Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 42066

 1                           Monday, 29 July 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 6             Today we'll be sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis, with

 7     Judge Morrison being away due to his personal urgent matters.  This will

 8     continue during the entire week.  Again, the Chamber entered into empty

 9     Courtroom I, that's why it was a bit delayed.

10             The first witness today will be Mr. Djuric?

11             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Through the Chamber's Legal Officer, the

13     Chamber received the notice about the four paragraphs that is to be

14     added -- that are to be added to his statement.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

16             JUDGE KWON:  And I -- the last statement, the last paragraph

17     reads like this:

18             "This statement is made at the request of the Defence team of

19     Radovan Karadzic and includes information that they are interested in.

20     It does not purport to be a comprehensive account of all the events."

21             What do you understand that paragraph to mean, Mr. Robinson?

22             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  That paragraph was actually

23     inserted at my request because there are other things that Mr. Djuric

24     participated in concerning Srebrenica and that his troops were doing that

25     were not of interest to us in subsequent days, and so I didn't want him

Page 42067

 1     to be -- there to be the impression that he was somehow concealing these

 2     things by not including them in the statement.  So in order to clarify

 3     that situation, I suggested that he add the last paragraph.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  While reading this paragraph, I will -- I was

 5     wondering how the Defence statement -- witness statement is drafted and

 6     prepared.  Is my observation that the witness statement is drafted by the

 7     Defence team and when agreed upon, the witness would sign it?  Is my

 8     observation correct?

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  The initial statement is taken in the field.  In

10     this case at the prison there was a meeting between our investigator and

11     Mr. Djuric and he sent -- they prepared together the draft of the

12     statement, which they sent to us here in The Hague.  And then when we had

13     our proofing with Dr. Karadzic and myself on Friday we added -- or

14     discussed with the witness and added some paragraphs to it, thus

15     producing the final statement.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Who is going to cover Mr. Djuric, Mr. Costi, is it

17     you?  Do you have any observation to make?

18             MR. COSTI:  Your Honour, good morning.  Well, my observation is

19     that in fact this statement is a selection of what Mr. Djuric has

20     testified about in prior cases, and I at least in part disagree with what

21     Mr. Robinson said in the sense that that information related to those

22     days that he discussed in his prior testimony that are not contained in

23     the statement.  This is a selection of some of the facts that the Defence

24     probably believe are more helpful.  There are other information that I

25     would try to get from the information during the cross-examination, and

Page 42068

 1     that's why we asked for one hour and a half time for crossing, although

 2     the statement is only two pages.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  But among the -- those four paragraphs suggested to

 4     be added, actually only two paragraphs made their way to the statement,

 5     correct, Mr. Robinson?  Paragraphs 21 and 22?  Or I may have a wrong

 6     version.

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Actually, the version I'm looking at of 22

 8     paragraphs is the one that we're offering.  I'm not sure -- I don't have

 9     the other version in front of me, so I'm not sure the difference between

10     them.  But we did add some paragraphs in the proofing.

11             MR. COSTI:  If I may be of assistance, the changes made pertain

12     to paragraph 1, where information about the prior conviction of

13     Mr. Djuric were added; paragraph 14, the last sentence; paragraph 21; and

14     22.  So it does relate to four paragraphs, but the only full new

15     paragraphs are 21 and 22.

16             JUDGE KWON:  In any event, in light of the timing of the notice

17     and also the concerns I expressed, I would like to order that paragraphs

18     21 and 22 to be led live.

19             Shall we bring in the witness.

20             Mr. Stojanovic, if you could introduce yourself when the witness

21     is brought in.

22                           [The witness entered court]

23             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness make the solemn declaration,

24     please.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

Page 42069

 1     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 2                           WITNESS:  MENDELJEV DJURIC

 3                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, Mr. Djuric.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Please be seated and make yourself comfortable.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  If the counsel assisting Mr. Djuric could introduce

 9     himself, please.

10             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Honours.

11     Once again, Miodrag Stojanovic.  Today I'm representing

12     Mr. Mendeljev Djuric.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Stojanovic.

14             Mr. Djuric, before you commence your evidence, although I take it

15     you are already well aware of this, I must draw your attention to a

16     certain rule that we have here at the International Tribunal, that is,

17     Rule 90(E).  Under this rule you may object to answering any question

18     from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecution, or even from the Judges if you

19     believe that your answer might incriminate you in a criminal offence.  In

20     this context, "incriminate" means saying something that might amount to

21     an admission of guilt for a criminal offence or saying something that

22     might provide evidence that you might have committed a criminal offence.

23     However, should you think that an answer might incriminate you and as a

24     consequence you refuse to answer the question, I must let you know that

25     the Tribunal has the power to compel you to answer the question.  But in

Page 42070

 1     that situation, the Tribunal would ensure that your testimony compelled

 2     under such circumstances would not be used in any case that might be laid

 3     against you for any offence, save and except the offence of giving false

 4     testimony.  Do you understand what I have told you, Mr. Djuric?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President, I do.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 7             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Excellencies.  Good

 9     morning to everybody.

10                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Djuric.

12        A.   Thank you, Mr. President.

13        Q.   Both you and I should make breaks between my question and your

14     answer and we should both speak slowly so that everything may be recorded

15     in the transcript.

16             Did you provide a statement to my Defence team?

17        A.   Yes, I did.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D09590 in

19     e-court.  Zoom in, please.  There is also an English version.  Thank you.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Mr. Djurdjic, pay attention to the screen, please.  On the

22     left-hand side there is a version in Serbian.  Do you see your statement

23     on the screen?

24        A.   Yes, I do.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Did you read the statement and did you sign it as

Page 42071

 1     well?

 2        A.   Yes, I did.  Yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

 5     the last page with his signature.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Is this your signature, sir?

 8        A.   Yes, it is.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Does the statement accurately reflect what you stated

10     before the Defence team?

11        A.   Yes, it does.

12        Q.   If I were to put the same questions to you today, would your

13     answers be the same?

14        A.   Yes, they would.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Now I'm going to read a short summary in English and

16     then I would like to deal with some additions to the statements that we

17     added during the proofing session.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Probably before that, you are tendering the

19     statement as evidence?

20             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  And there are no associated

21     exhibits.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  So with the redaction of paragraphs 21 and 22,

23     I wonder whether there's any objection from the Prosecution?

24             MR. COSTI:  No objection.

25             JUDGE KWON:  We'll admit -- we'll admit it into evidence.

Page 42072

 1             Shall we assign a number for that.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, statement number 1D09590 receives

 3     number D3903, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 5             Please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             [In English] Mendeljev Djuric in July 1995 was an instructor at

 8     the Republika Srpska Ministry of Interior special police training centre

 9     at Mount Jahorina.  He was assigned to train persons who had been

10     arrested for attempting to avoid military service.

11             On July the 12th, 1995, he and his recruits were sent to

12     Potocari, where they were tasked to guard the civilians from Srebrenica

13     who had gathered there.  They remained there until 13th of July, 1995,

14     when the last bus departed.

15             Mr. Djuric was unaware of any plan to kill men from Srebrenica.

16     He was unaware that personal belongings and identification were being

17     confiscated from men in Potocari -- at Potocari.  He never made any

18     statement to the effect that the men would no longer be needing their

19     identification.

20             Mr. Djuric has been convicted of aiding and abetting genocide in

21     the court of Bosnia and Herzegovina and has been sentenced to 30 years in

22     prison.  He has appealed that conviction.  Mr. Djuric testified as a

23     witness of the Prosecution in the Popovic trial here at the ICTY.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   And now I would like to deal with the paragraphs that were added.

Page 42073

 1     I would like to bring the statement back on the screen, please --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, to lead live does not mean that -- to

 3     show the document -- statement to the witness --

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I apologise.  Yes, I

 5     apologise.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. Djuric, did you hear of the existence of any sort of plan to

 8     kill POWs, men, civilians after the fall of Srebrenica?

 9        A.   I never heard anything remotely similar to that.

10        Q.   Did you personally have a feeling or did you personally intend to

11     destroy Bosnian Muslims as a whole or in a -- their part?

12        A.   I never had any intention that would in any way harm anybody,

13     including Bosniaks or Muslims in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

14        Q.   Thank you.  During the war during the previous 43 or 44 months of

15     war, did you witness the existence of any plan of that kind?  Did you see

16     that anybody unlawfully killed people?

17        A.   No, I did not witness any such developments.  I was not aware of

18     any such things.

19        Q.   Did you know anybody from your surroundings who had genocidal

20     intentions to eliminate Muslims as a whole or in part?

21        A.   No, I was a member of an honourable unit, the special brigade of

22     the Ministry of the Interior.  None of my colleagues, none of the

23     officers or members of that unit ever did any such thing or discussed any

24     such thing.

25        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Djuric.

Page 42074

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] At this moment I have no more

 2     questions for Mr. Djuric.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Thank you.

 4             Mr. Djuric, as you have noted, your evidence in chief in this

 5     case has been admitted in writing, that is, through your written

 6     statement in lieu of your oral testimony.  And now you'll be

 7     cross-examined by the representative of the Office of the Prosecutor.

 8             Yes, Mr. Costi.

 9             MR. COSTI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

10                           Cross-examination by Mr. Costi:

11        Q.   Good morning, sir.

12        A.   Good morning.

13        Q.   Now, we just heard that on the 25th of May, 2012, the State Court

14     of Bosnia and Herzegovina found you guilty for aiding and abetting for

15     genocide for the event in Srebrenica and sentenced you for 30 years.  Is

16     that correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Now, I would like to see with you very briefly what the

19     state court actually said you did in relation to the event of Srebrenica.

20     First the state court said that you commanded the members of the Jahorina

21     recruit in disarming the UNPROFOR members at the entrance of Potocari,

22     weakening their power, preventing them from protecting the people

23     gathered in the UN base and the surrounding factories.  Is it correct

24     that the state court said this?

25        A.   I hope that I managed to prove before the BiH court that the

Page 42075

 1     allegations of the disarming of UN members are not correct, but I would

 2     like to draw your attention, I would like to say, and I would like to

 3     answer your first question:  Yes, I was convicted, but I appealed and I

 4     believe that my appeal is well-grounded.  I have four possibilities or

 5     four reasons to appeal or four grounds for appeal, and we appealed on all

 6     four grounds.  One of them was confirmed by the International Court of

 7     Human Rights in Strasbourg and they thought that I was right.  So I

 8     expect that that first-instance sentence will be altered and much more

 9     favourable on my behalf, in view of the fact that the Court of Human

10     Rights said that I was right in appealing.

11        Q.   All right.  Now from now on I would ask you to just answer my

12     question if possible with a yes or no.  We are aware of your appeal.

13             Now, the state court at trial said also that you commanded the

14     Jahorina recruits engaged in separating the able-bodied men and in their

15     imprisonment in the white house.  Is this what the trial chamber said?

16        A.   The trial chamber, not the prosecutor, and I state here before

17     you that I was not in a position even to see the actions that I was

18     charged with from the position where I was.

19        Q.   We will deal with each of these issues in detail very soon.

20             Third thing, the state court trial chamber said that you deployed

21     the members of the Jahorina recruits along the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje

22     road to capture Bosniak men; is this what the state court said you did?

23        A.   The state court said that, yes.

24        Q.   The state court said that you commanded members of the Jahorina

25     recruits as they executed men from Srebrenica at the Kravica warehouse.

Page 42076

 1     Is this what the state court said?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And finally, the state court said that you commanded members of

 4     the Jahorina recruits searching the terrain on the 17th and 18th of July

 5     to find the remaining men from the column, knowing that they will be

 6     executed.  Is this what the state court said?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And today you're here to testify about these events?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Events that, as you said, you are appealing before the

11     state court; right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Now, it is true that you were the commander of the 1st Company of

14     the Jahorina recruits in those days?

15        A.   I was an instructor at the training centre.  According to the

16     systemisation of the Ministry of the Interior, I received the decision to

17     become an instructor at the special brigade of the police.

18        Q.   It is true that you were the commander of the 1st Company of the

19     Jahorina recruits in those days?

20        A.   In the way it worked, the centre did not have those military

21     forms, didn't have companies or platoons, no.  It was an unusual group

22     that appeared.  The instructors were given an additional task, to

23     discharge those duties.

24        Q.   Let me read you what you said in the Popovic case on the 1st of

25     May, 2007, at transcript 10793.

Page 42077

 1             "Yes, probably as one of the oldest and the person with the most

 2     experience, as I was appointed commander of the 1st Company.

 3             "And how many companies were there, sir?

 4             "There were two companies.

 5             "And who was the commander of the 2nd Company, sir?

 6             "A. The commander of the 2nd Company was Mr. Nedjo Ikonic."

 7             So there were two companies, two commanders, you were the

 8     commander of the 1st Company; right?

 9        A.   Yes, I have just explained or at least tried to explain what was

10     the fact and what you can find in the documents that I believe you have.

11        Q.   Now, you don't mention the word "commander" a second time I think

12     in your statement, and the draft statement we received said at paragraph

13     22nd that there was a selection of important facts that the Karadzic

14     Defence selected for your statement.  Now, the information that you were

15     the commander of the 1st Company is not there.  Is this one of the facts

16     that the Karadzic Defence asked you to omit from your statement?

17        A.   Believe me that I did not understand the question.  Please could

18     you be so kind as to repeat it, please.  I don't think I understood --

19             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Djuric --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon.

21             JUDGE KWON:  -- that company, did it exist from the beginning at

22     Jahorina centre or was it composed when you were sent to the Srebrenica

23     area?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, that company existed

25     when I came to Jahorina because I did not come with the other instructors

Page 42078

 1     at the same time; I came later.  Since I was undergoing training in the

 2     Republic of Serbia, in Belgrade, so there is that part that the

 3     Prosecutor mentioned.  Since I was one of the oldest people there, I was

 4     given the privilege to lead that group that they called a company.

 5     Otherwise, I came as an instructor and that is what I was according to

 6     the law and according to the rules that exist in the Ministry of the

 7     Interior.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 9             Please continue, Mr. Costi.

10             MR. COSTI:

11        Q.   I'll try to rephrase my question then.  In your statement you did

12     not say that you were leading, commanding, the 1st Company of the

13     Jahorina recruits; right?

14        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, throughout the proceedings against me in Bosnia

15     and Herzegovina I claimed that I was not a company commander, rather,

16     that I was an instructor and that there was a group of instructors there

17     who were my equals, and we distributed our work amongst ourselves in

18     order to carry out the work at hand in an easier way.

19        Q.   But you just agreed that you were leading that company during

20     those days in Potocari?  Yeah?

21        A.   Yes, yes.

22        Q.   And I try last time and then I move on.  The fact that you were

23     leading the company is not mentioned in your statement, is it?

24        A.   I'm really taken aback.  I mean, do you mean this statement I

25     signed for Mr. Karadzic when I was in contact with his Defence, you mean

Page 42079

 1     that part?  I did not really pay attention.  I cannot say now -- well,

 2     possibly.

 3        Q.   Can I just ask you the name of the investigator of the Karadzic

 4     Defence who contacted you and who took your statement?

 5        A.   Milomir Furtula.  He is the investigator who came to the

 6     Detention Unit of the BH court and he brought the statement there for me

 7     to sign.

 8        Q.   So the statement was drafted when you saw it?

 9        A.   In part, yes.

10        Q.   Now, on the morning of the 12th of July --

11             JUDGE KWON:  I'd like to know the meaning "in part."

12             Could you explain, Mr. Djuric?  You answered:  Yes, in part, to

13     the question whether the statement was drafted when you saw it.  Could

14     you tell us in detail how your statement was drafted and signed?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The gentleman who came there who I

16     did not even know, he, well, probably had instructions from the Defence

17     how to do things.  We talked and I wanted the statement to look a bit

18     different, so that's why I said "yes," but not fully.

19             JUDGE KWON:  You just said you "wanted the statement to look a

20     bit different."  So the gentleman brought a statement drafted by the

21     Defence team; is that what you said?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Do you know how the Defence team drafted that draft?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know, believe me.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Did you have the conversation between the Defence

Page 42080

 1     team before you saw that draft.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With the Defence team?  No.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Mr. Costi.  But just a second.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Mr. Costi.

 6             MR. COSTI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7        Q.   Now, the morning of the 12th of July you and your company were

 8     the first Serbs to arrive in Potocari; right?

 9        A.   I do not dare claim that we were the first; however, when we

10     arrived there in the area where I was, I did not see any other military

11     formations.

12        Q.   And you explained in your statement at -- actually, in your

13     Popovic testimony that when you arrived you got in touch with the UN,

14     which is something you usually do when you go into the field; right?

15        A.   Yes, there was a group of UN members under the command of a

16     captain in the area where I was, at the position where I was.  I think

17     that his last name was van Duijn, I hope I am pronouncing this right.

18     Since it is usual police practice in Bosnia-Herzegovina when you go out

19     into the field for any reason, when you come across certain people in the

20     field then you contact them and that is how I established contact with

21     these persons from the UN.

22        Q.   Now, apart from getting in contact, you and your unit did

23     something more.  You forced the DutchBat soldiers to surrender their

24     weapons and you detained or otherwise restricted the freedom of movement

25     of some of them; is that right?

Page 42081

 1        A.   No, absolutely not.

 2        Q.   Now, this Chamber heard the testimony of Johannes Rutten, P03948,

 3     which at paragraph 47 describing when he was -- his freedom of movement

 4     was restricted, he said:

 5             "We stayed at that location for a few hours.  The group included

 6     me, my ten soldiers, and the doctor that was with me.  I saw someone that

 7     looked to me also as an officer, and later on he became known as the

 8     so-called Captain Mane.  I have been shown a picture, P03956, on which I

 9     identify the so-called Captain Mane.  I protested to him that we were

10     held there and I protested to him that we had lost our equipment.  He

11     didn't even bother to look at me.  He sent me back to the rest of the

12     group.  A few hours later when he came back, I protested again and I said

13     that we could do nothing more there and that we had to go back to the

14     compound.  And finally, he said that he would go back and sent with my

15     group two Bosnian soldiers to escort me to the compound again."

16             So I'm asking you again:  You and your unit took equipment from

17     the UN soldiers and you restricted their freedom of movement; right?

18        A.   Categorically, no.

19        Q.   Very well.  Now, I was thinking to show you the images that you

20     already commented upon in your -- Popovic case, but you have already said

21     that you remember the name of van Duijn as the UN DutchBat you spent most

22     of the time with.  And you were talking to Mr. van Duijn through your

23     interpreter, Mike, right?

24        A.   I think that it is my duty to say that this is not an

25     interpreter.  This is one of the members of the training centre who

Page 42082

 1     happened to know a bit of English, and then we used him in order to be

 2     able to establish this basic communication.  However, he was not an

 3     interpreter.

 4        Q.   Now, in the -- you spent basically all the time, all day, with

 5     van Duijn; right?

 6        A.   Almost all the time, both days, the 12th and the 13th.  I spent

 7     them with him while I was out there on the ground, with him or in his

 8     immediate vicinity.

 9        Q.   Now, you talk very briefly in your statement about the boarding

10     process of the civilians which you testified extensively about in your

11     Popovic testimony.  What you don't say in your statement is that you were

12     in charge of the unit that was engaged in boarding the civilians in

13     Potocari on the buses; right?

14        A.   That's not what I said and there's a reason why I didn't say

15     that.  This group of mine was not in charge of transport or loading.  We

16     had a purely police task:  To provide security for a group of civilians

17     who happened to be in that area.

18        Q.   But you did co-operate with the UN in boarding the people on the

19     buses; right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And this is what van Duijn said in his testimony in the Popovic

22     case at paragraph 2290 -- I'm sorry, at transcript page 2290.

23             "Q.  And from where you were located, sir, who was in command of

24     those soldiers and that process?

25             "A.  From my point of view, that was Mane."

Page 42083

 1             And at 2286:

 2             "Basically, the way it worked was that Mane told me how many

 3     buses or trucks were to arrive, were present, and so how many refugees

 4     could be seated in those trucks."

 5             So what you were doing in Potocari was regulating the process of

 6     boarding the civilians on the buses; right?

 7        A.   No.  You know, that claim made by Mr. van Duijn that I knew of

 8     the arrival of the vehicles, how many vehicles, what kind of vehicles,

 9     et cetera, I absolutely had no communication with anyone from the Army of

10     Republika Srpska from whom I could have received such information.  The

11     only thing that we did in that area from the beginning of the transport

12     civilians were frightened.  However, after a few vehicles left, this

13     fright disappeared and then people wanted to leave as soon as possible.

14     And then actually our first job occurred, if I can call it that, for

15     Mr. van Duijn and myself, that we organise these people that we had there

16     and in a way to try to channel people.  Because if one or two buses, it

17     is impossible for 500 persons to board those buses.  In a way we had to

18     channel them, create some kind of order, so that this would move as

19     safely and as painlessly as possible.

20        Q.   Now, what you just said brings me to my next question, in fact,

21     which is you said in your statement that you were there to protect these

22     people.  And at paragraph 16 you also said that nobody was forced to

23     leave.  But this is not true, is it?  Muslim refugees had no choice but

24     leaving; right?

25        A.   As for the choices, wishes, and aspirations of the refugees, I

Page 42084

 1     really did not know anything about that at that point in time.  I was not

 2     informed by anyone and I had no information whether they wanted to go,

 3     how they would go, whether they would go, and so on, all these questions.

 4     However, the fact is that once the transport started, civilians who

 5     wished to go did go, and as a matter of fact they tried to leave that

 6     place as fast as they could.

 7        Q.   Let me tell you what van Duijn said on the freedom of choice of

 8     the civilians in Potocari and what you said on this point.

 9             "Q. Now, let's go back to when you first met Captain Mane.  I

10     believe you testified that he approached you and identified himself.  Did

11     he tell you why he was approaching you?

12             "A. He wanted to know if I was the local commander of the

13     United Nations at that position or outside the compound, and he told me

14     that the refugees were going to be transported out of the enclave.

15             "Q. Can you describe what Captain Mane's demeanour and tone of

16     voice were when he told you that, sir?

17             "A. He was very clear and he brought it as a fact, that the

18     refugees were going to leave Srebrenica.  He told me that 200 buses -- he

19     mentioned the number of 200 were coming to pick up these refugees and he

20     brought it to me as a matter of fact."

21             Now -- this is the end of the quote.  When you first approached

22     van Duijn, it was already decided that these people were -- had to leave;

23     right?

24        A.   Whether any kind of decision was made and what kind of decision

25     was made, I really don't know about that.  I did not take part in that

Page 42085

 1     and I was not informed about that.  However, that someone did -- or that

 2     someone had to go, I don't think that that was the case.  The only

 3     information I had - because I was a very low-ranking policeman in that

 4     area, I did not receive any information.  However, my superior officer a

 5     day before the 12th and the 13th told me that I was to lead a group to

 6     secure civilians, that we were supposed to do police work, and politics

 7     and others would decide what else and so on and so forth.  So as for

 8     these decisions and these things, I really do not have any information.

 9     Who made these decisions, how, none of that, at least at that moment I

10     didn't know anything.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript, please.  I have been

12     restraining myself so far, but there are going to be a lot of

13     interventions in the transcript.  In the -- in lines 3 and 4 that I was

14     supposed to lead a group to protect civilians [In English] "Protect" is

15     missing.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

17             Please continue, Mr. Costi.

18             MR. COSTI:  Thank you.

19        Q.   I'm putting to you --

20             JUDGE KWON:  Can I intervene there?

21             MR. COSTI:  Yes.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Djuric, although you didn't participate in the

23     decision-making at all, at certain point of time were you told by whoever

24     that there would be -- that there would be 200 buses coming to transport

25     the Muslim population?

Page 42086

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, as for the

 2     transport, the number of transport vehicles or any topic in relation to

 3     the transport, I did not have any information about any of that.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 5             Please continue.

 6             MR. COSTI:

 7        Q.   Mr. Djuric, your task in Potocari wasn't about protecting; it was

 8     about expelling, it was about deportation.  And this is, in fact, what

 9     the state court said, that you order and control the members of the

10     1st Company who participated in the acts of forcible removal of

11     civilians.

12        A.   That's what the court said, yes, but I claim that I did not take

13     part in any kind of forcible removal of civilians in Potocari.

14        Q.   Very well.  Now at paragraph 13 of your statement you said:

15             "Not for a single moment did I participate in separating the

16     people in Potocari on the 12th or the 13th of July, 1995.  I did not know

17     that the men were being separated from their families while I was in

18     Potocari.  I was not ordered to separate the men."

19             Now, this proposition is simply not true.  In fact, you saw the

20     separation, you knew of the separation, and in fact you co-ordinated the

21     separation of the men in Potocari on the 12th and the 13th of July;

22     right?

23        A.   No, no, categorically no.

24        Q.   Right.

25             MR. COSTI:  So can I have P00667, which is a video, Your Honour,

Page 42087

 1     very short.

 2             I would like to show the witness the separation, since he has ...

 3                           [Video-clip played]

 4             MR. COSTI:  Now, you see here the men -- maybe it's not there

 5     yet.  Here we are.  You will see the column of men walking.  And we can

 6     just stop here.

 7        Q.   Now, these men had just been separated near the DutchBat compound

 8     on the 13th of July.  Do you recall seeing these things happening?

 9        A.   No.  At the place where I was together with van Duijn, next to

10     him, at that place at that location, certainly there was no separation of

11     anyone.

12        Q.   We will get there too.  Now, you see the man on the left of the

13     screen wearing a red cardigan, don't you?  I'm not asking you to

14     recognise him.  Just, do you see a man with a red cardigan?

15        A.   Yes, yes.

16        Q.   Now --

17        A.   Yes.

18             MR. COSTI:  Yeah, and this, Your Honour, is minute 1 hour, 11

19     minutes, and -- no, sorry.  My mistake 1 minute, 11 seconds, this is

20     the -- that's where we stopped the clip that the witness commented upon.

21        Q.   Now, this man is Meza Efendic [phoen].

22             MR. COSTI:  P04066.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Number again, Mr. Costi.

24             MR. COSTI:  P04066.

25        Q.   Now, this is a picture of a mass grave in Kozluk.  Do you see

Page 42088

 1     that there is a body with a red cardigan?

 2        A.   I can barely see it, yes.

 3        Q.   Now, these are the remains of the same man, Meza Efendic.  He was

 4     separated in Potocari, executed, and put in a mass grave.  Now, the men

 5     separated in Potocari, like Meza Efendic, were systematically killed.

 6     Now, you don't recall having seen the separation because - and I'm

 7     putting to you - you don't want to be associated with this; right?

 8        A.   No.  Once again, I repeat, at the place where I was, no

 9     separation was taking place.  I am not claiming that apart from that

10     place something did or did not happen.  I don't know that, I did not see

11     that, I cannot speak about that.  However, the place where I was, it is

12     certain there were no separations or any of these things that you spoke

13     of just now.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. COSTI:  I don't need the picture anymore.

16        Q.   Now, let's talk about the place where you were and let me read

17     you what van Duijn, the peacekeeper you spent most of the time with, said

18     about the separation on the 12th of July.  And this is his testimony on

19     the 27th September, 2006, in the Popovic case.

20             "A. The Serb soldiers behind my location singled out the Muslim

21     men and they were put two along in front of houses without any facade,

22     and they were put there to wait.  They sat down on the lawn in front of

23     the house and of course I questioned Mane why they singled out these men

24     from the women and children.

25             "Q. And what did Mane tell you, if anything, in response to your

Page 42089

 1     question?

 2             "A. Mane told me that they had a list of war criminals, Muslim

 3     war criminals, and that they were going to check if the person, the men

 4     they singled out, were on the list of war criminals, which they wanted to

 5     try for their criminal actions earlier in the war."

 6             So talking about the location where you were, Witness van Duijn

 7     asked you why men were separated, and you gave an explanation.  You said

 8     because you were searching for criminals, for war criminals; is that

 9     right?

10        A.   I do not remember.  I cannot say with 100 per cent certainty, but

11     I do not remember discussing that topic with Mr. van Duijn at all.  Now I

12     would like to ask you something very kindly so that it would be easier

13     both for you and me.  I don't know how appropriate it is for me to speak

14     now about the judgement of the BH court; however, I have to remind you

15     that Mr. van Duijn refused to testify in the proceedings against me and I

16     don't know why.  All of these assertions he made here that are negative

17     as far as I'm concerned, he did not make it possible for me to clarify

18     this matter before the trial chamber.  And now that we're discussing that

19     case and I see that that case --

20        Q.   Sir --

21        A.   -- before the BH court is highly inspiring for you --

22        Q.   I'm not discussing --

23        A.   -- please, there is one fact there.

24        Q.   I'm not discussing that case.  I'm talking about his testimony in

25     this Tribunal.  Now let me read you another passage of van Duijn in this

Page 42090

 1     court at transcript page 2289 on the 27th of September.  He said:

 2             "The explanation from Captain Mane was that they wanted to search

 3     for war criminals, and although that was credible I objected every time

 4     there was a clear view of the Serb soldiers singling out boys or old men

 5     that were too old or too young to be soldiers.  So I objected with Mane

 6     when the situation happened.

 7             "And in those occasions, Major, what would the result of your

 8     intervention be?

 9             "A. On all these occasions I objected with Mane, he would let the

10     men go through and accompanied the rest of their family to the buses."

11             So not he recalls talking to you about the criminal

12     investigations, but he also remembers that boys and older men were

13     separated, he would object to that, and you would agree with him that

14     they should go with their family; is that right?

15        A.   I didn't speak to Mr. van Duijn about the topics you have just

16     discussed.  I never spoke to him about that, and Witness Mike, the

17     interpreter, confirmed before the state court of BiH that all these

18     documents concerning the separation were never anything he interpreted

19     about.

20        Q.   All right.  Then let's continue to talk about separation but from

21     a different perspective.  You said in your statement that you were not

22     ordered --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

24             Mr. Djuric, in addition to the fact that Mr. van Duijn refused to

25     testify in your case, you wanted to say something further.  What was it?

Page 42091

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to add that the

 2     trial chamber thought it necessary to admit Van Duijn's testimony but

 3     didn't think it necessary to make sure his presence so that he could

 4     testify viva voce, with the strange explanation that it would be too

 5     stressful for him.  But given the fact that this gentleman is a

 6     professional soldier, I have my doubts about that and I think that the

 7     real reasons are different.  Because other witnesses who testified before

 8     the State Court of Bosnia-Herzegovina spoke about a totally different

 9     truth.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

11             Please continue, Mr. Costi.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The transcript is a disaster.  I am

13     holding back, but, for example, page 25, line 15, [In English] -- says I

14     confirmed before the state court of BH that all these subjects concerning

15     the separation were never ... and so on.  And in 26, line 1, witness

16     didn't say "viva voce," but he said that he -- they couldn't make sure

17     his presence to be cross-examined.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, but we could all understand the context.  Thank

19     you.

20             Shall we continue.

21             MR. COSTI:  Yes, Mr. President, time is running.

22        Q.   So let's keep talking about the separation.  I would like to call

23     65 ter 25328A which is an audio.  This is an audio of Jovan Zametica, a

24     spokesman for Radovan Karadzic.

25                           [Video-clip played].

Page 42092

 1             "Interviewer:  Mr. Almeda, thank you very much indeed.  And on

 2     the line now is Jovan Zametica who is the spokesman for Radovan Karadzic,

 3     the leader of the Bosnian Serbs.

 4             "Mr. Zametica, what you're doing there is simply inhuman, is it

 5     not?

 6             "Jovan Zametica:  Well, Mr. Humphreys, I shall give you a good

 7     suggestion.  Why don't you, for a difference, once begin to blame the UN

 8     rather than the Serbs.

 9             "Interviewer:  Because it is not the UN who are separating men

10     from their families, putting them on buses, and driving them from their

11     homes.  That's why.

12             "Jovan Zametica:  Well, I shall say that in that connection.  We

13     are separating the men from women, children, and the elderly for a very

14     good reason.  You may not know this, and I'm pretty sure you don't, but

15     at the beginning of this conflict and throughout it, in the region of

16     Srebrenica the Muslims carried out some particularly gruesome massacres

17     of Serb civilians.  They're well-documented massacres, and we simply wish

18     to question those men to find out whether some of them may have been

19     responsible for those massacres.

20             "Interviewer:  So that is why all the males aged from 16 upwards,

21     including old men, have been taken from their family, not just a few, not

22     just who those whom it is acknowledged, a small handful, most people who

23     are there, the independent observers tell us, have been involved in the

24     kinds of things you talked about, all these men?

25             "Jovan Zametica:  Well, we wish to carry out a thorough

Page 42093

 1     investigation, and if you are dissatisfied with my answer, so be it.  I

 2     know of your anti-Serb attitude from our previous interviews.  But

 3     perhaps we may move on to more substantial matters.

 4             "Interviewer:  Well, before we do, let me just make the point

 5     that we take our information from our correspondents in the area, from

 6     the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, from organisations

 7     like Medecins Sans Frontieres, Sans Frontier, who have no axe to grind.

 8     And indeed, from the forces serving there, the British and other forces

 9     serving there.  That's where we get our information from.

10             "Jovan Zametica:  Well --

11             "Interviewer:  They are not all biased against you, Mr. Zametica.

12             "Jovan Zametica:  For a change you could begin to get your

13     information from the Serbs, but I know you're not interested in that.

14             "Interviewer:  Well, we could also get it from the Bosnian

15     Muslims but we seek our information from independent sources.

16             "Jovan Zametica:  I'm happy to supply you with well-documented

17     evidence of horrendous massacres carried out by the Muslims in Srebrenica

18     region from 1992 to 1995.

19             "Interviewer:  What I -- perhaps you'll tell me what is going to

20     happen to all of these men.  Are they going to be returned to their

21     families if you discover that they are not guilty of war crimes?

22             "Jovan Zametica:  Well, when -- when they -- when the

23     investigation is over, they will be presented with a choice, either they

24     stay in their homes in Srebrenica, no one is going to expel them from

25     there, or if they so wish, they can go elsewhere, they can go to

Page 42094

 1     Central Bosnia or they can go outside the country.

 2             "Interviewer:  And how long will these investigations take place,

 3     do you think?

 4             "Jovan Zametica:  Well, I'm sure -- I'm pretty sure this is going

 5     to be a rapid exercise.

 6             "Interviewer:  Well, you say 'rapid,' are you talking about days,

 7     weeks, or months, or years?

 8             "Jovan Zametica:  Well, I -- I think it's a question of days,

 9     maybe weeks, but certainly no longer than that.

10             "Interviewer:  So we would expect that within a matter of weeks

11     the vast majority of these men would be returned to their families?

12             "Jovan Zametica:  Correct.

13             "Interviewer:  And how will they get there because they've now

14     been separated from their families?

15             "Jovan Zametica:  Well, they can go there by the route that's

16     already been adopted to Kladanj and to Tuzla.  I think many of them will

17     express the desire to go abroad because they don't wish to live in

18     Mr. Izetbegovic's" --

19             MR. COSTI:

20        Q.   Now, what you just heard was broadcasted on the 13th of July in

21     the morning while you were in Potocari.  So we have Zametica,

22     Mr. Karadzic's spokesman and Defence witness, who told the BBC that the

23     men were separated from the rest of their families; right?  This is what

24     he said?

25        A.   I said a minute ago, if I'm not mistaken, that it is not my claim

Page 42095

 1     that this never happened, but where I was and the people who were with me

 2     and those UN soldiers and Mr. van Duijn, we never did that nor was I in

 3     the position to see or to observe anyone in my immediate surroundings

 4     doing anything like that.

 5        Q.   So on the 13th morning, they knew it in Pale, they knew it in

 6     London because the BBC journalist asked the questions having got the

 7     information somewhere else, but you in Potocari, right there, had no

 8     idea?

 9        A.   Just a brief digression --

10        Q.   I'd like you to answer the question before the digression.

11        A.   -- I arrived around 10.00 or 10.30 at Potocari on that morning --

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Costi --

13             MR. COSTI:  I'm sorry.

14             JUDGE KWON:  -- please let him continue.

15             Mr. Djuric, what you're saying is that you knew but you didn't do

16     that?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I said it may have been

18     happening.  I'm not saying that it was.  I'm not saying that it wasn't.

19     But I didn't do it with my men and it wasn't anywhere near me.  When the

20     Prosecutor says that this was known, I can reply that I arrived in

21     Potocari in the early afternoon, at which time Mr. van Duijn and some

22     other people were organising transportation, and that had been going on

23     for some two hours before I arrived at Potocari, and I believe that you

24     can find that in statements from 2007 and others.

25             MR. COSTI:

Page 42096

 1        Q.   But you are saying that you did not know the men were separated.

 2     On the 13th morning you were there, you did not know the men were

 3     separated.  It may have happened but you did not know; right?  Is this

 4     your testimony?

 5        A.   Not that I am sure that -- that I was sure about anything.  I

 6     didn't know.  I cannot say what happened further away from me.  I never

 7     saw anything like that anywhere near me, but I can't say what other

 8     people may or may not have been doing.

 9        Q.   Now, you also just said that you arrived in the afternoon when

10     the transportation had already started, but this is not your testimony,

11     it's not even in your statement.  You got there on the 12th, in the

12     morning, before the transportation started, and you got there on the

13     13th, yes, when the transportation had already started but while you were

14     there separation continued?

15        A.   It was well underway.  I really don't know whether it continued

16     or when it began because I didn't witness it nor was I involved.

17        Q.   Let me tell you what van Duijn said about the 13th, because it is

18     the 13th that you are suggesting now that you arrived in the afternoon.

19     Asked question:

20             "Q. On this second day," 13th of July, "of separation and

21     transportation, sir, who was conducting the separation and directing the

22     refugees to the vehicles?

23             "A. The Serb forces and Mane leading them."

24             So even on the 13th you were there when the separation was taking

25     place?

Page 42097

 1        A.   I didn't say that I arrived in the afternoon.  I said that I

 2     arrived in the late morning and the hour was between 10.00 and 11.00.

 3     You're confusing me, and for the fifth or sixth time you're trying to put

 4     words in my mouth, to the effect that I saw the separation or something

 5     else.  I said at the outset that I didn't separate anyone, nor any other

 6     of my men.  I didn't give orders to separate them nor did I receive

 7     orders to separate anybody from anyone else.  I didn't know anything at

 8     the time.

 9             MR. COSTI:  Your Honours, before I forget, can I have the audio

10     that we heard be admitted into evidence?

11             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

12             JUDGE KWON:  I was wondering on what basis we would admit this

13     through this witness, but in light of the Defence position the Chamber

14     has no difficulty.

15             Shall I assign a number -- shall we assign a number for that?

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 25328A receives number P6467,

17     Your Honours.

18             MR. COSTI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19        Q.   Now, in your Popovic testimony you said that you have never seen

20     the white house; is that right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Now, this Chamber heard the testimony from many witnesses about

23     the white house, Kingori, Rutten, Franken, and others, and van Duijn who

24     testified in the Popovic case said that he saw the white house, that

25     Kingori told him about the white house, and this is what he said on the

Page 42098

 1     27th September 2006:

 2             "I saw a lot of men crammed as the UNMO Kingori had told me,

 3     crammed inside a house and a few of them sitting just in front of the

 4     house.  The whole house was basically packed with men, and in front of

 5     the house the whole front lawn ... was ... packed with a mixture of

 6     personal belongings, photographs, and also, as I saw then, passports from

 7     the men that were sitting inside the house.

 8             "... seeing those passports raised a question to me, which I also

 9     posed to Mane, that basically together with Miki had followed me from the

10     first location, the water truck to the white house.  And I posed a

11     question to him, that if the explanation he had given me about the war

12     criminals was correct, that the men would need their passports to prove

13     their identity, to show that they were in fact not on the list of war

14     criminals or differently.

15             "Q. And what, if anything, did Captain Mane say to you in

16     response to that?

17             "A. Basically he -- he grinned at me and he told me that the men

18     didn't need the passports anymore, which at that point made clear to me

19     that there was a very dark future ahead for the men in the house - and in

20     fact for the men that had been singled out also the day before."

21             So, Mr. Djuric, contrary to what you said in your statement at

22     paragraph 15, you told UN peacekeeper van Duijn that the men detained in

23     the house did not need their passport anymore; right?

24        A.   No, I didn't speak about that with van Duijn at all.  This

25     conversation never took place between him and me.

Page 42099

 1        Q.   Now, let's move to another topic then.  At paragraph 11 you said

 2     that the evening of the 12th of July - and I read your statement:

 3             " ... one of the instructors sent his platoon along the road

 4     between Bratunac and Konjevic Polje ..."

 5             What you did not say at paragraph 11 of your statement is that

 6     the evening and the night of the 12th of July it was you and part of your

 7     company who were deployed to the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road; right?

 8        A.   Yes, I stated that on the 12th in the evening, following the

 9     orders of my superior, I took part of the men subordinated to me to the

10     road from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje and we reached Glogova, if I

11     remember well.

12        Q.   And over the night you said in a statement you gave to the

13     Blagojevic Defence:

14             "I visited each and every man from my unit positioned on the road

15     in order to see what was going on."

16             Right?  You stand by that?

17        A.   Yes, yes.

18        Q.   Now this is another example of information that are not on your

19     statement.  It's not there because you were asked by the Defence to omit

20     the detail that you were on the road yourself?

21        A.   No, nobody asked me to do that.  I don't know what was omitted,

22     but I was at that location.  I assigned the people to various places and

23     I believe that I visited them during the night, but these are details

24     that aren't so easy to remember after so many years.

25        Q.   And the same thing happened also the night after, between the

Page 42100

 1     13th and the 14th of July, as you said in the Popovic testimony, in your

 2     statements, et cetera, and also there, and I read your statement at

 3     paragraph 18:

 4             "In the evening of the 13th ... my men were again distributed

 5     along the road ..."

 6             Well, actually you distributed your men along the road and you

 7     visited them two or three times to check what was going on; right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And you said you didn't catch a single prisoner in these two

10     days?

11        A.   No.

12             MR. COSTI:  Can I have P02987, please.

13        Q.   Now, this is a report signed by Borovcanin on the 13th of July.

14     It's talking about this MUP unit being deployed on the

15     Kravica-Konjevic Polje road.  I'm not sure whether we have it in front

16     of --

17             THE ACCUSED:  We don't.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Do we need to switch to e-court from Sanction.

19             MR. COSTI:  Here we are, Your Honour, it's there now.

20        Q.   If we go to page 2 of the English, still page 1 of the B/C/S, you

21     can read that it says:

22             "In the night between the 12th and the 13th this armed Muslim

23     group launched an attack in the direction of Konjevic Polje ..."

24             And then he concluded:

25             "... we captured or had surrender to us around 1.500 Muslim

Page 42101

 1     soldiers.  The number increased by the hour."

 2             So in the night between the 12th and the 13th, Borovcanin reports

 3     that they arrested around 1.500 Muslims.  But your company didn't catch a

 4     single prisoner and you haven't heard of it -- actually, two separate

 5     questions.  Your company didn't catch a single prisoner, did they?

 6        A.   A minute ago when you asked me if we had taken any prisoners, I

 7     replied that I personally had not.  Now I'm saying that my colleagues, my

 8     fellow instructors who were there with those people - because I wasn't, I

 9     only distributed them, I wasn't with them - they didn't report to me that

10     they had done anything during the night and that they had any kind of

11     contact with any army or that they had taken -- that they had arrested

12     anyone.  I have no information about that.  I cannot say if there -- if

13     these things happened or not.  My co-workers and colleagues never

14     informed me of anything similar.

15        Q.   Mr. Djuric, I said that your task that night was not to secure

16     Bratunac; it was mainly to capture and kill Muslims along the road.  And

17     I'll be more specific.  In the early evening of the 13th of July, members

18     of the 1st Company of the Jahorina recruits, your company, killed around

19     15 men who were detained on the meadow in the Sandici area.  Is that

20     correct?

21        A.   I have no information about that.  I had no information at the

22     time.  During the trial before the state court of BiH, some such

23     information was presented to me, but back then at the time I knew nothing

24     about it.

25   (redacted)

Page 42102

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14             [As read] "The prisoner that they have been surrounding --

15     surrounding in, they had been shipped by the bus, and very, very late in

16     the afternoon/early, early evening, there was 10 to 15 people left.  And

17     if we have asked the question when the next bus is coming to pick these

18     people up.  And it was told to us that there won't be any more buses and

19     that we need to get rid of them, we need to shoot them.

20             "Q. Now, sir, who gave you this order to shoot these remaining

21     prisoners?

22             "A. That order came through the gentleman by the name of Aleksa.

23             "Q. And who was Aleksa, sir?

24             "A. He was a deputy commander of 1 Platoon.

25             "Q. Okay.  Do you remember who the company commander was for

Page 42103

 1     Aleksa's unit?

 2             "A. I believe that was the gentleman by the name Mane."

 3             So the deputy commander of one of your platoons in the early

 4     evening of the 13th of July gave the order or conveyed the order to kill

 5     the 15 men, prisoners, they had left in Sandici; is that correct?

 6        A.   I have no information about that.  My activities on the 13th were

 7     geared towards Potocari and the task that I had been given on the 12th

 8     from my superior officer.  On the road there were my colleagues,

 9     instructors; however, no information reached me of any killings.  They

10     did not inform me about any such thing.

11        Q.   But you visited your subordinates, each and every man, in order

12     to see what was going on.  And also on the 13th night you went

13     twice - this is what you said in your testimony - to Konjevic Polje to

14     see the commander of the 2nd Company, Nedjo Ikonic, so you were on the

15     road that night and that evening and nobody told you anything about that?

16        A.   Precisely.

17             MR. COSTI:  Your Honour, I think it may be a good time to break.

18             JUDGE KWON:  I think I'm afraid your time is up, Mr. Costi.

19             MR. COSTI:  Yes, I'm afraid it is, but I was about to add that I

20     would ask the Chamber to give me ten more minutes after the break to

21     touch upon one last issue.  And I'm sorry for not having asked before.

22             JUDGE KWON:  I would appreciate it if you could ask for any

23     potential extension in advance, not at the last moment.  I will consult

24     my colleagues.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 42104

 1             JUDGE KWON:  We'll have a break for half an hour and resume at

 2     five past 11.00, at which time you will have ten minutes, Mr. Costi.

 3             MR. COSTI:  Thank you very much and I apologise for not having

 4     asked earlier.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 11.09 a.m.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue, Mr. Costi.

 8             MR. COSTI:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9        Q.   Now, at paragraph 19 of your statement you said that you did not

10     know about any murder that happened at Kravica warehouse on the 13th of

11     July.  And in your Popovic testimony on the 2nd of May, 2007, at

12     transcript 10828 you said that you heard about the event in Kravica much

13     later.  And you said:

14             "I heard stories, gossip of all kinds, all kinds of talk that can

15     be true or not ..."

16             So my question for you is, first of all:  When did you first

17     hear?  What did you mean by "much later"?

18        A.   I believe that this applies to the developments in Kravica which

19     happened on the 13th of July, 1995, things that happened in the afternoon

20     when people who were detained there were killed.  This is what this is

21     about and at that time I stated that I had learned about all that only

22     subsequently, much later.

23        Q.   That's what I said "much later," but I'm asking you when if you

24     recall.  Is it a question of weeks?  Months?  Years?  At one point you

25     mentioned you heard from the media.  When did you hear about the event in

Page 42105

 1     Kravica?

 2        A.   I can't tell you when that was.  I can't remember.

 3        Q.   Your commander, Dusko Jevic, testified in the Blagojevic case on

 4     the 21st October 2003, and when he was asked when he heard about the

 5     stories at Kravica.  He said:

 6             "It may have been the same evening.  This sort of information

 7     spreads rather quickly.  People talk.  It's a comparatively small area.

 8     I think I heard about this the same night -- the same evening because

 9     people were talking about it."

10             This is at transcript page 3239, 3240 on 21st of October, 2003.

11     So you that night -- testified this morning that you were visiting your

12     men deployed on the road to check what was going on.  Your commander the

13     same evening was informed that something had happened at Kravica, that

14     actually the events -- the killing took place in Kravica, and you heard

15     much later and you can't even remember when.  How is it possible that you

16     didn't know?

17        A.   How my commander learned what information he got, I don't know.

18     I can't testify about that.  However, the fact is that I was involved in

19     only one activity relative to Potocari, whereas my chief superior, the

20     chief of the training centre, was free to move about wherever he wanted

21     to.  I don't know where he was.  I don't know what information he

22     obtained and who from.  I don't know.

23        Q.   But the state court convicted you for the event in Kravica and it

24     said starting from the evening hours of the 13th of July, members of the

25     1st Company continued the execution in the Kravica warehouse upon the

Page 42106

 1     order and under the control of the accused Dusko Jevic and

 2     Mendeljev Djuric.  So it's not true that you did not know.  In fact, you

 3     ordered the men, your men deployed on the road and to secure the Kravica

 4     warehouse, to continue the execution?

 5        A.   The court decision is not final.  In my appeal I explained word

 6     for word through the prosecution witnesses and through the defence

 7     witnesses that what the prosecutor claimed was not true.  It's not right

 8     to claim that this is true.  I stick by my statement that I didn't know,

 9     that I didn't have any information at the time, that I only got that

10     information later, much later.  I don't know when exactly, but it was

11     much after the developments took place in Kravica.

12             MR. COSTI:  Can I have P06378.

13        Q.   Now, this document unfortunately wasn't on our list of documents

14     for cross-examination because the issue was touched upon the witness --

15     the witness said -- you said:

16             "I was a member of an honourable unit, the special brigade of the

17     Ministry of the Interior.  None of my colleagues or officers or members

18     of that unit ever did any such thing or discussed any such thing."

19             That was this morning at page 8, lines 19 to 21.  Now, if you

20     look at this document, this is a list of members of the special brigade

21     who were convicted for events related to Srebrenica.  This is a two-pages

22     list and it includes --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Could you tell the witness what this document is

24     about first.

25             MR. COSTI:  I'm just describing it, Your Honours.

Page 42107

 1        Q.   The -- this is a list of convictions or plea agreements before

 2     the Bosnian state court of members of your unit in relation to the event

 3     of Srebrenica.  It includes 12 names including yours.  Now, is this the

 4     honourable unit that you were talking about this morning that didn't do

 5     anything during those days?

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  I think that he's misdescribed the document and it

 9     appears to include members of other units.  For example, the first

10     list -- number one on the list, Vaso Todorovic.

11             MR. COSTI:  If I may respond, it doesn't because the witness said

12     I'm a member of an honourable unit, the special brigade of the Ministry

13     of the Interior, not just the Jahorina.  This is what he said.  And these

14     are members of the special police.

15             JUDGE KWON:  We admitted this, but who prepared this document?

16             MR. COSTI:  I think -- I think the Prosecution, but I get back to

17     you with an answer, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE KWON:  But in putting the question, it's fair enough what

19     document -- what this document is about.

20             MR. COSTI:  I was describing the content of the document,

21     Your Honours.  The source of the document, I didn't say it, but --

22             JUDGE KWON:  So it's prepared by the OTP?

23             MR. COSTI:  I will have to check, Your Honour.  I'm not sure.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Please continue.

25             MR. COSTI:

Page 42108

 1        Q.   So it's not true that it was an honourable unit at least during

 2     the event in Srebrenica; right?  Several of its members were convicted

 3     for crimes.

 4        A.   Please, sir, you are twisting things.  I said that I was a member

 5     of the special brigade of the police of an honourable unit, and this list

 6     includes members of the training centre.  These people were in training

 7     in the centre that had been set up by the Ministry of the Interior.  Only

 8     few of us instructors were there from the special brigade.  These are not

 9     my colleagues.  These are not members of the special unit.  These are

10     absolutely people who are something else, who were in training and who

11     may have become members of the Ministry of the Interior, but they would

12     have hardly become members of the special unit of the police.  I don't

13     think that they would have.

14        Q.   Many of these person are not members of the Jahorina recruits;

15     they're members of other detachment of the special police?

16        A.   You're right, there are some of those members; however, the list

17     that you have just shown me is not that.

18        Q.   Sir, the last question for you:  Mr. van Duijn testified that you

19     were in charge of the deportation.  He said you were in charge of the

20     separations.  He said you were in front of the white house with him.  He

21     said that you told him that prisoners wouldn't need IDs and passports

22     anymore.  And you denied all this, you disagree with every single point

23     van Duijn has made on these matters?

24        A.   I stated, as far as I can remember, and I repeated it earlier

25     today, that I was absolutely not involved in that kind of discussion with

Page 42109

 1     Mr. van Duijn.  I don't know whether he had that discussion with somebody

 2     else, it is quite possible, but it was not me and this was confirmed by a

 3     prosecutor witness before the court of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  He was an

 4     interpreter.  The only possible witness of that conversation.  He was the

 5     one who confirmed before the court that he did not interpret any such

 6     contents in a conversation between Mr. van Duijn and myself.

 7             MR. COSTI:  I don't have any other questions, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 9             Mr. Djuric, before Mr. Karadzic has some re-examination for you,

10     I have this question.  Shall we upload his witness statement D3903 before

11     the redaction.

12                           Questioned by the Court:

13             JUDGE KWON:  Do you remember having seen your statement on which

14     you signed, Mr. Djuric?  This is the first page --

15        A.   Yes.

16             JUDGE KWON:  -- and the last page.  This is your signature,

17     Mr. Djuric.

18        A.   Yes, yes.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Could you kindly read aloud paragraph 22.

20        A.   "This statement has been made at the request of the Defence team

21     of Radovan Karadzic and it contains information that they were interested

22     in.  This statement does not comprise all the aspects of all the

23     developments."

24             JUDGE KWON:  So I see three sentences there:  This was made at

25     the request of Mr. Karadzic's Defence team; it includes information that

Page 42110

 1     they are interested in; and it does not purport to be a comprehensive

 2     account of all the events.

 3             Could you explain to us what you meant by these paragraphs.

 4        A.   On the 26th of July, two days ago, I met with the Defence at

 5     their request, at the request of Mr. Karadzic and his legal advisor, or

 6     rather, legal representative.  We talked about my previous statements.

 7     They told me what they would be interested in and this is contained in my

 8     new statement, but this is a very concise summary.  That's why I accepted

 9     that the statement should include this paragraph, i.e., that this

10     statement does not contain all the aspects of the events because I

11     already testified before this Tribunal and before this court and the

12     court in Bosnia and Herzegovina and I had more to say.

13             JUDGE KWON:  What would you have added to your concise statement

14     when -- if it hadn't to be that concise?

15        A.   Well, it's difficult to answer for a simple reason.  The

16     statement that I provided is voluminous and it contains a lot more

17     answers to many more questions.  It contains a lot more details about

18     many more things.  The statement that I first provided was given on

19     200-plus pages, and also the transcript from the Popovic case when I

20     testified in 2007.  My testimony was over a period of one day and a half

21     or two days, so I spoke at much greater length.  And now after everything

22     that happened before the court of Bosnia and Herzegovina, I'm sure that

23     there would be even more to say, but I don't know whether that

24     information would be relevant for the case of Dr. Karadzic.  In any case,

25     what they were interested in was included in the statement that you have

Page 42111

 1     before you.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 4             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed, if you have any

 5     re-examination.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Excellencies.  The

 7     cross-examination was not long, but could it be corrected by listening to

 8     the tapes because the transcript is very wrong.  If I were promised that

 9     the tape would be listened to once again and the transcript after that is

10     corrected, then I would not have any more questions for the witness and

11     all that remains for me to say is to thank him for coming here to

12     testify.

13             JUDGE KWON:  I can't help you in vacuum at this moment.  They

14     will do the routine review process at the end of the hearing, and if

15     there's some translation issue you can raise it in writing, Mr. Karadzic.

16     Does it mean that you have no question for the witness?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes, Excellencies.  But I'm

18     concerned about the transcript.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Then that concludes your evidence,

20     Mr. Djuric.  I thank you for your coming to The Hague to give it.  Now

21     you're free to go.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23                           [The witness withdrew]

24             MR. STOJANOVIC: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours, I

25     would like to be excluded.

Page 42112

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you for your assistance, Mr. Stojanovic.

 2             MR. NICHOLLS:  Good morning, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls.

 4             MR. NICHOLLS:  It will take just a couple of minutes to

 5     re-arrange because I've got quite a lot of materials.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  I did notify by e-mail that the -- again, the

 8     issue of the path the re-direct is going to take I would like to be heard

 9     on, which should possibly be before the witness comes in.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Where are we in terms of the phase of the witness?

11     We are to hear the re-examination or your --

12             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, we're going to re-commence the

13     re-examination of General Keserovic.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, I have another issue related to

16     another witness that I would like to raise with the Chamber at this time.

17     So perhaps while Mr. Nicholls is moving we can do that.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE KWON:  While we are waiting for the courtroom setting to be

21     settled in again, I have one issue.  We'll issue an oral ruling.

22             This relates to the Prosecution's motion to augment

23     Exhibit P4995, filed on the 25th of July, 2013.  In the motion, the

24     Prosecution seeks to augment the expert report of Witness Dr. Ewa Tabeau,

25     admitted as P4995, with the complete text of a table that was only

Page 42113

 1     included in part in the original report.  Also on the 25th of July, 2013,

 2     the accused informed the Chamber via e-mail that he concurs with the

 3     motion and will not file a response.  The Chamber notes that P4995 only

 4     contains the first page of a five-page table and is thus satisfied that

 5     the remaining four pages of the table available in e-court under

 6     65 ter number 1D5517 shall be added to P4995.  The motion is thus

 7     granted.

 8             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  This relates to a witness

10     who's going to testify possibly tomorrow or Wednesday and that's

11     Franc Kos.  Mr. Kos is currently serving a sentence in Bosnia-Herzegovina

12     and arrived on Thursday, the 25th of July, at the United Nations

13     Detention Unit.  However, he has been kept in solitary confinement for

14     the entire duration of his stay here and we're concerned that he may not

15     be in a position -- in a shape to testify if that situation continues.  I

16     raised that with the commander of the Detention Unit on Friday when we

17     were there doing the proof, and his lawyer Slobodan Zecevic also took it

18     up with him, but they were not able to solve that problem with the

19     solitary confinement continues today I'm informed this morning.  So I

20     would ask that the Chamber inquire of the UNDU for the reasons for the

21     solitary confinement as the commander refused to share that with me and

22     to take steps to review whether or not that is necessary, so that when we

23     come to his testimony he's able to give it under good conditions.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Out of an abundance of caution, I would like to go

25     into private session briefly.

Page 42114

 1                           [Private session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 42115

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  But -- yes, Mr. Nicholls.

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honours.  And again, good morning.

 8     Before we move on, I just wanted to try to clarify what is going to

 9     happen next in the continuation of the re-examination.  Mr. Robinson sent

10     this e-mail that he copied the Trial Chamber staff on Friday morning of a

11     list of topics that he intends to go into or that Mr. Karadzic intends to

12     go into during the re-examination.  And five of those, in my submission,

13     are clearly outside the scope of what's permissible from -- as arising

14     from my cross-examination and do not arise from my cross-examination in

15     any normal sense of the word.

16             I did some very quick legal research on this, and I won't go

17     through the cases, but it's an established principle that goes well back

18     that the permissible questions to be asked on re-direct or re-examination

19     are those that arise out of the cross-examination.  That goes back to

20     1820 in a case I found in the UK and I won't go into the cases unless we

21     need to.  But I just want to be clear on what I see happening here and

22     why this is -- it would be a mistake to go down that road.

23             The Defence's only argument or ground to allow them to go through

24     this exercise is that the Prosecution asked factual questions of their

25     witness who was called as an expert.  And I frankly think it's a tactical

Page 42116

 1     decision and a rather cynical one.  Because first they chose to call

 2     Mr. Keserovic as an expert witness, even though his three prior

 3     testimonies before this Chamber have all been factual and based largely

 4     on his Srebrenica participation.  That may have been due to trying to

 5     avoid the appearance of calling as an expert witness somebody who was

 6     deeply involved in the conflict, the same thing that prevented him from

 7     being appointed as an investigator on this case.  But they've cited no

 8     law and that's probably because this doesn't come up.  Most times when

 9     somebody calls an expert who they want to say is impartial and objective,

10     it's not somebody who's been involved in exactly the subject matter of

11     their report.

12             And Mr. Robinson basically started to concede this point when we

13     were talking about it last Thursday at T42029.  He said:

14             "But we decided not to ..."

15             And then he stopped and said:

16             " ... it would not have been proper for us to elicit questions

17     from an expert witness."

18             And he said:

19             "So once his role in the facts of the case are open, then we

20     think it's a different situation, simply the scope of re-examination --

21     or re-direct examination for a fact witness -- for someone who is here as

22     a fact witness from the beginning ..."

23             And again, there's no legal basis for that because they could

24     have called him as a fact witness in direct from the beginning and

25     there's no basis that cross-examining him on his -- on factual issues

Page 42117

 1     somehow negates the normal rule of the proper scope of re-direct.

 2             And one thing I think is important is for Mr. Robinson's e-mail,

 3     and I think they will agree, that it appears clear that they spoke to

 4     Mr. Keserovic about what his testimony will be about Srebrenica events,

 5     that they essentially proofed him on what topics would be gone into on

 6     re-direct if the door was "opened" by me, because they said what he will

 7     say about reporting to the president, they will say -- they say what he

 8     will say about the practice of the VRS regarding identifications taken

 9     from prisoners.

10             So ...

11                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue.

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  So the practice they would like you to adopt is

14     that a party can adopt an expert who is also a participant and a fact

15     witness; proof that witness and speak to them about factual issues; and

16     then lead that new factual evidence without any constraints from the

17     normal scope of cross-examination simply because they listed the witness

18     as an expert.  And that would, in practice, force the opposing party to

19     decide whether to cross-examine on a pertinent factual issue, either one

20     that goes to credibility or one that advances the case, knowing that they

21     would thereby in theory open the door to an entirely new direct.  That

22     the basic rule is direct examination, cross-examination, re-direct, it's

23     not and it shouldn't be direct examination, cross-examination, re-direct,

24     direct, and then another cross, which is their proposal.

25             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry to intervene you, Mr. Nicholls.  To

Page 42118

 1     understand you correctly, you are not opposing to the Defence putting

 2     questions with respect to those that arose from your cross-examination?

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:  Not at all.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Mr. Nicholls.

 5             MR. NICHOLLS:  That's it, Your Honour.  I just think that that is

 6     what the limit should be.  Of course, everything to do with witness

 7     testimony and order is within your discretion, but it's a sound rule that

 8     re-examination is limited to clearing up and dealing with issues that

 9     arise directly on cross-examination, not - as they would have it - simply

10     due to the fact that the witness was originally called as an expert,

11     there's an exception that allows him to now go into any factual issue

12     they like.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

14             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  First of all, we take the

15     position that all of the proposed re-examination deals with matters that

16     arise from the direct, so that's one point.  And we could deal with that

17     on a point-by-point basis.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Just, let's pause there.

19             Mr. Nicholls, do you have any observation?

20             MR. NICHOLLS:  If that's their position, fine.  That's not what

21     was said last Thursday and I'll object to where I think they're going

22     beyond the scope and we can deal with it then.  I just wanted to make

23     sure before we advanced that we were, as I think Mr. Robinson now agrees,

24     we're continuing with the normal rule that their questions must arise out

25     of the cross.

Page 42119

 1             JUDGE KWON:  If that's the intention of the Defence, all this

 2     discussion may be moot.

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  That's our intention; however, if you find that

 4     something is beyond the scope, then we would still have the issue to

 5     determine as to whether or not we would be allowed to go beyond the

 6     scope.  But I think we can --

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  Well, that --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  There -- I see the point.

 9             MR. NICHOLLS:  That is the issue I would like now to resolve.

10     And if Mr. Robinson believed - and this is not any kind of a

11     criticism - if he believed that all of the questions on re-examination

12     were going to arise from the cross and would be within the scope, then

13     it's strange to send an e-mail of topics and thereby give "notice" of

14     what the cross will be about.  That's not usually done with

15     re-examination.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, I think the Chamber probably already realises

18     this, but notice was given so that in the event that any of the topics

19     were found to be outside of the scope of the cross-examination, the

20     Prosecution would have ample notice and time to prepare so that those

21     topics might still be led.

22             JUDGE KWON:  But if you like to respond to the general argument

23     in Mr. Nicholls' submission, it's time for you to do it -- to do that.

24             MR. ROBINSON:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25             Our position is that this is a situation that calls for a

Page 42120

 1     different rule than what is applicable to normal fact witnesses, and that

 2     is because we called this as an expert -- this witness as an expert, and

 3     as such we weren't allowed to go beyond that framework of expert

 4     testimony.  We could have decided to call him as a fact-plus-expert

 5     witness, but we didn't do that, so we decided to call him only as an

 6     expert.  Therefore, we were limited to not asking him questions about

 7     Srebrenica and that was a choice that we made.  And we told the

 8     Prosecution that if they were to go into that topic, we would expect to

 9     also address issues about Srebrenica that may or may not be within the

10     scope of their cross-examination.  And so they decided to go ahead and

11     ask questions about Srebrenica to attack the credibility of the witness

12     and also to advance their case.

13             Having done that, we believe that we're entitled to go beyond the

14     scope, the narrow scope, of cross-examination and have -- as if we had

15     now the first opportunity to question this witness on factual issues.  So

16     we believe that because of the fact that this is an expert witness as

17     opposed to a fact witness, that the rule has to be broader so that we can

18     now have the opportunity to examine him on factual matters that we didn't

19     otherwise have when he first testified.

20             JUDGE KWON:  You wanted to add anything, Mr. Nicholls?

21             MR. NICHOLLS:  Very briefly, Your Honour.  This is -- first you

22     will notice that there was no cite to any law or precedent because there

23     is none.  This is, I would say, a dangerous slippery slope of this

24     exception that Mr. Robinson or the Defence is now trying to create.  The

25     huge glaring flaw in his argument is that they were somehow precluded

Page 42121

 1     from asking the questions, factual questions, of the expert.  The only

 2     reason they were precluded is because, as he now says, it was their

 3     choice not to call him.  And if a party decides not to call a witness as

 4     a fact witness, they can't suddenly amend that.  That's the flaw.  That

 5     decision is not changed and should not be amended by my cross-examining

 6     the witnesses on issues that go to his credibility and advance our case

 7     that they know in advance there's a 99 per cent chance the witness will

 8     be cross-examined on, because he's testified about that three times

 9     before and it goes directly to his participation in the Srebrenica

10     events.

11             So his argument would be:  I can call an expert witness, not give

12     any notice of factual issues, knowing that that witness is likely going

13     to be crossed on factual issues, I can proof the witness on those factual

14     issues, and then when the Prosecution triggers it, I now -- all the rules

15     about my dead-line of August 27th, 2012, to -- or -- yeah, 2012, to turn

16     over material are out of the water.

17             Somehow the opposing party has to make the choice between

18     creating a new fact witness or not cross-examining on an issue that is

19     screaming to be cross-examined about.  So the logic is flawed, it

20     encourages a cynical tactical approach to calling witnesses.  And

21     finally, the notice Friday morning is not sufficient notice and it

22     doesn't fit with the practice and the Court's orders of how we are to be

23     told about what fact witnesses are going to testify about.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE KWON:  Simply, the Chamber agrees with Mr. Nicholls'

Page 42122

 1     observation.

 2             Shall we bring in the witness.

 3             While he's brought in, if you could advise Mr. Karadzic how to

 4     proceed.  If necessary, we will take a short break.

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  I think he's going to leave these questions to the

 6     end.  So we can maybe go ahead --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  -- and take a break when we get to that point or

 9     we may reach lunch hour then anyway.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

11                           [The witness takes the stand]

12             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, General.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, today we'll hear Mr. Karadzic's re-examination.

15             Please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

16                           WITNESS:  DRAGOMIR KESEROVIC [Resumed]

17                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

18                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, General.

20        A.   Good day.

21        Q.   You were asked during the cross-examination about the return of

22     the 6th Sana Brigade, about what happened before the war broke out in

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina itself.  In your view, when did tensions start

24     mounting and was this rightly assessed in the reports of Mr. Brown?

25        A.   Tensions started during the first spring months already in 1992,

Page 42123

 1     although one could conclude, or rather see, from documents that some

 2     activities that were aimed at disrupting these inter-ethnic relations

 3     started already in 1991 through the illegal arming and the organisation

 4     of paramilitaries.  In his report, Mr. Brown states that non-Serbs also

 5     obtained weapons and that they tried, as he says, to organise themselves

 6     militarily.  However, he does not give due attention to all these

 7     activities, or rather, through his report in some way he minimises all of

 8     those activities, or rather, he believes that that is something small,

 9     sporadic, et cetera.  So already in the first spring months of 1992, we

10     have an increase in tensions in the areas of all municipalities,

11     Sanski Most included.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have in e-court

14     1D9328.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, we are unable to locate the

16     document under this number.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we continue without the document,

18     Mr. Karadzic?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.  This is a document from

20     1991.  I would like to have it displayed.  And could we now have 1D9329.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   The 6th Sana Brigade, what kind of situation did they find, say,

23     in Sanski Most upon their return from the front line in Croatia?  Was it

24     idyllic or were there problems there as well?

25        A.   Well, the situation was not good.  Inter-ethnic relations were

Page 42124

 1     strained.  Previously we analysed a document that indicates that there

 2     was a different mood in the ethnic communities in relation to the return

 3     of the 6th Sana Brigade.  So problems were on the rise, tensions were on

 4     the rise, and there were many differences and it was hard to resolve

 5     them.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, there seems to be some problem with

 7     respect to the publication of those documents.  The Registry can't locate

 8     those documents yet.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  We'll go back to that.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   General, sir, Mr. Brown, did he establish and rightly assess and

12     did you assess whether the army and police of Republika Srpska attacked

13     innocent, unarmed civilians there or was there a military formation there

14     of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

15        A.   There were formations, military formations, armed formations

16     there, of non-Serbs or basically Muslims.  And they were asked to disarm,

17     or rather, to return their illegal weapons and to continue to participate

18     and resolve all disputes, or rather, to seek a political solution.  I did

19     not find any documents that in any way allowed or instigated or approved

20     of attacks against the innocent population or any documents that

21     indicated that pressure was brought to bear, that the population was

22     under duress and that they had to leave the area.  That is to say that

23     the objective of attacks were military formations, or rather,

24     paramilitary formations and disarmament.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you, General, sir.

Page 42125

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D4282, could we please have that

 2     now.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   General, sir --

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we enlarge the Serbian

 6     version.  I hope that there is a translation.  Yes, there is.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   So this is a document of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the

 9     staff of the Supreme Command, dated the 10th of September, 1992.  And

10     they're addressing the Una Sana Operations Group there.  Did you know

11     that this existed, or rather, which municipalities did it include?

12        A.   The Una Sana Operations Group included the municipalities in the

13     valley of the Sana river, Kljuc, Sanski Most, Prijedor, and

14     municipalities on the Una, down there from Kulin Vakov, Bihac, Krupa, and

15     Bosanski Novi or Novi Grad.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Could you now please focus on the second part of the

17     first paragraph.  It says:

18             "I was even in a position to alert the government organs in that

19     region that armed combat was being obstructed since they waited rather

20     long.  And while war was raging in all of the republic of

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina, in this region they were still negotiating with the

22     aggressor."

23             Did Mr. Brown take this document into account and did he explain

24     why in the Una Sana area the war started raging only after the 20th of

25     May?

Page 42126

 1        A.   He did not analyse this in particular.  As for municipal

 2     developments, for the most part he found the perpetrator to be on the

 3     Serb side.  Allegedly they used small municipal incidents for all-out

 4     attacks and non-selective attacks, indiscriminate attacks against the

 5     civilian population inter alia.  So he did not place into a context the

 6     efforts that were made to find a solution by way of negotiations, or

 7     rather, by peaceful means.

 8        Q.   Thank you, General, sir.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted?

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D4282 receives number D3904,

12     Your Honours.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             Could we now take a look at 1D9328.  I believe that now it is

15     possible.  If it's not translated, I'm going to ask you to help us with a

16     few paragraphs.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Could you please take a look and tell the Trial Chamber what this

19     document is.

20        A.   This document is a report from a meeting of the professional

21     council of the security services centre of Banja Luka, where there was a

22     discussion about the current security situation in the territory of the

23     centre, that is to say the Krajina, and also information was provided

24     about the mobilisation that was carried out.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us when this was held and can you see

Page 42127

 1     among the participants any Muslims who were heads of public security

 2     stations, for instance?

 3        A.   Yes.  This is July, the 25th of July, 1991, that is to say a lot

 4     before the conflict broke out.  We see here that Senad Dizdar is

 5     participating who is the chief from Jajce.  He is of Muslim ethnicity.

 6     He was chief down there.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Who's the first one on top?

11        A.   Mr. Hadziselimovic was in the encryption department and

12     communications department, that is to say he was head of the department

13     for communications and encryption.

14        Q.   In a word, this is a joint MUP?

15        A.   Yes, at the time that was a joint MUP in Bosnia-Herzegovina and

16     thereby in the services centre in Banja Luka.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I see Mr. Nicholls on his feet.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

19             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, sorry, no objection.  I've just received an

20     e-mail that there's a translation of this document under L0072838 is the

21     ERN if it helps.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, when we could locate it, we'll use it, but in

23     the meantime shall we continue.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you for this kind assistance.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 42128

 1        Q.   General, sir, as for these conclusions, can you tell us about the

 2     first paragraph in your own words?

 3        A.   The meeting resulted in a conclusion to the effect that the

 4     security situation is rapidly deteriorating in the territory of the

 5     centre and it is assuming the proportions of a state of war.

 6        Q.   Can you explain where this dramatic deterioration is taking

 7     place?

 8        A.   The municipalities are the border municipalities with the

 9     Republic of Croatia; that is to say, Bosanski Novi, Dubica, Gradiska, and

10     Srbac.  All of these are on the border; that is to say, the border

11     towards the Republic of Croatia.

12        Q.   Thank you.  In the second paragraph here, for example, line 5

13     says:

14             "There are frequent exchanges of gun-fire every day between the

15     members of the special units of the MUP of Croatia, the members of the

16     National Guards Corps vis-a-vis the settlements along the Una and Sana in

17     the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, an increased concentration of all

18     categories of armed uniformed persons in the border areas of Croatia,

19     especially on the most frequent bridges."

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We were doing a cite

21     translation.  We did not hear the question put by Mr. Karadzic.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, interpreters were not able to hear

23     your question, Mr. Karadzic.

24             They translated the citation, but your question ...

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 42129

 1        Q.   General, sir, this situation that is described here from July

 2     1991, how was it reflected in Mr. Brown's analysis?  Was it taken into

 3     account and was it sufficiently appraised?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Before you answer.

 5             Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

 6             MR. NICHOLLS:  No objection, just a suggestion.  It's more

 7     helpful, I think, to cite Mr. Brown's testimony or report when talking

 8     about the parts that this testimony is in theory going to rebut.  Just a

 9     suggestion because otherwise we need to look through the report to find

10     exactly where this goes to.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Indeed that would be helpful when done

12     either by the Defence, otherwise by the witness.

13             Shall we continue this time?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I shall try and say that.  It is in

15     the part that deals with the return of units from the territory of

16     Croatia into the municipalities of the Bosnian Krajina.  Here, in his

17     findings, Mr. Brown did not in my view pay sufficient attention to the

18     broader or external context of events and circumstances that lead to the

19     spillover of conflicts and tensions from the Republic of Croatia into

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Because we see that already in 1991 a danger was

21     identified, namely, that these developments could spillover into the

22     neighbouring Bosnia-Herzegovina.  So when Mr. Brown speaks about these

23     units, he is just moving them from this zone where they were used in

24     Croatia into Bosnia-Herzegovina, but he does not deal with the transfer,

25     or rather, the effect of what was happening in Croatia on

Page 42130

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  He just touches upon that briefly and then transfers

 2     units from one zone into another.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have the next page now,

 6     please.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   The Prosecution challenged your position that the

 9     1st Krajina Corps and the authorities had a different attitude towards

10     armed Serbs than armed Muslims and Croats.  And they say that they were

11     not prosecuted, I mean armed Serbs, as much as others were.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I have the next page, please.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  We have a small technical problem.  Just a

14     second.  I apologise.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   While we're waiting, General, where were you at the time and what

17     insight did you have?  I don't mean as a fact witness but as an expert.

18     Were you familiar with this aspect of life in the Krajina?

19        A.   At that time in 1991, I was commander of the military police

20     battalion of the 3rd Military District and I was leaving for the

21     General Staff academy of the JNA in Belgrade for training.  My family

22     stayed in the Krajina and those summer months before open armed conflict

23     broke out in Croatia, I stayed in Banja Luka, that is, in my place of

24     birth, between Banja Luka and Prijedor.  I was in that area and

25     throughout that time I was in a position to see and live through

Page 42131

 1     everything and know how people lived.

 2        Q.   Please focus on the last paragraph and do recount it.  It says

 3     here that a group from Knin returned to Prnjavor and so on.  Who were

 4     these persons?  To which ethnicity did they belong?  Who are being

 5     criticised here and of whom it's said that they committed crimes?

 6        A.   This doubtlessly for the most part refers to forces or some

 7     groups that until then had been active in the Republic of Srpska Krajina.

 8     It says here that they were members of Martic's unit.

 9        Q.   They are individuals with a criminal record; right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Are the ones mentioned in the last paragraph Serbs?

12        A.   Probably they are.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I seek to tender the document.

14             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification, pending English

15     translation -- just a second.

16             Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

17             MR. NICHOLLS:  No objection.  I just apologise.  I made a mistake

18     before when I said it was translated.  I'm sorry.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, it was a different one.  Yes.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D9328 receives number D3905,

21     Your Honours.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Marked for identification.  Yes.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we now get 1D9329.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Did you establish when the 9th Sana Brigade returned to

Page 42132

 1     Sanski Most?

 2        A.   I don't have the relevant documents on me, but I believe they

 3     returned in early April 1992.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Please take a look at what the radio station and the

 5     public security station of Sanski Most were reporting about on the 6th of

 6     December, 1991.  Maybe you can -- we can focus on these bullet points.

 7     Four explosions in Serbian-owned businesses are mentioned here.  Please

 8     recount this to us, give us a summary.

 9        A.   This is a report of the public security station of Sanski Most.

10     Events are listed in chronological order that led up to attacks against

11     property owned by Serbs.  They mention nine cases here and each

12     individual case is being described in detail including the persons

13     involved and the items involved.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Next page, please.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Here Muslim-owned property is also mentioned.  We see these

17     names:  Mirnes Dzafic, Kaliman Kalic [phoen].  Are these Muslim names?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Then we see Nusret Ibrisagic --

20             JUDGE KWON:  Difficult to follow.

21             Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

22             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry to interrupt.  Just -- I'm not clear on what

23     we're looking at.  It's a MUP report or it's something to do with the

24     radio?  And they were both mentioned in the question.  It's a radio

25     report of a police report or just what are we looking at?

Page 42133

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we see the first page again.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   General, do tell us what this is.

 4        A.   It's a report of the public security station of Sanski Most which

 5     was distributed to the media so that the public knows what is happening

 6     in the municipality in order to prevent similar events.

 7        Q.   On the second page we read the following names:  Hajrudin Alagic,

 8     what could his ethnicity be?

 9        A.   Bosniak, Muslim.

10        Q.   Natasa Sijan?

11        A.   Sijan could be a Croatian family name, but based on the first

12     name we could also suppose she was a Serbian woman.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And let's go to the last page.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   We see in the second paragraph that in two cases persons of

17     Serbian ethnicity and three cases of Croatian ethnicity and four Muslim

18     ethnicity are involved, which leads to a conclusion that the motives most

19     probably are not ethnically -- of ethnic nature.  How did you understand

20     the statements and the acts of the Crisis Staff members, for example,

21     Mr. Posara [phoen] in the context of these events?

22        A.   Mr. Ewan Brown never dealt with these events in 1991.  If he did,

23     then he only linked it to some activities of the Serbs in a casual

24     manner.  Efforts were made to overcome differences peacefully.  There

25     were people who understood what this was leading and that there would be

Page 42134

 1     an escalation involving uncontrolled behaviour in the area leading to

 2     open conflict which eventually did happen.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D9329 receives number D3906,

 6     Your Honours, MFI.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   General, we're still dealing with the allegation of the

 9     Prosecution that you wrongly established that the authorities were

10     lenient towards the armed Serbs.  Let us look at document 25861.

11             While we're waiting, you were interrupted, General, when you

12     spoke about the establishment of Serbian defence forces or whatever they

13     were called in the Krajina.  What did you mean by that?

14        A.   The Law on All People's Defence included an obligation of the

15     municipalities to actively take part in efforts and integrate the efforts

16     of all stakeholders in order to face the current problems in a context of

17     imminent threat of war or war time.  Given the problems that existed,

18     Serbian defence forces were organised.  They were not special formations,

19     specially created for that purpose, because there was the

20     Territorial Defence already and there were municipal staffs of All

21     People's Defence and Territorial Defence.  All these units were

22     integrated to try to cope with the situation.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Please explain to the Trial Chamber what this

24     document is and what the ethnicity of this detained person mentioned in

25     lines 1 and 2 was?

Page 42135

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

 2             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry to interrupt, just -- I didn't want to

 3     interrupt the question and answer, but just for some precision to know

 4     what we're talking about, at 68, line 7, when Mr. Karadzic spoke about

 5     the establishment of "Serbian defence forces or whatever they were

 6     called," are we talking about the SOS or just Serbian defence forces

 7     meaning everything, TO?  I don't know what he's talking about.  There is

 8     a -- SOS is Serbian defence forces, that's what I asked him about, in

 9     Sanski Most.  I just want to know if that's what we're talking about

10     because he said "whatever they're called."

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I will clarify.  This

12     document mostly deals with renegades and Serbian elements that were out

13     of control, and we'll get to the SOS.  They were present in Banja Luka

14     and at Sanski Most and then we'll see what the General found in the

15     documents.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Please tell us now what this document is and who this first

18     detained person was and then we'll move on.

19        A.   This is an official note about the placing in detention of a Serb

20     who assumed the right to take care of some matters at a check-point.  He

21     was implementing some rules of his own in the area.  The MUP or actually

22     the SUP was -- the SUP reacted and placed him in detention because he was

23     breaking the rules that were in force in the area.

24        Q.   In line 14 we see a certain Serb was not recorded because you

25     said "Serb," didn't you?

Page 42136

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Please read out the last-but-one paragraph starting with Lukac

 3     states.  Can you read it out aloud.

 4        A.   "Lukac states that this is about a group that was kicked out of

 5     the 6th Krajina Brigade and they procured weapons for themselves, rifles,

 6     pistols, Zoljas, and Osas, and they also have a hand-held

 7     rocket-launcher.  With another group that was at Podlug, whereas these

 8     one were at Sivlik [phoen], at the check-point they started shooting

 9     together so that there was shooting from all around.  And Solvi [phoen]

10     with his group shot -- fired at a mosque from a hand-held

11     rocket-launcher.  The same group is in possession of a significant amount

12     of explosives too."

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

14             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry, again, we've just sent a translation to the

15     Defence.  If Mr. Karadzic wants to bring it up and use it.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  That's kind.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   General, what kind of attitude prevailed against Serbian

19     renegades or armed Serbs who were not members of official forces?

20        A.   This is a document which shows that the authorities, which is in

21     this specific case the police, acted against those who were in possession

22     of illegal weapons irrespective of their ethnicity.  These persons here

23     are Serbs.  They were kicked out of the brigade because they were

24     undisciplined, they procured weapons, but they were being arrested.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 42137

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

 2     document.  Now we also have a translation by courtesy of Mr. Nicholls.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Can you also confirm the date?

 5        A.   The 2nd of August, 1992.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  We didn't have the time to confirm that that is the

 7     translation, but I take the words from the Prosecution.  We'll admit it.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D25861 receives number D3907,

 9     Your Honours.

10             JUDGE KWON:  I take it you had no objection to the admission of

11     this document?

12             MR. NICHOLLS:  No, Your Honour.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Given the time, Mr. Karadzic, shall we have a break?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

15             JUDGE KWON:  We'll resume at quarter past 1.00.

16                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 1.20 p.m.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

19             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Before we commence, can I

20     make or address a quick housekeeping matter.  On the 17th of July, the

21     Trial Chamber asked the -- or ordered the Office of the Prosecutor to

22     liaise with the Rule 70 provider.  I'm having some difficulty reaching

23     the contact person -- not technically but in a manner that allows for

24     meaningful discussion because that person is actually on the road.  If we

25     could have an extension until Friday, I'm optimistic that I could make

Page 42138

 1     the requisite contact and of course if we're able to do so sooner, we'll

 2     file sooner.  And, Mr. President, I spoke with Mr. Robinson and he agrees

 3     with that and he has no objection.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Fair enough.  It will be so extended, Mr. Tieger.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   General, sir, you were shown diaries, or rather, diary entries

11     made by Rasula, perhaps Vrkes, Anicic, Vrucinic, and some others, and you

12     didn't agree that their attitude towards Muslims and Croats was

13     discriminatory.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's look at 65 ter 20382.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

16             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry, I'm not trying to interrupt, just it may

17     have been a translation, but just for precision with the transcript.  The

18     diary entries were by two persons, Rasula and Davidovic.  There were no

19     diary entries made by Vrkes, Anicic, and Vrucinic.  Only two diaries.  So

20     whatever entries weren't made by those other people.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I could agree.  However, those

22     people were mentioned as authors of orders and so on and so forth.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   General, sir, please look at the document in front of you.  The

25     executive Executive Board and its emergency session of 10 November 1992,

Page 42139

 1     and then you see the names of the people who attended the meetings, the

 2     most responsible people in the municipality; right?

 3        A.   Yes, these are the most responsible people in the municipality.

 4     Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  In the Serbian language I'm interested in the

 6     following page, paragraph 5.  I believe that the English page can stay as

 7     is.  Could you please tell us how this tallies with what you know.  It

 8     says here together with the 6th Krajina Brigade Command, the police are

 9     instructed to launch a joint effort to disarm persons who carry arms and

10     who are not members of the brigade.  Does this apply to the Serbs?  Who

11     was allowed to carry arms without being a member of the 6th Sana Brigade

12     or had been members and left it?

13        A.   From the very beginning the position was to disarm all those who

14     had weapons and were not members of the legal forces, i.e., units or the

15     brigade or the police.  Here I suppose that this applies to the Serbs who

16     had weapons and were prone to committing various crimes.  An order was

17     issued for these arms to be confiscated, although in the paragraph itself

18     this is not expressly mentioned, ethnic affiliation is not mentioned.

19     When orders were issued to disarm people, there was never segregation

20     according to ethnicity.  The order usually or always applied across the

21     board to all those who had weapons and were not members of legal armed

22     forces.  Given the author of the document, I'm sure that this applies to

23     the Serbs.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we scroll up a little, that's

Page 42140

 1     for the Serbian page and in English can we go to the following page

 2     because I'm interested in paragraph 12.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Could you please tell us what is ordered by paragraph 12?

 5        A.   Obviously attempts were made to enable the functioning of the

 6     local community, i.e., the municipality.  As far as possible an order is

 7     issued to set up a work unit or a work brigade because the Muslims and

 8     Croats mostly had work obligation.  All the citizens were to be allowed

 9     to participate in winter sowing, i.e., they were to be allowed to

10     complete the winter sowing of winter crops.  This is part of the regular,

11     everyday life of the population.  The times were hard and there was need

12     to sow the crops in order to be able to harvest later on.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go to the following page in

14     Serbian and can we scroll up the English page.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Look at paragraph 16 and tell us what it means.  Are

17     representatives of the Muslim community among these names?

18        A.   Paragraph 16 is the appointment of a committee for the

19     distribution of humanitarian aid in the municipality.  A certain

20     Husnija Alagic, who was a Muslim, was appointed as one of the members of

21     the team.

22        Q.   And who signed this?

23        A.   The then-president of the Executive Council, Mr. Vlado Vrkes.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

Page 42141

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D3908, Your Honours.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And now can we look at 65 ter 4223.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Can you tell the Trial Chamber what this document is and when it

 6     was issued.

 7        A.   This was issued on the 6th of December, 1992.  It is a combat

 8     report by the command of the 1st Krajina Corps to the Main Staff of the

 9     army.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Look at the last sentence describing the losses.

11        A.   Four dead and 15 wounded, of who two seriously wounded and 13

12     slightly wounded.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go to the following page,

15     both in Serbian and in English.  I'm interested in paragraph 5.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   What was the attitude towards killings and crimes in the Krajina

18     Corps?  Your position was that it was objective and that everything was

19     done by the book.  Can you please tell us what is described in paragraph

20     5 under the title "unusual incidents"?  Can you first read and then can

21     you give us a short account.

22        A.   Yes.  I've seen this document before.  The paragraph describes

23     some places within the municipality of Sanski Most where killings

24     happened.  Seven people of Croatian origin were killed and one was

25     wounded.  Among the killed were also some women.  Two civilians were from

Page 42142

 1     Sasina, they were killed at Tomasici and in Sasina.  This is a report

 2     about the perpetrators of the crime who were motivated by revenge as

 3     assumed.  This man, Gvozden, who was a member of their group, had a

 4     brother killed a few days before.  The corps command reports that the

 5     investigation was under way and that as soon as the perpetrators were

 6     identified measures would be taken against them and a report on that

 7     would follow.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  D3910, Your Honours.  [Microphone not activated].

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And not a similar --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second --

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, D3909.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D9327 describes a similar if not

17     the same case; however, the dates are different.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   I believe that you were asked about a crime that was committed by

20     Danilusko Kajtez; right?

21        A.   Yes, I heard about that.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to call up 1D9327.

23                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24             JUDGE KWON:  Could you check the number again.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D9327.

Page 42143

 1             JUDGE KWON:  We seem to have a problem again.

 2                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 3             JUDGE KWON:  It hasn't been released.

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  We'll work on that.  Thank you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, here it is.  Here we have it.

 6     This is the document.  Can we zoom in.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Could you please tell the Trial Chamber something about this

 9     report.

10        A.   This is information about multiple killings and those happened in

11     the villages of Skrljevita and Kijevo.  The victims of those crimes are

12     described as well as the way those people were murdered by unknown males,

13     as it is stated in here.  In the first case which happened in Skrljevita,

14     it is Croats who were killed, whereas in Kijevo the persons who were

15     killed were two females who were of Muslim ethnicity.  They were also

16     killed by persons wearing uniforms.  And it was assumed that the killings

17     were committed by a Serb, Lazar Ristic.

18        Q.   Could you please look at line 9 where it says Grgo Stojic who

19     stayed alive, and a bit further down it says that three persons wore

20     uniforms and one was in civilian clothes.  They all had weapons.  He

21     didn't recognise them but was able to provide a description of those

22     lads.  On that day, Croats from the village of Skrljevita went to the

23     green market.  It was a Monday and so on and so forth.

24             Did you know that Croats lived in those villages and that they

25     had their teachers, that they had telephone lines, that they remained

Page 42144

 1     living there?

 2        A.   Yes.  Croats were mostly not involved in the conflict in a

 3     majority of the municipalities including Sanski Most.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  You were asked why Danilusko Kajtez was tried after

 5     the war.  Based on what criminal reports were trials organised after the

 6     war?  According to what you know, when were those criminal reports

 7     prepared and based on what information?

 8        A.   According to documents, the investigation against Kajtez was

 9     carried out immediately after the crimes happened, after the murders he

10     had committed.  The proceedings were launched against him.  War crimes

11     and similar crimes do not have a statute of limitations.  I suppose that

12     the general conditions under which the judiciary bodies worked at the

13     time contributed to the fact that the proceedings were completed only

14     after the end of the war.

15        Q.   Thank you.  According to what you found in the documents and what

16     you know, can a trial go on if the only eye-witness is not available to

17     the court?  What is done in such cases?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

19             I'm not sure this is a question for the witness.

20             Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

21             MR. NICHOLLS:  That would have been my second objection.  The

22     first one is Kajtez was not tried, charged, anything with -- or later

23     perhaps, but he was not charged with war crimes.  He was charged with

24     murder during the events.  And I would like to know what document we're

25     looking at on the screen which hasn't been said yet, what it's from and

Page 42145

 1     what it is.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see the ERN number

 3     further down.  I received this from the documents that the Prosecution

 4     has available.  Could we zoom out so that we see the ERN number.  Yes,

 5     yes, here it is and the number down there is correct too.  So probably

 6     there are a few more pages, but I haven't received them.

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  My understanding is that this is an AID document,

 8     a Muslim investigation document.  I don't know if this is being purported

 9     to be some kind of contemporaneous police report because I don't think it

10     is.  I'd need to check more on what it is on my feet, but I don't know

11     what the representation is that this document is.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If it's not acceptable then I will

13     withdraw it, but I believe it will be of assistance and I also believe

14     that it's a Serb document.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Let us continue when you have some more -- better

16     evidence.  We can come back to that.  Yes.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   General, sir, were Serbs duty-bound to respond to mobilisation?

20     Were Muslims and Croats called up and did they have the same kind of

21     obligation, or did they decide of their own free will?

22        A.   According to federal laws that were in force all the way up until

23     the withdrawal of the JNA from Bosnia-Herzegovina, all were duty-bound to

24     respond to mobilisation according to the mobilisation schedule and to

25     participate in all situations, exercises, and in war.

Page 42146

 1        Q.   During the war did we require Muslims and Croats to join the VRS?

 2        A.   No.  They were not duty-bound to join the Army of

 3     Republika Srpska, but at one's personal request some of them did join the

 4     VRS.  There were even entire units, Muslim units, in the Army of

 5     Republika Srpska.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 65 ter 4868.  Let us

 8     see how the municipality of Sanski Most that is being dealt with in these

 9     two expert reports, your own and Brown's -- actually, 65 ter 4868.  Thank

10     you.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   This is a report on the work of the Sanski Most Ministry of

13     Defence department for the first three months of 1993.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have -- actually, could we

15     have the next page now, Juta Pazula [phoen] -- Pakula [phoen] is

16     verifying this, authenticating this.  Can we have the next page now.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Help us with this, General, what does it say here that according

19     to records, how many recruits were called up, Serbs, Croats, Muslims, and

20     how many responded?  Those are the first two tables that you have here.

21        A.   We see that this right was exercised, that is to say that they

22     were all called up to respond.  However, this second table, this survey,

23     shows that in most cases it was Serbs who responded.  And the number of

24     Muslims and Croats is minimal.

25        Q.   Thank you.  These Croats and Muslims who did not respond, were

Page 42147

 1     they sanctioned in any way and would Serbs who would not respond be

 2     sanctioned?

 3        A.   Muslims and Croats at the time, that is to say throughout the

 4     war, were not sanctioned for not responding to recruitment or being sent

 5     for military training.  These are recruits that are referred to.  Serbs

 6     would be sanctioned through the military police.  For the most part, they

 7     would be brought in and sent to do their military service.  They were

 8     duty-bound to do so.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have the fifth page in

11     Serbian from this one.  So count four and that would be what we need, and

12     in English it's probably going to be the next one or two further ahead.

13     Paragraph 3.  Yes, we have it in Serbian.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

15        Q.   Could you please look at paragraph 3, the second sentence,

16     also --

17        A.   Units for work obligation of Muslims and Croats have been formed

18     in the area of town and three platoons with a total of 58 members and two

19     platoons with 45 members in Majdan.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Was work obligation compulsory for Serbs who were

21     unfit for combat?

22        A.   Yes, work obligation is a general obligation.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 42148

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D3910, Your Honours.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we now have

 3     65 ter 5120.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Could you just tell us what this document is from July 1992.

 6        A.   This is a biannual report of the public security station from

 7     Sanski Most, and it's sent to the security services centre in Banja Luka.

 8     It has to do with their work during the first six months.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page, please,

11     I believe that it's the second page in English.  The third one in

12     Serbian.  Yes, if you could just set it right and zoom in a bit.  In

13     English it's probably the second page.  Just a moment, please.  Yes.  In

14     the second quarter, it's the third one from above.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Can you tell us about this second quarter?  Why was a state of

17     emergency proclaimed or declared?

18        A.   There was combat, JNA units, or rather, the Serb army units

19     against Muslim formations.  So the work of the public security station

20     was conducted under quite different conditions, or rather, war time

21     conditions, which were reflected in the fact that policemen were called

22     upon to disarm people, search, and mop-up the terrain, protect facilities

23     and institutions of vital importance, maintain public law and order, and

24     bring in and interview extremists and members of paramilitary units who

25     had taken part in the fighting.

Page 42149

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We can keep this page in English

 3     but could we have the next one in Serbian.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   In the second paragraph in English it says the different

 6     interests of the above-mention parties.  And in Serbian it is the fourth

 7     line in the second paragraph, loss of control and the right to look into

 8     some undesirable and unlawful conduct.  How did this affect the

 9     situation, was this noted by you and Brown, your reports?  What kind of

10     effect did loss of control have, loss of control over processes?

11        A.   Loss of control over developments and processes means the

12     generation, or rather, the increase literally of chaos, an increase in

13     problems, creating conditions whereby the situation can be kept under

14     control with great difficulty in everyday situations.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have the next page,

17     please, both versions.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   This last paragraph in the Serbian version, now I will try to

20     identify it in English.  Could you take a look at this, yes.

21     [In English] Order, situation.

22             And here there's the last paragraph, can you just take a look at

23     this and what the police is saying, why they could not control processes

24     and which are the villages that they are mentioning as places where it

25     was impossible to establish law and order?

Page 42150

 1        A.   The chief is reporting here that in the villages of Vrhpolje,

 2     Hrustovo, Domisevici, Okros - now what is this, Modra? - and some other

 3     locations, that there were activities there in that area and conflicts

 4     with the Green Berets, or rather, armed formations of the Muslims, and

 5     the police did not manage to exercise full control there in the area of

 6     public law and order because they, or rather, the Muslim forces have this

 7     area under their control.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  In English it is the penultimate paragraph, "it is

 9     important to note ..." thank you.

10             So now let us go two pages ahead in Serbian.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Another one, another one, please.

12     Page 5 in English.  [In English] "Most of the work ..." [Interpretation]

13     That's the required part in English on the fifth page.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Please take a look at this paragraph.  These 11 rifles and then

16     other hunting rifles, pistols, et cetera.  What -- who was this taken

17     away from?  Actually, it says "much of the work."

18        A.   Yes.  It is stated here that in this period, and now all of this

19     is being listed in terms of quarters, a certain number of weapons of all

20     kinds were taken away; that is to say, hunting weapons and pistols.  But

21     also we see some military rifles there as well.  So they were taken away

22     from all of those who possess them illegally or unlawfully.

23        Q.   Is there a differentiation there in terms of the ethnic

24     background of these different citizens?

25        A.   No, no.  This is information that provides the total of persons

Page 42151

 1     from whom these weapons were taken.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we go one page ahead in

 4     Serbian, then another one -- actually, page 6 in Serbian.  Page 7 in

 5     English.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Here there is a description of a critical period and of some

 8     critical events.  The third paragraph in English -- or actually the

 9     fourth one in English, "in the second quarter ..."

10             What happened there?  How many persons were brought in?  How many

11     persons were released and how many persons were kept in custody?

12        A.   This is a report about a different line of work that the police

13     are involved in.  We had public law and order first, and now we have

14     operative work which continued in different groups; that is to say, where

15     there was grouping, where certain groups are being established.  And,

16     quite simply, there is discovery, or rather, there is work with persons

17     who figured prominently in a negative sense in terms of how they acted.

18     1.030 persons were brought into custody during that period by the service

19     and 811 of them were dealt with and currently 219 were being processed.

20     So after they were processed some of them were released, whereas this

21     other part, that is to say those who were assumed to have participated in

22     combat or who were suspected of having done that, it's the majority of

23     them, about 150 [as interpreted], they were transported, or rather --

24     actually, they were taken to the POW camp in Manjaca.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Please note that in the translation these 130 were

Page 42152

 1     allowed to go home, home, and you were asked why they were not allowed to

 2     go home.  Was it possible for them --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second --

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] --

 5        Q.   -- to be released while they were in Sanski Most?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Before we continue.

 7             Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

 8             MR. NICHOLLS:  Just, I don't know if it's a translation issue.

 9     It was read out -- sorry.

10             "... whereas this other part, that is to say those who were

11     assumed to have participated in combat or were suspected of having done

12     that."

13             That's not what the document we just read from said.  It says:

14             "About 850 individuals who had taken part in combat operations or

15     had fled from places where combat operations were being conducted ..."

16             So just what the witness read out doesn't match what we have in

17     English.  I don't know if there's an error there.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I heard the witness say 850 -- 811.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   But can you start reading from "Of the 1.030 ..."

21        A.   "Of the 1.030 individuals brought in by this service and other

22     organs (the army, the TO), 811 individuals were processed and 219

23     individuals are still undergoing this procedure.  On completion of this

24     process, 130 individuals were released, while 850 individuals who had

25     taken part in combat operations or had fled from places where combat

Page 42153

 1     operations were being conducted are now at the Manjaca camp, where the

 2     operatives and national security employees who are processing the

 3     above-mentioned individuals also go."

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell me where these 130 individuals were

 5     released to?

 6        A.   They were let go home, to Sanski Most.

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  Okay.  Well, excuse me, it was represented before

 8     that that's what the document said and is the witness now saying it says

 9     that or just that he knows it from something not in the document?

10             JUDGE KWON:  While following this exercise, I was struggling

11     how -- where we are going.  The witness is just reading out the documents

12     and then now he adds something.  If you could assist us, Mr. Karadzic.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellency, in the English

14     translation the words "released to go home" has been omitted.  It is

15     there in the English and people were not just let go at Manjaca to roam

16     about, but they were taken home.  So this word "home" is important.  It

17     isn't simply released.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Do you confirm what Mr. Karadzic said,

19     Mr. Keserovic?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the document reads "released

21     to go home," that's what the document says in Serbian or B/C/S, if you

22     will.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

24             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can this be admitted?

Page 42154

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, Exhibit D3911.  Thank you.

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry, just for the record it's cited at footnote

 4     85 -- 584 in Mr. Brown's report.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now get 1D4217.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   A short while ago it was said that the investigators are also

 9     going to Manjaca to help out with the investigations.  Please tell us

10     what this document dated 2 July is.

11        A.   This is a daily report of the operative team from the POW camp of

12     Manjaca.  It speaks about 18 POWs from Kljuc and Sanski Most being

13     processed on that day.  They say that the persons from Kljuc are nearing

14     the end of their processing and that the process will be continued.

15        Q.   Thank you.  And this following paragraph about Sanski Most?

16        A.   On that day the processing of persons from the Sanski Most

17     municipality began for which purpose three operatives from the public

18     security station of that municipality have arrived.

19        Q.   How does Mr. Brown's report and your report respectively, how do

20     they assess placing people at Manjaca camp?

21        A.   Mr. Brown said himself that the Manjaca camp had been established

22     earlier by the JNA and that persons were taken there.  What was pointed

23     out, what he lays special emphasis on, was the fact that the people at

24     Manjaca were simply picked up after some municipal attacks and taken to

25     the camp indiscriminately.  Without denying individual incidents or some

Page 42155

 1     undesirable conduct, there was a problem with the registering of people,

 2     their accommodation, their processing, and so on, which later all

 3     affected their status.

 4        Q.   In the second line of this paragraph, we read:

 5             "The filing of criminal complaints against persons who deserve

 6     it."

 7             What can you say about that?

 8        A.   Operatives continued the activities that they had engaged on in

 9     the municipalities because they knew the situation and they knew the

10     people.  They continued documenting their acts that were illegal, and

11     once they completed that job they would file criminal complaints against

12     them with the courts.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted for

15     identification?

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll mark it for identification.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D3912, marked for identification,

18     Your Honours.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

20             MR. NICHOLLS:  Well, we do have a translation, so no objection to

21     it coming in, in full.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll do so then.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit --

24             JUDGE KWON:  We'll admit it in full.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 42156

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   In the cross-examination based on document P3740 you saw the

 3     remarks that an officer at Manjaca sent out to the field about people

 4     having been taken there who had not taken part and so on.  Did that

 5     document contain any evidence to that effect?  Was it established somehow

 6     that they did not participate apart from their own statements?

 7        A.   I remember the report of the operative team.  I think that report

 8     was based on preliminary interviews that the team had conducted with the

 9     people taken to Manjaca and their statements about where they had been

10     and what they had done.  Based on that the report was drafted.  I did not

11     see the comparison of facts in -- stated by the person -- those persons

12     and by those stated in the reports of operatives in the field.

13        Q.   Can you as an expert tell us who is this man from Manjaca who

14     sends out documents to the field?  Is he also part of the official

15     structures, the authorities?  Who does he work for?

16             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls.

17             MR. NICHOLLS:  Can we go into private session for one moment?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 42157

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can anyone help me?  I don't know

20     if we -- if these documents were admitted -- oh, yes, they were.  Thank

21     you.

22             Can we now get 1D42 -- 4527.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   You have just mentioned that Mr. Brown suggested or put forward

25     his opinion on how people were caught and indiscriminately sent to the

Page 42158

 1     camp, but tell us what you found out in the documents?

 2        A.   Once a certain number of persons was collected and brought in, I

 3     saw in some documents that those for whom there were no indications that

 4     they had done anything illegal were released to go home, as we saw in the

 5     previous document, whereas those about whom there was information that

 6     they were involved in some illegal activity were taken from their

 7     respective municipalities to the Manjaca camp but there were also

 8     documents showing that their operative processing was done by the police

 9     in their municipalities.

10        Q.   Please tell the Trial Chamber what this document is and why these

11     four Muslims were sent to Manjaca.  Please read the reading and the

12     subheading.

13        A.   Yes.  These are persons sent to the Manjaca camp for further

14     processing.  Its official name was POW camp, and with each name we see a

15     statement of reasons why they were sent there and kept there.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Was it then clearer to the investigators at Manjaca

17     in which direction they should move and did you find any documents at

18     Manjaca where the investigators complain of belated information?

19        A.   Yes.  It would happen that people were sent before the

20     accompanying documents arrived.  In other words, the document were

21     sometimes late and that gave rise to dilemmas with the camp management.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have a hunch that Mr. Nicholls

24     might have a translation of this document, but at any rate I would like

25     to tender it for identification.

Page 42159

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll mark it for identification.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D3913 marked for identification,

 3     Your Honours.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   General, you were asked, and I'll give you a page reference too

 6     when I find it, you were asked questions about the Velagici crimes - that

 7     is page 83 - on the first day.  Eighty civilians were killed.  Was it

 8     clearly established that they were civilians?  Was that beyond dispute?

 9     Was it always easy to establish?  Of course a captured soldier mustn't be

10     killed either, but are we sure that those people were civilians?

11        A.   I did not see documents which would prove beyond any doubt that

12     they were civilians.  Most often - which was also confirmed by

13     Mr. Brown - in the enclave of Vesici around 450 Muslim combatants were

14     rounded up.  And together with some of the civilian population that had

15     not left the municipality of Kotor Varos.

16        Q.   General, sir, I am referring to Velagici.  I may have misspoken

17     perhaps.

18        A.   It may be my mistake as well.  I heard Velagici but then I

19     started talking about Vesici in Kotor Varos municipality.  In Velagici

20     there are no documents that would prove beyond any doubt those people

21     were civilians.  There are only documents that indicate that the incident

22     happened after the attack on the check-point which was in the vicinity of

23     the school in Velagici.

24        Q.   Thank you.  On page 84 you were told that they were tried only

25     after the year 2000 and that many had not been remanded in custody.  When

Page 42160

 1     we're talking about the Krajina Corps or the military police, where did

 2     their role stop?  What were they supposed to do in order to meet their

 3     obligations?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 5             Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

 6             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry, Your Honours, I have to say because he's

 7     calling his expert here and putting to him that there were no documents

 8     to show that the Velagici victims were civilians, P03513 is the request

 9     for an investigation in that case, it's in evidence, the Defence has it.

10     I think they almost have an obligation to show that to their witness now

11     given his answer.  And it's page 2 of the B/C/S makes it very clear --

12             JUDGE KWON:  If you could tell the crux of it.

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  Well, well it's --

14             JUDGE KWON:  -- on record.

15             MR. NICHOLLS:  The request for an investigation states:

16             "On the 1st of June, 1992, a group of 80 civilians were brought

17     to the check-point in the village of Velagici ..."

18             And then goes on to talk about here these are the 80 people who

19     were shot.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

21             Having heard Mr. Nicholls' submission, would you like to add

22     anything, Mr. Keserovic?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I really can't remember that I have

24     seen that request for investigation.  However, if that is what it says, I

25     said that I didn't see any documents that would prove beyond any

Page 42161

 1     reasonable doubt that those were only civilians.

 2             MR. NICHOLLS:  Well, I mean, that's not his role to say whether

 3     the documents prove anything beyond reasonable doubt.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we continue.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If Mr. Nicholls spoke about

 6     65 ter 15941 which is now in evidence as P --

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  I'm sorry, Mr. Karadzic might want to ask his

 8     expert witness what Article 142 is, which is what the soldiers were

 9     charged with in this case.  Article 142 is war crimes against civilians.

10     That's what the Velagici massacre suspects were charged with.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's look at 65 ter 15941 in that

12     case.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Other articles are mentioned there, 157 and 158.  I believe that

15     we are talking about the law on filing a criminal report.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could Mr. Nicholls be of assistance

17     and tell me whether this is the document in question?

18             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, I believe so.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   General, sir, could you please tell us what happens once a

22     request for investigation is filed, i.e., once a criminal report is

23     filed?  What is the role of the corps after that?  Under whose

24     authorities they fall after that?

25        A.   After that they fall under the authority of the court and the

Page 42162

 1     prosecutor's office.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  It was said that before they were put on trial, they

 3     were not remanded in custody.  Could you please tell us what is it that

 4     regulates the remand in custody?  Does it -- can it be endless or is

 5     there a regulation with that regard?

 6        A.   It is an investigative judge who orders for a person to be

 7     remanded in custody and for how long.  I'm not sure that I am familiar

 8     with articles of the act that regulate the length of that remand, but I

 9     know that at that time the military police could only keep suspects for a

10     day.  And immediately after that, they had to be handed over to the

11     competent investigative judge for further processing.

12        Q.   Thank you.  What were the resources and capacities of the

13     military judiciary during the war according to what you learned from the

14     documents?

15             MR. NICHOLLS:  I'm sorry, is this during the whole war?  That's

16     the question.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps the General could tell us

18     whether things improved or got worse.  Based on the documents that he

19     perused, could he tell us about the resources and capabilities of the

20     military judiciary throughout the war, including the beginning of 1993.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The resources were limited.  There

22     was a lack of both judges and prosecutors, and even more restricted were

23     financial resources as well as the space where those institutions

24     operated.  Things improved slightly as time went on.  In any case, the

25     resources were quite scarce.

Page 42163

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Based on the documents that you perused, would you say that

 3     people were released from custody and then all the proceedings were

 4     stayed against them; or once they were released, did it happen sometimes

 5     that they were still put on trial and again remanded on custody?

 6        A.   No.  When they were released, that meant that the investigation

 7     against them was completed but they -- the proceedings were not

 8     completed.  The final release happened only when the proceedings were

 9     completed in one way or another, either by a conviction or by the

10     proceedings being stayed for any other reason.

11        Q.   But when people were released to await trial, did that mean that

12     they would never be put on trial?

13        A.   No, not at all.

14        Q.   The prosecutor implied that you didn't notice that you didn't

15     highlight the fact that people were not remanded in custody -- one part

16     of that remark was that people were tried only after the war was over and

17     that before that, before they were put on trial, they were not remanded

18     in custody.  Do you know what the policy of this Tribunal is?  How long

19     did Mr. Krajisnik and Mr. Seselj spend in prison before their trial

20     started?  I've been here for five years, mind you.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, let's move on.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

23             And now can we look at the following issue.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   General, sir, how did Mr. Brown represent the room [Realtime

Page 42164

 1     transcript read in error "rumour"] of which you said that it was deep in

 2     our territory?  Did he represent it as a battle-field that was created by

 3     the Muslim forces or did he represent it as a calm area where we

 4     committed crimes against innocent civilians?

 5             MR. NICHOLLS:  I think that there's a problem with the transcript

 6     and also I'd like to know how this arises exactly.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm interested in the entire

 9     implication of Mr. Brown findings that General Keserovic challenged.  He

10     said that the Serbs carried out attacks, that they took over power, and

11     that they used minor incidents in order to retaliate against minority

12     Muslims and Croats.  I would like to know whether the general made the

13     same discovery, did he find the same thing or did he find something else

14     in those documents.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

16             MR. NICHOLLS:  Well, he appears, Mr. Karadzic, to be under the

17     impression that he's on direct again.

18             JUDGE KWON:  And the transcript you raised is "rumour"

19     Mr. Nicholls?

20             MR. NICHOLLS:  That's what I wondered.  I -- normally I wouldn't

21     interject for an obvious mistake, but I don't understand the question

22     because of the error in the transcript.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter believes that the word "rumour"

24     should be replaced by the word "room" or area or territory.

25             JUDGE KWON:  And, Mr. Karadzic, can you assist us how this arose

Page 42165

 1     from the line of cross-examination?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I believe that

 3     General Keserovic's position was challenged and that was that deep in our

 4     territory we faced an armed rebellion that took people away from the

 5     front line, threatened their families, and that was a theatre of war

 6     which was created by terrorist groups in the depths of our territory.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Throughout the war those groups

 9     were being challenged and arrested.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Did Mr. Nicholls deal with this?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes.  But it seems that I

12     remember the answer better than the question.  However, he did deal with

13     that and he said that Mr. Brown had used minor incidents to launch fierce

14     responses.  That was the position of the Prosecutor.  As a matter of

15     fact, the prosecutor repeats Brown's position and Brown did say that in

16     his report.

17             JUDGE KWON:  But General Keserovic dealt with it in his report.

18     Are we going to conclude his evidence today or not?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Excellencies.  I'm doing my

20     best and I believe that we will.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Then shall we move on to your next topic?

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   General, sir, can we look at 1D3771.  Did you personally see

24     documents -- created documents by which minorities were protected and

25     crimes against them prosecuted?

Page 42166

 1             JUDGE KWON:  By the way, are you tendering the previous document,

 2     request for investigation?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that it is already in

 4     evidence under a P number.

 5             MR. NICHOLLS:  I agree, Your Honour.  I don't have it with me at

 6     the moment, I can't give you the number, but I believe it's in.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Oh, yes.  Thank you.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Could you please tell us what this document is.  It was issued on

10     the 1st of November, 1992.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go to the following page.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   First of all, tell us what this document is.

14        A.   This is one of my daily reports that I issued as the commander of

15     the battalion of the military police of the East Bosnia Corps.  It was

16     sent to the corps commander and it describes the work of the military

17     police unit, i.e., of its duty service.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go to the following page in

20     both languages.  It might even be number 3 in English, page number 3.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Look at the paragraph which starts with the words "an on-site

23     inspection was carried out in Rodoljuba Colakovica Street."  What was

24     this about?  What did you do as the military police?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second -- yes, Mr. Nicholls.

Page 42167

 1             MR. NICHOLLS:  Objection:  One, he's now going into the witness

 2     as a fact witness; two, this is well outside the ARK.  When Mr. Brown

 3     testified on direct I tried to go into, for example, Directive 4 and some

 4     events in Eastern Bosnia because I thought it tied in to the report and

 5     we were pretty much limited to the -- for this type of evidence, crimes

 6     on the ground, et cetera, to the area of responsibility of the 1 KK and

 7     the municipalities in Eastern Bosnia of the ARK.  So I don't think it's

 8     proper now to go into on re-direct to rebut the cross crimes in Bijeljina

 9     if that's what this is.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that this is relevant

11     from the point of view of credibility because the conduct of the Serbian

12     side was challenged during the cross-examination of this expert, and here

13     he personally reaffirms his own credibility.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, we agree with Mr. Nicholls.  Move on

16     to another topic.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   General, sir, you've told us that Major Marinic [as interpreted]

20     told you in a conversation you had with him that General Mladic had given

21     him a good reason why the registration of prisoners of war should stop.

22        A.   I repeated it several times.  He said that the registration

23     should stop because they would be moved to wherever they wanted to go.

24     After the families that had already been transported in the direction of

25     Tuzla, they would follow.  That was the reason that was given to me

Page 42168

 1     according to my best recollection.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] For the participants this is from

 4     the Mladic trial on 12865.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   When it comes to the registration of prisoners of war, was that a

 7     standard procedure in the Army of Republika Srpska?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

 9             MR. NICHOLLS:  Transcript matters.  At 101, line 10, should be

10     Malinic, not Marinic.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Malinic, yes, I'm sorry.  Perhaps

12     my articulation was not very good at this hour.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   So the registration of prisoners of war, is that standard

15     procedure in the Army of Republika Srpska?

16        A.   Yes.  The registration and also according them the status of

17     prisoners of war and the rights enjoyed by POWs.

18        Q.   Thank you.  What is the fate and procedure involving personal

19     belongings of prisoners of war?  Can they keep them or, according to

20     regulations, were they taken away from them?

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

22             MR. NICHOLLS:  Does not arise from any way from my cross.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect, I think it

24     does because the General was asked about that, why this was stopped, and

25     it was suggested that it was stopped for criminal reasons.  And also in

Page 42169

 1     particular the question of documents was referred to as such.

 2             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yeah, let's see the cite for that, please.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure that was dealt with, but ...

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we upload -- if you could identify the page

 6     number, shall we take a look.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mladic, it was mentioned at --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  No, Mr. Karadzic.  Mr. Nicholls was referring to his

 9     cross-examination, whether your question now arises from his

10     cross-examination.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that that is the case,

12     but he seems to have caught me on my left foot so I cannot deal with all

13     the transcript pages.  So I'll move on to something else.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   General, you were asked when you first heard of prisoners from

16     Srebrenica being killed?

17        A.   Yes, I was asked, and I said when Drazen Erdemovic and Kremenovic

18     were brought in, that was the first time that I found out about that.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21             MR. NICHOLLS:  I stand to be corrected, but asked in which case?

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe in this case.  I believe

23     that even some doubt was expressed, that Mr. Nicholls dealt with that

24     subject.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Having heard his cross-examination a while ago, I

Page 42170

 1     can't remember.

 2             Shall we continue, Mr. Nicholls?  It has already been answered.

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, but I believe I did not ask him when he first

 4     heard about executions in Srebrenica.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   General, sir, did you ever see any written report of the Army of

 9     Republika Srpska in which executions are mentioned --

10             JUDGE KWON:  I'm absolutely confident that was not discussed.

11             Mr. Nicholls.

12             MR. NICHOLLS:  No, he's now going through ...

13                           [Trial Chamber confers].

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

15             MR. NICHOLLS:  My objection is it does not arise from the cross.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, it does arise from the cross

18     because the cross attacked the credibility of General Keserovic on the

19     fact that he knew that prisoners had been killed, particularly

20     referencing Cerska in the 17th of July.  So in order to show that that's

21     not correct, to restore credibility, we're entitled to show that he

22     didn't know during this period of time that any prisoners had been

23     executed.  And one way --

24             JUDGE KWON:  And how is it related to the report to the --

25             MR. ROBINSON:  Because that's --

Page 42171

 1             JUDGE KWON:  -- somewhere else?

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  Because that's one way in which he may have

 3     learned whether or not prisoners had been executed and the fact that

 4     he -- whether or not he saw any written reports which indicated prisoners

 5     from Srebrenica had been executed is relevant to that issue of his

 6     knowledge which was raised as a credibility attack.

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  Since Mr. Robinson's dealing with it, he should be

 8     prepared.  I'd like to know the page and line that I opened the door to

 9     that with.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  There's a whole raft of pages.  I don't -- I can

11     look them up very quickly, but all -- the whole cross-examination about

12     Cerska and his responsibility for the terrain -- search of the terrain

13     after the 16th and 17th of July raised the issue of his involvement with

14     the events in Srebrenica and, in fact, Mr. Nicholls concluded with the

15     question -- proposition that he was somehow concealing his knowledge of

16     the crimes in Srebrenica, and therefore went to his credibility because

17     he was trying to deny that he was the commander of those forces during

18     that time.

19             MR. NICHOLLS:  And it's very creative, but none of that raises or

20     opens the door to questions about reports which he may have reviewed.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson, your reliance on credibility seems to

23     be a bit remote.  The Chamber doesn't think this arose from the

24     cross-examination.

25             Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

Page 42172

 1                           [Defence counsel confer]

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.  It is

 3     with pleasure that I will accept Mr. Nicholls' position, namely, that the

 4     credibility of General Keserovic is not being brought into question.  And

 5     now I'm going to go back to Kotor Varos and Vecici --

 6             MR. NICHOLLS:  [Overlapping speakers]

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- where it was challenged that --

 8     that political work was being done in terms of alleviating the situation.

 9             MR. NICHOLLS:  Just for the record, I don't accept

10     Mr. Keserovic's credibility.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, then I should be allowed to

12     strengthen it.

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  The way to strengthen it is --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Let's leave it.  It's not -- I'll leave it at that.

15             Please continue.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 714, please, could we have a

17     look at that.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   General, sir, it has been disputed that everything possible was

20     done to alleviate the situation and to ensure conditions for civilians.

21     There is a translation, there must be a translation, yes, please.  Could

22     you cast a glance at this.  Do you know this document?  It has to do with

23     Vecici that we mentioned a moment ago and my position that they should be

24     released and also this disagreement with the command.  Do you know this

25     document?

Page 42173

 1        A.   Yes.  This is from a session of the War Presidency of the

 2     municipality of Kotor Varos where your position was presented, namely,

 3     that the civilian population of Vecici should be released.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls.

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  Just a moment, Your Honour.  No objection.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll admit it.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D3914, Your Honours.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   So this is the 1st October -- no, 1st November.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see 1D3 from --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, how much longer are you going to go

15     for today?  How much more would you need to conclude?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Until 3.00, Excellencies.  If you

17     would bear with me, I would finish by 3.00.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Very well, please continue.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D9330, please.  All of it seems to

20     be in the English language.  The original is not there, but I'll take a

21     look at this.  I'll read it.  From the 14th of October, 1992, on the

22     basis of the decision of the Presidency of Republika Srpska of the 14th

23     of October, 1992, on the same day they passed a decision.

24             [In English] "Enabling all armed persons on the territory of the

25     Kotor Varos municipality to lay down their arms by 15th of October, 1992,

Page 42174

 1     by 1400 hours.

 2             "Persons are permitted to remain in their houses, with a full

 3     guarantee of their personal and property safety.  Those who feel that the

 4     security provided in this area is not guaranteed will be enabled to leave

 5     the territory of Kotor Varos municipality and Republika Srpska

 6     unhindered, under the supervision of the International Red Cross."

 7             [Interpretation] Were you aware of this document and were you

 8     aware of this position of the authorities in Kotor Varos?

 9        A.   Yes, I'm aware of this position.  I was aware of this document.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 65 ter 819.

11             Can this document be admitted?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D3915.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 819 now, please.  Yes, that's it.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Can you tell us what happened in the beginning of June, that is

17     what this report refers to.  So you see here Slavonski Brod, Derventa,

18     and then the second paragraph:

19             "In the area of Prijedor, Sanski Most, Kljuc ...," please go on.

20        A.   There are still --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We do not know where the

22     witness is reading from.

23             JUDGE KWON:  You're too fast.

24             Where can we find the passage, Mr. Karadzic?

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's actually the end of the first

Page 42175

 1     paragraph.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             "In the area of Prijedor, Sanski Most, and Kljuc there are still

 5     individuals and groups of extremists that are still active.

 6             "It is to be expected that there will be fighting in the entire

 7     area of responsibility and that new hotbeds of crisis will be opened up.

 8     The Ustasha attacks will focus on the areas of Jajce and Donji Vakuf."

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page, please.

11     Point 7.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   General, can you tell us what the losses of the 30th

14     Partizan Division were from --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not catch the date.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   -- 14 soldiers, that is actually in paragraph 7 in our depth,

18     that is what it looked like.  How could we have 14 soldiers who were

19     killed?

20        A.   And that is in three days only.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Brown, did he understand that these groups turned

22     our rear into a front line, into a battle-field?  Was that the right kind

23     of appraisal?

24             MR. NICHOLLS:  Leading.  And this -- just for the record, this is

25     footnoted by Brown at 604 and 619.  But I do object to that kind of

Page 42176

 1     leading.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Now it's time to wrap up your re-examination.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.  But then I'd like

 4     to tender this document because it is in the footnote.  And I withdraw

 5     that question about the 14 casualties.

 6             MR. NICHOLLS:  No objection.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll admit it.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D3916, Your Honours.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to thank the Chamber

10     for this additional effort and the Prosecution as well and the

11     interpreters and the Registry, and I would like to thank the General for

12     his efforts made in order to work out this expert report and in terms of

13     his testimony too.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Well, that concludes your evidence,

15     General Keserovic.  Thank you for your coming to The Hague to give it.

16     You are free to go.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

18             JUDGE KWON:  There's one matter I'd like to deal with in private

19     session.

20                           [The witness withdrew]

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 42177

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Tomorrow we'll resume at quarter past 2.00 in the

13     afternoon and start with Mr. Kljajic?

14             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct, Mr. President.

15             JUDGE KWON:  The hearing is adjourned.

16                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.00 p.m.,

17                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 30th day of

18                           July, 2013, at 2.15 p.m.