1 Tuesday, 19 March 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.05 a.m.
5 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone.
6 Yes, good morning, Mr. Robinson.
7 MR. ROBINSON: Good morning, Mr. President. I'd like to
8 introduce Raluca Dragan from Romania who is one of our legal interns who
9 will be helping us today during this session. Thank you.
10 JUDGE KWON: "Buna dimineata."
11 Good morning, Mr. Tieger. Good morning, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff. We
12 received the report contained in your periodic disclosure report. I'd
13 like to ask you whether you have anything to add to the report we
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I got the impression that you
16 wanted to hear more details on how we missed the items that were the
17 subject of the two recent disclosure violation motions and I am actually
18 prepared to do that.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, as briefly as possible.
20 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, thank you. But, Your Honour, at the
21 outset I have to say that when the Prosecution team detects an error
22 of -- in its disclosure, it's never routine to us. And on the contrary,
23 the team members involved in search and disclosure matters - and there
24 are many - they are very upset about it, including myself. And then we
25 immediately establish why these items have been missed and try to find a
1 way to systematically and comprehensively react to this.
2 In relation to these three Bosnian statements we missed, we found
3 that they came from the files that we received from the Bosnian
4 authorities many years ago, and these files were usually quite big and
5 contained a considerable amount of statements, mostly inculpatory
6 statements related to a given crime. The statements were missed in the
7 initial search and all subsequent searches because of the same OCR
8 problem. And as these three statements were never translated and also
9 never separately processed into the OTP databases, the counter measures
10 for possible OCR problems never found them either. Fortunately, the
11 lawyer preparing for the cross-examination of a Defence witness looked
12 into this file as this Defence witness was implicated in certain crimes,
13 and only then found the statements and we immediately disclosed it. And
14 as we have seen from the disclosure report, we immediately have reacted
15 to it and we have meanwhile disclosed rules of the road files already in
16 a great extent and we are still doing it, but before doing so we have to
17 remove internal work products from these files, and, therefore, we will
18 need about two more weeks to complete the entire disclosure of the rules
19 of the road files related to the crimes charged in this case here.
20 And just if you want to know more of the rules of the road files,
21 I also have to tell you that very many of these files are duplicates or
22 triplicates or even more. As an example, when ten persons are implicated
23 in a given crime, you have ten very similar files because for each
24 perpetrator the Bosnian authorities compare a separate file. And the
25 Defence is also aware already of such files and has received quite a
1 number of them because they showed up in the spreadsheets that we have
2 compiled for the 66(B) requests for the Defence. That's the first group
3 of missed items. And the second one is a report for Witness Vasiljevic,
4 and I must say that troubled me the most because I was personally
5 involved in this interview and it occurred at a time not long before the
6 disclosure dead-line for witness statements of the Trial Chamber.
7 The OTP has established procedures how to deal with such
8 information reports. The investigators conducting the interview have to
9 prepare the report. They then have to process it into the OTP evidence
10 collection. They get ERN'd and then disclosed. That is standard
11 procedure, and we have described this procedure in more details in
12 appendix B to the disclosure report of the 28th of July, 2011, where
13 Mr. Hogan, investigator, has described it in all steps.
14 When disclosure is particularly urgent, for instance, when we
15 have to meet a disclosure dead-line or when there is a witness upcoming,
16 sometimes the disclosure is done informally, also via e-mail, before a
17 given document is ERN'd. In this particular case, the information report
18 was prepared in time but unfortunately it was not processed into the OTP
19 evidence collection but remained in the personal electronic file of the
20 investigator. I, myself, was convinced that it was disclosed because of
21 the standard procedure. Only when I prepared for the cross-examination
22 of Mr. -- of General Vasiljevic, I realised that the information report
23 was not showing in the spreadsheet for this witness that we had prepared
24 according to the 66(B) request. At that time I still thought that this
25 disclosure report -- sorry, that this information report was disclosed
1 and I thought probably, because of the urgency according to -- via e-mail
2 without ERN-ing. You can see that easily from my disclosure letter that
3 was attached to the 78th disclosure violation motion because you can see
4 an additional remark reflecting my thinking in this letter. However, the
5 review -- the internal review did not show any trace of any disclosure.
6 As a consequence of the circumstance in this particular case, the
7 team lawyers and investigators have been directed to review their
8 personal electronic folders so that the Prosecution can exclude any
9 similar human error in the future. We also have requested the files of
10 the lawyers and investigators who have meanwhile left our team and left
11 the OTP, that they be retrieved from the archives and we will also review
12 these files. It will take us about two weeks to do all this.
13 That is what I can say in relation to the two disclosure
14 violations at issue in your decision.
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
16 Do you wish to make any observations, Mr. Robinson?
17 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. Thank you very much. First
18 of all, we want to thank the Chamber for the efforts that it's been
19 making on our behalf, both yesterday in connection with our request for
20 the United Kingdom's documents and today by asking the Prosecution to
21 provide an oral explanation for the disclosure violations. And we thank
22 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff for her detailed explanation of those.
23 I'd like to just give you some additional information on each
24 violation, the first one being the 77th disclosure violation motion,
25 where the Prosecution reported that the optical character recognition
1 technology hadn't recognised the names. In the Prosecution's
2 consolidated response to the accused's third, fourth, and fifth motions
3 for a finding of disclosure violations and for remedial measures on the
4 6th of July, 2010, some two and a half years ago, the Prosecution said
5 that they were already searching for the optical character recognition
6 text of image files and that these multiple layers of searches enable the
7 Prosecution to locate all witness-related materials. They went on to say
8 that they'd implemented an additional measure of searching through PDF
9 and Microsoft Office files so that they could also, through optical
10 character recognition and other technology, do a full text search of
11 those documents.
12 In the Prosecution submission of a report concerning additional
13 measures related to Rule 66(A) disclosure filed on the
14 20th of August, 2010, the Prosecution reported that this search had been
15 completed for all witnesses. In its notice of compliance with the
16 Trial Chamber's further decision on the 1st of December, 2010, the
17 Prosecution further reported that all four additional measures are
18 complete and all statements of their witnesses have been disclosed as of
19 the 30th of November, 2010.
20 In the Prosecution's response to Dr. Karadzic's 33rd, 34th, 35th,
21 and 37th motion for disclosure violations on the 4th of February, 2011,
22 it was said that the Prosecution conceded that it had violated
23 Rule 66(A)(ii). And although the concrete measures implemented by the
24 Prosecution at the Trial Chamber's request had been somewhat effective,
25 by virtue of human error the statements at issue had been missed because
1 the witness's name in the statement was not recognised by the optical
2 character recognition process relied upon by the Prosecution. And the
3 Prosecution promised to continue to re-review the documents and the
4 disclosure logs to identify any material which had been omitted from
6 In the Prosecution's disclosure report of the 27th of July, 2011,
7 the Prosecution identified technical limitations in searching documents
8 with poor quality as one of the reasons for the previous disclosure
9 violations and it detailed the steps in which it was taking to remedy
10 that situation, including assigning Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff to personally
11 manage all aspects of this disclosure. And it assured the Chamber that
12 the Prosecution has taken steps to ensure that all relevant interviews
13 had been reviewed and disclosed when required. In the Prosecution's
14 response to the 74th motion for finding of disclosure violation on the
15 29th of October, 2012, the Prosecution explained that its failure to
16 disclose two documents from Defence Witness Andrej Demurenko was because
17 during the electronic search carried out for Witness Demurenko, the
18 optical character recognition technology did not recognise the documents
19 containing Colonel Demurenko's name or signature.
20 So I think that nothing we've heard today can give us any
21 confidence that the violations due to the optical character recognition
22 problems will be eradicated.
23 With respect to the 78th disclosure violation motion, the
24 Prosecution has explained that the statement was not entered into the OTP
25 evidence collection. In its Prosecution's response to the accused's
1 sixth motion for finding of disclosure violation and for remedial
2 measures on the 12th of July, 2010, some two and a half years ago, the
3 Prosecution acknowledged that the failure to disclose two proofing notes
4 for Prosecution witnesses had been through oversight and indicated that
5 the Prosecution has assigned a person to supplement the existing
6 inter-case communication regarding witness disclosure by following up
7 regarding the production of proofing notes, including their prompt
8 assignment of evidence reference numbers. It reported in its
9 Prosecution's submission of report concerning additional measures on the
10 20th of August, 2010, that that measure had been completed.
11 In the Prosecution's response to Dr. Karadzic's 48th motion for
12 finding of disclosure violation and sanctions on the 16th of May, 2011,
13 the Prosecution said that the three interview reports that it had missed
14 had been located within the internal computer network of the Prosecution
15 and had been overlooked. And they realised that they needed to search
16 certain secure drives in their network. In the Prosecution's 49th motion
17 for finding of disclosure violation on the 8th of June, on their response
18 on the 8th of June, 2011, the Prosecution explained how it missed the
19 transcript of the interview with General Vlado Lizdek because it had not
20 properly been entered into the Prosecution's evidence unit when it was
22 The Prosecution reported that in light of the oversight it had
23 identified interviews at a category of documents that should be further
24 examined and isolated interviews and undertook a systematic review of the
25 material to try to remedy the disclosure violations. In the
1 Prosecution's response to the 56th motion for finding of disclosure
2 violations on the 18th of August, 2011, the Prosecution explained that
3 the proofing note that it had not disclosed of the witness had been --
4 had not been recorded in the disclosure log by another trial team and had
5 therefore not been discovered and disclosed.
6 In the Prosecution's response to the 58th motion for finding of
7 disclosure violation, on the 7th of the September, 2011, the Prosecution
8 explained that a transcript of witness testimony in another ICTY case had
9 not been discovered because of human error. This was not the first
10 disclosure violation with respect to General Vasiljevic. In the
11 Prosecution's response to Dr. Karadzic's 71st motion for disclosure
12 violation on 15 May 2012, the Prosecution conceded that it failed to
13 timely disclose a 2005 information report of an interview with
14 General Vasiljevic, and the only explanation was that their previous
15 searches had not located this material and that it had been discovered by
16 another trial team within the Office of the Prosecutor.
17 So I think nothing that we've heard today can give us confidence
18 that the violations due to materials not being entered into the
19 Prosecution's database, can be eradicated.
20 To put these latest violations in context, the Prosecution has
21 failed to disclose 411 statements of its own witnesses which have been in
22 its possession since before May 2009 when that dead-line had expired.
23 Since the commencement of the trial, the Prosecution has disclosed
24 342.272 pages of exculpatory material, the vast majority of which was not
25 disclosed as soon as practicable and which was in its various collections
1 before the trial had commenced. On 62 occasions during the course of
2 this trial, the Trial Chamber has made an express finding that the
3 Prosecution had violated its disclosure obligations. The violations have
4 continued and will continue, and as long as the violations will continue
5 we will continue to make a record of those violations. And the
6 violations will appear likely to continue throughout the trial, your
7 deliberations, before the Appeals Chamber if there's a conviction, and
8 the review process if a conviction is re -- affirmed on appeal.
9 We welcome the Prosecution's initiative to disclose its
10 collection of witness statements known as the rules of the road
11 collection, and we see this as a very positive first step. The
12 Prosecution has disclosed to us on Friday 1474 items totalling
13 267.343 pages, which it indicates is in the B/C/S language, majority of
14 interviews conducted by authorities in Bosnia and Herzegovina after --
15 during and after the war. We see open-file disclosure as the best
16 solution to these disclosure violations. Give us the documents and the
17 time and resources to review them and we'll have no grounds to complain
18 about withheld disclosure, and there'll be no more disclosure violations
19 and no more disclosure violation motions.
20 And with the greatest respect, we believe that the Trial Chamber
21 has capitulated too readily to the obstacles to open-file disclosure
22 thrown up by the Prosecution. Sensitive material can be segregated by
23 the Prosecution, can be excluded from the access given to the Defence
24 team, and can be reviewed by the Chamber or an independent party acting
25 at its direction. After all these disclosure violations, requiring the
1 Prosecution to segregate those items is a modest burden to ensure that it
2 finally complies with its disclosure obligations.
3 Thank you for your time and attention.
4 JUDGE KWON: Do you wish to add anything, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, Your Honour, but only very briefly. I
6 mean, I agree with Mr. Robinson when he points out all the previous
7 violations and he has identified the filings and the motions and the
8 motion responses related to this. And in the disclosure report that we
9 filed on Friday, we have actually listed the -- in paragraphs 5 to 9 and
10 also in paragraph -- in footnote 3 all the major filings that show the
11 measures taken when a certain disclosure violation was found. We have --
12 and all these measures that have been taken - and Mr. Robinson has
13 actually referred to them - have one thing in common, that is that every
14 time we tried to solve the situation comprehensively and systematically
15 and we added layer of layer of searches to find these things and we did
16 find a lot of measures -- a lot of items with these additional measures.
17 And I have explained to you why in the case of the -- of the three
18 statements for Mr. Bazdar and the protected witness, why all these layers
19 still missed the items, and, that is, a text search was not successful
20 because we never had a translation and we never had a proper index for
21 the particular statements in the system. So the text searches pick up on
22 names when there is a name as a text in our system, but it wasn't for
23 these three. And I've explained why that is so.
24 And in relation to the report for Witness Vasiljevic, we have --
25 we have done all these searches and the additional measures and the
1 additional layers, but what we had not included and we had not envisioned
2 because it should not be possible, that an information report remains on
3 a personal file of an investigator and that is now what we are doing now.
4 We are searching now the personal files of persons in the Prosecution
5 team, current ones and even previous ones, that have ever dealt with
6 witnesses. And that was something that we hadn't foreseen and that is
7 yet another additional layer. So the measures that we took didn't fail.
8 The only thing is we haven't thought of this particular possibility
9 because we thought it would not happen because we have a standard
10 procedure for doing the work with witnesses.
11 And in relation to the request of an open file, I mean we have
12 already litigated that in writing and I don't want to add to this.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The booths have not been
14 given the text read by Mrs. Uertz-Retzlaff and Mr. Robinson. Thank you.
15 JUDGE KWON: Again, I appreciate the hard work by the
16 interpreters, appreciate it very much.
17 Speaking for myself, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, I'm of the opinion that
18 at the bottom of the circumstances lies the fact that the Prosecution
19 itself does not know what is contained in its very own evidence
20 collection. Is my observation correct?
21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, let me tell you, we are talking
22 about 10 million of pages. That's the extent of the evidence collection.
23 And of course nobody in this team or in any other team knows all these
24 10 million pages. That's why we have to rely on searches, electronic
25 searches, and these electronic searches should pick up all relevant
1 materials. We, of course, know our witnesses and we also now get a lot
2 of information on the Defence witnesses, but we definitely do not know
3 the content of the 10 million pages.
4 JUDGE KWON: To put it directly, do you foresee that further
5 disclosure violations are unavoidable despite the measures put in place?
6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, there is no guarantee that we
7 will not have any disclosure violations in the future. There is no
8 guarantee to this, because human error is very -- cannot be excluded and
9 our search layers, as you have seen now, although we added so many, they
10 still, for particular reasons, miss a certain item. I think we would not
11 be honest to say we can guarantee there will be no more.
12 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you for your submissions and we'll leave the
15 matter at that.
16 There's another few matters I'd like to deal with. Yes,
17 Mr. Tieger, the Chamber received a complaint from Witness Milan Martic
18 regarding the decision of the Registry denying the request to assign
19 Defence counsel. So I wonder whether, if you would like to respond to
20 that complaint; and if yes, I would like to have it by the close of
21 business tomorrow, Wednesday.
22 MR. TIEGER: Understood, Mr. President. I haven't -- am aware of
23 it generally but haven't seen it. I think the likelihood of our
24 responding is low, but it's prudent to look at it first.
25 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
1 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber received the courtesy copy and I was
2 told that it was not officially filed yet. Probably you will get it.
3 Next, Mr. Robinson probably. The Chamber received the Defence
4 motion for subpoena General Zdravko Tolimir, which was filed
5 12th of March, 2013. I wonder whether it's clear that -- from the motion
6 if the Defence has exhausted its endeavour to secure the voluntary
7 co-operation from the witness in that the last e-mail correspondence from
8 Mr. Gajic only seems to indicate that he prefers that nothing be planned
9 early March as he has a dead-line for the submission of a notice of
10 appeal. So if you could take a look into the matter.
11 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, I can advise you right now
12 because when I received that e-mail I told Professor Gajic to --if he
13 would please speak with General Tolimir, and if General Tolimir wanted to
14 testify, to let us know by the 7th of March, otherwise we would assume
15 that he didn't want to testify. And as you can see from my e-mail to
16 him, he never heard anything from him, and to this day we haven't heard
17 anything from him. So I think the best thing to do is to have a response
18 from General Tolimir to our motion. And if there's any hint that he's
19 willing to testify, we could pursue it. But from every piece of
20 information we have including his conversations with Dr. Karadzic and my
21 conversations with his legal advisor, we have no expectation whatsoever
22 that he's willing to testify in this case.
23 JUDGE KWON: So I wonder whether you would like to contact
24 Mr. Gajic one last time and then whether his notice of appeal has been
25 filed and then it's clear that the general does not want to testify.
1 MR. ROBINSON: I'll do that.
2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
3 And finally, I have to make this observation, having observed
4 evidence of Defence witnesses so far. In earlier phases of the case and
5 during the Rule 98 bis submissions, the accused made it clear that he
6 would challenge all the charges in the indictment, including the
7 occurrence of crimes. However, the Chamber has noticed that recently,
8 especially in relation to the Srebrenica component, the accused has
9 called witnesses who themselves have testified to the occurrence of
10 crimes, thus triggering the Chamber to form an impression that his
11 defence is, as a result, focusing more on his alleged responsibility for
12 or linkage to the crimes charged. More specifically, the Chamber is
13 wondering if Mr. Karadzic is conceding that certain crimes occurred. If
14 that is the case, the Chamber would appreciate if the accused or
15 Mr. Robinson could liaise with the Prosecution on certain agreed facts
16 and come back to the Chamber with the result of discussions. This would
17 be an exercise not only saving a great amount of time but also allowing
18 the Chamber and the parties to focus on more important issues.
19 Yes, Mr. Tieger.
20 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President. If I could just raise one
21 quick matter in connection with the Tolimir subpoena and, more broadly,
22 with respect to similarly situated witnesses who may arise, and that is
23 the following -- oh, and I should add this is a matter we've discussed
24 with Mr. Robinson in anticipation of this possibility. Obviously, the
25 Prosecution is in no position to meaningfully prepare for
1 cross-examination of such witnesses and even beyond that there's no
2 guarantee that these witnesses will even testify at all, and under their
3 particular circumstances may refuse. And they, as the Court recognises,
4 are witnesses whose preparation would involve extremely substantial
5 efforts because of the nature of the witness and his involvement in the
6 events. So to avoid a lavish waste of resources expended in preparation
7 for matters that do not arise for one of the two reasons I raised, we
8 agreed with Mr. Robinson - but of course it's up to the Chamber - that
9 the cross-examination of witnesses such as those would be deferred for
10 two weeks after the examination-in-chief, which would actually be half of
11 the time we would normally expect if we got a meaningful 65 ter summary
12 or a statement in advance, but at least compromises the circumstances
13 enough to take into account what would otherwise be a very unfortunate
14 wasteful expenditure of Prosecution resources and I presume Chamber
15 resources as well.
16 Thank you, Mr. President.
17 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. We have some situations such
18 as with General Krstic. We were unable to meet with the witness before
19 the witness's testimony because they refuse, and we don't know until they
20 come in to take the oath whether or not they're going to give testimony.
21 So we think it's reasonable for the Prosecution not to have to prepare
22 for that eventuality immediately. And so if, in fact, the witness
23 testifies, which we hope they will, then we think it is reasonable that
24 the Prosecution be given some period of time after the direct examination
25 to prepare for and then conduct their cross-examination. But that's
1 completely up to you, but that's how we see it anyway.
2 JUDGE KWON: Speaking for myself, it's difficult to issue its
3 guidance in vacuum at the moment. All I can say is to see how it
4 evolves, and, as one Judge says, we play it by ear.
5 Yes, Mr. Tieger.
6 MR. TIEGER: That's the problem, Mr. President. If we're simply
7 playing it by ear, then the Prosecution -- the decision is actually made.
8 The attorney handling that witness will have to prepare even if the Court
9 later decides, well, that was unnecessary and unfair given the
10 circumstances. That's why we're seeking some assurance from the Court
11 that there will be a deferral of the cross-examination under such
12 circumstances. Otherwise, we have no choice but to go ahead and prepare,
13 thereby implicating the very concerns I expressed earlier.
14 JUDGE KWON: Let us take General Krstic. Defence is in the
15 position -- I'm sorry. The Defence is not in the position to know what
16 Krstic is going to testify; correct?
17 MR. ROBINSON: Well, no, that's not exactly correct,
18 Mr. President, because we have his previous testimony in his own trial as
19 well as statement he's given to the Office of the Prosecutor as well as
20 our own factual investigation, so we have some reasonable expectation as
21 to what he would testify to if he testified.
22 JUDGE KWON: However, the Prosecution is in the same position,
23 isn't it?
24 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, it is.
25 JUDGE KWON: So why Prosecution does need more time to prepare
1 its cross-examination?
2 MR. TIEGER: Because the Rules provide for that, Mr. President.
3 This is completely different situation. It is their witness. They can
4 attempt to elicit from him what they choose, but the Rules provide for
5 the Prosecution to be noticed with the facts upon which the witness will
6 testify so that we can undertake adequate cross-examination preparation
7 in the effort to illuminate the truth. I mean, this is a quite different
8 situation, it seems to me, when the one party calls a witness from whom
9 it attempts -- it hopes to elicit favourable information to its case and
10 the other party has to, in advance, adhere itself --
11 JUDGE KWON: By the way, my question is all the material the
12 Defence has in its custody are -- have been disclosed to the Prosecution,
13 haven't they?
14 MR. TIEGER: First of all, Mr. President, we're talking about two
15 different situations. Let me go back to the situation I talked about
16 earlier and I think they would involve potentially different solutions.
17 And I began with the case of Mr. Tolimir. What you're asking is to have
18 the Prosecution - which, by the way, is working very, very long hours
19 already, as I know the Defence is - to invest a great deal of time into
20 the preparation for cross-examination of a witness who may not testify at
21 all, and who, if he does testify, may only testify to a very, very narrow
22 portion of events. Now, that strikes me as a very unfair and unnecessary
23 expenditure of Prosecution resources.
24 JUDGE KWON: Very well. I see your point.
25 But let's go back to General Krstic; why you need extra time
1 after his direct examination.
2 MR. TIEGER: It may not be the case, but it cannot -- I mean,
3 it's not fair to analogise precisely to the situation of the Defence.
4 The reason -- I mean, you could -- you could, I think, essentially scrap
5 65 ter (G) under the rationale that the Prosecution essentially can find
6 itself in essentially the same position as the Defence. The Rules
7 provide for notice of what -- and this implicates the litigation we've
8 been involved in concerning the provision of adequate 65 ter summaries
9 and now the proposal that the -- this intractable problem be resolved by
10 the provision in advance of statements. The fact is that for reasons
11 that we've come to appreciate during the course -- that all of us I think
12 have come to appreciate during the course of this case and other cases,
13 meaningful cross-examination requires meaningful notice so that the
14 cross-examination preparation can be focused. The Rules provide for
15 that, and that's all we're seeking. Now, it may well be the case that --
16 and I understand this part of the Court's position - that sometimes the
17 nature of the witness, the nature of his -- of that witness's testimony
18 can mean that the length of time after the examination-in-chief for the
19 Prosecution to fairly be asked to commence its cross-examination may
20 vary. And we were, in the case of Mr. Krstic, prepared to begin on
21 relatively short notice under that situation and we prepared to do so.
22 But, as I think the Court is now aware, that's a different situation from
23 the situation of witnesses like Mr. Tolimir. Nevertheless, the -- if
24 it's true that in some circumstances it may be possible for the
25 Prosecution to commence cross-examination right away based on its general
1 preparations for that witness, it is certainly also true that on other
2 occasions and perhaps many occasions fairness will demand that there be a
3 deferral of time before cross-examination commences.
4 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President --
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
6 MR. ROBINSON: -- speaking for myself here, I think the point is
7 that why should a party have to spin its wheels for something that might
8 not happen, given the scope of this case and the intensity of the pace of
9 the case, that's -- to me is the point because we all have many, many
10 tasks to do. This situation could well be reversed and that's why I'm
11 helping Mr. Tieger here because it's an issue of the parties, and maybe
12 the Chamber doesn't have the same problems that we do, but we don't have
13 time to prepare for witnesses who aren't going to testify - that's the
14 bottom line - and I'm sure the Prosecution doesn't either, so why make
15 them? That's how we see it.
16 JUDGE KWON: Very well. I believe the Chamber has never denied a
17 remedy which is, in fact, sound and warranted. I'll discuss with my
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We'll bring in the next witness.
21 [The witness entered court]
22 JUDGE KWON: Would the witness make the solemn declaration,
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
25 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
1 WITNESS: VELJKO MARIC
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Dr. Maric. Please be seated and make
4 yourself comfortable.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Good morning,
8 Your Honours. Good morning, everyone.
9 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
10 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Dr. Maric.
11 A. Good morning.
12 Q. Thank you. I will ask you to make pauses between questions and
13 answers and also to speak slowly so that everything would be recorded.
14 Dr. Maric, did you give a statement to my Defence team?
15 A. No.
16 Q. You didn't give any statement?
17 A. Yes, on arriving here on Saturday, I gave a statement on
19 Q. All right. Thank you.
20 A. I didn't understand you.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D7931 is the document that I would
22 ask to be shown in e-court, please.
23 THE REGISTRAR: The document has not been released, Mr. Karadzic,
24 in e-court.
25 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. As you know, the e-court
1 system was down this weekend. We've had this document sent to the people
2 who are releasing them on behalf of the Registry, and apparently they
3 haven't done that yet. So I'm not sure if we can print out a copy of the
4 statement and give it to him.
5 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Zec, do you have any objection?
6 MR. ZEC: To the statement, no.
7 JUDGE KWON: Let's proceed with the hard copies that we have.
8 Probably the witness has his hard copy as well, otherwise we can print it
9 and provide him with the statement.
10 Do you have your statement with you, Doctor?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, while this is being
13 printed, I would ask the following: Could the Chamber encourage the
14 Registry to enable me to upload from my room documents in the system? I
15 can do that during the night and then they would be released by the
16 case manager. Otherwise, sometimes we really have a problem. There is a
17 bottleneck with the uploading system and working with any electronical
18 equipment is really at 19th century level.
19 JUDGE KWON: This seems to go beyond by purview.
20 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, one thing that is within your
21 purview is the inequality of arms that we suffer as a result of the
22 e-court system because the Prosecution can upload documents directly into
23 e-court, Mr. Reid can do that; but for the Defence, apparently, they
24 don't trust us, so they put another layer. So the ITSS people from the
25 Registry are the ones who only can upload Defence documents. As we have
1 done in this case, our case manager provided the documents in the system
2 to the ITSS and has been calling them all yesterday and today to tell
3 them that these things need to be in the system but it hasn't been done
4 yet, probably because they're busy refiguring the system. But if we
5 ourselves had the same privilege as the Prosecution and could upload them
6 directly then we wouldn't have had this problem.
7 JUDGE KWON: Under the same circumstances, I take it even
8 Mr. Reid could not have been able upload it.
9 MR. ROBINSON: No, I think Mr. Reid could have uploaded it. It's
10 only because the ITSS people haven't done the part that they're supposed
11 to do that we don't have it in e-court.
12 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
13 JUDGE KWON: I was told again, the system was down for everybody.
14 We'll leave it at that.
15 Yes, let's continue, Mr. Karadzic.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would ask you anyway to ask the
17 Registry with your encouragement for a possibility to reduce the
18 inequality which has existed up until now. Let me continue.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Dr. Maric, do you now have your statement in front of you?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you. We just need to make short pauses between question
23 and answer. Can you please confirm whether you have read and signed this
25 A. Yes, I can. Yes, I have.
1 Q. Thank you. Is this statement truthful to what you told the
2 Defence team?
3 A. Yes, it is.
4 Q. Thank you. If I were to ask you the same questions today, would
5 your answers substantially be the same?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I tender this
9 statement and the associated documents to be admitted, but I have one
10 additional document which I would present viva voce.
11 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, there are three associated
12 exhibits, and although it's not indicated on our Rule 92 ter notice, I
13 haven't been able to locate them in our Rule 65 ter exhibit list so I'm
14 asking for permission to add them to the list because it appears that
15 Dr. Maric was interviewed after our list was prepared. And the third
16 document actually was -- previously the last page of 1D7239 but was not
17 related to that log so we separated it and created a separate document
18 for that.
19 JUDGE KWON: Is 1D7932 uploaded on e-court?
20 MR. ROBINSON: Well, I think it's in the same situation as the
21 statement. It was given for upload, but whether it's actually made it or
22 not, I don't know.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, it has not been uploaded in e-court
24 as of yet.
25 JUDGE KWON: And I take it there's no English translation?
1 MR. ROBINSON: I believe that there is an English translation
2 because it was the last page of 7239 at the time that 7239 was
3 translated. So probably our case manager uploaded both the document and
4 its translation.
5 JUDGE KWON: Any objections, Mr. Zec?
6 MR. ZEC: No objection to the request to add these documents to
7 the 65 ter list. However, there are several issues with these exhibits
8 that we've also communicated with the Defence last Friday and nothing has
9 been resolved. So I can go through these issues now if you like.
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
11 MR. ZEC: With respect to ID073238, we asked for redaction of
12 item numbers of --
13 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry, is it tendered?
14 MR. ZEC: It's 1D07238 --
15 JUDGE KWON: Oh, yes.
16 MR. ZEC: -- of the associated exhibits. It's not tendered.
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue.
18 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President. Before he continues,
19 I'm just wondering if Mr. Zec has received the e-mail that I sent to him
20 and Mr. Tieger which answered each of these points. So we could go
21 through it orally, but I sent an e-mail to the Prosecution team which
22 answered each of the items that Mr. Zec had raised.
23 MR. ZEC: But that e-mail hasn't resolved these issues.
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue, Mr. Zec.
25 MR. ZEC: Thank you.
1 So with respect to this first associated exhibit listed in the
2 list, we've asked for redaction of item numbers 111 to 122, at English
3 pages 1 to 5, B/C/S pages 1 and 2, because we believe they are
4 irrelevant. We asked for information why six names appear twice in this
5 log-book. With respect to 1D07239 --
6 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, shall we see it first, 1D7238. But
7 instead of spending time I wonder whether Mr. Karadzic is ready to deal
8 with these three exhibits live with the witness and resolve the issue all
10 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, we could do that.
11 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Then we'll admit the Rule 92 ter
12 statement of Dr. Maric. Shall we give the number.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, that's Exhibit D3128.
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please --
15 MR. ZEC: Mr. President.
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
17 MR. ZEC: Would you like me to address issues with other two
18 exhibits in terms of English translation and upload.
19 JUDGE KWON: Probably the Defence is aware of the situation so
20 that Mr. Karadzic could deal with it and then, if necessary, you can take
21 up the issue by way of objection or in your cross-examination.
22 MR. ZEC: Thank you.
23 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, actually, we could probably use
24 some time to get organised for this because I was the one that was
25 dealing with these objections and I have to now advise Dr. Karadzic as to
1 what the nature of them were so that he can deal with the documents. So
2 perhaps we could take an early recess for our morning break and we can
3 come back and deal with those.
4 JUDGE KWON: Shall we break 15 minutes and another 15 minutes
5 after this witness's evidence is over, if that is convenient to the
6 parties? We'll break for 15 minutes.
7 --- Break taken at 10.02 a.m.
8 --- On resuming at 10.20 a.m.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 I should now like to read the summary of the statement of
12 Dr. Veljko Maric in English.
13 [In English] Dr. Veljko Maric was a surgeon in the Foca hospital.
14 The hospital near Foca was the only hospital in the municipality,
15 although there were outpatient clinics in other towns. Before the war,
16 the hospital was run by republican organs which paid the salaries,
17 provided everyday materials and human resources. After the beginning of
18 the conflict the organising body changed from BH to the Republika Srpska.
19 Before the war, the hospital kept 30 to 90 days' worth of medical
20 supplies; however, after the conflict started the stocks of medicines
21 were used, and as the original government organs were no longer
22 functioning the supplies were not replenished. Therefore, medicine was
23 provided by humanitarian organisations and all the medicine was
24 efficiently used. Despite this, there were shortages of medical supplies
25 throughout the war.
1 The ethnic structure of the hospital staff was mixed until
2 July 1992, when Muslim employees left the hospital. These employees left
3 of their own free will, they were not driven out.
4 Veljko Maric estimates that the hospital was running on full
5 capacity throughout the war. There was no theft of medical supplies from
6 Foca hospital and the building suffered some damages from the fighting
7 which was not able to be repaired, but this only slightly affected the
8 hospital's functioning. It was difficult for patients and staff to visit
9 the hospital, as access to the hospital was blocked by the Green Berets
10 who would not let Serbs pass through the barricade particularly in the
11 first few days of the fighting. Only the wounded were allowed to pass
12 through. On 8th of April, 1992, the Green Berets stopped the bus and
13 transported the staff to the hospital -- that transported the staff to
14 the hospital and would not let it pass; therefore, the staff had to
15 continue to the hospital on foot.
16 Many patients of different ethnicities asked to be transferred to
17 areas where their ethnicity was in a majority and efforts were taken to
18 accommodate all of those requests. In 1992, the hospital staff attempted
19 to hand-over the sick children of other ethnic groups to the Muslim
20 authorities for their own safety; however, the Muslim authorities refused
21 to take them. The KPD received a separate supply of medicine from the
22 Red Cross and on a number of occasions the hospital had to borrow
23 supplies from the KPD as theirs had run out. Foca hospital also assisted
24 with medical supplies for the KPD and prisoners would be treated at the
25 hospital on a regular basis. Further, the doctors from Foca hospital
1 would treat the prisoners at the KPD when the doctors from the KPD left.
2 They provided assistance whenever it was required, usually on a daily
4 There was no relationship with the military or civilian
5 authorities and these organisations could not influence the work of the
6 doctors. The provision of medical help was not affected by religions,
7 ethnic affiliation, or skin colour. Everyone who entered the hospital
8 received treatment; no discrimination was made. As far as
9 Dr. Veljko Maric is aware, no doctors in the Foca hospital discriminated
10 on the grounds of religion or ethnicity. In the first few days of the
11 fighting, the hospital also took in civilians who had nowhere else to go.
12 Both Serb and Muslim civilians stayed and received the food.
13 [Interpretation] That is the short summary.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. And now, Dr. Maric, could we please look at a few documents.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We cannot use e-court, can we?
17 JUDGE KWON: I think, yes, we can see them. I see one -- the
18 document already.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we then call up
21 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Karadzic, that particular document has not
22 been uploaded. The other two documents are.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Then we'll try to see
24 it on the ELMO or perhaps it will be uploaded later. Could we then see
25 1D07238. Yes, we see it now.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Dr. Maric, could you look on the left side, these dates of
3 admission. The Prosecution was interested to know why these lists of
4 patients who were admitted in March and early April, 12th April,
5 et cetera, are on this list. Can you tell us what happened with those
6 patients who were admitted in March, for instance, where number 120 was
7 admitted on 12th April. Were they in the hospital in the war period and
8 for how long?
9 A. All patients were received as --
10 JUDGE KWON: Before you answer the question.
11 Yes, Mr. Zec.
12 MR. ZEC: In my translation, item 120 is received 2nd April.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Possibly, possibly. I see
15 something 1204, but that's probably the 2nd.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Could you tell us about the movement of those patients who were
18 admitted before the outbreak of the conflict?
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see the second page as
20 well while removing the English. What we see is just half of the page.
21 Could we see the other half in Serbian.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, let us collapse the English.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Could you tell the Chamber, first of all, what this document is,
25 what this book is, and then tell us about this page and these dates. Why
1 are they important?
2 A. This is a sheet of the protocol of admission of patients to the
3 paediatric ward from 111 to 120. Number 119 closes the month of March.
4 The patients who were at the hospital in Foca, including the paediatric
5 ward, numbered 59. All of them continued with their treatment until they
6 were cured and released from the hospital, specifically in this case from
7 the paediatric ward. In April 1992 we admitted patients on a daily basis
8 from Foca, Visegrad, Cajnice, Rogatica, and Gorazde. In the month of
9 April we admitted 149 patients with different conditions of Muslim
10 ethnicity. Thus, in May, June, July, August, and September we admitted
11 patients, and in that period we had 268 Muslim patients beginning with
12 pregnant women, adults, and children who sought our help. They were
13 treated and discharged throughout 1992.
14 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber about this penultimate column on
15 the right-hand side. What are these dates?
16 A. These are dates of discharge and also an indication of their
17 status and improvement and where, in which ward, they were treated.
18 Q. And tell us about column 11, could you read from top to bottom?
19 A. The ordinal number, the first one?
20 Q. No, column 11, type of service.
21 A. It says, "Improved, cured, cured, cured, improved, cured,
22 improved, improved, improved." Those are the qualifications of status of
23 patients upon discharge.
24 Q. Did it ever happen that somebody was discharged without having
25 been either improved or been cured?
1 A. No.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see the next page.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. And what about this last one? He was released on the
5 12th of April?
6 A. Yes, he was admitted on the 2nd and discharged on the 12th.
7 Q. Could you now explain this document, this page.
8 A. This is the next document in line 121 to 130, according to the
9 sequence of admission of patients to the paediatric ward.
10 Q. What is the last thing on this page number 8, column 8, the last
11 one on the left half of the page?
12 A. That's the place of residence of patients, where they lived,
13 Gorazde, Sarajevo, Gorazde, Foca, Sarajevo, Foca, Foca, Cajnice, Foca,
15 Q. Thank you. Can we see the next page. Could you explain,
16 Dr. Maric, what made people, Muslims from Cajnice and Gorazde, for
17 instance, to come amid the war for treatment to Foca. Do you have an
19 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
20 Yes, Mr. Zec.
21 MR. ZEC: Objection, leading.
22 MR. ROBINSON: Not at all, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE KWON: Why do you think it was leading, Mr. Zec?
24 MR. ZEC: Mr. Karadzic should ask the witness these facts, not
25 putting the facts to the witness.
1 JUDGE KWON: The witness confirmed these patients were from
2 certain areas, and -- I will consult my colleagues.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE KWON: Please proceed, Mr. Karadzic. We will allow the
5 question. Can you answer the question, Doctor?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The hospital in Foca is a regional
7 hospital, the regional hospital for this part of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and
8 it used to admit and still admits patients. Patients had a choice to go
9 outside of Bosnia and Herzegovina towards Uzice or Pljevlja, in
10 Montenegro, or Sokolac or Sarajevo, but they came to Foca because
11 regionally they belonged to us, they were our patients, and probably they
12 trusted us.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. It's all mixed here. Can you tell me, I'll read the names, is it
15 Serbian or Muslim, Stanimirka?
16 A. Serb.
17 Q. Nikolina --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Could this reading slow down, please.
19 JUDGE KWON: The speed is such that the interpreters couldn't
20 follow at all.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I agree. I apologise.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Enida Hajric?
24 A. Muslim; Konjo, Muslim; Hodzo Enis, Muslim; Marina Vojcic, Serb;
25 Drakul [phoen] Milici, Serb.
1 Q. This is already June and July; right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Elvedin Konjo remained until 25th September; right?
4 A. Yes.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted now
6 without going through all of it?
7 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Zec.
8 MR. ZEC: Mr. President, we still remained -- our objection that
9 we should -- that item numbers 111 to 122, at English page 1 to 5, B/C/S
10 page 1 and 2, should be redacted as irrelevant. It's before the
12 JUDGE KWON: I don't see the point of redacting one item or
13 several items, 111 to 122.
14 Yes, Mr. Robinson.
15 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, I think Mr. Zec's point is that it
16 occurred before the conflict -- it occurred in March before April, but
17 the Prosecution's case is replete with events that occurred in March
18 against -- where Serbs and Muslims were in conflict, including the
19 setting up of barricades at the beginning of March. They should also
20 exclude much of their evidence if they think it's irrelevant. So we
21 think it's relevant, and many of these patients continue -- the Muslim
22 patients continue to be admitted into the hospital after the 6th of April
23 in any event.
24 JUDGE KWON: We will receive it.
25 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D3129, Your Honours.
1 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we now have
3 1D07239 in e-court, please.
4 MR. ROBINSON: And, Mr. President, while we're waiting for that,
5 with respect -- I think this should be admitted as an associated exhibit
6 without further clarification under -- and marked for identification
7 because the Prosecution's objections to this exhibit are, number one,
8 that only the first 16 pages are translated, and that's true. We sent it
9 all to translation but they only gave us back 16 pages, so we could admit
10 that for marked for identification until we get the rest. And then they
11 said the second point for this document was that the last page was not
12 related to the rest of the pages and we agree with that, and the last
13 page is a separate document which we'll lead live. So given that those
14 were the only objections to this document, I don't see any reason why we
15 should have to lead it live.
16 JUDGE KWON: How about the last page?
17 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, the last page is a separate exhibit which we
18 will lead live. That is 7932.
19 JUDGE KWON: Which hasn't been uploaded? If it is uploaded here
20 why don't we deal with it?
21 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, I think it has -- that document has now been
22 uploaded --
23 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
24 MR. ROBINSON: -- thanks to Mr. Reid.
25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Zec.
1 MR. ZEC: No objection.
2 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We'll admit it -- but shall we mark it
3 for identification pending English translation.
4 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI D3130, Your Honours.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now have 1D7932, please,
6 the last page as a separate document.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we still can't open the document.
8 It doesn't show in our system.
9 MR. ROBINSON: Perhaps we could put it on the ELMO then.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Dr. Maric, can you tell us what can be seen on this sheet of
14 A. This is part of the protocol, or rather, it's a page from the
15 protocol of children who were sent from the children's ward to the public
16 health institution Dr. Simo Milosevic in Montenegro. Actually, these
17 children were our patients before the conflict broke out on the
18 8th of April in Foca. And at first we tried to put them in a safe place
19 because we feared for them. We didn't manage to. And they stayed with
20 us all the way up until the end of 1993, or rather, you can see here.
21 Some of them until the 29th of December and some until September 1993
22 when we used ambulances to transport them to Montenegro and the
23 Norwegian Red Cross provided for their stay at this health institution,
24 and from there they probably went to their families or somewhere else.
25 Q. Thank you. Could you explain this last one, the dates of
1 discharge, and what does the one-but-last mean, Igalo, Igalo, Igalo, what
2 does that mean?
3 A. That is a remark so that we know for the purpose of our own
4 records that this patient when leaving our hospital was put up there. So
5 that we have these records for as long as the hospital is there, for as
6 long as the medical records are there, everyone will know that these
7 patients went to Igalo because that was recorded there.
8 Q. Could you please tell the Trial Chamber what we mean by Igalo?
9 A. These children were put up at the rehabilitation centre
10 Dr. Simo Milosevic in Igalo, and they stayed there probably with the
11 assistance of the Norwegian Red Cross. They paid and that's how they
12 managed to stay on there until they were definitely put up with certain
13 families or their families, and so on.
14 Q. Thank you. The third one from the bottom, the orthopaedic clinic
15 in Podgorica; right?
16 A. Yes. First this person was transferred to the orthopaedic clinic
17 in Podgorica and then this patient was also transferred to
18 Dr. Simo Milosevic, the public health institution in Igalo.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
21 JUDGE KWON: We'll mark it for identification.
22 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI D3131, Your Honours.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Dr. Maric, did you admit only the ill? Did they send the wounded
25 to you, persons who were wounded during combat?
1 A. From the 8th of April until the end, the 30th of April, we
2 admitted 48 wounded persons, Serbs, and Muslims; 37 Muslims and 11 Serbs,
3 that is. And I'm a surgeon, I'm one of the two surgeons there, so I
4 operated on all of those people or I assisted during surgery. They were
5 treated, they were cured, they were at the surgery ward together, and
6 their comrades from the front line came there to visit them and we had no
7 problems whatsoever. We functioned normally, we worked normally. Upon
8 treatment they were discharged from hospital.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have 1D7933 in
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Dr. Asim Prutina, does the name ring a bell?
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Zec.
15 MR. ZEC: Mr. President, with respect to this document we -- the
16 only notice we got was afternoon yesterday about this document. That's
17 the only time it came up. I haven't had opportunity to see it at all.
18 Also, I would note that there was not any form of notification as to what
19 the witness is going to testify about this document, nothing in the
20 statement, there is no proofing note. So I would suggest that Defence be
21 prevented from using this document with this witness.
22 JUDGE KWON: Would you like to respond, Mr. Karadzic or
23 Mr. Robinson?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Excellencies. This is a
25 document that has an ERN number. The Prosecution obtained that and
1 they've had it for a long time. As for notification --
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, that's not an issue. Yes, what do you have to
3 say about notification? Yes.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'll ask Mr. Robinson, but
5 you did see today how much the OTP complained today, probably rightly so,
6 because of their lack of resources. Can you imagine what it's like for
7 the Defence with even less resources? We're falling flat on our faces.
8 I was tolerant when the OTP provided notification within even shorter
9 periods of time. Perhaps Mr. Robinson would have something to add.
10 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, on the 16th, Saturday, we
11 provided notice that we were going to be using this document, and I
12 believe - and I'm looking at the e-mail but I might be wrong about
13 this - but in the e-mail of the 16th which was sent to the Prosecution,
14 one of the documents that was attached to that e-mail was this document,
15 1D7933, which bears the ERN 0039-1549. So I don't understand why Mr. Zec
16 hasn't received it on Saturday with the e-mail that was sent to his team.
17 JUDGE KWON: Would you like to add anything, Mr. Zec?
18 MR. ZEC: I'm looking at the e-mail again. I don't see it. I
19 don't see it.
20 MR. ROBINSON: Perhaps if you wouldn't mind, if Mr. Zec can just
21 walk over here I'll show it to him.
22 JUDGE KWON: Given that it is just a one-page document, shall we
24 MR. ZEC: Yes, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
1 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
2 JUDGE KWON: In the circumstances, the Chamber will allow the
3 accused to use the document.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have it in e-court? All
5 right. We're going to use the ELMO then.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Dr. Maric, can you tell us whether Dr. Asim Prutina is someone
8 you know. Is the name familiar?
9 A. Yes, this is my colleague. He's an internist and he's the
10 director of the medical centre in Gorazde.
11 Q. Thank you. Can you read the heading here and can you tell the
12 Trial Chamber where Pljevlja is?
13 A. This is a list of wounded and ill patients who were sent to the
14 hospital in Pljevlja. Pljevlja is a town 100 kilometres away from
15 Gorazde in Montenegro.
16 Q. Thank you. Vulnus sclopetarium and others. Can you tell us what
17 kind of injury that is that is recorded on this page?
18 A. These are injuries due to fire-arms, all of them. All of them,
19 actually. I don't see any explosives or anything like that, so different
20 body parts were wounded by fire-arms.
21 Q. Thank you. And what about the names of the patients, do they
22 indicate any ethnic background?
23 A. It's mixed, which would correspond to the population of Gorazde,
24 different ethnic backgrounds, Serbs, Muslims.
25 Q. Aha. Carapic is the last name under 7 and 8.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Zec.
2 MR. ZEC: Perhaps Mr. Karadzic will do that, but when he said
3 there is a mix of ethnicity can we know exactly what -- where he is
4 referring to and what ethnicity these people are.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, it's Doctor's answer was mixed. Probably he
6 was about to read through.
7 Could you be more specific when you said it's mixed, Dr. Maric.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both ethnicities are there. On
9 this list of ten patients, there are two Carapic's who are Serbs and
10 there are eight Muslims who were sent to the hospital in Pljevlja.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. The Carapics are under which number?
13 A. Seven and 8.
14 Q. Thank you. Can we have the next page now. That's number 11.
15 Can you tell us who this is and can you tell us why this person was sent
16 to Pljevlja?
17 A. This is an injury of the spine, again due to a fire-arm. It is
18 Salaka Jusuf, a Muslim, who is being sent to Pljevlja.
19 Q. Thank you. Can we have the next page now. Please, again, the
20 heading, and can you tell us where Uzice is?
21 A. This is a list of persons who were wounded in Gorazde and they
22 were sent from Gorazde about 100 or 200 kilometres -- no, about
23 130 kilometres away, that's where Uzice is. That's a town in Serbia.
24 The patients were sent from Gorazde due to their injuries. Again they're
25 due to fire-arms, all the injuries registered here. Except
1 Radovic Dragoljub, the remaining nine persons are of Muslim ethnicity,
2 whereas Radovic Dragoljub is an ethnic Serb.
3 Q. Thank you. What about the date of admission?
4 A. The 4th of May, the 8th of June; that is to say, from the 4th
5 until the 8th of May, 1992.
6 Q. Thank you. Can we have the next page now. Can you just cast a
7 glance. Similar, but the first one, Goran, is a Serb and all the rest
8 are Muslims; right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can we have the next page now. Also all of them are Muslims and
11 Prutina signed this and that's the end of May; right?
12 A. Yes, the 30th of May.
13 Q. And how would you assess these wounds? Most of them are
14 sclopetarium; right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Sclopetarium, could you please explain to the participants what
17 that means?
18 A. That's an exit/entry wound due to fire-arms.
19 Q. Thank you. Could we have the next page, please. Thank you.
20 Could you please tell the Trial Chamber, again it says wounded persons.
21 Where is this Sokolac, can you tell us?
22 A. Sokolac is a hospital which is about 80 or 90 kilometres away
23 from Gorazde. It's in Bosnia-Herzegovina, or rather, Republika Srpska.
24 And two patients, on the 6th and 7th of May, were sent from Gorazde to
25 the hospital in Sokolac.
1 Q. Under whose control was Sokolac then?
2 A. Serbs controlled Sokolac, and the hospital was managed and headed
3 by Serbs.
4 Q. Thank you. And the last page, please. Can you tell us where
5 these persons were sent and what you know about that?
6 A. These were patients who came to the hospital in Foca, surgery,
7 where I work and they came on these dates here when they were sent
8 because they had been injured. They had surgery, they were treated, and
9 some of them like number 3, Prsusa [phoen] Jusuf, due to longer medical
10 treatment I transferred him to Sarajevo, to Sarajevo in Kosevo, because
11 of the chest wounds that he had sustained.
12 Q. Thank you. Mr. Prutina, Dr. Prutina, did he know who was working
13 in Foca and who he was sending patients to?
14 A. Of course. We are friends and colleagues and we just parted
15 briefly during the war. We're friends to this day. We visit each other.
16 We knew who does what and who was performing surgery because this is a
17 joint medical institution. It used to be an SOUR in the former
19 Q. Thank you. And the last page, please. Could you please tell the
20 Trial Chamber where Dr. Prutina sent these two patients, laceral
21 contusion and the other one is explosives, so it's a laceration and a
22 wound due to explosive.
23 A. Yes, these were sent to Belgrade 300 kilometres away. That's
24 what my colleague did. Since they had to be treated for a long time, he
25 thought that he should not send them to us because we were a smaller
1 institution. He immediately wanted to send them to a major medical
2 centre and that is why he decided, that is why my colleague decided, to
3 send them to Belgrade.
4 Q. Thank you, Dr. Maric.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted and,
6 actually, half of it is in Latin and the rest are names. So the only
7 thing that has to be translated are the headings.
8 JUDGE KWON: We'll mark it for identification.
9 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI D3132, Your Honours.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further
11 questions for Dr. Maric at this moment.
12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Dr. Karadzic.
13 Dr. Maric, as you have noted except for these four documents that
14 we admitted, your evidence in chief in this case has been admitted in
15 writing in lieu of your oral testimony. After a break we are going to
16 take for 15 minutes, you will be cross-examined by the representative of
17 the Office of the Prosecutor, Mr. Zec. 15 minutes. We'll resume at
18 quarter past 11.00.
19 --- Break taken at 11.01 a.m.
20 --- On resuming at 11.17 a.m.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Zec.
22 MR. ZEC: Thank you, Mr. President. I would only note that the
23 previous document that was discussed was, in fact, sent to the
24 Prosecution as Mr. Robinson suggested.
25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you for your confirmation.
1 Cross-examination by Mr. Zec:
2 Q. Good morning to you, Mr. Maric.
3 A. Good morning.
4 Q. Let me ask you first a couple of background questions. You are
5 member of the SNSD party, that is Alliance of Independent Social
6 Democrats of Milorad Dodik, are you?
7 A. Yes. I am also a deputy in Republika Srpska.
8 Q. Thank you. Before you moved to the SNSD party, you were member
9 of the SDS party; this is correct?
10 A. No. I was just a deputy after the first democratic elections.
11 My term of office was in 1997, and I was a deputy on behalf of the
12 Serbian Democratic Party and I served my duty for four years then.
13 MR. ZEC: Can we have 65 ter 24 --
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
15 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President, excuse me, Mr. Zec.
16 Mr. President, because of the ongoing technical difficulties, the
17 Prosecution exhibits aren't available to Dr. Karadzic other than being
18 printed out in hard copy. So I'm sorry to bother you with this. We
19 could ask somebody to be doing that right now, but could we perhaps take
20 another short recess so that he could have access to the exhibits that
21 the Prosecution is going to be using.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may say something about the
23 transcript. Dr. Maric said that as a representative of the
24 Serbian Democratic Party as a movement at that time. So he was not
25 necessarily a member. He was a representative on behalf of the
1 Serbian Democratic Party as a movement, and this part "as a movement" has
2 not been recorded in the transcript.
3 JUDGE KWON: How many documents are you going to use in your
4 cross-examination, Mr. Zec?
5 MR. ZEC: Not that many, Mr. President. But I just don't know
6 how we can work without e-court.
7 MR. TIEGER: Mr. President, as I understand the situation, it's
8 roughly as follows: The documents that are not available in e-court are
9 documents that were not previously in the system. In addition, Mr. Reid
10 has worked out a system which allows those documents to be shown on
11 Sanction and has e-mailed to the Defence hard copies of those particular
12 documents. The problem is that while Mr. Robinson has those documents
13 because of the e-mail system, I understand that Mr. Karadzic does not
14 have access to e-mail from where he's sitting, so he can't simply click
15 on those documents and see them, so, and -- which is why, I understand,
16 he's asking for the hard copies.
17 JUDGE KWON: If we adjourn and resume at 11.30, would it be
18 sufficient, about eight minutes?
19 MR. ROBINSON: I think so. There's 15 documents to be printed
20 out. I think it can be done.
21 JUDGE KWON: We'll do so.
22 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And this portal should stop being
24 the portal of the accused, it should become the portal of the Defence so
25 that I could use it too.
1 JUDGE KWON: I was told that it is now -- they are now available
2 in the e-court. Then we can continue.
3 MR. ZEC: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 I asked that 65 ter 24730 be brought up.
5 Q. And this is, Dr. Maric, a publication of the SDS party for
6 Serbian lands entitled programme. Can we have next page in B/C/S.
7 Dr. Maric, can you confirm that we see here Srbinje. Can you confirm
8 that Srbinje was the new name of Foca after the Bosnian Serb authorities
9 renamed the town?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you confirm under item number 1 it is your name?
12 A. Yes, that's right.
13 MR. ZEC: I will tender this, Mr. President.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a list of candidates for
15 the elections in 1997. This is the election list for the local
16 elections, the first democratic ones held in 1997 where I'm shown.
17 JUDGE KWON: So you are tendering the first page and this page?
18 MR. ZEC: And there is one more page. The list goes on to the
19 next page. In total three pages.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll admit it.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6203, Your Honours.
22 MR. ZEC:
23 Q. Do you know, Dr. Maric, the accused in this case either privately
24 or professionally?
25 A. I do, I do.
1 Q. How exactly?
2 A. Well, Dr. Karadzic is the president of Republika Srpska. He was
3 the first president of Republika Srpska.
4 Q. And you knew him -- so, for example, did you meet him during the
5 war personally?
6 A. Well, I knew who Dr. Karadzic was as he's a psychiatrist. I had
7 an occasion during the times of the former Yugoslavia to meet him at some
8 lectures and meetings of doctors, doctors from the former Bosnia and
10 Q. And only quick yes or no answer. During the war, did you have an
11 opportunity to meet him personally?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Would you remember the date, occasion?
14 A. The president of the republic visited the health institution,
15 that is to say the hospital, in Foca and that was the first time I met
16 the president during the war.
17 Q. Thank you. You told us in paragraph 5 of your statement that the
18 conflicts which spread across Bosnia and Herzegovina forced people to go
19 where their own people were. Dr. Maric, by the end of 1992, there were
20 almost no non-Serbs living in Foca; correct?
21 A. No. Foca is a town which had a population of approximately
22 50 per cent Serbs and 50 per cent Muslims.
23 Q. Petko Cancar from Foca told the RS Assembly and the accused on
24 2nd April 1993 that only one people lives on the territory of Foca and
25 there's only one religion practiced there. This was the reality of Foca
1 in 1993, Dr. Maric, wasn't it?
2 A. In 1993 that was during the war, rather than before the war; that
3 is, during the war. But you have seen that I mentioned that life was
4 not -- I had 260, I wanted patients at the hospital. How many there were
5 in the town, this I don't know. 268 non-Serb patients are those that I
6 had at the hospital, so certainly their families were there as well, but
7 I don't know how many people that was.
8 MR. ZEC: I refer to P01367, English page 25, B/C/S e-court
9 page 17.
10 Q. In May 1993 at the 30th Assembly, Petko Cancar said:
11 "I cannot persuade the international community, but I can
12 persuade you that there is currently not a single Muslim in the area of
13 the largest municipality in the former BH."
14 Again, Dr. Maric, this was the reality of Foca in 1993; correct?
15 A. Well, let me not repeat once again, as I don't know this. I'm
16 not familiar with Petko Cancar's statements and I cannot interpret them.
17 But I started from the point of view of my work. That was the number of
18 patients I had, so on the basis of that I can judge how many families
19 were there as well because probably the patients were not there alone
20 with other families.
21 MR. ZEC: I referred to P01371, English page 78, B/C/S e-court
22 page 38.
23 Q. Just everyone is clear, Dr. Maric, Petko Cancar was -- had
24 several official positions during the war. He was member of the
25 Crisis Staff in Foca in 1992, he was deputy in the RS Assembly, and he
1 was appointed advisor to the RS Presidency in July 1992. Can you confirm
2 this, Dr. Maric?
3 A. He held many positions. I don't really know all of them, to be
4 honest, but he had positions at the republican level before the war and
5 after the war and also in the local community. And, by the way, he is a
6 lawyer by occupation.
7 Q. This is in D00440, page 3, and P03333, page 40. Dr. Maric, were
8 you present in Foca for the town celebration of St. Nikola's day in 1994
9 during which officials of the RS leadership and religious heads were
10 present? Were you there?
11 A. I don't remember. I don't remember. I don't remember. But
12 considering my profession, probably I was present if I was there, but I
13 don't remember.
14 Q. Let me show you a short video-clip of this event, and this is a
15 speech made by Momcilo Krajisnik, president of the RS Assembly. I will
16 be asking you to tell us whether you recognise the location and people
18 MR. ZEC: Can we have 65 ter -- sorry, 65 ter 40254A, videotape
19 V000-1078, time code 31 minutes, 4 seconds, 32 minutes, 52 seconds, date
20 is 21 May 1994.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Momcilo Krajisnik: Brothers and
23 sisters, high priests, president of Srbinje Municipal Assembly, members
24 of the Assembly, dear professor Kilibarda [phoen], dear people of
25 Srbinje, it is a great pleasure to be among you after two and a half
1 years. Today, unlike before, I see a true Serbian town. You proudly
2 bear your true Serbian name. You are the example to all Serbs because
3 you have managed to eliminate what was coming from this town. You
4 prevented it so it would not happen. From this town, from this
5 community, the hardest things were aimed at the Serbian people by the
6 then-leaders of the Serbian ... um ... Muslim organisation, the
7 organisation SDA. Mr. Izetbegovic then said that this town would be
8 another Mecca. But you would not allow that. And for that, in the name
9 of all Serbs, I thank you."
10 MR. ZEC:
11 Q. Did you recognise this event, Dr. Maric?
12 A. Yes, this is Momcilo Krajisnik who is standing on the pavement
13 and giving a speech in front of the Municipal Assembly.
14 Q. In Foca?
15 A. In Foca.
16 Q. Did you recognise people present?
17 A. Well, I see some uniformed people. I didn't really pay attention
18 and it doesn't really mean much.
19 Q. Mr. Krajisnik said that Srbinje is a true Serbian town that
20 proudly bears its Serbian name which, in fact, it was called Foca once
21 before; correct?
22 A. Yes, the town was called Foca up until the decision of the
23 Municipal Assembly by which the name of the town was changed to Srbinje.
24 MR. ZEC: Your Honours, I tender this.
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive it.
1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6204, Your Honours.
2 MR. ZEC:
3 Q. Miroslav Stanic, member of the Crisis Staff in Foca, made
4 statements on the Serbian television at Pale about the dedication of the
5 Serbian commanders in Foca, as a result of which he said Foca is free
6 without having a constant headache from the Mujezins singing from the top
7 of the minarets. This was the reality of Foca, Dr. Maric. By the end of
8 1993 there was no mosques. There was no Mujezins in Foca; correct?
9 A. That was the policy I'm not familiar with. What I do know is
10 that I received 352 dead at the morgue of the hospital. They were dead
11 soldiers and civilians. And from the hospital morgue, as I was the
12 manager during those years, they were all sent, 646 dead people from
13 Foca. And as for the policies pursued by Miroslav Stanic, this is
14 something I'm not familiar with.
15 MR. ZEC: I refer Your Honours to P03476, page 4.
16 Q. Mr. Karadzic was in Foca in August 1993 and you received him
17 there, and I believe you told us at the beginning about this event.
18 Among the people present at the time there were Mr. Karadzic,
19 Vojislav Maksimovic, Petko Cancar, Colonel Marko Kovac, and you,
20 Dr. Maric. Can you confirm this?
21 A. President Karadzic visited the hospital with his wife,
22 Vojislav Maksimovic, professor and dean of the university, as in 1993 on
23 the 15th of October in Foca. Thanks, among others, to the local and
24 republican authorities, the medical and dental universities started
25 working with enrolment of the first students and now it's been already 20
1 years that it's in operation. So this could have been the visit during
2 which I was present.
3 Q. I asked you if these particular persons were present, do you
4 recall, for example, Colonel Marko Kovac being there, commander of the
5 tactical group Foca?
6 A. No, no, no, no.
7 Q. Let's see a transcript of the video of the radio broadcast of
8 this event.
9 MR. ZEC: Can we have 65 ter 24728A.
10 JUDGE KWON: Do you see at line 21 of the previous page. Could
11 you give the reference number again.
12 MR. ZEC: My apologies. It's P03476, page 4.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
14 MR. ZEC:
15 Q. Dr. Maric, in front of you there will be a transcript of the
16 radio broadcast of the event that we are talking about. It starts with a
17 report about the visit. It refers to you, among other people. And there
18 is also a speech made --
19 JUDGE KWON: Could you wait until we have it.
20 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
21 MR. ZEC: I believe we have it. Can I continue?
22 Q. And it -- as you will be able to see, Dr. Maric, it starts with
23 report about the visit --
24 JUDGE KWON: Can you see? I don't have it in front of me.
25 MR. ZEC: I'm sorry, I thought that we had it. Can I continue?
1 Q. So -- and then there is a speech made by Mr. Karadzic which is on
2 the second part of the page. Can we scroll down. He talks about Foca
3 and about its future. At the bottom of the page and in next page
4 Mr. Karadzic refers to the negotiations, and according to him the Muslim
5 side does not ask for Zvornik or Foca anymore - can we also have next
6 page - but for Visegrad and Bratunac which cannot be given. He said, and
7 this is at second page:
8 "It is important for the citizens of Foca to know that the Muslim
9 republic gave up on Foca."
10 Can we have last page, page number 3 in both languages.
11 Mr. Maric the B/C/S should be on the screen, B/C/S. I would like
12 to read this portion of the transcript and I would like you to confirm
13 this -- that these were your words. Can you see it, Dr. Maric?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. ZEC: Mr. President, I would tender this transcript.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please see the key so we
17 could see who UM is.
18 MR. ZEC: Dr. Maric, I believe, just confirmed these were his
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I did not confirm
21 the words. I'm reading the text which is presented to me. Please,
22 please. Since January 1993 I was the acting director of the hospital in
24 MR. ZEC:
25 Q. My apologies. I have to interrupt you. But if you read this
1 portion, perhaps you can remember whether these were your words; and if
2 not, so I can play you tape -- I can play the tape of this portion.
3 A. Well, look, it's been 20 years.
4 Q. I understand. But if you read, perhaps you'll recall. And you
5 recalled event at the beginning when I asked you about this event. It
6 refers to the Serbian university --
7 A. [No interpretation]
8 Q. Go on.
9 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, I think we should see the video,
10 then this would be no doubt.
11 JUDGE KWON: I think it's an audio.
12 MR. ZEC: It is an audio, a radio broadcast.
13 MR. ROBINSON: Perhaps we can hear it so that the witness can see
14 if he recognises his voice.
15 MR. ZEC: So I need 65 ter 24728A, clip number 2.
16 [Audio-clip played]
17 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Unknown man: ... with the work for
18 which we are motived. We have shown that we can continue and
19 President Mr. Radovan Karadzic will continue to be happy with our work,
20 as he approves our plans and encourages us in our sound medical views
21 about the future and in general, both with respect to the clinical centre
22 and the education facilities, to establish a Serbian university. The
23 three faculties which it will comprise with a high quality will be the
24 same level of quality as the one at Sarajevo university when it was set
25 up in 1946. Again, this medical school must be the first faculty to open
1 up in our new state."
2 MR. ZEC:
3 Q. Dr. Maric, are you satisfied that these were your words?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. Thank you very much.
6 MR. ZEC: Mr. President, I would tender this clip.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
8 MR. ZEC: And when I said "clip," the whole thing.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I?
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes --
11 MR. ZEC:
12 Q. Can you perhaps wait, Dr. Maric, I have limited time. Unless it
13 is related to this clip, and if you can ask Chamber to allow you to
15 JUDGE KWON: We'll receive it.
16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6205, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE KWON: Dr. Maric, did you want to add anything?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I'm asking to say
19 that the university in the Serbian Sarajevo, the medical and dentistry
20 school in Foca is part of the university in Serbian Sarajevo. That's all
21 I wanted to add. On 15th of October we started working at the university
22 as well, and these preparations started in 1992 so that there would be
23 two university schools in a town that had never had a university before.
24 My -- that was the thrust of my speech.
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue.
1 MR. ZEC: Mr. President, may I just clarify that we have this
2 complete clip in evidence from the beginning when the reporter speaking,
3 Dr. Karadzic's speech, and Dr. Maric's speech.
4 JUDGE KWON: When I said we would admit it, I meant the pages we
5 saw. But how many pages?
6 MR. ZEC: Three pages I believe, the complete thing, and we can
7 provide those to all, just in case.
8 JUDGE KWON: I don't see any difficulty with it, Mr. Zec.
9 MR. ZEC: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 Q. Mr. Maric, let's talk about your colleagues, non-Serb doctors at
11 the Foca hospital. You told us in paragraph 5 that they left the
12 hospital and that no one drove them out. In fact, Dr. Maric, soon after
13 the conflict in Foca started, non-Serb doctors and other non-Serb
14 employees of the Foca hospital were either expelled or detained at
15 KP Dom Foca, were they?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Are you saying that there was no non-Serb doctor detained at the
18 KP Dom?
19 A. No, no.
20 Q. Among the non-Serb doctors that were detained at the KP Dom were
21 Dr. Amir Berberkic, Dr. Aziz Torlak, Dr. Ibrahim Karovic, medical
22 technicians, Mato Ivancic, Izet Causevic, Zeco Mehmedspahic, Karabegovic,
23 and others. Are you aware, Dr. Maric, that these people, your
24 colleagues, were detained at the KP Dom?
25 A. My colleague Amir Berberkic was wounded. I operated on him on
1 both of his knees. And after he was successfully treated, he left
2 probably as a prisoner. He found himself in prison. Dr. Aziz Torlak was
3 supposed to reunite with his family and with the medical convoy he left,
4 and later I learned he was in the prison in Foca. My other colleagues
5 were from the health centre. However, in early 1992 they had some
6 problems at the health centre and they were probably transferred from the
7 health centre because of those disagreements, I'm talking about
8 Dr. Ibro Karovic, into the KP Dom. The medical technicians did not leave
9 the hospital. They probably placed themselves at the disposal. Nobody
10 was taken away from the building of the hospital. I say that with full
11 responsibility except that Dr. Torlak left with a medical convoy towards
12 Rogatica. They were in town not at the hospital, so they did not leave
13 from the hospital and they were not taken away from the hospital.
14 Q. This Chamber has received evidence that Dr. Aziz Torlak was
15 brought to the KP Dom from his work-place at the hospital; were you aware
16 of this?
17 A. Dr. Torlak -- in fact Dr. Seku Stanic [phoen], director of the
18 hospital --
19 Q. It was a simple question. Yes or no?
20 A. I cannot. I'm trying to tell you that Dr. Torlak was taken away
21 with all the papers by a medical convoy. He was given an ambulance, too,
22 to take him home. He was going to Rogatica, and then probably on the way
23 from the hospital along those 2 kilometres this ambulance was stopped and
24 Aziz was placed in the KP Dom, because I visited 15 days later to see
25 what happened because he's my colleague, a surgeon. He was going home
1 and he found himself in the KP Dom. I went with a colleague to the
2 KP Dom to see what I can do because I'm a responsible person, a
3 responsible work colleague, and that was my duty.
4 MR. ZEC: Mr. President, I refer to P03335, page 1212. Can we
5 have now 65 ter 24767.
6 Q. This is an order issued by Colonel Marko Kovac, commander of the
7 Tactical Group Foca. This order was issued pursuant to the order of the
8 VRS Main Staff for the release and hand-over of Dr. Karovic to the
9 representative of the exchange commission, Slobodan Mitrovic. Dr. Maric,
10 your colleague, Dr. Karovic, was detained at the KP Dom; correct?
11 A. He's a colleague from the health centre, but that's true. He is
12 a colleague from a different health institution.
13 MR. ZEC: I tender this document, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive it.
15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6206, Your Honours.
16 MR. ZEC:
17 Q. Let's talk about the medical treatment at the KP Dom. Dr. Maric,
18 the KP Dom detainees died as a result of lack of medical treatment. Did
19 you know that?
20 A. No, and I don't believe it.
21 Q. This Chamber has received evidence that KP Dom detainees
22 Esad Hadzic, Omer Kunovac, and Ibrahim Sandal died as a result of
23 sickness and beatings. Were you aware that this was happening at the
24 KP Dom, Dr. Maric?
25 A. All the sick and seriously ill from the KP Dom were brought to us
1 to the hospital. They were treated or operated on regardless of the fact
2 that they were at the correctional penitentiary facility. It's
3 impossible for a person to have died without having been to the hospital
4 before. You should look at the documentation from the hospital and you
5 would see that I operated on people from the prison. They came to get
6 specialised treatment, but what was going on at the prison I don't know
7 because I had no occasion to see it.
8 MR. ZEC: Your Honours, I refer to P03568 page 2824 and P03335,
9 page 1230 to 33 and page 1255.
10 Q. Dr. Maric, among the detainees at the KP Dom there were
11 Asim Hadzimuratovic, Hamdija Hadzimuratovic, and Rasim Jusufovic, former
12 patients of the Foca hospital who had heart surgery performed on them
13 before the war. They did not receive treatment for their condition
14 during the detention. Did you know this, Dr. Maric?
15 A. No, no.
16 MR. ZEC: I referred to P03335 page 1220 to 21.
17 Q. This Chamber has also received evidence that during the winter
18 1992/1993, the KP Dom detainees were held in the cells with no heating
19 provided. The food and the hygienic conditions were poor. Some of the
20 detainees had lost up to 40 kilos of their body weight by this point.
21 Some got lice on their bodies. Were you aware of these conditions at the
22 KP Dom, Dr. Maric?
23 A. Health care for detainees in the prison is the responsibility of
24 agencies outside the public health care fund or budget, so I was not
25 aware of this. All they needed the hospital could have provided to them.
1 My colleagues went to see those patients when their own doctors were
2 absent. They came to the hospital to be seen. That's all I know. I've
3 been to the KP Dom only once when I went there to see -- to visit my
4 colleague, Dr. Aziz, to see what had happened to him.
5 MR. ZEC: Your Honours, I refer to P03335, page 1226 to 28.
6 Q. This Chamber has received evidence that a male nurse by the name
7 of Gojko Jokanovic was the only medical personnel at the KP Dom and that
8 Dr. Cedomir Dragovic visited the KP Dom. Dr. Dragovic was a
9 gynaecologist, wasn't he, Dr. Maric?
10 A. Yes, his specialisation was gynaecology.
11 MR. ZEC: I refer Your Honours to P03335, page 1266; and
12 page [sic] 03349, page 3.
13 Q. Dr. Amir Berberkic testified in the case of Milorad Krnojelac
14 that Dr. Drago Dragovic and later Dr. Vladicic [phoen] came to the KP Dom
15 once a week and that there was a queue during the visits. They only
16 asked prisoners about their health in the presence of the guards without
17 conducting any examination. This is at transcript page 23 -- sorry, 3740
18 to 41 of the Krnojelac case. Dr. Maric, this was how the medical
19 treatments were conducted at the KP Dom. Did you know this?
20 A. I don't know, but I cannot accept that a doctor would go there
21 and conduct an examination in that way. That is contrary, it cannot fit
22 in with our concept of medicine and the Hippocratic oath.
23 Q. Let's talk about the log-books that you referred to in
24 paragraphs 11, 12, 21 to 23 of your statement. It is my understanding
25 that you provided copies of these log-books, did you?
1 A. The service.
2 Q. And then you took from the service and you provided to the
3 Defence copies of these log-books that we talked about earlier?
4 A. The service. No, that's the regular service that took only the
5 documents because there are permanent records of the hospital and it can
6 be obtained at the request of the proper agencies. I only approved it.
7 It all came officially. I did not bring any documents, but I have the
8 originals in the archives in the hospital.
9 Q. I take it it was you who decided which pages should be provided,
10 did you?
11 A. No, no. Well, we couldn't do that with protocols. We have
12 protocols covering 1500 to 2.000 patients. The number admitted in 1992,
13 we couldn't take all of that. We took only examples, samples to show
14 you, for you to see that there were 268 non-Serb patients treated that
16 Q. Let's first have a look at the log-book of the children's
17 department, 1D07238.
18 MR. ZEC: Your Honours, in order to get through this material
19 fast I have prepared charts for the log-books that Dr. Maric provided and
20 I have hard copies of these charts and also they are uploaded in e-court
21 as 65 ter 24796.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we get an explanation why
23 there is no type of service indicated or no outcome of the treatment.
24 Why is this selected in this way?
25 MR. ZEC: Your Honours, I -- we considered to include what is the
1 issue before the Chamber --
2 JUDGE KWON: Let us see how it is.
3 MR. ZEC:
4 Q. Dr. Maric, if you look at the chart that you have in front of you
5 of the children's department log-book, it shows that 15 Muslim children
6 were received at the hospital in the period from 7 April 1992 to
7 3 December 1992. Dr. Maric, these children survived some of the most
8 horrific events. They watched their parents being killed or expelled and
9 they were left behind. Were you aware of this?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have a reference to this?
11 What kind of examination is this? How do we know this? Where is this
13 MR. ZEC: These are my questions for the witness --
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is testifying. This is not a
15 question. We don't have a reference for this --
16 MR. ZEC: [Overlapping speakers]... coming up also.
17 JUDGE KWON: He is. He's doing his cross-examination,
18 Mr. Karadzic. This is an improper intervention on your part.
19 Please continue, Mr. Zec.
20 MR. ZEC:
21 Q. So did you know, Dr. Maric, what happened to these children?
22 A. Of course I do. I'm a doctor at that hospital. What we see on
23 the screen is the sequence of admission. This is a protocol of the
24 paediatric department. Every ward has its own protocol, its own record
25 of admission of patients into that ward. This is the sequence in which
1 they were admitted and discharged with the result of having improved or
2 been cured or transferred to a different health care institution. These
3 are the categories we have in the medical profession.
4 JUDGE KWON: While your time is up -- but let us be clear, what
5 document are we looking at now? Are we looking at the same document?
6 MR. ZEC: Correct, Mr. President. So this is -- on the screen is
7 document 1D07238 and you should have chart -- the first page of the chart
8 like an overview that's been prepared of this log-book. That's on the
9 hard copy that I gave to you.
10 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, also, I think Dr. Karadzic did
11 have a good point. When you look at line 61 -- page 61, line 4, that --
12 whenever it's been put to the witness, that's a statement by the
13 Prosecution. So then he -- when it came time to ask his question he just
14 said: Do you know what happened to these children? But that was not the
15 same question he was implying by his own intervention. So I think he
16 should be required to put to the doctor whether or not the doctor knows
17 that the children that are listed here survived and watched their parents
18 being killed or expelled while they were left behind. Since the
19 Prosecutor made that statement, he should be required to put that to the
21 MR. ZEC: And I will, Your Honours, in a minute or two.
22 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
23 MR. ZEC:
24 Q. Dr. Maric, did you know children by the name of Kemal Soro and
25 Azra Ramovic?
1 A. No, not by name.
2 Q. Kemal is listed in item 160 of this log-book and it is at English
3 page 18, B/C/S page 5, of the log-book. Kemal is also listed in the
4 chart in front of you. We have his statement. Kemal said that one
5 day --
6 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Let's do it one by one. So show the
7 Kemal one from the chart.
8 MR. ZEC: Mr. President, in the B/C/S if you look at the last,
9 last row you see it's one -- item number 160.
10 JUDGE KWON: So make sure that e-court is following so that the
11 witness can see the document.
12 MR. ZEC: I will.
13 Q. Dr. Maric, we have statement of Kemal. He said that one day Serb
14 soldiers attacked his house in the area of Foca called Codor Mahala. His
15 father and his uncle were taken to the KP Dom. Kemal moved to his
16 grandparents' house about 2 kilometres away. His mother and brother
17 stayed in Foca. The statement of Kemal is 65 ter 24774. We can have it
18 on the screen, and I need page 4. Kemal said that the Serb soldiers
19 attacked this area as well. They set the house on fire, and Kemal heard
20 shots. He was hiding on a tree nearby.
21 MR. ZEC: We would need page 4 of the statement, Mr. Registrar.
22 Q. Next morning everyone from the house was missing, Kemal's
23 grandfather, uncle, two aunts, and their children. Kemal went to the
24 house of Serb neighbour. The neighbour directed Kemal to the hospital.
25 At the hospital Kemal was placed into a room with Muslim children only.
1 There was a girl by the name of Azra.
2 MR. ZEC: Mr. President, if you look at the chart Azra Ramovic is
3 listed in the log-book twice at item numbers 153 and 182 at English
4 pages 17 and 29, B/C/S pages 5 and 8. According to the log-book, Azra
5 was 4 in 1992. Kemal said that Azra had injuries all over. Azra told
6 Kemal that his mother and brother were killed at the house in Foca where
7 she was. According to Azra, soldiers set the house on fire and shot
8 those outside, the people that were in the house.
9 Q. Dr. Maric, this is what was happening to these children. Were
10 you aware of this?
11 A. I don't have the protocols on the screen showing these children.
12 I'm not a paediatrician, but I know the rules. Since the paediatric ward
13 is small, and if they have been successfully treated but still remain in
14 the hospital, then we placed them in departments where there is room. I
15 had the Serbian version of the protocol. Now I see only the English one,
16 but I could see that he, this boy, was moved to the ophthalmology
17 department. I don't know anything about these events if you ask me about
18 them. I'm a surgeon and for 30 days I did not leave the OR. I don't
19 know the things that you want me to answer. That's the only fair thing I
20 can say.
21 Q. Dr. Maric, the Serb authorities considered these children for
22 exchange, that is, to send them over to the other side in order to get a
23 Serb back. Did you know this?
24 A. Yes, I believe we were the one to suggest first that children
25 should be united with their families, but we did not succeed. Where we
1 did succeed is that one boy, Djuderija, was exchanged for some of our
2 people. But I don't really remember this exactly. It was the wish of
3 the authorities of both sides, I suppose, because they knew about these
4 children who remained in the hospital in Foca.
5 MR. ZEC: Can we have P06080.
6 Q. And this is a combat report sent by Colonel Marko Kovac to the
7 Herzegovina Corps in October 1992. In item number 3 he refers to the
8 visit of the ICRC to the hospital, and according to this report they
9 talked to the Muslim children. At the end of the report Colonel Kovac
10 refers to these children again, and he said:
11 "If there is interest, we have 21 Muslim child and a number of
12 women for exchange or we would send them to Gorazde."
13 This is, Dr. Maric, how it was dealt with these children. Did
14 you know this?
15 A. No, no. I've already stated --
16 Q. Let's have a look --
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness be allowed to
18 have a say?
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes. What did you wanted to say, Mr. -- Dr. Maric?
20 Did you want to say something in response?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said I don't want such statements
22 made about patients regardless of their ethnicity at the hospital in
23 Foca. We treated all patients the best we could under those
24 circumstances, with the food we had, with the supplies we had. We did
25 not treat them according to their ethnic background. I've never stated
1 that. I've never said anything of the kind.
2 MR. ZEC:
3 Q. Let's have a look at the log-book of the --
4 JUDGE KWON: How much more do you need, Mr. Zec?
5 MR. ZEC: Your Honours, what I have prepared is I want to deal
6 with the general admission log-book, there's a second log-book, and I had
7 two newspaper articles about Foca today and the witness. So if you allow
8 me, I would only cover the next log-book and I would finish.
9 JUDGE KWON: It seems you do not pay any attention to the
10 time-limit the Chamber has imposed.
11 MR. ZEC: I'm trying my best, Mr. President, and we had problems
12 with e-court and I'm trying -- and I apologise to cutting witness's
13 answer. I'm doing my best.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE KWON: Please continue. I'm confident you can conclude
16 before the break.
17 MR. ZEC: I will do my best.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
19 MR. ZEC: And I can stop whenever you wish me to. Can we have a
20 look at admission log-book, that is 1D07239, and can we have it on the
22 And, Mr. President, I also prepared charts for this log-book that
23 should be also in front of you like second document.
24 Q. You told us in paragraph 15 that the Serbian population was
25 prevented from coming to the hospital during first days of the conflict
1 because it was blocked by the Green Berets. Dr. Maric, the admission
2 log-book that you provided shows that during this period there were
3 patients of Serb ethnicity received at the hospital. Were you aware of
5 A. The first wounded person of Serb ethnicity could have entered the
6 Foca hospital on the 14th of April, 1992; that is Marijan Blagojevic.
7 From the 8th until the 14th, not a single wounded Serb person could have
8 reached the hospital. It was only civilians who were admitted into the
9 hospital and there was no obstacle for civilians and ill persons. I
10 already said that we had our first wounded person admitted on the 14th of
12 Q. Dr. Maric, if you look at the chart in front of you, that's the
13 paper I provided earlier. Dr. Maric, it's hard copy. So if you take
14 second document, that one, exactly. So if you look at that chart and
15 that chart represents list of patients of Serb ethnicity that were
16 received at the hospital in the period that we have in the log-book, that
17 is from 7 April to 23 May. Please keep in mind, Dr. Maric, that each
18 page of the B/C/S version of the log-book contains ten entries except for
19 page 1 and 37 which have 11 entries. If you look at the chart, the
20 column called B/C/S, you will be able to see that there were number of
21 patients of Serb ethnicity received at the hospital during the first days
22 of the conflict. For example, item numbers 2551 to 2670 at pages 1 to 12
23 of the B/C/S and 1 to 35 of the English cover period --
24 JUDGE KWON: I'm not sure I'm following.
25 MR. ZEC: So I'm referring to the log-book so -- and also --
1 JUDGE KWON: Why don't you take one by one. I can't follow this.
2 MR. ZEC: So if you take that chart, Mr. President --
3 JUDGE KWON: What I received is just English showing the number
4 of item -- the numbers.
5 MR. ZEC: Exactly, and that represents names of Serb ethnicity
6 that were received at the hospital during the period we have in the
8 JUDGE KWON: So why don't we show the witness the correct column
9 and rows.
10 MR. ZEC: On the screen. Yes, we can do that. So it's
11 65 ter 24796.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We do not have the paper
13 copies of those documents.
14 JUDGE KWON: Rest assured they are just numbers. You can follow
16 MR. ZEC: 65 ter 24796. Second page, please.
17 Q. Dr. Maric, if you look the column B/C/S, each entry represents
18 Serb patient received at the hospital and it covers all the entries from
19 the beginning down to number 2667 represent Serb names. And this is the
20 period from 7 to 17 April, which is ten days into the conflict. During
21 these ten days there were about 40 patients of Serb ethnicity received at
22 the hospital out of 121 entries for that period. So, Dr. Maric, patients
23 of Serb ethnicity were received at the hospital during the first days of
24 the conflict; correct?
25 MR. ROBINSON: Well, Mr. President, this list that we're given it
1 doesn't include the names, so how is the doctor supposed to --
2 JUDGE KWON: I think he's putting his --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please.
4 JUDGE KWON: Let's hear the witness.
5 Yes, Doctor.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please. I've said that wounded
7 persons and injured persons could not enter the hospital in Foca until
8 the 14th of April, 1992. Marijan Blagojevic was the first patient. Ill
9 persons could probably be admitted because that was the only way in which
10 it could be done. There was a war in Foca that went on for about eight
11 days, fighting in town, and that was dangerous for all citizens. And
12 what you see there in the protocol, those are ill persons. They came and
13 that's why we admitted them. I've already said to the Defence, too, that
14 we admitted wounded persons from Gorazde but we could not receive people
15 from Foca because the road to the KP Dom across the Drina bridge, the
16 iron bridge, was probably under some control and the forces would decide,
17 probably, who they would let pass to the hospital. That is my
19 MR. ZEC:
20 Q. Majority of the patients that asked for medical treatment at this
21 first initial period were non-Serbs; however, by the end of April and in
22 May the number of non-Serb patients drops and the number of Serb patients
23 increases. If we look, for example, page 3 of the chart, these names
24 listed there are also Serb -- patients of Serb ethnicity. And you can
25 see every day -- like each page that you see B/C/S represents ten entries
1 and as you can see every page contains majority of Serb patients that
2 were received at the hospital. And this covers period late
3 April/beginning of May. So were you aware that almost --
4 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Let's stop here. You said names --
5 let me see. These names listed there are also -- where are these names
6 appearing? You are saying that these numbers represent Serbs --
7 MR. ZEC: That's the better --
8 JUDGE KWON: -- according to the original chart?
9 MR. ZEC: That's the better way to put it, yes.
10 JUDGE KWON: And then you say B/C/S represents ten entries, what
11 do you mean by that?
12 MR. ZEC: So every page in the B/C/S version of this log-book has
13 ten entries.
14 JUDGE KWON: How is it clear from this document?
15 MR. ZEC: But --
16 JUDGE KWON: That's your analysis?
17 MR. ZEC: Exactly. You would have to go back to the original
18 log-book and you will be able to see that.
19 JUDGE KWON: And then you may put the question to the Doctor.
20 MR. ZEC:
21 Q. So, Doctor, were you aware that almost by the end of May there
22 were almost no non-Serb patients received at the hospital?
23 A. Ill persons and wounded persons go to hospital, not Serbs and
24 Muslims, first and foremost. Secondly, I said for 268 ill persons, if
25 you will, patients, Muslims, ethnic Muslims, they were treated in 1992.
1 They were admitted from April until September and discharged as they
2 would be cured throughout 1992, except for those seven children who
3 stayed behind and in 1993 we took them to Igalo. Certainly the war in
4 Bosnia and Herzegovina and the war operations did have an effect in terms
5 of where patients would decide where they thought that they could find
6 the best medical treatment for them. So if you're just looking at the
7 ethnic background and how sharp the decline was per month, well certainly
8 people wouldn't want to go to hospital where they could get in trouble if
9 it's, say, Serb-controlled territory. So I don't know about those
10 patients and what the truth is.
11 MR. ZEC: Your Honours, I would offer these charts into evidence
12 so you can look at them and compare against the original log-books.
13 JUDGE KWON: Just a second --
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm opposed to that.
15 JUDGE KWON: Did you want to say something, Dr. Maric?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, we have documents
17 that were photocopied. That's the only thing I can see. As for these
18 tables, I accept them just because I'm sitting here but I cannot accept
19 them as documents.
20 JUDGE KWON: I take it this is a summary analysis from the
21 original document. You can use it as your supplementary material when
22 you make your submissions instead of tendering it as a separate exhibit.
23 MR. ZEC: That's fair. I can --
24 JUDGE KWON: I will -- just -- I haven't heard from the Defence.
25 Yes, Mr. Robinson.
1 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, that's my position also. It's a tool for
2 argument, not a matter for evidence.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
5 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry, Mr. President, but I was involved in an
6 earlier exchange where -- and Mr. Zec has been very polite about not
7 referencing this, we tried to seek an agreement or an understanding or
8 stipulation from the Defence about the original logs and the ethnicity of
9 the names of the patients who appeared there, which seemed a pretty
10 reasonable request when that's the focus of this submission by the
11 Defence in the first place. But inexplicably they refused, which one
12 could consider to be an effort to have us press up against the time
13 allocations and Mr. Zec tried to deal with it as effectively as he could
14 under the circumstances, but I noted that there was -- there seemed to be
15 some implied criticism of Mr. Zec for trying to take this approach under
16 the circumstances which would have been obviated with a little bit of
17 comity, that is, with agreement from the Defence.
18 JUDGE KWON: For example, in order to admit this one, witness
19 should have confirmed each item which is Serb or not. We didn't go
20 through this document and the Defence is opposing. It's not in
21 agreement, so what's the basis that we can admit it? We can use it as
22 your submission --
23 MR. TIEGER: I understand the Court. I wasn't arguing with the
24 position the Court now feel forced to take, but I was suggesting that I
25 think unreasonably, especially given the basis for which these logs were
1 tendered, that the Defence refused to acknowledge what Mr. Zec was trying
2 to point out and that if we had sufficient time could have been done
3 directly with the witness.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE KWON: While the Chamber has the sympathy with the points
6 raised by Mr. Tieger, but under the circumstances we'll not admit this.
7 Let's proceed.
8 MR. ZEC: Yeah, so, Mr. President, just to make my point, perhaps
9 we can show the last page of the log-book, that is, 1D07239 and you can
10 follow also at the last page of the chart, there's page 39. And there
11 are ten entries here at the chart, and I will ask the witness to go
12 through --
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, let's upload that one, Exhibit D3130. Let's
14 switch to the e-court. I don't think there's an English page.
15 MR. ZEC: There is no English. I don't believe that we have
16 correct log-book in B/C/S. So I have 1D --
17 JUDGE KWON: I think we do. It's page 40 of that exhibit.
18 MR. ZEC: Can we -- so is that page 40?
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, that is the last page, and the
20 exhibit was MFI'd for that reason that we don't have a full translation.
21 MR. ZEC: I understand because we asked the Defence to remove
22 page 40 because it's unrelated, so we need page 39.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As for this page number 40, we
24 tendered it as a separate document and it has been admitted as a separate
25 document and its removal had been requested now.
1 JUDGE KWON: I remember that.
2 MR. ZEC: So now, Mr. President, this page, page 39 in B/C/S,
3 contains entries from item number 2931 to 2940. And you can find it on
4 the last page of the chart.
5 Q. So, Mr. Maric, Dr. Maric, can you read the names and tell us
6 their ethnicity?
7 A. I cannot. I cannot see this well.
8 Q. Can we perhaps if Doctor cannot --
9 A. I can see -- well, I can read this. It's some page from the
10 protocol. It starts with 2.931. I cannot see this first one Brod, Foca,
11 Maglic, then Skipina, probably Pavlovic, Vukovic, then the eye
12 department. The second column are the departments where they were
13 admitted probably, probably the Loktic [phoen] --
14 JUDGE KWON: Please try to read the names on the end and tell us
15 whether they are Serbs or Muslims, if you could.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These are Serbs.
17 MR. ZEC:
18 Q. Thank you, Dr. Maric.
19 MR. ZEC: Mr. President, I can go every page, but we have simply
20 no time and I can conclude at this point.
21 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I, Excellencies, before the
23 break, can I call up page 38 just one page before this?
24 JUDGE KWON: No, no, no. How much do you need for your
25 re-examination, Mr. Karadzic? Is that the only question for you?
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, no, I would need some 10 or
2 15 minutes, but since it's fresh in our minds I would like to show how
3 the Prosecution selectively chooses its pages.
4 JUDGE KWON: Well then please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 38, please, of this same
7 JUDGE KWON: But it's -- we have no problem with the -- you
8 showing the witness but your comment is improper.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's not going to affect the
10 witness. Please. This has to do with facts and facts are obstinate.
11 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Dr. Maric, are all these people Serbs? And who
13 is not a Serb, could you please give us the name of that person. This is
14 the 21st of May, 1992.
15 A. [Microphone not activated]
16 Q. I think you haven't got your microphone on.
17 A. Number 2927, that's a Muslim, a Muslim woman,
18 Mejra Murat [phoen].
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we scroll the page down --
20 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Zec.
21 MR. ZEC: Only to note for the record that these two names, these
22 two entries that Doctor just read are not in the chart as of Serb
23 patients and so -- this page 38 contains only eight names out of ten and
24 this is what we asked the Defence on Friday if we could agree on so this
25 wouldn't be an issue at all in court today.
1 JUDGE KWON: I don't follow. Eight names out of ten?
2 MR. ZEC: Correct. Because on page 38 Doctor just read two names
3 as Muslim patients.
4 JUDGE KWON: But how -- where do you have eight in your chart?
5 Ah, yes, in -- it's last page.
6 MR. ZEC: I'm sorry, correct. Last page and you should follow
7 this row 38. That's the page, 38, that we are just looking at. And
8 Doctor read two names, two entries, 2927, 2929, as Muslim names and they
9 are not in this chart.
10 JUDGE KWON: Without your explanation, it's very difficult to
11 follow. Now I see the point.
12 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Dr. Maric, to the best of your knowledge, on the 21st of May was
15 a Muslim returned and were these -- when these two Muslims were admitted?
16 A. No. I repeat yet again, throughout 1992 Muslims were treated,
17 patients of Muslim ethnicity were treated in the hospital in Foca and
18 were then discharged. They were admitted until September. I do not see
19 the records now for after September that year.
20 Q. Thank you. Doctor.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If it's time for the break then I'm
22 going to continue with the rest after the break or should I continue now?
23 JUDGE KWON: We'll have a break for 45 minutes. Before that --
24 yes, Mr. Robinson.
25 MR. ROBINSON: Yes. Sorry, Mr. President, I neglected to
1 introduce our intern, Alice Yang, from Taiwan who's been with us during
2 this session.
3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. We'll resume at 1.25.
4 [The witness stands down]
5 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.41 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 1.26 p.m.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
8 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. I'd like to introduce
9 Pauline Wilson of Australia who is a legal intern with our team and will
10 be joining us during this session.
11 [The witness takes the stand]
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Could we please have, for example, in this -- the first page in
15 this document.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Could I please ask you to read out the names of the Muslims of
18 the ten persons listed here, or you can say the numbers as well.
19 A. 2561, 2562, 2566, 2567, 2569, and 2570.
20 Q. Thank you. Can we please see the following page --
21 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Could you read out the name of --
22 under number 2561.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Gogic, Ivanka.
24 JUDGE KWON: Is he Serb or Muslim?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judging by the last name, yes, but
1 judging by the first name, no.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Zec.
3 MR. ZEC: If any of the assistance, in the translation page 1
4 it's Jovanka Gogic.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Why did you say for Gogic, are the Gogic's Muslims?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please see the next page.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Could I ask you once again just to read out the numbers, please.
13 A. 2551, 2552, 2553, 2554, 2556, and 2560.
14 Q. Thank you. I won't go further into this.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But just a second, could we also
16 please have just one more page, please, the next one. If that was number
17 60 then it has to be more than that. Just a second, 60 -- it should
18 begin with 2571. Yes, that's the one.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Can you also read out the names --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The numbers.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. -- again where the patients are ethnic Muslims and what these
24 dates are. The 4th of July, that's up until when you kept the last one
25 at hospital; correct?
1 A. Yes, the 4th of July, 80 -- no, these are the days, not the year,
2 1997 but 87 days.
3 Q. Can you please read out the numbers which referred to, I think,
4 Muslim patients.
5 A. 2572, 2573, 2574, 2575, 2576, 2577, 2578.
6 Q. Thank you. So, Dr. Maric, once again I wish to ask you the
7 following: Did you ever, you or someone from your service, send back an
8 ethnic Muslim or made any sort of difference in terms of treatment?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have the statement.
12 And if you can please help me, this statement of this little
13 Kemal which was quoted. I would like to have that in e-court, please.
14 MR. ZEC: It is 65 ter 24774.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I thank Mr. Zec. Can we please see
16 that in e-court and I would need the last page, please. The one-but-last
17 then, please, the penultimate page.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. As we only have this in English, I will now read this out to you.
20 It says in third line from above:
21 [In English] "I heard that she was later taken to a place where
22 many women were raped ..."
23 [Interpretation] And then it goes on. And this has to do with
24 the hospital:
25 [In English] "At the hospital, we were generally treated well.
1 But there was one female doctor who used to beat up children. I do not
2 recall her name. She was elderly, very thin, had black hair and wore
4 [Interpretation] And generally speaking, how does this correspond
5 with your impressions that they were generally treated well, and was
6 there a thin doctor wearing glasses who was beating children?
7 A. No, no.
8 Q. Could it have been somebody else who was a staff member?
9 A. No.
10 Q. What did the patients get as food?
11 A. In the beginning from the 8th of April, as at least 500 civilians
12 had entered the hospital complex, the patients and the staff, we all
13 shared whatever we had in our supplies at the hospital depot. And
14 whatever was served to the patients was also the food provided to any
15 staff who were in the hospital and the situation was like that for the
16 first ten days.
17 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us this, on page 59 you were asked today
18 and it was suggested to you that examinations were carried out by group.
19 Can you tell me if there is some doctor's activity at a hospital where
20 something is done with a group of patients, usually in the morning?
21 A. Well, not in a group, but these are visits, the rounds, where we
22 as the doctors do the rounds of the hospital and see all individual
23 patients. Then we analyse the information and this is the only thing I
24 know about that is done as a group.
25 Q. What was described to you as a group examination, how would you
1 fit that in the practice of the hospital?
2 A. Well, I couldn't fit it in. Perhaps these were some
3 psychological tests, if some psychologists did some tests jointly and
4 then you would have a group of people who are given one and the same task
5 and they are trying to do it. Apart from that, I could not imagine a
6 doctor examining a number of people at the same time. In view of our
7 obligation with regard to the protection and protecting the intimacy of
8 the patients, they cannot be allowed to look at one another.
9 Q. Can you please describe to the Trial Chamber how does the morning
10 round look, where are the patients and where is the medical staff and the
11 doctor's team?
12 A. The chief of service leads the team of his doctors together with
13 the nurses who are in charge of these patients. The patients are in the
14 rooms in their beds waiting for the rounds, and the round lasts depending
15 on the specific problems that have to be dealt with and the illnesses in
17 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell us whether all the Muslims the
18 medical staff orderlies and doctors were arrested and taken to the
19 KP Dom?
20 A. No. Rather, all of us together as there were few of us, both of
21 us, the Serbs and the Muslims, the gynaecologist, were my assistant as I
22 am a general surgeon and worked in all departments and sections and
23 admitted the injured and the ill people because our capacities were
24 small. Today, the university hospital had 100 specialist doctors and
25 then there were barely 20 of us.
1 Q. Thank you. What would then be the basis for several people who
2 are mentioned here, Ibrahim Karovic, and, I don't know, a few others to
3 be taken into custody? Was it on account of their religion, profession,
4 or was it a third factor?
5 A. Probably, though I don't know and I cannot accept that it could
6 have been profession because we were -- perhaps something that's equal to
7 all people, perhaps something third, if there was something. If there
8 wasn't, well, they would know.
9 Q. Thank you. On page 57, or rather, 51 in line 10 of today's
10 transcript, you were asked something and then the following question was
11 whether you remembered and you said "no, no, no." Let me read that out
12 to you. What does that refer to, this "no, no, no"? We have to clarify
13 this. I apologise. Page 51, here it is, line 10. From line 7 the
14 question is:
15 [In English] If these particular persons were present, do you
16 recall, for example, Colonel Marko Kovac being there, commander of the
17 tactical group Foca?"
18 Your answer is:
19 "No, no, no, no."
20 [Interpretation] Did you answer that Kovac was not present or was
21 it an answer to this part of the question asking you whether you
23 A. I don't remember and this is why I said that. And I answered to
24 that effect, no, no, because 20 years later I do not remember whether I
25 met someone at a specific place or said something at a specific place.
1 Q. Thank you. Some parts of the political discussion in the
2 parliament were also quoted to you and specifically the words of
3 Mr. Petko Cancar. I wanted to ask you something about the Mujezins. Was
4 there some disagreement about the loud tone used in loud-speakers when
5 they would play this and did this bother one or the other group?
6 A. At the beginning of the war, perhaps on the first two or three
7 days, Radio Foca was abused and Semso Tucakovic, who was the director,
8 abused it, and he informed us as the citizens that around 5- to 6.000
9 armed men were entering the town and threatening in particular the Muslim
10 population, which caused panic among the people. It was easiest to find
11 refuge with us at the hospital because we provided shelter to everyone
12 and so many people - I don't know the exact number - but about 500 people
13 or perhaps up to 800 people came to the hospital and stayed within the
14 hospital complex at the beginning of the war, that is to say in early
16 Q. Thank you. On page 50 someone was quoted as saying what sort of
17 messages were arriving from Foca and that it was supposed to be turned
18 into another Mecca. Can you tell us whether you know what this was based
19 on, what the deputy said about the messages from Foca? Had there been
20 anything from the beginning of the multi-party system which could have
21 been interpreted as a message coming from Foca?
22 A. There was a big rally in Foca during the election campaign, so
23 probably the great numbers of people who attended and who arrived in Foca
24 from all around was a sign based on which someone could have drawn such a
25 conclusion. In the archives of Foca town there are documents about the
1 building of one of the centres which was supposed to be high educational
2 institution that would be devoted only to one ethnic group.
3 Q. Thank you. I know you said that you didn't study political
4 issues, but as you were a deputy were you aware that there were ongoing
5 negotiations about establishing two municipalities within Foca?
6 A. Well, we have two municipalities and that idea --
7 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Before you continue.
8 Yes, Mr. Zec.
9 MR. ZEC: This goes beyond cross-examination.
10 JUDGE KWON: Correct.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no. I'm laying the groundwork
12 for my question and the question is in reference to what Mr. Zec said,
13 that there is not a single Muslim left in Foca. You should have a little
14 faith in me. I'm not so inexperienced anymore. It's been three years.
15 In fact, I've been sitting in the courtroom for a year.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. You were told here that somebody had said there were no more
18 Muslims in Foca. Is it the case there were no Muslims in Foca and did
19 the Serbs control all of Foca?
20 A. There is Foca Ustikolina and Foca proper, that's the Foca as it
21 was before the war. Foca Ustikolina is populated by Muslims and the
22 Serbs live in Foca, and that works well. We divided right at the
23 beginning. So if you look at the entire municipality that Foca covered,
24 had the same numbers of people as on that day.
25 Q. In the Serbian Foca are there any Muslims? Were there any during
1 the war?
2 A. Well, I said judging by my patients there were Muslims and
3 judging by the number of patients there should be the corresponding
4 number of families, at least the patients from Foca had families in
6 Q. The witness said that there are Muslims to date in the Serbian
7 part of Foca.
8 Did you say that there are Muslims in Foca?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you very much, Dr. Maric, for coming to testify. Just one
11 more question. You said that I supported you. Did anyone from the
12 authorities reproach you for your unbiased treatment of Muslim civilians
13 and Muslim injured and wounded?
14 A. As a physician and later as the director of the hospital, I had
15 an exceptionally good co-operation with the local authorities. I want to
16 say it was not just lip service. In 1992 we were already preparing
17 premises and apartments and we were finishing building for the university
18 to start in Foca. And it is thanks to that and all our efforts despite
19 the war that Foca today has over 2.000 students. As for the authorities,
20 they never pressured me. As head of the hospital I had a
21 misunderstanding with them at a point in time when the town did not have
22 its own morgue and the army did not have a morgue, and they were using
23 hospital premises. And when there were battles with big loss of life,
24 such as the battle at Josanica, there were many dead, and the military
25 authorities had no understanding for our limitation of our capacities.
1 You have to receive the bodies, make all the records, et cetera, and they
2 couldn't understand why we couldn't do it fast enough, meeting all their
3 demands and requirements. That's what I have against the military
5 Q. What about the civilian authorities, myself and the minister of
6 health, how did they view the fact that you did not distinguish between
7 the Serb wounded and the Muslim wounded?
8 A. With approval --
9 MR. ZEC: I wonder, Mr. President, whether we still again go
10 beyond cross-examination.
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I agree, Mr. Zec. Unless you have further
12 questions, please conclude. You almost said thank you to the Doctor.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I do, Your Excellency. This
14 featured also in cross-examination. There was the question of names and
15 lists. I want to see where he ended up after treatment.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Can I ask you, what did the Serbs do with the captured Muslim
18 wounded? Where did they bring them?
19 A. They brought them to our hospital for treatment. They brought
20 them to us. I said in my previous answers that all the prisoners,
21 captives, if they needed to be treated, were treated at the hospital and
22 kept there as long as they needed.
23 Q. And after treatment, where does such a patient go?
24 A. He would be discharged to the hospital or back to whoever brought
1 Q. So a captive would be treated and then discharged and returned.
2 Thank you, Dr. Maric. I have no further questions.
3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Dr. Maric. That concludes your evidence.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 JUDGE KWON: On behalf of this Chamber, I would like to thank you
6 for your coming to The Hague to give it. Now you are free to go.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
8 [The witness withdrew]
9 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger, while we are waiting for the next
10 witness, I would like to receive your expedited response as well with
11 respect to the accused's motion for disclosure of records pertaining to
12 Milan Babic by close of Wednesday.
13 MR. TIEGER: Very well, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
15 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, with respect to the appeal by
16 Milan Martic, we also would be making submissions. We didn't receive
17 anything until this morning also, so I assume it's okay for us to make
18 those by the close of business tomorrow.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 JUDGE KWON: Would the witness make the solemn declaration,
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
24 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
25 WITNESS: CVIJETIN SIMIC
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Simic. Please be seated. Make
3 yourself comfortable, please.
4 Do you hear me in the language you understand, Mr. Simic?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 JUDGE KWON: Before you commence your evidence, Mr. Simic, I must
7 draw your attention to a certain rule of procedure and evidence that we
8 have here at the international Tribunal, that is, Rule 90(E). Under this
9 rule, you may object to answering any question from Mr. Karadzic, the
10 Prosecution, or even from the Judges if you believe that your answer
11 might incriminate you. In this context, "incriminate" means saying
12 something that might amount to an admission of guilt for a criminal
13 offence or saying something that might provide evidence you might have
14 committed a criminal offence. However, should you think that an answer
15 might incriminate you, and as a consequence you refuse to answer the
16 question, I must let you know that the Tribunal has the power to compel
17 you to answer the question. But in that situation, the Tribunal would
18 ensure that your testimony compelled under such circumstances would not
19 be used in any case that might be laid against you for any offence except
20 and save the offence of giving false testimony. Do you understand what I
21 have just told you?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
24 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
2 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Simic.
3 A. Good afternoon.
4 Q. [Microphone not activated]
5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
6 JUDGE KWON: Microphone.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Could we speak at a moderate rate so that they may be recorded,
9 and between my question and your answer let us make a short pause, that
10 is to say wait for the cursor to stop.
11 Did you, Mr. Simic, give a statement to my Defence team?
12 A. Yes, I did.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we call up in e-court 1D7930.
15 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
16 JUDGE KWON: I'm told that due to the upgrading of the e-court
17 system, we are not at the moment able to see the document. But given
18 that the witness has his statement with him, why don't we proceed with
19 the hard copies if the Prosecution is not opposed to it.
20 MR. TIEGER: That should be fine, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, this turbo
23 process works with technology from the previous century. We should do
24 something about it.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Can I ask you to look at your statement and confirm that that is,
2 indeed, the statement you have given us and tell us how you read it.
3 Have you signed it?
4 A. This is the statement I brought with me, yes, I did sign it.
5 Q. Does that statement faithfully reflect what you told the Defence
7 A. Yes, it does.
8 Q. Thank you. If I were to put to you the same questions in the
9 courtroom today as my Defence team has before me, would they be the same?
10 A. Yes, they would. But there is a small mistake. In point 16 of
11 the corrigendum it's not "1992," it's "1991."
12 Q. So point 16 should read "mid-November 1991"?
13 A. That's correct, not 1992.
14 Q. It's now on record. Are there any more corrections?
15 A. Well, ...
16 Q. Does the rest correspond to what you said?
17 A. There is one point that is not quite clear, but it's fine.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tender this statement.
20 JUDGE KWON: Which part is unclear, Mr. Simic?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I need a minute to find it.
22 JUDGE KWON: Please take your time, Mr. Simic.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Item 39, the last paragraph, all
24 were armed and in civilian clothing. The word "and" should not be there.
25 It's suffices to delete the "i."
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Can I ask you, did I understand this correctly. All who were
3 there were in civilians clothing and some of them only were armed, but
4 even those armed wore civilian clothing?
5 A. Yes, because currently you could understand that everybody was
7 Q. The rest is exactly what you said?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tender this statement under
11 92 ter.
12 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, there's also one associated
13 exhibit which is 1D15014 that was not on our 65 ter list, as we had not
14 interviewed this witness at the time that this was filed so we would ask
15 that that be added and admitted.
16 JUDGE KWON: Any objection, Mr. Tieger?
17 MR. TIEGER: I've already identified my objections to
18 paragraph 36 which I understood was going to be redacted.
19 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, paragraph 36 --
20 JUDGE KWON: I don't think I heard that in a serious sense.
21 What's the line of your objection, Mr. Tieger?
22 MR. TIEGER: Mr. President, if I can note the Trial Chamber asked
23 us earlier to provide the Chamber with advance notice
24 of [overlapping speakers]
25 JUDGE KWON: I know there was something but I didn't have --
1 MR. TIEGER: Okay, sorry.
2 JUDGE KWON: -- time to read it. Thank you.
3 MR. TIEGER: The objection was that the entire paragraph is
4 simply in reference to a document which has not been translated and which
5 we did not receive. So it no longer -- in that respect it's no longer
6 apposite. So on that basis alone I made the objection. I might have
7 gone on under other circumstances to note that it appears to be
8 commentary about a document that has -- is not linked to -- in any way to
9 the witness's personal knowledge and about which he could not offer
10 elucidation from his own experience, but instead commented -- analysed
11 the document. So for a number of reasons that would have been subject to
12 redaction, but I understood from the Defence that in light of the
13 translation issue they were prepared to agree with the objection and
14 redact the paragraph.
15 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. Since the document has to be
16 led live in any event, then it's not necessary that the paragraph remain
17 in there and the same information will be -- or can be elicited by
18 Dr. Karadzic live.
19 MR. TIEGER: Yeah, and --
20 JUDGE KWON: But the issue remains whether this witness is an
21 appropriate person to deal with this document and whether this is
22 admissible after having heard the evidence?
23 MR. TIEGER: That's correct. And my e-mail also noted that the
24 length of the document was such that I considered that it would be so
25 handicapped in not being able to grasp the totality of the evidence that
1 was being discussed in part, that I thought it wasn't appropriate to --
2 an appropriate option to simply lead it live given the length. But I
3 know the Chamber often wants to hear it, but I didn't want to acquiesce
4 in that without noting what I had said in the e-mail.
5 JUDGE KWON: Let us see how it evolves, Mr. Tieger.
6 Yes, we'll admit the Rule 92 ter statement as well as the
7 associated exhibit.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Those will be Exhibits D3133 and Exhibit D3134
9 respectively, Your Honours.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will now read a short
11 summary of Mr. Cvijetin Simic's statement and then I will present an
12 exhibit that's already in evidence which is in accord with this
13 associated exhibit and lead some of this live. I will read in English.
14 [In English] Cvijetin Simic was born on 24th of January, 1958, in
15 Bijeljina and currently resides in the village of Velika Obarska. He was
16 the president of the Bijeljina Municipal Assembly.
17 The SDS party was established following the formation of the SDA
18 and the HDZ, when it became clear that organising politically was the
19 only way for the Serbian people in BiH to protect their own interests.
20 The HDZ and the SDA acted exclusively in the interests of the Croat and
21 Muslims respectively and the latter in particular worked to incite
22 interethnic intolerance in Bijeljina.
23 In November 1990, the Bijeljina local authority was formed on the
24 basis of the election results. Although the SDS clearly won these
25 elections, a coalition was formed with the SDA to protect and improve
1 interethnic relations in the municipality. During this period, groups of
2 Muslims were crossing to Croatia to join paramilitary organisations and
3 fight against the JNA units.
4 In September 1991 the JNA mobilised in Bijeljina. The SDA
5 leaders successfully encouraged the Muslim population to ignore call-ups,
6 whereas the Serbian -- Serbs in Bijeljina responded. This explains the
7 interethnic composition of the JNA at this time. Relations between Serbs
8 and Muslims deteriorated significantly in this period. SDA authorities
9 co-ordinated the illegal delivery of weapons from Croatia and the arming
10 of the Muslim population. Illegal, armed groups of Muslims began to form
11 in the municipality.
12 The authorities of Bijeljina Municipal Assembly were against all
13 illegal organisations. When a group of officers from the Bijeljina
14 garrison secretly distributed weapons to civilians they were stopped, the
15 weapons returned, and the instigators punished. When on
16 15th of October, 1991, the Muslim and Croat leadership in BH voted to
17 withdraw from Yugoslavia, the SDS began to form Serbian autonomous
18 districts. The aim of these districts was always to bring normalcy to
19 the lives of the civilians where possible.
20 The political differences between Muslims and Serbs and the
21 extremely deteriorated ethnic relations led to open conflicts between the
22 parties. The Bijeljina Municipal Assembly was committed to and sincere
23 in maintaining peace in the municipality. When, for instance, a Serb
24 threw a bomb on a Muslim cafe, senior Serb officials in
25 Bijeljina Municipal Assembly carried out a thorough investigation of the
1 incident and the perpetrator was imprisoned.
2 In late March 1992, Muslim formations instigated a general
3 blockade of Bijeljina and it was clear these activities had been planned
4 in advance. By the 1st of April, street battles were -- had broken out
5 throughout the town. Mr. Cvijetin Simic was barricaded and threatened
6 and came to the conclusion that these activities were organised by SDA
7 leaders. At a meeting to resolve the conflict that Cvijetin Simic
8 attended, the SDA president refused to disarm the Muslim population and
9 lift the barricades unless UN observers first came to the city.
10 Mr. Cvijetin Simic concluded that the SDA leadership wished to
11 continue the conflict as long as possible in order to accomplish their
12 political and military aims. On April the 2nd, armed Muslims took
13 control of the hospital and civilians were prevented from receiving
14 medical care. The Muslim-controlled state media meanwhile put out false
15 reports and propaganda alleging falsely that Serbs attacked Muslims in
16 Bijeljina; there had been thousands of Muslim fatalities. Throughout
17 this period the Bijeljina municipality assembly operated transparently.
18 There was no need to form parallel institutions of authority, and hence
19 the Crisis Staff did not adopt any decision and Cvijetin Simic was not a
20 member of any Crisis Staff.
21 Mr. Simic and his colleagues in Bijeljina municipality worked
22 always with the aim of normalising life and work for all citizens.
23 Paramilitary organisations were not tolerated. On the other hand, Muslim
24 leaders such as Hasan Tiric organised attacks on the legitimate organs of
25 authority in the municipality.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. I should now like to ask you -- you mentioned Mr. Tiric. Do you
3 have firsthand knowledge of Mr. Tiric and his actions?
4 A. I have --
5 JUDGE KWON: Just a second -- yes, Mr. Tieger.
6 MR. TIEGER: Let's try to keep the record straight. He actually
7 didn't mention Mr. Tiric, that's in the redacted portion of the
8 statement. But ...
9 JUDGE KWON: Now I see the point.
10 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I still don't understand why this
12 would be redacted. This is already in evidence and we have displayed it
14 JUDGE KWON: You agreed to redact it, but here already -- no,
15 could you reformulate your question.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Simic, it was your impression that what happened on the
18 evening of the 1st -- 31st of March was well-organised and synchronised.
19 Could you tell us by whom and who was the most prominent leader of those
20 units that took over the town?
21 A. During those days, as I described in my statement, I passed
22 several of those roadblocks set up by armed Muslim persons. It was quite
23 obvious. We later even asked for a meeting of the National
24 Defence Council in Bijeljina, I mentioned that in my statement, on the
25 1st of April. Out of the Muslim representatives, there was the president
1 of the SDA, the TO staff commander, and I believe one deputy to the
2 Municipal Assembly of Bijeljina, a Muslim. And from those meetings and
3 from the times I passed through the town, I was able to conclude that
4 these roadblocks and this take-over was organised by the SDA, the
5 Party of Democratic Action. At that time I did not know yet who the main
6 organisers were, and that's why I tried with the president of the party,
7 whose name was Zenaid, I believe, to solve these problems.
8 However, a few days later in the Croatian media there appeared
9 reports that were taken over by our media where Mr. Tiric is named as the
10 leader and he was calling upon those who had left, his fighting men, to
11 come back and take Bijeljina back. That was reported by the Croatian
12 media and those reports were reprinted by our own media and all over
14 In 1993 and 1994 and also in 1992 there was an investigation
15 concerning this armed insurgency and these problems in the town. And 60
16 to 70 witness statements were collected during the investigation that I
17 didn't see at the time, but I found out later. And these statements
18 helped shed light on who organised this insurgency in Bijeljina.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see D01608, please, in
20 e-court. There's also a translation. This is a document that's been
22 Q. Please take a look at this first paragraph. Which formation is
23 involved and who is mentioned as being the commander? First of all, let
24 me introduce this document. This is a document of the
25 Ministry of Defence of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna. The date
1 is the 9th of May, 1996, and they are providing information about
2 Crni Labudovi, the Black Swans. What do you know about the Black Swans?
3 A. I don't know much. I know that it was a special unit, I think,
4 in Zivinice in the Federation of BH.
5 Q. Then in the first paragraph --
6 A. I see here that their intention is to take Bijeljina. We did not
7 know then that that is what they were called.
8 Q. I see. So the official date of the establishment of the unit is
9 the 31st of March, 1992. On that day, acting on orders from
10 Vahid Karavelic and the mentioned Captain Swan, Hasan Tiric, the present
11 commander of the Black Swans unit and about 15 members of the
12 Patriotic League found themselves in Bijeljina with the task of forming a
13 special purposes unit, and at that time he allegedly was to oppose the
14 VRS forces in their attempt to take Bijeljina. How does this tally with
15 what you know about the beginning of the conflict in Bijeljina?
16 A. Well --
17 JUDGE KWON: Just before you answer.
18 Yes, Mr. Tieger.
19 MR. TIEGER: Well, everything we've heard from the witness so far
20 is that he wasn't aware of this type of information at the time. He's
21 been candid with us about that, to his credit. Why Dr. Karadzic now
22 chooses to trot out this document and run a kind of history channel
23 educational effort with this witness is beyond me and is not a productive
24 use of his time.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect, the witness
1 said that he didn't know that that is what they were called. I'm
2 interested in what the witness knows, how this fits into his knowledge as
3 to how and who started the conflict in Bijeljina.
4 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Just a second. Since the -- from
5 previous page, lines 24, to page 96, line 20, the witness said some words
6 which seems to be related to this. On that basis we'll allow the witness
7 to answer the question.
8 Yes, Mr. Simic.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this statement that I gave, I
10 presented my view and my knowledge as to what was happening on the ground
11 in town itself. And in view of the attempts to find a solution on the
12 1st and 2nd of April, I said that according to the information that we
13 had and the information that was broadcast in the media afterwards,
14 Hasan Tiric appeared as the leader of this rebellion in Bijeljina as the
15 organiser. But I did not know, as I've said here, that the name of this
16 unit was -- what was it? The Black Swans. I think that as far as what
17 basically happened on the ground is concerned, it corresponds to what is
18 written here. I mean, if I'm saying it corresponds to that, let me add
19 something. On the 31st of -- on the evening of the 31st, these
20 activities related to an armed rebellion started. This sentence is
21 incorrect, oppose the Army of Republika Srpska, attempt to take
22 Bijeljina. The VRS had no intention to take Bijeljina and I don't see
23 why they would do it and from whom they would take it.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. The Army of Republika Srpska, did it exist on the 31st of March?
1 A. No. At that time there were units of the JNA in Bijeljina. The
2 Army of Republika Srpska was established sometime at the end of May,
3 something like that.
4 Q. Thank you. Bearing in mind your experience and this report of
5 the Croatian intelligence service, do you have any doubts as to who it
6 was who started the war and who came first, Arkan or Tiric?
7 A. No --
8 MR. TIEGER: Objection.
9 JUDGE KWON: No. You can ask the witness if he knows but not
10 based upon this document.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Do you confirm, or rather, how does this document fit into your
13 own knowledge about the essence of what happened there? I asked you
14 about that and you confirmed.
15 A. Yes, I've already said that as far as events are concerned, this
16 is correct.
17 Q. Thank you. Do you have any doubt as to who it was that started
18 the war in Bijeljina?
19 MR. TIEGER: I'm going to object again. This is a fact witness
20 and Dr. Karadzic is trying to transform him into somebody from he's
21 seeking not-helpful opinions.
22 JUDGE KWON: Please move on to your next topic, Mr. Karadzic.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further
24 questions at this point in time for Mr. Simic.
25 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
1 Mr. Simic, your evidence in chief in this case has been admitted
2 in writing in lieu of your oral testimony. And now you will be
3 cross-examined by the Prosecutor, Mr. Tieger.
4 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger:
6 Q. Mr. Simic, let me begin with paragraph 12 of your statement,
7 which mentions the October 15th session of the joint Assembly in Bosnia
8 and Herzegovina, which as you indicated adopted the enactment confirming
9 the sovereignty of the republic of BH. And then you said in your
11 "After this the SDS started forming Serbian autonomous districts
12 in response to the activities of the SDA and HDZ in BH."
13 Mr. Simic, did -- were you aware of a large plenary session on
14 the 7th of September, 1991, at which decisions were taken on the next
15 steps regarding regionalisation? As one person put it:
16 "We'll split into Serbian Bosnia, Croat Bosnia,
17 Muslim Bosnia ..."
18 Were you aware of that meeting in early September 1991 about
19 regionalisation? And that's a meeting of the SDS, sir.
20 A. I don't know now. I cannot remember exactly right now. There
21 were meetings, several meetings. I don't know the dates.
22 Q. Mr. --
23 MR. TIEGER: For benefit of the Court and the Defence, those
24 references can be found at P2530, 2544, and 2545.
25 Q. Well, Mr. Simic, you may not recall that particular meeting, but
1 did you miss the fact that in September of 1991 numerous SAOs were
2 declared, that is, a month before what you told the Court in paragraph 12
3 was the trigger for the establishment of those bodies? And I'm referring
4 specifically, for example, to SAO Herzegovina on the
5 12th of September, 1991; the Autonomous Region of Krajina on 16
6 September 1991; SAO north-Eastern Bosnia on 19 September 1991. Those
7 events took place a month before or the month before what you claim to
8 this Trial Chamber was the trigger for their formation.
9 A. I have documents, I don't know which documents the OTP has, but
10 on the 28th of October, 1991, the Assembly of the region of
11 North-East Bosnia was established. I think that it was perhaps on the
12 25th of October that the Municipal Assembly of Bijeljina reached a
13 decision to accede to this agreement on regional organisation. On the
14 basis of that decision of the Municipal Assembly of Bijeljina, I signed
15 this agreement on the establishment of this autonomous region of
16 North-East Bosnia and I think that this was on the 28th of October. As
17 for these other regions, I did not take part in that and I wasn't really
18 in charge of that -- well, now I may try to remember when it happened.
19 But that wouldn't really matter.
20 Q. So your position then, Mr. Simic, is that you're aware of or
21 claim to be aware of the one -- of a regional formation that you were
22 involved with, but accept that there was -- that the formation or
23 establishment of SAOs elsewhere took place prior to that, correct, if
24 that's what the evidence in this court shows?
25 A. Well, you said to me whether my information was correct, my
1 statement, that on the 28th this region of North-East Bosnia was
2 established. If that is correct, I think that the question -- well, I
3 mean, I have documents and I can present them to you that that is when it
4 was established. If you have something saying that it was established
5 before that, let me see it. I don't know.
6 Q. Yeah, we're going to take a look at that, but I'm going to move
7 on for a moment in the interest of time, but we will return to that, the
8 establishment of those municipalities.
9 MR. TIEGER: And, by the way, for benefit of the Court those
10 references can be found at P2536, pages 81 through 82.
11 Q. Mr. Simic, do you -- with respect to the establishment of those
12 formations, you were aware that the purpose of the establishment of SAOs
13 was considered by many members or by certain members of the SDS to
14 destroy a unitary Bosnia and Herzegovina; correct? And that is what
15 Bosnian Serb officials said in official forums at the time?
16 A. I can take part in a discussion on the basis of the documents
17 that we adopted and discussed at the Municipal Assembly of Bijeljina, and
18 it clearly says there what the objective of the organisation is, what the
19 competences are, what the work is in this planned region. I mean, who
20 said what where, I cannot comment on all of that. As I said, in the
21 decision to accede to the agreement on the establishment of the region of
22 North-East Bosnia, all the tasks, all the objectives, are stated there
23 and I believe that you have that document as well. The objective was not
24 to break up Bosnia and Herzegovina in that part, perhaps some
25 decentralisation in some of the work involved; that is not stated in the
1 documents that you referred to.
2 Q. And the documents that I referred to, just to name a couple, are
3 D456 at page 68, referring to the creation of the SAOs and districts; and
4 D456 at page 70. You did speak about the function in the SAOs and I
5 wanted to ask you about a couple of documents in connection with that.
6 MR. TIEGER: If we could call up 65 ter 24793.
7 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, while we're doing that I would
8 like to raise an issue, this is now the second time that this has
9 occurred, and that is that Prosecution has notified us that during this
10 one-hour cross-examination they've given us a list of 51 potential
11 exhibits. And of course you know that that list, pursuant to your order,
12 is only given to us when the cross-examination starts. There's no way
13 that the Prosecution can use 51 documents in an hour, and so this kind of
14 notice puts us at a big disadvantage to be trying to go through 51
15 documents during Mr. Tieger's cross-examination to guess which one he's
16 going to use. And I think that that's not fair. So I would ask that you
17 either order the Prosecution to give us notice 24 hours in advance of the
18 cross-examination or that you require the Prosecutor to be more focused
19 and give us notice of the documents he truly expects to use if they're
20 going to be doing it at this late stage.
21 MR. TIEGER: This did not need to be hashed out here. If
22 Mr. Robinson wanted to address that, we can talk about that. Listed on
23 that notice are documents I intended to simply refer to by way of
24 information that the Court has received, and out of courtesy alert the
25 Defence to it. If that doesn't help, and I can understand that
1 Mr. Robinson may want to parse through that, we can do that in two
2 different ways. But that can be adjusted as needed.
3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Let's proceed.
4 MR. TIEGER: Okay.
5 Q. Mr. Simic, we have on the screen right now is -- should be 24793.
6 A. 23765.
7 Q. This is a document that is dated -- should be dated the
8 13th of April and then also the 21st of April, as you will see. It's a
9 request for an urgent reply and implementation of the decision of the
10 Executive Council of the Semberija and Majevica SAO. And does this
11 accurately reflect, insofar as you are aware, because you did talk about
12 the functioning of the SAOs, how this would work; that is, that the SAO
13 being on the ground and more familiar with local needs, would essentially
14 nominate somebody and then turn to the ministry for actual implementation
15 and authorisation of the decision?
16 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President. I'm actually not able
17 to find this document in e-court. So we'd like to at least have a copy
18 e-mailed to us so we can follow other than just on the screen. There may
19 be other pages of the document that are of interest to us in our
21 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Reid is working on it. I think I indicated the
22 nature of the problem before and how we do our best to surmount it, but
23 it continues to be a continuing problem. I noted that at some point in
24 the earlier examination we temporarily overcame that uploading problem.
25 Currently it persists.
1 JUDGE KWON: I was wondering whether the witness could read it at
3 Do you remember the question? Can you answer the question,
4 Mr. Simic?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can read the document. However,
6 could I just see the date below? I cannot see it now. Could you scroll
7 down a bit. I can answer the question, though.
8 JUDGE KWON: Sometime 21st of April, 1992.
9 MR. TIEGER:
10 Q. And, Mr. Simic, I'm not looking for a description of this
11 particular event but only if the relationship between the SAO government
12 and the ministry as reflected here is consistent with your understanding
13 of how that worked?
14 A. I know what the relations were between the Municipal Assembly of
15 Bijeljina and this community and the appropriate ministries and
16 institutions, and I can explain that. The Municipal Assembly proposed
17 certain people for certain positions, and they asked for the consent of
18 the relevant ministries and the acceptance of this proposal in some way
19 by the ministry. I think that in this part the situation is similar.
20 Now, whether it was that way in the documents as well, I was not an
21 official of the region so I cannot say anything for sure, but I think
22 that the Assembly of the region did meet sometime around the 20th or the
23 21st of April, and probably this reply was sought on the basis of the
24 decision of the regional Assembly. And I believe that you also have that
25 in the materials.
1 Q. Thank you, sir.
2 MR. TIEGER: I tender this document and turn to one more; that's
3 65 ter 24790.
4 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, we object. We've never seen
5 this document and it's very difficult to read. We're looking at one
6 page. I don't see how it could be admitted without having been disclosed
7 to us, but perhaps tomorrow we could look at it and let you know. I
8 think it would be better, actually, since we only have a few minutes left
9 to not proceed with any more documents today. I don't think it's fair to
10 make us look at documents at the same time as the witness that have never
11 been disclosed to us.
12 MR. TIEGER: Well, that is very interesting in light of the
13 constant submission of documents of large length led live over our
14 objection about the concern. So this is a one-page document that they
15 can't cope with. I have no objection to continuing, but that should tell
16 us something about the nature of the process they've been pursuing.
17 JUDGE KWON: We'll receive this.
18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6207, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE KWON: And it's -- the logic also applies to the other
20 direction. It's only five minutes. Let's continue.
21 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President. I called up 65 ter 24790.
22 That's an even smaller document.
23 Q. Mr. Simic, this is a conclusion of the Serbian autonomous
24 district of Semberija and Majevica following its meeting of the
25 22nd of May, 1992, and it refers to the decision of the Serbian Republic
1 of BH on general mobilisation and concludes that it shall be implemented
2 and directs that the district secretary for defence and the municipal
3 secretary for defence shall be tasked with implementing that decision.
4 So this is a reflection of that same relationship in the other direction;
5 right, Mr. Simic? In the previous document we saw, the SAO turning to
6 the ministry for implementation of some selections it had made, and here
7 we see the SAO implementing the decisions of the Serbian republic;
9 A. A decision cannot be carried out by way of a conclusion. This
10 has to do with mobilisation, if I can read it, and this was done by
11 municipal secretariats of national defence. Now, I don't know how the
12 region could be carrying out mobilisation. What is written here is the
13 municipal secretariat of national defence. They were the ones in charge
14 of that, not the region. So that would be the conclusion.
15 Q. Are you looking at the document, Mr. Simic? It says -- it's not
16 so unclear. There's a decision -- let's take it step by step. The
17 Serbian republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina made -- that is, the republic
18 level made a decision on general mobilisation. The SAO indicates that it
19 shall be implemented and then turns to the municipal secretariats for
20 that purpose; correct?
21 A. Over here they're asking for the decision to be implemented. At
22 the same time they charge the secretariats for national defence to carry
23 the decision out. Now, I don't know the exact competences, who issues an
24 order for mobilisation. I think it's military units, the military. I
25 don't know to what extent the civilian authorities are in charge of that.
1 Q. Okay. Thank you.
2 MR. TIEGER: I tender that, Mr. President, and it looks like
3 we're out of time.
4 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, I'll object because I don't believe the
5 witness has been able to comment on or confirm anything about the
7 MR. TIEGER: They're asking for the decision to be implemented at
8 the same time they charge the secretariats for national defence to carry
9 the decision out. What could be more clear?
10 MR. ROBINSON: Anybody can read a document, but if the witness
11 confirms something in the document, then that should be the basis for
13 MR. TIEGER: If he's not confirming it, then I'm impeaching him.
14 He's the one who raised the functioning of the SAOs in his statement,
15 Mr. President, so one way or another it should go in.
16 JUDGE KWON: The rest of the day will calm down at bit further.
17 We'll resume tomorrow at 9.00. The hearing is adjourned.
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.46 p.m.,
19 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 20th day of
20 March, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.