1 Wednesday, 27 March 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone. Would the witness make the
7 solemn declaration, please.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
9 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Djukanovic. Please be seated and
11 make yourself comfortable.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 WITNESS: RODOLJUB DJUKANOVIC
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 JUDGE KWON: Before you commence your evidence, Mr. Djukanovic, I
16 must draw your attention to a certain Rule that we have here at the
17 International Tribunal, that is, Rule 90(E) of Rules of Procedure and
18 Evidence. Under this Rule you may object to answering any question from
19 Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecution, or even from the Judges if you believe
20 that your answer might incriminate you in a criminal offence. In this
21 context, "incriminate" means saying something that might amount to an
22 admission of your guilt in a criminal offence or saying something that
23 might provide evidence that you might have committed a criminal offence.
24 However, should you think that an answer might incriminate you and as a
25 consequence you refuse to answer the question, I must let you know that
1 the Tribunal has the power to compel you to answer the question, but in
2 that situation, the Tribunal would ensure that your testimony compelled
3 under such circumstances would not be used in any case that might be laid
4 against you for any offence save and except the offence of giving false
6 Do you understand what I have just told you, Mr. Djukanovic?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand.
8 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Good morning, Your
10 Excellencies. Good morning to everybody.
11 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
12 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Djukanovic.
13 A. Good morning, Mr. President.
14 Q. I would kindly ask you to speak slowly when you answer my
15 questions and also to make a little pause after my question before you
16 start providing your answers. This will allow the interpreters to
17 interpret correctly.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you provide a statement to my Defence team?
20 A. Yes, I did provide a statement to your Defence team.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D7971.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Look at the screen. Do you see a statement on the screen?
25 A. Yes, I do. That is my statement.
1 Q. Did you read the statement and did you sign it?
2 A. Yes, I read it fully and I signed it.
3 Q. Thank you. Can we go to the last page. Is this your signature?
4 A. Yes. This is my signature, and I accept this statement as my
6 Q. Thank you. Does this statement faithfully reflect what you said
7 to my Defence team?
8 A. I personally simplified something. I referred to all of the
9 people there as volunteers, but this is not a good term. I believe that
10 this is a mistake that I made. All the volunteers who came and put
11 themselves under the command of the JNA were good fighters, and they
12 fought with us. I'm saying this to make sure that these people are
13 separated from paramilitaries. And "paramilitaries" is the term that I
14 should have used for some of the formations that arrived in Bratunac at
15 that time.
16 Q. Could you apply that correction to a particular paragraph or is
17 that something that applies across the board and you will explain it
18 during your live testimony?
19 A. Wherever I used the term "volunteer," if it is in a negative
20 context I would like to correct it. I can't see exactly where I used
21 that term. I believe that there are 64 paragraphs here. That will take
22 a lot of time to correct. However, whenever I use the term "volunteers,"
23 I would like to change it and correct it if I may insist on that.
24 Q. In addition to that, is there anything else in the statement
25 would you -- that you would like to correct or is everything as you
2 A. Everything is there that I stated. I stated this as well. I
3 used the term "volunteers." In the meantime I had another thought and I
4 decided to correct that. The person who took my statement made a very
5 clear record of what I said.
6 Q. If I were to put the same questions to you today, would your
7 answers be the same in essence?
8 A. Yes, they would be absolutely the same. Only if either you or
9 the Trial Chamber or somebody else asked me to clarify things, then I
10 could probably expand on the statement which is just a short summary of
11 the events. I'm sure that I would have more to save -- say on the events
12 if need be.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this
15 statement pursuant to Rule 92 ter.
16 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. We also have one associated
17 exhibit, and we would ask that it be added to our 65 ter list as it was a
18 late addition to the witness's statement.
19 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, Ms. Edgerton. Do you have any
21 MS. EDGERTON: I was actually having a look at that document,
22 thinking that there's insufficient foundation for the admission of that
23 document as an associated exhibit, and perhaps Dr. Karadzic could address
24 the circumstances within which the witness saw the document in the
25 witness's testimony.
1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, do you have any difficulty with that?
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. Save for the fact that we are
3 wasting time, there is nothing else.
4 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber is of the view that paragraph 5 of this
7 statement is irrelevant or unnecessary, so it can be redacted.
8 With that redaction, we'll admit the Rule 92 ter statement.
9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D3194, Your Honours.
10 JUDGE KWON: Please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.
11 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, just to be clear, do you want that
12 document led live?
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'm now going to read
15 a --
16 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. The Chamber has no difficulty if
17 Mr. Karadzic addresses the issue raised by Ms. Edgerton, and then after
18 we admit it. So we'll admit the associated exhibit as well. Shall we
19 give the number for that.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. 1D7024 will be Exhibit D3195.
21 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, would you mind if we left that to
22 Ms. Edgerton to address if she thinks it's important?
23 JUDGE KWON: I would like Mr. Karadzic to deal with it.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. With all due respect to
25 your decision with regard to paragraph 5, I thought that it would be good
1 to know where all -- when all the tension started. They didn't start
2 with the emergence of the SDS. I respect your decision, however, and in
3 that I think that we are losing one important part of a whole.
4 Now I'm going to read Mr. Djukanovic's summary statement in
6 [In English] Rodoljub Djukanovic was born on 19th of July, 1952,
7 in Kravica, Bratunac. He was a member of the Crisis Staff of Bratunac
8 municipality in 1992, and president of the Bratunac Executive Committee.
9 After the multi-party elections, a multi-party municipal government was
10 formed in Bratunac. Nijaz Dubicic was elected president of the
11 Municipal Assembly.
12 At the end of August 1991, a crowd of Muslims attacked a military
13 police unit which was saved by the police who intervened. The military
14 policemen were forced to fire shots in the air to disperse the crowd.
15 All sorts of swear words and insults were hurled in the army -- at the
16 army and the Serbs. The following day, the Muslims around Bratunac
17 continued to yell and provoke the Serbs. At the entrance of the
18 Hotel Fontana, the Muslims physically attacked a man only because he was
19 a Serb and from Kravica.
20 At around April 1992, Rodoljub Djukanovic attended a meeting in
21 Bratunac. On the return from the meeting, Nijaz told him that he wanted
22 to take out of Bratunac all Muslims wishing to go to Tuzla and asking to
23 secure escort for them so that they would not be mistreated at police
24 check-points. Police patrols were provided.
25 On 2nd of May, 1992, in Hranca, Muslims attacked a JNA military
1 column that was withdrawing from Croatia through Central Bosnia.
2 Rodoljub Djukanovic heard some people were killed and wounded. The next
3 day he learned that some people had been brought from Hranca and placed
4 in the hangar of the Vuk Karadzic Elementary School in Bratunac. He was
5 not much involved in it. Later, he was informed that some bodies were
6 found near the River Drina and some people were believed to be killed in
7 the hangar.
8 On May 8, 1992, Goran Zekic, chairman of the Srebrenica SDS
9 Municipal Board and esteemed judge, was killed in a Muslim ambush just
10 outside Srebrenica. This caused panic among the Serbs there. Then
11 Miroslav Deronjic informed them that they should only disarm the Muslims
12 in Glogova in order to ensure the safety of the Bratunac. He emphasised
13 that the Crisis Staff had decided to disarm Glogova but not to kill any
15 After the incident in Glogova, he learned that some Muslims from
16 Suha and Seliste were being brought to the football stadium, which was
17 guarded by armed volunteers in Bratunac. He went to the police station
18 and asked about the situation. The chief of the SJB, Milutin Milosevic,
19 told him that he did not know what was happening in the stadium because
20 he received an order not to interfere with the work of the army/military
22 Because the volunteers were causing them problems in Bratunac,
23 paramilitaries were causing them problems in Bratunac, after some
24 discussions in a meeting the Crisis Staff decided to throw them out of
1 Later, he learned that the Muslims at the stadium that day had
2 been transferred to the hangar of the primary school. Then he was
3 informed that killings were taken place and dead bodies were found there.
4 Right after this, the Crisis Staff decided that the people in the hangar
5 must be saved and moved to Pale.
6 In the second half of May 1992, the Serbian villages of Mratinci
7 and Lipenovici were attacked, some civilians were killed and wounded,
8 houses and property were destroyed.
9 On 29th of May, 1992, in Sandici, the Muslim armed forces
10 ambushed a group of officers from Bratunac Territorial Defence and
11 Milutin Milosevic who were on their way to Milici. The chief of the
12 police was seized.
13 The Muslims then began to launch selective attacks on all Serbian
14 villages in Bratunac and Srebrenica. It was mostly civilians that were
15 killed in these villages. The most vicious massacres carried out by the
16 Muslims were the ones that took place in Bjelovac and Sikiric on
17 14th of December, 1992, and in Kravica on the 7th of January, 1993, which
18 was Christian Orthodox Christmas.
19 At the municipal government they never received any orders from
20 President Karadzic regarding the undertaking of any actions. They
21 received one order in March 1993 when President Karadzic personally
22 ordered that a humanitarian convoy carrying food for Srebrenica must be
23 let through.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Djukanovic, in paragraph 54 you mention a document which was
1 shown to you. Unfortunately, paragraph 5 has been omitted. It speaks
2 about the long history of tensions between the ethnic groups in Bratunac.
3 Can you tell us what you knew about the arming and preparations for the
4 war of the Muslim ethnic community in Bratunac?
5 A. Since I was the president of the Executive Board, sometimes I
6 found reports from the SDB on my desk. We could learn from those reports
7 that the Muslims were being guard [as interpreted] from Sandzak and from
8 Sarajevo, and that those incidents were not sporadic. This was a
9 large-scale exercise. This caused concern among us Serbs. It caused
10 fear among the people, so the Serbs started arming themselves. They
11 started buying weapons. It says here in this paragraph that we received
12 an official note from the Tuzla DB. There is a list of persons there who
13 are under threat, who could be killed. Moreover, it says in that note
14 who were the highest profile individuals. At that moment, all that was
15 very bad, because one could lose their life as a result of that. Since I
16 occupied a position that was given to the Serbs, I was also on that list
17 for liquidation. It soon proved to be true, because an unknown
18 perpetrator opened fire on me. He shot at me. His name was Dautovic.
19 So he was not unknown. He shot at me without any reason at all.
20 Q. Please can you slow down.
21 A. I apologise. I may have been speaking too fast.
22 That person Dautovic shot at me near the bus-stop. He didn't
23 have a reason to do that. I didn't know him. He was an 18-year-old lad.
24 Luckily enough, he missed me, and I'm still here to tell the tale.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D7024.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. While we're waiting for the document to be displayed, could you
3 please tell us who is in charge of the CSB in Tuzla in September 1991?
4 Which ethnic group was a majority there?
5 A. There was a Muslim majority there, and I believe that the chief
6 of the CSB was a person called Saric, also Muslim. I believe that he
7 hailed from Kladanj. I believe that this is a very realistic picture of
8 the situation as it was in Bratunac at the time.
9 There are some situations that I did not agree with. It says
10 here that some person I personally know, Jovan Nikolic, myself,
11 Goran Zekic, Miroslav Deronjic and I distributed people -- distributed
12 weapons to people. I guarantee you that I never gave any weapons to
13 anybody. I was not involved in the distribution of weapons. I suppose
14 that this is just rumours that came from all sorts of people. This is
15 the only thing that I don't agree with. Everything else is more or less
16 a true reflection of the real situation as it was in Bratunac at the
17 time, the state of chaos that reigned supreme and the foreboding of what
18 would happen after that.
19 Q. Thank you. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what were the forms of
20 legal and illegal arming of the Serbs in Bratunac?
21 A. The legal forms of arming could be seen at the end of 1991.
22 Alija Delimustafic, who was the minister of the interior, and he issued
23 an order to mobilise the reserve force of the police. This is what you
24 call it in the police jargon. The ethnic composition reflected the
25 ethnic composition of the population in Bratunac. There were 64 per cent
1 of Muslims, 34 of Serbs, and the rest were others. I believe that there
2 were some Roma and several Croats, and that's how the weapons were
3 distributed. I believe that several hundred police officers were
4 mobilised from the reserve force. Muslims received 64 per cent of the
5 total number of rifles and other weapons, and I apologise, there is
6 something that I forgot. There was also the theft of a cannon. I did
7 not see that at first. My eyesight is not that good. And this raised
8 alarm among people in Bratunac and Srebrenica. First of all, we didn't
9 understand how come a company could have a cannon.
10 Perhaps this is what you're asking me what were legal and what
11 were illegal forms of arming, because the Territorial Defence also
12 distributed some of the arms across the companies in the area and they
13 also gave some trustworthy people some weapons and so on and so forth.
14 However, Feros is a company that was given the cannon from the
15 Territorial Defence to look after it, and during the night that
16 anti-aircraft cannon was stolen which raised concern among the Serb
17 population. The first question was why did they need a cannon, and then
18 when it was stolen, nobody knew how it would be used. That's why we were
19 all afraid.
20 Q. Thank you. Can we please now look at the last page of this
21 document. What happened in late August and early September 1991, which
22 is being referred to in the last paragraph which says after the incident
23 the Muslims gathered on the 4th September? What happened then?
24 A. That was preceded by the killing of two Muslims in Kravica and,
25 even before that, two Serbs were wounded in Avdagina Njiva at a
1 check-point between Kravica and --
2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak slowly and
3 repeat the names of all the toponyms that he is enumerating.
4 JUDGE KWON: I think you are speaking too fast so that it's
5 impossible for the interpreters to catch up with your speed, in
6 particular when you are referring to names, et cetera. Could you please
7 slow down and put a pause, wait a moment before you start answering the
8 question. Could you repeat the answer, please.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. This relates to the
10 period when, between the villages of Glogova and Kravica, two Serbs from
11 Han Pijesak were wounded, seriously wounded from firearms, and this was
12 followed by the killing of two Muslims in the village of Kravica, more
13 precisely in Kajici village, and after that, the vice-president of
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Nikola Koljevic, and Avdo Hebiba came with him. He
15 was a high-ranking official of the BH MUP. They came to address the
16 crowd of inhabitants who gathered there. People were afraid. There were
17 two groups. One were the Muslims. The other group were Serbs, and in
18 front of the police station a lot of Muslims got together.
19 Mevludin Sinanovic, if I can see it clearly, climbed on a chair, took a
20 knife out and threatened the Serbs by saying that our country was Serbia
21 and that was the only place where we could live. So that would be more
22 or less what happened.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Thank you. This report, regardless of the fact that it was
25 drafted by the Muslim-run centre, does it approximately reflect the
1 situation and tensions and incidents in Bratunac municipality?
2 A. Yes, President. I said this is very close to the truth with the
3 exception of certain minor details that I might object to.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tender this document into
7 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, we admitted this, but what
8 Ms. Edgerton wanted to know is within what context witness did see this
9 document. If you'd take a look at his document -- statement, 54, "I have
10 seen -- I have been shown document, this one, Official Note," and he also
11 said, "which I also received." So in what context did he receive this
13 Did you receive this Official Note at the time, Mr. Djukanovic?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I received this Official Note
15 at the time when I was the president of the Executive Committee in
16 Bratunac. We were informed about this, and I even have a copy of this
17 paper in my briefcase which I left in my hotel room. I didn't bring it
18 with me. Having talked with the people who testified before me, I was
19 told that I can see the statement on the screen and that questions would
20 be asked of me in that way, so I didn't bring the paper with me. As I
21 said, I have it in my possession.
22 JUDGE KWON: So what you are saying is that that's the usual
23 practice for SDB people to send his -- their report to the -- which is
24 strictly confidential, to the members of the Executive Committee. Is
25 that what you're saying, Mr. Djukanovic?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not claiming that, but this
2 particular document reached my desk. I don't know what classified
3 information is and how the secret services act, but in this particular
4 instance, we had this information. Possibly the reason was to make us
5 aware of the threats aimed at me, Mr. Djukanovic, and everybody else
6 listed here, and later on it turned out that they were valid threats. I
7 was shot at, some people were killed, and some people had to flee the
8 area. All I remember is that I found it on my desk, but I don't know how
9 it came to be in my hands, whether through the protocol or maybe somebody
10 just brought it into my office in order to inform me. Anyway, I still
11 have the document to this date.
12 And I clearly remember that these intelligence officers were
13 registered under specific numbers, which I found odd, but nevertheless,
14 even if the information is confidential, it sometimes find its way into
15 the public domain, the books, diaries, anything you can think of.
16 JUDGE KWON: Very well. That concludes your
17 examination-in-chief, Mr. Karadzic?
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellency. Yes,
19 Your Excellency. That's right.
20 JUDGE KWON: Very well. That concludes your evidence in chief in
21 this case, Mr. Djukanovic. Now you'll be cross-examined by the
22 representative of the Office of the Prosecutor.
23 Ms. Edgerton.
24 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honours.
25 Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:
1 Q. Mr. Djukanovic, good morning. Can you hear me in a language you
3 A. Yes. Good morning. I can hear you well.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Would you like to have your
6 statement in front of you, with you now, Mr. Djukanovic?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it could be useful, but if I
8 get the documents in good time in Serbian, if I move closer to the
9 screen, then I can follow.
10 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Ms. Edgerton.
11 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
12 Q. I just want to start off, Mr. Djukanovic, by -- with a small
13 clarification on one of the paragraphs you added to your witness
14 statement after you saw Dr. Karadzic, and that's paragraph 63 where you
15 make reference to the location of Cerovac, Cerovac. Now, it's correct,
16 isn't it, first of all, that the proper spelling of that location in
17 Bratunac municipality is C-e-r-o-v-a-c? It was misspelled in the
18 adjudicated fact you were shown; correct? The name was simply
20 A. Are you asking me? In my statement, it is correctly spelt
21 Cerovac, exactly as you did it.
22 Q. Yes. That's what I was asking you. And just one further
23 clarification. These locations, Cerovac and Polje, are part of the area
24 of Hranca, aren't they?
25 A. Yes. They're very close. They may belong to Hranca. These are
1 two hamlets that are probably part of Hranca. But, listen, this place
2 called Polje, actually, I had never heard of it. Cerovac is part of
3 Hranca, but it is possible that it is next to the road, Polje. Sometimes
4 valleys are referred to as Polje in our language, but I have never heard
5 of that place. There is a place called Zapolje, but I don't know about
6 Polje. And what I stated here is correct.
7 Q. Now, when you describe Cerovac as being a Serbian village, you
8 don't mean to say that there are no Muslims who live there, do you?
9 A. That's not what I said. There was a Serbian Cerovac and a Muslim
10 Cerovac, and it is possibly that a civil war broke out there. I really
11 don't know when that occurred, and I don't have that information. You
12 have to admit that it's been more than 20 years since then, but I know
13 for sure that the Serbian village Cerovac was completely destroyed by
14 fire and that we accepted people from Cerovac in Bratunac. I clearly
15 remember that.
16 As for the Muslim village of Cerovac, and if I look at this date,
17 I really cannot tell you anything more. I don't know.
18 Q. That's fine. Now, just a couple of other clarification
19 questions. Your nickname is Rocko, isn't it?
20 A. Yes, that's correct.
21 Q. Now, in your statement that you gave to Dr. Karadzic's Defence,
22 you mentioned -- you talked about the High Representative's decision in
23 2004. Now, at the time he issued that decision, you were a member of the
24 SDS Main Board; correct?
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. And you were a member of the RS National Assembly; correct?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. And how long had you been serving as a member of the SDS Main
5 A. I was a member of the SDS Main Board -- let me think. The
6 replacements took place in 2004, but I think that I served the whole term
7 of office, I believe. I think that the party elections were in 2002. I
8 don't remember exactly. But all I know is that I was a member for quite
9 a long time.
10 Q. How long is quite a long time? When were you first appointed to
11 a position in the SDS Main Board?
12 A. I was elected at the Assembly of the Serbian Democratic Party I
13 believe in 2002. Paddy Ashdown dismissed us in 2004.
14 Q. So two years at least.
15 A. At least.
16 Q. All right. And so those things aren't in your statement, are
18 A. No. I didn't mention that. I did say, though, that I was
19 sanctioned by the High Representative, allegedly because I was part of
20 the support network of President Karadzic. Now, after these sanctions
21 were removed and eight years later, it turned out to be untrue. Now as
22 far as this is concerned and as far as these allegations are concerned,
23 they proved to be false and I did not participate in any actions relating
24 to the hiding of President Karadzic.
25 Q. Well --
1 A. I -- I never heard or seen President Karadzic since 1996, and I
2 didn't know his whereabouts.
3 Q. Well, since you've -- you felt a need to expand on that, let's
4 have a look at the copy of the High Representative's decision at
5 65 ter number 24810. You don't by any chance read English, do you,
6 Mr. Djukanovic? All right. Then I'll --
7 A. No --
8 Q. -- read to you --
9 A. I'm not literate in English. [In English] From his positions as
10 member of --
11 Q. [Microphone not activated][Overlapping speakers] ... I'll read to
12 you the parts I --
13 A. [Interpretation] I know --
14 Q. This is the actual High Representative's decision removing from
15 your positions on the Main Board and the RS Assembly, and if we could go
16 over to page 3 of this document, at the very bottom of that page, the
17 very last paragraph, it says:
18 As a leading member of the SDS occupying a position of
19 responsibility within the party and based on solid information and
20 belief, Rodoljub Djukanovic is, in whole or in part, culpable for the
21 SDS's failure to purge the political landscape of conditions conducive to
22 the sustenance of individuals indicted under Article 19 of the ICTY
23 statute. Mr. Djukanovic's failings are inimical to stability and the
24 rule of law, and Mr. Djukanovic, therefore, obstructs the process of
25 peace, implementation and must be removed from office forthwith.
1 Now, Mr. Djukanovic, I don't see anything in there about
2 harbouring Dr. Karadzic. You were considered to be violating your
3 country's commitments to the peace agreement. Isn't that correct?
4 A. In this portion that you read it seems to be the case, but you
5 left out of a lot of it. You took it out of the context, because before
6 that, when there is reference to President Karadzic and other indictees
7 accused of war crimes, it seems according to this that we were not
8 exactly co-operative. You understand what I mean, that the -- we were
9 not loyal citizens of our country, that we were not co-operating with
10 The Hague Tribunal, but none of that was true. Nobody asked us to do
11 anything about that. It never happened that somebody called me and I
12 refused to appear. It's all untrue. Therefore, I was not hindering the
13 implementation of the peace process, and I can confirm categorically and
14 by assuming all kinds of responsibilities, criminal and otherwise, that
15 we complied.
16 Q. Now --
17 A. We were --
18 Q. Now --
19 A. -- accused of the indictees of being somewhere and that we were
20 helping them stay where they are. I don't know where he got this
21 information from.
22 Q. And this was repealed in 2011, following the apprehension of
23 General Mladic; correct? That's -- yes or no. Do you know or don't you?
24 A. Yes, after that, but quite some time after that, and I don't see
25 the connection with the apprehension of Mladic. I don't know what --
1 what the relation could be between these events, and I never thought
2 about it.
3 Q. Now, just a little bit more about your function within the SDS.
4 You only added later on to paragraph 27 of your statement that you were a
5 member of the SDS Municipal Board in Bratunac. Now, just to put some
6 dates in place, can you confirm that that was the case actually from way
7 back in August 1990 right through to 1995?
8 A. Yes. I was a member of the Municipal Board throughout that
10 Q. Now, you also talked in your statement about your function as
11 head of the Executive Board, but I wonder --
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. -- if you can confirm that, in fact, following your move to the
14 government of RS in March 1993, you actually, the year after, in
15 August 1994, returned to take up the position of Executive Council
16 president in Bratunac.
17 A. No, no. I never returned to resume this position. After
18 president came to Bratunac to allow the UNPROFOR convoy to pass through
19 Srebrenica, I and other people on the Executive Committee, at the request
20 of the people who were putting together the Government of Republika
21 Srpska, we decided to nominate the best people and the best educated
22 people, and one of those people who was invited to participate was
23 myself. In 1993 when President Karadzic visited Bratunac, my impression
24 really was that this was becoming a core of something that could be a
25 political guarantee of our property and our safety and security. I
1 believe that this would yield good results, and I decided to join them in
2 order to help with my experience and knowledge in creating institutions.
3 I was appointed the main inspector or the assistant minister. I was not
4 a member of the cabinet, but I was given a large department.
5 When I came, there was nobody at the head of that department, but
6 in 1995, after St. Archangel's day, I refused -- I returned home. I did
7 not resign. I only asked to be allowed to rejoin my family.
8 Q. Mr. Djukanovic, I asked you about 1994, and we actually went from
9 1993 right through to 1995, so maybe I can help us stay focused by
10 showing you a document. It's -- it's a page from the minutes of the
11 Assembly sessions from the Bratunac SDS, and it has 65 ter number 00603.
12 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, is this document that's leaving our
13 screen going to be tendered by the Prosecution?
14 MS. EDGERTON: No.
15 MR. ROBINSON: Okay.
16 MS. EDGERTON: And I want in this document to go to page 55 of
17 the English and B/C/S page 46.
18 Q. This is -- I'll wait until we see it.
19 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence for a moment, Your Honours.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see it.
21 MS. EDGERTON: And page -- I don't see a match. Thank you. If
22 we could just go over there.
23 Q. Now, these are minutes from a meeting of the Bratunac SDS
24 Municipal Board from 14 August 1994. Now, first of all, we see in the
25 middle of the page on the English and at the bottom of the page in your
1 language that you were present at that meeting. Your name's at the very
2 bottom of page 46 in your language.
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now --
5 A. Yes, I can see it --
6 Q. Now --
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, if we can just go over to page 47 in your language and flip
9 over to page 56 in English.
10 MS. EDGERTON: And in B/C/S it's on the right-hand side of the
11 page under item 4. Page 47 in B/C/S, and page 56 in English.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that the previous English
13 page was correct, but we lost it.
14 MS. EDGERTON: No, I have the previous English page. Thank you,
15 Dr. Karadzic. I'm trying to make sure that we have the proper B/C/S
16 page, which should be page 47. And I appreciate it's not easy because of
17 the way these B/C/S pages have been entered into evidence.
18 That helps. Thank you.
19 Q. Under item 4 on these pages, we see a decision to unfreeze your
20 status and for you to enter the Municipal Board of Bratunac for the
21 purpose of taking over as the Executive Committee president, which is not
22 what you've just explained to us. So --
23 A. May I?
24 Q. -- did you return to become Executive Council president or not?
25 A. No. I was never re-appointed as president of the Executive
1 Committee. Executive Committee is an executive branch, whereas the
2 Municipal Board is something which is called political authority. The
3 period when I joined the Government of Republika Srpska, for a time I did
4 not attend the meetings or anything, and meetings were anyway scarce
5 because of the lack of communications.
6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't hear Mr. Karadzic's
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Actually, this means that I was
9 reactivated as a member of the Municipal Board, and I was literally
10 obliged to attend the board meetings, and I was virtually warned of being
11 obliged to come and attend the meetings, but I never resumed the position
12 of the president of the Executive Committee in the executive branch of
13 the government in Bratunac. I cannot remember all the details of this,
14 but I remember what was happening, and there was a lot of criticism
15 coming from Serbia on the account of our leadership.
16 Q. Now --
17 A. I don't know what happened later.
18 Q. That's fine. Thank you. Now that you've cleared that up, I want
19 to go to some of your other SDS positions.
20 Is it correct or can you confirm that later in 1994 you were
21 appointed to the position of director of the distribution centre?
22 October 1994.
23 A. Distribution centre? Distribution of what? Oh, yes, the
24 distribution centre in Bratunac. Yes. Perhaps, though it may have been
25 called slightly differently. What you refer to as the centre for
1 distribution is the distribution centre housed in a facility that was put
2 up by the Swedish, with all of the equipment and ramps belonging to the
3 Guber company. I took it over perhaps in October or November 1995, when
4 I told you I returned from the RS government. Then I became director of
5 Guber, and it also had a distribution centre under it in Bratunac. The
6 distribution per se is just a building which for the most part was
7 empty --
8 Q. Okay, thank you --
9 A. -- and it had -- what do you call them?
10 Q. Let's go back now to 1992. And apologies to jump you around like
11 this, but perhaps you can confirm that in June 1992, in addition to your
12 positions in the Municipal Board and on the Crisis Staff, you were also
13 appointed to the War Presidency for Bratunac municipality.
14 A. That's right. Per function, per position, because that was
15 something to be occupied by the president of the Executive Council, and
16 as you can see, I was elected to that post legally and legitimately by
17 all the citizens of Bratunac municipality. There were three political
18 parties, the SDA, SDS, and SDP, and out of 61 deputies, there were only
19 4 deputies against my appointment. When this happened, what happened in
20 1992, then I, by virtue of my position as president of Executive Council,
21 became a member of the Crisis Staff for a while during the period when
22 the authorities basically did not even function.
23 Q. Can you also confirm that in addition to these positions you
24 served as a member of the SDS regional board for Birac?
25 A. Yes, I did. I was elected to the Executive Council of the region
1 of Birac called the SAO Birac at the time. It was a political response
2 of ours to the referendum which took place around that time, because the
3 Muslims and Croats decided to hold a referendum to secede from
4 Yugoslavia. I did not dispute their right as a people to do that, but we
5 as a people refused to accept it. By virtue of the constitution from
6 1974 it was the right of the peoples, not of the republics. However,
7 they --
8 Q. Mr. Djukanovic, I didn't ask you about what kind of response you
9 had to the referendums. I simply asked you to confirm whether or not you
10 severed as a member of the SDS regional board for Birac. So maybe I
11 could invite you to just focus on what I'm asking you for questions.
12 A. Precisely.
13 Q. Can you also confirm that the members -- among the other members
14 of the SDS Regional Board were Mr. Deronjic, Rajko Dukic, Brano Grujic,
15 and Jovo Mijatovic, among others? Can you confirm that?
16 A. I can confirm that they were present, and I was there, and I was
17 elected vice-president of the Executive Council of the SAO Birac.
18 Apologies. I just wanted to clarify by saying that it was our political
19 response. It was a political item we rallied around, and we were against
20 the referendum. We wanted to hold a referendum which would be voting on
21 our remaining in Yugoslavia.
22 Q. [Microphone not activated] Now, I want to jump forward to 1995 --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
24 JUDGE KWON: Microphone, Ms. Edgerton.
25 MS. EDGERTON: Oh, I'm sorry, Your Honours. You might tell by my
1 voice I'm a bit under the weather today.
2 Q. So I'd like to move forward to 1995. You said in your statement
3 that in 1995, and I'll find you the exact paragraph reference, in
4 paragraph 53, you were not in Bratunac, and that was in reference to
5 events in Srebrenica in 1995. So I'd just like you to tell us where
6 specifically, physically, you were in July 1995.
7 A. In July 1995, I was still with the RS government on the jobs I
8 have described, but indeed in July 1995, I was in Bratunac. My cousin
9 had been killed, that is to say, my uncle's brother. I was dressed in
10 black and in mourning. I was in Bratunac for a couple of days and did
11 not follow events --
12 Q. And when was that?
13 A. -- but in principle, I wasn't in Bratunac during that period.
14 Q. When was that? When were you in Bratunac in July 1995?
15 A. I was in Bratunac on the very day when Ibran Mustafic, I don't
16 know the date, but it was when he -- he wrote that book. He was the
17 president of the Executive Council in Srebrenica. If you know when he
18 was brought in to the police station, I don't know if he spent a few days
19 there, but it was on the day I was there. I saw him come out in front of
20 the police station to have a cigarette.
21 Q. And --
22 A. I saw him in front of the station in Bratunac and I do not recall
23 which day it was exactly.
24 Q. Well, while you were in Bratunac, did you have -- did the
25 Municipal Assembly meet?
1 A. I was not a deputy in the Municipal Assembly of Bratunac. I told
2 you, I was only a member of the Municipal Board, and I do not recall an
3 Assembly session in Bratunac. That's one thing. Another thing, I told
4 you why I came and what my state of mind was at the time.
5 Q. Maybe --
6 A. I didn't care much about things at the time --
7 Q. Maybe --
8 A. -- and I didn't follow politics.
9 Q. Maybe I can show you another document to refresh your memory.
10 MS. EDGERTON: Could we go back, please, to 65 ter number 00603.
11 Q. These are the minutes of the meetings of the Bratunac Municipal
12 Assembly that I showed you earlier.
13 MS. EDGERTON: Let's go over in English to page 66, and in B/C/S
14 it should be page 55. And I appreciate my friend's difficulty with the
15 Serbian pages, because in fact two pages of a book have been scanned to
16 make a single page. Thank you.
17 Q. Now, here's minutes from the second meeting of the SDS Municipal
18 Board in Bratunac held on July 30th, 1995, and if we scroll -- if we have
19 a look halfway through the page in front of you, we see that you were
20 there, and you see that in both languages.
21 MS. EDGERTON: And if we could go over in English to page 56.
22 Pardon me. If we could go over in B/C/S to page 56. On the bottom
23 left-hand side and over in English to page 67, I think.
24 Under item -- under item 3 we see there that the Assembly was
25 informed on the situation in the area since the liberation of Srebrenica
1 until that day, July 30th.
2 Q. And at this meeting, Mr. Djukanovic, you were included on -- in a
3 working group on a platform for the territorial and political integration
4 of the municipalities of Skelani, Srebrenica, and Bratunac along with
5 Mr. Deronjic, Mr. Simic, and Jovan Nikolic.
6 Now is your memory refreshed as to what you were doing on the
7 30th of July, 1995?
8 A. I do not dispute that I was there on the 30th of July. I did not
9 know what this pertained to. I think I said something different as
10 regards 1995 and the events in Srebrenica. I wasn't there then, because
11 by the time I was the principal market inspector and I thought you were
12 asking me about something else. On the 30th of July, in Bratunac, at the
13 Assembly, I was there positively because I see my name appear several
14 times. Wherever it says "Rocko," "Rocko's suggestion," that's all true,
15 I was there. And I see Rodoljub Djukanovic appearing as well. Yes.
16 Yes. I attended this session of the Assembly. Is there anything in
17 dispute there?
18 Q. No, I'm happy to have your confirmation because it was
19 clarification of your statement to the effect that you weren't in
20 Bratunac around the time of the events in Srebrenica.
21 MS. EDGERTON: I'd like to tender the pages related to this
22 meeting as an exhibit, please, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE KWON: Are you tendering the previous pages we saw,
24 pages -- English pages 55 and 56?
25 MS. EDGERTON: I -- I think it's -- yes, because that covers the
1 whole meeting that date.
2 JUDGE KWON: When Mr. Stevic was here we admitted part of this
3 document, so in that regard we'll admit separately the document parts we
4 saw today as separate exhibit. Shall we give the number.
5 MS. EDGERTON: I did note that other pages had been previously
6 tendered and I'm in Your Honours' hands as to how to organise that.
7 JUDGE KWON: So the dates we are admitting is 14th of August
8 and -- 1994 and 30th of July, 1995.
9 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, please.
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll admit them.
11 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6237, Your Honours.
12 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
13 Q. Now, in your evidence you discussed -- actually, I'll ask you the
14 question a different way. These SDS meetings that we've been looking at,
15 the meetings that you attended, discussed, Mr. Djukanovic, orders and
16 directives you received from Dr. Karadzic and from the SDS central
17 authorities, didn't they?
18 A. Listen, these were no orders by Dr. Karadzic to establish a
19 region or a town that would include Srebrenica and Bratunac. I know
20 there were such proposals by some people who perhaps were not well
21 versed. You know how it is. There are people -- there are tradesmen who
22 wish to be architects, et cetera. These were different matters. But
23 from Karadzic we never received anything in that regard. I know that
24 Miroslav Deronjic was appointed some kind of a civilian commissioner for
25 Srebrenica. That's what I know. Now --
1 Q. Mr. Djukanovic --
2 A. -- as for any direct instructions --
3 Q. When you say that -- when you say that, do you mean to say that
4 you never received orders from Dr. Karadzic at any time during the war?
5 Or even prior?
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excuse me, in what capacity? In
7 what capacity could he have received it, or received it as what, as the
8 president of the Executive Board?
9 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. It's not appropriate for you to
10 intervene in such a way. You can take up the issue. Ms. Edgerton can
11 ask the witness whether he received any order, instruction, or whatever.
12 Please continue, Ms. Edgerton.
13 MS. EDGERTON:
14 Q. Would you like me to repeat my question, Mr. Djukanovic?
15 A. No need. I understood the question well. Trust me, irrespective
16 of President Karadzic's intervention, I never, be it in oral or written
17 form, received from President Karadzic any kind of order to do something
18 which would indicate anything improper. I don't know what you mean
19 exactly, really, but I didn't --
20 Q. No --
21 A. -- at least --
22 Q. [Microphone not activated]
23 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
24 MS. EDGERTON:
25 Q. I'm sorry. I didn't ask about whether or not it was something
1 proper or improper. I asked whether at any time in the period up to or
2 during the conflict in former Yugoslavia you received orders or
3 directives from Dr. Karadzic. And actually, just to make it perfectly
4 clear, I'm not talking about you personally. I'm talking about you
5 within your function - and I hope this assists Dr. Karadzic - within your
6 function in the municipal and SDS authorities in Bratunac, did you
7 receive any orders or directives from Dr. Karadzic; yes or no?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's all I wanted, Your
9 Excellency. To see to what position my instructions should have or were
10 supposed to go to.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The witness started
12 speaking and overlapping. Could he please start again.
13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, when I said inappropriate, just be
14 patient. You can clarify during your re-examination. Because of your
15 intervention, witness was not heard.
16 Could you repeat your answer, Mr. Djukanovic.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I told you I have never, in written
18 or oral form, officially or unofficially, and that's what I usually say,
19 I never received any orders from Mr. Karadzic, any orders to do
20 something, because I was part of the executive authority. I was the
21 principal market inspector and only a member of the Municipal Board, and
22 the president of the Municipal Board was Miroslav Deronjic. Politically
23 speaking -- sorry, I'll try to slow down. He was tasked with
24 communicating with President Karadzic when there were Main Board meetings
25 at the party, et cetera.
1 Now, there was a period during which the work of our political
2 party was frozen, that is to say of the SDS. I don't recall when
3 exactly --
4 Q. Now --
5 A. First and foremost so that there would be no party politics
6 undertaken by just about anyone --
7 Q. Well --
8 A. -- that's why we froze the work of the party.
9 Q. How about -- how about we have a look again at another document
10 because I think that will help focus you really.
11 MS. EDGERTON: This time I'd like to have a look at P3197. Now,
12 this is another set of minutes, P3197. This is another set of minutes
13 and it's minutes of the emergency meeting of the Municipal Board of the
14 SDS of Bratunac. Page -- in B/C/S pages 2 to 4. Not the correct B/C/S
15 page. Start by going to page 2.
16 Q. I'll -- what I'll do is I'll read this to you, and if we need to
17 go back to this after the break or if you'd like to see the original
18 copy --
19 MS. EDGERTON: Do you know -- Madam Registrar [sic], if you could
20 go back one page in B/C/S. And it's because of the way these have been
21 scanned. And again one page, please. There we are.
22 Q. Now, these are minutes of a meeting which you see in the second
23 paragraph which is at the bottom of the page in your language, which you
24 see specifically relate to a meeting of -- an enlarged session of the
25 Main Board of the SDS in BiH.
1 Mr. Deronjic informed all those present about the positions and
2 instructions of the Main Board of the SDH [sic] after an enlarged session
3 was held last night October 18, 1991, and Mr. -- Mr. Djukanovic,
4 underneath the heading of this document you see specifically that these
5 are minutes of an emergency meeting related to the order of the president
6 of the SDS BiH, Dr. Karadzic. How could that be any clearer?
7 And -- and, Mr. Djukanovic, this Court has received evidence that
8 shows that Dr. Karadzic, on the 18th of October, declared a state of
9 emergency in the party, and the SDS across Bosnia and Herzegovina was
10 instructed to take specific measures. Here we have a clear example of
11 the SDS in Bratunac meeting to take specific measures in response to an
12 order from Dr. Karadzic following an enlarged session of the SDS
13 Main Board. So this appears again to directly contradict what you said
14 in your evidence a few minutes ago, does it not?
15 A. To tell you the truth, I didn't completely or entirely understand
16 you. I don't know what it's about. I told you that in terms of
17 communicating with President Karadzic, it was -- well, perhaps it wasn't
18 necessarily his task, but it was part of his job description who was the
19 president of the Municipal Board, and it was Miroslav Deronjic, who was
20 also a member of the Main Board.
21 Now, as for an order arriving from Radovan Karadzic, I don't know
22 what you wanted to say. Was it an order to establish a Crisis Staff or
23 to declare some kind of extraordinary measures or state? Ex officio as
24 the president of the board I was a member of the staff. It's nothing to
25 be disputed. Everyone knows that in times of crisis such staffs are
1 formed, let alone in the type of chaos we lived in.
2 Q. You said unequivocally, actually, that you never received orders
3 or directives from Dr. Karadzic, and that was in answer to my question.
4 And these minutes of this Assembly meeting, which appears to be on the
5 19th of October, 1991, say exactly the contrary. So which is correct,
6 Mr. Djukanovic?
7 A. You're trying to say that at the Assembly session an order
8 arrived from President Karadzic?
9 Q. Mr. Djukanovic, you said you never received orders from
10 Dr. Karadzic. These Assembly minutes say exactly the opposite. Look at
11 the title line:
12 "Minutes of the emergency meeting of the Presidency of the
13 Municipal Board of the SDS of Bratunac related to the order of the
14 president of the SDS of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Dr. Karadzic."
15 What's unclear about that? Mr. Djukanovic, you did receive
16 orders from Dr. Karadzic, didn't you?
17 A. Well -- well, I said I didn't receive any orders from
18 Dr. Karadzic for a long time, and Miroslav liked to use his political
19 skill and would tell us that it was ordered by Dr. Karadzic, whereas, as
20 a matter of fact, he actually wanted to put forth something of his own,
21 perhaps to deal with a political opponent. It was this or that. But I
22 don't see any kind of orders sent by President Karadzic. You can only
23 see that these are the minutes of the emergency meeting of the Presidency
24 of the Municipal Board of the SDS of Bratunac related to the order of the
25 president of the SDS of BH, Dr. Karadzic.
1 Q. So is it your evidence that you --
2 A. I didn't see it ever or -- I'm listening.
3 Q. I'm sorry, I interrupted you. You can finish your sentence.
4 A. No, no. I'm listening. You asked me if I was saying --
5 Q. So are you saying that you in Bratunac then took no special
6 measures as a result of this order from Dr. Karadzic and the positions
7 and instructions of the Main Board of the SDS declaring a state of
9 A. I told you that Miroslav Deronjic would bring these sort of
10 opinions, and we of course trusted him. But to tell you the truth, he
11 frequently used his political skill to forward his own agenda.
12 Q. So are you saying --
13 A. I don't see any orders by Dr. Karadzic in here.
14 Q. So these minutes don't reflect anything from Dr. Karadzic. This
15 reflects Mr. Deronjic's own agenda. Is that what you're saying now?
16 A. Most likely, because I don't see any kind of paper. Is there
17 proof that there was an order? It says on orders from Dr. Karadzic, but
18 I don't see any orders. I don't know.
19 Q. How about --
20 A. To establish Crisis Staffs? What did this pertain to, and what
21 was supposed to be done? Briefing on the situation after an illegal vote
22 of the -- about the sovereignty of Bosnia-Herzegovina. We did discuss
23 such matters, and it's not disputed. And that there may have been such
24 an order by Dr. Karadzic, but I didn't have it in my hand. I probably
25 must have accepted it, and I don't recall it all too well. I don't
1 recall the meeting either. I see I was in attendance because it's in the
2 minutes, but to tell you the truth, I don't know what it is. Is there a
3 mistake in there? I said -- actually, I swore to tell the truth and
4 nothing but the truth, and what I'm saying is 100 per cent truth. If I
5 don't remember it, you have to accept it.
6 Q. So you don't remember -- you don't remember that you were --
7 MS. EDGERTON: And if we could go over to -- slide over to the
8 next page in B/C/S --
9 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Line 20 in the transcript, the
11 witness said:
12 "Even if there had been such a thing, there's nothing in dispute.
13 Even if Karadzic's order had existed, I don't see anything in dispute
15 And he said also:
16 "You have to accept that I may have forgotten things, that there
17 are things that I don't remember."
18 That's on page 35.
19 I'm again asking the witness to speak slowly. I am sure that the
20 interpreters are having a very hard time in that.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Shall we take a break if it is convenient?
22 MS. EDGERTON: Oh, of course. Thank you.
23 JUDGE KWON: When we return, I would like you to speak very slow,
24 Mr. Djukanovic.
25 We'll resume at 11.00.
1 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
2 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.
3 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Ms. Edgerton.
4 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
5 Q. Mr. Djukanovic, before we broke, Dr. Karadzic noted that on the
6 transcript you effectively disputed any order from Dr. Karadzic having
7 issued on the 18th of October. You said, "I don't see any kind of paper.
8 Is there proof that there was an order?"
9 So I'd like to show you some proof, all right?
10 MS. EDGERTON: Could we have a look at 65 ter number 03322. It's
11 a telegram from Dr. Karadzic.
12 MR. ROBINSON: Can you check the number?
13 THE REGISTRAR: Ms. Edgerton, I think you meant P332.
14 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. I'm sure I must have. Thank you,
15 Mr. Robinson.
16 No. Let me -- indulge me for a moment and I'll speak with
17 Mr. Reid. And in the meanwhile I can go to another document,
18 65 ter number 00964, and I hope I've got that number right.
19 Q. This is, Mr. Djukanovic, a telegram from Dr. Karadzic to the
20 Municipal Board of the SDS in Zavidovici, and it says:
21 "... I," pursuant to statutory authorisations, "hereby announce
22 the SDS state of emergency mandatory for all its organs, members, and
23 personnel in the authorities. You will receive daily instructions on
24 measures regarding the state of emergency ..."
25 And it's dated 18 October 1991, the same date as the orders, the
1 minutes of the emergency meeting of the Bratunac Municipal Board of the
2 SDS that we have been talking about.
3 Do you maintain that the Bratunac SDS received no orders from
4 Dr. Karadzic?
5 A. May I? May I?
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I stated that I had never seen
8 this. I never received any orders from Dr. Radovan Karadzic. Now that
9 you have shown this to me, I considered a telegram did arrive at the
10 municipal -- Municipal Board in Zavidovici, if this is indeed authentic,
11 and I don't doubt it. I'm not disputing that that happened, but I did
12 not see it, and I am testifying on my own behalf. It was a matter of
13 debate at the meeting of the Municipal Board, and I could also see that
14 from the document that you showed me, everything that we saw in the
15 minutes where it says that we decided on a plebiscite. Actually, it was
16 a referendum of the Serbian people, and I believe that before that I had
17 said that we decided to stay in Yugoslavia, and that was the topic of our
18 discussion at the meeting of the Municipal Board. I do not dispute that.
19 I do not dispute the fact that you asked me nothing about, but I
20 suppose you will, that I became a member of the Crisis Staff that was set
21 up -- or, rather, there was a proposal to establish the Crisis Staff.
22 You will probably have a document to show me when it became operational.
23 I am not denying the fact that as the president of the Municipal Board,
24 by virtue of that position I automatically became a member of the
25 Crisis Staff. I don't see anything in dispute there. I don't see us
1 contradicting each other in any way. You asked --
2 Q. Mr. Djukanovic --
3 A. -- me whether we received or not -- yes, I'm with you. I'm
5 Q. My question was whether you maintained that the SDS board in
6 Bratunac received no orders from Dr. Karadzic, having seen this document
7 and having looked at the minutes relating to the order of
8 18 October 1991. And your answer was about personally receiving orders.
9 My question is about the SDS board for Bratunac.
10 A. Well, yes. Well, listen, let me tell you, when I said that I
11 never received anything from President Karadzic I was speaking on my own
12 behalf. When it comes to the Municipal Board, it was Miroslav Deronjic
13 who conveyed messages to us, and I told you that after such a long time I
14 could not remember the course of the meeting itself. I can't tell you
15 that I remember what Miroslav told us. However, based on the document
16 that you have just shown me, I can see that Miroslav was the one who put
17 us abreast of the situation, that we accept his report, and that based on
18 that we selected organs for the referendum. Like, for example, you --
19 Jovan Nikolic and then members of the executive staff -- or, rather, the
20 Crisis Staff, I don't know what you want to call it. Some members were
21 chosen, and I was among those people. This is correct.
22 So I don't know. I don't see that there is any contradiction
23 there between the two of us. I don't see us being at diametrically
24 opposite positions. I'm only telling you that I did not see
25 Dr. Karadzic's order. It arrived in Zavidovici, and if it arrived in
1 Bratunac, it must have reached the hands of the president of the board.
2 There's nothing in dispute there. We did opt for a referendum in order
3 to stay in Yugoslavia and that was contrary to the attempts of the other
4 two peoples who wanted to secede from Yugoslavia. They as peoples wanted
5 to separate Bosnia and Herzegovina from the rest of the state.
6 MS. EDGERTON: Could I have this document, please, as a
7 Prosecution exhibit.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll receive it.
9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6238, Your Honours.
10 MS. EDGERTON:
11 Q. So along this line, when you at paragraph 27 of your statement
12 said you were not aware that the party leadership, politicians, or
13 President Karadzic himself sent any plans to municipalities referring to
14 some Variants A and B, were you speaking in terms of your own personal
16 A. Well, I was an important member of the SDS. After all, I was a
17 member of the Municipal Board. I was the President of the Executive
18 Board. I was a member of the political and executive authorities there,
19 so I should have been aware of that. I'm telling the whole truth, and in
20 my statement I stated that I had never heard of any plans A, B, although
21 I believe that Miroslav would have informed me about the existence of
22 such a plan if there was indeed such a plan. That's why I'm surprised by
23 the fact that I did not receive the paper that you are showing me for
24 municipality of Zavidovici. I'm sure that I would have been given that
25 paper if there had been some plans in place as you are putting to me. I
1 should have been abreast. I should have known, but I didn't.
2 MS. EDGERTON: Let's go back to 65 ter number 00603, minutes of
3 the meetings of the Municipal Assembly of Bratunac municipality, English
4 translation page 12.
5 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me. These minutes are actually identified
6 as the minutes of the Assembly of the SDS party, not the Bratunac
8 MS. EDGERTON: Apologies. And I accept your correction.
9 English page 12. And rather than count the B/C/S page, I'll give
10 you the ERN number that appears at the top of the page. It's 02192721.
11 Q. Now, these, Mr. Djukanovic, are minutes of a meeting of the
12 Bratunac SDS Municipal Board, dated 23 December 1991, and it's a meeting
13 to consider the material from the SDS Presidency in Sarajevo. A decision
14 was reached to form the Serbian BiH, Bosnia and Herzegovina. This -- it
15 refers to two variants, A and B, which were proposed. For Bratunac, the
16 Variant B was envisaged. Second level of organisation.
17 Now, Mr. Djukanovic, as an important member, as you've just
18 described yourself, of the SDS in Bratunac, who would have seen, as
19 you've just said, this document, and being confronted now with the
20 minutes where the document was discussed, how can you maintain that you
21 never heard about the Variant A and B document?
22 A. Well, you're trying to say that I am not telling the truth, but I
23 did tell the truth, and I swore that I would tell the truth. I really
24 wasn't aware of any plans A or B. I am looking at the minutes. I don't
25 know whether I attended that meeting. But I can see that there is
1 reference to some duty, detail, a Crisis Staff. I did tell you that I'd
2 been elected to a Crisis Staff. That's a fact. In my view, that was
3 upon the insistence of Mr. Miroslav Deronjic. Please do not make me
4 refer to dead people. I don't want to say anything bad about that
5 person, but as I've told you, Miroslav sometimes --
6 Q. I'm not asking you to refer to dead people. I'm asking you --
7 I'm asking you how in your capacity, if you were as in the know as you
8 claim to be, you, confronted with these minutes, now maintain you never
9 heard of the Variant A and B document?
10 THE INTERPRETER: Impossible to translate.
11 MS. EDGERTON:
12 Q. Could you repeat your comment, please.
13 A. Miroslav Deronjic was one of the vice-presidents. There's
14 nothing to repeat. Miroslav Deronjic was a member of the SDS Presidency
15 in Sarajevo, and this seems to be discussing materials from the SDS
16 Presidency in Sarajevo. And as it says here, he said something that I
17 cannot read. He presented the material and then they moved on to item 1.
18 A decision was made on the establishment of the Serbian Republic of
19 Bosnia and Herzegovina. Two variants are envisaged, A and B. For us
20 Variant B was envisaged and in terms of the level of organisation.
21 Believe me, I don't remember this. I don't know what these Variants A
22 and B are. What does this refer to? I cannot establish any links.
23 I said in my statement that I was not aware of the existence of
24 any variants and especially not of the fact that we were supposed to fall
25 under Variant B. I really don't have a clue.
1 And as for Zavidovici, Zavidovici is a very specific municipality
2 which is in the federation, in the Central Bosnia-Herzegovina. There may
3 have been a state of emergency there. I don't have a clue. I don't know
4 what the situation was like there at the moment because the chaos already
5 started reigning supreme in the state. And I really don't know that
6 there were any Variants A and B for Bratunac. I don't know what
7 Variant A was as opposed to Variant B. Please can you show me whether I
8 attended this session of the Municipal Council. Is that the same session
9 and --
10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the date. Could
11 the witness please be instructed to slow down.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can you tell me whether I attended
13 this meeting? Did I make an intervention that would --
14 MS. EDGERTON:
15 Q. Mr. Djukanovic -- Mr. Djukanovic --
16 A. -- that would demonstrate that I --
17 Q. The interpreters continue to have a difficult time following you
18 because you speak so quickly. Could you please make an effort, for their
19 sake and the clarity of the record, to slow down. And I would invite you
20 to focus on the questions, because you seem to have a tendency to answer
21 things that are not posed to you.
22 Now, you said that if this had been concerning some official
23 party document, you would have known about it, and you said that in your
24 statement. So --
25 A. That is correct.
1 Q. Because you've not heard of this document you think it's not an
2 official party document even though the Crisis Staff that you became a
3 member was determined to be constituted at this 23 December meeting
4 pursuant to these instructions?
5 So you became a member of the Crisis Staff. The Crisis Staff was
6 formed, and you became a member on the basis of an unofficial document?
7 A. I don't know whether I was already a member. It stems from this
8 that this was just a proposal. I'm surprised by the fact that I'm at the
9 last place in that Crisis Staff. I believe that I occupied a place that
10 would have been closer to the top. I can see that everybody is above me.
11 I am at the bottom of that list. I don't even know whether I attended
12 that meeting but I claim that I am not aware of any A or B variants.
13 This is your key question. This is a key issue here; right? And I have
14 already answered that I am not aware of Variant A or B. This is what you
15 asked me. And as for me being a member of the Crisis Staff, I was a
17 There was a proposal on the table. It was meant to be -- become
18 operational in a state of emergency.
19 Q. Let's go -- let's leave this document and go to another meeting,
20 because --
21 JUDGE KWON: If you tender this page, we'll admit it.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours --
23 MS. EDGERTON: Oh.
24 THE REGISTRAR: -- it's already in evidence as Exhibit P2598.
25 JUDGE KWON: Oh, yes.
1 MS. EDGERTON:
2 Q. You know, Mr. Djukanovic, this document, this Variant A and B
3 document, was recovered in locations like Livno, and that's P3470; the
4 Boksit office at the Holiday Inn, and that's P960; a briefcase found in
5 Dr. Karadzic's apartment, P005. This Chamber has received evidence from
6 Defence witnesses that this document was distributed to Mr. Grujic, the
7 SDS president in Zvornik, and that's T 17227. It's received evidence
8 from witnesses that it was implemented by the SDS party in locations like
9 Ilidza, in Sarajevo; that's T 35210 and T 12952. And Dr. Karadzic
10 himself in 1995, at the 50th Assembly session, and you said you were an
11 assemblyman - and that's P970, pages 316 in English and 970 in B/C/S -
12 specifically referred to this document. He said:
13 "You will remember the A and B Variants. In the B variant, where
14 we were in the minority, 20 per cent, 15 per cent, we had set up a
15 government and a brigade, a unit, no matter what size, but there was a
16 detachment with a commander," and then further he says, "distribution of
17 weapons was carried out thanks to the JNA."
18 So for a man as integrated in the SDS and municipality structures
19 as you were, as influential as you claim to be, Mr. Djukanovic, it rings
20 hollow your assertion that you had never heard of the Variant A and B
21 document, particularly so when it's discussed during a meeting of the
22 Bratunac SDS Municipal Board short days after it was distributed in
24 So, Mr. Djukanovic, did you hear about it or didn't you?
25 A. I've already told you that I did not hear of the Variants A and
1 B. I don't know what was going on in Livno. I'm testifying on my own
2 behalf. I don't know what you found in Livno and Zvornik, what kind of
3 documents. I would like you to show me --
4 Q. So your answer is no. Your answer is no.
5 A. My answer is that I did not know of the A and B Variant plan.
6 That's my answer.
7 Q. Okay. We'll move on. Now, you spoke in your statement about the
8 armed soldiers --
9 A. Of course.
10 Q. -- who arrived in Bratunac in April 1992, and they moved into the
11 Hotel Fontana, and that was in paragraph 29. And in paragraph 31 you
13 "To this day, I do not know who brought that unit to Bratunac."
14 So as I understand your evidence then, this is -- by that point
15 in time in April, this is after the division of the police; correct?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. A --
18 A. No, no. The police was split later. You're saying that a group
19 of soldiers, some 20 of them, were billeted in Fontana Hotel after the
20 split in the police. As far as I know, the split in the police came
21 later. So it seems to me that the link that you're establishing is
22 wrong. The police was divided later.
23 Q. How about I ask you the question another way. So your evidence,
24 integrated into the municipal government structures as you were, is that
25 you don't know who brought these paramilitaries in. Mr. Djukanovic, it
1 was you who brought them in, wasn't it? It was the SDS board from
2 Bratunac who was most active in the preparations for the organisation of
3 the Serbian people in Bratunac. And it was you, together with
4 Mr. Deronjic, who facilitated their arrival into the town. Isn't that
6 A. Not correct. I apologise for telling you that you're not telling
7 the truth. It is simply not correct. It's simply not true. Those
8 people came from somewhere, and they just turned up in front of
9 Fontana Hotel one morning. None of us had known about their arrival, and
10 I claim that with full responsibility. Maybe somebody knew, but I as
11 somebody, as a factor in the authorities, in the state, I didn't know
12 about that. I was surprised that not even Mr. Deronjic or Mr. Nikolic or
13 anybody in my vicinity knew about that. None of the members of that
14 so-called Crisis Staff, which was never established -- or, rather, it was
15 just a proposal before the war activities started. Some people arrived.
16 Nobody knew them, and their commander's name was Zan, and I put it very
17 nicely in my statement. That man invited me and Deronjic, Nijaz Dubicic,
18 Mirsad Kavazbasic, the president of the SDA, the president of the
19 Assembly, and the president of Srebrenica municipality, Besim Ibisevic,
20 he invited us to a meeting.
21 Q. Now you're repeating your statement, so we'll move on. And you
22 accuse me of not telling the truth, but I'll tell you why I asked the
23 question, because on the 6th of May, 1992, General Mladic,
24 General Mladic, received information from General Mandaric -- and I'll
25 let you have a look where he recorded that information. It's in P1477,
1 and it's General Mladic's notebook on 6 May 1992.
2 MS. EDGERTON: If we could go to the B/C/S typewritten page.
3 That would be page 258, and the English pages are 253 to 255.
4 Q. Now, on that date, General Mladic noted -- he was getting a
5 briefing on the situation from General Mandaric. Nikola Mandaric,
6 Mr. Djukanovic, at that time was the JNA 1st Military District Chief of
7 Staff. And Mandaric says on 6th of May, a front has opened up on the
8 Drina. In Bratunac, two representatives of the SDS are killing all
9 Muslims by slitting their throats. Rodoljub Djukanovic, the president of
10 the SDS, and Rodoljub [sic] Deronjic, two detachments from Bratunac TO,
11 they brought in all the cut-throats from Vukovar and killed everyone they
12 laid their hands on in Hranca near Milici.
13 So I asked the question because the JNA Chief of Staff for the
14 1st Military District was telling General Mladic he had some information
15 to the contrary. It was you who actually facilitated their arrival into
16 Bratunac, wasn't it, Mr. Djukanovic?
17 A. Believe me that nothing here that I see, I see this is some
18 working book of General Mladic. Hranca is not in Bratunac. This is all
19 kind of mish-mash. It has nothing to do with the truth, and to tell you
20 frankly, neither I nor Mr. Deronjic facilitated anyone's arrival. The
21 war spilled over into Bosnia from Croatia, and these people came on their
22 own, this whirlwind of war, and I don't think this is true. I'm not sure
23 that this was actually written by General Mladic. I don't know who fed
24 him this information. And General Mandaric never came to Bratunac.
25 And the use of such words such as cut-throat are such ugly,
1 heinous words and I would never use them in my life. Not only I, nobody
2 amongst us was prepared to commit any crime of that nature. I already
3 said nobody issued any instruction telling us to behave in that manner.
4 All these people didn't have proper names. They all came with
5 nicknames like Zan, Rambo, Djumbo [phoen], Makedonac [phoen],
6 Bugarin [phoen]. There were all nationalities among them, including
7 Muslims, and I tend to believe that there were even Croats among them.
8 It was a motley crew. But to tell you the truth, there were no people
9 that we had known before and that we had invited to come over.
10 Q. I want to go to another area which is probably going to take me
11 about the next ten minutes, and it's because you said, oddly enough, in
12 your statement that in the -- as far as I can remember, between April and
13 July 1992, and that was at paragraph 51, there was practically no
14 communication between Bratunac and Pale, or if it did exist, it was
15 irregular, difficult, and inadequate. But I want to show you, actually,
16 how well informed Dr. Karadzic and the political and military leadership
17 of the RS were about the situation in Bratunac during this period.
18 MS. EDGERTON: If we could go to P1478. That's another notebook
19 of General Mladic, and I'd like to go to -- first to English pages 93 and
20 B/C/S typewritten page 93 as well, please.
21 This records General Mladic's notes on consultations on
22 6 June 1992, on the military and political situation in the Serbian
23 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina with leading representatives of the
24 state and political leadership. So if we flip over to page 94 -- oh,
25 now, I don't need the handwritten pages.
1 Now, we see that Dr. Karadzic is president -- present at this
2 meeting with General Mladic. And if we go over to page 95 in both
3 versions, we see that Mr. Koljevic, Dr. Koljevic -- the next page in the
4 B/C/S, please, as well. Dr. Koljevic was there as well. And if you flip
5 over to page 98 in English and page 97 in the typewritten B/C/S, you see
6 that Velibor Ostojic is present.
7 Q. And after that, Mr. Djukanovic, you'll see, if I was to show you
8 the whole meeting, a range of political and municipal leaders were
9 present at this meeting. But if we can now go over to page 101 in both
10 languages, there's a briefing there from Bratunac municipality, and it
12 "There are no Muslims left in Bratunac municipality. It's a
13 fully liberated town. There are even no villages which cut off the
15 So contrary to what you say, in June 1992, when you say
16 communication is poor, Dr. Karadzic and his political colleagues as well
17 as his military commanders were fully apprised of the situation in
18 Bratunac, weren't they?
19 A. What I'm looking at here, when it says "from Bratunac
20 municipality" and then it says "Bratunac is a fully liberated town,"
21 frankly speaking, I don't know. Even though I would have liked to have
22 been informed about everything that was going on, for example, I wanted
23 to know everything about the trial of Professor Miroslav Deronjic, this
24 resembles a statement that he made about his brief in the political
25 leadership. But you have to bear in mind that Miroslav Deronjic has
1 struck a deal with you, the Prosecution, and that he sometimes went even
2 further from what you asked him to do because he had been ordered to do
3 so in order to save his family. He believed to have been punished --
4 Q. Mr. Djukanovic, how does that --
5 A. -- too harshly, but I don't know what --
6 Q. -- answer my question? How does that answer my question? My
7 question --
8 A. Well, you're saying --
9 Q. My question --
10 A. -- that you are well informed.
11 Q. My question was this: Contrary to what you say was the case in
12 June 1992, Dr. Karadzic and his political and military leadership were
13 fully apprised of the situation in Bratunac. Isn't that the case?
14 A. Well, look. Maybe you should better ask Dr. Radovan Karadzic
15 about this, because I really don't know whether he was so well informed.
16 This resembles Miroslav Deronjic's statement to the effect that he
17 managed to break through to Sarajevo --
18 Q. Mr. Djukanovic, why do you keep referring to Mr. Deronjic when I
19 never ask you a question about Mr. Deronjic? Not one. I asked you a
20 question about communication because you said that communication was
21 poor. And I'm going to ask you one more question about communication.
22 We're going to keep with this diary for a minute.
23 MS. EDGERTON: Let's go to page 246 in e-court, English, and
24 page 244 of the B/C/S typewritten version. And that records a lengthy
25 meeting on 30 June 1992, that Dr. Karadzic and General Mladic had in
1 Zvornik, and that included the presidents of Bratunac, Zvornik,
2 Vlasenica, Sekovici, and Srebrenica, along with military commanders. And
3 you see at number 3 of the attendees, Mr. Simic was there.
4 So let's go over to what Mr. Simic says at page 256 in B/C/S and
5 258 in English.
6 Q. Mr. Simic --
7 A. Are you referring to Ljubisa Simic, the president of Bratunac
8 municipality? Oh, yes.
9 Q. Mr. Simic says:
10 "According to the last census, it was 64-36 in favour of the
11 Muslims. In Bratunac municipality, we now have two Muslims."
12 So any -- Mr. -- Mr. Djukanovic, any expression or view on your
13 part that communication was poor and -- with Pale and that it might have
14 been difficult or inadequate is actually completely unsustainable, isn't
15 it, Mr. Djukanovic? The municipal and military leadership here on the
16 30th of June, precisely when you said there was practically no
17 communication between Bratunac and Pale, are meeting with the
18 Supreme Commander and the Commander-in-Chief and telling him there's only
19 two Muslims left in Bratunac.
20 A. I didn't say that there was no communication whatsoever. I said
21 that we had difficulties, and it's not in dispute. That's what I stated
22 in my statement. But I cannot say that there were no communications at
23 all. The president came over in 1993 to help UNPROFOR. So he did
24 somehow find a way of communicating with us. As far as I can see, I
25 wasn't present at this meeting, but that is immaterial. If Ljubisa Simic
1 was there, that's the main point. And you said that this meeting took
2 place in Zvornik? Is that what you said? Was that in Zvornik?
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. Yes, in Zvornik. All right. I said that communication was
5 difficult and almost nonexistent, but I never said that there was no
6 communication at all. You cannot make me say that, because that is not
8 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. That will be all from me,
9 Your Honours. I have nothing further.
10 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Thank you.
11 Mr. Karadzic, do you have re-examination?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellency. Let's start
13 with the most recent question about communications.
14 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
15 Q. [Interpretation] In paragraph 42, Mr. Djukanovic, you say that
16 during that period there was no communication with Pale. You speak about
17 Glogova in May. What did you mean by saying "in that period"?
18 A. Well, that was the period, Mr. President, when there was fiercest
19 fighting in the area of Bratunac. As far as I know, the passage of the
20 JNA, which we considered the only legitimate armed force, was hindered
21 because everybody else was considered by us as illegal and paramilitary
23 There was an agreement between our local president - and I hope
24 that the Prosecutor will not accuse me of referring to Mr. Deronjic
25 again - but the passage of an army was hindered at one point in the
1 village of Hranca that resulted in dead and wounded. And at one time a
2 decision was made to straight the front line in the area of Glogova,
3 which is now a Bosniak village.
4 Q. We'll come to that. We are now on page 255 at the moment. Does
5 it say here that Captain Izet work for the TO, that Captain Todorovic
6 received a salary, that there was led in Svetozarevo [phoen], et cetera.
7 What was the nationality of Captain Izet?
8 A. He was a Muslim who was fighting on our side, as far as I know.
9 If we are thinking about the same thing. I know that there was an Izet
10 who was fighting alongside Serbs in this area where Captain Todorovic
11 operated, and this is all I know about this.
12 Q. Can I kindly ask you to look at what Mr. Simic is saying:
13 "We are standing in the same place for a long time, and we have
14 become lax."
15 Is Mr. Simic actually complaining or boasting that there were two
16 Muslims in the municipality?
17 A. I believe that he was expressing regret over that fact.
18 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton.
19 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. It calls for a completely speculative
20 answer, Your Honours.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is not guesswork. We were all
22 sorry for all the Muslim families that had to leave Bratunac because they
23 feared for their safety, and they did it on their own initiative.
24 JUDGE KWON: I agree with Ms. Edgerton. The Chamber agrees with
25 Ms. Edgerton's observation.
1 Please move on, Mr. Karadzic.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Did you know Mr. Simic?
4 A. You mean President Ljubisa Simic?
5 Q. Yes.
6 A. Of course I knew him.
7 Q. Did you two co-operate?
8 A. Yes, we did, and we had good co-operation.
9 Q. Did you discuss the issue of the departure of both Muslims and
11 A. Yes, Mr. President. We discussed these topics and other topics
12 as well, including military logistics, the departure of Muslims from
13 Bratunac, and the topic of providing assistance to anyone regardless of
14 whether they were Serbs or Muslims. And we selflessly provided this aid
15 without expecting any commendations or citations on expressions of
16 gratitude. So that was a proper way to do things.
17 We were sort of authorities in that period. We were not proper
18 authorities, and we did our best to help people as much as we could.
19 I know that Mr. Simic, with regard to Mr. Izet, who is
20 unfortunately deceased, he provided him in a car -- with a car and
21 offered him to take some people with him. Unfortunately, he left on his
22 own, whereas the people gathered outside the municipal building. They
23 were asking for help. They wanted buses to be provided to them. They
24 wanted help for their children. They asked for food, and we did what we
1 Q. Thank you.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Did the two of you share the same attitude towards the relocation
5 or the departure of the population, and were you aware of what I thought
6 about that?
7 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
8 MS. EDGERTON: That question, in my submission, Your Honours,
9 goes outside of the cross-examination.
10 JUDGE KWON: Correct.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, can we have, then, page 98.
12 Let's see what this document says or what is recorded in this document.
13 98, 98. It seems that my words are being quoted. Just a moment. Can we
14 scroll down page 98. Possibly this is the beginning of my contribution.
15 We need, actually, the previous page, the bottom of the previous page.
16 Two pages back. One more, please. We have different numbers on the top
17 and the bottom of the pages. Now, this is the correct page. On the top
18 we have 96, and on the bottom we have 97.
19 Can we now have the next page.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Can you please read the very end of my contribution.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic. The -- Ms. Edgerton raised this,
23 discussed this with the witness to hear about the lack of communication
24 he referred to in his statement, not in relation to the subject matter.
25 So could you tell us how it arises from the line of cross-examination of
1 Ms. Edgerton?
2 Mr. Robinson.
3 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. Ms. Edgerton didn't just deal
4 with that topic but the actual substance of what was conveyed to this
5 witness as reflected in General Mladic's notebooks, two Muslims left in
6 Bratunac, things like that. I think this goes directly to show that --
7 what Dr. Karadzic's position was and how that was also being conveyed to
8 people in Bratunac.
9 JUDGE KWON: Very well. I think in that regard we can allow the
10 question. Please proceed.
11 Ms. Edgerton, would you like to add anything?
12 MS. EDGERTON: In a non-leading way, perhaps.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Mr. Djukanovic, did you know what my position was concerning the
17 right of civilians, particularly with regard with their departure and
19 A. Mr. President, I was aware of your views from the very time when
20 the party was founded. And it says here quite clearly we must not
21 pressure people to have displaced [as interpreted]. And I think this was
22 faithfully recorded, and we shared this same attitude.
23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not understand what
24 witness was saying.
25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Djukanovic. Mr. Djukanovic. Mr. Djukanovic,
1 could you kindly repeat your answer from the start very slowly.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am aware of the president's
3 position in this respect, and it says here, and I quote:
4 "We must not exert pressure on the people to move."
5 And that was the attitude that both the president and we shared.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Thank you. Now let's go back to the issue of communications.
8 Did you as the president of the municipal government have any
9 communication, and how often, either with me or anyone else at Pale at
10 the beginning of war, that is to say, prior to the 30th of June, because
11 this Mladic's note is dated the 30th of June, 1992?
12 A. Mr. President, I said that we had poor communication and that as
13 far as I personally am concerned, I had communicated with you very
14 rarely, and I already said that.
15 Q. Thank you. Today on page 101 of this document it was recorded
16 that somebody said that Bratunac was a fully liberated town. Can you
17 tell the Chamber what was the size of the territory in Bratunac that was
18 under your control on the 30th of June, 1992?
19 A. The only territory we had under our control was the territory of
20 the town itself on the 30th of June. And I think that only in the area
21 of Glogova and Hranca where it says that the passage of the JNA was
22 hindered was something that was altered. I think that was under our
23 control as well with the exception of Kravica who had their own control
24 point because of the front line being criss-crossed.
25 Q. It was not recorded that:
1 "We did not have our internal communications working, let alone
2 any communication with you in Pale."
3 Can you please wait, because it was not recorded that you
4 confirmed that this is correct, and let us both speak more slowly.
5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't hear the witness's
6 answer. Maybe if he would be kind enough to move closer to the mike.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. You were too quick.
9 A. I said I agree, President.
10 Q. You were too quick again.
11 A. It's a deal, Mr. President.
12 Q. Thank you. Did you confirm that this sentence which I quoted was
13 not recorded in the transcript, that you said, "We did not have any
14 internal communication, let alone communication with you in Pale"? Do
15 you confirm that?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. Thank you. On page 48 you were asked about the notes and what
18 General Mandaric told General Mladic on the 6th of May, 1992. Whose
19 generals were those two in that period on the 6th of May?
20 A. On the 6th of May the two were the JNA generals, because at that
21 time the Army of Republika Srpska had not yet been established.
22 Q. What was the position and the attitude of the municipal
23 authorities at the time vis-a-vis the paramilitary formations that you
24 said appeared as volunteers initially and then continued to operate as
1 A. Our attitude was that they were undesirable elements in our
2 territory. We even adopted a decision to expel them from our area.
3 However, people assembled, some say spontaneously, somebody said under
4 someone's influence, but whatever the case may be, we were going through
5 a difficult period, and we were at risk, and our own safety was in
6 danger. Some of these units remained in the area, but we respected the
7 JNA as the only legitimate force.
8 According to the information that we had, the JNA was given the
9 dead-line of 17th of May to withdraw from Bosnia-Herzegovina. According
10 to what they said, this deadline was extended up to the 29th of May, and
11 they abided by it. I don't know who set up this deadline.
12 Q. Thank you, Mr. Djukanovic. I don't have too much time either.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have D3116.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. So on the 6th of May, Mandaric had a talk with Mladic, probably
16 on the phone, in which he accused you and Deronjic of having brought in
17 these paramilitary formations and that the Serbs are cutting throats.
18 A. I see he did, but what he said was not true. It was not so.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The next page, please. The one
20 after that. We could see a better page before. I don't know what this
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. In any case, I'll read it out in English. Although you
24 understand English as well.
25 [In English] "Serbian Republic of BH, SAO Birac, Bratunac
1 municipality, Crisis Staff, Bratunac 6th of May, 1992.
2 "On the basis of the decision of the National Security Council of
3 the Serbian Republic of BH, and pursuant to the SAO Birac Crisis Staff
4 Decision, and Decision of the Commissioner of the Government of the
5 Serbian Republic of BH for the Birac area, the Bratunac Municipality
6 Crisis Staff hereby takes the following decision:
7 "All paramilitary formations should leave the territory of
8 Bratunac municipality by 1600 hours on 7th of May ..."
9 [Interpretation] Perhaps the conditional "should" in the
10 translation is somewhat softer than the original, but in any case, do you
11 recall when issued this decision and whether this is the decision in
13 A. This is the one.
14 Q. There's a more legible original, and I think the "should" should
15 have been translated as "must."
16 A. Yes, must.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we next have D3117, please.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. So we can see what sort of decisions you made prior to the
20 6th of May.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the page where the text
22 of the decision is.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Did Mandaric ever come or spoke on the phone with any one of you
25 in Bratunac, with you, or that you learned of him talking to someone
2 A. No. No one from the circle of people making up the Crisis Staff
3 at the time, and I stand by it. I didn't see him there ever either, and
4 I didn't hear of his coming there or talking to anyone. I don't know.
5 Q. So on the 1st of May, pursuant to a decision of the
6 National Security Council of the Serbian Republic of BH on declaring an
7 imminent threat of war and pursuant to the Crisis Staff decision and so
8 on and so forth, you issued this order forbidding all paramilitary
9 formations and illegal citizens, probably illegally armed citizens, to
10 act in the area of Bratunac municipality. Do you recall having reached
11 this decision?
12 A. I do. I see that it was signed by Zoran Tesic. He was one of
13 the members of the Crisis Staff. He was probably standing in for
14 Miroslav at the time because he may have been away, but I do recall an
15 order of this kind being issued.
16 Q. Thank you. On page 45 of today's transcript, you were quoted --
17 or, actually, you were suggested that the Municipal Board of the SDS was
18 at its most active in preparing the Serbian people of Bratunac. Can you
19 tell us what were the competencies of civilian authorities in the domain
20 of defence at the time the JNA still existed in Bosnia and Herzegovina?
21 What could you and dared do?
22 A. Believe me, it was a period of time when even some kind of
23 military administration should have been imposed. We as the civilian
24 authorities for them basically did not even exist, and we did not dare
25 meddle in military affairs. It simply wouldn't work. Not only that we
1 didn't dare, but we shouldn't have. The army is the army, and the
2 civilian police stayed away as well. That is my answer to your question.
3 We tried to set up local authorities and some kind of
4 administration to maybe provide logistics and food for the army. That
5 was the thrust of our activity. But as for any important decisions that
6 would have to do with combat activities and operations, well, we didn't
7 take part in it.
8 Q. Thank you. Were you the head of the executive branch in Bratunac
9 before the war?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Not only the Variants A and B or did you receive any kind of
12 party documents containing instructions or orders as the executive
13 branch? Did you receive anything of the kind from the party?
14 A. I've said already, and I'm prepared to be held criminally liable
15 in case this is disproven, I assert that this is the truth. We did -- I
16 did not.
17 Q. Thank you. Did you establish the Crisis Staff pursuant to the
18 decision or was it a telegram of the 23rd of December? Or how did you go
19 about establishing the Crisis Staff and when?
20 A. The Crisis Staff was formed later on. I'm not saying that there
21 weren't certain proposals as we could see in the minutes, but the
22 Crisis Staff was formed precisely when the crisis began, when the first
23 casualties in Bratunac occurred and people were upset. Serbs were
24 fleeing to Serbia, Muslims were fleeing too, and we were receiving
25 refugees from Zenica. It was a time of crisis where we had to have a
1 working body which would attempt to address the crisis, to alleviate it,
2 or to perhaps reach a better situation in order to establish the
3 functioning of authorities and the rule of law. That's what we were
4 taught. I had worked for 21 years in state administration by that time,
5 so I was a long-standing civil servant, and many of us had previous
7 Ultimately, the Crisis Staff -- I'm sorry to expand, but it was
8 comprised of teachers, high school teachers, such as Miroslav Deronjic.
9 He was -- he even studied in France as an exceptional student. He was
10 sent to teach there. He could speak languages. There was Ljubisav
11 Simic. Then Tesic, who was a civil engineer. Momir Nikolic, who was
12 indicted and sentenced before this court, he had a national defence
13 degree in -- from Sarajevo. There was also Zoran Radic. So we all did
14 what we knew how to do and we also had someone familiar with the laws of
15 war, international conventions, and he briefed us on all that so we could
16 decide on further action.
17 Q. Thank you. As regards a question concerning the Crisis Staff, we
18 did not find in the transcript something that you said, which was that
19 the ideas actually that there was a proclamation, a decision made to
20 establish a Crisis Staff --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the interlocutors be asked to slow down.
22 We missed the last two interventions.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Again the transcript.
24 JUDGE KWON: You are speaking too fast, both of you.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. So the question was: Did you say today that the Crisis Staff
2 became operational only upon the outbreak of the war?
3 A. That's what I said.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have this, P6238. It's
6 a telegram. Sorry. No. No. 00603, 65 ter.
7 JUDGE KWON: What page, Mr. Karadzic?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I need 26. Page 26, line 12. Oh,
9 there it is.
10 MS. EDGERTON: With respect, I still can't find in the transcript
11 where the witness is to have said what Dr. Karadzic alleges he said and
12 based this question on. So I'm wondering where we're going with this,
13 especially as it doesn't seem to have arisen during the course of the
15 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry, I don't follow your comment,
16 Ms. Edgerton. Mr. Karadzic now wants to see the SDS Bratunac minutes
17 which you showed us.
18 MS. EDGERTON: Yes. I was going back to Dr. Karadzic's question
19 at page 62, line 5:
20 "As regards a question concerning the Crisis Staff, we didn't
21 find in the transcript something you said ..."
22 A decision, which was that the idea was -- yeah. So I'm just --
23 and then Dr. Karadzic asked the witness to confirm:
24 "Did you say today that the Crisis Staff only became operational
25 on the outbreak of war," and the witness said, "That's what I said," and
1 I can't find that anywhere in the transcript.
2 JUDGE KWON: I think that was the point of Mr. Karadzic's
4 Could you help us, Mr. Karadzic.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. In line 6, 62, it says:
6 "We did not find it in the transcript."
7 What I said was that it didn't make it into the transcript, and I
8 couldn't intervene, although I turned on my mike. That is what was not
9 recorded at the time when Mr. Djukanovic was talking about it.
10 Now, I made a mistake -- no, let's stay with this.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. What is this a meeting of, the entire Municipal Board, the
13 Presidency of the Municipal Assembly?
14 A. As far as I can see, these are the minutes of the Presidency of
15 the SDS Municipal Board in Bratunac. It was their meeting. It was a
16 smaller body, not the entire board.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have P6237, my mistake.
19 It's the same document, but then we need page 26.
20 JUDGE KWON: I think we saw pages 55 and 56, and 66.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Precisely. Apologies. In the
22 transcript it's page 26, line 12, where it is stated that it was the
23 Municipal Assembly, and it was not the Municipal Assembly but the
24 Presidency of the party.
25 In any case, can we have the page where it is mentioned that the
1 Crisis Staff was being formed, which is ERN number 021927 -- aha, the
2 Serb version 9, the English 8. Yes. To the right, please. Not left,
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. At this session of the 25th of October, 1991, when you
6 established the party Crisis Staff, did you establish it as per that or
7 a -- an instruction of the 23rd of December or any kind of instruction of
8 the Main Board?
9 A. No. It was at our own initiative that we established it,
10 Mr. President. When I say "at our own initiative," it may sound serious,
11 but it was dictated by the situation because we were forced to gather and
12 decide what to do. By the time different kinds of things started taking
13 place such as the killings I have mentioned in my statement, there were
14 all sorts of things. There was a rally at midnight, for example. People
15 would set up demonstrations in Bratunac saying, "This is Bosnia, Serbs go
16 to Serbia," and some such things. Our women took our children and fled
17 across the Drina. These were difficult times, misfortunate times, but
18 the staff was established and became operational officially when the real
19 crisis broke out, which is what you said a moment ago did not make it
20 into the transcript. By that time the paramilitaries had arrived and the
21 war was underway.
22 Q. Thank you. In this document that was admitted, we can see you
23 were a member. Can you tell us -- on page 17 you were asked about
24 suspension. Were you the only one or were there more people who were
1 A. Together with me, I was one of 59 of those who were suspended.
2 We were thrown out of the Main Board and People's Assembly. At the
3 moment I was a deputy of the People's Assembly. And I was driven away
4 from our work posts. It lasted all the way until 2011 when the sanctions
5 were stopped by the current High Representative.
6 I apologise, Mr. President, to go off on a tangent in explaining
7 my answer, but given the fact that we were sanctioned by the OHR, I think
8 it was a body of the world government -- of the Security Council of the
9 UN, we expected to receive some kind of satisfaction from our state or
10 from those who sanctioned us unjustly, but nothing of it followed. And
11 even to date, since 2004, I have been in the same situation without work,
12 as if I am still under this sanction, as if I were still supporting you
13 back there as it was stated in that document.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 65 ter 24810, which is
16 a decision by Lord Ashdown. Page 3.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Did you receive the text of his decision and an explanation?
19 A. That decision was delivered to me. There was an accompanying
20 letter as well. He personally addressed each and every one of us, and
21 there was another piece of paper that we received in which he says that
22 he had to do what he did. He says in that that we were a member of a
23 support network. We were portrayed as some sort of al-Qaeda. I don't
24 know what the charges were against us exactly, but none of them were
25 true, but there was no reference to anything that happened during the
1 war. It was just you.
2 Q. You anticipated my next question. After the Dayton Accords, were
3 you certified to participate in the elections and in the public political
5 A. Yes, I was a candidate in the elections. I was elected an MP. I
6 was a member of the Municipal Council. I was engaged in politics. I
7 worked in the administration, and for a while I was the CO of an
8 administrative organisation. I was engaged in sales in the public
9 sector. However, after all those bans, all those rights were abolished,
10 and what I personally knew and what I could do well was administration.
11 I had spent a lot of time working in administration. I had a lot of
12 experience. I was even deprived of that. And not only me but many of
13 the other people who still had the same status as they had when
14 Lord Ashdown made his decision.
15 Q. Thank you. Allow me to read this in English. It will be
16 translated to you in Serbian. Paragraph 4:
17 [In English] "For over a decade and throughout the war, the SDS
18 has held the reins of political power in Republika Srpska. The entity's
19 failure to apprehend those indicted individuals in flagrant disregard of
20 Bosnia and Herzegovina's obligations under international law is,
21 therefore, a damning indictment of SDS's commitment to proper governance.
22 Given its dubious legacy as the political party founded by and initially
23 presided over by the chief ICTY indictee at large, Radovan Karadzic, it
24 was doubly incumbent upon SDS to effect expiation and rehabilitation by
25 proactively pursuing and bringing to book the erstwhile architects of its
1 dubious -- odious policies which so disfigured the polity. That it has
2 not done so is a testament, at best, to its negligent abdication of
3 governmental responsibility or, at worst, to its concerted will to
4 obstruct peace implementation by clinging to vestiges (and figures) of
5 its bankrupt past."
6 [Interpretation] How did you understand this pearl of
7 international justice and law? Did you receive that among the documents
8 that you were provided with?
9 A. Yes. This was part of the decision. What remains is just
10 bitterness, as one would popularly say. I don't know what to say to
11 that, how to react. We never obstructed the peace accords. We were not
12 members of any support network. These words are wrong, and the way
13 Lord Ashdown portrayed us, this is just wrong. However, he was the main
14 interpreter of the Dayton Accords, and pursuant to the Bonn competencies
15 that do not arise from the Dayton Accords, he was given some rights - I
16 don't know who gave those rights to him - but he was entitled to punish
17 us and remove us from the public life, to humiliate us before ourselves
18 and before others. He took away our jobs, friends, and everything else.
19 We want to take him to court in his country. We will try to find funds,
20 although our situation is very dire, but from now on, this is going to be
21 our main mission, to arrive at the truth and to find justice for
23 Q. Thank you. And just one more question. On page 37, you were
24 talking about a meeting, a meeting that took place on the
25 18th of October. Did Mr. Deronjic mention a meeting, or did he show you
1 a telegram or some other document, or did he just verbally convey to you
2 what he had brought from the Main Board?
3 A. Mr. President, I already told you that I never received anything
4 from you, either verbally or in writing. On that occasion I did not
5 receive anything in writing either. Whatever is in the minutes, I
6 already told you that I would attribute that to the agreement that he
7 reached with the Prosecutor.
8 To be honest, I'm not clear on anything in these minutes.
9 Perhaps Deronjic just came up with it -- with that on top of his head.
10 Maybe I don't have the right to say that, Mr. President. However, I
11 cannot establish any links with that meeting and the minutes.
12 And as for anything in writing and especially if we are talking
13 about the A and B plan, I didn't know anything about that. I didn't see
14 anything in writing. And the same goes for this Lukavac thing that
15 Ms. Prosecutor showed me. I really didn't see anything of that kind
16 arriving in Bratunac municipality.
17 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Djukanovic, for having been a very
18 good executive power. I am sorry for all your suffering. Unfortunately,
19 I couldn't help you. And you are right as rain and still you suffered.
20 Thank you for having testified here.
21 A. Mr. President, I would like to say good-bye to you and everybody
22 else. And if I may add another sentence. I claim that I have told only
23 the truth and that the diaries and all the other things are wrong. At
24 one moment I felt like I had been accused here, especially based on the
25 words that were used against me which were not only ugly but really
1 pathetic and sad. So much from me.
2 JUDGE KWON: Very well. That concludes your evidence. Thank you
3 for your coming to The Hague to give it. Now you are free to go,
4 Mr. Djukanovic.
5 Given the time we'll take a break now.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.
7 JUDGE KWON: We'll resume at 1.15.
8 [The witness withdrew]
9 --- Recess taken at 12.28 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 1.16 p.m.
11 [The witness entered court]
12 JUDGE KWON: Would the witness make the solemn declaration.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I? I solemnly declare that I
14 will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Micic. Please be seated and make
16 yourself comfortable.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 WITNESS: DUSAN MICIC
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 JUDGE KWON: Before you commence your evidence, Mr. Micic, I must
21 draw your attention to a certain Rule that we have here at the
22 International Tribunal, that is, Rule 90(E) of Rules of Procedure and
23 Evidence. Under this Rule, you may object to answering any question from
24 Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecution, or even from the Judges if you believe
25 that your answer might incriminate you in a criminal offence. In this
1 context, "incriminate" means saying something that would amount to an
2 admission of guilt for a criminal offence or saying something that might
3 provide evidence that you might have committed a criminal offence.
4 However, should you think that an answer might incriminate you and as a
5 consequence you refuse to answer the question, I must let you know that
6 the Tribunal has the power to compel you to answer the question, but in
7 that situation, the Tribunal would ensure that your testimony compelled
8 in such circumstances would not be used in any case that might be laid
9 against you save and except the offence of giving false testimony.
10 Do you understand what I have just told you, Mr. Micic?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand.
12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
13 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
16 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Micic.
17 A. Good afternoon, Mr. President.
18 Q. I have two requests upon you. The first one is to make a long
19 pause between my question and your answer, and the second is to speak
20 slowly, approximately at this rate, although I cannot be a role model,
21 because I often speak very fast. Please bear these two things in mind.
22 If you're looking at the transcript in front of you, when the
23 cursor stops and a capital letter A appears on the screen, that's your
24 cue for starting answering.
25 Did you provide my Defence team a statement?
1 A. Yes, I did.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D7972 in
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. On the screen before you, do you see that statement of yours?
6 A. Yes, but can it be zoomed in a little, please?
7 Q. Is this the statement that you provided?
8 A. Yes, this is the statement that I provided.
9 Q. Thank you. Did you read the statement, and did you also sign it?
10 A. Yes, I did.
11 Q. This is still too fast. Please make a longer pause.
12 Is this your signature, sir?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you. Is this statement a true reflection of what you said
15 to my Defence team?
16 A. I believe so.
17 Q. If I were to put the same questions to you today, would your
18 answers be the same?
19 A. Yes. I believe that in essence they would be the same.
20 Q. Do you have a hard copy of your statement in front of you?
21 A. You mean on paper?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. No, I don't have it.
24 Q. We will ask the Trial Chamber to be provided with a hard copy
25 that you will be able to peruse if some paragraphs from it are mentioned
1 in any of the questions.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I would like to
3 tender this statement into evidence.
4 JUDGE KWON: Any objection, Ms. Edgerton?
5 MS. EDGERTON: No.
6 JUDGE KWON: We'll admit it.
7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D3196, Your Honours.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no questions for this
9 witness at this moment. My examination-in-chief is thus over.
10 [In English] Ah, sorry, sorry. I forgot to read summary.
11 [Interpretation] I'm now going to read a short summary of
12 Mr. Dusan Micic's statement in English.
13 [In English] Dusan Micic was born on 10th of March, 1960, in
14 Slapasnica, Bratunac municipality. He was a military policeman in the
15 Bratunac Territorial Defence from May 1992 to March 1993. Then he was
16 the commander of the 3rd Platoon of the 1st Company of PJP, police
18 The military police was located in the old Vuk Karadzic primary
19 school. One day when Mr. Dusan Micic passed by the school, he saw some
20 soldiers whom he did not know taking people in and out of the school. He
21 did not interfere, because they were in the JNA uniforms. He did not see
22 anyone beating those people or that they were injured. His commander
23 warned them on one -- or that no one should go to that school, otherwise
24 would be dismissed from the police immediately.
25 Another day Dusan Micic and his colleague were ordered to escort
1 two buses of Muslims to Luke near Kladanj. They arrived at Luke until
2 they reached the Muslim line and a check-point without soldiers. The
3 people got off the bus -- buses and continued by foot. They stayed until
4 those people left. Two days later, he heard that all the Muslims were
5 driven away from the school to Pale one night. His police had nothing to
6 do with that school while those Muslims were there.
7 In July 1995, he and his unit gathered and were told that there
8 was a large number of Muslims from Srebrenica in Potocari, and they were
9 assigned to search the terrain from Zuti Most towards Potocari. He saw a
10 crowd gathered in front of the factory, and when he passed by the crowd,
11 he saw General Mladic giving food to the people. While in Potocari,
12 neither Dusan Micic nor any of his men noticed that anyone was singled
13 out from the crowd, beaten, or killed.
14 One night in Sandici locality he heard shooting from the woods.
15 When he woke up, he was informed that the Muslims had attacked and some
16 of his men were wounded or seriously injured.
17 On 12th of July, 1995, in Sandici, buses with Muslims, probably
18 from Potocari, starting passing by. Dusan Micic did not remember if the
19 buses were also passing on 13th of July, but probably not. That day, he
20 went back to Bratunac. On his way, he saw a group of 50 to 60 Muslims on
21 the pass in Sandici. When he passed by his colleagues -- passed by, his
22 colleagues had told him that these people left the woods where the
23 shooting came from and that they had surrendered. Those people were
24 guarded by several soldiers who were unfamiliar to him. He did not know
25 if they were policemen or from the army. Later in Bratunac, he saw buses
1 and lorries with Muslims were passing through a side street where the
2 Muslims had spent the night, towards Konjevic Polje.
3 Regarding the killing of Muslims in Bratunac that night,
4 Dusan Micic was not aware of anything at that time. He learned about it
5 later but did not know how many were killed or who killed them.
6 With regard to the incident in Kravica on 13th of July, 1995, he
7 only learned about it later when the suspects were arrested. He did not
8 know where the bodies were buried.
9 And that is short summary. I do not questions for this witness
10 for a moment.
11 JUDGE KWON: Although the summary does not form part the
12 witness's evidence, I have a question about it. You read, page 72, lines
13 20 to 23:
14 "The military police was located in the old Vuk Karadzic primary
15 school. One day when Mr. Dusan Micic passed by the school, he saw some
17 Are you referring to the same school building? You can clarify
18 with the witness.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm going to ask the witness.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. How many schools were there? Was that the same school, and what
22 was the situation with the buildings?
23 A. That was an old school that was disused. It was located not far
24 away from the school where the Muslims were, maybe 100 or 150 metres, but
25 it hadn't been used for at least ten years previously.
1 Q. The one that you're talking about where the police was ceased to
2 be a school ten years before the war; is that correct?
3 A. Yes, most probably.
4 Q. But there is another school where the Muslims were?
5 A. Well, that was one 100 or 150 metres from that school.
6 Q. Thank you. Is a hangar part of it or is that a third facility?
7 A. That's a third facility located behind the school and behind the
9 Q. The old or the new one?
10 A. The new school, new school.
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
12 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry, Your Honours. Sorry, Mr. Karadzic. I
13 don't mean to interrupt, but if Mr. Karadzic likes, we could find the
14 aerial of Bratunac which shows the old school and the various buildings.
15 Up to him and the Chamber.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm satisfied with this, but it's
17 up to the Prosecution to call the footage up.
18 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Let's leave it at that.
19 Mr. Micic, as you have noted, your evidence in chief in this case
20 has been admitted in writing, that is, through your written statement in
21 lieu of your oral testimony. Now you'll be cross-examined by the
22 representative of the Office of the Prosecutor.
23 Ms. Edgerton.
24 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
25 Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:
1 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Micic.
2 A. Good afternoon.
3 Q. I want to start by just asking you one thing about the PJP and
4 your company. Your company, as you said in your statement to
5 Dr. Karadzic's Defence counsel, was the first of the number of PJP
6 companies in the Zvornik CJB. Now, the 1st Company is actually the elite
7 company of the PJP, isn't it? You're kind of like their strike force?
8 A. Well, you could say that.
9 Q. Okay. Just -- now, His Honour Judge Kwon asked you about
10 something that wasn't in your statement, and I want to ask you about
11 something else that I didn't see in your Defence statement. Tell me if
12 this is correct: In July 1995, you were guarding the prisoners when they
13 were brought to the Vuk Karadzic school in Bratunac, weren't you?
14 A. No, you're not right.
15 Q. Well, now I'm puzzled about that for a couple of reasons. First
16 of all, we got that information from the Defence. They have an
17 obligation to tell us an outline in advance of what you're going to say,
18 and on 26 February 2013, they gave us that outline. And it says here of
20 "He also participated in guarding the prisoners in July 1995 when
21 they were brought to the Vuk Karadzic school in Bratunac."
22 So where does that come from?
23 A. I have no idea about that statement, and I can guarantee to you
24 and to this Court that I was never there at the time. It's a mistake. I
25 couldn't have been there at the time, because I was busy elsewhere with
1 other business.
2 Q. But they must have got that from somewhere. Are you saying they
3 made it up?
4 A. Well, I don't know if they made that up. Anyway, it was
5 impossible for me to be in or outside the school in 1995 when I had other
6 commitments and duties, and I never did the guard duty.
7 Q. [Microphone not activated] Well, let's go through -- let's go
8 through --
9 JUDGE KWON: Microphone.
10 MS. EDGERTON: Pardon me.
11 Q. Let's go through the summary of what your evidence was expected
12 to be, and you tell me what's correct in there, all right? The first
13 sentence says you're a military policeman in the Bratunac Territorial
14 Defence during 1992. Is that correct?
15 A. Yes, that is correct.
16 Q. You were a security guard in the Vuk Karadzic elementary school.
17 Is that correct?
18 A. No, it's not correct.
19 Q. You will testify that paramilitaries were involved in the
20 incident and not members of the TO. Is that correct?
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 Q. On 12 July 1995, your platoon was in the area of Potocari and
23 Kravica. Correct or not?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. And as Dr. Karadzic says in your summary, you will testify that
1 there were no killings in Potocari while your platoon was there.
3 A. Absolutely correct.
4 Q. And your unit was not involved in the Kravica incident.
5 A. What do you mean the Kravica incident? I don't know what you
6 have in mind. Which incident?
7 Q. I'm reading you the summary of your evidence. Is there an
8 incident in Kravica you were involved in?
9 A. My unit was not involved in any incident in Kravica that took
10 place there.
11 Q. And the last sentence that we've already talked about, you also
12 participated -- it says:
13 "He also participated in guarding the prisoners in July 1995 when
14 they were brought to the Vuk Karadzic school in Bratunac."
15 And you've said that that's not correct.
16 THE ACCUSED: May I have reference, please.
17 MS. EDGERTON: The reference is the 65 ter filing of 26 February
18 19 -- pardon me, 2013.
19 THE ACCUSED: But --
20 MS. EDGERTON: Now, let's move on.
21 THE ACCUSED: But there is a more fresh summary, 92 ter.
22 JUDGE KWON: But she's asking the witness about the summary she
23 got. Probably you may clarify how come that sentence got into the
24 summary, but otherwise your intervention is not appropriate,
25 Mr. Karadzic.
1 MS. EDGERTON:
2 Q. [Microphone not activated] So there's two things --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
4 MS. EDGERTON: Sorry, that might be my voice or the way I'm
6 Q. There's two things in your -- in this summary that you say are
7 not accurate, and I want to go into one of those a little bit more and
8 that's what happened in 1995.
9 You must, since you've talked about 1995 in your statement,
10 remember Danilo Zoljic. He was the commander of the Zvornik PJPs;
12 A. Yes, I remember well.
13 Q. Are you still in contact with him?
14 A. Not at the moment. There's no need for that. I don't think that
15 he still works for the police.
16 Q. Now, he gave a statement to authorities in Bosnia and Herzegovina
17 in 2005, and perhaps we could have a look at that. 65 ter number 24857.
18 And that's about the same subjects that you talked about in your Defence
19 statement and your interrogation in 2008.
20 So Mr. Zoljic to security authorities in Bijeljina in 2005 --
21 MS. EDGERTON: And perhaps we could go over to English page 5 and
22 B/C/S page 3, at the very bottom of page 3.
23 Q. So Mr. Zoljic, in 2005, talked about what the Zvornik PJPs were
24 doing in July of 1995 as well, and he says halfway through page 5 in
25 English and from the very bottom of page 3 in B/C/S and to the top of
1 page 4, he says:
2 "I also remember that there were cases involving the capture of
3 their Muslim soldiers as well as male civilians who were then transported
4 onto Bratunac by coach."
5 He said:
6 "I can't vouch for the exact date, but I think that it was during
7 the night of 14 July 1995 when the 1st Company," that's your company,
8 "and the Sekovici 2nd Detachment were pulled out of the line and deployed
9 to the security detail for coaches transporting the prisoners and the
10 security detail for the school in Bratunac."
11 So Mr. Zoljic says that your company was doing exactly what is in
12 your 65 ter summary, what the Defence towed us your evidence would be,
13 isn't he? He says your company was involved in guarding captured
14 soldiers and civilians in Bratunac. Isn't that correct?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page in
16 Serbian, please.
17 MS. EDGERTON: Top of page -- top of page 4. So go to the next
18 page in Serbian, very top.
19 JUDGE KWON: Could you tell me the part in English? Where do we
20 have it?
21 MS. EDGERTON: That's not the correct page. If you could indulge
22 me for a moment, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE KWON: It's page 4, yes. Previous.
24 MS. EDGERTON: My apologies. Thank you.
25 Q. So I wonder if you could answer the question. Why does the
1 commander of the Zvornik PJPs say that your company was guarding the
2 prisoners in Bratunac? Which is exactly what we were told your evidence
3 is going to be.
4 A. I can say that this was his personal view. I was a member of the
5 company, but my platoon and not all of it was involved. Only members of
6 the Bratunac police station on the morning of the 13th were withdrawn
7 from Konjevic Polje and Sandici to Bratunac in connection with the
8 killing of Zeljko Ninkovic, a police officer from our police station.
9 These are the men I'm talking about. As for the rest of my company,
10 where they were deployed, I don't know.
11 Q. You're a platoon commander and you don't know where the rest of
12 your company was deployed?
13 A. Yes, yes. They remained behind when I left Konjevic Polje. They
14 remained in Sandici where this tragedy happened, the killing of our
15 colleague. And after that I didn't need to know about that. There were
16 people higher up the chain who were supposed know about that.
17 Q. Something else that puzzles me about Zoljic's statement. He
18 continues on this page, saying:
19 "Captured soldiers and able-bodied civilians," and that's at the
20 bottom of the page in English in front of us.
21 "Captured soldiers and able-bodied civilians, there were around
22 2.500 to 3.000 of them were transported to Zvornik under our escort," so
23 PJP escort, "and handed over and placed under the jurisdiction of the
24 Zvornik Brigade."
25 So that's something else that your units were involved in, and
1 that's not in your statement either, is it?
2 A. Well, I can give you a similar answer. I don't know on which day
3 did they participate in the escort to Zvornik.
4 Q. Which company?
5 A. Can you tell me the date and the day when the company was
6 involved in escorting the captured Muslims to Zvornik? That's what I
8 Q. Were there so many convoys of Muslims being escorted to Zvornik
9 that you need additional information to determine when it might have
11 A. No, no, no. I want to know the date so that I can tell you where
12 I was when that was going on and only then can I give you an answer. Was
13 that the 13th and the 14th?
14 Q. It was the 13th -- it was the 13th at night, and the 14th during
15 the day, when you said actually you had been to Bratunac where thousands
16 of prisoners were already locked down in facilities in the town.
17 A. May I answer? I don't know the number, whether there were
18 thousands of them. On the 13th, I and members of the Bratunac police
19 station left Sandici and we went to prepare the funeral of our colleague,
20 and I was engaged with that the whole day. In Orthodoxy it takes a lot
21 to prepare a funeral. You need to prepare food and drink. And he was a
22 refugee from Zenica and he was a poor person. So I didn't know what was
23 going on. And I'm talking only about members of the Bratunac police
24 station. I don't know about others. And the same applies to the 14th.
25 The funeral took place on the 14th. We spent the whole day at the
1 deceased's house, and we buried him eventually. So I never even passed
2 through that area on that day.
3 And as for what Danilo Zoljic is talking about, it's his problem.
4 I don't know. I never saw those men on the 13th and the 14th, members of
5 my unit.
6 Q. There's something else that actually doesn't add up, to my mind,
7 from some of the statements you've previously given. Now, in your
8 statement to Dr. Karadzic's Defence, you referred to your interrogation
9 by the Bosnia-Herzegovina prosecutor's office in 2008, and we can have a
10 look at that to refresh your memory. It's 65 ter number 24855.
11 You recognise the statement you gave in 2008?
12 A. Yes, yes.
13 MS. EDGERTON: Let's go over to page 6, I think in both
14 languages, paragraph 6.
15 Q. And this is about your duties on the 12th of July in Potocari.
16 And you're --
17 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, indulge me, please, again for a
18 moment with respect to the English language pages. Page 9 in English.
19 Q. Now, you said, with respect to your duties on the 12th of July,
20 that Commander Pantic explained to you that you were searching the
21 terrain on the right side of the road in order to take over that terrain
22 to prevent the paramilitary formations on the side of the Serb forces
23 from attacking the Muslim population gathered in Potocari. Is that true?
24 Is it your evidence that you were searching for Serb paramilitary forces?
25 A. We were not searching. We were scouring the terrain in order to
1 ensure security for the Muslims gathered there, to prevent any incident
2 or attacks on them. That's why we were searching the area.
3 Q. By who? Incidents or attacks by who?
4 A. Possibly by Serbs.
5 Q. So let me get this straight. On the 12th of July, PJP units --
6 12th of July, 1995, PJP units, VRS units, in large numbers, units from
7 Jahorina and others descend on Potocari to surround Potocari and to take
8 control of Potocari, and your evidence is that your task is to protect
9 the Muslims and secure them from attack by Serb forces?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have the reference to
11 take control of Potocari. Where can we find this? Line 8.
12 MS. EDGERTON: Do Your Honours want me to list the names of the
13 DutchBat soldiers who came to testify in these proceedings about this
14 incident? I don't know what Dr. Karadzic is asking for here.
15 JUDGE MORRISON: It might be easier -- I noticed that the witness
16 was almost about to answer your question, so it might be easier if he
17 does that.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.
19 MS. EDGERTON:
20 Q. Do you want me to repeat the question?
21 A. I'll try to answer. The units you cited, some from Sarajevo and
22 from elsewhere, at the time I was up there with my unit, there was --
23 there were no such units there. I didn't see a single one for as long as
24 I was there with my unit. I don't know what happened after I left. I
25 was there for two or three hours with my unit, and then we withdrew to
2 Q. My question was about your task. You stand by your assertion in
3 2008 that your task was to protect the Muslims and secure them from
4 attack by Serb forces?
5 A. Yes. I stand by it even now. I'm very proud of it. We were
6 successful in doing that. During my unit's stay up there, there was not
7 a single incident.
8 Q. I want to show you another document from somebody else that you
9 would know from that time. It's Dragomir Vasic. Now, he was the chief
10 of the Zvornik CJB, wasn't he?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So he's your boss.
13 A. He was the head of the centre, yes.
14 Q. All right. I'm going to show you what he said your job was.
15 MS. EDGERTON: Could we have a look at P2996, please. And it's a
16 report to the minister of the interior from Vasic. On 12 July 1992. And
17 you're going to have to magnify the Serbian version. Thank you.
18 Q. So have a look at this document, line 6. Dragomir Vasic, your
19 chief, talks about joint police forces advancing on Potocari with the aim
20 of taking UNPROFOR personnel prisoner, surrounding the entire civilian
21 population, and cleaning the terrain of enemy groups.
22 So your boss says that your job was something completely
23 different from what you say it was. Isn't that so?
24 A. Mr. Vasic was my boss, but my boss at the time was
25 Radomir Pantic, and I received my tasks from him. I didn't see Vasic at
1 all that day.
2 Q. So are you saying that Vasic -- Vasic isn't telling the truth
3 when he writes this document?
4 A. It's not what I'm saying. I am simply don't want to get involved
5 in this. He was my chief, and it's up to him what he wants to write
6 down. I'm only telling you about where I was and what I did together
7 with my unit. I received my tasks from Radomir Pantic directly and not
8 from Vasic. I received orders from him.
9 Q. All right. Let's go back to your statement in 2008, 65 ter
10 number 24855. And let's go over to paragraph 11. And that's at pages 11
11 of the English translation and 11 of the B/C/S, I hope.
12 In -- in this statement that you gave in 2008, you talked about
13 your unit's deployment to Sandici on the evening of the 12th, and there
14 you stated that Pantic, who you've just talked about, told you that at
15 Sandici you can't allow anyone to stop the vehicles with the civilians
16 coming from Potocari and that you had to provide those vehicles pass
17 undisturbed. And then further in that same document you said:
18 "I haven't had information on the evening of 12 July that male
19 Muslims, armed soldiers, were moving through the forest."
20 So was that true when you said that in 2008?
21 A. I don't know when. It depends when I learned of it. I don't
22 recall it. When could I have learned that they could go through the
24 Q. It's your statement, so these are your words. One would think
25 you would know.
1 My question to you was: Is this true, what I just read to you
2 from your statement in 2008?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we at least have the entire
4 sentence read out, if not the passage, the sentence to the end.
5 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Did you find the sentence, Mr. Micic,
6 and read it?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just a moment.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In the middle, Sekovici, and then
9 further in the text.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "That evening I noticed a single
12 Is that it, Mr. President?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] "The next evening."
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "I noticed the crew, and later I
15 learned that the tank" --
16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We do not understand the
18 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Just a second. Why don't we give it
19 another try. Could you let the witness know the sentence. Where is it,
20 Ms. Edgerton, in the B/C/S?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness found it, but he was
22 reading fast.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll do it slowly.
24 JUDGE KWON: You don't have to read out. Read it and then answer
25 the question. Let us know when your reading is done, Mr. Micic.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Only the part pertaining to the
3 forest. The rest you don't need to read, sir.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do I need to read it out or do you
5 want me to respond?
6 JUDGE KWON: No, that's fine --
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Read it to yourself and then
9 JUDGE KWON: And what was your question, Ms. Edgerton?
10 MS. EDGERTON:
11 Q. My question was whether what he said about the orders from
12 Commander Pantic was true.
13 A. Yes, it is true. It's just that in the evening upon arrival I
14 had no information. During the night and later, I learned more. I
15 learned that during the night there was some movement of units, but in
16 the evening when we were deployed along the line and the road we had no
17 information. At least I didn't. That's what he conveyed to me. During
18 the night we already received some information. We were there the whole
19 night, from dusk 'til dawn.
20 Q. And the information that you received was that a column of
21 thousands of Bosnian Muslim boys and men was trying to escape from
22 Srebrenica, and your task was to block them, and capture them, and
23 eliminate them. That's what you were doing at Sandici. Wasn't that your
24 job? Yes or no?
25 A. Well, that was never a task. One cannot discuss it at all. If
1 we had done that we would have, but what else? What about those we
2 escorted and secured?
3 Q. Well, let's look at another document from your boss, Vasic. It's
4 P4937. 4937.
5 So this is another document from your boss on the 12th of July,
6 1995, to the minister of the interior, where he says 8.000 men, about
7 1500 of whom are armed, are in the Konjevic Polje and Sandici sector, and
8 the Sekovici Special Detachment and the 1st Company of the PJP, that's
9 your company, are blocking this section with the goal of destroying these
11 So here's another document where Vasic says your job is something
12 other than what you say it is. So is Vasic lying?
13 A. I can't say that he's lying, but I can't get involved in what
14 Vasic stated. It's up to him how he viewed the situation. My view was
15 different, and it was in light of what we were doing in the field. And
16 it was proven that in the field where my unit was there were no killings.
17 [In English] Yes.
18 Q. Now, I find it interesting that you don't want to get involved in
19 it, because in fact, Mr. Micic, everybody knew what was going on at
20 Sandici, and, for example, Dr. Karadzic himself received a report from
21 General Miletic on 12 July 1995 - and the reference is P3054 - about
22 events in the area. Dr. Karadzic even read or even received information
23 that said during the day, Potocari was liberated, Serb forces continued
24 to advance in order to liberate all the settlements in the Srebrenica
25 enclave, part of our units and MUP units have organised ambushes in order
1 to break out from the enclave towards Tuzla. So it's not only the chief
2 of the CJB but the VRS Main Staff was reporting up to Karadzic what was
3 going on, and your evidence is your unit had nothing to do there. You
4 slept through it effectively is what you said in your statement; correct?
5 A. Yes, yes. I was tired that night. When I was in the field, I
6 deployed my men, established communication and withdrew some 30 to
7 50 metres away from them, and I fell asleep. I was asleep when the
8 shooting occurred.
9 Q. So you slept through. You heard no shots. You saw no Muslims
10 being surrendered -- surrendering. You saw no Muslims being captured the
11 whole time you were on the line at Sandici. Is that your evidence?
12 A. I assert -- well, I haven't slept through it, but I've slept from
13 perhaps 10 to 15 minutes. But at the time during the night, no Muslims
14 were surrendering on the 13th in the morning. That is to say, the night
15 between the 12th and the 13th. There -- people were not surrendering
16 that night while I was there.
17 On the 13th, in agreement with my commanders, I went to Bratunac
18 to inquire about the situation with my colleague. They told me to go to
19 the base, and then I would be informed. When I arrived in Bratunac, when
20 I entered the police station, they told me that Zeljko Ninkovic had died.
21 I immediately went to see the chief --
22 Q. Sorry, Zeljko Ninkovic was also a member of the 1st Company of
23 the PJP, wasn't he?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Because you didn't say that in your statement. Because you
1 didn't say that in your statement either.
2 A. Yes, yes. I didn't? Well, no one asked me.
3 Q. Mr. Micic, by the 13th of July, Serb forces had captured or
4 received around 1.500 Muslim soldiers who were making their way through
5 the very meadow where your unit, your company, and your platoon was
6 situated, and your evidence is it didn't happen while you were there?
7 A. Yes. If you allowed me, I will tell you where I was.
8 Q. Well, you've said that, actually, in your statement, and you've
9 just repeated your evidence. You said you were at Bratunac arranging the
10 funeral of your colleague who died in combat --
11 A. Funeral.
12 Q. Who died in combat; correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Even though you heard no shots, saw no Muslims surrendering,
15 captured no one, your colleague died in combat.
16 A. My colleague was killed during the night, and one couldn't see
17 that. I heard shooting. I can't say I didn't. I was woken up by it.
18 They were transferred to Bratunac during the night. I was still not at
19 that place when I learned about it. I called in to see what was going
20 on, and from the Bratunac station they told me to go to the base and that
21 they would tell me then so as not to speak about that over the radio.
22 The next morning I went to Bratunac immediately. I spent some two hours
23 there with the chief - it was Jusupovic at the time - and he told me that
24 he would intervene with my commander, Radomir Pantic, for me to return
25 again to Sandici to inform the men to be withdrawn to Bratunac to prepare
1 for the funeral, which is what I did. So during the night there were no
2 surrenderings and we didn't see any Muslims.
3 When I arrived in the morning, when I returned on the 13th after
4 I had gone to Bratunac, in the meantime, as my people were withdrawing,
5 around a dozen of us, I noticed going from Bratunac to the right, I saw
6 some 50, 60, or a hundred metres away some Muslim civilians, some 50 of
8 Q. Now, you're repeating the evidence in your statement, but you
9 actually took us a little bit ahead in time to the 13th, and you said you
10 went back to Sandici on the 13th. Now, to get back to Sandici, you
11 actually have to -- from Bratunac you have to drive past the Kravica
12 warehouse, don't you?
13 A. Yes, I had to.
14 Q. By the 13th, the killings in the Kravica warehouse had already
15 begun. You were driving by, and you saw nothing. Is that your evidence?
16 A. I assert that because -- you need to tell me what time. When I
17 went to Bratunac and returned, it was 10 to 15 minutes, and nothing was
18 going on during that time. What time do you mean specifically, what
20 Q. What time did you go to Sandici from Bratunac? What time did you
21 return to your men?
22 A. Well, as soon as it dawned, I went to Bratunac. So 5.00 or 6.00
23 in the morning, perhaps. I told you, I spent two to three hours there.
24 I can't remember exactly off-the-cuff.
25 Q. So what time did you go back to Sandici to brief your men? On
1 the 13th, what time were you travelling to Sandici?
2 A. You mean when I returned to Bratunac?
3 Q. Yes.
4 A. As soon as I arrived. I don't know exactly, but in the morning.
5 Before noon, that's when I returned to Bratunac. There was nothing going
6 on at the time, nothing of the sort you are talking about. I didn't see
7 or hear anything.
8 Q. I want to know -- we must be losing something, because I want to
9 know what time you went from Bratunac back to Sandici. You went --
10 you've given evidence that you went to Sandici on the 13th. You went
11 back to Sandici on the 13th. What time did you get there?
12 A. You don't understand me, or I don't know. On the 13th in the
13 morning I went to Bratunac. Let me put it this way. In the morning,
14 5.00, 6.00, a.m., I returned from Bratunac perhaps -- I can't remember
15 exactly, but in the morning, say, two hours later, to Sandici to inform
16 my men to go so that they would go back to Bratunac.
17 Q. So when you got to talk to your men at Sandici, you must have
18 received information from them. Your men must have briefed you about the
19 Muslims who they had captured and collected overnight.
20 A. My men did not receive anyone, and they could not have informed
21 me when they were unaware of it. From my place, Kravica, where I was
22 deployed with my unit, there is at least 1.5 kilometres to 2 kilometres
23 to there. That's the distance. And there's one bend after another, and
24 you can't see from one end to the other.
25 Q. I see. We'll move on to another area. Actually, we'll go back
1 in time to Potocari. Now, in your statement -- pardon me. In your
2 statement, you said that after Zeljko's funeral you worked at the station
3 for a day or two, and you don't remember how long before you got sent out
4 again. Do you remember that?
5 A. Yes, I remember it. I don't remember what date exactly, the 16th
6 or the 17th, but in any case, for a day or two we worked and then I
7 received other orders.
8 Q. So the strike force was hanging around Bratunac until you got
9 other orders. You don't remember what you were doing?
10 A. What I was doing while I was in Bratunac?
11 Q. All right.
12 A. Well, regular police tasks for day or two.
13 Q. All right. Let's have a look -- I want to ask you something
14 relating to that time period, but to do that we have to go back in time.
15 Let's have a look at P4202.
16 A. Most probably I also rested. Perhaps I rested. I don't know
17 what I did for the day or two. I rested most likely.
18 Q. Well, all right. Maybe this is going to help refresh your memory
19 about what you did for a day or two. P4202 is -- at page 71, now, is a
20 still from a video-clip, and it's a video-clip of you along with your
21 forces, people you worked with entering Potocari from Bratunac on the
22 12th of July.
23 Now, the people, some of the people identified in this film, have
24 got numbers written on their -- posted on their backs. Number 1 is
25 Milan Milinkovic, who identified himself in this film clip, a member of
1 the 2nd Company -- 2nd Battalion, 1st Company of the Bratunac Brigade.
2 Number 2 is a fellow who was a member of your company, your subordinate,
3 in fact, isn't he? Dobro Stanojevic.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Number 3 -- number 3 has been identified as you. Number 4 is
6 Radenko Tomic, a member of Mauzer's Panthers from the East Bosnia Corps.
7 Now, that's you at Bratunac, and you know these other soldiers --
8 pardon me, at Potocari, and you know these other soldiers. You worked
9 with them. Correct?
10 A. Incorrect. I never co-operated with these soldiers. You
11 yourself said what units they came from, so we couldn't have co-operated.
12 Q. You're walking into Potocari in co-operation next to one another
13 with somebody else from your unit. Like I said initially, in a joint
15 A. No, no. Ninety per cent of the people in the still are my men,
16 but I don't know where the rest come from and how they happened to be
17 there. It's their problem. I never communicated with them. We did not
18 share any command and did not associate.
19 Q. Oh. Maybe --
20 JUDGE KWON: Just let us clarify the transcript. Line 6, did the
21 witness confirm that it was correct? Let us first confirm whether this
22 is the witness himself.
23 Mr. Micic, do you agree that number 3 is yourself?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can. I'm not a hundred
25 per cent sure, but I'd say that I'm 90 per cent sure that this is me.
1 It's not a problem at all. I said where I was.
2 MS. EDGERTON:
3 Q. It might help just to play a little bit of the video-clip that
4 this was taken from, Mr. Micic, so that you can --
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But, Your Excellencies, Judge Kwon
6 is right. The witness said that -- didn't say that this is correct. He
7 said it is not correct that he co-operated with those men.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes. That's noted. Let's proceed.
9 MS. EDGERTON: We're going to play --
10 JUDGE KWON: Does the witness have the Sanction as well?
11 MS. EDGERTON: We're going to play P4201, part 2, starting at
12 time-code number 16:45.
13 [Video-clip played]
14 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] What's up, man?
16 "They need to be told what they deserve.
17 "Just block it and that's it.
18 "Stay, stay.
19 "Pass the word up there.
21 "There, film that ... a trench ... there, up there.
23 "That hill?
24 "Hello, Goran, if you can't manage it then send those further up
1 "A trench?
2 "Let him film the elevation there.
3 "Where did you get the bullet-proof vest?
5 "Do you have the bullet-proof vest?
6 "Old man? I'm taking them down the hill, down there.
8 "May I?
9 "Come on, let's go. Let's go immediately.
10 "Shall I take them down the road.
11 "Now move along this way.
13 "Nobody will harm you.
14 "Don't be afraid ... come with me ... don't be afraid, nobody
15 will harm you. Don't be afraid.
16 "Come with me freely. Come on.
17 "Nobody will harm you, nobody will.
18 "Don't cry.
19 "We got separated. Please let us reunite.
20 "Don't be afraid.
21 "Why did you leave then?
22 "23 Omega.
23 "Don't wail. Nobody will harm you."
24 MS. EDGERTON: For the record, I'm stopping the film clip at
25 time-code 18:49.
1 Q. Now, having seen the film of yourself and forces around Potocari
2 on the 12th of July, perhaps we can go back to the figures that we looked
3 at in the photo.
4 MS. EDGERTON: P4202, please.
5 Q. Now, Milan Milinkovic, you knew him; correct?
6 A. Not well.
7 Q. He was --
8 A. Perhaps later. No, I didn't know him well. Just by sight.
9 Q. He's from Bratunac.
10 A. No. He is from Srebrenica.
11 Q. Dobroslav Stanojevic. You knew him; correct?
12 A. Yes, yes, I knew him. He's a member of my unit. He was my
13 subordinate. I was his superior.
14 Q. Radenko Tomic. You knew him; correct?
15 A. No, I did not know him. He was not a member of my unit.
16 Q. What was he doing with your unit on the 12th of July?
17 A. Perhaps he was just passing through. He did not have anything
18 whatsoever to do with my unit. We absolutely had nothing to do with him.
19 You're saying "forces" or "unit," but I can see not more than 20 men or
20 even less. What forces are we talking about? How can those be forces?
21 Q. Mr. Micic, Radenko Tomic, Gargija, he was seen at the
22 Branjevo farm killings, and you know that, don't you?
23 A. I haven't a clue. I know nothing about that.
24 MS. EDGERTON: And for the record, the evidence of that is from
25 Mr. Erdemovic at P332, transcript pages 10974 to 10977, and 10985 to
2 Q. Not only, Mr. Micic, was he seen at the Branjevo farm killings,
3 he was a shooter. You know that, don't you?
4 A. No. I know nothing about that. My unit was not at the place
5 that you mention.
6 Q. He came to Branjevo with a group of around 15 others from
7 Bratunac, and you actually know that, too, don't you, and that's why you
8 claim you had -- you didn't know Gargija now.
9 A. I've never heard this before. I've never heard that he went to
10 Zvornik with 15 men. I have a vague idea of him, but this is the first
11 time I hear from you that he went there. I can't talk about his
12 whereabouts, where he went, who he went with. My unit was not there. I
13 don't even know where Branjevo is. I haven't a faintest. I was never in
14 Branjevo. Never been there.
15 Q. That's the day when you say you actually don't know -- you don't
16 remember what you were doing with your unit, isn't it?
17 A. No, no, no. These are -- I keep on telling you that I don't know
18 Branjevo. I know that it is in Zvornik municipality. I repeat, my unit
19 was never there. I haven't a faintest where that is. I know where my
20 unit was on those days.
21 Q. Well, then what you were doing on the 16th of July, 1995?
22 A. On the 16th of July, I may have been engaged in the Zvornik
23 sector in a place called Baljkovac, but perhaps I was at home. I don't
24 know what date we're talking about. I've already told you that I don't
25 know when it was that I was engaged after that.
1 MS. EDGERTON: I have nothing further, Your Honours.
2 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President. Is it the Prosecution's
3 case in a Mr. Micic was at Branjevo farm participating in the executions?
4 JUDGE KWON: Are you prepared to answer the question,
5 Ms. Edgerton?
6 MS. EDGERTON: My colleague is.
7 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, other than what Ms. Edgerton went
8 through, nothing further. However, just that his statement he has
9 continually said that on the day he doesn't know what he was doing,
10 stories changed about where he was, and he was with at least one person
11 who was determined to be present and taking part, and that's our case.
12 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
13 Mr. Karadzic, do you have re-examination?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellency, and I hope I
15 may finish before the end of this session.
16 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
17 Q. [Interpretation] And while we're all looking at this image,
18 Mr. Micic, can you please tell me whether your unit was armed with Zoljas
19 and whether they sported bandannas or kerchiefs on their heads?
20 A. No, Mr. President, never.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 A. We were a regular unit. We did not hide from anybody. We did
23 what we did in an honest and honourable way.
24 Q. Let's clarify some things. Can you please tell us whether PJP
25 was your permanent job? Who were PJP members? What smaller units did it
1 consist of?
2 A. No, it was not a permanent position for any of us. We were
3 engaged in combat, and that's the name that we went under, PJP. When we
4 were sent on missions we went as PJPs. When we returned home, we were
5 subordinated to local police stations.
6 Q. Very well. So when you went back to your regular policing
7 duties, were you a force of some kind?
8 A. No. We were not a striking force anymore.
9 Q. Tell me about the structure of a company. For example, the
10 1st Company, was that a unit with some cohesion?
11 A. Yes. It was a unit that consisted of some hundred men, but it
12 was never brought to full strength.
13 Q. Were there any smaller units within it?
14 A. Yes, there were three platoons, the 1st, 2nd, and the 3rd. I was
15 the commander of the 3rd Platoon, and the platoons consisted or drew
16 strength from the police stations in Birac. I was the commander of
17 Milici, Skelani, and Bratunac police units.
18 Q. Your men came from those stations; right?
19 A. Yes. When they received mobilisation calls, they would come from
20 those stations and they would be sent on missions.
21 Q. Did all the three platoons get to be deployed in the same
23 A. It all depended on the situation. It didn't have to be so.
24 Q. Thank you. Who was your immediate superior?
25 A. My immediate superior was Radomir Pantic, the company commander.
1 Q. Thank you. Who was his immediate superior?
2 A. His immediate superior, I believe, was the chief of the centre.
3 Q. Was your company part of a detachment?
4 A. I don't understand your question. We just called ourselves a
6 Q. Was that the only PJP company in the CSB Zvornik?
7 A. No. It was not the only company. My centre in Zvornik had four
8 or five companies in total, and they also went under the name PJP. They
9 were the 1st Company, the 2nd, the 3rd, the 4th, and so on and so forth.
10 Q. Was there a unique command for all the four companies?
11 A. There was a single command in the centre for all the companies.
12 Q. Well, that means that Mr. Vasic could have been your third
13 superior if the single command for the companies, known as detachment, is
14 there, then Vasic would have been the commander of the detachment, right,
15 or the superior to the detachment commander?
16 A. Yes. I believe that you're right.
17 MS. EDGERTON: That's extremely leading.
18 JUDGE KWON: Very leading. But I do not understand "the third."
19 How come Mr. Vasic was your third superior commander, Mr. Micic?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The President asked me who my
21 immediate superior in combat was and that was Radomir Pantic. The second
22 was the commander of all the four or five companies that we had.
23 Danilo Zoljic was his name.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. And who was his commander?
1 A. Danilo Zoljic's commander? It was the chief of the centre, of
3 Q. Name?
4 A. Dragomir Vasic.
5 JUDGE KWON: Please continue.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. From what level did you receive your orders?
9 A. I personally received orders from the level of the company
11 Q. You were asked about being captured. You went -- you took your
12 platoon to Sandici. Was your company there, the entire company?
13 A. The entire company arrived in Sandici.
14 Q. Thank you. And you spent the night between the 12th and the 13th
15 there; is that correct?
16 A. Yes, the night between the 12th and the 13th we spent there.
17 Q. Thank you. You said that there was not any arrest. Did anybody
18 else arrest somebody while you were there until 6.00 in the morning?
19 A. While I was there, there were no surrenders. Nobody was
20 captured. Muslims absolutely did not pass through there at all.
21 Q. On line 85 -- or, rather, page 85, line 4, you were suggested
22 that you protected Muslims from the Serbian forces attacks.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. In your statement provided in 2008, in paragraph 6 you stated
25 that you were protecting them from paramilitaries. What is correct,
1 which of the two are correct?
2 A. Paramilitaries is correct. We were afraid -- or, rather, that
3 was a message conveyed to us from the command to be afraid of
4 retaliation, because one or two years before that, a lot of Serbs had
5 been killed by Muslims, and that's why the command issued us an order in
6 order to prevent any retaliation efforts.
7 Q. Thank you. What was specifically --
8 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
9 MS. EDGERTON: Sorry, before it disappears from our LiveNote
10 screens, a transcript correction at page 102, line 5, Dr. Karadzic is
11 said to have asked the witness: "You were asked about being captured,"
12 and I'm sure that's not what Dr. Karadzic would have said.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: It was about people
14 being captured, not about the witness being captured.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to thank Ms. Edgerton
16 for spotting the mistake in the interpretation.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. My question was whether you captured anybody.
19 A. No. No, President, we didn't.
20 JUDGE MORRISON: Dr. Karadzic, before I forget, just one issue
21 for the witness.
22 You said you were protecting the Muslims from the potential for
23 them being attacked by paramilitaries. Did your forces ever engage the
24 paramilitaries in terms of a stand-off or actual combat?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were a few incidents in the
1 city involving paramilitaries.
2 JUDGE MORRISON: Were you ever personally, or your platoon, ever
3 as a platoon, engaged in such matters?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Never. I was a member of the MUP
5 from 1993, I still am, and I have never belonged to any other units. I
6 was never affiliated with any other unit.
7 JUDGE MORRISON: No, I'm not suggesting you were. What I was
8 asking was whether either you or any member of your platoon at the time
9 were actively engaged in a stand-off or combat between yourselves and
10 paramilitary units.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During that period of time, no, we
12 did not. I don't remember that we did.
13 JUDGE MORRISON: At any period of time?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps later, once we arrived in
15 town. There were incidents involving paramilitary groups. There were
16 attacks launched at our station or things like that.
17 JUDGE MORRISON: And did your unit or your company suffer any
18 casualties as a result of engagement with paramilitary forces?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember.
20 JUDGE MORRISON: That would be perhaps quite a memorable thing if
21 one Serbian unit of whatever description was attacked by another Serbian
22 unit of whatever description and Serbs were killed by Serbs or wounded by
23 Serbs. You're saying you have no memory of that?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember. There were no
25 casualties, which is why I'm saying that I do not remember.
1 JUDGE MORRISON: Thank you. Oh, one other --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
3 JUDGE MORRISON: What was the company strength, and what was your
4 platoon strength in terms of numbers of men?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The company had about 100 men. The
6 platoon should have had about 30, but that was never the case. In
7 practice it was not the case. Some were wounded and were on sick leave.
8 Some were on furlough and so on and so forth.
9 JUDGE KWON: We need to adjourn as soon as possible. How many
10 more minutes do you need, Mr. Karadzic?
11 THE ACCUSED: Five minutes, Excellency, maybe --
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Five minutes, not any more.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Let's clarify one thing. When you say you don't remember, the
16 way I understood you was there was no casualties or that I would
18 A. Yes, there were no casualties.
19 Q. What was your task? When you were dispatched at Potocari, what
20 were you sent to do there?
21 A. In 1995?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. As in my statement, it was to scour the terrain and to come close
24 to a group of Muslims and to provide security for them.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am referring the Trial Chamber to
1 the testimony of KDZ084, who said the same thing before this
2 Trial Chamber.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. You provided a statement in 2008 as a suspect; right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. How did that status end?
7 A. I was a suspect for the case of Srebrenica in 1995. I was
8 suspended for two years. I didn't work. Later on I returned, and the
9 proceedings against me or investigations against me were dropped due to
10 the lack of evidence. And the same was the case with all of the other
11 members who were with me there.
12 Q. You're no longer a suspect? You were never charged with any
14 A. That's correct.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Micic. I have no
16 further questions for you.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
19 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, may I have one question in re-cross
20 arising from the questions from His Honour Judge Morrison with regard to
22 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
23 Further Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:
24 Q. Just one question, Mr. Witness, very quickly. There were no Serb
25 paramilitaries or paramilitaries of any kind in Bratunac in July 1995,
1 were there?
2 A. I can't remember. In 1995, I didn't see anybody.
3 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let me clarify just one thing very
6 JUDGE KWON: About what, Mr. Karadzic? Without putting the
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] About Ms. Edgerton's question.
9 Let's ask the witness when the police station was attacked by
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember exactly. In 1993,
12 in 1994. I don't know exactly when that was.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's all.
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll stop here.
15 Thank you, Mr. Micic. That concludes your evidence. Thank you
16 for your coming to The Hague to give it.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 JUDGE KWON: We will adjourn here, and we'll continue tomorrow at
20 [The witness withdrew]
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.51 p.m.,
22 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 28th day
23 of March, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.