1 Tuesday, 9 July 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone. Yes. Would the witness
7 make the solemn declaration, please.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
9 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
10 WITNESS: RADOMIR PASIC
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Pasic. Please be seated and make
13 yourself comfortable.
14 Good morning, Mr. Harvey.
15 MR. HARVEY: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours. May I
16 introduce Blessing Ikemefuna, who is a British lawyer just awaiting her
17 solicitor's training contract and who has been with my team now since
18 February and is doing a wonderful job. Thank you.
19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
20 Mr. Pasic, before you commence your evidence, I must draw your
21 attention to a certain rule of evidence that we have here at the
22 International Tribunal, that is Rule 90(E). Under this Rule, you may
23 object to answering any question from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecution, or
24 even from the Judges if you believe that your answer might incriminate
25 you in a criminal offence. In this context, "incriminate" means saying
1 something that might amount to an admission of guilt for a criminal
2 offence or saying something that might provide evidence that you might
3 have committed a criminal offence. However, should you think that an
4 answer might incriminate you and as a consequence you refuse to answer
5 the question, I must let you know that the Tribunal has the power to
6 compel you to answer the question, but in that situation the Tribunal
7 would ensure that your testimony compelled under such circumstances would
8 not be used in any case that might be laid against you for any offence
9 save and except the offence of giving false testimony.
10 Do you understand what I have just told you, Mr. Pasic?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand, but I hope we
12 won't have these problems.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Pasic.
14 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.
15 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President, before we start with
16 Mr. Pasic, at the end of the testimony of General Keserovic yesterday
17 Dr. Karadzic offered his report into evidence. I don't believe the
18 Chamber did anything about that.
19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger, any objection?
20 MR. TIEGER: No, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll receive it into evidence. Shall we
22 assign a number for that.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D3848, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Excellencies. Good
1 morning to everybody.
2 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
3 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Pasic.
4 A. Good morning.
5 Q. Thank you for waiting, but this is not your first evidence, so
6 you have probably gained that experience. We need to make breaks, and we
7 have to speak slowly.
8 Could you please tell us whether you provided a statement to my
9 Defence team.
10 A. Yes, I provided a statement, Mr. President.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D9152 in
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Please look at the screen in front of you. Do you see that
15 statement on the screen?
16 A. Yes, I do.
17 Q. Did you read the statement, and did you sign it?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
21 the last page. I would like to ask him to identify his signature on it.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is my signature.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Thank you. Does your statement clearly reflect what you said to
25 the Defence team?
1 A. Yes. If I understood you properly, you're referring to the
2 statement that I provided to your Defence team.
3 Q. Yes. I'm asking about inaccuracies?
4 A. Save for some minor grammatical errors, there's nothing that
5 would change the essence of my statement.
6 Q. Thank you. If I were to put the same questions to you today, the
7 same ones they put to you when you provided your statement, would your
8 answers be the same in essence?
9 A. I solemnly declare that I would tell the truth, so that's that.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this
12 statement pursuant to Rule 92 ter.
13 JUDGE KWON: Any objection, Ms. Sutherland?
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: No objection, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes. It will be admitted into evidence.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D3849, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE KWON: Please continue.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Now I am going to read
19 a short summary of Mr. Radomir Pasic's statement in English.
20 [In English] Radomir Pasic was born on 22nd of July, 1961, in
21 Cerovica municipality of Novi Grad, formerly Bosanski Novi. In
22 July 1990, he became a member of the SDS, and in 1992 he was the
23 president of the Crisis Staff of the Novi Grad, Bosanski Novi,
24 municipality. After the first multi-party elections Mr. Pasic was
25 elected as the president of the municipality of Bosanski Novi.
1 In order to avoid armed conflicts in Novi Grad, talks with the
2 SDA were held on a daily basis, including with the SDA president
3 Izet Muhamedagic.
4 Radomir Pasic received information that non-Serbian residents of
5 Bosanski Novi were arming and preparing for war, and it was to the
6 non-Serbs' advantage that Bosanski Novi was at the border of Croatia and
7 Krajina, in Croatia now, where peace was kept by the UNPROFOR. Mr. Pasic
8 obtained intelligence that the Muslims were buying weapons from Croatia
9 and Krajina and possibly even through UNPROFOR as well.
10 In addition, in February and March 1992, the Muslims had set up a
11 check-point between Bosanska Krupa and Novi Grad. He saw that Muslim
12 members of the SFRY were wearing uniforms and traditional Muslim red
13 fezzes from the Turkish time. Later, six trucks with Serb drivers were
15 On 4th of May, 1992, as the situation was becoming more complex,
16 talks were held with the SDA, agreeing that all individuals, regardless
17 of their ethnicity, hand in all held illegally weapons in order to
18 protect peace and security of the citizens and the area. Though the
19 Muslim representatives accepted this, it was not enforced. The weapons
20 remained with the Muslim individuals and groups.
21 In order to hand in illegally possessed weapons to the municipal
22 Territorial Defence Staff or SJB by 11th of May, 1992, was issued by the
23 ARK organs. Proceeding -- proceedings would be brought against those who
24 failed to comply. Nevertheless, many, in particular the Muslims, ignored
25 this order. Many weapons were found later in their houses.
1 After finding that certain groups and individuals were possessing
2 weapons illegally, the SJB and military police required facilities to
3 take their statements and for surveillance. Due to the limited space in
4 the SJB, the Mlakve stadium was used as a reception centre. People who
5 were not dangerous were released, while some were kept in for the purpose
6 of filing criminal report and investigation.
7 In order to help and protect all the citizens and peace in
8 Bosanski Novi, Radomir Pasic considered the best possible option was to
9 enable Muslim citizens who wished to leave Bosanski Novi to do so. The
10 non-Serbs wanted to leave only -- not only just for political and
11 security reasons but also social and economic concerns such as to be
12 reunited with family members abroad, and the difficult situation in the
13 municipality, for example, shortage of food, water, and electricity.
14 Radomir Pasic explained this to Charles Kirudja, the representative from
15 UNPROFOR, and asked him to assist these people for a safe and peaceful
16 passage through the territory of the Republika Srpska Krajina.
17 Furthermore, those who decided to leave Novi Grad voluntarily were able,
18 if they wished, to take with them all their personal property, including
19 passenger cars and cargo vehicles. With regard to real estate, they
20 could sell it, swap it, or give it away without any duress for the
21 municipality authorities.
22 Regarding the paramilitaries, Radomir Pasic knew they were
23 operating in Bosanski Novi. However, they were not invited by the
24 authorities, and he was asked to remove them from the territory of the
1 Radomir Pasic said he was aware that some mosques were destroyed
2 but was unaware of the identity of the perpetrators.
3 And that's the summary, and at that moment I do not have
4 additional questions for Mr. Pasic.
5 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
6 Mr. Pasic, as you have noted, your evidence in chief in this case
7 has been admitted in its entirety in writing, that is via your written
8 statement in lieu of your oral testimony, and now you will be
9 cross-examined by the representative of the Office of the Prosecutor.
10 Yes, Ms. Sutherland.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may I remain seated for -- thank
13 JUDGE KWON: By all means, Ms. Sutherland.
14 Cross-examination by Ms. Sutherland:
15 Q. Good morning, Mr. Pasic. Mr. Pasic, do you hear me? You're
16 nodding your head. You need to affirmatively answer so that your answer
17 is on the record.
18 A. Yes, I can hear you.
19 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Sutherland, that's the speed in which you should
20 proceed. There's a gap due to the interpretation.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Q. Mr. Pasic, you say in your statement that you had no information
23 about the establishment of the Serbian municipal assemblies in the
24 municipalities of Bosnia-Herzegovina or about the proclamation of same,
25 and when you were asked to describe information you have about the
1 reasons for the establishment and operation of Serbian Crisis Staffs in
2 the municipalities, you simply said that you have already pointed out in
3 the statement that there were reasons to establish a system to maintain
4 peace and security of citizens.
5 Firstly, you had information at the time about the establishment
6 of Serbian Municipal Assemblies and of Serbian Crisis Staffs, didn't you?
7 A. If I understood you properly, I don't know what you mean when you
8 say Serbian municipality. I can talk about Novi Grad municipality, and I
9 know that in that municipality, as you could see from my statement, there
10 was a certain percentage of all the ethnicities. So we didn't have that
11 kind of problem in Novi Grad municipality. In other words the division
12 of powers was --
13 Q. [Overlapping speakers] stop you there. If I can just interrupt
14 you there. You say that you have no information about the establishment
15 of Serbian municipalities, Municipal Assemblies. You testified in the
16 Krajisnik trial in December 2005 and January 2006. In that trial you
17 admitted being aware of the December 1991 instructions from the SDS
18 Main Board, also referred to as the Variant A and B document, and you
19 said in your interview when you were interviewed by members of the
20 Office of the Prosecutor, which was on the 13th of June, 2003, that you
21 think you received the instructions but you claim you don't remember
22 where you got it from. So you are aware of this document, are you not?
23 A. Yes, but that is not a question that you asked me before. You
24 asked me about Serbian municipalities. I'm familiar with Variants A
25 and B, but I didn't understand what you asked me before.
1 Q. Well, that document talks about the establishment of
2 Serbian Municipal Assemblies and also about establishing Crisis Staffs,
3 and as --
4 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Why don't you try to resolve the
5 translation issue. The question was about whether you had information
6 about the establishment of Serbian Municipal Assemblies and
7 Serbian Crisis Staffs. Now do you understand?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I thought we were talking in
9 plurals, and I can only speak about Bosanski Novi Municipal Assembly or
10 Novi Grad municipality, as I testified in the Krajisnik case. I can
11 repeat those words again, perhaps not fully. I said that I was familiar
12 with the Variants A and B but those were not about the establishment of
13 Serbian Municipal Assemblies. As far as I can remember, those were some
14 instructions or suggestions as to how to react to some unwanted
15 consequences if those should arise. I believe that that's -- that was
16 the gist of that document.
17 There was no reference to the establishment of
18 Serbian Municipal Assemblies. Where Serbian population was a minority
19 and where Serbian population was a majority, those were two -- the two
20 variants according to which people were supposed to behave, and that was
21 the gist of the document as far as I can remember.
22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be instructed to slow
24 JUDGE KWON: Could you speak more slowly for the benefit of the
25 interpreters and us.
1 Back to you, Ms. Sutherland.
2 THE WITNESS: Okay.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND:
4 Q. Mr. Pasic, Bosanski Novi was a Variant A municipality, wasn't it,
5 because it had the majority of Serbs?
6 A. [Interpretation] Yes.
7 Q. Or -- the municipal president you made sure that the
8 December 1991 instructions were implemented in Bosanski Novi, didn't you?
9 A. When I received those instructions, as I've already testified, I
10 don't remember when they arrived and how they arrived. There is no doubt
11 about the fact that we did receive those instructions, and I must admit
12 that there was some dead-lines there, but we missed some of them with
13 regard to those activities because in Bosanski Novi, which is now
14 Novi Grad, there was no need really for any additional instructions
15 because the authorities functioned normally. Muslims participated, and
16 in those terms those instructions were of not much use, if I may put it
17 that way, because we acted even without those instructions, obviously in
18 keeping with the provisions of the constitution of the state where we
19 lived at the time.
20 Q. Mr. Pasic --
21 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Sutherland, do you agree that line 23 of
22 previous page should read "Bosanski Novi was a Variant A municipality,"
23 not "Variant A and B"?
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Yes, please continue.
1 MS. SUTHERLAND:
2 Q. Mr. Pasic, in the report on the work of the Bosanski Novi
3 Crisis Staff -- you know the document that I'm referring to, don't you?
4 This is Exhibit P2632 in this case. You said in its original form the
5 municipal Crisis Staff was formed at the beginning of April by the
6 Municipal Board of the Serbian Democratic Party on the proposal and
7 according to instructs of higher organs of the SDS party. So you -- you
8 did form this municipal Crisis Staff, and you acted according to these
9 instructions that we've just been discussing, didn't you?
10 A. Yes. Sometime in the month of April, I don't know the exact date
11 but it was in 1992 in any case. That Crisis Staff was established
12 officially, and it became operational at that time. However, according
13 to those instructions, our Crisis Staff should have been set up even
14 before that. However, I did not feel the need to establish a
15 Crisis Staff, as I've already told you. A Crisis Staff is a
16 constitutional category, and it was provided for in the constitution of
17 the then Socialist Federative Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina. In an
18 immediate threat the war or in situations when legal bodies of local
19 community could not be called, a Crisis Staff was supposed to take over
20 their role and to operate under those circumstances.
21 Since the situation in Bosanski Novo before then was relatively
22 calm, in other words, conflicts had not escalated, there was no shooting,
23 there were no armed activities, although in 1991 Croatian Army did attack
24 the territory of Bosanski Novi. However --
25 Q. [Overlapping speakers] Mr. Pasic, can I interrupt you --
1 A. -- during that period of time.
2 Q. -- you're getting -- you're getting far away from -- from my
3 question. This Court's heard quite a bit of evidence that there was an
4 extended session of the deputy's club on the 14th of February, 1992, at
5 which Dr. Karadzic activated the second degree of Variant A and B. Now,
6 you were registered at the Holiday Inn where that meeting was held, were
7 you not?
8 A. I wanted to clarify the role of a Crisis Staff and why and when
9 the Crisis Staff was set up in Bosanski Novo. You interrupted me but
10 that's your problem.
11 I was at Holiday Inn once but I don't remember that on that
12 occasion when I was there there were discussions about Variants A and B.
13 I already said that once when I was here. I was given a receipt for
14 accommodation at that hotel, but I don't remember that I received that
15 receipt before, so I don't understand it when you put it to me that I
16 participated in the drafting of some documents.
17 Q. Mr. Pasic, I didn't put that to you. I simply asked you if you
18 were registered at the Holiday Inn where the meeting was held.
19 The receipt, as you say, which was shown to you in the Krajisnik
20 case was a receipt for both in your name and Mr. Dejanovic's name. There
21 were two Dejanovics in the SDS in -- in Bosanski Novi, weren't there?
22 A. Yes. If we are speaking in the masculine, then there were two
23 Dejanovics who were in the Serbian Democratic Party at the time, but I am
24 not aware of having slept with any one of them. If it were a woman,
25 perhaps it would have been different.
1 JUDGE KWON: Let me intervene here.
2 Ms. Sutherland, if you want the witness to answer simply, you
3 need to put the question simply. I read your question again, and then
4 you said there was an extended session of the deputies' club on the 4th
5 of February at which Dr. Karadzic activated the second degree of
6 Variant A and B, so the witness is fair enough to commented on that.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour, I take your point.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please proceed.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND:
10 Q. Yes, when you -- when you testified in the Krajisnik case, in
11 fact, you said just a moment ago that you -- you don't remember sharing a
12 room with Mr. Dejanovic, and you couldn't remember Mr. Karadzic
13 discussing this second level -- activating the second level. In fact, he
14 mentioned it on no less than four occasions in that extended session that
15 you -- that you say that you don't recall attending. Is that -- is that
16 still your -- you evidence that you -- that you don't recall attending
17 this meeting?
18 A. Well, I really cannot assert anything. First of all, later on I
19 saw some documents, and if we are talking about the same document, let's
20 call it Variant A and B, it seems to me that it's sometime in
21 December 1991 that it was passed, so I said that I did not attend that
23 Now, whether I attended some other session where probably there
24 was some discussion with regard to these activities, I really don't know.
25 I really cannot remember. However, what I can assert is that I never
1 slept in the Holiday Inn with any one of the Dejanovics.
2 Q. I'll move on. Mr. Pasic, in the report on the work of the
3 Crisis Staff, you make reference to the implementation of the
4 government's decision on disarming during the time period the 5th to the
5 11th of May, and in your statement you refer to a 4 May 1992 ARK decision
6 in -- it's in paragraph 10 of your statement. You're aware that this ARK
7 decision, which is Exhibit P02418 was issued pursuant to a republic level
8 order from General Subotic which is P02818, yes?
9 A. If I understood you correctly, you asked me whether this was in
10 keeping with some republican decree?
11 Q. Yes. Are you aware that this ARK decision was issued pursuant to
12 a republic level order from General Subotic? Are you aware of that?
13 A. Well, at the time I think I was not aware of that.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. I know that a decision arrived from Krajina, an order arrived,
16 and it was accepted in the sense of trying to establish some kind of
17 peace, because there was increasing danger coming from these groups,
18 military formations. I'm referring to both ethnic communities. I
19 accepted that as a solution to establish public law and order.
20 As for the relations between the AR Krajina and the republican
21 organs, at least at that point in time I was not aware of this being sent
22 from the very top or ordered.
23 Q. The fact of the matter is you were only disarming the Muslim
24 population, were you not?
25 A. No, that is not correct. There are many written records, many
1 documents showing the action that we were involved in; namely that all
2 paramilitary formations be placed under the command of the then staff of
3 the Territorial Defence as it was formulated in the former Yugoslavia,
4 and later on it was the organisation of the Army of Republika Srpska.
5 Actually, first it was the Army of the Serb Republic of
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina, later on Republika Srpska. I can even give you some
8 Q. Mr. Pasic --
9 A. We as the authorities --
10 Q. Sorry, I want to interrupt you there. You said that -- but by
11 definition then, anyone who -- who doesn't join the TO is a paramilitary
12 if a person owns a weapon; is that right?
13 A. Well, of course everything that is outside the institutions of a
14 system of a state is unlawful, that is to say any illegal keeping of
15 weapons by anyone is illegal and unlawful. We were aware that a large
16 number of people had weapons. I'm talking about the municipality of
17 Bosanski Novi, Novi Grad. We embarked upon this activity, and on the
18 basis of the decision that you mentioned, and we tried up until the
19 10th or 11th of May to deal with this in a normal way, that all of these
20 weapons of paramilitaries irrespective of ethnicity be placed under the
21 control of the staff of the TO or the civilian police. That was the
22 objective because --
23 Q. Mr. Pasic, the settlements named in the last paragraph of
24 paragraph 12 of your statement are all Muslim settlements, aren't they?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. There's no mention in your statement of -- of any Serb villages
2 that -- that were searched for weapons?
3 A. This is a question that would indeed require a lengthy answer.
4 However, you keep interrupting me, so I'm not in a position to complete
5 my thoughts and therefore you cannot understand my answers. If you allow
6 me, I shall try to respond.
7 JUDGE KWON: Please continue.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have say that in that period --
9 actually, we'd have to go back a bit. There was a generally difficult
10 situation throughout the former Yugoslavia. The winds of war had already
11 started blowing from Slovenia and Croatia. Bosanski Novi is on the very
12 border with Croatia or, rather, the then-Serb Republic of the Krajina.
13 We had a series of problems, even with small groups that were of Serb
14 ethnicity that unfortunately came from Dvor na Uni which is a
15 municipality on the other side of the border in Croatia, that is to say
16 the Krajina. We had a huge number of Serb refugees who used to live in
17 Croatia before that, in Zagreb and other Croatian cities, so the
18 situation was becoming evermore complex.
19 In Bosanski Novi, now that you've asked me whether we disarmed
20 the Serb population as well, I have to point out that the Serb population
21 did not feel that kind of need, not to that extent, as was probably felt.
22 I don't know what the motives were, fear of war or something else. Like
23 the Muslim population, the Serb population did not feel that they should
24 arm themselves to that extent so they were seeking some kind of
25 salvation, protection through legal institutions, lawful institutions
1 like the police, the Territorial Defence Staff. Unfortunately, most of
2 the Muslim population refused mobilisation as far as military formations
3 are concerned, legal military formations. They refused mobilisation.
4 They refused to work at the police station, although we asked them to.
5 We beseeched them, and we pointed out that it was dangerous, because if
6 they excluded themselves from the legal organs there would be a lack of
7 security felt among the civilian population, and there would be chaos.
8 And then the civilian population of Muslim ethnicity would not feel safe
9 as far as the legal organs were concerned. So I believe this is a
10 mistake. I believe this is a mistake precisely on the part of these
11 persons who avoided legal organs in the local commune like the TO staff,
12 like the public security station, and they avoided working in these
14 MS. SUTHERLAND:
15 Q. [Overlapping speakers] Your Honour --
16 A. And then of course the situation --
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Continue, but if you could be more succinct.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. It is hard to explain
19 this in two words only. I wish to say that unfortunately the situation
20 was that the Muslim population was avoiding institutions and organs that
21 existed, and that was a guarantee. And these people as they were
22 avoiding this obligation of theirs, if you will, indirectly placed
23 themselves in that position, and a large number of persons were arming
24 themselves illegally, and that was why this attempt was made to put all
25 of this within the framework of legal organs. I repeat, this is not only
1 in these villages that are mentioned but wherever it was learned that
2 there were such persons an attempt was made to disarm them. You
3 interrupted me when I was answering the last question, too, but I can
4 tell you something else. We also had some very unpleasant situations
5 when a person of Serb ethnic background was physically liquidated because
6 of disobedience vis-a-vis the legal institutions like the police,
7 et cetera.
8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Pasic, that's unnecessary. If you could focus
9 on answering the question.
10 Yes, please continue, Ms. Sutherland.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND:
12 Q. Mr. Pasic, just to pick up on something that you said on your
13 answer when you were giving that -- that lengthy answer a moment ago, you
14 said that the Serb population did not feel that they should arm
15 themselves. You -- you, in fact, were involved in the arming of the Serb
16 population in Bosanski Novi, were you not?
17 A. You mean whether I was personally involved in that?
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. I didn't quite understand that.
20 Q. Yes, you were personally involved.
21 A. Well, no. That was not my role, and that was not the role of the
22 Crisis Staff. Actually, there was no need. There were legal
23 institutions like the TO staff that had legal weapons, and therefore I
24 don't see any point.
25 Q. Mr. Pasic --
1 A. Why would I be doing that when --
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Well, if we can have a look at D01913.
3 Q. Mr. Pasic, this is a -- a document that was seized from the --
4 from Banja Luka CSB, and if we look at the last paragraph on the last
5 page of the document, on the third page of the document in English and
6 page 3 of the B/C/S -- first of all, the document is talking about a
7 review of the security relevant information for Bosanski Novi
8 municipality, and it says here citizens of Serbian ethnicity are
9 organised within the system of Territorial Defence mainly through the
10 efforts of Radomir Pasic, president of the Bosanski Novi Municipal
11 Assembly. So far about 1.300 Serbs have been armed mostly with automatic
12 infantry weapons and they control a considerable amount of equipment for
13 POB which is an anti-armour combat 90-millimetre -- 90-millimetre
14 launchers, 176 MM ZiS gun and a small amount of 82- and 120-millimetre
16 So that's contrary to what you just asserted, isn't it?
17 A. No. First of all, I don't know whose document this is. In my
18 view it doesn't really matter. I repeat, as far as the arming of the TO
19 staff is concerned, no additional efforts were required, so I don't see
20 what kind of role I could be playing in some kind of arming as referred
21 to in this information that you mentioned just now. I mean, really, I
22 don't know how this was conceived of. When I was president of the
23 Municipal Assembly and by May president of the Crisis Staff, how could I
24 affect not only the arming of the Serb population as mentioned here, it
25 turns out that these were some sort of paramilitaries, but this was not
1 what happened in practice, I mean.
2 Q. Well, Mr. Pasic, the JNA and the SDS were arming Serb volunteers
3 in the Bosanski Novi municipality, weren't they? And you were aware of
4 the JNA arming Serbs there, and you said as much in -- in the Krajisnik
5 trial when you testified, when you were shown what is Exhibit P00979 in
6 our case, which is a report from General Kukanjac dated the
7 20th of March, 1992, and it's a document that evaluates the military
8 situation in Bosnia and refers to the distribution of arms by the JNA and
9 the SDS, and in the attachment it states that Bosanski Novi, there were
10 1.000 Serb volunteers that were armed. And what you said in the
11 Krajisnik case was that you were aware that they were being unofficially
12 armed by the JNA, and that was at transcript page 19730 to 19733.
13 Now, recall that testimony?
14 A. I don't know whether the translation is right or whether you
15 mischaracterised my statement. As far as I can remember, I had stated
16 that unfortunately through some channels that I believed were secret ones
17 both ethnic communities were arming themselves. I'm referring to Serbs
18 and Muslims, because there weren't any Croats in the municipality of
19 Bosanski Novi. Very few were there, less than 1 per cent. So as for
20 this indicia, I think that people from the former JNA were arming
21 themselves. Where there where officers who were ethnic Serbs, I assume
22 that they were arming Serbs, and over there where there were Muslims, I
23 believe they were arming Muslims. But I believe that through different
24 channels weapons were being brought in, and in this secret arming it was
25 the Muslims that felt they had a greater need to do that because they had
1 opted not to take part in the TO and the public security station and
2 other lawful institutions and therefore they probably wanted to set up
3 their own parallel institutions and units.
4 I repeat, I'm not going say that the Serb population were not
5 armed. There certainly were weapons there, too, but not to such a
6 degree. There was not so much illegal weaponry, because they felt this
7 feeling of safety and security because of these legal institutions. I
8 have already said that. So this is a lesser degree of illegal weapons
9 among the Serb population in Bosanski Novi. That's why I believe that
10 because there were these legal formations there weren't so many illegal
11 weapons, and I don't see what I as president of the Municipal Assembly
12 was supposed to do by way of intervention when normally certain weapons
13 existed in accordance with the system of the then-Yugoslavia and all
14 municipalities had TO staffs. That's what it was called, the
15 Territorial Defence. That is to say in the territory --
16 JUDGE KWON: Let us clarify one thing, Mr. Pasic. You said in
17 your testimony that there was not so much illegal weaponry. So you admit
18 that then there were arming of legal institutions in your view?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I've already said if we take
20 into account that the former Yugoslavia, that is to say the JNA, was
21 there and some officers, some of Serb ethnicity and others of Muslim
22 ethnicity, I'm not saying that this was legal arming, but I'm saying that
23 this was one of the methods how people were arming themselves, through
24 certain secret channels the officers of the then army gave certain people
25 certain weapons. That's one of the ways in which this was done and then
1 there was this other way, weapons were being bought. And I mentioned in
2 Croatia a war was already underway by then, and I said that these were
3 not classical state borders between Croatia and Bosnia, and it was very
4 difficult to -- or, rather, it was not difficult to smuggle weapons and
5 military equipment across these borders. As a matter of fact, according
6 to some information the Serb population from the territory of Banja was
7 selling military weapons to the Muslim population. That was a problem
8 for Bosanski Novi. I said that this is a rather special municipality as
9 compared to some of the central municipalities in then
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The problem of the border, the problem of the war in
11 Croatia, smuggled weapons through secret channels so both could arm
12 themselves in that way.
13 I was just trying to explain this. This is my personal position,
14 my personal view.
15 JUDGE KWON: Let me put it this way --
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thought that the Serb population
17 had less of a need to do that.
18 JUDGE KWON: Let me put -- put a question this way: Take a look
19 at the document which is before you, which is one of the Defence
20 exhibits, D1913. Ms. Sutherland read out the paragraph:
21 "Citizens of Serbian ethnicity are organised within the system of
22 TO mainly through the efforts of Radomir Pasic, president of the
23 Bosanski Novi Municipal Assembly. So far about 1.300 Serbs have been
24 armed, mostly with automatic infantry weapons."
25 I'll stop there. So these 1.300 Serbs could be referring to the
1 members of the TO?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I repeat once again that I
3 really don't know who it was who wrote this document and what it was
4 supposed to be in relation to myself. If it is my merit, then it is true
5 that I insisted that the TO staff be manned according to mobilisation if
6 that is my merit. I repeat, I don't know how many people were armed, and
7 I must say that on the TO staff, well, I cannot say exactly by what time,
8 but even the commanders included some Muslims and then they were leaving
9 one by one, but one of them actually stayed on.
10 Now, how many people were armed? How many people were placed
11 under some kind of command and control of the TO staff? Only Serbs. I
12 really don't know. I really don't have that information. And on the
13 basis of what these 1.300 Serbs were referred to, I don't know how come.
14 I don't know where this information came from. Did it come from certain
15 units, battalions, brigades, something like that? I really don't know.
16 If I understood your question correctly, that is.
17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Back to you, Ms. Sutherland.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I omitted to say when I had no
19 objection to the statement being tendered by the Defence that I would be
20 seeking additional time to deal with a number of matters that are
21 contained within the new 20 paragraphs that we were provided with in the
22 early hours of Saturday morning.
23 JUDGE KWON: You have already two hours, but let's see how it
24 evolves at the [overlapping speakers]
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. I just wanted to alert you to
1 the fact that I -- I think I would be needing approximately another
2 45 minutes to deal with at least 10 of the 22 adjudicated facts that
3 Mr. Pasic deals with in his statement.
4 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
5 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Please continue.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND:
8 Q. Mr. Pasic, paragraph 20 -- 47 of your statement deals with
9 adjudicated fact 2283, and that concerns around the 9th of May, 1992, the
10 Bosanski Novi Crisis Staff under Radomir Pasic issued an ultimatum over
11 Bosanski Novi radio for Muslims in the municipality to hand in their
12 weapons within 24 hours. And you stated that no such order existed and
13 it never sought to disarm only one nation. I just want to take you to --
14 read some testimony of Mr. Midho Alic, who testified in the Krajisnik
15 trial at transcript page 2590 where he's asked and said:
16 "They said that the Muslims Bosniaks should surrender their
17 weapons. That was the -- that was what the announcement said."
18 And so there's a question:
19 "So the actual announcement said it wasn't just because your
20 village was only populated by Muslim, Blagaj Rajpa -- Japra," sorry.
21 And his answer was:
22 "No, it was not only on the radio, it was Ranko Grozdjen [phoen]
23 who told me that. His story was the same that Muslims should surrender
24 their weapons.
25 "Q. All right. So you're saying it didn't apply to everybody.
1 "A. No, it didn't.
2 "Q. And this particular radio station you're talking about, to
3 your knowledge are you aware to whom that particular radio station
5 "A. It broadcast to everybody, Muslims, Serbs, Croats. Everyone
6 could listen to this radio station."
7 The Crisis Staff used the radio to make announcements, didn't it?
8 You said -- you said as much in your Crisis Staff report that the utmost
9 use of the Bosanski radio should be made.
10 A. Well, radio Bosanski Novi is a local radio station which
11 broadcast all information, and often the Crisis Staff also made
12 declarations on the radio, but as I said, the point was to disarm all
13 paramilitaries irrespective of their ethnic affiliation. The statement
14 of the witness that you quoted may or may not have been competent to
15 speak about these things. I don't know that person. The name is not
16 familiar, so I cannot tell. But certainly it's a subjective assessment
17 of his.
18 Q. Well, Mr. Pasic, is the name Miroslav Vjestica, is that familiar
19 to you? Yes or no? Do -- do -- are you familiar with Vjestica from
20 Bosanska Krupa, a neighbouring municipality?
21 A. Yes, I know the name Miroslav Vjestica but not Miroslav Ristic.
22 Q. There must have been a mistranslation. I -- I said Vjestica. I
23 must have not spoken clearly. This is what he said on the
24 12th of May, 1992, at the 16th Assembly session. He said: As for
25 Bosanski Novi, let me tell you -- and this is at page 21 of the English
1 translation and B/C/S page 17. As for Bosanski Novi, let me tell you
2 that I was there yesterday. Bosanski Novi is sealed off. An ultimatum
3 has been issued and a dead-line set for the Muslims to surrender their
4 weapons. Some of them did, some did not. Yesterday there was shooting.
5 What will happen today? I believe they will surrender. The same is
6 going on in Sanski Most. I think that the Muslims will soon be disarmed
7 there too.
8 So that's the case, isn't it, that -- that you were disarming the
9 Muslim population?
10 A. I don't know what Mr. Miroslav Vjestica has said and in what
11 capacity. For one thing he isn't from the Bosanski Novi municipality at
12 all, if we are speaking about the same man. He is from Bosanska Krupa.
13 He lived up there.
14 Q. [Overlapping speakers] Mr. Pasic, he said I was there yesterday.
15 He said, I said I visited Bosanski Novi yesterday, i.e., the 11th of May,
16 so he has some personal knowledge of what he's talking about.
17 A. I can only repeat that I cannot speak for anyone else. I don't
18 know what he said and in what context he was and who he visited and what.
19 Bosanski Novi is a large place. It isn't just a spot. It is not one
20 office, it's a whole municipality, and where he was and with whom, I
21 don't know.
22 Q. Well, once the Muslims have been disarmed so that they couldn't
23 defend themselves, the Muslim villages were attacked. In -- in
24 paragraphs 49, 50, and 51 of your statement this relates to adjudicated
25 facts concerning the shelling of villages of Blagaj Rijeka, and
1 Blagaj Japra. And if I can -- if I can just say in relation to paragraph
2 48, there's a mistake in the adjudicated fact. It said adjudicated fact
3 2283 and in fact it should be adjudicated fact 2279. And in paragraph
4 49, also another mistake. It talks about adjudicated fact 2283 again and
5 it should be adjudicated fact 658. And in paragraph 51, it talks about
6 adjudicated fact 2284 and it should be 2290, and I apologise for not
7 alerting the Defence to that when they were tendering the statement or --
8 or before. But in any event, if we can go back to these facts. In fact,
9 looking at paragraph 50, you say in the days following the 9th of May,
10 1992 -- this is the adjudicated fact:
11 "In the days following 9 May 1992 Serb forces launched an attack
12 on Blago Japra using heavy artillery which had been positioned around the
13 village beforehand. Shells were fired into the village for two days and
14 JNA soldiers shot and wounded civilians."
15 And you said JNA did not officially exist in that period, and as
16 far as I can remember on 12th of May, 1992, the Army of Republika Srpska
17 of Bosnia-Herzegovina was officially formed. So the former staff TO
18 reformulated to the Army RS BiH. I have already previous stated that
19 there was not shelling --
20 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm lost, Ms. Sutherland.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: This is --
22 JUDGE KWON: Could you break down your question.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. This is Mr. Pasic's response.
24 This is in paragraph 50, the second paragraph to paragraph 50. He's
25 responding to the adjudicated fact that's put to him.
1 JUDGE KWON: So let's -- do you have your statement with you,
2 Mr. Pasic? Does the Defence have a copy of his statement?
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: We can put -- we can put it up on the screen.
4 JUDGE KWON: If the usher could assist.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: His statement is Exhibit D3849, and it's on page
6 20, I think.
7 Q. It's on page 16 of the B/C/S. And halfway through that second
8 paragraph of paragraph 50 you say: There was no shelling except --
9 exceptionally in the places where there was resistance, and I think that
10 our weapon carried -- and I think that that weapon carried -- kind of
11 shelling but heavy artillery as far as I ever known did not exist.
12 So it's your testimony that there was no shelling of -- of
13 Blagaj Japra in May 1992; correct?
14 A. I was a private in the army, and possibly we differ in
15 terminology when we speak about shelling, but as a layman I know that
16 there is light artillery and heavy artillery. So I may be wrong speaking
17 in layman's terms, but when I spoke about the light weaponry or heavy
18 artillery, when I said the latter I meant heavy howitzers, guns, tanks,
19 so larger armaments. I wanted to say that the TO staff didn't have such
20 weapons. There were light weapons, though, such as hand-held launchers,
21 mortars of small calibres. If you meant that when you said artillery,
22 maybe, but I explained giving my statement that I meant that there was
23 light weaponry but no heavy weapons. And when I said that there was no
24 shelling, I meant that there was no shelling from heavy howitzers, tanks,
25 rocket launchers, and stuff. I'm not aware of any one village being
1 shelled in that manner at that time. If we understand each other.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: May we go into closed session for a moment,
3 Your Honour.
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Sorry, private session.
6 [Private session]
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: Open session Your Honours.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND:
12 Q. Mr. Pasic, do you recall that shelling --
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ask why we were in closed
14 session if the witnesses were only mentioned by their codes --
16 JUDGE KWON: For that answer, we may have to go into private
17 session again.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour, I think I can deal with it
19 because they were -- they either testified in closed session or their
20 statements were tendered under seal so what I was reading out as
21 confidential information.
22 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND:
24 Q. Mr. Pasic do you remember shelling lasting for seven days? Yes
25 or no? Do you remember the shelling lasting for seven days? I -- we
1 really have -- I have limited time --
2 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is waiting for interpretation into
4 JUDGE KWON: Could you repeat your answer, Mr. Pasic.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that I cannot give a yes or
6 no answer to such a long question. The Prosecutor made quite a long
8 MS. SUTHERLAND:
9 Q. Mr. Pasic, I was -- I was putting to you witness testimony about
10 the shelling of Blagaj Japra and Blagaj Rijeka, and I said to you: Do
11 you remember the shelling lasting for seven days. That was my question.
12 A. Yes, but you put forward a number of facts to which I should
13 reply before answering. We cannot skip them all.
14 Q. Mr. Pasic, you've already said that in your view there were no
15 heavy weapons used. I was --
16 A. Why -- why then ask me again? You put forward allegations that
17 there were tanks with red, white, and blue flags. Red, white, and blue
18 is the Croatian flag. I'm not aware of that happening. And there were
19 no tanks at all, by the way. Or at least I didn't know that the
20 Croatian Army had entered the Japra Valley.
21 Q. Again I will ask you: Do you remember the shelling lasting for
22 seven days?
23 A. I have already stated, and I can repeat that I'm not aware of any
24 heavy shelling, and I've given -- and I gave reasons. Whether there was
25 shelling from light infantry weapons such as hand-held launchers and how
1 long it went on I cannot say. And as for the duration of the operations,
2 well, you can easily forget some things given how long ago it was --
3 Q. Well, this was the --
4 A. -- but there was some resistance in some villages to attempts at
5 disarming the people.
6 Q. [Overlapping speakers] this -- this was -- this was the first
7 heavy -- the first attack in the municipality, wasn't it? You would
8 certainly remember that.
9 A. The first attack officially happened at Blagaj when unknown
10 perpetrators attacked a military police vehicle belonging to the TO
11 staff. That was the first attack.
12 Q. That was on the 10th of May, and that was when you then searched
13 all these Muslim villages for weapons; correct? That was one incident
14 where an unknown person fired at a -- at a-- on the road between Novi and
15 Banja Luka -- Prijedor, sorry.
16 A. Well, you are --
17 Q. I'm talking about an attack. I'm talking about Blagaj. That was
18 first heavy attack in the municipality, was it not?
19 A. I said that the first attack happened in the night of the
20 10th of May when the military police of the TO staff was attacked, and as
21 far as I know, the perpetrators were unknown. I don't know if there was
22 one or more perpetrators. You said that there was one, I believe, so you
23 seem to have information that I don't have.
24 Q. Mr. Pasic, could you hear the shelling?
25 A. No. Since where I lived in my family house which is some
1 15 kilometres or more away, when that happened I got information over the
2 radio because we didn't have regular phones at the time. I got
3 information from the TO staff that someone had shot at the military
4 police at Blagaj and that the situation is unclear --
5 Q. I'm talking about --
6 A. -- that there is no certain information --
7 Q. [Overlapping speakers] that lasted over seven days. Did you not
8 hear that? Did you not go to work in the municipal building in those
9 seven days?
10 A. Well, if you're asking me about shelling and supposing that there
11 was shelling in the Japra valley, it again depends on the calibre of
12 weapons used. And some shooting could not be heard in the municipal
13 building. So if there was shooting from infantry weapons or hand-held
14 launchers, it was impossible to hear there because the distance is some
15 15 to 20 kilometres. It's a valley. It might be a good thing to look at
16 it on a map here so we could see -- all of us could see for ourselves.
17 So probably the walls would block the sound.
18 If you are specifically asking me if I heard any shooting with my
19 own ears my answer is no. Certainly there was some information from
20 people saying that there was some operations underway and, yes, I did
21 have such information. But I must point out once more that I don't know
22 how long that operation went on. Was it six days, seven days, two days,
23 I really cannot tell you.
24 Q. Mr. Pasic, DanCon could hear it from across the river. That's
25 Exhibit P03818. On the 11th of May at 1600 hours they said: There were
1 reports of heavy funs and machine gun fire, probably tank guns and
2 20-millimetres. And they saw two houses were burnt. And this is -- this
3 is what the MUP reported. And if we could have 65 ter 07 -- sorry, 06737
4 on the screen, please. The document that's coming up, Mr. Pasic, is a
5 report from the security services centre in Banja Luka to the
6 Serbian Republic BiH MUP and to all Chief of Staffs, and it's dated the
7 12th of May, 1992. And it says there members -- members of the Muslim
8 nationality put up a barricade in Blagaj village and members of the
9 Bosanski Novi Territorial Defence carried out a mortar attack on the
10 village. This is on page 2 of the English.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please get a verbatim
12 quotation of the sentence in question about Bosanski Novi?
13 MS. SUTHERLAND:
14 Q. "Members of the Bosanski Novi TO carried out a mortar attack on
15 Blagaj village at 2100 hours."
16 Mr. Pasic, your report on the work of the Crisis Staffs also
17 mentions artillery fire during this attack. Do you remember that? And
18 that's at the bottom of page 4, the top of page 5 of your report. That's
20 A. I don't know if there are -- misunderstandings are due to the
21 interpretation or -- when I said that I didn't hear shooting, I
22 specifically meant the attack in the night of the 10th. I didn't hear
23 that kind of attack because at that time I was in my house. Whether
24 anybody heard, and you mention a certain Mr. DanCon and where he was and
25 where he heard it and when, I really don't know. So we're talking about
1 some dates but we obviously don't understanding each other, at least it
2 was not put clearly enough to me in the interpretation. If you have
3 solid information, then please give it to me, which day, which hour, and
4 so on. If I remember, I will tell you, but don't put hypothetical things
5 to me in a period of 10 or 15 or 50 days because the situation changed
6 from minute to minute.
7 Q. Mr. Mr. Pasic --
8 A. Though if -- I would kindly ask you to specifically tell me which
9 shelling you mean and which date and at what hour.
10 Q. I'm talking about the shelling that started on the 11th of May,
11 1992, and continued for seven days. The DanCon that I mentioned a moment
12 ago - I'm sorry for giving you the acronym, I thought that you may be
13 familiar - it's the Danish contingent which was across the River Una.
14 But I will put -- I won't be putting anything hypothetical to you. I put
15 it to you that the attack on Blagaj was on your orders.
16 A. You obviously are not familiar with the role of the president of
17 the Municipal Assembly, and I could speak at length about that. The
18 president of the Municipal Assembly or the president of the Crisis Staff
19 never had the authority to issue such orders. Consequently I didn't
20 issue one, I couldn't. I didn't have the authority to do so to activate
21 or disactivate anything in the military sense. The whole organisation of
22 command along military lines is such. When the military police were
23 attacked, I don't know who but someone from the TO staff must have
24 reacted to that action. So there was a reaction to the attack on the
25 military police.
1 Q. Just --
2 A. I was informed after that. I went to the TO staff -- you're
3 interrupting me.
4 Q. I am interrupting you. You went to the TO staff. Is it your
5 position you didn't order the shelling of Blagaj Japra? Just in a
6 yes-or-no answer.
7 A. I cannot answer that way. I have already stated my reasons.
8 Q. You've just said about chain of command. You -- I just want
9 you -- I want to be very clear about -- about your -- your testimony.
10 A. No, you're not clear at all. We're speaking about shelling.
11 Shelling is not such a clearly defined term. First you must tell me what
12 you mean by shelling for me to be able to answer.
13 JUDGE KWON: Could you answer then whether you went to the TO
14 staff and you ordered an attack?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, here it goes: Well, I was
16 informed and went to the TO staff. Together with me the SDA president,
17 Izet Muhamedagic, went there, and these actions were already underway.
18 We only went there to get information about what had happened. I didn't
19 issue any orders, and I couldn't.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND:
21 Q. [Overlapping speakers] okay. You've answered the question. If I
22 could have --
23 JUDGE KWON: Let -- let us hear him out. Yes, continue.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I wanted to say that at
25 that moment when we arrived at the TO staff we -- or, rather, I suggested
1 that we invite Izet Muhamedagic who was president of the Municipal Board
2 of the SDA party because I considered him to be a man of good reputation
3 among the Muslims to see why that attack had happened and try to prevent
4 an escalation, and the gentleman turned up at the TO staff and we agreed
5 to issue a joint declaration that would be broadcast on the local radio
6 station on the next morning, and that gentleman was full of understanding
7 and agreement with Mr. Muhamedagic. We appealed to the people. That is
8 he was the first one to do so, saying that all Muslims who had weapons,
9 that they should refrain from any attacks in connection with the attack
10 at Blagaj during the previous night. I, too, as the president of the
11 Municipal Assembly appealed to all citizens of the municipality to
12 refrain from any arbitrary action and we gave instructions saying that
13 the legal bodies such as the TO and the public security station would do
14 their utmost to preserve law and order. That is what happened during
15 that night and what I know in connection with that attack.
16 What kind of impact it had in the context of the armed attack of
17 that night I cannot say. If you understand me correctly, then you would
18 have understood that it was my task as president of the
19 Municipal Assembly to try to act to -- in terms of general prevention
20 over the radio. So both I and the SDA president, we are both persons in
21 public office who tried to prevent escalation. However, there wasn't
22 much effect, and the situation on the ground evolved more chaotically so
23 that both ethnicities, both ethnic groups acted the way they thought
24 proper. Both me and Mr. Muhamedagic were dissatisfied or at least I was
25 with -- dissatisfied with what we had made public. And on the ground it
1 was very different. There was shooting, there was refusal to disarm, and
2 so on.
3 JUDGE KWON: So the answer was no.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you mean the order, if this is
5 what you have in mind, the answer is yes -- or, rather, no.
6 JUDGE KWON: So I take it that as a lawyer by profession, you
7 should be able to answer succinctly. You may be offered why as to --
8 offered an opportunity to explain your position later on, but if you
9 could concentrate on answering the question more succinctly. Do you
10 understand that, sir?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you asked me whether I had
12 issued that order, then the answer is no.
13 JUDGE KWON: Given the time, we'll have a break for half an hour.
14 Ms. Sutherland, you spent so far about an hour, so I take it you
15 may be able to finish your cross-examination in an hour's time. But let
16 us see how it --
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. The witness is giving
18 extraordinarily long answers, at least 20 lines of transcript to
19 practically every question. So I would respectfully ask if that could be
20 taken into account.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll resume at 5 past 11.00.
23 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.
24 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.
25 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Ms. Sutherland.
1 MS. SUTHERLAND:
2 Q. Mr. Pasic, if we can continue where we left off. If I could have
3 65 ter number 32814, please.
4 Mr. Pasic, this is -- this is a Croatian intercept, and if we
5 can -- I can draw your attention to the second paragraph of -- of the
6 document that will come up on the screen. Here's what's reported up the
7 5th Corps chain of command on the 11th of May, 1992, by Major Zeljaja.
8 Now, you know Major Zeljaja is from the neighbouring municipality of
9 Prijedor, don't you? He was the deputy commander of the -- what was then
10 the 343rd -- 334 -- 343rd Motorised Brigade in Prijedor. And this is
11 what he says.
12 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me. She's not giving him a chance to
13 answer any questions. She asked him: You know this person and then she
14 just kept going on. He needs to answer the question before she moves on
15 to the next part of her question.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Point taken.
17 Q. Mr. Pasic, do you know Major Zeljaja?
18 A. I heard of him. I may have seen him once or twice. I can't
19 remember. I don't even know where I saw him. He was not in Novi Grad
20 municipality, so his name doesn't mean that much to me.
21 Q. Okay. This is what he's reporting up his chain of command:
22 "At 1840 hours, Major Zeljaja informed Colonel Devic who
23 forwarded the information to the general that the following event took
24 place in Blagaj: According to the order of president of Bosanski Novi
25 municipality, the Serbs opened fire at Muslim villages from artillery and
1 mortars. That was not necessary because the measures had been already
2 taken; everyone had been disarmed and everything had been 'ocisceno'
3 'mopped up or cleansed.' They are completely crazy extremists led by the
4 municipality president."
5 So this document here has the military being intercepted by the
6 Croatian authorities and says that you ordered the attack on the village.
7 You did issue orders to the TO to shell -- and others to shell Muslim
8 villages; right?
9 A. No. This is another leading question. I've already answered. I
10 can repeat a hundred times. I didn't issue any order. I don't know
11 where Mr. Zeljaja got this information from. I don't know that. And his
12 use of their derogatory terms, that's up to him. In any case, things
13 like that did not happen, and I adhere by what I previously stated.
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I'd ask that this be marked for
15 identification at this stage, please.
16 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.
17 JUDGE KWON: But you agree that you were the then president of
18 Bosanski Novi municipality. Yes. We'll mark it for identification.
19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6436 marked for identification,
20 Your Honours.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND:
22 Q. Mr. Pasic, in paragraphs 54 and 55 of your statement referring to
23 adjudicated facts 2285 and 611, you -- you state that there was no
24 shelling of these villages, there was no heavy artillery, and this is --
25 this is the Muslim villages in the Japra valley such as Hozici and Agici.
1 You say that you think that shelling and arson didn't exist but -- but it
2 could have been by unknown persons. You state that you think that it
3 simply -- the village guards, Serbs in the Serbian villages and Muslims
4 in the Muslim villages shooting at each other. We have a report which is
5 from the chief of the SJB in Bosanski Novi, and that's part of
6 Exhibit D00470 where he details events from April until August, and in
7 that document at e-court page 17 in the English and page 22 in the B/C/S,
8 he says that as a result of -- of this one incident with the military
9 police patrol that as a result of that a series of combat operations were
10 directed against areas and villages with a majority Muslim population,
11 and then he goes on to say: All the combat operations mentioned above
12 were carried out by armed uniformed mean who were either self-organised
13 or members of the TO or JNA combat units. And in fact if I can just take
14 you to some testimony which was given by Midho Alic in the Krajisnik
15 case, and this is at transcript page 2518 to 2519 and 2520 to 2521, and
16 he says there about seeing a tank surrounded by Serb soldiers people from
17 reserve unit forces. And he was asked: Was the removal of people from
18 your village -- did it appear to be organised or did it appear to be a
19 random event carried out by paramilitary organisations? "It was" --
20 "A. It was organised. Everything was organised. First the
21 entire Japra valley was pushed into Blagaj Japra and then everyone who
22 found themselves in Blagaj Japra was moved on."
23 And then as they were walking out he saw the houses and barns
25 Another gentleman BT 83 talks about the shelling on the
1 12th of May and this is at transcript pages 14055 to 58, the soldiers
2 start moving towards the village and then as the shelling began, more and
3 more people were coming in -- in vehicles and -- and cars or whatever.
4 So it's a fact, isn't it, that -- that it wasn't organised by
5 the -- by the TO forces and others and JNA combat units and it wasn't
6 simply these paramilitaries as you speak of.
7 A. You're asking me to answer your questions and I don't know
8 anything about that, and you want me to provide a brief answer. First of
9 all, you're presenting facts which are not correct, and I would have to
10 provide a lengthy answer.
11 I've already said that during that period of time the JNA no
12 longer existed, so the JNA could not be involved in any operations there
13 because it didn't exist. I told you what the role of the TO staff was
14 and how it acted. You obviously did not understand what the role of the
15 president of a Municipal Assembly was and what my role was. My role
16 concerned the civilian part of the tasks, if I may put it that way, and
17 the subordination along the command lines, along the military command
18 lines did not exist nor could it exist. I was not in a position to issue
19 orders or command certain operations as you are putting it to me.
20 The witness that you mentioned, I really don't know who that is.
21 I don't think that the municipality of Bosanski Novi is aware of him
22 having discharged any duties and based on that being able to say
23 something more relevant about those events. I don't know whether that
24 was his personal perception. I don't know that. However, what you
25 presented in your question I would like to say that I still adhere by the
1 same things and that the term "shelling" has not been fully explained,
2 and you are persisting and you are insisting on claiming that the TO
3 staff had heavy artillery and that they opened fire on villages, and I
4 adhere by the fact that the TO staff did not have heavy artillery, that
5 they didn't open fire without any reason, and this is what I'm telling
6 you from my knowledge. And there were places where resistance was being
7 put up, and there was fire being opened from there, and they were the
8 ones who were involved in certain activities.
9 According to your question, you are trying to say that those
10 people were completely helpless, that they had not been involved in any
11 activities and that there was shelling against them, and that's what you
13 I didn't say that. I wasn't witness to that. In my view, that
14 didn't happen. When the TO staff organised actions, and they did, but
15 those were just attempts to disarm those paramilitary formations, and
16 wherever there was resistance to those attempts reactions ensued.
17 Q. So these --
18 A. Those were armed actions if we may call it that way.
19 Q. So these paramilitary formations that you're talking about you're
20 saying that they're Muslim formations and they were shelling themselves,
21 were they?
22 A. You did not understand me well. This is an ironic question. My
23 answer was not ironic. You cannot present my thoughts in any way you
24 want because this is not what I said.
25 Q. Mr. Pasic, I want to move on now to talk about civilian matters.
1 In -- in -- it's your position now and always has been that the non-Serb
2 population were leaving Bosanski Novi of their own free will. They
3 voluntarily left; is that correct?
4 A. Yes. If we're talking about the departure of Muslims which was
5 organised at the request of Muslim representatives.
6 Q. And you say the only reason there were discussions about Muslims
7 leaving was because you couldn't protect them; right?
8 A. Unfortunately, that was true. I already told you that we had a
9 big problem, and when I said "we," I mean the institutions of local
10 authorities. We had a big problem with paramilitary formations which
11 also involved Serbs. Those were primarily groups that had illegally
12 crossed the River Una which is in Croatia now and they were under
13 nobody's control. They were not under the control of any civilian or
14 military authorities in Novi Grad. They presented a huge problem to us.
15 We didn't know how to establish public law and order. We felt
16 insecurity. Everybody did. Not only Muslims, the Serbs as well felt
17 insecurity. The war already waged in Bosnia-Herzegovina. People were
18 dying on the front lines. People felt insecurity even in the depth of
19 the territory where there were no military activities, and those were due
20 to groups that were not under anybody's control. We could not put them
21 under our control, and I've already told you why. One of the reasons was
22 the fact that those people did not hail from our own municipality.
23 Q. Mr. Pasic, the fact is -- a big factor in suggesting these
24 evacuations was the threat that the Muslims were supposedly posing to the
25 Serbs; correct?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Okay. Let's look at Exhibit P9-- 2918, sorry. P2918.
3 Mr. Pasic, you're familiar with this document you've seen it before.
4 It's a document dated the 8th of June, and it's issued by the
5 Bosanski Novi Crisis Staff, and it informs citizens of Blagaj and the
6 Japra valley that the Crisis Staff is ready to enable them to move out in
7 an organised column and basically if they refuse this offer the
8 Crisis Staff is unable to ensure their safety.
9 Now, we can see this is signed on your behalf. Can you make out
10 the signature?
11 A. It's rather illegible. I cannot --
12 Q. We actually have a --
13 A. -- decipher the signature.
14 Q. We have a better copy here which can be passed to you.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Mr. Usher. If it can be placed on the ELMO.
16 JUDGE KWON: We have it here so we don't have to put it on the
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes.
19 Q. Mr. Pasic, it -- this -- this document, this doesn't seem to be
20 like the Muslims are leaving voluntarily.
21 A. You asked me about the signature. So let's take things at a
22 time. I can't decipher the signature. I don't know who signed the
24 Q. Okay. Do you --
25 A. May I continue?
1 Q. Do you call this voluntary?
2 A. Whatever I've already said and whatever I've stated is not
3 contrary to this information. I don't see that anybody threatened or
4 forced people to do what they didn't want to do. This is just a piece of
5 information. And you see that the Crisis Staff is trying to portray the
6 real situation, and they say that they cannot provide any absolute
7 guarantees not only to the non-Serbians but to anybody. I believe that,
8 and I assume that there was a greater fear among Muslims, but we could
9 not provide them with any guarantees that their houses, property, and
10 lives would be safe. In that sense this information was dispatched. I
11 don't know who signed on my behalf, but that was the gist of the text.
12 The representatives of the Muslims wanted to leave voluntarily. They --
13 they wanted to leave Novi Grad of their own will, and this is what we are
14 constantly being blamed for. We are being blamed of trying to put
15 pressure on them to leave in an organised manner. I still adhere by my
16 previous claim, and that is that not for a single moment did legal
17 authorities, and I mean the municipal bodies, the SJB, the TO staff, the
18 Executive Council of the municipality, the Crisis Staff, not for a single
19 moment there was a willingness among them to forcibly remove people from
20 their own houses and from their own homes. But you have to understand
21 that there was a whirlwind of war, and Bosanski Novi was not isolated. A
22 climate of instability had been created, and nobody trusted anybody
23 irrespective of the position they occupied. It was impossible to provide
24 anybody with guarantees of safety and ask them to -- to stay.
25 This is the sense of this information. It says here that for
1 objective reasons we are not able to take that kind of risk upon
2 ourselves. We cannot say -- we cannot tell anybody that they can go on
3 living safely here. This is the gist of this message, and I am
4 interpreting what you can read. So I suppose that those people were
5 aware of the situation. They were aware of the overall situation in
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that's why they wanted to withdraw, to move out,
7 to resettle, call it what you will, from the area in order to wait for
8 the end of the war and for an opportunity to come back home.
9 This was the gist of this information where they really expressed
10 the desire to temporarily leave the area and wait for the end of the war,
11 and that's what we heard in conversations.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to slow down.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There are several reasons and
14 motives for that.
15 JUDGE KWON: Are please speak slowly and simply.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND:
17 Q. Mr. Pasic, in paragraph 58 you say that there's no motive, no
18 desire, to intention to evict the population. In fact, that -- that's
19 not true. There was a policy to remove the Muslim population.
20 You -- at this time, this document's dated the 8th of -- of -- of
21 June, but -- but the day before that, on the 7th of June, there was a
22 meeting of representatives of seven municipalities in the Sana-Una
23 region, and that's Exhibit P02641, and at that meeting --
24 JUDGE KWON: Before moving off from this document.
25 Mr. Pasic, do you agree that this is your document, whoever
1 signed this document?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, now -- well, not my document.
3 It says Crisis Staff up here, and it's probably somebody who signed this
4 on behalf of the "Crisis Staff", so let's say yes.
5 JUDGE KWON: I note that from the -- through the e-court it was
6 admitted only for reference purpose and now we can admit it in full.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Please continue.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: And if Mr. Usher can get the original back from
10 Mr. Pasic.
11 Q. Mr. Pasic in this meeting in -- held in Sanski Most on the
12 7th of June, there was municipalities' representatives from Bihac,
13 Bosanski Petrovac, Srpska Krupa, which I take to be Bosanska Krupa,
14 Sanski Most, Prijedor, Bosanski Novi, and Kljuc. And these conclusions
15 were sent to the Crisis Staff of the autonomous region Krajina, the
16 leadership of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina in Sarajevo,
17 and to the 1st Krajina Corps in Banja Luka.
18 Now, the sixth demand at this meeting was that:
19 "All seven municipalities in our subregion agree that Muslims and
20 Croats should move out of our municipalities until a level is reached
21 where Serbian authority can be maintained and implemented on its own
22 territory in each of these municipalities."
23 If we --
24 A. Was that a question?
25 Q. -- just pause there. We're having -- problem getting the
1 document up. Now, do you recall attending this meeting on the
2 7th of June?
3 A. Well, I remember some meetings. Well, look, these were very
4 tempestuous times. It's hard to tell which day it was. I know that
5 sometimes I had meetings in Prijedor, Novi, Sanski Most, Banja Luka, but
6 specifically on that day I cannot say with full certainty that I was
7 there. Well, it's possible that I was there, but I don't know what you
8 meant, what you're asking about. Actually, I don't find that very clear
9 so I cannot say with certainty that I was in Sanski Most on that day.
10 Also take into account all the time that's elapsed.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the provenance of this
12 document if we cannot see it?
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Can the document not be brought up in e-court?
14 2641, P2641. Now, if we can go to the second page.
15 Q. We can see the sixth point -- bullet point, and we can also see a
16 stamp at the bottom. I think it says SDS Municipal Board in Sanski Most.
17 Now, do you recall being at this meeting where this -- sorry, you
18 said that you attended many meetings in Prijedor and Sanski Most, but
19 with this particular aspect, did you attend meetings where this issue was
20 discussed about moving people out?
21 A. Well, I've already said that I cannot recall the exact date when
22 I was in Sanski Most, and at other meetings, of course, but I do know
23 that meetings were held in relation to war developments and the
24 possibility of resolving problems related to supplies, electricity, fuel,
25 crude oil, petrol. All communications were cut off, both facing Serbia
1 and Croatia. So there was a series of problems, and this escalated --
2 Q. Mr. -- Mr. --
3 A. I mean, there were such discussions but --
4 Q. You remember going to meetings and you remember talking about
5 supplies and electricity and fuel, but you don't recall meetings where
6 they were discussing moving out the territory to an acceptable level? Is
7 that your evidence?
8 A. Well, you're either getting misinterpretations or you and I
9 simply do not understand each other. I'm not trying to avoid your
10 questions in any way, but you have to put them in a specific manner. I
11 am telling you about the things I remember.
12 I know that at such meetings there were discussions, and I was
13 specifically talking about the municipality I came from. There was this
14 willingness, so part of the Muslim population, not everybody, wanted to
15 leave the territory of then Bosanski Novi temporarily.
16 Q. Mr. -- Mr. Pasic, sorry --
17 A. However, I was not saying that that was the only discussion that
18 took place.
19 Q. We're just seeing the beginning of this paragraph and it says:
20 All seven municipalities in our subregion, of which Bosanski Novi is one,
21 agree that Muslims and Croats should move out of our municipalities until
22 a level is reached. My question is: Is it your evidence that you do
23 not -- you do not recall attending meetings where this was discussed
24 and you -- and -- and -- and if the answer is no to that, that you
25 weren't briefed by whoever the representative from Bosanski Novi was on
1 such an important issue as moving the population out of your municipality
2 of which you're the president of?
3 JUDGE BAIRD: Ms. Sutherland, may I make a suggestion.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE BAIRD: Can he answer the first question first before we go
6 to the second one?
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes.
8 JUDGE BAIRD: Thank you.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Mr. Pasic, I think I've asked you a couple of times now. Is it
11 your -- is it your position that you don't recall attending any meetings,
12 whether it's on the 7th of June or the 14th of June, where these sorts of
13 issues were discussed? Now, you can remember attending meetings about
14 electricity and so forth, but is it your evidence that you don't recall
15 attending meetings to discuss -- that discuss this issue?
16 A. You interrupt me very often and I cannot give adequate answers to
17 certain questions. It's as if you were trying to confuse me, but that's
18 not the issue. You are not going to confuse me. I want to provide the
19 truth, and I want to provide accurate information. So all of this works
20 to your detriment, not mine, because you're the one who's interrupting
21 me. I said that I attended numerous meetings and --
22 JUDGE KWON: No. No. It is for the Prosecution to ask you
23 questions. It's for you to answer the question.
24 You have before you a document which is called "Conclusion,"
25 which we have admitted into our evidence. She read out a certain passage
1 in point 6, and the question was whether you remember -- you remember
2 having attended a meeting where such issue was discussed. Your answer
3 could be no or yes.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not remember these things,
5 that it was only this that was discussed.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND:
7 Q. So the second question --
8 JUDGE KWON: I don't understand you, "I do not remember these
9 things, that it was only this that was discussed." So you remember
10 having attended meetings where this kind of issue was a part of the
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you cannot understand when
13 you're just asking me to give a yes or no answer. It's impossible to
14 answer that way.
15 JUDGE KWON: Then it's your problem. Yes, please continue.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I think I understood Mr. Pasic as
17 saying that only electricity and fuel and supplies were -- were
18 discussed. He --
19 Q. Is that correct, Mr. Pasic?
20 A. That's not correct. I've been trying to be of assistance here,
21 to say how things happened, but with these frequent interruptions you
22 cannot give -- you cannot get the right information from me, and you
23 either don't want to listen to me or you cannot just give yes or no
25 It was not that there was just one item on the agenda at a single
1 meeting and it was not only one thing that was discussed at a meeting.
2 And I who attended these meetings, I did not review the conclusions how
3 somebody formulated this. Somebody could present this in a different
4 way, get the wording wrong without me knowing about it.
5 At these meetings as I've already said it wasn't that it was only
6 electricity, water, telephones that were discussed, but also the problem
7 of part of -- well, everybody presented their own problems. Specifically
8 I at these meetings presented the problem that had to do with the
9 municipality of Novi Grad. I presented the problem that part of the
10 Muslim population from the territory of the municipality of Bosanski Novi
11 wanted to go to third countries in Western Europe and also that we had
12 certain discussions with representatives of the UN where they
13 categorically refused that from the very outset and it was the
14 representatives of the Muslims that insisted on this. So these were the
15 discussions that were held. These are conclusion -- the conclusions that
16 I have. I cannot remember that, but it's very hard to just give a yes or
17 no answer, because this is not the only information that can be provided
18 and you cannot get the right idea what was happening at these meetings
19 and how certain conclusions were made. If you want to get the right kind
20 of information then these things have to be talked about a lot more
22 As for the environment that we were at the time, there was a
23 series of circumstances that affected everything, and also this text
24 itself. I mean, I almost never saw the form in which it was written.
25 Perhaps somebody wrote something like that in such strong language out of
1 ignorance, and now that is being abused. But I still stand by the fact
2 that you unfortunately do not believe because you keep saying that we
3 wanted to expel the Muslims. That was not the objective of the
4 Crisis Staff or of my own or of the authorities of Novi Grad.
5 JUDGE KWON: Probably the question was not precisely formulated.
6 Do you remember having attended a meeting where a conclusion reached to
7 the effect that Muslims and Croats should move out of your municipalities
8 until a level is reached where Serbian authority can be maintained and
9 implemented on its own territory in each of these municipalities?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I do not recall.
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Sutherland.
12 MS. SUTHERLAND:
13 Q. Do you recall being advised by anyone else from the Bosanski Novi
14 municipality of this?
15 A. You mean meetings like this where this was --
16 Q. No, this specific issue. Do you ever -- do you recall being
17 briefed by someone else from Bosanski Novi that this issue had been
19 A. Well, look, quite simply even if we had that wish, there was no
20 need for that, and there was no need for us to talk about this or think
21 about this. The Crisis Staff did not need to think about this for a
22 simple reason: Muslims were initiating their open departure. That is to
23 say their representatives were asking for that. So what you've been
24 asking me about, there was simply no need for that because the
25 representatives of the Muslim people were seeking ways and means of
1 moving out of the municipality of Novi Grad. Quite simply this question
2 could not have been brought up as such because there was not that kind of
3 environment for us to be thinking about that; that is to say we did not
4 have any need to think about that. For us to force someone to leave that
5 would have meant that somebody was resisting that. You keep saying
6 persecution, that these people were driven out. No. These people just
7 asked us as representatives of the authorities to help us find the most
8 adequate, painless, and best solutions to leave this area. There was no
9 need for that kind of thing, and it did not -- it was not supposed to
10 exist in the first place, and I don't know whether you understand me and
11 what you were trying to say in the first place.
12 Q. If we can just go to page 1 of this document. Mr. Pasic, you'll
13 see that demand number 4 -- well, conclusion number 4 of this subregional
14 meeting which included Bosanski Novi, you demand that the
15 1st Krajina Corps in Banja Luka, particularly General Momir Talic of the
16 1st Krajina Corps purged the 1 KK of Muslims and Croatia. Now, do you
17 remember being at a meeting when that was discussed?
18 A. I remember this question because you insist on it so much. I
19 think that someone allegedly stated that, I think from the government of
20 the ARK Krajina. I really do not recall this context, that it existed
21 that way. I think that this is formulated in the wrong way. This is my
22 personal position.
23 What was meant was that there were certain people, by now it was
24 already the Army of Republika Srpska. There were certain people of other
25 ethnicities worked along parallel lines for the VRS and also for the army
1 of the Muslims. What was it called, the so-called Bosnia-Herzegovina at
2 the time. So I think from that point of view attention was supposed to
3 be paid to this kind of thing, espionage, treason if we can call it that.
4 I'm not saying that this is my personal position. I mean, I'm not saying
5 that it's the way it is written here, but during my earlier testimony
6 when I looked at these documents, again I'm saying that this is my
7 subjective observation. I'm not making any assertions here, but also I
8 cannot refute the story that we read here. However, I repeat once again
9 that at these meetings my only problem was the situation on the ground in
10 the municipality of Bosnia-Herzegovina. In principle I'm not saying that
11 I wasn't interested in how things were in other municipalities, but I was
12 not competent to decide on the situation in Sanski Most, Kljuc,
13 Banja Luka, any other municipality. That was not within my own purview.
14 I could simply take note of that and --
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I've avoided interrupting the
16 witness up until now but he's being unresponsive to the -- to the
17 question and getting far away from -- from what I was asking him.
18 JUDGE KWON: Please continue.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we have a 65 ter number 05758 on the screen,
21 Q. Mr. Pasic, this is a command of the 1st Krajina Corps report on
22 the ARK Crisis Staff decision submitted to the Serbian Republic of
23 BiH Army Main Staff and to the Serbian Republic BH Presidency, and it
24 states that one of the issues that was discussed at yesterday's session
25 of the ARK Crisis Staff was the general -- there's no policy in the army
1 of the 1st Krajina Corps, and it states that an ultimatum was issued
2 requesting the removal of 67 officers of Muslim and Croat nationality.
3 And then it states that the 1st Krajina Corps consider that the demand to
4 be justified.
5 So it appears, does it not, that these people, for the reasons
6 that were discussed at the 7th of June, 1992, meeting, were not going to
7 be permitted to return once they were removed.
8 A. What's the question?
9 Q. The question is: This -- this document -- so we start with the
10 7th of June conclusions at the -- of the seven municipalities. They then
11 demand from the 1st Krajina Corps to purge the 1 KK of the Muslims and
12 the Croats and then we can see this document here where the 1 KK are
13 saying that the issue was discussed at yesterday's ARK Crisis Staff
14 meeting and now they're saying that they have to make a decision about
15 the 67 officers -- are members in the army. So I'm saying that this was
16 followed up from this earlier conclusion it appears, does it not?
17 A. You keep expecting me to answer questions about something that I
18 do not know about and cannot know about. Let's say that these documents
19 are accurate, but somebody else wrote that, and you'd really have to ask
20 those people, those services that wrote this what their motive and
21 intentions were. I could not have known what people were writing about
22 from the command of the 1st Corps and who they were writing to. This was
23 absolutely not within my authority. And from this you draw the
24 conclusion seven municipalities. Whether somebody signed this, wrote
25 this, this is a series of questions that you are putting to me, and
1 you're asking me to give short and precise answers. That is absolutely
2 impossible. I want to talk about the things I know here, things that I
3 had at my disposal and that I remember. If you're asking me to give
4 answers about this I really cannot because I simply don't know about
6 Q. Okay. Mr. Pasic, I'll take you to -- to a document where it
7 appears that you were present at, and that is 65 ter 25344, please.
8 Now, Mr. Pasic, this is -- this is a document related to this
9 second inter-municipality talks held in Korcanica on the
10 14th of June, 1992. And we can see that you are listed at number 11.
11 You were shown a copy of this document in the Krajisnik trial and you
12 said that it was your handwriting and you didn't recall attending this
13 meeting. And that was at transcript page 17980. You said that you had
14 been to meetings between the municipalities and you said that earlier
15 today in your evidence, and in that document it states that most of the
16 7 June 1992 suggestions have been accepted which includes the purging of
17 the Muslims and Croats from the army and in relation to getting the
18 population down they were -- until the demands included in the
19 7th of June conclusions? So --
20 MR. ROBINSON: Could you tell us where you're reading from in
21 that document?
22 MS. SUTHERLAND: The first paragraph, "As far as the previous
23 meeting" --
24 JUDGE KWON: Do we have it?
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Sorry. If we can turn to the next page. My
2 Q. "As far as the previous meeting of the Autonomous Region of
3 Krajina Crisis Staff is concerned, we can conclude that most of our
4 suggestions have been accepted and became part of the official position
5 of the Crisis Staff at a meeting held on the 8th of June, 1992. We
6 demand a decisive and clear response to each conclusion made then and the
7 personal responsibility of those who were in charge of implementing each
9 So does this refresh your memory about those two issues?
10 A. Well, I find this question familiar because it was heard during
11 my previous testimony, and I have nothing to add to what I stated then.
12 I absolutely do not remember this meeting at Korcanica, and it's correct
13 what you showed me earlier on, that that is my name and surname and that
14 is my signature. However, I really do not recall these things, and I
15 think that this is a forgery. Somebody scanned my signature and then
16 attached it to this document. I have to highlight one particular matter
17 if you allow me to do so, of course. Very often some people at some
18 meetings -- well, what was addressed to the military command, the
19 1st Krajina Corps, and so on. Perhaps sometimes attempts were made to
20 create more seriousness because say the civilian authorities thought that
21 they were not doing things on time in order to create public law and
22 order. Now, whether something like that was written here and which is
23 wrong and which was not discussed at certain meetings. Well, I'm not
24 going to say that that is the case, but I'm not going to confirm or deny
25 this. I really don't know. Just like then I did not remember, and I
1 don't remember now either that I attended this kind of meeting at
2 Korcanica. I know that I was at Korcanica only once in my life. This is
3 on Mount Grmic which is a mountain. Perhaps I would have attended that
4 meeting, but I assume that in this period -- it says here the 14th of
5 July. That period was so difficult and shaky and the municipality of
6 Bosanski Novi that I had - how do I put this? - far greater problems in
7 resolving vital issues and I did not attend that meeting probably because
8 of that because subjectively I could not have been there not for any
9 other reasons. So I'm not trying to avoid your question or, rather,
10 answering your question, but I simply cannot confirm that I attended this
11 meeting because I remember no such thing and I do not remember these
12 positions that were addressed to the 1st Krajina Corps, at least it seems
13 to me that that is what it written here.
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I seek to tender that document from
15 the command of the 1 KK.
16 MR. ROBINSON: Objection, Mr. President. First of all, I assume
17 she's now speaking of a document we looked at --
18 JUDGE KWON: Let's find out what document she's tendering first.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: 05758, the one dated the 9th of June, 1992, the
20 one that --
21 JUDGE KWON: Not this one?
22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Oh, sorry, no. I want to tender both documents.
23 Yes, because this is -- this is a 65 ter number as well.
24 JUDGE KWON: Do you have any objection to the admission of this
25 document, Mr. Robinson?
1 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. I don't believe that the
2 witness -- he said he didn't know anything about it, doesn't recall
3 attending the meeting and it might be a forgery. So I think with that --
4 kind of answers --
5 JUDGE KWON: But the witness confirmed that this looked like his
6 sit. It may be -- it might have been scanned, but at first he admitted
7 his signature, didn't he?
8 MR. ROBINSON: Well, if that -- if that's the basis upon which
9 you think you have enough reliability to admit this then --
10 JUDGE KWON: Let me ask Mr. Pasic again.
11 Do you agree that the signature you saw was yours?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I said that. This is my
13 signature. But whether it was on this document then in this form, I
14 don't know. I'm not denying that this is my signature, but I'm not sure
15 that this is the meeting in question or that -- or that this -- this
16 signature of mine was put on this list of names.
17 JUDGE KWON: We'll admit this one.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6437, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE KWON: And can I hear your submission about 5758, if
20 Ms. Sutherland is tendering that document as well.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
23 MR. ROBINSON: Also if I would just remind Ms. Sutherland it's a
24 lot better to tender these documents at the time they're offered or the
25 time they're discussed. But going back to pages 55 and 56 of the
1 transcript, the witness said he didn't know anything about this, so
2 there's no basis to admit it.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, the reason why I didn't seek to
4 tender it when it was used was because I wanted to bring this document up
5 to show that it makes mention of the out-Crisis Staff meeting held on the
6 8th of June which is referred to in the 9th of June document that I
7 showed. And so that's why I didn't do it at the time.
8 JUDGE KWON: I'm not sure ...
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, we can see from this document
10 that's on the screen, the 14th of June document, where the cover page has
11 Mr. Pasic attending. He disputes that fact. It goes -- it's -- it's a
12 matter of weight.
13 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Although 5758 was dated as
14 9th of June --
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes.
16 JUDGE KWON: -- the meeting itself --
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: It refers to a meeting --
18 JUDGE KWON: -- was held on the 8th of June.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, and of course that meeting of the 8th of
20 June of the out-Crisis Staff is referred to in paragraph 1 of this
21 document that we have on the screen. 65 ter -- the one that you've just
22 admitted, 25344.
23 JUDGE KWON: Can you upload 5758 for a short moment, English as
24 well, yes. Thank you. Where does it say that this meeting was held on
25 the 8th?
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: It says one of the issues that was discussed at
2 yesterday's meeting of the ARK Crisis Staff, and the document is dated
3 the 9th of June. So it makes sense that it's a meeting held by the ARK
4 Crisis Staff on the 8th of June, which is the meeting that's referred to
5 in the 14th of June document.
6 JUDGE KWON: But this document itself was not referred to in --
7 in the inter-municipality agreement was it?
8 MS. SUTHERLAND: No. On the 7th of June the two things that I
9 drew Mr. Pasic's attention to: One was the moving out of the population,
10 that was demand number 6; and then the other one was demand number 4,
11 about purging Muslims and Croats from the army. That's on the 7th. It's
12 then discussed at the ARK Crisis Staff on the 8th. Then this document
13 is -- is on the 9th from the -- the -- the 1st Krajina Corps to the
14 Main Staff, and then there's a Main Staff exhibit which I'm not going to
15 bring up, an order signed by General Mladic on the 9th, and that's
16 Exhibit P05469 which states that the Muslim Croat nationality must be
17 sent on leave.
18 MR. TIEGER: Mr. President --
19 JUDGE KWON: Would you like to add anything, Mr. Tieger?
20 MR TIEGER: Just one broad point since the Court raised the
21 question. I -- I -- if I understood the Court's question correctly
22 whether or not this specific document was referenced in the other
23 document would seem to go to authentication, which is a matter not at
24 issue here.
25 JUDGE KWON: No. The witness said he didn't know anything about
1 this document.
2 MR TIEGER: No, no, but the -- the issue. That's why I raised
3 the authentication versus subject matter issue. The subject matter
4 however is very much at issue and therefore very much goes to credibility
5 and to impeachment which is one of the factors, of course, we've used
6 consistently for admission of such documents.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes. The Chamber is of the view that document may
9 be related to the credibility of this witness. On that basis, we'll
10 admit that as well.
11 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6438, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE KWON: Please continue.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: And just for the record I wasn't clear when I
14 was saying it goes to the weight of it. That was exactly what I meant
15 and I should have been clearer that I said when you're weighing up his
16 credibility, then -- but -- Your Honour, I think my time is -- is up, but
17 given the extraordinarily long answers that the witness has given to
18 nearly every question, there's one or topic that I wish to deal with and
19 I think I can do it in 15 or 20 minutes at most.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Please continue, Ms. Sutherland.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND:
22 Q. Mr. Pasic, you have referred earlier in your evidence today about
23 your -- you were involved in negotiations with the UN and other Muslim
24 representatives -- sorry, other representatives of all the Muslims in
25 Bosanski Novi about them moving out, and you talk in paragraph 59 about
1 meetings in Dvor, the UN -- the UNPROFOR base, meetings in Topusko,
2 meetings on the bridge of the River Una. And in paragraph 20 of your
3 statement you mention that representatives of the Muslim community asked
4 to leave peacefully from the area and that they wanted to leave of their
5 own free will, and you mentioned three people as being the most
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: I would ask that we go into private session
9 [Private session]
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND:
8 Q. Now, Mr. Pasic, Mr. Nemin Puric --
9 A. No, that's not the right name. Can I help you?
10 Q. I think you may -- are you going to say his name's Emin Puric?
11 A. Well, if you let me, I will tell you the name. May I?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. The people in question are of Muslim ethnicity, and they attended
14 the meetings. One of them is Emin Puric, the other is Amin Delic, then
15 there was Senad Brkic and Nedim Muftic, and some others whom I don't
16 remember now.
17 Q. Yes, you're correct. I've just been advised it's Emin Puric, not
18 Nemin Puric. Anyway, he -- he says when he's -- when he's asked about
19 you he said: Well, we knew each other very well. And this is at
20 transcript page 26993 to 26994. We worked together. I knew -- I know
21 his character. At the time he seemed to be a changed person. He talked
22 in a very authoritarian manner. And then down a few lines he says: I
23 remember that well. He said, referring to you, "No, they cannot stay
24 here." And you could sense that the whole atmosphere was that they
25 wanted us to go, to leave, which suited us as well, I must admit, because
1 if it had not been for that will it would have been difficult for us to
2 get organised and to leave that chaos behind.
3 And at page 26998 to 27000, when the Judge said: You used rather
4 strong words when you said that you all wanted to leave, could you tell
5 us because until now I see that people were -- houses were search. They
6 were taken to a school. They had to stay there for two days and were
7 allowed to return home. Could you perhaps first indicate briefly what
8 the kinds of events were that made you decide that the situation was too
9 bad to stay? And he answered: Well, you know what? When 10.000 people
10 believe that it is their lucky day, when they are leaving their homes and
11 everything, then I had to consider myself to be very -- I had to consider
12 myself to be lucky too to leave that hell.
13 At transcript page 27007 to 27009 the Presiding Judge asks him
14 again: When you had these meetings, as you said, two meetings on the
15 bridge, first of all, were you aware of any people staying at that
16 moment, if it was at that moment, in the Mlakve stadium? And he said,
17 Yes I knew that and I said something about that the first time I went to
18 Dvor, to the UNPROFOR staff. They said that they knew about the
19 existence of that, that they were monitoring and observing that location.
20 We knew about that the whole time. And if I may add, when we were
21 talking with these representatives, I mean with Mr. Pasic, we asked, I
22 did and the people that you see here, we said that we would not leave
23 unless the people from the stadium were released as well. We did not
24 want to leave unless all the people were released from the stadium as
25 well, and they said that they would be released.
1 And at 27009 to 27013, the Presiding Judge asks him to comment on
2 paramilitaries out of control being blamed for what happened, and he
3 says, When Mr. Jens asked that the authorities impose order and improve
4 the security situation and prevent those who were committing these
5 murders and so Mr. Drazic said that was not done by the regulars of the
6 Territorial Defence -- by the regulars or the Territorial Defence, as he
7 said, but this was done by groups who had -- who were no longer under
8 anyone's control. I said that this was not true and that this could very
9 easily be resolved if there was goodwill to do that. Then Mr. Jensen
10 said, "How could this be done?" I said: We could deal with this very
11 simply if we were to set up mixed or joint guards because at that time
12 you had different guard duties on the entrance to villages, junctions and
13 so on, but they were exclusively Serb people in those guards and I just
14 said, well, let's make mixed or joint guards and then they would receive
15 weapons and then each side could deal with their own people -- if she
16 could come up and this could be done very easily. However, Mr. Drazic
17 said that this could not be done, that this cannot be prevented. These
18 groups were out of control and it wasn't possible to do anything about
19 that, but I think that that wasn't true. The Crisis Staff knew who was
20 doing that. They knew everything by name. They knew about people being
21 taken away, people getting killed, and so forth. And then a few lines
22 down the Presiding Judge says: One more question about the negotiations
23 on the bridge. You asked permission to leave and I do understand that it
24 was more than fully supported that it was even required that you should
25 leave. Did you ever raise the issue of returning to your own places, the
1 places where you lived? Was that ever a subject discussed during these
2 negotiations? And he answered: You mean negotiations before we left in
3 the convoy? The Judge said: Yes, that's what I meant. He answered:
4 No. It was pointless to even mention this to them. It was a question
5 that had no sense at all at that point.
6 JUDGE KWON: I have to interrupt, Ms. Sutherland. You are
7 entering the fourth page of the transcript in one question. I'm not sure
8 how the witness can answer your question if your question is so lengthy.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I want to put these excerpts to him
10 and then to put a question to --
11 JUDGE KWON: I don't think that's an efficient way, but could you
12 break it down. Let's give it a try. Let's ask him a question now and
13 let's see whether he's able to answer the question.
14 MS. SUTHERLAND:
15 Q. Mr. Pasic, the excerpts that I've just read to you so far from --
16 from the -- the witness's testimony, that -- that's not of a person who
17 is wanting to leave his home where he's lived for generations, is it?
18 He's not leaving voluntarily. He's leaving because he's being forced to
19 leave by what the authorities have done or aren't doing.
20 A. Well, to such a long question I hope I'll be allowed to answer in
21 two or three questions.
22 I don't know what Emin Puric said here by way of testifying and
23 what made him change the faithful image of the situation at the time when
24 the negotiations were in progress. I know that you don't believe much
25 what I'm saying here, but I do recommend to look at a video-clip that
1 exists and listen to what Mr. Jensen said. I don't think he ever
2 testified here. He negotiated on the bridge. He also doubted that --
3 or, rather, he had his suspicions that people were leaving because of
4 threats. I'm not sure of his name, Jensen or Jens, but there is his
5 picture available. I can show it to you. And without my knowledge and
6 without the knowledge of the local authorities, he went to a Muslim
7 family and spoke to them clandestinely. We -- they tried to prevent a
8 set-up, because we might send them to some of our own Muslims, in
9 inverted commas, so he had the opportunity to talk to some Muslims and
10 see what the situation was really like and find out whether they were
11 leaving voluntarily or they were being driven out. Mr. Jensen did that
12 or, rather, his delegation, and I still don't know which families those
13 were and which people and when exactly it was. It was some time in June
14 or July when he had these conversations and that may have been the
15 decisive factor for the decision of the UNHCR in Topusko, and what
16 their -- what was the motivation of the Muslims to leave. It was a
17 decision they took of their own free will. It wasn't due to our attitude
18 or our desire to resolve the issue of Muslims in the Bosanski Novi
19 municipality in this manner.
20 There are video-clips where Mr. Puric insisted at that time that
21 they were leaving of their own free will. I don't know whether this
22 is -- this can be shown for the Trial Chamber. If it is in the interest
23 of justice, and I'm sure that you want to learn the truth, but these
24 facts are constantly misrepresented as someone's desire to drive out the
25 Muslims from the Bosanski Novi municipality. It certainly wasn't the
1 municipal authorities. Nobody was in the position to know about this
2 from the top echelons of the RS because all the communications lines were
3 down. Not even telex communication was possible. So the higher bodies
4 didn't know about the situation. So it was our own plight, and it was up
5 to our resourcefulness how we can overcome these local problems and
6 resolve them.
7 The Muslim population felt the need, in a way, to, conditionally
8 speaking, find a safe haven with the United Nations at Topusko and that
9 situation, my role and that of Mr. Drazic was a personal friend of
10 Mr. Puric, and I also know Puric and he confirmed that. We weren't on
11 bad terms and I have nothing against him personally. It was merely our
12 attitude to assist them, to do as they wanted at the time, and why
13 Mr. Puric said that or changed his mind due to pressures or whatever is
14 something that he can tell you.
15 This matter which to my mind is extremely important -- can you
16 hear me? I really want to say that these people that were involved in us
17 were saying very different things from what I have just been read out.
18 They wanted to reunite their families who were in third countries and our
19 region. They were guest workers who worked in Austria or Germany. They
20 thought that the war would soon be over and that everybody would be all
21 right. And that was the -- their opinion. So that it isn't true what
22 Mr. Puric stated in his evidence. He must have been under some certain
24 I never insisted that they go, but I spoke to Mr. Jensen and to
25 Mr. Jean-Claude Konkolato [phoen] I think that was his name, and this
1 gentleman also said some untruths when I spoke about Serbian refugees,
2 and I asked the UNHCR to help everybody irrespective of their ethnicity,
3 but he presented that as our wish, the wish of the municipal authorities
4 to put up Serbs in Muslim houses. And I can say that there has never
5 been such a thing. But it was our concern how Serbs who fled from
6 Croatia should be assisted by the UNHCR to return to their homes or that
7 their property status should be resolved somehow. Likewise we wanted to
8 assist the Muslims in doing what they wanted. And this was a crucial
9 issue. We may have been able to resolve all dilemmas if the --
10 Mr. Muhamedagic, the SDA leader, were alive. I'm very sorry that he
11 died. And he personally in talking to me, and I don't remember the exact
12 date, it was certainly after the start of combat operations, he told me
13 that for a number of reasons they had decided, perhaps due to a feeling
14 of military impotence, but they certainly decided to leave the area and
15 that this was their initiative. And therefore I see no reason why it
16 is -- why these persistent attempts to put the blame on the municipal
17 authorities of Bosanski Novi because you're trying to say that we wanted
18 to force them to --
19 JUDGE KWON: What Ms. Sutherland read out is not in our evidence,
20 so the question was whether he was leaving voluntarily, and your answer
21 was no; correct?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They left voluntarily, so the
23 answer is yes, they left of their own will.
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Let's continue, Ms. Sutherland. Do you have
25 more questions?
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
2 Q. Just -- just one follow-up, Mr. Pasic. You said that you never
3 insisted that they go, but one of the men called by the Court in the
4 Krajisnik case -- based on what you said he said that -- that you
5 insisted, and secondly that armed soldiers, and this is -- this is
6 Amin Delic now, I'll read what he said. He said: Armed soldiers started
7 going door-to-door forcing them to leave, and this is transcript page
8 26358. Judge Orie is then -- then the Presiding Judge says: Talking
9 about Mr. Pasic, during these negotiations did he show any awareness of
10 the reasons why you wished to leave or did you tell him during these
11 negotiations what urged you leave the territory of the municipality. And
12 Mr. Delic answered: Of course he was aware of it. He was the president
13 of that Crisis Staff of the Bosanski Novi municipality, and he managed
14 the whole thing. He supervised and controlled the situation in full.
15 Mr. Pasic certainly had the situation under his complete control and he
16 could have -- of course was aware of what was going on in town and what
17 was happening to the people. During these negotiations he said that we
18 had to leave and that we may not remain, and even -- and that even if we
19 did remain, because the UNHCR representatives were telling us to stay,
20 that they would bring us humanitarian aid --
21 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
22 Mr. Pasic, could you excuse yourself for a moment.
23 [The witness stands down]
24 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Sutherland, this witness is saying that the
25 Muslims or those Muslims left voluntarily. And you are confronting the
1 witnesses -- witness with some other witness's testimony from other case.
2 Am I correct in so understanding?
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes.
4 JUDGE KWON: How does it affect the credibility of the witness
5 when we -- such evidence is not in our proceedings?
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, it -- what these two witnesses, the
7 Court witnesses in the Krajisnik case --
8 JUDGE KWON: They are not our witnesses and that transcript is
9 not in evidence in our case.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: But it -- but it completely contradicts what he
11 is saying.
12 JUDGE KWON: How do we know which is correct?
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Mr. Tieger.
14 MR. TIEGER: Mr. President, I'm not -- I'm not sure that the
15 Court was following the chronology here entirely which certainly makes
16 this a different matter than impeachment by witness testimony. In this
17 case this witness testified before this institution before.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
19 MR. TIEGER: This witness, in order to vouch for his own
20 credibility said, Go talk to these people. They'll back me up. The
21 Court actually in a fairly rare and impressive moment followed up on
22 that, called those people and this is what they said.
23 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. His evidence in the previous case
24 was not admitted in our case.
25 MR. TIEGER: No. But I think he's -- I think he's acknowledged
1 that he gave evidence there and that he did -- I think he confirmed that
2 in fact he tried to vouch for his credibility before this institution in
3 another case by citing these particular individuals, and that in fact the
4 Court called his bluff and called those people and this is what they
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: And, Your Honour, he refers to -- to these
7 people in paragraph 20 of his statement before this Court in this case.
8 JUDGE KWON: That was the point I was asking. Paragraph 20.
9 Did you have something to tell us, Mr. Robinson?
10 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. I don't see anything wrong
11 with the Prosecution confronting a witness with what another person has
12 said about a relevant subject matter whether that was in testimony before
13 this Court, a prior statement, a letter, a video, whatever, and then they
14 have to take the witness's answer. What they're quoting is not evidence,
15 and if the witness says, No, it was never my understanding that there
16 was -- they didn't want to leave. That's the only evidence that you
17 have. What is being put to the witness is not evidence, only the
18 witness's answer. So I don't see that what Ms. Sutherland did was wrong
19 except that it -- when she has lengthy extracts like that it's better to
20 paraphrase and put the point to the witness instead of quoting
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE KWON: Points well taken. In particular, I thank
24 Mr. Robinson's statement with which I agree.
25 Shall we take a break? The witness can be informed of the break
1 by our Registry.
2 We'll take a break for 45 minutes and resume at 1.20.
3 --- Recess taken at 12.36 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 1.21 p.m.
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND:
8 Q. Mr. Pasic, just to finish off what Mr. Amin Delic was saying to
9 the Krajisnik Court, and this is at transcript page 26366. He said:
10 However, there was no question on our side whether we were going or not,
11 whether we had to run or not and there was no doubt on their side because
12 everything had been done so that we would have.
13 Mr. Pasic, what he's referring to, is he not, everything that had
14 been done so that we would have to leave, was all the documentation that
15 the witnesses -- that the Muslims had to fill out before they -- before
16 they could leave?
17 A. At the moment when UN representatives said they would be working
18 on that issue, due to some legal obligations we suggested that people who
19 wanted to leave the territory voluntary, who wanted to leave
20 Bosanski Novi and Novi Grad should make arrangements for their property,
21 a sale contract, an exchange of property, a donation, there were such
22 things. All that was done with a view to protecting our property in a
23 painless way. I told you already about those groups, the paramilitary
24 formations, people wanting to make a quick gain, and so on and so forth.
25 We wanted to protect property, for example, people could exchange their
1 property for property of a Serb in Croatia or they could sell their
2 property. Whatever was done, we thought that that kind of property would
3 be better protected from destruction or any kind of a misuse. There were
4 such things, of course. However, I would like to point out that some of
5 the people did not have such documents at all, but that was not an
6 obstacle for those who wanted to leave together with the people who had
7 those documents and obtained such documents. According to what I know,
8 there were such people of Muslim ethnicity who left at that time and did
9 not obtain any documents. So that was not a condition for somebody to be
10 able to leave voluntarily or to stay. So that was not a condition. It
11 was not something that would have prevented them from leaving. It was
12 simply not a condition for departure.
13 Q. Mr. Pasic, these -- these two witnesses, the excerpts of their
14 testimony that I've read out to you completely contradict your position,
15 don't they?
16 A. There is something in our judiciary system which is facing
17 somebody eye-to-eye. I would like to be faced with these people. I
18 would like us to look each other in the eye, and then we would know who's
19 telling the truth, who's not. I don't know what Mr. Delic and Mr. Puric,
20 what they said and why they changed their statement about the events in
21 1992. I adhere by my statement when I say that those people,
22 representatives of the Muslims, wanted to leave the area. Why they
23 changed their position in their testimony I can only assume, but I'm not
24 competent to be the judge of why they testified falsely when they
25 appeared before the Tribunal.
1 Q. Mr. Pasic, you say that we suggested that these people who wanted
2 to leave voluntarily. You could make arrangements and stuff, but why did
3 you then make them sign documents that they were moving on a permanent
5 A. They were not forced. They were not forced to sign any documents
6 at all. Under the laws that prevailed at that time, somebody could
7 change their place of residence either temporarily or permanently. It
8 was regulated by the law. Therefore, people who were moving out or going
9 somewhere temporarily are entitled to some entitlements and have some
10 obligations. On the other hand, people who are moving out permanently,
11 nobody can forbid them to return. Again, there are some obligations that
12 arise from that. If somebody changes their place of residence
13 temporarily under the prevalent law they stop being a military conscript.
14 They could not be considered deserters or somebody who failed to meet
15 their legal military obligation. So that was just one part of the legal
16 formulation if that's what you have in mind.
17 Whether somebody left temporarily or permanently they could still
18 change that position in a month, two months, or a year, and they could
19 still return to their original place of residence. All the paperwork,
20 all the decisions that were made by the local authorities were made to
21 make note of those who were leaving and how their property relations were
22 resolved and dealt with. That was the only thing that existed, how to
23 arrange things when some of the population was leaving the municipality.
24 That was the only intention of the local authorities, and that's why
25 those documents were produced and had to be obtained.
1 Q. Mr. Pasic, I want to just --
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Previous translation
3 continues] ... [overlapping speakers] transcript.
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that on line 4 the
6 witness said that they stopped being military conscripts if they changed
7 their place of residence permanently, whereas on line 4 it has been
8 recorded that that happened that if they changed their place of residence
9 temporarily. I don't know what the provisions of the law were. Maybe
10 the witness could clarify. I believe that I heard the witness say that
11 they -- when they changed their place of residence permanently they
12 stopped being military conscripts.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND:
14 Q. Is that right, Mr. Pasic? You said -- you said the word
15 "permanent" when you were referring to the change of residence when you
16 spoke a moment ago? Please don't repeat your whole answer. Can you just
17 say whether you agree what Mr. Karadzic just put to you.
18 A. Well, you asked me about those two categories, temporary and
19 permanent. I can explain the meanings of the two terms, but maybe that
20 will be too long. I can explain the meaning of the word "temporary" as
21 opposed to the word "permanent."
22 JUDGE KWON: No. We're talking about the transcript, whether it
23 precisely reflected your answer. So you can answer yes or no whether
24 Mr. Karadzic said is correct or not.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood Mr. Karadzic
1 perfectly, and I believe that what he said is absolutely correct. There
2 is a difference between temporary residence and permanent residence. I
3 don't know how the interpreters are going to interpret that, but my
4 understanding of Mr. Karadzic's question is absolutely perfect.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I be of assistance? When it
6 comes to people being military conscripts, will they lose their status
7 as --
8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, that's a subject matter you can take
9 up in your re-examination.
10 Please continue.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Mr. President. Can I have 65 ter
12 number 08812.
13 Q. Mr. Pasic, this is -- I want to -- you to have a look at this
14 document. It's dated the 9th of July, 1992, and it's a document that
15 Midho Alic had to sign in order to -- to move out. Is that the
16 documentation that you were talking about a moment ago?
17 A. It's not very legible. Can this be zoomed in or perhaps you have
18 a hard copy of the original for my perusal. Is there a hard copy? This
19 is not legible. The copy's not legible, the one that I have on the
20 clean. Do you have a hard copy?
21 JUDGE KWON: We can collapse the English and magnify the B/C/S
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here I can --
24 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Show him the bottom part as well.
25 Yes. Let us know when you're done with your reading.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm reading. I am not
2 familiar with the text of the statement. I don't know whether that was
3 the wording. I can see that there is a stamp. It's not legible, but I
4 believe that it is credible. It is possible that there was such a
5 wording of this statement but I repeat the term "temporary" as opposed to
6 "temporary" [as interpreted] is treated completely different in our
7 parts. However, I believe that this was to emphasise some other
8 obligations that I have already mentioned. The category permanent may
9 apply to some exceptions.
10 I suppose that you have one thing in mind when you're showing me
11 this. At that moment, this term could not have permanently prohibited
12 anybody's return if they wanted to return. So this term "temporary" as
13 opposed to "permanent" has a meaning only in terms of rights and
14 obligations. It didn't have a political connotation meaning that
15 somebody would be prohibited from returning to their home for political,
16 religious, or other reason. That was never the intention. So this
17 wording -- let's avoid any confusion. I'm just trying to confuse -- I'm
18 trying to explain the meaning of the term "temporary" as opposed to the
19 term "permanent" and why the wording was as I -- we can see it here. I
20 believe that this statement is really correct and that it came from this
21 administration in the municipality. I was physically unable to draft any
22 texts or have them signed by people. There were services who did that.
23 And somebody really used this formulation, this wording. I don't know
24 why. It was not in the senses as you are trying to put it to me. It's
25 not to mean that people would be forbidden from going back home for
1 religious or some other reasons. It was for the reasons that I
2 previously explained and those were, for example, legal or military
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I seek to tender that document.
5 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND:
8 Q. Mr. Pasic --
9 JUDGE KWON: We'll receive it.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: The -- the Trial Chamber --
11 JUDGE KWON: Give us a moment to assign a number.
12 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6439, Your Honours. Thank you.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND:
14 Q. The Trial Chamber has heard evidence that the Muslims had to sign
15 these documents that they were leaving in order -- to say that they were
16 leaving voluntary, that they had to swear they were leaving permanently
17 and that they could never go back to their homes, and I refer Your
18 Honours to KDZ011 and that's Exhibit P03880. And, Mr. Pasic, I have no
19 further questions.
20 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me. Was that a closing argument? I
21 thought we were doing the cross-examination.
22 MS. SUTHERLAND: No. Mr. Pasic -- if he -- if he would like, he
23 said earlier that the witness's -- that the Muslims were leaving
24 voluntarily. I was putting to him that the Trial Chamber has evidence
25 before it that the witnesses, before they were allowed to leave, had to
1 sign that they were leaving voluntarily when, in fact, they had to say
2 that they were -- they were leaving voluntarily and they were permanently
3 leaving and signing over all their property.
4 Q. Now, do you agree with -- that's the -- that's the evidence
5 that's before this Trial Chamber, and you dispute that, do you?
6 A. I dispute that, of course. I've already said that this statement
7 was not a condition for somebody leaving or staying. I repeat, according
8 to some other information, some of the people left without having signed
9 this statement. That was -- this is not an argument for somebody's
10 forcible departure or somebody's voluntary departure. There was no
11 pressures put to bear by this type of document. Nobody had to state that
12 they were leaving forever because they were forced to leave. This is
13 simply not correct. This is a statement. This is not a contract. This
14 is not a decision. This is not an order. This is a statement, a
15 declaration made by a person who signed this before a body. It does not
16 have a legal force, the force of a legal document, in the sense that
17 based on this document that person would be forbidden to ever come back.
18 I repeat, the categories of permanent and voluntarily departure, whatever
19 you think of it, I'm saying that this is just one of the possible ways in
20 which the local municipal authorities tried to set up some sort of
21 records of those people who were staying and those people who wanted to
22 leave the area, and that was the meaning of the statements. It provided
23 us with a better insight into the people who decided to stay. It was
24 wartime when you could not follow the movement of people and the
25 situation as it was. There should have been paper trail of some people
1 leaving, moving out in all sorts of ways. I have to point out that a lot
2 of persons, a lot of individuals who had friends among Serbs crossed the
3 border individually, and that's how they left. This is -- this was our
4 message, a lesson that we learned. We thought that there should be a
5 trace of those people who had left in one way or another. That's why we
6 came up with these declarations or statements, because we wanted to know
7 how those people left.
8 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is speaking too fast.
9 JUDGE KWON: Mr. -- Mr. Pasic, the interpreters were not able to
10 catch up with your speed. Probably -- but I think we have heard
11 sufficiently. If necessary, Mr. Karadzic will take up further.
12 Do you have any re-examination, Mr. Karadzic?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Excellency. I did not realise
14 that Ms. Sutherland had finished her cross-examination.
15 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
16 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Pasic, while the document is on the screen,
17 could you please read the first sentence under the name.
18 A. It says here --
19 Q. Where it says the -- the signatory, the person who took the
21 A. This -- can this being zoomed in, please?
22 Q. Can you read the first sentence in the preamble.
23 A. The last word?
24 Q. The first sentence.
25 A. The first sentence where?
1 Q. Before -- under the name Alic.
2 A. That name is not on the screen, and that sentence is not on the
4 Q. Can I then read it? "The person concerned is appearing ..." can
5 you see that?
6 A. Yes, I can.
7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpret's note that we don't have the
8 English translation on the screen.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. What does it mean when the person was not invited?
11 A. Well, it means that a person came without having been summoned.
12 They came of their own will. That's the interpretation of that word, the
13 translation of that word.
14 Q. Both of us have to speak slowly. We have to make breaks. It
15 hasn't been recorded properly.
16 After the name it says, "An uninvited person is appearing before
17 the authority of his own free will."
18 Now we can see it. In the English translation it is somewhat
19 different. It says "of his own free will." I believe that it should be
20 "uninvited" or perhaps something else would be better.
21 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, please continue.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Can you tell us when people change their place of permanent
25 residence, what changes? Does one's status as a military conscript
1 change and other things?
2 A. Of course. Persons who leave the territory for various reasons,
3 on that occasion each and every citizen, and I hope this is the case in
4 some other countries, too, they are supposed to meet certain obligations
5 or exercise certain rights. They are supposed to meet some of the
6 obligations that they had previously in order to be able to leave that
7 place of residence.
8 Q. Thank you. Just slow down, please. And what about temporary
9 residence? Does one still have the same obligations?
10 A. Well, look, as far as temporary residence is concerned, temporary
11 departures, that was usually considered to be for a very short period of
12 time. So this is a terminological obligation on the basis of the law.
13 Somebody may be away for 5, 10, 15, or 20 days, or a bit longer than that
14 but then they would return shortly. In that situation, such a person was
15 not duty-bound to meet these obligations, if you will, because it was
16 believed that that person would come back and meet all these obligations
17 upon their return. That would be the difference.
18 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Could you tell us whether the
19 municipality is responsible for any damage done to immovable property or
20 destruction of property? Would citizens sue the municipality if
21 something happened to their property? Please keep it as short as
22 possible. Did they have the right to sue, and would they sue if
23 something happened to their immovable property?
24 A. That's happening right now. The motto is "war damages."
25 Citizens of Republika Srpska, Bosnia-Herzegovina have the right to
1 compensation if their property had been damaged.
2 Q. Thank you. If a person states that they do not have immovable
3 property, can they then sue the municipality?
4 A. Well, it would be logical that persons cannot ask for something
5 if that something does not exist in the first place. So in a way this
6 leaves a trace, how people are leaving their property and on what
7 conditions and so on.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we take a look at P2918
10 briefly, please. Could we have the English version, too, please, because
11 it's more legible.
12 Please, Mr. Pasic --
13 JUDGE KWON: I take it Ms. Sutherland has a hard copy of this.
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes. We do have the hard copy of the
15 original [microphone not activated]
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Ms. Sutherland, please.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Could we have page 2 in English, because I'm not sure that this
19 is identical, the two documents, I mean.
20 I'm going to read this out in English, and can you explain this
21 to us and it will be interpreted to you:
22 [In English] "Departures through Croatia and Slovenia, organised
23 by UNPROFOR, was attempted before without success. The passage towards
24 Banja Luka remains free."
25 [Interpretation] Was there this possibility for them to go to
1 Banja Luka, and did they accept that or refuse that?
2 A. I think that in the statement provided in writing I explained
3 that, but I shall repeat. In talks with representatives of the Muslim
4 people, there were such things that were being mentioned, namely due to
5 certain reasons, their reasons, not to go into all of that now, they
6 would mention places where it was not that dangerous in terms of
7 potential danger or real danger, and, for example, in area of Banja Luka,
8 that is somewhere in the interior, and then --
9 Q. Please do slow down. The transcript needs to keep up.
10 A. I shall repeat.
11 Q. Try to keep it short. You don't need so many words.
12 A. Specifically, there were many talks and offers were made to the
13 representatives of the Muslim people to withdraw into the interior of
14 Republika Srpska where it was calmer, or if they wished, they could go to
15 an area that was under the control of the Bosnian Muslims, that is to say
16 in the direction of Central Bosnia. In principle, they did not accept
17 that, or if they did accept it, they did so unwillingly, but their
18 exclusive goal was to go to the European Union, European countries, for
19 several reasons, and I can mention all of them.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D27009, could we please have that.
22 JUDGE KWON: Before we move out from this document, Mr. Pasic, in
23 answer to the question of Ms. Sutherland related to this document, you
24 said at one point in time the Crisis Staff didn't need this kind of a
25 policy - I don't remember exact word - because Muslims initiated their
1 departure voluntarily. Do you remember having said so?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Roughly. I understand the
3 content, the point of your question. I think I do.
4 JUDGE KWON: Could you read out the last sentence of this
5 document aloud.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And which document is this?
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. You have the Serbian version on the left-hand side, on your
10 A. I think that it can be read more easily here. I have it here:
11 "If these proposals are rejected, the Crisis Staff will no
12 longer be able to guarantee the security of Muslims in this area."
13 Is that what you mean?
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes. To many people it must have sounded like a
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I respond?
17 JUDGE KWON: Well, yes. That's the question for you.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the way it was: Very often
19 the Crisis Staff was asked to do something that was virtually impossible
20 and something that they were not even charge of. Very often the
21 Crisis Staff had to disassociate itself from certain things in this way.
22 Very often we were asked to provide guarantees that in a certain area,
23 certain location part of the population will live safely and that no one
24 would maltreat them for any reason or attack them or whatever. So in
25 that context, since that is what we were being asked for and that was not
1 within the realm of the possible for us, and sometimes also in writing we
2 wanted to make it known that we quite simply could not provide such
3 guarantees to anyone. This guarantee could not exist, absolutely, not
4 for the Serb population, not for the Muslim population. So the
5 Crisis Staff did not have that power, did not have the jurisdiction, did
6 not have the strength to guarantee anyone's security. That is why it was
7 written so harshly perhaps, this sentence, but in no way, in no
8 context -- I mean, if somebody thinks that it's written in a two-sided
9 way, it's not that somebody is being told to leave the area. We just
10 wanted -- well, unfortunately there was this picture that was not a happy
11 one for anyone, but the wish was to present in very picturesque terms the
12 situation that we all found ourselves in in that area. Perhaps that is
13 the point of these texts that were written in this way.
14 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Mr. Pasic, can you remind us of where after these unsuccessful
17 transports through Croatia, Slovenia, these citizens were, these citizens
18 for whom the Crisis Staff cannot provide guarantees? Where were they and
19 under what conditions?
20 A. You mean before they left?
21 Q. At the moment when they returned from these unsuccessful attempts
22 a few days before that, when this information is being written where were
23 they? Where were they put up? Were they at home or where were they?
24 A. Thank you for asking. If I can put it this way, there was an
25 unsuccessful attempt. Please don't misinterpret this. This was for
1 technical reasons. That was ten days before this departure. There was
2 this column had been established when the non-Serb population took their
3 own cars, buses, trucks, as organised by UNPROFOR, the High Commissioner
4 for Refugees, they tried to go to Kostunica, Dubica, so that they could
5 cross into Croatia at the point in Jasenovica. For technical reasons
6 this failed, please let us not misinterpret this. The Croatian
7 authorities did not allow that to happen. That took seven or eight hours
8 in the afternoon. So these people who had all packed their things and
9 wanted to leave, sometimes around -- at some point around midnight they
10 returned home, and they were all at home until they went again to these
11 third countries. So they were at their own homes. So during that period
12 of time to the best of our ability we, the organs of authority, protected
13 them. They were at their homes, and again after about ten days they left
14 their homes. I think it was the 22nd or 23rd of July, and they went in
15 the direction of Karlovac or, rather, Croatia, and that's where they
16 crossed the border.
17 Q. Thank you. So they stayed for a month and a half after that
18 first attempt?
19 A. No, a bit less. I think it was a bit less than that.
20 Q. Thank you. Please pause, and please utter the smallest number of
21 words possible as slowly as possible.
22 What was your position, the position of the authorities, towards
23 people being moved out and using illegal means, unlawful means, as far as
24 movement was concerned?
25 A. If you're referring to the local government, we have things that
1 have been left in writing. It is explicitly stated that all forms of
2 force, threat, or anything like that was strictly prohibited.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D27009, could we have that now,
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Excuse me, Your Honour. That's -- in fact a
7 different version of that is Exhibit D01916 already in evidence.
8 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Can you tell us what this document is? I beg your pardon. The
11 previous document, does it say in that better version whether somebody
12 signed that on behalf of Radomir Pasic, because in the version that we
13 had we could not see that and you can see that it is somebody signing
14 for, et cetera.
15 A. I cannot see the signature here. It is very illegible.
16 Q. All right. Thank you.
17 A. I really cannot see the signature.
18 Q. Thank you. Could you please focus on the screen now and could
19 you tell us about these conclusions that were reached by the
20 municipality? It is the municipality and not the Crisis Staff. Can you
21 tell us what this is?
22 A. I cannot see the preamble up there so I cannot say whether it's
23 the Crisis Staff or the municipality. However, it does seem to me, well,
24 I cannot say with certainty, that the Municipal Assembly was in session
25 during this period of time, and they were analysing the conclusions of
1 the Crisis Staff.
2 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Please remove the English version and
3 zoom in, and can you confirm whether this is a session of the
4 Municipal Assembly that is being held on the 16th of June? Please look
5 at the preamble.
6 A. Yes. It says up there the Assembly of Bosanski Novi, held on the
7 16th of June, 1992.
8 Q. Thank you. Paragraph 2, the second and third bullet points.
9 A. You want me to read that?
10 Q. Yes. The second and third bullet points.
11 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I do it now?
13 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Can we zoom out for the moment.
14 I'm not sure whether the document you referred to is the exactly
15 identical one.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: [Microphone not activated] No, Your Honour, I
17 said --
18 JUDGE KWON: 1916.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: I said a different version of it is D01916.
20 JUDGE KWON: Should we try it? Which seems to be more legible?
21 Exhibit D1916. I think we can see your signature.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But I'm going to ask for the other
23 one to be admitted too because it was published will the Official Gazette
24 of Bosanski Brod.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Bosanski Novi.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Oh, yes, Bosanski Novi.
2 JUDGE KWON: No problem, but for the sake of reading, shall we
3 deal with this, if the content is identical, of course.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I think it is.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. So paragraph 2, and the second and third bullet points.
7 A. Yes, but I would just like to ask for it to be enlarged. It was
8 better the last time. May I read now. So I'm reading paragraph 2,
9 bullet point 1:
10 "The citizens of Muslim ethnicity --"
11 JUDGE KWON: We have it here in English as well. You read it
12 yourself, and then let us know when you are done reading. Then
13 Mr. Karadzic will ask you a question.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I see it.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. All right. Fine. Could you tell us, please, this bullet point
17 is saying that any activities directed at forceful expulsion is strictly
18 banned, and that persons in the reception centre be treated humanely.
19 Was that the policy of the municipal authorities?
20 A. Yes. If you need an explanation, I can add one. The policy of
21 the municipal authorities in -- at no point in time used any pressure or
22 force to get rid of the Muslim population. Instead, they tried to
23 preserve law and order and prohibit any use of force.
24 Q. Can you explain to the Trial Chamber what you meant by item 4?
25 A. Yes. The Municipal Staff is here -- just if you could blow it up
1 a bit. I believe that it says it's activities --
2 Q. No, no, no. I mean paragraph 4.
3 A. Oh, yes. The Bosanski Novi public security station, but I can't
4 read the rest.
5 Q. And military police command.
6 A. But can you put it back. The Bosanski Novi public security
7 station and the military police command have been instructed to establish
8 public law and order in Bosanski Novi under security of its inhabitants.
9 According to me this is a logical position. We demand that the
10 responsible services and institutions, of course within their power,
11 exercise control of public law and order.
12 Q. All right. All right. The translation reads have been
13 instructed, whereas the original can be interpreted as have been ordered.
14 A. Yes, but you know, this is -- this all has a different dimension
15 in this administrative document. It is all intertwined here. And then
16 of course there's a question whether the one who's instructing is really
17 competent to do so.
18 Q. But at any rate, an instruction on order is issued.
19 A. But the Crisis Staff could not issue orders to the military
20 police. However, the word used was often selected. It was often phrased
21 that way to add more emphasise, although the recipient body was in a
22 different line of hierarchy and reported to someone else.
23 Q. You said that you were present at many meetings of a regional
24 character. Were you a member of the Crisis Staff of the RK Krajina, and
25 did you attend its sessions?
1 A. As far as I know, I was, but I didn't attend all sessions for
2 purely technical reasons. At the time, it was sometimes even impossible
3 to physically go to Banja Luka, and that's where the meetings took place.
4 Q. Thank you. And please try to be as brief as possible. Who did
5 you represent at those meetings, and whose positions and decisions did
6 you put forward? Did you represent --
7 A. My positions, if there were any, were only on behalf of the
8 Bosanski Novi municipality, and I must point out publicly, Mr. President,
9 that unfortunately for technical reasons there was no communication with
10 higher authorities so that I was angry at you sometimes maybe without
11 justification, but there was very little subordination between the local
12 level and the republican level.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Could all unnecessary microphones please be
15 switched off.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Did your municipality ever take a decision to reduce the number
18 of Muslims and Croats in the municipality to the extent required for the
19 Serbian authorities to function?
20 A. No, never.
21 Q. Thank you. Did you learn, see or hear that any other body in the
22 RS took such a position?
23 A. I was unaware of that at the time.
24 Q. Thank you. And had you heard what President Tudjman was saying
25 about the acceptable percentage of Serbs in Croatia?
1 A. That was the period before the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
2 Unfortunately, many statements were made that could be called
3 warmongering statements that threatened the Serbian population. And when
4 I said that from Croatia between 6- and 7.000 refugees of Serbian
5 ethnicity had come from Croatia to my municipality, I believe that's very
7 Q. Thank you.
8 JUDGE KWON: For planning purposes, the Chamber wants to know how
9 much longer would you need?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Probably until the end of this
11 session, your Excellency, possibly less. Maybe 20 minutes will do.
12 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber will rise for five minutes.
13 --- Break taken at 2.11 p.m.
14 --- On resuming at 2.18 p.m.
15 JUDGE KWON: For the remainder of this session, we'll be sitting
16 pursuant to Rule 15 bis with Judge Morrison being away due to his urgent
17 personal matters.
18 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. You said that you attended some meetings of the regional or
22 provincial level. Were those -- or, rather, did those meetings include
23 the time, place, and the participants, more or less?
24 A. Yes, more or less. Mostly they did. However, that was not
25 regulated in any way. So if we speak about regional meetings, they
1 mostly took place in Banja Luka. Some deputies assembled there.
2 Actually, I think it depended on your position, if you were the president
3 of the municipality or the Executive Council or -- and so on. It's
4 mostly those people who went.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see P2641.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. While we're waiting, in Vukelic's text and in the document with
8 the annexed signatures, it says that it took place on the 8th of June.
9 Can you tell us if this is the same meeting dated the 7th of June here?
10 Is this sheet of paper satisfactory with regard to the formal elements?
11 What shall it contain? What shall it include?
12 A. This format is unknown to me I can say, because the lawyers there
13 had a certain practice. There would be a heading, including the date and
14 certain preamble and only then would conclusions follow. So I'm not sure
15 that this is authentic based on the format, although I have nothing
16 specific that I can -- no specific arguments to doubt it.
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, can I interrupt? I think
18 Mr. Karadzic may be confusing the witness. He's -- he refers to P2641,
19 which is the conclusions of Sanski Most on the 7th of June and then
20 refers to Vukelic's text, which is the 9th of June, and the document with
21 the annexed signatures which as we know is the 14th of June and says that
22 it took place on the 8th of June here.
23 What took place on the 8th of June was the ARK Crisis Staff
24 meeting, so I'm not sure --
25 JUDGE KWON: Not this one.
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: No. And of course then on -- page 95, line 8 it
2 says the 17th of June. I think that's supposed to read the 7th of June.
3 But they're all different meetings.
4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. I merely wanted us to establish whether this alleged meeting of
8 the 7th of June was the one where they passed -- because you were first
9 shown this one dated the 7th, then the one of the 9th, and finally the
10 one dated the 8th. Were you at two meetings, one of which was at
11 Sanski Most and the other in Banja Luka?
12 A. Well, all these dates, you know --
13 JUDGE KWON: Please put a pause. And now could you repeat your
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I'm sorry. Mr. Karadzic is again
16 confusing the record. I didn't show him the ARK Crisis Staff meeting of
17 the 8th. I showed him Mr. Vukelic's report which referred in that to the
18 ARK Crisis Staff meeting the day before, which was the 8th.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I?
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Go ahead.
23 A. I wanted to say that all the dates starting with the 1st of June
24 and until the 15th or 16th of June were very difficult days for
25 Bosanski Novi municipality. During that period of time, it was
1 impossible to move around safely. I don't think that I attended all
2 those meetings on the 7th, the 8th, or the 6th, or the 14th -- or,
3 rather, the 7th of June or 14th of June as is claimed. I can't say with
4 any degree of liability that I was there. I don't think I was for
5 technical reasons. I perhaps would have attended if I had been able to
6 move around. I don't know what the outcome of that would have been.
7 However, for technical reasons I couldn't attend those meetings because
8 the situation in Bosanski Novi municipality was difficult, and it was
9 either impossible or barely possible to move around. That was the
10 reason --
11 Q. Thank you. Now can we look at 65 ter 6737. I believe that the
12 document now has a new number. It is probably 2640. Today it was called
13 up on page 33. Can we see only the Serbian version, and can that version
14 be blown up as much as possible. And can it be scrolled up so as to
15 enable us to see Novi Grad.
16 Could you please read aloud the first sentence under
17 "Bosanski Novi."
18 A. I shall try, although it's not very legible. It says:
19 "In the territory of Bosanski Novi there was an armed conflict
20 between the Green Berets and members of the TO and the police."
21 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us whether there were Muslim
22 paramilitary formations and what were their names? What kind of
23 paramilitaries existed?
24 A. Of course they existed. The entire story about the disarming of
25 paramilitary formations testifies to that. However I have to point out
1 that very soon those military -- paramilitaries mutated or, rather, they
2 changed into be civilian clothes. They were most commonly referred to as
3 the Green Berets. They had some other nicknames but that was a common
4 term that they were known as. That's what they styled themselves.
5 Q. Thank you. Only page 33 there was an exchange of information and
6 opinions between you and Ms. Sutherland about the presence of heavy
7 calibre weapons. Would you say that the 20-millimetre cannon is a heavy
8 calibre weapon?
9 A. In the former JNA I was a foot soldier. I was a private and I
10 would not provide any professional opinions. However, as a layperson, I
11 would say that this should be a small-calibre weapon. I have
12 reservations about that. I'm not claiming. However, I am following my
13 own logic when I say that it is a small calibre weapon. There were
14 mortars. I believe that there were 60- and 80-millimetre mortars and
15 that in the then establishment of the former JNA this was all considered
16 light artillery or infantry weaponry. I don't know exactly what those
17 things were called but I'm not an expert. I will admit that.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And now can we see P3842.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. The clash that involved the Green Berets, would you say that the
22 Green Berets were at the same time peasants?
23 A. In formal terms, they shouldn't be. I repeat, those formations
24 according to some information that we had, when they realised they were
25 not a good match to the TO staff in military terms, very soon based on
1 their estimate they hid their uniforms and their weapons. They didn't
2 want to hand those over, and within a very short period of time -- there
3 was a short period of time when they wore military uniforms according to
4 my subjective estimate, but when they realised that they could not be
5 seen as a fair match to the TO, they turned into peasants very quickly,
6 and then you would be right, that peasants also were members of that
8 Q. Thank you. Can we see the second page of that document. You
9 told us here during the cross-examination that you offered members of the
10 UNHCR to go there yourself and to talk with the representatives of the
11 Muslims. Many witness statements were quoted to you or -- and
12 testimonies in the Krajisnik testimony. And the witnesses were
13 recommended by you. The statements as they were represented to you, are
14 they truthful?
15 A. For the most part they are not truthful. All those statements by
16 the witnesses and certain employees of UNPROFOR and the committee on
17 refugees are quite imprecise I would say. It is my feeling that they all
18 tried to attempt telling the truth.
19 Q. Thank you. Can we now see the following page?
20 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness and the accused be reminded
21 to make pauses between answer and answers and speak slowly.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. You said that you offered them to go there on their own and that
24 they did that. Please, were you there on behalf of Bosanski Novi? Did
25 you attend a meeting in Dvor on the 11th of July? It says in the first
1 paragraph: Both sides tried to -- please look at the left-hand side of
2 the screen.
3 A. Can that page be zoomed in a little?
4 Q. Did you attend that meeting? Do you know that your
5 representative was there?
6 A. I don't know whether it was on the 11th July. I don't know that
7 for a fact. However, I know that there was a meeting in Dvor at the
8 UNPROFOR base. There were meetings there. In the course of one day we
9 sometimes had even two or three short meetings whenever we reached
10 important -- we received important information. Those meetings were not
11 called in advance. There was no agenda or anything like in peacetime.
12 Some of those meetings were called within the space of a couple of
13 minutes. We would just get together and discuss certain issues and
14 problems. It is possible that I attended that meeting on the 11th.
15 However, I am not sure, I can't say that that was on that day. But I did
16 attend certain meetings in the UNPROFOR base together with the
17 representatives of the commission for refugees from Toposko,
18 representatives of the Muslim people, and myself or somebody else. But
19 in principle I never went alone. There was always somebody with me.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness and the accused please be
21 reminded to slow down.
22 JUDGE KWON: It's impossible to follow at this speed.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Speak slowly and utter as few words as possible. Could you
25 please read aloud bullet point 3.
1 A. Could it be zoomed in a little.
2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter doesn't have the English
3 original before her.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the meeting UNHCR crossed the
5 border and went to Bosanski Novi in order to meet with the
6 representatives of the Muslim population which wanted to leave their
7 homes and were getting ready to leave. Despite all explanations, they
8 adhere to their original position that there was no other possibility for
9 them but to leave Bosnia Krajina and go to Croatia, Slovenia, and
10 Western Europe.
11 Q. Thank you. Does this tally with all you know? Was that the
12 moment when you offered them to go and talk to the Muslim representatives
13 themselves without you?
14 A. I don't know whether that was the moment or not, but there was a
15 moment or the moment, in any case, when I said to Mr. Jensen or Mr. Jens
16 that he should do that, because he always showed a degree of suspicion
17 about my intentions. So I tried to be as honest as possible and as
18 objective as possible, but I still noticed that they did not trust me,
19 that they did not believe my words, and then I insisted, and I asked them
20 to go there without me. That's when I had realised that they didn't
21 believe me. I didn't want to coerce them into doing anything. I just
22 wanted them to go there and to try and find some of the representatives
23 of the Muslims and talk to them in a very objective way, in an unbiased
24 way. I wanted them to get a true insight into the whole story. I wanted
25 them to get to the bottom of the story and to see whether it was the Serb
1 authorities that they -- if they wanted to throw them out or whether
2 there was a free will of the Muslims to leave. That's why I asked
3 Mr. Jensen to do what I asked him to do.
4 Q. Now, please, did you -- I want to clarify some of the
5 terminology. Did you say or did you imply that they were leaving gladly
6 or that they were leaving of their own free will? Were they rejoicing in
7 the fact that they were leaving or were they sad but still leaving of
8 their own will? It seems to me that it was unnatural for somebody to
9 rejoice and you then said it was an ironic approach. Were they happy?
10 Do you make a distinction between one's own free will and leaving
12 A. I do make a distinction. I don't know how the interpreters are
13 going to interpret that.
14 JUDGE KWON: It's impossible. Put a pause after Mr. Karadzic
15 asks a question, please wait until the interpretation of the question is
16 interpreted -- is concluded.
17 Now could you answer the question.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will repeat. I do
19 make a distinction between happiness and something that is done of one's
20 own freewill. I believe that the degree of euphoria or happiness did not
21 exist on the side of the Muslim population. However, I still claim that
22 there was their own free will to leave the area either temporarily or
23 permanently. This is something that we could discuss. However, they
24 wanted to leave of their own free will. At that moment it was in their
25 best interest. I already told you what their motives to leave
1 Bosanski Novi were, but they did it of their own free will.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].
3 Q. Thank you. On page 15, I believe that you were -- you were shown
4 P20418 and I would like to recall that document. Could you please tell
5 us which armed forces existed in the municipality and which of them were
6 legal or legitimate?
7 A. May I start answering?
8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Sorry, what it's exhibit number?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On page 13, line 23, it says
10 P20418. Maybe the first digit, the first number 2 is surplus. It says
11 P20418, and there's another document 0218 too.
12 The first document should have been a document issued by the ARK
13 on the 4th of May.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. While we're waiting, Mr. Pasic, you mentioned earlier today that
16 you wanted the Muslims to get involved in the Territorial Defence. Was
17 the Territorial Defence a legitimate and legal military formation?
18 A. Yes. Under the Law of the former Socialist Federative Republic
19 of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the former state of Yugoslavia, the
20 Territorial Defence was a legal and legitimate formation and all
21 representatives of all the peoples from the area were its members and the
22 second question, if I may answer that immediately --
23 Q. Yes. Yes.
24 A. Yes. There was a -- I must say a strong desire, on my part at
25 least it did, for the representatives of the Muslim people to become
1 members of legal institutions such always the TO staff, the civilian
2 police, i.e., the SJB, because I personally as a human being believe that
3 if they joined those bodies, if there were Muslims in those bodies that
4 their need for paramilitary formations would diminish and that civilians,
5 regular people, both Muslims and Serbs, would have a security and a
6 guarantee that they would trust bodies with mixed compositions, with
7 membership of Muslims and Serbs.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] and now I would like to call up --
9 THE INTERPRETER: And would Mr. Karadzic repeat the number.
10 JUDGE KWON: Would you repeat the number.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D9290.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. On the following page we will see something that has not been
14 translated. Oh, it has been translated. You mentioned joint
15 appearances -- can we go back to page 1. You can see the page where it
16 says joint interest. Can we go back to the first page in the Serbian
17 language, please. You spoke about joint activities involving you and
18 Mr. Izet Muhamedagic. Do you remember these negotiations, and do you
19 remember this press conference and the appeal that was sent from that
20 conference to the citizens in your municipality?
21 A. I'm looking at this text. I'm trying to read it. I'm familiar
22 with the protagonists. These names ring a bell. There were similar
23 statements appealing to the citizens for peace and joint interest, and
24 there were really a lot of them. My role as the president of the
25 Municipal Assembly, i.e., my desire was indeed considerable.
1 Irrespective of the conflicts that had happened before that in Croatia,
2 Slovenia, and then in Bosnia and Herzegovina we wanted us to create an
3 oasis of peace in Bosanski Novi as we called it. Unfortunately, these
4 cries and appeals were futile for the reasons that I've been mentioning
5 throughout my testimony today.
6 Q. Am I right in thinking that you represented the municipality and
7 that the SDS was represented by Mirko Dejanovic and the SDA was
8 represented by Muhamedagic?
9 A. Yes, in formal terms I was the president of the
10 Municipal Assembly where MPs were also Muslims.
11 Q. Thank you. And now can you look at the last paragraph after
12 where it says "Arms." Everybody can read that it is requested from the
13 Serbs to hand over their illegally obtained weapons but now the last
14 paragraph, please.
15 A. Could you please zoom in a bit. That would be a good thing.
16 Which part?
17 Q. His Excellency Mr. Kwon thinks it's leading, but if you can read
18 this part.
19 A. "In that sense, Izet Muhamedagic publicly called upon the
20 representatives of the Muslim people who have illegally obtained acquired
21 weapons to hand them over in the way which had already been agreed upon
22 and a similar call was addressed by Mirko Dejanovic to Serbs who
23 illegally possess weapons." Should I go on? "Official authorities and
24 legal armed formations are duty-bound to provide security to citizens who
25 surrender their weapons. Concurrently with the activities on the
1 surrender of weapons, Muslims shall be joining the TO and the public
2 security station for the purpose of creating an ethnic structure that
3 would correspond to the structure of the population of the municipality."
4 Q. Thank you. It's on the next page in English. Is that what you
5 spoke of a moment ago, that it would be better if the Muslims had taken
6 part in the Territorial Defence?
7 A. Yes, of course. Well, that was the aspiration, to have a single
8 formation in a military and civilian sense.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted, this
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D3850, Your Honours.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Mr. Pasic, you were saying that you had difficulties and that it
16 was impossible to do regularly everything that the authorities wanted to
17 do. When did these difficulties of yours start, from when?
18 A. Well, unfortunately these difficulties started considerably
19 before the war developments in Bosnia-Herzegovina. I have to point out
20 that the municipality of Bosanski Novi, Novi Grad, had problems already
21 in 1991, already from the month of July, that is to say a year before all
22 these things that we have been speaking about and that this primarily had
23 to do with the Croatia army. It wasn't called the Croatian Army then it
24 was the ZNG and MUP.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D9291, please. Could that be
1 shown to the witness. Thank you. I believe that there is no
2 translation, but I shall present that briefly.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, again Mr. Karadzic put a question
4 to the witness before he brings a document up onto the screen and it's
5 exactly what he did a moment ago with the newspaper article.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I've put a question now, too:
7 When did their difficulties start? And this document refers to Mr. Pasic
8 and his information provided to the closest garrison to the effect that
9 there is a war going on on the other side of the river.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Can you tell us what this text says, this document?
12 A. I see that this was sent to the corps, right, of the
13 1st Military District, to the intelligence organ. I think that's what it
14 says here. So it says that according to my press release it is stated
15 that there is fighting in the area of Hrvatska Kostajnica. That is the
16 area that I was speaking of until now. We even had civilian casualties
17 in that period. The Croatian Army killed civilians in Hrvatska
18 Kostajnica which then belonged to the municipality of Novi Grad
19 Bosanski Novi. It used to be a local commune. So it was only civilian
20 casualties there and I informed the then president of the Presidency of
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina about that, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic. On one occasion we
22 spoke on the telephone about that matter.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can it be adopted for
25 identification, but if we cannot sit longer today, would I like to ask
1 that Mr. Pasic come back tomorrow for about 20 minutes.
2 JUDGE KWON: That being the case, we will continue tomorrow. I'm
3 told we are running out of tape.
4 Yes, Ms. Sutherland.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: [Microphone not activated].
6 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Well, Your Honour, I object to it even being
8 marked for identification. He simply put the document on the screen,
9 told the witness to read it and he has and now he says can the document
10 be admitted.
11 JUDGE KWON: We'll come to this document tomorrow morning.
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, also, just very briefly, if the
13 tape's running out, I want to tender -- I -- I omitted to tender 06737 in
14 my examination.
15 JUDGE KWON: Which was used by the Defence.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes. And the exhibit --
17 JUDGE KWON: You like it to be admitted as part of Prosecution
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, please, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we will.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: And the exhibit that I referred to on transcript
22 page 13 is P02418.
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Shall we assign a number for that, 6737.
24 THE REGISTRAR: It will become Exhibit P6440, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE KWON: Is it okay, Mr. Pasic, to stay over tonight until
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if you're asking me what I
3 sincerely think, I wish we could have finished today, but if I should
4 stay until tomorrow, I agree.
5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. The hearing is adjourned.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.52 p.m.,
7 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 10th day
8 of July, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.