1 Thursday, 13 December 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone. Judge Morrison is
7 indisposed today, so we will be sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis.
8 Good morning, Mr. Nicholls. Please continue.
9 MR. NICHOLLS: Good morning, Your Honours. Thank you.
10 Just preliminarily if I could correct an ambiguous line in the
11 transcript from yesterday. At page 31354 when I was summarising the
12 testimony of the witness in the Krajisnik trial, at lines 5 to 6
13 yesterday I said:
14 "At the bottom of the page he talks about one of the detainees
15 called Milorad Sehovac."
16 I didn't say that very well. What it says in the transcript is
17 that one of the detainees made a telephone call to military officer named
18 Milorad Sehovac, that's what it says in the transcript, not that one of
19 the detainees had that name.
20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
21 WITNESS: MILORAD SEHOVAC [Resumed]
22 [Witness answered through interpreter]
23 Cross-examination by Mr. Nicholls: [Continued]
24 Q. Good morning, sir. Can you hear me?
25 A. Good morning, I can hear you very well.
1 Q. Good. Now, yesterday when we left off I was about to ask you a
2 question and we ran out of time. But you said yesterday on page 31355 at
3 line 5:
4 "In paragraph 2 of my statement I stated exactly the period I was
5 in Brcko, from mid-August 1991 to 15 August 1992."
6 So could we please bring up your statement 1D06901. And I see
7 you've got a hard copy in front of you, is that right, of your statement?
8 A. Yes, it is.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. And I would like to state the following --
11 Q. Wait for the question -- wait for the question --
12 A. Please --
13 Q. The question is: Where in your statement in paragraph -- where
14 in paragraph 2 does it say you were in Brcko from -- at all, let alone in
15 1991 and 1992?
16 A. I issued orders. I handed over five documents, some of which are
17 originals. I handed them over to the Defence on the first day when I
18 arrived and they were uploaded in the e-court of The Hague Tribunal. In
19 addition to that, to tell the whole truth I can tell you that I have all
20 the five copies of those orders. One of them is the certificate of the
21 command of the East Bosnian Corps, which says expressly that from the
22 19th of May, 1991, until the 15th of August, 1992, I was a member of the
23 East Bosnia Corps.
24 Furthermore, I have the original of an order by the minister of
25 defence of Republika Srpska, General Subotic, by which I was appointed
1 the commander of the Sarajevo brigade. Furthermore, I enclosed the
2 original discharge letter of the military academy from the 3rd to 9 July,
3 1995. And the fourth document that I submitted is an order pursuant to
4 which I was transferred from the Main Staff of Republika Srpska to the
5 Army of Yugoslavia. And the fifth document that I enclosed is an order
6 by the Chief of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia dated 15
7 April 2002 by which I was pensioned off --
8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Sehovac --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and I handed all of that --
10 JUDGE KWON: I'm not sure if you understood the question. I'll
11 ask Mr. Nicholls to repeat his question. Please concentrate on answering
12 the question.
13 Yes, Mr. Nicholls, please.
14 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour.
15 Q. The question was: You said yesterday in this courtroom:
16 "In paragraph 2 of your statement I stated exactly the period
17 when I was in Brcko, from mid-August 1991 until 15 August 1992."
18 Understand, I'm not disputing that you were in Brcko during that
19 period. My question is: Where in paragraph 2 of your statement does it
20 say that? Do you agree with me, there's no mention of Brcko whatsoever
21 in your statement?
22 A. The only reason for that is the fact that as I followed the
23 situation, I saw that this was about Sarajevo, so I mentioned only those
24 duties that I discharged in the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.
25 Q. Okay. So then you agree with me -- stop --
1 A. And that is the exclusive reason why --
2 JUDGE KWON: So you agree that there's no mention about Brcko in
3 your statement?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 JUDGE KWON: The question -- Mr. Nicholls asked the question
6 because you answered differently. You said yesterday it is included in
7 your statement, which was not true now.
8 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
9 Q. And I see you have your statement in front of you. I noticed
10 yesterday when you were looking at it - and I didn't have time - that it
11 appeared to have a lot of handwriting on the back pages, a lot of notes.
12 Would you mind if I took a look at your statement, please, if I could
13 have the assistance of the usher. Well, you showed me the last page is
14 blank, but the back of page 1, for the record, has a lot of writing on it
15 including something about Brcko. The back of page 2 has a whole bunch of
16 stuff written about Brcko and I see Hrvati, Muslimani. The back of page
17 3 has a whole bunch of writing. The back of page 4 has about a third of
18 the page writing. The back of page 5 is full of writing about Sarajevo.
19 And there are other notes on here.
20 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, I would ask for a copy of this and I
21 would have a colleague who can read Serbian read take a look at it while
22 I continue my cross-examination. If I could make a photocopy with the
23 usher's help.
24 JUDGE KWON: Do you have any observation, Mr. Robinson?
25 MR. ROBINSON: No, Mr. President, I have no objection to that.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 MR. NICHOLLS: And if we need a break to copy it -- I don't mind
3 if he needs the statement he feels for the rest of the questions,
4 otherwise I can give him a clean copy of his statement in his language
5 that has no writing on it, though.
6 JUDGE KWON: We'll rise for five minutes.
7 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
8 --- Break taken at 9.11 a.m.
9 --- On resuming at 9.21 a.m.
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Nicholls, please continue.
11 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Okay, sir, just a couple more questions on this topic. Yesterday
13 at page 31355 you said that from 9 until 20th of May you were in - and we
14 have it written as Piparci - can you please spell that village where you
15 say you were. Is it Piperci?
16 A. Piperci, P-i-p-e-r-c-i, east of Brcko in the direction of
18 Q. All right. Thank you.
19 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I have 65 ter 24347, please, in e-court.
20 Q. And while that's coming up, I see you have your statement in
21 front of you again. I have no problem with that, but if you need to
22 refer to it let me know --
23 A. Mr. President, I can return this statement. I have no need for
25 Q. Let me finish. You can keep it. Just if you want to refer to
1 it, let me know so that we have a record of when you're testifying just
2 from your memory and when you need it to check something. Okay?
3 JUDGE KWON: Do you understand that, sir?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not understand that,
5 Your Honour, and I'll tell you why. I prepared myself for Sarajevo.
6 After I had an interview with the Prosecutor's office two days ago, I
7 wrote this down from memory about Brcko. In order to tell the truth
8 here, I tried to remember some events and some dates. I prepared myself
9 thoroughly for Sarajevo based on the materials that were available to me.
10 For the Defence, I prepared myself exclusively for Sarajevo. That's the
11 only reason.
12 JUDGE KWON: Very well, Mr. Sehovac. When did you write down
13 those handwritten notes on your statement?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the interview with the
15 Prosecutor. That conversation lasted for about 45 minutes. I thought
16 that it would be necessary for me to try and remember as much as I could.
17 At the end of the day I don't need this statement at all. You know,
18 there were a lot of events 20 years ago and you have to remember
19 everything. I changed two or three positions during the war and I was
20 taken by surprise when I heard that Brcko would also be discussed as part
21 of this Court's agenda.
22 JUDGE KWON: We don't have any problem with you keeping the
23 statement with you, but when you need to refer to your handwritten notes,
24 please let us know. That's the only point Mr. Nicholls was making.
25 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Judge.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. Now I
3 MR. NICHOLLS:
4 Q. Now, sir, this is a map of the area.
5 MR. NICHOLLS: And it wasn't on my list, Your Honours, but I
6 didn't know this name would come up. I've provided it to my colleagues.
7 Q. Sir, could you take a look at the map here. You said Piperci was
8 just east of Brcko. I think you'll be able to find it on this map.
9 Could you just circle it with a pen and the usher will help you do that.
10 A. [Marks]
11 Q. Okay. And that's, what, about 30 kilometres from Brcko roughly
12 or perhaps less?
13 A. If you start measuring from the entrance into the city, it's
14 about 20 kilometres. From the barracks, it's about 24 to 25 kilometres.
15 Q. All right. Thank you. You've answered the question. If you
16 could just put your name on this map at the bottom and put the date,
17 which is December 13th, 2012.
18 A. My full name or just my initials?
19 Q. I think your initials are fine.
20 A. This doesn't work. Today is the 13th.
21 Q. That's fine. Thank you.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, this will be next Prosecution exhibit.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6043, Your Honours.
24 MR. NICHOLLS:
25 Q. All right. I'm moving on to a different subject, sir, and that
1 is about Sarajevo, which you prepared yourself for, and I'm going to ask
2 you some questions beginning with paragraph 63 of your statement which
3 you can look at if you want to.
4 A. Of course.
5 Q. Now, as I understand it you gave your first statement to the
6 Defence approximately a year ago, December 2011; correct?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. And then when you came to The Hague you added to your statement
9 and that was recently, this month, when you arrived here; correct?
10 A. Yes. The reason why I added things --
11 Q. No, please, please --
12 A. -- was that I had prepared myself in the meantime and I arrived
13 with correct information.
14 Q. Okay. When I ask you a question that can be answered with either
15 yes or no like: Did you add material to your statement when you arrived?
16 The answer to that is, if you did do it, yes. And you don't need to then
17 explain more unless it's a -- unless it's a question that can't be
18 answered with yes or no. So I'll give you a chance to explain your
19 answers, but try to listen to the question and just answer the question I
20 ask and not go further.
21 Now, we were given a track changes version of your statement.
22 MR. NICHOLLS: And I could have the statement up, please, at
23 paragraph 63, which is page 19 in English, page 12 in the Serbian
25 Q. Now, the first -- I'll call it the first version of your
1 statement, the 2011 version, only included the first three sentences. So
2 it read only, and I'll read it:
3 "I was shown document 1D8436 - the document that I compiled is
4 about military targets in the centre of Hrasnica. In connection with
5 this I was shown document 65 ter 10693 which relates to the military
6 targets that I identified in document 1D8436. According to my
7 information, a modified aerial bomb was fired on the Aleksa Santic
8 school, where shells were produced for the use of the 1st K of the BH
10 MR. NICHOLLS: And could we bring that up, please. It's D02353.
11 Q. So I believe the correct number for the document you referred to.
12 That's the document that you were discussing, your document from August
13 1994, your analysis of defence line, correct, that's the document you
14 were referring to in your statement as of 2011?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. The order to launch the air bombs that you referred to was on 6
17 April 1995, eight months after your analysis. That's an eight-month gap
18 between the time of your analysis and the time of the order to launch,
19 but you still link those two documents. That's what your statement says;
21 A. I was not the one who issued the order to launch the air bomb --
22 Q. There may be --
23 A. -- that was --
24 Q. There may be a translation error. I know you didn't issue the
25 order to launch the air bomb. What I'm saying is according to your
1 statement these documents related, even though there's an eight-month gap
2 between your analysis and the order to launch the air bomb, which was not
3 issued by you.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. Now you arrive in The Hague one year later and we look at
6 the rest of paragraph 63, the widely expanded story you have on the
7 reasoning for the launching of the air bomb on Hrasnica. And you have
8 now included additional documents P5981, document D782, which you say
9 sheds light on the order from General Milosevic for the fire of the air
10 bomb. And you've concluded that you have information that the fired air
11 bomb landed near the Aleksa Santic school where ammunition was
12 manufactured, tying it back to your statement a year earlier. Where did
13 you get your information from that the air bomb landed near the
14 Aleksa Santic school? That's not clear from your statement.
15 A. Well, look, from my observation post you can see all of Hrasnica
16 almost. We heard that there was a launch and we saw it. Also we heard
17 from the corps command that the bomb has -- had landed in the sector of
18 the target. And thirdly, something that I would like to emphasize,
19 nothing changed from the moment when I sent my analysis to the moment the
20 bomb was launched. All that time ammunition was being manufactured
21 there; in other words, by observation and through information from the
22 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. At the moment when the bomb was launched, my
23 brigade had suffered very strong attacks from the Hrasnica sector that
24 had lasted for the two or three previous days. I don't know whether you
25 know that during combat activities --
1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Sehovac, could you concentrate on answering the
2 question. The question was whether you -- where you got your information
3 from that the air bomb landed near Aleksa Santic school.
4 MR. NICHOLLS:
5 Q. And you've answered that. Thank you, sir. So just so I
6 understand, from line of sight from your position when the air bomb
7 landed you could see Hrasnica and see where the bomb had landed?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So then you would have been able to see immediately that it had
10 not hit the school which was the supposed target; correct?
11 A. Well, from a distance of some 3 kilometres according to what I
12 saw it was 20 to 30 metres away from it, but you really can't pin-point
13 the distance to the last metre.
14 Q. So to answer my question, the answer is: Yes, you could see that
15 it missed the target?
16 A. No. I could see that it landed in the immediate vicinity of the
18 Q. And you couldn't see that the school was still standing? You
19 just told me:
20 "According to what I saw, it was 20 to 30 metres away from it."
21 So -- and our position is that it was a lot farther away from it
22 than that, it was 148 metres roughly. But answer the question: You
23 could see that it had not hit the school; correct?
24 A. Correct, but it landed in the vicinity of the school.
25 Q. Okay.
1 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I have D00782.
2 Q. Now, this document you refer to in paragraph 63 saying:
3 "This was shown to me," by the Defence, "sheds light on the order
4 from General Milosevic for the fire of the air bomb as a response from
5 enemy fire..."
6 This order for artillery is for Lukavac 95; correct?
7 A. Just a moment. Please bear with me.
8 JUDGE KWON: Probably you can read "Lukavac 95" on the right top
9 part of the document.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the year is 1995 and the
11 combat was going on on the Igman-Trnovo axis. That's what the commander
12 stated in there.
13 MR. NICHOLLS:
14 Q. Thank you. And it's dated 4 April 1995. You say it relates to
15 the order to launch the air bomb on 6 April. I think we can agree this
16 Lukavac 95 document says nothing whatsoever about the Aleksa Santic
17 primary school. It talks only about neutralising the activity of the
18 enemy artillery and mortars. Correct? This has nothing to do with your
19 document from eight months earlier; correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like P01201, that's the 6th of April order.
22 All right. This is the order we've been talking about. It's -- yes,
23 thank you. It's an order, it's a pretty clear order, and it gives the
24 reason for the order. In the first paragraph Muslim forces have been
25 attacking from the positions of the 2nd Sarajevo Light Infantry
1 Brigade ... et cetera, several of our soldiers and a number of our
2 civilians have been wounded.
3 "In order to thwart the enemy and give them a warning so they are
4 forced to accept this truce, I hereby order:
5 "The Ilidza Brigade will immediately prepare a launcher with an
6 aerial bomb and transport the bomb for launching.
7 "Select the highest-yielding target in Hrasnica or
8 Sokolovic Kolonija, where there will be the greatest human and material
10 So first this order is not even limited to Hrasnica, is it, and
11 where the air bomb should be launched? It also allows for
12 Sokolovic Kolonija; correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Again, therefore, having nothing to do with your order from eight
15 months earlier. Now, we've already established that this air bomb missed
16 the school. Do you know what damage it did as you sit here today? Do
17 you know who it killed and what it destroyed?
18 A. First of all, I did not issue any orders. I sent my proposal to
19 the corps command for the use of an air bomb. Second of all, I don't
20 know who it killed. I have some unofficial information that, inter alia,
21 the soldiers who secured the command post and the factory that
22 manufactured shells for the 1st Corps, that they were also killed. That
23 among the casualties there were also soldiers, and I'm not contesting
24 that there may have been collateral damage among civilians.
25 Q. All right. First of all, I apologise for calling your document
1 an order. You're right, it was an analysis. I misspoke.
2 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I have P01798, please.
3 Q. This is a report of the forensic on-site investigation of that
4 air bomb. It gives the location. And if you look at this, it lists
5 Ziba Custovic, that's a woman, a Muslim woman, that was killed and the
6 persons who were injured and shows that two homes were destroyed and 11
7 houses damaged. Now, our position is that this location is approximately
8 150 metres from the school. Do you accept that, that these were homes
9 destroyed 150 metres from the target?
10 A. Shall I answer? Well, you see, Fikret Prevljak was the commander
11 of the 104th Brigade. His duty was to eliminate civilians from his
12 deployment sector. Obviously he didn't do that. Second of all, at that
13 time I was engaged with the 4th Motorised Brigade in infantry attacks.
14 This was fought by the Ilidza Brigade, and I'm not contesting any of the
15 things that I see written in this document here.
16 Q. Thank you. Now could I have P01201 back up, please. Try to
17 follow me, sir. If you look at this order from General Milosevic, if we
18 follow the plain meaning of it, it says launch a - an - aerial bomb, one.
19 "Select the highest yielding target in Hrasnica or
20 Sokolovic Kolonija where there will be the greatest human and material
21 losses" --
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I want to intervene on the
23 interpretation or translation. Esteemed Mr. Nicholls said "plain
24 meaning" and in Serbian we did not get a proper interpretation. The word
25 "plain" was omitted and only "meaning" was mentioned.
1 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Mr. Karadzic. I'll ask the question
2 again then.
3 Q. The plain - or clear and literal - meaning of this document is to
4 launch one aerial bomb at a target in Hrasnica or Sokolovic Kolonija
5 where there will be the greatest human and material losses.
6 Now, if that was the meaning and the purpose of the order, the
7 order was accomplished, the mission was accomplished; correct?
8 A. That is correct. However, there were military targets in
9 Hrasnica and in Sokolovic Kolonija. In Hrasnica those were in the
10 school, training of the police and production of shells, the command post
11 in the direct vicinity, and artillery weapons --
12 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is speaking too fast.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe these are legitimate
14 military targets and that's what I wrote in my proposal to the corps
15 commander and that was on the screen recently.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Sokolovic Kolonija is missing from
17 the record, when he was enumerating what targets existed in
18 Sokolovic Kolonija.
19 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is speaking too fast.
20 MR. NICHOLLS:
21 Q. Try to answer your questions a bit slower, please, sir.
22 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE KWON: No, do you confirm that you mentioned
24 Sokolovic Kolonija?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 JUDGE KWON: And for the benefit of the Chamber understanding
2 your testimony more correctly, please slow down when answering the
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour.
5 MR. NICHOLLS: So -- thank you.
6 Q. Exactly in your last answer there were military targets in this
7 area. And you're a career military man from 1974 through 2002. If the
8 order was to destroy military targets, if the order was to stop the -- to
9 hit military mortars of the ABiH, then normally what happens is you keep
10 firing until that military target is destroyed. We've seen video
11 here - if I can't read the P number - P930, which shows the destruction
12 of the Marsal Tito barracks. And we can see a shell landing nearby,
13 there's target acquisitions, the shells get closer, the target is found,
14 the Marsal Tito barracks, a completely legitimate military target, is
15 obliterated by precise firing. That didn't happen here. You could see
16 that the target was missed. If the object was to hit the school where
17 weapons were being made, why didn't you fire again and hit the school?
18 Not you but the 1st Brigade.
19 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I was not the one who launched that bomb. I did
20 not determine the elements. I only made a proposal of legal military
21 targets. I think this question is superfluous.
22 Q. Okay.
23 A. I could only observe where it landed.
24 Q. I'll take that answer. Have you ever seen an order -- this is a
25 hypothetical. There's a sniper on a roof firing at your troops. Have
1 you ever seen an order that says: Go after that sniper, take one shot at
2 him with one bullet, and then stop?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I want the interpretation to be
4 correct. Shoot him with only round and then stop. The question cannot
5 be answered properly by the witness if the question is not interpreted
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So you want me to imagine a sniper
8 on a roof and myself giving an order to my sniper to hit him with one
9 bullet? I can imagine that.
10 MR. NICHOLLS:
11 Q. And then if you miss the sniper, you just let him keep continuing
12 firing at your troops and wouldn't take another shot at it; that's your
13 answer? Let the military target that's threatening you continue to
15 A. If the sniper is destroying my personnel and inflicting losses, I
16 would order continued action until the target is neutralised or
18 MR. NICHOLLS: No further questions. Thank you.
19 And just for the record, the exhibits yesterday which I showed,
20 the excerpt from the Krajisnik judgement and the transcript of the
21 testimony in that case, I do not propose to admit those. I think I read
22 the relevant portions into the record and I think my summary of the
23 transcript was fair.
24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, you have re-examination?
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellency. Thank you.
3 Good morning, Your Excellencies. Good morning to everyone.
4 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
5 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Colonel Sehovac.
6 A. Good morning, Mr. President.
7 Q. The testimony of one fireman from Brcko was put to you yesterday.
8 That fireman stated allegedly that you had ordered some murders. He
9 testified on 20th April 2004. That's on page 93 of yesterday's LiveNote.
10 Did you after that date have an interview with the OTP; and if you did,
11 do you remember where?
12 A. I didn't have any interviews with the Prosecution, so we cannot
13 discuss any dates.
14 Q. Thank you. Did you have any encounters, talks, with the
16 A. Yes, here in The Hague roughly in 1997. I was invited by I think
17 he was called senior prosecutor, Mr. Barry Hogan. He invited me twice
18 for talks at the offices of the Prosecution in Belgrade and he asked me
19 to be a Prosecution witness in the trial of General Dragomir Milosevic;
20 however, that did not happen.
21 Q. In what year did you meet with the Prosecution in Belgrade?
22 A. I believe it was July 1997. Please do not hold it against me. I
23 don't remember exactly, but they must have records with exact dates.
24 Q. I would now like to have played T000-5525-2-A.
25 JUDGE KWON: Do you have a 65 ter number?
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This was an audio recording. I'm
2 not sure. We'll provide a number now. We expected that this would be a
4 JUDGE KWON: What is it related to?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it is related to the first
6 questions about Brcko and the witness's credibility.
7 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, we should look at the
9 date and year of the interview. There is also an English translation in
10 parallel. Could it be played from -- first of all, let's hear the date
11 and then we'll move to the passage that is important to us.
12 [Audio-clip played]
13 "Okay. I'll just repeat the last question --"
14 "The time is 9.27 a.m., still the 11th of August, 2006. The tape
15 is being started again at..."
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Did you hear that the date was 11 August 1996 -- 2006?
18 JUDGE KWON: Shall we play that part again?
19 [Audio-clip played]
20 "The time is 9.27 a.m., still the 11th of August, 2006. The tape
21 is being started again after the phone has been unplugged.
22 "Okay. I'll just repeat" --
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Do you agree or rather --
25 THE INTERPRETER: There is a noise from which we couldn't hear.
1 JUDGE KWON: The interpreter's couldn't --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Somebody's headphones are too close to the
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Did you hear on the recording that the date was 11 August 2006?
6 A. Yes, yes, I heard that.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now listen to starting
9 from 5.20. to 7.56.
10 [audio-clip played]
11 "... and recommendations. I have a request to you or demand,
12 [indiscernible] as you wish. First I am a suspect. I would like to know
13 what am I suspected for. I would like -- what events am I suspected? I
14 would like to know what time-period am I suspected? Fifteen years have
15 gone since the beginning of the war and twelve years since the abolition
16 of the war. I would like to give complete and full answers respecting
17 you and the Tribunal, and therefore I would like to ask you to give me --
18 allow me certain time for preparation so I could give true, adequate, and
20 "Okay. I'll try to -- I'll try answer your three questions. As
21 far as what you are suspected of, it's a complicated matter but as I
22 tried to explain the first time that we met, we are not suspecting you of
23 any crimes. The Tribunal has no intentions of indicting you. The
24 Tribunal is not actively investigating you in particular."
25 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Karadzic or somebody please remove
1 their headphones. They're too close to the microphones. The
2 interpreters cannot work.
3 JUDGE KWON: Somebody's headphone is close to the microphone so
4 that it makes some noises. The interpreters couldn't hear you,
5 Mr. Karadzic.
6 THE ACCUSED: I change the side. Anyway, I am changing it very
7 often. Is that better?
8 JUDGE KWON: I hope so. Please continue.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. So, Colonel Sehovac, two years after the testimony that was put
11 to you yesterday you had an interview with the OTP in which you were told
12 that you were not suspected of any crime and there was no investigation
13 against you; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you. During this interview in Belgrade in 2006, were you
16 asked anything about Brcko?
17 A. I was not asked anything because I asked for time to prepare and
18 that time was granted; however, that did not happen. Still, I was warned
19 that everything I say to the Prosecutors of the Tribunal would be copied
20 to Zagreb, to Sarajevo, and to Belgrade, to the competent judicial
21 authorities that deal with this type of crime. That's all I have to say,
22 Mr. President.
23 Q. After that, did you have any other interviews with the
24 Prosecution or encounters or talks - call them whatever you like?
25 A. No, not until two days ago here with Mr. Nicholls I believe his
1 name is.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I tender this exhibit and we
4 will provide a transcript? 1D6831. We'll include the audio and the
5 transcript or just the audio, as you wish.
6 JUDGE KWON: I'm just asking you whether it's really necessary,
7 given that it's already reflected in our transcript?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If that is so, then we can proceed
9 the way you said.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Now I would like to call --
12 [Defence counsel confer]
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- 1D6825 in e-court.
14 JUDGE KWON: Let's switch to e-court.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. While we are waiting, Colonel, you said earlier today that a year
17 ago you handed over to the Prosecution -- to the Defence documents
18 relating to your appointment and service in Brcko; correct?
19 A. Yes, yes, I handed them over.
20 Q. Thank you. We are waiting for the document and for the
21 interpretation too. Can you tell us what this document is?
22 A. This document is a certificate from the military post 7102,
23 that's the command of the Eastern Bosnia Corps, and it states that I --
24 could we move the text to the left, please - that I spent in military
25 post 7410, Brcko, the period from 19 May 1992 to 15 August 1992, as I
1 said in my statement. It's signed by Major-General Novica Simic, who was
2 the commander.
3 Q. Thank you. Did you say to the Defence team that you had been in
4 Brcko and what did the Defence team say to you on that issue?
5 A. Yes, I told the Defence team that I expected to discuss only
6 Sarajevo and we had no special preparation for Brcko.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I tender this document?
9 JUDGE KWON: We'll mark it for identification.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D6825 receives number D2636,
11 Your Honours.
12 JUDGE KWON: Just one clarification. Could the parties take a
13 look at line 17 on page 2 of the -- of today's transcript. To the
14 question of Mr. Nicholls:
15 "Where in your statement in paragraph 2 does it say you were in
17 And he answered with this:
18 "I issued orders. I handed over five documents, some of which
19 are originals."
20 By saying "I issued orders," I meant -- I take it that he meant
21 to say that he handed over the five appointment orders. Would you agree
22 in so understanding, Mr. Nicholls? Or shall I clarify with the witness?
23 MR. NICHOLLS: I think that's probably right, but I would prefer
24 to clarify it, Your Honour, of what he handed over.
25 JUDGE KWON: Did you understand the question? The transcript
1 says that you said:
2 "I issued orders ..."
3 What did you mean by saying "orders" or issuing orders? Do you
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It must be an error in
6 interpretation. I handed over orders on appointment, some of which are
7 in the original --
8 JUDGE KWON: That's --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- orders from my superiors.
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. That's sufficient. Thank you.
11 Let's continue, Mr. Karadzic.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency, for
13 this clarification. It's really useful.
14 Can we now see 65 ter 24260.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Did you experience problems in Brcko with the forces that were
17 active there?
18 A. Yes, Mr. President, especially with the paramilitaries and
19 especially in the early days of the war.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see paragraph 3 a bit larger
21 in Serbian.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. And could you please explain what was going on and why in the
24 sector of Brcko --
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. --
1 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't want to object now, but I assume that this
2 is -- this does not arise from my cross unless he's going to bring it
3 somehow back to the cross. I mean the question of paramilitaries in
4 Brcko and the problems he had do not arise from my questions.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I tend to agree with your observation.
6 But can I hear from you, Mr. Robinson?
7 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. The cross-examination
8 directly dealt with people who accused this witness of crimes, and I
9 think the witness is allowed -- should be allowed to explain exactly what
10 the situation was in Brcko and how, in fact, he was not guilty of any of
11 these crimes. And we think that this goes towards showing that.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber will allow the question to be put.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Please, Colonel, tell us, is it true that you had been arrested
17 along with president of the municipality of Brcko, members of the
18 Executive Council, and demands were made to free those people who had
19 been arrested by our police forces?
20 A. That's correct, Mr. President, because we opposed paramilitary
21 forces, especially myself and the authorities of Brcko municipality.
22 They arrested me and the president of the municipality and they held us
23 hostage. And they would have probably killed both of us if it had not
24 been for the protest of Priest Slavko who interceded. I want to
25 emphasize that this was in July, the month when you sent a special unit
1 headed by Dragan Andan, who we met with the military police, and started
2 cleansing paramilitaries in town. We disarmed them later and we drove
3 them to the border with Serbia and expelled them from Brcko. Do I need
4 to clarify more?
5 Q. It's enough for now. Just tell us one more thing. You heard
6 what is included in the Krajisnik judgement. Who, to the best of your
7 knowledge, was the armed force at the time able to commit the crimes
8 discussed by that fireman?
9 A. Paramilitaries. To be quite clear, at that point in time in
10 Brcko, there was a group of 20 of Arkan's men, about 30 men who were
11 Captain Dragan's unit, then there were the Red Berets, then there was a
12 group of eight to nine people from Zbor [phoen], and finally the
13 so-called milicija Krajina arrived in Brcko. We had to deal with all of
14 them and we cleansed them. Enormous problems we had, both we and the
15 government organs. It was only after a curfew was imposed, after
16 check-points were placed at exit and entry points into important
17 facilities. Also when we banned weapons in government buildings, no one
18 was allowed to enter government buildings if armed, then paramilitary
19 units - and I would particularly like to point that out - attacked the
20 police station four times. Now, what was the objective? The sealing of
21 documents, passports, traffic licences, driver's licences, and so on. In
22 such a situation we received assistance from the Supreme Command, this
23 special unit, and that is how we managed to cleanse Brcko with the
24 assistance of our forces.
25 Q. Thank you, Colonel, sir. Now we are going to leave the topic of
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this document please be
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber who it was that signed
6 this report, this regular combat report?
7 A. I cannot see it very well, Dragutin Ilic,
8 Commander Colonel Dragutin Ilic, he's the commander of the
9 Eastern Bosnian Corps.
10 JUDGE KWON: We'll admit as Exhibit D2637.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. We will now go back to the Sarajevo period. Today you were asked
14 about the time when you found out that in Sokolovic Kolonija, Hrasnica
15 there were military targets, weapons, artillery, and so on. When was it
16 that you first found out that -- actually, when did you first find out
17 about the strength, infrastructure, and weaponry of the 4th Brigade of
18 the BH army under the command of Fikret Prevljak?
19 A. Mr. President, I arrived in Vojkovici on the 15th of August.
20 From the 15th of August until the 18th of August, I got to know the
21 command, the combat deployment of our forces, the support forces, then
22 how the logistics functioned, then how the communications and command
23 functioned, and the unit as a whole. In addition to that -- okay. In
24 addition to that, to the extent to which this was accessible to them,
25 especially in the front, I was made aware of the strength, disposition,
1 and structure of the enemy in front of us. I was also made aware of the
2 deployment of support resources. There were four firing groups,
3 battalion firing groups, and the brigade artillery group. That is what
4 I'd have to say, Mr. President.
5 Q. Thank you. Please --
6 MR. NICHOLLS: Excuse me.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
8 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry to interrupt. Just to correct Mr. Karadzic,
9 he says at line 27 [sic], line 3:
10 "Today you were asked about the time when you found out that in
11 Sokolac ... there were military targets ... and so on. When was it that
12 you first found out ... about the infrastructure ... of the brigade ...?"
13 I didn't ask about the time that he first found out about
14 military targets. I just talked about -- asked him about his analysis
15 from 1994. But I didn't ask him when did you first find out that there
16 were military targets in Hrasnica, et cetera.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may respond --
18 JUDGE KWON: Let's go on. But you pointed out the time when he
19 wrote down that analysis.
20 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes.
21 JUDGE KWON: So on that basis it's fair enough to ask the timing.
22 Let's proceed.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Colonel, sir, from 1992 onwards, if you knew what all the things
25 that Prevljak had were, why did you not target them every day; or rather,
1 when did you target them and for what reasons?
2 A. Not -- we did not target them every day. We targeted them at the
3 moments when they fired at us.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 A. There's another reason too. We were trying to save ammunition
6 because our ammunition resources were insufficient.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D6272, could we please have that
8 in e-court. And I would like to ask the usher to help the Colonel with
9 the use of an electronic pen. Page 3 now, please.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could it be enlarged a bit?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could it --
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Actually, could you first tell us what this map depicts according
14 to what you can read from it?
15 A. This map shows the deployment of units on this map.
16 Q. Thank you. Does it show anything else?
17 A. It shows units that are involved in defence and those that are
19 Q. Thank you. Whose units are attacking and whose units are
20 involved in defence?
21 A. I really cannot say. Could it be zoomed in? I can barely see
22 it, it's so illegible.
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
24 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't understand how this arises from my cross,
25 which units were attacking where in the wider area.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Then I'm just going to
2 restrict myself to asking Colonel Sehovac to mark for us here the area --
3 JUDGE KWON: No, just tell us how this arises from the
4 cross-examination of Nicholls. What are you addressing -- what part of
5 cross are you addressing now?
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it has to do with the
7 position of that brigade that was suffering attacks or that was inferior,
8 rather, and that was in a position to defend itself, and that was
9 challenged, or rather, it was brought into question whether that was
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Should I draw this?
12 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, I'm not sure whether it arises from
13 the cross.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE BAIRD: Mr. Nicholls, can you reply to Dr. Karadzic's
16 submission, please.
17 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes. It does not arise from the cross. I think
18 what Dr. Karadzic is probably referring to is the order which said that
19 the 2nd Brigade was coming under fire, which is given in the 6th of April
20 order to fire the air bomb. And I'm not contesting that the
21 2nd Sarajevo Light Infantry Brigade was coming under fire, if that's what
22 he is alleging.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber agrees with Mr. Nicholls' observation.
25 Please move on to your next topic, Mr. Karadzic.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. My next topic is to
2 thank Colonel Sehovac for everything, including this testimony.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Colonel Sehovac. That concludes your
5 evidence. On behalf of the Chamber I would like to thank you for your
6 coming to The Hague to give it. Now you are free to go, but we will rise
7 all together.
8 The Chamber will have a break for half an hour and resume at
10 [The witness withdrew]
11 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.
12 [The witness entered court]
13 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
14 JUDGE KWON: Would the witness take the solemn declaration.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
16 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
17 WITNESS: MILORAD KATIC
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Katic. Please be seated and make
20 yourself comfortable.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
23 THE ACCUSED: Thank you, Excellency.
24 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
25 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Katic.
1 A. Good day, Mr. President.
2 Q. Did you give a statement to the Defence team?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I have a request for you and for myself, that we pause between my
5 questions and your answers so that we would spare our interpreters. It
6 is so important for us to have every word interpreted and we want them to
7 be able to do that.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 169628, could we please have
9 that -- 1D6908. Thank you.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Is that the statement, the one that you see before you on the
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you. Have you read it and do you see that it correctly
15 reflects everything you said?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Thank you. Did you sign the statement?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you. If I were to put the same questions today, would your
20 answers contained in this statement basically be the same?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I would like to
24 tender the 92 ter package, please.
25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson.
1 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. Actually, we're going to
2 tender only three of these associated exhibits. First of all, 1D6905 and
3 6906, and we would like to have permission to add those to our 65 ter
4 list as they weren't available to us at the time we filed that list. And
5 then 1D08574 we'll also be tendering. The others we will not be
7 JUDGE KWON: As regards 1D8574, if you look at paragraph 14 of
8 the witness's statement, he refers to item 9 and 13 of that document.
9 How voluminous was -- is that document?
10 MR. ROBINSON: It's a nine-page document.
11 JUDGE KWON: So you are tendering in its entirety?
12 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, if the Prosecution wants it to be redacted,
13 we'll do that, but it didn't seem necessary.
14 JUDGE KWON: First -- shall we give the number for the statement
16 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D6908 receives number D2651,
17 Your Honours.
18 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, Ms. McKenna. Do you have any
19 objection to admitting in its entirety 1D8574?
20 MS. McKENNA: Good morning, Your Honours. I have no objection to
21 the admission of that document in its entirety. I would --
22 JUDGE KWON: Then we'll give the number for that.
23 MS. McKENNA: Thank you.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D8574 receives number D2652,
25 Your Honours.
1 JUDGE KWON: And then we have two documents, 6905 and 6906. Do
2 we have English translation for those documents?
3 Ms. McKenna, were you able to see the English translation?
4 MS. McKENNA: I wasn't, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE KWON: So -- I couldn't see either, so in order for
6 Mr. Karadzic to tender these two documents I would like him to lead live
7 with the witness.
8 Would you like to add anything, Ms. McKenna?
9 MS. McKENNA: Thank you, Your Honour. If I may just add in
10 paragraph 6 of Mr. Katic's statement, he refers to paragraph 39 of a
11 previous statement. I think this is probably simply a typographical
12 error. But I would request that Mr. Karadzic clarify this with the
13 witness live.
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Fair enough.
15 Yes, Mr. Robinson.
16 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, if you could look at 6905,
17 it's just a list so do you need a translation?
18 JUDGE KWON: Shall we upload it?
19 MS. McKENNA: If I may add --
20 JUDGE KWON: Let us see the document first. Oh. Can you read
21 the document, Mr. Robinson? It's in Cyrillic.
22 MR. ROBINSON: Yeah, I realise that, but I -- in other words, you
23 would like the names in English?
24 JUDGE KWON: Well, if we are going to tender those, we have to
25 read the names at least. I can read some of them.
1 MR. ROBINSON: I know you can.
2 JUDGE KWON: But not the all of them.
3 MR. ROBINSON: I see. Okay. We can do that.
4 JUDGE KWON: Or -- but, yeah, he can put some foundation
5 questions about the title and then we can mark them for identification.
6 Where were we? I've forgotten. Yes, do you have any observation
7 as to the observation by Ms. McKenna that Mr. Karadzic need to clarify
8 live as to paragraph 39 referred to in para 6?
9 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, I think that's a good idea. He can do that.
10 JUDGE KWON: Then, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.
11 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, I'm advised that the Serbian
12 version of paragraph 6 doesn't refer to paragraph 39 and apparently it's
13 a mistake in the English translation. So it wouldn't be of much use to
14 clarify it with the witness.
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
16 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 Now I would like to read out the summary of Mr. Milorad Katic's
19 statement. I'll read it out in English.
20 [In English] Milorad Katic was born on 26 of January 1954 in
21 Sarajevo. In June 1979 he graduated from the mechanical engineering
22 faculty at the University of Sarajevo and he started to work at the Put
23 Sarajevo construction company. He was conscripted to military service in
24 December 1979 and completed his service in November 1980. After the Put
25 Sarajevo construction company, Mr. Katic worked for Famos factory, and
1 later on for the similar factory Pretis, as a director of one production
2 department. He was a member of the SDS board in Novo Sarajevo
3 municipality in the period between 1990 and April 1992. From the
4 outbreak of the war until 13th of March, 1993, he served as a soldier in
5 the 3rd Battalion which became part of the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised
6 Brigade of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. On 13th of March, 1993,
7 Mr. Katic was appointed president of the Assembly in Srpsko Novo
9 In the summer of 1992, chaos reigned in the political system in
10 BH and had been -- BH had been dissolved. When the Serbian organs came
11 to power, crimes of all kinds were reduced to a minimum, an undertaking
12 which was supported by Dr. Karadzic. When Milorad Katic became president
13 of Serbian Novo Sarajevo municipality, he enforced guarantees of pension
14 and humanitarian aid to both Serbs and Muslims alike. Citizens of both
15 Muslim and Croatian ethnicities were elected as commissioners in their
16 respective buildings and they distributed humanitarian aid.
17 Grbavica was constantly under artillery and sniper fire from the
18 Muslim forces of the city of Sarajevo and there were a large number of
19 civilian victims of all ethnicities on Grbavica and other parts of Serb
20 Novo Sarajevo. Milorad Katic's administration buried all victims,
21 regardless of their ethnicity in the same graveyard and each grave was
22 recorded. Milorad Katic states that there was no persecution of
23 non-Serbian civilians, there was no, and that -- at the 1.500 people of
24 non-Serb ethnicity who remained living in Grbavica until the end of war
25 which testifies -- which confirms that there was no persecution.
1 Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik held meetings with other leaders
2 of municipalities throughout the Republika Srpska. Neither the
3 leadership of Pale nor Mr. Karadzic ever ordered that water and
4 electricity supply be cut off to the Muslim part of the city. There were
5 two public kitchens in Grbavica in which two meals were distributed daily
6 to everyone, regardless of their ethnicity.
7 The Serb part of Novo Sarajevo and parts of Ilidza did not
8 receive adequate about the electricity. The Muslim side, however,
9 received far more extensive humanitarian aid from the international
10 organisations and the UNHCR. By handing over the control of the airport
11 to the UN in June 1992, the Serbs could no longer control the
12 distribution of the humanitarian aid.
13 Milorad Katic has never heard of a Variant A and B paper, nor was
14 he aware of a meeting held in Holiday Inn hotel where the instructions
15 were allegedly distributed.
16 And that would be the summary. I would like to pose few
17 confession to Mr. Katic, first concerning that document.
18 [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D6905 in e-court.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Mr. Katic, could you please read the title and could you explain
21 to the Trial Chamber what the document is about?
22 A. Yes, I will do that, Mr. President.
23 "People buried in the Catholic plot between 1992 and 1996."
24 This document refers to the individuals who were killed or either
25 died of natural causes in the territory of the municipality of Serbian
1 Sarajevo, predominantly in Kovacici and in Grbavica. Those individuals
2 were either killed by shelling or by sniper fire or, as I said at the
3 beginning, they died of natural causes. I received this information from
4 the St. Mark's burial public company in Sarajevo, or rather, in Serbian
5 Sarajevo. During the war, the name of that company was Sons [phoen].
6 Q. Thank you. Can we also take a look at the second and third pages
7 to see if you have any remarks. While we're waiting for this to happen,
8 Mr. Katic, who bore the cost of the burials of those who could not pay
9 themselves? Maybe listen to the floor for that name?
10 A. The costs were bore by the local community. In this specific
11 case it was the municipality of Serbian new Sarajevo.
12 Q. Was a distinction made between citizens of different religious
13 and ethnicity affiliations? Or were costs born for everybody?
14 A. The costs were born for everybody. There were Serbs who did not
15 have enough means, so the costs were born for the burial of Serbs,
16 Muslims, and Croats. I would like to add something about this document.
17 All those people were buried in Lukavica cemetery. They all had their
18 plots and everybody can tell exactly where the Orthodox plot is, where
19 the Catholic plot is, and where the Muslim plot is.
20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Katic. You came into power -- I apologise.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, did you decide
22 that this should be admitted or do I have to tender it for admission?
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll mark it for identification pending
24 English translation as D -- Exhibit D2653.
25 Yes, Mr. Robinson.
1 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, given that the next document
2 is the same format, can it be --
3 JUDGE KWON: Let us -- let the witness read the title at least so
4 that we can understand.
5 MR. ROBINSON: Very good. Thank you.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D6906.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Could you please read the title of this document.
9 A. "Individuals Buried in the Muslim Plot Between 1992 and 1996."
10 Q. Thank you. What were the causes of death by and large when it
11 comes to these people?
12 A. Just like with the previous document, I would like to repeat with
13 regard to this document. The causes of death were either natural or
14 killing by shelling or sniping.
15 Q. Again I would like to look at the following two pages, page 2 and
16 3, to see if the witness has anything to add. And while we are waiting,
17 Mr. Katic, did the families of these people know exactly where they were
18 buried? Did they have to look for them at all?
19 A. This is correct. They knew exactly where these people were
20 buried because there was quite a clear distinction between Orthodox
21 Muslim and Catholic plots in that cemetery in Lukavica. After the Dayton
22 Accords, families came and they could if they wanted to do so exhume the
23 mortal remains of their family members who were buried there.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm tendering this document as
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, this will be marked for identification as
3 Exhibit D2654.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Just one more question
5 for Mr. Katic.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Mr. Katic, is it true that both in the party and in the
8 municipality -- I apologise. Strike that.
9 You said you came into power in the municipality in 1993. What
10 was the reason for the change in the composition of authorities in
11 Novo Sarajevo?
12 A. Mr. President, the authorities always wanted to do what was the
13 best for the municipality at that moment. However, my personal opinion
14 is that what the previous authorities did was not enough to prevent all
15 the irregularities that were rife in the municipality at that moment.
16 Those included the distribution of humanitarian aid, the distribution of
17 pension moneys, and as I heard many times, people of other ethnic groups
18 were not treated like Serb -- Serbs were. They had to leave Grbavica.
19 They were persecuted and things like that. And that's why I became
20 president on the 13th of March, 1993, I became the president of the
21 municipality of Novo Sarajevo. New authorities, young officials, are
22 probably more propulsive and we were able -- better suited to do what we
23 had to do so that all the inhabitants of the municipality received
24 humanitarian aid, pensions, and everything else that befits a human
1 Q. And what about those who were in power before you, did they
2 participate in crimes or, as you put it yourself, did they -- could they
3 not prevent those crimes? Were younger people sought to prevent that?
4 Were some active mistakes committed by the previous government in the
6 MS. McKENNA: I'm sorry, if I may object to that question. It
7 was phrased in a leading manner.
8 [Defence counsel confer]
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will repeat and rephrase.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. The authorities before you, were they involved in the commission
12 of crimes themselves?
13 MS. McKENNA: I would also object on the ground that it's beyond
14 the scope of the witness's statement and 65 ter summary.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE KWON: If the accused is going to lead live with the
17 witness, can he not ask the question clarifying his statement which is
18 contained in his statement, for example, the reason for his election at
19 that time, et cetera, Ms. McKenna?
20 MS. McKENNA: Your Honour, my understanding would be that the
21 evidence should still fall within the remit of the 65 ter summary, that
22 is, the topics that were notified to the Prosecution; but we'll defer to
24 JUDGE KWON: He was introduced as partial Rule 92 ter witness and
25 then he can cover any topics as far as is relevant and notified in
1 general terms, so I don't see any problem. So I will allow Mr. Karadzic
2 to continue.
4 Probably you need to pose your question again, but please do so
5 in a not-leading manner.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. My question, therefore, is this: What was the sin of the
9 previous government? Was it crimes or their inability to contain the
11 A. In my statement I stated that at that time I was a soldier in
12 Zlatiste. More specifically, I never heard that the previous authorities
13 had done something that would have lead to the change of authorities.
14 The authorities before me in Novo Sarajevo never committed any crimes. I
15 claim that. And I believe that as far as your question is concerned more
16 specifically, that they were not removed and replaced because they had
17 been involved in some unlawful dealings, but simply they did not pay
18 sufficient attention to the things such as the distribution of
19 humanitarian aid, the distribution of pension moneys, and providing for
20 all the conditions necessary for a normal life in the municipality.
21 Q. Who was your predecessor and what was his profession?
22 A. My predecessor was Mr. Milivoj Prijic. I believe that he was a
23 physician, but I'm not sure.
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Katic.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And at this moment I have no
1 further questions for the witness, Your Excellencies.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 JUDGE KWON: In the meantime I was able to check the B/C/S
4 version of para 6 of this witness's statement, and if we are to redact
5 the first line and two words in the second line, that would be consistent
6 with the English version.
7 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, we'll do that.
8 JUDGE KWON: I'll have to ask Ms. McKenna whether she is happy
9 with that solution.
10 MS. McKENNA: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
11 JUDGE KWON: So the Defence is to upload the redacted version.
12 Very well. Then that concludes your in-chief examination.
13 As you have noted, Mr. Katic, that your evidence in chief in
14 Mr. Karadzic's defence case was admitted in most form -- in most part in
15 writing in lieu of your oral testimony. And now you will be
16 cross-examined by the representative of the Office of the Prosecutor,
17 Ms. McKenna.
18 Please proceed.
19 MS. McKENNA: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Cross-examination by Ms. McKenna:
21 Q. Good morning, Mr. Katic.
22 A. Good morning.
23 Q. Now, as I have limited time, I'd ask you to listen carefully to
24 my questions and to answer them as accurately and as concisely as
25 possible. I'd like to start with a brief clarificatory point in respect
1 of your statement. When we met on Monday you clarified that in September
2 or October 1990 you were elected as an SDS deputy to the Assembly of the
3 municipality of Novo Sarajevo. Is that correct?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Could you clarify the position to which you were elected?
6 A. What year? I did not understand your question. What year did
7 you refer to?
8 Q. 1990.
9 A. 1990? That's when the first multi-party election took place in
10 the municipality of Novo Sarajevo, and I was elected as an MP or an
11 Assembly member on behalf of the SDS.
12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Katic. And you served in this capacity until the
13 outbreak of the conflict in April 1992; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. I'd first like to focus on the period of the outbreak of the
16 conflict. At paragraph 8 of your statement you say:
17 "I was never involved in arms distribution. Shooting was
18 everywhere and people were panicking and asking where there were weapons.
19 Everything was disorganised and the situation was chaotic."
20 This is a reference to the period at the very start of the
21 conflict, at the beginning of April 1992, isn't it?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. Now, in your testimony in the Dragomir Milosevic case you
24 described in detail how the arming at the start of the conflict took
25 place. On the 4th of April, 1992, you lived - as you still do - in
1 Ohridska Street in Vrace; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And on that date you heard shots from Vrace memorial park and you
4 understood that there were clashes between the police forces at the
5 police school in Vrace; correct?
6 A. That's correct.
7 Q. And that was when the panic - which you describe in your
8 statement today - broke out, wasn't it?
9 A. And that is also correct.
10 Q. So after an hour or two, vehicles started coming with weapons;
12 A. Vehicles with weapons did not start arriving. One vehicle
13 arrived with weapons.
14 MS. McKENNA: If I may have 65 ter number 24328, please.
15 Q. Mr. Katic, I'd just like to remind you of the testimony that you
16 gave in the Dragomir Milosevic case on this point.
17 MS. McKENNA: If we could have page 9 of this exhibit, please, or
18 this document.
19 Q. And at lines 9 to 10 of this page you state -- well, actually at
20 line 7 you state:
21 " ... as I said, people started to gather spontaneously and
22 started asking for weapons because they panicked."
23 And then you say:
24 "And I can say that after an hour or two, vehicles started coming
25 with weapons."
1 Now, having reviewed your testimony, is it your position that, in
2 fact, it was only one vehicle?
3 A. I can say that when it comes to Miljevici village where I live
4 above the memorial park, only one vehicle arrived.
5 Q. Thank you. So panic-stricken people, including yourself, stood
6 in queues by the truck, the vehicle, asking for weapons; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And those who were being armed were not JNA members, they were
9 just local members of the Territorial Defence and other people from the
10 surrounding area; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And arms continued to be distributed over the next three or four
13 days; correct?
14 A. I don't know exactly whether that was over the next three or four
15 days. I'm sure that it was for another day. Arms were distributed at
16 least for another day in the area where I resided.
17 MS. McKENNA: If we could turn to page 10 of this document,
19 Q. Again, Mr. Katic, I'd like to remind you of your testimony --
20 your previous testimony on this. At line 3 of this document you state.
21 "These weapons were being distributed over the next three or four
22 days ..."
23 Does that refresh your recollection?
24 A. If I stated that it was over the next three or four days, I
25 suppose that I was right five years ago. As I'm sitting today -- here
1 today, I know that it was distributed over the next one or two days. I
2 wouldn't be so sure that it was over the next three or four days, so I
3 can't confirm that.
4 Q. Thank you. You received automatic and semi-automatics -- excuse
5 me, you and your neighbours received automatic and semi-automatic
6 weapons; isn't that correct?
7 A. Correct. Semi-automatic and automatic rifles.
8 Q. And the trucks -- or the vehicle or vehicles that came from the
9 army barracks at Lukavica, didn't they?
10 A. I believe so. I believe that it arrived from the military
11 barracks in Lukavica.
12 Q. And weapons were also being supplied from Pale, weren't they?
13 A. From Pale to the lower part of the city as we used to call it,
14 i.e., to the area where I resided. No weapons could arrive directly by
15 trucks. It may have stopped somewhere in the region of Trebevic.
16 Q. So just to clarify that point, you're saying that weapons went
17 from Pale to Trebevic but not from Pale to your part of Novo Sarajevo; is
18 that correct?
19 A. During that period a vehicle from Pale or from further afield
20 could not reach Lukavica or Vrace or Miljevici because the road between
21 Pale and Lukavica via Vrace was not passable. In other words, one part
22 of that road was under the control of the Muslim police.
23 Q. Mr. Katic, just to clarify this point, in your OTP statement that
24 you gave previously, you stated:
25 "Weapons were also coming from Pale," and that's at paragraph 53
1 of your statement to the Office of the Prosecutor.
2 So I'm just -- I'd just like you to clarify what you meant when
3 you said "weapons were also coming from Pale."
4 A. All these things that I've just said I confirm again because I
5 said back then that people who were not armed from our territory went on
6 foot across slopes, the slopes of Mount Trebevic, to the sector that
7 could be reached by truck, a truck that was sent somewhere from Pale or
8 from behind the lines.
9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Katic. I'll move to a different topic.
10 MS. McKENNA: Could we please have 65 ter 24327.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just correct the transcript.
12 Line 21 the witness said: Or somewhere from the depth of the territory.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: This is a synonym of "from
14 behind the lines."
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's only a matter of the record.
16 If the Prosecutor will kindly check whether this was indeed said --
17 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I was confirmed by the interpreters
18 that "from behind the lines" is a synonym to that expression, but we note
20 Let's continue.
21 MS. McKENNA: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Mr. Katic, you'll recognise this photo as a photo that you marked
23 in the Dragomir Milosevic case. Do you recognise the photo?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And can you confirm for us today that F is -- you marked F for
1 the faculty of philosophy?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. M for the museum?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. HI for the Holiday Inn?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. B for the Metaljka building?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And the line that you drew on this photo was the separation line
10 between the VRS above the line and the ABiH below the line; is that
12 A. Yes.
13 MS. McKENNA: Your Honour, may I tender this as an exhibit?
14 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Document 24327 receives number P6044,
17 Your Honours.
18 JUDGE KWON: You're going to ask some questions about this?
19 MS. McKENNA: I am, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
21 MS. McKENNA:
22 Q. Now, Mr. Katic, there were men with rifles on the upper floor of
23 the Metaljka building and the building to its left on this map, weren't
25 A. I don't know. I cannot see it on this photograph.
1 MS. McKENNA: Could we please have 65 ter number 24328.
2 Q. Again, Mr. Katic, I'd like to remind you of your testimony in
3 this -- on this issue in the Dragomir Milosevic case.
4 JUDGE KWON: No, the question was not whether you can see the men
5 with rifles on this photo, whether you were aware -- the question was
6 whether there were men with rifles on the upper floor of that building
7 you marked.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the roof of that building there
9 could have been no people. They could have been on lower floors or
10 perhaps on the highest floor, but they couldn't be on the roof.
11 JUDGE KWON: It may be a translation issue. I didn't say so
12 neither Ms. McKenna say so. The question was whether there were men with
13 rifles on the upper floor of the building.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, sir, there were armed people
15 in that building.
16 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Thank you.
17 MS. McKENNA: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 Q. And from the positions from the upper floors of that building,
19 these men could shoot down the street running from the Metaljka building
20 towards the Holiday Inn to hit targets in front of the Holiday Inn if
21 they choose to do so; isn't that correct?
22 A. If they wanted to, they could hit it from that building.
23 Q. So these men could effectively engage targets from the Metaljka
24 building and the building to its left with or without a telescopic sight
25 on their rifles, couldn't they?
1 A. Well, the distance is about 400 metres. They could without
2 telescopic sights shoot.
3 Q. Thank you. Now, at statement -- or at paragraph 16 of your
4 statement you refer to the red building which was divided between the VRS
5 and the ABiH.
6 MS. McKENNA: Could we please see D2623.
7 Q. Now, the red building to which you refer is the building marked
8 with an S and an M in this photograph; isn't that correct?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. And at paragraph 10 of your statement you confirmed that the Serb
11 forces were in the part marked S and Muslim forces in the part marked M;
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. The whole area to the left of this building on the photo was held
15 by the VRS, wasn't it?
16 A. The area to the left of this building was under the control of
17 the Army of Republika Srpska.
18 Q. And the area in front of the building, that's towards the
19 Miljacka river on the photo, was also held by the VRS; correct?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. And the area behind the building was also held by the VRS;
23 A. I did not understand this.
24 Q. I'm sorry. I'll be more clear. The area behind the building, so
25 in the opposite direction to the Miljacka river, was also held by the
1 VRS; is that correct? The area at the lower part of the photo.
2 A. You mean left on the photograph? Is that what you mean? When I
3 look at the photograph, the left side?
4 Q. I mean the bottom part of the photograph, the bottom left.
5 Mr. Katic, perhaps --
6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. So just to simplify things, we can agree that the red building
8 was almost entirely surrounded by VRS forces; correct?
9 A. Not quite. Not completely. On the right-hand side on this
10 picture there were forces of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
11 Q. Thank you. At paragraph 16 of your statement you say:
12 "It was possible to fire shots from this building on the area in
13 front of the Holiday Inn, S curve area, to cause incidents. This means
14 that Bosnian soldiers could have fired shots in order to cause
16 And then you seem to backtrack somewhat from this statement and
17 then you say:
18 "Nonetheless some tall buildings and trees could obstruct the
19 line of sight between the S curve area and the red building."
20 Mr. Katic, I'd like you to examine this photo and examine the
21 line of sight from the Muslim-held part of the red building to the
22 Holiday Inn. And you'll agree that the first obstruction is the tall
23 building to the left of the building marked 1 on the map. Isn't that
25 A. From the red building, regardless of whether it's marked with S
1 or M, it was possible to shoot at Holiday Inn.
2 Q. Well, again, Mr. Katic --
3 A. Just a moment. That's why I said in my previous statement that
4 the building I marked as the Metaljka building was impossible for
5 soldiers of the Army of Republika Srpska to occupy on the roof or the
6 upper floors because of the possibility that soldiers from the red
7 building marked with M could fire.
8 Q. Mr. Katic, I think we can agree that anybody standing on the roof
9 of the red building or, indeed, the Metaljka building, would be exposed
10 to fire from the opposite side. Is that correct?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. And we can also agree that there was nothing preventing soldiers
13 from taking positions in the upper floor of the Metaljka building, and as
14 you already confirmed in your previous testimony there were, in fact,
15 soldiers on the upper floor - correct - and as you confirmed today?
16 A. That's right.
17 Q. And now focusing on the red building, leaving aside the issue of
18 the Metaljka building, focusing on the red building, I'd like you to
19 examine the line of sight between the red building and the S curve area
20 in front of the Holiday Inn -- in fact, perhaps if we look at this line
21 of sight from a different perspective it may be even clearer to you.
22 MS. McKENNA: Could we please see D2526.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we learn the date and time
24 when the photograph was taken to be sure that everything we see on the
25 picture existed then.
1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, we all know. Let us proceed.
2 MS. McKENNA: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. Now, again, Mr. Katic, I'd like you to examine the line of
4 sight -- if you can orientate yourself, can you see the red building in
5 the top left-hand corner of the photograph?
6 A. I see the red building.
7 Q. And again, I'd ask you to focus on the line of sight between the
8 ABiH-held part of that building --
9 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, Ms. McKenna. Why don't you ask the
10 witness to mark the red building on this photo.
11 MS. McKENNA: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Mr. Katic, could you please mark the red building on this photo.
13 The usher will assist you.
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. Mr. Katic, I think we'll have to go back to the previous photo so
16 you can orientate yourself correctly. Would you like to make a
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we can -- you can delete your marking.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I see red and then I see it's
20 a new building.
21 MS. McKENNA:
22 Q. So just to clarify, the X you've placed is not on the smaller red
23 building, but the larger longer building behind the small building;
25 A. Yes.
1 JUDGE KWON: To be clearer, you may circle the building.
2 MS. McKENNA:
3 Q. Perhaps, Mr. Katic, you could circle the ABiH-held part of the
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. Thank you very much. Now, again focusing on the line of sight
7 between that part of the building and the S curve area in front of the
8 Holiday Inn - and we can zoom in on the buildings -- the tall building in
9 front of the red building if it would be helpful, but you will agree that
10 along that line of sight you first are obstructed by the tall building to
11 the left of the Metaljka building on this photograph; isn't that correct?
12 A. Would you repeat the question, please.
13 Q. Mr. Katic, an ABiH soldier shooting downwards from that part of
14 the building held by the ABiH would be obstructed by the tall buildings
15 in front of him on the VRS-held side of the Miljacka river; isn't that
17 A. That's correct.
18 THE ACCUSED: May I have an intervention. First I should know
19 whether Mr. Katic speaks English or not.
20 MS. McKENNA:
21 Q. Mr. Katic, do you speak English?
22 A. I don't speak English.
23 JUDGE KWON: Could you kindly take off your headphones for the
25 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe, Your Excellency -- [In
2 English] Sorry, I have to speak in English. I believe, Excellencies,
3 that those questions are misleading since Mr. Katic was not deployed in
4 this area. All of those guesses and speculations --
5 MS. McKENNA: Your Honour --
6 THE ACCUSED: -- are not taking into account levels and
7 trajectories and anything, just speculation that I can't recover during
8 the --
9 JUDGE KWON: But, Mr. Karadzic, take a look at paragraph 16.
10 Paragraph 16 the witness stated that it was possible to fire shots from
11 this building on the area in front of Holiday Inn, S curve area, to cause
12 incidents. So it's --
13 THE ACCUSED: Yes, Excellency. But why we don't have -- why we
14 don't have better photo? Because this photo is -- the angle is
15 completely wrong and it can't be proven what --
16 MS. McKENNA: Your Honour --
17 JUDGE KWON: No, but then if it's -- you can re-examine the
18 witness with more proper photo in your turn.
19 THE ACCUSED: Okay. Thank you.
20 JUDGE KWON: Then let's continue.
21 Mr. Katic, I hope you understand my body language. Yes, thank
23 That can't express my gesture. Yes, let's continue.
24 MS. McKENNA: Your Honour, if I may briefly examine the record.
25 Your Honour, I have no further questions for this witness.
1 JUDGE KWON: Shall we ask the witness to date and sign this
3 MS. McKENNA: Thank you for the reminder, Your Honour.
4 Q. Mr. Katic, could you please date and sign this photo in the
5 bottom corner.
6 A. [Marks]
7 MS. McKENNA: And if I may tender this, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Document receives number P6045, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
11 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
12 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
13 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Katic, first of all, was your battalion
14 deployed here in this area?
15 A. Our battalion was not deployed in this area.
16 Q. Where was your battalion deployed and how far is that?
17 A. Our battalion was deployed in the sector overlooking Debelo Brdo
18 via Zlatiste up to Osmice on the road towards Trebevic.
19 JUDGE KWON: Shall we clarify what "your battalion" or "our
20 battalion" means. When he was serving as a battalion member or when he
21 was the president of Novo Sarajevo?
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. When you were in the army, according to what is stated in
24 paragraph -- up to 13 March, where were you deployed until 13 March?
25 A. I said a moment ago when I said "our battalion," that's the
1 battalion where I was up to 13 March in the Army of Republika Srpska, in
2 the sector. From Debelo Brdo via Zlatiste, up to Osmice, on the road
3 leading to Trebevic.
4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Katic.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now call up 65 ter 21215,
6 a photograph from another vantage point.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Could you, first of all, mark the buildings where the Muslim army
9 had positions or controlled, which other buildings did they control,
10 apart from the red one, on the left side of the Miljacka river -- or even
11 better, could you mark the buildings they controlled as well as the part
12 of the area at Brdo they controlled?
13 A. Shall I draw the separation line as it was during the war?
14 Q. Yes, do draw that line.
15 A. To the right.
16 Q. Did that line go between the buildings uphill?
17 A. Yes, it did go uphill, towards the top, towards the Jewish
18 cemetery, which is at the top.
19 Q. Could you write an S on the left-hand side and M on the
20 right-hand side in Latinic script.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. Thank you. Was there optical visibility from these positions on
23 the mountaintops in terms of the part of the road that was in front of
24 the Holiday Inn hotel?
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, you're -- yes, Ms. McKenna.
1 MS. McKENNA: Your Honour, this is outside the scope of the
2 cross-examination, which was focused simply on the line of visibility
3 from the ABiH-held part of the red building.
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
5 MR. ROBINSON: Well, Mr. President --
6 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson.
7 MR. ROBINSON: I don't think the cross-examination can be
8 construed that narrowly. The issue is if someone was sniped on in front
9 of the Holiday Inn, which side was it coming from, so I don't think --
10 JUDGE KWON: But take a look at paragraph 16 of the witness's
12 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, I've seen paragraph 16 but does that --
13 JUDGE KWON: It deals with exclusively red building.
14 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, it does but does that -- we're not limited by
15 that. If he wants to say -- if the implication is that there's no way
16 that the Muslims could have shot someone in front of that Holiday Inn
17 building, then Dr. Karadzic is entitled to show they could have shot from
18 all kinds of places. He's not limited to the red building to rebut that
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, just a second.
21 Interpretation has only now been completed.
22 Yes, Ms. McKenna.
23 MS. McKENNA: Your Honour, the cross-examination was limited
24 solely to the issue of the possibility of -- the witness's contention was
25 that there was a line of sight between the ABiH-held part of the red
1 building and the S curve in front of the Holiday Inn. That was the sole
2 topic of the cross-examination, and anything broader than that does not
3 stem from the cross-examination.
4 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President, I believe that
5 Ms. McKenna also asked on this picture to tell -- for him to tell where
6 the Serbs were and where the Muslims were.
7 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, I think we have heard enough.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE KWON: Given the relevance of the issue, we would allow the
10 accused to pose the questions. But if necessary, we would also allow the
11 Prosecution to put further questions if necessary.
12 MR. TIEGER: Mr. President, I'm sorry, I'd like to raise a
13 slightly broader point. This may not -- about this kind of statement
14 followed by these kinds of questions on re-direct. This may not be the
15 moment to do it but --
16 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger, I would not entertain your submission.
17 Why don't we proceed.
18 MR. TIEGER: Okay. But I'd like to reserve the opportunity to do
19 so, Mr. President. Thank you.
20 JUDGE KWON: Let's proceed, Mr. Karadzic.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Mr. Katic, Madam McKenna asked you about these buildings behind
24 the red building to the south, who they belonged to. Did you mark it in
25 the following way now that part of these buildings that went uphill
1 belonged to the Muslim side and another part belonged to the Serb side?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you. From this point of view do you know or do you believe
4 that there is visibility between this vantage point and the red building
5 and the Holiday Inn?
6 A. Now that I look at this photograph, I see a building here which
7 is taller than the red building. Probably it was built later in peace
8 time. Optically speaking, one could not fire from the red building now
9 that I'm looking at the location in front of the Holiday Inn.
10 Q. Thank you. Could one fire from these high areas close to the
11 Jewish cemetery? Could one fire at this section of the road?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you. You were asked whether any Serb soldiers could have
14 been on the higher floors of Metaljka. You said that that was possible
15 but that then they would have been under threat. I'm not asking you
16 whether that was possible. I'm asking you whether there actually were
17 soldiers up there on the higher floors.
18 JUDGE KWON: Before you answer, Mr. Katic.
19 Yes, Ms. McKenna.
20 MS. McKENNA: This question was asked and answered. The witness
21 already confirmed that there were soldiers on the upper floors of the
22 Metaljka building.
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I agree with Ms. McKenna.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The answer wasn't given to me,
25 Excellency. The answer was given to the OTP, that it was -- that it
1 could have happened. But I'm asking in re-direct now not only whether
2 that could have been happened, but I'm asking whether he saw from the
3 front line that there actually were soldiers up on those higher floors.
4 So I'm actually changing my question.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Were you at the front line as a soldier and did you see soldiers
7 on these higher floors?
8 JUDGE KWON: From which army, Mr. Karadzic?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Serb army? I'm talking about
10 Metaljka, the Metaljka building.
11 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood. I understood the
13 question. I was never as a soldier on this position and, and, there is
14 this reality. Soldiers were everywhere on first floors or in basements
15 at the front line to guard their positions. But I did not claim then
16 that they could have climbed the roof or these higher floors. I did not
17 see them.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Thank you. You mentioned that on higher floors --
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I -- proceed.
21 [Defence counsel confer]
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. You mentioned that on higher floors they could have been under
24 threat from the red building. Could they have been under threat from
25 some facility on the right bank of the Miljacka that was under the
1 control of the Muslim forces, and can you tell us which buildings existed
2 from which one could fire at Metaljka?
3 A. All the buildings on the right bank of the Miljacka river - well,
4 not all of them but most of them - are taller than the Assembly building,
5 the Holiday Inn building, and over here the well-known Unis buildings
6 that were called Momo and Uzeir, that's what we called them. All of
7 these were more dominant in relation to the Metaljka building, that is,
8 on the Serb side.
9 Q. Thank you. You were asked whether they could shoot. Do you have
10 any information to the effect that Serb soldiers intentionally fired at
11 the area in front of the Holiday Inn?
12 A. I do not have any information of the Serb soldiers ever
13 intentionally shooting at civilians.
14 Q. Thank you. Could I kindly ask you to place the date and your
15 initials on this photograph.
16 A. [Marks]
17 JUDGE KWON: Next Defence exhibit.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Document receives number D2655, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Katic, in one of the questions -- in one of the
20 answers you gave to Mr. Karadzic's question you stated - it's transcript
21 page 61, line 24 and on: I understood the question:
22 "I was never as a soldier on this position and there is this
23 reality," you're talking about this red building or Metaljka -- oh, yes,
24 Metaljka building. "Soldiers were everywhere on first floors or in
25 basements at the front line to guard their position, but I did not claim
1 then that they could have climbed the roof or these higher floors. I did
2 not see them."
3 So I'm not sure if there's a translation issue, but I limit my
4 question to the case related to the higher floors -- rooms located in
5 higher floors, be it sixth floor, seventh floor, or fifth floor. I'm not
6 meaning the roof.
7 In your earlier answer to the question posed by Ms. McKenna you
8 stated that, and I -- it is after my intervention, you confirmed that
9 there were armed people in that building in the -- on the upper floor of
10 that building --
11 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President, are you reading from
12 transcript 49 --
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
14 MR. ROBINSON: -- lines 21 --
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
16 MR. ROBINSON: But he says "could," there could have been.
17 JUDGE KWON: No, no, I will read out my question. The question
18 was -- this is what I said -- it's line 25 of transcript 49. The
19 question was whether there were men with rifles on the upper floor of
20 that building."
21 And witness's answer:
22 "Judge, sir, there were armed people in that building."
23 So you confirmed that there were armed people on the upper floor
24 of that Metaljka building, and now you are claiming that you didn't see
25 the armed men. So what was your basis in confirming that there were
1 armed people on the upper floor of Metaljka building, Mr. Katic?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let me tell you. In these
3 buildings, not all the tenants were moved out. In some buildings there
4 were families that lived there. It is possible that on some floor a
5 family had stayed behind with two soldiers who lived there and could have
6 weapons and did have weapons in their apartment.
7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Katic. I'll leave it at that.
8 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. In terms of continuity with this question put by His Excellency,
11 Mr. Kwon, can you tell us from your own experience whether people fired
12 from buildings where their families were; and if so, what were the
14 A. They certainly did not fire from their apartments, these soldiers
15 who lived in these apartments.
16 Q. For what reason?
17 A. Well, because this was not the place. He had a particular
18 military place where he went to this -- to defend this military line that
19 had been taken.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. For planning purposes, do you have
22 many questions more?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Five or six minutes, Excellency.
24 Five minutes, whatever you prefer.
25 JUDGE KWON: Would you like to have further cross-examination,
1 Ms. McKenna?
2 MS. McKENNA: At this stage, no, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE KWON: Then shall we continue.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we briefly take a look at
5 D2623. And could Mr. Katic please be assisted as he uses the pen -- I
6 paper P6044. It's a Prosecution document, 6044. Can it be enlarged a
7 bit more.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Mr. Katic, what is under this red line that you drew?
10 A. Underneath the red line is the Miljacka river.
11 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to ask you the following: Do you see
12 this curve, S, on the road right in front of the Holiday Inn?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this being zoomed in a bit
14 more? All right.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. It seems that the vehicles stopped at the traffic light. Do you
17 see this S line where the tram moves from one side to the other?
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can it be zoomed in a bit more now?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't see this.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Do you see it now, Mr. Katic, on the road itself?
22 A. I see --
23 Q. Do you see where the tram forks off and moves to the right-hand
24 side towards the faculty, do you see that S curve?
25 A. I see it here.
1 Q. Can you draw a line on this S curve.
2 A. [Marks]
3 Q. Thank you. Could you now please draw a line for us along the
4 pavement on the street called Rackog, can you cut across this curve.
5 Yes, yes, just go on that way.
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. Thank you. Could I kindly ask you to place the date there and
8 your initials.
9 JUDGE KWON: I don't see the point of these markings,
10 Mr. Karadzic.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellency, it can be seen clearly
12 that the point is that the faculty shields the S curve and that from the
13 S curve one cannot fire from Metaljka. I can't put that question as
14 well, but I just wanted someone who was from the area to mark these
16 JUDGE KWON: Then if that was the point we need to have these
17 markings in a not-zoomed big photo. So could we ask the witness to mark
18 these -- make these markings again on the original one now that he
19 understood where the S mark is.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Could I kindly ask you, Mr. Katic, to now draw the same line,
22 these same two lines.
23 JUDGE KWON: Is he able to mark now? Yes.
24 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Thank you. In your opinion, can something on this curve be hit
2 from Metaljka?
3 A. From Metaljka here on the road, the S curve, the tram cannot be
4 hit because the faculty building is there.
5 Q. Thank you. Can you now place the date and your initials there.
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. Just one more question, Mr. Katic. As president of the
8 municipality you knew what the powers of the municipality were and the
9 domain of defence. The municipality and local communes, did they have
10 their own organisations of Territorial Defence?
11 A. They had a defence department, not local communes, but the
12 municipality did have a defence department.
13 Q. What about the Territorial Defence, how was it regulated in that
14 system of ours? Companies, the municipality, local communes, did they
15 have their Territorial Defences and where did they keep their weapons?
16 A. Correct. I don't know where the Territorial Defence kept their
17 weapons. That was decided in the former Yugoslavia -- rather, the former
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina. In the Territorial Defence, apart from the National
19 Defence department, is something we didn't have.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I tender this document?
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. You have been asked about the provenance of weapons when the war
23 broke out and you said they came from the JNA barracks. Was there any
24 relationship between the JNA and the TO and did TO units have their own
1 A. Territorial Defence units had their own weapons separate from the
2 JNA arsenal, but I don't know where their depots were. I suppose that
3 the depots of weapons of the Novo Sarajevo municipality TO were in
5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Katic.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No further questions. Can this be
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes, this will be Exhibit D2656.
9 Then that concludes your evidence, Mr. Katic -- I'm sorry, I
10 didn't ask you, Ms. McKenna, no --
11 MS. McKENNA: No further questions, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE KWON: -- re-cross. Thank you.
13 So I thank you, Mr. Katic, for your coming to The Hague to give
14 it. Now you are free to go. But we'll rise all together and we'll have
15 a --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 JUDGE KWON: We'll have a 45-minute break and resume at 25 past
19 [The witness withdrew]
20 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.41 p.m.
21 [The witness entered court]
22 --- On resuming at 1.28 p.m.
23 JUDGE KWON: Let the witness make the solemn declaration, please.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
25 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
1 WITNESS: LUKA DRAGICEVIC
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Dragicevic. Please take a seat and
4 make yourself comfortable.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Dragicevic, before you start giving evidence,
7 I'd like to draw your attention to a particular rule here at the
8 Tribunal. Under Rule -- under this rule, Rule 90(E), you may object to
9 answering a question from the accused, the Prosecution, or from the
10 Judges if you believe that your answer will incriminate you. When I say
11 "incriminate," I mean that something you say may amount to an admission
12 of your guilt for a criminal offence or could provide evidence that you
13 have committed an offence. However, even if your answer will incriminate
14 you and you do not wish to answer the question, the Tribunal has the
15 power to compel you to answer the question. But in such a case, the
16 Tribunal will make sure that your testimony compelled in such a way shall
17 not be used as evidence in other case against you for any offence other
18 than false testimony. Do you understand what I have just told you, sir?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Dragicevic.
21 Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
24 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Colonel Dragicevic.
25 A. Good afternoon, Mr. President, and good afternoon to everybody.
1 Q. The two of us speak the same language which is why I need to ask
2 you to make a pause after my question to allow the interpreters to
3 interpret every single word of yours because all your words are
4 important. Did you give a statement to my Defence team?
5 A. Yes.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D6903 in
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Do you see a statement in front of you on the screen?
10 A. Yes, I can see the first page of it.
11 Q. Did you read this statement and did you sign it?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Does this statement contain everything you said and does the
14 statement reflect your words correctly?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. If I were to put the same questions to you today, would your
17 answers to the same questions be the same?
18 A. They would be the same to the last detail.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I am tendering this
21 92 ter package into evidence.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
23 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. We would ask permission for
24 adding the three associated exhibits to the 65 ter list. We were not
25 aware of these documents at the time we submitted our list.
1 JUDGE KWON: Before I give the floor to Mr. Nicholls, first with
2 respect to 65 ter number 01369, I take it that you are tendering only
3 page in English version that contains the relevant part?
4 MR. ROBINSON: That's correct.
5 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls.
6 MR. NICHOLLS: I would object to that, Your Honour. I mean, I --
7 it's not a very long document. I think for completeness we should have
8 the whole of that article in. The Prosecution has no objection to -- if
9 I'm talking about the correct -- yes, 01369. I would move that the
10 entire article come in.
11 JUDGE KWON: Aha. You object to the partial admission?
12 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, it's not a very long document.
13 JUDGE KWON: It's not an objection to the admission itself?
14 MR. NICHOLLS: No, I would like the document to come in.
15 MR. ROBINSON: And this is --
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson.
18 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, this is a Prosecution 65 ter number, so if
19 they can take care of that, this 01369, it's a 65 ter document from the
21 JUDGE KWON: What do you mean by taking care of it? You
22 translated only page 7?
23 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, if they could upload it -- if they have a
24 full translation, if they can upload that, that's what I mean.
25 MR. NICHOLLS: We can do that. Thank you.
1 JUDGE KWON: With respect to the previous one, i.e., 1D6902 ,
2 it's a bit difficult to follow how this is relevant or of any probative
3 value or forms indispensable and inseparable part of witness's statement.
4 So, if necessary, I would like the accused to lead live with the witness
5 with respect to this document.
6 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
8 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry, I don't want to interrupt you. I object to
9 this document even being considered for admission. One, it probably
10 shouldn't have been disclosed in the first place because it's a work
11 product. It's all the legal impressions of an attorney. Two, as you
12 said, under no circumstances would this have any relevance for the reason
13 I just stated. It's the opinion of somebody who was working on a file.
14 JUDGE KWON: But -- of course we'll decide whether to admit it
15 after hearing the evidence, but would it not be relevant to the
16 credibility issue?
17 MR. NICHOLLS: No, Your Honour, because that was my third point,
18 is the way it's being admitted and what is being admitted is in a very
19 misleading way. First of all, in paragraph 49 it states that this
20 document, 1D6902, is related to an investigation that the Prosecution
21 conducted against me. That's not true. This is not relevant to an OTP
22 investigation into a prosecution against Mr. Dragicevic. That's just not
23 correct. What this document represents --
24 JUDGE KWON: Just a -- I'm sorry to interrupt you. But that --
25 so if I order the Defence to lead live with respect to that paragraph,
1 your concerns will be resolved.
2 MR. NICHOLLS: All right. Thank you, Your Honour. I would just
3 make one other point.
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
5 MR. NICHOLLS: That what this document represents, 1D6902, is a
6 review of a file that was sent to the OTP, and the Defence have attached
7 only the first two pages of this voluminous untranslated file. So for
8 this analysis to have any meaning, Your Honours, I think even if it were
9 to be admitted - which I would object to - would need the complete file
10 in order to see whether you agree with the analysis here.
11 JUDGE KWON: So let's deal with it when it arises.
12 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
13 MR. ROBINSON: Actually, Mr. President, so I can just give
14 Dr. Karadzic some advice about when we would use this document. Is it
15 the position -- does the Prosecution intend to ask any questions
16 concerning Gorazde municipality of this witness during its
17 cross-examination? If it doesn't, I don't think we would need to bother
18 with the document.
19 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm not prepared to disclose one sentence of my
20 cross at this point.
21 MR. ROBINSON: Very well.
22 JUDGE KWON: So shall we give the number of -- for the 92 ter
24 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D6903 receives number D2658,
25 Your Honours.
1 JUDGE KWON: And we'll admit the 1D6094 [sic] as an associated
3 THE REGISTRAR: Document receives number D2659, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE KWON: And we'll admit 1D6902 -- no, no, I'm sorry,
5 65 ter number 1369 in its entirety, as requested by the Prosecution.
6 THE REGISTRAR: And receives number D2660, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE KWON: And I take it with the assistance of the
8 Prosecution, the entire translation will be uploaded very soon in due
10 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I just wanted to say
12 that only these two pages were disclosed to me with regard to the last
13 document from paragraph 49. And now I would like to read the summary of
14 Colonel Dragicevic's statement in English.
15 [In English] Colonel Luka Dragicevic joined the VRS in July 1992
16 and in October 1992 he was appointed the commander of the
17 Visegrad Brigade. In August 1993 he was appointed Chief of Staff to the
18 Tactical Group Visegrad and at the end of November 1994 he was appointed
19 assistant commander for morale, religious, and legal affairs in
20 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.
21 In the second half of 1991, JNA members were ordered to attend
22 work in their own civilian clothing due to the attacks that had occurred
23 against the JNA personnel by paramilitaries like Juka Prazina and his
24 men. He received information that a large number of Muslims had been
25 sent to Croatia and to the MUP in Croatia for military training. He
1 further found out that the Patriotic League training centre had been set
2 up in Igman mount as a result of the JNA increased combat-readiness
3 amongst its troops. A mass exodus of the Muslim officers from JNA
4 occurred in March/April 1992, when all left at their own request and were
5 not expelled from the service due to their ethnicities.
6 At the end of 1991, JNA officers were attacked in Slovenia and
7 Croatia, with barracks being under blockade and supplies, water and
8 electricity were cut off, and large number of the JNA were -- members
9 were injured or killed. During their withdrawal from Croatia, the JNA
10 was attacked in the BH primarily by the Green Berets and the
11 Patriotic League.
12 The main goal of the VRS was to defend and protect the people who
13 were on the territory under its control. The strategy was not to seize
14 all of B&H but to defend those parts which ethnically belonged to the
15 Serbian people and to people who were in favour of preserving Yugoslavia.
16 However, the strategy of the opposition was to capture -- the opposite
17 side was to capture the whole Bosnia -- of BH which was the core of their
18 offensive operations. The ethnic make-up of the population in Sarajevo
19 and surrounding areas was such that the predominantly Serbian settlements
20 were concentrated around the city centre. This situation existed
21 naturally, no one created it recently.
22 At the same time -- at that time when Luka Dragicevic joined the
23 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, sanctions issued by the Federal Republic of
24 Yugoslavia were in force against the Republika Srpska and there was a
25 shortage of food, fuel, ammunition, particularly large-calibre artillery
1 ammunition. Rigorous steps were taken to conserve ammunition and fuel
2 and measures were taken to fortify the defence positions.
3 When Colonel Dragicevic joined the -- he became -- he became
4 aware of intelligence that a large-scale spring offensive was planned by
5 BH army. Any truce signed by Muslim military or political
6 representatives would allow their forces to strengthen their own
7 position. The Sarajevo-Romanija Corps at this point did not have any
8 reserve forces or free units.
9 Between December 1994 and April 1995, there were continuous
10 attacks in Sarajevo from the Muslim-controlled area of Sarajevo. Often
11 at the BH army forces would open fire from schools, kindergartens,
12 hospitals, and apartment buildings in civilian zones. The
13 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, to avoid civilian casualties, was requested to
14 only fire at the enemy's visible firing points which were inflicting
15 losses to the army or civilians on the Serb side.
16 Due to the enemy offensive, the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps
17 considered it necessary to obtain some of the heavy weapons placed under
18 the control of UNPROFOR. As soon as this occurred, the Serbian side was
19 bombed by NATO even though none of the weapons taken had been used.
20 Following this, there was a powerful offensive from the BH against the
21 Serb positions. Higher commands forbid the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps
22 beginning any operation against the UNPROFOR locations, even when they
23 were being fired at from because locations -- from these locations by
24 Muslim forces. As far as Colonel Luka Dragicevic is aware, neither the
25 corps commander nor any higher- or lower-ranking commander ever issued
1 any orders for combat operations against UNPROFOR unless the UNPROFOR
2 forces attacked their units first. He does not know of any cases of war
3 crimes committed in the zone of responsibility of Sarajevo-Romanija Corps
4 whilst he was in command. He is not aware of any facilities used to hold
5 civilian prisoners. Imprisoned members of the BH army were under the
6 authority of the security organs. He did not hear of or read about any
7 cases of maltreatment. Colonel Luka Dragicevic has knowledge about
8 UNPROFOR members being imprisoned in the military sense, which was done
9 pursuant to an order from the superior commands. It was communicated to
10 them why they were being imprisoned and there were no reasons for
11 conflicts or combat; it was a protective and defensive measure.
12 There was no opportunity for the Serbian investigative organs to
13 investigate specific events to confirm the other side's claims about
14 Serbian responsibility for the specific incident. Any requests made by
15 investigate -- made to investigate incidents by the mixed military
16 commissions were refused by the Muslim side. The offer from the Serbian
17 side to have Sarajevo be an open city was categorically rejected by the
18 Muslim side. The Sarajevo-Romanija Corps never cut off electricity,
19 water, and gas supplies to the part of Sarajevo under Muslim control and
20 humanitarian aid was never obstructed and passed whenever it was
22 [Interpretation] This would be the summary.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. I would like to ask you, Colonel, sir, about something that falls
25 within your purview of moral guidance and legal affairs.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up P02691.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. While you worked within this administration of the army, did you
4 organise some training courses and seminars?
5 A. Yes, I did. We did that actually most commonly at those times
6 when conditions for combat were not as good, i.e., when there was the
7 least likelihood for an enemy offensive. And that was usually during
8 winter-time. We mostly carried out training in the area of moral
9 guidance, legal affairs, and Serbian traditions. And that happened
10 usually in February and March. The training was carried out and involved
11 the command cadre, including platoon commanders, company commanders,
12 battalion commanders, and their assistants for moral guidance, as well as
13 brigade commanders. I apologise. And the objective of the training was
14 to inform the command cadre who would then pass the knowledge on to their
15 troops. We could not involve all of the troops in the corps into such
16 training. And it all had to do with the building of combat morale, the
17 rights of soldiers, informing them about rules of war, certain
18 traditions, and so on and so forth. After that, there would be a
19 gathering involving the highest levels of command at the brigade level,
20 who had attended the training. That would be a seminar as a result of
21 which we drew conclusions on how successful was the training, whether the
22 objectives were achieved, whether there could be some improvement made,
23 and conclusions that the lower-level command cadre as to what needed to
24 be done at our level or lower levels with regard to the problems that
25 were encountered in the units, and that hampered our struggle.
1 Q. Thank you. Here you report, or rather, you convey a lot of
2 criticism that may be heard in the trenches by the troops.
3 A. However, the gist of that document is our request upon the
4 General Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska and the higher levels of
5 the state leadership, the Supreme Command and the government, and that
6 for this to be presented in this form or a somewhat more stringent form;
7 and the objective was to start to deal with the problems that kept on
8 piling up for years into the war.
9 Q. I believe that something was not recorded. Is it correct that
10 you have just said that you also covered topics of the Law of War?
11 A. Yes, everything that fell within the purview of legal services,
12 the administration for morale, and in my department in the corps command,
13 because I was in charge of morale guidance, of law, and religious
15 Q. Thank you.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I have no
17 further questions for Colonel Dragicevic at this moment and the document
18 that I have used has already been admitted as tendered by the
20 JUDGE KWON: Then I take it para that 49 should be redacted?
21 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, although we are reserving the
22 right to use that document in re-direct examination but we can redact --
23 JUDGE KWON: But we can redact the paragraph from the statement?
24 MR. ROBINSON: Yes.
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
1 Mr. Dragicevic, as you have noted, your evidence in chief was
2 admitted in most part in writing and you'll be further cross-examined by
3 the representative of the Office of the Prosecutor, Mr. Nicholls.
4 Cross-examination by Mr. Nicholls:
5 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
6 A. Good afternoon, Mr. Prosecutor.
7 Q. You've testified here in this Tribunal before; correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. On the 26th and the 27th of March, 2007?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. In the Dragomir Milosevic case, for which you were subpoenaed or
12 summoned to come and testify?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. You began that testimony by taking a solemn declaration to tell
15 the truth?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Just like today?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And you were truthful in that prior testimony, were you?
20 A. I was truthful. I related the information that I had at the
21 time. I was truthful then and I will be truthful today.
22 Q. Good. I want to touch on something that Mr. Karadzic referred to
23 in his summary. In your prior testimony you testified that regarding the
24 entire time you were assistant commander for morale, religious, and legal
25 affairs in the SRK, you could not recall a single instance of a commander
1 within the SRK reporting a criminal violation of the international laws
2 of war to the military prosecutor. Correct? Not a single report?
3 A. Those were reports that were sent to the military prosecutor.
4 That was not within my purview. I knew nothing of reports that may have
5 been sent to the military prosecutor's office.
6 Q. All right.
7 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I have 65 ter 24297, please, e-court page
9 Q. This is your prior testimony, sir, I'm going to read it out to
10 you. It's in English so I'll read it out to you verbatim this is from
11 T3983 of the transcript, 26th of March, 2007, lines 8 to 20. You're
12 being questioned by Mr. Whiting. And he says:
13 "I want to move on to a new topic now.
14 "Q. During the time -- during the time that you were assistant
15 commander for morale, religious, and legal affairs from the beginning of
16 December 1994 until the end of the war, do you recall any instances where
17 a commander from the SRK reported a criminal violation of the
18 international laws of war to the military prosecutor?"
19 Answer, your answer:
20 "I never learned of heard something like that happening in the
21 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps in the period that you referred to. As far as I
22 can remember, if there had been any such thing in these reports from the
23 Prosecutor's office, then certainly officers from the command would have
24 received information about that and appropriate measures would have been
1 So you stand by that testimony?
2 A. Yes. Once a month we received information from the Prosecutor's
3 office on --
4 Q. Sorry, I'm going to stop you. The question was whether you stand
5 by that information and you answered that question. You can answer these
6 types of questions more on re-direct --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Nicholls kindly speak into the
8 microphone, please. Thank you.
9 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wish to say --
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes, why don't we hear him out.
12 Yes, please continue, Mr. Dragicevic.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I swore that I would say the whole
14 truth, not only part of the truth. Part of the truth is not the whole
15 truth. It is correct that we received information every month, a regular
16 report about the issues that were dealt with by the military prosecutor,
17 and that's how we learned whether there were problems or not that were to
18 be dealt by the prosecutor's office. We only knew that based on the
19 prosecutor's reports. We could not influence those. But rather, based
20 on such reports we ourselves decided what needed to be done, so as to
21 prevent any such future incidents or to punish something that may have
22 occurred in the past.
23 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Dragicevic, the question was not about the
24 report from the prosecutor, military prosecutor. Rather, the question
25 was about commander's report to the military prosecutor, and your answer
1 was you never learned of -- heard of anything like that. Do you stand by
2 that answer?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I stand by that answer.
4 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Mr. Nicholls.
5 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
6 Q. Now I want to move to a different topic and just quickly go
7 through a bit of your military background. If we could have e-court
8 pages 3 to 4 of the same document, we're on 65 ter 24297. I'm just going
9 to go through a bit of your background. This is from your testimony at
11 "You became a member of the VRS in the Army of Republika Srpska
12 on the 19th July, 1992, and on that day you were appointed Chief of Staff
13 of an infantry brigade in Visegrad. That infantry brigade was first
14 known as the Visegrad Brigade, later known as the 2nd Light Infantry
15 Podrinjska Brigade. When the Drina Corps was formed in November of 1992,
16 that brigade became part of the Drina Corps. You were appointed
17 commander of that brigade on the 26th of October, 1992, and you remained
18 commander until August of 1993. At that time you were appointed head of
19 staff of the Visegrad Tactical Group to co-ordinate the work of various
21 "Is that all correct up to now?"
22 And your answer is:
23 "Yes, it is."
24 So that's all a summary of your early career in the VRS; is that
1 A. It is perhaps not true that I was appointed Chief of Staff of the
2 brigade the same day. I'm sure that order must have arrived a bit later
3 because it was not possible that I be appointed the same day as Chief of
4 Staff of the brigade, but the gist is true.
5 Q. Okay. All right. Let's look at some of your early work.
6 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I please have 65 ter 24333.
7 Q. This is the 2nd of April, 1994, document from the
8 Visegrad Tactical Group --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Nicholls kindly speak into the
10 microphone. Thank you.
11 MR. NICHOLLS:
12 Q. -- to the command of the Drina Corps, and it's an order to
13 intensify combat operations. And we can see under the main heading
14 "order to intensify combat operations," that this is pursuant to a
15 warning issued by the Main Staff.
16 MR. NICHOLLS: Could we go to page 2, please, of the English,
17 staying on page 1 of the Serbian. Sorry, page 2 of the Serbian as well.
18 Q. Now, we can see that part of this order is to co-ordinate the
19 actions from Ustipraca and those of the unit infiltrated in the region of
20 Gojcevici. And then it says in number 3.
21 "All actions from the Lisac facility to the village of Djakovica
22 will be linked up and directly co-ordinated by Chief of Staff of the
23 Tactical Group Lieutenant-Colonel Luka Dragicevic ..."
24 And that's you, correct, sir?
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. I want to show you another document and then I'll ask you a
2 question about these. But this order came down as we can see based on
3 the order from the Main Staff; correct?
4 A. No. This order came from the commander of the Tactical Group
5 Visegrad, Colonel Dragisa Masal.
6 Q. Correct. Can we go back to page 1. If you can see here under
7 the main heading "order to intensify combat operations," it says that
8 this is pursuant to a warning from the Main Staff, that's what I was
9 referring to.
10 A. The commander of Tactical Group Visegrad received a warning from
11 the Main Staff of the VRS and is now acting upon that warning and the
12 orders contained therein from the Main Staff of the VRS. He's
13 implementing that order, issuing his own orders to lower-level units in
14 the spirit of that warning.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MR. NICHOLLS: Could we go to 65 ter 24323.
17 Q. This is a report from you to the command of the Visegrad Tactical
18 Group from two days later, 4th of April, combat report.
19 "1. A group of 15 combatants crossed over the Praca river on 3
20 of April, 1994, at about 1900 hours and reconnoitred the village
21 Gojcevici. Nothing special was noticed.
22 "On 4th of April, 1994, at 4.30 the same group will cross the
23 Praca river and set the village of Gojcevici on fire, in line with the
24 conditions of the village of Surovi ..."
25 Signed by you?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. This is a genuine document?
3 A. Really quite soldierly.
4 Q. Yes. And it is talking about going and setting a village on
5 fire. Do you know the ethnicity of the village of Gojcevici, of all the
6 people who lived there?
7 A. This was a hamlet of only three houses -- in fact, it had three
8 houses on the forward front line and there were no inhabitants there. It
9 was the forward defence line of the 1st Division of Gorazde, of the
10 Muslim army.
11 Q. Mm-hmm.
12 MR. NICHOLLS: And could we look at the next document, 65 ter
14 Q. This is the next day. This document is again from you, an
15 interim combat report, stating that you have liberated the village of
16 Gojcevici; correct?
17 A. Correct, but let me just explain. We, in fact, conquered the
18 first defence line of the enemy side, the sector that was in the
19 village -- I mean, it's a village on the map and we have to use that
20 term, but it was not actually a village in the sense that there were no
21 people living there. There were just soldiers from the
22 1st Gorazde Division, and there was their military equipment. Let me
23 just explain this about setting things on fire. There were three houses
24 in that hamlet in the sector of their forward defence line. Those houses
25 had been devastated and they were converted into strongholds of
1 resistance. There were strong infantry assets there and in the previous
2 period they even fired a Maljutka for there. I barely escaped such an
3 attack from a Maljutka in the vehicle in which I was. So that position
4 in Gojcevici was close to Surovo, which was their reserve position. That
5 had been going on for one year and the distance between our lines was no
6 more than 300 metres. In some places it was 100 metres. And for a year
7 we had been reconnoitring each other, occasionally firing at each other,
8 we knew very well what was going on on their forward line and they knew
9 what we were doing on our line because you could see with the naked eye.
10 Q. You say there was only three houses there. Let's look at 00242I.
11 This is the census for 1981 and 1991.
12 MR. NICHOLLS: It's not translated, Your Honour, although we have
13 a translation of the headings because it doesn't really need to be.
14 Q. But we can see there at Gorazde. And if we go to the next page
15 in the B/C/S, page 2, and actually to page 3?
16 JUDGE KWON: Shall we collapse the English?
17 MR. NICHOLLS: That would be good, Your Honour.
18 Q. We can see on line 13 on the right is where it's numbered as
19 Gojcevici. And if we turn -- this is the 1981 census, if we turn to the
20 next page, continuing on line 1 we can see that this was an entirely
21 Muslim village of 48 households. And you did attack it and burn it;
23 JUDGE KWON: Is it 48 households or 48 people, Mr. Nicholls?
24 MR. NICHOLLS: I think you're right, Your Honour, people. Excuse
1 Q. But that sounds like more than three houses, doesn't it?
2 A. Yes, but this is about year 1992, whereas the document you are
3 showing is about 1981. I don't know how many people there were at the
4 time, but I know that since 1981 a dam and a hydropower-plant had been
5 built flooding a lot of the land so that many people must have moved out.
6 I don't know how many people there were at the time, as I say, but I know
7 that for a year before we came to Ustipraca and the time we went there,
8 there was not a civilian, not one civilian, to be observed there. We
9 never saw anyone. And there were no animals, such as cows, that are
10 indispensable to the life of that population.
11 Q. If you just look up a bit, sir, you'll see that this is 1991 -
12 look at the top of the page there - not 1981.
13 A. I heard in my headset that it was 1981 possibly.
14 Q. No, that was a --
15 A. I'm not going into numbers of population. I believe you that
16 this figure is correct, but the moment when we launched that offensive
17 and for a year before that, there was not a single civilian there.
18 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, I would tender these four documents
19 we've just gone through.
20 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson.
21 MR. ROBINSON: No objection, Mr. President.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I --
23 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would appreciate it if we used
25 documents of Bosnia and Herzegovina or the federal state. This is a
1 document of the Croatian state, that is the source. They were making
2 documents on the population in Bosnia-Herzegovina --
3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic --
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- I maintain that this figure
5 would be different and it's simply not all right to use another country's
6 data when we have genuine data.
7 JUDGE KWON: It all goes to the weight and then it does not
8 matter at the time of admission. And then it's for you to use proper
9 documents if you find it necessary. We'll admit all of those four
11 THE REGISTRAR: Document -- I assume that first document is
12 24333 --
13 MR. NICHOLLS: Correct.
14 THE REGISTRAR: -- and not 24297.
15 JUDGE KWON: We start from 24297.
16 MR. NICHOLLS: No, I'm sorry --
17 JUDGE KWON: No, no, I'm sorry that one.
18 THE REGISTRAR: [Overlapping speakers]...
19 MR. NICHOLLS: 24333.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
21 MR. NICHOLLS: 24323.
22 JUDGE KWON: And?
23 MR. NICHOLLS: 08105, 0242I.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Then document 24333 receives number P6046;
25 document 24323 receives number P6047; document 08105 receives number
1 P6048; and document 242I receives number P6049, Your Honours.
2 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
3 Q. Now I want to move on quickly and talk about Operation Zvijezda,
4 or "Star."
5 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I have P01645, please.
6 Q. This is from the Visegrad Tactical Group command. It's dated 11
7 April 1994, in other words, about a week on from the documents we've been
8 looking at. It's signed by commander Dragisa Masal. We can see - I
9 won't spend the time reading out the distribution list - but it's orders
10 for further action to be taken as part of Operation - I'm sorry I can't
11 pronounce it correctly - Zvijezda 94, or Star 94. And I want you to look
12 at the bottom paragraph number 7.
13 "I am forwarding you a message from the commander of the
14 Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, General Mladic, who visited
15 our zone of combat operations on 10 April 1994: 'Keep pushing
16 energetically onwards, pay no attention to what is going on around us.
17 The Turks must disappear from these areas.'"
18 Now, as a corps-level morale officer, you know when that type of
19 sentence from the commander of the Main Staff is included, that is in
20 order to encourage morale and tell the troops what they're fighting for;
22 A. In that situation I was not assistant for morale. I was Chief of
23 Staff of the tactical group and also commander of a combat group. This
24 document was written by Colonel Dragisa Masal, group commander. As a
25 subordinated commanding officer, I received this document and implemented
1 everything that related to me, that is, the tasks that I had as commander
2 of a combat group. And this language, that we should not pay attention,
3 that is a reference to NATO air-strikes and to keep dissimulating so that
4 they would not destroy us. You are coming closer to the side that is
5 supported by NATO so by doing that you force them to strike at both if
6 they want to strike.
7 Q. Yes, and the message from General Mladic for this operation is
8 that the Turks - meaning Muslims - must disappear.
9 MR. NICHOLLS: Hey, if it's a translation error, that's one.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think we should stick to the
11 original text. The Turks, when we say "Turks" or "Ustashas," these words
12 have their own meaning.
13 JUDGE KWON: That's for you to take up the issue, but
14 Mr. Nicholls was quoting directly from the statement -- the document,
15 "the Turks must disappear from these areas."
16 So what is your question, Mr. Nicholls?
17 MR. NICHOLLS:
18 Q. That that is the message from General Mladic, that the Turks must
19 disappear from these areas. And when we see "Turks" in this type of
20 document, it means Muslims; correct?
21 A. Well, most probably Muslims. That was the usual, or rather,
22 frequent not usual name used for Muslims.
23 Q. Now I want to look at another document, 24285 is the
24 65 ter number. That's part of your records. If we look at page 2,
25 that's promotion proposal. And one of the reasons given in order to give
1 you a promotion is that during Operation Star 94, as the Visegrad
2 Tactical Group Chief of Staff, you performed the duty of commander of the
3 combat group which liberated this area. So my only question is: You
4 were promoted for your work or there was a proposal to promote you for
5 your work in Operation Star 94; correct?
6 A. Not only in that operation, but throughout my work from 1992 to
7 this date in 1994.
8 Q. Yes, that's why I said one of the reasons, plural. So the answer
9 is yes; correct?
10 A. I gave you my answer thoroughly, and that's the truth. I can't
11 answer this question with a yes.
12 Q. That's fine.
13 MR. NICHOLLS: May I admit this document or may I tender this
14 document, Your Honour?
15 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Document 24285 receives number P6050,
18 Your Honours.
19 MR. NICHOLLS:
20 Q. Okay. Now I want to go back to your testimony in the prior case.
21 This is a different topic.
22 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I have 65 ter 24297 back up on the screen.
23 This would be e-court page 103.
24 Q. I'm going to read out to you from page 4069, lines 13 to 25,
25 where you were asked a question by the Honourable Judge Harhoff in that
2 "Q. I realise that you have not seen it or expressed any opinion
3 on it, but you -- I think you said that you had heard about such bombs,"
4 and we're talking about modified air bombs here, "being used in -- from
5 the ground; that is to say, that they are being launched with rocket
6 launchers in a modified way. That's why we call them modified air bombs.
7 So you heard about them; is that correct?"
8 Your answer:
9 "This description that you gave just now as to what this looks
10 like is something that I first heard during my interview with the
11 investigator; that is to say, on the 3rd of August last year. They
12 actually told me what this was like. That was the first time I learned
13 about this, from them, how these bombs were modified and how they were
14 launched. I personally had never seen this weapon being used in that
15 way, as in land launched."
16 You were then asked about when you first heard of air bombs being
17 launched from the ground in very precise questioning by the Prosecutor
18 Alex Whiting. Could we go to e-court page 108, which is T 4074, that's
19 the transcript page, lines 3 to 14.
20 "Q. I really want to be precise here. Did you ever hear about
21 modified air bombs being used by the SRK.
22 "A. I never heard this term 'modified.' What I heard was that
23 air bombs were being used. That's what I heard.
24 "Q. And when you heard about air bombs being used, how were they
25 being used? Were they being launched from the ground, or were they being
1 dropped by airplanes?
2 "A. I already said that during the interviews with the
3 investigators, I heard for the first time that they had been launched
4 from the ground. I wasn't familiar with that kind of weapon or the mode
5 of its use, and I still don't know anything about it. That's when I
6 heard for the first time that this bomb was being launched from the
8 That's your earlier testimony under oath. I want to now show you
9 some documents that relate to that.
10 MR. NICHOLLS: P01782, please.
11 Q. This is the SRK command 7 April 1995 regular combat report --
12 MR. NICHOLLS: Oh, I'm sorry -- sorry. That's not the document I
13 want P01309, please. P01309. That's correct coming up. All right.
14 Q. This is an SRK command preparation for action order Talas 1. All
15 right. It's a preparatory order. Let's look at page 2 of the English,
16 we can -- page 2 of the Serbian as well. The date of this document again
17 is 21st April, 1995. Could you look at paragraph 2.
18 "Proceed forthwith to prepare launchers and make sure that four
19 to six aerial bombs can be launched simultaneously against a designated
20 target, the condition being that they must hit the target, which means
21 that provisions have to be made for more bombs so that in the event of a
22 miss the next projectile lands on the target."
23 This document refers to aerial bombs being launched from the
24 ground - correct - the section I just read out?
25 A. No, I don't understand this. It's probably from the ground. It
1 doesn't say so. I personally never saw this kind of asset. This
2 document was drafted by the operations order in co-operation with the
3 chief of artillery and so on and so forth. I never saw this type of
4 asset, but I must say that an aerial bomb is a permissible asset and it
5 was used by the JNA. And it was taken from their depot. The way it is
6 launched, how it is launched, I don't know that, that's what I stated
7 because I had never seen it, but I understand the principle because I am
8 an officer whose specialty is to be an air officer. But whether the
9 launcher's on the ground or on a vehicle, I don't know that because I
10 never observed it being mounted --
11 Q. [Overlapping speakers]
12 A. -- this was not my narrow specialty. I would have wished
13 to have --
14 Q. Let me stop you there. Did the RSK have the ability to drop
15 aerial bombs from airplanes while you were there? Was there an operating
16 air force, your specialty? The answer is no. Correct?
17 A. There was a no-fly zone there. The corps opposite did not have
18 any conditions put in place to use air force --
19 Q. [Overlapping speakers]
20 A. -- i.e., it did not have military aircraft, military helicopters.
21 Q. Thank you. Let's go to the next page in each language, please.
22 All right. Now, you're named in paragraph 6 as part of this order,
23 correct, so you should have received this order?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you. Can I now go to 24322. This is an SRK command highly
1 confidential order firing at rapid intervention forces dated 2nd of
2 September, 1995, it's type-signed by you, Luka Dragicevic. It states:
3 "I hereby order:
4 "1. Prepare artillery fire for support of the units according to
5 the plan 'Talas 1,'" which we just looked at, "which was handed to you in
6 July of this year."
7 Paragraph 3 :
8 "Igman and Ilidza infantry brigades will prepare A/B launchers
9 which will be ready for taking over of military posts according to the
10 plan Talas 1. Military post 1...," I'll skip a bit, "activities on
11 targets 1 to 15."
12 Further down a little bit you'll see:
13 "Igman and Ilidza infantry brigades will prepare 2 FABs each of
14 250 and 105 kilogramme and load them onto the vehicles of the Igman
15 Infantry Brigade and 3rd Sarajevo Infantry Brigade which will also load
16 from their own reserves four FABs of 250 and 105 ..."
18 "We suggest that the SRK command should deploy the 3rd Sarajevo
19 Infantry Brigade A/B launcher, which is currently positioned in Trnovo
20 for the activities from the direction of Lukavica."
21 All right, this is your document, it's an order to prepare air
22 bombs to be launched from the ground; correct?
23 A. I have already told you once that I personally never saw that
24 asset, so I don't know whether it was to be launched from the ground or
25 from elsewhere. Second of all, I did sign this document in the role -- I
1 suppose that that was in the role of a duty operations officer. At the
2 moment when the commander was not there, when he was not at the command
3 so he couldn't sign himself, that duty operations officer has the right
4 to sign a document of that kind. The document was compiled by the organs
5 of the command, the operative organ, the chief of artillery of the
6 command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. In other words, they were all
7 professionals. It was my task to sign such a document. They were not
8 able to do it. It was only the person who at that moment stood in for
9 the commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. At that time, it was me
10 acting as the duty operations officer in the centre. I apologise. The
11 commander of the IKM. I was the commander of the forward command post 2,
12 correct. Now it is correct. And I had my inner circle of command which
13 also consisted of some people. There was no difference between us and
14 the SRK. I was in charge of a smaller part of the corps. It was 51st
15 [indiscernible] smaller in territorial terms.
16 Q. [Overlapping speakers]
17 A. At my forward command post I also had the chief of artillery, and
18 I also had the operative officer, the chief of communications, and so on
19 and so forth who were all members of the forward command post and they
20 compiled this document in professional terms and I had the right to sign
21 it. I am not -- I was not a professional body. I was not a specialist
22 either for the -- for artillery or communications. However, I played the
23 role of the commander of the forward command post 2. That would be my
24 integral answer to your question.
25 Q. Okay. We just agreed that the SRK could not shoot, launch,
1 whatever you want to call it, air bombs from the air because you had no
2 aircraft. Where else can they be launched from if not the ground, if
3 it's not from the air? You didn't have submarines either. Where else
4 could you launch them from if not the ground, if you don't have an air
6 A. It's not either/or. I said what I know. I did not see how the
7 launching of an aerial bomb was carried out, how that launcher was
8 prepared. I did not see it personally, so I don't know the details,
9 whether it was from the ground, from a lorry. I didn't see that and most
10 probably it was not launched from an aircraft.
11 Q. It wasn't launched from an aircraft. If it's launched from the
12 back of a truck, isn't that still launching from the ground as opposed to
13 from a plane?
14 A. It's not from the air. I suppose that it was from the ground,
15 but it could have been from a platform on the sea or on the river
16 surface, for example.
17 Q. Okay.
18 MR. NICHOLLS: May I tender that document?
19 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll admit it.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Document 24322 receives number P6051,
22 Your Honours.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I go to P01202, please.
24 Q. This document is also about Talas 1. It's from the next day, 3rd
25 of September, 1995, and it's also from you. It's urgent. It's a report
1 from the brigade command, decision on conclusions and requests. On page
2 1 we can say it's good -- you say it's good that these attacks were not
3 carried out. But I want to go to page 2 of both and look at part (C).
4 Again, this is from you.
5 "Aerial bombs --" (C)(2).
6 "Aerial bombs and other ammunition kept in the 'Pretis' are to be
7 urgently distributed to brigades for security reasons and possibility of
8 prompt use. Probably it would not be possible to deliver these items
9 when required."
10 So you here are ordering air bombs being delivered to brigades
11 for use when you have no aircraft. That means you're delivering --
12 you're ordering that they be delivered for use from being launched from
13 the ground; correct?
14 A. May I see the first page? I failed to notice the date when --
15 Q. Certainly --
16 A. -- this decision, i.e., that report was issued.
17 Q. Certainly, it's 3rd September 1995, but you can look at the front
18 page if you want to.
19 A. No, no, I believe you. The 3rd. Very well. Just a moment,
20 please. So I was still acting as a commander of the IKM 2 of the
21 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps --
22 Q. Do you remember my question?
23 A. This is not the way it was -- yes, I remember. I remember it
24 very well. Your statement and your question --
25 Q. [Overlapping speakers]
1 A. -- was not good for the following reason. This supply was not
2 for a future use. It could have been if needed; however, at that moment
3 for three or four days we had been bombarded by NATO. Pretis had been
4 completely destroyed, and aerial bombs remained intact by accident. And
5 since this was all in one place, this was distributed to brigades because
6 they could stock them, they could stock them in depots so as to save them
7 and so as to be distributed evenly. And that was the purpose of this
8 order, i.e., of this document that you asked me about. It doesn't say
9 anywhere here that they should be used. It says that if need be they
10 could be used.
11 Q. Promptly, prompt use?
12 A. Just a moment. Just tell me where -- a possibility of rapid use,
13 not prompt use. It doesn't say "prompt use," it says "rapid."
14 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, I'm putting it to you, sir, you were not
15 truthful when you testified here last time this -- for that Honourable
16 Trial Chamber. I'll remind you what you said:
17 "I already said during the interview with the investigators I
18 heard for the first time -- during the interview with the investigators I
19 heard for the first time they had been launched from the ground. I
20 wasn't familiar with that kind of weapons or the mode of its use and I
21 still don't know anything about it. That's when I heard for the first
22 time that this bomb was being launched from the ground."
23 We've looked at documents signed by you that describe what these
24 bombs are and how they are to be launched. I suggest to you you tried to
25 hide even your knowledge of air bombs, you tried to hide your knowledge
1 of how they were used from the Trial Chamber last time you testified
2 here. Let me read you one --
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, can we make a decision in
4 the interpretation. Is it "ground" or is it "soil" or "land"? So can
5 the interpreters finally make a decision what term they're going to use?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer --
7 MR. NICHOLLS:
8 Q. You may answer. This may help you. Let me show you one more
9 thing you said.
10 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I have 65 ter 2427 --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I want to answer the question that
12 you put to me --
13 MR. NICHOLLS: All right.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I need to focus.
15 JUDGE KWON: Let's hear the answer.
16 MR. NICHOLLS:
17 Q. Please go ahead.
18 JUDGE KWON: I see the time.
19 Yes, proceed, Mr. Dragicevic.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course I was telling the truth
21 then and I'm telling the truth now. I'm still telling you that I never
22 saw that asset in operation. I never saw any launchers, and I know so
23 much about bombs that I can talk about them until cows come home, but the
24 point of questioning so far was that that was an aerial bomb that was
25 modified. I claim that it cannot be modified as a bomb; it can only be
1 modified in terms of its use, whether it's launched, whether it's
2 throwing, whether it's -- you cannot modify a bomb which has a 105 kilos
3 of Trotol, any kind of modification or work on a bomb containing so much
4 explosive is banned, and I'm repeating, I never saw it being launched so
5 I can't lie. It's impossible for me to lie when I say that I did not see
6 that. I apologise to you --
7 THE ACCUSED: [Previous translation continues]...
8 MR. NICHOLLS:
9 Q. I have one last question for you today. You are trying to avoid
10 answering the question and you're talking about seeing air bombs. What
11 you testified to under oath last time you were here was that 2006 in your
12 interview with the OTP was the first time that you heard that this type
13 of bomb could be launched -- was launched from the ground, and that
14 wasn't true; correct?
15 A. Everything that I ever said has been the truth. What I'm saying
16 here today is the truth, but whether you understand me or whether you
17 want to understand me is an entirely different matter. I said then that
18 I never saw an aerial bomb weighing 250 kilos. I personally was involved
19 in --
20 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Dragicevic --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- working with 50 to 100 kilos
22 bombs, and as far as the principle is concerned -- go ahead.
23 JUDGE KWON: We'll adjourn here for today. But the question was
24 not whether you ever saw the aerial bomb yourself.
25 We'll continue tomorrow.
1 And, Mr. Dragicevic, I would like to advise you not to discuss
2 with anybody else about your testimony during
3 the [overlapping speakers] --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand. Thank you.
5 JUDGE KWON: We'll resume tomorrow at 9.00. Yes.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.50 p.m.,
7 to be reconvened on Friday, the 14th day of
8 December, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.