1 Thursday, 5 December 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone. Yes, good morning,
7 Mr. Harvey.
8 MR. HARVEY: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours. May I
9 introduce Mr. Ajie Buhron, who is from Indonesia, has been with my team
10 since March of this year, and holds a masters in international law from
11 the University of Groningen. Thank you.
12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Harvey.
13 Yes, Mr. Zec, please continue.
14 MR. ZEC: Good morning, Your Honours, everyone.
15 WITNESS: MIKAN DAVIDOVIC [Resumed]
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 Cross-examination by Mr. Zec: [Continued]
18 Q. Good morning, Mr. Davidovic.
19 A. Good morning.
20 Q. Yesterday, we talked about the fear that caused many non-Serbs to
21 leave their homes. Before I play that radio broadcast, let me ask you
22 about events in the neighbourhood of Sanski Most called Mahala. There is
23 evidence before this Chamber that in late May 1992, Serb soldiers forced
24 Mahala residents to gather at the training ground and then the area was
25 shelled and non-Serb property was destroyed, following which thousands of
1 unarmed non-Serbs were detained and many were killed. Do you recall this
2 event, Mr. Davidovic?
3 A. No. During that period of time, I was not in the area, and that
4 information is not accessible to me, and my statement probably would not
5 be that reliable. It would actually be like that of all the citizens who
6 live there.
7 Q. Okay. Let's then hear the broadcast now.
8 MR. ZEC: This is P00725, and we have provided the transcripts to
9 the interpreters so this can be translated.
10 [Audio-clip played]
11 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "... all the struggle and
12 retaliation will be in vain. You're not capable of standing up to the
13 forces of the army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the
14 statement of the Serbian Armed Forces Command states. It adds, your
15 resistance will force us to destroy and devastate your villages, which
16 means that you will not be able to live with us in these territories. If
17 you do want to go on living in these territories, accept cooperation,
18 hand over all the weapons and military equipment and surrender to the
19 Serbian authorities all the extremists who force you to fight. As long
20 as one of you has a weapon, you risk the destruction of your houses and
21 families ... weapons and hand them over to the public security station or
22 the Crisis Staff. The roads are free, fire won't be opened until the
23 deadline. The following villages have to hand over their" --
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Maybe I missed something but could
25 we know what the date is?
1 MR. ZEC: I said that yesterday. It's late May. It's most
2 probably 27 May 1992. And as is going to be clear in this clip, it's
3 after the events in Mahala and one of the -- there is also on this same
4 page one reference that: Today we will do the same as we did in Mahala.
5 So that's the date.
6 Q. So this was the reality, Mr. Davidovic. We heard in this
7 official statements words "as long as one of you has a weapon, you risk
8 the destruction of your houses and families." And the destruction of
9 Mahala was used as one example and the threat to non-Serbs as to what
10 awaited them. This threat was effective and many non-Serbs left; right?
11 A. Well, you see, as far as this radio clip is concerned, if I can
12 call it that, I hardly listened to the radio then, as is the case today.
13 I mostly read newspapers and watch TV. But never mind, I can still give
14 my comment on the basis of what I heard just now.
15 In view of all of, this you should probably put that question to
16 the citizens of the other ethnicity, what their attitude was to what they
17 had heard. From my point of view, I said in my statement that this fear
18 of war was such that it compelled, inter alia, the population to leave,
19 economic conditions and so on and so forth. In view of what happened in
20 1941, what happened in Sanski Most then, then there was fear of that,
21 also what happened in 1995 in Sanski Most. I mean I really cannot give
22 my comments with regard to how this affected citizens of the other
23 ethnicity. I could only take action once they submitted requests to
24 leave. This was probably under the authority of other organs.
25 Q. And to be clear, the translation stopped at one point because
1 Mr. Karadzic interrupted, and at the end of this clip I wanted to play,
2 it says: "We will be forced to act as we did with Mahala." So this was
3 clear threat, knowing what happened in Mahala, that people would be
4 feared of this; right?
5 A. Well, I don't know about that part. I'm saying that I worked at
6 the end of 1993. That is to say, when the situation calmed down,
7 I started working at the municipal administration, and I mean, there were
8 these requests that were submitted then, when there were no more war
9 operations in that period.
10 Q. Okay. Then let's be clear. Yesterday, we talked about your role
11 in the commission for relocation of population. You said that you were
12 appointed to this commission towards the end of 1993 and before that you
13 did not perform any function. That's what you said also now. And this
14 is also at transcript page 44509, 44510. So this is your evidence before
15 this Court; right?
16 A. Well, don't hold me on that, the date. The end of 1992,
17 beginning of 1993, that part really, but I said after all of these war
18 developments were over, and when the authorities of Sanski Most started
19 functioning, I was a civil servant then, as I am now, and I received
20 instructions from the Executive Board as the legitimate organ of
21 government in that period of time.
22 Q. Mr. Davidovic, I'm trying to be clear here. I'm talking about
23 commission for relocation of population. I asked you yesterday many
24 questions about that and you told me were you in the commission as of end
25 of 1993. So that's the date that you got at the commission and you were
1 dealing with these issues from that period; right?
2 A. There were two commissions.
3 Q. I'm talking about you and your role. You got on the commission
4 late 1993. That's what you based your knowledge about these events;
6 A. The commission at the end of 1993, I think it was the commission
7 that had to do with departures through the Republic of Croatia, and
8 I think that the end of 1992, beginning of 1993, there was this other
9 commission, and I did not play a very active part in that.
10 Q. And your active part was in late 1993?
11 A. Well, as the representative of the centre for social welfare, in
12 the work of these commissions.
13 Q. And when you talk about the work of the commission in
14 paragraph 20 of your statement, this relates to the period when you were
15 at the commission, late 1993 and after; right?
16 A. That's right, I think.
17 Q. When you say that the commission assisted people to move out by
18 providing logistics such as transport, arranging contacts, documents, you
19 were talking about the late 1993 and after; correct? That's your
20 evidence before this Court.
21 A. That is probably right. That's what it says. That's what's
22 written there.
23 Q. When you say that -- that you and the commission assisted
24 citizens who wished to leave and who had expressed a wish to leave, you
25 were referring to the period after late 1993; right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And when you say that nobody ever forced non-Serbs to move out,
3 you were referring again to late 1993 and after; right?
4 A. I'm referring to the entire period, to the best of my knowledge,
5 as regards that entire period, and on the basis of the information that I
6 had from the persons who were leaving Sanski Most, regardless of whether
7 these were members of the other ethnicity or whether they were ethnic
8 Serbs. Probably in that period of time, I, who did not have a job, did
9 not have any income whatsoever, I probably would have left if --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not hear the end of
11 the sentence.
12 Q. The interpreters didn't hear the end of your sentence. Can you
13 just repeat that last sentence?
14 A. Well, I'm saying, bearing in mind the situation that prevailed at
15 the time, and the fact that I was jobless and so on, I said that if I had
16 somewhere to go, I probably would have left Sanski Most too. I would
17 have gone to a better destination.
18 Q. Mr. Davidovic, I asked you yesterday about massive destruction,
19 about statements of the SDS leader to expel people. We talked about
20 Mahala. I played for you this radio -- the threats over the radio and
21 you say you had no any knowledge about it; right?
22 A. Well, believe me, if you were in my place, and if you lived
23 20 kilometres away from that place, and if you were involved in
24 agriculture and if you were helping your parents with their work, you
25 really would not have time to deal with all of these things. I tried to
1 survive at that time and to help my parents till the land. Really,
2 everything was aimed in that direction. And then once conditions were
3 created, of course, I asked to continue working at the Sanski Most
5 Q. Let's talk about a little bit different topic. Let's talk about
6 dismissals of non-Serbs from their employment. It is correct, is it,
7 that in May 1992, non-Serbs were dismissed and -- from their employment
8 and Serbs took their positions; right?
9 A. You see, this word, "dismissals," no, they did not show up for
10 work. Members of other ethnicities. And many Serbs were away too, so
11 that is why I was asked to work in the municipality of Sanski Most and to
12 continue doing the work that I had done before I lost my job.
13 MR. ZEC: Can we have 65 ter 256334 and these are minutes of the
14 third session of the Municipal Assembly from May 1992.
15 Can we have last page?
16 Q. At the end of the document, we see your name. So you took notes
17 of this session; right?
18 A. Well, probably.
19 MR. ZEC: Can we have -- can we have page 4 of the English,
20 page 3 of the B/C/S.
21 Q. And this session discusses appointments to various posts in the
22 municipality. And if we see item number 14, in item number 14, it refers
23 to the appointment of Veso Majkic to the position of acting director of
24 the post office. Can you confirm that Veso Majkic is a Serb name?
25 A. Yes, a Serb name, yes.
1 Q. Before May 1992, this post was occupied by a Muslim; right?
2 A. Well, I don't know. Probably. But I cannot remember now. I'm
3 not sure but probably.
4 Q. Item number 15 refers to the appointment of Bosko Grubisa to the
5 position of the acting director of the health centre. He replaced
6 Dr. Enes Sabanovic; right?
7 A. I know that Enes Sabanovic did something. Possibly he was a
8 director and then, yes, in that period, Grubisa was appointed acting head
9 of the health centre.
10 Q. Item number 16 refers to the appointment of Mile Cucak to the
11 acting director of the fire house. He replaced a Croat, Nikola Kosoric;
13 A. Mile, yes, Mile Cucak came, yes. Well, I cannot say for sure.
14 If that's the information there, well, yes, probably.
15 Q. Judge Nedzad Muhic, president of the municipal magistrate's
16 court, was replaced by a Serb judge; right?
17 A. I think that Nedzad Muhic was president of the misdemeanours
18 court, not the basic court. I think that Adil Draganovic was president
19 of the basic court. Maybe I'm making a mistake, but I think that he was
20 a misdemeanours judge.
21 Q. Regardless, both these people that you just mentioned were
22 replaced by Serb judges; right?
23 A. Top positions, yes, presidents of these courts, yes.
24 Q. Judge Muhic died in an overcrowded truck full of prisoners on the
25 way to Manjaca; right?
1 A. I'm not aware of that.
2 Q. Are you suggesting that you don't know anything, didn't hear
3 anything, about the fate of this once-prominent judge?
4 A. Just read about something in a book. I think it was a man from
5 Kljuc who wrote about Sanski Most. In that period of time, I really
6 didn't know anything.
7 MR. ZEC: Your Honours, with respect to Judge Muhic, I refer to
8 P718, page 25; P3634, pages 61-62; P3329, page 57; P3649; and P4853,
9 page 48.
10 And I would like to tender this document that we were looking at.
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we will receive it.
12 THE REGISTRAR: It receives Exhibit Number P6547, Your Honours.
13 MR. ZEC:
14 Q. Let's talk about the changes in the structure of the Sanski Most
15 population from 1992 to 1993. It is correct, is it, that in 1993, there
16 were about 4.000 Muslims and about 1.000 Croats left in Sanski Most,
17 reduced from about 28.000 of Muslims and about 4.300 Croats before the
18 conflict began? You know this; right?
19 A. You see, I don't know who did the counting but these are probably
20 figures from the census. This other part, 1991. As for the Muslims and
21 Croats in Sanski Most. I know for sure because I was in the centre for
22 social welfare and I coordinated humanitarian aid, a considerable number
23 of Muslims, and I think Croats too, lived in Sanski Most in this period
24 of time as well. And indeed, they continued to move out in 1994 and 1995
25 and a considerable number stayed on in Sanski Most after 1995, but I
1 don't know the exact figures. I know that - how do I put this? - there
2 were many in town when humanitarian aid was being distributed, and also
3 in the Bliha Valley and Caplje and Poljak and Sekovici and Skrljevita in
4 the direction of Banja Luka. I mean, I really cannot say which number is
5 involved, but --
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not understand the
7 end of the sentence.
8 MR. ZEC:
9 Q. Mr. Davidovic, you're repeating more or less what you said in
10 your statement. And please be aware that there are people who are
11 translating what you're saying. You have to speak slowly.
12 MR. ZEC: Can we have 65 ter --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.
14 MR. ZEC: -- 25640. This is a census from Sanski Most made in
15 1993. And if we can have a look at e-court page in B/C/S and page 6 of
16 the English, here we see an overview of the population structure in
17 Sanski Most from 1990 -- 1961 to 1993. And in 1993, there were
18 4.390 Muslims and 1.247 Croats in Sanski Most.
19 Q. And you knew this at the time, Mr. Davidovic; right?
20 A. Possibly. I mean, it's hard to memorise figures, and I mean,
21 this number -- well, I told you that I saw people but it's hard for me to
22 say anything about the figure. I cannot confirm or deny it. After
23 20 years, it is very difficult to remember. I took part in the census
24 commission in 1991 and I cannot remember the exact figures that were
25 published, let alone this.
1 Q. Mr. Davidovic, you participated, as you say, in 1991 census, but
2 you also participated in production of this census, 1993; right?
3 A. It's possible. In the organisation of the census, given my -- my
4 experience, I participated in the organisation and ensured that the
5 census was carried out in a correct manner, the census that was performed
6 during that period of time.
7 MR. ZEC: Can we have 65 ter 25642?
8 Q. If you look at the decision on the left top corner, it's decision
9 appointing you to the commission and you were a member of the municipal
10 commission for conducting this 1993 census that we just saw; right?
11 A. That's right.
12 MR. ZEC: Your Honours, I would tender these two documents.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we will receive them both.
14 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 25640 receives Exhibit Number
15 P6548. 65 ter number 25642 receives Exhibit Number P6549, Your Honours.
16 MR. ZEC:
17 Q. Mr. Davidovic, you knew, and as this Chamber also knows, this
18 reduction in the numbers of non-Serbs was required because Sanski Most
19 had to be a Serbian town. P02657. That's correct; right?
20 A. I didn't participate in those actions, and I really have to say
21 that you're not putting the question to the right person. I did my work,
22 the work that the organs of power had asked me to do. I carried out the
23 census. You can see that this was all done legally. There was an
24 overview of the situation. As for the causes and the effects of that,
25 well, I wasn't competent to comment on that. It wasn't possible.
1 MR. ZEC: Your Honours, I have nothing further.
2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Zec.
3 Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, your Excellencies. Good
5 morning, your Excellencies. Good morning to everyone.
6 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
7 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Davidovic.
8 A. Good morning.
9 Q. In the video we saw, in the video excerpt, mention was made of
10 numerous villages. Did some of those villages hand over their weapons,
11 according to the information you have?
12 A. No, Mr. President.
13 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
14 MR. ZEC: The witness testified that he has no idea what was
15 going on here.
16 MR. ROBINSON: Well, excuse me, Mr. President, this is a
17 recurring objection that I think needs to be dealt with. The Prosecution
18 constantly asks witnesses about what they say that they don't know about
19 and puts things to them that either contradict or confirm other parts of
20 their evidence, so there is no -- simply because the witness has at one
21 point said he didn't know anything about an event doesn't mean that
22 Dr. Karadzic can't put some information to him to see whether or not the
23 witness is able to comment on it.
24 JUDGE KWON: Was that question not very leading, Mr. Robinson?
25 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, that would be a very legitimate objection.
1 JUDGE KWON: If you could reformulate your question,
2 Mr. Karadzic.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, your Excellencies.
4 Thank you.
5 Could the witness be shown 65 ter document 04898?
6 MR. ZEC: You just told Mr. Karadzic to --
7 JUDGE KWON: I think he's moving on to another topic.
8 MR. ZEC: Before even putting a document to a witness, he's
9 supposed to ask some non-leading questions.
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Davidovic, where were you born, where did you live, and where
13 did you spend the period during which you were unemployed?
14 A. I was born in Bosanski Milanovac, a village which is between
15 15 and 20 kilometres from Sanski Most. That is where I lived during that
16 period of time, at the beginning of 1992, at the end of 1991 and at the
17 beginning of 1992.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see this document,
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. In the last exhibit, we saw that there were 4.300-odd Muslims.
23 Where did they mostly live at the time? Were the villages where there
24 were Muslims or did they only live in small places?
25 A. Some lived in towns but there were also entire Muslim villages in
1 the valley of the Bliha river, that's Husinovci, Donji/Gornji Kamengrad.
2 Many of them worked in the coal mine. Many of them -- most of them
3 worked there all the time. In the valley of the Sana river, there was
4 Caplja and Tomina in the direction of Kljuc. And these -- amongst these
5 Croats there was a Polish man from Skrljevita and Sehovici in the
6 direction of Banja Luka. That's where they were in the majority, and
7 they remained to live there, the Muslims who were on the census and
8 Croats remained to live there.
9 Q. Thank you. Can you tell the Chamber what the difference is
10 between those villages and Hrustovo, for example, which is where there
11 was a crisis and fighting?
12 A. Hrustovo, after that crisis, remained uninhabited, whereas these
13 villages, under the circumstances, were organised in a certain way and
14 they worked to the extent that that was possible given the circumstances.
15 Q. Could you use this map to show us where your village is located,
16 Milanovac, Bosanski Milanovac?
17 A. [Marks]. Jovici, that's part of the village.
18 Q. Could you mark it with the letters B and M?
19 A. Here, yes.
20 Q. That's a group of villages, of hamlets; is that correct?
21 A. Yes, yes, based on the surnames, Davidovici, Jovici, Milovici,
22 and so on and so forth. Because that's why the map was made, in that
24 Q. Could you use a -- could you draw a line under some of these
25 villages where these Muslim people lived and worked or could you draw a
1 circle around the names of these villages?
2 A. That would be here. It's here in this area. I've also marked
3 the location of the river.
4 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is kindly asked not to mumble as
5 the interpreter cannot understand what he's saying.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. As for Tomina?
8 A. This is this part towards Kljuc, but I'm not sure.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak up as the
10 interpreter cannot hear the witness.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it was here at the river of
12 Sana and the road towards Kljuc. That's where it is. Somewhere here.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Thank you. Could you please write down the date -- and towards
15 the north, in fact, I apologise, Marina is Serbian and --
16 JUDGE KWON: I'm wondering, Mr. Karadzic, how this could assist
17 the Chamber in any way.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, your Excellencies, have a
19 look towards the town itself, there are some Muslim villages that no one
20 touched. So we want to determine why Hrustovo was treated differently,
21 and Tomina and Kamengrad and so on and so forth were treated in a
22 different manner. What's the basis for this difference in treatment? Is
23 it faith or something else? That's essential for me, given my
24 understanding of the indictment. If the policy was to remove them, if
25 that is what the system was, why weren't they removed.
1 JUDGE KWON: No, I'm not asking about your case but how this map
2 marking will assist your case? That was my question. Very well. Could
3 you date -- put the date, which is 5th of December, 2013, and your
4 signature, wherever you like, as you please.
5 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The 5th. I have a better or more
7 legible map.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we will assign a new number for this.
9 THE REGISTRAR: It receives Exhibit Number D4168, Your Honours.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. On page 85 of yesterday's transcript, Prosecution exhibit was
12 shown, P6545. You were suggested as a candidate for the head of the
13 police station and my approval was asked. Did I give my approval?
14 A. There were three candidates, and in terms of their rank, because
15 of the system of ranking, I didn't get that position.
16 Q. Are you familiar with the case when some of the Muslims or the
17 Croats had to pack up and leave Sanski Most? Were they forced to do so
18 by the authorities, not because of the situation?
19 A. I have no such information. I have no knowledge of such a case.
20 Q. Thank you. Were the Croatian villages in Sanski Most in which
21 the Croats had remained and continued to work, go to school, these things
22 were paid for by the municipality and so on?
23 A. Yes. When I made markings on the map, I said that there was this
24 area of Molja [phoen] -- Poljak and Skrljevita where this was the case.
25 Poljak was nearer to the town and that's where children went to school,
1 and Skrljevita is nearer to the municipality. The municipality found
2 means for the children who were far away from the town to also go to
4 Q. And in Sanski Most, was there a sort of market day? Did the
5 Muslims and Croats go there to Sanski Most once a week?
6 A. Yes. Monday was market day in Sanski Most and on that day it was
7 possible to see Muslims and Croats, and that market was in the very
8 centre of town. There are various types of goods there, and livestock
9 would also be sold and bought then.
10 Q. Thank you, Mr. Davidovic. I have no further questions.
11 JUDGE KWON: Well, that concludes your evidence, Mr. Davidovic.
12 On behalf of the Chamber, I thank you for your coming to The Hague to
13 give it. Please have a safe journey back home.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much for treating me
16 [The witness withdrew]
17 MS. McKENNA: Your Honour, if I may make a brief submission
18 before the next witness comes in?
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
20 MS. McKENNA: And if we could move into private session, please?
21 JUDGE KWON: Shall we?
22 [Private session]
11 Page 44532 redacted. Private session.
2 [Open session]
3 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
4 [The witness entered court]
5 JUDGE KWON: Could the witness make the solemn declaration.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
7 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
8 WITNESS: RAJKO KALABIC
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Kalabic. Please be seated and make
11 yourself comfortable.
12 Before you commence your evidence, Mr. Kalabic, I must draw your
13 attention to a certain rule of evidence that we have here at the
14 Tribunal. That is Rule 90(E). Under this rule, you may object to
15 answering any question from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecutor or even from the
16 Judges if you believe that your answer might incriminate you. In this
17 context, "incriminate" means saying something that might amount to an
18 admission of guilt for a criminal offence or saying something that might
19 provide evidence that you might have committed a criminal offence.
20 However, should you think that an answer might incriminate you and, as a
21 consequence, you refuse to answer the question, I must let you know that
22 the Tribunal has the power to compel you to answer the question. But in
23 that situation, the Tribunal would ensure that your answer -- your
24 testimony compelled under such circumstances would not be used in any
25 case that might be laid against you for any offence except and save the
1 offence of giving false testimony.
2 Do you understand that, Mr. Kalabic?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Yes, please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.
5 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Kalabic.
7 A. Good day.
8 Q. Could we please make pauses between questions and answers and
9 speak slowly, but you aren't someone who speaks very fast. Did you give
10 my Defence team a statement?
11 A. Yes, I did.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Do you see your statement on the screen in front of you?
17 A. Yes, I do.
18 Q. Thank you. Did you read the statement and sign it?
19 A. I read the statement and I signed it, but I have to say that when
20 I went through the statement, I noticed that there was a mistake that
21 needs to be corrected.
22 Q. Thank you very much.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we just show the witness the
24 last page so that he can see and identify his signature.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's my signature.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Could you now help us and tell us which paragraph is concerned?
3 Do you have the printed statement in front of you?
4 A. No. I don't. If we could scroll back a little, I can find the
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the Chamber make it possible
7 for the witness to have a hard copy of his statement?
8 JUDGE KWON: Shall we print it out, unless you have it with you.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, could it please be printed out
10 in the Serbian version?
11 JUDGE KWON: I'm told the court deputy is not able to print out
12 from the e-court.
13 MR. ROBINSON: I can do it, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Could you please have a look at it and tell us which paragraph
18 the mistake appears in? Mr. Kalabic, was the mistake perhaps corrected
19 in the course of the proofing?
20 A. I'm trying to find it but I can't find the mistake that
21 I noticed.
22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Kalabic, if you could tell us what it is about,
23 then Mr. Karadzic can locate the paragraph number.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It had to do with the Sanica and
25 Biljani area, Marko Adamovic was mentioned as a name. The name should
1 have been Marko Samardzija.
2 JUDGE KWON: Paragraph 18?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, your Excellency, yes.
4 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Will you pose a question to the
5 witness about this? Yes.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Mr. Kalabic, does it say it's Adamovic in the adjudicated facts
8 but you know that it was someone else or --
9 A. In the statement I gave, I said the person concerned was
10 Marko Samardzija, but I later noticed that it says "Marko Adamovic."
11 This has to do with Sanica and Biljani. In all the other places where
12 Marko Adamovic appears as a name, that's fine.
13 Q. But we know what was originally stated in the adjudicated facts
14 but you are making this correction, then? You're saying that the person
15 was not Adamovic, it was Samardzija?
16 A. That's correct. I didn't manage to this find this in these
18 Q. In paragraph 18, that is where you mentioned this.
19 A. No. Unfortunately, this paragraph is not in this text. Now I've
20 looked at it in detail.
21 Q. Excuse me, what's written in your paragraph 18?
22 A. "Adjudicated fact 2438 has been explained to me and this fact
23 states, 'The commander of the Serb unit, Marko Adamovic, ordered the
24 soldiers through a megaphone to set the village on fire and to kill the
25 women and children.'" I can state the following: I categorically
1 claim" --
2 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Then how about paragraph 9? And
3 also Adamovic appears in para 3.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In paragraph 9, no. In
5 paragraph 3, paragraph 3 does not mention any names at all.
6 JUDGE KWON: Paragraph 2.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].
8 Q. But paragraph 2 is correct. That's what you testified.
9 A. Paragraph 2 is correct. And it stands, as it is.
10 MS. McKENNA: If I may be of assistance, I believe the witness
11 may be referring to a paragraph about Mr. Samardzija that was taken out
12 of the revised statement, so perhaps the easiest thing is simply to get
13 him to confirm the two paragraphs in which Mr. Adamovic is referenced,
14 just to clarify the record.
15 JUDGE KWON: So the paragraphs you looked at are all correct at
16 the moment?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. All the paragraphs I looked
18 at are correct.
19 JUDGE KWON: I take it those mistakes pointed out by you must
20 have been corrected.
21 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Taking into account what you said about these paragraphs, does
25 this statement as a whole now faithfully reflect what you have stated to
1 my Defence team?
2 A. Yes, it does.
3 Q. If I were to put to you today the same questions here in the
4 courtroom, would your answers be essentially the same?
5 A. Yes. I would answer the same.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tender this statement into it
9 JUDGE KWON: Any objection, Ms. McKenna?
10 MS. McKENNA: No objection, Your Honour.
11 JUDGE KWON: We will receive it.
12 THE REGISTRAR: It receives Exhibit Number D4169, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will now read out a
15 short summary of Mr. Rajko Kalabic's statement in English.
16 [In English] Rajko Kalabic was elected as the SDS deputy of the
17 Council of Municipalities of the BiH Assembly to represent Kljuc
18 municipality. He was also a member of the Kljuc Crisis Staff.
19 The elections in the municipality of Kljuc were largely won by
20 the SDS and SDA. Despite the fact that the SDS won over 50 per cent of
21 the vote, all executive positions in the local authorities were divided
22 equally between Muslim and Serbian personnel. At the time, there were no
23 interethnic frictions in Kljuc, and Serbs and Muslims lived and worked
25 The first incident in the territory of the Kljuc municipality
1 happened on 27th of May, 1992, when an attack was mounted on a convoy of
2 buses carrying demobilised JNA soldiers. During the attack, five
3 soldiers were killed and one of the drivers was hanged from a tree by the
4 road side, and his body hanged for several days until it was taken down
5 by members of the VRS. Omer Filipovic, the Bosnian Muslim vice-president
6 of the Municipal Assembly was in charge of the attack and the chairman of
7 the Executive Committee of the Kljuc municipality, Asim Egrlic took also
8 part in it and was wounded when the JNA convoy escorted -- escort
9 returned fire. Nevertheless, he was administered first aid at the health
10 centre in Kljuc and then he was transferred for further medical treatment
11 in Banja Luka.
12 These events caused fear and unrest among the residents of Kljuc.
13 After that, a number of non-Serbs failed to turn up to -- for work
14 because they were aware of the preparations being put in place by their
15 leaders. All peace-loving non-Serbian residents of Kljuc who wanted to
16 stay were allowed to keep their jobs and they regularly received their
17 salaries. Anyone who expressed the wish to leave and was not suspected
18 of having committed a criminal offence or a misdemeanour against the
19 residents of Kljuc was allowed and enabled to leave. Regardless of the
20 ethnicity, everyone who had somewhere to go and leave the pandemonium of
21 war tried to leave. When leaving the municipality, all residents were
22 allowed to sell their properties or to leave them to their fellow
23 residents to look after.
24 There was no plan for systematic destruction or plunder of these
25 houses because each house was needed to accommodate refugees who were
1 expelled from other towns of BH, where Muslims held power. Such acts of
2 destructions were the work of extremist individuals and were met with
3 condemnation by the population and the authorities at large.
4 After the bloody events on 27th of May, 1992, the VRS units set
5 up check-points on the access points to the town of Kljuc and tried to
6 establish communication with the Muslim paramilitary commander
7 Omer Filipovic. He was nearly begged not to proceed with his plan and to
8 start negotiating instead. On 27th of May, 1992, the VRS unit collected
9 weapons in those villages where Mr. Filipovic had his paramilitary units.
10 Those Muslim militants who turned a deaf ear to the call to surrender
11 weapons were brought in for criminal proceedings.
12 The Serbian people believed in the state of Yugoslavia and
13 therefore in the JNA as the army of its country, and for that reason they
14 did not feel that they had to organise or arm. If weapons were procured,
15 this was done by the individuals and this was therefore not directed by
16 the SDS as the movement of the Serbian people in BH. On the other hand,
17 the -- two other people in BH, Muslims and Croats, did not perceive the
18 above-mentioned country and army as their own so they organised an armed
19 paramilitary on the ground.
20 At the time the role of the Crisis Staff involved only the
21 methods of supplying people with food, water, and electricity. In
22 addition the Crisis Staff also looked after the setting in motion of the
23 commercial manufacture. During the war, the municipal organisation of
24 the SDS in Kljuc did not meet and the claims that the SDS had devised and
25 then implemented some plans against the non-Serbian population are
1 therefore untrue.
2 Dr. Karadzic did not have any influence on the elections of the
3 officials or bodies in the municipality, either before the war or during
4 the war. Dr. Karadzic never ordered, committed or aided and abetted war
5 crimes against non-Serbian population in BH during the civil war.
6 And that is short summary. At that moment I do not have
7 additional questions for Mr. Kalabic.
8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Kalabic, as you have noted, your
9 evidence-in-chief in this case has been admitted in writing, that is,
10 through your written statement, in lieu of your oral testimony.
11 Now you'll be cross-examined by the representative of the Office
12 of the Prosecutor. Do you understand that?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, quite.
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. McKenna.
15 MS. McKENNA: Thank you, Your Honour.
16 Cross-examination by Ms. McKenna:
17 Q. Mr. Kalabic, as you state in your -- you note in your statement
18 that you testified in the Brdjanin case here at the ICTY. That was in
19 2003; is that correct?
20 A. Correct. I testified in that case.
21 Q. And you also note that you testified in the case against
22 Marko Adamovic and Bosko Lukic at the Bosnian state court, and that
23 was -- you testified twice, once in the Defence of Mr. Lukic and once in
24 the Defence of Mr. Adamovic, both times in 2010; isn't that correct?
25 A. Yes, correct. I testified in both cases.
1 Q. And you told the truth in your previous testimony before this
2 Tribunal and the Bosnian state court?
3 A. Yes, I told the truth.
4 Q. Now, I'd just like at the outset to clarify the various positions
5 that you held because it's not entirely clear from your statement. You
6 say that you were an SDS deputy in the Assembly of the Socialist Republic
7 of Bosnia and Herzegovina, in paragraph 3 of your statement. You were
8 also a member of the Assembly of the Autonomous Region of Krajina; isn't
9 that correct?
10 A. Yes, correct.
11 Q. And you were subsequently a member of the Bosnian Serb Assembly,
12 as you state in your statement. You were also a member of the
13 Crisis Staff which was formed on the 23rd of December, 1991, in Kljuc?
14 A. Yes, correct.
15 Q. And you were subsequently a member of the War Presidency which
16 was formed on the 10th of July in 1992?
17 A. Yes, correct.
18 Q. Now, in paragraph 5 of your statement, you're discussing the
19 period between the multi-party elections and the 27th of May, 1992. You
20 state that at that time there were no interethnic frictions in Kljuc.
21 It's true, though, isn't it, that in the summer of 1991, the Kljuc SDS
22 began to organise memorial services for the Serb victims of World War II.
23 That's correct, isn't it?
24 A. Yes. That's correct. At some point, memorial services were held
25 for the victims of World War II who were buried near Kljuc, and that
1 place is still there.
2 Q. I'd like to talk about one of these memorial services which was
3 held on the 29th of September, 1991, was organised by the SDS jointly
4 celebrating its anniversary and -- or the establishment of the Kljuc SDS
5 and commemorating the victims of the Ustasha genocide. Now, you spoke at
6 that event; isn't that correct?
7 A. Yes, I did.
8 MS. McKENNA: Could we have P3423, please?
9 Q. This, Mr. Kalabic, is a record of that event.
10 MS. McKENNA: If we could go to page 2 of both the English and
11 the B/C/S.
12 Q. And towards the bottom of the page in the English, we will see
13 what you said at that assembly. And you noted that:
14 This was the first occasion after World War II when we were
15 actually reminded of the genocide which the Ustashas committed against
16 the Serbian people, rather late but still in time to prevent history from
17 repeating itself in its most horrible form. A foul war was being waged
18 in one part of the country, typified by the unleashing of a genocidal
19 fascist hysteria on the part of the hordes controlled by and serving the
20 goal of the pro-fascist and pro-Ustasha newly elected Croatian
22 Now, do you agree, Mr. Kalabic, that this kind of public speech
23 would have raised interethnic tensions in Kljuc?
24 A. I cannot read this in this document. Maybe you can show it to me
25 so I remember that I really said these things and then perhaps I can
2 Q. It's towards the bottom of the document, I believe. And just --
3 JUDGE KWON: Is this a record of that event or the broadcast of
4 certain radio?
5 MS. McKENNA: It's a journalistic reporting of the event.
6 JUDGE KWON: It's a reporting of a journalist on the radio.
7 MS. McKENNA: It is.
8 Q. If you would like me to refresh your memory, you confirmed in
9 your Brdjanin testimony that this was what you said at that event.
10 A. Your Honours, since I don't have the text of my speech, I cannot
11 remember exactly what it was.
12 JUDGE KWON: We can collapse the English for the moment. Yes, we
13 can zoom in the last paragraph. I think I see your name here, if you
14 could read that out. You can read it to yourself.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can.
16 I am not really sure that I used these words quoted here in my
17 speech, but I don't think that at that time my speech was disruptive to
18 the interethnic relations in Kljuc because, at that time, it is true that
19 those symbols that had been used in 1941 and in the Second World War had
20 reappeared in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and in our eyes, they were seen as a
21 threat to our lives, to peace, et cetera, and we had to sound a warning
22 against such things. At that time, however, we did not yet know that
23 these symbols would be adopted as the official emblems of the new
24 Croatian state.
25 Q. Mr. Kalabic, I'd like to remind you what you said when you
1 accepted that you said these words in your Brdjanin testimony.
2 MS. McKENNA: And that's -- could we please have 25682, and it's
3 e-court page 11. Thank you.
4 Q. This is the record of your testimony in the Brdjanin case,
5 Mr. Kalabic, and the quote from that rally was put to you and you were
6 asked at the bottom of the page:
7 "What are you talking about there?"
8 And then you go on to explain exactly what you were talking about
9 and you explain, as you just did, that this was the first opportunity for
10 the newly elected multi-party - if we could move to the next page,
11 please - government and you explained what you were talking about?
12 And then you were asked:
13 "When you say 'what's happening again,' what do you mean?"
14 And you say: "What I meant at that time," and you continue to
15 explain what you meant at that time.
16 So it's clear, isn't it, Mr. Kalabic, that you did, in fact, say
17 these things?
18 A. Your Honours, I would like to see these pages in the Serbian
19 language so that I can see what's written there and then I could comment.
20 I asked for the same thing a moment ago but instead I got some writing by
21 a journalist instead of the text of my speech.
22 MS. McKENNA: Your Honour, I'd like to tender these two pages.
23 JUDGE KWON: Why don't you read out the relevant part of the
24 transcript, from the bottom of previous page?
25 MS. McKENNA: Certainly.
1 Q. Mr. Kalabic, as I said, the passage that I just read out was put
2 to you and you were asked:
3 "What are you talking about there?"
4 And you say:
5 "This was the first opportunity for the newly elected multiparty
6 government after the socialist times in the former Bosnia and Herzegovina
7 to speak more realistically of what happened in 1941, who the victims
8 were, who the perpetrators were, and what is happening again. And are
9 these -- are the things that are happening again something that would
10 remind us of the things that happened before in 1941?"
11 So do you accept that in that passage, you're commenting on the
12 words that you used in the speech?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excuse me, may I just ask one
14 thing? Why is it mentioned at all that it would be addressed to the
15 assembly? It's on the previous page. It was not an assembly meeting.
16 It was a rally connected with a funeral. And the words on the previous
17 page referred to the assembly.
18 JUDGE KWON: I'm not sure whether assembly was referred to.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If we put on the previous page
20 again, we'll see it. Line 6.
21 MS. McKENNA: This, Mr. Karadzic, this is a quote from the
22 document and the document identifies itself as a record of the SDS event
23 which jointly celebrates the SDS Kljuc anniversary and the -- and
24 commemorates the victims of the Ustasha genocide.
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
1 MS. McKENNA:
2 Q. So it's clear, isn't it, Mr. Kalabic, that in your Brdjanin
3 testimony you accepted that you said those words?
4 A. Well, without a translation, I cannot say quite decidedly what
5 I meant and what I said. But taken out of context, these two passages
6 could be interpreted to have a totally different connotation. However,
7 the truth is that those symbols reemerging at that time did take one's
8 mind back to 1941.
9 JUDGE KWON: We will receive those two transcript pages.
10 THE REGISTRAR: It receives Exhibit Number P6550, Your Honours.
11 MS. McKENNA:
12 Q. Now, other events that were happening around that time were the
13 proclamation by the Assembly of the Bosanska Krajina, of the Autonomous
14 Region of Krajina, on the 16th of September, 1991, for the parties'
15 reference that's P3421; the circulation by Mr. Brdjanin of an SDS order
16 from a meeting of the ARK municipal presidents chaired by Mr. Karadzic,
17 and that's P3581; and there is evidence before the Trial Chamber,
18 Mr. Kalabic, that both of these had a negative impact on interethnic
19 relations, specifically with the Bosnian Muslim community, resulting in
20 the SDA and the MBO making joint public statements about that negative
21 impact, and for the parties' reference that's P3577 and P3582.
22 Is it your evidence that you, as an assembly member for Kljuc and
23 a member of the ARK Assembly, you were unaware of the negative impact
24 that these moves by the Serbs' authorities were having on interethnic
1 A. Your Honours, I would need to see the document and then I would
2 be able to answer the question.
3 Q. Mr. Kalabic, I don't think you do need to see the document. Do
4 you recall the proclamation of the ARK in September 1991?
5 A. I don't recall the proclamation of the ARK in September 1991.
6 That's why I said I would need to see a document. That would refresh my
7 memory of things I used to know.
8 JUDGE KWON: Shall we take a break? We will have a break for
9 half an hour and resume at 11.00.
10 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.
11 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. McKenna, please continue.
13 MS. McKENNA: Thank you, Your Honour.
14 Q. Mr. Kalabic, I'm going to move on to a different topic. In
15 paragraph 16 of your statement, you say that Dr. Karadzic did not have
16 any influence on the election of the officials or bodies in the
17 municipality either before the war or after the war.
18 But it's true, isn't it, that the Kljuc Crisis Staff was formed
19 pursuant to the instructions on the organisation and activities of the
20 Serbian people which was issued by Mr. Karadzic? That's true, isn't it?
21 A. Dr. Karadzic did not personally say who would be on the
22 Crisis Staff. He did not give the name and surname of a person who would
23 be on the staff.
24 Q. Mr. Kalabic, you were present at the 20th of December, 1991,
25 meeting at the Holiday Inn in Sarajevo at which Mr. Karadzic distributed
1 the instructions that we've just mentioned, weren't you?
2 A. I cannot remember whether I was at that meeting at the
3 Holiday Inn or not, so I cannot remember at all, I cannot remember having
4 that document in my hands.
5 THE ACCUSED: May I ask where is the reference for the assertion
6 that I have been distributing that? I was not a technical person there.
7 JUDGE KWON: I think that could be understood in the context by
8 the witness. Let's continue.
9 MS. McKENNA: Could we please have page 74 of 65 ter 25682,
10 Mr. Kalabic's testimony in Brdjanin.
11 Q. I'd like to focus at the bottom of this page, please. You were
13 "... you saw a copy of the instructions for the organisation of
14 the Serbian people in Sarajevo."
15 And you said:
16 "Yes, I did say that I saw this instruction in Sarajevo."
17 So it's correct, isn't it, Mr. Kalabic, that you saw the
18 instructions in Sarajevo at the Holiday Inn meeting?
19 A. I don't remember. I don't remember. I cannot remember being at
20 this meeting at the Holiday Inn at all, and I particularly cannot
21 remember seeing this kind of document. Is it possible for me to receive
22 a copy of this document in my language to take a look at it? Then that
23 would be, I mean, reasonable. Then I could say what I have to say about
25 Q. Mr. Kalabic, we will shortly look at a document in your language
1 dealing exactly with this subject, but it's your testimony that you
2 remember nothing about this meeting. You don't remember, as you
3 testified in Brdjanin, that the instructions were given to SDS
4 representatives who brought the instructions to their respective
6 A. I've already said that I do not remember being at that meeting at
7 all. And, in particular, I do not remember that I took some document and
8 took it to the Kljuc municipality.
9 MS. McKENNA: I'd like to tender pages 74 and 75, please.
10 JUDGE KWON: Did you show us page 75 or read out --
11 MS. McKENNA: Oh, I'm sorry, on page 75, the witness stated the
12 document wasn't given to representatives --
13 JUDGE KWON: If you'd like to tender that, put it to the witness.
14 MS. McKENNA: Sorry, I paraphrased it. I'll read the exact
15 passage to the witness.
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
17 MS. McKENNA: My apologies.
18 Q. Mr. Brdjanin, you stated --
19 JUDGE KWON: Kalabic.
20 MS. McKENNA:
21 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Kalabic, you stated, with respect to these
22 instructions, you were asked: Was it given to representatives in the
23 assembly to take back to their own municipalities?
24 And you responded:
25 No, it wasn't given to representatives in the assembly; it was
1 given to representatives of the Serbian Democratic Party, and they were
2 the ones who brought these instructions to their respective
4 A. Your Honours, so what is it that I've already said, that I did
5 not see the document, that it was not given to me in Sarajevo, that I do
6 not remember it and now the Prosecutor confirmed all of that.
7 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Kalabic, the Tribunal does not make a transcript
8 in B/C/S. It's only in working language of the Tribunal, both in English
9 and French. But audio tape is kept. If you'd like you can check whether
10 you said -- testified like this or not. I think you know this already.
11 We will add these two pages to the exhibit which is
12 Exhibit P6550. Please continue.
13 MS. McKENNA: Thank you. Could we please have P2592?
14 Q. Now, this, Mr. Kalabic, is a document in your own language and
15 it's dated the 23rd of December, 1991, and it's the minutes of a meeting
16 of the Executive Committee of the SDS Municipal Board in Kljuc. And
17 you'll see that agenda item 1 of this meeting is: Briefing on the
18 decisions of the Serbian Assembly and the materials that arrived.
19 And if you look at the discussion of item 1, it states:
20 "Veljko Kondic informed the meeting of the instructions for the
21 organisation and activities of the Serbian people in Bosnia and
22 Herzegovina. All organs will be required to act in accordance with the
24 MS. McKENNA: Before -- could we just please go to page 2 of this
25 meeting. In both the B/C/S and the English.
1 Q. And it states:
2 "After a recess, Rajko Kalabic informed those present on the
3 issues considered in the second part of the Serbian Assembly
5 So, Mr. Kalabic, this meeting of the Kljuc authorities took place
6 three days after the meeting in Sarajevo, and it's you and Veljko Kondic
7 informing the Kljuc SDS of Mr. Karadzic's instructions; isn't that
9 A. This document does not show what it is that I was making the
10 assembly aware of, or, rather, I mean, the Executive Board of the SDS.
11 However, I mean, when I would return from sessions of the
12 People's Assembly of Republika Srpska, I would briefly provide
13 information about certain topics that were discussed at the assembly and
14 that went on for years, for as long as this assembly worked. This just
15 shows that Rajko Kalabic informed about the other part of the assembly,
16 it doesn't say exactly what it was.
17 Now, what is contained in this other part, that is something I
18 don't know right now and I cannot remember what it was that I was talking
20 Q. We've just seen -- let's look at what you and Mr. Kondic were
21 talking about. You've just seen the passage where Mr. Kondic informed
22 the meeting of the instructions and stated that all organs will be
23 required to act in accordance with the instructions.
24 MS. McKENNA: And if we could go back to that passage on pages 1
25 of the English and B/C/S, please.
1 JUDGE KWON: We have seen it. So collapse the English and zoom
2 in in B/C/S.
3 MS. McKENNA: I'm going to refer to a slightly different passage,
4 Your Honour.
5 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
6 MS. McKENNA:
7 Q. And after Mr. Kondic informs the members, Brane Vojvodic says:
8 "I can accept all Karadzic's proposals without seeing them."
9 And Mr. Kondic says --
10 JUDGE KWON: I'm not sure it's on page 1 in B/C/S.
11 MS. McKENNA: My apologies. Perhaps it's on page 2.
12 Q. So Mr. Vojvodic says he can accept all of Karadzic's proposals
13 without seeing them. Mr. Kondic says:
14 "That means that all suggestions and tasks from the instructions
15 are accepted in their entirety."
16 And he then proposes or proceeds to detail the composition of the
17 Kljuc Crisis Staff.
18 So it's clear from this document, isn't it, that the Kljuc
19 Crisis Staff was formed directly pursuant to Mr. Karadzic's instructions?
20 A. The Crisis Staff was formed at the proposal of Veljko Kondic, the
21 way he saw the instructions and how he found out about them and how he --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not hear the end of
23 the sentence.
24 MS. McKENNA:
25 Q. Sorry, Mr. Kalabic, could you please repeat the end of the
1 sentence more clearly as the interpreters did not hear it.
2 A. The Crisis Staff was formed as dictated by Mr. Veljko Kondic, in
3 the sense in which he understood the instructions on the basis of which
4 he dictated this.
5 MS. McKENNA: Could we go to page 2 of the English and page 2 of
6 the B/C/S?
7 Q. You've stated that you can't recall what you said at this
8 meeting, so let's look at what you said.
9 As we noted, you informed those present on the issues considered
10 in the second part of the Serbian Assembly proceedings. And if we look
11 at Milan Jovicic's statement, he says:
12 "I ask that this meeting be informed about the second stage."
13 And you respond:
14 "The first stage is the preparation for the second stage, so
15 there is no need to introduce the second stage."
16 Now, this, Mr. Kalabic, is a reference to the second stage of the
17 instructions, isn't it?
18 A. I commented on Milan Jovicic's position because I personally
19 thought at that moment, since Veljko Kondic did say a few sentences in
20 relation to instructions A, and his sentences had to do with the
21 establishment of a Crisis Staff, my position was that it was not
22 necessary for us to be made aware of anything else because in the
23 municipality of Kljuc, plan A or plan B was not needed because the
24 president of the municipality was from the SDS, that is to say a member
25 of the Serb people, then also a majority in the assembly, and quite a few
1 people in the executive government. It wasn't even necessary to
2 establish a Crisis Staff, let alone move towards certain instructions of
3 a different kind because we felt no need to have that done. And
4 realistically speaking, there wasn't a need for that. And that's why
5 that is what I said during the discussion, that there was no need for us
6 to read anything further or interpret anything because, in fact, I mean,
7 we did have a majority in the municipality of Kljuc.
8 Q. Mr. Kalabic, I'm not sure that you've answered my question. My
9 question is: Is your reference in these minutes, that is a reference to
10 the second stage of the instructions, isn't it?
11 A. Well, give me that page. Let me take a look at it, because it's
12 not in front of me now. Let me see now what is written there.
13 MS. McKENNA: I'd like to look at page 22 --
14 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Are we on the correct page in B/C/S?
15 MS. McKENNA: The relevant passage that we are interested in is:
16 "The first stage is preparation for the second stage, so there is
17 no need to introduce the second stage."
18 JUDGE KWON: Do you see that, Mr. Kalabic? Yes, I think it's
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see it. I see it.
21 MS. McKENNA:
22 Q. So having seen it, can you confirm --
23 A. Yes. Yes, it had to do with that, precisely, that it was not
24 necessary to familiarise oneself with any other document because
25 Veljko Kondic had already presented what was necessary from the first
1 document, and presented how a Crisis Staff is to be established. Since
2 the SDS already had a majority in the authorities in the municipality,
3 there was no need to do anything else.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Again, I have to say it is the
5 translation that causes a great deal of confusion. The witness
6 interpreted this correctly now: It was not necessary to familiarise
7 oneself with, et cetera. Whereas over here in the English translation,
8 it says: "Introduction."
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We can continue.
10 MS. McKENNA:
11 Q. So if I understand your testimony, you're saying that, yes, this
12 is a reference to the second stage of the instructions, but at that
13 stage, you were not -- it was not necessary to familiarise yourself with
14 that second stage?
15 A. Yes, there was no need for the municipal board of the SDS to be
16 made aware of the second stage.
17 Q. Well, let's come on to the second stage of the instructions now.
18 You were present on the 14th of February, 1992, at the Holiday Inn
19 meeting in Sarajevo where Mr. Karadzic told the members of the SDS that
20 the second stage of the instructions should be implemented. That's
21 correct, isn't it?
22 A. No. I don't remember, first of all, that I was present at all;
23 and secondly, I do not remember. I mean, if I was not present, then I
24 cannot remember that this kind of sentence was uttered. On the other
25 hand, as far as Kljuc is concerned, again, I repeat, the second stage, no
1 one in Kljuc was made aware of that and did not become familiar with it.
2 That includes me.
3 MS. McKENNA: Could we please have 65 ter 5721?
4 Q. This, Mr. Kalabic, is a receipt from the Holiday Inn hotel --
5 MS. McKENNA: I'm sorry, could we have pages -- page 6 of the
6 English and page 8 of the B/C/S?
7 Q. So this is a receipt from the Holiday Inn hotel for SDS Assembly
8 members and you'll see that it's dated 14th of February, arrival;
9 departure, 15th of February. So this shows that you were, in fact, at
10 that meeting, doesn't it?
11 A. Your Honours, this bill practically doesn't show a thing. First
12 of all, it says down here "signature of guest" and there is no signature
13 of mine there. That is one thing. Secondly, whenever I went to
14 Sarajevo, I would only stay at a private apartment.
15 MS. McKENNA: I'd like to tender this document, please.
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll receive it.
17 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6551, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE KWON: This page.
19 MS. McKENNA: Simply that page.
20 Q. And you told the Court that you have no idea what was said at
21 that meeting so I'd just like to remind you of what was said at that
23 MS. McKENNA: And could we please have P12? If I could have
24 page 5 of the English and page 4 of the B/C/S, please? And the passage
25 I'm interested in is at the very bottom of the English and in the middle
1 of the page of the B/C/S.
2 This is Mr. Karadzic speaking. And he says: "That is" --
3 I think we need to move slightly further down in the English, please.
4 "That is, if you remember, who keeps that in mind or maybe not on
5 his person a stage number 2. There is, remember," if we can move to the
6 next page, "you know what I'm talking about, we know. Yes, that is
7 therefore the stage number 2, the second stage in smaller or bigger
8 variations, but you have to implement that slowly now."
9 If we could move to page 24 of the English and page 18 of the
10 B/C/S, please?
11 Q. At the top of the page in the B/C/S, Mr. Kalabic, and just before
12 it says "cut in recording," Mr. Karadzic says:
13 "That is why we called you here today, to intensify, to introduce
14 the second level, and to intensify the functioning of the government at
15 any cost and on every single millimetre of our territory."
16 Now, Mr. Kalabic, four days later, you reported back to the SDS
17 municipal board in Kljuc on that meeting, didn't you?
18 A. Your Honours, could I please be shown the beginning of this
20 JUDGE KWON: By all means.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says quite clearly that it is
22 the expanded session of the Executive Board of the Serbian Democratic
23 Party held on the 14th of February, 1992, in Sarajevo at the Holiday Inn
24 hotel. I was not a member of the Main Board or the Executive Board of
25 the SDS, and so I can quite rightly claim that I did not attend that
2 MS. McKENNA: Could we move into closed session, please?
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Private, yes.
4 MS. McKENNA: Private session, thank you.
5 JUDGE KWON: No worry, we use it interchangeably. I will make
6 sure when closed session is required.
7 [Private session]
11 Pages 44560-44562 redacted. Private session.
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
23 MS. McKENNA:
24 Q. Now, not just before the conflict but during the conflict, bodies
25 were set up pursuant to Karadzic's instructions, and specifically, this
1 Trial Chamber has received evidence that the Kljuc War Presidency, of
2 which you were a member, was set up pursuant to Karadzic's decision; and
3 the references for that are P2643, P3454 and P2369.
4 So it's not at all true, is it, Mr. Kalabic, that Mr. Karadzic
5 had no influence on the bodies in the municipality before or during the
6 war? In fact, before the war, the Crisis Staff was set up on his
7 instructions, the second level of the instructions were activated when he
8 said it was time to do so, and during the war, the War Presidency was
9 established pursuant to his order. That's the truth, isn't it?
10 A. I can't say that that is the truth because there was almost no
11 contact with Mr. Karadzic unless one went to the assembly from time to
12 time. For a certain period of time it was not possible to reach Pale
13 because there was fighting all around, so it was impossible to get
14 through. And the telephone lines were down, there was no electricity
15 either, there were even problems in providing the inhabitants with
16 general provisions, food, sugar, flour, bread, and so on and so forth.
17 Q. Mr. Kalabic, I think you're straying off the topic. We are
18 talking about bodies being introduced or established pursuant to
19 Mr. Karadzic's order or instructions. And if I understand your
20 testimony, despite the documents that we've seen today, it's your
21 position that none of those bodies were established pursuant to
22 Mr. Karadzic's order or instructions?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an objection. Could the
24 reference please be provided to this witness's testimony? Was he talking
25 about personal decisions or about institutions?
1 JUDGE KWON: I don't see the point of your objections.
2 Overruled. Shall we continue? You can take up the issue in your
3 re-examination, if necessary.
4 MS. McKENNA:
5 Q. Mr. Kalabic, I don't believe you answered my question. My
6 question is: Despite the documents that we have seen today, the evidence
7 before this Trial Chamber, your position is that nothing happened
8 pursuant to -- nothing was established pursuant to Mr. Karadzic's
9 instructions or orders? Is that correct?
10 A. I said in my earlier testimony that given the report of Mr. --
11 there was a report from Mr. Veljko Kondic which had to do with the
12 establishment of the Crisis Staff and pursuant to that report a
13 Crisis Staff was established. I said that Mr. Karadzic did not have any
14 personal influence on anything in relation to Kljuc.
15 Q. I'd like to move to a different topic. Now, in paragraph 7 of
16 your statement, you say that nothing special was noticed until the
17 27th of May, 1992. But contrary to that contention, Mr. Kalabic, it's
18 true, isn't it, that on the 7th of May, large numbers of military troops
19 were transferred onto the territory of Kljuc in order to assist in the
20 take-over and declaration of the Serbian Municipality of Kljuc?
21 A. I have to say that on the 7th of May, power wasn't seized in
22 Kljuc because the -- to a large extent, the SDS had power together with
23 the SDA. We had our president of the municipality, we had a lot of
24 people in the executive government and we had majority assembly. So
25 there was no need to take over power in the assembly because the SDS was
1 exercising power in Kljuc, it couldn't take power over from itself.
2 So let me conclude, if I may, as far as I know, there were no
3 troops, no significant numbers of troops that came to Kljuc. Although at
4 that time, since there was a war in Croatia, various sorts of troops did
5 pass through. I didn't pay much attention to that. And I do have to say
6 that that date is important for one reason alone. And that is that on
7 the basis of the laws in force in Republika Srpska, as Yugoslavia no
8 longer existed, there was the flag of Yugoslavia on the municipality
9 building. And at that time, a decision was taken to take that flag down
10 because that state no longer existed and the decision was taken to raise
11 the flag of Republika Srpska because the Serbs were in the majority
12 there. So that decision was taken. Similarly, the symbols, the signs,
13 on people in uniform were changed on that day.
14 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Kalabic, do you remember the question?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The question was: Were there
16 significant troops involved in the Kljuc area and it had to do with
17 taking over power in Kljuc. That was the essence of the question, and
18 I think that I have mostly answered that question.
19 JUDGE KWON: What is your answer, Mr. Kalabic?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My answer is that there was no
21 significant army presence in Kljuc municipality. Power wasn't seized in
22 the municipality of Kljuc because the Serbs were in power in Kljuc. They
23 were in the majority, they had their president of the municipality and
24 they had a majority in the assembly, so there was no need for them to
25 take over power. And thirdly --
1 MS. McKENNA:
2 Q. Mr. Kalabic, I believe that's the answer to the question.
3 MS. McKENNA: Could we please have P3663.
4 Q. Your answer is there was no take-over of power in Kljuc and there
5 was no significant number of troops on the 7th of May.
6 MS. McKENNA: I'd like to see page 5 of the English and page 6 of
7 the B/C/S, please.
8 Q. And Mr. Kalabic, while we are waiting for those pages, I'd like
9 to explain that this is a military report regarding the activities of the
10 6th Brigade in the period relevant to our discussions. And at the very
11 top of the page in the B/C/S, you'll see that it states that from the
12 7th of May, 1992, to 10th of May, 1992, together with units from Kljuc, a
13 part of the 6th Brigade units, i.e. parts of the 1st and 3rd Battalions,
14 the Crni Djordje Intervention Platoon, a police platoon, and a
15 reconnaissance platoon participated in taking over power in Kljuc.
16 A. This is the first time I have heard something of this kind. This
17 is the first time heard about the Crni Djordje Platoon, and I can claim
18 with -- I can claim that there was no such thing in Kljuc. I don't know
19 if there was anyone around Kljuc, in the vicinity, but there was no one
20 in Kljuc and there was no take-over, that's for sure. The president of
21 the municipality was in his office. The flag was replaced, in front of
22 the window of his office, the Yugoslav flag was taken down and the
23 Republika Srpska flag was raised.
24 Q. Let's look at the announcement of the Kljuc Crisis Staff --
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, could we see further
1 references, further details? Who signed this document? Who issued the
3 JUDGE KWON: It's already in evidence.
4 MS. McKENNA: I can also refer Mr. Karadzic on this topic to
5 P3586 on the topic of the take-over and the 6th Brigade in Kljuc and the
6 take-over and declaration of the Serbian Municipality of Kljuc.
7 Q. Mr. Kalabic, I'd like to show you a document, the announcement
8 from the Kljuc Crisis Staff, that is your Crisis Staff, on the
9 7th of May, and that's P3497.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] While we are waiting for that,
11 your Excellency, I'm surprised, I don't know where this document comes
12 from because there is nothing that would justify its description as a
14 JUDGE KWON: We discussed it already and then it was admitted
15 into evidence. You can raise it in your closing argument, if necessary.
16 MS. McKENNA:
17 Q. So you'll see, Mr. Kalabic, this is a public announcement from
18 the Crisis Staff of the municipality of Kljuc and it's dated the
19 8th of May because it states in the first line:
20 "The Crisis Staff of the municipality of Kljuc hereby informs all
21 citizens that yesterday, on the 7th of May, certain changes were made in
22 the Kljuc Public Security Station."
23 What I'm interested in is at page 2 of the English and page 2 of
24 the B/C/S. And the third-to-last paragraph states:
25 "Citizens are informed that the increased presence of armed
1 forces on the territory of the municipality should not be understood as
2 an attack on the freedom of -- or safety of any nation."
3 So here, we see the Crisis Staff, of which you were a member,
4 telling people not to be alarmed because of the increased presence of
5 armed forces on the territory and yet you claim to be totally unaware of
6 the significant number of troops.
7 A. I really wasn't aware of the fact that there was an increased
8 presence of troops there, and this really wasn't noticeable in Kljuc,
9 that this announcement here was made as it was made, and that was the
10 situation. It has to do with the fact that only the flag was changed and
11 the signs or symbols that men in uniform were wearing were also changed.
12 Q. Mr. Kalabic, at paragraph 14 of your statement, you state that
13 during the war the municipal organisations of the SDS in Kljuc did not
14 meet. But do you agree, as is the evidence before this Trial Chamber,
15 that first the Crisis Staff and then subsequently the War Presidency met
16 regularly throughout this period?
17 A. The Crisis Staff did meet during this period, especially after
18 the 27th of May, five, six or 10 days later. But the municipal board of
19 the SDS wasn't functioning because there was a ban on the functioning of
20 the Serbian Democratic Party at the time.
21 Q. At paragraph 9 of your statement, you describe how Colonel Galic
22 informed the Crisis Staff that he had appointed Marko Adamovic commander
23 of the town defence. And you go on to say that the Crisis Staff involved
24 only -- was involved only in the matters of supplying people with food,
25 water and electricity rather than military matters.
1 On this topic, I'd like to show you P2643.
2 This, as you see, Mr. Kalabic, is a report of 29th July of the
3 Kljuc Municipal Assembly Crisis Staff War Presidency -- sorry, on the
4 work of the Crisis Staff War Presidency of the Kljuc Municipal Assembly
5 in the period from 15th of May, 1992, to the present.
6 MS. McKENNA: If we could go to page 3 of both the English and
7 the B/C/S, please.
8 Q. Now, I'd like you to focus on the paragraph beginning,
9 "Throughout the armed conflict ..." And it states:
10 "Throughout the armed conflict, representatives, commanders, of
11 the army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina regularly
12 participated in the sessions of the Crisis Staff and War Presidency.
13 These representatives were in command of and conducted combat activities
14 to defend the territory and citizens of the Kljuc Municipal Assembly
15 against Muslim extremists, and maintained good cooperation and
16 coordination with the Crisis Staff of the Kljuc Municipal Assembly. All
17 major questions related to the army and police were resolved within the
18 Crisis Staff of the Municipal Assembly. This period can be described as
19 one of very successful cooperation between the Crisis Staff and the
20 military organs in crushing the armed resistance by Muslim extremists."
21 So now, this is a more accurate account of the relationship
22 between the civilian and the military authorities; isn't that correct?
23 A. At that time, the Crisis Staff was standing in for the
24 Municipal Assembly of Kljuc because most of the deputies were indeed in
25 the units of the VRS all along the front lines. So it was very difficult
1 for them to convene or attend meetings. So the Crisis Staff was doing
2 the job of the assembly. And generally speaking, the Crisis Staff was
3 made up of people who were officials in the executive authorities, and
4 they did their jobs, their executive functions, in their own departments.
5 The army, on the other hand, had its own hierarchy.
6 Q. Mr. Kalabic, let me clarify my question. Do you agree, as you
7 did in your Brdjanin testimony, that there was cooperation, good
8 cooperation, between the civilian and military authorities at that time?
9 A. The cooperation between the Crisis Staff and the army existed
10 only in certain aspects, such as procurement of the members of the
11 servicemen's families, supplying food, ensuring that children can go to
12 school, that they have enough to buy flour. The Crisis Staff did
13 exclusively that sort of thing. And the army did its job, and functioned
14 along its own chain of command and hierarchy, to which they adhered very
16 MS. McKENNA: Could we please see P2606? I'd like page 3 of the
17 English and page 3 of the B/C/S.
18 Q. The document we are about to look at is a book of minutes from
19 sessions of the Kljuc Municipal Assembly Crisis Staff, and I'd like to
20 focus your attention on a passage from the 27th of May, 1992. And it's
21 number 10, point number 10 in this document. It's at the bottom of the
22 page in the B/C/S, and it states:
23 "The relationship between the military and civilian authorities
24 will be as follows: The military authorities will follow the orders of
25 the civilian authorities. The civilian authorities will not interfere
1 with the way they are followed."
2 So, Mr. Kalabic, that's the truth, isn't it? This was how the
3 cooperation worked in practice?
4 A. Maybe somebody wrote that but in practice it didn't work like
5 that. In practice, it worked completely differently. The Crisis Staff
6 did its own work and the army functioned along its own hierarchy.
7 Q. You and other members of the Crisis Staff wore military uniforms
8 and carried weapons; that's correct, isn't it?
9 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness be asked to speak into the
10 microphone, please?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After doing my military service, as
12 a young man, I became a member of the reserve police instead a member of
13 the Territorial Defence, and as such I was issued with a weapon and a
14 uniform. As a member of the Crisis Staff, I put on my uniform when
15 I went to tour units on the front lines, on the territory of the
16 municipality of Kljuc. I didn't wear it otherwise.
17 MS. McKENNA:
18 Q. All members of the Kljuc Crisis Staff and War Presidency wore
19 uniforms, didn't they?
20 A. No. Slobodan Jurisic never put on a uniform. Veljko Kondic
21 either. The president of the municipality wore a uniform because he was
22 a huge man, weighing over 150 kilos, and the uniform was more comfortable
23 for him than a jacket.
24 MS. McKENNA: Could we please have 65 ter 25682, and I'd like to
25 see page 140.
1 Q. And at line 15 of this testimony, your testimony in the Brdjanin
2 case, Mr. Kalabic, you say:
3 "For a time, at the very beginning, all the members of the
4 War Presidency, that is, the Crisis Staff, wore uniforms, and so did I."
5 And were you asked: "Why?"
6 And your response is:
7 "That was the decision, and I abided by it for the most part."
8 So that's the truth, isn't it?
9 A. That was indeed the decision, but it was not binding. And in the
10 first two days, the 27th and 28th, that indeed happened, but it didn't
11 apply to the majority of the people. I wore that uniform the first
12 two days, and after that only when I went to tour units.
13 Slobodan Jurisic, who was a member of the Crisis Staff, never put on a
14 uniform. Veljko Kondic, the president of the SDS board, never put on a
15 uniform. Dr. Dragan Smiljanic, member of the Crisis Staff, never put on
16 a uniform. And that's -- that's the truth.
17 Q. It's true, isn't it, Mr. Kalabic, that as a member of the
18 War Presidency, on the basis of a decision allowing you to move around in
19 uniform and carry weapons, you carried weapons; that's correct, isn't it?
20 A. I carried a weapon only when I went to tour military units, and
21 even then not every time.
22 MS. McKENNA: I'd like to tender these two pages, please,
23 Your Honour.
24 JUDGE KWON: Two pages?
25 MS. McKENNA: Oh, I'm sorry, once again, I have not -- I read the
1 passage from the second question.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we will add this page 140 [Realtime transcript
3 read in error "P142"] to Exhibit P6550.
4 MS. McKENNA:
5 Q. Now, it's also in evidence before the Trial Chamber that the
6 Crisis --
7 JUDGE KWON: I said page 140, e-court page 140. Please continue.
8 MS. McKENNA: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Q. It's also in evidence before this Trial Chamber that the
10 Crisis Staff and subsequently the War Presidency were involved in
11 establishing and equipping the 17th Light Infantry Brigade of the VRS.
12 And the references for that are P2643, P3455 and P3452. That's correct,
13 isn't it?
14 A. I didn't understand the question. Could you please repeat it?
15 Q. My question is: It's correct that the Crisis Staff and the
16 War Presidency were involved in establishing and equipping the
17 17th Light Infantry Brigade of the VRS?
18 A. I don't understand the question because I don't understand with
19 what the Crisis Staff or the War Presidency could equip a military unit.
20 A military unit needs uniforms, weapons, rolling stock, assets, all the
21 things the Crisis Staff did not have. I don't understand the question,
22 so I can't answer.
23 Q. The evidence of the type of -- the evidence of that equipment is
24 before the Trial Chamber, but I will move on. I'd like to focus on one
25 of the meetings between the civilian and military authorities.
1 MS. McKENNA: Could we please have P3590?
2 Q. Now, this is a meeting dated 14th of July, 1992, with presidents
3 of municipalities, and it is -- you'll see at page 1 that present at the
4 meeting are the commander of the 30th Partizan Division, Colonel Galic;
5 the commander of the 6th Partizan Brigade, Colonel Basara; at number 4,
6 the commander of the Kljuc TO, Bosko Lukic; at 5, the president of the
7 Kljuc Municipal Assembly, Jovo Banjac; and at number 11, you.
8 MS. McKENNA: Could we please go to page 2 of the English and
9 2 of the B/C/S?
10 Q. This is Colonel Galic briefing the participants on the AOR of the
11 30th Partizan Division and he states, in respect of Kljuc, after the
12 partial take-over of power, the situation in the territory of Kljuc
13 municipality is relatively calm. And he then goes on to describe the
14 various different units that were securing Kljuc at the time of the
15 take-over of power.
16 Now, the 9th Corps, the 5th Corps, these were the troops that you
17 earlier said you were unaware of; that's correct, isn't it?
18 A. I don't know about these forces. I don't know what they were
19 doing. And as for the 5th Corps, and the Light Brigade, I know they
20 existed. I know certain brigades existed such as the 30th Brigade near
21 Mrkonjic, but I cannot specifically now maintain that this one was in a
22 certain place or wasn't.
23 Q. Okay.
24 MS. McKENNA: Well, let's move to page 3 of this document,
25 please, in both the English and the B/C/S.
1 Q. And here, the document describes how the president of
2 Mrkonjic Grad Municipal Assembly presented the conclusions from the
3 meeting held in Banja Luka. And it states -- if you look in the next
4 passage, it states: The strategic goals formulated at the meeting in
5 Banja Luka were presented, and it goes on to list six strategic goals.
6 Do you see that?
7 A. Yes, I see.
8 MS. McKENNA: And then could we please move to page 4 of the
9 English and 4 of the B/C/S?
10 Q. And at the top of the page in the English, we see that the --
11 these are the conclusions that were proposed by Colonel Galic, and he
12 states: Implement the decisions from the meeting in Banja Luka but
13 submit them to the commands of units and municipalities.
14 So this is how the cooperation between the military and the
15 civilian organs in Kljuc happened in reality. The strategic goals that
16 were disseminated at the meeting in Banja Luka were then implemented by
17 the army and the municipality commands; that's correct, isn't it?
18 A. Municipalities did not have commands. They had their own
19 president, not commander. There was no such thing as commander of the
20 municipality. The civilian authorities cooperated with the army to the
21 extent I described. The Crisis Staff, that is to say the municipality,
22 helped the army by procuring food, footwear and clothing, to the extent
23 they were able to afford it. There was no other cooperation between the
24 Crisis Staff of the municipality and the army.
25 Q. Mr. Kalabic, that's not at all true, on the basis of this
1 document. This document shows that the civilian authorities were heavily
2 involved in coordinating and assisting the military in their shared
4 A. Not in terms of coordinating and assisting the military, but,
5 yes, the civilian authorities did receive some information.
6 Q. Now, you attended the 16th session of the Serbian Republic of
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina Assembly meeting on the 12th of May in Banja Luka,
8 didn't you? The 12th of May meeting that is the subject of this report.
9 A. Yes. I was present at the session in Banja Luka on the
10 12th of May, 1992.
11 Q. And then on the 14th of May, you briefed your colleagues in Kljuc
12 on the decisions and the reports from that session; that's correct, isn't
14 A. I can't remember but I suppose I briefed the people from the
15 municipality with the conclusions of that assembly session.
16 Q. Let's -- let's refresh our memory.
17 MS. McKENNA: Could we please have P3439. You'll see these are
18 minutes of the Kljuc Municipal Assembly Crisis Staff from the 13th and
19 14th of May. If we could go to page 2 in both the English and the B/C/S.
20 Q. And I'd like to focus on -- your attention on item 2, which
22 Jovo Banjac, president of the Crisis Staff, and Rajko Kalabic,
23 deputy of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina Assembly,
24 advised the members of the Crisis Staff of the positions and the security
25 situation in Kljuc municipality in connection with the decisions and
1 reports from a session of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina
3 And then just below that we see the conclusion, the report in
4 connection with the decisions and reports from a session of the Serbian
5 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina Assembly is adopted.
6 So that's what happened, isn't it? You went to the meeting, you
7 came back from the 12th of May Banja Luka meeting, you briefed your
8 colleagues on what had happened on that meeting, and you and your
9 colleagues adopted the decisions and reports from that assembly meeting.
10 A. I certainly briefed the people from the municipality with the
11 conclusions of the assembly, and I can't remember these decisions as
12 stated here, but probably there were conclusions involved at that
14 Q. Mr. Kalabic, I'd like to move on to a totally different topic.
15 At paragraph 23 of your statement, regarding adjudicated fact 2438, which
16 is -- which deals with Mr. Marko Adamovic ordering soldiers, through a
17 megaphone, in Prhovo, on the 1st of June, to set the village on fire and
18 kill women and children, you state that Marko Adamovic visited the
19 offices of the municipality on several occasions that day and could not
20 have been in several places. And you also state that, to your knowledge,
21 Mr. Adamovic was acquitted of any responsibility for that.
22 Now, yesterday, the Chamber heard from Mr. Adamovic that, in
23 fact, he's currently awaiting the verdict in his retrial, but I'd like to
24 focus on your previous testimony on this issue.
25 Now, in Mr. Adamovic's trial, the first time you testified on
1 this issue as a Defence witness for Bosko Lukic, you stated that you
2 remembered the incident of Prhovo very well because you were coming and
3 going from the office of Crisis Staff President Jovo Banjac, the
4 commander of the military police came in crying and said that a military
5 police officer had gotten killed, things had gotten out of control and
6 women and children had been killed. That's correct, isn't it? That was
7 your testimony.
8 A. I don't understand whether Jovo Banjac was going from one office
9 to another, coming and going. But as I said before, sometime in the
10 afternoon, an active duty officer came into Jovo's office, addressed
11 Galic and told him through tears that he had lost one military policeman
12 at Prhovo, and after that, he lost control over the military police,
13 which led to that incident in which a number of women, children and
14 elderly people got killed.
15 Q. The second time --
16 THE ACCUSED: May I?
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes?
18 THE ACCUSED: Must be some confusion with numbers. Paragraph 23
19 does not contain this what is said.
20 MS. McKENNA: Thank you, Mr. Karadzic, for that clarification.
21 I'm referring to paragraph 18 of the statement.
22 Q. Just to clarify, the second time you testified on this issue,
23 before the state court in Bosnia as a Defence witness for Mr. Adamovic,
24 you provided the additional detail that he was also present when the
25 military commander came in crying with this news. Is this the account of
1 events that you stand by today?
2 A. Your Honours, I must say that I'm getting the impression that
3 some things are being conflated here, and with your leave, I would like
4 to say exactly what I had stated. First of all, concerning my testimony
5 regarding Bosko Lukic, as far as I'm able to recall today, I don't think
6 Marko Adamovic was named in the Prosecutor's question so I didn't need to
7 talk about him at that time. And concerning Marko Adamovic, he was
8 mentioned as a possible, potential commander of the army in that area,
9 and I only said the things that are true. I know that on the
10 1st of June, 1992, on several occasions, he went into the office of the
11 president, Jovo Banjac, carrying a little agenda in his hand that he
12 always had, and in the afternoon, one active duty officer came into
13 Jovo Banjac's office - I can't remember if he was a captain first class
14 or just captain - turned to Colonel Galic and said, through tears, that
15 he had lost one military policeman and then he simply lost control as a
16 commander over the military police. And the military police then created
17 that incident in which a number of women, children and elderly people
18 were killed. That was my statement.
19 Q. Mr. Banjac -- or Mr. Kalabic, rather, I would like to show you
20 the account that you gave in the Brdjanin case in relation to this
21 incident seven years previously.
22 MS. McKENNA: And that is -- could we please have P --
23 65 ter 25682, page 151.
24 Q. You were asked:
25 "Were you aware that on the 1st of June, the village of Prhovo
1 was attacked?"
2 And you respond:
3 "I received that information later on. Not I, but we were
4 informed at the Crisis Staff about Prhovo."
5 You were asked:
6 Were you also told that the men who had been taken from the
7 village were separated from the women and lined up along the road towards
9 You said:
10 "At the Crisis Staff we did not receive such detailed
12 And you were asked:
13 "Well, did you receive information that some civilians, people
14 without arms, people under guard, were killed on that road?"
15 And you responded:
16 The information about casualties in that area we received later
17 on. But this information was not thorough. We didn't have the full
19 And you were asked specifically:
20 "Were you aware that women and children were killed during the
21 attack on Prhovo?"
22 And you say:
23 "I said that we received that information later on."
24 If we could just turn to the next page, and it's still in the
25 context of the discussion of these events, and you say at line 13 --
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection. It's not about these
2 events. It's about Velagici.
3 MS. McKENNA:
4 Q. Mr. Kalabic is asked:
5 "When you received this information, before we come to the
6 Velagici killings," and then they continue to discuss this incident. So
7 continuing to discuss this incident, you state:
8 "It was only after the event that the information reached us.
9 Whether this was on the same day or one or two days after the events,
10 I can't say."
11 So now, Mr. Kalabic, in contrast to your testimony at the
12 Adamovic trial in 2010, where you remembered very specific details and
13 your testimony today, in fact, where you remember extremely specific
14 details as to when and how you and Mr. Adamovic heard about the Prhovo
15 killings, in your testimony in 2003, you stated that you received
16 information that women and children were killed in Prhovo sometime after
17 the events, and whether it was on the same day or one or two days after
18 the events, you couldn't say. And your later account, your account that
19 you gave in the Adamovic trial and the account that you're giving this
20 Trial Chamber today, it's not true, is it?
21 A. Your Honours, on the 1st of June, 1992, I found out at the
22 president's office from an active duty officer who addressed Mr. Galic,
23 I found out what I already spoke about. As for additional information,
24 additional information, I mean, well, I did not have a lot of this
25 information that is being treated here today before this Court. Of
1 course, a day or two or three or -- days later, yes, of course, but
2 that's the real truth.
3 However, in the Brdjanin case, and in my answers to the
4 questions, no one was mentioned personally, so I could not have mentioned
5 the name and surname of a particular person who was being mentioned here
6 today because I had no idea that he was nearby. And I know where he was
7 at that point in time and I said that today before this Court, and
8 I stand by that statement.
9 MS. McKENNA: I'd like to tender pages 151 and 152.
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes. These will be added to the exhibit. Do you
11 have further examination?
12 MS. McKENNA: Your Honour, I know that I'm at the end of my time
13 but I would ask the Court's indulgence for some further time to use with
14 this witness.
15 JUDGE KWON: How much further? How much more time are you
16 talking about?
17 MS. McKENNA: I'd appreciate 30 minutes, but I'm in the Court's
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE KWON: We will take a break, after which I would like you
21 to try to finish in 15 minutes.
22 MS. McKENNA: Thank you, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber is minded to take a break for an hour.
24 Would there be any problem with the parties?
25 MR. ROBINSON: No, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, thank you. I appreciate it. We will resume at
3 --- Recess taken at 12.35 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 1.39 p.m.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. McKenna, please continue.
6 MS. McKENNA: Thank you, Your Honour.
7 Q. Mr. Kalabic, at statement -- at paragraph 34 of your statement,
8 you say that the treatment of Muslim civilians in a combat zone was in
9 accordance with the law and you cite the example of Velagici. I'd like
10 to talk about the incident that happened in Velagici on the 1st of June,
11 the same date as the incident in Prhovo that we've just been discussing.
12 And there is evidence before this Trial Chamber that men from the local
13 villages were instructed by the Serb authorities to come to Velagici for
14 certificates of freedom of movement to be issued to them, and so
15 following this order, a column of these men walked to Velagici holding a
16 white flag and presented themselves at Velagici school, and none of these
17 men who walked to Velagici were armed.
18 For the parties' reference that's P713, transcript pages 9121 and
20 Now, Mr. Kalabic, you heard of this incident on the day that it
21 happened, didn't you?
22 A. Yes. I heard about what happened at the end. However, I did not
23 fully understand that question, because in paragraph 34, I'm talking
24 about certain things, Pudin Han, Velagici, Krasulje, and I talk about the
25 population that was --
1 Q. Let me -- your evidence in paragraph 34 -- your statement is in
2 evidence. I'm asking you to focus on the events in Velagici on the
3 1st of June. Do you confirm that you heard of them on the day that they
5 A. As for my knowledge concerning Velagici, it belongs to the
6 following, what I will say now. As for combat in Velagici, there were
7 paramilitaries, Muslim paramilitary soldiers -- yes.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be allowed
9 to say what he's got to say rather than put a complicated question and a
10 twisted question seeking an answer.
11 JUDGE KWON: But when you asked "heard of them on the day," what
12 are "they"? It was -- you read out or summarised all the evidence. So
13 I'll allow the witness to continue. But please be brief.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the operations on the
15 27th of May, 1992, I mean these things happened at Velagici, since it was
16 known, I mean, that the Army of Republika Srpska would enter -- or,
17 rather, invite the paramilitaries to hand over their weapons, via
18 Radio Kljuc, the inhabitants of Pudin Han and Velagici were asked to seek
19 shelter in the area of Kljuc so that there would not be any undesirable
20 consequences. Most of the population, women, children, old men, people
21 who did not belong to the civilian defence, they sought shelter there and
22 they were protected there. After the operations at Pudin Han and
23 Velagici ended, the population was taken back to their villages on buses.
24 Now, my information as to what happened in Velagici itself is as
25 follows. In the Office of the President of the municipality, there was
1 General Galic and he asked the president of the municipality to send
2 buses to Velagici so that those people who had been brought in would be
3 picked up by two buses and transported to the area of the military
4 barracks in Manjaca. The bus drivers went to that area and returned very
5 quickly, upset, because they said that they did not find any living
6 people there. They found people who had been killed. Colonel Galic was
7 very upset. He swore. And that is the information I have.
8 What else do I know? I know that people who were appointed by
9 the military command to stand guard by that school where this happened, I
10 know that these persons were arrested --
11 JUDGE KWON: I asked to you be brief. I think you answered the
13 Please continue, Ms. McKenna.
14 MS. McKENNA:
15 Q. Mr. Kalabic, you've explained about this meeting with Mr. Galic.
16 Do you confirm that that happened -- I'm sorry. You've confirmed that on
17 the day of these events, you were told that every one of the people who
18 was held at Velagici had been killed. Do you also confirm that you
19 knew -- or that those people were unarmed?
20 A. I don't know that they were armed. On the contrary, what was
21 stated was that it was the members of the Territorial Defence who were
22 armed. If somebody was unarmed, that means that they had thrown away
23 their weapons when they surrendered or they had hidden them somewhere.
24 Q. And the people who were detained at Velagici school, who, as you
25 have testified, were all killed, those people were unarmed; isn't that
2 A. These people were armed during the combat operations, and as
3 prisoners they were unarmed. That is why this group that did that was
4 prosecuted. They were not supposed to do something like that.
5 Q. Do you agree, as you did in your Brdjanin testimony, that this
6 was the most appalling war crime?
7 A. Certainly, the killing of so many people can be considered a
9 Q. And despite your claim today that the people, the group that did
10 it was prosecuted, are you aware that after this appalling war crime,
11 rather than insisting that the perpetrators be punished, the Kljuc
12 authorities lobbied for charges against the perpetrators to be dropped?
13 For the parties' reference that's P3616.
14 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President, wouldn't it be more
15 accurate to name the person as opposed to the Kljuc authorities. It
16 seemed like my recollection of that exhibit there was one particular
17 individual. We don't know if he was acting on behalf of the authorities
18 or in his personal capacity.
19 MS. McKENNA: I'll move on.
20 Q. Moving to the incident at Biljani school on the 10th of July. In
21 paragraph 19 of your statement, you say that those who were rounded up
22 were found in possession of illegal weapons or suspected to have weapons
23 and were brought in to be processed, based on submissions that they were
24 members of the paramilitary forces.
25 Do you agree, Mr. Kalabic, that the killings at Biljani school
1 were also massacres, killings, of unarmed people?
2 A. Your Honours, the previous question remained unanswered and it is
3 very important. Would you allow me to answer?
4 JUDGE KWON: No. She just moved on. Can you answer this
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As for this question, I did not
7 have any knowledge about what was happening there, so I mean, I cannot
8 give any comment.
9 MS. McKENNA: Could we have page 154 of 65 ter 25682?
10 Q. And at line 13, you were discussing -- you were asked by the
11 Prosecutor, who said:
12 "... I'm talking about massacres, killings of unarmed people. Do
13 you remember Biljani school?"
14 You respond:
15 "I heard of the Biljani school. I believe that at that time,
16 I was -- I can't tell you where I was because I may not be right. But
17 I was either on the front line or I was at the assembly. It was only
18 upon my return to Kljuc that I heard that something like that had
19 happened in Biljani."
20 And the Prosecutor says:
21 Yes. There was an another almost identical massacre on the
22 10th of July at the Biljani school, wasn't there?"
23 And you say:
24 "Yes, that's exactly what I just said."
25 A. Your Honours, this statement of mine in the Brdjanin case can
1 fully be taken as such. I cannot say anything different now, different
2 to what I said then.
3 Q. In answer to question number 22, Mr. Kalabic, you state that
4 anyone who expressed their wish to leave Kljuc was allowed and enabled to
5 leave. For their own safety they were provided with organised transport
6 and escort to their destination. But it's true, isn't it, that it was
7 the policy of the Kljuc authorities that all Muslims, whether they wanted
8 to leave or not, should be cleansed from the municipality?
9 A. No, Your Honours, that is not correct. That was not the policy
10 of the municipality of Kljuc. As a matter of fact, I can refer to
11 Asim Egrlic's statement when he clearly said that the leadership of the
12 SDS in Kljuc was not made up of extremists and one could seek agreement
13 with them. So the Party of Democratic Action, what was it called now?
14 This Muslim Bosniak -- MBO, yes? They pointed out that the Muslim
15 population from the area of the municipality of Kljuc should move out as
16 soon as possible. The leadership of the municipality of Kljuc made every
17 effort not to have this done or, rather, to find a method on the basis of
18 which people would stay on in Kljuc rather than move out. Certain
19 decisions were made along those lines, and if the Prosecution asks me
20 about that I'm going to provide an answer.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 MS. McKENNA: Could we please have 65 ter 40138?
23 Q. This, Mr. Kalabic, is a video.
24 MS. McKENNA: And I'd like to see -- I'm sorry, it's 40138B. And
25 we are going to watch the footage from 54 minutes onwards.
1 [Video-clip played]
2 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "The political security situation in
3 the Kljuc municipality is quite complicated. We feel free to say that in
4 the last 10 days, the situation has improved somewhat so that the
5 situation is, one can say, calming down. One may say that the topic of
6 some normal life and business is arising and in the future we will secure
7 some normal way of life and business in the territory of the whole
8 municipality provided that certain system, as the economical and public
9 institutions will start functioning normally and life --
10 "Let me ask you frankly. Do you think that it's possible after
11 all these events that Muslims and Serbs live together in the area of your
13 "Generally it is difficult to answer this question. I mean, how
14 to assess such a matter. I think that life has to be totally ethnically
15 demarcated and the areas ethnically cleansed of those who cannot live
16 together in this area."
17 MS. McKENNA:
18 Q. Mr. Kalabic, do you recognise the individual in this video?
19 A. Yes. I recognise the president of the municipality, Jovo Banjac.
20 Q. And it's true, isn't it, that the policy of Mr. Banjac and the
21 Kljuc authorities was that the area be ethnically cleansed of Muslims?
22 A. No. That was not the policy of the leadership of the Kljuc
23 municipality at that moment. This was a personal view expressed by
24 Mr. Banjac which was never translated into any kind of official policy of
25 the municipality of Kljuc.
1 MS. McKENNA: Your Honour, I'd like to tender this excerpt.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we will receive it.
3 THE REGISTRAR: It receives Exhibit Number P6552, Your Honours.
4 MS. McKENNA: Your Honour, I have one very brief matter --
5 additional matter to deal with, if I could -- if we could move into
6 private session, please, as it relates to a confidential matter.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
8 [Private session]
11 Pages 44592-44593 redacted. Private session.
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
18 MS. McKENNA: And, Your Honours, thank you for your indulgence in
19 relation to the additional time. I have no further questions.
20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Karadzic, do you have any
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'll be very brief since the
23 Prosecution has taken up quite a lot of time.
24 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
25 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kalabic, you've been shown various
1 statements you made on various occasions here. On those occasions, were
2 the same sorts of questions put to you? Questions that you answered?
3 A. I couldn't say that the questions were completely identical.
4 Q. Thank you. On page 52, could you tell us the following: It was
5 suggested that the SDS municipal board was working and you were shown the
6 minutes from the session of the Crisis Staff. Could you tell us whether
7 the Crisis Staff of Kljuc municipality was a party organ or was it a
8 state organ?
9 A. The Crisis Staff of Kljuc municipality was a state organ, and it
10 replaced the work of the Kljuc Municipality Assembly.
11 Q. Thank you. On page 57, it was suggested that the Crisis Staff
12 participated in establishing the 17th Light Brigade and providing it with
13 equipment. Can you tell us the name that was used for the 17th Brigade?
14 How was it called?
15 A. The 17th Brigade, if that's what you have in mind, was called the
16 Kljuc Brigade, the 17th Light Infantry Brigade.
17 Q. Thank you. Who would take decisions on establishing brigades
18 within our system?
19 A. I'm not sure I can provide a precise answer to that question but
20 the decisions were certainly not taken by the municipal authorities. I
21 know that.
22 Q. Thank you. You said that it relied on the municipality for
23 logistics. According to our law, how is the matter regulated? Is it
24 unlawful, in fact, for area units to cooperate with the local
25 authorities, with the area authorities? How is it from a legal point of
2 A. It's not illegal. The local community has to provide logistic
3 support for the army that is on the territory, on its territory, and the
4 command of such a unit is part of the entire command chain of the Army of
5 Republika Srpska.
6 Q. Thank you. Did you go to the sessions of the Main Board of the
7 Serbian Democratic Party in Sarajevo?
8 A. Seldom. The president of the municipal board of the SDS usually
9 went there. I was someone -- sometimes there but it was not very
11 Q. Thank you. Were there any sessions that you regularly attended?
12 A. I attended sessions of the assembly on a regular basis. Maybe
13 I was absent on some occasions, I can't remember, but if that was the
14 case, it was for family reasons or for other reasons. But one could say
15 that I regularly attended those sessions.
16 Q. Thank you. And who dealt with the salaries -- or, rather,
17 payments for sleeping over and for the expenses incurred at the
18 Holiday Inn when we were there on an official basis?
19 A. I don't know because I usually did not sleep in hotels. I didn't
20 usually stay in hotels. I usually stayed in private flats, at the
21 Ciglane facility in Sarajevo.
22 Q. And where did the delegates, representatives, have lunch when we
23 had sessions held in the Holiday Inn?
24 A. I can't remember whether it was in the hotel itself or on the
25 premises of the BiH Assembly. I can't remember.
1 Q. Very well. Thank you. Here we see that on the 15th of February,
2 you were in Sarajevo. That's in 1992. Do you remember whether in
3 addition to the meeting on the 14th of February there was another meeting
4 on the 15th of February?
5 A. I can't remember that. I can't remember any such event.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see P1350 in e-court?
8 Could we please see page 4?
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Do you remember this 7th session of the Assembly of the Serbian
11 People of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
12 MS. McKENNA: Objection. The witness has just stated that he
13 didn't remember the meeting of 15 February.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I didn't ask whether he remembered
15 the session of the assembly but does he remember some sort of a meeting
16 on the 17th -- or, rather, on the 15th.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would have to have a look at the
18 document first and then I'll probably be able to answer your question
20 JUDGE KWON: Please continue.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do remember this agenda. I do
22 remember this assembly session.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us whether you reported to your organs
25 in Kljuc municipality on the session held on the 14th of February, the
1 session of the Main Board, or on the session of the Executive Board on
2 the 15th of February?
3 A. I think that my report concerns the session of the assembly that
4 was held on the 15th of February.
5 Q. Thank you. Now have a look at the agenda. Is there anything
6 here that was illegal, that was of a delicate nature?
7 A. There is no such thing in the agenda, nothing that would disrupt
8 the regular course of events.
9 Q. Thank you. Were you present at the session of --
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue that question.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Were you at the session of the Main Board on the 19th of
13 December, 1991, in Sarajevo? The plenary session of the Main Board.
14 A. I assume that that was the case, but I would have to refresh my
15 memory by consulting certain documents.
16 Q. Thank you. And during that period of time was some other session
17 held about which you reported?
18 A. Well, I can't remember that right now.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please show D86 now?
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Could you tell the Chamber which session these minutes refer to?
23 A. These minutes refer to the Assembly of the Serbian People in
24 Bosnia and Herzegovina.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe it is on page 4, so could
2 we please have a look at page 4 in the Serbian version now?
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Do you remember whether you attended this assembly session?
5 A. I think so.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see the previous page in
7 the Serbian version?
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Please have a look at this agenda and tell us: Is there anything
10 here that has to do with Crisis Staffs or with Variant A and B?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see the agenda in English
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is nothing in the agenda that
14 concerns Variant A and B, and there is nothing that concerns
15 Crisis Staffs either.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us, did you take any notes of
18 important matters or did you store everything in your memory?
19 A. Mostly I tried to remember things. I didn't take many notes. If
20 something was thought to be very important, then I would make a note of
22 Q. And after you had reported to the municipal organs, did any of
23 them keep the reports you submitted to them?
24 A. Well, my reports were very brief, and not particularly expansive,
25 and if there was anything in the minutes of the Crisis Staff or the
1 War Presidency, well, that's all there was. There was nothing else.
2 Q. Thank you. I only have one other question for you. Towards the
3 end of September 1991, when you gave a speech that you have been shown
4 here, well, could you tell us what the circumstances were like, what was
5 going on in Croatia, and what was going on in Bosnia and Herzegovina?
6 A. What I can say is that the war was raging in Croatia. On a daily
7 basis the JNA was attacked. It came to a halt to a certain extent and
8 then withdrew to a certain extent. It never really got engaged. That
9 was in Croatia. As I said, in Croatia, they used insignia that reminded
10 us of what happened in 1941. Those insignia and symbols also appeared in
11 Bosnia and Herzegovina. On one occasion, with a group of
12 representatives, we went to Krajina. We travelled to Krajina, and in
13 Vitez we had to go back. We stayed there for two days and, finally, we
14 managed to reach the territory of the Banja Luka municipality through
15 Zenica. We weren't able to get through because that's what the situation
16 was like. There were these people with these insignia and with weapons
17 and they wouldn't allow us to pass through.
18 In Bosnia-Herzegovina, there were two peoples who outvoted the
19 Serbian people at the assembly, it was a case of majorisation, they
20 issued a declaration, it was a case of outvoting. They mentioned a
21 referendum, holding a referendum on the independence of Bosnia and
22 Herzegovina. So the Serbian people were outvoted, and as a result, this
23 spread a significant amount of fear, and there were also certain other
24 consequences that were felt in other areas.
25 Q. Thank you. On page 28, you were asked about what was happening
1 there and you said that there were victims from the Second World War who
2 had been buried at the cemetery. Where had they been up until that point
3 in time?
4 A. The victims from the Second World War were buried there earlier
5 on too. I can't remember when this happened but those victims were
6 buried at that cemetery, in that cemetery. And in the former system, the
7 cemetery was always called the partisan cemetery, although no partisans
8 were buried there. The victims of terror spread against the Serbian
9 people in 1941 were buried there.
10 Q. And could you tell us whether the events that took place in 1941
11 and in September 1991 were events that the public was aware of or did the
12 public become aware of these events through your speech?
13 A. On that day, there were several speeches. My speech was referred
14 to because I'm testifying, but there were a number of speakers at that
15 meeting. There were quite a few people who were aware of these things,
16 but no one spoke about these things or no one would speak about those
17 things in public at the time.
18 Q. And my final question now, Mr. Kalabic, is as follows: Whenever
19 you were interviewed, did you ever consciously try to provide various
20 types of answers?
21 A. No, I never tried to provide answers of different kinds, and if
22 there were any divergences, any differences, it's not the essence of my
23 answer that was different. The main reason is that I didn't have the
24 relevant document at hand or it could be because of all the time that has
25 passed and, as a result, not everything can be remembered.
1 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Kalabic. I have no further questions.
2 JUDGE KWON: Unless my colleagues have a question for you, that
3 concludes your evidence, Mr. Kalabic. On behalf of the Chamber, I thank
4 you for your coming to The Hague to give it. Now you are free to go.
5 [The witness withdrew]
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps it's all right. In lines 2
8 and 3, he said that if there were any differences, they weren't
9 differences of an important kind, nothing substantially different was
10 said. But I think it's okay. I don't know whether there are any
11 linguistic differences. We could listen to this to see.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, bring in the next witness. Dobrijevic? Yes.
13 THE ACCUSED: I didn't mean we could listen to this but I thought
14 we were taking care of the minutes.
15 JUDGE KWON: They will be looked at. I see your point.
16 [The witness entered court]
17 JUDGE KWON: Would the witness make the solemn declaration.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
19 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
20 WITNESS: MILE DOBRIJEVIC
21 [Witness answered through interpreter]
22 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Dobrijevic. Please be seated.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 JUDGE KWON: And make yourself comfortable.
25 As you may know well, Mr. Dobrijevic, I must draw your attention
1 to a certain rule of evidence that we have here at the Tribunal before
2 you commence your evidence. That is Rule 90(E). Under this rule, you
3 may object to answering any question from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecutor or
4 even from the Judges if you believe that your answer might incriminate
5 you in a criminal offence. In this context, "incriminate" means saying
6 something that might amount to an admission of guilt for a criminal
7 offence or saying something that might provide evidence that you might
8 have committed a criminal offence. However, should you think that an
9 answer might incriminate you and, as a consequence, you refuse to answer
10 the question, I must let you know that the Tribunal has the power to
11 compel you to answer the question. But in that situation, the Tribunal
12 would ensure that your testimony, compelled under such circumstances,
13 would not be used in any case that might be laid against you for any
14 offence, save and except the offence of giving false testimony.
15 Do you understand that, Mr. Dobrijevic?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.
17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
20 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Dobrijevic.
21 A. Good day, Mr. President.
22 Q. I would just like to ask you to make a pause between question and
23 answer and we should speak slowly so that everything can be transcribed.
24 Did you give my Defence team a statement?
25 A. Yes, I did.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see 1D49040?
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Can you see your statement on the screen in front of you?
5 A. Yes, I can. Witness statement, Mile Dobrijevic.
6 Q. Thank you. Have you read through this statement and did you sign
8 A. Yes, I read through the statement and I did sign it, but there
9 are three minor corrections that I would like to make. They don't change
10 much but it has to do with my status. For example, in paragraph 2,
11 I work in the Special Prosecutor's Office from 2006 not 2009. So it must
12 have been a typing error.
13 Q. Thank you. So this is the penultimate line in paragraph 2, so it
14 should say from 2006?
15 A. Yes, instead of 2009, 2006. And can I use this statement that I
16 have on me? It concerns another error.
17 JUDGE KWON: By all means.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It will make it easier for me to
19 find my bearings. On page 5, paragraph 2.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Would you like to refer to the paragraph?
22 A. Paragraph 7. It's paragraph 7, item 9.
23 Q. Please go ahead.
24 A. Instead of the name Hadzic, the name or, rather, surname is
25 Avdic. I remembered this later. So the surname Hodzic or Hadzic should
1 be Avdic. Amir Avdic from the territory of Kljuc municipality.
2 And in paragraph 14, item 3, the first sentence, shall I read the
3 entire sentence out?
4 Part of the people taken to Manjaca were not interviewed and
5 I remained here with others on two occasions -- or I, together with the
6 others, on two occasions -- instead of "on two occasions," it should say
7 "on three occasions."
8 Q. Is that it?
9 A. That's all I have to say.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown the last
11 page, please?
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Is this your signature?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you. Can we say that, with these corrections, the
16 statement faithfully reflects what you've said to the Defence team?
17 A. Yes, absolutely.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I tender this
20 statement under Rule 92 ter.
21 JUDGE KWON: I take it the Defence is tendering one associated
23 MR. ROBINSON: That's correct, Mr. President. And also I would
24 ask that it be added to our 65 ter list as it wasn't on that list and it
25 was just discussed during the proofing when the witness arrived here in
1 The Hague.
2 JUDGE KWON: Good afternoon, Ms. Pelic. Do you have any
4 MS. PELIC: Good afternoon, Your Honours. No objections.
5 JUDGE KWON: We will admit both the statement and the document.
6 THE REGISTRAR: The statement receives Exhibit Number D4170,
7 Your Honours, and the associated exhibit, D4171.
8 JUDGE KWON: Please continue.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I shall now read in
10 English a short summary of the statement of Mr. Mile Dobrijevic.
11 [In English] Mile Dobrijevic was an inspector for the crime
12 prevention police in the SJB in Sanski Most. The ethnic composition of
13 the policemen in Sanski Most was proportional to the ethnic composition
14 of the Sanski Most municipality general population. However, the police
15 station was divided on the 6th of April, 1992, as the leadership at the
16 municipal level had agreed to divide the territory of Sanski Most in two
18 It was agreed that the Serbian policemen would remain in the SJB
19 and that the Muslims and Croats members could stay with there as well and
20 wear insignia prescribed by the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and
21 Herzegovina. However, most Muslim officers refused to wear the insignias
22 and decided to leave the SJB. Muslim officers forcibly entered the
23 premises of the Municipal Assembly and formed their own SJB.
24 Mile Dobrijevic was aware that the Serbian side took power in
25 Sanski Most peacefully and an offer was made to everyone, regardless of
1 their ethnicity, to stay and live in peace. The Muslims would not leave
2 the Municipal Assembly peacefully. However, they were -- there were no
3 casualties when the Serbian authorities took the building. Once the
4 Muslim SJB had left, weapons and some improvised mines and explosives
5 were found, including 1.000 barrels that had been stuffed with explosives
6 and pieces of scrap iron.
7 Mile Dobrijevic knew that the Muslims were arming illegally,
8 particularly after the results of the plebiscite and, as a result, the
9 SJB began calling people for interviews. From interviews, it was
10 established that the weapons were brought by two Muslims from Germany and
11 Croatia. These weapons were then distributed, and after this, the Muslim
12 side formed its command, companies of men were sent up, and patrol and
13 villages guards were also established.
14 On 25th of May, 1992, the political leadership of Sanski Most
15 made a decision that illegally owned weapons and military equipment
16 should be seized. The SJB were tasked with collecting certain pieces of
17 information and assisting the army in the seizing of illegally owned
18 weapons. A number of people voluntarily surrendered their weapons and
19 military equipment, and following this, the SJB started searching and
20 taking people into custody for -- who failed who respond to the voluntary
21 surrender of weaponry.
22 As early as March 1992, the SJB had information that Muslim women
23 and children were leaving Sanski Most and that able-bodied men were
24 staying behind. Mile Dobrijevic is aware of a collection centre in
25 Sanski Most where Muslims gathered voluntarily as they felt safe and
1 protected, and it was possible for all those who wished to leave
2 Sanski Most to do so, and they were not prevented from leaving.
3 Teams were formed at the public security station level in charge
4 of protecting abandoned property, preventing looting, destruction, and
5 the stealing of movable and immovable property. Serbian refugees were
6 then housed in these properties, and measures and sanctions were put in
7 place against people who unlawfully damaged property.
8 Mile Dobrijevic knows of no civilian authorities at the local or
9 municipal level committing, supporting or ordering the permanent removal
10 through genocide, persecution, extermination, murder, deportation or
11 inhumane acts, all the Muslims and Croats from those territories of BH to
12 which the Serbs laid claim.
13 Mile Dobrijevic that the crisis in the municipality escalated as
14 certain individuals had too many weapons and could not be -- that could
15 not be placed under control in a short space of time.
16 And that's a short summary. Now I will see for some additional
18 Is it embarrassing to stop today five minutes earlier?
19 JUDGE KWON: Given that we had a one-hour lunch break, the
20 Chamber is minded to go till 3.00, unless there is a serious opposition.
21 THE ACCUSED: No, I will try to catch up but I have some
22 confusion about documents. It will be resolved soon.
23 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, maybe we could take a five-minute
24 break. There were some additional exhibits that Dr. Karadzic didn't
25 bring with him. He doesn't have the copies, so they would have to be
1 printed out in order for him to use them.
2 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber sees no problem. We'll rise for
3 five minutes.
4 --- Recess taken at 2.40 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 2.48 p.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Mr. Dobrijevic, you were a professional policeman and inspector.
10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the answer.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. What was the procedure when you found out a murder had been
13 committed? What would you do, which steps would you take, in different
14 cases depending on the ethnicity of the victim and the perpetrator?
15 A. Not only murders, but all other crimes would be reported to the
16 duty service, and then men would go on the scene, conduct an on-site
17 investigation, collect clues and other evidence, prepare a record and
18 protocol in order to facilitate the identification of the perpetrator.
19 Not only in the case of murders but all other crimes, aggravated theft,
20 theft, and other offences, policemen would be involved and inspector. If
21 we are talking about murders, there was a crime prevention service that
22 would handle such cases, together with the prosecutor and the
23 investigating judge, because, at that time, the investigating judge would
24 also conduct investigations and would be present at the on-site
1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Dobrijevic, between the question and your
2 answer, please put a pause. Otherwise, the interpreters have
3 difficulties following your answer due to the overlap. So your previous
4 answer to the question whether you were a professional policeman and an
5 inspector was not duly reflected because there was no interpretation. So
6 your answer was yes?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I apologise.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Who reported criminal offences, let's say against Muslims and
12 Croats, if you obtained such information?
13 A. We usually found out on the basis of reports from certain
14 persons, or by observing them directly, like any other crime.
15 Q. What do you mean by "certain persons"? Did Muslims and Croats
16 come to you to report something that had happened to them?
17 A. Absolutely, if they had any problems, and if they were not the
18 victims of the crime, or perhaps somebody from the family would come. If
19 we are talking about a murder, then the victim cannot come and report the
20 crime himself or herself, and then we would come out to the scene. Or
21 sometimes it happened that the person was wounded, the victim would go to
22 the medical centre, and the medical centre, the emergency room, would
23 call our public security station and we would go to the medical centre to
24 see what it was all about, and later form a team that would go to the
25 scene, conduct an on-site investigation and take all the steps necessary
1 to identify the perpetrator.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D49033 is the next document
3 I would like to call up in e-court, please.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. In which period of the war did it happen, these Muslims and
6 Croats who came to you to report crimes?
7 A. There was no particular period. They reported crimes whenever
8 they could. What do you mean in which period? They reported crimes all
9 the time.
10 Q. Precisely. Can you tell us what is this document? You signed
12 A. Work plan in the detection of the criminal offence of murder,
13 specified in Article 36, murder committed against Hasan Selimovic on
14 12 July 1995 in a place called Kijevo.
15 Q. Can you tell us the ethnicity of the victim?
16 A. Hasan Selimovic, a Muslim.
17 Q. Thank you. In the plan it is envisaged that you check out where
18 his sons were, for a medical examiner to examine the body, on-site
19 investigation, preparing a record, conducting an analysis, et cetera.
20 Was this plan implemented?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Can you remember the outcome?
23 A. The perpetrator was identified. It was Bogdan Ristic.
24 Q. Was he prosecuted?
25 A. Prosecuted? I think he's now serving his sentence.
1 Bogdan Ristic later committed another crime or perhaps it was an
2 attempted murder, but the victim was injured in any case, so he was tried
3 one more time after this.
4 Q. What is the date of this plan?
5 A. 12 July 1995, plan made by Mile Dobrijevic - that's me - and plan
6 approved by chief of section, Slavko Stanic.
7 Q. What is the population of Kijevo?
8 A. Kijevo was a village with a majority Muslim population. We, the
9 public security station, had a constant presence or kept an eye on that
10 village. But speaking of this incident, this Ristic is also from Kijevo,
11 although he lived on top of a hill overlooking Kijevo, and he targeted
12 people whom he intercepted with his gun. Allegedly, his own son,
13 Ristic's son, had been killed and he was out for a revenge. In any case,
14 he was prosecuted.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tender this document to be MFI'd.
16 JUDGE KWON: When was he tried, Mr. Ristic?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After he was arrested, a criminal
18 report was written and then he was turned over to the prosecutor.
19 JUDGE KWON: I'm asking this question because you said he
20 attempted to commit another crime. So he was not arrested because of
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We did not have this knowledge at
23 that time. In the meantime, he attempted another crime so he was later
24 tried for both cases.
25 JUDGE KWON: When was he tried?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Probably later, because we see that
2 this is 1995. Ristic is now serving a prison sentence in Bihac. Now,
3 whether he was prosecuted in this period or after the 10th of October,
4 1995, after we had left Sanski Most, I cannot say.
5 JUDGE KWON: We will mark it for identification.
6 THE REGISTRAR: MFI D4172, Your Honours.
7 JUDGE KWON: Do you have further questions?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] A few more documents. If we are
9 going to extend the session, I am willing.
10 JUDGE KWON: How much longer it will take?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 15, 20 minutes probably.
12 JUDGE KWON: Then we will continue tomorrow.
13 Mr. Dobrijevic, I'd like to advise you not to discuss with
14 anybody else about your testimony. I take it you understand that.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand. Thank you.
16 JUDGE KWON: We will continue tomorrow morning at 9.00. Hearing
17 is adjourned.
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.00 p.m.,
19 to be reconvened on Friday, the 6th day of
20 December, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.