Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 34440

 1                           Thursday, 28 February 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             Would the witness make the solemn declaration, please.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 9     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10                           WITNESS:  NOVICA ANDRIC

11                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Andric.  Please be seated and make

13     yourself comfortable.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Before you commence your evidence, Mr. Andric, I

16     must draw your attention to a certain Rule of Procedure and Evidence here

17     at the International Tribunal, that is, Rule 90(E).  Under this Rule you

18     may object to answering any question from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecution,

19     or even from the Judges if you believe that your answer might incriminate

20     you in a criminal offence.  In this context, "incriminate" means saying

21     something that might amount to an admission of guilt for a criminal

22     offence or saying something that might provide evidence that you might

23     have committed a criminal offence.  However, should you think that an

24     answer might incriminate you and, as a consequence, you refuse to answer

25     the question, I must let you know that the Tribunal has the power to

Page 34441

 1     compel you to answer the question.  But in that situation, the Tribunal

 2     would ensure that your testimony compelled under such circumstances would

 3     not be used in any case that might be laid against you for any offence

 4     save and except the offence of giving false testimony.  Do you understand

 5     what I have just told you?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Andric.

 8             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Excellencies.

10     Welcome, Judge Lattanzi, Your Excellency.  Good morning to all.

11                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Andric.

13        A.   Good morning.

14        Q.   Mr. Andric, did you give my Defence team a statement?

15        A.   Yes.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have in e-court

17     1D7813.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Do you see that statement of yours in front of you on the screen?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Please, both you and I should pause between question and answer

22     and we should speak slowly so that everything can be recorded in the

23     transcript and that the interpreters can interpret everything that we

24     say.  Did you read and sign this statement?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 34442

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Could we please take a look at the last page now.

 2     Could the witness identify his signature.  Is that your signature?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Did this statement faithfully reflect what you said

 5     to the Defence team in response to their questions?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to put the same questions to you today,

 8     would your answers basically be the same?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I'd like to

12     tender this 92 ter package.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson.

14             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. President.  There are eight

15     exhibits and we would ask that they be added to our 65 ter list, as they

16     were not -- we hadn't interviewed this witness as of the time we filed

17     that list.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Did you say "eight"?

19             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct -- actually seven.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

21             Any objections, Mr. Zec?

22             MR. ZEC:  No objections, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE KWON:  We'll admit them, but as to the photographs referred

24     to in para 13 I would like to ask the accused to clarify with the witness

25     when these pictures were taken and whether it -- and what part has been

Page 34443

 1     changed.

 2             We'll give the numbers for the statement as well as the

 3     associated exhibits.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, the statement 65 ter 1D7813 will be

 5     Exhibit D3038, and the seven exhibits will be Exhibits D3039 through

 6     Exhibit D3045 respectively.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 8             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Now I'm going to read

10     out the summary of Mr. Novica Andric's statement in the English language.

11             [In English] Novica Andric was born on 28th of May, 1962, in

12     Kosovo village, Rogatica municipality.  He finished his primary school in

13     Rogatica and there he continued with secondary school for car mechanics,

14     and then he finished the traffic and transport technical school in

15     Gorazde.  In 1983 he went to Kraljevo to do his military service in the

16     JNA in a military traffic police unit.

17             Novica Andric noticed that after the establishment of national

18     parties things at the political, economic, social, and national level

19     suddenly changed and the situation rapidly began to deteriorate.  The

20     SDA, Muslim party, was formed in the first half of 1990 and Mr. Andric

21     recalls that the SDS was not formed until much later in early September

22     concerning Rogatica municipality.  The first illegal armed unit in the

23     eastern part of Bosnia was formed in Pokrivenik, a Muslim-inhabited

24     village, in late 1990 into early 1991.

25             Many Serbs expected that this situation would be resolved;

Page 34444

 1     however, these hopes only lasted until the referendum on the secession of

 2     Bosnia and Herzegovina from Yugoslavia.  After this referendum,

 3     nationalism increased and it was apparent to Mr. Novica Andric that

 4     Serbs, Croats, and Muslims could no longer live together in harmony.

 5     Many Muslims said that Bosnia belonged to them and that they were going

 6     to have it.

 7             In Rogatica there was a total distrust among the people, and as a

 8     precaution the Serbs started organising village guards at night using

 9     hunting weapons which they legally possessed.  This was done because from

10     the beginning of the second half of 1991 volleys from automatic weapons

11     could often be heard from Muslim villages.

12             Novica Andric joined the Serbian Territorial Defence around

13     20th of April, 1992, and was tasked with protecting the villages that

14     faced the Muslim villages as these villages had armed very early and

15     possessed all kind of infantry weapons.  At around the same time the

16     weapons of the former Rogatica Territorial Defence were distributed to

17     the Territorial Defence.  All the weapons kept -- were kept in the JNA

18     depots for safety reasons.  The Territorial Defence was not armed by the

19     JNA, that merely stored their weapons in the depots.

20             From the beginning of May 1992 there were constant provocations

21     from the Muslim villages.  They often fired at the Serbian homes using

22     infantry weapons, anti-aircraft machine-guns, and mortars.  A request was

23     made by the Serbian Territorial Defence that the weapons be handed over

24     and the fighters would be guaranteed peace and security; however,

25     Mr. Alajbegovic, the leader of the Muslim units, refused and continued

Page 34445

 1     with the provocations.  The Territorial Defence command made a decision

 2     to carry out an attack on the Muslim strongholds in Muslim villages;

 3     however, the Serbs from the neighbouring hamlets warned the Muslims and

 4     they withdrew.

 5             When the Serbian Territorial Defence entered Madjer village,

 6     Fejzo Hurko was captured along with his wife and son and taken to

 7     Novica Andric's village and told to go to the garage next to his house.

 8     They were provided with shelter so that nothing would happen to them.

 9     They only stayed there for 15 to 20 minutes before they were taken to the

10     school centre to be housed.  During the period of time that they spent in

11     the garage, nobody maltreated them or tortured them.

12             Novica Andric is aware that his father, Miodrag, was captured by

13     the Muslims on his way home from work and taken to prison.  He was then

14     sentenced to 20 years in prison for the alleged killings of the three

15     Muslims and the alleged incident in the garage.  He was acquitted after

16     the successful appeal.

17             In relation to the secondary school centre, Novica Andric was

18     aware that this was a holding centre for all families leaving the town

19     centre, both Muslims and Serb families stayed there together.  As

20     Novica Andric passed the centre, he saw between 25 to 30 men playing

21     five-a-side football.

22             Novica Andric was re-called to the line of defence as a driver,

23     and in the course of his job he visited Rasadnik detention facility.  He

24     has no knowledge that detainees were subjected to physical torture whilst

25     staying at the facility.  Both Serbs and Muslim detainees were held at

Page 34446

 1     Rasadnik.  During his first few visits to the facility he personally saw

 2     that the detainees were given the same food that the detention facility

 3     staff and the soldiers of the brigade ate.  He was aware that the

 4     detainees kept cows for food and assisted in chopping wood for working --

 5     and working in the barn.

 6             And that would be the summary, and as you decided I would like to

 7     call these photo -- did I understand well?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Before doing so.

 9             Yes, Mr. Zec.

10             MR. ZEC:  Mr. President, I know that Karadzic's summary is not

11     evidence, but he said that case against witness's father included

12     incident in the garage, but judgement that will be in evidence is not

13     included in that judgement, only the crime of killing civilians in this

14     village Bjelogorci in June 1992.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, do you agree with Mr. Zec's comment?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I know that Mico Andric, the father

17     of Novica Andric, was accused and sentenced for the garage, but later on

18     he was acquitted.  However, I have not studied the judgement.  I'll

19     ask --

20             JUDGE KWON:  After having seen the photo, why don't we take a

21     look at the judgement.

22             Please proceed.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'd like to call up ...

24                           [Defence counsel confer]

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have in e-court

Page 34447

 1     1D12014.  Thank you.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Could you please tell us what this photograph shows and when it

 4     was taken?

 5        A.   The photograph was taken during the reconstruction of what

 6     happened in the village of Bjelogorci.  This is the garage where false

 7     witnesses said that they had been mistreated.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Are there any significant changes in terms of what

 9     this garage looks like compared to the time about which these witnesses

10     testified?

11        A.   No changes.  There was just a regular garage door, and the garage

12     was used and is used to this day as a summer kitchen.

13        Q.   Thank you.  When did that happen?  What time did they mention?

14        A.   End of May.

15        Q.   End of May?

16        A.   End of May.

17        Q.   At that time was the summer kitchen already being used?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Were they served anything and where was that prepared?

20        A.   They were served coffee in this summer kitchen that was there

21     then and is there to this day, and they were kept there only for

22     15 hours [as interpreted] until vehicles came from Rogatica which is 5

23     kilometres away from the village.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

25     be asked to speak closer to the microphone.

Page 34448

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 12015, could we please have that

 2     document.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Just, could you remind me of the time of

 4     reconstruction, Mr. Andric?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The time of reconstruction was the

 6     month of May or June, I think.  They were roughly trying to look at the

 7     period when that had actually happened.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  What year, Mr. Andric?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was 1999, 8 or 9 before

10     the acquittal, the judgement of acquittal.  All international

11     institutions were present there, all institutions that were present in

12     Bosnia and Herzegovina then.

13             JUDGE KWON:  As the witness testified, if there were no serious

14     changes, you can skip the photos and move on to your next topic.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Whose false testimony was not accepted?  Which testimony was

18     rejected when your father was acquitted?

19        A.   Omanovic Hamdija's testimony was rejected and Hamdija's brother's

20     testimony and Sefik Hurko, father's name Fejzo.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

22     speak into the microphone.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

24             When you speak, could you kindly speak to the microphone so that

25     the interpreters could hear you well.

Page 34449

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, yes, yes.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Please, let us just clarify this:  Which person by the last name

 4     of Hurko testified and whose testimony was rejected?

 5        A.   Sefik Hurko, he gave false testimony and the cantonal court in

 6     Sarajevo assessed that these were false statements and that resulted in

 7     the judgement of acquittal later, the one that is presented here.

 8        Q.   What about his father, did he testify?

 9        A.   His father testified in Sarajevo, over there.  He did not testify

10     at this trial of Miodrag Andric, and their statements differed.

11        Q.   Which one of the two was in the garage during those 20 minutes?

12        A.   Hurko Sefik, Hurko Fejzo, and Fejzo's wife.  That was very brief,

13     until the vehicle came for them, Ljubomir Cerovic, the then-assistant for

14     security.

15        Q.   Could you help us clarify this:  Your father, was he accused for

16     the garage and was the garage included in this judgement of acquittal?

17        A.   Yes, he had been convicted because of the alleged garage and the

18     alleged killing of civilians.  After the reconstruction and after the

19     witnesses were heard again, it was proven that the testimony provided had

20     been false.

21        Q.   And what does the judgement of acquittal refer to?

22        A.   The garage and the killing of three civilians, the alleged

23     killing of three civilians.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If the Trial Chamber is satisfied,

Page 34450

 1     I have no further questions at this point in time.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  I asked you to check with the -- if the judgement

 3     refers to the garage part as well.  Is there a way to check it now?

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  Actually, Mr. President, I'm reading it as we

 5     speak and it appears to have dealing with the three -- the killing of

 6     three civilians, but I'm not all the way through it, but the -- in the

 7     findings themselves he's actually acquitted of the killings of three

 8     civilians.  I don't see any reference to the garage in the findings, but

 9     I'm in the process of looking at the statement of reasons.

10             JUDGE KWON:  So you agree with Mr. Zec?

11             MR. ROBINSON:  So far as I've been able to see, yes.  I think

12     that this could be a subject of cross-examination since the witness has

13     given testimony on this subject.

14             JUDGE KWON:  But given that Mr. Karadzic made that presentation,

15     I'd like to hear confirmation that he agrees with Mr. Zec.  Otherwise he

16     has to go to -- go through the judgement and tell us what part refers to

17     garage.

18             MR. ROBINSON:  Okay.  Well, it's an 18-page judgement, so would

19     you like to take maybe a five- or ten-minute break so he can read it and

20     satisfy himself what the situation is?

21             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber has no difficulty with it, but it will

22     go to the Defence time.  The Chamber will rise for five minutes.

23                           --- Break taken at 9.27 a.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 9.42 a.m.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

Page 34451

 1             Mr. Karadzic, have you done the reading?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, and we have established what

 3     it's about.  Can we call up D3043 in e-court, please, the basic court

 4     decision of the cantonal court in Sarajevo.  Can we look at the following

 5     page, please.  In the statement of reasons -- and this is the third page

 6     in English - in the statement of reasons it says that, it's the fifth or

 7     the sixth line, it says:

 8             "...  the Deputy Cantonal Prosecutor partially modified the

 9     indictment at the hearing by indicting the accused Miodrag Andric for the

10     same crime with a partially modified factual description ..." and so on

11     and so forth.

12             Can we now look at page 8 in e-court, please.  It's Serbian

13     page 5 and the English page 8.

14             "Sefik Hurko...," here this is the second paragraph in the

15     middle:

16             "Sefik Hurko stated that he was held captive in the garage of the

17     accused ..."

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Now, Mr. Andric, are you able to tell us if your father was

20     sentenced for the garage by the lower court?

21        A.   [No interpretation]

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to repeat his

23     answer.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Andric, because you overlapped with the

25     interpretation, you were not heard by the interpreters.  Please repeat

Page 34452

 1     your answer and in the future please put a pause before you start

 2     answering the question.  Yes.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Throughout the trial the garage was

 4     mentioned and that was part of the whole case.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And do you know in what sense the prosecutor or how

 7     the prosecutor amended the indictment during the process?

 8             MR. ZEC:  Mr. President, this is speculation.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Zec.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I asked him whether he knew.  I

11     didn't ask him to speculate.  It says here that it was amended and there

12     is no evidence that he was convicted.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

14             Yes, Mr. Zec.

15             MR. ZEC:  Mr. Karadzic invites the witness to comment what

16     prosecutor in that case was changing in the indictment or whatever

17     changes he made.  That's just not appropriate.

18             JUDGE KWON:  I understood the question to be asking the witness

19     whether he knew whether the prosecutor -- the indictment had been

20     amended.  I think the witness can answer.

21             Yes, if you can answer, Mr. Andric.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that they dropped the

23     garage in the amendment.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             Your Excellencies, the lower court does not mention it as a part

Page 34453

 1     of the conviction, so that's why it was not mentioned in the appeal.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Mr. Andric, was your father found guilty of anything?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  So that's it for your examination-in-chief?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  As for the objection to the

 8     judgement, it's a fact that he was not convicted for the garage in the

 9     lower court decision, so that's why there was no mention of it by the

10     Defence or the Prosecution.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Thank you.

12             As you have noted, Mr. Andric, your evidence in chief in this

13     case has been admitted in writing, i.e., through your statement in lieu

14     of your oral testimony.  Now you will be cross-examined by the

15     Prosecutor, representative of the Office of the Prosecutor, Mr. Zec.

16             MR. ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

17                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zec:

18        Q.   Good morning to you, Mr. Andric.

19        A.   Good morning.

20        Q.   I think it's already clear, but let me ask you first a couple of

21     background questions.  Your father's name is Miodrag Andric, also known

22     as Mico; is it correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Your family house is in the village of Kosovo,

25     Rogatica municipality; this is correct, isn't it?

Page 34454

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Next to your family house is the garage where Sefik Hurko,

 3     Fejzo Hurko, Izeta Hurko, and Abdulah Hurko were held on or about

 4     14 August 1992.  This is correct?  Is it correct that these people were

 5     held?

 6        A.   No.  It was like this:  They were in the garage.  They were not

 7     detained there.  They were staying there.  The garage was not locked

 8     while they were there, and Sefik, Fejzo Hurko -- Sefik Hurko,

 9     Fejzo Hurko, and his wife, Izeta, were there, the three of them.  The

10     fourth person was not there, the fourth person that you mentioned.

11        Q.   Abdulah Hurko is missing since, so I take it you don't know

12     anything about his whereabouts?

13        A.   No, the fourth person was not brought there.  That person was not

14     there.  I don't know whether that person died during the counter-attack

15     of the forces that were up there.  I'm not going into that.  These three

16     people, however, were brought to the garage.  They were not locked in

17     there.  The garage was open throughout that whole time and they stayed

18     there briefly.

19        Q.   Among the soldiers who held the Hurko family members were

20     Stojan Perkovic; Brane Krsmanovic; Dragomir Abazovic, also known as

21     Pidje; Danko Neric; and Rajko Kusic.  This is correct, is it?

22        A.   There was a number of persons, Rajko Kusic, Stojan Perkovic,

23     Krsmanovic, Abazovic; that's it.  They did not detain them.  They were

24     talking to them.

25        Q.   The Hurko family members were held in your garage against their

Page 34455

 1     will and they were not allowed to leave; this is correct, isn't it?

 2             JUDGE KWON:  I think I notice an issue of translation.  You are

 3     saying "being held," and witness is rebutting or answering "they were not

 4     detained."

 5             MR. ZEC:  I have noted the same issue, Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please bear that in mind.  Please continue.

 7             MR. ZEC:

 8        Q.   Mr. Andric, can you answer my last question or do I have to

 9     repeat?

10        A.   Could you please repeat it.

11        Q.   The Hurko family members, they were held in your garage against

12     their will and they were not allowed to leave, isn't it?

13        A.   They were not being held after being captured, after the

14     counter-attack by the Serbian forces.  A pistol and two boxes of bullets

15     of 70 pieces each were found on them, so they were armed during capture

16     and they were taken to Rogatica.  They were placed there to prevent --

17     among the soldiers there were already people -- those people whose

18     relatives had died.  So it was a move to prevent some kind of revenge on

19     them.  So they were sheltered there until the vehicle arrived that was

20     going to take them to Rogatica.

21        Q.   Mr. Andric, I notice that you're repeating a lot of facts that

22     you --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Let me intervene.

24             The question was, Mr. Andric, whether they were allowed to leave

25     when they stayed in your garage.

Page 34456

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were allowed to leave, but

 2     they had nowhere to go because the village was already under attack.

 3     They were safer there than in the zone of -- in the combat zone.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Back to you, Mr. Zec.

 5             MR. ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6        Q.   Sefik, Fejzo, and Abdulah, they were beaten and tortured by the

 7     soldiers who held them in your garage; this is correct, isn't it?

 8        A.   No.  I said that this fourth person, Abdulah, was not brought to

 9     the garage at all.  Throughout that whole time when they were there, I

10     was present and I state with certainty that there was no abuse or

11     mistreatment.

12        Q.   In 2009 Stojan Perkovic pled guilty before the court of BiH to

13     crimes committed in Rogatica, including those committed in your garage;

14     do you know this?

15        A.   I know that he's serving his sentence, but I don't know what acts

16     he was sentenced for.

17        Q.   The judgement is in evidence in this case, and it is D01665.

18     But, Mr. Andric, the reality is that Stojan Perkovic pled guilty to and

19     was convicted of this crime that you say never happened; right?

20        A.   There was no mistreatment.  I don't know what he admitted to in

21     the indictment or of being charged with.  I'm not aware that there was

22     any mistreatment in that garage.  There is only one truth.  I don't know

23     of any other truth, and the truth is as I stated.  I'm ready to take the

24     lie-detector test or any other test.  If the side that is giving false

25     statements is also prepared to submit themselves to the same test, then

Page 34457

 1     we will see what the outcome is.

 2        Q.   Just to be clear, I take that you're aware that Sefik Hurko was

 3     held in your garage again the day after, which would be 15th August 1992.

 4     Are you aware of this?

 5        A.   No.  After he was taken away then he did not return to the garage

 6     anymore.  These are false statements.

 7        Q.   You told us that you were a driver policeman in the military

 8     police of the Rogatica Brigade.  Commander of the brigade was

 9     Rajko Kusic; this is correct, isn't it?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Ljubomir Cerovic that you referred to in your statement, he was

12     head of the security and intelligence department until

13     30th November 1992, when he lost his life.  After Cerovic it was

14     Zoran Carkic who became new head of the security and intelligence

15     department; this is correct, isn't it?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Your immediate superior in the military police unit was

18     Radenko Ilic, was he?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   You told us in your statement that you had visited Rasadnik

21     several times in the course of your duties.  It is correct, isn't it,

22     that Muslim civilians were detained at Rasadnik, including old people and

23     women?

24        A.   Other than Rasadnik and the military detention, there was the

25     reception centre located in the secondary school centre.  So it was

Page 34458

 1     closed later, but they were not detained -- the centre closed once the

 2     school began to operate, so they were not detained in the same place

 3     where these other military prisoners were held but in a facility next to

 4     it.

 5             THE ACCUSED:  [No interpretation]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  We cannot distinguish -- no, your words were not

 7     interpreted at all, you just overlapped while the interpretation was

 8     going on.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.  In line 2, the

10     witness said that besides the military detention there was also a

11     reception centre which was relocated from the school once the school

12     began to work.  [In English] Not located in, relocated from.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             Please continue, Mr. Zec.

15             MR. ZEC:  Can we have 65 ter 24479.

16        Q.   Mr. Andric, in front of you there will be a list of war prisoners

17     sent by the Drina Corps command to the command of the

18     4th Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade and to Lieutenant-Colonel Cerovic 1st

19     February 1993.  If you look at the title of the document, there is a

20     reference to Vili.  This Chamber has received evidence that "Vili" is a

21     nickname of Vinko Bojic who was warden of Rasadnik.  In other words,

22     Vili, the Vili camp, is Rasadnik; this is correct, isn't it?

23        A.   It's not a camp.  It was a reception centre up there.  As far as

24     the military remand prison is concerned, it was called the military

25     remand prison or detention unit.  Nobody called it Rasadnik.

Page 34459

 1        Q.   My question was:  The Vili camp is referenced here in this

 2     document.  This is Rasadnik; correct?

 3        A.   That camp - in fact, not camp but centre - was called Rasadnik,

 4     not Vili.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Does the word in B/C/S "logoru" mean "camp"?

 6             Yes, Mr. Zec?  Can I hear from the interpreters.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Yes it does, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 9             Please continue, Mr. Zec.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In line 2 it was said, "Nobody

11     called Rasadnik Vili."  Line 2 on page 20.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Aha.

13             Did you say that?  Do you confirm that, Mr. Andric?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please repeat the

15     question?

16             JUDGE KWON:  No.  What Mr. Karadzic has just said, you told us

17     that Rasadnik was never called as Vili.  Do you confirm having said that,

18     Mr. Andric?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Zec.

21             MR. ZEC:

22        Q.   Do you accept -- do you confirm that Vinko Bojic was also known

23     as Vili and Vinko Bojic was warden of Rasadnik?  Do you confirm that?

24        A.   Yes.  Yes.

25        Q.   Well, let's have a look at this list of names --

Page 34460

 1             MR. ZEC:  And, Mr. President, I referred earlier to P03267,

 2     page 7, when I said that you received evidence about Vinko Bojic and his

 3     nickname Vili.

 4        Q.   So, Mr. Andric, if you look at the list of names, there's a name

 5     of Edina Musovic under item number 1.  Edina is a Muslim female name,

 6     isn't it?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Edina was born in 1972.  Under item number 2 there's a name

 9     Biba Kustura.  Biba is a Muslim female name, isn't it?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Biba was born in 1928.  Under number 3 is Nura Kustura.  Nura is

12     a Muslim female name, isn't it?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Nura was born in 1930.  Under item number 4 it says here Hanua

15     Kustura.  This name also appears in another document that I'm going to

16     show to you after.  It says there Hanuma Kustura, with m.  Hanuma is an

17     old-fashioned Muslim name, isn't it?

18        A.   Yes, it is.

19        Q.   And Hanuma was born in 1892, which means that at the time of her

20     detention at Vili's, or Rasadnik, she was 101 years old, Mr. Andric,

21     isn't it?

22        A.   According to this, yes, but I had no insight into who was there

23     because it was not my job to go into those buildings.  My job was to deal

24     with soldiers who somehow violated military discipline.  I cannot confirm

25     who was there.

Page 34461

 1        Q.   I just read to you first four names, all female names.  In fact,

 2     they appear all the way down to number 17 as well as the name item 41,

 3     next page on this list.  The reality is, Mr. Andric, that the Muslim

 4     civilians were detained at Rasadnik, isn't it?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Items 32 to 35 on this list are the name of Sefik Hurko,

 7     Mahir Jasarevic, Fejzo Hurko, and Alija Isakovic, whose statements you

 8     have reviewed and they all say they were detained in Rasadnik; this is

 9     correct, isn't it?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. ZEC:  Mr. President, I tender this document.

12             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll admit it.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6155, Your Honours.

15             MR. ZEC:  Can I have P06153.

16        Q.   Mr. Andric, in front of you there will be a list of detained

17     persons dated 10 April, 1993.  This list was sent by the Drina Corps

18     command Lieutenant-Colonel Slobodan Cerovic, who we saw a moment ago as a

19     receiver of this previous list.  Here Cerovic sends a list of detainees

20     to the command of the East Bosnia Corps and to the Ministry of

21     Justice and Administration, Slobodan Aviljas.  The names of Muslim

22     civilians that I read to you from the previous list also appear on this

23     list.  Can you see them?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Mahir Jasarevic, who I also mentioned, is item 32 which should be

Page 34462

 1     next page on this list.  Let's have a look at something that you have

 2     already seen in the statement of Mahir Jasarevic.  It's ID07602, in it

 3     page 4.  Mahir said that sometimes in summer 1993 Vinko Bojic,

 4     Zoran Carkic, and you, Novica Andric, packed him and other prisoners into

 5     a bus, including a pregnant woman, and took them to Zvornik.  Mr. Andric,

 6     the civilians were detained at Rasadnik and you know this because you

 7     drove a group of them to Zvornik?

 8        A.   That is correct.  That group was supposed to go to the Muslim

 9     territory because they had expressed their wish to go behind the lines to

10     the territory controlled by the army of their people.  Muslim authorities

11     obstructed that agreement to move them to the territory under their

12     control, and I believe after a day or two they were returned.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Just -- do you agree that they were detained in

14     Rasadnik before they were transferred to Zvornik?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was at the same time a reception

16     centre up there, the one that was moved from the school.  Maybe there

17     were some of them who were moved from the school.  I don't know about all

18     the people who were there.  I did not go inside to be able to confirm,

19     and I didn't know all these people personally.

20             MR. ZEC:

21        Q.   We are talking about the people that you drove to Zvornik.  They

22     were detained in Rasadnik, didn't they?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Mahir also said in his statement, same page, page 4, that women,

25     children, and old people from Satorovici, Berkovici, and other villages

Page 34463

 1     in Rogatica --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second --

 3             MR. ZEC:

 4        Q.   -- were detained at Rasadnik --

 5                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Do you want to upload the statement?

 7             MR. ZEC:  We can, Mr. President.  It's ID07602, page 4.

 8        Q.   And Mahir said there that women, children, and old people from

 9     Satorovici, Berkovici, and other villages in Rogatica were detained at

10     Rasadnik.  He said that two -- that two old women from Berkovici - Nura,

11     age 102, and Aisa, aged 100 - died after one year of detention.  This is

12     what was happening at Rasadnik, isn't it?

13        A.   I'm not aware of that.  It's possible, but I don't know.

14        Q.   Well, we can then call P0152 -- sorry, P06152 which is exhumation

15     report dated 4 November 1998, and I'll be looking at the part with --

16     should be English page 9, B/C/S page 7.  And that part of the exhumation

17     report refers to Rasadnik.  And according to this report, 14 bodies of 14

18     people were found exhumed from this location, from Rasadnik.  And item

19     number 11 is Hanka Kustura, born 1895.  Item 12, Sejfo Mirvic, 1948.

20     Next page is Aisa Osmanovic, born 1898, which means that she was 95 in

21     1993.  Halil Vatres born in 1928.

22             So the reality is, Mr. Andric, that a number of civilians died at

23     Rasadnik as a result of the severe conditions they were subjected to,

24     isn't it?

25        A.   I'm not aware of that, because as I said I came very rarely to

Page 34464

 1     Rasadnik.  I'm not aware of all the things that went on there.

 2        Q.   At the end of your statement you referred to the events after the

 3     fall of Zepa in 1995.  You talked about Ahmet Brgulja.  Let me ask you

 4     first about Avdo Palic.  You know who Avdo Palic was?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   The VRS captured Avdo Palic after the fall of Zepa and he was

 7     held in an apartment in Rogatica; this is correct, isn't it?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   The apartment was used by Zoran Carkic, which, in fact, belonged

10     to a Muslim from Rogatica; this is also correct, isn't it?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   You provided guards for the apartment.  You brought

13     Danko Frganja, Goran Ristanovic, and Slobodan Obrenovic to keep Palic

14     there, isn't it?

15        A.   They were brought to be with him while he stayed there.

16        Q.   Following the orders issued by the VRS Main Staff on

17     10 August 1995, you, Mr. Andric, and Zoran Carkic drove Avdo Palic from

18     Rogatica to a prison called Mlin near Bijeljina, didn't you?

19             THE ACCUSED:  The name of prison was not caught by --

20             MR. ZEC:  It's Mlin.  It's M-l-i-n.  Mlin, near Bijeljina.

21        Q.   So you drove Palic from Rogatica to Mlin, didn't you?

22        A.   Yes.

23             MR. ZEC:  Can we have 65 ter 24641.

24        Q.   In front of you there will be an order issued by Ljubisa Beara on

25     10 August 1995.  In paragraph 1 it refers to Atlantida to be transferred

Page 34465

 1     to Mlin, Bijeljina.  Paragraph 2 says that Captain Carkic arranged this

 2     with Major Kusic and personally carry out the task by announcing his

 3     arrival to Colonel Todorovic in the IBK and so on.  Mr. Andric, this is

 4     the order, this one on the screen.  This is the order pursuant to which

 5     you and Carkic drove Palic to Mlin, and Atlantida is Avdo Palic; correct?

 6        A.   I don't know what it's called, but it's true that we drove him

 7     there.

 8        Q.   Pursuant to the order of the VRS Main Staff; this is also

 9     correct, isn't it?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. ZEC:  Your Honours, I tender this document into evidence.

12             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll admit it.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6156, Your Honours.

15             MR. ZEC:

16        Q.   The reason for driving Palic to Mlin and keeping him in the

17     apartment before that was to hide him from public and the ICRC, wasn't

18     it?

19        A.   Keeping him in that apartment, he was provided better conditions

20     than other prisoners because he was a high-ranking officer.  That was the

21     reason.  But he was removed because there were troops whose family

22     members were killed in the attack at Bubanj Potok by forces led by

23     Avdo Palic.  There was a fear that the families might do something to

24     him.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In the transcript, line 23, a

Page 34466

 1     better translation would be "sheltered," not "removed."  And I don't

 2     think Bubanj Potok was mentioned.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  I think we can continue.

 4             MR. ZEC:

 5        Q.   The body of Avdo Palic was exhumed from a mass grave in Vragolovi

 6     which is 10 kilometres from the Rogatica town.  You know this, do you?

 7        A.   I don't know.

 8        Q.   Mr. Andric, who did it?  Who took Palic back from Mlin, kill him,

 9     and buried him at Vragolovi?

10        A.   I don't know about that.  I turned over Avdo Palic in Bijeljina

11     and I don't know what happened later.  There's probably documentation as

12     to who took him over there.  My role in this was the trip from Rogatica

13     to Bijeljina and leaving him in Bijeljina.

14        Q.   Let's focus now to Ahmet Brgulja.  Ahmet did not reach --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Could we take a look at the map,

16     Rogatica, Mlin, and the mass grave.

17             MR. ZEC:  Absolutely.  Can we have 65 ter 19145.  Mr. President,

18     this is a map from our court binder, and if we can zoom middle where

19     these triangles are.

20        Q.   So, Mr. Andric, can you see the triangle first from the bottom.

21     It says "the garage of Novica Andric."  Can you confirm this is

22     approximate location of your family house?  Then above you will be able

23     to see "Rogatica town" if you look at the map.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And to the left side from "Rogatica town" there is a star and it

Page 34467

 1     says "Vragolovi mosque," and above that it says "Vragolovi."

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And also above that on the right side it says "Rasadnik Farm."

 4     Can you confirm these are approximate locations of the -- of these

 5     locations that I just mentioned?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  How about Mlin, Mlin prison?

 8             MR. ZEC:  Yes, before that I would like to tender this map and I

 9     will call another map.

10             JUDGE KWON:  This is not in evidence yet?

11             MR. ZEC:  To my knowledge, no.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll -- any objection, Mr. --

13             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive it.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6157, Your Honours.

16             MR. ZEC:  Can we have P04675.

17                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll not broadcast this.  But why is it under

19     seal?

20             MR. ZEC:  I wasn't able to check that and thank you for reminding

21     me, Mr. President.

22             MR. ROBINSON:  I think I know why, but it's related to

23     intercepts, I think.

24             MR. ZEC:  Can we please zoom --

25             JUDGE KWON:  I think we could find a better one -- yes, but let's

Page 34468

 1     continue.

 2             MR. ZEC:  Mr. President, are you satisfied that you've found

 3     Vragolovi and Mlin?

 4        Q.   Mr. Andric, Mlin is near Bijeljina; correct?  The prison Mlin

 5     that you took Palic to, that's near Bijeljina?

 6        A.   It is specifically in Bijeljina, in the town.

 7        Q.   And in this map you see Bijeljina on the right side?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MR. ZEC:  Can we scroll down.  Still down.

10        Q.   And on the bottom of the map do you see Rogatica?

11        A.   Yes.

12             MR. ZEC:  Mr. President.

13             JUDGE KWON:  So how far is Mlin from Rogatica, roughly?  Is it

14     more than 100 kilometres away?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 200 kilometres.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  That's sufficient.

17             MR. ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

18        Q.   Let's focus now to Ahmet Brgulja.  Ahmet did not reach Kladanj,

19     as you suggested.  He was detained at Rasadnik, isn't it?

20        A.   I saw him at Boksanica.  He was going in the direction of

21     Kladanj.  I think he left.  I don't know if and when he returned from

22     there.  I saw him at Boksanica, as I stated, with the convoys on their

23     way to Kladanj.

24             MR. ZEC:  Can we have D02133.

25        Q.   Mr. Andric, in front of you will be a list of Muslim prisoners

Page 34469

 1     compiled by Zoran Carkic with whom you drove Palic to Mlin.  This list

 2     was authorised by Zdravko Tolimir.  It says:

 3             "Starting on 28th July 1995, the following citizens of Muslim

 4     ethnicity were accommodated at military reception centre in Rogatica."

 5             This military reception centre is Rasadnik; this is correct,

 6     isn't it?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Under items 1, 2, and 3 are the names of Zepa leaders,

 9     Mehmed Hajric, Hamdija Torlak, and Amir Imamovic.  Under item 17, next

10     page, is Ahmet Brgulja who you saw in Boksanica; correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Under 45 it says Atlantida, 1958, is in a different location,

13     safe location.  This was Avdo Palic that you and Carkic held in the

14     apartment; correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16             MR. ZEC:  I have nothing further, Mr. President.  Thank you very

17     much.

18        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Andric.

19        A.   You're welcome.

20             JUDGE KWON:  How much do you have for your re-examination,

21     Mr. Karadzic?

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Fifteen to 20 minutes, perhaps

23     shorter.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Then we'll take a break now for half an hour.  We'll

25     resume at 11.00.

Page 34470

 1                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Zec.

 4             MR. ZEC:  Mr. President, if you allow me another two minutes,

 5     because the issue is the case of this witness's father, Miodrag Andric.

 6     And as you remember, there was an issue what was included in that case.

 7     And Mr. Karadzic argued it was the garage incident was involved in that

 8     case, and Mr. Karadzic argued on page 12 on today's transcript that the

 9     prosecutor amended the indictment and that the garage was dropped.

10     Mr. Witness agreed to that.  So I have indictment.  It's 65 ter 24688.

11     So that's all I would like to --

12             JUDGE KWON:  So could you put that to the witness?

13             MR. ZEC:  Yes.

14             JUDGE KWON:  We don't -- we have it in e-court?

15             MR. ZEC:  We have it in e-court but we don't have translation

16     unfortunately.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mm-hmm.

18             MR. ZEC:

19        Q.   Mr. Andric, do you see on the first page the name of your father,

20     Miodrag Andric, also known as Mico?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   This is the indictment against your father.  It's

23     6 September 1996.  Do you confirm this is the indictment pursuant to

24     which your father was tried in Sarajevo?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 34471

 1        Q.   So I would kindly ask you to slowly read words after it says,

 2     "Dana 03 June 1996 ..." It says "1996," I believe it should say "1992,"

 3     but nevertheless can you slowly read this paragraph -- or rather, I'm

 4     sorry, perhaps you can read it for yourself and tell us whether -- what

 5     charges are here, what incidents.

 6        A.   This has to do with charges concerning the killing of three

 7     civilians; however, I believe that he had an amended indictment --

 8        Q.   [Overlapping speakers]

 9        A.   -- in which the garage was mentioned.

10        Q.   This is the indictment pursuant to which your father was tried

11     and judgement reflects this indictment.  There is no garage.  Do you

12     agree with that?

13             JUDGE KWON:  So the question is whether this is the indictment

14     which had been modified or -- your case is that this is the initial

15     indictment?

16             MR. ZEC:  Correct and the only indictment.

17             JUDGE KWON:  So could you ask that to the witness.

18             MR. ZEC:  Seems that he claims that the indictment was modified.

19     I say it's not, so I don't know -- I can ask again but he will give the

20     same answer.

21             JUDGE KWON:  So you could later on prove that the initial date of

22     indictment brought against Miodrag -- Mr. Miodrag Andric.

23             MR. ZEC:  Certainly, Mr. President, it should be in the judgement

24     pursuant to which indictment his father was tried and whether it was

25     modified or not.

Page 34472

 1             JUDGE KWON:  So, Mr. Andric, do you confirm that

 2     6th of September, 1996, was the date on which your father was prosecuted

 3     for the first time?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not September, June.  The time of

 5     the killing, actually, that's June.  I don't understand why witness

 6     Sefik Hurko was heard during the trial if my father had not been charged

 7     with the garage.

 8             MR. ZEC:

 9        Q.   Again, that's the matter of the proceedings and it's all

10     explained in the judgement.

11             MR. ZEC:  And, Mr. President, for your reference judgement is --

12     I have 1D0 -- ID12018.  This is the first-instance judgement, and at

13     page 2 in the reasoning it refers to this indictment of --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Let's take a look.

15             What page?

16             MR. ZEC:  So in B/C/S it should be page 2.  Can we -- page --

17     English page 2 as well see.  Page 3 in English, please.

18        Q.   Mr. Andric, can you see this judgement?  This is the

19     first-instance judgement against your father.  This one is from 1997 and

20     in the reasoning it says:  Senior public prosecutor under investigation

21     number 6 September 1996 indicted Miodrag Andric, and so on.  So the

22     indictment that I showed to you a moment ago is the indictment pursuant

23     to which your father was tried; correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MR. ZEC:  Your Honours, I tender the indictment which is

Page 34473

 1     65 ter 24688.

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  We'll receive it.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI P6158, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Andric, now that we're on the subject of

 9     this document, the latest one, please take a look at this statement of

10     reasons.  It says in line 5 or 6 and the deputy cantonal prosecutor

11     partially modified the indictment at the hearing --

12             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

13             Yes, Mr. Zec.

14             MR. ZEC:  We are back to the same position that I was objecting

15     at the beginning of this issue with the judgement.  Mr. Karadzic asking

16     the witness to comment the legal proceedings in Bosnia --

17             JUDGE KWON:  No, but --

18             MR. ZEC:  It's clear --

19             JUDGE KWON:  -- you didn't hear the question.

20             MR. ZEC:  I can see where it's going.  It's again about this

21     minor modification of indictment which has nothing to do with dropping

22     charges is the core of my objection.

23             JUDGE KWON:  We haven't heard the question.

24             Yes, please carry on, Mr. Karadzic.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 34474

 1        Q.   So, Mr. Andric, this indictment that was shown to you dated the

 2     9th of September, 1996, that was used as a basis, was it modified,

 3     amended, during these proceedings?  And to what extent was the garage

 4     spoken about during the trial?

 5        A.   Throughout the trial garage -- the garage was talked about and

 6     witnesses were heard about the garage, and that is to say that the

 7     accused person was charged with the garage.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  What is the idea underlying the reconstruction of the

 9     garage?

10        A.   The reconstruction of the scene established that witnesses

11     provided false testimony.  In the first statement given in Sarajevo, the

12     witness actually claimed that there was a small door on the garage, and

13     then when they came to the actual spot and when they took a photograph of

14     the garage then he changed his statement.  So he basically adjusted his

15     statement to what suited him, but basically this testimony, these

16     statements, were false.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Who carried out this reconstruction of the garage?

18        A.   The entire reconstruction was carried out by the

19     cantonal prosecutor's office, the MUP of the canton of Sarajevo, the MUP

20     of Republika Srpska, the OHR ombudsman, and the Human Rights Institution

21     were all present there.

22        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Andric.  I'd like to ask you something:  These

23     lists that were shown to you, these lists of these persons that were

24     called captured persons here, are they accurate or not?  Did you know how

25     reliable these lists were?

Page 34475

 1        A.   I don't know.  I don't know about all of it.  I don't know who

 2     all the persons there were.  Basically I don't have much information

 3     about that.

 4        Q.   On page 18 of today's transcript, in lines 14 and 15, the learned

 5     Mr. Zec said to you, presented information as to the following:  That

 6     Mr. Cerovic lost his life on the 30th of November, 1992.  Did you know

 7     him personally, and is it true that that is when he lost his life?

 8        A.   That is correct.  He lost his life on that day.  A planted

 9     anti-tank -- anti-armour mine killed him.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Do you have any explanation as to -- was this an

11     important event?  Did the brigade and corps know about that?  Were they

12     informed of the fact that Cerovic had been killed?

13        A.   I think so.

14        Q.   Was Mr. Cerovic an important person in the military structure?

15        A.   He was assistant commander for security in the brigade.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Now I'd like us to take a look at P6155 briefly.

17     What was Mr. Cerovic's rank?

18        A.   He was a captain or a major.  I'm not sure.

19        Q.   Please take a look at the date.  How is it possible that on the

20     1st of February, 1993, the Drina Corps is sending information to him

21     three or four months after he was killed?

22        A.   I don't know about that.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Zec.

25             MR. ZEC:  Perhaps we can see last page of this document because I

Page 34476

 1     was talking about - and witness confirmed - about Ljubomir Cerovic, who

 2     was security officer.  It's -- I'm sorry, it's the first page --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes --

 4             MR. ZEC:  It's about Slobodan.  If I'm not mistaken, it's

 5     Slobodan Cerovic.  It's another person.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Or lieutenant -- who was lieutenant-colonel.

 7             MR. ZEC:  Exactly and different rank.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure we are seeing "Slobodan."

 9             MR. ZEC:  That's another list -- not this one list.  The other

10     list which was --

11             JUDGE KWON:  But we can ask, yes.  Thank you, Mr. Zec.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now take a look at --

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Actually, did you have two Cerovic's in the brigade?

15        A.   No, one Cerovic was in the brigade and this other one was in the

16     corps, the Drina Corps.

17        Q.   Thank you.  And this fourth, that pertains to Rogatica, doesn't

18     it?

19        A.   [No interpretation]

20             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters did not hear the witness's

21     answer.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Can we have a look at who this Slobodan is --

24             JUDGE KWON:  Because of overlapping, the interpreters didn't hear

25     the witness's answer.

Page 34477

 1             What did you say, Mr. Andric?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Rogatica Brigade, the

 3     1st Podrinje.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  But the -- what position did Mr. Cerovic was in the

 5     Drina Corps?  Who was in the Drina Corps?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Slobodan Cerovic.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  What was he?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know.  I don't know

 9     exactly.  At any rate, this man did exist, I mean in the corps.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Is it not possible that the Cerovic,

11     Slobodan Cerovic, who was in the Drina Corps coincidentally stayed in the

12     Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade?  That's why this message was sent to him

13     when he was there?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about that.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

16             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Can we briefly take a look at P6153.  Slobodan Aviljas, does that

20     name ring a bell.

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Can you take a look at this list and can you see whether it was

23     sent to Slobodan Aviljas?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Now I'd like to ask you --

Page 34478

 1             MR. ZEC:  I apologise.  This is the list that I was referring to

 2     earlier and this was sent by Slobodan Cerovic, Lieutenant-Colonel --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I think he's coming to that.  Why don't we see

 4     the last page.  Yes, we see assistant commander

 5     Lieutenant-Colonel Slobodan Cerovic.

 6             MR. ZEC:  And we were also talking about Ljubomir Cerovic who was

 7     security officer, so two different people.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  So do you confirm, Mr. Andric, now that this is sent

 9     by Slobodan Cerovic, who was the assistant commander in the Drina Corps

10     and whose rank was a lieutenant-colonel?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Possibly, yes.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   What was your role in the transfer of Lieutenant-Colonel Palic to

16     Mlin?

17        A.   I was a driver in the military police, so I did that driving

18     along that road.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Did you ever give a statement anywhere about that?

20        A.   Yes, I gave a statement at the crime police administration in

21     Banja Luka.

22        Q.   Did they trust you and how did you prove that you were telling

23     the truth?

24        A.   Well, lie-detector tests were carried out and it was established

25     that the statements were truthful, as they were.

Page 34479

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Today on page 22 and then page 23, when a rather

 2     complex question was put to you, your answer was "yes."  So please do

 3     help us establish what this "yes" refers to.  I'm going to read it out in

 4     English so that you receive a better translation:

 5             [In English] "Q.  I just read here you first four names, all

 6     female names.  In fact, they appear all the way down to number 17 as well

 7     as the name item 41, next page on this list.  The reality is, Mr. Andric,

 8     that the Muslim civilians were detained at Rasadnik, isn't it?"

 9             The answer is:

10             "Yes."

11             [Interpretation] Can you tell us whether you confirmed that these

12     persons were at the detention unit in Rasadnik?

13        A.   They were there at the reception centre.  They were right next to

14     each other.  Basically they were at the reception centre there.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Then it says, further on, 32 to 35, I'm going to read

16     it out in English again:

17             [In English] "... are the names of Sefik Hurko, Mahir Jasarevic,

18     Fejzo Hurko and Alija Isakovic, whose statements you have referred and

19     they all say they were detained in Rasadnik; this is correct, isn't it?"

20             [Interpretation] Now you said "yes."  What is correct, that you

21     read that or that you know that these persons were detained in Rasadnik

22     in that part?

23        A.   Sefik Hurko, Izeta Hurko, Fejzo Hurko, and Alija Isakovic were --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the end of the

25     answer.

Page 34480

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, because of your overlapping, they

 2     didn't hear the answer of the witness.  Can you repeat your answer.

 3     Sefik Hurko, Izeta Hurko and Fejzo Hurko were what?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were in military detention.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And on page 23 -- actually, before that, can you tell

 8     us on which basis they were in military detention and the others were at

 9     the reception centre?

10        A.   Well, since the two Hurkos had pistols and two boxes with

11     70 bullets, they were considered to be armed persons and that's why they

12     were brought into military detention.

13        Q.   Thank you.  When were they taken prisoner?

14        A.   That happened after the counter-attack because the Muslim units

15     from the village of Madjer torched the village of Dobromirovici and

16     Lelek.  Then in the counter-attack Fejzo's wife and Fejzo Hurko and

17     Sefik Hurko were taken prisoner.

18        Q.   Thank you.  And they were in your garage.  Were they your

19     prisoners or your family's prisoners or whose prisoners?

20        A.   They were prisoners of the army.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Over here on page 23 -- I'm going to read it out to

22     you in English:

23             [In English] "Mr. Andric, the civilians were detained at Rasadnik

24     and you know this because you drove a group of them to Zvornik."

25             [Interpretation] Your answer:

Page 34481

 1             [In English] "That is correct.  That group was supposed to go to

 2     the Muslim territory ...," [Interpretation] and so on.

 3             This part "it is correct," what does it refer to?  Does it refer

 4     to the fact that you drove them or to the fact that they were prisoners

 5     in Rasadnik?

 6        A.   No, they were at this reception centre and that means that they

 7     expressed a wish to temporarily change their place of residence in order

 8     to go to the territory that was under the control of their people;

 9     however, the Muslim authorities did not allow that.  They allowed them to

10     enter the area of Tuzla, but after that they obstructed that and then

11     they returned them to Rasadnik.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have the map, P6157.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   We'd like to ask you to explain to all of us who held what under

16     their control so that all the participants, primarily the Trial Chamber,

17     would get a proper picture as to who controlled what.

18             MR. ZEC:  Mr. President, I don't think this was an issue in

19     direct or cross-examination.

20             JUDGE KWON:  To understand the location probably I think it's

21     relevant who held what -- what territory -- what places on this map.

22             MR. ZEC:  But that's something that -- perhaps you want to hear

23     that, but that's something that he was supposed to put in his direct

24     examination.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Let us see.

Page 34482

 1             Please carry on, Mr. Karadzic.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we zoom in a bit in order to

 3     see most of the central part of the municipality.  And I kindly ask the

 4     usher to help Mr. Andric with the electronic pen.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Let's zoom in further.  Is it sufficient,

 6     Mr. Karadzic?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe it is.

 8             MR. KARADZIC:

 9        Q.   Mr. Andric, please, could you tell us, for example, who by the

10     end of the summer of 1992, during those critical days before Rogatica was

11     liberated by the Serbs, where was the separation line?  Who held what and

12     could you put an S on the Serb side and an M on the Muslim side and tell

13     us who held what.

14        A.   Well, we'll try.

15             JUDGE KWON:  If it's -- your question is of such a general

16     nature, how is it relevant?  How does it arise from the

17     cross-examination, Mr. Karadzic?  Unless it has specific bearing on the

18     location of school or the garage -- location of Mr. Andric's house and

19     Vragolovi.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Excellency,

21     that was mentioned.  Vragolovi, well let's see who controlled Vragolovi,

22     who could have destroyed the mosque there.  Who was where in that area so

23     that we can understand what it was that the Serbs held.

24             JUDGE KWON:  I think to the mosque -- yes, Mr. Zec.

25             MR. ZEC:  And the Vragolovi issue came in relation to exhumation

Page 34483

 1     of Avdo Palic, that's the place where he was exhumed.  There was no

 2     question about Vragolovi in 1992, either in direct or in

 3     cross-examination.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Who was in control of Vragolovi in 1995 may be

 5     relevant.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But, Excellencies, all these

 7     markings could be of relevance, otherwise why wouldn't the Prosecutor

 8     then submit a neutral map without any markings?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Probably they couldn't find a better one in the

10     time-frame.  Then you can move on, Mr. Karadzic.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And would you permit me to ask the

12     witness to draw a line between the Muslim-held and the Serb-held areas in

13     1992?

14             JUDGE KWON:  But how does it arise from the line of

15     cross-examination?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The garage and the fighting and the

17     capture of those people on the list occurred in 1992, so I want to put to

18     the witness what the situation was in the villages from which these

19     people were placed in the reception centres.  Why were elderly people in

20     the reception centres.  Why were they not in their own villages?  This

21     does arise from the cross-examination.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Please proceed.

23             Could you draw a line, Mr. Andric.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This line is the line that goes

25     along the village of Kosovo towards the direction of Leleci.  I think the

Page 34484

 1     houses of Leleci is not -- are not shown here.  Madjeri was under the

 2     control of the Muslim forces, Madjeri, Kozici, Kopljevici.  There was a

 3     line of defence straight through the village --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear which village.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- between the Muslim and the Serb

 6     forces.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Could you please draw the lines along the whole municipality,

 9     indicating who was where, if you're able to do that; if not, that's all

10     right.

11        A.   Well, I don't know everything in detail.  In any case, the Muslim

12     forces were already holding the areas around the town.

13        Q.   Very well.  Then can you please circle the villages that were

14     held by the Muslims.  Who held Vrazalice?

15        A.   Muslims.

16        Q.   Can you please circle that and place an M next to that.

17        A.   [Marks]

18        Q.   What about Bulozi?

19        A.   Just one moment, please.

20        Q.   It's to the south of Vrazalice, Bulozi.

21        A.   That was also under their control.

22        Q.   Otricevo?

23        A.   M.

24        Q.   Brcigovo?

25        A.   M.

Page 34485

 1        Q.   Lubardici?

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, it goes beyond the scope you

 3     suggested.  So the area below that line belonged to the Muslims?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Could you put the date of today, which is

 6     28th of February, and your signature on the top of this map.

 7             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  We'll receive as the next -- as next Defence

 9     exhibit.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D3046, Your Honours.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Mr. Andric, now I'm going to read out these villages, so I would

14     like to ask you where there was combat or around which villages there was

15     combat and around which ones there was no combat.  In the document that

16     talks about -- it's this one, P6153 and 6155.  These documents talk about

17     these persons who were in the Rasadnik reception centre.  Were there

18     any -- was there any fighting around the village of Zakomo?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Jasenica?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Well, let's take it slowly, take a break.  Jasenica?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Dumonjici?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 34486

 1        Q.   Just make a break, please.  Berkovici?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Kukavice?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Radava?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  How are they relevant to the cross-examination?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, it was said here

 8     and also the heading can help us draw the conclusion that we're talking

 9     about prisoners, but the witness confirmed that these were civilians who

10     were received at the reception centre.  So what I am interested in is why

11     would civilians be in the reception centre?  Were these combat zones or

12     were they ethnically cleansed?  This is a very relevant question, both

13     for the Defence as well as in terms of the indictment.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Zec.

16             MR. ZEC:  Only to say for the record that the document says that

17     these people were war prisoners.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Do you object to the line of re-examination?

19             MR. ZEC:  I objected earlier and I thought that you want to hear

20     this evidence, so I don't object anymore.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, we think you exhausted this issue.

23     Please move on to your next topic.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we now look at

25     65 ter 24439.

Page 34487

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   You were asked about your role in the transfer of Avdo Palic from

 3     Rogatica to Mlin.  24439, 65 ter.  In what capacity were you questioned

 4     at the B&H MUP in 1994?  Is this the document?

 5        A.   Well, I was interviewed in my capacity as a witness.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Can we look at page 3 of the document, please.  And

 7     page 4 in the English.  I'm going to read this sentence:

 8             "According to my recollection, the above-mentioned Palic was with

 9     the mentioned guards for some ten days or so and in this time-period I

10     brought them food two or three times ..."

11             And then the conclusion at the bottom before your signature is:

12             "I don't know anything about the fate of Avdo Palic."

13             Was this statement tested on a lie-detector machine?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Thank you.  I would like to tender this, please.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Any objection?

17             MR. ZEC:  No objection.

18             JUDGE KWON:  We'll receive it -- how long is this one?  We can

19     admit it in its entirety or only this page?

20             MR. ZEC:  It's a witness statement that he gave in 2009, I

21     believe, to the RS MUP so yeah --

22             JUDGE KWON:  Four pages.

23             MR. ZEC:  Exactly.  His statement is very short.  It's more cover

24     pages.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll receive it.

Page 34488

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D3047, Your Honours.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.  I

 3     don't have any further questions for this witness.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Andric.

 6        A.   You're welcome.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Andric, that concludes your evidence.  I would

 8     like to thank you on behalf of this Chamber for your coming to The Hague

 9     to give it.  Now you are free to go.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11                           [The witness withdrew]

12                           [The witness entered court]

13             MR. FILE:  Your Honour, just one small piece of administration if

14     that's all right.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Good morning, Mr. File.  Yes.

16             MR. FILE:  Good morning.  There were two exhibits that were MFI'd

17     pending English translation.  I'm referring to P5975 and P6149.  And I

18     just wanted to alert the Chamber that English translations are now

19     available and uploaded, and so I would move to have those admitted as

20     full exhibits.

21             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

22             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber has been checking whether certain

23     exhibit was marked for identification only because of lack of English

24     translation or otherwise, but this time based upon the position of the

25     Defence we'll admit it in full -- them, both of them in their entirety.

Page 34489

 1     Thank you, Mr. File.

 2             MR. FILE:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, would the witness make the solemn declaration,

 4     please.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 6     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.  Thank you.

 7                           WITNESS:  BOZIDAR TRISIC

 8                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Trisic.  Please be seated and make

10     yourself comfortable.  Before you commence your evidence, Mr. Trisic, I

11     must draw your attention to a particular Rule of Procedure and Evidence

12     we have here at the International Tribunal, that is, Rule 90(E).  Under

13     this Rule you may object to answering any question from Mr. Karadzic, the

14     Prosecution, or even from the Judges if you believe that your answer

15     might incriminate you.  In this context, "incriminate" means saying

16     something that might amount to an admission of guilt for a criminal

17     offence or saying something that might provide evidence that you might

18     have committed a criminal offence.  However, should you think that an

19     answer might incriminate you and, as a consequence, you refuse to answer

20     the question, I must let you know that the Tribunal has the power to

21     compel you to answer the question.  But in that situation, the Tribunal

22     would ensure that your testimony compelled in such circumstances would

23     not be used in any case that might be laid against you for any case --

24     against you for any offence, save and except for the offence of giving

25     false testimony.  Do you understand what I have just told you?

Page 34490

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do, sir.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 3             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 4                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Trisic.

 6        A.   Good day.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to speak up.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Can we ask you to speak up a little bit and come closer to the

10     microphones.  I would also like you and me to speak our sentences out

11     slowly and to make a pause between question and answer.

12        A.   I understand.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Did you provide my Defence team with a statement?

14        A.   Yes.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 1D7814 in e-court

16     now, please.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Mr. Trisic, do you see the statement on the screen in front of

19     you?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And have you read and signed the statement?

22        A.   I did read it, but I don't see the signature yet.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we show the witness the last

24     page, please.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes, I did sign this

Page 34491

 1     statement.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Does this statement faithfully reflect what you told

 4     the Defence team?

 5        A.   Yes, sir.

 6        Q.   If I were to put the same questions to you today that were put to

 7     you then, would your answers in essence be the same?

 8        A.   I would not change anything.  They would be the same in essence,

 9     yes.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender the

12     statement and the accompanying documents pursuant to Rule 92 ter.

13             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President, the two associated

14     exhibits are noted -- it isn't noted there, but I don't find them on our

15     65 ter list in my own checking.  So I would ask that they be allowed to

16     be added.  I don't believe they were there because the witness was

17     interviewed after that list was submitted.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Any objection, Mr. File?

19             MR. FILE:  No objection, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE KWON:  We'll admit the statement as well as two associated

21     exhibits.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  The 92 ter statement will be Exhibit D3048, and

23     the two other documents would be Exhibits D3049 and D3050 respectively.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

25             Please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

Page 34492

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'm now going to read

 2     the summary of Bozidar Trisic's statement in English.

 3             [In English] Bozidar Trisic lived in Zaklopaca, and before the

 4     war he worked as a teacher in the local primary school.

 5             He lived in an ethnically mixed village where the relations

 6     between all residents were good.  However, after the multi-party

 7     elections people began to mistrust one another because of the propaganda,

 8     but still there were no incidents in the village to be caused by -- due

 9     to the ethnicity.

10             At the beginning of May 1992 two buses carrying around 200 people

11     arrived in Zaklopaca.  These people were Muslim inhabitants of local

12     villages who had fled as the Muslim forces wished to mobilise them.

13     Temporary accommodation was found in the village for these people.  The

14     new arrivals informed the villagers of Zaklopaca that Muslims had placed

15     barricades at the entrance into the bauxite mine in Rupovo Brdo, and they

16     were not allowing miners to go to work.  Mixed patrols were started by

17     the villagers of Zaklopaca as both the Muslims and the Serbs were afraid;

18     however, both Muslims and Serbian neighbours continued to socialise with

19     each other.

20             On 16th of May, 1992, Bozidar Trisic noticed three soldiers in

21     the village who he did not recognise.  He spoke to them and they said

22     they were looking for Turks in the village.  He informed them that there

23     were no Turks in the village and that they could turn back.  As the

24     soldiers left, shooting could be heard in Gornja Zaklopaca part of the

25     village.  As he returned home, Bozidar Trisic noticed bullets landing in

Page 34493

 1     the village.  Everyone in the village was very confused as no one knew

 2     whether the village was being attacked by Muslims or Serbs.

 3     Bozidar Trisic noticed that there was shooting from Serbian houses in the

 4     direction of an attack in the woods.  He also saw unfamiliar soldiers who

 5     were firing at the village.  The shooting lasted for 10 to 15 minutes,

 6     and soon after it finished the inhabitants of Zaklopaca noticed a convoy

 7     of passengers, vehicles passing by.  Bozidar Trisic did not notice any

 8     police or military vehicles in the convoy.

 9             A number of villagers were killed in this attack, and following

10     this the Muslim inhabitants left Zaklopaca and moved to Gerovi, a Muslim

11     village.  Following this, the Serb residents patrolled the village

12     guarding both the Muslims and Serb houses.  The Serb residents assisted

13     their Muslim neighbours, providing them with food and cigarettes and

14     other goods.  The incident that occurred on that day was not planned and

15     both Serbs and Muslims were in a dangerous situation.  Not a single house

16     was set alight or destroyed in this incident.  Nobody brought Muslims in

17     from elsewhere and killed them in Zaklopaca, only residents were killed.

18     Bozidar Trisic considers that this incident may well have been revenge

19     for the killing of the three territorials outside the barricaded mine.

20             And that is the summary, and at that moment I do not have

21     questions for the witness.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Mr. Trisic, as you have noted, your evidence

23     in this case has been admitted in writing in lieu of your oral testimony.

24     Now you will be cross-examined by the representative of the Office of the

25     Prosecutor, Mr. File.

Page 34494

 1             MR. FILE:  Thank you, Your Honour.  And good morning to everyone.

 2                           Cross-examination by Mr. File:

 3        Q.   Mr. Trisic, I'd like to --

 4        A.   Good day.

 5        Q.   -- start by asking you about a time in early May 1992 when you

 6     say that two buses arrived in Zaklopaca carrying about 200 Muslims from

 7     nearby villages, including Pomol.  You're aware of the event I'm talking

 8     about?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   These were families?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And in this group there were men and women of all ages and

13     children?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   In your statement at paragraph 7 you said:

16             "When we asked them why they had come there, they said that they

17     had fled because the Muslim forces wanted to mobilise them into a

18     detachment in Djile.  Since they did not want to be mobilised, they fled

19     to us for protection."

20             Now, you would agree that it sounds strange to hear that a group

21     of Muslim families, including women and children and the elderly, would

22     be fleeing their nearby villages due to the fear of being mobilised into

23     a military unit; correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Now, you know who Omer Selimovic is; right?  He was another

Page 34495

 1     resident of Zaklopaca at the time?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             MR. FILE:  Could we have 65 ter 24671, please.

 4        Q.   What you're going to see on your screen in a moment is a witness

 5     statement that Mr. Selimovic gave to this Tribunal in 2000.  He mentioned

 6     on page 4 - if we could go to e-court page 4, please - on the second

 7     paragraph I'll read to you what he said in his statement.  He mentioned

 8     the same arrival of people that you did but he described it differently.

 9     He said:

10             "One day a large number of displaced persons from the village of

11     Pomol arrived at Zaklopaca.  Each of our families took in some of the

12     displaced persons and they told us what had happened to them.  Pomol is

13     some 10 kilometres away, and the people told us that a Serb tank had

14     shelled them; their houses had been burned and destroyed, and that they

15     had run to the woods to escape."

16             Now, does this refresh your recollection as to why all those

17     people came to Zaklopaca?

18        A.   In talking with the people who came, mixed guards organised by

19     neighbours, Muslims and us Serbs, it is correct that those people were

20     placed in the elementary school and that the rest of them were placed at

21     private Muslim houses.  I personally asked them -- first of all, we were

22     glad that they came.  They were peace-loving people and they came - they

23     fled, of course - they said that there was some things happening around

24     the bauxite mine, that there were barricades, that a terrain was being

25     cleared, and that they came there to get out of the chaos and to seek

Page 34496

 1     shelter for the time being.  They told me personally that that is what

 2     they did.  As for whether they fled or if they did not flee, I don't

 3     know.

 4        Q.   So it's your testimony that they never told you that their

 5     village had been burned and that they were fleeing an attack from a Serb

 6     tank?

 7        A.   I did not ask them whether their village was burned.  We did not

 8     ask them if the village was burned.  They just told us that they came

 9     because they were supposed to be mobilised.  It was a large number of

10     citizens.  They were supposed to be mobilised in the Djile detachment and

11     so they came to seek temporary shelter.  That's what they told me, at

12     least.  I mean, these were very, very nice people.

13        Q.   Okay.  Let's talk about the events of the 16th of May, 1992.  I'm

14     just going to start by asking you to verify a couple of basic points

15     about the events of that day.  First of all, over 60 of your neighbours

16     from the village were killed that day; correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And all of the victims were Muslims?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   They were killed by gun-fire?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And you saw soldiers firing on the village that day?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Okay.  Well, we'll get to that.  It's true that on that day you

25     attended a barbecue at the house of your neighbour, Seban Selimovic;

Page 34497

 1     correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And in the afternoon while you were on your way to a neighbour's

 4     shop you stopped to talk with your neighbour, Branko Julevic; correct?

 5        A.   No, not the next day.  The same day.

 6        Q.   Okay.  The same day you were speaking to your neighbour,

 7     Branko Julevic, and during that conversation three soldiers who you did

 8     not recognise approached --

 9        A.   Jolovic is the name, Branko Jolovic.

10        Q.   Thank you for that clarification for the transcript.  During that

11     conversation it's true that three soldiers whom you did not recognise

12     approached you; correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   They were in camouflage uniforms and were armed with automatic

15     rifles?

16        A.   They were not in camouflage uniforms.  They were in

17     olive-green-grey uniforms and had automatic rifles, as far as I can

18     remember.

19        Q.   So at paragraph 12 of your statement where you say, "They were in

20     camouflage uniforms and had automatic rifles on their shoulders ..." that

21     should be corrected; is that what you're saying?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Now, according to you, they said they were looking for Turks;

24     right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 34498

 1        Q.   And you understood these soldiers to be Serbs; right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And this was the first sign to you that day that indicated that

 4     something was wrong; correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And before the soldiers appeared, when you were talking to your

 7     neighbour, Mr. Jolovic, was he armed?

 8        A.   I did not notice.

 9        Q.   Well, if he were carrying, for example, a semi-automatic

10     machine-gun, you would have noticed; right?

11        A.   Certainly, of course I would have noticed.  It's not something

12     you can hide under a coat.

13        Q.   And you are certain that your neighbour, Mr. Jolovic, did not

14     approach you along with the other soldiers as a group; correct?

15        A.   No, sir.  He was sitting outside of Vujadin Vasiljevic's house on

16     a stump, on a tree stump, where wood is cut.  He and Vujadin were sitting

17     there and talking.  At that moment I came by, walking from the shop.  I

18     stopped to talk to them for a while, just asking:  How are you,

19     et cetera, officially.

20        Q.   Okay.

21             MR. FILE:  Could we have 65 ter 24682, please.

22        Q.   While that's coming up, you know who Semsudin Muskic is; correct?

23        A.   Muskic, Semsudin Muskic.

24        Q.   I take it you know who that is?

25        A.   I do.

Page 34499

 1        Q.   He was at the same barbecue you were attending that day?

 2        A.   Yes, he and his brother with their entire families were sitting

 3     there in the yard.  He had come a bit earlier.  First he went to

 4     Vlasenica, then came back.

 5        Q.   Okay.  He gave a statement on the 26th of June, 1998, to an

 6     examining judge of the cantonal court in Tuzla in connection with the

 7     investigation of Milenko Djuric and others for genocide committed in

 8     Zaklopaca.  And what you have in front of you is a copy of his statement.

 9             I'd like to direct your attention to the bottom of page 1 in

10     B/C/S and the top half of page 2 in the English.  And what you'll see in

11     the statement is he describes spending the whole day with his brother,

12     Mevlo, in their neighbour Saban Selimovic's yard where there was a

13     barbecue.  And then in the lower half of English page 2 and the top of

14     page 2 of the B/C/S he says:

15             "At Saban's house we were joined for the rest of the day by our

16     neighbour, Trisic Bozidar, a registrar.  At about 16.55 I decided to go

17     to my house which was about 20 metres away.  I remember immediately

18     turning on the TV as I entered my house, and at the time shown on the

19     screen was 17.00.  At that moment my brother Mevlo's children said some

20     soldiers were coming, so I immediately went outside to see what kind of

21     soldiers they were.  That was when I saw four unidentified persons

22     stepping out of a Honda passenger vehicle carrying automatic rifles and

23     wearing the former JNA olive-grey uniform.  I saw and recognised our

24     neighbour Jolovic Brano, son of Radomir, accompanying the four men.

25     Brano was carrying an M72 semi-automatic machine-gun.  They were heading

Page 34500

 1     straight for Saban Selimovic's house.  Outside the yard they were greeted

 2     by Trisic Bozo, the registrar.  He spoke to them about something.  I saw

 3     Bozidar trying to prevent them from going into the yard and I heard them

 4     shouting at him.  Next, Trisic Bozidar made a hand sign to the rest of us

 5     who were observing the whole thing to flee.  We realised the situation

 6     was critical and we all fled the house ..."

 7             He then goes on to describe automatic fire being opened a few

 8     minutes later.  Now, from this statement it sounds like you by trying to

 9     prevent these armed men from going into your neighbour's house and

10     signalling that there was danger, you might have saved this man's life.

11     Do you remember that?

12        A.   Yes, I remember that, except that in this version where he says

13     they attempted to go into the house of Saban Selimovic, that house was

14     next door to mine, and I stopped these soldiers some 50 metres away from

15     going into Vujadin Vasiljevic's house when they had crossed the river

16     coming from the side of the main road.  So it's true I saved not only his

17     life but the lives of many Serbs and all the Muslims there.  And of

18     course I risked my own life, and I'm not sorry to have done it, in fact.

19     I'm very glad I did.

20        Q.   So this statement also describes Brano Jolovic as being part of

21     the group of soldiers approaching your area, and does this refresh your

22     recollection as to what your neighbour, Mr. Jolovic, was doing at the

23     time?

24        A.   My neighbour, Mr. Jolovic, worked in the bauxite mines.  In fact,

25     he was a guard at the football stadium Milici --

Page 34501

 1        Q.   Sorry, I'm not interested in the background about Mr. Jolovic.

 2     I'm just wondering if this refreshes your recollection as to what he was

 3     doing at that precise time.

 4        A.   I found my neighbours Jolovic and Vasiljevic sitting on the tree

 5     stump outside of Vujadin Vasiljevic's house.  At some five minutes later,

 6     those three soldiers appeared.  That's what I know.  That's what I'm sure

 7     of.

 8        Q.   Okay --

 9        A.   Now what he had come with, I don't know.

10        Q.   Okay.  You went home to get dressed and to get your M48 rifle and

11     you say that when you came out into your courtyard again you saw a

12     soldier who had put a machine-gun on the water-pipes and was shooting at

13     the village; correct?

14        A.   Yes, except that when those three soldiers came back, they turned

15     around immediately, one of them tried to take his rifle off, the other

16     one jerked him away, and they returned to the road.  A few minutes later

17     in the upper village, Gornji Selo, shooting started, then I returned to

18     Vujadin's house, took the house, and as I was approaching the house, not

19     from the fountain but from the water-supply pipe, because there's a

20     water-supply pipe from Zaklopaca to Milici and our city supply system,

21     and between my house and Saban's house --

22        Q.   Mr. Trisic --

23        A.   -- bullets were whizzing and there was a cloud of dust --

24        Q.   I'm sorry to interrupt.  I'm sorry to interrupt, but your

25     statement is already in evidence so you don't have to repeat everything

Page 34502

 1     that's in there.  I'd like you to just answer the questions.

 2        A.   All right.  Thank you.

 3        Q.   So you answered "yes" to my question about whether you saw a

 4     soldier shooting at the village.  You previously, a few minutes ago, said

 5     when I asked you whether you saw soldiers shooting that day you said

 6     "no."  So I take it you wish to correct that answer?

 7        A.   I saw a soldier shooting from that water-supply pipe, if you

 8     understand me --

 9        Q.   Right --

10        A.   -- I didn't see the other soldiers shooting in Gornje Selo.

11        Q.   He was on your property at the time; is that right?

12        A.   You mean the soldier?

13        Q.   Yes.

14        A.   He was not on my estate.  He was in front.  He was in front of

15     it, perhaps 50 to 100 metres outside my farm, just below the main road.

16        Q.   Okay.  And you yelled at him to stop shooting and he did stop

17     shooting, he left, and he did not turn to fire at you; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Now, you were not out patrolling the village or participating in

20     any of this shooting; correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   You stayed in your house during this time?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   You did not live in the centre of the village; correct?

25        A.   I lived closer to the entrance to the village, at least that part

Page 34503

 1     of the village.

 2        Q.   And you did not see what was happening in the centre of the

 3     village at that time?

 4        A.   I did not see what was happening in the upper part of the

 5     village.

 6        Q.   And you had a Muslim neighbour named Adem Selimovic who went into

 7     the village to see what happened, and he came back a half-hour later and

 8     told you that there were many dead; correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And at that point you went to your Muslim neighbours' houses and

11     you told them that it would be best if they left the village and went to

12     a place where only Muslims lived; correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And you said this -- pardon me.  You said this because you knew

15     that it wasn't safe for Muslims there; correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And afterwards you went on a patrol of the village with other

18     Serbs; right?

19        A.   No.  I went alone to see what happened with them.  I saw they

20     were missing.  They were not there.  And then I went further up the

21     village where the Serb houses are and the house of Adem Selimovic and

22     that's where I found them, if you know what I mean.

23        Q.   So it's true that afterwards you must have seen dozens of Muslims

24     who had been your neighbours who had been shot to death at that point?

25        A.   No.  I couldn't see him because that's in the upper part of the

Page 34504

 1     village and we were in the lower part of the village.  In my part of the

 2     village, nobody was shot.

 3        Q.   So just to clarify, are you saying you never went to the upper

 4     part of the village after the incident to see what had happened?

 5        A.   No, I never went.

 6        Q.   Now, ultimately all of your Muslim neighbours who were still

 7     alive moved out of Zaklopaca; right?

 8        A.   Yes.  Things were still bad, but they returned and we saw each

 9     other almost every day.

10        Q.   But they did not return to live there.  They returned to collect

11     some of their belongings; that's right?

12        A.   Yes, yes, yes.

13        Q.   Now, I noticed in your statement that you mentioned that not a

14     single house was either set alight or destroyed during this incident, but

15     it's true that Serbs ultimately moved into the houses that were

16     previously owned by Muslims; right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Are you aware that the Muslim women who survived the massacre

19     walked to Vlasenica, where they surrendered to Serb soldiers and were

20     brought to the municipality building where they were required to sign

21     away their houses and property to the Serbs, at which point they were

22     bussed out of town in the direction of Kladanj.  Are you aware of that?

23        A.   I don't know about that.

24             MR. FILE:  Your Honours, the citation for that is Exhibit P418.

25        Q.   Okay, you said in paragraph 26 of your statement:

Page 34505

 1             "I was told there were claims that the attack on Zaklopaca was

 2     carried out by the Milici police station, or rather, its policemen, and

 3     that Rade Bjelanovic was the chief of the station.  I state that this is

 4     not true because I would have recognised the policemen from the Milici

 5     police station who wore blue uniforms at the time."

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Now, Mesudina Zaimhadzic was a resident of Zaklopaca who gave

 8     evidence here.  Do you know what that is?

 9        A.   I don't know exactly.

10        Q.   She specifically identified a policeman whom she knew from Milici

11     named Milomir Milosevic as a participant in the attack.  Did you see

12     Milomir Milosevic in Zaklopaca during the killings?

13        A.   I did not see that.

14        Q.   She also said that at 5.00 p.m. she looked out the window of her

15     house and saw about four or five army vehicles and one police car

16     arriving.  Do you not recall seeing a police car?

17        A.   I do not recall and I did not see that.  I didn't see a single

18     police or military vehicle that day.

19        Q.   Okay.  Are you familiar with the following four survivors of the

20     Zaklopaca attack:  Ibro Hamidovic?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Hakija and Havo Berbic?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And Mersida Salihovic?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 34506

 1        Q.   These people all gave statements under oath in 1995 to a

 2     magistrate in Tuzla, similar to the 1998 statement that we saw earlier

 3     from Semsudin Muskic.  I want to quickly show you something from each of

 4     their statements, then I'm going to ask you a question about it.  So

 5     could we have 65 ter number 64 -- sorry, 24678, please.  This is going to

 6     be the statement of Ibro Hamidovic.  And when it comes up, if we could go

 7     to page 2 of the B/C/S and page 2 of the English.  At the top of both

 8     pages what you'll see is that Mr. Hamidovic says:

 9             "On that very day, May 16th, 1992, about 4.00 p.m. I was in my

10     house in the village of Zaklopaca.  I suddenly saw three-four, no 7-8

11     vehicles pass through the village near my house, and the first of them

12     was a police car.  I recognised Milosevic Milomir, policeman, in the

13     police car ..."

14             And then it goes on to describe gun-fire being opened shortly

15     thereafter.  In the interests of time, I'm not going to go through the

16     other three statements of Havo Berbic and Hakija Berbic and

17     Mersida Salihovic, but I'll just tell you that all three of them also in

18     their statements recall seeing at least one police car.  So what I'm

19     wondering is whether it's possible that you just didn't see a police car

20     or police cars that were actually in Zaklopaca that day?

21        A.   I did not see that car.  I did not see any police cars.  Only in

22     the upper part, the first 100, 200 metres into the upper village.  The

23     police was changing the local water-supply pipes and police patrols were

24     taking turns around the water-pipes.  Milosevic was a policeman, but that

25     day I didn't see him.  I did not see any police cars that day, not a

Page 34507

 1     single one.

 2        Q.   But you acknowledge --

 3        A.   It's possible that --

 4        Q.   Pardon me.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I kindly ask the Prosecutor to

 6     tell us where it is stated that the police car was in the village,

 7     because here it says it passed through the village.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  You can take up that issue.

 9             But, Mr. Trisic, what -- did you try to say something?  It's

10     possible ... and it was -- and you were cut off.  What did you try to

11     say?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's possible that police cars

13     drove up to the water-supply pipe and that they were noticed because

14     there was a police patrol at the water installation every day; it was

15     guarded by the police.

16             MR. FILE:

17        Q.   And what you're saying is that could have happened without you

18     personally seeing it; right?

19        A.   Yes.  I did not see any police cars or military vehicles that

20     day.

21        Q.   Okay.  My last few questions I'd like to ask you about some

22     statements that you make in your witness statement.  At paragraph 23 you

23     say that the attack on Zaklopaca happened spontaneously and it had not

24     been planned, and then at paragraph 27 of your statement you give your

25     opinion as to what motivated the attackers.  You say:

Page 34508

 1             "A convoy of JNA military vehicles was travelling through Milici

 2     that day withdrawing towards Serbia and they encountered many problems on

 3     their way.  It was probably one of those people who, in revenge for the

 4     killing of the three territorials, asked someone where they could find

 5     Muslims close by, and a group of them and the volunteers who were in

 6     Milici at that time went to Zaklopaca and caused this incident."

 7             Now, this statement is just a guess, right?  Because you just

 8     testified that you didn't know who these attackers were?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MR. FILE:  No further questions, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, do you think you can conclude your

12     cross in ten minutes?  I'm sorry --

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe so.

14             JUDGE KWON:  I meant re-examination.  Then please continue,

15     Mr. Karadzic.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Trisic, on page 55 of today's LiveNote, you

19     were asked whether it was strange, now I'll give you the exact quotation

20     in English:

21             [In English] "Now, you would agree that it sounds strange to hear

22     that a group of Muslim families, including women and children and the

23     elderly, would be fleeing their nearby village due to the fear of being

24     mobilised into a military unit; correct?"

25             [Interpretation] And you said "yes."  Now, did you agree with

Page 34509

 1     that being strange?

 2        A.   No, I did not say that that was strange.  It wasn't strange

 3     because everybody avoided mobilisation, Serb and Muslim people alike.

 4     And of course everybody's going to try to get away from that hell that

 5     was going on up there, how should I know, around Rudnik.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Today on page 59 the question implied that that was

 7     the first sign that something went wrong, when these three soldiers

 8     showed up.  When did you find out about the ambush when these three

 9     persons were killed beforehand, when they were killed by the Muslims?

10        A.   I found out only on the next day.

11        Q.   On pages 61 and 62 you said that you heard that shooting had

12     started in the upper part of the village.  All of those who entered the

13     village then, who got into the village, did they have to pass by you on

14     that bridge?

15        A.   They didn't have to.  They could also enter along the road that

16     led to Gornji Zalukovi [phoen] from the main road.

17        Q.   Thank you.  On page 65 you briefly said "yes" in response to the

18     Prosecutor's question whether Serbs moved into Muslim houses.  Can you

19     tell us who these Serbs were that moved into Muslim houses and on which

20     basis?

21        A.   Serbs who moved into Muslim houses in Zaklopaca were from the

22     area of Rupovo Brdo because they had been expelled from there by the

23     Muslim population Brdo and Slivovo, and then they fled to Zaklopaca and

24     moved into Muslim houses in Zaklopaca.  There were people from

25     Gornje Vrsinje too.

Page 34510

 1        Q.   Thank you.  These houses, were they handed over to them, were

 2     they given to them as a gift?

 3        A.   No, they were not given to them as a gift.  They just lived there

 4     and they really did take care of the houses properly.  Afterwards, the

 5     houses were returned to the Muslims and then now they renovated these

 6     houses, whereas these people moved back to their own houses.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  My question is not reflected here, whether they

 8     became the owners of that?

 9        A.   No, they did not become the owners of that because that was

10     impossible.

11        Q.   Also it was mentioned that certain certificates were asked for in

12     terms of them giving houses as gifts.  How many cases were there of

13     having ownership changed in Vlasenica in terms of property being taken

14     away from someone?

15        A.   I don't know of a single case of somebody's property being seized

16     from them.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know Tomo Savkic, Milenko Stanic, and other

18     representatives of the Serb community in the authorities in Vlasenica?

19        A.   Yes, I do, Mr. President.

20        Q.   Did they participate or contribute in any way to this incident in

21     Zaklopaca?

22             MR. FILE:  Your Honour, I would object to that as going beyond

23     the scope of cross-examination.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] However, it had been implied that

Page 34511

 1     police vehicles had been noticed there and the police is part of the

 2     municipal authorities.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think it necessarily arose from the

 4     cross-examination.  You could have raised it in your direct examination.

 5     I tend to agree with the Prosecution.

 6             Yes, Mr. Robinson, would you like to help us?

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  I think the Prosecution's

 8     cross-examination called into question who it was who was responsible for

 9     these killings, and that it goes directly to that point.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll allow the question.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Mr. Trisic, you said today that you did not recognise these

15     people and in some statement that was read out too, that these people who

16     were shooting had not been recognised.  Now, this is what I'm interested

17     in:  To the best of your knowledge, the police of Vlasenica or Milici,

18     did it take part in this and what was the attitude of the authorities in

19     Milici and Vlasenica vis-a-vis that incident?

20        A.   I think that the authorities did not know about this incident

21     because every effort was made to go on living together so that we'd

22     continue living together as we had before that.  So I deny that the

23     authorities knew about this incident at all.

24        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned the possibility of police presence in

25     securing the waterworks.  Did you know that police vehicles could follow

Page 34512

 1     the military column through those municipalities?  I'd like to read this

 2     out to you, this statement of Zoran Durmic who testified here only

 3     recently.  Paragraph 8, Zoran Durmic's statement.  It says --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We do not have the text.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   "We were stopped at the roadblock and we were asked where we were

 7     going and we said we were escorting the military column to Zvornik.  All

 8     of those who were at the barricade were stern and unpleasant and they

 9     said" --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not catch the end.

11             JUDGE KWON:  It's too fast.  Take a look at the transcript and

12     begin from there again.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I see that, sir --

14             MR. FILE:  Your Honour.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. File.

16             MR. FILE:  I would object to this as being a very leading line of

17     questioning, essentially using the words of another witness to suggest

18     something relating to this roadblock and the military column.

19             JUDGE KWON:  I tend to agree with you, Mr. File.

20             What is your question, Mr. Karadzic?  Just put your question not

21     in a leading way.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   The question is:  What were all the ways in which a police

24     vehicle could have been seen without it being involved in --

25             MR. FILE:  Your Honour.

Page 34513

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Oh, I withdraw it.  That's fine.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Last question, Mr. Trisic:  You did not recognise it.  Did you

 4     hear from anyone else --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Is that your last question?  We need to rise.

 6     Please go on.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Mr. Trisic, you said that you did not recognise any of those

 9     soldiers.  Did you hear from anyone, from any of the other locals, about

10     them having recognised those persons who stopped there and opened fire?

11        A.   I did not hear any such thing, Mr. President.

12        Q.   Last question.  Where were these people killed?  Where were they,

13     in houses or what?  How come so many people were killed in 10 or

14     15 minutes only?

15        A.   That's what the locals told me, that people were killed as they

16     were fleeing from their homes, as they were trying to save themselves in

17     the woods, in the river valley, et cetera.  All of those who stayed

18     behind, in their homes, had not been touched.  Nothing happened to them.

19     Ibro Hamidovic and Semsudin at least said that when he came to see me in

20     Vlasenica three days later, he and his wife and their sister-in-law.

21        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Trisic.  No further questions.

22        A.   Thank you.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Trisic.  I would like to thank you

24     for your coming to The Hague to give it.  Now you are free to go.

25             We'll -- today, just for today, the Chamber is minded to take an

Page 34514

 1     hour break for lunch and adjourn at 3.00 unless it causes problem to the

 2     parties.

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  No problem.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  We'll resume at 1.45.

 5                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.42 p.m.

 6                           [The witness withdrew]

 7                           [The witness entered court]

 8                           --- On resuming at 1.49 p.m.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, would the witness make the solemn declaration,

10     please.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

12     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13                           WITNESS:  MOMIR BULATOVIC

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Bulatovic.  Please be seated and make

16     yourself comfortable.

17             Could -- yes, could the Chamber move into private session

18     briefly.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 34515

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  I forget to mention that we'll

18     proceed for this session pursuant to Rule 15 bis with Judge Morrison

19     being away.

20             Yes.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. President, did you give my Defence team a statement?

23        A.   Yes, I did.

24        Q.   Thank you.  I see that you already know that we need to pause

25     between question and answer, and I appreciate that.

Page 34516

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please call up in e-court

 2     1D07815.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Do you see that statement before you on the screen?

 5        A.   Yes, I do.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Have you read and signed this statement?

 7        A.   Judging by the first page, it is the statement that I read and

 8     signed.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we show President Bulatovic the

11     last page so that he can identify his signature.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is my signature.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Thank you.  Did the statement faithfully reflect what you said to

15     the Defence team?

16        A.   Yes.

17             THE ACCUSED:  [Microphone not activated] Do you hear me now?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat, Mr. Karadzic.  I'm not sure

19     whether I heard you or not.

20             THE ACCUSED:  [Microphone not activated] I don't have mike.  It

21     was functioning until recently.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Could you try it again.

23             THE ACCUSED:  Now I have it.

24             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry.  I'm sorry.  It was my notebook, thank

25     you, that pushed the priority button.  Please continue.

Page 34517

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   If I were to put the same questions to you today, would the

 3     answers to those questions basically be the same like those contained in

 4     this statement?

 5        A.   Yes, they would be the same but I must note that I can give

 6     additional argumentation to this honourable Trial Chamber, including

 7     facts that could not be included in the first statement.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, can I please

10     tender this 92 ter package now?

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

12             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  In addition, for

13     President Bulatovic we have eight associated exhibits, two of which were

14     not on our 65 ter list, which are the last two in our chart, and we would

15     ask that they be added as they came up during the proofing.

16             JUDGE KWON:  And as regards the areas the witness wanted to add

17     would be led live by Mr. Karadzic?

18             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President.  I think if there's additional

19     explanations required, we will elicit those in re-direct examination.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

21             Any objections, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

22             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  No, Your Honours, but I just wanted to

23     clarify.  In relation to the contemporaneous records that are basically

24     addressed by the witness in the statement, it's my understanding that

25     they are tendered in full and not just one page.  Is that understanding

Page 34518

 1     correct?

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I was about to raise that, if you do not raise

 3     it.

 4             As regards the four, one, two, three, four stenographic notes, I

 5     take it you're tendering only those pages shown to the witness?

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  Actually, if there's no objection by the

 7     Prosecution, we would like to have the whole -- those particular ones

 8     admitted.  But if this -- if the Prosecution would only want those pages

 9     then we will do that.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, then I would like to turn to you and would like

11     to hear from you --

12             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.

13             JUDGE KWON:  -- why they should be admitted in their entirety.

14             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, actually I join the request by the

15     Defence that they should be admitted in their entirety, in particular

16     65 ter 06141.  It's -- the entire -- the entire document refers to the

17     stances taken by the peace negotiations and they are actually of interest

18     for all.  It should be -- it should be in full.  In particular, the

19     Prosecution also will use this document to highlight certain passages,

20     and it is very difficult to just have it piecemeal because it's all the

21     time about these negotiations.  Therefore I think it's useful to the

22     Court to have it in full.

23             In relation to the three SDC minutes, there are, at least in

24     06243 and 06256, a few passages in there that are not really related to

25     Bosnia, but rather to the financing of the VJ.  But there are -- it's not

Page 34519

 1     many.  So mostly these -- the discussions are related to problems in the

 2     territory of Republika Srpska, the co-operation of the leaderships and

 3     the armies, and I think it should be also before the Court in full.  And

 4     in relation to 06253, it is also entirely about negotiations and the

 5     outcome of the negotiations, the positions taken by the Bosnian Serbs and

 6     other participants; therefore, I think to have them in full would assist

 7     the Court.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Given the circumstances, we'll admit

10     them all in their entirety.

11             Shall we give the numbers for the statement as well as the other

12     associated exhibits.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour, the 92 ter statement,

14     65 ter 1D7815 will be Exhibit D3051, and the eight associated exhibits

15     will be assigned Exhibits D3052 through Exhibits D3059 respectively.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

17             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'm now going to read

19     the summary of President Bulatovic's statement which has now been

20     admitted.  I'll be reading it in English.

21             [In English] Momir Bulatovic served as President of Montenegro

22     from 23rd of December, 1990, to the 15th of January, 1998.  He was

23     prime minister of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia from

24     19th of May, 1998, to 4th of November, 2000.

25             President Bulatovic believes that the Bosnian Serbs, led by

Page 34520

 1     Radovan Karadzic, did not need nor want the war.  They favoured the

 2     status quo of remaining in Yugoslavia.  Everything they did was in

 3     response to acts and threats of the Bosnian Muslims which were determined

 4     to rule over all of Bosnia.  President Bulatovic is convinced that the

 5     war could have been avoided in March 1992 had the Bosnian Muslims agreed

 6     to the Cutileiro Plan.  However, they were persuaded by the Americans

 7     that they could get a lot more if they rejected the plan.  More than

 8     three years and thousands of lives later, they ended up with the

 9     Dayton Agreement which was almost identical to the Cutileiro Plan.

10             On September the 16th, 1991, President Bulatovic attended a

11     meeting of high representatives of Serbia, Montenegro, and

12     Bosnia and Herzegovina in Belgrade.  The meeting was called for the

13     purpose of finding solutions to preserve Yugoslavia.  Dr. Karadzic and

14     Adil Zulfikarpasic, a Muslim leader, were invited to attend as special

15     guests after they had concluded the Serb-Muslim historic agreement,

16     calling for a peaceful sharing of power in Bosnia.

17     President Alija Izetbegovic chose not to attend this meeting.

18             When it became inevitable that Bosnia would not remain in

19     Yugoslavia, Dr. Karadzic favoured a separate Bosnian Serb entity in which

20     the Serbs would be able to govern themselves politically, rather than

21     being under the political control of the Bosnian Muslims.  Dr. Karadzic

22     always expressed the wish that Muslims and Croats would live in the Serb

23     entity with full respect for their rights, while Serbs who preferred to

24     live in the Bosnian Muslim or Croat entity would be free to do so and to

25     have their rights respected.  This was the principle behind the

Page 34521

 1     Cutileiro Plan to which Dr. Karadzic agreed in March 1992 and which he

 2     supported both privately and publicly.

 3             President Izetbegovic [sic] never heard Dr. Karadzic saying

 4     anything that would lead him to believe that he favoured the expulsion of

 5     Muslims and Croats from the Serb areas of Bosnia.  He was not aware of

 6     any joint criminal enterprise among leaders of the Bosnian Serbs and

 7     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to expel Muslims and Croats from the Serb

 8     areas in Bosnia.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, Mr. Karadzic.  Line 3 should have

10     read "President Bulatovic."  Please continue.

11             THE ACCUSED:  I hope I didn't say that.  President Bulatovic I

12     said, but somebody -- I don't know how it was translated.

13             JUDGE KWON:  You said so.  Please continue.

14             THE ACCUSED:  President Bulatovic is familiar with the strategic

15     goals endorsed by the Bosnian Serb Assembly in May 1992.  He never

16     understood the goal of separation to mean physical separation of ethnic

17     or religious groups through expulsions.  He always understood it to be in

18     the political sense so that Serbs would be able to govern themselves

19     rather than being out-voted by the Muslims.

20             President Bulatovic is aware that during the war in Bosnia,

21     members of the population of all ethnic groups suffered expulsions.  He

22     does not believe that this resulted from these policy of

23     Radovan Karadzic.  Instead, it resulted from the collective mentality of

24     the population, who reacted instinctively when war broke out because of

25     what they had experienced in the Second World War, when the Ustashas,

Page 34522

 1     aided by the Muslims, killed many Serb civilians in villages throughout

 2     Bosnia.  When the war broke out in Bosnia, it was impossible for

 3     Dr. Karadzic or any other political leader to control the population to

 4     prevent such crimes.

 5             President Bulatovic had many conversations with Dr. Karadzic

 6     about the shelling of Sarajevo.  Dr. Karadzic recognised the political

 7     liability and damage that the shelling did to the cause of Bosnian Serbs

 8     in the eye of the world.  He told President Bulatovic that when he had

 9     inquired of General Mladic and the Bosnian Serb army whether the shelling

10     could be stopped, he was told that the shelling was necessary to avoid

11     the Serb positions being overrun by the Bosnian Muslim army, which would

12     then attack Serb civilians in the suburbs of Sarajevo.

13             Dr. Karadzic and President Bulatovic also discussed allegations

14     frequently made by international negotiators that the shelling was not

15     limited to repulsing military attacks but was aimed at the civilian

16     areas.  Dr. Karadzic told him that he had banned shelling of civilian

17     areas on a number of occasions and had done everything he could to

18     prevent the unnecessary or disproportionate shelling of Sarajevo.

19             The shelling of the Markale Market in Sarajevo on

20     5th of February, 1994, was discussed at the Supreme Defence Council

21     meeting on 7th of February, 1994.  General Perisic, the Chief of Staff of

22     the Yugoslav national army, said:

23             "Over there in Republika Srpska they say that they are certainly

24     not the ones who did it, and the likelihood is small."

25             Perisic went on to report that:

Page 34523

 1             "Our military experts claim that this is impossible.  We assume

 2     that the same was done in Vase Miskina Street - that the explosive was

 3     prepared ahead of time and placed in a number of spots and that at a

 4     given moment the signal was given to set it off when the largest number

 5     of people were there."

 6             In August 1992, the issue of detention camps in BH came to the

 7     forefront of negotiations after the news media wrote about those camps.

 8     When reports of mistreatment of persons in those camps surfaced, he

 9     discussed this with Radovan Karadzic.  Dr. Karadzic appeared to be

10     surprised at the mistreatment.  He told President Bulatovic that he had

11     guarantees that the refugees in the camps would be taken care of and

12     treated according to the Geneva Conventions.

13             President Bulatovic spoke with Radovan Karadzic about the issue

14     of paramilitaries.  Dr. Karadzic didn't want the paramilitary groups in

15     Bosnia and they caused great problems for the local Bosnian Serb

16     authorities and the Serb citizens, as well Dr. Karadzic wanted to get rid

17     of those people but simply didn't have the ability to do it.

18             In 1994, President Bulatovic became aware that a rift had

19     developed between President Karadzic and General Mladic.  During sessions

20     of the Supreme Defence Council in 1994, which is a body of Yugoslav

21     defence system, they approved some personnel actions designed to pension

22     off generals who were believed to support President Karadzic, such as

23     General Stanislav Galic.  In a discussion on 11th of July, 1994, they

24     were told that General Mladic had proposed pensioning some generals who

25     had "turned to the Karadzic option."

Page 34524

 1             As the war went on, President Karadzic lost a lot of his

 2     political power.  General Mladic had become an icon, and the

 3     Bosnian Serb Assembly was dominated by the representatives of the people

 4     who were manning the trenches and who were against all forms of

 5     compromise.  At one point it seemed that President Karadzic had lost

 6     control over General Mladic and the VRS.

 7             President Bulatovic got to know Radovan Karadzic quite well over

 8     the years 1991-1997.  He never heard him express any hatred for Muslims

 9     or Croats or saying anything which would lead him to believe that

10     Dr. Karadzic was in favour of crimes committed against people from those

11     groups.  He can say with absolute certainty that Radovan Karadzic would

12     never have been in favour of executing prisoners, whether in Srebrenica

13     or anywhere else.

14             President Bulatovic was present during negotiations in Belgrade

15     in July 1996 when United States' diplomat Richard Holbrooke came to

16     Belgrade to negotiate for the resignation of Radovan Karadzic as part of

17     the implementation of the Dayton Peace Agreement.  He personally heard

18     Richard Holbrooke say that he had the guarantee of the United States

19     president that Karadzic would not prosecuted by The Hague Tribunal if he

20     resigns and withdrew from politics.

21             [No interpretation]

22             JUDGE KWON:  It seems that the interpreters took part of your

23     summary so they didn't interpret your last words.  Could you repeat it.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  [In English]

25     President Bulatovic was present during negotiations in Belgrade in

Page 34525

 1     July 1996 when United States' diplomat Richard Holbrooke came to Belgrade

 2     to negotiate for the resignation of Radovan Karadzic as part of the

 3     implementation of the Dayton Peace Agreement.  President Bulatovic

 4     personally heard Richard Holbrooke say that he had the guarantee of the

 5     United States president that Karadzic would not be prosecuted at

 6     The Hague Tribunal if he resigned and withdrew from politics.

 7             And what probably was not caught was that I said that this is

 8     summary and I don't have any questions for now.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, indeed.

10             Mr. Bulatovic, as you have noted, your evidence in this case has

11     been admitted in writing in lieu of your oral testimony.  Now you'll be

12     cross-examined by the representative of the Office of the Prosecutor,

13     Madam Uertz-Retzlaff.

14             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I had actually

15     expected that one or two documents would be addressed viva voce, but

16     that's obviously not happening.  Okay.  Thank you.

17                           Cross-examination by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

18        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Bulatovic.

19        A.   Thank you.

20        Q.   Mr. Bulatovic, in your statement, paragraphs 24 through to 26,

21     you referred to the shelling of Sarajevo, and in this context you

22     referred to the shorthand notes from the session of the council of

23     co-ordination of state policy held on 18th August 1992.  To you and

24     Milan Panic and the others present, Mr. Karadzic would say that he was

25     not in control of the guns and parts of the VRS and they acted on their

Page 34526

 1     own; correct?

 2        A.   The question is too broad.  I'm not sure exactly what you're

 3     asking me.

 4        Q.   I was asking you whether Mr. Karadzic when -- when addressed on

 5     certain events during meetings, he would say that he was not in control

 6     of the guns - for instance, the ones in Sarajevo - and he were not -- and

 7     certain parts of the VRS acted on their own.  Isn't that what he at times

 8     would say to either you or other people?

 9        A.   If you're asking me whether the stenogram faithfully reflects the

10     discussion, yes, I confirm that it does.  And if I understand your

11     question correctly, it was not just on that occasion but on numerous

12     other occasion that we faced the fact that there was a civil war in

13     Bosnia and that it was not possible to establish control and command over

14     each individual unit.  I don't believe that General Mladic could have

15     done that either and especially not the political leader who was there.

16        Q.   Mr. Bulatovic, when you say these kind of things, you rely on

17     claims that the -- that Mr. Karadzic and other members of the

18     Bosnian Serb leadership basically put forward to you in such discussions;

19     right?  You were not yourself there to make your own observations?

20        A.   If you permit me, my source of information was not just from

21     contacts with Mr. Karadzic.  At that time there was a conference on the

22     former Yugoslavia, the section for Bosnia and Herzegovina, there were

23     international mediators.  At the time Lord Owen had a leading role

24     together with Cyrus Vance, and then after he left that post we had

25     Mr. Stoltenberg.  Numerous times in Geneva while we were trying to find a

Page 34527

 1     peaceful solution we faced the fact that shelling was going on.  We

 2     sought confirmation also from independent organs.  We wanted the shelling

 3     to stop, thus we did not just have to believe one side.  But according to

 4     UN sources as well and those of the observer missions it was evident that

 5     the shelling of Sarajevo was going on outside of any kind of logic or

 6     plan.  This did not cause only us to be concerned but also the peace

 7     mediators.  We remember the sincere --

 8        Q.   Let me --

 9        A.   -- horror by Lord Owen -- from Lord Owen particularly --

10        Q.   Let me interrupt you.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Let me interrupt you, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.  The

12     Chamber will rise for five minutes.

13             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Okay.

14                           --- Break taken at 2.19 p.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 2.24 p.m.

16             JUDGE KWON:  For record, we are now sitting in full Bench.

17             Please continue, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

18             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19        Q.   Mr. Bulatovic, I had interrupted you because we have only very

20     little time here and I hadn't asked you about the negotiations with the

21     internationals and what they told you.  So I would rather prefer that you

22     stick and answer questions very precisely and the exact question asked.

23             Let me put to you, you yourself, you noticed during meetings or

24     negotiations with Mr. Karadzic and the Bosnian Serb leadership that when

25     they were under pressure they sometimes turned to political manoeuvring

Page 34528

 1     and even told the truth.  Did you notice that -- untruth, sorry, the

 2     untruth.  Did you remember that?

 3        A.   I tried to answer your questions with the best intention.  I

 4     didn't mean to give a broader answer.  But I'm just saying that at the

 5     peace negotiations these precisely were the topics:  The shelling of

 6     Sarajevo.  The shells were being counted and it was not something that

 7     only we did; the entire conference on Bosnia and Herzegovina was doing

 8     that and it was also the UN monitoring system that was doing that too.

 9        Q.   Let me interrupt you again.  My question was whether you in your

10     dealings with Mr. Karadzic and the other Bosnian Serb leaders noticed

11     that at times they were telling the untruth or resorted to political

12     manoeuvring.  That was the question, and it's actually you either did or

13     you did not.

14        A.   But I am experiencing that as a leading question.  I would be

15     very grateful if you would help me by telling me what was the sense of

16     that, is anybody speaking the truth or not in a situation when a city was

17     being shelled and when lives were being lost and considerable damage was

18     being inflicted.

19        Q.   Let me interrupt you --

20        A.   I personally cannot put these things together.

21        Q.   Let me interrupt you again.  The Prosecution is entitled to ask

22     leading questions and that's what I'm doing, and I was actually hoping

23     you had answered the question but you didn't.

24             Let me --

25             JUDGE KWON:  I think witness was confused with the -- with your

Page 34529

 1     previous question.

 2             The question was whether Mr. Karadzic and other Bosnian Serb

 3     leaders at times were telling you or the other -- or other representative

 4     telling untruth?  That's a general question.

 5             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Can you answer the question, Mr. Bulatovic?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to my information, I

 8     don't think so.  I believed what they were saying and the reason that I

 9     did so was that other information and other sources confirmed such a

10     state of affairs.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Back to you, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

12             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13             Can we please have 65 ter 24596B in e-court.

14        Q.   And as it is coming up it's a part of your book:  "Rules of

15     Silence," in which you describe the conflict in the former Yugoslavia and

16     your observations.  And this particular part here of the book refers to

17     your description of an event that took place in Geneva on the night of

18     the 19th of January, 1994.  I don't -- yeah.  Yes.  You describe here in

19     this -- on this page you describe here your negotiations between the Serb

20     and the Croat side and an agreement was reached on a Serb proposal of an

21     interethnic demarcation map and that the next step to be taken was that

22     cartographers from both sides were preparing a detailed map that would

23     take into account the Croatian territorial request.  You remember this

24     situation?

25        A.   I remember it very well.  I'm the author of the book.  Of course

Page 34530

 1     I re-read it and I think that it faithfully reflects the events at the

 2     time and how I experienced them.  But if you permit me, I am saying

 3     something else here than what you are putting to me in the question from

 4     a little bit earlier.  It wasn't the cartographers who were supposed to

 5     determine the borders.  It clearly states here that they tried,

 6     President Karadzic and other members of the Serbian delegation, to get

 7     the territory of 17.5 per cent which would satisfy the demands of the

 8     Croatian President Tudjman in the sense of the possibility of signing an

 9     historic agreement on co-operation between Serbs and Croats.  This

10     passage for me and as well as in another incident are an illustration of

11     tragic fate of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the major responsibility --

12        Q.   Let me stop you.

13        A.   -- of their political representatives.  If you look carefully --

14        Q.   Let me stop you.  What I was actually referring to is that the

15     remaining step to make is prepare the maps that everybody had agreed

16     upon, and that is actually described here on this page.  And you describe

17     also on this page that Radovan Karadzic said that there was no need for

18     them, the cartographers, to work together and that the whole job was

19     going to be completed by the Republika Srpska experts.  And then you say:

20             "I believe that Tudjman was not really closed the door behind him

21     when Radovan Karadzic asked:  'Does anyone have an eraser?'  Milosevic

22     and I could not believe that he was going to erase the line that they had

23     just agreed on ..."

24             That is what the situation was at that time; correct?

25        A.   No, not at all.  Obviously we are reading the same text in two

Page 34531

 1     different ways.  I'm describing here the drama that is supposed to result

 2     in the drawing of maps.  It says that one move on the 1:50.000 map with a

 3     pencil is drawing a line on a territory that is soaked with blood and

 4     suffering.  This is obviously an honest attempt, but it's also obvious

 5     that this war that was tearing up Bosnia and Herzegovina with casualties

 6     and victims on all sides made it impossible to make a compromise.  It's

 7     not about speaking the truth or lying here --

 8        Q.   Let me interrupt you.

 9        A.   -- it's about being able to withstand the burden of loss of life.

10        Q.   Let me interrupt you.  I mean, I just read to you your own words

11     that you have written in the book and we can see that here in both

12     languages.  Do you deny that it was like this, how you describe it in the

13     book, that Radovan Karadzic as soon as Tudjman was out of the door erased

14     the line that they just had agreed upon?

15        A.   Now I don't understand what you're saying, really.

16        Q.   Mr. Bulatovic, I simply read to you what you had written in your

17     book, and I assumed that what you had written here is your observation at

18     the time and it had been like you had written it here.

19        A.   I'm not denying any of what is written here, but I cannot agree

20     with your interpretation of one sentence, that you have the right to put

21     to me as the Office of the Prosecutor.  You can interrupt me even now,

22     but I don't see in this sentence what you are suggesting.  This is not a

23     story about a liar who is erasing things from an agreement.  This is a

24     long story.  There are many pages before and many pages after that show

25     with what difficulty, how arduously we were trying to reach peace in

Page 34532

 1     Bosnia.  I cannot agree with you interpretation that this text shows me

 2     depicting Radovan Karadzic as a liar.  It may be your interpretation, but

 3     I cannot agree.

 4             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I would like to tender this

 5     excerpt.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll admit this page.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6159, Your Honours.

10             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we please have 65 ter 24596A displayed

11     in e-court.

12        Q.   And it is another part of your book and it is an excerpt that

13     deals with the negotiations on the Vance-Owen Plan in 1993 and it is

14     quite a number of pages, but on the first page and the second paragraph

15     you state that:

16             The Yugoslav side truly wanted peace and were ready to make any

17     reasonable compromise in order to achieve it.  And, Mr. Bulatovic, the

18     reasonable compromise that you actually had seen in the Vance-Owen Plan

19     in 1993, the Bosnian Serb leadership and Mr. Karadzic did not share

20     your -- this view, that it is a reasonable compromise; correct?

21        A.   Yes, that's correct.

22        Q.   And you also say here your own assessment that the Vance -- it

23     was your own assessment that the Vance-Owen Plan would protect the

24     interest of the Bosnian Serbs, end the war, and set a legal procedure for

25     resolving the remaining disputed issues; correct?

Page 34533

 1        A.   Yes, that's correct with the proviso that I personally supported

 2     every peace plan, beginning with the Lord Carrington plan and ending with

 3     the Dayton Accords, because I believed and I still believe that a bad

 4     peace plan is still better than a good war.

 5        Q.   And as I read in your book, and we can move on to the second page

 6     in both languages, that you and Mr. Milosevic did all you could to

 7     convince the Bosnian Serb leaders to accept the plan.  And when they left

 8     in the evening, you actually understood that they had accepted it and

 9     were finally agreeing to it; correct?

10        A.   Yes, that's true too.

11             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we move to the next page.

12        Q.   And we look at the last paragraph in the B/C/S and also in the

13     English.  But immediately afterwards, Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik

14     broke their promise and they declared to be opposed to the agreement.

15     That is how it is described in your book.  Is that also your recollection

16     now?

17        A.   Yes.  It is said in the book that the MPs who were supposed to

18     make their decision were warriors.  I'm very sorry that plan failed.

19     Together with the then-Greek Prime Minister Mitsotakis,

20     President Milosevic, I invested a lot of effort for that peace plan to

21     succeed, but we failed unfortunately.  But I don't think it was a game

22     played by Dr. Radovan Karadzic, president of Republika Srpska.  I believe

23     it was a kind of madness that reigned in their parliament at the time and

24     all of that is written here.

25        Q.   Yes, I'm not -- I'm just going a little bit further in the text.

Page 34534

 1     You also describe here that you had been following this in Athens,

 2     further negotiations involving the Greek Prime Minister Mitsotakis, and

 3     at that time you -- it ended with Mr. Karadzic signing and provisionally

 4     accepting the plan.  And it also refers here to the fact that you,

 5     Mr. Milosevic, and Prime Minister Mitsotakis attended then the

 6     RS Assembly Session that followed in which the signature was not

 7     ratified; correct?

 8        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 9             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we move further to page 4 in both

10     languages and it's the third paragraph in the English and the last

11     paragraph in the B/C/S.

12        Q.   You describe here what was going on on this Assembly session and

13     you state in the book Mr. Karadzic did not support the plan as you, and

14     obviously the other participants of the delegation from Belgrade had

15     expected but rather spoke to the contrary.

16             That is what happened; correct?

17        A.   The book reflects my impression that I still hold today, that

18     President Karadzic, cunningly and in a veiled way was a man under great

19     pressure and against signing that plan.  I know that it was against his

20     convictions, against his deep beliefs, but we exerted so much pressure on

21     him in Athens that he accepted to inform in a skilful political way his

22     own Assembly.

23        Q.   And you -- further in your book you describe how after the

24     speeches that you, the delegation, from Belgrade, in particular

25     Mr. Milosevic, gave, the atmosphere changed and you had basically the

Page 34535

 1     hope that the plan was -- would be accepted.  And then there was a break

 2     for a caucuses meeting.  And then -- now I want to quote to you - it's

 3     from page 5 in the English and it's the same page in the B/C/S - you say:

 4             "The good opportunity for peace got lost because the session was

 5     interrupted for a caucuses meeting to which you had no access and you

 6     call it political manoeuvring so that the plan was not accepted."

 7             Is that a correct description of what you felt at the time, that

 8     you were outmanoeuvred on purpose?

 9        A.   You could say that's true, yes.

10        Q.   And you also described further in your book that the same

11     repeated itself with the Contact Group plan in 1994, and here you say in

12     relation to July 1994 you say:

13             "Even this time we were assured that the decision on the peace

14     plan would be positive.  The difference this time was that we had more

15     reserve towards the sincerity of the RS leadership's intentions."

16             Is that also how you felt about it?

17        A.   That's correct.

18             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I would like to tender this

19     excerpt.

20             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive it.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6160, Your Honours.

23             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Mr. --

24             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, if it is coming from a same -- but

25     why don't we add this part to the previous exhibit instead of giving a

Page 34536

 1     separate number.

 2             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I have no objections.  Only we gave it a

 3     separate number because we felt it would maybe be easier.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll add that part to the previous exhibit,

 5     i.e., Exhibit P6159.

 6             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we now please have 65 ter 24585 on the

 7     screen.

 8        Q.   And as it is coming up, it is a transcript of the raw materials

 9     gathered by the BBC for their video:  "Death of Yugoslavia."  It has

10     disappeared.  Okay.  Thank you.  You remember that you took part in this

11     series of interviews that were conducted on the "Death of Yugoslavia"

12     with quite a number of protagonists?

13        A.   Yes, I remember this as well as I remember regretting it.  It's

14     the kind of journalism where you talk for two hours and somebody cuts out

15     five minutes from that, the bit that suits them.  Let me just look at

16     this text which is in front of me in English, which is not a problem, but

17     I'd just like to see when this was.

18        Q.   It is actually to me also not clear when this -- when you had

19     these talks with a journalist, but it is the raw material.  It's not the

20     few minutes that were basically later on aired.  It's the entire

21     transcript of the talks and it's only identified on -- according to

22     writers, so ...

23             MR. ROBINSON:  There is a date at the very bottom.  I don't

24     know ...

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 34537

 1             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Oh, yes, October -- 7 October 1994.

 2        Q.   Does that match your own memory on when these talks took place?

 3        A.   But the BBC series called "Death of Yugoslavia" was filmed and

 4     broadcast after 2000.  That's why this date in 1994 confuses me.  That

 5     time when I talked to the BBC was after I stopped my involvement in

 6     politics.

 7             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I also cannot clarify this now.

 8        Q.   So you remember it was in 2000 or when did you stop?

 9        A.   Looking at this text, it's the BBC story about the death of the

10     League of Communists of Yugoslavia, and logically this refers to the

11     communist party of Yugoslavia, because in 1994 there were other, more

12     important topics than the central committee and the 14th Congress of the

13     party which was in 1989.

14        Q.   Let me perhaps clarify something.  This is quite an extensive

15     transcript, and according to this transcript you addressed a lot of

16     topics.  And we are not concerned with these early topics that obviously

17     were touched upon with the journalist, at least according to this.  Let's

18     move to page 28 and on this page you speak about an event that you may

19     remember where there was the bombing of Gorazde in April 1994.  And here

20     we have -- we have here -- and it says here 8 October 1994.  We have here

21     the event that you yourself heard from the police that Gorazde was being

22     bombarded.  Do you remember that event?

23        A.   Now reading this, yes, I believe it's fairly reflected.

24        Q.   And you said here yourself you and Mr. Milosevic were stunned

25     that such a stupid move could have been timed in such a way to destroy

Page 34538

 1     all diplomatic efforts invested before that and that you then confronted

 2     Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik.  You did that, did you -- didn't you?

 3        A.   If you go through the document, I'll be able to confirm or deny.

 4     But I cannot see yet.

 5        Q.   Yes.  Can we go to the next page, please.  Here in the upper part

 6     you see basically how Mr. Milosevic and you were upset about what had

 7     happened and that you basically called them and that they first denied

 8     that they were attacking Gorazde, and when you confronted them with proof

 9     they said they would stop it.  Do you remember that situation?

10        A.   Let's say that's the way it was.  Unfortunately there were many

11     similar situations.  This is an overture into the NATO bombing of the VRS

12     positions that followed later.  Yes, that would be my answer.

13             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I would like to tender the

14     pages that I just referred to; that is, pages 28 and 29.  I will also use

15     another excerpt so --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Any objection, Mr. Robinson?

17             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE KWON:  We'll admit these two pages.  We'll add another --

19             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.

20             JUDGE KWON:  -- when you present it.

21             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you, Your Honour.  We have to go back

22     to page 22.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Just -- let's give the number first.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6160, Your Honours.

25             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Page 22.

Page 34539

 1        Q.   And you describe here and tell the journalist the situation that

 2     we actually spoke about a bit earlier, namely, the talks you had with

 3     Mr. Karadzic in Belgrade the day before the Bijeljina Assembly session.

 4     And you mention here that you wrote a letter to Bijeljina and the key

 5     argument in the letter as it -- as you say here, "signed by Cosic,

 6     Milosevic, and me was that they had no right to decide on the fate of all

 7     of us, especially when they are not as endangered as they had represented

 8     it to their own people."

 9             What you have mentioned here is -- did happen and you fought

10     about that; right?

11        A.   Yes, that was a period of great political divisions between the

12     leadership of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the leadership of --

13     I just wanted to inform this Court that in that period Serbia and

14     Montenegro were placed under very hard sanctions.  We were not able to

15     buy food or medicine for our babies and we felt our very existence was in

16     danger.  It was a completely different feeling than the feeling people in

17     Bosnia and Herzegovina had.  And here speaking of political differences,

18     I cannot judge who was right and who was wrong.  Our anxiety in Serbia

19     and Montenegro was due to the fact that we were placed in unbearable

20     living conditions.  But still, we had peace, whereas over there there was

21     war.

22             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I would like to tender the

23     pages 21 and 22 of this --

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

25             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  -- and that's all pages for this document.

Page 34540

 1             JUDGE KWON:  They will be added to P6160.

 2             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

 3        Q.   Mr. Bulatovic, I will now refer to paragraph 20 of your statement

 4     where you say that all ethnic groups suffered expulsion and you also --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Before that.

 6             Mr. Bulatovic, do you have your statement with you in hard copy?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 9             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

10        Q.   And you also state that this ethnic -- this expulsion was not the

11     result of Mr. Karadzic's policy but rather resulted from the collective

12     mentality of the population at that time and you refer to some details.

13     Mr. Bulatovic, is it your evidence that the expulsion and crimes that the

14     Serbs, the Croats, and the Muslims suffered during the period from 1991

15     through to 1995 in Croatia and in Bosnia are not the result of the

16     policies and the actions of their respective leaderships?  Is that your

17     evidence?

18        A.   Very strong lifelong conviction is that it was a consequence of

19     the civil war that raged in those areas, and that civil war was due to

20     the uncontrolled and unlawful breakup of the previous state; that is to

21     say the expulsions and the crimes are a consequence of the fact that

22     there was a civil war not that there was any plan.  I am proud - and I

23     want to emphasise - that my country, Montenegro, was an open door to many

24     people who found refuge there.  700.000 inhabitants of the country I'm

25     proud to lead received 72.000 refugees from Bosnia-Herzegovina, including

Page 34541

 1     30 per cent Muslims.  They found shelter in Montenegro and thanks to the

 2     United Nations -- of course you are entitled to.

 3        Q.   Yes, I interrupted here just because of time concerns.  I fully

 4     understand that you wish to make this point clear, but unfortunately I

 5     have no time to do that.  So -- but it's a bit not exactly answer my

 6     question, but let me put this to you --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we continue tomorrow, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

 8             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, can I ask two more questions

 9     because then this is finished?  But I can also do it tomorrow, whatever

10     you prefer.

11             JUDGE KWON:  If it is only two questions, then we can continue

12     with the indulgence of the staff, interpreters and court reporter.

13             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you very much, Your Honour, just so

14     that it is finished.

15        Q.   Are you saying that the population, no matter what ethnicity, are

16     expelling and killing each other on a mass scale in a huge territory

17     because it's their mentality and because it's a war and not their

18     leaderships or the people who are directing the armies?

19        A.   If I understand your question correctly, then I would say I don't

20     believe there was a plan or that any side had a possibility, including

21     Serbs, Croats, and Muslims, to order crimes and expulsions.  I am sure

22     and I know from the entire history of Bosnia-Herzegovina and from the

23     many decades of peaceful coexistence that when a war begins, when the

24     earth moves under them, people are capable of crimes and they flee to

25     territories where they feel safe.  I cannot believe that there was a plan

Page 34542

 1     because I know Bosnia too well, its history, and its people.  I talked to

 2     all of those people, including President Izetbegovic and Mate Boban, the

 3     Bosnian Croat leader.  We spent many years together.  I know

 4     President Karadzic very well.  I would bet everything I earned in my life

 5     that these people were not criminals.  They were in difficult positions

 6     in very difficult times, horrible times.  And believe me, every 50 years

 7     in the history of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Mrs. Uertz-Retzlaff, such crimes

 8     and such expulsions repeat themselves.

 9             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, that is -- that concludes this

10     chapter.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

12             Mr. Bulatovic, we'll continue tomorrow.  I'd like to advise

13     you -- I think you understand English.  I wanted to advise you not to

14     discuss with anybody else about your testimony.  Thank you.

15             The hearing is adjourned.

16                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.01 p.m.,

17                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 1st day of

18                           March, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.