Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 43628

 1                           Monday, 18 November 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             Could the witness make the solemn declaration.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 9     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10                           WITNESS:  RADOSLAV BRDJANIN

11                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Brdjanin.  Please be seated and make

13     yourself comfortable.

14             Could the counsel assisting Mr. Brdjanin introduce himself for

15     the record.

16             MR. LUKIC:  Good day, Your Honour.  Good day to everyone.  My

17     name is Novak Lukic, I am attorney-at-law from Belgrade and in today's

18     proceedings I am going to represent Mr. Brdjanin and his rights.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Good morning to you, Mr. Lukic.

20             Mr. Brdjanin, although I know -- I take it that you are well

21     aware of this, I must draw your attention to a certain rule of evidence

22     that we have here at the Tribunal before you commence your evidence, that

23     is, Rule 90(E).  Under this rule, you may object to answering any

24     questions from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecutor, or even from the Judges, if

25     you believe that your answer might incriminate you in a criminal offence.

Page 43629

 1     In this context, "incriminate" means saying something that might amount

 2     to an admission of guilt for a criminal offence or saying something that

 3     might provide evidence that you might have committed a criminal offence.

 4     However, should you think that an answer might incriminate you and, as a

 5     consequence, you refuse to answer the question, I must let you know that

 6     the Tribunal has the power to compel you to answer the question.  But in

 7     that situation, the Tribunal would ensure that your testimony compelled

 8     under such circumstances would not be used in any case that might be laid

 9     against you for any offence, save and except the offence of giving false

10     testimony.

11             Do you understand that, sir?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Excellencies.

16     Good morning to everyone.

17                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Brdjanin.

19        A.   Good morning.

20        Q.   Hopefully you are close enough to the mike, only I would like to

21     ask you for us to make pauses between our sentences so that everything

22     can be properly interpreted and recorded in the transcript.

23             Did you give a statement to my Defence team?

24        A.   Yes, I did.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 43630

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have 1D9119 in

 2     e-court so that it can be shown to the witness.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Please tell me if you see your statement on the screen before

 5     you.

 6        A.   I can see it.

 7        Q.   The important thing is that the same statement is on the screen,

 8     and with the Chamber's leave you will be able to use your statement

 9     whenever needed.  Did you sign and did you read your statement?

10        A.   Yes, I did.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can, please, the witness be shown

13     the last page so that he can identify his signature.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Is this your signature?

16        A.   Yes, it is.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Does this statement accurately reflect what you told

18     my Defence team?

19        A.   In brief, everything that I know of and all the opinions that I

20     have are contained in my statement.

21        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to put the same questions to you today in

22     this courtroom, would your answers essentially be the same as the ones in

23     the statement?

24        A.   Essentially, yes.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 43631

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

 2     statement pursuant to Rule 92 ter.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have any objection to the admission of the

 4     statement, Mr. Tieger?

 5             MR. TIEGER:  No, Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  We'll admit it.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D4034, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we deal with the associated exhibits?

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  We're tendering 25 associated

10     exhibits, four of them which appeared on our list are not, in fact, being

11     tendered because three are already admitted and one was in -- enumerated

12     in error in the list.

13             JUDGE KWON:  All right.  And could you identify those numbers

14     that you are not tendering.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  65 ter number 05831 has been

16     admitted as D4015.  65 ter number 05587 has been admitted as

17     Exhibit D422.  65 ter number 1D9862 has been admitted as D4026.  And

18     we're not tendering 1D5589, which appeared in error.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Except for those, 65 ter 17918 referred to in

20     paragraph 25, you are tendering only the page referred to out of the

21     51-page document, page 12?

22             MR. ROBINSON:  If I could have a minute for Mr. Sladojevic to

23     check that and make sure.

24             JUDGE KWON:  And while we are waiting for that, 65 ter 1D5589,

25     did you say that you are not tendering that?

Page 43632

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Document 1D9857 referred to in para 9, and 1D9862

 3     referred to in para 19, those two documents does not form, in the view of

 4     the Chamber, an inseparable and indispensable part of the document -- the

 5     statement, in the sense that it was not sufficiently commented upon or

 6     contextualised by the witness.  So if the Defence is minded to tender

 7     those two documents, it should lead live.

 8             And finally, with respect to document 1D55187 referred to in

 9     paragraph 23(G), the Chamber is not sure about its provenance so the --

10     if the Defence is minded to tender that, it is also requested or

11     instructed that the -- Mr. Karadzic should lead live this document.

12             And with the caveat referred to 1798 -- I'm sorry, 17918, we'll

13     admit only the page referred to, i.e., page 12 of the document.

14     Otherwise, I wonder whether there's any objection from Mr. Tieger with

15     respect to associated exhibits?

16             MR. TIEGER: [Microphone not activated]

17             JUDGE KWON:  Microphone.

18             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Much of what we had

19     identified has been covered in the discussion.  We also noted the

20     document in paragraph 12, 8379; the document in paragraph 13; and the

21     document in paragraph 18 as appearing to us -- and 18 was 4820, as being

22     possibly in -- not substantially substantiated and --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, 8379, is it something that was

24     withdrawn?

25             MR. TIEGER:  That's --

Page 43633

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson?

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  No.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  No.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  That's why I was taking my time in rising.  I was

 5     comparing the list, but I didn't see that and Mr. Robinson confirms that.

 6     In any event, those were our observations, Mr. President.  I know the

 7     Trial Chamber very actively monitors this.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber is fine with those two exhibits, we'll

 9     admit them.

10             Except for those, all the other associated exhibits will be

11     admitted into evidence and assigned -- be assigned the exhibit number in

12     due course by the Registry.

13             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, just one minor housekeeping matter, I

14     think you mentioned with respect to 17918, which appears at paragraph 25,

15     that it would be page 12 that was referenced and I -- or paragraph 12 in

16     the statement is paragraph 11 -- sorry.  The difference is between pages,

17     not paragraphs, between page 11 and page 12, just for clarification.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

19             Yes, please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'm now going to read a

21     brief summary of Mr. Brdjanin's statement in English.

22             [In English] Radoslav Brdjanin became a member of the SDS in

23     1990.  Between May the 5th of 1992 and July the 17th, 1992, he was the

24     President of the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina (ARK)

25     and later he became the minister for urban planning and construction in

Page 43634

 1     the Republika Srpska.  He was also elected deputy in the Assembly of the

 2     Republika Srpska and Republika Srpska deputy prime minister for the

 3     economy.  On 8th of March, 1995, he was relieved from all his duties in

 4     the government and party.

 5             The reason why the Community of Municipalities of Banja Luka

 6     (ZOBL), the Community of Municipalities of Bosnian Krajina (ZOBK) and the

 7     ARK were established was to gain greater economic independence from the

 8     authorities in Sarajevo.  The ARK statute was written for all three

 9     nations and all municipalities in Krajina were invited to join the region

10     of Krajina.  In 1990 and 1991, more than other parts of BH, Krajina felt

11     the tensions and proximity of the fighting in Croatia, where military

12     facilities of the JNA came under attack and Serbian people were

13     discriminated against.  Moreover, the leadership of the SDA began

14     promoting the independence of BH and their deputies publicly started

15     speaking against Yugoslavia and the JNA.  As a result, the original

16     economic project to create a region of Krajina acquired a political

17     dimension.  There were men in the region of Krajina who were for the

18     unification of the two Krajinas and proclamation of the Republic of

19     Krajina, but the SDS was against this.

20             In April 1992, Prime Minister Djeric sent instructions for the

21     establishment of Crisis Staffs in municipalities, but not in the region.

22     The ARK Crisis Staff was established as the co-ordinating body at the

23     regional level and Mr. Brdjanin was nominated as its president.  The ARK

24     Crisis Staff was not supported by the central authorities in Pale.

25             Krajina was cut off from the rest of the Serbian Republic of BH

Page 43635

 1     until 28th of June, 1992, when a corridor was opened.  However, the

 2     consequences of being cut off continued because two or three months were

 3     necessary for the supply to Krajina to start meeting the minimum

 4     requirements.  The break between Banja Luka and Pale was not complete but

 5     communication was rendered extremely difficult.  Mr. Brdjanin did not

 6     receive any instruction from Pale or Dr. Karadzic about his work or the

 7     work of the ARK Crisis Staff while it existed.

 8             The ARK Assembly and Executive Committee existed at the same time

 9     as the ARK Crisis Staff.  The ARK Crisis Staff did not have premises to

10     hold its meetings, it did not employ anyone, and, in other words, was

11     superfluous.  As for the relations between the ARK Crisis Staff and the

12     municipalities, there was no subordination and the municipalities

13     independently decided whether they would or would not implement the

14     decisions of the ARK Crisis Staff.  Nothing could be done to punish

15     municipal organs if they failed to implement decisions of the ARK

16     Crisis Staff.

17             From the very beginning, the ARK Crisis Staff fought against all

18     paramilitary formations, regardless of the ethnic composition, and all

19     citizens who had unauthorised weapons had to return them and place

20     themselves under the command of the legal armed forces of the

21     Territorial Defence.  The ARK Crisis Staff tried to include Muslim,

22     Croats, and members of the other nations in the community; however,

23     sensitive information was being leaked.  The Serbian soldiers were

24     frustrated because they witnessed deaths and wounding of their loved ones

25     by members of the same nation who held top positions in the Serbian state

Page 43636

 1     and who might have, at the same time, been leaking information to the

 2     enemy.  As a result, the ARK Crisis Staff decided on 22nd of June, 1992,

 3     to appoint Serbs who unconditionally accepted the newly formed state

 4     structures, who respected the state institutions, laws, and regulations,

 5     to sensitive top positions from where information could be leaked.  The

 6     guiding principle was that top positions could not be held by persons who

 7     rejected the state organs of the Serbian Republic of BH.

 8             President Karadzic used his authority granted by the constitution

 9     to appoint Muslims and Croats as judges and prosecutors alongside with

10     Serbs.  However, when the Republika Srpska Assembly convened on

11     12th of August, 1992, the deputies agreed not to re-elect Muslims and

12     Croatians as a temporary measure during war time, despite Dr. Karadzic's

13     pressure for his decisions to be ratified.

14             The position of the ARK Crisis Staff about Muslims and Croats

15     leaving the ARK never included forcible transfer or deportation.

16     Individuals who decided to leave the ARK were required to have a

17     certificate of departure which listed their belongings, as a proof that a

18     person was voluntarily leaving and in order to allow the ARK Crisis Staff

19     in order to protect the rights of these persons with regard to their

20     property.  Although against any form of forcible relocation of the

21     people, the ARK Crisis Staff believed in enabling the reciprocal exchange

22     of those civilians who expressed their wish to leave.

23             On 10th of June, 1992, the ARK Crisis Staff adopted a decision

24     that only women, children, and the elderly could leave the ARK

25     voluntarily and that their departure should be effected in co-operation

Page 43637

 1     with the humanitarian societies.  If able-bodied non-Serbs voluntarily

 2     decided to leave, the police first wanted to check whether they had been

 3     involved in combat operations against the Serbian armed forces or

 4     committed a crime.  On 12th of June, 1992, the ARK Crisis Staff adopted a

 5     decision to establish an agency which would regulate the needs of the

 6     civilians who wanted to leave and exchange of their houses with Serbs.

 7     The work of the agency focused on providing assistance for the departure

 8     of all three ethnic communities.

 9             In June 1992, there were several thousand refugees in Banja Luka

10     of Serbian ethnicity who entered abandoned flats and houses without

11     authorisation.  In order to stop this, the ARK Crisis Staff adopted a

12     decision for all abandoned properties, regardless of who owned it, to be

13     declared state property until the return of the original owner.  In

14     addition, Mr. Brdjanin urged the confiscation of property of the

15     deserters from the VRS and all war profiteers.  The opinion of

16     President Karadzic on housing was that according to international law and

17     standards, the housing policy in times of war should be temporary, the

18     property of everyone should be respected, and he favoured compensation to

19     all Muslims who left RS and could not return.  President Karadzic has

20     always promoted respect for the Geneva Conventions and insisted on humane

21     treatment of non-Serbian civilians and prisoners of war.  In Assembly

22     sessions, he always underlined the importance of respecting the

23     international law of war.

24             [Interpretation] This was the brief summary.  There is only one

25     document that I would first like to ask Mr. Brdjanin about.

Page 43638

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   In paragraph 23(g) of your statement, page 10 in Serbian you

 3     explain the reasons and the nature of the agency for relocation that had

 4     been established.  Did you have the same opinion at the time as regards

 5     the reasons underlying this decision and the persons that it pertained

 6     to?

 7        A.   I have page 9, sub-item (g).

 8        Q.   Yes.

 9        A.   Yes, what I said here.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown

11     1D5587.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Can you tell us who Dragan Stegic is?

14        A.   Just a moment, please.  5587 --

15        Q.   No, we are still waiting for it to show up.  1D55817.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Is it not 55187?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise, it is 55187.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Are you familiar with Mr. Stegic, who is he, and was this news

20     broadcast and when?  And the date here is the 23rd of July, 1992.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Let's first find out what this document is about

22     from the witness.

23             Mr. Brdjanin, can you tell us what this document is about?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, as far as I can see, it has

25     to do with the following.  Mr. Stegic is a journalist, as far as I can

Page 43639

 1     remember.  It's not only that I can remember, that's the way it was.  He

 2     talked to Bojinovic.  I cannot say whether it was broadcast or not --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Mr. Brdjanin, before going into the

 4     content of this document, what this document at all?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see that it is being recounted

 6     here -- I mean why the agency was established and what its objective was.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Do you know who wrote it, in what context?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

10             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Could you please read out the last paragraph to yourself or you

13     can read it out loud if you wish.

14        A.   This was an interview between our reporter, Dragan Stegic, and

15     Milos Bojinovic, president of the agency for aid in the resettlement of

16     people and exchange of material goods in Banja Luka, Stegic.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us where Stegic worked?  Was he employed

18     by the electronic media or the printed media?

19        A.   Well, I'm not sure, Radio Banja Luka or a newspaper, I'm really

20     not sure.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Could this be a transcript of that interview?

22        A.   I assume that that could be the case.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We have an ERN number, probably the

25     Prosecution knows how they obtained this document, but I'd like to tender

Page 43640

 1     it now.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  That was an unilluminating colloquy on this

 4     document.  I don't -- the document was, as I understand it, seized by the

 5     OTP in February of 1998.  That's all the information I have on it, so I'm

 6     not in a position to add a great deal at this point to our understanding

 7     of the provenance of the document.  And, as I say, I don't think we heard

 8     much from the witness that enlightened us about it.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber will mark it for identification until it

11     is satisfied with its provenance.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be MFI D4055, Your Honours.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 405?  There must be some kind of

14     mistake here.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  MFI D4055.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Excellencies.  At this

17     point in time I have no further questions for Mr. Brdjanin.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Brdjanin, as you somewhere noted, your evidence

19     in chief in this case has been admitted in most part in writing, that is,

20     your written witness statement, in lieu of your oral testimony.  Now you

21     will be cross-examined by the office -- by the representative of the

22     Office of the Prosecutor.

23             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

24             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

25                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger:

Page 43641

 1        Q.   Sir, it's not referenced in your statement, but you are, of

 2     course, the same Radoslav Brdjanin who was tried here in this institution

 3     on charges related to your role in joint efforts to create a Serbian

 4     entity from which most non-Serbs would be permanently removed; is that

 5     correct?

 6        A.   Well, that is true that I was tried for that, but ...

 7        Q.   And that trial was not a brief affair.  It began in January of

 8     2002 and ended on April 22nd, 2004; correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Okay.  Over 150 witnesses were heard live, that is, viva voce;

11     over a hundred witnesses were heard through the submission in written

12     statements.  That's correct; right?

13        A.   Well, I assume that that is the case.  I'm sorry, but I'm not

14     aware of the exact figure.

15        Q.   And thousands of exhibits were produced and considered by the

16     Trial Chamber; right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And at the end of that process, you were convicted of crimes

19     committed against non-Serbs in 13 ARK municipalities, including

20     Bosanski Novi, Kljuc, Prijedor, Sanski Most, and Banja Luka,

21     Bosanska Krupa, and others; correct?

22        A.   I don't know how many municipalities, but I was sentenced to

23     30 years in prison finally.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We can barely hear the

25     witness.  Could he please be asked to approach the microphone and could

Page 43642

 1     all other microphones please be switched off.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Brdjanin, you are requested by the interpreters

 3     to come closer to the microphone.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

 5             MR. TIEGER:

 6        Q.   Okay.  I take it you don't dispute either the number of

 7     municipalities which were encompassed by your conviction or the specific

 8     municipalities that I recited?  That is contained in the judgement.

 9        A.   Well, I'm not disputing the fact that the Prosecutor issued an

10     indictment regarding all the municipalities that are listed there, but

11     the question is what out of all of that is all right.

12        Q.   And you were convicted of persecutions, including deportation and

13     forcible transfer; wilful killings; torture; wanton destruction of

14     cities, towns, and villages; and destruction of religious institutions.

15     Correct?

16        A.   You perhaps know my judgement better than I do.  It is true that

17     I was convicted; however, in view of the newly created standards,

18     especially over the past two years, I really do not know why it is that

19     I've been convicted.

20        Q.   Let me turn to some of the things you say to this court in your

21     statement that has now been tendered.

22             MR. TIEGER:  Excuse me, one second.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

24             MR. TIEGER:

25        Q.   Paragraph 20 of your statement indicates that there was no

Page 43643

 1     relationship of superiority or inferiority, no subordination or hierarchy

 2     between the ARK Crisis Staff and the municipal Crisis Staffs.  Now,

 3     Mr. Brdjanin, that same position was part of your defence in the course

 4     of your long trial here, between 2002 and 2004; right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And the Trial Chamber, after hearing all that evidence, found

 7     that the ARK municipalities, with the exception of Prijedor,

 8     "unquestionably accepted the authority of the ARK Crisis Staff as an

 9     intermediate level of authority between the republic level and the

10     municipalities to issue binding instructions."

11             And that's -- those findings can be found at paragraph 200 and

12     205 of your judgement.  Is that right?  You recall that's essentially

13     what the Trial Chamber found?  I see you have the judgement.  I'm just

14     putting this on the record so it's clear, and you're looking at it now.

15     So if you turn to paragraph 200 --

16             MR. LUKIC:  [Interpretation] If I may be of assistance, I think

17     that Mr. Brdjanin has the appeals judgement in front of him, so perhaps

18     that might create some confusion.  I'm not quite sure.

19             MR. TIEGER:  Yeah.

20        Q.   I think you heard your counsel, sir.  I'm referring to the trial

21     judgement, not the appeals judgement.  The trial judgement is the one

22     that made these findings of fact; the appeals judgement affirmed those.

23        A.   May I take a look at that?  I mean, I don't know.

24        Q.   I -- do you read English, sir?  Because I only have a copy --

25        A.   Yes, I can read that.  Yes, give it to me.

Page 43644

 1             JUDGE KWON:  But I think we have in e-court --

 2             MR. TIEGER:  We do.  So if we could call it up, that's

 3     65 ter 25653.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Mr. Tieger, it hasn't been uploaded.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Lukic, do you by any chance have the B/C/S

 6     version of his trial judgement?

 7             MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, not here in the

 8     courtroom.  I don't know whether it would be useful to simply go into the

 9     electronic database and if we could show that particular paragraph from

10     the web site of the Tribunal.

11             MR. TIEGER:

12        Q.   Mr. Brdjanin, so you know, we're trying to get that available to

13     be seen electronically.  I think that's happening as we speak.

14             MR. TIEGER:  I don't understand the problem, Mr. President.

15     We're taking it from every possible angle.  If you want to take a quick

16     break, we'll have both the hard copy and the uploaded within just a --

17     within a few minutes.  Maybe that's the simplest way to do it.  I don't

18     understand the -- unless -- I see it.  Okay.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Is it only in English?

20             MR. TIEGER:  As far as I know -- that's all I see at the moment.

21     But in any event, I would be reciting the particular portion.

22     Mr. Brdjanin indicated he has some understanding and since it will be

23     translated to him as we recite it which is -- we always put it in the

24     record anyway, so it might not be an issue.  I'm happy to take that break

25     I suggested and upload the B/C/S if it's taking -- if that's a problem,

Page 43645

 1     but I'm in the Court's hands on that, and the witness's, of course.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we continue in the meantime.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  Okay.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Let's see how we can manage.

 5             MR. TIEGER:

 6        Q.   So I had turned your attention to paragraph 200 and paragraph

 7     205.  200, as we see, states:

 8             "The ARK Crisis Staff, assuming all powers and functions of the

 9     ARK Assembly, acted as an intermediate level of authority between the

10     Serbian BiH and the municipalities."

11             And if we turn to paragraph --

12             JUDGE KWON:  Where is it in 200?

13             MR. TIEGER:  First sentence.

14             JUDGE KWON:  The first sentence?

15             MR. TIEGER:  Yes.

16        Q.   If we turn to 205 we see:

17             "With the exception," again the first sentence, "of Prijedor

18     municipality, all ARK municipalities unquestionably accepted the

19     authority of the ARK Crisis Staff to issue instructions that were binding

20     upon them."

21             JUDGE KWON:  I note those two sentences are without footnotes.  I

22     take it are they the findings?  Are they referring to specific evidence?

23             MR. TIEGER:  These are the overall findings that encompass the

24     broader factual -- specific factual findings that underpin them later in

25     the judgement.  I note -- I note in particular that this judgement, as

Page 43646

 1     others, related to witnesses who have been -- testified as we have

 2     discussed in court before are available to the Court.  So I don't think

 3     Mr. Robinson or Mr. Karadzic have any problem if the Court pursues the

 4     relationship between the broader findings and the underlying factual

 5     basis.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Please continue.

 7             MR. TIEGER:

 8        Q.   Okay.  So I'm going to -- although I'll be referring to other

 9     portions of the judgement, Mr. Brdjanin, that relate to paragraph 20, I

10     wanted to confirm, first of all, that the same position you took in

11     paragraph 20 was taken in your trial and this was the conclusion of the

12     Court?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Okay.  With respect to Prijedor --

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Thank you.  With respect to Prijedor, paragraph --

17             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry, paragraph 20 of his statement?

18             MR. TIEGER:  Of his current statement before the Court --

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

20             MR. TIEGER:  -- which relates to the alleged ...

21        Q.   And, Mr. Brdjanin, if it's at all helpful, I have a hard copy of

22     the trial judgement in Serbian if you'd like to have that available.

23        A.   Very well.  Thank you.

24        Q.   Okay.  In paragraph 208, the Trial Chamber also noted that

25     Prijedor was an exception in the sense that there was at some stage a

Page 43647

 1     dispute with the ARK authorities that arose from the position of the

 2     Prijedor authorities, that they were underrepresented on the ARK

 3     Crisis Staff.  But nevertheless, Prijedor implemented the decisions of

 4     the ARK Crisis Staff.

 5             That's what your Trial Chamber also found in connection with that

 6     particular ARK municipality; right?  That's paragraph 208.

 7        A.   I don't know whether you're asking me to confirm now what is

 8     written in paragraph 208 or to say whether that had actually happened.

 9        Q.   Well, I'm actually asking you to confirm that that was the

10     finding of the Trial Chamber.  You're right, I understand that you took a

11     contrary position at trial; that's precisely why I'm pointing out what

12     the Trial Chamber found.

13        A.   Well, that's why I didn't even need this judgement.  I know that

14     you're reading from the judgement and, yes, that is what was found by the

15     Trial Chamber.

16        Q.   And so you understand, Mr. Brdjanin, none of this was mentioned

17     in the statement so I'm trying to put it in the record so this

18     Trial Chamber has an accurate understanding of the background.

19             Finally, with respect to the positions you took at trial and with

20     respect to paragraph 20 here, the Trial Chamber found that the Defence

21     submission that municipalities such as Prijedor, Sanski Most, Kljuc were

22     "renegade municipalities," who acted independently of both the ARK

23     Crisis Staff and the RS republic-level authorities was not true.  That

24     is, the Trial Chamber was satisfied "beyond a reasonable doubt" that the

25     crimes charged were the implementation of a plan that originated "from

Page 43648

 1     the top level of the Bosnian Serb leadership and whose implementation by

 2     the municipalities was co-ordinated by the regional authorities of the

 3     ARK."

 4             And that's found at paragraph 209, and that accurately states the

 5     or reflects the position taken by the Defence in your trial and the

 6     findings of the Trial Chamber; correct?

 7        A.   It is well-known what the position of the Trial Chamber was since

 8     I was sentenced to 30 years in prison, but I don't know whether I have an

 9     opportunity now to say what I think about what is stated here in the

10     judgement.  This is the first time that I speak.  I was not allowed to

11     speak at all during the appeal or before that, and obviously my Defence

12     did not manage to prove why the Crisis Staff of the autonomous region was

13     simply a co-ordinating body or simply a service for the Crisis Staffs of

14     the municipalities.  By no way -- by no means was it superior to them or

15     could it have imposed any kind of sanctions.

16        Q.   Well, at this point, Mr. Brdjanin, I think we understand that's

17     your position, both by virtue of the fact, as we've just discussed, that

18     it was your position during the trial and it's your position as reflected

19     essentially in paragraph 20 and other parts of your statement.  But let

20     me turn to some --

21             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

22             Did Mr. Brdjanin testify in his case or not?

23             MR. TIEGER:  No, Mr. President, I don't believe so.  But he can

24     answer that question.

25             JUDGE KWON:  You didn't testify in your case?

Page 43649

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I sat there for two or three years

 2     like Ikebana, I don't know how to put it.  I was not allowed to say

 3     anything.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  But it was your decision not to testify in your

 5     case, wasn't it?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, testimony.  But I'm talking

 7     about the trial in general, yes.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 9             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

10             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11        Q.   Well, let me talk about a few specifics before I move on.  For

12     example, Mr. Brdjanin, municipality Crisis Staff presidents attended

13     ARK Crisis Staff meetings, both to find out what was happening in the

14     field within the ARK and elsewhere and to find out what they were

15     supposed to do about it.  So they came to get information about what was

16     happening and to find out what they were to do next; correct?

17        A.   I have to answer by explaining why the presidents of the

18     Crisis Staffs attended.  It was at their proposal that the autonomous

19     region staff was founded and they just came there for an exchange of

20     information.  As for the Crisis Staff of the autonomous region, they just

21     kept minutes and checked, conditionally speaking, with regard to their

22     agreements who had implemented what.  So co-ordinating body would really

23     be the best expression.

24             However, what is even more important is you have three of my

25     signatures at -- on 21 records of these meetings.  That is what I

Page 43650

 1     attended.  I saw on time that this was an exercise in futility --

 2        Q.   Mr. Brdjanin, excuse me.  Mr. Brdjanin, excuse me.  Mr. Brdjanin,

 3     sorry, I make a quick -- few quick ground rules.  First of all, I think

 4     we can see now that you're repeating precisely what's in your statement,

 5     and you're doing so not to answer my question but to argue about what you

 6     see is the implications of that answer.  So you've had a chance --

 7        A.   [In English] Sorry, sorry, sorry.  Sorry.

 8        Q.   So if -- please listen to what the question is and respond to

 9     that.  We now have your statement before us.

10             Okay.  So if I understand it, you agree that on a routine basis,

11     indeed, every Monday, you would meet with the municipality presidents and

12     inform them about the political situation in the area?

13        A.   [Interpretation] They did meet on Mondays whenever they met, but

14     not with me because I said that I did not attend half of the meetings or

15     perhaps even two-thirds of the meetings.  So the meetings were held on

16     Mondays and they did exchange information at these meetings.

17             MR. TIEGER:  Can we have 65 ter 40458, please.  That's a

18     video-clip.  I'd like to play that.  Sorry, it's 40458A.  That may help.

19             And for the interpreters that's at English and B/C/S page 2, that

20     would be the portion of the video where we'll hear speaking.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Do we not need to switch to Sanction?

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Mr. Brdjanin, tell us, why did you

24     come and how do you see the latest developments in the Kotor Varos

25     municipality?

Page 43651

 1             "Mr. Brdjanin, tell us, why did you come and how do you see the

 2     latest developments in the Kotor Varos municipality?

 3             "Let me tell you, my duty as the president of the Crisis Staff of

 4     the autonomous region is to visit all fronts.  I must admit that most of

 5     the time I was in the corridor leading to Serbia, but simply my visit --

 6     the reason for my coming here is that every Monday I must inform the

 7     presidents of all Crisis Staffs about the political situation in this

 8     area.  We must clean up our area which unquestionably includes

 9     Kotor Varos and Jajce, and the most important battle which is underway

10     and which I attended yesterday is the break-through to Serbia.  Simply,

11     we can see for ourselves that there can be no more negotiations with

12     those waging war against us.  Those who took up arms must be defeated,

13     hand them over and total Serb authority must rule here."

14             MR. TIEGER:

15        Q.   And that is a depiction of you at the time, Mr. Brdjanin, and

16     that reflects your contemporaneous position about the meetings, the

17     regular meetings, with presidents of municipalities -- presidents of

18     Crisis Staffs, to advise them about the political situation in the area?

19        A.   Correct.

20             MR. TIEGER:  I tender 65 ter 40458A, Mr. President.

21             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive it.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6512, Your Honours.

24             MR. TIEGER:

25        Q.   Now, this Trial Chamber has received evidence from municipalities

Page 43652

 1     concerning Crisis Staff meetings in municipalities and specifically

 2     concerning references to Crisis Staff members attending -- municipal

 3     Crisis Staff members attending ARK Crisis Staff meetings.  I'm happy to

 4     show you the individual documents if you wish, but let me indicate what

 5     they reflect.

 6             P2606, which is the Crisis Staff book of minutes from Kljuc,

 7     indicates on 1 June 1992 - that's page 8 of the English and page 29 of

 8     the Serbian - that Veljko Kondic and Rajko Kalabic were sent to attend

 9     the Krajina Crisis Staff session.  And June 1st is, indeed, a Monday,

10     which I think can be judicially noticed.

11             Same book of minutes reflects, at English page 14 through 16 and

12     B/C/S pages 43 through 47, that on June 9th, 1992, a Tuesday, there was a

13     report from the session of the Banja Luka regional Crisis Staff and

14     Kondic informed the Kljuc Crisis Staff of the conclusions of the regional

15     Crisis Staff session and remarked on the most important issues.

16             And similarly, at English pages 16 through 19 and at B/C/S

17     49 through 61, on the 16th of June, 1992, another Tuesday, that is, the

18     day after the Mondays that are referred to in your videotaped interview,

19     Banjac, the president of the Crisis Staff reported to the Crisis Staff on

20     the conclusion of the Banja Luka Crisis Staff on specific issues.

21             And similarly, if we turn to 65 ter 07215, pages 1 in both the

22     English and B/C/S, these are the minutes of the 29th Session of the

23     Petrovac Crisis Staff held on the 9th of June, 1992, as mentioned, a

24     Tuesday.  And the first item is Rajko Novakovic, the president of the

25     Crisis Staff, briefed those present on the conclusions adopted by the

Page 43653

 1     Autonomous Region Krajina Crisis Staff in Banja Luka.

 2             Now, all those references that we just saw, Mr. Brdjanin, reflect

 3     that indeed regular meetings were held at which presidents of

 4     Crisis Staffs or representatives of municipal Crisis Staffs would come to

 5     be briefed by you; correct?  Or other members of the ARK Crisis Staff.

 6             I saw you nodding, sir, but you have to answer audibly for the

 7     record.

 8        A.   When you showed the video-clip, I said that it was correct that I

 9     said that and that everything was arranged like that.  However, it did

10     not happen like that for many reasons.  First of all, those were

11     conditions of war.  People could not attend regularly on Mondays, and I

12     also stated other reasons because of which I did not attend when I saw

13     that not everything was implemented.  It's true that the report about

14     Kljuc deals with how they would implement it; however, I know, though

15     nobody may believe me, they implemented what suited them in their area if

16     they had some material gain.  If it didn't suit them, they didn't do it,

17     and there were no sanctions against it.  So it wouldn't turn out that I

18     lied when I said that it wasn't held every Monday.  I said for my

19     statement that it was correct, the intention was such, but it could not

20     be really implemented in practice, but it's true and it's correct that

21     that was the intention.

22             MR. TIEGER:  If I could tender --

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ask the witness to talk a bit

24     more slowly.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, did you say something?

Page 43654

 1             MR. TIEGER:  I was going to tender 65 ter 07215.

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  Objection, Mr. President, because this is a

 3     municipality not -- where no crimes are charged in the indictment.  I

 4     don't think it's relevant that members of that municipality were

 5     reporting to the ARK; and therefore, we object.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  The issue at the moment is not how many crimes

 7     occurred in how many places.  The issue at this moment is the nature of

 8     the functioning of the ARK Crisis Staff and its relationship to the

 9     municipalities and it's obviously relevant for that.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  But, Mr. President, once the door is opened to

11     this kind of evidence, then certainly we should be able to show that

12     there were people who were affiliated with the ARK or attending ARK

13     meetings who weren't involved in any crimes.  And I think that will

14     create a wider scope of the trial than the Chamber has so far wanted.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Is it not sufficient to have what we have in our

16     transcript?  The crux of the document was put to the witness.  We heard

17     the witness.

18             MR. TIEGER:  Well --

19             JUDGE KWON:  Not agreeing in its entirety, but agreeing in

20     general about the need to -- need for a meeting and the meeting take

21     place?

22             MR. TIEGER:  Well --

23             JUDGE KWON:  I will consult my colleagues.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber is of the view it does not need it, so

Page 43655

 1     shall we proceed.

 2             MR. TIEGER:

 3        Q.   And, Mr. Brdjanin, in fact the conclusions, decisions, of the ARK

 4     Crisis Staff, contrary to what you state in paragraph 20 and the position

 5     you took at your own trial, were considered by the municipality

 6     Crisis Staffs to be binding on them, as given to them by this

 7     intermediate level of authority, the ARK Crisis Staff; correct?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   Let me turn to a few examples of that, if I may.  P3497, English

10     page 1 and B/C/S page 2.  This is an announcement of the Kljuc

11     Crisis Staff on the 8th of May, 1992, which states in part:

12             "All decisions shall be made and tasks performed in compliance

13     with the regulations and decisions of the organs of the Autonomous Region

14     of the Krajina and the Serbian Republic of BiH ..."

15             It's right in the middle of the page.

16             So here we see Kljuc Crisis Staff expressly and publicly taking

17     the position that the decisions of the ARK Crisis Staff will be

18     considered something that the Kljuc Crisis Staff will and should comply

19     with; right?  That was their public position, contemporaneously, that is,

20     at the time?

21        A.   You have this correct document.  It's their document, I confirm

22     that it is, but there is also the decision of the Una Sana region where

23     Kljuc belongs, which are against this decision of the Crisis Staff of the

24     ARK.  The dates were the 12th and 14th of June, they met in Korcanica,

25     and there are the documents which we provided during my trial.  The

Page 43656

 1     municipalities were Kljuc, Bosanski Novi, Bosanski Petrovac,

 2     Serbian Bihac, Krupa on Una, Sanski Most, and Prijedor.  That's the

 3     Sana-Una region.  They met.  As Mr. Ackerman called them, the renegade

 4     municipalities.  I wouldn't call them renegade, but those who didn't --

 5     Banja Luka never accepted the Crisis Staff and it's correct that there

 6     were municipalities that accepted it, but it depended on the decisions

 7     made by me and the other officials.  I could do something in Celinac

 8     because I was the president of the Executive Board in Celinac, but there

 9     was no way to impose any sanctions against them in case they didn't obey

10     us.

11        Q.   Well, I was going to look at a couple more municipalities, but

12     let me, in the interests of time, simply focus for a moment on Prijedor,

13     which was earlier discussed, and on various periods of time in Prijedor.

14             MR. TIEGER:  Let's first look at P3530, pages 1 in both

15     languages, that's the -- a meeting on the 9th of May, 1992 --

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript, please, while we are

17     waiting for the document.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In line 2 it's wrongly represented

20     what the witness said.  He didn't say that "it depended on my decisions

21     which I made," but "it depended on my personal relations with the people

22     in municipalities."

23             JUDGE KWON:  Do you agree with it, Mr. Brdjanin?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree.  I said:  On my personal

25     relations.

Page 43657

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 2             MR. TIEGER:

 3        Q.   Okay.  We now have that document before us, and as we can see

 4     at -- on page 1, Mr. Kovacevic, the head of the Executive Committee,

 5     assures the assembled representatives that the functioning of the

 6     government at the level of Krajina can now be felt.  And in addition, he

 7     states that:

 8             "Instructions and decisions are being forwarded from the top ..."

 9             And on page 2 we can also see the president of the municipality,

10     Mr. Stakic, emphasising that the constitution of the Serbian republic has

11     been implemented since 30 April 1992.

12             All right.  So this is an early expression of the Prijedor

13     authorities -- about the hierarchical structure between the republic

14     level down through the ARK authorities to the municipalities; correct?

15        A.   This is -- look at the date, the 9th of May, four days after the

16     establishment of the Crisis Staff.  And of course, in the beginning it

17     was always idyllic.  We can see that in ordinary life, as in a marriage,

18     and then later on everything gets more and more watered down.

19        Q.   Okay.  Let me turn to two more decisions or two more documents

20     from May, that's first P3536, English and B/C/S pages 3.  And there we

21     see the Prijedor Crisis Staff stating that the decisions of the

22     responsible organs of the ARK are explicitly accepted to be one of the

23     foundations for the work of the Prijedor Crisis Staff.  Correct?

24             And similarly, if I could turn to two days later, 22 May, that's

25     P3708.

Page 43658

 1        A.   No, no, no.  Would you -- please, if you can bring back the

 2     document so we can look at the heading, the previous one.

 3        Q.   By all means.  That was 3536.

 4        A.   Please, allow me just for a minute.  The greatest confusion in my

 5     trial was the result of those headings.  The Autonomous Region of Krajina

 6     existed.  Its executive board or committee called the government and it

 7     says here on the basis of the decisions.  It has nothing to do with the

 8     Crisis Staff.  They operated all along and now they once referred to the

 9     autonomous region, once to the Crisis Staff, that caused the greatest

10     confusion.  I don't blame anyone, but I just wish to clarify that, if

11     possible, in these sentences, one or two sentences.

12        Q.   Okay.  And that's apparently the same position as you just told

13     us you took at trial.  Maybe we can turn to page -- to P37 --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Article number?

15             MR. TIEGER:  Article 11, Mr. President, and 12 as well.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  If you have done the reading, we'll move

17     to the next document.

18             MR. TIEGER:  And that's P --

19        Q.   I'm sorry --

20             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Yes.

21             MR. TIEGER:  That's P3708.

22        Q.   Now, Mr. Brdjanin, in your previous answer you tried to focus on

23     the broad encompassing language of Articles 11 and 12, referring to the

24     ARK authorities, but if we look here at P3708, which is a meeting of

25     22 May, two days later, of the Prijedor Crisis Staff, it provides that --

Page 43659

 1     or it directs all commercial and social enterprises to introduce

 2     permanent operational duty "in accordance with the decision of the

 3     Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina ..."

 4             No ambiguity there, Mr. Brdjanin, is there?  And that's a

 5     reflection of Prijedor's contemporaneous hierarchical organ --

 6     hierarchical understanding; correct?

 7        A.   On the 26th of April, 1992, I'm talking this precisely, the

 8     Ministry of Defence called up mobilisation, where work obligation is

 9     understood as part of the mobilisation.  In the Crisis Staff and all

10     other organs were only those who were to execute this, to implement it,

11     and here the idea is to imply that the author of the document was the

12     Crisis Staff.  No.  We received the order and I too was assigned for work

13     obligation.  Some were assigned to armed forces, others had the work

14     obligation in various ways, and there was Territorial Defence also.  So

15     it wasn't an original document of the Crisis Staff, as implied, but only

16     implementation of what the ministry ordered on the 26th of April, 1992,

17     to the Ministry of Defence.

18        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Let's fast-forward to late June 1992 because

19     you refer to this initial honeymoon period.  So let's look at some period

20     later.

21             MR. TIEGER:  If we could turn to P2740.  That's a 22 June 1992

22     ARK Crisis Staff decision which is being forwarded by the --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

24             MR. TIEGER:  -- Prijedor Crisis Staff.  If we could turn to

25     the -- let's just take a look at that underlying decision first.

Page 43660

 1        Q.   This refers to --

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   -- prohibitions on various kinds of employment and --

 4        A.   No, this is -- may I?

 5             MR. TIEGER:  And if we could turn to page 3, please.  And B/C/S

 6     page 4 for the benefit of the witness.  Okay.

 7        Q.   We can see the very next day the Prijedor Crisis Staff forwarding

 8     the ARK Crisis Staff decision for implementation.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  And then if we could turn quickly to a related

10     document, P2637.  Page 1 refers to the earlier Crisis Staff document

11     dated the 23rd of June, 1992; that's 02-111-236/92.  And on page -- so

12     that's what we looked at earlier, that was page 3 of the English and

13     page 4 of the B/C/S of the previous document.

14             And finally let's turn to P2637, we can see the final report on

15     its implementation.  And that's at page 2 in both languages.

16        Q.   And there we see a report on the ARK Crisis Staff decision we

17     looked at first of 22 June, that's 03-531 of 22 June 1992.  And the

18     document states that it "has been implemented in this public security

19     station ..."

20             So these documents that we've just looked at reflect in Prijedor,

21     Mr. Brdjanin, the active implementation of ARK Crisis Staff decisions

22     following the initial declaration that ARK Crisis Staff decisions would

23     indeed be binding and the decisions were now being forwarded from the top

24     through to the ARK Crisis Staff and to the municipalities; right?

25        A.   Can you please bring back the original of the document dated the

Page 43661

 1     22nd so that I may give an answer on the basis of that?

 2        Q.   Okay.  And just looking at this document, just note the number is

 3     03-531 of 22 June.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  And then the witness has asked to see again P2740,

 5     at page 1.

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, that brings up something that I was

 7     also concerned about.  I think that this practice of putting multiple

 8     documents to the witness and asking a question at the end is -- makes it

 9     very difficult for the witness.  I notice on line 20 he tried to

10     intervene and now he's asked to go back to another document.  So I would

11     ask that the Chamber order Mr. Tieger to elicit a comment from the

12     witness after showing him an individual document, even if it's only to

13     ask is this an example of whatever Mr. Tieger is trying to establish.

14     But if we try to make the witness keep in his head three documents, I

15     don't think it's fair to the witness.

16             MR. TIEGER:  Well, three documents --

17             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

18             Thank you.  Let's see how it evolves, but putting so many

19     documents before you ask a question, it may make witness difficult in

20     answering the questions.  Shall we continue?

21             Let's have a break after this.

22             MR. TIEGER:  Okay.

23        Q.   2740 will be in front of you in just a moment, sir.  That's the

24     ARK Crisis Staff decision of 22 June.

25        A.   I wanted to see this document again because you can see this is a

Page 43662

 1     document of general nature that I did sign, one of the few that I did

 2     sign.  Later on I received documents that even mention prisoners.  Here I

 3     have a judgement in my hand where the Chamber decided that I didn't have

 4     any powers over either the army or the police, especially it was very

 5     clear who dealt with the prisoners.  I can confirm what this document

 6     said, but I cannot confirm what Simo Drljaca as chief of police said.

 7     When you look at the judgement and you see that the command in the police

 8     went along the chain of command within the Ministry of the Interior and

 9     this is a final judgement.  That was the reason why I wanted to see this

10     document again.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness said twice in line 18,

14     16 or 17, he said that this is a general document, whereas this has not

15     been recorded.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Which document of general nature?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The one that we see on the screen

18     and that has been commented by the witness.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I --

20             MR. TIEGER:  It's in the transcript --

21             JUDGE KWON:  -- heard that and it will be corrected in due

22     course.

23             MR. TIEGER:  It's right in line 14.  I don't know what the

24     problem is.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Oh, yes.  Yes, "you can see this is a document of

Page 43663

 1     general nature," yes, it's there.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But it was repeated later on

 3     several times and not recorded as such.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we take a break or would you like to wrap-up

 5     this question?

 6             MR. TIEGER:  No, that's fine, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  All right.

 8             We'll have a break for half an hour and resume at 11.05.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 11.08 a.m.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Let's continue, Mr. Tieger.

12             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13        Q.   Mr. Brdjanin, just before the recess, at transcript page 34, you

14     said:

15             "Here I have a judgement in my hand where the Chamber decided

16     that I didn't have any power over either the army or the police,

17     especially it was very clear who dealt with the prisoners."

18             In fact, that's not accurate.  What your Trial Chamber, in fact,

19     found with respect to your authority over the police can be found both at

20     paragraphs 212, 213, and 214.  So if we turn to 212, while it is true

21     that the Chamber -- that your Trial Chamber found "the ARK Crisis Staff

22     did not possess de jure power to issue orders to the police" - that's the

23     last sentence of that short paragraph, 212 - it found, as we see

24     reflected in paragraph 213, that:

25             "In practice, however, the authorities of the ARK in general and

Page 43664

 1     the ARK Crisis Staff in particular had de facto authority over the police

 2     and co-ordinated the actions taken by the police."

 3             And it goes on to explain that in particular, orders to the

 4     police were issued and implemented concerning dismissals of non-Serbs

 5     from employment, disarmament of paramilitary units and individuals who

 6     illegally possessed weapons, selectively enforced against non-Serbs, and

 7     resettlement of the non-Serb population.

 8             That is a more accurate account of what your Trial Chamber found

 9     with respect to your authority over the police, isn't it, sir?

10        A.   The Trial Chamber -- I'm a bit confused because I'm trying to

11     locate the conclusion that specifically refers to the armed forces and

12     the police.  Everything is accurate.  The judgement was based on the

13     de facto basis and based on the indicia.  If people had de jure, they

14     were found not guilty for de facto, but not in my case.  But I'm not

15     going to go into all these details, we don't want to listen to that.

16     Anyway, I know that it is said here that the command responsibility was

17     based on the superiority and subordination principle in the Ministry of

18     the Interior.  You used the word "order."  I suppose that was used

19     inadvertently because the Crisis Staff only delivered decisions.  I never

20     signed any document that contains the word "order."

21        Q.   Decisions which we have seen were considered binding by the

22     municipal authorities, although I appreciate that you continued to

23     dispute that point; correct?  But that's what your Trial Chamber found,

24     the municipal authorities did consider them binding?

25        A.   Yes, that is the Trial Chamber's conclusion.  Perhaps my Defence

Page 43665

 1     failed to explain it correctly, but I stand by it and I assert that that

 2     was not the case.

 3        Q.   And as long as we have the trial judgement open, perhaps I can

 4     quickly turn to an issue raised in paragraph 23 of your statement, that

 5     is, that the position of the ARK --

 6        A.   [In English] Just a moment.

 7        Q.   Yeah, 23 is the paragraph at issue in your statement, where you

 8     state that the position of the ARK Crisis Staff about Muslims and Croats

 9     leaving the ARK never included forcible transfer or deportation.

10        A.   [Interpretation] Yes.

11        Q.   Your Trial Chamber found - and the judgement reflected at

12     paragraph 248 -- so it's paragraph 248 of the trial judgement, sir, which

13     I'm turning to now - that another measure taken in furtherance of the

14     strategic plan --

15        A.   Just a moment, please.  Okay.

16        Q.   That paragraph reflected the Trial Chamber's finding that:

17             "Another measure taken in furtherance of the Strategic Plan was

18     the resettlement of the non-Serb population.  This entailed the permanent

19     expulsion of non-Serb inhabitants from the ARK and the repopulation of

20     the area with Bosnian Serb refugees coming from other parts of Bosnia and

21     Herzegovina and Croatia."

22        A.   I'm sorry, 248 is not identical with this.  I'm not saying that

23     it's incorrect, but there is some discrepancy, perhaps due to the English

24     version.  Is this my judgement at all?  Well, yes, it is.

25        Q.   Well, I can assure you I'm --

Page 43666

 1        A.   No, no.  I believe that, but what I have here is something

 2     completely different --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Are you reading trial judgement?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No -- oh, God.  [In English] Sorry.

 5     [Interpretation] 248, yes.  My mistake.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's all right now.

 8             MR. TIEGER:

 9        Q.   Okay.  And it continued that:

10             "The resettlement policy within the territory of the Bosnian

11     Krajina was co-ordinated at the regional level by the ARK Crisis Staff."

12     And that the decisions -- "the ARK Crisis Staff decisions on the

13     resettlement of non-Serbs are indicative of its involvement in the

14     furtherance of the Strategic Plan ..."

15             So with respect to the ARK's -- the ARK Crisis Staff's position

16     on transfer -- forcible transfer/deportation, that was the finding of

17     your Trial Chamber; correct?

18        A.   During the main trial, I said to my Defence lawyer the following:

19     There was no strategic plan ever about forcible relocation, particularly

20     not in the sense as stipulated here.  This is very serious.  You can

21     attribute everything to Serbs, but you can never attribute it to them

22     having made some kind of plans because we are a people prone to

23     improvisation.  Quite simply, there was no plan.  We followed the

24     situation which dictated for people to be relocated rather than to be

25     killed or to perish.  This happened due to a variety of reasons, fear and

Page 43667

 1     everything else, not only on the Serbian part.  People moved for various

 2     reasons.  I'm not trying to justify this, I'm not commending this; I'm

 3     just telling you that that was what the situation required.

 4        Q.   And one more paragraph, at 233, with respect to this same issue,

 5     the Trial Chamber found dismissals of non-Serbs was one of the first

 6     measures toward the implementation of the strategic plan referred to in

 7     the previous paragraph; correct?

 8        A.   I'm very glad that you raised this issue because there were no

 9     dismissals as such but people were reassigned to different work-places,

10     which was done by any political party anywhere in the world once they win

11     elections.  This is the practice in every country all over the world.

12     This is not about dismissals.  This is about not their being able to be

13     in executive positions after the winning of the SDS, and specifically in

14     view of the situation that prevailed that might have caused a rift among

15     our ranks.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to speak more

17     slowly.  Thank you.

18             MR. TIEGER:

19        Q.   Mr. Brdjanin, you're being asked by the interpreters to slow down

20     your rate of speech.  So --

21             JUDGE KWON:  Can I interrupt --

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second -- yes, Mr. Karadzic first.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness said that it might be

25     prejudicial to our defence, that's page 39, lines 24 and 25.  This is

Page 43668

 1     nonsense what has been recorded.  What he said was that it could damage

 2     our defence effort.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  A minute ago, Mr. Brdjanin, you said the following,

 4     I'll quote:

 5             "You can attribute everything to Serbs, but you can never

 6     attribute it to them having made some kind of plans because we are a

 7     people prone to improvisation."

 8             Do you remember having said that, Mr. Brdjanin?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Could you expand what kind of plans were you talking

11     about as a result of improvisation?  Could you be more specific?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps I can explain this very

13     briefly.  Due to the fact that we are a people of great individuals, and

14     if we had only one party, we would have become an opposition to our own

15     party.  This is neither positive nor negative in my view.  Believe me, at

16     the state level and at the level of state plans, there were plans on how

17     to defend ourselves or how to wrap-up our territories if others didn't

18     want to live to us; however, there was never any plan or there were no

19     political instructions how to harm other people, how to expel them, or

20     how to disenfranchise them.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  I can understand that.  But you talked about

22     plan as a means of improvisation, so could you expand on that.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  Since I'm an engineer by

24     profession, you cannot have an improvised plan.  What I actually wanted

25     to say was that there were no such plans that are being mentioned in all

Page 43669

 1     the judgements, not only that against me.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  I'll leave it at that.

 3             Please continue, Mr. Tieger.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 5        Q.   Mr. Brdjanin, just to clarify, the answer you provided to my

 6     question about the paragraph regarding dismissals is -- that is --

 7     sorry -- that is, people were reassigned to different work-places, it's

 8     the practice in every country around the world, et cetera, was the same

 9     position that was argued to -- by the Defence in your case to the

10     Trial Chamber, but the paragraph I read to you at 233 about what the

11     Trial Chamber found regarding dismissals, that is, that it was one of the

12     first measures toward the implementation of the strategic plan, was in

13     fact what your Trial Chamber did find; correct?

14        A.   That is correct.  The Trial Chamber reached conclusions which

15     were totally contrary to what our assertions were, but that was

16     completely beyond my control.

17        Q.   Now, let me turn to another topic, and that is some of your own

18     efforts to implement the positions taken by the republic-level

19     authorities.  It's correct to say, is it not, that, for example, in 1991

20     you were actively involved in ensuring the implementation of policies

21     formulated by Mr. Karadzic which he directly communicated to you and

22     which you then communicated to the municipalities and attempted to

23     implement?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we get some more specific

25     details as regards which policy the Prosecutor is referring to.

Page 43670

 1             MR. TIEGER:  I don't believe the witness sought assistance on

 2     that question, but if he does we will address whatever inquiry he has.

 3        Q.   The answer is yes?

 4        A.   Yes.  I also need to know more.

 5        Q.   Were you in contact with Mr. Karadzic in 1991, telephone contact,

 6     personal contact?

 7        A.   Well, most probably I was.  Now if you ask me 23 years later, I

 8     don't know whether it happened often.  He had other commitments, not to

 9     speak to me on a daily basis.  But if you are interested in which policy,

10     I can only tell you exactly what I know.

11        Q.   And did he entrust to you the responsibility to ensure the

12     implementation of positions that he had taken, the implementation of

13     actions that he wanted to see taken on the ground?

14        A.   Well, first of all, there was no Mr. Karadzic policy, but rather

15     the policy of the Serbian Democratic Party that won the elections at

16     least in the Serbian entity and among the Serbian people.  Secondly,

17     perhaps -- but not perhaps, most probably, he charged me with this but I

18     wasn't able to do it on my own.  This was not the president's policy

19     because that was the policy that had to be implemented at this particular

20     point in time.  Don't forget that we had lived in a beautiful country of

21     Yugoslavia and the Serbs were the only people who were eager to preserve

22     this country and prevent it from breaking up.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Two interventions in the

24     transcript.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 43671

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On page 42 the witness said:  Most

 2     probably I do not deny, is what he said.  And just now he said that:  He

 3     charged me with something but not with that.  He used the word

 4     "something."

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Let's continue.  Thank you.

 6             MR. TIEGER:

 7        Q.   And --

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It would be much easier for

 9     everyone if the witness spoke more slowly.

10             MR. TIEGER:

11        Q.   And you expressed your loyalty and commitment to the principle of

12     hierarchy and the need to obey the commands of those above you and the

13     need for those below you to obey the commands that you made or passed on;

14     right?

15        A.   It's very difficult to give you a yes or no answer.  Some people

16     considered me as an opposition and other people considered me what you

17     described as they saw fit.  At any rate, at that point in time I was part

18     of the winning team that won the elections, and of course I had my own

19     opinions, but I did, however, often realise that I have to respect the

20     opinion of the majority.

21        Q.   Mr. Brdjanin, the nature of your relationship with Dr. Karadzic

22     in 1991 was such that he, in one telephone conversation in late October

23     of 1991, chided you for coming to him with every single little problem

24     and told you that he's not your nanny, that you had the power in your

25     hands and he wanted you to exercise that power energetically and fully.

Page 43672

 1     That's the truth of your relationship with Mr. Karadzic in 1991, isn't

 2     it?

 3        A.   What follows from this is that we basically talked every day;

 4     however, you do have to know that Mr. Karadzic was so busy that if you'd

 5     call him twice in two months' time he could have said that and he usually

 6     would say that because he was way too busy.  But please do not infer that

 7     we talked every day; I would not have had that opportunity.

 8             In 1991, conditionally speaking, I was unknown.  It's not that I

 9     could talk to anybody whenever I wanted to.  I mean, it's not that I was

10     absolutely unknown.  I don't want it to look as if I were lying now, but

11     it's not that I was held in such regard that I could talk to whoever I

12     wanted to whenever I wanted to.

13        Q.   Mr. Brdjanin, in late October 1991, there was a meeting of all

14     the municipality presidents and that happened in Banja Luka.  And that

15     resulted in the so-called Sarajevo -- the SDS order or Sarajevo order,

16     which included such things as immediately forming commands of the town,

17     setting up around-the-clock duty, full mobility of the

18     Territorial Defence, taking over management in public enterprises, the

19     post office, the SDK, and by all means the media, and other matters.  And

20     the person put in charge of implementing that was you; right?  And that's

21     a more accurate reflection of your relationship with the accused and your

22     power at the time than what you told us in the previous answer.

23        A.   In October 1991, I think as far as I can remember, I was

24     vice-president of the Assembly of the Autonomous Region of the Krajina.

25     I could receive such instructions within the autonomous region where

Page 43673

 1     there was a president and a president of the government, if you will, of

 2     the Autonomous Region of the Krajina, and my answer would not really

 3     differ from my previous answer.  All things that one had to do were not

 4     always based on trust.  It depended on who had what kind of affinity for

 5     organisation.  Perhaps it's because of my profession, because in the

 6     business sector I was always in charge of setting up some kind of

 7     organisation.  That would imply good management or at least average of

 8     good management.

 9        Q.   The document I referred to before is P3581, it's a

10     29 October 1991 Telex regarding the order of the SDS Sarajevo.

11             MR. TIEGER:  If we can call up 3581 and look to the second page

12     in English.

13        Q.   There you can see that you, sir, are the -- sending this out on

14     behalf of Dr. Karadzic as the co-ordinator for implementing decisions,

15     these decisions; right?  So contrary to your previous emphasis on what

16     you tried to characterise as your limited position, you are implementing

17     these important -- you are charged with implementing these important

18     decisions by Dr. Karadzic?

19        A.   Without wanting to pay you compliments, I believe that you're not

20     in that position -- I mean, you are in that position because you're a

21     good lawyer, and you know full well that co-ordinator does not mean that

22     one has decision-making powers.  And what it says here is "co-ordinator,"

23     and thank you for showing this document.

24        Q.   I wasn't saying that you made that decision.  I'm saying that

25     you're in charge of co-ordinating the implementation of those decisions

Page 43674

 1     made at the republic level, and that's the truth of it, right?  And

 2     that's a reflection of the power that was entrusted to you by

 3     Dr. Karadzic?

 4        A.   I'm going to repeat this once again.  It is true that this came

 5     to me and that I was the co-ordinator, but if I may just say this

 6     regarding paragraphs 1 and 2, that was superfluous then and it is now.

 7     There was an army, the JNA then, that did not allow the establishment of

 8     any kind of town commands or whatever, and later on we are going to see

 9     when it was that the Army of Republika Srpska was established; however,

10     what we inherited was the JNA because Yugoslavia was still in existence

11     in October 1991.

12        Q.   And this Trial Chamber has received evidence that on

13     September 7th, there was a meeting in Pale, the so-called Pale symposium,

14     to make decisions regarding regionalisation and that on the 6th,

15     Dr. Karadzic spoke to President Milosevic, told him he'd be holding this

16     plenary with all his officials.  That was held on the 7th and decisions

17     were made, and we see an intercepted telephone conversation from a

18     Main Board member describing the decision that was made about dividing

19     Bosnia into units.

20             Now, before that decision was made, before that meeting was held

21     on the 7th of September, Dr. Karadzic called you and -- to advise you

22     that there would be a meeting at which important things would be decided

23     and that everything that you thought or wanted would happen but would

24     move forward in a particular way, and that's reflected at P5886.  And I

25     want you to take a look at that quickly.

Page 43675

 1             Now, I want you to look at the second page of the English and the

 2     second page of the B/C/S as well.  Okay.  That's where Dr. Karadzic says:

 3     If you had brought the decision on the referendum, it would have been

 4     terrible.  You tell him we have not -- have not obeyed.  Dr. Karadzic

 5     tells you:  There's no problem, Brdjo, come tomorrow, you will see --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Could we please see exactly where you're

 7     reading from.  Thank you.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  In the English it's about the one-third down from

 9     the top of the page and in the B/C/S it's up at the top.

10             JUDGE KWON:  You started reading from the line below the

11     underlined sentence.

12             MR. TIEGER:  Right.  Thank you, Mr. President.  Right.

13        Q.   And then we continue:

14             "There is no problem, Brdjo, come tomorrow you will see.  We do

15     all and everything will be what you think, only, only way is ..."

16             And then Dr. Karadzic goes on to describe what Tudjman is

17     thinking, and then he talks about Van den Broek trying to convince

18     Milosevic and he continues:

19             "And now they need to mess that Conference up, and now they are

20     looking for any way to mess that Conference up tomorrow ..."

21             Now, that reference to the conference tomorrow is a reference to

22     the opening of the Conference on Yugoslavia in the Peace Palace, right,

23     on September 7th; correct?  If you need some refreshment about the date,

24     I have a document that would reflect that date.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, could we take a look at the

Page 43676

 1     date when this conversation took place so that we do not mislead the

 2     witness.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  The date -- I'm suggesting that this intercept is

 4     misdated on its heading and I'm trying to contextualise it on the basis

 5     of exactly what was stated at the time with the witness, who was just

 6     about to confirm that it is a reference to the opening of the Conference

 7     on Yugoslavia because he was nodding his head "yes."

 8        Q.   Is that correct, Mr. Brdjanin, this is a reference to the

 9     Conference on Yugoslavia?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And do you recall on your own or would you like to see a document

12     that indicates the conference opened on September 7th, 1991?

13        A.   Well, I couldn't remember that it started on the 7th, but that's

14     what you read out and I have no reason to doubt that.

15        Q.   Okay.  Well, we can quickly turn to 65 ter 06436, and there we

16     see the declaration on the occasion of the ceremonial opening of the

17     Conference on Yugoslavia, Peace Palace, The Hague, 7 September 1991.  I

18     take it from your nodding your head that conforms to your general

19     recollection of the date?

20        A.   Yes.

21             MR. TIEGER:  And I tender that, Mr. President.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But there's something important in

23     this document.

24             MR. TIEGER:

25        Q.   Okay.  If it's dealing with the subject we're dealing with.

Page 43677

 1        A.   An intercept, when Mr. Karadzic says "you should," it doesn't

 2     pertain to me only but to the members of parliament.  We had

 3     17 presidents of municipalities, 20 MPs, Krajina was two-thirds of our

 4     entity.  Here one gets the impression that it pertains to me only, no.

 5     It is all the representatives of the people from that part of

 6     Republika Srpska.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  We'll receive the declaration.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6513, Your Honours.

10             MR. TIEGER:

11        Q.   And with respect to your own authority, in contrast to other

12     representatives of the Serbian people from that part of Republika Srpska,

13     what your Trial Chamber found at paragraph 295 is that the top leadership

14     of the Serbian BiH of Republika Srpska granted you a high degree of

15     authority and autonomy in areas of fundamental political importance,

16     which is indicative of the trust that you enjoyed at the highest

17     political level.  That's what your Trial Chamber concluded after the

18     trial was completed about your own authority, in contrast to some of the

19     other people you just referred to.

20        A.   It is correct that those were the findings of the Trial Chamber.

21     That was the greatest surprise because the Trial Chamber found that I

22     should be acquitted in terms of the joint criminal enterprise because

23     their assessment was that often my views were quite different, not to say

24     the opposite.  But I do not see any document that shows that I was given

25     some kind of political power.  Which document is that?  Minister of civil

Page 43678

 1     engineering, nowhere in the world is that political power.  This is

 2     professional.  Also the deputy prime minister in charge of economic

 3     affairs, I don't know, perhaps I don't understand this.  But rest assured

 4     that my thoughts are sincere, that I'm not trying to hide anything, I'm

 5     just thinking out loud, and I have this opportunity now to say what I

 6     think.

 7        Q.   Now, we -- this Trial Chamber has heard evidence of the tensions

 8     surrounding the efforts to declare Krajina a republic, tensions that were

 9     resolved on the 29th of February, 1992, at the 14th Session of the

10     ARK Assembly.  And a couple of weeks after that Assembly, you explained

11     to the public that while there were differences between the Banja Luka

12     and Sarajevo options for solving the Serbian question, there were no

13     divisions and that you people from Krajina did not wish to split-off from

14     the body of the Serbian people in BH, but did want to split-off from

15     Alija.  And in that regard, let me assist you by showing you

16     65 ter 05419, a "Glas" newspaper article dated the 15th of March, 1992,

17     which is D3070.

18        A.   May I respond?

19        Q.   Well, first of all, that's -- that reflects your -- the newspaper

20     article reflects your comments and positions in mid-March 1992; correct?

21        A.   Yes, I see the comments and positions here, but may I respond to

22     your question about us wanting to split-off from Alija?

23        Q.   Well, that wasn't precisely the question I was really focused on,

24     the division, but I see that the article raises your comment that you

25     want to split-off from Alija.  So if you have something to say briefly

Page 43679

 1     about that, please do so.

 2        A.   Yes, I made a mistake when I said that we wanted to split-off

 3     from Alija.  Actually, it was Alija who wanted to split-off from

 4     Yugoslavia and from us, and we had no reason to split-off from anyone.

 5     Because at that point in time we were still defending Yugoslavia by all

 6     possible political means.

 7        Q.   All right.  Let me jump ahead now from mid-March, then, to the

 8     period shortly after the 16th Assembly Session which was held on

 9     May 12th, 1992, in Banja Luka.  I mentioned that date in particular

10     because you mentioned the -- yourself a few moments ago the establishment

11     of the army and so on.  So we can agree, I take it, that at the

12     16th Assembly Session in Banja Luka the VRS was formally established,

13     General Mladic was selected as the commander of the Main Staff, the

14     strategic objectives were annunciated by Dr. Karadzic, and there was a

15     general discussion of the political and security situation at that time;

16     correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Now, not more than three weeks after that session in Banja Luka,

19     Dr. Karadzic met with you once again but this time in a somewhat smaller

20     setting of more selected people, correct, also in Banja Luka?

21        A.   I'm sorry, do you have a document that could jog my memory?

22     After all, it was 23 years ago, 22 years ago, I don't know exactly which

23     meeting you have in mind.

24        Q.   Sure.

25             MR. TIEGER:  Could we call up P1478, page 53 in both languages.

Page 43680

 1        Q.   Mr. Brdjanin, while we're waiting for the document to come up,

 2     this is an entry in the war journal kept by General Mladic between

 3     1991 and 1995.  And this reflects an entry for the 2nd of June, 1992, in

 4     Banja Luka, a meeting with the leaderships of the Bosnian Krajina, the

 5     SRK, and unit commanders of the 1st Krajina Corps, and the commander of

 6     the air force and anti-aircraft defence of the Serbian BH.  And if we --

 7     I'll direct your attention to this in a moment, but if we -- well,

 8     let's -- familiarise yourself with what it says here.  It's Dr. Karadzic

 9     who speaks about the issue of the functioning of authorities, talks about

10     the tasks of the authorities, indicates that a decree has been issued on

11     War Presidencies.  Agents of the government will be sent to the junior

12     organs of the authorities.  If we can turn the page, there we see you

13     speaking, and among the things you say is:

14             "Everything in the ARK is done at Crisis Staff level because that

15     is where the work -- that is where work all of.

16             "It is a mistake to appoint agents from the centre ..."

17             And if we can -- I --

18        A.   I would --

19        Q.   I mean, I can ask you about separate pieces of this, but I wanted

20     to show you also before we -- before I ask you questions, another

21     document which also reflects this meeting.  So perhaps I can do that now.

22     This is a document --

23             MR. TIEGER:  I mean, I think we have to go into closed session

24     for this -- go into private session, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Why don't you put a question about this while we are

Page 43681

 1     in public session?

 2             MR. TIEGER:  Well, I was going to show this one so he has the

 3     aggregated information of -- that's available about that meeting and then

 4     aggregate the questions as well so we don't have to go in and out of

 5     private session for questions.  I thought if I -- if he had the

 6     information available and then I ask questions about it, it would be more

 7     efficient and more public than asking questions first, going to another

 8     document, asking questions about that in private session, and coming back

 9     to the public -- that's the issue I had in mind.  I'm at your disposal,

10     of course, but I thought it through, I actually talked it over with

11     Mr. Robinson, and thought that might be the best way to do it.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Let's deal with this document first.

13             MR. TIEGER:  Okay.

14        Q.   All right.  Well, first of all, Mr. Brdjanin, does that refresh

15     your recollection about this meeting generally, that you met with

16     Dr. Karadzic and some of the people whose positions are reflected in the

17     first part of the document?

18        A.   First of all, had you not shown me this document, I would have

19     only remembered that I was opposed to the appointment of commissioners

20     and if I can explain that in two sentences why.  Because usually people

21     that I called sycophants were usually the ones who were candidates for

22     these positions and nobody could hear the real truth or anything good

23     from these people.  So I was opposed to that.  I would not be able to

24     remember this meeting just off-the-cuff, but now I do remember.

25     Especially in Banja Luka there was this commissioner who was not even

Page 43682

 1     respected by his own family, so, of course, he couldn't have had the kind

 2     of respect that a commissioner was supposed to enjoy.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  The question was also asked about the entry which

 4     says:

 5             "Everything in the ARK is done at Crisis Staff level ..."

 6             Do you have any observation on that?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I do.  Yes.  That was a

 8     response to the appointment of commissioners.  That is contained in my

 9     statement; you'll be able to find it.  Perhaps that is what made me

10     decide not to attend a few sessions of the Crisis Staff because I

11     realised that since the commissioner was appointed, the authority of the

12     Crisis Staff was no longer there.  Even in municipalities where we tried

13     to exercise some influence, we realised that we couldn't do that because

14     it was the commissioners that now had a say.

15             MR. TIEGER:

16        Q.   Well, Mr. Brdjanin, let's try to put this in context.  First of

17     all, you were responding here to the information provided by

18     Mr. Karadzic, that he'd be appointing commissioners to come -- to go to

19     the regions and the municipalities and to oversee what was done; correct?

20     He told you he was going to do that and you objected to it?

21        A.   I personally do not remember whether it was at that meeting or

22     whether I received this in writing, but I do know that it had come from

23     the top and that I was opposed to commissioners then, and now, 22 years

24     later, I'm still opposed to that.

25        Q.   And what you told Dr. Karadzic at that meeting, as reflected here

Page 43683

 1     in these notes, is that everything is done at the Crisis Staff level.

 2     Crisis Staff is doing that, so it's a mistake to appoint agents from the

 3     centre.  There's no need to do that; right?  You told him it was

 4     pointless and he shouldn't do it.

 5        A.   The sentence pertains to the following, that the Crisis Staff is

 6     receiving information about everything that the Crisis Staff is in charge

 7     of -- well, often not but often yes.  And there is no need for there to

 8     be yet a third party that is going to convey this information

 9     second-hand.  So I'm not saying that we should be doing everything

10     because it was well known that we were just doing things that belonged to

11     the field of the economy and logistical support to the armed forces.

12        Q.   And, in fact, Mr. Brdjanin, although commissioners were appointed

13     in that month in such places as Bratunac, that's P5491; or Vlasenica,

14     P5486; or Zvornik P5479; or Foca, P3339, during the period of time that

15     the ARK Crisis Staff was in existence, no commissioner was appointed for

16     that area, and your position that there was no need to do so because the

17     ARK -- because the work was done at the level of the ARK Crisis Staff was

18     adhered to, was followed.  Isn't that correct?

19        A.   I know that you have the date when the commissioner was appointed

20     in Banja Luka.  I cannot just say yes or no to you now, but I know what

21     his name is.  You know it too.  So sorry that I'm asking that, but you

22     can tell me when he was appointed.  Mr. Jovan Cizmovic was commissioner,

23     except that I don't know from when until when.  That's the only thing I

24     don't know.

25        Q.   Well, we do not have any records reflecting the appointment of a

Page 43684

 1     commissioner for that area until Mr. Kupresanin was appointed

 2     commissioner for a few isolated municipalities on the 27th of November,

 3     1992.  It is correct that we have evidence that Cizmovic served in a

 4     co-ordinating role, an important co-ordinating role in the latter part of

 5     December 1991 and the early part of 1992, but now I'm talking about

 6     commissioners.  So you asked for the information that -- that we have and

 7     that's --

 8        A.   I don't know.  I don't know.  Look, I didn't want to mislead you

 9     in any way, but I just know that all my life and throughout the war I

10     fought against war profiteers and I did not personally have any regard

11     for him because as people were losing their lives, he just cared about

12     making more money in his law office.  And I'm not ashamed of thinking

13     that.  I've said that publicly.  And unfortunately, we all seem to be

14     losers now, are on the losing end, and it's only the war profiteers that

15     have won.  And when I said "won," I mean among all three peoples, all

16     three ethnic communities.

17        Q.   I'm going to return --

18             JUDGE KWON:  Who's "he," Mr. Brdjanin?  He just cared about

19     making more money in his law office, who did you refer to?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This gentleman, the co-ordinator as

21     he was called or the commissioner.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Because we heard two names, Cizmovic and Kupresanin.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not Kupresanin.  Kupresanin has

24     nothing to do with profiteers; that referred to Cizmovic.

25             MR. TIEGER:  I'm going to return to this document in a moment,

Page 43685

 1     but meanwhile if we could go to private session, I'd like to go to

 2     65 ter 07539.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 43686











11  Pages 43686-43689 redacted.  Private session.















Page 43690

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session.

19             MR. TIEGER:  And next page, please, where Mr. Brdjanin is

20     speaking.

21        Q.   Mr. Brdjanin, while waiting for the English to come up, you'll

22     see that's the portion of your comments that we looked at previously, but

23     they continue on to the next page, at page 54.

24        A.   I see what we already commented on about the commissioner.

25        Q.   54, please.  There you say the problem of the Krajina,

Page 43691

 1     14.500 Muslims, and if we continue on to the next page, the last question

 2     you ask:

 3             "About prisoners and refugees?  A position please at the highest

 4     level."

 5             So that last comment, a position about prisoners from the highest

 6     level, that's a reflection, is it not, of the many Muslims and Croats at

 7     that time being held in facilities within the Krajina; correct?

 8        A.   Not in facilities.  You can read it here, this 14.500 has to do

 9     with the exact number of Muslims according to the census from 1991 in

10     Banja Luka.  I don't know, I don't understand which facilities you mean.

11        Q.   I'm looking at the comment about prisoners and refugees.  Do you

12     see that in front of you right now?

13        A.   Oh, that's another issue.  We requested the position because it

14     was known then who had the right to issue the recommendations according

15     to the Geneva Conventions.  It was the Ministry of Defence.

16             But please allow me to point out one very important thing in

17     connection with this document now that you've brought it back.  I'm proud

18     that I was opposed to the commissioners, but I didn't say the most

19     important thing.  They were not appointed by Karadzic but he signed at

20     the proposal of the base, and I tried to persuade the president that the

21     base proposed wrong people so that you wouldn't have the impression that

22     President Karadzic brought these people from somewhere.  He only signed

23     this, and I'm obliged to clarify that.  I said that I knew who these

24     people were.  I was not believed.  In the end, it turned out that I was

25     right.  But it had nothing to do with appointing them because the base

Page 43692

 1     proposed them because they were trying to -- the people who proposed them

 2     were trying to woo the lower instances by doing so.

 3             MR. TIEGER:

 4        Q.   Let's -- let's -- thank you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] One remark about the interpretation

 6     about prisoners and detainees or prisoners is in English and it should be

 7     prisoners of war, because that's not the same thing.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  We've been through this before.  If there's a

 9     problem with the translation, there are ways to handle it.  And this is a

10     recurring issue and the Trial Chamber has spoken on it before.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Let's continue.

12             MR. TIEGER:

13        Q.   Now, Mr. Brdjanin, what prisoners were you referring to?

14        A.   Generally speaking, in any war regulations are issued, military

15     ones, how to treat prisoners, this kind and that kind, various

16     categories.  That's what I had in mind.  We do not --

17        Q.   No, no, no, no.  Mr. Brdjanin, I'm not talking about the category

18     of the term "prisoners."  I want to know what human beings you were

19     referring to when you said:  We want a position about prisoners and

20     refugees.  You were aware by that time that there were people, that is,

21     Muslims and Croats, being held in facilities, weren't you?

22        A.   I have said that in my statement.  I know that no one believes

23     that in this Tribunal.  Many things were not known and I didn't know,

24     because it was no public secret.  You don't think that someone who was

25     doing something unlawfully announced that on TV and in the press and so

Page 43693

 1     on.  We were obliged to read the military and civilian regulations and

 2     everything because we had a state of war, even though Republika Srpska

 3     never declared the war.  But we needed to know this precisely in order to

 4     prevent some people who may behave differently than what is prescribed by

 5     international conventions such as the Geneva ones and so on.

 6        Q.   So your testimony is that you wanted to know from Dr. Karadzic

 7     whether there was going to be a position on prisoners that accorded with

 8     the Geneva Conventions or a position that was contrary to or different

 9     from the Geneva Conventions?  So you had to ask him whether or not you

10     should abide with the Geneva Conventions; is that it?

11        A.   No.  No, no, no, no.

12        Q.   You were asking for a position at the highest level about

13     prisoners; right?

14        A.   Yes, we requested the position because many people who

15     participated in the war were not familiar with Geneva Conventions and

16     regulations and rules.  We know that in every war at least 2 or

17     3 per cent of people are the so-called dogs of war who are ready to do

18     something bad and that everyone should have instructions on what to do,

19     such as those that were issued by the minister of defence, how each

20     soldier has to treat a prisoner, and we wanted to have as many people to

21     be reached by that.  You cannot tell me that you know how anyone is going

22     to act in any war in the world.  Because that was our wish too.  Not

23     everyone is educated, not everyone is literate and not everyone has

24     goodwill.  Unfortunately, it turned out that there were those who did not

25     have the goodwill and that's why something like that ought to exist.

Page 43694

 1        Q.   So that's your testimony about what you said to Dr. Karadzic at

 2     that meeting, something to the effect of:  You know, just in case we get

 3     any prisoners, can you have some kind of symposium or send out a pamphlet

 4     about what our position is and whether it will accord with the

 5     Geneva Conventions; is that basically it?  That's what you were talking

 6     about at this meeting?

 7        A.   First of all, I think that the question is -- let me not say

 8     quite strange.  So if we had any prisoners -- I couldn't take any

 9     prisoners.  I was a civilian organ.  We just wanted to have it in

10     writing.  I repeat, there are always people who are willing to commit

11     what is called a crime.  We only wanted to have this in existence.  We

12     knew that the ministry issued it.  We knew that it was sent, but we

13     believed that it wasn't distributed widely enough because the

14     mobilisation was massive at one point.

15        Q.   Mr. Brdjanin, by that date, Hambarine and Kozarac had been

16     cleansed and more than 7.000 people had been rounded up and taken to

17     Omarska or Trnopolje; and that's found at P3656.

18        A.   All right, correct.  But there is the Assembly of

19     Republika Srpska where much earlier than that Dr. Karadzic talked about

20     the implementation of the Geneva Conventions.  Perhaps as soon as war

21     operations began, that was something that was very often expressed in the

22     Assembly of Republika Srpska, and if someone learned that somebody was

23     doing something that shouldn't be done, we perhaps reminded them that it

24     should be distributed again so that people could see how they could

25     behave and how they mustn't behave.

Page 43695

 1        Q.   And you said to the Assembly, bragged to the Assembly, in fact,

 2     in the 48th Session in December of 1994, 48th Assembly Session, that:

 3     "We populated Kozarac the first day it was liberated."  That's at

 4     page 105 of the English and page 72 of the B/C/S.  So I put it to you,

 5     Mr. Brdjanin --

 6        A.   Please.

 7        Q.   -- that you knew about thousands of prisoners at --

 8        A.   [Overlapping speakers] -- no.  First of all, that we populated

 9     Kozarac as soon as it was liberated, that was -- in my trial we even

10     tried to find the journalist who published that.  We said that we visited

11     Kozarac rather than that we populated it.  How can we populate it?  Not

12     even in theory.  You couldn't populate any place at that time.  And I

13     discussed this.  If you want to know that I knew, I have to explain this

14     so that we clarify this once and for all.  It was even ascribed to me

15     that one Mejakic reported to me in Omarska and when Mejakic was arrested

16     and brought before ICTY, before ten witnesses including Muslims and

17     Croats, in The Hague he met me, and I asked him:  Why are you being

18     introduced to me now when you reported to me?  And he said:  What are you

19     talking about?  This is the first time I see you.  You can't believe

20     everything that the witnesses say.  I went to Prijedor because of the war

21     reserves with President Radic --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness please slow down.  He's way too

23     fast.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  You were too fast.  Could you repeat

25     from where you went to Prijedor.

Page 43696

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I first came to Banja Luka.  We

 2     were building a bridge on the border between Banja Luka and Celinac, so

 3     it was about financing it.  And they told me:  Come with us to one place.

 4     When we set off, I asked:  Where are we going?  When we were halfway

 5     there, they said:  We are going to Prijedor because of commodity

 6     reserves.  Radic and Vukic told me so.  When we came close to Omarska,

 7     the witnesses claimed here that I came to the collection centre, as it

 8     was called then, and that Mejakic reported something to me.  I was

 9     shocked.  When Mejakic was arrested and brought to the same floor in the

10     DU as myself, he greeted all people from Prijedor and he was introduced

11     to me.  I asked him:  Why are you being introduced to me when the

12     witnesses claimed that you reported to me?  He said:  This is the first

13     time I see you in my life.

14             What happened?  We had come in front of this collection centre

15     where it was reported that the Muslims had been sheltered there to be

16     protected from extremist groups of both Serbs and Muslims.  I'm not

17     saying that's correct, but I'm telling you what the report was.  When I

18     saw that people were inside, that there were many of them, I got really

19     angry and everyone who was there can testify to that, and I stayed in the

20     car.  Mr. Radic got out.  It's late Mr. Radic now, but truth be told, I

21     have to say that he criticised someone vehemently there, he was very

22     loud, and then we continued on to Prijedor.  There they told us that the

23     municipality had been attacked.  There are many documents that show that.

24     They told us how the fighting for Kozarac had progressed.  Then we went

25     to visit Kozarac.  There were still ruins and everything.  It would be

Page 43697

 1     crazy to say that we populated it.  With whom?  Only if I went to live

 2     there.  You can see there in the judgement that it's claimed that I was

 3     also speaking out against mixed marriages even though my own family is

 4     all in mixed marriages, 100 per cent.  But I cannot fight this.  Whoever

 5     was saying anything in Krajina, it was ascribed to me because I'm here.

 6     The principle is:  If you have him, then blame him for everything.  I'm

 7     not that kind of man.  I never condemned anyone.

 8             The fact is that I received information and informed the state

 9     leadership that there was a collection centre there.  The chief of police

10     arrived and said that they were sheltered there, and then I said:  If

11     that's so, then that's good, they should be protected.  We should have

12     done that in Banja Luka as well.  However, the journalist used my -- he

13     left out my conjunction and he said only "that's good."  And I had great

14     problems here before the Tribunal because I said it was good.  That's

15     what I think --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Again the witness is reminded to slow down for

17     the purpose of interpretation.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Brdjanin, I'm not sure whether we need all that,

19     but you speak too fast.  Mr. Brdjanin, do you hear me?  Please slow down.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript, please.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On page 67, lines 22 and 23, it

24     turns out that the witness said that he had been shocked because Mejakic

25     was arrested.  Instead it says that witness said he had been shocked at

Page 43698

 1     hearing some people saying it was Mejakic who reported to him.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 3             Yes, please continue, Mr. Tieger.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  I'm looking at the time, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Oh.

 6             Yes, we'll have a break for 45 minutes and resume at 1.20.

 7                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.33 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 1.22 p.m.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue, Mr. Tieger.

10             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

11        Q.   Mr. Brdjanin, in paragraph 33 of your statement, you refer to

12     your speeches in the Assembly on various matters which you assert vary in

13     tone.  You also say that your intention was not to create an atmosphere

14     which would instigate criminal behaviour or create an atmosphere of fear

15     and uncertainty among other ethnic groups.  Now, although this

16     Trial Chamber has already received some evidence about your comments

17     about non-Serbs, the Trial Chamber which heard your case heard extensive

18     evidence about that, and in four separate paragraphs dealt with that

19     issue.  First, in paragraph 325 of your judgement, in contrast to your

20     assertion in paragraph 3 about your intentions, the Trial Chamber found

21     that:

22             "By his public statements the Accused created fear and hatred

23     between Bosnian Serbs on the one hand and Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian

24     Croats on the other hand, inciting the ethnic groups against each other."

25             And it refers to various types of derogatory language used to

Page 43699

 1     refer to non-Serbs.

 2             Do you have that paragraph in front of you and can you confirm

 3     that, in fact, was the Trial Chamber's findings at that paragraph with

 4     respect to the impact of your public statements?

 5        A.   Yes, this is exactly what the Chamber concluded, although I

 6     honestly still think that that was not my intention; however, if the

 7     Chamber arrived at this conclusion, then it's correct [as interpreted].

 8        Q.   In paragraph 327, the Trial Chamber found that in "unambiguous

 9     terms and in a frightening manner," you called upon the non-Serb

10     population to leave, indicating repeatedly that only a small percentage

11     would be allowed to remain.  All right.  And that was the Trial Chamber's

12     findings reflected in paragraph 327; correct?

13        A.   [In English] Correct.  [Interpretation] Yes, it's correct, this

14     is the Chamber's finding.

15        Q.   And --

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In line 19 on page 70, it turns out

19     that the witness said:  If the Trial Chamber found that, then it's

20     correct; whereas the witness says it is accurate that the Chamber found

21     this but it's not correct.  And he repeated this a minute ago.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

23             MR. TIEGER:

24        Q.   The Trial Chamber also found in that same paragraph, 327, that

25     those statements were made at the same time that you publicly advocated

Page 43700

 1     the dismissals of non-Serbs from employment, that is, from early

 2     April 1992 to the end of 1992, when the process of dismissals was

 3     practically complete.  And again, that is a reflection of the

 4     Trial Chamber's findings with respect to your statements about non-Serbs;

 5     correct?

 6        A.   I have already explained, we asked for people to be reassigned

 7     and you can find it in documents.  Reassignment was carried out in 80 to

 8     90 per cent of cases, even before the Crisis Staff had been established,

 9     that is to say, prior to the 5th of May, 1992.

10        Q.   And that's the argument that was made at your trial and the

11     Trial Chamber's findings are as reflected in 327 as just recited; right?

12        A.   Yes, the argument was put forward but they found what they have

13     found.

14        Q.   And in paragraph 330, the Trial Chamber also addressed those

15     public statements again, stating:

16             "The Accused's public statements had a disastrous impact on

17     people of all ethnicities."

18             The Trial Chamber noted that it incited the Bosnian Serb

19     population to commit crimes against non-Serbs and made a substantial

20     contribution to creating a climate where people were prepared to tolerate

21     crimes, to commit crimes, and where otherwise well-meaning people felt

22     dissuaded from extending any kind of assistance to non-Serbs.

23             That's also an accurate reflection of what the Trial Chamber

24     found in your case about your public statements?  You can confirm that's

25     what the Trial Chamber found; right?

Page 43701

 1        A.   There is another conclusion of the Trial Chamber contained in the

 2     judgement, but I'll not talk about it.  All I want to say is that I said

 3     in my statement that at the time these statements could have been harsh

 4     and offensive.  I don't deny that.  But it's an outcome of the overall

 5     situation.  We were at war, insults were hurled from all sides, although

 6     I don't justify it.  But the only thing I should have emphasised was that

 7     these insults were addressed at the respective national leaderships

 8     rather than the Muslim or Croat peoples.  It might be a kind of clumsy

 9     statement; however, there is an opinion of the Trial Chamber to the

10     effect that my statements cannot be connected to any crime committed and

11     that a direct link can be established.

12             I repeat, those statements were made at a time when there was an

13     ubiquitous fear, not my own personal fear, resulting from the state of

14     war.  Therefore, I kindly ask them to be put in the proper context.  This

15     is nothing to be proud of, but they were as they were.  And I repeat,

16     they were targeting the leaderships.  I didn't say that at the time; I

17     should have made that clear.  Ordinary people are, most of them, normal

18     and there's only a handful of people who deserved to be called names that

19     might have been offensive at certain point in time.

20        Q.   Well, and speaking of fear, in paragraph 331 of your judgement

21     the Trial Chamber found that the non-Serb population of the Bosnian

22     Krajina understood your public statements as direct threats to leave the

23     areas under Bosnian Serb occupation and many of them did so in fear for

24     their lives.  That's another finding of your Trial Chamber about your

25     public statements; correct?

Page 43702

 1        A.   If I'm not mistaken, Mr. Ackerman on the occasion of this

 2     decision presented evidence that perhaps --

 3        Q.   Mr. Brdjanin --

 4        A.   -- only 5 to 6 per cent, and I'm not saying that these figures

 5     are correct --

 6        Q.   Do you confirm or dispute that that was the finding of your

 7     Trial Chamber about your public statements, as reflected in

 8     paragraph 331?

 9        A.   I do not dispute that this is a conclusion, but I am disputing

10     the fact that the moving out happened at that time, it happened much

11     later, and we offered proof in the form of documents.  But I'm not

12     disputing the conclusion reached by the Trial Chamber.

13        Q.   Now, I note that paragraph 33 focuses on your speeches in the

14     Assembly, but I'm not sure that your Assembly speeches alone do justice

15     to the full range of things that you were saying publicly about

16     non-Serbs.

17             MR. TIEGER:  So I'd like to turn to 65 ter 40035B, which is a

18     filmed rally in August of 1994 of tens of thousands of people.  And for

19     the benefit of the interpreters, the -- this is -- sorry, I'm trying to

20     get the transcript page, if I can.  It's page 1 of the English, page 1 of

21     the B/C/S.

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Anchor:  Mr. Radoslav Brdjanin,

24     people's deputy.

25             "Radoslav Brdjanin:  Brothers and sisters, dear people of

Page 43703

 1     Krajina, and all other patriots who have come to this meeting, we must

 2     not succumb to the greatest deceit that we are voting for war or peace;

 3     we are voting for the betrayal or rescue of Republika Srpska.  Those

 4     leftist forces which are offering us coexistence again must know that it

 5     is the obligation of Serbs over the next hundred years to wipe their feet

 6     from the foul non-Christians who have befouled this soil of ours.  It is

 7     also not true that we don't know where our borders lie.  Our borders

 8     extend from Benkovac to Trebinje.  Our borders extend from the Hungarian

 9     border all the way to Sokolac and I hope with the capital of Belgrade,

10     when we say that we are a national Serbian state.  We must tell the world

11     that on Serbian land, no one has the right to proclaim as victims those

12     who have been defeated as victors because this is the native land of

13     Tsar Dusan, Prince Lazar, Karadjordje, and the Serbian heroes of today.

14     I urge you to participate in the referendum in large numbers because that

15     referendum, let me warn you, offers to us that we cede 20 populated

16     places, of which 13 are cities.  It offers to us that we return to Alija

17     and Tudjman and live with them.  And I suggest that we put a barbed wire

18     and say that never again will our enemies spread throughout Krajina and

19     attack us for the fifth or fourth time in this century.  The worst thing

20     is that some individuals have now remembered that we should not have

21     waged war, as if we were the ones who imposed war.  Some have now

22     remembered that NATO is dangerous.  Do these gentlemen know that our

23     lives, the lives of those who are married and have children, are several

24     times cheaper than the lives of the young men lying in the graves.  On

25     their behalf, damned be the one who betrays Republika Srpska and the

Page 43704

 1     interests of the Serbian people."

 2             MR. TIEGER:

 3        Q.   Mr. Brdjanin, when you referred to "the foul non-Christians who

 4     have befouled this soil of ours," that's a reference to Muslims; right?

 5        A.   I already said that I never made reference to an entire people.

 6     However, before I give you an answer let me say that this speech was

 7     delivered after several funerals that I attended of young men in their

 8     20s who died, and I couldn't possibly realise -- and you see, there are

 9     200.000 men in Foca, all of them dressed in white as Arabs, and I was

10     referring more to those who felt themselves to be Arabs rather than

11     Yugoslavs.  And in this context I mentioned some emotions.  At that

12     moment when a person is enraged and angry can say all sort of things.  He

13     doesn't mean it necessarily.  It is better to argue than to fight.  The

14     rest of my speech, there is nothing contentious about that.  There is

15     only a very small percentage of Serbs who never wanted Belgrade to be the

16     capital.  What is wrong with -- about that?  Every British person wants

17     London to be their capital unless it is prohibited.  However --

18        Q.   Mr. Brdjanin -- Mr. Brdjanin --

19        A.   -- they wanted to break Yugoslavia up --

20        Q.   Excuse me, excuse me, sir.  I didn't ask you about that part of

21     your speech, and I think you answered the questioned I asked.

22             You also suggest in that speech that Serbs put up barbed wire so

23     that their enemies will never again spread throughout Krajina.  That

24     means to keep out those who are no longer in; right?

25        A.   No, no, no, no.  That was a figure of speech.  That means put a

Page 43705

 1     fence between us.  That's what I wanted to say.  That was better rather

 2     than to -- people being killed.  When you say "barbed wire," that's a

 3     figure of speech.  That means the strongest division between people, and

 4     that's what I meant, between us.

 5             Quite simply, the Serbian speeches are sometimes literally

 6     translated into English, but this is not correct.  I was talking about

 7     division and separation.  We didn't want to live again.  They didn't want

 8     to live with us.  Whether they were right or not, I was speaking about

 9     the facts.  I know what speeches were delivered.  I delivered many of

10     them, not only in the Assembly.  I know very well in which context,

11     though, were delivered and I said that some of them were harsh and

12     offensive.  I don't deny that and I explained to you the reasons why I

13     did that.

14        Q.   Here you say let's put up -- you call it what you want, a barbed

15     wire barrier, a fence, a barrier, to keep Muslims and Croats from

16     returning to the RS, as you put it, spreading through Krajina.  And on

17     other occasions you emphasised that there is no way that

18     Radoslav Brdjanin would participate in any process that would return

19     Muslims and Croats to Republika Srpska; right?

20        A.   No.  I said there was no way for us to advocate coexistence any

21     longer because at the time when the war broke out, in addition to the

22     fact that it is persistently omitted here what Mr. Karadzic said, that

23     Alija sacrificed peace for sovereignty, we said to the people that they

24     cannot go to a referendum for the breakup of Bosnia-Herzegovina from

25     Yugoslavia.  And had we advocated that, they -- we would have avoided

Page 43706

 1     war.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I must intervene.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  What he stated is a bit different.  What he said is

 4     that:  We put up a barbed wire and say that never again will our enemies

 5     spread throughout Krajina and attack us for fourth or fifth time.  That's

 6     what he said.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But he didn't say "non-Serbs."

 8             JUDGE KWON:  No, no.  That's not for you.

 9             MR. TIEGER:

10        Q.   And I asked you, Mr. Brdjanin, if on another occasion you

11     emphasised that the greatest wonder on earth would be the thought that

12     Radoslav Brdjanin could participate in a process of return of Croats and

13     Muslims.  You did say that, right, that's your position?

14        A.   At this time I know what I said and I heard it.  I don't dispute

15     that.  I don't think that I was --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please slow down.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Mr. Brdjanin, it's me, could you

18     repeat.  The interpreters couldn't hear you because you spoke too fast.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

20             The entire war, the SDA existed in the Assembly of Banja Luka,

21     including the HDZ.  I was talking about the people who took to arms in

22     order to disintegrate Yugoslavia.  I was not talking about honourable

23     people.  You might say that I did not emphasise that, but of course I did

24     not mean the people who contributed to this in no way whatsoever.

25             MR. TIEGER:  Let's look quickly at P1392, English page 50, B/C/S

Page 43707

 1     page 46.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Are you tendering the previous clip?

 3             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Mr. President.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll accept it.  It will be Exhibit P6515.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In its entirety or only the portion

 6     that we viewed?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  We have three pages.  I think we'll admit those

 8     pages in terms of transcript.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  This is a --

10             JUDGE KWON:  Only the Brdjanin part, yes.  It's maybe two pages.

11             MR. TIEGER:

12        Q.   This is a discussion at the 41st Assembly Session, Mr. Brdjanin.

13     And -- about, as you can see from the first line, in the context of a

14     discussion, the Law on Housing, in which there is a suggestion made

15     earlier that somehow this may result in the return of Croats and Muslims

16     and you say the following:

17             "You have a right to reject it, but I think that no one has a

18     right here to insult someone.  First of all, gentlemen, you cannot fool

19     me that you believe in the greatest wonder of the world, such as that

20     Brdjanin could participate in a process of return of Croats and Muslims.

21     I openly say from this floor that half of our towns would belong to

22     Muslims now if it were not for such fools as Brdjanin and similar

23     people."

24             And that was one of your public statements at the Assembly that

25     you asserted in your -- in paragraph 33 was not intended to cause fear or

Page 43708

 1     uncertainty; right?

 2        A.   You showed me this document.  The debate was about the

 3     Law on Housing, which entails that private property is sacrosanct.  Then

 4     somebody said that I was creating a new form of brotherhood and unity and

 5     that I want Croats and Muslims to return, and I said that they shouldn't

 6     resort to that.  We were only discussing the bill, and my secretary

 7     presented more than 20 decisions that I signed to the effect that Muslims

 8     and Croats should return to their flats because private property is

 9     inviable.  And this is demonstrated by means of the decisions that I

10     signed.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  This is a drastic

12     change of the meaning through interpretation.  Brdjanin said that we

13     would have had half of Muslim towns, whereas it was translated that half

14     of our cities would belong to Muslims.  Brdjanin said instead that we

15     could have occupied half of Muslim towns, whereas the translation says

16     something quite opposite and this is a drastic change of the meaning.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we continue?

18             MR. TIEGER:

19        Q.   Mr. Brdjanin, you were tasked by the government in January

20     1994 --

21             MR. TIEGER:  Let me call up D3588.

22        Q.   You were tasked by the government along with Velibor Ostojic to

23     prepare the programme for the accommodation of refugees in the republic;

24     correct?  We can look at the document if you want.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 43709

 1        Q.   Okay.  And as explained by Mr. Ostojic, that programme had

 2     essentially two purposes:  One, the accommodation of refugees; and two,

 3     the goal of ethnical, geographical continuity of Serb population, that

 4     is, building a new demographic politics?  It's not going to be reflected

 5     in that document.  I'm asking you to step outside the document for what

 6     the purpose of this programme was since you were a participant in it with

 7     Mr. Ostojic.

 8        A.   The objective of the programme was really to provide

 9     accommodation for refugees.  Republika Srpska was full of refugees from

10     Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina.  There was a looming disaster in terms of

11     health conditions and accommodation.  People were put up in some

12     collective centres.  Of course, all the decisions on housing were issued

13     on a temporary basis.

14        Q.   And I'm not suggesting that there was no interest in the

15     refugees.  As I indicated to you, I was asking you whether or not the

16     purpose was two-fold:  One, accommodate the refugees while achieving the

17     goal of ethnical geographical continuity of the Serb population and

18     thereby build a new demographic?

19        A.   This is 18th of January, 1994.  I have 20-odd decisions issued in

20     1993 in favour of Muslims in Banja Luka.  Therefore, the objective was

21     not to get rid of other populations, and you can see these decisions from

22     the Ministry of Construction dated 1993.

23        Q.   Well, perhaps I can turn your attention to a couple of things

24     said by your co-participant in the preparation of the programme,

25     Mr. Ostojic.  First, what he said at the 34th Assembly Session in August

Page 43710

 1     and late September -- actually, October 1st as well, 1993, and that's at

 2     the 13 -- P1379.  That's pages -- page 212 in the English and 230 in the

 3     Serbian.  Mr. Ostojic there, and this is at the bottom of the page in

 4     English, in the beginning of his comments, he refers to his service on

 5     the committee as a minister without portfolio and states:

 6             "We were aiming to achieve our goal, which was

 7     ethnical - geographical continuity of Serb population, while

 8     accommodating the refugees.  And actually we were building new

 9     demographic politics for the RS ..."

10             Now, that's an accurate reflection, is it not, of the dual

11     effort, the dual objective, that was being pursued by Mr. Ostojic at that

12     time and later by you and Mr. Ostojic in the programme for the

13     accommodation of refugees?

14        A.   Well, look.  I would like to be fair to the end.  As far as I

15     know, Mr. Ostojic has passed away.  I have to be fair.  But by the way, I

16     think that all MPs know that he and I never agreed -- I'm not only

17     talking about this but generally speaking.  Anyway, he said what he said,

18     and I'm telling you that as minister of construction what I implemented

19     was the complete opposite of what was stated here.

20        Q.   Just one more comment by Mr. Ostojic on this subject, this time

21     after the government had tasked the two of you with preparing the

22     document.  And this is found at P1388, page 168 of the English, 135 in

23     the Serbian.  This is the 39th Session of the Assembly held on the

24     24th and the 25th of March, 1994, which the record reflects you attended,

25     Mr. Brdjanin.

Page 43711

 1        A.   All right.

 2        Q.   And now we have it on screen.  In English if we look toward the

 3     latter part of the middle, just above the page demarcation of 33 there,

 4     Mr. Ostojic says:

 5             "But the first part of the work has been done.  That document is

 6     called the Project on Demographic Policy of Republika Srpska was made.

 7     We have to deal with this problem first, in order to establish the

 8     geographic continuity of the Serbian population in RS area."

 9             And if we turn the page in Serbian, he goes on to note the four

10     particularly sensitive areas that should be worked on:  Herzegovina,

11     Birac, Posavina in two directions, and the Sana/Una area.

12             And again, after the joint effort by you and Mr. Ostojic on the

13     programme, we see his continuing confirmation of its dual purpose, which

14     includes the geographic continuity of the Serbian population and that

15     aspect of the demographic policy; right?

16        A.   What Ostojic was pointing out was verbatim what I'm going to say

17     now.  There were many Serbs in Sarajevo, about 40.000 of them, in Zenica

18     and in bigger cities.  People wanted to move to cities in

19     Republika Srpska, primarily Banja Luka, and that was impossible.  Then

20     this commission and Ostojic insisted they move into smaller towns that

21     were predominantly Serb.  And now, that is no problem whatsoever except

22     for the fact that, say, the citizens of Sarajevo did not want to go, say,

23     to Bratunac or other very small towns like that, but they were told that

24     it was virtually impossible to do it in any other way.  And this was the

25     demographic situation that was there in the newly created

Page 43712

 1     Republika Srpska, which, after all, was recognised by the Dayton

 2     Agreement.

 3        Q.   The demographic situation where large portions of the territory

 4     were basically vacant because the previous inhabitants, the Muslims and

 5     Serbs [sic], were no longer there; correct?

 6        A.   In Krajina, where I lived, that was not the case.  It was

 7     predominantly populated by Serbs, but I think that in areas like the

 8     eastern part of Republika Srpska the population was predominantly Serb.

 9     However, you also have cases that were quite different.  The Serbs were

10     the second-most numerous population and the population would leave all

11     together and then they'd have no other place to go but Republika Srpska,

12     so that Republika Srpska should not remain empty and have the entire

13     population move into two or three big towns or cities, that was

14     impossible.  And that's why this relocation took place; that is to say,

15     to show that it was possible to live and work there.

16             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, this is right on the time allocation.

17     I have one matter I would like to address that was raised earlier.  I

18     actually sent out for a document connected with it.  It's a very discrete

19     matter raised by the witness in connection with population figures.  I

20     think I can raise it pretty briefly.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Mr. Tieger.

22             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.

23        Q.   Mr. Brdjanin, at page 62 and the top of 63 of today's transcript,

24     when you were looking at P1478, that is, the record of the 2 June 1992

25     meeting reflected in the -- General Mladic's journal, you looked at an

Page 43713

 1     entry that referred to the problem of the Krajina, 14.500 Muslims.

 2     That's an entry in the journal about what you were saying that preceded

 3     your request for a position at the highest level about prisoners and

 4     refugees.  You said that the -- quote:

 5             "This 14.500 has to do with the exact number of Muslims according

 6     to the census in 1991 in Banja Luka."

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Well, the -- if I could have 65 ter 00242, please,

 8     B/C/S page 16.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can answer before the document is

10     there.

11             MR. TIEGER:

12        Q.   Yeah.  If --

13        A.   There's a small mistake here.  I meant to say 14.5 per cent,

14     that's indeed what I meant to say, but it wasn't even that.  The greatest

15     surprise of all for us was that in the census, there were more Croats in

16     Banja Luka, 14.5 per cent in Banja Luka, and Muslims 14 per cent.  I

17     think the population was 196.000 all together, perhaps a bit less, and

18     then if you look at that percentage then that is more than 14.500.  I

19     don't know what that pertains to, but what I really meant to say was

20     14.5 per cent.  And after all, in Krajina, in the entire autonomous

21     region there were a lot more Muslims; there's no denying that.

22        Q.   So your position is that when you said -- when it's recorded as

23     "Krajina," you meant -- let me just make sure I have this right, you

24     meant Banja Luka, and when it says "14.500," you meant 14.5 per cent?

25        A.   I know that that is what we were saying all along and I know that

Page 43714

 1     that's what I thought, 14.5 per cent, because 14.500 doesn't fit into

 2     anything.  So this is probably mis-recorded or perhaps at that moment I

 3     misspoke.

 4        Q.   Thank you, sir.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  I have nothing further.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 7             Mr. Karadzic, do you have re-examination?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, briefly, Excellency.  But

 9     could we also return this document?

10             JUDGE KWON:  What document?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The one that was on the screen, the

12     census.  Could this be zoomed in?  Could it be blown up as much as

13     possible?  Thank you.

14                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Could you please take a look at this,

16     Mr. Brdjanin.  The figures are for 1971, 1981, and 1991.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   How has this percentage moved for Muslims, Croats --

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We could not find the

20     numbers referred to.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 43715

 1        Q.   Were there demographic movements even without the war, before the

 2     war, that is?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  We haven't heard the -- your

 4     question, Mr. Karadzic, because of the overlapping.  To which question

 5     did witness say "that's correct"?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that he answered the

 7     question about these figures for -- or rather, the census for 1971, 1981,

 8     and 1991.  And that Croats were 21 per cent, 16 per cent, and 14

 9     per cent, whereas the Muslims were 15.3, 11.8, 14.6.

10        A.   Correct.

11        Q.   Were there any demographic movements in absolute and relative

12     terms before the war as well?

13        A.   From 1945 onwards, the Croats who could always --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- wanted to move to the centre

16     called Zagreb and the Muslims who could tried to move to the centre

17     called Sarajevo.

18             JUDGE KWON:  How is this relevant or how does this arise from the

19     cross-examination?

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it arises because it was

21     suggested that there was a war going on and that we took advantage of the

22     war in order to expel Croats and Muslims; however, these movements were

23     there all along.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Please move on to another topic.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 43716

 1             You can remove the document now.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   You were asked about that term, non-Christians.  What about

 4     communists who were Serbs, were they Christians or non-Christians?

 5        A.   I didn't want to go back to that question put by the Prosecutor

 6     but --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 8             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  Even I on cross-examination asked a less leading

10     question than that.  This is Dr. Karadzic's continuing effort to testify.

11             JUDGE KWON:  But -- was the question -- what was the question?

12     Non-Christians?

13             MR. TIEGER:  If he wants to know -- I'm sorry.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE KWON:  Let's not spend time on this.

16             What is your question, Mr. Karadzic?  Move on to your question.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             Let me just say that translation is a problem once again.  It has

19     to do with being baptised or not baptised.  It's not about somebody being

20     a Christian or not being a Christian.  It's the translations that are so

21     bad --

22             JUDGE KWON:  Let's leave that topic and come to your real

23     question.  What is your question?

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Mr. Brdjanin, you were asked about the meeting on the

Page 43717

 1     2nd of June, the one that you couldn't remember.  Was this a big meeting

 2     or was this a smaller meeting, a short meeting?

 3        A.   Well, I probably would remember it if it were a big meeting and

 4     of major importance.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

 7     65 ter 13589.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   This is from the diary -- or rather, this is from the news.

10     Please tell us what they are reporting.  You don't have to read it out

11     loud.  It says "in a short working visit."  Is that correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted?

15             MR. TIEGER:  No objection.

16             JUDGE KWON:  We'll receive it.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D4056, Your Honours.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] P1478, please, and then the pages

19     that we looked at, 53 first and then further on.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Mr. Brdjanin, you put some questions to me over there --

22        A.   I don't have that document here yet.

23        Q.   We'll have it -- you do remember the question?  Did I take you

24     seriously then and what followed after that?  Did I take some action, do

25     you remember?

Page 43718

 1        A.   No, no.  I don't know.  I don't remember.

 2        Q.   Aha.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 53 then, the next page.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   This last bullet point, what is it that you say there, the last

 6     one?

 7        A.   Just a moment, please.  Where is that now?

 8        Q.   The last three lines.

 9        A.   When you said that we are in favour of everything being under the

10     command of the army and for the dissolution of all paramilitaries.  If

11     there is anything I talked about, it is this, that everything should be

12     under the regular military and that the paramilitaries could only harm

13     us, harm our movement.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 55 now, please.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Here --

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I please have page 55 now.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Your last two sentences.

21        A.   Just a moment.  You mean the bit up here?

22        Q.   Yes.  Before Zecevic.

23        A.   About prisoners and refugees.  A position, please, at the highest

24     level.

25        Q.   Thank you.  This was on the 2nd of June.  Between the 12th of May

Page 43719

 1     and the 2nd of June did I visit Banja Luka?

 2        A.   I'm sorry, I cannot say.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I have the next page now.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Just the first sentence, please, Mr. Kupresanin's first sentence,

 7     could you read it out loud.

 8        A.   "Since the session our situation has got worse."

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Which session does he mean?

10        A.   Well, he means some previous one, but I cannot decipher now what

11     he has in mind.  I don't know.  What's the date?  Just tell me the date

12     and I'll tell you.

13        Q.   The 2nd of June.

14        A.   I don't think he meant the session of the Assembly on the 12th.

15     That was considerably before that, the 12th of May, but anyway.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] D426, could that be shown to the

18     witness.  And this page, could it be added, unless all of it has been

19     admitted already?

20             JUDGE KWON:  We have it all, Mr. Karadzic.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             D426.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   This is the 8th of June, 1992.  It's an appeal by

25     Radovan Karadzic.  And now please take a look at the numbers here.  We

Page 43720

 1     are addressing the local authorities to ensure protection and care for

 2     all wounded and ill persons no matter what side they belonged to.  Then

 3     also to treat all prisoners humanely.

 4             "3.  To spare civilian population of all attacks.

 5             "4.  To provide protection and all possible aid to refugees.

 6             "5.  To respect the Red Cross sign ..."

 7             What I did four days later, is that related to the questions that

 8     you put on the 2nd of June?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   At that meeting, did you ask for this or did you ask for the

11     opposite?

12        A.   No, this is what I asked for so that everybody would know what

13     the official positions of the state were, fitting into all sorts of world

14     conventions.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] D428, could that please be shown to

17     the witness now.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   This is a day later, the 9th of June, a session of the

20     Presidency.  Please look at item 11.

21        A.   I see it.

22        Q.   Is this in any connection with what you asked for?

23        A.   Yes, absolutely.

24        Q.   And can you look at item 1, please.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 43721

 1        Q.   Is that also in some connection with what you asked for?

 2        A.   If you allow me to answer with at least two sentences, we

 3     precisely asked that everyone should receive instructions on how to act

 4     because we did not have power to tell anyone anything.  This is what we

 5     requested and this was sent to all military units and all civilian

 6     authorities.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  It was suggested to you that the municipalities,

 8     except for Prijedor, listened to you, obeyed you, and carried out what

 9     you said except for Prijedor, the Chamber --

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D9882, could that be shown to the

11     witness, please.

12             MR. TIEGER:  I have to say that's a mis-characterisation of the

13     evidence that was put to this witness or the suggestions that were made

14     on cross-examination.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I remember well, Mr. Tieger

16     suggested that Prijedor, too, obeyed and carried out the decisions of the

17     Crisis Staff.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Can you please look at the conclusion here which reads:

20             "The Crisis Staff of the Prijedor Municipality does not accept

21     and deems invalid all decisions of the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous

22     Region of Krajina adopted before the 22nd of June, 1992."

23             And item 3:

24             "Inform the Crisis Staff of ... this conclusion."

25             How does this fit into what you knew and how does it fit into the

Page 43722

 1     claims made by the Prosecution?

 2        A.   I listed here four members who answered all these questions, and

 3     if I could see the minutes, it would be a great pleasure for me to

 4     examine this together with the Trial Chamber.  These were articles of the

 5     judgement 163, 204, 212, and 216.  All these issues are discussed, the

 6     power and lack of power of the Crisis Staff, what was possible, and what

 7     was not possible.  And as for this decision made by Prijedor, it is quite

 8     clear to me, it's just not clear to me why it came from Prijedor because

 9     practically it was the conclusion of the Sana/Una region, in which the

10     deputies convened the Assembly.  I see here that the name which is

11     mentioned is Dr. Milan Kovacevic, I think.  And I believe that at the

12     session held in the Sana/Una region, the deputies who wanted to express a

13     lack of trust in the Crisis Staff of the autonomous region had the main

14     say.  But these articles from the trial judgement are very important for

15     me.  I kept looking at the appeals judgement and now I have read these;

16     they talk about everything.

17        Q.   Thank you.  On what did it depend what the municipal

18     Crisis Staffs would implement and what they wouldn't?

19        A.   I don't know.  I -- there is no reason for me after my judgement

20     and 14 and a half years in prison to try to trick anyone, but it really

21     depended on personal relations.  If I was on good terms with the

22     president of the municipality like in Celinac, they would say we need to

23     introduce duty, then we would do it.  If I wasn't on good terms with

24     somebody, they would say:  No, no, implementing such decisions is out of

25     the question.  It was really on such basis, which has not been accepted

Page 43723

 1     here.  But now, after so many years, I really have no reason here to say

 2     something that is not true.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, next Defence exhibit.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D4057, Your Honours.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   The Prosecutor suggested to you that you were in power in the

10     AR Krajina and that the authorities were part of a harmonious whole from

11     the republican to the municipal level.  Did something like that exist on

12     the 2nd of June, 1992, when we met at this short meeting?  Was there such

13     a harmony between all levels of the authorities?

14        A.   Well, all right --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

16             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

17             MR. TIEGER:  Well, I mean, I don't know that setting up a straw

18     issue is really the best way of assisting this Chamber.  I don't think

19     the word "harmony" was used.  If the accused wants to accurately

20     characterise the positions put to this witness, that's fine; but to

21     introduce this particular kind of standard is -- and then ask the witness

22     to respond as if it's somehow meaningful to the cross-examination I think

23     is misleading.

24             JUDGE KWON:  What is your question, Mr. Karadzic?  Come to your

25     real question, not in a leading way.

Page 43724

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I'm waiting for the

 2     interpretation to end.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. Brdjanin, was there unity, as it has been suggested, and

 5     harmony in executing power from top to bottom?  I'm not sure what were

 6     the exact words in which that was suggested, but it was suggested that

 7     you were a part of an organism of power.

 8        A.   To speak frankly, we cannot call it a harmony.  We in Krajina

 9     really believed that we were damaged.  With regard to the central

10     authorities that we were more threatened, that our natural resources were

11     completely destroyed, and very often we had heated discussions, but it

12     was all based on the economy as the article 163 of the trial judgement

13     says.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] P3927, can this document please be

16     shown to the witness briefly.  This is a regular combat report for the

17     2nd of June, 1992.  And if we could please show page 3 of this document

18     in Serbian.  It could be page 2 in English.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Here we have combat morale.  Please look at this sentence:

21             "Certain divisions in the SDS leadership are transferring

22     themselves to the troops in our units.  This is particularly noticeable

23     in the relations between AR Krajina and SR BH, and amongst the

24     municipalities in Bosanska Dubica," and so forth.

25             How does this fit, this assessment of the army, with your

Page 43725

 1     experience about this alleged unity?

 2        A.   Well, in the beginning - and I stand by that, that we had an

 3     army - in the beginning we had a certain degree of mistrust.  Because the

 4     idea to preserve a concept which followed from the communist Yugoslavia

 5     was primary.  And we claimed that that could not survive.  And so as not

 6     to expand that, some who testified here confirmed that, even if they were

 7     Prosecution witnesses.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell the Chamber, when talking about

 9     replacements of directors in public enterprises, which party was

10     responsible for the functioning of public enterprises?

11        A.   Everywhere in the world the party that wins the elections is

12     responsible, and we here talked about the SDS which was the party that

13     won the elections in that part of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Did we replace the communist cadres from the

15     companies that were of public importance and which we were competent for?

16        A.   I think that even the judgement says that the first cadres who

17     were removed from positions in Banja Luka were the Serbian personnel who

18     had been members of the communist party.  They were the first ones who

19     were removed from their posts.  Of course, later on there were Muslims

20     and Croats too, but I'm talking who were the ones who were removed among

21     the first.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Pause please.

23             Yes, continue.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Could you tell us -- I have come across such documents of yours

Page 43726

 1     but I don't have them at the moment.  Could you tell us, therefore,

 2     whether the directors of these public enterprises were loyal to

 3     Yugoslavia immediately before the outbreak of our war and also during the

 4     conflicts in Slovenia and Croatia.  Do you -- are you aware of some

 5     examples of disloyalty, not just leaking of information but in the way

 6     people acted?

 7        A.   Well, it's a broad notion but there was disloyalty on part of the

 8     Muslim, Croat, and even Serbian personnel in the sense that they simply

 9     did not understand at that point in which times we were living and that

10     practically war had broken out in these areas.

11        Q.   Thank you.  It was suggested to you that the policy of

12     Republika Srpska was to change the demographic image and that continuous

13     policy in our republic was pursued with that goal in mind and that you

14     and Mr. Ostojic were appointed in order to implement such a policy, a

15     housing policy, yes, that housing policy was aimed at achieving that sort

16     of continuity.  Was the policy of Republika Srpska and my own policy such

17     that abandoned property and spaces which had been left by those who were

18     not Serbian should be allocated to Serbs in order to change the

19     democratic picture?

20        A.   Accommodating refugees in vacant property was always temporary

21     and the decisions were always phrased so.  Why did the state or municipal

22     authorities take that on themselves?  That was the only way to protect

23     the property, because before that, people entered of their own free will

24     into abandoned houses and apartments.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 43727

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please show the witness

 2     P1379.  This is a session of the People's Assembly held in August and

 3     September 1993.  In Serbian we need page 170 and 171, and in English 162

 4     and 163.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   I will read it out to you so we don't have to look for it.

 7     Karadzic, and then the third sentence under --

 8        A.   Yes, yes, I can see it.

 9        Q.   "It seems to me in our Republic the housing has to be a temporary

10     problem, for we have to accept international law and documents, as well

11     as international standards.  We have to respect the property of those who

12     possess this property."

13             Were you aware of this view and did anyone oppose this position

14     of the president expressed in the parliament?

15        A.   I believe that I've already said several times that I was aware

16     of these views.  I cannot remember, but probably in discussion someone

17     expressed opposite views but I think that they agreed about this

18     position.  At least it was the majority and probably it was everyone.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And the last paragraph here:

20             As for our obligation towards the property of ours, others also

21     have obligations with regard to our property.  I believe that at the

22     level of the state and the republics if this plan is implemented, if the

23     Muslims soon sign it, that we will have one list, and the republics that

24     have to compensate each other, if there are people who left there and

25     left their property here, that would have to be compensated to the other

Page 43728

 1     republic, and so on and so forth.

 2             Do you remember every option, return or compensation, was part of

 3     our policy with regard to stripping people of their rights?  Was there

 4     any change of the status of property in a violent way or one that was not

 5     agreed on?

 6        A.   I think that there is still a plan --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness please slow down.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Brdjanin, with that speed it's impossible to

 9     catch up with your answer.  Could you repeat it again and this time very

10     slowly.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.  All right.

12             This policy fits precisely also in the programme drawn up by the

13     Ministry of Construction that no one's privately owned property can be

14     alienated or taken away; it has to be respected.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If we are still on page 100 -- no,

18     something is wrong.  In Serbian we need page 170, and then towards the

19     bottom it says:

20             "I will advocate that whatever we should compensate to the

21     Muslims who have left and cannot return and who knows whether after ten

22     years anyone will dare to return anywhere.  I know that the Serbs cannot

23     and do not dare and do not want to return to Zenica.  The debt should be

24     turned into a public debt and we as society and the state will pay that

25     to the Muslim state so that it can pay indemnity to its citizens."

Page 43729

 1             And can we please move to the next page in Serbian.

 2             "In the meantime, in our republic we should have refugee's card

 3     of each family.  I think that we have such a regulation, and according to

 4     this, we will pay approximate indemnity to our citizens for what they

 5     have left there, where it will belong to the republics of the Muslims and

 6     the Croats."

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Were you aware of this?

 9        A.   It was my conviction that this was correct and decent and only

10     possible at that moment.

11        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Brdjanin.  Let me just say if I only said

12     "minister," it wouldn't be enough because you were something more than

13     that to the people in Krajina.  Thank you.

14        A.   Thank you to everyone.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Well, that concludes your evidence, Mr. Brdjanin.

16     Thank you for your testimony.  Now you are free to go.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

18             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber's thanks also goes to Mr. Lukic.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Does this mean that I may go home?

20     You said that we were free.

21             JUDGE KWON:  We have 20 minutes for today, but -- is

22     Mr. Krajisnik waiting?

23             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President.  He's arriving this evening.

24             JUDGE KWON:  All right.

25             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, if I could just take a minute to

Page 43730

 1     put something on the record at the request of the Registrar and that is

 2     that for Exhibit D1721, which the Trial Chamber has ordered in a written

 3     order of the 8th of November be amended by having the pages put in

 4     correct order, we've now completed that.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  And I forgot the exact title of the filing, but your

 6     request for the counsel of Mr. Mejakic to be present, it is hereby

 7     granted.

 8             Then unless there's anything further to be raised, the hearing --

 9     yes, Mr. Tieger.  The hearing is adjourned.

10                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.41 p.m.,

11                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 19th day of

12                           November, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.