Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 43559

 1                           Friday, 15 November 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Excellencies.

 9     Good morning, everyone.

10                           WITNESS:  VOJISLAV KUPRESANIN [Resumed]

11                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

12                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Kupresanin.

14        A.   Good morning.

15        Q.   If we can just make slightly longer breaks, please.  You were

16     asked and you answered about the influence, that is to say, the autonomy

17     of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, so I will ask you to have a look at

18     one document which you sent.  It's 1D9862.

19        A.   There's nothing on the screen here.

20        Q.   Please have a look at this.  It's 1992.  I can't see the exact

21     date but it's somewhere here.  The 10th of July it seems.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  The 10th of August, interpreter's correction.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Or perhaps it's earlier.  I can't

24     see it but we'll see.  Perhaps the 1st of August.  Yes.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]


Page 43560

 1        Q.   Please look at what your proposal was with regard to these people

 2     and can you please tell the Chamber how much of this proposal was

 3     adopted.  You proposed --

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please scroll down or turn

 5     into the following page in the Serbian version.  And in English also,

 6     please.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   You proposed Nedeljko Lajic, Colonel Subotic, and Petar Markovic.

 9     Were all three of them in the government?

10        A.   Can you repeat, please.  Petar Markovic, yes.  Subotic, yes.  And

11     who else did you say, Lajic?

12        Q.   Yes, the minister of transportation.

13        A.   Yes, yes, they were in the government.

14        Q.   Thank you.  And up on the page we can see that you proposed

15     Bijelic Slobodan, Jovo Todorovic, Vukasin Basic, Nenad Balaban, and up

16     there Radoslav Brdjanin for construction works.  Somebody else as well,

17     Nikola Herceg for the government.  Were all these people in the

18     government and were these wishes of the Autonomous Region of Krajina

19     taken into account?

20        A.   I think that our agreement on the founding of the

21     Republika Srpska and constituting of the Assembly was that regions would

22     be equally represented in the top organs, that is to say, the government

23     and the ministries of Republika Srpska, and that was honoured.  We had no

24     objections.  All the people we proposed were appointed to the relevant

25     ministries and relevant posts.


Page 43561

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D4026, Your Honours.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   In cross-examination it was suggested to you that the goal of

 7     regionalisation was to break up Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Can you tell us,

 8     first of all, until when did Bosnia-Herzegovina de facto and de jure

 9     continue to be an integral part of Yugoslavia?

10        A.   I think until April or May it was a part of Yugoslavia.  Perhaps

11     it was May, the 5th of May, I'm not sure.

12        Q.   You mean when did it stop being in Yugoslavia when it was

13     admitted to the UN?

14        A.   We could put it that way.  I think it was admitted on the

15     6th of April, wasn't it?

16        Q.   On the 6th of May it was acknowledged and in late May it was

17     admitted to the UN.

18        A.   And I did not understand your question.  Up until was Bosnia --

19        Q.   De facto and de jure a part of Yugoslavia?

20        A.   Correct, until it became independent and until it was recognised

21     by the UN.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

23             MR. TIEGER:  Let's bear in mind this is not a dialogue between

24     Mr. Karadzic and the witness, where the witness can put questions to

25     Mr. Karadzic, who can then answer them and they can continue.  So


Page 43562

 1     Dr. Karadzic needs to refrain from providing the witness with helpful

 2     information that advances the answers he's looking for.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Let's continue.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   But the dates themselves are undisputed.  This is why I wanted to

 7     touch on this.

 8             Mr. Kupresanin, when did the talks and activities about

 9     regionalisation begin in 1991?  That is to say, when that happened, was

10     Bosnia then still an integral part of Yugoslavia and its constitutional

11     and legal system?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.  In such a Yugoslavia, were the Muslims, the Croats,

14     and the Serbs all in one state?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Did the Muslims and the Croats want to continue living together

17     with the Serbs in Yugoslavia?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   Thank you.  As for the Muslim and Croat political parties which

20     were pushing Bosnia towards secession, did they violate the constitution

21     of the SFRY and Bosnia-Herzegovina?

22        A.   Correct, they did.

23        Q.   And as for the ARK, the Autonomous Region of Krajina, was it

24     formed as an exclusively Serbian region and was that the first attempt at

25     regionalisation or have there been other attempts before Krajina?


Page 43563

 1        A.   The very title of the Autonomous Region of Krajina does not

 2     include the adjective Serbian, such as the Serbian autonomous districts

 3     in some other areas.  We intentionally avoided this title and this

 4     adjective so that everyone would feel more comfortable and better and

 5     more at ease, as if they were at their own home.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  In your interview from 2001, which is 65 ter 25608 --

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 25608, English page 8, Serbian

 8     page 12.  It's line 43 here and Serbian pages number 12, English

 9     page 8 --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, what number?

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Line 43 in English.  Let me just check where it is here.

13             "That idea of the region is to regionalise Bosnia" --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

15             Yes.

16             MR. TIEGER:  I'm not quite sure where we're headed, but here's

17     what it appears to me.  The -- our use of this interview in

18     cross-examination does not give the accused carte blanche to lay out

19     portions of the interview in a leading way to this witness that don't

20     bear on those portions that were used in the cross-examination.  So I

21     don't think this was --

22             JUDGE KWON:  But the passage seems to be related to

23     regionalisation --

24             MR. TIEGER:  That's correct --

25             JUDGE KWON:  -- about which he put already some questions.  So --


Page 43564

 1             MR. TIEGER:  But this is not a document.  This is what the

 2     witness said before, Mr. President, and this is just an attempt to lead

 3     the witness to something he said -- he can elicit information from this

 4     witness.  If he needs a document, for example, to refresh a specific

 5     recollection of the witness, that would be fair, but all it is now is

 6     trawling through portions of this thing in a leading manner to get the

 7     witness to affirm.  That's fine in cross-examination, as you know, but

 8     that's not a proper method of direct or re-direct and we've already

 9     crossed that bridge on many occasions.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Would you like to add anything, Mr. Robinson?

11             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  I don't agree with

12     Mr. Tieger.  The Prosecution used this interview selectively to try to

13     show that statements that were made at that time were inconsistent with

14     his position today, and I think Dr. Karadzic is now fully entitled to put

15     portions of those interviews so the witness can explain his position on

16     those same issues.

17             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, I -- it --

18             JUDGE KWON:  I will just --

19             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry --

20             JUDGE KWON:  Just wait.  I'm waiting for the interpretation.

21     When you stand, I will give you the floor.

22             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

23             MR. TIEGER:  And sorry for jumping the gun.

24             I acknowledged that essentially when I spoke earlier, and that is

25     where there are portions that are -- may be properly contextualised, that


Page 43565

 1     is, portions of the interview that were raised before that can require a

 2     proper contextualisation or the accused considers need to be

 3     contextualised by other parts of the interview related to that specific

 4     portion that was raised, that's appropriate and I said that.  But that

 5     doesn't mean that the accused can go to any part of the interview with

 6     respect to any issue that was raised in cross-examination, and that's, I

 7     think, what Mr. Robinson may have inadvertently suggested; that would not

 8     be appropriate, that would be leading.  So with that caveat, my objection

 9     stands, and I think that's what's happening in this particular instance.

10     I don't believe that there's anything about what I see on this page that

11     implicates a portion of the interview that I raised in cross-examination.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. -- could we collapse the document for the

13     moment.

14             Mr. Kupresanin, could you kindly take off your headphones for the

15     moment.

16             Mr. Karadzic put some questions about regionalisation, for

17     example, whether at that time the -- Bosnia was still part of Yugoslavia

18     and he dealt with some constitutional issues.  And here it says the

19     regionalisation was already an old idea at the time.  Why do you think

20     this is leading, Mr. Tieger?

21             MR. TIEGER:  Well, first of all, because, Mr. President, the --

22     it's leading because he's saying:  Let me tell you what you said before,

23     that's what you said or that's right, isn't it?  So the only reason this

24     would be relevant is if it -- if the specific issue was raised in a

25     manner to suggest that the witness had never taken that position before


Page 43566

 1     or if another portion of the interview had been cited where the witness

 2     contradicted this point and now they want to show:  Well, in another

 3     portion of the interview he said something more consistent with the

 4     information in his statement.

 5             But simply to use this document, to put it in front of the

 6     witness, to say:  Now I'm asking you some questions about a general topic

 7     that wasn't raised in cross-examination, which is where we are right now,

 8     Mr. Karadzic is focusing on information that was already in the statement

 9     and he's returning back to the statement to try to make an advocacy

10     point.  And he now uses the interview to take the witness to things he

11     wants the witness to say.  And if the witness -- he can just ask the

12     witness the question here.  If the witness affirms that proposition, he

13     has the information; if the witness doesn't affirm that proposition, then

14     the Court knows what the witness remembers today.  And then if the

15     accused wants to take him back to refresh his recollection, he can, but

16     then you have a much better idea of what this witness knows now rather

17     than what Dr. Karadzic wants him to simply affirm.

18             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, I think this is really --

19             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

20             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

21             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, when the Prosecution used this

22     interview during the course of its cross-examination to show that the

23     witness was giving answers different than what he said before and was

24     therefore not credible, that opened the door for Dr. Karadzic to use any

25     portion of that interview to show that he was consistent -- what he says


Page 43567

 1     now is consistent with what he said then on any topic covered by the

 2     cross-examination, not whether -- it's not restricted to any portions --

 3     and he can do that by putting what the witness -- showing the witness

 4     what he said before and asking him how that relates to what actually is

 5     the fact and the witness can give his testimony as to what he believes

 6     the case.

 7             So this is a very hyper-technical approach that Mr. Tieger is

 8     taking and we don't act in that spirit during his cross-examination

 9     because he asked a lot of questions that could have been objected to

10     which were convoluted and complex and we let it go for the purpose of --

11     just a free flow of information and exchange.  But in this instance, I

12     think Mr. Tieger is being hyper-technical and unduly restricting the

13     examination -- the re-direct examination.

14             THE ACCUSED:  If I may add --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. --

16             MR. TIEGER:  Yeah --

17             JUDGE KWON:  -- Tieger first.

18             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19             Last point from me then.  I take very seriously Mr. Robinson's

20     suggestion that I somehow may be running afoul of the spirit of the

21     courtroom which has developed because I appreciate the -- what I think

22     has been an exemplary attitude in the courtroom on the side of everyone

23     in the courtroom, and I don't want to do anything to impede that.

24             Let me just say that it's not the cross -- it's not the

25     Prosecution's point that this witness was incapable ever of saying


Page 43568

 1     anything consistent with what he said before; that wasn't the nature of

 2     the impeachment.  So he's not really rehabilitated if he finds some

 3     points he's consistent on.  The point was he was being inconsistent on

 4     particular points of particular interest.  So to go back and identify all

 5     the points on which he was consistent doesn't really advance the ball in

 6     that way --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, Mr. Tieger.

 8             Let's consider in this way, one option the Chamber could have

 9     taken when you tendered the part of the interview was to admit it in its

10     entirety --

11             MR. TIEGER:  I'm sorry, Mr. President, this may help.  I don't

12     mean to interrupt.  I'm withdrawing the objection in light of

13     Mr. Robinson's comments.  That's what I was going to say.  I just didn't

14     want to be misunderstood what the impeachment was about.  Sorry to

15     interrupt, but I thought that might help the Court.

16             I accept that we are in a position where we're trying to be as

17     accommodating as possible and not have unnecessary obstacles.  I think

18     this is helpful in the sense that the cross-examination -- the nature of

19     the cross-examination is not misunderstood and the nature of the attempt

20     at rehabilitation is not misunderstood, but let me not be in the way any

21     further.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE KWON:  Gospodine Kupresanin, you may use your headphones

24     now.

25             Yes, we'll admit it.


Page 43569

 1                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yeah, we'll add that page to the P6510, I don't

 3     remember the number -- yes, P6510.

 4             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   I asked all this because of page 22 of yesterday's transcript and

 8     the minutes of our meeting dated the 14th of February --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Karadzic please repeat the year.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Mr. Kupresanin, on the 14th of February, 1992, were we all still

12     in Yugoslavia and was Bosnia in Yugoslavia?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Thank you.  You confirmed again that you wanted the Muslims and

15     the Croats -- or did you want the Muslims and the Croats to feel

16     comfortable within the Autonomous Region of Krajina?

17        A.   Certainly.  We wanted to expand the region so as to include the

18     Jajce municipality, the Cazin Krajina, and a number of municipalities

19     where the Muslims were the dominant population, mostly Muslims.  The goal

20     was to begin functioning economically in the first place.  Kladusa, where

21     Fikret Abdic was the main man, where he had one of the most powerful

22     processing industries in the former Yugoslavia, I asked him several times

23     by fax to begin co-operating with the area where I lived, which is called

24     Lijevce Polje.  It's a huge valley where food is produced in large

25     quantities, meat, grain, and mostly vegetables, that we should serve as


Page 43570

 1     the material basis and they would develop further their processing

 2     industry.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see page 9 of this

 5     document in English and page 13 in Serbian.

 6             [Microphone not activated].

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   From here 37, it's line 10 here in Serbian, where you say:

10             "Well, the tendency was to create regions in

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina ... from the beginning of 1991 ..."

12             And then you say later:

13             "... the Serbian Autonomous Regions, in order to avoid the

14     Serbian prefix, we used Autonomous Region because there were Muslims and

15     Croats who lived here, and all of us together, in order not to irritate

16     them, eventually we called it the Autonomous Region."

17             Does that correspond to the state of minds as it existed at the

18     time?

19        A.   It was supposed to correspond and I believe that at first it did.

20     Last time when answering a Prosecutor's question I said that I have my

21     personal view of who we are in this area.  I believe that 100 per cent we

22     are one and the same people and that everything that went on later is

23     pure horror.  I don't think it was the will and the decision of the

24     people.  International intelligence services drew us into something

25     that's called war.  I believe that people on all sides had the goodwill


Page 43571

 1     to live in peace because we are normal peoples.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  This position of yours not to irritate the Muslims

 3     and the Croats, did it result in their participation in the work?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please show the following

 7     page as well in English and in Serbian too.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   This, Mr. Kupresanin, where you say that the question was of the

10     168 deputies in the Assembly, were there any Croats and Muslims?  And you

11     say that the percentage reflected -- [In English] A percentage of

12     different ethnicities in different municipalities that number was

13     represented [Interpretation] And so on and so forth.  And a bit lower

14     down the question is:

15             [In English] "So I come back to the question:  How many Muslims

16     were in the ARK Assembly?"

17             And your response was:

18             "Well, I don't know exactly.  At the beginning" --

19             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Just a second.  Just a second.

20             Probably we need the next page in English.

21             THE ACCUSED:  Yes.  Thank you.  Sorry.  From the line 28.

22             MR. KARADZIC:

23        Q.   And your response was from 31 and then 46.

24             [Interpretation] Does this correspond to the situation which

25     existed at the time and why, in your view, did the Muslim and Croatian


Page 43572

 1     participation in the Krajina Assembly begin to dwindle?

 2        A.   The presence of the Muslims and the Croatians in the Assembly was

 3     adequate to their participation at the municipal level.  Why did they

 4     become less and less active?  Because the parties that were in power and

 5     the political turmoil in all Bosnia-Herzegovina, but primarily in

 6     Sarajevo, primarily influenced them so that they began to withdraw from

 7     the political life in the Autonomous Region of Krajina.  Whatever was

 8     going on in Sarajevo was reflected in a way in the outlying areas.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please add these two

11     pages?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Another question with regard to this subject matter.  You were

16     asked about what happened in Kotor Varos.  What was your role and what

17     was my role in these events, to the best of your knowledge then?

18        A.   Well, I informed you and you told me:  Mr. Kupresanin, I trust

19     you, you will do that best.  Actually, I told you what was going on in

20     Kotor Varos, there were killings going on all the time, more and more

21     from one day to the other.  Also an incredible crime was committed; that

22     is to say, people were impaled and then roasted like pigs.  Then also,

23     they used saws to saw off people's limbs.  I did not investigate.  I

24     thought that we who figured prominently in those areas should be involved

25     in resolving the problems in that area.  I, Mr. Komarica, two other


Page 43573

 1     priests, a hodza, Nikola Gabelic, the president of the HDZ -- the

 2     president of the HDZ did not want to take part.  His policy was:  The

 3     worse the better.  I asked him so many times to come along with me, to do

 4     something about it.  However, Emir Busatlic, a doctor, a dentist, he

 5     appeared fortunately and we as a team tried to find a peaceful solution.

 6     If necessary, I can go on talking about this; if not, I will stop.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  What was my position with regard to care for

 8     civilians and the fate of civilians in Kotor Varos, do you remember?  Did

 9     you have insight?

10        A.   As usual, you said that maximum care should be taken of

11     civilians.  When I say "civilians," I am not speaking about adults to a

12     very high degree; I'm talking about women, children, and old people.  And

13     that was being done.

14        Q.   Thank you.  You were asked about dismissals of directors,

15     managers.  Was it directors of private companies or equity companies that

16     were being replaced?

17        A.   No, just public enterprises, state-owned enterprises.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Which political party is accountable for the

19     successful performance of state-owned enterprises in the municipality?

20        A.   Certainly the party that won the elections.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, Mr. Karadzic.

22             Mr. Kupresanin, if you clarify this.  A minute ago you talked

23     about civilians.  You said, I quote:

24             "I'm talking about women, children, and old people.  And that was

25     being done."


Page 43574

 1             And before that you said you are not talking about adults to a

 2     very high degree.  Could you clarify what you meant by that?  You're not

 3     speaking about adults to a very high degree.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The accent were the women and

 5     children, that's what was accentuated, because physically they are under

 6     threat, they are sensitive being outdoors when there is a terrible storm

 7     outside, and there was a storm at that time.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Then how about the male civilians?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I was with the men, the

10     civilians.  Of course we talked about the different subjects.  While I

11     was there talking to them, there were some European media that were

12     present.  Everything was filmed.  They brought me weapons.  There weren't

13     even our soldiers there.  There were two or three soldiers who took these

14     weapons and put them into trucks, and then they went into buses.  Then I

15     noticed that people were asking civilians for money and then I protested,

16     and then I said:  What's going to happen if they don't have any money?

17     And then they weren't being asked for money anymore because many of them

18     did not have any money in the first place.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Very well --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 50 marks, that's what they were

21     asked to give.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  I will leave it at that.

23             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]


Page 43575

 1        Q.   For what purpose were those 50 marks asked for?

 2        A.   The explanation was for the bus, for that service.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             Brisevo was mentioned.  Was Brisevo an undefended village with

 5     civilians that some armed formation of the Serbs attacked?  Was there any

 6     combat there or was this an unarmed village?

 7        A.   I think it was unarmed.  There was no combat there.  I don't know

 8     which military formations attacked the village.  I could not receive any

 9     more detailed information.  These women that I saw did not want to

10     discuss any subject.  They just said:  We want to leave.  There is no

11     going back for us.  We don't want to be reminded, and so on and so forth.

12     I said yesterday that these figures constantly varied, 80, 60, the

13     numbers of persons killed.  So I really don't know how many victims there

14     were there.

15             I could not enter Brisevo.  The army brought us there and that's

16     where we stayed, and then Catholic mass was celebrated in a church and

17     that's it.  At any rate, we promised that that would happen and that did

18     happen.

19        Q.   Thank you.  You were also asked about a telegram that was shown

20     to you -- or actually, a telegram was shown to you -- actually, let me

21     ask you this first:  Was military rule imposed in any municipality in the

22     Krajina?

23        A.   This is the first time I hear of that.

24        Q.   There was no military rule?

25        A.   This is the first time I hear of that from you.


Page 43576

 1        Q.   Thank you.  You were shown an intercept from the 23rd of July,

 2     1991, as a reaction to your assertion that you did not talk to me about

 3     the establishment of the Krajina.  On the 30th of July, 1991, was this

 4     intercept about the establishment of the Krajina or was it about a

 5     referendum that somebody had proposed and that I had refused --

 6        A.   [No interpretation]

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We do not hear the

 8     witness.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's call up the document.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

12             MR. TIEGER:  I believe the Court can see readily what a leading

13     question this was.  And we can call up the document, but now the witness

14     has been informed about what the accused's position is and what kind of

15     answer he wants.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Do you follow, Mr. Karadzic?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Excellency, but I think that

18     the entire telegram was not shown to the witness.  He was only asked

19     about a single sentence.

20             JUDGE KWON:  So you do not follow.  Read your question again and

21     the way it was formatted, it's very much leading.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I understand now, but could the

23     telegram be shown now, or rather, that intercept.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Exhibit number?  Or 65 ter?

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm looking for it.


Page 43577

 1             All right.  It's hard to find and I don't want to waste any

 2     time --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Is it D1084?

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Possibly.  If it's the 23rd of

 5     July, 1991.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  I think it's P1084.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  It's referred to in paragraph 13.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  It's one of the associated exhibits, correct.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, P1084.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Do cast a glance at the first page and then let's take a look at

12     this second page.

13             THE ACCUSED:  Next page in Serbian, please.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Please take a look at this.  The fourth part where you are

16     speaking, that they reached some kind of agreement concerning a

17     referendum.  I heard about that today, and then four paragraphs down I'm

18     speaking about that referendum, saying that things should not be done,

19     anything that would violate the constitution.

20             Do you remember that?

21        A.   I remember that, but that did not happen.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Kupresanin.  I have no further

23     questions.  Thank you for having made this effort to come here and

24     testify, and thank you for having taken care of all the citizens of the

25     Krajina as I had hoped.


Page 43578

 1        A.   Thank you.  Thank you to the Judges, the Prosecutors, and Defence

 2     counsel.  I enjoyed this.  This was pleasant.  I didn't have any

 3     problems.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Well, unless my colleagues have a question for you,

 5     that concludes your evidence.  On behalf of the Chamber, I would like to

 6     thank you for your coming to The Hague to give it.  You're free to go.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ah, thank you too.

 8                           [The witness withdrew]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  And your next witness is Poplasen?

10             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Even if we can conclude this witness's evidence

12     today, I don't think we can hear part of Mr. Krajisnik's

13     cross-examination today.

14             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President.

15                           [The witness entered court]

16             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness make the solemn declaration.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

18     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

19                           WITNESS:  NIKOLA POPLASEN

20                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Poplasen.  Please be seated and make

22     yourself comfortable.

23             Good morning to you, Mr. Poplasen.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President.  Good

25     morning, honourable Judges.  Good morning to all the participants in

 


Page 43579

 1     these proceedings.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 3             Before you commence your evidence, Mr. Poplasen, I must draw your

 4     attention to a certain rule that we have here at the international

 5     Tribunal, that is, Rule 90(E) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence.

 6     Under this rule, you may object to answering any question from

 7     Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecutor, or even from the Judges if you believe that

 8     your answer might incriminate you in a criminal offence.  In this

 9     context, "incriminate" means saying something that might amount to an

10     admission of guilt for a criminal offence or saying something that might

11     provide evidence that you might have committed a criminal offence.

12     However, should you think that an answer might incriminate you and as a

13     consequence you refuse to answer the question, I must let you know that

14     the Tribunal has the power to compel you to answer the question.  But in

15     that situation, the Tribunal would ensure that your testimony compelled

16     under such circumstances would not be used in any case that might be laid

17     against you for any offence, save and except the offence of giving false

18     testimony.

19             Do you understand that, sir?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

22             Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President.

 


Page 43580

 1        A.   Good morning to you once again.

 2        Q.   Thank you for having already felt that pauses should be made

 3     between questions and answers because we are speaking the same language.

 4     Did you give a statement to my Defence team?

 5        A.   Yes, I gave a statement in writing.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have 1D9193 in

 8     e-court.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Do you see that statement before you on the screen?

11        A.   Yes, that is the statement that I provided.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Did you read and sign the statement?

13        A.   Yes, I read it in its entirety and I signed it.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

16     the last page so that he could identify his signature.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is my signature.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Thank you.  Does this statement faithfully reflect what you said

20     to the Defence team?

21        A.   Yes, entirely.

22        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to put the same questions to you today in

23     this courtroom live, would your answers basically be the same?

24        A.   Basically they would be the same, but I did not learn this text

25     by heart so it's not that I can remember all of it that way.  Basically

 


Page 43581

 1     they would be the same.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

 4     statement according to Rule 92 ter.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  I take it that you're tendering some associated

 6     exhibits as well?

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  There are six associated exhibits that we're

10     tendering, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Were they on the 65 ter list?

12             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Any objection, Ms. Edgerton?

14             MS. EDGERTON:  No.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll assign -- we'll admit them and assign the

16     numbers.  Shall we do that now?

17             THE REGISTRAR:  92 ter statement will be Exhibit D4027,

18     65 ter number 1566 will be Exhibit D4028 --

19             JUDGE KWON:  They will be given numbers from D4028 to --

20             THE REGISTRAR:  D4033 --

21             JUDGE KWON:  In the order of their numbers.

22             Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             Now I'm going to read out the summary of Professor Nikola

25     Poplasen's statement in English.


Page 43582

 1             [In English] Nikola Poplasen was appointed a member of the

 2     Political Council of the SDS in late 1990.  In April 1992 he became

 3     adviser to the Presidency of the Serbian Republic of BH, and in June 1992

 4     he was appointed commissioner of the Republika Srpska Presidency for

 5     Vogosca municipality.

 6             The situation in Sarajevo and Vogosca was chaotic.  The SDA acted

 7     without heed to the wishes of the Serbs and appointed company directors

 8     and municipal leaders.  The majority of the directors were Muslims.

 9             The barricades in Vogosca started springing up throughout the

10     town at about the same time.  The breakdown in security, lack of trust,

11     and fear forced all sides to erect barricades and establish check-points

12     in areas where they were the majority.  Initially people thought that the

13     problems would be resolved by agreement, but when the barricades and

14     clashes started, most people began to relocate of their own accord to

15     areas where they were in majority and where they thought they would be

16     safer.  Population relocation took place on all sides throughout the war,

17     but this was merely and solely a result of the security problems arising

18     from the chaos.

19             The Crisis Staffs existed in Serbian municipalities.  They were

20     created because of the serious situation in the municipalities and

21     throughout Republika Srpska.  The Crisis Staff united the most important

22     departments, politics, the army, and the police.  Similarly, the

23     War Presidencies were a form of organising government in the emerging

24     situation and they had no specific role, particularly not in regard to

25     planning the persecution of non-Serbs.


Page 43583

 1             At some point in June 1992, the Crisis Staff was disbanded in

 2     Vogosca and other Serbian municipalities.  The War Commission was formed

 3     and civilian organs of government were established.  The commission was

 4     formed in response to exceptionally difficult communication.  Radio

 5     communication was difficult to establish.  Between the first armed

 6     clashes in mid-1993 -- clashes 1992 until 1993, Vogosca had no telephone

 7     communications or electricity.  The commission was a point of contact

 8     between the Republika Srpska Presidency and the government of the local

 9     authorities.

10             Parts of Vogosca were constantly under fire from Muslim snipers.

11     Several people were killed and wounded.  The surrounding Muslim positions

12     were dominant and overlooked most of Vogosca.  Muslim forces largely

13     benefitted from this advantage.  No one in the Serbian side conducted a

14     systematic campaign of shelling or sniping intended to inflict

15     indiscriminate suffering of the civilian population.  It would have been

16     difficult for the Serbian forces in its territory to do this because of

17     the position.

18             As soon as Mr. Nikola Poplasen discovered the existence of places

19     of detention, he wrote a letter to the minister of justice for these

20     facilities to be inspected and integrated into the Republika Srpska

21     judicial system.  The RS leadership agreed that these issues should be

22     dealt with in the manner prescribed by law and that this could not be a

23     question dealt with by anyone in their own way.  The Serbian leadership

24     advocated that war was conducted while adhering to the international

25     standards regulating this area, including the Geneva Protocols.


Page 43584

 1             There were volunteers operating in Vogosca.  The procedure for

 2     receiving volunteers is regulated by law.  They were all under the

 3     command of the VRS.  The Serbian leadership and President Karadzic argued

 4     for all Serbian forces to be placed under a single command.  Individual

 5     incidents did occur, but this was not the result of systematic or

 6     organised activity, nor was it with approval or knowledge of Serbian

 7     authorities.

 8             There was a law on abandoned property in Republika Srpska and the

 9     Serbian municipality authorities worked in accordance with it.  This law

10     was in force and was applied throughout the war.  The intention was for

11     the property to be preserved.  There was a desire to prevent it being at

12     the disposal of individuals and groups, and thus endeavours were made to

13     regulate this issue by law.  All the practical actions that were

14     implemented, whether with deprivation or limitation of rights, related to

15     and were equally applied to everyone, regardless of their ethnic or other

16     affiliation.

17             Dr. Karadzic advocated the fight for truth and justice and for

18     the rights of other -- that others had.  In mid-1992, Mr. Nikola Poplasen

19     insisted on full reunification with the RSK.  Since actual unification

20     did not take place, he spoke with Dr. Karadzic, who explained that not

21     one great power stood behind the Serbs and that Nikola Poplasen's

22     radicalism was misguided, which further deepened the differences in their

23     views.  Dr. Karadzic's democratic approach and patience, even when an

24     interlocutor's arguments were weak and unconvincing, led Nikola Poplasen

25     to conclude that he was a non-authoritative -- that he was not a leader

 


Page 43585

 1     that could entrench his authority at the required level.

 2             Nikola Poplasen was an adviser in the Presidency of

 3     Republika Srpska, and no one ever conceived, organised or issued tasks

 4     for anyone to be persecuted based on their ethnicity.

 5             And that is a short summary.  At that moment I do not have

 6     questions for President Poplasen.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, in his statement Mr. Poplasen stated

 8     that he was appointed as commissioner of the Republika Srpska Presidency

 9     for Vogosca municipality.  If you could clarify with the witness whether

10     it's related to the War Commission he referred to and where he worked.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Mr. President, shall I repeat this question or you were paying

13     attention?

14        A.   I understood the question.  It was addressed to you but I can

15     answer to be of assistance.

16             The commission was formed as a link between the War Presidency of

17     Republika Srpska and they government of Republika Srpska, and it had no

18     other role than to co-ordinate the work of civilian authorities in local

19     communities, in municipalities, perhaps to interpret some decisions of

20     the government and the Presidency, to point out shortcomings on the

21     ground, and suggest solutions.  And in addition to the commissions,

22     therefore, there existed civilian authorities that did their job.  The

23     War Commission did not have the powers to replace them, except in those

24     cases when those organs did not exist, were unable to meet or to operate;

25     and in those cases, the War Commission had the power to take decisions


Page 43586

 1     that were in their competence.  Such cases happened, but as far as I know

 2     not in Vogosca.  In Vogosca, throughout the war, there was a municipal

 3     government that did its job.  I believe this would be the short answer.

 4        Q.   Can you explain where you physically sat, where you worked, in

 5     which period?

 6        A.   In June I would go to Vogosca in the morning and return to Pale

 7     in the evening.  After Vidovdan I stayed in the Park Hotel in Vogosca and

 8     I usually worked in an office in the Municipal Assembly, next to the

 9     office of the president of the Executive Board.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Did you ever visit an institution in the Serbian

11     municipality of Rajlovac, in particular any detention facility?

12        A.   Never, not one.  In Rajlovac, I went only to the central

13     warehouse of the Red Cross to pick up some packages that I left to some

14     starving people on my way back from Rajlovac to Pale.  A friend of mine

15     worked there, and I also met with a commissioner in Rajlovac, but not

16     even in an office.  We met as friends outside.  I didn't visit any other

17     institutions and I was not in contact with any military or other bodies

18     in Rajlovac.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If this is satisfactory, I have no

20     further questions.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

22             I noted that Mr. Karadzic addressed you as "President."  Is it

23     related to your position in law faculty now?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, the title of the president of

25     the republic is for -- means for life that you can be addressed as

 


Page 43587

 1     "President."

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps I owe you an explanation.

 3     Since it goes beyond the period of the indictment, I did not insist on

 4     it, but Mr. Nikola Poplasen was the elected president of Republika Srpska

 5     in 1998, I believe, and on.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 7             Yes.  Yes, Mr. Poplasen, as you have noted, your evidence in

 8     chief in this case has been admitted in writing, i.e., via your written

 9     statement instead of -- in lieu of your oral testimony.  Now you'll be

10     cross-examined by the representative of the Office of the Prosecutor.  Do

11     you understand that, sir?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

15                           Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

16        Q.   Good morning, Professor Poplasen.

17        A.   Good morning, Madam.

18        Q.   I'd like to start out by asking you just a few simple questions

19     that perhaps you can confirm very briefly.  You've never been a member of

20     the SDS party; correct?

21        A.   Yes, that's correct, I was never a member.

22        Q.   And in 1994 you were proclaimed a Chetnik Vojvoda; correct?

23        A.   Correct.

24        Q.   And after a period of time in office as president of the

25     Republika Srpska, you were removed from that office by the


Page 43588

 1     High Representative; correct?

 2        A.   Correct.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Now, just to turn to your written statement, in

 4     paragraph 21 - and Dr. Karadzic alluded to it in the summary of your

 5     evidence - you described Karadzic as not being an authoritative leader

 6     and someone who couldn't entrench his authority at the required level.

 7     But, Professor, seven years ago when you came to testify in defence of

 8     Mr. Krajisnik, I noted that during your evidence in chief you described

 9     Dr. Karadzic's influence as "important" and "decisive."  And that's at

10     transcript page 20994, lines 11 and 12 of your evidence in the Krajisnik

11     case.

12             That's how you described him seven years ago; right?

13        A.   I suppose so, but I would have to refresh my memory, if that's

14     how you read my evidence in the Krajisnik case.  Is that it?

15        Q.   It is.  And I could show you the transcript page, Professor, but

16     it's in English.  I don't know if you're able to read English and I could

17     read you the passage where you said that --

18             JUDGE KWON:  Why don't we upload it.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  That would be fine.  That's 65 ter number --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You don't have to.  You don't have

21     to.  I take your word for it.  You don't have to read it.

22             MS. EDGERTON:

23        Q.   And also in 2006, you answered a question from one of the Judges

24     in the proceedings against Mr. Krajisnik and it was from His Honour

25     Judge Hanoteau, and the question related to the relationship between


Page 43589

 1     Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik.  And you said, in contrast to what you

 2     said in your statement, that Mr. Karadzic was not only president of the

 3     republic, but also president of the SDS, the ruling party, which had

 4     absolute power.

 5             So that's what you said at the time; correct?

 6        A.   All that is true, but I haven't yet heard a question.  I suppose

 7     a question will follow.

 8        Q.   Now, in addition to this, rather than being a patient man, as you

 9     said of Dr. Karadzic in your statement at paragraph 21, in 2006 you said

10     the following:

11             "Mr. Karadzic hailed from the Dinara area which has this typical

12     mind-set which is quite violent.  So this is not just typical of him,

13     it's rather typical of the area, and there's general agreement about

14     this."

15             So that's what you said at that time; correct?

16        A.   No.  I certainly didn't use the term "nasilan," but "violentan" I

17     suppose it's translated the same way.

18        Q.   Perhaps we could have a look at the page.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  If we could call it up, please.  As I had

20     indicated previously, 65 ter number 25650.  And this is at transcript

21     page 20993, and that might help any translation issues if we see the

22     context within which the remark was made.  Thank you.

23        Q.   Now if we can go down to line 14, I'll read you what that passage

24     says --

25             JUDGE KWON:  Let's read the question first.


Page 43590

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  Absolutely.

 2        Q.   The question you were given from Mr. Krajisnik's Defence counsel

 3     was:

 4             "Before we move away, so to speak, from Pale, you have described

 5     how you were in what I will call, using a colloquial English expression,

 6     the corridors of power for the short time in 1992.  I would like you,

 7     please, to make an assessment of some of the people you rubbed shoulders

 8     with there and their influence, as far as you were concerned, with events

 9     and how they controlled events.

10             "Firstly, Radovan Karadzic ..."

11             And your answer was:

12             "Generally speaking, numerous social and psychological studies of

13     the populations of the Balkans indicate something that should be noted

14     here.  Mr. Karadzic hailed from the Dinara area which has this typical

15     mind-set which is quite violent.  So this is not just typical of him, it

16     is rather typical of the area, and there is general agreement about this.

17     I mention this because I wish to say that Mr. Karadzic was a typical

18     representative of this mind-set characterised by large ideas and

19     ambitions, more interested in visions than in practical problems."

20             That was your characterisation of Dr. Karadzic in 2006?

21        A.   May I say something about this?

22             JUDGE KWON:  By all means, yes.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see, the whole thing revolves

24     around the fact that I remember every word I said seven years later, and

25     you see in this line it says "violent," whereas the interpreters here


Page 43591

 1     still say "nasilan."  And "violentan," according to our Jovan Cvijic, our

 2     author, corresponds to a term which has nothing to do with violence.

 3     This is about a type of temperament that can express itself as I

 4     explained before, when Mr. Karadzic was prone to thunder when something

 5     was done wrong.  It was not about violence as a feature, as a character

 6     trait, as a violent personality.

 7             And if I can add, I see the comment of the Prosecutor in the same

 8     light.  Where she finds contradictions, I don't see any whatsoever.  This

 9     was about my harmonious view.  I was being asked here how I saw things,

10     and I answered that Mr. Karadzic was too soft and too liberal.  It is

11     understood that it's from the point of view of my radical tastes.

12             I'll try to be as brief as I can and finish.

13             For example, I would never chair the meetings of the Main Board

14     as he had.  Those were endless discussions.  All the members - and there

15     were about a hundred - sometimes took the floor two or three times.  No

16     offence to any of the members, but even those who did not have any

17     opinion took the floor and had something to say; and President Karadzic

18     allowed it.  He should have had more authority in a war-time situation

19     on -- in my opinion.

20             Authority is not used in the same sense in the Serbian language,

21     in the sense of power.  It is more used in the sense of good reputation,

22     renown, somebody who commands authority and respect.  In a war-time

23     situation, decisions should have been taken more firmly, more quickly,

24     without entering into any co-operation with the enemies of the Serbian

25     people, without restoring your trust into somebody who had already


Page 43592

 1     tricked you many times before.

 2             That is the context.  That is a comment that describes my

 3     characterisation of him as too democratic.  I believe that a number of

 4     people would not find it too democratic, but it's not these people who

 5     are answering your questions now, it's me.

 6        Q.   But what I still don't understand, Professor, is that in 2006,

 7     seven years closer to the events we're talking about, you still described

 8     Dr. Karadzic's influence as being important and decisive and described

 9     the SDS as being the party in absolute power, in complete contrast to the

10     characterisation you made in paragraph 21 of your statement.  You spoke

11     of Dr. Karadzic as a man in authority.

12        A.   May I?  After all is said is done, all I believe is that you

13     don't understand.  Everything else is clear.  Absolute power means that

14     they had the absolute majority.  I believe that needs no further proof.

15     The SDS had all the important posts under its control.  It had influence.

16     I just explained to you.  If he convinces the entire Main Board after

17     that exhausting discussions, then the positions expressed by Dr. Karadzic

18     are implemented.  There are no other parties.  There are no other

19     influences.  All the members of the Main Board, including the majority of

20     the Assembly and all the officials, after all the arguments and

21     exhausting debates, he succeeded in convincing them all of his ideas, in

22     getting them to accept them.  So I don't see why my statement that he was

23     authoritative is in dispute.  He had influence.  The SDS had won the

24     elections in a perfectly democratic way by winning the overwhelming

25     majority, and it was therefore democratic.  Why I minded these things I


Page 43593

 1     already said, and I told you what my objections to his style were.

 2             It was a constant weakness of the Serbian Democratic Party, this

 3     endless procrastination in the democratic process, although they believed

 4     that everything has to be perfectly clear, that all the arguments have to

 5     be put on the table, and that before implementation begins everyone has

 6     to agree.  My own party worked a bit differently, and from that point of

 7     view I emphasised that my own practice was to allow people to take the

 8     floor if they really have something to say, not just to speak for the

 9     sake of speaking, of having fun.  As for repetitions of things that have

10     been said already, repeating common places from John Locke to our day,

11     that can be left for later, talks over coffee.  That was my point.

12             But I didn't mean in my objection that he was a violent man.

13     This was an interpretation of a term I used, and I can see that it's even

14     written in English here "violent."

15        Q.   Professor --

16        A.   "Violent" is something that denotes violence in the streets,

17     something that is obvious, not something of theoretic relevance.  My

18     objection was not meant like that; it was meant entirely differently.

19        Q.   Thank you for the clarification.  I want to ask you -- actually,

20     after this clarification, I want to put to you a remark that

21     Jovan Tintor, who was the SDS president and the head of the Crisis Staff,

22     you know, for the Serbian municipality of Vogosca, a remark that he made

23     at a session of the Assembly of the Serbian People in April 1995.  And he

24     was talking about the period before the war.  He said, and I'll quote:

25             "I was ordered to create military formations.  Perhaps you do not


Page 43594

 1     know it, General," because he was addressing General Mladic, "but I want

 2     you to know this:  I went from municipality to municipality and created

 3     military formations on order from my president, and this is true.  Here

 4     are people who know this to be the truth and have papers to prove it.  We

 5     created brigade commanders down to platoon commanders, all this was done

 6     by the SDS."

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  And that's at P970, English page 298 and B/C/S

 8     page 261.

 9        Q.   Now, you knew Mr. Tintor at the time.  Professor, this is an

10     example, what I've just read you, of Dr. Karadzic making his authority

11     felt at the local level, isn't it?

12        A.   I don't know what this has to do with my evidence.  A statement

13     made by some Tintor somewhere about something, and I hear it for the

14     first time, by the way --

15        Q.   Well --

16        A.   I'm not saying that he had not said that.  It's just that I hear

17     it for the first time and I can't comment.

18        Q.   Well, you specifically said in paragraph 21 that Dr. Karadzic was

19     unable to entrench his authority at the required level, and I've just

20     read to you the words of a Vogosca municipal official who said that at

21     the time it counted, Dr. Karadzic effectively made that authority felt.

22     He went from municipality to municipality and created military formations

23     on order from his president, that's Dr. Karadzic.

24        A.   I can comment if you accept that I'm hearing this for the first

25     time.  I can comment but it doesn't mean that I witnessed it --


Page 43595

 1        Q.   Well --

 2        A.   -- I suppose that Jovan --

 3        Q.   -- Professor, my question was:  These words are an example of

 4     Dr. Karadzic making his authority felt at the local level, aren't they?

 5        A.   No.  If I may tell you why, I will.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes --

 7             MS. EDGERTON:

 8        Q.   Please.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  -- please proceed, Mr. Poplasen.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This statement by Jovan Tintor, I

11     didn't see him around at that time or during the war either.  When I came

12     to Vogosca, he had left.  I knew him before the war.  Jovan Tintor was a

13     house painter, the one who paints houses.  He felt a need to build some

14     sort of authority for himself rather than for Dr. Karadzic.  I'm telling

15     you what my comment about this is.  He probably used the opportunity of

16     attention or confrontation with General Mladic in order to prove himself

17     more important than his officers.  He didn't have any opportunity to

18     command brigades or battalions; that can only happen in cartoons.  And it

19     sounds like a construction which should now be taken as a fact in order

20     to explain what was going on.  I know what was going on on the ground.

21     Mladic and his generals were so authoritative -- authoritarian, actually,

22     in the military sense, in the sense of army subordination.  Any

23     opposition was eliminated.

24             Tintor was no officer; he's a house painter.  The civilian

25     authorities did not have any military competence and Tintor's statement


Page 43596

 1     could only serve for him to show off, like a peacock when it spreads its

 2     tail, at this meeting, so that somebody would like him, so that he would

 3     expand his ego and perhaps build his authority among the civilian

 4     authorities.  I can't view that in any different way.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:

 6        Q.   So --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we have a break?

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  Um --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  You have -- yes, a follow-up question.  Yes, please.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes, but given the length of time the answer might

11     take, perhaps it's better to pause now, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

13             We'll have a break for half an hour and resume at 11.05.

14                           --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 11.08 a.m.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Ms. Edgerton.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

18        Q.   Before we move on, Professor, I just wanted to stay with the

19     statement by Mr. Tintor we were talking about before the break, where you

20     said he didn't have the opportunity to command brigades and battalions

21     because that only happens in cartoons and that the civilians had no

22     military competence.

23             Professor, shortly after Mr. Tintor made that statement in the

24     Bosnian Serb Assembly session, the 50th Session in April 1995,

25     Dr. Karadzic actually responded.  And I'll tell you -- I'll quote to you


Page 43597

 1     what Dr. Karadzic said.  On pages 323 and 324 of the English translation

 2     of P970, Dr. Karadzic said:

 3             "It was the SDS which organised the people and created the army.

 4     It was an army.  Together with the police, those who were the armed

 5     forces of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, they created

 6     the space, liberated, and created the space."

 7             And he goes on to say:

 8             "We decided to set up the TO, the Serbian brigades, which were

 9     indeed led by the SDS but not as a party army, but as a people's army,

10     for not everyone dared to put himself at the head of an illegal brigade

11     and oppose the Green Berets, like Jovan Tintor, who impoverished himself

12     in this war and we're quick to label Jovan Tintor who gave everything for

13     this party, for this people.  We're quick to call him a profiteer or

14     something like that."

15             So, Professor, Dr. Karadzic himself confirmed what Mr. Tintor

16     said, so it seems that you're not only wrong in your assertion that the

17     civilian authorities had no military competence, you were also -- your

18     assertion that Mr. Tintor had no military command was speculation; isn't

19     that the case?

20        A.   No.

21        Q.   Would you like to explain?

22        A.   Of course.  If I had been in the situation which Dr. Karadzic

23     was, when did you say, 1995, I would have had the same thing, only I

24     would have put a little bit more of edge into it because he referred to

25     the laws that were then in force.  In the indictment you have a


Page 43598

 1     combination of provisions about Territorial Defence with a newly formed

 2     army.  The obligation of the civilian authorities in every crisis

 3     situation is to mobilise the so-called Territorial Defence.  It was a

 4     part of the constitution of Bosnia and Herzegovina and Yugoslavia;

 5     there's nothing problematic about that --

 6        Q.   I'm sorry, Professor --

 7        A.   You placed the emphasis on the first several sentences, claiming

 8     that the last sentence in Dr. Karadzic's speech is marginal, whereas it's

 9     crucial.  This has to do with the Territorial Defence, which was set up

10     in accordance with regulations in Bosnia-Herzegovina and the regulations

11     of the Republic of Yugoslavia, which was then still in existence.  This

12     Territorial Defence has certain obligations and tasks which were defined

13     by the law, inter alia, it is organised for various purposes --

14        Q.   Professor, are you saying that when Dr. Karadzic confirmed that

15     the Serbian brigades were led by the SDS and that Jovan Tintor put

16     himself at the head of a brigade to oppose the Green Berets, are you

17     saying that when Dr. Karadzic confirmed that he was lying?

18        A.   No.  The Serbian Democratic Party was part of the authorities;

19     that's what he had in mind, part of the state authorities, not as the

20     Serbian Democratic Party.  He's here so let him explain what he was doing

21     at the time.  I'm not his Defence counsel.

22             As a part of the authorities, it was their duty to organise the

23     Territorial Defence, not as the Serbian Democratic Party.  And as for the

24     fact that he shortened the discussion in his speeches, you don't think

25     that he could read all the provisions of the law to the deputies and


Page 43599

 1     teach them the ABC of law --

 2        Q.   Professor --

 3        A.   -- as someone who was participating in power -- yes, please.

 4        Q.   I'm very --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  I can't find your passage in the -- pages referred

 6     to.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  I'm sorry, Your Honour, that I've given the wrong

 8     page numbers.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Please check.  I don't know.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  I will absolutely do that.  I miss my colleague

11     beside me, but I will get back to you with that as soon as possible.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

13             MS. EDGERTON:

14        Q.   Professor, if I could move on because I think -- with respect,

15     Professor, I think we're getting far and away outside of the question

16     that I've asked you.  And I'd like to go into another area of your

17     statement and that's at paragraphs 5 and 6, where you were asked about

18     the role, if any, of the municipal Crisis Staffs and War Presidencies in

19     Serb-sought and Serb-controlled areas of Bosnia and Herzegovina in the

20     persecution of non-Serbs.  And also related to the area I'm going to deal

21     with now is paragraph 15, where you said that any restrictions imposed

22     were implemented equally to everyone.  And before I ask you some -- show

23     you some documents in that regard, I'd like to go back to your Krajisnik

24     testimony in front of this Tribunal in 2006.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  And I'll actually ask for the page to be pulled


Page 43600

 1     up, that's 65 ter number 25650, page 21097.

 2        Q.   There, during your testimony as a Defence witness in the

 3     Krajisnik trial, His Honour Judge Orie asked you:

 4             "Did ethnic cleansing," and that's at line 6.

 5             "Did ethnic cleansing occur in the territory in -- under the

 6     control of the Bosnian Serb forces in 1992?"

 7             And your answer was "no."

 8             So your position in 2006 in front of this Tribunal was that no

 9     ethnic cleansing occurred in territory controlled by Bosnian Serb forces

10     in 1992; right?  We see it on the page there in front of us.

11        A.   Well, you see, but my answer is not as you said.  It says here

12     "in my opinion."  Not just "no" and nothing but.

13        Q.   That's fine.  That's correct, that reflected your position in

14     2006; right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Thank you.  We'll move on to some documents now.  I'd like to

17     show you, Professor, P2638.  It's a decision dated 23 July 1992 by the

18     Celinac War Presidency and it's distributed to the local SJB and the

19     military command, which we see later in the document, as well as all

20     households.  And this decision, Professor, gives the non-Serb population

21     on the territory of the municipality special status.

22             If we could have a look at Article 5 on page 2 of this document

23     in both languages, I think, we see in Article 5 that non-Serbs are under

24     a curfew between 4.00 and 6.00 p.m. [sic].  They can't linger in public

25     places.  They can't bathe in the rivers, hunt, they can't fish.  They


Page 43601

 1     can't gather in groups of more than three men.  They can't sell real

 2     estate or exchange flats without permission from the competent organ.

 3     But, you see, Article 4, immediately above that, says they can leave so

 4     long as they all go, the entire household goes.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Did it apply to all non-Serb

 6     population, Ms. Edgerton?

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  If we could go over to the Article 1, Your Honour,

 8     because you see clause 5 refers to the citizens from Article 1.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  The decision refers specifically to the status of

11     the non-Serbian population of Celinac municipality, and Article 1

12     specifically refers as well to non-Serb population of Celinac

13     municipality.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Not limited to only the individuals referred to in

15     Article 2?

16             MS. EDGERTON:  If we go back over to Article 5, we see that

17     that's not the case.  And an examination of the document in full,

18     Your Honour, actually shows specific references to the particular

19     citizens identified in Article 2 in any number of other clauses, apart

20     from the references that we're dealing with here which refer to

21     Article 1.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

23             Please continue.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

25        Q.   So, Professor, so first of all this decision - and it's not from


Page 43602

 1     the military, it's from the War Presidency - specifically applies to

 2     non-Serbs who are restricted in any number of ways that have nothing to

 3     do with military operations.  So, Professor, your evidence that any

 4     restrictions were implemented equally to everyone is actually completely

 5     incorrect and this document shows that.

 6        A.   What is the question?

 7        Q.   This is a discriminatory decision and it discriminates against

 8     non-Serbs; correct?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   Would you like to explain why you feel that?

11        A.   You can see that it says in Article 4 that the competent organs

12     shall provide the necessary documentation and ensure safe passage.  The

13     necessary documentation probably implies the state-issued documents

14     issued by the municipalities.  I suppose, because I wasn't in Celinac at

15     the time, the safe passage probably implies the route which would not be

16     threatened by anyone and which would enable them to pass along a route of

17     their choice.

18             And as for Article 5, I don't know, perhaps it all has to do with

19     some situations in Celinac where the idea was to protect these people.

20     Maybe there were groups which were attacking non-Serbian populations so

21     it was necessary to save the people's lives.  I don't know --

22        Q.   So, Professor --

23        A.   -- I'm just speculating.  You presented this document to me and

24     offered just one possible interpretation; however, there are many more

25     possible interpretations.


Page 43603

 1        Q.   Professor, I'm not going to ask you to speculate; I didn't ask

 2     you to speculate and I don't want a speculative answer, with respect.

 3             So what we're going to do is we're going to move on to another

 4     document.  I'd like to take us, actually, to 65 ter number 05119.  It's a

 5     document dated 14 July 1992, and it's an extract from the minutes of the

 6     War Staff for Sanski Most municipality.  Item 1 of this document records

 7     the decision of the War Staff that public sector employees of Serbian

 8     nationality whose war time assignment takes them away from their

 9     work-place are on paid leave, while Croats and Muslims are on unpaid

10     leave.

11             So, Professor, this is not a decision affecting everyone equally,

12     is it?  Croats and Muslims are treated differently, aren't they?

13        A.   Judging by this document, it is so.

14        Q.   That's a discriminatory decision, isn't it?

15        A.   Judging by this document -- I'm speculating.  You keep asking

16     me -- first you presented to me Celinac, then Sanski Most, where I've

17     never been in my life, and you insist that I should speculate.  I don't

18     know what other answer is possible.  Neither was I there, nor do I know

19     these people, nor am I familiar with this.  How could I testify about

20     this on the basis of my experience?

21             You can write whatever you like and ask me whether this deserves

22     to be condemned.  If it was like this on the ground, then it does deserve

23     to be condemned, but I don't know what this has to do -- at least I don't

24     understand what this has to do with my testimony.

25        Q.   Well, your testimony, your testimony -- in paragraph 15 of your


Page 43604

 1     statement you were specifically asked whether Serb authorities in the RS

 2     imposed or maintained discriminatory measures against the non-Serb

 3     population.  And your response was that -- was no, was that any

 4     restrictions that were implemented applied equally to everyone.  This

 5     document shows your assertion is incorrect, you're wrong?

 6        A.   No, you're coming back to it again.  You asked me, judging by my

 7     experience and in my view -- well, you want to refute my experience by a

 8     document which is completely independent from this experience and which

 9     was created several hundred kilometres away.  So other witnesses will

10     have to confirm this.

11        Q.   You gave evidence in the Krajisnik case, Professor, that through

12     1992, you travelled across the breadth of Bosnian Serb-held territory

13     establishing the Republika Srpska.

14             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry, just -- I have to intervene.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Of course.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Why don't we upload his statement, and in the

17     meantime I would like his statement, hard copy, to be provided to him.

18     Paragraph 15.

19             Do you see your statement, paragraph 15?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  Yes.

21             JUDGE KWON:  If you could have a quick look.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is.

23             JUDGE KWON:  It is in general to the effect that there was no

24     discrimination, in particular the last sentence reads like this:

25             "The only decisions that do perhaps exist are those relating to


Page 43605

 1     curfews, issued by the military organs, but these were valid for

 2     everyone."

 3             But the document you saw in relation to Celinac was a bit

 4     different.  If that was true, then your statement is not correct; do you

 5     agree with it?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This statement of mine has to do

 7     with my experience in Vogosca, and I can't assess and evaluate events

 8     which took place far away from where I was and far away from my

 9     experience.

10             JUDGE KWON:  But the question was formulated as regards the whole

11     municipalities or Republika Srpska as a whole.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  This primarily has to do

13     with Vogosca and my experience there.  These generalisations follow from

14     my experience in Vogosca.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

16             Let's continue.

17             MS. EDGERTON:

18        Q.   So, Professor, now that you've limited your evidence in regard

19     to -- in paragraph 15 in regard to the situation in Vogosca, perhaps we

20     could go over to paragraphs 5 and 6 of your statement --

21             JUDGE KWON:  I take it you have your statement with you now?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

23             MS. EDGERTON:

24        Q.   The question you were asked in paragraph 5 was whether

25     Crisis Staffs existed and operated at any point in the Serbian


Page 43606

 1     municipalities, and, as far as you know, whether they served as the means

 2     for the permanent removal of non-Serbs from areas of Bosnia-Herzegovina

 3     which the Bosnian Serbs claimed as theirs through various means.

 4             Is your answer also in relation to question 5 limited to the

 5     situation in Vogosca?

 6        A.   Yes, it is generalised, as I said a little while ago, on the

 7     basis of my experience in Vogosca, to the extent that the listener wants

 8     to hear that it's generalised, but it originates from this particular

 9     experience.  And in several places you can see "according to my

10     knowledge," "according to my experience," that can be found in my answer.

11     "As far as I know."

12        Q.   Well, in paragraph 6 of your statement, you were similarly asked

13     whether you had any information on the reasons for establishing

14     War Presidencies in the municipalities and how they functioned.  And you

15     didn't qualify your answer in that paragraph in any regard whatsoever.

16     You said:

17             "As with the Crisis Staffs, the War Presidencies were a form of

18     organising government in the emerging situation and they had no specific

19     role, particularly not in regard to planning the persecution of the

20     non-Serb population."

21             Are you now here limiting your answer to this question to the

22     situation in Vogosca municipality during the period of time in which you

23     served as war commissioner?

24        A.   Yes, that is my experience.  Of course, it is my rational

25     supposition that the Crisis Staff and then the War Presidency -- or,


Page 43607

 1     rather, the war commissioner's office in Vogosca was the outcome of a

 2     document which served as the basis for establishing Crisis Staffs and war

 3     commissions in other municipalities as well.  In accordance with the

 4     principle of analogy, the events should have been similar in other

 5     municipalities, but I cannot confirm that on the basis of my own

 6     experience but only on the basis of the assumption that others honoured

 7     the documents issued by the Presidency and the government and that they

 8     worked accordingly.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  Your indulgence for just a moment, Your Honours.

10        Q.   So when you in your statement in paragraph 5 said:

11             "Population relocation took place on all sides throughout the

12     war, but this was merely and solely a result of the security problems

13     arising from the chaos," do you similarly now limit that generalisation

14     to refer solely to the situation in Vogosca municipality?

15        A.   No.  I know for certain that this was taking place in most of the

16     territory of the republic, that people chose a place of residence where,

17     justifiably or not, they felt more secure, more safe, where they had

18     different prospects where they could find jobs and various other things.

19     I was one of them.  I suppose I know why I left Sarajevo.

20        Q.   Well, since this generalisation is -- well, since you've not

21     limited this to Vogosca municipality, perhaps I could ask you a question

22     about that.  Your written evidence actually says you went up to

23     Banja Luka in 1993, and maybe we can talk for a minute about what was

24     going on while you were there in the city.

25             Professor, this Chamber has received evidence that throughout


Page 43608

 1     1994, Bosnian Serb authorities were taking part in a campaign of

 2     continuing human rights abuses of minorities in Banja Luka from February

 3     right through to September.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  And that's -- that evidence is found in

 5     Exhibits D3492 at page 4, paragraph 14; P5423; and P2087.

 6        Q.   And, Professor, in September, over 2.500 Muslim civilians, we've

 7     heard, were forcefully expelled from Bijeljina and Janja and almost

 8     1.000 similar departures took place from Banja Luka to Croatia.  So the

 9     evidence is that this was a practice that had been underway for at least

10     eight months and it was at a level that attracted international

11     attention, and despite repeated protests -- the policy and the expulsions

12     actually accelerated.  So, Professor, over two years into the war, when

13     the RS institutions were functioning, these forced transfers aren't a

14     reflection of chaos, are they?

15        A.   Yes, I can confirm that with the example of Sarajevo.  There, in

16     this way, as you describe, more than 100.000 people left the city.

17     That's closer to my experience.  As for Banja Luka, I was in opposition

18     at the time and I worked at the university so I didn't follow what was

19     going on.  But I did experience this, so it's a bit of a problem where

20     you choose to focus your attention.  We can investigate why more than

21     100.000 Serbs were forced to leave Sarajevo.

22        Q.   My -- my question --

23        A.   Or perhaps they --

24        Q.   My question was specifically related to the expulsion of over

25     1.000 people in Banja Luka in September 1994, Professor.  My question --


Page 43609

 1     because you were there at that time.  My question has nothing to do with

 2     Sarajevo.

 3        A.   Well, I was sitting in my office in Banja Luka at the faculty of

 4     law, but I had images of Sarajevo.  That was my experience too.

 5        Q.   Well --

 6        A.   My answer is a direct answer to your question, not in terms of

 7     your expectations, no, but it is responsive to your question.

 8        Q.   And now, having touched on that, I'm going to move on to

 9     something you discussed at paragraphs 10 and 11 of your statement.  And

10     there you talked about detention facilities in Vogosca, and you discuss

11     those in the Krajisnik case as well, during your testimony there, and

12     that was in the Krajisnik case in specific reference to the facility you

13     visited, Sonja's.

14             So, Professor, in the Krajisnik case you confirmed that the

15     people you saw being detained there were civilians; correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And in your evidence in the Krajisnik case, you agreed that the

18     detention of civilians was a crime; correct?

19        A.   I don't know how you use this notion of captivity.  I just said

20     that I remember my testimony.  I said that they had not been locked up.

21     I haven't got that paper here with me, my testimony in Krajisnik, but I

22     remember that I described the situation as people walking about freely in

23     front of the building and that my impression was that they were waiting

24     for transportation or something like that.  There was no key, that people

25     stopped to have breakfast or tea or something like that, whereas you keep


Page 43610

 1     referring to captivity.  This was a facility where people came from

 2     different directions, and then they were probably -- well, that was not

 3     my affair.  I just stopped by to have breakfast and then I went on.  It

 4     wasn't my job to record that, to process that or to make any decisions;

 5     however, what I saw is along those lines.  I don't think that

 6     "imprisonment" or "captivity" would be the right word; that means that

 7     somebody had been had been arrested and locked up, and that was not the

 8     case there.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we have a look again at the transcript of

10     the Professor's evidence in the Krajisnik case, please; 65 ter 25650 at

11     page 21138.

12        Q.   Professor, at lines 11 to 15 of this document, His Honour

13     Judge Hanoteau asked you whether -- and in specific reference to Sonja's

14     whether:

15             "For you, was the fact of being deprived freedom of your

16     citizens, if it wasn't legal, was this for you a particularly important

17     crime?"

18             And your answer was:

19             "Yes, it is a crime."

20             Those were your words; right?

21        A.   I don't see my entire statement here.  You see, in part it had to

22     do with the suggestion that there were other places of detention in

23     Vogosca, not the Sonja facility that you're referring to.  I assume that

24     this refers to these other places, this question, and then I stand by

25     that answer that I gave.


Page 43611

 1             My reaction was that I did not visit these facilities and I did

 2     not know where they were.  My reaction was to the fact that I may have

 3     heard that this existed, I informed the Ministry of Justice, and I asked

 4     for that to be integrated into the legal system, because if that were not

 5     done, then that would be a crime indeed.

 6        Q.   And you reported that, as you've indicated in your statement, not

 7     only to the Ministry of Justice, you reported that to the Presidency,

 8     didn't you?  You reported the detention of civilians at the location you

 9     saw to the Presidency; right?

10        A.   No, I did not report detention.  I said that this existed.  As

11     far as I knew, the facility that was supposed to be a prison, although it

12     was not part of legal system, the Presidency should find a solution so

13     that the Ministry of Justice could integrate it into the legal system.  I

14     never said that I went to that facility that constituted a prison,

15     because I was duty-bound to trust my co-workers.  If they told me that

16     that exists, then it existed, and then I reacted in this way.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we see P2371, please.

18        Q.   Professor, do you recognise your letter to the war-time

19     Presidency of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina about the prison

20     in Vogosca?  Paragraph 3.

21        A.   Yes, I recognise that.  This just confirms what I said a moment

22     ago.

23        Q.   You reported the existence of this facility to the Presidency,

24     that's what this letter says, and you recommended the Ministry of Justice

25     be assigned with the task of integrating it; right?


Page 43612

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   So, Professor, this Chamber has received evidence that after the

 3     date of this letter, civilians who were detained at Sonja's were

 4     transferred to another facility in the village of Svrake, Planjo's house,

 5     and they were detained there for months.  And during those months, they

 6     were repeatedly taken by Serb forces for work and that work included

 7     doing labour on the front line and being used as human shields on the

 8     front line.  And as a result of that work in dangerous situations, people

 9     were killed and wounded.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  And that evidence, Your Honours, is found in P44,

11     P2361, P42, and those are statements, Your Honours; and documents

12     recording the use of prisoners in various situations are - and I won't

13     name all of them - P45, P1144, P2387 --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Please concentrate on asking the question.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

16        Q.   Professor, the use of civilians at dangerous front line positions

17     where they would be killed or wounded is a crime, isn't it?

18        A.   It's that way all over the world, isn't it, including Libya,

19     Iraq, Afghanistan, and so on?

20        Q.   So you agree, your answer is yes; is that correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Professor, I just want to have a look at one of the

23     documents that was associated to your witness statement that you

24     commented on, which is 1D09197, please.

25             Now, Professor, you never saw this document until you were shown


Page 43613

 1     it in preparation for your testimony here today; correct?

 2        A.   Correct.

 3        Q.   Professor, this Chamber's received evidence that these 150 people

 4     that the document refers to who were captured were captured in the attack

 5     on Svrake on 2nd of May.  They were being held in Naka's garage, which

 6     was near the Vogosca overpass, and after this order was issued, the

 7     prisoners weren't released, they were moved to Planjo's house.

 8             Professor, you commented on the document not knowing a single

 9     thing about the matters discussed on the paper in front of you; isn't

10     that the case?

11        A.   It is correct -- well, I don't know.  How come I don't know?  Of

12     course, I didn't sign this but a member of the commission, I guess I was

13     absent.  What is being insisted upon here is lawful procedure.  Now your

14     question is focused on unlawful transfer from Podvoznja [phoen] to some

15     prison.  I really don't know anything about that.  I didn't see that, I

16     don't have any knowledge about that.

17        Q.   So you can confirm that you commented on the document, not

18     knowing a single thing about it?

19        A.   I commented upon the document, not the actual events.  The

20     document was signed by a member of the commission and I was his superior,

21     and I was probably absent from Vogosca.  I was probably away.

22        Q.   Professor, the document's a cover-up.  These people were never

23     released, and you said in your statement that they were.  You said, and

24     I'll quote you, paragraph 25:

25             "It can be seen from the document that about 10 per cent of the


Page 43614

 1     people were kept for further investigation, whereas the others were

 2     brought back to their homes accompanied by security."

 3             The evidence is, Professor, that's not true.  This document's a

 4     cover-up, isn't it?

 5        A.   No, this document is supposed to be a contribution to the

 6     creation of a state based on rule of law.  Now, the fact that you are

 7     linking this to something that has nothing to do with it is something

 8     that I really have to react to.  How can this be a cover-up when the

 9     signatories of the document do not have any knowledge about certain

10     events that you are linking this to?  Things that happened even after the

11     document was created.  So you're even linking this up subsequently.  The

12     document was written up.  People were supposed to behave in a lawful way,

13     and then months later something happens and then you subsequently link

14     this to that.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have your statement, Mr. Poplasen,

16     paragraph 25?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Could you read the last sentence.  Could you read it

19     aloud, the last sentence.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 25 you said?

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was shown document 1D9197, from

23     which it can be seen that before my arrival the municipal authorities had

24     already began regulating legal status of the detainees and POWs.  It can

25     be seen from the document that about 10 per cent of the people were kept


Page 43615

 1     for further criminal investigation, whereas the others were brought back

 2     to their homes accompanied by security.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now we should take a look at --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue.

 6             Yes, my question was whether the information in the last

 7     sentence, i.e., 10 per cent being kept for further criminal investigation

 8     while remaining were brought back being accompanied by security, where

 9     did you get this information from this document?  How could it be seen

10     from this document?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it's written there.  It can

12     be seen from the document.  I'd have to look at the document.  I'd have

13     to look at these numbers.  Probably in this improvised agreement --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please read the document and let us know.

15             We can collapse it in English and blow up the B/C/S version.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

17             The prison warden is ordered to release from the prison in Svrake

18     541 persons.  The warden is duty-bound to safely transport them to their

19     destination.  20 persons remain.  As for their status, the warden will

20     take care.  The warden is duty-bound to take some written statements in

21     view of their status that they had during their stay in prison.  The

22     persons are -- well, what is written here is -- well, it says 20 persons

23     remain in prison; isn't that right?  Or if it hasn't been typed up

24     properly, there's a smudge here, maybe the number is bigger, I concluded

25     obviously that that was about 10 per cent of 1.451.  It's not that I


Page 43616

 1     calculated it specifically, that's why it says "approximately," not

 2     "exactly."

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ask for this to be spelled

 4     out precisely.  Let's have a look at the translation.  How is that

 5     written, 154?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It must be 154 because this is the

 7     letter L over here.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I'll leave it at that.

 9             Please continue, Ms. Edgerton.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes, just one small area.

11        Q.   If we could have a look, please, at another one of your

12     associated documents.  It's 65 ter number 1566.  It's an extract of an

13     interview with Rajko Koprivica, who was the head of the Executive Board

14     in Vogosca, dated 13 June 1992.  Your statement actually says July, but I

15     think we'll find that it's June.

16             MS. EDGERTON:  And if we could go over to page 6 of the English

17     translation of this document and page 2 of the B/C/S version, and on

18     page 2 we should magnify the bottom right area, if I have this correctly.

19        Q.   Now, Mr. Poplasen, in paragraph 7 of your statement, you said

20     that between the first armed clashes and the middle of 1993, Vogosca had

21     no electricity.  And in this interview, Mr. Koprivica in June of 1992 was

22     asked whether he read the daily newspaper "Nas glas" or he listened to

23     Serbian radio and watched Serbian TV.  And he said:

24             "Whenever possible I also listened to the radio," and that he

25     rarely watches TV - if we can go up to the top of the right-hand column


Page 43617

 1     on the English page - because Serbian television in -- he rarely watches

 2     Serbian TV as the reception in Vogosca is rather poor.

 3             So this is a document that you -- actually you embraced and you

 4     commented on extensively in your statement.

 5             Now, having looked at that, I want to go to one more about

 6     electricity and it's 65 ter number 25633.  It's an excerpt -- another

 7     excerpt from "Nas glas" daily newspaper in Vogosca, and it's dated

 8     9 November 1992.  And the square on the bottom right-hand side of the

 9     page in your language contains a notice from the electrical distribution

10     company asking Serbian -- citizens of the Serbian municipality of Vogosca

11     to limit their consumption of electricity as much as possible or they're

12     going to be forced to introduce power cuts reducing consumption in

13     certain areas.

14             So two documents we've just seen, one of them being a document

15     you specifically commented on, actually contradict your statement as

16     regards the lack of electricity in Vogosca completely, Mr. Poplasen.

17        A.   Well, these are not exactly documents of major importance.  I was

18     there all the time and I know with certainty that there was no

19     electricity and no hot water.

20             As for this statement made by Mr. Koprivica, there were

21     generators and they could generate electricity someplace for a certain

22     amount of time, especially if there was fuel.  Then also there were

23     batteries and there were some kind of supply systems apart from the

24     distribution network.

25             As for November and this information that you referred to,


Page 43618

 1     perhaps that was a result of my intervention to the Presidency.  You see,

 2     the Presidency wasn't supposed to report to me; I was supposed to report

 3     to them.  I wanted them to deal with the problems of Hadzici, Rajlovac,

 4     Vogosca, Ilidza, the distribution of electricity, supplies, organising

 5     economic life and so on.  I assume that this was one of the first

 6     attempts made by Elektrodistribucija for the network to start

 7     functioning.  And already in November perhaps there was power for about

 8     an hour or two.  Citizens were able to have electricity at least a little

 9     bit and still there were reductions.  Also, all the time when I went to

10     Vogosca, I know for sure that there wasn't electricity anywhere.  There

11     wasn't any hot water anywhere.  And during the night we had to make do,

12     but there was no electricity from the system.

13             As for these documents that deviate from my own experience, well,

14     good luck to them.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Could I have this last excerpt admitted as a

16     Prosecution exhibit, please, Your Honours?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6511, Your Honours.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  And if I could just have a moment to find

20     something in the transcript of previous testimony, Your Honours, I'll be

21     very brief.

22        Q.   And just to clear up the record, in fact, Mr. Poplasen, you

23     indicated that -- during your testimony in the Krajisnik case, you

24     indicated that you only visited Vogosca from time to time because of your

25     work, among other things, travelling around the country to institute or

 


Page 43619

 1     to establish the Serbian Radical Party; correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   In fact, in the Krajisnik case you said one "could say that I was

 4     there quite rarely, not really often."  And that's at transcript

 5     page 20959, line 15.  Those were your words; correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  I don't have any other questions, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.

10             Mr. Karadzic, do you have any further examination?

11             THE ACCUSED:  Very few, Excellency, very few.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Please proceed.

13                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. President, when you said that with regard to

15     the competences of the Crisis Staff and the exercise of authority that

16     you inferred on the basis of analogy, tell us this:  In some municipality

17     if things were not done as they were done in Vogosca, as prescribed by

18     the central organs, did this aberration come from the system or from

19     where?

20        A.   The way I see things and on the basis of my experience, if you

21     are referring to infractions and violations of the law, they were

22     primarily due to lack of knowledge, stubbornness, and also some criminal

23     aspirations every now and then by individuals at local level.

24        Q.   Thank you.  In the document, or rather, in your testimony, 25650,

25     on page 21138, Judge Hanoteau put a question to you, whether depriving


Page 43620

 1     civilians of their liberty was a crime unless that was lawful and your

 2     answer was "yes."

 3             Were you informed at the time that somebody had been detained on

 4     an illegal basis?

 5        A.   I did not know of illegal detention.  As far as Vogosca is

 6     concerned, if that's what you mean, when I was informed that there was

 7     some detention, in a split second or even during the course of a single

 8     day, I cannot establish whether it's lawful or unlawful, that has to be

 9     done by the investigation organs, whether there are legal grounds for

10     detention; however, it's not local activists or the local police service

11     or the local army that can determine that.  That has to be determined

12     through appropriate judicial proceedings, and that is why I insisted that

13     this be integrated into the legal system, into the justice system.  So

14     it's very hard for me now, I mean some specific name, when I am not aware

15     of these specific names in these specific cases.  Had I known, I would

16     have reacted individually.

17        Q.   Thank you.  This answer of yours then, was it a principled answer

18     to a principled question or was it a response to this specific situation?

19        A.   It was an answer in principle, in general.  It covers all the

20     rest and I hoped when saying it that the same was being done in all the

21     local communities in other municipalities.

22        Q.   In pages 53 and 54, esteemed Mrs. Edgerton asked you a very

23     complex question and then concluded with a generalised question:  Would

24     taking civilians to do work on front lines constitute a crime?  At the

25     time were you informed that somebody was taking civilians to front lines?


Page 43621

 1        A.   If I may put it this way, it's a malicious formulation, taking

 2     civilians to the front line.  Speaking of what I know, it was about a law

 3     on mobilise -- of mobilisation of military conscripts.  There was a legal

 4     framework and they went to work, if they did, and returned home and

 5     received appropriate remuneration and were given appropriate safety.

 6     Now, the fact that those people who went to work did not have rifles or

 7     uniforms is used in this question to interpret that they were civilians.

 8     They were Muslims and -- but they still had a military obligation.  As

 9     far as I know, those who were engaged as part of the work obligation

10     still had that military obligation and they were given proper security,

11     they were given proper remuneration, and they returned home after work.

12        Q.   You said that Serbs had a military obligation which was harder

13     than the work obligation?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know what my position was concerning ethnic

16     cleansing?  Did I favour the expulsion of Croats and Muslims from Serbian

17     territory?

18        A.   No, I don't know about that.

19        Q.   You don't know my position or ...?

20        A.   What I know is that I did not hear myself that you insisted on

21     any ethnic-based persecution or expulsion.  On the contrary you insisted

22     that a large number of members of other ethnic communities, including

23     Muslims and Croats, who were in the Territorial Defence, in the VRS,

24     enjoy the same treatment and that they must not be in a less privileged

25     position.


Page 43622

 1        Q.   In what position were the citizens who did not have to fulfil

 2     their military obligation but still had a work obligation, were they

 3     discriminated against?

 4        A.   I think it was actually positive discrimination.  Army service

 5     was much more dangerous.  People got killed, people got wounded, which is

 6     not the case with the work obligation.  In the work obligation we even

 7     tried to secure proper nutrition, to supply food, which was not always

 8     possible with the front lines.  So it was a privilege to be in the work

 9     obligation.  I spent most of the war in work obligation duties, so I know

10     the difference.

11        Q.   Can you tell us if you had managed to establish what my view was

12     of violent, unlawful acts against Muslims and Croats?

13        A.   I'm sorry, I didn't understand.  Against Serbs who committed such

14     violent acts or ...?

15        Q.   In general, violent acts, criminal acts against Muslims and

16     Croats.

17        A.   I know that you insisted on the legal procedure, that

18     perpetrators be prosecuted, but I'm not sure that the justice system had

19     the capability to respond quickly enough, to make decisions in an

20     efficient, expedient way that would be satisfactory to everyone.  I don't

21     have the records with me, but I know that we had many prosecutions

22     against Serb criminals and thugs even during the war to prosecute them

23     for acts against members of other ethnic communities.

24        Q.   Thank you.  In view of your role and the fact that you were sent

25     to the local level by the representatives of the republic, what did you


Page 43623

 1     expect from the local authorities vis-à-vis perpetrators of crimes

 2     against Croats and Muslims?  Did you expect --

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  I'm not sure if this was originating

 5     or arising from the cross-examination.

 6             Was that your point?

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  Exactly my point.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, Mr. President, I think this does arise from

 9     the implication about Dr. Karadzic having this violent proclivity.  I

10     think that this goes to the idea of whether Dr. Karadzic in his

11     instructions and his assignment of this individual to do a job in

12     Vogosca, whether he was in favour of or against violent crimes against

13     non-Serbs.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll allow it.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Let me repeat, Mr. President.  In view of the role that the

18     Presidency asked you to discharge on the ground, can you tell us what did

19     central authorities expect from local authorities regarding crimes

20     against Croats and Muslims?

21        A.   The central authorities - and of course I spoke directly to you

22     and Mr. Koljevic, who was in charge - had a rather idealistic view and

23     they wanted full affirmation of the rule of law, but that was not

24     feasible at the time.  It arose probably from an ambition to regulate

25     things in such a way that laws can operate without hindrance.  And this


Page 43624

 1     interview we had seen with Mr. Koprivica, as far as I remember, is to a

 2     great extent the result of my lecturing and explanations to the

 3     leadership of the municipalities.  I tried to explain to them what the

 4     legal system for local authorities should be, what equal treatment of

 5     everyone means, and these ideas can be found here.  That's the same way I

 6     intervened with the local authorities and the same way I wrote my reports

 7     to the government regarding what arrangements and solutions should be put

 8     in place for the future.

 9        Q.   My last question:  You mentioned Jovan Cvijic.  Could you tell

10     the Chamber briefly who was Jovan Cvijic and what --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

12             Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  Where did that happen?  Where was Jovan Cvijic

14     mentioned during the course of today at all?

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   When you were asked, Mr. President, about the short-tempered

17     mentality of people from the Dinara mountains, you mentioned Jovan Cvijic

18     and it was --

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can tell you, it's on page 30 or

20     31.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Let me just finish the question.  The interpreters, trying to

25     find a better term in Serbian, used the word "silovit" instead of


Page 43625

 1     "nasilan."  Could you find a synonym for the word you actually used?

 2        A.   I reacted because of this bad interpretation, and it's not the

 3     first time.  The interpreters and the Prosecutor could have found a

 4     different term.  I didn't say "oppressive" or "repressive," but I said

 5     "violentan."  That is a part of the characterology of the Balkan peoples

 6     described by a great scientist and the first president of the Serb

 7     academy of arts and sciences, Jovan Cvijic in his famous tome that is

 8     still used in schools that study this subject.  When one says "violentan"

 9     it means not unjust, not unfair, it doesn't mean destructive, it means

10     short-fused.  A person who reacts quickly but fairly.  And after this

11     quick, initial reaction, that person usually calms down and apologises.

12     And these reactions are usually to the violation of legal and -- norms

13     and norms of fairness, requiring a proper procedure that would lead to

14     proper sanctions and punishment.  It doesn't mean a violent reaction.  It

15     is the opposite of "sang froid," unemotional people who are able to

16     observe an unfair, an unjust situation for a long time and take a longer

17     time to react.

18        Q.   Thank you, Mr. President, for your efforts, despite your health

19     problems.  Thank you for coming here to testify.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Well, that concludes your evidence, Mr. Poplasen.

21     On behalf of the Chamber, I would like to thank you for your coming to

22     The Hague to give it.  You are free to go.  Please have a safe journey

23     back home.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  And --

 


Page 43626

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  -- Your Honours, with regard to the incorrect

 3     citation I gave you for P970, my apologies, I was working off a

 4     version -- a translation that was not filed in evidence.  The filed -- or

 5     admitted into evidence.  The admitted translation has that citation at

 6     pages 316 and 317 in English.

 7                           [The witness withdrew]

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  I'm told.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

10             I take it we do not have further witnesses for today?

11             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE KWON:  There's one matter I'd like to raise with you,

13     Mr. Robinson.

14             As you have seen, the Appeals Chamber has issued its decision on

15     the Tolimir appeal.  Before we going back to dealing with the Mladic and

16     Stanisic subpoena motions, we wanted to check if you perhaps had another

17     discussion with the counsel for Mr. Mladic and Mr. Stanisic, and whether

18     in light of the Tolimir decision Mr. Mladic and Mr. Stanisic were now

19     willing to come and give evidence voluntarily?

20             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  I have had those discussions,

21     and at this stage neither of them are willing to testify voluntarily.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

23             Unless there are further matters to be discussed, raised, today,

24     until Monday morning the hearing is adjourned.

25                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.26 p.m.,


Page 43627

 1                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 18th day of

 2                           November, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25