1 Thursday, 13 June 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone.
7 Good morning, Mr. Harvey, yes.
8 MR. HARVEY: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours. May I
9 introduce Nina Mileva, who is just behind the pillar here, who has been
10 with my team for the last six months, is from Skopje, Macedonia, and is
11 studying at the University of Amsterdam and is a very impressive linguist
12 assisting us on our B/C/S translations and work. Thank you.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
14 Yes, Ms. McKenna, please continue.
15 MS. McKENNA: Thank you, Mr. President.
16 WITNESS: JOVAN IVANOVIC [Resumed]
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 Cross-examination by Ms. McKenna: [Continued]
19 Q. Good morning, Mr. Ivanovic.
20 A. [No interpretation]
21 Q. Now, in paragraph 25 of your statement you said that:
22 "I can say with a high degree of certainty that during that
23 period of chaos, the local Serbian leadership had almost no contact with
24 the leadership at Pale."
25 However, in your Grujic testimony, you said that you weren't sure
1 what sort of road communications existed between Zvornik and Pale between
2 April and July of that year. Do you stand by that testimony today, that
3 you weren't sure what type of road communications there were during that
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.
6 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry, yes, Mr. Karadzic? Objection?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. This is a linguistic matter.
8 What was said in Belgrade is the same as what this witness said. He
9 didn't say, "I'm not sure whether there were any," but he said, "I'm not
10 sure that there were any." Now, in the question the meaning was shifted.
11 It may be best to show him the text from Belgrade.
12 MS. McKENNA: Certainly. Could we have 65 ter number 25093.
13 Q. And this, Mr. Ivanovic, is the text from your testimony in
15 MS. McKENNA: And I'd like to see page 37 of the English and
16 page 26 of the B/C/S.
17 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, the discussion - and this is at the bottom of the
18 page in the English version - is you're asked by the Presiding Judge:
19 "Was it possible -- were there roads that could go to Pale prior
20 to Karisik arriving?"
21 And you say:
22 "I don't know -- in the first days, everyone was focusing on
24 And you're asked:
25 "Not in the first days, later on, in May and June," I think we
1 need to turn to the next page, and you said, "they're all early days.
2 Well, I don't know what road communications were like. I'm not sure.
3 I'm not quite sure."
4 And then further on you say:
5 "Again, I don't know. I don't know what sort of road
6 communications there were."
7 THE ACCUSED: Could we see the Serbian? Could we see the Serbian
8 page, please.
9 MS. McKENNA: I believe it's page 26 of the Serbian.
10 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, have you had a chance to review your previous
12 A. Yes.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I kindly ask for the relevant page
14 to be displayed, the page in Serbian.
15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Ivanovic, did you read the part, relevant part,
16 from the transcript?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not now.
18 JUDGE KWON: Oh.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did sometime before, but I don't
20 really know what the question is.
21 JUDGE KWON: Let's show the part. I cannot help you,
22 Mr. Karadzic, here, but --
23 MS. McKENNA: Perhaps Mr. Karadzic could direct us to the correct
24 part. I believe it's on page 26.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, that answer is not on this
1 page. I either need a hard copy or we must display the different pages.
2 Perhaps we can print out a couple of pages. I think it may be page 25.
3 Could we get the previous page back. Oh, yes, it's at the top of the
4 page. The answer to the previous question must be the first one on this
6 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
7 Then could you put your question again, Ms. McKenna.
8 MS. McKENNA: Certainly.
9 Q. If you've had a chance to review your testimony, I'll ask you
10 whether you stand by your testimony in the Grujic case that you don't
11 know what type of road communications there were in the period between --
12 sorry, road communications there were between Zvornik and Pale in the
13 period between April and July 1992?
14 A. Well, yes, and now I can confirm that I don't know exactly what
15 kind of road communications there were, but during the first months, I
16 never, ever went to Pale because I wasn't sure I'd be safe.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please see the previous
18 page, page 24?
19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, you can take up this issue in your
21 Let's carry on.
22 MS. McKENNA: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 Q. And yesterday, as you explained, after you were beaten up, you
24 didn't participate in -- in fact, you shied away from the municipality,
25 the army, and the paramilitaries, and that was at T 39868. So,
1 Mr. Ivanovic, you're not really in a position to testify about the
2 communications or the contact that the local Serbian leadership had with
3 the Pale leadership following the breakout of the war, are you?
4 A. I didn't hear the interpretation of this last bit well, but you
5 know --
6 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Then I will ask Ms. McKenna to
7 repeat her question, in particular the last part.
8 MS. McKENNA:
9 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, do you agree that you are not in a position to
10 testify about the contact that the local Serbian leadership had with the
11 Pale leadership following the breakout of the war?
12 A. Yes, I can speak about that. I was not in the ranks of the
13 authorities. I was a man of the economy. I had some contacts with
14 people, but not on the basis of political power.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 MS. McKENNA: Your Honour, I note that I'm coming to the end of
17 my time. I will ask for perhaps 15 minutes. I understand that it's in
18 excess of what I was given, but I would like to cover some additional
19 topics that are relevant.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue, Ms. McKenna.
22 MS. McKENNA: Thank you, Your Honours.
23 Q. In paragraph 28 you -- of your statement, you say that it was
24 only after the paramilitaries had been arrested at the end of July that
25 many of the crimes committed by these paramilitaries were discovered.
1 Now, I'd like to talk about the awareness of crime being committed that
2 you spoke about in your previous statements and in your testimony in the
3 Grujic case. And again I'd like you to focus on the questions I'm
4 asking, keep your answers short, and answer yes or no where possible.
5 These are all matters that you've previously testified about or given a
6 statement about.
7 Firstly I'd like to talk about the Karakaj technical school.
8 Mr. Ivanovic, you knew at the time that there were detentions at the
9 Karakaj technical school, didn't you?
10 A. At what time? You said "at the time," but I'm not sure which
11 time you mean.
12 Q. You knew during the period between April and July 1992, so prior
13 to the paramilitaries being discovered or being arrested, you knew that
14 there were detentions at Karakaj technical school?
15 A. I heard something about that, but nothing specific, nothing
16 certain. But people talked, the people I worked with at the factory.
17 Q. Well, you heard or you knew that the detainees included men from
18 Djulici, some former employees of your factory, didn't you?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And you heard of the killings that took place at Karakaj
21 technical school two or three days after they occurred, didn't you?
22 A. I'm not sure. I heard of them but with what delay, I don't know.
23 Q. Well, do you accept that it was in -- a matter of a number of
24 days that you heard about them?
25 A. I do not know.
1 MS. McKENNA: Could we please see again Mr. Ivanovic's testimony
2 in the Grujic case, and this time I'd like to look at page 23 of the
3 English and page 16 to 17 of the B/C/S.
4 Q. And, Mr. Ivanovic, with reference to the villagers from Djulici
5 you said:
6 "It is known that men were taken to the school, to the high
7 school in Karakaj, while women and children went to Tuzla, I guess."
8 And you were asked:
9 "When did you hear this, after how many days did you hear this?"
10 And you said:
11 "Well, I do not know exactly, but it was during this period. Was
12 it two or three days after those events, I do not know."
13 And your -- and you're asked when they were killed and then you
14 heard about it, and you said:
16 And you said:
17 "This was simply the word on the street. People spoke only about
19 So do you accept, as you testified previously, that shortly after
20 the killings took place you heard of them?
21 A. Yes, yes. The questions are much like the ones you're asking me
22 now. I said I didn't know a couple of days, two, three days,
23 thereabouts, and my answers now are the same as they were then. Yeah,
24 I'm not sure how many days elapsed, two, three, five, but it was those
25 days immediately after the events.
1 Q. Thank you. And people were saying that 700 to 800 men were held
2 there and killed there. Isn't that what they were saying at the time?
3 A. No, nobody mentioned exact numbers then. Nobody mentioned 700 to
4 800 people. Only later on I learned from the media about the number of
5 people and that's how I came up with that number. Nobody knew how many
6 people had been killed in that period of time. It's all hearsay. I
7 don't really have real information about it. I never went near that
8 school. I steered clear of all these crimes. I was afraid of that.
9 That's nothing for normal people. These are abnormal things. I don't
10 know how to explain that to you. I said already God forbid that you find
11 yourself in such circumstances because only then would you really
12 understand. There was a war and things were far from normal. They were
13 out of control, especially in such a religious and ethnic war as went on
15 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ivanovic. Again, I'm going to ask you to focus
16 quite specifically on the questions and -- but -- and I'd like to focus
17 on just what your knowledge was or what you heard at the time.
18 Let's talk about Celopek Dom Kulture. Again, you heard at the
19 time about the detentions in Celopek Dom Kulture, didn't you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you heard that the detainees were from Divici, from Djulici,
22 and from Zvornik; correct?
23 A. I'm not really sure that I knew they were from Djulici because I
24 think the word was that those from Djulici were being detained at
25 Karakaj, whereas at Celopek there were people from Divici. That's my
1 memory now anyway. I don't quite remember what exactly I said before.
2 There may have been people from Djulici, though. I can't remember
3 exactly. I don't know that --
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that some people were there.
6 I was passing by that place. Some guys were keeping guard. I never saw
7 the detainees themselves, though, they were inside. But it was on the
8 way -- on my way to work and back and that's all.
9 Q. But you heard at the time about the mistreatment and killings
10 that were taking place there?
11 A. Yes. I heard some stories. There was talk about some bad guys
12 going in there, beating people up, mistreating them. I don't know,
13 possibly even killing people, but nothing specific. Yeah, people talked.
14 Q. And people also talked about the fact that there were killings in
15 Gero's slaughter-house, didn't they?
16 A. I heard of that later, but not while that was going on. You can
17 believe me that even today I don't know where that slaughter-house is.
18 It isn't a place I know. But later, at a later time, I heard of that
19 slaughter-house too. It's a slaughter-house where during the
20 Second World War many Serbs were killed and this was some sort of
21 vengeance. I don't know much about that slaughter-house, though, but as
22 I said, later on I heard that there was some killings there although
23 nothing specific.
24 Q. Okay. Well, I'd like to move now to your knowledge of the events
25 in July 1995. At paragraph 31 of your statement you talked about the
1 fighting that was occurring in the Zvornik municipality and you say you
2 heard that a large number of Muslim soldiers had died in the fighting.
3 Now, in your previous interview with the OTP on the 13th of October,
4 2000, which was recorded on tape, you gave more details about what you
5 heard at the time in relation to Muslims being killed in your area. So
6 I'm going to ask you to confirm some of these details.
7 So is it correct that you heard stories about buses of people
8 being brought through villages in your area with their hands behind their
9 neck and directed to schools in Rocevic and Pilica?
10 A. Yes, I heard stories. Sometimes I even saw some buses that were
11 going to Batkovici. Some people said that some were in Bijeljina
12 municipality, a place I never saw, and that they were taking these
13 detainees there. I don't know where they had come from. And as for
14 schools and detainees, yeah, people talked, where I lived in my village,
15 that Muslims were being taken there and that there had been some
16 killings. Yes, there were stories about that and I heard those stories.
17 Q. And you heard that the people taken to those schools were taken
18 and killed, as you've said, for instance, in gravel pits, in Kozluk, and
19 in Pilica school itself; is that correct?
20 A. I'm not sure at the school at Pilica itself. From what I heard,
21 the people weren't killed there but taken to some Dom Kulture as it was
22 called, but it wasn't really that. It was more of a co-op facility, as
23 the communists had built earlier for agricultural co-operatives and that
24 place up there was a school, I don't remember exactly which place you
1 Q. I'm just going to read a passage from your previous testimony to
2 refresh your memory.
3 MS. McKENNA: And for the parties' reference this is
4 65 ter 25214, page 13.
5 Q. And you said:
6 "I lived through -- I lived through those two hard months. I
7 heard terrible stories about killings. These stories were circulating at
8 the time. That there were some killings committed in school in Pilica,
9 some people killed on those pit holes, pits by the Drina River, that's
10 what I heard. It was a secret when those bodies were buried, because it
11 became the subject of interest for all various kinds of international
13 Does that refresh your memory as to what you heard about the
14 killings at the school in Pilica?
15 A. Yes, yes, at the time I thought it was at the school, but it
16 wasn't really. It was at the co-operative building and that's what I
17 learned later. But it's not a big difference, the distance between the
18 two was a kilometre or two. They weren't really at the school there, or
19 rather, they were but for a short period of time and then they were moved
20 to that co-operative building because the school is probably too small, I
22 Q. Well, do you agree that the killings that happened in your area,
23 in and around your village, in Kozluk and in Pilica, were public
24 knowledge at the time?
25 A. The killings didn't take place in my village but in another, but
1 doesn't matter. I understand. Public knowledge, I don't know [as
2 interpreted], but the people who lived near to these places simply saw
3 what was going on and that how stories spread. You can't hide anything
4 from the Serbian people. The Serbs speak about all sorts of things, what
5 they're supposed to talk about and what not. And after a couple of years
6 you can certainly learn the truth from the Serbian people.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It wasn't correctly recorded in
10 line 23. [In English] "I understand. Public knowledge, I don't know."
11 [Interpretation] He didn't say he didn't know but he said it was not
12 public knowledge.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, even now I said it was not
14 public knowledge.
15 MS. McKENNA: Could we --
16 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. At the end of your answer,
17 Mr. Ivanovic, you said this, I quote:
18 "You can't hide anything from the Serbian people. The Serbs
19 speak about all sorts of things, what they are supposed to talk about and
20 what not. And after a couple of years, you can certainly learn the truth
21 from the Serbian people."
22 I don't follow what they are supposed to talk about and what not.
23 Could you expand?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if two Serbs quarrel, then
25 rest assured that they will try to lie. One will try to lie about the
1 other one. Yesterday there was a question put by the Prosecutor as to
2 what I stated about Brano Grujic, when it was mentioned in the
3 newspapers, Sky News, et cetera. At that moment we were not on good
4 terms so there was sort of a bit of teasing involved, so I tried to take
5 "revenge," and that's why I said yesterday, okay, I apologise to
6 Brano Grujic, I haven't read that, I haven't heard that. I don't know
7 whether you understand that now.
8 You know what you asked me now about Srebrenica, you know what,
9 what was crystallised there was this story about Srebrenica, that one --
10 I don't know. There was a number of people who had surrendered and who
11 were locked up in these facilities and a very large number who had not
12 surrendered and who went on towards Muslim-held territory and who were
13 fighting along the way. And in that fighting, if that's what you're
14 asking me, a lot of people got killed, a lot of Muslims got killed, a lot
15 of Serbs got killed too, especially young men from my village. There
16 were many casualties and one day there were three funerals. So that's
17 the assumption.
18 That's what I heard, that had everybody surrendered, nobody would
19 have been killed. But in this fighting, a lot of Serbs got killed and
20 then some bad guys from the Serb side took their revenge against these
21 people. The Serb people never did that in history. The Serb people are
22 a freedom-loving people and that is something that the Serbs there want
23 the most, that this Tribunal or world justice establish -- oh, I am
24 sorry. We, the local Serb population there and the Serb people in
25 Republika Srpska in general, we would want it to be established who it
1 was that committed these killings.
2 If I spoke fast, the Serb people in Republika Srpska and the Serb
3 people in general are a freedom-loving people and in history they never
4 committed any crimes, and that is why we care about it being established
5 what actually happened during those days after the fall of Srebrenica.
6 Just another thing, if I may say something as a member of the
7 Serb people. I would like to ask this Tribunal to shed light on the
8 killing of Serb civilians in Sarajevo. They were killed there and
9 tortured and the number of fatalities the same like Muslims in
10 Srebrenica, and Serbs are bitter because nobody was prosecuted for that,
11 for what happened in Sarajevo.
12 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Ivanovic, I'm not sure if I followed you in full
13 when you said, "If two Serbs quarrel, they will try to lie."
14 So with respect to Srebrenica, what is lie and what is truth?
15 Could you clarify, Mr. Ivanovic?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, look, perhaps you did not
17 understand me very well then. I wasn't talking about any kind of lies.
18 I mean, what I found out, that is to say, I was not there directly, I
19 heard about all of this, but over all these years, if it is important
20 what these people there are saying -- I mean I cannot talk about things
21 that people are talking about that I hadn't heard of. I can only talk
22 about what I heard of. It's what I said. A certain number surrendered
23 and part of these people lost their lives, how many I don't know. But a
24 considerable number did not surrender. They were fighting. They
25 continued fighting, lots of them lost their lives, lots of Serbs lost
1 their lives, and then when these others got killed and then their nearest
2 and dearest also got killed, then they took revenge against those who had
3 been detained.
4 Let me not repeat this, this is inappropriate, but it did happen.
5 Who did this and why? Again, I can just convey what I've already said.
6 The man that you are trying here, our president, Mr. Karadzic, did not do
7 that. That is 101 per cent certain. I have a technical education. You
8 cannot say that. You can always say 100 per cent sure. So we are
9 100 per cent sure. He did not order that. We know all the efforts that
10 he made, everything that he did, et cetera. So this happened. It would
11 be a good thing, not only for Mr. Karadzic, but for all of us in
12 Republika Srpska to establish exactly who it was that ordered this and so
13 on. Even these international conspiracies are mentioned and so on. I
14 don't know what the truth is. I saw these documentaries coming from
15 here, from the West, and they refer to these international interferences.
16 JUDGE KWON: Back to you, Ms. McKenna.
17 MS. McKENNA: Thank you, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Ivanovic.
19 MS. McKENNA: I have one very brief topic for which I would like
20 to move into closed session.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Could the Chamber move into private session.
22 [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of Chamber]
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we are in private session, Ms. McKenna.
24 MS. McKENNA: Thank you.
25 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, as we've seen, the account of events that you gave
1 in your statement to the Defence differs in some significant aspects from
2 the statements that you've given previously to the Office of the
3 Prosecutor. Now, after you spoke to the Prosecution previously, rumours
4 spread in Zvornik that you had spoken to them and you had given away --
5 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. But what's the reason for the
6 private session?
7 MS. McKENNA: It will become apparent, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE KWON: All right.
9 MS. McKENNA: I believe.
10 Q. After you'd spoken to the Prosecution previously, rumours spread
11 in Zvornik that you had spoken to them and given away some information
12 about some people that you were not supposed to. Isn't that correct?
13 A. No, that is absolutely not correct.
14 MS. McKENNA: Could we please see 65 ter 25117.
15 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, this is your statement of March 2002.
16 MS. McKENNA: And I'm interested in page 11 of the English and
17 page 16 of the B/C/S.
18 Q. And in the final paragraph of your statement you say:
19 "For the time being I'm not willing to testify because of my
20 family and my security concerns, but ICTY can use my statement as
21 evidence. After I spoke to ICTY investigators last year, the rumours
22 spread in town that I talked to the investigators and gave away some
23 information about some people that I was not supposed to."
24 So can you confirm that that is what you stated to the
25 investigators? You will see your initials on that page.
1 A. Yes, I did say that but I have to explain why I said that. I had
2 some conflicts with some policemen there on the Drina, they were Mafia,
3 not police. I know that now; I didn't know it then. I was afraid of
4 those people. It was in that context. So it's not in the context of
5 what you were asking about roughly or what you were intimating.
6 Q. In Ivanovic, I put it to you that it's in your interest to
7 testify publicly now, giving an account of events that is favourable to
8 Mr. Karadzic.
9 A. Yes, I understand, but I don't know what you're asking me.
10 Q. I'm asking you whether it will assist your position to be seen to
11 be testifying publicly, giving an account of events that is favourable to
12 the Defence in this case?
13 A. No, absolutely. I never asked for protection. Whenever I
14 testified, I always speak publicly. I was never afraid, ever, in my life
15 of what I state. I said last time too. For five or six hours these
16 investigators who were putting questions to me, they're so boring, they
17 keep asking you things and then I say five times that I don't know
18 something and then the sixth time I probably say something I'm not
19 supposed to say. I'm a technologist, I'm not a lawyer. And then you --
20 well, for the most part I simply couldn't read this anymore and I just
21 sign it because then you have to spend another three hours reading all of
22 it. You know, I never could take that kind of thing. I couldn't take
23 lawyers. I don't like this system of work and so on. I like being
24 efficient, practical. That's it. I have no reason to hide anything or I
25 don't need any kind of protection. As far as I'm concerned, you don't
1 have to draw any kind of blinds or curtains or whatever.
2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ivanovic.
3 JUDGE KWON: I still don't follow why we had to be in private
4 session. The statement is in public?
5 MS. McKENNA: That's true. I'm sorry, Your Honour. It was out
6 of an abundance of caution for the security of the witness, in fact.
7 JUDGE KWON: So shall we go -- and so Mr. --
8 MS. McKENNA: We would have no --
9 JUDGE KWON: So, Mr. Ivanovic, you have no difficulty with
10 lifting the confidentiality of the conversation that you just had with
11 the Prosecutor? Put otherwise, do you have any problem with making
12 public your previous conversation with the -- with Ms. McKenna?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it should be accessible to the
14 public. Everything I said should be made accessible to the public,
15 everything I said yesterday and today.
16 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
17 We go back to open session.
18 [Open session]
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
20 MS. McKENNA:
21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Ivanovic.
22 MS. McKENNA: Your Honours, I have no further questions for this
24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Ms. McKenna.
25 Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellency. Good
2 morning, Your Excellencies. Good morning to all.
3 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
4 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Ivanovic.
5 A. Good morning.
6 Q. Please, let us remember to pause between questions and answers,
7 and I'll start with the things that you said just now.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So could we please call up P6403.
9 Could we please have that in e-court, P, Prosecution number, 6403. And
10 then could I have page 16, or rather, 17. 17.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. You were asked, Mr. Ivanovic --
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 16 in the text or 17 -- no,
14 this is the 16. Well, now the next one -- just a moment, please.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. About 100 persons, et cetera, that's what is here. You were
17 asked whether people knew or did not know, whether this was accessible to
18 the public --
19 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Please wait until we have the
20 relevant English page as well.
21 Do you have the page number?
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, unfortunately, but it was
23 called up by Ms. McKenna. Page 16 in Serbian and right after that
24 page 17. I think it's 24 in English. Yes, that's it. Now could we have
25 the next page in both languages, please.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, this is what I'm interested in. Could you read
3 your second answer from the top, "Let me tell you ..." et cetera?
4 A. I can.
5 "Well, let me tell you, these things were not done EPP or
6 publicly. I assume all of that was done in some secret way, that is to
7 say, really, when this happened, nobody knew about it."
8 That is probably concerning those killings for something.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Before time passes by. For record I
11 hereby confirm again that the audio/video part and the transcript of the
12 private session should be lifted, to be public.
13 Yes, please continue.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what EPP means?
17 A. Well, literally it stands for economic propaganda programme. Let
18 me just read this once again.
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Commercials on television.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was not done publicly. You
21 know, it's not that somebody was bragging about that. Well, you know,
22 EPP, when you really want everybody to know about something, you know,
23 marketing and things, then I said I assumed that all of this was done in
24 some secret way and that no one knew about that, how it happened, where
25 it happened, and so on, except for these people who actually did it, of
1 course. Like any secret operation, if you will.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Thank you. Is that your position today as well?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Thank you. Now let us look at page 24. You were asked about
6 whether you knew that there were no communications and whether you knew
7 or did not know about the existence of communications. This is a bit
8 complicated, so let us take a look at page 24 in Serbian.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 24 in Serbian, the next page
10 in Serbian. The bottom of the page.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. The Presiding Judge is asking you about these policemen, who
13 commanded them in Zvornik, these policemen. Do you see that towards the
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Page 37 in English. And he's asking you who commanded these
17 policemen and you say possibly this Pantelic and so on. Then the
18 Presiding Judge says:
19 "Is there anyone above him there?"
20 And you say:
21 "Believe me, I don't know. There was no one, I think. I might
22 be wrong, but at the time there was no -- further on towards, I don't
23 know, Pale or" --
24 And the President of the Chamber says:
25 "There wasn't?"
1 And you say:
2 "I think there wasn't. I don't know when Karisik's police came
3 to Zvornik, but when that police came to Zvornik, then some sort of order
4 was actually installed ..."
5 MS. McKENNA: Your Honour, I'm going to object at this point.
6 I'm not clear how the issue of who was in command of the policemen in
7 Zvornik arose from the cross-examination.
8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. Ivanovic is answering
10 here that he did not know whether there was any communication towards
11 Pale, he doesn't know of its existence, and that is a question of
12 linguistic nuance. And that was raised in the cross-examination. As a
13 matter of fact, this page was called up, 23, 24.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer?
15 JUDGE KWON: No, but this is not related to you as such. But how
16 the current question is related to the communication thing?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, in the cross-examination the
18 question was raised, and this page was even called up, as if Mr. Ivanovic
19 had said that he had not known whether there had been communication or
20 not. And I'm saying this is a question of linguistic nuance. He said,
21 "I didn't know that it existed. I don't think there was any but I may be
22 mistaken," it's page 5, line 1.
23 JUDGE KWON: But what -- but your question related to who, as to
24 who commanded these policemen. How is that question related to the
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, please take a look
2 at what the President of the Chamber is asking him, whether there was
3 someone above them, above these local commanders. And then it gets to
4 this question of whether there was any communication with the centre. I
5 see here, Presiding Judge:
6 "And is there anyone above him there?"
7 And then Mr. Ivanovic says that:
8 "Maybe I'm" --
9 JUDGE KWON: Let's find the passage first. Where is it?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Last third, or rather, from the
11 middle of the page. [In English] "Presiding Judge: And who commanded
12 him? Is there anyone there above him?"
13 Witness Jovan Ivanovic:
14 "Believe me there was no one. I believe I might be wrong but at
15 that time there was none" -- oh, my God. This is -- [Interpretation]
16 This is a mistranslation, a total mistranslation in English.
17 JUDGE KWON: No, no, but how is that question arising from the
18 issue of communication? Where does that -- the communication issue
19 appear, Ms. McKenna, what page?
20 MS. McKENNA: The communication issue --
21 JUDGE KWON: Is this on this page?
22 MS. McKENNA: It's on this page but the question was --
23 JUDGE KWON: Where is it?
24 MS. McKENNA: It's at the very bottom. Mr. Ivanovic was asked:
25 "Was it possible -- were there roads that could go to this Pale
1 place prior to Karisik arriving?"
2 And it continues, the discussion continues about the roads.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
4 MS. McKENNA: I would also, while I'm on my feet, object to
5 Mr. Karadzic reading tracts of the witness's previous evidence to him, as
6 that is clearly leading.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, please move on to another topic. The
9 Chamber agrees with Ms. McKenna's observation.
10 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President. I might be missing
11 something but -- or maybe the Chamber's missing something, and it's
12 difficult when we don't know the language what Dr. Karadzic is trying to
13 convey to us --
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I'm fine with him dealing with the language
16 MR. ROBINSON: That's what he's been dealing with.
17 JUDGE KWON: To come back to that issue, not this part.
18 MR. ROBINSON: It's unfortunate this part was mixed with the part
19 communication towards Pale. This business about commanding was -- the
20 context was presented in connection with communication towards Pale --
21 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. You can explain to us in the absence
22 of the witness.
23 MR. ROBINSON: I think it's better if Dr. Karadzic just goes on
24 and asks him another question, but if you give him the latitude to
25 explore this, I think he would be able to do that.
1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Ivanovic, if you could excuse yourself for some
3 [The witness stands down]
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In the meantime --
5 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm just talking about the
8 JUDGE KWON: Now, Mr. Karadzic, you can explain how these issues
9 are interrelated and ...
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, Ms. McKenna called
11 up this page to prove that, at some point in time, Mr. Ivanovic made a
12 different statement in terms of communication between Zvornik and Pale.
13 The translation into English is completely wrong. He did not say "there
14 was no one." He said "there was none." [In English] Concerning the
16 [Interpretation] And it's linked to this. The Presiding Judge
17 there is asking who was above them? The one above them is in Pale and
18 that is how --
19 JUDGE KWON: No, let's go on. Where did he say "there is none"?
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is where it is. The
21 Presiding Judge says:
22 "And is there anyone above him there?"
23 And then his answer that follows that and then he says there
24 was -- [In English] "There was no one." "There didn't exist" should be
25 translated, that "there didn't exist." "I think I may be wrong, but in
1 that time there was no existing any further" --
2 JUDGE KWON: No, just a second --
3 THE ACCUSED: -- towards Pale.
4 JUDGE KWON: I found that location. But it reads like this:
5 "And who commands him? Is there anyone there above him?
6 "I don't know. Believe me. There was no one. I believe I might
7 be wrong but at the time there was none."
8 But how is this passage related to the communication issue which
9 Ms. McKenna raised?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Because whoever would be above this
11 local police would be in Pale, and he didn't say "there was no one." He
12 used the feminine "it did not exist," meaning there was no communication.
13 Because this one who would be above would have to be in Pale.
14 JUDGE KWON: I don't follow. You're saying that he didn't say
15 "there was no one," what do you mean? He said "there was no one," but
16 you say he didn't say "there was no one."
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, "nije postojala,"
18 that means that something that is in the feminine had not existed. And
19 the translation there says "there was no one," "there was nobody." And
20 that's not true. And then he says:
21 "I don't think it existed."
22 JUDGE KWON: What was the question for that answer? "Who
23 commands him? Is there anyone there above him?"
24 That was the question. And according to you then, the answer
1 "It didn't exist."
2 So it means that there was no one who commanded him. I don't
3 know what --
4 THE ACCUSED: No, no, towards Pale. There was no towards Pale,
5 towards Pale.
6 JUDGE KWON: I beg your pardon. So could you read out the
7 Serbian passage slowly. Where is it in the B/C/S part?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The last third.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, if you could read it out aloud.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Presiding Judge says:
11 "All right. Who commands them?
12 "Ivanovic: Who, the police?
13 "The Presiding Judge: These policemen, that senior cadre in
15 "Ivanovic: It is possible that that Pantelic person was it
17 "Presiding Judge: And who commands him, is there anyone there
18 above him?"
19 "Ivanovic: Believe me, I don't know. It did not exist, I think.
20 I might be wrong, but there at that time there was no -- further on,
21 towards, I don't know, Pale or ..."
22 "Presiding Judge: There wasn't?"
23 "Ivanovic: I think it didn't exist ..." and so on.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I see a translation issue here. The Chamber
1 finds it may be related to the method of communication at the time.
2 We'll allow the question to be continued.
3 Shall we bring in the witness.
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, where should we begin again. What is your
6 question for the witness, Mr. Karadzic?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wanted to ask the witness to read
8 the second-last answer and to tell us what it was that did not exist
9 towards Pale.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. What is the gist of the answer?
12 A. I understand the question. The gist of this answer is that there
13 was no -- in the days of chaos and when the paramilitaries were engaging
14 in atrocities, realistically speaking there could be no co-ordination
15 with the leadership in Pale. First and foremost, I have in mind
16 Mr. Karadzic, Mr. Krajisnik, and their closest associates. There was no
17 electronic communication, the lines were down. We did have some
18 connection with Serbia locally, but Bosnia as a whole did not, and the
19 roads were as they were. So I understand the question and I responsibly
20 claim that in Zvornik we were a state within state. Whatever we did was
21 done by the local people, and unfortunately these paramilitaries and
22 volunteers, whatever you call them, they came for different reasons, for
23 looting, hatred, and other reasons. So the leadership in Pale ...
24 I mentioned Krajisnik here. On the 5th and the 6th, before all
25 of it, he dropped by, and I asked him -- because we were confused with
1 Arkan's men's arrival, he was very surprised, he didn't know about it,
2 and he simply disappeared from Karakaj. I don't even know where he went.
3 That's the answer more or less. No co-ordination could have existed and
4 it did not.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Thank you. The last question by the Presiding Judge, can you
7 read it out loud.
8 A. "Could there be or was there communication? Could one go to this
9 Pale before Krajisnik arrived?"
10 Q. Can you look at the name?
11 A. It's Karisik, it's Karisik, I apologise.
12 Q. Thank you. The next page, please. And when you say "Krajisnik,"
13 you meant Karisik?
14 A. Yes, Karisik from the Serbian police.
15 Q. How would you interpret it, an idiom in our language? Well, I
16 really don't know, in the first few days everyone was minding their own
18 A. I think I answered already. Everyone was busy with themselves
19 alone. All municipalities -- or perhaps let's not go into other
20 municipalities, but in Zvornik, it was the local people who made
21 decisions about everything of importance, for life, the conflict, the
22 economy, everything, as if the state did not exist because it was only
23 being established and even the basic state functions were not in place --
24 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Can we see the previous page for the
1 Yes, please continue.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. Karisik -- Mr. Ivanovic, when did Karisik arrive? When you
4 referred to the period of chaos and ordering things after Karisik
5 arrived, when were the Yellow Wasps arrested and when did Karisik impose
7 A. As far as I recall, it was in late July 1992. I don't know if
8 I'm correct, but to the best of my recollection, late July or early
9 August 1992.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to have pages 17, 24,
12 and 25 admitted, if that has not been tendered by Ms. McKenna already.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll add those pages to the exhibit.
14 Do we need to ask the CLSS to check the translation?
15 MR. ROBINSON: I would think we should and have the exhibit be
16 corrected if necessary.
17 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, what I was told is that what we have is the --
19 is an unrevised version of the OTP, so we hereby request the CLSS to take
20 a look into this translation.
21 Shall we continue.
22 Yes, Ms. McKenna.
23 MS. McKENNA: Just to clarify, Your Honour, which -- because I
24 believe the pages that Mr. Karadzic referred to are the B/C/S pages.
25 Would that be pages 37 and 38 of the English? I just want to make sure
1 that that whole discussion on communications is admitted.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm afraid I cannot be of
3 assistance. I will rely on my associate, Mr. Sladojevic, he will inform
4 the Prosecution of the page numbers in English.
5 MS. McKENNA: Thank you. And just to clarify, page 17 didn't
6 relate to the discussion that we were just having.
7 JUDGE KWON: What we discussed is page 37 and 38 in e-court and
8 hard copy as well, in English?
9 MS. McKENNA: In English, yes, Your Honour. But my understanding
10 was that Mr. Karadzic asked for pages 17, 24, and 25 of the B/C/S. So
11 I'm just making sure that we're all clear as to what exactly is being
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 38 in English was not
14 something we touched upon. On page 17 we have something about what he
15 was asked about in terms of how come it wasn't "no." And we clarified
16 that Mr. Ivanovic stood by his answer that such things were done covertly
17 without any PR. On 24 and 25, it has to do with the clarification of
18 whether there was communication or not which is described by page -- on
19 page 37 in the English.
20 JUDGE KWON: Very well. But page 38 includes the conversation
21 which Ms. McKenna discussed with the witness, so those pages will be --
22 we'll make sure that those pages are included in the exhibit.
23 Shall we continue?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm afraid that what's on page 38
25 was not shown to the witness, but very well, we'll see.
1 JUDGE KWON: Ms. McKenna showed it to the witness.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Only the first two lines of the
4 JUDGE KWON: Let's continue.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Yesterday, Mr. Ivanovic, you were asking about payments and the
8 TO. Given the fact that you were the president of the peace time
9 government in the joint municipality of Zvornik, can you tell us who was
10 supposed to pay the municipal TO?
11 A. I don't know exactly how people were being paid out by the
12 municipality of Zvornik. I do know that -- that contributions were made
13 by different companies in Zvornik, specifically in the company of Birac
14 where I worked. There was money exempt for the procurement of food,
15 clothes, footwear, and as well as some kind of payment or salary,
16 although I believe they only received minimum amounts since we did not
17 have enough money to pay out proper salaries to the armed forces. We
18 were defending lives and freedom, and people were simply happy enough to
19 have footwear, clothes, and a warm place to sleep.
20 Q. Thank you. As for the paramilitary groups, did they arrive as
21 paramilitaries and did they register themselves as volunteers with the
23 A. As far as I have been informed, I think they arrived as
24 volunteers because there was no other way for them to arrive. They
25 probably didn't like engaging in war and they didn't really come to be
1 the true defenders of Serbian freedom, and then they cut themselves
2 loose. They did what they wanted. No one could control them at the
3 time. That's what I know about it, although I have no specific evidence.
4 Q. Thank you. And the Zvornik government, was there someone who
5 could deny payment to them?
6 A. No. I don't think so. I think it all boiled down to force and
7 threats. I don't know exactly how it worked. I don't want to tire you.
8 I really don't know how much they pay these volunteers and if they pay
9 them. I really know very little about it.
10 Q. What you said before, that there was no force, no person in power
11 who could dare deny salaries to them, do you stand by that answer?
12 A. Yes, I stand by it. They would get into factories with arms and
13 rifles, and even if they walked into the municipal building with weapons,
14 the last German mark, the last dinar would be paid out to them. It
15 wasn't the payment of salaries; it was more taking the resources.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What we don't have in the
17 transcript was that it wasn't the payment of salaries but it was simply
18 seizing things, taking away.
19 JUDGE KWON: I think we have it here, taking the resources.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. On page 95 of yesterday's transcript there was mention of a
23 Muslim village where Serb forces entered. Can you say what you meant by
24 that and whether it involved a lawful, legal formation; and if so, what
25 unit was it?
1 A. I can't recall off-the-cuff what it had to do with. I can't say
2 anything specifically in terms of what Serb forces they were.
3 Q. Perhaps it has to do with Djulici or another village that was
4 abandoned by Muslim civilians. I was interested in what you meant to say
5 when you said "Serb forces," was it on the basis of ethnicity or was it a
6 legal formation commanded by the state?
7 A. No, there was no formation commanded by the state, they didn't
8 exist at the time. The people involved were Serbs from the environs of
9 Kladanj and Olovo. A large number of Serbs who with much effort and
10 sacrifice managed to break through the encirclement of Muslim forces,
11 since in Djulici, those people there felt it would be better for them to
12 leave and stay alive than the others enter their homes. That's where
13 they were accommodated. Those are the Serb forces. They included armed
14 people from those areas, and thanks to the weapons they managed to break
15 through and stay alive, otherwise they would all have been killed.
16 That's where they found accommodation and the village population was
17 supposed to go to Tuzla, and yesterday we discussed the issue of men
18 being separated from the women and children. But I'd rather not go back
19 to that issue again, but that's what I meant when I said "Serb forces."
20 Q. Thank you. On page 95 you mentioned that every village had its
21 military leaders. Can you tell us under the Law on All People's Defence
22 and Social Self-Protection, was it unlawful for every settlement,
23 factory, let alone municipality to have their own TO --
24 MS. McKENNA: Objection, objection, that's a leading question.
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Can you tell us how -- who had the authority over the TO under
4 the law?
5 A. A relative of mine was one of the leaders of people's defence and
6 he explained to me how things worked. In Tito's Yugoslavia, which was
7 falling apart at that time, it was the people who organised themselves in
8 the case of natural disasters or whatever. This was a civil war, of
9 course, it was not an external attack. But in such situations, any
10 village organised its own defence. It was easy to understand it. No one
11 had problems understanding it then. I don't know how clear I was now.
12 Q. Well, you would be clearer if you spoke more slowly. Thank you.
13 On page 97 yesterday, it was either read out to you or you said
14 it. You mentioned some events, Brod, Sijekovac, Kupres, and so on, that
15 affected the state of mind of the people in your area. Can you tell us
16 what was happening there?
17 A. Yes, I can. Toward the end of 1991, much before or actually not
18 much before, immediately before the events at Zvornik, because it was the
19 end of the 20th century after all and there were communications in place
20 and there hadn't yet been any extreme tensions, at that time atrocities
21 were committed at Sijekovac. It's in the Brod municipality. The
22 Croatian forces entered and committed crimes. At Kupres, too, I don't
23 know what exactly the ethnic make-up of that area was. It was again the
24 Croatian forces that committed terrible crimes, people were decapitated
25 and what have you. And at another place, the Muslim forces committed
1 crimes. And we weren't even aware that at Sapna a hundred men were armed
2 and getting ready, whereas at the same time the Muslim authorities were
3 telling us that everything was all right, that there were no problems,
4 and so on. There was obviously distrust and somebody was giving orders
5 to these people. Whether it was an order from the central authorities
6 that came from Izetbegovic or not, I don't know. I suppose it was.
7 Q. Please repeat who the first victims were at the localities you
8 mentioned because it wasn't recorded.
9 A. Yes. All the victims were Serbs. At all these places I've
10 mentioned, either Serbian civilians or JNA members. They were children,
11 actually, not really soldiers. You couldn't really call them that,
12 although they were wearing JNA soldiers -- JNA uniforms, which means they
13 were the legal army of the time.
14 Q. On page 94 you were asked about the connections between the TO
15 and the Crisis Staff. In the context of the arming implemented by the
16 Crisis Staff. Did the JNA and the Crisis Staff arm individuals and what
17 was the connection between the TO and the Crisis Staff? Did they
18 distribute weapons to individuals and how was that regulated?
19 A. To tell you the truth, I don't know for sure how weapons were
20 brought in, but I know that weapons did come in. I think that the Serbs
21 got weapons -- well, where exactly did they come from? It may have been
22 left behind by the JNA that was in Bosnia. The JNA went through to
23 Serbia, but it seems that they left many weapons behind. I don't know
24 how people obtained these weapons. They were distributed in villages,
25 but I wasn't involved, so I'm not sure how it went. I never really
1 asked. And the Muslims controlled the TO in Sarajevo and the police and
2 then they were taking weapons from those storage facilities, but you know
3 it was no problem getting weapons. Whenever people want weapons, they
4 will get them, unfortunately.
5 Q. Why did you activate the Serbian municipality of Zvornik so late?
6 When was it proclaimed and when was it activated?
7 A. It was proclaimed much earlier as a reaction to the impossibility
8 of doing anything together. And when I say "together," I'm referring to
9 the SDA party, that is, the Muslims of Zvornik. And it was activated,
10 well, basically when the conflict began. We didn't want to activate it
11 because it was ludicrous. We thought that we would be able to reach
12 agreement. We believed that it would all end peacefully. We never even
13 imagined there would be a conflict. It was a political response, a
14 political platform, based on ignorance of what should be done. I believe
15 that they too didn't know what to do, I'm talking about the executive
16 authorities in Zvornik. But the first half here they probably didn't
17 care much. They were preoccupied by the proclaiming of a sovereign
18 Muslim Bosnia and probably by preparations, armed preparations. And I
19 suppose that they wanted to get ready to exert control over us, but
20 that's my assumption.
21 Q. In document P6404, on page 14 there is mention of this connection
22 between the TO and the Crisis Staff in the context of the distribution of
23 weapons. Now let us clarify what you meant --
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Actually, it's page 15. It's
25 page 15 in Serbian.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Would you kindly repeat the page number,
2 Mr. Karadzic.
3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, how much longer do you have? If it's
4 more than five or ten minutes, the Chamber wishes to have a break now.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Less than five minutes, Excellency.
6 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We don't have to display the
8 document. It was shown yesterday.
9 JUDGE KWON: Is it because we have admitted only those limited
10 number of pages? I'm told that it does not have 15 pages. Let us check.
11 It's part of his October 2002 statement. Do we have a 65 ter number,
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 25117.
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes, 25117 -- 118.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That exists too, but it's another
17 JUDGE KWON: If it is 25117, the Exhibit number is P6402. What
18 statement was -- is it? Is it March or October, Mr. Karadzic?
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The 15th of March and the
20 27th of March, 2002.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes, 25117.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Mr. Ivanovic, we read here that the variant involving the
24 creation of two municipalities was successful. Was it possible for
25 either ethnic community to be expelled from its municipality?
1 A. Could you please repeat the question.
2 MS. McKENNA: Could I also request a specific reference from
3 Mr. Karadzic.
4 JUDGE KWON: I think it's coming, but what passage is it?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no, it's not from the document.
6 On page 87 of yesterday's transcript, Mr. Ivanovic was asked about the
7 municipality and he replied that everything was set for it to start
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. And my question is: Would it have begun operating if everything
11 had ended peacefully and would each side have gotten its own
13 A. No. We would have continued to live peacefully with each other,
14 which is the situation we have today, too.
15 Q. Is there a Muslim municipality of Zvornik today, whatever it's
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. No more questions, Mr. Ivanovic.
19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
20 Well, Mr. Ivanovic, that concludes your evidence. On behalf of
21 the Chamber, I would like to thank you for your coming to The Hague to
22 give it. Now you are free to go.
23 We'll rise all together. We'll have a break for half an hour and
24 resume at five past 11.00.
25 [The witness withdrew]
1 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.
2 [The witness entered court]
3 --- On resuming at 11.08 a.m.
4 JUDGE KWON: Would the witness make the solemn declaration.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
6 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
7 WITNESS: MARINKO VASILIC
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Vasilic. Please be seated and make
10 yourself comfortable.
11 Before you commence your evidence, Mr. Vasilic, I must draw your
12 attention to a certain rule of evidence that we have here at the
13 International Tribunal, that is, Rule 90(E). Under this rule, you may
14 object to answering any question from Mr. Karadzic or the Prosecution or
15 even from the Judges if you believe that your answer might incriminate
16 you in a criminal offence. In this context, "incriminate" means saying
17 something that may amount to admission of guilt in a criminal offence or
18 saying something that might provide evidence that you might have
19 committed a criminal offence. However, should you think that an answer
20 might incriminate you and, as a consequence, you refuse to answer the
21 question, I must let you know that the Tribunal has the power to compel
22 you to answer the question. But in that situation, the Tribunal would
23 ensure that your testimony compelled in such circumstances would not be
24 used in any case that might be laid against you in any case save and
25 except the offence of giving false testimony.
1 Do you understand what I have just told you, Mr. Vasilic?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
4 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.
5 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Vasilic.
7 A. Good morning, Mr. President.
8 Q. Please point it out to me when I don't make a pause between your
9 answer and my question because we want everything to be recorded and
10 that's why we should both speak slowly.
11 Did you give the Defence team a statement?
12 A. Yes.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see 1D9610 from
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Do you see your statement on the screen in front of you?
17 A. Yes, I do, but I would kindly ask for it to be enlarged.
18 Q. Thank you. Did you read and sign the statement?
19 A. Yes.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we show the last page to the
21 witness so that he may identify his signature.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Is this your signature?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you. Does the statement faithfully reflect what you said
1 to the Defence team?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. If I were to ask you the same questions again today, would your
4 answers be essentially the same?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
9 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. There's one associated
10 exhibit being offered. It has not been on our 65 ter list because we
11 hadn't finished the interview of this witness at the time we filed that
12 list, so we would ask that it be added.
13 JUDGE KWON: Any objection, Ms. Gustafson?
14 MS. GUSTAFSON: Good afternoon, Your Honours. No, no objection.
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. We'll admit the statement as well as the
16 associated exhibit.
17 Shall we assign the numbers.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. 1D9610, the statement, will be
19 Exhibit D3693, and 1D7329 will be Exhibit D3694.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 I will now read out a summary of Mr. Marinko Vasilic's statement
23 in English.
24 [In English] Marinko Vasilic started working for the BH MUP in
25 1975. He performed all duties from a police officer to commander. In
1 the political campaigns before the first multi-party elections in
2 Zvornik, there was an escalation of nationalism and chauvinism in the
3 rallies of the SDA party. Shortly after the elections of the new
4 authorities, there were new appointments in the Zvornik public security
5 station. Osman Mustafic was appointed chief of the SJB and
6 Dragan Spasojevic as commander of the Zvornik SJB. After the Zvornik
7 authorities were formed in 1991, there was a split between the SDA and
8 SDS. The SDA had a clear policy of action with the goal of separating BH
9 from the SFRY at any cost, while SDS policy operated towards the
10 preservation of the existing state and reaching a peaceful solution to
11 the problems.
12 SDA leaders from Sarajevo put big pressure on Zvornik Muslim
13 leadership and -- to create a unitary BH, regardless of the will of the
14 Serbs in BH. In 1991, Assistant Commander Mehmed Sahbegovic told
15 Marinko Vasilic that it was time for the Muslims to create their state of
16 Bosnia and the Serbs would be a minority in it. The SDA in Zvornik
17 worsened ethnic relations by out-voting and ignoring the needs of the
18 Serbs in Zvornik. This reflected on the deterioration in the relations
19 in the Zvornik Public Security Station between Muslim police officers and
20 the Serbian police officers. Muslims grouped themselves in some offices
21 and Serbs in others. When Serbs went out into the field during operative
22 work, they were not welcome in villages and local communes where the
23 Muslims lived.
24 Political disagreement in the local authorities of Zvornik
25 impacted ordinary people. Ethnically motivated arguments and incidents
1 were all encouraged by Islamic extremists in the local authorities
2 causing frequent physical attacks and maltreatment of Serbs and members
3 of the JNA in the town by organised groups of Muslims. There were
4 attacks on soldiers and officers, causing great fear among the Serbs.
5 In early 1991, Muslim commanding officers in Zvornik SJB started
6 forming reserve police stations. The stations were exclusively formed in
7 the villages inhabited by only Muslims. They were issued with
8 long-barrelled weapons. The weapons came through illegal channels from
9 Sarajevo and Tuzla. The Serbs did not know of these activities and
10 insisted on talks and issued various statements calling on good
11 neighbourly relations with mutual respect. They wanted to resolve
12 problems peacefully. The Serbs saw the JNA as a force and institution
13 which could prevent a civil war in BH.
14 In summer 1991, the SDS organised a rally in support of peace in
15 Zvornik. Radovan Karadzic and other SDS leaders spoke at the rally. All
16 speakers asked everyone to make an effort and showing a maximum tolerance
17 and condemning nationalism and separatism reach a peaceful solution
18 through talks.
19 The Muslims took the police station in Zvornik twice. Leaders of
20 the Zvornik SDA were responsible for taking the station and setting up
21 barricades in the town and in Muslim villages. As the security situation
22 deteriorated every day, the JNA carried out mobilisation preventing a
23 potential ethnic conflict in Zvornik. The Serbs responded to
24 mobilisation while the Muslims, under pressure from their leaders,
25 boycotted this mobilisation and portrayed the JNA as the occupying army.
1 At the time, the Muslims already had armed units.
2 By 3rd of April, 1992, Muslim paramilitary units set up many
3 check-points and barricades throughout Zvornik. On 5th of April, Muslim
4 extremists killed a JNA officer, causing panic and fear among the Serbs.
5 In populated areas or villages where Serbs lived, people formed village
6 guards on their own initiative to protect themselves. On 6th of April,
7 1992, Zvornik was sealed off and under full control of Muslims. Serbs
8 who did not pull out during the night started fleeing to Karakaj
9 individually. Armed Muslims were controlling the town. They searched
10 Serbian houses and apartments, maltreating and beating the Serbs who were
12 The Serbian leadership in Zvornik continued talks that had
13 already been started and initiated a meeting with the Muslim leadership
14 for security reasons. Jovo Mijatovic and Jovo Ivanovic joined the team
15 for talks on behalf of the Serbs. Arkan burst uninvited into the meeting
16 in Mali Zvornik with his men. He called the Serbian negotiators
17 traitors, saying they had no right to sell Serbian land. A soldier beat
18 both Serbian negotiators. Arkan and his unit then took over command and
19 influenced everything that happened in Zvornik.
20 In late April 1992, Marinko Vasilic tried to organise police work
21 with the goal to -- of ensuring security for the people of Zvornik. They
22 set up check-points and tried to secure the vital buildings in the town.
23 There was no electricity or telephone lines, so communication was
24 organised through couriers. The local Serbian authorities in Zvornik
25 were powerless to oppose the anarchy and lawlessness of the paramilitary
1 units in Zvornik. Police officers were often physically maltreated and
2 abused by the paramilitaries. They tried to get out of their way
3 whenever possible. Both local and police leadership were left to the
4 mercy of the paramilitary forces. The local leadership tried and took
5 some actions to alleviate the extreme and arrogant activity of the
6 paramilitaries as much as it could.
7 Marinko Vasilic repeatedly asked his colleagues in Mali Zvornik
8 for help with paramilitary groups and individuals. None of his requests
9 came to fruition. In July 1992 Branko Grujic informed Radovan Karadzic
10 about Zvornik's problems. Karadzic was surprised by the situation in
11 Zvornik. He ordered police forces be sent to Zvornik and arrest the
12 gang. Shortly after, Branko Grujic and Marinko Vasilic submitted
13 irrevocable resignation for fear of their lives and lives of their
14 families. On 29th and 30th of July of 1992, special forces of the MUP
15 came to Zvornik, in co-ordinated military action with military police
16 units and, using weapons, arrested paramilitary units. All the persons
17 arrested were prosecuted and tried before the relevant courts in RS and
19 And that is short summary, and at that moment I do not have
20 questions for Mr. Vasilic.
21 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. I was waiting for the French translation
22 to be completed.
23 Yes, Mr. Vasilic, as you have noted, your evidence in chief in
24 this case has been admitted in its entirety in writing, that is, through
25 your written witness statement. And now you'll be cross-examined by the
1 representative of the Office of the Prosecutor. Do you understand that?
2 Yes, Ms. Gustafson. Good morning to you.
3 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
4 Cross-examination by Ms. Gustafson:
5 Q. Good morning, Mr. Vasilic.
6 A. Good morning.
7 Q. At paragraph 2 of your statement you refer to statements you've
8 given to the Office of the Prosecution in the past, but I think your
9 dates are a little off. One of the statements you gave to the Office of
10 the Prosecutor was a tape-recorded statement that you gave in October of
11 2002 in Zvornik. That's right, isn't it? You spoke to the OTP on tape
12 in 2002?
13 A. It is correct that I talked to the representatives of this
14 Tribunal, investigators, but I don't remember the year. I think it was
15 soon after this Tribunal was established, that it's actually the 1990s, I
16 think. It was in Zvornik at that, at the courthouse. After a while in
17 Zvornik at the Vidikovac motel. I think my headphones are going to fall
19 Q. Well, that -- the interview that you gave to the OTP, the second
20 one, was tape recorded and the transcript clearly indicates that the date
21 was October of 2002. Do you agree at least that in 2002, 11 years ago,
22 your memory of events in 1992 was better than it is today?
23 A. I'm not going to challenge the year because it's been a lot of
24 time since then, and I know that I talked to the investigators. But the
25 content of that conversation was that then. Perhaps somebody could
1 remind me what the content was then and what it is now. Maybe I could
2 give an explanation for that.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
4 be asked to come closer to the microphone. Thank you.
5 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Vasilic, could you come closer to the microphone
6 so that the interpreters could hear you better? Yes.
7 THE WITNESS: Okay.
8 MS. GUSTAFSON:
9 Q. Mr. Vasilic, don't worry about the contents of that interview
10 now. Rest assured, we will be going through some of the contents of that
11 interview in the examination. Right now I just wanted to get some basic
12 facts about it. And do you agree that your memory of events in 1992 --
13 sorry, your memory of events from 1992 was better 11 years ago than it is
15 A. Well, I assume that some details were fresher in my mind then,
16 but I don't know what this is about. It is certain that my memory was
17 fresher then than it is now.
18 Q. Okay. In your statement you explain that in late April 1992,
19 after Dragan Spasojevic left the police, you became commander of the
20 Zvornik Public Security Station. Before that and before the war broke
21 out in Zvornik, you were an assistant commander in the Zvornik SJB;
23 A. That's right.
24 Q. And then, as you said in your statement, you became commander in
25 April 1992. And then in early June 1992 you became the Zvornik SJB
1 chief, replacing Milos Pantelic; right?
2 A. That's right too, but I don't know whether the date is accurate.
3 It doesn't really matter. But in principle, it is correct.
4 Q. And you resigned from the position of chief of the SJB and left
5 the police in late July 1992; right?
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. You speak at length in your statement about the arming and other
8 preparations for war carried out by the Muslim side in Zvornik, and you
9 contrast that with the Serb side. You said that the Serbs "fully
10 believed that there would be no war and insisted on talks and agreement
11 with a view to resolving the problems peacefully."
12 So is it your position that the Serbs in Zvornik were not arming
13 or preparing for war? Or do you accept that, in fact, both sides were
14 arming and preparing for war in Zvornik?
15 A. Whether both sides were arming and preparing for war? That's a
16 very delicate question. It is one thing to prepare for war and to wage
17 it, and it's another thing to arm yourself and defend yourself. The
18 Serbs -- well, I'm not saying that they were not arming themselves, but
19 the very fact that Serbs trusted the JNA, believing that they would be
20 the guarantor of safety and security and of averting a war, that makes it
21 more likely for them not to be arming themselves to such a high degree at
23 On the other hand, you have this striking statement, astonishing
24 statement, by Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, who says that he is -- that he is
25 prepared to sacrifice peace for a sovereign Bosnia and Herzegovina. That
1 fact in itself says who is in favour of which variant. The Serbs were in
2 favour of the survival of Yugoslavia, including Bosnia-Herzegovina, both
3 the Serbs and Muslims, whereas the leaders of the SDA were --
4 Q. Mr. Vasilic --
5 A. -- in favour of the secession of this republic. That would be my
7 Q. Thank you. I'm going to ask you to try to focus your answers as
8 much as possible on the specific question I ask because my time is
10 Now, in your answer you're saying: "I'm not saying that they
11 weren't arming themselves," referring to the Serb side. In 2002, you
12 told the Office of the Prosecutor that both the Serb side and the Muslim
13 side were arming and preparing for war, and I refer to 65 ter 25215,
14 pages 46, 47, and 71. That's right, isn't it?
15 A. I'm not denying it now either. Serbs -- certain Serbs got ahold
16 of weapons in a certain way and that's what I said before too, but I'm
17 talking about the people as a whole, the people as a whole. There are
18 extreme individuals, extremists, in the -- within the Serb people too,
19 and they showed their true face during the course of this war too.
20 Q. Okay.
21 MS. GUSTAFSON: Could I have Exhibit P2591 on the screen, please.
22 Q. And while that's coming up, Mr. Vasilic, you are aware that in
23 the months before the conflict broke out the Serbian municipality of
24 Zvornik passed a decision forming a Serbian municipality which listed
25 territories that formed part of that Serbian municipality? You're aware
1 of that decision, aren't you?
2 A. No, I was not aware of that decision. I heard that there was
3 talk about the division of Zvornik between the Serbs and Muslims, where
4 Serbs were a majority, that should belong to the Serbs, and where Muslims
5 were a majority, that should belong to them. But as for an official
6 decision, I do not remember having stated anything like that.
7 Q. Okay. Let me remind you of what you said in 2002 when you were
8 shown this document that's on the screen before you now. You were asked:
9 "Do you recall this decision?"
10 And this is at page 44. And you said:
11 "Just a second. I heard of it but I didn't see it before."
12 That's what you told the OTP in 2002 and that's accurate; right?
13 You'd heard of this decision?
14 A. Well, it's possible that I heard of it. I'm not going to say it
15 never existed, but I'm just telling you that the intention was -- I mean
16 that I heard that political representatives were discussing a peaceful
17 settlement, ultimately a division of the municipality of Zvornik. I'm
18 not denying I said that either, but allow for the possibility that I've
19 forgotten. I don't know who compiled this decision. I did not take part
20 in this, so it is possible that I heard of it and that I forgot about it
21 in the meantime.
22 Q. Now I'd like you to look at the territories listed under item 2,
23 which is in the middle of the page in the B/C/S, and it's at the bottom
24 of page 1 and the top of page 2 in the English. And I'm going to remind
25 you of what you said in 2002 about this. You were asked:
1 "In part 2 of this, the areas that were comprised Serbian
2 municipality of Zvornik, that is around 63 areas, can you tell me what
3 proportion of the municipality that would have made up? Do you
4 understand? Can you tell me, looking at these areas that are listed,
5 what percentage or proportion of the municipality would be covered by
6 those areas listed?"
7 And you say:
8 "In a territorial sense?"
9 And the investigator says:
11 And you say:
12 "I would say 80 per cent."
13 Now, that's what you told the OTP in 2002 with respect to the
14 territories listed under item 2 of the document on the screen in front of
15 you, that those areas comprise roughly 80 per cent of the territory of
16 Zvornik. That's right, isn't it?
17 A. I don't want to deal with percentages because I'm not an expert
18 in that field, but I know for sure that in the territory of the
19 municipality of Zvornik, land, as such, was owned by Serbs for the most
20 part. In relation to land ownership by Muslims. Although the ratio of
21 Serb and Muslim population is 60 to 40 per cent in favour of the Muslims.
22 So now if we were to look at the map of the municipality of Zvornik from
23 Bijeljina towards this side, if we're going to look at the area, you know
24 you can paint the map and then you'd see that most of this territory
25 would belong to the Serbs if that kind of agreement were reached on that
1 kind of division, 70, 60, whatever. Don't take my word for it. I'm not
2 a land surveyor or something. I mean, it's one thing to talk under these
3 circumstances and it was a different situation to talk in that situation.
4 You know, I guess you understand what I'm trying to say.
5 Q. Not exactly. Are you saying you didn't tell the truth in 2002
6 when you talked to the Office of the Prosecutor?
7 A. No, I did not say that I was not telling the truth, but I did not
8 know whether it was 80 or 60 per cent. Maybe that just came out, you
9 know, uncontrolled. To this day I don't know what the ratio would be, if
10 there were to be this kind of division, what would belong to the Serb
11 side and what would belong to the Muslim side. Then it would have to be
12 dealt with by experts from that field. So the then-politicians or
13 leaders would agree in order to find a compromise.
14 Q. Well, let me ask you then about some of the specific territories
15 listed in item 2 here. Sopotnik, which was listed in item 2, that was a
16 majority Muslim village. According to the 1991 census there were
17 189 Muslims and 68 Serbs; right? That was a Muslim village
19 A. Sopotnik, there are two Sopotniks, a Muslim Sopotnik and a Serb
20 Sopotnik. And when these people asked me about that, I assume that I
21 said probably the Serb part of Sopotnik would belong to the Serbs. Not
22 at any moment did it cross my mind that the Muslim part should belong to
23 Serb Sopotnik. And finally, after all, allow me to say that I'm not a
24 politician. I did not take part in the creation of these talks. I did
25 not take part in these talks. I was a policeman --
1 Q. Mr. Vasilic --
2 A. -- who possibly answered these questions.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
4 be asked to come closer to the microphone. Thank you.
5 MS. GUSTAFSON:
6 Q. You've been asked again to move closer to the microphone so the
7 interpreters can hear you.
8 A. [In English] Okay.
9 Q. Right now I'm just asking you about the ethnic make-up of some of
10 these villages. Donji Grbavci, that was also a majority Muslim village?
11 846 Muslims and 206 Serbs; right?
12 A. [Interpretation] Which Donji Grbavci? What is meant by
13 Donji Grbavci? There are villages and there are hamlets, Hajdarevici,
14 Lupici, but also there are Serb villages that are linked there,
15 Kitovnice, part of Jardan. I have already given you an answer. Please
16 don't. I know what the ratio is of the population in the municipality of
17 Zvornik. It was about 60 per cent in favour of the Muslims and 40
18 per cent in favour of the Serbs. Perhaps there was 1 or 2 percentage
19 points accounting for some other ethnic communities. But for you to ask
20 me about the percentage of the population in different villages, I mean I
21 really cannot answer those questions for you. Although I might have said
22 something over there, but I'm not the one who was doing that arithmetic
23 and came up with a solution.
24 MS. GUSTAFSON: Your Honours, I tender the pages that contain the
25 passages I read out to the witness regarding his comments on this
1 document. It's pages 43 and 44 of 65 ter 251 -- 25215, sorry.
2 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive it.
4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6405, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE KWON: If you're -- if you are tendering this exhibit in
6 the future, I'd like to see the passage as well.
7 MS. GUSTAFSON: Certainly.
8 Q. Now, Mr. Vasilic, you are also aware, although you don't mention
9 this in your statement, that the Zvornik Crisis Staff declared a state of
10 war in Zvornik on the 6th of April, 1992. That's something else you said
11 in 2002 to the OTP; right?
12 A. Possibly, I don't remember. But as far as I can remember,
13 Republika Srpska -- rather, at the time what was the name of
14 Republika Srpska? The Republic of the Serb people, was it, in
15 Bosnia-Herzegovina? Possibly I said that for Zvornik in view of the
16 Crisis Staff, that it existed. So I found that logical. If there is a
17 Crisis Staff and if there is shooting, then nothing different can be said
18 except that there was a state of war.
19 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could go to 65 ter 25215, specifically
20 page 60.
21 Q. AND, Mr. Vasilic, you were shown the document in which the
22 Crisis Staff declared a state of war in Zvornik, which is P3154 in this
23 case. And you were asked:
24 "Do you recall the declaration of the state of war in Zvornik?"
25 And you said:
1 "I didn't see it. I heard of it because you know of my position
2 at the time."
3 What you told the OTP in 2002 was that you hadn't seen the
4 decision but you'd heard of it because of your position in the police at
5 the time; right?
6 A. I'm not denying that.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In lines 9 onwards where the
10 witness spoke about the state of war, it was not recorded that
11 Republika Srpska did not declare a state of war. [In English] Before
12 the --
13 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
14 THE ACCUSED: -- "possibly I said for Zvornik ..."
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Please continue, Ms. Gustafson.
16 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Mr. Vasilic, not denying something is different than accepting
18 it. Do you accept that you heard about the declaration of the state of
19 war in Zvornik at the time?
20 A. If I stated that then, I'm telling you now after all these
21 years -- well, probably, probably that is the case. I'm not denying
22 that. I mean, I cannot remember each and every word that I uttered. I'm
23 not denying that.
24 MS. GUSTAFSON: I tender this page as well in light of the
25 witness's somewhat ambivalent answer.
1 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll add this page.
3 MS. GUSTAFSON:
4 Q. Now, Mr. Vasilic, you said in your statement in paragraph 21 that
5 in the period leading up to the outbreak of war in Zvornik, the Serbs
6 formed village guards on their own initiative, but you also knew that on
7 the 8th of April, 1992, the Crisis Staff ordered a general mobilisation
8 in Zvornik. You were aware of that order too, weren't you?
9 A. I don't recall that. It's possible.
10 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could go to page 63 of this document.
11 Q. And again, Mr. Vasilic, you were shown the general mobilisation
12 order, which is P3381 in this case, and you said -- you were informed:
13 "This is an order on general mobilisation."
14 And you were asked:
15 "Mr. Vasilic, do you recall this order?"
16 And you said:
17 "The same as the previous one, heard of it, and I didn't see it."
18 Do you accept now that you heard about the general mobilisation
19 order at the time?
20 A. If I said so back then, I accept it, although I don't recall
21 that. I accept it. There you go.
22 Q. Okay. You refer to Arkan's activities and his presence in
23 Zvornik at the outbreak of the conflict. And one thing that you don't
24 say in your statement that you've said before was that when Arkan's men
25 were in Zvornik, for the first four or five days they were based in the
1 Alhos building in Karakaj, in the same building where the police and
2 Crisis Staff were also based. That's correct, isn't it?
3 A. Yes. But would you kindly allow me to clarify something?
4 President Karadzic read my statement. He read out the summary. I would
5 kindly ask for specific details so that I can explain. As for Arkan's
6 unit being at Alhos with us, it doesn't mean, it cannot mean, that we
7 thought they were precious and could hardly await their arrival. But
8 might makes right and they did not bother to ask for our opinion. It is
9 a fact that they were in the nearby offices and we were across the hall.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The transcript.
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness said that they
13 represented the force that did not ask for our opinion --
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Might makes right.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could you please kindly slow down
16 and approach the microphone.
17 MS. GUSTAFSON:
18 Q. Mr. Vasilic, you're again being asked to speak -- to move closer
19 to the microphone.
20 Now, at paragraph 29 of your statement you said that on the
21 9th of April, 1992, Arkan and his forces relieved the blockade of
22 Zvornik, and you referred to Arkan and his unit taking over command.
23 When you testified in the Grujic case, however, you said that the town of
24 Zvornik was liberated by the Zvornik TO "with the help of Arkan's men."
25 That's 65 ter 25217 at page 108.
1 That's right, isn't it, Mr. Vasilic? This was a joint operation
2 involving not just Arkan's men but the Zvornik TO as well?
3 A. I'll respond to the question but do allow me to finish. Arkan
4 with his unit -- well, Pejo, his man, asked of us to have some of our men
5 at their disposal since a day or two previously we could not ensure that,
6 he cursed us and left. And then that day or that date, on the 2nd, Arkan
7 came with his men and then he carried out this additional manning of the
8 unit he planned to establish comprising the people of Karakaj and
9 Celopek. And so he did the job in Zvornik with them. They were Serbs,
10 locals who were in some kind of -- well, they were the people who stood
11 guard on the Serb side. Later on, when the TO was organised and when the
12 VRS was organised, certainly those people were made part of the VRS, and
13 I have in mind the inhabitants of Zvornik.
14 Q. Mr. Vasilic, it was a very simple question. I'm going to ask it
15 again because you didn't answer it. In the Grujic case you said that the
16 town of Zvornik was liberated by the Territorial Defence of the town of
17 Zvornik with the help of Arkan's men.
18 Were you telling the truth when you gave that testimony?
19 A. I always tell the truth. If only I were always allowed to
20 explain. I told the gentlemen in Belgrade, especially attorney Todorovic
21 when he tried to explain that there had been an aggression carried out,
22 but it's not possible for a hundred or 200 volunteers from Serbia could
23 present such a force that would be able to carry out an act of
24 aggression, whereas the Serbs in Zvornik municipality had several
25 thousand of our men who were later on placed in military formations.
1 Well, that is why I'm trying to explain it to you now. It is a fact that
2 they were members of the TO, but it was not organised then. But I simply
3 use the expression "members of the TO."
4 MS. GUSTAFSON: Could I have 65 ter 25217, page 108 of the
5 English and page 73 of the B/C/S.
6 Q. Okay, Mr. Vasilic, this is right at the bottom of the page in
7 both languages. You're being asked about the operation in the town of
8 Zvornik and you were asked:
9 "What was it liberated from and who liberated it?"
10 And you answer:
11 "It was liberated by the Territorial Defence of the town of
13 And the Judge says:
14 "Face the Panel."
15 And then you add:
16 "With the help, with the help of Arkan's men."
17 I'm going to ask you one more time. That's what you said in the
18 Grujic case and that's the truth; right?
19 A. It is true that Arkan, with his men, led the operation and that
20 the people from Karakaj assisted him. That would be the real truth.
21 MS. GUSTAFSON: I tender this page.
22 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive it.
24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6406, Your Honours.
25 MS. GUSTAFSON:
1 Q. Mr. Vasilic, this isn't discussed anywhere in your statement, but
2 you are aware, are you not, that during the time when you were police
3 station commander and police station chief, there were some terrible,
4 terrible crimes committed against Muslims in Zvornik; right?
5 A. That's right.
6 Q. Okay. I'm going to go through some of the things you've said
7 about these crimes in your prior statements and ask you to confirm them.
8 So in 2002 -- first I'm going to ask you about the massacre in Drinjaca
9 at the end of May 1992. And you told the OTP in 2002 that you received
10 information from the reserve police officers in Drinjaca that a TO unit
11 under the command of Lieutenant Martic executed a group of Muslim
12 prisoners in the school playground in Drinjaca. And that's pages 114,
13 115, and 119.
14 That's right, isn't it?
15 A. It is true that the event took place. It is true that a certain
16 Lieutenant, not Martic but Matic, that person had a group of men who came
17 from outside Bosnia and Herzegovina. They went to the area of Drinjaca
18 where they carried out independent operations. In their operations, of
19 course, some inhabitants of Drinjaca participated, but I don't know who
20 they were. It all went through this kid, Lieutenant Matic. Later on I
21 inquired who he was and where he had come from. I was told he was a
22 lieutenant and that he was somewhere in the area of Vitinice -- or,
23 actually, that he was killed there.
24 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could go to 65 ter -- sorry -- yeah,
25 65 ter 25215, page 114.
1 Q. You were asked about the killing in Drinjaca and you said -- you
2 were asked:
3 "What can you tell us?"
4 And you say, this is at the bottom of the page:
5 "I don't remember precisely who informed me. Was it Ljubisav,
6 Ljubisa, or someone else, but we did receive information that the men
7 were taken to the stadium and they were lined, so to speak, lined up just
8 like in the army, and then in the end Territorial Defence member
9 Lieutenant Martic and his group of people shot them. I'm not sure if
10 that's the appropriate expression, but the women were present when that
11 happened. They were watching."
12 And then at page 119 you were asked:
13 "You said that Martic and his men were responsible, so how do
14 you ..." and then there's something incomprehensible.
15 And then you say:
16 "I learned -- I heard that from the police officers who worked
17 there and that was also the rumour in the town."
18 Now, Mr. Vasilic, Lieutenant Martic, it may have been a mistake
19 and it's actually Lieutenant Matic, but you say clearly that he was a
20 Territorial Defence unit commander. And that's true, right, that was the
21 information you had?
22 A. First and foremost, he was the commander of his unit, of his
23 group of men. They were joined by some people from the area. I think
24 that the TO commander was a different person. I don't know his name, but
25 the person in question was from the area. I could even speculate that he
1 was a certain Petrovic.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Do we have a Serbian version of
3 this so that the witness could see his own words in the Serbian language
4 and what they were?
5 MS. GUSTAFSON: We only have English.
6 Q. Mr. Vasilic, you also told the OTP that Lieutenant Matic -- that
7 you'd heard that he was an active officer of the JNA and that he came to
8 the area after withdrawing from Slovenia and Croatia; right?
9 A. I don't remember. It's possible. I think after so much time I
10 really -- I know that he was not from Zvornik municipality and I never
11 saw him. I heard his name was Lieutenant Matic and that he was not even
12 from BiH.
13 Q. Okay --
14 A. I can't even deny that he was a military person. I really can't
16 Q. Well, let me remind --
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The transcript. The witness did
18 not say "I can't deny." He said "I cannot assert that he was not a
19 military person of the VJ."
20 MS. GUSTAFSON:
21 Q. Okay. So let me remind you of what you said in 2002, and that's
22 on the previous page, page 118, near the bottom you were asked about
23 Lieutenant Martic or Matic, as we now know, and his unit. And you said:
24 "I don't know for sure but I heard that he was an active officer
25 of JNA and that he came to this area after withdrawing from Slovenia and
2 And then you were asked:
3 "At the time, where did his unit fit in? What was it ..."
4 And you said on the next page:
5 "I think that at that time brigade was still not formed. I
6 believe that time that Territorial Defence units were organising
7 different settlements or locations, their companies, platoons, and so on,
8 but they were all subordinated to the Territorial Defence commander."
9 So --
10 A. Yes, that's right, and I say so now as well.
11 Q. Okay. And you also told the OTP that:
12 "At the time there was a reserve police station located in the
13 Drinjaca Dom Kulture commanded by Ljubisav Petrovic."
14 That's right, isn't it?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Okay. And also in 2002, the investigators told you that their
17 information about this massacre was that the males who were executed were
18 held in the Drinjaca Dom Kulture with the women and children and then the
19 men were taken out and executed on the nearby playground. And you
20 responded that:
21 "If that was the case, the police who were stationed in the
22 Dom Kulture in Drinjaca must have known all the details of this
24 And that's right, isn't it, if the massacre took place right
25 outside the Dom Kulture, the police officers stationed in Dom Kulture
1 would have known all about it?
2 A. If you allow me, I was asked, first of all, and they asserted
3 that it actually happened in the cultural hall and that the reserve
4 police station was located in the building, which is incorrect. The
5 reserve police or milicija station, as it was called then, as far as I
6 know was placed in the cultural hall in Drinjaca. The cultural hall is
7 physically separate from the school. And if the policemen were there, if
8 not -- if they were not able to see it, they could have heard it. But
9 you will allow that I said earlier in an investigation and that it was
10 conveyed by Ljubisav or Ljubisa Petrovic that it took place under such
11 circumstances so not in the cultural hall and not immediately next to the
12 cultural hall. Now, whether they saw it, whether they observe it from
13 somewhere, I really can't say. When it comes to the reserve police
14 station, since we are on that topic, any bigger local commune or several
15 local communes across Zvornik municipality had reserve police stations --
16 Q. Mr. Vasilic --
17 A. -- and joint reserve police stations.
18 Q. I'm not asking you about the structure of reserve police stations
19 in Zvornik. I'd like to ask you to please focus on the specific
20 questions I ask.
21 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could go to page 120 of this document.
22 Q. And here you were asked -- you were told by the investigator:
23 "The information we have is that the execution was -- those
24 people were held in 'Dom Kulture,' and that it would have included men
25 and women, and that men were taken outside and executed on a basketball
1 court outside 'Dom Kulture' in groups of about 10. Can you tell us
2 something about that?"
3 And you say:
4 "I don't know about those details."
5 And you were asked:
6 "If that was the case, it was just outside 'Dom Kulture,' it
7 would have been just outside your reserve police office; is that
9 And you said:
10 "It was surely not far."
11 And the question was asked:
12 "It was on a basketball court. You know the basketball court I'm
13 talking about?"
14 And you answer:
15 "I don't think there are two. There is a playground or field or
16 football field in front of the school. I think that's the only one. Is
17 it a basketball court or something else, I don't know."
18 And then the investigator says:
19 "So the information we have is that they were executed there. If
20 that was the case, your police would have to be well aware of what took
22 And you answered:
23 "Most probably they were there and they were watching the whole
24 thing from the building. They must know the details."
25 That's what you said in 2002 and that's the truth; right?
1 A. If I said so, although I cannot recall the details, whether it
2 was precisely conveyed word for word, then I do not dispute it if the
3 policemen were there. If they were there, if they could not see every
4 detail, then at least they could have heard what was going on. I do not
5 deny that. But I can't say that it was so word for word. I don't know
6 what the distance is, and I reply that any school had some kind of pitch
7 and it would be one rather than two.
8 Now, whether the policemen were there, how many were there, how
9 many were in the field, I don't know. If they were there, they could
10 have observed -- seen it.
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Vasilic --
12 A. As far as I recall --
13 Q. -- your answer is clear.
14 MS. GUSTAFSON: I'd like to tender this page.
15 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We'll add this page.
16 MS. GUSTAFSON:
17 Q. And at page 115 of this transcript, you were asked about what
18 happened after this, and I'd like to read the question and answer to you.
19 You were asked:
20 "So what happened to these people being killed? Did you make any
21 inquiry afterwards?"
22 And you said:
23 "Nothing was done there."
24 And another question started to be asked and then you continued,
25 you said:
1 "Except ... nothing but again, typical conversations with leading
2 men in the staff and leading politicians. It was said that things could
3 no longer go that way, could be run that way, and that that was no longer
4 war. But it was much more horrific than a regular war. There was no
5 response. There were no questions asked. All normal people were very
6 surprised and very depressed by this."
7 And that's the truth, isn't it, Mr. Vasilic? You raised this
8 massacre with leading politicians and leading men in the staff. There
9 was no response and nothing was done; right?
10 A. I broached this topic with the gentleman in the TO staff so that
11 we would see what happened, why it happened, and how it developed, and
12 who was responsible. However, the Chief of Staff promised to investigate
13 it. As for other facilities where people were being taken to, I insisted
14 that people could not be taken to unless it is known who was being
15 brought in, by whom, and why --
16 Q. I'm not asking you about other facilities now. I'm asking you
17 about this massacre in Drinjaca. And in 2002 you said you spoke to
18 leading politicians and leading men in the staff and there was no
19 response and nothing was done. Was that the truth that you said in 2002
20 or were you lying?
21 A. Madam, I never lied. Please don't use that term. I'm telling
22 you, and I repeat, that I discussed the topic with the TO staff chief,
23 Mr. Marko Pavlovic. It was Marko Pavlovic at the time and I didn't know
24 what other names he went by. I didn't know who he was or where he had
25 come from. He promised to investigate the case. Under the Law on the
1 Armed Forces of the former Yugoslavia, all acts committed by members of
2 the army or Territorial Defence are to be investigated by the competent
3 organs of the unit or district. That is why I no longer dealt with the
5 Q. Mr. Vasilic, you say you never lied, but you just said twice now
6 that Marko Pavlovic promised to investigate this incident, and in 2002
7 you said there was no response and nothing was done. One of those
8 statements is a lie, which one?
9 A. I ask you again, it's not a lie, do not use that term. I told
10 you he promised me. Now, as for him not doing anything, you should ask
11 him about it. I was in no position to force Mr. Marko Pavlovic or arrest
12 him for not having done it. If you will allow me, I can tell you about
13 my past and my relationship with such forces that were killing in the
15 Q. I'm not asking you about that --
16 A. Because no one would listen to me on that score.
17 Q. Is it your position now that Marko Pavlovic promised to
18 investigate this incident, but in fact did nothing? Is that what you're
20 A. That's exactly what I'm trying to tell you and to explain to you.
21 The man promised it would be investigated to see what happened, how it
22 happened, and why. It was up to the security organs to investigate the
23 case. Whether anything was done, I don't know. I have no feedback.
24 That's why I said the result is zero, nothing was done.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In line 12, the witness said that
3 it was up to the security organ and he had a security organ, that is the
4 TO or Mr. Pavlovic, that is his security organ, which was not recorded.
5 JUDGE KWON: I don't know what part is the -- what witness
6 actually said.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Line 12 of page 68 --
8 JUDGE KWON: No, no, because I think you seem to have added your
9 explanation. So, Mr. Vasilic --
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no, no. We can have the
11 recording reviewed. It was up to the security organ, and what's missing
12 is that he had a security organ.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes. If you stopped there it was clear, but you
14 added some explanation as if those explanation were also his words.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You're right, but I wanted to
16 explain the meaning which was lost.
17 JUDGE KWON: Do you confirm that, Mr. Vasilic?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
20 Let's continue, Ms. Gustafson.
21 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you.
22 I tender this page of the transcript.
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll add this page as well.
24 MS. GUSTAFSON:
25 Q. Mr. Vasilic, you also told the OTP in 2002 what you knew about
1 the execution of men from the Djulici area, in the Karakaj technical
2 school, and Gero's slaughter-house. And you said that you heard about
3 the killings of these men immediately after these events because this was
4 the talk of the town at the time. That's right, isn't it?
5 A. After the events themselves, I did not hear that and I can't have
6 stated anything of the kind. I know how those persons came to the
7 technical school, if we're talking about the people from Djulici, or
8 rather, Bijeli Potok.
9 Q. That's not what I'm asking you about right now.
10 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could go to page 96 of this document.
11 Q. And at the bottom you were asked:
12 "Now, this information that you've received about the killing of
13 people at Karakaj technical school or Gero's, who did you receive that
15 And you said:
16 "It was the rumour of the town."
17 And on the next page you were asked:
18 "But whom did you receive it from?"
19 You said:
20 "I don't remember! It was too long ago."
21 And you were asked:
22 "When, when did you hear of that?"
23 And you said:
24 "That was talked about for about half a year, and I guess I heard
25 about it immediately after the events had taken place, and the more free
1 the town became, the more people talked about this."
2 Now, that's true, isn't it, Mr. Vasilic, this was the talk of the
3 town immediately after the events and you heard about it immediately
4 after the events; right?
5 A. That's a mistake. It's a mistake made in the explanation. I
6 said that I had heard of these misdeeds after leaving the police, that
7 is, a few months later. In other words, I didn't hear it immediately,
8 after a day or two or five, but a few months later. That's when I heard
9 of Celopek, the technical school centre, after the arrest of the
10 paramilitaries who were taken to prison. That's how it was. For a
11 couple of months, it was the whisper of the town rather than the talk
12 because no one dared speak out loud about it. Even after those persons
13 had been arrested, no one dared speak openly.
14 Q. Mr. Vasilic, the Chamber just heard this morning from another
15 Defence witness who confirmed that this is what everybody was talking
16 about immediately after the events, the killing of hundreds of men from
17 the Karakaj technical school, and he said that he heard about it within
18 days. You were either the police station commander or the police chief
19 at the time these killings took place. Are you saying that you didn't
20 know what everyone was talking about in Zvornik at the time, about this
21 horrible crime?
22 A. That is correct --
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we get a reference for this?
24 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Where is a reference to what the
1 previous witness said and how he said it?
2 MS. GUSTAFSON: I don't have it at my finger-tips. It was my
3 recollection from sitting in court this morning, but I will find it.
4 Q. Mr. Vasilic, I'm not sure we got your entire answer. Are you --
5 do you agree that you as police station commander or police station chief
6 did not know about this massacre even though this was what everyone was
7 talking about in Zvornik at the time?
8 A. Let me explain. The events or the massacre at the secondary
9 school centre at Karakaj or the Celopek case, I faced Mr. Sredo Vukovic
10 in Belgrade at the special court and I faced Mr. Petko Panic and they
11 changed their statement given to that same court because they stated that
12 they had thought that I knew, or that Sredo Vukovic said that I had told
13 that certain people were to be transferred to Celopek from Zvornik --
14 Q. Mr. Vasilic --
15 A. -- in no case --
16 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you. This is not responsive to my
17 question. You're being asked about what you knew and when you knew it.
18 I'm not asking you about what other people said in other trials. It's
19 about what you knew and when you knew it.
20 A. I'm telling you now so you can find the documents and see that
21 I'm not lying, that I'm telling the truth. I did not know about these
22 events. I found out several months later, and even then people whispered
23 about it. The people who knew immediately either were involved or
24 something else. There were about -- you almost -- ten groups of
25 paramilitaries. You didn't dare breathe let alone comment. I don't know
1 who had that much courage; I didn't. If I had known of such things, you
2 can trust me that I wouldn't have remained silent. When I exhausted all
3 possibilities of removing the paramilitaries, I asked President Grujic
4 that --
5 Q. Mr. Vasilic --
6 A. -- that we should go to meet President Karadzic --
7 Q. Mr. Vasilic --
8 A. -- and apply for help. That's your reply: I didn't know.
9 Q. I'm going to ask you once again to just answer the question I ask
11 MS. GUSTAFSON: I would like to tender pages 100 -- 96 and 97 and
12 have that added to the existing exhibit number. And I note the time.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll do that. Yes, we'll have a break for
14 45 minutes --
15 THE ACCUSED: Transcript.
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
17 THE ACCUSED: The witness said: "And we went to meet President
18 Karadzic and ask for assistance," not "we should go," line 19.
19 JUDGE KWON: Do you confirm that, Mr. Vasilic?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
22 MS. GUSTAFSON: And, Your Honours, just -- Dr. Karadzic has asked
23 for the transcript reference for the question I put. It was page 7,
24 lines 12 to 22 of this morning.
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
1 Mr. Tieger, do you have anything?
2 MR. TIEGER: I just understood the precise line reference was 17
3 to 23. That was the only thing I had in mind.
4 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
5 We'll break for 45 minutes and resume at 20 past 1.00 -- I'm
6 sorry, 20 past 12.00 -- oh, 20 past 1.00. I'm carried away.
7 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.32 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 1.23 p.m.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue, Ms. Gustafson.
10 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. Mr. Vasilic, before the break I was asking you about your
12 knowledge of the massacre of men from Djulici at the Karakaj technical
13 school and Gero's slaughter-house. I have one more question about this
14 event, these events, which was -- which is to have you confirm what you
15 said to the OTP in 2002, which was that nothing was done to investigate
16 these killings. That's right, isn't it?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. At paragraph 46 of your statement you refer to events in Celopek.
19 Somewhat elliptically you state that the reserve police members who
20 provided security there never informed you about events that took place
21 there. You're talking here about the Celopek Dom Kulture, where reserve
22 police officers guarded some Muslim civilians who were kept there; right?
23 A. Right.
24 Q. And you testified in the Grujic case that those Muslims were
25 taken to the Celopek Dom Kulture on Drinatrans buses on the orders of
1 either the TO staff or the interim government and they were escorted
2 there by police official Miko Miljanovic. That's what you said and
3 that's correct; right?
4 A. That is correct.
5 Q. Now I'd like to ask you about the paramilitary groups in Zvornik.
6 You described them as being too powerful for the police to oppose. And I
7 want to ask you about one of those units which was known as Gogic's men.
8 Now, you told the OTP in 2002 that they were brought in when
9 Milos Pantelic was the police chief, they wore police uniforms, and they
10 were paid by the municipality within the police organisation. That's
11 accurate, isn't it?
12 A. It's accurate, but I would like to explain that if I may.
13 Q. If you could briefly -- if there's something you feel you need to
14 explain to make sense of your answer, please do so briefly.
15 A. Very briefly. Just that this Trial Chamber knows where those
16 people came from. When Milos Pantelic became the station chief, he
17 brought these people with him. And I asked him, "Who are these people?
18 Where are they from?" And he answered, "These are my men, they are under
19 my control." And then I said, "There can't be two police forces in one
20 police station." When they came they were wearing camouflage uniforms
21 and on their shoulders there was a police patch. I insisted that these
22 people be removed, and he answered that I had nothing to do with them,
23 that they were under his authority, and that he was in charge. I was
24 trying to get rid of these paramilitaries and I included the Gogic's men
25 in that group. I asked the people from Mali Zvornik and Serbia for
1 assistance because they were -- most of them were from Serbia or almost
2 all of them. And once we nearly succeeded or --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Once we succeeded but they
5 returned. As for the fact that they were paid by the municipality, we
6 were all because it didn't function otherwise. And Chief Pantelic
7 insisted that a list be made of all police personnel and that these
8 people be put on the list, and that's how they got paid.
9 MS. GUSTAFSON:
10 Q. Okay. In your answer you referred several times to
11 Milos Pantelic telling you that Gogic's men were his men, they were under
12 his control, under his authority, and that, the fact that Gogic's men
13 were operating under the direct authority and control of the police chief
14 at the time, was one of the reasons that it was difficult for the police
15 to oppose this unit. How could they oppose this unit if they were
16 operating under the direct authority of the police chief? That's right,
17 isn't it?
18 A. I don't understand the question.
19 Q. You talk in your statement about how difficult it was for the
20 police to oppose these paramilitary units. With respect to Gogic's men,
21 one of the reasons it was difficult to oppose them is because they were
22 operating under the authority and control of the police chief; right?
23 A. I opposed them. The others didn't because they expected me to
24 do, and naturally I did but Chief Pantelic insisted that they were under
25 his authority and that they reported exclusively to him. And I said that
1 there couldn't be two police forces. Some people were to report both to
2 me and him and others only to him.
3 Q. And one of the things that concerned you about this group and
4 caused you to complain to Chief Pantelic was that Gogic's men were
5 behaving in an obviously improper way. That's what you told the OTP in
6 2002 and that's true; right?
7 A. That's right.
8 Q. And you had fears about how Gogic's men would treat civilians,
9 given your observations of them. That's another thing you told the OTP
10 and that's true; right?
11 A. It's true that people were -- the people were getting drunk, that
12 they were behaving arrogantly. Simply, there was no -- they were out of
13 control. They were present but they were not controlled. And the same
14 could be expected from them as from the other paramilitaries who were
15 present, and I can tell this Trial Chamber that at the moment while
16 groups were coming in, the people thought that they were coming to help,
17 but then the population soon realised that they hadn't arrived for the
18 interest of the Serbian people but for their own interest and
20 Q. Okay. In your statement at paragraph 36 you said that you were
21 left to the mercy of these paramilitaries thanks to the poor or
22 non-existent communication with the relevant republican organs. So my
23 question for you is this: When was the first time that you communicated
24 to the republican MUP authorities the problems you were having with
1 A. I cannot give you a precise date. First and foremost, we didn't
2 have means of communication such as phone lines, telexes, and what have
3 you. It took quite some time to set up radio communications and other
4 channels of communication. People from the ministry did call at us, but
5 it seems to me that the real reason was for them to take their families
6 to Serbia where they were safe and that they just dropped by in passing.
7 I explained to them that it was impossible to work here, even live here.
8 And there were some promises made that they would forward this
9 information up the ladder so that these paramilitaries be eliminated.
10 And I went to Mali Zvornik to ask for help with Brano Grujic, as I've
11 already said, but unsuccessfully --
12 Q. I'm just going to stop you because we're moving away from the
13 question. Let me remind you what you said in your Grujic case testimony.
14 You told the Trial Chamber that:
15 "MUP inspectors from the Sarajevo MUP came to Zvornik several
16 times in May and June 1992" and that you told them about the problems
17 that you were having. That's true, isn't it?
18 A. Well, that's what I said now too, that people from the ministry
19 came, but it was my impression that they called only in passing, to see
20 what was happening, and I explained my problem to them. Later on when
21 communications became operational again, when it was possible to send out
22 documents, and I remember a report of mine where I described the problem
23 with paramilitaries in the Zvornik area, we were almost kept prisoner in
24 the headquarters, we were hiding from the paramilitaries headed by Zuco.
25 We were detained for five hours at gunpoint. Well, that's quite enough
1 for you to understand who you're dealing with.
2 Q. That's in your statement, and again you're moving away from the
3 question I asked.
4 MS. GUSTAFSON: Could we have D1436, please.
5 Q. And while that's coming up, Mr. Vasilic, do you recall an
6 inspection carried out at the Zvornik SJB by Dragomir Andan and
7 Danilo Vukovic between -- sometime between the 29th of May and the
8 12th of June, 1992?
9 Mr. Vasilic, did you hear the question? This document states
10 that an inspection was carried out by Dragomir Andan and Danilo Vukovic
11 from the two MUP inspectors of the Zvornik SJB between 29 May and
12 12 June 1992. Do you recall this inspection?
13 A. There was a number of -- there were a number of people. There
14 was Mr. Andan and others, but I don't recall their names. On two or
15 three occasions people came, but I don't remember the names.
16 MS. GUSTAFSON: Okay. If we could go to page 5 of the English
17 and page 4 of the B/C/S, this is the part of the report discussing the
18 inspection in Zvornik and I'd like to direct you to the second paragraph
19 in the B/C/S, if it could be made as large as possible. And this is the
20 first page in the B/C/S.
21 Q. And the report states:
22 "Even on the territory of liberated area of Zvornik, the SJB
23 Zvornik comes across numerous problems regarding the visit and activities
24 by paramilitary formation in this area. Besides the fact that the
25 government of Zvornik municipality has through its decision banned the
1 establishment of a training camp run by Captain Dragan, military
2 authorities have allowed that the same be formed in the area of Divici.
3 According to the senior staff at the SJB Zvornik, the same have also
4 usurped the premises of Vidikovac hotel and have gathered there a large
5 number of persons criminally inclined, persons prone to robbery, terror,
6 rapes, et cetera. Due to such a decision and legalisation of the stay by
7 criminally inclined persons in this area, the chief of SJB Zvornik,
8 dissatisfied with the decision by military authorities, has submitted a
9 request to be released from his duty."
10 And in the next paragraph it states:
11 "It is necessary to mention that these persons have on multiple
12 occasions confiscated tools, foreign currency and other valuables,
13 committed rapes, and even killed Muslim nationals who were ready for
15 Mr. Vasilic, in your statement you attributed the problems with
16 paramilitaries to poor or non-existent communication with republican
17 organs. But this report by a republican organ indicates that this is not
18 a communication problem. The republican authorities are clearly aware of
19 the situation in Zvornik. The problem, as stated in this report, is that
20 the military authorities in Zvornik are protecting and supporting the
21 paramilitaries. That's the gist of the complaints of the Zvornik SJB as
22 recorded here; right?
23 A. I don't know if the military authorities were supporting the
24 paramilitaries. I can neither confirm nor deny that. But they didn't
25 get approval from the military authorities to set up a training centre at
1 Vidikovac, but Captain Dragan did that on his own. He came to talk to me
2 and Mr. Grujic. And we told Captain Dragan, Frankly, if you came to
3 fight for the Serbian people, go to headquarters [as interpreted] and see
4 the commander rather than request computers and I don't know what kind of
5 machines from us, that was out of the question. And then he wanted to
6 establish a training centre. What has that got to do with us? It's not
7 for us to either support it or not support it. The republican
8 authorities were the ones who had the authority to give approval to that.
9 I don't know who could have supported him. General Mladic once expelled
10 him, he ordered him to leave Zvornik.
11 Q. Mr. Vasilic --
12 THE ACCUSED: Transcript. [Interpretation] I apologise, but --
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- it's about the transcript. In
15 line 12, it was wrongly recorded that Mr. Vasilic told Captain Dragan to
16 go to headquarters, whereas the witness said "go to the brigade" rather
17 than "headquarters."
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.
19 MS. GUSTAFSON:
20 Q. Mr. Vasilic, you just stated that Captain Dragan did not have
21 authority from the military to set up his training camp. This
22 contemporaneous document based on information from your SJB states
23 exactly the opposite in black and white, that Captain Dragan -- the
24 military authorities have allowed Captain Dragan to form his training
25 centre in Divic. That's what you and other SJB officials told these
1 republican MUP inspectors when they visited; right?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No --
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Where does it say that Vasilic told
4 that to Andan?
5 MS. GUSTAFSON: That was my question.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer is no.
7 MS. GUSTAFSON:
8 Q. Mr. Vasilic, this report also states that:
9 "Due to this decision and the legalisation of the stay by
10 criminally inclined persons, the chief of the SJB has submitted a request
11 to be released from his duty."
12 Now this, late May/early June, the time of this inspection, that
13 was right around the time that Milos Pantelic resigned as SJB chief and
14 you took over; right?
15 A. That's right.
16 Q. And at the beginning of the second paragraph I read out to you
17 that the report states that the paramilitaries had committed a number of
18 crimes, even killing Muslim nationals who were ready for exchange.
19 So it appears that you and other SJB officials were well aware
20 that these paramilitary groups were killing Muslims and you reported this
21 to the republican MUP authorities at the time of this inspection in late
22 May or early June; right?
23 A. I don't know who Mr. Andan talked to and this gentleman who was
24 with him, but I explained this to you a moment ago about the killings in
25 Karakaj and Celopek. As for individual murders in town, they did happen
1 but I don't know who was involved. Was it committed by Zuco's group,
2 Captain Dragan's group, was it the White Eagles group? These corpses
3 that were found, there were Serbs who were killed too, it wasn't only
4 Muslims. I asked for an investigation team to go out on the scene along
5 with an investigating judge.
6 Q. Mr. Vasilic, whether you knew precisely who the perpetrators
7 were, it's clear from this report you were either the number one or the
8 number two Zvornik police official at the time. You must have known
9 based on this report that paramilitaries were -- had been killing Muslim
10 nationals; right?
11 A. In town, the town of Zvornik, there was no one else who could
12 have killed Muslims and Serbs - you have to add that too - apart from
13 paramilitaries. I've said this to you very nicely. While I was there, I
14 insisted that teams be set up and that on-site investigations be carried
15 out, and also that these cases should be resolved as such.
16 Q. Okay. In your statement at paragraphs 40 and 41 you state that
17 in mid-July 1992, you and Branko Grujic secretly went to Pale to inform
18 the leadership about the situation in Zvornik and seek help. You state
19 that you did not personally speak with Dr. Karadzic but that Grujic told
20 you that President Karadzic was visibly surprised by the situation in
21 Zvornik and promised to send a police force to Zvornik.
22 Now, in the Grujic case you testified that this trip to Pale with
23 Mr. Grujic took place sometime in June 1992, not July. And that's right,
24 isn't it, this trip took place in June?
25 A. Oh, don't, I'm not sure whether it's June or July. The important
1 thing is that we went to see him, and, quite simply, I did not sleep, I
2 hadn't slept for a long time, and I fell asleep when I was waiting to be
3 seen by Karadzic and I slept through Brano Grujic's meeting and then he
4 told me what he heard from Karadzic. And please don't take my word for
5 this, whether it's June or July, I might have said -- I don't know. But
6 I'm telling you all of this quite frankly, quite sincerely. I mean, I'm
7 not a person who keeps his mouth shut.
8 MS. GUSTAFSON: Your Honours, I note that I'm nearing the end of
9 my time. I think I need about ten more minutes to conclude if that would
10 be all right.
11 JUDGE KWON: I'm afraid you're past your time, but please carry
13 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you.
14 Q. And, Mr. Vasilic, you said you weren't sure whether it was June
15 or July. I'm going to put to you that it would have made no sense for
16 you and Mr. Grujic to go to Pale to see Dr. Karadzic in mid-July because,
17 in fact, Dr. Karadzic came to Zvornik with General Mladic and met with
18 the Zvornik authorities, including both you and Mr. Grujic, on the
19 30th of June. That's right, isn't it?
20 A. I know that he came, but the date, the month, I didn't give that
21 any thought. I know that Mr. Karadzic came and that Mr. Mladic came.
22 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could have P1478, page 246 of the English
23 and 244 of the B/C/S.
24 MR. ROBINSON: While we're waiting, wouldn't it be a good thing
25 to ask him whether the meeting in Pale was before or after Dr. Karadzic
1 and General Mladic came? That might help you find if it's in June or
2 July since we know the date of that meeting with Mladic and Karadzic.
3 MS. GUSTAFSON: Well, that's why I put to him that it couldn't
4 have been July because that wouldn't have made any sense given the
5 presence of the accused in Zvornik on the 30th of June.
6 Q. Mr. Vasilic, this meeting took place on the 30th of June and you
7 were present at it; right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. This is an extract from General Mladic's military notebook
10 recording the conversation at that meeting. And I'd like to go through
11 some of the comments in it with you.
12 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could go to page 250 of the English and
13 248 of the B/C/S, this --
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see whether the name of this
15 witness is mentioned at all or whether we have a completely different
16 Vasilic under number 16?
17 MS. GUSTAFSON: He's confirmed his presence at this meeting and I
18 will come to his name, and that's an inappropriate intervention.
19 Q. Mr. Vasilic, this is Mr. Grujic speaking. And you can see around
20 the middle of the page after he says that Marko Pavlovic accomplished
21 much until the formation of the brigade. He says:
22 "In addition to major accomplishments, we also had many problems
23 from various formations, and Dencic called together these groups 'called
24 Zuca and similar,' Captain Dragan appeared out of nowhere requesting to
25 form a centre in Divic ..."
1 That reference to Dencic, that's a reference to Nikola Dencic,
2 the Eastern Bosnia Corps commander; right?
3 A. I'm not sure whether it's the same meeting, whether this Dencic
4 is there or not. I don't know. There is a reference to Vasilic, there
5 was a brigade commander, a certain Vasilic. Just tell me where the
6 meeting was held. If it was held at the municipality, that's the one
7 that I attended. If it was at another location, then I was not there.
8 Q. Mr. Vasilic, right now I'm just asking you whether Mr. Grujic's
9 reference to Dencic calling together groups such as Zuca is a reference
10 to Nikola Dencic, the Eastern Bosnian Corps commander. Can you confirm
12 A. I don't know the gentleman, Mr. Dencic, I never met him
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness repeat
15 the last part of his sentence in terms of that person's face.
16 MS. GUSTAFSON:
17 Q. You've been asked to repeat the last part of your sentence in
18 terms of that person's face. Could you repeat that?
19 A. I don't know Mr. Dencic and I could not recognise him by his face
20 anywhere because I don't know him.
21 Q. Okay. And Mr. Grujic says:
22 "Captain Dragan appeared out of nowhere requesting to form a
23 centre in Divic ..."
24 That's a reference to Captain Dragan's training centre in Divic;
1 A. Let me tell you, then it's not the meeting that I attended. At
2 that meeting where I attended, General Mladic ordered that within
3 24 hours he should not see Captain Dragan in that area.
4 JUDGE KWON: Let's find out whether --
5 MS. GUSTAFSON:
6 Q. Mr. Vasilic --
7 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Whether witness is present or not.
8 MS. GUSTAFSON: That's exactly what I'm going to do. Could we go
9 to page 271 of the English, page 269 of the B/C/S, please.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I know whether this is the same
11 meeting because there is a considerable difference between pages 244
12 and --
13 JUDGE KWON: We are coming to it. I find it's page 246 in
15 MS. GUSTAFSON: Page 271 of the English, page 269 of the B/C/S
17 "Chief MUP Marinko Vasilic."
18 Q. That's you, right, Mr. Vasilic?
19 A. Yes.
20 JUDGE KWON: Let's show him the place of meeting.
21 MS. GUSTAFSON: I don't believe the place is identified,
22 Your Honour.
23 JUDGE KWON: I think it --
24 MS. GUSTAFSON: It just says: "Meeting with representatives of
25 Zvornik municipality in Zvornik." And -- but the notes are continuous,
1 there are no new entries for these several pages --
2 JUDGE KWON: But his name does not appear in the --
3 MS. GUSTAFSON: It doesn't appear as a -- in the list of
4 attendees, but the notes are continuous without a new heading until
5 page 271 when this witness is recorded as speaking. So from the notes it
6 appears clear that the witness was, in fact, present and spoke although
7 he wasn't listed as an attendee.
8 JUDGE KWON: Why don't you put it to the witness?
9 MS. GUSTAFSON: I did and he initially confirmed it. I can put
10 it again.
11 Q. Mr. Vasilic, do you recall now, can you confirm again that you
12 attended this meeting with Dr. Karadzic, General Mladic, and other
13 members of the Zvornik leadership?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, could the date be
15 specified? I do not believe that Mladic could have made 20 or 30 pages
16 of notes at a single meeting.
17 JUDGE KWON: We'll go -- we can skim through the pages. Let's
18 show him the first page first, that's 29th of September, 20 --
19 MS. GUSTAFSON: 30th of June, 1992, page 246 of the English, 244
20 of the B/C/S.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
22 MS. GUSTAFSON:
23 Q. Mr. Vasilic, this is 30th of June, 1992, in Zvornik --
24 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, wait till we have B/C/S version. Do
25 you have the page number, Ms. Gustafson? Yes, it's coming.
1 MS. GUSTAFSON: And there is a list of those present.
2 JUDGE KWON: And then we continue from there.
3 MS. GUSTAFSON: Would Your Honour like me to ask a question now
4 or I'm not sure --
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
6 MS. GUSTAFSON:
7 Q. Mr. Vasilic, you can see a list of people present. You are not
8 listed here, although later in these notes you are listed as making
9 comments. Can you confirm that you were present at this meeting on the
10 30th of June, 1992, in Zvornik, with Dr. Karadzic and General Mladic?
11 A. What can I say? I can say that I don't know when this happened,
12 but there was this meeting on the premises of the Municipal Assembly of
13 Zvornik that was attended by Dr. Karadzic and General Mladic and some
14 other military personnel. There was no mention of setting up a centre, a
15 training centre, that Captain Dragan had asked for. Among other things,
16 General Mladic explicitly insisted that Captain Dragan -- because,
17 actually, I was the one who conveyed this to him at that meeting. I
18 presented the problems that were involved, and I said --
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
20 repeat the last part of his sentence because it was unclear.
21 JUDGE KWON: Could you repeat from "I presented the problems that
22 were involved ..."
23 And speak very slowly.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If necessary, I can repeat my
25 entire thought. I was at this meeting at the Municipal Assembly of
1 Zvornik that was attended by President Radovan Karadzic,
2 General Ratko Mladic, and a number of other persons who I do not know.
3 There were no requests of Captain Dragan's for setting up a training
4 centre. That did not happen there, but I know that General Ratko Mladic
5 insisted that Captain Dragan leave the area of Zvornik within 24 hours,
6 and that is what happened. He took the Vidikovac hotel in Divic on his
7 own and he got people together and started training them, painted some
8 paint on their faces, and these uniforms that they wore, it would really
9 frighten anyone. How could anyone be happy to have them there?
10 JUDGE KWON: Was Captain Dragan also present?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, because he insisted.
12 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Ms. Gustafson.
13 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. Mr. Vasilic, there were a number of complaints by the Zvornik
15 municipal authorities, such as Mr. Grujic and Mr. Mijatovic, about
16 Captain Dragan and his training centre at this meeting; right?
17 A. I don't know whether Mr. Jovo Mijatovic was present.
18 Branko Grujic was certainly present. We all complained about the
19 presence and behaviour of these persons.
20 MS. GUSTAFSON: Okay, if we could go to page 270 of the English,
21 page 268 of the B/C/S.
22 Q. This is Dr. Karadzic speaking and he says:
23 "It would be a shame to abolish the centre. It would be easiest
24 for us to put the incident behind us. The men at the centre are not like
25 Zuca and Crni."
1 Now, first, the centre he's referring to is Captain Dragan's
2 training centre; right?
3 A. I suppose so, I think so, but I do not remember all the things
4 that Mr. Karadzic said or Mr. Mladic said. They were there at that
5 meeting for half an hour, an hour, more than that. But I know, quite
6 simply, that Mladic insisted that this person leave.
7 Q. Okay. And then he says that the men at the training centre are
8 not like Zuca and Crni, so it's clear he is generally familiar with Zuca
9 and Crni. And in your statement you said that you and Mr. Grujic went to
10 Pale in July to report problems by paramilitaries and that Grujic told
11 you that President Karadzic was visibly surprised by the situation in
12 Zvornik. Now, that evidence doesn't fit with this contemporaneous record
13 from the 30th of June, which indicates that Dr. Karadzic was in Zvornik
14 on the 30th of June and was familiar with the paramilitary issues in
15 Zvornik; right?
16 A. I don't know whether Mr. Karadzic knew Captain Dragan. Maybe he
17 did, maybe he didn't, I don't know. And whether he knew of Zuca or
18 whether he heard from someone else about Zuca or some Crni, I don't know,
19 and I don't know about his comments like that. But all members of
20 paramilitary units, no exception whatsoever, were an evil that came to
21 the territory of the municipality of Zvornik. I don't know of
22 Captain Dragan being any better than they are. Maybe he is, but I don't
23 know and I do not have that impression. Well, maybe he as a
24 person but -- well, you know, you will allow me to say when they paint
25 themselves with all that paint, it's like in Vietnam, and then imagine
1 them with rifles too.
2 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could go to page 271 of the English,
3 page 269 of the B/C/S.
4 Q. And again, Mr. Vasilic, this is -- we saw this a few moments ago.
5 This is where you speak and your comments are recorded by General Mladic.
6 On this page you talk about your personnel levels. And if we could go to
7 the next page, you state that:
8 "Security conditions are at a satisfactory level."
9 And your last comment is:
10 "I am very concerned by nicknames. We have no idea who they are
11 or what they are doing."
12 Mr. Vasilic, in your statement and in your evidence today, you --
13 I believe in your evidence today you said that the police were almost
14 held prisoner by paramilitaries, they -- in your statement you say that
15 the police ran away from the paramilitaries in fear of their lives and
16 the paramilitaries were the absolute power in the town. Now, that
17 evidence does not square with your comments when the supreme commander
18 and the chief of the Main Staff come to your municipality and you tell
19 them that security conditions are at a satisfactory level, and the only
20 mention you make of paramilitaries is that you are concerned by nicknames
21 because you don't know who they are or what they're doing. That's right,
22 you're greatly exaggerating in your evidence the power the paramilitaries
23 had in Zvornik at the time; right?
24 A. No, no, no way. That certainly could not have come out of my
25 mouth, that the state of security at the level of the town and
1 municipality is satisfactory. It's not only that it wasn't satisfactory.
2 It was no good at all. Nothing could have been done properly, nothing
3 whatsoever. You could not even carry out an on-site investigation for a
4 traffic accident, let alone robberies and things like that. There were
5 20 armed men that would crop up immediately. There would be one or two
6 policemen on the road, whereas they would have 20 armed men. They would
7 stand on the road and then you'd have to wait. Whenever they felt like
8 moving, then they'd move. And we were arrested, mistreated, beaten, and
9 that Topola wanted to execute me and Brano Grujic. When I could not
10 ensure my own safety, how could I ensure the safety of citizens?
11 So Madam Judge and Your Honours, that is why I left the force
12 after 20 years of professional work. I left the police, absolutely.
13 It's not that I left a supervisory job in the police. I left the force
14 all together because I didn't want to have any fingers pointed at me
16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Vasilic. I no more questions.
17 A. You're welcome.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellency. I'll start
21 with the latest.
22 Could we please have page 268 displayed in this same document.
23 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
24 Q. [Interpretation] While we're waiting, while we're waiting,
25 Mr. Vasilic, the attendees of this course that Captain Dragan organised,
1 where did they come from? Were they locals or had they come from
2 elsewhere too?
3 A. Some people were recruited from elsewhere, but also there were
4 some locals too.
5 Q. Please take a look at what was circled here, where Captain Jokic
7 "They come for training with a recommendation from units and
9 And then please read these four lines. The distinguished
10 Madam Gustafson read this.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the rest of what I said
12 on the next page. The next page in Serbian as well.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Can you continue these two lines, what I said, and then
15 Djokanovic. Could you read that out loud?
16 A. I don't understand.
17 Q. Can you read this out from the screen, these first two lines, my
18 final remarks, and then could you read out what Djokanovic said.
19 A. I don't have that here. I have something in English.
20 Q. Perhaps you're not looking at the right screen. It's the one on
21 the left, that's Serbian. You have two texts in front of you on the
23 A. Yes, half Serbian, half English, but it's all mixed up. And now
24 here there's this list.
25 Q. Then I'm going to read it out. After that I said:
1 "We should have courses ..."
2 Although that's not the way I speak, this is incorrect --
3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic --
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- this is something that was
6 JUDGE KWON: No, you are not giving evidence.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I want someone to read this
8 out so that the witness can see it. Page 160 --
9 JUDGE KWON: No, no. "Although that's not the way I speak, this
10 is incorrect," that is totally inappropriate comment on your part.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I can't bear that improper
12 language is attributed to me. This is illiterate as it is. It is not
13 verbatim, it is not literal.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. And the recruits are in Bijeljina, correct, you see that?
16 A. I can't get my bearings here, it's all mixed up, I can't. I
17 can't accept --
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we do away with the English
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. The top of the page, see?
22 A. 268?
23 Q. Yes, read it out.
24 A. "We should have courses.
25 "The recruits are in Bijeljina.
1 "Commissioner Dragan Djokanovic."
2 Q. Keep on reading. What did Dragan say?
3 A. "Marko, you are going beyond your authority.
4 "Work is done in Divic, there is work and order there, nothing is
5 stolen there."
6 Q. You can stop here. Marko who? Who is he addressing?
7 A. Who is talking to whom?
8 Q. When Dr. Dragan Djokanovic refers to Marko, who is it?
9 A. Marko Pavlovic, commander of the TO staff.
10 Q. Thank you. Was it possible to have a camp for recruits even
11 without Captain Dragan?
12 A. We couldn't have it down there. Someone from the military
13 leadership ought to have decided on that and to assign professional
15 Q. Thank you. Was I in favour of Captain Dragan staying or was I in
16 favour of a training course?
17 A. The way I understood you --
18 MS. GUSTAFSON: [Previous translation continues]...
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- was that a course, training, was
20 needed. Now, as for whether it would be Captain Dragan or someone else,
21 in my understanding was unimportant.
22 JUDGE KWON: I missed you standing. I see your point. That
23 was -- the last part was very leading.
24 Carry on.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 Can we next have D1436.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Since it is not very legible, I'll read out paragraph number 2 so
4 that you can tell us whether it corresponds to the situation.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Sorry, this is about Brcko, the
6 Serb public -- this is about Brcko -- no, no. Page 5 then. Page 5,
7 paragraph 3. Page 5, I don't think this is it. Page 5 of this document.
8 It was shown during cross-examination. In the Serbian version a page
9 before or after this one. There.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. What was read out is the first sentence. Can you continue? I'll
12 read out and you can follow.
13 "Also, the aforementioned groups threatened with carrying out an
14 attack on the Zvornik Public Security Station because the police
15 employees stood up to their looting and robbing. What is interesting to
16 be mentioned is that the same people held in encirclement the government
17 building and the building of the Crisis Staff of four to five hours with
18 military equipment. One of the paramilitary formations belonging to
19 Captain Dragan's unit threatened the government president holding a gun
20 to his throat."
21 Is this correct?
22 A. Yes, it is. These members of paramilitary units came there with
23 their combat vehicles, with three-barrelled guns, and blocked the
24 facilities. It is correct that they threatened with assaulting the
25 police station because the police and local authorities were against
1 their presence there and their conduct.
2 Q. Thank you. Now, you said, but were not allowed to complete, what
3 you had gone through. Perhaps you can explain briefly. You as the
4 authorities, how did you fare? What sort of things did you have to go
6 A. Mr. President, thank you very much for allowing me to address it.
7 At the outset, I need to say that we were not the authorities, we had no
8 power. Power is something you hold in your hands and then you have it.
9 We were simple detainees, prisoners. We were trying to take shelter from
10 dangers elsewhere and yet we were threatened by our own compatriots. We
11 were kept prisoner, I, Brano Grujic, Marko Pavlovic, Milos Pantelic, and
12 several others were held prisoner for five to six hours in the TO staff.
13 Zuca kicked the door and came in with five or six of his men and put guns
14 to the backs of our head and asked us who we were, what we were doing,
15 who authorised us, accused us of protecting the Muslims and so on and so
16 forth. After that, there is -- there was worse. There was a barricade,
17 a roadblock, in the centre of town. Brano Grujic and I as well as the
18 Glinica director were kicked out at gunpoint. Topola, who towers at over
19 2 metres, said that he was tasked with executing us. He was leading us
20 somewhere to execute us and people gathered. We begged to be released.
21 We told him, "Do whatever you like, just let us go." And the next day I
22 and Branko Grujic, as the chief of station and the president of
23 municipality -- actually, I resigned. As of that day, I no longer
24 entered the police station. This is the kind of authorities we were.
25 There's more but ...
1 Q. Thank you. On page 14 -- sorry, 74, line 14, I think, there is
2 mention of Miljanovic whose buses were used to transport prisoners.
3 Could Miljanovic say no? Could he deny the buses?
4 A. Miko Miljanovic, who was a policeman, escorted the inhabitants of
5 Divic on a bus to Celopek with the intention of allowing those people to
6 go further afield because at Divic no one could guarantee their safety.
7 Q. Thank you. It was my mistake. The director of Drinatrans, could
8 he refuse to provide the buses?
9 A. I see no way how he could have, no way.
10 Q. Thank you. On the topic of investigation, the investigation of
11 Drinjaca, can you tell us how many policemen did the reserve police
12 station in Drinjaca have and what were their occupations as well as where
13 they hailed from?
14 A. The reserve police station in Drinjaca perhaps had up to ten
15 people we most. There was one active-duty policeman and the rest were
16 locksmiths, carpenters, craftsmen from the nearby villages, honest,
17 decent people who never had an argument with anyone, let alone use
19 Q. Thank you. Could they stand up to this Matic and his men?
20 A. I don't think so. Even if they had a greater force. If I was
21 unable to stand up to them, as I am and I'm not afraid of many things and
22 I had more men than I see -- I don't see how they could have done it up
24 Q. Thank you. When was Lieutenant Matic killed?
25 A. If my information is correct, then it was sometime in June in
1 Vitinice. I'm not stating anything decidedly, but that's the extent of
2 my knowledge.
3 Q. What year?
4 A. 1992.
5 Q. Do you know when the incident took place?
6 A. Which one?
7 Q. In Drinjaca.
8 A. In Drinjaca, in 1992. I don't know what month, perhaps May,
9 early April -- actually, end of April, around that time.
10 Q. On page 59 you were asked about the TO plus Arkan, i.e., who
11 liberated Zvornik. Tell us this please: When the volunteers came before
12 the VRS was established, who did they report to in the municipality, to
13 the police or the TO?
14 A. The TO. In principle, they had nothing to do with the police.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 A. Perhaps I can explain. As far as I know, while they came
17 individually or in groups of two or three, they were made part of the TO.
18 But when their numbers increased, then they split up and established
19 their own groups. And I dare say that later on they didn't even obey the
20 brigade commander or anyone. No one controlled them.
21 Q. Thank you. Now that you saw the excerpt from Mladic's diary
22 where mention is made of Zuca and Crni and of me knowing, can you say
23 whether you and Brano came to see me in June or July? This arrival of
24 ours in Zvornik, does it have anything to do with the situation there?
25 A. I can't say anything decidedly, but I'm inclined to say that it
1 was July, although I am not certain. But I think it was July.
2 Q. Did you know why we came there and assembled you? What was the
3 reason of our arrival?
4 A. I had not been informed prior to it, but I supposed you were
5 there to learn what was going on, what the situation was, and to gather
6 information. I was there briefly only.
7 Q. What do you know about the preparation of arrest operation? When
8 did it begin and when did it end?
9 A. Upon my departure and when Brano left, perhaps two or three days
10 around the 29th or the 30th of July, I learned, although I wasn't in the
11 police, that strong special forces arrived from the RS MUP and that in
12 co-ordination with the military police they arrested if not all then at
13 least most, around a hundred men, members of the paramilitary forces and
14 that they were taken to Bijeljina to prison. Some were apparently
15 prosecuted in -- before RS courts, others before the courts of the
16 Republic of Serbia.
17 I also know that Mr. Zuco, two months ago, took part in a TV
18 broadcast called "Happy," where he admitted to his brother being mentally
19 ill and under influence and that in that state he committed the crimes in
20 Celopek. Had there not been about -- the arrest, the question is how
21 long would these executions of theirs have lasted?
22 Q. In line 15 you said he was doped and here we have that he was
23 under the influence.
24 A. He was a drug addict. Then he was asked, "Well, you knew what he
25 was like." And it seems he tried to keep him under control that way.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we briefly have P6405 or
2 65 ter 25215. Page 97.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. You were shown it today. I'll read out from line 4. Please
5 listen to it.
6 [In English] "That was talked about for about a half of year, and
7 I guess I heard ..."
8 [Interpretation] Does it say here that you know for sure or that
9 you assume so?
10 A. I didn't understand the question, but I understand what you read
12 Q. I'll read only that part. [In English] "... and I guess I
13 heard ..."
14 JUDGE KWON: Do not lead the witness.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I wanted to
16 ascertain on this page in several places whether he knew or he guessed or
17 he heard or believed so. Well, on page 9 --
18 JUDGE KWON: We can read it. "I guess I heard about it," it
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. That was the page, and
21 during cross-examination the question was put to him as if he were
23 And my last question has to do with P2591. P2591. Item III, can
24 we go to the beginning. This is about the establishment of the Serbian
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Can you read item III to us. It isn't long. Please read it out
4 A. "Decision on the establishment of the Serbian municipality of
6 Q. Item III.
7 A. "The local communes, inhabited places, and parts of the local
8 communes of the cities, as by Article 2 of this decision, are being
9 separated from the municipality of Zvornik."
10 Q. Was there an option of this being implemented by force and
11 include a Muslim settlement in this Serbian municipality?
12 A. I replied a number of times that I wasn't involved in politics,
13 but from what I heard and learned by talking to people, I can say that
14 the intention was to talk and try to agree and solve problems in a
15 peaceful manner. If necessary, the municipality can be split into a
16 Serbian part and a Muslim part. I have never heard the war -- war as an
17 option -- being mentioned as an option.
18 Q. Why did the Serbs think that Snagovo should be part of their
19 municipality? Why only one Snagovo? Because there are three places
20 called Snagovo.
21 A. Because that Snagovo has a Serbian population.
22 Q. What about Snagovo Donje and Snagovo Gornje?
23 A. These are inhabited by Muslims.
24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Vasilic, for your evidence.
25 A. You're welcome.
1 JUDGE KWON: Well, that concludes your evidence, Mr. Vasilic. On
2 behalf of the Chamber, I would like to thank you for your coming to
3 The Hague to give it. Now you are free to go.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.
5 JUDGE KWON: We'll have a long weekend and resume on Wednesday at
6 9.00. The hearing is adjourned.
7 [The witness withdrew]
8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.38 p.m.,
9 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 19th day of
10 June, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.