Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 45305

 1                           Wednesday, 18 December 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             Would the witness make the solemn declaration.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 9     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10                           WITNESS:  RADOMIR RADINKOVIC

11                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Radinkovic.  Please be seated and

13     make yourself comfortable.

14             Mr. Radinkovic, before you commence your evidence, I must draw

15     your attention to a certain rule of evidence that we have here at the

16     International Tribunal.  That is Rule 90(E).  Under this rule, you may

17     object to answering any question from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecutor, or

18     even from the Judges if you believe that your answer might incriminate

19     you in a criminal offence.  In this context, "incriminate" means saying

20     something that might amount to an admission of guilt for a criminal

21     offence or saying something that might provide evidence that might

22     suggest you have committed a criminal offence.

23             However, should you think that an answer might incriminate you

24     and as a consequence you refuse to answer the question, I must let you

25     know that the Tribunal has the power to compel you to answer the

Page 45306

 1     question.  But in that situation, the Tribunal would ensure that your

 2     testimony compelled under such circumstances would not be used in any

 3     case that might be laid against you for any offence, save and except the

 4     offence of giving false testimony.

 5             Do you understand what I have just told you, Mr. Radinkovic?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I have.  Thank you.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 8             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Good morning,

10     Your Excellencies.  Good morning, everyone.

11                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Radinkovic.

13        A.   Good morning.

14        Q.   Thank you for making a pause between questions and answers, and

15     you should remind me, too, to make a sufficiently long pause for

16     everything to be recorded.

17             Have you given a statement to my Defence team?

18        A.   Yes, I have.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

21     in e-court 1D49035.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Do you see the front page of your statement?

24        A.   I do.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Have you read and signed this statement?

Page 45307

 1        A.   Yes, in full.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please show the witness

 3     the last page to identify it.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Is this your signature?

 6        A.   That's my signature.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Does this statement faithfully reflect what you have

 8     said to the Defence team?  Is there anything you would like to correct?

 9        A.   All of it is exactly what I said, what I was able to remember

10     after all this time, and at this time I have no additions to make.

11        Q.   If I were to put to you the same questions today as those put to

12     you by my associates, would your answers be essentially the same as in

13     the statement?

14        A.   They believed be completely the same.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tender this statement under

17     Rule 92 ter.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Any objection, Ms. Edgerton.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  No.

20             JUDGE KWON:  About the associated exhibits?

21             MS. EDGERTON:  No.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll admit them both.  Shall we assign the

23     numbers for them.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  The statement received Exhibit Number D4204.  The

25     associated exhibit 05460 receives Exhibit Number D4205, Your Honours.

Page 45308

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 2             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I will now read in

 4     English the summary of Mr. Radomir Radinkovic's statement.

 5             [In English] Radomir Radinkovic was mobilised on June the 21st,

 6     1991, and served as an OB (intelligence and security) officer in the JNA.

 7     He was mobilised into the VRS in May 1992 and was also assigned to the

 8     post of intelligence and security officer at the 1st Krajina Corps.

 9             The Manjaca camp was set up by the command of the JNA and it

10     served as a camp for the prisoners of war captured in Stara Gradiska in

11     Croatia.  The police were in charge of external security and the military

12     police were in charge of the internal security.  Civilian police only

13     went inside the camp when bringing in new prisoners, while military

14     police went into the camp compound to bring people in for questioning or

15     for medical examinations.  No one ever ordered or allowed that the rights

16     of prisoners be violated and every effort was made to protect the

17     prisoners from irresponsible individuals.

18             It will role of the OB was to ensure security and safety in the

19     camp, to report to the superior command, and to propose protective

20     measures.  Reports were sent at least once week, and sometimes on a daily

21     basis and addressed all the issues of importance for the security.

22             The civilian police interrogated prisoners in the camp in order

23     to examine them and to document any previously committed crimes.  They

24     did this with the knowledge and approval of the OB chief of the

25     1st Krajina Corps.  Upon their arrival, prisoners were made aware of

Page 45309

 1     their rights and obligations in connection with the status of prisoners

 2     of war and their state in the camp.  Medical examinations were then

 3     performed, and hygiene and prevention measures were taken before

 4     transferring prisoners to their assigned accommodation in the facility.

 5             All those who worked on breaking up the state were considered and

 6     treated as the extremists.  Security services submitted information about

 7     the individuals who had taken part in incidents in the field so that

 8     measures could be taken to prevent other security incidents.

 9     Specifically, they had intelligence about the extreme activities of

10     Omer Filipovic, who was the founder of the SDA in Kljuc and who

11     established a paramilitary formation in the area.

12             Most prisoners in the Manjaca camp were Muslims, some were

13     Croats, and there were a few Serbs.  Prisoners were selected and released

14     based on the evaluation and proposals by the operational team of the OB,

15     by the camp commander, medical services, and the approval of the command

16     of the 1st Krajina Corps.

17             The killing of Omer Filipovic and Esad Bender have been done by

18     some members of the military police acting on their own volition.  This

19     case was dealt by the crime-fighting service of the military police

20     battalion.  The perpetrators were suspended and criminal proceedings were

21     instigated against them.  After the war, they were convicted by the

22     district court in Banja Luka.

23             Prisoners of war were given status under the Geneva Conventions,

24     which meant that they were registered and verified, that lists were

25     compiled, health care was provided, together with the regular meals,

Page 45310

 1     sufficient quantities of drinking water, and accommodation, and that they

 2     were allowed visits by the ICRC through whom they maintained contact with

 3     their families.  People caught without weapons could also be considered

 4     as prisoners of war, in case they assisted members of the armed forces or

 5     put up unarmed resistance.  The ICRC reports on the treatment of the

 6     prisoners are generally accurate; however, sections of these reports are

 7     biased.  They failed to take into account the general situation and the

 8     inability to ensure better conditions.  Some people were held in the

 9     camps for their own safety.

10             The ICRC and many journalists were granted approval to visit the

11     camp by President Karadzic.  Some of the prisoners were released on

12     14th of November, 1992.  This group was composed by the young, the

13     elderly, and those in extremely poor health.  Some sick prisoners were

14     also pardoned and sent to Geneva for medical treatment.  No more

15     prisoners were transferred to the Manjaca camp after 6th of August, 1992,

16     and in December 1992 the camp was closed.

17             If someone from security harassed prisoners of war, measures were

18     taken against them.  Charges were brought against the perpetrators

19     responsible for incidents in the camp and most of them have already been

20     processed.  Within the possibilities at the time, maximum treatment was

21     provided in terms of accommodation, water supply, food, medical

22     treatment, and hygiene.  Vojo Kupresanin, a leading man in the ARK,

23     visited the camp in 1992.  The aim of his visit was to convince the

24     prisoners of war that a solution would be found as to the question of

25     their release from custody.  He also issued a document pardoning some

Page 45311

 1     prisoners of war.  The Republika Srpska leadership did not order or

 2     recommend the ill-treatment or liquidation of prisoners of war.

 3             And that is the summary.  At that moment, I do not have questions

 4     for Mr. Radinkovic.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 6             Mr. Radinkovic, your evidence in chief in this case has been

 7     admitted in writing, that is, through your written statement.  Now, you

 8     will be cross-examined by the representative of the Office of the

 9     Prosecutor.

10             Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

12                           Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

13        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Radinkovic.

14        A.   [In English] Good morning.

15        Q.   Do you understand English?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Radinkovic, I'd like to start your

18     cross-examination by getting you to confirm some information about

19     Manjaca that's additional to what you spoke about in your statement.

20             First, you can confirm, I take it, that particularly between June

21     and August 1992 Manjaca received a massive number of prisoners; right?

22        A.   [Interpretation] Yes, and even the number of these arrivals is

23     stated.

24        Q.   Well -- okay, talking about the number, at its -- its fullest,

25     the prisoner population at Manjaca was in excess of 3.500 people; right?

Page 45312

 1        A.   It never reached that number at any one time.  The maximum at one

 2     time was around 2.000, because some people left and new ones came.  They

 3     departed to be exchanged.  They were transported to third countries or

 4     elsewhere.  And some new people came.

 5        Q.   Well, now, are you quite sure about those figures?  Because I've

 6     read your testimony that you gave in 2011 to the state court in

 7     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and there you said that the population ranged,

 8     actually.  At page 29, you said it was almost 3.000, and then at page 68

 9     you said at one point it went up to maybe 4-, 4.500?

10        A.   That's what I said.  It varied.  Sometimes there were more,

11     sometimes less.  That's what I was trying to explain.

12        Q.   Fine, thank you.  And you talked in your written evidence about

13     the ethnic background of the prisoners at Manjaca, and in the summary of

14     your evidence Dr. Karadzic said that most were Bosnian Muslims.  In fact,

15     over 85 per cent were Bosniaks; that's right, isn't it?

16        A.   Precisely.

17        Q.   And this massive amount of prisoners came predominantly to your

18     camp from detention sites in Kljuc, Prijedor, and Sanski Most; correct?

19        A.   Yes, precisely.

20        Q.   And they also came from Doboj, Mrkonjic Grad?

21        A.   From Doboj, yes, but we have no records that anyone came from

22     Mrkonjic Grad, maybe they were from Kljuc.  But there was one group from

23     Doboj.

24        Q.   Jajce --

25        A.   More precisely from Rudari or some place like that.  We didn't

Page 45313

 1     have a separate list.

 2        Q.   Jajce?

 3        A.   There was no separate list from Jajce either.

 4        Q.   Bosanska Dubica?

 5        A.   There were no organised transports from Bosanska Dubica.  There

 6     is a possibility that some people from there were brought with groups

 7     from Prijedor and others to the Manjaca camp, but not specifically from

 8     Dubica.

 9        Q.   That's fine.  Now, the transfer of these prisoners from all these

10     locations to Manjaca from the areas I've just listed, that involved the

11     co-operation of the police forces, didn't it?

12        A.   Transports were handled exclusively by the civilian police from

13     other collection centres, from other towns, that was the responsibility

14     of the civilian police.  They brought these people and handed them over

15     to Manjaca camp.  By entering the camp, from the moment of entering the

16     camp, they became prisoners of war.

17        Q.   Now all of these prisoners that you said 85 per cent of were

18     Bosniaks, the rest, the other 15 per cent were Croats; right?

19        A.   Croats and just a few Serbs, yes.

20        Q.   Now, I just want to talk about what Dr. Karadzic described in his

21     summary as their assigned accommodation.  You can confirm that the

22     prisoners at Manjaca were housed in cattle sheds; right?

23        A.   These structures were originally cattle sheds, but they were

24     adapted for a different use, so they were no longer cattle sheds.  They

25     were hangars prepared especially to accommodate these prisoners of war.

Page 45314

 1     So everything was done to prepare these structures to be used by people,

 2     not cattle.

 3        Q.   Each of these cattle sheds accommodated about 7- or 800 men;

 4     right?

 5        A.   Precisely.

 6        Q.   And the prisoners slept on the ground where the cattle used to be

 7     tied; right?

 8        A.   If the cattle had been tied there, still it was covered by

 9     concrete later.  So it was no longer a shed.  It was clean, clean straw

10     and blankets were provided in rows so that people could sleep normally in

11     rows.

12        Q.   They slept on the ground; right?  They slept on the floor of the

13     cattle sheds where the cattle used to be tied; right?

14        A.   Yes, they used to be tied.  But when you looked at it at that

15     time, nothing would tell you that it used to be a cattle shed.  It was in

16     hygienic terms prepared for housing people.

17        Q.   We'll talk a little bit more about the accommodations then, given

18     what you've just said.  And I recall in your statement, you said things

19     like at paragraph 34, healthcare was provided, the prisoners had regular

20     meals, they had enough drinking water.  So keeping that in mind and what

21     you've just said, I wonder if we could have a look at a document.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  It's P3758.  And if we could go over to page 5, I

23     think, in both languages.

24        Q.   Paragraph 3, at the bottom of this page -- oh, pardon me, this is

25     an ICRC report on the visit -- their visit to Manjaca on 16 July 1992.

Page 45315

 1     And their observations and experiences.  Now, this report, if you go down

 2     to paragraph 3 at the bottom says:

 3             "The general living conditions with regard to food, hygiene,

 4     clothing and accommodation ... are absolutely insufficient,"

 5     Mr. Radinkovic.

 6        A.   [No interpretation]

 7        Q.   And if you go over to the next page in both languages, it says at

 8     the top:

 9             "Many detainees show marked weight loss and signs of anemia with

10     severity often corresponding to the length of detention."

11             And, Mr. Radinkovic, this Chamber has also heard evidence from

12     prisoners who were detained at Manjaca.  They have heard evidence that

13     there was never enough food.  They have heard evidence that the prisoners

14     were at periods so hungry that men ate grass.  They've heard evidence

15     that the water that the prisoners were given was unclean, it came from a

16     lake where guards urinated into the lake, and even prisoners were forced

17     to do the same.  There were tadpoles swimming in the water.  They have

18     heard evidence that - and this document reports that - prisoners only had

19     the opportunity to take a shower twice a month.  And they have heard

20     evidence that not everyone had a blanket and not everyone had straw.

21             So, Mr. Radinkovic, when you said a little while ago that

22     "nothing would tell you that the accommodations that they were in used to

23     be a cattle shed," actually the evidence that we've heard suggests that

24     not only were the prisoners accommodated in the cattle facilities, they

25     were treated like animals.  And the ICRC report we've just looked at

Page 45316

 1     corroborates the evidence that the prisoners have given.  Nothing about

 2     the conditions were adequate, were they, Mr. Radinkovic?

 3        A.   I would not agree with that since these were probably statements

 4     made by individuals who, for reasons of their own, said that.  I claim

 5     that most prisoners of war can confirm my position; that is to say, that

 6     at that point in time the best possible was provided by the military

 7     command, not to say the top echelons of power, because at the time,

 8     people all over Republika Srpska were hungry too.  There was very little

 9     food and there weren't enough resources for hygiene and whatever.  But I

10     claim with full responsibility that at that point in time, a maximum was

11     provided to those people.

12             People lost a lot of weight in the camp because before the ICRC

13     arrived, another group arrived from another centre, and then there were a

14     lot of people there who had lost a lot of weight, and then it was

15     presented as if some prisoners had been starved and so on and so forth.

16     If I tell you that the food was basically identical up until the moment

17     when the Red Cross was involved -- I mean, what people ate there is what

18     the prisoners of war ate too.  So no one had the need to graze grass.

19     This is just an arbitrary statement made by some individuals -- some

20     individual, that is to say, that is groundless.

21             As for the water, yes, there is a lake there, but it is a source,

22     quite literally a spring.  And in hygienic vessels, water was brought

23     from there for all of us who lived there because we didn't have any other

24     water at that point in the time.  That is to say that this is wrong to

25     say that somebody was swimming there or floating or whatever.  Now,

Page 45317

 1     further away from the camp, there was this other lake.

 2             I claim with full responsibility that everybody got two blankets.

 3     One for covering themselves and the other blanket to be put on the straw.

 4     Within the camp itself, they chose their own commanders, these

 5     facilities, these buildings had commanders of their own, and then they

 6     could bring in as much straw as they wanted.  So nobody could just lie on

 7     the concrete, as that statement says.  So that would be what I had to

 8     say.

 9             As for the Red Cross, they always provided their opinion.

10     Sometimes it was positive, sometimes it was negative.  There are some

11     that are very positive.  So it's not that it was all that bad, all black

12     if you will.  There were some positive opinions, too.  Well, that would

13     be it.

14        Q.   Right.  Well, we'll come back to this document in a little while.

15     But I want to talk a little bit more about the prison population.  In the

16     summary of your evidence, Dr. Karadzic actually confirmed that

17     included -- just to start with, included in the prison population there

18     were some minors; right?  There were kids who were detained at Manjaca;

19     right?

20        A.   No, not children.  There were say 18 or 19 -- well, they were not

21     of age.  They -- we said that they were minors because they were not of

22     age yet, but the authorities that arrested them probably assessed that

23     they should be brought in.  We did not receive any description as to why

24     that happened, but that was the selection made.  And as you said

25     yourself, I mean, children, well, they cannot really constitute any kind

Page 45318

 1     of danger or threat, and then they could be released or they could be

 2     taken to third countries, whatever.  The camp could be left.  There were

 3     such cases.  And then there were also some people who were so old and

 4     frail.  Regardless of what the description was over there, you would see

 5     that some man would be so old that he should be allowed to leave and so

 6     on and so forth.

 7             Let me say something else in passing:  It's not contained in any

 8     one of these documents.  Our medical service -- actually, we didn't

 9     really have a medical service, but at least 20 or 30 people were taken

10     from the Manjaca camp to the clinical centre in Banja Luka for medical

11     treatment if they were exhausted, frail, sick, and so on.  Some were even

12     transported to Geneva and places like that from there, so the treatment

13     of these persons was very humane.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 14, line 2.  [In English]

17     "Regardless of what the description of their misdeeds ..."

18     [Interpretation] "Regardless of what the description was of what they had

19     done," that is not contained in the transcript.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

21             Please continue, Ms. Edgerton.

22             MS. EDGERTON:

23        Q.   So the authorities who brought in prisoners brought in some

24     people underage.  They also brought in men who were elderly, as you've

25     just said, and people who were sick; right?

Page 45319

 1        A.   Yes, now were they sick when they left?  But it turned out that

 2     they were sick when they were there, yes, that is correct.

 3        Q.   And you would have found, then, when you and your operational

 4     team were processing the prisoners who were brought in, that the

 5     authorities who had detained them also brought you a great number who

 6     were obviously either civilians or known not to have been involved in any

 7     of the actions that supposedly justified their capture.  That's fair,

 8     isn't it?

 9        A.   Well, it's not correct.  We in the team did not know what guided

10     them to arrest theme people and to bring them in.  Some gave some

11     information about the movement of our units, forces, et cetera,

12     regardless of how old they were, and then they would fall under that,

13     that they had participated in some way in the conflicts and so on and so

14     forth.  So we were not out there on the ground to establish who was

15     brought in on account of what, but they were certainly grounds for

16     bringing them there.  It's not that somebody was just picked up and

17     brought there without any kind of grounds or for no reason.

18        Q.   Well, I'd like to show you a document that's prepared by part of

19     your operative team.

20             MS. EDGERTON:  For that, Your Honours, we need to go into private

21     session.  It's a document that was tendered under seal.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

23                           [Private session]

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 45320











11  Pages 45320-45322 redacted.  Private session.















Page 45323

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6                           [Open session]

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 9        Q.   In fact, Mr. Radinkovic, what you found as you and your operative

10     team continued to work over the course of the summer was that prisoners

11     had been captured on a purely arbitrary basis.  In fact, the only thing

12     they had in common was that they weren't Serb; right?

13        A.   I never said that they were arrested arbitrarily.  I just said

14     that there was the possibility that there were such persons among them.

15     I claim with full responsibility that not a single person was arrested

16     just because he or she was not a Serb.  So it was not on ethnic grounds.

17     Why would they arrest him if he's loyal?  Do not forget that a lot of

18     people were in the armed forces of Republika Srpska, people of other

19     religious backgrounds, Muslims and Croats, who wanted to be there and who

20     remained loyal to the people that they lived with and their environment,

21     so I cannot reconcile myself to that, that somebody was just brought in

22     because they were a Muslim or a Croat or some third thing.

23        Q.   Or they were brought in if they weren't loyal.  They were brought

24     in if they didn't want to accept the authority of a Serbian state.

25        A.   I claim with full responsibility that nobody forced anyone to

Page 45324

 1     accept the authority of Republika Srpska.  As a matter of fact, some

 2     people left, no problem whatsoever, and they had never had any problems

 3     and they did not put up any resistance.  People simply assessed that it

 4     was better for them to leave.  That was their choice.  So that this was

 5     some type of pressure, I would not agree with that.  No way.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  Your indulgence for a moment.

 7        Q.   I'll go on to another area.  I want to talk about pardons because

 8     you talked about that in your statement.  And I want to show you -- I

 9     want to start by showing you one of your own documents.  It's P5472.  And

10     it's your report -- your report of activities at the camp to the 1 KK

11     command for the dates of 18 to 20 August 1992.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  And if we can go over to page 4 in English.

13        Q.   And page 2 in your language.  You see there the last paragraph of

14     the document says that -- it indicates you received a task from

15     Major Stupar, which was the result of a communication from the

16     VRS Main Staff, and in accordance with that communication called a joint

17     meeting with representatives of the CSBs in the area and in your security

18     department.  Do you see that paragraph?  And --

19        A.   I do.

20        Q.   And that --

21        A.   I do.

22        Q.   -- at that meeting Major Stupar and Vaso Skondric presented some

23     tasks a for joint work.  Who was Vaso Skondric?  Can you tell us that?

24        A.   Given the time aspect, I cannot remember what the function of

25     that man was.  Probably somebody from the civilian structures of these

Page 45325

 1     municipalities that have been listed.

 2        Q.   Right.  And we'll see that shortly.  And now based on this

 3     communication from the Main Staff, you would have had a meeting; right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Well, let's go over then to P3491.  And that's an excerpt from a

 6     diary of a fellow by the name of Tode Gajic, and you remember him because

 7     you talked about him in your testimony in front of the state court.  He

 8     was an inspector at the Kljuc SJB.  And these are his notes about that

 9     meeting.  On the 20th of August, you were among the people who sat with

10     Major Stupar, Mr. Skondric, the camp commander, Colonel Popovic, to

11     discuss the treatment and the prominence of persons who participated in

12     the armed conflict.  And do you see just under point number 4 your

13     name -- where your name is, that:

14             "Introductory remarks on the Serbian Republic Presidency's

15     position were presented by Major Stupar."

16        A.   I see that, both.

17        Q.   Right.  So there is Major Stupar's position, he's presenting the

18     position of the Presidency, which is to release people -- release

19     innocent people, people that you have no justification for detaining, who

20     were so sick that that would attract the attention of the media and

21     humanitarian organisations.  So that's what Mr. Gajic's notes record;

22     right?

23        A.   I see that that's there.  Okay.

24        Q.   That's what you understood the Presidency's position to be; isn't

25     that right?

Page 45326

 1        A.   Well, we did because Major Stupar came from a corps command with

 2     that kind of position, the command position that he must have received on

 3     the basis of an order from the Presidency or higher organs.

 4        Q.   And you've got a list, and we'll go to that list in a minute, of

 5     92 candidates you have to review in regard to this position.  Let's --

 6     let's go and look at a couple of names on that list.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  Let's go over to page 5 in both languages.

 8        Q.   So on page 5 at number 11, we see, for example, Refik Salihovic,

 9     and he was arrested on the 29th of May, and he's sick with active

10     tuberculosis.  Do you see that?

11        A.   I see that.

12        Q.   And number 13 on the list, Muharem Mehmedovic.  He was born in

13     1937.  He was arrested on 26 June.  He has gall bladder problems,

14     diabetes, and he can't stand.  Do you see that one, too?

15        A.   I see that.

16             MS. EDGERTON:  Let's go over to page 6.

17        Q.   Do you see Refik Dedic at number 20?  He's got kidney disease.

18     Born in 1934.

19        A.   I see that, too.

20             MS. EDGERTON:  Let's go over to page 12 in both languages.

21        Q.   Now we're on the list of minors.  Do you see number 11,

22     Denis Gromlic.  There's minors born in 1974 and 1975.  Denis Gromlic, who

23     was 17 at the time he was arrested, he's one of the 92 whose cases you

24     considered.

25        A.   Yes, I see that.

Page 45327

 1        Q.   So these were examples of --

 2        A.   Yes, he must have been.

 3        Q.   These were examples of the types of illnesses and disabilities

 4     you picked for release from Manjaca because of the attention they could

 5     attract; right?

 6        A.   No, that's not the reason.  The reason was that it was obvious

 7     that this person was young and that the others have been medically

 8     treated already, and the most logical thing was for them to go somewhere

 9     outside the camp.

10        Q.   So we looked at this document.  The first page of this document

11     sets out the position of the Presidency, and the position of the

12     Presidency is to release innocent people who were so sick they would

13     attract attention from media and humanitarian organisations.  My question

14     to you was:  These are examples of the people who fit that criteria;

15     right?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  Where does it say

17     "innocent people"?

18             MS. EDGERTON:  It's --

19             JUDGE KWON:  On the first page, I think we saw reference that no

20     evidence of executing or participating in the military activities.  I

21     think that term was used in that context.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  Correct.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  Correct.

25        Q.   So back to my question, Mr. Radinkovic.  These are examples of

Page 45328

 1     the people who fit that criteria; right?

 2        A.   These are only some examples, but others are not stated.  Others

 3     for who we assessed without any medical documentation, and we reached the

 4     conclusion that it would be humane to release them from the camp.  That's

 5     very important to say.

 6        Q.   Now -- thank you.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  Let's look at P3721.

 8        Q.   It's a document dated 11 September 1992, and it's a 1 KK

 9     communication forwarding the contents of a telegram from the Presidency,

10     which grants amnesty to 69 prisoners from Manjaca and Trnopolje.

11             Now, Mr. Radinkovic, can you have a look at this list.  Number 6

12     is the minor Denis Gromlic, number 17 is Refik Salihovic, and number 29

13     is Refik Dedic.  Those are the three names that I identified to you that

14     you discussed at your meeting on the 20th of August; right?

15        A.   Yes, exactly.  And that corroborates what I said, that we

16     released people of whom we thought that they should or actually needed to

17     leave the camp.

18        Q.   So your list that you arrived at as a result of that meeting went

19     up the chain of command as far as the Presidency and all the way back

20     down again, so the decision on pardon could eventually be implemented;

21     right?

22        A.   Exactly.

23        Q.   Now, this pardon of 69 people out of a prison population at

24     Manjaca alone of -- we've talked of a number of prisoners between 2.000

25     and 4.500, that's actually really just a token gesture, isn't it?  It's a

Page 45329

 1     way of avoiding some undesirable publicity from the international

 2     community and to garner some credit with them, especially in light of the

 3     story about the camps that had broken earlier on in August.

 4        A.   I wouldn't agree with you because even before that, we had

 5     released people under the same criteria, not only pursuant to this list.

 6     There were also people released who are not on this list.  This is dated

 7     the 11th of September, 1992, and people were released much earlier.  Some

 8     of the released were even religious ministers or hodzas, for example.

 9        Q.   So in addition to the sick, the elderly, civilians, people who

10     weren't participant in combat activities, you also had religious figures

11     in Manjaca camp?

12        A.   There were a couple and they were among the first to be released.

13        Q.   Well, it's interesting that you didn't agree with my

14     characterisation of this as a token gesture to garner some international

15     credit, because that's exactly what Dr. Karadzic told his people that it

16     was.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  We can go to D456.

18        Q.   And it's a transcript -- it's so you can read it, but I'll read

19     it to you, it's a copy of the transcript of the 20th Assembly Session of

20     Republika Srpska, dated 15 September 1992.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  And we can go to English page 55.  And the passage

22     I'm going to refer to is about nine lines down from the top, and B/C/S

23     page 58.  And on page 58, it's about 16 lines up from the bottom.

24        Q.   Dr. Karadzic talked about prisoners of war.  And he said:

25             "About three weeks before they started talking about camps, we

Page 45330

 1     submitted a 16-page pamphlet to the British parliament, to all important

 2     foreign correspondents about concentration camps for Serbs, but no one

 3     paid any attention."

 4             Dr. Karadzic said:

 5             "Disbanding Trnopolje does not mean letting up.  If they want to

 6     take them abroad, let them.  They want to take 69 sick people tomorrow,

 7     let them," 69, exactly the same number of people on the pardon that I

 8     just showed you, "Let them.  That will give us great credit among the

 9     international public.  We want to co-operate, we want to deal with

10     humanitarian issues, and that helps us.  Don't worry about that.  We

11     don't need Manjaca.  If only all the Green Berets had been killed with a

12     rifle in their hand, but once they have been captured, then we must abide

13     by the Geneva Conventions and it's all for nothing.  It would suit us if

14     it were shut down, disbanded, shut down and sent somewhere, but not for

15     them to return to the battle-field."

16             So, Mr. Radinkovic, whatever humanitarian considerations you in

17     your operative team might have had in mind, for Dr. Karadzic, these 69

18     people were just a token, weren't they?

19        A.   Well, that's the opinion of Mr. Karadzic.  I respect that.  The

20     president said that and that seems to be his position.

21        Q.   And meanwhile, the great number of civilians and people who your

22     processing showed had been detained without justification remained at

23     Manjaca as human collateral; right?

24        A.   By no means.  They are not a collateral damage.  It was their

25     salvation.  I state that with full responsibility.  If they had gone

Page 45331

 1     anywhere from there, individually or in small groups, it is very doubtful

 2     how they would have ended up.  And there they were guarded, they were

 3     visited by the International Red Cross, and they had a certain status.

 4     It's a great question if many of them had been alive today, if they had

 5     left and went elsewhere on their own.  I still maintain that.

 6        Q.   You gave evidence, to switch topics, in your statement that

 7     prisoners at Manjaca were beaten.  That was at paragraph 12 on page 4 and

 8     at paragraph 28.  That's right, isn't it?  Prisoners at Manjaca were

 9     beaten?

10        A.   Yes, yes.

11        Q.   And you saw that on arriving at Manjaca, prisoners bore the marks

12     of having been beaten.

13        A.   Yes, it was established and verified and even the International

14     Red Cross confirmed it.

15        Q.   And on their arrival at Manjaca, prisoners were also beaten.

16     Policemen would make a gauntlet for prisoners entering the camp to pass

17     through and those prisoners were beaten by the policemen?

18        A.   There was some partial cases, but only at the beginning.  Only

19     until such a regime and such criteria were introduced that whoever tried

20     to do anything without being ordered was removed from his position and

21     replaced by somebody else who was able to do their job properly.  That

22     was exclusively their idea.  It was their initiative, the initiative of

23     some individuals.  They guided themselves with other considerations.  It

24     was their neighbours who knew who had had weapons and so on and so forth.

25     But we removed those who behaved in violation of the regulations, but we

Page 45332

 1     removed them and finally there were no such cases left.

 2        Q.   And you said when you testified before the state court in 2011,

 3     that the situation I described to you was actually a common practice.  It

 4     happened, unfortunately, in your words, often.

 5        A.   I pointed out that it may have be common practice but at the

 6     beginning, while the people were frustrated, the very police officers

 7     providing security.  You must bear in mind that some of their relatives

 8     may have been killed or massacred, and then they would avenge themselves.

 9     But we didn't know who these people were, because it wasn't written all

10     over them.  We first -- when we identified them, we looked at people who

11     were able to carry out their duties properly, but it was certainly not

12     anything permanent.

13        Q.   And you also had confidential sources in the camp, because you're

14     a security operative.  You had confidential sources who told you that

15     prisoners were being physically abused; right?

16        A.   Yes, that is right.  Through our sources we came up with the

17     names of the perpetrators of these crimes, because we considered them

18     crimes too, right there.  And we singled them out, we suspended them, and

19     replaced them.  And you know what they got as a reward when they left

20     Manjaca?  They had to go to the front line to fight.

21        Q.   And you yourself saw when prisoners were brought in for

22     interviews, that they showed signs of having been physically beaten.  You

23     saw it too.

24        A.   Yes, I saw it.  Often they would say that they had fallen down

25     upon arriving, and that's why they were bloody.  But we were

Page 45333

 1     professionals and were able to conclude that the one who had brought them

 2     couldn't do so anymore, and he didn't.  He was replaced by somebody else

 3     who was able to do the job in a more professional manner and with less

 4     emotion.

 5        Q.   So when you said in your written evidence that people who were

 6     responsible for perpetrating these beatings were dismissed, you mean they

 7     were simply transferred away to other duties?  On the front line, for

 8     example.

 9        A.   That wasn't a transfer.  It was like a punishment.  But the ones

10     who were suspended, who had committed criminal acts, they were even taken

11     by their police to military prison.  And they weren't allowed to touch

12     weapons again and couldn't contact other soldiers, those who had been --

13     who were known to have committed the offences that I described in my

14     statement.

15        Q.   Let's talk about sort of disciplinary measures then for a minute.

16     But let's leave these stories of these beatings aside for the time being.

17     Mr. Radinkovic, you know, the -- the death by suffocation of the

18     prisoners in the trucks who were coming from Sanski Most to Manjaca is

19     one of the charges that Dr. Karadzic is faced with.  All right?  And the

20     killing of a number of men in front of Manjaca camp on their arrival to

21     the camp from Omarska is another one of the charges he stand indicted

22     with, and you talked about both of these in your statement.  Those

23     happened, right?  You confirm that these people, 24 men from Sanski Most

24     and a number of men from Omarska were killed in the transportation to

25     Manjaca camp?

Page 45334

 1        A.   As for Sanski Most, it was possible to establish that during the

 2     transport they suffocated.  Nobody killed them.  They simply suffocated

 3     because they were brought there in trucks with closed tarpaulins, and

 4     there were very many of them on one truck, and they simply suffocated

 5     because there wasn't enough air.  These weren't killings that anyone

 6     committed.  These were simply the circumstances.  Somebody wasn't

 7     considerate enough to provide for enough air so that these people could

 8     arrive alive.

 9             As for transfers from Omarska, unfortunately this happened

10     immediately in front of the camp gate, and it is obvious that these acts

11     were committed by the police officers from the escort who had brought the

12     prisoners there.

13        Q.   Now, these people who were killed, you knew about it on both

14     occasions because you were on duty.  You reported those killings up your

15     chain of command, so your immediate superior, your camp commander, you

16     all knew about it?  In fact, you knew about these killings go on while

17     they happened; right?

18        A.   No, not at the same moment.  Because the office where I was, is

19     at some distance.  But the commander of security was informing me of what

20     was going on in front of the camp as far as Prijedor is concerned.  And

21     as for Sanski Most, I was informed because during the unloading of the

22     healthy people, it was established that among them there were some dead

23     people.  Military police officers were there, and in such cases we

24     insisted that the dead bodies would be taken back.  We didn't want any

25     dead bodies in front of our camp.

Page 45335

 1             And as for Prijedor, when I was informed that the killing of some

 2     individuals had begun, I even requested the help of the military police

 3     to prevent a possible -- I wanted to prevent that it grows out of

 4     proportion because the process had begun and I wanted to put an end to

 5     it.

 6        Q.   And with respect to these two incidents that we are talking

 7     about, it's correct, isn't it, that the camp commander, Colonel Popovic,

 8     and the corps command, General Talic, neither man took any measures

 9     against the people who were under his -- their command who stood by and

10     who watched while these things were going on, who failed to intervene?

11     That no specific measures were taken either by your camp commander or by

12     your corps commander?

13        A.   I must inform you that the camp was a military camp.  That is,

14     the military provided security.  And the civilian structures brought the

15     people.  The civilian police, that is.  Neither the camp commander nor

16     General Talic had any direct influence.  We equated them along the lines

17     of command, but in neither -- or, rather, in both cases it was the

18     civilian police that brought the people.  Not the military.  None of them

19     was in a position to issue orders.  We could only report up to the corps

20     command and request that police station so-and-so be informed or the

21     chief of police, whoever, so that the people be returned, the people who

22     were brought dead.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.  [In English]

24     Transcript.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 45336

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On page 30, from line 19 on, it was

 2     not recorded that the witness said, "I wanted to prevent what was

 3     happening because people had lost control."  "The perpetrators had lost

 4     control," it was not recorded.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we continue?  Yes, thank you.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:

 7        Q.   With respect --

 8        A.   If I may, I would like to add something to what the president has

 9     said.  For that purpose, I personally made a phone call and requested

10     urgent reinforcements because it was obvious that those people had the

11     intention of committing perhaps even worse crimes.  When a police platoon

12     arrived with an armoured vehicle, things had already stopped, and then

13     the process continued in line with the procedure, the way it should have

14     been.

15        Q.   So what you're saying now is you did something, you tried to do

16     something.  I was asking you about Colonel Popovic and General Talic.

17     These incidents happened at the gate of the Manjaca farm.  Manjaca was

18     heavily guarded inside and outside by civilian and military police.

19     There was a camp command structure inside.  There was a guard house

20     outside Manjaca from an elevated position where everything could be

21     observed.  There were armed guards all around the perimeter.  Nobody

22     intervened.  Right?  Apart from what you're telling us now, you did --

23     the staff at Manjaca camp stood by and let it happen?

24        A.   Look here, the personnel of Manjaca camp had responsibility for

25     security of the prisoners inside the camp but not outside it, and the

Page 45337

 1     guards were inside the camp, not outside.  None of the police officers

 2     was allowed to go out, no matter what was happening.  And once the police

 3     platoon had arrived with an armoured vehicle, it was clear that

 4     additional forces had been sent to prevent what could be prevented.  If

 5     General Talic assigned it or any one of the commanders, it doesn't

 6     matter, but the reaction was as fast as possible because at that moment

 7     everything stopped and things began unfolding in accordance with the

 8     procedure that was applied in the camp in line with the regulations.

 9        Q.   So you're saying that because of the regulations, camp staff had

10     no -- were not entitled, were not able, were not permitted to intervene

11     to prevent a crime unfolding in front of their eyes?  That's what you're

12     saying?

13        A.   Precisely.  According to the orders, the security around the camp

14     is provided by civilian police, and the military police has no right to

15     intervene anywhere outside.  The regulations were very strict:  Outside

16     security is provided by civilian police.

17             JUDGE MORRISON:  Perhaps you'll assist in this.  In the civil law

18     generally that was applicable at the time, did a citizen not have a duty

19     to intervene to prevent a criminal offence, whoever was committing it?

20     That's a common provision in many jurisdictions.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Was this question addressed to me?

22             MS. EDGERTON:

23        Q.   Indeed it was.

24        A.   Let me tell you:  In civil law, yes, but military law is

25     something different.  So that this soldier who was standing at the gate

Page 45338

 1     and who was watching it happen, perhaps 20 or 30 metres away, he had his

 2     military duty to guard perhaps 2.000 people at that moment, whereas those

 3     who were outside were still not considered to be prisoners of war until

 4     they reached the gates of the camp.  So there is a distinction.  Perhaps

 5     that man wanted to intervene but he couldn't because his post, his

 6     work-place was to stand guard there, not outside.

 7             JUDGE MORRISON:  And what about the military duty to protect

 8     civilians under the Geneva Conventions?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's what we did all the time in

10     the camp, and the results are obvious, if we set aside these individual

11     incidents.  We did our utmost to achieve the maximum protection for

12     civilians according to Geneva Conventions.  Perhaps we did not succeed

13     100 per cent.

14             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, I'm confused.  How does that square with

15     what you said a moment ago about if a man wanted to intervene but

16     couldn't because of his post?  Are you suggesting that his post had

17     primacy over the Geneva Conventions?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see, the soldier who was part

19     of the security detail inside the perimeter had the exclusive task to

20     guard the people - that is to say, prisoners of war - who are inside the

21     perimeter, not outside the perimeter.  That is a clarification I want to

22     make.

23             JUDGE MORRISON:  I'll leave it there, but it doesn't resolve my

24     confusion.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue.

Page 45339

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  I just see it's 10.34, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Is it time for morning break?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll have a break for 40 minutes.  We'll

 5     resume at 10 past 11.00.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 10.34 a.m.

 7                           [The witness stands down]

 8                           [The witness takes the stand]

 9                           --- On resuming at 11.13 a.m.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue, Ms. Edgerton.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Actually, Your Honour, that will conclude my

12     cross-examination.  Nothing further.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The briefest possible, just one or

16     two questions.

17                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Radinkovic, picking up on the question put

19     by Judge Morrison, can you tell us how many times killings happen in the

20     vicinity of the camp, in the vicinity of that guard?

21        A.   Mr. President, that happened only once when POWs from Prijedor

22     were brought.  It happened that once and never again.

23        Q.   Thank you.  What was the balance of power between the military

24     police guarding the camp and those outside?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

Page 45340

 1             Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  I'm not sure if that's an appropriate question

 3     arising from the cross-examination.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  As far as duty to protect is concerned, I think

 5     there is --

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  In the -- absolutely.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  A jurisdictional matter may be raised.

 8             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic -- or can you answer the question?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wanted to ask, was he able to

10     intervene without the decision or order from his own superior.

11             JUDGE KWON:  No, that's --

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's one question.  And the other

13     question is about the balance of power.

14             JUDGE KWON:  That's a leading question.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Under what circumstances would a guard from the military police

17     be able to intervene against the civilian police when that happened?

18        A.   Only when the civilian police or any other unit attacked the

19     camp, physically, militarily.

20        Q.   One general question, Mr. Radinkovic.  What do you know talk

21     about conduct of the first superiors vis-à-vis identified perpetrators in

22     your camp.  Did they let it pass or did they react and how?

23        A.   The commanders of security, as they were known, did not allow

24     physical violence against the prisoners, but of course they could not

25     follow every policeman 24/7 or prevent any activity.  So our security

Page 45341

 1     commanders often intervened without any orders from us.

 2        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Radinkovic, for coming here and giving evidence.

 3        A.   Thank you.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  That concludes your evidence, Mr. Radinkovic.  On

 5     behalf of the Chamber, I thank you for your coming to The Hague to give

 6     it.  Now you are free to go.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.  Thank you very

 8     much.

 9                           [The witness withdrew]

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

12             MR. TIEGER:  Good morning, Mr. President.  I was wondering if I

13     could raise one matter in private session very briefly.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, shall we go into private session.

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 45342

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  We'll bring in the next witness.  I take

24     it this will be the last witness for the year.

25             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

Page 45343

 1             THE ACCUSED:  And I suppose that the Defence will be ready to

 2     work until 4.00 as yesterday if it is for the sake of completing.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Let's see how it goes.  The parties prefer to do

 4     without tomorrow's hearing.  That's the position.  We'll see how it goes.

 5                           [The witness entered court]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness make the solemn declaration.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 8     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 9                           WITNESS:  SIMO MISKOVIC

10                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Miskovic.  Please be seated and make

12     yourself comfortable.

13             Yes, please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

14                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Miskovic.

16        A.   Good morning, Mr. President.  I would like to take this

17     opportunity to greet the Trial Chamber and the Prosecution as well, not

18     only Mr. President.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please just leave a pause between questions

20     and answers so that everything is recorded on the LiveNote, because we

21     speak the same language.

22             Have you given a statement to my Defence team?

23        A.   Yes.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D49034 is the document I would

25     like shown to the witness.

Page 45344

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Could you please look at the monitor.  Please leave that pause

 3     that I mentioned.

 4        A.   I can't see very well.  Could this be made larger?

 5        Q.   Is this the first page of your statement?

 6        A.   I can't see much --

 7             JUDGE KWON: [Overlapping speakers] ...

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, it is.  Yes, I'm

 9     comparing them now.  Yes.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Have you read and signed this statement?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Just don't start answering immediately.  Leave one

14     seconds' pause.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could you we now show the witness

16     the last page for him to identify his signature.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Is this your signature?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Does this statement reflect faithfully what you've

21     said to the Defence team?  Are there any inaccuracies that you would like

22     to correct?

23        A.   There is one little thing, in fact, just a few errors that I

24     would like to point out.

25        Q.   Which paragraph?

Page 45345

 1        A.   Give me a moment, please.  Paragraph 10, last line, right after

 2     "municipal boards," it should say "and deputies."

 3        Q.   I found it.  "As far as I remember, the official suggestion of

 4     the leadership of the party was" --

 5        A.   For the presidents of the Municipal Boards of the party as well

 6     the deputies should not be chairman or president of the Crisis Staff.

 7        Q.   Are there anymore?

 8        A.   Yes.  Paragraph 12.  It says that my municipality Prijedor was

 9     free and independent in its work from the republic organs at Pale.  This

10     a mistake, I think.  The way it is phrased, you could understand that we

11     are some renegade municipality working on its own.  What I actually said

12     or meant was that, in a certain period, we were unable to contact and

13     communicate the leadership of the party, because there were no land-lines

14     in one period and in another period telephone communications were down,

15     too.  So if it's understood to mean that, then it's fine.

16        Q.   "I can also confirm that my municipality Prijedor ..."

17        A.   In the periods when there were no communications across land with

18     the leadership of the party, it was physically impossible to reach them,

19     and in the periods when telecommunications were down, we had to make our

20     own decisions as far as the party is concerned.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22        A.   That's it.  And there are some typos.

23        Q.   Taking into account these corrections you've just made, does this

24     statement contain all that you have said to the Defence?

25        A.   Yes, it does, with these corrections.

Page 45346

 1        Q.   If I were to put to you the same questions today, would your

 2     answers be essentially the same as in the statement?

 3        A.   My answers would be the same today as they were on the earlier

 4     occasions when I gave evidence because the truth is only one.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tender this statement under

 6     Rule 92 ter.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 8             Mr. Robinson, could you assist us with regard to the associated

 9     exhibits.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  We are asking that four

11     documents be admitted as associated exhibits.  All of them have been on

12     our 65 ter list.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Some of them were already admitted?

14             MR. ROBINSON:  I checked this morning and none of them have been

15     admitted.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Any objection, Ms. Gustafson?

17             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Good morning, Your Honours.  No, no objections.

18             JUDGE KWON:  We'll admit them all.  Shall we assign numbers for

19     them.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  The statement receives Exhibit Number D4206.  The

21     65 ter number 1D26372 receives Exhibit Number D4207.  The 65 ter number

22     13972 receives Exhibit Number D4208.  The 65 ter number 1D25930 receives

23     Exhibit Number D4209, and the 65 ter number 1D25938 receives

24     Exhibit Number D4210, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

Page 45347

 1             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I will now read in

 3     English a short summary of Mr. Simo Miskovic's statement.

 4             [In English] Simo Miskovic was the president of the SDS in

 5     Prijedor from 1991.  Before he became the president of the SDS, he was in

 6     command of the reserve police station Prijedor 2.

 7             The SDS was a democratic party and decisions were taken at the

 8     Main Board sessions when the agenda was discussed and decisions were

 9     adopted and rejected by majority vote.  There were conflicts between

10     party policy and some representatives of the government at the municipal

11     level, which is why these representatives were dismissed from their

12     position and others were appointed to take their places.  The basic

13     policy adopted by the Municipal Board in Prijedor was presented by

14     Mr. Miskovic on October the 5th, 1992.  In his programme, Mr. Miskovic

15     distanced himself and the party from all negative conduct in Prijedor

16     municipality and requested that all responsible organs, each in its

17     domain, take measures to prevent illegal actions in any segment and bring

18     to the trial persons who committed them.  When the SDS representatives in

19     Prijedor became disobedient, Mr. Miskovic agreed with Dr. Karadzic to

20     dismiss them, but part of the party leadership and the authorities

21     refused to align with this decision.  For this reason, Mr. Miskovic

22     resigned and withdrew from the leadership of the party on

23     16th of August, 1993.

24             Simo Miskovic was not aware of any plans to permanently remove

25     Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Croats from areas of BH to which the Bosnian

Page 45348

 1     Serbs laid claim, through genocide, persecution, extermination, murder,

 2     deportation, and inhumane acts.  He never heard such things in the

 3     Prijedor Municipal Board or at the sessions of the Main Board at the

 4     republican level.  In Prijedor municipality, Mr. Miskovic contacted a

 5     large number of non-Serbs in order to find a peaceful resolution of the

 6     tensions in the area, and he proposed to the president of the SDA,

 7     Mirza Mujadzic, to visit together those places where Serbs and Muslims

 8     were concentrated, in order to reduce the tensions.  For unknown reasons,

 9     Mr. Mujadzic refused.

10             Mr. Miskovic was present at the meeting held at the Holiday Inn

11     hotel on 14th of February, 1992.  During this meeting, the instruction on

12     organisation and work of the organs of the Serbian people in BiH in

13     extraordinary circumstances were handed to participants.  I suppose -- I

14     apologise, I suppose it must be some mistake.  It didn't happen

15     14th February, but we'll clarify it.

16             The reason for this was in case of any danger to the survival of

17     the Serbian people for the SDS representatives to take measures to

18     prevent such attempts at a new slaughter.

19             The local authorities in Prijedor municipality were free and

20     independent of the republican organs in Pale, and it was clarified in

21     what terms.  The telephone lines had mostly been disrupted, and so for

22     most part it was not possible the make contacts by telephone, and for

23     that very reason, instructions from Pale could not be received.  The

24     crisis in Prijedor municipality was a consequence of the inability to

25     reach an agreement between the representatives of the SDS, SDA, and HDZ

Page 45349

 1     political parties.  A first meeting was held between the representatives

 2     of the three parties at which they agreed on the division of power in

 3     50 per cent of the cases and scheduled another meeting for the next day

 4     to divide other 50 per cent of power.  The next day, the SDA

 5     representatives did not show up, and after that, they no longer invested

 6     any effort into solving this problem.

 7             In Prijedor, there were no incidents on ethnic ground, because

 8     all three sides respected the agreement and acted accordingly, putting up

 9     check-points in settlement of ethnic concentrations.  In this context,

10     the three peoples kept in regular contact, talked, and maintained this

11     situation.

12             The first incident that took place was a murder of the reserve

13     police officer Radenko Dzapa on 1st of May, 1992, then the killing and

14     wounding of soldiers who were returning from the battle-field on

15     Hambarine hill by Muslim paramilitary formation on 22nd of May, 1992, and

16     the barricading of the Prijedor-Banja Luka main road by Muslim

17     extremists.

18             The inability to divide power created tensions among the three

19     peoples because government could not function.  In order to prevent

20     incontrollable conflicts, the Serbs took over power in Prijedor on

21     30th of April, 1992.  The culmination of the confrontations came after

22     the attack on the town of Prijedor by Muslims and Croatian formations on

23     30th of May, 1992.  The attack resulted in a large number of casualties

24     among members of the Serbian people.

25             And that is summary, and I have just to clarify one thing.

Page 45350

 1             [Interpretation] Excellencies, I believe that the date is wrong

 2     in the summary, but in the statement in paragraph 10 the date of that

 3     session at the Holiday Inn is correct, the 19th of December.  So I don't

 4     have to ask the witness anything about that --

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's been a long time, hasn't it?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  It's duly noted.  And you have no question, no

 7     further questions, Mr. Karadzic?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, no.  I'm saving time for the

 9     redirect.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

11             Mr. Miskovic, as you have noted, your evidence in chief in this

12     case has been admitted in writing, that is, through your written

13     statement.  Now you'll be cross-examined by the representative of the

14     Office of the Prosecutor.

15             Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

16             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honours.

17                           Cross-examination by Ms. Gustafson:

18        Q.   And good morning, Mr. Miskovic.

19        A.   Good morning.

20             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If I could have P2571, please.

21        Q.   Now, Mr. Miskovic, in your statement you've made comments about

22     the way the SDS party functioned and the nature of Dr. Karadzic's

23     leadership; in particular, at paragraph 4 you state that the SDS was a

24     democratic party.  And in various places, you speak about democratic

25     decision-making in the party.  And I'd just like to address some of those

Page 45351

 1     comments you make with a concrete example.

 2             Now on the screen in front of you is a transcript of an

 3     intercepted conversation on the 10th of September, 1991, involving

 4     Dr. Karadzic, Mr. Neskovic, yourself, and Mr. Srdic.  You've seen this

 5     intercept several times before, so I'm just going to go to a few extracts

 6     and ask you to confirm some of the things you've said before about it.

 7             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could first go to page 3 of the English and

 8     page 2 in the B/C/S.

 9        Q.   And extract that I'd like you to look at starts at about halfway

10     down the page in the B/C/S and it's near the top in the English.  It's

11     where Mr. Neskovic says:

12             "Because they do not recognise any authority here, especially if

13     you mention Sarajevo."

14             And Dr. Karadzic says:

15             "Let them fuck their mothers, let them make their own party, let

16     them resign.  Whoever refuses to obey Sarajevo should resign.  Write

17     papers for them tomorrow and say:  This is a party which has its top and

18     its bottom, and nobody will fuck about under our name."

19             And when Dr. Karadzic speaks again, he says:

20             "And please tell them this, please, whoever won't adhere to the

21     policies of the party and implement the policies of the party, but

22     adheres to their own private policies ..."

23             And Neskovic says:

24             "Yes."

25             And Dr. Karadzic says:

Page 45352

 1             "... let them sign here, let them leave their place in the

 2     municipality, and we will put new people there.  They can set up their

 3     own party but not under this name."

 4             Now basically what Dr. Karadzic is saying here is that party

 5     members must follow party policies or leave the party; right?

 6        A.   This conversation took place before I came to head the party.

 7     This is the moment when I agreed after the fourth attempt that was made

 8     by certain representatives of the municipal organisation of the Serb

 9     democratic party to persuade me to accept to be at the helm of the party,

10     because from the moment --

11        Q.   Mr. Miskovic, I'm sorry --

12        A.   -- when it was founded in the territory of the municipality of

13     Prijedor --

14        Q.   I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I asked a very specific question.

15        A.   No problem.

16        Q.   We will go to other passages of this intercept.  If I could ask

17     you --

18        A.   Please go ahead.

19        Q.   If I could ask you to please just answer the specific question

20     that I just ask, which is:  In the passage that I just read out to,

21     Dr. Karadzic is stating that party members must follow party policies or

22     leave the party; right?

23        A.   On the basis of what was read out to me, it seems that it is what

24     was said to Neskovic.  It was Neskovic who was told all of that.  Not me.

25     This is a conversation between Neskovic, who was a representative of the

Page 45353

 1     Main Board, who came to take care of the situation in the party before I

 2     came in.  This is a conversation -- well, Srdjo Srdic, a member of

 3     parliament of the Serb Democratic Party, it's his department, and he was

 4     supposed to be replaced, and I was supposed to come to the helm.  So this

 5     is a conversation between Neskovic and them.  I was on the sidelines, if

 6     you will, and it was only towards the end that I communicated with

 7     Mr. Karadzic.  So the conversation is between Neskovic, the member of the

 8     Main Board who was entrusted by the Main Board with this task of coming

 9     to the Prijedor to clarify the situation and to elect a new leadership of

10     the party.  So it's not between me And President Karadzic as far as I can

11     understand this.

12        Q.   Well, let me remind you what you said before about this passage

13     when you testified at this Tribunal.

14             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If I could have 65 ter 25674.

15        Q.   In the Stanisic -- and page 25 of that exhibit.  In the Stanisic

16     and Zupljanin case, Mr. Miskovic, you were asked:

17             "And Karadzic then continues and says:

18             "'Whoever refuses to obey Sarajevo should resign.  Write papers

19     for them tomorrow and say this is a party which has its top and bottom

20     and nobody will fuck about -- fuck under our name -- fuck about under our

21     name.'"

22             And you say:

23             "Yes."

24             And you were asked:

25             "What do you think he meant by that?"

Page 45354

 1             And you answer:

 2             "I really don't know.  You would have to ask him.  As a layman, I

 3     would say that he is talking about the party policies and that everybody

 4     has to subscribe to those.  Either you fall in or you leave, and that's

 5     the case all over the world.  You can't be against the party and be a

 6     member of it."

 7             Now that's what you said about the passage of this intercept when

 8     you testified in the Stanisic and Zupljanin case; right?

 9        A.   As for what you read out just now, I fully stand by that.  That

10     is my statement and I confirm that just now.  I just reacted to something

11     else a moment ago.  This conversation that you proffered, it's a

12     conversation between Neskovic and President Karadzic, and what you are

13     referring to now it's a conversation between myself and

14     President Karadzic and that happened afterwards.  And there is no denying

15     that.  And I believe that in all political parties in the world there is

16     hierarchy, and the policy of the party has to be implemented.  And if one

17     doesn't want to implement that policy, then they have to join a different

18     party.  So there has to be order, there has to be hierarchy, and it has

19     to be established that way.  And primarily, the decisions of the

20     Main Board, depending on how the party is organised.  I mean, these

21     bodies of political organisation.  That is the basic thing.  Who doesn't

22     accept that?  Well, then, you see often you have people who switch

23     parties, who go from one party on another.  They change their opinions

24     and then they --

25        Q.   Mr. Miskovic --

Page 45355

 1        A.   -- join another party --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

 3     be asked to speak slower.

 4             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 5        Q.   First of all, you've been asked to speak more slowly.  Secondly,

 6     I am asking very specific questions and your answers are straying away

 7     from them and my time is very limited.

 8             Mr. Miskovic, the testimony I just read out to you was your

 9     comment on the very same conversation between Mr. Neskovic and

10     Mr. Karadzic that you looked at.  Do you accept that?

11        A.   Well, of course that's the way it was.  No denying that.

12        Q.   Okay.

13             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go back to P2571 to page 4 of the

14     English and page 3 of the B/C/S.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now why do I not see this in

16     Serbian?  I don't.  I don't see it.

17             MS. GUSTAFSON:

18        Q.   If you could just wait for a moment, Mr. Miskovic, the transcript

19     will appear.  And this is towards the bottom of the page in the English

20     and also in the B/C/S, and this is part of the --

21        A.   I see it now, yes.

22        Q.   -- towards the bottom of the page where you and Dr. Karadzic are

23     speaking.  And Dr. Karadzic says to you:

24             "Good evening.  Please tell me, was it the municipal assemblymen

25     club that called the Assembly meeting tomorrow?"

Page 45356

 1             And you say:

 2             "Yes."

 3             And Dr. Karadzic says:

 4             "They don't have that prerogative, the motherfuckers."

 5             And you say:

 6             "Yes, probably the Main Board.  They know -- I am not a member of

 7     the Main Board.  The Main Board probably gave them carte blanche."

 8             And Karadzic says:

 9             "They cannot give them carte blanche.  They are implementing the

10     policies of the party, not the other way around."

11             Now, when you testified previously about this passage, you

12     explained that --

13             THE ACCUSED:  I am not sure we have right Serbian page.

14             MS. GUSTAFSON:  It should be page 3.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't understand any of this.

16             THE ACCUSED:  As a matter fact, this is not the same.  This is

17     not proper document at all.

18             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Well, it's correct in the English.  It should be

19     page 3 in the B/C/S.

20             MR. ROBINSON:  If you look at the B/C/S, the speakers are

21     different.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Yeah.  I think that the document is incorrect in

23     the B/C/S.  I'm not -- oh, and -- yeah, I don't know what that is.

24             JUDGE KWON:  But in my e-court, I see Neskovic and Karadzic.

25             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Yes, mine as well.

Page 45357

 1        Q.   Now, Mr. Miskovic, this is towards the bottom of the page, you

 2     and Dr. Karadzic speaking, where you say to Dr. Karadzic:

 3             "The Main Board probably gave them carte blanche."

 4             And he says:

 5             "They cannot give them carte blanche.  They are implementing the

 6     policies of the party, not the other way around."

 7             And when you testified previously about this passage, you

 8     explained that Dr. Karadzic was stating here that:

 9             "The SDS members and the Municipal Assembly are there to further

10     party policies, and if they want to pursue other policies they have to

11     change their party membership."

12             That's a correct understanding of your view of this passage;

13     right?

14        A.   Yes, yes.

15             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could go to page 12 of the English and

16     page 9 of the B/C/S.

17             This is where Dr. Karadzic speaks with Mr. Srdic who was then the

18     municipal party president.  This is near the very top in the B/C/S and a

19     about a third of the way down in the English.

20        Q.   And Dr. Karadzic says to Mr. Srdic:

21             "Srdja, please, what you just said is very bad.  You are saying

22     that you are going around and that you are a deserving man.  We all know

23     how deserving you are, but it's not working that way any longer, Srdja.

24     You see, it's not working.  The party is stuck.  It's not working.  You

25     have to yield and let someone finish it."

Page 45358

 1             Now, what Dr. Karadzic is telling Mr. Srdic here is that he has

 2     to yield his position as municipal SDS president and let someone else

 3     take over.  And you indeed became SDS president the next day and

 4     Mr. Srdic did not resist that change; correct?

 5        A.   Well, yes, that's correct.  I said at the very outset.  All of

 6     this is happening in Mr. Srdic's apartment.  He was the president of the

 7     party and also a member of a parliament too.  He was an elderly man and

 8     younger people were against him.  There was confrontation --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not understand the

10     second sentence.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Then this person had some authority

12     in Prijedor.  So then they came to pick me up --

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Speed, speed.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Miskovic, you are speaking too fast.  So could

15     you repeat from where you said there was confrontation?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Before I came to the helm of the

17     party, in the party there were quite a few problems.  The first president

18     was Milakovic, Milorad, who behaved almost like a quack.  So Srdja Srdic

19     took over the party.  He was a member of the party at the time on behalf

20     of the Serb Democratic Party.

21             Now this transcript, the conversation that has taken place there,

22     it is in Srdja Srdic's apartment.  I am present as the candidate for the

23     future president, then member of the Main Board, Radomir Neskovic, and

24     Srdja Srdic.  His wife was there too, but she did not take part of this

25     conversation, I mean.  From the transcript, one can see that there is

Page 45359

 1     communication between the president of the party, Mr. Karadzic, and

 2     Srdja Srdic, as president of the municipal organisation of the Serb

 3     Democratic Party, and Neskovic, as a representative of the Main Board.  I

 4     mean, one can see that it is geared towards the following:  That there

 5     are problems in the party and that they have to be overcome through a new

 6     leadership.  That is why Mr. Neskovic came in the first place.

 7             However, Srdja Srdic was hurt.  He was saying:  Well, I am not a

 8     ruin to be destroyed all together.  However, after these conversations

 9     that were conducted with President Karadzic - and that is what is

10     contained in this transcript - he finally understood that nobody was

11     trying to destroy him or topple him.  Rather, that in order to

12     consolidate the party, it was necessary for a new man to be brought in

13     who would have better communication with the membership of the party,

14     since the majority were young people.  And at that time, I was relatively

15     young too.  I was about 46 or 47.

16             MS. GUSTAFSON:

17        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Miskovic.  I think your position is clear.

18             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to page 6 of the English and

19     page 4 --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sorry, I do apologise.  May I?  May

21     I just ask you to remind me to speak more slowly, because it is my nature

22     to speak very fast and I tend to forget that.

23             MS. GUSTAFSON:

24        Q.   Now on this page, Mr. Miskovic, right at the bottom of the page

25     in the B/C/S and towards the top in the English, again, this is you and

Page 45360

 1     Dr. Karadzic speaking.  And Dr. Karadzic is saying that:

 2             "The assemblymen should be fair towards the party which brought

 3     them to power.  You do this and don't -- there will be no conflicts, do

 4     it as a good housekeeper.  There is no reason?"

 5             And then you state:

 6             "I wouldn't.  You can ... I wouldn't do it because of you and the

 7     party, and since you are heading the party, because I know that it's a

 8     mess here, you have to figure everything out, and you have not only

 9     Prijedor, but the entire Bosnia and Herzegovina, and loads of information

10     every day, every month, from the elections to other things."

11             Now you have stated previously that what you're saying here to

12     Dr. Karadzic is that when you took over as party president, you would

13     follow the policies of the SDS Main Board; that's correct, isn't it?

14        A.   That is correct.  I wouldn't have accepted to lead the party if I

15     were to pursue the policy of some other party.

16             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could go to 65 ter 25675, page 22 in

17     the English and page 32 -- sorry, 21 of the English and page 31 in the

18     B/C/S.

19        Q.   And the document that will be coming up, just to orient you,

20     Mr. Miskovic, is transcript of your interview with the OTP in 2009.  And

21     this is right around the middle of the page in the B/C/S and towards the

22     bottom of the page in the English, and you're discussing with the OTP

23     this same intercept we've been looking at.  And in fact, this same

24     passage.  And you're asked:

25             "I've got one question, Mr. Miskovic.  You say 'since you are

Page 45361

 1     heading the party,' was that your view that as head of the SDS he had the

 2     right to give instructions about what should happen?"

 3             And you say:

 4             "He was -- the Main Board of the SDS made decisions and he was

 5     the one representing the Main Board who was making the politics and the

 6     party on all levels was to conduct the policies, otherwise it would have

 7     been chaos.  There was an Assembly and there was a Main Board.  Later on,

 8     there was an Executive Board.  I think Neskovic was on this

 9     Executive Board from 1993 or far away from it.  I can't recall the little

10     details right now."

11             And on the next page of the English you're asked:

12             "I understand that it's a long time ago, but just so I understand

13     that answer, the Main Board made the policies.  He was the representative

14     of the Main Board as leader of the SDS."

15             And if we turn the page in the B/C/S, you answer:

16             "Yes, he was the first.  Like in every party, the main body makes

17     decisions.  They confront their opinions in the main body, and he's

18     controlling of the implementing of the decision."

19             Now that accurately -- that passage I read out accurately

20     summarised your understanding of Dr. Karadzic's authority within the SDS

21     party; correct?

22        A.   Well, there is nothing there that is to be challenged.  Any party

23     has its bodies, and the president of the party only pursues the policy

24     that is agreed upon by these bodies of the party, and he is responsible

25     for the implementation of that policy.  As far as I know, that is the

Page 45362

 1     characteristic of all political parties all over the world.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Now I'd like to ask you about the Variant A and B

 3     instructions.  At paragraph 10, your statement indicates that you were

 4     asked whether you had information about the meeting at the Holiday Inn in

 5     Sarajevo on 19 December 1991, at which the Variant A and B instructions

 6     were distributed.  And you confirmed in your statement that you attended

 7     this meeting.

 8             The Chamber has received evidence that, in fact, this meeting

 9     took place on the 20th of December, 1991.  An example would be P5792.  Do

10     you agree, Mr. Miskovic, that this meeting where the Variant A and B

11     instructions were distributed could well have taken place on the

12     20th of December, 1991?

13        A.   I said even before, and I must repeat it now, that I do not

14     remember the date.  I do remember, though, a nice scene.  When we

15     finished, in the lobby of the Holiday Inn, I met Mirza Mujadzic, the

16     president of the SDA party at Prijedor, and he was boasting to me of

17     getting a new Golf car.

18        Q.   Mr. Miskovic, I'm very sorry to interrupt you, but my time is it

19     very limited and I'm just asking --

20        A.   No problem.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Now, again I'd like to confirm some things you said

22     before about these instructions.  Now, that meeting you attended in

23     December 1991 where these instructions where distributed, that meeting

24     was presided over by Dr. Karadzic and was attended by all municipal party

25     presidents and National Assembly deputies; right?

Page 45363

 1        A.   I think so.  I know that I attended, and my digression was only

 2     to -- meant to show how relaxed the atmosphere was still between us,

 3     that's why I provided that example.  But okay.

 4        Q.   What you said in the Stanisic and Zupljanin case, and this is at

 5     page 39 in e-court of your -- of the transcript, was:

 6             "All party presidents were present at the meeting, as well as

 7     deputies in the National Assembly.  The paper was distributed, and we

 8     were asked to act accordingly and to convey the instructions to the

 9     Municipal Boards and inform them about the existence of the two

10     variants."

11             Now that accurately reflects who was present and what happened at

12     that meeting; correct?

13        A.   I can only confirm that I attended that meeting, that I received

14     that document, that paper, and that I acquainted the Municipal Board with

15     its contents.  It was my policy to inform the Municipal Board of

16     everything, and that's how it was throughout the time I was at the helm

17     of that board.

18             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I tender the page from which I just read out.

19     It's page 39 of 65 ter 25674.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we upload the page?

21             MS. GUSTAFSON:  65 ter 25674, page 39.  And it's the first full

22     answer on that page, where it says:  "Received those at the meeting at

23     Sarajevo ..."

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is in English here.

25             MS. GUSTAFSON:

Page 45364

 1        Q.   Mr. Miskovic, just so you know, this is the passage I read out to

 2     you so it was translated to you in B/C/S.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  You were asked from whom you did receive these

 4     instructions and your answer:

 5             "Received those at a meeting in Sarajevo -- or, rather, in Pale,

 6     a meeting that we attended, but I can't be sure of the exact location.

 7     All party presidents were present at the meeting, as well as deputies in

 8     the National Assembly.  The paper was distributed, and we were asked to

 9     act accordingly and to convey the instructions to the Municipal Boards

10     and inform them about the existence of the two variants."

11             Do you stand by that answer you gave in Stanisic and Zupljanin

12     case?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll admit this page.  Have we admitted it

15     already?  Not yet.

16             MS. GUSTAFSON:  No.

17             JUDGE KWON:  So we'll admit this page.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  It receives Exhibit Number P6587, Your Honours.

19             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And while we have this exhibit up, if we could go

20     to page 60.

21        Q.   And again, Mr. Miskovic, this is only in English.  So I will read

22     it to you.  This is at the top of the page.  You say:

23             "Let me inform the Chamber so that the Chamber knows.  The

24     establishment of the Serbian Assembly was in case that they were supposed

25     to take over power, in case we were supposed to secede, we had to have

Page 45365

 1     bodies that functioned already.  They were not functioning.  The joint

 2     bodies were still functioning so this was just the establishment of the

 3     Assembly according to Variant B and the Serbian presidents, and Serbian

 4     bodies were established and elected in case there was a cessation of the

 5     Serbian territories from the rest of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  We always

 6     wanted to have authorities in place and that's how they had been created

 7     and that's how they were composed of, from the cadre that has just been

 8     shown.  The joint government still functioning properly at the time in

 9     question."

10             Now that accurately describes the creation of the Serbian

11     Municipal Assembly in Prijedor pursuant to Variant B and the purpose of

12     that Variant A and B document in your view; correct?

13        A.   I don't know if you have presented this to the Chamber

14     accurately.  I will repeat.  It is true that on the 7th of January, 1992,

15     I believe, we established a Serbian Assembly which existed on paper but

16     did not function.  The basic reason for its establishment was the

17     following:  In case of danger to the Serbs in the Prijedor municipality,

18     and there were many indications that that might happen because it was not

19     possible to divide power in the municipality, and that's situation had

20     begun before I arrived.  And therefore this shadow Assembly, if you will,

21     was established, and after a month, an Executive Board was set up too.

22     The members of the party and the members of the government had already

23     been elected at local elections.  Stakic was the president, only through

24     his decision he was appointed president, conditionally speaking.  And

25     then there was Milan Kovacevic, who was president of the Executive Board

Page 45366

 1     remained in that position and so on.  That's the essence.  The essence is

 2     not that Bosnia and Herzegovina could secede as you said.  This was a

 3     local issue.

 4             In the territory of the Prijedor municipality, in this way a

 5     Serbian municipality was established, and we didn't obstruct the two

 6     other ethnicities to establish their own municipalities where they

 7     constitute the majority of the population.  In this way, we thought that

 8     we could avoid confrontation and conflict in that area.

 9             So this didn't have to do with Bosnia-Herzegovina as a whole but

10     is limited to the Prijedor municipality, where the Serbs were the

11     majority.  And we still haven't discussed the reasons for taking power,

12     but I believe the time will come for us to do so.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In line 25 of page 60 and in the

16     following lines, it was not recorded that the witnesses said: "In the

17     territory of Prijedor municipality to establish a Serbian municipality

18     and the Serbian territories."

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the areas where the Serbs were

20     the majority.

21             MS. GUSTAFSON:

22        Q.   Mr. Miskovic, what you said in your previous testimony was that

23     purpose of Variant A and B document was to establish Serbian bodies in

24     the event there was a cessation of Serbian territories from the rest of

25     Bosnia and Herzegovina.  That was the purpose of the Variant A and B

Page 45367

 1     instructions; right?

 2        A.   I don't know.  But I know that what I have just said is not in

 3     contradiction to what I said earlier.  This is the truth.  I doubt that

 4     it was different earlier, because we could not exert influence on

 5     politics at BH level.  We were at the local level and we -- all our

 6     activities were also local.  I'm talking about the Prijedor municipality

 7     and, consequently, the Serbian municipality of Prijedor; that is, the

 8     area where the Serbs were the majority.  That's what I meant.  And this

 9     is also the context in which we have to understand this cessation, as far

10     as I understood.

11             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I tender this page as well, please, to be added

12     to P6587.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll add that page.

14             MS. GUSTAFSON:

15        Q.   Now, Mr. Miskovic, you attended in February of 1992 an extended

16     session of the SDS Main Board in Sarajevo where Dr. Karadzic activated

17     stage 2 of the Variant A and B instructions, and you passed on that

18     instruction from Dr. Karadzic to the Prijedor Municipal Board; right?

19        A.   No, I don't remember that.  When I received the paper with

20     Variants A and B at the Holiday Inn, after returning to Prijedor I

21     acquainted the members of the Municipal Board with that paper.  This can

22     be found in the minutes somewhere.

23        Q.   Mr. Miskovic --

24        A.   All documents were seized when IFOR --

25        Q.   I'm sorry, I'm going to interrupt you again because now you're

Page 45368

 1     going back to December of 1991.  You said you don't remember.  I'm going

 2     to show you the documents.

 3             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to P5516, please.

 4        Q.   These are the minutes of the SDS Prijedor Municipal Board of the

 5     17th of February, 1992.  And you can see right after the number -- the

 6     word "agenda" and there is a number 1 which says:

 7             "Briefing on the meeting of the Main Board and the Serbian

 8     Assembly of BH."

 9             And then it says that:

10             "After adopting the agenda, Simo Miskovic, the president of the

11     SDS Municipal Board, gave a briefing on the meeting held in Sarajevo."

12             And the first thing you're recorded as saying is that

13     Mr. Karadzic, President of SDS BH, was the main speaker.

14             "It is an act of cessation of the BH, on the part of the SDA.  In

15     that respect, we are forced to create national communities on ethnic

16     territories."

17             And if we could move down in the English and go to the next page

18     in the B/C/S, about three or four lines in the B/C/S there is an asterisk

19     and you're recorded as stating:

20             "Serbs shall not participate in any way in the referendum

21     conducted by the SDA.  In view of that, it is necessary to activate the

22     second stage of the position stated by the SDS BH Main Board."

23             Now, these minutes reflect you transmitting Dr. Karadzic's

24     instructions not to participate in the referendum and to implement the

25     second stage of the Variant A and B instructions; right?

Page 45369

 1        A.   My request to you would be if we could just return to this

 2     document and reread it.  It was a long time ago.  I'm not so familiar

 3     with the context.  If I could just once more.

 4             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go back to page 1 in the B/C/S.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Would you please repeat?

 6             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 7        Q.   My question was:  These minutes reflect you transmitting to the

 8     Municipal Board Dr. Karadzic's instructions, both the instruction not to

 9     participate in the referendum and the instruction to implement the second

10     stage of the Variant A and B instructions; right?

11        A.   I don't know that at that meeting or at any meeting, for that

12     matter, although I may have forgotten, that the main -- that at the

13     Main Board session was -- there were ever suggestions to act in

14     accordance with Variants A or B.  Only in the event of danger to the

15     Serbian people in any given area.  That is true, for sure.  But I don't

16     remember all directives.  In general, I remember that it was this way.

17     If this is an original and if this was discussed there -- does this bear

18     my signature, by the way?

19        Q.   Mr. Miskovic, maybe we can shortcut it by -- I can put what you

20     said previously about this.

21             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to 65 ter 25674 again, please, at

22     page 48.

23        Q.   And since it's only in English, I'll begin reading it while it's

24     coming up.  And you're being asked about these same minutes I just showed

25     you and you're asked:

Page 45370

 1             "The minutes that we're looking at, sir, say or report that it's

 2     necessary to activate the second stage of the position stated by the

 3     SDS BH Main Board; namely, Variant A and B at this time.  Do you accept

 4     that at this meeting --"

 5             And you answer:

 6             "Variant B, yes."

 7             And you're asked:

 8             "Do you accept that at this board meeting the conclusion was made

 9     to activate the second stage of Variant B by the Prijedor Municipal

10     Board?"

11             And this is at the bottom of the page, you say:

12             "You mean, was that a decision by the Municipal Board at the

13     time," over to the next page, "that work should be done on the activities

14     of Variant B?  Is that what you mean?  If that's what you mean, then yes,

15     preparations."

16             Now it's correct, as you stated in your previous testimony, that

17     at the Prijedor Municipal Board meeting, the minutes of which we just

18     looked at, the decision was taken to begin activating the stage 2 of the

19     Variant A and B instructions; correct?

20        A.   I have just confirmed that the Municipal Board decided about

21     that.  I don't remember that the Main Board or the leadership of the

22     party decided about that; whereas the Municipal Board, yes, it did decide

23     about that and a Serbian Assembly and an Executive Board were

24     established.  Both shadow bodies.

25             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If I could have P12, please.  Page 5 of the

Page 45371

 1     English and page 4 of the B/C/S.

 2        Q.   Now, Mr. Miskovic, this is a recording of the

 3     14th of February, 1992, extended session of the Main and

 4     Executive Boards.  Right at the bottom of page 5 in the English, and near

 5     the middle of the page 4 in the B/C/S, and this is all Dr. Karadzic

 6     speaking, he says:

 7             "That is, if you remember, who keeps that in mind, or maybe not

 8     on his person, a stage number 2.  There is, remember," and then the next

 9     page in the English, "you know what I am talking about.  We know, yes,

10     that is therefore the stage number 2, the second stage, in smaller or

11     bigger variations, but you have to implement that slowly now, to have

12     absolute control who is travelling along your roads, what they are

13     transporting, for which purposes.  That's the way it must be."

14             Now, Mr. Miskovic, this is Dr. Karadzic's first reference at this

15     meeting to -- where he instructs municipal representatives to activate

16     stage 2 of the Variant A and B document; right?

17        A.   I do not remember this document, nor do I remember this

18     conversation.

19             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to page 7 of the English and

20     page 5 of the B/C/S.  And this is about a third of the way down in the

21     B/C/S and it's about -- starts about five lines down in the English.

22        Q.   Dr. Karadzic says:

23             "We must not participate in the referendum.  Everything they do

24     without us is of no use."

25             And about five lines down, he says:

Page 45372

 1             "The second thing that is very important, it gives us full moral

 2     right not to accept any decision resulting from the referendum, and it

 3     gives us right to introduce the stage number 2 in functioning of your

 4     areas and relying on your own forces to absolutely defend yourself from

 5     the independent Bosnia and Herzegovina."

 6             This is Dr. Karadzic's second reference to the need to implement

 7     stage 2 of the Variant A and B document at this meeting.  Do you remember

 8     that one?

 9        A.   I said a minute ago that I don't remember this document at all

10     and I don't remember the conversation, either.  It's a fact, however, and

11     it's beyond dispute, that the whole Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina

12     was against the secession of Bosnia-Herzegovina from the former

13     Yugoslavia.  And in that context, later on a referendum was carried out.

14     So it's beyond dispute that all the Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina were

15     against Bosnia-Herzegovina seceding from Yugoslavia, because they thought

16     that they would be jeopardized by that way as a collective body.

17        Q.   I'll show you one more passage from this meeting, and it's at

18     page 17 of the English and page 12 of the B/C/S.

19             I'm not sure if it's just my problem, but my e-court screen is

20     now black.  I have nothing.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Probably it's time to take a break.  We'll have a

22     break for 45 minutes and resume at 1.15.

23             I have been told that we cannot go beyond 3.00 due to a

24     Status Conference, which takes place in the afternoon.

25                           --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

Page 45373

 1                           [The witness stands down]

 2                           [The witness takes the stand]

 3                           --- On resuming at 1.19 p.m.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue, Ms. Gustafson.

 5             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 6        Q.   Mr. Miskovic, as I mentioned before the break, I'd like to show

 7     you one last passage of this 14 February 1992 Main Board meeting where

 8     Dr. Karadzic speaks at length.  And that's on the page before you.  It's

 9     towards the bottom of the page in your language, about two-thirds of the

10     way down.  And it's right near the middle in the English.  And he says:

11             "I think that we Serbs must stop with declarations -- with

12     declaration.  We've had enough declarations.  And now those declarations

13     should be translated into a map.  And the stage number 2 should also be

14     converted.  The one we've talked about, the one you have, if not here,

15     then at home, in order to -- in order to" --

16        A.   I can't see this -- oh, yes.  Sorry.

17        Q.   "... in order to have authorities in the field functioning, that

18     a bird cannot fly over, really."

19             I take it from your earlier answers, Mr. Miskovic, that you also

20     have no recollection of this, the third mention Dr. Karadzic makes at

21     this meeting of activating stage 2?  You don't remember attending any

22     such meeting; is that right?

23        A.   I said already I don't remember this meeting at all.  I'm not

24     saying it didn't take place.  I'm just saying I have absolutely no memory

25     of it.  As for the implementation of the Variant B, I've already said

Page 45374

 1     that we had made that decision.  We informed the Municipal Board, and we

 2     later established the Serbian Assembly, et cetera, as per Variant B.  But

 3     I don't really remember this meeting.  It was 20 years ago.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In line 14, the witness said:  "We

 7     established the Serbian Assembly and the shadow Executive Board."

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 9             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Could we have 65 ter 05721, page 23 of the

10     English and page 25 in the B/C/S, please.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Could you give the number again.

12             MS. GUSTAFSON:  65 ter 05721, please.

13        Q.   Mr. Miskovic, I was just showing you the transcript of the

14     14 February 1992 extended meeting of the Main Board held at the

15     Holiday Inn in Sarajevo.  Now this --

16             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I need page 25 of the B/C/S.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't see that here.

18             MS. GUSTAFSON:

19        Q.   This is a Holiday Inn receipt in your name reflecting your stay

20     at the Holiday Inn in Sarajevo on the night of the 14th and

21     15th of February, 1992, "to be paid for the hotel services for members of

22     the SDS Assembly."  That's your holiday -- that's a Holiday Inn receipt

23     in your name reflecting your attendance at the meeting, the transcript of

24     which we just looked at; correct?

25        A.   I never said, now or before, that I did not attend this meeting,

Page 45375

 1     and I did receive the papers about Variant A and B.  I don't see where

 2     the problem is now.  It's true that I spent the night at the Holiday Inn.

 3     It's true that I attended the meeting.  It's true that I received that

 4     paper describing Variants A and B.  And it's true that upon return to

 5     Prijedor, I informed the Municipal Board thereof and it's true that we

 6     later formed the Serbian Assembly and the shadow Executive Board.

 7        Q.   Mr. Miskovic, I think you're confused.  You're now talking again

 8     about December 1991.  I am talking about the 14 February 1992 meeting,

 9     the transcript of which I just showed you, at which Dr. Karadzic

10     activated stage 2 of the Variant A/B instructions which you already had.

11     And this Holiday Inn receipt reflects your attendance at that meeting on

12     the 14th of February, 1992, doesn't it?

13        A.   I'm not confused.  I'm confused only insofar that according to

14     this, and you'll confirm this, it seems that I was at the Holiday Inn

15     twice, but I was -- I stayed there only once, and that's when I received

16     that Variant A and B paper.  It's possible that this meeting took place,

17     but I don't remember it.  I remember only the other one.  It's not

18     disputed that I stayed at the Holiday Inn, that I took that paper.  Are

19     you staying that I stayed at the Holiday Inn twice, on the 14th and some

20     other date?  I don't know about that.  I was there only once as far as I

21     remember, if memory serves me at all.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I tender this page of this 65 ter.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive it.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  It receives Exhibit Number P6588, Your Honours.

25             MS. GUSTAFSON:

Page 45376

 1        Q.   Now, Mr. Miskovic, at paragraph 14 of your statement you talk

 2     about the SDS take-over of power in Prijedor on the 30th of April, 1992,

 3     and you describe it as something that was intended to ease rising

 4     tensions and ensure peace.  Now, however you may have viewed that, you

 5     would agree, wouldn't you, that it is highly unlikely that the Muslims

 6     and Croats of Prijedor viewed the unilateral take-over of power of the

 7     democratically elected government in Prijedor by the SDS as a move that

 8     would ease ethnic tensions.  They would have seen that as a provocative

 9     move that would have added to the ethnic tensions at the time, no?

10        A.   As far as the take-over is concerned and the tensions that

11     existed and that were caused in a way by the take-over, this Court should

12     know that the problem in Prijedor, when I came to be the head of the

13     party, from the very beginning was the division of power after the

14     multi-party elections.  I'm saying this because you just mentioned that

15     the take-over could have caused tensions on the other side.  If you put

16     it that way, then one could conclude that obstruction and shirking from

17     the division of power after the multi-party elections was on the part of

18     the SDA because they covered all the important posts in Prijedor

19     municipality so that out of ten senior posts --

20             THE ACCUSED:  I appeal to the Chamber that witness would be

21     allowed to accomplish his own response.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I didn't ask for a history of what happened in

23     Prijedor after the multi-party elections.  I asked a very simple

24     question.

25        Q.   Mr. Miskovic, would you agree that the Muslims and Croats of

Page 45377

 1     Prijedor on the whole viewed the SDS's unilateral take-over of power on

 2     the 30th of April, 1992, as a provocative move that inflamed ethnic

 3     tensions?

 4        A.   I wanted to show you that it was not what happened.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry, Mr. Miskovic, your answer is no?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course not.  But I didn't want

 7     to give such a terse answer.  I wanted to explain why.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Gustafson may ask why.  Wait for the question,

 9     please.

10             Please continue please, Ms. Gustafson.

11             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If I could have D31830, please.

12        Q.   Mr. Miskovic, these are the 23rd of April, 1992, SDS

13     Municipal Board meeting minutes.  And you're clearly present because it

14     says you opened the meeting.  And if you could look at number 5 in the

15     list of decisions, it says:

16             "To immediately start working on the take-over, the co-ordination

17     with the JNA notwithstanding."

18             When you were shown this document previously and this particular

19     point in your prior testimony, you said that this reflects the fact that

20     the SDS was preparing to take-over power, and that if the JNA was not

21     willing to do it, you would carry it out with armed Serb reserve soldiers

22     and police; correct?  That's what number 5 here reflects.

23        A.   In item 5 it says, "Start work immediately on the take-over

24     regardless of co-ordination with the JNA."  My signature is missing from

25     this.  I don't know where you found this record.  All the records were

Page 45378

 1     kept in longhand.  I have them at home.  But it's indisputable that in

 2     keeping with Variant B we had the intention of using this corps in

 3     Prijedor municipality to take over and thus prevent a pogrom.  And you

 4     could see that during the take-over, there were no unfortunate events

 5     until the -- until what happened later.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Line 9, it's missing:  "In the

 9     event of danger, we take measures to prevent a pogrom."  "Danger to the

10     Serbian people," the witness said.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue.

12             MS. GUSTAFSON:

13        Q.   Mr. Miskovic, again, if you could please answer directly my

14     question.  Do you agree that point 5 of these minutes reflect the SDS

15     position at the time, that they were preparing to take over power and

16     that if the JNA was not willing to do it, you would carry it out with

17     armed Serb reservists and police?

18        A.   This is taken out of context.  A moment ago you did not let me

19     explain the fear from the other side --

20        Q.   Mr. Miskovic --

21        A.   -- in case of take-over.  I wanted to explain --

22             JUDGE KWON:  Let him continue.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to enable you to see the

24     fear on the other side, why the Serb side was forced to carry out this

25     take-over.  It's difficult for you to understand what happened in the

Page 45379

 1     area of Prijedor and Kozara, but in another testimony I explained it.  In

 2     the Second World War, that region saw --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Miskovic --

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- saw a huge loss of life.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  -- we won't go there.

 6             Yes, please continue, Ms. Gustafson.

 7             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Yes, if I could have 65 ter 25674, page 84,

 8     please.

 9        Q.   And, Mr. Miskovic, I am going to read out what you said in your

10     prior testimony when you were shown point 5 of this document.

11             You were asked:

12             "And finally with this document, sir, number 5, there is a

13     conclusion" --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Are we on correct page?

15             MS. GUSTAFSON:  No, it should be page 84.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't have the Serbian.

17             JUDGE KWON:  There is no Serb version of the transcript at the

18     International Tribunal.  She will read out and then you can hear it.

19             MS. GUSTAFSON:

20        Q.   "And finally with this document, sir, number 5" --

21        A.   I apologise.

22        Q.   -- "there is a conclusion or a decision, sorry, to immediately

23     start working on the take-over.  Do you see that?"

24             "A.  Yes, yes.

25             "Q.  And what did that mean?

Page 45380

 1             "A.  Well, you know what that meant.  It meant that certain

 2     preparations had to be made because the blockade was still ongoing in

 3     order to take over power.  Something had to happen there.  We had to let

 4     the water out, conditionally speaking.  In that sense, that is what it

 5     means.  There were armed soldiers in the JNA.  If the JNA was not willing

 6     to do it, then we would take the Serb soldiers, and then in the police we

 7     would have the policemen and the reserve forces, so from both sources we

 8     had armed people, and in that way we would protect the Serbian people.

 9     So it was in that sense, and that's what actually was -- that's actually

10     what happened later."

11             That's what you said in your previous testimony in relation to

12     the document I just showed you and that is correct, is it not?

13        A.   I am not disputing that we were working to organise and prepare

14     the people -- I mean, that was the time when the JNA still existed.  But

15     when the JNA was disbanded, all the Serb soldiers and all able-bodied

16     Serb men who had been engaged in the TO back in 1991, they were the ones

17     who were supposed to protect the Serb people in Prijedor municipality.

18     That's the context in which you should understand this, and in that

19     context it's not disputed.

20             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I'd tender this page.

21        Q.   And, Mr. Miskovic, again, I'd like you to please listen to my

22     questions and answer my questions.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE KWON:  We'll add this page.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think I've answered.

25             MS. GUSTAFSON:

Page 45381

 1        Q.   Now, Mr. Miskovic, a few minutes ago when I asked you about

 2     this -- the minutes regarding the -- with the mention of the taking over

 3     of power, you said that:

 4             "... it's indisputable that in keeping with Variant B we had the

 5     intention of using this corps in Prijedor municipality to take over and

 6     thus prevent a pogrom."

 7             And I'd just like to confirm that you did consider the

 8     take-over -- the SDS take-over on the 30th of April was part of your

 9     implementation of Variant B of the Main Board instructions; correct?

10        A.   Excuse me, I didn't get the beginning, the beginning of the

11     question.

12        Q.   It's correct that you considered the SDS take-over of power on

13     the 30th of April to be part of your implementation of Variant B of the

14     Variant A/B instructions; is that right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Now at paragraph 12 of your statement, you explain that there was

17     a certain period of time in which you could not receive instructions from

18     Pale, and earlier in your testimony today you mentioned the time when

19     there wasn't a corridor.  Now you did attend the 12th of May -- you

20     attended the 12th of May, 1992, RS Assembly session in Banja Luka, where

21     Dr. Karadzic announced the strategic objectives.  You were at that

22     session; right?

23        A.   Most probably.  I don't remember the date.  But if I was invited

24     as president of the party, then I certainly went.  But I don't remember

25     the date or the discussion or the agenda.

Page 45382

 1             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If I could have 65 ter 25629, please.

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  I was just wondering if this was notified to us to

 3     be used.

 4             MS. GUSTAFSON:  It was certainly meant to be.  I can

 5     double-check.

 6        Q.   Now, Mr. Miskovic, this is a summary of the 18 May 1992 SDS

 7     Municipal Board meeting.

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And I'm just informed that it's my omission.  I

 9     neglected to notify this document.  I hope it doesn't cause any

10     difficulties.

11             MR. ROBINSON:  It's no problem, Mr. President, but it's nice that

12     it happens once in a while on your side instead of always on our side.

13             MS. GUSTAFSON:  That's appreciated.

14        Q.   And agenda item 2 says:

15             "Report from the session of the Serbian Republic of BH Assembly."

16             And if you look down at number 2, it says:

17             "A report on the Assembly session was presented by President S

18     Miskovic."

19             And it says there were 18 items on the agenda, "the main

20     guidelines in future activities were identified.  Commander of the army

21     supreme staff appointed, members of the Presidency of the Republic

22     elected, et cetera."

23             Now, does this remind you of the fact that you attended the

24     12 May 1992 RS Assembly session at which Dr. Karadzic announced the

25     strategic objectives and then you passed on information from that session

Page 45383

 1     to the SDS Municipal Board?

 2        A.   I can only tell you this:  I went to all the meetings to which I

 3     was invited as president of the party in Prijedor.  However, 20 years

 4     later, I don't remember the agendas or the discussion or the conclusions.

 5     Now I'm looking at this agenda but I don't remember it at all.  And I

 6     don't know what to say.  But I'm not questioning that I attended all the

 7     meetings to which I was invited or the sessions of the Main Board.  I

 8     did.

 9        Q.   Okay.  Well, this document reflects your attendance at an

10     RS Assembly session, and the contents of what's stated here, in

11     particular the appointment of the Main Staff commander and the members of

12     the Presidency, indicate that that was in fact the 16th Session held on

13     the 12th of May.  Do you have any reason to doubt that you were, in fact,

14     at that session and then reported back to the Prijedor SDS about it?

15        A.   I said to you a moment ago, if I was invited to sessions, then I

16     was certainly present because I was never absent.  I thought it was my

17     duty and obligation to attend in view of the position that I held.  And

18     it certainly was that way if that is what is written in the minutes, that

19     that is how I informed the Municipal Board.  But at this moment, I cannot

20     remember the agenda, the discussion, or the conclusions.

21             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I tender this document.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  It receives Exhibit Number P6589, Your Honours.

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:

25        Q.   Now, Mr. Miskovic, at paragraph 14 of your statement you discuss

Page 45384

 1     the attack on the town of Prijedor by Muslim and Croat formations on the

 2     30th of May, 1992.  And you state that this attack "cast a shadow over

 3     all previous agreements and activities that had ensured peace in

 4     Prijedor."  Now --

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   You are ignoring the fact that prior to the 30th of May, in the

 7     days preceding that, the VRS carried out major shelling and infantry

 8     attacks on the Muslim villages of Hambarine and Kozarac, shelling Muslim

 9     homes and killing and rounding up inhabitants of those villages.  Now,

10     there was no peace in Prijedor in the days prior to the

11     30th of May, 1992, was there?  The Muslim population was already under

12     attack.

13        A.   I think that it's the other way around, actually, and this is

14     why.  First of all, after the take-over of Prijedor, take a look at this,

15     there was not single incident.  No shops were broken.  There were no

16     conflicts between national structures.  Communication was regularly

17     maintained between and among all three ethnicities, all the way up until

18     the first attack, when the Serb policeman Dzapa was killed.  And then his

19     uncle took revenge against these innocent Muslims who were on a bus

20     coming from Zagreb.  Then there was this attack when soldiers were

21     ambushed by the Muslim forces on the way from Hambarine.  They killed two

22     or three soldiers, I cannot remember anymore, and wounded a few.  Then

23     the army reacted.  Also, the Prijedor-Banja Luka road was blockaded,

24     although we had previously agreed on free communication, that there would

25     be free communication in all directions.  So there was a reaction after

Page 45385

 1     these incidents.  It was not just a capricious thing.

 2        Q.   So --

 3        A.   I've already explained that.

 4        Q.   And in fact after the shelling of Kozarac, you went to Kozarac

 5     and you saw homes and buildings that had been destroyed by the shelling;

 6     right?

 7        A.   No, I was not in Kozarac up until the after the end of war.  I

 8     haven't been Mrakovica yet either.

 9             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to 65 ter 25674, please, page 104.

10        Q.   And at the very bottom of the page, the last question, it says:

11             "When did you go back to Kozarac?"

12             And this is in English, so I'll read it to you.  And on the next

13     page you answer:

14             "For the first time?  For the first time, it was after the

15     shelling.  I think I reached Dera.  And not again for a long time.

16             "Q.  And this was -- this was a town that you knew well.  What

17     did you receive when you arrived there, after the shelling?

18             "A.  Well, I saw some houses and buildings destroyed by the

19     shelling."

20             Now, that's what you said when you testified previously and

21     that's true, isn't it, Mr. Miskovic?

22        A.   Thank you for having reminded me.  It is true that after the

23     shelling -- well, it was in a private capacity because the party was

24     banned, but never mind.  I remember I got not mosque there.  Yes, you

25     have reminded me just now.  And I saw that part of the houses were, I

Page 45386

 1     mean, damaged.  But that is just this one time that I was there.

 2        Q.   Now at paragraph 15 you briefly mention your visit to Omarska.

 3     You state that Mico Kovacevic invited you to visit the camp with him.

 4     And again, I'd like to remind you about some of the things you've said

 5     previously about this visit and ask you to confirm them.

 6             First, your visit to Omarska was together with a group of

 7     officials from Banja Luka and Prijedor, including Radislav Brdjanin,

 8     Stojan Zupljanin, Mico Kovacevic, and Milomir Stakic; right?

 9        A.   In the other statements I have already told you that it so

10     happened that I was in front of the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor when

11     there was this jeep on the main road, and then Mico Kovacevic came up.

12     And I cannot remember, you say that Stakic was there, too.  Probably he

13     was.  I don't know.  But as for Mico, we've known each other for a long

14     time because his older brother lives in my neighbourhood and I know him

15     from the days when we were students.  And Mico came up, and he asked me

16     to come along, and I said where are you going.  And he said they came

17     from Banja Luka and we are going to Omarska, and that's how I went along.

18             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to 65 ter 25675, page 66 of the

19     English and page 102 of the B/C/S.

20        Q.   I interrupted you because I was just asking you who you went

21     with, and I will show you what you said before about this now, because it

22     appears you don't recall.

23        A.   It is a fact that I went and it's a fact that Mico invited me.

24     And who else was there, I don't know.  It's possible.

25        Q.   If you could just wait for the question.

Page 45387

 1             MS. GUSTAFSON:  It should be page 66 in the English, page 102 in

 2     the B/C/S.

 3        Q.   And you were asked right around the middle of the page:

 4             "You actually went to Omarska in the company of Predrag Radic,

 5     didn't you?"

 6             And you answer:  "A number of them."

 7             And you're asked:  "Let's go through them.

 8             And you say:  "Yes."

 9             "Radoslav Brdjanin?

10             "Yes.

11             "Stojan Zupljanin?

12             "Yes.

13             "Who else?

14             "Mico Kovacevic, Stakic.

15             "Who else was there?

16             "There were other people from Banja Luka."

17             So it's correct, is it not, that among the people you visited

18     Omarska with were Brdjanin, Zupljanin, Kovacevic, and Stakic, no?

19        A.   I'm telling you, and I've stated that already on each and every

20     occasion, that I was in Omarska on that day.  And I told you about the

21     way I went there.  I do not remember --

22        Q.   If you could please just answer the question.  If you don't

23     remember who you went with, please just say so.

24        A.   Right now I don't remember.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 45388

 1             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If I could tender this page.  I don't believe any

 2     of this interview has an exhibit number yet.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive this page.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  It receives Exhibit Number P6590, Your Honours.

 5             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could go to page 68 of the English and

 6     page 104 of the B/C/S.

 7        Q.   And just above the middle of the page in the English and towards

 8     the bottom of the page in the B/C/S, you're asked:

 9             "Was it clear to you that the people you saw in the camp had been

10     ill-treated?"

11             And you said:

12             "I could see that they looked ill or looked bad, but I couldn't

13     see what the treatment was since I wasn't there."

14             Now that's correct, isn't it, you could see that the detainees

15     looked ill and looked bad when you visited Omarska?

16        A.   I said, I mean during the previous conversation, and I confirm

17     that now, I just passed by these people who were standing on the other

18     side of the fence, and I went to these steps that were on the left-hand

19     side and we went to that room.  I, I mean, cannot say who looked which

20     way physically, who looked sick or who did not look sick.  I think I just

21     said that some of them had beards and I couldn't recognise them,

22     therefore, and I am sure that they all recognised me because they knew me

23     from before, you know.  But I could not recognise anyone because I --

24     although I did pass nearby.

25             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Could I add this page to P6590, please.

Page 45389

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 2             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could go to page 63 of the English and

 3     page 97 of the B/C/S.

 4        Q.   And this is near the top of the page in both languages, and

 5     you're asked:

 6             "The people in those camps, Keraterm and Omarska, included women,

 7     didn't they?  Or at least Omarska did?"

 8             And you answered:

 9             "Yes, I saw women when I first went there, and among them even my

10     colleague Sifeta [phoen], I can't remember her family name."

11             And that's correct as well, isn't it, Mr. Miskovic, you saw women

12     among the detainees at Omarska when you went there; right?

13        A.   Miskovic, not Misetic.  It is true that I saw my colleague from

14     work there, Sifeta, I forgot her last name.  And I kept saying -- well, I

15     never said that that was camp because, for me, that was an investigation

16     centre.  And I explained why I considered that to be an investigation

17     centre.  Because people were being investigated by the police, public,

18     secret --

19        Q.   Mr. Miskovic --

20        A.   -- professionals, that's my opinion.

21        Q.   Again, you're straying away from the question.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:  So I'd like to go now to page 69 of the English

23     and page 106 of the B/C/S.

24        A.   I said that I saw Sifeta there, my colleague.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.

Page 45390

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Let's continue.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an objection in relation to

 3     the camps.  In the question, it says "camp," but the witness is

 4     commenting on the fact that he did not accept that that was a camp.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For no reason --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and I explained the reasons why

 8     I --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  The witness has answered the question and we can go

10     on.

11             THE ACCUSED:  He was interrupted.

12             MS. GUSTAFSON:

13        Q.   And near the top of the page in the English and towards the

14     middle of the B/C/S, you state:

15             "We climbed a staircase at this building."

16             And a few lines down you say:

17             "And as far as I remember, they were singing Serb or Chetnik

18     songs."

19             And you're asked:

20             "Weren't you surprised that the Bosniaks and Croats were singing

21     Serb songs?"

22             And you say:

23             "Yes, I was.  Someone made them to."

24             And I understand that in the B/C/S you also say:  "It was

25     obvious."

Page 45391

 1             Now that's correct as well, isn't it, Mr. Miskovic, when you and

 2     the others visited Omarska, the detainees were forced to sing Serb or

 3     Chetnik songs?

 4        A.   I don't know whether they were forced.  I did hear that, but I

 5     was not present when somebody was forcing them to do that, if that

 6     happened in the first place.  But I did hear them sing.

 7             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I would add this page to P6590, please.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             MS. GUSTAFSON:

10        Q.   Now, Mr. Miskovic, at paragraph 15, and again in your -- just a

11     moment ago you stated that Omarska was an investigation centre.  And in

12     your statement you said that's what you believed because professional MUP

13     officials were engaged in interrogating the prisoners.  But isn't it true

14     that at the time you actually questioned this label "investigation

15     centre" because it wasn't clear to you how so many people could be

16     allegedly investigated yet not a single charge brought against any of

17     them?  Isn't that what you thought at the time?

18        A.   As regards that, I mean my opinion is very well known.  I've

19     already explained the reason why I think this was an investigation

20     centre.  However, as president of the party, and the work of the party

21     was frozen, nobody informed me about the procedures there and whether

22     there were proceedings instituted and whether somebody was punished,

23     sentenced, et cetera, I really don't know about that.  But those carrying

24     out the investigations in the area do know.  If there are no criminal

25     reports or criminal charges or other charges -- I mean, I would just be

Page 45392

 1     surprised as a professional.

 2             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could have 65 ter 22182, please.  And if we

 3     could go to page 62.

 4        Q.   Now, Mr. Miskovic, this is a transcript of an audio-recorded

 5     interview you gave the Prosecution back in 2001, and we only have an

 6     English transcript, so I'm going to read out a passage of that to you.

 7        A.   All right.

 8        Q.   In the middle of the page you are asked:

 9             "You must be aware, surely, that the detention camps were set up

10     in Prijedor municipality?"

11             And you answer:

12             "No, it was like this as far as I know, as far as I was informed.

13     I am telling you now the way I found out about it as an ordinary citizen,

14     because the party was not operational, the work, the activities of the

15     party were frozen.  The information that I have was that collection

16     centres and investigation centres were established.  Investigation centre

17     being one in Omarska.  But I know one thing because fair number of my

18     colleagues from the police was engaged in investigating people there,

19     that is why I thought, I mean, why this was confirmed to me that this was

20     investigation.  But comment after everything was that, I said it wasn't

21     clear to me, as I was policeman, that so many people being investigated

22     but no charges were brought against them.  There was not a single

23     charge."

24             Now, that's what you said in 2001 and that reflects your

25     questioning of the label of Omarska as an investigation centre because

Page 45393

 1     not a single charge was brought against any detainee; right?

 2        A.   I've already said I don't know whether charges were brought or

 3     were not brought.  Nobody informed me officially.  But I'm just saying to

 4     you as a professional, if - if - no charges were brought, then that is

 5     not clear to me.  But I don't know.  I wasn't functioning in that way at

 6     the time, and nobody had the duty to inform me in any way about that.  I

 7     just got this information as an ordinary citizen, as the statement says.

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I would tender this page of this interview,

 9     please.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive this page.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  It receives Exhibit Number P6591, Your Honours.

12             MS. GUSTAFSON:

13        Q.   Now, Mr. Miskovic, at paragraph 13 you state that you only later

14     learned about the Keraterm investigation centre.  But you did know about

15     the existence of Keraterm when it was operational, didn't you, because

16     you heard about the massacre of prisoners there shortly after it

17     happened; right?

18        A.   The fact is that I do remember this thing happened.  I was

19     returning from Banja Luka - and I don't know why I went to Banja Luka -

20     and at the crossroads in Cirkin Polje, the police were standing there and

21     they were blocking the main road, and I said:  What's going on?  And they

22     said there are some problems there.  And I thought that perhaps there was

23     a traffic accident.  And they said there are some problems and we have to

24     go in a different direction.  And then I did go in a different direction,

25     and I found out that certain unfortunate things had happened in Keraterm.

Page 45394

 1     That's when I founded out about that.  After all, at the time I was -- I

 2     mean, I had a relationship with a certain lady and her brother was there

 3     at the time, so I heard from him about this thing that had happened.

 4        Q.   In fact, you had a relationship with a certain Muslim lady.  She

 5     had relatives in Keraterm, and you heard from her that there had been a

 6     massacre of prisoners there; right?

 7        A.   Allegedly, yes, a certain number of people had lost their lives.

 8        Q.   But you know now that that was true; right?  There were almost

 9     200 people massacred one night in Keraterm.  You know that now to be

10     true, don't you?  You said "allegedly."

11        A.   I don't know that.  I don't know.  I don't know to this day.

12     This is the first time I hear this information.

13             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to 65 ter 25674, page 169, please.

14     Oh, sorry, just one other question on this issue.

15        Q.   Mr. Miskovic, it's true that you did not do anything to try to

16     find out what action was being taken against the people that had

17     committed that alleged crime; right?

18        A.   I don't know on what basis I, as an ordinary citizen, could take

19     action and interfere in the work of others, especially armed persons at

20     the time.  The work of the party was frozen at the time, so I operated

21     like any other ordinary citizen at that time.

22        Q.   So I take it that you agree you didn't do anything to find out

23     what -- what was being done to investigate that crime or bring the

24     perpetrators of the alleged crime to justice?

25        A.   Well, I was not in charge of that.  There are services and organs

Page 45395

 1     that are in charge of doing that.  Whether they did implement that or

 2     not, I don't know.

 3        Q.   Okay.

 4             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to page 169 of 65 ter 25674,

 5     please.  This should be page 169.  I think we need to move forward

 6     three pages.  One more page, please.  That's it.  Thank you.

 7        Q.   And I'm going to read to you what you said, a passage from your

 8     prior testimony, and this is about two-thirds of the way down this page.

 9     You said:

10             "I was invited to come to the corps command because I often

11     reacted to the looting and other crimes such as smuggling and so on, so

12     people from the region would be summoned to come to the corps command to

13     find out what's going on.  And then the issue was raised how it's

14     possible that the trucks can go through all the 50 check-points from our

15     territory to Serbia, whereas I cannot even take a pin through these

16     check-points."

17             Now, what you were describing here, as I understand it, is that

18     on one occasion you went to the 1 KK Corps command and complained about

19     looting and smuggling; is that right?

20        A.   Well, in relation to this, because I often reacted to that kind

21     of thing at the Municipal Board and also on a private basis as a private

22     individual, I was asked to come to the corps command and also other

23     representatives of that subregion.  They asked us to say who these people

24     were.  Who, I mean, did that.  But I said:  I mean how is it that you

25     don't know them?  I think that's what I said.  There are about

Page 45396

 1     50 check-points from here to Serbia and I, conditionally speaking, cannot

 2     get a needle through that way, and now you're asking me whose trucks

 3     these were.  So this is it to the best of my recollection in that

 4     context.

 5        Q.   So as I understand it, you were complaining that trucks with

 6     looted goods could go through all 50 check-points between Prijedor and

 7     Serbia but you couldn't take anything at all through these check-points.

 8     Is that a correct understanding?

 9        A.   These were not looted goods.  This was a case of illegal trade.

10     I mean, at the time when other young people were getting killed.  That's

11     the context.  Because I don't know who was transporting what in trucks.

12        Q.   Okay.  You said:

13             "I often reacted to the looting and other crimes such as

14     smuggling and so on, so people from the region would be summoned to come

15     to the corps command to find out what's going on."

16             Now you agree, do you not, that the discussion you had at the

17     corps command was about looting?

18        A.   I did not initiate that.  They called me to ask me why I was

19     reacting that way.  And it wasn't only me.  It was also from Dubica and

20     Novi, people from there, I think.  And we've said what I've already told

21     you about.  I said that I could not get a needle through 50 check-points,

22     and trucks and trailer-trucks could go through these check-points and now

23     you're calling me to ask me who these people are.  I am not checking

24     them, I'm not checking the goods that they were transporting.  I, as a

25     citizen, simply see the reaction of people, and as a normal person I have

Page 45397

 1     to say that.  I mean, while young people are getting killed.  I just have

 2     to react to that.

 3        Q.   Sorry, Mr. Miskovic, it's just not a hundred per cent clear to me

 4     and I would just like you to confirm if you could with a yes or a no.

 5     The discussion you had --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 7             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Sorry.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Because given that the witness doesn't understand

 9     English and there's no B/C/S version, probably when you read the

10     transcript read from the question and that's -- so that the witness can

11     follow.  This was a question whether you visited the Krajina Corps when

12     Mr. Subotic visited Prijedor with Zupljanin, et cetera.  So this is your

13     answer.  I quote:

14             "I was invited to come to the corps command because I often

15     reacted to the looting and other crimes such as smuggling and so on, so

16     people from the region would be summoned to come to the corps command to

17     find out what's going on.  And then the issue was raised how it is

18     possible that trucks can go through all the 50 check-points from our

19     territory to Serbia, whereas I cannot even take a pin through those

20     check-points."

21             Do you remember having said so?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The context is the following:

23     We -- you have stated all the elements --

24             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- but the context is --

Page 45398

 1             JUDGE KWON:  You can answer -- start your answer with "yes" or

 2     "no" and then you can explain.  Do you remember having said so,

 3     Mr. Miskovic?  That's your testimony in Zupljanin case.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it's true.  It's true.  But

 5     the sequence how things went, I was also invited.  I didn't go there of

 6     my own accord.  Although, it would have been better if I had reacted of

 7     my own initiative but that's how it was anyway.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 9             Please continue.  Shall we add that page?

10             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Yes, I think that --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12             MS. GUSTAFSON:  -- would be a good thing.

13        Q.   Now, Mr. Miskovic, if I could just get you to answer, if

14     possible, with a "yes" or a "no," this discussion at the corps command

15     involved the subject of looting and smuggling.  I'm not asking you what

16     was said.  Just that that was the topic or at least one of the topics

17     discussed at that meeting; is that right?

18        A.   I can repeat today that I was invited there.  I reacted

19     immediately when I was asked who those people were.  I reacted in the

20     same way that I talked to you, and I was interrupted.  But I couldn't put

21     it differently.  I said:  How is it that I can't take a pin through these

22     check-points, whereas others drove entire trailer-trucks through?  And I

23     received no answer but, of course, he wasn't obliged to give me one.

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could have 65 ter 21740, please.

25        Q.   Now, Mr. Miskovic, at paragraph 6 and 16 of your statement, you

Page 45399

 1     discuss the conflict you have with municipal officials in Prijedor, which

 2     resulted in you threatening to resign in October of 1992.  And you state

 3     that you were seeking to distance yourself and the party from all the

 4     negative conduct in Prijedor, and that your platform which you presented

 5     on the 5th of October, 1992, was the basic policy of the Municipal Board.

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, this 65 ter number was somehow

 7     transferred to 25720, so I think that's where you'll find it.

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Oh, thank you.  Thank you very much.  No, this is

 9     not what I'm looking for.  If we could go to the next page, please.

10        Q.   Now, Mr. Miskovic, this is your 5th of October, 1992, proposal,

11     is it not?  Or platform, as you put it.

12        A.   Yes, it is.  Yes, that's what I call it.

13        Q.   And if we can look at number 3, it says:

14             "To publicly distance the party from any form of theft, misuse,

15     and war profiteering, as well as any illegal and immoral activities..."

16             And if we could quickly look at number 7, which should be on the

17     next page, it says:

18             "To return to our state all of the unlawfully appropriated

19     material assets, machines, technical equipment, flats, money, et cetera,

20     which are going to be necessary for its sustainment after the war."

21             Now, of the ten points in this platform, these are the only two

22     that address crime and the only crimes that are explicitly mentioned are

23     theft and war profiteering.  Now I take it that this reflects the fact

24     that these were the crimes that you and others in the party were

25     principally concerned with at the time; is that right?

Page 45400

 1        A.   At the beginning of the platform it says, I think, since there

 2     were rumours which somebody probably spread deliberately, that behind all

 3     this dirty business in Prijedor, that is, all illegal business, there was

 4     the Serbian Democratic Party.  Since this is not true, and since I was

 5     building my reputation, and I was known as a man of the law, and also to

 6     defend my own dignity and that of the party, I was forced to come forward

 7     with this platform, otherwise I would resign unconditionally.  And I said

 8     that the board must adopt it, which was done.  And this was the platform

 9     of the Prijedor Municipal Board at the time, and this was also our

10     orientation.  I mean political orientation.

11        Q.   Mr. Miskovic, you did not answer my question at all.  My question

12     was:  Does the fact that the only two crimes mentioned explicitly in the

13     document are theft and war profiteering reflect the fact that these were

14     the crimes that you and the party were principally concerned with?

15        A.   I think that it says, black on white, here:  All illegal and

16     immoral activities.  That encompasses it all.  So anything that was

17     against the law, all sorts of crimes.  It says in clear language.

18     Nothing is left out.

19        Q.   But you singled out theft and war profiteering.  Doesn't that

20     reflect your particular concern with these crimes, the fact that you

21     singled them out in this document?

22        A.   You know how it was.  These are the things that were most obvious

23     to the people and you have to start with something; that is, looting,

24     crime, and so on.  You can't go item by item, though, and enumerate

25     everything.  And you must request all the authorities, including military

Page 45401

 1     authorities, to do their job in order to prevent such behaviour.

 2             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go back one page and look at

 3     number 4.

 4        Q.   And this item of your platform discusses replacing company

 5     managers who supported other parties, Durakovic and Ante Markovic, with

 6     SDS personnel.  And on the next page, still in item 4, the second-last

 7     paragraph of this item says:

 8             "This is the main reason why there is a certain degree of

 9     misunderstanding among some people in the Party, and among the Party" --

10        A.   I can barely hear you.  Something is -- oh, no, now it's okay.

11     Now it's all right.

12        Q.   It says -- this is still under 4:

13             "This is the main reason why there is a certain degree of

14     misunderstanding among some people in the Party, and among the Party

15     representatives in the government."

16             So it's clear from this document that the main cause of the

17     conflict within the party in Prijedor was about personnel.  It had

18     nothing to do with crime at all; right?

19        A.   This is only one segment, just one bone of contention.  The

20     representatives of a party had entered a coalition with other parties,

21     and I mean Ante Markovic's people from before the war and Durakovic's

22     socialist party and the reformists.  And it was our opinion that they had

23     created or had given rise to all these negative things.  And our

24     representatives in the ruling structures had implemented all that through

25     them.  Of course, that was our view.  We couldn't prove that.

Page 45402

 1             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I would tender this document, which is at pages 2

 2     through 4 of this 65 ter.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive it.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  It receives Exhibit Number P6592, Your Honours.

 5             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Your Honours, I note my time is nearly up.  This

 6     is my last topic and I think I can conclude it within ten minutes.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue.

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could have 65 ter 1D25930.  It now has an

 9     exhibit number.  I am not sure what it is.  It's an associated exhibit.

10        Q.   Mr. Miskovic, this is a document you discuss at paragraph 19 of

11     your statement.  It's your letter of the 19th of October, 1992, to

12     Mr. Stakic, Mr. Kovacevic, and Mr. Drljaca, in which you ask these

13     authorities to take action regarding illegal activities.  And again, the

14     only crimes that this letter explicitly identifies are looting, war

15     profiteering, and abuse of office, and this is another reflection, is it

16     not, of the fact that these were the crimes that principally concerned

17     you and other party members at the time?

18        A.   We were concerned by all crimes, but these crimes were all too

19     obvious, because every house, every family gave their own contribution to

20     the war, and this went on in front of their eyes.  And of course they

21     reacted.  That's why we had to stress this.  This is simply a request to

22     the authorities to start activities to -- aimed at military and civilian

23     structures to prevent all sorts of illegal behaviour.  This is an

24     additional appeal to all authorities, including the police, so that

25     nobody could say that they weren't informed and that nothing -- that they

Page 45403

 1     weren't ask to do anything.

 2             Now, the army is a different thing.  We didn't -- that was

 3     something else all together.

 4        Q.   Now, you said, "These crimes were all too obvious," referring to

 5     looting, war profiteering, and abuse of office.  Mr. Miskovic, the crimes

 6     like the massacre at Keraterm were obvious too, weren't they?  Everybody

 7     in Prijedor knew about that.  But you don't mention that much more

 8     serious crime in any of your letters and protestations and platforms, do

 9     you?

10        A.   I don't know to what extent it was known, because it was kept

11     secret.  There may have been rumours.  But nobody ever stated it

12     officially.  This was at an earlier time when the platform was adopted,

13     and what you're referring to came later.  And the platform, with its

14     political statement, in fact, encompasses all sorts of illegal and

15     immoral behaviour.

16        Q.   Your platform is dated the 5th of October, 1992.  The massacre at

17     Keraterm had already happened; right?  That was in July, wasn't it?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Now, at paragraph 16 of your statement, you - in discussing your

20     5th of October platform - you state that at the Municipal Board session

21     the entire municipal leadership was dismissed for not having implemented

22     this policy.  Now just to be clear, Mr. Stakic and Mr. Kovacevic

23     continued to serve as president of the municipality and president of the

24     Executive Board until January of 1993; correct?

25        A.   They are not party representatives.  They are representatives of

Page 45404

 1     the authorities.  And I -- and by this, Stakic, Kovacevic, Drljaca are

 2     meant.  The ones we wanted replaced.

 3        Q.   They were all SDS members, weren't they?  In fact, they were all

 4     Municipal Board members; right?

 5        A.   They were SDS members, but not Municipal Board members.  Drljaca

 6     was not, Stakic was vice-president, Mico Kovacevic was --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Could you repeat your answer.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not all of them were members of the

10     Municipal Board of the SDS.  Milomir Stakic was a member and he was

11     vice-president.  He was also member of the Municipal Board.

12     Mico Kovacevic, president of the Executive Board, was not member of the

13     Municipal Board.  Simo Drljaca was not a member of the Municipal Board.

14     Who else was there?  I forget.  But they were not members of the

15     Municipal Board.  Stakic was a member and a vice-president, my

16     vice-president.

17             MS. GUSTAFSON:

18        Q.   Now, Mr. Stakic and Mr. Kovacevic continued to serve as president

19     of the Municipal Assembly and president of the Executive Board until

20     January 1993; right?

21        A.   Executive Board.  I don't remember the date, but we launched

22     activities to replace the people in leading positions, and there were

23     problems.  Soldiers with rifles came to our Assembly and there could have

24     been a confrontation, but we tolerated them because we had nothing to

25     hide.  It was very cumbersome but we succeeded eventually.

Page 45405

 1             And the last one to be replaced was Simo Drljaca with the

 2     assistance of the party leadership.  I believe that Mr. Krajisnik was in

 3     charge of that.  But all previous attempts were unsuccessful.  The

 4     minister of the interior, I believe his name was Hadzic, I am not sure,

 5     and he tried to replace him but without success.

 6        Q.   Now, Mr. Miskovic, you talk in your statement and also at

 7     paragraph 16 about your efforts to have Simo Drljaca dismissed, which you

 8     state you managed to do with the assistance of Mr. Krajisnik, something

 9     you've just repeated.  But, in fact, Mr. Drljaca was not exactly

10     dismissed, was he?  He was promoted and became assistant minister of the

11     MUP, didn't he?

12        A.   I don't know that.  I know that at that Assembly we were able to

13     replace him because Krajisnik was there, and later on -- but later on,

14     even Stakic returned.  But at that period, we strove to replace these

15     representatives of the authorities.  There is no dispute about that.

16        Q.   Now, Mr. Miskovic, at paragraph 17 you state that:

17             "It is indisputable that SDS policy in Prijedor was not

18     discriminatory towards any ethnic structure ..."

19             The truth is, Mr. Miskovic, that the Prijedor municipal

20     authorities, including Stakic, Drljaca, and Kovacevic, all of whom, as

21     you've confirmed, were SDS members, were implementing the policy of the

22     RS and SDS leadership to permanently remove non-Serbs from the

23     municipality.  That's why the crimes against non-Serbs continued for so

24     long on such a massive scale.  That's why no one from the municipal

25     leadership was held accountable by the RS authorities for those crimes.

Page 45406

 1     That's why Mr. Drljaca was promoted.  And that's why you and the

 2     municipal SDS leadership spoke out about crimes like looting and

 3     smuggling and ignored the far more serious crimes going on against

 4     Muslims and Croats; right?

 5        A.   You can't really put it like that.  I said, and the platform also

 6     reads, as far as our policy, our political position was that all crimes

 7     and all illegal activities, no matter who committed them, should be

 8     brought to justice.  But we were not ones to do that.  The hierarchy is

 9     known.  The authorities, the police, and so on.  It is clear who has

10     power.  The one who has weapons, especially at wartime.  We cannot affect

11     people's appointments or dismissals.  You saw that we couldn't even

12     prevent the army coming to our Assembly with long-barreled weapons.

13     Perhaps we could have, but then there would have been a confrontation,

14     and then what?  So it was important to find the right measure and the

15     right balance.  That's what my platform says, too.  It has to start at

16     the top and then go down.

17        Q.   Thank you.  I have nothing further.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

19             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             Your Excellencies, I will not manage to conclude today.  Are we

22     going to work until 2.45 or 3.00?

23             JUDGE KWON:  We can continue until 3.00, but -- if you like.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can, but he must -- since he must

25     come back tomorrow, you should decide.

Page 45407

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have a problem coming back tomorrow?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  Whatever you say.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 4                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Miskovic, let's start with the last issues

 6     from the cross-examination as to how the Prosecution understands the

 7     power and role of the SDS.  And let's connect this with the claim of the

 8     Prosecution, from page 75 of today's LiveNote, that on the 30th of April,

 9     1992, the SDS took over power in Prijedor.  Can you tell us whether the

10     SDS indeed took over power in Prijedor?

11        A.   From the documents, we see the term "take-over of power."

12     However, we see from the documents that military structures, police

13     structures were involved, in the effort to establish a Serb authority, a

14     Serb government in Prijedor.

15        Q.   You also accepted the contention that the take-over of power on

16     30th of April, 1992, was executed in keeping with Variant B.  Can you

17     tell us, according to Variant B, what does the Serb side take over, the

18     whole municipality of Prijedor or the Serb municipality of Prijedor?

19             MS. GUSTAFSON:  That was a leading -- that's a leading question.

20     It just should have stopped with "what does the Serb side take over."

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You will see, Your Excellencies,

22     that it's not a leading question.

23             JUDGE KWON:  No, you can simply ask what does the Serb side take

24     over, as suggested by Ms. Gustafson.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 45408

 1        Q.   What was the Serb side supposed to take over, according to

 2     plan B?  And what did it take over on 30th of April, 1992?

 3        A.   According to Variant B, in the event of threat to the Serbian

 4     people in that area, and to prevent that threat, the Serb side was

 5     supposed to take over power and that was done in the territories

 6     populated by a Serb majority.  That's what I told Ms. Gustafson in her

 7     examination.

 8        Q.   Who controlled Muslim parts of the municipality?

 9        A.   In all my previous statements I said and confirmed today,

10     whenever we discussed this issue, that in the municipality of Prijedor,

11     between Serb and Muslim areas there were check-points to prevent anyone

12     who would want to create an incident in the other side's neighbourhood.

13     And we succeeded in this effort.  In this period there were no incidents

14     in either Serb or Muslim neighbourhoods created by a member of the other

15     ethnicity.  In the same period, there were many talks and negotiations

16     with prominent people, people who had authority from the other ethnic

17     community, all with a view to preventing conflict, confrontation, and

18     war.  You can see all these various views expressed in talks, et cetera,

19     but you have to understand that this area was severely victimised during

20     the Second World War.  We had to prevent all sorts of --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to speak at a

22     normal speed.

23             JUDGE KWON:  One moment.  One moment, Mr. Miskovic.  You are

24     speaking too fast, far too fast.  You need to --

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I told you to caution me because I

Page 45409

 1     know I have this inclination.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  So you need to repeat.  So you repeat from:  "We had

 3     to prevent all sorts of ..."  If you remember.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, to avoid confrontation we had

 5     to prevent anyone who would, for whatever reason, cause confrontation

 6     that would result in an avalanche, all in view of the experiences of that

 7     area from the Second World War, which you may not know about.  It was a

 8     huge tragedy.  Most of those who perished at the Jasenovac camp were

 9     children from Mount Kozara --

10             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  It's for Mr. Karadzic, but do you

11     remember the question of Mr. Karadzic?  What was his question now you're

12     answering?

13             So his question was:  Who controlled Muslim parts of the

14     municipality?  Did you answer that question?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They did.  They did.  I answered

16     that by talking about the check-points.  In addition to that, we had --

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- talks once or twice a day with

19     some of their representatives.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Please be brief.

21             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.  Please continue.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Thank you.  Please give us focused answers.  You said that they

24     controlled their own territories.

25        A.   Yes, we controlled our own and there were check-points to prevent

Page 45410

 1     intruders going from one side to another.

 2        Q.   Until what time were these check-points tolerated?

 3        A.   I can't remember the date, but I can tell you that the situation

 4     was peaceful, without a single incident on either side.  All the way up

 5     to the moment when a Serb policeman by the name of Dzapa was killed.  And

 6     the consequence of that, which was precisely what we feared and what we

 7     tried to prevent, is that his uncle intercepted a bus coming from Zagreb

 8     and killed several innocent Muslims, including by chance a colleague of

 9     my late wife, who was travelling from Croatia and had a Croatian ID.  And

10     there was -- and she was Serb, and she had trouble proving that she was

11     Serb.

12             Another incident was when soldiers were ambushed near Hambarine,

13     when they were coming back from Slavonia.  And a third incident was when

14     a roadblock was placed on the road although we had agreed earlier that we

15     would free up communications in the whole territory.  That's when the

16     road Prijedor-Banja Luka was blocked near Kozarac and Kozarusa.  And as

17     far as I know, the army came and intervened.  Those are the three

18     incidents that caused confrontation in my view.

19        Q.   We shall not go into what happened during the Second World War,

20     acknowledging the recommendation of the Honourable Presiding Judge, but

21     please tell us, were there anymore recent reasons for your concern at the

22     time?  How did the other two sides behave?

23        A.   As far as reasons for concern are concerned, and I stated that in

24     my previous statements, was that we needed to divide powers after the

25     multiparty elections.  And later on, I concluded that the reason was that

Page 45411

 1     the Muslims had already entrenched positions.  The president of the

 2     court -- [No interpretation]

 3             JUDGE KWON:  No, just --

 4             THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]

 5             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] I am really sorry.  I tend to

 6     forget myself.  This is what I do all the time.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Can you explain to us who held which positions and how were the

 9     powers to be distributed?

10        A.   I explained it several times already.

11        Q.   Take it easy and slowly.  We are just wasting more time.

12        A.   Please, check me when I start again.  The misgivings were

13     strengthened by the fact that the representatives of the SDA were evasive

14     about this agreement on dividing powers because they already had

15     entrenched positions.  A Muslim was the president of the court, the

16     public prosecutor, too, the chief of MUP, too, the commander of the

17     station, too.  Chief of Territorial Defence, Muslim; national defence,

18     Muslims.  So practically, apart from the JNA, the entire armed forces,

19     both the reserve force and the police, were controlled be the Muslims.

20             After the multiparty elections, there was supposed to be a

21     levelling in the personnel, a more equitable ratio.  So when I came to be

22     the head of the party, I placed myself at the head of our delegation to

23     avoid having information from secondary sources, and we started talks

24     about the tax administration.  And within two hours, we divided

25     50 per cent of all posts.  That's what happens when everybody has good

Page 45412

 1     will.  However, the next day the representatives of the SDA reneged on

 2     that agreement and stopped further talks.  I suppose that's because the

 3     talks were leading to a more equatable ratio in the senior posts and this

 4     created misgivings among the Serbs.  That's one of the reasons.

 5        Q.   Was there any organisation of paramilitaries in Prijedor, and how

 6     is this connected with the staffing in the so-called security ministries

 7     and et cetera?

 8        A.   There were no paramilitaries ever during the war in Prijedor.  On

 9     the other hand, I was very surprised when I heard that an acquaintance of

10     mine, Ecimovic, was the head of the Green Berets in Carakovo village.

11     Why I was I surprised?  Because I used to know him.  He was a handsome

12     man and we met each other in bars very often.  He was rather fond of

13     Bohemian life.  And I asked Dr. Esad Sadikovic to go and talk to him and

14     invite him to talk to me.  I wanted to know what it's all about.  And

15     Esad Sadikovic really went.  He went to Carakovo, and he came back and

16     tells me -- can I say exactly in his words what he told me, as Esad told

17     it to me or shall I modify it a little?

18        Q.   Choose your words yourself.

19        A.   He said:  "This fool, he has taken the 84 gun, holding it between

20     his knees, playing Rambo."  I was shocked.  However, through a

21     combination of circumstances, this same Ecimovic, after the attack of

22     Prijedor, which was captured, I met him in the barracks and I wanted to

23     know why he was acting that way.  And he -- all he said was:  I know you,

24     Miskovic.  I suppose he was ashamed.  And we had been together to Grace,

25     to some workshop before, and I thought I knew him really well so I was

Page 45413

 1     really shocked by his new persona.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  If we are going to continue tomorrow, shall we

 3     adjourn here for the day.

 4             Mr. Miskovic, we continue tomorrow morning at 9.00.  I'd like to

 5     advise you -- I wanted to advise you to the not to discuss about your

 6     testimony with anybody else.

 7             Hearing is adjourned.

 8                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.57 p.m.,

 9                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 19th day of

10                           December, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.