Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 32273

 1                           Monday, 21 January 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 6             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. President.  Good morning.

 8             Mr. President, there was filed this morning an addendum to the

 9     expedited -- actually, I should go into private session before I discuss

10     this first issue, if we can.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Could the Chamber move into private session.

12                           [Private session]

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11  Pages 32274-32275 redacted.  Private session.















Page 32276

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15                           [Open session]

16             JUDGE KWON:  I'll repeat.  Judge Lattanzi is indisposed today and

17     we'll be sitting for the first session pursuant to Rule 15 bis.

18             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

19             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20             I just wanted to briefly raise the latest expression of the

21     ongoing and frankly massive disclosure violation by the -- violations by

22     the Defence related to the provision of information under the Rules and

23     the guidance in this particular case as well for information related to

24     witnesses who are due to testify.  In this case, in this instance, the

25     Prosecution received considerable additional information about the

Page 32277

 1     witness -- I'll get his KDZ number, well Mr. Indjic, in any event,

 2     comprising lengthy commentary, about 21 newly notified documents, 15 of

 3     which were not on the 65 ter list and three of which are not translated.

 4     So those create significant problems by way of preparation, as the Court

 5     can imagine.  Ms. Edgerton is here to provide any additional details

 6     since she is deeply immersed in the particulars of the preparation and

 7     the documents.

 8             I would note, however, that the nature of the problem is such

 9     that Mr. Robinson also appreciates the difficulties which arise from that

10     belated notification and has indicated, for example, that he had no

11     objection to the deferral of Mr. Indjic's cross-examination until at

12     least some point after Mr. Milosevic's examination-in-chief.  And I

13     appreciate his acknowledgement of the difficulties that arise, although

14     as the Court is aware we are seeing this on a -- now a fairly regular

15     basis.

16             I can provide the Court or Ms. Edgerton can provide the Court

17     with any additional details that may be required, but it is safe to say

18     that the late notification presents hurdles that need to be addressed and

19     that we ask the Court to attend to.

20             I would also note that in accordance with the Court's practice in

21     terms of late notification of materials related to a 92 ter submission,

22     that we would expect a minimum of course that those would be led live,

23     but as we discussed last week the requirement or the expectation that

24     parties will lead information belatedly noticed live is separate from the

25     issue of resolving the notice problem.  So I address those in two

Page 32278

 1     different -- I compartmentalise those for purposes of addressing the

 2     Court and as I did in my discussion with Mr. Robinson.

 3             So those are two remedies that come to mind.  The Court may have

 4     other matters in mind and I know the Court has indicated in the past it

 5     might impose more Draconian solutions rather than the practical solution

 6     of leading matters live and deferring cross-examination until such time

 7     as the Prosecution can at least have the hope of properly preparing.  But

 8     at this moment we're seeking only that those matters be led live and that

 9     the cross-examination be deferred until we can satisfactorily prepare to

10     deal with the material provided.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson.

12             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  First of all, our position is

13     really unequivocal in the sense that we don't mind the Prosecution having

14     enough time to prepare and recognise that when they receive new

15     information, such as they have over the weekend, that they should be

16     entitled to whatever time they reasonably need to prepare before

17     commencing their cross-examination.  On the other hand, we don't think

18     there's any violation of the Court's rules and the circumstances of

19     Mr. Indjic's statement is pretty much as follows:  First of all, he was

20     interviewed I believe in 2011.  You recall that the Court continually

21     admonished us that we should be preparing our Defence case during the

22     Prosecution case, so we tried to do that.  And so we took a statement

23     from him back then.  And then when he came for proofing over the weekend

24     Dr. Karadzic elicited further information that he thought was important

25     and that had since 2011 been highlighted as being of importance to us.

Page 32279

 1     And so that's why all those paragraphs and 20 documents were added to the

 2     statement during -- immediately after the proofing and notified to the

 3     Prosecution over the weekend.

 4             So the rule essentially requires us to make our 92 ter package

 5     48 hours in advance of the witness's testimony.  That witness will

 6     probably commence his direct examination this afternoon, but the

 7     cross-examination wouldn't have commenced until tomorrow morning.  So we

 8     would have been within the 48 hours and I think that we've given enough

 9     notice.  We disclosed the documents to the Prosecution earlier than this

10     weekend.  I think we'd given them those documents about at least a week

11     ago if not more.  So we've done everything we could to comply with the

12     rules, and I think we have, and on the other hand we recognise the

13     Prosecution should have sufficient time to deal with this kind of volume

14     of new material.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, would you like to add anything?

16             MR. TIEGER:  Essentially, Mr. President, as you've seen,

17     Mr. Robinson's submission is consistent with the solution proposed by the

18     Prosecution in this particular case; nevertheless, I think I have to

19     address the suggestion that whatever materials are provided 48 hours in

20     advance satisfy the rules or standards imposed by this Court.  It is

21     obvious that there is a stretching and then a breaking point to the

22     amount of material that can be provided immediately before the 48-hour

23     dead-line that essentially crosses the pragmatic line established by the

24     Court, and there was reference to that earlier.  And the Court always

25     referred to the issue of the extent of the material provided and the

Page 32280

 1     nature of that material.  So while I'm -- I don't know that it implicates

 2     a specific issue by way of resolution in this instance, it's important I

 3     think for the Defence to continue to bear in mind that the nature of the

 4     material added, the volume of the material added, can run afoul of the

 5     guidance provided by the Court if it is extensive enough irrespective of

 6     whether it technically is provided before the 48-hour dead-line.  And you

 7     can look at that in different ways.  You can think of it being a

 8     completely different statement or you could simply heed the Court's

 9     repeated admonitions in earlier portions of the case.  But the fact is if

10     the -- if either party has in mind a great deal of additional information

11     that wasn't notified previously, they simply have to deal with that in

12     other ways rather than dumping it on the other party at the last moment.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson, the Chamber wasn't aware of this

14     situation.  I just received an e-mail from my staff that -- stating that

15     the Chamber has received this revised statement at 9.30 p.m. on Saturday,

16     and the Chamber hasn't had any opportunity to look through whether this

17     is -- this -- these additional associated exhibits would form the part --

18     indispensable and inseparable part of the statement.  I'll consult my

19     colleagues.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson, being consistent with the Chamber's

22     practice, the Chamber will order the Defence to lead live with respect to

23     any revised part -- added part as well as the associated exhibits.

24             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, would the Chamber consider allowing

25     us to vary the order of witnesses so that the direct examination of

Page 32281

 1     Mr. Indjic occurs after the direct examination of Dragomir Milosevic,

 2     thus giving the Chamber at least a couple of days to look over the new

 3     material and the new documents?  I should also indicate that we disclosed

 4     the documents 29th of November to the Prosecution that we thought we

 5     might be using, including these 20, of which three are untranslated.  And

 6     we recognise we would either have to lead those live or abandon them.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  A few things, Mr. President.  First of all, let me

 9     point out and on a very practical level that the same counsel,

10     Ms. Edgerton, is -- will be cross-examining both witnesses in this case.

11     So the change of order doesn't address the preparation issue for us.

12     That implicates a second comment I wanted to make, which is we understand

13     the Court's guidance, consistent guidance, that belatedly notified

14     material needs to be led live as a reflection of the fact the Court does

15     not consider that an appropriate usage of 92 ter and therefore reverts

16     back to the more conventional manner of leading evidence.  But of course

17     it doesn't address the preparation issue.  Either way we've just received

18     that information and it creates the same problem so we need to resolve

19     that as well, which I think is reflected in Mr. Robinson's comments.  But

20     as I say, in this instance it doesn't seem to accomplish that.

21             And finally, the provision of the documents relatively shortly

22     before but untethered to anything by way of notification about what role

23     they play in the context of the witness's testimony is of course more

24     welcome than not providing them at all, but of only the most modest

25     assistance to the Prosecution in properly preparing.  We are not looking

Page 32282

 1     for ways to gum-up the process, Mr. President.  We have bent over

 2     backwards to try to accommodate that and our lawyers are working deep

 3     into the night as a result of these belated notifications to be as

 4     prepared as possible.  So when we bring these matters to the attention of

 5     the Court, it's because it presents significant preparation obstacle, one

 6     that I think is actually quite clear, both to the parties and to the

 7     Bench.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I say a couple of words,

 9     please?

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do not wish to go back to that,

12     but I wish to remind you of one thing.  I asked to start on the

13     1st of March and that was a realistic assessment.  On the other hand, no

14     one can really know that well what a witness can say as I can.  Here we

15     have the accused and we have the lead counsel for Defence in detention.

16     As for the witness's knowledge, the extent of his knowledge, I only got

17     to know about that during proofing.  Very often witnesses are proofed via

18     videolink which can have a huge detrimental effect on the fairness and

19     legality of this -- of these proceedings.  I am trying to contribute as

20     much as I can myself.  We are a lot fewer than the Prosecution.  We work

21     until the wee hours of the morning, sometimes 4.00 or 5.00 in the

22     morning.  We're dropping --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second --

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- because we're tired.  By the

25     1st of March we will have gone through over a hundred witnesses and we

Page 32283

 1     will be very tired by that time --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, by leading live some part of a certain

 3     witness, what prejudice do you have at all?

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  No prejudice, Mr. President, so long as you grant

 5     us additional hours over the 300 to accommodate that, then we would have

 6     no prejudice.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Given the significance or importance of this

 8     witness, this witness could have been ordered to be led live.  So I think

 9     it's a good way to strike a balance to lead live with respect to the

10     revised and added part, and it's only -- it relates only 20 documents.

11     I'll consult my colleagues again.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber sees no reason to revise its ruling it

14     gave earlier on.

15             Shall we bring in the witness?  But next witness is Pljevaljcic.

16             MR. TIEGER:  Yeah, Mr. President, just if I may by way of

17     clarification.  Given Mr. Robinson's initial acknowledgement of the

18     problem and acquiescence in the suggestion that the cross-examination of

19     Mr. Indjic be deferred until after the Dragomir Milosevic direct

20     examination, it may have been that the Court considered that that was an

21     agreed approach and didn't articulate it, but I just wanted to confirm

22     for the sake of certainty of scheduling that that would be the approach

23     adopted.

24             MR. ROBINSON:  We're still willing to do that, Mr. President.

25                           [The witness entered court]

Page 32284

 1             JUDGE KWON:  As to the order of witnesses, I would leave it to

 2     the parties if it is convenient.  The Chamber sees no difficulty with it.

 3     Let's see how it evolves.  And -- yes.

 4             Would the witness take the solemn declaration, please.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 6     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 7                           WITNESS:  TRIVKO PLJEVALJCIC

 8                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Pljevaljcic.  Make yourself

10     comfortable, please.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, will it be you to have the

13     cross-examination?

14             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE KWON:  But the Chamber hasn't been informed of the time for

16     cross, but I take it the Prosecution understands that in case of viva

17     voce witness the Prosecution will have the same amount of time as the

18     Defence for its evidence in chief.

19             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, Your Honour, that's understood.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Excellencies.  Good

22     morning to everyone.

23                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Pljevaljcic.

25        A.   Good morning, and I'm wishing you all the best.

Page 32285

 1        Q.   As you have learned, perhaps we have to have this

 2     examination-in-chief viva voce, so we will go through all the steps.

 3     Could you please tell us your first, last name, and your father's name?

 4        A.   I'm Trivko Pljevaljcic, son of Milo, born in 1955 in the

 5     municipality of Foca, former Yugoslavia.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  I made a mistake now.  I began too early.  We need to

 7     pause between question and answer.  Can you please tell us what your

 8     education is.

 9        A.   I completed secondary school as an electrical engineer and this

10     is what I did my whole life.

11        Q.   Thank you.  And did you serve in the army?

12        A.   Yes, I did.

13        Q.   And what was your speciality?

14        A.   I served in the communications section.

15        Q.   Thank you.  And where did you work and what were your duties?

16        A.   From 1975 I worked in the railway construction enterprise in

17     Belgrade.  I went into the field in Pristina and all over the former

18     Yugoslavia, and then in 1981 I started to work in Focatrans and this is

19     where I worked until I was -- they made me leave.  Later in 1995 I got a

20     job at the Foca correctional facility, which was the KP Dom at the time,

21     that's what it was called, and it's still there today.  I'm still not

22     retired, but I intend to take my retirement this year.

23        Q.   Thank you.  And are you able to tell us where you were when the

24     war broke out?

25        A.   I was at home with my family.

Page 32286

 1        Q.   And where was your house?

 2        A.   Well, I had an apartment in town, but I had left and was in a

 3     village close to Foca, some 5 to 6 kilometres away from Foca, and that's

 4     where I was staying with my family.

 5        Q.   The word "fled" has not been translated.  Can you please tell us

 6     when you left as a refugee, when you fled, and why.

 7        A.   Well, I fled in early April 1992 because the Muslim forces were

 8     evidently arming themselves and it was obvious to all the citizens of

 9     Foca, and this part of town where I was living had a predominantly Muslim

10     population.  And then my village where I come from is an ethnically pure

11     Serbian village, although it borders with two Muslim villages, and this

12     is where I escaped, fled, went as a refugees in order to save my family,

13     my wife and children.

14        Q.   And save them from what?  What kind of danger were they in?

15        A.   Well, there was the danger because a couple of days before the

16     conflict broke out the Muslim forces set up barricades, and one of them

17     was set up in that part which leads to my village.  Another barricade was

18     set up near the medical centre in Foca.  So you couldn't pass.  The only

19     people who could pass were people in medical ambulances and there was

20     some other vehicles that were not allowed through.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the complete

22     sentence.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Thank you.  And who controlled those check-points and who decided

25     who would pass and who would not?

Page 32287

 1             JUDGE KWON:  I was told that the interpreters did not hear the

 2     complete sentence.  Could you repeat the last sentence, Mr. Pljevaljcic.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The last sentence was that Muslim

 4     forces were at the check-points.  They were armed.  Some of them were

 5     wearing civilian clothing and there was a number of them wearing military

 6     uniforms, camouflage uniforms.  The only vehicles that were let through

 7     were ambulances or hospital -- vehicles that were going to the Foca

 8     hospital.  But the last day before the conflict broke out they were not

 9     letting those vehicles through either, so that eventually that section of

10     Foca was completely blockaded.  That was my last sentence.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Mr. Pljevaljcic, can I ask you to speak

12     slowly again and put a pause before you start answering the question of

13     Mr. Karadzic.

14             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   And what was the situation in the other parts of Foca in that

18     regard?

19        A.   Well, as for other parts of the town, I think that the Serbs also

20     put up a barricade in the direction of Cerezluk which is a neighbourhood

21     mostly populated by Serbs; that's where the church is located, in that

22     area, the Serb Orthodox church.  That's where the Serbs put up a

23     barricade.  There were no other barricades in Foca.

24        Q.   Thank you.  And these Serbs and these Muslims who had put up

25     these barricades, who were they?  Were they some sort of official forces?

Page 32288

 1     Who were they?

 2        A.   Well, there were no official forces at the time, yet these were

 3     local Muslims from Foca, they were known to us, as well as the Serbs.

 4     They were also citizens of Foca.  There were no other forces from outside

 5     there yet.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And how did the police force act, the official police

 7     forces which were a state organ?

 8        A.   The official police forces did not react at all and they were not

 9     able to react to these things either because the police was divided.  The

10     town was supposed to be divided as well, in the sense of dividing the

11     authority, the government, in the town.  And they negotiated about that

12     for a few days.  The police station was already divided along the lines

13     of the executors and floors.  One floor was supposed to go to the Muslims

14     and another to the Serbs.  The executive authorities in the municipality

15     of Foca was negotiating about the division of power in the town so that

16     on that day before the conflict actually broke out the division was

17     discussed, and then in the afternoon two Serb negotiators were supposed

18     to be arrested, Mladjenovic and Bodiroga [phoen].  They managed to avoid

19     being lynched.  And then according to talk later the conflict broke out

20     on Tuesday, and on Thursday other Serb members in the executive power and

21     active in politics were supposed to be hijacked.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Well, we will go back to that, but I just want to ask

23     you a little bit more about this division.  Was this supposed to be a

24     physical division or was it about forming two distinct municipalities?

25        A.   This was about forming two municipalities.  It was about dividing

Page 32289

 1     the municipality and that's how it turned out in the end.  After the war

 2     the municipality of Foca was divided in such a way that the Muslims now

 3     have Ustikolina which was before part of Foca.  Now it's called

 4     Foca Ustikolina.  And then the town was supposed to be divided as well;

 5     however, it would have been better if the division had actually taken

 6     place rather than what happened because some people did not wish this to

 7     happen, they did not want this division to actually occur.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Were there conditions -- or, how large is the

 9     territory of Foca?  Was it possible to create several municipalities from

10     that municipality?

11        A.   In the former Yugoslavia, the Foca municipality was the

12     second-largest one, just behind Niksic, so Foca is a large municipality

13     and it was possible to divide it.  Of course not -- of course it's a

14     large territory, it had the proper infrastructure, all the institutions

15     could be divided, and I think that that would have been a much better

16     solution than the one that was actually implemented.

17        Q.   Thank you.  And in that case if each community would have had

18     their own municipality, would it have been possible to expel anyone and

19     would some troubles possibly have been avoided that occurred later?

20        A.   Well, any peaceful solution without expulsions, without war,

21     without conflict would be better, and that's why I say that it would have

22     been much better had this matter been resolved peacefully.

23        Q.   Thank you.  And what was the position of the Serb side in Foca?

24     What were they advocating?

25        A.   The Serb side in Foca was in a way always in a subservient

Page 32290

 1     position.  I'm going to quote a few examples.  When national parties were

 2     supposed to be have been formed - I think this was sometime in the spring

 3     of 1990 - that was when the Serbs sent out an appeal or they put a

 4     question to the constitutional court of the then-Bosnia and Herzegovina

 5     not to permit national parties from registering because the Serbs could

 6     see where this was leading.  However, the answer of the B&H

 7     constitutional court was negative to the Serbs and they did permit

 8     national parties to register, they were formed, they were registered, and

 9     we all remember very well the meeting -- the rally in Foca and the

10     flags - and we will discuss that later - so that after that, a month or

11     two after that, the Serbs were forced to form the

12     Serbian Democratic Party.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

14             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I was listening to this

15     examination-in-chief and it's a totally different examination-in-chief

16     that could have been expected.  When we look at the -- when we look at

17     the statement that the witness has actually given, there is no subject of

18     that kind in there.  So I'm -- the Prosecution did not get any notice of

19     what the witness would be speaking about.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may respond.  Ten to 12

21     paragraphs or 15 or more were deleted that referred to the conditions in

22     which the Serbs lived in Foca.  So now I have to get to these answers

23     beyond questions that have to do with him personally or Focatrans that

24     deal with the conditions of life that had an effect on eventually the

25     outbreak of the conflict.  I did not request for a viva voce examination.

Page 32291

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, given that this witness is

 3     giving his evidence live and that the subject matter so far dealt with

 4     related -- are related to the background of the conflict, I would let the

 5     accused continue.

 6             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. Pljevaljcic, you mentioned that Muslims were arming

10     themselves and preparing for war.  How did you know this?

11        A.   Well, we knew that through various reports.  I will give you some

12     examples.  Before the war broke out, police near Gorazde, near Ustipraca

13     stopped a trailer-truck that was going to Sarajevo from somewhere in

14     Sandzak and the goods it was carrying were suspicious -- actually, there

15     were arms.  That was when the security services centre began working in

16     Sarajevo.  The minister was a Muslim, so this was hushed up.  Another

17     example was when once the war started after a couple of days when the

18     Muslims left Focatrans, in the compound of Focatrans there was a

19     trailer-truck full of mortar shells but they were packed in its original

20     packing of Badelj [phoen] cognac and that's how the shells were packed.

21     Then the Focatrans warehouse, because the Focatrans cafeteria was located

22     in the basement not on the ground floor, these were very large rooms and

23     warehouses and then next to Focatrans there was an enormous railways

24     warehouse which had stopped operating a long time ago.  A lot of weaponry

25     was found there and medical equipment, a lot of food was found there.  So

Page 32292

 1     I think that the bulk or a large part of the weapons that came to Foca

 2     came in with Focatrans vehicles not just from Gorazde but also from

 3     Sarajevo.

 4             If I may add also, when the conflict broke out, they were working

 5     intensively on the manufacture of other types of weapons, and when the

 6     conflict actually broke out the first evening there was strong shelling

 7     of the settlement that I mentioned in the beginning, Cerezluk, where the

 8     Serbian Orthodox church is.  Intensive shelling began from multi-rocket

 9     launchers and mortars and we got a little bit concerned then because you

10     can imagine what a multiple rocket-launcher is with rockets -- large

11     number of rockets being fired.  So when the hill was captured a couple of

12     days later, this Weber was captured and brought to Foca and you could see

13     that it was a multiple rocket-launcher that was handmade and it was

14     produced in Unis which is a factory which produces wires.  And the

15     Muslims were holding the post of director and head of production and a

16     Serb was participating in the production of it, and then when he saw that

17     he said, "Guys, I made this so it was funny for me.  How did you make it

18     you're going to prison?"  And he said, "Well, I was given instructions by

19     my chief.  I don't know why this was necessary."  So he produced some

20     parts of that.  He didn't actually put it together.  So he made some

21     parts of that multiple rocket-launcher.

22        Q.   Thank you.  I will not ask you any further about Focatrans, but

23     could you tell us how possible that these weapons were discovered only

24     after the Muslims withdrew from Foca?  How come you hadn't discovered it

25     earlier?

Page 32293

 1        A.   Well, you know how we discovered it?  The police in Foca was

 2     divided and so was the police station, and if there was anything being

 3     brought in people just didn't expect it.  No one expected the fighting

 4     and the conflict to be so fierce.  There were stories going around.

 5     People knew that there were weapons being brought in, but somehow there

 6     was nothing done about it.  People sort of expected that someone from the

 7     top would interfere and stop all of that, but unfortunately that did not

 8     happen and we know what happened afterwards.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  As for those stockpiled weapons that were warehoused

10     in Focatrans, did Serbs have access to them and were they in a position

11     to uncover this in time?

12        A.   Well, it's quite possible that some of those weapons were hauled

13     in by the Serbs themselves.  You know what happened?  I think about 104

14     of us were issued work permits and the director Djurid -- Murid Djuliman,

15     he brought in another 70 Muslim labourers.  Now, about ten Serbs left,

16     they went back home, they had their own families, they had no means of

17     living, so they were forced to come back and work with the Muslims.  Now

18     what happened?  The people who remained, they worked under a special

19     regimen there.  There was something about it in the paper that was issued

20     about it at the time, I believe it was called "Vox" and the editor was

21     Sahinpasic, called Saja.  Well, so most probably the Serbs were the ones

22     who hauled in the weapons with the trailer-truck that was discovered

23     because they weren't really -- they wouldn't have been able to enter the

24     compound because was there was an officer on duty, a driver who was on

25     duty at the gate.  He was guarding and overseeing entry into and out of

Page 32294

 1     the compound, so no Serb would have been able to enter the perimeter in

 2     his own vehicle because at the gate itself they would have to hand-over

 3     the vehicle.

 4             And my apologies, Mr. Karadzic, but as I said most probably the

 5     Serbs brought these weapons in because of course they had a travel slip.

 6     It said on the travel slip that this was cognac that they were being --

 7     that they were bringing in.  So they didn't know that it was something

 8     quite different.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Now to assist the interpreters, it says in the

10     transcript here when we received work permits, but could you please

11     describe to the Trial Chamber what it is that in our language the word to

12     receive work permit means or work booklet?

13        A.   Well, to receive, to get back, our work booklet means to get a

14     pink slip.  In other words, you are fired.  That's what it means.

15        Q.   Never mind, this is a phrase that we use, a work booklet, but the

16     interpreters do not necessarily know it.

17             Now, tell us, what was the connection between the firing of those

18     104 Serbs and the hiring of 60 Serbs and the weapons?

19        A.   Well, it wasn't 60 Serbs that were hired -- re-hired, it was 60

20     Muslims that were re-hired in their place.  Well, you see, when we were

21     trying to figure out later on what had happened, in fact this is what it

22     was.  The Serbs were in the way of the Muslim authorities, they were in

23     the way of what Focatrans had in mind and their objective was to arm the

24     Muslim population in Foca, Gorazde, and the surrounding areas, and they

25     couldn't do it because of the Serbs.  Because you can see it if you look

Page 32295

 1     at the Serbs who returned, who went back to work there, they simply had

 2     no insight into what type of goods were coming into the Focatrans

 3     compound and what goods were leaving it.  So most probably the Serbs were

 4     an obstacle and in fact it is incomprehensible.  The former Yugoslavia or

 5     even Europe had never seen a thing like that, that in a multi-ethnic

 6     society over 100 employees are fired at the same time.  I believe there

 7     were perhaps two or three Muslims in that group who also were fired, but

 8     that's all.

 9        Q.   What was the position of the police officers from various ethnic

10     communities regarding the arming?  Who was it who took part in this whole

11     operation?

12        A.   Well, as I've said a moment ago, the police just observed the

13     arming but did nothing about it, they didn't react, because they would

14     have been fired.  And they too could then become victims of the ethnic

15     divisions and they could be left without work because at the time there

16     was still one single chief of the SUP.  He was a Muslim.  But as I've

17     already said at the beginning, all the plans had already been in place

18     about the divisions.  Now, the civilian authorities themselves could not

19     prevent the arming either.  Simply, they just watched what was happening

20     wordlessly and things just went their way.

21        Q.   What about the religious communities?

22        A.   Well, religious communities had policies of their own that they

23     pursued, and one could see what their positions were at a religious

24     meeting that -- a rally that occurred in mid-1990s in Pijesak, that's an

25     area in Foca.  And it became clear then what the positions of the various

Page 32296

 1     religious leaders who had come from various parts of the former

 2     Yugoslavia were.  Now, as for our rally that was at the stadium - and I'm

 3     referring -- I don't think there were any priests or any religious

 4     personalities.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  What about the religious buildings, were they used in

 6     the war effort?

 7        A.   Well, absolutely they contributed to the war effort, they were

 8     used, the premises.  I think you can see it in one of the statements of

 9     Sahinpasic, who said that he was surprised when he found in Ustikolina in

10     the mosque building over 100 rifles.  I believe there was several other

11     mosques.  At Gornje Polje, I believe there was one.  I can't recall what

12     its name was.  There was even training being organised there.  The first

13     person who was killed, the first of our men, Serbian, he was killed from

14     the minaret, from a mosque minaret.  So the Muslim religious buildings in

15     Foca served as warehouses.  The same is true of the Sajina [phoen] mosque

16     in Donje Polje.  It was used as a warehouse and he was involved in the

17     sales of vegetables and fruit -- well, he too was involved and that

18     mosque too was used for warehousing Muslims -- arms.  Although the town

19     itself was -- had a Muslim majority.  Now, the services, the religious

20     services, were held on Sunday, every Sunday, and I don't think you could

21     observe anything on those occasions.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Now, how many mosques were there in that general area

23     all together, can you tell us?

24        A.   Well, I can't tell you for certain but about four or five but I

25     believe only two were active.  In other words, the others did not have

Page 32297

 1     any religious service organised on their premises.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Now, was it risky to store weapons and ammunition in

 3     those facilities in the town and were there any other -- was there any

 4     other war-related equipment that was held there?

 5        A.   Well, I don't know, but in this one mosque there was so many of

 6     these anti-tank shells and I don't know where that would have come from.

 7     There was also an explosion in Aladji [phoen] mosque.  There was a rumour

 8     going around when this mosque was blown up, it was sometime in early

 9     fall, I had been wounded and was in Belgrade for treatment.  Now, I know

10     that the mosque was blown up at the time.  There was some 200 kilogrammes

11     of explosives there.  Now, whether the mosque was mined, or rather, blown

12     up by the Serbs or whether it was spontaneous, we don't know, but it was

13     a very strong explosion.  Now, my place was about 200 metres away from

14     there and all the windows were broken as a result of the explosion.  But

15     as I said, I was in Belgrade at the time so I wasn't a witness.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

17             Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

18             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, again the entire passages here

19     is -- has nothing to do with the statement and the information that the

20     Prosecution was notified of.  It seems to me that here Mr. Karadzic tries

21     to basically repeat the testimony of the previous witness from Foca and

22     it has nothing to do whatsoever with the witness's evidence so far in the

23     past.

24             JUDGE KWON:  I take your point, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

25             Mr. Karadzic, while every detail of viva voce evidence should be

Page 32298

 1     notified to the other party, but I think this issue has never been

 2     discussed in his earlier statement or your notification.  Do you

 3     understand that, Mr. Karadzic?

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellency, but I believe

 5     it was discussed in detail that mosques were used as warehouses for

 6     weaponry and ammunition and other equipment.  This was in paragraphs 17,

 7     21, and I'm referring to the unredacted version.  Very well.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. Pljevaljcic, could you just tell us one last thing.  Seeing

10     that the Muslims were arming, what did the Serbs do, did they start

11     arming?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Before you answer, Mr. Pljevaljcic, yes,

13     Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

14             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  This reference by Mr. Karadzic to

15     paragraph 17 is entirely incorrect.  It's basically dealing with one

16     mosque being mentioned here and that's the Saja mosque one year before

17     the war having had weaponry in it.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Ustikolina.

19             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

21             Let me see the last question -- yes -- let's leave it --

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But in paragraph 21 --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Do you remember the last question, Mr. Pljevaljcic?

24     Can you answer the question?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I remember.  As for arming --

Page 32299

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   I believe the Presiding Judge was referring to the previous

 3     question before this whole conversation referring to the mosques.  Am I

 4     correct, Your Honour?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  No, no, we leave the mosque there.  Your last

 6     question seems to be this:  Seeing that the Muslims were arming, what did

 7     the Serbs do?  Did they start arming?  That was the last question.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understood and that's what I

 9     was going to answer to.  There was only a reserve complement of the

10     police.  They were the only ones who armed.  There were -- the Serbs also

11     had a lot of hunting weapons and there was a warehouse not far from the

12     town itself where the civilian Defence had its weapons, but there weren't

13     many weapons there.  Some infantry weapons and that's all.  That was in

14     the area that was under the control of the Serbs.  Now, when the conflict

15     broke out on the following day, the Serbs managed to get some of the

16     weapons from that warehouse.  The Serbs could not obtain any other

17     weapons because the former Yugoslavia and the Army of the former

18     Yugoslavia was nowhere near Foca.  There was a barrack in Ustikolina;

19     however, that was under the control of the Muslims.  And over 80 per cent

20     of the population probably was Muslim so that the Ustikolina barrack was

21     under Muslim control.  We didn't have any other help, any other

22     assistance, either from Sarajevo or any place else because Foca was

23     almost blocked totally, cut off.  Trnovo was under the Muslim control, so

24     was Gorazde.

25             Now, after the conflict broke out, part of the weapons were

Page 32300

 1     obtained, the Serbs received part of the weapons, from the then-Yugoslav

 2     army.  But as I said, they didn't have any infantry weapons before the

 3     conflict broke out, they did have hunting weapons, but they also managed

 4     to get some weapons when they broke into this warehouse which was not far

 5     from Foca.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Who was it who took all the weapons from the

 8     Territorial Defence that belonged to various communities and companies,

 9     local communes and companies?

10        A.   Well, the only weapons that were there were the weapons used by

11     the MUP.  They had fire-arms, automatic rifles.  Now, the Muslims took

12     their weapons.  The Serbs took their weapons from these facilities.  But

13     as I said, this warehouse, the civilian protection warehouse, was in the

14     area that was under the control of the Serbs.  And they took part of

15     that -- a part of that cache of weapons, but they didn't have a lot of

16     weapons because the civilian protection didn't really own a lot of

17     weapons but there were no military companies in Foca so there were no

18     weapons within companies themselves.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Now, could you tell us briefly, describe the outbreak

20     of the conflict, who started it, how it started, who opened fire, and who

21     was killed.

22        A.   Well, I mentioned a bit -- I spoke a little earlier about the

23     barricades.  First they were built roadblocks by the Muslim people some

24     three days before the conflict broke out.  The first civilian victim in

25     Foca was in Vukovina village some 12 to 15 kilometres away from Foca in

Page 32301

 1     the direction of Cajnice, when a woman, the wife of the late

 2     Manojlo Jankovic was killed and his daughter was wounded as they were

 3     tending to their garden.  Now, later on the unfortunate Manojlo was also

 4     killed.  He didn't want to open the door but they shot fire through the

 5     door and we found him dead inside.  So the first victims were Serbs.

 6     Now, the first houses that were set on fire were -- and this happened a

 7     day after the conflict broke out.  This happened in Foca.  I believe

 8     these were the houses of a man called Kovac and then Milisav Kovacevic.

 9     There was also the house of Milisav Obrenovic and Boza Drakulic.  So

10     there were four to five houses that were in a row and they were in the

11     area that was predominantly Muslim.  Now, these houses were the first

12     that were burnt down.  The first rapes in Foca that occurred was the rape

13     of a Serb woman who was raped before the eyes of her husband.  This too

14     was in the area that was under Muslim control and I believe that this

15     woman testified before this Court.

16        Q.   Can we just please briefly go into private session so that the

17     witness can mention the name of the victim who testified in a trial here?

18             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I think that's not relevant

19     because we have heard that before, that when one side does something bad

20     doesn't -- that's tu quoque.

21             JUDGE KWON:  I was wondering at all how this witness could know

22     that witness testified with protective measures here at the Tribunal.

23             Would you like us to know the name of the victim?  I don't think

24     it's necessary.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's just for credibility's sake,

Page 32302

 1     but the witness can explain how he knows about that.  It certainly wasn't

 2     us who informed him.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we go into private session.

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             JUDGE KWON:  Are you coming to a close, Mr. Karadzic?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Hopefully I can wrap-up by the end

19     of this session.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Karadzic, if I may, the first

21     civilian casualties in Foca were Serb casualties --

22             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- the first barricades --

24             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. --

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I just wanted to explain.

Page 32303

 1             JUDGE KWON:  No, no.  You are supposed to answer the question put

 2     by the accused, Mr. Karadzic.  If necessary, Mr. Karadzic will ask the

 3     question.

 4             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   You mentioned some ladies working in a field.  How did that

 8     reflect on the atmosphere in Foca, the first casualties and the first

 9     fires that broke out?  What kind of situation did that bring about in

10     Foca in terms of how people felt?

11        A.   The first cases of arson and the first shellings caused panic in

12     Foca.  So the day after the first shelling there were rivers of both

13     Serbs and Muslims who headed towards Montenegro and Serbia.  You know

14     what it's like when you spend a whole night under shells, it's a dreadful

15     thing and nobody who has not been through that kind of an experience can

16     possibly understand what it's like.  So there was general panic that

17     started affecting the civilian population.  There were large convoys of

18     people leaving town.  Many of the Muslims took shelter in various rooms

19     in the Serb-controlled territory where there was a Muslim minority.  The

20     civilian authorities set up guards and found people who protected these

21     groups, but most of the Muslims fled to Serbia and Montenegro.  Those who

22     remained were secured by the Serbs.  This was on a voluntarily basis.

23     The Serbs made sure there were buses available to take these people away

24     and I think there were over a hundred buses that were used to take

25     Muslims to Sandzak, to Novi Pazar, and to Skopje.

Page 32304

 1             Many of the Muslims were put up in the surrounding villages that

 2     were Serb controlled.  Over at my place there was a Muslim family with

 3     two children; they left in safety.  I was actually the one who drove them

 4     there.  So there was a general chaos that ensued after the first shelling

 5     and the first fires.

 6        Q.   Thank you very much.  Just for credibility, can you give us the

 7     name of that family that you welcomed in your home for a while and then

 8     helped them to leave?

 9        A.   Yes.  It was the Kuloglija family.  The lady's name was Senada,

10     she was a court officer in Foca, and at one point fled to my village

11     which was ethnically pure, as I said.  She stayed there with her two

12     under-aged children, two sons, one aged about 12 or 13 and the other

13     about 7 or 8.  There were other examples like that.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Who was behind the shelling which you suggest caused

15     chaos to arise in Foca?  What date was that and what time of day exactly?

16        A.   It was the Muslims from a nearby hill just outside Foca called

17     Sis te.  They started shelling a Serb settlement called Cerezluk.  They

18     used a multiple rocket-launcher for the shelling and there was also a

19     mortar that was used.  The Serbs had no weapons at the time so they were

20     unable to fire back at the Muslims.  The next day after the shelling had

21     stopped there was mayhem and panic in Foca.  The next day infantry

22     fighting erupted.  So the shelling first started on the evening of the

23     8th and then the next day people were fighting using small arms.  And the

24     first fighter, Rogoljub Trivkovic [phoen] was killed in Alaca [phoen].

25     He was killed by a bullet fired from the mosque there.  There was an

Page 32305

 1     initial round of negotiations that took place.  I negotiated with

 2     Halilovic because the next day they started shelling the right river-bank

 3     as well of the Ceotina river.  I spoke to Halilovic and I tried to reason

 4     with him.  There was a phone line they were using while the phone lines

 5     were still operating, so he used that to get in touch with a Muslim

 6     colleague to plead with him to stop the shelling the right river-bank

 7     which was predominantly Serb, where there were also Muslims there.  There

 8     were 33 Muslims staying in a large room in a house there.  We offered

 9     them shelter there and all these people, the 33 Muslims, later safely

10     left Foca.

11             So Halilovic called this colleague of his on the other side who

12     was on top of that hill and he said, "Stop shelling the right river-bank

13     because we're all together here, Serbs and Muslims alike."  And, well,

14     one thing I can tell you, the shelling stopped, but then infantry

15     fighting erupted in the city itself.

16        Q.   Who was it who was defending and who was attacking at the time?

17     This infantry fighting that you're talking about, what did that look

18     like?

19        A.   Well, you know how it was.  There was a part of town that was

20     Serb-controlled, and naturally it was the Serbs who were defending that

21     particular part of town.  As for the Muslim part of town, that's on the

22     right river-bank.  As far as the hospital and the KP Dom, that was Muslim

23     controlled and that's where the barricades sprang up and that's where the

24     fiercest of the fighting occurred as well.  The Muslim headquarters was

25     in the Focatrans compound.  After the first shelling there were many

Page 32306

 1     civilians who fled there to the headquarters.  People were saying about

 2     500 persons.  As Serbs were advancing in terms of this infantry fighting,

 3     the Muslims were retreating towards Gorazde.  So the headquarters left

 4     the Focatrans compound.  People were saying there were 500 Muslims

 5     retreating along with the HQ in the direction of Ustikolina and further

 6     on towards Gorazde because they still controlled that part of the

 7     territory at that time.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  How did it come about that the Serbs prevailed

 9     although they were not as well organised and certainly not as well armed

10     as you suggested?

11        A.   This is how it went.  Focatrans caused a lot of harm to the

12     Serbs, that's true, but this was the one instance where it actually

13     helped, where it was useful.  The Serbs could never come to terms with

14     each other in Foca, and it was all Focatrans' fault, and then the severe

15     beatings perpetrated by the special forces who had been sent from

16     Sarajevo.  So obviously there was a lot of determination to take Foca and

17     to put it under control on their part.  But what I'm saying is that it

18     took a mere four -- five or six days to take Foca.  There weren't really

19     that many casualties.  All together I think a total of ten casualties and

20     that's on both sides, so very few casualties, and the Serbs were now in

21     control with no assistance from any other quarters, not from the

22     Serbian Democratic Party leadership, not from the JNA.  The Serbs

23     self-organised thanks to Focatrans because Focatrans, those people came

24     to their senses, and then it was possible to organise themselves, which

25     was unlike the Serbs in a way.  And the Serbs proceeded to free the

Page 32307

 1     territory of their municipality.  So the entire municipal territory of

 2     Foca was free in a matter of months.

 3             I'll give you an example.  I was wounded on the

 4     14th of July, 1992, at Cerva Ravna.  That is what the place is called

 5     which straddles the border between Foca and Gorazde.  That was in

 6     July 1992.  And when Dayton came along the Serbs were still there.  They

 7     never budged from that spot.  They never made any incursions into Gorazde

 8     municipality at all.  And the situation was like that along the entire

 9     line being held by the Serbs at the time.  They freed the territory from

10     armed bandits, from armed Muslim groups, they freed all of Foca's

11     municipal territory and they kept it like that until the end of the war.

12     There were two offensives launched by the Muslims trying to get it back,

13     but Alija Izetbegovic was unable to hold on to Foca.  After Foca had

14     fallen he said he felt very bad about this, about Foca falling in

15     particular, and that he would never be able to forgive the Muslims for

16     allowing Foca to fall into Serb hands.

17        Q.   And what about the predominantly Muslim parts of Foca, was that

18     under control at the time as well?

19        A.   The last place that the Serbs managed to free was Tjentiste and

20     Sutjeska.  That was the last location that was liberated by the Serbs.

21     And then they took a couple of months to cleanse the whole territory of

22     Muslim armed units and then it was fully under control.  There were

23     incursions being launched by Muslims throughout the war, resulting in so

24     many casualties.  You know about Josanica, you know about Jabuka, you

25     know what happened at Gornji Miljevina.  Every time the Muslims launched

Page 32308

 1     an operation, it would result in no fewer than 60 civilian casualties on

 2     our side of the front line, people who were actually massacred.

 3        Q.   Can you tell the Chamber briefly about Josanica and all these

 4     other villages?  What exactly was it that happened there?

 5             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 7             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  We have now an attempt again to get

 8     tu quoque evidence in here.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Would you like to respond or are you minded --

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] By all means.  By all means,

11     Your Excellency.  We are certainly not trying to justify anyone or

12     anything here, but events are related, there is a causal link between

13     these events.  It's not about justifying.  What we need to do is try and

14     understand what it means to kill 60 civilians in a single village and

15     that is merely something I'm using in order to introduce the next

16     question I have for this witness.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Since you said so, I don't understand your causal

18     link between these events.  Could you explain it to us?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] By all means, Your Excellency.

20     This is what I mean.  For example, were the Serbs planning something?

21     Was this part of the plan or were these moves caused by fear and by

22     precedence in terms of people getting killed the day before, for example?

23     Because what the Serb community is doing today is very much a result of

24     what the Muslims did the day before.  I'm trying to ascertain whether

25     this was a civil war chaos or whether there was actually a plan, a Serb

Page 32309

 1     plan, at work here.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  No, Mr. Pljevaljcic, this is not a question for you.

 3     Just could you just exercise your patience a bit further.

 4             Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

 5             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, the attack on the village of

 6     Jabuka, that is a matter from July 1992.  It has nothing to do with the

 7     outbreak of the war and nothing to do with the crimes that are charged.

 8     It's basically -- it is tu quoque evidence, and it has nothing -- you

 9     cannot justify the beginning of the war and what happened in Foca with

10     something that happened in July 1992.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber agrees with

13     Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff's observation as to the relevance.

14             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, if I could just point out that

15     scheduled incident 5.4 in schedule A charges a killing in the

16     municipality of Foca that took place in July of 1992.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

18             Schedule -- what's the number of schedule C?

19             MR. ROBINSON:  Schedule A and it's item 5.4.

20             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour --

21             JUDGE KWON:  How is it related to this village of Jabuka,

22     Mr. Robinson, since you raised that issue?

23             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, and I myself don't know and

24     perhaps either the witness or Dr. Karadzic could relate that, but in any

25     event, events which occurred in the municipality in July of 1992 were

Page 32310

 1     clearly relevant in the indictment.  We're not even limited to the

 2     scheduled incidents.  That's just an example.  But I just thought it was

 3     necessary to point it out since Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff was taking the

 4     position that only events leading to the outbreak of war were relevant.

 5     So it seems to me that even absent a direct link between the two events,

 6     the fact that the indictment encompasses events in July 1992 makes

 7     Dr. Karadzic's question relevant and his point valid, that in order to

 8     understand these events it's necessary to see it from both sides, not

 9     simply the one side.

10             JUDGE KWON:  You're saying that absent a direct link between

11     these two events.  And Mr. Karadzic mentioned causal links.

12             Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

13             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Just to be very specific, Jabuka is in the

14     direction of Gorazde, while the village Mjesaja/Trosanj is in the

15     direction of Tjentiste, just the opposite direction, the other end of the

16     Foca municipality.  And when there were -- there occurred an attack, it

17     can possibly have nothing to do with what happens between -- on the front

18     line -- along the front line between Gorazde and Foca.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think a single answer by the

20     witness can clarify the whole issue.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, what was your question?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness mentioned that I was

24     aware of what happened at Josanica, Jabuka, and so on and so forth.  I'm

25     aware of that but the Chamber may not be.  So then I proceeded to ask the

Page 32311

 1     witness to tell us what happened there, because the witness himself saw

 2     fit to point out the important role that these incidents played in the

 3     overall events.  That is why I asked him to elaborate on that.  I know

 4     what happened there but I want the Chamber to know too.  This is a link

 5     established by the witness himself in his testimony.  He said that what

 6     happened there affected the further course of events.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  And what is your submission as to the relevance to

 8     your case?

 9             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I was asking the witness --

11     the accused --

12             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yeah, but I wanted to -- I should have done

13     that actually earlier.  The witness is listening to this submission all

14     the time.  I think it would be better if he would put off his earphones

15     because this discussion may basically influence him.

16             THE ACCUSED:  I may speak in English too so if you need --

17             JUDGE KWON:  No, it's being translated as well --

18             THE ACCUSED:  No, no, if he removes the headphones then ...

19             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber doesn't consider the

22     question is relevant.  Could you move on -- or given the time shall we

23     take a break now?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, that's a good idea.  I would

25     need another 15 minutes after the break, the same amount of time that was

Page 32312

 1     taken up by the objections just now.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  We'll take a break for half an hour and resume at

 3     five past 11.00.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 11.07 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  I'm afraid I have mention that we have to continue

 7     to sit pursuant to 15 bis for the remainder of today, and with respect to

 8     the points Mr. Robinson raised earlier today the Chamber has decided to

 9     have a hearing at quarter past 2.00 with the attorney and the

10     representative of the Registry present at the courtroom.

11             MR. ROBINSON:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE KWON:  That means that we'll stop hearing the witness at

13     quarter past 2.00 and continue to that hearing.

14             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Mr. Pljevaljcic, you mentioned that -- actually, first I would

18     like to clarify this:  Which part of Foca stayed outside of the Serb

19     control and was under the control of the Muslims?

20        A.   Are you thinking of the period?

21        Q.   In 1992, right away.

22        A.   Tjentiste was under the control of the Muslims in 1992 then

23     Ustikolina and a part of Slatina for a brief period.  This was the part

24     of Slatina that links on to Cajnice and Gorazde.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And which part of Foca became the Muslim municipality

Page 32313

 1     of Foca Ustikolina according to the Dayton Accord?

 2        A.   Well, that's the part of the territory facing Gorazde, so in

 3     Dayton that was conceived as Foca Ustikolina.  So the Muslims did not

 4     manage to achieve their intentions regarding Foca so they were awarded

 5     this additional part, Foca Ustikolina.  But that area that faces Gorazde

 6     is quite a large territory.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And in negotiations would the Muslims have been given

 8     a larger territory for Foca municipality?

 9        A.   Well, in any case they would have because there was 1500 more

10     Muslims in terms of the population in Foca, so they would have been

11     awarded more.  At least 70 or 80 per cent of the villages gravitating

12     around Foca were Muslim villages.  The majority of the villages were

13     Muslim, so in any event they would have received more.

14        Q.   And in the town itself what was the majority population?

15        A.   I think that there were more Serbs, some 5- to 600 more Serbs,

16     and overall in the territory of Foca there were some 1500 Muslims more.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Well, could we just make sure to make pauses between

18     question and answer.  Now let's talk about the Muslim villages that

19     stayed under the control of the Serbs and which were cleansed of

20     fighters, Muslim fighters.  What happened to the Muslim civilians in

21     those villages?

22        A.   All the villages around Foca which were predominantly Muslim.  In

23     the cleansing, most of the Muslim able-bodied men fled towards Gorazde.

24     Those who stayed, they stayed a little bit closer.  Because I said

25     earlier that Foca was the second-largest municipality in Yugoslavia so

Page 32314

 1     those people went to the outlying neighbourhoods.  Some of them went to

 2     the town neighbourhoods in Foca so that it would be easier to make sure

 3     that they were secure.  I said that on the right bank of the Cehotina

 4     river there were 33 civilians, women and children.  They were placed

 5     there.  They spent a few days there.  They would go to feed their cattle

 6     from time to time and the same thing applied to the left bank.  There was

 7     a collection centre in a Muslim house, but there were guards everywhere.

 8     The authorities and the Foca Crisis Staff assigned people who guarded

 9     those families in three shifts.  They guarded those civilians.  There is

10     an example in Codor Mahala.  When the conflict broke out in Foca some of

11     these let's call them volunteers or paramilitary members came in those

12     initial first few days, some 30 of them, and one of them tried to enter

13     Codor Mahala to get to those civilians, and he was killed by the guards

14     that were posted there.  So the Serbs had a lot of problems during those

15     couple of days with the paramilitary members or the volunteers, whatever

16     they were called.  There was also shelter in another area and I know for

17     a fact that civilian authorities assigned guards everywhere and that the

18     guards were functioning and the point of the guards was precisely to

19     prevent undesirable persons from entering those places.

20        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned that the village civilian population

21     sought shelter in Foca and they could go to their villages to take care

22     of their livestock.  Did they find shelter in the part of Foca that was

23     under the control of the Serb side?

24        A.   Of course they went to the part controlled by the Serb side.

25     These shelters were all over in that section.  As for Foca itself, the

Page 32315

 1     town was liberated in some three to four days, this is the town itself.

 2     But then there were the outlying areas around Foca that were left but

 3     this didn't take more than ten days other than the villages that I

 4     mentioned.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Well, let's clarify one thing.  These guards

 6     prevented unauthorised entrances to the shelters.  Did they also prevent

 7     the Muslims from going out from the shelters, Muslim civilians?

 8        A.   Of course they did.  Whoever, Muslim or a Muslim family, wanted

 9     to go out, they would get permission from the guards.  They would seek

10     this permission to be allowed to leave.  They could go out towards

11     Niksic, towards Montenegro, and also towards Serbia but via Montenegro

12     through Plijevlja [phoen].  The majority of the Muslims, as I said, left

13     in our transport, buses and so on, whoever wanted to.  Those who did not

14     want to stayed.  I know a few cases.  There's Dr. Zijo who stayed and he

15     was there I think until late July or August.  And then Suljo Hajric who

16     is currently in Norway somewhere.  He stayed with his wife and son and

17     daughter, also until late July or early August.  I also have a colleague

18     who worked at the KP Dom with me.  He was there until the end of August,

19     I think.  There were people, Muslims, who did not wish to leave, and they

20     stayed there.  They lived normally in the same way that we did.  I think

21     that the Red Cross helped all of those Muslim families with food and

22     other necessities, but those who wanted to leave, they left.  They were

23     provided with transportation and nobody was expelled.  I have a hard time

24     with people saying that they were expelled.  No one was expelled, but the

25     paramilitary formations were expelled -- well, actually they were not

Page 32316

 1     expelled.  They were fleeing in front of Serbian forces, but then they

 2     would come back and make incursions around Gorazde and Josanica and I

 3     wanted to clarify some things about that but I was not allowed to.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Let's just clarify one thing.  In terms of

 5     terminology, you were going -- you were talking about departures, but

 6     what I was saying was were they allowed to leave these facilities to get

 7     food, to go to their village, take care of livestock?  This is what I

 8     meant.

 9        A.   Of course they were permitted to do that.  It was allowed, but

10     villages that are 10 to 20 kilometres away from Foca, it didn't occur to

11     anyone, Serbs were Muslims, to go up there, because it was deserted.  The

12     Muslims who were close by in the outskirts of the town, they were allowed

13     to go.  As for food, they would go to shops and whatever was there in the

14     shops that was available.  They would go out and buy these things.  They

15     lived just as the Serbs did.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Other than the civilians from the villages, were

17     there any Muslim civilians from the town itself who stayed who did not

18     escape during the fighting?

19        A.   Yes, there were.  There was a goldsmith.  Unfortunately he died a

20     couple of years ago.  He was there throughout the whole war.  There were

21     a few other Muslims who were there.  There were Muslims in our army.

22     There was a Muslim who was killed in our ranks.  He fought in our ranks.

23     There were some other Muslims who were there throughout the whole war,

24     men and women, and who are living in Foca to this very day.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please tell us the Trial Chamber what the

Page 32317

 1     difference is between those who escaped or who left -- well, I don't mean

 2     left freely to Serbia and Montenegro, but who fled to Gorazde under --

 3     territory under Muslim control and those who dared to remain in areas

 4     under Serb control, what was the decisive factor here?

 5        A.   The distinction here is that those who stayed, they accepted us

 6     normally as their brothers, let's say, and they had decided to live

 7     together with us.  Those who escaped or who were expelled, they were

 8     expelled because they were armed.  Those who went to Gorazde, they had

 9     the idea that they wanted to dominate in Foca, and this is something that

10     we will see later.  We can talk about that later, about these Islamic

11     periodicals associated with "Vox" regarding the green transfers of

12     corridor on that topic, they escaped to Gorazde and were counting on

13     coming back and they even tried that in a number of offensives to come

14     back to Foca and were hoping to keep Foca as a Muslim community, which is

15     what they wanted.

16        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned that you found out that the Serb

17     negotiators would be caught, members of parliament, and that they would

18     be killed and that there was a list of sorts of more prominent Serbs who

19     were earmarked for arrests and liquidations.  How did you know this?

20        A.   I told you, we knew this on the first day, before the conflict

21     broke out.  This is when the negotiations were completed about the

22     division of Foca.  And there were two of our negotiators there,

23     Vojislav Bodiroga and Radojica Mladjenovic there, and they just managed

24     to avoid being lynched in the early evening.  They told us this, these

25     people are still alive and they're still living in Foca today.  So the

Page 32318

 1     final negotiations were never actually completed, and it seems that the

 2     Muslims did not really put much effort into the negotiations because they

 3     were 100 per cent sure that Foca would fall into their hands and that

 4     things would turn out the way they planned and intended for things to

 5     happen and then the special forces when they came to Foca you could tell

 6     by what the Muslims were shouting from their balconies what it was that

 7     they were preparing for the Serbian people in Foca.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  And which year are you talking about now?  Was this

 9     the intervention before the elections in 1990?

10        A.   Yes, all of this happened in 1990 before the elections when the

11     special forces came.  In fact, since the strikers' negotiations in

12     Sarajevo, there were strikers, both Serbs and Muslims, they went to

13     Sarajevo for negotiations to the Federal Assembly and since --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

15             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  We are now in the year 1990 and we are now

16     into the topic of the Focatrans strikers.  I think that was not -- that's

17     not relevant here in the view of the Trial Chamber.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, if you have any specific

19     observation I would like you to move on.  Unless you have any specific

20     observation, please move on.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just wanted to clarify whether

22     that was that intervention and whether there was another intervention

23     after that, but we will finish that topic.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Mr. Pljevaljcic, what was your understanding and your evaluation

Page 32319

 1     of those Muslims who did not escape to Gorazde nor did they seek to cross

 2     into territory under the control of Muslim authorities but wanted to go

 3     to Serbia and Montenegro?  Were these peace-loving people?  How did you

 4     understand this and was the attitude of the Serbian authorities towards

 5     these people?

 6        A.   Most of these people were Muslims, normal people, many people are

 7     normal.  They simply voiced their desire to leave the war-afflicted areas

 8     to go to a different area.  Later they came back, some of them sold their

 9     property, some of them returned, those people in the outlying areas they

10     came back, but all those people remained on good terms with us, with the

11     majority.  Those people and most of us are sharing good mutual relations.

12     I have an example of a person who's still alive, Muratovic who left.

13     Sisic who went to Skopje.  I gave him some money, whatever I had.  They

14     needed it.  We said good-bye.  We exchanged -- we kissed each other

15     good-bye.  I mean, all of these people went of their own free will.

16        Q.   Thank you.  And was any property confiscated by the authorities?

17     I'm not talking about robberies and lootings.  Those Muslims who left,

18     did any of them experience any kind of pressure regarding the status of

19     their property?

20        A.   No, I'm not aware of that.  I don't know that anything was

21     confiscated by the authorities unless you mean the paramilitary forces

22     who would, let's say, find a vehicle and then confiscate it.  That was a

23     normal occurrence during the war, but as for the authorities or the army

24     there was no immovable property being confiscated or mobilised.

25        Q.   Thank you.  What was the position of the civilian authorities,

Page 32320

 1     the Crisis Staff, and then the civilian authorities?  What was their

 2     position and what was their conduct toward or treatment of the Muslim

 3     population?

 4        A.   Well, I believe they were treated fairly.  I think they were

 5     treated the same way that we were treated because they were considered to

 6     be citizens, and since the Muslim military leadership had left of course

 7     the Serbian authorities, the Crisis Staff, took over and they treated

 8     them in the same way that they treated us.  There was absolutely no

 9     difference in that.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know when the Muslims began to organise

11     themselves militarily and do you know the name Halid Cengic and what his

12     role was in it?

13        A.   I believe that the two key persons that were involved in the

14     arming of the Muslims in Foca were that particular Halid and Sahinpasic,

15     also known as Saja.  They were wealthy individuals, they had money, and

16     most of the arming was done through them.  I didn't know this Halid

17     person.  I heard that he worked in Ustikolina but I didn't know him.  I

18     did know the Sahinpasic, but in any case everything had to do with these

19     two people.  He was an administrative persons or director or something

20     like that I heard later on when the Muslims took over -- well, in any

21     case I didn't know him.

22        Q.   You didn't know Cengic?

23        A.   No, I did not personally.

24        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned Sahinpasic, is that the same Sahinpasic

25     that you mentioned earlier as the owner and the editor of "Vox," a Muslim

Page 32321

 1     publication?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   I have no time to show you the "Vox" paper now, but could you

 4     just for the Trial Chamber -- could you tell the Trial Chamber what type

 5     of publication that was and what they issued and what this caused in --

 6     among the Serb population?

 7        A.   Well, this "Vox" magazine, I believe, or publication began coming

 8     out at the same time as the events with Focatrans, but I think officially

 9     it was established in October 1991.  But this newspaper or this

10     publication was aimed at the Muslims and they would provide guide-lines

11     to the Muslims what they were to do.  And this was consistent with what

12     happened or what was happening at Focatrans.  There were -- there was an

13     article published.  There was some ten items mentioned there as to what

14     it was that was supposed to be done with the Serbs there.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Pljevaljcic, could you please tell us one more

16     time who it was who started the shelling and the fighting?  Which side

17     was it who started the whole thing?

18        A.   Well, I can state with full responsibility that the shelling of

19     Foca began on the 8th of April, 1992, and that it was conducted by Muslim

20     forces, that they shelled the town from a multiple rocket-launcher from

21     the Siste hill and there was also or were also some mortars there.  Now,

22     on the following day the Serbs engaged the Muslims in infantry fighting

23     because they didn't have any other weapons, and everything that

24     transpired on those first couple of days - I state this with full

25     responsibility - the Serbs only reacted to what the Muslims started.  The

Page 32322

 1     first casualties were Serb.  The houses of worship that were destroyed,

 2     the first ones were Serb.  The rape -- the rapes that began, the first

 3     casualty was a Serb woman.  And everything that the Serbs did was in

 4     reaction to what the Muslims started.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Now just one other question:  What were the phone

 6     lines like at the time and when did you manage to establish any kind of

 7     communication with the central authorities, the government, at Pale?

 8        A.   At the very beginning and just prior to the war, we had no help

 9     from or any contact with the Serb authorities at Pale or with the army,

10     the Yugoslav army.  I've already mentioned this.  We organised ourselves

11     and all this thanks to Focatrans because then we came to our senses,

12     seeing what they were doing, and we -- and the Muslims had assistance

13     from Muslim units that came from Sarajevo, that were ordered from

14     Sarajevo.  And their job was to sow fear and show Serbs what they could

15     expect.

16        Q.   What were the phone lines like and were you able to get any

17     instructions from the Serb authorities at Pale?

18        A.   Well, no.  There were -- the lines were down.  I believe it was

19     only the first two or so days that the communications were still

20     operational but I believe that this central node, the communications node

21     was in Gorazde, and that the Muslims just broke it, they cut it off.  And

22     as for everything else, everything was down, all the lines were down.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Although the witness has already answered the

25     question.  Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

Page 32323

 1             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, basically since we started this

 2     second session, the witness is addressing issues that were neither

 3     notified in the 65 ter summary nor in the statement that we got.  I just

 4     wanted to mark this point, that he's addressing all sorts of topics that

 5     the Prosecution was not aware of.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  So you're not asking to delay your

 7     cross-examination, are you?

 8             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, it's definitely in the

 9     interests of justice for the Prosecution to be afforded adequate

10     opportunity to prepare for the cross-examination, and I think I would

11     have a basis for a request for the postponement of the cross-examination.

12     However, in order to not disrupt these proceedings even more than became

13     apparent this morning, I'm actually able to do the cross-examination

14     without postponing it.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you very much.

16             I think you're done, Mr. Karadzic.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours.  Thank you and I

18     thank the witness.  I have no further questions at this time.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

20                           Cross-examination by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

21        Q.   Good day, Mr. Pljevaljcic.  Can you hear me?

22        A.   Yes, I can.  Good day to you too.

23        Q.   If I understand you correctly, in the beginning of your testimony

24     you mentioned that you were spending the days of the start of the

25     conflict in a Serb village.  What was the name of this village?

Page 32324

 1        A.   The name of that village is Orahovo.

 2        Q.   And when did you return to Foca?

 3        A.   I returned to Foca some four or five days later when it was

 4     liberated, but as I was the company commander I was with my troops

 5     between Foca and my village, in that stretch approximately, and my

 6     village was some 5 to 6 kilometres away from Foca.  Well simply, we were

 7     guarding the village.

 8        Q.   And I understand that you were wounded on the 14th of July and

 9     from then onwards you were in Belgrade; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And you returned somewhere in 1993; right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Let me address first an issue that relates to finding of combat

14     equipment in the cellar of the Focatrans and finding of other military

15     equipment on trucks.  Can I -- I would ask that Exhibit P3033 be brought

16     up on the screen, please.  And as it is coming up -- it's only in

17     English.  We have only the English version.  It is the expert report of

18     military expert Theunens that he prepared for this case, and can we

19     please have page 51 of this report.  Can we focus a bit on the second

20     part of the page.

21             Sir, the military expert cites here from the JNA vojni leksikon

22     the definitions of the TO and its structure, and it says here:

23             "It is organised in all socio-political communities, republic,

24     provinces, municipalities, OUR, organisation of associated labour and MZ,

25     local communities."

Page 32325

 1             And a bit further down it states that it is equipped to lead

 2     armed combat independently or in co-ordination with the JNA.

 3             Mr. Pljevaljcic, Focatrans was a complex organisation of

 4     associated labour; correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And it had three main organisations of associated labour;

 7     correct?

 8        A.   Yes, the three so-called OOURs.

 9        Q.   And the Focatrans company was a quite significant organisation of

10     associated labour and it had its own TO unit, did it not?

11        A.   No, Focatrans did not have their own TO unit.  They -- it only

12     had a service -- a security service of sorts, a guards service.  These

13     were five men who were armed with pistols.  They guarded the gate, opened

14     the gate and closed it, and checked who went in or out, nothing else.

15        Q.   You yourself were a member of the TO, were you not?

16        A.   I was, but at the time it wasn't referred to as

17     Territorial Defence.  I was in reserve, so-called reserve, for an

18     extended period of time and I attended military exercises.  This was

19     something that everyone who had completed military service would do from

20     time to time.  We were in -- at the main site and we were organised and

21     members of these -- well, it wasn't called civilian protection really.

22     It was called civilian battalions that would organise some parades when a

23     general was promoted or something of that sort.  And this is when these

24     exercises were held in the area between Ustikolina and --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the other place.

Page 32326

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And the civilian service or the

 2     civilian protection had some warehouses but it was only operational and

 3     it would only become active if there was, let's say, a natural disaster

 4     or something of that nature.

 5             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

 6        Q.   Sir, and when you were called to your duty in what you said was

 7     not called TO but reserve TO, you would gather at the Focatrans, would

 8     you not?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   [Previous translation continues]...

11        A.   We only reported with the call-up papers that we would receive

12     from the military section.  We would have to show it at our company,

13     which in my case was Focatrans, in order to be able to attend these

14     exercises so that we would justify our being absent for our company.  So

15     Focatrans had nothing to do with this nor did any other company.

16        Q.   Sir, you already mentioned that you were a company commander.

17     You were the commander of the 3rd Company of the 5th Battalion, were you

18     not?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Sorry, who was the battalion commander?

21        A.   Boro Ivanovic.

22        Q.   And this battalion was part of the Foca Tactical Group; right?

23        A.   Yes.

24             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we please have Exhibit P03354 be brought

25     up on the screen.

Page 32327

 1             It should be in both languages.

 2        Q.   Sir, we have here a combat order of commander Marko Kovac of the

 3     7th of July, 1992, and it relates to, inter alia, the area of

 4     Cerova ravna and Zebina suma.  Sir, Marko Kovac was the commander of the

 5     tactical group; right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And before that he was a JNA officer; is that correct?

 8        A.   I didn't know him but I think he was.

 9        Q.   And he was the commander of a unit of the JNA called Uzice Corps,

10     do you know that?

11        A.   No, I never heard that, no.

12        Q.   We have information and evidence before this Trial Chamber that

13     the Uzice Corps took part in the fighting in Foca when the war broke out

14     and that the Kalinovik barracks supported this attack on Foca with

15     artillery.

16             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  And, Your Honour, just for the orientation

17     it's from KDZ017, KDZ239 and KDZ379.

18        Q.   So it's not correct when you say it was only the local Serbs that

19     took part in the attack, isn't it?

20        A.   The only thing that is correct is that the local Serbs were

21     involved in liberating Foca.  The Uzice Corps had no way of getting to

22     Foca because you have Gorazde between Foca and Uzice.  As for Kalinovik,

23     the distance between Foca and Kalinovik is nearly 100 kilometres.

24     Therefore -- as for Trnovo, Trnovo was a Muslim village.  Therefore, you

25     can rule out any possibility that the artillery from Kalinovik could

Page 32328

 1     possibly have been lending support.  As for Tjentiste and

 2     Svjetevite [phoen], it -- Sutjeska and Tjentiste remained under the

 3     control of the Muslims until that autumn, therefore that possibility can

 4     be ruled out in its entirety.

 5        Q.   Mr. Pljevaljcic, you are aware that a lot of JNA units relocated

 6     from the war in Croatia into Bosnia, including the Uzice Corps who was

 7     actually relocating from Dalmatia, did it not?

 8        A.   Yes, that is true and I did know that.  There was a single unit,

 9     I'm not sure whose, it was about five days before the clashes broke out.

10     They simply passed through Foca and were on their way to Herzegovina.

11     That's what people were saying.  They were on their way to Bileca because

12     there was a large military compound there, but they didn't stick around

13     nor, indeed, did they leave any of their equipment there while they were

14     passing through.  This was five or six days before the clashes broke out

15     and the Muslims were still in Foca.  They simply passed through on their

16     way to Herzegovina and, yes, they said at the time that the unit had

17     originally arrived from a military compound somewhere in Croatia.

18        Q.   Sir, you also said that the SDS did not organise the fighters in

19     Foca.  It was basically the local Serbs organising themselves and the SDS

20     had nothing to do with this.  That's what you said; right?

21        A.   Essentially, yes, that's what it was like.  The Serbs organised

22     themselves thanks to Focatrans.  I can't repeat this often enough.

23     Focatrans came to their senses, as people say, and got the Serbs to

24     finally agree about something and organise themselves and that's what

25     happened.  The SDS was the only Serb party in Foca at the time and of

Page 32329

 1     course they were working with the Serbs and communicating with the Serbs.

 2     So it was a synchronised effort.  We organised ourselves.  We cleaned up

 3     the town ourselves.  Whoever returned later on was always welcome and

 4     that practice continues to this day.

 5        Q.   And Miroslav Stanic was the first commander of the Foca military

 6     forces; correct?

 7        A.   He was the president of the Crisis Staff.  I think that's what it

 8     was called.

 9        Q.   And he was the head of the SDS in Foca as well; correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And the Crisis Staff in Foca was situated -- the SDS Crisis Staff

12     or the Crisis Staff of the Serbs was situated in Cerezluk, near the

13     Orthodox church, was it not, at the beginning of the war?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Let me now return to the exhibit in front of us and can we please

16     have page 4 in the B/C/S and page 3 in the English on the screen.  Thank

17     you.  As you can see under the header "command post:  Ustikolina,

18     barracks," we see here:

19             "The 1st Independent Dragan Nikolic detachment shall take part in

20     the liberation and mop-up of Ilovaca village and beyond as part of one

21     independent battalion."

22             Do you see that ?

23        A.   It's difficult to see, but yes I see that.  Ilovaca as a village

24     was never liberated nor, indeed, were any attempts made to liberate it.

25     The Serb forces got as far as Ilovaca in their effort to liberate the

Page 32330

 1     territory.

 2        Q.   Sir, let me interrupt you here.  My question is:  This unit, this

 3     Dragan Nikolic detachment, was led by whom?

 4        A.   Dragan Nikolic himself led the detachment.  He was killed on the

 5     second or third day of the clashes, I believe, so the commander was

 6     killed and the unit was named in his honour.

 7        Q.   Who led it after he was killed?

 8        A.   After he was killed, I think Branislav Cosovic was appointed to

 9     lead the unit.  These were reconnaissance units and they didn't have that

10     many men.  There was several such units in Foca.  The strength depended.

11     Some had 12 men, some 15, up to 30 at the very most.

12        Q.   Sir, you were the vice-president of the veterans' organisation in

13     Foca and so I assume you know a great number of veterans; correct?

14        A.   I was president of the war invalids' organisation in Foca and

15     then later I became the vice-president of the veterans' organisation.  I

16     remained in that position until I took up my post in the KP Dom.

17        Q.   And given your knowledge of the veterans, you know that

18     Zoran Vukovic and Radomir Kovac, Klanfa, and Janko Janic, Tuta, were part

19     of the Dragan Nikolic detachment; is that right?

20        A.   I think, I think they were.  Tuta was killed I believe at some

21     point, and the other two are alive.  I think that they were members of

22     those units.

23        Q.   And Janko Janic, Tuta, was killed when an arrest attempt was

24     conducted to arrest him for crimes he had committed, sexual assaults

25     against women; correct?

Page 32331

 1        A.   Well, you know, he was killed by NATO soldiers.  To say that --

 2     well, to judge someone before anything has been clearly demonstrated, I

 3     don't know if the late Tuta ever raped anyone or not, it's not for me to

 4     say.  One thing is certain, he was killed during an attempt by NATO to

 5     arrest him.

 6        Q.   And Zoran Vukovic and Radomir Kovac were convicted for rapes here

 7     by this Tribunal, rapes committed against, inter alia, women detained in

 8     partisan sports hall; correct?

 9        A.   I really don't know about these things.  I was never in that hall

10     myself.  I wasn't part of the security detail or anything else.  That was

11     in a totally different area.  I know that they were convicted.  One of

12     them has been released and the other is still in prison.  Zaga is still

13     in prison.  Was anything proven and was that why they were convicted,

14     that is not for me to say.  I know they were tried.

15        Q.   And as you just mentioned Zaga, that is Kunarac, the independent

16     Zaga detachment that is mentioned here right after the Dragan Nikolic

17     detachment.  It says here:

18             "The independent Zaga Detachment shall take part in mopping-up

19     settled areas in the direction of the 5th Battalion's attack".

20             So that is the unit led by Zaga Kunarac, so to speak; correct?

21        A.   Zaga Kunarac was a reconnaissance man, a scout.  He had five or

22     six men with him, no more than that.  He would make rounds,

23     reconnoitring, bringing back information.  That's what he did.

24        Q.   Sir, you mentioned in your testimony that there were some

25     undesirable elements such as volunteers.  Is that -- are these the people

Page 32332

 1     you refer to or who do you mean?

 2        A.   No.  I was referring to volunteers who came from Serbia,

 3     predominantly from Serbia and Montenegro, in other words, from other

 4     countries.  There were none.  There were some volunteers from Russia, I

 5     heard, in some parts of the theatre of war, but it wasn't a predominant

 6     thing.  There were maybe 30 or 40 of these men from Serbia and Montenegro

 7     and they simply wouldn't stay in line, if you know what I mean.  They

 8     were just dissolute youngsters who wouldn't obey any orders and they had

 9     their own groups.  I think they caused probably as much harm to the Serbs

10     as they did to the Muslims.  I'm quite certain about that.  The

11     Crisis Staff in Foca could hardly wait to be rid of those so-called

12     soldiers and I gave you that example where one of those was killed and

13     then we faced lots of problems in the days just after that killing.  They

14     came there to help the Serbs --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not understand the last

16     part of the witness's answer.

17             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

18        Q.   Can you please repeat the last part of your answer because the

19     interpreters didn't hear you.

20        A.   Well, as I said, the volunteers who were there were not desirable

21     from the perspective of the Serb authorities in Foca.  They caused harm

22     to the Muslims, if indeed they did.  But in that case they caused as much

23     harm to the Serbs.  They certainly didn't help.  They refused to place

24     themselves under the control of the Crisis Staff.  They were a law unto

25     themselves and they waged war like that.  There would be several of them

Page 32333

 1     in a group and if there was a crime that was perpetrated in Foca or its

 2     surroundings, it was something that they did independently.  The

 3     Crisis Staff had no way of establishing control over those men.  As I

 4     said Foca was the second-largest municipality in the former Yugoslavia so

 5     it was an enormous territory and it was very difficult to keep all of

 6     that under control.

 7        Q.   Sir, you spoke about the arming of the Muslims well before the

 8     war and you basically gave -- you also gave some examples.  The Serbs

 9     armed themselves as well.  And if I understand your evidence correctly,

10     they started to do so after the Focatrans affair in 1990; correct?

11        A.   Well, I said the Serbs armed themselves -- many of the Serbs

12     armed themselves when the civil protection warehouse was broken into.

13     That was the first day after the clashes erupted.  The Serbs had small

14     arms.  Those who were police reservists did and the hunters did as well.

15     The Muslims armed themselves thanks to Focatrans because that avenue was

16     open to them.  That was their logistics --

17        Q.   Let me interrupt you here, sir.  We don't need to repeat.  You

18     have to listen carefully to my question.  It was a question about the

19     Serbs arming and you have already mentioned that they took over -- when a

20     warehouse was broken in.  But you say Serbs came to their senses after

21     the Focatrans affair.  This I understood to mean that they prepared for

22     conflict; right?

23        A.   I said that they came to their senses, that they got their wits

24     back, in a manner of speaking, after Focatrans.  But his has nothing to

25     do with anyone arming themselves.  When I said getting to their senses,

Page 32334

 1     that means it finally dawned on them, they finally understood what was in

 2     store for them.  It has nothing to do with the weapons; that's a separate

 3     story which I told you about.  As for the Muslims, before the war I gave

 4     you that example involving --

 5        Q.   Let me interrupt you.  I didn't ask you about the Muslims.  I

 6     asked you about the Serbs and I would like you to stick to this question.

 7             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we please have now 65 ter number 24394

 8     brought up on the screen in both languages, please.

 9        Q.   And as it is coming up, it is a proposal of Commander Marko Kovac

10     sent to Vojislav Seselj, president of the SRS to party to appoint

11     Gojko Jankovic as Vojvoda and it's dated the 13th of August, 1993.

12     Mr. Pljevaljcic, you know that Gojko Jankovic was one of the local

13     military commanders; correct?

14        A.   No, he was not a commander.  He was a low-level komandir.  It was

15     a reconnaissance unit numbering no more than 30 men so he wasn't a

16     commander.  By this time I was in hospital in Belgrade and I was

17     recovering.

18        Q.   You know the term "Vojvoda" in the jargon of the SDS party;

19     correct?  You know what it means, a Vojvoda?

20        A.   It's not a rank.  It's not a title bestowed by the SDS.  This is

21     something to do with the Serb radical party, what they refer to as the

22     Chetnik Movement.  I think the term Vojvoda belongs to them and has

23     nothing to do with the SDS.

24        Q.   I may have misspoken or there was a mistranslation.  I actually

25     meant to say SRS, Serb Radical Party, so I may have misspoken.

Page 32335

 1             Let us see how Marko Kovac for what purpose he makes this

 2     proposal and I refer you to paragraph 2.  Right after the header

 3     "explanation," he refers to Jankovic collecting weapons, organising

 4     meetings --

 5        A.   I'm not receiving interpretation.

 6        Q.   Oh, sorry.  Let's try again.  If you look at paragraph 2 of this

 7     proposal under the header "explanation," it says -- it refers to Jankovic

 8     collecting weapons, organising meetings and rallies, training personnel

 9     for the struggle.  Reference is also made to Jankovic's experience,

10     having taken part in the struggle against the Ustasha in Croatia and he

11     refers to Jankovic's special detachment with which he participated in the

12     liberation of Foca and other places.  Mr. Pljevaljcic, would that be a

13     proper description of what Mr. Jankovic's activities were before and

14     during the war?

15        A.   The information that he was involved in Croatia is something that

16     I was not aware of.  As for Marko Kovac's proposal for that promotion, I

17     mean Jankovic, he was probably a good fighter.  So what's controversial

18     about that?  There's nothing controversial from my perspective unless,

19     obviously, this person committed a crime.  But if he was a good fighter,

20     if he defended his people, and if his name was put forward for the

21     highest possible rank in the radical party, I see nothing controversial

22     about that.  I'm not for a moment there going into -- I'm sorry.  I'm not

23     for a moment suggesting that someone did or did not commit a crime.

24     Whoever committed a crime should be held to account for that.  But what

25     I'm trying to tell you here is as far as the Foca Crisis Staff is

Page 32336

 1     concerned --

 2        Q.   Sir, sir, I was referring you to -- I was reading, actually, to

 3     his activities in collecting weapons, organising meetings and rallies,

 4     training personnel.  That's not what he did during the war; right?  It's

 5     what he did before the conflict; is that not right?

 6        A.   That's not true.  I'm sure about that.  I know that

 7     Gojko Jankovic was a native of Foca, but he actually lived in Herceg-Novi

 8     in Montenegro before the clashes broke out, so he wasn't even seen in the

 9     area.  It cannot possibly be true, therefore.  He arrived with his wife

10     and children from Montenegro, from Herceg-Novi, which is a seacoast town,

11     and he made himself available to the Serbs in order to contribute to the

12     defence of his native town.  But it is simply not true that he was

13     present at any of the rallies.  I don't think there were any.  I think

14     there was a single rally when the party was first established and that

15     was about it.

16             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I would like to tender this

17     exhibit.

18             MR. ROBINSON:  Objection, Mr. President.  The witness hasn't been

19     able to confirm anything about what's been said in the exhibit and he

20     indicated he was in Belgrade in August of 1993 when the document was

21     written.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

23             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  First of all, the date of the document isn't

24     really at issue because the content of the document refers to the period

25     when the war started and when the witness was still on the ground in this

Page 32337

 1     area and the witness has also confirmed that Gojko Jankovic was a -- the

 2     leader of a unit, a reconnaissance unit, and he is basically also for

 3     that purpose here proposed to become a Vojvoda.  So I think there is

 4     some -- there is basis.  And just to also mention, it's for impeachment

 5     purposes as well.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson, the Chamber agrees with

 8     Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.  We'll receive it.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6082, Your Honours.

10             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we please have 65 ter 40199B played.

11     And we have -- this is the video -- sorry, it has already a P number.  It

12     has a P number.  It's P03476.

13        Q.   And, sir --

14             JUDGE KWON:  You said it is part of a --

15             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  This is what we -- this is actually what we

16     had admitted with the previous Foca witness.

17             JUDGE KWON:  I -- when Mr. Vujicic was here we saw part of it.

18             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.

19             JUDGE KWON:  When you presented that you told us it is part of

20     P3476.

21             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  That's correct.  I misspoke, Your Honour.

22     It's -- can we please have P6081.  That's actually the same two excerpts

23     that we heard with the previous witness, and I want to play -- I want to

24     play this first little clip again in relation to what Stanic said about

25     activities before the war.

Page 32338

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  That's wrong -- yeah.  We need to hear the

 3     voice.  Can we please try again.  It worked last week.

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5             JUDGE KWON:  If you have another topic, could we come back to

 6     this --

 7             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  -- clip later on.

 9             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  The only other option I would think we have

10     is that I could simply read what Mr. Stanic is saying --

11             JUDGE KWON:  I see no problem --

12             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  No.

13        Q.   Sir, we have looked at this video with another witness last

14     Friday and I simply read to you - you cannot hear now Mr. Stanic saying

15     this, but you can -- you should accept that this is what he is saying --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Or we have -- we can upload the transcript --

17             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.

18             JUDGE KWON:  -- in both languages.

19             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, yes.  That's another option, yes.

20        Q.   Sir, if you look at the first short excerpt that you see here a

21     bit blown up, and Mr. Stanic is referring here to the

22     Serbian Democratic Party leaving all political activities aside and began

23     the self-organisation of the Serbian people and he speaks about forming

24     eight battalions which were led by some of the Serbian reserve officers

25     and he refers to a particular event of a battalion being lined up and

Page 32339

 1     inspected in June 1991.  Sir, this is what Mr. Stanic says about how the

 2     Serbs prepared for the conflict and he speaks of June 1991.

 3        A.   I'm not aware of that.  As for battalions forming in 1991, that's

 4     something that I don't know anything about.  There's no date here even.

 5     I don't know.

 6        Q.   The date is June 1991, at least for the inspection of this

 7     battalion.

 8        A.   What Stanic stated after the beating of the Serbs, that is okay,

 9     but that the battalions were formed in 1991 that's something that I am

10     not aware of.  I was part of the 5th Battalion but it was not formed in

11     1991.  This is an error.

12        Q.   Can we focus a bit further down on that same page for the second

13     excerpt.  And, Mr. Pljevaljcic, you have only two lines here, the two

14     last lines that you can see here and we need then the B/C/S the next

15     page.  And as you can see, he is again referring to the Serbian military

16     organisation being prepared a year before and he mentions here the first

17     commanders --

18             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second now.  I'm not sure -- I was told that

19     there's no second page -- yeah, the second page in B/C/S.

20             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  There is a second page.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I -- I actually wanted to

22     mention this when the first clip was shown.  Can we please know why

23     Mr. Stanic said it was strong?  Why was it redacted?  What is Stanic

24     talking about?  What was strong?  That's part of the statement by Stanic.

25             JUDGE KWON:  I think it's -- the Prosecution only offered that

Page 32340

 1     part --

 2             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  We offered both.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  But Mr. Karadzic was referring to the redacted part.

 4             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Oh, the redacted part is --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  I take it Mr. Karadzic has access to the whole part,

 6     doesn't he?

 7             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, he has.  And, actually, I have omitted

 8     to mention it, Mr. -- when it comes to this second part Mr. Stanic was

 9     referring to the Muslims and the Muslim forces being strong.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

11             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  "It was strong" refers to the Muslims.  Yes.

12     I omitted to say that, sorry.  I thought it was in here.

13                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If we could have the number --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

16                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  The entire --

18             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure I understand the explanation, but what

19     I was told that the Registry can't upload the second page.  If we

20     collapse English, then can we upload the second page for the benefit of

21     the witness since we have read the English page.

22             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.  Yes, and I actually can read from the

23     entire -- the entire version of this Stanic interview.  It's a

24     question -- sorry.  The questions that was redacted but can and should be

25     actually in there.  The question of the host was:

Page 32341

 1             "Your response to the Muslims had to be swift because as we all

 2     remember the SDA party of democratic action was strong in Foca at that

 3     time."

 4             That is something that the host put to the -- to Stanic and then

 5     there is this Stanic answer.  Perhaps we should upload a new version

 6     where this particular question is seen.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please proceed, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, before she does that would it be

 9     possible to give us the 65 ter number of the unredacted version so we can

10     follow these parts?  I know it's been disclosed to us, but we don't

11     really know where to find it at the moment.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Could it be done during the break?

13             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.

14             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, we actually have it right here

15     at hand, and it is 40199.  That's the entire tape and the entire

16     transcript.

17        Q.   Sir, here you see again the reference to the preparing of the

18     military organisation of the Serbian people a year before, and then there

19     comes a list of commanders mentioned, the first were commanders.  And

20     among them is Gojko Jankovic.  And he is mentioned here next to

21     Boro Ivanovic and you said that he was the commander of your battalion,

22     the 5th Battalion, and he is mentioned here next to Pero Elez, another

23     commander of a battalion.  So Gojko Jankovic is mentioned here among the

24     first commanders.  You see that?

25        A.   I can see that but something is not quite clear to me here.

Page 32342

 1     There is this Radmilo Pljevadzic there.  He was not a commander of any

 2     kind.  He became the commander of the intervention platoon only after I

 3     was wounded and year after the conflict broke out, actually, so something

 4     is not quite clear to me here.  But again, I am saying that as far as

 5     what is here, there was Boro, he was the commander of the battalion and

 6     then perhaps -- well, as for Cosovic and this Zivanovic, as for Gojko

 7     Jankovic, these were all komandirs, not commanders; that's the

 8     difference.  Perhaps you don't see that distinction.  They were komandirs

 9     of reconnaissance units.  As for the statement by Miro Stanic,

10     Miro Stanic and the Serbs could see that it was no joke and that after

11     this ruthless attack on the civilian population of the Serbs, it's normal

12     that the Serbs headed by Miro Stanic decided to self organise and to

13     defend themselves.  As for help from outside, we didn't get help either

14     from the Pale leadership or from the Yugoslav People's Army, no help.  We

15     organised ourselves.

16        Q.   Sir, you mentioned a bit earlier ago that you did not know about

17     these kind of activities, when they occurred, so you don't know who

18     assisted Mr. Stanic in doing all this; is that not right?

19        A.   I was not a battalion commander so I wasn't really meant to know

20     that.  I don't know if the others knew it.  I don't know if this is what

21     the Crisis Staff did when forming its units, the Foca Crisis Staff.  I

22     think it numbered 15 members.  So probably they were working on

23     appointing commanders and on forming units.  But it was all with the

24     objective of defending or protecting the Serbian people.

25        Q.   Sir, while you don't know matters that occurred on the Serb side

Page 32343

 1     before the outbreak of the war, you provided a great deal of detail in

 2     relation to the Muslims, what they were doing.  That's hearsay, right?

 3     That's not what you really saw.  This is what you read, that is what was

 4     rumoured, and that is what people would be speaking about; correct?

 5        A.   No, it wasn't quite like that.  I experienced the Focatrans.  I

 6     experienced the barricades that were erected in Foca.  I had personal

 7     experience with that because we had to go to bring this girl, a

 8     10-year-old girl, from the late Jankovic who was wounded and her mother

 9     was killed.  We had to bury the mother.  I mean, these were all things

10     that I experienced personally.  I'm not talking just off the top of my

11     head.  I experienced the burning, the torching, of the Serb houses.  It's

12     true, I didn't see the church in Jabuka burn because it's far away, it's

13     50 kilometres from Foca, but I knew that it was set on fire and not only

14     was the church torched but some 50 civilians were killed there as well

15     and it wasn't the Serbs that killed them.

16        Q.   Sir, in your evidence here in the court, you referred to Muslims

17     that fled to their Serb neighbours to be safe; correct?

18        A.   You mean Serbia Montenegro?

19        Q.   No, you -- sorry.  I understood your evidence that while still in

20     Foca Muslim villagers or Muslim neighbours in Foca fled to the Serb

21     neighbours to be safe; correct?  You gave a few examples and you yourself

22     also helped and accommodated such neighbours, Muslim neighbours.

23        A.   That's correct.  I said that the Muslims had gone to safe

24     places -- actually, the Serbs made it possible for them to seek shelter

25     and they provided security for them.  This was in places where the

Page 32344

 1     population was mixed or where the Muslims were in a minority.  In places

 2     where the Muslims were in a majority, they held that part of town until

 3     the Serbian forces liberated that part as well.  When the majority

 4     Muslim-populated parts of town were liberated, Muslims, particularly the

 5     able-bodied men, left for Gorazde.  And the civilian population that

 6     remained behind were taken care of, taken to secure places and later were

 7     permitted to leave, to go to Serbia or wherever they wanted.

 8        Q.   You also described how you helped a Muslim -- Muslims out of

 9     Foca, remember that?  You gave an example of this.

10        A.   I did, yes.  This was an outlying neighbourhood of town and there

11     were 33 Muslims placed there.  They were some three days in that place

12     and then later they left, they went safely towards Montenegro.  There was

13     another village bordering on Orahovo.  It's a village by the name

14     Subi Suljci and when the village was supposed to be cleansed, if I can

15     put it that way, from armed Muslims, the able-bodied Muslim men from

16     those villages had already left for Gorazde.  I personally went to that

17     village with another two soldiers.  We sat in Asim Memic's house.  We sat

18     with his daughters-in-law, his grandchildren.  We had coffee.  They said

19     they went to Gorazde.  I said, Why did they go?  We can all live

20     together.  If anybody's armed or whatever, if there are any armed

21     formations -- I mean there was no need, so that's how it was.  And so

22     those people from that village of Subi Sulci withdrew later.  Some 15

23     days or a month later they withdrew to Gorazde.  Nobody was harmed.  That

24     was their decision to go like that.

25        Q.   But what I understand from your evidence is that Muslims needed

Page 32345

 1     help to get out of Foca, help by their Serb neighbours; right?

 2        A.   Yes, they were given help.  We provided help.  We organised buses

 3     and whoever wanted voluntarily to leave the town -- actually, it was

 4     their request, their wish, to go to seek shelter to get away from the

 5     conflicts between the Serbs and the Muslims.

 6        Q.   Sir, you mentioned that when Muslim villages were cleansed from

 7     Muslim fighters, the civilian population was taken to locations in Foca

 8     for safe-guarding to protect them also.  And in this context, or rather,

 9     we also mentioned here the villages of Trosanj and Mjesaja.  There's

10     evidence before this Court that this village was totally burnt down, that

11     the men of the village were killed and the women were detained in

12     Buk Bijela, Foca high school, and partisan sports hall and they were not

13     protected; on the contrary, they were raped by men that we mentioned this

14     morning, including also Gojko Jankovic.  Isn't that what happened in Foca

15     or would you not know that?

16        A.   I don't know about this other thing -- well, in my statement I

17     never said that.  I didn't say anything about Trosanj, Mjesaja.  I am

18     hearing of that for the first time.  That's not my testimony.  Actually,

19     it's quite the opposite, as far as I'm concerned.  I never said that.  I

20     don't know where you got that from.

21        Q.   I have actually mentioned the evidence that is before this Court,

22     and it's actually from July 1992 so I was wondering whether that's -- you

23     do not know about this because you were not here -- you were not there at

24     that time but you were in Belgrade.

25        A.   I was in Belgrade, but actually that's quite on the other side in

Page 32346

 1     relation to where I lived.  I told you about the right bank of the

 2     Cehotina river and the right bank of the Drina River.  That's where my

 3     battalion was.  As for Trosanj, I don't know.  I think that the Foca

 4     Crisis Staff, its order was explicit.  The civilian population was to be

 5     protected.  But since the civilian population, the villages were far from

 6     Foca, this -- they had to come down to places where we could provide

 7     security which could be monitored.  I know where this village of Trosanj

 8     is more or less.  It's far from Foca.  You would need a whole unit

 9     located up there in order to secure the population, or Tjentiste, that's

10     more than 50 kilometres away.  So this was done.  And if any of the

11     civilians remained, they were taken care of in Foca in these several

12     locations.  These people, men and women, were brought and accommodated in

13     KP Dom as well, a number of them.  I don't know whether some people were

14     missing or not missing from the KP Dom, I mean I don't really want to get

15     into that.  But the objective of the Crisis Staff was to accommodate --

16     provide accommodation for the civilian population --

17        Q.   Let me interrupt you here.  As you don't know -- as you were away

18     from Foca from the 14th of July onwards, I understand perfectly well that

19     you may not know about Trosanj and Mjesaja and the details of that, but

20     does that not also mean whatever you say about this period, that is, the

21     voluntary departure of people, the protection of people in certain

22     localities in Foca, that's all hearsay and you cannot confirm any of that

23     because you were not there.  Isn't that what it was?

24        A.   What I was able to confirm for you I confirmed, but I cannot

25     confirm anything that happened in September in 1992 in Tjentiste because

Page 32347

 1     I heard that Tjentiste was liberated only in August or September of 1992

 2     so I cannot say what was happening up there.  I was fighting for my life

 3     at that time in Belgrade.

 4             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, a minute, please.

 5                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 6             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, no further questions.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 8             We'll continue after the break if you have any re-examination,

 9     Mr. Karadzic.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just a few, Your Excellency.

11             JUDGE KWON:  We'll resume at 1.25.

12                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.40 p.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 1.30 p.m.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.

16                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Pljevaljcic, just a few questions and I hope

18     we'll be done soon.  On page 55 my learned colleague,

19     Madam Uertz-Retzlaff, asked you about the participation of the Uzice

20     Corps in the attack on Foca.  Could you tell us who it was who was

21     attacking Foca and who was defending themselves from Foca.

22        A.   As far as I know, the Uzice Corps had absolutely nothing to do

23     with Foca nor was it anywhere near that area.  As I've already said, the

24     shelling of Foca began and it was the Muslims who were shelling it, and

25     there was no other attack except in the following, in the ensuing, days

Page 32348

 1     some infantry fighting came about.  But the Uzice Corps had nothing to do

 2     with Foca.  It didn't take part in any way.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Pljevaljcic.  What I would like you to clarify for

 4     us is this:  Were there any Serb forces from outside Foca that attacked

 5     it and who were the attackers and who were the defenders of Foca?

 6        A.   There were no forces from outside of Foca that attacked Foca.  On

 7     our part I don't know if there were Green Berets or paramilitary units on

 8     the Muslim side, but as for Foca it was attacked by the Muslims and it

 9     was defended by Serb volunteers, Serb patriots from the town of Foca who

10     managed to defend it and who liberated it.  That is the fact.

11        Q.   Thank you.  I would like to ask you now about artillery.  Now,

12     mention was made here that there was artillery taking part in the attack

13     on Foca.  Now, whose shells and whose bombs fell on Foca?

14        A.   Well, the first shells that fell on Foca were Muslim shells and

15     this went on the first night, and then on the following day there was a

16     multiple rocket-launcher and there was some mortars.  So these shells

17     were the first shells that struck Foca and this went on from around

18     10.00 p.m. up until sometime after midnight or around 1.00 a.m., so that

19     the next day there was panic in Foca.  As for shelling, there was no

20     shelling in Foca.  There were only -- there was only infantry fighting.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Now, on page 57 the learned Madam Uertz-Retzlaff said

22     the Crisis Staff of Foca and then she added the SDS Crisis Staff of Foca.

23     Was this Crisis Staff a party organ or a municipal body?  Was it -- were

24     the members of it party people or municipal officials?

25        A.   Well, there were no party people in the Crisis Staff -- well,

Page 32349

 1     there was perhaps one of the members of the Crisis Staff which was a

 2     municipal staff was also a member of the SDS, but it was a municipal

 3     staff and it was established by the municipality once the negotiations

 4     fell through.  Now, half of the representatives in the municipality were

 5     Serbs.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  On page 60 I'm afraid that your full answer is not

 7     reflected.  Did you say there that these volunteers --

 8             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

10             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  As you have seen, Ms. Gustafson and I, we

11     have changed the seat, but that's why I have to interrupt you because you

12     can't see me so well anymore.  I think when he now refers to -- in this

13     way to certain things that the witness had said or may not have said, I

14     think he has to formulate it in a -- not in a leading way.  When you see

15     here:  I'm afraid that your full answer is not reflected, I think he

16     should ask the question that he find the answer is missing to rather than

17     citing.

18             JUDGE KWON:  He was about to quote the transcript page.  Should

19     we see how he formulates his question, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

20             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, I'm only afraid that it will be already

21     giving the answer.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Let us see.

23             What is your question, Mr. Karadzic?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I could have intervened at

25     the time in the transcript, but I didn't want to interrupt.  But I can

Page 32350

 1     read out a portion of the answer and then ask the witness what it was

 2     that he had also said but was omitted if that's how you would prefer it.

 3     That's page 60, lines 7 through 10.  May I read it out, the witness's

 4     answer?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Please proceed.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   This is what your answer was:

 8             [In English] "The Crisis Staff in Foca could hardly wait to be

 9     rid of those so-called soldiers and I gave you that example where one of

10     those was killed and then we faced lots of problems in the days just

11     after that killing.  They came there to help the Serbs."

12             [Interpretation] And then you said something else - and that can

13     be checked - to the effect:  We came there to help.  And you -- could you

14     just finish your sentence, please.

15        A.   Well, yes, when this man, this volunteer, was killed - if I can

16     call him that - we had serious problems with these volunteers, we Serbs.

17     And they said we came here to help you defend yourself and you are

18     killing us, something to that effect.

19        Q.   Thank you.  That was not reflected in the transcript so that's

20     all I wanted to clarify.  Now on page 61 my learned colleague -- my

21     learned friend Madam Uertz-Retzlaff said -- mentioned the Foca and she

22     said that the arming of the Serbs began in the 1990s -- in the 1990 --

23     the year of 1990.  Was that the case?

24        A.   Well, certainly not.  I told you already about the year of 1990.

25     The arming of Serbs began and most Serbs armed themselves - I have to

Page 32351

 1     repeat this one more time - on the first day of the breakout of the war

 2     which is when they broke into depots of Territorial Defence and found

 3     some infantry weapons there.  There were no other weapons.  There was no

 4     artillery.  There were no bombs, no hand-grenades, no shells.  There was

 5     only -- there were only infantry weapons.  So most Serbs armed themselves

 6     then.

 7        Q.   All right.  I just want to ask you one other thing to do with the

 8     interview with Mr. Stanic.  I don't know exactly when it was that he gave

 9     this interview.  Now, was it customary for local people to brag to sort

10     of claim the credit for something that people did to claim the credit for

11     themselves?

12        A.   Well, yes, that was quite common there and there's something

13     that's not really clear to me in this report of Mr. Stanic's.  Now, if

14     you know Mr. Stanic - and I know him well - he's a very peaceable,

15     peace-loving, quiet man.  And to him a good soldier would be a commander.

16     So that's the difference.  Now, he would refer to any good patriot, any

17     good fighter, good soldier, a commander.  Now, most of these names --

18     most of these people whose names are mentioned there, most of them were

19     not commanders at all.  So this statement of his or this interview of

20     his, he just tried to embellish things a bit because the Serbs were the

21     ones who freed Foca.  And he as the chairman of the party probably felt

22     that there was some credit for him too to claim in this situation.  So he

23     was probably just embellishing a little and bragging a bit.

24             THE ACCUSED:  I wonder whether "embellish" would be translated

25     bragging -- more properly "bragging" than "embellish."  [Interpretation]

Page 32352

 1     Because the witness said that he was bragging.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Is there much difference?  We noted your

 3     observation, but please refrain from making -- asking leading questions.

 4     Please continue.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Now, on page 72 you were asked about help you -- about the help

 8     that the neighbours, Serb neighbours, provided to their Muslim friends

 9     and how they helped them leave there.  Now, what was the position of the

10     authorities?  Do you know that there was a time when the authorities

11     tried to prevent anyone from leaving, so either side?

12        A.   I know that --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

14             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Another leading question.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

16             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  The previous was already but I ignored it,

17     but this is again leading.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Agreed.

19             Reformulate your question, Mr. Karadzic.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   What was the position of the Serb authorities in Foca vis-a-vis

22     the departures of either Serbs or Muslims from Foca?

23        A.   As for the -- both the Muslims and the Serbs leaving - and we

24     haven't mentioned here something earlier but I think I did - that Serbs

25     too were leaving.  But as for the Serb authorities in Foca, they never

Page 32353

 1     tried to prevent anyone from leaving voluntarily.  They assisted them in

 2     that; however, they tried to appeal to people not to leave.  They said

 3     that they would try and provide everyone the protection they required,

 4     and that was the case with everyone who stayed behind.  I told you of

 5     instances where people stayed behind.  They spent the entire war together

 6     with the Serbs.  There were also those who left toward the end of 1992

 7     and then returned later on.  There's still people who worked with me.

 8     For instance, there is a colleague at KP Foca where he left in 1992 for

 9     Turkey.  He was -- this was facilitated by the Serb authorities at the

10     time, but he returned together with his families.  So the Serb

11     authorities made it possible -- facilitated everyone who wanted to leave.

12     They facilitated their departures.  But the same applied for everyone and

13     they allowed the Muslims everything that they allowed the Serbs.  It was

14     a difficult time.  It was war time.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Could we now briefly look at P2642.  This was before

16     your wounding, you were still in the unit.  Could we please have that

17     document P2642.  While we are waiting for the English version, would you

18     please take a look at the first page, the cover page [indiscernible].

19             Read it to yourself, Mr. Pljevaljcic.

20        A.   Yes, that's how it was.

21        Q.   Next page, please, the first page in its entirety and then let's

22     move on to page 2.  Tell me when you're done, please.

23        A.   Well, it's all just the way it is stated here.  All those who

24     wished to leave were allowed to leave safely and transport was provided.

25     Those who wished to stay were allowed to get on and have a dignified

Page 32354

 1     existence.

 2        Q.   Yes.  So this document, to the best of your knowledge, reflects

 3     the actual moves made by the Serb authorities in Foca, does it not?

 4             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, leading again.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] How?

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   What is the relation between this document and what actually

 8     happened?

 9        A.   Well, I've never set eyes on this document before, but everything

10     that I said during my evidence is entirely in keeping with what the

11     document states and yet I've never seen it before.

12        Q.   Thank you very much.  The issue of the Muslims arming themselves

13     was raised as well.  I would like to ask you the following:  You said you

14     knew Sahim -- Sahinpasic, Sajo, and you also heard of Halid Cengic.  What

15     sort of reputation did these two people enjoy, in a legal sense, the

16     legality of their behaviour?

17             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

19             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I did not address these personalities and I

20     did not address this topic of their involvement in arming, whatsoever.

21             JUDGE KWON:  No.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm trying to save time and this is

23     a Prosecution document.  Perhaps it's not known -- I'm sorry, it's a

24     Defence document.  The thing is Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff talked about rumours

25     back in 1991 about Muslims arming themselves.  I have a Muslim document

Page 32355

 1     here D299, which states exactly the opposite.  It's a Muslim document

 2     produced by the Muslim security service --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  I'm not sure whether we heard about

 4     rumours about Muslim arming.

 5             Did you ask any questions about that, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

 6             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I actually put to the witness that while --

 7     because he was not there and he would not know that, and that's what he

 8     was relying on was hearsay and rumours.  I used the word "rumours,"

 9     that's for sure.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

12             Please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Were those rumours or do you have information indicating that the

16     SDA was arming the Muslims in Foca and organising them in a military

17     sense?

18        A.   Those weren't rumours, that's for sure.  If you take the case of

19     that truck full of weapons in Foca and once the clashes had broken out

20     there was a truck full of weapons that was stopped at Focatrans, and

21     there was a whole arsenal, a cache of weapons in the Focatrans canteen.

22     And if you take the whole of Gorazde which was surrounded - as this Court

23     claims - and everybody in Gorazde was armed to their teeth, well you can

24     imagine where the weapons came from and when did the weapons arrive.

25     Well, it had to be at some point earlier on, didn't it?  How could

Page 32356

 1     Gorazde have possibly been surrounded by the Serb forces and yet they

 2     were all armed to their teeth over there?  Well, the weapons didn't just

 3     fall from the sky and land straight in their lap, right?

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] D299, please.  Can we have that in

 6     e-court.  Thank you very much.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Can you please focus on this.  This is the BH security

 9     administration.  Can we please have the final page of this document just

10     to see who signed it.  This is the 17th of July, 1993.

11     Fikret Muslimovic, chief of security.  Can we please go back to page 3.

12     I'd like to read to you a portion of the document:

13             "Sahinpasic is a private tradesman from Foca and a delegate to

14     the citizens' council and Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Cengic is an

15     accountant at the Mlin RO work organisation in Ustikolina and town

16     councillor in the Foca.  From the time they came to power having gathered

17     around themselves their family and friends they started with all kinds of

18     fraud and smuggling which brought them huge amounts of money.  The

19     increasingly complex political situation and deteriorating inter-ethnic

20     relations during 1991 played into their hands, since arms smuggling was

21     flourishing and they are doing nothing to appease the situation but were

22     on the contrary inciting it with their actions and political activity."

23             The last sentence said:

24             "The rifles that Sahinpasic and Cengic are selling are being sold

25     for 1.200 to 1.500 German marks.

Page 32357

 1             According to some intelligence 5.200 rifles came to Foca via the

 2     SDA which Sahinpasic and Cengic sold.

 3             What about these quantities?  Was that what they obtained before

 4     the war?  So were these weapons being sold during the war or prior to the

 5     war?

 6        A.   I'm sure the information is trustworthy and accurate.  The

 7     information comes from one of their documents that was signed by one of

 8     their own.  It's not just that people were saying that they were arming

 9     themselves; it was what was actually happening and all the facts point to

10     that conclusion.  Where did the Muslims get their weapons both in Foca

11     and in Gorazde?  It was an open secret in Foca and Ustikolina that the

12     mosque at Donje Polje where Sahinpasic had his warehouse was full of

13     weapons.  And it's true that rifles were being sold to the Muslims and

14     they would pay in excess of 1.000 German marks per piece.  All the Serbs

15     and all the Muslims in that area knew that; it was no secret at all.

16        Q.   The previous document P2642 -- no, actually, it's the present

17     document not the previous one.  Is it correct that ...

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, just for your benefit I'm asking this.

19     This document has already been admitted into evidence and the witness

20     does not know specifics based upon his experience.  What would you get

21     from this witness?

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I just wanted to

23     know whether the document was accurate in this witness's experience.

24     He [indiscernible] addressed that and the OTP tried to challenge that, so

25     that's why I included that in my re-examination.  Nevertheless, I am now

Page 32358

 1     wrapping up and I would like to thank the witness for his evidence here.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Unless my colleagues have a question for you,

 3     Mr. Pljevaljcic, that concludes your evidence.  On behalf of the Chamber

 4     I would like to thank you for your coming to The Hague to give it.  Now

 5     you're free to go.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

 7                           [The witness withdrew]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Is the next witness ready?

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Do you think it's worth starting in

11     the remaining 15 minutes?  That's up for you to decide of course.

12             JUDGE KWON:  By all means, Mr. Karadzic.

13                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

14                           [The witness entered court]

15             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness make the solemn declaration,

16     please.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

18     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19                           WITNESS:  SLAVKO MIJANOVIC

20                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

21             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon, Mijanovic.  Please take a seat and

22     make yourself comfortable.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

24                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Mijanovic.

Page 32359

 1        A.   Good afternoon to you as well, Mr. President.  I wish you all the

 2     best.

 3        Q.   Can we please both make pauses between our questions and answers

 4     in order to give the interpreters a chance to catch up and to make sure

 5     everything was accurately recorded.  Did you make a statement to my

 6     Defence team?

 7        A.   Yes, I did.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have 1D07029 in

 9     e-court.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Do you have that in front of you, sir?

12        A.   Yes, I do.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Did you read the statement and sign it?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Is the statement an accurate reflection of your

16     words?

17        A.   Yes, it is, Mr. President.

18        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to ask you all the same questions today

19     that you were asked during the interview for the statement, would your

20     answers essentially remain the same?

21        A.   Essentially, yes.

22        Q.   Thank you.  I will now -- or rather, I will be tendering this

23     statement summary under 92 ter.

24             JUDGE KWON:  I take it there's no associated exhibits,

25     Mr. Robinson?

Page 32360

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct, Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Any objection, Ms. Gustafson?

 3             MS. GUSTAFSON:  No, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 5             We'll receive this.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D2773, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But can we please keep this in

 9     e-court because I will have a question later on to clarify something.  I

10     will be reading out the summary in English now.

11             [In English] Slavko Mijanovic was born in Ulog, Kalinovik

12     municipality, BH.  He completed his secondary education and graduated

13     from at faculty of architecture and urbanism in Sarajevo.  After the

14     multi-party elections in BH in the autumn of 1990, he was appointed

15     deputy secretary to the secretariat for urban planning, housing and

16     public utilities in Novi Grad municipality in Sarajevo.

17             Slavko Mijanovic noticed at the beginning of April 1992 the

18     entrance to the municipal building in Novi Grad was guarded

19     around-the-clock by armed Muslim reserve policemen.  He was aware that he

20     was being followed by the Muslim security services because he was a Serb

21     and although he made a complaint about this, nothing changed.  The

22     security situation deteriorated and at the end of April Slavko Mijanovic

23     resigned from his job, moved from his flat, and relocated his family to

24     Montenegro and moved himself to Ilidza, neighbouring municipality, to

25     work at the war time commission.

Page 32361

 1             Serbian and non-Serbian residents left Ilidza and many Serbian

 2     refugees moved to the territory from Muslim-controlled areas of Sarajevo.

 3     This rapid movement of people meant it was necessary to place the

 4     responsibility of flats and accommodation under the control of the

 5     municipality.  The Ilidza authorities did not expel non-Serbs.  They

 6     moved out of their own accord and some remained in Ilidza throughout the

 7     war.  In July 1992 a commission for the distribution of flats for

 8     temporary use was founded and rules of procedure were adopted in relation

 9     to the housing situation.  The commission compiled a priority list

10     pursuant to the rules and written submissions received.  The priorities

11     set out in the rules were respected and adhered to.  The decisions

12     assigning flats for temporary use contained clauses not allowing the

13     tenant to acquire ownership of the flat and placing a duty on the tenant

14     to care for the flat and the property inside.

15             The commission encountered considerable difficulties with the

16     work it carried out due to the constant war operations, local residents

17     unlawfully taking occupancy of abandoned flats or temporary residents

18     stealing property.

19             Ilidza maintained contact with the authorities and organs of

20     Republika Srpska during the war and no instructions or orders were issued

21     by the authorities to expel or carry out ethnic cleansing of the Muslims

22     or any other non-Serb population in the territory or to limit or remove a

23     person's human rights and freedoms or carry out any other inhumane

24     conduct.

25             And that would be the summary.

Page 32362

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mr. Mijanovic, I would like to ask you something about

 3     paragraph 14 on page 3 of your statement.  Perhaps we can look at it in

 4     e-court.  I know, but I don't know if it's clear to the others, in

 5     paragraph you say in the last sentence:

 6             "Gun-shots could often be heard from the settlements of Mojmilo,

 7     Boljakov Potok, and Buca Potok during the night."

 8             So this is before the war broke out in the course of 1991.  Whose

 9     settlements are these?

10        A.   These are majority Muslim settlements, Bosniak settlements.  I

11     don't know anymore which term to use.

12        Q.   Thank you.  I don't have any more questions for you at this

13     point, sir.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

15             Mr. Mijanovic, your evidence in chief in this case has been

16     admitted in writing and you will be now cross-examined by the member of

17     the Office of the Prosecutor.

18             Yes, Ms. Gustafson, you have about ten minutes.

19             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE KWON:  For today.

21             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Right.

22                           Cross-examination by Ms. Gustafson:

23        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Mijanovic.

24        A.   Good afternoon and all the best to you.

25        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to also thank you for agreeing to meet with

Page 32363

 1     the Prosecution yesterday and I'd like to start by just confirming some

 2     of the things that you said yesterday in the presence of myself and an

 3     investigator from the Office of the Prosecution.  The first matters

 4     relate to paragraph 4 of your statement, where you explain that at the

 5     end of April 1992 you went to Ilidza and provided security for the

 6     municipal building where the Crisis Staff and the military command had

 7     their offices.  And I'd like to clarify that your role at the municipal

 8     building was, in fact, to call people to meetings of the Crisis Staff

 9     essentially; is that correct?

10        A.   It is correct that I did not secure the building but was on duty

11     in the building, on call next to the telephone on duty there.  I picked

12     up the phone and as per the orders of the representatives of the

13     Crisis Staff or the war commissioner office I scheduled meetings of the

14     war commission.

15        Q.   And the person from the Crisis Staff who was in general giving

16     you these orders to schedule meetings was Mr. Prstojevic; right?

17        A.   That is correct.

18        Q.   And you also clarified yesterday that you personally did not

19     attend any meetings of the Ilidza Crisis Staff or Ilidza military

20     command; is that right?

21        A.   That is correct.

22        Q.   And you also clarified that you didn't take part in any combat

23     operations and had no role in co-ordinating or commanding any police or

24     military operations in Ilidza; is that right?

25        A.   I was never militarily engaged during the war.

Page 32364

 1        Q.   And you confirmed that Mr. Prstojevic remained the president of

 2     Ilidza municipality throughout the war and for a period of time after the

 3     end of the war; is that right?

 4        A.   That is correct.

 5        Q.   Okay.  And now I'd like to turn to paragraph 6 of your statement

 6     where you claim that the authorities of the Serbian municipality of

 7     Ilidza and their organs did not expel non-Serbs and that they moved out

 8     of their own accord and in an unorganised manner.  And in that respect

 9     I'd like to go to P2308, please.  This is a report from the

10     20th of September, 1993, from the Ilidza public security station to the

11     RS Ministry of Internal Affairs and the security services centre

12     Sarajevo.  And if we could turn to page 2 in both languages.  The second

13     full paragraph it states that at the beginning of 1991 during illegal

14     meetings organised by Tomislav Kovac, who was then the commander of the

15     Ilidza public security station, policemen of Serbian nationality were

16     informed that the war option for realisation of national interests was

17     being increasingly promoted.  A few lines down it says that it was also

18     agreed that intense activity should be undertaken to arm citizens of

19     Serbian nationality and armament was transported from Ravna Romanija,

20     Pale, Sokolac, Kalinovik, the village of Nedavici, Trnovo,

21     Torsici [phoen], Hadzici, Jusuf Jonlandzic [phoen] Barracks, Lukavica,

22     and Nedzarici.

23             First, were you aware of these illegal meetings organised by

24     Mr. Kovac or these intense arming activities of Serbs referred to in this

25     report?

Page 32365

 1        A.   In early 1991, as it states here, I was in the Novi Grad

 2     municipality not in the Ilidza municipality area, so I couldn't have

 3     known even if this was so.

 4        Q.   Okay.  And if we could go to the next page in both languages.

 5     And now they're talking about activities in 1992 and the second-last

 6     paragraph states:

 7             "All detained Muslims were thoroughly interrogated in order to

 8     extract useful information regarding their intentions.  Repressive

 9     measures undertaken against them for various reasons resulted in them

10     increasingly fleeing and moving out of this territory."

11             Now, in relation to your claims about the manner in which Muslims

12     left the territory of Ilidza, were you aware of the fact that the Ilidza

13     SJB was taking repressive measures against Muslims resulting in them

14     increasingly fleeing and moving out of the territory?

15        A.   The Malaleja [phoen] command of the Crisis Staff or of the war

16     commission, however you want to refer to it, I got there in mid-May and

17     then the tram were still -- the trams were still running between the

18     Ilidza and Bascarsija stops during that period.  And anybody who wanted

19     to move out could have done so.  People could also move in to Ilidza if

20     they wanted.  And then sometime in mid-May this was not possible anymore

21     because the town was sealed and the inside, meaning that the territory or

22     actually the --

23        Q.   [Previous translation continues]...

24        A.   -- federal part or the Muslims -- yes?

25        Q.   I'm sorry to interrupt you but your answer is not really

Page 32366

 1     responsive to my question which was simply whether or not you were aware

 2     of the fact that the Ilidza SJB was taking repressive measures against

 3     detained Muslims resulting in them freeing from the territory?

 4        A.   No, I didn't know that.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Should I stop there, Your Honour?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mijanovic, the Chamber has another matter to

 8     deal with for today, so we'll adjourn for today for the purpose of your

 9     testimony.  We'll continue tomorrow.

10             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

11             JUDGE KWON:  You are advised not to discuss with anybody else

12     about your testimony.  Do you understand that, sir?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Mijanovic.  You may be excused.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17             JUDGE KWON:  Probably before going into private session I think I

18     can safely note this.  The Chamber is seized of certain confidential

19     motion, and in order to resolve the issue in an efficient and expeditious

20     way, the Chamber has invited an attorney for a witness and the

21     representative of the Registrar.  So could those two persons introduce

22     themselves for record.

23             MR. BOURGON:  Good afternoon, Mr. President.  Stephane Bourgon

24     representing the witness Dragomir Milosevic.  Thank you, Mr. President.

25             MS. OSURE:  Good afternoon, Mr. President.  Anna Osure

Page 32367

 1     representing the Deputy Registrar and the Registrar.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 3             The Chamber will go into private session for the remainder of

 4     this debate.

 5                           [Private session]

 6   (redacted)

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10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

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Page 32368











11  Pages 32368-32381 redacted.  Private session.















Page 32382

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  The hearing is adjourned.

 4                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.51 p.m.,

 5                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 22nd day of

 6                           January, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.