Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 38687

 1                           Thursday, 23 May 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, I have something extra here in case

 7     you --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you very much.

 9             The Chamber will issue a decision on the admission of

10     65 ter 25082, a five-page excerpt from the expert report entitled

11     "Inconsistencies of experts Berko Zecevic and Richard Higgs in cases of

12     the shelling of Sarajevo," which Witness Subotic coauthored with another

13     Defence expert, Witness Mile Poparic.  The Prosecution used the first and

14     the third pages of this document during its cross-examination of Subotic

15     on the 16th of May, 2013, and sought its admission on the same day.

16             By way of background, the Chamber recalls that in its "Decision

17     on Prosecution's request to exclude portions of reports of Mile Poparic"

18     issued on the 12th of March, 2013, it granted, inter alia, the

19     Prosecution's request to redact certain sections of that expert report,

20     including section A2 that contains these five pages.

21             Requesting the admission of 65 ter 25082, the Prosecution submits

22     that this document identifies some areas where the Prosecution and the

23     Defence "have common grounds" and that it also shows "pictures about

24     multiple-barrel rocket launchers."

25             The accused's legal advisor responds that he has no objection to

Page 38688

 1     the admission but wishes to have the option of tendering additional pages

 2     from the redacted section of the expert report as there might be other

 3     relevant material therein.

 4             The Chamber notes that when granting the Prosecution's request

 5     for exclusion of section A2 in its decision of the 13th of March, 2013,

 6     it considered that this section contains Poparic's analysis of a report

 7     coauthored by Zecevic which is not part of the trial record and "thus

 8     there is no evidentiary basis against which to assess the analysis" in

 9     that section.  Accordingly, the Chamber found that "the analysis of a

10     non-admitted report of Zecevic discussing unscheduled incidents would not

11     assist it in its determination of Zecevic's credibility as an expert."

12             In this light, the Chamber considers that there is no basis to

13     admit 65 ter 25082 for the purpose of challenging Subotic's finding for

14     the same reason that the Chamber excluded section A2.  The Chamber would

15     also not be assisted in its determination of Subotic's credibility as an

16     expert since it decided not to admit these portions of her coauthored

17     report.  Accordingly, the Chamber denies the admission of 65 ter 25082.

18             The next matter is related to a subpoena.

19             The Chamber is seized of the request to the Trial Chamber to

20     suspend the subpoena to allow Tolimir to file an appeal against the

21     decision on the accused's motion to subpoena Zdravko Tolimir and --

22     against the subpoena.

23             In this regard, the Chamber wishes to hear from the parties, in

24     particular as to witnesses standing to challenge this subpoena.  While

25     the Chamber notes the Rules provide that only parties can appeal the

Page 38689

 1     decisions, it also is cognisant of the Jonathan Randal decision in which

 2     the Trial Chamber that issued the subpoena against the witness, Jonathan

 3     Randal, who was a war correspondent of Washington Post, if my memory's

 4     correct, granted the leave to appeal the decision, and the Appeals

 5     Chamber set aside the subpoena on several reasons.  So whether -- I'm

 6     wondering whether the Chamber could hear the views of the Prosecution and

 7     the Defence, if it so wishes, by the end of this week.

 8             Well, that said, we'll bring in the witness.

 9                           [The witness entered court]

10             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness take the solemn declaration,

11     please.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

13     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Kosoric.  Please be seated and make

15     yourself comfortable.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17                           WITNESS:  SVETOZAR KOSORIC

18                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Before you commence your evidence, Mr. Kosoric, I

20     must draw your attention to a certain Rule that we have here at the

21     International Tribunal, that is Rule 90(E).  Under this Rule, you may

22     object to answering any question from the accused, Mr. Karadzic, the

23     Prosecution, or even from the Judges if you believe that your answer will

24     incriminate you in a criminal offence.  In this context, "incriminate"

25     means saying something that might amount to an admission of guilt for a

Page 38690

 1     criminal offence or saying something that might provide evidence that you

 2     might have committed a criminal offence.  However, should you think that

 3     an answer might incriminate you, as a consequence you refuse to answer

 4     the question, I must let you know that the Tribunal has the power to

 5     compel you to answer the question, but in that situation, the Tribunal

 6     would ensure that your testimony compelled in such circumstances would

 7     not be used in any case that might be laid against you for any offence

 8     save and except the offence of giving false testimony.

 9             Do you understand what I have just told you, Mr. Kosoric?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

12             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.  Please proceed.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Excellencies.  Good

14     morning to everybody.

15                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric.

17        A.   Good morning.

18        Q.   Before we start I have to ask you and I have to remind myself at

19     the same time that we have to speak slowly and that we should make ample

20     pause between my questions and your answers in order to have everything

21     recorded properly.

22             Lieutenant-Colonel, did you provide a statement to my Defence

23     team?

24        A.   Yes, I did.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D07051 in

Page 38691

 1     e-court.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Do you see that statement on the screen in front of you?

 4        A.   Yes, I do.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Did you read and sign the statement?

 6        A.   Yes, I did.

 7        Q.   Longer breaks, please.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

 9     the second page with his signature.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Is this your signature?

12        A.   Yes, it is.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Does the statement truthfully reflect all those

14     things that you said or should some things be changed in the statement?

15        A.   No, nothing needs to be changed.

16        Q.   If I were to put the same questions to you today in this

17     courtroom, would your answers be the same?

18        A.   They would be the same.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I'm tendering this

21     statement into evidence pursuant to Rule 92 ter.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive it.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D3562, Your Honours.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And now I'm going to read a short

25     summary of the statement in English.

Page 38692

 1             [In English] In July 1995, Svetozar Kosoric was assistant Chief

 2     of Staff for intelligence of the Drina Corps of the VRS and held the rank

 3     of Lieutenant-Colonel.

 4             During the Prosecution case, Momir Nikolic testified that on the

 5     morning of 12th of July, 1995, just prior to the last meeting with the

 6     Dutch Battalion and the -- at the Hotel Fontana, he had a conversation

 7     with Lieutenant-Colonel Vujadin Popovic and Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric

 8     outside of the hotel.  During this conversation, according to

 9     Momir Nikolic, Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic informed him that the Muslim

10     men from Srebrenica were to be transported to Bratunac and killed and

11     that Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric confirmed this instruction.

12             Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric states that those claims by

13     Momir Nikolic are completely false.  Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic never

14     said anything like that in his presence, and Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric

15     never said anything like that himself.

16             Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric had no information or instructions

17     that the Muslims from Srebrenica were to be killed.  He was not aware of

18     any plan to kill Muslims from Srebrenica.

19             And that's the summary, and at that moment I do not have other

20     questions for Lieutenant-Colonel Kosoric.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Kosoric, as you have noted, your evidence in

22     chief in this case has been admitted in its entirety in writing, that is

23     through your written witness statement, and now you'll be cross-examined

24     by the representative of the Office of the Prosecutor.  You understand

25     that?

Page 38693

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 4                           Cross-examination by Mr. Nicholls:

 5        Q.   Sir, you've testified before in this Tribunal; correct?

 6        A.   I didn't hear you.

 7        Q.   Let me try again.  You've testified before in this Tribunal;

 8     correct?

 9        A.   Yes, I did.

10        Q.   You testified as a Defence witness for Vujadin Popovic in his

11     trial.

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   At that time, you took the oath and you said that you would tell

14     the truth just as you did today; correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And you stand by your testimony in that case, don't you?  You did

17     tell the truth last time you were here, didn't you?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   All right.  And you told the truth no matter who was questioning

20     you, the Defence lawyers, the Prosecution, or the Judges; right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   When you were in the Drina Corps, your nickname was Cica; right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And it's not in your statement, but if I'm correct, basically

25     before your retirement in 2000, you were a life-long military -- career

Page 38694

 1     in the military, life-long military officer.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   All right.  Let's go to July 1995.  You were at all three

 4     Hotel Fontana meetings; correct?  Two on the 11th, one on the 12th.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Let's talk about the 12th, the third meeting.

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I have 65 -- excuse me, P4202, at page 63.

 8        Q.   I want to show you a still picture from the trial video you've

 9     seen before, and to save time I'm not going to play the video, but this

10     is a still from just before that meeting began on the 12th of July, and

11     you see your subordinate, Momir Nikolic, there on the left with the

12     number 1 on his chest; right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And you see your colleague from the Drina Corps, the chief of

15     security, Vujadin Popovic, on the right, number 4.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Okay.  And we won't play the video, but then you arrived and --

18     and that is the same time.

19             I'd now like to go to the same exhibit, page 65.

20             All right.  You see yourself there at the end of the table where

21     you were sitting.  We have that on the video as well.  You've got a

22     number 5 on your chest; right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And you see that man with the number 3 on him, Ibro Nuhanovic,

25     who came from the civilians at Potocari; right?  You remember him being

Page 38695

 1     there?

 2        A.   He must have been since we see him in the photo, yes.

 3        Q.   You don't remember that, shaking his hand?

 4        A.   No, I don't remember that.

 5        Q.   Okay.  And the gentleman from DutchBat with the number 1 on him,

 6     Colonel Boering, you remember him, don't you?

 7        A.   They were there.

 8        Q.   Yes.  They were there.  So what we can see is on the 12th of July

 9     in the morning, the people here are Momir Nikolic, Vujadin Popovic, you,

10     and Colonel Boering, right, all at the Fontana.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Now, I -- to save time I'm not going to play it, but one of the

13     clips from this meeting that was played to you last time you were here

14     testifying for Mr. Poparic was what General Mladic said at this meeting.

15     I'll just read it out to you.

16             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honours, this is from the video at 00:09:55

17     to 00:11:09 for the record.

18        Q.   This is Mladic speaking to the Muslim civilians who were there:

19             "I want to help you, but I want absolute co-operation from the

20     civilian population because your army has been defeated.  There is no

21     need for your people to get killed, your husbands, your brothers, or your

22     neighbours.  All you have to do is say what you want.  As I told this

23     gentleman last night, you can either survive or disappear.  For your

24     survival, I demand that all your armed men, even those who committed

25     crimes, and many did, against our people, surrender their weapons to the

Page 38696

 1     VRS."

 2             Now, when General Mladic says that, he's plainly saying to the

 3     Muslim civilians there that their husbands, the brothers, the men, may

 4     all be killed; right?

 5        A.   Am I supposed to answer that question?

 6        Q.   Yes.  You were there as intelligence officer for the corps.

 7     That's what he's telling them; right?

 8        A.   As a matter of fact, I don't remember that conversation, but I'm

 9     sure that there is a recording of his words.  So if that can be heard on

10     the recording, I suppose it's correct.  In essence, this is more or less

11     what he said, but it's very difficult for me to remember 20 years after

12     the event what exactly he said.

13        Q.   Okay.  Well, if you'll take -- will you take my word that that's

14     what he said on the tape so we don't have to play it?

15        A.   You don't have to play the tape.  I trust you.  Why shouldn't I?

16        Q.   Okay.  So then please answer my question.  As intelligence chief

17     from the corps at this meeting, what Mladic is saying is that all the

18     men -- that the men may be killed if all the weapons aren't surrendered;

19     right?  It's not a complicated question.

20        A.   That's what was said.  That's what he said.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Now, this man Ibro Nuhanovic, number 3 there in front

22     of you, sitting there with you, Krstic, Popovic, with Momir Nikolic out

23     front, what happened to him after the meeting, sir?  What happened to him

24     after he fell into the hands of the Drina Corps?

25        A.   I can't answer that question, but I can say the following:  When

Page 38697

 1     it comes to the representatives from Srebrenica, including the gentleman

 2     under number 1, I returned them to Zuti Most because I was the liaison

 3     officer between the Main Staff and the representatives of the

 4     United Nations.  I had brought them over with an interpreter from

 5     Zuti Most to Srebrenica, to the meeting at Fontana, and then I returned

 6     them back to the base in Potocari.  What happened next I don't know.

 7        Q.   So you don't know that after you drove this man back from the

 8     meeting that he was subsequently taken into custody and murdered and his

 9     body found in a mass grave.  As you sit here today, you don't know that?

10     This is news to you from me?

11        A.   I don't know.  I claim with a hundred per cent certainty that I

12     didn't know that until now, until you have told me that just now.

13        Q.   Mm-hm.  We'll get to it later, but -- well, let's just move on.

14     After this meeting, you went to Potocari on 12th July, correct, along

15     with General Mladic and Vujadin Popovic and some others?

16        A.   Yes, that's right.

17        Q.   Let me read out some of your testimony about what happened when

18     you were in Potocari.  This is from your prior transcript, which for the

19     record is 65 ter 25073 at e-court page 42:

20             "Q.  Were you aware that able-bodied men were being separated

21     from their families while you were in Potocari?

22             "A.  I am not," this is 2009, "I am not aware of such a case.

23             "Q.  Were you aware at any time on the 12th or 13th of July that

24     able-bodied Muslim men were separated from their families in Potocari?

25             "A.  I am not aware of that."

Page 38698

 1             Question from page 43:

 2             "Q.  Were you aware that on the 12th of July that hundreds of

 3     able-bodied Muslim men were separated from Potocari, detained in at least

 4     one small unfinished house in Potocari, and then transported to a hangar

 5     near schools in Bratunac for the night of 12 July.

 6             "A.  I am not aware of that."

 7             Do you stand by that testimony?  Were you telling the truth?

 8        A.   I stand by that.

 9        Q.   Okay.  So last time you testified here, just like you learned

10     today that Ibro Nuhanovic -- or I told you today that Ibro Nuhanovic had

11     been murdered, you learned during your testimony in 2009 that men had

12     been separated in Potocari; right?

13        A.   I didn't know that they had been separated.  I didn't see it.

14        Q.   Yeah.  And just to be clear, you, chief intelligence officer of

15     the Drina Corps in Potocari on the 12th, staying at the Hotel Fontana

16     that night, did not know that men were being separated.  That's the

17     truth.  That's the truth from Kosoric; right?

18        A.   That's the truth.

19        Q.   That's the truth.  Okay.  Do you remember the Hotel Fontana

20     meeting that you were present for, that in fact Mladic told the people

21     that men would be separated -- or, rather, screened and -- for being war

22     criminals, that the men, something different was going to happen to them?

23        A.   I don't remember that.

24        Q.   You don't remember that.  The person you saw on the screen

25     before, we don't need to bring it up again, Colonel Boering from the

Page 38699

 1     DutchBat, he was shown a picture of you.

 2             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I bring that up.  That's 65 ter 25098.

 3        Q.   You were shown this in the Krstic trial.  Now, that's you, right,

 4     in July 1995?

 5             THE ACCUSED:  No, it ...

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's me.

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:

 8        Q.   Now, let me tell you what Colonel Boering said when he was asked

 9     if he recognised this man.  He said:

10             "Yes, I do recognise that man."

11             I'm reading from P03969 at page 80.

12             "Yes, I do recognise that man.  He was also during the meeting

13     there.  He was busy with the transport and organisation to bring out the

14     Muslim people to Kladanj later on."

15             And he said on page 81 of his transcript about you:

16             "That's the man we were talking about, Mr. Kosovic or Kosoric, or

17     something like that, who was responsible for transferring the refugees."

18             So part of your job assigned to you at the Hotel Fontana meeting

19     or that you already had was transferring the civilian population out of

20     the enclave; correct?

21        A.   I will explain to you now how it was, and this can be confirmed

22     to you by the Dutch officer who was with me.  I and the officer from the

23     Dutch Battalion received an assignment, and this was based on the

24     agreement of -- reached at the meeting on the 12th that the wounded and

25     the ill -- not that we should transport them but that we should go to the

Page 38700

 1     area of Kladanj where the wounded and the ill were supposed to pass on

 2     their way to Kladanj.  And I received an assignment from General Krstic

 3     to find somebody from his command to clear that route of any mines, and

 4     this was agreed with the Dutch Battalion.  It was this major from the

 5     Dutch Battalion who went along with me.

 6             We arrived in this place called Luka.  We did what we were

 7     supposed to do there.  The major from the Dutch Battalion continued along

 8     with the wounded and the ill.  This major and I were charged with

 9     securing this.  I didn't have any other assignment.

10             My next task was to go to the Zepa area and that's the --

11        Q.   Stop.  Stop, please.

12        A.   -- enclave as you know full well --

13        Q.   Stop, please.  We'll get to that.  You're getting beyond the

14     transport issue.

15             Well, Mr. Boering's testimony again is that you were the man he

16     understood as responsible for the transport and transfer, and you did

17     indeed transport and transfer civilians out of the enclave; correct?

18        A.   No.  I didn't have anything to do with transport.  Rather, before

19     the transport took place, he and I went to this place called Luka because

20     the route had to be cleared of mines.  And as for the transport itself,

21     who was in charge of it, that was after what we did, after what this

22     DutchBat officer and I did.  We were there, we had a cup of coffee, and

23     secured what we were supposed to do.  And it was neither this major from

24     the Dutch Battalion nor I who had anything to do with the transport.

25        Q.   Mm-hm.

Page 38701

 1             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honour, may I tender this photo?

 2             JUDGE KWON:  I was just wondering how it is relevant.

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:  Well, it's -- it may not be other than for the

 4     record that this is the photo which I've put to him Major Boering

 5     identified as the man called Kosovic or Kosoric who he understood as

 6     being the person in charge.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll receive it.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6333, Your Honours.

 9             MR. NICHOLLS:  And for the record, it's a still made from the

10     trial video of 12 July.

11        Q.   Now, after that meeting ended, 12th of July, this is what

12     Major Boering said, page 108, after he'd started to go towards Potocari:

13             "I then drove back to Bratunac to the Hotel Fontana and I

14     attempted to establish contact.  After trying to find out some things, I

15     ran into Major Nikolic who said that everything had been agreed upon and

16     that I should get lost and that there was no business of mine here."

17             And then he was asked if there were any other VRS officers with

18     Momir Nikolic when this conversation took place at the Hotel Fontana

19     after the meeting, and he said at page 109:

20             "I believe that also the gentleman with the moustache responsible

21     for transport was present there as well.

22             "Q.  Is that the one you referred to as Kosovic or Kosoric?

23             "A.  Yes, it is."

24        Q.   So do you remember after the meeting on 12 July being outside

25     with Momir Nikolic when the DutchBat came back to ask some questions and

Page 38702

 1     was told to get lost?  You were there with Momir Nikolic at the

 2     Hotel Fontana.

 3        A.   No, I wasn't.  I don't remember that.

 4        Q.   You weren't there.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be clarified?  Is that a

 6     meeting inside the hotel or outside the hotel, in front of the hotel.

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  He can read the transcripts and do whatever he

 8     wants on redirect.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  Perhaps he's raised that because there was some

11     issue in interpretation.  The transcript says that Mr. Nicholls asked

12     outside, so from Mr. Nicholls perspective and my perspective there

13     doesn't seem to be any problem --

14             MR. NICHOLLS:  All right.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  -- but since Dr. Karadzic raised it, perhaps the

16     interpretation didn't come through correctly.

17             JUDGE KWON:  So do you remember that you met Major Boering when

18     he returned back to Hotel Fontana, together with Momir Nikolic?  That's

19     the crux of the question.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't remember that, and I don't

21     think that I was there.  Had I been there, I would certainly remember.

22             MR. NICHOLLS:

23        Q.   Right.  So that means you're telling the truth again and

24     Colonel Boering is not telling the truth and Momir Nikolic is not telling

25     the truth but you are.  Right?

Page 38703

 1        A.   I think that I am the one speaking the truth, and Boering should

 2     do the same.  I certainly was at no such meeting.

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:  Now, could I have -- play video-clip 4, please,

 4     Mr. Reid.

 5        Q.   I'm going to show you a clip of you in Potocari on 12 July after

 6     the Hotel Fontana meeting.

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President, before we do that, I was

 8     just wondering if Mr. Nicholls can give me a citation for the comment

 9     that Momir Nikolic is not telling the truth.  So is there a place in

10     Momir Nikolic's transcript where he indicates that Mr. Kosoric was with

11     him?  If so, I would like to have that citation so I can take a look.

12             MR. NICHOLLS:  I'll look it up.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             MR. NICHOLLS:  Stop.  Okay.  Can we go back?  Sorry, I was

15     distracted.

16        Q.   Well, it's hard to get, but did you see yourself just walking by

17     there, behind this gentleman?

18        A.   Yes, I did.

19        Q.   And what were you -- we can see just on the corner here, and we

20     are at 00:30:20.7, that you are carrying something.  What are you

21     carrying there?  It looks like a binder or notebook.

22        A.   Well, I don't know.  I can't remember what it was that I was

23     carrying.  Can you replay that clip?

24        Q.   Yes.

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 38704

 1             MR. NICHOLLS:  Stopped at 00:30:20.3.

 2        Q.   Do you remember now what's in your bag?

 3        A.   No.

 4        Q.   And we can see buses there, and you've already told us that after

 5     this you were part of an escort of the people leaving, being bused to

 6     Luka from the enclave.  Didn't you notice when you were taking these

 7     people out of the enclave to Luka that they were women and children and

 8     perhaps old men?  Didn't you notice that there weren't men being put on

 9     these buses while you were there?

10        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, you are saying here some things that I have never

11     stated.  I'm telling you again that I had nothing to do with the buses.

12     Before the buses, I went to a place called Luka.  A major, an officer, a

13     Dutch officer, arrived there as well.  We were there waiting for the

14     buses to come.  We made sure that sappers cleared the area of mines and

15     the officer accompanied the ill and wounded people to Kladanj, and that

16     is the truth, and that was when we saw these people, and there were men

17     among them.  I remember clearly there were men that I gave my cigarettes

18     to and a tin of canned meat, and that was all happening in Luka that I

19     saw these people.  And during the transport I didn't see the people

20     because I was in my own car.

21        Q.   All right.  Now, you were there with -- on the 12th with

22     General Mladic; correct?

23        A.   Can you please repeat your question.

24        Q.   Yes.  You testified to this before.  When you went to Potocari on

25     the 12th, you were there with General Mladic.  That's why you went.  You

Page 38705

 1     were part of his entourage.

 2        A.   I wasn't part of Mladic's entourage.  All of us who were at the

 3     meeting went to Potocari after the meeting.  It was a very short thing in

 4     Potocari, some five to ten minutes, and since I had a different task to

 5     attend to, I went to Kladanj right after that.

 6        Q.   All right.  Well, we heard in this courtroom from Karadzic

 7     Defence witness Petar Uscumlic a couple days ago.  He went, as you did,

 8     with General Mladic to Potocari on the 12th, and he testified plainly

 9     that he saw men being separated, and he said probably other people saw it

10     too.

11             So, now, are you seriously telling me that a civilian interpreter

12     knew more about the separations going on in Potocari on the 12th of July

13     when you, the Drina Corps head of intelligence -- than you, the

14     Drina Corps head intelligence, when you were there also on the

15     12th of July?  That's a serious assertion?

16             MR. ROBINSON:  Objection, Mr. President.  The testimony from

17     Mr. Uscumlic was that he spent several hours in Potocari.  I don't think

18     it's fair to put that to the witness in the way he's done it.

19             MR. NICHOLLS:  Well, what Mr. Uscumlic testified to was when he

20     was with Mladic, Mladic addressed the lake of people, which is at the

21     beginning, which is when Mr. Kosoric would have been there, and that then

22     they -- he looked over and saw the separations.

23             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think the question was so unfair.  I will

24     consult my colleagues.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 38706

 1             JUDGE KWON:  We see nothing wrong with the question.

 2             Could you answer the question.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I remember, I spent 10 to

 4     15 minutes in Potocari at the most, and then I went to Kladanj to do the

 5     tasks that I was assigned.

 6             MR. NICHOLLS:

 7        Q.   So forget about you being there for 10 to 15 minutes.  You spent

 8     the night of the -- you were in Bratunac.  You're the intelligence

 9     officer.  You still knew less than civilian -- than a civilian

10     interpreter.  That's your testimony; right?

11        A.   I didn't know.

12        Q.   Yeah.  Okay.  Let me read back to you part of your testimony

13     since you just brought something up.  This is from your testimony at

14     e-court page 44.  You were asked about the same clip and about seeing

15     buses beside -- behind you, et cetera.  Question -- this is about you in

16     Potocari on the 12th of July.

17             "Q.  What are you doing there?

18             "A.  I have already said that after the meets with Mladic at the

19     hotel and with the representatives of the Dutch battalion and the

20     Muslims, all of us went to Potocari because Mladic wanted to address the

21     people of Srebrenica.

22             "Q.  So what are you doing there?

23             "A.  I've already answered your question.  We -- all of us went

24     there.  Mladic said that we should all go to Potocari for him to address

25     the people of Srebrenica.  I couldn't avoid it.

Page 38707

 1             "Q.  So were you doing any intelligence work?

 2             "A.  I was not.

 3             "Q.  You were just part of Mladic's entourage?

 4             "A.  Yes, I was.

 5             "Q.  And you did nothing else?

 6             "A.  Nothing."

 7             That's what you said last time you were here under oath.  Were

 8     you telling the truth?

 9        A.   I was.

10        Q.   Well, I won't push it, it's a small point, but you just said you

11     weren't part of his entourage and last time you said you were.  That may

12     be a semantic issue.  But you stand by the fact that you were doing

13     nothing?

14        A.   That's correct.

15        Q.   And that's -- that's the truth, too; right?

16        A.   The truth and nothing but the truth.

17        Q.   Now, let me move on.  Our case is that men were separated in

18     Potocari.  I don't think it's in dispute since Mr. Karadzic asked

19     yesterday of his witness, "Did you see the able-bodied men being

20     separated," and asked him that twice.  Those men, our case is, were taken

21     prisoner, and there was quite a sizable number of them.

22             In your role as chief of intelligence, wouldn't it have been part

23     of your job to question and gain intelligence from these prisoners?  For

24     example, to find out about the movements of the Muslim column, to find

25     out how many men were in the Muslim column walking through the woods, to

Page 38708

 1     find out how well armed they were?  Wouldn't it have been part of your

 2     job to get intelligence from prisoners taken on the 12th of July?

 3        A.   That's correct what you're saying, and that was my job, but I

 4     didn't do that job.  My -- what I was doing was the job of a liaison

 5     officer, and I was given other assignments, and that's why I wasn't

 6     performing that job.  I didn't even take a single soldier or civilian for

 7     an interview, because I had other tasks that I was given and that I had

 8     to attend to.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Were you aware that prisoners were interrogated those

10     days?

11        A.   No, because I went to do a different assignment, and that was far

12     away, 60, 70, perhaps even 80 kilometres away.  And I had no contact with

13     Srebrenica or other organs.

14        Q.   You're talking about Zepa; right?

15        A.   That's correct.

16        Q.   Okay.

17             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I have P04388, please.

18        Q.   Take a look at this document quickly if you can read it.  If you

19     can't read it, tell me.  It's from the 12th of July, 1995.  It's from

20     your colleague Vujadin Popovic, who you were in Potocari with that day.

21     To the Main Staff, security and intel.  And he states in paragraph 3:

22             "We are separating men from 17 to 60 years of age, and we are not

23     transporting them.  We have about 70 of them so far, and the security

24     organs and state security are working with them."

25             Now, you just testified here that you didn't know about prisoners

Page 38709

 1     being interrogated.  So for that to be true, we have to see from this

 2     document that the Main Staff intel and security is being told that there

 3     were prisoners and that security and state security are working with

 4     them, that the Drina Corps command is being told that, that it's being

 5     done by your counterpart in the security branch.  So to the side of you

 6     and above you, people know that separated men are being interrogated, but

 7     you didn't know.  You stick to that.

 8        A.   I do stand by that, and this is the first time I'm seeing this.

 9        Q.   All right.  Now, you --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  The Prosecution counsel is kindly requested to

11     speak into the microphone at all times.

12             MR. NICHOLLS:  I will try.  Thank you, interpreters.

13        Q.   Now, you keep talking about going to Zepa when I ask about what

14     you knew, but last time you were here, you testified that to the best of

15     your recollection you were in Bratunac on the morning of the 13th.  This

16     is at e-court pages 21 and 22 of your testimony last time.

17             Sir, where were you on the morning of 13 July?  This is the day

18     after that Hotel Fontana meeting we spoke about that occurred on the

19     12th.

20             "I'm afraid I don't remember those details, but on the 13th -- on

21     the 13th, I went to Vlasenica to find the commander of the staff," and

22     you go on.

23             And then you say on page 21, "on the 13th, I did not go back" to

24     Bratunac.

25             "Q.  And how did you travel from Bratunac to Vlasenica on the

Page 38710

 1     13th?

 2             "A.  On the 13th I travelled, I think, in a Golf car.

 3             "Q.  And which road did you take?

 4             "A.  I took the main road, Bratunac-Vlasenica.

 5             "Q.  So Bratunac-Kravica-Konjevic Polje-Milici-Vlasenica.

 6             "A.  That's right.

 7             "Q.  At about what time did you set out from Bratunac on the 13th

 8     to do that.

 9             "A.  I don't know, I really can't remember.

10             "Q.  Well, what -- don't worry about time.  Morning, noon, or

11     night?  Morning, afternoon, or night?

12             "A.  I believe it was around noon, perhaps."

13             And I'll ask you a question about that in a minute, but could I

14     please have - this may help you remember - 65 ter 02300.

15             MR. NICHOLLS:  Page 11 in English, page 21 in the Serbian.

16        Q.   That's a receipt from the Hotel Fontana, dated the 14th July,

17     accommodation up to the 13th of July, and you're listed there.  Now, does

18     that help you remember -- and I don't want to make this a compound

19     question.

20             Do you stand by your testimony, then, especially seeing this

21     receipt, that actually you were in Bratunac on the morning of the 13th

22     and that's when you began your trip to Zepa?

23        A.   This is not true.  I'm fully sure that on the 12th I spent the

24     night at Vlasenica, and on the 13th I was at the Zepa command post,

25     because from Zepa and Bratunac, units were arriving that took part in the

Page 38711

 1     Zepa operation.  It also says here Obrad Vicic.  He was at the forward

 2     command post on the 13th as well.  He was Chief of Operations.  And they

 3     all arrived on the 13th and reported to the commanders of those units and

 4     the staff leading this operation.  I don't know how come this was

 5     drafted, but it cannot be correct.  There must be more documents --

 6        Q.   Okay, okay.

 7        A.   -- from Zepa --

 8        Q.   Okay.  Let me ask you this then:  Why is it that in your

 9     statement now, it implies that after you went to Luka you went straight

10     to Vlasenica on the 12th, whereas in your sworn testimony last time you

11     remember the route you took from Bratunac on the 13th through Kravica,

12     Konjevic Polje, and Milici?  Why is your memory better now than when you

13     testified in 2009?

14        A.   Frankly speaking, I must have made a mistake, but now the image

15     is much clearer of all this.  The 13th is simply not possible.  We were

16     at Zepa on the 13th.  I may have made a mistake.  But on the 12th, I was

17     with the Dutch major at Luka, and that's certain.  That was in the

18     afternoon.  I spent the night at Vlasenica, and in the morning I

19     continued to Zepa.  I may have misspoken or maybe I -- the date I

20     mentioned was wrong, because after all, it was long ago.

21        Q.   Okay.  So on the afternoon of the 13th you're in Zepa.  That's

22     your sworn truthful testimony.

23        A.   Yes, that's correct.

24        Q.   With General Krstic.

25        A.   Could you repeat the question?  I didn't understand, or maybe I

Page 38712

 1     didn't hear you.

 2        Q.   With General Krstic in Zepa on the afternoon of the 13th?

 3        A.   On the afternoon of the 13th there was a briefing by all

 4     commanders that received units coming from Srebrenica.  That must have

 5     been in the afternoon or in the early evening hours.  There must be

 6     documents about that or an order, because they reported to him that they

 7     arrived, that they took their positions, and that they were awaiting

 8     further instructions.  That was on the 13th.

 9        Q.   So the answer is --

10        A.   I'm not sure about the --

11        Q.   So the answer to my question then is yes, you were with Krstic on

12     the afternoon of the 13th in Zepa.  That's your truthful testimony.

13        A.   Yes.  Actually, it was not Zepa but Krivace --

14        Q.   Yeah, the IKM.

15        A.   -- that's the exact location of the forward command post.

16        Q.   On the 13th in the afternoon --

17             THE ACCUSED:  Transcript.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In line 20 the witness did not say

20     that was on the 13th, but it must have been the 13th.

21             MR. NICHOLLS:

22        Q.   On the afternoon, late afternoon of the 13th, Krstic was in

23     Vlasenica being promoted to corps commander.  He wasn't in Zepa.  Right?

24        A.   I don't know where he was, but on the 13th he was at the forward

25     command post.

Page 38713

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript, please.  I even said in

 2     English it should have been rather than it must have been.  That's what

 3     the witness --

 4             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honours, before I move on may I tender those

 5     Hotel Fontana, the two pages?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll receive it.

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  I'm being told --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  It's Exhibit -- it will be Exhibit P6334.

 9             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.  And I'm being told that I should say

10     that it's being uploaded, just those pages, as 65 ter 02300A.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

12             MR. NICHOLLS:

13        Q.   All right.  Now I want to move on to the topic of the murders of

14     the persons who were separated in Potocari on the 12th of July and the

15     murders of the other Muslim men who were captured.  And let me read again

16     from your transcript before at page 14, speaking about the people in

17     Potocari:

18             "Q.  Well, it's more than possible, isn't it, sir?  You know what

19     happened to the roughly 50 [sic] to 1.000 men separated outside Potocari

20     that day," speaking of 12 July.  "They were ... murdered, weren't they?"

21             "A.  I don't know, I wasn't there.  Were they killed, were they

22     not killed, I don't know."

23             That was you telling the truth last time you testified; right?

24     You didn't know the men separated in Potocari had been murdered.

25        A.   I'm still saying that I didn't know.

Page 38714

 1        Q.   So you don't know today.

 2        A.   Well, today is something else.  I got information from the media,

 3     from this Tribunal.  Now I know it happened, but I didn't know then.

 4        Q.   Right.  So let's make sure it's clear.  The Drina Corps

 5     intelligence chief learned about the murders that took place in the

 6     Drina Corps area of responsibility from the media.

 7        A.   Not only the media.  Now I remember well, and I prepared for this

 8     testimony too.  It may have been in September or October that other

 9     international bodies spoke to that about -- spoke about that to us.  My

10     intelligence work has a totally different subject matter.  What you're

11     talking about is within the remit of the police and others.

12        Q.   Right.  So just so we know then, you didn't know till September

13     or October about the murders, and you learned that from - how did you put

14     it? - international bodies.  Not VRS bodies, international bodies.

15        A.   There was talk about it in pubs, but those were rumours, and I

16     didn't believe them.  And apart from that, this isn't my job.

17        Q.   Okay.  So --

18             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If it had been recorded in the

20     transcript what the witness said, it would have been clearer.  He said,

21     "We only started believing it then, after learning it from foreigners,

22     from the international community."  That's what he said.  We can check it

23     against the tapes.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

25             MR. NICHOLLS:

Page 38715

 1        Q.   Okay.  So then just to finish this, it was in September or

 2     October when you learned and believed that these murders had, in fact,

 3     taken place, that they weren't just rumours, that there'd been mass

 4     murders of Muslim prisoners?

 5        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 6        Q.   And you learned it not because of your intelligence chief role,

 7     because by that point everybody knew about it.

 8        A.   Not everybody.  I only heard it for the first time and believed

 9     that probably those international bodies had correct information.

10        Q.   Well, how did you hear about it from the international bodies?

11     Were you having meetings with the international bodies in your role as

12     intelligence chief, or did you just read about these international

13     bodies' findings?

14        A.   We mostly read this information from the media and newspapers.

15        Q.   Yeah.  And then it must have been a nasty shock to you as a

16     senior officer in the Drina Corps that these murders had taken place in

17     the Drina Corps area of responsibility.

18        A.   Yes.  I was very much surprised, because there is no order

19     that -- that can say -- that can tell anybody to do that.  Nobody must

20     follow such an order.

21        Q.   Hmm.  Well, that brings me to another topic -- same topic,

22     rather.  When you were asked about the meeting -- or if not using the

23     word "meeting," about the time when you were with Vujadin Popovic and

24     Momir Nikolic in front of the Hotel Fontana.  On direct examination from

25     Popovic's lawyer you were asked, speaking about the statement by Popovic

Page 38716

 1     that all the Balijas would be killed:

 2             "Did you ever talk about anything like this to Momir Nikolic or

 3     did you tell him any of these things I now read back to you," which was

 4     Momir Nikolic's statement?

 5             "A.  I've been listening carefully, this sort of thing is never

 6     dealt with in this way.  No conversation could have occurred outside the

 7     hotel.  That would have been impossible.  All I know is I was ordered

 8     something to the effect that we had nothing to do with the Muslim people,

 9     the captured soldiers ... I was told that the civilian authorities in the

10     Main Staff would be taking charge.  I was told that the units involved in

11     Srebrenica, on that day or the following day, would be off to the Zepa

12     enclave.  What this document says is inaccurate.  A decision must be

13     taken at a higher level, at a meeting.  This is not the sort of decision

14     that is taken outside some hotel."

15             That was your testimony under oath last time about the meeting.

16     And then you were asked about it again.

17             "Q.  Would such a decision, a serious decision like this, be made

18     by General Mladic with his most senior staff inside a meeting room?  Is

19     that how such a decision to kill all the prisoners would be made?

20             "A.  Certainly, that is how a decision would be made, behind

21     closed doors.  Certainly not something out in the open where people could

22     then talk about it.  It was possible that such a decision was taken."

23             Now, do you stand by that testimony?

24        A.   Yes.  I stand by it, but I've never heard anyone order anything

25     like that, but anything is possible.  So if anybody took that decision,

Page 38717

 1     that was the way to do.

 2        Q.   Yeah.  And actually it happened exactly the way Popovic said,

 3     outside the Hotel Fontana before he went down to Potocari, didn't it?

 4     Men were separated and then murdered, and he's been found guilty of

 5     genocide for taking part in those murders; right?  It happened just the

 6     way he said it, and he's been convicted of it.

 7        A.   Well, Popovic never said that.  I never heard him say that.

 8        Q.   Mm-hm.  Now, Pavle Golic, Major Golic, was your subordinate in

 9     intel or your deputy; right?

10        A.   Correct.

11        Q.   In the Drina Corps.  As you sit here today, do you know that

12     Vujadin Popovic and Ljubisa Beara, who are -- strike that.  That both of

13     those men, Beara and Popovic, have been convicted for their role, their

14     direct role in taking part in the murder operation after the fall of

15     Srebrenica?

16        A.   I know that they were -- that they got life.  It was in the

17     media.

18             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I have P05077, please.  And it may perhaps

19     be better to go to page 4 of the B/C/S.  There we see the date of this

20     intercept which is 16 July 1995.  And if we could go to page 5 now.  In

21     the B/C/S.

22        Q.   All right.  Now, I don't want to take the time to go through this

23     whole intercept which the Trial Chamber's seen, but it involves a phone

24     call, a call, from Zlatar, which is the Drina Corps, I think you'll

25     remember, to Palma, which was the Zvornik Brigade, I think you'll

Page 38718

 1     probably remember, and -- sorry, the other way around, Zvornik calling

 2     Zlatar.  And the duty officer in Zvornik says that Popovic is there and

 3     that he urgently needs 500 litres of D2 fuel or his work will stop.

 4             Then if we go to the second page of the English.  The duty

 5     officer in Zvornik, we can see, says:

 6             "Is Major Golic there by any chance?

 7             "Yes.

 8             "Let me talk to him.

 9             "Golic.

10             "Pop just called me to contact to you.  500 litres of D2 have to

11     be sent to him immediately otherwise their work will stop."

12             Now, we also have the fuel receipt showing that in fact at that

13     time 500 litres of D2 was delivered to Popovic in Pilica.  That's P04669.

14     And I don't want to take the time, but there's an entry in the

15     Zvornik Brigade duty officer notebook which also refers to this phone

16     conversation.

17             Our case is that at that time Vujadin Popovic is taking part in

18     the murders of thousands -- over a thousand Muslim men that day at

19     Branjevo farm and Pilica.  That's what this fuel's for.  That's what he's

20     convicted of.

21             Now, the question:  Did you know that your subordinate

22     Pavle Golic was assisting Popovic in this way on the 16th of July?

23        A.   I've never heard this before.  I was at least 30 kilometres away

24     from Golic.  I had no contact with him, with Vlasenica, or Zepa.  I was

25     at the front line.  I had no idea.  And he had no right to request this

Page 38719

 1     from Golic because Golic has nothing to do with that.  Golic had to

 2     monitor the security situation in the western part.  Golic was only in a

 3     position to go about his job.  Our service and the security service are

 4     two totally different things.

 5        Q.   Yeah.  But these lines weren't completely strictly followed, were

 6     they, because part of intelligence is not -- part of intelligence work is

 7     not de-mining a road to Luka, and you assisted in that, and Golic here on

 8     this intercept is assisting Popovic in getting the fuel he needs to keep

 9     carrying out the murders.  So the fact is -- the answer to my question

10     then is that no, you had no clue that your subordinate was involved in

11     this way.

12        A.   I didn't have the faintest idea.  I have never heard of this

13     before.

14        Q.   Okay.

15             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I have P04585.  That's the Zvornik Brigade

16     duty officer notebook, e-court pages 37 to 38.  Page 38 -- page 38 of the

17     English.  Okay.  That's not the right page.  Oh, sorry, we're on page 1,

18     I guess.  Could we go to the next page in English.

19             THE ACCUSED:  Could one of those pages be in Serbian.

20             MR. NICHOLLS:  Okay.  This should be P04585, pages 37, 38, ET 2.

21     I think we've got two versions of the duty officer notebook in here is

22     the problem.

23        Q.   I'll just read it out.  This is an entry in the Zvornik Brigade

24     duty officer's notebook for 14 July 1995.

25             "Colonel Salapura called.  Drago and Beara are to report to

Page 38720

 1     Golic."

 2             Now, Salapura in the Main Staff is head of intelligence; right?

 3        A.   Yes, that's right.

 4        Q.   So Beara there, we say, is the convicted Beara.  The Drago there,

 5     we say, is Drago Nikolic, who's been convicted.  Why are Beara and

 6     Drago Nikolic, who were intimately involved in the murder operation,

 7     being called by your boss to report to your subordinate?  And to help you

 8     reference it, this is the day that the mass murders are carried out in

 9     Orahovac.

10        A.   I don't understand what you're asking.  You are trying to elicit

11     answers saying that I lied.  I didn't know anything about this.  I was 70

12     or 80 kilometres away.

13        Q.   Stop, stop, stop, stop.  Let me make it simple.  That's what I

14     asked you is if you knew about this.  I asked why they were doing it.  If

15     you say you don't know and this is -- you never knew about this --

16        A.   I didn't know.

17        Q.   Right.  So your subordinate is involved with Beara and Nikolic,

18     your boss is sending Beara and Nikolic to talk to your subordinate, but

19     just like the fuel issue, you don't know anything about this.

20        A.   I don't know.

21        Q.   You know, 1995 was not the Stone Age.  We have evidence that

22     Krstic was receiving reports at Zepa.  Command at the IKM need to be in

23     contact with the subordinate units.  You have Motorolas, you have wires,

24     you have couriers.  Just so I understand you, are you claiming you didn't

25     know about the murder operation because since you were in Zepa you

Page 38721

 1     couldn't get any information about what was going on at the Drina Corps

 2     headquarters?

 3        A.   That is correct.  I didn't know a thing, because it wasn't my job

 4     what our units were doing.  I was interested only in where the enemy was.

 5     I was into observation, reconnaissance, and so on.  I only did fieldwork.

 6        Q.   Okay.  So I didn't ask if you were interested but whether you

 7     knew and received communications.  So you received communications about

 8     movements of the enemy.  You were in contact with Golic, because he would

 9     have been receiving information from interrogations of the captured

10     prisoners.  So you were or you were not in contact with Golic and others

11     at the Drina Corps while you were at Zepa?

12        A.   No.  And there was no need for me to be in contact with him.  He

13     was at the corps command.  That's where he received information from the

14     subordinate units and forwarded it to the intelligence administration.

15     You can see that in any document, what he did and what I did.

16        Q.   Okay.  So just so I understand your truthful testimony under oath

17     here today, you're in some kind of bubble in Zepa where you have no idea

18     what's going on in the Drina Corps area of responsibility even though

19     you're chief of intelligence?

20        A.   That is correct.  I didn't know anything, and I claim that with

21     full certainty because I only collected information about the enemy.  And

22     I repeat that that was for the security organs, the police organs and

23     other organs to do.  I strictly did my job, and I can say, and there must

24     be documents showing that, as soon as I arrived at the Drina Corps

25     command, I separated my intelligence unit from the security unit.

Page 38722

 1             MR. NICHOLLS:  Is it time for a --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, if it is convenient, we shall take a break for

 3     half an hour and resume at 11.00.

 4             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Please continue, Mr. Nicholls.

 8             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  For my friend

 9     Peter Robinson, if he looks at T24554 [sic], 13th of February, 2012, that

10     is a page where Momir Nikolic describes a conversation in front of the

11     Hotel Fontana after the second meeting when Mr. Kosoric is there, amongst

12     others, and he says that two Dutch officers came up, Rave and another,

13     and he sent them away.

14        Q.   I want to move on to August, Mr. Kosoric, something you testified

15     about last time you were here.  This is at e-court page 62.  And to

16     orient yourself, this is in early August where you recalled that you were

17     taking part in an effort to get prisoners from the RS who'd fled to

18     Serbia back, and here is the question and answer to refresh your memory.

19            "Q.  Do you recall in the last part of July and early part of

20     August, hundreds of Muslims from Zepa and Srebrenica fleeing across the

21     Drina River and going over and seeking refuge in Serbia?

22            "A.  I know that after the fall of Srebrenica most of the Muslim

23     soldiers crossed to Serbia.

24            "Q.  And we have intercepts in this case where General Krstic

25     mentioned you and Popovic going over to Serbia to get those prisoners.

Page 38723

 1     Were you involved in that?

 2             "A.  I was.

 3             "Q.  And were you able to get the prisoners?

 4             "A.  No.

 5             "Q.  Why not?"

 6             The following page:

 7             "A.  I don't know the answer to that question.  Serbia simply did

 8     not wish to deliver them."

 9             Do you stand by that testimony?

10        A.   Before I answer, I would kindly ask you to do something about the

11     sound.  I have a hearing-aid, and I can actually hear you better than the

12     interpretation.  The answer is yes.

13             It's much better now.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Let's make sure you're comfortable.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Do you hear me well, Mr. Kosoric?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you very well, yes.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Do we have a problem with the --

18             MR. TIEGER:  Yes.  And --

19             JUDGE KWON:  -- court reporter?

20             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, who advises apparently that she'll need to

21     reboot and a little bit of time is necessary for that.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Let's just wait a couple of minutes.

23             Now it seems to have been resolved.  Yes.  Shall we start over

24     again with your question, Mr. Nicholls.

25             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Judge.

Page 38724

 1        Q.   Are you comfortable, Mr. Kosoric, with your hearing?

 2        A.   Yes, I can hear you well now.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Could you just please repeat your answer.  It didn't make

 4     it onto the transcript today.  The part I read back from you -- read back

 5     to you from your testimony in the Popovic case, you said that you stood

 6     by the answer.  The question was -- the answer was yes, you stood by what

 7     you'd said before.  Could you affirm that?

 8        A.   Yes, I can, and I do.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Now, I'd like to show you P05258.  This is an

10     intercept which includes somebody from the VRS Main Staff named Stevo

11     who, I think we'll learn when he comes as a witness, is Stevan Tomic, and

12     Mr. Beara.  And we see this is the 1st of August, 1995.

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  If we go to page 2 of the Serbian, please.

14        Q.   Now, without going through it all, we say this is about the same

15     process we just talked about, trying to bring Muslim prisoners back from

16     Serbia.  And at the bottom of the page in English we see Stevo saying:

17             "We have some information they are relocating across the river,

18     man, not swimming."

19             And J, Jevtic, says:  "Well, we are catching some and the MUP is

20     too."

21             And then S says, Stevo, says:  "Listen, the men that you catch,

22     hand them over alive to our men.  We have nobody to exchange.  Fuck it."

23             And that's right, isn't it, that on the 1st of August, 1995, the

24     VRS had nobody to exchange?  You knew that as intel officer taking part

25     in the process of trying to get these people back, didn't you?

Page 38725

 1        A.   I knew nothing about this.  I don't know who that Tomic is.  I

 2     didn't have any information about the detainees.  I didn't know whether

 3     there were any detainees or not.

 4        Q.   So you didn't know how many prisoners had been taken after the

 5     fall of Srebrenica by the VRS and MUP.  That was not something you knew

 6     as of August?

 7        A.   I didn't know.  I didn't know then.  I didn't know before or

 8     after.  I don't know to this very day.

 9        Q.   Right.  Even though interrogating prisoners is part of

10     intelligence work; right?

11        A.   It is correct that that would have been part of my duties, but I

12     did not interrogate prisoners.  I was not in the territory of Srebrenica.

13     I was on my own.  I was on a field mission at the time.

14        Q.   Again, the question wasn't whether you interrogated prisoners

15     yourself, but I'll move on.

16             MR. NICHOLLS:  P04972, please.  This is an intercept from the

17     same day also featuring Stevo from the Main Staff and Mr. Beara.  The

18     same day, 1st of August.  If we go to page 2 of the English, please.  It

19     should be page 3 of the Serbian.

20        Q.   And here Stevo says to Mr. Beara, it's about the same topic,

21     talking about the prisoners in Serbia.

22             "How can there be a decision when they're registering them?"

23             "Beara:  They're taking their names, but that doesn't matter, we

24     can -- you know how, request that the ICRC escort them to us and that

25     they can be exchanged here as written in the contract.  We had no plans

Page 38726

 1     to kill them, the motherfuckers, but to exchange them."

 2             Now, as chief of intelligence for the Drina Corps during this

 3     period, can you help us understand why Beara, in trying to get prisoners

 4     back from Serbia, after we heard in the earlier intercept they had nobody

 5     to exchange, is saying, "We had no plan to kill them."  Why would he be

 6     saying that on the 1st of August based on your knowledge as a

 7     professional intelligence officer?

 8        A.   Obviously I don't know.  This is the first time I hear this.

 9        Q.   I see.  Well, as a life-long military officer and intelligence

10     chief of the Drina Corps, can you maybe put two and two together, that

11     you learned in late August or September from international organisations

12     about the murder of Srebrenica prisoners and in early August when Beara

13     and you were trying to get prisoners back from Serbia, Beara said, "Well,

14     we didn't have any plans to kill them," and there was no one to exchange?

15     Is that why, do you think, using your background in intelligence?

16        A.   I never discussed that with Beara.  He could not issue me orders.

17     I did not have to obey him.  I had to obey my superior.  And as for the

18     place where the Muslims crossed, I went there with Popovic and I followed

19     my orders in that.  I never discussed that with Beara.  I don't know what

20     his intentions were.

21        Q.   Okay.

22             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could we have P05338.  That's another intercept.

23        Q.   And it's General Krstic speaking with Popovic on the

24     2nd of August, so the next day from the ones we've just looked at, and

25     he's saying that you and Kosoric -- sorry, that Popovic and you, Kosoric,

Page 38727

 1     are to go straight to Bajina Basta and bring him back his Turks.

 2             So this is what you were talking about when you testified before

 3     how you tried to get some Muslims from Serbia to bring back, but you

 4     couldn't get any; right?

 5        A.   Right.  The authorities in Serbia would not allow anybody to go

 6     back.  Those were the orders, and they didn't.

 7        Q.   And you certainly wouldn't have taken part in this effort to get

 8     a hold of Muslims and take them prisoner, would you, if you'd known that

 9     Vujadin Popovic had taken part in massacring Muslim prisoners two weeks

10     earlier, would you?

11        A.   Had I known that, I would have refused to have carried out the

12     order.  In the army there were two orders that did not have to be carried

13     out, murder and physical damage.  Everybody had the right to turn those

14     orders down.  In my documents you can find that I did not want to carry

15     out some very simple tasks, for example, scouring the terrain.  I didn't

16     want to carry out those orders.  All I did was my own job.

17        Q.   Now, you've said a couple times here how security was separate,

18     you did your own job, et cetera, et cetera, strict delineation between

19     the security and the intel branch.  What were your relations like with

20     Popovic personally?  Were you friends with him?  Did you joke around with

21     him, or were you kind of distant professionals, or how would you describe

22     it?  Now, I'm speaking about July 1995 and the period after that.

23        A.   I joined the corps on the 15th or 16th of June.  That's when I

24     met Popovic.  That was the first time I saw him, 15 or 20 days before the

25     Srebrenica operation started.  I knew very few people in the corps.  I

Page 38728

 1     knew Krstic, Golo Pajic who hailed from the same village.  I didn't know

 2     anybody else.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Now, if you don't mind answering the question.  What were

 4     your relations with him like?  Friends, friendly, distant, what?

 5        A.   Our relationship was strictly professional.  He had his office,

 6     his premises.  I had mine.

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  I'd like to show a video-clip now.  This is

 8     65 ter 40620.

 9        Q.   This is -- you've seen this before.  This is from around

10     22nd August.  We believe it's in Borike or in Rogatica.  You testified

11     about this last time you were here.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  Stop.  We're at 00:37.3.

14        Q.   That's you; right?

15        A.   Yes.

16             MR. NICHOLLS:  Okay.  Because of the timing could we go to 1:58,

17     please, 1 minute, 58 seconds.  That's fine, 1 minute, 57.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             MR. NICHOLLS:  Stop.

20             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Zoka, where are you, man?"

21             MR. NICHOLLS:

22        Q.   Who's that?

23        A.   I can't see very well, but somebody mentioned the name Zoka, but

24     he was the security and intelligence officer in the Rogatica Brigade.  He

25     was both an intelligent -- intelligence man and a security man.  I

Page 38729

 1     believe that his name was Zoran Carkic.  I'm not sure.

 2        Q.   Correct.  Thank you.  It is Zoran Carkic.

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:  Where it stopped at 2:03.6, can we continue?

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Zoka:  I'm here, old man.

 6             "Cameraman:  You're like an actor, Zvrko.

 7             "Zoka:  A hundred per cent.

 8             "Kosoric:  Hey, Zoka, what do you have there?"

 9             MR. NICHOLLS:  Can we stop?  I think it's better if we hear the

10     sound, if there's a way to do that and just read the subtitles so we can

11     get more of a sense of what's going on?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  I think we are hearing the interpretation

13     through interpreters.

14             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yeah.  If there's a way to just follow by reading

15     and hear the sound without playing it twice, I would prefer that, so we

16     can hear how people's voices are where there --

17             JUDGE KWON:  So you'd like to follow the subtitle without hearing

18     the interpreters.

19             MR. NICHOLLS:  I would prefer or I would suggest that your

20     Chamber hear the voices, that Your Honours --

21             JUDGE KWON:  But it's related to the transcript.  Whether you

22     like those part to be reflected in the transcript.  That's the only way

23     to -- to do that.

24             MR. NICHOLLS:  I agree.  I would rather --

25             JUDGE KWON:  We can do both.

Page 38730

 1             MR. NICHOLLS:  I would rather do both, Your Honours, if you don't

 2     mind.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 4                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 5             JUDGE KWON:  So why don't we hear the interpretation first and

 6     then follow it again without interpretation, hearing the real sound.

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.  And may I just ask, Your Honours, I'm

 8     sorry, I would like to put in this whole clip, which is just a couple of

 9     minutes, but just because of -- a few minutes.  But just because of time

10     I didn't want to play it all.  If I need to play whole thing to admit it,

11     then -- I don't know if there's an -- if my friends don't object, we

12     would admit the whole clip and the transcript.

13             JUDGE KWON:  How long is it?  Why don't we play it just --

14             MR. NICHOLLS:  It's three minutes but I'm looking at the clock.

15             JUDGE KWON:  I don't have difficulty with it.  Why don't we play

16     it in its entirety.

17             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             MR. NICHOLLS:  We stopped at 00:02:43.9.

20        Q.   That's you and Vujadin Popovic; right?

21        A.   That's right.

22        Q.   And he's saying here:

23             "Come on, the two moustachioed fellows, you know like this, Zoka.

24     Come over here.  The entire OB is present.  The war criminals."

25             MR. NICHOLLS:  Let's keep playing for just a short --

Page 38731

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             MR. NICHOLLS:

 3        Q.   And there we just saw, stopping at 00:02:53.2, after saying, "The

 4     war criminals," Vujadin Popovic has his arms around you and Mr. Carkic

 5     just did the three-finger salute.  So is this an example of your strictly

 6     professional relationship with Vujadin Popovic, who you weren't friends

 7     with?

 8        A.   I saw this clip last time and now I can see that Popovic is

 9     drunk.  You can tell by the way he speaks and by the way he behaves, and

10     that was his style of behaviour.  He always joked around.

11        Q.   Okay.  But were you drunk?  Because you're also smiling and

12     standing with him and were joking with him earlier.

13        A.   No.  I know that we met there.  I was on my way from Kopaci, from

14     the Visegrad brigade.  That's where we met.  This is in Rogatica indeed.

15        Q.   Yeah.  Again, that wasn't the question.  You're being friendly

16     here with Popovic, aren't you?  This isn't a professional intel and

17     security branch meeting; right?

18        A.   Well, no comment is needed.  You can see everything.  I don't

19     know whether I was also in that condition.  I can't remember.

20        Q.   All right.  And the ironic thing is he is a war criminal, isn't

21     he, Vujadin Popovic?

22        A.   If it was proven before the Tribunal, then he is.  I have faith

23     in this Tribunal.  I trust it.

24        Q.   Now, apart from the Tribunal's findings after you heard about

25     the -- from the international organisations about the murders at the end

Page 38732

 1     of August, beginning of September, being in the Drina Corps at the same

 2     level of Vujadin Popovic, did you have any inkling before his trial that

 3     he was involved in these murders?

 4        A.   No, I didn't have an inkling, and I was really surprised.

 5     Knowing him, it was impossible for this man to have done that.  However,

 6     now I see that you've proven it, so it must be true, but he never showed

 7     any signs of having been capable of doing something like that.

 8        Q.   And having no idea that Popovic was involved in the murders until

 9     he -- until his trial, having no inkling of that, that's as true, your

10     testimony on that, as everything else you've said and said in your

11     Defence statement, right?  It's the truth, just like everything you've

12     said?

13        A.   That is right.

14             MR. NICHOLLS:  May I admit this clip, tender this clip,

15     Your Honours?

16             JUDGE KWON:  But for the record, why don't you ask the witness

17     what the abbreviation OB meant.

18             MR. NICHOLLS:

19        Q.   Could you tell us what you heard -- what OB stands for, please?

20        A.   OB means good, healthy.

21        Q.   No, the abbreviation OB for security and intelligence?

22             JUDGE KWON:  Did you hear Mr. Popovic is saying that entire OB is

23     here, war criminals.  What does OB mean?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Security organ.  But security's one

25     thing, and intelligence is another.  I don't know what he meant.  This

Page 38733

 1     man Zoran Carkic, he is subordinate to Popovic in terms of security and

 2     to me in terms of intelligence, so I don't know what he meant exactly.

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:

 4        Q.   Let me -- let me just ask one more question.  He said "war

 5     criminals."  Were you arguably a war criminal for assisting in the

 6     forcible transfer of the entire population out of the Srebrenica enclave?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, could Mr. Nicholls show

 8     where it is -- where the qualification can be found of forcible transfer.

 9     He didn't hear it from this witness, nor did we see it in a document.

10             JUDGE KWON:  No, I don't think Mr. Nicholls was based on this

11     clip.

12             MR. NICHOLLS:

13        Q.   No.  Our position is that the entire population was forcibly

14     transferred out of the enclave, and you've told about your involvement in

15     it in getting the convoy to Luka.  Aren't you also a war criminal for

16     helping transfer those people out of the enclave, forcibly transferring

17     them?

18        A.   Your Honours, I would kindly ask you, since the Prosecutor seems

19     to be suspecting we -- we shouldn't really take too much time, too much

20     of everybody's time.  The Prosecution can, if necessary, interrogate me

21     for days and then maybe they can come up with something.  Why do you

22     suspect me?  Show me some evidence.  Bring in witnesses.  Show documents.

23     I feel like I am being suspected of committing crimes.  If I am, do lock

24     me up.  How -- how come you don't understand what my role was?  Why don't

25     you produce evidence showing that I knew anything.  Show me an order of

Page 38734

 1     mine.  How -- how did I participate?  You keep attacking me.

 2             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honours, if I have time, I'd like to show one

 3     more short clip, but I know that I'm basically out of my time.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  What is that about?

 5             MR. NICHOLLS:  It's the video-clip P04490 of Mr. Kosoric and

 6     Mr. Popovic at the 10th Sabotage Detachment celebration in Vlasenica in

 7     October 1995.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue.

10             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you very much.

11             JUDGE KWON:  We'll receive this.

12             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6335, Your Honours.

14             MR. NICHOLLS:

15        Q.   Now, you've seen this before as well, sir.  This is a video of

16     the 10th Sabotage Detachment celebration at Vlasenica in October 1995.

17             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could we go to 10 minutes, 50 seconds to make

18     it -- oh, we're there.  We can play.

19                           [Video-clip played]

20             MR. NICHOLLS:

21        Q.   Do you remember being at that celebration?

22        A.   I do.

23             MR. NICHOLLS:  Okay.  If we could go to 00:13:32.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry, if we could go back to that.  Okay.  We're

Page 38735

 1     at 00:13:36.6.

 2        Q.   You correct me if I am wrong.  We see here you, Vujadin Popovic,

 3     and General Krstic at this 10th Sabotage celebration; correct?

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like the witness to

 5     identify the persons in the still rather than Mr. --

 6             MR. NICHOLLS:  This is cross-examination and I may lead.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- Nicholls.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Mr. Nicholls.

 9             MR. NICHOLLS:

10        Q.   Do you agree with me that's you, Popovic, and Krstic at the

11     10th Sab celebration?

12        A.   I see myself here, I see Krstic, but I don't see Popovic.  The

13     tall, strong guy is the Chief of Staff of the Sehovac brigade.  I don't

14     see Popovic here.

15             MR. NICHOLLS:  Okay.  Let's play it some more.

16                           [Video-clip played].

17             MR. NICHOLLS:  Stop.

18        Q.   Who is that on the right?  We're at 13:39.9.

19        A.   The one with his hands crossed.  That's Popovic.

20             MR. NICHOLLS:  Okay.  Let's play this another second.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             MR. NICHOLLS:  Stop.

23        Q.   It's a bit blurry at the moment but that's you next to Popovic;

24     right?  And we're at 13:41.9.

25        A.   Yes, that's me.

Page 38736

 1        Q.   Okay.  Now, this is October 1995.  This is even by your testimony

 2     today after you know about the murders from the international community.

 3     You're with Krstic and Popovic at the 10th Sab celebration.  Didn't you

 4     know at this time that, one, that the 10th Sabotage had taken part in

 5     mass executions, two -- well, I'll leave it at that.

 6        A.   I don't understand the question.

 7        Q.   Did you know in October 1995 from international organisations and

 8     others that the 10th Sabotage Unit had taken part in mass executions at

 9     Branjevo Farm?

10        A.   I really don't remember.  I was there, but when exactly I found

11     out, it was in the autumn, but I had nothing to do with the

12     10th Sabotage Detachment.  It's a Main Staff unit.  I don't know.

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  No further questions, Your Honour.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

15             Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very briefly, Excellencies.

17                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Let's start with the most recent things.  Within

19     whose remit is the investigation into crimes or illegal behaviour of our

20     own soldiers?

21        A.   This is done by our security service and the military police.

22        Q.   Is that in the remit of your service?

23        A.   No.

24        Q.   Do make a short pause before answering, please.

25             Did you see a document anywhere saying that there was illegal

Page 38737

 1     killing in Podrinje in July 1995?

 2        A.   No, I didn't.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  I believe that Mr. Nicholls corrected that mistake,

 4     but let us check anyway.  Do you distinguish between entourage and

 5     escort?

 6        A.   Escort something else.  He had his own escort, and his entourage

 7     included everybody -- all of us, all who had come from the corps.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Lieutenant-Colonel, do you distinguish between killed

 9     meaning murdered and killed like killed in the battle-field?

10        A.   Who -- someone was killed if they -- if there was -- if that

11     person was shot, executed, whereas killed in action is different.

12        Q.   Thank you.  From the words of General Mladic quoted to you on

13     page 10, the words that he said to the Muslims, did you conclude that

14     anybody would be illegally killed?

15        A.   No.  I couldn't believe that, because he is a professional

16     military officer.  It is clear who can decide that someone should be

17     killed.  It's only a court.  And whoever was ordered to kill these people

18     should have refused orders.  That's what I would have done.

19        Q.   Did anybody or anything warn you of illegal killings in the

20     coming days?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Thank you, Lieutenant-Colonel, for your testimony and for coming

23     here.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Well, unless my colleagues have a question for you,

25     that concludes your evidence.  On behalf of the Chamber, I'd like to

Page 38738

 1     thank you for your coming to The Hague to give it.  Now you are free to

 2     go.

 3                           [The witness withdrew]

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, while we're waiting for the next

 5     witness, I could maybe just advise you there are a couple of associated

 6     exhibits that we're not offering.  Would you be inclined to take that up

 7     now?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  The Prosecution pointed out to us correctly that

10     there were two duplicates, so 1D7890 and 1D7891 will not be offered.  In

11     addition, there were seven documents that were not translated and as a

12     result we won't be offering those documents.  And there are eight

13     documents that are partially translated and we're only offering those

14     portions which are translated, and we will conform the B/C/S to the

15     English translation so that only those portions which are translated will

16     be in the B/C/S in e-court.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we take a short break, five minutes?  Yes.

18                           --- Break taken at 11.45 a.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 11.56 a.m.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson, could you give us the exhibit -- or

21     65 ter numbers of those exhibits that you are tendering only parts of

22     them.

23             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, 1D07856, 05985, 059 --

24             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  5985 means 65 ter.

25             MR. ROBINSON:  Correct.

Page 38739

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Please continue.

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  05983, 1D078 -- 07874.  That's 1D07874.  18076,

 3     18075, 18071, 18060.  That's all.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  How about 1D7857?  I'm -- I'm referring to those

 5     exhibits that was referred to by the witness only in part, whether we

 6     should admit only those parts discussed or in its entirety.

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  I think the witness actually refers to all of the

 8     exhibits only in part to some extent, so we haven't in the past been that

 9     selective when witnesses have referred to documents, but I would say that

10     we should admit the entire document except for those which we haven't

11     provided translations.  This was a decision we made to do partial

12     translations because of the time that we had between the time we had the

13     statement and the time that the witness was going to testify.  We didn't

14     think that the language section would have time to translate the entire

15     documents so we tried to make their work easier.  But in principle, for

16     documents where there is a full translation, we would like the entire

17     document to be admitted.

18             JUDGE KWON:  It has been the Chamber's practice and the Chamber

19     is minded to follow that, which practice is that we have been admitting

20     only those parts dealt with unless there's some good cause to admit it in

21     its entirety.  So what about 1D7857 that was dealt with in paragraph 28?

22             Can I hear from you, Ms. Gustafson?

23             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Most of these documents are government sessions

24     from the time period when the witness was the prime minister.  I

25     certainly see Your Honour's desire to limit the evidence to what the

Page 38740

 1     witness discussed.  On the other hand, the witness was the prime

 2     minister.  These are the government minutes.  It's -- you know, we have

 3     no problem with the entire document going in, and we're in Your Honours'

 4     hands.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  So if the Prosecution is okay with following the

 7     Chamber's practice, we'll admit only the cover page and the portions

 8     referred to.  And the same applies to 1D7876.  So we'll admit only cover

 9     page and item 20.  And 1D7886 -- no.  Strike that.  65 ter number -- no,

10     strike it again.

11             Yes, that's it.  And the Chamber finds the following items, the

12     documents, not forming an inseparable and indispensable part of the

13     statement and thereby will not admit them as associated exhibits.  They

14     are as follows:  1D7851, referred to in para 20; 1D7880, referred to in

15     para 74; 1D7884, referred to in para 81; 65 ter number 18073, in para 81;

16     21652, referred to in paragraph 34; and 26196, referred to in

17     paragraph 31.

18             The statement can be understood without those documents.

19             So having dealt with that issue, we'll bring in the witness.

20             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, just one point, and that is that

21     1D7876 that you indicated you would just be admitting in part is actually

22     one of those that we don't have a translation for.  So we wouldn't be

23     tendering that.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Oh, thank you.  Thank you.  Probably I missed that.

25     Thank you for your notice.

Page 38741

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  I'm also having trouble finding 26196.  I'm

 2     wondering if that's admitted as -- is that -- you were referring then to

 3     1D26196, I think.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  I'll come back to that later on.

 5                           [The witness entered court]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Could the witness make the solemn declaration.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 8     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Lukic.  Please be seated and make

10     yourself comfortable --

11             THE WITNESS:  Thank you.

12                           WITNESS:  VLADIMIR LUKIC

13                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Before you commence your evidence, Mr. Lukic,

15     I must draw your attention to a certain Rule that we have here at the

16     Tribunal, that is Rule 90(E) of Rules of Procedure and Evidence.  Under

17     this Rule, you may object to answering any question from Mr. Karadzic,

18     the Prosecution, or even from the Judges if you believe that your answer

19     will incriminate you in a criminal offence.  In this context,

20     "incriminate" means saying something that might amount to an admission of

21     your guilt for a criminal offence or saying something that might provide

22     evidence that you might have committed a criminal offence.  However,

23     should you think that an answer might incriminate you and as a

24     consequence you refuse to answer the question, I must let you know that

25     the Tribunal has the power to compel you answer the question.  But in

Page 38742

 1     that situation, the Tribunal would ensure that your testimony compelled

 2     in such circumstances would not be used in any case that might be laid

 3     against you for any offence save and except the offence of giving false

 4     testimony.

 5             Do you understand what I have just told you, Mr. Lukic?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.

 8                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Professor Lukic.

10        A.   Good afternoon.

11        Q.   Did you give a statement to the Defence team?

12        A.   The Defence team.  Yes.  You mean this Defence team.  Yes.  It's

13     about 28 pages long.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D7850, please.  1D7850.  That is

15     the proper number as recorded.  Something seems wrong with e-court.

16             Yes.  Thank you.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Professor, do you see that statement of yours on the screen in

19     front of you?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Thank you.  I remind both you and myself not only to speak slowly

22     but also to make a pause between question and answer.  Did you read and

23     sign this statement?

24        A.   Yes, I read this statement and signed it.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 38743

 1             Let us show the last page for Professor Lukic to identify his

 2     signature.

 3        A.   Yes, this is my signature.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Does this statement faithfully reflect what you told

 5     the Defence team?

 6        A.   Well, I think I wasn't able to relate to you everything I know

 7     and everything I experienced, but what is shown here is my full statement

 8     and I believe that includes all essential things in connection with the

 9     events in question.

10        Q.   If I were to ask you the same questions today that were put to

11     you by my collaborators, would your answers be essentially the same as in

12     this statement?

13        A.   They would certainly be the same, because I read and signed this.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I tender this 92 ter

15     package.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Any objection, Ms. Gustafson?

17             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Yes, Your Honour.  Having heard this morning that

18     the -- that there are seven documents discussed in the statement that

19     will not be tendered due to the lack of translation, the witness's

20     discussion and comments on those documents should be redacted from the

21     statement given that the documents are no longer being offered.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Does the statement stand alone?  It cannot be

23     understood without the documents?

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Well, the parts where these documents are

25     discussed I think not.  For example --

Page 38744

 1             JUDGE KWON:  For example -- could you give me an example.

 2             MS. GUSTAFSON:  An example would be paragraph 26, which discusses

 3     1D07855, and it says:

 4             "It can be seen from item 18 that there were problems in the

 5     judiciary for a number of reasons."

 6             But that document and item 18 are not being tendered, so it's

 7     difficult to understand what the witness is speaking about without the

 8     underlying document.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  One more example.

10             MS. GUSTAFSON:  For example, paragraph 59 dealing with 1D7873.

11             "As can be seen from this document," this is in the middle of the

12     paragraph, "I continued to strive for the Executive Committee and

13     Assembly and every municipality had to take up their functions

14     completely."

15             Again we don't have the document, so the comment "as can be seen

16     from the document" doesn't work there.  The underlying document is not in

17     evidence.

18             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, we disagree, and we think that

19     the witness's comments can be understood without reference to these

20     documents.  The Prosecution has the documents translated now.  They

21     received copies last night.  The cross-examination will be continuing.

22     If they feel there's something that they want to explore about the

23     document they can do that, but we believe that this -- it would be unfair

24     to redact the passage where the witness gives substantive information.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 38745

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Gustafson, the Chamber agrees with

 2     Mr. Robinson's view, and the Chamber is of the view that the statement

 3     could be understood without the document itself, and if necessary, you

 4     can take up the issue in your cross-examination.

 5             And as to the item you indicated, pointed out, Mr. Robinson, you

 6     were correct, and I meant 1D26196.

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  And I also neglected to

 8     ask that these documents be added to our Rule 65 ter list because we

 9     didn't -- hadn't interviewed the witness at the time that that list was

10     filed.

11             JUDGE KWON:  No objection from you, Ms. Gustafson?

12             MS. GUSTAFSON:  No.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll admit the statement as well the

14     associated exhibits as we have dealt with so far.

15             Now, shall we give the -- assign the exhibit number for the

16     statement at this moment.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, this will be Exhibit D3563.  Thank

18     you.

19             JUDGE KWON:  And all the remaining documents will be assigned

20     exhibit number by the Registrar in due course.

21             Please proceed, continue, Mr. Karadzic.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'd now like to read

23     out the summary of Professor Lukic's statement in English.

24             [In English] Vladimir Lukic was born on the 7th of April, 1933,

25     in Dabar, Sanski Most municipality.  In early June 1992, Radovan Karadzic

Page 38746

 1     appointed him commissioner for the municipality of Novo Sarajevo.  From

 2     July the 1st until 19th of December, 1992, Vladimir Lukic worked as the

 3     representative of the Republika Srpska at the UNPROFOR in Sarajevo.

 4             Vladimir Lukic received many reports about crimes against Serbs

 5     in Sarajevo.  He passed on all reports and eyewitness accounts to the

 6     UNPROFOR but did not receive satisfactory responses.  Vladimir Lukic

 7     found UNPROFOR to be negatively disposed towards the Serbian side in a

 8     number of respects.  UNPROFOR was inconsistent in enforcing the ban on

 9     firing from its immediate vicinity.  It was further always assumed

10     without checking that shelling was committed by Serbs.

11             Vladimir Lukic believed that the sniping in Sarajevo was started

12     by the Muslim side and that UNPROFOR was aware of the Muslim snipers in

13     Sarajevo.  He observed that when Serbian artillery fired at a target in

14     the city, it was always a military target, although UNPROFOR would

15     nonetheless described it as a civilian target.

16             There was no organised shelling of civilians by Serbs in

17     Sarajevo.  The only possibility was that there were individual incidents

18     of retaliation that were outside of normal system of command.

19             In mid-December 1992, Vladimir Lukic was approached by

20     Radovan Karadzic to be prime minister of the new government and accepted.

21     Throughout his prime ministership, Vladimir Lukic had no problems with

22     Radovan Karadzic, with regard to his independence and the independence of

23     the government.

24             The position of the government was that all citizens of the RS,

25     regardless of ethnicity, must be guaranteed freedom of movement according

Page 38747

 1     to their freely expressed will.  This government position had been

 2     absolute support -- had the absolute support of Radovan Karadzic.  The

 3     government constantly called for the establishment of the rule of law and

 4     the protection of all citizens including refugees regardless of

 5     ethnicity.  This included ordering the ministries of interior and defence

 6     and the security service of the VRS to use all legal means to protect

 7     civilians and their property regardless of ethnicity.

 8             The electricity situation in Republika Srpska was dramatically

 9     bad, which affected all sides of society.  The Muslim side repeatedly cut

10     power supply lines.  The government discussed taking reciprocal measures

11     to prevent this but decided against it because the civilian population

12     under Muslim control would suffer as a result.  That was Government of

13     Republika Srpska.

14             The Government of Republika Srpska called for the unhindered

15     passage of humanitarian convoys to both Muslims and Croats again with the

16     absolute support of Radovan Karadzic.

17             The government tried with all its powers to prevent private and

18     illegal relocation of refugees and demanded that criminal proceedings be

19     initiated against those who were involved in such activities.  Similarly,

20     when Vladimir Lukic heard of incidents of looting of civilian convoys, he

21     called for investigation and for the perpetrators to be punished.  The

22     government generally called for everyone who had committed crimes to

23     answer for their actions regardless of the ethnicity of the perpetrator.

24     When the -- Vladimir Lukic and his colleagues, including

25     Radovan Karadzic, received a report that certain judges were being

Page 38748

 1     threatened in cases that were being conducted against Serbs, they

 2     concluded that the safety in work of these judges should be guaranteed.

 3             The government experienced significant problems with the

 4     municipalities which functioned as states within a state with significant

 5     power.  The Presidency and the government fought to centralise government

 6     in keeping with the constitution and reduce the autonomous behaviour of

 7     municipalities which adopted regulations which conflicted with the laws.

 8             And that would be short summary, and at that moment I don't have

 9     additional questions to Professor Lukic.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Mr. Lukic, as you have noted, your evidence in

11     chief in this case has been admitted in its entirety in writing, that is,

12     through your written witness statement, and now you'll be cross-examined

13     by the representative of the Office of the Prosecutor.

14             Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

15             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16                           Cross-examination by Ms. Gustafson:

17        Q.   And good afternoon, Dr. Lukic.

18        A.   Good afternoon.

19        Q.   At paragraph 4 of your statement, you explain that you were the

20     Republika Srpska representative at UNPROFOR stationed in the PTT building

21     in Sarajevo.  Who appointed you to that position?

22        A.   I was appointed to that position by the President of

23     Republika Srpska, Mr. Radovan Karadzic.

24        Q.   And you were a representative of the civilian Republika Srpska

25     authorities; is that right?

Page 38749

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And did you report to Dr. Karadzic?

 3        A.   Well, I reported to Dr. Karadzic above all others, but since

 4     communications weren't operational at all time -- at all times, we

 5     weren't able to be in contact.  I reported to other persons such as

 6     vice-presidents to Karadzic, Professor Koljevic, Ms. Plavsic, and some

 7     other individuals whom I knew and who were interested in the issues that

 8     I was dealing with.

 9        Q.   Okay.  And in your statement you said that while you were in that

10     position you received up to several hundred visitors daily of people

11     living in Sarajevo.  Were those mainly ethnic Serbs who came to visit

12     you?

13        A.   Most of them were Serbs, yes.  However, there were all other

14     ethnicities there, Jews, Muslims, Croats, et cetera.  Many of them asked

15     that I provide them with some sort of assistance, but most of them

16     actually wanted to leave Sarajevo.  You know that there were ways of

17     going out, of leaving Sarajevo, but for the Serbs and Montenegrins, it

18     was difficult to leave Sarajevo unless some additional measures were

19     applied.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Dr. Lukic, given that my time is limited, I'd like to

21     ask you to focus on the specific question I ask and try to limit your

22     answer to just that question.  And what were your tasks in relation to

23     UNPROFOR when you were stationed at the PTT building?

24        A.   I didn't have any assignments from UNPROFOR directly.  However,

25     they frequently asked that I help -- that we help the population receive

Page 38750

 1     water and power supplies and all other bare necessities.  Especially when

 2     it came to humanitarian aid, we were to make sure that the aid reach the

 3     specific points that we had agreed upon with UNPROFOR.

 4             I also have to say this:  When I arrived at Pale, I told

 5     Dr. Karadzic, or, rather, President Karadzic, what it was that I had been

 6     doing.  I would particularly speak to him about the problems related to

 7     water, electricity, and humanitarian aid.  He told me resolutely we do

 8     not have any intention of waging a war with humanitarian aid, water, or

 9     electricity that all citizens need as a bare necessity.

10        Q.   And when you were working in the PTT building, were you still

11     living in Grbavica and travelling back and forth, or did you stay -- or

12     did you live somewhere inside the city?

13        A.   No.  Those of us who were delegated to UNPROFOR lived there and

14     went home only for personal needs.

15        Q.   So you lived and worked in the PTT building.

16        A.   Yes.  We had our own offices where we slept.

17        Q.   Okay.  And how often, if ever, would you travel around the

18     Muslim-held parts of Sarajevo?

19        A.   It was only on a couple of occasions that I did that when an

20     officer of the English army made two mistakes.  Instead of going to

21     Lukavica, he actually missed a turn and drove us around town.  So that

22     was the only time when I actually was able to observe the town, save for

23     the occasions when I would be going home, that's to say, Lukavica.

24        Q.   Okay.  And I think's clear from your prior answer, but if you

25     could just make it absolutely clear.  It was not part of your job to

Page 38751

 1     carry out any investigations into any shelling or sniping incidents in

 2     Sarajevo, was it?

 3        A.   Well, yes, because I could not have been there without observing

 4     what was being shelled where, on the one hand, and on the other, I spent

 5     37 years in Sarajevo altogether, what with schooling and my job.  So I

 6     knew Sarajevo very well, and I intervened on several occasions that the

 7     Muslim forces should not be shelling in front of UNPROFOR, in front of

 8     the wire factory which was several metres away from UNPROFOR, in front of

 9     the civil engineering factory where I worked.  And let me not enumerate

10     all those places.  At least a dozen more sites that the Muslim forces

11     shelled and the shelling was quite often random because they would fire

12     from rather small lorries.  They were mortars, you see.  And you can

13     imagine how one would fire when one would actually just stop in a

14     position quickly, launch a projectile and then move away fast, and

15     normally these would be sites where it was not allowed to fire from.

16        Q.   Mr. Lukic, in your earlier answer you made clear that you lived

17     and worked in the PTT building.  You were only actually able to observe

18     the town maybe twice when someone took a wrong turn on your way back to

19     Lukavica.  So it's clear, is it not, that the only observations you could

20     make, personal observations you could make, would be observations of what

21     was happening in and around the PTT building and perhaps something you

22     may have seen on your way back to Lukavica; right?

23        A.   No.  That is not the case, because certain points such as Vraca,

24     which I crossed for -- which I crossed countless times, I was able to see

25     all these various sites that I mentioned, and everything that happened

Page 38752

 1     close to UNPROFOR I was able to observe.  Therefore it wasn't difficult

 2     for me to see what was going on because I knew the town pretty well.  I

 3     was able to see more of the town as I was crossing Vraca than if I went

 4     to the railway station with an UNPROFOR officer, if I went to Marin Dvor

 5     and back.  Then there was another occasion I went to Vase Miskina Crni

 6     and then again back in the direction of the PTT engineering, that is to

 7     say, in the direction of Lukavica.  In other words, whoever wanted to

 8     look, could not fail to see Sarajevo.  And of course, all of what I was

 9     referring to one could see with the naked eye, let alone with some sort

10     of device if you had one.

11             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you.  Your Honours, I note the time.  Thank

12     you.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Lukic, I'm informed by the VWS only now that you

14     had some concerns that you had to stay over the weekend at The Hague.

15     Given the time for cross-examination, it seems evident that we cannot

16     conclude your evidence today.

17             I take it that is the case, Ms. Gustafson.

18             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Yes.

19             JUDGE KWON:  And next week we'll resume on Tuesday, but I'm

20     confident we can conclude your evidence by Tuesday next week.  Will it be

21     okay with you, Mr. Lukic?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If that is what the Defence needs,

23     I will stay, although I do have certain reasons why I would have to

24     actually leave tomorrow.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  I appreciate your kind understanding.  Thank

Page 38753

 1     you.

 2             We'll have a break for 45 minutes and resume at 23 past 1.00.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 12.37 p.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 1.22 p.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue.

 6             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 7        Q.   Mr. -- Dr. Lukic, in your statement at paragraphs 11 and 12, you

 8     identified four locations in Sarajevo as locations where the Muslim side

 9     would fire artillery or mortars.  That was near the UNPROFOR or PTT

10     building, in front of the wire factory, the civil engineering faculty,

11     and the tunnel above the civil engineering faculty.  That tunnel you're

12     referring to, that's the Ciglana tunnel, I take it; right?

13        A.   No.  That was the tunnel leading to the hospital.  Am I supposed

14     to answer that question?

15        Q.   Yes, Dr. Lukic.  Are you talking about the state hospital?

16     There's no tunnel leading to the state hospital; right?

17        A.   There is, above the faculty of construction, and the tunnel leads

18     not to the main entrance, the south entrance.  It's just above the civil

19     engineering school.  That's where one of the entrances into the hospital

20     is.  This is where our opponents hid weapons.  They opened fire from

21     there, and then they would quickly hide in the tunnel.  Whoever left the

22     hospital could not avoid traipsing over the weapons.

23             Another thing, you said that I mentioned only four locations.  I

24     only mentioned four locations because I didn't think it necessary to

25     mention another ten from which fire was opened from Sarajevo on our

Page 38754

 1     positions, but not only on our positions but also on our settlements

 2     around Sarajevo.

 3        Q.   Okay.  This tunnel you're talking about, is it a tunnel for

 4     vehicle traffic or is it a pedestrian tunnel?

 5        A.   Both.  There are two tunnels.  I believe that are -- confusing

 6     the two.  One tunnel passes above the bypass, above the brickworks, and

 7     leads to that railway station.  This is also a tunnel, and fire was

 8     opened from it on both sides.  There is another tunnel, the tunnel that

 9     I've just referred to, at the entrance into the state hospital right

10     below the surgical department, or at least the surgical department is

11     very near.  You know I worked at the school of civil engineering which is

12     below that tunnel, below the road to -- to which the tunnel exits.

13        Q.   Okay.  At paragraph 15 of your statement you said:

14             "I saw myself on many occasions when the Serbian artillery fired

15     at a target in the city and this was always a military target."

16             Can you please identify for me all the objects in Sarajevo where

17     you saw with your own eyes Serbian artillery hit?

18        A.   Our artillery opened fire on several locations that I saw.

19     Firstly they opened fire on our opponents' artillery around those two

20     tunnels.  They also opened fire on the artillery below Buca Potok.  They

21     also opened fire on artillery positions near Standard, as well as the

22     artillery that fired from behind the buildings at Marin Dvor, also the

23     artillery that opened fire at us from the building of the Novo Sarajevo

24     municipality or near that building, and so on and so forth.

25        Q.   Okay.  And on any of those occasions, did the artillery shells

Page 38755

 1     hit their target or did you ever see those shells hit a civilian object?

 2        A.   I must say that I do not remember any shells that fell directly

 3     on civilian facilities, but I remember shells that fell close to civilian

 4     facilities, especially once the Serbian artillery was moved at a distance

 5     of 20 kilometres, which was its ultimate range, the ultimate range of the

 6     artillery, it could no longer be very precise.  So the dispersion of such

 7     mortar shells is a well-known phenomenon in artillery.  If I had

 8     ridden -- written, which I didn't do because I did not feel a need to

 9     record every direct hit, I would be able to tell you that I'm sure that

10     there were direct hits on a civilian facility here and there.  I was

11     trained as an artillery officer, as a reserve artillery officer in

12     land -- in the land army, and I know how shells scatters -- scatter on

13     the ground.  And I know that there's no artilleryman who can make a

14     direct hits in the fashion of a sniper.  It's just impossible.

15        Q.   Dr. Lukic, I asked you a very simple question about what you saw,

16     and then you went into a long answer about principles of artillery.  I

17     just don't have sufficient time for you to answer my questions in such a

18     manner, and I'd like to ask you again to focus on the questions that I

19     ask.

20             Now, you have said that the only possibility that you would allow

21     in connection with alleged Serbian shelling of Sarajevo was that there

22     were individual incidents of retaliation outside the normal system of

23     command.  So I take it your position is that there are only two

24     possibilities, the Serb side was either firing at a military target or

25     there were individual acts of retaliation.  That's right, isn't it?

Page 38756

 1        A.   First and foremost, I should say that as a rule our artillery

 2     targeted military targets.  I have no doubts about that.  At the end of

 3     the day this can be confirmed by the number of facilities which were not

 4     targeted, although Serbian targets had been targeted from there.

 5     Buca Potok was targeted because there was the enemy artillery there, and

 6     they opened fire on us from there.  I saw shells that pounded Buca Potok

 7     because there were several artillery assets there from which fire had

 8     been opened on us.  Whether a house was hit or not, I don't know, but

 9     there probably were.  But I know of a case when our civilian or a young

10     guy came to tell us that his family had been chased out from their

11     apartment in Kosevo Brdo, and he asked our artilleryman to open fire on

12     his former apartment.  This artilleryman didn't want to do that, but I

13     wonder whether every artilleryman refused such a request.  I suppose not.

14     On the other hand, there is no artillery that will hit all the targets

15     without hitting something else in the vicinity.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Could I have 65 ter 11076, please.

18        Q.   Dr. Lukic, this is an UNPROFOR damage assessment of the citizens

19     hospital sent to the senior military observer in Sarajevo, and it's

20     copied to Dr. Bakir Nakas, the citizens hospital director, and we know

21     Dr. Nakas was the director of the state hospital.  This is in English, so

22     I will read the relevant parts to you.

23             The damage assessment was conducted on the 31st of December,

24     1992, so just after you finished your stint in Sarajevo.  And if we could

25     go to page 3, at the bottom of the first paragraph it says:

Page 38757

 1             "Although not exhaustive due to quantity of AAA," which I believe

 2     refers to anti-aircraft fire, "and small arms, the following major

 3     impacts have occurred on the main building south side:

 4             "4th floor, one tank round which destroyed the burns operating

 5     theatre.

 6             "5th floor, three artillery or tank rounds.

 7             "6th floor, one 122-millimetre artillery plus multiple

 8     20-millimetre anti-aircraft.

 9             "7th floor, one tank round and multiple 20-millimetre

10     anti-aircraft.

11             "8th floor, multiple 20-millimetre anti-aircraft.

12             "9th floor, three tank rounds with a well-aimed 5 metre spacing.

13             "10th floor, one 155-millimetre artillery and multiple

14     20-millimetre anti-aircraft."

15             And on the next page at the top it describes damage to the annex

16     building.  It talks about multiple impacts from anti-aircraft and heavy

17     machine-gun fire.  And it says:

18             "The northern side has received two 122-millimetre artillery

19     impacts and the roof has sustained damage by a 128-millimetre rocket from

20     a multiple-launch rocket system."

21             Now, Dr. Lukic, do you consider the state hospital to be a

22     military target, or is all of -- all of this fire the result of

23     individual acts of retaliation?

24        A.   First of all, I have my doubts about that report.  I have my

25     reasons for that.  I received seven to ten doctors who worked at the

Page 38758

 1     state hospital.  One of them was one of the chief plastic surgeons and so

 2     on and so forth.  Therefore, I'm not saying that a shell didn't fall on

 3     the hospital.  Nobody can claim that.  However, for so many shells to

 4     have landed on the hospital, I can't accept that.  I saw those doctors

 5     who informed me, obviously they didn't inform me about every single

 6     shell.  However, if -- I absolutely do not agree with such a massive

 7     shelling of the hospital.  Let me not mention the names of those doctors.

 8     I'd rather not do that.

 9             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I tender this document.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll admit.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6336, Your Honours.

13             MS. GUSTAFSON:

14        Q.   Just before we move on to the next topic, Dr. Lukic, I'm just

15     going to ask you about one specific shelling incident that the Chamber

16     heard evidence about, which is from the 12th of July, 19 -- sorry, I'm

17     not -- my apologies, that's not from your time.  I'll just move on.

18             Now, at paragraph 27 of your statement you talked about your

19     function as prime minister, and you said:

20             "I never had problems with Dr. Karadzic with regard to my

21     independence or the independence of the government."

22             And at paragraph 33, you refer to item 45 of P3129.

23             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could call that up, please.  And this is an

24     extract from the March -- 20th of March, 1993, government session which

25     established a five-member government personnel commission.  And this is

Page 38759

 1     on page 12 of the English and 17 of the B/C/S.

 2        Q.   And you can see under item 45, a five-member personnel commission

 3     was established and the fifth member is a representative of the SDS

 4     Main Board.  And in your statement you said it was logical that easily

 5     the biggest party should have its representative in the personnel

 6     commission of the RS government.

 7             What was the reaction of the SDS party to the government creating

 8     its own personnel commission and providing for SDS representation on it?

 9     Do you recall that?

10        A.   Yes, I absolutely remember that.  I don't see anything illogical

11     in that.  The president of the commission was my vice-president, the

12     second member of the commission was my second vice-president, and my

13     third minister was the third member, my fourth minister, and the minister

14     of the interior was also a member.  And it was only logical for the

15     biggest party which rose to defend its people, which organised its

16     people, had one of the party men as members.  The same thing happens

17     today.  It's still a custom in our parts even today, so I don't see

18     anything unusual or illogical there.

19        Q.   Sorry, Dr. Lukic.  That wasn't my question.  My question was

20     about the reaction of the SDS to the government setting up this

21     commission.  How did the SDS react when you informed them that you had

22     established this commission and that they were welcome to have a

23     representative in that commission?  Do you recall that?

24        A.   I remember, but I don't remember any reactions.  Nothing special

25     happened that I could highlight today.  Let me see who attended the

Page 38760

 1     session.  Can we go one page back, or can you show me the part where the

 2     attendees were recorded?

 3        Q.   Dr. Lukic, this is an associated exhibit in your statement.  I'm

 4     not asking you about this session.  I'm asking you about the SDS's

 5     reaction, so I'm going to move on.

 6             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could have 65 ter 18011, please.

 7        Q.   Now, you said you don't recall any reaction and "nothing special

 8     happened that I could highlight today."  Well, here is a letter from the

 9     chairman of the SDS Executive Committee from the 12th of April, 1993, so

10     a few weeks after the session we just looked at.  It's addressed to you.

11     And the subject is:  "Reply to the information re the establishment of

12     the government personnel commission."  And it refers to a letter sent by

13     you informing the SDS about the establishment of the commission and

14     asking for one representative of the Main Board to join it.  And then it

15     says:

16             "Regarding the increasing number of attempts to deny the

17     undeniable political facts and taking unauthorised authorisations on all

18     levels of conducting the policy, we feel obligated to inform you and warn

19     you about the established rules of political conduct."

20             And then under number 1, it refers to the SDS being the party in

21     power.  Under number 2, it notes that the National Assembly is 7/8ths SDS

22     representatives, and your government has been voted and elected by the

23     SDS deputies.  And then it says:

24             "You ought to be the government of the Serbian Democratic Party

25     and you are the executive authority of the Assembly with the majority of

Page 38761

 1     seats of the Serbian Democratic Party, you implement the policy of that

 2     party."

 3             And number 4, which is the next page, it says:

 4             "As the party in power, we conduct the personnel policy, and

 5     without the personnel commission of the party on all levels from the

 6     municipality to the republic, no appointments will be possible without

 7     our approval."

 8             And under number 5:

 9             "I am not disputing that the government is thinking about

10     improving the personnel policy, but I am disputing that it can have a

11     commission which would appoint, verify, and discharge or give approvals.

12     That is why we shall not send our member to your commission, because you

13     ought to be our government and appoint our personnel for whom the

14     approval will be given by the Serbian Democratic Party."

15             Now, the SDS party was, in fact, incensed at your efforts to

16     create a personnel commission because, as this letter states, the SDS is

17     the party in power.  It conducts the personnel policy, and it is the task

18     of the government to implement that policy; right?

19        A.   I must admit that you have jogged my memory and reminded me of

20     something that we at the government didn't agree.  All the government

21     members were members of the SDS, so I -- I thought then and I still think

22     that a government that is elected by the Assembly is entitled to dealing

23     with certain issues, especially when it comes to its own purview of work,

24     but it is also true that there were some members of the Executive Council

25     and Executive Board that thought differently.  But I must say that in

Page 38762

 1     conversations with Dr. Karadzic, all that was ironed out, and it was all

 2     reduced to a normal situation.  There were no grave accusations as one

 3     might conclude from reading this.

 4        Q.   Well, whether or not there were any grave accusations, the

 5     government, after receiving this letter, did change its approach and

 6     deferred to the SDS on personnel matters and sought SDS approval of

 7     personnel matters, didn't it?

 8        A.   Not always.

 9             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we go to 65 ter 18012, and I would tender this

10     document.

11             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll receive it.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6337, Your Honours.

14             MS. GUSTAFSON:

15        Q.   Now, this is a letter from the government secretary, Mr. Lakic,

16     to the Executive Committee of the SDS, dated the 29th of August, 1993,

17     and it asks for the SDS's opinion regarding the staff nominated to the

18     positions within state organs, public enterprises, and enterprises of

19     particular significance for the republic.  And then it lists a number of

20     proposals, 1 to 18.  And on the next page under numbers 19 to 21, it

21     seeks proposals from the SDS for certain management boards.

22             And if we could go now to the response, which is 65 ter 18013.

23     This is the response from the SDS, dated the 28th of December, 1993,

24     signed by Dr. Karadzic, and the subject is:  "Approval of appointments,"

25     and it refers to this previous letter and says:  "We hereby inform you

Page 38763

 1     that the Serbian Democratic Party personnel commission approves," and

 2     then there are two approvals for two people, and then it instructs

 3     which -- that six people shall be appointed members of the pension and

 4     disability fund administrative board.

 5             Now, this exchange of letters shows, Dr. Lukic, that the

 6     government can propose candidates for functions in state organs and

 7     public enterprises, but it is the SDS that ultimately decides; right?

 8        A.   That is indeed so if you take it that President Karadzic is

 9     functioning completely in the service of the government rather than in

10     the service of the president of the republic.  His role as the president

11     of the republic is, of course, the highest when it comes to the

12     personnel.  Now, regardless of whether the proposing party is the

13     government or the SDS board.

14        Q.   Well, the header on this letter is the RS Serbian Democratic

15     Party.  The -- it's -- Dr. Karadzic states that the approval has been

16     given by the personnel commission, and it is stamped with the Serbian

17     Democratic Party stamp.  So this letter from Dr. Karadzic is a reflection

18     of approval at the highest -- from the highest levels of the SDS party,

19     isn't it?

20        A.   Certainly.  President Karadzic is president of the SDS and

21     President of Republika Srpska, and that is absolutely the highest level.

22     I have to say there were never any disagreements, at least not

23     significant ones, when it came to the president of the republic.  In the

24     majority of the cases, he gave his approval to our proposals.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 38764

 1             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to 65 ter 18014, and I would

 2     tender those two documents we just looked at.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Two documents.  We admitted the previous one.  Yes.

 4     Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

 5             MS. GUSTAFSON:  There was one we admitted and then there was this

 6     exchange of letters that we've just looked at, so there are two more.

 7     They're 18012 and 18013.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection, Mr. President.  I note that the

 9     English translation of this 18013 is showing up as access denied on our

10     e-court, but hopefully it will be fixed.

11             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I'm informed it should be released now, and our

12     apologies for that.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll admit them.  Shall we give the numbers.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibits P6338 and P6339, Your Honours.

15             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could have 65 ter 18014.

16        Q.   And this is a letter from March 1994 from the -- your

17     chef de cabinet, Zdravko Miovcic to the president of the SDS Executive

18     Board and there are some preliminaries, and then it says:

19             "We suggest that SDS personnel board considers the possibility of

20     issuing the approval for Radivoje Pandurevic to carry out the duties of

21     assistant minister of finance."

22             Now, here your office is asking permission from the SDS personnel

23     board to appoint this individual to the position of assistant minister of

24     finance; right?

25        A.   Right.

Page 38765

 1             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I tender this document.

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6340, Your Honours.

 5             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could go to P1379 now.

 6        Q.   This is the 34th Republika Srpska Assembly session, and it's

 7     referenced in your statement at paragraph 62, and that's where you refer

 8     to a speech by Dr. Karadzic where he talks about not having the prime

 9     minister in his pocket, and you refer to this as an example of your

10     independence.

11             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to page 168 of the English and 175

12     of the B/C/S.

13        Q.   You don't mention anywhere in your statement what you said at

14     this session, Dr. Lukic, so I'd like to ask you a question or two about

15     that.  And this is at the bottom of the B/C/S and the top of the English.

16     This is Mirko Mijatovic speaking, and he says:

17             "I wish to know why isn't the commission for electing and

18     appointing getting other materials.  I personally have problems in

19     Trebinje, for it has been three to four months since we have sent

20     proposals for electing judges, and we were explained that those papers

21     were lost somewhere in the ministry."

22             And at the bottom of his speech, which is on the next page in the

23     B/C/S, he says:

24             "I wish to ask Minister Rosic, do you know if the acts which were

25     sent from down there were arrived?  Were they sent in the legally regular

Page 38766

 1     manner," et cetera.

 2             And then you reply and you say:

 3             "We have several objections that the propositions of certain

 4     municipalities, parties and companies are being withheld for a long time.

 5     However, I can say that the government is not keeping any acts, but is

 6     sending them to the party.  From the moment the party started working,

 7     and immediately after they come from the party, they are being sent to

 8     the first government session to come."

 9             And then you say:

10             "I really do not know why certain proposals did not pass

11     through."

12             Now, what you were saying here, Dr. Lukic, is that -- you're

13     explaining the government's delay in acting on certain municipality

14     proposals, and the reason for that delay was that these proposals were

15     being sent to the SDS and approved by the -- and had to be approved by

16     the SDS before they could be addressed at a government session.  That's

17     right, isn't it?

18        A.   You know, you're asking me about something that is written here,

19     whether I said it and why I said it.  Now, I probably did say it, because

20     it's written here, but when was it?  I have to tell you that as for the

21     correspondents -- well, the names mentioned are familiar to me.  But what

22     was said on that occasion or what was not said, at any rate, what I see

23     is that you -- your drift is the SDS.  I wasn't in the SDS when

24     Dr. Karadzic appointed me prime minister designate.  Therefore, in my

25     firm view, the SDS was not against the government or Republika Srpska.

Page 38767

 1     It asked that its views be taken into consideration and that it, too,

 2     participate in this ...

 3        Q.   Sorry, but you're not answering my question.  My question was for

 4     you to confirm that what you said in this speech was in effect the reason

 5     for the delay in certain -- in government action on certain municipality

 6     proposals was because those proposals had to be sent first to the SDS for

 7     their approval before they could be addressed at a government session.

 8     That's what you're saying here; right?

 9        A.   Not always, and not at any cost.  I will tell you that some of

10     the SDS members from Banja Luka sent a proposal to the government for

11     23 managers or directors to be removed, and we told them that they had to

12     first discuss the matter at the Municipal Assembly and that only then

13     could we remove them from office.  And what came back to us as a result

14     of that was only a request for one of these directors to be removed.  So

15     you seem to be driving hard against the SDS, targeting the SDS far too

16     harshly as if the SDS had come from a different state.

17        Q.   I'd like to move on to another topic now.

18             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could have P3106, and this is the

19     exhibit discussed at paragraph 19.  It's the 61st government session on

20     the 21st of December, 1992.

21        Q.   And this is the government session, Dr. Lukic, where the

22     leadership of the government was handed over from Branko Djeric to you.

23     And in your statement you said with respect to this session:

24             "I insisted that all property acquired by illegal means must be

25     returned to its owners regardless of ethnicity."

Page 38768

 1             And if we could go to page 4 of this document.  And this is in

 2     the middle of the page.  And what you actually said as reflected in these

 3     minutes, and this is the third paragraph from the bottom in the English:

 4             "All measures should be taken in order to return illegally

 5     obtained properties to their owners, i.e., to government bodies if

 6     ownership cannot be proven."

 7             And, in fact, Dr. Lukic, throughout your tenure as prime

 8     minister, you repeated emphasized the importance of collecting illegally

 9     obtained property at the republic level and placing it in the state

10     coffers.  So in other words, your concern about stolen property was not

11     to return it to their owners but to collect it and use it to fund the

12     state; right?

13        A.   God forbid.  As a man of the profession that I belong to, I could

14     never espouse a principle which would take someone's property away from

15     him.  I am aware of the fact that property can be acquired by way of

16     three means and whoever is an owner of property could have come by that

17     property only through these three ways.  I have always advocated such

18     views in the government, when talking to Dr. Karadzic and many others,

19     and have always in this been supported.

20             In this civil war of ours, there was only the case of temporarily

21     seizing the property of someone so that it can be preserved during the

22     war, but as for this, this sort of behaviour, wherever I appeared as a

23     member of the government, this was all rejected.  For instance, I came to

24     Banja Luka and there was a man who took for himself somebody else's house

25     and then also took away somebody else's flat for his daughter and another

Page 38769

 1     for his son.  None of the municipal bodies approved this, but, you see,

 2     people were doing this contrary to what that -- the official position

 3     was.

 4             You see, I do come from that profession.  I know what property

 5     means and how it is acquired and how it can be protected.  There were

 6     such times where we said that nobody can be allowed to stay out in the

 7     street where there is rain or snow, even if we have to take a flat

 8     belonging to a Serb, Jew, Croat, Muslim, et cetera, but not in such a way

 9     so as to drive these people out of their properties but merely to save

10     others, to save their lives.  And now we see this policy that was present

11     from day one, that very many people, our citizens, regardless of their

12     ethnicity, did repossess their property.

13             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Okay.  Let's look at P3129, which is an

14     associated exhibit, at paragraph 33.  This is the 66th government session

15     from the 20th of March 1993.

16        Q.   On the first page you can see under the agenda, item 2 is report

17     on the financing problems in the Army of Republika Srpska.

18             And if we could go to page 3 in the English and page 5 in the

19     B/C/S.

20             This is the discussion under that item of financing problems in

21     the VRS, and it says that:

22             "Concrete measures were proposed at the meeting," this is about

23     halfway down the paragraph, "with emphasis on the fact that," and this is

24     at the next page in the English, "attention must be paid to the

25     consistent implementation of the adopted regulations, particularly those

Page 38770

 1     concerning war booty and illegally obtained property."

 2             And then it says:

 3             "The government assessed the focus of activities and measures

 4     should be primarily on the following."

 5             And further down the page in the English and on page 6 in the

 6     B/C/S under number 4, it says:

 7             "Place all war booty from material assets to money and foreign

 8     currency considered socially owned property under the control of the

 9     state.  Material assets and money seized from war profiteers and money

10     earned in unlawful and illegal ways is to be placed under the control of

11     the state and used for the defence of the republic."

12             Dr. Lukic, these minutes reflect the efforts of your government

13     to collect unlawfully obtained money and property and use it to finance

14     the army; right?

15        A.   A moment ago I felt that you did not say quite properly that we

16     had national wealth such as forests, et cetera, and that we transformed

17     it into state property.

18             Secondly, we tried that all the items considered to be war booty

19     be placed at the disposal of the general public good, especially for the

20     defence of the country, the army, et cetera.

21             When it comes to unlawfully obtained property, misappropriated,

22     stolen, et cetera, I have to tell you that the struggle on that front is

23     still going on and is far from over.  So this is something that is still

24     pending.

25        Q.   Well, Dr. Lukic, I'm going to press you a little on this because

Page 38771

 1     these minutes don't reflect any kind of struggle -- please listen to my

 2     question.

 3        A.   I didn't --

 4        Q.   These minutes do not reflect any kind of struggle against

 5     unlawfully obtaining property.  They say quite clearly that unlawfully

 6     obtained property is to be placed under the control of the state and used

 7     for the defence of the republic.  In other words, this isn't about

 8     countering crime, this is about benefiting from crime, isn't it?

 9        A.   This wasn't something the government did at all.  It had its

10     bodies, and it assigned tasks to them.  Accordingly, one knew exactly

11     which of these assignments were given to which of these bodies.

12             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to P3141 now.  This is an

13     associated exhibit discussed at paragraph 61, and they are the minutes of

14     the 82nd government session from September and October 1993, and we can

15     see that Dr. Karadzic and other members of the state leadership were in

16     attendance.  And if we could go to page 12 of the English and page 13 of

17     the B/C/S.

18        Q.   Under item 42, number 2, it says:

19             "It was concluded that all goods treated as war booty and which

20     was obtained illegally which is presently in the possession of the

21     Ministry of the Interior shall be given to the republican commodity

22     reserves."

23             And two government ministers are tasked with implementing this

24     decision.

25             This is another reflection of the government's efforts to collect

Page 38772

 1     for its own benefit unlawfully acquired property, isn't it?

 2        A.   No.  Firstly, the property was acquired regularly and lawfully by

 3     the government in our view and was handed over to those bodies that would

 4     use it in the best possible way for the purposes of Republika Srpska.

 5        Q.   Well, whether or not you viewed your acquisition and use of this

 6     property as lawful and appropriate, the property was initially obtained

 7     illegally.  That's what these minutes state; right?  This was stolen

 8     property, wasn't it?

 9        A.   Why would it constitute a mistake that the government should make

10     sure that the unlawfully acquired property is given over for the purposes

11     of the general good?

12        Q.   Okay.  Now, let me ask you about the war profiteering that

13     occurred in the government prior to yours.  Now, it's right, isn't it,

14     that both Mico Stanisic and Momcilo Mandic, two ministers in the

15     government before yours, were involved in the appropriation and sale of

16     Golf vehicles from the TAS factory; right?

17        A.   I can tell you that there were stories of that kind, but they

18     were never proven.  To put it simply, those bodies that investigated such

19     stories did not collect enough hard evidence in order to prosecute

20     anybody.

21             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could have 65 ter 25027, please.

22        Q.   And this document is a report from August 1996 from the

23     Main Staff counter-intelligence group reporting on a conversation with

24     you on the 1st of August, 1996.

25             Oh, I see we're still waiting for the B/C/S.

Page 38773

 1             While we're waiting, Dr. Lukic, maybe I can start by asking you

 2     some general questions.  The first part of this report relates that you

 3     had attacked the VRS for essentially betraying the Krajina.  Do you

 4     recall expressing the view around this time that you were angry at the

 5     VRS for its failure to prevent the fall of the RSK?

 6        A.   I cannot read this, nor can I see when I stated anything like

 7     that.  Of course I am angry because of the fall of the RSK, but this

 8     whole text isn't like my way of communicating at all.

 9        Q.   Yes.  And I apologise.  We're having some troubles getting the

10     B/C/S on the screen, so I'll try to make my questions clear nevertheless.

11             This relates to a conversation with you on the 1st of August,

12     1996, and this would have been with an intelligence operative of the VRS,

13     although you may not have been aware of that person's status.  It's

14     unclear.

15             And on page 2, in the second full paragraph, it says that you

16     were cautioned by the person you were speaking to that you were also a

17     member of the Supreme Command and knew everything that was taking place

18     and had never prevented war profiteering and robbery, and that the

19     commission investigating the Golf affair never even started working.  You

20     are reported to have replied:

21             "I was going to help Koljevic because he was the commission's

22     president, but the services failed to do their part of the job.  I know

23     it was on Radovan's orders that Mico Stanisic was selling the Golfs, that

24     Jovo Tintor and Mirko Krajisnik were selling, that Momo Mandic was

25     selling and now he is the director of the Sarajevska Banka in Belgrade.

Page 38774

 1     But again I can -- this was never seen before, the army fleeing in front

 2     of the people."

 3             Now, that's right, isn't it, on -- in August of 1996, you stated

 4     that Momo Mandic and Mico Stanisic, among others, were selling the Golfs

 5     and that they were doing so on Radovan's orders; right?

 6        A.   I think that you took the year 1996, which is not relevant for

 7     some relations as at the time when I was prime minister.  That's one

 8     thing.  And I remember exactly -- I remember my very words, that it is

 9     unheard in the history of the Serbian people that the army fled before

10     the people.  And I have nothing to add or subtract there.  And as for the

11     Golfs and other things, well, you mentioned Stanisic, Mandic, Tintor and

12     others, it is true that they were involved in some dealings with all

13     that, and it's true that the leaders of the republic knew about some

14     things, but any other stories remain unproven.  So it cannot be the

15     object of discussion in the situation.

16             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I tender this document.

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Objection, Mr. President.  I believe that this

18     issue regarding the Golfs, number one, is irrelevant and when it involves

19     Dr. Karadzic it becomes prejudicial; and secondly, I don't believe that

20     the witness has confirmed anything about his conversation with this

21     operative other than the fact that he recalled saying that he'd never

22     seen the army fleeing in front of the people, which I don't think is

23     significant for the Prosecution as far as admission of this document.

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Your Honours, I disagree on both counts.  The

25     witness has essentially confirmed the contents of the document, not just

Page 38775

 1     the actions of the VRS, but he said:

 2             "And as for the Golfs and other things, well, you mentioned

 3     Stanisic, Mandic, Tintor and others, it is true that they were involved

 4     in some dealings with all that, and it is true that the leaders of the

 5     republic knew about some things, but ... other stories remain unproven."

 6             So it's certainly a confirmation of the essence of the

 7     conversation, and in terms of the relevance, I think it's highly relevant

 8     that the minister of justice and minister of the interior in 1992 were

 9     involved in war profiteering activities and certainly with the -- and

10     certainly any knowledge or an acquiescence on the part of the accused

11     would be relevant given the Defence position that this was a state

12     struggling to impose the rule of law in chaotic circumstances.  So I

13     don't think the objection is well founded.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  Let's say it were true that

16     Dr. Karadzic was somehow involved in Golfs or some thefts of Golfs, which

17     he denies, but let's say that that were true.  How would that be relevant

18     to what he's being prosecuted for here, a joint criminal enterprise to

19     expel Muslims from Serb-controlled areas.  And it's highly prejudicial

20     to -- to introduce evidence of this kind of theft or dishonesty in a

21     trial.  And secondly, the document, the portion of the document that the

22     Prosecution wants to use, that somehow this was on Dr. Karadzic's orders,

23     is not confirmed at all by the witness.  So I don't think that this is

24     either a topic or a document that is relevant, and it shouldn't be

25     admitted.

Page 38776

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I contribute to the

 2     clarification?  Where was it established that these people sold all these

 3     for their own needs?  They are ministers and the state has the right sell

 4     its own property.  How was the assertion that they were war profiteers

 5     founded?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I add something?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  No.  We are dealing with admissibility.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  By majority, Judge Baird dissenting, the Chamber

10     will admit it.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6341, Your Honours.

12             MS. GUSTAFSON:

13        Q.   Dr. Lukic, I'd like to move on to another topic, and the next

14     document I'll be using is P783.  At paragraph 5 of your statement, you

15     say that in 1991, Professor Koljevic invited you to give Dr. Karadzic

16     your opinion on the best route for linking up the Krajina with Semberija,

17     and that you told Dr. Karadzic that the only link was through the valley

18     along the Sava and that the road across Majevica was only a last resort.

19             When in 1991 was this meeting you had with Dr. Karadzic, roughly?

20        A.   It was in the autumn of 1991.  I said that the best way that

21     leads through a valley was the one along the right bank of the Sava, and

22     that is the truth.  That's when I first met Mr. Karadzic.

23             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Okay.  Could we zoom in on the top part of the

24     map.  That's good.

25        Q.   Now, Dr. Lukic, the usher will assist you with the pen, and I'd

Page 38777

 1     like you to please draw that link between Krajina and Semberija through

 2     the Sava River valley that you proposed to Dr. Karadzic in 1991.

 3        A.   This is it.  This isn't very precise.  I apologise.  But along

 4     the right bank of the Sava, of course wherever you could go through.  And

 5     this is the right way in all weather conditions, and it is the easiest to

 6     defend.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Now, you just mentioned that it is the easiest to defend,

 8     which brings me to my next question, which is that in 1991 when you had

 9     this conversation, of course these areas were all linked because they

10     were all within the Bosnian entity, which was at that time a whole

11     entity, indeed part of Yugoslavia.  So when you were proposing a route

12     for linking these areas in 1991, this must have been a proposal as to how

13     these entities could be linked together in some future separate Bosnian

14     Serb entity.  Is that right?

15        A.   No, because this was not considered at the time.  The only

16     consideration was for the large number of inhabitants of Bosanska Krajina

17     to be linked by an appropriate route for economic, medical, and other

18     reasons.  You know very well that the -- in Banja Luka, 12 babies died

19     because there wasn't enough oxygen.  It couldn't be brought there because

20     that route had been cut.  It was a way of linking the west and the east

21     of what's today Republika Srpska, and further on to Serbia, in order to

22     make possible supply, the supply of such material as was in short supply

23     in 1991.

24        Q.   Dr. Lukic --

25        A.   I don't know why you're asking this question given that this was

Page 38778

 1     in late 1991 and our enemies already had their units established, and we

 2     have -- we had already seen how events would unfold.

 3        Q.   Now, you talked about babies dying in Banja Luka with -- because

 4     there wasn't enough oxygen and it couldn't be brought there.  That was

 5     something that happened during the war when those areas were less

 6     accessible.  But in 1991, when you suggested this route to Dr. Karadzic,

 7     there was no problem traversing from the Krajina to Semberija; right?

 8     There were roads connecting all these locations.  The only reason you

 9     could be proposing a link between these areas is if you were

10     contemplating a separate Serb entity; right?

11        A.   No.  It was to too early for such contemplations.  You probably

12     don't know that in the inner part of Posavina there was a total

13     disruption of communication between the west and the east of today's

14     Republika Srpska or Bosnia-Herzegovina.  That problem with communication

15     had started much earlier, and it made us all think about how one day we

16     can solve that communication problem and be linked to the others.  And I

17     believe that it is clear to you that since the Croatian side and the

18     Muslim side had established their forces much earlier, we were already --

19     we already had fears that this communication problem would cost us many

20     lives.

21             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Okay.  Could we go to P3474, please.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Were you going to tender that marked map?

23             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I was, and then it disappeared, so I wasn't going

24     to bother with it.

25             JUDGE KWON:  I think it's kept, albeit without signature.

Page 38779

 1             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If it's kept, then I would like to tender it,

 2     please.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6342, Your Honours.

 5             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 6        Q.   Okay.  This, Dr. Lukic, is an article from February 1992 from

 7     "Derventski List," and it's titled "Bridge to the Krajinas."  And on the

 8     first page, the first paragraph on the very upper left-hand side in the

 9     B/C/S --

10             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think it's legible --

11             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Yeah, we'll have to zoom in.

12             JUDGE KWON:  -- for Mr. Lukic.

13             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Zoom in quite a bit on the very upper left-hand

14     corner.

15             And it's the first paragraph of text after the bolded text at the

16     top.  And it's -- reports on a meeting held in Doboj by the SDS Executive

17     Committee -- sorry, a meeting about the SDS Executive Committee reporting

18     on a Doboj meeting attended by representatives of the autonomous

19     districts in the area as well as Radovan Karadzic, Momcilo Krajisnik, and

20     Vojislav Maksimovic.

21             And if we could go to the top of the second column in B/C/S and

22     the next page in the English.  It says that serious consideration was

23     given to the necessity to establish communication and geographical links,

24     and it talks about Northern Bosnia being a bridge and a natural line

25     between the two Krajinas, the Knin and the Bosanska Krajina, and

Page 38780

 1     Semberija and Serbia on the other side.

 2             And then in the third paragraph on that page it says:

 3             "The part of the Republic of Croatia settled by Serbian people

 4     exactly opposite Northern Bosnia along the Okucani-Virovitica line

 5     constitutes an almost identical bridge between areas containing Croatian

 6     populations.  For this reason, guided by these ethnic and geographical

 7     facts, in Doboj the idea of transferring the Moslavina Serbs to Northern

 8     Bosnia and transferring the Croats from Northern Bosnia to the areas

 9     along the Okucani-Virovitica line in exchange was publicly advanced for

10     the first time."

11        Q.   Now, this proposal of transferring Croats from Northern Bosnia to

12     Croatia in exchange for Serbs from Croatia, this relates to that same

13     area that you proposed to Dr. Karadzic as a link between Krajina and

14     Semberija; right?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.  This can't be

16     allowed.  Why call this a proposal?  If anybody mentioned this then -- or

17     if anybody proposed this, then we -- Ms. Gustafson should say if it was

18     accepted.  So it was not proposed.  It was merely mentioned.

19             MS. GUSTAFSON:

20        Q.   Can you answer the question, Dr. Lukic?  This area they're

21     talking about, an idea of transferring --

22        A.   First of all, I haven't read this before.  I didn't know about

23     this article.  But if you want to speak about the connection between

24     eastern and Western Bosnia again, or the Krajinas and Semberija, or maybe

25     the eastern part of the RS and Serbia, that's what I have already

Page 38781

 1     explained.  This will remain unchanged.  And as for this resettling, I

 2     have never read about this before, and nobody made such a proposal to me

 3     ever.

 4             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Okay.  Could we go to 65 ter 24995, please.

 5        Q.   And, Dr. Lukic, the document that's about to appear, that I see

 6     has appeared now, is an interview with you in the magazine "Srpska

 7     Vojska," the official VRS publication, dated the 20th of May, 1993.  Do

 8     you recall giving an interview to "Srpska Vojska" around this time?

 9        A.   If it says here, I probably did, but I really don't remember.

10        Q.   Okay.  On the first page, in the second paragraph, and this is

11     towards the bottom of the far left-hand column in the B/C/S, you were

12     asked about the Vance-Owen Plan, and you say:

13             "The Vance-Owen maps are so bad for the Serbian people that it is

14     really very difficult to talk about them.  They are unacceptable

15     primarily from the point of departure that they have split up the Serbian

16     region.  Through the Posavina province which they given to the Croats,

17     they have cut us off from Krajina and turned it into Nagorno-Karabakh.

18     This is a cul-de-sac.  The corridor is practically just a controlled

19     road."

20             Now, here you are criticising the Vance-Owen Plan because it did

21     not provide for a sufficiently wide corridor link between the Krajina and

22     other Serb-held territories; right?

23        A.   I must tell you one thing here.  Your Honours, I was against the

24     Vance-Owen Plan.  At the Assembly at Jahorina of which you certainly

25     know, two years ago I undertook to study the Vance-Owen Plan again, and

Page 38782

 1     the result was that -- my repeated conclusion that I was right.  I would

 2     be against the Vance-Owen Plan even today.  So there's no point in asking

 3     me anything about it.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Well, I'd like to ask you one more thing about it which

 5     is --

 6        A.   I apologise, but now that you were reading, I noticed that I

 7     indeed stated this.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

 9             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could go to page 2 of the B/C/S and the

10     middle column towards the bottom -- sorry, page 2 of the English and the

11     middle column towards the bottom on page 1 of the B/C/S.  My apologies.

12        Q.   Now, again you're continuing your criticism of the

13     Vance-Owen Plan, and in the second paragraph in the English and in the

14     second-to-last paragraph in that column in the B/C/S, you say that the

15     functioning of the government in the mixed provinces is set up in such a

16     way as to drive the Serbs away from these provinces.  And then you say:

17             "At least 40 per cent of the Serbs would be under alien rule.

18     For example, the surrounds of Sarajevo, Birac, Posavina, the

19     municipalities of Krupa na Uni, Novi Grad, Prijedor, and Sanski Most,

20     where the Serbs are in the majority and where they have more than 50

21     per cent of the territory would be under Muslim rule."

22             Now, you refer to a number territories as being where the Serbs

23     are in the majority including Krupa na Uni.  And before the war,

24     Krupa na Uni, which was then called Bosanska Krupa, was about 74 per cent

25     Muslim; right?

Page 38783

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Krupa na Uni is not the same as

 2     Bosanska Krupa.  Krupa na Uni is on the right of the River Una and

 3     Bosanska Krupa is on the left bank.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Gentlemen, this is correct, because

 5     on the right bank the Serbs are the majority, and on the left bank the

 6     Muslims are the majority.  All of us, at least, know that.  And I spoke

 7     about that.

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 9        Q.   Okay.  And Prijedor, another area where you say the Serbs were in

10     the majority, before the war there were slightly --

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   -- more -- all right.  This is in 1993.  But before the war,

13     there were slightly more Muslims than Serbs in Prijedor; right?  They

14     were the largest ethnic group in Prijedor.

15        A.   I don't have the information in front of me.  However, given the

16     number of Serbs who were killed on Mount Kozara, below Mount Kozara, and

17     in Prijedor, I'm sure that there was a disbalance after that.  And now

18     that you have mentioned Prijedor, please bear with me while I tell you

19     that 23.430 children were taken to Jasenovac from the Kozara region.  Of

20     course there should have been such a majority in Prijedor.

21        Q.   So in this article, you're claiming that Prijedor should belong

22     to the Serbs because it is now, after a dramatic demographic

23     transformation from 1992 to 1993, it is now majority Serb; right?  That's

24     what you're saying here?

25        A.   After the crimes that were committed in 1941 --

Page 38784

 1        Q.   Dr. Lukic --

 2        A.   -- it was a given that Prijedor had to be in Serbian hands.  And

 3     then you said something else.  When you asked me what would happen with

 4     the Serbs, please do not ask me that.  Look at the situation today.  Look

 5     at what is happening with Serbs in Sarajevo and all will become clear to

 6     the Trial Chamber and to you, Madam Prosecutor, and you will see, without

 7     me mentioning the exact figures for Sarajevo, that what I have told you

 8     and what I said then I would readily repeat it today.

 9             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I note the time.  I tender this document.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll receive it.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6343, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE KWON:  We'll continue on Tuesday at 9.00, and, Mr. Lukic,

14     can I advise you that -- not to -- you are not supposed to discuss with

15     anybody else about your --

16             THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]

17             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I don't think he heard you.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  I'd like to advise you, Dr. Lukic, not to

19     discuss with anybody else about your testimony while you are giving

20     evidence.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  The hearing is adjourned.

23                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.49 p.m.,

24                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 28th day

25                           of May, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.