1 Monday, 8 April 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone.
7 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, you have some more questions? Please
9 THE ACCUSED: Good morning, Excellencies, good morning to
10 everyone. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Skoko. [In English] I will
11 not do anything in examination-in-chief right now.
12 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
13 Then yes, good morning, Ms. Sutherland.
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Good morning, Your Honour. Good morning,
15 Your Honours.
16 JUDGE KWON: Please proceed.
17 WITNESS: MILORAD SKOKO [Resumed]
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 Cross-examination by Ms. Sutherland:
20 Q. Dr. Skoko, I see that you have a number of papers in front of
21 you. Could you please, apart from your statement, put the documents to
22 one side before I start asking you some questions. Thank you.
23 You joined the SDS in 1990; correct?
24 A. I joined the SDS, as far as I can remember, sometime in 1991.
25 Q. Do you recall in one of the Assembly sessions, in fact, at the
1 33rd Session in July 1993 that you stated in that Assembly session that
2 you had been a member of the party for three years?
3 A. I don't have any statements from that Assembly -- well, that is
4 said in tentative terms. It's hard to say. I don't know which month
5 that was. I don't really think it matters that much, does it?
6 Q. Okay. You said that you joined in 1991, sometime in 1991. You
7 remained a member throughout the conflict in Bosnia?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Are you still a member now?
10 A. I'm not an active member of the party.
11 Q. In your statement you said that you were the director of the
12 Republika Srpska electricity supply board from August 1992 to February
13 1993, at which time you left the post. And you said that after you left
14 the post you continued to work as an advisor; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. When you left the post in February 1993 you didn't work for some
17 time, did you?
18 A. I did work as an advisor at the electricity company, as I've
19 already said. Also as I said in my statement, I worked on scientific
20 research in terms of analysis and providing opinions about different
21 peace plans that were topical at the time in terms of resolving the
22 conflict in Bosnia.
23 Q. What did you mean then when you said at the -- again at the
24 33rd Session in July 1993 at the Assembly session that you haven't been
25 working for four months now, what did you mean by that?
1 A. Well, at the time, in fact, in February 1993 I was dismissed by a
2 lobby, a group of interests in Republika Srpska. As you know during
3 every conflict there are interest groups and lobbies, so in fact I was
4 involved in a dispute in order to return to my previous position because
5 I thought that was done against the law, against the constitution, so
6 that was my remark to the Assembly --
7 Q. Dr. -- Dr. Skoko, if I can --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You were about to say that was your remark to the Assembly. What
10 I wanted to know was what were you doing between February and July?
11 A. I came to work to the electricity company. Basically I played
12 the role of advisor. I came to the electricity company as I would, I
13 received my salary. I worked on the --
14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the end of
15 the sentence.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND:
17 Q. What did you -- what were you advising on specifically? You said
18 you worked on and then the interpreter didn't catch the last part of your
20 A. Well, as you know, at the time the electricity board, or rather,
21 the electricity in Republika Srpska as such was totally destroyed, so I
22 was supposed to provide advice on enhancing energy facilities.
23 Q. And who did you advise specifically? Who did you provide this
24 advice to?
25 A. The director-general at the time was Mr. Nikola Erceg.
1 Mr. Drago Skulic [phoen] was the technical director so I co-operated with
3 Q. You said in your statement that there were four incomplete
4 municipalities within the federal Sarajevo, and that's Stari Grad,
5 Novi Grad, Novo Sarajevo and Centar. In fact, during the conflict there
6 were six municipalities in whole or in part inside the front lines of
7 Bosnian-held territory in Sarajevo. Before you mentioned plus Ilidza and
8 Vogosca; correct?
9 A. I'm sorry, I did not quite understand that question.
10 Q. You said in your statement that there were four municipalities
11 within the federal Sarajevo. You in fact said four incomplete
12 municipalities. You said Stari Grad, Novi Grad, Novo Sarajevo, and
13 Centar, but in fact there's two additional municipalities, that is,
14 Ilidza and Vogosca which were also -- had part of their territory within
15 the front -- inside the front lines.
16 A. Part of the municipality of Stari Grad, the old city, was also
17 the Serb municipality. However, the part that you mention was a marginal
18 part, that is to say a marginal part in the following sense: The number
19 of households that were supposed to be provided with electricity. That
20 was a very marginal number.
21 Q. You said that the number of households in Sarajevo may have been
22 approximately 40.000 for the four municipalities you mentioned. You
23 don't have a source for that in your statement. That's -- do you?
24 That's just your estimate?
25 A. Please, in accordance with the 1991 census, these four urban
1 municipalities that I spoke of had a population of 195.000 Muslims.
2 That's the census of 1991. If you take into account that the largest
3 number of Serbs from those four municipalities had already left, or
4 rather, a marginal number stayed on during the war, that's it. Some
5 Muslims came in the meantime so that would be 200 to 250.000 inhabitants.
6 If we take into account the fact that an average Muslim family had five
7 or six members of household then that would be from 35 to 40.000
8 households on average.
9 Q. Are you aware of the Sarajevo household survey conducted in 1994
10 by an NGO called the Institute for the Research of Crimes against
11 Humanity in International Law Sarajevo which interviewed and received
12 results from 85.000 different households within the front lines of
14 A. I don't have that information, but please. As I worked on this
15 material that I have been speaking about, I worked at the republican
16 institute for social planning which was the central planning institution
17 for all of Bosnia-Herzegovina. So when I'm presenting this information I
18 am presenting official information, official data of the republican
19 institute for statistics of Bosnia-Herzegovina from 1991.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honours, and Mr. Karadzic, the reference to
21 the household survey can be found at Exhibit P04997 which is e-court
22 page 1, footnote 4.
23 Q. Dr. Skoko, you say that it follows that if you take all of the
24 electricity -- if you take that all of the electricity was used for
25 households, the average monthly consumption was 308 kilowatt hours per
1 household. Assuming your figures are correct regarding the amount of
2 electricity that was available, you're overestimating the amount of
3 electricity available to each household for at least two reasons and the
4 first is that the figure of 308 kilowatt hours is based on all the
5 electricity being used for households, yes?
6 A. Please, when I made these balances, I worked on all the
7 electricity spent by households and that came through Serb-held territory
8 plus 40 million kilowatt hours that the Muslim side had from their own
9 sources. So that is a total of 590. If we divide it by four years, or
10 rather, 46 months and 40.000 households, then the ultimate figure would
11 be 308 kilowatt hours per household. So I was not taking into account
12 consumption of schools, and so on and so forth. I cannot do all of that.
13 I'm not saying that each and every household could receive 308 kilowatt
14 hours because this electricity was largely used for the manufacturing of
15 ammunition within Sarajevo and for various other purposes. Now, this
16 quantity of electricity, did they distribute it that way? Did they check
17 whether this energy was being used rationally or irrationally? I cannot
18 go into that. I'm just saying how much electric and energy was available
19 per household.
20 Q. What you do, though, is you take the figure and then you divide
21 it by 40.000 households and you come up with a figure of 308 kilowatt
22 hours. But in fact, as we've just seen, the -- a survey in 1984 says
23 there's 85.000 households in Sarajevo. That's number one. Number two,
24 you would agree that hospitals were also using this electricity that was
25 supplied to the city of Sarajevo, yes?
1 A. I don't know about that. It is possible that some households
2 used electricity for heating as well. I cannot go into the internal
3 distribution of electricity in terms of individual users.
4 Q. Mr. -- Dr. Skoko, not only hospitals, government buildings,
5 UNPROFOR, humanitarian agencies, water pumping stationing, they all used
6 the electricity that was coming into Sarajevo, weren't they?
7 A. I cannot claim that. I don't know that. Why would somebody use
8 electricity for heating if there were large coal mines in the immediate
9 vicinity of Sarajevo? So there are many cases that households used
10 electricity for heating, but that was their own affair, how they would
11 distribute that energy. I don't know that. How could I know who used
12 electric energy and how? Please, this information about 80.000, that is
13 simply impossible, it is simply impossible because I have used official
14 data of the republican institute of statistics of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
15 I'm saying that according to the 1991 census in the territory of these
16 four municipalities that were under the control of the Muslims not to
17 take into account the periphery of these municipalities that the
18 Prosecutor spoke of, there was about 200 -- there was a population of
19 about 200.000 Muslims.
20 Q. Dr. Skoko, you were aware, are you not, of the interruption of
21 all electricity supply from the 7th of December, 1992, through to the
22 15th of January, 1993, aren't you?
23 A. I cannot speak of any exact dates, but I know that from 1992
24 until almost the end of January 1993 there was shelling of the
25 transformer station in Blazuj. On that occasion two transformers were
1 totally destroyed, one of them leaked, so almost all of Sarajevo was left
2 without any electricity including the Serb part of Sarajevo except for
3 some of the marginal parts that were under Serb control.
4 Q. And you're also aware of Sarajevo being without electricity for
5 140 days in 1993, including 53 consecutive days?
6 A. I don't have that information that for 140 days Sarajevo was
7 out -- was without any electric energy. I don't know where you get that
8 information from.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we could have 65 ter number 24909, please.
10 Q. Dr. Skoko, this is a 1993 annual report from BH Elektroprivreda.
11 If we could go to page 10 of the report. And if you can look at the
12 fourth full paragraph starting:
13 "The supply of Sarajevo by electricity was provided ..."
14 And then the last sentence of that paragraph:
15 "During 1993 the city was without electricity supply about
16 140 days. The longest ... period occurred from June 21st to August 13th
17 (53 days)."
18 Do you recall that occurring?
19 A. Please, first of all, this is a report of the Elektroprivreda of
20 the Federation, that is to say the Muslim part. We don't have that
21 report. I cannot give any comment with regard to these data. This is
22 not a valid report that I could confirm. That is one thing. Secondly, I
23 said a moment ago --
24 Q. But do you recall -- sorry.
25 A. I did not count the days during 1993, but 140 days that is
1 impossible. A moment ago I said that the longest shortage was in
2 January, the end of December 1992 and then January 1993. So according to
3 our information that was approximately 45 days at the time. I think that
4 this information is manipulated. 140 days, 53 days without any
5 interruption, no I don't have that information.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I seek to tender this page of the
8 MR. ROBINSON: [Microphone not activated]
9 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Could you try again.
10 MR. ROBINSON: Yes.
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
12 MR. ROBINSON: Okay. Yes, Mr. President, I think this page can
13 be admitted for the context even though it's not confirmed by the
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
16 Probably the witness's microphone should be turned on again.
17 We'll receive it.
18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6269, Your Honours.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: [Overlapping speakers] The cover page and page
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
22 MS. SUTHERLAND:
23 Q. Dr. Skoko, you said in your statement that there was radio
24 contact between the TS in RS and the FBH for the purposes of the work of
25 the EES. And you said that there was certain internal telephone lines
1 between Sarajevo 10 which is the Reljevo station and the dispatches of
2 the Sarajevo PCU plant situated in the building of the BH electricity
3 supply board. Who were you in radio contact with on the Bosnian side?
4 A. I personally was not there. I attended meetings at Sarajevo
5 airport a few times only. I was not involved in these contacts and it
6 wasn't my duty to do that either. It was appropriate people who worked
7 at transformer stations and maintained these contacts.
8 Q. You mentioned that there were disruptions on the transmission
9 line from Visegrad to Sarajevo and you said that the Pretis weapons
10 factory in Vogosca was prevented from operating. Did you know that the
11 Bosnian Serbs connected a transmission line Poline-Pale in order to get
12 an electricity line from Visegrad to Vogosca?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And did you know that a power transformer was installed at the
15 Pretis factory by September 1993?
16 A. Well, I'm not aware of these details. That was not my task.
17 This is purely operative work that persons involved in transformer
18 maintenance are aware of. I don't have that information.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, Mr. Karadzic, that's
20 Exhibit D02545.
21 JUDGE KWON: Going back to the previous document we just
22 admitted, it was published in both languages at the time; is it correct?
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: That's my understanding, Your Honour, yes.
24 JUDGE KWON: Was it usual for this institution to produce an
25 annual report in English and in B/C/S?
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: That I can't -- that I can't say, although I
2 note that the 1992 annual report is also in both languages.
3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Please continue.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND:
5 Q. Dr. Skoko, you said that -- well, it's your evidence that there
6 was no interruption of the power supply to Sarajevo during the war except
7 in the cases when the transmission lines were damaged. This leaves open
8 the possibility for damaged transmission lines to stay damaged for long
9 periods of time due to, for example, denial of access for repairs,
10 doesn't it?
11 A. I am not sure what your question is. There were interruptions,
12 but please the electric system is very complex. It can function only
13 when production, transmission, distribution, consumption, and system
14 management are fully harmonised. If any of these segments at any point
15 in time doesn't work well, the system falls, it crashes.
16 Q. Dr. Skoko, it's true, isn't it, that during the conflict
17 Bosnian Serb authorities denied access to locations where repairs were to
18 be carried out?
19 A. The repairs weren't only carried out by the Bosnian authorities.
20 There were joint teams formed by UNPROFOR and they went to the ground.
21 Most times the interruptions were at the demarcation line. I don't know
22 to what extent the Bosnian authorities in Sarajevo were active or what
23 they did and why there were interruptions.
24 Q. So you're not aware of the Bosnian Serbs denying access to any
25 repair locations?
1 A. I am not familiar with such reports about the obstruction of the
2 Bosnian Serbs when it comes to repairs. I'm not saying that there hasn't
3 been any obstruction from either side, but I don't mean systemic
4 obstruction. But during the war it would happen that a soldier would
5 shoot at a transformer in order to fill a container with oil that he
6 would use as fuel, but systemic obstruction was not present in the sense
7 that somebody ordered obstruction. I'm not saying that there weren't
8 individual incidents like as drunken soldiers shooting at a transformer
9 station or something of that kind.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we could have 65 ter number 24262, please.
11 Q. Dr. Skoko, this is a monthly UNPROFOR report for July 1993, and
12 if we can see at the bottom of page 1 under the heading 1.1 Electricity,
13 it says:
14 "Electricity is and will remain the key of all the utilities
15 problems inside the sector. All the others are connected with. Serbs
16 denied any access to the repair location on the line which is supplying
17 the town (Reljevo/Vogosca)."
18 This shows the Serbs were obstructing electricity supply which is
19 contrary to your unequivocal statement that nobody from Republika Srpska
20 ever obstructed the power supply to Sarajevo, isn't it -- doesn't it?
21 A. This is Serbs. I don't know what is meant by that. Maybe it
22 refers to a group of soldiers or a group of citizens, but I'm saying that
23 nobody from the official authorities of the Republika Srpska starting
24 from President Karadzic down to me, the director of Elektroprivreda, and
25 down to the municipality presidents and those levels, there has never
1 been an order or an instruction to obstruct the power supply of Muslim
2 Sarajevo. I'm not denying such incidents. This may have been a group of
3 citizens or a group of soldiers. I'm not saying that this didn't happen
4 but this is not a systemic obstruction.
5 Q. It's true, isn't it, that the political authorities in Pale
6 retained control over the decision to allow access to repair damaged
7 transmission lines?
8 A. While I was director general of Elektroprivreda, I gave
9 instructions and never received any instructions from the authorities at
10 Pale. Those were very difficult times. It was war and these were really
11 trifles for the Presidency of the RS to deal with. There was a general
12 agreement that UNPROFOR in co-operation with both Elektroprivreda
13 companies would form joint teams to access individual locations to make
14 possible power supply for Sarajevo.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we could have 65 ter number 24263, please.
16 Q. Dr. Skoko, this is another UNPROFOR report from the 9th
17 of February, 1994, a status report.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: And if we can go to page 3 under the title
20 Q. First of all, it's outlining how much electricity Sarajevo and
21 Grbavica received for the week, 20 megawatts for Sarajevo and 7.5
22 megawatts for Grbavica. And then noted that this covers 10 per cent of
23 the city's needs from before the war. But if we look at the third
24 paragraph under the title electricity it says:
25 "In January it was agreed to repair the line Reljevo-Buca Potok
1 which is essential for the distribution of electricity to the people of
2 Sarajevo. Still, clearance for this repair mission has not been given by
3 Pale yet."
4 Now, this document shows that although it was agreed that a
5 repair would take place, it was the political authorities in the capital
6 who prevented a repair from taking place; correct?
7 A. No, the headquarters of Elektroprivreda was at Pale, so by
8 "Pale," the headquarters of Elektroprivreda is meant here. Ours was a
9 public institution and we were located at Pale and this has nothing to do
10 with the political authorities of the RS.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I, Your Excellencies?
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I ask Madam Sutherland to
14 show us where -- upon what her interpretation is that they didn't allow
15 something because when I read the text I see that it says that
16 electricity has not arrived yet and not that it was cut off. Line 24,
17 prevented repair, but it does not follow from this document that we
18 prevented anything, but rather that the approval or the clearance wasn't
19 in yet.
20 JUDGE KWON: She referred to the passage that clearance has not
21 given yet. Let us proceed.
22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could we have 65 ter number 24264, please.
23 Q. Dr. Skoko, this is another UNPROFOR document dated the
24 27th of September, 1994, and if we can go to 1(b) on the first page,
25 Electricity. And it says:
1 "... repairs have begun on the Sarajevo network following
2 Karadzic's agreement to clear the access of repair teams, provided
3 UNPROFOR subsequently also addressed the problem of the eastern and
4 northern Bosnia power lines, of particular interest to the Serb civilian
6 Now, this shows that it's the political leadership in Pale that
7 gives the authorisation for repairs, in fact, to -- for access to the
8 repair teams so that repairs can take place, isn't it?
9 A. That is not correct. No, it's not correct. I don't know if the
10 UNPROFOR team happened to talk to President Karadzic. It may have been
11 an individual instance. But repairs of the electric power network never
12 required an approval of President Karadzic or the government or any
13 instance above the Elektroprivreda.
14 Q. It's true, isn't it, that the Bosnian Serb authorities
15 intentionally instructed -- obstructed the delivery of spare parts needed
16 to repair the distribution network?
17 A. Is that a question for me?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. But whose report is this, please?
20 Q. I'm asking you a question. The Bosnian Serb authorities
21 intentionally obstructed the delivery of spare parts needed to repair the
22 distribution network, didn't they?
23 A. I do not have such information.
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we could have 65 ter number 24900, please.
25 Q. If we -- this is another UNPROFOR document dated the
1 11th of October, 1994. If we could go to page 2, please. And under the
2 heading Electricity it says:
3 "12.5 tonnes of transformer oil needed in Sarajevo for repairs to
4 the distribution network, are blocked in Hrasnica (south of the airport)
5 due to lack of clearance from the Bosnian Serbs (clearance would be
6 granted if 50 per cent of it is given to the Serbs) ..."
7 Now do you recall --
8 A. I'm not familiar with this information and I don't know who it
9 was that supplied this, UNPROFOR or someone else. But I know that
10 usually during the supply of spare parts and stuff the weapons could be
11 smuggled. I don't know whether somebody from the Serb side demanded some
12 oil. As I said, this information is unknown to me.
13 Q. Dr. Skoko --
14 A. But I'm sure --
15 Q. Sorry.
16 A. But I'm sure that this demand for 50 per cent of the oil did not
17 come from the authorities or the Elektroprivreda. That may have been an
18 initiative of some local people or the municipality authorities, but as I
19 said I have no information about it.
20 Q. This is another example of obstructing the power supply, isn't
21 it? Because by withholding -- by blocking clearance, it then means that
22 electricity supply cannot be fixed?
23 A. I cannot agree with that. Even if we were to suppose that things
24 were like that, I think that the Serbs at that moment had a fully legal
25 demand. Both main transformer stations were on Serbian-controlled
1 territory and they were -- they had been heavily shelled. Those were
2 large transformer stations that needed much oil. Those were the
3 transformer stations at Lukavica and at Blazuj. And the transformer
4 stations in town were mostly small and they only needed 1/50th or 1/100th
5 of the quantity the large ones needed. But it was very difficult to
6 supply oil for the Blazuj transformer station. One litre of oil cost
7 about 5 marks. Even if there was such a demand, of which as I said I'm
8 not aware, it would have been a legitimate and legal demand made by
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I seek to tender this document.
11 JUDGE KWON: Only this one, Ms. Sutherland?
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Sorry, Your Honour, and the other documents that
13 we -- 65 ter 24262 and 65 ter 26263 also.
14 JUDGE KWON: And 64?
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes.
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
17 MR. ROBINSON: [Microphone not activated]
18 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Sutherland, could you turn off your microphone.
19 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, thank you, Mr. President. First of all, I
20 would like to ask again that the Prosecution tender these documents by
21 the time they're offered. I think by now everybody ought to know that
22 they should do that. But having said that, I don't have any objection.
23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. We'll admit those four documents.
24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibits P6270 through to Exhibits P6273
25 respectively, Your Honours.
1 MS. SUTHERLAND:
2 Q. Dr. Skoko, Mr. Karadzic and the Bosnian Serb authorities used the
3 restoration of utilities as a bargaining chip in the conflict, didn't
5 A. No.
6 Q. So you're not aware that the Serb military forces prevented the
7 restoration of utilities on conditions such as to compel the Bosnian Serb
8 forces to stop fighting?
9 A. That's a legitimate demand. You can't expect people to go
10 somewhere to die for the repair of a power line. The teams would not go
11 out on the ground unless there was a cease-fire. In one such incident,
12 six of our men were wounded while they were repairing power lines.
13 Q. Dr. Skoko, you said there were never any decisions, orders, or
14 any other instructions to cut off power supply to federal Sarajevo
16 A. I have never seen such a decision, and I believe that there has
17 never been one.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we could have 65 ter 24253, please.
19 Q. This is another UNPROFOR document dated the 26th of May, 1995.
20 And if we can go to page 3, please, it states --
21 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Could you take a look at lines 20 to
22 22 on previous page. Is your question correctly reflected -- no, I'm
23 sorry, the next question, lines 24 and 25.
24 MR. ROBINSON: That's actually what she said but I had the same
25 reaction when I heard it.
1 JUDGE BAIRD: I saw that too myself.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, I can put the question again, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND:
5 Q. Dr. Skoko, a moment ago we were talking about the authorities
6 using the restoration of utilities -- or the -- not restoring utilities
7 as a bargaining chip in the conflict. And you said that you weren't
8 aware of any documents where the Serb authorities were using the
9 restoration or the non-restoration of utilities as a bargaining chip in
10 the conflict. And I asked you whether you were -- and so I will ask you:
11 The Bosnian Serb authorities did continue to insist that there would be
12 no restoration of utilities until the fighting in the city had stopped?
13 A. I do not have such orders or instructions, but even if there were
14 some that would have been a legal and legitimate demand. Can you expect
15 anybody in his right mind to go to the line of conflict to repair
16 anything while there is fighting going on? It's not logical.
17 Q. As you know, Dr. Skoko, there were meetings where there would be
18 an agreement to stop the fighting so that a repair could go on. Do you
19 agree with that?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And so in these other instances, though, the Bosnian Serb
22 authorities actually used it, the fact that they wouldn't do repairs,
23 they wouldn't restore the utilities until fighting had stopped, they were
24 using that as a bargaining chip to, in fact, have the Bosnians cease
25 fighting against the Bosnian Serbs, trying to break out of the city?
1 A. That is not correct, not at all. This is nothing to do with what
2 I stated. There has been no political pressure for the Muslims to stop
3 fighting for Sarajevo. We're simply talking about the demand to cease
4 fire in order to be able to repair infrastructure. This is nothing to do
5 with political pressure and political blackmail.
6 Q. And you don't know that the Serb military authorities were of the
7 same view that I just stated?
8 A. I have no information about the behaviour of the Serb military
9 authorities because I wasn't part of those structures. It is possible
10 that some local authorities or local military groups obstructed, but I
11 have no knowledge about that.
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour and Mr. Karadzic, I would refer you
13 to Exhibit P00896.
14 Q. So, Dr. Skoko, getting back to this paragraph in your statement
15 where you categorically state that nobody from the RS -- sorry, that
16 there were never any decisions, orders, or any other instructions to cut
17 off the power supply, and I wanted to take you to this document that we
18 see on the screen, 65 ter number 24253. And if we look on page 3 it
19 says, "This morning civil affairs...," and it's in the middle of the page
21 "This morning civil affairs has been informed by SCS that the
22 electricity supply to the city is cut. It appears that Pale authorities
23 made a political decision to cut electricity supply along the Vogosca and
24 Reljevo lines. If such situation persists Sarajevo will have no water
1 So this is a contemporaneous document at the time of the NATO air
2 strikes which shows that it was deliberately cut, doesn't it? The
3 document is dated the 26th of May, 1995.
4 A. This document doesn't show anything because it says "it seems."
5 In other words, it is possible. It is possible that today is Wednesday,
6 but no, it isn't, it's Monday. It says "it seems" here, but I state with
7 full responsibility that there have never been such instructions from the
8 high political level at Pale. Take a close look and you will see it only
9 says "it seems."
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: May I tender this document, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It has not been recorded that
13 Dr. Skoko said that he didn't know what kind of document this was. This
14 wasn't recorded. The document was not introduced to him or us.
15 JUDGE KWON: Do you confirm having said that, Mr. Skoko?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
18 We'll receive it.
19 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President, actually I did have an
20 objection to this document, and that is I don't think -- first of all,
21 the witness hasn't confirmed anything so the question is whether it
22 contradicts him and that sentence, somebody's opinion, it appears that
23 Pale authorities made a political decision which is a very subjective
24 opinion as opposed to a contradictory fact, so I don't believe that this
25 actually is a document that has probative value to contradict the witness
1 and shouldn't be admitted.
2 JUDGE KWON: Does it not go to the weight at the end of the day,
3 Mr. Robinson?
4 MR. ROBINSON: Well, it also goes to the weight but in terms of
5 actually being a document which factually contradicts the witness I don't
6 think it even meets the minimum standards of admissibility.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Sutherland, would you like to make any
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, the witness categorically states
10 that there were never any decisions, orders, or other instructions, and
11 this is a document which shows that it was -- electricity was
12 deliberately cut off or the -- perhaps, Your Honour, I can show another
13 document and then if the two documents are read together it will make it
14 clear that my -- the point that I'm trying to make.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Please proceed.
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we could have 65 ter number 1D03405, please.
18 Q. Dr. Skoko, this is another UNPROFOR document. It's dated the
19 28th of May, 1995. If we could go to e-court page 3. At point number 6
20 we can see -- we can see in point number 6 where they're summarising the
21 events following the air strikes:
22 "They have cut the water and electricity supplies to
23 Sarajevo ..."
24 If we could go to e-court page 6, please. So this document is
25 two days after the earlier document that we just looked at. And at
1 paragraph 17 it says:
2 "Water and electricity supplies to Sarajevo city were cut by the
3 Serbs as of Friday afternoon."
4 And then it says -- talking about who controls the water supplies
5 and then it says:
6 "The small amount of electricity that exists would only be
7 sufficient for emergencies such as government buildings and hospitals."
8 So this document shows that the water and electricity supplies
9 were cut off, does it not?
10 A. Perhaps it does say that water and electricity supplies were cut
11 off, but none of the items say whether that was a consequence of damage
12 nor does it anywhere say that there were any orders issues from the
13 leadership of Republika Srpska or Elektroprivreda of Republika Srpska or
14 any station of the electricity board of Republika Srpska. So it doesn't
15 say at all why the supply was cut off nor are any orders mentioned at
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I seek to tender these two
18 documents. I think read together it makes it clear.
19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Skoko, while this document does not say it was
20 specifically cut off by the decision of Serb authorities, but do you
21 exclude such a possibility at all?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I exclude such a possibility.
23 Not only was there no order issued from a high level of the authorities
24 of Republika Srpska, I'm talking about the Presidency and the government,
25 but not even from the level of the general manager and the management of
1 the Elektroprivreda of Republika Srpska. This is what I claim.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
3 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. We don't have any objection
4 to admission of this document which is factual in nature, but we maintain
5 our objection to the first document.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, if I may.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: It's a matter of weight that you will assign to
10 the document.
11 JUDGE KWON: If we admit the second one, is there need to tender
12 the first one?
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, the first one --
14 JUDGE KWON: It becomes a practicality.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, the first one says that it appears Pale
16 authorities made a political decision to cut the electricity supply along
17 Vogosca and Reljevo lines, and that's on the 26th of May. And then on
18 the 28th of May it simply says they cut the water and electricity
19 supplies in Sarajevo, so I think you need to have the two documents to
20 make the link.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE KWON: In the contextual situation we'll admit both of
24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibits P6274 and Exhibit P6275 respectively.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND:
1 Q. Dr. Skoko, you know that Vogosca line feeds into Sarajevo 2 which
2 is the Veselici line and that the Reljevo line feeds Sarajevo 7 which is
3 the Buca Potok line, don't you?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Also, just in relation to the cutting off of water, water-supply
6 relies on electrical pumps, doesn't it? So if there's no electricity,
7 there's no running water, is there?
8 A. Yes, apart from one part of the waterworks up in Bistrik.
9 THE INTERPRETER: And could the witness please repeat the last
10 part of his answer because the interpreters couldn't hear him.
11 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Skoko, could you repeat your last part of your
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was a small waterworks in
14 Bistrik which could supply a part of Sarajevo.
15 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Sutherland, how much more would you need to
16 conclude your cross-examination?
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: I would just like to put one document and two
19 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you. 65 ter number 24254, please.
21 Q. Dr. Skoko, another UNPROFOR document dated the
22 31st of July, 1995. And if we -- it's a weekly situation report. If we
23 could go to the last page, please, in e-court page 7. And under section
24 (F) Daily Life under Utilities, it states there:
25 "Serb authorities in western Sarajevo, now willing to talk to
1 their Bosnian counterparts, said that they cut off the water,
2 electricity, and gas supplies in late May to 'punish the Muslims' for
3 their offensive around the city."
4 Now, this document dated July 1995 is referring back to the fact
5 that electricity was cut off in May 1995. And this is just another
6 example of deliberately cutting off the water-supply, is it not?
7 A. This does not confirm your thesis. I suppose that this is part
8 of Sarajevo between Vogosca and Sarajevo. So this is the section that
9 was involved in combat operations all the time and this does not confirm
10 the thesis that there were orders from a high level to cut off
11 electricity supply, though I do not dispute the fact that perhaps
12 something may have been destroyed by the local fighters and so on.
13 That's possible. However, that does not confirm your main thesis.
14 Q. First of all, Vogosca is in the north of Sarajevo. We're talking
15 here about Serb authorities in western Sarajevo. But in any event, it is
16 another example, is it not, of deliberately cutting off the supply of
17 electricity by the Bosnian Serb authorities?
18 A. But it's not the local authorities which are mentioned here.
19 This could perhaps be the local fighters but certainly not the local Serb
20 authorities. No order, no instructions or anything of the kind was
21 issued or is mentioned here. Now I cannot be aware of each individual
22 incident. There were individual incidents along the front line and I do
23 not dispute that; however, that was not the rule.
24 Q. Thank you. Dr. Skoko. I have no further questions.
25 JUDGE KWON: Are you tendering this document?
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE KWON: Could you remind me, by western Sarajevo what does
3 it refer to, Ms. Sutherland.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Western Sarajevo is --
5 JUDGE KWON: I mean the authorities in western Sarajevo.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I can -- that would be -- it could
7 be authorities in Ilidza and/or the SRK.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes. I will leave it at that.
9 Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we please return
11 the document that was last on the screen so that we can see it again and
12 the same page, please.
13 THE REGISTRAR: That's Exhibit P6276, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
15 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
16 Q. [Interpretation] Dr. Skoko, I would ask you to look at the last
17 paragraph under Schools. What was their estimate of the number of people
18 living there, the population, and what is your estimate?
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Sutherland.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Schools was not a topic for cross-examination.
22 We were dealing specifically with electricity.
23 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson, school is mentioned in the document
24 admitted. Is that --
25 MR. ROBINSON: I was going to leave it to Dr. Karadzic to explain
1 to you where he's going with this because I myself don't understand.
2 JUDGE KWON: Do you follow, Mr. Karadzic?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellencies. This piece
4 of information is just located under the subtitle Schools and I'm
5 interested in the population estimate, 300.000. This was an estimate
6 which was served up by the Muslim side obviously because Dr. Skoko said
7 around 200.000 and so this is not 600.000.
8 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. If you would like to deal with the
9 population, I will allow the question. Please continue.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Dr. Skoko, I wanted to ask you to look at their estimate here and
12 how different it is from the data you had that were based on the census.
13 So are we talking about 600.000 inhabitants of Sarajevo or is it just the
14 city proper?
15 A. Excuse me, these are not my information. These are the official
16 information from the statistics bureau of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that in the
17 four municipalities in the city there were almost 200.000 Muslims, but
18 that was even not the complete figure. The figure was somewhat smaller.
19 Q. Thank you. You mentioned a small waterworks on Bistrik and was
20 there some free fall on the Serbian side with water that was flowing into
22 A. All the water that was flowing into the Serbian Sarajevo or the
23 greater part of the water was flowing down from Pale. As you said it was
24 a free fall from Pale.
25 Q. Thank you. Did the Serbian side ever cut off this flow of water
1 coming from Bistrica or anywhere else where there was a free fall? You
2 were in the government. Was it ever suggested or ordered or did it ever
3 happen that the water, except for Bacevo where electricity was necessary,
4 that somewhere where electricity was not necessary water was cut off and
5 there was no supply to Sarajevo?
6 A. I don't have the information that ever such an information was
7 issued or that there were ever any instructions given to that effect.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not sure if this is the same
10 document, probably it is. No, 1D03405. Can we please have a look at
11 that one. We would need page 3, please. Paragraph 6 to which
12 Madam Sutherland referred.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. I will read it out to you in the English language so that it
15 would be interpreted to you. It will be better than I would do it:
16 [In English] "Events following the air strikes have so far
17 resulted in about 80 dead and over 160 injured. Further, the Serbs are
18 subjecting 325 UNPROFOR personnel ...," and so on and so on.
19 [Interpretation] Do you remember this bombing from the end of
20 May 1995, and was this a bombing that had an impact on the electricity
21 supply infrastructure?
22 A. Certainly, just as any other bombing it has to -- it caused some
23 damage. I do not have the precise information about what was damaged
24 because I was not in Pale at that moment. The Elektroprivreda was
25 located in Bijeljina at the time.
1 Q. Thank you. Could we please see the next page which
2 Madam Prosecutor referred to and quoted something from it. I think it's
3 the last page of the document. No, the penultimate page I suppose then.
4 I cannot find on which page it is, but the document said that 80 per cent
5 of electricity and water was supplied via the Serbian territory. Is that
6 information that is close to your knowledge? Was it more or was it less?
7 A. I do not know what was the amount of water exactly. I do not
8 have this information, but during 1992-1995 of the total amount of
9 electricity 55 -- or actually 550 was coming through the Serbian
10 territory and 42 through the Serbian territory. So 42 per cent from
11 Serbian territory and 8 per cent, if I'm not mistaken, was coming from
12 across the territories that were not under the Serb control.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please now have a look at --
15 I apologise to the interpreters. Could we please once again see 24900,
16 probably it has been assigned a different number now. It is a document
17 that was discussed on page 15. Next page, please. That's fine. Thank
19 MR KARADZIC: [Interpretation].
20 Q. Can you please see this under Electricity. I will read it:
21 [In English] "The city of Sarajevo now receives about
22 20 megawatts, while the minimum requirement is said to be
23 60 megawatts ..."
24 [Interpretation] Is this the calculation for the whole city or
25 did they only calculate for the inner city?
1 A. I don't know whose calculations these are. Unfortunately, I
2 really could not confirm this. However, first when we talk about
3 megawatts, it is unusual to calculate the needs in megawatts rather than
4 in kilowatts per hour. However, 60 megawatts would in any case be
5 something inappropriate for this relevant period. 60 megawatts would
6 really be quite a lot for that time.
7 Q. Thank you. Can you please have a look at what is said in the
8 further text:
9 [In English] "This means that priority areas receive electricity
10 24 hours a day, while most of the city receives electricity a few hours
11 per day."
12 [Interpretation] Would even these 20 megawatts, as they termed
13 them, cover the priorities around-the-clock, whereas there were
14 restrictions imposed on the population. And could you please tell the
15 Chamber how frequent were the restrictions and under what circumstances
16 in war time and peace time restrictions have to be introduced?
17 A. I really don't know how they distributed the electricity and what
18 they use it for, it's difficult to comment on that. But I can say, for
19 example, that at the time in -- for the most part of 1992 and 1993 and
20 when we talk about restrictions, most of the restrictions were in the
21 part Republika Srpska including 20 Serb municipalities in Krajina where
22 on every seven days there would be four hours or less during which the
23 electricity was supplied and that lasted for almost a year and a half.
24 You know that at the time 12 babies perished in Banja Luka. That is to
25 say that the situation with regard to supply of electricity in Sarajevo
1 not to mention the megawatts or kilowatts per hour were far, far better
2 by comparison to other Serb-populated areas.
3 Q. Thank you. And under Water down on the screen, can you please
4 have a look at that as well because of electricity. It says there:
5 [In English] "Water supply relies on electrical pumps. The
6 Bacevo pumping station, which is the main station for Sarajevo, has been
7 receiving low levels of electricity recently because of problems with the
8 Vogosca-Reljevo line."
9 [Interpretation] Is it true that the pumps from Bacevo were the
10 main station for the supply of Sarajevo and that they depended on
11 electricity supply as it's stated here?
12 A. I really don't have the information about water-supply. I am not
13 expert enough to comment on that, how much electricity these water-pumps
14 consumed. However, based on the information I heard from a colleague who
15 was in charge of that, the problem of Bacevo was mostly that there were
16 cut-offs in the power lines because they were shelled by Muslim shells
17 from Igman.
18 Q. Thank you. Did you receive reports that the Muslim side shelled
19 these key transformer stations in Blazuj? And were these stations in
20 Serbian territory? If they were, would Serbs shell their own transformer
22 A. I know that I cannot give you an exact reference. I don't
23 remember the month. It was during 1993 when the Serb side even offered
24 that the power line should be repaired and that electricity supply should
25 be provided for Hrasnica which was then under Muslim control.
1 Electricity was then supplied even up to Igman. After that, the Muslim
2 side shelled from up there when the three main transformer stations were
3 hit at the Blazuj transformer station. After that the whole city
4 including the Serb and Muslim-populated side with the exception of small
5 part of the Sarajevo populated -- of the Serb-populated Sarajevo was left
6 without electricity for one month. I think this was a crazy act of the
7 Muslim side as if they deliberated wanted to cause a humanitarian
8 catastrophe in Sarajevo, a humanitarian disaster, so they could
9 manipulate it thereafter. It was not justified and not caused by
11 Q. Thank you.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have a look at
13 24262 for a minute so that Dr. Skoko would be allowed to complete his
14 sentence, or rather, to read the entire sentence to him. The document
15 has been assigned a new number now, but it was 24262.
16 JUDGE KWON: Exhibit --
17 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit --
18 JUDGE KWON: 6070 -- 6270.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that we need the following
20 page -- or, just a moment. Excuse me. No, electricity is here.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. I will read it out to you. You were read this:
23 [In English] "Serbs denied any access to the repair location on
24 the line which is supplying the town (Reljevo/Vogosca)."
25 [Interpretation] And it goes on:
1 [In English] "Fierce fighting and shelling have provoked a lot of
2 cuts and damages in the northern area of Sarajevo."
3 [Interpretation] What is your knowledge about the effect this
4 heavy fighting and shelling between Sarajevo and Vogosca had on the
5 structure of electricity transmission?
6 A. It is only natural that transmission and distribution would be
7 affected by fighting. That was the root cause of these problems.
8 Distribution is affected, transmission is affected, small transformer
9 stations are destroyed, so the entire system cannot work. I've already
10 said that when one segment of the system fails then the entire system can
11 no longer function. It is only natural when fighting is going on these
12 facilities cannot be repaired and time is needed to repair it anyway.
13 Q. Thank you, Dr. Skoko. You mentioned that there has to be a
14 balance so that things could function. Electricity transmission and
15 electricity distribution, is there a difference and who was responsible
16 for what? The Trial Chamber should be made aware of that.
17 A. Dr. Karadzic, please do try to explain what you meant by that
19 Q. You mentioned production, transmission, distribution, and so on.
20 Just explain the difference between transmission and distribution, is
21 that the same service?
22 A. No, these are two different services. Transmission goes from
23 production to major transformer stations, and then major transformer
24 stations transform voltage and then smaller users receive electricity
25 afterwards. Distribution can involve several, though.
1 Q. Thank you. And which level? Which service is affected by the
2 local factor and which is affected by the central factor?
3 A. Well, as far as distribution is concerned, it can be affected by
4 the local factor. However, in war time it can affect both because
5 transmission goes through municipalities. In peacetime local, or rather,
6 municipal organs should not have any effect on electricity transmission;
7 however, the situation becomes a bit more complicated in war time.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I see the time but I
9 do need some 10 or 12 minutes to complete this witness's examination. So
10 perhaps after the break?
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We shall take a break for half an hour and
12 resume at three past 11.00.
13 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.
14 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Sutherland.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I'm sorry, if I may interrupt
17 Mr. Karadzic's re-examination for one moment. You asked me at page 27
18 who the authorities were in western Sarajevo, and I think it was a brain
19 freeze and I could only put it down to the leg, but I forgot to mention
20 Novi Grad and the Reljevo power station which is in the territory of the
21 SRK. Thank you.
22 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Ms. Sutherland.
23 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Dr. Skoko, to the best of your knowledge, did I interfere in
2 supply-related matters; and if I did interfere, did I interfere for the
3 sake of making things better or worse?
4 A. President Karadzic, I never received any instruction from you and
5 not only not from you, an instruction that would mean obstruction in
6 terms of making the electric supply of Sarajevo worse. If you did not
7 give us support in terms of material and other support, that is to say
8 appealing to the government to repair the facilities and to possibly
9 improve production, transmission, and distribution, you never carried out
10 any activity that would be considered obstruction.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D5312, could we please have a look
12 at that in e-court. Thank you.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Just a moment ago this was mentioned, local government. It was
15 also mentioned in cross-examination. So I would like to ask you --
16 actually, this isn't it in English. Yes, now we have the right document.
17 Could we please take a look at this. The 9th of August, 1993, the
18 then-Prime Minister Lukic says:
19 "Pursuant to Article 29, paragraph 3 of the Law on
20 State Administration ... and the order of the president of
21 Republika Srpska, I hereby order.
22 "The presidents of the Executive Committees of the
23 Municipal Assemblies, the chiefs of public security stations and
24 commanders of the units of the Army of Republika Srpska ..."
25 Then now we see paragraphs 1, 2, 3:
1 "Enable the unobstructed passage of regularly announced
2 humanitarian aid convoys and UNPROFOR teams ..."
3 And then we see what the other two paragraphs say. How does this
4 fit into your knowledge regarding the activity of the government and the
5 president of the republic?
6 A. This fully falls in line with what I said. This is, at any rate,
7 affirmative for the Elektrodistribucija of Republika Srpska to ensure
8 normal -- well, not exactly normal but the best possible supply of water,
9 gas, and electricity.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can is this be admitted.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D3328, Your Honours.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. 1D07542, could we
15 please have a look at that.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Two days later let us see how the commander of the
18 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps reacts to all of this.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Does Mr. Karadzic have a question for the
22 witness before he brings up the document?
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Dr. Skoko, to the best of your knowledge, such orders of the
1 prime minister were they taken seriously and were they implemented in the
3 A. Well, I can tell you for the most part yes, but there were
4 obstructions too. I have to say that when the war started when I became
5 director general of Elektrodistribucija or Republika Srpska I encountered
6 major problems in placing under my command part of the
7 Elektrodistribucija in Krajina, because some of the SAOs had been formed
8 and then some parts of the Elektrodistribucija behaved rather
9 autonomously. So I'm not ruling out the possibility of obstructions of
10 the decisions taken by the prime minister and also the president of the
12 Q. Thank you. Let us now look at the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. Two
13 days after that order that order is being referred to. It says here on
14 the basis of the order of the prime minister of Republika Srpska and now
15 it is being elaborated. It becomes an executive order to the units. And
16 can we have the next page paragraph 8 -- actually paragraph 8 starts on
17 this page in English so can we scroll down in English. However, in
18 Serbian we need the next page. Paragraph 8 says:
19 "Offer assistance to the civilian organs of government for
20 ensuring the flow of electric power and gas to the Sarajevo city area, to
21 the extent that organisation of the military permits."
22 You said that things did depend on the fighting that was going
23 on. How do you see this reaction of the corps commander two days after
24 that order had been issued?
25 A. That means that it is in accordance with your order and what was
1 up to the military was to stop fighting in order to enable access to the
2 lines so that repairs could be carried out. And then also to remove
3 mines in possible minefields in order to make it possible to repair the
4 transmission lines and other facilities that were down.
5 Q. [No interpretation]
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not hear
7 Mr. Karadzic.
8 JUDGE KWON: Could you repeat, Mr. Karadzic.
9 THE ACCUSED: Me or witness?
10 JUDGE KWON: Interpreters didn't hear your saying, Mr. Karadzic.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I asked whether this could be
13 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Sutherland.
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: No objection, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE KWON: We'll receive it.
16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D3329, Your Honours.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Dr. Skoko, what was the position of civilian authorities in
20 general and the directorate in terms of not providing power, water,
21 et cetera, in terms of international law?
22 A. As far as I know, civilian authorities - and I include the top
23 echelons of the government and Elektrodistribucija of
24 Republika Srpska - we were always prepared to a maximum within the realm
25 of the possible to provide those supplies of electricity that could have
1 been provided. I was not aware of a single obstruction of that kind.
2 Q. [No interpretation]
3 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Karadzic please repeat the number and
4 pause between question and answer.
5 JUDGE KWON: Could you repeat the number, Mr. Karadzic.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D40031.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Please, this is in the English language so I'm going to read it
9 out. This is the SRNA report. It says that SRNA is authorised to
10 publish the following letter of the president of the Presidency of
11 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, addressed to UNPROFOR and it
13 [In English] "Sirs.
14 "In the war being waged in the area of BH against Serbian people,
15 it is evident that some methods, forbidden by all international
16 conventions, are being used. Cutting electric current and phone lines to
17 the Serbian territory by Muslims is the latest example. This is just one
18 in the series of similar provocations directed to everything that is
19 Serbian. We have to emphasise that the Serbian side has done nothing
20 similar to that. We are asking from UNPROFOR to use its authority and
21 engage in stopping such incidents and to make pressure upon the other
22 side in order to alleviate mutual distrust and hatred, which is the
23 essential basis for establishing peace."
24 [Interpretation] How does this fit into your own knowledge
25 concerning my position and the position of the authorities of
1 Republika Srpska?
2 A. That fully tallies with what I stated a moment ago.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
4 JUDGE KWON: Again this is an example of putting leading
5 question. The question you put before you showed this document has --
6 had nothing to do with the content of this document. Please bear that in
7 mind, Mr. Karadzic.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But, Excellency, I did put a
9 question in terms of how we viewed that in the context of international
10 norms. I did ask about that.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This fully fits into all
12 international norms, and therefore it fits into my previous answers;
13 namely, that no obstructions were ever carried out in terms of supplying
14 electricity to the population of Sarajevo in respect of orders,
15 decisions, et cetera.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Lines 20 to 23, I asked what our
17 position was in terms of international law.
18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson will tell you how to put your
19 foundational question. Please bear in mind leading questions will reduce
20 the probative value of the evidence elicited from the witness.
21 We'll receive this.
22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D3330, Your Honours.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. It was suggested here several times that we obstructed repairs of
1 the grid around Sarajevo. Do you know about this? Did we intentionally
2 damage anything and did we obstruct repairs from the level of government
3 and the system as such?
4 A. I cannot rule out individual excesses committed by soldiers in
5 the field, that can never be ruled out. However, as far as supply is
6 concerned and as far as repairs are concerned and this overall positive
7 activity in terms of making the electricity system function, I never
8 received any orders or instructions against that.
9 Q. Thank you. Do you know how the other side acted in that respect?
10 A. A moment ago I gave two very specific examples when an attempt
11 was made to supply electricity to Hrasnica. They intentionally -- well,
12 I don't know whether it was intentional or whatever, but they shelled the
13 transformer station of Blazuj and that's why all of Sarajevo remained
14 without any electricity and I could give many other examples. So when
15 electricity was supposed to come from the hydro-electric power-plant of
16 Visegrad to Muslim Sarajevo, Muslim soldiers cut that line in order to
17 obstruct the power supply for the Pretis Vogosca factory. These are two
18 very specific examples.
19 Q. Thank you. Now I have a question of language. On page 10 in
20 relation to that report on supplies for Sarajevo you said that that was a
21 manipulation. Can you tell us on the basis of what you conclude that
22 that is a manipulation and do you have any explanation of this bilingual
23 presentation of supplies?
24 A. Sorry, please, what did this question have to do with?
25 Q. On page 10 you were shown a document, a Muslim report about power
1 supplies in Sarajevo and it was bilingual.
2 JUDGE KWON: That's leading.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 JUDGE KWON: Show the document and ask him why he thought it was
5 part of manipulation. It was annual report of Elektroprivreda.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now I don't know what the number
7 is. I would appreciate it if Ms. Sutherland could tell us the number of
8 the document.
9 JUDGE KWON: [Overlapping speakers]
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Ah, yes, that's it.
11 THE REGISTRAR: It's Exhibit P6269, Your Honours.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Next page, please. Further on.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. On the whole you do see the introductory part as well. What led
15 you to believe that this was a manipulation, as you said on page 10?
16 A. I don't see what the quantities involved are here.
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: I think -- sorry to interrupt. I think
18 Mr. Karadzic wants page 10 which -- of this document which was admitted.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. If it was displayed,
20 yes. In the city of Sarajevo -- actually, it's the fourth paragraph from
21 the top of the page, the supply of Sarajevo by electricity was provided,
22 et cetera.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Tell us what you know about this.
25 A. First of all, I don't have any knowledge about there being 53
1 days without electricity in Sarajevo uninterrupted. I said that the
2 period of the end of December 1992 and January 1993 was the longest
3 uninterrupted period when the Blazuj transformer station was shelled. So
4 this figure of 53 days does not correspond to the facts. As for 1993
5 that for 140 days the city did not have any power, I believe that this
6 does not correspond to the factual situation because in 1993, as compared
7 to 1992, the power supply had been improved and you can see that from the
8 tables that I attached when I was making my presentation provided by the
9 electric transmission company of Bosnia-Herzegovina. There is a table
10 there in terms of the power supplied in 1993, and that shows that power
11 supply in 1993 was significantly increased compared to 1992.
12 Q. Thank you. And when you said "manipulation," what would the
13 motive be? Why? Why do you think that this was manipulation presenting
14 the situation in this way?
15 A. Well, probably to create an impression of a greater humanitarian
16 catastrophe and the extent to which the population of Sarajevo suffered
17 because of power shortages. I'm not denying that there were major
18 problems in respect of power supply, but I can assert that the population
19 would not have been in the situation that they were in had the use of
20 electric energy been more rational.
21 Q. Last question. On page 3 I'm afraid that this has to do with
22 idiomatic differences. Did you say that you were not doing anything --
23 are you saying that you were unemployed or underdeployed or what?
24 A. Oh, I did have a job but I was not sufficiently being used.
25 Q. Thank you, Dr. Skoko.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.
2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. That concludes your evidence, Dr. Skoko.
3 And on behalf of this Tribunal and the Chamber, I would like to thank you
4 for your coming to The Hague to give it. Now you are free to go.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
8 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President. If I could very quickly
9 raise a follow-up to an issue I mentioned last Thursday. I indicated to
10 Mr. Robinson and I would indicate this to the Court, that was the
11 continuing concern over documents considered to be or intended to be used
12 as associated exhibits or other exhibits for statements that were not
13 translated. And at that time I explained the nature of the problem to
14 the Court, both in this particular instance and as it had persisted in
15 other circumstances for quite some time. And I underscored the
16 Prosecution's many efforts to prevent that from delaying the proceedings
17 in any way on -- and Mr. Robinson also commended the Prosecution for its
18 efforts in that regard. On Friday Mr. Robinson asked me to advise
19 whether under the circumstances and in light of his indication that
20 understanding the situation he would not object to any requests by the
21 Prosecution to continuance, whether we intended to do so. I advised him
22 that we would proceed but that I would want to indicate to the Court the
23 efforts it took by the Prosecution to do so. And I mention that not to
24 invite further commendation from the Court or Mr. Robinson, but simply to
25 note that this really is straining the Prosecution's resources at some
1 point and notwithstanding our desire to do everything possible to keep it
2 impeding the proceedings. We will not be in a position to move forward
3 and some delay will result. And the answer will not be simply moving the
4 next witness forward or taking a witness from further on in the week
5 because that will only shift the preparation problem, obviously. So I
6 bring that to the Court's attention. I hope very much that it won't
7 arise again, but in the event it does I thought the Court needed to know
8 the backdrop.
9 [The witness entered court]
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Tieger. I fully understand. The
11 Chamber appreciates your genuine effort for the smooth conduct of the
12 trial. Thank you very much.
13 Yes, Mr. Skiljevic. Good morning to you. Would you make the
14 solemn declaration, please.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
16 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
17 WITNESS: SONIBOJE SKILJEVIC
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Please be seated and make yourself
20 comfortable. Before you commence your evidence, Mr. Skiljevic, I must
21 draw your attention to a certain rule of procedure and evidence that we
22 have here at the Tribunal, that is, Rule 90(E). Under this rule you may
23 object to answering any question from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecution, or
24 even from the Judges if you believe that your answer might incriminate
25 you. In this context, "incriminate" means saying something that might
1 amount to an admission of your guilt for a criminal offence or saying
2 something that might provide evidence that you might have committed a
3 criminal offence. However, should you think that an answer might
4 incriminate you and as a consequence you refuse to answer the question, I
5 must let you know that the Tribunal has the power to compel you to answer
6 the question. But in that situation the Tribunal would ensure that your
7 testimony compelled in such circumstances would not be used in any case
8 that might be laid against you for any case save and except the offence
9 of giving false testimony. Do you understand what I have just told you,
10 Mr. Skiljevic?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understood.
12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
13 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.
14 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
15 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Skiljevic.
16 A. Good morning.
17 Q. Did you give a statement to my Defence team?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Just please let us observe a break between question and answer,
20 and I would also ask you to reply at a moderate pace so we needn't repeat
21 everything and so that everything may be recorded.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see Exhibit 1D7913
23 in e-court.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Skiljevic, please look at the screen. Do you see your
1 statement on the screen in front of you?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did you read and sign the statement?
4 A. I read and signed it.
5 Q. Thank you. Please let us see the last page. Is this your
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you. Does this statement faithfully reflect what you said
9 to the Defence team?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you. If I were to ask you the same questions live today,
12 would your replies be essentially the same as those in the statement?
13 A. They would be the same replies as in the statement.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I seek to tender
16 this statement and some other documents. Some of them I will lead live
17 especially those that haven't been translated and I will have some
18 additional questions.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
20 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. I apologise for the state of
21 the associated exhibits with this witness. We made our best efforts to
22 have the documents translated and had sent them to translation, but there
23 was a large number of them and not all of them were completed on time.
24 So we are offering 28 associated exhibits, 27 of which are not on our
25 Rule 65 ter list and we would ask that they be added as we hadn't
1 interviewed the witness at the time that list was submitted. And I can
2 list for you either the ones that we're seeking to tender or the ones
3 that we're not seeking to tender that were on our list, whichever you
5 JUDGE KWON: I don't know how to -- I have a list of 39 items.
6 So it means that you dropped 12 items?
7 MR. ROBINSON: Yes. The difference is that there are some items
8 that have already been admitted and other items where we have no
10 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Let's deal with the 92 ter statement
11 first. Could you take a look at paragraph 19 and 38 -- no, that's okay.
12 It's not identical. Fine.
13 Shall we take a look at 20 and 37, para 20 and another example is
14 21 and 40. The last couple -- the last batch seems to be identical
15 except for the passage that it was discussed earlier. Twenty-one and 40.
16 It would not be a big deal even if there are some duplicative paragraphs,
17 but please bear in mind in the future.
18 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE KWON: Do you have any objection, Ms. Gustafson? Good
20 morning to you.
21 MS. GUSTAFSON: Good morning, Your Honours. To the statement,
22 no, there is no objection.
23 JUDGE KWON: We'll admit the statement.
24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D3331, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE KWON: So can I hear from you for the items you have
1 objection to?
2 MS. GUSTAFSON: Yes, Your Honour. I'm not sure to what extent
3 they overlap with the Defence's decision on what they will be tendering
4 under 92 ter and not, but the documents to which we object because there
5 is no translation are 1D06847 --
6 JUDGE KWON: I think they are going to --
7 MS. GUSTAFSON: Okay.
8 JUDGE KWON: -- be led live in my understanding. Do you confirm
9 that, Mr. Robinson?
10 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President.
11 MS. GUSTAFSON: Okay so then there are only two other objections,
12 1D50014, referenced at paragraph 43. The exhibit appears to consist of
13 two documents.
14 JUDGE KWON: Could you repeat the number.
15 MS. GUSTAFSON: Certainly. It's 1D50014.
16 JUDGE KWON: In which there are allegedly two documents?
17 MS. GUSTAFSON: That's what appears to be the case and the
18 comments at paragraph 43 seem to concern only the first of those
19 documents. So our objection is to the second of the documents which is
20 the second page in the B/C/S. Then --
21 JUDGE KWON: Just -- I take it there will be no objection to the
22 admission of the first one?
23 MS. GUSTAFSON: No.
24 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson?
25 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, we can -- we don't object to
1 admitting that and Dr. Karadzic can lead the second one live if he
3 JUDGE KWON: If necessary.
4 MR. ROBINSON: Yes.
5 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
6 And your next objection, Ms. Gustafson.
7 MS. GUSTAFSON: My next and my last is 1D50021, referenced at
8 paragraph 50. The comments at paragraph 50, in our submission, don't
9 actually explain what this document is and that is not self-evident from
10 the document itself. So in our submission this is another document that
11 should be covered live. Thank you.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I agree. That does not form an indispensable
13 and inseparable part of the document. Before I deal with some specific
14 items, can I have a general question for you, Mr. Robinson or
15 Mr. Karadzic, that there are many documents that relates to the
16 time-frame after the incident that allegedly took place in KP Dom in the
17 indictment. To be more specific, the indictment deals with the
18 time-frame from May until October of 1992, but many of the documents are
19 dealing with events in 1993, 1994, or even 1995. So how are these
20 documents relevant to your case, Mr. Karadzic?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Your Excellencies, this is a
22 penitentiary institution and we see how the authorities treated detained
23 persons. Moreover, civilians are also hosted there, civilians waiting to
24 go to the Muslim-controlled part of the city. If the indictment is about
25 a systemic approach, then this is something to be taken into
1 consideration. And the prison was only established in the summer of
2 1992, a few months after the start of the war.
3 JUDGE KWON: While I can understand -- but the Chamber is of the
4 view that we will not admit the following documents: 1D50025 and
5 1D50026. This deals with either shelling nearly three years after the
6 indictment or similar things. As such, the Chamber is of the view they
7 are not relevant. And finally -- the same goes to the 1D50029. So we'll
8 not admit those three. And finally, as regards 1D50028, the Chamber is
9 also of the view that does not form an indispensable and inseparable part
10 of the statement. Further, I'm not sure it is one of the documents you
11 are tendering. It is not consistent with our practice to admit a third
12 party's statement as an associated exhibit. But I will check with the
13 Registrar whether he can follow.
14 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
15 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Gustafson.
16 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honour. I apologise for not
17 rising earlier, but I had to remind myself of the precise wording of the
18 indictment which I've just looked up. The Prosecution's operative
19 indictment has a footnote to the schedule for Kula prison under
20 Schedule C and the footnote states that the KP Dom Butmir served as a
21 detention facility until at least 28 October 1994. So the Prosecution
22 has extended the time-period that it initially alleged for the operation
23 of this prison. I would add that it's the Prosecution's case that the
24 Kula prison does form an integral part of the exchange commission
25 functioning and process and has relevance to that issue as well which
1 persisted throughout the war. Thank you.
2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you indeed.
3 I would like Registrar to liaise with the parties outside the
4 courtroom to - how to say? -- to arrange the documents to be admitted as
5 associated exhibits. And the associated exhibits -- how many items are
6 there, Mr. Robinson, according to your calculation?
7 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, there were 28 associated exhibits
8 that we were offering. You've taken away four of those that we intended
9 to offer, so that would be --
10 JUDGE KWON: Four or five?
11 MR. ROBINSON: Well, by my count those three that you mentioned
12 as being irrelevant and the one that you mentioned is not an inseparable
13 part of the --
14 JUDGE KWON: And Ms. Gustafson raised another one.
15 MR. ROBINSON: Actually, there were two objections from
16 Ms. Gustafson that you've sustained those, so that's true. So there
17 would be 22 associated exhibits being offered.
18 JUDGE KWON: That will be helpful. So those will be admitted and
19 be given number in due course. Very well. Please continue,
20 Mr. Karadzic.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will now read out the
22 summary of Mr. Skiljevic's statement in English, after which I will ask
23 some additional questions.
24 [In English] Mr. Soniboje Skiljevic was deputy manager and by the
25 end of 1992 he became manager in Butmir penal and correctional facility
1 in Kula near Sarajevo. He stayed on that position until the end of 1995.
2 On 6th of April, 1992, Mr. Skiljevic arrived at work at the KPD
3 to be told that the convicts had been released on the orders of the KPD
4 chief, Fadil Kreho. At that time, Mr. Skiljevic was a counsellor at the
5 KPD. Tanks were seen that day about 100 metres away from the gate of the
6 KPD. The next day when Mr. Skiljevic returned to KPD -- returned, the
7 KPD had been taken over by the army.
8 The war situation was increasingly deteriorating and he learned
9 that Muslim extremists were threatening to kill him he decided to flee
10 with his family. The army put his wife and children on to trucks and
11 transported them to safe Serbian territory. Mr. Skiljevic returned to
12 work on the farm at the KPD and soon after he did, military police moved
13 in the KPD. The movements of the workers were restricted and records
14 were kept of the comings and goings.
15 On 30th of June, 1992, Butmir KPD became a closed institution and
16 Soniboje Skiljevic was appointed chief of the administrations department
17 at the service for the correction of convicted persons. After this the
18 police then vacated the premises. It was explained to all employees that
19 the prisoners were to be treated extremely humanely. He was unaware of
20 the grounds for the detention of the prisoners as that was within the
21 jurisdiction of the military. He was only concerned with the operations
22 and prison records were kept. Prisoners were taken by the army outside
23 of the KPD to complete work. Soniboje Skiljevic does not know where the
24 prisoners were taken; however, he is aware that the prisoners did not
25 complain about how they were being treated and most requested voluntarily
1 to be sent to work.
2 All activities Soniboje Skiljevic carried out were reported to the
3 MUP and military security organs. The employees at the KPD were told
4 that the people staying were prisoners of war and that they should be
5 taken care of, fed, and given medical assistance, not to be mistreated.
6 The prisoners were served three meals a day after the
7 establishment of the Butmir KPD. There were no complaints about the
8 quantity or quality of food. Those completing labour were given a
9 further light meal. The same food was given to employees and officials
10 at the KPD and those with dietary requirements were catered for. None of
11 the prisoners went hungry. Medical assistance was provided to the
12 prisoners in a timely and appropriate manner. Prisoners were often
13 referred to other medical centres of the hospital depending on the
14 illness or injury.
15 The building where prisoners of war were kept had -- have been
16 furnished with mattresses, beds, pillows, and two blankets per person.
17 The block was heated by a boiler; however, this was destroyed in a Muslim
18 shell attack and therefore furnaces were set up to heat every room.
19 Soniboje Skiljevic categorically claims that during the period
20 when he was the acting KPD warden, the prisoners of war and other
21 prisoners were not subjected to torture, mistreatment, physical or other
22 abuse, humiliation, and the like. He also maintains that there were no
23 women with children at the KPD. The prisoners of war were visited on a
24 number of occasions by the International Red Cross who brought them
25 further provisions and letters. Also the KPD was visited by
1 Radovan Karadzic, an international representative, and many foreign
2 reporters and journalists. They observed that -- the living conditions
3 of the prisoners, dining area, and quality of food as well as speaking to
4 the prisoners.
5 Some prisoners were killed or wounded in the shelling of the area
6 around the KPD and the farm. The KPD was shelled several times from the
7 Muslim positions during the war. A number of prisoners were also killed
8 at labour sites outside the KPD by shells and sniper bullets fired from
9 the Muslim side. In December 1992 Butmir KPD housed 130 prisoners of war
10 from the military detention camp at Manjaca. Soniboje Skiljevic raised
11 the issue of the housing of prisoners of war to the
12 Government of Republika Srpska but no solution was found to this issue.
13 [Interpretation] This was a short summary. Let me now ask some
14 questions to Mr. Skiljevic.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Can you tell us when I visited the Kula prison and how often was
17 I there, to the best of your knowledge?
18 A. You visited the Kula prison on the 9th of August, 1992. You were
19 with a delegation and a significant number of international journalists
20 and domestic journalists.
21 Q. Thank you. Do you remember who accompanied me, what kind of
22 delegation it was?
23 A. Paddy Ashdown was with you and other high dignitaries. There
24 were about 60 to 70 journalists from all over the world and cameramen
1 Q. Thank you. Was there anyone from the Red Cross in that
3 A. Yes. There were people from the Red Cross and other
4 international organisations.
5 Q. Thank you. Was that visit announced to you; and if so, how long
6 in advance?
7 A. As far as I remember, it was a Saturday. The then-warden,
8 Mr. Lalovic, was not present because he had left to his -- to the town
9 where he was born to visit his parents. Mr. Mandic was there instead and
10 an hour or an hour and a half before your arrival we were informed. We
11 also slept at the KPD because we had fled Sarajevo and didn't have other
12 accommodation. So we were on the premises. Minister Mandic only said
13 that there will be high-ranking delegation to visit the KPD. We didn't
14 know that you would be there, but then around 3.00 you arrived with the
15 journalists and other guests.
16 Q. Thank you. On that occasion, just like before, did you get or
17 did you hear any objections or suggestions from Mr. Ashdown or the
18 Red Cross? Did they complain to anything as being irregular or not in
19 line with the regulations?
20 A. There were no objections from the delegation. They visited the
21 sleeping areas of the prisoners of war, or rather, they went to the
22 building because both prisoners of war and convicts of Serbian ethnicity
23 slept in -- on the same premises. We didn't get any complaints to their
24 safety or their nutrition and we were often visited by the Red Cross. I
25 could even say once in two months. They talked to the prisoners of war
1 that [as interpreted] our presence, not even the police could be present
2 during those interviews and they would write down messages for the
3 detainees' families and they also gave them cigarettes and clothes and so
4 on. After interviewing the prisoners of war they always met me who was
5 the chief of the institution. And from the day I became warden, that is,
6 the 16th of December, 1992, there you had no objections about the
7 conditions or anything else at the KPD.
8 Q. Thank you. Were they able to talk to journalists and
9 Lord Ashdown without the presence of the KP Dom staff on this one
11 A. They could freely talk to anyone, the journalists or
12 Mr. Paddy Ashdown or personally with you. Whoever wanted to do so could
13 talk freely without any problems and state whatever they wanted to say at
14 the moment.
15 Q. Thank you. During this visit, did any of them inform me about a
16 criminal offence or object or complain about the way they were being
18 A. As far as I know, no one did.
19 Q. Thank you. Did you -- I'm waiting for the interpretation. Did
20 you know what my position and the position of government organs was about
21 the way the prisoners of war and the prisoners were to be treated in
22 accordance with the Penal Code, if they were prisoners who committed
23 other crimes?
24 A. Your position was - and that was emphasised to us - that we had
25 to take care about security, that we had to act in a decent manner, that
1 we could provide everything in terms of food and everything else to the
2 prisoners of war because they were there temporarily and they were
3 actually under the jurisdiction of the exchange committees and on any day
4 they could be sent to a different part of Sarajevo or somewhere else,
5 wherever the exchange commission decided they were to be sent.
6 Q. Thank you. In your statement you mentioned there were also
7 civilians who were waiting to cross over into Sarajevo. You mention a
8 village from the Rogatica area. Can you tell us, if you remember, did
9 you have civilians from the Vrbanja village which administratively
10 belonged to the Sokolac municipality but borders the Rogatica
11 municipality. I'm talking about September 1992 -- excuse me, 1994 and
12 1995, that was Vrbanja.
13 A. As our co-operation was continuous with the exchange commission
14 and as early on at the beginning of the war it was called the exchange
15 bureau. In 1993 the commission for exchange was formed by the
16 Government of Republika Srpska and it was chaired by Dragan Bulajic.
17 Whoever needed to be exchanged was exchanged through the commission. The
18 chairman of the commission and other persons could not influence any
19 exchanges. As for the civilians that you asked me about, the agreement
20 was between the Muslim and Serbian civilian and military authorities that
21 for security reasons and on request of these persons to be transferred to
22 Sarajevo so that they would join their families, those persons were
23 transferred from Rogatica to the KP Dom. They were isolated in a
24 different wing from other persons, both Serbs, Muslims, and Croats, that
25 is to say persons who had already been accommodated at the KP Dom before
1 then. UNHCR and other international organisations saw to it that these
2 persons would be transported on a daily basis in their vehicles whenever
3 the conditions were met across the Brastvo Jedinstvo bridge into
4 Sarajevo. So these persons would stay with us between five days and two
5 months, in effect until all such persons were exchanged. And the
6 commission for exchange was solely responsible for this, and this was
7 called joining or linking up the families.
8 Q. Thank you. Did they enjoy the same treatment as prisoners of war
9 or were they detained there on the basis of criminal reports?
10 A. They were separated from prisoners of war and they were treated
11 in a decent manner such as everyone else who was accommodated at the
12 KP Dom. We treated them humanely and in accordance with the
13 Geneva Conventions.
14 Q. Thank you. Who provided food to them and how did you manage to
15 do that? Did you manage to support them? Did anyone help you to feed
16 these people?
17 A. Even before the war and immediately after the break-out of the
18 armed conflict, the KP Dom had an economy unit which was called
19 Privrednik. So during the war it was set up on your orders because your
20 order was to organise economic activity in all enterprises. We produced
21 eggs for consumption. We had around 25.000 egg-laying hens. We had some
22 pigs as well. We also grew vegetables. We had workshops and so on.
23 This was the only semi-open type of the KP Dom in Bosnia-Herzegovina. As
24 the warden, I requested from the high commissariat and the ICRC and the
25 Government of Republika Srpska and I always received positive answers and
1 a sufficient contingent of food for the needs of this institution.
2 Q. Thank you. You mentioned that the time that people spent there
3 varied. What was the interest of the KP Dom to have these people stay
4 shorter or longer and what would the duration of their stay depend on?
5 A. The KP Dom had no interest whatsoever. It was only a burden for
6 us, a burden for the institution to have these people staying with us
7 even if they stayed for a single day because we had sufficient people who
8 were under investigation by the military organs and others who were under
9 investigation or who were punished by the district court, but they stayed
10 with us because that was the agreement of two commissions. Whenever the
11 security situation allowed for them to cross over without any hindrance
12 into Sarajevo, they would leave.
13 Q. Thank you. You mentioned in your statement, for example, in
14 paragraph 21, there were some problems with treatment and providing
15 medication. Can you tell us how you resolved such issues?
16 A. We had good co-operation with the Kasindol hospital which is
17 located close to the KP Dom, about 3 kilometres away. We also had
18 military medical outpost in Lukavica about 300 metres away, then the
19 military hospital Koran, one department, then the Sokolac military
20 hospital. In all these institutions we treated the prisoners of war who
21 had been sentenced or just detained. Some of the detainees and prisoners
22 of war were in the Blazuj facility that could accommodate around 70
23 persons. These persons were treated at the Zice hospital in Blazuj. We
24 received the medication and everything else from the Kasindol hospital
25 and from the military hospital. And as even from before the war the
1 medical service that we had was quite developed. We had our own medical
2 staff and a makeshift supply of medication. We were provided great
3 assistance by the International Red Cross, the health department.
4 Practically every month they would come to visit us. They would perform
5 the triage and also send us some medications and medical supplies.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I did not
8 understand whether document 1D06847 has been admitted with paragraph 40,
9 or should I call it up in connection with paragraph 21?
10 JUDGE KWON: Is this not one of the documents where the English
11 translation is lacking?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes. Then I would like
13 to call up this document, 1D6847. If we could please see it in e-court
14 so that I could ask the witness to tell us what this was.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Can you please look at this document and tell us what it
17 represents as we still do not have the translation. You may even read
18 out the text if you prefer.
19 A. "The Ministry of Justice, correctional facility Butmir, number so
20 an so, date the 16th of December, 1993, Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, the
21 4th Medical Battalion, subject: Request for borrowing medication. As at
22 the moment we have more than 320 [as interpreted] prisoners of war and
23 people who are under investigation by military and civilian authorities
24 as well as people who are sentenced by civilian authorities at the moment
25 and we are unable to provide medication to all of them. We address you
1 in order to provide us with a contingent for our makeshift medical
2 supplies depot."
3 Q. I believe that it was "220" and in interpretation we heard "320."
4 A. Yes, 220.
5 Q. And you are asking to borrow medical supplies from the medical
6 battalion of RSK. Did you receive that when you requested medical
7 supplies in this form?
8 A. Yes, we requested from Dr. Ranko Subotic to provide this, as he
9 worked then at the military hospital Koran and on several occasions he
10 also came to do check-ups of prisoners and also to see what were the
11 conditions under which they lived and worked.
12 Q. Thank you. Can we please scroll down so that you can tell us
13 what is written in hand above his signature. No, scroll up rather than
14 scroll down.
15 A. It says "approved," and there's a signature and we can see that
16 it says Dr. Ranko Subotic, hospital.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can it be admitted?
19 JUDGE KWON: We'll mark it for identification.
20 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI D3354, Your Honours.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. In your statement you say that the premises in the KP Dom, the
23 facilities as a whole, were satisfactory. It was satisfactory for what
24 number of detainees, can you tell us anything about that? How many
25 toilets and bathrooms were there? How big were the rooms and so on?
1 A. The KP Dom was renovated in 1988 and two new buildings were made
2 including all the necessities, everything that was necessary for persons
3 who were sentenced. Up until the war no investigations were conducted
4 and persons who were under investigation were not accommodated there.
5 Only persons who had been sentenced for petty crimes. At the
6 Butmir KP Dom, as Kula is actually called, more than 450 detainees could
7 be accommodated, and at the department which was outside of the KP Dom
8 Butmir in Blazuj, Ilidza, or as it was popularly known Igman, it could
9 accommodate 80 detainees. The facility that was used immediately at the
10 beginning, we all called it D2 facility or D2 building, had 14 rooms with
11 toilet and shower blocks in one wing and 14 in another. So 28 in total.
12 We also had other facilities there, three other facilities, workshops.
13 And across the road from the KP Dom at a distance of about 300 metres we
14 also had our economy unit called Privrednik where we had facilities used
15 to produce eggs for consumption. There was a restaurant and makeshift
16 depots. Within the KP Dom we had workshop and we used to make concrete
17 items. The administration building included the medical service and an
18 infirmary. So at any moment we could receive 450 persons and around 17
19 other department outside of the KP Dom. So 470 persons on the whole if
20 we did not want it to be crowded.
21 As for the D2 wing, in the left wing we held persons who were the
22 category of captured persons or prisoners, prisoners of war, and in the
23 other wing on the ground floor there were sentenced persons and on the
24 floor there were persons who were under jurisdiction of the army and who
25 were being investigated into. Across the road from these buildings,
1 before the war we had the reception department, that is to say where they
2 would be processed by professionals once they were admitted and where
3 more than 100 persons could be accommodated. In this new building, the
4 other one I mean, we had rooms where the detainees could spend the day, a
5 library and some other rooms.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have 1D5009.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. You talk about the facilities that you had at your disposal in
9 paragraph 34 of your statement.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So could we please have 1D50009
11 [Realtime transcript read in error "1D5009"]. We do not need the
12 statement. We need this one, 1D50009.
13 MR. ROBINSON: We're looking at 5009 so you need to put another 0
14 in there.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Mr. Skiljevic, are you familiar with this document? I see down
17 here the stamp of the Tribunal. Do you know what this document is?
18 A. This is a copy of the cadastral plan of the KP Dom. The document
19 was drawn up in 1996 and the document with all the accompanying documents
20 was seized from the KP Dom in 2003 and sent here to the international
21 Tribunal at The Hague. All the documents that were found at the KP Dom
22 we received an order from the Ministry of Justice that we had to hand
23 over all the documents from the war-time period to investigators. So
24 they came to visit us. They photocopied everything and they marked all
25 the documents and sent them.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please see the following
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Could you please tell us what it is that we see here. Are these
6 some collective bathrooms, sinks? Where is this?
7 A. This is at D2, the facility that I spoke of a moment ago where
8 POWs were and also where convicts were and persons under investigation.
9 These were sinks, bathrooms, that were the same size upstairs and on the
10 ground floor in both areas, on the ground floor and upstairs.
11 Q. Thank you. Can we have the next page now.
12 Can you tell us what this means, room 36 square metres, what that
13 is all about?
14 A. These are rooms that were in these pavilions and this is the
15 number of square metres of these rooms, 36.9 square metres, then there is
16 a parquet floor in each and every one of them and then in the hallway
17 there was also the office of the guards, or rather, the security who were
18 there. And then there was also a room that was a sort of living room,
19 64 square metres. So the ground floor and the first floor were the same
20 on both sides and the rooms were practically the same size, and that is
21 where beds were, blankets and mattresses that were used before the war
22 and that is what was used during the war too.
23 Q. Thank you. In which periods and for how long did you have more
24 than 400 prisoners of war, convicts, prisoners, et cetera?
25 A. How should I put this? When the KP Dom was established we
1 admitted about 200 prisoners of war; that is to say, in fact the KP Dom
2 on the 1st of August, 1992, had a plan for its security service. In the
3 meantime every day the commission for exchanges was involved in the
4 exchange of these POWs. So in December we received a group on the
5 15th of December, 1992, 131 POWs who were transferred from Batkovic to
6 us. And from Manjaca when it was disbanded they had been transferred to
7 Batkovic and stayed there for two days. They were brought to us on the
8 15th of December, 1992, during the night and we were told, since members
9 of the exchange commission accompanied them, we were told that they
10 should spend the night there and that they were supposed to go for an
11 exchange, Tarcin, Celebic. So that group of persons stayed with us for
12 more than a year. The exchange was not carried out, the one that had
13 been agreed upon for the 20th of December, 1992, an all-for-all exchange.
14 The Muslim side did not observe that agreement.
15 Already in the month of February and March, all persons who
16 happened to be at the KP Dom were exchanged except for that group. They
17 had hailed from Grapska these 130. So they were transferred to Rudo to
18 be exchanged for the Serbs from Gorazde and then they were returned to
19 us. So they were exchanged only in 1994. In fact, they were allowed to
20 go to Sarajevo. So in facility D we never had more than 200 POWs and
21 Serbs who were under investigation, about 80, and then there were about
22 30 convicts as well. If, perchance, the number of persons under
23 investigation would be increased, then we would transfer the convicts to
24 the Igman quarry, that is to say the facilities that had functioned
25 before the war and during the war. As for the other facility in 1994 we
1 had a number of ethnic Croats there. They fled across the Miljacka, they
2 left their weapons behind, and they surrendered to the Serb forces at
3 Grbavica on two occasions. At the end of 1993 about 20 of them fled and
4 about a group of about 50 of them at the end of 1994. They were
5 transferred after being dealt with by the military authorities for two
6 months to our facilities to the other building. They stayed there for
7 about three months until the exchange that was carried out that took them
8 to Kiseljak. I can say quite openly that in one period of time there
9 were three warring armies at the KP Dom at one point in time: Bosniaks,
10 Serbs, and Croats, and that there were never any unpleasant situations.
11 On the contrary, they worked together at the farm, within the compound,
12 in the workshop, in the dining hall. Their behaviour was very proper,
13 the behaviour of both, that is.
14 Q. Thank you. These Croats, were they exchanged or were they
15 released unilaterally? Who came from Kiseljak? You said that they were
16 exchanged. Did any Serbs come from Kiseljak?
17 A. They were allowed to go to Kiseljak but no Serbs from Kiseljak
19 Q. Thank you.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted,
22 JUDGE KWON: Although it's -- would not be a big problem, can we
23 see the first page and can we zoom in the ICTY stamp. It says -- upper
24 part. Yes. It says this is document consisting of two pages. How come
25 do we have four pages? Do you have any explanation, Mr. Karadzic?
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, Excellency. But it's the
2 Prosecution that prepared this and let us see which pages have ERN
3 numbers and let's try to find our way. Only the first page seems to have
4 an ERN number, none of the others. Perhaps the format is big. Perhaps
5 the page size is different. Perhaps it was A3 or something like that.
6 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
7 Do you have any objection, Ms. Gustafson?
8 MS. GUSTAFSON: I'm trying to assist if I can. I'm just looking
9 at our system, but I have no objection to it being MFI'd. It should be
10 translated, in my submission.
11 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We'll mark it for identification pending
12 English translation.
13 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI D3355, Your Honours.
14 JUDGE KWON: Shall we take a break now?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We can. I assume that there was a
16 blueprint and then that is put together in a different way and that is
17 why we have a different page number.
18 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We'll have a break for 45 minutes and
19 resume at quarter past 1.00.
20 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.30 p.m.
21 --- On resuming at 1.19 p.m.
22 JUDGE KWON: For the remainder of today we'll be sitting pursuant
23 to Rule 15 bis with Judge Lattanzi being away due to her official
25 Yes, Ms. Gustafson.
1 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honour. I just wanted to inform
2 the Court that I did look into the document 1D50009, the floor plan
3 document, during the break. It is the -- the document in our system is a
4 two-page document which consists of a cover page and the first page of
5 the exhibit. So the pages 2 through 4 of the exhibit are not from the
6 ICTY document. I don't know where they come from. It doesn't appear to
7 be a problem. They do appear to relate to Kula prison. I just wanted to
8 let the Court know that.
9 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, on an unrelated note I would just
10 like to note that we have received applications for leave to respond to
11 our motions for subpoenas from General Tolimir, General Miletic, and
12 Hasan Cengic, and we don't oppose any of the leave to responds.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
14 Probably, Mr. Karadzic, you may ask the witness who drew that
15 floor plan third or fourth page. Please continue. I'll leave it to you.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Mr. Skiljevic, you remember that we leafed through those
19 additional pages. Who drew that floor plan of those rooms?
20 A. The floor plan was drawn by Brckala Nine [phoen] an engineer
22 Q. Thank you. Does it faithfully depict the situation there and
23 what is his relationship with your institution?
24 A. It's a fully faithful document and I think that all of that is in
25 accordance with the original plan because he was in charge of the
1 reconstruction of the penitentiary.
2 Q. Thank you. At some point in your --
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Actually, Excellency, would that
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Somewhere in your statement you said that for a while you were in
8 charge of the administration and reception departments of this
9 institution; is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Can you tell us how records were kept, in accordance with which
12 regulations, and can you tell us if it is valid and accessible for checks
13 and analysis?
14 A. All the documentation is valid and it was kept in accordance with
15 regulations. If we are talking about the documentation that we had
16 concerning POWs, we received these documents from military organs and
17 others, we registered the persons who came to our institution, we would
18 fill out their record forms, and then they would be released from the
19 KP Dom at some point. Every day records were kept concerning all persons
20 that were the KP Dom, what kind of work they did, where they went. For
21 example, if they went out to work, what kind of work it was; if they were
22 within the compound, what kind of work they did there; if they went for a
23 medical examination, who were the persons that went for a medical
24 examination; if they would stay in hospital for medical treatment, that
25 became part of the records too. So we had complete records for all the
1 persons that were at the KP Dom.
2 Q. Thank you. How often would you report to the ministry or someone
3 else about the numbers, about food and so on?
4 A. It is customary for persons who are in such an institution that a
5 duty policeman would bring the numerical level to the, say, head of the
6 kitchen every day and say how many meals were needed for that day. And
7 also if there were some persons who were on special diets, then food
8 would be prepared in accordance with that. So the numerical level had to
9 do with the number of persons who reported to the medical unit too so
10 that the medical officer involved could act in accordance with the
11 situation there if the person involved was supposed to go out for medical
12 treatment or to be administered medication and so on. I, as warden,
13 every day received 24-hour reports on how many persons there were at the
14 KP Dom, where they were, whether there had been any problems in the
15 KP Dom, how many persons went out for medical examinations, how many were
16 kept in hospital, and so on. The duty policeman of the KP Dom was
17 duty-bound to record all of these changes in a document that was called
18 the record for that day and that was the situation throughout the war.
19 Q. Thank you. What about the barracks, did they take part in
20 feeding their POWs, the one that you were guarding on their behalf?
21 A. We would record the numerical level, that is to say, for example,
22 on a particular day how many persons there were at the KP Dom and we
23 would inform the logistics unit, whatever it was called. They were in
24 charge of food so then we'd send our vehicle out there and then we
25 received that food from the military, say for five months or for --
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Five days.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- or a month or something like
3 that. We would prepare the food, cook it in our own kitchens since there
4 were quite a few problems with electricity. Then we would also get big
5 caldrons from them so that we could cook such large amounts of food.
6 That was for POWs and others who received their meals at the KP Dom, so
7 we had no problems whatsoever with regard to food supplies for any
8 persons there and also from the government and the commissioners we
9 received food and even from some of the UN institutions involved.
10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters --
11 JUDGE KWON: Could you start over again. Please put a pause on
12 your part as well.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have in e-court
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. That document is one that you referred to in paragraph 35 of your
17 statement so could you please interpret some of these things for us. Can
18 you tell us what this refers to? I see that there's a reference to the
19 barracks. Can you read out the handwritten part so that it could be
20 recorded in the transcript.
21 A. "Information on the number and feeding of POWs by the army.
22 Certificate certifying that at this moment at the KP Dom Butmir Kula
23 there are 295 persons who are detainees. The transport of food from the
24 barracks of Slobodan Principe Seljo shall be transported by a car of the
25 KP Dom registration number SA 250-963."
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: This was just the end of
2 the sight translation. We have not interpreted any of what the witness
3 said afterwards.
4 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Could you repeat what you said after
5 reading out this document, Mr. Skiljevic.
6 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. No, no, you're not supposed to read it out again, but you said
9 something after reading this.
10 A. We would give a certificate to the people from our supplies
11 department so that they could take the vehicle to the
12 Slobodan Principe Seljo barracks in order to get food from there.
13 Q. Thank you. Is this of relevance to us, 02-38 A-B? The
14 handwritten letters and numbers, is that of relevance to us or not? You
15 don't know what this is, or do you know?
16 A. I think that this sheet of paper was in the possession of the
17 court of Bosnia-Herzegovina and this may be some marking of theirs.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document.
19 JUDGE KWON: We'll mark it for identification.
20 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI D3356, Your Honours.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Who decided about who would be exchanged and how were you
24 informed about this?
25 A. The commission, the exchange commission, headed by
1 Captain Dragan Bulajic had exclusive authority over that. Bulajic was
2 the head of the commission. The practice was as follows: We would
3 receive a sheet of paper with the names of persons to be exchanged. That
4 sheet bore his signature and we would get it about two hours before the
5 official time of exchange. Upon reception of this list we were
6 duty-bound to give those persons back their belongings if they were
7 deposited and then with their personal effects these persons would get
8 ready and in most times vehicles by the International Red Cross or the
9 UNHCR or even sometimes SFOR vehicles would arrive and those persons
10 would be taken out of the KPD on board those vehicles as agreed by the
11 two exchange commissions. Mostly that's how it went when groups were
12 exchanged. When individuals were exchanged then we would get a list
13 which persons of Serbian ethnicity would be exchanged or possibly
14 somebody would be released without being exchanged. And during that
15 interval of two hours roughly representatives of the ICRC would come and
16 interview the persons in question.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we get 1D50019.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. You speak about this document in paragraph 48 of your statement.
22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I think we received the English
23 translation of this.
24 MR. ROBINSON: Would it be sufficient then to admit it as an
25 associated exhibit?
1 JUDGE KWON: I think -- my intention was to admit this.
2 MR. ROBINSON: Great. Thank you very much.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. The names needn't be
4 interpreted so a translation exists.
5 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, otherwise I would instruct the
6 Registry to admit this.
7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D3358, Your Honours.
8 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, also 1D50027 was a late translation
9 that we were intending to lead live, but if you've also been willing to
10 admit that --
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes, the Chamber is fine with it.
12 MR. ROBINSON: Okay.
13 JUDGE KWON: Shall we give the number then.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D3359, Your Honours.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. How many employees did you have and what were their professional
18 A. We had about 105 staff in all. At the KPD there were about 70
19 and the others were on the list of the economy unit. Most of our staff
20 were police officers or guards and there were also educational staff or
21 foremen working with them during the manufacturing process and there were
22 also some staff who worked in the kitchen and other -- did other
23 auxiliary work.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let us see 1D50014.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Please explain if this is the situation on that day, 45 persons
3 under investigation, POWs 88. And what do items 4 and 5 mean, eight
4 persons arrived at the KPD, two persons left. And item 7 reads seven in
6 A. This is the report of the duty officer of the KPD on
7 22 March 1993. On that day 45 persons under investigation were at the
8 KPD, 88 POWs, in all 133. Arrivals eight, departures two. There were no
9 escapes and seven were in hospital. Two Serbs were released from
10 detention and another two were brought in. One Muslim was brought from
11 hospital. Five Muslims were brought from Foca, here the KPD of Foca is
12 meant for the purpose of an exchange scheduled for 23 March 1993,
13 notified warden and guard commander, and there is a signature of the duty
14 officer. This was common practice. We can see from this document that
15 persons were taken to us from other institutions and spent some time at
16 our facility to be exchanged. Since we were close to Sarajevo where most
17 exchanges took place, that is, at the airport and at the
18 Brastvo Jedinstvo bridge. And therefore persons were brought from other
19 penitentiary facilities. They would spend some time waiting because the
20 other side also had to prepare for the exchange. Then the two
21 commissions would compare the lists and once they agreed the exchange
22 took place.
23 Q. Thank you. Can we see the following page. It says this person
24 here, Faruk, stayed longer. He arrived at 1700. How did it happen that
25 this person stayed longer? He is mentioned under item 5. Actually, it's
1 the first remark from above.
2 A. This is a register of persons at the economy. It shows where
3 they worked on that day, either in the kitchen or the mess room or
4 somewhere else. This person worked at the poultry house where eggs were
5 produced. He arrived at 1700, or rather, 1720 and stayed longer because
6 he was feeding the chickens.
7 Q. So they could stay longer if they wanted to?
8 A. Yes. That was possible. We didn't have any problems with that
9 because we actually didn't guard them. We didn't provide security.
10 Q. It also says in handwriting Ante Grizelj is released and so on.
11 What does that mean?
12 A. Pursuant to the order of the security organ --
13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please start over from where
14 I broke off.
15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Skiljevic, could you repeat your answer. Please
16 wait a moment before you start giving the answer, please. Could you
17 repeat your answer, please.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Pursuant to the order of the
19 security organ of military post number so and so Grizelj, Ante, was
20 released to reception point Sokolac in order to deal with his status.
21 Ante Grizelj came from Sarajevo and crossed the lines. It follows from
22 this that he was probably being processed by the army and they were
23 trying to resolve his status in contacts with the commission. There were
24 more cases like this, namely, that the security organ who on behalf of
25 the corps was in charge of exchanges to see what they would do with such
1 persons, whether they would be let go to another country, what kind of
2 documents they would get, and so on and so forth.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document.
5 MS. GUSTAFSON: No objection.
6 JUDGE KWON: Given that this is a separate document, date is
7 different from the first page, we'll -- the first page was admitted
8 already as an associated exhibit and the second page will be admitted as
9 a separate exhibit.
10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D3360, Your Honours, and for the
11 record the first page is Exhibit D3357.
12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. How did the hospital treat your detainees? Once their treatment
16 finished did you get any kind of documentation? Did you have information
17 about the state of their health?
18 A. Our co-operation with the medical services was excellent. No
19 matter what the category of the persons at the hospital was, we regularly
20 visited and contacted the doctors to learn about the state of their
21 health and we would also receive reports if they had to stay in the
22 hospital longer. We didn't really provide security to these persons at
23 hospital, certainly not when it comes to prisoners of war. We did
24 provide security for Serbs who were under investigation.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D50013, please.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. You speak about this document in paragraph 42. Did this apply to
3 civilians in transit too waiting to cross over to the other side?
4 A. It was characteristic that persons who had come to join their
5 families -- I don't know for what reason, but they may have had or they
6 may have lacked medical services from what -- where they had come from.
7 A great percentage of these persons went to Sarajevo and many documents
8 speak to that.
9 Q. Thank you. The exchange or even the release for that exchange
10 did it go smoothly once agreement had been reached or was there stalling
11 and problems?
12 A. There were problems, quite a few. And our institution also had
13 problems with that because when they tell you that a group would arrive
14 and spend the night and eventually they stay for three months. I
15 mentioned a group of 130 persons from Manjaca who were brought to us to
16 be exchanged immediately but that exchange only took place in 1994. So
17 this shows how slowly those exchange commissions worked and somehow they
18 failed to harmonise the exchange lists, the lists of persons. So there
19 were cases when 30 people would be exchanged from the KPD and only three
20 persons were -- arrived from the other side. On the
21 29th of December, 1992, there was agreement and they -- we insisted that
22 it be an all-for-all exchange. 210 for 205 persons who were at the
23 Butmir KPD or other facilities at the RS, they were to be exchanged for
24 persons held by the BH army but the exchange didn't take place because
25 the two sides were unable to harmonise the lists. The Muslim side was
1 unwilling to release Serbs taken prisoners from their own camps for the
2 persons in our detention because they considered them persons from other
3 areas. So these persons remained at the KPD for over a year.
4 Q. Thank you. Who insisted on the all-for-all principle? You were
5 mentioned, us and them, but who was it who actually insisted?
6 A. Our side assisted on the all for all principle.
7 Q. You mentioned me?
8 A. You were informed by Mr. Dragan Bulajic, the commission
9 president. Before that 30 persons from the KPD had been exchanged for
10 only four Serbian KPD from the silos. And this was considered to be a
11 ruse. Mr. Bulajic informed you and you insisted that an all-for-all
12 exchange be made. When Manjaca was closed down, the people came to us by
13 way of Batkovic.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document.
16 JUDGE KWON: We'll mark it for identification.
17 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI D3361, Your Honours.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. And now the last document. Can you please tell us how the jobs
21 were assigned and was there a difference between the work done by Serbian
22 detainees on the one hand and Muslim and Croatian detainees on the other?
23 A. As far as the work and occupational therapy go at the KPD, there
24 were labour units with the Ekonomija where convicts were sent and people
25 under investigation and where also Muslim and Croatian POWs worked.
1 There was no discrimination and there are documents to show that. They
2 also worked in the kitchen together and in the workshops and in the
3 chicken farm. Serbs, Croats, and Muslims worked together. I said
4 earlier that no situation of conflict was recorded. I was never informed
5 of any problem between these persons. They worked together and shared
6 the same faith.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please see 1D50021.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. And tell us what this is on page 1. 1D50021. We can remove the
10 previous document and zoom in on this -- oh, I see that there is a
11 translation. Can you tell us what this is about. It says work site,
12 kitchen, and so on. Are these the places where they worked?
13 A. Yes. There was a daily register of the persons working at the
14 individual work sites. Some people went to the kitchen, some to the
15 boiler room or the warehouse, the library, car repair shop, and then a
16 list of persons going to a work site is made and the hour of their
17 departure and the hour of their return is recorded.
18 Q. We see at the library there was Srebrov and there were others,
19 but we can see that there were Serbian, Croatian, and Muslim names;
21 A. Yes.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. We can see the name of Zukic under dining hall. What is this
25 person's ethnicity?
1 A. Huso Zukic, he's a Bosniak.
2 Q. Next page, please. Oh, I'm sorry, we see prisoners of war at the
3 top of the page and this is the page for the convicts; right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. That's a handwritten heading; right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document.
9 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Gustafson.
10 MS. GUSTAFSON: No objection.
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive it.
12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D3362, Your Honours.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellencies. I
14 have no more questions for Mr. Skiljevic at the moment.
15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson and Mr. Karadzic, having heard kind
16 explanation of Ms. Gustafson, the Chamber is of the view that the 1D50029
17 which was referred to in para 57 can be admitted as an associated
18 exhibit. Shall we give the number for that.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D3363, Your Honours.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And 27, if I understood properly,
21 has also been admitted; correct?
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes. What we didn't admit is 25 and 26.
23 Very well. Mr. Skiljevic, as you have noted, your evidence in
24 chief in this case has been admitted in most part in writing, that is,
25 through your written statement in lieu of your oral testimony. And now
1 you'll be cross-examined by the representative of the Office of the
2 Prosecutor. Do you understand that, sir?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Gustafson.
5 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honours.
6 Cross-examination by Ms. Gustafson:
7 Q. And good afternoon, Mr. Skiljevic.
8 A. Good afternoon.
9 Q. I just want to clarify a point you made in your statement. As I
10 understand it from paragraphs 4 and 5 of your statement between the
11 6th of April, 1992, and the 18th of May when you returned to Kula to work
12 on the farm, you were never at the Kula prison compound although you went
13 to the prison farm a few times. Do I understand that correctly?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Okay. And it's also clear from paragraph 5 that from the
16 18th of May until the 1st of August, 1992, when Kula began to function
17 under the Ministry of Justice your position is that your movement was
18 restricted. You worked on the farm, you slept on the farm, you could not
19 enter the administration buildings or other facilities. And since you
20 always stayed and slept at the farm you do not know what went on within
21 the prison compound during this period of time. I'm going to put it to
22 you that those assertions are untrue, that in fact you were inside the
23 Kula prison compound at least twice after the 6th of April, 1992, and
24 before the 18th of May, where you met with police and Kula prison
25 officials. That from the 18th of May when you began working at the farm
1 you didn't sleep at the farm but you in fact slept at the medical
2 building of the prison. And you actually have substantial information
3 about what was happening in the prison compound prior to the time that
4 the Ministry of Justice took over its operations in August, including
5 knowledge that Mico Stanisic, Momcilo Mandic, and Tomo Kovac visited Kula
6 during this time. That's right, isn't it?
7 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President, that question is so
8 complex and compound I think it's impossible for the witness to answer
10 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Could you break down?
11 MS. GUSTAFSON: Sure. Why don't we go to 65 ter 24324 and we can
12 start at page 77 of that document and I'll break it down.
13 Q. Now, you recall, Mr. Skiljevic, being interviewed by the
14 Office of the Prosecution of this Tribunal in December 2003 at the
15 premises of the Kula prison; right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. This is a transcript of that audio-recorded interview. It's only
18 in English so I will read the relevant parts to you. The question in the
19 middle of page 77 is:
20 "And after that, did you come back to Kula ... in the course of
21 April 1992?"
22 "A. In April 1992, during the course of April 1992, I came here
23 a couple of times. This facility had already been taken, for about
24 50 per cent of it was taken. My office was broken into. A police member
25 Supic Branko was in it. He worked at the airport before and we came from
1 the same village. The duty officer of Dom, so to say, of the ex-Dom,
2 were unknown persons to me, except for the chief Mladen Krstojevic, who
3 was in the kitchen. When I came here on the 20th of April, I found
4 police commander Vujicic Radenko, who informed me that they had sent a
5 car to pick up the prison warden, the Dom warden, and if there's time ...
6 I waited and at 13.30 Lalovic Ratko came."
7 And then the question was:
8 "Just one more question: You say it was on the 20th of April.
9 Is that correct?
10 "A. Yes."
11 And if we could go to the next page of this interview.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ask -- may you pose a
13 question, please, because otherwise we will be getting a very compound
14 question again.
15 MS. GUSTAFSON: It will not be a compound question. I'm just
16 covering the statements where the witness talked about his presence in
17 April 1992 and there is one more perhaps two more short extracts.
18 Q. "And how come you remember perfectly that it was on the 20th of
19 April, 1992? Was there anything specific on that day that makes you
20 remember that day perfectly?"
21 Was the question. And your answer is:
22 "I just know. I remember everything perfectly. 21st of April at
23 8.00 a meeting was held with 20 employees of KP Dom ..."
24 And at the bottom of page 79, you're asked:
25 "Where did the meeting take place on the 21st?"
1 And at the top of page 80 you say:
2 "On the ground floor of this building in a room."
3 And you're asked:
4 "And has that building got a name?"
5 And you answer:
6 "Admin building."
7 Mr. Skiljevic, contrary to what you stated today, you were
8 clearly present at the Kula prison compound at least twice during April
9 1992, on the 20th and the 21st; right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And if we could go to page 90 of this document, you're asked:
12 "So you remain in the premises of KP Dom Kula as of the
13 18th of May, 1992, until when?"
14 And you answer:
15 "I stayed from the 18th of May until the 2nd of December, 2003."
16 And you're asked:
17 "If I understood correctly you would be living in KP Dom Kula?"
18 And you answered:
19 "I was living in KP Dom Kula, in the premises of the medical
20 centre until the end of August 1992, and from then I was living in an
21 apartment of the republic inspector Kemo Alisahovic until 2.5 years ago.
22 The apartment is 30 metres away from KP Dom."
23 So again, Mr. Skiljevic, in 2003 you were unequivocal when you
24 told the OTP that you were living in the prison's medical centre from the
25 18th of May until the end of August, not at the prison farm as you now
1 claim; right?
2 A. The premises of the prison farm are at a distance of around
3 100 metres. There is a building which was also called the health centre.
4 It is true that there is another health centre in the administration
5 building. We slept at the health centre at the Ekonomija, that is to say
6 the farm. It is also correct that I came there on the 6th of April, that
7 on the 7th of April I came and got the car, and that I came to ask what
8 was to be done because at the order of the warden Mr. Kreho Fadil, the
9 entire security service left to work at the central prison in Sarajevo.
10 And the remaining personnel I was chief of the correctional service were
11 left in the lurch. We didn't --
12 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you. My question was simply about where
13 you were living and you've answered that. I don't need these additional
14 details right now. Now if we could go to page 97 of this document you
15 were asked:
16 "We were discussing the fact that you remember having seen
17 Mr. Mico Stanisic come to KP Dom Kula. Do you remember if it was at the
18 time when the SJB Kula under the control of Milenko Tepavcevic was in
19 charge of the premises?"
20 Your answer:
22 And a few lines down:
23 "You physically saw him in the premises?
24 "A. Yes, he was in the office.
25 "Q. In which office?
1 "A. With Tepavcevic.
2 "Q. You mentioned that you didn't know him from before and you
3 were not introduced to him, so how come you can be certain that it was
4 Mr. Mico Stanisic being with Tepavcevic?"
5 And you answered:
6 "Continuously being here I saw and learnt from talking to other
7 employees who would come and who was present there."
8 And on the next page you're asked:
9 "Such as, for instance?
10 "A. Kovac Tomo, Minister Mandic, his deputy."
11 You were asked:
12 "What was his name?
13 "A. Nenad Radovic ..."
14 And then you refer to meeting a number of judges. And at
15 page 108 you said:
16 "So after you come back on the 18th of May, 1992, you mentioned
17 that you had contact with minister of justice and his deputy Radovic.
18 Did they have an office here in KP Dom Kula?
19 "A. Minister Mandic had one."
20 And at page 109 you say -- you were asked:
21 "In which building?"
22 And you answer:
23 "In the admin building."
24 And you're asked:
25 "And do you know since when he had an office in the admin
2 And you say:
3 "I think since mid-June, I'm not sure about the date."
4 Now, at paragraph 5 of your witness statement you said that you
5 did not know what went on within the KP Dom compound between the
6 18th of May and August of 1992, but as these passages I read out to you
7 indicate you have substantial information about what was happening at the
8 prison compound during that time; right?
9 A. No.
10 Q. You don't deny that all this information about Mr. Mandic
11 visiting, Mr. Stanisic visiting, Mr. Mandic having an office in Kula
12 prison, Mr. Kovac visiting Kula, that information was all correct that I
13 read out to you, right, that's information you learned at that time?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please be given more
15 specific dates or times and Kula is also a big location. Whether it was
16 the prison compound or the ministry or the public security station
17 because they're all different. It's as if someone said Scheveningen and
18 Scheveningen is an entire suburb.
19 MS. GUSTAFSON: Well, that's ridiculous. This was a prison and
20 in any event the passages I read out were clear as to the time and indeed
21 the locations.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But, excuse me, I would ask
23 Ms. Gustafson to ask whether the public security station was a part of
24 the prison, whether the ministry was part of the prison, whether the
25 administration building was located within the compound because it's all
1 confused. On page 85 he says, or rather, page 95 of the interview he
2 says he doesn't know when he saw Stanisic. He doesn't know.
3 MS. GUSTAFSON: These are all questions Dr. Karadzic can raise in
4 re-direct. I'm putting this witness's own words to him and asking him to
5 confirm that they're accurate. I think that's completely fair in the
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I agree. Please proceed.
8 MS. GUSTAFSON:
9 Q. Mr. Skiljevic, the passages I read out to you about
10 Mr. Stanisic's presence, Mr. Kovac's presence, Mr. Mandic's presence,
11 Mr. Mandic's having an office in Kula as of mid-June in the
12 administration building, that's all correct information, information that
13 you had at the time; right?
14 A. Mandic was the justice minister, and at the time the expert teams
15 worked together because as early as on the 16th of June Mr. President
16 signed that penal and correctional institutions were to be formed and
17 courts. So it wasn't only Kula. It was about applying the regulations,
18 the daily schedules, and so on, that is to say establishing law and order
19 so that the KP Dom would begin to operate. And another thing, the labour
20 unit Privrednik never stopped because some of us in fact worked in this
21 economic or labour unit. It's true that he had a temporary office in the
22 administration building, but we didn't have any other offices because the
23 police station Kula was located there. They took over these offices up
24 until the 1st of August, 1992, when they moved into another building
25 which was within the KP Dom. And the other facilities that you mentioned
1 that I said in my statement we couldn't reach, it's true that we couldn't
2 reach these facilities. They are registered as facility D2, where
3 persons were accommodated and it's about 70 metres away. And within the
4 Kula compound itself, there are seven buildings. And as Ekonomija we had
5 four buildings.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 MS. GUSTAFSON: I would tender the last four pages I put to the
8 witness, pages 97 to 98 and 108 and 109.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
10 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll admit it.
12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D6277, Your Honours.
13 MS. GUSTAFSON:
14 Q. Now, Mr. Skiljevic, I'm going to ask you to focus very carefully
15 on the specific questions that I ask and I will try to keep my questions
16 specific as much as possible. Now, you mentioned in your testimony
17 earlier today at page 64 that investigators from this Tribunal went to
18 the Kula prison in 2003 and photocopied a number of documents. Now, you
19 were still the Kula prison warden at that time and you, in fact, assisted
20 the investigators in accessing the documents that they copied; is that
22 A. I received a notice, in fact, or an order from the Ministry of
23 Justice that it was my duty as the warden to hand over all the documents
24 and show them for inspection. And as far as I know, these were
25 investigators from ICTY who came there and of course we gave them all the
1 documents for inspection without any problems. They copied something,
2 they took away something else. And after a while they would return the
3 documents because there were quite a lot of documents and that is all
5 Q. Okay.
6 MS GUSTAFSON: We will be looking at a number of those documents
7 the investigators copied and for the information of the Court and the
8 Defence the ERN ranges of those documents are 0297-6517 through to
10 Now, if we could go to 65 ter 1D50004, which I presume has an
11 exhibit number at this point.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D3343, Your Honours.
13 MS. GUSTAFSON:
14 Q. Now, Mr. Skiljevic, this is one of the documents that is
15 discussed at paragraph 28 of your statement and as I understand it this
16 is a document that you, in fact, provided to the Defence. Is that
17 correct; and if so, where did you get this document, please?
18 A. I received this document from the president of the commission for
19 exchange, Mr. Bulajic.
20 Q. Okay. I would like to hand to you as well as to the Court and
21 the Defence a hard copy of this document which is attached to a copy of
22 Exhibit P1127, which is the identical document with some slight
23 difference in terms of the handwritten markings that are on it. If I
24 could ask for the assistance of the usher, please.
25 Now, Mr. Skiljevic, you can see that the first document, the one
1 that's also on our screen, has some handwritten markings on it, in
2 particular the words 10.000 referring to the number of Muslim civilians
3 who had passed through Kula at that point - this is near the end of the
4 first paragraph - has been crossed out and the words "exactly 119
5 civilians" has been written in by hand. And there's also some
6 highlighting and underlining on this document that are not on the ICTY
7 exhibit. So I'd like to ask you who made these markings to this
8 document, if you know?
9 A. This document was used before the court of Bosnia-Herzegovina as
10 a piece of evidence provided by me. Witness Dragan Bulajic who testified
11 wrote an incorrect piece of information here, that there were 10.000
12 people and he then refuted that before the court of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
13 He said that he signed it without looking because I was the one who
14 intervened by saying that this piece of information was not correct.
15 Q. Okay. So was it you who crossed out the words "ten thousand" and
16 added in the words "exactly 119 civilians" to this document?
17 A. I don't know exactly if it was him or me, but there was a dispute
18 about this and I then intervened in court and I said that there were
19 around 119 or 120 civilians. That was the exact number of the civilians
20 who had come there, and he agreed with that.
21 Q. So you say you don't know exactly if it was him or me. You're
22 saying it may have been you who crossed out the words "ten thousand" and
23 added the words "exactly 119 civilians" or it may have been Mr. Bulajic.
24 When was this change made to the document? Was this something that was
25 done in preparation for your trial at the state court in Bosnia?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. So you can confirm that the -- and, in fact, the second
3 document in this -- in these two documents I handed to you, as I said, is
4 the same document without these handwritten markings and it is one of the
5 documents that the OTP copied at Kula prison in 2003. Also based on that
6 and your evidence just now it's clear that at the time this document was
7 received at Kula prison, it did not have these handwritten markings.
8 That was something that was done much later; right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, at paragraphs 13 and 36 of your statement
11 you refer to Dr. Karadzic's visit to Kula prison in August of 1992, and
12 you've discussed that as well in your testimony earlier today. And you
13 said earlier today that Mr. Mandic told you that a high-level delegation
14 would be coming to the prison just an hour or an hour and a half before
15 the delegation, in fact, arrived. And you said that Mr. Mandic did not
16 tell you that Dr. Karadzic would be in that delegation, and that was at
17 page 56. That's not true, Mr. Skiljevic. In fact, Mr. Mandic told you
18 two to three days in advance that a delegation headed by Dr. Karadzic
19 would be coming to Kula prison; right?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Mr. Mandic also told you that a lot of journalists would be
22 coming with the delegation, didn't he?
23 A. No.
24 Q. And Mr. Mandic also instructed you to prepare decisions to
25 release some prisons for Mr. Karadzic to hand out during that visit and
1 you did that; right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. If we could go to page 173 of 65 ter 24324. This is again
4 from the interview you gave to the Prosecution in 2003. And you state:
5 "I was informed by the minister of justice, Mr. Mandic, that a
6 delegation would be coming headed by the President of the Republic and
7 the members of the international community and a great number of
8 journalists would come to visit this Dom. Well, the exact date, I think
9 it was the beginning of August, in the period of time between 1500 hours
10 and 1600 hours. He told me to prepare a number of decisions, that a
11 number is to be released on parole, and that it would be suitable,
12 appropriate, that those decisions are handed over to them by
13 Mr. President."
14 And you're asked:
15 "Did you prepare these release orders or release certificates?"
16 And you answered:
18 And then at page 175 you're asked:
19 "I would like to come back to the visit of Mr. Karadzic."
20 You mentioned that you were informed by Momcilo Mandic that there
21 would be that visit.
22 "A. Yes.
23 "Q. How many days before or how many weeks before?
24 "A. I think two or three days, not more."
25 Mr. Skiljevic, as you told the OTP in 2003, Mr. Mandic told you
1 about this visit two or three days before it happened. He told you that
2 Mr. Karadzic himself would be there and he told you that there would be a
3 large number of journalists present; right?
4 A. It is not correct.
5 Q. Let me ask you this: Mr. Mandic told you to prepare decisions
6 for release of prisoners which you did, and in the video of this visit
7 which is P2840, we can see Dr. Karadzic handing those decisions out. You
8 would have had to have known about this visit at least a day or two in
9 advance in order to select prisoners and prepare their release decisions;
11 A. No. Mandic didn't tell me. It was another person who told me,
12 but this other person did not say that Dr. Karadzic would come. In that
13 interval, I wasn't even the warden.
14 Q. And Mr. Mandic told you in preparing these decisions to release
15 prisoners to select prisoners who were elderly and in poor health, didn't
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, during this visit Dr. Karadzic was interviewed and he told
20 "We released only people who are not likely to be mobilised
22 Now, I take it that you when you were preparing these release
23 decisions had no idea whether or not the elderly and sick prisoners whom
24 you selected for release had ever been mobilised by the other side; is
25 that right?
1 A. I cannot remember that.
2 Q. Okay.
3 MS. GUSTAFSON: I would like to tender pages 173 and 175 of this
4 interview, either as a separate number or as part of the P6277, whichever
5 the Court prefers.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll add them to P6277.
7 MS. GUSTAFSON:
8 Q. Mr. Skiljevic, at paragraph 6 of your statement you said:
9 "I did not know the legal grounds for the detention of these
10 people as this was exclusively within the jurisdiction of the military.
11 They decided who was going to be assigned where and they decided their
13 And at paragraph 7 you said that when you took over the KP Dom
14 prisoners from the jurisdiction of the police "we were told that they
15 were prisoners of war and that the prisoners of war were under the
16 authority of the military." Now, these people you refer to as prisoners
17 of war they were for the most part brought to Kula prison by the army;
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And although you made it clear in your statement you weren't
21 involved in determining the status of these prisoners, you do know that
22 they were overwhelming of Muslim and Croat ethnicity; right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And although they were labelled prisoners of war, you also knew
25 that many of these people were not prisoners of war, they were simply
1 people who lived in Serb-held territory and belonged to the other ethnic
2 groups; right?
3 A. I don't know what you mean specifically.
4 Q. Well, let's look at what you said in 2003 about this. If we
5 could go to page 146 of this document that is still on the screen. And
6 you're asked:
7 "You've been working in the prison system for quite many years.
8 Could you give me a definition as to what is a prisoner of war?"
9 And you answer:
10 "You mean the Geneva Convention?"
11 And you're asked:
12 "I mean what is your knowledge of the definition of the prisoner
13 of war and at the time what that meant to you?"
14 And you answer:
15 "Theory and practice are two different things. My logic tells me
16 bringing people from one area of another ethnic group is not a prisoner
17 of war."
18 And you're asked:
19 "So that's what was happening in practice?"
20 And you answer:
22 And then you're asked:
23 "So all civilians from specific areas who were non-Serbs would be
25 And you answer:
1 "Unless they fled. Or if they had not gone to front lines. Or
2 another example, during combat activities they surrender to one or the
3 other side. There were such cases as well. Third, 70 Croats are fleeing
4 over Miljacka river from Sarajevo to Serb territory. And after the
5 military processing, they come to prison here and they leave here, live
6 and sound, to be exchanged or without the exchange. The fourth issue,
7 from KP Dom Srbinje, Foca, they come here, stay here for a while, and the
8 exchange takes place. And at the end from all the prisons they come
9 here, and central exchange is taking place. Dayton is completed, and end
10 the war. No prisoners of war. Question mark."
11 Now, in 2003 when you spoke to the OTP you agreed that what was
12 happening in practice was that non-Serb civilians, people who you did not
13 consider to be prisoners of war, were being arrested and detained; right?
14 A. Civilians were not arrested or detained. Rather, they were
15 brought to the KP Dom for family reunification, if you are referring to
16 the area of the municipality of Rogatica.
17 Q. Well, we'll look at some of those documents.
18 MS. GUSTAFSON: Now I'd like to tender this page as well as part
19 of P6277.
20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. It will be also added.
21 MS. GUSTAFSON: And if we could go to 65 ter 1D50018, which again
22 has an exhibit number but I'm not aware of what that is at the moment.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D3350, Your Honours.
24 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you. And if we could go to page 10 of the
25 English and page 6 of the B/C/S.
1 Q. Now, Mr. Skiljevic, you stated at paragraph 47 that these
2 documents and one of which is on the screen now showed that Kula helped
3 in humanitarian cases and facilitated civilians crossing and family
4 reunion. So I take it that all the people listed in this document and
5 the others that come together with it were civilians; is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, the people on this particular document with the surname
8 Zahiragic, we can see there's six females and four males, some of them
9 are quite young and one woman in particular is quite elderly, where were
10 they -- these people with the surname Zahiragic from?
11 A. From Rogatica.
12 Q. Okay. The subject of this -- do you know, were they all related
13 to each other? Do you know that? They all have the same surname.
14 A. Omer Zahiragic is the husband of Meira Zahiragic. Their daughter
15 is Serveta Zahiragic, I think, because she was a prosecution witness
16 before the court of Bosnia-Herzegovina and that's how come I know,
17 because these people are my age.
18 Q. Okay. And the subject of this letter is reuniting families. Can
19 you tell us what were the specific details of the family reunification
20 that was going on here? Who was being reunified with whom?
21 A. I did not study this subject matter, you see, because -- well,
22 from experience I know that as far as family reunification is concerned
23 some families left earlier on, perhaps at the beginning of the war,
24 whereas these families lived in Serb territory throughout the war and
25 they expressed the wish to go to Sarajevo. That was done by the
1 exchanges commission, UNPROFOR, UNHCR, liaison officers, without us being
2 involved. We were just there to provide good services if they were
3 supposed to stay with us or spend the night there until they went to
4 Sarajevo. That was our help, if you will, to these families in some way.
5 Q. So what you're saying is you actually don't know specifically
6 what's going on here, who is being reunited with who. With respect to
7 this particular family you don't know those details; is that right?
8 A. I know that the family went to Sarajevo. This document shows it
10 Q. Okay. If we could go to the next page, please, which is another
11 similar document referring to mostly people from the Planja family and
12 two people from the Zahiragic family. Now, these people with the surname
13 of Planja, where were they from, were they also from Rogatica?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And this letter is dated the 24th of January, 1995. How long
16 have they been kept at Kula?
17 A. From five days to two months. I cannot be more precise. You can
18 tell by these dates. One group left and then the paperwork had been
19 done, and after that the second group would leave and so on. And they
20 all really left.
21 Q. Well, one of your own documents that, in fact, Dr. Karadzic
22 showed you earlier, D3362, work site lists, indicate that Rasema Planja
23 and Azra Planja and Amela Planja, the first three names on this list were
24 all working on the farm on the 26th of November, 1994. So at least these
25 three prisoners would have been in Kula for at least two months; right?
1 A. I said that I didn't know the exact duration. It could be
2 between five days and three months. So depending on when an individual
3 was exchanged.
4 Q. And these civilian prisoners were also put to work like the other
5 prisoners; right?
6 A. It is characteristic of civilians that since these people were
7 farmers in Rogatica municipality they didn't want to stay indoors and
8 they wanted to go out and work so as not to be bored. So they milked
9 cows and what have you and worked together with the convicts that had
10 been brought from Foca.
11 Q. Okay. If we could go to the next page of this document which
12 lists five individuals with the surname of Katica. The Chamber has
13 received evidence that some people with this surname were transferred
14 from Vrbarija village in Sokolac, but a village near Rogatica to Kula.
15 Were these people with the surname Katica from Vrbarija?
16 A. They must have been from the area of Rogatica, Sokolac,
17 thereabouts. But to ask me about the specific village ...
18 Q. Okay. Well, the Chamber has received evidence a Sokolac SJB
19 document stating that 61 civilians from Vrbarija were transferred to Kula
20 on the 29th of October, 1994, and has received evidence that people with
21 the name Katica were among them, and that's D3189 and P6235. So would
22 you agree that these individuals from Vrbarija were -- sorry, this
23 document is dated the 23rd of January, 1995. These individuals had been
24 held at Kula for almost three months; is that right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Okay.
2 MS. GUSTAFSON: I'm about to move on to another relatively
3 lengthy document so if Your Honours would permit me to break at this
4 moment. I would also like to provide the witness with hard copies of
5 65 ter 24211 and 24236. These are Kula prison records that are somewhat
6 lengthy and I would like to give the witness a fair opportunity to look
7 at them and review them. And if he would be so kind as to do that out of
8 court this afternoon I would appreciate that.
9 JUDGE KWON: Any objection, Mr. Robinson?
10 MR. ROBINSON: No, Mr. President, that sounds like a very good
12 MS. GUSTAFSON:
13 Q. Mr. Skiljevic, we'll be -- I'll be asking you about these
14 documents most likely tomorrow, although the schedule's a little up in
15 the air. So if you could be so kind as to review them and familiarise
16 yourself with them, I think you may find that they are familiar to you, I
17 would appreciate that. Thank you.
18 A. Does a question follow now?
19 Q. No, I'm sorry, Mr. Skiljevic. I should have been more clear.
20 It's time for the court to break today so I will be asking you about
21 these documents and other documents when we reconvene.
22 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Ms. Gustafson.
23 Mr. Tieger.
24 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President. At the outset of this
25 session Mr. Robinson noted that the Defence has no objection to the
1 request for leave to respond concerning the subpoenas. That's the
2 Tolimir, Miletic, and Cengic subpoenas. I just wanted to note that the
3 Prosecution also has no objection.
4 JUDGE KWON: Then the Chamber will hereby issue the oral ruling.
5 The Chamber grants the request by Hasan Cengic filed today to respond to
6 the accused's motion to subpoena Hasan Cengic filed on the
7 21st of March, 2013. The Chamber further grants the request by
8 Radivoje Miletic also filed today to respond to the accused's motion to
9 subpoena Radivoje Miletic filed on the 2nd of April, 2013. And I'll also
10 request the Registry to communicate these oral rulings to the relevant
12 Mr. Skiljevic, we'll adjourn for today and continue tomorrow
13 sometime in the morning or in the afternoon, after the next witness's
14 evidence is over. I'd like to advise you, Mr. Skiljevic, not to discuss
15 with anybody else about your testimony while you are staying here at
16 The Hague while you are giving evidence. Do you understand that, sir?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 JUDGE KWON: The hearing is adjourned.
19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.47 p.m.,
20 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 9th day of
21 April, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.