1 Tuesday, 16 April 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
5 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone. Today we'll be sitting
6 pursuant to Rule 15 bis with Judge Morrison being away due to an urgent
7 personal matter.
8 Before we begin today, I have a couple of housekeeping matters to
9 deal with. First is related to witness Slavko Kralj's Rule 92 ter
10 statement. I meant to raise it when his evidence was concluded, but I
11 simply forgot.
12 The Chamber admitted as Exhibit D3245 a transcript of Kralj's
13 testimony in the Popovic case. However, the Chamber notes that D3245
14 appears to be the public redacted version of the transcript. Therefore
15 the Chamber wishes to know if there was any particular reason why the
16 accused only tendered the public redacted version instead of tendering
17 both under seal and public redacted versions of transcript, which I think
18 had been the practice in this case.
19 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. I'm remembering back to this
20 one. I was the one that actually reviewed this, and I believe that I
21 determined that what was under seal wasn't relevant to the testimony. So
22 to make it easier, I didn't do a separate version, but if you'd like one
23 we can file it.
24 JUDGE KWON: I'll leave it to you, Mr. Robinson.
25 For the next matter, could the Chamber move briefly into private
1 session, please.
2 [Private session]
15 [Open session]
16 JUDGE KWON: Unless there's another matter to deal with, we'll
17 bring in the next witness.
18 [The witness entered court]
19 JUDGE KWON: Would the witness make the solemn declaration,
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
22 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Simic. Please be seated and make
24 yourself comfortable.
25 WITNESS: LJUBISAV SIMIC
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Simic, do you hear me in the language you
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do, only I have forgotten my
5 glasses in an office.
6 JUDGE KWON: Very well. They will be brought in shortly.
7 Before you commence your evidence, Mr. Simic, I must draw your
8 attention to a particular Rule that we have here at the International
9 Tribunal. That is Rule 90(E) of Rules of Procedure and Evidence. Under
10 this Rule, you may object to answering any question from Mr. Karadzic,
11 the Prosecution, or even from the Judges if you believe that your answer
12 might incriminate you in a criminal offence. In this context,
13 "incriminate" means saying something that might amount to an admission of
14 guilt for a criminal offence or saying something that might provide
15 evidence that you might have committed a criminal offence. However,
16 should you think that an answer might incriminate you, as a consequence
17 you refuse to answer the question, I must let you know that the Tribunal
18 has the power to compel you to answer the question. But in that
19 situation, the Tribunal would ensure that your testimony compelled in
20 such circumstances would not be used in any case that might be laid
21 against you for any offence save and except the offence of giving false
23 Do you understand what I have just told you, Mr. Simic?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.
25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Simic.
1 Yes, Mr. Karadzic. Please proceed.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Excellencies. Good
3 morning, everyone.
4 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
5 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Simic.
6 A. Good morning.
7 Q. I have to ask you and to keep reminding myself that we should
8 speak slowly, and it is particularly important that we make a pause
9 between questions and answers so that everything can be interpreted.
10 Mr. Simic, have you given a statement to my Defence team?
11 A. Yes, I have.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have 1D7721 in
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Could you please look at the screen in front of you. Do you see
17 that statement of yours in front of you?
18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. Thank you. Have you read and signed this statement?
20 A. Yes, I have.
21 Q. Is this your signature?
22 A. Yes, it is.
23 Q. Could you please wait a bit before you start your answer so that
24 everything can be interpreted.
25 Does this statement accurately reflect what you told my Defence
1 team, or is there something that perhaps needs to be corrected?
2 A. Well, generally speaking, I think that this statement reflects
3 everything that I have to say regarding this case to the best of my
5 Q. Thank you. If I were to put the same questions to you today as
6 the ones put to you before, would your answers essentially be the same?
7 A. Yes. Essentially they would be the same, only I could provide
8 some more details if necessary.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I tender this
11 statement in evidence, and I believe that there is a document also, but I
12 would leave that to Mr. Robinson.
13 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. We're offering one associated
14 exhibit. We ask that it be added to our 65 ter list as the witness
15 hadn't been interviewed at the time that list was filed.
16 JUDGE KWON: Any objection, Mr. Nicholls?
17 MR. NICHOLLS: Good morning, Your Honours. No, no objection,
18 Your Honours.
19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. We'll admit the statement as well as the
20 associated exhibit.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, good morning. The statement will
22 be Exhibit D3398, and 65 ter number 00599 will be Exhibit D3399.
23 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'm now going to read
25 Mr. Simic's statement summary in English.
1 [In English] Ljubisav Simic was born on 8th of August, 1953, in
2 Podravanje, Srebrenica municipality. He is a permanent resident of
3 Bratunac and was a member of the SDS from 1990 to 2002 with various
4 positions including president, deputy in the Assembly, and assemblyman.
5 The formation of the SDA and the HDZ in BH left Serbian people
6 very afraid. The subsequent formation of the SDS relaxed the situation.
7 The formation of three representative ethnic parties led to greater
8 co-operation between the ethnic parties and communities. All forums were
9 public and attended by both Serbs and Muslims.
10 At one SDA forum, a speaker made threats of violence and received
11 an ovation from the Muslims present. In response, Muhamed Filipovic, who
12 attended, criticised the speaker and those who supported it. The local
13 SDS organised similar forums at which one-third of participating persons
14 were Muslims. Some vehicles and passengers were injured when returning
15 from SDS central forums while passing through Muslim areas. Muslim
16 extremists came to Kravica to provoke a bigger incident. Although
17 shooting was involved, bloodshed was avoided thanks to quick intervention
18 by authorities and respectable hosts.
19 After the municipality elections, the SDS and SDA became partners
20 in power through agreement without any major problems until it came to
21 bigger political questions at the BH and Federal Republic of Yugoslavia
22 level. The biggest questions gave birth to the extremist orientation of
23 mind in one part of the population. The Muslims were against the JNA and
24 sent policemen and soldiers to be trained in Croatia. Many of them
25 fought against the Serbs in Croatia.
1 The first major incidents started in Bratunac. Attacks on
2 Serbian representatives of government started in opposition to the JNA
3 unit. The Muslims led by SDA leadership threatened violence at the
4 municipality building. Muslims remained after this event and provoked
5 subsequent incidents and ethnic clashes. Communication between the
6 ethnic groups dropped to a minimum and total distrust existed between
8 Many families started to leave Bratunac, especially the Serbs who
9 felt under threat. Both sides collected massive amount of arms.
10 Nijaz Dubicic and Miroslav Deronjic attempted to organise peaceful
11 resolution to the situation by holding an intellectual forum. Some
12 Muslims attempted to stop the meeting. It was agreed that Ljubisav Simic
13 and Nijaz Dubicic talk to both peoples and defuse tensions on the ground.
14 They were badly received.
15 The SDS and SDA agreed to divide the municipality and police into
16 Serbian and Muslim parts. However, the paramilitary units arrived in
17 Bratunac before the process was finished. No one knew who invited them.
18 Security was worsened in Bratunac and Srebrenica when a unit of
19 volunteers was ambushed and killed by a group of Muslims between
20 Srebrenica and Potocari. A larger unit of volunteers prepared to come to
21 Bratunac against the wishes of Ljubisav Simic and others. Their arrival
22 caused immediate problems because local authorities tried to send them
23 away, which turned the public against the civilian authorities and police
24 as well. Other Serbs fleeing Srebrenica came to Bratunac, while others
25 left Bratunac.
1 No agreements were possible with the Muslims after they killed
2 Goran Zekic, a respected judge, and destroyed villages in Srebrenica. As
3 both sides attempted to leave Bratunac in large numbers, Ljubisav Simic
4 and the Crisis Staff issued the decision that permits were required to
5 leave. The leadership wanted a peaceful resolution of the war. However,
6 Naser Oric, from neighbouring Srebrenica, made it clear that Muslims did
7 not want to negotiate. The Muslim population asked to leave Bratunac for
8 their safety.
9 A unit of volunteers singled out some men and took them to
10 Vuk Karadzic primary school. The volunteers maltreated, beat, and killed
11 some of the Muslims. Miroslav Deronjic tried to engage other people to
12 threaten the volunteers to stop but no one dared oppose them.
13 Ljubisav Simic and the Crisis Staff wanted to evacuate the Muslims but
14 knew they would be attacked when the volunteers found out. Risking their
15 personal safety, the Muslims were transferred to Pale by them. Most
16 volunteers then left after being told by authorities that those who did
17 not want to place themselves under the army's command were to leave
18 Bratunac or face arrest and expulsion.
19 Muslims of Srebrenica and Bratunac joined forces and
20 systematically attacked Serbian villages. Many Serbians were killed.
21 Bratunac became surrounded by Muslim forces on all sides except Serbia's
22 direction. No one from Bratunac intended to kill the Muslims. The
23 paramilitary units caused most of the problems. Nobody could control
24 them and everybody was afraid of them.
25 Although Srebrenica was declared a demilitarised zone in 1993,
1 the Muslims remained armed and continued killing. They prepared a
2 large-scale operation to gain control over the area. In July 1995,
3 Srebrenica was defeated militarily.
4 Ljubisav Simic and Srbislav Davidovic joined the Muslim
5 representatives who had asked for transport from Srebrenica and helped
6 them evacuate people to Kladanj. Some buses with Muslims came to
7 Bratunac shortly after and nobody knew who sent them. Ljubisav Simic
8 went to the SDS office to organise security for the Muslims. An
9 evacuation was organised for them and the buses left Bratunac to
10 Potocari. The Muslim population was never forced to move. They asked
11 themselves to be evacuated.
12 President Karadzic never issued any orders that would be fatal to
13 Muslims and ordered all Muslim civilians, wounded and prisoners be
14 treated humanely. He came personally to Bratunac in an attempt to
15 persuade people to allow food convoys to go to Srebrenica and fully
16 supported rule of law.
17 And that would be summary, and at that moment I don't have
18 questions for Mr. Simic.
19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.
20 Mr. Simic, as you have noted, your evidence in chief in this case
21 has been admitted in writing, that is, through your written statement, in
22 lieu of your oral testimony. Now you'll be cross-examined by the
23 representative of the Office of the Prosecutor.
24 Mr. Nicholls.
25 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honours. Just a possible
1 correction for Mr. Karadzic. I don't know if he misspoke at line 9 --
2 page 9, line 5, where he said:
3 "The evacuation was ordered for them and the buses left Bratunac
4 to Potocari."
5 This is after the prisoners had been brought to Bratunac. I
6 don't know if he meant to say that. I don't believe it's in the summary.
7 JUDGE KWON: I don't remember that, but ...
8 THE ACCUSED: Which line would be, sorry?
9 JUDGE KWON: It should be from Potocari to Tuzla?
10 MR. NICHOLLS: Or Kladanj or somewhere is what I assume he meant
11 to say.
12 JUDGE KWON: Kladanj -- line 5.
13 THE ACCUSED: I think it is -- since it is not evidence, but I
14 think it is to -- in the statement said that services have been ordered
15 to facilitate people to be evacuated.
16 JUDGE KWON: From where to where? That was the question.
17 THE ACCUSED: I think it concerns Kladanj.
18 JUDGE KWON: From Potocari.
19 THE ACCUSED: I suppose so. We may ask witness.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Please continue, Mr. Nicholls.
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Nicholls:
22 Q. This is your sixth time testifying?
23 A. Third time here at the Tribunal. I gave testimony in Sarajevo I
24 think on four occasions.
25 Q. I'm aware of three in the state court. So then that would be
1 your seventh time testifying. Right?
2 A. Possibly. I'm not good at numbers, and if you have better
3 records, I accept that because I'm not keeping any records. I only know
4 that I testified in many cases in Sarajevo and this is the third time
5 that I'm appearing here.
6 Q. And always as a Defence witness; correct?
7 A. I've always been called by the Defence, and I responded to their
9 Q. And you always told the truth when you testified in court before;
11 A. I always spoke about what I knew and what I saw. I never entered
12 into the reign of anything that was said or done by somebody else. What
13 I'm going to speak about today is limited only to what I myself have seen
14 or learned about.
15 Q. Now, please answer my question. You always told the truth in
16 your prior testimony; right?
17 A. I think so.
18 Q. What do you mean you think so? You think you might have not told
19 the truth, you might have lied at some point? Or have you always told
20 the truth to the best of your knowledge and recollection?
21 A. I believe that I always spoke the truth.
22 Q. How many times did you meet with Radovan Karadzic in 1992?
23 A. I don't think many times, no.
24 Q. Well, which ones do you remember? Just briefly. You know, "I
25 met with him on this date. I met with him on that date. I met with him
1 here, met with him there."
2 A. Well, I do remember that on one occasion I visited him in his
3 office in order to accelerate the development of a neighbourhood in
4 Bratunac that was being financed by the Norwegian people's relief or an
5 NGO at any rate.
6 Q. Stop, stop, stop. Just a second. I don't want to cut you off
7 but listen to my question carefully. I didn't ask you why you met with
8 him or what you talked about. I just want to know when and where you met
9 with him. Okay? And if it becomes important to talk about what you were
10 meeting for, what the purpose was, we'll get into that. So when and
11 where did you meet with Karadzic in 1992?
12 A. I remember meeting him for the first time in Zvornik where
13 General Mladic was present as well. It was 1992, and I think that during
14 that same year the president came to Bratunac on account of certain
15 difficulties we were experiencing with the passage of humanitarian aid
16 into Srebrenica.
17 Q. Okay. Let's move on. I want to move right to 1995 and talk
18 about the Hotel Fontana meeting you attended and the early morning
19 meeting at the brigade that you attended before that.
20 First let's talk about the meeting at the Bratunac Brigade at
21 8.00 a.m. on 12 July. You remember going to that meeting; correct?
22 A. I do, yes.
23 Q. General Mladic was there?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Some other army officers?
1 A. No other officers were present there. There were a few soldiers
2 present who I believe to have been his personal security or something
3 like that.
4 Q. And Srbislav Davidovic was there and Aleksandar Tesic was there.
5 A. Aleksandar Tesic and Srbislav Davidovic, the president of the
6 Executive Board, who informed me on the eve of that meeting that he and I
7 had been called to report to Mladic's office in the brigade's HQ in
8 Bratunac, and we went together --
9 Q. Okay, okay --
10 A. Davidovic and I went together, and Aco may have come a bit later.
11 Q. Thank you. You've answered the question who was there.
12 Now I want to read you a bit of your testimony from the Bozic
13 case in the state court from 2008. This is 65 ter 24918 at e-court
14 page 81. Question -- this is about that meeting.
15 "Q. Was any discussion made at that meeting about transport for
16 Muslims from Srebrenica and the need to get as many trucks as possible
17 and buses?
18 Answer from you: "No."
19 "Q. You see I --
20 "A. You mean at the command. No, no, not a single word of
21 mention. Who could mention it, given that we did not know what proposal
22 of the Srebrenica people would be, Srebrenica people who would come to
23 the meeting."
24 You stand by that truthful testimony; correct?
25 A. Absolutely. I can talk about it a million times and I will never
1 add anything to it. It's an easy conversation to remember. It was short
2 and I remember it fully.
3 Q. Yeah. Okay. So:
4 "No, no, not a single word of mention."
5 Let's look at what Aleksandar Tesic, another Karadzic Defence
6 witness, said about this same meeting in this court. This is in his
7 Defence statement, D03118, at paragraphs 34 to 35. In paragraph 34 he
8 says that you were present along with some other army officers and that
9 General Mladic asked him:
10 "What are we going to do with all these people?"
11 In paragraph 35, Aleksandar Tesic's testimony states that
12 General Mladic said:
13 "Buses and trucks must be mobilised immediately to transport
14 about 20.000 residents today or tomorrow."
15 And then he says how as part of the MOD he went to arrange that
16 and then sent out call-up paper for buses. So it's not true what you
17 said in your state court testimony and what you just testified here that
18 there was no mention at the 8.00 a.m. meeting about transporting the
20 A. I stand by my previous evidence now, and I will repeat. I told
21 you that I can repeat this countless times. The conversation unfolded as
22 I depicted it. Now, whether Tesic stayed behind after I and the
23 President of the Executive Board left, because we were there for a brief
24 period of time only, perhaps Tesic heard it and he's convinced of it.
25 But, however, in my presence and in the presence of Srbislav Davidovic,
1 no mention was made of trucks or transport.
2 Let me repeat again. The only sentence that General Mladic said
3 as far as I heard it was:
4 "Srebrenica has fallen. What are we going to do next?"
5 Since Davidovic and I were seated and I was closer to him, I was
6 looking at him and realised that he was expecting me to answer the
7 question of how we were going to protect the civilian population and
8 ensure security in the Srebrenica area in general. I realised that he
9 was expecting to hear my opinion of whether the Bratunac police, the
10 army, or whoever was supposed to be dealing with these issues was capable
11 of seeing this through. I wanted to be resolute in what I was saying,
12 that as for the security of the civilian population now after the defeat,
13 that in view of the events that had been unfolding previously, it was not
14 possible to have any confidence in the local structures and that ways and
15 means of ensuring the security of the civilian population had to be
16 sought at higher levels.
17 Q. Well, that's an interesting answer because in Mr. Tesic's
18 statement, it is directly when General Mladic asks that question which
19 you've just said is when you were there, the discussion about the need to
20 get buses and trucks to remove the population takes place. So it was
21 while you were present according to Mr. Tesic.
22 A. What I've said and what I'm going to say, I can take the lie
23 detector if you want and repeat these things. Did Tesic remain there for
24 a longer period of time after we left, I don't know. The only thing I
25 know that the last sentence that I heard him say after I said what I've
1 just told you, that a meeting would be held at Fontana at 10.00 a.m.,
2 that the meeting would be attended by the representatives of the military
3 and civilian authorities together with representatives of the DutchBat,
4 and that we would hear them out at that meeting, what their view was, and
5 that was all that I heard at that meeting.
6 Q. I don't want to cut you off but that's in your statement and you
7 stand by it. I understand. So you have no problem coming to my office
8 sometime and taking a lie detector test and having us question you about
9 what happened in Srebrenica and what you knew and what you did? Is that
10 a serious offer from you? We might be able to arrange that.
11 A. Absolutely. I've just told you so.
12 Q. Okay.
13 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I have P02996.
14 Q. This is a document the Trial Chamber has seen before. It will
15 come up on your screen, sir. I don't want to spend a lot of time on it.
16 P02996. And again, you said there was no mention at this meeting of
17 buses and trucks because before 10.00 a.m., nobody knew what the Muslim
18 population in Potocari representatives would suggest.
19 This is a dispatch from centre chief Dragomir Vasic. It's a
20 report up his chain. If you look at point 2, it discusses that a meeting
21 was held at Bratunac at the brigade command at 8.00. The same time you
22 said you were at the Bratunac Brigade command that day. And in point 5,
23 it says a meeting will begin or is beginning or something to convey that
24 a meeting will start at 10.00 at the Hotel Fontana at which an agreement
25 will be reached on the evacuation of the civilian population. And then
1 it says a hundred trailer trucks have been provided for transport.
2 So apparently you were the only person at this meeting and of
3 these high officials in Bratunac who had no clue that before the
4 10.00 a.m. Fontana meeting, it was already decided to get trucks and
5 buses to remove the Muslim population.
6 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me.
7 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Yes. Before you answer.
8 Yes, Mr. Robinson.
9 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. I object to that question
10 because it's misleading, because the Prosecution's own witness,
11 Srbislav Davidovic testified at page 24429 of the trial transcript that
12 he also had no knowledge of these -- of these arrangements to evacuate.
13 So for Mr. Nicholls to suggest that Mr. Simic is the only one in the
14 world who didn't have this knowledge, I think is misleading given the
15 evidence that we've heard elicited from their own witness.
16 MR. NICHOLLS: Okay. I'll rephrase that --
17 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. I remember there was a translation
18 issue in particular with respect to the tense. So I was wondering
19 whether we --
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 JUDGE KWON: -- ask the CLSS to take up this issue -- do you
22 remember, Mr. Nicholls?
23 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't know if it has been. I -- taken up by
24 CLSS, but I would agree that they do it. I had a language assistant
25 check the document and the language assistant told me --
1 JUDGE KWON: So for the purpose of today's testimony, could you
2 ask the witness to read out paragraph 2 and paragraph 5 and proceed with
3 your question, Mr. Nicholls.
4 MR. NICHOLLS:
5 Q. Yes. Mr. Simic, could you please read out paragraph 2 of the
6 Vasic report and then paragraph 5.
7 A. I've looked at it and I've realised what your problem is. Your
8 problem is in understanding the term "meeting."
9 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Simic, before you answer the question, could you
10 kindly read out paragraph 2 and paragraph 5.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.
12 "At 800 hours at the HQ of the Bratunac Brigade, a meeting was
13 held with Generals Mladic and Krstic where tasks were assigned to all
15 Under 5:
16 "At 1000 hours, a meeting will begin with representatives of
17 UNPROFOR and International Red Cross as well as the Muslim representative
18 from Srebrenica where an agreement or a deal will be reached on the
19 evacuation of all the civilian population from Potocari to Kladanj so
20 that they would there have more problems" -- well, I don't get this, but
21 I've read it.
22 Now, let me finish off what I've just started. You obviously
23 seem to understand this to mean that we met, all of us met there, whereas
24 I only saw General Krstic later. And I can repeat this at the lie
25 detector. And obviously, Davidovic and I arrived there first and we
1 heard what I told you that we heard, and then Mladic requested that we go
2 home and get ready for the 10.00 meeting. We did so. We were told that
3 we would hear what their representatives think about this and certain
4 conclusions would be reached there.
5 Now, perhaps in that same office there were meetings between
6 Mladic and other people, because he'd finished with us and he told us
7 that we were free to go. Now, who stayed behind or who arrived there
8 later is something I don't know. And I cannot speak for others. I am
9 sure about Tesic. I'm sure that he was there. Did he arrive a bit
10 later, what happened, I don't know.
11 I know that I arrived there together with Davidovic, we had a cup
12 of coffee, and I heard that one sentence that I repeated and I said what
13 I've just told you that I said. I left then. I expected Miroslav to be
14 there, and I expected it to be just an ordinary meeting. However, it
15 wasn't -- it didn't look like at a meeting at all. There was no
16 discussion. There was no talking about anything. There was just this
17 exchange that I told you about.
18 There was Vasic. There was Krstic there. However, at the time
19 that I was there, they weren't there, absolutely. There were only the
20 people that I told you were there. There was Davidovic, Tesic who may
21 have arrived later, I don't know if he stayed behind, and the two of us
22 left and that's absolutely correct.
23 Now, what happened next, how long this meeting took and who was
24 there is something that I don't know. I went straight home.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Line 4, page 18, the witness said,
3 "I saw General Krstic later only in Fontana," and this "only in Fontana"
4 is not in the transcript. And I do believe that his Excellency Mr. Kwon
5 expected the last sentence to be read out as well because that's where
6 the translation problem lies. The last sentence just before paragraph 6.
7 JUDGE KWON: I was told that this English translation is the one
8 that has been revised.
9 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
10 Q. Now, we'll get to the Hotel Fontana meeting, but your -- your
11 testimony and what we heard from Mr. Karadzic in his summary that the
12 Muslim population that was gathered in Potocari left voluntarily; right?
13 A. I was present at the meeting, and I heard the representative of
14 the Muslim civilian population say that they wanted to be urgently
15 evacuated, and should nothing be organised for them, then they would be
16 heading from Bratunac to Tuzla as best they can, which would be complete
17 chaos. Now, if you want me to talk about their proposals at the meeting,
18 I can tell you that they sought evacuation to be arranged for them. They
19 asked for transport.
20 Q. All right. So now let's now do it as a yes or no. Is it your
21 position that the Muslim population left Potocari voluntarily; yes or no?
22 A. As far as I was able to see up there, nobody forced anyone to
23 board a bus. During my presence there --
24 Q. Let me stop you --
25 A. -- I did not see anyone being forced or coerced.
1 Q. Sorry. Tell me if you can't answer this question yes or no. Is
2 your position that the Muslim population left Potocari voluntarily? Is
3 that your position, yes or no?
4 A. As far as I was able to see, I did say that they wanted to leave
5 Srebrenica voluntarily on the transport that was working.
6 Q. So that's a yes.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. That means that the women and children could come back if
9 they wanted to; right? There wouldn't have been any problem with women
10 coming back to Potocari or Srebrenica if they so chose; correct?
11 A. I don't know when. After they'd gone to Kladanj, come back from
12 where? They were in Potocari. The entire population was in Potocari.
13 Q. Say -- say they got on the buses, they came to Bratunac where
14 they stopped and some of those women said, You know what, I've changed my
15 mind, I want to go back to Potocari. That wouldn't have been a problem,
16 right, with you in the leadership in Bratunac or the army? You wouldn't
17 force them not to return to their homes; right?
18 A. Nobody forced them on the buses either.
19 Q. You're not answering -- you're not --
20 A. As for what their disposition or mood was, I don't know.
21 Q. You're not answering my question. My question was: Would there
22 have been any problem, from your experience as being at the Hotel Fontana
23 meeting, as being president of the Municipal Board, would there have been
24 any problem if women in the next few days changed their mind and said
25 they wanted go back to Srebrenica?
1 A. In my mind, it would not have been a problem.
2 Q. All right. And if women had gotten lost in the woods, the VRS
3 would have helped them, do you think? Right? Civilians walking around
4 in the woods who got lost.
5 A. I cannot speak on behalf the army. I was not a soldier.
6 Q. Yeah.
7 A. I am not placed or in a position to speak about these things.
8 MR. NICHOLLS: P03994, please.
9 Q. And this might come as a revelation to you, then, what the army's
10 position was. General Krstic who was at the meeting with you. This is a
11 Drina Corps command report from the 17th of July, 1995. So that's four
12 days after the enclave has been cleansed. It's a regular combat report
13 to the Main Staff of the VRS.
14 I'd like you to look at number 3 in your language. The
15 territorial situation in the zone of responsibility. And if you look
16 down you'll see: In the last three days following the transportation of
17 the civilian population from the former Srebrenica enclave to Kladanj,
18 there have been increasing instances of women who have allegedly got lost
19 coming back towards us from Kladanj and arriving at our forward line of
20 defence. After being warned by our soldiers they try to run away.
21 Yesterday, two women arrived from Kladanj direction at the first VLPBR's
22 point of defence in the Luka sector, and as they refused to surrender and
23 began to run away towards Kladanj, they were fired on and died as a
25 So after this voluntary departure of the Muslim women from
1 Kladanj, those women who got lost in the woods and started walking back
2 towards the enclave were killed by Krstic's troops. Now, does that sound
3 to you like there was any voluntariness in their ability to move or do
4 what they wanted to? The man you were in the meeting with is shooting --
5 his troops are shooting women in the woods who get lost.
6 A. I don't know why I should be called upon to explain or account
7 for things happening in a war zone which is in the jurisdiction of the
8 army. These things can be interpreted in a number of ways. I could
9 interpret them in one way, but I don't want to draw any conclusions, and
10 on the basis of this one instance where there were two straying women who
11 came upon a group of soldiers. They started running away, and they shot
12 them. I could interpret this in one way, but it can be interpreted in a
13 number of ways. And I'm really -- I really regret that this happened. I
14 regret that this case happened and that there was a war.
15 Q. Uh-huh. Well, the reason is that it's relevant to call upon you
16 to ask this is because you were part of the group at the third
17 Hotel Fontana meeting. You were there as the highest representative of
18 Bratunac from the municipality, along with Deronjic, and you were
19 assuring these people that their wishes would be respected and that they
20 would be safe. So I think it is relevant to call upon you when those
21 very same people you made those promises to get lost in the woods and
22 they're shot by the subordinates of another man who was present at the
23 meeting. And as an intelligent man, I think you would be able to look at
24 this document and be able to tell what it says about the voluntariness of
25 these women to move where they wanted to move.
1 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President. I'm going to object to
2 this as being argumentative.
3 MR. NICHOLLS: It's not argumentative.
4 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Yes, Mr. Robinson.
5 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, the witness has answered the
6 question, and then without asking another -- asking for any additional
7 information, Mr. Nicholls has just simply made an argument back to the
8 witness on facts that really can be interpreted, as the witness said, in
9 many ways given that women disobeyed an order to surrender. So there's
10 many ways this can be interpreted. The witness gave his answer and now
11 Mr. Nicholls is simply arguing with the witness because he doesn't like
12 the answer.
13 MR. NICHOLLS: Well, that's not true, Your Honour. If I can just
14 respond quickly and then I'll move on. I had no problem with the answer.
15 The witness asked why he was being asked about this, as though he had no
16 connection to these events, and in cross-examination, asked and answered
17 is not always an appropriate objection when, and my position would be,
18 the witness is trying to evade answering these questions.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE KWON: Since the witness is not in a position to answer why
21 those women ran away at the time, so I would -- I'm going to advise you
22 to move on to another topic.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: I will move on, Your Honours.
24 Q. I'd like to show part of the hotel -- I don't have time to show
25 the whole meeting like I'd like to but I'll show you part of the
1 Hotel Fontana meeting you were present at.
2 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I have P04201. That's the trial video.
3 Part 2 I'm going to play from 5:30 to 7 minutes, 12 seconds. In the
4 book, P04202, this meeting is at English e-court 245 to 250, and Serbian
5 344 to 349.
6 [Video-clip played]
7 MR. NICHOLLS: Okay. We stopped at 7:22, a little bit farther
8 than I said. Could we now jump to 12 minutes, 52 seconds, please,
9 Mr. Reid.
10 [Video-clip played]
11 MR. NICHOLLS: Stop.
12 Q. That's you smoking a cigarette, sitting at Mladic's right hand;
14 A. Correct.
15 MR. NICHOLLS: We can keep playing a minute.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 MR. NICHOLLS:
18 Q. And that's Mr. Davidovic next to you. We stopped --
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. -- at 13:07. Now, you were there at this meeting with
21 Miroslav Deronjic and we also saw Vasic from the police; correct? You
22 need to answer yes --
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. And we also saw General Krstic, among others.
25 A. I haven't seen him yet. Maybe I didn't watch carefully enough,
1 but it doesn't matter. I'm certain that he was there.
2 Q. Yeah. You're not in that screen shot. And across from you is a
3 man we saw from the Muslim people in Potocari, Ibro Nuhanovic. You
4 remember him; right? We just -- yeah.
5 A. I remember.
6 Q. You shook his hand?
7 A. Yes. And later we sat down and had a drink after the meeting.
8 Q. Okay. So you shake his hand, you have a drink. This is the
9 meeting where it's decided that the Muslim population will be allowed to
10 go wherever it wants to go or stay and enjoy their freedom of movement.
11 Can --
12 JUDGE KWON: Can I interrupt you. Just a second. I'm not
13 sure -- could the Chamber move into private session.
14 [Private session]
5 [Open session]
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just remark that this
7 translation isn't right either, because General Mladic said that one
8 representative should be with their people. This part, their people, was
9 not translated.
10 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I would like you to put in writing if
11 you would like to request a revised transcript.
12 Let's continue, Mr. Nicholls.
13 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
14 Q. Now, in your state court testimony in the Bozic case in 2008 -
15 that's 65 ter 2918, e-court page 41 for Mr. Robinson - you testified how
16 you did not see the Muslim representatives in Potocari when you went
17 there. You didn't see this man whose hand you shook and who you had a
18 drink with; right?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. And you know, don't you, that that man whose hand you shook, who
21 you sat across from in the meeting, was separated in Potocari, held
22 overnight in your town Bratunac, and then murdered on 16 July? You know
23 that, don't you, as you sit here today?
24 A. I know that today, but I had no idea at the time. Miroslav
25 brought some kind of document according to which everything finished
1 well, and it was signed, but at the time I didn't really look into that.
2 It wasn't for me to do so. And that man must have been one who was a
3 member of a commission of sorts.
4 Q. Well, you say it wasn't for you to look into it or do so, but
5 you're taking part in this meeting at the Hotel Fontana that is filmed,
6 we say, for pure propaganda purposes. The fact that this man, you shook
7 his hand, you're at the meeting where he's guaranteed his safety, he ends
8 up dead four days later, doesn't that show that that entire meeting was
9 pure theatre for the cameras? When the people who are at the meeting on
10 the other side are murdered. That man at least.
11 A. That's not a question for me. I don't think so. I still don't
12 think that's why the meeting was called. I disagree with your view.
13 Q. Why is it not a question for you when you are president of the
14 Municipal Board. You are sitting there at Mladic's right hand. You are
15 there representing Bratunac and the civilian authorities in Bratunac
16 along with Srbislav Davidovic and Miroslav Deronjic. You are part of the
17 group guaranteeing these people their safety. Then they're brought to
18 your town and held overnight and then they're killed. Why do you think
19 that's not a problem for you as municipal president?
20 A. I cannot guarantee anybody's safety. Only the army or the police
21 could do so. I was not called upon to guarantee anything to anybody but
22 only to hear what would be agreed upon. And General Mladic at that
23 meeting proposed and required us to work as one team, both at Fontana and
24 at Potocari, and that we should register our problems on the ground and
25 request them for help, because the three of us are only three
1 individuals. Our task is to provide food and water for the civilians,
2 because we had learned that the people had slept for two nights in a row
3 in the open and under difficult conditions. It was hot. And we got very
4 specific tasks to help those people and, together with these men, build a
5 team that will register and report about problems.
6 This part that you showed was the informal part of the meeting.
7 It was a free conversation and exchange of views. The man who sat with
8 Mladic, I heard him say -- I heard Mladic say, that is, "There will be no
9 problems. We will escort the buses and see that there are no problems."
10 What could I have done there? What else should I have done?
11 Q. Okay. Well, let's -- let's go on to a topic you talked about,
12 your task providing food, and you talk about that in your statement which
13 you don't need to see at the moment.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to comment on the
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness said that Mladic said -
18 that's line 6, page 28 - that that man would be taken somewhere in his
19 car, and so he would be transported by car and not by bus. Perhaps we
20 can check with the witness and ask him to speak slower.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mladic and this man were sitting a
22 couple of tables away and having a drink. I didn't overhear their
23 conversation, but when that man stood up and Mladic was getting ready to
24 leave, I heard him say, "If everything is all right, the way we agreed,
25 if need be you will be taken somewhere," I don't remember where, "in my
1 car." And probably these people were among the first to leave. That's
2 why Davidovic and I didn't meet anyone up there when we arrived. We
3 expected someone to turn up.
4 MR. NICHOLLS:
5 Q. Okay. You've fixed the transcript and you're not answering any
6 question from me, so I want to move on. I'm going to read back some of
7 your testimony from the Blagojevic case. You tell me if you still stand
8 by it, if it's still true.
9 This is at 65 ter 24914 at e-court pages 34 to 35.
10 You're talking about the conditions you see when you go to
11 Potocari and about Srebrenica. You remember you met some female students
12 there. You said:
13 "And from talking to my female students, as I told you, I heard
14 that they regretted not having been able to leave Srebrenica much
15 earlier. Life there had been very difficult for some time, and many
16 people wished for a way out of the situation. The number of people there
17 that I realised only then was so great had to leave a very difficult
19 Do you stand by that?
20 A. I do.
21 Q. Thank you. And you said this in your Mitrovic state court
22 testimony, which is 65 ter 24916, this is at e-court pages 10 -- or 11,
23 excuse me, that you heard that Srebrenica was overpopulated, that the
24 conditions of life and accommodation were terrible, and "that is why I
25 understood that they were sincere when they said that the majority of the
1 people wanted to leave Srebrenica and that would be the request of most
2 of them."
3 That's also true. You stand by that; correct?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. Yes. And you also testified in your Blagojevic testimony that --
6 you were asked this question, this is 65 ter 24914, e-court page 47:
7 "Were you aware that in March 1995 that President Karadzic, the
8 top member of the SDS, had ordered the army, the VRS, to make life
9 impossible for the inhabitants of Srebrenica?
10 "A. I was not aware of such an order. I never saw or received
11 such an order from anyone.
12 "Q. Were you aware that this order included an order to restrict
13 the flow of goods to that enclave and make the inhabitants of the enclave
14 dependent on the goodwill of the Serbs?
15 "A. I already said that I never saw such an order, nor did I
16 participate, nor could I have participated in such an action."
17 And that's true, isn't it? You never knew about such an order or
18 directive; correct?
19 A. That is my statement, too. I don't know about such orders.
20 Q. Yeah. Let me tell what you said about your knowledge of convoys
21 in the Blagojevic case. This is, again, 24914, e-court page 48.
22 "Q. Were you aware that the humanitarian convoys to the enclave
23 were slowly cut off and restricted at an ever increasing rate?
24 "A. I don't know. I had no information as to who was sending
25 the convoy nor did I know how much was needed up there to distribute it
1 to everyone. So I don't know why you're asking me this."
2 And further down, that's at e-court pages 49 to 50, you say:
3 "The convoys passed through Bratunac and I saw them passing
4 through the town. Now, as to who was sending them, I knew nothing about
5 that. I couldn't increase the speed or volume or decrease it or do
6 anything about it. I had nothing to do with international humanitarian
8 And further down the same page:
9 "I didn't know what were the needs of the Srebrenica enclave. I
10 didn't know how much aid they needed --"
11 JUDGE KWON: Slow down.
12 MR. NICHOLLS:
13 Q. "I didn't know whether what was arriving there was sufficient or
14 insufficient, and I don't know why I should have known this."
15 You stand by that testimony, sir?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Now, you started talking about how you brought food to the
18 enclave. That was your task from the meeting. So that's in paragraph 74
19 of your statement. And that paragraph ends talking about when you went
20 to Potocari.
21 "There I met Davidovic who told me that he had not seen any of
22 those who had been at the meeting. When the first quantities of food
23 arrived, I joined in the distribution."
24 And there's something left out of that part of your statement. I
25 want to read what you said about this food that you took part in
1 distributing in the Blagojevic trial on direct examination from the
2 Defence lawyer. That's at e-court page 15:
3 "The food was a drop in the sea, I must say. I was surprised
4 when I realised what the situation was. I'd never seen anything like it.
5 It was shocking and remains shocking to me to this day."
6 And that's also true, isn't it, that the food you provided was a
7 drop in the sea of what was needed?
8 A. Absolutely, given the needs that I could assess with my bare
9 eyes, without the UNHCR aid which was promised, waiting for this aid, but
10 although I didn't see anyone taking -- making video recordings there nor
11 did I see myself in a recording, but the need was certainly much greater.
12 Q. Okay. Let me --
13 A. We're talking about five trucks --
14 Q. Let me go to that convoy. There's a mistake, we can call it
15 that, in paragraph 85 of your statement, where it says:
16 "A UNHCR convoy got to Potocari in the sunset of 12 July 1992."
17 Now, we can save some time here maybe. Our case is that no UNHCR
18 convoy arrived till 13 July, late, when the population had already been
19 removed. Do you accept that? That's the documentation we have.
20 A. I don't understand the question. Could you please put a specific
21 question very concisely.
22 Q. There is a mistake in your statement at paragraph 85. The UNHCR
23 convoy arrived at around sunset on 13 July, not 12 July.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Kindly slow down, please. Thank you.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise immediately. I said at
1 the outset that I have a problem with dates.
2 On the day of the evacuation, if that's the 12th, the UNHCR
3 convoy arrived in the evening hours. That's correct. If I made a
4 mistake with the date and I said that I had a problem with numbers so I
5 cannot guarantee with any dates, but I'm sure about the event.
6 Q. Let -- let me make this very simple. Are you saying the UNHCR
7 convoy arrived on the same day that you attended the Hotel Fontana
8 meeting? Our case and the documents show that it arrived the next day.
9 A. Yes. On the same day. It can't have arrived on the following
10 day. It arrived on the same day in the evening hours. If you will, I'll
11 gladly answer any questions of yours connected to a lie detector. I made
12 a phone call as soon as I was able to see what I would get from
13 Ljubovija --
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. -- would not even cover the basic needs.
16 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. I'm a bit confused about the date.
17 Are we talking about 1992 or 1995?
18 MR. NICHOLLS: 1995, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Simic, do you have your statement with you?
20 Paragraph 85 refers to 1992.
21 MR. NICHOLLS: I think my friends will stipulate that that's an
22 error and it's meant to say "1995," because this is -- UNHCR is going to
23 Potocari at the time that the buses are leaving.
24 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic. We'll confirm with -- no, no --
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, it's a mistake.
1 JUDGE KWON: We shall confirm with the witness. Do you have your
2 statement with you now, Mr. Simic? It's paragraph 85.
3 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't believe he has it in hard copy,
4 Your Honour.
5 JUDGE KWON: It's on the monitor.
6 MR. NICHOLLS: Oh, thank you.
7 JUDGE KWON: Could you read out --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says here the 12th of July, but
9 no matter what it says, I have a memory based on events. After the
10 meeting, in the evening hours, when I was tasked to --
11 MR. NICHOLLS:
12 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Simic --
13 A. -- to provide humanitarian aid --
14 Q. Sorry, Mr. Simic, this [overlapping speakers] --
15 JUDGE KWON: So my question is, Mr. Simic, for you, whether it
16 should be 1995, the year itself.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 1995, yes. This is a mistake.
18 I've only noticed now. Yes, it is 1995.
19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
20 Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
21 MR. NICHOLLS: Okay. Could I have, very quickly, P04160.
22 Q. Now, sir, this is a sitrep from the enclave. It's not in your
23 language so I'll read it to you. And I'll put our case to you which is
24 that all the evidence in our case, from our witnesses, is that no convoy
25 arrived on the 12th but that a convoy arrived on the 13th, the second day
1 of the evacuation, the day after the Hotel Fontana meeting. And this is
2 what this sitrep report says. It's dated 13 July 1995, at 1900 hours,
3 approximately, a little after.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the document?
5 MR. NICHOLLS: It should come up.
6 JUDGE KWON: What is the exhibit number again?
7 MR. NICHOLLS: 04160. That's it.
8 Q. Now number 2 says the - the - UNHCR convoy came in as the last
9 refugees went out. What an expert timing.
10 So our contemporaneous reports show that the convoy arrived too
11 late on the night of the 13th, the second day of the evacuation. Do you
12 accept you made a mistake in your statement?
13 A. You know something? You can even quote extraterrestrials. I am
14 sure that it was -- that this is not correct. The convoy arrived on the
15 12th in the evening hours. Any other stories are unacceptable to me.
16 Q. Yeah, and your testimony is that when it arrived DutchBat said,
17 We've got so much food, we don't need this. Take it to Bratunac. The
18 UNHCR food convoy.
19 A. When the convoy arrived in the evening -- you want me to paint a
20 bigger picture so it may be more easier for you to understand. I
21 intervened in time. It may have been around 11.00 or 12.00, because I
22 didn't know what I would be able to raise. When I saw that it was
23 insufficient, I remembered to call them too, and not just them but also a
24 team of ours which had been organised during the war for fast
25 interventions. I wanted to involve everybody into the transportation of
1 aid for the people at Potocari. When they arrived in the early evening
2 hours --
3 Q. Okay. Sorry, sorry --
4 A. -- the evacuation of that part of the population --
5 Q. Okay. You've answered the question. You stand by it was the
6 12th at night. Okay, now I want to move on a bit --
7 A. Absolutely.
8 Q. Yeah. You made that clear.
9 I want to move on now to your movements, your actions over the
10 nights 12th and 13th, the nights everybody describes as chaos in
11 Bratunac, at least the 13th. Now, in your testimony in the Mitrovic
12 case, in 2007, in the state court - that's 65 ter 24916 at e-court
13 page 20 - you talk about how the day after the Hotel Fontana meeting, you
14 arrived at work a bit late and then you went and you saw Davidovic. And
15 you testified about how it was difficult because it had been necessary to
16 mobilise people in the night to -- to provide security to the buses.
17 Right? That's a fair summary?
18 A. I'll accept it for the time being. Let's see how it continues.
19 Q. And one thing you said, and this is in your testimony, that when
20 you met Srbislav Davidovic, your testimony states:
21 "The president of the Executive Committee was justifiably scared.
22 He complained and so was I, so we asked to see someone to go out and look
23 for an officer and ask what they were doing to stop it urgently. That is
24 to continue the evacuation as planned rather than having them standing up
25 in the stadium since it was torture. And it posed a permanent danger,
1 and we were afraid of possible incidents."
2 Do you remember saying that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And it's true?
5 A. I remember it still. I remember how I felt at the time, and I
6 stand by it. Yes, it was exactly that way.
7 Q. And you also said in that testimony that it was very hot at that
8 time, even in the morning.
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I have 65 ter 24618, please.
11 Q. While this is coming up, I'll say this is a transcript of a PBS
12 documentary with interviews from January 25, 1996, called "Bosnia's
13 Graves." It's in English, sir.
14 If we could go to page 2.
15 I don't remember if you remember being interviewed by these
17 If we can go to page 2, please.
18 And there's a picture of you at the top from the interview.
19 Now, if we go back to page 1.
20 The interviewer says that you said during the interview that no
21 one from Srebrenica was brought to Bratunac. And later on you said:
22 "What can I say? If there was really something going on there
23 and there really were some soldiers dying and were buried there, what can
24 I say. If such things really existed, then it shall be investigated by
25 the military to find out how these things happened."
1 So when you were interviewed six months, approximately, after
2 these events, you told the press that no Muslims were brought to
4 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, where do we see that?
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
6 MR. NICHOLLS: It's on the first page, "the town of Bratunac is
7 the centre of his administration." It's just talking with Mr. Simic.
8 And it says, "the mayor said no one from Srebrenica was brought here,"
9 and they refer to Mr. Simic as the mayor in this interview.
10 Q. That was not correct, was it, when you told the international
11 press that no one was brought from Srebrenica to your town?
12 A. I have this text in English, and I believe that you are relating
13 the contents of it, and I can only believe you. However, it is very
14 difficult out of context to discuss what the question was and what the
15 answer was. I learned about this the next morning in Milici from the
16 president of the Executive Committee, and after I had talked to an
17 officer whom I had met in town, and after that I went on my way.
18 As for the questions put to me, I cannot give you any more
19 details because it's in a language that I don't understand, and I cannot
20 see what the context is. And if I said something, it might have been
21 construed as wrong or imprecise. I don't remember this, and when I was
22 interviewed, I can say that at the time I was always open to talking to
23 journalists, but as it is, all I can see is my photo there and the rest I
24 cannot understand. I don't remember this particular journalist and this
25 particular interview.
1 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
3 MR. ROBINSON: I don't think this is fair to the witness to put
4 this that way to him, and if you look at that paragraph, when it says,
5 "the mayor said no one from Srebrenica was brought here," look at what
6 was said right before:
7 "We filmed the locked changing rooms under the stand. The walls
8 are riddled with bullet holes."
9 So the "here" that the mayor said that "no, no one from
10 Srebrenica was brought here" may just as well refer or probably even does
11 refer to the rooms underneath the stadium as opposed to whether they were
12 brought to the town of Bratunac. So I think it would be better, if he
13 wants an answer to this question, to have read out to the witness what
14 the reporter is saying as opposed to paraphrasing it in a way that I
15 don't think is the only reasonable way that that could be read.
16 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry, is Mr. Robinson's point that the stadium is
17 not in the town of Bratunac?
18 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, my point is that the witness never
19 denied that the prisoners were brought to Bratunac, that it appears that
20 he may have simply denied that they were brought to this room underneath
21 the stadium that was riddled with bullet holes.
22 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. For me, I still have a problem
23 finding the passage. Where is it again?
24 MR. ROBINSON: It's on the very bottom of page 1 where you see
25 the word "Jane Bennett Powell," and it has a picture of a building and a
1 field, and just to the right of that picture is the passage.
2 MR. NICHOLLS: It's the same thing, I would say, Your Honour,
3 whether they were brought to the town or to the stadium because the
4 witness testified in the state court that they were brought to the
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes. What -- I'm looking at the answer given by
7 the ... I'll leave it to you to continue or to explore further.
8 MR. NICHOLLS: Shall we take a break, Your Honour?
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll have a break for half an hour and resume
10 at five past 11.00.
11 --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.
12 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue, Mr. Nicholls.
14 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, I would tender this interview.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll receive it.
16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6292, Your Honours.
17 MR. NICHOLLS:
18 Q. Sir, 13 July 1995, because you're not good at dates, that's the
19 day after the Hotel Fontana meeting you attended. Let me just read you
20 some more of your testimony in the state court. This is from the Bozic
21 case, 65 ter 24918, e-court page 113. You were asked a question by
22 Judge Gluhajic:
23 "Does this mean that on 13 July you did not see any buses in
25 So the day after Hotel Fontana meeting. Your answer:
1 "No. On 13th of July, no. No, no, on 13 July."
2 And that's -- do you stand by that testimony, you didn't see any
3 buses in Bratunac on the day after the Hotel Fontana meeting?
4 A. Yes. On the morning of that day I saw what I testified about,
5 and I was informed by Srbislav Davidovic that there was a convoy. I
6 heard of it, but I didn't go over there to see it and I didn't see it
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. So I believed that this man had no reason to make that up, so I
10 understood that to be a fact.
11 Q. Okay. You were asked, again that same testimony, e-court
12 page 115:
13 "You did not see any buses throughout the night of 13, 14,
15 And your answer was:
16 "No. On the 13th and 14th I was not -- I was not in the town
17 because this was not during my working hours, and at that time I was at
18 my home.
19 "Q. Let's just cover that. What time did you go home on the
21 Your answer was:
22 "I cannot tell you with certainty. It was my practice that I
23 would leave office if I did not have additional duties at around 1500."
24 Is that testimony true?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Okay. So let me just get the picture clear. 13 July, in
2 Bratunac, you're president of the Municipal Assembly. At about
3 1500 hours, you go home and don't see anything on the night of the 13th
4 into the 14th; right?
5 A. Between the 13th and the 14th, well, I will have to rely on my
6 memory and you will decide whether it coincides with your question. The
7 evacuation took place on the 12th. I came to the municipality a little
8 bit earlier because the president of the Executive Committee told me that
9 during the previous night --
10 Q. Okay. Stop, stop --
11 A. -- a convoy with men had arrived --
12 Q. Stop. I don't have much time. I don't want to interrupt you.
13 You're now talking about the morning of the 13th, when you came to work,
15 A. The morning of the 13th.
16 Q. Okay, stop. I'm not asking you about the morning of the 13th.
17 I'm asking you about the evening of the 13th, night into the next day the
18 14th. Do you stand by your testimony that during that time you're at
19 home, you didn't see any buses?
20 A. I stand by it. I do. Yes.
21 Q. Now, on the night of the 13th, the evidence in this case,
22 including from many witnesses on both sides, is that there were buses all
23 over Bratunac holding prisoners and that there were prisoners held in the
24 Vuk Karadzic school and the hangar behind the school and that there were
25 not enough people to guard these prisoners. Do you accept that?
1 A. If that is what they saw, that must have been the case. I didn't
2 have an opportunity to witness that or to see anything of that sort.
3 Q. Okay. Now just let me be clear. You keep talking about the
4 evacuation on the 12th. Is it your testimony that the evacuation of the
5 people in Potocari was completed on the same day as the Hotel Fontana
6 meeting that you attended?
7 A. No. Some of the population who were on the DutchBat battalion
8 compound were evacuated the next day.
9 Q. Now, you've testified in the state court that you had access to a
10 uniform and a gun for emergencies. That's at 65 ter 24918 at P64 -- at
11 page 64 and at page 11.
12 Why was it left to old men, young people, to guard all the
13 prisoners? Why were you at home in bed when you're in your 40s and had a
14 uniform and a gun? Why didn't you help guard the prisoners? Are you
15 sure you didn't?
16 A. I'm absolutely sure that I didn't do that. Nobody asked me to do
17 it. The fact that we had uniforms and rifles, that meant that that was
18 for emergency situations when an alert signal would be sounded, and that
19 meant that we should join the nearest unit. That was the purpose of it.
20 Now, in this particular situation, I didn't carry a rifle. There
21 was no need for that. Nobody requested me to do that, and probably
22 that's the reason why they never invited me to join. Obviously there
23 were enough people in Bratunac who were able bodied and people who were
24 in the police, and they guarded them. And this convoy which was returned
25 to Bratunac, I protested with one of the officers that I encountered on
1 my way --
2 Q. Okay. I'm not talking about the officer. We'll talk about that
3 later. Thank you.
4 Now, this is from your Bozic testimony, January 2008, in the
5 state court. 65 ter 24918, P -- page 118.
6 "Q. Did you ever hear that Bosniak prisoners were killed at
7 Vuk Karadzic school regardless of who did it?"
8 This is in 2008. Your answer was:
9 "To tell you the truth, no. Why I don't know, I just didn't.
10 "Q. The most notorious scandal of your town, a piece of modern
11 history including that huge killings as part of its facts, are you
12 seriously saying that you've never been told about it?"
13 Your answer was:
14 "A. No one ever said a single word to me on this incident."
15 So is your honest, truthful testimony that, as of 2008, nobody
16 had told you about the Vuk Karadzic school murders of 1995?
17 A. That is correct. I can sincerely tell you --
18 Q. Okay. You answered. Same -- same case, page 119: It was so
19 secret in the days that followed the killings you never heard a rumour
20 about them. Is that the position? And your answer was:
21 "In the days following we had other tasks and duties pertaining
22 to the organisation of the government in Srebrenica, to protect the town
23 from looting and other affairs of that sort. Therefore, I was not in a
24 position to walk around to observe, to gather any information because I
25 had to attend other tasks."
1 Truthful testimony?
2 A. It is truthful, and I can repeat it in the same manner. Perhaps
3 the reason why I wasn't more vigilant was because I had never expected
4 such things to happen. There was no indication that I observed to that
5 effect. That is why I didn't pay enough attention. Perhaps my mistake
6 was because I believed that everything would go as agreed at the meeting
7 and that no incidents would take place.
8 Q. Uh-huh. Well, in this trial, Branimir Tesic testified that he
9 learned about these killings when the school was vacated and civilian
10 protection entered. That's on 12 March 2013. Aleksandar Tesic testified
11 that over the next days he learnt from Ljupko Ilic of the bodies at the
12 Vuk Karadzic school. That was on 12 March 2013, same day.
13 Milenko Katanic, on cross-examination from Mr. Karadzic, testified that
14 he learned about these killings at the Vuk Karadzic school the day after,
15 on 14 July.
16 So you, the president of the municipality, do not know anything
17 about what's going on in your municipality on the crucial days of 13,
18 14 July; right?
19 A. Right.
20 Q. Uh-huh. I want to talk about Kravica warehouse executions. Now,
21 you've claimed, and I don't think the Defence will dispute me on this,
22 your claim is that you heard about the Kravica executions on the next day
23 after they had occurred. Correct?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. Yeah. And with -- you learned that from Jovan Nikolic; right?
1 A. Right.
2 Q. Now, this is from your -- I'll move ahead a bit. Your -- and at
3 that time you knew that Deronjic was civilian commissioner in charge
4 Srebrenica civilians, Muslim civilians; correct?
5 A. I've heard of that.
6 Q. Well, you knew it. Are you seriously telling me that you did not
7 know that Miroslav Deronjic was appointed --
8 A. Why? Why are you interpreting it in such a way? If I say that I
9 had heard that he had been appoint [indiscernible] Karadzic in charge of
10 civilian affairs, that was correct, but I didn't know what his specific
11 duties were and I never inquired. It was beyond my interest. That was
12 his duty and he knew what he was supposed to do.
13 Q. Okay. But I can read you back your testimony if you want, but
14 the civilians he was to take care of were Muslims; correct?
15 A. That's what I heard.
16 Q. All right. This is -- I'm going to quote you now from your
17 testimony in the Mitrovic case in the state court. That's --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the counsel please
19 slow down when reading. Thank you very much.
20 MR. NICHOLLS: I apologise. Thank you.
21 Q. This is from your Mitrovic testimony, 65 ter 24916, in e-court at
22 pages 21 to 22, and 22 to 23.
23 Question from Defence counsel and this is talking about when you
24 first discuss hearing about the Kravica warehouse and executions from
25 Jovan Nikolic.
1 "Q. Earlier you mentioned Mr. Deronjic, now deceased. Did you
2 know anything about -- did he know anything about it? Did you have any
3 meetings with him or --
4 "Witness Simic: No, I did not manage to see him that day at all.
5 He had his tasks and I heard that he had received them from
6 Radovan Karadzic. He was appointed as -- I don't know the exact title,
7 but he was tasked with the security of civilians, so to say, if I may
8 paraphrase, as I cannot say what exactly his duty and his sphere of work
9 were. Since I was busy with what I was doing, I did not manage to meet
10 with him. He probably heard about it later and probably forwarded the
12 "Question from Defence counsel Krunic: And did you mention the
13 incident when you were together with Deronjic and you and what did he --
14 "Witness Simic: Yes. I found out that he had informed Radovan
15 about what had happened."
16 That was truthful testimony, too, wasn't it?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you. And later on in the Bozic trial, 65 ter 24918,
19 e-court pages 69 to 70, you were asked --
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page in the
21 Serbian because what Mr. Nicholls quoted previously, we couldn't see this
22 on the current page.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: It should be the Serbian pages 22. Sorry, Serbian
24 page 30. No -- yes, sorry, first time was right. Serbian page 22 or 23.
25 I'll leave that to Mr. Karadzic's redirect.
1 Q. I want to move quickly now --
2 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Next page for the English. Give me
3 a minute so that I can see the page.
4 What page was it, Mr. Nicholls? English page.
5 MR. NICHOLLS: English page --
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
7 MR. NICHOLLS: E-court page 22. It's right in the middle of the
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We can move on.
10 MR. NICHOLLS:
11 Q. Now, let me go quickly to 1992, and if we have time we'll come
12 back to 1995 for some other questions I wanted to ask you.
13 You talk in your statement, and it was in your summary about the
14 transfer of Muslim men in 1992 from the stadium to Pale. That's what I'm
15 going to ask you about, okay?
16 MR. NICHOLLS: If I could have 65 ter 24913.
17 Q. While it's coming up, sir, this is a statement you gave on
18 22nd August 2003 to the RS MUP, and you were informed that if you gave
19 false testimony in this statement that you could be prosecuted.
20 MR. NICHOLLS: And I want to go to page 5 of the English and
21 page 4 of the Serbian.
22 Q. Now, the part I'm interested in is this, talking about the
23 prisoners who are being tortured and killed in the stadium by the
24 paramilitaries according to you:
25 "The president of the Crisis Staff informed the civilian and
1 military authorities in Pale about the events and asked for a solution to
2 the problems that had been created. I don't know at whose approval -- in
3 any event, it was obtained from Pale. We were given the assignment of
4 transferring the captured men to Pale where the men were supposed to be
6 And then you say that this was carried out.
7 That's true, too, isn't it, what you say in your sworn statement
8 to the RS MUP?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Then according to your statement, in paragraph 65, after this
11 takes place, and it was in your summary, the paramilitaries were told by
12 the police to leave and most of them did so; right?
13 A. I think that they were even taken into custody by the police and
14 that they were told that unless they left immediately that they would be
16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't hear the last part of
17 the answer.
18 MR. NICHOLLS:
19 Q. If you could finish your answer, please. The interpreters missed
20 a little bit of it. After arrested. You said the police told them they
21 would be arrested, the paramilitaries.
22 A. If they do not place themselves under the command of the local
23 army or the Territorial Defence. I don't know how it was called at the
24 time. And if they continued to do as they pleased, that would not be
25 tolerated any longer. They would have to be arrested and deported.
1 Q. Okay. So let me just get the sequence of events right. There
2 were Muslims held in the stadium. Through Pale, through contact with the
3 authorities of Pale it's decided to bring these Muslims to Pale and, from
4 there, they're removed out of the RS. After that, suddenly the
5 paramilitaries are successfully removed. Right?
6 A. One group, the most extreme one and the worst one in Bratunac was
7 removed, but the rest remained longer. The police tried in vain to
8 cleanse Bratunac of those units and we were not successful in that, and
9 as a result, we suffered consequences, both individually and generally,
10 and all we encountered in Bratunac due to that were problems, nothing
12 Q. And the interesting thing - I'll ask you about this - is that
13 when Pale learned about this problem, they said, "Bring them here." They
14 didn't say, "We'll send down help." They didn't say make sure those
15 people were allowed to return to their homes. They didn't say, "We'll
16 send units, MUP units, to help eject the paramilitaries." They said,
17 "Bring them here," and then Pale ships them out of the RS territory;
18 right? That's Pale's solution. Not to bring the Muslims home, to kick
19 them out.
20 A. I'll try to clarify this to you a bit, because I think that you
21 are a little bit on the wrong course.
22 These people had no place to go. Their families had gone to
23 Tuzla. We didn't dare release them, because those others were against
24 this, and unfortunately they enjoyed support of the part of the
25 population. Therefore, we could not avoid any conflict with them, and we
1 had no idea what the conflict would be. For that reason we charged
2 Miroslav because this was beyond our local capacities and capabilities to
3 seek assistance and help in any way whatsoever in order to solve this
4 problem. We thought that it would be better for those people to be
5 driven out of Bratunac quite safely and to be transferred to a territory
6 where they would no longer suffer these problems.
7 Now, how these conversations happened and what was discussed, I
8 had never an opportunity to speak with Deronjic about this, but he did
9 have some contacts at Pale, because I suppose he had to go to the highest
10 level in order to seek solution. After that, we received permission for
11 these people to be evacuated from the hall. We did that in the morning
12 hours, because virtually overnight we prepared this plan, and we made
13 sure that everybody was fully safe and secure, because that was really a
14 terrible problem for everybody in Bratunac.
15 Now, what happened between Miroslav and anyone at the top
16 echelon, who he talked to and what he talked about, I don't know. I
17 wasn't interested. After all, all I was interested was to have this
18 problem solved because, as far as I'm concerned, I was only a member of
19 the Crisis Staff and I was advocating a speedy release. And I said
20 whatever solution is decided upon, they would have to leave because, in
21 the first place, they hadn't come there of their own volition, and
22 everything that was going on did not have any support from our side.
23 Q. Okay. Now, when you were in your proofing session or when you
24 met with Defence when you came here to The Hague --
25 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
1 JUDGE KWON: Microphone.
2 MR. NICHOLLS:
3 Q. I apologise. Now, when you were in your proofing session when
4 you came to The Hague and met with the Defence, whoever you met with, and
5 met with Mr. Karadzic, did you discuss your meeting with Mr. Karadzic in
6 Zvornik that took place in June 1992? Because it's not in your
8 A. I didn't. I have a clear recollection of this, and I have no
9 difficulty in giving you all the details of it if you want me to.
10 Q. What I'm asking you about - pay attention to my question - is
11 whether you discussed this with the Defence and your answer was no. So
12 nobody on the Defence side said, "Let's go through this meeting on --
13 that you had with me in Zvornik, with General Mladic, in June 1992."
14 They just left that out.
15 A. I don't know what they were supposed to be asking me about. I
16 was at their disposal to speak about everything. I did say that we had
17 that meeting and I did observe that it was noted down. It was shown to
18 me in Mladic's report, a diary, whatever it was, that there was this part
19 of mine, and as you read it, you can interpret it in different ways. And
20 I'm prepared to say what is accurate and what I said.
21 Q. Okay. We'll go to that now. So the answer is that the Defence
22 did go through that meeting with you and show you that meeting, the notes
23 in Mladic's notebook; correct?
24 A. In Mladic's notebook, yes, diary.
25 Q. And then it's nowhere in your statement, is it, that meeting or
1 reference to it?
2 A. I had -- I have never spoken about this meeting so far,
3 officially. I did say that I remember it and that I'm prepared to
4 explain it in detail.
5 Q. All right. Well, we'll do that quickly.
6 MR. NICHOLLS: P01478, please. English 246, Serbian 245.
7 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President. I know you keep good
8 track of the time and probably you considered this, but it seems to me
9 that the Prosecution has exhausted its time that you've allotted for
10 cross-examination, and before you -- first of all, I think it's
11 appropriate that, when they do so, they be the ones to ask you for
12 additional time rather than to assume that the time will continue. So
13 that's number one.
14 Number two, while we don't normally oppose [indiscernible], we
15 leave it to you whether the Prosecution should have extra time. I just
16 want to point out that this is such a pattern when Mr. Nicholls examines
17 witnesses who have 80 per cent of information about 1992 events in
18 Bratunac in their statements and he spends 90 per cent of his
19 cross-examination time on 1995 events in Srebrenica, only to get at the
20 end to the material that's in the witness's statement or that deals with
21 1992. And we think that that's a pattern that ought to be addressed by
22 limiting the amount of cross-examination time so that he, like every
23 other member of the Prosecution team, fits his cross-examination into the
24 allotted time. Thank you.
25 MR. NICHOLLS: May I respond --
1 JUDGE KWON: It is for the Prosecution to decide how to
2 cross-examine a witness.
3 Could the court deputy approach the bench.
4 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
5 JUDGE KWON: But I take it you're coming to a close.
6 MR. NICHOLLS: I am coming to a close, Your Honour, but with your
7 leave, I would like to respond to what Mr. Robinson has said and I think
8 that's fair.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
10 MR. NICHOLLS: First of all, it's absolutely none of his business
11 how I conduct my cross-examination as long as my questions are not
12 objectionable. Second of all, part of the pattern with the Bratunac
13 witnesses he's referring to is for the Defence to file highly misleading,
14 incomplete statements, as in with Jovan Nikolic, where they leave out
15 that he attended -- that he learned about -- that he was at the Kravica
16 warehouse on the 13th July. They just take that out of the statement and
17 hope nobody's going to talk about it. These things take longer.
18 I agree that I should request more time when I come to the end
19 and I should try to stay within my limits. Second, by concentrating on
20 some of these Srebrenica events, it goes directly to the credibility of
21 the witness which covers his testimony and statement as a whole, and huge
22 significant elements of what happens in Srebrenica are, as part of a
23 pattern, left out of the Defence statements which is why they need to be
24 dealt with longer on cross-examination.
25 And we do -- I do not accept that Mr. Robinson is in a position
1 to tutor me about how to cross-examine witnesses and I'll leave it at
2 that. And I ask to have a little bit more time to conclude.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE KWON: Please conclude in five minutes.
5 MR. NICHOLLS:
6 Q. Now, on the page we see in front of us, 246, in the English we
7 see who was present, including you.
8 MR. NICHOLLS: I'd like to go now to page 249 in English, 248 in
9 the B/C/S.
10 Number 4, Branko Grujic from the interim government in Zvornik
12 "We have 32.000 Serbs. We have successfully implemented
13 the president's decision to settle Divic and Kozluk with our
15 And I'm going to ask a question before I get an objection.
16 Can we go to page 252 of the English and 251 of the B/C/S.
17 Sorry, 253 of the English, 252 of the B/C/S.
18 And this is Marko Pavlovic of the Zvornik command TO speaking,
19 and he says:
20 "We were most active in evicting the Muslims."
21 And on the next page:
22 "We had brought peace to Sepak, Divic, and Kozluk. Some of them
23 wanted to move out while we demanded it. We had to evict some of the
24 people also for the sake of our heroes who fled from Kovacevici."
25 Q. Now to you. Page 258 of the English. 257 of the Serbian. You
1 are speaking and General Mladic writes:
2 "Until 1968 it, Bratunac, had a Serbian majority population.
3 Since then they've moved to Serbia. So according to the last census it
4 was 64/36 in favour of the Muslims. In Bratunac municipality we now have
5 two Muslims. We used to have paramilitary formations, today we have a
6 clear situation ..."
7 Now, I'm putting it to you, and you can answer this, that this is
8 you reporting positively that Bratunac has been cleansed. The earlier
9 statements by Grujic and Pavlovic, they are reporting the same thing more
10 expressly, that they evicted the Muslims from Divic and Kozluk. You are
11 then later reporting that you've done the same thing in Bratunac. That
12 is the clear reading of this.
13 You may now comment on my case to you.
14 JUDGE KWON: Before you answer, Mr. Simic.
15 Mr. Karadzic?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This cannot wait the redirect. It
17 would be proper for the witness to hear in the Serbian what is being read
18 out, because the way Mr. Nicholls is presenting it is actually
19 inaccurate, for instance, that Marko Pavlovic was talking about what it
20 was that people wanted.
21 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. I think the witness had the
22 opportunity to read the relevant part of the notebook. Let's continue.
23 Now can you answer the question, Mr. Simic?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Firstly, I don't know if this
25 is only a portion of the notes taken at that meeting or the entire notes,
1 but I do recall the meeting clearly. I will tell you how it was that I
2 ended up there.
3 Miroslav Deronjic was supposed to attend the meeting but he had
4 to visit Kravica because there were some problems up there. He asked me
5 to attend in his stead. He told me that there was going to be a meeting
6 in Zvornik attended by somebody from the top and that I should bring
7 along some information for the meeting. I didn't know what the nature of
8 the meeting was, nor what sort of information I was supposed to bring
9 along. I suppose it had to do with the strength of our army, how many
10 there were, and what was going on.
11 So I took it upon myself as personal task, I didn't have time to
12 consult with him, to pay special attention to paramilitary units. And I
13 was talking about the ratio of 64:32 -- 36, and I said that there were
14 only -- the only Muslims that I was able to see as I was passing along
15 the street are the two Muslim children. So what I did was I highlighted
16 the fact that the miseries that we were experiencing in Bratunac were
17 caused by the paramilitaries.
18 In response to that, Karadzic cast a glance at Mladic who then
19 held a small lecture on the issue of paramilitaries. I can give you a
20 brief summary of that lecture that was intended for everyone. He said
21 that for the most part these were people coming to those locations where
22 there was copper, silver or gold. In other words, they would go there
23 solely for plunder, for personal gain, and that they can only do damage
24 to us. And my response to that was that we have satisfied ourselves of
25 that, that it's quite clear to us, but that we simply don't have the
1 strength to get rid of these people. We did that -- we tried that on a
2 couple of occasions, we failed, and he promised --
3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Simic, the question was whether you reported
4 this positively that Bratunac has been cleansed.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. This -- I put this ironically.
6 I wanted to highlight the influence that the paramilitaries were wielding
7 in Bratunac, and I wanted something to be done on this score. In
8 response to that, Mladic, who must have caught my drift, promised to
9 dispatch from Sekovici a unit of the military police. He said that there
10 was a squad that was being trained for that purpose. I told him that the
11 local military police and the local civilian police were unable to do
12 anything. They would chase away a group of them. Our municipality is
13 60 kilometres away from the Drina, and then as soon as one group was
14 chased away another would appear, across the river, on various boats or
15 whatever, and this was a dead heat between us. We were trying to chase
16 them away, and we were faced with the risk of death in the face of these
17 individuals; whereas, on the other hand, the ordinary people grew
18 mistrustful of us as we were unable to get rid of them. And then Mladic
19 did act upon his promise --
20 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Simic, I think you answered the question.
21 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, may I ask one more brief question?
22 The witness has been giving long answers and I've been really trying not
23 to cut him off.
24 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Please proceed.
25 MR. NICHOLLS:
1 Q. In your testimony in the Popovic case here, you were
2 cross-examined by the attorney for Colonel Beara about whether you could
3 see the officer who you were later told was Colonel Beara when you met
4 him in Bratunac on 12 July 1995, and this was your answer:
5 "Q. Describe the officer that you claim you saw, sir.
6 "A. I could easily describe him had I seen him clearly, but as
7 we say, everything had -- all the blood had gone to my eyes."
8 And then you say:
9 "So at the time all I could see was the outline of the man and I
10 saw that he was an officer."
11 And you said:
12 "I've already told you about my emotional state at the time and I
13 have to admit I did not have any visual capabilities at all."
14 You stand by that truthful testimony that you couldn't see the
15 officer standing in front of you because the blood rushed to your eyes
16 and you lost all your visual capabilities out of anger.
17 A. Yes. It's not just the matter of being able to see. I was so
18 irritated that I wasn't able to fully grasp what he was saying. I was
19 asking that as a matter of urgency the people be evacuated from Bratunac
20 before problems arise, and I was looking for somebody to evacuate these
21 people from the stadium since with the passage of time their position
22 grew ever more difficult.
23 Q. So the answer's yes, you had no visual capabilities at all. You
24 told the truth when you --
25 A. I didn't know Beara as an officer. I don't know if it was him or
1 not, and I said so at the time. I wasn't familiar with ranks to be able
2 to tell what his rank was. Besides, I wasn't interested in that at all.
3 At that point in time, I was only interested in finding somebody who
4 would be able to release us of the trouble we had because what had been
5 done was mindless to bring people over and keep them on buses overnight
6 in the middle of town.
7 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you very much, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Before Mr. Karadzic re-examines the
9 witness, I think I should deal with this first.
10 Can I draw the attention the parties to transcript page 45,
11 line 21 to page 46, line 1. It's a transcript -- it's about the
12 transcript from Bosnian court. I don't remember the case.
13 Can we upload the 65 ter 24916, English page 22 and B/C/S
14 page 23.
15 Since only part of the passage was read to the -- to the witness,
16 the meaning might have been different. The transcript reads -- our
17 transcript reads:
18 "Question from Defence counsel Krunic: And did you mention the
19 incident when you were together with Deronjic, and you -- and what did
20 he --
21 "Witness Simic: Yes, I found out that he had informed Radovan
22 about what had happened."
23 "That was truthful testimony, too, wasn't it?"
24 And witness said yes.
25 So it -- my question is related to what Deronjic allegedly
1 reported to Karadzic, but the transcript from the Bosnian court has
2 something more, so I'm going to read it out to the witness.
3 So this is what you said in the Bosnian court. I'll read it out
4 for you:
5 "Yes. I found out that he," he meaning Deronjic, "he had
6 informed Radovan about what had happened, whether he knows that it
7 happened and that the army, according to him, acted irresponsibly by
8 bringing people at all into the situation in which they found
10 So, Mr. Simic, this is my question for you. Do you know what
11 Deronjic reported to Mr. Karadzic at the time?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I suppose he informed him of
13 the event that happened at the Kravica farm co-operative.
14 JUDGE KWON: And you heard that from Mr. Deronjic?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 Can we have the previous page, page 22 in Serbian of the document
19 we have here. I don't know. Can we have the bottom of the page shown to
20 the witness.
21 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
22 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Simic, a moment ago you said, and that was
23 page 59, line 1: I suppose -- I believe he informed him.
24 Have a look at what you said here. He probably heard about it
25 later, and he probably sent word about it further. Which is true? Is
1 what you said here true or what you said on page 59 true?
2 A. Well, I assumed with quite a bit of certainty that
3 Miroslav Deronjic had heard of -- about what had happened at Kravica and
4 that it was his duty to inform you. This was something that you expected
5 him to do. However, when I spoke about it with him, I can't recall at
6 which point in time this was, I asked him, "Did you send word? Did you
7 spread information?" He said that he did. What the time-frame was, we
8 didn't discuss that. I didn't want to meddle into his duties. His duty
9 was very responsible and I didn't want to interfere.
10 Q. The transcript did not reflect "probably." It seems that this
11 word "probably" is eluding us. And you didn't -- you also said -- you
12 didn't tell us who he informed?
13 A. Well, he didn't tell me who it was who he informed. He only said
14 he informed those up there. I didn't ask him who these people up there
15 were. I supposed that he informed those whom he was supposed to inform.
16 Q. Thank you. What did you know about the incident at Kravica?
17 A. As I said on a couple of occasions, I heard about the incident
18 from Jovan Nikolic who, on the morning following the incident, came to my
19 office to see the president of the Executive Board, Srbislav Davidovic,
20 and there he told us how the event unfolded, what happened. He said that
21 there were quite a few people killed up there and that it was the result
22 of an incident caused by one of those who were rounding up these
23 individuals who were part of that group and that what followed was random
24 killing of the people probably as a result of fear, although I don't want
25 to make a psychological analysis now of the minds of the people who were
1 supposed to securing them over there.
2 Q. What was the number of the persons killed that you learnt about?
3 A. I never heard any numbers ever. Nobody spoke in terms of
4 numbers. They only said that quite a -- that a lot of people had been
5 killed there. What did that mean "a lot," I don't know, but nobody gave
6 any figures. Nobody made count of the people. They just said that many
7 people had been killed.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we have the next
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. What was the unit or formation deployed to Kravica to provide
12 security there?
13 A. I can't talk about it. I don't know. When Nikolic spoke about
14 it, I wasn't interested in knowing who was securing them, which unit. My
15 first response to that, of course, concerned the people in Kravica, who
16 they were, and they told me that these people had probably been taken
17 prisoner as they had been retreating as soldiers, and that they had been
18 rounded up in a village beyond Kravica, and that somebody then ordered
19 that these people be taken in. I suppose they were supposed to be
20 transported. However, at that point, the incident took place resulting
21 in the tragedy.
22 Q. Can you look at your first answer here on the page in Serbian.
23 Did this happen -- did he know that this happened and the army acted
24 irresponsibly? Did you know or do you know now that it was the army that
25 provided security there at the time?
1 A. Well, this was to be expected. Who else would have been in
2 charge of this military operation? In my belief, it would have been the
3 army. And when I said that they made a mistake, I can explain what I
4 meant, and my first response was that of a shock. How come these people
5 ended up in Kravica? They were not supposed to be there to begin with.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we have pages 22
7 and 23 in Serbian admitted, as well as the corresponding English pages of
8 the document we have in front of us. Can they be admitted as one?
9 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber has no difficulty with it. Do you have
10 any objection, Mr. Nicholls?
11 MR. NICHOLLS: No, Your Honour. No, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll admit it.
13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D3400, Your Honours.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] A round number. Fine. Thank you.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Please tell me, do you know exactly what Deronjic allegedly told
17 me about the incident at Kravica?
18 A. I don't know what he told you or if he spoke directly to you or
19 to somebody else. I can say nothing specific about that. I suppose that
20 he should have reported to you because you sent him there. There may
21 have been an agreement between the two of you that he can give
22 information to somebody else in case of your absence, but I never
23 discussed his authority or his powers with him.
24 Q. Thank you. On page 55, line 8, the word "irony" didn't make it
25 to the transcript. Judge Kwon asked you and then you clarified. And
1 then you also said that you had said that the two Muslims were the
2 Muslims in town, not the whole municipality, and even that was meant
3 ironically; right?
4 A. Yes. We only covered a small part of the area of some 10 to
5 15 square kilometres. The other territory belonged to villages bordering
6 on other municipalities. There were barricades. We were unable to pass
7 by there, and there were even some people killed in attempts to remove
8 those barricades which stayed there until a military operation was
9 launched. And those areas were strongholds from where attacks were
10 carried out. That's how Kravica was hit, and both Serbian and Muslim
11 villages were isolated or cut off from us and we were reduced to some
12 5 or 6 kilometres.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
14 MR. NICHOLLS: Give me one moment, Your Honour. Okay. Page 62,
15 lines 9 to 12. Mr. Karadzic said that the witness said:
16 "And then you also said that you had said that the two Muslims
17 were the Muslims in town, not the whole municipality."
18 Could I have a cite to that, please? Maybe I'm missing it. I
19 don't know what he's referring to. Maybe I missed it, in which case I
20 apologise. I don't recall the witness saying that.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On page 55, the transcript does not
22 reflect what I said, that's why I intervened. Line 8. It was not
23 reflected that all that had been said ironically. The percentage was 64
24 to 36 and that there were only two Muslims, but these two Muslims were
25 the Muslims in town, not in the whole municipality. The transcript is
1 wrong. We can check it against the tapes.
2 MR. NICHOLLS: Well, then it's just a bit unusual that normally
3 Mr. Karadzic make these transcript corrections at the time if there was
4 something missing about municipality and Bratunac town instead of asking
5 an incredibly leading question, putting it in. So I can check the tape,
6 but I didn't see it in the transcript because it wasn't there.
7 JUDGE KWON: Witness mentioned seeing children passing along the
8 street, and Mr. Karadzic pointed out there's some omission in the
9 translation of the word "irony" or "ironic," so I take it that he meant
10 to correct the transcript. Let's move on in any event.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. P1478, please. The
12 page in Serbian is 251, and in English, 253. I believe these are the
13 correct page numbers in e-court, or possibly 252 and 253. I'm referring
14 to the typed version. 252. The following page in Serbian.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Mr. Simic, the second paragraph from above, could you please read
17 it out slowly.
18 A. "We had to move out a part of the people also because of our
19 'heroes' who fled from Kovacevici."
20 But this is not our municipality, so I don't know whose words
21 these are. Kovacevici, there is no such place in our municipality as far
22 as I know.
23 Q. Uh-huh. So move out --
24 A. "Part of the people also because of our heroes who fled from
25 Kovacevici." Here obviously the word "heroes" is use ironically.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to draw your attention
2 to those reading -- the attention of these reading the English version
3 that the translation reads "evict," whereas a correct translation is
4 "moved," because evict means forceful removal.
5 JUDGE KWON: If you could remind me whose words this is,
6 Mr. Nicholls. Can we see the previous page?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Pavlovic, Marko Pavlovic.
8 MR. NICHOLLS: Correct.
9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see 24913. That's the
11 65 ter number.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Now we're returning to 1992 and the issue of the evacuation of --
14 or, rather, while we're on this meeting at Zvornik, did I advocate ethnic
15 cleansing at that meeting and what was my position with regard to the
16 events that were unfolding in that sense?
17 A. I heard no word to that effect, and when it was --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat.
19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Simic, because you overlapped with the
20 interpretation, the interpreters had difficulty to understand you. Could
21 you kindly repeat your answer, and please put a pause before starting
22 answering the question.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not hear one sentence from
24 you that could be interpreted as encouraging anything like that or
25 supporting it, and when I spoke about the situation at Bratunac, you gave
1 Mladic a long look, expecting obviously him to do something. That's how
2 I understood it to mean. And I concluded that you had understood each
3 other that a unit of reinforcement should be sent there, a unit from
4 elsewhere, in order to resolve the situation.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Thank you. Do you remember whether you were there at the time
7 when Captain Dragan was at the meeting?
8 A. At this meeting we're discussing, I saw you and Mladic and some
9 people who had been invited but nobody else.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we see page 4 of
11 this document. Page 4 in the Serbian. I don't know about the English
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Now let us try and shed some light on the following. It says
16 "We from the Crisis Staff again reacted to this and demanded the
17 political or police forces" -- just a minute.
18 "Bearing in mind the situation as it was, we in the Crisis Staff
19 decided to help those who had been imprisoned by supplying them with food
20 and water. The president of the Crisis Staff informed the civilian and
21 military authorities in Pale about the events and asked for a solution to
22 the problems that had been created. I don't know at whose approval in
23 any event it was obtained from Pale. We were given the assignment of
24 transferring the captured men."
25 That's what you said; right? Let's just see. It says here
1 someplace that you supposed that Deronjic spoke to somebody.
2 A. Yes. He is president of the Crisis Staff, and he was probably
3 the only one who was able to do anything. The rest of us didn't know who
4 to turn to, and at the time it was difficult to find anybody because the
5 situation was chaotic everywhere more or less, and the institutions
6 weren't -- or couldn't be reached at places where we would expect them.
7 So Deronjic had to show initiative.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
9 MR. NICHOLLS: Okay. Looking at this document Mr. Karadzic read
11 "Let's just see. It says here someplace that you suppose that
12 Deronjic spoke to somebody."
13 It says in the statement in English:
14 "The president of the Crisis Staff informed the civilian and
15 military authorities in Pale ..."
16 So where is the "supposed," that he supposed that happened? It
17 says it did happen in the statement. It's very leading to read out from
18 the statement and then just ask for a yes, and it's even worse to change
19 what's written in the statement and read it out as though it was there.
20 JUDGE KWON: Where is it, Mr. Nicholls? I have difficulty
21 locating the passage.
22 MR. NICHOLLS: It's on page -- top of page 5. Second sentence.
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
24 MR. NICHOLLS: There's no "supposed" in my translation.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We'll find it.
1 MR. NICHOLLS: This is the passage Dr. Karadzic was reading from.
2 JUDGE KWON: And Mr. Karadzic himself read that passage himself:
3 "The president of the Crisis Staff informed the civilian and
4 military authorities in Pale ..."
5 Transcript page 65, lines 24, 25.
6 Do you follow, Mr. Karadzic?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, but there is a sentence like:
8 I suppose that Deronjic spoke to somebody. Whether it's in the minutes
9 or this document I cannot tell now, but I can get around that. And
10 besides, I got my answer.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Do you remember the dates, roughly, at least the period?
13 A. This event happened, and I believe that it greatly contributed to
14 the rampaging of these people in the town after the -- after deputy
15 Goran Zekic was killed. The situation changed drastically. Both the
16 Serbs and the Muslims believed that we would be able to preserve the
17 peace on the next day started doubting everything and they didn't have a
18 hope that anything good could be achieved.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
20 MR. NICHOLLS: That's nonresponsive, your answer. The question
21 was about the date. If he's linking it to what happened with Mr. Zekic,
22 that's fine, but it's still about the date.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. I can try to assist you. Zekic was killed on the 8th?
25 A. I suppose so, but I've already said initially I'm bad when it
1 comes to dates. Goran Zekic got killed before this event with the people
2 in that hall. I'm positive. I was very near, and I sat with the man who
3 was next to Goran Zekic who was -- he had blood all over him. Zekic
4 drove, and this man was the -- sat in the passenger's seat.
5 Q. Was it after the event at Glogova, and if so, how much later?
6 A. I think that just before Goran's death, we were informed the
7 staff of Territorial Defence composed of reserve officers from Bratunac
8 would go to Glogova to disarm them again because they knew from the
9 previous instance that very few weapons had been handed in and that there
10 would be more problems in the coming period.
11 Q. Try to be briefer, please. Do you remember when Glogova
12 happened? And this incident, when it did happen, before or after
14 A. It was after Glogova. The first day after Glogova, Miroslav
15 continued to collect weapons at Suha and somewhere else, and from Suha or
16 wherever these people were brought in by the paramilitary units. They
17 were taken to the gym at Karadzic.
18 Q. And how long after they were brought were they sent to Pale?
19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, interpreters. Yes, please answer the
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So shall I repeat what I said
22 earlier? So Glogova --
23 JUDGE KWON: No, no. The question was how long after they were
24 brought were -- they was -- were they sent to Pale.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that it was three or four
1 days later. I'm not quite sure. That would be more or less the time
2 that they spent there, because we had to find someone. Miroslav was
3 trying to find a solution to that question.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Thank you. It's okay, but my question is: Do you recall when
6 was the session of the Assembly of Republika Srpska held when I was
7 appointed president?
8 A. I don't remember that. We didn't have any communication signals
9 and means at the time. We were not able to watch television, and we were
10 not informed.
11 Q. Would the 12th of May ring any bells?
12 A. I told you already that I have problems with the dates. However,
13 if you mentioned an event, I can recall. When it comes to the dates, I'm
14 not good at it.
15 Q. Thank you. On page 42, it wasn't recorded that there were only a
16 few policemen. Can you concern -- confirm that you said that at that
17 time there were only a few policemen in Bratunac?
18 A. Yes. I think that the most striking shortage at that time in
19 Bratunac was the lack of policemen. We have left with only a small
20 number of professional police officers. There were also before that
21 period only a few reserve police officers.
22 Q. It's all right. It's all right. Now, this is the issue of
24 Now, can you tell me where your house is located?
25 A. It's about a half an hour walking distance to the east. It's a
2 Q. Thank you. On page 41, my learned friend Mr. Nicholls suggested
3 to you that it was impossible that you hadn't seen the buses on the night
4 between the 13th and the 14th of July, 1995. Is it possible to see the
5 town from the village where you lived? If you say half an hour, that's
6 about --
7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't hear how many
8 kilometres. Please could the speakers not overlap. Thank you.
9 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Did you mention, yourself,
10 Mr. Karadzic, about distance?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, if the witness
12 said half an hour, that would be 2.5 kilometres. I asked him to confirm
13 whether it was half an hour walking distance and whether that coincides
14 with the distance of 2.5 kilometres, because the witness says half an
15 hour walking distance.
16 JUDGE KWON: It's leading. You should put the question to the
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, but we know that a
19 person can cover 5 kilometres on foot. I just wanted to accelerate
20 things, that was all. So I just wanted to ask him to translate half an
21 hour of walking into a distance.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, about 2 kilometres, and
23 everyone can check it because I still live where I had lived at the time.
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
25 MR. NICHOLLS: Just, Your Honours, to be clear, it may have been
1 inadvertent, but I did not suggest that the witness could see the buses
2 from his house. I was asking him if he was serious that he didn't see
3 any buses because he was at home.
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Let's continue.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. On page 31, the question contained an assertion that Mladic asked
8 you to take food and water to the enclave. Were you supposed to take
9 food and water to the enclave or to Potocari?
10 A. To Potocari.
11 Q. Thank you. On page 29, terrible discussions -- terrible
12 conditions in Srebrenica were discussed. Can you tell me what was the
13 population in the town itself during the war?
14 A. Are you referring to Srebrenica or Bratunac?
15 Q. No, Srebrenica, because the discussion was about horrible
16 conditions in Srebrenica.
17 A. I don't know about Srebrenica. I suppose that about
18 10.000 people may have resided in the town itself. Srebrenica as a town
19 is concentrated in an elongated shape and around a stream, and the houses
20 there are pretty large. So I suppose that approximately it could
21 accommodate about 10 .000 people, but I never paid attention to the
22 statistical data either relating to Srebrenica or Bratunac.
23 Q. But if 20- or 30.000 lived in Potocari and 13- to 15.000 fled to
24 the forest, how many were living during the war in that same area?
25 A. Well, there were more of them during the war than before the war.
1 JUDGE KWON: How does it arise from the cross-examination,
2 Mr. Karadzic?
3 MR. NICHOLLS: It's also exceptionally leading - sorry to
4 interrupt, Your Honour - to tell him if there were this many people here
5 and this many people here and then you do the math I want, what do we
6 arrive at. And the witness has already said he didn't know and he was
7 speculating about the population.
8 JUDGE KWON: Shall we move on?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I just wanted to find out how it
10 derived because the suggestion was that these horrible conditions were
11 imposed by the Serbs. I just wanted to hear how many people lived in the
12 area that used to have 10.000 inhabitants and then had about
13 35.000 inhabitants during the war.
14 JUDGE KWON: Let's move on to another topic, but for planning
15 purposes, how much longer do you need to conclude your re-examination?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Between 10 and 15 minutes. Maybe
17 it's better if we took a break, because I have some UN documents,
18 contemporaneous UN documents to discuss.
19 JUDGE KWON: If it is 10 or 15 minutes, how about going long? I
20 will ask the court deputy whether it is okay.
21 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
22 JUDGE KWON: Try to conclude in 15 minutes.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Most certainly, Your Excellency.
24 Thank you.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. You were asked whether there was any mention of the evacuation
2 while you were with Mladic, on page 13 you said nobody would have come to
3 Srebrenica at this meeting in the brigade. How did you understand
4 Mr. Nicholls' question that there was discussion with people from
5 Srebrenica at 8.00?
6 A. As far as I know, at 8.00 there were no Srebrenica
7 representatives at the Bratunac Brigade, and I wasn't even aware of
8 anyone having invited them to come to this meeting in the brigade.
9 Q. Thank you. Was any civilian from Srebrenica who were under the
10 control of our authorities and army asked to return from Potocari to
11 Srebrenica to their homes?
12 A. As far as I am aware, I didn't see such people. Maybe some of
13 them stayed behind, but while I was walking with Mladic, I don't know
14 what time it was, the Srebrenica streets were empty. I only saw two
15 elderly people, a man and a woman, in the centre of the town, and they
16 talked to journalists and Mladic joined them and conversed with them.
17 That were the only people I saw moving around.
18 Q. Were the foreigners, or, rather, representatives of the UN aware
19 of what the Srebrenica civilians wanted with regard to their wish to
20 either stay or go?
21 A. Well, I do believe so, and I think that the huge majority of
22 people of Srebrenica wished to leave the town due to the horrendous
23 conditions because Srebrenica was overpopulated, because the population
24 congregated there from all the other surrounding municipalities, and I
25 can claim surely that Srebrenica had more inhabitants during the war than
1 it had before the war. And even General Morillon mentioned that fact
2 when I met him twice during his tenure and his engagement in Srebrenica.
3 He knew that Muslims wanted to leave Srebrenica collectively, and he
4 wanted to help them with that, and he managed to organise a convoy,
5 whereas the other convoy was stopped by our army because pursuant to some
6 earlier agreement some conditions were not met and, as a result, the
7 convoy was stopped.
8 Q. Can you recall, in which year did Morillon convey the wish of the
9 Muslims to leave Srebrenica?
10 A. It may have been 1993.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we please now see
12 1D3382 in e-court.
13 This is a telegram sent by Ambassador Akashi to Annan and other
14 persons for their information only. If you look at paragraph 2 at the
15 bottom, and I'm going to read it out to you for interpretation:
16 "[In English] Paragraph 5 should take account of the fact that,
17 according to UNHCR, a great majority of the residents of Srebrenica do
18 not wish to remain there. They are already displaced persons from
19 elsewhere and will wish to move on."
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. How does this fit to what you know about the wishes of the
22 Muslims of Srebrenica and the knowledge that the international community
24 A. Well, this information is consistent with what they knew, and we
25 all knew that some of them tried to run away towards Tuzla. And it is
1 true that even before the outbreak of conflict a great many people left
2 Srebrenica, which means that at the very beginning of all these dramatic
3 events, Srebrenica was nearly an empty town. Goran Zekic and some young
4 Muslims and Serbs were the only inhabitants initially.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can this document be
6 admitted into evidence?
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll receive it.
8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D3401, Your Honours.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we now have
10 65 ter 21087. It's a document of similar content admitted as a P exhibit
11 but only one page. However, in this instance we have a document which is
12 more complete.
13 JUDGE KWON: What is the P number, Mr. Karadzic?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, that would require some
15 effort on my part to reorganise. I believe that was the last document
16 shown by Mr. Nicholls as a P exhibit. It is a somewhat different format.
17 The title is the same, but the format is different. Can we have the next
18 page, please.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Take a look at what it says in paragraph 4, and that is that the
21 Medecins sans Frontieres had informed them that there were 10.000 people
22 in Potocari inside the UN compound and 20.000 outside of it. And then
23 they say that there were between 60 and 70 wounded people.
24 And then paragraph 5 reads:
25 "[In English] The plans of the UNHCR and UNPF conveyed yesterday
1 in my Z-1139 to evacuate all those people from Srebrenica wishing to
2 leave have encountered at least initial resistance from the Bosnian
3 government authorities. As indicated, the UNHCR SE will be meeting with
4 Bosnian minister for refugees Cero in Tuzla today, at which meeting
5 satisfactory agreement and arrangements can hopefully be worked out."
6 [Interpretation] And somewhat down below:
7 "[In English] Bosnian minister Mulatovic made the following
9 "(a) Local Bosnian officials in Srebrenica are not authorised to
10 negotiate on behalf of the Bosnian government at least until proper
11 communications can be established with them; and (b) the Bosnian
12 government does not accept the movement of any people out of the enclave
13 other than in the case of medical emergency; (c) Srebrenica is a UN safe
14 area and the newly displaced should be accommodated there; (d) adequate
15 accommodation for a large influx of displaced is not available in Tuzla
16 which is already saturated with displaced persons," and so on.
17 [Interpretation] Was it known was that the central Bosnian
18 government in Sarajevo was resisting the evacuation of civilians
19 regardless of what their wishes were?
20 A. Well, it was this first attempt made by Mr. Morillon. I don't
21 know with whom. I didn't have any information about it. It was for the
22 most part carried out by the army and Morillon. Evidently, they wanted
23 to prevent this. They did not meet one of the basic criteria, as
24 Morillon put it, that some of the Bosnian Serbs from Tuzla be evacuated
25 on the journey back. Apparently Morillon said that Alija Izetbegovic had
1 tricked him, that he had promised him this, and that when this first
2 convoy went out, it was supposed to bring Serbs as well. But on the
3 second convoy, he went back on this promise and then our people no longer
4 allowed other convoys to take place.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can this document be
7 JUDGE KWON: I think it -- yes, I have the information. The
8 second document in this 65 ter number, i.e., page 4 and 5, were admitted
9 as separate number, Exhibit P3974. So there's no need to admit it
11 Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
12 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, I'd just say if Mr. Karadzic wanted
13 to ask this witness about this document, the witness can't read the
14 document and about what it shows about who wanted to leave and why and
15 who would not accept that, then he should have read paragraphs 2 and 3 of
16 page 1. The witness could understand what was -- the preamble to this
18 JUDGE KWON: Let us leave it. I forgot to mention this was
19 admitted as Exhibit P5197.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But only the first page; right?
21 JUDGE KWON: Three pages.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Then it was not correctly noted in
23 e-court. Can we have 65 ter 16851 for a moment.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. While we're waiting for this, Mr. Simic, can you tell us the
1 approximate time of arrival of that convoy?
2 A. The one that was taken out by Morillon?
3 Q. No, no. The 12th. The time of arrival of the convoy. You said
4 that you were told that it was going to arrive in the evening.
5 A. At sunset. I don't wear a wristwatch, so that's how I recall
6 that it arrived just before the sun set.
7 Q. Thank you. And how long would they have been on the 12th of July
8 in Bratunac?
9 A. Well, it was summertime. I didn't pay much attention to that.
10 Q. Thank you. And in this document that was drafted at 6.00 and
11 arrived at 7.19, it's dated the 12th of July and says that Srebrenica
12 fell and that the evacuation was nearly over. And then on page 3 -- I'm
13 sorry, on page 4 --
14 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
15 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm trying to keep up. He's reading from page 1
16 just now. Where does it say the evacuation is nearly over? Are you
17 talking about paragraph 1 which says it's just commenced?
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll give it a look now. I was
20 rushing a bit. Yes, right. The evacuation has commenced. But the
21 document was supplemented in the course of the day, and there are
22 supplements as separate documents as well. However, this final document
23 produced at 6.00 has all the supplementary information. You have the
24 update on page 2, and then another update and yet another. So it's a
25 collection of reports, and in one of these updates it is stated that it
1 is nearly complete.
2 JUDGE KWON: But Mr. Nicholls is correct. You need to cite very
4 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't think a document from the 12th can be
5 updated to say the evacuation is nearly complete, and I don't see it in
6 here although I haven't had a chance to read the whole thing.
7 JUDGE KWON: If you need a break, we'll break.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll finish with this document,
9 Your Excellency.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Let's have a look at page 4, item 3, that the supply of water has
12 not been cut off and that there is food for two meals only until the 13th
13 for all the people who are there.
14 At page 5 there is mention of, under point 2:
15 "[In English] The situation now remains calm but tense. The
16 commanding officer of DutchBat is again holding a meeting accompanied by
17 a selected few of the refugees and with the BSA to negotiate for
18 humanitarian aid from the BSA. Info received indicates that BSA have
19 accepted to assist with food and water. UNMOs and MSF are, however,
20 further negotiating for medical assistance."
21 [Interpretation] Did you know that Mladic and the army promised
22 and did help with the delivery of water and food supplies?
23 A. I arrived there in Potocari later. It was probably finished by
24 that time I took up the duties I came there for. As for medical care it
25 was working in proper order. Those injured were transferred to the
1 health centre in Bratunac and we also had an ambulance there with medical
2 staff in the field.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
4 MR. NICHOLLS: The beginning questions in the premise of showing
5 this document was about the time the convoy arrived on the 12th. That's
6 how Mr. Karadzic started this line of questions using this document. Is
7 he saying this document says that a convoy arrived on the 12th from UNHCR
8 of food?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, if this report was
10 completed by 6.00, then everything that followed after 6.00 would not
11 have been contained in this report but in the report issued on the
12 following day, the 13th. That was the point I was trying to make.
13 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry, but just trying to keep the record
14 semi-straight and honest, the reports of the 13th say that the convoy
15 arrived in the evening after all the refugees had left.
16 JUDGE KWON: Let's leave it at that. It's the subject of your
17 further submission. Let's get on with the evidence of this witness.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted? But
19 in essence it isn't that important because -- well, the witness said that
20 he wasn't that good handling the various dates. Can this document be
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive it.
23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D3402, Your Honours.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Simic.
25 Thank you, Excellencies. I have no further questions.
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Unless my colleagues have a question for
2 you, that concludes your evidence, Mr. Simic. On behalf of the Chamber,
3 I thank you for your coming to The Hague to give it. Now you are free to
5 We'll rise all together. We will have a break for 45 minutes and
6 resume at 1.35.
7 [The witness withdrew]
8 --- Recess taken at 12.51 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 1.38 p.m.
10 [The witness takes the stand]
11 WITNESS: STANISLAV GALIC [Resumed]
12 [Witness answered through interpreter]
13 JUDGE KWON: There certain change of members. Good afternoon,
14 Ms. Edgerton.
15 MS. EDGERTON: Good afternoon, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
17 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, with your leave, I'd like to address
18 the Chamber on a matter related to, in fact identical to, the matter I
19 rose before you on yesterday, and that's with regard to the late
20 notification of material. So yesterday, if I do have leave, I addressed
21 Your Honours about the late notification of General Galic's expected
22 evidence in chief and documents which included untranslated material, and
23 even after that, raising that with Your Honours, last night after the
24 examination-in-chief of General Galic had already begun, the Prosecution
25 was or the parties were notified of a further additional 28 documents
1 that Dr. Karadzic wished to use with General Galic in his
2 examination-in-chief, and seven of those are untranslated.
3 So, Your Honours, because of my having risen yesterday and
4 because the exact thing I complained about yesterday has effectively --
5 has continued, I felt compelled to rise and make further submissions.
6 We are, under heading 2(g) of Your Honours' guidelines for the
7 conduct of trial, required a file a final list of documents or material
8 that might be used during the examination-in-chief of a witness no later
9 than 48 hours before that examination-in-chief begins. And there have
10 been cases, I recall some personally and there may be some that arose
11 with my other colleagues, there have been cases, small in number, where
12 the Prosecution has accepted additional documents while the
13 examination-in-chief was underway. But the circumstances in this case
14 given the lateness, given the nature of the material that was disclosed
15 on Saturday, given the volume of the material that has disclosed last
16 night, and that in light of my concerns yesterday I'd say the
17 circumstances in this case now are extreme, and I would like to submit
18 something to Your Honours for consideration.
19 Under heading 2(g) of Your Honours' guidelines which deals with
20 disclosure of material which is going to be used in cross-examination, a
21 party seeking to use a document or material during cross-examination that
22 was not listed or disclosed according to the provisions of that section
23 may be permitted to use that material on showing good cause, and because
24 of the situation that's arisen and the number of documents we received
25 last night in blatant, I would submit, disregard of Your Honours'
1 guidelines, I would submit Your Honours might find it appropriate to
2 require Dr. Karadzic to show cause similarly for each and every late
3 document he now wishes to add.
4 And furthermore, Your Honours, just with respect to the
5 untranslated material that we received both Saturday night and last
6 night, I would request in these circumstances that Dr. Karadzic should
7 not be entitled to use these documents with the witness until they're
8 translated. Thank you.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
10 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. Well, first of all, our
11 principle remains the same that we agree that the Prosecution should be
12 allowed to have as much time as they need before having to cross-examine
13 the witness and if as a result of these materials being disclosed to them
14 at the time they were they need more time, we don't oppose that. We have
15 good cause, actually, for not having disclosed these materials earlier,
16 because what happened was when General Galic came to the Detention Unit
17 last week for the first time, which was the first time we were able to
18 have any contact with him, he was proofed by Mr. Sladojevic and it wasn't
19 until Saturday that Dr. Karadzic first encountered General Galic and was
20 able to have his own proofing session. And after that session, when the
21 proofing note was prepared and he saw what the topics were, he realised
22 that something that had been left out was documentation that supported
23 General Galic's testimony about the scheduled incidents, and so he
24 directed our team to -- he gave us some documents and directed us to
25 include those in the documents being uploaded to e-court and disclosed to
1 the Prosecution for use during the testimony of General Galic, and that's
2 exactly what we did and we did it as soon as we could.
3 So that's the actual factual situation as to why this last group
4 of documents came when it did.
5 So we propose to use those documents with General Galic. To the
6 extent that they're not translated, like other documents used with
7 Rule 92 ter witnesses that are untranslated, they can be discussed in
8 court and marked for identification, and if the Prosecution needs more
9 time before cross-examining on those documents, either the language
10 section or their own services can translate them so that the
11 Prosecution's cross-examination can proceed.
12 But anyway, we were working under conditions that are somewhat
13 unusual with this witness because of our lack of access to him, and we've
14 done the best we could under the circumstances. But the bottom line is
15 that there's no grounds or precedent for prohibiting us or excluding
16 these documents since, as we know, the Prosecution on at least
17 62 occasions has been found to have failed to disclose to us documents
18 which we might have otherwise wanted to use, and there 's never been any
19 remedy of exclusion for those disclosure violations, and it would be
20 unfair to begin imposing a remedy like that on the Defence at this stage.
21 Thank you.
22 JUDGE KWON: Were those documents additionally added on the
23 65 ter list?
24 MR. ROBINSON: Most of them I don't believe were on the 65 ter
1 JUDGE KWON: Would you like to add anything, Ms. Edgerton?
2 MS. EDGERTON: No, thank you.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE KWON: Under the circumstances, having heard Mr. Robinson's
5 submission, the Chamber finds there's a good cause on the part of the
6 Defence, and we'll allow them to be used, and if necessary, the Chamber
7 is minded to allow a short adjournment to the Prosecution upon request.
8 Yes, Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
9 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Good
10 afternoon. From what I understood, Witness Galic has a technical
11 problem. He can't access the transcript, which he should be able to
12 follow in order not to speak too fast. It seems that he can't see the
13 transcript. Thank you.
14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you for informing that to us. Probably
15 inadvertently pushed a button.
16 Do you see the transcript, General, now? Very well.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, now I can see it.
18 JUDGE KWON: Let's continue. Mr. Karadzic.
19 Examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]
20 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, General, sir. Good afternoon,
21 Mr. Piletta-Zanin.
22 A. Good afternoon.
23 Q. General, yesterday we started discussing the topic of outgoing
24 fire, provocation, and attacks. In that period of time in 1993, was
25 there any change in the intensity of fire?
1 A. We spoke of the enemy fire, the BH Army fire. In 1993, I believe
2 that the pace or intensity remained the same or similar. It didn't
3 change much.
4 Q. Thank you. And did your view that you should not return fire
5 unless strictly necessary change?
6 A. Well, this position was taken on all of our levels with a view to
7 honouring the agreement and to reducing our losses. Whenever we were not
8 strictly forced to return fire, we did not do so.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we call up 1D01473.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You may have rushed a bit. I
12 haven't finished my answer.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Sorry.
15 A. The response to fire would follow after we sustained losses. I'm
16 sorry, I was waiting for the transcript to run, and you have rushed.
17 Q. Thank you. The witness said that there would be response to fire
18 after losses were sustained or after an attack commenced.
19 Is that what you said?
20 A. After we sustained serious losses, that's what I said, or after
21 an attack was mounted which would threaten our positions.
22 Q. All units?
23 The General has been speaking slowly, but we haven't had
24 everything reflected in the transcript.
25 A. I'm sure the pace will be better later.
1 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry, I --
2 MR. PILETTA-ZANIN: [Interpretation] To be of assistance to
3 everyone, I confirm that the problem stems from the English translation,
4 and the French translation keeps abreast of the pace so far.
5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we call up 1D01473. We've been
7 waiting for it for a while now.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. General, sir, this is dated the 4th of February, 1993, the
10 situation as at 1800 hours. You see it says here that the attack
11 commenced at 1700 hours with 120-millimetre shells targeting Nedzarici
12 from the direction of Dobrinja 5 and the Olympic village, that such a
13 combined artillery and infantry attack was still ongoing and there was
14 sniper fire. You said that you were at the lines reached and that your
15 focusing on reconnaissance and observation of enemy activity.
16 What does this mean that you're not returning fire yet but you
17 are only observing and reconnoitering?
18 A. If I go back to that period of time of the 4th of February, 1993,
19 I'm sure there must have been specific reasons why we did not respond to
20 this sort of threat in terms of fire and risk to which our territory was
21 exposed. I suppose that there was a specific reason why we did not want
22 to return fire at once. I suppose that in the meantime a protest was
23 lodged with UNPROFOR that the BH Army should desist from further
24 attacking our lines or else we would return fire.
25 Q. You said earlier on whenever there were serious losses. Here we
1 have one soldier wounded and one child wounded as well, and this wasn't
2 sufficient for you to return fire; right?
3 A. Well, I have to tell Their Honours here that I regretted every
4 death we had during the war, and the situation in Sarajevo was
5 particularly difficult, the Sarajevo front line, and I was especially
6 aggrieved by the death of children. And it's -- I'm not the sort of
7 person who would say one thing and do another, and I felt particularly
8 sorry for children. And thus, in this case, we had a child that -- who
9 died, but probably the decision at the time was that we should not place
10 at risk our greater goals.
11 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us what the sentiments were on --
12 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, you are not to comment and the last
13 part of previous question was also leading. You have to ask this witness
14 whether this document is saying whether VRS was firing or not.
15 Yes, Ms. Edgerton. Would you like to add anything?
16 MS. EDGERTON: No. I was rising about the leading question
17 before we moved on further. But only a caution, because I see it already
18 and hear it already, for Dr. Karadzic who has experience in this
19 courtroom to wait until the translation is completed so that we can all
20 hear what's going on accurately.
21 JUDGE KWON: So while we have this document before us, Mr. Galic,
22 it's not clear from this document whether the SRK was returning fire or
23 not because it does not say anything about it except saying it was
24 observing with the aim of monitoring enemy activity.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, we're going to ask the
2 JUDGE KWON: I asked the question to Mr. Galic.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. As for the earlier
4 comments from the Chamber and the Prosecution, I accept them and I
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. General, I'd like to ask you this: Why does it not say here
8 whether you returned fire or not?
9 A. It's not written here because -- well, this was signed by my
10 chief but let me answer your question nevertheless. It is not written
11 here for the following reason. Whatever we returned fire, we would
12 record exactly which were the areas that we responded to. There was once
13 when I was speaking about artillery and other combat assets when I said
14 that we always had to note down whatever was used to respond, whatever
15 assets we used, it had to be noted down. So in this case the situation
16 was that we did not return fire.
17 Q. Thank you, General.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive it.
20 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D3402, Your Honours.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. 1D01478, please.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. I'll follow up on your previous reply once we see what this
24 document says. It says here between 1600 and 1630 hours, that is, half
25 an hour, ten shells hit our positions. And in item 2 your units are
1 mentioned, and it says the artillery of the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised
2 Brigade replied to enemy action from Mojmilo and Dobrinja 3 in order to
3 neutralise it and protect their units.
4 Can you explain what this means.
5 A. It was our estimate at the time that given the use of enemy units
6 and their activities, these areas and units were threatened and that we
7 had to return fire and neutralise the source of enemy fire. We targeted
8 those areas from where enemy fire came, I see here. I also have to read
9 it first to be sure that this is the case. This is from my corps command
10 and was sent to the Main Staff. But yes, this is what we spoke about
11 yesterday and are still discussing today.
12 Q. Thank you. And here it says: After 1700 hours, our forces did
13 not open infantry or artillery fire and were in the zone. What does that
15 A. If we look at item 1, the time period is from 1600 to 1630. That
16 is the time of enemy activity. After a certain time we responded and
17 that is roughly the time artillery needs to respond, about a quarter
18 hour. Irrespective of the types of artillery fire that exist. And after
19 half an hour -- or, rather, within half an hour there was no response
20 from our side. It's good that this was drafted this way, because it
21 reflects the rhythm, and this is how combat tasks were carried out.
22 Q. What would have happened, General, if you had not responded by
23 targeting these firing positions? What would the enemy have done on that
25 MS. EDGERTON: It calls for speculation I would suggest.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't think so. The General can
2 speak from experience. I'm sure he knows what happens unless you show
3 your teeth, unless you respond.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if you don't respond, they
5 mostly continue their activity against our forces. They always look for
6 means and ways to inflict losses on us and move the front line. We saw
7 that yesterday on that map.
8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Galic, could you read the second sentence in
9 paragraph 2, starting from: "The 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade."
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
11 The artillery of the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade responded to
12 enemy action from Mojmilo and Dobrinja 3 in order to neutralise it and
13 protect their own units.
14 I believe that's what we said. I explained why the response was
15 like this and in which areas --
16 JUDGE KWON: My question is: If you read the next sentence it
17 expresses SRK as "our units," but I was wondering what "their units"
18 were? To protect their own units. What does it mean?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, as for item 2, that was the
20 style these reports were drafted. Under 1, you report about the enemy;
21 under 2, you report about your own forces; under 3, you describe the
22 situation in the territory. This is a perfect example of the way all
23 reports are drafted. Our units -- it always reads the combat readiness
24 of the SRK units, the corps units. And such a report can also include a
25 decision about the activities to follow.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellency, I see what the problem
2 is. It reads "their units" but it should read "our units." It was
3 translated as "their own units" again. It's incredible that "our units"
4 are translated as "their units" or maybe the interpreter simply read the
6 JUDGE KWON: Very well. It's noted.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
9 MS. EDGERTON: Just before we do that, this is the second
10 document that the General has commented on today that's not signed by
11 him. The first one he indicated was signed by his chief. And with
12 respect, we know nothing about his chief, why his chief would sign the
13 documents and he not, or the circumstances in which his chief would sign
14 these documents, whether he or not he indeed saw them if his chief would
15 sign them. And I would think that that would be the sort of foundational
16 questions or foundational evidence we would -- should hear before
17 admitting this document.
18 JUDGE KWON: Well, that could be taken up in your
19 cross-examination but let's hear from the witness.
20 Can you assist us, Mr. Galic.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The reports are mostly drafted by
22 the staff. When I'm present and not busy otherwise, I read the report,
23 but when it's taken elsewhere to be amended or encoded, sometimes it is
24 simply signed by the Chief of Staff or the officer standing in for me.
25 That's a report of the command, it's not a personal report, so that the
1 whole command stands behind this report.
2 Each morning and each evening there was the briefing. We
3 summarised our reports and analysed them. It was impossible for anything
4 to be sent out to inform the Main Staff by chance or arbitrarily. But I
5 as a commander stand by all such reports although this was signed by my
6 chief, but he's my deputy so he has the authority to sign documents for
7 me and he had the right to certify this.
8 JUDGE KWON: This will be next Defence exhibit.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D3403, Your Honours.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we see 1D01480.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. This is dated two days later, General. Can you please tell us
13 what the enemy was doing? Item 1 refers to the enemy. Artillery fire on
14 Ilidza, the barracks Grbavica, one civilian killed, four wounded. What
15 were the -- the usual losses per day? Is this an ordinary, average day
16 or is this an exception?
17 A. During a war all days are the same or very similar. It all
18 depends on what happened and what orders were issued to one side or the
19 other. Were orders issued about limiting activities or launch activities
20 or to ban offensive activities, and the goal's always the same, the goals
21 of the warring parties. This is a normal war day.
22 Q. Thank you. Item 2 says that the corps units responded adequately
23 to enemy fire. Could you please explain what that means, "adequately"?
24 A. This term "adequately" is widely used in military vocabulary. It
25 was used often during the war. It means that when there was a fire from
1 infantry weapons, then the response would also be from infantry weapons.
2 During my trial there was always the problem with distinguishing between
3 infantry fire and sniper fire. It was alleged that it was the same, but
4 it's not. So when there was infantry fire, you respond by firing from
5 infantry weapons. When there was mortar fire, you respond with your own
6 mortars. We did not have recoilless guns -- or, actually, we did but we
7 didn't have ammunition, so I don't think the entire corps during my
8 command fired a single shell from a recoilless gun, whereas they used to
9 extensively. I could tell you stories about that, but there's no time.
10 Q. Thank you. Tell us about item 4. It says: Weariness and
11 psychological strain. What were the shifts on the front line in the SRK,
12 and what was it like in the 1st Corps of the BH Army with regard to
13 numbers or manpower?
14 A. Yeah. This is the core of the problem of the Sarajevo-Romanija
15 Corps. We didn't have depth of territory to man our forces. We didn't
16 have enough forces to have some soldiers in reserve. We were drawn out
17 along the front line like a web only to cover the 65 kilometres that we
18 mentioned yesterday because we had too few soldiers and too few units.
19 Unit rotation was supposed to happen once a week. However, in
20 reality, only the 2nd Romanija Brigade was able to do so, whereas others
21 were -- spent their time on the front line and half their time at home.
22 That's why the fighters were weary. This was February 1993, so it's
23 winter, and that's another reason why the soldiers were weary and tired
24 and that must be mentioned.
25 If we look at the manpower we had at our disposal, our side and
1 theirs, we will see that at the Sarajevo front we had about 10.000 men.
2 I'm referring to only that area. Whereas the 1st Corps of the BH Army on
3 average had 35.000. We supposed that they were even more numerous during
4 certain periods, even up to 40.000 or so.
5 What were their resources like in terms of manpower to cover all
6 axes? We saw that their brigades are deployed battalion by battalion,
7 whereas we were unable to do that because we had pull people out for them
8 to rest. So they were able to rest longer and rest almost entire units.
9 Q. Thank you. You were talking about 35- to 45.000 soldiers. Are
10 you talking about forces in the city itself or do you include those at
11 the Nisic plateau, at Hadzici and on Mount Igman. Later, those were the
12 14th and 16th Divisions. Who are you talking about when you say 35- to
14 A. I'm talking about the forces that were mostly in Sarajevo, the
15 1st Corps, and I spoke about the forces of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps
16 which are linked with Sarajevo.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the sentence.
18 JUDGE KWON: Could you repeat and speak a bit slower.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. You said you were speaking about the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, the
21 part of it that was oriented toward Sarajevo. And what are you talking
22 about when you speak about the 1st Corps of the BH Army and their 35.000
23 to 45.000 men? Which forces are you referring to?
24 A. I'm referring to -- I have to go slow. I'm referring to the
25 forces of the 1st Corps of the BH Army that were in Sarajevo. And I must
1 add to that, because I spoke about this Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, I must
2 also describe the situation in the 1st Corps of the BH Army. As far as
3 we knew, in 1992, 1993, the 1st Corps of the BH Army had about
4 78.000 soldiers, 78.000. The Prosecutor admitted as much during my trial
5 as well. If we add to that the reinforcements up there and you mentioned
6 them in connection with Ilijas or in the Olovo area, those are the forces
7 of the 3rd Corps that later became an operative group, Visoko and Vares.
8 But I don't know when divisions were formed because I had already gone.
9 These are not included in the numbers I mentioned. These 78.000
10 [Realtime transcript read in error "38.000"] were in Sarajevo on Mount
11 Igman and they were holding the territory up to the Drina area and
12 Gorazde, and the 1st Corps covered all that territory. And that's what
13 their zone was according to our estimates. So much about these forces.
14 Q. Thank you. In line 7 it should read "78.000" instead of "38.000"
15 because that's what the witness said, 78.000. Is that correct?
16 A. Yes, yes, 78.000.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted into evidence?
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D3404, Your Honours.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we now have 1D10505
21 [as interpreted], please. 01505. 1D01505.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. This is dated 15th of March. Let's not talk about the sniping
24 mentioned in paragraph 4, but in item 2, you say that our forces managed
25 to repel the attack and then you speak about unexpected events, that is
1 to say, that they fired from Butmir at Igman. Four shells fell. One
2 soldier was killed, and 14 detainees were wounded. And you say that all
3 these detainees were Serbs.
4 Did our enemies know what the Kula prison was and who was kept
6 A. Well, all the people living in Sarajevo knew what the Kula prison
7 was. We know that the majority of our troops were originally from
8 Sarajevo and that applied to the 1st Corps of the BH Army as well. Their
9 people were from Sarajevo, even though I must say that they had more
10 people from outside of Sarajevo.
11 So the command knew what was in this prison in Kula, and that
12 there were detainees held there who had no weapons, who were only serving
13 their sentences there and were doing only jobs according to the plans
14 made by the prison administration. Now, forgive me for being so blunt
15 but I must say that a driver was -- my driver was injured. I put him in
16 detention because he did something that he was not supposed to do. So we
17 had to treat everyone equally, but it seems that here only Serbs were
18 wounded. I don't know how many Muslims were incarcerated there, because
19 this prison was run by the Ministry of Justice.
20 Q. Thank you. And here it says that an UNMO came to establish
21 whether there was there was a violation of cease-fire. Did that happen
22 during cease-fire?
23 A. Well, most definitely since this is what is noted here, and I
24 think that UNPROFOR also lodged some protest requesting that such
25 facilities not be targeted. But I don't think that this facility
1 specifically was often targeted as other facilities were.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted into evidence?
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D3405, Your Honours.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we now have
6 1D01509. We're going to skip some dates, but if the Chamber think it is
7 appropriate, we're going to look at each daily report according to bar
8 table which will show exactly how things developed during the war.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Could you please look at this regular combat report dated the
11 18th of March, where you say that several hundred shells fell on Ilidza.
12 And then you go on to say, under item 2, that the Ilidza, the Rajlovac
13 and the Vogosca brigades were actively involved in operations according
14 to plan.
15 Can you tell the Chamber what did you mean by carrying out active
16 operations according to plan?
17 A. One can see here, because when something like this is being said,
18 that obviously relies to the previous report which clearly says what the
19 plan was. As I can see, this is 18th of March, 1993, and that the
20 Vogosca, Rajlovac and Ilidza brigades were engaged in combat. They did
21 take part in the activities towards the Nisic plateau.
22 Q. Thank you. When you speak about the consumption and the active
23 operations, did you present summary consumption on the inner circle or
24 outer circle or are these two figures presented separately?
25 A. A summary report made by a corps is always made as a whole. It
1 doesn't make a distinction between the inner ring or the outer ring. The
2 Igman Brigade, which was deployed both to Sarajevo and Ormanj, it showed
3 its total losses incurred on that day. For example, if a number of
4 grenades fell which caused certain losses, they would present their total
5 losses, but they would indicate specifically what they did and that is
6 the basis for everyone to understand what they did and why they suffered
7 such losses.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted into evidence.
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D3406, Your Honours.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we now have
13 1D01514, 1D01514.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. This is 22nd March 1993. This report reads that about 200 shells
16 hit Ilidza and resulted in the death and injuries of civilians. What was
17 so militarily attractive in Ilidza? Was there any military installation
18 in the civilian part of Ilidza to warrant such an enormous number of
19 shells being fired on it?
20 A. In the very centre of Ilidza there was nothing apart from the
21 municipal building and you know exactly how Ilidza looks like, but
22 towards the source of the Bosna River was the brigade's command post.
23 Perhaps that was their target. Anyway, if you go beyond towards the --
24 in depth of Ilidza, there was nothing that was militarily interesting.
25 That was the place where the civilian facilities were only.
1 Q. You mentioned the source of the Bosna. Was there any waterworks
2 there and do you know anything -- do you know whether these shells caused
3 damage to this installation and transformer stations?
4 A. I don't know which particular report speaks about this but I do
5 know that for a period of time a transformer station in Hadzici was a
6 target. So that is part of the electrical grid and it goes from Hadzici
7 to Ilidza and Sarajevo. And if electricity is cut off, that means that
8 there is no water supply as well. We had some water sources there, and
9 one particular source was called Bacevo, which is located more towards
11 Do you want me --
12 Q. We'll come to that. All I wanted to ask you, whether when they
13 were firing on Ilidza -- probably the answer can be found under item 3,
14 where it says in the report that the security of citizens has been
15 violated due to intense enemy artillery against populated areas. Where
16 was the origin of this fire that targeted the populated area?
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
18 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, I find, in my submission, that
19 Dr. Karadzic is starting to be quite leading in the way he is asking
20 these questions.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'm not putting questions to
22 the witness. All I'm doing is reading the document and it says that
23 there were wounded and killed civilians in Ilidza, and all I'm asking is
24 about the origin of fire. We can see where the shells landed but where
25 did they come from.
1 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton, having discussed with the witness
4 about the ways in which the VRS responded to various attacks, the Chamber
5 sees no difficulty with the accused going through the combat report which
6 the witness himself wrote. Unless there's some special circumstances in
7 which he needs to put some foundational cases, the Chamber will allow the
8 accused to carry on.
9 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Thank you. So let me simplify things. My first question was:
12 Was there fire targeting populated area their response to fire coming
13 from our positions?
14 A. If you read in the report from which direction it came, it came
15 from Donji Kotorac and other positions in Vojkovici, which is an area
16 more to the east. That means that from our populated area there was no
17 fire opened. For example, we had our positions outside of Ilidza. We
18 didn't have any deployment inside the town itself. Maybe a command post
19 or something similar to that, and that's what the BH Army had as well in
20 their part.
21 As for the deployment of our artillery and other weaponry, we
22 always tried to deploy military units in the vicinity of populated area
23 as much as possible.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Outside the
25 populated areas.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Both their side and our side found
2 this to do difficult and found it almost impossible to -- not to deploy
3 or have a piece of weaponry that would be a legitimate target if it is
4 positioned close to a civilian facility. That was the essence of it. We
5 did our best, but let's be honest, it wasn't always possible to achieve.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted into evidence.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D3407, Your Honours.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can now have 1D01521, please.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. This is already the 5th of April. Sir, this is at 1400 hours,
13 and it says at around 10.00 in the evening, on the 4th April, ten shells
14 fell on Grbavica and two shells hit Kaponiri, at the old airport. They
15 fired from a Browning and one house was set on fire.
16 Now, under item 2, our forces, it says as follows: Our forces
17 are honouring truce along the -- reached our lines and very seldom opened
18 fire from infantry weapons at the observed --
19 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Karadzic please slow down.
20 JUDGE KWON: Could you -- no, just a second. Could you repeat
21 your question.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. I asked the witness to tell the Chamber why there was no response
24 or why they responded only rarely, and to describe how the two warring
25 parties behaved themselves on this specific day.
1 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Before you answer the question,
2 Mr. Galic, can I ask you to read out bullet point 2, para 2.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Para 2.
4 "Our forces are at the lines reached and are observing the
5 cease-fire and only rarely upon approval opened fire from infantry
6 weapons upon observed targets."
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I see a slight difference in English
9 Yes, please continue.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Thank you. In item 7 and onwards, an UNPROFOR convoy was stopped
12 or perhaps it was a UNHCR convoy. Or rather, yes, can you answer my
13 question about why it was that you returned fire only rarely. In item 2
14 you say that fire was opened rarely.
15 A. Well, if we look at all the various assets that we used to fire
16 upon our forces, we will see that a response from infantry weapons was
17 not an appropriate or adequate response, so we reduced it to what would
18 be an adequate response. And then, as I can see, a cease-fire was still
19 in force and the use of all assets was banned. So why was it decided to
20 open fire only selectively? Well, in order to neutralise the enemy in a
21 way or to simply make him refrain from opening fire which was observed
22 under para 1 here, and that was why this sort of response as described
23 here was chosen.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There was another question that you
2 put to me.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Yes. Yes, it's a separate topic.
5 A. I apologise.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
7 MS. EDGERTON: It should be marked MFI, then, as this is a
8 Defence uploaded document so that they can request a revised translation.
9 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson.
10 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, I think we're happy to request the revised
11 translation, but I think it's been our practice to admit the translated
12 documents even though there may be revisions required.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, with that caveat, we'll admit it.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D3408, Your Honours.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, the Defence is
16 tempted to seek adequate resources to ask for all the translations to be
17 revised, because the translations are so poor as to change the meaning of
18 the text. And we will be seeking your support in this request unless we
19 find the Registry to be accommodating in this respect.
20 Can we now call up 1D01525.
21 MR. ROBINSON: While that's coming up, I should probably note
22 that that translation error was actually in our favour, so sometimes
23 errors can go both ways.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. General, this is already May. We are therefore skipping a couple
1 of weeks here. So we see that the enemy fired on the general area of the
2 north-western part of the front, on urban areas and industrial plants,
3 and it says that attacks were successfully repelled.
4 Can we have the next page.
5 There is a surprising issue here, and you can tell us what this
6 is all about, under D, forecast or outlook, where it says:
7 Today, at around 10.30, the enemy engaged own forces by targeting
8 the BH Presidency and the Ukrainian Battalion command. They are trying
9 to make their own combat activities appear as those of the VRS and have
10 lodged protests with UNPROFOR representatives and the mass media.
11 What are your comments on this?
12 A. Well, having looked at this report, I think the matter is quite
13 clear. The Presidency is being targeted, which is a civilian feature,
14 although, of course, it has grown into a Supreme Command, as it were.
15 Though we refrained from firing upon the Presidency.
16 Now, next, fire upon UNPROFOR members, members of the Ukrainian
17 battalion. I don't know when exactly it happened that the
18 Ukrainian Battalion member was hit by the BH Army. Was it on that same
19 day? I'm not sure, it may have been the case, but I know that later on
20 it was said that a member of the Ukrainian Battalion was killed. Fire of
21 this sort most certainly damaged our side, because it was being
22 insinuated that and attributed to our side. Whenever there was fire upon
23 the Presidency, who would be to blame? Well, everybody would say that it
24 was the SRK forces rather than the forces of the 1st Corps of the
25 BH Army. Or if you adjust the various angles as the Sevas did or I don't
1 know who else in the area of responsibility of the 1st Corps of the
2 BH Army in Sarajevo, they even had their own pathologists who would
3 adjust the data so as to make it appear as if the origin of fire was from
4 the SRK. So it was difficult to prove that the SRK forces were not to
5 blame. That's why we were reporting such events to the Main Staff. And
6 it doesn't say here but I do assume that a protest or a warning of some
7 sort, an alert, was submitted to UNPROFOR.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can this be an
9 admitted. I note the time. We're waiting for the Chamber's ruling on
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll receive this.
12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D3409, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE KWON: We'll adjourn for today. We need to give some time
14 to prepare for Mr. Tieger and Mr. Robinson for tomorrow.
15 Mr. Galic, there will be no trial hearing tomorrow and we'll
16 continue on Thursday. I take it you understand that you're not supposed
17 to discuss about your testimony with anybody else.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'm not really discussing it
19 anyway. Thank you.
20 JUDGE KWON: The hearing is adjourned.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.33 p.m.,
22 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 18th day
23 of April, 2013, at 2.48 p.m.