1 Thursday, 28 February 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone.
7 Would the witness make the solemn declaration, please.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
9 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
10 WITNESS: NOVICA ANDRIC
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Andric. Please be seated and make
13 yourself comfortable.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 JUDGE KWON: Before you commence your evidence, Mr. Andric, I
16 must draw your attention to a certain Rule of Procedure and Evidence here
17 at the International Tribunal, that is, Rule 90(E). Under this Rule you
18 may object to answering any question from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecution,
19 or even from the Judges if you believe that your answer might incriminate
20 you in a criminal offence. In this context, "incriminate" means saying
21 something that might amount to an admission of guilt for a criminal
22 offence or saying something that might provide evidence that you might
23 have committed a criminal offence. However, should you think that an
24 answer might incriminate you and, as a consequence, you refuse to answer
25 the question, I must let you know that the Tribunal has the power to
1 compel you to answer the question. But in that situation, the Tribunal
2 would ensure that your testimony compelled under such circumstances would
3 not be used in any case that might be laid against you for any offence
4 save and except the offence of giving false testimony. Do you understand
5 what I have just told you?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Andric.
8 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Excellencies.
10 Welcome, Judge Lattanzi, Your Excellency. Good morning to all.
11 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Andric.
13 A. Good morning.
14 Q. Mr. Andric, did you give my Defence team a statement?
15 A. Yes.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have in e-court
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Do you see that statement of yours in front of you on the screen?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Please, both you and I should pause between question and answer
22 and we should speak slowly so that everything can be recorded in the
23 transcript and that the interpreters can interpret everything that we
24 say. Did you read and sign this statement?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you. Could we please take a look at the last page now.
2 Could the witness identify his signature. Is that your signature?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you. Did this statement faithfully reflect what you said
5 to the Defence team in response to their questions?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you. If I were to put the same questions to you today,
8 would your answers basically be the same?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I'd like to
12 tender this 92 ter package.
13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson.
14 MR. ROBINSON: Yes. Thank you, Mr. President. There are eight
15 exhibits and we would ask that they be added to our 65 ter list, as they
16 were not -- we hadn't interviewed this witness as of the time we filed
17 that list.
18 JUDGE KWON: Did you say "eight"?
19 MR. ROBINSON: That's correct -- actually seven.
20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
21 Any objections, Mr. Zec?
22 MR. ZEC: No objections, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE KWON: We'll admit them, but as to the photographs referred
24 to in para 13 I would like to ask the accused to clarify with the witness
25 when these pictures were taken and whether it -- and what part has been
2 We'll give the numbers for the statement as well as the
3 associated exhibits.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, the statement 65 ter 1D7813 will be
5 Exhibit D3038, and the seven exhibits will be Exhibits D3039 through
6 Exhibit D3045 respectively.
7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
8 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Now I'm going to read
10 out the summary of Mr. Novica Andric's statement in the English language.
11 [In English] Novica Andric was born on 28th of May, 1962, in
12 Kosovo village, Rogatica municipality. He finished his primary school in
13 Rogatica and there he continued with secondary school for car mechanics,
14 and then he finished the traffic and transport technical school in
15 Gorazde. In 1983 he went to Kraljevo to do his military service in the
16 JNA in a military traffic police unit.
17 Novica Andric noticed that after the establishment of national
18 parties things at the political, economic, social, and national level
19 suddenly changed and the situation rapidly began to deteriorate. The
20 SDA, Muslim party, was formed in the first half of 1990 and Mr. Andric
21 recalls that the SDS was not formed until much later in early September
22 concerning Rogatica municipality. The first illegal armed unit in the
23 eastern part of Bosnia was formed in Pokrivenik, a Muslim-inhabited
24 village, in late 1990 into early 1991.
25 Many Serbs expected that this situation would be resolved;
1 however, these hopes only lasted until the referendum on the secession of
2 Bosnia and Herzegovina from Yugoslavia. After this referendum,
3 nationalism increased and it was apparent to Mr. Novica Andric that
4 Serbs, Croats, and Muslims could no longer live together in harmony.
5 Many Muslims said that Bosnia belonged to them and that they were going
6 to have it.
7 In Rogatica there was a total distrust among the people, and as a
8 precaution the Serbs started organising village guards at night using
9 hunting weapons which they legally possessed. This was done because from
10 the beginning of the second half of 1991 volleys from automatic weapons
11 could often be heard from Muslim villages.
12 Novica Andric joined the Serbian Territorial Defence around
13 20th of April, 1992, and was tasked with protecting the villages that
14 faced the Muslim villages as these villages had armed very early and
15 possessed all kind of infantry weapons. At around the same time the
16 weapons of the former Rogatica Territorial Defence were distributed to
17 the Territorial Defence. All the weapons kept -- were kept in the JNA
18 depots for safety reasons. The Territorial Defence was not armed by the
19 JNA, that merely stored their weapons in the depots.
20 From the beginning of May 1992 there were constant provocations
21 from the Muslim villages. They often fired at the Serbian homes using
22 infantry weapons, anti-aircraft machine-guns, and mortars. A request was
23 made by the Serbian Territorial Defence that the weapons be handed over
24 and the fighters would be guaranteed peace and security; however,
25 Mr. Alajbegovic, the leader of the Muslim units, refused and continued
1 with the provocations. The Territorial Defence command made a decision
2 to carry out an attack on the Muslim strongholds in Muslim villages;
3 however, the Serbs from the neighbouring hamlets warned the Muslims and
4 they withdrew.
5 When the Serbian Territorial Defence entered Madjer village,
6 Fejzo Hurko was captured along with his wife and son and taken to
7 Novica Andric's village and told to go to the garage next to his house.
8 They were provided with shelter so that nothing would happen to them.
9 They only stayed there for 15 to 20 minutes before they were taken to the
10 school centre to be housed. During the period of time that they spent in
11 the garage, nobody maltreated them or tortured them.
12 Novica Andric is aware that his father, Miodrag, was captured by
13 the Muslims on his way home from work and taken to prison. He was then
14 sentenced to 20 years in prison for the alleged killings of the three
15 Muslims and the alleged incident in the garage. He was acquitted after
16 the successful appeal.
17 In relation to the secondary school centre, Novica Andric was
18 aware that this was a holding centre for all families leaving the town
19 centre, both Muslims and Serb families stayed there together. As
20 Novica Andric passed the centre, he saw between 25 to 30 men playing
21 five-a-side football.
22 Novica Andric was re-called to the line of defence as a driver,
23 and in the course of his job he visited Rasadnik detention facility. He
24 has no knowledge that detainees were subjected to physical torture whilst
25 staying at the facility. Both Serbs and Muslim detainees were held at
1 Rasadnik. During his first few visits to the facility he personally saw
2 that the detainees were given the same food that the detention facility
3 staff and the soldiers of the brigade ate. He was aware that the
4 detainees kept cows for food and assisted in chopping wood for working --
5 and working in the barn.
6 And that would be the summary, and as you decided I would like to
7 call these photo -- did I understand well?
8 JUDGE KWON: Before doing so.
9 Yes, Mr. Zec.
10 MR. ZEC: Mr. President, I know that Karadzic's summary is not
11 evidence, but he said that case against witness's father included
12 incident in the garage, but judgement that will be in evidence is not
13 included in that judgement, only the crime of killing civilians in this
14 village Bjelogorci in June 1992.
15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, do you agree with Mr. Zec's comment?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I know that Mico Andric, the father
17 of Novica Andric, was accused and sentenced for the garage, but later on
18 he was acquitted. However, I have not studied the judgement. I'll
19 ask --
20 JUDGE KWON: After having seen the photo, why don't we take a
21 look at the judgement.
22 Please proceed.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'd like to call up ...
24 [Defence counsel confer]
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have in e-court
1 1D12014. Thank you.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Could you please tell us what this photograph shows and when it
4 was taken?
5 A. The photograph was taken during the reconstruction of what
6 happened in the village of Bjelogorci. This is the garage where false
7 witnesses said that they had been mistreated.
8 Q. Thank you. Are there any significant changes in terms of what
9 this garage looks like compared to the time about which these witnesses
11 A. No changes. There was just a regular garage door, and the garage
12 was used and is used to this day as a summer kitchen.
13 Q. Thank you. When did that happen? What time did they mention?
14 A. End of May.
15 Q. End of May?
16 A. End of May.
17 Q. At that time was the summer kitchen already being used?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Were they served anything and where was that prepared?
20 A. They were served coffee in this summer kitchen that was there
21 then and is there to this day, and they were kept there only for
22 15 hours [as interpreted] until vehicles came from Rogatica which is 5
23 kilometres away from the village.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
25 be asked to speak closer to the microphone.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 12015, could we please have that
3 JUDGE KWON: Just, could you remind me of the time of
4 reconstruction, Mr. Andric?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The time of reconstruction was the
6 month of May or June, I think. They were roughly trying to look at the
7 period when that had actually happened.
8 JUDGE KWON: What year, Mr. Andric?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was 1999, 8 or 9 before
10 the acquittal, the judgement of acquittal. All international
11 institutions were present there, all institutions that were present in
12 Bosnia and Herzegovina then.
13 JUDGE KWON: As the witness testified, if there were no serious
14 changes, you can skip the photos and move on to your next topic.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Whose false testimony was not accepted? Which testimony was
18 rejected when your father was acquitted?
19 A. Omanovic Hamdija's testimony was rejected and Hamdija's brother's
20 testimony and Sefik Hurko, father's name Fejzo.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
22 speak into the microphone. Thank you.
23 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
24 When you speak, could you kindly speak to the microphone so that
25 the interpreters could hear you well.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, yes, yes.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Please, let us just clarify this: Which person by the last name
4 of Hurko testified and whose testimony was rejected?
5 A. Sefik Hurko, he gave false testimony and the cantonal court in
6 Sarajevo assessed that these were false statements and that resulted in
7 the judgement of acquittal later, the one that is presented here.
8 Q. What about his father, did he testify?
9 A. His father testified in Sarajevo, over there. He did not testify
10 at this trial of Miodrag Andric, and their statements differed.
11 Q. Which one of the two was in the garage during those 20 minutes?
12 A. Hurko Sefik, Hurko Fejzo, and Fejzo's wife. That was very brief,
13 until the vehicle came for them, Ljubomir Cerovic, the then-assistant for
15 Q. Could you help us clarify this: Your father, was he accused for
16 the garage and was the garage included in this judgement of acquittal?
17 A. Yes, he had been convicted because of the alleged garage and the
18 alleged killing of civilians. After the reconstruction and after the
19 witnesses were heard again, it was proven that the testimony provided had
20 been false.
21 Q. And what does the judgement of acquittal refer to?
22 A. The garage and the killing of three civilians, the alleged
23 killing of three civilians.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If the Trial Chamber is satisfied,
1 I have no further questions at this point in time.
2 JUDGE KWON: I asked you to check with the -- if the judgement
3 refers to the garage part as well. Is there a way to check it now?
4 MR. ROBINSON: Actually, Mr. President, I'm reading it as we
5 speak and it appears to have dealing with the three -- the killing of
6 three civilians, but I'm not all the way through it, but the -- in the
7 findings themselves he's actually acquitted of the killings of three
8 civilians. I don't see any reference to the garage in the findings, but
9 I'm in the process of looking at the statement of reasons.
10 JUDGE KWON: So you agree with Mr. Zec?
11 MR. ROBINSON: So far as I've been able to see, yes. I think
12 that this could be a subject of cross-examination since the witness has
13 given testimony on this subject.
14 JUDGE KWON: But given that Mr. Karadzic made that presentation,
15 I'd like to hear confirmation that he agrees with Mr. Zec. Otherwise he
16 has to go to -- go through the judgement and tell us what part refers to
18 MR. ROBINSON: Okay. Well, it's an 18-page judgement, so would
19 you like to take maybe a five- or ten-minute break so he can read it and
20 satisfy himself what the situation is?
21 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber has no difficulty with it, but it will
22 go to the Defence time. The Chamber will rise for five minutes.
23 --- Break taken at 9.27 a.m.
24 --- On resuming at 9.42 a.m.
25 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
1 Mr. Karadzic, have you done the reading?
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, and we have established what
3 it's about. Can we call up D3043 in e-court, please, the basic court
4 decision of the cantonal court in Sarajevo. Can we look at the following
5 page, please. In the statement of reasons -- and this is the third page
6 in English - in the statement of reasons it says that, it's the fifth or
7 the sixth line, it says:
8 "... the Deputy Cantonal Prosecutor partially modified the
9 indictment at the hearing by indicting the accused Miodrag Andric for the
10 same crime with a partially modified factual description ..." and so on
11 and so forth.
12 Can we now look at page 8 in e-court, please. It's Serbian
13 page 5 and the English page 8.
14 "Sefik Hurko...," here this is the second paragraph in the
16 "Sefik Hurko stated that he was held captive in the garage of the
17 accused ..."
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Now, Mr. Andric, are you able to tell us if your father was
20 sentenced for the garage by the lower court?
21 A. [No interpretation]
22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to repeat his
24 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Andric, because you overlapped with the
25 interpretation, you were not heard by the interpreters. Please repeat
1 your answer and in the future please put a pause before you start
2 answering the question. Yes.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Throughout the trial the garage was
4 mentioned and that was part of the whole case.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Thank you. And do you know in what sense the prosecutor or how
7 the prosecutor amended the indictment during the process?
8 MR. ZEC: Mr. President, this is speculation.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Zec.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I asked him whether he knew. I
11 didn't ask him to speculate. It says here that it was amended and there
12 is no evidence that he was convicted.
13 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
14 Yes, Mr. Zec.
15 MR. ZEC: Mr. Karadzic invites the witness to comment what
16 prosecutor in that case was changing in the indictment or whatever
17 changes he made. That's just not appropriate.
18 JUDGE KWON: I understood the question to be asking the witness
19 whether he knew whether the prosecutor -- the indictment had been
20 amended. I think the witness can answer.
21 Yes, if you can answer, Mr. Andric.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that they dropped the
23 garage in the amendment.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 Your Excellencies, the lower court does not mention it as a part
1 of the conviction, so that's why it was not mentioned in the appeal.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. Andric, was your father found guilty of anything?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 JUDGE KWON: So that's it for your examination-in-chief?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. As for the objection to the
8 judgement, it's a fact that he was not convicted for the garage in the
9 lower court decision, so that's why there was no mention of it by the
10 Defence or the Prosecution.
11 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Thank you.
12 As you have noted, Mr. Andric, your evidence in chief in this
13 case has been admitted in writing, i.e., through your statement in lieu
14 of your oral testimony. Now you will be cross-examined by the
15 Prosecutor, representative of the Office of the Prosecutor, Mr. Zec.
16 MR. ZEC: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 Cross-examination by Mr. Zec:
18 Q. Good morning to you, Mr. Andric.
19 A. Good morning.
20 Q. I think it's already clear, but let me ask you first a couple of
21 background questions. Your father's name is Miodrag Andric, also known
22 as Mico; is it correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Your family house is in the village of Kosovo,
25 Rogatica municipality; this is correct, isn't it?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Next to your family house is the garage where Sefik Hurko,
3 Fejzo Hurko, Izeta Hurko, and Abdulah Hurko were held on or about
4 14 August 1992. This is correct? Is it correct that these people were
6 A. No. It was like this: They were in the garage. They were not
7 detained there. They were staying there. The garage was not locked
8 while they were there, and Sefik, Fejzo Hurko -- Sefik Hurko,
9 Fejzo Hurko, and his wife, Izeta, were there, the three of them. The
10 fourth person was not there, the fourth person that you mentioned.
11 Q. Abdulah Hurko is missing since, so I take it you don't know
12 anything about his whereabouts?
13 A. No, the fourth person was not brought there. That person was not
14 there. I don't know whether that person died during the counter-attack
15 of the forces that were up there. I'm not going into that. These three
16 people, however, were brought to the garage. They were not locked in
17 there. The garage was open throughout that whole time and they stayed
18 there briefly.
19 Q. Among the soldiers who held the Hurko family members were
20 Stojan Perkovic; Brane Krsmanovic; Dragomir Abazovic, also known as
21 Pidje; Danko Neric; and Rajko Kusic. This is correct, is it?
22 A. There was a number of persons, Rajko Kusic, Stojan Perkovic,
23 Krsmanovic, Abazovic; that's it. They did not detain them. They were
24 talking to them.
25 Q. The Hurko family members were held in your garage against their
1 will and they were not allowed to leave; this is correct, isn't it?
2 JUDGE KWON: I think I notice an issue of translation. You are
3 saying "being held," and witness is rebutting or answering "they were not
5 MR. ZEC: I have noted the same issue, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please bear that in mind. Please continue.
7 MR. ZEC:
8 Q. Mr. Andric, can you answer my last question or do I have to
10 A. Could you please repeat it.
11 Q. The Hurko family members, they were held in your garage against
12 their will and they were not allowed to leave, isn't it?
13 A. They were not being held after being captured, after the
14 counter-attack by the Serbian forces. A pistol and two boxes of bullets
15 of 70 pieces each were found on them, so they were armed during capture
16 and they were taken to Rogatica. They were placed there to prevent --
17 among the soldiers there were already people -- those people whose
18 relatives had died. So it was a move to prevent some kind of revenge on
19 them. So they were sheltered there until the vehicle arrived that was
20 going to take them to Rogatica.
21 Q. Mr. Andric, I notice that you're repeating a lot of facts that
22 you --
23 JUDGE KWON: Let me intervene.
24 The question was, Mr. Andric, whether they were allowed to leave
25 when they stayed in your garage.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were allowed to leave, but
2 they had nowhere to go because the village was already under attack.
3 They were safer there than in the zone of -- in the combat zone.
4 JUDGE KWON: Back to you, Mr. Zec.
5 MR. ZEC: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Q. Sefik, Fejzo, and Abdulah, they were beaten and tortured by the
7 soldiers who held them in your garage; this is correct, isn't it?
8 A. No. I said that this fourth person, Abdulah, was not brought to
9 the garage at all. Throughout that whole time when they were there, I
10 was present and I state with certainty that there was no abuse or
12 Q. In 2009 Stojan Perkovic pled guilty before the court of BiH to
13 crimes committed in Rogatica, including those committed in your garage;
14 do you know this?
15 A. I know that he's serving his sentence, but I don't know what acts
16 he was sentenced for.
17 Q. The judgement is in evidence in this case, and it is D01665.
18 But, Mr. Andric, the reality is that Stojan Perkovic pled guilty to and
19 was convicted of this crime that you say never happened; right?
20 A. There was no mistreatment. I don't know what he admitted to in
21 the indictment or of being charged with. I'm not aware that there was
22 any mistreatment in that garage. There is only one truth. I don't know
23 of any other truth, and the truth is as I stated. I'm ready to take the
24 lie-detector test or any other test. If the side that is giving false
25 statements is also prepared to submit themselves to the same test, then
1 we will see what the outcome is.
2 Q. Just to be clear, I take that you're aware that Sefik Hurko was
3 held in your garage again the day after, which would be 15th August 1992.
4 Are you aware of this?
5 A. No. After he was taken away then he did not return to the garage
6 anymore. These are false statements.
7 Q. You told us that you were a driver policeman in the military
8 police of the Rogatica Brigade. Commander of the brigade was
9 Rajko Kusic; this is correct, isn't it?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Ljubomir Cerovic that you referred to in your statement, he was
12 head of the security and intelligence department until
13 30th November 1992, when he lost his life. After Cerovic it was
14 Zoran Carkic who became new head of the security and intelligence
15 department; this is correct, isn't it?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Your immediate superior in the military police unit was
18 Radenko Ilic, was he?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You told us in your statement that you had visited Rasadnik
21 several times in the course of your duties. It is correct, isn't it,
22 that Muslim civilians were detained at Rasadnik, including old people and
24 A. Other than Rasadnik and the military detention, there was the
25 reception centre located in the secondary school centre. So it was
1 closed later, but they were not detained -- the centre closed once the
2 school began to operate, so they were not detained in the same place
3 where these other military prisoners were held but in a facility next to
5 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]
6 JUDGE KWON: We cannot distinguish -- no, your words were not
7 interpreted at all, you just overlapped while the interpretation was
8 going on.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise. In line 2, the
10 witness said that besides the military detention there was also a
11 reception centre which was relocated from the school once the school
12 began to work. [In English] Not located in, relocated from.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
14 Please continue, Mr. Zec.
15 MR. ZEC: Can we have 65 ter 24479.
16 Q. Mr. Andric, in front of you there will be a list of war prisoners
17 sent by the Drina Corps command to the command of the
18 4th Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade and to Lieutenant-Colonel Cerovic 1st
19 February 1993. If you look at the title of the document, there is a
20 reference to Vili. This Chamber has received evidence that "Vili" is a
21 nickname of Vinko Bojic who was warden of Rasadnik. In other words,
22 Vili, the Vili camp, is Rasadnik; this is correct, isn't it?
23 A. It's not a camp. It was a reception centre up there. As far as
24 the military remand prison is concerned, it was called the military
25 remand prison or detention unit. Nobody called it Rasadnik.
1 Q. My question was: The Vili camp is referenced here in this
2 document. This is Rasadnik; correct?
3 A. That camp - in fact, not camp but centre - was called Rasadnik,
4 not Vili.
5 JUDGE KWON: Does the word in B/C/S "logoru" mean "camp"?
6 Yes, Mr. Zec? Can I hear from the interpreters.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Yes it does, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
9 Please continue, Mr. Zec.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In line 2 it was said, "Nobody
11 called Rasadnik Vili." Line 2 on page 20.
12 JUDGE KWON: Aha.
13 Did you say that? Do you confirm that, Mr. Andric?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please repeat the
16 JUDGE KWON: No. What Mr. Karadzic has just said, you told us
17 that Rasadnik was never called as Vili. Do you confirm having said that,
18 Mr. Andric?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Zec.
21 MR. ZEC:
22 Q. Do you accept -- do you confirm that Vinko Bojic was also known
23 as Vili and Vinko Bojic was warden of Rasadnik? Do you confirm that?
24 A. Yes. Yes.
25 Q. Well, let's have a look at this list of names --
1 MR. ZEC: And, Mr. President, I referred earlier to P03267,
2 page 7, when I said that you received evidence about Vinko Bojic and his
3 nickname Vili.
4 Q. So, Mr. Andric, if you look at the list of names, there's a name
5 of Edina Musovic under item number 1. Edina is a Muslim female name,
6 isn't it?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Edina was born in 1972. Under item number 2 there's a name
9 Biba Kustura. Biba is a Muslim female name, isn't it?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Biba was born in 1928. Under number 3 is Nura Kustura. Nura is
12 a Muslim female name, isn't it?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Nura was born in 1930. Under item number 4 it says here Hanua
15 Kustura. This name also appears in another document that I'm going to
16 show to you after. It says there Hanuma Kustura, with m. Hanuma is an
17 old-fashioned Muslim name, isn't it?
18 A. Yes, it is.
19 Q. And Hanuma was born in 1892, which means that at the time of her
20 detention at Vili's, or Rasadnik, she was 101 years old, Mr. Andric,
21 isn't it?
22 A. According to this, yes, but I had no insight into who was there
23 because it was not my job to go into those buildings. My job was to deal
24 with soldiers who somehow violated military discipline. I cannot confirm
25 who was there.
1 Q. I just read to you first four names, all female names. In fact,
2 they appear all the way down to number 17 as well as the name item 41,
3 next page on this list. The reality is, Mr. Andric, that the Muslim
4 civilians were detained at Rasadnik, isn't it?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Items 32 to 35 on this list are the name of Sefik Hurko,
7 Mahir Jasarevic, Fejzo Hurko, and Alija Isakovic, whose statements you
8 have reviewed and they all say they were detained in Rasadnik; this is
9 correct, isn't it?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. ZEC: Mr. President, I tender this document.
12 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll admit it.
14 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6155, Your Honours.
15 MR. ZEC: Can I have P06153.
16 Q. Mr. Andric, in front of you there will be a list of detained
17 persons dated 10 April, 1993. This list was sent by the Drina Corps
18 command Lieutenant-Colonel Slobodan Cerovic, who we saw a moment ago as a
19 receiver of this previous list. Here Cerovic sends a list of detainees
20 to the command of the East Bosnia Corps and to the Ministry of
21 Justice and Administration, Slobodan Aviljas. The names of Muslim
22 civilians that I read to you from the previous list also appear on this
23 list. Can you see them?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Mahir Jasarevic, who I also mentioned, is item 32 which should be
1 next page on this list. Let's have a look at something that you have
2 already seen in the statement of Mahir Jasarevic. It's ID07602, in it
3 page 4. Mahir said that sometimes in summer 1993 Vinko Bojic,
4 Zoran Carkic, and you, Novica Andric, packed him and other prisoners into
5 a bus, including a pregnant woman, and took them to Zvornik. Mr. Andric,
6 the civilians were detained at Rasadnik and you know this because you
7 drove a group of them to Zvornik?
8 A. That is correct. That group was supposed to go to the Muslim
9 territory because they had expressed their wish to go behind the lines to
10 the territory controlled by the army of their people. Muslim authorities
11 obstructed that agreement to move them to the territory under their
12 control, and I believe after a day or two they were returned.
13 JUDGE KWON: Just -- do you agree that they were detained in
14 Rasadnik before they were transferred to Zvornik?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was at the same time a reception
16 centre up there, the one that was moved from the school. Maybe there
17 were some of them who were moved from the school. I don't know about all
18 the people who were there. I did not go inside to be able to confirm,
19 and I didn't know all these people personally.
20 MR. ZEC:
21 Q. We are talking about the people that you drove to Zvornik. They
22 were detained in Rasadnik, didn't they?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Mahir also said in his statement, same page, page 4, that women,
25 children, and old people from Satorovici, Berkovici, and other villages
1 in Rogatica --
2 JUDGE KWON: Just a second --
3 MR. ZEC:
4 Q. -- were detained at Rasadnik --
5 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
6 JUDGE KWON: Do you want to upload the statement?
7 MR. ZEC: We can, Mr. President. It's ID07602, page 4.
8 Q. And Mahir said there that women, children, and old people from
9 Satorovici, Berkovici, and other villages in Rogatica were detained at
10 Rasadnik. He said that two -- that two old women from Berkovici - Nura,
11 age 102, and Aisa, aged 100 - died after one year of detention. This is
12 what was happening at Rasadnik, isn't it?
13 A. I'm not aware of that. It's possible, but I don't know.
14 Q. Well, we can then call P0152 -- sorry, P06152 which is exhumation
15 report dated 4 November 1998, and I'll be looking at the part with --
16 should be English page 9, B/C/S page 7. And that part of the exhumation
17 report refers to Rasadnik. And according to this report, 14 bodies of 14
18 people were found exhumed from this location, from Rasadnik. And item
19 number 11 is Hanka Kustura, born 1895. Item 12, Sejfo Mirvic, 1948.
20 Next page is Aisa Osmanovic, born 1898, which means that she was 95 in
21 1993. Halil Vatres born in 1928.
22 So the reality is, Mr. Andric, that a number of civilians died at
23 Rasadnik as a result of the severe conditions they were subjected to,
24 isn't it?
25 A. I'm not aware of that, because as I said I came very rarely to
1 Rasadnik. I'm not aware of all the things that went on there.
2 Q. At the end of your statement you referred to the events after the
3 fall of Zepa in 1995. You talked about Ahmet Brgulja. Let me ask you
4 first about Avdo Palic. You know who Avdo Palic was?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. The VRS captured Avdo Palic after the fall of Zepa and he was
7 held in an apartment in Rogatica; this is correct, isn't it?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. The apartment was used by Zoran Carkic, which, in fact, belonged
10 to a Muslim from Rogatica; this is also correct, isn't it?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You provided guards for the apartment. You brought
13 Danko Frganja, Goran Ristanovic, and Slobodan Obrenovic to keep Palic
14 there, isn't it?
15 A. They were brought to be with him while he stayed there.
16 Q. Following the orders issued by the VRS Main Staff on
17 10 August 1995, you, Mr. Andric, and Zoran Carkic drove Avdo Palic from
18 Rogatica to a prison called Mlin near Bijeljina, didn't you?
19 THE ACCUSED: The name of prison was not caught by --
20 MR. ZEC: It's Mlin. It's M-l-i-n. Mlin, near Bijeljina.
21 Q. So you drove Palic from Rogatica to Mlin, didn't you?
22 A. Yes.
23 MR. ZEC: Can we have 65 ter 24641.
24 Q. In front of you there will be an order issued by Ljubisa Beara on
25 10 August 1995. In paragraph 1 it refers to Atlantida to be transferred
1 to Mlin, Bijeljina. Paragraph 2 says that Captain Carkic arranged this
2 with Major Kusic and personally carry out the task by announcing his
3 arrival to Colonel Todorovic in the IBK and so on. Mr. Andric, this is
4 the order, this one on the screen. This is the order pursuant to which
5 you and Carkic drove Palic to Mlin, and Atlantida is Avdo Palic; correct?
6 A. I don't know what it's called, but it's true that we drove him
8 Q. Pursuant to the order of the VRS Main Staff; this is also
9 correct, isn't it?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. ZEC: Your Honours, I tender this document into evidence.
12 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll admit it.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6156, Your Honours.
15 MR. ZEC:
16 Q. The reason for driving Palic to Mlin and keeping him in the
17 apartment before that was to hide him from public and the ICRC, wasn't
19 A. Keeping him in that apartment, he was provided better conditions
20 than other prisoners because he was a high-ranking officer. That was the
21 reason. But he was removed because there were troops whose family
22 members were killed in the attack at Bubanj Potok by forces led by
23 Avdo Palic. There was a fear that the families might do something to
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In the transcript, line 23, a
1 better translation would be "sheltered," not "removed." And I don't
2 think Bubanj Potok was mentioned.
3 JUDGE KWON: I think we can continue.
4 MR. ZEC:
5 Q. The body of Avdo Palic was exhumed from a mass grave in Vragolovi
6 which is 10 kilometres from the Rogatica town. You know this, do you?
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. Mr. Andric, who did it? Who took Palic back from Mlin, kill him,
9 and buried him at Vragolovi?
10 A. I don't know about that. I turned over Avdo Palic in Bijeljina
11 and I don't know what happened later. There's probably documentation as
12 to who took him over there. My role in this was the trip from Rogatica
13 to Bijeljina and leaving him in Bijeljina.
14 Q. Let's focus now to Ahmet Brgulja. Ahmet did not reach --
15 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Could we take a look at the map,
16 Rogatica, Mlin, and the mass grave.
17 MR. ZEC: Absolutely. Can we have 65 ter 19145. Mr. President,
18 this is a map from our court binder, and if we can zoom middle where
19 these triangles are.
20 Q. So, Mr. Andric, can you see the triangle first from the bottom.
21 It says "the garage of Novica Andric." Can you confirm this is
22 approximate location of your family house? Then above you will be able
23 to see "Rogatica town" if you look at the map.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And to the left side from "Rogatica town" there is a star and it
1 says "Vragolovi mosque," and above that it says "Vragolovi."
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And also above that on the right side it says "Rasadnik Farm."
4 Can you confirm these are approximate locations of the -- of these
5 locations that I just mentioned?
6 A. Yes.
7 JUDGE KWON: How about Mlin, Mlin prison?
8 MR. ZEC: Yes, before that I would like to tender this map and I
9 will call another map.
10 JUDGE KWON: This is not in evidence yet?
11 MR. ZEC: To my knowledge, no.
12 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We'll -- any objection, Mr. --
13 MR. ROBINSON: No, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive it.
15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6157, Your Honours.
16 MR. ZEC: Can we have P04675.
17 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll not broadcast this. But why is it under
20 MR. ZEC: I wasn't able to check that and thank you for reminding
21 me, Mr. President.
22 MR. ROBINSON: I think I know why, but it's related to
23 intercepts, I think.
24 MR. ZEC: Can we please zoom --
25 JUDGE KWON: I think we could find a better one -- yes, but let's
2 MR. ZEC: Mr. President, are you satisfied that you've found
3 Vragolovi and Mlin?
4 Q. Mr. Andric, Mlin is near Bijeljina; correct? The prison Mlin
5 that you took Palic to, that's near Bijeljina?
6 A. It is specifically in Bijeljina, in the town.
7 Q. And in this map you see Bijeljina on the right side?
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. ZEC: Can we scroll down. Still down.
10 Q. And on the bottom of the map do you see Rogatica?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. ZEC: Mr. President.
13 JUDGE KWON: So how far is Mlin from Rogatica, roughly? Is it
14 more than 100 kilometres away?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 200 kilometres.
16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. That's sufficient.
17 MR. ZEC: Thank you, Mr. President.
18 Q. Let's focus now to Ahmet Brgulja. Ahmet did not reach Kladanj,
19 as you suggested. He was detained at Rasadnik, isn't it?
20 A. I saw him at Boksanica. He was going in the direction of
21 Kladanj. I think he left. I don't know if and when he returned from
22 there. I saw him at Boksanica, as I stated, with the convoys on their
23 way to Kladanj.
24 MR. ZEC: Can we have D02133.
25 Q. Mr. Andric, in front of you will be a list of Muslim prisoners
1 compiled by Zoran Carkic with whom you drove Palic to Mlin. This list
2 was authorised by Zdravko Tolimir. It says:
3 "Starting on 28th July 1995, the following citizens of Muslim
4 ethnicity were accommodated at military reception centre in Rogatica."
5 This military reception centre is Rasadnik; this is correct,
6 isn't it?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Under items 1, 2, and 3 are the names of Zepa leaders,
9 Mehmed Hajric, Hamdija Torlak, and Amir Imamovic. Under item 17, next
10 page, is Ahmet Brgulja who you saw in Boksanica; correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Under 45 it says Atlantida, 1958, is in a different location,
13 safe location. This was Avdo Palic that you and Carkic held in the
14 apartment; correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. ZEC: I have nothing further, Mr. President. Thank you very
18 Q. Thank you, Mr. Andric.
19 A. You're welcome.
20 JUDGE KWON: How much do you have for your re-examination,
21 Mr. Karadzic?
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Fifteen to 20 minutes, perhaps
24 JUDGE KWON: Then we'll take a break now for half an hour. We'll
25 resume at 11.00.
1 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
2 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Zec.
4 MR. ZEC: Mr. President, if you allow me another two minutes,
5 because the issue is the case of this witness's father, Miodrag Andric.
6 And as you remember, there was an issue what was included in that case.
7 And Mr. Karadzic argued it was the garage incident was involved in that
8 case, and Mr. Karadzic argued on page 12 on today's transcript that the
9 prosecutor amended the indictment and that the garage was dropped.
10 Mr. Witness agreed to that. So I have indictment. It's 65 ter 24688.
11 So that's all I would like to --
12 JUDGE KWON: So could you put that to the witness?
13 MR. ZEC: Yes.
14 JUDGE KWON: We don't -- we have it in e-court?
15 MR. ZEC: We have it in e-court but we don't have translation
17 JUDGE KWON: Mm-hmm.
18 MR. ZEC:
19 Q. Mr. Andric, do you see on the first page the name of your father,
20 Miodrag Andric, also known as Mico?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. This is the indictment against your father. It's
23 6 September 1996. Do you confirm this is the indictment pursuant to
24 which your father was tried in Sarajevo?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. So I would kindly ask you to slowly read words after it says,
2 "Dana 03 June 1996 ..." It says "1996," I believe it should say "1992,"
3 but nevertheless can you slowly read this paragraph -- or rather, I'm
4 sorry, perhaps you can read it for yourself and tell us whether -- what
5 charges are here, what incidents.
6 A. This has to do with charges concerning the killing of three
7 civilians; however, I believe that he had an amended indictment --
8 Q. [Overlapping speakers]
9 A. -- in which the garage was mentioned.
10 Q. This is the indictment pursuant to which your father was tried
11 and judgement reflects this indictment. There is no garage. Do you
12 agree with that?
13 JUDGE KWON: So the question is whether this is the indictment
14 which had been modified or -- your case is that this is the initial
16 MR. ZEC: Correct and the only indictment.
17 JUDGE KWON: So could you ask that to the witness.
18 MR. ZEC: Seems that he claims that the indictment was modified.
19 I say it's not, so I don't know -- I can ask again but he will give the
20 same answer.
21 JUDGE KWON: So you could later on prove that the initial date of
22 indictment brought against Miodrag -- Mr. Miodrag Andric.
23 MR. ZEC: Certainly, Mr. President, it should be in the judgement
24 pursuant to which indictment his father was tried and whether it was
25 modified or not.
1 JUDGE KWON: So, Mr. Andric, do you confirm that
2 6th of September, 1996, was the date on which your father was prosecuted
3 for the first time?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not September, June. The time of
5 the killing, actually, that's June. I don't understand why witness
6 Sefik Hurko was heard during the trial if my father had not been charged
7 with the garage.
8 MR. ZEC:
9 Q. Again, that's the matter of the proceedings and it's all
10 explained in the judgement.
11 MR. ZEC: And, Mr. President, for your reference judgement is --
12 I have 1D0 -- ID12018. This is the first-instance judgement, and at
13 page 2 in the reasoning it refers to this indictment of --
14 JUDGE KWON: Let's take a look.
15 What page?
16 MR. ZEC: So in B/C/S it should be page 2. Can we -- page --
17 English page 2 as well see. Page 3 in English, please.
18 Q. Mr. Andric, can you see this judgement? This is the
19 first-instance judgement against your father. This one is from 1997 and
20 in the reasoning it says: Senior public prosecutor under investigation
21 number 6 September 1996 indicted Miodrag Andric, and so on. So the
22 indictment that I showed to you a moment ago is the indictment pursuant
23 to which your father was tried; correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 MR. ZEC: Your Honours, I tender the indictment which is
1 65 ter 24688.
2 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.
3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. We'll receive it.
4 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI P6158, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
8 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Andric, now that we're on the subject of
9 this document, the latest one, please take a look at this statement of
10 reasons. It says in line 5 or 6 and the deputy cantonal prosecutor
11 partially modified the indictment at the hearing --
12 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
13 Yes, Mr. Zec.
14 MR. ZEC: We are back to the same position that I was objecting
15 at the beginning of this issue with the judgement. Mr. Karadzic asking
16 the witness to comment the legal proceedings in Bosnia --
17 JUDGE KWON: No, but --
18 MR. ZEC: It's clear --
19 JUDGE KWON: -- you didn't hear the question.
20 MR. ZEC: I can see where it's going. It's again about this
21 minor modification of indictment which has nothing to do with dropping
22 charges is the core of my objection.
23 JUDGE KWON: We haven't heard the question.
24 Yes, please carry on, Mr. Karadzic.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. So, Mr. Andric, this indictment that was shown to you dated the
2 9th of September, 1996, that was used as a basis, was it modified,
3 amended, during these proceedings? And to what extent was the garage
4 spoken about during the trial?
5 A. Throughout the trial garage -- the garage was talked about and
6 witnesses were heard about the garage, and that is to say that the
7 accused person was charged with the garage.
8 Q. Thank you. What is the idea underlying the reconstruction of the
10 A. The reconstruction of the scene established that witnesses
11 provided false testimony. In the first statement given in Sarajevo, the
12 witness actually claimed that there was a small door on the garage, and
13 then when they came to the actual spot and when they took a photograph of
14 the garage then he changed his statement. So he basically adjusted his
15 statement to what suited him, but basically this testimony, these
16 statements, were false.
17 Q. Thank you. Who carried out this reconstruction of the garage?
18 A. The entire reconstruction was carried out by the
19 cantonal prosecutor's office, the MUP of the canton of Sarajevo, the MUP
20 of Republika Srpska, the OHR ombudsman, and the Human Rights Institution
21 were all present there.
22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Andric. I'd like to ask you something: These
23 lists that were shown to you, these lists of these persons that were
24 called captured persons here, are they accurate or not? Did you know how
25 reliable these lists were?
1 A. I don't know. I don't know about all of it. I don't know who
2 all the persons there were. Basically I don't have much information
3 about that.
4 Q. On page 18 of today's transcript, in lines 14 and 15, the learned
5 Mr. Zec said to you, presented information as to the following: That
6 Mr. Cerovic lost his life on the 30th of November, 1992. Did you know
7 him personally, and is it true that that is when he lost his life?
8 A. That is correct. He lost his life on that day. A planted
9 anti-tank -- anti-armour mine killed him.
10 Q. Thank you. Do you have any explanation as to -- was this an
11 important event? Did the brigade and corps know about that? Were they
12 informed of the fact that Cerovic had been killed?
13 A. I think so.
14 Q. Was Mr. Cerovic an important person in the military structure?
15 A. He was assistant commander for security in the brigade.
16 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like us to take a look at P6155 briefly.
17 What was Mr. Cerovic's rank?
18 A. He was a captain or a major. I'm not sure.
19 Q. Please take a look at the date. How is it possible that on the
20 1st of February, 1993, the Drina Corps is sending information to him
21 three or four months after he was killed?
22 A. I don't know about that.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Zec.
25 MR. ZEC: Perhaps we can see last page of this document because I
1 was talking about - and witness confirmed - about Ljubomir Cerovic, who
2 was security officer. It's -- I'm sorry, it's the first page --
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes --
4 MR. ZEC: It's about Slobodan. If I'm not mistaken, it's
5 Slobodan Cerovic. It's another person.
6 JUDGE KWON: Or lieutenant -- who was lieutenant-colonel.
7 MR. ZEC: Exactly and different rank.
8 JUDGE KWON: I'm not sure we are seeing "Slobodan."
9 MR. ZEC: That's another list -- not this one list. The other
10 list which was --
11 JUDGE KWON: But we can ask, yes. Thank you, Mr. Zec.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now take a look at --
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Actually, did you have two Cerovic's in the brigade?
15 A. No, one Cerovic was in the brigade and this other one was in the
16 corps, the Drina Corps.
17 Q. Thank you. And this fourth, that pertains to Rogatica, doesn't
19 A. [No interpretation]
20 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not hear the witness's
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Can we have a look at who this Slobodan is --
24 JUDGE KWON: Because of overlapping, the interpreters didn't hear
25 the witness's answer.
1 What did you say, Mr. Andric?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Rogatica Brigade, the
3 1st Podrinje.
4 JUDGE KWON: But the -- what position did Mr. Cerovic was in the
5 Drina Corps? Who was in the Drina Corps?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Slobodan Cerovic.
7 JUDGE KWON: What was he?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I don't know
9 exactly. At any rate, this man did exist, I mean in the corps.
10 JUDGE KWON: Is it not possible that the Cerovic,
11 Slobodan Cerovic, who was in the Drina Corps coincidentally stayed in the
12 Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade? That's why this message was sent to him
13 when he was there?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about that.
15 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
16 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Can we briefly take a look at P6153. Slobodan Aviljas, does that
20 name ring a bell.
21 A. No.
22 Q. Can you take a look at this list and can you see whether it was
23 sent to Slobodan Aviljas?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to ask you --
1 MR. ZEC: I apologise. This is the list that I was referring to
2 earlier and this was sent by Slobodan Cerovic, Lieutenant-Colonel --
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I think he's coming to that. Why don't we see
4 the last page. Yes, we see assistant commander
5 Lieutenant-Colonel Slobodan Cerovic.
6 MR. ZEC: And we were also talking about Ljubomir Cerovic who was
7 security officer, so two different people.
8 JUDGE KWON: So do you confirm, Mr. Andric, now that this is sent
9 by Slobodan Cerovic, who was the assistant commander in the Drina Corps
10 and whose rank was a lieutenant-colonel?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Possibly, yes.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. What was your role in the transfer of Lieutenant-Colonel Palic to
17 A. I was a driver in the military police, so I did that driving
18 along that road.
19 Q. Thank you. Did you ever give a statement anywhere about that?
20 A. Yes, I gave a statement at the crime police administration in
21 Banja Luka.
22 Q. Did they trust you and how did you prove that you were telling
23 the truth?
24 A. Well, lie-detector tests were carried out and it was established
25 that the statements were truthful, as they were.
1 Q. Thank you. Today on page 22 and then page 23, when a rather
2 complex question was put to you, your answer was "yes." So please do
3 help us establish what this "yes" refers to. I'm going to read it out in
4 English so that you receive a better translation:
5 [In English] "Q. I just read here you first four names, all
6 female names. In fact, they appear all the way down to number 17 as well
7 as the name item 41, next page on this list. The reality is, Mr. Andric,
8 that the Muslim civilians were detained at Rasadnik, isn't it?"
9 The answer is:
11 [Interpretation] Can you tell us whether you confirmed that these
12 persons were at the detention unit in Rasadnik?
13 A. They were there at the reception centre. They were right next to
14 each other. Basically they were at the reception centre there.
15 Q. Thank you. Then it says, further on, 32 to 35, I'm going to read
16 it out in English again:
17 [In English] "... are the names of Sefik Hurko, Mahir Jasarevic,
18 Fejzo Hurko and Alija Isakovic, whose statements you have referred and
19 they all say they were detained in Rasadnik; this is correct, isn't it?"
20 [Interpretation] Now you said "yes." What is correct, that you
21 read that or that you know that these persons were detained in Rasadnik
22 in that part?
23 A. Sefik Hurko, Izeta Hurko, Fejzo Hurko, and Alija Isakovic were --
24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the end of the
1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, because of your overlapping, they
2 didn't hear the answer of the witness. Can you repeat your answer.
3 Sefik Hurko, Izeta Hurko and Fejzo Hurko were what?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They were in military detention.
5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Thank you. And on page 23 -- actually, before that, can you tell
8 us on which basis they were in military detention and the others were at
9 the reception centre?
10 A. Well, since the two Hurkos had pistols and two boxes with
11 70 bullets, they were considered to be armed persons and that's why they
12 were brought into military detention.
13 Q. Thank you. When were they taken prisoner?
14 A. That happened after the counter-attack because the Muslim units
15 from the village of Madjer torched the village of Dobromirovici and
16 Lelek. Then in the counter-attack Fejzo's wife and Fejzo Hurko and
17 Sefik Hurko were taken prisoner.
18 Q. Thank you. And they were in your garage. Were they your
19 prisoners or your family's prisoners or whose prisoners?
20 A. They were prisoners of the army.
21 Q. Thank you. Over here on page 23 -- I'm going to read it out to
22 you in English:
23 [In English] "Mr. Andric, the civilians were detained at Rasadnik
24 and you know this because you drove a group of them to Zvornik."
25 [Interpretation] Your answer:
1 [In English] "That is correct. That group was supposed to go to
2 the Muslim territory ...," [Interpretation] and so on.
3 This part "it is correct," what does it refer to? Does it refer
4 to the fact that you drove them or to the fact that they were prisoners
5 in Rasadnik?
6 A. No, they were at this reception centre and that means that they
7 expressed a wish to temporarily change their place of residence in order
8 to go to the territory that was under the control of their people;
9 however, the Muslim authorities did not allow that. They allowed them to
10 enter the area of Tuzla, but after that they obstructed that and then
11 they returned them to Rasadnik.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have the map, P6157.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. We'd like to ask you to explain to all of us who held what under
16 their control so that all the participants, primarily the Trial Chamber,
17 would get a proper picture as to who controlled what.
18 MR. ZEC: Mr. President, I don't think this was an issue in
19 direct or cross-examination.
20 JUDGE KWON: To understand the location probably I think it's
21 relevant who held what -- what territory -- what places on this map.
22 MR. ZEC: But that's something that -- perhaps you want to hear
23 that, but that's something that he was supposed to put in his direct
25 JUDGE KWON: Let us see.
1 Please carry on, Mr. Karadzic.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we zoom in a bit in order to
3 see most of the central part of the municipality. And I kindly ask the
4 usher to help Mr. Andric with the electronic pen.
5 JUDGE KWON: Let's zoom in further. Is it sufficient,
6 Mr. Karadzic?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe it is.
8 MR. KARADZIC:
9 Q. Mr. Andric, please, could you tell us, for example, who by the
10 end of the summer of 1992, during those critical days before Rogatica was
11 liberated by the Serbs, where was the separation line? Who held what and
12 could you put an S on the Serb side and an M on the Muslim side and tell
13 us who held what.
14 A. Well, we'll try.
15 JUDGE KWON: If it's -- your question is of such a general
16 nature, how is it relevant? How does it arise from the
17 cross-examination, Mr. Karadzic? Unless it has specific bearing on the
18 location of school or the garage -- location of Mr. Andric's house and
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is correct, Your Excellency,
21 that was mentioned. Vragolovi, well let's see who controlled Vragolovi,
22 who could have destroyed the mosque there. Who was where in that area so
23 that we can understand what it was that the Serbs held.
24 JUDGE KWON: I think to the mosque -- yes, Mr. Zec.
25 MR. ZEC: And the Vragolovi issue came in relation to exhumation
1 of Avdo Palic, that's the place where he was exhumed. There was no
2 question about Vragolovi in 1992, either in direct or in
4 JUDGE KWON: Who was in control of Vragolovi in 1995 may be
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But, Excellencies, all these
7 markings could be of relevance, otherwise why wouldn't the Prosecutor
8 then submit a neutral map without any markings?
9 JUDGE KWON: Probably they couldn't find a better one in the
10 time-frame. Then you can move on, Mr. Karadzic.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And would you permit me to ask the
12 witness to draw a line between the Muslim-held and the Serb-held areas in
14 JUDGE KWON: But how does it arise from the line of
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The garage and the fighting and the
17 capture of those people on the list occurred in 1992, so I want to put to
18 the witness what the situation was in the villages from which these
19 people were placed in the reception centres. Why were elderly people in
20 the reception centres. Why were they not in their own villages? This
21 does arise from the cross-examination.
22 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Please proceed.
23 Could you draw a line, Mr. Andric.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This line is the line that goes
25 along the village of Kosovo towards the direction of Leleci. I think the
1 houses of Leleci is not -- are not shown here. Madjeri was under the
2 control of the Muslim forces, Madjeri, Kozici, Kopljevici. There was a
3 line of defence straight through the village --
4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear which village.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- between the Muslim and the Serb
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Could you please draw the lines along the whole municipality,
9 indicating who was where, if you're able to do that; if not, that's all
11 A. Well, I don't know everything in detail. In any case, the Muslim
12 forces were already holding the areas around the town.
13 Q. Very well. Then can you please circle the villages that were
14 held by the Muslims. Who held Vrazalice?
15 A. Muslims.
16 Q. Can you please circle that and place an M next to that.
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. What about Bulozi?
19 A. Just one moment, please.
20 Q. It's to the south of Vrazalice, Bulozi.
21 A. That was also under their control.
22 Q. Otricevo?
23 A. M.
24 Q. Brcigovo?
25 A. M.
1 Q. Lubardici?
2 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, it goes beyond the scope you
3 suggested. So the area below that line belonged to the Muslims?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
5 JUDGE KWON: Could you put the date of today, which is
6 28th of February, and your signature on the top of this map.
7 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
8 JUDGE KWON: We'll receive as the next -- as next Defence
10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D3046, Your Honours.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Mr. Andric, now I'm going to read out these villages, so I would
14 like to ask you where there was combat or around which villages there was
15 combat and around which ones there was no combat. In the document that
16 talks about -- it's this one, P6153 and 6155. These documents talk about
17 these persons who were in the Rasadnik reception centre. Were there
18 any -- was there any fighting around the village of Zakomo?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Jasenica?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Well, let's take it slowly, take a break. Jasenica?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Dumonjici?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Just make a break, please. Berkovici?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Kukavice?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Radava?
6 JUDGE KWON: How are they relevant to the cross-examination?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, it was said here
8 and also the heading can help us draw the conclusion that we're talking
9 about prisoners, but the witness confirmed that these were civilians who
10 were received at the reception centre. So what I am interested in is why
11 would civilians be in the reception centre? Were these combat zones or
12 were they ethnically cleansed? This is a very relevant question, both
13 for the Defence as well as in terms of the indictment.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Zec.
16 MR. ZEC: Only to say for the record that the document says that
17 these people were war prisoners.
18 JUDGE KWON: Do you object to the line of re-examination?
19 MR. ZEC: I objected earlier and I thought that you want to hear
20 this evidence, so I don't object anymore.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, we think you exhausted this issue.
23 Please move on to your next topic.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we now look at
25 65 ter 24439.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. You were asked about your role in the transfer of Avdo Palic from
3 Rogatica to Mlin. 24439, 65 ter. In what capacity were you questioned
4 at the B&H MUP in 1994? Is this the document?
5 A. Well, I was interviewed in my capacity as a witness.
6 Q. Thank you. Can we look at page 3 of the document, please. And
7 page 4 in the English. I'm going to read this sentence:
8 "According to my recollection, the above-mentioned Palic was with
9 the mentioned guards for some ten days or so and in this time-period I
10 brought them food two or three times ..."
11 And then the conclusion at the bottom before your signature is:
12 "I don't know anything about the fate of Avdo Palic."
13 Was this statement tested on a lie-detector machine?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you. I would like to tender this, please.
16 JUDGE KWON: Any objection?
17 MR. ZEC: No objection.
18 JUDGE KWON: We'll receive it -- how long is this one? We can
19 admit it in its entirety or only this page?
20 MR. ZEC: It's a witness statement that he gave in 2009, I
21 believe, to the RS MUP so yeah --
22 JUDGE KWON: Four pages.
23 MR. ZEC: Exactly. His statement is very short. It's more cover
25 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We'll receive it.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D3047, Your Honours.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency. I
3 don't have any further questions for this witness.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Andric.
6 A. You're welcome.
7 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Andric, that concludes your evidence. I would
8 like to thank you on behalf of this Chamber for your coming to The Hague
9 to give it. Now you are free to go.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 [The witness withdrew]
12 [The witness entered court]
13 MR. FILE: Your Honour, just one small piece of administration if
14 that's all right.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Good morning, Mr. File. Yes.
16 MR. FILE: Good morning. There were two exhibits that were MFI'd
17 pending English translation. I'm referring to P5975 and P6149. And I
18 just wanted to alert the Chamber that English translations are now
19 available and uploaded, and so I would move to have those admitted as
20 full exhibits.
21 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.
22 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber has been checking whether certain
23 exhibit was marked for identification only because of lack of English
24 translation or otherwise, but this time based upon the position of the
25 Defence we'll admit it in full -- them, both of them in their entirety.
1 Thank you, Mr. File.
2 MR. FILE: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, would the witness make the solemn declaration,
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
6 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Thank you.
7 WITNESS: BOZIDAR TRISIC
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Trisic. Please be seated and make
10 yourself comfortable. Before you commence your evidence, Mr. Trisic, I
11 must draw your attention to a particular Rule of Procedure and Evidence
12 we have here at the International Tribunal, that is, Rule 90(E). Under
13 this Rule you may object to answering any question from Mr. Karadzic, the
14 Prosecution, or even from the Judges if you believe that your answer
15 might incriminate you. In this context, "incriminate" means saying
16 something that might amount to an admission of guilt for a criminal
17 offence or saying something that might provide evidence that you might
18 have committed a criminal offence. However, should you think that an
19 answer might incriminate you and, as a consequence, you refuse to answer
20 the question, I must let you know that the Tribunal has the power to
21 compel you to answer the question. But in that situation, the Tribunal
22 would ensure that your testimony compelled in such circumstances would
23 not be used in any case that might be laid against you for any case --
24 against you for any offence, save and except for the offence of giving
25 false testimony. Do you understand what I have just told you?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do, sir.
2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
3 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
4 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
5 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Trisic.
6 A. Good day.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to speak up.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Can we ask you to speak up a little bit and come closer to the
10 microphones. I would also like you and me to speak our sentences out
11 slowly and to make a pause between question and answer.
12 A. I understand.
13 Q. Thank you. Did you provide my Defence team with a statement?
14 A. Yes.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 1D7814 in e-court
16 now, please.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Mr. Trisic, do you see the statement on the screen in front of
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And have you read and signed the statement?
22 A. I did read it, but I don't see the signature yet.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we show the witness the last
24 page, please.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, I did sign this
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Thank you. Does this statement faithfully reflect what you told
4 the Defence team?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. If I were to put the same questions to you today that were put to
7 you then, would your answers in essence be the same?
8 A. I would not change anything. They would be the same in essence,
10 Q. Thank you.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender the
12 statement and the accompanying documents pursuant to Rule 92 ter.
13 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President, the two associated
14 exhibits are noted -- it isn't noted there, but I don't find them on our
15 65 ter list in my own checking. So I would ask that they be allowed to
16 be added. I don't believe they were there because the witness was
17 interviewed after that list was submitted.
18 JUDGE KWON: Any objection, Mr. File?
19 MR. FILE: No objection, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE KWON: We'll admit the statement as well as two associated
22 THE REGISTRAR: The 92 ter statement will be Exhibit D3048, and
23 the two other documents would be Exhibits D3049 and D3050 respectively.
24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
25 Please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'm now going to read
2 the summary of Bozidar Trisic's statement in English.
3 [In English] Bozidar Trisic lived in Zaklopaca, and before the
4 war he worked as a teacher in the local primary school.
5 He lived in an ethnically mixed village where the relations
6 between all residents were good. However, after the multi-party
7 elections people began to mistrust one another because of the propaganda,
8 but still there were no incidents in the village to be caused by -- due
9 to the ethnicity.
10 At the beginning of May 1992 two buses carrying around 200 people
11 arrived in Zaklopaca. These people were Muslim inhabitants of local
12 villages who had fled as the Muslim forces wished to mobilise them.
13 Temporary accommodation was found in the village for these people. The
14 new arrivals informed the villagers of Zaklopaca that Muslims had placed
15 barricades at the entrance into the bauxite mine in Rupovo Brdo, and they
16 were not allowing miners to go to work. Mixed patrols were started by
17 the villagers of Zaklopaca as both the Muslims and the Serbs were afraid;
18 however, both Muslims and Serbian neighbours continued to socialise with
19 each other.
20 On 16th of May, 1992, Bozidar Trisic noticed three soldiers in
21 the village who he did not recognise. He spoke to them and they said
22 they were looking for Turks in the village. He informed them that there
23 were no Turks in the village and that they could turn back. As the
24 soldiers left, shooting could be heard in Gornja Zaklopaca part of the
25 village. As he returned home, Bozidar Trisic noticed bullets landing in
1 the village. Everyone in the village was very confused as no one knew
2 whether the village was being attacked by Muslims or Serbs.
3 Bozidar Trisic noticed that there was shooting from Serbian houses in the
4 direction of an attack in the woods. He also saw unfamiliar soldiers who
5 were firing at the village. The shooting lasted for 10 to 15 minutes,
6 and soon after it finished the inhabitants of Zaklopaca noticed a convoy
7 of passengers, vehicles passing by. Bozidar Trisic did not notice any
8 police or military vehicles in the convoy.
9 A number of villagers were killed in this attack, and following
10 this the Muslim inhabitants left Zaklopaca and moved to Gerovi, a Muslim
11 village. Following this, the Serb residents patrolled the village
12 guarding both the Muslims and Serb houses. The Serb residents assisted
13 their Muslim neighbours, providing them with food and cigarettes and
14 other goods. The incident that occurred on that day was not planned and
15 both Serbs and Muslims were in a dangerous situation. Not a single house
16 was set alight or destroyed in this incident. Nobody brought Muslims in
17 from elsewhere and killed them in Zaklopaca, only residents were killed.
18 Bozidar Trisic considers that this incident may well have been revenge
19 for the killing of the three territorials outside the barricaded mine.
20 And that is the summary, and at that moment I do not have
21 questions for the witness.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Mr. Trisic, as you have noted, your evidence
23 in this case has been admitted in writing in lieu of your oral testimony.
24 Now you will be cross-examined by the representative of the Office of the
25 Prosecutor, Mr. File.
1 MR. FILE: Thank you, Your Honour. And good morning to everyone.
2 Cross-examination by Mr. File:
3 Q. Mr. Trisic, I'd like to --
4 A. Good day.
5 Q. -- start by asking you about a time in early May 1992 when you
6 say that two buses arrived in Zaklopaca carrying about 200 Muslims from
7 nearby villages, including Pomol. You're aware of the event I'm talking
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. These were families?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And in this group there were men and women of all ages and
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. In your statement at paragraph 7 you said:
16 "When we asked them why they had come there, they said that they
17 had fled because the Muslim forces wanted to mobilise them into a
18 detachment in Djile. Since they did not want to be mobilised, they fled
19 to us for protection."
20 Now, you would agree that it sounds strange to hear that a group
21 of Muslim families, including women and children and the elderly, would
22 be fleeing their nearby villages due to the fear of being mobilised into
23 a military unit; correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Now, you know who Omer Selimovic is; right? He was another
1 resident of Zaklopaca at the time?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. FILE: Could we have 65 ter 24671, please.
4 Q. What you're going to see on your screen in a moment is a witness
5 statement that Mr. Selimovic gave to this Tribunal in 2000. He mentioned
6 on page 4 - if we could go to e-court page 4, please - on the second
7 paragraph I'll read to you what he said in his statement. He mentioned
8 the same arrival of people that you did but he described it differently.
9 He said:
10 "One day a large number of displaced persons from the village of
11 Pomol arrived at Zaklopaca. Each of our families took in some of the
12 displaced persons and they told us what had happened to them. Pomol is
13 some 10 kilometres away, and the people told us that a Serb tank had
14 shelled them; their houses had been burned and destroyed, and that they
15 had run to the woods to escape."
16 Now, does this refresh your recollection as to why all those
17 people came to Zaklopaca?
18 A. In talking with the people who came, mixed guards organised by
19 neighbours, Muslims and us Serbs, it is correct that those people were
20 placed in the elementary school and that the rest of them were placed at
21 private Muslim houses. I personally asked them -- first of all, we were
22 glad that they came. They were peace-loving people and they came - they
23 fled, of course - they said that there was some things happening around
24 the bauxite mine, that there were barricades, that a terrain was being
25 cleared, and that they came there to get out of the chaos and to seek
1 shelter for the time being. They told me personally that that is what
2 they did. As for whether they fled or if they did not flee, I don't
4 Q. So it's your testimony that they never told you that their
5 village had been burned and that they were fleeing an attack from a Serb
7 A. I did not ask them whether their village was burned. We did not
8 ask them if the village was burned. They just told us that they came
9 because they were supposed to be mobilised. It was a large number of
10 citizens. They were supposed to be mobilised in the Djile detachment and
11 so they came to seek temporary shelter. That's what they told me, at
12 least. I mean, these were very, very nice people.
13 Q. Okay. Let's talk about the events of the 16th of May, 1992. I'm
14 just going to start by asking you to verify a couple of basic points
15 about the events of that day. First of all, over 60 of your neighbours
16 from the village were killed that day; correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And all of the victims were Muslims?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. They were killed by gun-fire?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you saw soldiers firing on the village that day?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Okay. Well, we'll get to that. It's true that on that day you
25 attended a barbecue at the house of your neighbour, Seban Selimovic;
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And in the afternoon while you were on your way to a neighbour's
4 shop you stopped to talk with your neighbour, Branko Julevic; correct?
5 A. No, not the next day. The same day.
6 Q. Okay. The same day you were speaking to your neighbour,
7 Branko Julevic, and during that conversation three soldiers who you did
8 not recognise approached --
9 A. Jolovic is the name, Branko Jolovic.
10 Q. Thank you for that clarification for the transcript. During that
11 conversation it's true that three soldiers whom you did not recognise
12 approached you; correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. They were in camouflage uniforms and were armed with automatic
16 A. They were not in camouflage uniforms. They were in
17 olive-green-grey uniforms and had automatic rifles, as far as I can
19 Q. So at paragraph 12 of your statement where you say, "They were in
20 camouflage uniforms and had automatic rifles on their shoulders ..." that
21 should be corrected; is that what you're saying?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, according to you, they said they were looking for Turks;
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And you understood these soldiers to be Serbs; right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And this was the first sign to you that day that indicated that
4 something was wrong; correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And before the soldiers appeared, when you were talking to your
7 neighbour, Mr. Jolovic, was he armed?
8 A. I did not notice.
9 Q. Well, if he were carrying, for example, a semi-automatic
10 machine-gun, you would have noticed; right?
11 A. Certainly, of course I would have noticed. It's not something
12 you can hide under a coat.
13 Q. And you are certain that your neighbour, Mr. Jolovic, did not
14 approach you along with the other soldiers as a group; correct?
15 A. No, sir. He was sitting outside of Vujadin Vasiljevic's house on
16 a stump, on a tree stump, where wood is cut. He and Vujadin were sitting
17 there and talking. At that moment I came by, walking from the shop. I
18 stopped to talk to them for a while, just asking: How are you,
19 et cetera, officially.
20 Q. Okay.
21 MR. FILE: Could we have 65 ter 24682, please.
22 Q. While that's coming up, you know who Semsudin Muskic is; correct?
23 A. Muskic, Semsudin Muskic.
24 Q. I take it you know who that is?
25 A. I do.
1 Q. He was at the same barbecue you were attending that day?
2 A. Yes, he and his brother with their entire families were sitting
3 there in the yard. He had come a bit earlier. First he went to
4 Vlasenica, then came back.
5 Q. Okay. He gave a statement on the 26th of June, 1998, to an
6 examining judge of the cantonal court in Tuzla in connection with the
7 investigation of Milenko Djuric and others for genocide committed in
8 Zaklopaca. And what you have in front of you is a copy of his statement.
9 I'd like to direct your attention to the bottom of page 1 in
10 B/C/S and the top half of page 2 in the English. And what you'll see in
11 the statement is he describes spending the whole day with his brother,
12 Mevlo, in their neighbour Saban Selimovic's yard where there was a
13 barbecue. And then in the lower half of English page 2 and the top of
14 page 2 of the B/C/S he says:
15 "At Saban's house we were joined for the rest of the day by our
16 neighbour, Trisic Bozidar, a registrar. At about 16.55 I decided to go
17 to my house which was about 20 metres away. I remember immediately
18 turning on the TV as I entered my house, and at the time shown on the
19 screen was 17.00. At that moment my brother Mevlo's children said some
20 soldiers were coming, so I immediately went outside to see what kind of
21 soldiers they were. That was when I saw four unidentified persons
22 stepping out of a Honda passenger vehicle carrying automatic rifles and
23 wearing the former JNA olive-grey uniform. I saw and recognised our
24 neighbour Jolovic Brano, son of Radomir, accompanying the four men.
25 Brano was carrying an M72 semi-automatic machine-gun. They were heading
1 straight for Saban Selimovic's house. Outside the yard they were greeted
2 by Trisic Bozo, the registrar. He spoke to them about something. I saw
3 Bozidar trying to prevent them from going into the yard and I heard them
4 shouting at him. Next, Trisic Bozidar made a hand sign to the rest of us
5 who were observing the whole thing to flee. We realised the situation
6 was critical and we all fled the house ..."
7 He then goes on to describe automatic fire being opened a few
8 minutes later. Now, from this statement it sounds like you by trying to
9 prevent these armed men from going into your neighbour's house and
10 signalling that there was danger, you might have saved this man's life.
11 Do you remember that?
12 A. Yes, I remember that, except that in this version where he says
13 they attempted to go into the house of Saban Selimovic, that house was
14 next door to mine, and I stopped these soldiers some 50 metres away from
15 going into Vujadin Vasiljevic's house when they had crossed the river
16 coming from the side of the main road. So it's true I saved not only his
17 life but the lives of many Serbs and all the Muslims there. And of
18 course I risked my own life, and I'm not sorry to have done it, in fact.
19 I'm very glad I did.
20 Q. So this statement also describes Brano Jolovic as being part of
21 the group of soldiers approaching your area, and does this refresh your
22 recollection as to what your neighbour, Mr. Jolovic, was doing at the
24 A. My neighbour, Mr. Jolovic, worked in the bauxite mines. In fact,
25 he was a guard at the football stadium Milici --
1 Q. Sorry, I'm not interested in the background about Mr. Jolovic.
2 I'm just wondering if this refreshes your recollection as to what he was
3 doing at that precise time.
4 A. I found my neighbours Jolovic and Vasiljevic sitting on the tree
5 stump outside of Vujadin Vasiljevic's house. At some five minutes later,
6 those three soldiers appeared. That's what I know. That's what I'm sure
8 Q. Okay --
9 A. Now what he had come with, I don't know.
10 Q. Okay. You went home to get dressed and to get your M48 rifle and
11 you say that when you came out into your courtyard again you saw a
12 soldier who had put a machine-gun on the water-pipes and was shooting at
13 the village; correct?
14 A. Yes, except that when those three soldiers came back, they turned
15 around immediately, one of them tried to take his rifle off, the other
16 one jerked him away, and they returned to the road. A few minutes later
17 in the upper village, Gornji Selo, shooting started, then I returned to
18 Vujadin's house, took the house, and as I was approaching the house, not
19 from the fountain but from the water-supply pipe, because there's a
20 water-supply pipe from Zaklopaca to Milici and our city supply system,
21 and between my house and Saban's house --
22 Q. Mr. Trisic --
23 A. -- bullets were whizzing and there was a cloud of dust --
24 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt. I'm sorry to interrupt, but your
25 statement is already in evidence so you don't have to repeat everything
1 that's in there. I'd like you to just answer the questions.
2 A. All right. Thank you.
3 Q. So you answered "yes" to my question about whether you saw a
4 soldier shooting at the village. You previously, a few minutes ago, said
5 when I asked you whether you saw soldiers shooting that day you said
6 "no." So I take it you wish to correct that answer?
7 A. I saw a soldier shooting from that water-supply pipe, if you
8 understand me --
9 Q. Right --
10 A. -- I didn't see the other soldiers shooting in Gornje Selo.
11 Q. He was on your property at the time; is that right?
12 A. You mean the soldier?
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. He was not on my estate. He was in front. He was in front of
15 it, perhaps 50 to 100 metres outside my farm, just below the main road.
16 Q. Okay. And you yelled at him to stop shooting and he did stop
17 shooting, he left, and he did not turn to fire at you; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, you were not out patrolling the village or participating in
20 any of this shooting; correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. You stayed in your house during this time?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You did not live in the centre of the village; correct?
25 A. I lived closer to the entrance to the village, at least that part
1 of the village.
2 Q. And you did not see what was happening in the centre of the
3 village at that time?
4 A. I did not see what was happening in the upper part of the
6 Q. And you had a Muslim neighbour named Adem Selimovic who went into
7 the village to see what happened, and he came back a half-hour later and
8 told you that there were many dead; correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And at that point you went to your Muslim neighbours' houses and
11 you told them that it would be best if they left the village and went to
12 a place where only Muslims lived; correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you said this -- pardon me. You said this because you knew
15 that it wasn't safe for Muslims there; correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And afterwards you went on a patrol of the village with other
18 Serbs; right?
19 A. No. I went alone to see what happened with them. I saw they
20 were missing. They were not there. And then I went further up the
21 village where the Serb houses are and the house of Adem Selimovic and
22 that's where I found them, if you know what I mean.
23 Q. So it's true that afterwards you must have seen dozens of Muslims
24 who had been your neighbours who had been shot to death at that point?
25 A. No. I couldn't see him because that's in the upper part of the
1 village and we were in the lower part of the village. In my part of the
2 village, nobody was shot.
3 Q. So just to clarify, are you saying you never went to the upper
4 part of the village after the incident to see what had happened?
5 A. No, I never went.
6 Q. Now, ultimately all of your Muslim neighbours who were still
7 alive moved out of Zaklopaca; right?
8 A. Yes. Things were still bad, but they returned and we saw each
9 other almost every day.
10 Q. But they did not return to live there. They returned to collect
11 some of their belongings; that's right?
12 A. Yes, yes, yes.
13 Q. Now, I noticed in your statement that you mentioned that not a
14 single house was either set alight or destroyed during this incident, but
15 it's true that Serbs ultimately moved into the houses that were
16 previously owned by Muslims; right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Are you aware that the Muslim women who survived the massacre
19 walked to Vlasenica, where they surrendered to Serb soldiers and were
20 brought to the municipality building where they were required to sign
21 away their houses and property to the Serbs, at which point they were
22 bussed out of town in the direction of Kladanj. Are you aware of that?
23 A. I don't know about that.
24 MR. FILE: Your Honours, the citation for that is Exhibit P418.
25 Q. Okay, you said in paragraph 26 of your statement:
1 "I was told there were claims that the attack on Zaklopaca was
2 carried out by the Milici police station, or rather, its policemen, and
3 that Rade Bjelanovic was the chief of the station. I state that this is
4 not true because I would have recognised the policemen from the Milici
5 police station who wore blue uniforms at the time."
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, Mesudina Zaimhadzic was a resident of Zaklopaca who gave
8 evidence here. Do you know what that is?
9 A. I don't know exactly.
10 Q. She specifically identified a policeman whom she knew from Milici
11 named Milomir Milosevic as a participant in the attack. Did you see
12 Milomir Milosevic in Zaklopaca during the killings?
13 A. I did not see that.
14 Q. She also said that at 5.00 p.m. she looked out the window of her
15 house and saw about four or five army vehicles and one police car
16 arriving. Do you not recall seeing a police car?
17 A. I do not recall and I did not see that. I didn't see a single
18 police or military vehicle that day.
19 Q. Okay. Are you familiar with the following four survivors of the
20 Zaklopaca attack: Ibro Hamidovic?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Hakija and Havo Berbic?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And Mersida Salihovic?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. These people all gave statements under oath in 1995 to a
2 magistrate in Tuzla, similar to the 1998 statement that we saw earlier
3 from Semsudin Muskic. I want to quickly show you something from each of
4 their statements, then I'm going to ask you a question about it. So
5 could we have 65 ter number 64 -- sorry, 24678, please. This is going to
6 be the statement of Ibro Hamidovic. And when it comes up, if we could go
7 to page 2 of the B/C/S and page 2 of the English. At the top of both
8 pages what you'll see is that Mr. Hamidovic says:
9 "On that very day, May 16th, 1992, about 4.00 p.m. I was in my
10 house in the village of Zaklopaca. I suddenly saw three-four, no 7-8
11 vehicles pass through the village near my house, and the first of them
12 was a police car. I recognised Milosevic Milomir, policeman, in the
13 police car ..."
14 And then it goes on to describe gun-fire being opened shortly
15 thereafter. In the interests of time, I'm not going to go through the
16 other three statements of Havo Berbic and Hakija Berbic and
17 Mersida Salihovic, but I'll just tell you that all three of them also in
18 their statements recall seeing at least one police car. So what I'm
19 wondering is whether it's possible that you just didn't see a police car
20 or police cars that were actually in Zaklopaca that day?
21 A. I did not see that car. I did not see any police cars. Only in
22 the upper part, the first 100, 200 metres into the upper village. The
23 police was changing the local water-supply pipes and police patrols were
24 taking turns around the water-pipes. Milosevic was a policeman, but that
25 day I didn't see him. I did not see any police cars that day, not a
1 single one.
2 Q. But you acknowledge --
3 A. It's possible that --
4 Q. Pardon me.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I kindly ask the Prosecutor to
6 tell us where it is stated that the police car was in the village,
7 because here it says it passed through the village.
8 JUDGE KWON: You can take up that issue.
9 But, Mr. Trisic, what -- did you try to say something? It's
10 possible ... and it was -- and you were cut off. What did you try to
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's possible that police cars
13 drove up to the water-supply pipe and that they were noticed because
14 there was a police patrol at the water installation every day; it was
15 guarded by the police.
16 MR. FILE:
17 Q. And what you're saying is that could have happened without you
18 personally seeing it; right?
19 A. Yes. I did not see any police cars or military vehicles that
21 Q. Okay. My last few questions I'd like to ask you about some
22 statements that you make in your witness statement. At paragraph 23 you
23 say that the attack on Zaklopaca happened spontaneously and it had not
24 been planned, and then at paragraph 27 of your statement you give your
25 opinion as to what motivated the attackers. You say:
1 "A convoy of JNA military vehicles was travelling through Milici
2 that day withdrawing towards Serbia and they encountered many problems on
3 their way. It was probably one of those people who, in revenge for the
4 killing of the three territorials, asked someone where they could find
5 Muslims close by, and a group of them and the volunteers who were in
6 Milici at that time went to Zaklopaca and caused this incident."
7 Now, this statement is just a guess, right? Because you just
8 testified that you didn't know who these attackers were?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. FILE: No further questions, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, do you think you can conclude your
12 cross in ten minutes? I'm sorry --
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe so.
14 JUDGE KWON: I meant re-examination. Then please continue,
15 Mr. Karadzic.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
18 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Trisic, on page 55 of today's LiveNote, you
19 were asked whether it was strange, now I'll give you the exact quotation
20 in English:
21 [In English] "Now, you would agree that it sounds strange to hear
22 that a group of Muslim families, including women and children and the
23 elderly, would be fleeing their nearby village due to the fear of being
24 mobilised into a military unit; correct?"
25 [Interpretation] And you said "yes." Now, did you agree with
1 that being strange?
2 A. No, I did not say that that was strange. It wasn't strange
3 because everybody avoided mobilisation, Serb and Muslim people alike.
4 And of course everybody's going to try to get away from that hell that
5 was going on up there, how should I know, around Rudnik.
6 Q. Thank you. Today on page 59 the question implied that that was
7 the first sign that something went wrong, when these three soldiers
8 showed up. When did you find out about the ambush when these three
9 persons were killed beforehand, when they were killed by the Muslims?
10 A. I found out only on the next day.
11 Q. On pages 61 and 62 you said that you heard that shooting had
12 started in the upper part of the village. All of those who entered the
13 village then, who got into the village, did they have to pass by you on
14 that bridge?
15 A. They didn't have to. They could also enter along the road that
16 led to Gornji Zalukovi [phoen] from the main road.
17 Q. Thank you. On page 65 you briefly said "yes" in response to the
18 Prosecutor's question whether Serbs moved into Muslim houses. Can you
19 tell us who these Serbs were that moved into Muslim houses and on which
21 A. Serbs who moved into Muslim houses in Zaklopaca were from the
22 area of Rupovo Brdo because they had been expelled from there by the
23 Muslim population Brdo and Slivovo, and then they fled to Zaklopaca and
24 moved into Muslim houses in Zaklopaca. There were people from
25 Gornje Vrsinje too.
1 Q. Thank you. These houses, were they handed over to them, were
2 they given to them as a gift?
3 A. No, they were not given to them as a gift. They just lived there
4 and they really did take care of the houses properly. Afterwards, the
5 houses were returned to the Muslims and then now they renovated these
6 houses, whereas these people moved back to their own houses.
7 Q. Thank you. My question is not reflected here, whether they
8 became the owners of that?
9 A. No, they did not become the owners of that because that was
11 Q. Also it was mentioned that certain certificates were asked for in
12 terms of them giving houses as gifts. How many cases were there of
13 having ownership changed in Vlasenica in terms of property being taken
14 away from someone?
15 A. I don't know of a single case of somebody's property being seized
16 from them.
17 Q. Thank you. Do you know Tomo Savkic, Milenko Stanic, and other
18 representatives of the Serb community in the authorities in Vlasenica?
19 A. Yes, I do, Mr. President.
20 Q. Did they participate or contribute in any way to this incident in
22 MR. FILE: Your Honour, I would object to that as going beyond
23 the scope of cross-examination.
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] However, it had been implied that
1 police vehicles had been noticed there and the police is part of the
2 municipal authorities.
3 JUDGE KWON: I don't think it necessarily arose from the
4 cross-examination. You could have raised it in your direct examination.
5 I tend to agree with the Prosecution.
6 Yes, Mr. Robinson, would you like to help us?
7 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. I think the Prosecution's
8 cross-examination called into question who it was who was responsible for
9 these killings, and that it goes directly to that point.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We'll allow the question.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Mr. Trisic, you said today that you did not recognise these
15 people and in some statement that was read out too, that these people who
16 were shooting had not been recognised. Now, this is what I'm interested
17 in: To the best of your knowledge, the police of Vlasenica or Milici,
18 did it take part in this and what was the attitude of the authorities in
19 Milici and Vlasenica vis-a-vis that incident?
20 A. I think that the authorities did not know about this incident
21 because every effort was made to go on living together so that we'd
22 continue living together as we had before that. So I deny that the
23 authorities knew about this incident at all.
24 Q. Thank you. You mentioned the possibility of police presence in
25 securing the waterworks. Did you know that police vehicles could follow
1 the military column through those municipalities? I'd like to read this
2 out to you, this statement of Zoran Durmic who testified here only
3 recently. Paragraph 8, Zoran Durmic's statement. It says --
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We do not have the text.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. "We were stopped at the roadblock and we were asked where we were
7 going and we said we were escorting the military column to Zvornik. All
8 of those who were at the barricade were stern and unpleasant and they
9 said" --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not catch the end.
11 JUDGE KWON: It's too fast. Take a look at the transcript and
12 begin from there again.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I see that, sir --
14 MR. FILE: Your Honour.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. File.
16 MR. FILE: I would object to this as being a very leading line of
17 questioning, essentially using the words of another witness to suggest
18 something relating to this roadblock and the military column.
19 JUDGE KWON: I tend to agree with you, Mr. File.
20 What is your question, Mr. Karadzic? Just put your question not
21 in a leading way.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. The question is: What were all the ways in which a police
24 vehicle could have been seen without it being involved in --
25 MR. FILE: Your Honour.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Oh, I withdraw it. That's fine.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Last question, Mr. Trisic: You did not recognise it. Did you
4 hear from anyone else --
5 JUDGE KWON: Is that your last question? We need to rise.
6 Please go on.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Mr. Trisic, you said that you did not recognise any of those
9 soldiers. Did you hear from anyone, from any of the other locals, about
10 them having recognised those persons who stopped there and opened fire?
11 A. I did not hear any such thing, Mr. President.
12 Q. Last question. Where were these people killed? Where were they,
13 in houses or what? How come so many people were killed in 10 or
14 15 minutes only?
15 A. That's what the locals told me, that people were killed as they
16 were fleeing from their homes, as they were trying to save themselves in
17 the woods, in the river valley, et cetera. All of those who stayed
18 behind, in their homes, had not been touched. Nothing happened to them.
19 Ibro Hamidovic and Semsudin at least said that when he came to see me in
20 Vlasenica three days later, he and his wife and their sister-in-law.
21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Trisic. No further questions.
22 A. Thank you.
23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Trisic. I would like to thank you
24 for your coming to The Hague to give it. Now you are free to go.
25 We'll -- today, just for today, the Chamber is minded to take an
1 hour break for lunch and adjourn at 3.00 unless it causes problem to the
3 MR. ROBINSON: No problem.
4 JUDGE KWON: We'll resume at 1.45.
5 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.42 p.m.
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 [The witness entered court]
8 --- On resuming at 1.49 p.m.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, would the witness make the solemn declaration,
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
12 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
13 WITNESS: MOMIR BULATOVIC
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Bulatovic. Please be seated and make
16 yourself comfortable.
17 Could -- yes, could the Chamber move into private session
19 [Private session]
12 [Open session]
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
16 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. I forget to mention that we'll
18 proceed for this session pursuant to Rule 15 bis with Judge Morrison
19 being away.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. President, did you give my Defence team a statement?
23 A. Yes, I did.
24 Q. Thank you. I see that you already know that we need to pause
25 between question and answer, and I appreciate that.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please call up in e-court
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Do you see that statement before you on the screen?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. Thank you. Have you read and signed this statement?
7 A. Judging by the first page, it is the statement that I read and
9 Q. Thank you.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we show President Bulatovic the
11 last page so that he can identify his signature.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is my signature.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Thank you. Did the statement faithfully reflect what you said to
15 the Defence team?
16 A. Yes.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated] Do you hear me now?
18 JUDGE KWON: Could you repeat, Mr. Karadzic. I'm not sure
19 whether I heard you or not.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated] I don't have mike. It
21 was functioning until recently.
22 JUDGE KWON: Could you try it again.
23 THE ACCUSED: Now I have it.
24 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry. I'm sorry. It was my notebook, thank
25 you, that pushed the priority button. Please continue.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. If I were to put the same questions to you today, would the
3 answers to those questions basically be the same like those contained in
4 this statement?
5 A. Yes, they would be the same but I must note that I can give
6 additional argumentation to this honourable Trial Chamber, including
7 facts that could not be included in the first statement.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, can I please
10 tender this 92 ter package now?
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
12 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. In addition, for
13 President Bulatovic we have eight associated exhibits, two of which were
14 not on our 65 ter list, which are the last two in our chart, and we would
15 ask that they be added as they came up during the proofing.
16 JUDGE KWON: And as regards the areas the witness wanted to add
17 would be led live by Mr. Karadzic?
18 MR. ROBINSON: No, Mr. President. I think if there's additional
19 explanations required, we will elicit those in re-direct examination.
20 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
21 Any objections, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?
22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No, Your Honours, but I just wanted to
23 clarify. In relation to the contemporaneous records that are basically
24 addressed by the witness in the statement, it's my understanding that
25 they are tendered in full and not just one page. Is that understanding
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I was about to raise that, if you do not raise
4 As regards the four, one, two, three, four stenographic notes, I
5 take it you're tendering only those pages shown to the witness?
6 MR. ROBINSON: Actually, if there's no objection by the
7 Prosecution, we would like to have the whole -- those particular ones
8 admitted. But if this -- if the Prosecution would only want those pages
9 then we will do that.
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, then I would like to turn to you and would like
11 to hear from you --
12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
13 JUDGE KWON: -- why they should be admitted in their entirety.
14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, actually I join the request by the
15 Defence that they should be admitted in their entirety, in particular
16 65 ter 06141. It's -- the entire -- the entire document refers to the
17 stances taken by the peace negotiations and they are actually of interest
18 for all. It should be -- it should be in full. In particular, the
19 Prosecution also will use this document to highlight certain passages,
20 and it is very difficult to just have it piecemeal because it's all the
21 time about these negotiations. Therefore I think it's useful to the
22 Court to have it in full.
23 In relation to the three SDC minutes, there are, at least in
24 06243 and 06256, a few passages in there that are not really related to
25 Bosnia, but rather to the financing of the VJ. But there are -- it's not
1 many. So mostly these -- the discussions are related to problems in the
2 territory of Republika Srpska, the co-operation of the leaderships and
3 the armies, and I think it should be also before the Court in full. And
4 in relation to 06253, it is also entirely about negotiations and the
5 outcome of the negotiations, the positions taken by the Bosnian Serbs and
6 other participants; therefore, I think to have them in full would assist
7 the Court.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Given the circumstances, we'll admit
10 them all in their entirety.
11 Shall we give the numbers for the statement as well as the other
12 associated exhibits.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, the 92 ter statement,
14 65 ter 1D7815 will be Exhibit D3051, and the eight associated exhibits
15 will be assigned Exhibits D3052 through Exhibits D3059 respectively.
16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
17 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'm now going to read
19 the summary of President Bulatovic's statement which has now been
20 admitted. I'll be reading it in English.
21 [In English] Momir Bulatovic served as President of Montenegro
22 from 23rd of December, 1990, to the 15th of January, 1998. He was
23 prime minister of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia from
24 19th of May, 1998, to 4th of November, 2000.
25 President Bulatovic believes that the Bosnian Serbs, led by
1 Radovan Karadzic, did not need nor want the war. They favoured the
2 status quo of remaining in Yugoslavia. Everything they did was in
3 response to acts and threats of the Bosnian Muslims which were determined
4 to rule over all of Bosnia. President Bulatovic is convinced that the
5 war could have been avoided in March 1992 had the Bosnian Muslims agreed
6 to the Cutileiro Plan. However, they were persuaded by the Americans
7 that they could get a lot more if they rejected the plan. More than
8 three years and thousands of lives later, they ended up with the
9 Dayton Agreement which was almost identical to the Cutileiro Plan.
10 On September the 16th, 1991, President Bulatovic attended a
11 meeting of high representatives of Serbia, Montenegro, and
12 Bosnia and Herzegovina in Belgrade. The meeting was called for the
13 purpose of finding solutions to preserve Yugoslavia. Dr. Karadzic and
14 Adil Zulfikarpasic, a Muslim leader, were invited to attend as special
15 guests after they had concluded the Serb-Muslim historic agreement,
16 calling for a peaceful sharing of power in Bosnia.
17 President Alija Izetbegovic chose not to attend this meeting.
18 When it became inevitable that Bosnia would not remain in
19 Yugoslavia, Dr. Karadzic favoured a separate Bosnian Serb entity in which
20 the Serbs would be able to govern themselves politically, rather than
21 being under the political control of the Bosnian Muslims. Dr. Karadzic
22 always expressed the wish that Muslims and Croats would live in the Serb
23 entity with full respect for their rights, while Serbs who preferred to
24 live in the Bosnian Muslim or Croat entity would be free to do so and to
25 have their rights respected. This was the principle behind the
1 Cutileiro Plan to which Dr. Karadzic agreed in March 1992 and which he
2 supported both privately and publicly.
3 President Izetbegovic [sic] never heard Dr. Karadzic saying
4 anything that would lead him to believe that he favoured the expulsion of
5 Muslims and Croats from the Serb areas of Bosnia. He was not aware of
6 any joint criminal enterprise among leaders of the Bosnian Serbs and
7 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia to expel Muslims and Croats from the Serb
8 areas in Bosnia.
9 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, Mr. Karadzic. Line 3 should have
10 read "President Bulatovic." Please continue.
11 THE ACCUSED: I hope I didn't say that. President Bulatovic I
12 said, but somebody -- I don't know how it was translated.
13 JUDGE KWON: You said so. Please continue.
14 THE ACCUSED: President Bulatovic is familiar with the strategic
15 goals endorsed by the Bosnian Serb Assembly in May 1992. He never
16 understood the goal of separation to mean physical separation of ethnic
17 or religious groups through expulsions. He always understood it to be in
18 the political sense so that Serbs would be able to govern themselves
19 rather than being out-voted by the Muslims.
20 President Bulatovic is aware that during the war in Bosnia,
21 members of the population of all ethnic groups suffered expulsions. He
22 does not believe that this resulted from these policy of
23 Radovan Karadzic. Instead, it resulted from the collective mentality of
24 the population, who reacted instinctively when war broke out because of
25 what they had experienced in the Second World War, when the Ustashas,
1 aided by the Muslims, killed many Serb civilians in villages throughout
2 Bosnia. When the war broke out in Bosnia, it was impossible for
3 Dr. Karadzic or any other political leader to control the population to
4 prevent such crimes.
5 President Bulatovic had many conversations with Dr. Karadzic
6 about the shelling of Sarajevo. Dr. Karadzic recognised the political
7 liability and damage that the shelling did to the cause of Bosnian Serbs
8 in the eye of the world. He told President Bulatovic that when he had
9 inquired of General Mladic and the Bosnian Serb army whether the shelling
10 could be stopped, he was told that the shelling was necessary to avoid
11 the Serb positions being overrun by the Bosnian Muslim army, which would
12 then attack Serb civilians in the suburbs of Sarajevo.
13 Dr. Karadzic and President Bulatovic also discussed allegations
14 frequently made by international negotiators that the shelling was not
15 limited to repulsing military attacks but was aimed at the civilian
16 areas. Dr. Karadzic told him that he had banned shelling of civilian
17 areas on a number of occasions and had done everything he could to
18 prevent the unnecessary or disproportionate shelling of Sarajevo.
19 The shelling of the Markale Market in Sarajevo on
20 5th of February, 1994, was discussed at the Supreme Defence Council
21 meeting on 7th of February, 1994. General Perisic, the Chief of Staff of
22 the Yugoslav national army, said:
23 "Over there in Republika Srpska they say that they are certainly
24 not the ones who did it, and the likelihood is small."
25 Perisic went on to report that:
1 "Our military experts claim that this is impossible. We assume
2 that the same was done in Vase Miskina Street - that the explosive was
3 prepared ahead of time and placed in a number of spots and that at a
4 given moment the signal was given to set it off when the largest number
5 of people were there."
6 In August 1992, the issue of detention camps in BH came to the
7 forefront of negotiations after the news media wrote about those camps.
8 When reports of mistreatment of persons in those camps surfaced, he
9 discussed this with Radovan Karadzic. Dr. Karadzic appeared to be
10 surprised at the mistreatment. He told President Bulatovic that he had
11 guarantees that the refugees in the camps would be taken care of and
12 treated according to the Geneva Conventions.
13 President Bulatovic spoke with Radovan Karadzic about the issue
14 of paramilitaries. Dr. Karadzic didn't want the paramilitary groups in
15 Bosnia and they caused great problems for the local Bosnian Serb
16 authorities and the Serb citizens, as well Dr. Karadzic wanted to get rid
17 of those people but simply didn't have the ability to do it.
18 In 1994, President Bulatovic became aware that a rift had
19 developed between President Karadzic and General Mladic. During sessions
20 of the Supreme Defence Council in 1994, which is a body of Yugoslav
21 defence system, they approved some personnel actions designed to pension
22 off generals who were believed to support President Karadzic, such as
23 General Stanislav Galic. In a discussion on 11th of July, 1994, they
24 were told that General Mladic had proposed pensioning some generals who
25 had "turned to the Karadzic option."
1 As the war went on, President Karadzic lost a lot of his
2 political power. General Mladic had become an icon, and the
3 Bosnian Serb Assembly was dominated by the representatives of the people
4 who were manning the trenches and who were against all forms of
5 compromise. At one point it seemed that President Karadzic had lost
6 control over General Mladic and the VRS.
7 President Bulatovic got to know Radovan Karadzic quite well over
8 the years 1991-1997. He never heard him express any hatred for Muslims
9 or Croats or saying anything which would lead him to believe that
10 Dr. Karadzic was in favour of crimes committed against people from those
11 groups. He can say with absolute certainty that Radovan Karadzic would
12 never have been in favour of executing prisoners, whether in Srebrenica
13 or anywhere else.
14 President Bulatovic was present during negotiations in Belgrade
15 in July 1996 when United States' diplomat Richard Holbrooke came to
16 Belgrade to negotiate for the resignation of Radovan Karadzic as part of
17 the implementation of the Dayton Peace Agreement. He personally heard
18 Richard Holbrooke say that he had the guarantee of the United States
19 president that Karadzic would not prosecuted by The Hague Tribunal if he
20 resigns and withdrew from politics.
21 [No interpretation]
22 JUDGE KWON: It seems that the interpreters took part of your
23 summary so they didn't interpret your last words. Could you repeat it.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. [In English]
25 President Bulatovic was present during negotiations in Belgrade in
1 July 1996 when United States' diplomat Richard Holbrooke came to Belgrade
2 to negotiate for the resignation of Radovan Karadzic as part of the
3 implementation of the Dayton Peace Agreement. President Bulatovic
4 personally heard Richard Holbrooke say that he had the guarantee of the
5 United States president that Karadzic would not be prosecuted at
6 The Hague Tribunal if he resigned and withdrew from politics.
7 And what probably was not caught was that I said that this is
8 summary and I don't have any questions for now.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, indeed.
10 Mr. Bulatovic, as you have noted, your evidence in this case has
11 been admitted in writing in lieu of your oral testimony. Now you'll be
12 cross-examined by the representative of the Office of the Prosecutor,
13 Madam Uertz-Retzlaff.
14 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour. I had actually
15 expected that one or two documents would be addressed viva voce, but
16 that's obviously not happening. Okay. Thank you.
17 Cross-examination by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:
18 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Bulatovic.
19 A. Thank you.
20 Q. Mr. Bulatovic, in your statement, paragraphs 24 through to 26,
21 you referred to the shelling of Sarajevo, and in this context you
22 referred to the shorthand notes from the session of the council of
23 co-ordination of state policy held on 18th August 1992. To you and
24 Milan Panic and the others present, Mr. Karadzic would say that he was
25 not in control of the guns and parts of the VRS and they acted on their
1 own; correct?
2 A. The question is too broad. I'm not sure exactly what you're
3 asking me.
4 Q. I was asking you whether Mr. Karadzic when -- when addressed on
5 certain events during meetings, he would say that he was not in control
6 of the guns - for instance, the ones in Sarajevo - and he were not -- and
7 certain parts of the VRS acted on their own. Isn't that what he at times
8 would say to either you or other people?
9 A. If you're asking me whether the stenogram faithfully reflects the
10 discussion, yes, I confirm that it does. And if I understand your
11 question correctly, it was not just on that occasion but on numerous
12 other occasion that we faced the fact that there was a civil war in
13 Bosnia and that it was not possible to establish control and command over
14 each individual unit. I don't believe that General Mladic could have
15 done that either and especially not the political leader who was there.
16 Q. Mr. Bulatovic, when you say these kind of things, you rely on
17 claims that the -- that Mr. Karadzic and other members of the
18 Bosnian Serb leadership basically put forward to you in such discussions;
19 right? You were not yourself there to make your own observations?
20 A. If you permit me, my source of information was not just from
21 contacts with Mr. Karadzic. At that time there was a conference on the
22 former Yugoslavia, the section for Bosnia and Herzegovina, there were
23 international mediators. At the time Lord Owen had a leading role
24 together with Cyrus Vance, and then after he left that post we had
25 Mr. Stoltenberg. Numerous times in Geneva while we were trying to find a
1 peaceful solution we faced the fact that shelling was going on. We
2 sought confirmation also from independent organs. We wanted the shelling
3 to stop, thus we did not just have to believe one side. But according to
4 UN sources as well and those of the observer missions it was evident that
5 the shelling of Sarajevo was going on outside of any kind of logic or
6 plan. This did not cause only us to be concerned but also the peace
7 mediators. We remember the sincere --
8 Q. Let me --
9 A. -- horror by Lord Owen -- from Lord Owen particularly --
10 Q. Let me interrupt you.
11 JUDGE KWON: Let me interrupt you, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff. The
12 Chamber will rise for five minutes.
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Okay.
14 --- Break taken at 2.19 p.m.
15 --- On resuming at 2.24 p.m.
16 JUDGE KWON: For record, we are now sitting in full Bench.
17 Please continue, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. Mr. Bulatovic, I had interrupted you because we have only very
20 little time here and I hadn't asked you about the negotiations with the
21 internationals and what they told you. So I would rather prefer that you
22 stick and answer questions very precisely and the exact question asked.
23 Let me put to you, you yourself, you noticed during meetings or
24 negotiations with Mr. Karadzic and the Bosnian Serb leadership that when
25 they were under pressure they sometimes turned to political manoeuvring
1 and even told the truth. Did you notice that -- untruth, sorry, the
2 untruth. Did you remember that?
3 A. I tried to answer your questions with the best intention. I
4 didn't mean to give a broader answer. But I'm just saying that at the
5 peace negotiations these precisely were the topics: The shelling of
6 Sarajevo. The shells were being counted and it was not something that
7 only we did; the entire conference on Bosnia and Herzegovina was doing
8 that and it was also the UN monitoring system that was doing that too.
9 Q. Let me interrupt you again. My question was whether you in your
10 dealings with Mr. Karadzic and the other Bosnian Serb leaders noticed
11 that at times they were telling the untruth or resorted to political
12 manoeuvring. That was the question, and it's actually you either did or
13 you did not.
14 A. But I am experiencing that as a leading question. I would be
15 very grateful if you would help me by telling me what was the sense of
16 that, is anybody speaking the truth or not in a situation when a city was
17 being shelled and when lives were being lost and considerable damage was
18 being inflicted.
19 Q. Let me interrupt you --
20 A. I personally cannot put these things together.
21 Q. Let me interrupt you again. The Prosecution is entitled to ask
22 leading questions and that's what I'm doing, and I was actually hoping
23 you had answered the question but you didn't.
24 Let me --
25 JUDGE KWON: I think witness was confused with the -- with your
1 previous question.
2 The question was whether Mr. Karadzic and other Bosnian Serb
3 leaders at times were telling you or the other -- or other representative
4 telling untruth? That's a general question.
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
6 JUDGE KWON: Can you answer the question, Mr. Bulatovic?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to my information, I
8 don't think so. I believed what they were saying and the reason that I
9 did so was that other information and other sources confirmed such a
10 state of affairs.
11 JUDGE KWON: Back to you, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour.
13 Can we please have 65 ter 24596B in e-court.
14 Q. And as it is coming up it's a part of your book: "Rules of
15 Silence," in which you describe the conflict in the former Yugoslavia and
16 your observations. And this particular part here of the book refers to
17 your description of an event that took place in Geneva on the night of
18 the 19th of January, 1994. I don't -- yeah. Yes. You describe here in
19 this -- on this page you describe here your negotiations between the Serb
20 and the Croat side and an agreement was reached on a Serb proposal of an
21 interethnic demarcation map and that the next step to be taken was that
22 cartographers from both sides were preparing a detailed map that would
23 take into account the Croatian territorial request. You remember this
25 A. I remember it very well. I'm the author of the book. Of course
1 I re-read it and I think that it faithfully reflects the events at the
2 time and how I experienced them. But if you permit me, I am saying
3 something else here than what you are putting to me in the question from
4 a little bit earlier. It wasn't the cartographers who were supposed to
5 determine the borders. It clearly states here that they tried,
6 President Karadzic and other members of the Serbian delegation, to get
7 the territory of 17.5 per cent which would satisfy the demands of the
8 Croatian President Tudjman in the sense of the possibility of signing an
9 historic agreement on co-operation between Serbs and Croats. This
10 passage for me and as well as in another incident are an illustration of
11 tragic fate of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the major responsibility --
12 Q. Let me stop you.
13 A. -- of their political representatives. If you look carefully --
14 Q. Let me stop you. What I was actually referring to is that the
15 remaining step to make is prepare the maps that everybody had agreed
16 upon, and that is actually described here on this page. And you describe
17 also on this page that Radovan Karadzic said that there was no need for
18 them, the cartographers, to work together and that the whole job was
19 going to be completed by the Republika Srpska experts. And then you say:
20 "I believe that Tudjman was not really closed the door behind him
21 when Radovan Karadzic asked: 'Does anyone have an eraser?' Milosevic
22 and I could not believe that he was going to erase the line that they had
23 just agreed on ..."
24 That is what the situation was at that time; correct?
25 A. No, not at all. Obviously we are reading the same text in two
1 different ways. I'm describing here the drama that is supposed to result
2 in the drawing of maps. It says that one move on the 1:50.000 map with a
3 pencil is drawing a line on a territory that is soaked with blood and
4 suffering. This is obviously an honest attempt, but it's also obvious
5 that this war that was tearing up Bosnia and Herzegovina with casualties
6 and victims on all sides made it impossible to make a compromise. It's
7 not about speaking the truth or lying here --
8 Q. Let me interrupt you.
9 A. -- it's about being able to withstand the burden of loss of life.
10 Q. Let me interrupt you. I mean, I just read to you your own words
11 that you have written in the book and we can see that here in both
12 languages. Do you deny that it was like this, how you describe it in the
13 book, that Radovan Karadzic as soon as Tudjman was out of the door erased
14 the line that they just had agreed upon?
15 A. Now I don't understand what you're saying, really.
16 Q. Mr. Bulatovic, I simply read to you what you had written in your
17 book, and I assumed that what you had written here is your observation at
18 the time and it had been like you had written it here.
19 A. I'm not denying any of what is written here, but I cannot agree
20 with your interpretation of one sentence, that you have the right to put
21 to me as the Office of the Prosecutor. You can interrupt me even now,
22 but I don't see in this sentence what you are suggesting. This is not a
23 story about a liar who is erasing things from an agreement. This is a
24 long story. There are many pages before and many pages after that show
25 with what difficulty, how arduously we were trying to reach peace in
1 Bosnia. I cannot agree with you interpretation that this text shows me
2 depicting Radovan Karadzic as a liar. It may be your interpretation, but
3 I cannot agree.
4 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I would like to tender this
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
7 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll admit this page.
9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6159, Your Honours.
10 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we please have 65 ter 24596A displayed
11 in e-court.
12 Q. And it is another part of your book and it is an excerpt that
13 deals with the negotiations on the Vance-Owen Plan in 1993 and it is
14 quite a number of pages, but on the first page and the second paragraph
15 you state that:
16 The Yugoslav side truly wanted peace and were ready to make any
17 reasonable compromise in order to achieve it. And, Mr. Bulatovic, the
18 reasonable compromise that you actually had seen in the Vance-Owen Plan
19 in 1993, the Bosnian Serb leadership and Mr. Karadzic did not share
20 your -- this view, that it is a reasonable compromise; correct?
21 A. Yes, that's correct.
22 Q. And you also say here your own assessment that the Vance -- it
23 was your own assessment that the Vance-Owen Plan would protect the
24 interest of the Bosnian Serbs, end the war, and set a legal procedure for
25 resolving the remaining disputed issues; correct?
1 A. Yes, that's correct with the proviso that I personally supported
2 every peace plan, beginning with the Lord Carrington plan and ending with
3 the Dayton Accords, because I believed and I still believe that a bad
4 peace plan is still better than a good war.
5 Q. And as I read in your book, and we can move on to the second page
6 in both languages, that you and Mr. Milosevic did all you could to
7 convince the Bosnian Serb leaders to accept the plan. And when they left
8 in the evening, you actually understood that they had accepted it and
9 were finally agreeing to it; correct?
10 A. Yes, that's true too.
11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we move to the next page.
12 Q. And we look at the last paragraph in the B/C/S and also in the
13 English. But immediately afterwards, Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik
14 broke their promise and they declared to be opposed to the agreement.
15 That is how it is described in your book. Is that also your recollection
17 A. Yes. It is said in the book that the MPs who were supposed to
18 make their decision were warriors. I'm very sorry that plan failed.
19 Together with the then-Greek Prime Minister Mitsotakis,
20 President Milosevic, I invested a lot of effort for that peace plan to
21 succeed, but we failed unfortunately. But I don't think it was a game
22 played by Dr. Radovan Karadzic, president of Republika Srpska. I believe
23 it was a kind of madness that reigned in their parliament at the time and
24 all of that is written here.
25 Q. Yes, I'm not -- I'm just going a little bit further in the text.
1 You also describe here that you had been following this in Athens,
2 further negotiations involving the Greek Prime Minister Mitsotakis, and
3 at that time you -- it ended with Mr. Karadzic signing and provisionally
4 accepting the plan. And it also refers here to the fact that you,
5 Mr. Milosevic, and Prime Minister Mitsotakis attended then the
6 RS Assembly Session that followed in which the signature was not
7 ratified; correct?
8 A. Yes, that's correct.
9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we move further to page 4 in both
10 languages and it's the third paragraph in the English and the last
11 paragraph in the B/C/S.
12 Q. You describe here what was going on on this Assembly session and
13 you state in the book Mr. Karadzic did not support the plan as you, and
14 obviously the other participants of the delegation from Belgrade had
15 expected but rather spoke to the contrary.
16 That is what happened; correct?
17 A. The book reflects my impression that I still hold today, that
18 President Karadzic, cunningly and in a veiled way was a man under great
19 pressure and against signing that plan. I know that it was against his
20 convictions, against his deep beliefs, but we exerted so much pressure on
21 him in Athens that he accepted to inform in a skilful political way his
22 own Assembly.
23 Q. And you -- further in your book you describe how after the
24 speeches that you, the delegation, from Belgrade, in particular
25 Mr. Milosevic, gave, the atmosphere changed and you had basically the
1 hope that the plan was -- would be accepted. And then there was a break
2 for a caucuses meeting. And then -- now I want to quote to you - it's
3 from page 5 in the English and it's the same page in the B/C/S - you say:
4 "The good opportunity for peace got lost because the session was
5 interrupted for a caucuses meeting to which you had no access and you
6 call it political manoeuvring so that the plan was not accepted."
7 Is that a correct description of what you felt at the time, that
8 you were outmanoeuvred on purpose?
9 A. You could say that's true, yes.
10 Q. And you also described further in your book that the same
11 repeated itself with the Contact Group plan in 1994, and here you say in
12 relation to July 1994 you say:
13 "Even this time we were assured that the decision on the peace
14 plan would be positive. The difference this time was that we had more
15 reserve towards the sincerity of the RS leadership's intentions."
16 Is that also how you felt about it?
17 A. That's correct.
18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I would like to tender this
20 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive it.
22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6160, Your Honours.
23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Mr. --
24 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, if it is coming from a same -- but
25 why don't we add this part to the previous exhibit instead of giving a
1 separate number.
2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I have no objections. Only we gave it a
3 separate number because we felt it would maybe be easier.
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll add that part to the previous exhibit,
5 i.e., Exhibit P6159.
6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we now please have 65 ter 24585 on the
8 Q. And as it is coming up, it is a transcript of the raw materials
9 gathered by the BBC for their video: "Death of Yugoslavia." It has
10 disappeared. Okay. Thank you. You remember that you took part in this
11 series of interviews that were conducted on the "Death of Yugoslavia"
12 with quite a number of protagonists?
13 A. Yes, I remember this as well as I remember regretting it. It's
14 the kind of journalism where you talk for two hours and somebody cuts out
15 five minutes from that, the bit that suits them. Let me just look at
16 this text which is in front of me in English, which is not a problem, but
17 I'd just like to see when this was.
18 Q. It is actually to me also not clear when this -- when you had
19 these talks with a journalist, but it is the raw material. It's not the
20 few minutes that were basically later on aired. It's the entire
21 transcript of the talks and it's only identified on -- according to
22 writers, so ...
23 MR. ROBINSON: There is a date at the very bottom. I don't
24 know ...
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Oh, yes, October -- 7 October 1994.
2 Q. Does that match your own memory on when these talks took place?
3 A. But the BBC series called "Death of Yugoslavia" was filmed and
4 broadcast after 2000. That's why this date in 1994 confuses me. That
5 time when I talked to the BBC was after I stopped my involvement in
7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I also cannot clarify this now.
8 Q. So you remember it was in 2000 or when did you stop?
9 A. Looking at this text, it's the BBC story about the death of the
10 League of Communists of Yugoslavia, and logically this refers to the
11 communist party of Yugoslavia, because in 1994 there were other, more
12 important topics than the central committee and the 14th Congress of the
13 party which was in 1989.
14 Q. Let me perhaps clarify something. This is quite an extensive
15 transcript, and according to this transcript you addressed a lot of
16 topics. And we are not concerned with these early topics that obviously
17 were touched upon with the journalist, at least according to this. Let's
18 move to page 28 and on this page you speak about an event that you may
19 remember where there was the bombing of Gorazde in April 1994. And here
20 we have -- we have here -- and it says here 8 October 1994. We have here
21 the event that you yourself heard from the police that Gorazde was being
22 bombarded. Do you remember that event?
23 A. Now reading this, yes, I believe it's fairly reflected.
24 Q. And you said here yourself you and Mr. Milosevic were stunned
25 that such a stupid move could have been timed in such a way to destroy
1 all diplomatic efforts invested before that and that you then confronted
2 Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik. You did that, did you -- didn't you?
3 A. If you go through the document, I'll be able to confirm or deny.
4 But I cannot see yet.
5 Q. Yes. Can we go to the next page, please. Here in the upper part
6 you see basically how Mr. Milosevic and you were upset about what had
7 happened and that you basically called them and that they first denied
8 that they were attacking Gorazde, and when you confronted them with proof
9 they said they would stop it. Do you remember that situation?
10 A. Let's say that's the way it was. Unfortunately there were many
11 similar situations. This is an overture into the NATO bombing of the VRS
12 positions that followed later. Yes, that would be my answer.
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I would like to tender the
14 pages that I just referred to; that is, pages 28 and 29. I will also use
15 another excerpt so --
16 JUDGE KWON: Any objection, Mr. Robinson?
17 MR. ROBINSON: No, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE KWON: We'll admit these two pages. We'll add another --
19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
20 JUDGE KWON: -- when you present it.
21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour. We have to go back
22 to page 22.
23 JUDGE KWON: Just -- let's give the number first.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6160, Your Honours.
25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Page 22.
1 Q. And you describe here and tell the journalist the situation that
2 we actually spoke about a bit earlier, namely, the talks you had with
3 Mr. Karadzic in Belgrade the day before the Bijeljina Assembly session.
4 And you mention here that you wrote a letter to Bijeljina and the key
5 argument in the letter as it -- as you say here, "signed by Cosic,
6 Milosevic, and me was that they had no right to decide on the fate of all
7 of us, especially when they are not as endangered as they had represented
8 it to their own people."
9 What you have mentioned here is -- did happen and you fought
10 about that; right?
11 A. Yes, that was a period of great political divisions between the
12 leadership of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the leadership of --
13 I just wanted to inform this Court that in that period Serbia and
14 Montenegro were placed under very hard sanctions. We were not able to
15 buy food or medicine for our babies and we felt our very existence was in
16 danger. It was a completely different feeling than the feeling people in
17 Bosnia and Herzegovina had. And here speaking of political differences,
18 I cannot judge who was right and who was wrong. Our anxiety in Serbia
19 and Montenegro was due to the fact that we were placed in unbearable
20 living conditions. But still, we had peace, whereas over there there was
22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I would like to tender the
23 pages 21 and 22 of this --
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: -- and that's all pages for this document.
1 JUDGE KWON: They will be added to P6160.
2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
3 Q. Mr. Bulatovic, I will now refer to paragraph 20 of your statement
4 where you say that all ethnic groups suffered expulsion and you also --
5 JUDGE KWON: Before that.
6 Mr. Bulatovic, do you have your statement with you in hard copy?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
10 Q. And you also state that this ethnic -- this expulsion was not the
11 result of Mr. Karadzic's policy but rather resulted from the collective
12 mentality of the population at that time and you refer to some details.
13 Mr. Bulatovic, is it your evidence that the expulsion and crimes that the
14 Serbs, the Croats, and the Muslims suffered during the period from 1991
15 through to 1995 in Croatia and in Bosnia are not the result of the
16 policies and the actions of their respective leaderships? Is that your
18 A. Very strong lifelong conviction is that it was a consequence of
19 the civil war that raged in those areas, and that civil war was due to
20 the uncontrolled and unlawful breakup of the previous state; that is to
21 say the expulsions and the crimes are a consequence of the fact that
22 there was a civil war not that there was any plan. I am proud - and I
23 want to emphasise - that my country, Montenegro, was an open door to many
24 people who found refuge there. 700.000 inhabitants of the country I'm
25 proud to lead received 72.000 refugees from Bosnia-Herzegovina, including
1 30 per cent Muslims. They found shelter in Montenegro and thanks to the
2 United Nations -- of course you are entitled to.
3 Q. Yes, I interrupted here just because of time concerns. I fully
4 understand that you wish to make this point clear, but unfortunately I
5 have no time to do that. So -- but it's a bit not exactly answer my
6 question, but let me put this to you --
7 JUDGE KWON: Shall we continue tomorrow, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?
8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, can I ask two more questions
9 because then this is finished? But I can also do it tomorrow, whatever
10 you prefer.
11 JUDGE KWON: If it is only two questions, then we can continue
12 with the indulgence of the staff, interpreters and court reporter.
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you very much, Your Honour, just so
14 that it is finished.
15 Q. Are you saying that the population, no matter what ethnicity, are
16 expelling and killing each other on a mass scale in a huge territory
17 because it's their mentality and because it's a war and not their
18 leaderships or the people who are directing the armies?
19 A. If I understand your question correctly, then I would say I don't
20 believe there was a plan or that any side had a possibility, including
21 Serbs, Croats, and Muslims, to order crimes and expulsions. I am sure
22 and I know from the entire history of Bosnia-Herzegovina and from the
23 many decades of peaceful coexistence that when a war begins, when the
24 earth moves under them, people are capable of crimes and they flee to
25 territories where they feel safe. I cannot believe that there was a plan
1 because I know Bosnia too well, its history, and its people. I talked to
2 all of those people, including President Izetbegovic and Mate Boban, the
3 Bosnian Croat leader. We spent many years together. I know
4 President Karadzic very well. I would bet everything I earned in my life
5 that these people were not criminals. They were in difficult positions
6 in very difficult times, horrible times. And believe me, every 50 years
7 in the history of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Mrs. Uertz-Retzlaff, such crimes
8 and such expulsions repeat themselves.
9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, that is -- that concludes this
11 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
12 Mr. Bulatovic, we'll continue tomorrow. I'd like to advise
13 you -- I think you understand English. I wanted to advise you not to
14 discuss with anybody else about your testimony. Thank you.
15 The hearing is adjourned.
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.01 p.m.,
17 to be reconvened on Friday, the 1st day of
18 March, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.