1 Thursday, 21 November 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.08 a.m.
5 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone. I apologise for the delay.
6 Before we begin today, there's one thing I would like to deal
7 with in private session. Could we go into private session briefly.
8 [Private session]
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
4 That said, we'll bring in the witness.
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, Mr. Krajisnik.
7 THE WITNESS: Good morning. Thank you.
8 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
9 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Excellencies. Good
11 morning to all.
12 WITNESS: MOMCILO KRAJISNIK [Resumed]
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]
15 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Speaker.
16 A. Good morning.
17 Q. Yesterday we broke off when we were discussing document D1934.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] so could we call up page 27. I
19 don't know whether the entire transcript has been admitted or only the
20 pages that were displayed earlier on.
21 JUDGE KWON: I think we admitted it in its entirety, unless I'm
22 mistaken. We'll see.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Speaker, please take a look at the penultimate question. A
1 viewer from Pale is asking why Karadzic will not order an attack on
2 Sarajevo as 50.000 Serbs live there and everyone knows it could be done
3 at three days. And then my answer is:
4 "We are trying not to defeat our opponents because we don't want
5 to defeat them, as it is difficult to negotiate with the defeated."
6 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. E-court says only two pages were
7 admitted. If parties could take a look.
8 Please continue.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. So what it says here is that we do not want to defeat them and so
11 on and so forth. How does this fit into your own experience, or rather,
12 your own knowledge regarding our general position vis-à-vis our
14 A. This is precisely an example of what you advocated as president
15 of Republika Srpska most often, but that was the policy of the political
16 leadership of Republika Srpska then.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Next page, please.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. This last answer here, the question was whether I feel cheated
21 because we released everyone from Manjaca, 5.000 of them, whereas they
22 did not release anyone. And I'm saying that there is a village, an
23 entire village, near Duvno or Livno -- actually, both Livno and Duvno
24 that was turned into a camp. Can you tell the Trial Chamber how we kept
25 our promises and honoured our obligations to release prisoners and how
1 the other side did that?
2 A. In relation to prisoners, we always insisted on releasing all
3 prisoners on the basis of all for all. And in situations when we talked
4 to the other sides in the presence of the international community or
5 without them, we insisted that prisoners be released. And as a matter of
6 fact, that no one should even be prosecuted, that that should be left for
7 the period after the war, because very often that was the reason why some
8 people were kept in prison. And ultimately it was established that
9 perhaps it only had to do with participation.
10 I very often, on behalf of Republika Srpska, took part in talks
11 that had to do with prisoners. I was helping from the Serb side and from
12 the Muslim side it was Mr. Silajdzic most often, so that the two
13 commissions could resolve some matters of dispute so that prisoners could
14 be released. We insisted then - I as the representative of
15 Republika Srpska - and that was also accepted by Mr. Silajdzic, that
16 prisoners should be released because the very fact that they were kept in
17 prison allowed persons who were not under control to do something bad to
18 the people in prison. I was supported by the entire political
19 leadership, especially yourself, Mr. President, so I could persist in
20 that. But Mr. Silajdzic, in spite of all the efforts he made - and that
21 was obvious - because people at lower levels, especially the chairman of
22 his commission, always disputed that.
23 So let me round this off by saying that we always wanted to have
24 prisoners released as soon as possible everywhere.
25 The example that you gave here, when citizens were objecting and
1 holding this against you, quite simply on the basis of the agreement
2 reached with Mr. Sommaruga, you released all prisoners from prisons and
3 there were many prisoners left on the other side. There was hardly any
4 reciprocity attained, and then citizens criticised you personally and the
5 political leadership for having done that. And you said we have to give
6 a good example and we have to strive for having our people released from
7 prison or from isolation, which is quite similar. This is an example of
8 an entire village that was dealt with in such a bad way.
9 Q. Thank you. Now I'm going to deal with 73 -- actually, this is
10 new page numbering. Yesterday you were asked about Motika, Oganj, and
11 number 250. Can you tell us briefly who Motika is --
12 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
13 I wonder whether parties have checked the pages that have been
14 tendered with respect to this interview?
15 MR. ROBINSON: Actually, Mr. President, I was -- sent a message
16 to the Registrar because I can't see the notes on e-court. I can only
17 see the document. It doesn't -- mine --
18 JUDGE KWON: You have to go to the original. So I would like you
19 to sort it out during the course of today.
20 MR. ROBINSON: Okay.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I would like to suggest that
23 27 and 28 at least be added if we're not going to admit the entire
25 JUDGE KWON: That will be done at least. Please continue.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Can you say briefly why it was that you asked Motika about these
3 weapons? What was Motika then?
4 A. Mr. Milorad Motika at the time was the director of Pretis that
5 dealt with the manufacturing of certain equipment, but also the
6 manufacture of shells, that is to say, combat equipment.
7 Now, why did I ask him that? I tried to explain that yesterday.
8 I was an MP from the area of Sarajevo. Pretis, the company where
9 Mr. Motika worked, was in the area of Sarajevo. It was on the very edge
10 of the front line itself. So I was personally interested in this. My
11 family was there. My father, mother, brother, my family, my neighbours.
12 I knew all the people from that area.
13 Since - how do I put this? - since I was in the top echelons of
14 power of Republika Srpska, people came and spoke to me as friends and
15 asked me to try to help, to call someone so that this area could be
16 protected. Before this conversation - and that was towards the end of
17 the war - there was a major offensive. The civilian population was
18 attacked in the lowest part, Cekrcici, near Visoko, a lot of people were
19 killed because the Muslims wanted in that way, as they said, they wanted
20 to link-up their forces from the city and Visoko, and thus eliminate Serb
21 Sarajevo. Of course, since that is my hometown and -- I called him
22 asking him to help. I asked him for the same thing that my friends and
23 the presidents of the municipalities from there asked me.
24 Q. [No interpretation]
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not hear
1 Mr. Karadzic.
2 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, because of overlapping, the
3 interpreters couldn't hear you. But before you repeat your question,
4 what was the exhibit number or 65 ter number where Motika appears?
5 Probably it's one of the intercepts.
6 Mr. Tieger or Mr. Karadzic?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that Mr. Tieger will be
8 readier to answer that.
9 JUDGE KWON: I was told it's P5653. Yes, please continue.
10 If you could repeat your last question.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Mr. Speaker, can you tell us, roughly speaking, how many barrels
14 does Orkan, Oganj, and Plamen have respectively? What is all of that?
15 A. As I said yesterday, I'm not very knowledgeable about that. I
16 saw this barrel as I was passing by once. I don't know how many barrels
17 it has. I think that Oganj has one. I don't know. I have to say that
18 I'm not qualified to give a precise answer to that. I heard from them
19 that that is a better thing than an ordinary shell and that's why I asked
21 Q. Thank you. Do you happen to know about multiple
22 rocket-launchers? Is the size expressed in kilogrammes or calibres?
23 A. I have to say that I'm not knowledgeable about that. I'm sorry.
24 Well, as a layperson I could perhaps say something, but no, I cannot say.
25 I think it's in calibres, if I can say that freely.
1 Q. Thank you. Yesterday you were asked on page 43839 to 841, you
2 were asked about Orasje, and there was this question put there about to
3 liberate and to gain. And then on page 43846 you said that it was a
4 question of securing the corridor. Can you tell us whether --
5 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I'm sorry to interrupt you. I was
6 reading the intercept where Motika appears.
7 Mr. Krajisnik, you just now said that: "... that is my hometown,
8 I called him asking him to help. I asked him for the same thing that my
9 friends and president of the municipalities from there asked me." Could
10 you tell us what it is that they asked for you -- asked you?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The presidents of municipalities,
12 there were ten municipalities in Serb Sarajevo -- no, sorry, Sarajevo.
13 One from Ilijas, one from Vogosca, and Rajlovac. These are three
14 municipalities that are closest to Visoko. Very often they would come to
15 see me, as an acquaintance, as a friend, and they asked me, "Can you call
16 someone to come help us?" Then I would either talk to them or try to
17 persuade them that it's not that terrible, or let's say, I tried to
18 pacify them psychologically. Very often the answer I got was:
19 Everything is fine when I'm up here with you, but when we go back, we see
20 that you told us something that was totally unfounded because I didn't
21 really have anything in my hands. It's not that I could do something so
22 I could at least call these people and say: Help these people defend
23 their homes. Make things easier for them.
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I can understand that you tried to pacify them,
25 but in this intercept you asked for some big retaliation, didn't you?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I explained that. I remember that
2 case very well, that was towards the end of the war. There was this big
3 attack from Visoko, and a lot of casualties on the Serb side. People
4 came and asked me to help them in order to prevent that. Perhaps it's
5 wrong to say "retaliation." It's retaliation towards soldiers, to
6 prevent them from advancing further towards Visoko, which is what they
7 wanted to do and to destroy the population. So my objective was to --
8 for them to find something so that they would forestall another attack
9 and a pogrom of the population. Perhaps the word "retaliation" was not
10 well chosen, but that was the objective.
11 JUDGE KWON: One of the dialogue -- one of the conversations you
12 had was -- reads like this:
13 "If it's possible, do you have an idea for us to use this
14 opportunity because it's very important to retaliate."
15 So were you suggesting at the time to use an air-bomb at the time
16 for the purpose of retaliation?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour. Well, you see
18 that not even today I don't know what 250 or 350 is. That's what he
19 mentioned, and I just told him that I'm conveying to him what the people
20 on the ground told me about the Oganj and the Plamen. That's all. Later
21 on we spoke in some kind of codes, but I wasn't paying much attention.
22 For example, 250 definitely did not refer to Oganj. It must have been
23 something else, an encryption term for something else. All I was
24 concerned about was whether he was able to help me or not.
25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
1 Back to you, Mr. Karadzic.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. In the vicinity of Orasje, were there any Croatian municipalities
5 that, due to the reasons of securing the corridor, we held throughout the
6 war and then eventually returned them to the Croats when the war ended?
7 A. Immediately the municipality of Odzak, which is neighbouring to
8 Orasje, we held it the whole time and they -- we returned it immediately.
9 Yesterday I was a bit confused by Mr. Tieger. Namely, you have seen the
10 map and what I was trying to say was that that was not a map -- actually,
11 there were two maps overlapping or superimposed on each other, and I
12 spoke about Orasje in terms of securing the corridor because, from this,
13 let's say, sandwiched area, people were saying that the Croatian forces
14 were constantly attacking. That was the reason. The reason was not to
15 conquer new territories because eventually we returned the territories
16 that we had been holding prior to that.
17 Q. Thank you. On page --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Karadzic please repeat again the
19 number of pages. It was too fast.
20 JUDGE KWON: Could you repeat.
21 THE ACCUSED: Page 43846, line 15 to 17.
22 "It was simply a question of securing the corridor, and then,
23 again in talks, these things would be resolved politically and not
24 through the military situation on the ground."
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. So how was the issue of Odzak resolved and settled, politically
2 or militarily?
3 A. Eventually a political settlement was reached. But I would like
4 to add one thing that you didn't ask me about. There was a permanent
5 danger of passing through the corridor. I myself went that way, and the
6 problem was always if you go by car, people would say: Press your foot
7 on the gas pedal because otherwise you might be shot from the other side
8 or from close proximity. There were even requests to expand the corridor
9 from 1.5 kilometres to, let's say, 3 kilometres for security reasons.
10 Now, as for the ultimate solution, it all depended on the negotiations,
11 and that is what happened at the end.
12 Q. Thank you. The day before yesterday, that was page 100 - I'm
13 sorry if I'm wrong - you were asked about the granting of autonomy to the
14 Muslims. How would Muslims would have reacted if we had taken Tuzla and
15 then offered them autonomy within Republika Srpska?
16 A. I believe that you can find a whole series of statements given by
17 people from Tuzla. Tuzla was the most Yugoslav-oriented city with a
18 Muslim majority. For example, had our army occupied Tuzla, I'm convinced
19 that that would be the first area where people would accept autonomy and
20 accept to remain in Republika Srpska just to preserve the town as it had
21 been before, Yugoslav-oriented rather than a fundamentalist one. They
22 would have preferred an autonomy to staying within the Federation.
23 Q. Thank you. Also, it was suggested that in a document of
24 General Milovanovic it is said that Karadzic had approved directive 4.
25 The Assembly and the Presidency, where were we physically in
1 November 1992? Were we detached and far away or were we in the town?
2 A. The Presidency and the Assembly in 1991?
3 Q. 1992.
4 A. Oh, I'm sorry, 1992. I cannot remember exactly. I think that we
5 were together for quite some time, and after that we were separated. But
6 I think that at that time we were all together. I cannot remember at the
8 Q. Thank you. Do you know if I had approved the directives that I
9 myself hadn't drafted?
10 A. Just with a slight reservation I can say that I'm not sure --
11 that I'm sure that you hadn't approved the directives that you yourselves
12 haven't drafted. Let's say that somebody might have said something on
13 the phone, but in principle, I believe that whatever you signed you had
14 approved; however, what you didn't sign, I don't believe that you
16 Q. Thank you. On page 93 of -- from day before yesterday, that is,
17 the 19th, it was suggested to you that the term "ciscenje" of the Drina
18 referred to ethnic cleansing. Do you recall what our message to the
19 population was, and do you recall in how many plans we accepted for them
20 to have their own territories and their eastern enclaves along the Drina?
21 A. I know for sure that the term "ciscenje" did not mean "ethnic
22 cleansing." That's a military term, and if I remember correctly, this
23 was sanctioned in one of the cases here. Our principle had always been
24 that for a population in a certain area should remain there. There were
25 several statements to that effect. I don't remember when you said that
1 publicly, but I saw documents to that effect. Whoever laid down their
2 arms and was not involved in combat with our army, whoever was loyal and
3 not creating any troubles, they would enjoy the equal rights as the
4 Serbian people. You being a Montenegrin, you often used to say that this
5 is not in the tradition of a Serbian soldier, of a Serbian people, to act
6 unfairly and to commit crimes against other ethnicities who are in the
7 minority and therefore helpless to defend themselves.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be shown
10 D119 in both versions. This cannot be that number. Well, now we have
11 it, yes.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. This is my proclamation dated the 20th of April, 1992. Do you
14 remember us sending this appeal to the Muslims, particularly their
16 A. I remember this proclamation because it was issued only a day or
17 two when I came to Pale. After that we had a platform that you publicly
18 announced which dealt with the same matters.
19 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 2 it is said --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot find the portion
21 that Mr. Karadzic is reading.
22 JUDGE KWON: Please identify the portions you are reading for the
23 benefit of the interpreters.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Second paragraph, third sentence,
25 fourth line in the Serbian. Let's read the whole paragraph.
1 "The fragmentation of Yugoslavia also led to the transformation
2 of Bosnia-Herzegovina into three units. A number of Muslims and Croats
3 is to live in the Serb Bosnia-Herzegovina and a number of Serbs is to
4 live in the Muslim and Croat Bosnia-Herzegovina. It may be you that is
5 to live in the Muslim or in the Serb Bosnia-Herzegovina. That will
6 depend on a political agreement, which is inevitable. For the time
7 being, you are in the Serb Bosnia-Herzegovina and you are to enjoy the
8 same rights as Serbs do. Many Muslim villages have laid down their arms
9 and are enjoying full protection of the Serb army and Serb state organs.
10 Since at issue is a religious war, we do not force them to fight on our
11 side ..." et cetera.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Mr. Speaker, can you please tell us how is this consistent with
14 our claims that our vision was to have a pure Serbian republic?
15 A. This proclamation that you read is consistent with the policy
16 that was being pursued. Let me remind you of the same words that you
17 uttered at the Assembly of 26 July 1992, as well as on other occasions.
18 The policy of the Serbian leadership was not to have a future Serb entity
19 cleansed. On the contrary, always, in all the maps and agreements, it is
20 said that we were in favour of the return of the population that had
21 departed, for everybody to enjoy the equal rights; whereas all those who
22 want to go voluntarily shall have the right to go. That was the point
23 because many Serbs from Sarajevo wanted to leave but were prevented from
24 doing that. We wanted to issue the freedom of movement and to provide
25 the protection for those who were determined to remain behind.
1 Q. Thank you. You mentioned the platform. Are you referring to the
2 platform of the 22nd of April, 1992?
3 A. Precisely so. I think that took place two days later, therefore
4 it bears this date.
5 Q. Thank you. Mr. Speaker, when we mentioned directive 4, are you
6 aware of directive 7? Knowing me as you do, do you believe that I would
7 have consciously approved any directive that would involve violations of
8 international humanitarian law?
9 A. I can claim that Mr. Karadzic would never consciously sign such a
10 directive because, in addition to that, there are a lot of statements and
11 obligations undertaken in which he was advocating completely different
12 things. You yourself and the Serbian side as a whole. I talked with
13 Mr. Miletic about this directive and he himself was surprised - and he
14 drafted it - that this mistake happened. He was in two minds whether
15 that was a mistake or whether that was an intentional deed --
16 MR. TIEGER: Excuse me.
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
18 MR. TIEGER: All right. Two matters. First of all, this didn't
19 arise in cross, that's obvious --
20 JUDGE KWON: But it's one of the directives.
21 MR. TIEGER: Right. But -- so I -- that's why I let it go, but
22 we can see that this is going now in a direction that was clearly -- that
23 is focused in a manner that doesn't implicate the nature of the
24 cross-examination. So the issue of directives generally, okay, but --
25 JUDGE KWON: But Miletic saying about this directive 7, if you
1 wish, we'll give you another opportunity to cross-examine this part.
2 Would that be fair, Mr. Tieger?
3 MR. TIEGER: As I say, I didn't let the general discussion go and
4 this was mentioned anyway at -- he raised it spontaneously in cross, but
5 I realise that it's sometimes necessary to rise in anticipation of where
6 we're headed, which is sometimes why I let leading questions go, like:
7 Are you referring to the platform of ...? But I just wanted to prevent a
8 large-scale effort to venture into areas not raised by cross.
9 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
10 Mr. Krajisnik, during the course of cross-examination you
11 responded to Mr. Tieger's question to the effect that General Miletic
12 himself was surprised by what he himself drafted. But you didn't refer
13 to directive 7. If my memory is correct, I think you mentioned
14 directive 4. But he -- so tell us exactly what Mr. Miletic told you at
15 the time.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since General Miletic was on the
17 same floor as I was and since in my case there are directive -- I don't
18 know if the number was mentioned --
19 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, same floor in the Detention Unit ?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, in the Detention Unit. His
21 cell was adjacent to mine. And since I had been asked about this
22 directive in my trial, but I don't know the number, where it was
23 indicated that the civilians needed to be cleansed or "ocisceni," I was
24 surprised and I reacted by saying that that was a crime and I said the
25 same in my testimony.
1 I asked him the following: I see that you are the author of this
2 directive and you signed it, and I told him how I reacted to it as a
3 witness. He responded by saying that he was surprised too. "I don't
4 know what this is all about, I think it has been misconstrued."
5 Now, I cannot convey to you his reaction verbatim, but I can tell
6 you that he was surprised to see something like that in the directive.
7 And that is what I mentioned this again yesterday or the day before
8 yesterday in response to Mr. Tieger's question.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes. As you know, we have many directives in the --
10 in this case. What directive were you talking about with Mr. -- with
11 General Miletic?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The directive where it is
13 said - and we mentioned yesterday - together with the army, the civilian
14 population should leave. That was the phrasing and the language. It was
15 mentioned yesterday, but I honestly don't know the number.
16 JUDGE KWON: So did General Miletic admit that he himself drafted
17 directive 4 and directive 7?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about the numbers. I
19 don't know the number of the directive, but the directive mentioned by
20 Mr. Tieger yesterday and the day before yesterday, where he quoted my
21 reaction to the directive, I said that a leading question was put to me.
22 It was later established that it was put to me by Judge Orie, that
23 leading question, and it was in relation to one of the directives. I
24 think -- I don't know myself, but I think it can easily be established
25 which one.
1 JUDGE KWON: I'll leave it at that.
2 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Mr. President, yesterday at page -- transcript page - and I'll
5 give you the number in a moment - you were told that our generals visited
6 with President Milosevic. Did you know and did we know, were we informed
7 of the fact that our generals went to visit President Milosevic outside
8 of our knowledge?
9 A. I didn't know. I can only say that I was surprised to see the
10 content of that conversation, if that conversation is indeed credible.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That was at transcript page --
13 JUDGE KWON: 43846.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. Thank you.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. In that conversation a suggestion is made as if you and I had
17 visited with President Milosevic the day before, allegedly simply so as
18 not to be in the company of generals. In the month of August, around the
19 negotiations surrounding the Dayton Accords, were we in contact with
20 President Milosevic of whatever kind that contact may be?
21 A. It's very difficult for me to set proper dates in that period.
22 What is clear is that for a long period of time, President Milosevic had
23 introduced some sort of an embargo, isolation at any rate, as if
24 sanctions had been imposed against us. I cannot really tell you when
25 this stopped and if that day or two before that date we were there. It's
1 very hard for me to say. I know this was the time when the Contact Group
2 plan was being discussed and when there was a large rift between
3 President Milosevic and our leadership.
4 Q. Thank you. Did we have more respect for him than he did for us
5 in view of those words that he uttered, referring to us?
6 A. I do think that we held him in much more esteem than he did us.
7 But I do have my doubts about these words supposedly uttered by
8 President Milosevic, although he was known to be speaking like this and
9 there were occasions when we simply weren't able to accept suggestions
10 coming from him. It is probable that Mr. Mladic added or emphasised
11 these words since he was also in -- on poor terms with us.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we call up 30861, a
14 65 ter document.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Were our associates aware of our views with regard to the
17 possible capture of Sarajevo or territories not belonging to us? Was
18 this a matter of general knowledge?
19 A. I do believe that they were aware of it, especially where
20 Sarajevo was concerned. Every president of municipality and citizens in
21 general knew that we did not want to seize Sarajevo. You can look at
22 various reports which even state that foreign officers wondered why the
23 Bosnian Serbs did not go on and capture Sarajevo with their army.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't think this is the proper
25 document. Can we have 30861, that's what I was asking for, 30861. Yes,
1 that's the 27th of July. This is a conversation between Momcilo Mandic
2 and one David. Can we look at page 3.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. We're looking at the bottom half. They're asking about how
5 this -- how the area can be reached. There is a route via Dobrinja, and
6 lastly it says:
7 "Those of our lot wanted to cleanse or mop-up Dobrinja, however,
8 Karadzic would not let them go ahead ..."
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page, both
10 versions -- no, sorry. [In English] No, no, this is number one. English
11 may stay.
12 [Interpretation] Right. Perhaps we should have the next page in
13 English. Mandic said that those from Krajina offered to deploy two
14 brigades to ociste, cleanse or mop-up, Sarajevo. However, Radovan would
15 not let them go ahead with that.
16 So can we have the next page again. The English version is fine.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. The third line:
19 "They broke through the corridor and want to come to Sarajevo to
20 ociste, mop-up or cleanse it, all the way down there to Herzegovina.
21 However, Krajisnik does not let them ..." and what is missing here is
22 Radovan as well, because was this not your position as well as mine when
23 it came to Sarajevo?
24 A. What the two interlocutors here said is entirely accurate. I
25 don't know, well, about the mention of names here; however, it was your
1 position and that of the entire leadership not to press against Sarajevo
2 militarily because that would result in great casualties and would be
3 detrimental for Republika Srpska, because Sarajevo was a majority Muslim
4 city and we wanted only areas of Sarajevo -- those that were ethnically
5 populated by the Serbs to remain under Serb control.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted,
9 JUDGE KWON: We'll mark it for identification.
10 THE REGISTRAR: It receives MFI D4058, Your Honours.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. You were asked about the party meeting and the Assembly session
14 which took place on the 21st of December, whereas the party meeting took
15 place on the 19th or the 20th. Though you were not occupied with the
16 dealings of the party, do you know what the reason was for this meeting
17 to be - and I mean the party meeting - to be scheduled as early as it
19 MR. TIEGER: [Previous translation continues]...
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
21 MR. TIEGER: I believe that's a misstatement. I think the
22 witness himself said the meeting took place on the 20th. I don't know
23 why -- well, I know why Dr. Karadzic is engaged in this continuing
24 effort, but the witness -- this is a mis-characterisation of the
25 witness's testimony.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Please continue.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No matter.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. The question remains. Do you know why the party meeting was
5 scheduled as it was prior to the Assembly meeting without you being
6 informed of it?
7 A. Alarming news came in of the Muslim side wanting to achieve the
8 independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina as soon as possible and contrary to
9 the will of the Serbian people. That's why an urgent meeting was called
10 which was followed by activities, and the subsequent developments showed
11 that our apprehension was justified. It was followed by the plebiscite
12 decision and other very important decisions.
13 Let me just make a remark there. I said that the club of
14 deputies meeting took place on the 20th November. I do not remember if
15 there was a meeting the day before or not. I cannot recall. At any
16 rate, before the Assembly session on the 20th there was a meeting of the
17 club of deputies with other activists coming in from the field.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 32042, a 65 ter
19 document shown to the witness, please.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. While we're waiting for the document, can you tell the Chamber
22 who is Dr. Dragan Djokanovic?
23 A. Dr. Dragan Djokanovic is the president of a small political party
24 called the Party of the Federalists.
25 Q. Thank you. This is an intercept, I'm not sure if it's been
1 translated, where Dr. Djokanovic telephoned me and said they are calling
2 on the republics to declare independence --
3 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Do we not have English version?
4 THE ACCUSED: There should be.
5 JUDGE KWON: We are relying on Mr. Reid.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Meanwhile I can read this out for you. Mr. Djokanovic telephoned
8 me in the capacity of the leader of another political party and said that
9 the European community was calling on the other republics to declare
10 independence. The discussion, or rather, this conversation took place on
11 the 17th of December and that they should send the appropriate documents
12 to the European community by the 23rd so that the European community
13 could recognise them by the 15th of January.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the bottom part of the
15 document. Please, can we scroll down.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. And do you agree with me that Mr. Djokanovic suggested that major
18 Bosnia-Herzegovina party should meet in Sarajevo, and he says we can
19 organise a meeting at Holiday Inn and put up strong resistance to this
20 call for the declaration of --
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And can we turn to the next page.
22 [No interpretation].
23 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. I'm not sure we're hearing
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter apologises.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. The declaration of independence, so I say: Very well, fine. And
3 then Djokanovic says: What do you think? I wanted to do this with
4 you ...
5 JUDGE KWON: Please continue.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Dr. Djokanovic says: I wanted to do this with you, and I believe
8 that this had to be done as urgently as possible and it should be done as
9 soon as possible in view of the cold weather, et cetera.
10 And further down he says: For the day after tomorrow at 12.00,
11 that's what I say.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page. [In
13 English] Next page.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. In the middle of the page it reads: Well, they said that they
16 would recognise this, but it would come into full effect after the
17 15th of January.
18 Does the fact that this meeting was called by a different party
19 account for the fact that you were not invited to the meeting?
20 A. This particular example, as do others, shows that party
21 activities ran alongside and independently of the Assembly activities.
22 So I wasn't aware of what was going on here with a different party that
23 shared the same concern of the SDS.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted,
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll mark it for identification.
3 THE REGISTRAR: D4059, Your Honours.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. According to what you know of this, was this meeting in fact held
7 at Holiday Inn and what do you know of it if so?
8 A. The multi-party meeting?
9 Q. The SDS plenary which was also attended by Djokanovic.
10 A. Yes, I do recall attending the meeting. I know that among those
11 present were deputies and SDS members, but it is quite possible that
12 there was several meetings running in parallel before the Assembly.
13 However, I did attend this particular meeting where this concern was
15 Q. Thank you. You said that our strategic objectives took account
16 of the Lisbon Agreement and our agreement with the Croats at Graz.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D --
18 THE INTERPRETER: Can the accused please repeat the number,
20 JUDGE KWON: Please repeat the number, Mr. Karadzic.
21 THE ACCUSED: 1D9503.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Mr. President, can you tell us, the paper "Novi Vjesnik," who
24 does it belong to and where was it published?
25 A. "Novi Vjesnik" is a Croatian newspaper. I don't know where
1 exactly it was published, probably in Zagreb.
2 THE ACCUSED: Could the next page be exposed on the other part of
3 the screen because it's English version. Yeah. Next page in English,
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Mr. President, Boban says down there: The agreement as
7 recommended by the European community.
8 Does this accord with your knowledge, indicating that this did
9 not amount to any violation of the conference?
10 A. I said in my testimony here that when the conference ended, and I
11 think it was held in Brussels, it was at the proposal of Mr. Cutileiro.
12 Since the conference was not fruitful, he said that you can try and
13 resolve certain problems bilaterally, and thus help find a solution to
14 this problem. The Muslims did not want any part in this. We embarked on
15 these negotiations bilaterally with the Croats, and on our way back from
16 the conference stopped at Graz. And I think it was helpful.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the penultimate page in
18 English, please.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. What you said about the recommendation of the European community,
21 that's where it is.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this document please be
23 admitted ?
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll admit it.
25 THE REGISTRAR: It's D4060, Your Honours.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we briefly have 1D9504, just
2 to have it identified because the English version of the agreement has
3 been admitted under this previous number. So let's put up the Serbian
4 version as well.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Do you recognise this document? Is it the same document from
8 A. Yes, it's the same document. I think that it was even archived
9 in my case.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can it please be admitted either
12 under a new number or along with the previous one.
13 JUDGE KWON: Previous one being the news clipping? We'll admit
14 this separately.
15 THE REGISTRAR: D4061, Your Honours.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. During the cross-examination, the Prosecution focused on the
18 document called paper A and paper B to quite a degree. And then
19 Mr. Vjestica, an MP and a high official was quoted as saying at an
20 Assembly session that an operations plan should be adopted. Could you
21 tell us why Vjestica would be asking for an operational plan if paper A
22 and paper B were an official and binding plan?
23 A. That precisely says that, Vjestica, in a municipality where the
24 Serbs were a minority, where they were threatened, there were, say,
25 10.000 Serbs on one side of the Una river, they were worried, he was
1 worried, and he asked for an operations plan for defending this
2 threatened Serb population. So documents A and B, I repeat once again,
3 that document did not have any importance in the implementation of any
4 decision of ours. I never felt that at least. Perhaps someone just
5 mentioned that in passing, but in practice I never felt any significance
6 of it.
7 Q. Thank you. Mr. Speaker, your Trial Chamber in the first-instance
8 judgement, how did they treat paper A and paper B and the six strategic
10 A. I think precisely as I have interpreted it just now. It did not
11 attach any importance to the six strategic objectives or to documents A
12 and B, as I read it. You can read it too and see.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 24274, could it please be
15 shown and then page 354. Paragraph 995 of the judgement. Page 354. I
16 don't know which page it is in Serbian for paragraph 995.
17 [In English] "It would be incorrect to place these goals on a
18 pedestal, as the Prosecution does, for in the final analysis they are
19 anodyne statements, serving as official state policy and even qualifying
20 for publication in the Bosnian Serb Republic's Official Gazette ..."
21 And few lines later:
22 "An anachronistic reading of the May goals is not only
23 inadvisable, it misses the point, just as an anachronistic reading of the
24 December Instructions misses the point. The instructions and the goals
25 lacked substance and utility ..."
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
2 MR. TIEGER: Is it really helpful -- I mean, to the extent we are
3 going to engage in this exercise, is it really helpful to point out the
4 section and then skip over the very sentence which says that insidious
5 hidden meanings can be found in the context and the events that follow.
6 I mean, what kind of colloquy will result from that omission?
7 MR. ROBINSON: Actually Mr. Tieger didn't read that right. It
9 "If one is inclined to find ... insidious" --
10 JUDGE KWON: Let's leave it. We have the document in front of
12 What is the question, Mr. Karadzic?
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Mr. Speaker, this position taken in the final judgement, was it
15 actually dismissed by the Appeals Chamber?
16 A. My assertion is no, but you can see easily from the appeals
17 judgement that there is no qualification to the opposite.
18 Q. Thank you. You were asked, Mr. Speaker, it was suggested that
19 you were interested in military matters, that you talked to generals.
20 Whose generals were they?
21 A. Well, what was shown in my case and what was explained in the
22 judgement, I was interested in commanders at local level, municipal
23 level, or even lower level, from the Army of Republika Srpska and the
24 police. I wanted to express my interest in what was going on in the area
25 where my parents lived, where my neighbours and friends lived, after all
1 where my own house was.
2 Q. Thank you. Was -- were you a member of the Supreme Command and
3 what kind of a body was that?
4 A. I was a member of the Supreme Command. It was an advisory body
5 to the Presidency, or rather, the president of the republic as the
6 supreme commander.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] P3419 [as interpreted], could that
9 please be displayed. 3149. Page 7 in Serbian. Then it must be number 8
10 in Serbian. That's not it. 05542154 is the ERN number of that page.
11 The English is fine but not the Serbian, so could we have page 7. The
12 typewritten page in Serbian, please. I don't know what these papers are.
13 They're not part of this document.
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I'm seeing a different document in my e-court.
15 Oh, it should be Exhibit 3149. I'm not sure.
16 THE ACCUSED: Exactly.
17 JUDGE KWON: But you said 3419. Yes, P3149.
18 THE ACCUSED: Line 19, I said 3149.
19 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
20 THE ACCUSED: Yeah, that's first -- then eighth page in Serbian
21 from this cover page. And please, some in English -- that is 9 in
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Mr. Speaker, I'm going to read what you said, it's at the bottom
25 of the page.
1 "Mr. Krajisnik: I was never more useless than here. I have not
2 been consulted as a member of the Supreme Command about a single
3 promotion or about a single decoration or about a single action, nor do I
4 know and you have not submitted reports except to President Karadzic, so
5 we are in the same ..."
6 How does this correspond to your experience in terms of your work
7 in the Supreme Command and your influence over military developments?
8 A. These words confirm what I said throughout my testimony. This is
9 consistent with the role that I had in the Supreme Command and my
10 position vis-à-vis military operations.
11 Q. Thank you. Do you know what the attitude was of the military
12 commands towards the influence of civilian authorities over command and
13 control of the army?
14 A. The most adequate word in the Serbian language would be
15 "pristili se," that means that they strongly resisted any kind of
16 influence at local levels and further up.
17 Q. From that point of view, what was the position of the ministers
18 of defence?
19 A. They were marginalised and they did not have any kind of
20 influence. That was one of the reasons why Mr. Subotic resigned and that
21 can be seen from his testimony in my trial and I believe that happened
22 here, too, if he made a statement.
23 Q. Thank you. Dispute that, Mr. Speaker, did we have any knowledge
24 and, according to that knowledge, did our army commit crimes? What was
25 the attitude of our commanders towards crimes, rapes, and so on?
1 A. I can say from Mladic onwards, including all the other officers I
2 knew, but I shall focus on Mladic. When General Mladic came into contact
3 with us, anyway with me specifically, I always heard him being strongly
4 opposed to the commission of any crime, especially as far as
5 paramilitaries are concerned, that is to say, formations that were not
6 under control. He always said criminals can never establish a state. I
7 have to say that for the sake of the truth. For a while we did have this
8 rift between us and Mr. Mladic, but I have to say that.
9 Q. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have no further questions -- well, I
10 do have questions, but I haven't got the time needed for that. Thank
11 you, once again.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon. Can I just show
13 one more document, 65 ter 1368?
14 Mr. President --
15 JUDGE KWON: I wanted to make clear, the Chamber never has
16 restricted your time to examine the witness. Please continue.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. However, I'm making an
18 effort to bring in as many witnesses as possible, so it's because of
19 that, Excellency. It's not an objection addressed to you, no. I'm
20 afraid that this is not the document. 65 ter 13468.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. While we're waiting, Mr. Speaker, did you have this record in
23 your own trial, this record of the meeting of the Supreme Command?
24 A. A few days ago during proofing, I saw this document for the first
25 time or at least I do not remember having seen it. I would have
1 remembered this observation had I seen this.
2 Q. Thank you. Please focus on this, the 28th of March, 1995.
3 General Mladic is asking the minister not to interfere with promotions,
4 and he's asking me to annul the minister's decision. How does this fit
5 into what you said a moment ago?
6 A. This fully reflects the relationship between the minister of
7 defence and Mr. Mladic. Mr. Mladic, as a matter of fact, even received
8 oral consent. The minister transferred the few powers he did have to
9 him. He didn't want the minister to interfere in any way, to have any
10 kind of influence over the military.
11 Q. Thank you. I'm done. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, for
12 having come to testify on this holiday.
13 JUDGE KWON: I take it you are tendering this document, the final
14 one --
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
16 JUDGE KWON: We'll receive it.
17 THE REGISTRAR: D4062, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger.
19 MR. TIEGER: Two quick matters arise for re-direct,
20 Mr. President, very brief. I'm pretty confident they can be finished in
21 five minutes, if not less. But if you want to break, that's fine too.
22 JUDGE KWON: Given the circumstances we'll continue -- but on
23 what issues?
24 MR. TIEGER: The first issue is a matter that was raised -- it
25 concerns the June 10th meeting of -- it was raised yesterday, the
1 June 10th meeting of the Presidency and the government. Mr. Krajisnik
2 said -- addressed that in cross-examination and addressed it in a
3 different manner which -- he addressed it in a way so that I didn't go to
4 the -- to his testimony, and then addressed it in a different way in his
5 re-direct examination. So I just want to present the transcript.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please proceed.
8 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger:
10 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, at pages 43925 through 26 yesterday during your
11 cross-examination, it was put to you that the meeting of the government
12 preceded the meeting of the Presidency on June 10th, and then Mr. Djeric
13 was tasked by the Presidency to submit a report on prisoners. And you
14 said at line 9:
15 "Yes, that's it."
16 And then when Mr. Karadzic addressed the issue with you at 43936
17 you said:
18 "And then in the afternoon the government looked at these
19 problems on its own perhaps."
20 So I wanted to confirm what you said in your own case in 2006,
21 which is P -- found at 65 ter 25522 at page 25754. I know those are a
22 lot of numbers. So I'll repeat the page --
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't think that this has stemmed
24 from the re-direct. I really don't think so.
25 MR. TIEGER: I'll say it again. The witness said that he -- that
1 the government was tasked by the Presidency. Then in re-direct he
2 resiled from that and said: Well, it looks like the government did it on
3 its own. So I want to go back to what he said in 2006. It's very
4 directly arising from the re-direct.
5 JUDGE KWON: And the Chamber allowed the re-cross-examination.
6 MR. TIEGER: And the page number was 25754. If you can actually
7 start at 25753 on the very bottom so we can see where we are.
8 "These are the minutes from the 25th government session held the
9 same day date, chaired by Mr. Djeric ..." and then we move to the next
11 Q. And then the question at line 11:
12 "Now, Mr. Krajisnik, that was Mr. Djeric's immediate response to
13 the assignment he had received at the session of the Presidency the same
14 day; correct?"
15 Then you started saying, well:
16 [As read] "It could be the other way around, that what he said
17 could -- I don't know which session ... it could be, you're really
18 right -- you're really right, this consultative meeting could have been
19 in the morning and this session ... yes, you are right. He was given
20 that task and he entrusted it to the Ministry of Justice."
21 MR. TIEGER: So I just want to tender that page so there's no
22 misunderstanding about that issue.
23 JUDGE KWON: You're not asking any question to the witness?
24 MR. TIEGER:
25 Q. Well, Mr. Krajisnik, that is, in fact, an accurate reflection of
1 what you said in 2006 when that issue was presented to you in your own
2 trial; correct?
3 A. I have to say that I don't understand the question, but I'll try
4 to interpret it. There were two --
5 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, hold on --
6 A. -- sessions --
7 Q. -- I'm asking you -- I'm asking you if that is an accurate
8 reflection of what you said -- what you testified to in your own case in
9 2006. That's the question.
10 A. Well, I don't remember these very words. I can tell you today
11 what I exactly think and then it's up to you to decide. I don't remember
12 what I said in 2006. I can explain to you today how it was and what I
13 know about it. I don't know what happened in 2006. Maybe there's a
14 mistake in the transcript. I can tell you now what happened.
15 Q. You testified to it on direct -- on cross, you testified to it on
16 re-direct. I am putting this document to you. If you don't remember it,
17 then I want to tender the document for impeachment.
18 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber will allow the witness to continue.
19 Yes, please continue, Mr. Krajisnik.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, both then and now I
21 remember that on the same day, the 10th of June, there were two meetings.
22 One was an extended meeting of all the leaders which was called at the
23 time the National Security Council or whatever. Mr. Djeric was there,
24 the prime minister. In the meeting of that meeting [as interpreted]
25 which I saw subsequently, there's a question of prisoners raised and the
1 need to investigate that, what the conditions were, et cetera. Later on
2 I know that the government met, and I interpreted what was stated there.
3 What Mr. Djeric was given, what he was briefed about autonomously in that
4 meeting without our presence, he entrusted the minister to investigate
5 the matter and that is the entire statement that I can make. I don't
6 know any other details. I attended the first meeting, whereas I wasn't
7 present at the government meeting.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Why shouldn't we take a look at
9 P --
10 JUDGE KWON: No, just a second. It's not for you at this time to
12 Are you done, Mr. --
13 MR. TIEGER: With that. And I just had one more contextual
14 matter to raise, which is a matter of 30 seconds, I think. Yes, I -- so
15 I tender that --
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
17 MR. TIEGER: -- to be added.
18 JUDGE KWON: We'll add those two pages to the exhibit.
19 In the meantime, have the parties sorted out the -- with respect
20 to the interview? Is it safe if we add only those two pages, pages 27
21 and 28?
22 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, although we would ask that the
23 entire interview be admitted.
24 JUDGE KWON: No, we'll add those two pages.
25 MR. TIEGER: The only contextual issue I wanted to raise then,
1 Mr. President, was with regard to 65 ter 30861, the intercepted
2 conversation between Mandic and David or David. At lines -- at page 19
3 through 20 of this transcript, the accused asked Mr. Krajisnik:
4 "It states those of our lot wanting to cleanse or mop-up
5 Dobrinja, however, Karadzic would not allow them to go ahead ..."
6 There is an ellipsis in the intercept itself, and it goes on, the
7 speaker goes on to say:
8 "There is no need any longer."
9 So in case the document doesn't ultimately get into evidence, I
10 wanted the context to be clearer on the record.
11 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
12 Yes, Mr. Robinson, do you have any observation?
13 MR. ROBINSON: I do. I don't understand how Mr. Tieger can make
14 a speech without the -- asking a question to the witness as part of the
15 re-examination. That means he asks a question to the witness --
16 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Shall we upload that part, MFI D4058.
17 Mr. Krajisnik, is it next page in the B/C/S?
18 MR. TIEGER: I think it might still be page 3 -- it's page 3 in
19 the English. It's presumably --
20 JUDGE KWON: No, it's -- I think the English page is correct.
21 MR. TIEGER: Yes, English page is correct. I think we're still
22 on the cover page for the -- the first page for the B/C/S, so it needs
23 that -- it needs to be moved. And one more page. Okay.
24 Q. Mr. Krajisnik, you see that portion of the intercept where
25 Mr. Mandic refers to "ociste," and that's the portion that Mr. Karadzic
1 asked you the insistence on "'ociste' Dobrinja, however, Karadzic does
2 not let them." And is it correct he continues with Mandic saying before
3 he concludes what he's saying: "He doesn't want any more ... there is no
4 need any longer"?
5 THE ACCUSED: Fourth line in Serbian for the interpreters.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But I need to see the next page,
8 MR. TIEGER:
9 Q. You mean the previous page?
10 A. No, no, the next one should refer to what you're asking me about.
11 Just a moment, please. I can't see where it says what Mandic said.
12 Perhaps you can direct me with the assistance of the interpreters. I
13 can't find it. Oh, it seems that it must be the previous page. I'm
14 sorry, my mistake.
15 Q. So I think the first portion begins on the previous page and then
16 it continues on to this page, if I'm not mistaken.
17 A. Well, it says "there's no need any longer," this is completely
18 out of context. I don't know what he was referring to --
19 Q. Just turn to --
20 A. -- because David says --
21 Q. We'll turn to the previous page. Let me direct you, please.
22 MR. TIEGER: Could we go to the previous page, page 3 in B/C/S,
23 the bottom.
24 "Ovi su nasi ..." you see that? That's the part that
25 Dr. Karadzic directed your attention to? And then continue on to the
1 next page?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So that's what he showed you: "Our guys insisted to 'ociste,'"
4 and then it continue -- Mandic continues: "He doesn't want any more ...
5 there is no need any longer." I just wanted to confirm that that's what
6 the -- what was stated in the intercept at the portion that Mr. Karadzic
7 directed your attention to.
8 A. I don't know what it means. All I can do is to confirm that it's
9 written here, "there's no need any longer," but I really cannot
10 understand what he wanted to say, Mandic. I mean, he says it's the end
11 of Alija and what -- what does it have to do with Dobrinja. I don't
12 understand it.
13 Q. Okay. Thank you for that confirmation.
14 THE ACCUSED: One clarification for this, Excellencies.
15 JUDGE KWON: About this intercept? Yes.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the previous page.
17 Further Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
18 Q. [Interpretation] Please take a look at towards the bottom where
19 Mandic says:
20 "There is a shorter route. They opened the road. Fine. They're
21 doing it and working and I think that it will soon pass through
22 Dobrinja ..."
23 Does this help you to understand that -- what was said later:
24 "There was no need for that any longer"?
25 A. Is that a question for me? Well, I could understand that in that
2 Q. Thank you.
3 THE ACCUSED: "There is a shortcut" --
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we can see it.
5 Well, unless my colleagues have a question for you, that
6 concludes your evidence, Mr. Krajisnik. On behalf of the Chamber, I'd
7 like to thank you for your coming to The Hague to give it again. You are
8 free to go.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to thank you once
10 again with my review for proceedings.
11 JUDGE KWON: We'll rise all together.
12 Given the circumstances, we'll adjourn for the week. But I take
13 it you will continue to do your utmost not to -- or to spend the time as
14 efficiently as possible. And we'll resume on Tuesday next week.
15 The hearing is adjourned.
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.46 a.m.,
17 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 26th day of
18 November, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.