on it

 7     that were made by the witness.  There are a few reasons why I think they

 8     should not be included as associated exhibits.  The first is they are,

 9     for the most part, undated.  And I understand that the defence in this

10     case, as regards these particular photos, is that there was a Bosnian

11     Muslim sniper on the building.  It would be important to know the date of

12     these photographs because it's not clear to me to which scheduled

13     incidents these photographs are attributed.

14             Secondly, the paragraphs 8, 9, and 10 are inconsistent with each

15     other as regards to the photographs.  So, for example, paragraph 8 notes

16     in one of these photographs that a building marked as number 1 did not

17     exist.  But then we go to paragraph 9 and it speaks of this 1D8545, which

18     I believe refers to the same building that they refer to in the previous

19     paragraph, and they say part of the building did not exist.  But then

20     when I looked at their 92 ter package from a few days ago under 8545, it

21     says a photograph showing the building not present during the war.  So

22     the paragraphs in and of themselves are mutually inconsistent.  That

23     coupled with a lacking of the dates -- and thirdly, it's just very

24     difficult to understand what exactly the witness means when you read

25     these three paragraphs.  I had -- well, it's still unclear to me exactly

Page 31292

 1     what it means.

 2             So as regards the other exhibits, I have no problem; but as

 3     regards these five exhibits, I would ask that they be led live.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, the question is whether these

 6     are made -- are -- whether they require the exhibits to be admitted to

 7     comprehend the statement.  It clearly does, otherwise these three

 8     paragraphs are meaningless.  Any issues as to the unclarity of those are

 9     something that can be dealt with in cross-examination, just like any

10     other unclear portions of a witness's statement.  So the points that she

11     raises are things that she should take up in her cross-examination but

12     don't go to the issue of whether these are indispensable parts of the

13     actual statement, which they clearly are.

14             JUDGE KWON:  But usually would you agree, would you not, that in

15     order to understand what the markings would mean you need to hear live to

16     a certain extent?  It's very difficult to follow to understand the

17     meaning of markings made by the witness without his explanation.

18             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  And if you - after having

19     read those paragraphs - feel that you would like those to be led live

20     because you don't believe it's clear, then we can definitely do it for

21     that reason.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

23                           [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]

24             JUDGE KWON:  I found this to be a perfect timing for a break and

25     then we'll have a break for half an hour and resume at five to 11.00.

Page 31293

 1                           --- Recess taken at 10.22 a.m.

 2                           [The witness entered court]

 3                           --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness take the solemn declaration,

 5     please.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 7     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 8                           WITNESS:  ZELJKO BAMBAREZ

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Bambarez.  Please be seated and make

11     yourself comfortable.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Before you start giving evidence, I would like to

14     draw your attention to a particular rule here at the Tribunal.  Under

15     this rule, Rule 90(E), you may object to answering a question from the

16     Prosecution or the accused or from the Judges if you believe that your

17     answer will incriminate you.  When I say "incriminate," I mean that

18     something you say may amount to an admission of your guilt for a criminal

19     offence or could provide evidence that you have committed an offence.

20     However, even if you think your answer will incriminate you and you do

21     not wish to answer the question, the Tribunal has the power to compel you

22     to answer the question.  But in such a case the Tribunal will make sure

23     that your testimony compelled in such a way shall not be used as evidence

24     in other case against you for any offence other than false testimony.  Do

25     you understand what I have just told you, sir?

Page 31294

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 3             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue -- please proceed.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Bambarez.

 7        A.   Good morning, Mr. President.

 8        Q.   Did you give a statement to my Defence team?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I call up in e-court 1D6904.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Can you see that statement on the screen?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Have you read that statement and signed it?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   We need to make a pause between questions and answers to enable

17     the interpreters to capture all of our words so they get into the record.

18     Does this statement reflect accurately everything you've said?

19        A.   Yes, it contains accurately everything I stated.

20        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to put to you the same questions today as

21     when you were giving your statement, would your answers be essentially

22     the same?

23        A.   They would be essentially the same.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I offer this

Page 31295

 1     package and I will elicit viva voce evidence on the three photographs

 2     that the Prosecution has referred to and that the witness has marked.  I

 3     will do that after reading the summary.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. West referred to five photos.  Do you mean all

 5     of them?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We will explain paragraphs 8 and 10

 7     of Mr. Bambarez's statement, or rather, the matters covered by those

 8     paragraphs and we will see about the photographs.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Can I take this opportunity to express the

10     Chamber's general preference to hear live when the witness is dealing

11     with maps with his or her own markings.  In particular, the two

12     photographs dealt with in para 10 with 65 ter numbers 1D8554 and 1D8555,

13     given that they are not familiar with us and the Chamber is not

14     familiar -- aware of the provenance of those two photos, the Chamber was

15     of the opinion that those should be led live with the witness.  But it's

16     even better for you to lead with the other remaining three documents --

17     photos as well.

18             One further thing is that the photo dealt with in para 11,

19     1D8551, allegedly being the picture of Baba Stijene feature, I have not

20     seen the picture yet but I do not see the point of tendering that photo

21     at all.  We have seen a lot of photos of that place and the witness said

22     that there is no -- there were no snipers in that position.  Is it not

23     sufficient by the statement itself?  So if there's a point in

24     specifically of tendering that photo, you need to lead live with the

25     witness as well.  Having said that, I would like you to proceed.

Page 31296

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I should now like to

 2     read out the summary of Mr. Bambarez's statement in English and then I

 3     will lead the evidence.

 4             [In English] Zeljko Bambarez is an economic technician by

 5     profession from Centar municipality, Sarajevo.

 6             When the war began the people in his settlement organised

 7     themselves, forming a unit of approximately 25 men establishing a line of

 8     disengagement in Zlatiste in front of their settlement which was 99

 9     per cent Serbian.  There was no established military unit at that time.

10     After the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps was formed, he was appointed commander

11     of the 2nd platoon of the 2nd Command [sic] of the 3rd Battalion in the

12     Romanija Infantry Brigade.  In June 1993 his battalion became part of the

13     1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade.  During 1994, Mr. Bambarez spent eight

14     months in Grbavica.  His unit comprised local men and the command

15     structure did not include any professional officers.

16             In his statement, Zeljko Bambarez describes the line of

17     separation between the VRS and the BH army as well as the positions held

18     by the two armies.  He likewise explained the use of artillery and

19     snipers in his unit as well as their use by the BH army and the passing

20     of humanitarian aid in his area of responsibility as well as the status

21     of electricity and water-supply.

22             In June the 8th -- 9th, 1992, they were tasked with, his own

23     unit, to liberate the Lukavica-Pale communication route.  This route had

24     been cut off by Muslim forces which attacked the witness's platoon.

25     They -- Bambarez's unit managed to successfully liberate the route by

Page 31297

 1     17th of June, 1992, and they remained in these positions until 31st of

 2     October of the same year.  This corridor was being used to transport

 3     humanitarian aid to the Muslim side.  Zeljko Bambarez's unit secured the

 4     route and did not cause any problem or obstructions to such aid.

 5             The aforementioned route became at the time unsafe since it was

 6     the only road connecting Pale and Sarajevo.  Sometimes around October

 7     1992 approximately 50 civilians residing in Serbian territory were killed

 8     by Muslim armed forces while travelling along the route.  To avoid any

 9     further losses of civilian lives, the witness and his platoon tried to

10     move the line of disengagement but failed to do so, losing five men in

11     the process.  The witness and his platoon remained at the same position

12     until the end of the war.

13             Zeljko Bambarez also recalls that the mortar positions in his

14     company was in the same spot throughout the war and that it was never

15     within the sectors of Miljevici and Studenkovici or along the road

16     leading to the -- to Studenkovici.  In fact, there were never any mortar

17     or artillery positions whatsoever in either of the aforementioned

18     sectors.  Furthermore, his platoon never had snipers and his unit was

19     only involved in defence operations, with the sole exceptions of the

20     failed attempt to move the line of disengagement in the Lukavica-Pale

21     corridor.  This was the only non-purely defensive operation action in

22     which his unit was involved.  They were instructed to save ammunition and

23     refrain from firing for no reason.

24             Zeljko Bambarez explains that never he or any other members of

25     his unit, or their subordinated or superior commands, intended to cause

Page 31298

 1     civilian casualties or terrorise civilians in the territory under Muslim

 2     control or attack means of public transportation.  They never received or

 3     issued any verbal or written orders to that effect.  Even in those

 4     occasions where civilians who remained in the territories under Muslim

 5     control were forced to dig trenches for the opposing Muslim forces and

 6     whose forced labour posed a direct threat to the unit's position of

 7     Mr. Bambarez, his unit followed orders not to fire at civilians.

 8             On the contrary, civilians within territory under control of

 9     Serbian authorities lived in constant fear due to the attacks by Muslim

10     forces.  The first civilian casualty occurred during an enemy shell in

11     1992.  His name was Nedjo Granic, a mentally retarded civilian unfit for

12     combat.  Likewise, a young man was killed by a Muslim sniper while in a

13     car near Knjeginac.  Furthermore, several Serb civilians in Sarajevo had

14     to flee the area.  Zeljko Bambarez also explains that during the war they

15     already had information that civilian features in Sarajevo were being

16     misused and abused by military purposes, such as the Kosevo Hospital, the

17     military hospital, and the city hall, as well as the civilian houses.

18             Likewise, water-supply for the Muslim part of the city from

19     Jahorina Bistrica also passed through the Serbian zone of responsibility,

20     supply which was never obstructed.  On the contrary, the Serbian

21     settlement of Grlica near Hrasnica was deprived of water-supply until the

22     end of the war due to a blockage by Muslim forces situated in the Muslim

23     part of Ilidza.

24             Zeljko Bambarez explains that they set up a barrier with wooden

25     planks, piled-up dirt, and blankets to thwart the attacks by enemy

Page 31299

 1     snipers.  On one occasion, Zeljko Bambarez was targeted by a sniper

 2     belonging to the Muslim forces while digging a trench and the round hit

 3     the shovel and pierced it.  Enemy snipers also killed an UNPROFOR soldier

 4     in Zeljko Bambarez's zone of responsibility and this UN soldier was

 5     transporting humanitarian aid for the Muslim side.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   And now I would like to ask you to look at some photos that you

 8     have already marked.  Those paragraphs have to do with your own

 9     paragraphs, primarily paragraph 8 in your statement.  Do you have it in

10     front of you?

11        A.   Yes, I do.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, I think we forgot to give an exhibit

13     number to his 92 ter statement.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D6904 receives number D2622,

15     Your Honours.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we now look at

17     1D8544.  Can we zoom in on the lower part, the central part of the photo,

18     where some markings have already been made.  Thank you.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Mr. Bambarez, could you please tell us what is it that you have

21     marked in this photo?

22        A.   In this photo I have marked two buildings.  When I moved to

23     Grbavica which was the zone of responsibility of my platoon in Grbavica.

24     The first one is a red building.  Can I perhaps point to it on the

25     screen, this is the red building.

Page 31300

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can Mr. Bambarez please be assisted

 2     with the photo.  He should have shown the MEIS [as interpreted] in a

 3     different photo.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see it now.  It is the

 5     notorious red building in Grbavica, the MIS.  I marked the positions of

 6     the Serb forces as well as the position of the Muslim forces in that

 7     building.  That building had five entrances, two were held by the Muslim

 8     forces and three were held by the Serbian forces.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   What about letter M, what does it refer to?

11        A.   Muslim forces.

12        Q.   And the letter S?

13        A.   The Serb forces.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please tell us what is the building on the

15     right-hand side?

16        A.   The one with the blue roof?

17        Q.   Number 2.

18        A.   Yes, number 2.  That's -- that was a building that was destroyed

19     during the war.  Its appearance was not as it is now in this photo.  The

20     roof has been repaired.  It was a building in front of our positions in

21     the direction of the Unioninvest building.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Did that building prevent the view from the Muslim

23     positions onto the streets across the river Miljacka?

24        A.   No, it did not.  You can see that even in this shape and form

25     that building is lower than the red building that was occupied by the

Page 31301

 1     Muslims, and during the war it was even lower than that.  So there was an

 2     unobstructed view during the war even better than it is now.

 3        Q.   What is it that you marked by number 1?

 4        A.   Number 1 is a different building, the so-called skyscraper that

 5     was held by my platoon in the direction of the Unioninvest building.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness and the accused please be

 7     asked to make pauses between questions and answers.  Thank you.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   What did the building look like during the war?

10             JUDGE KWON:  Could I remind you again that -- to put a pause

11     between the questions and answers for the benefit of the interpreters and

12     slow down.

13             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   What did that building look like during the war, that building

16     that you marked by number 1?  Was its shape and form the same?

17        A.   The building marked by number 1 was not of that same shape.  It

18     was lower by some two floors.  The building marked by number 1 during the

19     war was approximately as high as the red building which I marked by

20     letters S and M.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Did it prevent a visual contact between the Muslim

22     positions in the red building and the streets across the river Miljacka?

23        A.   No, no.  Not the height that it was during the war because it was

24     almost at the same level if not lower than the red building that was

25     controlled by the Muslim forces.

Page 31302

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be assisted

 2     with the marking something with an electronic pen.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Could you please tell us what is the street in the projection of

 5     these building on the Muslim side?

 6        A.   Do you mean the street that I'm now marking?

 7        Q.   Yes, that's the one.  Can you put number 3 next to that line.

 8        A.   Yes, I've put number 3.  I was not familiar with these little

 9     streets in Sarajevo before the war.  I didn't know their old names.

10     After the war, all of those streets have changed their names and none of

11     them is called the same as they were before the war.  I was familiar with

12     Titova and Vojvoda Radomir Putnika Street, so the two main streets in the

13     city, and the other two that I used to pass along often.  I don't know

14     their names.  I read somewhere that today they're called

15     Djure Danicica [phoen] and Zmjan Bosna [phoen], but I really can't say

16     for a fact what their names indeed are.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Towards the bottom and the right-hand corner can you

18     put today's date and your signature.

19        A.   [Marks]

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit marked by witness receives number D2623,

24     Your Honours.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D08546.

Page 31303

 1             JUDGE KWON:  There seems to be some technical problem in saving

 2     the photo.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is still on the screen.  Can it

 4     be --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  We are still experiencing some technical

 6     difficulties.  Shall ...

 7             Could we do without the markings he made today?  I think that's

 8     possible.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, we can, Excellency, as was

10     originally planned.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  If it is okay with you, then we'll admit

12     1D8544 as Exhibit D2623.  Let's proceed.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I would like to call up

14     1D08546.  Thank you.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Mr. Bambarez, after a break can you tell us what you have marked

17     in this photo?

18        A.   In this photo I have marked a building that has been refurbished.

19     After the war one floor was added to it and the sloping roof.  During the

20     war that building was not as high as you can see it now and it was not of

21     such a lovely appearance, obviously.

22        Q.   Can you tell us what you see in the background starting from the

23     yellow cube-shaped building to the right.

24        A.   From the yellow cube-shaped building?

25        Q.   From that yellow building towards the Miljacka.

Page 31304

 1        A.   From the Holiday Inn hotel you can see the Executive Council and

 2     in the background you can see the two buildings belonging to Unioninvest.

 3     Before the war they were called Momo and Zel [phoen].

 4        Q.   Where were the Muslim positions with respect to the building that

 5     you have marked?  Do you see any part of the red building.

 6        A.   No, in this photo you can't see any part of the red building.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes can this be admitted?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, next exhibit.  Exhibit D2624.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  And now I would like to

10     call up 1D08555.  I apologise.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Can you tell us how many floors do you see in this photo, the

13     ground floor and six upper floors, right?  We can all see that, can't we?

14             MS. WEST:  Objection.  I just don't see it, so -- otherwise this

15     is a perfectly inappropriate question.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  We're in a haste, I agree,

17     but we -- I'm trying to move things along.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Mr. Bambarez, can you tell us what this photo depicts?

20        A.   This is the same building that we saw in the previous photo but

21     this was taken during the war.  That was the building as it was during

22     the war.  It has been refurbished since then, but it is of the same shape

23     as the photo -- as the building that we saw before.

24        Q.   Can you tell us something about the number of floors that the

25     building had during the war and the number of floors that it has received

Page 31305

 1     after the war?

 2        A.   As I've already told you, that building, as we can see it now,

 3     was a bit lower than the red building, the building that I marked with

 4     letters MNS.  After the war when it was renovated, we can see that it has

 5     become taller than it was during the war because now its height is

 6     different than it was during the war.  The building is now higher than it

 7     was during the war.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

10             JUDGE KWON:  Please ask the witness whether he knows who took

11     this picture and from what angle and how he believed that this is the

12     identical building we saw in the previous exhibit, et cetera.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Mr. Bambarez, how do you know that this is one and the same

15     building?

16        A.   Well, as I was looking at the previous photo where the red

17     building was marked and the position of this building taken from that

18     angle, you can see it's one and the same building but in a different

19     shape and form.

20        Q.   And during the war did you ever come to this place?

21        A.   I entered the building because the positions of the Army of

22     Republika Srpska were in this building.  But we could not enter it from

23     the side from which the photo was taken.  We could enter it from the

24     side, from the block of buildings that were there.

25        Q.   Do you know who took this photo?

Page 31306

 1        A.   I don't.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, is this enough

 3     to admit this photo into evidence?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll admit this.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D8555 receives number D2625,

 6     Your Honours.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I would like to call up

 8     yet another photo which is 1D08554, 1D08554.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Can you please tell us what this photo depicts and what you have

11     marked on it.

12        A.   This photo was taken from the Muslim side.  We can see the

13     Vrbanja bridge, the building of Unioninvest, and we can see the

14     skyscraper building where the Army of Republika Srpska had its positions.

15        Q.   Who was it who held the white building of Unioninvest?

16        A.   That white building did not look the same during the war.  It was

17     a newly built building.  There was only a concrete construction and it

18     was under the control of Muslim forces.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted, Excellencies?

21             JUDGE KWON:  So this photo was taken after the war?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll admit it as well.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D8554 receives number D2626,

25     Your Honours.

Page 31307

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We will not show the Baba Stijene

 2     photo because all it depicts is the rock and not a view from the rock.

 3     We will find another opportunity to show that photo.  I have no further

 4     questions for this witness.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  And I take it you are not tendering other picture of

 6     blue roof, 1D8545, which is referred to in para 9?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise, I thought it was not

 8     in dispute.  Obviously I would like to enter it.  Can we call up 1D08545.

 9     Thank you.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Could you tell us what you see in the photo and what you have

12     marked on it.

13        A.   The photo depicts on the left-hand side the renovated building

14     which didn't look the same during the war.  In the background you can see

15     the Unioninvest building.  As I've already told you, during the war it

16     was a new concrete construction, so the building looked different during

17     the war.  The building with the blue roof was damaged during the war and

18     it did not have the same blue roof construction as you see now.

19        Q.   The position from which the photo was taken, during the war did

20     it command a view of the streets across the river Miljacka?  Where were

21     Muslims forces in respect of that building?

22        A.   In respect of that building, the Muslim forces were in the red

23     building which I marked.  That building was held by both Muslims --

24     Muslim and Serb forces.  And I believe that this photo was taken from the

25     red building, from the part that was held by Muslim forces.

Page 31308

 1        Q.   And as for the photos that you see in this -- as for the

 2     buildings that you see in the photo, where were Muslim forces?

 3        A.   I know that some of the Muslim forces were in the Unioninvest

 4     building, and as for the rest of the positions I don't know where Muslim

 5     positions were in the depth of the territory.

 6        Q.   With regard to the fact that a new part was added to this

 7     building, during the war did this building obstruct the view of the

 8     streets across the river Miljacka from the positions of the Muslim forces

 9     in the red building?

10        A.   Can you please repeat, did this building what during the war?

11     Did it obstruct --

12        Q.   Yes, during the war did it obstruct the view from the Muslim

13     positions of the streets across the river Miljacka?

14        A.   No, it did not.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Exhibit D2627.  And the remaining five

18     associated exhibits will be admitted into evidence and be given numbers

19     in due course by the Registrar.

20             I take it you have concluded your examination-in-chief?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Excellencies.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Bambarez, as you have noted, your evidence

23     in chief was in most part admitted in the form of writing, i.e., in

24     written statement of yours, in lieu of your oral testimony.  Now you'll

25     be cross-examined by the representative of the Office of the Prosecutor,

Page 31309

 1     Ms. West.

 2                           Cross-examination by Ms. West:

 3        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

 4        A.   Good afternoon.

 5        Q.   I'd like to go back to these photos.

 6             MS. WEST:  May we have 1D85544 -- 1D8544.

 7        Q.   And this is the photo of the entire city that you showed us

 8     earlier, and it's based off a photo in this area in the map book.  And

 9     again if we can focus in on those buildings that you commented upon.  So

10     this building that we see with the red facade, this was held by both the

11     Muslims and the Bosnian Serbs; correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And in your statement you've gone to some effort to show the

14     heights of the other buildings, but I want to focus questions now as to

15     where a Bosnian Muslim sniper would have to be posted in order to have a

16     line of sight from off of the building with the red facade.

17             MS. WEST:  May we have 1D8545, please.

18        Q.   Now, this photo was taken from the building with the red facade,

19     the Bosnian Muslim building; correct?

20        A.   I assume so.  I'm not sure.

21        Q.   Well, would you agree with me that it appears whoever took this

22     photo had to be standing on the roof?

23        A.   At least on the last floor.  If not on the roof, then on the last

24     floor.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We can barely hear the

Page 31310

 1     witness.  Could he please be asked to speak into the microphone.  Thank

 2     you.

 3             MS. WEST:

 4        Q.   And this is a building in which within the same exact building

 5     there are Bosnian Serbs; correct?

 6        A.   This building with the blue roof, the one that I see now?

 7        Q.   No, my apologies.  The building from which this picture was

 8     taken, the building with the red facade also had Bosnian Serbs in it as

 9     well, did it not?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And so in order for your suggestion to make sense that there

12     would be a Bosnian Muslim sniper on that building taking some action,

13     that Bosnian Muslim sniper would be exposed to the Bosnian Serbs who were

14     in the same building, would he not?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Well, let me ask you about this building we see to the left, so

17     not the blue building in front of us but the one over to the left.  And

18     you said today at transcript page 41, you said that the building with the

19     red facade, the building from which this photo is being taken, was about

20     the same height as the building on the left side.  Do you remember saying

21     that?

22        A.   I said that the red building during the war was roughly the same

23     height or slightly higher than the building that we see on the left-hand

24     side than it was during the war, that is.

25        Q.   Okay.  And so for a sniper to successfully have a line of sight

Page 31311

 1     through that building that was of the same height or slightly higher, he

 2     would have to stand on the roof, wouldn't he?

 3        A.   Well, you see, I came to these two buildings at the beginning of

 4     1994, and the situation I found there is the one that I saw -- or rather

 5     that we saw in these photographs.  1994 was a relatively quiet year.  The

 6     cease-fire was being observed.  While I was at the front line and while I

 7     held these positions of the Army of Republika Srpska, I -- I don't know.

 8     I don't know of any sniper activity from that area, not even from the

 9     Muslim part.  As for the Serb part of the building, there were no snipers

10     at all.  At the time we did not have any snipers.  So I cannot say with

11     any certainty that the Muslim forces were firing from that red building,

12     that there was any sniper fire coming from there while I held the

13     position I held in the Army of Republika Srpska.

14        Q.   Okay.  So notwithstanding your testimony about the heights of all

15     these buildings, you don't have any other information that there was ever

16     a Bosnian Muslim sniper in that building, do you?

17        A.   I don't have any information of that sort.  I don't know of any

18     such thing.

19        Q.   Sir, I'd like to speak to you about your paragraph 7 which

20     regards Osmice.  And in paragraph 7 you say:

21             "From the settlement of Breka, it was impossible to see a tank

22     with the unaided eye ... in Osmice."

23             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

24             MS. WEST:  Yes.

25             JUDGE KWON:  I wonder whether the witness has his statement with

Page 31312

 1     him.  Would you like to have one in hard copy?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do have my statement.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 4             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5        Q.   And you can refer to paragraph 7 as well.  And this is when you

 6     talk about Breka and it being impossible to see a tank with the unaided

 7     eye, "mainly because the road passes through a pine forest near Osmice

 8     and I don't think it would be possible to see a tank on grey asphalt in a

 9     green forest with an unaided eye at a distance of over 2 kilometres."

10             Sir, how many tanks did your brigade have?

11        A.   I really don't know that information, how many tanks the brigade

12     had.

13        Q.   How about your battalion?

14        A.   The battalion did not have any tanks at all.  This was an

15     infantry battalion, we were an infantry company.  We did not have such

16     heavy weaponry in our unit.

17        Q.   Would it be surprising to learn that your brigade had at least

18     two tanks in this exact area that we're speaking about, in Zlatiste which

19     is close to Osmice?

20        A.   The brigade did not have tanks stationed at Osmice.

21        Q.   What about Zlatiste, which is very close to Osmice, is it not?

22        A.   Likewise, there was not a stationed tank there in the area of

23     Zlatiste.

24             MS. WEST:  May we have P05941, please.

25        Q.   This is a May 1995 document signed by Savo Simic.  The Court's

Page 31313

 1     seen this before.  If we can look at number 1, part (B), it speaks about

 2     fire support for the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade and the first thing

 3     it says is:  120-millimetre mortar batteries from Palez, an 82-millimetre

 4     mortar battery, and a 76-, and then it says two T-55 tanks from the area

 5     of Zlatiste and Vraca.

 6             Sir, seeing this now does this help you remember whether there

 7     were any tanks during your time in the SRK in Zlatiste?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, could we have the time

 9     exactly?  Can we see whether the witness was there in the first place,

10     when in May?

11             JUDGE KWON:  She told us the --

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It was only May that was mentioned,

13     not the date.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What's the year?

15             MS. WEST:  I suspect it must be a translation problem, but I did

16     mention May 1995.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Which day?  Which part of May?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I think the witness can answer the

19     question.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1995 I was in the logistics

21     platoon of the infantry battalion that was not at Zlatiste, and I was not

22     present at Zlatiste in 1995 at all.  What I said I said in relation to

23     the period when I was in Zlatiste.

24             MS. WEST:

25        Q.   Okay.  So other than the period when you were in Zlatiste you

Page 31314

 1     cannot tell us about any tank; is that your testimony?

 2        A.   That is correct, as far as the period when I was in Zlatiste is

 3     concerned; I can only speak about that.  But I really do not have any

 4     information about the period when I was not in Zlatiste and I cannot

 5     state my views with regard to what you've said.

 6             MS. WEST:  May we have 1D8543.

 7        Q.   This is one of your photographs and this you say in paragraph 7

 8     shows the Osmice feature as well as a view of the city and Breka from

 9     that particular feature.  And if we can look at that just for a moment.

10     So this is taken from Osmice; correct?

11        A.   This picture is so unclear, so foggy.  I cannot discern anything.

12     I don't even know where it was taken from.  But it is so unclear, the

13     picture.

14        Q.   Well, have you seen this picture before?

15        A.   Well, no, I haven't.  But I see it now -- actually, I received it

16     along with my statement and you can see even less there because it's

17     black and white.  So I really cannot discern this part of town, I mean

18     the one that I see in this panorama in terms of this photograph.

19             MS. WEST:  Your Honour, then I would strike this as an associated

20     exhibit.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Bambarez, could you expand on your statement

22     that you received this with your statement in black and white.  You

23     stated just now that you received it along with your statement and you

24     could see even less because it was black and white.

25             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, the witness is directing -- he's

Page 31315

 1     showing a copy of this in black and white just for the record.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson, would you like to respond to this?

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  I think it would be

 5     appropriate to read out to him what is in paragraph 7 of his statement

 6     with respect to this and ask him if that is correct or not.  And if he

 7     stands by it, then it should be admitted; if he doesn't, it can be

 8     withdrawn.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Bambarez, you said you had your statement with

10     you.  If you could draw your attention to the last part of paragraph 7.

11     So at the end of that paragraph you were explaining three photographs,

12     including 1D8543, which is the picture you are seeing in front of you

13     now, show the Osmice feature as well as the view of the city and Breka

14     from the feature.  And then you said you thought it would be impossible

15     to see a thing at such a distance with an unaided eye.  So this is a

16     photo you explained in your statement, but it's a bit difficult for us to

17     understand that you can't recognise this photo at all.  And I didn't

18     understand what you meant that this photo came along with your statement.

19     Does it mean you never saw this picture before?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw this photograph before but I

21     did not comment on this photograph with regard to the view from Osmice.

22     I commented upon two other photographs, where you can see the Osmice

23     pensione in a devastated state and also the plateau below Osmice.  And I

24     have those photographs in black and white as well.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the end of the

Page 31316

 1     sentence.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  We'll take this picture out of -- out from the

 3     associated exhibits.

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, that's fine.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue.

 6             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7        Q.   Let's continue to talk about Osmice and the view of Osmice into

 8     the city.  Now, you've lived your whole life in Sarajevo; right?

 9        A.   I was born in Sarajevo.  I finished high school in Sarajevo.  I

10     worked in Sarajevo.  But I lived on the outskirts of Sarajevo in a

11     village that is about 7 kilometres away from the centre of Sarajevo.  So

12     I did not live in Sarajevo then but I got my education in Sarajevo, I

13     worked there.  My family home where I lived is about 7 kilometres away

14     from Sarajevo, from the centre of Sarajevo.

15        Q.   Okay.  Then I suspect that you have seen the city of Sarajevo

16     from views all around it in your lifetime?

17        A.   Well, in my lifetime the best view of Sarajevo is the road from

18     the town leading to my house and the viewpoint at the memorial park of

19     Vrace.  And that is the road that I saw most often because Sarajevo was a

20     big city, after all.  Your life goes by without going into each and every

21     part of town.  So I haven't been to each and every part of town from

22     which there is a view of the city itself.  So this is a view from the

23     memorial park of Vrace, and you can see a considerable part of Sarajevo

24     from that viewpoint.

25        Q.   Okay.  But nonetheless in a little bit I'm going to be showing

Page 31317

 1     you some views of Sarajevo to see if you can help me with them in a

 2     moment.

 3             But first, in regard to this paragraph 7 when you talk about it

 4     being impossible to see a tank, do I assume that you're aware that the

 5     Trial Chamber has heard evidence from a witness regarding what she could

 6     see from her terrace in Breka, that she could see a tank in Osmice.  Do

 7     you know about that evidence?

 8        A.   The gentleman from the Defence team made me aware of that

 9     statement of that witness, who says that she saw a tank - I don't know

10     when - on the Osmice plateau.

11        Q.   Okay.

12        A.   Now, I still claim that she could not have seen one.

13        Q.   All right.  So let's look at her evidence and then I'll ask you

14     about it.

15             MS. WEST:  It's P00814, please, and if we can go to paragraph 25.

16     P00814.  This is the amalgamated statement of Fatima Zaimovic and let me

17     just read you portion of this.  It's paragraph 25.  In regard to Breka

18     she says it's:

19             "... it's on an elevation above the town, so from my window I

20     could see a part of Mount Trebevic and a part of the town, and I could

21     even see those two large UNIS skyscrapers that were very badly shelled.

22     Every morning, I could see a Serb tank move into position in the area

23     called Osmice and start shelling the town.  And on one occasion they even

24     filled barrels with explosives and rolled them down to explode among the

25     houses.  I could see that from my terrace early in the morning.  This

Page 31318

 1     must have been towards the end of 1992 and the beginning of 1993, when

 2     the shooting was fiercest.  The tank was there all the time.  There were

 3     only civilian targets being hit.  I could see the tank shelling hitting

 4     houses and apartments.  There were no military targets anywhere in sight.

 5     The barrels with the explosives were being rolled down from Serb-held

 6     territory in the area of Osmice."

 7             Is this the information that the Defence shared with you more or

 8     less?

 9        A.   The Defence did not fully supply this information to me.  They

10     said only that there was this statement made by a woman who said that she

11     saw from the area of Breka a tank firing from Osmice, firing at civilian

12     targets in Breka.  To this day I claim the following:  If you look at the

13     line between Breka and Osmice, it's about 2 to 2 and a half kilometres as

14     the crow flies.  In my statement I said, and we see that in the

15     photograph here of the Osmice plateau --

16        Q.   For the record you were showing 1D8542.  Go ahead.

17        A.   If the tank was on the Osmice plateau, it would have to be here.

18     There is a road going by Osmice, Lukavica-Pale.  In my statement I said,

19     and I say to this day, that on this asphalt if we look at the colour of

20     the asphalt and the colour of the -- of a tank and the green forest

21     around Osmice, I think that it is impossible to see a tank from that

22     distance.

23        Q.   Let's look at 1D8541 which is the other photo you have in your

24     statement regarding Osmice.  And this is also from paragraph 7.  This is

25     Osmice as well; correct?

Page 31319

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   When were these photos taken?

 3        A.   Believe me, I don't know when these photographs were taken, but

 4     judging by the way Osmice looks I see that this photograph was taken

 5     either during the war or after the war.

 6             MS. WEST:  May we have 65 ter 24311, please.

 7        Q.   Now, I'm going to show you some other photographs that you've not

 8     seen before and the first one is going to be a close-up.  And bearing in

 9     mind what that photo of Osmice looked like, I'd like to see if you see

10     anything else in here.  Do you see this photograph in front of you?  It's

11     taken of the Osmice area.  And do you see that stone building on the

12     left-hand side that's sort of above an orange-looking house, do you

13     recognise that to be Osmice?

14        A.   If you could zoom in a bit, it would be easier for me.

15             MS. WEST:  If I can ask for assistance on zooming in on the stone

16     building, please.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's been no zoom.  It's still

18     the way it's been except that you've lifted the picture up a bit.

19             MS. WEST:

20        Q.   How's that for you?  Can you see it now?

21        A.   I see the building.  I see the contours of Osmice, but I cannot

22     see the facade sufficiently.

23        Q.   Then can you confirm for us then that that is Osmice?

24        A.   This picture was taken from the Muslim part.  It was taken from

25     the lower side of Osmice.  I know Osmice better from the street on the

Page 31320

 1     upper side of Osmice and that's where I mostly entered, the one that

 2     leads to Pale --

 3        Q.   All right --

 4        A.   -- so I cannot say with any certainty --

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And if we can just go to the right a bit of the stone

 6     building of Osmice, and we see the pine trees and then we see a bit of a

 7     clearing.  Sir, can you confirm to me that there was a road that went

 8     between Osmice and Baba Stijene?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And does that appear to be the road to you?

11        A.   [No interpretation]

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not hear the

13     witness's answer.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15             MS. WEST:

16        Q.   And in paragraph 7 when you spoke about your doubts as to whether

17     somebody could see a tank coming from Osmice, you specifically said you

18     thought it was impossible "mainly because the road passes through a pine

19     forest near Osmice and I don't think it would be possible to see a tank

20     on grey asphalt in a green forest with the unaided eye..."

21             Now, sir, I want to tell you that this photo was taken very

22     recently, in September of 2012.  Would you agree with me that at the time

23     of the war, some 17-plus years ago, the vegetation that we see in this

24     photo would have been much less.  Would you agree with that?

25        A.   Well, regardless of the evergreen forest -- the vegetation is

Page 31321

 1     there all year round.  These are evergreens.  The leaves don't fall off.

 2     The pine needles are always there --

 3        Q.   No, I understand --

 4        A.   -- so it's --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters could not hear part of the

 6     sentence.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You cannot even see the road from

 8     here.  Would you like me to show where the road leads?  You see how the

 9     road cuts through the forest here towards Baba and Osmice and now you can

10     discern Osmice better than a moment ago.  You can see for yourself what

11     it is that you can see in any situation.  There's even a gorge here above

12     the road.

13             MS. WEST:

14        Q.   Okay.  So -- thank you.  So you yourself can see the road, can

15     you not?  You've just pointed it out.

16        A.   No.  I showed it.  Since I know the area.  I don't know whether

17     you can notice.  You cannot see the road, but you can see this sort of

18     canyon by the forest.  I can discern that but I don't know if you can.

19     So you see how it cuts through here, here.

20             MS. WEST:  I think if the usher would switch on the witness's

21     pen, that might be helpful.  Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we ask Mrs. West to tell us

23     what kind of zoom this is.  Was this photographed at a ratio of 1:1 from

24     the river?

25             JUDGE KWON:  No, it's not a proper intervention, Mr. Karadzic.

Page 31322

 1             MS. WEST:  So, Madam Registrar, if we could -- before we were

 2     higher and to the right when the witness was speaking about the road, if

 3     we could go back to that view and then over to the right a bit.

 4        Q.   All right, sir, you've got a pen.  Show us what you were just

 5     speaking about.  You spoke of a road.  Can you point that out on the

 6     screen?  You can actually write on the screen.

 7        A.   I was saying that I recognise this part, but you can't see the

 8     street or the road.  However, you can see where the road should be

 9     stretching through the forest.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yeah, we forgot to set the pen again.  Just wait.

11             Could you wait till assisted by our usher.

12             MS. WEST:

13        Q.   So now draw on the screen where you think the road is.

14        A.   Approximately.

15        Q.   Thank you very much.  And can you also circle the building at

16     Osmice?

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   Can you sign, please, sign your name on this and also date it,

19     which is the 12th of December.

20        A.   [Marks]

21             MS. WEST:  Your Honour, I would ask that this be admitted.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, next Prosecution exhibit.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Document receives number P6041, Your Honours.

24             MS. WEST:

25        Q.   Sir, when you received this information, did they tell you that

Page 31323

 1     she looked out every morning end of 1992 and into 1993 and saw this tank?

 2        A.   When I received this information - and I repeat, I only received

 3     information that there was a lady who had stated that she had seen a tank

 4     shooting from Osmice.  I did not have direct reports myself, but I

 5     maintain that what that lady said is a complete fabrication.  There was

 6     never any tank there.  And she refers to the end of 1992/early 1993,

 7     that's the period when I myself was there at the confrontation line, and

 8     it's absolutely not true that there was a tank moving about there every

 9     day.

10        Q.   So putting aside your opinion of her observations, would you

11     agree with me in a general sense that once somebody saw something once on

12     one morning and they went back the next morning, they would more readily

13     be able to look back at the same exact spot.  And as each morning went

14     by, they would more easily be able to spot exactly what they were looking

15     for because they knew exactly where to look.  Would you agree with that?

16        A.   I never did anything of the kind like observing something every

17     morning, looking at one point, and looking to see something specific

18     there.  So I can't say whether I agree or not.

19        Q.   Okay.  In paragraph 23 you spoke about forced labour.  May we

20     have 65 ter 24337.  And in paragraph 23, specifically you were speaking

21     about Serb civilians who remained in Muslim area and were forced to do

22     labour.  Were there any occasions where you yourself were aware of the

23     SRK forcing Bosnian Muslims into forced labour?

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness sit closer to the

25     microphones, please.

Page 31324

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, could you just clarify

 2     that question for me, please.

 3             MS. WEST:

 4        Q.   Were you ever aware of Bosnian Muslims being forced to do labour

 5     by the SRK?

 6        A.   On two or three occasions I was aware that a mixed-labour platoon

 7     came to us and helped us build protection facilities for the

 8     Lukavica-Pale road.  Among them, I recognised my own manager, Serb by

 9     ethnicity, who was not a military conscript --

10        Q.   Sir, let me ask you this --

11        A.   -- and --

12        Q.   My apologies for interrupting, but we're under a little bit of a

13     time-limit.  You just said "mixed-labour."  What did you mean by that?

14        A.   I meant that when I recognised among the men in that platoon by

15     Serb manager, I suppose that there were also Muslims among the members of

16     the platoon.

17        Q.   Let's look at the document in front of you, and this is a

18     document that's signed by you.  It's dated December 31st, 1993, and it

19     regards a working platoon from Grbavica and prisoners from Kula who were

20     performing engineering works.  It says there were a total of 15 people.

21     Fifteen of them were working along the line longer than 500 metres.  Sir,

22     do you remember this incident or do you remember this occasion?

23        A.   I remember.

24        Q.   Okay.  And it says 15 of them were working along the line longer

25     than 500 metres, does that mean the front line?

Page 31325

 1        A.   That means the separation line on our plain where we held our

 2     positions.  They helped us fortify our trenches and the shelters around

 3     the Lukavica-Pale road.

 4        Q.   And as we go through it it speaks in the next paragraph

 5     specifically where people were working.  And then in the middle it says:

 6             "In the morning Boro left to ask for the guards and he did not

 7     get any and he can confirm it."

 8             But then it says:

 9             "I remained at the locality where those people were working ..."

10             So you were with them the whole time, is that right, or most of

11     the time anyways?

12        A.   I was with them most of the time.  Six men were working to

13     fortify my trench and I spent the greatest part of the day with them.

14        Q.   All right.  And if we skip down to the bottom or the towards the

15     bottom it says:

16             "I was there for a maximum ten minutes and when I was returning,"

17     meaning you'd been away for ten minutes, but when you were returning,

18     "Lackanovic was shooting at four of them who had started running away.

19     Two more prisoners were at that spot and I managed to take them out of

20     the communication trench."

21             Let's stop there.  When you made this observation, did you hear

22     this Lackanovic give those prisoners a warning to stop before he started

23     shooting or did he just start shooting at them?

24        A.   On the 31st December, as you see here, at 1600 hours, it was

25     already getting dark.  And I can see that we had called the command.  Two

Page 31326

 1     or three members were working further down, members of the mixed platoon,

 2     and they were wanted for some other work further down the line --

 3        Q.   I'm sorry to interrupt you, and I know that you're explaining the

 4     circumstances, but I think we can see it in the document.  Can you just

 5     answer this:  Did you hear him give a warning to the prisoners at whom he

 6     fired?

 7        A.   I did not hear anything because I was far away from him.  I

 8     couldn't hear him from that distance.

 9        Q.   And if we just go to the last paragraph this is what you wrote:

10             "I just want to mention that regardless of all dangers that were

11     in the places that are supposed to be guarded (during the day there were

12     dozens bombs falling down a metre or two far from me), I was with them

13     all the time until that moment."

14             So here you're confirming that within that area where you were

15     and where these prisoners in this working platoon were located, you were

16     on the front line and you had dozens of bombs falling around you; is that

17     correct?

18        A.   I state here that I was there with them and I built

19     fortifications alongside them 50 metres away from the separation line,

20     perhaps less, and the Muslim forces were showering us with bombs which

21     were landing very close to us.  So what I'm trying to say is I was there

22     with them under the same circumstances.

23        Q.   Okay.  Very good.  And these people did not volunteer to do that

24     work, did they?

25        A.   I don't know.  I don't know about the circumstances under which

Page 31327

 1     they were recruited, whether they volunteered or not, and I didn't even

 2     ask for them to come.  They were brought there.  And in addition to all

 3     the things we had to do, on the front line, we also asked for a security

 4     detail to come with these people; however, the security detail did not

 5     come.  So we were forced to stay with them while they were building

 6     fortifications and we were together in the trench; however, they took

 7     advantage of the time when it was getting dark to escape and they

 8     escaped.  Good luck to them.

 9        Q.   Sir, just one more question.  Have you ever been a member of a

10     political party?

11        A.   I was a member of the Serbian Democratic Party of the Novo

12     Sarajevo municipality.

13        Q.   And during your membership, was that membership in 1991, 1992,

14     1993, about those years?

15        A.   I was a member of the Serbian Democratic Party in 1991 and the

16     beginning of 1992 until the war began.  The work of the party was on hold

17     for the duration of the war so there was no party activity.

18        Q.   And my last question for you is:  That information is nowhere

19     mentioned in your statement, is it?

20        A.   Nobody asked me.

21             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I have no further

22     questions.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Before we remove this document from the monitor,

24     probably you will tender this document?

25             MS. WEST:  Yes.

Page 31328

 1             JUDGE KWON:  We'll admit it as next Prosecution exhibit.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Document receives number P6042, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  The English translation of this document,

 4     Mr. Bambarez, says that you were lieutenant-colonel at the time.  Is it

 5     correct?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  What was your rank at the time?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In June 1992 I started out as a

 9     commander of a platoon and then I became second lieutenant and remained

10     in that rank until the end of the war.

11             JUDGE KWON:  So "p.por" should read "second lieutenant" instead

12     of "lieutenant-colonel"?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

15             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very briefly, Your Excellency.

17             May I call up photograph 2627, please.

18                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

19        Q.   [Interpretation] You were asked, Mr. Bambarez, whether you had

20     noticed Muslim snipers shooting from the red building.  I should like to

21     ask you, were they able to shoot both from sniper rifles and even

22     automatic weapons reaching the other side across the Miljacka river?

23        A.   They were able to fire with all infantry weapons across the

24     Miljacka river from that building, including sniper rifles.  But I said

25     that during the time I was there I never observed them doing it.

Page 31329

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Were they able to shoot from the Unioninvest

 2     building, that is, the white building?

 3        A.   Certainly.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we get now P6041, please.

 5     Thank you.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Could you tell us, is this area visible from the river without

 8     any special sights or is this picture taken with some kind of zoom?

 9        A.   If we have noted that the distance between the Osmice plateau and

10     the river is 2 to 2 and a half kilometres, I do not think that you can

11     see this without using a zoom because you can see here very nicely these

12     two buildings and the Osmice houses.  So I don't think that using the

13     normal lens of a camera you can get a picture like this.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we upload unmarked picture, the previous

15     version, which was 65 number of which was 24311.  So instead of putting

16     the question to the witness, I think Ms. West could clarify whether this

17     picture was taken with zoom or not.

18             MS. WEST:  Indeed it was, Your Honour, and I thought I had done

19     that in the beginning, but it was taken with a zoom lens.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

21             Please proceed.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tried, Your Excellency, but you

23     have instructed me about re-direct.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Mr. Bambarez, with the assistance of the usher, could you please

Page 31330

 1     mark where the Serb and where the Muslim lines were.  Can we see the

 2     Muslim lines on this picture?  And who lived in these houses that we see

 3     close up?

 4        A.   The houses that you see below the road leading to Pale were all

 5     occupied by Muslims.

 6        Q.   Who controlled this area?

 7        A.   Muslims.

 8        Q.   Could you please use red and blue to draw the line indicating

 9     where both sides' trenches were.

10        A.   As far as Serb forces are concerned in this area, I can mark only

11     that they were in the Osmice boarding house.

12        Q.   What about Muslim positions?

13        A.   This area is an area of rather steep slopes and they were

14     somewhere here around their own houses.

15        Q.   Would you as a soldier say that there is enough range for a Zolja

16     or an Osa hand-held rocket-launcher from the Muslim positions to the Serb

17     lines?

18             MS. WEST:  Objection.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  It's beyond the scope of cross-examination.

20     How does it arise from her cross-examination?

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Question -- then my question is:  Would, Mr. Bambarez, as a

23     soldier put a tank on the forward front line within the range of

24     anti-armour weapons ?

25        A.   Seeing that I'm not a professional soldier and I only have

Page 31331

 1     experience from the previous war, I would not put a tank on the forward

 2     front line nor would we need one.  In view of the lay of the land and our

 3     own positions, infantry weapons were quite enough for our regular duties

 4     and sufficient to protect us.  And I would not put a tank there.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  But would one be able to see a cannonball propulsed

 6     through the barrel of a tank, or rather, a shell?

 7        A.   I don't know.  How could you possibly see a shell from the barrel

 8     of a tank?  God knows what the velocity is.  I doubt it.

 9        Q.   Now I'll read to you from transcript page 1980 from line 4 in

10     English - you will get interpretation - that's my question.

11             [In English] "But you said that you saw a tank and you even saw a

12     shell being fired from the tank?

13             "A.  Yes, and the shell could be seen as it flew towards the

14     apartment buildings there.

15             "Q.  But, Madam, that shell is fired at the speed of 1.300 metres

16     per second?

17             "A.  Yes, unfortunately.

18             "Q.  So how can you see that?

19             "A.  But you can, you can see exactly how it's pulled and how it

20     goes out -- how it's fired and the shell is fired from the -- that

21     barrel."

22             [Interpretation] What can you say about this?  The lady says from

23     a distance of 2 and a half kilometres she not the only saw a tank but

24     also the shell coming from the barrel of the tank?

25        A.   That's simply ridiculous.

Page 31332

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Can you put a date on this photograph and sign it.

 2     You've marked on it Serb and Muslim positions.

 3        A.   What am I supposed to --

 4             THE ACCUSED:  Could you help him --

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Is your pen still active?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Could you put a date, 12.12.12, and your signature.

 8             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, next Defence exhibit.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Document receives number D2 -- just a second.

11     D2632, Your Honours.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Just one more question.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   When you provided your statement to the Defence team, when was it

15     the first time you did it?

16        A.   Sometime at the beginning of this year.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Were you shown all these photos at that time?

18        A.   Some photos were shown to me.  Until you show them all to me now,

19     I can't say that I saw them all.

20        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Bambarez, for coming to The Hague to testify.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions for

22     this witness, Your Honours.

23                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Bambarez.  That concludes your

25     evidence.  On behalf of this Chamber, I'd like to thank you for your

Page 31333

 1     coming to The Hague to give it.  Now you're free to go.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  We'll rise all together.  We're going to have a

 4     break for 45 minutes and resume at 25 past 1.00.

 5                           [The witness withdrew]

 6                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.36 p.m.

 7                           [The witness entered court]

 8                           --- On resuming at 1.28 p.m.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness take the solemn declaration,

10     please.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

12     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13                           WITNESS:  MILORAD SEHOVAC

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Sehovac.  Please be seated and make

16     yourself comfortable.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Sehovac, before you start giving evidence, I

19     would like to draw your attention to a particular rule here at the

20     Tribunal.  Under this rule, Rule 90(E), you may object to answering a

21     question from the Prosecution or the accused or from the Judges if you

22     believe that your answer will incriminate you.  When I say "incriminate,"

23     I mean that something you say may amount to an admission of your guilt

24     for a criminal offence or could provide evidence that you have committed

25     an offence.  However, even if you think your answer will incriminate you

Page 31334

 1     and you do not wish to answer the question, the Tribunal has the power to

 2     compel you to answer the question.  But in such a case, the Tribunal will

 3     make sure that your testimony compelled in such a way shall not be used

 4     as evidence in other case against you for any offence other than false

 5     testimony.  Do you understand what I have just told you?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand you fully.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Sehovac.

 8             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Excellency.

10                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Colonel Sehovac.

12        A.   Good afternoon, Mr. President.

13        Q.   I have to ask you to take -- make a little break after my

14     question.  I have to remind myself of the same thing.  This will allow

15     the interpreters to interpret our words properly.  Perhaps you could pay

16     attention to the screen.  When the letters stop moving the interpretation

17     is over and you can start.  Did you provide my Defence team a statement?

18        A.   Yes, I did.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D6901 in

20     e-court.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Do you see that statement on the screen in front of you?

23        A.   Yes, I do.

24        Q.   Did you read the statement and did you sign it?

25        A.   Yes, I did.

Page 31335

 1        Q.   Does the statement reflect your words accurately?

 2        A.   Yes, it does fully.

 3        Q.   If I were to put the same questions to you today in the

 4     courtroom, the same ones that were put to you by the team, would your

 5     answers be the same?

 6        A.   Yes, they would.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, may I tender the

 9     statement into evidence pursuant to Rule 92 ter?

10             JUDGE KWON:  And how about the associated exhibits, Mr. Robinson?

11             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  I think we managed to get all

12     of these on the 65 ter list.

13             JUDGE KWON:  They were on the 65 ter list?

14             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, I believe so.

15             JUDGE KWON:  I take it there are several documents that were not

16     translated?  Is my understanding correct?

17             MR. ROBINSON:  I haven't been made aware of that at all.

18             MR. NICHOLLS:  There's one, Your Honour, at least.  I believe

19     one.

20             JUDGE KWON:  I checked several days ago, but I had five of

21     them -- six of them.  What's the number, Mr. Nicholls?  Good afternoon to

22     you.  What's the number that you have?

23             MR. NICHOLLS:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  1D0675 from page 23

24     of the revised statement.  That one I couldn't find.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Mm-hmm.  How about 1D8438, shall we upload it?

Page 31336

 1             I have to correct my statement.  There are two or three documents

 2     that were not translated and the others were not uploaded on e-court, but

 3     let us check.  Do we have 1D8438?

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  That doesn't look like it's uploaded on my

 5     e-court.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  No.  And how about 1D8446A?

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, we also don't have that uploaded apparently.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  How about 1D20311 referred to in para 70?

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  Apparently we don't have a translation for that

10     one.

11             JUDGE KWON:  And further, in para 53 the statement refers to

12     1D8424 and para 54 refers to 8425, i.e., 1D8425.  The Chamber does not

13     see these two documents as constituting indispensable and inseparable

14     part of the statement.  So if the accused is minded to tender those two

15     documents he should lead live.  And in addition to those two documents,

16     those statements -- those documents untranslated and not uploaded will

17     not be admitted at the moment.  All the other remaining associated

18     exhibits will be admitted and given numbers in due course by the

19     Registrar.  But before that, shall we give the number for his 92 ter

20     statement.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D6901 receives number D2633,

22     Your Honours.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

24             Please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellencies.  I'm

Page 31337

 1     not complaining, but I would like you to understand that this is not

 2     through ill-will of mine but through the lack of personnel.  Even the few

 3     people that I have, who are exhausted, cannot keep up with the pace of

 4     work that has been imposed on us.

 5             I'm now going to read Colonel Sehovac's statement summary in

 6     English.

 7             [In English] Milorad Sehovac graduated from the land forces

 8     military academy, with a specialisation in infantry and the command staff

 9     tactical training school in 1990.  He took over the duty of brigade

10     commander of the 2nd Sarajevo Light Infantry Brigade around 18th of

11     August, 1992.  From June the 9 to July the 3rd, 1995, he had spinal

12     surgery at the military medical academy in Belgrade.  From 3rd of July

13     until September 1995, he was in -- on sick leave.  In mid-September 1995,

14     he was transferred - due to the limited health capacity - to the

15     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command, as duty operations officer in the

16     headquarters, where he stayed until mid-July 1996 when the

17     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps was disbanded.  On April the 15th, 2002,

18     Colonel Milorad Sehovac retired due to the operation with the rank of

19     colonel.

20             In the period between April 1992 and December 1995, the 1st Corps

21     of BH army was in the part of the city of Sarajevo under the control of

22     the Muslim authorities.  These forces had units on the forward defence

23     line, as well as support forces in the depth of their territory in the

24     city.  Unit of -- the unit of Colonel Sehovac had information that the

25     1st Corps of BH army has positions in civilian zones and civilian

Page 31338

 1     features.  Neither in Hrasnica nor in Dobrinja was there any exclusively

 2     civilian zone without enemy firing positions or units.  Superior command

 3     informed the UN about this by lodging protests.

 4             There were two basic objectives set by the Sarajevo-Romanija

 5     Corps regarding the city of Sarajevo:  First, protection of the territory

 6     and protection of the population.  One of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps

 7     objectives was to blockade of the forces of the 1st Corps of BH army in

 8     the city in order to prevent them from being engaged on other fronts in

 9     BH.  The Sarajevo-Romanija Corps carried out active defensive operation

10     and activity.  His brigade partly carried out offensive activity

11     exclusively for tactical improvement of positions.

12             When carrying out combat operations, neither him nor his brigade

13     understood those actions as part of a systematic or widespread attack on

14     civilians.  He heard about offers of the general headquarters civilian

15     authorities and Dr. Karadzic himself for Sarajevo to be completely

16     demilitarised.  The Butmir airport was handed over before his arrival to

17     the brigade, it was handed over for the humanitarian reasons and to serve

18     the needs of the United Nations forces.

19             Superior commands or civilian authorities informed his brigade

20     about the provisions of the international law of war and humanitarian law

21     during consultations and meetings which he attended, it was stressed and

22     ordered to act in accordance with the Geneva Conventions.  Dr. Karadzic

23     personally insisted and demanded this every time.  Orders from superior

24     command and civilian authorities also stated that if fire was opened

25     against civilians, investigations had to be carried out and perpetrators

Page 31339

 1     punished.  But there were no such case in his unit.  He also knows about

 2     efforts to enable the flow of electricity, gas, and water to civilians in

 3     Sarajevo, but this was under the purview of civilian authorities.  He has

 4     knowledge that Dr. Karadzic personally strove to create normal living

 5     conditions for the Muslims who were in Serbian territory and to ensure

 6     the same living conditions for those on the other side of the front line.

 7             The brigade of Colonel Sehovac took preventive measures to avoid

 8     opening fire on civilian features.  Action was only taken against

 9     observed combat positions and only when fired at.  They did not open fire

10     on civilian targets and if they knew there was a danger of causing

11     civilian casualties, fire was stopped.  Never he nor members of his unit

12     or higher or lower commands had any intention of causing civilian

13     casualties or terrorising or exerting psychological terror on civilians

14     under the control of the Muslim authorities.  He never issued, nor

15     received, from superior commands or civilian authorities, any oral or

16     written orders to carry out attacks against civilians or means of the

17     public transport.  On the contrary, superior command ordered - and so did

18     he - that civilians in the city under Muslim control should not be

19     targeted.

20             Conversely, civilians in his zone of responsibility were

21     subjected to direct sniper, mortar, and artillery fire by the Muslim

22     forces on the daily basis, killing children, civilians, and soldiers, and

23     there were cases of enemy sabotage groups carrying out raids and

24     mutilating civilians.  There were also rumours that Muslim snipers opened

25     fire against the civilians in the city under their own, Muslim, control.

Page 31340

 1     Muslim units of the 1st BH Army Corps were supposed to be controlled by

 2     UNPROFOR, but this control was poor and UNPROFOR showed inactivity in

 3     preventing provocations from these units.

 4             Most units in the brigade of Colonel Sehovac were reserve forces

 5     and there were very few professional servicemen.  The level of training

 6     depended on the period of war.  In tactical actions, where proficiency of

 7     the unit was required, there were a lot of striking weaknesses.  The lack

 8     of professional command officers affected the quality of control,

 9     command, and inspections of the brigade.  Problems with the exercising of

10     effective control were partly present.  There were no specially organised

11     sniper units in his brigade.  Ammunition levels were critical and orders

12     from higher commands insisted on sparing use.

13             His brigade rarely had contact with humanitarian convoys, but it

14     let civilians, for example, Croats go through its zone of responsibility

15     when the conflict between Muslims and Croats -- Croatian forces broke

16     out.  He had information about the abuse of humanitarian convoys for

17     military purposes for units of the 1st Corps of BH army.  Most

18     humanitarian aid goods went to the units instead to the civilians or were

19     sold at the black market.  These convoys were also used to smuggle

20     weapons for the use of the 1st Corps of BH army.

21             Colonel Milorad Sehovac had information about the existence of

22     production of modified aerial bombs for striking targets on the ground

23     which were in the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps arsenal, but his brigade did

24     not have them.  He also had information about the modification of

25     missiles for striking targets on the ground by units of the 1st BH Army

Page 31341

 1     Corps.  He knows that there were no fuel air bombs in the

 2     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps or JNA arsenal.

 3             There were no paramilitary units in the zone of responsibility of

 4     his brigade, and higher commands and civilian authorities were vigorously

 5     opposed to it.  He had a good co-operation with the Ilidza and Trnovo

 6     municipality.  He never obtained any information that there was a Serbian

 7     municipal policy of persecution, killing, or discrimination based on

 8     religious or ethnic grounds in the zone of responsibility of his brigade.

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, in the meantime I have some more

10     information for you about some of these associated exhibits.  1D8438 is

11     admitted already as P1208.  I'm told that 1D8446A has been released.  For

12     1D20311, we do have a translation.  It hasn't yet been uploaded but it's

13     being sent to the parties by e-mail, and we still don't have a

14     translation for 126275.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Even for those documents the translation of which

16     was now released -- yes, for that document still the accused --

17     Mr. Karadzic needs to lead live if he so wishes.

18             Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

19             Thank you for the information, Mr. Robinson.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.  I

21     would like to call up 1D20311 in e-court.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Mr. Sehovac, do you have a copy of your statement in front of

24     you?

25        A.   Yes, I do.

Page 31342

 1        Q.   Please pay attention to paragraph 70 in your statement.  Could

 2     you please tell us --

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:  Excuse me --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

 5             MR. NICHOLLS:  Why is he reading his statement?  If he's going to

 6     ask him about the document, why doesn't he just ask him about the

 7     document.  There's no more leading way than to go through the statement.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Mr. Karadzic, when I said that you need to

 9     lead live, then why don't you put questions directly and put the document

10     later on?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I apologise.  This is a

12     novelty.  This is a new experience for me so I need some time.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Colonel, sir, were you in a position to bring your unit to full

15     combat-preparedness and what was the occasion?

16        A.   Yes, I was often in such situations to have my unit in the state

17     of full combat-readiness, especially when the enemy was preparing its

18     offensives.  Due to the shortage of personnel which is reflected in the

19     order that is on the screen, we were forced to mobilise certain units on

20     work obligation and those people who were employed in the bodies of

21     authority, that's how we formed platoons and reinforced our battalions.

22     The only reason for that was the shortage of personnel.  Why was that the

23     case?  Because --

24             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second --

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- the location of our --

Page 31343

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

 2             MR. NICHOLLS:  I'm sorry to interrupt and no offence to you,

 3     Mr. Sehovac, but I would prefer that this be done without the statement

 4     so we can test his recollection of the document.  He's reading from the

 5     statement.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Oh.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can easily close the

 8     statement.

 9             So why did we engage those units?  The brigade was mobilised from

10     a very small area, Gojkovic [as interpreted], Grlici, and Kupres was that

11     area, as well as the local commune of Kijevo.  The average density of the

12     population there was 5.000 inhabitants, and our strength was up to 70

13     per cent throughout the war, Your Honour.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Thank you.  I'm waiting for the interpretation to be over.  Tell

16     me, did you mobilise Muslims and Croats or did you only mobilise Serbs?

17        A.   Those were purely Serb settlements.  As far as I know in the

18     local commune of Vojkovici there was only one Muslim family before the

19     war.  There was some Muslim families residing in Kasindol, but that was

20     outside of my area of responsibility.  Therefore, we recruited only

21     Serbs.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me, please, how often were you in a position to

23     raise the level of combat-readiness to a higher level?

24        A.   Let me just add something to my previous answer.  In my unit

25     there was only one Muslim throughout the war.  When the war was over he

Page 31344

 1     went to Hrasnica and I also had a few Croats in my unit.  How often was

 2     that?  It depended on the combat situation at hand.  There was a need to

 3     do that because the brigade occupied a special place in a built-up area

 4     and its position was tactically very unfavourable.

 5             Above the brigade, above the zone of defence of the brigade,

 6     Muslim units held a line of some 6 kilometres in a built-up area.  They

 7     towered over the brigade and the distance in altitude between the two was

 8     about 250 to 300 metres.  The area was wooded, intersected.  The gradient

 9     was over 45 degrees, and we organised our defence in the field.  And they

10     could see us really well, and that's how they could open fire on us and

11     that was the only reason we did that.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Did you have in this area ambitions or mount any

13     operations to expand your zone to include Hrasnica and some Muslim

14     settlements?

15        A.   All combat operations carried out by the brigade were exclusively

16     defensive in nature except for individual actions which I'll be free to

17     say can be qualified as active combat operations, which means that on

18     certain axes we carried out raids and incursions and sabotage actions

19     against the forward lines of the enemy and we never engaged more than 100

20     men in such active actions.  For certain activities we would second units

21     one to two platoons in strength.  We never attacked a Muslim-populated

22     area.  Ahead of the defence area of the brigade, the only Muslim

23     settlements were Butmir and Hrasnica, and we never had any ambition to

24     attack them nor did we attack them.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 31345

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now call up 1D20311.

 2     1D20311.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Could you tell us, please, what kind of information did you get

 5     in mid-August 1994 and what does this document mean?

 6        A.   Can I use this, Mr. President?

 7        Q.   Yes, it's your document now.

 8        A.   Because the Prosecution showed it to me before.  Yes, this is my

 9     document.  It's dated 14 August 1994.  It's based on an order from the

10     command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps five days earlier pending an enemy

11     offensive we were expecting named Step by Step.  I as brigade commander

12     undertook all activities for all available forces in the area of

13     responsibility of the brigade to be placed in a state of full

14     combat-readiness, to carry out its tasks.  We see under number 2 that two

15     platoons were to be formed from the personnel having work obligation with

16     personnel from the Famos enterprise.  Men were to be taken to reinforce

17     the 2nd Infantry Battalion.  The 1st Infantry Battalion was to be

18     reinforced with --

19        Q.   Colonel, I would like to hear the interpretation of all the 15

20     points, but I would like to hear from you whether this information you

21     had was correct.  Did this offensive really happen in 1994?

22        A.   Yes, but I can't see points 9 and 12 on this page.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Probably your question about 9 and 12 were not

25     translated.  Let's --

Page 31346

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The speakers are both

 2     speaking too fast and overlapping.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  I just heard from the interpreters you are speaking

 4     too fast and do not put a pause between the answer and your question.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.  We will try to make a

 6     pause between question and answer.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   And I ask the same of you, Colonel.  First of all, tell me

 9     whether this information you had was correct and did the offensive happen

10     in August of 1994?

11        A.   Yes, the information was correct.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please explain to the Chamber the gist of

13     paragraphs 9 and 12.  What I'm interested in is what kind of preparation

14     this was for what kind of action and for what reasons.

15        A.   Paragraph 9, the task is issued to the chief of artillery,

16     Major Momcilo Gorancic to be ready to fire on targets on the ground and

17     in the air.  Since we had no artillery units, the brigade had mostly

18     120-millimetre mortars, Gorancic got the task to use a mixed artillery

19     battalion of the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade to establish

20     co-ordinated action and plan fire on the eastern slopes of the Igman

21     mountain.  And in the area of the Sarajevo field, Sarajevsko Polje, from

22     where we expected an attack.

23        Q.   Could you look at paragraph 12 now and show us how many snipers

24     you had and what their tasks were.

25        A.   Paragraph 12, I'm issuing the task to battalion commanders to

Page 31347

 1     prepare their snipers, machine-gunners, and Browning gunners to

 2     successfully destroy enemy snipers and fire on detected targets of the

 3     enemy in their defence areas.  The brigade had 17 snipers made in

 4     Yugoslavia M76 calibre, 7.9-millimetres.  And these snipers were used in

 5     combat operations exclusively in places where their combat qualities and

 6     purpose could be used to best advantage, that means in open space,

 7     generally speaking, when the enemy was removed from the forward end of

 8     the barrage fire, mainly on the slopes of the Igman in a place called

 9     Rozice [phoen] and on the northern-eastern slopes of Bjelasnica and

10     Treskavica mountains.

11        Q.   Are these populated areas?  What kind of terrain was it?  Were

12     there any settlements?

13        A.   This is rugged mountain terrain, altitude ranging from 700 to

14     2.780 metres.  There was not a single populated place in that part of the

15     brigade's defence area.

16        Q.   Thank you, Colonel.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I tender this document?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll mark it for identification pending

19     English translation.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D20311 receives number D2634, MFI'd,

21     Your Honours.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Colonel, did you receive any working visits by the corps command

25     and the UNPROFOR command?

Page 31348

 1        A.   Yes.  The corps command made scheduled inspections of units and

 2     based on perceived shortcomings issued tasks with clear dead-lines for

 3     these shortcomings to be redressed in order to improve combat-readiness

 4     of the brigade.  And concerning the UNPROFOR, we did receive their visits

 5     throughout the war.  And the UNPROFOR was particularly present after the

 6     Lukavac 93 operation when the brigade held positions between the area

 7     covered by the UNPROFOR and the area covered by the Muslim brigade.  So

 8     that would be the period between 14 August 1993 when all operations

 9     ceased on Mount Igman.

10        Q.   What was your attitude, the attitude of your command and brigade,

11     to cease-fires?

12        A.   We observed cease-fires and honoured them to the extent we were

13     not losing personnel and live targets.  We only opened fire when the

14     enemy fired first and inflicted losses upon us.  You can see that from

15     the documents of the corps command - and I hope you have these.  And I

16     can say regarding both the superior command and the UNPROFOR, we had a

17     decent and honest relationship.

18        Q.   Did the corps command verify your observation of the cease-fire?

19        A.   Yes, they did.  In certain periods - and that happened constantly

20     although not every day - they would send commanding officers from the

21     corps command to check the combat positions of the brigade with the basic

22     objective to establish whether we were complying with the ordered

23     measures at the time of cease-fires.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Mr. Karadzic is kindly

25     asked to repeat the number.  He again did not make a pause.

Page 31349

 1             JUDGE KWON:  They couldn't hear you, Mr. Karadzic.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D6275.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Could you tell us what this document is about?

 5        A.   Just a moment.  I need to look through.  This is a report from

 6     commanding officer Major Milivoj Solar who was subordinated to the corps

 7     command.  And on 9 May 1993 he inspected some of the units of the

 8     Sarajevo Brigade.  And he notes, as I'm reading this is the fourth

 9     paragraph from the top, Mr. Solar checked on the 3rd Battalion and toured

10     all the positions of the companies in that battalion.  It is said that

11     they received an order from the brigade command to cease fire and they

12     passed this order down.  So the order went from the brigade command all

13     the way down the chain.  But then it is said that the order is fully

14     observed on our side, and all violations by the enemy are regularly

15     reported to the command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.  Other things are

16     noted here that I don't think are relevant to your question.  So we see

17     clearly from this document that there is full observation of the

18     cease-fire by the 3rd Battalion of the 2nd Sarajevo Brigade.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us - perhaps it's not important but it

20     may give us a full picture - what was the ethnicity of this major?

21        A.   This was an honourable officer of Croat ethnicity.  He remained

22     with us until the end of the war and he lives in Novi Sad today and we

23     still meet quite often.

24        Q.   Was this inspection visit an exception or not?

25        A.   It was a planned, scheduled, organised visit by a superior

Page 31350

 1     officer.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I tender this

 3     exhibit and I'm giving up on the other two.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll mark it for identification.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D6275 receives number D2635, MFI'd,

 6     Your Honours.

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  And, Mr. President, we won't be tendering 1D8424

 8     or 1D8425.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  How about 1D8446A?

10             MR. ROBINSON:  That's a map, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Okay.  There's no opposition with respect to that?

12     Yes.  That map will be added to the admitted associated exhibits.

13             Then you're done, Mr. Karadzic?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellency.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Colonel Sehovac, as you have noted now that most of

16     your -- all of your -- your evidence in chief in most part has been

17     admitted in writing in lieu of your oral testimony, and now you'll be

18     cross-examined by the representative of the Office of the Prosecutor,

19     Mr. Nicholls.

20             Please continue.

21             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22                           Cross-examination by Mr. Nicholls:

23        Q.   Sir, I want to briefly go through some of the chronology of your

24     military career that's left out of your statement, the same period we

25     talked about on Monday.  Okay?

Page 31351

 1        A.   Yes, go ahead.

 2        Q.   And I don't want to -- because of the time I don't want to spend

 3     a lot of time talking about all the different tasks you were doing, but

 4     just what your positions were.  Now, in your statement in paragraph 1 we

 5     have -- you don't need to look at it, we have in 1990 you completed a

 6     two-year course in tactical school -- tactical staff command.  You were

 7     then appointed as an assistant commander for a border battalion.  That

 8     went until approximately August -- mid-August 1991.  From mid-August 1991

 9     to 16 July you were in Brcko as chief of a sector that was not a combat

10     unit but a territorial organ dealing with training, mobilisation, sort of

11     administrative things of that nature.  On or around 19 of May, 1992, you

12     became a member of the VRS.  From around 16 July to 5th of August you

13     told me you were Chief of Staff of the 1st Posavina Brigade in Brcko.

14     And then on 18th of August, 1992, you became commander of the Sarajevo

15     Light Infantry Brigade, the 2nd, which we see in paragraph 2 of your

16     statement and then it continues through your retirement.  Is that correct

17     how I've got the chronology?

18        A.   Yes.  I do have a few corrections, though.  I became assistant,

19     not deputy commander of the -- that border battalion because border

20     service is idiosyncratic.  It took me seven months to be trained for the

21     job and then the war began.  I was not chief of sector.  I was chief of

22     military department.  It is a military territorial department linked to

23     the Ministry of Defence through the military district of Tuzla, and it

24     doesn't deal with training as you said.  It keeps records of military

25     conscripts, it recruits, sends men to the army, and assigns military

Page 31352

 1     conscripts who have done their military service to military units of the

 2     former JNA, Territorial Defence, war time police, and other defence

 3     organisations under the then-system of All People's Defence.  And I did

 4     not finish my career during the war.  I went to the General Staff and

 5     later to the Army of Yugoslavia.  I got retired on the 15th of April --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the year.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- I finished my service in the

 8     staff of the command of the Novi Sad Corps.  And I have one more thing to

 9     note.  We need to clear this up.  After the departure of officers from

10     the territory of former republics on the 19th of May, 1992, I in the

11     Brcko garrison, in addition to my regular duties of chief of military

12     department, I also discharged duties of the Chief of Staff of the

13     1st Posavina Brigade.  As far as duties of Chief of Staff of the brigade

14     are concerned, I began with that as of 16 July 1992, when military

15     departments were abolished and their responsibilities were transferred to

16     the sections of the Ministry of Defence --

17             MR. NICHOLLS:

18        Q.   -- okay --

19        A.   -- that was established in municipalities.  That is correct.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I want to correct the transcript.

21     Line 25 and on page 91 and beginning of 92, he said he was not assistant

22     but deputy commander and he was retired in 2002.

23             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

24        Q.   Now -- are you finished?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 31353

 1        Q.   Okay.

 2             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I please have up 24274.

 3        Q.   And I'm going back to your time in Brcko now.  I'm going to show

 4     you a document and then another document and ask you some questions about

 5     it.

 6             MR. NICHOLLS:  I need e-court page 124, please.

 7        Q.   Sir, this is in English.  It's only about one sentence, two

 8     sentences, so I'll read it out to you.  This is from paragraph 327.  And

 9     what this document is is the judgement in the trial of Mr. Krajisnik in

10     this Tribunal.  This is from the section entitled "municipality crimes."

11     And I want to read out to you this part from paragraph 327 which deals

12     with Brcko when you were there.

13             "On 10 May," this is 1992, "one of the workers detained at the

14     fire station was shot on the orders of JNA Captain Sehovac.  Detainees

15     were told that anyone not on the Serb side would face the same fate."

16             And I'll give you a chance to answer that in one minute because I

17     want to show you another document that goes with it.

18             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I have 24272, please, e-court page 17.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Before that, could we get a

20     reference, 745, to see who that is?  Could we raise this a bit?

21             MR. NICHOLLS:  I object to the objection.

22             JUDGE KWON:  You can do that yourself.

23             MR. NICHOLLS:

24        Q.   All right, sir, now what you have in front of you - and I don't

25     know if you've heard about this before - it's testimony from a witness in

Page 31354

 1     the Krajisnik trial under oath --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  I think this is referred to in the footnotes.

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:  Correct, Your Honours.

 4        Q.   20th of April, 2004.  This is a man who was detained at the fire

 5     station in Brcko, a firefighter, and at the bottom of the page he talks

 6     about one of the detainees called Milorad Sehovac.  "I think he was the

 7     commander of some sort of special unit with the JNA."  That's at lines 22

 8     to 23.  You can laugh later.

 9             MR. NICHOLLS:  Can we turn the page, please.

10        Q.   We see here on line 5 discussing the 10th of May, the witness was

11     asked if Major Sehovac came to the fire station.  And because of the time

12     I'm going to have to move quickly.  I'll summarise this rather than going

13     through it line by line because of the time.  But this witness stated

14     that you, Milorad Sehovac, came to the fire station where men were

15     called, were being held.  You demanded to know who had made a phone call

16     to Muslim-held territory.  You said that if these detained men didn't

17     tell you who had made the phone call, you would kill them all.  One of

18     the men, a Croat, Franjo Vugrincic, admitted he'd made the call.  You

19     questioned him.  You ordered that he be taken away.  You ordered that he

20     be killed.  The detainees heard a shot and they never saw him again.

21     That's the basis for the finding in the trial judgement I showed you.

22             Now, my question is:  Your statement taken a year ago and then

23     re-taken once you got to The Hague described your career in 1990, then it

24     skipped to August 1992, then it went all the way through to your

25     retirement and where you are now in Novi Sad and included your surgery,

Page 31355

 1     but you completely left out any mention of you ever being in Brcko in

 2     1992.  Did you do that because of this murder, which you are alleged to

 3     have ordered and which there has been evidence of before this Tribunal?

 4        A.   May I answer?  Mr. Prosecutor, first of all, I didn't skip

 5     anything.  In paragraph 2 of my statement I stated exactly the period

 6     when I was in Brcko, from mid-August 1991 until 15 August 1992.  Second,

 7     I don't know who gave that statement.  Anyone can say anything, but from

 8     9 May until 20th May I relocated the military department of Brcko to the

 9     village of Piparci [phoen], where it was based on the co-operative house

10     on the orders of the commander of the military department,

11     Milorad Gavric.  For that reason, or rather, because I had in my military

12     department a total of 16 people including two officers and 14 civilians,

13     and I had one unit of military police commanded by Zeljko Momic.  So I

14     couldn't be in two places at the same time and that statement is simply

15     inaccurate.

16             Furthermore, I worked in a military territorial body and I had

17     absolutely no powers over operative units at the time, JNA or TO or

18     whichever.  I maintain that this statement is false.

19        Q.   Could we have your statement up, please, that's 1D06901 --

20             JUDGE KWON:  If it is --

21             MR. NICHOLLS:  I'll be quick --

22             JUDGE KWON:  -- [overlapping speakers] -- shall we adjourn.

23             MR. NICHOLLS:  Whatever you want.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Given the trial after this we need to adjourn right

25     now.

Page 31356

 1             Mr. Sehovac, we'll adjourn for today and resume tomorrow at 9.00.

 2     In the meantime, I would like to advise you not to discuss with anybody

 3     else about your testimony.  Do you understand that, sir?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.  I understand.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  The hearing is adjourned.

 6                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.28 p.m.,

 7                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 13th day of

 8                           December, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.