1 Monday, 18 November 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone.
7 Could the witness make the solemn declaration.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
9 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
10 WITNESS: RADOSLAV BRDJANIN
11 [Witness answered through interpreter]
12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Brdjanin. Please be seated and make
13 yourself comfortable.
14 Could the counsel assisting Mr. Brdjanin introduce himself for
15 the record.
16 MR. LUKIC: Good day, Your Honour. Good day to everyone. My
17 name is Novak Lukic, I am attorney-at-law from Belgrade and in today's
18 proceedings I am going to represent Mr. Brdjanin and his rights.
19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Good morning to you, Mr. Lukic.
20 Mr. Brdjanin, although I know -- I take it that you are well
21 aware of this, I must draw your attention to a certain rule of evidence
22 that we have here at the Tribunal before you commence your evidence, that
23 is, Rule 90(E). Under this rule, you may object to answering any
24 questions from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecutor, or even from the Judges, if
25 you believe that your answer might incriminate you in a criminal offence.
1 In this context, "incriminate" means saying something that might amount
2 to an admission of guilt for a criminal offence or saying something that
3 might provide evidence that you might have committed a criminal offence.
4 However, should you think that an answer might incriminate you and, as a
5 consequence, you refuse to answer the question, I must let you know that
6 the Tribunal has the power to compel you to answer the question. But in
7 that situation, the Tribunal would ensure that your testimony compelled
8 under such circumstances would not be used in any case that might be laid
9 against you for any offence, save and except the offence of giving false
11 Do you understand that, sir?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
14 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Excellencies.
16 Good morning to everyone.
17 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
18 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Brdjanin.
19 A. Good morning.
20 Q. Hopefully you are close enough to the mike, only I would like to
21 ask you for us to make pauses between our sentences so that everything
22 can be properly interpreted and recorded in the transcript.
23 Did you give a statement to my Defence team?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have 1D9119 in
2 e-court so that it can be shown to the witness.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Please tell me if you see your statement on the screen before
6 A. I can see it.
7 Q. The important thing is that the same statement is on the screen,
8 and with the Chamber's leave you will be able to use your statement
9 whenever needed. Did you sign and did you read your statement?
10 A. Yes, I did.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can, please, the witness be shown
13 the last page so that he can identify his signature.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Is this your signature?
16 A. Yes, it is.
17 Q. Thank you. Does this statement accurately reflect what you told
18 my Defence team?
19 A. In brief, everything that I know of and all the opinions that I
20 have are contained in my statement.
21 Q. Thank you. If I were to put the same questions to you today in
22 this courtroom, would your answers essentially be the same as the ones in
23 the statement?
24 A. Essentially, yes.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this
2 statement pursuant to Rule 92 ter.
3 JUDGE KWON: Do you have any objection to the admission of the
4 statement, Mr. Tieger?
5 MR. TIEGER: No, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE KWON: We'll admit it.
7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D4034, Your Honours.
8 JUDGE KWON: Shall we deal with the associated exhibits?
9 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. We're tendering 25 associated
10 exhibits, four of them which appeared on our list are not, in fact, being
11 tendered because three are already admitted and one was in -- enumerated
12 in error in the list.
13 JUDGE KWON: All right. And could you identify those numbers
14 that you are not tendering.
15 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. 65 ter number 05831 has been
16 admitted as D4015. 65 ter number 05587 has been admitted as
17 Exhibit D422. 65 ter number 1D9862 has been admitted as D4026. And
18 we're not tendering 1D5589, which appeared in error. Thank you.
19 JUDGE KWON: Except for those, 65 ter 17918 referred to in
20 paragraph 25, you are tendering only the page referred to out of the
21 51-page document, page 12?
22 MR. ROBINSON: If I could have a minute for Mr. Sladojevic to
23 check that and make sure.
24 JUDGE KWON: And while we are waiting for that, 65 ter 1D5589,
25 did you say that you are not tendering that?
1 MR. ROBINSON: That's correct.
2 JUDGE KWON: Document 1D9857 referred to in para 9, and 1D9862
3 referred to in para 19, those two documents does not form, in the view of
4 the Chamber, an inseparable and indispensable part of the document -- the
5 statement, in the sense that it was not sufficiently commented upon or
6 contextualised by the witness. So if the Defence is minded to tender
7 those two documents, it should lead live.
8 And finally, with respect to document 1D55187 referred to in
9 paragraph 23(G), the Chamber is not sure about its provenance so the --
10 if the Defence is minded to tender that, it is also requested or
11 instructed that the -- Mr. Karadzic should lead live this document.
12 And with the caveat referred to 1798 -- I'm sorry, 17918, we'll
13 admit only the page referred to, i.e., page 12 of the document.
14 Otherwise, I wonder whether there's any objection from Mr. Tieger with
15 respect to associated exhibits?
16 MR. TIEGER: [Microphone not activated]
17 JUDGE KWON: Microphone.
18 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President. Much of what we had
19 identified has been covered in the discussion. We also noted the
20 document in paragraph 12, 8379; the document in paragraph 13; and the
21 document in paragraph 18 as appearing to us -- and 18 was 4820, as being
22 possibly in -- not substantially substantiated and --
23 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, 8379, is it something that was
25 MR. TIEGER: That's --
1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson?
2 MR. ROBINSON: No.
3 JUDGE KWON: No.
4 MR. TIEGER: That's why I was taking my time in rising. I was
5 comparing the list, but I didn't see that and Mr. Robinson confirms that.
6 In any event, those were our observations, Mr. President. I know the
7 Trial Chamber very actively monitors this.
8 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber is fine with those two exhibits, we'll
9 admit them.
10 Except for those, all the other associated exhibits will be
11 admitted into evidence and assigned -- be assigned the exhibit number in
12 due course by the Registry.
13 MR. TIEGER: Mr. President, just one minor housekeeping matter, I
14 think you mentioned with respect to 17918, which appears at paragraph 25,
15 that it would be page 12 that was referenced and I -- or paragraph 12 in
16 the statement is paragraph 11 -- sorry. The difference is between pages,
17 not paragraphs, between page 11 and page 12, just for clarification.
18 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
19 Yes, please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'm now going to read a
21 brief summary of Mr. Brdjanin's statement in English.
22 [In English] Radoslav Brdjanin became a member of the SDS in
23 1990. Between May the 5th of 1992 and July the 17th, 1992, he was the
24 President of the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina (ARK)
25 and later he became the minister for urban planning and construction in
1 the Republika Srpska. He was also elected deputy in the Assembly of the
2 Republika Srpska and Republika Srpska deputy prime minister for the
3 economy. On 8th of March, 1995, he was relieved from all his duties in
4 the government and party.
5 The reason why the Community of Municipalities of Banja Luka
6 (ZOBL), the Community of Municipalities of Bosnian Krajina (ZOBK) and the
7 ARK were established was to gain greater economic independence from the
8 authorities in Sarajevo. The ARK statute was written for all three
9 nations and all municipalities in Krajina were invited to join the region
10 of Krajina. In 1990 and 1991, more than other parts of BH, Krajina felt
11 the tensions and proximity of the fighting in Croatia, where military
12 facilities of the JNA came under attack and Serbian people were
13 discriminated against. Moreover, the leadership of the SDA began
14 promoting the independence of BH and their deputies publicly started
15 speaking against Yugoslavia and the JNA. As a result, the original
16 economic project to create a region of Krajina acquired a political
17 dimension. There were men in the region of Krajina who were for the
18 unification of the two Krajinas and proclamation of the Republic of
19 Krajina, but the SDS was against this.
20 In April 1992, Prime Minister Djeric sent instructions for the
21 establishment of Crisis Staffs in municipalities, but not in the region.
22 The ARK Crisis Staff was established as the co-ordinating body at the
23 regional level and Mr. Brdjanin was nominated as its president. The ARK
24 Crisis Staff was not supported by the central authorities in Pale.
25 Krajina was cut off from the rest of the Serbian Republic of BH
1 until 28th of June, 1992, when a corridor was opened. However, the
2 consequences of being cut off continued because two or three months were
3 necessary for the supply to Krajina to start meeting the minimum
4 requirements. The break between Banja Luka and Pale was not complete but
5 communication was rendered extremely difficult. Mr. Brdjanin did not
6 receive any instruction from Pale or Dr. Karadzic about his work or the
7 work of the ARK Crisis Staff while it existed.
8 The ARK Assembly and Executive Committee existed at the same time
9 as the ARK Crisis Staff. The ARK Crisis Staff did not have premises to
10 hold its meetings, it did not employ anyone, and, in other words, was
11 superfluous. As for the relations between the ARK Crisis Staff and the
12 municipalities, there was no subordination and the municipalities
13 independently decided whether they would or would not implement the
14 decisions of the ARK Crisis Staff. Nothing could be done to punish
15 municipal organs if they failed to implement decisions of the ARK
16 Crisis Staff.
17 From the very beginning, the ARK Crisis Staff fought against all
18 paramilitary formations, regardless of the ethnic composition, and all
19 citizens who had unauthorised weapons had to return them and place
20 themselves under the command of the legal armed forces of the
21 Territorial Defence. The ARK Crisis Staff tried to include Muslim,
22 Croats, and members of the other nations in the community; however,
23 sensitive information was being leaked. The Serbian soldiers were
24 frustrated because they witnessed deaths and wounding of their loved ones
25 by members of the same nation who held top positions in the Serbian state
1 and who might have, at the same time, been leaking information to the
2 enemy. As a result, the ARK Crisis Staff decided on 22nd of June, 1992,
3 to appoint Serbs who unconditionally accepted the newly formed state
4 structures, who respected the state institutions, laws, and regulations,
5 to sensitive top positions from where information could be leaked. The
6 guiding principle was that top positions could not be held by persons who
7 rejected the state organs of the Serbian Republic of BH.
8 President Karadzic used his authority granted by the constitution
9 to appoint Muslims and Croats as judges and prosecutors alongside with
10 Serbs. However, when the Republika Srpska Assembly convened on
11 12th of August, 1992, the deputies agreed not to re-elect Muslims and
12 Croatians as a temporary measure during war time, despite Dr. Karadzic's
13 pressure for his decisions to be ratified.
14 The position of the ARK Crisis Staff about Muslims and Croats
15 leaving the ARK never included forcible transfer or deportation.
16 Individuals who decided to leave the ARK were required to have a
17 certificate of departure which listed their belongings, as a proof that a
18 person was voluntarily leaving and in order to allow the ARK Crisis Staff
19 in order to protect the rights of these persons with regard to their
20 property. Although against any form of forcible relocation of the
21 people, the ARK Crisis Staff believed in enabling the reciprocal exchange
22 of those civilians who expressed their wish to leave.
23 On 10th of June, 1992, the ARK Crisis Staff adopted a decision
24 that only women, children, and the elderly could leave the ARK
25 voluntarily and that their departure should be effected in co-operation
1 with the humanitarian societies. If able-bodied non-Serbs voluntarily
2 decided to leave, the police first wanted to check whether they had been
3 involved in combat operations against the Serbian armed forces or
4 committed a crime. On 12th of June, 1992, the ARK Crisis Staff adopted a
5 decision to establish an agency which would regulate the needs of the
6 civilians who wanted to leave and exchange of their houses with Serbs.
7 The work of the agency focused on providing assistance for the departure
8 of all three ethnic communities.
9 In June 1992, there were several thousand refugees in Banja Luka
10 of Serbian ethnicity who entered abandoned flats and houses without
11 authorisation. In order to stop this, the ARK Crisis Staff adopted a
12 decision for all abandoned properties, regardless of who owned it, to be
13 declared state property until the return of the original owner. In
14 addition, Mr. Brdjanin urged the confiscation of property of the
15 deserters from the VRS and all war profiteers. The opinion of
16 President Karadzic on housing was that according to international law and
17 standards, the housing policy in times of war should be temporary, the
18 property of everyone should be respected, and he favoured compensation to
19 all Muslims who left RS and could not return. President Karadzic has
20 always promoted respect for the Geneva Conventions and insisted on humane
21 treatment of non-Serbian civilians and prisoners of war. In Assembly
22 sessions, he always underlined the importance of respecting the
23 international law of war.
24 [Interpretation] This was the brief summary. There is only one
25 document that I would first like to ask Mr. Brdjanin about.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. In paragraph 23(g) of your statement, page 10 in Serbian you
3 explain the reasons and the nature of the agency for relocation that had
4 been established. Did you have the same opinion at the time as regards
5 the reasons underlying this decision and the persons that it pertained
7 A. I have page 9, sub-item (g).
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. Yes, what I said here.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Can you tell us who Dragan Stegic is?
14 A. Just a moment, please. 5587 --
15 Q. No, we are still waiting for it to show up. 1D55817.
16 JUDGE KWON: Is it not 55187?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise, it is 55187.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Are you familiar with Mr. Stegic, who is he, and was this news
20 broadcast and when? And the date here is the 23rd of July, 1992.
21 JUDGE KWON: Let's first find out what this document is about
22 from the witness.
23 Mr. Brdjanin, can you tell us what this document is about?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, as far as I can see, it has
25 to do with the following. Mr. Stegic is a journalist, as far as I can
1 remember. It's not only that I can remember, that's the way it was. He
2 talked to Bojinovic. I cannot say whether it was broadcast or not --
3 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Mr. Brdjanin, before going into the
4 content of this document, what this document at all?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see that it is being recounted
6 here -- I mean why the agency was established and what its objective was.
7 JUDGE KWON: Do you know who wrote it, in what context?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
9 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
10 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Could you please read out the last paragraph to yourself or you
13 can read it out loud if you wish.
14 A. This was an interview between our reporter, Dragan Stegic, and
15 Milos Bojinovic, president of the agency for aid in the resettlement of
16 people and exchange of material goods in Banja Luka, Stegic.
17 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us where Stegic worked? Was he employed
18 by the electronic media or the printed media?
19 A. Well, I'm not sure, Radio Banja Luka or a newspaper, I'm really
20 not sure.
21 Q. Thank you. Could this be a transcript of that interview?
22 A. I assume that that could be the case.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We have an ERN number, probably the
25 Prosecution knows how they obtained this document, but I'd like to tender
1 it now.
2 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger.
3 MR. TIEGER: That was an unilluminating colloquy on this
4 document. I don't -- the document was, as I understand it, seized by the
5 OTP in February of 1998. That's all the information I have on it, so I'm
6 not in a position to add a great deal at this point to our understanding
7 of the provenance of the document. And, as I say, I don't think we heard
8 much from the witness that enlightened us about it.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber will mark it for identification until it
11 is satisfied with its provenance.
12 THE REGISTRAR: That will be MFI D4055, Your Honours.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 405? There must be some kind of
14 mistake here.
15 THE REGISTRAR: MFI D4055.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Excellencies. At this
17 point in time I have no further questions for Mr. Brdjanin.
18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Brdjanin, as you somewhere noted, your evidence
19 in chief in this case has been admitted in most part in writing, that is,
20 your written witness statement, in lieu of your oral testimony. Now you
21 will be cross-examined by the office -- by the representative of the
22 Office of the Prosecutor.
23 Yes, Mr. Tieger.
24 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger:
1 Q. Sir, it's not referenced in your statement, but you are, of
2 course, the same Radoslav Brdjanin who was tried here in this institution
3 on charges related to your role in joint efforts to create a Serbian
4 entity from which most non-Serbs would be permanently removed; is that
6 A. Well, that is true that I was tried for that, but ...
7 Q. And that trial was not a brief affair. It began in January of
8 2002 and ended on April 22nd, 2004; correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. Over 150 witnesses were heard live, that is, viva voce;
11 over a hundred witnesses were heard through the submission in written
12 statements. That's correct; right?
13 A. Well, I assume that that is the case. I'm sorry, but I'm not
14 aware of the exact figure.
15 Q. And thousands of exhibits were produced and considered by the
16 Trial Chamber; right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And at the end of that process, you were convicted of crimes
19 committed against non-Serbs in 13 ARK municipalities, including
20 Bosanski Novi, Kljuc, Prijedor, Sanski Most, and Banja Luka,
21 Bosanska Krupa, and others; correct?
22 A. I don't know how many municipalities, but I was sentenced to
23 30 years in prison finally.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We can barely hear the
25 witness. Could he please be asked to approach the microphone and could
1 all other microphones please be switched off. Thank you.
2 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Brdjanin, you are requested by the interpreters
3 to come closer to the microphone.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.
5 MR. TIEGER:
6 Q. Okay. I take it you don't dispute either the number of
7 municipalities which were encompassed by your conviction or the specific
8 municipalities that I recited? That is contained in the judgement.
9 A. Well, I'm not disputing the fact that the Prosecutor issued an
10 indictment regarding all the municipalities that are listed there, but
11 the question is what out of all of that is all right.
12 Q. And you were convicted of persecutions, including deportation and
13 forcible transfer; wilful killings; torture; wanton destruction of
14 cities, towns, and villages; and destruction of religious institutions.
16 A. You perhaps know my judgement better than I do. It is true that
17 I was convicted; however, in view of the newly created standards,
18 especially over the past two years, I really do not know why it is that
19 I've been convicted.
20 Q. Let me turn to some of the things you say to this court in your
21 statement that has now been tendered.
22 MR. TIEGER: Excuse me, one second.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.
24 MR. TIEGER:
25 Q. Paragraph 20 of your statement indicates that there was no
1 relationship of superiority or inferiority, no subordination or hierarchy
2 between the ARK Crisis Staff and the municipal Crisis Staffs. Now,
3 Mr. Brdjanin, that same position was part of your defence in the course
4 of your long trial here, between 2002 and 2004; right?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And the Trial Chamber, after hearing all that evidence, found
7 that the ARK municipalities, with the exception of Prijedor,
8 "unquestionably accepted the authority of the ARK Crisis Staff as an
9 intermediate level of authority between the republic level and the
10 municipalities to issue binding instructions."
11 And that's -- those findings can be found at paragraph 200 and
12 205 of your judgement. Is that right? You recall that's essentially
13 what the Trial Chamber found? I see you have the judgement. I'm just
14 putting this on the record so it's clear, and you're looking at it now.
15 So if you turn to paragraph 200 --
16 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] If I may be of assistance, I think
17 that Mr. Brdjanin has the appeals judgement in front of him, so perhaps
18 that might create some confusion. I'm not quite sure.
19 MR. TIEGER: Yeah.
20 Q. I think you heard your counsel, sir. I'm referring to the trial
21 judgement, not the appeals judgement. The trial judgement is the one
22 that made these findings of fact; the appeals judgement affirmed those.
23 A. May I take a look at that? I mean, I don't know.
24 Q. I -- do you read English, sir? Because I only have a copy --
25 A. Yes, I can read that. Yes, give it to me.
1 JUDGE KWON: But I think we have in e-court --
2 MR. TIEGER: We do. So if we could call it up, that's
3 65 ter 25653.
4 THE REGISTRAR: Mr. Tieger, it hasn't been uploaded.
5 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Lukic, do you by any chance have the B/C/S
6 version of his trial judgement?
7 MR. LUKIC: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, not here in the
8 courtroom. I don't know whether it would be useful to simply go into the
9 electronic database and if we could show that particular paragraph from
10 the web site of the Tribunal.
11 MR. TIEGER:
12 Q. Mr. Brdjanin, so you know, we're trying to get that available to
13 be seen electronically. I think that's happening as we speak.
14 MR. TIEGER: I don't understand the problem, Mr. President.
15 We're taking it from every possible angle. If you want to take a quick
16 break, we'll have both the hard copy and the uploaded within just a --
17 within a few minutes. Maybe that's the simplest way to do it. I don't
18 understand the -- unless -- I see it. Okay.
19 JUDGE KWON: Is it only in English?
20 MR. TIEGER: As far as I know -- that's all I see at the moment.
21 But in any event, I would be reciting the particular portion.
22 Mr. Brdjanin indicated he has some understanding and since it will be
23 translated to him as we recite it which is -- we always put it in the
24 record anyway, so it might not be an issue. I'm happy to take that break
25 I suggested and upload the B/C/S if it's taking -- if that's a problem,
1 but I'm in the Court's hands on that, and the witness's, of course.
2 JUDGE KWON: Shall we continue in the meantime.
3 MR. TIEGER: Okay.
4 JUDGE KWON: Let's see how we can manage.
5 MR. TIEGER:
6 Q. So I had turned your attention to paragraph 200 and paragraph
7 205. 200, as we see, states:
8 "The ARK Crisis Staff, assuming all powers and functions of the
9 ARK Assembly, acted as an intermediate level of authority between the
10 Serbian BiH and the municipalities."
11 And if we turn to paragraph --
12 JUDGE KWON: Where is it in 200?
13 MR. TIEGER: First sentence.
14 JUDGE KWON: The first sentence?
15 MR. TIEGER: Yes.
16 Q. If we turn to 205 we see:
17 "With the exception," again the first sentence, "of Prijedor
18 municipality, all ARK municipalities unquestionably accepted the
19 authority of the ARK Crisis Staff to issue instructions that were binding
20 upon them."
21 JUDGE KWON: I note those two sentences are without footnotes. I
22 take it are they the findings? Are they referring to specific evidence?
23 MR. TIEGER: These are the overall findings that encompass the
24 broader factual -- specific factual findings that underpin them later in
25 the judgement. I note -- I note in particular that this judgement, as
1 others, related to witnesses who have been -- testified as we have
2 discussed in court before are available to the Court. So I don't think
3 Mr. Robinson or Mr. Karadzic have any problem if the Court pursues the
4 relationship between the broader findings and the underlying factual
6 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Please continue.
7 MR. TIEGER:
8 Q. Okay. So I'm going to -- although I'll be referring to other
9 portions of the judgement, Mr. Brdjanin, that relate to paragraph 20, I
10 wanted to confirm, first of all, that the same position you took in
11 paragraph 20 was taken in your trial and this was the conclusion of the
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Okay. With respect to Prijedor --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you. With respect to Prijedor, paragraph --
17 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry, paragraph 20 of his statement?
18 MR. TIEGER: Of his current statement before the Court --
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
20 MR. TIEGER: -- which relates to the alleged ...
21 Q. And, Mr. Brdjanin, if it's at all helpful, I have a hard copy of
22 the trial judgement in Serbian if you'd like to have that available.
23 A. Very well. Thank you.
24 Q. Okay. In paragraph 208, the Trial Chamber also noted that
25 Prijedor was an exception in the sense that there was at some stage a
1 dispute with the ARK authorities that arose from the position of the
2 Prijedor authorities, that they were underrepresented on the ARK
3 Crisis Staff. But nevertheless, Prijedor implemented the decisions of
4 the ARK Crisis Staff.
5 That's what your Trial Chamber also found in connection with that
6 particular ARK municipality; right? That's paragraph 208.
7 A. I don't know whether you're asking me to confirm now what is
8 written in paragraph 208 or to say whether that had actually happened.
9 Q. Well, I'm actually asking you to confirm that that was the
10 finding of the Trial Chamber. You're right, I understand that you took a
11 contrary position at trial; that's precisely why I'm pointing out what
12 the Trial Chamber found.
13 A. Well, that's why I didn't even need this judgement. I know that
14 you're reading from the judgement and, yes, that is what was found by the
15 Trial Chamber.
16 Q. And so you understand, Mr. Brdjanin, none of this was mentioned
17 in the statement so I'm trying to put it in the record so this
18 Trial Chamber has an accurate understanding of the background.
19 Finally, with respect to the positions you took at trial and with
20 respect to paragraph 20 here, the Trial Chamber found that the Defence
21 submission that municipalities such as Prijedor, Sanski Most, Kljuc were
22 "renegade municipalities," who acted independently of both the ARK
23 Crisis Staff and the RS republic-level authorities was not true. That
24 is, the Trial Chamber was satisfied "beyond a reasonable doubt" that the
25 crimes charged were the implementation of a plan that originated "from
1 the top level of the Bosnian Serb leadership and whose implementation by
2 the municipalities was co-ordinated by the regional authorities of the
4 And that's found at paragraph 209, and that accurately states the
5 or reflects the position taken by the Defence in your trial and the
6 findings of the Trial Chamber; correct?
7 A. It is well-known what the position of the Trial Chamber was since
8 I was sentenced to 30 years in prison, but I don't know whether I have an
9 opportunity now to say what I think about what is stated here in the
10 judgement. This is the first time that I speak. I was not allowed to
11 speak at all during the appeal or before that, and obviously my Defence
12 did not manage to prove why the Crisis Staff of the autonomous region was
13 simply a co-ordinating body or simply a service for the Crisis Staffs of
14 the municipalities. By no way -- by no means was it superior to them or
15 could it have imposed any kind of sanctions.
16 Q. Well, at this point, Mr. Brdjanin, I think we understand that's
17 your position, both by virtue of the fact, as we've just discussed, that
18 it was your position during the trial and it's your position as reflected
19 essentially in paragraph 20 and other parts of your statement. But let
20 me turn to some --
21 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
22 Did Mr. Brdjanin testify in his case or not?
23 MR. TIEGER: No, Mr. President, I don't believe so. But he can
24 answer that question.
25 JUDGE KWON: You didn't testify in your case?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I sat there for two or three years
2 like Ikebana, I don't know how to put it. I was not allowed to say
4 JUDGE KWON: But it was your decision not to testify in your
5 case, wasn't it?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, testimony. But I'm talking
7 about the trial in general, yes.
8 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
9 Yes, Mr. Tieger.
10 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Q. Well, let me talk about a few specifics before I move on. For
12 example, Mr. Brdjanin, municipality Crisis Staff presidents attended
13 ARK Crisis Staff meetings, both to find out what was happening in the
14 field within the ARK and elsewhere and to find out what they were
15 supposed to do about it. So they came to get information about what was
16 happening and to find out what they were to do next; correct?
17 A. I have to answer by explaining why the presidents of the
18 Crisis Staffs attended. It was at their proposal that the autonomous
19 region staff was founded and they just came there for an exchange of
20 information. As for the Crisis Staff of the autonomous region, they just
21 kept minutes and checked, conditionally speaking, with regard to their
22 agreements who had implemented what. So co-ordinating body would really
23 be the best expression.
24 However, what is even more important is you have three of my
25 signatures at -- on 21 records of these meetings. That is what I
1 attended. I saw on time that this was an exercise in futility --
2 Q. Mr. Brdjanin, excuse me. Mr. Brdjanin, excuse me. Mr. Brdjanin,
3 sorry, I make a quick -- few quick ground rules. First of all, I think
4 we can see now that you're repeating precisely what's in your statement,
5 and you're doing so not to answer my question but to argue about what you
6 see is the implications of that answer. So you've had a chance --
7 A. [In English] Sorry, sorry, sorry. Sorry.
8 Q. So if -- please listen to what the question is and respond to
9 that. We now have your statement before us.
10 Okay. So if I understand it, you agree that on a routine basis,
11 indeed, every Monday, you would meet with the municipality presidents and
12 inform them about the political situation in the area?
13 A. [Interpretation] They did meet on Mondays whenever they met, but
14 not with me because I said that I did not attend half of the meetings or
15 perhaps even two-thirds of the meetings. So the meetings were held on
16 Mondays and they did exchange information at these meetings.
17 MR. TIEGER: Can we have 65 ter 40458, please. That's a
18 video-clip. I'd like to play that. Sorry, it's 40458A. That may help.
19 And for the interpreters that's at English and B/C/S page 2, that
20 would be the portion of the video where we'll hear speaking.
21 JUDGE KWON: Do we not need to switch to Sanction?
22 [Video-clip played]
23 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Mr. Brdjanin, tell us, why did you
24 come and how do you see the latest developments in the Kotor Varos
1 "Mr. Brdjanin, tell us, why did you come and how do you see the
2 latest developments in the Kotor Varos municipality?
3 "Let me tell you, my duty as the president of the Crisis Staff of
4 the autonomous region is to visit all fronts. I must admit that most of
5 the time I was in the corridor leading to Serbia, but simply my visit --
6 the reason for my coming here is that every Monday I must inform the
7 presidents of all Crisis Staffs about the political situation in this
8 area. We must clean up our area which unquestionably includes
9 Kotor Varos and Jajce, and the most important battle which is underway
10 and which I attended yesterday is the break-through to Serbia. Simply,
11 we can see for ourselves that there can be no more negotiations with
12 those waging war against us. Those who took up arms must be defeated,
13 hand them over and total Serb authority must rule here."
14 MR. TIEGER:
15 Q. And that is a depiction of you at the time, Mr. Brdjanin, and
16 that reflects your contemporaneous position about the meetings, the
17 regular meetings, with presidents of municipalities -- presidents of
18 Crisis Staffs, to advise them about the political situation in the area?
19 A. Correct.
20 MR. TIEGER: I tender 65 ter 40458A, Mr. President.
21 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive it.
23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6512, Your Honours.
24 MR. TIEGER:
25 Q. Now, this Trial Chamber has received evidence from municipalities
1 concerning Crisis Staff meetings in municipalities and specifically
2 concerning references to Crisis Staff members attending -- municipal
3 Crisis Staff members attending ARK Crisis Staff meetings. I'm happy to
4 show you the individual documents if you wish, but let me indicate what
5 they reflect.
6 P2606, which is the Crisis Staff book of minutes from Kljuc,
7 indicates on 1 June 1992 - that's page 8 of the English and page 29 of
8 the Serbian - that Veljko Kondic and Rajko Kalabic were sent to attend
9 the Krajina Crisis Staff session. And June 1st is, indeed, a Monday,
10 which I think can be judicially noticed.
11 Same book of minutes reflects, at English page 14 through 16 and
12 B/C/S pages 43 through 47, that on June 9th, 1992, a Tuesday, there was a
13 report from the session of the Banja Luka regional Crisis Staff and
14 Kondic informed the Kljuc Crisis Staff of the conclusions of the regional
15 Crisis Staff session and remarked on the most important issues.
16 And similarly, at English pages 16 through 19 and at B/C/S
17 49 through 61, on the 16th of June, 1992, another Tuesday, that is, the
18 day after the Mondays that are referred to in your videotaped interview,
19 Banjac, the president of the Crisis Staff reported to the Crisis Staff on
20 the conclusion of the Banja Luka Crisis Staff on specific issues.
21 And similarly, if we turn to 65 ter 07215, pages 1 in both the
22 English and B/C/S, these are the minutes of the 29th Session of the
23 Petrovac Crisis Staff held on the 9th of June, 1992, as mentioned, a
24 Tuesday. And the first item is Rajko Novakovic, the president of the
25 Crisis Staff, briefed those present on the conclusions adopted by the
1 Autonomous Region Krajina Crisis Staff in Banja Luka.
2 Now, all those references that we just saw, Mr. Brdjanin, reflect
3 that indeed regular meetings were held at which presidents of
4 Crisis Staffs or representatives of municipal Crisis Staffs would come to
5 be briefed by you; correct? Or other members of the ARK Crisis Staff.
6 I saw you nodding, sir, but you have to answer audibly for the
8 A. When you showed the video-clip, I said that it was correct that I
9 said that and that everything was arranged like that. However, it did
10 not happen like that for many reasons. First of all, those were
11 conditions of war. People could not attend regularly on Mondays, and I
12 also stated other reasons because of which I did not attend when I saw
13 that not everything was implemented. It's true that the report about
14 Kljuc deals with how they would implement it; however, I know, though
15 nobody may believe me, they implemented what suited them in their area if
16 they had some material gain. If it didn't suit them, they didn't do it,
17 and there were no sanctions against it. So it wouldn't turn out that I
18 lied when I said that it wasn't held every Monday. I said for my
19 statement that it was correct, the intention was such, but it could not
20 be really implemented in practice, but it's true and it's correct that
21 that was the intention.
22 MR. TIEGER: If I could tender --
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ask the witness to talk a bit
24 more slowly.
25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger, did you say something?
1 MR. TIEGER: I was going to tender 65 ter 07215.
2 MR. ROBINSON: Objection, Mr. President, because this is a
3 municipality not -- where no crimes are charged in the indictment. I
4 don't think it's relevant that members of that municipality were
5 reporting to the ARK; and therefore, we object.
6 MR. TIEGER: The issue at the moment is not how many crimes
7 occurred in how many places. The issue at this moment is the nature of
8 the functioning of the ARK Crisis Staff and its relationship to the
9 municipalities and it's obviously relevant for that.
10 MR. ROBINSON: But, Mr. President, once the door is opened to
11 this kind of evidence, then certainly we should be able to show that
12 there were people who were affiliated with the ARK or attending ARK
13 meetings who weren't involved in any crimes. And I think that will
14 create a wider scope of the trial than the Chamber has so far wanted.
15 JUDGE KWON: Is it not sufficient to have what we have in our
16 transcript? The crux of the document was put to the witness. We heard
17 the witness.
18 MR. TIEGER: Well --
19 JUDGE KWON: Not agreeing in its entirety, but agreeing in
20 general about the need to -- need for a meeting and the meeting take
22 MR. TIEGER: Well --
23 JUDGE KWON: I will consult my colleagues.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber is of the view it does not need it, so
1 shall we proceed.
2 MR. TIEGER:
3 Q. And, Mr. Brdjanin, in fact the conclusions, decisions, of the ARK
4 Crisis Staff, contrary to what you state in paragraph 20 and the position
5 you took at your own trial, were considered by the municipality
6 Crisis Staffs to be binding on them, as given to them by this
7 intermediate level of authority, the ARK Crisis Staff; correct?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Let me turn to a few examples of that, if I may. P3497, English
10 page 1 and B/C/S page 2. This is an announcement of the Kljuc
11 Crisis Staff on the 8th of May, 1992, which states in part:
12 "All decisions shall be made and tasks performed in compliance
13 with the regulations and decisions of the organs of the Autonomous Region
14 of the Krajina and the Serbian Republic of BiH ..."
15 It's right in the middle of the page.
16 So here we see Kljuc Crisis Staff expressly and publicly taking
17 the position that the decisions of the ARK Crisis Staff will be
18 considered something that the Kljuc Crisis Staff will and should comply
19 with; right? That was their public position, contemporaneously, that is,
20 at the time?
21 A. You have this correct document. It's their document, I confirm
22 that it is, but there is also the decision of the Una Sana region where
23 Kljuc belongs, which are against this decision of the Crisis Staff of the
24 ARK. The dates were the 12th and 14th of June, they met in Korcanica,
25 and there are the documents which we provided during my trial. The
1 municipalities were Kljuc, Bosanski Novi, Bosanski Petrovac,
2 Serbian Bihac, Krupa on Una, Sanski Most, and Prijedor. That's the
3 Sana-Una region. They met. As Mr. Ackerman called them, the renegade
4 municipalities. I wouldn't call them renegade, but those who didn't --
5 Banja Luka never accepted the Crisis Staff and it's correct that there
6 were municipalities that accepted it, but it depended on the decisions
7 made by me and the other officials. I could do something in Celinac
8 because I was the president of the Executive Board in Celinac, but there
9 was no way to impose any sanctions against them in case they didn't obey
11 Q. Well, I was going to look at a couple more municipalities, but
12 let me, in the interests of time, simply focus for a moment on Prijedor,
13 which was earlier discussed, and on various periods of time in Prijedor.
14 MR. TIEGER: Let's first look at P3530, pages 1 in both
15 languages, that's the -- a meeting on the 9th of May, 1992 --
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript, please, while we are
17 waiting for the document.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In line 2 it's wrongly represented
20 what the witness said. He didn't say that "it depended on my decisions
21 which I made," but "it depended on my personal relations with the people
22 in municipalities."
23 JUDGE KWON: Do you agree with it, Mr. Brdjanin?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree. I said: On my personal
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
2 MR. TIEGER:
3 Q. Okay. We now have that document before us, and as we can see
4 at -- on page 1, Mr. Kovacevic, the head of the Executive Committee,
5 assures the assembled representatives that the functioning of the
6 government at the level of Krajina can now be felt. And in addition, he
7 states that:
8 "Instructions and decisions are being forwarded from the top ..."
9 And on page 2 we can also see the president of the municipality,
10 Mr. Stakic, emphasising that the constitution of the Serbian republic has
11 been implemented since 30 April 1992.
12 All right. So this is an early expression of the Prijedor
13 authorities -- about the hierarchical structure between the republic
14 level down through the ARK authorities to the municipalities; correct?
15 A. This is -- look at the date, the 9th of May, four days after the
16 establishment of the Crisis Staff. And of course, in the beginning it
17 was always idyllic. We can see that in ordinary life, as in a marriage,
18 and then later on everything gets more and more watered down.
19 Q. Okay. Let me turn to two more decisions or two more documents
20 from May, that's first P3536, English and B/C/S pages 3. And there we
21 see the Prijedor Crisis Staff stating that the decisions of the
22 responsible organs of the ARK are explicitly accepted to be one of the
23 foundations for the work of the Prijedor Crisis Staff. Correct?
24 And similarly, if I could turn to two days later, 22 May, that's
1 A. No, no, no. Would you -- please, if you can bring back the
2 document so we can look at the heading, the previous one.
3 Q. By all means. That was 3536.
4 A. Please, allow me just for a minute. The greatest confusion in my
5 trial was the result of those headings. The Autonomous Region of Krajina
6 existed. Its executive board or committee called the government and it
7 says here on the basis of the decisions. It has nothing to do with the
8 Crisis Staff. They operated all along and now they once referred to the
9 autonomous region, once to the Crisis Staff, that caused the greatest
10 confusion. I don't blame anyone, but I just wish to clarify that, if
11 possible, in these sentences, one or two sentences.
12 Q. Okay. And that's apparently the same position as you just told
13 us you took at trial. Maybe we can turn to page -- to P37 --
14 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Article number?
15 MR. TIEGER: Article 11, Mr. President, and 12 as well.
16 JUDGE KWON: Very well. If you have done the reading, we'll move
17 to the next document.
18 MR. TIEGER: And that's P --
19 Q. I'm sorry --
20 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Yes.
21 MR. TIEGER: That's P3708.
22 Q. Now, Mr. Brdjanin, in your previous answer you tried to focus on
23 the broad encompassing language of Articles 11 and 12, referring to the
24 ARK authorities, but if we look here at P3708, which is a meeting of
25 22 May, two days later, of the Prijedor Crisis Staff, it provides that --
1 or it directs all commercial and social enterprises to introduce
2 permanent operational duty "in accordance with the decision of the
3 Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of Krajina ..."
4 No ambiguity there, Mr. Brdjanin, is there? And that's a
5 reflection of Prijedor's contemporaneous hierarchical organ --
6 hierarchical understanding; correct?
7 A. On the 26th of April, 1992, I'm talking this precisely, the
8 Ministry of Defence called up mobilisation, where work obligation is
9 understood as part of the mobilisation. In the Crisis Staff and all
10 other organs were only those who were to execute this, to implement it,
11 and here the idea is to imply that the author of the document was the
12 Crisis Staff. No. We received the order and I too was assigned for work
13 obligation. Some were assigned to armed forces, others had the work
14 obligation in various ways, and there was Territorial Defence also. So
15 it wasn't an original document of the Crisis Staff, as implied, but only
16 implementation of what the ministry ordered on the 26th of April, 1992,
17 to the Ministry of Defence.
18 Q. Okay. Thank you. Let's fast-forward to late June 1992 because
19 you refer to this initial honeymoon period. So let's look at some period
21 MR. TIEGER: If we could turn to P2740. That's a 22 June 1992
22 ARK Crisis Staff decision which is being forwarded by the --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
24 MR. TIEGER: -- Prijedor Crisis Staff. If we could turn to
25 the -- let's just take a look at that underlying decision first.
1 Q. This refers to --
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. -- prohibitions on various kinds of employment and --
4 A. No, this is -- may I?
5 MR. TIEGER: And if we could turn to page 3, please. And B/C/S
6 page 4 for the benefit of the witness. Okay.
7 Q. We can see the very next day the Prijedor Crisis Staff forwarding
8 the ARK Crisis Staff decision for implementation.
9 MR. TIEGER: And then if we could turn quickly to a related
10 document, P2637. Page 1 refers to the earlier Crisis Staff document
11 dated the 23rd of June, 1992; that's 02-111-236/92. And on page -- so
12 that's what we looked at earlier, that was page 3 of the English and
13 page 4 of the B/C/S of the previous document.
14 And finally let's turn to P2637, we can see the final report on
15 its implementation. And that's at page 2 in both languages.
16 Q. And there we see a report on the ARK Crisis Staff decision we
17 looked at first of 22 June, that's 03-531 of 22 June 1992. And the
18 document states that it "has been implemented in this public security
19 station ..."
20 So these documents that we've just looked at reflect in Prijedor,
21 Mr. Brdjanin, the active implementation of ARK Crisis Staff decisions
22 following the initial declaration that ARK Crisis Staff decisions would
23 indeed be binding and the decisions were now being forwarded from the top
24 through to the ARK Crisis Staff and to the municipalities; right?
25 A. Can you please bring back the original of the document dated the
1 22nd so that I may give an answer on the basis of that?
2 Q. Okay. And just looking at this document, just note the number is
3 03-531 of 22 June.
4 MR. TIEGER: And then the witness has asked to see again P2740,
5 at page 1.
6 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, that brings up something that I was
7 also concerned about. I think that this practice of putting multiple
8 documents to the witness and asking a question at the end is -- makes it
9 very difficult for the witness. I notice on line 20 he tried to
10 intervene and now he's asked to go back to another document. So I would
11 ask that the Chamber order Mr. Tieger to elicit a comment from the
12 witness after showing him an individual document, even if it's only to
13 ask is this an example of whatever Mr. Tieger is trying to establish.
14 But if we try to make the witness keep in his head three documents, I
15 don't think it's fair to the witness.
16 MR. TIEGER: Well, three documents --
17 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
18 Thank you. Let's see how it evolves, but putting so many
19 documents before you ask a question, it may make witness difficult in
20 answering the questions. Shall we continue?
21 Let's have a break after this.
22 MR. TIEGER: Okay.
23 Q. 2740 will be in front of you in just a moment, sir. That's the
24 ARK Crisis Staff decision of 22 June.
25 A. I wanted to see this document again because you can see this is a
1 document of general nature that I did sign, one of the few that I did
2 sign. Later on I received documents that even mention prisoners. Here I
3 have a judgement in my hand where the Chamber decided that I didn't have
4 any powers over either the army or the police, especially it was very
5 clear who dealt with the prisoners. I can confirm what this document
6 said, but I cannot confirm what Simo Drljaca as chief of police said.
7 When you look at the judgement and you see that the command in the police
8 went along the chain of command within the Ministry of the Interior and
9 this is a final judgement. That was the reason why I wanted to see this
10 document again.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness said twice in line 18,
14 16 or 17, he said that this is a general document, whereas this has not
15 been recorded.
16 JUDGE KWON: Which document of general nature?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The one that we see on the screen
18 and that has been commented by the witness.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I --
20 MR. TIEGER: It's in the transcript --
21 JUDGE KWON: -- heard that and it will be corrected in due
23 MR. TIEGER: It's right in line 14. I don't know what the
24 problem is.
25 JUDGE KWON: Oh, yes. Yes, "you can see this is a document of
1 general nature," yes, it's there.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But it was repeated later on
3 several times and not recorded as such.
4 JUDGE KWON: Shall we take a break or would you like to wrap-up
5 this question?
6 MR. TIEGER: No, that's fine, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE KWON: All right.
8 We'll have a break for half an hour and resume at 11.05.
9 --- Recess taken at 10.33 a.m.
10 --- On resuming at 11.08 a.m.
11 JUDGE KWON: Let's continue, Mr. Tieger.
12 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 Q. Mr. Brdjanin, just before the recess, at transcript page 34, you
15 "Here I have a judgement in my hand where the Chamber decided
16 that I didn't have any power over either the army or the police,
17 especially it was very clear who dealt with the prisoners."
18 In fact, that's not accurate. What your Trial Chamber, in fact,
19 found with respect to your authority over the police can be found both at
20 paragraphs 212, 213, and 214. So if we turn to 212, while it is true
21 that the Chamber -- that your Trial Chamber found "the ARK Crisis Staff
22 did not possess de jure power to issue orders to the police" - that's the
23 last sentence of that short paragraph, 212 - it found, as we see
24 reflected in paragraph 213, that:
25 "In practice, however, the authorities of the ARK in general and
1 the ARK Crisis Staff in particular had de facto authority over the police
2 and co-ordinated the actions taken by the police."
3 And it goes on to explain that in particular, orders to the
4 police were issued and implemented concerning dismissals of non-Serbs
5 from employment, disarmament of paramilitary units and individuals who
6 illegally possessed weapons, selectively enforced against non-Serbs, and
7 resettlement of the non-Serb population.
8 That is a more accurate account of what your Trial Chamber found
9 with respect to your authority over the police, isn't it, sir?
10 A. The Trial Chamber -- I'm a bit confused because I'm trying to
11 locate the conclusion that specifically refers to the armed forces and
12 the police. Everything is accurate. The judgement was based on the
13 de facto basis and based on the indicia. If people had de jure, they
14 were found not guilty for de facto, but not in my case. But I'm not
15 going to go into all these details, we don't want to listen to that.
16 Anyway, I know that it is said here that the command responsibility was
17 based on the superiority and subordination principle in the Ministry of
18 the Interior. You used the word "order." I suppose that was used
19 inadvertently because the Crisis Staff only delivered decisions. I never
20 signed any document that contains the word "order."
21 Q. Decisions which we have seen were considered binding by the
22 municipal authorities, although I appreciate that you continued to
23 dispute that point; correct? But that's what your Trial Chamber found,
24 the municipal authorities did consider them binding?
25 A. Yes, that is the Trial Chamber's conclusion. Perhaps my Defence
1 failed to explain it correctly, but I stand by it and I assert that that
2 was not the case.
3 Q. And as long as we have the trial judgement open, perhaps I can
4 quickly turn to an issue raised in paragraph 23 of your statement, that
5 is, that the position of the ARK --
6 A. [In English] Just a moment.
7 Q. Yeah, 23 is the paragraph at issue in your statement, where you
8 state that the position of the ARK Crisis Staff about Muslims and Croats
9 leaving the ARK never included forcible transfer or deportation.
10 A. [Interpretation] Yes.
11 Q. Your Trial Chamber found - and the judgement reflected at
12 paragraph 248 -- so it's paragraph 248 of the trial judgement, sir, which
13 I'm turning to now - that another measure taken in furtherance of the
14 strategic plan --
15 A. Just a moment, please. Okay.
16 Q. That paragraph reflected the Trial Chamber's finding that:
17 "Another measure taken in furtherance of the Strategic Plan was
18 the resettlement of the non-Serb population. This entailed the permanent
19 expulsion of non-Serb inhabitants from the ARK and the repopulation of
20 the area with Bosnian Serb refugees coming from other parts of Bosnia and
21 Herzegovina and Croatia."
22 A. I'm sorry, 248 is not identical with this. I'm not saying that
23 it's incorrect, but there is some discrepancy, perhaps due to the English
24 version. Is this my judgement at all? Well, yes, it is.
25 Q. Well, I can assure you I'm --
1 A. No, no. I believe that, but what I have here is something
2 completely different --
3 JUDGE KWON: Are you reading trial judgement?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No -- oh, God. [In English] Sorry.
5 [Interpretation] 248, yes. My mistake.
6 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's all right now.
8 MR. TIEGER:
9 Q. Okay. And it continued that:
10 "The resettlement policy within the territory of the Bosnian
11 Krajina was co-ordinated at the regional level by the ARK Crisis Staff."
12 And that the decisions -- "the ARK Crisis Staff decisions on the
13 resettlement of non-Serbs are indicative of its involvement in the
14 furtherance of the Strategic Plan ..."
15 So with respect to the ARK's -- the ARK Crisis Staff's position
16 on transfer -- forcible transfer/deportation, that was the finding of
17 your Trial Chamber; correct?
18 A. During the main trial, I said to my Defence lawyer the following:
19 There was no strategic plan ever about forcible relocation, particularly
20 not in the sense as stipulated here. This is very serious. You can
21 attribute everything to Serbs, but you can never attribute it to them
22 having made some kind of plans because we are a people prone to
23 improvisation. Quite simply, there was no plan. We followed the
24 situation which dictated for people to be relocated rather than to be
25 killed or to perish. This happened due to a variety of reasons, fear and
1 everything else, not only on the Serbian part. People moved for various
2 reasons. I'm not trying to justify this, I'm not commending this; I'm
3 just telling you that that was what the situation required.
4 Q. And one more paragraph, at 233, with respect to this same issue,
5 the Trial Chamber found dismissals of non-Serbs was one of the first
6 measures toward the implementation of the strategic plan referred to in
7 the previous paragraph; correct?
8 A. I'm very glad that you raised this issue because there were no
9 dismissals as such but people were reassigned to different work-places,
10 which was done by any political party anywhere in the world once they win
11 elections. This is the practice in every country all over the world.
12 This is not about dismissals. This is about not their being able to be
13 in executive positions after the winning of the SDS, and specifically in
14 view of the situation that prevailed that might have caused a rift among
15 our ranks.
16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to speak more
17 slowly. Thank you.
18 MR. TIEGER:
19 Q. Mr. Brdjanin, you're being asked by the interpreters to slow down
20 your rate of speech. So --
21 JUDGE KWON: Can I interrupt --
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.
23 JUDGE KWON: Just a second -- yes, Mr. Karadzic first.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness said that it might be
25 prejudicial to our defence, that's page 39, lines 24 and 25. This is
1 nonsense what has been recorded. What he said was that it could damage
2 our defence effort.
3 JUDGE KWON: A minute ago, Mr. Brdjanin, you said the following,
4 I'll quote:
5 "You can attribute everything to Serbs, but you can never
6 attribute it to them having made some kind of plans because we are a
7 people prone to improvisation."
8 Do you remember having said that, Mr. Brdjanin?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE KWON: Could you expand what kind of plans were you talking
11 about as a result of improvisation? Could you be more specific?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps I can explain this very
13 briefly. Due to the fact that we are a people of great individuals, and
14 if we had only one party, we would have become an opposition to our own
15 party. This is neither positive nor negative in my view. Believe me, at
16 the state level and at the level of state plans, there were plans on how
17 to defend ourselves or how to wrap-up our territories if others didn't
18 want to live to us; however, there was never any plan or there were no
19 political instructions how to harm other people, how to expel them, or
20 how to disenfranchise them.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes. I can understand that. But you talked about
22 plan as a means of improvisation, so could you expand on that.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No. Since I'm an engineer by
24 profession, you cannot have an improvised plan. What I actually wanted
25 to say was that there were no such plans that are being mentioned in all
1 the judgements, not only that against me.
2 JUDGE KWON: Very well. I'll leave it at that.
3 Please continue, Mr. Tieger.
4 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Q. Mr. Brdjanin, just to clarify, the answer you provided to my
6 question about the paragraph regarding dismissals is -- that is --
7 sorry -- that is, people were reassigned to different work-places, it's
8 the practice in every country around the world, et cetera, was the same
9 position that was argued to -- by the Defence in your case to the
10 Trial Chamber, but the paragraph I read to you at 233 about what the
11 Trial Chamber found regarding dismissals, that is, that it was one of the
12 first measures toward the implementation of the strategic plan, was in
13 fact what your Trial Chamber did find; correct?
14 A. That is correct. The Trial Chamber reached conclusions which
15 were totally contrary to what our assertions were, but that was
16 completely beyond my control.
17 Q. Now, let me turn to another topic, and that is some of your own
18 efforts to implement the positions taken by the republic-level
19 authorities. It's correct to say, is it not, that, for example, in 1991
20 you were actively involved in ensuring the implementation of policies
21 formulated by Mr. Karadzic which he directly communicated to you and
22 which you then communicated to the municipalities and attempted to
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we get some more specific
25 details as regards which policy the Prosecutor is referring to.
1 MR. TIEGER: I don't believe the witness sought assistance on
2 that question, but if he does we will address whatever inquiry he has.
3 Q. The answer is yes?
4 A. Yes. I also need to know more.
5 Q. Were you in contact with Mr. Karadzic in 1991, telephone contact,
6 personal contact?
7 A. Well, most probably I was. Now if you ask me 23 years later, I
8 don't know whether it happened often. He had other commitments, not to
9 speak to me on a daily basis. But if you are interested in which policy,
10 I can only tell you exactly what I know.
11 Q. And did he entrust to you the responsibility to ensure the
12 implementation of positions that he had taken, the implementation of
13 actions that he wanted to see taken on the ground?
14 A. Well, first of all, there was no Mr. Karadzic policy, but rather
15 the policy of the Serbian Democratic Party that won the elections at
16 least in the Serbian entity and among the Serbian people. Secondly,
17 perhaps -- but not perhaps, most probably, he charged me with this but I
18 wasn't able to do it on my own. This was not the president's policy
19 because that was the policy that had to be implemented at this particular
20 point in time. Don't forget that we had lived in a beautiful country of
21 Yugoslavia and the Serbs were the only people who were eager to preserve
22 this country and prevent it from breaking up.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Two interventions in the
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On page 42 the witness said: Most
2 probably I do not deny, is what he said. And just now he said that: He
3 charged me with something but not with that. He used the word
5 JUDGE KWON: Let's continue. Thank you.
6 MR. TIEGER:
7 Q. And --
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It would be much easier for
9 everyone if the witness spoke more slowly.
10 MR. TIEGER:
11 Q. And you expressed your loyalty and commitment to the principle of
12 hierarchy and the need to obey the commands of those above you and the
13 need for those below you to obey the commands that you made or passed on;
15 A. It's very difficult to give you a yes or no answer. Some people
16 considered me as an opposition and other people considered me what you
17 described as they saw fit. At any rate, at that point in time I was part
18 of the winning team that won the elections, and of course I had my own
19 opinions, but I did, however, often realise that I have to respect the
20 opinion of the majority.
21 Q. Mr. Brdjanin, the nature of your relationship with Dr. Karadzic
22 in 1991 was such that he, in one telephone conversation in late October
23 of 1991, chided you for coming to him with every single little problem
24 and told you that he's not your nanny, that you had the power in your
25 hands and he wanted you to exercise that power energetically and fully.
1 That's the truth of your relationship with Mr. Karadzic in 1991, isn't
3 A. What follows from this is that we basically talked every day;
4 however, you do have to know that Mr. Karadzic was so busy that if you'd
5 call him twice in two months' time he could have said that and he usually
6 would say that because he was way too busy. But please do not infer that
7 we talked every day; I would not have had that opportunity.
8 In 1991, conditionally speaking, I was unknown. It's not that I
9 could talk to anybody whenever I wanted to. I mean, it's not that I was
10 absolutely unknown. I don't want it to look as if I were lying now, but
11 it's not that I was held in such regard that I could talk to whoever I
12 wanted to whenever I wanted to.
13 Q. Mr. Brdjanin, in late October 1991, there was a meeting of all
14 the municipality presidents and that happened in Banja Luka. And that
15 resulted in the so-called Sarajevo -- the SDS order or Sarajevo order,
16 which included such things as immediately forming commands of the town,
17 setting up around-the-clock duty, full mobility of the
18 Territorial Defence, taking over management in public enterprises, the
19 post office, the SDK, and by all means the media, and other matters. And
20 the person put in charge of implementing that was you; right? And that's
21 a more accurate reflection of your relationship with the accused and your
22 power at the time than what you told us in the previous answer.
23 A. In October 1991, I think as far as I can remember, I was
24 vice-president of the Assembly of the Autonomous Region of the Krajina.
25 I could receive such instructions within the autonomous region where
1 there was a president and a president of the government, if you will, of
2 the Autonomous Region of the Krajina, and my answer would not really
3 differ from my previous answer. All things that one had to do were not
4 always based on trust. It depended on who had what kind of affinity for
5 organisation. Perhaps it's because of my profession, because in the
6 business sector I was always in charge of setting up some kind of
7 organisation. That would imply good management or at least average of
8 good management.
9 Q. The document I referred to before is P3581, it's a
10 29 October 1991 Telex regarding the order of the SDS Sarajevo.
11 MR. TIEGER: If we can call up 3581 and look to the second page
12 in English.
13 Q. There you can see that you, sir, are the -- sending this out on
14 behalf of Dr. Karadzic as the co-ordinator for implementing decisions,
15 these decisions; right? So contrary to your previous emphasis on what
16 you tried to characterise as your limited position, you are implementing
17 these important -- you are charged with implementing these important
18 decisions by Dr. Karadzic?
19 A. Without wanting to pay you compliments, I believe that you're not
20 in that position -- I mean, you are in that position because you're a
21 good lawyer, and you know full well that co-ordinator does not mean that
22 one has decision-making powers. And what it says here is "co-ordinator,"
23 and thank you for showing this document.
24 Q. I wasn't saying that you made that decision. I'm saying that
25 you're in charge of co-ordinating the implementation of those decisions
1 made at the republic level, and that's the truth of it, right? And
2 that's a reflection of the power that was entrusted to you by
3 Dr. Karadzic?
4 A. I'm going to repeat this once again. It is true that this came
5 to me and that I was the co-ordinator, but if I may just say this
6 regarding paragraphs 1 and 2, that was superfluous then and it is now.
7 There was an army, the JNA then, that did not allow the establishment of
8 any kind of town commands or whatever, and later on we are going to see
9 when it was that the Army of Republika Srpska was established; however,
10 what we inherited was the JNA because Yugoslavia was still in existence
11 in October 1991.
12 Q. And this Trial Chamber has received evidence that on
13 September 7th, there was a meeting in Pale, the so-called Pale symposium,
14 to make decisions regarding regionalisation and that on the 6th,
15 Dr. Karadzic spoke to President Milosevic, told him he'd be holding this
16 plenary with all his officials. That was held on the 7th and decisions
17 were made, and we see an intercepted telephone conversation from a
18 Main Board member describing the decision that was made about dividing
19 Bosnia into units.
20 Now, before that decision was made, before that meeting was held
21 on the 7th of September, Dr. Karadzic called you and -- to advise you
22 that there would be a meeting at which important things would be decided
23 and that everything that you thought or wanted would happen but would
24 move forward in a particular way, and that's reflected at P5886. And I
25 want you to take a look at that quickly.
1 Now, I want you to look at the second page of the English and the
2 second page of the B/C/S as well. Okay. That's where Dr. Karadzic says:
3 If you had brought the decision on the referendum, it would have been
4 terrible. You tell him we have not -- have not obeyed. Dr. Karadzic
5 tells you: There's no problem, Brdjo, come tomorrow, you will see --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Could we please see exactly where you're
7 reading from. Thank you.
8 MR. TIEGER: In the English it's about the one-third down from
9 the top of the page and in the B/C/S it's up at the top.
10 JUDGE KWON: You started reading from the line below the
11 underlined sentence.
12 MR. TIEGER: Right. Thank you, Mr. President. Right.
13 Q. And then we continue:
14 "There is no problem, Brdjo, come tomorrow you will see. We do
15 all and everything will be what you think, only, only way is ..."
16 And then Dr. Karadzic goes on to describe what Tudjman is
17 thinking, and then he talks about Van den Broek trying to convince
18 Milosevic and he continues:
19 "And now they need to mess that Conference up, and now they are
20 looking for any way to mess that Conference up tomorrow ..."
21 Now, that reference to the conference tomorrow is a reference to
22 the opening of the Conference on Yugoslavia in the Peace Palace, right,
23 on September 7th; correct? If you need some refreshment about the date,
24 I have a document that would reflect that date.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, could we take a look at the
1 date when this conversation took place so that we do not mislead the
3 MR. TIEGER: The date -- I'm suggesting that this intercept is
4 misdated on its heading and I'm trying to contextualise it on the basis
5 of exactly what was stated at the time with the witness, who was just
6 about to confirm that it is a reference to the opening of the Conference
7 on Yugoslavia because he was nodding his head "yes."
8 Q. Is that correct, Mr. Brdjanin, this is a reference to the
9 Conference on Yugoslavia?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And do you recall on your own or would you like to see a document
12 that indicates the conference opened on September 7th, 1991?
13 A. Well, I couldn't remember that it started on the 7th, but that's
14 what you read out and I have no reason to doubt that.
15 Q. Okay. Well, we can quickly turn to 65 ter 06436, and there we
16 see the declaration on the occasion of the ceremonial opening of the
17 Conference on Yugoslavia, Peace Palace, The Hague, 7 September 1991. I
18 take it from your nodding your head that conforms to your general
19 recollection of the date?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. TIEGER: And I tender that, Mr. President.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But there's something important in
23 this document.
24 MR. TIEGER:
25 Q. Okay. If it's dealing with the subject we're dealing with.
1 A. An intercept, when Mr. Karadzic says "you should," it doesn't
2 pertain to me only but to the members of parliament. We had
3 17 presidents of municipalities, 20 MPs, Krajina was two-thirds of our
4 entity. Here one gets the impression that it pertains to me only, no.
5 It is all the representatives of the people from that part of
6 Republika Srpska.
7 Q. Okay. Thank you.
8 JUDGE KWON: We'll receive the declaration.
9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6513, Your Honours.
10 MR. TIEGER:
11 Q. And with respect to your own authority, in contrast to other
12 representatives of the Serbian people from that part of Republika Srpska,
13 what your Trial Chamber found at paragraph 295 is that the top leadership
14 of the Serbian BiH of Republika Srpska granted you a high degree of
15 authority and autonomy in areas of fundamental political importance,
16 which is indicative of the trust that you enjoyed at the highest
17 political level. That's what your Trial Chamber concluded after the
18 trial was completed about your own authority, in contrast to some of the
19 other people you just referred to.
20 A. It is correct that those were the findings of the Trial Chamber.
21 That was the greatest surprise because the Trial Chamber found that I
22 should be acquitted in terms of the joint criminal enterprise because
23 their assessment was that often my views were quite different, not to say
24 the opposite. But I do not see any document that shows that I was given
25 some kind of political power. Which document is that? Minister of civil
1 engineering, nowhere in the world is that political power. This is
2 professional. Also the deputy prime minister in charge of economic
3 affairs, I don't know, perhaps I don't understand this. But rest assured
4 that my thoughts are sincere, that I'm not trying to hide anything, I'm
5 just thinking out loud, and I have this opportunity now to say what I
7 Q. Now, we -- this Trial Chamber has heard evidence of the tensions
8 surrounding the efforts to declare Krajina a republic, tensions that were
9 resolved on the 29th of February, 1992, at the 14th Session of the
10 ARK Assembly. And a couple of weeks after that Assembly, you explained
11 to the public that while there were differences between the Banja Luka
12 and Sarajevo options for solving the Serbian question, there were no
13 divisions and that you people from Krajina did not wish to split-off from
14 the body of the Serbian people in BH, but did want to split-off from
15 Alija. And in that regard, let me assist you by showing you
16 65 ter 05419, a "Glas" newspaper article dated the 15th of March, 1992,
17 which is D3070.
18 A. May I respond?
19 Q. Well, first of all, that's -- that reflects your -- the newspaper
20 article reflects your comments and positions in mid-March 1992; correct?
21 A. Yes, I see the comments and positions here, but may I respond to
22 your question about us wanting to split-off from Alija?
23 Q. Well, that wasn't precisely the question I was really focused on,
24 the division, but I see that the article raises your comment that you
25 want to split-off from Alija. So if you have something to say briefly
1 about that, please do so.
2 A. Yes, I made a mistake when I said that we wanted to split-off
3 from Alija. Actually, it was Alija who wanted to split-off from
4 Yugoslavia and from us, and we had no reason to split-off from anyone.
5 Because at that point in time we were still defending Yugoslavia by all
6 possible political means.
7 Q. All right. Let me jump ahead now from mid-March, then, to the
8 period shortly after the 16th Assembly Session which was held on
9 May 12th, 1992, in Banja Luka. I mentioned that date in particular
10 because you mentioned the -- yourself a few moments ago the establishment
11 of the army and so on. So we can agree, I take it, that at the
12 16th Assembly Session in Banja Luka the VRS was formally established,
13 General Mladic was selected as the commander of the Main Staff, the
14 strategic objectives were annunciated by Dr. Karadzic, and there was a
15 general discussion of the political and security situation at that time;
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, not more than three weeks after that session in Banja Luka,
19 Dr. Karadzic met with you once again but this time in a somewhat smaller
20 setting of more selected people, correct, also in Banja Luka?
21 A. I'm sorry, do you have a document that could jog my memory?
22 After all, it was 23 years ago, 22 years ago, I don't know exactly which
23 meeting you have in mind.
24 Q. Sure.
25 MR. TIEGER: Could we call up P1478, page 53 in both languages.
1 Q. Mr. Brdjanin, while we're waiting for the document to come up,
2 this is an entry in the war journal kept by General Mladic between
3 1991 and 1995. And this reflects an entry for the 2nd of June, 1992, in
4 Banja Luka, a meeting with the leaderships of the Bosnian Krajina, the
5 SRK, and unit commanders of the 1st Krajina Corps, and the commander of
6 the air force and anti-aircraft defence of the Serbian BH. And if we --
7 I'll direct your attention to this in a moment, but if we -- well,
8 let's -- familiarise yourself with what it says here. It's Dr. Karadzic
9 who speaks about the issue of the functioning of authorities, talks about
10 the tasks of the authorities, indicates that a decree has been issued on
11 War Presidencies. Agents of the government will be sent to the junior
12 organs of the authorities. If we can turn the page, there we see you
13 speaking, and among the things you say is:
14 "Everything in the ARK is done at Crisis Staff level because that
15 is where the work -- that is where work all of.
16 "It is a mistake to appoint agents from the centre ..."
17 And if we can -- I --
18 A. I would --
19 Q. I mean, I can ask you about separate pieces of this, but I wanted
20 to show you also before we -- before I ask you questions, another
21 document which also reflects this meeting. So perhaps I can do that now.
22 This is a document --
23 MR. TIEGER: I mean, I think we have to go into closed session
24 for this -- go into private session, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE KWON: Why don't you put a question about this while we are
1 in public session?
2 MR. TIEGER: Well, I was going to show this one so he has the
3 aggregated information of -- that's available about that meeting and then
4 aggregate the questions as well so we don't have to go in and out of
5 private session for questions. I thought if I -- if he had the
6 information available and then I ask questions about it, it would be more
7 efficient and more public than asking questions first, going to another
8 document, asking questions about that in private session, and coming back
9 to the public -- that's the issue I had in mind. I'm at your disposal,
10 of course, but I thought it through, I actually talked it over with
11 Mr. Robinson, and thought that might be the best way to do it.
12 JUDGE KWON: Let's deal with this document first.
13 MR. TIEGER: Okay.
14 Q. All right. Well, first of all, Mr. Brdjanin, does that refresh
15 your recollection about this meeting generally, that you met with
16 Dr. Karadzic and some of the people whose positions are reflected in the
17 first part of the document?
18 A. First of all, had you not shown me this document, I would have
19 only remembered that I was opposed to the appointment of commissioners
20 and if I can explain that in two sentences why. Because usually people
21 that I called sycophants were usually the ones who were candidates for
22 these positions and nobody could hear the real truth or anything good
23 from these people. So I was opposed to that. I would not be able to
24 remember this meeting just off-the-cuff, but now I do remember.
25 Especially in Banja Luka there was this commissioner who was not even
1 respected by his own family, so, of course, he couldn't have had the kind
2 of respect that a commissioner was supposed to enjoy.
3 JUDGE KWON: The question was also asked about the entry which
5 "Everything in the ARK is done at Crisis Staff level ..."
6 Do you have any observation on that?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I do. Yes. That was a
8 response to the appointment of commissioners. That is contained in my
9 statement; you'll be able to find it. Perhaps that is what made me
10 decide not to attend a few sessions of the Crisis Staff because I
11 realised that since the commissioner was appointed, the authority of the
12 Crisis Staff was no longer there. Even in municipalities where we tried
13 to exercise some influence, we realised that we couldn't do that because
14 it was the commissioners that now had a say.
15 MR. TIEGER:
16 Q. Well, Mr. Brdjanin, let's try to put this in context. First of
17 all, you were responding here to the information provided by
18 Mr. Karadzic, that he'd be appointing commissioners to come -- to go to
19 the regions and the municipalities and to oversee what was done; correct?
20 He told you he was going to do that and you objected to it?
21 A. I personally do not remember whether it was at that meeting or
22 whether I received this in writing, but I do know that it had come from
23 the top and that I was opposed to commissioners then, and now, 22 years
24 later, I'm still opposed to that.
25 Q. And what you told Dr. Karadzic at that meeting, as reflected here
1 in these notes, is that everything is done at the Crisis Staff level.
2 Crisis Staff is doing that, so it's a mistake to appoint agents from the
3 centre. There's no need to do that; right? You told him it was
4 pointless and he shouldn't do it.
5 A. The sentence pertains to the following, that the Crisis Staff is
6 receiving information about everything that the Crisis Staff is in charge
7 of -- well, often not but often yes. And there is no need for there to
8 be yet a third party that is going to convey this information
9 second-hand. So I'm not saying that we should be doing everything
10 because it was well known that we were just doing things that belonged to
11 the field of the economy and logistical support to the armed forces.
12 Q. And, in fact, Mr. Brdjanin, although commissioners were appointed
13 in that month in such places as Bratunac, that's P5491; or Vlasenica,
14 P5486; or Zvornik P5479; or Foca, P3339, during the period of time that
15 the ARK Crisis Staff was in existence, no commissioner was appointed for
16 that area, and your position that there was no need to do so because the
17 ARK -- because the work was done at the level of the ARK Crisis Staff was
18 adhered to, was followed. Isn't that correct?
19 A. I know that you have the date when the commissioner was appointed
20 in Banja Luka. I cannot just say yes or no to you now, but I know what
21 his name is. You know it too. So sorry that I'm asking that, but you
22 can tell me when he was appointed. Mr. Jovan Cizmovic was commissioner,
23 except that I don't know from when until when. That's the only thing I
24 don't know.
25 Q. Well, we do not have any records reflecting the appointment of a
1 commissioner for that area until Mr. Kupresanin was appointed
2 commissioner for a few isolated municipalities on the 27th of November,
3 1992. It is correct that we have evidence that Cizmovic served in a
4 co-ordinating role, an important co-ordinating role in the latter part of
5 December 1991 and the early part of 1992, but now I'm talking about
6 commissioners. So you asked for the information that -- that we have and
7 that's --
8 A. I don't know. I don't know. Look, I didn't want to mislead you
9 in any way, but I just know that all my life and throughout the war I
10 fought against war profiteers and I did not personally have any regard
11 for him because as people were losing their lives, he just cared about
12 making more money in his law office. And I'm not ashamed of thinking
13 that. I've said that publicly. And unfortunately, we all seem to be
14 losers now, are on the losing end, and it's only the war profiteers that
15 have won. And when I said "won," I mean among all three peoples, all
16 three ethnic communities.
17 Q. I'm going to return --
18 JUDGE KWON: Who's "he," Mr. Brdjanin? He just cared about
19 making more money in his law office, who did you refer to?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This gentleman, the co-ordinator as
21 he was called or the commissioner.
22 JUDGE KWON: Because we heard two names, Cizmovic and Kupresanin.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, not Kupresanin. Kupresanin has
24 nothing to do with profiteers; that referred to Cizmovic.
25 MR. TIEGER: I'm going to return to this document in a moment,
1 but meanwhile if we could go to private session, I'd like to go to
2 65 ter 07539.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes
4 [Private session]
11 Pages 43686-43689 redacted. Private session.
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session.
19 MR. TIEGER: And next page, please, where Mr. Brdjanin is
21 Q. Mr. Brdjanin, while waiting for the English to come up, you'll
22 see that's the portion of your comments that we looked at previously, but
23 they continue on to the next page, at page 54.
24 A. I see what we already commented on about the commissioner.
25 Q. 54, please. There you say the problem of the Krajina,
1 14.500 Muslims, and if we continue on to the next page, the last question
2 you ask:
3 "About prisoners and refugees? A position please at the highest
5 So that last comment, a position about prisoners from the highest
6 level, that's a reflection, is it not, of the many Muslims and Croats at
7 that time being held in facilities within the Krajina; correct?
8 A. Not in facilities. You can read it here, this 14.500 has to do
9 with the exact number of Muslims according to the census from 1991 in
10 Banja Luka. I don't know, I don't understand which facilities you mean.
11 Q. I'm looking at the comment about prisoners and refugees. Do you
12 see that in front of you right now?
13 A. Oh, that's another issue. We requested the position because it
14 was known then who had the right to issue the recommendations according
15 to the Geneva Conventions. It was the Ministry of Defence.
16 But please allow me to point out one very important thing in
17 connection with this document now that you've brought it back. I'm proud
18 that I was opposed to the commissioners, but I didn't say the most
19 important thing. They were not appointed by Karadzic but he signed at
20 the proposal of the base, and I tried to persuade the president that the
21 base proposed wrong people so that you wouldn't have the impression that
22 President Karadzic brought these people from somewhere. He only signed
23 this, and I'm obliged to clarify that. I said that I knew who these
24 people were. I was not believed. In the end, it turned out that I was
25 right. But it had nothing to do with appointing them because the base
1 proposed them because they were trying to -- the people who proposed them
2 were trying to woo the lower instances by doing so.
3 MR. TIEGER:
4 Q. Let's -- let's -- thank you.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] One remark about the interpretation
6 about prisoners and detainees or prisoners is in English and it should be
7 prisoners of war, because that's not the same thing.
8 MR. TIEGER: We've been through this before. If there's a
9 problem with the translation, there are ways to handle it. And this is a
10 recurring issue and the Trial Chamber has spoken on it before.
11 JUDGE KWON: Let's continue.
12 MR. TIEGER:
13 Q. Now, Mr. Brdjanin, what prisoners were you referring to?
14 A. Generally speaking, in any war regulations are issued, military
15 ones, how to treat prisoners, this kind and that kind, various
16 categories. That's what I had in mind. We do not --
17 Q. No, no, no, no. Mr. Brdjanin, I'm not talking about the category
18 of the term "prisoners." I want to know what human beings you were
19 referring to when you said: We want a position about prisoners and
20 refugees. You were aware by that time that there were people, that is,
21 Muslims and Croats, being held in facilities, weren't you?
22 A. I have said that in my statement. I know that no one believes
23 that in this Tribunal. Many things were not known and I didn't know,
24 because it was no public secret. You don't think that someone who was
25 doing something unlawfully announced that on TV and in the press and so
1 on. We were obliged to read the military and civilian regulations and
2 everything because we had a state of war, even though Republika Srpska
3 never declared the war. But we needed to know this precisely in order to
4 prevent some people who may behave differently than what is prescribed by
5 international conventions such as the Geneva ones and so on.
6 Q. So your testimony is that you wanted to know from Dr. Karadzic
7 whether there was going to be a position on prisoners that accorded with
8 the Geneva Conventions or a position that was contrary to or different
9 from the Geneva Conventions? So you had to ask him whether or not you
10 should abide with the Geneva Conventions; is that it?
11 A. No. No, no, no, no.
12 Q. You were asking for a position at the highest level about
13 prisoners; right?
14 A. Yes, we requested the position because many people who
15 participated in the war were not familiar with Geneva Conventions and
16 regulations and rules. We know that in every war at least 2 or
17 3 per cent of people are the so-called dogs of war who are ready to do
18 something bad and that everyone should have instructions on what to do,
19 such as those that were issued by the minister of defence, how each
20 soldier has to treat a prisoner, and we wanted to have as many people to
21 be reached by that. You cannot tell me that you know how anyone is going
22 to act in any war in the world. Because that was our wish too. Not
23 everyone is educated, not everyone is literate and not everyone has
24 goodwill. Unfortunately, it turned out that there were those who did not
25 have the goodwill and that's why something like that ought to exist.
1 Q. So that's your testimony about what you said to Dr. Karadzic at
2 that meeting, something to the effect of: You know, just in case we get
3 any prisoners, can you have some kind of symposium or send out a pamphlet
4 about what our position is and whether it will accord with the
5 Geneva Conventions; is that basically it? That's what you were talking
6 about at this meeting?
7 A. First of all, I think that the question is -- let me not say
8 quite strange. So if we had any prisoners -- I couldn't take any
9 prisoners. I was a civilian organ. We just wanted to have it in
10 writing. I repeat, there are always people who are willing to commit
11 what is called a crime. We only wanted to have this in existence. We
12 knew that the ministry issued it. We knew that it was sent, but we
13 believed that it wasn't distributed widely enough because the
14 mobilisation was massive at one point.
15 Q. Mr. Brdjanin, by that date, Hambarine and Kozarac had been
16 cleansed and more than 7.000 people had been rounded up and taken to
17 Omarska or Trnopolje; and that's found at P3656.
18 A. All right, correct. But there is the Assembly of
19 Republika Srpska where much earlier than that Dr. Karadzic talked about
20 the implementation of the Geneva Conventions. Perhaps as soon as war
21 operations began, that was something that was very often expressed in the
22 Assembly of Republika Srpska, and if someone learned that somebody was
23 doing something that shouldn't be done, we perhaps reminded them that it
24 should be distributed again so that people could see how they could
25 behave and how they mustn't behave.
1 Q. And you said to the Assembly, bragged to the Assembly, in fact,
2 in the 48th Session in December of 1994, 48th Assembly Session, that:
3 "We populated Kozarac the first day it was liberated." That's at
4 page 105 of the English and page 72 of the B/C/S. So I put it to you,
5 Mr. Brdjanin --
6 A. Please.
7 Q. -- that you knew about thousands of prisoners at --
8 A. [Overlapping speakers] -- no. First of all, that we populated
9 Kozarac as soon as it was liberated, that was -- in my trial we even
10 tried to find the journalist who published that. We said that we visited
11 Kozarac rather than that we populated it. How can we populate it? Not
12 even in theory. You couldn't populate any place at that time. And I
13 discussed this. If you want to know that I knew, I have to explain this
14 so that we clarify this once and for all. It was even ascribed to me
15 that one Mejakic reported to me in Omarska and when Mejakic was arrested
16 and brought before ICTY, before ten witnesses including Muslims and
17 Croats, in The Hague he met me, and I asked him: Why are you being
18 introduced to me now when you reported to me? And he said: What are you
19 talking about? This is the first time I see you. You can't believe
20 everything that the witnesses say. I went to Prijedor because of the war
21 reserves with President Radic --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please slow down. He's way too
24 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. You were too fast. Could you repeat
25 from where you went to Prijedor.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I first came to Banja Luka. We
2 were building a bridge on the border between Banja Luka and Celinac, so
3 it was about financing it. And they told me: Come with us to one place.
4 When we set off, I asked: Where are we going? When we were halfway
5 there, they said: We are going to Prijedor because of commodity
6 reserves. Radic and Vukic told me so. When we came close to Omarska,
7 the witnesses claimed here that I came to the collection centre, as it
8 was called then, and that Mejakic reported something to me. I was
9 shocked. When Mejakic was arrested and brought to the same floor in the
10 DU as myself, he greeted all people from Prijedor and he was introduced
11 to me. I asked him: Why are you being introduced to me when the
12 witnesses claimed that you reported to me? He said: This is the first
13 time I see you in my life.
14 What happened? We had come in front of this collection centre
15 where it was reported that the Muslims had been sheltered there to be
16 protected from extremist groups of both Serbs and Muslims. I'm not
17 saying that's correct, but I'm telling you what the report was. When I
18 saw that people were inside, that there were many of them, I got really
19 angry and everyone who was there can testify to that, and I stayed in the
20 car. Mr. Radic got out. It's late Mr. Radic now, but truth be told, I
21 have to say that he criticised someone vehemently there, he was very
22 loud, and then we continued on to Prijedor. There they told us that the
23 municipality had been attacked. There are many documents that show that.
24 They told us how the fighting for Kozarac had progressed. Then we went
25 to visit Kozarac. There were still ruins and everything. It would be
1 crazy to say that we populated it. With whom? Only if I went to live
2 there. You can see there in the judgement that it's claimed that I was
3 also speaking out against mixed marriages even though my own family is
4 all in mixed marriages, 100 per cent. But I cannot fight this. Whoever
5 was saying anything in Krajina, it was ascribed to me because I'm here.
6 The principle is: If you have him, then blame him for everything. I'm
7 not that kind of man. I never condemned anyone.
8 The fact is that I received information and informed the state
9 leadership that there was a collection centre there. The chief of police
10 arrived and said that they were sheltered there, and then I said: If
11 that's so, then that's good, they should be protected. We should have
12 done that in Banja Luka as well. However, the journalist used my -- he
13 left out my conjunction and he said only "that's good." And I had great
14 problems here before the Tribunal because I said it was good. That's
15 what I think --
16 THE INTERPRETER: Again the witness is reminded to slow down for
17 the purpose of interpretation.
18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Brdjanin, I'm not sure whether we need all that,
19 but you speak too fast. Mr. Brdjanin, do you hear me? Please slow down.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can hear you.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript, please.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On page 67, lines 22 and 23, it
24 turns out that the witness said that he had been shocked because Mejakic
25 was arrested. Instead it says that witness said he had been shocked at
1 hearing some people saying it was Mejakic who reported to him.
2 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
3 Yes, please continue, Mr. Tieger.
4 MR. TIEGER: I'm looking at the time, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE KWON: Oh.
6 Yes, we'll have a break for 45 minutes and resume at 1.20.
7 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.33 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 1.22 p.m.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue, Mr. Tieger.
10 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Q. Mr. Brdjanin, in paragraph 33 of your statement, you refer to
12 your speeches in the Assembly on various matters which you assert vary in
13 tone. You also say that your intention was not to create an atmosphere
14 which would instigate criminal behaviour or create an atmosphere of fear
15 and uncertainty among other ethnic groups. Now, although this
16 Trial Chamber has already received some evidence about your comments
17 about non-Serbs, the Trial Chamber which heard your case heard extensive
18 evidence about that, and in four separate paragraphs dealt with that
19 issue. First, in paragraph 325 of your judgement, in contrast to your
20 assertion in paragraph 3 about your intentions, the Trial Chamber found
22 "By his public statements the Accused created fear and hatred
23 between Bosnian Serbs on the one hand and Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian
24 Croats on the other hand, inciting the ethnic groups against each other."
25 And it refers to various types of derogatory language used to
1 refer to non-Serbs.
2 Do you have that paragraph in front of you and can you confirm
3 that, in fact, was the Trial Chamber's findings at that paragraph with
4 respect to the impact of your public statements?
5 A. Yes, this is exactly what the Chamber concluded, although I
6 honestly still think that that was not my intention; however, if the
7 Chamber arrived at this conclusion, then it's correct [as interpreted].
8 Q. In paragraph 327, the Trial Chamber found that in "unambiguous
9 terms and in a frightening manner," you called upon the non-Serb
10 population to leave, indicating repeatedly that only a small percentage
11 would be allowed to remain. All right. And that was the Trial Chamber's
12 findings reflected in paragraph 327; correct?
13 A. [In English] Correct. [Interpretation] Yes, it's correct, this
14 is the Chamber's finding.
15 Q. And --
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In line 19 on page 70, it turns out
19 that the witness said: If the Trial Chamber found that, then it's
20 correct; whereas the witness says it is accurate that the Chamber found
21 this but it's not correct. And he repeated this a minute ago.
22 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
23 MR. TIEGER:
24 Q. The Trial Chamber also found in that same paragraph, 327, that
25 those statements were made at the same time that you publicly advocated
1 the dismissals of non-Serbs from employment, that is, from early
2 April 1992 to the end of 1992, when the process of dismissals was
3 practically complete. And again, that is a reflection of the
4 Trial Chamber's findings with respect to your statements about non-Serbs;
6 A. I have already explained, we asked for people to be reassigned
7 and you can find it in documents. Reassignment was carried out in 80 to
8 90 per cent of cases, even before the Crisis Staff had been established,
9 that is to say, prior to the 5th of May, 1992.
10 Q. And that's the argument that was made at your trial and the
11 Trial Chamber's findings are as reflected in 327 as just recited; right?
12 A. Yes, the argument was put forward but they found what they have
14 Q. And in paragraph 330, the Trial Chamber also addressed those
15 public statements again, stating:
16 "The Accused's public statements had a disastrous impact on
17 people of all ethnicities."
18 The Trial Chamber noted that it incited the Bosnian Serb
19 population to commit crimes against non-Serbs and made a substantial
20 contribution to creating a climate where people were prepared to tolerate
21 crimes, to commit crimes, and where otherwise well-meaning people felt
22 dissuaded from extending any kind of assistance to non-Serbs.
23 That's also an accurate reflection of what the Trial Chamber
24 found in your case about your public statements? You can confirm that's
25 what the Trial Chamber found; right?
1 A. There is another conclusion of the Trial Chamber contained in the
2 judgement, but I'll not talk about it. All I want to say is that I said
3 in my statement that at the time these statements could have been harsh
4 and offensive. I don't deny that. But it's an outcome of the overall
5 situation. We were at war, insults were hurled from all sides, although
6 I don't justify it. But the only thing I should have emphasised was that
7 these insults were addressed at the respective national leaderships
8 rather than the Muslim or Croat peoples. It might be a kind of clumsy
9 statement; however, there is an opinion of the Trial Chamber to the
10 effect that my statements cannot be connected to any crime committed and
11 that a direct link can be established.
12 I repeat, those statements were made at a time when there was an
13 ubiquitous fear, not my own personal fear, resulting from the state of
14 war. Therefore, I kindly ask them to be put in the proper context. This
15 is nothing to be proud of, but they were as they were. And I repeat,
16 they were targeting the leaderships. I didn't say that at the time; I
17 should have made that clear. Ordinary people are, most of them, normal
18 and there's only a handful of people who deserved to be called names that
19 might have been offensive at certain point in time.
20 Q. Well, and speaking of fear, in paragraph 331 of your judgement
21 the Trial Chamber found that the non-Serb population of the Bosnian
22 Krajina understood your public statements as direct threats to leave the
23 areas under Bosnian Serb occupation and many of them did so in fear for
24 their lives. That's another finding of your Trial Chamber about your
25 public statements; correct?
1 A. If I'm not mistaken, Mr. Ackerman on the occasion of this
2 decision presented evidence that perhaps --
3 Q. Mr. Brdjanin --
4 A. -- only 5 to 6 per cent, and I'm not saying that these figures
5 are correct --
6 Q. Do you confirm or dispute that that was the finding of your
7 Trial Chamber about your public statements, as reflected in
8 paragraph 331?
9 A. I do not dispute that this is a conclusion, but I am disputing
10 the fact that the moving out happened at that time, it happened much
11 later, and we offered proof in the form of documents. But I'm not
12 disputing the conclusion reached by the Trial Chamber.
13 Q. Now, I note that paragraph 33 focuses on your speeches in the
14 Assembly, but I'm not sure that your Assembly speeches alone do justice
15 to the full range of things that you were saying publicly about
17 MR. TIEGER: So I'd like to turn to 65 ter 40035B, which is a
18 filmed rally in August of 1994 of tens of thousands of people. And for
19 the benefit of the interpreters, the -- this is -- sorry, I'm trying to
20 get the transcript page, if I can. It's page 1 of the English, page 1 of
21 the B/C/S.
22 [Video-clip played]
23 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Anchor: Mr. Radoslav Brdjanin,
24 people's deputy.
25 "Radoslav Brdjanin: Brothers and sisters, dear people of
1 Krajina, and all other patriots who have come to this meeting, we must
2 not succumb to the greatest deceit that we are voting for war or peace;
3 we are voting for the betrayal or rescue of Republika Srpska. Those
4 leftist forces which are offering us coexistence again must know that it
5 is the obligation of Serbs over the next hundred years to wipe their feet
6 from the foul non-Christians who have befouled this soil of ours. It is
7 also not true that we don't know where our borders lie. Our borders
8 extend from Benkovac to Trebinje. Our borders extend from the Hungarian
9 border all the way to Sokolac and I hope with the capital of Belgrade,
10 when we say that we are a national Serbian state. We must tell the world
11 that on Serbian land, no one has the right to proclaim as victims those
12 who have been defeated as victors because this is the native land of
13 Tsar Dusan, Prince Lazar, Karadjordje, and the Serbian heroes of today.
14 I urge you to participate in the referendum in large numbers because that
15 referendum, let me warn you, offers to us that we cede 20 populated
16 places, of which 13 are cities. It offers to us that we return to Alija
17 and Tudjman and live with them. And I suggest that we put a barbed wire
18 and say that never again will our enemies spread throughout Krajina and
19 attack us for the fifth or fourth time in this century. The worst thing
20 is that some individuals have now remembered that we should not have
21 waged war, as if we were the ones who imposed war. Some have now
22 remembered that NATO is dangerous. Do these gentlemen know that our
23 lives, the lives of those who are married and have children, are several
24 times cheaper than the lives of the young men lying in the graves. On
25 their behalf, damned be the one who betrays Republika Srpska and the
1 interests of the Serbian people."
2 MR. TIEGER:
3 Q. Mr. Brdjanin, when you referred to "the foul non-Christians who
4 have befouled this soil of ours," that's a reference to Muslims; right?
5 A. I already said that I never made reference to an entire people.
6 However, before I give you an answer let me say that this speech was
7 delivered after several funerals that I attended of young men in their
8 20s who died, and I couldn't possibly realise -- and you see, there are
9 200.000 men in Foca, all of them dressed in white as Arabs, and I was
10 referring more to those who felt themselves to be Arabs rather than
11 Yugoslavs. And in this context I mentioned some emotions. At that
12 moment when a person is enraged and angry can say all sort of things. He
13 doesn't mean it necessarily. It is better to argue than to fight. The
14 rest of my speech, there is nothing contentious about that. There is
15 only a very small percentage of Serbs who never wanted Belgrade to be the
16 capital. What is wrong with -- about that? Every British person wants
17 London to be their capital unless it is prohibited. However --
18 Q. Mr. Brdjanin -- Mr. Brdjanin --
19 A. -- they wanted to break Yugoslavia up --
20 Q. Excuse me, excuse me, sir. I didn't ask you about that part of
21 your speech, and I think you answered the questioned I asked.
22 You also suggest in that speech that Serbs put up barbed wire so
23 that their enemies will never again spread throughout Krajina. That
24 means to keep out those who are no longer in; right?
25 A. No, no, no, no. That was a figure of speech. That means put a
1 fence between us. That's what I wanted to say. That was better rather
2 than to -- people being killed. When you say "barbed wire," that's a
3 figure of speech. That means the strongest division between people, and
4 that's what I meant, between us.
5 Quite simply, the Serbian speeches are sometimes literally
6 translated into English, but this is not correct. I was talking about
7 division and separation. We didn't want to live again. They didn't want
8 to live with us. Whether they were right or not, I was speaking about
9 the facts. I know what speeches were delivered. I delivered many of
10 them, not only in the Assembly. I know very well in which context,
11 though, were delivered and I said that some of them were harsh and
12 offensive. I don't deny that and I explained to you the reasons why I
13 did that.
14 Q. Here you say let's put up -- you call it what you want, a barbed
15 wire barrier, a fence, a barrier, to keep Muslims and Croats from
16 returning to the RS, as you put it, spreading through Krajina. And on
17 other occasions you emphasised that there is no way that
18 Radoslav Brdjanin would participate in any process that would return
19 Muslims and Croats to Republika Srpska; right?
20 A. No. I said there was no way for us to advocate coexistence any
21 longer because at the time when the war broke out, in addition to the
22 fact that it is persistently omitted here what Mr. Karadzic said, that
23 Alija sacrificed peace for sovereignty, we said to the people that they
24 cannot go to a referendum for the breakup of Bosnia-Herzegovina from
25 Yugoslavia. And had we advocated that, they -- we would have avoided
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I must intervene.
3 JUDGE KWON: What he stated is a bit different. What he said is
4 that: We put up a barbed wire and say that never again will our enemies
5 spread throughout Krajina and attack us for fourth or fifth time. That's
6 what he said.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But he didn't say "non-Serbs."
8 JUDGE KWON: No, no. That's not for you.
9 MR. TIEGER:
10 Q. And I asked you, Mr. Brdjanin, if on another occasion you
11 emphasised that the greatest wonder on earth would be the thought that
12 Radoslav Brdjanin could participate in a process of return of Croats and
13 Muslims. You did say that, right, that's your position?
14 A. At this time I know what I said and I heard it. I don't dispute
15 that. I don't think that I was --
16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please slow down.
17 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Mr. Brdjanin, it's me, could you
18 repeat. The interpreters couldn't hear you because you spoke too fast.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.
20 The entire war, the SDA existed in the Assembly of Banja Luka,
21 including the HDZ. I was talking about the people who took to arms in
22 order to disintegrate Yugoslavia. I was not talking about honourable
23 people. You might say that I did not emphasise that, but of course I did
24 not mean the people who contributed to this in no way whatsoever.
25 MR. TIEGER: Let's look quickly at P1392, English page 50, B/C/S
1 page 46.
2 JUDGE KWON: Are you tendering the previous clip?
3 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Mr. President. Thank you.
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll accept it. It will be Exhibit P6515.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In its entirety or only the portion
6 that we viewed?
7 JUDGE KWON: We have three pages. I think we'll admit those
8 pages in terms of transcript.
9 MR. TIEGER: This is a --
10 JUDGE KWON: Only the Brdjanin part, yes. It's maybe two pages.
11 MR. TIEGER:
12 Q. This is a discussion at the 41st Assembly Session, Mr. Brdjanin.
13 And -- about, as you can see from the first line, in the context of a
14 discussion, the Law on Housing, in which there is a suggestion made
15 earlier that somehow this may result in the return of Croats and Muslims
16 and you say the following:
17 "You have a right to reject it, but I think that no one has a
18 right here to insult someone. First of all, gentlemen, you cannot fool
19 me that you believe in the greatest wonder of the world, such as that
20 Brdjanin could participate in a process of return of Croats and Muslims.
21 I openly say from this floor that half of our towns would belong to
22 Muslims now if it were not for such fools as Brdjanin and similar
24 And that was one of your public statements at the Assembly that
25 you asserted in your -- in paragraph 33 was not intended to cause fear or
1 uncertainty; right?
2 A. You showed me this document. The debate was about the
3 Law on Housing, which entails that private property is sacrosanct. Then
4 somebody said that I was creating a new form of brotherhood and unity and
5 that I want Croats and Muslims to return, and I said that they shouldn't
6 resort to that. We were only discussing the bill, and my secretary
7 presented more than 20 decisions that I signed to the effect that Muslims
8 and Croats should return to their flats because private property is
9 inviable. And this is demonstrated by means of the decisions that I
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection. This is a drastic
12 change of the meaning through interpretation. Brdjanin said that we
13 would have had half of Muslim towns, whereas it was translated that half
14 of our cities would belong to Muslims. Brdjanin said instead that we
15 could have occupied half of Muslim towns, whereas the translation says
16 something quite opposite and this is a drastic change of the meaning.
17 JUDGE KWON: Shall we continue?
18 MR. TIEGER:
19 Q. Mr. Brdjanin, you were tasked by the government in January
20 1994 --
21 MR. TIEGER: Let me call up D3588.
22 Q. You were tasked by the government along with Velibor Ostojic to
23 prepare the programme for the accommodation of refugees in the republic;
24 correct? We can look at the document if you want.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Okay. And as explained by Mr. Ostojic, that programme had
2 essentially two purposes: One, the accommodation of refugees; and two,
3 the goal of ethnical, geographical continuity of Serb population, that
4 is, building a new demographic politics? It's not going to be reflected
5 in that document. I'm asking you to step outside the document for what
6 the purpose of this programme was since you were a participant in it with
7 Mr. Ostojic.
8 A. The objective of the programme was really to provide
9 accommodation for refugees. Republika Srpska was full of refugees from
10 Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina. There was a looming disaster in terms of
11 health conditions and accommodation. People were put up in some
12 collective centres. Of course, all the decisions on housing were issued
13 on a temporary basis.
14 Q. And I'm not suggesting that there was no interest in the
15 refugees. As I indicated to you, I was asking you whether or not the
16 purpose was two-fold: One, accommodate the refugees while achieving the
17 goal of ethnical geographical continuity of the Serb population and
18 thereby build a new demographic?
19 A. This is 18th of January, 1994. I have 20-odd decisions issued in
20 1993 in favour of Muslims in Banja Luka. Therefore, the objective was
21 not to get rid of other populations, and you can see these decisions from
22 the Ministry of Construction dated 1993.
23 Q. Well, perhaps I can turn your attention to a couple of things
24 said by your co-participant in the preparation of the programme,
25 Mr. Ostojic. First, what he said at the 34th Assembly Session in August
1 and late September -- actually, October 1st as well, 1993, and that's at
2 the 13 -- P1379. That's pages -- page 212 in the English and 230 in the
3 Serbian. Mr. Ostojic there, and this is at the bottom of the page in
4 English, in the beginning of his comments, he refers to his service on
5 the committee as a minister without portfolio and states:
6 "We were aiming to achieve our goal, which was
7 ethnical - geographical continuity of Serb population, while
8 accommodating the refugees. And actually we were building new
9 demographic politics for the RS ..."
10 Now, that's an accurate reflection, is it not, of the dual
11 effort, the dual objective, that was being pursued by Mr. Ostojic at that
12 time and later by you and Mr. Ostojic in the programme for the
13 accommodation of refugees?
14 A. Well, look. I would like to be fair to the end. As far as I
15 know, Mr. Ostojic has passed away. I have to be fair. But by the way, I
16 think that all MPs know that he and I never agreed -- I'm not only
17 talking about this but generally speaking. Anyway, he said what he said,
18 and I'm telling you that as minister of construction what I implemented
19 was the complete opposite of what was stated here.
20 Q. Just one more comment by Mr. Ostojic on this subject, this time
21 after the government had tasked the two of you with preparing the
22 document. And this is found at P1388, page 168 of the English, 135 in
23 the Serbian. This is the 39th Session of the Assembly held on the
24 24th and the 25th of March, 1994, which the record reflects you attended,
25 Mr. Brdjanin.
1 A. All right.
2 Q. And now we have it on screen. In English if we look toward the
3 latter part of the middle, just above the page demarcation of 33 there,
4 Mr. Ostojic says:
5 "But the first part of the work has been done. That document is
6 called the Project on Demographic Policy of Republika Srpska was made.
7 We have to deal with this problem first, in order to establish the
8 geographic continuity of the Serbian population in RS area."
9 And if we turn the page in Serbian, he goes on to note the four
10 particularly sensitive areas that should be worked on: Herzegovina,
11 Birac, Posavina in two directions, and the Sana/Una area.
12 And again, after the joint effort by you and Mr. Ostojic on the
13 programme, we see his continuing confirmation of its dual purpose, which
14 includes the geographic continuity of the Serbian population and that
15 aspect of the demographic policy; right?
16 A. What Ostojic was pointing out was verbatim what I'm going to say
17 now. There were many Serbs in Sarajevo, about 40.000 of them, in Zenica
18 and in bigger cities. People wanted to move to cities in
19 Republika Srpska, primarily Banja Luka, and that was impossible. Then
20 this commission and Ostojic insisted they move into smaller towns that
21 were predominantly Serb. And now, that is no problem whatsoever except
22 for the fact that, say, the citizens of Sarajevo did not want to go, say,
23 to Bratunac or other very small towns like that, but they were told that
24 it was virtually impossible to do it in any other way. And this was the
25 demographic situation that was there in the newly created
1 Republika Srpska, which, after all, was recognised by the Dayton
3 Q. The demographic situation where large portions of the territory
4 were basically vacant because the previous inhabitants, the Muslims and
5 Serbs [sic], were no longer there; correct?
6 A. In Krajina, where I lived, that was not the case. It was
7 predominantly populated by Serbs, but I think that in areas like the
8 eastern part of Republika Srpska the population was predominantly Serb.
9 However, you also have cases that were quite different. The Serbs were
10 the second-most numerous population and the population would leave all
11 together and then they'd have no other place to go but Republika Srpska,
12 so that Republika Srpska should not remain empty and have the entire
13 population move into two or three big towns or cities, that was
14 impossible. And that's why this relocation took place; that is to say,
15 to show that it was possible to live and work there.
16 MR. TIEGER: Mr. President, this is right on the time allocation.
17 I have one matter I would like to address that was raised earlier. I
18 actually sent out for a document connected with it. It's a very discrete
19 matter raised by the witness in connection with population figures. I
20 think I can raise it pretty briefly.
21 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Mr. Tieger.
22 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.
23 Q. Mr. Brdjanin, at page 62 and the top of 63 of today's transcript,
24 when you were looking at P1478, that is, the record of the 2 June 1992
25 meeting reflected in the -- General Mladic's journal, you looked at an
1 entry that referred to the problem of the Krajina, 14.500 Muslims.
2 That's an entry in the journal about what you were saying that preceded
3 your request for a position at the highest level about prisoners and
4 refugees. You said that the -- quote:
5 "This 14.500 has to do with the exact number of Muslims according
6 to the census in 1991 in Banja Luka."
7 MR. TIEGER: Well, the -- if I could have 65 ter 00242, please,
8 B/C/S page 16.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can answer before the document is
11 MR. TIEGER:
12 Q. Yeah. If --
13 A. There's a small mistake here. I meant to say 14.5 per cent,
14 that's indeed what I meant to say, but it wasn't even that. The greatest
15 surprise of all for us was that in the census, there were more Croats in
16 Banja Luka, 14.5 per cent in Banja Luka, and Muslims 14 per cent. I
17 think the population was 196.000 all together, perhaps a bit less, and
18 then if you look at that percentage then that is more than 14.500. I
19 don't know what that pertains to, but what I really meant to say was
20 14.5 per cent. And after all, in Krajina, in the entire autonomous
21 region there were a lot more Muslims; there's no denying that.
22 Q. So your position is that when you said -- when it's recorded as
23 "Krajina," you meant -- let me just make sure I have this right, you
24 meant Banja Luka, and when it says "14.500," you meant 14.5 per cent?
25 A. I know that that is what we were saying all along and I know that
1 that's what I thought, 14.5 per cent, because 14.500 doesn't fit into
2 anything. So this is probably mis-recorded or perhaps at that moment I
4 Q. Thank you, sir.
5 MR. TIEGER: I have nothing further.
6 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
7 Mr. Karadzic, do you have re-examination?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, briefly, Excellency. But
9 could we also return this document?
10 JUDGE KWON: What document?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The one that was on the screen, the
12 census. Could this be zoomed in? Could it be blown up as much as
13 possible? Thank you.
14 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
15 Q. [Interpretation] Could you please take a look at this,
16 Mr. Brdjanin. The figures are for 1971, 1981, and 1991.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. How has this percentage moved for Muslims, Croats --
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We could not find the
20 numbers referred to.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That is correct.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Thank you.
24 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Were there demographic movements even without the war, before the
2 war, that is?
3 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. We haven't heard the -- your
4 question, Mr. Karadzic, because of the overlapping. To which question
5 did witness say "that's correct"?
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that he answered the
7 question about these figures for -- or rather, the census for 1971, 1981,
8 and 1991. And that Croats were 21 per cent, 16 per cent, and 14
9 per cent, whereas the Muslims were 15.3, 11.8, 14.6.
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. Were there any demographic movements in absolute and relative
12 terms before the war as well?
13 A. From 1945 onwards, the Croats who could always --
14 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- wanted to move to the centre
16 called Zagreb and the Muslims who could tried to move to the centre
17 called Sarajevo.
18 JUDGE KWON: How is this relevant or how does this arise from the
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it arises because it was
21 suggested that there was a war going on and that we took advantage of the
22 war in order to expel Croats and Muslims; however, these movements were
23 there all along.
24 JUDGE KWON: Please move on to another topic.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 You can remove the document now.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. You were asked about that term, non-Christians. What about
4 communists who were Serbs, were they Christians or non-Christians?
5 A. I didn't want to go back to that question put by the Prosecutor
6 but --
7 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
8 Yes, Mr. Tieger.
9 MR. TIEGER: Even I on cross-examination asked a less leading
10 question than that. This is Dr. Karadzic's continuing effort to testify.
11 JUDGE KWON: But -- was the question -- what was the question?
13 MR. TIEGER: If he wants to know -- I'm sorry.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE KWON: Let's not spend time on this.
16 What is your question, Mr. Karadzic? Move on to your question.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 Let me just say that translation is a problem once again. It has
19 to do with being baptised or not baptised. It's not about somebody being
20 a Christian or not being a Christian. It's the translations that are so
21 bad --
22 JUDGE KWON: Let's leave that topic and come to your real
23 question. What is your question?
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Brdjanin, you were asked about the meeting on the
1 2nd of June, the one that you couldn't remember. Was this a big meeting
2 or was this a smaller meeting, a short meeting?
3 A. Well, I probably would remember it if it were a big meeting and
4 of major importance.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
7 65 ter 13589.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. This is from the diary -- or rather, this is from the news.
10 Please tell us what they are reporting. You don't have to read it out
11 loud. It says "in a short working visit." Is that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted?
15 MR. TIEGER: No objection.
16 JUDGE KWON: We'll receive it.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D4056, Your Honours.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] P1478, please, and then the pages
19 that we looked at, 53 first and then further on.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Mr. Brdjanin, you put some questions to me over there --
22 A. I don't have that document here yet.
23 Q. We'll have it -- you do remember the question? Did I take you
24 seriously then and what followed after that? Did I take some action, do
25 you remember?
1 A. No, no. I don't know. I don't remember.
2 Q. Aha.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 53 then, the next page.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. This last bullet point, what is it that you say there, the last
7 A. Just a moment, please. Where is that now?
8 Q. The last three lines.
9 A. When you said that we are in favour of everything being under the
10 command of the army and for the dissolution of all paramilitaries. If
11 there is anything I talked about, it is this, that everything should be
12 under the regular military and that the paramilitaries could only harm
13 us, harm our movement.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 55 now, please.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Here --
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I please have page 55 now.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Your last two sentences.
21 A. Just a moment. You mean the bit up here?
22 Q. Yes. Before Zecevic.
23 A. About prisoners and refugees. A position, please, at the highest
25 Q. Thank you. This was on the 2nd of June. Between the 12th of May
1 and the 2nd of June did I visit Banja Luka?
2 A. I'm sorry, I cannot say.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I have the next page now.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Just the first sentence, please, Mr. Kupresanin's first sentence,
7 could you read it out loud.
8 A. "Since the session our situation has got worse."
9 Q. Thank you. Which session does he mean?
10 A. Well, he means some previous one, but I cannot decipher now what
11 he has in mind. I don't know. What's the date? Just tell me the date
12 and I'll tell you.
13 Q. The 2nd of June.
14 A. I don't think he meant the session of the Assembly on the 12th.
15 That was considerably before that, the 12th of May, but anyway.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] D426, could that be shown to the
18 witness. And this page, could it be added, unless all of it has been
19 admitted already?
20 JUDGE KWON: We have it all, Mr. Karadzic.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. This is the 8th of June, 1992. It's an appeal by
25 Radovan Karadzic. And now please take a look at the numbers here. We
1 are addressing the local authorities to ensure protection and care for
2 all wounded and ill persons no matter what side they belonged to. Then
3 also to treat all prisoners humanely.
4 "3. To spare civilian population of all attacks.
5 "4. To provide protection and all possible aid to refugees.
6 "5. To respect the Red Cross sign ..."
7 What I did four days later, is that related to the questions that
8 you put on the 2nd of June?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. At that meeting, did you ask for this or did you ask for the
12 A. No, this is what I asked for so that everybody would know what
13 the official positions of the state were, fitting into all sorts of world
15 Q. Thank you.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] D428, could that please be shown to
17 the witness now.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. This is a day later, the 9th of June, a session of the
20 Presidency. Please look at item 11.
21 A. I see it.
22 Q. Is this in any connection with what you asked for?
23 A. Yes, absolutely.
24 Q. And can you look at item 1, please.
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Is that also in some connection with what you asked for?
2 A. If you allow me to answer with at least two sentences, we
3 precisely asked that everyone should receive instructions on how to act
4 because we did not have power to tell anyone anything. This is what we
5 requested and this was sent to all military units and all civilian
7 Q. Thank you. It was suggested to you that the municipalities,
8 except for Prijedor, listened to you, obeyed you, and carried out what
9 you said except for Prijedor, the Chamber --
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D9882, could that be shown to the
11 witness, please.
12 MR. TIEGER: I have to say that's a mis-characterisation of the
13 evidence that was put to this witness or the suggestions that were made
14 on cross-examination.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I remember well, Mr. Tieger
16 suggested that Prijedor, too, obeyed and carried out the decisions of the
17 Crisis Staff.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Can you please look at the conclusion here which reads:
20 "The Crisis Staff of the Prijedor Municipality does not accept
21 and deems invalid all decisions of the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous
22 Region of Krajina adopted before the 22nd of June, 1992."
23 And item 3:
24 "Inform the Crisis Staff of ... this conclusion."
25 How does this fit into what you knew and how does it fit into the
1 claims made by the Prosecution?
2 A. I listed here four members who answered all these questions, and
3 if I could see the minutes, it would be a great pleasure for me to
4 examine this together with the Trial Chamber. These were articles of the
5 judgement 163, 204, 212, and 216. All these issues are discussed, the
6 power and lack of power of the Crisis Staff, what was possible, and what
7 was not possible. And as for this decision made by Prijedor, it is quite
8 clear to me, it's just not clear to me why it came from Prijedor because
9 practically it was the conclusion of the Sana/Una region, in which the
10 deputies convened the Assembly. I see here that the name which is
11 mentioned is Dr. Milan Kovacevic, I think. And I believe that at the
12 session held in the Sana/Una region, the deputies who wanted to express a
13 lack of trust in the Crisis Staff of the autonomous region had the main
14 say. But these articles from the trial judgement are very important for
15 me. I kept looking at the appeals judgement and now I have read these;
16 they talk about everything.
17 Q. Thank you. On what did it depend what the municipal
18 Crisis Staffs would implement and what they wouldn't?
19 A. I don't know. I -- there is no reason for me after my judgement
20 and 14 and a half years in prison to try to trick anyone, but it really
21 depended on personal relations. If I was on good terms with the
22 president of the municipality like in Celinac, they would say we need to
23 introduce duty, then we would do it. If I wasn't on good terms with
24 somebody, they would say: No, no, implementing such decisions is out of
25 the question. It was really on such basis, which has not been accepted
1 here. But now, after so many years, I really have no reason here to say
2 something that is not true.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted?
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, next Defence exhibit.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D4057, Your Honours.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. The Prosecutor suggested to you that you were in power in the
10 AR Krajina and that the authorities were part of a harmonious whole from
11 the republican to the municipal level. Did something like that exist on
12 the 2nd of June, 1992, when we met at this short meeting? Was there such
13 a harmony between all levels of the authorities?
14 A. Well, all right --
15 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
16 Yes, Mr. Tieger.
17 MR. TIEGER: Well, I mean, I don't know that setting up a straw
18 issue is really the best way of assisting this Chamber. I don't think
19 the word "harmony" was used. If the accused wants to accurately
20 characterise the positions put to this witness, that's fine; but to
21 introduce this particular kind of standard is -- and then ask the witness
22 to respond as if it's somehow meaningful to the cross-examination I think
23 is misleading.
24 JUDGE KWON: What is your question, Mr. Karadzic? Come to your
25 real question, not in a leading way.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise. I'm waiting for the
2 interpretation to end.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Mr. Brdjanin, was there unity, as it has been suggested, and
5 harmony in executing power from top to bottom? I'm not sure what were
6 the exact words in which that was suggested, but it was suggested that
7 you were a part of an organism of power.
8 A. To speak frankly, we cannot call it a harmony. We in Krajina
9 really believed that we were damaged. With regard to the central
10 authorities that we were more threatened, that our natural resources were
11 completely destroyed, and very often we had heated discussions, but it
12 was all based on the economy as the article 163 of the trial judgement
14 Q. Thank you.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] P3927, can this document please be
16 shown to the witness briefly. This is a regular combat report for the
17 2nd of June, 1992. And if we could please show page 3 of this document
18 in Serbian. It could be page 2 in English.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Here we have combat morale. Please look at this sentence:
21 "Certain divisions in the SDS leadership are transferring
22 themselves to the troops in our units. This is particularly noticeable
23 in the relations between AR Krajina and SR BH, and amongst the
24 municipalities in Bosanska Dubica," and so forth.
25 How does this fit, this assessment of the army, with your
1 experience about this alleged unity?
2 A. Well, in the beginning - and I stand by that, that we had an
3 army - in the beginning we had a certain degree of mistrust. Because the
4 idea to preserve a concept which followed from the communist Yugoslavia
5 was primary. And we claimed that that could not survive. And so as not
6 to expand that, some who testified here confirmed that, even if they were
7 Prosecution witnesses.
8 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell the Chamber, when talking about
9 replacements of directors in public enterprises, which party was
10 responsible for the functioning of public enterprises?
11 A. Everywhere in the world the party that wins the elections is
12 responsible, and we here talked about the SDS which was the party that
13 won the elections in that part of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
14 Q. Thank you. Did we replace the communist cadres from the
15 companies that were of public importance and which we were competent for?
16 A. I think that even the judgement says that the first cadres who
17 were removed from positions in Banja Luka were the Serbian personnel who
18 had been members of the communist party. They were the first ones who
19 were removed from their posts. Of course, later on there were Muslims
20 and Croats too, but I'm talking who were the ones who were removed among
21 the first.
22 JUDGE KWON: Pause please.
23 Yes, continue.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Could you tell us -- I have come across such documents of yours
1 but I don't have them at the moment. Could you tell us, therefore,
2 whether the directors of these public enterprises were loyal to
3 Yugoslavia immediately before the outbreak of our war and also during the
4 conflicts in Slovenia and Croatia. Do you -- are you aware of some
5 examples of disloyalty, not just leaking of information but in the way
6 people acted?
7 A. Well, it's a broad notion but there was disloyalty on part of the
8 Muslim, Croat, and even Serbian personnel in the sense that they simply
9 did not understand at that point in which times we were living and that
10 practically war had broken out in these areas.
11 Q. Thank you. It was suggested to you that the policy of
12 Republika Srpska was to change the demographic image and that continuous
13 policy in our republic was pursued with that goal in mind and that you
14 and Mr. Ostojic were appointed in order to implement such a policy, a
15 housing policy, yes, that housing policy was aimed at achieving that sort
16 of continuity. Was the policy of Republika Srpska and my own policy such
17 that abandoned property and spaces which had been left by those who were
18 not Serbian should be allocated to Serbs in order to change the
19 democratic picture?
20 A. Accommodating refugees in vacant property was always temporary
21 and the decisions were always phrased so. Why did the state or municipal
22 authorities take that on themselves? That was the only way to protect
23 the property, because before that, people entered of their own free will
24 into abandoned houses and apartments.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please show the witness
2 P1379. This is a session of the People's Assembly held in August and
3 September 1993. In Serbian we need page 170 and 171, and in English 162
4 and 163.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. I will read it out to you so we don't have to look for it.
7 Karadzic, and then the third sentence under --
8 A. Yes, yes, I can see it.
9 Q. "It seems to me in our Republic the housing has to be a temporary
10 problem, for we have to accept international law and documents, as well
11 as international standards. We have to respect the property of those who
12 possess this property."
13 Were you aware of this view and did anyone oppose this position
14 of the president expressed in the parliament?
15 A. I believe that I've already said several times that I was aware
16 of these views. I cannot remember, but probably in discussion someone
17 expressed opposite views but I think that they agreed about this
18 position. At least it was the majority and probably it was everyone.
19 Q. Thank you. And the last paragraph here:
20 As for our obligation towards the property of ours, others also
21 have obligations with regard to our property. I believe that at the
22 level of the state and the republics if this plan is implemented, if the
23 Muslims soon sign it, that we will have one list, and the republics that
24 have to compensate each other, if there are people who left there and
25 left their property here, that would have to be compensated to the other
1 republic, and so on and so forth.
2 Do you remember every option, return or compensation, was part of
3 our policy with regard to stripping people of their rights? Was there
4 any change of the status of property in a violent way or one that was not
5 agreed on?
6 A. I think that there is still a plan --
7 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please slow down.
8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Brdjanin, with that speed it's impossible to
9 catch up with your answer. Could you repeat it again and this time very
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right. All right.
12 This policy fits precisely also in the programme drawn up by the
13 Ministry of Construction that no one's privately owned property can be
14 alienated or taken away; it has to be respected.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Thank you.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If we are still on page 100 -- no,
18 something is wrong. In Serbian we need page 170, and then towards the
19 bottom it says:
20 "I will advocate that whatever we should compensate to the
21 Muslims who have left and cannot return and who knows whether after ten
22 years anyone will dare to return anywhere. I know that the Serbs cannot
23 and do not dare and do not want to return to Zenica. The debt should be
24 turned into a public debt and we as society and the state will pay that
25 to the Muslim state so that it can pay indemnity to its citizens."
1 And can we please move to the next page in Serbian.
2 "In the meantime, in our republic we should have refugee's card
3 of each family. I think that we have such a regulation, and according to
4 this, we will pay approximate indemnity to our citizens for what they
5 have left there, where it will belong to the republics of the Muslims and
6 the Croats."
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Were you aware of this?
9 A. It was my conviction that this was correct and decent and only
10 possible at that moment.
11 Q. Thank you, Mr. Brdjanin. Let me just say if I only said
12 "minister," it wouldn't be enough because you were something more than
13 that to the people in Krajina. Thank you.
14 A. Thank you to everyone.
15 JUDGE KWON: Well, that concludes your evidence, Mr. Brdjanin.
16 Thank you for your testimony. Now you are free to go.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.
18 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber's thanks also goes to Mr. Lukic.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Does this mean that I may go home?
20 You said that we were free.
21 JUDGE KWON: We have 20 minutes for today, but -- is
22 Mr. Krajisnik waiting?
23 MR. ROBINSON: No, Mr. President. He's arriving this evening.
24 JUDGE KWON: All right.
25 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, if I could just take a minute to
1 put something on the record at the request of the Registrar and that is
2 that for Exhibit D1721, which the Trial Chamber has ordered in a written
3 order of the 8th of November be amended by having the pages put in
4 correct order, we've now completed that. Thank you.
5 JUDGE KWON: And I forgot the exact title of the filing, but your
6 request for the counsel of Mr. Mejakic to be present, it is hereby
8 Then unless there's anything further to be raised, the hearing --
9 yes, Mr. Tieger. The hearing is adjourned.
10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.41 p.m.,
11 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 19th day of
12 November, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.