1 Monday, 17 December 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
5 JUDGE KWON: Good morning everyone. I understand there's a
6 change in the witness schedule.
7 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours. Good
9 morning to everyone.
10 Yesterday evening at the last proofing we obtained information
11 according to which the very important documents that we haven't had
12 access to so far - we weren't even aware of them - and they're extremely
13 important for the Defence. All we are requesting is that the order of
14 witnesses be changed so we can tender these documents and show these
15 documents, because there's no other way to do it. We can't do it through
16 anyone else, because the witness himself produced these documents. We
17 need this witness, therefore, to return so that we can deal with those
19 JUDGE KWON: What's difficult for me to understand is the fact
20 that witness has three or four binders of material relevant to your case
21 has come to light only on the date before testimony. Does it not reveal
22 that the Defence team does not really know what the witness will testify
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, had I been in
25 the field I would have known how to look for every document that he has
1 mentioned, but the investigator is there on his own and he doesn't have
2 any direct contact, any sure contact with me. It couldn't have been
3 otherwise. No one from the Prosecution was in the detention unit when
4 preparing the course, but when we are preparing the Defence, without me,
5 and it is I who am well-versed in all the various elements, it's not
6 possible to do everything properly.
7 These documents confirm what he will be testifying about. We
8 know what he'll be testifying about, but these documents confirm that,
9 and they confirm the Defence's positions.
10 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger, do you have any observation?
11 MR. TIEGER: Mr. President, I spoke briefly with the Defence
12 about this. I mean, I am aware of the fact that exigencies arise during
13 the course of the case. Nevertheless, normally speaking, lapses in
14 investigations are taken into account, and if they belatedly arise, then
15 parties live with that.
16 I was much more concerned about the impact of this proposed
17 scheduling change on the Prosecution's ability to prepare for the
18 following witnesses, so I tended to focus on that. I mentioned to the
19 Defence that I consider that the reason they presented to us by e-mail
20 last night for the proposed rescheduling of this witness might well be
21 one that would cause the Court concern, and I didn't go farther than that
22 with them.
23 It's not clear to me. I don't know if the documents in fact are
24 here and can be reviewed forthwith this week. I don't -- it's not clear
25 to me why they can't be obtained immediately and reviewed quickly for
1 that purpose. Beyond that, I wanted to emphasise that the repeated
2 adjustments to the schedule have wreaked havoc on the Prosecution's
3 ability to prepare, have caused us endless amounts of unnecessary work
4 and considerable stress. This was another example of that. At the same
5 time, the Defence has been extremely accommodating when we've requested
6 adjustments based on the new state of play. So it does appear that
7 there's a considerable degree of disorganisation, that it has an adverse
8 impact on the Prosecution and will have -- I think will have an adverse
9 impact this week requiring some adjustments to the schedule at the moment
10 if, in fact, Mr. Skiljevic is not going to testify this week, but I -- it
11 would be unfair if I didn't acknowledge the fact that within those --
12 that level of disorganisation the Defence has tried to ameliorate some of
13 the -- some of the adverse impact to the extent they could by consulting
14 with the Prosecution.
15 So I -- this is what I have to leave to the Court: I simply
16 don't understand the circumstances that gave rise to this emergency
17 request for rescheduling sufficiently, but I can only note that no
18 investigation can ever be considered to be complete. They can always go
19 on and on and on, and that's a factor that both parties have to live with
20 during the course of the case.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect, I would like
24 to remind everyone of the fact that it's not only that we started earlier
25 than we wanted to in March, but in less than two months we called 50
1 witnesses, and it is not that easy to follow such a pace. There were 50
2 witnesses, because the Prosecution in fact is using a little less time on
3 its cross-examination. So believe me, this is not deliberate. There are
4 no shortcomings when it comes to the Defence's organisation. It's just
5 that the pace is very brisk. Could this be taken into consideration,
6 because we have called so many witnesses in less than two months, and by
7 the break we will have had 50 plus 5 or 6 pursuant to 92 ter. So the
8 number of witnesses is quite enormous.
9 JUDGE KWON: I do believe that all the parties are doing their
10 best, and it's a fact that we are -- the speed we are proceeding is
11 something unanticipated before. But in any event, my point is that there
12 are still points on the part of the Defence to improve in terms of
13 organisation or preparation. It's difficult to understand that those
14 material you refer to could not have been found without your involvement.
15 Well, that said, unless there's anything further we'll bring in
16 the next witness.
17 Yes, Mr. Tieger.
18 MR. TIEGER: Yes. I also broached this with Mr. Sladojevic
19 briefly. It's not entirely clear to me why we couldn't proceed with the
20 witness and then he could be recalled if necessary to elaborate on any
21 additional documentation that might be considered significant by the
23 JUDGE KWON: Can you assist us on this point, Mr. Karadzic?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There three or four binders
25 containing additional documents, but I thought you had already decided
1 about the next witness, so I didn't want to get involved.
2 JUDGE KWON: So I take it your next witness is Mr. Izo Golic.
3 Very well. Let's bring him in.
4 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, I didn't quite -- I mean, I'm not sure what
5 the point is here. I don't know what Mr. Karadzic means by you had
6 already decided. I mean, we were notified last night -- this -- that
7 that was the Defence's intention. Now I'm simply wondering if this
8 option has been considered and -- and if not, why not, and the -- I don't
9 understand what Dr. Karadzic means by three or four binders that he
10 didn't want to get involved with. Again, part of the reason why I was
11 not in a position to opine more directly on what steps could be taken --
12 I don't know if that means the binders are here and they --
13 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
14 MR. TIEGER: -- declined to look at them or --
15 JUDGE KWON: If a party's not minded to present a specific
16 witness, is the Chamber still entitled to oblige the party to present
17 specific witness? Is that your case, Mr. Tieger?
18 MR. TIEGER: Mr. President, I wasn't asking you to order the
19 Defence to do so under these circumstances, but it did seem to me that
20 the Court was trying from the outset to grapple with the question of what
21 happened, why and what the options were, and that seemed to me to be one
22 option that was at least worth considering. It doesn't seem to have been
23 reviewed by the Defence, and Dr. Karadzic's response to the Court's
24 inquiry about that didn't illuminate it, but, no, I'm not asking you to
25 order the Defence to do so at this point, although -- although I do think
1 that there are circumstances where the Court could invoke its inherent
2 power to regulate the proceedings by saying the witness must go forward
3 or not be called at all, but I'm not asking the Court here to do that.
4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Tieger. And I take it you have no
5 problem to proceed with this witness at this moment.
6 MR. TIEGER: We have no -- I -- one of the reasons I wanted to
7 discuss the entirety of the scheduling -- actually, we can proceed with
8 this witness, but then when the witness leaves the stand, I think we have
9 to discuss the remainder of the week's schedule because that is a problem
10 in light of the circumstances.
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
12 MR. TIEGER: So we don't need to stop now, but it's when this
13 witness is completed I think we need to get some strong clarity on the
14 remainder of the week, and we have a lot of flexibility as the Court
15 knows in terms of time, but we will need to adapt some significant
16 adjustments so the Prosecution is in a position to
17 [Microphone not activated].
18 JUDGE KWON: Was your microphone on?
19 MR. TIEGER: Was it off? I'm so sorry. I might have turned it
20 off prematurely. Anyway, I do want to speak with the Court about how to
21 proceed after this witness, but the good news, to the extent it exists,
22 is that we -- we have sufficient time this week to make appropriate
23 adjustments that will allow the Prosecution to proceed under these
24 circumstances, assuming that we modify the schedule accordingly.
25 JUDGE KWON: Very well. After we have heard Mr. Golic's
1 evidence, we'll have some more concrete words as to the scheduling for
2 the remainder of the week.
3 [The witness entered court]
4 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Golic, I apologise for your inconvenience.
5 Would you take the solemn declaration, please.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
7 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
8 WITNESS: IZO GOLIC
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Please make yourself comfortable.
11 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Golic.
13 A. Good morning, Mr. President.
14 Q. Did you give the Defence a statement?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. The statement will be in the e-court system in a minute or two.
17 I'd like to see 1D6720. Have you read this statement?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you. Could I ask you to make a break between question and
20 answer, and I'll have to remind myself of that as well so that it's
21 easier for the interpreters.
22 Is everything you said accurately reflected in that statement?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Have you signed the statement?
25 A. Yes.
1 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
2 MS. EDGERTON: I don't know if it's only my e-court, because I
3 believe the witness is answering these questions without being able to
4 see his statement, because we don't have his statement displayed on our
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It will appear any minute now. We
7 sent it digitally, but we don't have the same means as the Prosecution,
8 so our Case Manager can't upload it directly. It has to go through an
9 intermediary from the Registry, and therefore we depend on the Registry
10 for this, but it was sent on Saturday, and we complete the statements
11 after the proofing when the witness signs it, and that's what they do,
12 too, but they can upload it directly. We can't.
13 JUDGE KWON: Does it mean that there's no revision from the draft
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] When it's necessary to review,
16 revise -- well, it wasn't signed up to the proofing, after the last
17 proofing. When the witness confirms that there are no mistakes, that
18 everything is accurate, then it is signed, we sent it, but we can't
19 upload it. And I don't see why our Case Manager shouldn't be in a
20 position to upload it as well, but this is identical to the draft
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes. My question was not precise. My point was
23 whether there's any change from the draft version, and I take it the
24 answer is no.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Correct.
1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Golic, do you have your statement with you now?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
3 JUDGE KWON: And on that basis are you satisfied with proceeding
4 at the moment, Ms. Edgerton?
5 MS. EDGERTON: Sure. I think we could also probably upload the
6 draft, which I thought was 1D6301, and then we can all see it.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Correct. 1D6301.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Mr. Golic, can you see your statement on the screen now?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You signed the statement, and it accurately reflects what you
13 said; isn't that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. If I were to put the same questions to you today, would the gist
16 of your answers be the same as the answers you provided in the statement?
17 A. Yes, they should be.
18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Golic.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender the
20 statement. 1D6720 is the number. It will be in the e-court system very
21 soon. We don't have any associated exhibits.
22 JUDGE KWON: Do you have any objection to the admission of the
23 signed statement which is to be uploaded --
24 MS. EDGERTON: No.
25 JUDGE KWON: -- in due course. We'll give the number for that.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D6720 receives number D2665,
2 Your Honours.
3 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I would now like to
5 read out a brief summary of the testimony.
6 [In English] Lieutenant Izo Golic did his compulsory military
7 service in Subotica in 1984 on 12-millimetre mortars and was discharged
8 from the JNA with the rank of lance corporal, trained for the duties of
9 commander of the 120-millimetre mortar squad. While in the army, he was
10 awarded the highest military commendation. He was assigned to the
11 120-millimetre Mortar Battery of the 216th Mountain Brigade of the JNA.
12 Later, the brigade was renamed 1st Romanija Brigade,
13 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.
14 Lieutenant Golic was aware that the Muslims were arming
15 themselves before the war. In early 1991, he bought a car from a Muslim
16 company, however, he never received the car. When he and a member of
17 other customers who had not received their cars visited the flat of one
18 of the company's owners, a large number of weapons were found in the
20 In June 1991, following the events in Slovenia and Croatia, there
21 was a general mobilisation of the 216th Mountain Brigade which recently
22 after that went to Banja Luka. However, due to an insufficient turnout
23 of the reserve forces, mainly because Muslim soldiers did not respond to
24 the call-up, the command was forced to reassign soldiers who had not
25 necessarily completed the appropriate training.
1 Whilst the brigade was in Banja Luka, two buses of the reservist
2 soldiers' relatives visited the unit and encouraged them to go home as
3 the Muslim soldiers had returned home or not responded to the
4 mobilisation and many Serb villages were unprotected. Following this,
5 soldiers began leaving en masse until the command had to return the unit
6 to base due to the lack of soldiers.
7 Izo Golic thought the political situation had calmed down.
8 However, the killing of a Serb wedding guest in March 1992 resulted in
9 fear and anxiety amongst the Serbian people. The Serbian people began to
10 organise themselves and a meeting was organised in the village of Gucevo
11 for those people who were in favour of preserving Yugoslavia. Mainly
12 Serbs attended.
13 On 16th of March, 1992, Izo Golic was called up for training.
14 The soldiers were given basic training. The reason for this training was
15 that a large percentage of the brigade were Muslim soldiers who had left
16 the JNA. Therefore, the brigade was replenished and the soldiers
17 required training.
18 In April 1992, the 216th Mountain Brigade was given orders to
19 remove the JNA weapons and military equipment from the depot in Faletici.
20 On 2nd of May, Muslim forces carried out an all-out attack on the JNA in
21 Sarajevo and the Rogatica battalion was mobilised. Attack was repeated
22 on 3rd of May. Approximately half of the soldiers did not come as they
23 feared for their lives or the lives of their families.
24 Once the battalion arrived in their positions, they -- in
25 Sarajevo region, they were under constant sniper fire from the Muslim
1 forces from Mojmilo. The battery was never manned to full capacity, and
2 many of the soldiers had not undergone any training for the battery. The
3 soldiers received orders regarding which targets to hit from higher
4 commands, and they mainly fired at previously spotted enemy targets from
5 which they were being fired at, and the battery would target staging
6 areas of the enemy infantry forces, several of which were civilian
8 On numerous occasions the Muslim forces would fire from the
9 Kosevo Hospital complex, always during cease-fires. However, the Serb
10 forces never received an order to return fire on the complex. On one
11 occasion the Serbian forces could not discern the weapons being used to
12 fire upon them from the national museum, and although they wished to
13 return fire, they received orders prohibiting operations against such
14 facilities. Muslim forces used the Jewish Cemetery near Grbavica to
15 attack, using tombstones as cover. The Serbian forces did not enter the
17 The Muslim forces had 120-millimetre mortars mounted on the vans
18 or trucks and tanks. Muslim forces would fire at the Serbian forces and
19 then retreat into a tunnel. They also had mortars mounted on the freight
20 cars on the railway that would fire shells toward the Serbian positions.
21 The Serbian forces only returned fire when they were being targeted by
22 the Muslim forces. The Muslim forces -- the Muslims were able to gain
23 heavy artillery weapons by seizing army barracks in Sarajevo, primarily
24 the Marsal Tito Barracks. The Muslim forces attempted to seize the
25 positions of the Serbian forces nearly every day.
1 His unit had strict orders not to open fire without authorisation
2 and operations against civilians were prohibited. The soldiers were
3 ordered to respect the Geneva Conventions. A letter from the command was
4 circulated amongst the soldiers. The letter stated that any soldier who
5 disobeyed this would face punishment. Izo Golic's battery never fired
6 shells for the purpose of intentionally -- intentionally hitting
7 civilians. They opened fire only on military targets. The targets at
8 which they fired were usually decided in advance on the basis of
9 information received from their men at positions. Izo Golic does not
10 think that there were any civilians on the lines of disengagement. His
11 unit evacuated civilians from their front lines.
12 The roads and streets of Grbavica were constantly exposed to the
13 Muslim sniper fire, and so shields were erected to hide civilians from
14 the view of Muslim snipers. The Lukavica-Vrace-Trebevic-Pale road was
15 constantly under sniper fire, so the Serbs were forced to use a much
16 longer road of inferior quality. This means -- this meant that the
17 transportation of wounded became very long and labourious as the road was
18 still not safe and also came under fire from snipers. The snipers were
19 positioned at the top of exclusively civilian buildings and fire was
20 opened almost constantly.
21 JUDGE KWON: Just a --
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have Mr. Golic's
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
25 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honours. I wouldn't normally by
1 any means rise at this point, but I find myself compelled to ask for a
2 citation for something Dr. Karadzic has read in the summary which I'm
3 presently not able find in the witness's evidence, and that line -- what
4 he's read that I question appears at page 11, lines 13 and 14, the
5 sentence saying:
6 "Attack was repeated on 3 May -- on 3rd of May."
7 The immediately preceding sentence which Dr. Karadzic read out is
8 contained in paragraph 12 of the witness's statement, but I simply don't
9 find this sentence I've just referred to anywhere in the witness's
10 evidence. I may be wrong, in which case I would be quite happy to hear
11 that, but otherwise I wonder if I could have a citation.
12 JUDGE KWON: Bearing the caveat that the summary does not form
13 the part of the evidence in any means, but could you clarify,
14 Mr. Karadzic.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that this comes from me.
16 It's not in the statement. But I think that this is such a well-known
17 thing that happened. It was even more drastic on the 3rd of May, and
18 that's why I thought that --
19 JUDGE KWON: It's unacceptable. It's not you that is giving
20 evidence, Mr. Karadzic.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise, but as I said, since
22 this is not evidence, I mean, the summary not evidence, I just thought
23 that it should be made clear to you which attack this is about, but in
24 the future I shall strictly adhere to the statement.
25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
1 Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] At this point in time I have no
3 more questions for corporal Golic. The statement is already in e-court.
4 1D6720 is the name -- is the number.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Mr. Golic, as you have noted, your evidence in
6 chief in Mr. Karadzic's Defence case has been admitted in writing in lieu
7 of your oral testimony. Now you'll be cross-examined by the
8 representative of the Office of the Prosecutor, Ms. Edgerton.
9 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
10 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
11 Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:
12 Q. Good morning, Mr. Golic. Can you hear me in a language you
14 A. Yes, yes. Good morning. I can hear you.
15 Q. Thank you. Mr. Golic, just before we begin, can you confirm that
16 this isn't the first time you've testified before this Tribunal? You
17 also appeared as a Defence witness in the prosecution of General Galic in
19 A. That's right, madam.
20 Q. And can you also confirm that you served in the immediate
21 Sarajevo theatre only up until October 1992? After that, you returned to
23 A. That's right.
24 Q. So when we look at your statement, we should understand a number
25 of the paragraphs, 13, 16, 17, 18, 21, 22, 23, 24, 26, 27, and 28, all
1 your observations set out in those paragraphs are limited to that time
2 period, up until October 1992?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And your unit never returned to the Sarajevo theatre any time
5 after that; correct?
6 A. The unit no longer existed when we returned to Rogatica. It was
7 attached to Light Rogatica Brigade.
8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the last sentence.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We did not go back.
10 MS. EDGERTON:
11 Q. The interpreter just did not hear your very last sentence after
12 the words, "It was attached to the Light Rogatica Brigade." Could you
13 repeat that and probably speak a bit more slowly.
14 A. All right. We no longer returned to the Sarajevo theatre.
15 Q. Right. Now, in your statement, at paragraph 31 you said,
16 "... every target" --
17 A. May I? I don't have the statement here. May I put it -- here it
18 says no page currently available. I don't have it on the screen, so it's
19 not available. Can I take out the statement, my own copy? Can I use a
20 hard copy of the statement, please.
21 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Golic, by all means. No problem with you
22 consulting your own statement.
23 MS. EDGERTON: Absolutely.
24 Q. If you could go to paragraph 31 there you said:
25 "... every target azimuth would be determined and any corrections
1 were carried out during shooting. As far as 120-millimetre shells are
2 concerned, a target is considered hit if the shell falls within a radius
3 of 50 metres."
4 So tell me if I have this right. That means if the first shell
5 falls outside the 50-metre [Realtime transcript read in error "30-meter"]
6 radius, then one would have to adjust the fire and fire again until the
7 target is hit. That's right, isn't it?
8 A. Fifty metres.
9 Q. Yes. The transcript presently reads "30," and that should be
10 "50." You're correct. So do I understand your evidence correctly in
11 paragraph 31 then, Mr. Golic?
12 A. Yes. I think that this is a term that is used in artillery and
13 that is called guiding. First it was the 3rd unit, the 3rd squad that
14 acted, and the rest can act only when the target is reached.
15 Q. All right. Now, another question about targeting. To
16 effectively neutralise a military target, any kind of structure or
17 building, for example, you'd never fire just one mortar round, would you?
18 A. It all depends on the effects attained. Sometimes only one can
19 destroy a target, say if it's a question of snipers. We were not
20 destroying a facility. We were neutralising enemy personnel.
21 Q. If you needed to neutralise a facility, would you do that by
22 firing only one round?
23 A. Again, I'm telling you if the effect has been achieved, then one
24 shell is sufficient. If we had set targets, places where the enemy
25 soldiers gathered, the enemy soldiers that were firing at our positions,
1 then we had the possibility of having these set targets as they're known
2 in artillery-speak; that is to say they had been located earlier on and
3 determined earlier on. That's what I'm saying in my statement too. I
4 don't see that there's anything different there.
5 Q. Uh-huh. So you would continue to fire until the target is
6 neutralised. It depends on the effect, what you've been able to achieve.
7 A. Well, in principle that would be it.
8 Q. All right. Now, for targets like a facility or a building, it's
9 correct that you would use a delayed-fuse mortar to fire, wouldn't you,
10 in order to achieve the maximum effect?
11 A. The delayed fuses were used.
12 Q. All right. And just always on -- with an eye to adjustments you
13 had to do while firing, I want to ask you about the type of ammunition
14 you had at your disposal. Is it correct that while you were deployed in
15 Sarajevo, you started to receive shells that were intended -- that had
16 been repaired and with different gunpowder charges from older production
17 which had been warehoused for a long time?
18 A. Seventeen kilogramme charges were used, contact-fuse shells
19 mostly, but we could not determine whether that is what was according to
20 standards. All charges are fairly similar. Of course with mortar
21 batteries, it's always important to determine a number of elements, the
22 altitude, the pressure, and so on, but of course there are people who
23 have to do that. We had mathematics professors who were doing that for
24 us and who did an excellent job.
25 Q. So to go back to my question, I asked you whether it was correct
1 that you started to receive shells that had been repaired and shells with
2 different gunpowder charges of older production that had been warehoused
3 for a long time, and is your answer to that yes or no?
4 A. For older ones, no, but there were these overhauled mines -- or,
5 rather, shells that were produced at that point in time.
6 Q. And that would affect precision of the mortar shells, wouldn't
8 A. Well, it would affect them, but all these factors had to be taken
9 into account. So there is always a risk with the first shell that is
10 fired. That is an inevitable thing as far as artillery is concerned.
11 Q. Now, in paragraph 18 of your statement, you talk about tanks held
12 by the ABiH across from your zone two tanks. Can you confirm that these
13 two tanks, would could only -- or you could only see the barrels? You
14 couldn't actually see the tanks, could you?
15 A. The tanks' turrets could be seen as well.
16 Q. And the tanks -- the tanks were actually --
17 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Yes, Mr. Karadzic?
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The transcript, 23, 24, page 18,
19 the witness said that all of that was taken into account by the persons
20 who were doing the calculations, all of these elements that would change
21 the status of the shells. So the word "the persons who would be doing
22 the calculations" is missing.
23 JUDGE KWON: Do you confirm that, Mr. Golic?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Let's proceed.
1 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
2 Q. And you can confirm, can't you, that these tanks of which you
3 could only see the turrets were actually dug in, they were immobile;
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you didn't personally see them firing either, did you, you
8 A. No. Perhaps they were mobile. When I saw them, they were dug in
9 below Kosevsko Brdo.
10 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. I don't have anything further,
11 Your Honours.
12 JUDGE KWON: Very well. That concludes your evidence, Mr. Golic.
13 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, perhaps Dr. Karadzic might have a
14 question in redirect.
15 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry, yes. I take it -- Mr. Golic, I
16 apologise. I was carried away to hectic witness schedule order.
17 Do you have any re-examination, Mr. Karadzic?
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, your Excellencies, just one.
19 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
20 Q. [Interpretation] So could I ask you, Lieutenant, on which
21 occasions was only one or shells -- one or two shells fired? Can you
22 remind us when it was sufficient to fire only one or two shells?
23 A. Well, mostly when it had to do with sniper shooters who would
24 stop shooting immediately or other targets that were not there when the
25 enemy attack was being prepared, so that is to say that if there was
1 individual firing at our lines. Perhaps it was not explained here that
2 we had two companies in the battalion that were located at the
3 Jewish Cemetery and next to Vrbanja Bridge, and our units were most often
4 fired at at the Jewish Cemetery. So the enemy forces if they would fire
5 at us up there, then we would respond with one or two shells but only on
6 orders. I point that out once again here. It was strictly forbidden to
7 wilfully target without orders.
8 Q. Thank you. Can you conclude on the basis of the number of
9 shells, if there was just one or two shells, whether it would happen that
10 one or two shells would be fired with a view to terrorising civilians in
12 A. Civilians were never our target, and we never thought --
13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the end of the
15 JUDGE KWON: It's not necessary.
16 Mr. Karadzic, that's typical leading question.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I withdraw the question.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask the
19 Presiding Judge, if I may, could I just say two words?
20 This question is a question that is being brought up time and
21 time again in the media in the federation. When I arrived here, I was
22 assaulted verbally by a newspaper, and I'm probably going to sue them.
23 It's on account on what President Karadzic asked me about now, and I
24 think that that has to do with that --
25 JUDGE KWON: It's unnecessary this time, Mr. Golic. If you could
1 concentrate on answering the question posed by Mr. Karadzic. It is
2 Mr. Karadzic to pose questions.
3 Please proceed.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Your Excellencies, this
5 was based on the question put by the learned Ms. Edgerton, one or two
6 shells, and so on and so forth.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. So the question would then be: In these situations when you
9 fired one or two shells, was your intention to terrorise the citizens of
11 A. That was not our intention, and I think that citizens were not at
12 the lines between the Army of Republika Srpska and the
13 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. No normal person would keep their civilian
14 population on the lines themselves. I believe that they had been moved
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Lieutenant Golic. I
17 have no further questions.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes. That really concludes your evidence,
19 Mr. Golic. On behalf the Chamber, I would like to thank you for your
20 coming to The Hague to give it. You're free to go now.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President, and I
22 wish you success in your work.
23 [The witness withdrew]
24 JUDGE KWON: Come back to the scheduling -- witness scheduling
25 issue. So could you help me, Mr. Karadzic, as regards Mr. -- what's the
1 name? Mr. Skiljevic. I understand he's here at The Hague.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. Last night we had a proofing
3 session with Mr. Skiljevic.
4 JUDGE KWON: And you do not have his material you referred to in
5 your possession yet.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. We just received information
7 to the effect that this kind of material does exist and it is his lawyer
8 in Sarajevo who has that material.
9 JUDGE KWON: That being the case, would there be any problem if
10 we proceed with his evidence and then if need be you can recall him once
11 you have received the -- all the documents and reviewed them?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, the entire
13 course of the examination-in-chief will be different once we've had these
14 documents made available to us, the entire course, if you will. The
15 entire course of the examination-in-chief.
16 JUDGE KWON: But you prepared a draft witness statement which you
17 will not change, I take it.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It was prepared in the stage when
19 we were not aware of the existence of these documents. That's the
20 problem. The main Defence counsel is in detention, and that's the
21 problem, whereas that is not the case with the Prosecution.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE KWON: That being the case, what's the remainder of the
24 witness schedule for this week be like? So next we'll hear who?
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Maksimovic would be next now, and
1 then these five witness -- these five witnesses and the six the one,
2 Mr. Golic. That would be all the witnesses for this week. So
3 Maksimovic -- this would be the order: Maksimovic, Salipur, Stanic,
4 Sojic, Vujasin.
5 JUDGE KWON: And any observation or problem on the part of the
6 Prosecution, Mr. Tieger?
7 MR TIEGER: Thank you -- thank you, Mr. President. Yes, there
8 is. First of all, with respect to the very next witness, I believe
9 that -- who will be taken by Ms. Edgerton, I believe there's some
10 logistical issues that need to be resolved. We had to adjust for the
11 purposes of uploading documents, and in addition, she anticipated at
12 least a little more time, but more importantly with respect to the other
13 three -- four witnesses, rather, Mr. Vujasin in fixed for Thursday. So
14 let's set him aside. With respect to Salipur, Stanic and Sojic, given
15 our efforts and timing, we would simply ask that their examinations in
16 chief be handled today and the cross-examinations be kicked over to
17 tomorrow. That seems to me to be at least a modestly fair request under
18 the circumstances. It won't cost us any time, particularly given the
19 fact that Mr. Vujasin won't be testifying until Thursday and we will
20 obviously complete the examination of these witnesses with ample
21 remaining time this week.
22 So that's simply it. We need a little break. I need to consult
23 Ms. Edgerton for how long before Mr. Maksimovic. Then we could proceed
24 to do Mr. Salipur, Stanic and Sojic in chief today, conduct their
25 cross-examinations tomorrow and conclude with Mr. Vujasin on Thursday.
1 JUDGE KWON: So the crux of your submission is that we would not
2 enter into cross-examination of any of those three witnesses, Salipur,
3 Stanic and Sojic.
4 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Mr. President. Thank you.
5 JUDGE KWON: Do you take any position with that.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That isn't a problem for the
7 Defence. That isn't a problem for the Defence.
8 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Then before bringing the next witness,
9 the Chamber will now issue an oral ruling on the Prosecution's motion to
10 exclude in part the evidence of Witness Zdravko Salipur filed on the
11 12th of December, 2012, wherein the Prosecution requests that the Chamber
12 order that part of paragraph 24 as well as paragraphs 25 to 28 be
13 excluded from the witness statement. The Prosecution submits that these
14 paragraphs are irrelevant to the charges in the indictment as they
15 pertain to crimes allegedly committed by Muslims against Serb citizens of
16 Sarajevo in Popalic in May 1992. I said Popalic.
17 The accused responded on 13th of December, 2012, opposing the
18 motion and submitting that the expected evidence is relevant to rebut the
19 allegations in paragraph 14(C) to the indictment that the accused was
20 "disseminating, encouraging, and/or facilitating the dissemination of
21 propaganda to Bosnian Serbs."
22 The accused further contends that the expected testimony is
23 relevant to show that crimes alleged in the indictment may have been
24 committed out -- committed out of revenge and to provide context to the
25 events in Sarajevo in 1992. The Chamber considers that the information
1 in part of paragraph 24 as well as paragraphs 25 to 28, which is sought
2 for exclusion, is no different from the information which in the
3 Chamber's practice has been excluded on the ground that it is detailed
4 tu quoque evidence. The Chamber therefore grants the motion and excludes
5 paragraph 24 from "on the 4th of May, 1992," onwards as well as
6 paragraphs 25 to 28 and allows the accused to tender the remainder of
7 Zdravko Salipur's statement pursuant to Rule 92 ter.
8 Finally, the Chamber orders that the Prosecution shall have about
9 an hour for its cross-examination.
10 MR. TIEGER: Mr. President, just to -- Mr. President, sorry.
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
12 MR. TIEGER: Just to remind the Court. We can proceed with the
13 examination-in-chief. Ms. Edgerton, as I mentioned, had some issues both
14 technical in nature and otherwise that needed to be resolved before she
15 could commence cross. She can do it today, but --
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll take break after the examination-in-chief
17 and see where we are afterwards.
18 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honours. I'm grateful.
19 [The witness entered court]
20 JUDGE KWON: Let the witness take the solemn declaration.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
22 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
23 WITNESS: RATOMIR MAKSIMOVIC
24 [Witness answered through interpreter]
25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Maksimovic. Please make yourself
2 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
5 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Colonel, or would it be better to say
6 Naval Captain.
7 A. Good day.
8 Q. Did you give the Defence team a statement?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Since we are speaking the Serbian language, I would like to ask
11 you to make a pause for the benefit of the interpreters and the
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see 1D6709 on the screen,
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Can you see the -- can you see the statement on the screen?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did you read the statement? Have you signed it?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Could you please just wait for the transcript to come to an end.
21 Does this statement accurately reflect what you said?
22 A. Yes, under oath.
23 Q. If I were to put the same questions to you today, the same
24 questions that were put to you by the Defence team, would your answers in
25 substance be same time?
1 A. Yes, yes.
2 Q. Thank you. I will now read out a brief summary in English.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I tender this statement now?
4 We also have four associated documents. There are no additional ones.
5 JUDGE KWON: Shall we move into private session briefly.
6 [Private session]
14 [Open session]
15 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE KWON: So we'll give the numbers for both versions.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D6709 receives number D2666.
18 Associated --
19 JUDGE KWON: We are dealing with the 92 ter statement only. So
20 we -- D2666 will be admitted and put under seal, and public -- we give
21 the public redacted version number of Defence Exhibit D2667.
22 And let's come to the issues of associated exhibit. Do you have
23 any observations, Ms. Edgerton?
24 MS. EDGERTON: I do, actually. I -- my submission would be --
25 pardon me one moment.
1 JUDGE KWON: I take it you are tendering four documents.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's right, your Excellency.
3 MS. EDGERTON: I -- my submission would be the document in
4 paragraph 71. 1D8357 is not -- actually it's irrelevant and the same
5 with respect to 1D8356, 1D8357 being not by the nature of their comments
6 an indispensable part of the statement.
7 JUDGE KWON: Let's deal with the associated exhibits one by one.
8 Shall we upload first 1D8110. My question is whether the English
9 translation is a correct one. I see three pages in the B/C/S version and
10 the English seems to be only one page.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's possible, your Excellency.
12 It was used in the course of the previous testimony, and we were
13 satisfied with what had been translated.
14 JUDGE KWON: So the English translation is the translation of
15 part of the document referring to para 1 only, "Enemy."
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps you're right. Perhaps it
17 should be marked for identification because on the next page -- or,
18 rather, on the last page there is a paragraph which is about the
19 relationship between these two high-ranking officers and it could be of
20 importance. It wasn't admitted in the course of the first testimony.
21 Could we see the third page in the Serbian language. Or could we do this
23 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, there is a translation of this
24 document. I can ask my colleague Ms. Langenberg, who by the way hasn't
25 appeared before Your Honours yet in these proceedings, to release that,
1 and that's going to be of assistance. And relying on the existing
2 translation, Your Honours, I apologise, I didn't realise the one that had
3 been uploaded was incomplete. My oversight.
4 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Then we'll admit this one as an
5 associated exhibit. Shall we give the number.
6 THE REGISTRAR: The number would be D2668, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE KWON: And, Mr. Karadzic, in coming to 1D8357, I agree with
8 Ms. Edgerton that it's irrelevant. So if you have specific points, I
9 would like you to lead live with the witness. And with respect to other
10 documents referred to by Ms. Edgerton, the Chamber is of the view that it
11 forms indispensable and inseparable part of the document, so we'll admit
12 them too, the two documents. Shall we give the numbers for 8356 and
14 THE REGISTRAR: Document 8356 receives number D2669 and document
15 8358 receives number D2670, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, your Excellencies.
18 Ideal with that document after I have read out the summary. I will now
19 read out the summary in English.
20 [In English] Ratomir Maksimovic was born on
21 13th of February, 1993 -- 1943. Between 12th of November, 1990 and June
22 1991, he was employed at the JNA school centre, Banjica, department of
23 naval tactics. Between June 1991 and 22nd of April, 1992, he worked at
24 the military historical institute, Belgrade.
25 Ratomir Maksimovic was transferred as -- at personal request from
1 Belgrade to the 2nd Military District in Sarajevo because he is
2 originally from Ilidza and his family was there at the time. Between
3 April 22nd, 1992, and June the 22nd, 1992, he worked at Sarajevo at the
4 2nd Military District as an information organ. Between June the 2nd --
5 22nd, 1992, and April the 1st, 1993, he returned to work at the military
6 historical institute in Belgrade. From April the 1st, 1993, to September
7 the 1st, 1994, he was in the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command. Between
8 1st of September, 1994, and 15th of October, 1994, he was assistant
9 commander of the navy in Kumbor Montenegro in Yugoslav Army. Between
10 15th of October, 1994, and 30th of April, 1995, he worked in the history
11 department of the military academy. Finally, between
12 30th of April, 1995, and 31st of March, 1996, he was once again in the
13 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.
14 Colonel Maksimovic has knowledge of the military organisation and
15 arming of Muslims before the conflict broke out in -- in BH and Sarajevo.
16 In Sarajevo city, the Muslim authorities had the
17 1st Corps of BH Army under their control between April 1992 and
18 December 1995. They had positions at dominant high points in and around
19 the city, including in civilians -- including in civilian features and
20 heavy artillery spread out everywhere in the city. Its units also
21 stretched deep in the area under Muslim control.
22 The Sarajevo-Romanija Corps was a defence unit, and its members
23 were aged from 20 to 60. In the entire Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, there
24 were 20 -- 15 to 20 professional soldiers, most of
25 them -- [indiscernible] most of them at command level. The rest were
1 reserve officers and people trained on the job. It was mainly a people's
2 army. The lack of professional command affected combat abilities of the
3 units, which were not able to carry out offensive combat operations.
4 Operations were not part of a systematic or widespread attack on
5 civilians. The Sarajevo-Romanija Corps could not and did not consciously
6 make it impossible for the Muslim government in Sarajevo to control the
7 conditions of life of the civilians in the city which they controlled.
8 He did not -- Muslims controlled. He did not know that the final goal of
9 the Serbian authorities was to divide Sarajevo. He did have knowledge
10 about offers to completely demilitarise the city, which was personally
11 advocated by Mr. Karadzic, as well as to surrendering control of the
12 airport to the UN in June 1992 in an attempt to calm the war down. He
13 also had knowledge of offers to have all heavy weapons of both sides
14 placed under UN control, but there was a lot of mistrust on both sides
15 regarding objective control by the international forces.
16 There was no strategy. Instead, the situation was imposed by the
17 1st Corps of BH Army and not by Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. Had the
18 1st Corps of BH Army broken out of Sarajevo, it would have an affected
19 the other fronts and the course of the war in BH. The main task was to
20 protect Serbian territories and the civilian population and to prevent
21 any mass movement of the BH Army 1st Corps in Sarajevsko Polje. This
22 prevented these forces from joining others and massacre civilian
23 positions and -- Serbian positions and civilians. He draws this
24 conclusion based on the fact that when he was captured by the Muslim
25 paramilitary forces and held at Hotel Evropa, he was told that after
1 breaking through to Ilidza, Muslim forces would kill and slaughter anyone
2 in their way.
3 They had no intention -- the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps had no
4 intention of causing civilian casualties or terrorising or having
5 psychological impact on the civilians in the area under Muslim control.
6 The Sarajevo-Romanija Corps did not issue or receive any oral or written
7 orders to attack civilians or means of public transportation in the area
8 of the city under Muslim control. General orders stated that fire should
9 be opened against the positions from which it came and against moving
10 forces intended for reinforcement. Political and military leadership
11 from the beginning of the war on the Serb side gave orders not to attack
12 civilians. When military targets in civilian zones were attacked, the
13 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command warned the enemy by lodging protests with
14 the UN. Whenever the command found out about possible civilian
15 casualties, it suspended fire in order to avoid such victims.
16 Conversely, civilians in the zone of responsibility of the
17 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps were in a state of fear and uncertainty due to
18 permanent shelling and sniping by the BH Army. Thousands of civilians
19 were killed from the beginning of the war until the autumn 1995.
20 Ammunition in Sarajevo-Romanija Corps was scarce and orders
21 stated that it should be used as a rarely as possible. He had no
22 knowledge of professional snipers in the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps but knew
23 about snipers in the BH Army 1st Corps and their firing against civilians
24 in the city under Serbian control. There was also discussions about them
25 firing also at civilians in the city under BH control, army -- BH Army
2 The attitude of superior commands of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps
3 was that humanitarian aid should be supplied across Serbian territory.
4 They had information about humanitarian convoys being misused by
5 military -- for military purposes for the BH Army 1st Corps. UNPROFOR
6 itself transported military materiel in these convoys. Therefore, the
7 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps occasionally checked convoys. They also had
8 knowledge about the existence of a black market where those goods were
9 sold in the city controlled by the Muslim authorities. As for civilian
10 use of water, electricity and gas in the city under Muslim control,
11 everything was normal during cease-fires. During combat, combat
12 operations, supply was reduced but not because the
13 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps but due to the operations from the city under
14 Muslim control against power transmission lines and water supply system.
15 Corps command of Sarajevo-Romanija Corps did not prevent the
16 freedom of movement of civilians from one side to the other. They had
17 knowledge that Serbian civilians in the part of the city under Muslim
18 control were not allowed to leave the city. Security organs had
19 information about the existence of criminal groups in the units of the
20 BH Army 1st Corps, the activities of which would not have been possible
21 without the approval of Alija Izetbegovic.
22 Ratomir Maksimovic knew about the existence and production of
23 modified air-bombs for defensive reasons to shoot at targets on the
24 ground. They were in the arsenal of Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. They were
25 used as a last resort and had a low range of 1 to 2 kilometres.
1 In March 1994, a group of unarmed volunteers joined the Vogosca
2 brigade to man positions of Golo Brdo and Vis. They stayed for less than
3 a month and left unarmed. They were under the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps
4 command and adhered to the international law of war. The army was
5 energetic to eliminate paramilitary formations whereas Muslim
6 paramilitaries launched attacks on the JNA members.
7 There was some friction and misunderstanding with municipal
8 authorities in Vogosca regarding resources and attempts by civilian
9 authorities to be involved in command and control. Mr. Maksimovic has no
10 knowledge about the relationship between Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and
11 general headquarter and the republican civilian authorities on the other
13 I think it should be translated. No, it is corrected. In
14 Serbian it was not corrected.
15 [Interpretation] Could we see 1D8357, please, just to make sure
16 of something.
17 JUDGE KWON: Before doing that, you would not take long for the
18 evidence in chief, but before doing that, when it comes to the statement
19 of a military officer, I often find the Defence statement not complete in
20 terms of position or ranks.
21 So take a look at paragraph 5 of the witness statement, so third
22 paragraph and last paragraph. The witness says:
23 "Between 1st of April, 1993, and 1st of September 1994, I was at
24 the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command."
25 In what capacity and in what rank? And then last paragraph as
2 "Between the 30th of April, 1995, and 31st May, 1996, I was once
3 again in the SRK command."
4 So could you lead the witness as to those points.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Colonel, sir, did you understand these periods? Can you tell us
7 what positions you held when you were first in the Sarajevo-Romanija
8 Corps from the 1st of April, 1993, until the 1st of September, 1994?
9 A. Yes. Since I come from the navy and that's rather special, I was
10 chief for morale. Actually, I was assistant to Galic, so I was the
11 number-two person in the department for morale and information.
12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not hear the dates.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] However, as an officer from the
14 corps I was sent to Vogosca, Blazuj, Ilidza several times, and I went
15 there in the interests of the corps. I went to see how I could help them
16 and so on and so forth. All right from April 1993 until the
17 1st of September, 1994, I was de jure and de facto chief for morale and
18 information in the corps command. So I was subordinated to the assistant
19 commander. Kosovac was Galic's assistant commander, whereas I was chief
20 in that department. So I was the number two person for morale. However,
21 since I came from the area myself, I was sent out to the area several
22 times Hadzici, Blazuj, Ilidza to view the situation on the ground, and
23 sometimes I'd stay there longer and I helped the officers in their work.
24 Q. Just slow down would you, please.
25 A. Has it been translated?
1 Q. Yes, but please do slow down. So far they've done it.
2 A. As far as 1995 is concerned -- or, rather, in September 1994 I
3 left the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, and I was in the navy. Well, you see,
4 I was involved in teaching in military schools, but they asked me to go
5 back to the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps because General Milosevic had the
6 intention of setting up barracks, barracks for Sarajevo-Romanija Corps,
7 and I would be in charge of organisation and establishing these barracks
8 in the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. So this is of just --
9 Q. Please, can you not speak slowly. Could you please speak at a
10 different pace altogether.
11 A. All right. In 1995, in the month of April, at the request of
12 General Milosevic, I came back to the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps because
13 General Milosevic wanted to establish barracks for the
14 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, that is to say to create a peacetime institution
15 at the level of barracks. I was supposed to organise that and to
16 establish this logistics institution for the army. However, in view of
17 the situation in 1995, all the way up until -- well, throughout 1995,
18 until Dayton, practically all that time was spent in combat operations
19 because the corps was subjected to constant fighting all the way up to
20 Dayton. In the meantime, our positions were bombed so I could not carry
21 out this plan. I stayed with them until the 31st of March, 1996, when I
22 asked in writing to be returned and General Milosevic allowed me to
23 return to the Army of Yugoslavia.
24 Q. Thank you. Just one more question. In the first period as chief
25 of the organ for morale, you say that you toured different positions and
1 reported on that. Who did you report to and about what?
2 A. Well, mostly I report in writing and orally to Kosovac, my
3 superior, and then he reports to Galic. So that's the chain. Kosovac
4 was between us. He was my immediate superior.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, will this do now?
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have 1D8357, just
8 for a moment, please. Could we please have that in e-court.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Could you please tell us, Colonel, what this means: Officers at
11 RKM Pale, and what does RKM mean?
12 A. RKM is reserve or alternate command post. I was there from the
13 22nd until the 30th of April, 1992, at the Turist hotel. This was this
14 hotel called Turist in Pale.
15 Q. That was the JNA at the moment?
16 A. Yes. It was the forward command post of the
17 2nd Military District.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can it be admitted now
19 if it would assist the Chamber?
20 JUDGE KWON: Why do we need this, Mr. Karadzic? I think we can
21 do without it.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Fine, Excellency, but the JNA had
23 all this organisation around Sarajevo, reserve command post, forward
24 command post. I thought that this would complete the picture, if you
25 will, of JNA action. The JNA was under threat. But I'm not opposing
1 this. I mean, I don't mind not tendering this.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sorry, there's something missing
3 here. We had a lieutenant-colonel or a Colonel Causevic, a Muslim, who
4 was up there with us, and he seems to be missing here.
5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
6 You're done, Mr. Karadzic?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE KWON: We'll have a break for half an hour, but before
9 that -- yes, Mr. Tieger.
10 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President. I think Ms. Edgerton
11 might have one matter to raise. I just wanted to note that I responded
12 to the point about scheduling of the remaining four witnesses. I did not
13 respond to Mr. Karadzic's point concerning the assertion that once he got
14 the documents the entire course of examination-in-chief will be
15 different. I think in fairness that's -- that seems a bit disingenuous.
16 These are not documents related to an entirely new matter but documents
17 apparently collected by and related to the witness who was relating
18 his -- what he saw and experienced presumably to the Defence and that is
19 reflected in his current statement. Beyond -- so beyond the fact that
20 presumably the information in those documents --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Tieger stop touching his microphone.
22 Thank you.
23 MR. TIEGER: Sorry about that. That was already reflected in the
24 statement, I think beyond that it would be rather speculative to suggest
25 that for some reason all the information given by this witness is -- is
1 going to change in the face of the documents which the witness had
2 available to him the entire time. I think the most that can be said is
3 there may or may not be documentary confirmation of what the witness is
4 asserting in his statement.
5 So I just wanted to make that observation in connection with the
6 accused's remarks one way or the other. It wasn't clear to me whether
7 the Court was still mulling over the schedule but I didn't have a chance
8 to respond to that claim before. I think it is an accurate one and
9 needed to be addressed.
10 JUDGE BAIRD: Dr. Karadzic, do you wish to comment at all
11 before --
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Only if the Chamber wants to review
13 its decision. However, I must say if the Chamber is going to review the
14 decision it has already reached, then I'm going to state my views. If
15 not, there's no need for me to say anything else.
16 JUDGE BAIRD: Mr. Tieger, we thank you very much indeed, but we
17 see no reason to go back on our decision. Thank you.
18 MR. TIEGER: That's fine, Your Honour. Thank you.
19 MS. EDGERTON: And --
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
21 MS. EDGERTON: I'm sorry, Your Honours. Dr. -- Mr. Tieger behind
22 me actually articulated my situation this morning, and I had actually --
23 knowing only the previous witness schedule, factored in a bit more time
24 for my preparation to proceed with the cross-examination today, and I'd
25 just like to ask you if I could be allowed to recover a little bit of
1 that time and your indulgence for a break of longer than half an hour at
2 this point, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE KWON: How long would you need?
4 MS. EDGERTON: Well, Your Honours, I would ask for an hour. I
5 would be prepared to go in whatever Your Honours determine, taking into
6 account the rest of the schedule that we need to meet for the day.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll take a break for an hour and resume at
8 quarter to 12.00.
9 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
10 --- Recess taken at 10.44 a.m.
11 --- On resuming at 11.48 a.m.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Mr. Maksimovic, as you have noted your
13 evidence in chief was admitted in most part in written form in lieu of
14 your oral testimony, now you'll be cross-examined by the representative
15 of the Office of the Prosecutor.
16 Ms. Edgerton, please proceed.
17 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honours.
18 Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:
19 Q. Mr. Maksimovic, can you hear me in a language you understand?
20 A. I can, yes.
21 Q. Wonderful. Thank you.
22 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, I'd like to deal with a brief area
23 in private session, if I may, and get it out of the way at the beginning
24 of the cross-examination.
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Could the Chamber move into private session.
1 [Private session]
11 Page 31576 redacted. Private session.
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
4 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
5 Q. Now, you were also referred to, Mr. Maksimovic, by Mr. Seselj in
6 his trial here at this Tribunal when at transcript page 8670 of those
7 proceedings he put portions of a statement you gave in Belgrade to one of
8 the witnesses in this Chamber, and my first question to you is: Can you
9 confirm that as Mr. Seselj said in proceedings here, you gave a statement
10 to his Defence team in the event you would be called as a Defence
12 A. I know what I wrote. They wanted my opinion on the commanding
13 officer of the combat line at the Jewish Cemetery, Aleksic, and I gave a
14 statement to that Aleksic confirming that he was disciplined, that he
15 worked in the corps, that he accomplished his missions and never
16 committed any crimes. I just gave a positive opinion on Aleksic, that's
18 Q. And just with regard to the content of that statement, I'd like
19 to read to you from page 8673 of the transcript in the Seselj proceedings
20 something that Dr. -- or Mr. Seselj quoted, and I'd like to ask if you
21 can confirm that. He says, starting at line 6 that you wrote:
22 "Aleksic never undertook anything on his own initiative or
23 without the knowledge of the corps command. He acted exclusively
24 pursuant to orders."
25 Can you confirm that that's what you set out in your statement
1 for Mr. Seselj?
2 A. I can confirm that, because that was also the opinion of the
3 corps command, that he did not do anything. He just defended his very
4 small area of responsibility very difficult and very dangerous, the
5 Jewish Cemetery.
6 Q. Now, I'd like to move on to another area, and still for a moment
7 on the subject of paramilitaries, the group of 40 unarmed men that you
8 refer to in paragraph 57 of your statement, can you confirm that that was
9 a group of Serbian Radical Party volunteers commanded by
10 Vojvoda Jovo Ostojic? Yes or no?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just for the benefit of the
12 witness, the Serbian interpretation was "Serbian Democratic Party,"
13 whereas the transcript is correct.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The defence of Vogosca was a very
15 difficult point for the corps command. Forty volunteers came, stayed for
16 less than a month. They were not armed. I did not make any inquiries
17 about them. I was apolitical. And they returned, and then later I
18 learned that this Ostojic belonged to Seselj's party. I had no
19 particular contact with them. I just saw them.
20 MS. EDGERTON:
21 Q. So your answer to my question is yes; is that correct?
22 A. Yes. Jovo was a member of Seselj's party. That's what I
23 learned. Now, who each of them individually was, I don't know. Yes.
25 Q. And this is the same group that had been participating in combat
1 in Vogosca from the beginning of the war until the end of 1992 or the
2 beginning of 1993, wasn't it?
3 A. That's not correct. I was not present in Vogosca. I only
4 arrived in 1993. What happened in 1992 in the autumn, I don't know, so I
5 cannot say anything about that group. I don't know what they did. When
6 I arrived, they were not there. More or less, all the paramilitaries
7 were disbanded in 1992 or disarmed --
8 Q. Now --
9 A. -- because we were working on establishing military discipline.
10 They were decimated, and they were no longer there.
11 Q. I understand your answer, but if you could just focus on my
12 questions. My next question is: This group when they arrived, as you
13 said in March of 1993, were invited by the commander of the
14 3rd Sarajevo Infantry Brigade, Dragan Josipovic, weren't they?
15 A. I don't know that he invited them. I really don't know that.
16 MS. EDGERTON: I'd like to have a look, please, at 65 ter
17 number --
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's news to me.
19 MS. EDGERTON: 24073. It's a report of the VRS security organ
20 dated 14 April 1994.
21 Q. And while we're waiting for that, Mr. Maksimovic, you're familiar
22 with who Colonel Ljubisa Beara is, aren't you?
23 A. I know I've heard of him.
24 MS. EDGERTON: Could we go over to the next page of this
25 document, please, in both languages.
1 Q. Now, on this date Colonel Beara writes that he was at the
2 Sarajevo 3rd Infantry Brigade intending a briefing of the battalion and
3 assistant commanders and the briefing was led by Colonel Maksimovic,
4 brigade Chief of Staff. The briefing was also attended by
5 Vojvoda Jovo Ostojic, the commander of the SRS volunteers detachment
6 which came to the 3rd Sarajevo Brigade at the end of March.
7 So not only did you hear of him, you've actually met him on
8 12 April 1994, haven't you, Mr. Maksimovic?
9 A. I met him because he got a line to defend with those 40 men. He
10 had to be present when tasks were issued, but that was not your original
12 Q. And --
13 A. I don't deny that I met him. He led this group of 40 people.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Again, the record does not reflect
15 the answer of the question. It was not your question, he said, whether I
16 met him or not.
17 MS. EDGERTON:
18 Q. Now, I note that the very first paragraph of this document refers
19 to you, Colonel Maksimovic, as Chief of Staff of the
20 3rd Sarajevo Infantry Brigade. You didn't mention that in your
21 statement, did you?
22 A. I said that the corps command sent me to Vogosca, to Ilidza and
23 Hadzici to lend them assistance. I spent a very short time there until
24 new people came to take over those duties, because I was not qualified,
25 being from a different service of the army. I would be there for a
1 transitional period of a month and a half. I said I've been to Vogosca.
2 Q. Now, Mr. Maksimovic, you've actually previously said that you
3 were ordered to report to Vogosca on 11 July 1993. Can you confirm that?
4 A. I don't remember the date, but I did go there certainly in
5 different periods. On the 13th of July, yes, I went there.
6 Q. And that was to take up service with the Vogosca Tactical Group;
8 A. Yes. I was at the staff of that group as the organ for morale,
9 because a great Muslim offensive was going on in July in Vogosca. I was
10 at the staff organising morale.
11 Q. So when Colonel Beara reports on 12 April 1994 that you were
12 Chief of Staff, are you saying that he's wrong in the report he made?
13 A. In 1994, this Tactical Group was disbanded, and because staff was
14 short, I was appointed Chief of Staff of the 3rd Sarajevo Brigade that
15 was established at the time. So there was a tactical group that was
16 disbanded to form the 3rd Sarajevo Brigade. I spent about a month and a
17 half there before being taken back to the corps.
18 Q. And when Dr. Karadzic asked you about your military background,
19 you didn't mention that to him either, your position as Chief of Staff?
20 A. It's not about my military background. I just carried out those
21 duties. It's not part of my military career. Those were duties given me
22 by the superior command.
23 Q. And --
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not sure the interpretation is
25 correct, "Carried out duties." We need to clarify with the witness
1 whether this would be acting Chief of Staff or not, because from what he
2 said in Serbian, it doesn't sound exactly the way it was interpreted.
3 JUDGE KWON: I think it's beyond the scope of proper
4 intervention, but will you ask the question again, Ms. Edgerton.
5 MS. EDGERTON:
6 Q. My question was: When Dr. Karadzic asked you about your military
7 background today, you also didn't mention to him your position as
8 Chief of Staff when you gave your answer; correct?
9 A. I'm saying I was not pursuing any career there, nor did
10 Mr. Karadzic ask me that question.
11 Second, I was in that chain of command completely uninteresting
12 to President Karadzic at the time.
13 JUDGE KWON: I do not understand by saying pursuing your career
14 there, but when I asked -- asked you about your specific position at the
15 SRK, you didn't mention that you were -- you were serving as
16 Chief of Staff in 3rd Sarajevo Brigade, did you? Probably you said that
17 you were sent out in the -- in the area.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My main duties were at the corps
19 command, and they would send me sometimes to Vogosca and to Ilidza and to
20 Blazuj and Hadzici to lend assistance. I thought it was an auxiliary
21 duty just to support the personnel that was in command of those areas.
22 JUDGE KWON: So did you or did you not take the position of the
23 Chief of Staff in the 3rd Sarajevo Brigade, as Mr. Beara referred to in
24 this report?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was there for about a month and a
1 half, perhaps two months, as Chief of Staff until the real command was
2 established staffed with commanding officers of the land forces.
3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
12 Q. Let's go back to this document again briefly, 65 ter 248073.
13 Now, this document indicates that the briefing that Colonel Beara had was
14 also attended by Jovo Ostojic, and in this briefing -- or pardon me,
15 before the briefing Colonel Beara said you had a talk with him and you
16 told him that Ostojic had confronted you for not giving the volunteers
17 any uniforms, weapons, or other equipment, and so you gave them what they
18 asked for. You gave the volunteers the arms they asked for. Wouldn't
19 you agree?
20 A. They did not have weapons. They came without weapons and asked
21 for them because they were not able to go up there. I did not give them.
22 They found them somehow, and then they got duties, but I don't remember
23 this Ljubisa or contacting him in Vogosca at all.
24 Q. Well, Colonel Beara reports at the last line of the second
25 paragraph on this page:
1 "Maksimovic rose above the whole thing and ordered his logistics
2 assistant to equip the volunteer unit."
3 So they may have entered the theatre unarmed, but the arms came
4 at your direction, Mr. Maksimovic, didn't they?
5 A. No, I did not make that decision to arm them. Somebody above me
6 made that decision and ordered it, because I did not have those
7 competencies and did not command the depots. They returned the weapons
8 when they were going back, leaving us 25 days later.
9 Q. Well, if -- who then was the somebody above you who issued the
10 order to equip the volunteers?
11 A. That happened somehow spontaneously, because we had this crisis
12 towards Vis. Weapons were gathered and given them. The logistics armed
13 them. They listed them all and they sent them to positions. We were not
14 happy, and 25 days later we pulled them back, disarmed them, and sent
15 them home.
16 Q. Is it your evidence that arms were released from SRK weapons
17 stores to volunteers on a spontaneous basis, spontaneously?
18 A. The SRK had nothing to do with it. Weapons were gathered from
19 the Vogosca brigade, from the Ilijas Brigade. There was a surplus weapon
20 there. Those weapons were taken and distributed to them. The SRK had no
21 weapons stores.
22 Q. I don't quite understand your evidence, because you've just said
23 the SRK had nothing to do with it and weapons were gathered from the
24 Vogosca and Ilijas Brigades. Were they not SRK brigade units?
25 A. Well, they were part of the SRK, but they have their own
1 logistics organs. The SRK can't meddle in those details. So things were
2 gathered from the Vogosca and Ilijas Brigade, from deceased soldiers,
3 because we had difficulty in obtaining this materiel. We gathered some
4 items, gave them to them and they went to positions. While they were
5 there, they weren't very disciplined. We sent them back and took the
6 weapons from them.
7 Q. Let's look at this document a little bit more, and I want to go
8 over to page 3 in the English, the top of page 3, and to scroll right
9 down to the bottom of page 2.
10 Now, this -- you've said in your statement that the numbers of
11 unarmed volunteers, which we now know are Vojvoda Jovo Ostojic's group,
12 the numbers -- their number was 40. Now, Colonel Beara writes that on
13 26 March, 95 volunteers came to the brigade and another seven on
14 11 April, which is more than two times the number of volunteers you
15 indicated in the statement you signed for Dr. Karadzic, isn't it?
16 A. I gave an accurate document. I don't know where Beara got this
17 figure from. He probably knew more, but they didn't come to where we
18 were. He was a high-ranking officer. I stand by what I say. The figure
19 of 40 is correct. As for his data, I know nothing about it.
20 Q. Is it your evidence that Colonel Beara knew more about this than
21 you did?
22 A. He certainly did. He was -- well ...
23 Q. Would you like to finish your sentence?
24 A. I said he certainly knew more than I did. He was a member of the
25 Main Staff. He had records. He had an insight into the entire
1 Army of Republika Srpska, so I can't compare myself to him with regard to
2 the information he had about the army and with regard to who had what.
3 MS. EDGERTON: Could I have this admitted as a Prosecution
4 exhibit, please, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Document 24073 receives number P6054,
7 Your Honours.
8 MS. EDGERTON:
9 Q. Now, in your statement you referred to a document with a
10 65 ter number 1D08110. It was a SRK combat report of 19 June 1994, and
11 if we can have a look at that document.
12 MS. EDGERTON: And I believe the full translation has now been
13 uploaded, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
15 MS. EDGERTON: And go over to, I think, paragraph 9 of this
16 report. Uh-huh. Section 9. And now if we could go over to
17 subparagraph (d), please, in both languages.
18 Q. Now, subparagraph (d), 9(d) of this document, Mr. Maksimovic,
19 recommends to the VRS Main Staff that:
20 "Naval captain Radomir Maksimovic should be urgently relieved of
21 his duty as Chief of Staff in the 3rd Infantry Brigade and deployed
22 outside the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps according to the decision of the VRS
23 Main Staff because he has a negative effect on his surroundings."
12 Q. Thank you. To go on to another area, and it's about arming, I'd
13 like to call up 65 ter 11199, please. It's an interview with "Nin" by
14 General Kukanjac, and the interview you can see in front of you is
15 entitled "My Truth," and it was given in Belgrade on 6 January 2000.
16 It's a kind of a report by General Kukanjac about the events in
17 Bosnia and Herzegovina, and if we go over to B/C/S page 3, English
18 page 5, I'd like to draw your attention to a particular paragraph.
19 Subparagraph (d) of this page reads according to
20 General Kukanjac:
21 "When we realised what was being done and what was going to
22 happen, we began to pull out the entire mobile assets of the JNA in a
23 timely manner. In an endeavour by both officers and soldiers employing
24 perfect organisation, we managed to pull out, preserve and retain
25 everything. Even if there had been cases of seizure by the enemy, we
1 would immediately make it up manifoldly. The Muslim-Croat horde never
2 got hold of a single plane, helicopter, tank, armoured personnel carrier,
3 gun, mortar, motor vehicle."
4 Now, this is actually quite contrary, I put it to you,
5 Mr. Maksimovic, to what you say in paragraph 66 of your statement, which
6 is that:
7 "JNA weapons stayed in the Viktor Bubanj, Marsal Tito, 2nd
8 military district command and Jusuf Dzonlic Barracks," isn't it?
9 A. This is the first time I have seen this interview. I think
10 Kukanjac was already deceased at the time. This is the first time I have
11 seen this, that I have seen these details. And my statement was based on
12 officers who had left the barracks. That was in June. It was based on
13 conversations with them. They said that they had left a lot of infantry
14 weapons there, some sort of a self-propelled rocket launcher, but it has
15 nothing to do with this text of Kukanjac's. I didn't know Kukanjac very
16 well. I'd only known him for a few days. These statements from former
17 JNA officers who withdrew from Sarajevo that I'm referring to -- and he
18 said that they had remained there.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please know or be told
20 which period Mr. Kukanjac is speaking about?
21 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours --
22 JUDGE KWON: But the witness said he didn't know anything about
23 this. We can continue.
24 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you very much.
25 Q. Now, in signing your final statement, you made an addition to
1 paragraph 33 referring to Muslim offensive operations on 30 May 1993.
2 Can you confirm, Mr. Maksimovic, something you've previously said, which
3 was that this attack on your headquarters was to draw attention to other
4 things while BiH forces could cut the road from Lukavica to Pale on
6 A. Well, yes. And it was cut off at the time. They cut off the
7 road at one point in time and then got it back, but the command was
9 Q. And can you also confirm that in response to this, SRK forces
10 launched a counter-attack and returned the BiH forces to their starting
12 A. You know, when it was cut off this was in part of Trebevic which
13 was a mountainous forested area. There was no counter-offensive. The
14 Muslims withdrew after we had returned to our starting positions. There
15 was nothing fierce there. They broke through. We drove them back, and
16 all of this took place in an area of about one square kilometre. Because
17 that road, the Lukavica-Pale road, was of vital importance for us.
18 Q. Let's go on to another document from around that same time,
19 65 ter 07660. It's dated 28 May 1993, and it's from the VRS sector for
20 morale, religious and legal affairs. And it's a report, and I'm quite
21 happy if we could just flip through a couple of pages for Mr. Maksimovic
22 to see it refers on page 1 to Muslim propaganda. And then if we could go
23 over to the next page, please. You'll see in your language at the bottom
24 of the page it refers to Croatian propaganda, and that would be in the
25 subsequent page in English.
1 And is this, in your function as morale and information officer,
2 the sort of document you received from your superiors in the morale and
3 legal affairs sector?
4 A. This is the first time I have seen this document. It's quite
5 possible that high military organs sent this document to us for our
6 information, so that we could be aware of the fact that certain things
7 were being done in the area of propaganda against us.
8 Q. And --
9 A. I don't remember ever having had this document in my hands.
10 Q. But let's go back, then, to page 1 so you can have a look at it,
11 and perhaps I can ask you this: Even though you might not have had the
12 document in your hands, is this similar to the information you received
13 from your superiors during the context of your work in the morale and
14 legal affairs sector?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to ask this again. Which
16 staff is concerned? We can only see that it's the morale sector, but
17 which level are we dealing with? The witness -- I'd just like to see
18 what period is concerned.
19 JUDGE KWON: Can we show the last page to the witness?
20 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, of course.
21 JUDGE KWON: Let's see to what unit it was sent.
22 MS. EDGERTON: And this was sent to the VRS Main Staff, the
23 1st and 2nd Krajina Corps, the East Bosnia Corps, the
24 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, the Drina Corps, and so on.
25 JUDGE KWON: Does this bear the date at all, Ms. Edgerton?
1 MS. EDGERTON: Top left-hand corner of the first page,
2 Your Honours.
3 JUDGE KWON: Oh, yes. It's 28th of May, 1993. Yes. Let's
4 continue, Ms. Edgerton.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But we still can't see which staff
6 is concerned, which level is concerned.
7 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, it's for the witness to answer whether
8 he knows or not. We are not feeding the answer to the witness. Let's
10 MS. EDGERTON:
11 Q. So my question about this was before we begin this --
12 A. Sorry, at the top it says the media for the SR Yugoslavia, the
13 sector for morale and religious issues.
14 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is mumbling.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps such reports were sent
16 because all the corps had to be aware of what was going on through the
17 territory of Republika Srpska. So that is quite customary.
18 MS. EDGERTON:
19 Q. Mr. Maksimovic, can I just interrupt you again. Perhaps we --
20 I'd like to point out what might be a mistake in the interpretation.
21 You've just said at the top of this document it says "Media for the SR
22 Yugoslavia." That's not correct, is it? I just want to check that the
23 interpreters trying to keep up with you at speed have been able to hear
24 this properly.
25 A. There's a certain technology, a certain way in which reports are
1 written, you know, when you have two states that are at war with each
2 other, and then you report to your side and what the enemy is doing, and
3 they inform their people about what their enemy is doing. So these
4 reports are quite customary, the reports that speak about propaganda.
5 Q. My question before we began this, and I note you haven't
6 addressed the correction in the interpretation, my question when we first
7 began this is -- was: Is this information consistent with the
8 information you would have received in your function as morale and legal
9 affairs officer? It reports on Muslim propaganda, and it lists wartime
10 events throughout the theatre.
11 MS. EDGERTON: If we could go over to the second page in English,
13 Q. From Gorazde, from Rudo, from Konjic, and at the bottom of page 2
14 in English, from Sarajevo. Is this similar to information you received
15 from your superiors, yes or no?
16 A. I don't remember such a report. I'm not familiar with this. I
17 received things from the assistant commander for morale and perhaps from
18 Galic, but nothing like this.
19 Q. So if we can just look at the bottom of page 2 in English, and
20 it's on the successive page in B/C/S, this reports on 28 May 1993 that:
21 "In the course of the day Sarajevo has once again been a target
22 of heavy artillery shelling by the aggressor. The situation is
23 especially difficult in Novi Grad, city centre and Novo Sarajevo. A
24 woman was killed in Kovaci while two children were severely wounded.
25 Sirokaca, Gadzin Han and Dobrinja were shelled occasionally. Snipers are
1 targeting crossroads of Novo Sarajevo. The clashes which commenced
2 yesterday on Trebevic are still ongoing."
3 Is this what you considered to be propaganda, Mr. Maksimovic?
4 A. This is pure propaganda, pure propaganda, and lies.
5 Q. So you didn't do anything about it, did you?
6 A. No. What I have read out here, it's just lies. Truth is the
7 first casualty in war.
8 Q. So you didn't do anything about it, did you?
9 A. There was nothing for me to do. I wasn't aware of the
10 possibility of operating in this way and that we were such savages to act
11 in this way. There was nothing for me to do. I wasn't competent. I
12 didn't receive this. But this is unadulterated propaganda. This has
13 nothing to do with anything.
14 MS. EDGERTON: All right. Can we go over to page 3 of this
15 document, please, in English. Your indulgence for a moment, please.
16 Q. Now, the last paragraph of page 3, above the heading "Croatian
17 propaganda," says:
18 "The General Assembly will discuss today the issues of election
19 of the judges and finances for the war crimes Tribunal which was
20 established several days ago."
21 Is that propaganda?
22 A. Yes. That is or correct information. This can't be linked with
23 what was previously stated in the text. What is correct and what
24 everyone can be aware of is correct, so that's the conclusion I draw. No
25 one can play propaganda issues in relation to something like a
1 General Assembly. So this is all correct, but the other things aren't
2 correct. The movement of tanks and so on and so forth, I don't know
3 where all these tanks came from. I'm not aware of this text that has to
4 do with Muslim propaganda but as for the General Assembly, well, this is
5 a well-known thing. That is what the situation was.
6 Q. What differentiates between the two? Why do you call the one
7 lies and the other one not?
8 A. Well, this is international information from international
9 institutions. It cannot be manipulated. But everything else in the text
10 above is propaganda, the purpose of which is to boost one's morale and to
11 undermine enemy morale, and so on and so forth.
12 Q. Well, just for one last item, Mr. Maksimovic, I'd actually like
13 to play a video-clip when you talk about international information. It's
14 a report from BBC war correspondent Jeremy Bowen, dated 30 May 1993, and
15 I hope my colleagues in the booth have received transcripts so that they
16 can provide you with interpretation. And this report, Mr. Maksimovic, is
17 on -- relating to events in Sarajevo.
18 And I forgot to provide the 65 ter number for the record. It's
19 65 ter number 40349P.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 "The fighting started at dawn. Sarajevo was woken by heavy
22 artillery, tank fire, mortars, and machine-guns. Is it has gone on all
24 "Serb guns have been pounding the centre of the city. The
25 people were warned by local radio to keep off the streets. That has
1 reduced the number of civilian casualties. But everyone is a target in
2 this war and Sarajevo's main hospitals are full.
3 "It is because the Serbs are on the counter-attack. Bosnian
4 government forces have since Friday been advancing up the mountain called
5 Trebevic which dominates Sarajevo. They want to drive a wedge between
6 two major concentrations of Bosnian Serb soldiers. If they succeed, it
7 will be a major victory. But the government's 10th Mountain Brigade,
8 which is doing most of the fighting, has been sending dozens of wounded
9 men down the mountain for treatment.
10 "The fighting is still going on. Civilians in the city expect
11 more shells. This family, which miraculous escaped without injury when a
12 tank entered their flat this morning, said they always expect the Serbs
13 to make them suffer when the Bosnian Army is on the offensive."
14 MS. EDGERTON:
15 Q. Have you heard the interpretation, Mr. Maksimovic?
16 A. I heard the interpretation, but I can't comment on this because I
17 always have doubts about these reporters, because on the whole they were
18 in Sarajevo. You know, they reported from Sarajevo. So if you'd like to
19 know more about it, George Miller [as interpreted] wrote an
20 "Unholy Terror," and he showed what the propaganda was from Sarajevo that
21 was sent throughout the world, with all due respect for the victims, but
22 I can't comment on this from the BBC.
23 Q. Well, this is information from an international war
24 correspondent, Mr. Maksimovic, and you've just said international
25 information from international institutions can't be manipulated. How is
1 this different?
2 A. No, no. A war correspondent, well, anyone can be a war
3 correspondent if an agency sends him in. He has nothing to do with
4 institutions, so I'd like to make that restriction. The UN is one thing
5 and the war report is another thing -- if he's in Sarajevo or anywhere
6 else. I doubt the veracity of such reports and George Schindler in his
7 book wrote about propaganda in 2007 and showed the amount of propaganda
8 that was concerned. Although I am sorry for all the victims, if there
9 were any victims, I do have doubts about such reports. War correspondent
10 isn't an authority of any kind.
11 Q. And your evidence in closing based on what you've just said is
12 that you're actually disputing whether or not there were any victims to
13 the shelling and sniping of civilians in Bosnian-held Sarajevo.
14 A. I'm not disputing that, but I have certain doubts when I tell you
15 that on the 4th of July in Vogosca we had eight men killed, nine wounded,
16 nine seriously wounded and 23 men wounded, well, no one found out about
17 this in the world. So I have certain doubts about the veracity. There
18 were victims, yes, collateral damage and so on and so forth, but I can't
19 believe that everything this person says is correct. That there was
20 fighting on both sides.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 A. And, madam, there's something else I would like to add if I may.
23 You know, the positions of Serbs in Sarajevo and of the inhabitants in
24 Sarajevo was the same. Everyone was anxious. Every position in the
25 Sarajevo field held by the Serbs was under Muslim fire. I can tell you
1 exactly where certain shells fell and what happened. No one reported on
2 this. The reports that were made discriminated against us.
3 MS. EDGERTON: I have nothing further, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I?
6 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, Mr. Maksimovic.
7 Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Excellency, two or three
10 JUDGE KWON: Please proceed.
11 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
12 Q. Thank you. Colonel, we're going to start with the latest things
13 that you were asked about just now. On the 30th of May -- was there any
14 fighting on the 30th of May 1993?
15 A. This was a day out of hell for us, because on that 30th of May
16 there was a great deal of uncertainty as to whether we'd survive. This
17 was a question of life and death. If the Muslim forces were to penetrate
18 Sarajevsko Polje where there was 80 thousand to 100 thousand inhabitants
19 that would have been a slaughterhouse. There weren't any reporters
20 there. They were reporting from Sarajevo. It was a very difficult day.
21 Q. Thank you. Can we please 1D1541 in e-court to see what the
22 command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps was reporting about that day to
23 the Main Staff. 1D1541.
24 Can you recognise this report in terms of the form that you can
25 see and the way things are done?
1 A. Yes. Yes. This is the customary form of reports.
2 Q. Can you look at paragraph 1, and can you read it out loud,
4 A. Yes.
5 "During the day, the enemy systematically violated the cease-fire
6 by firing from all weapons and artillery pieces at our defence
8 Q. Thank you. Does that mean that there was a cease-fire that was
9 in force?
10 A. Yes. There was a cease-fire. And I remember now, I don't
11 remember exactly which date it was, but I remember that Galic called us
12 in. It was during the month of May. And he told us to observe the
13 cease-fire as much as possible in order to strengthen the credibility of
14 our corps, and also he said that he had received orders for you that we
15 should not respond with gunfire, and then people were commenting on this
16 saying the president won't even let us defend ourselves. This really was
17 taken care of. We really made an effort not to have anything happen to
19 Q. Thank you. Can you read this third part in the area, the third
20 bullet point.
21 A. Which part?
22 Q. Can you read the first sentence.
23 A. "In the area of the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade sector of
24 responsibility the enemy also mounted a strong infantry attack using
25 artillery on defence positions in the Zlatiste area. That was that. The
1 lines have not been removed. The attack was repulsed. During combat
2 activities two of our tanks sustained minor damage and two soldiers were
3 lightly wounded."
4 Q. Tell us, please. Where was this Muslim artillery? From where
5 were they firing at Zlatiste?
6 A. As far as the area was concerned, they could only move along the
7 streets of Sarajevo and they would have sought shelter behind buildings
8 and they would have fired from there.
9 Q. Thank you. Can you read the other one?
10 A. Positions.
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. "During the day over 200 projectiles of all calibres landed on
13 positions of the Mixed Anti-tank Artillery Regiment with no
15 Q. I have to tell you to read this out very carefully.
16 A. "A total of 19, 82-millimetre mortar shells felt on the defence
17 sector Jagomir 8, Brdo 8, and Radava 3."
18 Q. You misread the previous one. Does it say 200 or does it say 20?
19 A. It says 200.
20 Q. Can we have the next page, please. The next page, please.
21 The fifth bullet point from the top, the Ilidza Brigade.
22 A. Ilijas.
23 Q. No. The Ilidza Brigade. Do you see it there?
24 A. "The enemy used provocative infantry and sniper fire in the
25 Ilidza Brigade sector responsibility. The broader Ilidza area was
1 shelled with 2 times 155-millimetre howitzer shells, Doglodi sector. Two
2 20 times to 82-millimetre mortar shells and six times 120-millimetre
3 shells on the Ilidza neighbourhood. There were no injured persons."
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The witness continued
5 speaking. We didn't get any of that.
6 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic -- just a second. Mr. Maksimovic --
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please go ahead.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes. You are speaking so fast the interpreters
9 didn't understand your last part of -- the last part of your previous
11 THE WITNESS: I am sorry. I am sorry.
12 JUDGE KWON: After you read out the text, what did you say?
13 Could you repeat that answer?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to say that with all these
15 mortar shells that were falling in our area, nevertheless there weren't
16 any injured persons. I'm trying to say that our reports were 90 or
17 95 per cent truthful. If somebody wanted to engage in propaganda, since
18 so many mortar shells fell, somebody could have said there were 20 or 30
19 casualties. This is a very good report. This is an accurate report.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Could you just read the conclusion, please.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could we have the next
25 page in English, 8, conclusion.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know what the atmosphere was like
2 in the corps, and we managed to stabilise our line, and we managed to
3 repulse them. They created a mini bridgehead there, if you can put it
4 that way.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. How do you interpret this, what I said here, were compelled to or
7 obliged to?
8 A. Well, they had to respond to enemy attacks.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1541 receives number D2671,
13 Your Honours.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Today you said that people were upset because the president of
16 the republic called for restraint and was thereby undermining necessary
17 defence. The Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, did it restrain whenever possible?
18 Did they refrain from responding with their own gunfire?
19 A. Yes, absolutely. It was only when it was ultimately necessary
20 that we responded. Michael Rose after all said that cease-fires were
21 mostly violated by Muslims and their provocation. I can confirm this to
22 you, Mr. President. General Galic sent me to the 1st Romanija Brigade
23 near Lizdek and some delegation was coming to Sarajevo at the time, and I
24 was supposed to caution him telling him that he should strictly observe
25 the cease-fire. As I was sitting with the late Lizdek, he is deceased
1 now, we received reports from the Kresca [phoen] Company. Djordje Lukic
2 was very seriously wounded in the jaw, very serious wounds from a
3 machine-gun, 12.7 millimetres, and then the same day an infantry attack
4 was launched all with the aim of making us respond so that they could say
5 once again that Serbs were attacking Sarajevo. We were provoked, but we
6 did not have the capacity or strength to attack Sarajevo and take it.
7 You could only dream of that. Three to one was the principle that they
8 observed. Their soldiers rested for three days and then were held
9 positions on one day, whereas our people were on the front line all the
11 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not catch the numbers
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe 1.000 people could have been,
14 well, in the modern sense of the word, ready to engage in modern warfare.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 12.000 is not recorded in the
16 transcript. Can you repeat that?
17 A. The corps had 22.000 men on paper, but out of that, only 12.000
18 were operational, as it were. They could be used in this defence war.
19 The rest were involved in logistics and other work that was used by the
21 Q. Thank you. These 12.000, were they all oriented towards the
22 city, and how long was the front line for the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps on
23 the internal ring?
24 A. Twelve thousand is the entire Sarajevo-Romanija Corps on the
25 positions within Sarajevo and in the external ring towards Igman,
1 Pazarici, Kiseljak, Visoko, Breza, Gorazde, and so on. So practically we
2 were sandwiched in there, and our only way out was to Pale.
3 Q. Thank you. 1D1540. Could we have that, please. This is the day
4 that precedes the day that we've been looking at so far. You mentioned
5 restraint and criticism of the president because he was asking for
6 restraint. Let us take a look at this now. Is this the 29th of May?
7 Again the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps is sending a report, a regular report,
8 to the Main Staff.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you. Can we have page 2 now. It's page 2 in English as
11 well. It's paragraph 2. Two and 8. No page 2?
12 Could you please read out paragraph 2.
13 A. "Members of the SRK are observing the cease-fire as much as they
14 can. Because of heavy firing on the line of responsibility, the 1st Rpbr
15 has increased reconnaissance and observation. All other units have also
16 received a supplementary order to increase the level of observation and
18 So this was the usual thing that should be done to prevent a
19 surprise. We could not allow ourselves to be surprised. We could not
20 allow a breakthrough.
21 Q. What does this mean when it says as much as they could?
22 A. People were strained. They could not rest. They could not
23 sleep, and they could not live a normal life generally speaking.
24 Q. Paragraph 8, please, now?
25 JUDGE KWON: What's the point of reading out the document? We
1 can read it. You ask questions, Mr. Karadzic.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Colonel, sir, this conclusion in paragraph 8, does it correspond
5 to your knowledge about restraint on the part of the
6 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and cease-fire violations by the 1st Corps of the
7 BH Army?
8 A. I think that the report that is being sent to you has to be
9 truthful and authentic, and it is true that all the units of the corps
10 were following the order on cease-fire, but unfortunately the enemy was
11 violating it all the time.
12 You know, where the corps command was at Dobrinja there was
13 gunfire coming in practically every day. We had no interest in violating
14 the cease-fire. That did not suit us at all.
15 Q. Thank you. These reports to the Main Staff, are they strictly
16 confidential? Can we have the first page.
17 A. Let's see. Yes. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D1540 receives number D2672,
22 Your Honours.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. You were asked today about your paragraph 66 in relation to
1 barracks and weapons.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you stand by the essence of paragraph 66 in relation to
4 barracks and weapons?
5 A. I stand by that, because it was already in Belgrade that I found
6 out from the officers who returned from these barracks that that is what
7 happened there. I think that the last ones went to Belgrade on the
8 6th of June. When I came to Belgrade, since we all lived in this
9 collective accommodation facility, they told me about this.
10 Q. 1D59, could we have now, please. Could you please tell us, this
11 is a military post and the date is the 11th of May, and the
12 Army of Republika Srpska didn't exist at the time yet.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What about these wounded persons? Who were these wounded
15 persons? What does this mean, they took charge of the following wounded
17 A. These are the casualties from the 3rd of May. I know Taso Enes.
18 These were the -- these were the victims of Dobrovoljacka Street. I know
19 that. These were the wounded that we exchanged, and they were
20 transferred to recuperate. They're from Dobrovoljacka, the 2nd and
21 3rd of May.
22 Q. Thank you. Please take a look at paragraph 2, not to read out
23 all of it. Does paragraph 2 refer to -- I mean, is it consistent with
24 what you said in paragraph 66 of your statement?
25 A. I don't know about the weapons of the TO, and I don't know about
1 these conditions. I don't know who negotiated. I was not involved in
2 that. But I can tell you that on the 14th of May sitting alone in a
3 communications centre I listened to this conversation. Muslims allegedly
4 asked for 15.000 rifles in order to liberate those recruits and others
5 from the barracks. I'm not familiar with this document.
6 Q. Do you know that some general from Belgrade came with weapons?
7 Some weapons were turned over to them, including the weapons that
8 happened to be in the barracks.
9 JUDGE KWON: Reformulate your question.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Did anyone from the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia come
12 bringing weapons and was the weaponry --
13 JUDGE KWON: Reformulate it. You can ask him who brought the
14 weapons at all.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Who brought weapons from Belgrade for the Muslim side?
17 A. I really don't know that. I hear of this for the first time. I
18 didn't know anything when I arrived there. I didn't know anyone. I'm
19 not familiar with who brought the weapons.
20 Q. Are these the same barracks that you mentioned in paragraph 66?
21 A. Yes, those are the barracks in Sarajevo. I only knew about
22 Marsal Tito. I learned about the others when I arrived. Viktor Bubanj,
23 Gavrilo Princip, I don't know what barracks is that. I didn't mention
25 Q. Thank you.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this document admitted.
2 JUDGE KWON: I'm not sure whether we need to admit this.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Prosecution disputes that
4 weapons were left behind in the barracks and that Muslims had weapons
5 from that source as this witness confirmed, and this document
6 independently corroborates the same thing.
7 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton.
8 MS. EDGERTON: That's, with respect, a misstatement of the
9 questions and answers on this topic.
10 JUDGE KWON: What about the admissibility?
11 MS. EDGERTON: I find the document -- actually, if we could see
12 the last page of the document, and I could make an observation about
14 Ah. I find the document is authentic, Your Honours, just with
15 the caveat that the witness did not agree that these were all the
16 barracks, that the barracks mentioned in paragraph 2 were all the
17 barracks mentioned in paragraph 66.
18 JUDGE KWON: Further, he cannot comment on this, being not
19 familiar with this.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE KWON: We'll not receive this through this witness,
22 Mr. Karadzic.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. I wanted to ask you, Colonel, on page 42, you were asked about
1 the decisions concerning the stopping of convoys, and you confirmed these
2 decisions were made at a higher level. How would decisions be made in
3 case there was fighting along the lines, along the routes of the convoys?
4 Were commanders duty-bound to stop convoys?
5 A. Certainly if there was combat convoys would have to be stopped.
6 A convoy could not be let through if it was a force majeure.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we -- could we see
8 65 ter 24073.
9 MS. EDGERTON: It's now P6054.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, that's not the one. Or it
11 could be possibly. Could we see the page that we've looked at before. I
12 believe it was page 2 or 3. Page 3, I think, in Serbian and in English.
13 Yes. Could we enlarge it a bit.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Colonel, may I ask you, you don't have to read aloud, but begin
16 with "The accused Maksimovic," and read to the end of the paragraph to
17 yourself, and tell me what is it that you rose above as referred to here?
18 A. Which paragraph?
19 Q. Towards the bottom of that paragraph. The sentence begins with
20 "They accused Maksimovic."
21 JUDGE KWON: Did you say "The accused Maksimovic"?
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. No. [In English] "They
23 accused." "They accused."
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. That was the usual
25 accusation. I did not agree so lightly to do what they wanted, and then
1 they said I was a traitor, but I let it pass because I didn't want to
2 sink to the level of those individuals. It was not said to my face, but
3 it was said about me behind my back. Nobody told me so to my face but I
4 learned later about these accusations. I had a completely different
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. What accusations were usually levelled at military officers by
8 these right-wing persons?
9 A. They were very negative.
10 Q. But on what grounds? What did they accuse them off from the
11 ideological point of view?
12 A. That we are lesser Serbs, that we do not support the national
13 cause because we wanted to act like gentlemen, to abide by conventions.
14 That's the way we were brought up. We were not so ruthless. But I'm not
15 interested in that. They said that we were not nationally aware, not
16 enough at least.
17 Q. This issue of volunteers, was it regulated by law?
18 A. Volunteers? Those volunteers there?
19 Q. Yes. The recruitment of volunteers. Is a volunteer different
20 from a soldier the moment he joins in under the same command?
21 A. I don't know about generally, but when they joined us over there,
22 they had to be under our command, and that is why 25 days later when we
23 realised they were unreliable, they were disarmed and sent back. It was
24 already the middle of 1992. As of May or June, a very restrictive
25 approach was taken to volunteers.
1 Q. Were they deployed in a populated area?
2 A. No, I don't know that they were. To the best of my knowledge,
3 those 25 who were there, I never met any one of them again. They were
4 not there until 1993. There were no paramilitaries. If they ever
5 arrived, they would be integrated into regular units.
6 Q. This Mr. Ostojic or his unit, did they perpetrate any crime that
7 we know of?
8 A. I don't know. In those 25 days, they could not have done
9 anything in Vogosca. I don't know about before, and they never came back
10 later. I don't know. This Ostojic impressed me as a reasonable person.
11 He was radical in ideological terms, but he didn't appear to me as a
12 brigand. He was quite reasonable when he talked to me later. We
13 discussed how to organise their disarming.
14 Q. The 10th Mountain Brigade of the 1st Corps is mentioned here. Do
15 you know by any chance who was the celebrated commander of that brigade?
16 A. Yes. That's this Caco person.
17 JUDGE KWON: Let's move on.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was Musan Topalovic, also
19 known as Caco, from what I heard. He held those positions close to
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. It was written in the document, and there were BBC reports of
23 some kind.
24 A. He was very ruthless, this commander.
25 JUDGE KWON: If you do not wish to move on -- yes, I'd like to
1 hear, Ms. Edgerton.
2 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. I have absolutely no idea what
3 document the 10th Mountain Brigade was mentioned in, but in any case,
4 that was far and away outside of the cross-examination.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It was heard on the video, but I
6 strike that.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Last question. Colonel, were volunteers one thing and
9 paramilitaries another thing? Is it the same thing or was there a
11 A. There is a distinction. Volunteers have to be under command,
12 whereas paramilitaries were for a while outside of anyone's control, but
13 they were quickly neutralised. It was mostly in the early days of the
14 war that the paramilitaries were present. They were not invited by
15 anyone, and they were not answerable to anyone. Volunteers are something
16 else entirely, and they were under military command. That's what I know.
17 I never dealt with paramilitary units.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Colonel. I have no
19 further questions.
20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Mr. Maksimovic, that concludes your
21 evidence. Thank you for your coming to The Hague to give it. Now you
22 are free to go.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
24 JUDGE KWON: We'll rise all together. We'll have a break for 45
25 minutes and resume at 5 past 2.00.
1 [The witness withdrew]
2 --- Recess taken at 1.19 p.m.
3 --- On resuming at 2.06 p.m.
4 [The witness entered court]
5 JUDGE KWON: Could the witness make the solemn declaration.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
7 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
8 WITNESS: ZDRAVKO SALIPUR
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Salipur. Please be seated and make
11 yourself comfortable.
12 Mr. Salipur, before you start giving your evidence, I would like
13 to draw your attention to a particular Rule here at the Tribunal. Under
14 this Rule, Rule 90(E), you may object to answering a question from the
15 accused, the Prosecution, or the Judges if you believe that your answer
16 will incriminate you. When I say "incriminate," I mean something you say
17 may amount to an admission of your guilt or could provide evidence that
18 you have committed an offence. However, even if you think your answer
19 will incriminate you and you do not wish to answer the question, the
20 Tribunal still may compel you to answer the question, but in such a case,
21 the Tribunal will make sure that your testimony compelled in such a way
22 shall not be used as evidence against -- in other case against you for
23 any offence other than false testimony.
24 Do you understand what I have told you, sir?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood completely.
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
2 Mr. Karadzic.
3 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
4 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Salipur.
5 A. Good afternoon, Mr. President.
6 Q. Did you give a statement to the Defence team?
7 A. Yes. If I may say, I need to make a correction, and I hoped to
8 do it here verbally.
9 Q. We will come to that, but please make a pause between questions
10 and answers.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see 1D6724 in e-court,
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Is this the statement on the screen?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Is there anything in it you would like to correct? You just
17 mentioned something.
18 A. Apart from some trivial errors of typographic nature, I have no
19 particular corrections to make except for one paragraph that is
20 completely missing from the statement, and I believe it is important to
21 the meaning of my entire statement and evidence.
22 Q. And it regards what?
23 A. My evidence is about the organising of civilian government in the
24 pre-war municipality of Novo Sarajevo and the wartime municipality of
25 Serbian Novo Sarajevo. At one point, I can't remember the date, all of a
1 sudden one evening the general secretary of the UN, Kofi Annan came to
2 the Serbian Novo Sarajevo. We received him for informal talks, and I
3 believe this is rather an important matter, because the Secretary-General
4 visited an area where proper authorities had been established according
5 to the constitution and the law, and he had proper representatives to
6 speak to.
7 Q. Was this reported by the media?
8 A. It must have been, because he's a personality of global
9 importance, and I found out later how he came to visit. He had visited
10 Sarajevo before, and he asked, Where are the Serbs? And the answer he
11 got was that they are only 100 metres away. Then he told his entourage
12 and his hosts in Sarajevo that he would like to visit, if that's
13 possible, and that's how he came. That must have been recorded in all
14 sorts of documents in Sarajevo and in the UN and everywhere.
15 Q. Can you tell us anything about his comments that he made then,
16 something he said during your encounter, something you believe to be
18 A. We talked for about an hour, perhaps. We explained to him
19 briefly the structure of the population before the war in the
20 Novo Sarajevo municipality, how the authorities were established and how
21 it functioned beginning with 1989 when the multi-party system was
22 introduced, how the war broke out, that we were a mono-ethnic
23 municipality with large parts of the municipality completely dominated by
24 the Serbian population, and we told him that the separation line
25 established already in the war was firmly there. Nobody attacked anyone
1 else. They just defended their positions. And we answered his
2 questions. He left very satisfied, and on one occasion after the war
3 when Mr. Sarovic became President of Republika Srpska, he told us he had
4 attended one session of the General Assembly and had met Mr. Kofi Annan
5 who recognised him and remembered that visit to our municipality at
7 Q. Thank you, Mr. Salipur. Now that is on record. And apart from
8 the typos, does the rest of the statement reflect correctly what you
10 A. It does, and I maintain that all of it is true. The statement
11 could have been longer and more detailed, but I don't think it was
12 necessary to add more. I believe it reflects the situation in our
13 municipality both before and during the war.
14 Q. Thank you. Do you have before you that statement on paper?
15 A. I do.
16 Q. For your information, it is the decision of the Trial Chamber
17 concerning the topics not relevant to the indictment that some parts of
18 the statement are redacted. Do you have your statement in the original,
19 the one you signed?
20 A. I have it before me and on the screen I see only page 1.
21 Q. If I were to ask you the same questions today, would your answers
22 be essentially the same?
23 A. You can ask them all over again. The answers will be the same,
24 although some things were as far back as 20 years ago. As long as I
25 live, I will confirm the same things, as long as my memory serves me.
1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Salipur.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, may I tender
3 this statement with some paragraphs redacted as ordered, and may I ask
4 for flexibility regarding three associated exhibits that we did not have
5 when we were making up our 65 ter list.
6 JUDGE KWON: Any objection, Mr. Gaynor.
7 MR. GAYNOR: Well, Mr. President, first of all, I'm somewhat
8 concerned. The witness said that apart from trivial errors of a
9 typographic nature he adopted the statement, and then Dr. Karadzic asked
10 him to confirm that the statement was his evidence apart from the typos.
11 My concern is that we don't exactly know what the typos are. Perhaps
12 either the accused could take the witness through those typos now or the
13 witness could be asked to review the statement overnight just so the
14 Trial Chamber is clear as to what exactly the trivial errors of a
15 typographic nature in fact are.
16 Apart from that, in respect of the associated exhibits which are
17 listed on the notification which we've received, we have no objection to
18 the admission of the associated exhibits.
19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I find Mr. Gaynor's comment fair
20 enough, so I would like you to go through those typos, after reading out
21 the summary, with the witness, if any.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, your Excellencies. I'll
23 ask the witness --
24 JUDGE KWON: Before doing that, we'll admit the 92 ter statement
25 as well as three associated exhibits.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D6724 receives number D2673. Document
2 1442 receives number D2674. Document 1496 receives number D2675. And
3 document 20621 receives number D2676, Your Honours.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will have one more
5 document to present, but after reading the summary. I would now read in
6 English the summary of the statement of Mr. Zdravko Salipur.
7 [In English] Zdravko Salipur was born on 19th of December, 1948,
8 in Sarajevo. He is highly skilled lathe operator by profession. During
9 his career, he was -- he has worked for several different companies such
10 as Geoinzenjering, Energoinvest, UPI and others. Zdravko Salipur was a
11 member of the Municipal Board of the SDS in Novo Sarajevo. At the
12 beginning of the war, he worked for the Novo Sarajevo municipality as
13 head of the technical service.
14 Zdravko Salipur was aware that the Muslims and Croats in BH had
15 established their own political parties in the first half of the 1990s
16 and that the Serbs establish their own party some time later.
17 Zdravko Salipur was appointed as a member of the Steering Committee and a
18 member of the Municipal Board of the SDS, and after its establishment the
19 SDS began to develop local boards in the local communes.
20 The coalition created in the BH Assembly between all the parties
21 was working well until there was a rift caused by the vote on the
22 decisions on the independence of BH as the Serbs have been -- had been
23 out-voted by the other two constituent peoples. Therefore, the Assembly
24 of the Serbian people in BH was constituted on 24th of October, 1991, and
25 local government organs were created. However, after the outbreak of the
1 war and the formation of the Serbian Republic of BH, a decision was made
2 to freeze the work of the Serbian Democratic Party for one year due to
3 the situation and to organise the defence of the Serbian people.
4 Zdravko Salipur had information about the military organisation
5 and arming of the Muslims and Croats in the area of Novo Sarajevo before
6 the war. He knew that Muslims were arming themselves through members of
7 the police, the MUP, and the SDA. Immediately before the war,
8 Mr. Salipur would see them wearing uniforms and carrying weapons.
9 Mr. Salipur also was aware that Mr. Enver Zornic, known as a serious
10 extremist and criminal, was in charge of the MOS,
11 Muslim Youth Association. Two months before the outbreak of the war, the
12 paramilitary units of the Green Berets and the Patriotic League
13 controlled the TV tower on Hum and dug trenches and made bunkers around
14 the buildings. Serbs were not allowed to enter this area.
15 When the Crisis Staff for the Serbian people was established, it
16 made assessment of the political and security situation. Dr. Karadzic at
17 the meetings before the war -- before the fighting broke out insisted
18 that there would be no war. During the fighting, the Crisis Staff took
19 over all the prerogatives and functions of the Municipal Assemblies when
20 those organisations were unable to meet. These organisations were not a
21 vehicle for the permanent removal of the Muslims and Croats from the area
22 of BH. Commissioners appointed by the government had the task of trying
23 to establish the rule of law in Serbian municipalities.
24 Zdravko Salipur considers there to be justifiable reason for
25 establishing the Serbian Municipal Assemblies because the Muslims and
1 Croats were preparing for war against the Serbs. The Serbs felt that
2 they had to organise themselves to not allow a repeat of history. He was
3 aware that the Muslims and Croats also had Crisis Staffs and paramilitary
4 units such as the MOS, the Green Berets, and the Patriotic League. He
5 was aware that before or during the war paramilitary existed and operated
6 in Novo Sarajevo. However, the authorities organised themselves with
7 considerable help to get the situation under control. It concerns the
8 Serb part of Novo Sarajevo.
9 The Serbian municipality of Novo Sarajevo was within the legal
10 framework, free and independent of the republican organs of
11 administration and it functioned on the basis of the principles of normal
12 and free communication.
13 Zdravko Salipur states that the War Presidencies were formed
14 because an imminent threat of war had been declared. These Presidencies
15 were operational bodies whose function it was to make decisions when the
16 Municipal Assembly was unable to meet. They were not a vehicle for the
17 persecution and destruction of the Muslim and Croatian people. The task
18 of the commissioners of the War Presidencies was to organise and
19 establish the normal work of the local community.
20 To Zdravko Salipur's knowledge, Novo Sarajevo had no prisons,
21 prisoners, or war camps or collection centres in its territory, nor were
22 there instructions or orders from organs of the Republika Srpska to
23 organise such.
24 As barricades had been erected around Sarajevo, Zdravko Salipur,
25 for safety reasons, stopped attending work. When the situation
1 deteriorated, the Serb population of Gornji Pofalici settlement organised
2 themselves in accordance with the principle of territorial defence and
3 they prepared for a possible attack. They organised night guards and
4 armed themselves with weapons they legally owned. The Muslims and Croats
5 in the area still lived and worked normally, moving freely.
6 At the outbreak of the war, many civilians left the area of their
7 own accord and a number of people who stayed assisted with the
8 distribution of humanitarian aid. Two public soup kitchens existed in
9 Grbavica under Serb control where meals were distributed free of charge
10 and everyone, regardless of ethnicity, received the same treatment. The
11 same principle applied to anyone entitled to a pension. The whole
12 population had complete freedom of movement. However, they were
13 undoubtedly under sniper fire from the Muslim forces, and many people of
14 all ethnicities were killed in this way. Towards the end of the war,
15 people were unable to -- were able to move across different parts of
16 Sarajevo, across the line -- lines with permission and approval by both
17 sides. [Microphone not activated]
18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Mr. Salipur, perhaps you came across some typos in the first
21 version. We haven't found any, but have you found any that you would
22 like to draw our attention to?
23 A. The last paragraph, paragraph 31. It says that the president of
24 the municipality of Novo Sarajevo who was killed was Ljubo Obradovic.
25 The mistake is in that the name was Budo Obradovic. That's the man. So
1 there was a typo, or the person who was listening to me did not
2 understand me correctly. Perhaps there are a few letters that are
3 mistaken. In one place it says Bosa was killed. The name should be
4 Rosa. So if you change one letter, the name is changed too.
5 In the paragraph that you read out in relation to Zornic Enver,
6 in my statement I said that I heard that he was an extremist and that in
7 the course of the war he was involved in various activities. I'm not
8 competent to call these activities crimes but I did hear certain things
9 about this. I can't confirm this fully, but the reason is that on one
10 occasion at the beginning of May I was stopped in the federal part of
11 Sarajevo which was under Muslim control. The police stopped me there.
12 When they had a look at my papers, another vehicle, passenger vehicle,
13 stopped by me. Zornic Enver was at the wheel. I knew him well. He was
14 wearing a camouflage uniform, and he had a green beret on his head, and
15 by his side in the passenger seat there was someone I didn't know also in
16 uniform. The policeman who checked my papers approached the car and
17 spoke to Enver Zornic, and after one minute the car left and the
18 policeman returned my papers and very courteously told me that I could
19 leave. My conclusion is that Zornic told him to let me go. At the time
20 if someone accused someone else of being an SDS member, he would be
21 killed immediately, if such a false accusation was made. So this person
22 treated me correctly. So in spite of the rumours that I have heard, I
23 don't want to say anything that I haven't heard about myself. I've just
24 said what the rumours were, and I read about this in the federal media
25 after the war. So that's all I have to say about that. I just wanted to
1 clarify this.
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Salipur. That is very fair on your part.
3 The paragraph in which the woman is referred to has been deleted,
4 but we should say that in the penultimate line of paragraph 31, the
5 person concerned is Budo Obradovic?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Are there any other corrections that you need to make?
8 A. Not really. In one of the paragraphs, number 7. These documents
9 are mentioned, the Prosecution documents. When the Serbian municipality
10 of Novo Sarajevo was formed on the 27th of March, at the end of that
11 paragraph it says that on that occasion Dr. Milivoje Prijic was selected
12 as the president of the municipality and Branko Radan as the president of
13 the Executive Committee. They weren't elected at that Assembly. It was
14 only an unofficial Assembly. They were elected after the war had broken
15 out, one gathering that was held in Lukavica. So that shouldn't have
16 been contained in that paragraph. It should have been listed elsewhere.
17 Q. Thank you, Mr. Salipur. Could we see 1D6727. At some point in
18 time did you have a child in the course of the war?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Where and when was he born?
21 A. My son, Ratomir, was given that name, Ratomir, because he lived
22 in wartime and we wanted him to grow up in peacetime. On the whole,
23 children who were born at the beginning of the war would often get such
24 names. You remember Dr. Ratomir Golijan, who was born in 1941, and for
25 the very same reasons he has the same name. My son was born on the
1 20th of April, 1992. All the media, all the propaganda that I heard
2 stated that at the beginning of the war we shelled the maternity ward and
3 destroyed it. I provided you with the original letter of discharge from
4 the maternity ward which shows that -- which shows when my son was born.
5 He is now 21 years old, and he's studying at the university of
7 Q. In line 15, after the 20th of April, 1992, it should say he was
8 born in the maternity ward. Could you tell us where the maternity ward
9 is where he was born, and where is this maternity ward which we
10 apparently destroyed?
11 A. This is the town maternity ward at Jezero. It's called
12 Zehira Muhidovic [phoen], something like that. You can find the name in
13 the statement, but I can't find it now.
14 Q. So it's at Betanija; is that right?
15 A. Yes. Yes, it's the lake, in fact. There's a children's hospital
16 and a maternity ward.
17 Q. Did we destroy that maternity ward?
18 A. No, it wasn't destroyed. Since it was between the lines, later
19 the UNPROFOR was there throughout the war, or IFOR. The name changed.
20 But they were there at the beginning of the war.
21 Q. Thank you. Is this a discharge letter for your son?
22 A. Yes. It's original.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, could I suggest
24 that this document be marked for identification. We have the date of
25 birth, the time, everything.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My wife worked in this maternity
2 ward for 14 years before the war broke out, and all the professors from
3 the clinic and everyone else knew her very well.
4 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Gaynor.
5 MR. GAYNOR: No objection, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we will receive it, but we will put it under --
7 we'll mark it for identification pending English translation.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D6727 receives number D2677,
9 Your Honours, MFI'd.
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Just one other thing I'd like to clarify. Given the propaganda
13 that was spread, on the 20th of April, according to the propaganda that
14 was spread, was the maternity ward already destroyed? When your son was
15 born did the media say that it had already been destroyed?
16 A. Yes. From the beginning of the war there was electronic media.
17 You know there was no printed press but the electronic media stated that
18 it was constantly under artillery fire and that wasn't true. As proof I
19 can say that I took my wife to the maternity ward. I left her there and
20 took her out on the third day. All the staff knew me there because she
21 worked there.
22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Salipur.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, at this point in
24 time I have no further questions, but I'm looking at the time. I don't
25 know whether we have time for the next witness. Perhaps it would be
1 better to continue tomorrow.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes. As you have noted, Mr. Salipur -- if my
3 pronunciation is not proper, please accept my apologies. Mr. Salipur,
4 your evidence in chief was admitted in writing in most part in lieu of
5 your oral testimony. You'll be now cross-examined by the representative
6 of the Office of the Prosecutor, but given the time, we'll adjourn for
7 today and continue tomorrow morning. And I would like to advise you not
8 to discuss with anybody else about your testimony.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have understood that. Thank you.
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. You may be excused.
11 [The witness stands down]
12 JUDGE KWON: Could the Chamber move into private session briefly.
13 [Private session]
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE KWON: Unless there's any other matter to deal with, the
24 hearing is now adjourned.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.41 p.m.,
1 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 18th day
2 of December, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.