1 Friday, 6 December 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness takes the stand]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone. Yes, Mr. Harvey?
7 MR. HARVEY: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours. May
8 I introduce Carlos Fonseca Sanchez, who is from Colombia and a law
9 student at the El Rosario University Bogota. He's been with the team
10 since the 1st of June this year. Thank you.
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Mr. Karadzic, please continue.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Excellency.
13 Good morning to all.
14 WITNESS: MILE DOBRIJEVIC [Resumed]
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 Examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]
17 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Dobrijevic.
18 A. Good morning.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I hope, Excellency, that you are
20 aware of the reasons for the delay and that is beyond my control. Thank
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Mr. Dobrijevic, yesterday we were discussing the way crimes are
24 dealt with. Tell us, do you know whether a single crime was hushed up
25 from the level of the criminal police?
1 A. No, I'm not aware of any such thing.
2 Q. Thank you. Did you have any idea as to how many cases you had
3 solved and how many perpetrators had you found -- or, rather, in how many
4 cases did you establish who the perpetrators were?
5 A. There were reports compiled every day, but it's the criminal
6 register that can show the exact cases involved and that is where we
7 recorded everything.
8 Q. Thank you. Do you have any information as to how many cases were
9 completed before the judiciary during the war?
10 A. The police does not really have that kind of information, because
11 it is the court that is in charge of proceedings and sentencing. Only
12 once all of that is over, records are sent and compiled at the
13 Ministry of the Interior as well, in terms of the sentences concerned.
14 Q. Thank you. Yesterday we saw one of your plans of work with
15 regard to one particular murder case. Was that an exception or are such
16 plans always made?
17 A. Always a plan is made. In the case of grave crimes -- if the
18 Presiding Judge allows me to explain, we had a bit of a misunderstanding
19 yesterday, didn't we?
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please go ahead.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When we talked about compiling
22 reports, I did not finish that report because I was sent to the front
23 line. That is what prevented me from doing that. When I looked at the
24 dates I realised it then. In the beginning of September I went to the
25 front line, Novi Grad, and after that, the front line near Sanski Most
1 because by then there was fighting already around Sanski Most. That is
2 why a report was not filed in relation to the person I mentioned
3 yesterday. Otherwise, in operational terms, it was done. It's only the
4 fact that I was absent from the public security station.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Thank you, did anybody else go on with this work?
7 A. I don't know. Most probably. The entire documentation was there
8 and it could have been used for compiling a report and filing the report.
9 Q. Thank you. I don't know exactly what the number is, but there
10 are 30 cases here that the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that had been
11 dealt with at your police station. The document was created on the
12 24th of April, 2001. Maybe Mr. Robinson can tell us what the D number
13 is. The 24th of April, 2001, that's when the document was created. Do
14 you know how the Kaltak case was finished?
15 A. I don't know.
16 Q. Begic, found in the Sana river?
17 A. Could you expound on that? This doesn't really mean a thing to
19 Q. All right. Can you tell us -- can you remember the cases that
20 you worked on and that were completed?
21 A. I'll try to remember. It's been quite a while. Skucani Vakuf,
22 the murder of the Cehic couple and then four or five persons were wounded
23 too, in three houses, I believe. That case was completed. Four persons
24 were part of the report. Two persons with the last name of Mrdja, then
25 one person called Kokot, and then the fourth person was Bilbija --
1 Bilbija, yes.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] D1802, could we please take a look
4 at that in e-court? I believe that the participants can look at the
5 English themselves.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Please take a look at these first seven that are on the first
8 page. Could you read it to yourself and just tell us whether you know
9 anything about those cases yourself. These are cases that had already
10 been dealt with and that were found at the police station in
11 Sanski Most -- no, in the court, court. So this was already before the
12 court. It says Serb judges here.
13 Once you've read it, could you please tell us so that you can
14 have a look at the next page.
15 Are you familiar with any one of the cases on the first page?
16 A. No. Could we have the next page now?
17 THE ACCUSED: Next page.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Have you heard of any one of these cases? It's mostly Croats and
20 Muslims; right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Oh, yes, there are some Serb names too. Are you familiar with
23 any one of these cases?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Could you please take a look at the last page? Do you know that
1 after the war, on the basis of the work done by your service, these
2 prosecutions were completed rather than all of this had not been done in
4 A. We've already dealt with one of these cases that I referred to a
5 moment ago.
6 Q. You don't remember any one of these cases, Krupic, Jusuf, for
8 A. No. No, the entire documentation stayed on at the public
9 security station in Sanski Most.
10 Q. Thank you. We don't need this document any longer.
11 Could you please tell us, you mentioned some villages. Can you
12 tell us which villages were involved in fighting, Muslim villages? If
13 you like we can call up the map.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have the map of
15 Sanski Most? 65 ter 04898, please.
16 Could the witness please be assisted? Could he please be given
17 an electronic pen.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. And could you please mark the Muslim villages here where the
20 population stayed on throughout, and could you explain why?
21 A. [Marks]. Vrse, the village of Vrse.
22 Q. What was there? Who lives there?
23 A. Muslim population only, and all of them stayed on in Sanski Most
24 until 1995.
25 Q. So, could you please mark with the red pen all the villages that
1 stayed on throughout and where there was no fighting?
2 A. Okrec in part. Part of the population in Fajtovci. Just a
3 moment, please. Is this part here? Because basically local communes are
4 marked here. It's not proper villages that are marked here. Sehovci,
5 the entire population stayed on. And part of the population from some of
6 these places went to Sehovci and lived there from 1992 to 1995, Sehovci,
7 Sanski Most.
8 Q. Could I ask you who lived in the village of Gorice and whether
9 the population stayed on?
10 A. Gorice, Gorice likewise, is near -- above Fajtovci, on the
11 right-hand side.
12 Q. The village of Naprelje?
13 A. Part of the village of Naprelje, I've already marked that.
14 Cerici and that part should be there, near Fajtovci.
15 Q. You mentioned Fajtovci, Gornji Kamengrad, Donji Kamengrad?
16 A. Part of the population in Gornji Kamengrad stayed on, part of the
17 population, a smaller part of the population, Gornji Kamengrad. Sehovci,
18 everybody stayed on. I cannot find it there, Poljak ...
19 Q. The western part, right? I'm going to read out the names that I
20 have on my list.
21 A. Sehovci, part of Sanski Most, in the territory of the town of
22 Sanski Most, part of the population stayed on. Yes, Kijevo,
23 Tominska Palanka. Tominska Palanka and Tomina, adjacent.
24 Q. Could you mark that, please, east?
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. And what about Modra, Okrec, you've already mentioned it?
2 A. Okrec, the entire population stayed on. Modra, Modra, I'm not
3 sure about Modra.
4 Q. All right. Skucani Vakuf?
5 A. In part, part of the population stayed on.
6 Q. Demisevci?
7 A. I'm not sure.
8 Q. All right. Dzevari, Husimovci?
9 A. Husimovci, part of them stayed on after the voluntary surrender
10 of weapons. And collection of weapons. They left because all of them
11 had relatives in Germany, so they basically went to stay with these
12 relatives. Pobrijezje, quite a few people stayed on there.
13 Q. Stari Majdan?
14 A. Part of the population in Stari Majdan, a small part of the
15 non-Serb population stayed on in Stari Majdan as well.
16 Q. Thank you. Brdari?
17 A. Brdari is a Serb village.
18 Q. Trnova?
19 A. Trnova, I think that no one stayed in Trnova.
20 Q. Caplje and Zelenkovici [phoen]?
21 A. Caplje, part of Caplje stayed on, part of Caplje, a smaller part
22 of the population, non-Serb.
23 Q. Tell me, in these mentioned villages -- and if you're looking at
24 the map, could you please mark this with that red pen because we are
25 going to be needing the black pen afterwards. Was there any fighting in
1 these villages where these people had stayed on?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Thank you. As a police force, as the authorities, how did you
4 deal with these dangers? No, I mean the villages that surrender their
5 weapons, and that were part of your responsibility, if we can put it that
7 A. As for these inhabitants who stayed on and who voluntarily
8 surrendered their weapons, they were treated just like citizens who were
9 ethnic Serbs. On orders of Mirko Vrucinic, the head of the public
10 security station, police groups were established that provided security
11 for them 24 hours a day.
12 Q. In the form of what, patrols, what?
13 A. In the form of a permanent presence in that area.
14 Q. Thank you. With the excess of one murder in Sehovci and
15 individual murders, were there any attacks of any groups against these
16 villages that handed over their weapons, some units?
17 A. No. I don't know of any such thing.
18 Q. Thank you. Could the pen be changed now, different colour?
19 Could you now mark Muslim villages -- actually we have forgotten the
20 Croat ones, but the Croat ones are there too. Were there any Croat
21 villages that remained intact as well?
22 A. Yes, yes Croat villages remained intact too. And there were
23 persons from these villages who agreed to be soldiers of the Army of
24 Republika Srpska. They did so voluntarily.
25 Q. Thank you. Can you mark the villages where there was fighting?
1 Was there fighting in Klijevca, Hrustovo, Vrhpolje, and other villages?
2 A. And part of town Mahala and Muhici, armed conflicts.
3 Q. Thank you. Can you mark Hrustovo, do you see where it is?
4 A. It is not a readily legible map. These are hamlets, Kerani,
6 Q. Mark everything. I have a different map, the ERN number is
7 03565282, I don't know why they don't show that.
8 A. The territory of Kljuc municipality and all the way up to the
9 Sana river, that would be that part. And as for Vrhpolje, Hrustovo, and
10 Galaja forest, this is where they carried out that their manoeuvre and
11 crossed over from Vrhpolje to Hrustovo, i.e. Galaja, that belonged to
13 Q. Thank you.
14 A. And part of the Sanski Most town, Mahala, Muhici.
15 Q. If you see it, can you mark it, please?
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. Is this Hrast or Hrust?
18 A. No, no, Hrast is by the river, the Sana river, and this should be
19 here. Zdena is above it. [Marks].
20 Q. Thank you. You used the black pen where there were conflicts.
21 A. Yes, where there were conflicts.
22 Q. And for the remainder of the municipality, do you remember if
23 there were conflicts with the local population, with the local
24 paramilitary units from Sanski Most, I mean?
25 A. I did not understand you. Could you please repeat your question?
1 Could you please be more clear? I'm really not very clear on your
3 Q. When it comes to the rest of the municipality, did the military
4 and the police of the VRS get in conflict with the local paramilitaries?
5 A. No. But later on, in June, July, and partly August, some of the
6 formations that had remained behind, especially from Galaja, part of
7 those units that didn't go to Bihac tried to cross over to Bihac
8 illegally. And units from Prijedor also crossed Sanski Most which
9 resulted in certain incidents and crimes that happened and that were
10 committed by those groups. There was a murder, Mirko Dosenovic was
11 killed in the village of Fajtovci.
12 Q. Who was Mirko? Who killed him?
13 A. Mirko was an elderly local who lived in Fajtovci. He was killed
14 there, close to Bliha waterfall. I was an inspector on site. A woman
15 was wounded, the perpetrator was unknown, and based on the statements of
16 the eyewitnesses, the survivor and the woman who was with her, stated
17 that they had seen a group of five to six armed men, some wore military
18 uniforms, the other wore civilian clothes, they were armed and they
19 strangled Mirko and left him there. They wounded that woman, they
20 inflicted a serious bodily harm on her, but she survived. First she was
21 treated in Sanski Most and then in Banja Luka.
22 Q. And Mirko, what was his ethnicity?
23 A. All those villages were of Serb ethnicity. Mirko Dosenovic was
24 also Serb.
25 Q. Thank you. Are you familiar with the book, "A Crime is a Crime,"
1 by Zilhad Kljucanin and Hazim Akmadzic?
2 A. Yes, yes. I knew Zilhad personally. We went to the same school.
3 He was a bit younger. I believe that he was born in 1961. He graduated
4 from the grammar school in Sanski Most and then he went on to study in
6 Q. And what he says about Hrustovo, Vrhpolje, and the existence of
7 those units, does it tally with what you know about all that?
8 A. In that book, he describes Mehmed Alagic as a big hero and army
9 leader, and the part that concerns the Serbian population including
10 myself is mostly lies.
11 Q. Thank you. Now I'm going to read one -- a number of names of
12 prominent Muslims, did you know them? Did they stay on in Sanski Most
13 throughout all that time? Selman Velid, a history teacher?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Smail Sarcevic, teacher?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Nusret Krupic, a merchant?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Omer Krupic, president of the MO or, rather, the local board of
20 the SDA?
21 A. No, I didn't know him.
22 Q. Mesud Sabic?
23 A. Yes. He was the secretary of the health centre, and later on I
24 believe that he was the head of the Sanski Most municipality.
25 Q. Dr. Savanda?
1 A. Dr. Savanda worked all that time. He went to on-site inspection
2 with us. He inspected the corpses.
3 Q. Meliha Alisic?
4 A. She was Dr. Savanda's wife. Her entire family stayed on.
5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness and the accused please slow
7 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Both of you are required to slow
8 down and put a pause. Mr. Dobrijevic, if you could repeat your answer,
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Meliha Alisic, this is where we left it off.
12 A. Yes, I know her. She was Dr. Savanda's wife. She lived in
13 Sanski Most all the time. She was a nurse. And Savanda worked with us.
14 He was an employee at the health centre. He went with us to inspect the
15 bodies and to carry out on-site inspections together with us.
16 Q. Sulejman Tulundzic?
17 A. He was a football referee. I know him very well and he was in
18 Sanski Most all the time.
19 Q. Hamid Ceric?
20 A. Yes, he lived in Sanski Most all the time. He was football
22 Q. Ismet Cehajic, the head of dentistry?
23 A. Yes. I know him. He lived in Sanski Most all the time.
24 Q. Senad Burnic from Husimovci?
25 A. Yes, I know him really well. We played together in the same
1 football team.
2 Q. Kadir Smajlovic?
3 A. Yes. He was a policeman. He was my colleague. He was my
4 neighbour as well. He lived in Sanski Most all the time with his family.
5 Q. Uzeir Smajlovic?
6 A. He remained in Sanski Most all the time. He was a merchant,
7 actually he was a butcher. He owned a butcher shop.
8 Q. Fehim Jakupovic?
9 A. From Kamengrad?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. Yes. He stayed on all the time.
12 Q. Donji Kamengrad?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Ismet Ramic? Mico Meskanov, that was his nickname?
15 A. Ismet Ramic, yes, he was in Sanski Most all the time.
16 Q. Farko and Faido Alisic?
17 A. Those were brothers, the brothers of Dr. Savanda's wife and they
18 lived in Sanski Most.
19 Q. They were karate fighters?
20 A. Yes, Faido was a karate fighter.
21 Q. Reuf Hodzic?
22 A. Reuf Hodzic, also known as Nanija, he worked all the time in the
23 payment transaction institute.
24 Q. And Aziz Zulic, Ahmed Zulic's father who testified here, did he
25 live in Sanski Most all the time?
1 A. Yes, in the hamlet of Pobrijezje.
2 Q. And Emsud Kamber?
3 A. Doesn't ring a bell.
4 Q. Very well. Mumin Ceric, Mesa Hazic, Fajko Hazic --
5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please be asked to read the
6 name slowly.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. I don't have to read the names as a matter of fact. How come
9 that they all stayed on? What is the difference between those who stayed
10 on and led a normal life and those who left? Or who were taken to
12 A. Could you please explain, what difference are you talking about?
13 Q. Could you please tell us what the difference was between those
14 who stayed in Sanski Most and those who left?
15 A. Certain people left Sanski Most, if they wanted to leave, and if
16 they had somewhere to go. Those people who stayed could work, could move
17 around freely, and enjoy the same conditions as the rest of us who lived
18 there. We lived under the same conditions.
19 You also mentioned Manjaca, did you not?
20 Q. Yes. What was the grounds for somebody to be arrested,
21 investigated and eventually, some of them, taken to Manjaca?
22 A. Because they were -- had military fire weapons, they organised
23 rebellions, they prevented the movement of the military, and certain
24 crimes that targeted mostly the army.
25 Q. Thank you. Of those who were arrested and investigated in
1 Sanski Most itself, do you know how many of them were released after the
2 initial triage and how many were eventually sent to Manjaca?
3 A. A majority were released. Many more were released than were sent
4 to Manjaca and they continued to live -- lead a normal life in
5 Sanski Most. Or they could leave if they so wished.
6 Q. Thank you. When Radio Sana announced that civilians from Mahala
7 should gather at the stadium, were they arrested there, at the stadium?
8 A. I don't know that.
9 Q. Thank you. Could you please put today's date on the map and
10 could you please initial the map?
11 A. [Marks]
12 JUDGE KWON: We will admit it as a separate Defence Exhibit.
13 THE REGISTRAR: It receives Exhibit Number D4173, Your Honours.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Thank you. I have quite enough of the documents that you signed
16 but I don't have that much time. I suppose that we will have to take an
17 expert or a witness to classify all that.
18 Thank you very much, Mr. Dobrijevic.
19 A. Thank you, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Pelic?
21 MS. PELIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
22 Cross-examination by Ms. Pelic:
23 Q. Mr. Dobrijevic, your first name is Mile and your nickname is
24 Mima; right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And your father's name is Mitar; correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And on 24th of May, 2006, you testified as a Prosecution witness
4 in the case of Nikola Kovacevic, also known as Danilusko Kajtez, before
5 the State Court of Bosnia-Herzegovina, didn't you?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you testified under an oath to tell the truth; correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. In your statement at Question No. 7, you stated that on
10 25th of May, 1992, there was a decision of the political leadership of
11 Sanski Most municipality to seize illegally owned weapons and military
12 equipment from people; right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. This decision of the Sanski Most leadership was an implementation
15 of a previous decision of the government of the Autonomous Region of
16 Krajina on mobilisation and disarmament of paramilitary formations and
17 individuals who illegally possess weapons and ammunition, wasn't it?
18 A. I don't know who issued that decision. However, we complied with
20 Q. And you are aware, were you not, that radio broadcasts calling
21 for surrender of weapons specified Muslims and Croats, who didn't have a
22 chance against the Serbs; right?
23 A. I'm not aware of that. And let me explain why, if you will allow
25 Q. Yes, please.
1 A. At that time, I was involved in investigations and in our offices
2 we did not have radio sets, so I was not a position to listen to any
3 radio broadcasts or anything else. So I really don't know anything about
5 Q. Let's see if I can maybe refresh your memory.
6 MS. PELIC: Could we please call up P00725? This is a broadcast
7 of the Sanski Most radio and I would like to play a time code starting in
8 1 minute and 7 seconds to 1 minute and 40 seconds. And for the benefit
9 of the interpreters, that could be found at transcript pages 1 of both
10 B/C/S and English.
11 [Audiotape played]
12 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "... Budimlje, and as well as all of
13 the hamlets around these villages, which have not handed over their
14 weapons, to hand them over to the nearest military unit straight away.
15 Any resistance and opening of fire on members of the Army of the Serbian
16 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina who provoke an armed attack on that
17 village, resulting in great material damage and human casualties for you.
18 You do not have a chance in armed combat, so keep a cool head."
19 MS. PELIC:
20 Q. This broadcast is only calling for the surrender of weapons of
21 non-Serbs, isn't it?
22 A. I did not understand everything, but if you say so, that was the
23 case; right?
24 Q. And following the deadline on surrender of weapons, the non-Serb
25 settlements of Mahala, Vrhpolje and Hrustovo were attacked; right?
1 A. Those were armed conflicts.
2 Q. And although no significant amount of weapons were found,
3 thousands of civilians were captured and Muslims' houses were destroyed
4 and burned down; correct?
5 A. I wouldn't agree with you. And if you will allow me, I will tell
6 you why.
7 Q. Yes.
8 A. In Vrhpolje, there was a training camp for non-Serbs, i.e.
9 Muslims. The person in charge of the camp was Amir Avdic, the former
10 JNA captain. They were well-armed, well-trained, and a lot of people
11 gathered there from Sanski Most and from Kljuc. And they had a very good
12 unit and a very well-armed unit. There are records of that as well as
13 reports and notes, and everything else. The commander of that unit was
14 Avdic. His deputy was Hukanovic, Hukanovic whose first name was Arif.
15 The commander of the Intervention Platoon was Ifet Hukanovic, and there
16 were a few others. I could give you the name of all those who were
17 well-organised and who put up armed resistance. They had crossed over
18 from Vrhpolje to Galaja, that part belongs to Hrustovo.
19 During combat, a certain number of Serb soldiers were captured
20 and negotiations ensued, and with the mediation of UNPROFOR, 150 of them
21 in three buses were transferred to Bihac together with their weapons.
22 And one part of that unit headed by Arif Hukanovic remained fighting as
23 guerrilla fighters.
24 MS. PELIC: Could we please call up P03928? Thank you.
25 Q. This is Sanski Most SJB report on the process of disarming
1 paramilitary formations in the Sanski Most SJB area dated
2 15th of June, 1992. And let's take a look at paragraph 2 of this report,
3 it states:
4 "The action of peaceful disarming and surrendering of weapons was
5 carried out in the period between 10th of May and 25th of May. During
6 that period, the Muslim and Croatian population handed over only hunting
7 weapons and other legally owned weapons, but illegally obtained military
8 weapons were not surrendered and were concealed, buried on instructions
9 from above."
10 This is what happened in Sanski Most municipality; right?
11 A. In Mahala and Muhici.
12 Q. And this peaceful surrender of weapons was followed with the
13 attacks on Muslim neighbourhood of Mahala, villages Vrhpolje, Hrustovo,
14 and which resulted in a high number of captured non-Serb civilians and
15 the large-scale destruction; right?
16 A. I don't know that.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes?
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There should be quotation marks.
20 Disarmament should be in quotation marks meaning that just the opposite
21 is true.
22 JUDGE KWON: You're not giving evidence, and --
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But this is a quotation.
24 JUDGE KWON: These inverted commas could be seen by the witness.
25 He has the document in front of him. Please continue.
1 MS. PELIC: Just for the record, I wasn't quoting that paragraph
2 that Mr. Karadzic is mentioning but second paragraph.
3 Q. And now can we please take a look at the following paragraph
4 which is the third paragraph? And it states:
5 "On 25th of May, 1992, this 'disarming,'" under quotations, "was
6 followed by a military action attack against the downtown neighbourhood
7 of Mahala which resulted in the capture of 2.000 civilians but no
8 significant amount of weapons have been found because they had been
9 concealed earlier. Several days later, there was a synchronised attack
10 on the Muslim villages of Vrhpolje and Hrustovo. On that occasion, a
11 Muslim force of about 800 men was broken up and militarily defeated while
12 the houses were destroyed and burnt down.
13 So the report of the Sanski Most SJB, the SJB that you worked
14 for, confirms that these attacks on non-Serb settlements resulted in a
15 high number of captured non-Serb civilians and a large-scale destruction,
16 doesn't it?
17 A. The terminology that was used in the document is not good but the
18 document is what it is. I have a problem with the terminology. There
19 were no arrests of civilians. There was no need to arrest civilians.
20 Who is the author of this document? I really don't understand.
21 Q. Well, take a look at the last page, please. That's the SJB
22 chief, Mirko Vrucinic. Both in B/C/S and in English. Correct?
23 A. No. Somebody signed this on behalf of Mirko Vrucinic. He didn't
24 do it himself. Please take a closer look. You will see the word "Za"
25 and "chief" and then somebody's signature.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we also see the stamp? Could
2 the stamp please be displayed and enlarged?
3 MS. PELIC:
4 Q. Mr. Dobrijevic, this is the stamp of the SJB Sanski Most;
6 A. Well, we would need to provide an expert opinion on that because
7 on the basis of this, I really cannot tell whose stamp this is.
8 JUDGE KWON: I don't follow this. Could we collapse the English?
9 But before we do that, it's a usual thing, somebody else signs something
10 on behalf of the chief?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes --
12 JUDGE KWON: Why don't we zoom in --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- but this here, Mirko.
14 JUDGE KWON: And I take it that you are arguing that this
15 document is fabricated?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no, no, no, I cannot state
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Do you agree that this is an SJB stamp?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This document should be submitted
20 to a handwriting expertise. I cannot say whether it is that stamp or
21 not. I would not want to go either way in my opinion or just -- or
23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please be asked to repeat his
25 JUDGE KWON: The interpreters didn't hear your intervention, but
1 I would ask Ms. Pelic to continue.
2 MS. PELIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
3 Q. I would like to move to the detention facilities and
4 interrogations of the detained non-Serbs.
5 At questions 11 and 12 of your statement you state that the type
6 of persons who were taken into custody and that the -- the facilities
7 they were taken in which included Betonirka and the gym at the
8 Hasan Kikic school. In your BiH testimony, you testified to
9 Drago Vujanic, an employee of the Sanski Most SJB, was in charge of
10 prisons of Hasan Kikic and Betonirka; is that correct?
11 A. A correction. It's not Hasan Brkic but it's Hasan Kikic, in the
12 Mahala street -- no, no, in the Kljucka Street, Hasan Kikic. Yes, for a
13 brief period of time, it was a kind of collection centre or investigation
14 centre, for a very brief period of time.
15 Q. And Drago Vujanic was a chief of those prisons at the time and he
16 was an employee of the Sanski Most SJB; correct?
17 A. Yes, Drago Vujanic was an employee at the Sanski Most Public
18 Security Station and he was in charge of the people who were detained
19 there, yes.
20 JUDGE KWON: I take it that the parties and the staff were
21 waiting from 9.00 so I think it's time to have a break. We will have a
22 break for half an hour and resume at 11.00.
23 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.
24 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.
25 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Ms. Pelic.
1 MS. PELIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
2 Q. Sir, just before the break, you confirmed that Drago Vujanic,
3 employee of the SJB Sanski Most, was in charge of the Hasan Kikic and
4 Betonirka prisons. And Mr. Vujanic was appointed warden of these prisons
5 by the Crisis Staff of the Serbian Municipality of Sanski Most, wasn't
7 A. Most probably yes. I don't know. He was aware of the document
8 that he signed and what it is. We each get the decision individually, so
9 I really couldn't say "yes" or "no" to that.
10 MS. PELIC: Could we please call up P02639?
11 Q. Sir, these are conclusions of the Crisis Staff of the
12 Serbian Municipality of Sanski Most dated 4th of June, 1992. And if you
13 take a look at item number 2, it states:
14 The Crisis Staff hereby decides to appoint Drago Vujanic prison
16 That's correct?
17 A. That's what it says.
18 Q. Sir, you were one of the SJB Sanski Most's employees who
19 interviewed these detained persons, weren't you?
20 A. Yes. That's right.
21 Q. And in order to interview them, you went to Hasan Kikic school
22 and to Betonirka too; correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. People were brought to these prisons in -- by both the army and
25 the police without any basis, without any need; correct?
1 A. Well, I can't quite agree with your assertion. I mentioned this
2 earlier: Those who were brought in were those who had military weaponry
3 or who took part in organising rebellions, attacks on the army and so on
4 and so forth. Mostly those persons were the subjects of an
5 investigation. It could have happened that someone was perhaps not
6 involved in that, but then those persons would be interviewed or
7 interrogated and then released.
8 Q. In your BiH testimony at - that's 65 ter 25714, English page 51
9 and B/C/S page 41 - you testified, and I quote:
10 "Maybe not all rules were obeyed at the time, since some of these
11 people were -- we could not -- I could not even explain myself how they
12 got there, who brought them in and how. Simply, some citizens were
13 brought in by the army, some by the police, without any knowledge on our
14 part and, in my opinion, without any need."
15 That is correct, isn't it?
16 A. Well, yes. I provided a similar answer here also.
17 Q. Now, these persons who were captured were placed in three alleged
18 categories. First one, politicians; second one, nationalist extremists;
19 and third one, persons unwelcome in Sanski Most municipality. Correct?
20 A. Well, I don't know about that. I was in charge of
21 investigations, so our investigations mostly focused on military
22 organisation, procurement of military weapons, attacks on the army,
23 interfering with army movements and so on and so forth.
24 Q. Could we please -- could you please take a look -- the document
25 is still on, it's P02639. Please take a look at item number 1 and it
2 Mirko Vrucinic, Nedeljko Rasula, and Colonel Anicic shall be in
3 charge of resolving the issue of prisoners and their categorisation and
4 deportation to Manjaca. First category, politicians. Second category,
5 nationalist extremists. Third category, people unwelcome in Sanski Most
7 This document reflects what you and your SJB colleagues' task was
8 at the time, not to determine if the detained non-Serbs committed
9 criminal offences but to categorise them and deport them to Manjaca
10 pursuant to the conclusions of the Sanski Most Crisis Staff; right?
11 A. Conclusions are conclusions. However, I said what it was that
12 I did. I cannot speak here on behalf of the people that you refer to
13 here. I was just telling you how I proceeded and what I did. I did not
14 make any decisions about subsequent triage, as I would refer to it.
15 Q. Mirko Vrucinic was the chief of the SJB at the time and your
16 boss; correct?
17 A. Dragan Majkic and then Mirko Vrucinic. On the 4th of June, it
18 was Mirko Vrucinic, yes.
19 Q. Sir, many, if not most, of these detained civilians were from --
20 there was no evidence that they convicted or participated in the
21 so-called armed rebellion, haven't they?
22 A. I wouldn't agree with that. Most of them possessed weapons or
23 took part in the armed rebellions or attacks on the army or preventing
24 army movements and so on and so forth, which, in itself -- the fact that
25 we confiscated over 1.000 pieces of illegally obtained weaponry speaks
1 for itself. Plus explosives, explosive devices, other combat equipment.
2 MS. PELIC: Could we please call up P03929?
3 Q. Sir, this is the 1st Krajina Corps command state of combat morale
4 in the 1ST KK Unit for August 1992 report and it's dated 3rd of
5 September, 1992.
6 MS. PELIC: And if we could go to page 3 in English, bottom, and
7 page 4 in B/C/S.
8 Q. In B/C/S you can see it at the bottom, last paragraph. And
9 I quote:
10 "Certain tensions are still present in Kotor Varos, Kljuc,
11 Sanski Most, and Prijedor areas because of a large number of arrested
12 citizens for whom there is no evidence or criminal reports that they
13 participated in the armed rebellion."
14 Sir, this report reflects that even as late as August 1992, there
15 were still large numbers of innocent civilians detained, weren't they?
16 A. This is a military document. An error was made because no
17 criminal reports were written for those who possessed military weapons
18 and other items, and for that reason, this is the reason why this
19 document was written in the first place. I would perhaps agree to a
20 certain extent because we did not write up criminal reports for those who
21 possessed weapons and other types of combat equipment or ammunition.
22 Q. Indeed, of these many, many prisoners, only one, one was charged
23 with a criminal offence in the period from the commencement of the
24 conflict until, let's say, late August 1992; right?
25 A. Who are we talking about?
1 Q. This is something you testified in your BiH testimony, and that
2 could be found at 65 ter 25714, English page 25, lines 6 to 18, and B/C/S
3 page 18, middle. You were asked how many of these prisoners were charged
4 with criminal offences starting from April 1992 until late August 1992?
5 And you testified: Only one.
6 That's correct?
7 A. Correct. We set off by writing criminal reports but then the
8 conflict broke out, and in that period the courts were not working. For
9 that reason, we only drafted official notes and suggested that these
10 people would be processed criminally, but I don't know why this never
12 Q. And of those people, mostly Muslims and a few Croats were shipped
13 to Manjaca and they were not interviewed; right?
14 A. I don't understand the question. Could you please clarify? A
15 number of people went to Manjaca who were not interviewed. Most of them
16 were interviewed. A number of persons who were transferred to Manjaca
17 were transferred there from Sanski Most because the conditions were
18 better. Later, we went to Manjaca and did interview those people. So
19 I was there.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat what he said?
21 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Dobrijevic, could you repeat what you said?
23 After you said: "We went to Manjaca and interviewed those people."
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A number of persons who were not
25 interviewed in Sanski Most but were transferred to Manjaca were
1 interviewed. We went there as investigators and talked to them. Also,
2 if we needed to clarify some details with people who had already been
3 interviewed about the illegal movement of weaponry and so on, we did that
4 as well.
5 MS. PELIC:
6 Q. And those people were mostly Muslims and Croats; right?
7 A. Mostly.
8 Q. And you testified in your BiH testimony that - that could be
9 found in 25714, English page 24, lines 8 to 15, and B/C/S page 17, in the
10 middle - that the reason for this was, and I quote:
11 "Well, it was a large number of people so most probably they
12 could not all be interviewed. There was no time. But they were not
13 interviewed most probably because of the workload and the number of
14 people who were transported up there."
15 It is correct, sir, that it was a large number of people who were
16 transported to Manjaca without any interview?
17 A. There are lists, precise -- with precise numbers of people who
18 were interviewed and those who were not interviewed. How could we have
19 talked with such a large number of people in Sanski Most? So there is a
20 document stating precisely the number of people who were not interviewed.
21 Most of the people, though, were interviewed in Sanski Most.
22 Q. I would like to turn now to how these detainees were treated in
23 detention facilities. At question 13 of your statement you state that
24 you and your colleagues treated everyone professionally, very humanely
25 and within the limits of your powers. But, in fact, Mr. Dobrijevic, you
1 were involved in inhuman treatment of detainees; right?
2 A. No, that is not correct.
3 Q. And, sir --
4 MS. PELIC: I would like to tender previous excerpt of his
5 testimony that was used. It's 65 ter 25714, English page 24, lines 8 to
6 15, and B/C/S page 17.
7 JUDGE KWON: Did we look at it?
8 MS. PELIC: If we could call it up. Thank you.
9 Q. Sir, this is your BiH testimony in the Kajtez case, and if you
10 look in the middle of the B/C/S and English lines 8 to 15, you testified
11 that it was a large number of people who were not interviewed and
12 transported to Manjaca; isn't that correct?
13 A. Perhaps the quote is incorrect, but it wasn't a large number of
14 people who had been transferred to Manjaca who had not been interviewed.
15 There are lists of people who were interviewed. They were listed by name
16 and these lists are at Manjaca and at the police station.
17 JUDGE KWON: Please do not overlap with the interpretation. Yes,
18 could you repeat your intervention?
19 THE ACCUSED: As usually, the translation is not adequate. It
20 was not said in original "a large number of people" but part, part, some
21 of them.
22 MS. PELIC:
23 Q. Sir, could you please read from the middle your answer starting,
24 "Well, it was a large number of people ..."
25 A. It was a large number of people so probably not all the people.
1 MS. PELIC: I tender this excerpt, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive this.
3 THE REGISTRAR: It receives Exhibit P6554, Your Honours. Excuse
4 me, P6555, Your Honours.
5 MS. PELIC:
6 Q. Sir, I would like to go back to the treatment of detainees. You
7 testified that we -- that it's completely untrue that there was inhuman
8 treatment of the detainees?
9 MS. PELIC: And I would request that we go to private session,
10 please, for a while.
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes, could the Chamber move into private session,
13 [Private session]
5 [Open session]
6 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
7 MS. PELIC: Could we please call up P6556?
8 Q. Sir, this is a letter of Danilusko Kajtez sent to Vlado Vrkes.
9 And if you take a look at English page 1 and B/C/S page 1 at the bottom,
10 and then going to page 2, item 8, it states:
11 "You know that at Manjaca, I and a few others liquidated
12 12 people on two occasions which was ordered and witnessed by Inspector
13 Vujanic, Mico Krunic, who was the warden of the Betonirka prison at the
14 time, Mile and other inspectors. The chief at the time was Vrucinic."
15 Mr. Dobrijevic, this Mile and other inspectors --
16 JUDGE KWON: Let him read it first. Did you find the passage?
17 You said it runs to the next page.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps you can just help me find
20 MS. PELIC:
21 Q. Sir, if you take a look at the bottom of page 1 in B/C/S, it
22 starts with: "You know ..." Did you find it?
23 A. I can see, there is a little asterisk here so ...
24 MS. PELIC: And if we could go to the second page in B/C/S but
25 it's still first page in English. Thank you.
1 Q. Did you find it, sir?
2 A. I cannot see.
3 Q. It's fourth line in B/C/S, sir, at the top. It states: "Mile
4 and other inspectors ..."
5 A. Mile and other inspectors. Mile who?
6 Q. Sir, this is a reference to you and your colleagues who were --
7 went to Manjaca to interview detainees, isn't it?
8 A. I'm not aware of that. And I don't see why that would refer to
10 Q. Among others, you interviewed Mr. Adil Draganovic during his
11 detention, didn't you?
12 A. Could you please show me an official note or something? Either
13 I or Mile Dusenovic, it could be Mile Dusenovic.
14 MS. PELIC: Could we please call up 25744, 65 ter? And if we
15 could go to the next page?
16 Q. This is an excerpt of Adil Draganovic's testimony in the Brdjanin
17 case on 13th of May, 2002. And in relation to the letter that we just
18 looked at, P06556, and when asked to whom Kajtez is referring as Mile,
19 Mr. Draganovic testified, and I quote:
20 "I do know that person. That's Mile Dobrijevic nicknamed Mima.
21 He was a crime investigations inspector in the public security station in
22 Sanski Most. When the war stopped and after the Dayton Peace Agreement
23 was signed, he has been the chief of the public security station in
24 Ostra Luka, which is called the Serbian Sanski Most. On several
25 occasions, he led groups to Manjaca. I saw him. He interrogated me at
1 Manjaca. He took part in beatings, the beating of people -- the beatings
2 of people."
3 Mr. Draganovic is identifying you here, isn't he?
4 A. That is not correct. No. No. I am Mile Dobrijevic. My
5 nickname is Mima, but I did not interview Adil Draganovic. And in
6 Manjaca I interviewed a lot of people, several people. As for
7 Adil Draganovic, I did not interview him. I guess there are notes about
8 all of this. I signed each and every one of my official notes,
9 Mile Dobrijevic, signature.
10 If you allow me, I will explain that. Husinovci -- actually we
11 had different sectors. Everybody worked that their own sectors. I had
12 the following sector: Husinovci, Kamengrad, Gornji Kamengrad, Cirkici,
13 Vrse, Okrec.
14 MS. PELIC: Could we please call up 65 ter 22128?
15 Q. This is a BiH witness statement of Mirzet Karabeg who testified
16 in this case but was not asked here about you. In a statement given to
17 the CSB Banja Luka on 13 September 1995 - and if we could go to page 10
18 of English at the bottom and B/C/S page 9 at the top - Mr. Karabeg
19 stated, I quote:
20 "The following men were investigators: Number 1, Brane Sobot;
21 number 2, Mima Dobrijevic; number 3, Brane Macura aka Branci; number 4,
22 Dusko Zoric. These four criminals were responsible for the destiny of
23 many murdered Bosniaks and Croats because they immediately decided who
24 was guilty and who was not, who went to the camp and who did not, and
25 they also decided on the beatings, maltreatment and inhuman treatment of
2 You are the interrogator identified under item 2, aren't you?
3 A. Yes, that's correct. It's correct that I'm in paragraph 2.
4 However, all the rest is not correct. I mean, not only I but there are
5 other interrogators. Of course, I was employed at the public security
6 station. That was my duty and responsibility. As for all the rest here,
7 well, quite a bit was invented, added. These are not facts. These are
8 just arbitrary opinions, chit-chat. I don't even know what to call it.
9 Q. Sir --
10 A. Authorised official, Ibric Zijad from AID [phon] centre for
11 public security. Could you show me the heading once again?
12 MS. PELIC: If we could go to page number 1?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am not aware of this centre of
14 security services in Banja Luka. I'm not aware of its existence.
15 I worked at the Banja Luka centre of public security, but as for this
16 man --
17 MS. PELIC:
18 Q. Sir, you were deciding who will be released and who will be sent
19 to Manjaca, didn't you?
20 A. No. No. That is really not true.
21 Q. Sir, you --
22 A. I state with full responsibility that that is not true.
23 Q. Sir, you were involved in the beatings, maltreatment and inhuman
24 treatment of detainees; correct?
25 A. No. I state with full responsibility that that is not true.
1 Q. Okay. Let's go to one more --
2 JUDGE KWON: Do you remember whether or not you interviewed
3 Mizret Karabeg?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not interview
5 Mizret Karabeg, since Mizret Karabeg is from town and I was not in charge
6 of the town itself. That is one of the facts, too. Thank you for having
7 put this question.
8 JUDGE KWON: But do you remember if he was in Manjaca?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Please continue.
11 MS. PELIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Let's go to one more example.
13 MS. PELIC: Could we please call up 65 ter 25715? And if we
14 could go to English page 2, towards middle, and B/C/S page 1, towards
16 Q. This is a BiH statement of Jakupovic Hasan given to Sanski Most
17 Lower Court on 24th of April, 1996. And while describing the time he
18 spent in the garages of the Betonirka detention facility, Mr. Jakupovic
19 stated, and I quote:
20 "At the time, their police inspectors have been taking us out for
21 interrogations on a daily basis. The investigators were Dobrijevic Mile,
22 aka Mima, who interrogated me personally; Dusenovic Mile, Sobot Branko,
23 Stanic Radovan, the judge of this court. They would come every night and
24 take us, the prisoners, out and beat us heavily."
25 You were interrogating detainees in Betonirka; correct?
1 A. I did interrogate detainees in Betonirka but I claim with full
2 responsibility that this is not true. This is invented. Secondly, a
3 moment ago I mentioned the system of work, and the four of us never
4 worked together.
5 Q. Sir, you interrogated --
6 A. Dobrinko Stojinovic was a colleague who worked with me, who was
7 on my team. The others worked individually with other people. There
8 were teams composed of two persons, one from state security and the other
9 one from public security. And also we never worked during the night. So
10 I state with full responsibility that this was invented.
11 Q. Sir, you interrogated Mr. Jakupovic; correct?
12 A. Possibly. That may have happened, but if I interrogated him,
13 there is an official note that I and my colleague, Dobrinko Stojinovic
14 must have signed. These documents should exist. Here or wherever.
15 Because they stayed in -- stayed on in Sanski Most. I mean we made three
16 copies. One was with the state security, we kept the other copy, and the
17 third one would be in Manjaca because everything was sent up there to
18 Manjaca for further processing.
19 Once again, I state with full responsibility that this is false,
20 this is not true.
21 Q. Sir, you were involved in the beatings of prisoners at the
22 Betonirka detention facilities; correct?
23 A. That is not correct.
24 Q. In addition, Mr. Jakupovic stated, and I quote:
25 "When Dobrijevic Mile, aka Mima, interrogated me, he requested
1 15.000 Deutschmarks from me, promising me that he would immediately
2 release me from the prison and that he would put me on a list for the
3 convoy to move out from here."
4 And in fact, Mr. Jakupovic did pay you 15.000 Deutschmarks and
5 was in return put on a list for a convoy and then to Travnik on
6 10th of October, 1992, didn't he?
7 A. That cannot be true. These are terrible fabrications. If I can,
8 I'm going to sue him for this, really. Your Honours, this is so
9 inappropriate. These are blatant lies.
10 MS. PELIC: Could we please call up 65 ter 25716? And if we
11 could go English page 1, starting at the bottom, and going to second
12 page, and B/C/S page 1 towards the bottom.
13 Q. This is a BiH statement of Kalakovic Ismet given in Sanski Most
14 and dated 11th of April, 2001. Mr. Kalakovic stated, and I quote:
15 "I was interrogated by Mile Dobrijevic, aka Mima, son of Mitar,
16 and Branko Sobot, aka Brane, son of Mihajlo. Both inspectors of the SJB
17 Sanski Most. There was another interrogator present in the room with
18 them, aka Delija, his last name was probably Delic, 28, 29 years old,
19 blond, 175 centimetres tall. I was not maltreated on that occasion. A
20 policeman who brought me from Betonirka hit me three times with a stick,
21 but I noticed that it was them who told him when to start and stop
22 hitting me."
23 Again, sir, this is one more description of your involvement in
24 mistreatment of prisoners, isn't it?
25 A. Another fabrication. I explained a moment ago that we worked in
1 teams, Dobrinko Stojinovic and I. I never worked on the same team with
2 Branko Sobot in relation to these interviews. So this -- this is untrue.
3 And it's not from the area that I dealt with and so on.
4 Q. Briefly I would like to deal with the last topic. In
5 paragraph 21 of your statement, you stated that it was the policy and
6 practice of the police in Sanski Most during the war to fully investigate
7 crimes irrespective of ethnicity and you never had instructions to the
9 MS. PELIC: And if we could go to the private session briefly.
10 Thank you.
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
12 [Private session]
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE KWON: Because it was under seal. But you could look at it
6 on your e-court. Probably she is going to put that to the witness.
7 We'll see.
8 Shall we continue, Ms. Pelic?
9 MS. PELIC: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.
10 Q. Sir, in Sanski Most as elsewhere, persons accused of crimes
11 against non-Serbs were released from mandatory custody so they could go
12 back to the battlefield; isn't that right?
13 A. I'm not aware of that. At that time I was not working at the
14 court. I was not working at the Prosecutor's office. So I consider the
15 question to be a superfluous one as far as I'm concerned.
16 Q. Let's take a look at one example. You were familiar with the
17 case of Danilusko Kajtez, aren't you?
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. Kajtez murdered eight Croats in Skrljevita in Sanski Most;
21 A. Nedeljko Maricic was the colleague who dealt with that case so he
22 is more familiar with it. And also it caused imbitterment among the
23 population, so in part we were all aware of it. As far as I know, the
24 case was resolved, an indictment was issued, Kajtez was detained, and
25 another person who was of age, I think, and two minors. I may be
1 mistaken because it was not my case, so maybe I'm making a mistake.
2 I think there were four persons who were accused, two of age and two
3 under age.
4 Q. And in your BiH court testimony in the case of Nikola Kovacevic,
5 aka Danilusko Kajtez, you confirmed the following - and that could be
6 found at 65 ter 25714, English page 49, lines 13 to 32, and B/C/S
7 pages 36 to 37 - and I quote:
8 "If this is the case of Danilusko Kajtez, we have processed it
9 several times. It is a homicide case with aggravating consequences of
10 the criminal law, meaning that several persons were killed on this
11 occasion. For Nikola and other persons, criminal charges were compiled
12 and forwarded to the Sanski Most Municipal Prosecutor's Office. I
13 believe that the case was later forwarded to the Banja Luka Military
14 Prosecutor's Office when Danilusko was arrested."
15 That's correct, sir?
16 A. That's what I stated, and that is my view. Now, who prosecuted
17 who afterwards, I cannot say. That's why I said "I think." I did not
18 claim anything. I said "I think." But I still stand by this and I think
19 that's the way it was.
20 Q. And on 2nd of January, 1993, Kajtez was released from detention
21 and returned to his unit, wasn't he?
22 A. I'm not aware of these facts, but I did see Kajtez later on in
23 town. That is to say that he had been released, but when, I really don't
24 know. As for that, you could call the prosecutor and the judge who was
25 in charge of the investigation. You could interview him or, rather, hear
1 him as a witness. This documentation does exist.
2 MS. PELIC: Your Honour, if we could go to private session,
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
5 [Private session]
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue.
22 MS. PELIC: Could I please call up P6557?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is there going to be a question in
24 respect to this document?
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Dobrijevic?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I ask or may I clarify in part
2 the Law on Criminal Procedure that is in force in Republika Srpska as far
3 as detention is concerned, et cetera? Detention goes on until the
4 investigation is carried out. In some cases, the perpetrators --
5 JUDGE KWON: Probably Ms. Pelic is going to ask you a question
6 about this document. Could you wait? And then if necessary, I will
7 allow you to expand more.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise, I'm sorry.
9 JUDGE KWON: No, you don't have to.
10 Please continue, Ms. Pelic.
11 MS. PELIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
12 Q. Sir, Kajtez was released on his own proposal to be returned to
13 his unit, wasn't he?
14 A. I don't know where he went on. I don't know about that. If we
15 are talking about legal documents, decisions on ending detention and so
16 on, that we can do. However, where Kajtez went, that is something I
17 don't know.
18 Q. Sir, second paragraph in the explanation, it states:
19 "On 2nd of January, 1993, the investigating judge questioned the
20 defendants who stated that they wanted to return to their unit and
21 suggested that they be released from custody."
22 It's a fact that Kajtez was released on his own request to return
23 to the unit; right?
24 A. Well, I really don't know. I did not take part in all of this.
25 Who is the judge? Investigating judge? Captain Srdjan Porca? Would
1 that be it? I cannot see it well. He could -- I mean, give an answer to
2 that, why he did that, and so on.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I be of assistance? Is it
4 Srdjan Forca?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Srdjan Forca. Yes, yes,
6 Captain Srdjan Forca. So I'm not competent to say anything about this
8 MS. PELIC: If we could call up P06542? Thank you.
9 Q. Sir, even the president of the Sanski Most SDS Municipal Board,
10 Vlado Vrkes, and the commander of the 4th Battalion of the
11 6th Krajina Brigade, Captain Ostoja Curkov [phon], begged the High
12 Military Court in Banja Luka to accept some information that would help
13 it pass a fair judgement on Kajtez, haven't they?
14 A. I don't know what you're asking me to do. Really. This is a
15 document from which one can see what they were looking for. They know
16 what they were looking for. There are some mitigating circumstances here
17 that should be taken into account during sentencing or something like
18 that. Well, that is the only comment I can give.
19 Q. Sir, in fact, Kajtez was not tried for these crimes until 2006
20 when you testified in that case; isn't that correct?
21 A. Kajtez was tried in Banja Luka, as far as I know.
22 Q. In 2006; right?
23 A. I don't know when but I know that he was tried.
24 Q. Sir, you testified in his --
25 A. When I say "I know," that means that I assume because I heard or
1 perhaps I read it in newspapers. There was a trial, and judges are
2 independent in their decisions. Any comment would be unnecessary from me
3 as an inspector. It is not up to me to comment the decisions of a judge
4 or court decisions as such.
5 Q. Sir, you testified in this case and that was in 2006; right?
6 A. Yes, I was a prosecution witness.
7 MS. PELIC: Your Honours, I have no further questions.
8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Dobrijevic, do you or did you know personally
9 this Kajtez at the time?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I knew him personally.
11 JUDGE KWON: Could you explain to us what the relation was like
12 between you and this Kajtez?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I knew most of the inhabitants of
14 Sanski Most. There was nothing special about our relationship. We were
16 JUDGE KWON: But you remember his letter to Vrkes?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. The letter was shown to me in
18 this courtroom.
19 JUDGE KWON: Well, I'll leave it at that.
20 Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellency.
22 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
23 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Dobrijevic, could you please finish the
24 answer about the decision P6557, where Srdjan Forca states the reasons
25 for the end of detention? What did you tell us about the law?
1 A. According to the Law on Criminal Procedure of Republika Srpska,
2 detention is not obligatory. It's an optional category, and it can last
3 for as long as is necessary for the completion of the investigation.
4 There are four conditions under which a person can be detained. He
5 should not influence witnesses, re-offending, leaving the territory or
6 escape or something like that, or the crime must not have been a public
7 threat. I believe that he was remanded in custody for the fourth reason.
8 I'm talking about the law that we implement. I believe that all the
9 conditions were met and there were no grounds to keep him in custody.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 A. Or at least this is what we are doing at the moment.
12 JUDGE KWON: Can you upload that exhibit again, P6557? This is
13 the question for the parties. I wonder whether we have in our evidence
14 the provision referred to in this decision. The last paragraph in
15 English, the military judge, investigating judge, refers to the
16 Article 191 of Law on Criminal Proceedings. So otherwise, I would like
17 any party to produce that document, together with the English, to the
19 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency. I
21 believe that the Prosecution has it. If not, the Defence will make sure
22 to obtain that document.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Article 191 of the Law on
24 Criminal Proceedings from that period.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Thank you. It says here that he requested that. Who can request
2 for the custody sentence to be abolished?
3 A. It can only be the prosecutor. It cannot be at the defendant's
4 request. All the defendants would request that. It is the prosecutor
5 who makes that proposal to the judge. There has to be a statement of
6 reasons according to which there were no more grounds to keep the person
7 in custody.
8 Q. Let me read the last paragraph to you.
9 "The investigating judge has considered the proposal of the
10 defendants and determined that the grounds for detention stipulated in
11 Article 191, paragraph 1, of the Law on Criminal Proceedings, in
12 accordance with which the defendants were detained, is no longer
13 applicable. The military prosecutor was agreeable to that, which is why
14 I decided, as in the ruling."
15 Were the legal conditions met to abolish the detention?
16 A. Is this a question for me?
17 Q. Is this customary? Does the prosecutor have to agree or can the
18 court decide without the prosecutor's agreement?
19 A. Yes. It is the judge's call. Sometimes the prosecutor requests
20 for a person to be detained and the judge doesn't have to accept that.
21 Q. Now let's talk about the identity of that person Mile from that
22 letter. Do you hail from the village of Dusenovici?
23 A. No. I'm from Suhaca. I.e., I am on the border between
24 Kamengrad, Husimovci, and Suhaca.
25 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Since Mr. Dobrijevic you referred to
1 the practice in the military court, you just minute ago said:
2 "It is the judge's call. Sometimes the prosecutor requests for a
3 person to be detained and the judge doesn't have to accept that."
4 Can the vice versa be also true? For example, even if the
5 prosecutor requests for a person to be released, does the judge have
6 to -- does the judge not have to accept it?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not listen to you carefully.
8 I was not attentive enough. Could you please repeat your question?
9 JUDGE KWON: You said sometimes -- I will read your testimony.
10 "Sometimes the Prosecutor requests for a person to be detained
11 and the judge doesn't have to accept that."
12 So my question is if the prosecutor requests for a person to be
13 released, then does the judge have to follow that suggestion or not?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] According to the legislation which
15 is in effect now, the answer would be yes, because the prosecutor is in
16 charge of the investigation and they believe that the grounds no longer
17 exist for the person to be remanded in custody. If a request does not
18 arrive to prolong the remand, the person who is being investigated is
19 immediately released because no decision has arrived from the judge. It
20 is the judge who has the right to decide upon the prosecutor's proposal.
21 If the prosecutor does not send that proposal to the judge, a decision
22 cannot be issued to the effect of keeping somebody in custody.
23 JUDGE KWON: But to follow your -- to borrow your term, it's
24 still the judge's call, isn't it? It's up to the judge to decide whether
25 to release the accused or suspect or not?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely. If nothing arrives
2 from the prosecutor, the judge is duty-bound to release that person
3 because there is no obvious need to remand them in custody. On the other
4 hand, even if the proposal arrives from the Prosecutor to release the
5 person, the judge can still turn that proposal down and continue to keep
6 that person in detention.
7 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Mr. Karadzic. Just a second. Yes,
8 Ms. Pelic?
9 MS. PELIC: Your Honour, Article 191 can be found under P06178.
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Dobrijevic, on page 45 -- no. Somewhat earlier. No, no,
13 line 13. You said according to the legislation that is currently in
14 effect, the answer would be yes, and so on and so forth. Because the
15 prosecutor is in charge of the investigation. Can you tell us what has
16 changed in the meantime?
17 A. Yes, yes. The law has been changed. Formerly it was the
18 investigating judge who was in charge of the investigation, in keeping
19 with the Law on Criminal Proceedings, and that was in effect until 2003.
20 It was the investigating judge who decided on remanding people in
21 custody, although the prosecutor could object. It was the judge's call
22 to release people. This is a different law. I apologise. I was talking
23 about the Law on Criminal Procedure that has been in effect since 2003.
24 Q. Thank you. And now I would like to deal with your identity. You
25 are not from Dusenovic, are you? And your nickname is Mima?
1 A. Yes, my nickname is Mima, however, I was born in the village of
2 Suhaca. I was born on the border between Suhaca, Kamengrad and
3 Sanski Most.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to call up 65 ter 22128
6 now. This is Mirzet Karabeg's statement. He was a witness here. I'd
7 like to look at page 3 in Serbian and I believe that we need the same
8 page in English.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. In the second half, Redzo Kurbegovic is mentioned, as well as
11 Ismet Jakupovic. They were interrogated. And it says here
12 Redzo Kurbegovic, Haso Osmancevic, Ismet Alagic, in the cell number 1,
13 Fikret Saletovic, president of the municipal court and so on and so
14 forth. On that day, he was released. However, on the following day, he
15 was brought back in and the interrogation started on the following day.
16 I apologise to the interpreters.
17 It -- the person who interrogated them was a person called
18 Dusenovic whose nickname was Mima. Is that you?
19 A. No, that was not me.
20 Q. Does it shed a new light on --
21 JUDGE KWON: I'm not sure we have that document before us. Could
22 you locate where it is?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just bear with me for a moment. In
24 Serbian it is page 3. Let me check the English version. Let's go
25 one page back in English. I believe that we will find that paragraph
1 there. No, no, no. Can we go one page forward or, rather, two pages
2 forward from here?
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Suad Sabic and so on and so forth.
5 This will be in the first third.
6 [In English] The next day, questioning began, questioning was
7 carried out by Dusenovic also known as Mima from Dusenovici.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. What was his first name? Mr. Dobrijevic, what was this
10 inspector's first name?
11 A. What inspector?
12 Q. This man Dusenovic whose nickname was Mima?
13 A. My chief?
14 Q. He was your chief?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What was his first name?
17 A. Mile.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And now can we look at 1D00014?
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber who Uros Pena is, if you know?
22 A. He was my colleague and he used to be a policeman. He was the
23 chief of the public security station in Drvar, and then for a while he
24 was the deputy minister. And I believe that for a while he was the chief
25 of the Security Services Centre in Banja Luka or perhaps deputy chief.
1 Q. Thank you. I didn't say that the date of the former document is
2 13 September 1994.
3 And now look at this document on the screen. It bears the date
4 19 September 1994. And it says here:
5 "Based on the dispatch that we received from you in connection
6 with information about the activity of the Manjaca camp inmates
7 association in Germany whose president is Adil Draganovic from
8 Sanski Most, we have identified a person named Mile and conducted an
9 interview with him and his father-in-law, Hasim."
10 And it also says here that the person in question is Mile Antonic
11 from Ribnik, and so on and so forth. So it was neither Mile Dusenovic
12 nor Mile Dobrijevic; right?
13 A. I don't know. A lot of lies can be found in the statements that
14 I've been shown here. There are a lot of lies indeed.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to tender this document
17 into evidence.
18 JUDGE KWON: Before that, I think -- in the documents shown by
19 Ms. Pelic, I think we saw several Miles already.
20 MS. PELIC: That's correct.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Karabeg said that Dusenovic Mima,
22 Mile, was the one who conducted the interview. His nickname was not Mima
23 but it is Mile. And for some reason, Uros Pena, one week after that
24 statement, sought clarification as to who Mile was and they identified
25 that person as being Mile Antonic.
1 JUDGE KWON: None of the documents shown to the witness by
2 Ms. Pelic were tendered into evidence. Now you are tendering this
3 official note. For the Chamber to assess all the evidence, we need to
4 accept all the documents shown by the witness -- shown by the
5 Prosecution. If you are tendering this, we have to consider that option
6 as well.
7 Mr. Robinson?
8 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, I don't think it's necessary to tender this
9 under the circumstances. It should bear the same status as the other
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes. I remember you on this at one point in time,
12 Ms. Pelic. Do you have any observation?
13 MS. PELIC: No, Your Honour.
14 JUDGE KWON: Okay. Shall we continue?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. If that is in the
16 transcript, then this can stay in the transcript as well, and then
17 I withdraw the document.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mr. Dobrijevic, was Adil Draganovic a person without reproach?
20 Was he questioned without any grounds or were there any grounds for him
21 being interrogated?
22 A. Well, let me say this again: I did not interview
23 Adil Draganovic. I do happen to know Adil Draganovic very well. He was
24 the president of the court and he frequently went for on-site
25 investigations with us, and we cooperated extremely well. Allegedly, the
1 reason why he was detained was that Adil Draganovic did not return a
2 Skorpion that he possessed as a member of the state security forces
4 Q. Thank you.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 1D00025, please?
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Could you please look at the Municipal Prosecutor's Office in
9 Buzim. This is in the federation, isn't it?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. What is being submitted here is an indictment against
12 Adil Draganovic, the municipal court judge in Sanski Most, for a number
13 of misdemeanours, abuse of office and so on.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at the following page,
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. And then on the front page, it says here that he paid out various
18 payments, acted illegally in handling money. Is this a usual kind of
19 indictment and is this something that is done in this manner when some
20 illegal matters are established?
21 A. Absolutely. This is an indictment charging the accused for
22 committing violations of abuse of office, and his professional authority.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please tender this document?
24 JUDGE KWON: We will admit this.
25 THE REGISTRAR: It receives Exhibit Number D4174, Your Honours.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we look at P6555, page 28,
2 29, where the Prosecutor suggested that it says over there that a large
3 number of people were sent to Manjaca without being interviewed first.
4 So can we now see whether that was really so. Ah, I'm sorry, I just need
5 to find the right page now.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Pelic?
7 MS. PELIC: If I could help, that's at page 24 in English, line 8
8 to 15, and in B/C/S page 17.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you so much.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. At the bottom, it says, you are speaking:
12 "Well, it was a large number of people, so most probably they
13 could not all be interviewed. There was no time."
14 Where was this large number of people?
15 A. In Sanski Most.
16 Q. Not that a large number of people went to Manjaca without being
18 A. Well, probably my answer was most probably in that context.
19 Q. Thank you. And you were asked why these people were not
20 processed, who had been questioned and sent to Manjaca. Do you know
21 until when Manjaca operated as a prison for prisoners of war?
22 A. I think it was until the -- November. I think it was closed in
24 Q. And in this document, that was not tendered, it states that
25 Adil Draganovic was working in Germany for some association. Do you know
1 who shut down Manjaca and was this followed by a suspension of all
3 A. I'm sorry, I'm not aware of this. This was not part of my
4 duties. So I did not really deal with that part of it. I don't know how
5 it was formed or how it was shut down, this Manjaca camp.
6 Q. All right. And if I were to tell you now that Manjaca was closed
7 down and the vast majority of prisoners were pardoned, would that be an
8 answer to the question of why they were not processed?
9 A. Well, then it's clear to me.
10 JUDGE KWON: No, that's not a proper question.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Well, the question was
12 put why they were not processed and the man said that they were submitted
13 and I just wanted to --
14 JUDGE KWON: No, no, move on --
15 MS. PELIC: Objection.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if you're asking me what the
17 word "abolicija" means, then I can answer.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. All right. Very well. You mentioned that some prisoners, some
20 fighters that were captured, were captured in these three or four
21 villages around Sanski Most and some of them went to Galaja and started
22 guerrilla fighting. Could you please tell us what Galaja is?
23 A. Galaja is a forest between Hrustovo and Vrhpolje settlements. In
24 view of the fact that it has a better military strategic position, it was
25 easier to conduct fighting there. It was easier to fight there.
1 Q. Thank you. So how long did these guerrilla groups last around
2 the Kljuc and Sanski Most woods?
3 A. I don't know the exact date. It's hard to know that. They were
4 there for a long time. They were divided into these guerrilla-style
5 groups but they didn't have support from the population because the
6 population had left, so then they tried to break through towards Bihac.
7 Q. Thank you. In one of the documents proffered by the Prosecution,
8 it is said that there were investigations into the circumstances of the
9 death of Enes Dervisevic --
10 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please repeat the number?
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Was this something that was ascribed to some Serb as an illegal
14 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Pelic?
15 MS. PELIC: I'm not sure how this is following from my
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This name and case appears in the
18 document that was shown --
19 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreter did not understand the last
21 JUDGE KWON: Could you --
22 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation].
23 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, just a second. Mr. Karadzic, the
24 interpreters didn't interpret your question in full because she couldn't
25 hear the number and the name of certain person. Could you repeat that.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In one of the documents the
2 Prosecution submitted, the case is mentioned of Enes Dervisevic in the
3 context of an illegal killing or a homicide by a Serb. So what I wanted
4 was to look at 1D25877, a document by Judge Adil Draganovic.
5 JUDGE KWON: Before we see that document, could you not put a
6 question to the witness?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, it was not recorded.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. What I asked was: Was this, this document, and in general, was
10 this something that was ascribed to a Serb as an illegal killing?
11 MS. PELIC: Objection, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE KWON: Just a second -- just a second --
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you ask me about that, I don't
14 have any knowledge about that whatsoever.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Pelic?
16 MS. PELIC: Again, I'm not sure how is this following from my
17 cross-examination and it's leading.
18 JUDGE KWON: But is that case appearing in the document you
19 referred to, Ms. Pelic?
20 MS. PELIC: No, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE KWON: Then let's upload the document used by the
22 Prosecution, start from there.
23 Shall we take a break?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. But I was actually
25 thinking of completing my questioning by just look -- but we can look at
1 the document that looks at the investigation into the killing of
2 Enes Dervisevic.
3 JUDGE KWON: What's the number in which that individual appears?
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I need to find it,
5 Your Excellencies, it was shown by the Prosecution so I really -- I just
6 need to find it. Perhaps it would be better to go on the break.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We will have a break for 45 minutes and resume
8 at 1.15.
9 --- Recess taken at 12.35 p.m.
10 --- On resuming at 1.24 p.m.
11 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, your Excellency. I'm
13 going to cut things short a little bit.
14 Q. I wanted to ask you this: You were asked about the confiscation
15 of weapons of non-Serbs. Did you confiscate illegal weapons from
16 non-Serbs as well?
17 A. Yes, all illegal weapons were confiscated. Also, we tried to
18 process the merchants of illegal weapons because this is a criminal
19 offence. It constitutes a criminal offence.
20 Q. Thank you. And was this a permanently confiscated or not, and
21 who makes that decision?
22 A. We confiscate the weapons on a temporary basis, we issue a
23 certificate, and the court is the one who decides whether the weapon will
24 be permanently confiscated.
25 Q. Yes. I would need to ask you for a favour, for somebody to put a
1 document on the ELMO because I didn't know that this would come up.
2 MS. PELIC: Your Honours, can we please see the document?
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
4 THE ACCUSED: There are ERN numbers. All are official.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Are you able to tell the Trial Chamber what this document is and
7 from whom are the documents being confiscated?
8 A. This is a certificate on the temporary confiscation of an item
9 from Budinka Svetlitca [phoen]. An automatic M56 weapon is being
10 confiscated, factory number E69353, with one round and 25 bullets, and
11 it's a calibre 7.62.
12 Q. And what is Budinka? Can we look at the bottom of the page?
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Pelic?
14 MS. PELIC: Your Honours, this is related to 1994 and I'm just
15 wondering how it's relevant to my cross-examination.
16 JUDGE KWON: Can I hear from you, Mr. Karadzic?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Throughout the war the policy was
18 the same, in terms of illegal arming. This is something that the witness
19 is aware of. This is not something that applied only to 1992.
20 JUDGE KWON: But confiscation has nothing to do with the
21 cross-examination. Please move on to another topic.
22 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President I think it shows that they were
23 treating Serbs equally as they were treating Muslims because during the
24 cross-examination there was issues regarding the treatment of Muslims in
25 Sanski Most and the lack of enforcement against Serbs who were committing
1 crimes against Muslims.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Pelic?
3 MS. PELIC: Again, Your Honour, I was focusing on 1992 and this
4 is 1994.
5 JUDGE KWON: Would you like to add anything with respect to the
6 time frame, Mr. Robinson?
7 MR. ROBINSON: Well, if Dr. Karadzic an elicits from the witness
8 that they were doing the same thing during 1994 as they had been doing in
9 1992 it would be relevant. Otherwise, it wouldn't.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, please move on to another topic.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have the next one, please?
13 [In English] Just to see the seal.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Is that the same kind of document? [In English] Confiscation is
16 disarmament --
17 JUDGE KWON: No, this is 95 again, yes?
18 MS. PELIC: 94.
19 JUDGE KWON: Or 94, yes.
20 THE ACCUSED: I would like to see the seal down there.
21 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber said you should move on, not allowing
22 this line of question.
23 MR. ROBINSON: But, Mr. President, do you remember we had the
24 issue about what the seal looked like for Sanski Most and the other
1 JUDGE KWON: Oh, very well, on that issue.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. Dobrijevic, does this look like the stamp of your station?
4 A. Yes. It can clearly be seen here the public security station of
5 Sanski Most. It can clearly be read. It's in the Cyrillic script.
6 Q. It is for that purpose that I would like to tender this document.
7 JUDGE KWON: We will mark it for identification.
8 THE REGISTRAR: It receives MFI D4175, Your Honours.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Last question: You said that you guarded villages that did not
12 express readiness to fight. How did the situation on the front line
13 affect the safety of Muslims --
14 MS. PELIC: Objection, Your Honour, this again has nothing to do
15 with my cross-examination.
16 JUDGE KWON: I beg your pardon?
17 MS. PELIC: It's not raising from the cross-examination.
18 JUDGE KWON: Your point is not you are -- Mr. Karadzic is not
19 properly citing his evidence?
20 MS. PELIC: I didn't cross-examine Mr. Dobrijevic on guarding of
21 villages that did not express readiness to fight.
22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But -- but three villages,
24 Hrustovo, Vrhpolje, and I don't know which one, were represented as the
25 entire municipality where there was fighting, and the witness said that
1 it was only those three villages that were involved in fighting. They
2 were guarding the rest because they had handed over their weapons. So it
3 has to do with that, the attitude towards the villages and towards the
5 JUDGE KWON: I don't think I follow your explanation. Move on to
6 another topic.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, if it's another topic, then I
8 have no further questions, but the problem is how I understand this.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE BAIRD: Mr. Robinson, can we hear you on that, please?
11 MR. ROBINSON: Actually, I'm not understanding how Dr. Karadzic
12 is linking this. I recall his direct examination covering these topics,
13 but I'm not sure how he's linking this to the cross-examination.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE BAIRD: Thank you very much, indeed.
16 THE ACCUSED: If I may clarify further, I understand that I may
17 be confused because I am an amateur, but during the cross-examination it
18 was alleged that villages have been disarmed and then attacked, and
19 I want to see whether those villages have been attacked or guarded.
20 JUDGE KWON: So you are referring to a document which refers to
21 disarming in quotation marks, so peaceful disarming and attack?
22 THE ACCUSED: Yes.
23 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Then we'll hear your question. Please
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Could you please tell us who could have attacked the villages or
2 who was it that did attack the villages, the villages that were you
3 guarding? You were protecting them from who?
4 A. We were guarding the local population.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Pelic. It's difficult to see you from
6 here. Yes.
7 MS. PELIC: I'm sorry, it's again a leading question.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Mr. Witness, when it was suggested that the villages had been
11 disarmed, under quotation marks, and then attacked, did that actually
12 happen and who was it that could have attacked the villages?
13 A. Well, the question is a bit unclear to me but let me try to
14 answer. Everybody could have attacked, Serbs, non-Serbs. Most of the
15 crimes that were committed after combat operations or rather after a
16 voluntary surrender of weapons, were properly -- property-related; that
17 is to say robbery, armed robbery, and so on.
18 Q. Thank you. In that context, could the village have been attacked
19 by someone who was affected by combat operations from Bihac, et cetera?
20 Did you have a problem like that?
21 MS. PELIC: Again, leading.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Could you have -- could you reformulate your
23 question, Mr. Karadzic?
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Dobrijevic, was it your understanding that it was only
1 regular military and police forces that could have attacked the villages?
2 Or was there somebody else?
3 A. There was no danger coming from the legitimate police force. It
4 was the duty and responsibility of the police to guard them, to protect
5 them. I've already said there was the danger of certain groups that
6 stayed on and that were moving from Bihac, Galaja, Prijedor, and so on.
7 These were some of the routes that they took on their way.
8 Q. Thank you. Did the MUP take all of that into account?
9 A. Absolutely.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the last document please be
11 shown to the witness on the ELMO?
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].
13 Q. Please read out the entire document, read it out loud.
14 JUDGE KWON: Could it be shown to the Prosecutor first?
15 THE ACCUSED: It was. It had been shown in the batch.
16 JUDGE KWON: No.
17 Yes, Ms. Pelic?
18 MS. PELIC: [Microphone not activated]
19 JUDGE KWON: Oh, that was your point. Yes.
20 MS. PELIC: One more point. It's again related to 1994 and my
21 cross-examination was specifically directed to 1992.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My position is that a phenomenon is
23 a phenomenon. It cannot be --
24 JUDGE KWON: Could the witness read out the title of this
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ministry of the Interior, Republika
2 Srpska, dispatch, CJB Prijedor, SJB Sanski Most. The dispatch is sent
3 from the SJB Sanski Most to Prijedor which is within Prijedor. It is
4 connected to dispatch SJB Sanski Most number 11-19-1, 91/94, from the
5 21st of December 1994.
6 In view of the existing war situation and --
7 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. What is your question, Mr. Karadzic?
8 Before putting that question, let us know first.
9 THE ACCUSED: Well, I did pose this question just a minute ago,
10 whether police took everything in account in order to prevent any attack
11 on the villages, contrary to the allegations that villages have been
12 attacked by official forces.
13 JUDGE KWON: I don't think this is relevant to the issue that we
14 discussed here.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, please move on to another topic.
17 We'll not allow this question.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Excellency. Thank you,
19 Mr. Dobrijevic, I have no further questions. Unfortunately, there are
20 far more documents but I don't have all that time. But any way, thank
21 you very much for having come.
22 JUDGE KWON: Well, that concludes your evidence, Mr. Dobrijevic.
23 On behalf of the Chamber, I'd like to thank you for your coming to
24 The Hague to give it. Now you are free to go.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour, for this
1 possibility to say what I had, and thank you for your fairness. Thank
2 you once again.
3 [The witness withdrew]
4 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger?
5 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President. May I just raise one
6 matter before the next witness comes in which is related to a motion from
7 the Defence which you have or will shortly receive. It was filed at some
8 point in the last session. It's a notice of testimony and request for
9 presence of counsel related to Mr. Beara, which is also related to the
10 similar motion filed in connection with Mr. Tolimir.
11 I simply wanted to alert the Court to the fact that these two
12 motions are part of an ongoing collaborative dialogue between the Defence
13 and the Prosecution aimed at ensuring the most efficient use of court
14 time, particularly in the face of many, many scheduling changes that have
15 arisen by the Defence and that have put a significant strain on
16 Prosecution resources in attempting to deal with.
17 We've done our best to -- and continue to do our best to ensure
18 that to the maximum extent possible the court schedule can move forward
19 with minimal and thus far actually almost none existent disruption, but
20 I wanted to note that these two motions arise from our exchange and
21 reflect the Defence's recognition of the strain and difficulties that
22 these many, many changes put on the Prosecution resources, and it's an
23 attempt to avoid yet a further and quite unnecessary additional
24 expenditure of resources and difficulty for the Prosecution, under these
25 circumstances, where in fact we don't know and even have indications that
1 the witnesses will not testify.
2 So the schedule proposed by Mr. Robinson, which of course I'm
3 indicating we strongly endorse, is that these two witnesses would appear
4 at the latter part of that week, would, if they chose to do so, proffer
5 their evidence-in-chief, and then their cross-examination would be
6 deferred until after the break. So I think that's eminently sensible
7 under the circumstances. It works out well with the schedule as the
8 Court can see, it avoids the unnecessary further strain on Prosecution
9 resources, and so we -- we ask the Court to adopt that approach as
10 suggested by Mr. Robinson and agreed upon by us.
11 I would note that indeed, if -- given the adjustments we've
12 already been obliged to make, we would not be prepared to cross-examine
13 without -- at least not in the absence of imposing a really draconian and
14 unfair schedule on the lawyer or lawyers involved. So we ask the Court
15 to follow the proposal of the parties in this case.
16 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson, would you like to add anything?
17 MR. ROBINSON: Only, Mr. President, that we have been receiving
18 excellent cooperation from the Prosecution in adjusting to our changes in
19 the witness lineup, and we think that this is a reasonable solution to
20 continue the flow of witnesses.
21 JUDGE KWON: Has that been discussed with the witness in
23 MR. ROBINSON: No, Mr. President, the witness -- it's been
24 discussed with -- the witness's counsel is aware of it, but we don't have
25 any --
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I mean the counsel.
2 MR. ROBINSON: Yes.
3 JUDGE KWON: It's been duly noted and the Chamber will consider
4 the matter in due course.
5 Before we bring in the next witness, there are four matters I'd
6 like to deal with briefly.
7 First, in relation to the Chamber's order on the 4th of December
8 to lift the confidentiality of a portion of the transcript. The Chamber
9 hereby instructs the Registry that pages 44417, line 10, to 44419, line
10 4, of the transcript of 3rd of December 2013, as well as the relevant
11 portion of the audiovisual recording, can now be made available to the
13 Second, on the 5th December 2013, the accused filed a notice of
14 questions for General Tolimir and request for presence of legal adviser.
15 On the same day, the Prosecution informed the Chamber via e-mail that it
16 did not wish to respond to this filing. The Chamber takes no issue with
17 Zdravko Tolimir's legal adviser, Mr. Aleksandar Gajic, being present in
18 the courtroom during Tolimir's testimony. This request is therefore
20 Third, the Chamber now wishes to issue an oral ruling in relation
21 to Witness Milos Milincic, who is scheduled to testify next week. The
22 Rule 92 ter notification for this witness was filed on the 29th of
23 November 2013. His proposed Rule 92 ter statement bears 65 ter number
24 1D9746. Having reviewed the proposed evidence of this witness, the
25 Chamber is concerned about its lack of relevance to the charges laid
1 against the accused. This is particularly pertinent when regard is had
2 to the claim of the accused that he is pressed for time. There are very
3 few paragraphs of potential general relevance to the indictment in the
4 proposed Rule 92 ter statement, namely parts of paragraphs 9, 10, 16, 18,
5 19, 20, and 22. The remainder of the statement is purely about the
6 situation in Srbac, a municipality which is not included in the
7 indictment, the policies developed there and the impact of the conflict
8 in the neighbouring Croatia. Accordingly, Milincic will not be allowed
9 to be called pursuant to Rule 92 ter. If the accused wishes to call him
10 on matters relevant to the indictment, he can do so viva voce.
11 Finally, as the Defence case is drawing to a close, the Chamber
12 would benefit from hearing from the parties and stand-by counsel as to
13 whether stand-by counsel should continue to perform the duties to which
14 he was assigned after the close of the Defence case or of rebuttal and
15 rejoinder, if any, and until the completion of the closing arguments.
16 The Chamber therefore requests the parties and Mr. Harvey to file their
17 written submission on this topic no later than Friday, 13th of December
19 That said, shall we bring in the next witness.
20 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, while we are bringing in this
21 witness, we have 45 minutes of cross-examination and maybe 15 minutes of
22 direct, is it possible to make arrangements to sit until maybe 3.30 today
23 since we started late so that we can conclude his evidence today?
24 JUDGE KWON: We will ask around and see how it evolves.
25 [The witness entered court]
1 JUDGE KWON: Would the witness make the solemn declaration,
2 please. Mr. Bojinovic, do you hear me in a language you understand? Can
3 you -- shall we turn up the volume for the witness? Now do you hear me
4 in your language?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good afternoon, Mr. Bojinovic. Would you make
7 the --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.
9 JUDGE KWON: -- solemn declaration.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
11 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
12 WITNESS: MILOS BOJINOVIC
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Bojinovic. Please be seated and make
15 yourself comfortable.
16 Before you commence your evidence, Mr. Bojinovic, I must draw
17 your attention to a certain rule of evidence -- yes. If the usher could
18 assist the witness. Now, do you hear me well?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excellent.
20 JUDGE KWON: Okay. I wanted to draw your attention to a rule of
21 evidence that we have here at the International Tribunal, that is Rule
22 90(E). Under this rule, Mr. Bojinovic, you may object to answering any
23 question from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecutor, or even from the Judges if
24 you believe that your answer might incriminate you in a criminal offence.
25 In this context, "Incriminate" means saying something that might amount
1 to an admission of guilt for a criminal offence or saying something that
2 might provide evidence that you might have committed a criminal offence.
3 However, should you think that an answer might incriminate you and as a
4 consequence you refuse to answer the question, I must let you know that
5 the Tribunal has the power to compel you to answer the question. But in
6 that situation, the Tribunal would ensure that your testimony, compelled
7 under such circumstances, would not be used in any case that might be
8 laid against you for any offence, save and except the offence of giving
9 false testimony.
10 Do you understand that?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Karadzic. Please proceed.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
15 Q. Good day, Mr. Bojinovic.
16 A. Good day, good day, Mr. Karadzic.
17 Q. Please let us pause between my questions and your answers and
18 also let us enunciate our sentences slowly so that they could be recorded
19 in the transcript.
20 A. Very well.
21 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, did you testify before this Tribunal, and if so in
22 which case?
23 A. Yes. In the Brdjanin case ten years ago.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have 1D9730 in
1 e-court? And also could 9730A be prepared?
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Can you tell us whether you had an opportunity to be reminded of
4 that testimony of yours? Did you manage to listen to it or to read
5 through it?
6 A. Part of it. I reviewed part of it, but I remember the trial.
7 Q. Thank you. This transcript, did it faithfully reflect what you
8 said at that trial during your testimony?
9 A. Yes. Everything is fine, all of what I reviewed.
10 JUDGE KWON: Are there some parts which was asked in private
11 session or in closed session?
12 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. We are going to be tendering
13 1D9730 under seal and 1D9730A as a public document.
14 JUDGE KWON: Very well. So as long as this page is concerned, it
15 was conducted in open session?
16 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, and it's actually not necessary to upload the
18 JUDGE KWON: No, no. There is no signature on it.
19 Yes, please continue.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. If I were to put the same questions to you today, the questions
23 that were put during that testimony of yours, would your answers
24 basically be the same?
25 A. I think they would be.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I would like to
3 tender that exhibit according to Rule 92 ter, the redacted version and
4 the full version, according to the numbers that we referred to.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Bojinovic, to the question of Mr. Karadzic that
7 whether you listened to the audio video tape of your testimony or read
8 this transcript, and you said part of it. I reviewed part of it but
9 I remember the trial. And then --
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
11 JUDGE KWON: Could you tell us what you meant? I take it you do
12 not read English, Mr. Bojinovic?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Well, I reviewed one part of
14 the CD and I could see that everything was all right. I did not look at
15 the second part of the CD because it could not be activated. This is
16 what I meant. And I believe that the second part of the CD has to be all
17 right if the first part was.
18 JUDGE KWON: How long did it take for you to review the first
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, to be honest, about an hour.
21 I can't give you the precise time. I didn't time it. But that would be
22 my estimate.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE BAIRD: Mr. Robinson, can you assist us here, please? Now,
25 he's saying I believe the second part of the CD has to be right because
1 the first part was. Now, would that be confirmation of the second part?
2 MR. ROBINSON: Well, I think in -- under these circumstances,
3 he's saying that he recalls his testimony in Brdjanin and that it was
4 accurate, and we did -- I'm hearing actually for the first time that he
5 didn't complete the listening to the CD because we brought that CD to him
6 to listen to his testimony before he testified, but I think that if he
7 believes that what he has listened to so far is consistent with his
8 recollection and that the testimony in that case was accurate and he
9 would repeat the same here, I think that that's sufficient under 92 ter.
10 But I apologise for the fact that he wasn't able to listen to his entire
11 testimony, which should have been done. But if it's of concern to the
12 Chamber, we can have him listen to it over the weekend and he can give
13 his testimony on Monday.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE BAIRD: Ms. Sutherland, can you assist us in this matter?
16 You wish to respond at all?
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE BAIRD: Thank you.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: It was going to be my submission on hearing what
20 the witness said, that I don't believe the requirements of Rule 92 ter
21 have been met. He said that he listened to one hour of audio. He
22 testified over two days and it was I think half an hour short of the end
23 of the session on the second day that his evidence was completed. So
24 he's only listened to one hour of seven, approximately.
25 JUDGE BAIRD: Yes, he said the second part of the CD couldn't
1 have been activated or words to that effect.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour, that's what he said --
3 JUDGE BAIRD: Yes.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: -- which means that hasn't --
5 JUDGE BAIRD: Indeed.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: I presume the second part of the CD means the
7 second day, but even in fact he hasn't, as I can work it out, reviewed
8 the whole of day 1 even. And I think the better course may be that he
9 listens to the entirety of his evidence over the weekend so that he can
10 be sure that -- that it accurately reflects what he would say.
11 JUDGE BAIRD: Thank you.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Bojinovic, would there be any problem if you
14 have to stay till Monday next week?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it would be a problem. May
16 I explain? I have reviewed the first day of that trial, and everything
17 was accurate. In my view any delay would be unnecessary, especially for
18 the reason being that I didn't review the second day. I don't think that
19 there is anything inaccurate there. If there were inaccuracies, I would
20 certainly alert you to those, but I don't think that there are. I'm
21 absolutely sure that we can continue my testimony without any delays.
22 I would have a problem if I had to stay because I have a lot of
23 commitments in my place of residence, at the grammar school, at the high
24 school, I have a lot of commitments, and on top of that my health is not
25 all that good. That's why I would like to suggest that we should
2 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber is of the view that requirements for the
3 admission of his statement -- transcript pursuant to Rule 92 ter is not
4 met. The Chamber is very much concerned about this situation, and if
5 similar situation happens in the future, the Chamber may consider taking
6 the lost time to the Defence time, taking out from the Defence time
7 allotted. But in the circumstances, I will leave to the Defence whether
8 to lead this witness live now or postpone his evidence to tomorrow -- to
9 Monday at 9.00 or reschedule his evidence in a proper manner, given the
10 witness's circumstances.
11 MR. ROBINSON: Very well, Your Honour, we won't lead his evidence
12 live because we wouldn't finish his testimony today in any event, so we
13 will discuss with the witness and either he'll testify on Monday or he'll
14 come back at another time or we will make a motion under 92 bis to admit
15 his testimony.
16 JUDGE KWON: Unless there is any other matters to be dealt with
17 or raised --
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE KWON: We will resume on Monday at 9.00. The hearing is
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.10 p.m.,
22 to be reconvened on Monday, the 9th day of
23 December, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.