1 Friday, 21 June 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 11.03 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone. For the record, I just note
7 that we start late today in order to give the accused some time for his
8 preparation of his examination, because he couldn't have access to the
9 internet or the e-court from the Detention Unit.
10 MR. ROBINSON: Thank you very much, Mr. President. We appreciate
11 the Chamber accommodating us for that.
12 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Excellencies. Good
14 morning, to everybody.
15 WITNESS: BOGDAN SUBOTIC [Resumed]
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]
18 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, General Subotic.
19 A. Good morning.
20 Q. Yesterday I asked you about the number of those who were released
21 from Keraterm and Omarska. On page 45 yesterday, Mr. Tieger suggested
22 that there were thousands of Muslim civilians who were detained in our
23 prisons. Can you tell us about our policy towards civilians of other
25 A. When we're talking about the policy of the state leadership,
1 there were no plans about any prisons at all. The policies were such
2 that what happened during conflict and during combat was considered to
3 be -- how should I call it? That's how things happen in wars. There are
4 prisoners, there are wounded, there are killed, and so on. In other
5 words, those who are imprisoned are stationed or kept in some buildings,
6 in company buildings, in schools and barracks on both sides. And now
7 this is what I could say about the state policy because that's what I
8 know, and now how that functioned in practice is an entirely different
10 Q. Thank you. What were the instructions and orders that arrived
11 from the office concerning civilians and their rights?
12 A. The instructions and orders were those that were prescribed in
13 the Law on National Defence, and that was done very precisely and very
14 clearly. The law prescribes everything correctly and precisely. In
15 every sense, I and the government, the ministries and so on insisted on
16 the compliance with the law. Nobody can deny that things were done in
17 that way. However, a war is a war. People can do all sorts of things.
18 Some observed the regulations, some didn't. I'm sure that there were
19 some problem there, that there were mistakes made, but when it comes to
20 rules and regulations, and when it comes to the state leadership,
21 everything was clear. Because of those mistakes and because of those
22 regulations, there were some discords, we have already discussed that,
23 and I already mentioned a lot of those in my statement.
24 Q. On page 46, Mr. Tieger quoted from a letter from the
25 Ministry of the Interior and referred to the Crisis Staffs and some units
1 of the army who were requested to collect as many civilians to be
2 exchanged. What was the position of the minister about those requests?
3 Did the police met those requests? Did the police meet those requests?
4 On the page 46 of the transcript, you cannot find it in your statement.
5 A. Is that the transcript from 2006?
6 Q. No, that's yesterday's transcript. Mr. Tieger quoted from a
7 letter written by the Ministry of the Interior, and in that letter he
8 says that that's what was requested by the MUP. Did the minister support
9 that or did he raise his voice against it? Did the MUP comply with those
11 JUDGE KWON: How could the witness answer the question without
12 seeing the letter?
13 Yes, Mr. Tieger.
14 MR. TIEGER: It's also a mischaracterisation of the quote from
15 the report of the July 17th, 1992. Dr. Karadzic said -- anyway.
16 JUDGE KWON: Let's upload it.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect, Mr. Tieger
18 did not display the letter. He only read one part from it.
19 JUDGE KWON: But then if you'd like to put a question, you should
20 read correctly. Let us see the letter then in any event.
21 MR. TIEGER: Excuse me, Your Honour, just for purposes of
22 responding to that, I mean, Dr. Karadzic can either quote back accurately
23 what was put to the witness previously or show the document itself. He
24 did neither.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I must say that Mr. Tieger did not
1 mention the document number. He quoted from it. Page 46:
2 [In English] [As read]The army Crisis Staffs and War Presidencies
3 have requested that the army round up or capture as many Muslims as --
4 Muslim units as possible and delete [phoen] them."
5 [Interpretation] And so on. This should be P1096. However,
6 Mr. Tieger never mentioned the number. Maybe he would like to call it up
8 MR. TIEGER: It is mentioned explicitly on page 40123 of the
9 transcript at line 11.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My page numbers are different.
11 Your Excellencies, I would like to have the same page numbers,
12 and I would like to be able to upload from my room. I'm really totally
13 incapacitated. I'm in a very unfavourable position.
14 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber is in the same position as well. The
15 page numbers are being updated the next day. That's my understanding.
16 There is no problem if you refer to by your page number, 46.
17 MR. TIEGER: And, Mr. President, more to the point, it was
18 mentioned in exactly the same spot where that quote is mentioned. It's
19 not just going to occur on some later page that can't be found so that
20 the -- I made the page reference here so everyone would know where it is,
21 but it's right at the spot where the quote was -- was -- was made so
22 it's -- it's -- there's no difficulty in knowing that it was P1096 and in
23 not asserting the day afterward that no citation was provided.
24 JUDGE KWON: So if you read that line, Mr. Tieger said at the
25 17th Assembly session and that by way was P1096. You should have it on
1 your page as well.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On page 46 I don't have it. There
3 is no citation. There is no exhibit number. Could I now call up page 4
4 in the Serbian version, page 4 in e-court.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. General, sir, look at the first paragraph from the top of the
7 page. This was quoted to you?
8 A. I don't see page 4.
9 Q. This is page 3, but it is page 4 in e-court.
10 A. Where it says the army and the Crisis Staffs?
11 Q. Yes. How do you understand the position of the
12 Ministry of the Interior about these requests?
13 A. Please bear with me for a moment while I read this. I understand
14 it in this way: The minister of the interior - I was in the government
15 at the time so I remember - he opposed that. He criticises the army,
16 Crisis Staffs and War Presidencies, and he says that they have requested
17 to round up or capture as many civilians. The minister of the interior
18 says that the conditions in some of these camps are poor. There's no
19 food. Individuals sometimes do not observe international norms and so
21 Q. Thank you. Can we see the following page. Look at the second
22 paragraph where it says it was pointed out --
23 A. It was pointed out that the priority of the national and crime
24 prevention services is detect [as interpreted] war crimes, provide
25 documentation, on-site investigation, photos, expert testimonies, medical
1 findings, and file criminal reports. Documents are also provided for war
2 crimes committed by Serbs.
3 Q. How does this tally with what you know about the position of the
4 government and the ministry about these issues?
5 A. This is correct. Both things are correct and were correctly put
6 by the Ministry of the Interior.
7 Q. Can we now look at page 8 in e-court.
8 MR. TIEGER: Excuse me.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
10 MR. TIEGER: This document was put to the witness originally
11 because of his assertion that he had no way of knowing how many people
12 were in camps, so he's directed that particular part of the report. Now
13 Dr. Karadzic appears to be using the report generally for various
14 purposes in a leading fashion. So before we turn to this part of the
15 report and the witness is directed to some portions of it which the
16 accused will presumably ask him to affirm or not, we should know exactly
17 how this arises from cross, what the witness's information is about the
18 subject that may be at issue, and only then turn to portions of the
19 report as it may be necessary as is -- as has been repeatedly emphasised
20 to the accused.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic. Let us collapse the document.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can give up on the further
23 examination about the document, but it was pointed out that the witness
24 affirmed such treatment of civilians. The general was a minister in the
25 government, and I would like him to be able to see the entire document.
1 JUDGE KWON: If you move to another topic, please move on.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll change topic. I'm giving up
3 on this document.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. General, sir, there was a lot of talk about Koricanske Stijene.
6 May I be allowed to ask you whether during the summer of 1992 the
7 conference on Bosnia-Herzegovina continued under the chair of Cutileiro
8 and Carrington and did I attend those conferences?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you know where I was from the 21st to 29th August 1992?
11 A. I believe you were in London. I don't know whether I'm right,
12 but I know that you were somewhere abroad.
13 Q. Thank you. Did the two of us talk to each other during that
14 time? Were you in Krajina before the 30, before I returned, and then on
15 the 30th we went there again together? When did you visit Krajina for
16 the first time to discuss Koricanske Stijene?
17 A. That was when you arrived at Pale. I can't remember the exact
18 date when that was.
19 Q. Thank you. When did you establish that the military had nothing
20 to do with that? Under whose authority was that incident after that?
21 A. I established that at the meeting in Banja Luka. As far as I
22 remember, it was Sunday. A meeting was organised involving all the
23 protagonists - let me not enumerate them: The police, the prosecutor's
24 office, the judiciary - that meeting took most of the morning. They
25 reported to me about those things very correctly, and then the entire
1 team went to the site to look at what we could see. However, there was
2 nothing special for me to see there. In any case, I transferred or I
3 passed on the duties and tasks. At that meeting I learned that the army
4 was not involved at all. Nobody even mentioned the army.
5 Q. Thank you. From then on under whose authority was that matter?
6 A. I know that the case was taken over by the judiciary, the
7 investigating judiciary teams and so on. I returned on that same day to
8 Banja Luka and then on to Pale, and I submitted a report as to what I had
9 done. I had made notes at the meeting, and I also submitted those notes.
10 Q. Thank you. Did you notice that there were actions or efforts to
11 cover up some parts of that crime?
12 A. No, I didn't notice that. In the part that I participated in,
13 there were a lot of people involved from various institutions, so nobody
14 could sweep anything under the carpet. It could not be covered up. They
15 put in place measures. They organised actions, and all those actions
16 were done after my departure. I no longer participated in that.
17 Q. Thank you. Do you know if an investigating judge was involved,
18 whether investigators were involved, whether forensic experts were
19 involved? At that meeting was it ever mentioned who was supposed to be
21 A. As far as I can remember, it was mentioned. I don't remember the
22 names of the judges in question, although I knew some of them. In any
23 case, it was said very precisely at that place who was supposed to do
25 Q. Thank you. Were there indicia, was there evidence, were there
1 indications that Simo Drljaca had either ordered them or allowed them to
2 do what they did?
3 A. At that place at that time at that meeting, I did not learn
4 anything concretely. I did not note any such thing. What Mr. Tieger
5 said yesterday is true and that is that it was said at the time that
6 there were three people who were the main protagonists of the whole
7 situation, that they had left what Mr. Tieger said yesterday. Let me not
8 try and find the exact quote. I adhere by that, because that's what I
9 noted at the meeting. How -- how accurate that was, whether it was true
10 or not, I can't be a judge of that because I didn't have any information
11 to that effect. That was all the information that I had at the time.
12 Q. Thank you. On page 15, but then I have this new page numbering.
13 After 78 again I have 1 in terms of yesterday. That was some mention --
14 or, rather, you asked about pressure, and you said that Republika Srpska
15 was exposed to pressures exerted by international factors every day. Can
16 you tell us whether this pressure proved to be justified or, rather,
17 founded on some truth?
18 A. Absolutely not. Throughout the war this propaganda was really
19 something that could not be proven, but we in Republika Srpska could not
20 do anything about that or against that.
21 Q. Thank you. What were the responses of our services? Actually,
22 did we check what the international community would send by way of some
23 kind of objection or information?
24 A. Well, yes, we did check for the most part, and always -- I mean,
25 I know and I have quite a few things written down. Your talks with
1 Akashi, in particular, and so on and others too, in terms of
2 Professor Koljevic, that convoy, et cetera. Always there were
3 inaccuracies there. It was all sort of muddled. It was always the army
4 that was blamed and Republika Srpska, as if -- well, although the army on
5 several occasions found ammunition and other things. There were all
6 sorts of things.
7 Q. Thank you. A letter was shown asking for access to detained
8 persons in Srebrenica. Did we have a prison in Srebrenica before or
9 after the fall of Srebrenica? Did we have a prison for anyone in that
11 A. As far as I know we did not have a prison, but -- I mean, I did
12 not hear of us having a prison there, so I cannot guarantee 100 per cent
13 that there wasn't some - how do I put this? - some situation when these
14 people were brought together in certain areas so they would not be
15 directly involved in conflict.
16 Q. Thank you, General, but let me go back to the previous question.
17 Your answer was that we asked for checks. What did our services tell us
18 in terms of the accuracy?
19 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry, Mr. Karadzic. Where did the witness say
20 the Serbs asked for checks?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Line 20. Page 9, line 20.
22 JUDGE KWON: But, Mr. Subotic, yesterday when asked by
23 Mr. Tieger, that you said there's -- you said you are not aware of such
24 pressure, and you could not discuss it. Do you remember having said so?
25 Shall I read out what you said?
1 "Mr. Tieger, the international community was pressuring
2 Republika Srpska every minute, every moment, and you are asking me now to
3 split hairs. I was always under pressure, not just myself but everybody
4 in Republika Srpska. How could I have known about every instance of
5 pressure by the international community? These pressures were there
6 every day. So I will tell you what I know sincerely. I'm not afraid of
7 anything. But don't impose any mention of any pressure on me that I'm
8 not aware of it. There's no reason for that. I'm not aware of this.
9 Therefore, I cannot discuss it."
10 Having said so, how could you now talk about a check that was
11 done on your part?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not that I carried out checks.
13 It was organs of the army, organs of the MUP, then those teams of
14 Professor Koljevic's and so on. It's not that I took part in these
16 JUDGE KWON: Then why did you not answer so yesterday to the
17 question of Mr. Tieger?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's the way I've said now.
19 There's a wish to explain this more precisely. As for this question that
20 Karadzic put to me, this was done by different people so I do not have
21 that specific information that I could present.
22 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. General, sir, perhaps it's my fault for this confusion. I'm not
25 asking you about any specific case today. I'm asking you about this
1 phenomenon of international observers raising certain objections. And
2 then what did we do about that and these checks? Did they confirm such
4 A. Well, they did not. Our people always said what it was that was
5 not right there and what it was that was right. I know that. That's the
6 way it was at all these discussions. So there was no reason -- well,
7 however, this was because differences were pretty big between the claims
8 made by these international factors in relation to what we were
9 experiencing on the ground, the army, the humanitarian agencies, and
10 others who were working on this.
11 Q. Thank you. When I asked you whether there was some prison in
12 Srebrenica for those who were missing, I did not mean during combat and
13 in the immediate aftermath. What I meant was during those letters, did
14 we have any other prison in that area except for Batkovic?
15 A. No. No, not that I know of. Not that I know of. I don't know
16 whether there were some.
17 Q. Thank you. Was Batkovic available to the International Red Cross
18 whenever they wanted access?
19 A. Yes. As far as I know, whenever --
20 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, but please put a pause between the
21 questions and the answers.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. We apologise to the
23 interpreters and to the participants.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. So, please, could we pause. Could you tell the Trial Chamber
1 roughly how many POWs did we have? How many people were taken prisoner
2 in combat from the beginning of the war until the 10th of July, 1995?
3 A. Well, I remember -- I mean, some conversation. I actually have
4 that written down in my statement too. About 20, or a bit over 20.000.
5 Q. Thank you. What happened to them?
6 A. To tell you the truth, quite frankly, I don't know exactly. For
7 the most part they were tried, investigated. How all of that ended up, I
8 don't know. To be quite frank, I am not aware of that.
9 Q. Thank you. Do you know whether there were any pardons that came
10 from me in order to carry out exchanges even for those who had committed
12 A. Yes. I remember that kind of thing. I don't remember to what
13 degree, but this did happen.
14 Q. Thank you. Were there unilateral releases from our sides
15 allowing people to go to third countries?
16 A. Yes. Yes. All of this was made possible for them. They could
17 go to third countries. They had very favourable conditions. As far as I
18 know, quite a few did go there.
19 Q. Thank you. As for these exchanges, in addition to these pardons
20 and unilateral releases, did the president's office deal with these
21 simple exchanges? Whose authority was that?
22 A. We had organs for exchanges of prisoners of war, and the
23 president's office did not deal with that from that point of view. It
24 was these organs that had been tasked with doing that. From time to time
25 we did receive such information. At any rate, this was an organised
2 Q. Thank you. Out of these 20.000 POWs approximately before
3 July 1995, did you receive any information or documents or evidence that
4 there were executions that would make it incumbent upon you to be careful
5 with regard to each and every other situation when prisoners were taken?
6 A. No. I never heard of any such document, and I never saw any such
8 Q. Were there things that happened?
9 A. To tell you the truth, I don't remember.
10 Q. Thank you. Now I'd like to ask you about directives. Can you
11 tell the Trial Chamber what type of document a directive of the president
12 of the republic is -- or, rather, of the Supreme Commander?
13 A. That is a strategic type of document. That is to say the
14 uppermost type of document.
15 Q. What happens to it once it returns to the Main Staff?
16 A. I don't really understand this question. Could you be a bit more
18 Q. What does the Main Staff use it for? Is it directly implemented
19 or what does the Main Staff do on the basis of that directive?
20 A. Well, a directive is prepared in the Main Staff, and it is
21 adopted in the Main Staff and it remains in the Main Staff. And on the
22 basis of that directive, they have to organise operations.
23 Q. Thank you. And these operations are ordered by which documents?
24 A. Operations are ordered through orders issued by commanders of
25 corps, brigades, and so on. That is to say on the basis of what the
1 Main Staff had sent to these commands.
2 Q. Thank you. Yesterday, your answer was that you did not know why
3 the directive was sent to the 1st Krajina Corps. In the light of what
4 you told us just now, can you tell us what was supposed to be sent to the
5 1st Corps?
6 A. An order. A directive is not sent to corps. Only orders are
7 sent to corps, different types of orders, orders for higher-level units
8 and orders for lower-level units. Commanders of these units write these
9 orders, that is to say commanders of these formations.
10 Q. Thank you. A moment ago you said that directives are created in
11 the Main Staff. Were there are directives that were not created at the
12 Main Staff, but, rather, at the office, those that have to do with
13 humanitarian matters rather than combat?
14 A. Yes, these were shorter directives, and I think that there are
15 such documents.
16 JUDGE KWON: That's a very leading question, Mr. Karadzic.
17 MR. TIEGER: As always, and he should be reminded of this, it
18 continues to reduce whatever probative value the accused hopes to gain
19 from this tactic.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. General, sir, who drafted the directives that were created in the
22 Presidency and that were not combat related?
23 A. I created some of them. Some we worked on together, and people
24 from other ministries took part in them, those that had to do with these
25 events and these problems.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please call up on our
3 screens -- half of the screen, actually, P838, and the other half of the
4 screen D104, in Serbian at that. And could the participants please refer
5 to the translations.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We do not have the
8 JUDGE KWON: Interpreters do not have that possibility, so when
9 you read the document, please read very slowly.
10 I know P838 is a directive 7, but what is D104?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] D104 is a directive. These are two
12 directives that were created. Now we're going to ask the general where
13 each one of them was created and in the drafting of which one he took
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, this directive on the
16 right-hand side, the office of the president to the Main Staff --
17 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. For the record, the witness is
18 indicating D104, which is a directive of 11th of March, 1993.
19 Yes, please continue.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes. So to the Main Staff of
21 the Army of Republika Srpska. I'm not going to read the letterhead, just
22 the directive:
23 "Directive, Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska shall in
24 the future as well enable unhindered passage and protection for
25 shipments, equipment and, staff extending assistance that is being
1 provided to the civilian population of the other side.
2 "2. Ban abuse for military purposes of food supplies --"
3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Subotic, Mr. Subotic, please concentrate on --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes?
5 JUDGE KWON: -- answering the question. Mr. Karadzic asked you:
6 Where was each one of these created, and in the drafting of which you
7 took part.
8 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. General, sir, can you say where the directive on the right-hand
11 side, D104 drafted -- was drafted? Who signed it? What's the protocol
12 number? Who's stamp it is?
13 A. Well, the directive is from the office of the president of the
14 republic. You signed it. The stamp is yours. Therefore, we created it
15 in the office.
16 Q. Thank you. What about the protocol? Whose is that?
17 A. The protocol is also from Pale. It's ours, dated the
18 11th of March, 1993, the cabinet of the president.
19 Q. Thank you. And what does the 01 indicate?
20 A. 01, yes. 01.87/93. I think that's the first directive as far as
21 I can recall.
22 Q. All right. Well could you please look at the same elements on
23 the page to the left. Where was it created? Who --
24 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Mr. Subotic, at one point of time
25 you said in case of documents you drafted, the protocol number should be
1 02. Do you remember having said so?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. That was just in reference to
3 the stamp, 02. When I personally drafted a document, then the stamp used
4 a 02. This stamp here is 01, meaning that it's the president's.
5 JUDGE KWON: Does it mean that you were not involved in drafting
6 of the document?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I did take part. I did.
8 But the president directly signed it. When the president did not
9 directly sign it, then the 02 stamp would be used, but the president
10 would issue an order or would approve that I do that.
11 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
12 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. General, sir, this number 2 that you are talking about, where is
16 it? When you sign it and send it, it would still be the president's
17 office, but where do you see this 2?
18 A. On the stamp. On the stamp. This is the Republika Srpska, the
19 president of the republic, but then it would also say 2. That would be
20 the number on the stamp.
21 Q. Thank you. Could you please read the letterhead on the left-hand
22 side document to see where it was drafted, and what is the protocol
24 A. This is the number of the Supreme Command of Republika Srpska,
25 dated the 8th of March, 1995, or it could be the 9th. I'm not sure.
1 It's a little bit blurred here. It was sent to the command of the
2 1st and 2nd Krajina Corps, the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, the IBK, the
3 Herzegovina, the Drina, and so on and so forth.
4 Q. All right. Thank you very much. Could we please look at the
5 last page so that we could see the signature and the stamp on this
6 document on the left-hand side.
7 A. Could the document please be scrolled up.
8 Q. Well, can we look at one page but last. This is an attached or
9 an accompanying document. And could we please zoom in on bottom part of
10 the page?
11 A. The stamp says "Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska," and
12 the signature is Supreme Commander Dr. Radovan Karadzic. This is what I
13 said, that this was done in Han Pijesak, that it was drafted without my
14 presence, and you can see that this seal, this stamp, proves it, and that
15 I did not know about the directive or its implementation. This is
16 100 per cent proof of that.
17 Q. Thank you. So who was it then who drafted this? Was it the
18 Supreme Command or --
19 A. It was done by Main Staff, and they gave it to you to sign.
20 Q. Thank you. Can we look at P4818, please -- 4481. The
21 interpretation gave it to you is not quite precise.
22 A. It means to trick. Perhaps there's another expression, "to
23 plant," "to trick." Perhaps the gentlemen can understand.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What is written now in the
25 transcript is not an issue. It's the answer -- it's not a question.
1 It's an answer by the witness. The first and second sentences are by me,
2 and then the rest of that is the answer of the witness. [In English]
3 "It means trick and perhaps there is another expression ..."
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].
5 Q. Thank you. A little bit earlier you were talking about what was
6 happening with the directives. Are you able to tell us what this
7 document is about?
8 A. As far as I'm concerned -- as far as I'm concerned as the chef de
9 cabinet of the president of the republic, this document, as far as I'm
10 concerned, is a document by the Main Staff. It's not a document of the
11 Supreme Command or by the Supreme Commander.
12 Q. Thank you. Could you please now look at this document issued by
13 the Drina Corps based on the directive. Are you able to look at it? You
14 were talking about orders and commands. What is this document?
15 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. The witness just now said this is
16 the document of the Main Staff? Did you say so?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It's a document of the
18 Main Staff, because it has the stamp of the Main Staff.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness is talking about the
20 previous document.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the previous one, the
22 directive. Because no military document --
23 JUDGE KWON: Now, Mr. -- no, you said so already. We are now
24 talking about this document which is in front of you.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, you mean the Drina Corps
2 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Are you able to tell us what it means order for active combat?
5 A. "Zapovest" is an order which can encompass the brigade as the top
6 possible level.
7 Q. Could we look at the next page, please, item 2. In English it's
8 page 3, and could you please read item 2 so that you can tell us what the
9 gist is.
10 A. The command of the Drina Corps, pursuant to directive number 7 of
11 the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska and on the basis of the
12 situation in the corps area of responsibility has the task of carrying
13 out offensive activities with free forces deep in the Drina Corps zone
14 as soon as possible in order to split apart the enclaves of Zepa and
15 Srebrenica and to reduce them to their urban areas.
16 Q. Thank you. Are you able to tell us -- I think that you didn't
17 read all the numbers. You said directive 7 and 7/1. Do you see that?
18 A. Yes, just one moment, please.
19 Q. First line.
20 A. Ah, first line. The first line of defence.
21 Q. The first line of item 2.
22 A. Item 2, the command of the Drina Corps pursuant to operation,
23 directive number 7 and 7/1 of the Main Staff.
24 Q. Ah, all right. Thank you. So whose are these -- whose
25 directives are these, number 7 and 7/1?
1 A. Well, the directives 7 should be the directive that was drafted
2 at the staff. 7/1 is now kind of amended directive, one that as soon as
3 it's 7/1 means there's been some amendment.
4 Q. Thank you. Can we now get the one page but last in the Serbian
5 and page 7 in the English. Are you able to tell us -- it's a little bit
6 blurry, but it says "Security organs." This is the fourth line from the
8 A. Security organs.
9 Q. Perhaps page 5 is clean, but that is also --
10 A. Yes, yes, I can read it. Security organs and military police
11 will indicate the areas for the Assembly and security -- and security --
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we show page 5 to the witness,
13 please. It's -- it's much clearer. There should be another page 5.
14 JUDGE KWON: Does this part arise from the cross-examination?
15 What part of cross-examination are you dealing with now?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] To the part that refers to the
17 directives and their consequences so that we can see how these directives
18 are worked through.
19 JUDGE KWON: Let us see. Yes, please continue.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The security organs and military
21 police will indicate the areas for the assembly and security of prisoners
22 of war and war booty.
23 "In dealing with prisoners of war and the civilian population,
24 adhere in every way to the Geneva Conventions.
25 "The security organs --"
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Thank you. Thank you, General, sir. In yesterday's transcript,
3 page 4, lines 2 to 5, it was suggested to you that the text in the
4 directive, direct 7, is illegal, and you agreed that that should not be
5 in the directive. So how is it worked through further? How is this
6 sentence developed further here? How does this paragraph fit into that?
7 A. It does not fit in. This sentence does not fit in that other
8 text, because this is proper and correct what is stated here.
9 Q. Thank you. You mentioned a little bit earlier that directive 7/1
10 must have had some kind of change. Can we look at paragraph P4226 --
11 actually, no. Exhibit P2246.
12 Could we look at the English version, and can we zoom in a little
14 A. Yes, can we zoom in a little bit? All right. Very well. Can we
15 zoom in a little bit more to make the letters bigger? All right. That's
16 good enough.
17 Q. Could you please tell us first when it was drafted and who
18 drafted it.
19 A. It was drafted by the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska
20 on the 31st of March, 1995.
21 Q. Thank you. Can we now look at the next page, please. Can we
22 zoom a little bit, please. I think it's page 3 in the English. Could
23 you please read the task for paragraph 2, just the first sentence.
24 A. "Based on directive number 7, the Army of Republika Srpska has
25 the task, first --"
1 Q. All right, General, just that. So could you say whether this
2 directive stems from directive 7?
3 A. According this, yes.
4 Q. Thank you. Can we now look at page 5 in English and in Serbian.
5 Can we look item 5.3, Drina Corps.
6 A. Yes, it's very small. Can we zoom in on that?
7 Q. General, sir, could you read 5.3, that paragraph, and read what
8 is stated as the task for the Drina Corps. Can you please read it to
9 yourself and then say whether that sentence that you said was illegal is
10 there, whether it's being repeated here in brackets. Read it to
11 yourself. Just read up to the end of that paragraph, up to 5.4.
12 A. There is absolutely not a single word from that other text, and
13 it has nothing in common with that other text.
14 Q. And so would that be that change, then, that you talked about?
15 A. Probably that is that change. This is written properly, and that
16 sentence is not there. There isn't even a part of it there.
17 Q. Thank you. And this directive 7.1, does it task the Drina Corps
18 to capture Srebrenica?
19 A. No, just to separate, and there are specific tasks mentioned
21 Q. Thank you. General, sir, now we will move on to the topic of the
22 sessions of the Supreme Command. You were asked about that. In
23 paragraph ...
24 [Defence counsel confer]
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to call up P2242, but I'm
1 not sure. Please bear with me for a moment. P22042, it is a diary that
2 was kept by my secretary. Can we look at the entry made on the
3 16th of March, 1995. It is a meeting that you attended and that you
4 already mentioned in your evidence.
5 JUDGE KWON: I think it's page 33 in both versions.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. General, sir, could you please look at line 2 under the
8 16th of May, 1995 -- or, rather, the 16 of March, 1995. In line 2 it
9 says: "Between 11.0 5 and 15.0 5, Tolimir, Milovanovic, and Subotic were
10 in the office." That's the second bigger part where Drago Simic is the
11 first entry.
12 A. Yes. Drago Simic at 16.05. It says at 1100 hours, Tolimir,
13 Subotic, from 11.05 to 15.05.
14 Q. Who is the first person?
15 A. The first --
16 Q. Is it Milovanovic?
17 A. Just a moment, let me find it.
18 Q. Is this General Milovanovic?
19 A. I can't find that. I found Tolimir and myself.
20 Q. Before Tolimir. Before Tolimir?
21 JUDGE KWON: We collapse English for the moment and zoom in.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is excellent now.
23 JUDGE KWON: Probably you need to explain what this is about.
24 General Subotic. Mr. Subotic.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Yes, yes.
1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Subotic. Yes.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
3 JUDGE KWON: Do you remember Mira and Milijana who were the
4 assistants to the secretary for Mr. Karadzic?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 JUDGE KWON: And do you know they kept a notebook to maintain --
7 to arrange his agenda?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
9 JUDGE KWON: Do you know they put first minus or a hyphen and
10 then when that was -- that appointment was implemented they put it into a
11 plus or a cross.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A plus. Yes, yes.
13 JUDGE KWON: So you know that.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This is Milovanovic, Tolimir,
17 and Subotic. There was no other Milovanovic.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Thank you. General, sir, this was one day after the directive 7
20 was sent to the 1st Corps. Can you tell us whether during that period of
21 four hours what was discussed? What did the four of discuss during those
22 four hours? What did we discuss? What were the problems at stake at
23 that moment?
24 A. As far as I can remember, the problems were of the nature that
25 can be found in the order by the Drina Corps. As far as I can remember,
1 that's what we discussed the most, what needed to be done, and that's
2 what we have just seen just a minute ago.
3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Subotic, I don't follow your answer. You said:
4 "... the problems were of the nature that can be found in the
5 order by the Drina Corps."
6 Could you expand?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I mean we talked about that
8 operation, as far as I can remember.
9 JUDGE KWON: What operation? Did you mean the -- but I think
10 that Operation Krivaja 95 was drafted some time in June or July, if my
11 memory's correct. We are talking about March now, and we are talking
12 about March 16th, and Mr. Karadzic pointed and told you that the day
13 after -- on the day after, that is on the 17th of March, directive 7 was
14 sent out to the corps by the Main Staff by General Milovanovic.
15 Now, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]
17 JUDGE KWON: So now you remember what you discussed.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Very well, yes, yes.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Thank you. General, sir, at that meeting did we read the
22 JUDGE KWON: No.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. At that meeting were there discussions to the effect --
25 JUDGE KWON: No. It's leading. I asked what the witness
1 discussed with these generals together with Mr. Karadzic. Do you
2 remember what you discussed? Your first answer was you discussed the
3 operation of the Drina Corps.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. And my question was --
6 JUDGE KWON: No. Let him answer the question.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't remember.
8 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now that I see this ...
10 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. At that meeting did we mention the creation of bad conditions for
14 the population?
15 A. What population do you have in mind?
16 Q. Very well, I'm giving up on this. General, sir, in
17 paragraph 2 --
18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, are you leaving this topic?
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. If the general does not
20 remember what was being discussed during the four hours of the meeting -
21 I suppose that there were a lot of topics that were discussed - in that
22 case I'll give up on this.
23 JUDGE KWON: I have some questions with this. I take it,
24 Mr. Subotic, that these generals are -- were meeting the president for
25 four hours at the president's office. I take it it's a very uncommon
1 happening. Do you agree?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To be honest, I can't remember.
3 This is what I honestly believe.
4 JUDGE KWON: But the meeting took four hours. Do you agree?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I can say yes to that.
6 JUDGE KWON: Generals speaking, meeting with the president for
7 four hours is not a usual happening?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. The discussion was probably
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Can we upload Exhibit D2149, English
11 page 53, B/C/S page 35. Shall we show the witness the first page first.
12 Mr. Subotic, this is what Mr. Milovanovic, General Milovanovic,
13 wrote about his meetings with president between 1992 and 1996. And
14 Mr. Milovanovic confirmed his writing. So shall we go to page 53 in
15 English and 35 in B/C/S. So the bottom part of the B/C/S. So I read out
16 for you:
17 "On 16th March I had a meeting with Karadzic in Pale because of
18 some documents that needed to be signed and which were made by the
19 Main Staff operations administration for the purpose of the
20 Supreme Command since they did not have people skilled for that."
21 Do you see that document [overlapping speakers]
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see that, yes. I can see
24 JUDGE KWON: [Overlapping speakers] sentence.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
1 JUDGE KWON: What is it, a document that needed to be signed
2 which were made by the General Staff, the Main Staff operation
3 administration for the purpose of the Supreme Command. I take it this is
4 the 16th of March where -- when you and Mr. -- General Tolimir and
5 Milovanovic met with Mr. Karadzic for four hours, so I take it you
6 discussed this document.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose so. I can't remember. I
8 should be shown some other details of that conversation. However, based
9 on what I see before me, based on those few lines I can still not get to
10 the bottom of what was discussed.
11 If there is anything else, maybe it will jog my memory. As
12 things stand now, I can't.
13 JUDGE KWON: Do you agree that a president office or
14 Supreme Command did not have people skilled for drafting military
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would not agree with that. Only
17 partly, only in some segments the answer would be yes. However, in most
18 of the segments the answer would be no.
19 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
20 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President. Thank you very much for
21 those questions, but since you're able to ask leading questions and I
22 think there is one topic that we just left out that ought to be asked,
23 and that is: Was this language about making life unbearable for the
24 inhabitants of Srebrenica and Zepa discussed at all at this meeting. I
25 think that's an important element that ought to be clarified with the
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE KWON: Since the witness did not remember this
4 conversation, I would rather leave it at that.
5 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic. If you have any further questions
6 you can do so, but not in a leading way.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. I would kindly ask the general to read the last sentence on the
9 page that's before him, and could he also be provided with the following
10 page in the Serbian version?
11 A. Can the page be scrolled up, please.
12 Q. The last on your side.
13 A. Can the letters be enlarged? Okay.
14 Q. Where it says the Supreme Commander criticises
15 General Mladen Djukic?
16 A. Yes, I can see that.
17 Q. Go on reading from there. Read the sentence aloud to the end.
18 A. It says:
19 "And Colonel Luka Dragicevic and a few other VRS officers because
20 of our arbitrariness. I informed General Mladic about the criticism, but
21 I don't know how they talked it over, if they did it at all. Because of
22 my people, but also due to lamenting of the entire VRS,
23 President Karadzic decided then to hold a session of the RS
24 National Assembly and saw the supply problems and further engagement of
25 the army. The Main Staff had to make an expose or report on the
1 situation in the VRS and its needs and requirements and bring it up at
2 the Assembly session sometime in mid-April."
3 And now finally I remembered what we discussed. We discussed
4 general problems, and a request was made to discuss it at the Assembly
6 Q. Thank you. And when it comes to General Milovanovic, does he
7 mention that we discussed directive 7?
8 A. No. I did not notice that.
9 Q. Thank you. When was it the first time that you heard the
10 sentence, and I quote, "Life has to be made unbearable for the population
11 of Srebrenica"?
12 A. Much after Srebrenica. I don't know when. A few months after
13 the events in Srebrenica. I didn't know what the directive contains.
14 Only when some discussions started about all of that, it was only then
15 that I -- and then I reacted as well. And now, today, after what I have
16 just seen, I didn't have that. Now I'm 100 per cent convinced that
17 that's -- that there was a deliberate alteration because the order issued
18 by the Drina Corps doesn't mention that, and no corps has the right to
19 change anything in the wording of the Main Staff. However, the wording
20 of the Drina Corps document does not contain that sentence which makes me
21 even more convinced that that was subsequently added and perhaps it was
22 not even done at the Main Staff.
23 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 25 -- or, rather, 234, that's in your
24 statement -- or, rather, that's your previous evidence where you mention
25 that Srebrenica was discussed. You say the plan was to do this or that
1 or the other. Can you tell us whether at that session the
2 Supreme Command made plan? Was it discussed? Did any decisions follow?
3 A. No plans were worked out. It was only precisely outlined that
4 those two enclaves should be separated from each other. I know that. I
5 remember as much. I registered that in the minutes of the
6 Supreme Command.
7 Q. Thank you. Now I would like to call up P3149. It is something
8 that you sent, the minutes of the session of the Supreme Command that you
9 yourself did not attend. And that was shown to you during the
11 A. Yes. That was the fourth session that I did not attend.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please see in e-court
13 page 13 in Serbian and page 14 in English.
14 MR. TIEGER: I would be cautious before we go to documents and
15 place them in front of the witness. I recognise this document was
16 discussed during the cross-examination, but it's a lengthy document. So
17 I'd like to know -- and in particular in light of the fact that the
18 accused referred to the witness's evidence in chief rather than any
19 aspect of cross, I'd like to know how this arises from cross.
20 JUDGE KWON: But you agree that this document was raised in your
22 MR. TIEGER: It was definitely raised in my cross-examination,
23 but for -- as I say, it's a lengthy document. I don't know what point in
24 particular is being raised here. And to give you an extreme example of
25 the abuse of such a process --
1 JUDGE KWON: He was about to answer the question. Please leave a
2 gap. Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, it was put to the
4 witness that after all, Mladic did respect him, that he expressed his
5 esteem and General Subotic's statement was disputed from that aspect, his
6 relationship with General Mladic, that is. And this document contains
7 explanations, so I wanted to ask General Subotic about that. However, we
8 can deal with it after the break if you wish.
9 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Shall we take a break? We will resume
10 at 1.20.
11 --- Recess taken at 12.27 p.m.
12 --- On resuming at 1.25 p.m.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. General, sir, on page 17 on the 19th, on the 19th of June, you
17 were asked, and now I'm going to read this out in the English language so
18 that it would be properly interpreted to you:
19 [In English] "Q. When did you first find out that there were
20 executions of any sort that took place in Srebrenica?"
21 [Interpretation] I'm not sure that on the 19th the word
22 "pogubljenje" was used. I think the word "egzekucija" was used.
23 [In English] "A. Sometime towards the end of July, the month of
24 July, I was in Pale, I was in Banja Luka. I did not know a thing. I did
25 not know a thing. I'm telling you honestly. Nobody ever informed me
1 about anything. I was in the office. I didn't receive any report about
3 "Q. Okay. So you said sometimes toward the end of July you found
4 out about executions that had taken place, and then you told us what you
5 didn't know about or didn't or weren't informed about. What were you
6 informed about toward the end of July concerning execution of
7 Bosnian Muslims?
8 "A. Well, I was informed that Muslims, and I saw it on TV, that
9 Muslims were provided with buses to go to Tuzla. I was also informed
10 that Naser Oric, and I knew that already that Naser Oric had killed a
11 significant number of Muslims who did not agree with the things. That's
12 what I knew, and I had that kind of information. Not just me. That was
13 generally known. I didn't see anything. I was not in the area. I was
14 not duty-bound to go there."
15 [Interpretation] And then on pages 17 and 18 something was quoted
16 to you, Mr. Milinic's testimony, that is, and he said that he had not
17 heard until much later.
18 In this part of your answer where you said what you heard, again
19 I have to repeat Mr. Tieger's question to you, when was it that you heard
20 that Serbs executed prisoners in Srebrenica?
21 A. I cannot remember the date, but I heard that in Banja Luka when I
22 was watching television and I saw them boarding buses and some other
23 vehicles. That's what I saw on television in Banja Luka, and that was
24 commented upon. So I was not in that area, so I didn't know anything
1 Q. Which television was that, and what year was that?
2 A. Well, 1995.
3 Q. Thank you. And what did they say -- actually, first of all, in
4 1995, in July, did you receive reports from the Main Staff that were sent
5 to the Presidency?
6 A. No. No. I mean, at that time, no, I was in Banja Luka. I was
7 there, and Mr. Micic, your Secretary-General. We had some assignments
8 there. So at that time we saw that in Banja Luka. I mean, we heard this
9 information in Banja Luka.
10 Q. What's the television?
11 A. I beg your pardon?
12 Q. Which television was it when you heard that?
13 A. It was on Serb television, I think, this relocation, the Muslims
14 moving. I saw General Mladic there giving children something, whatever.
15 It was on television.
16 Q. Thank you. General, sir, that is beyond dispute, but this is
17 what I'd be interested in: Did you receive any reports or did you find
18 out in some other way about some Muslims being executed or unlawfully
19 killed? Not killed by Oric, but, rather, killed by the Serb army? Did
20 you hear of that, and if so, when?
21 A. No. No. When I returned to Pale, I did not receive that kind of
22 report, and I didn't find a report when I got back either. Such a report
23 did not exist in our office.
24 Q. And did you have an opportunity to see in these reports that were
25 sent by the security organs of the Main Staff to the Presidency was there
1 any information to that effect, that the Serb army had executed someone?
2 A. I did not receive any such reports.
3 JUDGE KWON: Let's move on.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. We'll go back to the session of the Supreme Command, and please,
6 could we -- yes, we do have that document. We've called it up. It's
7 your document P3149, and you are sending these minutes, and then
8 Mr. Tieger said to you that at this meeting Mladic said that he respects
9 you. So could we please have page 12 in e-court in Serbian, and I think
10 it's 14 in English.
11 A. Since I don't have the page number here, could that please --
12 Q. This is what was put to you, this is what you were asked on the
13 19th, on page 77, lines from 5 to 19, I'll read it out in English:
14 [In English] "Q. Do you agree in general that in this portion of
15 the Supreme Command session that was held on 31st of March, 1995,
16 General Mladic indicated his understanding of Mr. Karadzic as
17 Supreme Commander, his position as Dr. Karadzic's right hand, and also
18 offered a generous or fair assessment of you, at least not a hostile or
19 hateful assessment."
20 [Interpretation] And now please take a look at this page that we
21 see here. Could we enlarge the bottom of the Serbian page, please.
22 Karadzic says:
23 "I cannot be the law, but I cannot operate outside the law.
24 "General Mladic: None of us can be the law, and we cannot be the
25 law individually. Don't say things to us. We know what you want with
2 "Karadzic: Tell us what it is that I want.
3 "Mladic: I won't tell you what it is that you want. I know what
4 you are trying with that. I know --"
5 JUDGE KWON: Are we on the correct page in English?
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. It's at the top of the
8 [In English] "So you are telling me what I want."
9 [Interpretation] That is not the right translation. "Well, tell
10 me what it is that I want," that would be the right translation. And
11 then it says that this has to do with the suspension of the authority of
12 the Main Staff in connection with promotions. They tolerated that for
13 you until now, but from now on we will see if we continue like this, we
14 will have to clear some things up, and then further on I say:
15 "Do Bogdan Subotic transfer that authority to you?"
16 And Mladic says:
17 "General, in relation to -- as far as I'm concerned,
18 Bogdan Subotic is not a person who should be mentioned in my presence."
19 And Mladic says:
20 "He was your choice for minister."
21 And I say:
22 "And it will always be my choice for as long as I am who I am."
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Are these expressions of respect for you?
25 A. Yes, under quotation marks, because Mladic thinks that he is the
1 smartest man in the world, that he's smarter than I am and that you are,
2 and the prime minister, and that no one else knows anything, and that is
3 how he treated me all the time. I never responded to him. You know that
4 full well. And there is no record of me standing up to him in any way.
5 I simply tolerated it. It's the kind of person he is. As a matter of
6 fact, I think that often he didn't really mean what he said. Quite
7 simply, he had this position -- I mean, he would be angry, whatever, and
8 he had to blame someone for something. I never accused him, to tell you
9 the truth. I never entered into any kind of polemic with him. That's a
10 well-known thing. You know that, but others know that too.
11 Q. Thank you, but you did withdraw from the post of minister.
12 A. Well, no, I was not minister any longer, but this conversation
13 took place three years later almost. I mean, now three years later, why
14 would he mention all of that? All of that was stated very clearly.
15 Q. Thank you. Can we have page 18 in Serbian and 20 in English.
16 A. Did you say 18 in the Serbian? I can see page 19 here.
17 Q. Well, that's all right. It's in e-court. You can see line 6
19 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please indicate where he's
20 reading from.
21 JUDGE KWON: Could you start over again and let us know where it
22 is in the English version.
23 THE ACCUSED: Fifth line from the top, Excellency.
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Please continue.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. [As read] "This is what we military men have been brought to,
2 whether craftsmen or generals. He can be arrested at Subotic's decision.
3 We have no idea, only when we hear that he was arrested. Did he commit a
4 criminal offence? It turned out that Vlatkovic had not been doing
5 anything. Karadzic: But who did? Someone comitted a criminal offense.
6 Sorry, I do not know. I do not know who should be arrested, and now when
7 we are with Subotic, where did Subotic get such authority? Who empowered
8 him? In whose name was he in power? Does he have operational powers?
9 He cannot appear as a general."
10 JUDGE KWON: We can't follow with that speed.
11 THE ACCUSED: Ah, sorry.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. I do not know who should be arrested, and now when we are with
14 Subotic, where did Subotic get that authority? Well, we can all read
15 that, and then Karadzic says:
16 "Everyone is empowered to make a criminal report, everyone.
17 Everyone who knows about a crime is duty-bound to make one."
18 And then a bit lower in my answer I say the military structure
19 cannot do civilian jobs nor can the civilian structure do military jobs.
20 That is very elemental. And if we are not going to respect that, we will
21 introduce chaos to the country, and we will lose the country.
22 And then again Karadzic says:
23 "The Main Staff is the operational body, as the police are
24 located in the Interior Ministry but are not interior ministry."
25 And then I say:
1 "The army must go to the ministry in the same way that the police
2 goes to the ministry."
3 Did you know about these positions of mine about the army and the
5 A. Well, it's just some story going around. Mladic's problem was
6 that there was somebody there who had the right to oversight, and even
7 though I lost the right of oversight over the army, I remained until the
8 end of the war with the right to the oversight of other state organs.
9 This is something that was never abolished. And as the inspector in
10 chief, this is what my main task was.
11 It says to determine and check measures established by law for
12 the defence of Republika Srpska. That is the first assignment. The
13 second assignment is to --
14 MR. TIEGER: Excuse me.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
16 MR. TIEGER: I initially thought that the witness was reading
17 from or reciting something from memory or reading off the screen but he's
18 referring to some document, some small document he has in his hand, and
19 reading from that, so I think we need to know what that is.
20 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Subotic --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is my identification as chief
22 inspector, and it's there in the documents, but I did bring it, but this
23 is in the documents. It's contained in the documents. So I had four
24 assignments. I read the first one, if you noted it down. The second one
25 is to establish the system of command. That is something that I was
1 doing in that year, and since Mladic asked the president for me to stop
2 monitoring the army, I didn't do that anymore.
3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Subotic, do you remember what the question was
4 from Mr. Karadzic?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do remember the question, but
6 Mladic disputes all of that here in this conversation. He places an
7 anathema on that.
8 JUDGE KWON: Could you -- could you concentrate on answering the
9 question put by Mr. Karadzic, and if you would like to refer to
10 something, please let us know. You are free to consult any document you
11 have with you now, but please let us know in advance.
12 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. General, sir, I believe that we already have that in the
16 statement. I'm just asking you this: This position of mine that the
17 police should be in the Ministry of the Interior and that the armies in
18 the Ministry of Defence was something that was proper and correct and
19 based on the law, and did I manage that implement that?
20 A. It was correct and proper. I really couldn't give you the
21 percentage to the extent to which it has successful, but in any case, it
22 was not quite successful. It wasn't fully implemented.
23 Q. Thank you. Mr. Tieger mentioned your paragraph 169, I think,
24 where I think you -- and he mentioned that you said that there was a
25 letter in which President Milosevic bypassed Karadzic and promoted
1 Mladic. Do you stand by that?
2 A. Yes, I do. He sent a letter also to Alija Izetbegovic and -
3 wait, let me see to who else - and to Mladic.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 65 ter 15459 and
6 on the other side can we look at 15461, both are Serbian versions, and
7 they can follow the English version on their monitors. Can we zoom in on
8 this, please. Could we have 15461 on the right side, please.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Could you please tell us what this is, please?
11 A. These are the two letters I mentioned. On the left-hand side is
12 the letter to Alija Izetbegovic. I don't know if I ought to read it.
13 And then on the right-hand side is the letter to General Ratko Mladic,
14 and there is no mention anywhere of the president of the republic,
16 Q. Could you please read the first sentence from the Mladic letter?
17 A. I am addressing you and the Main Staff. It says General, sir,
18 I'm addressing you and the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska and
19 thereby the leadership of Republika Srpska at the moment in time when all
20 the absurdity of the civil war in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina
21 is becoming obvious and when, and so on and so forth.
22 Q. Thank you, General, sir. Can we look at the last pages of both
23 letters so that we can see when it was signed and who signed it.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We do not have the
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The letter sent to Izetbegovic was
2 sent from Belgrade on the 1st of August, 1995, and there is the signature
3 of Slobodan Milosevic and his signature, and then it says CC or
4 attachment letter sent to General Ratko Mladic.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. And can we look at the last page of the document on the
7 right-hand side, please.
8 A. Well, the sheet needs to be scrolled up a little bit. A little
9 more, please. Otherwise, the signature is probably on the next page.
10 The one on the right-hand side, the one to the -- to
11 General Ratko Mladic.
12 Q. Well, perhaps it's lost somewhere. You can see the ERN number at
13 the top.
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. And, General, sir, how was this taken, this double letter in
16 Republika Srpska?
17 A. Well, generally speaking it was a sorry affair. First of all,
18 Serbia did not do much to help us, neither did Slobodan Milosevic, and
19 then with this letter they actually did us a disservice, especially --
20 well, this is a strange thing for everybody. It was unnecessary and so
22 Q. General, sir, did you know, did you find out, did you establish
23 if there was any kind of and what sort of joint criminal enterprise there
24 was --
25 JUDGE KWON: Just before going into that question, I don't follow
1 that this is a "double letter," because it's impossible to see the
2 English translation at the same time. What did you mean, Mr. Subotic, by
3 "double letter"?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wish to say that in this address
5 to Alija Izetbegovic, I wanted to say what does Slobodan Milosevic mean
6 in addressing Alija Izetbegovic at the end of the war when we were losing
7 territories en masse? The whole world was against us. What does that
8 mean? What is that then? And he's not addressing the president of the
9 republic, but he's addressing the president of Bosnia and Herzegovina who
10 started the war. And then on the other side here, he is vilifying the
11 president of the republic and placing his weight behind Ratko Mladic, who
12 at the time was planning a coup d'etat against Karadzic.
13 JUDGE KWON: But what does a "double letter" mean at all?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I'm afraid that it
15 was I who said that in my question.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, two letters were sent, one to
17 Alija Izetbegovic, one to Mladic. In that sense, it's -- there are two
18 letters. The one to Alija does not excite us, and it does not -- didn't
19 mean anything to us, but the one to Mladic, it really got us into a
20 state, and it did mean something to us.
21 JUDGE KWON: The contents are different, Mr. Subotic?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, of course they're different,
23 because the situation is different, but --
24 JUDGE KWON: Please carry on, because I was confused because you
25 compared -- tried to compare these two letters.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Thank you. General, can you just please tell us what would the
3 normal procedure be? How should it have been in Republika Srpska? Who
4 would be the counterpart, the partner to Izetbegovic in Republika Srpska?
5 A. Well, it should have been addressed either to the government or
6 to the president or to the Assembly, one of those three segments. If it
7 had been written to any one of those, then it would have been all right.
8 Q. Thank you. I put a question, but then there was this
9 clarification afterwards.
10 General, sir, throughout the whole time that you were dealing
11 with state and administrative affairs, did you come across any evidence
12 or knowledge that there was any kind of joint criminal enterprise on the
13 Serbian side?
14 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger.
15 MR. TIEGER: I think the Court has already expressed its position
16 in -- with similar attempts by the accused to ask such broad
17 conclusionary, legalistic and inappropriate questions.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can rephrase.
19 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Let us hear the question then.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. General, sir, throughout the whole cross-examination regarding
22 the elements, it is understood and implied in my charges that he entered
23 into a joint criminal enterprise with many people including Mladic,
24 including President Milosevic, including the opposition, for example,
25 Seselj and so on, that I joined that enterprise in order to commit
1 crimes. Did you know of the existence of any kind of joint criminal
2 enterprise of that type?
3 A. Absolutely --
4 JUDGE KWON: No. That's a kind of legal assessment.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. All right. Very well. Then we'll do it like this: Was there
7 any agreement? Did you find out about any agreement between myself and
8 anyone else about the commission of any kind of crime?
9 A. There was nothing like that. It did not exist. I absolutely
10 state that no one in our republic ever thought about anything like that,
11 never mind found out or established it. I personally think that this is
12 some kind of made-up thing, criminal enterprise, because that is the
13 first time in the history of human warfare and human living, life, that I
14 ever heard of anything like that, and I tried with some very intelligent,
15 wise people to get them to explain it to me, and nobody could do that.
16 It's a very unclear thing.
17 Q. So any kind of agreement like that, any kind of commission of
19 A. No, no. No kind of commission of crimes. I'm not aware of
20 anything like that. If anybody else knew anything like that, then they
21 would need to prove it.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please repeat his question.
23 JUDGE KWON: Did you say anything after the answer of the
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no. I just thanked the
1 witness. My question was: Was there any kind of agreement in order to
2 commit crimes, agreement between myself and anyone else, and I think that
3 the witness answered that question. And then I also said that I would
4 like to tender these two documents. Perhaps that's what it was, and that
5 was not recorded.
6 JUDGE KWON: We'll receive them.
7 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
8 JUDGE KWON: We'll receive them separately.
9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D3718 and D3719 respectively,
10 Your Honours.
11 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Subotic, do you know when this letter to Mladic
12 was sent by President Milosevic? Roughly.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the date is here on the
14 letter, Belgrade, August 1st, 1995, and that was sent to Mladic then
16 JUDGE KWON: That was a letter to President Izetbegovic. I'm
17 asking --
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the same time, in 1995 when the
19 initiative was started for the replacement of Mladic, that's when it was
21 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, General, sir. I have no
23 further questions for you, and I would like to thank you on behalf of the
24 Defence for coming to testify.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Unless my colleagues have a question for
2 you, that concludes your evidence, Mr. Subotic. On behalf of the
3 Chamber, I thank you for your coming to The Hague to give it. Now you're
4 free to go.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you for the
6 professionalism of this Trial Chamber. I'm absolutely satisfied for
7 coming to testify.
8 [The witness withdrew]
9 JUDGE KWON: Is the next witness ready?
10 MR. ROBINSON: As far as I know, yes.
11 MR. TIEGER: Ms. Edgerton will be coming in, probably is coming
12 in now. While she's doing so, can I raise one housekeeping matter
13 dealing with MFIs?
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
15 MR. TIEGER: They -- this relates to two MFI documents that
16 needed a translation and now have one that I understand has been
17 uploaded. It's P6394 MFI, and 6395. So both the English and B/C/S have
18 been added in e-court, so I would ask now that they be fully admitted.
19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. The Chamber will take a look and issue
20 an oral ruling.
21 Does the Defence take any position with respect to these two
23 MR. ROBINSON: We don't oppose it, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
25 [The witness entered court]
1 JUDGE KWON: Would the witness make the solemn declaration.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
3 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 WITNESS: PETAR SALAPURA
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Salapura. Please be seated and make
7 yourself comfortable.
8 Probably you heard this advice from the Mladic Chamber, but I
9 have to repeat it for record. Mr. Salapura, before you commence your
10 evidence, I must draw your attention to a Rule that we have at this
11 Tribunal, that is Rule 90(E). Under this Rule, you may object to
12 answering any question from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecution, or even from
13 the Judges if you believe that your answer might incriminate you. In
14 this context, "incriminate" means saying something that might amount to
15 an admission of guilt for a criminal offence or saying something that
16 might provide evidence that you might have committed a criminal offence.
17 However, should you think that an answer might incriminate you and as
18 a -- as a consequence you refuse to answer question, I must let you know
19 that the Tribunal has the power to compel you to answer the question, but
20 in that situation, the Tribunal would ensure that your testimony
21 compelled in such circumstances would not be used in any case that might
22 be laid against you -- in any case that might be laid against you for any
23 offence save and except the offence of giving false testimony.
24 Do you understand what I have just told you, Mr. Salapura?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
2 Please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
5 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Colonel Salapura.
6 A. Good afternoon.
7 Q. I would kindly ask you, and I would like to remind myself because
8 I'm the main culprit here, that you make a break after my question and
9 that both of us speak slowly so that our words may be recorded properly.
10 Colonel, sir, could you please tell us where and when you were
12 A. I was born on the 20th of August, 1948, in Bjelaj village in the
13 municipality of Bosanski Petrovac in the republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
14 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us your father's name?
15 A. Milan.
16 Q. Thank you. Although that is already in your statement, could you
17 please tell us something about your career path. In addition to what is
18 already in your statement, can you tell us whether you were ever
19 decorated or awarded?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Could you please mention some of your decorations, when you were
22 decorated, and by whom? Was that while you were still in the JNA or
24 A. My decorations mostly date back to the period of the JNA. While
25 I served in the VRS, I only got one decoration.
1 Q. Well, we did not outdo ourselves it seems. Thank you, Colonel,
2 sir. Did you provide my Defence team a statement?
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 Q. Thank you. I would like to call up 1D9615 in e-court. Could you
5 please look at the screen and tell us whether this is the statement that
6 you gave to my Defence team. It should be on the left-hand side.
7 A. Yes, this is it.
8 Q. Did you read the statement, and did you sign it?
9 A. Yes, I did.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
11 the last page to allow him to identify the signature on it.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is my signature.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Thank you. Does this statement accurately reflect what you said
15 to the Defence team?
16 A. Yes, it does.
17 Q. Thank you. If I were to put the same questions to you today in
18 the courtroom, would your answers be the same in essence?
19 A. Yes.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Would I like to tender
21 this statement pursuant to Rule 90 ter -- 92 ter.
22 JUDGE KWON: Any objections?
23 MS. EDGERTON: No.
24 JUDGE KWON: Are you tendering any associated exhibits?
25 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. There are two associated
1 exhibits being tendered.
2 JUDGE KWON: Any objections, Ms. Edgerton?
3 MS. EDGERTON: No.
4 JUDGE KWON: We'd admit them all. Shall we assign the numbers
5 for them.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The 92 ter statement will be
7 Exhibit D3720; 1D6273 will be Exhibit D3724 [sic]; and 1D6274 will be
8 Exhibit D3722.
9 JUDGE KWON: Shall we have the exhibit number again? For the
10 exhibit number.
11 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter 1D6273 will be Exhibit D3721.
12 JUDGE KWON: 21, yes.
13 THE REGISTRAR: And 1D6274 will be Exhibit D3722.
14 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'm now going to read a
16 summary of Colonel Petar Salapura's statement in English.
17 MS. EDGERTON: I'm sorry.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
19 MS. EDGERTON: Just before Dr. Karadzic begins the summary. If
20 he could have a look at the very last sentence of paragraph 6. I can't
21 find any evidence to that effect in the statement, so perhaps he could
22 just couple check that. And on the printed-out copy I have paragraph 6
23 begins with the road from Belgrade to Han Pijesak so the last sentence I
24 don't think is something that comes from his written evidence, although I
25 stand to be corrected if I'm mistaken.
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. If necessary, then maybe ask the
2 witness. Please proceed.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Colonel, sir, do you have your statement before you in hard copy?
5 JUDGE KWON: No.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise. The summary. I
7 thought that this referred to the statement.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Do you have the statement before you, sir?
10 A. I have nothing before me.
11 Q. Trial Chamber will allow you to have it before you and to use it
12 during the cross-examination.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the Colonel please be
14 provided with a copy of his statement.
15 And now I'm going to read the summary in English.
16 [In English] Colonel Petar Salapura worked in the JNA until 1992
17 and then joined the VRS until his retirement in 1996. He was head of the
18 administration for intelligence in the VRS Main Staff.
19 In May 1992, the leadership of Yugoslavia withdrew the JNA from
20 BH and the VRS was formed. The VRS inherited the organisation of the
21 JNA. After the JNA withdrew from BH, Petar Salapura's intelligence organ
22 was organised within the VRS. The intelligence organ was given the task
23 and the right to deal with the Patriotic League of the Army of BH and the
24 Croatian Defence Council. The security service did not provide them with
25 any information which put them in a difficult position. The situation
1 was also influenced by changes in other departments. They were exposed
2 to the attacks of Muslim paramilitary formations against Skenderija.
3 They also had great trouble with public opinion. They were blamed for
4 not doing anything in Croatia. Petar Salapura proposed that a department
5 of administration be formed at the administration for intelligence and
7 The AIS was established, and the chief of the administration was
8 Colonel Tolimir, Colonel Petar Salapura was chief of the intelligence
9 department, and Colonel Beara was chief of the security department. In
10 1994, the AIS split into two administrations, the security service and
11 intelligence administration. There were personnel problems. None of the
12 departments in the corps had more than three men. Half the intelligence
13 work at the strategic level was done by Colonel Petar Salapura.
14 General Tolimir dealt with staff co-ordination and contacts with the
15 commander. The intelligence department was not as significant as the
16 other powerful, strong, and often rival services, interior
17 counter-intelligence services.
18 The intelligence service gathered intelligence in the war about
19 the enemy, the terrain, the facilities, and everything pertaining to the
20 enemy, but also about the overall activities, plans, intentions of the
21 international community, relations, upcoming conferences, concluded
22 agreements, et cetera. The intelligence service had no jurisdiction over
23 internal matters. The service operated twofold. One part was the
24 intelligence administration with organs for data collection and the
25 intelligence centre. The other made the unit part, these were organs in
1 the staff of the corps, brigades, et cetera. Colonel Petar Salapura's
2 jurisdiction in the intelligence administration was very limited.
3 In July 1995, Colonel Petar Salapura was chief of administration.
4 At the time, the intelligence service focused on co-ordination and
5 collecting intelligence pertaining to operations and events, which would
6 ensure in the Serbian Krajina and the western part of Republika Srpska.
7 The focus of intelligence was -- work was transferred to the western
8 part, to Croatia, the BH Army, HVO, and the Croatian forces in Dubrovnik.
9 There were indications that Croatia was preparing offences against
10 Krajina and Republika Srpska. They received initial information on the
11 joint attack on the Republika Srpska Krajina and Republika Srpska from
12 intelligence services in Belgrade.
13 The road from Belgrade to Han Pijesak was cut off due to the
14 fighting in the area on 12th and 13th of July, 1995. It was impossible
15 to contact General Tolimir that day or the following. Petar Salapura
16 went from Bijeljina to Han Pijesak via Zvornik, Nova Kasaba, Milici, and
18 In Nova Kasaba, Colonel Salapura spoke with Major Malinic. There
19 were a large number of captured soldiers at the stadium. The situation
20 was quite relaxed. Prisoners were sitting and walking about the stadium.
21 One could not fathom that anything could happen to jeopardise the
22 prisoners. On the road from Konjevic Polje to Bratunac, a group of those
23 who surrendered were left on the side of the road. One of the prisoners
24 activated a grenade, causing delays. There were several tens of soldiers
25 and prisoners.
1 In Bratunac there were many vehicles moving in all directions.
2 There was a great deal going on. There were many civilians there.
3 Petar Salapura explained the situation to General Mladic in Srebrenica.
4 They discussed the -- the expected attack. As soon as combat operations
5 against Srebrenica started, the monitoring of intelligence transferred to
6 the Drina Corps.
7 The 65th Motorised Protection Regiment was not linked to the
8 intelligence administration. They secured the prisoners at the stadium
9 in Nova Kasaba. The 10th Sabotage Detachment was an independent unit, a
10 headquarters support unit of the Main Staff. Professional control
11 training, specialist training, proposal of use for reconnaissance task,
12 activities in the territory of the enemy, were conducted by the
13 intelligence administration. Anything outside professional control could
14 not be ordered or interfered with by intelligence officers. The
15 intelligence administration had nothing to do with Operation Srebrenica
16 in July 1995. Liquidation of prisoners was never considered at the
17 Main Staff. No one ever conveyed such an order.
18 The administration considered the liberation of Srebrenica
19 unnecessary, because of the expected negative reactions of the
20 international community. In June 1995, the administration planned and
21 the 10th Sabotage Detachment executed a pre-emptive action in Srebrenica.
22 They wanted to avoid civilian casualties, but through restrictive actions
23 they demonstrated that they could enter the town whenever, but it was not
24 in their interest. This was a message to the Muslim forces leadership in
25 Srebrenica and UNPROFOR as support to exert pressure against the Muslim
1 side to stop premeditated provocations against the VRS. The aim was to
2 make it impossible for Muslims to carry out constant assaults, attack
3 Serbian settlements and the VRS carry out provocations and inflict
5 And that would be a summary. At the moment I would not have any
6 questions for Colonel Salapura.
7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
8 Mr. Salapura, as you have noted, your evidence in chief in this
9 case has been admitted in its entirety in writing, that is, your written
10 statement. Now you'll be cross-examined by the representative of the
11 Office of the Prosecutor. Do you understand that?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do. May I just correct one
13 thing, if you will allow me? The 10th Sabotage Detachment was not a
14 logistics unit. It was an independent unit of the Main Staff. It was
15 directly subordinated to the commander of the Main Staff. The
16 administration was an organ for professional control of the detachment,
17 its training, equipment, and it proposed its use to the commander.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
19 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
20 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
21 Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:
22 Q. Good afternoon, Colonel.
23 A. Good afternoon.
24 Q. Colonel, we're not going to be sitting for much longer today, but
25 I know you have a bad back and you've been sitting all morning, so if it
1 becomes too much to stay sitting, I do invite you to let us know; all
3 A. Thank you. Thank you.
4 Q. So, Colonel, this is the fourth trial that you've testified in in
5 front of this Tribunal; right? You've testified as a Defence witness in
6 the prosecution of Blagojevic, and as a Prosecution witness in the case
7 against General Tolimir, and as a Prosecution witness in the trial of
8 General Mladic, and that makes this the fourth proceeding you've come to
9 give evidence in; right?
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 Q. Thank you. Now, in 2011 you also testified at the state court of
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina in the trial of members of the 10th Sabotage Unit for
13 the killings at Branjevo Farm on the 16th of July, 1995; right?
14 A. Yes. That's correct.
15 Q. Now, you explained in your statement that General Tolimir, as
16 chief of administration -- of the administration for intelligence and
17 security in the VRS was your superior. Now, you know also that after the
18 trial where you testified, he was convicted of genocide and extermination
19 for the murder of Bosnian Muslim men and boys from Srebrenica, among
20 other things, and sentenced to life imprisonment. You know that; right?
21 A. Yes, yes.
22 Q. And Colonel Beara, who you explained was the chief of the
23 security administration and your counterpart, was convicted in 2010 of
24 genocide, murder, extermination, and persecution and also sentenced to
25 life imprisonment for his role in the killing of the men and boys of
1 Srebrenica. You know that; right?
2 A. Yes, I know that.
3 Q. All right. I want you, to begin with, to go over with me, if
4 that's okay, some of the evidence you gave before another Chamber of this
5 Tribunal yesterday and today while it's still fresh in your mind. And
6 I'm going to read to you what you've said and ask if you can confirm that
7 for us.
8 The first thing I want to turn to is yesterday, at transcript
9 page 13102, and this is in respect of the killings in Srebrenica, you
10 were asked by my colleague, Mr. Vanderpuye, he asked you, and I'll quote:
11 "Did you not report this crime because you knew that other
12 members of the Main Staff were fully aware of it, both how horrifying it
13 was and of its scale and who committed it?"
14 And then His Honour Judge Orie asked:
15 "Or was it that the other part of the question or was it that you
16 had no obligation to report?"
17 And your response was:
18 "Yes, it's correct. I heard there, as well from my operatives
19 that I talked to. Everyone knew. I think even the whole town knew about
20 it, let alone the army. So I thought that it was a process that was
22 And then Judge Orie further asked you:
23 "Let me try to see whether I correctly understood your answer.
24 Do you intend to say that there was an obligation to report but that
25 there was no need to do that any further because everyone knew already?
1 Is that how I have to understand your testimony?"
2 And you said:
3 "Yes. I believed everyone knew, and when I received it, when I
4 talked to my operatives, yes."
5 Does that accurately reflect --
6 MR. ROBINSON: I didn't mean to interrupt you finishing your
7 question, but, Mr. President, we don't have access to this. This is a
8 situation where because of the Rule 75 procedure we receive access to
9 Mladic case on a very delayed basis, and so we don't have access to this
10 material, so I would ask that we be given access over the weekend and
11 that she ask any questions about the transcript or Mladic on Monday.
12 JUDGE KWON: Do you have any difficulty postponing the remainder
13 of your question in relation to Mladic evidence to next week?
14 MS. EDGERTON: None whatsoever. My only interest in doing it now
15 was while it was fresh in the colonel's memory, but of course not. And
16 we can e-mail the transcripts to Mr. Robinson immediately.
17 JUDGE KWON: Very well. And then deal with this and then let's
18 move on. If you have -- Mr. Robinson, if you receive by e-mail, you have
19 no difficulty with proceeding with this part?
20 MR. ROBINSON: With this question, yes, but we would like to --
21 if they have any other questions on the Mladic testimony then on Monday
22 after we've had a chance to review the transcript.
23 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
24 MS. EDGERTON:
25 Q. I'll just deal with another --
1 JUDGE KWON: I'm not sure whether witness has answered the
2 question. Whether you asked a question.
3 MS. EDGERTON: I didn't, but perhaps maybe it's best in all the
4 circumstances just to go to another area in the time we have remaining to
5 give Mr. Robinson a chance to look at the transcript.
6 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
7 MS. EDGERTON:
8 Q. Did you follow that, Colonel?
9 A. Yes, but if you allow me, may I just say something? Today we
10 discussed it again. I asked for the recording to be listened to again to
11 make certain corrections in the interpretation or whatever it was. So we
12 agreed this morning precisely on this and what all of this meant, or,
13 rather, all, because there were mistakes there.
14 Q. Quite so, and I was watching that and I wanted to go over that
15 with you in totality, but what we'll do is we'll do it on Monday; all
17 A. [In English] Okay.
18 Q. Just to go to another area, I just want you to confirm for me
19 Monday of this week you went out to meet with Dr. Karadzic at the gaol;
21 A. [Interpretation] Yes.
22 Q. Now, I noticed that one of the things you added to your
23 statement, and it was in paragraph 23, which is at page 26 of the English
24 and page 17 of your language, was that you had only met Dr. Karadzic
25 three times during the war and had no recollection of ever speaking with
1 him on the phone, and you said the same thing during your testimony in
2 the Tolimir case.
3 Now, Colonel, when you talked about it in the Tolimir case,
4 Mr. McCloskey showed you Dr. Karadzic's appointment calendar for 1995,
5 and he explained to you that we'd received evidence that if there was a
6 plus mark next to the entry in the appointment calendar, that means that
7 it happened. And I want to go to Dr. Karadzic's appointment calendar,
8 which is P2242.
9 Now, you saw during your testimony in the Tolimir case a
10 reference - and we could go to page 9 in both languages - a reference
11 that you had spoken to -- with Dr. Karadzic and the 18th of January, and
12 you were scheduled to meet him on the 24th of January. And do you see,
13 Colonel, third up from the bottom on the 18th of January, reference to
14 you, your name for five minutes? That's what the entry reads: "Call
15 Professor Koljevic," with a plus sign, and then another plus sign with
16 what looks like a telephone exchange number, 42-243-074,
17 Colonel Salapura. So you see that; right?
18 A. I'm looking for it. I'm looking for it. Is it on the right-hand
20 Q. Perhaps if my colleague could enlarge the entry that's --
21 A. Oh, I see the part written this hand, yes.
22 Q. Thank you. Now -- thank you. Now I'm going to show you a couple
23 of entries from that book. In your Tolimir testimony you saw that you
24 were scheduled to meet with Dr. Karadzic on the 24th of January, and in
25 this book, if we can go over to page 15, the entry for 30 January, you
1 see here that somebody by the name of Mico Pusic advises Dr. Karadzic
2 that he should call you, and I'm going to take you to a few more entries
3 and I'm going to ask you a question.
4 MS. EDGERTON: Now, if we could go over to page 16, I think, of
5 this document, the entry for the 1st of February. And I'll have to go
6 over to my own e-court to tell everyone where it is in English because I
7 don't see it in Cyrillic script at this moment.
8 JUDGE KWON: I think page numbers are identical.
9 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, correct. Thank you.
10 Q. This -- this says --
11 JUDGE KWON: So shall we go to the English page.
12 MS. EDGERTON: Please. So for the --
13 JUDGE KWON: No, this is the previous page.
14 MS. EDGERTON: 1st of February on the English page. Thank you.
15 Q. So here, seven up from the bottom we see that you spoke with
16 Dr. Karadzic.
17 JUDGE KWON: We may collapse the English.
18 MS. EDGERTON:
19 Q. Because the entry with your name has got a plus sign beside it.
20 And then if we go further over in this book.
21 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry, Ms. Edgerton, did you say Mr. Salapura
22 met Mr. Karadzic?
23 MS. EDGERTON: [Microphone not activated] I hope I said spoke
24 with --
25 JUDGE KWON: Microphone.
1 MS. EDGERTON: Oh, I'm sorry. I said spoke with.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Thank you. Yes.
3 MS. EDGERTON:
4 Q. Now, if we go over to pages 25 of this book in both languages, it
5 looks like if you go down to the entry of 28 February, you spoke with
6 Dr. Karadzic's brother, Luka, who passes on a message to that effect,
7 saying that you spoke with him. And then if you go over to page 27 in
8 both languages, the entry for 4 March 1995, you see your name. And
9 that's your extension, right, third up from the bottom? 226, that's your
10 extension number. And that shows --
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. That shows you spoke with Dr. Karadzic on the 4th of March. And
13 I won't take you to the next page in the book, but I'll tell you that
14 there's also an entry that says you called his office - at page 117 in
15 both languages - on the 26th of September -- pardon me, the 28th of
16 September. And it wasn't only for 1995 that we see that you spoke with
17 Dr. Karadzic. If we have a look at P4368, which is Dr. Karadzic's
18 appointment book for 1994, and if we go to page 12 in English and page 19
19 in B/C/S, we should see an entry for 16 February 1994. And that shows
20 that you called Dr. Karadzic's office with a message to contact somebody
21 named Zerar who has something important to say.
22 If we go over to --
23 JUDGE KWON: The English page is not appearing as you go.
24 MS. EDGERTON: Oh, page 19. I spoke incorrectly. I'm sorry,
25 Your Honour.
1 JUDGE KWON: Make sure that Chamber and other people are
2 following. Where is it?
3 MS. EDGERTON: English page 12; B/C/S page 19.
4 JUDGE KWON: 16th of February.
5 MS. EDGERTON: Yes.
6 JUDGE KWON: All right. Please continue.
7 MS. EDGERTON:
8 Q. If we go over, please, to English page 15 and B/C/S page 23, and
9 if we go to the entry for 22 February, we see your name again sort of
10 halfway down that entry, and your exchange, 226. So Dr. Karadzic spoke
11 with you again on 22 February, 1994.
12 And if we can go over to English page 40 and B/C/S page 69. It's
13 a bit difficult to decipher the date here, but that's an entry for
14 21 May 1994.
15 MS. EDGERTON: Your indulgence, please, for a moment,
16 Your Honour.
17 Q. And this shows that you met with him and 21 May. And I'll just
18 tell you at English stage 98 and B/C/S page 180, you and he made contact
19 on 14 November 1994. And I'd like to go over to a new document, please.
20 That's P1484, and it's the notebook of General Mladic, and I'd like to go
21 to English page 53, B/C/S page 57. It should be an entry dated
22 13 December 1993.
23 I think I might have read you the wrong B/C/S page number again.
24 Your indulgence for a moment please. The B/C/S page reference is 53.
25 And my apologies to you as well, Colonel.
1 Colonel, this entry in General Mladic's notebook records a
2 meeting in Belgrade with Dr. Karadzic, Mr. Krajisnik, General Mladic,
3 General Milovanovic, General Djukic, General Miletic, General Maric, you,
4 Mico Stanisic, Tomo Kovac, and for the Serbian authorities
5 President Milosevic, General Perisic, Jovica Stanisic, and
6 Frenki Simatovic. And I haven't showed you all Dr. Karadzic's notebooks
7 that record meetings with you, Colonel, but on the basis of that I've
8 shown you alone, we see many more contacts with Dr. Karadzic than just
10 So you told two Trial Chambers about only three contacts with
11 Dr. Karadzic, and my question is: Are you trying to hide the number of
12 contacts you've had with him, Colonel?
13 A. No. Direct contacts, that's what I meant, what I remembered from
14 that distance. It's a different thing when we met up sort of all
15 together during the war. Well, I mean even now. Even now if I were to
16 enumerate all of that, I couldn't. There were shorter encounters, longer
18 Q. When you say --
19 A. I mean, really, I have no reason to conceal any one of these
21 JUDGE KWON: Do you have your statement? You received your
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 JUDGE KWON: Do you ever the last page, paragraph 23? Could you
25 read out aloud.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] During the war I met with
2 President Karadzic only three times. I do not recall ever having talked
3 to him on the telephone. I never informed -- never informed
4 President Karadzic about execution of prisoners in writing, nor did I
5 discuss that with him.
6 JUDGE KWON: Now you admit that you spoke to Mr. Karadzic over
7 the telephone.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I see here that there were
9 telephone conversations -- or, rather, whether they were materialised or
10 not I don't know, but I'm talking about the three meetings I had with him
11 directly at my request now. This was -- yes, yes. All right. Yes.
12 Okay. I accept that.
13 JUDGE KWON: The second sentence in that paragraph. Is -- now
14 you remember that and you admit it.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I accept that, and I see that. I
16 cannot say. I do not recall these meetings. To this day I do not recall
17 them, but I accept that. I see it's there on paper, so that would be it.
18 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We'll adjourn for -- stop here and
19 adjourn for today.
20 Mr. Salapura, probably you are aware of this, but please do not
21 discuss with anybody else about your testimony while you are giving
22 testimony, testifying.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just say something about the
25 JUDGE KWON: Shall we do it on Monday. We'll continue on Monday
1 at 9.00. The hearing is adjourned.
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.50 p.m.,
3 to be reconvened on Monday, the 24th day of June,
4 2013, at 9.00 a.m.