1 Wednesday, 10 April 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone. Good morning,
7 Mr. Skiljevic.
8 WITNESS: SONIBOJE SKILJEVIC [Resumed]
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, where were we? Yes. We were in the middle of
11 cross-examination by Ms. Gustafson. Good morning to you, Ms. Gustafson.
12 Please continue.
13 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you. And good morning, Your Honours.
14 Cross-examination by Ms. Gustafson: [Continued]
15 Q. Good morning, Mr. Skiljevic. I understand from your evidence so
16 far, and correct me if I'm wrong, that it is your position that there
17 were no non-Serb civilians detained in Kula prison except for the Muslim
18 civilians from the Rogatica area who were there in 1994 and into early
19 1995; is that right?
20 A. There were some civilians, a small number of civilians. They
21 were the ones who had fled into our territory, that was how the military
22 authorities had formulated that. In practice they had crossed over into
23 our territory. Some of them had just strayed and then they were kept
24 before triage so that intelligence would be gathered from them until they
25 were sent to their territory, and then the majority of cases it was the
1 exchange commissions that sent them there. They released them not to
2 exchange them for others but just to set them free, to release them for
3 security reasons only.
4 Q. Okay.
5 MS. GUSTAFSON: Could we have 65 ter 24211, please.
6 Q. The document that's going to come up on your screen,
7 Mr. Skiljevic, is one of the two documents - I see you have it in front
8 of you - that I asked you to look at while we were breaking, and I'd now
9 like to ask you a few questions about it. This is another of the
10 documents that the Prosecution copied at Kula prison in 2003. And this,
11 I take it, is a notebook that records daily events at Kula prison between
12 the 3rd of January, 1993, and the 3rd of November, 1993; is that right?
13 A. That's right.
14 Q. And these records would have been kept by your prison staff; is
15 that correct?
16 A. That's right. It was the security service that kept them.
17 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could go to page 2 of the English and
18 page 18 in the B/C/S.
19 JUDGE KWON: I'm told, Ms. Gustafson, that English translation
20 has not been uploaded.
21 MS. GUSTAFSON: I'll look into that. It was when I had looked at
22 it before. I'll just check.
23 MR. ROBINSON: It's showing "denied" on my screen.
24 MS. GUSTAFSON: I will just try to re-release it and see if that
25 works. It should be working now. Well, Your Honours, it should be
1 working as far as our system is concerned. We are going to print it and
2 try to use it on the ELMO instead.
3 JUDGE KWON: Why don't we proceed with B/C/S.
4 MS. GUSTAFSON: Certainly.
5 Q. Mr. Skiljevic, page -- we are at page 18 of the B/C/S. At the
6 bottom of that page it says received at the detention facility as per
7 military command, Mirjana Ugljesic and Fatima Bajramovic. Now, these
8 were two non-Serb female detainees brought in by the military
9 authorities; right?
10 It might be easier if you just look at the screen rather than
11 trying to find the page in the hard copy.
12 As these records state, Mirjana Ugljesic and Fatima Bajramovic,
13 those were two non-Serb female detainees brought in by the military;
15 A. No. Mirjana Ugljesic is of Serbian ethnicity. She was in the
16 detention unit and proceedings were conducted with regard to her, and she
17 remained in the KP Dom later on because she was convicted.
18 Q. Fatima Bajramovic, she was a Muslim; right?
19 A. Yes. In our prison, Kula, there were four convicted women of
20 Muslim ethnicity and three convicted women of Croatian ethnicity who were
21 transferred to our institution when the women's department of the KP Dom
22 in Foca was closed down. They had all been convicted to long sentences,
23 ranging between ten and 14 years.
24 Q. Okay. If we could go to page -- sorry, 81 of the B/C/S. If you
25 look at the top of the page, the top third of the page, this entry
1 indicates that military police from Foca brought five Muslims for
2 exchange: Two older men, born in 1930 and 1937, and three teenage girls,
3 born in 1977 and 1978. And they were brought by the military policeman
4 Zoran Samardzic. Now in your statement at paragraph 43, you referred to
5 the report -- sorry, this is an entry for 21st of March, 1993. You
6 referred to the duty officer report for the 21st and 22nd of March, 1993,
7 in your statement at paragraph 43; that document is D3357. And that
8 document also states that five Muslims were brought from Foca for the
9 purpose of an exchange, scheduled for the 23rd of March, 1993. Now, the
10 two documents are referring to the same group of people, right, because
11 they both state that there are five Muslim prisoners, they both state
12 that they are from Foca, and they both state that they are being brought
13 in for exchange on this date; right?
14 A. Persons who had been taken prisoner and were held at the Foca
15 prison were brought to our institution on several occasions. Whether it
16 was this group that arrived then or if it was another one but I remember
17 quite well that on the 21st of March, these persons were brought, had
18 spent the night in our institution, and then the following day they were
19 taken for exchange to the airport by the exchange commission. Sometimes
20 they were brought in larger groups, but only to be exchanged. Some of
21 them stayed for a day, some for a longer period such as one month or
22 more. They would stay at the KP Dom until the exchange was completely
24 Q. Okay. Could we go into private session for a moment?
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
1 MR. ROBINSON: Ms. Gustafson, the English is now available, so if
2 you give us the page number we can follow.
3 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, we are now at page 15 of the English.
4 [Private session]
22 [Open session]
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we are in open session.
24 MS. GUSTAFSON:
25 Q. Mr. Skiljevic, in your statement at paragraph 43, referencing the
1 duty officer report for this same day that noted the detention of these
2 five prisoners, you said that this shows that POWs in the Butmir KPD were
3 exchanged for Serb captives held in Muslim camps.
4 Now you must have known that these three teenage girls and two
5 older men were not POWs, they were Muslim civilians who were being
6 detained and then exchanged; right? You must have known that.
7 A. No. As the prison warden, it's not true that I must have known
8 that. It was not a description of my duties. They were the ones who did
9 it, the military security, the security organ, that is to say, and the
10 exchange commission. They were in charge of that and they took them to
11 be exchanged. I did not hold talks with the commission president.
12 Amor Masovic, for example, I never even met him, nor did I make lists or
13 go to meetings with SFOR and other international organisations, such as
14 the ICRC and so on, to compile lists and decide who would be exchanged
15 and who wouldn't and who was a civilian and who was a POW.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could go back into private session again
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
20 [Private session]
11 Page 36929 redacted. Private session.
22 [Open session]
23 MS. GUSTAFSON:
24 Q. Mr. Skiljevic, one more question on this topic before we move on,
25 you've given me very formalistic answers about jurisdiction and
1 authority, but you were the prison warden at the time. You saw these
2 people coming and going, people like the teenage girls we just saw.
3 I would think that any thinking human being would question this entire
4 process of detention and exchange and whether it was about prisoners of
5 war, as you're asserting, or whether this was just about getting Muslims
6 and Croats out. Didn't those questions ever cross your mind when you saw
7 the kinds of people being detained and exchanged at your prison?
8 A. Yes. I did think along those lines. And perhaps over time
9 I might publish a book about Kula and Kula as a prison, but as someone
10 who was head of the institution appointed on 16th of December, 1993, when
11 I took over the duties and the POW unit which had been formed earlier, it
12 wasn't formed by the Ministry of Justice, that is to say the civilian
13 authorities, but rather the Ministry of Defence. The rules and the
14 instructions have been signed by Bogdan Subotic, general and minister of
15 defence rather the minister of justice, Momcilo Mandic or Jovo Rosic, who
16 was my superior as the minister. So if I mentioned the example that the
17 minister personally came to visit the prison - that was Mr. Rosic - and
18 he did not want to visit, just the detainees, the civilians, and the
19 detainees, only those who were under the jurisdiction of the district
20 court, and that I as the warden needed to inform him that there were
21 others there as well, but they didn't want to discuss that at all.
22 And at our meetings of the collegium of the ministry, we would
23 inform them about the problems that we as the wardens had with various
24 categories that were brought to the KP Dom. We had had enough even of
25 the Serbs who were being brought. Those were the reasons why we didn't
1 get involved into any analyses and we didn't look into those persons'
2 files, we didn't use psychologists or other professional staff to work
3 with such people because according to our plans, our authority, our
4 jurisdiction we were not allowed to do that. Privately I could talk with
5 anyone if I wanted to collect some information, but not nor official
7 Q. Just to clarify something in your answer, you mentioned visits by
8 the minister of justice, Mr. Rosic, and you said:
9 "... I as the warden needed to inform him that there were others
10 there as well, but they didn't want to discuss that at all."
11 Are you stating there that you were -- you informed the minister
12 of justice of your concerns about civilians being held in the prison but
13 he didn't want to discuss that; is that correct?
14 A. That's correct. At meetings we also pointed out that we had
15 major problems, the problem was not that they were accommodated there but
16 how to food them and providing heating, provide health care, all sorts of
17 problems, and we had this burden. We had to see how to do it via other
18 organs, and everybody else was saying that they were not under our
19 jurisdiction and that we wouldn't be involved. We shouldn't release
20 them, we shouldn't make any impact on the exchange or anything along
21 those lines, but just that we should work in a decent and professional
22 manner, as in 1992, the president, Mr. Karadzic, also told us at the very
23 beginning of all these developments when he came to visit us.
24 Q. I'd like to go back to the civilians from Rogatica for a moment.
25 In your interview with the Prosecution in 2003, you said from 1993 and on
1 to 1994 civilians would come - the area around Sokolac or Rogatica, for
2 example - as so to say humanitarian cases where it was said that they
3 would stay for a short period of time, that only the deal about the
4 exchange is being awaited and they would stay for a month or two waiting
5 for the transfer.
6 Now, that's right, isn't it? The civilians from Rogatica were
7 being held at Kula while the deal about their exchange was being
9 A. Yes. But I must say that we didn't want to receive those
10 civilians. We were actually tricked, the management of the KPD, because
11 the buses arrived without notice. We did have separate facilities so
12 that these people are not mixed, do not mix with the others, but we
13 received them anyway because we felt pity for them. And they would stay
14 for five, ten, 15 days, as long as it took for the UNHCR or the ICRC to
15 arrange everything for those people to go to Sarajevo.
16 Q. You said five, 10 or 15 days but the document you reference in
17 your -- sir, the document you reference at paragraphs 19 and 38, which is
18 D3335, states -- is dated the 5th of September, 1994. And it says the
19 problem, lack of funding for food, et cetera, has been particularly
20 prominent in the last three months when a number of refugees from the
21 Rogatica municipality were accommodated in the prison, mainly women and
22 underage persons.
23 So by the time you wrote the letter on the 5th of September,
24 1994, at least some of these prisoners had been there for three months;
1 A. Well, it depends from where they had come because there were
2 people who came from one village and most of them leave and then people
3 from another village arrive. It's true that I wrote a letter to ask for
4 assistance from the government and the high commissioner's office, and
5 I always asked for assistance in advance, to avoid a situation in which
6 I would be unable to feed the people, and that indeed never happened.
7 There was also a problem with electricity. We needed candles and all
8 sorts of stuff.
9 Q. I'm going to interrupt you because we are moving now away from
10 the question which was just about the time period. And if I could ask
11 you again to try to focus your answers as much as possible on the
12 specific question. Now, I am going to mover on to another topic. I will
13 come back to this document on the screen later so I won't tender it at
14 the moment.
15 At paragraph 6 of your statement you said that prisoners
16 occasionally went out to work on the orders of the military. At
17 paragraph 7 you said you did not know what kind of labour these people
18 were taken to do. And then at paragraph 51 you said as far as I know
19 such work was generally carried out in the depth of the territories.
20 Now, your own documents, the ones that are attached to your statement
21 show that you in fact had detailed information about the kind of labour
22 these prisoners did and that it was often carried out at front line
23 positions. So, for example, D3352 that you reference at paragraph 51 is
24 a military request to Kula prison asking for 15 prisoners who will be
25 tasked with building trenches and communication trenches in
1 Donji Kotorac; that's page 6 of D3352. Similarly, page 9, another
2 military request, asks for 15 prisoners who will work on building
3 trenches and communication trenches near Kuca Novakovica, and
4 Donji Kotorac. These requests indicate that you were basically informed
5 exactly what kind of work these prisoners were going to do and where;
7 A. The two examples you have read out, the locality is the site of
8 the KPD, Donji Kotorac and Kuca Novakovica. It was the -- the works were
9 about the roads.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his previous
12 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
13 MS. GUSTAFSON: Sorry, sir --
14 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Skiljevic, could you repeat your answer.
15 Interpreters couldn't hear you. If you could kindly repeat it.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] These two letters, Donji Kotorac
17 and Novakovici, they border on our land, the Privrednik unit. Behind
18 that, there is the Sarajevo airport. Of course, I'm always well
19 acquainted with this locality. But other places, for example, when they
20 were being taken to the barracks for labour, we didn't know what kind of
21 work they had to perform there, whether they would chop wood or work in a
22 kitchen or repair roads. We were only able to get feedback after
23 inquiring. Sometimes they would remain at the barracks for a month
24 without returning to the KPD. It would also happen that an exchange
25 commission arrived but the people were physically absent, they were in
1 the barracks.
2 MS. GUSTAFSON:
3 Q. We will have Exhibit P5987 referenced at paragraph 52 of your
4 statement. That document informs the Kula prison authorities that a
5 group of Muslim prisoners were building bunkers at Ozrenka Street
6 positions which were constantly under infantry and rifle grenade fire.
7 That's another example of detailed information you received about the
8 nature of the work at a front line position; right?
9 A. We had information, whether or not the people were at the front
10 line, because our facility was also very near the front line. We were
11 shelled occasionally. So although I'm not a military expert, I know that
12 the barracks -- that barracks were near and the KPD, and the farm, they
13 were all near the front line, and everything needed protection, as well
14 as the roads that went through Lukavica to the barracks.
15 Q. Okay.
16 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could have 65 ter 24236, please.
17 Q. And, Mr. Skiljevic, this is the other document that I gave to you
18 the other day to look at. It's the one with the number 24236 on the
19 cover. Now, this is the -- again this is a document that the Prosecution
20 received from Kula prison in 2003 and this document records when
21 prisoners went out to work and came back. It's the -- basically the work
22 site list for the period 24 September 1992 to the 2nd of January, 1993;
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And you've had a chance to review this. The records in this
1 notebook indicate that groups of Muslim prisoners from Kula were sent out
2 virtually every day during this time period to work at military locations
3 such as Grbavica, the Slavisa Vajner Cica Barracks, Trebevic, Zlatiste,
4 Dobrinja, and the Jewish Cemetery; right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you had said at paragraph 50 of your statement that, in
7 general, prisoners of war performed the same work as Serb convicts. Just
8 to clarify, that's only true for the work that was carried out within the
9 prison compound. It was only the non-Serb prisoners who were sent out to
10 work for the military at these military locations; right?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Well, you've had a chance to look at that notebook. As I read
13 it, the names are listed under all of these military work sites and the
14 names refer exclusively to non-Serb prisoners being sent out to military
15 locations. That's right, isn't it?
16 A. It's 70 per cent right.
17 Q. Well, I'll ask you during the next break to have a closer look at
18 that notebook. And if you can identify any names of Serbs who were sent
19 out to look at -- sorry, to work at military locations, you can inform
20 the Court of that.
21 MS GUSTAFSON: I'd like to now go to 65 ter 24211, which is the
22 same document we were looking at a few moments ago. If we could go to
23 page 4 of the English and page 23 of the B/C/S. And I would tender the
24 document we just looked at now.
25 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.
1 JUDGE KWON: Does the Defence accept that there is no Serbs that
2 had been sent out to work in military places?
3 MR. ROBINSON: No, Mr. President, that's why I think it's good to
4 admit the entire document so if there are such names it can be seen.
5 And, perhaps, I don't know if the witness will actually have a chance to
6 look at that but at least it can be in the record.
7 MS. GUSTAFSON:
8 Q. Now, on this page, Mr. Skiljevic --
9 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
10 MS. GUSTAFSON: Sorry.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we will admit it.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter number 24236 will be
14 Exhibit P6280.
15 MS. GUSTAFSON:
16 Q. Mr. Skiljevic, we're back. The document on the screen now is the
17 notebook of daily events at Kula in 1993, the one we were looking at
18 earlier. And on this page, we can see examples of military work sites
19 including the Slavisa Vajner Cica Barracks, number 7; Zlatiste, number
20 11; and Dobrinja, number 17. And under the remarks column, there are six
21 names of Muslim prisoners and that reference -- that indicates that those
22 six Muslim prisoners were taken to the Dobrinja work site; is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And again, the work site lists in this notebook indicate that
25 during this periods of time, which is 3rd of January, 1993, to the
1 3rd of November, 1993, Kula prisoners continued to be taken out to
2 military locations to work, more or less on a daily basis; that's right,
3 isn't it?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. If we could go to page 13 of the English and page 59 of the
6 B/C/S. This is the entry for the 27th of February, 1993, and we can see
7 that one of the work sites at number 13, towards the bottom of the page,
8 is Sucuri. And if we go to the next page of the English and zoom in on
9 the bottom of the page in the B/C/S, there is a remark here indicating
10 that the persons who worked at the workplace near Sucuri complained that
11 they dare not go to the above mentioned workplace because they have been
12 maltreated and physically beaten.
13 And if we could just go to the next page in the B/C/S, page 61,
14 this is the entry for the 2nd of March, and again it shows Sucuri being
15 one of the work sites at number 13. And the next page in the B/C/S,
16 again Sucuri is one of the work sites listed. It's there at number 14.
17 And I can tell you it is listed again for the following two days.
18 Now, in your statement you said that you knew that none of the
19 prisoners complained about being mistreated while working or while
20 staying at the KP Dom itself. Here your records indicate that prisoners
21 were complaining about being physically mistreated while working at
22 Sucuri. This was recorded in your prison records, and they were
23 nevertheless continued -- they nevertheless continued to be sent there to
24 work; right?
25 A. I remember this case very well. This is a settlement near the
1 barracks, the Cica barracks. There were problems there because large
2 quantities of alcohol were consumed. The people who worked there had
3 been given alcohol. This was not the first time that people returning
4 from work were intoxicated. At our facility, near the poultry farm,
5 there was also a Serbian cemetery, and people would go there to drink.
6 We warned of -- we issued warnings about that but we were not in the
7 position to punish anybody because of that. The only means that we had
8 at our disposal to keep the people to work at our KPD and not sends them
9 out. And among these people there are also psychopaths and alcoholics.
10 We informed the military authorities of this.
11 Q. Sorry, Mr. Skiljevic, these prisoners were complaining not about
12 being given alcohol, they were complaining about being maltreated and
13 physically beaten. That was recorded in your prison records, and despite
14 that complaint they continued to be sent to this work site; right?
15 A. We didn't send the same people, we sent other people to that work
16 site. I said that there had been a clash with the soldiers guarding
17 them, and both were -- both sides were drunk, and that's how the problems
19 Q. So I take it from your answers that Sucuri was a military work
20 site and the prisoners that were sent there to work, those were the
21 non-Serb prisoners; is that right?
22 A. Yes.
23 MS GUSTAFSON: I would like to tender the parts of this document
24 that have been translated so all the B/C/S pages that correspond to the
25 English, and I'll be happy to liaise with the Registrar on that issue.
1 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.
2 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We will receive them.
3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6281, Your Honours.
4 MS. GUSTAFSON:
5 Q. Now, Mr. Skiljevic, I'd like to read you another passage from
6 your Prosecution interview in 2003. And this is at page 153. You said:
7 "Upon the control by the ICRC who were always announced on time,
8 and they come to visit the persons, the prisoners of war, they want to
9 talk to them without the presence of the employees. After they talk to
10 them and distribution of some help, some things that they bring, some
11 clothes, toothpaste, soap, they would come to talk to me. Since I as the
12 head of the institution was interested in what remarks they would have,
13 the remarks would exclusively be for the fact that those persons were
14 being used for military needs, that is for digging of trenches. And my
15 answer was always -- because they never had any other remarks as to our
16 attitude or the attitude of the guard or for the food, so my answer would
17 be, Please, it is not under our jurisdiction, and I would ask you to
18 discuss those issues with military command staff because this institution
19 does not need trenches. We only assign people for farming tasks. And I
20 know for sure that those delegations would leave my office going to the
21 command staff and would talk to them over there."
22 Now, it's right, isn't it? This passage is correct. The ICRC
23 complained directly to you about the fact that Kula prisoners were being
24 used for military work like trench digging and you referred them to the
25 military authorities.
1 A. Yes. They spoke to me, and most times when somebody was injured
2 or got killed, they would say that they were very concerned about the
3 safety. It is true that I gave this answer to them but I also told them
4 that we had our orders and that they had to go to the military command at
5 the barracks and speak to the people in charge. Whether they went there
6 or not, I don't know. I never got any feedback.
7 Q. Well, in your interview you said:
8 "And I know for sure that those delegations would leave my office
9 going to the command staff and would talk to them over there."
10 Now, which command staff were you referring to? Was that the SRK
11 command, the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And in 2003 you were sure, or you said you were sure that they
14 would speak to the command staff. That's right, isn't it?
15 A. Well, they told me that they would go to the command to talk.
16 But I didn't go with to see whether they really had gone there. I said
17 where they had to go but they knew anyway.
18 MS GUSTAFSON: Okay, could we have 65 ter 24190, please.
19 Q. The document that's about to come up is another document that the
20 Prosecution copied at Kula prison in 2003. And it's an RS central
21 exchange commission document titled "information on wanted persons." And
22 it appears from the contents to be persons wanted by the Muslim side,
23 prisoners wanted by the Muslim side. If we could go to page 6 of the
24 English and page 4 of the B/C/S. There are a number of entries in this
25 document. I'd like to look at entry 8 which is right in the middle of
1 the B/C/S and near the bottom of the English. This is the entry for
2 Samir Hidic. And it has different pieces of information from different
3 dates, and there is one right around the middle of the paragraph and this
4 is right at the bottom of the page in the English. It says, "25 November
5 1993." The information for that date says, "According to report received
6 from KPD Butmir." Sorry, if we go to the next page of the English:
7 "According to report received KPD Butmir they were killed by a
8 shell on Zlatiste. Even ICRC decried Serbian side for forcing prisoners
9 to work on the first line." I think that should be front line.
10 And then the next entry says:
11 "23rd of March, 1994, according to reports received from
12 Soniboje Skiljevic, there is no new information."
13 And there is a similar entry if we go to page 5 of the B/C/S and
14 page 9 of the English. This is the entry for Mustafa Hrtic, number 11,
15 so it's in the -- it's the second entry in the B/C/S. And again, for the
16 25th of November, 1993, it says:
17 "According to KPD Butmir he was killed by a shell on Zlatiste.
18 ICRC decried Serbian side for forcing prisoners to work on the front
20 And then again, it says for the 23rd of March, 1994, according to
21 reports received from you, there is no new information.
22 Now, the -- this document shows that the Kula prison authorities
23 informed the central RS exchange commission of the fact that Muslim
24 prisoners were working at front line positions and that the ICRC was
25 protesting this practice; right?
1 A. The exchange commission and the commission president knew of
2 that. Because we see that the exchange commission was notified at the
3 airport. The representative of the exchange commission for the people
4 who were from Grapska is from the 1st Krajina Corps. I only gave him
5 accurate information in case a list came in, a list of people about which
6 he would brief the others at meetings. There was no intention of
7 concealing an individual or saying that he was there in order to hide the
8 fact that the individual had been killed.
9 MS. GUSTAFSON: I tender this document.
10 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.
11 JUDGE KWON: What is the title of the document?
12 MS. GUSTAFSON: I realise as we went that I had an earlier
13 translation. The translation I have says "information on wanted
14 persons," but I'd have to look at the screen again to see if that has
15 been revised.
16 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We will receive it.
17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6282, Your Honours.
18 MS. GUSTAFSON:
19 Q. Mr. Skiljevic, I'd like to read another passage from your
20 interview in 2003 on this topic. You were asked -- this is at page 158.
21 You were asked:
22 "I have to go back. Again in 1992, you mentioned that you would
23 report to Avlijas. Would that be in writing or verbally?"
24 And you said:
25 "More verbally and some in writing. As I've said he would come
1 here very often and that he was familiar with the problems of all
2 KP Doms, once he assumed the position of assistant for implementation.
3 And issues most often discussed were the issues on prison regulations,
4 passing the house rules, law on implementation of criminal and
5 misdemeanour sanctions, systematisation of work positions, resources
6 needed for the institutions, equipment level of the police service."
7 And then you were asked:
8 "Thank you. Would you also inform him about the fact that the
9 work done by the prisoners?"
10 And you said:
11 "Yes, he was familiar with that."
12 And you were asked:
13 "And what was his reaction to the fact that prisoners would be
14 taken and would be used for military purposes?"
15 And you said:
16 "I think he had contact with them and talked to them. I think
17 I said that in the beginning -- I think I said that in the beginning what
18 was the answer, that we had none, nor we could -- nor could we have had
19 any influence, that is that anybody could have prevented it, any of us
20 could have forbidden it."
21 Now, that's right, isn't it? You -- as you told the OTP you were
22 in constant contact with Slobodan Avlijas, the assistant minister of
23 justice who came to Kula very often, and he was aware that Kula prisoners
24 were taken out to do military work and his response was that he was
25 unable to prevent it.
1 A. On several occasions, Mr. Avlijas, the assistant deputy minister,
2 every time I was there would come. He would tour the institution. We
3 went to meetings in Bijeljina with him because the implementation was in
4 Bijeljina. The only person for the implementation of sentencing. He
5 would call several times, he would come -- he would frequently say, Are
6 you alive, take care of yourself, because everybody knew where we were
7 and in which area of the war we were. It's true that the minister was
8 informed as well as the assistant about all of the problems because this
9 is our job, anything that had to do with convicted persons, something
10 that was in the jurisdiction of the district courts. But anything that
11 had to do with the military jurisdiction, there were several categories
12 of detainees that we had. And there was also a women's section, plus
13 civilians and prisoners of war, and three warring parties. All of that
14 was something that Mr. Avlijas was aware of. So the answer that I gave
15 then --
16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the end of the
18 MS. GUSTAFSON:
19 Q. Mr. Skiljevic, the interpreter did not hear what you said after
20 you said, "So the answer that I gave then." Could you finish that
21 sentence again, please?
22 A. I think this was in 2003 that I gave, that you read, to the
24 Q. And the answer that you gave in 2003 about Mr. Avlijas's
25 knowledge of specifically of prisoners performing -- being taken out to
1 do military work, that's accurate and correct; right?
2 A. Correct, yes.
3 Q. Okay.
4 MS GUSTAFSON: If we could go to 65 ter 24237, please.
5 Q. And again, the document that will come up on your screen in a
6 moment is a document that the Prosecution copied at the Kula prison in
7 2003. And it is a report of an inspection of Kula prison that took place
8 in April 1994. And at the bottom it says, "Pale, April 1994." Would
9 this inspection have been carried out by Ministry of Justice officials,
10 Mr. Skiljevic?
11 A. I can only see the first part here. Who signed it?
12 Q. It doesn't have a signature. That's why I'm asking you. Perhaps
13 we can go through it and then it may refresh your memory about the
14 inspection. If we could go to page 2 of the English and page 2 of the
15 B/C/S. And in the middle of the page, it says, "Conditionally put, three
16 categories of persons are located in the facility." A is 89 persons
17 under investigation. And under B it says 14 convicted persons. And then
18 at the end of the part under B it says 75 Muslim including four women and
19 46 Croatian prisoners.
20 And if we could go to page 4 of the English and page 4 of the
21 B/C/S. And this is at the top of the B/C/S, in the middle of the
22 English, it says:
23 "The food is being prepared in the facility's kitchen as follows:
24 For facility employees, employees of the Kula police station and
25 convicted and detained persons of Serbian ethnicity, according to a set
1 menu issued once a month, while different food is prepared for prisoners.
2 Everyone eats in the facility dining room except Muslim prisoners whose
3 food is brought to the rooms they inhabit."
4 Now in your statement you said that the same food was served to
5 the prisoners, guards, and KP Dom officials, but this report indicates
6 that while the Serb convicts and the Serb detainees ate the same food as
7 the prison staff, the non-Serb prisoners were given different food;
9 A. The report written by the inspector, it's not said here but if
10 the cooking was in the military army cauldrons and then taken to the
11 Muslims, then there was a request; for example, when beans were being
12 cooked, not to put pork into that meal. And then they asked for food to
13 be cooked on oil, not on lard. That would be the main difference. There
14 was a problem with the pates, for example, that we received from the
15 Red Cross produced by Ikar. In that food, perhaps if there was any fat
16 or anything else, a number of them would avoid eating it, not all of them
17 but a number did avoid eating it. And we had to fulfil their requests of
18 the people who were working there, as this inspector here has written in
19 his observations.
20 Q. And although in your statement you said that food was provided to
21 interned persons in the dining room, this document clearly states that
22 Muslim prisoners did not eat in the dining room, they eat in the rooms in
23 which they were imprisoned; right?
24 A. No. According to this, it would seem that they ate in their
25 rooms, but they actually had their own dining room between the two
1 facilities. It was difficult to prepare 1200 meals every day and to
2 issue them at the same time. The people who were going to work had to
3 have breakfast first, then they would have a snack, then they would come
4 for lunch, then it would be officials, we had professors, district
5 courts, police, people from the Ministry of the -- of internal affairs,
6 employees. There was a separate room for that or actually a canteen or a
7 dining room. Food was not taken to the rooms, in any event. Only if
8 somebody was ill perhaps, then it would be taken to them because they
9 couldn't come to the dining hall.
10 Q. Now, having had a chance to see some of this report, do you
11 recall now whether this inspection was carried out by Ministry of Justice
12 officials in April 1994?
13 A. As far as I can remember, there was one inspector at the
14 Ministry of Justice at the time, and I think that he wrote this report.
15 The document should have been signed.
16 MS. GUSTAFSON: I tender this document and I'd like to now go to
17 65 ter 24232.
18 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we will admit it.
20 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6283, Your Honours.
21 MS. GUSTAFSON:
22 Q. The next document we are going to look at Mr. Skiljevic is
23 actually the appeals judgement by the Bosnian state court, the document
24 that you reference in your statement but is not tendered. And it's
25 referenced at paragraph 17 of your statement. And you noted that you
1 were acquitted on appeal. If we could go to page 74 of the English and
2 page 56 of the B/C/S, and if I could direct your attention to
3 paragraph 194 of the judgement, and this is in the section of the
4 judgement dealing with conditions in the prison between the
5 16th of December, 1992, and mid-December 1995. And it refers to eight
6 witnesses -- starting in the second sentence who all -- eight witnesses
7 and others, it says, discussed overcrowding in the KPD Butmir. They
8 slept on mattresses and blankets, had insufficient foods which mostly
9 consisted of two meals and endured poor hygienic conditions. And it says
10 some witnesses testified that they had the possibility of bathing with
11 cold water and about the lack of heating during the winter months. And
12 the Court states, these conditions are undoubtedly unsatisfactory,
13 although it notes some witnesses said that the conditions were better
14 than other camps in which they had been detained.
15 And if we could go to paragraph 177 which is on page 70 of the
16 English and page 53 of the B/C/S, at paragraph 177 it states that the
17 Defence teams for both accused agreed that the detention conditions with
18 respect to the provision of food and hygienic accommodation were not
19 satisfactory but argued that the army was responsible for meeting the
20 dietary and hygiene needs of detained non-Serbs. Now, in your statement
21 in this trial, at paragraph 8, you asserted that the food at KPD was
22 sufficient and none of the prisoners went hungry, whereas at your own
23 trial you agreed that the food and other living conditions for non-Serb
24 prisoners at Kula were inadequate and blamed the army for this; right?
25 A. No. I wouldn't wish to comment on the judgement of a
1 trial chamber or any court decisions. Simply I would not want to comment
2 on that. This is an official judgement.
3 Q. You've already commented on this judgement in your witness
4 statement, Mr. Skiljevic. You put it forward in asserting that you were
5 charged with crimes at Kula camp and acquitted. And this states clearly
6 that the position you took in your own trial was that the food provided
7 to the non-Serb prisoners at Kula was inadequate. That's right, isn't
9 A. No, that's not correct. It depends on the period that you're
10 talking about. I am talking about the period from 1993. I'm not talking
11 about the initial period. We don't want to mix things up.
12 MS. GUSTAFSON: Your Honours, I note that I'm at the end of my
13 time. I could conclude in five minutes.
14 JUDGE KWON: Please continue.
15 MS. GUSTAFSON:
16 Q. Now just remaining on the topic of this judgement that you point
17 to in your witness statement, I'd like to summarise the reasons for which
18 you and Mr. Lalovic were acquitted and you can tell me if you agree with
19 that. The appellate chamber concluded that Kula prison constituted an
20 organised criminal system in which large numbers of non-Serb civilians
21 were unlawfully detained and provided with inadequate food, hygienic
22 facilities and medical care, and subjected to forced labour resulting in
23 injuries and death. The appellate chamber also concluded that you were
24 undoubtedly aware of this criminal system. But the chamber acquitted you
25 of unlawful detention, inhumane conditions of detention and forced labour
1 because it found there was a reasonable doubt that you, as opposed to the
2 Republika Srpska military authorities, were responsible for those crimes.
3 Do you agree with that summary?
4 A. I'm sorry, I did not hear the last sentence.
5 Q. The last sentence was that you were acquitted of unlawful
6 detention, inhumane conditions of detention and forced labour because the
7 appeals chamber found that there was a reasonable doubt that it was you
8 rather than the military authorities of the Republika Srpska that were
9 responsible for those crimes.
10 A. That we were responsible?
11 Q. Sorry, the appeals chamber concluded that the military
12 authorities may have been responsible for the crimes rather than you, and
13 that's why you were acquitted; right?
14 A. That's better now, because before you said that we were
15 responsible. I can just give a brief comment. During the war, the
16 Kula KP Dom, and I'm telling this Trial Chamber and all those present,
17 that there was no institution in Republika Srpska or Bosnia-Herzegovina
18 that had better accommodation, food and everything than the KP Dom, and
19 this has been proven in trial proceedings so far. Mr. Mandic, the
20 warden, and the seven wardens and guards who were tried before the court
21 in eastern Sarajevo showed that everything that the Prosecution charged
22 and sought to prove could not be proved against us responsible ones. So
23 far, there have been 11 of us.
24 Q. Well, again, do you agree that the appeals chamber found that all
25 these crimes were committed at Kula, unlawful detention, forced labour,
1 cruel treatment, the reason you were acquitted is because the Court
2 concluded that the military authorities may have been responsible for
3 those crimes carried out at Kula prison. That's right, isn't it?
4 A. No single crime was committed in Kula, specifically. If there
5 was any crime, it was from a shell that killed Serbian people and a shell
6 that dropped in the military farm and another shell when a policeman on
7 duty was killed. No person was killed in the facility of the KP Dom.
8 Secondly, it's correct that at work sites and during work duty at the
9 farm and outside of the KP Dom, there were some people who were killed
10 and who were wounded. I'm not disputing this and I did not dispute this
11 before the court of Bosnia-Herzegovina either.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 MS. GUSTAFSON: I tender this judgement.
14 MR. ROBINSON: No objection. I think it should be admitted in
15 its entirety since the reasoning was referred to.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger, Mr. Robinson, has the Chamber ever
18 admitted a judgement of a different chamber or court? If you could
19 remind me of our practice.
20 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, you've been admitting portions of judgements
21 in the past. We have usually taken just the portion that showed the
22 result without the reasoning, but there have been other occasions when
23 you've admitted portions of a judgement either showing someone was
24 convicted or acquitted. In this case we think the whole judgement should
25 be admitted because the questioning dealt with not only the outcome but
1 the reasoning.
2 MS. GUSTAFSON: And, Your Honours, if I might add in the
3 Prosecution's case the Chamber admitted -- I'm aware of at least two full
4 judgements that were admitted by the accused in cross-examination
5 relating to crimes in Rogatica. I don't have the numbers at my
6 fingertips but I could certainly find them.
7 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber will take this under advisement and come
8 back to this issue later on.
9 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, I have no further questions. Thank
10 you, Mr. Skiljevic.
11 JUDGE KWON: Do you have any re-examination, Mr. Karadzic?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellencies, but I see
13 the time, so I'm wondering if we should begin now or would it be better
14 to do it after the break?
15 JUDGE KWON: We will have a break for half an hour and resume at
16 3 minutes to 11.
17 --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.
18 --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Gustafson.
20 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honours. If I could just take
21 the opportunity to inform the Court of the exhibit numbers of the
22 judgements you had previously add admitted. They are D1665, and D1666.
23 And if I could just add that apart from that I think these are somewhat
24 unique circumstances given that the judgement I tendered was raised,
25 discussed and referenced at paragraph 17 of the witness statement. And
1 as it's raised in the sense of the witness's acquittal it could leave an
2 impression that the Bosnian state court concluded that crimes weren't
3 committed at Kula, whereas the judgement as a whole makes it quite clear
4 that the Court concluded crimes why systematically committed at Kula
5 prison. So I think to put the assertions at paragraph 17 in their proper
6 context, that these are circumstances where fairness would militate in
7 favour of admitting this exhibit. Thank you.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes, the Chamber will consider the issue.
9 Thank you.
10 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am not quite certain that it can
12 be taken that the Court determined responsibility for events in Kula. It
13 determined that this witness and his associates were not guilty. But the
14 Defence will consider this further.
15 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Skiljevic, good morning.
17 THE ACCUSED: Good morning, Your Excellencies. Good morning,
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Let us start with what is the freshest. Did the Muslim prisoners
22 provided less food than the Serbian ones?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Thank you. Did you give less than you had and less than you
25 could to Muslim prisoners and anyone else?
1 A. No.
2 Q. So did you purposefully withhold food and items needed for
3 personal hygiene, and so on?
4 A. No.
5 Q. You said that for POWs, you requested assistance in food from the
6 army. As for those who were criminally prosecuted, the
7 minister of justice was in charge of them. And how did you treat the
8 Muslim civilians, those who arrived to be exchanged and for your
9 reunification with their families, were they treated as prisoners at all?
10 A. They were separated from the detainees in another building, so
11 they were not covered by the same treatment in any way.
12 Q. Thank you. Did you have sufficient food for them, and how did
13 you arrange this?
14 A. From the contingent of food that was available for us, and which
15 we produced at our farm, we also requested from the government and the
16 high commissioner to send us certain produce because a group of civilians
17 from the vicinity of Rogatica was accommodated in the Dom so we wouldn't
18 be in the situation if we received more people from other locations, that
19 we would not have sufficient food and we would have hungry people and
20 wouldn't be able to feed them all.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 24191, please. If we could
23 have that document in e-court.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Is this your document with your signature and do you remember --
1 no, no, first page, please. But I think it's not -- what we have now is
2 not -- the previous page, rather. The previous document. Yes, thank
4 Can you please answer, is this your document with your signature
5 and who did you address this request to?
6 A. I addressed this request on the 5th of September, 1994, to the
7 commission for refugees and humanitarian aid of Republika Srpska in Pale,
8 that is to say the commissariat for refugees and humanitarian aid of
9 Republika Srpska in Pale. All the requests before this one and this one
10 too were fully granted, thanks to the commission which was then in charge
11 of the refugees, and the entire department, the head of the commission
12 was Mr. Ljubisa Vladusic [phoen], Ljubisa Vladusic.
13 Q. Thank you. Why did you write to them, the commission for
14 refugees? What did you request and for what category of inmates?
15 A. We wrote to them for prisoners of war and civilians because we
16 received resources from the budget, that is to say from the
17 Ministry of Finance. We were allocated funds from the budget for
18 providing food to the convicted persons and those who were still under
20 Q. It says here that in addition to the main function during the war
21 refugees of Muslim ethnicity were also accommodated in the Dom during the
22 war. Is that the reason why you requested it from the commission for
23 refugees because these people were refugees?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this please be admitted into
3 MS. GUSTAFSON: This is already an associated exhibit, D3335.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise. I'm not familiar
5 enough with my own case. I apologise.
6 JUDGE KWON: But it was in different 65 ter number. Yes. Thank
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Were there any other reasons apart from religious reasons for
10 different cauldrons in which food was cooked for prisoners who were of
11 different religious affiliations?
12 A. No, not at all. We had established the practice for the Bajram
13 and for the Serbian and Croatian Christmas, that on those days we would
14 prepare special food. We called them reinforced meals with a cake and a
15 glass of wine, and that was the practice in penal and correctional
16 facilities then.
17 Q. Thank you. On page 24 today, you were asked whether Avlijas was
18 informed that the prisoners went to perform labour. Could you tell us
19 whether Mr. Avlijas belonged to the civilian or military structures in
20 Republika Srpska?
21 A. He was the assistant minister for the serving of sentences in the
22 Ministry of Justice of Republika Srpska.
23 Q. You were also asked whether he knew that prisoners went to
24 perform labour. Did he have any authority or jurisdiction over the
25 prisoners because prisoner and detainee, it's more or less one and the
1 same word in English. Prisoner. But we should say prisoner of war or
2 captive for the prisoners. Did he have any jurisdictions over POWs?
3 A. He had jurisdiction over us. In fact, we called him boss or
4 chief. He was the chief of the prison. He was our immediate superior
5 from the civilian authorities. He was in charge of persons who had been
6 convicted and who were under the jurisdiction of civilian courts. So
7 that was the sole jurisdiction. The assistants had it, or rather, the
8 Ministry of Justice, and of course we did as well, we who were the heads
9 of the relevant institutions.
10 Q. Thank you. I'm interested in the following: You said today that
11 nothing was concealed. You were working for the state. In the name of
12 the state, did you record every misdemeanour or violation or anything
13 that the state had to know and had to prevent, or did you conceal
14 anything, and how did Mr. Avlijas behave with regard to this?
15 A. From the beginning of 1992, we still have all the documents, all
16 the records, every day, everything was recorded. A number of big
17 notebooks and files, complete files with medical documents, consumption
18 of food, everything was recorded as if there was no war at all. We
19 recorded everything and registered everything as we used to do before the
20 war. As I worked about this for 35 years, I worked only with convicted
21 persons, and this aspect of the work is something I am completely
22 familiar with, and we used this as our guidelines. And we applied this
23 to all the other categories of persons who were at the KP Dom, who were
24 accommodated there. POWs, civilians, whoever came to the KP Dom, we
25 never concealed anything, whichever information the international
1 instances or courts and this Tribunal requested, we always submitted
2 everything. Nothing was secret. Everything has been recorded on paper.
3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Skiljevic. On page 10 and page 11, it was
4 suggested to you that Rosic did not want to know about civilians, the
5 late minister Rosic, the justice minister. Did you say that that was
6 correct or that it was correct -- I'm sorry, perhaps I could quote to you
7 what exactly was said on that particular page.
8 MS. GUSTAFSON: And then after that, a non-leading question
9 should be asked.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. This was the question at the end of page 10:
12 [In English] "Are you stating there that you were, you informed
13 the minister of justice of your concerns about civilians being held in
14 the prison but he didn't want to discuss that; is that correct?"
15 [Interpretation] And you answered:
16 [In English] "That is correct. At meetings we also pointed
17 out ...," [Interpretation] and so on and so forth.
18 Was the reason that the justice minister did not inquire about
19 these people was that they were civilians or because of who they were or
20 because of who detained them and under whose jurisdiction they were?
21 A. He only --
22 JUDGE KWON: Before you answer, yes, Ms. Gustafson.
23 MS. GUSTAFSON: That question shouldn't have been asked that way.
24 The witness is given only two options. It should be asked in an open
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. All right. Though
3 this -- Ms. Gustafson's question was also misleading.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. But tell us why wasn't he interested in that category of the
6 Dom's inmates?
7 A. The Ministry of Justice was not in charge of them. It didn't
8 have the jurisdiction, and if as an organ the Ministry of Justice did not
9 have the jurisdiction then the minister didn't either and that's why he
10 acted in that way. What was the jurisdiction of the army, namely the
11 POWs, and where the persons under investigation were under the
12 jurisdiction of the military, that is to say the military courts, they
13 were a category that was separate from those who were under the
14 jurisdiction of the Ministry of Justice, and therefore he talked with us
15 about those specific issues and not about the others which were not under
16 our jurisdiction.
17 Q. Thank you. So what effect did it have, that they were civilians
18 and he did not inquire about them?
19 A. Not any effect. He talked with us, and we requested that these
20 people should be transferred from the penal and correctional facilities
21 because they only made trouble and difficulties for us, if I can put it
22 that way. Because we had to take care about people who were staying with
23 us and who were not under our jurisdiction, we had to provide them with a
24 lot of care with respect to providing them with food and health service
25 and satisfying all their other needs. That had to be seen to.
1 Q. Thank you. On page 21, it is stated that at Zlatiste, some
2 prisoners or POWs or captured persons were killed due to shelling. Can
3 you tell us is there anything else in Zlatiste except the front line?
4 Does this mean that they were at the front line?
5 A. There is nothing.
6 Q. Is there some kind of tower there? Is there any logistics, any
8 A. Well, the labour that was performed was always performed in the
9 depth of territory, when they were doing something in the barracks
10 after -- below Mojmilo Brdo. You cannot see the positions of the
11 opposing sides there. You cannot see that from the tower at Zlatiste.
12 You cannot even see the KP Dom or houses in Donji Kotorac or Novakovici.
13 All that is above the combat lines. But in that area, in these
14 locations, people were killed by shells and also by sniper fire. And as
15 they were leaving, as they were going from the KP Dom to where they had
16 to perform their labour between Kula and Lukavica in the location in
17 Bijelo Polje on the road, as they were going and coming back, the same
18 also happened.
19 Q. You are talking about indirect mortar fire. What are the
20 sections of Sarajevo, the city proper, and the general area of the city
21 were those that could not be hit by mortar fire? That is to say where
22 could you be and be sure that nothing would fall?
23 A. Well, I don't know. Perhaps Trtunici [phoen] up there, because
24 in Kasindol where we were and where the hospital was, even there mortar
25 shells sometimes landed. In Cilava [phoen] as well and in Pale, I mean,
1 there was no great safety anywhere.
2 Q. Thank you. You have served the army, haven't you?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. We just have to make pauses between question and answer, please.
5 Can you tell me except for trenches was there anything else in the -- at
6 the front line? You mentioned some communicating trenches. I'm not sure
7 if it was properly understood what was meant by that. Are there any
8 reserve positions or something else that is dug out and that is not
9 necessarily at the front of the first front line, that is to say that is
10 located in depth?
11 A. Well, there were some communications or roads constructed to
12 transport goods, and so on, because this area was not densely populated.
13 Many refugees had arrived. Many facilities had been constructed but
14 there were no access roads, access roads to the barracks, access roads to
15 houses, access roads leading to hospital; that is to say whatever was
16 needed so that these places could be reached as fast as possible and so
17 that people could be removed from the confrontation line.
18 Q. Thank you. On page 18 you mentioned that people would drink when
19 they went to perform labour. You mentioned the Serbian cemetery that was
20 nearby and you said that not a single bottle of brandy had remained full.
21 Can you explain to the Trial Chamber what is the connection between a
22 graveyard or a cemetery and brandy or rakia in B/C/S.
23 A. Well, it's close to the poultry farm where eggs were produced and
24 the Serbian graveyard is there. According to Serbian customs, you leave
25 some brandy at the cemetery after the burial is performed. So during the
1 night, if it was there, after the work was performed, people would take
2 the brandy and drink it because it was close to the buildings. And you
3 had soldiers in the barracks who also consumed a lot of alcohol.
4 Q. Thank you. Was it also a custom to leave something else in
5 graveyards, such as food and so on, and did homeless people and who
6 else -- or how did this all end up, the items which were left in the
7 cemetery according to age-old customs?
8 A. Well, mostly it was rakia or brandy that people were after.
9 Q. Thank you. You were told that some of the prisoners went to
10 Grbavica. Was Grbavica a military location by its nature? Or what was
11 it, in -- by its character, was it a military location or a civilian
13 A. During the war, in Grbavica, there were -- I don't know the exact
14 information, but I think it had about 10.000 residents who were living in
16 Q. Thank you. And perhaps if you know, do you know that in 1994,
17 the international, or rather, the high commission established that out of
18 the 10.000, 4.000 were Muslims? Did you know this?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you. You were also asked about the following: You met
21 Stanisic. You met Mandic. Did Mandic, when he arrived, to his premises,
22 the premises of the ministry, did he come to his premises or offices or
23 did he come to the prison?
24 A. Mandic occasionally came to his own offices, and in these offices
25 he held meetings because at the time this had been established. It was
1 your duty. You had established the KP Doms and the courts, the lower
2 court, the district court, were then set up in eastern Sarajevo and it
3 was precisely on the premises of the KP Dom -- well, the premises. We
4 are actually talking about the administration building, which belonged to
5 the KP Dom throughout the war up until 1996, also housed the district
6 court and the district public prosecutor's office. So it was a normal
7 thing that the minister would hold meetings there with representatives of
8 the Ministry of Justice. The assistants Vrljasovic [phoen], Avlijas, and
9 others, they drafted certain regulations, being sure that they would
10 maintain law and order and so on, and with his deputy at the time, that
11 was Nenad Obradovic.
12 Q. Thank you. I would like you to explain to the Chamber that if
13 someone visits his offices or premises, is that within the complex and is
14 administration building also located within the complex, or can you enter
15 this building without entering the complex?
16 A. Well, it's next to the gate. It's at the gate itself and those
17 who were staying there were at distance of about 70 metres, those who
18 were convicted and those who were inmates and there were other facilities
19 around those buildings.
20 Q. Thank you. You were also told that Minister Mico Stanisic, who
21 was the minister of the interior, sometimes visited as well. Was the
22 public security station in Kula also an integral part of the prison?
23 A. The Kula public security station was --
24 JUDGE KWON: Could you repeat your answer, Mr. Skiljevic?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the KPD was closed down, when
1 the convicts were released on the 6th of April, 1992, a certain time
2 later a police station was placed there, the Kula police station. The
3 former warden, Kreho, and the remaining staff of the KPD were also there,
4 and some people from the farm, the Ekonomija. That was the situation
5 until August 1992, when the police station moved to another building,
6 also owned by the KPD at the same locality as the farm. And the station
7 stayed there until 2010.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. In organisational terms was it part of the prison or did it
10 belong to the MUP?
11 A. No. They belonged to the MUP. We were parts of two different
12 ministries: One was the Ministry of Justice, the other the
13 Ministry of the Interior. The KPD was under the Ministry of Justice,
14 whereas the police were under the Ministry of the Interior.
15 Q. Thank you. If Minister Stanisic was seen coming to the public
16 security station, did he come to visit the prison or the police station?
17 A. No. He would visit his co-workers.
18 Q. Thank you. Let's have a look at P6277. You were asked how much
19 earlier you learned that I was coming and Mr. Ashdown, and you said that
20 you only learned of our arrival two hours in advance which was contested.
21 Let's take a look at this document, P6277, page 26 through 28. Actually,
22 the correct page number is 175, and I'm interested in lines 26
23 through 28. 175. Here is what you said then. I'll read it out in
25 [In English] "Just that everything should be as normal and
1 I practically found out about their arrival two hours before they would
2 come because it was postponed and postponed all the time. First it was
3 said that they would come at 1.00, then they didn't come at 1.00, so it
4 was prolonged. I didn't even know if they would come at all."
5 [Interpretation] In that interview, you said that you had learned
6 of our arrival two hours in advance?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Thank you. Let us have page 180, lines 22 through 28. Here, we
9 went through that fast:
10 [In English] "And I think that minister was grateful."
11 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Yes, Ms. Gustafson.
12 MS. GUSTAFSON: Sorry. This passages never put to the witness in
13 cross-examination, and now this is just a totally leading exercise for
14 Dr. Karadzic to go to other parts and reads them out to the witness. If
15 he wants to ask about things that are in this statement he should just
16 ask the questions rather than reading out the witness's prior statement.
17 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, there is nothing wrong with putting
18 something to a witness and asking him whether it's accurate or not. The
19 witness can say: No, this is wrong, or, yes, this is correct.
20 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may, the witness started
22 reading this paragraph but he was interrupted. I would like him to
23 complete his answer.
24 JUDGE KWON: Could you tell us in what context he was stopped
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor interrupted him.
2 The Prosecutor was not interested in that paragraph, Ms. Gustafson, that
3 is. But I am interested.
4 JUDGE KWON: Instead of showing the passage, why could you not
5 put the question first, some foundational question? Is it related to
6 whether or not he was informed two hours before the -- their arrival?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, Excellency, I wanted to enable
8 him to finish his answer. He started saying the minister said this and
9 that. I can put the question differently.
10 JUDGE KWON: Let us see the question and answer first.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Would you like me to ask my
12 question now?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot hear the interpretation.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But in Serbian version which the
15 witness had started reading.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. But can you tell us, during this visit of the minister, what
18 information did he get and how did he assess the work of you and your
20 A. He said it was excellent. No remarks whatsoever.
21 Q. Then I seek to tender this page unless it is admitted already,
22 but I believe part of it is admitted because Ms. Gustafson introduced
23 something from this page.
24 JUDGE KWON: And now it's for you to put this part to the
25 witness. The witness didn't comment on this.
1 Yes, Ms. Gustafson.
2 MS. GUSTAFSON: I think the witness has given an answer that's
3 basically the same as what's in his prior statement, so I don't see any
4 reason for the statement to then be put to the witness. Normally that
5 would only be to refresh recollection or impeachment. And I also don't
6 see a basis for its admission.
7 JUDGE KWON: I tend to agree with Ms. Gustafson.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's all the same to me. I got an
9 answer that the minister thought they were doing excellent work. With
10 this page it would have been more complete, that he had commended them
11 and that he enabled them to be in constant contact with him. I think
12 this would have been a more useful to the Bench, but if you prefer
13 otherwise --
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Mr. Skiljevic, I don't remember if I asked you in my
16 examination-in-chief whether you were commended during your work or given
17 any decoration or award.
18 A. Before the war, I was commended a number of times; those were
19 penological commendations for my work. I also got oral commendations.
20 I wasn't decorated, though, although I stood up before a tank and
21 prevented them from shooting at the detention unit, because an order had
22 been given to fire shells at everybody in the building. But I said, Only
23 over my dead body.
24 Q. There have been suggestions today that the KPD was overcrowded,
25 so can we get document P24237. Can we see page 3 in e-court, which is
1 the second page of the document. Please focus on what it says about the
2 other building -- persons of Croatian ethnicity while two Muslim women
3 are in a separate room. All the dormitories have a sufficient number of
4 beds, blankets, but there is a significant shortage of pillows, and so
5 on, a TV set. And then they say further down, sanitary areas are
6 operational, there is water, and the inmates were interviewed in the
7 absence of the personnel. And the conclusion was that there were no
8 objections. Although this report is not signed, is it in line with what
9 you knew?
10 A. Everything stated here is correct. I made some remarks to this
11 report and it was signed by Professor Vukasin Gutovic. At the time he
12 was the only inspector at the -- in the sentence implementation
13 department. There was a shortage of electricity and water, but we made
14 some furnaces in our workshops and we also received some from the ICRC,
15 and all the dormitories had solid fuel furnaces. The 4th of July -- on
16 the 4th of July, 1992, a shell completely destroyed the boiler room.
17 That's why the only option for heating was fuel or solid fuel furnaces.
18 This is how we provided for their needs. And since some of the areas are
19 rather dirty, such as the pig farm or the poultry farm, and a generator
20 had to work constantly, and therefore there were bathrooms where
21 everybody could come and have a bath, though sometimes we would be
22 without water, but then we went to a well and brought water in
23 containers, to avoid epidemiological problems.
24 Q. Has there been an epidemic?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Thank you. Let us see page 10, please. That's page 10 in the
2 Serbian. Probably in the English too. It says here, the Kula catering
3 facility -- it says 80 per cent of the window panes are destroyed.
4 Further down it says damage by shrapnel, a part of the furniture stolen,
5 so tell us how come these window panes were broken by shrapnel? Was the
6 cafeteria targeted?
7 A. The cafeteria is some 250 or 300 metres away from the KPD. It is
8 near the farm and it was badly damaged by mortar shells. Only in 1994,
9 when there was the blue road running through the farm, which the
10 civilians from Lukavica took to get to the airport, accompanied by
11 international forces, UNPROFOR and SFOR, then there was no shelling after
12 1600 hours. After that, when the road was closed, the shelling would
13 continue. Shells were fired from mortars. The facility was not in
14 function, and only in mid-1994 was it used again.
15 Q. Thank you. There are some more things in that other interview
16 but I won't deal with that because the interview has been admitted.
17 Thank you for your evidence, Mr. Skiljevic.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,
19 Your Excellencies.
20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Skiljevic. That
21 concludes your evidence. On behalf of the Chamber I would like to thank
22 you for your coming to The Hague to give it. Now you are free to go.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too, for being fair and
24 all the best.
25 [The witness withdrew]
1 JUDGE KWON: While we are waiting for the next witness, I'd like
2 to put this on the record. During the testimony of Dragomir Obradovic,
3 the Chamber admitted 65 ter 1D7300 as Exhibit D3189. During his
4 testimony a discussion ensued as to the correctness of the English
5 translation of the first sentence in that document. The Chamber has
6 asked for a revised translation of the document, and that the Chamber
7 instructs the Registry to upload the revised translation onto e-court in
8 replacement of the previous English one. The newly or the revised
9 document reads -- I mean, the first sentence: At certain times 61
10 Muslims civilians were moved out of the village of Vrbanja instead of
11 being removed.
12 [The witness entered court]
13 Very well. Would the witness make the solemn declaration,
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
16 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
17 WITNESS: DUSAN KOZIC
18 [Witness answered through interpreter]
19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Kozic, please be seated and make
20 yourself comfortable.
21 Before you commence your evidence, Mr. Kozic, I must draw your
22 attention to a certain rule of procedure and evidence that we have here
23 at the International Tribunal, that is Rule 90(E). Under this rule, you
24 may object to answering any question from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecution
25 or even from the Judges, if you believe that your answer might
1 incriminate you in a criminal offence. In this context, "incriminate"
2 means saying something that might amount to admission of guilt for a
3 criminal offence or saying something that might provide evidence that you
4 might have committed a criminal offence. However, should you think that
5 an answer might incriminate you and as a consequence you refuse to answer
6 the question, I must let you know that the Tribunal has the power to
7 compel you to answer the question. But in that situation, the Tribunal
8 would ensure that your testimony compelled in such circumstances would
9 not be used in any case that might be laid against you for any offence
10 save and except the offence of giving false testimony.
11 Do you understand what I have just told you, Mr. Kozic?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
14 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] thank you.
16 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
17 Q. [Interpretation ] Good day, Mr. Kozic.
18 A. Good day, Mr. President.
19 Q. May I ask that you pause between my questions and your answers,
20 and for us to speak our sentences out slowly without hurry so that
21 everything could be recorded in the transcript.
22 A. Of course. I also read the instructions.
23 Q. Thank you. Did you give a statement to my Defence team?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 1D7720 in e-court,
2 please. 1D7720.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].
4 Q. Do you see the first page of this statement on the screen in
5 front of you?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you. Have you read the statement and did you sign it?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we show the last page to the
11 witness now, please, so that he can identify his signature.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Is this your signature?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you. Does this statement faithfully convey what you told
16 the Defence team? Do you wish to change anything, clarify anything or
17 amend anything?
18 A. Yes, in essence. Yes, if we go one item by item, perhaps there
19 would be some things that I would change that are of a technical nature.
20 Q. Thank you. If I were to ask you today in this courtroom the same
21 questions, would your answers in essence be the same as the ones in this
23 A. Yes, entirely so.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I would like to
1 tender this bundle pursuant to 92 ter.
2 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, there are 15 associated exhibits
3 and we would ask permission of six of them to be added to the Rule 65 ter
4 list which they were not included as a result of inadvertence.
5 MS. McKENNA: Good morning, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE KWON: Just, I'm checking, the number I have is 14. Could
7 you check the numbers again -- number again, whether it's 14 or 15?
8 MR. ROBINSON: I've been at it a few times and I came up with 15.
9 JUDGE KWON: Fifteen. Let me hear from you first, Ms. McKenna.
10 Good morning to you.
11 MS. McKENNA: Good morning. I think I have 15 numbers as well,
12 although I note that there are partial translations only of five of the
13 documents. I presume that the Defence is only tendering those documents
14 in part. And in relation to 65 ter 17311, there is no translation.
15 I also --
16 JUDGE KWON: 17 -- I don't have that number. 17311 is being
18 MR. ROBINSON: No, it's listed as an additional exhibit that's
19 not being tendered.
20 MS. McKENNA: My mistake, Your Honour. I'd also just like to
21 query. The witness has said that he would make changes of a technical
22 nature. I think this leaves some confusion on the record so perhaps
23 Mr. Karadzic could clarify it.
24 JUDGE KWON: I take it, Mr. Karadzic, you will take that up.
25 Shall we go through one by one. The first one I have is 65 ter 5987.
1 I take it that the Defence is tendering only the item that's dealt with,
2 i.e. item 27.
3 MR. ROBINSON: That's correct.
4 JUDGE KWON: How about adding the cover page --
5 MR. ROBINSON: We can do that.
6 JUDGE KWON: -- which hasn't been translated.
7 MR. ROBINSON: Okay, we could submit that to translation.
8 JUDGE KWON: With that understanding we will admit it. And next
9 one, 5989, shall we do the same exercise?
10 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE KWON: And same goes to the next item, 5994.
12 MR. ROBINSON: Yes. And, Mr. President, these are actually
13 Prosecution 65 ter numbers, so we will go ahead and submit them for
14 translation and then give them to the Prosecution for upload unless they
15 have the cover page translated.
16 JUDGE KWON: I take it there would be no problem with it.
17 MS. McKENNA: That's fine, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE KWON: The same goes for 5995. And next item the Chamber
19 has is 17324. The Chamber does not see this as indispensable and
20 inseparable part of the statement in that the witness did not participate
21 in the delegation, he does not recall the report, and in any event I
22 don't think he made any substantial comment on the report. So that will
23 not be admitted.
24 And the Chamber has no difficulty with the following numbers:
25 17457, 30231, 1D7897, 1D25775, 1D25776, 1D25778.
1 And the Chamber has similar concern about 1D25779 to those in
2 relation to 17324. So we will not admit this one for the similar reason.
3 And the remaining two, 1D25783 and 1D25784 will be admitted. Is
4 there any item I omitted?
5 MR. ROBINSON: I think 1D25752 may have been omitted.
6 JUDGE KWON: What paragraph is dealing with that document?
7 MR. ROBINSON: Fourteen.
8 JUDGE KWON: If Mr. Karadzic could kindly deal with it live in
9 order to save time.
10 MS. McKENNA: Your Honour, if I may, I believe this document is
11 already admitted as D3156.
12 JUDGE KWON: Ah-hah. That -- then it resolves everything.
13 So shall we give the number for the statement?
14 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour, 65 ter 1D07220 will be D3364.
15 JUDGE KWON: The remaining associated exhibits will be admitted
16 and be given a number in due course by the Registry.
17 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellencies.
19 I would now like read the summary in English of Mr. Dusan Kozic's
21 [In English] Dusan Kozic was born in Ljubina on
22 8th of January [sic], 1958. He was an MP in the BH parliament from 1990
23 until 1992, and later a member of the Assembly of the Serbian People, and
24 National Assembly of Republika Srpska. As national tensions grew and
25 transferred to the assembly, the HDZ and SDA parties constantly disrupted
1 the partnership agreed after the elections. The reconciliatory tones in
2 the National Assembly were most often of Dr. Karadzic.
3 Dusan Kozic became the prime minister of Republika Srpska from
4 18th of August, 1994, to 16th of October, 1995. The government was
5 responsible to the National Assembly. Dusan Kozic found that the work of
6 the government was independent from the Presidency.
7 Dr. Radovan Karadzic neither carried out, ordered, supported, nor
8 in any other way influenced the commission of war crimes against the
9 non-Serb population in BH. Dr. Karadzic fully supported a decision of
10 the government giving powers to the MUP and the Ministry of Justice and
11 administration to collect information on crimes against humanity and
12 international law relating to victims of all nationalities.
13 Dusan Kozic and his colleagues worked hard to establish law and
14 order in BH. He underwent efforts to make it impossible for any army or
15 the police to abuse their positions, and to remove MUP employees that
16 were overstepping their powers. The government made exceptional efforts
17 to enable to -- independence of the judiciary.
18 The formation of the SAOs were based on the laws of that time and
19 were public. Alija Izetbegovic was informed and included in the
21 The role of the War Presidencies was to replace the
22 Municipal Assemblies in order to make the work more efficient in the
23 situations when we -- the assembly couldn't gather. They were informed
24 that they must adhere to the decisions and guidelines regarding their
25 work and any decision that impinged on the jurisdiction of the republican
1 organs would be invalid. The government endeavoured to curb the
2 self-will of the War Presidencies. A number of orders from various
3 War Presidencies were suspended but the republican organs still had
4 problems with establishing effective power in certain municipalities.
5 In July 1995, a government delegation visited Srebrenica.
6 Dusan Kozic recalls that the VRS demanded that the municipal secretariats
7 for National Defence mobilise all available means of transport to
8 evacuate Muslim citizens to Tuzla at their own request. The government
9 did not have a prepared evacuation plan for the civilians from
11 In August 1995, Mr. Dusan Kozic attended a meeting between the
12 political and military leaders of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and
13 the Republika Srpska. It was discussed that NATO and UNPROFOR were
14 co-operating militarily with the B and H army by providing intelligence.
15 At this meeting, Dr. Karadzic noted that future peace plans to be signed
16 by negotiators must be shown to the Republika Srpska Assembly showing
17 commitment to constitutionality and legality. The incident at Markale
18 was also discussed. Generals Tolimir and Mladic were convinced that the
19 shells did not arrive from the Serbian positions. Mr. Dusan Kozic was
20 aware that there was a lack of co-operation between the civilian and
21 military sector. On August the 22nd of 1995, Dr. Karadzic informed
22 Dusan Kozic and his colleagues about conflicts between the military and
23 state organs of the republic, which continued until the end of the war.
24 [Interpretation] I have no questions for Mr. Kozic.
25 I think that we can do without any additional documents, so at
1 this point in time I'm not going to tender any.
2 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Mr. Kozic, as you have noted, your
3 evidence in-chief in this case has been admitted in writing, that is
4 through your written statement in lieu of your oral testimony. Now you
5 will be cross-examined by the representative of the Office of the
6 Prosecutor. Do you understand that, sir?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. McKenna.
9 MS. McKENNA: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Cross-examination by Ms. McKenna:
11 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Kozic. Now --
12 A. Good day.
13 Q. -- just before we start I'd like to remind you that we are very
14 limited in time, so I would appreciate if you could listen to my
15 questions carefully and answer them as precisely and concisely as
16 possible. Is that clear?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. You were a founder member of the SDS; isn't that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you were also a member of the SDS Main Board?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You were present at the constituting session of the assembly of
25 the Serb people in BiH in -- on the 24th of October, 1991; correct?
1 A. Could you please say that again? Would you repeat that question,
2 the date of the event, please?
3 Q. The 24th of October, 1991.
4 A. The forming of the Assembly of the Serbian People? Yes.
5 Q. Thank you. And you were awarded the order of Nemanjic by
6 Karadzic's decree on the 9th of January, 1994, due to your role as a
7 founder of the Serb Assembly and as a continuing member of the assembly.
8 That's correct, isn't it?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Now, together with Nikola Koljevic, you accompanied Mr. Karadzic
11 on his first visit to Slobodan Milosevic in September 1990, didn't you?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And an UNPROFOR cable reporting on your appointment as
14 prime minister stated, Kozic is known to be personally close and loyal to
15 Karadzic - for the parties' reference that is D1164 - would you agree
16 with this assessment?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And Mr. Karadzic also showed loyalty to you throughout his --
19 throughout your career, didn't he?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Indeed, after your resignation as prime minister - and for the
22 parties reference this is P1417, English page 81, B/C/S page 101 -
23 Mr. Karadzic stated:
24 "I take this opportunity to once again single out Mr. Kozic as
25 such example, model of hard working party member who subordinates all his
1 intentions and plans to needs of state and people and party that
2 appointed him. I want to thank him for our co-operation, although I
3 believe that we will continue co-operating in future because Mr. Kozic
4 remains our cadre and he will remain in one of important positions in the
6 This statement reflects Mr. Karadzic's loyalty to you, doesn't
8 A. I thank the president again. Yes, that is correct.
9 Q. Now, in paragraph 9 of your statement, you mention the
10 reconciliatory tones used by Mr. Karadzic and Krajisnik in the
11 National Assembly. Now, you, yourself, used language in the Bosnian Serb
12 Assembly which could not be described as reconciliatory, didn't you?
13 A. Well, you would need to refer me to it or quote. I don't think
14 that I did, no.
15 Q. Let's look at one such example.
16 MS. McKENNA: Could we please have P596.
17 JUDGE KWON: Before going further, I forgot that you raised the
18 issue of some potential changes of a technical nature.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that Mr. Kozic left the
20 possibility open, if we spotted something, but at that point he had not
21 spotted any errors yet.
22 JUDGE KWON: Let me ask you, what did you mean when you said that
23 you would make changes of a technical nature with respect to your
24 statement, Mr. Kozic?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In paragraph 2 of my statement, two
1 letters were dropped in line 4 from the bottom. The sentence makes no
2 sense. The word "kao," "as" was left out. Then in paragraph 4, this
3 initiative was supported by all the deputies. I would add the word
4 "nearly everyone" because three of our colleagues remained in the Muslim
5 assembly. So this does not essentially have an effect on the whole, so
6 we can just continue.
7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. And in paragraph 1 says that your
8 birthday is 8th of December, but Mr. Karadzic read -- said in his summary
9 that your birthday was 8th of January. Which is correct?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 8th of December is correct.
11 I did hear that but I did not react.
12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Back to you, Ms. McKenna.
13 MS. McKENNA: Thank you, Your Honour. I believe I may have
14 misspoke, I'm looking for P956.
15 Q. Now, Mr. Kozic, these are the minutes of the 16th Assembly of the
16 assembly of -- sorry, excuse me, 16th session of the Assembly of the
17 Serbian People in BH held on 12 May 1992. You'll see that on page 1,
18 item 1 is the report on political conditions and the war in the
19 Serbian Republic of BH to be presented by Radovan Karadzic. Now, during
20 Mr. Karadzic's presentation, he set out the strategic goals of the
21 Bosnian Serb people but I'd like to focus on what you said in this
22 regard. And that's at English page 28 and B/C/S page 23. And you
23 state -- regarding item 1, you said:
24 "The situation in the Herzegovina theatre of operations is now
25 good and the only objection we have is that too many weapons are being
1 taken away."
2 Then you continue:
3 "And I have asked for the floor because of the following
4 suggestion: The enemy, Ustashas and Mujahedin must be defeated by
5 whatever means are necessary and only after that can we negotiate."
6 Now, you'll agree, Mr. Kozic, that references to Ustashas and
7 Mujahedin do not suggest a tolerance on your own part for the Croats and
8 Muslims, do they?
9 A. I don't see what else war would represent except suffering and
10 tragedy for everyone, and the Ustashas and the Mujahedin are our enemies
11 to this very day, so in the Balkans this is just general rhetoric.
12 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter notes the -- we could not hear
13 the middle part of what the witness said.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] International law is still at war
15 today with the Mujahedin.
16 MS. McKENNA:
17 Q. Mr. Kozic, the interpreter did not catch the entirety of your
18 response. You stated:
19 "I don't see what else war would represent except suffering and
20 tragedy for everyone, and the Ustashas and the Mujahedin are our enemies
21 to this very day, so in the Balkans this is just general rhetoric."
22 Would you like to add anything to that response?
23 A. My address at the assembly had to do with defeating the enemy.
24 This is the goal of every war. Our enemies are referred to then as
25 Ustashas and Mujahedin because both of them were present in the
1 Herzegovina front. I still stand by what I said then because I believe
2 that we needed to win the war in order to be able to negotiate.
3 Q. Thank you. And if we could look briefly at your acceptance
4 speech on becoming prime minister, that's P1398, and that was -- while
5 the document was coming up, I'll remind you this was the 44th session of
6 the Republika Srpska Assembly on the 18th of August, 1994. And could we
7 please have page 11 of the English and page 7 of the B/C/S. And you will
8 see that you state that:
9 "For more than two years, the Serbian people is engaged in a
10 superhuman struggle for its survival and freedom. The liberation
11 struggle of the Serbian people and its heroic army have created and
12 developed their state and showed to the enemy and the entire world that
13 we shall not succumb to the Muslim Croatian plans to subjugate us and
14 destroy our are national being. Great military victories have been
15 achieved, Republika Srpska covers almost all its ethnic areas in the
16 former Bosnia and Herzegovina."
17 So again, your own language, upon taking position as
18 prime minister, doesn't suggest a tolerance for Muslims or Croatians,
19 does it?
20 A. You are wrong, Madam Prosecutor. Muslims and Croats who were our
21 neighbours are not mentioned here. The Balkans were our common living
22 space. We lived before and during the war, ones next to the others. I'm
23 talking about military formations here. And there is no intolerance
24 towards the people, but rather towards extremist military units.
25 Q. Let's turn to a different topic. Could we please have article --
1 or 65 ter number 17457. Now, this, Mr. Kozic, is the document that you
2 discuss in paragraph 12 of your statement, and it's the article from
3 "Javnost" paper, which you state that the -- the document will be coming
4 on your screen in a moment but I'm just reminding you that this is the
5 article -- or informing you that we are about to discuss the article
6 which you say discusses alleged weapons smuggling that was uncovered
7 thanks to you. And at paragraph 12 you state:
8 "This is a journalistic explanation of the case and does not
9 contradict the views of the SDS."
10 Now I'd like you to just look at the top of that article where it
11 states, "Information of the assembly of the eastern and old Herzegovina
12 municipalities." Mr. Kozic, in fact, this is a reproduction of a
13 statement made by SDS Main Board member Bozidar Vucurevic isn't it?
14 A. I don't remember the articles. I do remember the events, but not
15 this. But, of course, if you mean about what I said here, namely that
16 the official authority representatives should not be involved in dirty
17 games, this is still my opinion, or I share it.
18 Q. We will come on to discuss the substance of the article, but
19 I just want to clarify its source. Could we please have 65 ter
20 number 24920. I'm afraid we don't have an English translation of this
21 article yet. If we could go to page 2 of this document -- well,
22 actually, first, you'll note the cover page which states that this is a
23 statement by Mr. Vucurevic; isn't that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 MS McKENNA: Could we have page 2 of -- ah, I see we in fact do
1 have an English translation. Could we please see page 2 of the document.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excuse me, could we just read what
3 this is? The subject, is it a statement or is it an announcement, a
4 statement issued for the press? Because it's not a statement like a
5 witness statement. It's a statement given for the press, and it's nicely
6 translated here as announcement, because if we don't clarify that now
7 it's going to create a lot of confusion.
8 JUDGE KWON: I don't think it created much confusion. I think
9 it's clear to the witness.
10 MS. McKENNA: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. Now if you could just review this statement by Mr. Vucurevic, can
12 you confirm that this is the statement that was reproduced in the
13 "Javnost" paper?
14 A. I cannot. The documents and the dates have to be compared. It
15 is impossible to conclude just by looking at the screen to make a direct
16 link. So I cannot from this point in time confirm this with any
18 MS. McKENNA: Your Honour, I'd like to tender this document.
19 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we will receive it.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6284, Your Honours.
22 MS. McKENNA: Now, turning to the substance of the statement,
23 could we please see 65 ter number 11543.
24 Q. Now, this you'll see, Mr. Kozic, is a report of the
25 Ministry of the Interior, Sarajevo, on the uncovering of smuggling of
1 weapons into Bosnia-Herzegovina, and -- but as it states in the first
2 line it relates to events which occurred during the night of
3 24th May 1991 in the Bileca municipality. I'd like to focus on the
4 second paragraph, please, where it states:
5 "At around 440 hours, a police patrol signalled a Javasta [phoen]
6 freight vehicle which was coming from the direction of Niksic to stop.
7 Since the vehicle did not stop at the patrol's signal, a police patrol
8 was notified and it stopped and inspected the vehicle."
9 If we could perhaps move to the second page in the English and if
10 you review the next paragraph, it states that:
11 "On checking the identity of the passengers, it was established
12 that the vehicle was driven by its owner, Milutin Popovic, and that
13 Dusan Kozic and Momcilo Tohojl were in the vehicle with him."
14 If we can focus on the fourth paragraph of the document, it
16 "While the driving documents were being checked, Dusan Kozic came
17 out of the vehicle and presented himself as a member of the parliament of
18 the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. He showed an MP's
19 identity card and requested that immunity measures be applied towards
21 Now, Mr. Kozic, you were released by the Bileca police
22 immediately while the other people in the vehicle were taken into
23 custody; isn't that correct?
24 A. Neither were they taken into custody, nor was I released. We
25 just came in front of the police station and when I noted that the police
1 was multi-party or rather multi-ethnic, that there were both Serbs and
2 Muslims among the policemen, I then left it to the police to do their
3 job. I was afraid of abuse, namely that the policemen might be
4 uni-ethnic and that the weapons would be sent on to Stolac and Mostar
5 because the party position was that the arms were to be sent to the
6 barracks. We had no need to do anything special. The arms were to be
7 sent to the barracks. The police did their job. They conducted the
8 on-site investigation. The weapons were handed over at the barracks in
9 Bileca and the proceedings were completed before a court and it is now an
10 adjudicated fact; namely, the judgement was passed. As I told you, both
11 the people and the weapons ended up in the barracks of the
12 Yugoslav People's Army in Bileca.
13 Q. Well, let's see what this contemporaneous document states about
14 what happened on that evening. If we could focus on the next paragraph,
15 which is the fifth paragraph, it states:
16 "After establishing the identity of the persons, the patrol
17 inspected the cargo platform and established that there were crates under
18 the tarpaulin in which Kozic claimed wood was being transported. Since
19 on Dusan Kozic's orders the driver refused to show the documentation and
20 allow an inspection of the vehicle and cargo, the vehicle and persons in
21 it were taken to Bileca public security station. And it notes that they
22 found eight crates in the cargo section, each containing ten Russian-made
23 automatic rifles and 16.800 bullets for these weapons."
24 Mr. Kozic, rather than uncovering the smuggling, you were taking
25 an active part in it, weren't you?
1 A. I did not take an active part in it and I did not uncover it, but
2 the police uncovered it which I said loud and clear. And the first part
3 of what you said was meant to be a joke. I said wood because I didn't
4 know the ethnicity, the ethnic composition of the patrol which stopped
5 us. I requested we should go in front of the public security station,
6 when I saw there were both Serbs and Muslims there, then I left it to
7 them to do their work. I didn't even want to attend and stand there next
8 to them.
9 MS. McKENNA: Your Honours, I tender this document.
10 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we will receive it.
12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6285, Your Honours.
13 MS. McKENNA: I would just like to show the witness one more
14 document on this topic, if I may have your indulgence, before the break.
15 Could we please have 65 ter number 11544.
16 Q. Now, Mr. Kozic, this is an article reporting a speech by
17 Mr. Karadzic at an SDS press conference at which he commented on the
18 transport of weapons from Bileca. And in the second paragraph, he's
19 reported as saying that SDS claims that the weapons that were transported
20 through Bileca were trophy weapons and it was only coincidence that the
21 SDS deputy in the Bosnia-Herzegovina Assembly, Dusan Kozic, found himself
23 Now, Mr. Kozic, you'll agree that 80 automatic rifles and over --
24 almost 17.000 bullets couldn't be considered trophy weapons.
25 A. I have to tell you that neither then nor now did I know what was
1 under the tarpaulin. And Dr. Karadzic was quite correct, I was there
2 accidentally because the Serbian personnel from the MUP had the same
3 information as the Muslim personnel and they reported that something was
4 being smuggled. And you are now taking the whole event out of the
5 context in which it took place. This took place at the moment when
6 50 trucks carrying weapons had entered Croatia from Hungary which was
7 reported around the clock in the immediate in Bosnia-Herzegovina at the
8 time, and there was a stampede among the people. The wounds from the
9 Second World War were opened again because there is not a single family
10 there from which someone did not perish in Jasenovac or in one of the
11 pits. We could not convince them that it was not necessary to go and try
12 to find weapons but that they should rather respond to mobilisation
13 call-ups in an orderly manner, or if they were not called up that they
14 would report themselves to the staffs of Territorial Defence. And you
15 have to hear this to the end because this moment is decisive for what I
16 have to say.
17 The SDS was building its -- the safety and security of the
18 Yugoslav People's Army as the only legitimate military force. I learned
19 about this event, and I went as the general manager of Soko, the socially
20 owned enterprise, in front of these men. My official car with my driver
21 drove in front of the truck. I didn't want them to be manipulated. And
22 I'm telling you people were left to their own devices and trying to
23 obtain any weapons they could find, those left from the Second World War
24 or hunting rifles or they would buy it. It was a sort of psychosis that
25 was widespread just before the outbreak of the war. And that was the
1 context in which this event took place, and this, what I have just told,
2 you is the correct interpretation.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MS. McKENNA: I'd like to tender this document, please.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we will receive it.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6286, Your Honours.
7 MS. McKENNA: Your Honour, I note the time.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We will have a break for 45 minutes and resume
9 at 1.20.
10 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.35 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 1.23 p.m.
12 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Ms. McKenna.
13 MS. McKENNA: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. Mr. Kozic, I'd like to look at the letters that you refer to in
15 paragraph 21 of your statement and which you describe in that paragraph
17 "Documents which talk about my efforts as prime minister to
18 maintain legality in the work and make it impossible for the army or the
19 police to abuse its position of being an armed force."
20 MS McKENNA: Could we please see 1D25783. I'm afraid I don't
21 have the exhibit number.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D3368, Your Honours.
23 MS. McKENNA:
24 Q. Now, Mr. Kozic, this is a letter from you to the
25 Ministry of the Interior dated 15 February 1995. Stating that according
1 to the VRS, on 13 February 1995, members of the Bijeljina public security
2 centre confiscated 14 tonnes of fuel intended for the
3 35th Logistics Battalion of the VRS, and you in this document are
4 ordering that this fuel be returned. And the second document that -- to
5 which you refer in paragraph 21 is a fax of the same date, following up
6 on this issue.
7 Now, as prime minister, you were involved in the procurement of
8 logistical support for the VRS, weren't you?
9 A. Not only to the VRS but the VRS and the people in the republic as
10 a whole. The main duty of the government was to supply the materiel for
11 successful waging of war and also for the survival of the people under
12 wartime conditions.
13 Q. And this included during the period in which, according to your
14 statement, there was a lack of co-operation between the military and the
15 civilian sectors, didn't it?
16 A. Do you have in mind this letter or -- I haven't really understood
17 you well.
18 [No interpretation]
19 Q. Sorry, I didn't receive interpretation of the witness's last --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the last
22 MS. McKENNA:
23 Q. Could you please repeat your last statement, Mr. Kozic?
24 A. I asked you to repeat the question to me, and whether you had in
25 mind the document which I have on the screen in front of me, or are you
1 asking me a completely new question.
2 Q. My question is simply whether you were involved in the
3 procurement of logistical support for the VRS in the period during which
4 you state that there was a lack of co-operation between the civilian and
5 military authorities, that is summer and autumn of 1995.
6 A. I have clearly answered that question, that the main task of the
7 government was to create all material and technical conditions for the
8 people to survive in its territory and also for the waging of the war.
9 So it wasn't only my task but the task of the government as a whole.
10 Q. Thank you. I'd like to look at some meetings that you held in
11 connection with procurement for the VRS and other forces.
12 MS. McKENNA: Could we please have P1473. And I'd like to see
13 page 143 in the English and 145 in the B/C/S. Sorry, I appear to have
14 the incorrect reference. If we could have -- move to page 306 of the
15 English and page 310 of the B/C/S; and that's P1473.
16 Q. Now, Mr. Kozic, this is a meeting with General Mladic and other
17 VRS officers on the 17th of August, 1995, to discuss procurement. And
18 again, according to your statement, this is a period in which there was a
19 lack of co-operation or no co-operation between the military and the
20 civilian sectors. And you'll see, if we move to -- at the bottom of that
21 page in the English and continuing over you state that 100 rifles and 500
22 shells have been procured in Bulgaria. You discuss who paid for them and
23 you discuss providing ammunition, money for ammunition, setting up a team
24 to procure ammunition, and the procurement of ammunition from the -- or
25 for the Herzegovina Corps from the Trebinje hydroelectric power station.
1 So this evidence, doesn't it, very practical co-operation between the
2 military and the civilian authorities in August 1995?
3 A. Well, no, Madam Prosecutor. I stand by my statement that it was
4 forced, unwilling, and depended on the situation on the ground. Of
5 course, it did not imply a complete lack of communication. Everyone was
6 doing his own job. It was difficult for us. We tried the best we could
7 and the whole arrangement was made at the time when I had taken up my
8 appointment in August 1995 [as interpreted] and Serbia had already
9 imposed sanctions on Republika Srpska and we had already been under
10 sanctions imposed by the European union, that is to say the rest of the
11 world, and such an atmosphere necessitated that all factors in Republika
12 Srpska make the maximum effort if we were to survive. So I don't really
13 see what you want to achieve with this question. Of course, we were
14 doing this. The ministry was doing its job. It had to supply the army
15 and the people with what was needed.
16 Q. Thank you. Just to clarify the transcript or the recorded that
17 you took up your appointment in August 1995. It's correct that you took
18 up your appointment in August of --
19 A. 1994.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. On the same topic, if we look at a similar meeting two days
23 later, at page 308 of the English and 312 of the B/C/S, here, this is on
24 the 19th of August, 1995, and here you're informing General Mladic that a
25 group from Bulgaria will come and quote a price for the ammunition. And
1 the group is coming with Branislav Lainovic, via whom the FRY is
2 procuring ammunition. Now, Mr. Lainovic, to whom you referred at this
3 meeting, was a leader of the Serbian Guard paramilitary unit and was also
4 known for his activities as a participant in the illegal arms trade, the
5 drugs trade and other criminal activities; isn't that correct?
6 A. I don't know, and I think not. Please show me the translation so
7 I can see the whole text and then I try -- I can try to remember the
8 whole event because I don't see the version in Serbian.
9 Q. The question -- the version in Serbian should be before you. My
10 question is whether Mr. Lainovic to whom you refer --
11 A. I don't have the Serbian version. Oh, here it is. Could we
12 scroll down on the Serbian version so I can see the end of the sentence.
13 Q. Mr. Kozic, perhaps my question was unclear. My question is
14 simply, in this document, you refer to Mr. Branislav Lainovic. My
15 question for you is: This man was a known paramilitary and participant
16 in the illegal arms trade, drugs trade and other criminal activities;
17 isn't that correct?
18 A. I'm not familiar with his CV. And secondly, he didn't even come
19 there. I don't even remember this meeting. We never had any dealings
20 with Mr. Lainovic, but we did with Bulgaria. Mr. Lainovic never came to
21 Pale, nor did we meet to discuss this topic. And we did have some
22 arrangements with Bulgaria.
23 Q. Thank you. Let's look at a document that relates to some more
24 direct meetings that you had, and that's P6210.
25 So, Mr. Kozic, this is an Eastern Bosnia Corps security
1 department document dated the 20th of September, 1995. It's addressed to
2 General Tolimir. And it states:
3 "In the evening hours of 19 September 1995, at a working meeting
4 of the Bijeljina Municipal Assembly which was attended, among others, by
5 Mr. Frenki and Bozovic, from the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic
6 of Serbia, and Zeljko Raznatovic, aka Arkan, on one side, and Mr. Kozic,
7 the prime minister of the Republika Srpska, Mr. Boro Bozic, and organs of
8 the authorities of the Bijeljina region on the other. It was allegedly
9 agreed that Arkan and his units should take and liberate Teocak. This
10 operation to liberate Teocak would be financed and paid for by the
11 republican government, Kozic and Bozic, and it would cost 3 million
13 Now, do you recall attending this meeting in September 1995?
14 A. The meeting never took place. I only know about Frenki from the
15 media, and the same goes for Mr. Bozovic. I only met Zeljko Raznatovic
16 once in passing in Banja Luka. I don't remember the date. The meeting
17 didn't take place. I don't know these people, nor was this matter
18 discussed. There wasn't even any intention to discuss it.
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kozic. I'd like to move on to a completely
20 different topic. In paragraph 17 of your statement, you discuss P3115,
21 which are the minutes of a government session held on the
22 24th of August, 1994. And in connection with that session, you state, in
23 its work the government was indeed independent. President Karadzic
24 attended the government session without participating in its work, only a
25 few times, and out of respect.
1 I'd like to read to you a statement that Mr. Karadzic made in
2 connection with your predecessor, Mr. Lukic, and he made this statement
3 at the 34th Session of the Republika Srpska Assembly in August and
4 September 1993 - and for the parties' reference, this is P1379, English
5 page 255, B/C/S page 289 - and Mr. Karadzic stated:
6 "Believe me, the government is mine. I am responsible for its
7 functioning. I appoint and propose the government mandator. I have a
8 brilliant relationship with Vlado Lukic. We are often together. He
9 often comes to my cabinet. But I do not see the government. I attended
10 government sessions twice. I am even entitled to be in the lead of the
11 government to schedule sessions."
12 So Mr. Karadzic is saying that while he doesn't attend many
13 government sessions, he keeps a tight control of the government through
14 Mr. Lukic. Was that your experience?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Well, let's look at another statement by Mr. Karadzic, and this
17 is 65 ter number 45416.
18 And this, Mr. Kozic, is a short video from a talk show called
19 "Open Programme" which is on Banja Luka TV and Mr. Karadzic is a guest on
20 the show.
21 MR. ROBINSON: Do we know the date of this?
22 MS. McKENNA: We don't have a specific date for this, but it is
23 clear from the context of the document that it is during the war.
24 If I may have the Court's indulgence for a moment, we are just
25 having some technical issues.
1 I'll come back to the video, my apologies.
2 Q. Moving to an entirely different --
3 A. I have the text.
4 Q. Perhaps we can simply look at the text of the video.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
6 MS. McKENNA:
7 Q. So in this, Mr. Karadzic states:
8 "At this moment we have a combination of a parliamentary and a
9 presidential system. I have plenty of authority, even more than
10 I exploit, and the parliament also has a lot of authority and that is
11 where some unity has been achieved. Now I must tend to the government
12 more because that is what the constitution allows me to do and requires
13 me to do so that the unity of executive power is realised because we must
14 control the executive power on a daily basis. We have to keep an eye on
15 it daily."
16 So in this interview, Mr. Karadzic speaks of controlling the
17 executive power on a daily basis. This, again, suggests a tight control
18 of the government by Mr. Karadzic, doesn't it?
19 A. No. You are relying too much on media statements or articles
20 from the papers, and taking that from the context in which these
21 statements were made and with which intention, and that will lead you to
22 wrong conclusions because some statements had a completely different
23 purpose, to mobilise the people. I remember the debates during Lukic's
24 government - Lukic was a great man by the way - that the government was
25 rather static, and it wasn't up to the demands of the time. They were
1 being too lenient. That's what I suppose the president meant. And when
2 he says that he demanded fast, expeditious work, that was at a time of
3 twofold sanctions. And now I can say - and now first apologise to
4 Mr. Karadzic - something that few people in the RS know. On the 60th day
5 of my term in office, I totally cut off the cash flow toward the
6 president of the republic and replaced each and every dime under
7 government control --
8 Q. I'm afraid I'm going to interrupt you. Again I'm going to remind
9 you of what I asked you at the start of your testimony which is to focus
10 very specifically on the questions that I asked you and give answers that
11 are as concise as possible.
12 MS. McKENNA: Your Honours, I'd like to tender --
13 A. All right. So the answer to this question would be this
14 statement was given for different motives. There was close co-operation,
15 but certainly not under absolute control as the statement reads, at least
16 not during my term in office.
17 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson.
18 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, we think it can be admitted for context, no
20 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We will receive it.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6287, Your Honours.
22 MS. McKENNA:
23 Q. Now, again moving to a different topic, Mr. Kozic. At
24 paragraph 24 of your statement, you state that you generally knew that
25 operations were taking place to neutralise the Muslim army in the
1 enclaves and that the government in Pale only had general information
2 about fighting in Srebrenica. And you also state that the VRS demanded
3 that the municipal secretariats for National Defence mobilise all their
4 available means of transport in order to evacuate the Muslim civilians
5 from Srebrenica. I'd just like to clarify on -- your evidence on this
6 point. It's correct, isn't it, that the civilian authorities worked
7 together with the military authorities in connection with the Srebrenica
9 A. This is a -- there is an innuendo in your question, and it's
10 wrong. We received information that many civilians had been gathered at
11 Potocari and we used the resources of the surrounding municipalities and
12 the economic operators to provide a means of transport to take the
13 civilians elsewhere, but at the time we didn't even know where they would
14 go or where they had come from.
15 Q. Okay. Well, we are going to look at some documents which the
16 civilian authorities received in connection with the operation.
17 MS. McKENNA: Now, if we could have P4528, please.
18 JUDGE KWON: By "operation" what did you mean, Ms. McKenna?
19 MS. McKENNA: It is the witness -- by operation I mean the
20 take-over operation and the evacuation of civilians.
21 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Yes, please proceed.
22 MS. McKENNA:
23 Q. So, Mr. Kozic, this is a Ministry of Defence order dated the
24 12th of July, 1995, and it states, pursuant to a request by the
25 Main Staff of the VRS dated 12th of July regarding the mobilisation of
1 buses, and it's immediately mobilise all available buses from the
2 municipalities of Zvornik, Visegrad, Vlasenica, Milici and Bratunac.
3 Now, this document shows that the Ministry of Defence is
4 mobilising buses at the request rather than the demand of the VRS, as you
5 characterised it in your statement; isn't that correct?
6 A. But I believe that my statement reads just the same, that the
7 secretariat of the defence --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat and speak
10 MS. McKENNA:
11 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Kozic. Could you please repeat
12 your response and speak a little slower for the interpreters?
13 A. I don't see a difference between the document on the screen and
14 my statement which reads that the VRS requested from the municipal
15 secretariat of national defence the mobilisation of all available means
16 to evacuate the Muslim civilians who had expressed a wish to go to Tuzla,
17 and that's what my report says.
18 Q. Thank you for that clarification, Mr. Kozic. It appears to be a
19 translation issue with the English version of your statement.
20 But staying with the issue of information that was available to
21 the civilian authorities, could we please see P4935.
22 Now, Mr. Kozic, this is a dispatch from the Zvornik public
23 security centre to the Republika Srpska office of the minister of the
24 interior, and it's dated 12th of July, 1995, and it provides detailed
25 information in relation to the Hotel Fontana meeting and the action being
1 taken following it. I'd just like focus on paragraph 5 or conclusion
2 number 5, which is, I believe, on the next page in the B/C/S. And it
4 "Acting upon the President Karadzic's order which was conveyed to
5 us today over the phone, the 2nd Company of the Zvornik special separate
6 police units shall be dispatched to Srebrenica with a task to secure all
7 facilities of vital importance in the town at all costs and protect them
8 from looting and misappropriation."
9 And it states:
10 "A platoon of this company will lie in ambush at Ravni Buljim
11 since the Muslim groups were spotted fleeing along this axis."
12 And just together with this document, I'd like us to look at
13 P4942. Again, this is a document dated the next day, it's
14 13th July 1995, and it's from the Zvornik public security centre to --
15 reporting to the minister of the interior, and it states:
16 "At the meeting with General Mladic this morning, we were
17 informed that the VRS was continuing operations towards Zepa and leaving
18 all other work to the MUP as follows."
19 And there are a number of bullet points: The first is evacuation
20 of the remaining civilian population from Srebrenica to Kladanj, about
21 15.000 by bus. Second, killing of about 8.000 Muslim soldiers whom we
22 blocked in the woods near Konjevic Polje. Fighting is going on. This
23 job is being done solely by MUP units, and the document continues. Now
24 my question for you, Mr. Kozic, is: You agree that these documents are
25 providing the minister of the interior, a member of your government, with
1 very specific information in relation to what was going on in Srebrenica?
2 A. No. I don't agree. Please take into consideration that on the
3 11th I got my third child and I was often absent from the 11th of July
4 until the end of my term in office. You are saying that this is
5 co-ordinated but that's wrong. Information came in from various sides
6 and the letter that we saw a short while ago, the one sent to the
7 president, the government urgently replied and sent out a commission to
8 make a snapshot of the situation so that we be informed of the state of
10 All reports depending on their source had different connotations
11 so we didn't have insight into the real situation. That is why we
12 decided first to take care of the civilians, and to make possible regular
13 life in Srebrenica by sending police there and we also sent a government
14 delegation there to -- on a fact-finding mission. And we wanted to take
15 care of the civilians. Certainly there wasn't -- there were no Serbs
16 there. So we -- I wanted to take care of the Muslim civilians to see
17 where they were from, Srebrenica, Bratunac, where they wanted to go. So
18 what you see on the screen is the product of the personal knowledge of
19 the author, because we all more or less got information from the media.
20 What made our life difficult for three years and killed thousands of
21 people now was resolved, liberated, and that is the content of this
22 dispatch, and please don't take it out of its temporal context.
23 Q. Just to --
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an intervention in the
25 transcript, line 9, page 79, this witness said "sending a commissioner
1 and the police," the "commissioner" was omitted.
2 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Do you confirm that, Mr. Kozic?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course. I first said a
4 commissioner and police, and a government delegation to write a report to
5 create normal conditions for the protection of civilians and property.
6 MS. McKENNA:
7 Q. And just to clarify, Mr. Kozic, in your statement it states that
8 your third child was born on the 18th of July and then in the
9 transcript -- then today you said that your child was born --
10 A. No, it was on the 11th.
11 Q. On the 11th, thank you. There is a number of documents in
12 evidence which we don't have time to go through but which show that
13 Mr. Karadzic was also receiving much information during or as the
14 Srebrenica operations progressed - and for the parties' reference they
15 are P2276, P4450, P5 -- excuse me, 3054 and P4463 - now, Mr. Karadzic,
16 the minister of the interior and the minister of the defence were all
17 members of the Supreme Command. You were also a member of the
18 Supreme Command, weren't you?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And yet your position is that, as prime minister, you had only
21 very general information about what was going on in Srebrenica?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You also state in paragraph 24 of your statement that the Muslim
24 civilians asked on their own to be transported to Tuzla, and you talk
25 about the fact that there was no prepared evacuation plan. You didn't
1 know whether the civilians would wish to go or where they would go.
2 Could we please see P2996. This is a dispatch of 12th of July, 1995,
3 from the chief of the Zvornik public security centre, again to the office
4 of the minister of the interior. And it states, at number 5:
5 "A meeting will begin at 1000 hours with representatives of
6 UNPROFOR and the International Red Cross and a Muslim representative from
7 Srebrenica at which an agreement will be reached on the evacuation of the
8 civilian population from Potocari to Kladanj, a hundred trucks have been
9 provided for transport."
10 Now, Mr. Kozic, the meeting being referred to in this document
11 was the third Hotel Fontana meeting between Mladic and representatives
12 from Srebrenica's Muslim population following which the Muslim population
13 was evacuated. So before that meeting took place, 100 trucks had already
14 been provided to transport the civilian population out, in anticipation
15 of the evacuation of the civilian population.
16 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, could we zoom up para 5 and ask the
17 witness to read out the sentence?
18 MS. McKENNA: Certainly.
19 JUDGE KWON: You may collapse the English for the moment. Could
20 you read the point 5.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "At 10.00, a meeting with UNPROFOR
22 and ICRC representatives begins and with the Muslim representative from
23 Srebrenica, where agreement will be reached about the evacuation of all
24 civilian population from Potocari to Kladanj, so that they may have more
25 problems there. One hundred trucks for transportation have already been
1 made available."
2 JUDGE KWON: I remember we had a discussion about -- as to the
3 translation of this sentence, whether the meeting has begun or will
5 MS. McKENNA: Your Honour, I'm afraid I wasn't aware of that
6 discussion, but thank you for bringing that to my attention.
7 JUDGE KWON: Very well. I'll leave it at that. Please continue.
8 MS. McKENNA:
9 Q. Well, it appears on the basis of that translation that the
10 meeting took place but -- excuse me, prior to the meeting taking place,
11 100 trucks had already been provided to evacuate civilians from
12 Srebrenica. So my question for you is: This doesn't suggest that the
13 civilians had any option to remain, does it?
14 A. It does not suggest what you're saying. You're persistently
15 trying to get an affirmative answer to your assertion, whereas all the
16 facts indicate that it is just the way he says, that there is confusion
17 in the field, that some decisions must be made within half an hour by
18 people who are there, officials there, and everything that I have said is
19 proved by the documents that you are showing, the documentation, the
20 sending of a team, the sending of the police to prevent robberies
21 quickly, and so the responsible people had to reach decisions quickly in
22 order to guard the civilians. And this is what I'm saying, that in these
23 conversations we then found out what their wishes were. We did not make
24 these up. It's a two-day whirl wind where all these decisions were
25 brought, communication was conducted via telephones, Motorolas, and all
1 of that, so I don't know why you would wish your conclusion to be the way
2 it is, whereas everything in the documents indicates that it's quite the
3 opposite. There was chaos and the civilian authorities are trying to
4 introduce order as soon as possible because the care that I was talking
5 about was not directed at the Serbs because all the Serbs were already
6 dead by then and we could have lit candles for them, but it was directed
7 at the Muslim civilians.
8 Q. Well, let's look at 65 ter 13758 on that topic. And I'm afraid
9 we don't have a translation of this in your language but if I can explain
10 that it is an UNPROFOR code cable from Mr. Akashi to Mr. Annan dated
11 14th of July 1995. If we look at the second page, point 6, it states,
12 UNMO's report that they have been unable to sight any Bosnian civilians
13 in Srebrenica. BSA troops have been sighted cleaning out the town by
14 removing livestock, vehicles, household goods and other valuables.
15 Karadzic has installed a civilian administrator in Srebrenica and the
16 first Serb families have begun to move into the town.
17 So, Mr. Kozic, it's clear from this document that contrary to
18 your evidence, by the 14th of July, 1995, there were no Muslims left in
19 Srebrenica but, rather, it was starting to be repopulated by Serbs.
20 I should say no Muslims left in Srebrenica town.
21 A. I don't believe in the authenticity of this letter. Perhaps this
22 was written, but as I say, it does not reflect the truth in the field, on
23 the ground. In three days, while the army was moving, only Serbs who
24 survived and wanted to return could come in to see if their house was
25 still intact. But as I say, I don't know. Until the 14th I was in
1 Herzegovina and in the hospital in Podgorica, so I think that this
2 passage does not reflect the actual state of affairs. There was nobody
3 who could have returned there anyway. The government ordered that the
4 town be cleansed in order to prevent disease from livestock and anything
5 else that could harm the daily life of civilians, and in the documents,
6 I looked at it, you have the report of a working group that confirms
7 this, that the authorities were clearing the terrain, and preparing the
8 town for civilian life to resume.
9 MS. McKENNA: Your Honours, may I tender this document?
10 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson?
11 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we will receive it.
13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6288, Your Honours.
14 MS. McKENNA:
15 Q. Mr. Kozic on the same date, or on the 13th of July, 1995, the UN
16 commissioners for refugees, Sadako Ogata, was reported as saying that the
17 wholesale removal of Srebrenica's residents was one of the most blatant
18 examples of ethnically motivated forced displacement we have seen yet in
19 war. Is it your position that the entirety of Srebrenica's Muslim
20 position -- or population freely chose to leave the enclave?
21 A. Of course. They were probably frightened, tired, because of the
22 three-year war, exhausted. And it was probably their wish to leave, and
23 nobody asked them or made them leave. We expected them all to stay and
24 we even expected people from Bratunac and the nearby municipalities to
25 return, who had fled to Srebrenica before the war. But it's probably a
1 result of fear and the wartime psychosis that they wanted to go to a safe
2 place. So that report by Mrs. Sadako Ogata is not quite sincere.
3 Q. Thank you. Your Honours --
4 JUDGE KWON: Ms. McKenna as regards the date when the witness's
5 third child was born, I checked, compared the two statements, and in the
6 B/C/S it's noted as 11th of July.
7 MS. McKENNA: Thank you for that clarification. Yet again it's a
8 translation issue obviously.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. McKenna.
10 MS. McKENNA: Your Honour, I'm aware that I've reached the end of
11 my allocated time. I just have one brief topic to deal with, if I may
12 have your indulgence.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please go ahead.
14 MS. McKENNA:
15 Q. Mr. Kozic, again in your statement you spoke of the civilian
16 authorities conflict with the military authorities and the tension
17 between those authorities but the tensions that were heightened after the
18 fall of the RSK and the loss of territories in western Republika Srpska.
19 Now, this loss of territory was what led you to you tendering your
20 resignation in October 1995; isn't that correct?
21 A. No. The main reason was the health problems of my child, that
22 was number 1. Number 2, my colleagues from the Krajina asked that one of
23 the three leading figures of Republika Srpska comes from the Krajina
24 because the bulk of the population in the western part of
25 Republika Srpska was that, and I believe that the request was legitimate,
1 and I was already burdened by my family problems, and those two factors
2 resulted in my resignation.
3 Q. Mr. Kozic, at the 54th Session of the Assembly, on the 15th and
4 16th of October 1995, there was extensive discussion of the loss of
5 territory in western Republika Srpska, and who was to blame for it, and
6 there were calls for the dismissal of certain VRS generals and also calls
7 for your resignation.
8 And Mr. Karadzic read out your statement, your letter of
9 resignation which stated that due to a very complex situation in the
10 western part of Republika Srpska, for matters of principle and political
11 reasons, I hereby resign from the office of prime minister, and then you
12 go on to make the point that you hope that they will nominate a man from
13 the endangered areas of the western part of Republika Srpska and thereby
14 strengthen their political position.
15 So we agree that there was significant disagreement between the
16 civilian and military authorities in relation to the events in the RSK
17 and western Republika Srpska, but I would just like to focus finally on
18 Mr. Karadzic's attitude to the Srebrenica operation as stated before the
19 assembly, and in that same session where you resigned, which is P1415 for
20 the parties' reference -- well, firstly, you'll be aware as a member of
21 the Supreme Command that the take-over of Srebrenica was carried out
22 pursuant to Directive 7 which was issued by Mr. Karadzic as
23 Supreme Commander on the 8th of March, 1995. That's correct, isn't it?
24 A. I would need to look at the directive and read it first in order
25 to be able to answer you.
1 Q. Well, let's see what Mr. Karadzic said at that session. He
2 stated, at -- could we please see P1415. And could we have page 86 of
3 the English and page 111 of the B/C/S. Just while the document is coming
4 up, Mr. Kozic, at that session, at page 84 of the English and page 108 of
5 the B/C/S, Mr. Karadzic says, "I have examined, approved and signed seven
6 directives," and then we'll come on to what he says specifically about
7 Srebrenica. This is page 86 of the English, yes. So halfway down that
8 page, Mr. Karadzic states:
9 "As the Supreme Commander I stood behind the plan for Zepa and
10 Srebrenica, mainly for Srebrenica. Zepa was implied."
11 And he continues:
12 "I personally supervised the plan, without the knowledge of the
13 General Staff, not even hiding anything, but I happened to run into
14 General Krstic and advised him to go straight into town and pronounce the
15 fall of Srebrenica and later we will chase the Turks around the woods.
16 I approved an immediate task and a radical task, and I don't regret it."
17 So, Mr. Kozic, at a time when the army's operations were coming
18 up against fierce criticism, when the entire subject of that assembly was
19 criticism of the army and what -- and its responsibility for its various
20 operations, Mr. Karadzic took full responsibility for and staunchly
21 defended the Srebrenica operation; isn't that correct?
22 A. Could you please tell me the date of that assembly session,
24 Q. That assembly session was the 15th and 16th of October, 1995, and
25 you may recall it as the session where there was a heated debate about
1 the fall of the Krajina --
2 A. And where was the session, in Banja Luka or in Sanski Most?
3 Q. I'm afraid I don't have that information readily to hand.
4 JUDGE KWON: It says held in Banski Dvori in Banja Luka.
5 MS. McKENNA: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot recall those words and
7 that quote taken out of context. There were two shocks that we
8 experienced. One was the fall of Srebrenica and the other the fall of
9 the Krajina. So that the assembly dealt with those two major events in
10 our history, and I really cannot state any particulars because I
11 cannot -- I cannot remember anything.
12 MS. McKENNA:
13 Q. Well --
14 A. I cannot recall all the addresses and discussions by my
16 Q. Perhaps it will assist your recollection if I tell you that at
17 the 52nd Session of the Republika Srpska Assembly, on the
18 6th of August, 1995, so after Operation Storm, Mr. Karadzic said, again
19 on the topic of Srebrenica - and this is at page 111 and page -- of the
20 English and page 94 of the B/C/S:
21 "The time had come, and I signed Directive 7, to capture Teocak,
22 Srebrenica, Zepa and Gorazde. The directive was signed and we embarked
23 upon it."
24 He states:
25 "I was in favour of all the decisions we made and I support them
1 all. All the decisions are recorded in the Supreme Command. I ordered
2 in verbal and written form to attack Zepa and Srebrenica. There will be
3 the right time to take Gorazde just as there was the right time to
4 conquer Srebrenica."
5 So once again, Mr. Kozic, I put it to you that Mr. Karadzic's
6 position was to accept full responsibility for the military operation in
8 A. That is your assertion, but it is not mine. Simply speaking,
9 I do not recall those words, nor can I give any comment on that, because
10 I say again it was a confusing time where we had to reach decisions
11 within a second that would be acceptable for the republic, for the
12 people, for the prevailing situation around us.
13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kozic. And thank you for answering my questions.
14 MS. McKENNA: Your Honours, I have no further questions.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Ms. McKenna.
17 Mr. Karadzic, do you have re-examination?
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellencies, and I would
19 like to start immediately, if I may.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
21 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kozic, are you able to tell us where the
23 president -- the prime minister was from who replaced you?
24 A. From Banja Luka.
25 Q. And is that what you wanted to achieve with your resignation?
1 A. For a colleague of ours from the Krajina to succeed me, yes.
2 Q. Thank you. You were shown a telegram by Ambassador Akashi of the
3 14th of July, about how there were no Muslim civilians in Srebrenica. On
4 the 11th of July, did we know that the civilians from Srebrenica would
5 leave, Muslim civilians from Srebrenica? Did we know that on the
6 11th of July? Did any of us know that?
7 A. Well, this 11th of July is problematic for my personal reasons
8 because I was in Podgorica for the surgery of my child then. So I can
9 convey just comments which I learned of a few days later.
10 Q. Thank you. And did any of your associates in the government seek
11 on the 8th, 9th, 10th or 11th of July -- ask for buses and trucks for the
12 evacuation of civilians?
13 A. Until the 11th, till 10.00 when this news arrived, and while
14 I was still at Pale, this was not a request that came.
15 Q. And then on the 12th, did the police from Zvornik inform that
16 there would be a meeting at 10.00 at which a decision would be taken on
17 where the civilians would decide to go? Were you --
18 MS. McKENNA: If I -- I object to the leading nature of this
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But the document was shown, and it
21 was read that a meeting would be held at 10.00. And my question is not
22 about that document, but it's about whether it was the first meeting and
23 whether there were any other meetings before that with the Muslim side.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At that point in time, it's quite
25 certain that I wasn't in Pale, so I cannot convey the comments that I got
1 later from my colleagues with any certainty. Once I returned from
2 Podgorica, these contacts were, and I don't know the exact date, were
3 with representatives. I saw that broadcast on television. There were
4 two or three prominent householders, hosts, from Srebrenica, but before
5 that there was nothing.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Thank you. Well, this Trial Chamber saw that there were two
8 meetings prior to that on the 11th, at 8.00 in the -- at 11.00 and then
9 at 8.00 in the evening. And for the transcript, Ms. McKenna describes
10 those activities as an operation, even though the original order refers
11 to that as combat actions and not as an operation, and this is important
12 because the operation has to -- an operation has to be carried out by
13 more than one corps. Well, you were asked today whether you as a member
14 of the Supreme Command were saying that you didn't know something. Can
15 you tell us whether, in July 1995, there were any meetings held of the
16 Supreme Command?
17 A. I cannot remember that without any reminders on paper. This is
18 for the mentioned family reasons.
19 Q. But you don't know that there were any and you did not attend
20 any; is that correct?
21 A. Well, I don't know. That whole July and August period to me was
22 a very confused time.
23 Q. The question was whether you attended any meeting in the month of
24 July around Srebrenica or --
25 JUDGE KWON: The witness has answered the question. Let's move
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. And when we are asking about the Supreme Command, can you tell us
5 how frequent the Supreme Command meetings were, and what was most
6 frequently discussed there? What was the most frequent concern --
7 MS. McKENNA: Objection.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- at these meetings?
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. McKenna.
10 MS. McKENNA: Objection. This is beyond the scope of the
11 cross-examination. The witness was simply asked whether he was a member
12 of the Supreme Command. It doesn't open the door for Dr. Karadzic to
13 discuss the Supreme Command generally.
14 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, I think the door was opened --
15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson.
16 MR. ROBINSON: The question of this witness's knowledge, and how
17 much he knew and where he got his information was called -- definitely
18 put into issue by the cross-examination. I think this question is going
19 directly to that issue.
20 JUDGE KWON: And, Ms. McKenna, you asked the witness about the
21 knowledge of Mr. Karadzic.
22 MS. McKENNA: I asked the witness about his own knowledge in
23 connection with the Srebrenica take-over. The question as to what the
24 most frequent concern of the Supreme Command meeting was is entirely
25 irrelevant to that topic.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber will allow the question.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Are you able to tell us how frequently the meetings of the
6 Supreme Command were held and what was discussed in these meetings which
7 would then involve your knowledge of matters that you were summoned here
9 A. The meetings were not frequent. Most often the events on the
10 ground were discussed, the present needs and requirements of the army,
11 and the conditions that were prevalent during those particular days at
12 the front.
13 Q. Thank you. And what was the role of the government in conducting
14 the war and what were its responsibilities in terms of the army?
15 A. Just the provision of materiel and equipment.
16 Q. On page 73, you were told what I said about the government, and
17 did I ever use these authorities stemming from the constitution to call a
18 meeting of the government and to impose a certain agenda while you were
19 prime minister?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Thank you. On page 70 you said that you took over the post of
22 prime minister in August 1994 and you said that Yugoslavia had already
23 imposed its sanctions but the date was not recorded. Are you able to
24 tell the Trial Chamber when the sanctions of the Federal Republic of
25 Yugoslavia against Republika Srpska were imposed on the Drina?
1 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat your answer?
2 JUDGE KWON: Could you repeat your answer, Mr. Kozic?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think this was at the beginning
4 of August, the 4th day of August.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Thank you. Answering questions about weak co-operation or
7 misunderstandings and tensions between the army and the civilian
8 authorities, would you say that this related to supplies and provisions
9 or to the degree of the control of the civilian government by the
10 Ministry of Defence and others?
11 A. I was thinking about the degree of co-operation.
12 Q. Did this mean that there were no contacts whatsoever?
13 A. No, of course not, because of the situation that we were all in,
14 this could not have passed without any contacts. I think the Prosecutor
15 found a very nice formulation for that [B/C/S spoken] tensions were
16 present, if this is the proper way to translate it into English.
17 Q. Thank you. You mentioned earlier that this delegation that was
18 going to Srebrenica submitted a report. Were you thinking about the
19 government delegation, the working group that you sent to Srebrenica?
20 A. Yes, of course.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have 65 ter 17324
22 in e-court.
23 MS. McKENNA: Your Honours, if I may, this is the document I
24 believe that you did not admit. It was open to Mr. Karadzic to elicit
25 further information on this document in direct and then we would have
1 been able to cross-examine on it. It's impermissible for him now to seek
2 to tender it.
3 MR. ROBINSON: Actually, Mr. President, we were not going to
4 tender it until it came up in cross-examination since she started asking
5 him about the information he had received, and he mentioned, in fact,
6 during his cross-examination about the commission that had gone to
7 Srebrenica. So now we think that it's appropriate to use it. If she has
8 some recross-examination on it, you can permit that.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Please proceed.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. May I ask to zoom in on the page in Serbian, if the English
12 version is available to other participants on their screens so that
13 Mr. Kozic, the then-prime minister, could tell us whether this was the
14 report and what it contains. May I help you? It says that the visit
15 took place on the 16th; correct?
16 A. Yes, right. I'm just reading it.
17 Q. A state of war was declared?
18 A. Correct. And the War Presidency was set up, the duties and tasks
19 were formulated to clear up the town, remove the bodies.
20 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, Mr. Kozic. All you asked to the
21 witness before putting this document was you referred -- it's just
22 whether he referred to a working group. It does not open you to ask any
23 content about it. So why don't you put some foundational question about
24 it to the witness. The witness himself in the statement, he did not know
25 well about the contents. So what is your question to the witness,
1 Mr. Karadzic?
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that he did not mean this
3 one because today during cross-examination the witness said that the
4 government working group submitted a report about the situation and about
5 the removal. He said something from the contents of this document, about
6 the clearing up of the town, and so on. He said -- he mentioned a part
7 of the contents of the document during the cross-examination.
8 JUDGE KWON: Shall we find out the passage?
9 MS. McKENNA: I believe that's page 84, line 2.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe it is.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Did you see this report of the working group, and did the working
13 group implement what you requested it to do in terms of the report and
14 the proposed measures?
15 A. Of course. And we acted in accordance with that, as I said
16 earlier. When asked by the Prosecutor, I did mention some of these
17 details, what they did and I said that the report was submitted and
18 adopted and then it was implemented or we acted in accordance with it.
19 Q. But this is more about Serbs who died, on page 84. I think it's
20 later on. I will find it. Just -- I ask for your indulgence, please.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can't find it now. But the
22 witness has confirmed that he spontaneously mentioned the work, or
23 rather, the report of this commission. Can you accept that and admit the
25 JUDGE KWON: I'm not sure if the witness made any further comment
1 than those made in the statement.
2 Mr. Robinson, could you assist us?
3 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, I think what Dr. Karadzic
4 meant to ask the witness more explicitly is this the report of the
5 working group that you received as prime minister and I think if the
6 answer to that is not clear from the answer he gave at line 4, then
7 perhaps we could ask that again.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
9 Mr. Karadzic.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Can you tell us whether you were satisfied with the report and
12 whether the working group conveyed and noted everything that was a
13 problem in Srebrenica on the 16th of July, 1995?
14 A. Yes, according to their report, we later on took our moves
15 because we also agreed that the last government session would be devoted
16 to Srebrenica so that we would see what materiel in terms of food, and so
17 on, was needed to appoint certain people to certain positions so that
18 civilian life in Srebrenica could be organised more easily.
19 Q. Thank you. Did you in any report, this one or some other report,
20 receive information that POWs were shot or that anyone else in Srebrenica
21 was shot?
22 A. No.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted, please?
24 JUDGE KWON: Ms. McKenna?
25 MS. McKENNA: No objection, Your Honour.
1 JUDGE KWON: We will receive it.
2 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D3376, Your Honours.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. In a telegram dated the 12th of July, where it says that they are
6 available and have been secured, trucks and buses, how did you understand
7 this, that they were already driven there, or how do you interpret this,
8 that they are available, the trucks, I mean?
9 A. I understand and interpret this that they quickly got in touch
10 over the phone, all the representatives of war staffs from neighbouring
11 municipalities and said what they could offer to the army in order to
12 have the necessary number. That's the way we operated during the war and
13 this is how I interpreted the number.
14 Q. Did it mean that they were already sent to Potocari?
15 A. No. It was just that how many there were that we would count on
16 from how many enterprises, and so on.
17 Q. Thank you. Can we please have a look at P6210. This is an
18 alleged meeting at which supposedly what was discussed was paying for the
19 capturing of Teocak which you denied, and I wish to ask you something,
20 just one sentence so that we could hear your comment. And can we please
21 zoom in.
22 JUDGE KWON: While we are waiting for the witness --
23 Mr. Karadzic's question, Ms. McKenna, could you remind me of the witness
24 who you cross-examined in the previous time? Who was it?
25 MS. McKENNA: I'm sorry, Your Honour, I don't follow.
1 JUDGE KWON: The witness you cross-examined.
2 MS. McKENNA: Last week?
3 JUDGE KWON: Last week, the previous time.
4 MS. McKENNA: That was Radojica Mladjenjovic.
5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
6 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Could I read out to you, it says, I informed the commander of
9 IBK, General Simic, with this information. The information was received
10 from a reliable source and has not been verified, which I am going to do
11 during my further work and I will later inform you about any new
12 information I receive. What does this tell you, what sort of a document
13 is this, and do you know whether it was determined by verification
14 whether the document was correct or not?
15 A. I did not see the lower part on the screen. I am not even
16 familiar with this Mr. Todorovic, and this confirms my words that he's
17 relying himself on some rumours from the town or whoever told him this.
18 It's completely unverified this information. He says reliable but what
19 did they consider reliable from the pre-war UDBA? That was the secret
20 service. He says himself that it's unverified and that in his future
21 work he would verify it. But I said earlier that I had never seen these
22 people as civilians before the war, during the war, or after the war.
23 I didn't know them personally at all.
24 Q. Thank you. Could we now please see, probably has a new number
25 now, 65 ter 11544. Can you please read out loud the last paragraph,
1 11544, and probably it is now under a different number.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6286, Mr. Karadzic.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we zoom in,
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. I will ask you to read out loud the last paragraph.
7 A. "Asked by the journalists if the SDS would distance itself from
8 the Chetniks in eastern Herzegovina as requested by the president of the
9 Presidency Alija Izetbegovic, the SDS stated the following: We are not
10 an ideological party but a democratic one. Those who declare themselves
11 as Chetniks can find their place in the Serbian Radical Party. We do not
12 advocate any extreme requests."
13 Q. Thank you. How does that fit in with the knowledge you had and
14 your experience with our policy towards extremists, whatever they are
16 A. Precisely so, just as you said.
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. McKenna [overlapping speakers]
18 MS. McKENNA: That's outside the scope.
19 JUDGE KWON: Let's move on.
20 THE ACCUSED: What's the problem now? I don't --
21 JUDGE KWON: Ms. McKenna's objection was that it went beyond the
22 scope of the cross-examination but witness has already answered the
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But I think that the document has
25 been admitted during the cross-examination. So the Prosecution will be
1 able to refer to it and this is an opportunity for me to offer another
2 document for admission.
3 JUDGE KWON: The point has been taken. Please move on. But how
4 long do you need to conclude?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Three minutes.
6 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Kozic, that I cannot play some of our intercepted
9 conversations, yours and mine, but without playing them I would like to
10 ask you if you know who is Mladen Vukovic of Bileca?
11 A. No.
12 MS. McKENNA: In any event this is, I believe -- well, perhaps
13 Mr. Karadzic can advise where this arises from the cross-examination.
14 JUDGE KWON: We'll see.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just wanted to see from the
16 intercept what my position was after the press conference and when the
17 journalist asked me what I was saying about the Chetniks in eastern
18 Herzegovina. In the interview, I said that they should stop being
19 Chetniks. That's the link with this document which has been admitted,
20 and it's quite significant because throughout this time we made efforts,
21 it's rather very important for relations with the Muslims and their
22 feeling of security in eastern Herzegovina.
23 JUDGE KWON: If it has been admitted, you can use it in your
24 later submission.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, this one hasn't been admitted.
1 Can we have 1D05686, please.
2 JUDGE KWON: Ms. McKenna.
3 MS. McKENNA: Your Honour, Mr. Kozic answered the question before
4 I had a chance to rise to my feet but this entire topic is outside the
5 scope of the cross-examination.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
7 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, the topic that he's about to get to
8 is the weapons seizure on the 24th of May, 1991, and what his attitude
9 towards that was, which was first expressed in the news article that was
10 just discussed and is now going to -- was the topic of some conversation
11 during an intercepted conversation between Dr. Karadzic and individual in
12 the same town, Bileca. So that's where we are going with that and
13 I think it's well within the cross.
14 JUDGE KWON: In that sense, we allow the accused to proceed.
15 Yes, we have the intercept before us.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we please see the
17 next page?
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Can you please look at this? Whether these rumours concerning
20 the transport or smuggling of weapons, how did they affect the good
21 neighbourly relations within Bosnia-Herzegovina?
22 A. Are you asking me, Mr. President?
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. Well, it was a minor incident, and I think that I said in the
25 first part that what confirms that is that in Trebinje and in Ljubinje we
1 had fighters in our battalions who responded to the mobilisation call-up
2 and we lived quite peacefully and in a tolerant way. It was that their
3 extremists wanted to have interparty fights and disputes and the people
4 were frightened and during the first stage they responded in large
5 numbers to mobilisation call-ups and when the Territorial Defence called
7 Q. Thank you. When you said fighters, did you have in mind any
8 specific ethnicity? You said you had fighters but you didn't say which
10 A. In our Ljubinje Battalion, half of the fighters were Muslims, our
11 neighbours. They responded to the call-up and as long as up until 1994,
12 they responded to our call-up.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Can the speakers please slow down and make a
14 break between questions and answers for the purposes of interpretation?
15 MR. KARADZIC: [No interpretation]
16 Q. [Interpretation] They will never be safer than in eastern
17 Herzegovina. There would be no danger for them and our people should try
18 to calm down, we have reason that the passions, the cockades should calm
19 down a bit. We ask the partisans not to be partisans and we ask the
20 Chetniks not to be the Chetniks, and then the next one, the parties have
21 accepted it but now we have a sort of extremists. It should be a little
22 bit today will go to the Aktiva [phoen], and so on. How does this
23 correspond with the information you had about our position towards our
24 own extremists?
25 A. Precisely so, Mr. President. That was one of the most attractive
1 things that attracted me to you early on, the tolerance that you had.
2 You kept saying to all extremists -- extremely oriented guys in our own
3 ranks that we would not need 1942 when the Chetniks and the partisans
4 divided among themselves into two armies, you said that we would again
5 have 1942 and that now the children of the partisans would be in conflict
6 with the children of the partisans --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down for the
8 purposes of interpretation.
9 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Kozic, could you repeat your answer? You spoke
10 too fast for the interpreters.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. I apologise.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. And from where you said that was the basis of our soft policy.
14 A. The policy advocated by Mr. Karadzic could be summed up by his
15 speeches at our rallies, where he kept warning our guys who had
16 right-wing leanings or who were fans of Drazan Halovic's [phoen]
17 movement. He used to say to them this, Don't behave in a violent manner,
18 don't be too rough, because we won't get anything by that. Once again,
19 we will be reliving the year 1942, when the anti-fascist front of the
20 Serbs in the then Yugoslavia split into the partisans and the Chetniks.
21 It's only that the situation would be the opposite now, that is to say
22 the descendants of the Chetniks will now threaten the descendants of the
23 partisans, and this position was something that won over the hearts of
24 all the Serbs in Republika Srpska, and that was why in the first
25 elections we won more than 98 per cent of the votes. And Mr. Karadzic,
1 this is a quotation, these were his words:
2 "My children, even the families of those Serbs who are on the
3 communists and reformists lists voted for us."
4 Q. Thank you. Who were the Muslims in eastern Herzegovina more
5 afraid of in terms of the Serbs, the partisans or the Chetniks?
6 A. Well, I --
7 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, we will not allow that question.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Could you just tell us whether this -- the weapons in your
11 case --
12 JUDGE KWON: If you have more questions, let's do it tomorrow.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] One.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Was it the only trick or deception about the weapons, and what
16 was the outcome in court?
17 A. Well, the trial was shifted to Niksic and Podgorica by the army
18 and the police because this was the place of the origin of the act, the
19 misdemeanour, and the trial was completed there. I wasn't attended and
20 no one even invited me.
21 Q. But were you convicted or were you accused or were you indicted?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Thank you. Thank you for coming here to testify, Mr. Kozic.
24 A. Thank you too, Mr. President.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I see the transcript. I move to
1 tender this into evidence. I meant the intercept.
2 JUDGE KWON: We will mark it for identification.
3 THE REGISTRAR: MFI D3377, Your Honours.
4 JUDGE KWON: Ms. McKenna, the reason I asked the previous witness
5 was at the end of his evidence the Defence tendered a leaflet which was
6 marked for identification as D3320 and you raised an issue whether it was
7 identical to Exhibit D2768 and I asked the parties to check it and
8 I haven't heard the result so that was why. Yes?
9 MR. ROBINSON: We did check and it's not identical.
10 JUDGE KWON: It's not identical.
11 MR. ROBINSON: No.
12 JUDGE KWON: So I was correct, yes. Thank you. That concludes
13 your evidence, Mr. Kozic. On behalf of the Chamber I thank you for your
14 coming to The Hague to give it. You are free to go and have a safe
15 journey back home.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you as well,
17 Your Honours.
18 [The witness withdrew]
19 JUDGE KWON: Hearing is adjourned.
20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.02 p.m.,
21 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 11th day of April
22 2013, at 9.00 a.m.