1 Wednesday, 11 December 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone.
7 Yes, Mr. Harvey.
8 MR. HARVEY: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours. May I
9 introduce Julie Malingreau, who is -- has been with my team since
10 September. She is from Belgium and holds a master's from the University
11 of Amsterdam and also a master's from the University of Louvain-la-Neuve.
12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
13 Yes, Ms. Edgerton, please proceed.
14 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
15 WITNESS: VLADIMIR MATOVIC [Resumed]
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:
18 Q. Good morning, Mr. Matovic. Can you understand me?
19 A. Good morning. Yes, I do understand.
20 Q. I'm not going to keep you too long today, but I'd like to ask you
21 a couple of questions based on some of the things you said yesterday and
22 the statement you signed for Dr. Karadzic's team.
23 A. Very well.
24 Q. All right. Now, yesterday you were explaining Mr. Cosic's
25 position on the arrest of Mr. Izetbegovic, following the publication of
1 the Islamic Declaration. And you had got, if you remember that, to the
2 point where you were explaining how Izetbegovic's wife came with the
3 families of those who had been arrested and brought some money, and then
4 you were interrupted. So, Mr. Matovic, without getting into more detail
5 about -- are you all right, sir?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Without getting into more detail about what you were saying
8 yesterday, I just want to ask you, it's actually correct, isn't it, that
9 in the context of the forum established in Belgrade to protect freedom of
10 speech, Mr. Cosic spoke out in support of non-Serbs under arrest. That's
11 right, isn't it?
12 A. I would kindly ask that I tell you once again in my own words
13 what my recollection is and what I actually said. Maybe it was a slip of
14 the tongue on my part. May I repeat what I said yesterday. No money,
15 for heaven's sake, no. Mr. Cosic to receive it or in any way -- I mean,
16 really. I hope that in most of the world that would be the greatest
17 possible offence, if somebody would offer you that kind of thing. Right
18 now a campaign against corruption is under way in the country, but
19 really, for a man to hold such high office -- well, he wasn't president
20 yet at that time. But still, for him to do that kind of thing, no.
21 At sessions of his own committee, he lodged a protest with the
22 authorities. This was in Belgrade, but it was actually in Sarajevo that
23 the arrest took place, and even I as a journalist was involved in order
24 to write about that, and I said to my own paper -- actually, it was my
25 newspaper and the Sarajevo official newspaper "Oslobodjenje" that was
1 supposed to write about this together. I talked to Izetbegovic and I
2 understood, according to my journalistic knowledge in terms of
3 responsibility and guilt and freedom of expression, my understanding was
4 that there was nothing criminal about what he did, simply that it was his
5 right, because he just claimed that this Islamic Declaration was his
6 religious belief, not anything that had to do so with statehood. That's
7 what Cosic said at the committee's session. He lodged a protest. I
8 mean, I cannot even remember anymore. I mean, he lodged so many protests
9 in Belgrade. He didn't want to go to Sarajevo, he didn't want to
10 interfere in their affairs, but this was a protest. How can someone be
11 prosecuted for expressing his religious beliefs? And then part of the
12 press that was more liberal, sort of, at the time and the families heard
13 about this and the wives, that is to say, the wife of Alija Izetbegovic
14 and -- but look, look. They came home and they brought these gifts that
15 were very sweet, you know oriental sweets, small gifts.
16 Now, the Cosics -- well, he organised a luncheon close to his
17 house. I can't remember now -- I mean, if it really matters to you, I
18 can even try to remember the restaurant where the luncheon was held, and
19 I know that during that conversation Professor Ljubomir Tadic was
20 present, too, because he came from Sarajevo. He was more familiar with
21 the situation there and -- so there was this conversation and Cosic said
22 what he had to say because we Serbs, after all -- well, at the time they
23 claimed amongst the Sarajevo public that all of this came from Belgrade
24 through -- well, and so on and so forth.
25 But he energetically denied that and now I, to the best of my
1 knowledge, think that this is something that really cannot be linked to
2 him as a person and to all the work that he authored. I don't know if
3 you're understanding what I'm saying.
4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Matovic. I'm understanding perfectly and you've
5 answered my question and clarified what you said yesterday.
6 Now, I just want to turn to specifically some things you said in
7 your statement. Now, if I understand your written statement correctly,
8 your evidence as regards Srebrenica, your evidence is that the mass
9 execution in July 1995 of over 7.000 Bosnian men and boys by the armed
10 forces of Republika Srpska was preplanned, preplanned - because that's
11 what we take from your statement - preplanned in an international
12 conspiracy involving German officers -- pardon me, American and German
13 officers and politicians with whom the VRS were in contact. That's what
14 you said in your statement. Is that right?
15 A. First of all, I was either under the influence of some kind of
16 drugs or drink. I don't drink as a rule, but something like that.
17 Really, I kindly ask you to read that out to me. I did not read my
18 statement after I gave it and I cannot believe that. I mean, really.
19 I crossed the Drina and I'm rushing from Zvornik to find out and
20 to inform my bosses, my employers, about what was going on there. The
21 only thing I was told was that in Srebrenica, it seems that some old
22 woman, somebody unofficially said that to me, I mean the people who were
23 far away from Srebrenica, even Han Pijesak and so on and so forth --
24 well, yes. Will that do? Would that be enough for you?
25 Q. Well, what I'll do is I'll -- I'll do what you asked and I'll
1 read you what your statement says. All right. And --
2 JUDGE KWON: Let's upload the statement.
3 MS. EDGERTON: I don't have the exhibit number. It was 1D09095.
4 JUDGE KWON: Exhibit D4184.
5 THE ACCUSED: Could the witness have hard copy, please.
6 JUDGE KWON: We'll see. It's very short.
7 MS. EDGERTON: And --
8 JUDGE KWON: Registry can print out the B/C/S version.
9 MS. EDGERTON: Yes. And for the B/C/S version we should go over
10 to page 2.
11 JUDGE KWON: Sir, we'll print out your statement in hard copy.
12 Bear with us a minute.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you. Thank you very much.
14 MS. EDGERTON:
15 Q. Mr. Matovic, I think to see what I put to you, I think you need
16 to look at the bottom of the first paragraph on page 2.
17 And I'll read it out so that perhaps you can find it a bit more
18 easily, and this is about your meeting with Nadja.
19 Nadja, you said, told you about the danger posed by -- Nadja --
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. She told you about "the danger posed by NATO 'hawks' grouped
22 around some American and German officers and individual politicians" --
23 THE INTERPRETER: Could we please have the exact place in B/C/S.
24 Thank you.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will try to answer if I
1 understood you correctly now. Nada was not --
2 MS. EDGERTON:
3 Q. Could I --
4 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Wait for the question. It's page 2
5 in English.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon. I do apologise.
7 MS. EDGERTON: And, I'm sorry, I'm just trying to find the exact
8 page in Srpski -- or the exact line reference in Srpski for the
9 interpreters. If you could just give me a moment.
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, it's the bottom part of the first paragraph.
11 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, I think it's the -- perhaps the fifth or
12 sixth line up from the bottom of the first paragraph.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I see it. Fifth line from the -- yes, there,
14 in inverted commas. Why don't you read out from an earlier part so that
15 the witness can understand. But I leave it to you.
16 Mr. Matovic, did you find the passage?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I found it.
18 "From Han Pijesak he went to Pale," is that the beginning of the
20 MS. EDGERTON: I don't think he's found it --
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I be of assistance. The
22 previous paragraph, Nadja said to him further on --
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This other paragraph, Nadja -- oh,
24 yes, yes, sorry.
25 "Nadja also said to him -- told him of the danger posed by the
1 NATO 'hawks' grouped around some American and German officers and
2 individual politicians who were regularly in touch through several
3 intelligence agencies with a number of VRS officers. She also warned him
4 that preparations were being made for mass killings of Muslims,
5 especially civilians, to serve" -- now this is what I point out -- so
6 this is a sentence depending on its second clause, so to speak, "to serve
7 as a justification for the already planned NATO operation to attack
8 Republika Srpska."
9 So the first part of the sentence, its beginning -- well, I mean
10 unless you read the entire sentence. Nadja's brief information was that.
11 It was a warning, it was an appeal, not to go into -- well, during the
12 conflict things did happen, I can tell you specifically what and where,
13 so that -- not to do anything that the "hawks" and NATO would use in
14 order to bomb Republika Srpska. I don't know if I was clear and I don't
15 know if this would suffice for your purposes.
16 MS. EDGERTON:
17 Q. Well, it doesn't seem like when you gave your statement you were
18 clear because this statement alleges that the mass executions at
19 Srebrenica by the Bosnian Serb military were preplanned, preplanned, in a
20 conspiracy involving the Americans and the Germans. And that the VRS
21 seems to have been aware of it?
22 A. May I answer by reminding you of what I said yesterday. The
23 warning that she brought was that now the greatest danger for the Serbs
24 is the revanchism of our traditional enemy, Germany; namely, after the
25 Muslim offensive failed, it was abating by then and it did not yield the
1 results that they had promised their financiers and weapons donors, there
2 was a danger of new provocations from the Muslim side. If they manage to
3 stage some kind of revenge or anything that the Serbs would carry out,
4 then, then, that would serve their purposes even more because this would
5 be a justification for NATO to carry out bombing if the Serb forces bomb
6 or in any other way imperil -- I don't know if the interpreters are going
7 to understand this word of ours, that is frail people, frail people, that
8 is to say, women, children, old men. And later on, that is what was
9 being done on the Serb side by way of a reaction. Could you please
10 explain these details to me. I mean, I'm looking at this and -- yes --
11 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Matovic -- Mr. Matovic, it's me.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
13 JUDGE KWON: I'm asking you, Mr. Matovic, take a look at the last
14 sentence in the first paragraph. I will read it out to you again:
15 "She also warned him," "him" being you, "that preparations were
16 being made for mass killings of Muslims ..."
17 You said here that prepare -- she said to you "that preparations
18 were being made for mass killings ..." so this is a wrong formulation
19 according to your words right now, according to your explanation?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I do apologise. I didn't want
21 to interrupt you. In the version that I've been given, I don't seem to
22 be able to find this --
23 THE ACCUSED: Excellencies, problem is with the translation.
24 Probably for the --
25 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
1 I would ask the interpreters to interpret as they are hearing,
2 not according to this English version. Could you read out the last
3 sentence in the above -- in the first paragraph, after the "NATO
4 'hawks' ..."
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Hawks? Oh, yes, the next sentence,
6 right? "He was with Nadja very briefly" --
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, so I repeat this. Right?
9 "She also said to him that Alija Izetbegovic also gave approval
10 to take -- to have Srebrenica taken by the VRS and that to that end
11 Naser Oric received orders that" --
12 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Could you take a look at the
13 monitor. Our usher will indicate with a cursor. Do you see the sentence
14 here on the monitor, "Nadja"?
15 THE ACCUSED: Excellency, he just started to read this.
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes, could you read out from there.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I see it now.
18 "Nadja further on said to him that there is a danger of, as she
19 said, certain politicians -- politicians" --
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You skipped a line, you skipped a
21 line, I beg your pardon. A line was skipped.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Nadja further on said to him that
23 there was a danger of, as she said, hawks in NATO gathered around part of
24 American and German officers and certain politicians and who are in
25 constant contact through a few intelligence services with a certain
1 number of VRS officers, and that what is being prepared is a more massive
2 suffering of the Muslim population, especially civilians, so that that
3 would be a justification for the already-planned operation of NATO to
4 attack Republika Srpska."
5 Now, do you want me to explain this yet again, this sentence?
6 Would you want me to analyse the essence of this sentence in my view --
7 JUDGE KWON: Just a minute, Mr. Matovic. Wait for the question.
8 Thank you for your reading.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 MS. EDGERTON: Maybe we could collapse the English version so
12 that if Mr. Matovic has to look back to his statement it will be clearer
13 to him.
14 Q. So, Mr. Matovic --
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. -- there was no conspiracy - that's what you're telling us?
17 A. I don't understand.
18 JUDGE KWON: Did he say ever there was a conspiracy?
19 MS. EDGERTON: No, that was my question to him, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
21 MS. EDGERTON:
22 Q. Mr. Matovic, do you accept, then, that in July 1995, members of
23 the Bosnian Serb Army and the Bosnian Serb police executed more than
24 7.000 Bosnian men and boys? Do you accept that? That's true, isn't it?
25 A. Well, I never came across such suggestive, leading questions. If
1 the point of Nadja's arrival and my conversation with her and -- I mean,
2 I have this experience as a journalist when I receive information, the
3 most important thing for me is whether the person involved is
4 well-intentioned, competent. I would have had further questions, but I
5 didn't put any questions to her. She saw the expression on my face when
6 she started talking about what was going on in NATO, new attacks,
7 et cetera. She probably saw the look on my face and then expanded this
8 sentence. She did not ask me about the number of casualties --
9 Q. No -- no --
10 A. -- and whether there were any conflicts and I did not know. I
11 came from the other side of the Drina River --
12 Q. Mr. Matovic, now, now, almost 20 years after the fact, do you
13 accept that Bosnian Serb military and police perpetrated the mass
14 executions of over 7.000 Bosnian men and boys in Srebrenica in July 1995?
15 Do you accept that now as true?
16 A. I accept, but not with a yes or no. I accept it with a short
17 explanation, if you would allow me just two sentences in reply.
18 JUDGE KWON: Please carry on, Mr. Matovic.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To this day, many things remain
20 unclear to me, although I have spent perhaps more time there than most
21 Yugoslav journalists and politicians and have spent a lot of my time
22 trying to explain to others the gist of this conflict. And still today
23 my colleagues, journalists, reporters, approach me asking for a briefing,
24 for an explanation, but still some essential things remain unclear to me.
25 One of the most unclear things to me is how a small town such as
1 Srebrenica which, statistically, according to censuses had 8- to
2 10.000 population and 300 houses. Who are the 7.000 men, fighting men,
3 who came there and who was executed? I know the birth-rate used as a
4 policy that they had taken over from the Albanians --
5 Q. Mr. Matovic --
6 A. -- the elevated birth-rates that are the strongest weapon against
7 Europeans --
8 JUDGE KWON: Just let him continue --
9 MS. EDGERTON: Apologies, Your Honour.
10 JUDGE KWON: -- and see how far he goes.
11 MS. EDGERTON: Fine.
12 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Mr. Matovic.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So for me to answer such questions
14 from someone who's coming from Belgrade to receive a message and for that
15 person to communicate to Nadja because even with my close friends who
16 share my views and opinions about the situation in the world and
17 especially on the borders of our country -- I mean, what kind of
18 fighting -- I was even told that there was not much fighting in Potocari,
19 that the battalion had pulled out and the civilians followed the
20 battalion because they had been promised asylum and employment in the
21 United States, in Europe, et cetera; whereas the army was there at first,
22 and the first one to leave was Naser Oric - I don't know if that's in my
23 statement - and he was followed by other military able-bodied men who
24 headed for Zepa and other enclaves under their control, their bases.
25 JUDGE KWON: Do you remember the question, Mr. Matovic? So your
1 answer is: Yes?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Did I convey to Nadja or anyone
3 else that the Serbs had killed there 7.000 Muslims? I hear such a round
4 figure for the first time. Later on, there were claims from the Muslim
5 side to that effect, but I learned about it gradually more from the media
6 than directly, although I continued visiting Republika Srpska --
7 JUDGE KWON: The question was: As you sit here now today, do you
8 accept that about 7.000 Muslims were killed?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot accept something,
10 especially not in the form of my statement, something that I don't know
11 about. The only thing I do know is that from all theatres of war in
12 Yugoslavia at that time, in Croatia, in Bosnia-Herzegovina, in Kosovo and
13 Metohija later, every party to that war tended to maximise its losses,
14 the civilians who were killed, unlike some previous wars where commands
15 used to minimise their losses. In this war, every side --
16 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Matovic --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- exaggerated the numbers of
18 casualties and dead.
19 JUDGE KWON: I think you answered the question, but before
20 Ms. Edgerton continues.
21 Mr. Robinson, having seen such a discrepancy between the original
22 and English translation, I can't see how Ms. Edgerton can continue her
23 cross-examination. I'm not sure whether the other part -- the
24 translations of other parts are correct. So I would like to first ask
25 who prepared this, who translated?
1 MR. ROBINSON: The Registry's language section.
2 JUDGE KWON: Probably I would ask the witness to tell us live,
3 from the beginning till the end, about his contact with Nadja. How you
4 came to meet her and what you talked -- the conversation with her and
5 what you did in Han Pijesak. Could you tell us, as far as you remember.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Han Pijesak with Nadja -- no. I
8 met with her in Zvornik --
9 JUDGE KWON: Let me ask you then. So could you explain to us how
10 you came to meet Nadja first?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I noticed her because, you must
12 understand, I was much younger then. I noticed her in the entourage of
13 General Gallois, who travelled to Romania rather often in that period,
14 and for various reasons and various errands he often stopped by in
15 Belgrade. He would call us in advance from Bucharest or Timisoara. But
16 you understand I'm not an investigator or a prosecutor, and I didn't know
17 that I would have to testify about this later. But he asked mostly for
18 books, materials, our information that we had about the developments in
19 our state, in our country as it was then, and our current Western
20 neighbours, former Yugoslav republics --
21 JUDGE KWON: Let me help you. Did Mr. Bulatovic ask you to meet
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, he didn't ask for that.
24 Officially I think he was even on vacation, and when that meeting was
25 held, he said I should go because I know the situation very well, whereas
1 he was a Montenegrin who was not really involved in that, not well
2 informed. He learned more later but not at that time. I don't even know
3 what the phrasing was. He was simply looking for a person who was not
4 too busy and he said it would be good if I could go.
5 You know, July is a time when people go on holiday, and at that
6 time I was still able to go on holiday with my family. I think you
7 understand what I'm talking about. So I didn't really feel like going to
8 Srebrenica; I wasn't keen on it. I had things to do with my family, but
9 out of the three of them I was the least busy and that's why I accepted.
10 There were no orders involved or it was not interference, and as far as I
11 remember, he told me: It would be good if you, Vlada, could go because
12 you know the people, you know the situation --
13 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 THE ACCUSED: Excellency, if I may --
16 JUDGE KWON: No, just a second.
17 We'll see how this witness can answer this question and see --
18 we'll consider whether this witness should be led live from the outset.
19 Mr. Matovic, did you meet Nadja at the Vidikovac restaurant? Do
20 you remember the meeting?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, on the terrace of that
22 motel called Vidikovac, overlooking the lake.
23 JUDGE KWON: So could you begin your story from there. What did
24 you talk about with Nadja?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's no story. I was not in any
1 kind of position to consider with her --
2 JUDGE KWON: My apologies -- no --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and deliberate --
4 JUDGE KWON: No, it's my mistake. Could you tell us what you
5 heard from Nadja at that restaurant?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that in this statement,
7 although I can't read it all now, it is described clearly --
8 JUDGE KWON: No, just a second --
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- she started saying things that
10 were --
11 JUDGE KWON: Without relying on your statement, could you tell us
12 as far as you remember what you heard from Nadja at that restaurant?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Encounters with persons of that
14 kind - because she was not a politician or a military strategist, just as
15 I was not - from my personal experience, both as a journalist and later
16 from working in the office of the president, was as follows. Ultimately
17 an impression is created, although things got very confused, that there
18 is something that I should convey. She told me exactly what is said in
19 this statement --
20 JUDGE KWON: Just a second --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- I don't know if there is a
22 translation issue --
23 JUDGE KWON: [Previous translation continues] ...
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- but I can tell you, I can repeat
25 what she said.
1 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton, did you want to say something?
4 MS. EDGERTON: That he was reading his statement.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
6 THE ACCUSED: But, Excellencies, I would like you --
7 JUDGE KWON: Given that his statement is very short, I think he
8 should be led live.
9 THE ACCUSED: Excellencies, I would like you to see the last
10 sentence that you didn't get translation, since you have been conferring.
11 He can repeat what she said.
12 JUDGE KWON: He's reading his statement. Unfortunately, the
13 Chamber is not satisfied that this statement should be admitted into
14 evidence pursuant to Rule 92 ter. I will consult my colleagues.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes, could the witness be excused for a moment.
17 Mr. Matovic, if you could excuse yourself for a moment.
18 [The witness stands down]
19 JUDGE KWON: In light of the discrepancy, first, between the
20 original and the English translation and, secondly, his statement and his
21 oral testimony, the Chamber is of the view it is fair enough to -- for
22 the witness to be led live, if Mr. Karadzic is to call him as his
23 witness. But if he wishes, in light of these circumstances, he may
24 reschedule his evidence later on if he so wishes.
25 MR. ROBINSON: Well, Mr. President, I think that -- because this
1 witness is old and it's very difficult for him to make this trip, we'll
2 just go ahead and lead his evidence live and we'll just try to settle the
3 bill with you later as to how the hours would be allocated for that.
4 JUDGE MORRISON: But, Mr. Robinson, isn't the real difficulty
5 going to be if this witness is -- he's an elderly gentleman, he's trying
6 to recall things that happened 20 years ago, he seems to be having
7 difficulty remembering independent of the statement. If he's not going
8 to be using the statement as it is, and it seems he can't because of the
9 translation issues, in reality is this something you want to advise
10 Dr. Karadzic -- have five minutes to advise Dr. Karadzic on as to whether
11 or not there is any realistic benefit to the Defence in continuing with
12 this witness as matters stand?
13 MR. ROBINSON: Well, it's always good to consider things, but
14 frankly, this witness is here because he met Dr. Karadzic in July 1995
15 and says Dr. Karadzic didn't have very good information about Srebrenica.
16 So I think we could lead that part of the evidence live and Ms. Edgerton
17 can deal with the rest of it as far as I'm concerned. But we can discuss
18 that and see if that's what Dr. Karadzic wants to do.
19 JUDGE KWON: Do you have any observation, Ms. Edgerton?
20 MR. TIEGER: If I can -- if I may just note, Mr. President, I
21 think Mr. Robinson attempted to put a kind of marker down which I can't
22 imagine the Court shares, and that is "we'll settle the bill later," as
23 if this is somehow the Chamber's responsibility. So I don't think that
24 should be entered into the record as if some kind of concord was struck
25 between Mr. Robinson and the Chamber and it will be thrashed out later.
1 I don't think that's the Court's intention at all.
2 JUDGE KWON: No.
3 THE ACCUSED: Could I ask --
4 JUDGE KWON: Would you like to --
5 THE ACCUSED: Could I ask about -- could the general questions
6 about first and second paragraph be admitted, not to be repeated?
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
8 MS. EDGERTON: No, the witness said: I didn't read my statement
9 after my gave it. So no, under no circumstances, I would think.
10 JUDGE KWON: Would you like us to rise for some time to discuss
11 it with Mr. Karadzic?
12 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, that would be good. If we
13 could take a five-minute recess.
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll resume at 10.00.
15 --- Break taken at 9.53 a.m.
16 --- On resuming at 10.02 a.m.
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic or Mr. Robinson.
18 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, we will make our best effort
19 to lead the witness live at this time.
20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. So what we are going to do is to vacate
21 the admission of his statement pursuant to 92 ter. So we'll vacate the
22 number as well, but what remains will remain on the transcript and we'll
23 hear the witness live. Very well.
24 Shall we bring in the witness.
25 [The witness takes the stand]
1 JUDGE KWON: Good morning again, Mr. Matovic.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
3 JUDGE KWON: There is an issue with translation and something
4 else, so we -- the Chamber has decided to hear your evidence orally
5 instead of through your written statement. So Mr. Karadzic will ask you
6 questions. Do you follow? Do you understand that?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.
8 JUDGE KWON: Please bear in mind just one thing. Because
9 Mr. Karadzic and you are speaking the same language, you need to put a
10 pause between the question and answer. Therefore, please wait for some
11 time after he posed his question before you start your answer.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
14 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Excellencies. Good
16 morning to everybody.
17 Examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]
18 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Matovic.
19 A. Good morning, Mr. Karadzic.
20 Q. This was too fast. Please make a longer pause.
21 Mr. Matovic, let's forget about any statements. Could you please
22 tell us whether you met me in July 1995?
23 A. In July 1995, whether I met you at all?
24 Q. Were you in my office in July 1995?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Can you remember what we discussed at that time?
2 A. Let me just say one thing, I met you when I was pressed for time,
3 and it was on two occasions. The first time was around Srebrenica,
4 around that operation, and later it was around the events in the
5 Republic of Croatia and Republika Srpska. We met twice briefly. The
6 first time with regard to Srebrenica and I told you that -- or rather, I
7 don't remember whether I told you about a link that existed between the
8 two of us. I don't know whether I explained to you who that was. I told
9 you that I had information. I'm confused that -- with certain things. I
10 don't know whether some of the text for my future books have been
11 preserved -- hold on, hold on, let me just tell you this. I have never
12 told anybody about that meeting with Nadja. I never said to anybody
13 whether she asked me about war operations. I don't know where she had
14 come from. I never asked her in our relations. It is not polite. Any
15 subsequent question questions the credibility of that person if you speak
16 about their intentions.
17 Q. Mr. Matovic, let's ignore that. The statement is off the table.
18 Can you remember what the two of us discussed and did you establish what
19 I knew? Did I establish what you knew about Srebrenica?
20 A. I was not the one who could inform you because I did not have any
21 information about these events. I only told you that we had a benevolent
22 source and that we received information from that source that there had
23 been a breakup in NATO, that there had been a rift in NATO, and that
24 after a lull and after the end of the Muslim offensive, some of the
25 representatives said that the war was futile and that the Serbs were
1 already holding over 70 per cent of the territory. But it was not what I
2 heard from Nadja. Nadja told me what I said in my written statement.
3 There was rift in the top echelons of NATO, there were divisions into
4 hawks and pigeons, i.e., those who were in favour for those -- for the
5 continuation of the war and -- on the one hand and the others who didn't
6 want a war, who did not want to go on paying for those senseless wars.
7 Q. Thank you. When it comes to the events in Srebrenica, did you
8 ask me anything and how much I knew about all that?
9 A. I expected from you to tell me because I was a journalist, I had
10 not returned to you with her message because as a journalist that would
11 have seemed that I had been there, and at the same time I did not
12 document any of that because my conversation with her, all of the
13 information that I received from her, I knew that she had brought that
14 information from either The Hague or Brussels. I don't know where from.
15 And the message was just a warning and an appeal --
16 Q. Thank you.
17 A. She wanted to prevent us from falling into a trap.
18 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Let's ignore Nadja.
19 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. We can continue.
20 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
22 Please continue.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Mr. Matovic, let's not mention Nadja at all. What did the two of
25 us discuss? Did you ask me anything? Did you inform me about anything?
1 What did I ask you?
2 A. What I remember --
3 JUDGE KWON: [Previous translation continues] ...
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- from that conversation --
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
6 MS. EDGERTON: With respect, Your Honour, Dr. Karadzic should be
7 particularly careful in formulating his questions for this question,
8 given what's gone on previously, and he should refrain from piling it on,
9 as he's been doing, in a leading manner.
10 JUDGE KWON: Let me help you. Mr. Matovic, do you remember
11 meeting Mr. Karadzic in July 1995?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember -- may I continue?
13 JUDGE KWON: My question was whether you remembered having met
14 Mr. Karadzic in July 1995. The answer could be either yes or no.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE KWON: Do you remember how many times you met Mr. Karadzic
17 in July 1995.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember that meeting and an
19 attempt to meet him. I had some letters to give him but I didn't meet
20 with him, but with his clerk in the offices of the Presidency of the
21 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. He was not there, nobody knew when he
22 was coming back. I had some letters which I left with his secretary,
23 like many times before.
24 JUDGE KWON: So you met once in July 1995 Mr. Karadzic?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One correction, please. I no
1 longer know what is a statement, what is a translated statement. I only
2 know that we met twice, but I don't know whether that meeting was in
3 July. I arrived with similar information, and the second time I met with
4 Nadja who gave me information -- but I don't know whether that was in
5 July or August. I really can't remember as I sit here today. I don't
6 know whether it was towards the end of July. I can't remember when I
7 shared with him the information about the Republic of Serbian Krajina and
8 the preparations for that situation over there.
9 JUDGE KWON: So when you met Mr. Karadzic in July 1995, what did
10 you discuss with Mr. Karadzic at the time? Could you tell us as far as
11 you remember?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Most of which I remember was him
13 talking about reliability. His main source of information was CNN. He
14 asked me whether I knew anything about comments in the printed press
15 because I was a journalist for "Politika" for a while and I followed wars
16 and similar things. We exchanged opinions about that; however, I had
17 arrived in his office to ask him what he knew about all that and whether
18 he could inform those people and ask them what was correct, whether a war
19 had indeed started, what its intensity was and so on and so forth. As
20 far as I can remember, he told me that he was also told just like I was.
21 The feedback that I received - and let me tell you, this is a bit morbid,
22 a bit banal - that they were aware of an old woman who was a victim, but
23 nobody spoke about 7.000 soldiers who were killed. That was unheard of,
24 and so on and so forth.
25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
1 Back to you, Mr. Karadzic. You'll be better off if you ask one
2 question at one time. Please continue.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Did we discuss some prisoners at the time during that meeting?
6 A. As far as I can remember, much, much later there were talks about
7 prisoners, and especially about those prisoners when President Cosic
8 invited the Nobel Prize winner Elie Wiesel came to visit Belgrade, it was
9 a humanitarian visit, and he wanted to receive information about camps
10 where Muslims were detained in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Then I visited
11 you again. You told me what you did and I conveyed that message to
12 Mr. Wiesel. I said: Sir, where you think those camps are and if you
13 have that information from Belgrade, you will not have any obstacles from
14 Belgrade. I believe that his escorts can confirm that. Just a moment,
15 please. There were helicopters, there were APCs where he went, and the
16 rule was never to agree things well in advance, but on that morning when
17 I arrived, then he would tell me where we were going and then I would
18 take him there. There was fighting around most of the camps, but I'm
19 telling you -- did you understand me? Are you happy with my answer?
20 Q. Thank you.
21 A. Then we talked and you said that everything would be open to him.
22 Of course, one had to look at the situation, Manjaca, around Gorazde,
23 Foca, and Banja Luka, to see whether it was safe to go to those places.
24 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us whether it transpired that I
25 was well informed about the events that took place in Srebrenica in
1 July 1995? When we met, did you gain the impression --
2 JUDGE KWON: Before you answer the question, yes.
3 MS. EDGERTON: This is completely leading and inappropriate,
4 Your Honours.
5 JUDGE KWON: Can you reformulate your question.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Mr. Matovic, how well informed was I about the events in
10 A. I repeat, when somebody says that they are informed mostly
11 through CNN -- and as a professional I don't have anything against them,
12 I follow CNN as well. However, if one has only one source of information
13 and if you told me one sentence which I can only paraphrase and you said
14 that you knew that there was an operation going on and that I could not
15 take more information to Belgrade about the essence of those things and
16 so on and so forth. And that's why at the end of that journey I myself
17 tried to go there to get to Bratunac, to General Mladic, who was going to
18 tell me perhaps -- and the others generals that I found in Han Pijesak,
19 they were the logistics command and they claimed that they didn't know
20 anything. And when I told them what was being written and what we saw on
21 television, for example, they said that they didn't know anything about
22 that, that they couldn't believe that. By way of illustration, I'm
23 telling you this to illustrate the tone of that conversation. So when I
24 brought those letters, I suppose that I brought some fresher information
25 that we had received from other sides. I can't remember that for a fact.
1 In this court, there were trials against the French, the Gaullis [phoen],
2 who communicated with our military representatives and who provided them
3 with information that you're asking me to give you today. I was not a
4 military --
5 Q. Can you please explain, you said that: "... I could not take to
6 Belgrade information." Why you couldn't take any information from me to
8 A. Because, and this is exactly what I told them, that you were not
9 well-informed or that you don't have enough information, and as far as I
10 can remember, there is quite a distance between Srebrenica and Pale, and
11 those formations passed through that then and before that, and it was not
12 safe to go from Srebrenica to Pale. So I don't know when was it that
13 your security would have allowed you to go there because I myself was
14 warned, and it did happen to me, albeit later, when I was in the car with
15 your director of the state bank, we passed by a Muslim column which was
16 resting there. So I'm sure that they would not have allowed you to put
17 yourself in such situation.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions for
20 Mr. Matovic.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
22 Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton: [Continued]
23 Q. Mr. Matovic, when you met Dr. Karadzic and had a discussion with
24 him, he didn't tell you anything about the information he was receiving
25 about what was going on in Srebrenica from his soldiers, their
1 commanders, his police, their commanders, members of the diaspora, the
2 Serbian diaspora, and his local political officials. He didn't tell you
3 anything about all the information he was receiving from them, did he?
4 A. Would you accept my attempt? I don't know how much you know
5 about this. May I respond in a journalistic way, which is closer to me?
6 Would that suit you?
7 Q. Mr. Matovic --
8 A. Yes?
9 Q. -- I specifically formulated the question so you could answer it
10 actually quite easily rather than in a journalistic way. My question
11 was: He didn't tell you anything about all the other information he was
12 receiving, did he? You could answer yes or no.
13 A. Well, I cannot. Quite simply, I didn't put questions like that
14 to him. That's what I'm trying to tell you. If you have the patience --
15 as a reader of newspapers, you will understand. Am I allowed to answer
16 in a specific, telling way?
17 JUDGE KWON: Could you be brief?
18 Let's hear him, yes.
19 Be brief, Mr. Matovic.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll try to be as succinct as
22 I was a journalist for 40 years and then I lectured at the
23 institute of journalism. I gave lectures to foreign students about the
24 selection of information. I had surprising news from Nadja, front-page
25 news. But when news is front-page news, then it has to be -- well, this
1 time I was not a journalist. I was there as a rapporteur for the people
2 who sent me there, to bring some news. And if I have an explanation --
3 now, whether I'm going to manage for this knowledge to be front-page
4 news, all of it, or will something have to go to the other pages. But
5 how could I when Mr. Karadzic said to me that he also, concerning the
6 proportions of the conflict and this operation, whether it was a war
7 operation or not, he said that at that point in time he did not know
8 that, that he was not informed.
9 I mean this is a set of circumstances and a person has to respond
10 quickly, and one does not have the time -- well, the president of the
11 republic -- after all, I was supposed to understand whether this
12 information that I received -- whether I could have more details. I
13 could -- I did not have the time to go to the front line, but also I was
14 advised by the logistics command in Han Pijesak not to go. But not
15 because of the operations but because the commander of the army,
16 General Mladic, was constantly from Bijeljina, Zepa, this was war time,
17 inaccessible. Now, whether they said this to me or not -- I mean, he had
18 a helicopter. He had everything that was necessary. It was hard --
19 Well, that is what he advised me and --
20 MS. EDGERTON:
21 Q. Mr. Matovic?
22 A. Yes?
23 Q. So I take it from what you're saying that the answer to my
24 question is: No, Dr. Karadzic didn't tell you anything about the
25 information he was getting from other sources; right?
1 A. Yes, I cannot. Because I did not have the time to comment upon
2 the situation at the front line. I asked him whether he knew what the
3 intensity was. As for what Nadja said to me, could -- could I enrich
4 that with some new knowledge? And he said no because he himself was
5 insufficiently informed and did not know when he would receive relevant
7 Q. All right --
8 A. And I was in a hurry and -- yes? Yes, please go ahead and sorry.
9 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, I note the time. If you'd like to
10 take a break now, it would probably take me about seven minutes after we
11 resume again. I could probably make things even shorter after a half an
12 hour's reflection.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll take a break for half an hour.
14 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
15 --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
17 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honours. On reflection, I have no
18 further questions of Mr. Matovic.
19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.
20 Do you have any re-examination?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, Excellency. Thank you.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Matovic, before we broke you said when you met
24 Mr. Karadzic you said, I quote:
25 "This time I was not a journalist. I was there as a rapporteur
1 for the people who sent me there to bring some news."
2 Could you clarify what you meant by this?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I come from a profession that
4 has its rules where I worked for 40 years, and then after a few months I
5 found myself in the complete opposite in terms of the freedom of
6 behaviour, activity, et cetera, that kind of profession, where other
7 rules were in force. When I said that, that's what I meant. Also, there
8 are some books, some people from Belgrade held it against me, colleagues,
9 friends, said that while I was an official I was not open at all. And
10 then we clarified the matter and they publicly apologised. From one
11 profession I found myself in a completely different one that has its own
13 What is communicated to me -- I mean, it's not for me if an
14 interlocutor communicates some information to me, and especially if they
15 do not communicate some information to me, it's not for me to comment
16 upon anything with the bearer of such information. So that's the only
17 thing I meant. Her job was to bring information; my job was to convey
18 information. And at that moment when I went to Mr. Karadzic and all
19 that, for me -- after all, it was the journalist in me that surfaced. It
20 was a sensational information, the content of that information, and so I
21 tried with the two most competent persons to -- well, just as I did,
22 contrary to the interests of the authorities, I was supposed to talk to
23 Alija Izetbegovic as well, but I refused that because of certain
24 convictions of my own, journalistic convictions. And now, when I was a
25 civil servant working for the state, I got this sensational news, and for
1 them it would be a sensation, too, but without anything to corroborate
2 it. But I didn't have time then to go to Srebrenica or anywhere else. I
3 just went to the top place to confirm or deny that.
4 Quite simply, I was told what I was told, and as for the
5 prosecutor's office and everyone else, I do apologise to all of you.
6 It's not only against the moral, professional, and other rules in terms
7 of what I did beforehand. But I think that anywhere, in any profession,
8 even the most special police -- after all, people have to have certain
9 boundaries and see how they're going to behave to who. I mean, you can
10 treat a certain person as the president of the republic or not, but I
11 have to because at that moment he is officially president of the
12 republic. And I cannot ask the president of the republic: Tell me, how
13 many dead are there down there, and so on? That's not my role, that's
14 not my function, and professionally that was not allowed. At that
15 place -- I mean there -- it's not that I'm trying to glorify the
16 journalist professional in ethical terms or whatever, but there are some
17 rules of conduct or rules of the game, if you will.
18 So I cannot answer that, what it was that we talked about. We
19 talked about -- I mean, I asked him whether he knew what the message was
20 that was conveyed to me, whether approximately you see some looming
21 danger, threat, not to play into the hands of the other side and so on
22 and so forth. And his answer was that, unfortunately, he does not have
23 enough, especially from all sides, and even there during the operations
24 that he would follow, and that's how it all ended.
25 JUDGE KWON: When you met Mr. Karadzic, were you still working at
1 the Presidency of Yugoslavia?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, of course. Actually, in a way
3 I was working, but I did not have a specific post. I was an official at
4 large, if you will. It was, say, adviser for extraordinary situations.
5 I did not have the post and office that I had when I was adviser to the
6 president of the republic, but the Ministry of Defence then and later on
7 during the war operations, NATO, that was called responding to foreign
8 hostile propaganda.
9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
10 This is a question for the parties: Is the meeting of this
11 witness with Mr. Karadzic reflected in his agenda? What -- if the
12 parties could remind me of the date.
13 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, the meeting is not reflected in the
15 MS. EDGERTON: That's correct, it is not. And we don't have a
16 date --
17 JUDGE KWON: Very well --
18 MS. EDGERTON: -- of this meeting.
19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
20 Mr. Matovic, that concludes your evidence. On behalf of this
21 Chamber, I would like to thank you for your coming to The Hague to give
22 it. Please have a safe journey back home.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much indeed.
24 [The witness withdrew]
25 JUDGE KWON: Is there any further change to the witness schedule?
1 MR. ROBINSON: No, Mr. President. The next witness is
2 Mr. Milincic and he should be here.
3 JUDGE KWON: And then after him?
4 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. Kovacevic.
5 JUDGE KWON: And then?
6 MR. ROBINSON: I don't believe we will reach Mr. Radinkovic, so
7 then tomorrow we will start with Colonel Blagojevic and General Tolimir.
8 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
9 [The witness entered court]
10 JUDGE KWON: Would the witness make the solemn declaration,
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
13 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I would
14 like to add something. May God help me as I speak.
15 WITNESS: MILOS MILINCIC
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Milincic. Please be seated and make
18 yourself comfortable.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
21 Before you commence your evidence, Mr. Milincic, I must draw your
22 attention to a certain rule of evidence that we have here at the
23 Tribunal, that is, Rule 90(E). Under this rule, you may object to
24 answering any question from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecutor, or even from
25 the Judges if you believe that your answer might incriminate you in a
1 criminal offence. In this context, "incriminate" means saying something
2 that might amount to an admission of guilt for a criminal offence or
3 saying something that might provide evidence that you might have
4 committed a criminal offence. However, should you think that an answer
5 might incriminate you and, as a consequence, you refuse to answer the
6 question, I must let you know that the Tribunal has the power to compel
7 you to answer the question. But in that situation, the Tribunal would
8 ensure that your testimony compelled under such circumstances would not
9 be used in any case that might be laid against you for any offence, save
10 and except the offence of giving false testimony.
11 Do you understand that, Mr. Milincic?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand perfectly.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
14 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.
15 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
16 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Professor Milincic.
17 A. Good day. Good luck to you and God bless you.
18 Q. Thank you. It's going to be very hard for them to interpret
19 that. It's a very old adage of ours, or rather, it's a verse from
20 Njegos. I have to ask you something, let us pause between question and
21 answer, and as we utter our sentences, we should try to be as slow as
22 possible so that they would be recorded in the transcript.
23 Could I kindly ask you to give us your name and surname, your
24 father's name, your date and place of birth.
25 A. Of course. Milos Milincic, professor of literature, retired. I
1 live in Bajinci, in Banja Luka, right now. The 15th of December, 1942.
2 I have a family, two children.
3 Q. Thank you. Milincic -- Milincic is the right spelling. Thank
5 Tell us about your political and professional career. What were
6 all the things you did?
7 A. I worked as a professor in school. I taught the Serbian language
8 and literature. I was the principal of an elementary school and then a
9 high school. And in the elections in 1990, I was elected speaker of the
10 Srbac Assembly according to the will of the citizens and political party.
11 And then I was director of the educational institute in Banja Luka and I
12 retired from there. As for party and ideological affiliation, I was a
13 member of the League of Communists until 1990, from the time when I did
14 my military service. And then in 1990 I became a member of the Serb
15 Democratic Party.
16 Q. Thank you. During your career, professional and political, were
17 you commended, awarded? Did you receive any decorations?
18 A. Yes, as a professor in school I won top prizes in the subject of
19 language because pupils were tested every year in the region of the
20 Krajina, Banja Luka, at the time. And I also have two decorations,
21 Njegos 1st order and Njegos 2nd order, and I also have some other tokens
22 of recognition, if you will. I did not mention that the municipality
23 also commended me for taking certain measures in the municipality during
24 the war to preserve peace.
25 Q. Not taking certain measures to preserve peace, but to preserve
1 peace; right?
2 A. Yes, and to develop the municipality.
3 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us what the ethnic composition was of
4 your municipality in 1990 and 1991?
5 A. Identical, like today and before 1990 -- actually, from 1948
6 onwards, the first elections held after that war. 91 to 95 per cent of
7 the Serb municipality and the population is 21.800-something. This last
8 sentence showed that the number is a bit less, about 19.000. So the
9 ethnic composition of the municipality of Srbac is 95 per cent Serbs.
10 Q. This decrease, in proportional terms, how is that reflected in
11 terms of the ethnic communities?
12 A. I understand what you're saying. In terms of percentage, Serbs,
13 Muslims, Croats, Ruthenians, Czechs, there was a proportional decrease,
14 about a thousand inhabitants less than ten years ago.
15 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us what the name Srbac means
16 and whether we changed it during the war, or rather, when was this name
18 A. Yes, there was some prejudice there and some malicious
19 interpretations in terms of the name Srbac. I think that some
20 connotations came even from here, that Srbac is a new municipality. No.
21 Sometime in November, I think, 1933, that is to say, during the
22 Kingdom of Yugoslavia, the minister of the interior of the Kingdom of
23 Yugoslavia made a decision that Bosanski Svinjar -- there were two
24 Svinjars, now there is a new one, Davor. So Bosnian Svinjar was supposed
25 to be renamed Srbac in 1933.
1 Q. Thank you. Can you just tell the Trial Chamber what that means,
2 the name of the town?
3 A. There are three versions why, in 1933, this name was inaugurated.
4 The Sava River meanders nearby in the shape of a scythe, so that is what
5 people thought it meant, but no. Also it is the Serbs, the ethnic
6 composition there, and then Serbs, Srbac, so that that led to the name of
8 Q. I hope that the transcript, when they listen to all of this,
9 they're going to put the right names there. All right. Can you tell us
10 in terms of politics, which political party did you join in 1990 and why,
11 what led you to join that party?
12 A. Well, yes. I worked as a professor in a secondary school. I
13 taught my students, I taught them literature and language. I have to say
14 that there were quite a few students from Croatia, from Davor, who
15 crossed the Sava River in boats in order to attend school. And then when
16 these things happened, when multi-national states started disintegrating,
17 the Soviet Union, Czechoslovakia, as I followed Dedijer's book, his book
18 called "A Contribution to the Biography of Josip Broz Tito," I thought
19 that it was time to identify ourselves culturally, linguistically and
20 ethnically, quite simply that we should not be ashamed and that we should
21 not be afraid of acknowledging this co-existence. I thought it was time
22 to affirm that which is good for all the ethnic communities. In that
23 other war in 1941, 1945, in the Srbac municipality, there were never any
24 conflicts, especially not with the Croats. And I thought that as a
25 humanist I could contribute to the affirmation of all to a maximum
1 degree. It was it. Maybe this was a rather romantic credo that I could
2 help the development of democracy in that area.
3 Q. Thank you. When did you establish that political party and did I
4 attend that gathering?
5 A. Yes, on the 28th of July, in Srbac, we had an initiative
6 committee. I happened to be there -- well, I'm not saying by accident,
7 but I wanted to observe things and see how things would develop. And our
8 priest suggested that I be a member of this initiative committee, and
9 then people thought: Well, a humanist, a literate man, not encumbered by
10 this or that, and in that kind of environment, that kind of man was
11 needed. And that's how it started. You know, as they say, it's hard for
12 people to let you go once you've joined in.
13 And then I went around, making speeches, and then this ceremony
14 took place in Srbac on the 31st of August, 1990. On the square in
15 Srbac -- well, the journalists estimated that there were about 10.000
16 people there. The population of the town of Srbac is 6.000 otherwise.
17 So there were about 10.000 people there. I spoke there, you spoke there,
18 Vojo Kupresanin spoke there, Zlatko Kelecevic, and we said what the
19 objective was, what the programme of the party was, ecology, to conserve
20 the environment, also to develop these relations of partnership. I can
21 say that you got quite a bit of applause and I think that I provided that
22 by way of evidence. I think that you really won over the audience with a
23 single sentence. Can I say what that was?
24 Q. Please go ahead.
25 A. That went on for about two hours and then you spoke and you said
1 that it is being held against us, the Serb Democratic Party, that we were
2 too peaceful. And you quoted a folk epic about Marko Kraljevic and his
3 mother because he was behaving in strange way, carrying his spear the
4 other way around, and he said: If we run into trouble, I can turn the
5 spear. And you said that's what we're going to do. And then the key
6 sentence that won over the audience, these were ovations: Some
7 adventures are advocating peace -- advocating war --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- but they did not ask Serb
10 mothers whether they had children to send to war. A garden is most
11 beautiful when it is multi-coloured, so do your best in order to have
12 your neighbours live in safety and security so that they do not feel
13 squeezed in as a minority. That was truly welcomed.
14 I have to say that this campaign was ideological rather than
15 ethnic. How do I put this? It was a sort of competition between the
16 former communists and the new national parties. So it was a clash
17 between the right wing and the left wing. On ethnic grounds, nobody
18 would have won any votes in Srbac if they said anything bad about Serbs,
19 about Croats, about Muslims.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Thank you.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown 1D15612.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. We'll show a video-clip that you announced a moment ago.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D15612. It should be played from
2 [Video-clip played]
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Can you tell us what we are looking at?
5 A. Yes, that's that famous rally. It was already dusk.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we rewind to the beginning and
7 turn the volume up. The interpreters have a transcript.
8 [Video-clip played]
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's the applause I
11 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Our enemies are not only those who
12 hate the Serbs. Our enemies are those who are against democracy, and I
13 can tell you that democracy is threatened these days. It's threatened
14 not only by those who had been in power until now but" --
15 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Why don't we upload the transcript,
16 English and B/C/S, and then -- unless there's a -- unless Mr. Tieger
17 opposes to that idea. I don't think there's a point reviewing this image
18 at this condition right now.
19 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Mr. President. No, of course I have no
20 objection to that.
21 JUDGE KWON: Shall we switch to e-court.
22 MR. ROBINSON: It should be page 2.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we show the second page with
24 a passage that begins at 11.15. If the parties agree, we can tender the
25 entire transcript, of course, but I would like this shown in the
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Can you introduce this part of the speech, Professor Milincic?
4 A. You concluded that popular gathering and people had perhaps
5 expected some very rigid positions from you, but after you said that
6 democracy was threatened on many levels, that many people, some people at
7 least of adventurous vent who were advocating war, obviously had not
8 asked Muslims, Serb, and Croat mothers whether they were prepared to
9 sacrifice their children for war. And when you said that good
10 neighbourly relations should be fostered, and then came that sentence
11 that I already mentioned, the beautiful sentence, that a garden is most
12 beautiful when it is full of flowers of different colours, and in the
13 same way, people live the best when they are prepared to live together in
14 harmony and in peace.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tender these two pages, with your
16 leave, Your Honours, and the recording.
17 JUDGE KWON: Do we see a passage relating to garden here?
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It could be on the first page or
19 perhaps it was said in my conversations with political representatives --
20 MR. TIEGER: Wait, wait, wait, wait.
21 JUDGE KWON: No.
22 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, there's no point in warning Dr. Karadzic
23 repeatedly --
24 JUDGE KWON: No.
25 MR. TIEGER: -- but that's another example.
1 JUDGE KWON: During the course of proofing you heard this
2 video-clip, the audio part of this video, didn't you? Mr. Karadzic's
3 speech at that rally?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I participated in the rally just
5 like Mr. Karadzic, and I have at home the full recording.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, on page 1 in the
7 passage that begins with 04.59, the last two sentences, it is not a
8 reference to a garden specifically, but it mentions flourishing --
9 JUDGE KWON: No --
10 MR. TIEGER: This --
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It may not have be a garden or
12 perhaps a meadow --
13 JUDGE KWON: You need to put that to the witness.
14 MR. TIEGER: I mean, it's -- now we're having the form of
15 Dr. Karadzic testifying and asking the witness to confirm his testimony.
16 It's a continuing pattern.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, I apologise. That's not the
18 way it is. We are just looking for this in the transcript. I'm asking
19 the witness to look at the last -- the penultimate paragraph, in fact,
20 where it says:
21 "The Serbian nation in Bosnia-Herzegovina could have organised
22 themselves into some grumpy and dangerous organisation ..."
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The Serbian nation in
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina could have organised themselves into some pugnacious
25 and dangerous organisation, but it did not because Serbian people are
1 loyal to democracy. Whenever there was democracy, the Serbian people
2 flourished. Of course, other nations flourished as well. It will be
3 like that again, if there is democracy and civil peace."
4 These are the words that persuaded me to be a member of the party
5 and one of the leaders of the party, these words precisely. That's how I
6 understood democracy and our abilities to live in one state with other
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Can I ask you to pay attention to the passage that begins with
10 3.26, what am I talking about there?
11 A. It says:
12 "I have to say, the authorities did ask that from other nations
13 as well. We, the Serbs, did not destroy the monument of Ban Jelacic in
14 Zagreb, the authorities did that. We do not have any problem with the
15 monument. They can set it up again if they need it. It was not we,
16 Serbs, that looked with animosity to our Muslim neighbours when they
17 celebrated Bajram. On the contrary, we congratulated them on that
18 holiday. It was not we that prevented their shrines in Hajvatovica and
19 Devojacka Pecina. We will respect their sanctuaries and visit them as
20 the Muslims respect our monastery Ostrog and visit it. That is the way
21 one lives in a community and municipality. There is no reason for anyone
22 to give up anything. Therefore, we seek to restore everything that makes
23 us a nation: Our history, our religion, and our customs. We ask the
24 same for our neighbours, Croats, Muslims, Jews, Romas, and others. We
25 will not love them more if they give up on themselves. Let them live
1 with their full spiritual being. That way they will be more peaceful as
2 well and they will be better neighbours to us."
3 This is required reading for democracy. I, as a teacher of
4 literature, realised that this was a dream one should aspire to.
5 JUDGE KWON: We will admit this -- Mr. Karadzic's speech at the
7 THE REGISTRAR: It receives Exhibit Number D4185, Your Honours.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Were you an official of the Serbian Democratic Party; where and
11 in which period?
12 A. From 28th July 1990 until year 2002, I was all the time on
13 various bodies for the Serbian Democratic Party, beginning as president
14 of the Municipal Board of the party in Srbac, and then three terms of
15 office as the member of the republic organisation of the party.
16 Q. You were on the Main Board three times. How were you elected?
17 A. I was nominated by my party unit in Srbac, and then proposals
18 came from all municipalities. And by secret ballot, because there were a
19 number of candidates on the ticket, I received - let me not say the
20 majority - but a very large number of votes. I don't know why, is it my
21 personal charm or is it because I'm a teacher of literature, but in any
22 case I was elected.
23 Q. Did you take part in charting the policies and the political
24 positions of the party during those three terms of office?
25 A. Yes, one can say that all the time in that period I was in a
1 position where I could follow the work of the party and convey the
2 positions of the party to my own municipal unit. And when the war had
3 already started, when we had no more electricity, when we were left to
4 our own devices, your positions and what I learned from you helped me to
5 be a good leader.
6 Q. What's missing from the transcript is that: When we had no more
7 electricity or communications.
8 Could you speak more slowly, please. While you participated in
9 charting the policies of the Serbian Democratic Party, did the party ever
10 depart from what you heard at that rally and what attracted you initially
11 to the party?
12 A. I already told you about what motivated me to become a member of
13 that party. And then the party platform, as I was studying some
14 materials and looking back at my own diaries and agendas, even in 1990,
15 before the elections, we said that we would be co-operating with all the
16 other parties, on the condition that they don't have the four antis in
17 their programmes. And that is anti-democracy, anti-Semitism,
18 anti-Serbdom --
19 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter missed the fourth one.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That means --
21 JUDGE KWON: Could you repeat from the fourth one, fourth anti.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We said that after the elections we
23 would co-operate and make coalitions with all the parties - Srbac had
24 five of them at the elections - and we conveyed that to the Main Board as
25 our position. We would co-operate with all the parties that don't have
1 four antis - anti-democracy, anti-Semitism, anti-Serbdom, and
2 anti-Yugoslavdom - in their programme. We thought that we would be
3 developing Yugoslavia in the spirit of tolerance, unity, and community.
4 Unfortunately, it didn't turn out that way.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Who in your municipality was the most important personality in
7 power who put into practice the policies of the Serbian Democratic Party?
8 A. When we were cut off, when we lost communications, when we didn't
9 see each other or heard from each other so often anymore, I was at the
10 head of the party, rallying people around me, guiding them to look for a
11 modus vivendi, first as the president of the party and then president of
12 the Municipal Assembly of Srbac for seven years. I was the one who got
13 all the praise and all the criticism and I survived.
14 Q. Thank you. In your work in the authorities in Srbac, did you
15 apply to the greatest possible extent the policies of the Serbian
16 Democratic Party?
17 A. Once we had won the elections, when the Municipal Assembly of
18 Srbac numbered 60 deputies, from five political parties, the Serbian
19 Democratic Party had won 42 seats out of 60; the Socialist Party, eight;
20 the reformists, six; the SPO, two. I think that adds up. Then when we
21 were forming the government, since there was a -- there were some
22 misgivings towards other ideologies, and I was thinking of you when you
23 said that we would do very wisely in Srbac if -- with regard to the party
24 of SDA that had only two seats, it would be very fair, and you even
25 called me to tell me that: Why don't you give an important position to
1 the SDA, a position of authority? I consulted with my associates, with
2 my co-workers, and there were some frictions, but since there will be
3 weddings among the Muslim communities it would be good to put one of them
4 from the SDA, the registrar's office, to give them the position of
5 vice-president even. So that's how Halid Hadziselimovic became my
7 Q. Thank you. You've just told us that the structure of the
8 population was the same before the war and after the war. Where did
9 Muslims in Srbac live in terms of the urban nucleus and were there any
10 Muslim neighbourhoods on the outskirts of Srbac?
11 A. Yes, Kobas along the Sava. There was our own Serbian Kobas,
12 Bosnian Kobas, and there is a Croatian Kobas across the river Sava. In
13 our Serbian Kobas about 80 families lived there from the beginning of
14 times, as it were. On one occasion you passed through there as a young
15 man, you told me about that. You passed through Crna and you wanted to
16 know whether there were such people there. Some 50 families live in
17 Crna. And in the town of Srbac itself, there is a certain number of
18 Muslim families as well. In other words, Muslim families mostly lived in
19 Kobas, in Crna, and in Srbac of course.
20 Q. Thank you. Did you, and to what extent, respect their needs,
21 their rights? Did you take into account all of their demands and
22 requests? I'm talking about the pre-war period.
23 A. The principal of the school in Kobas - and let me tell you that
24 the Kobas school is a branch of the Srbac school - his name was
25 Rasin Zukanovic. He was the principal of that school, for a very good
1 reason. Later on, we changed the name of that school in Kobas and we
2 named it Mehmed Mesa Selimovic instead of a Second World War -- the
3 central school in Srbac in Jovan Jovanovic Zmaj and the branch school in
4 Kobas was named Mehmed Mesa Selimovic, who was a great writer and author.
5 Q. Thank you. In that respect, did you know what my position was
6 and did we talk about that on any occasion?
7 A. On one occasion you told me something that surprised me. You
8 always wondered whether there were pressures and problems and how people
9 there behaved, and then I answered: Well, there are problems everywhere,
10 aren't there? For some people --
11 Q. Please slow down. Your previous answer was totally mis-recorded.
12 Can you please slow down.
13 A. When you question me about the situation in the municipality and
14 whether there were any pressures put to bear on those people, because
15 there was a war going on, then I told you that there are problems
16 everywhere. Of course there are mobsters, scavengers of all sorts who do
17 all sorts of things when the night falls. And then you said: Let alone
18 those scaven gers and mobsters. What about Muslims, Ruthenians, Croats
19 and others in Srbac? And I said: Well, we're trying to protect them.
20 And then at one point you got bored with my answers and you told me:
21 Milos, if you in Srbac are afraid and if you are bothered by the less
22 than 1.000 non-Serbs, then you're not Serbs. You're not even humans.
23 And then you used an expression that really surprised me and I can't
24 repeat it here.
25 Q. Why not? Repeat it.
1 A. And then you said: There are 22.000 inhabitants in Srbac and
2 there is less than 1.000 non-Serbs, and if you are bothered by them, like
3 some are, then you are neither humans nor Serbs, you are mere cunts. I
4 really -- I was taken by surprise with your answer.
5 Q. I myself was really taken by surprise when I realised how many
6 swearwords I used in telephone conversations, but I'm also taken by
7 surprise by today's transcript. I suppose this will be reviewed and
9 THE INTERPRETER: Can Mr. Karadzic repeat the document number.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. And while we are waiting for the document, can you please explain
12 what was the misunderstanding involving the school in Kobas?
13 MR. TIEGER: If Dr. Karadzic is surprised by the transcript, it
14 may in part be because one can hear the interpreter racing to keep up,
15 breathlessly. So it's not only the witness who is apparently speaking
16 too fast, but in trying to keep up with Mr. Karadzic's speed, you can
17 hear the strain in her voice and the pace of her translation.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
19 Do you remember the question, Mr. Milincic?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You have to repeat it.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let me just call up 65 ter 31802 --
22 JUDGE KWON: Before calling up the document, can you not ask a
23 question to the witness?
24 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, I think the document is the
25 intercept of the conversation that they've just been discussing.
1 JUDGE KWON: Oh, very well.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Oh, yes. It was not very clear when you spoke about the school
4 in Kobas. What was the problem with its name?
5 A. I believe that it's name was Esad Midzic, and then names were
6 being changed, other names were given to those schools to deal with the
7 ideological rifts because those ideological divisions were already --
8 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Before we go on, we had -- we need
9 to find out who these interlocutors are first of all.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I thought that you can read it.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Can you identify this document? Who are the interlocutors?
13 A. The two of us, President Karadzic and Milos Milincic.
14 Q. When --
15 JUDGE KWON: The document says "Milos Milosic," no reference to
16 Mr. Milincic.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, this is a mistake.
18 Milos Milincic. This is me. There is no two ways about it.
19 JUDGE KWON: How do you know this is a mistake? You have to
20 establish that it was the witness, Mr. Karadzic, first of all.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. Milincic, could you please tell us where it says "Srbac
23 municipality ... Municipal Assembly chairman Milos Milosic needs you ..."
24 was there a Milos Milosic?
25 A. No, no.
1 Q. Was this mis-recorded by the person who was listening in?
2 A. At that time I was the Municipal Assembly chairman and my name is
3 Milos Milincic, so this is a mistake.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, we have the audio.
5 It's of poor quality. However, the voices may be recognised and
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And the context is rather
9 JUDGE KWON: Now I'm fine. Please continue.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. We can read this. I'd
11 like us to look at the following page.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Could you please tell us what this is all about.
14 A. Yes, the school in Kobas, I believe it bore the name of a war
15 hero from the Second World War, Esad Midzic. We wanted to put that into
16 a different frame, an artistic frame. So there was a discussion as to
17 what name to give to the school in Kobas. There was some extreme
18 demands, one of them was for the school to be named Saint Sava, and the
19 two MPs from the SDA reacted. They were against it. They didn't want
20 the name to be Saint Sava because they were Bosniaks, Muslims, and there
21 are some associations with that name. There were some problems with
22 that. And then another proposal was Ducic and then Njegos. But Njegos
23 was the name already given to another school. There were some comical
24 situations with this regard.
25 And then you either called me or I called you. I called you to
1 consult you, whether I should embark on that at all or whether to put it
2 on hold or whether we should be somewhat faster and harsher in all of
3 that. And then you have -- had some proposals, and then you said: Be
4 smart and look for a compromise. Jovan Ducic, or if that is not doable
5 then you proposed something else that was quite endearing. You said if
6 you had to guard the name of the school with police forces, then there is
7 something wrong with that name obviously.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at the following
9 English page.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Can you remember what my comment was on the name of Saint Sava,
12 whether I said that it was their heritage as well?
13 A. Yes, we tried to discuss to those -- to discuss matters with
14 those two MPs, we wanted to impart on them that Saint Sava was an
15 enlightener, that he was popular even before the last war, that schools
16 had reviews to celebrate Saint Sava, that one shouldn't be narrow-minded
17 because Saint Sava was a do-gooder, he was an educator, and that he was
18 accepted by everybody as an exceptional figure, a figure in the world of
19 culture. But people didn't know that, that's why they reacted
20 spontaneously. I know that one of my own MPs who was a Serb, he said:
21 Leave aside Saint Sava. What book did he author? And I told him what
22 canons Saint Sava authored, but we left it at that.
23 Q. Can I please ask you to tell us, in our conversation a mention
24 was made of some things. What was my recommendation? What direction
25 should you seek to reach a compromise?
1 A. Your proposal was Vuk Karadzic. I said: No, we can't do that
2 because we have already given that name to another school. What about
3 Jovan Ducic, you said? The socialists started looking for his
4 ideological flaws. They said that Ducic was a Chetnik who emigrated to
5 America, so we wanted to deal with that as well. And then you said:
6 Okay, what about Mehmed Mesa Selimovic, maybe that's not bad. You
7 actually left it to me. You told me you seek my advice but it's up to
8 you to deal with that. But I wanted to consult you, I didn't want to
9 rush into things. I received a letter from Ostoja, I have it here with
10 me. People from Ostoja wrote to me because they were dissatisfied with
11 all the changes of the names of schools.
12 Q. Thank you. What about the central school in Srbac, what was its
13 name and what about the branch in Kobas?
14 A. In Srbac it was Jovan Jovanovic Zmaj, who was a very well-known
15 children's author loved by everybody across the board because he wrote
16 warmly about children, without any differences, without any ideology.
17 And as for the school in Kobas was named after another great author,
18 Mehmed Mesa Selimovic. That was the compromise.
19 Q. Thank you. During the war, did you have an occasion to preserve
20 your minorities and how did you do that?
21 A. I have to say this: There was scavengers, as I've already told
22 you, who benefitted from night-time and they wore arms in Lepenica Srbac.
23 The family Malesevic were killed. Three perpetrators were arrested.
24 They were Serbs, one committed suicide and the other two were sentenced
25 to death. However, they were -- their sentence was changed to 20 years'
1 imprisonment. In Razbor, which is another place, the Vejinovic family
2 was attacked. They were looking for money and fuel. They were beaten
3 and mutilated. In a village called Kladanj, a shop was robbed and the
4 Serbs beat up the owner. There was a lot of fear of Muslims. The fact
5 was that we set up a police check-point in Kobas to protect people in
6 Kobas from the -- from the incursions, from those huge national heros who
7 were actually robbers and plunderers, nothing else.
8 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell us who were the victims, what was
9 their ethnicity? For example, the Malesevics, the Vejinovics, who were
10 they and who were the perpetrators of those crimes?
11 A. The Malesevic family was --
12 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Speak slowly and put a pause.
13 Yes, please continue. Repeat your -- the answer, please.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Malesevic family in
15 Gornja Lepenica, they were a married couple who were retired after having
16 worked in Germany all their lives. They were riched [as interpreted].
17 They were killed by three Serbs. They were arrested. They were the
18 perpetrators of that crime. They were sentenced to death. One of them
19 committed suicide. And the other two had their sentences changed to 20
20 years' imprisonment. As for the Vejinovic's in Razbor, we never
21 established -- the police did not have enough proof. Some Serbs were
22 brought in for questioning. In Kladari, which was a Serbian settlement,
23 people don't dare testify, they don't dare say anything. However, some
24 scavengers came there, they were also Serbs. Why am I saying all this?
25 Because I was held at gunpoint. Some soldiers held me at gunpoint, they
1 were Serbs. The situation was really bad and ugly.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Thank you. Can you please help us, were there any instances of
4 emigration of minority members from your municipality? How did Muslim
5 able-bodied men as well as Croatian able-bodied men behave?
6 A. The companies didn't operate. The situation persisted for a long
7 time. There was no communication with the world. There was nothing to
8 live on. We can talk about the emigration of Serbs from Davor, which was
9 on the border. In any case, I was informed about some 60 Bosniak
10 Muslims, not families, but individuals, especially younger individuals,
11 who emigrated to third countries because they didn't have jobs. Their
12 assets, their property, was protected. Serbs did move into some of their
13 houses. They were refugees in Srbac from various territories of the
14 former Bosnia and Herzegovina. When the war was over, the property was
15 returned to their original owners.
16 Q. Thank you. What about a majority of the people, save for those
17 60 individuals, did they remain living in Srbac?
18 A. No, there was no exodus at all. And when you asked me about
19 fighters or the troops, I have to tell you I have some materials in my
20 briefcase. 22 Muslims fought in the Srbac Brigade. They were wounded
21 and they have received decisions, based on which they now enjoy benefits
22 as war veterans and invalids. 22 Muslim fighters were wounded in the
23 Srbac Brigade. Many of them were outside of the Srbac Brigade. There
24 was a burial that I attended when a soldier, a Muslim soldier, had been
25 killed. I made sure that hodza attended and performed religious rites.
1 It's easy to talk about that now, but one had to have guts to do that, to
2 bring a hodza. I had problems because of that, people held it against
4 Q. Thank you. Let's clarify one thing. You didn't mention the word
5 "exodus." You said that there was no moving out.
6 A. No, no, no. There was no exodus. People did not leave.
7 Q. When you said that people were outside of the Srbac Brigade, what
8 did you mean by that? That they were in other units?
9 A. Yes, yes, a majority were in the Srbac Brigade, but they were
10 also in the 16th and other units.
11 Q. Thank you. Can you now tell us whether in your vicinity there
12 were other municipalities where the presidents of the municipalities
13 managed to preserve peace for their minorities? Who were the presidents
14 of those municipalities and what was their relationship with the
15 Main Board?
16 A. If I were to recapitulate after all of this, the top people of
17 the party and of the municipality, again I don't know whether it depended
18 on ability and communication and then the programme of the party itself.
19 These municipalities resisted the war to quite an extent. For example,
20 Srbac, the Srbac municipality, I was president of the municipality and
21 the Main Board. That was considered to be the safest municipality
22 throughout the war. We can discuss that a bit more later on. Then there
23 was Gradiska, that municipality, where the percentage of Bosniaks,
24 Muslims, was greater than in Srbac. There were certain municipalities
25 there, but somehow the balance was preserved. Prnjavor, that
1 municipality too. They used to call Prnjavor a small-scale Yugoslavia
2 because there were several ethnic communities. Now, if I were to
3 recapitulate, perhaps this is a clash of interests from this point of
4 view, but then there was this concentration of power to keep it as simple
5 as possible and so on and so forth.
6 Q. Who were the presidents of municipalities? You mentioned
7 Gradiska, Prnjavor, Laktasi, Mrkonjic Grad --
8 JUDGE KWON: Did he say Laktasi?
9 MR. TIEGER: No --
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no, I'm just adding now these
11 municipalities and I want to ask who the presidents of those
12 municipalities were.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Candidates of the Serb Democratic
14 Party, Nebojsa Ivastanin, president of the SDS in Gradiska; Stevan Jovic,
15 also a member of the SDS, president of the SDS in Laktasi, that's where
16 Premier Dodik is from, or rather, he's now the president of the
17 Republika Srpska; in Mrkonjic, Dr. Luka Cudic, I think that was his name;
18 in Prnjavor, the candidate of the SDS Nemanja Vasic. And let me not
19 enumerate all of it. Trebinje --
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Thank you, thank you. What was the position of these presidents
22 in relation to the Main Board?
23 A. We met often, we communicated. If somebody did not attend a
24 Main Board meeting for any reason, then those who did go would convey
25 what happened there.
1 Q. Were they members of the Main Board?
2 A. Nebojsa, president of Gradiska, was; Nemanja Vasic was;
3 Stevan Jovic, I think he wasn't a member of the Main Board; Luka Cudic in
4 Mrkonjic, he was; Bozidar Vucurevic in Trebinje, he was. Now I cannot
5 remember anymore. I think that these people who took it upon themselves
6 to indeed be the most responsible persons and that's where there was the
7 least number of problems.
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Milincic.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I have no further
10 questions at this point. Could this intercept please be admitted all
11 together with the audio recording.
12 JUDGE KWON: Any objection, Mr. Tieger?
13 MR. TIEGER: No, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE KWON: Do we need to admit the audio?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We don't have to, but if somebody's
17 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We'll receive this intercept.
18 THE REGISTRAR: It receives Exhibit Number D4186, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
20 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger:
22 Q. Mr. Milincic, this is not the first time that you've testified
23 before this Tribunal. You also testified in the Krajisnik case as a
24 Defence witness in November of 2005; correct?
25 A. That's right, yes.
1 Q. And you also gave a statement to the Karadzic Defence in
2 connection with this particular case, which I imagine happened sometime
3 this year; is that right?
4 A. Yes, sometime in July or August, I think it was August.
5 Q. Okay. Now, Dr. Karadzic asked you at page 46 whether the party
6 had departed from what was said at the rally in September of 1990, that
7 we looked at during your examination-in-chief and reviewed the
8 transcript. Now, those statements at the time from Dr. Karadzic which
9 you indicated the party did not depart from would then have included --
10 MR. TIEGER: And I guess we need to call up D4185, the transcript
11 of that rally and Dr. Karadzic's speech.
12 Q. It would have included, for example, in the portion that appears
13 under 4.59, at approximately the fourth sentence there, the statement:
14 "You would like to live in peace with others but the others must
15 have the same measure of this desire in order to live together. Serbs,
16 you will treat others strictly in the way the others treat you, no more,
17 no less ..."
18 So that was one of the statements made by Dr. Karadzic at the
19 time; correct?
20 A. Mm-hm.
21 Q. And at 6.55, at the end of that portion, he also stated:
22 "We will not take anything what belongs to others and we will not
23 leave anything that belongs to us ..."
24 And that was part of what Dr. Karadzic stated in September of
25 1990 that you indicated the party didn't later depart from; right?
1 THE ACCUSED: Next page in Serbian, please.
2 MR. TIEGER:
3 Q. I just wanted you to confirm that. Or are you able to find that?
4 It should be just at the end of that portion, it's a very small portion.
5 A. Are you referring to 11.15:
6 "But our enemies are not only those who hate Serbs ..."
7 Is that what you had in mind?
8 Q. No, I said at the end of 6.55:
9 "We will not take anything what belongs to others and we will not
10 leave anything that belongs to us ..."
11 So that's correct also; right?
12 A. Yes, yes, I see that.
13 Q. And although it's not included in this portion of the speech that
14 was transcribed by the Defence, you yourself alluded to a reference to
15 Marko Kraljevic and the image of him carrying the spear the other way
16 around until such time as he needed it.
17 MR. TIEGER: And if we could upload 65 ter 40635A, have a
18 transcript of what I believe to be that portion.
19 Q. That appears -- that appears at -- another upload that was
20 double-checked if I'm not mistaken, essentially the same translation but
21 let's make sure.
22 In any event, the B/C/S is the same as you see here. I'm going
23 to read the English portion of the translation that we received. It is
24 indeed a reference to the Marko Kraljevic image that you quoted. It
25 appears at 1.17.22 through 1.17.48 of the rally. And it says basically:
1 We shall not be harsh also on account of that old poem about
2 Marko Kraljevic when he carried the spear upside down and the fairy warns
3 him not to carry it upside down or that way and Marko replies: I shall
4 easily bring about the spear should trouble beset me. That's a quote
5 from Marko.
6 And then Dr. Karadzic continues: We shall be benign and
7 democratic right up to the moment until democracy is no longer able to
8 function. And then when someone -- at the moment when someone attacks
9 us, we shall bring about the spear.
10 So that's another reflection, according to you, as I understand
11 it, in the -- of what was said or conveyed by Dr. Karadzic at the rally
12 and from which the party did not depart when the time came?
13 A. I have to tell you that the people, especially the Serb people,
14 bearing in mind their legacy, the fear that was instilled in them decades
15 before that --
16 Q. Mr. Milincic --
17 A. -- we embarked upon the development of democracy and -- yes?
18 Q. Excuse me, sir. I have a limited period of time. I think you
19 answered Dr. Karadzic's questions. I ask you to answer mine. And my
20 question was whether or not this is indeed what Dr. Karadzic said at the
21 rally and which you indicated were matters that the party did not later
22 depart from. Is that correct or not?
23 A. We did not depart from democracy. If we are attacked, then we
24 have to defend ourselves. That is the applause that was received from
25 everyone at the rally. If we were attacked, and we weren't expected to
1 be attacked.
2 JUDGE KWON: You asked a compound question.
3 Do you confirm Mr. Karadzic said that at the time, at that rally?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was said and everyone
5 understands that properly. I don't see what it is that is problematic
7 MR. TIEGER: So I tender that, Mr. President, to be added to the
8 previous exhibit.
9 JUDGE KWON: I'm not sure how we can add that video --
10 MR. TIEGER: That's true. Okay. Well, let's just have it as a
11 supplemental exhibit and we can link it -- I understand the Registrar --
12 JUDGE KWON: Is it possible to add this part, technically? I'm
13 just asking.
14 MR. ROBINSON: Do you want it added to the video as well as the
16 JUDGE KWON: Yeah, if we are to add it, it should be added that
17 way. We'll admit it separately.
18 MR. ROBINSON: I think that would be easier.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes. As a Prosecution exhibit.
20 THE REGISTRAR: It receives Exhibit P6563, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE KWON: I hope there's some cross-reference between these
22 two -- each other --
23 MR. TIEGER: In other contexts I'm told the Registrar can do
25 Mr. President, I'm about to move on to another matter. I don't
1 think we could get too deeply into it before we would break, so perhaps
2 it's best to adjourn at this point.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll have a break for 45 minutes and resume
4 at quarter past 1.00.
5 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.28 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 1.18 p.m.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue.
8 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Q. Mr. Milincic, at about page 54 of today's transcript you
10 mentioned some crimes in Srbac and alluded to at least one prosecution.
11 The last time you were here and testified in the Krajisnik case, you also
12 raised the issue of crimes and prosecutions. And in particular, you
13 brought to the Court's attention the killing of Mr. Hadziselimovic, who
14 you mentioned today, in order to show the Court that a prominent Muslim
15 had been murdered and the authorities responded by prosecuting and
16 imprisoning the perpetrator. Correct? That's what happened the last
17 time you were here.
18 A. Hadziselimovic was my vice-president, but at the time when this
19 incident occurred in this restaurant with one or more protagonists, he
20 was -- he had deregistered --
21 Q. Sorry, Mr. Milincic --
22 A. -- because he had an apartment --
23 Q. -- I'm not asking for you to recap the entirety of the
24 Hadziselimovic murder. I'm asking you whether or not it's true - and I
25 can show you and will show you if necessary the transcript of your
1 testimony in the Krajisnik case - that you came to the Court and you
2 asserted that Mr. Hadziselimovic had been murdered by Mr. Stankovic and
3 that Mr. Stankovic had been prosecuted for that murder?
4 A. It is correct that that happened. Mr. Stankovic was convicted
5 because of some other crimes or misdemeanours in addition to this murder,
6 but this killing of Hadziselimovic was a fight. I checked that later on
7 after my testimony here. It happened in a brawl. I did not have
8 information, the right kind of information then. The fact is that
9 Hadziselimovic as he was passing by this tavern, he reacted to a song,
10 and then there was this brawl and he died in hospital in Banja Luka five
11 or six days later. Hadziselimovic, yes.
12 Q. Let's try to get the chronology of your information and the
13 provision of the type of information that you wanted to convey to the
14 Court correct.
15 MR. TIEGER: So if we could turn to 65 ter 25768, page -- well,
16 let's get that first and then I can turn you -- direct you to the page.
17 Too many numbers. Okay. And turn, please, to page 18450.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Give me this in my language.
19 MR. TIEGER:
20 Q. I'll have to read it to you and it will be translated, sir, but I
21 hope that your recollection of the event will be refreshed by the
22 portions that are read back to you verbatim.
23 MR. TIEGER: 18450, please.
24 Q. Here I was recapping for you what you had stated in your
25 examination-in-chief to the Court, and I stated to you that:
1 "... what you wanted to show the Court was that in that instance
2 in particular, a prominent and well-regarded Muslim had been murdered and
3 the Serbian authorities had responded by prosecuting and imprisoning the
4 perpetrator for that; correct?"
5 And your answer was:
7 So that's the first thing, Mr. Milincic. It's true that you
8 brought the Court's attention to this event in order to show how rigorous
9 the reaction by the Serbian authorities was; right?
10 A. That's how you interpret it.
11 Q. No, Mr. Milincic --
12 A. At that point --
13 Q. Excuse me, sir. I just read -- do you dispute what you said
14 here? The question was: You wanted to show the Court that in that
15 instance a prominent and well-regarded Muslim had been murdered and the
16 Serbian authorities responded by prosecuting and imprisoning the
17 perpetrator for that; correct? Your answer was "yes" in 2005. Do you
18 deny that?
19 A. I'm not denying that that's what I said, but when I checked later
20 it wasn't a murder, it was a brawl in a tavern and the man died in
21 hospital five or six days later. I as president of the municipality did
22 not have to know about all of these details, just like I don't know all
23 the details concerning the killing of the Malesevic family.
24 Q. I see. So your explanation to the Court on this occasion is that
25 when Mr. Hadziselimovic, a prominent and well-regarded Muslim in your
1 community who was your deputy was killed and a man was arrested for his
2 murder and you say imprisoned and prosecuted, now you say that was simply
3 a brawl; is that it? So you didn't know about that at the time. You
4 only found out about what happened to Mr. Hadziselimovic long afterwards.
5 That's your explanation?
6 A. My explanation was that that happened, that there was a brawl,
7 that a man died in hospital, that the military authorities arrested the
8 mentioned gentleman, they interrogated him and released him after a
9 while, and then in the meantime he did other things. That is the truth
10 and that is undeniable. Perhaps I rushed on and said that he was
11 sentenced immediately. No. He was interviewed, released, allowed to go
12 home, and then in the meantime he committed some other crimes and was
13 then convicted. That is the full truth.
14 Q. The fact of the matter is that the Trial Chamber in the Krajisnik
15 case looked at the documents you brought to establish your claim that
16 Mr. Stankovic had been prosecuted and imprisoned for the Hadziselimovic
17 murder and asked you -- well, let me read this to you.
18 "Q. And with respect to the documents you brought with you" --
19 this is the bottom of page 18450 going on to 18451.
20 "Q. With respect to the documents you brought with you
21 concerning the murder of Mr. Hadziselimovic, the Court in particular
22 asked you how it could know which murder these documents referred to,
23 because it didn't seem clear on its face, and you assured the Court that
24 it referred to the murder of Mr. Hadziselimovic because you knew how
25 important it was to be accurate here and bring accurate information to
1 the Court; is that right?"
2 And your answer was:
3 "A. Yes."
4 That's what you said in 2005; correct?
5 A. I have to intervene. When you drew my attention to this, the
6 sequence of events, what happened to Stankovic or Hadziselimovic, then I
7 saw that I was not fully aware of all the details. And then I said
8 you're right. Check that. That's what I said -- oh, then you're right.
9 It was an oversight on my part with regard to some things, I mean in
10 terms of time an oversight.
11 Now it is a fact that this man was sentenced to six years in
12 prison for what he did, but after the brawl with Hadziselimovic, the
13 military authorities, the court, released him. There was a war going on
14 and they had no place to keep all these people in detention. And then
15 when he did other things, then he was arrested, prosecuted, and convicted
16 to six years in prison. And that is the full truth and that can be
17 checked. I as president of the municipality, I wanted to say that no one
18 was coddled, if you will. Serbs or Muslims, or anybody. And if bad
19 things happen on one side, of course they would happen on the other side
21 MR. TIEGER: And I tender 18450 and 51, Mr. President.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll receive it.
23 THE REGISTRAR: It receives Exhibit Number P6564, Your Honours.
24 MR. TIEGER:
25 Q. Mr. Milincic, you've alluded a couple of times to what happened
1 after that so let me quickly recap the Stankovic affair. First of all,
2 in May of 1992 -- and now if we could turn to 18465, track what you
3 confirmed in 2005. All right. Looking back -- looking down to the
4 bottom third of the page:
5 In May of 1992, Mr. Stankovic murdered Mr. Hadziselimovic. In
6 August of 1992, he murdered Hasima Zukanovic, a woman, and Reuf Alagic,
7 and shot and seriously injured Hamza Bojadzic and Sabra Alagic,
8 Mr. Alagic's mother. And then having been released again, in
9 September of 1994, he shot two Serb children and then was finally, at
10 that point, put in prison until approximately 2002.
11 That's all correct; right? And you confirmed on the top of the
12 next page:
13 "It is correct what you have just said."
14 That was your testimony in 2005; right?
15 JUDGE KWON: Why don't you read out the full sentence.
16 MR. TIEGER: Sure.
17 JUDGE KWON: His answer --
18 MR. TIEGER:
19 Q. The question was:
20 "That's all correct; right?"
21 Your answer was:
22 "Now you have just reminded me of the Serbian children. I have
23 completely forgotten about them, unfortunately. It is correct what you
24 have just said. That detail, unfortunately, has escaped me."
25 That was your testimony in 2005; right? About the chain of
1 events with respect to Mr. Stankovic?
2 THE ACCUSED: We don't see the proper --
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know where the
4 misunderstanding is. I only assisted you to get the right chronology,
5 which I initially overlooked. Now, why he was convicted -- sentenced to
6 six years, why he had been released early, I don't know. It was up to
7 the military authorities. I was not hiding anything and I'm not hiding
8 anything now. I'm sorry for everybody who fell victim, for the Muslims
9 and for the Malesevics. Those are crazy things in war. You can't
10 control them.
11 MR. TIEGER: I tender those two pages, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll add them.
13 MR. TIEGER:
14 Q. You also responded to some questions today from Mr. Karadzic
15 about other municipalities and other presidents of municipalities and so
16 on. And I'll get to that in a moment, but I note that the -- I asked you
17 earlier about both your testimony and your statement. And I note, for
18 example, that the subject of the rally and the speech that you discussed
19 with Dr. Karadzic earlier was covered in the statement you provided to
20 the Karadzic Defence; correct? You addressed that topic in your
21 statement; right?
22 A. Yes, what I wrote and what I stated. We're talking now. Where
23 is the problem?
24 MR. TIEGER: Can we call up 1D09746, please.
25 Q. Can I ask you to just take a quick look at this and you can look
1 through as many of the pages as you wish and confirm that this is the
2 statement you gave the Karadzic Defence in approximately July of this
4 A. What am I supposed to do, confirm this?
5 Q. No, just confirm whether or not that is the statement that you
6 gave the Karadzic Defence. I'll ask you about -- I may or may not ask
7 you about some of the details.
8 A. The statement is authentic and I stand by it.
9 Q. Now, in -- when this statement was assembled, how was that done?
10 Did the Karadzic -- the representative or representatives of the Karadzic
11 Defence team suggest to you the issues that should be covered?
12 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President, just as a -- I don't
13 have an objection, but I want to note that if this question is answered,
14 we would be tendering the statement. We think the statement would be
15 relevant at this point.
16 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger.
17 MR. TIEGER: Well, I think the Court will have to wait and see
18 whether the contents of the statement are or are not relevant for
19 purposes of admission. But the mere fact that I --
20 JUDGE KWON: Given that he testified viva voce, why don't you put
21 your question directly and then see how it is reflected in the statement.
22 And then you can ask that question.
23 MR. TIEGER: I would appreciate the opportunity to ask a couple
24 of preliminary questions, Mr. President, though.
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
1 MR. TIEGER: Because, as you will see, the question I ultimately
2 ask may implicate the understanding of how that was prepared.
3 Q. So just a couple of questions --
4 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. This is the pause you should put.
5 Yes, please go on.
6 MR. TIEGER:
7 Q. Are these -- in essence, are these all your words or did the
8 Karadzic Defence team suggest to you what you should say in the
10 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President, I do object now because
11 if you -- if we're talking about the substance of the statement and how
12 it was taken as opposed to something that is inconsistent with his
13 testimony, then I think that the statement itself would have to be
14 admitted. Since you've denied the admission of the statement under
15 92 ter, now I think that the Prosecution is required -- is giving grounds
16 for the statement to be admitted. It would be unfair to discuss how the
17 statement was prepared without admitting its entire contents. So that's
18 my point.
19 MR. TIEGER: Those are total apples and oranges, Mr. President.
20 And I will turn to a specific portion of the statement that will make
21 these questions relevant, I can assure you. I don't intend to ask these
22 totally in the abstract --
23 JUDGE KWON: Well --
24 MR. TIEGER: -- but the mere fact --
25 JUDGE KWON: Just -- just a second.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE KWON: Please continue.
3 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.
4 JUDGE KWON: And we'll consider whether it's necessary to admit
5 this document -- statement later on.
6 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.
7 Q. Mr. Milincic, do you recall the question I asked before the
8 intervention, that was: Are these all your words or did the Karadzic
9 Defence team suggest to you what you should say in the statement?
10 A. I'm a man in good health who raised generations, interpreted
11 visionary, artistic messages, and I don't need dictation. I spoke, and
12 as I -- I said as a president of the municipality I did this, this, this,
13 and that, item by item, which I described here. Whether it's a
14 coincidence that the representative of the Defence wanted me to talk
15 about certain things and I already knew what I needed to say, how the
16 party was established, why the war started, what Karadzic told us, what
17 he suggested to the municipalities because municipalities were states on
18 a small scale. And in all my contacts and situations, I couldn't wait
19 for Karadzic, I had to deal with problems myself. So this question,
20 whether something was suggested to me, is superfluous.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please be asked to slow down.
22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milincic, you spoke a bit too fast. Please
23 repeat from your -- where -- from where you said something suggested was
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. The statement that I
1 gave, the statements I gave, are mine and authentic. A man with my world
2 views and my experience, an educator, was certainly able to answer a
3 certain number of questions that are relevant to Srbac and further
4 afield, the whole context and Karadzic's role. So it was a coincidence
5 that I anticipated the questions. I knew what I was going to say about
6 the situation in the municipality, about the relationship in the
7 authorities in the municipality, and dealing with everyday issues when
8 you don't have a state you have a war going on, you have no telephone
9 communication with the authorities further up. Municipalities --
10 MR. TIEGER:
11 Q. Mr. Milincic --
12 A. -- were states on a small scale.
13 Q. -- you've answered the question.
14 MR. TIEGER: Can I turn to paragraph 22, please.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In the transcript, page 72, line 5,
16 I understand why the interpreter made the mistake, the words are very
17 similar, sound very similar. The witness didn't say: "I'm a man in good
18 health." He said: "I'm a mature person."
19 MR. TIEGER:
20 Q. You see paragraph 22 of your statement, last paragraph:
21 "As president of the Srbac Municipal Assembly and member of the
22 SDS Main Board, and based on direct contacts ... I can categorically
23 state ..." et cetera.
24 You see that one?
25 A. Mm-hmm.
1 Q. Great.
2 MR. TIEGER: Can we have 65 ter --
3 Q. Look at it quickly, please, because I'm going to turn to another
5 MR. TIEGER: Can we have 65 ter 25776, please.
6 Q. Now, here we see that same paragraph, paragraph 22 of your
7 statement, and we also see paragraph 19 of the statement of
8 Witness Dragomir Ljubojevic, whose evidence was admitted here earlier.
9 He wasn't president of the Srbac Municipal Assembly, he was president of
10 the Bijeljina Municipal Assembly. And look at the portion, Mr. Milincic,
11 which begins:
12 "A na osnovu ..."
13 Now, I can read it out so you can follow, but it is verbatim, one
14 word after another, what is provided in your statement.
15 MR. ROBINSON: I object, Mr. President. First of all, it's -- at
16 least -- unless the translation is different than --
17 MR. TIEGER: Look at the Serbian, please.
18 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, I'm looking at the Serbian, yes. I don't see
19 it being verbatim. But, Mr. President --
20 MR. TIEGER: Then I'll read it out and the witness can follow.
21 MR. ROBINSON: Okay. Can I finish my intervention, Mr. Tieger?
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
23 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, the only way that this
24 cross-examination could be relevant is if the statement is admitted
25 because this is now an issue of whether or not what he said in the
1 statement is his own words. And you have already said that the statement
2 was not part of the testimony, so I'm at this time moving that the
3 statement be admitted. Then Mr. Tieger can ask all the questions he
4 would like about it.
5 MR. TIEGER: Mr. President.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
7 MR. TIEGER: Thank you. That's -- what is relevant -- the
8 statement in its entirety is not relevant for its substance. What is
9 relevant is whether or not answers were suggested to this witness. So
10 this paragraph is certainly relevant, and the issue of whether or not any
11 information was provided to him, funneled to him, is relevant for
12 purposes of assessing his testimony, but that certainly doesn't bootstrap
13 the remainder of the statement into evidence. Quite the contrary. It
14 casts the rest of it into doubt as well. But this paragraph is relevant;
15 the rest of the statement is not for that purpose.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE BAIRD: Mr. Tieger, can we have some elaboration on the
18 last point you made to the Chamber, as respects why the Chamber should
19 not receive the entirety of the statement?
20 MR. TIEGER: Well, yes, Mr. President. I have isolated this
21 particular portion to demonstrate the proposition that this witness
22 appears to have been provided either the specific information or the way
23 in which he should formulate -- by the way, perhaps the witness should
24 take off his headphones for this or leave the courtroom during this
25 discussion. Because I have more questions for him on this issue.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
2 If Mr. Milincic, if you could excuse yourself for a moment.
3 [The witness stands down]
4 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 And -- and --
6 JUDGE KWON: Oh, yes.
7 MR. TIEGER: -- I was still responding to Judge Baird's --
8 JUDGE BAIRD: So sorry, I thought you were waiting for the
10 MR. TIEGER: Oh, no. Thank you.
11 JUDGE BAIRD: Okay.
12 MR. TIEGER: And I want to point out I'm addressing this as a
13 matter of principle. I'm not frightened of what the -- of the statement
14 itself. But the point is, I drew the Court's attention to this paragraph
15 because it demonstrates some kind of inescapable conclusion, and that is
16 that either the information itself or the formulation of that information
17 was clearly provided to this witness, unless we are to believe in the
18 most extraordinary coincidence of all time.
19 Now, that makes this paragraph relevant, as the -- as
20 paragraph 19 in the Ljubojevic statement is relevant. But how that bears
21 on the remainder of the statement, which may or may not have reflected
22 portions of the witness's independent knowledge, is well beyond me. The
23 fact is that this paragraph, if anything, casts further doubt on the
24 reliability of that statement, a statement which the Court has already
25 ruled is in most respects irrelevant to the case itself.
1 So it's difficult for me to see how you take a statement which
2 the Court has already determined to be largely irrelevant and then
3 somehow resurrect it into something relevant by virtue of the fact that
4 one portion of it is shown to be highly suspect. If anything, it is a
5 greater reason for not --
6 JUDGE KWON: When -- I don't take -- I don't think when
7 Mr. Robinson suggested admission of the document -- statement in its
8 entirety, it is not for the content of the statement, whether -- to make
9 an observation whether the answers were fair to the witness, the way in
10 which the statements were formulated.
11 MR. TIEGER: But, Your Honour -- Mr. President, I'm not concerned
12 with the way paragraph 1, 2, or 3 was formulated. I haven't addressed
13 that issue, and I haven't addressed it in part because --
14 JUDGE KWON: You said why you isolated this paragraph, but the
15 way in which formulated has bearing on the other -- his testimony as a
17 MR. TIEGER: If any single -- no, I don't agree with that. If
18 any single part of his statement has been tainted, then it calls into
19 question the entirety of what he's saying now and that is a matter of
20 weight. But it can't be -- the taint can't be resurrected by the fact
21 that other portions were not provided to the witness. Certainly it can
22 damage the Court's view of it, as I believe it would in this case; but
23 the fact that it doesn't infect the entirety item by item of a statement
24 that has not been admitted is irrelevant. If you now know that this
25 witness was provided information in any respect, as I believe you do from
1 this --
2 JUDGE KWON: Just a second --
3 MR. TIEGER: -- juxtaposition --
4 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry to interrupt you. Let me understand you
5 correctly. Say this portion is -- this isolated portion is what? Let me
6 say it's fed by the Defence team to the witness.
7 MR. TIEGER: Okay.
8 JUDGE KWON: And then what's the effect of that?
9 MR. TIEGER: Then the Court, when the Court -- well, I leave it
10 to the Court to decide the effect. I know what the effect is for me --
11 JUDGE KWON: [Overlapping speakers] -- that we should consider
12 this part is not in evidence. Yes.
13 MR. TIEGER: Right. But it shows the nature of the process by
14 which -- that brought this witness to the Court and the provision of
15 information to the witness in some form, and therefore should certainly
16 bear on the Court's assessment of his credibility as he testifies,
17 particularly in light of other information brought to light during the
18 course of cross-examination. So you certainly can't ignore it, I
19 wouldn't think. I certainly wouldn't presume to tell the Court what
20 effect it would -- it will choose ultimately to give its now awareness of
21 what happened with respect to this witness. But it's certainly a factor
22 that, in my submission, should not be ignored and that I think the --
23 indeed, the Prosecution had a responsibility to bring to your attention.
24 JUDGE BAIRD: Mr. Tieger, if the paragraph, as you say, casts
25 doubt on the reliability of the statement, shouldn't that be a fortiori
1 the case why the statement shouldn't be received?
2 MR. TIEGER: Of course, if there had been some question about
3 receipt of the statement, then I might -- for example, if the Court
4 hadn't intervened earlier and said: Look, most of this statement is
5 irrelevant, let's lead this witness's evidence live, if it had been a
6 92 ter submission, then I might well be arguing that the nature of this
7 paragraph infuses the reliability of the statement to such an extent that
8 it can't be received 92 ter. In this case, I'm only bringing it to the
9 Court's attention in the context of the witness's viva voce testimony so
10 that the Court has a better -- is in a better position to assess the
11 reliability of what he testifies to viva voce by virtue of his previous
12 interactions with the Karadzic Defence team.
13 JUDGE BAIRD: Mr. Robinson, would you like a rejoinder in this?
14 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, thank you very much, Judge Baird. Well, the
15 Prosecution has created a straw man here by introducing this statement
16 which is not previously admitted and then attempting to tear it down in
17 part by showing that one paragraph may have been similar to what another
18 witness has said. But in order for you to evaluate that now and having
19 placed the reliability of this process including the taking of the
20 statement in question, then the whole statement is relevant and becomes
21 admissible. And that's my point.
22 MR. TIEGER: Excuse me, Your Honour, I'll say it again. I'm not
23 saying that the entirety of the statement was fed to this witness, the
24 entirety of this largely irrelevant statement. What I'm saying is, we
25 can see from paragraph 22 of his statement and paragraph 19 of a previous
1 statement, the unmistakable conclusion that he was fed this language.
2 Now, that bears on his credibility, particularly when he said that
3 this -- that he provided his own words. So he's testifying to this Court
4 now that these are all his own words. Now you know that he characterises
5 something like this as his own words. You have useful information with
6 which to assess his credibility, but it has nothing to do with the rest
7 of the statement.
8 If Mr. Robinson wants to argue that: We didn't provide him -- we
9 didn't tell him, for example, in paragraph 1 of his statement what his
10 name was and what his educational background was, I fully accept that.
11 That's not the point. The point is that paragraph 22 was provided to
12 this witness in some form and that directly impeaches the witness when he
13 told this Court that this reflected his own words, and it also in a
14 broader way affects or is useful to the Court in assessing his overall
15 credibility and reliability when he testifies viva voce.
16 JUDGE KWON: Just one question for you, Mr. Robinson.
17 Separate from the issue of credibility or reliability of this
18 witness, does this issue not have a bearing upon the issue -- or bearing
19 upon the overall reliability of the statement, 92 ter statement, from the
21 MR. ROBINSON: Absolutely, yes. As I understand it, Mr. Tieger
22 is calling into question the -- whether the witness's words in this
23 statement is his own. So the reliability of the statement is definitely
24 in question.
25 [Trial Chamber confers]
1 THE ACCUSED: May I just -- just draw your attention to --
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue.
3 THE ACCUSED: Witness also mentioned that there could have been
4 coincidences between what -- before he was shown these two paragraphs.
5 JUDGE KWON: We heard that. Thank you.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE KWON: We'll allow you to continue, Mr. Tieger. And as for
8 the admission of the statement in its entirety, we'll deal with it
9 after -- during the course of re-examination when Mr. Karadzic really
10 tenders it.
11 Shall we bring in the witness back.
12 [The witness takes the stand]
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue, Mr. Tieger.
14 MR. TIEGER:
15 Q. Mr. Milincic, you still have this exhibit in front of you. You
16 are not seriously claiming, are you, that this peon of praise to
17 Dr. Karadzic by both you and Mr. Ljubojevic were arrived at independently
18 by each of you, are you?
19 A. Recently I have read a statement by a writer who said, a
20 modern-day author, who wrote about somebody who was alive ten centuries
21 ago. And he said: I caught him copying from me. The essence of my
22 statement and the person who drafted it is identical. I believe that
23 many witnesses with whom people talk, if you were to offer them that
24 definition, they would say: This is him with more or less nuances.
25 I have just looked at my statement now. My statement has been
1 translated into the Cyrillic letter. It's just a style that is
2 different; the essence is the same. The author looked at the contents of
3 my statement and Ljubojevic's statement, provided this definition. But
4 the essence is that one and the other must be the same. You think that
5 we sing as a choir; however, the popular and common belief is that this
6 is what Radovan Karadzic was. This is the essence. He was a
7 law-obedient citizen. He was often criticised for being too democratic,
8 that he talks too much instead of acting quickly. It would have been
9 good if on all sides there were people who were able to count to 10 and
10 then react. I'm more and more convinced that this definition is actually
11 the essence of the person who was the former president of the republic.
12 This is why I'm here. I'm not here to cheer and root for
13 Radovan Karadzic.
14 Now, if we looked at the words and if we discussed the theory of
15 literature, we shouldn't do that. In legal terms, the author of this
16 text, when he was listening to me and Ljubojevic, he provided his own
17 wording. I just looked at my statement now and I can tell you that the
18 essence is that he was a law-abiding person, that he tried to listen to
19 everybody, that he suffered criticism from Serbian politicians for being
20 too hesitant, for procrastinating, for not being too radical and
21 resolute. And maybe it was for the better. I believe that one of his
22 counterparts was similar to him, things would have gone the right way and
23 the better way.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, can Mr. Tieger be
25 asked to display the entire paragraph 22 and then you will see that it is
1 not a verbatim copy.
2 MR. TIEGER:
3 Q. This is the portion that is -- but, by the way, excuse me, let me
4 ask you a question. Were you looking at your statement outside to
5 confirm -- to check what you had said?
6 A. Yes, yes. I wanted to see whether somebody was disloyal to my
7 words. The essence of my statement for what I'm here for is that
8 Radovan Karadzic was a humanist and a legalist. Very often people would
9 say to him: Leave alone democracy, the parliamentary democracy, people
10 are dying here. And he would respond: Let's do it slowly, and then he
11 would quote from Njegos, who was a very clever man, who said: All of you
12 people, you should be smart. So this is the essence of my state -- in
13 style there are some nuances, but the essence of the statement is exactly
14 what I said.
15 Q. All right.
16 MR. TIEGER: I tender this exhibit, Mr. President.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm still asking for the entire
18 paragraph 22 to be displayed.
19 JUDGE KWON: We saw that entire paragraph 22 a minute ago. But
20 he just -- this is an excerpt from the paragraph 22, I take it?
21 MR. TIEGER: That's correct.
22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger showed paragraph 22 to the witness and
23 then tender -- showed this comparative chart, this document, to the
24 witness. If necessary, you can show that entire paragraph 22 -- or
25 paragraph 22 in its entirety to the witness later on.
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll admit this.
3 THE REGISTRAR: It receives Exhibit Number P6565, Your Honours.
4 MR. TIEGER:
5 Q. Now, Mr. Milincic, earlier today you were asked about other
6 municipalities and other presidents of municipalities who allegedly
7 preserved peace. During the course of your testimony in the Krajisnik
8 case, you were also asked about and testified about what happened in
9 other municipalities in the Krajina as well. And that -- portions of
10 that testimony are reflected, for example, at page 18439 of your
11 Krajisnik testimony. And that actually began on a previous page where
12 you were asked questions about what you were hearing was happening to
13 Muslims and Croats in the Krajina municipalities in the spring and summer
14 of 1992. At page 18439 the Presiding Judge intervened and said:
15 "Mr. Milincic, no one asked you to tell us on matters you were
16 responsible for. The question simply was: What did you learn at that
17 time from others as to what happened in the Krajina to Croats and
19 And you went on to say:
20 "You have to know that those things were not in the open, they
21 were not public, that if some things had been happening as you imply they
22 were, this was not announced, this was not made public, it was not made
23 known in Srbac. I could listen to the media, which was already biased,
24 and I could listen to the stories, but I was not in the centre of all
25 these developments. Some information reached me with a delay of six
1 months about some crime, killing, violence, people being fired from work,
2 but it happened on all the three sides. It depended on the municipality.
3 It is only normal that I knew more about the Serbs and what was happening
4 to them, but I also could not avoid hearing what was happening to the
5 Muslims and Croats."
6 And you go on to say especially because you later established
7 contact with Bishop Komarica.
8 Now, first of all, do you confirm, Mr. Milincic, that this is
9 what you said at least initially in response to the question about what
10 you knew at the time about what was happening to Muslims and Croats in
11 the Krajina?
12 A. I've already said that there were rumours about thousands upon
13 thousands who were raped. I even quoted Bismarck who said that people
14 lied the most during a war, during a hunt, and during elections. And all
15 of those things were happening at the time. I was most concerned with my
16 municipality. As for rumours which I heard, I can't tell you even now
17 how credible those rumours were, whether things were covered up or not
18 known. I don't know. But I'm sure that there were exaggerations or
19 there were understatements. It was only normal in the state of war. I
20 don't know why do you find this portion of my testimony problematic. I
21 have to remind you of the great author Tolstoy who said that --
22 Q. No, Mr. Milincic, please, you don't have to --
23 A. -- all the happy families are pretty much like --
24 Q. Mr. Milincic, yeah, I know, you said that in your Krajisnik
25 testimony as well. Let's focus on this for a moment. Okay? So first
1 you said you heard some things but you didn't -- okay.
2 I'm going to tender that portion and move on to what we later
3 discussed in your Krajisnik testimony.
4 JUDGE KWON: We'll add this to Exhibit P6564.
5 MR. TIEGER:
6 Q. Then Judge Orie continued his intervention:
7 "Mr. Milincic" -- this is at page 18441.
8 "Mr. Milincic, again, the only thing I'm asking you whether you
9 heard that Muslims and Croats were killed. I'm not asking you whether
10 you knew whether they told you where and when and how many; might the
11 following questions," is what the transcript says.
12 "Did you hear about Muslims and Croats --"
13 And you say at the bottom of the page:
14 "I heard. I heard. I heard. I heard. But I'm trying to be
15 specific and tell you about a place. But I can't. I heard stories. I
16 heard rumours."
17 Can you confirm that is the exchange you had with the
18 Presiding Judge in your testimony in the Krajisnik case?
19 A. I would like to add to that that I heard that many Serbs had been
20 killed both in Krajina and outside of Krajina. What's in dispute?
21 Q. Mr. Milincic, we'll move a lot faster if you don't ask any
22 questions --
23 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Because this was not discussed in
24 your -- in chief. Mr. Tieger was just asking you whether you confirm or
25 you stand by what you said in Krajisnik testimony?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard stories. I heard rumours.
2 This is how I defined those. I said it then and I'm repeating the same
3 thing. But this is too isolated. When you asked me about --
4 JUDGE KWON: Mr. --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- Croats and Muslims and when you
6 omit the Serbs, this is isolated --
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript --
8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milincic, the question was, I quote: Can you
9 confirm that is the exchange you had with the Judge in your testimony in
10 the Krajisnik case?
11 You could have answered just "yes." Do you agree?
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've said it. I have put things in
13 that context. I heard. I didn't see. I'm not claiming anything.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.
15 JUDGE KWON: Please don't overlap. If you say just once, we are
16 aware of this.
17 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On page 86, line 11 and line 12,
19 the witness did not say what it says here: I said that many Serbs were
20 killed as well. This now looks like a tu quoque and it was never meant
21 to be that.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that this is what I said.
23 I don't know. I believe that I said it because it was only logical for
24 me to say that.
25 MR. TIEGER: That's another singularly unhelpful intervention
1 when the witness confirms that's what he said and Dr. Karadzic tries to
2 re-interpret it.
3 Q. Let's move on. Mr. Milincic, when the ARK -- when the
4 Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of the Krajina was formed, the
5 presidents of municipalities were also members and you attended some of
6 those meetings; correct? That's what you testified to in Krajisnik?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.
8 MR. TIEGER: I'm asking a question.
9 MR. ROBINSON: And, Mr. Tieger, we have a procedure in this
10 courtroom that when there's an error in the transcript that Dr. Karadzic
11 is allowed to bring that to everyone's attention. So you have to be
12 patient in order to make -- allow him to make those interventions. Thank
13 you, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE BAIRD: May I just add something to that, gentlemen of the
15 bar, I think we should try to avoid having cross-talk at the bar table.
16 It might not do well for overall appearances. Thank you.
17 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Judge Baird, understood, and we'll act in
18 that fashion.
19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
20 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise, I was waiting for the
22 interpretation to be over. On page 87, in my intervention, the mistake
23 was repeated. I'm kindly asking you to listen to the entire today's
24 hearing and correct it. I -- the witness said: I also heard that Serbs
25 got killed. He didn't say what is written here. He talks about rumours.
1 There were rumours about some people and there were rumours about others
2 as well.
3 JUDGE KWON: The reason I just let that -- let it go is because I
4 didn't see much difference.
5 If you have problem with the transcript, I would like you to
6 raise it in writing later on with respect to this matter.
7 Shall we continue.
8 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
9 Q. Mr. Milincic -- well, let's just move to the transcript.
10 MR. TIEGER: If we can turn to page 18443 at the bottom, it will
11 move quickly into 18444.
12 "Q. And when the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of
13 Krajina was formed, the presidents of municipalities were also members
14 and you attended some of those meetings?
15 "A. Yes. Yes."
16 Q. You did confirm that in the Krajisnik case; correct?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. And in fact, you also testified - and that's at page 18362 - that
19 the ARK ordered Srbac to set up a Crisis Staff and you did so. You said:
20 "At some point in 1992, we received an order from AR Krajina, and
21 AR Krajina, once again, was an institution referring to the Krajina
22 municipalities gravitating around Banja Luka. Banja Luka was the centre.
23 And they suggested to us, ordered us, basically, to set up a
24 Crisis Staff, which would see to it that life in the municipality could
25 function as normally as possible ..."
1 That's what you testified to in the Krajisnik case; correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So in light of your contact with the ARK authorities, the ARK
4 Crisis Staff, the other presidents in the municipalities who attended
5 such meetings, you were asked during the Krajisnik case about your
6 opportunities to learn from those persons, from the leadership of the
7 region and the leaders of other municipalities, what was happening.
8 That's at 18444. And in particular, your attention was drawn to the
9 comments of Mr. Kupresanin, a man who was also from Srbac, at the
10 24th Session of the Bosnian Serb Assembly. And those comments can be
11 seen at 18445. That's when Mr. Kupresanin was saying that:
12 "'We say that the war was not necessary in Bosnia and
13 Herzegovina. The war in Bosnia and Herzegovina was necessary. Right
14 now, if we were to count the population right now, there would be,'
15 either" -- and the comment here is "either 'over' or 'about,' depending
16 on whether it's 'preko' or 'eko' [phoen], 'there would be over a million
17 Muslims in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bosnia and Herzegovina would be a
18 predominantly Serbian republic. Is war necessary in Serbia? It's a
19 horrible thing to say that the war would be necessary in Serbia. If
20 Serbia does not go into the war now, then in three to five years, the
21 Albanians and Muslims will entirely legally overtake the power in
22 Belgrade, along with the Serb opposition. This war was necessary for the
23 Serb people."
24 We're now on to 18447. And then you were asked:
25 "Mr. Milincic, isn't Mr. Kupresanin in that body, before all
1 those delegates, acknowledging the reduction of the Muslim population in
2 Bosnia and Herzegovina, a reduction that took place through massive
3 forcible expulsions? Isn't that what that's a reference to?"
4 And your answer was:
5 "Yes. Those are facts."
6 That's a correct summary -- that's a correct account of your
7 testimony in the Krajisnik case; correct?
8 A. No, no, I really can't recognise this. First I can't recognise
9 Vojo Kupresanin's words. Why didn't you ask him? He was here. Really.
10 And for me to confirm his statement, I really can't say that I could say
11 anything about any facts. What are the facts? Please tell me, what are
12 the facts here? I really don't know.
13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Milincic, probably you missed some part of the
14 question. This is what you testified in Krajisnik case. What Mr. Tieger
15 read out to you is your testimony in the Krajisnik case, and you were
16 read out the -- Mr. Kupresanin's speech and you were asked questions,
17 whether that's what he said.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I -- I -- I really can't confirm
19 that these are my words --
20 JUDGE KWON: [Previous translation continues]...
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and that I ever confirmed that.
22 I don't know what Vojo said.
23 JUDGE KWON: Very well. If you don't remember, that's fine.
24 MR. TIEGER: We'll tender it, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive these pages.
1 MR. TIEGER: Okay.
2 JUDGE KWON: But, by the way, how much longer do you need to
3 conclude your cross-examination?
4 MR. TIEGER: I'm jettisoning a great deal. I just want to finish
5 this section and then ask about one more very short concrete matter. So
6 I have one more section of this portion that concludes what we're doing
7 right now to present to the witness and then ask him about one very
8 discrete -- not even an issue, one previous statement he made.
9 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Please continue.
10 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.
11 Q. The questioning went on, Mr. Milincic, and then you were asked
12 about what Mr. Karadzic had said in July of 1992, that is, what both
13 Mr. Nedic and Mr. Karadzic said in July of 1992 at the 17th Assembly
14 Session. I'm now on page 18448. Mr. Nedic was quoted as saying:
15 "'... we must admit that the Muslims have been planted to us as a
16 people whose executioners we are to be. I do not want the Serb people to
17 be executioners, but I am also against us giving up our state, our land,
18 and our territory.'"
19 And then Dr. Karadzic was quoting discussing the -- his view of
20 the Oriental mentality stemming from Islam, the concern that Serbs could
21 not control the Muslim birth rate. And then he went on to say:
22 "'There is truth in what Mr. Kupresanin has said,' although, as I
23 indicated, that was a reference to Mr. Nedic, 'although nobody in Europe
24 will say it openly' ... 'that this conflict was roused in order to
25 eliminate the Muslims."
1 Moving on to 18449, I asked you in the Krajisnik case wasn't this
2 another acknowledgement of what was happening to Muslims in Bosnia and
3 Herzegovina in May, June, and July of 1992. And your answer was:
4 "As I am reading this, and as I'm listening to you, memories come
5 back. But in Srbac, we ignored this. We simply deleted this. This may
6 be the fact, but now, if you're asking me to remember what was said
7 12 years ago, it is impossible. And I adhere to what I said before, that
8 all the things that followed the inflammatory speeches and the concrete
9 things that were happening in the life, I was standing firmly on the
10 ground with my two feet and I made sure that life was normal in Srbac."
11 And then I asked you, Mr. Milincic:
12 "... rather than standing firmly with your feet on the ground ...
13 you were standing in Srbac, at best, with your eyes closed and your ears
14 closed and ignoring everything that was happening to the Muslims and the
15 Croats in the Krajina?"
16 And your answer was:
17 "What else could we do? In Srbac, I mean."
18 And that was your testimony in 2005 to the Krajisnik
19 Trial Chamber, wasn't it, Mr. Milincic?
20 A. This really looks ridiculous, it sounds ridiculous. And now
21 you're asking me or telling me that I should have intervened or that I
22 should have been I don't know what. Who was it who was talking? Nedic?
23 How should I know what Nedic was saying? I dealt with my misfortune in
24 the way that I wanted to illustrate. Everybody was unhappy in their own
25 way. In Republika Srpska we wanted to save ourselves the best we could.
1 I don't know what Nedic said.
2 What could I do in Srbac in order to prevent the escalation of
3 problems of the kind that happened in other municipalities? I really
4 can't help you with that, really. I stand by the fact and I am repeating
5 that when the municipalities had to deal with their own problems, I had
6 my problems. I went to meetings in Banja Luka in order to find out where
7 I could find oil, fuel, wood. I didn't want to pursue municipal
9 I may have heard some information, but that wasn't my position,
10 that was not my job. I couldn't cry. It was not up to me to sit and
11 cry. I had to act, I had to work. You have to understand that I was
12 saying this in order to give you a real picture. Everybody did things in
13 their own way.
14 Our situation was good. We had communication with the Croats all
15 the time. We never discussed that. I even brought some Croatian
16 newspapers, Arena, who spoke positively about the co-operation between
17 our two municipalities, and that it was really incredible to see things
18 like that happening.
19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Milincic.
20 MR. TIEGER: I tender those pages, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes, this will be added too.
22 MR. TIEGER: Okay.
23 Q. And finally, Mr. Milincic, you've painted yourself repeatedly --
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I?
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I kindly ask Mr. Tieger to
2 provide a reference as to where it was that I said that we could not
3 control their birth rate? That I said that we could not control their
4 birth rate.
5 MR. TIEGER: I was quoting from the transcript at 18448, and as a
6 general matter --
7 JUDGE KWON: Shall we continue. It's a quote from the
9 MR. TIEGER: Right. Thank you, Mr. President.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But that is --
11 JUDGE KWON: It can be discussed --
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's an allegation --
13 JUDGE KWON: It can be discussed --
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- Mr. Tieger's allegation.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes, you can raise it when this is over.
16 MR. TIEGER:
17 Q. And finally, Mr. Milincic, you have depicted yourself repeatedly
18 as a humanist, concerned wholly with legality, as I understood your
19 testimony. In fact, if we turn to P921, page 80 of the English and
20 page 55 of the B/C/S, you came out very early for the taking of
21 international personnel as hostages in order to improve the RS situation,
22 didn't you? At page -- this is the transcript of the 24th Session of the
23 Assembly of Republika Srpska held on the 8th of January, 1993, and I'll
24 quote what you said:
25 "We also have something to blackmail them with. Homeini, in his
1 time, held a very small number of Muslims in the American embassy in
2 Tehran and he sure did shake America quite well. Well, we also have
3 enough of those white men or others and that can be used as our weapon."
4 That's what you advocated to the Assembly at the beginning of
5 January 1993, didn't you, Mr. Milincic?
6 A. I have to help you a bit with that. This was taken out of
7 context. You haven't read out all of it. I told the story about the
8 lamb and the wolf there, the fable. We're always blamed. Let us do
9 something so that they understand that they need to talk to us. And I
10 said: Let's take some people, let's keep them here. Maybe they will
11 come to pick them up and then talk to us. And then you played something
12 two years after my statement of mine -- now, you see when I made this
13 statement, two years in advance, two years before the pilots. Don't tell
14 me that I was the architect of that idea for the pilots to be taken.
15 Really. This can be used very wrongly.
16 I said something, but as our people say, they're not taking
17 account of this. Let's take their people, let's bring them in. They
18 will come to get them and then we'll talk to them: Hey, people, we don't
19 want war. And now two years after that statement of mine in Banja Luka,
20 you are showing those pilots there two years later exactly. And I
21 chuckled and said: Are you saying that I was the architect of that idea
22 for arrests, hostages, whatever? I mean, I was telling this story, this
23 fable about the lamb and the wolf. It's the lamb's fault for drinking
24 water downstream and you've taken it out of context totally. We are not
25 being taken seriously. We want to talk, so if they won't do it in any
1 other way, let's bring them in by force and then they will come to pick
2 them up. And now you are playing this which two years later. Give me
3 the time when I said this in Banja Luka and give me the time when this
4 thing with the pilots happened.
5 Q. I didn't mention the word "pilots," Mr. Milincic, but thank you
6 for raising that.
7 MR. TIEGER: I have nothing further, Mr. President.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, because ...
9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
10 Do you have any re-examination, Mr. Karadzic?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, very briefly, Excellency.
12 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
13 Q. [Interpretation] Professor, did you ask for your remarks in the
14 Assembly to be translated into some kind of document, that this be
15 considered that way?
16 A. AR Krajina, is that what you mean?
17 Q. What was just shown to you, our Assembly.
18 A. Of course.
19 Q. Was this just free discussion or did you ask for this to be
20 adopted? Was there a vote on some proposal of yours?
21 A. No, no, I took part in this discussion. I mean, some people even
22 laughed sort of -- well, leave all of that aside, fairy tales, fables,
23 and so on.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 A. Well, this was just my discussion out of despair. If you mean
1 the wolf and the lamb, oh, yes, yes. I wanted to say in literary terms
2 that they are not respecting us and --
3 Q. Thank you. You were asked about things that happened in other
4 municipalities. Can you tell us how many incidents there were in your
5 municipality and who were they aimed against? Was it only against
7 A. I mentioned the Malesevics a moment ago, then the Vejinovics,
8 Kladari, I don't even remember the name of the family. People were
9 beaten up, looted -- it's really hard to speak about all these small
10 incidents. But percentage-wise there were more Serbs, of course, yes,
11 21.000. Now these people of ours who returned, say came on holiday --
12 Serbs who came on holiday, they were mistreated. They were robbed, if I
13 can use that word, intimidated, blackmailed, by these so-called heros.
14 Q. Thank you. But foreigners don't know on the basis of last names
15 what the ethnic background would be of Malesevic, Vejinovic, et cetera.
16 What was their ethnic background?
17 A. Serbs. Malesevic in Gornja Lepenica, Vejinovic in Razboj [phoen]
18 and then a Serb family in Kladari. So they were the victims of these
19 gangs that would come at night, robbing them, asking for money, fuel,
20 et cetera.
21 Q. Thank you. What was the attitude of the authorities against
22 these crimes committed against Serbs, Muslims, Croats? Did the
23 authorities instigate that, conceal it, or stop it?
24 A. I personally at the Crisis Staff beseeched, begged, insisted, I
25 said: These hoodlums who are mistreating innocent people, whoever it may
1 be, stop them from doing that, don't let them do that, take weapons from
2 them, bring them in.
3 Q. Thank you. As for what you heard, those rumours, what was
4 happening in other municipalities in the Krajina, regardless of whether
5 they were true or not, exaggerated or not, did you have information to
6 the effect that this was a product of the conduct of the authorities, our
7 authorities in these municipalities? What was the attitude of our
8 authorities towards that?
9 A. The authorities dealt with these individuals who were renegades,
10 if I can put it that way, one, two, three. So there were shoot-outs,
11 there was shooting. The authorities did not agree with that. They did
12 not want to justify that. They opposed it. They took away their
13 weapons, disarmed them, as I said. Say they would beat people up, say
14 they'd beat up a Serb and steal his tractor or a Golf car and then say
15 they'd walk on the Golf car, a Serb would do that to another Serb,
16 destroy his car. That's the kind of situation that would happen then at
17 the time. I mean, to this day we have such situations in municipalities
18 that people would have this kind of thing happening to them, even today.
19 Q. [No interpretation]
20 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not hear
21 Mr. Karadzic's question.
22 JUDGE KWON: Repeat the number, Mr. Karadzic.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D09746. Could we have the last
24 paragraph displayed now, 22.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. You saw there where the Prosecutor stopped. Can you tell us what
2 else is contained in this paragraph and that is not stated there, over
3 there they stopped with a representative of the Serb people?
4 A. We did not want a war, that's why we had a plebiscite. We
5 thought that the Cutileiro Plan was our salvation. We were happy that
6 all of that would be brought to an end; however, we know what happened.
7 We know what Izetbegovic did --
8 Q. Sorry, Professor. Just tell us this. Paragraph 22, was all of
9 it displayed or is there another subparagraph in that paragraph?
10 A. I cannot find it.
11 Q. The last paragraph above the witness acknowledgement.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We can no longer hear the
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Whenever we'd speak on the phone,
15 you would always suggest to me: Take this all into account, try to
16 pacify the extremists, protect people's property. Quite simply, perhaps
17 you have the best conditions, better than other municipalities. Take
18 refugees in, provide supplies to people. Those were the things that we
19 mentioned all the time, and through that I saw you as a person who saw
20 that Srbac could be successful in this. Oppose these adventurers and --
21 I don't know if I got the point here. We had the best conditions and
22 also this contact with the Croats on the other side. Srbac as a
23 municipality was a municipality. It was even suspected a bit by other
24 neighbouring municipalities because --
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Could I please ask you to tell us the following --
2 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Just a second, Mr. Karadzic.
3 I'm asking for planning purposes. How much longer do you need
4 for your re-direct?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Five minutes, Excellency.
6 JUDGE KWON: We will rise for two minutes.
7 --- Break taken at 2.46 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 2.48 p.m.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, for the remainder of the session, we'll sit --
10 we'll be sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis, without Judge Lattanzi, who
11 is -- who should attend another meeting.
12 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Can you tell us, Professor Milincic, whether the facts in this
16 statement are correct, truthful?
17 A. Everything that was said, from the establishment, the questions,
18 the problems I mentioned here, all of that is contained in this
20 Q. When you say "contained," what do you mean?
21 A. I mean that they are correct.
22 Q. Thank you. This statement, does it reflect truthfully your
23 position with regard to these developments --
24 MR. TIEGER: No, no, no, it's not appropriate to try to 92 ter
25 this statement. That's exactly what's going on. We're going through a
1 reverse attestation process and that's not appropriate here.
2 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, this is exactly what we were left
3 to do after the interventions during the cross-examination, is to show
4 that the circumstances under which the statement was taken was such that
5 the information is reliable is not something that was fed to him by the
6 Defence. And then we will tender the statement.
7 MR. TIEGER: Then he can ask about the one paragraph he was
8 asking about, that's certainly appropriate. But to try to bootstrap
9 impeachment that they consider effective, they need -- to respond to into
10 a basis for introducing the whole statement that has been determined to
11 be largely irrelevant by the Court is clearly inappropriate.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson and Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber is minded
14 to admit paragraph 22 in its entirety of this statement, but if the
15 Defence is going to tender the entire statement in order to show the
16 nature or process how witness statements are being made, Mr. Karadzic
17 should go one paragraph -- each paragraph one by one, how the -- what was
18 the effect and how the paragraph was formulated.
19 At this stage we'll admit paragraph 22 of this document in its
21 THE REGISTRAR: It receives Exhibit Number D4187, Your Honours.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 Could we show paragraph 4.
24 JUDGE KWON: No, I'm -- I don't think it's a good way to show the
25 paragraph first.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I already asked about departures
2 earlier on. I've already asked about that.
3 MR. TIEGER: It's ...
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE KWON: I didn't follow you, Mr. Karadzic. You were going
6 to re-examine the witness about the departure which was referred to
7 during the cross-examination of Mr. Tieger or you are going to deal with
8 the manner and the process how witness statement was prepared?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, both, Excellencies. First of
10 all, to establish whether it is the way the Prosecution claims, whether
11 words were put there. Actually, it's better for me to ask, not to talk
12 about this in front of the witness. Let me ask the witness and then you
13 will decide what you will admit.
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
15 MR. TIEGER: I didn't cross-examine on the issue of how many
16 Muslims left or didn't leave Srbac.
17 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry, I understood departure as departure from
18 the policy, whether SDS departed from the policy in which Mr. Karadzic
19 expressed in the rally or something like that. I misunderstood. I
20 didn't see -- I didn't read this para 4.
21 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, I don't see why Dr. Karadzic can't
22 display to the witness the paragraph and ask him whether or not --
23 JUDGE KWON: It's a leading question --
24 MR. ROBINSON: No, it's not a leading question. The question
25 would be: Is this your words or did someone put these words into your
1 mouth --
2 JUDGE KWON: No, no, no, you didn't understand my question. I
3 asked the purpose of that question was which, but he said: Yes, both, in
4 order to elicit the statement -- evidence contained in the statement. To
5 show the statement itself is a leading question.
6 MR. ROBINSON: Well, Mr. President, I think the object here is to
7 admit certain paragraphs of the statement. So to do that simply to try
8 to show whether or not these are his words or whether somebody put words
9 in his mouth, that's the object of what we're trying to do. I don't
10 think it's leading to ask: Is this your words or did someone put this
11 in -- this is not what you said? If he says it's his words, it shows
12 that the statement itself and the information that was brought to this
13 Court by this witness is his own formulation and not something that was
14 suggested by the Defence. And that's completely proper in response to
15 what Mr. Tieger has done.
16 JUDGE KWON: However, having heard the witness's statement that
17 they are his words, I don't think that exercise would help the Chamber at
18 all, whether it --
19 MR. ROBINSON: But then the Chamber -- what the Chamber has done
20 is exclude our statement, including paragraphs which you acknowledge were
21 relevant to Dr. Karadzic's case, required us to lead the witness live,
22 and then given the Prosecution 100 per cent benefit of what it wanted
23 from the statement while depriving us of the right to have what we want
24 from the statement admitted.
25 MR. TIEGER: It's not a game. I mean, it's the Defence that --
1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger, you can sit down.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE KWON: Oh, the Status Conference will take place at 15.30.
4 We should withdraw from this courtroom at 1500 hours sharp. There's a
6 We'll allow the question but not today. We'll continue tomorrow
7 morning at 9.00.
8 Mr. Milincic, the hearing is adjourned.
9 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.00 p.m.,
10 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 12th day of
11 December, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.