Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 45794

 1                           Wednesday, 22 January 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             Good morning, Mr. Beara.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Harvey.

10             MR. HARVEY:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.

11             May I introduce Maria Naumceska, who is from the

12     Republic of Macedonia and has been with my team since November of last

13     year.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

15             And for the record, I note that counsel for Mr. Beara,

16     Mr. Ostojic, is in the courtroom.  Good morning to you, Mr. Ostojic.

17             MR. OSTOJIC:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Today, Mr. Beara, you will be cross-examined by the

19     representative of the Office of the Prosecutor.  I like to remind you

20     that the oath you took is still valid.

21             And I take it, Mr. Ostojic, the Chamber doesn't need to repeat

22     the Rule 90(E) advice for the benefit of the witness.

23             MR. OSTOJIC:  Correct, Your Honour.  I believe you don't have to,

24     but from time to time Mr. Beara may ask for it, so depending on the

25     questions, correct.

Page 45795

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Ostojic.

 2             Good morning, Ms. Pack.

 3             MS. PACK:  Good morning, Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Please proceed.

 5             MS. PACK:  Thank you.

 6                           WITNESS:  LJUBISA BEARA [Resumed]

 7                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 8                           Cross-examination by Ms. Pack:

 9        Q.   Mr. Beara, you are serving a life sentence; right?

10        A.   It's not the last judgement.

11        Q.   This Tribunal found you beyond a reasonable doubt guilty of

12     persecution through murder and cruel inhumane treatment, guilty of

13     murder, guilty of extermination, guilty of genocide; correct?

14        A.   Yes, that was the finding of the Court.

15        Q.   And many of your associates in the VRS security administration

16     have been convicted.  Your superior, Tolimir, also convicted of genocide

17     in another trial.  You're aware of that?

18        A.   Yes, yes.  All that is well-known.

19        Q.   Security officer below you in the Drina Corps, Popovic, also

20     convicted of genocide?

21        A.   Yes.  You know that, of course.

22        Q.   I want to remind you of one question and one answer you gave in

23     your evidence in-chief.

24             MS. PACK:  Now I can read out the question in open session,

25     Your Honours, but I'll have to read out the answer in private session, so

Page 45796

 1     perhaps if you're bear with me I'll read out the question.

 2             So in response to the question on the last occasion:

 3             "During the war, did you ever author or read any VRS document

 4     that indicated that prisoners from Srebrenica would be, were being, or

 5     had been executed?

 6             You gave the following answer which we'll hear in private

 7     session, please.

 8             MS. PACK:  Could we move into private session.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

10             [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of  Chamber]

11             MS. PACK:

12        Q.   You gave this answer --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we are now in private session.

14             MS. PACK:  Thank you, Mr. President.

15        Q.   "I never authored an order of that kind, nor did I ever see such

16     an order in a written form.  It is also true that nobody ever orally

17     ordered me any such thing nor did I hear anybody order anybody else any

18     such thing."

19             You never gave, received, or heard any orders to execute

20     prisoners from Srebrenica.  That is not an honest answer, is it,

21     Mr. Beara?

22        A.   It is an honest answer.  You should know that, of course.

23        Q.   Do you recall what the Trial Chamber in your case said about you?

24     And let me read out a passage from the judgement.

25             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  Can we go back into

Page 45797

 1     public session, please.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  I'd like to hear from -- you're not asking to lift

 3     the confidentiality of the previous question and answer.

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  Not at this time, but I think that this question

 5     can be asked in public session.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  I think so.  Ms. Pack.

 7             MS. PACK:  There's no reason why the question can't be asked in

 8     public session, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Shall we go back to open session.

10             MS. PACK:

11        Q.   Do you --

12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

14             MS. PACK:

15        Q.   Do you recall what the Trial Chamber in your case said about you?

16     I'm going to quote from your judgement at paragraph 2165.  Said this:

17             "As chief of security in the VRS Main Staff, cloaked with the

18     authority of Mladic, he gave directions and orders to the subordinate

19     troops who implemented the murder plan.  It was the abuse of this senior

20     position within the VRS which allowed him to utilise the resources at his

21     disposal to orchestrate the crimes."

22             Do you recall the Trial Chamber's finding to that effect in your

23     case?

24        A.   Of course, I don't remember.  Who would remember?  That was

25     almost two years ago.  But I remember that a telegram was shown from the

Page 45798

 1     chief of the public security centre, Dragomir Vasic, where he writes that

 2     the MUP had taken over assignments from the army, that it surrounded and

 3     liquidated 8.000 Muslims.  And that was later --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not understand the verb.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 6             Could you repeat from where you referred to 8.000 Muslims?  The

 7     interpreters didn't hear you well.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can, I can.

 9             It's a telegram written by Dragomir Vasic, chief of the public

10     security centre at Zvornik.

11             MS. PACK:

12        Q.   What are you pulling out of your folder, please, on your desk?

13        A.   [In English] Sorry?

14        Q.   What are you pulling out and putting on the folder on your desk?

15        A.   [Interpretation] It's papers.  It's not a gun.

16        Q.   Would you put it, please, back?  Would you put it back, please?

17        A.   Why?  That's what I'm talking.

18             MR. OSTOJIC:  If I may object, and I'm not sure if I have right

19     to object.  I just think the Prosecution, will all due respect, doesn't

20     have a right to direct the witness as to what he should do.  I think

21     perhaps the request should be directed to the Chamber, and if the Court

22     believes he can't refer to rely on things, then so be it, the Court will

23     direct Mr. Beara, but I think it's unfair for the Prosecution to sternly

24     direct any witness, particularly a witness that was subpoenaed by this

25     Chamber.

Page 45799

 1             JUDGE KWON:  But it should be correct on the part of the witness

 2     to ask permission from the Bench before he consults any documents, in the

 3     circumstances in which we do not know what that document is about.

 4             MR. OSTOJIC:  And I understand that, Your Honour.  I think the

 5     confusion, and I'm not -- I think when he was asked to restate it, he was

 6     trying to refresh his recollection because he didn't catch fully what he

 7     stated about the document that he was referencing, so needs to apparently

 8     rely on it.  So he looked at it in order to answer fully the question by

 9     the Chamber.

10             In any event, I would object to the OTP's instructions to the

11     witness.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Beara, I would appreciate if could you answer

13     the question from your memory, and, if necessary, ask permission from the

14     Bench to consult the document to refresh your memory.

15             Do you understand that?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I understand, and I'm

17     sorry that I rifled through my papers.

18             At any rate, I said that this telegram exists which is in the

19     evidence in the case, a telegram from Dragomir Vasic, chief of the public

20     security centre of Zvornik who is linked to the Ministry of Interior,

21     saying that, due to the engagement of the VRS in the operation concerning

22     Zepa, the MUP forces took over assignments from the army, and that they

23     surrounded and liquidated 8.000 Muslims.  That's what I wanted to say.

24     That document was shown during the trial, and later in some magical way,

25     disappeared.

Page 45800

 1             MS. PACK:

 2        Q.   Mr. Beara --

 3        A.   Yes?

 4        Q.   -- I'm not asking about that specific documents in your case.  I

 5     meant to ask you, please, another -- I'm going ask you and remind you of

 6     another passage in your Trial Chamber's judgement about you, what they

 7     said in finding you guilty of genocide.  It's paragraph 1318 of the

 8     judgement.  They said this:

 9             "The factors which the Trial Chamber finds to be decisive in

10     finding that Beara had the requisite specific intent for genocide are the

11     scale and scope of the killing operation carried out with his knowledge

12     pursuant to his instructions and under his supervision, his extensive and

13     forceful participation in all components of the killing operation, his

14     demonstrated determination to kill as many as possible and his vital

15     contribution in overcoming hurdles and challenges to effective

16     implementation.  Further, the systematic, exclusive targeting of

17     Bosnian Muslims, the repetition by Beara of destructive and

18     discriminatory acts and his words all evidence his genocidal intent.

19     Further, his participation in these killings with knowledge that they

20     would contribute to the destruction of the group also demonstrates his

21     genocidal intent.  Accordingly, the Trial Chamber is satisfied beyond

22     reasonable doubt that Beara participated in the JCE to murder with

23     genocidal intent.  He is therefore guilty of genocide."

24             You don't accept that finding?

25        A.   I don't accept it at all.  It is, indeed, written, but that's not

Page 45801

 1     how it happened in that time.

 2        Q.   You don't --

 3        A.   We have led evidence to that effect, but, again, I say all that

 4     we presented disappeared in some magical way.  Why and how, I really

 5     don't know.

 6        Q.   Your Trial Chamber --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The Prosecutor is reading

 8     some paragraphs from the judgement and interpreters don't have the text

 9     of the judgement at their disposal at all.  Thank you.

10             MS. PACK:  We can have it at 65 ter 25863.  I wasn't going to

11     bring it up, but it's available there.  Paragraph 1318 that I just read

12     is an English page, 532; B/C/S, page 535.  I'm just going to refer to one

13     other small portion.

14             JUDGE KWON:  But please read it very slowly.

15             MS. PACK:  I will do.  Thank you, Mr. President.

16        Q.   Your Trial Chamber found -- and this is at paragraph 1068, it

17     found this:

18             "It found that the heavy hand of the security branch was evident

19     throughout -- throughout, that is the killing operations.  Beara, they

20     said, was at the centre of the killing operations with Popovic and

21     together you were responsible for overall planning and implementation

22     logistics, locations, personnel."

23             That's what they found.  They said that you translated the murder

24     plan into actions.  That is, together in Zvornik, Beara, Popovic, and

25     Nikolic translated the murder plan into actions.

Page 45802

 1             That is an accurate statement of your role in the Srebrenica

 2     events, isn't it?

 3        A.   No.  I don't know, in fact, what you're asking me.  Do you want

 4     me to confirm that I orchestrated the murders?

 5        Q.   In your final trial brief, in your own trial, you denied all

 6     knowledge at the time of the crimes perpetrated following the fall of

 7     Srebrenica.  Is that a position you maintain?

 8        A.   Of course.

 9             I would kindly ask the Trial Chamber for permission to get a

10     paper out of my file regarding these allegations of the Prosecutor.

11             MS. PACK:  I would ask that the witness just answer my question.

12     He's answered the question.  I've got another one.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, the question was whether you denied all

14     knowledge at the time of the crimes in your final brief, in your own

15     trial.  I think can you answer the question without having to rely on the

16     document.

17             MS. PACK:  Indeed, Mr. President, he has done.  He said, of

18     course.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I could not have known anything

20     about that at the time because I was not in the field.  However, some

21     other people were in the field, and you can see that from the intercepts

22     where Pavle and Vuk are talking about it, and this Pavle on our side, who

23     later very persistently and constantly claimed that I and my men had been

24     organisers of the killings and he knew nothing about it, he is calling

25     members of the Muslim unit that came behind the Zvornik Brigade lines.

Page 45803

 1     He is saying, I'll kill you in the woods, 100 men for one, and if that's

 2     not clear to you, go to Orahovac and surrender.  He didn't go -- he

 3     didn't say, Go to Beara and surrender; he said, Go to Orahovac.  And

 4     Orahovac is an execution site, if somebody doesn't know it.  That's what

 5     I heard during the trial.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 7             Yes, please continue, Ms. Pack.

 8             MS. PACK:

 9        Q.   Yes, Mr. Beara, I'm not asking about your analysis of the

10     evidence in your trial, just about you.

11             You -- you maintain then -- wait, please.

12        A.   Well, you are analysing this.

13        Q.   Wait, please.  You raise an alibi Defence in your trial - I think

14     you just referred to it - you said that you were in Belgrade between the

15     13th and 14th.  Is that something you still maintain?  13th and 14th of

16     July obviously.  Yes?

17        A.   Certainly.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness kindly speak much closer to

19     the microphone.  Thank you.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I said of course I was in

21     Belgrade.

22             MS. PACK:

23        Q.   And do you --

24             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Beara, you are requested by the interpreter to

25     come closer to the microphone.

Page 45804

 1             MS. PACK:

 2        Q.   Do you deny that thousands of men -- we don't need to be specific

 3     about the numbers.  Thousands of men were systematically murdered by

 4     Bosnian Serb forces following the fall of Srebrenica.  That's what your

 5     Trial Chamber found.  Do you deny that, the truth of that?

 6        A.   How can I deny the horrible things that happened in that civil

 7     war, religious war?  It is a curse, not warfare.  What happened was

 8     horrific --

 9        Q.   You recall --

10        A.   -- terrifying.  But in some magical way, in some mysterious way,

11     it was all pinned on three men from the security service of the VRS, men

12     who neither had the authority or subordinates who were murders and

13     prepared to kill.  That's what I wanted to say.

14        Q.   Your Trial Chamber found that you were omnipresent in the Zvornik

15     area, the scene of the mass killings in the Zvornik area.  You would

16     reject that finding too?

17        A.   Of course.  That's another mysterious or magical turn that this

18     affair took.

19             The Prosecution witnesses who were called to testify to my

20     presence, or the documents presented to the Court and admitted into

21     evidence, were of such a nature that it's simply difficult to believe

22     because these witnesses always see me alone at this execution site,

23     staring into the distance, lost in my own thoughts, or they see me

24     walking about and then they say -- or, rather, somebody tells them, This

25     is Beara.  But you never brought the person who told them that this

Page 45805

 1     person was Beara.  You only brought the people who recognised me, looking

 2     at my back, but you never brought that person who told the witnesses that

 3     who they were looking at was Beara.  There was this nurse who provided

 4     bandages somewhere to tie the hands of people who were being taken to be

 5     executed also said she had seen me at the execution site.  But the way

 6     she put it, it was the investigator who gave her my name.  What she

 7     actually said was that she had seen some lieutenant-colonel or colonel,

 8     and then she described me in various ways and then the investigator says,

 9     Could it be Beara?  And she replies, Yes, it could be.  I know that Beara

10     from the Drina Corps, from the time when I was in the Drina Corps.

11             And that's one of the cases.  There were more of the same kind.

12             MS. PACK:  I've got no further questions.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. Pack.

14             Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, Your Excellency.  Thank you.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE KWON:  Well, that concludes your evidence, Mr. Beara.  The

18     Chamber would like to thank you for your testimony.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I just say one more thing,

20     please.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Beara, what do you want to say to us?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I want to say this:  When our trial

24     was nearing the end, you were on the Trial Chamber, some people spoke at

25     the end --

Page 45806

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Beara --

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  -- you were examined by the accused and

 4     cross-examined by the Prosecution.  I think that's it.  I -- I thought

 5     you would say some words of usual things.  I appreciate it.  And I also

 6     thank Mr. Ostojic for his co-operation and assistance.

 7             MR. OSTOJIC:  [Microphone not activated] Thank you,

 8     Mr. President, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  You may be excused Mr. Beara.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President --

11             THE WITNESS:  May I go now?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Beara.

13             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, the next witness was scheduled for

14     a little bit later because of the estimate, so if we could take a break

15     and as soon as he arrives -- he was told to arrive at 10.00, I think he

16     may be here a little earlier but if we can take a break until he arrives.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we take a break for half an hour?  We will

18     resume at 10.00.  We will have some shorter break afterwards.

19             Hearing adjourned.

20                           [The witness withdrew]

21                           --- Break taken at 9.28 a.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 10.03 a.m.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Ostojic, the Chamber asked you to return to the

24     courtroom because there was one thing that I wanted to deal with in your

25     presence.  That's about the request of Mr. Robinson to lift the

Page 45807

 1     confidentiality of the part of evidence Mr. Beara gave in

 2     private session.

 3             So shall I hear from the Prosecution first whether it is in the

 4     position to make observation about that.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr.  President.  That's a very fair

 6     formulation whether we're in a position or not, and, in fact, my response

 7     implicates the question you were about to ask Mr. Ostojic because we had

 8     a discussion at the break.  I had actually envisaged that this issue

 9     would be resolved somewhat later in the proceedings for various reasons,

10     but under these circumstances, given the stage of the proceedings for the

11     witness, the nature of the testimony, and most particularly the fact that

12     I now know that Mr. Beara, Mr. Ostojic do not object.  In that case, the

13     Prosecution does not either.  But, of course, you'll need to hear from

14     Mr. Ostojic but I couldn't respond to the Court without alluding to the

15     discussion we had.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

17             Yes, Mr. Ostojic, you have the floor.

18             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you, Mr. President, Your Honours.

19             We have -- I have consulted with Mr. Beara, and we do not have an

20     objection to lifting the confidentiality that you raised, so ...

21             JUDGE KWON:  I appreciate that.  Thank you.

22             MR. OSTOJIC:  May I be excused?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

24             MR. OSTOJIC:  Thank you very much.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we bring the witness.

Page 45808

 1                           [The witness takes the stand]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, Mr. Mandic.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Before we continue, in light of the submission of

 5     the parties and counsel for Mr. Bera, we hereby lift the confidentiality

 6     of Mr. Bera's evidence given in private session, as well as the

 7     audio/video part of the proceedings.  Of course, that includes the part

 8     of today's hearing that was given -- conducted in private session as

 9     well.

10             Yes, Mr. Karadzic please continue.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Good morning, your

12     Excellencies.  Good morning to all.

13                           WITNESS:  BOSKO MANDIC [Resumed]

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Mandic.

17        A.   Good morning, Mr. President.

18        Q.   Please, let us just take this slowly and let us pause.

19             You were asked -- or, rather, it was suggested to you that links

20     with Pale were better than what you had said.  A decision on mobilisation

21     was shown here.  Did you see many documents before the corridor came to

22     exist?  How many documents from Pale did you examine at the Crisis Staff?

23        A.   Well, I, quite simply, forgot.  I mean, this document too.  But I

24     don't remember that there were any documents or contacts, and I said

25     yesterday that, as far as I'm concerned, there weren't any contacts.  I

Page 45809

 1     think that we worked more on the basis of our own knowledge rather than

 2     some instructions that could not have arrived from Pale.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  We submitted a document here from my diary when I met

 4     people from Prijedor on the first page -- or, rather, in the first

 5     sentence it says:

 6             "In relation to the 30th of May, the first 45 days without

 7     contact with us."

 8             How does that tally with your experience?

 9        A.   Well, that's the way it was.  If it was recorded as such, that is

10     certainly the way it was.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] D435, could that briefly be shown

13     to the witness.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   This is a record from a session of our government held on the

16     18th of June, 1992.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the last page, please.

18     The penultimate one in English, please.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   You said that there was a blockade in the Krajina.  Could you

21     tell us, please, third from the bottom, that a helicopter is requested

22     from the army and the government would use that.  And then the next one

23     says to do away with the blockade of the Bosanska Krajina, and the last

24     one, the government decided to take all measures, including military

25     measures, to deblockade the Bosnian Krajina and ensure regular food

Page 45810

 1     supplies and other goods for the region?

 2             Did the government have a basis for taking this kind of position

 3     with regard to developments in the Krajina?

 4        A.   Yes.  We were in a very awkward position.  We were sealed off as

 5     far as Serbia was concerned.  And, on the other side, the Cazin Krajina

 6     was armed and always prepared to attack Prijedor because they always

 7     thought that that was part of Muslim territory.

 8             The situation in the Krajina was such that there was barely any

 9     food, basic supplies.  Also, there was a shortage of medicine.  We know

10     of the case of the 12 babies.  Let me not go into all of that now.

11             How do I put this?  Some people were careless and that made that

12     happen.  And the international community could have made a step in that

13     direction at least through the Red Cross, in order to ensure some

14     medicine.  Of course, certain activities were taken to open the corridor

15     which was a life-line for the Serb people, in order for the Serb people

16     to survive.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us whether the Crisis Staff or other

18     authorities in Prijedor whether they had resources and then deprived the

19     population and detainees of that intentionally, and without any reason,

20     food, medicine energy, other resources --

21             JUDGE KWON:  Before you answer the question.

22             Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

23             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Sorry, the witness has made clear that he had

24     very little to do with the detention facilities.  So before asking about

25     depriving detainees of food, et cetera, a foundational question should be

Page 45811

 1     asked about the witness's knowledge about these matters.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm going to leave that aside.  I'm

 4     going to withdraw that as regards detainees.  I'm talking about the

 5     population.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Did the Crisis Staff do everything it could or they -- or did

 8     they intentionally deprive the population of something that they could

 9     have provided to them?

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all unnecessary

11     microphones please be switched off.  Thank you.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Crisis Staff never denied

13     anything.  In accordance with our abilities, we provided food to the

14     population, regardless of ethnicity.

15        A.   Since I was commander of civilian protection, ex officio, then

16     together with the Red Cross, and that was within my purview, in fact,

17     wherever necessary as far as bread, flour, milk, diary products were

18     concerned, we provided that to the population - and how do I put this? -

19     to the collection centre of Trnopolje and persons who did not have food

20     at home, et cetera.  So irrespective of ethnic background.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             Yesterday you mentioned a neighbouring village.  However, we did

24     not make it possible for you to finish.  A Muslim village that was in the

25     neighbourhood that was well armed, what was the name of that village?

Page 45812

 1     What happened to it?

 2        A.   That is Hambarine, the village of Carakovo, Zecovi.  So that is

 3     the belt above Tukovi where I lived.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know whether other Muslim villages, those that

 5     had handed over their weapons, whether they were attacked, whether they

 6     had any fighting there Suha, Vapolje [phoen].  Can you remember some

 7     others that were not involved in any kind of fighting?

 8        A.   For example, the village of Cela.  There was no fighting there;

 9     that is to say, people were loyal.  They handed over their weapons.  As a

10     matter of fact, I think that they even removed extremists from their

11     area.  They didn't want to have any contact with them.  For example, one

12     part is called Muslim Gomjenica.  Also in Tukovi, too.  There were no

13     problem there.  To this day, people live there.  I mean, they were

14     refugee for a while but they came back to their homes and that's where

15     they live now.

16        Q.   Muslimanska Gomjenica that is not reflected in the transcript?

17        A.   Yes, Muslimanska Gomjenica.

18        Q.   Gomjenica?

19        A.   We call it Gomjenica.

20        Q.   What about this village of Cela, how big is that?  What's the

21     population?

22        A.   Well, I'm not very good like this.  But like all the other

23     villages, Carakovo, Hambarine, so all of these villages are roughly --

24     well, it's very densely populated.  Like Hambarine, Cela has a densely

25     populated centre.

Page 45813

 1        Q.   Can you tell us what this depended on, whether there would be any

 2     fighting in a village?  Did it depend on whether they would be attacked

 3     or what?

 4        A.   It depended on the will of the population that lived there.  The

 5     Muslim population, I mean.  If they were really in favour of life and

 6     peace, remaining there in that area as neighbours, there was no problem

 7     whatsoever.  Even those who left asked their neighbours to take care of

 8     their homes, you see?  There were people who asked me to take care of

 9     their houses.  However, I was so busy that I could not take care of

10     anybody's house.  I mean, I cannot be at work and take care of somebody's

11     house, but there were people who were not working and who were neighbours

12     and who took care of their other neighbours' homes.

13        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Mandic.

14        A.   You're welcome.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

17             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I'd like to ask permission to re-cross-examine on

18     one point which was relating to the Muslim villages that -- the answer

19     about the Muslim villages for where there were no problems such as the

20     village of Cela.  I'd like to show the witness one document and ask one

21     question, please.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please proceed, Ms. Gustafson.

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you.  If we could have P3852, please.

25                           Further cross-examination by Ms. Gustafson:

Page 45814

 1        Q.   Mr. Mandic, this is, as you can see, a security assessment for

 2     Prijedor municipality by the SMB in Banja Luka dated the

 3     23rd of October, 1992.

 4             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could go to the next page, please.

 5        Q.   And in the second paragraph, it refers to:  The national division

 6     reached its climax in armed conflicts between the Serbian people which

 7     had taken power and the Muslim and Croat extremists on the other.

 8             The next line down, it says:  Dozens of villages have been almost

 9     completely destroyed and left uninhabited.  And then there's a long list

10     of villages.  And then it says:  Or partly destroyed.  And there's

11     another long list of village, including the village of Cela.

12             Now, that is the village which you claimed a moment ago -- for

13     which you claimed a moment ago there were no problems there to this day,

14     people lived there; correct?

15        A.   May I explain?

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At the moment when all of this was

18     happening in May and June 1992, I talked about that, afterwards, these

19     people asked to leave, and they did leave.  However, some neighbours took

20     care of their houses whereas others devastated their houses and sold

21     things from them.  Many people returned to Cela and live there to this

22     day.  Somebody should investigate that and see that that is indeed the

23     case.

24             Once a house is abandoned, it is very hard to take care of it, to

25     protect it from anyone, any citizen.  People drove tractors, carried

Page 45815

 1     rifles, took off windows, doors, whatever.  They'd come from a different

 2     municipality altogether and do that.  It was very hard to prevent that.

 3     So when a house is empty, then -- well, that's why the Crisis Staff said

 4     that abandoned property should be declared socially owned property so

 5     that people would realise that this should not be touched because it is

 6     state-owned property.

 7             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 8        Q.   So it's true, is it -- is it not, that the village of Cela was

 9     partly destroyed, as this document says?

10        A.   Partly destroyed, in terms of construction facilities, not on the

11     basis of war-time activity, but on the basis of peace-time activity by

12     the population.

13             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you.  I have no further questions.

14                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I just ask that we focus

16     additionally, just on one part of paragraph 3.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Paragraph 3 of this document?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  The one that's on the

19     screen.  It says:  As these people left, there began a massive looting of

20     their property which was left entirely unguarded by either the owners or

21     the municipal authorities.  The impotence of the official authorities to

22     do anything about this could be felt at that time."

23                           Further re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

24        Q.   [Interpretation] So, Mr. Mandic, how does this tally with your

25     own experience?  Did the authorities view this looting favourably?

Page 45816

 1        A.   Thank you for this paragraph, Mr. President, because it is

 2     responsive to the question put by the lady, the Prosecutor.  We never

 3     viewed this favourably.  Quite simply, the situation was such that I

 4     personally --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters did not understand the end of

 6     the sentence.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The times were such --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat your last sentence.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm saying that these were very

10     difficult times.  I didn't even dare watch what my neighbour was doing

11     and see what he was bringing from some Muslim village.  This would lead

12     to poor neighbourly relations and other consequences.  But we, in the

13     Crisis Staff, took other measures, and we asked the organs of the

14     civilian police, the military police, to protect these buildings as best

15     they could.  Since a front line was opened towards the corridor, many

16     conscripts had to go to the front line and, quite simply, those who even

17     promised that they would take care of the houses did not manage to do

18     that.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't have anything else.

20                           Questioned by the Court:

21             JUDGE KWON:  So is it your evidence, Mr. Mandic, that the partial

22     destruction in the village of Cela was due to construction works which

23     took place after the people left?

24        A.   Devastation by the population that had stayed on, the Serb

25     population, not because of war activity.  It wasn't that somebody used

Page 45817

 1     tanks to destroy that.  It was the people themselves who devastated these

 2     houses and then took the material back to build their own houses.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  But the last sentence of the paragraph in which Cela

 4     was mentioned, which you saw earlier on, says like this, I quote:

 5             "This destruction saw the beginning of mass exodus of both

 6     Muslims and Croats."

 7             Is it consistent with your memory, Mr. Mandic?

 8        A.   People started moving out even before that.  People started

 9     moving out of Prijedor already in February, March, April.  First it was

10     women, children, and the elderly who took buses and tried to leave in

11     some way.  And the extremists stayed on in Prijedor and, of course, if

12     somebody went into the wood, their house would remain empty, and such a

13     house could not be protected.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             JUDGE KWON:  That concludes your evidence, Mr. Mandic.  On behalf

17     of the Chamber, I'd like to thank you for your coming to The Hague to

18     give it.  You are now free to go.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much indeed.

20                           [The witness withdrew]

21             JUDGE KWON:  Next witness is Mr. Sipovac.

22             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

23                           [The witness entered court]

24             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, Mr. Sipovac.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 45818

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Would you make the solemn declaration, please.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 3     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 4                           WITNESS:  CEDO SIPOVAC

 5                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please be seated and make yourself

 7     comfortable.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.

10                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Sipovac.

12        A.   Good morning.

13        Q.   Please let us take care to leave a short pause between questions

14     and answers and speak more slowly.  We are from Herzegovina and speak

15     very fast but then we have problems with the interpretation.

16             Have you given a statement to my Defence team?

17        A.   Yes, Mr. President.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D9663 is the document I would like

19     to show the witness in e-court.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Look at the screen.  The Serbian version is on the left side.  Do

22     you see your statement?

23        A.   Yes, I see a part of it; three paragraphs on the first page.

24        Q.   Have you read and signed this statement?

25        A.   Yes.  But I should now like to ask you about these words, "To

Page 45819

 1     establish the VTO."

 2             It's paragraph 3, line 3.  It says:

 3             "To establish the VTO," but it should actually be, "to man, or to

 4     fill the VTO," because the establishment was decided by a previous

 5     decision.

 6        Q.   Oh, you mean that the VTOs that had been formed earlier were

 7     filled with personnel?

 8        A.   Correct.

 9        Q.   So you want to make the correction that this text should read:

10             "The earlier formed VTOs were filled with personnel"?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Does the rest of the statement faithfully reflect what you've

13     told the Defence team?

14        A.   On page 2, there is a typo.  It's not the "VP 3673," but

15     "VP 3670," and later, it should be "VP 3662."

16        Q.   Do you want to repeat that?

17        A.   Page 2, line 3, the number should change.  "3670" and later

18     "7362."

19        Q.   Is the rest of the statement correct?

20        A.   Paragraph 10.  It's not year "1992" but it's "1991."  Line 1 of

21     that sentence.  I cannot remember the date, but it's "1991," not "1992."

22        Q.   Is that page 4 in Serbian?

23        A.   Yes, paragraph 10.

24        Q.   So you just want to change the year from "1992" into "1991"?

25        A.   Yes.  From what I can see, the rest is correct.

Page 45820

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we show the last page so the

 2     witness can identify his signature.

 3             [In English] Last page in Serbian, please.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Is this your signature?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to put to you the same questions today as

 8     those asked by the members of my Defence team, would your answers be

 9     essentially the same?

10        A.   Essentially I would not change anything.  I would only provide

11     additional explanation, if necessary.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tendered this statement under

14     Rule 92 ter.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have any objections, Ms. Iodice [sic]?

16             MS. PELIC:  Pelic, Your Honours.  And good morning, Your Honours.

17             No objection.  However, we would like to note that some of the

18     questions in this statement are formulated in a leading fashion and also

19     some of them invite the witness to draw conclusions on legal issues; for

20     instance, questions 6, 12, 13 and 14 are obviously leading questions and

21     the last three are also asking for witness to draw legal conclusions so

22     that should go to the weight of the evidence.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE KWON:  My apologies, Ms. Pelic.  Sometimes that happens.

24             We'll admit it.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D4230, Your Honours.

Page 45821

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I will now read a brief

 3     summary of Mr. Cedo Sipovac's statement in English.

 4             [In English] Cedo Sipovac was an official in the

 5     Secretariat for the People's Defence in Prijedor.

 6             Cedo Sipovac noticed in 1991 that the political situation in

 7     Yugoslavia was becoming more complicated and that the constitution and

 8     orders of the SFRY Presidency were not being fully respected.  This was

 9     highlighted when instructions arrived from the Republican Secretariat for

10     the National Defence in BH which banned the secretariats from mobilising

11     war units.  However, in the same document, instructions were provided for

12     how to carry out the mobilisation.

13             To Cedo Sipovac's knowledge, all appointments and replacements in

14     the JNA were done in accordance with the regulations valid at the time

15     and that there was no planned replacement of personnel.  He noted that

16     people of all ethnicities responded to the call-up in 1991.  Cedo Sipovac

17     does not agree with the claims of witnesses that Muslims were issued with

18     inferior weapons and that the Serbs with automatic rifles is not correct.

19             Cedo Sipovac recalls that at some point in 1992, a crowd gathered

20     in the front of the building of the Secretariat of National Defence in

21     Prijedor, which, to his knowledge, had been organised by the

22     Patriotic League.  They wished to take the documentation from the

23     secretariat to avoid their use for the call-up of conscripts.

24             Further, on 30th May, 1992, he is aware that the Muslims attacked

25     the urban area of Prijedor and several members of the army and police

Page 45822

 1     were wounded, some killed.

 2             Cedo Sipovac was not aware of the Crisis Staffs, any civilian

 3     authorities, or the police in the municipalities serving as an engine or

 4     means for the permanent removal through genocide, persecution,

 5     extermination, murders, deportations and inhumane acts of Bosnian Muslims

 6     and Croats from those territories of BH to which the Serbs laid claim.

 7             Cedo Sipovac was not aware of any camps in the Prijedor area.  He

 8     knew of two investigation centres in Omarska and Keraterm.  He was also

 9     aware of a collection centre in Trnopolje where people voluntarily

10     visited and stayed until they left Prijedor because they felt unsafe.

11             And at that moment, I do not have additional questions for

12     Mr. Sipovac.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             Mr. Sipovac, as you have noted that your evidence in-chief in

15     this case has been admitted in writing; that is, through your written

16     statement in lieu of your oral testimony.  Now you will be cross-examined

17     by the representative of the Office of the Prosecutor.

18             You understand that?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand.  But when

20     Mr. Karadzic read out this here, he repeated that year, 1992.  But it's

21     actually 1991.  I'm sorry to make this correction again, but it's really

22     wrong in the text.

23             JUDGE KWON:  I appreciate it very much.  Thank you.

24             And, Mr. Sipovac, I like -- I wanted to tell you that at any

25     moment when you feel uncomfortable, please let us know.  We'll take a

Page 45823

 1     break whenever necessary.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for your understanding.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Pelic, please proceed.

 4             MS. PELIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5                           Cross-examination by Ms. Pelic:

 6        Q.   Mr. Sipovac, first, I would really briefly like to deal with the

 7     roles that you had and to clarify that issue.

 8             According to the paragraph 2 of your statement, from

 9     September 1984 until October 1991, you worked at the

10     Secretariat of National Defence in Prijedor as a clerical officer for

11     civil protection; correct?

12        A.   I'm sorry, the interpretation just began with the words

13     "September 1984," and I didn't hear what you said before that.  So I

14     heard in my headset the part where you say "from September 1984," but

15     what exactly?

16             Could you repeat that?  I didn't hear the entire interpretation.

17        Q.   No problem I will repeat again.

18             I would very briefly like to clarify the roles that you had.

19     According to the paragraph 2 of your statement, from September 1984 until

20     October 1991, you worked at the Secretariat of National Defence in

21     Prijedor as a clerical officer for civilian protection; correct?

22        A.   Correct.

23        Q.   And in your statement, you repeatedly state that you were a

24     clerical officer for the recruitment and mobilisation of conscripts under

25     the military territorial organ, which is also short as VTO.

Page 45824

 1             Sir, but, in fact, you were not just a clerical officer.  You

 2     were the chief of the military territorial organ for mobilisation at the

 3     Prijedor garrison, weren't you?

 4        A.   No, I was not the chief.  I was the assistant.  At VTO, I was

 5     never a chief.  The chief was Major Mile Stojanovic; he was chief of

 6     section.  And my direct superior in affairs of mobilisation was

 7     Captain Micic.  I worked there in that section from September 1984 until

 8     August 1992, at the VTO, if you're talking about the VTO.

 9        Q.   You know Slavko Budimir, who, starting from the take-over of

10     Prijedor on 30th of April, 1992, was the secretary of the municipal

11     Secretariat for National Defence, don't you?

12        A.   Yes, I know Slavko.

13             MS. PELIC:  Could we please call up 65 ter 25872.

14        Q.   And if we could go to page 1 -- transcript page 12859, lines 17

15     and 18.  Transcript page 12859.

16             This is the testimony of Slavko Budimir in the Prosecutor versus

17     Stakic case, and when asked about your role, Mr. Budimir testified that

18     you were the chief of the VTO for mobilisation at the Prijedor garrison.

19     And that's correct, isn't it?

20             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Probably the witness doesn't

22     understand English and you better tell the witness what this is about.

23             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

24             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, we would be objecting to any

25     reference to this transcript or the testimony of Mr. Budimir, because we

Page 45825

 1     have made a -- a motion for a subpoena for Mr. Budimir to be a Defence

 2     witness.  And on the 22nd of January, 2013, the decision on accused's

 3     motion to subpoena Slavko Budimir, the Trial Chamber denied that motion.

 4     So we think it's unfair for the Prosecution to be able to use any portion

 5     of Mr. Budimir's evidence without us having had the right to bring him

 6     here.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Could you expand on the reason why it would be

 8     unfair.

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  Because we have asked for

10     Mr. Budimir to come and testify, probably he already would have

11     testified, and then we would have had a chance -- or any issues about his

12     position about this witness's position or anything he said to have been

13     fully explored.  But now if you allow the Prosecution to use this

14     evidence without us having been able to call the witness, even though

15     this may be a minor point in principle, we don't believe that the

16     Prosecution should be able to use evidence from witnesses who we were

17     denied the opportunity to call.  You might recall this came --

18             JUDGE KWON:  I can understand your objection if the Prosecution

19     is minded to tender this document.  This was -- the transcript into

20     evidence, but she is just putting the question about witness's position

21     at the time, and --

22             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, she's making use of evidence that

23     essentially is not available to us.  So in --

24             JUDGE KWON:  I don't understand that this is not available to

25     you.

Page 45826

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, the witness and his evidence is not

 2     available to us because we tried to call this witness and you denied us

 3     the right to call him.  That's my point.

 4             This issue came up once before with respect to

 5     Mr. Tomo Sivic [phoen], a military judge whose document was attempted to

 6     be used, and you denied the subpoena and you allowed the Prosecution to

 7     proceed.  But I wanted to maintain our objection, if nothing else but in

 8     principle, that when a witness is not available to us because the Chamber

 9     denied a subpoena, the Prosecution ought not to be able to ask questions

10     about events involving that witness.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I understand that.  But would you like to make

12     any observations, Ms. Pelic?

13             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

14             MR. TIEGER:  May I, Mr. President.  First, may I respectfully

15     suggest that when Mr. Robinson knows that the issue has been ruled on

16     before, that if he wants simply to maintain his objection, which is

17     really not necessary, I believe.  We crossed that road before.  He

18     acknowledges that the Trial Chamber has expressed its opinion on this

19     issue and simply notes that, rather than impliedly seek reconsideration

20     without acknowledging that until the Trial Chamber presses him on the

21     issue.

22             Secondly, apart from the fact that the Trial Chamber has ruled on

23     it, the Trial Chamber's ruling was perfectly correct.  The observations

24     that you made this morning, Mr. President, underpin that.  Let's hear

25     what the witness has to say.  His position may very well be, That's

Page 45827

 1     exactly right.  And we either get further evidence and information

 2     which -- to which this Court is entitled, or we prevent a witness from

 3     being able to testify contrary to information that has been elicited in

 4     this institution before, without knowledge of the Trial Chamber.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber agrees with Mr. Tieger's observation.

 7     There's no difficulty at all with the Prosecution putting this transcript

 8     to the witness.

 9             Please -- please continue, Ms. Pelic.

10             MS. PELIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

11        Q.   Mr. Sipovac, Slavko Budimir testified in the Prosecutor versus

12     Stakic case, and I will quote now.  When asked about your role,

13     Mr. Budimir testified:

14             "He was the chief of the military territorial organ for

15     mobilisation at the Prijedor garrison."

16             That's correct, sir?

17        A.   No, that's not correct.  And in my previous answer, I said that I

18     was never the chief of the military territorial organ in Prijedor.  The

19     chief was Milivoj Stojanovic and his assistant for mobilisation was, I

20     believe, Captain Jovan Micic.  That was a long time ago, and I was a desk

21     officer working on mobilisation affairs at the VTO in Prijedor, and that

22     organ covered the area of Prijedor, Sanski Most, Bosanska Dubica, and

23     Novi Grad.  Those are the municipalities covered by the VTO based in

24     Prijedor.  I don't think I need to repeat this anymore because I have

25     already given a solemn declaration to tell the truth and nothing but the

Page 45828

 1     truth.  I don't know why Mr. Budimir stated something like this.  I did

 2     not expect such questions so I did not bring my personal documentation,

 3     and I could have, because I have all my letters of appointment.  I can

 4     provide them to the Court.

 5        Q.   Very well.  You acknowledge in your statement under question

 6     number 9 that you attended the 15th of May, 1992, meeting of the

 7     Council for National Defence of the Prijedor Municipal Assembly where you

 8     reported on the mobilisation, didn't you?

 9        A.   I'm not sure it was on the 15th because in some previous trials,

10     Defence teams told me that my name was mentioned as one of those present.

11     I don't remember it, but I was present perhaps only in situations when

12     briefing was provided on mobilisation, otherwise I would not attend.  But

13     these meetings discussing national defence discussed issues of

14     mobilisation, which was very topical at the time.

15             MS. PELIC:  Could we please call up P03529.

16             And can I correct the transcript:  P03529.

17        Q.   Sir, these are the -- the minutes of the 4th meeting of the

18     Council for National Defence of the Prijedor Municipal Assembly held on

19     15th of May, 1992, that I just mentioned to you.  And if you look at the

20     list of people attending, you will see your name noted as present.

21     That's correct?  Just yes or no.

22        A.   Cedo Sipovac, yes, I see it.

23        Q.   And if you look at the agenda, under item 2, it's "mobilisation

24     in the municipality."

25             MS. PELIC:  And if we could go in English on the page 2, please,

Page 45829

 1     and B/C/S, it's still page 1.  Last paragraph in B/C/S.

 2        Q.   Sir, your name is mentioned there as one of the persons involved

 3     in the discussion on the mobilisation in the Prijedor municipality;

 4     correct?

 5        A.   I didn't understand.  It says "conclusions."  We're still on the

 6     first page.  The proposal -- the proposed decision on the organisation

 7     and functioning of the Crisis Staff is accepted with a proviso that the

 8     proposed composition of the staff is supplemented with the representative

 9     of the garrison, Prijedor.

10             Yes.  And then we -- yes, mobilisation and then I see my name.

11     Sorry, I took time to read this text.

12             Yes, the last in the third line is my name.  I agree.

13        Q.   And this is, indeed, the meeting that we are discussing on the

14     15th of May, 1992, at which you reported on the mobilisation; correct?

15     Just yes or no.

16        A.   Probably.  I had no other role in that, except to discuss the

17     carrying out of mobilisation.

18        Q.   And this mobilisation that happened in May 1992 in the Prijedor

19     municipality was conducted pursuant to the decision of the

20     Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina Assembly; right?

21        A.   I did not receive any interpretation.  I can't understand

22     English, and I did not receive any interpretation.

23        Q.   Sir, are you receiving translation now?

24        A.   Yes.  That mobilisation was not ordered by the autonomous region.

25     Mobilisation was an ongoing process, which started in 1991, and it lasted

Page 45830

 1     for as long as the need to replenish war units existed.  It went on

 2     throughout 1991 and 1992.  I'm not familiar with any orders.  The only

 3     order I am familiar with was the order that was issued on the

 4     21st of May.  That process was ongoing.  It was a process that went on

 5     uninterruptedly.  I really don't know what mobilisation order you are

 6     talking about.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter notes:  The word was

 8     "uninterruptedly."

 9             MS. PELIC:  Could we please call up P03535.

10        Q.   Sir, these are the minutes of the second session of the

11     National Defence Council of the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor held on

12     5th of May, 1992.

13             If you could please take a look at a conclusion number 2, it's on

14     page 1, both in English and B/C/S.

15             It states and I will --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Do we see his name here as being present?

17             MS. PELIC:  No, he was not present.

18             JUDGE KWON:  All right.  Please continue.

19             MS. PELIC:

20        Q.   I will quote the conclusion number 2:

21             "The mobilisation orders following from the decision of the

22     Autonomous Region of Bosanska Krajina Assembly are to be carried out,

23     when the actual situation in the municipality renders it necessary, in

24     accordance with requirements and a special plan, through call-up papers

25     issued by the Municipal Secretariat for National Defence."

Page 45831

 1             And, in fact, this just shows that mobilisation was carried out

 2     pursuant to the decision of the Autonomous Region Bosanska Krajina

 3     Assembly, wasn't it?

 4        A.   You're asking me something that we can read here.  But I was not

 5     in charge of mobilisation.  I didn't participate in that mobilisation.  I

 6     did not receive any such decisions or order either from the chief or

 7     anybody else.  This was a position of the council which considered

 8     mobilisation, and it was its right.  I don't know how it happened.  This

 9     is what you're saying.  This is what I read here, but I don't know.  I

10     can't comment upon this because I don't know.  I didn't -- I don't know.

11     I didn't participate in that.  I didn't work on that.  I told you when I

12     received the mobilisation order on the 21st of May,

13     2002 [as interpreted], that was an order for general mobilisation, which

14     I received from my superior officers.

15        Q.   But on the 15th of May, 1992, you were at the meeting, the fourth

16     meeting of this council, and you reported on the mobilisation.  You just

17     confirmed that, and that's the truth; correct?

18        A.   Madam, I confirmed that, and I repeat -- I repeat mobilisation

19     was a continuous process.  It was an ongoing process from the moment when

20     received a -- a mobilisation signal.  It went on until there was a need

21     to replenish war units.  It started in 1991 and went on throughout 1992,

22     1993, 1994, and so on and so forth.  I told you what I knew; i.e., I

23     shared with you the information that I had about the situation on the

24     ground, and this is what I stand by.  But this was not done pursuant to

25     this decision but, rather, pursuant to the requirements of the units.

Page 45832

 1     And I apologise for using the word "insist," but you insist upon me

 2     telling that this was what I had in my hands, but, no, I didn't.  That

 3     was never issued to me from my superior officers.

 4        Q.   I will move to another topic that I wish to discuss with you.

 5             In your statement, under questions 5 and 6, you stated that you

 6     don't have any facts about anyone replacing Muslim officers by Serbian

 7     officers, including replacement of Colonel Muharem Efendic by Serbian

 8     officer Colonel Vladimir Radisic, in "a planned fashion with a purpose."

 9     Let's look at a couple of examples.  On the day of the take-over of

10     Prijedor, 30th of April, 1992, secretary of the Secretariat for National

11     Defence, Becir Medunjanin, was replaced by Slavko Budimir, wasn't he?

12        A.   According to you, yes; and according to the documents that I

13     have, yes.  I didn't know about that, but that had nothing whatsoever to

14     do with what I did.  I was a member of the armed forces of the JNA, and I

15     can tell you that had nothing whatsoever to do with anything.  I

16     apologise.  Don't switch off my microphone.  That had nothing to do with

17     the part of the armed forces and the army.  That was the Secretariat for

18     National Defence which was in charge of civilian structures and here

19     we're talking about the issue whether there were any shakeups in the

20     army.  I'm claiming that there were no shakeups in the army, as far as I

21     know, and when I was appointed chief, that was never done.  And there are

22     actually examples to the contrary.

23        Q.   Sir, Becir Medunjanin was a Muslim; right?

24        A.   It is not a pleasant thing to talk about somebody's ethnic

25     affiliations without that person confirming that, but I will accept what

Page 45833

 1     you say, that he was a Muslim.

 2             I know Becir Medunjanin personally and that's why I say what I

 3     do.  I used to know him.

 4        Q.   And, indeed, Slavko Budimir was a Serb; correct?

 5        A.   You said he was.  Well, I suppose he still is.  I don't know

 6     whether he changed his ethnic affiliations.  But I'm telling you that it

 7     is not a good thing to comment upon somebody's ethnic affiliations

 8     without consulting with that person first.

 9        Q.   Well, also Vahid Ceric was dismissed from the post of assistant

10     commander for the organisation of mobilisation and personnel affairs by

11     the Executive Committee of the Serbian municipality of Prijedor on

12     5th of May, 1992, wasn't he?

13        A.   Madam, your basic question was about the army, and I told you

14     that there were no such things in the army, i.e., in war units.  What

15     you're asking me now are questions that pertain to civilian structures.

16     If you're talking about the executive board, that was within its purview.

17     It was not within the purview of the JNA or the army.  It was within the

18     purview of the structures, and I really can't comment upon that because

19     it is not pleasant for me to comment on that because I wasn't there.  I

20     did not participate in that process.  If there were any such things - I

21     suppose that there were - there must be a document to that effect, but

22     that had nothing to do with my job.  It had nothing to do with war units,

23     with the JNA, and armed forces, and this was done within the purview of

24     civilian structures.  That was what they did.  And why things like that

25     were done, I don't know.

Page 45834

 1             MS. PELIC:  Could we please call up P03554.

 2        Q.   Sir, this is the Serbian municipality of

 3     Prijedor Executive Committee decision dated 5th of May, 1992, signed by

 4     the president of the Executive Committee, Dr. Milan Kovacevic.

 5             Item 1 of this decision states that Vahid Ceric is dismissed from

 6     his post.

 7             And item 2 states that Major Radmilo Zeljaja shall be responsible

 8     for the implementation of this decision.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  Asked and answered.

10     The witness does not know anything about what was going on in the

11     civilian structure of power.

12             JUDGE KWON:  He might be refreshed by this document.

13             MS. PELIC:  And I haven't asked my question yet.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Please -- please continue.  Objection overruled.

15             MS. PELIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

16        Q.   Sir, Major Radmilo Zeljaja who was in charge of implementing this

17     decision that we are looking at was in the 43rd Motorised Brigade;

18     correct?

19        A.   According to this decision, that was the case.  I'm not a lawyer

20     but this is a confusion of authorities.  Zeljaja couldn't deal with that.

21     I am familiar with this part of a job, given what I did.  I don't know

22     why something drafted this.  I won't go into that.  But this should not

23     have been written.

24             The executive board, and I can explain, I'm not a lawyer by

25     profession but I can see that these are two totally different bodies

Page 45835

 1     which have nothing whatsoever to do with each other.  The president of

 2     the executive board is under the authority of civilian structures and the

 3     Assembly.  And what about the authorities of the TO?  The civilian

 4     structures appointed employees and officers in TO Staffs, and

 5     Radmilo Zeljaja, who was a major and who was my commander and my superior

 6     later on, had nothing to do with that.  The army and -- and the civilian

 7     structures could not overlap.  If it happened later, then, yes.  But

 8     since it happened when it did, knowing what I did from -- knowing what I

 9     knew from practice, and formally and legally these are two completely

10     different bodies.  You can't be tasked with doing something if you're in

11     the army, and to be tasked with things such as appointments.  Those were

12     within the purview of civilian structure.  And Vahid Ceric, whom I know,

13     worked in the TO Staff.  He was one of the officers in the TO, and

14     Radmila Zeljaja was in the JNA, and there the authorities are completely

15     different.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to slow down.

17     Thank you.

18             MS. PELIC:

19        Q.   Sir, the interpreters are kindly asking you to slow down when

20     you're providing your answers.

21        A.   I apologise.  I apologise.  I can repeat, if necessary.

22        Q.   There's no need to repeat the answer.

23             So, contrary to your position, this is one more example of

24     replacement based on ethnicity, isn't it?

25        A.   For the third time, I repeat.  I do not want to provide such

Page 45836

 1     comments here because it is not a proper thing to talk about somebody's

 2     ethnic affiliations based on names.  It may be done in some cultures but

 3     I'm not willing to do that.  There were no examples in the army where I

 4     worked of such a nature.  If you want me to provide evidence to the

 5     contrary, I can.  Such things didn't happen.  I don't want to comment

 6     upon this.  I don't want to say, I don't want to confirm that this was

 7     based on ethnic affiliations.  I don't want to comment upon that because

 8     I cannot recognise that pattern in that, because you can't say that this

 9     was based on ethnic affiliations.

10             Please.  Tell me if you can, why do you think that it was done on

11     ethnic affiliations?  Because Vahid is Vahid?  I don't see any

12     explanation.  I don't see a statement of reasons that would point to that

13     fact.  And I can't confirm your assertion that this was done based on

14     ethnic affiliation.

15        Q.   Sir, Vahid Ceric is a Muslim; right?

16        A.   Madam, you are persistent.  You're trying to convince me of

17     something that I can't accept.  I can understand that you are judging by

18     the name, but I don't see it in the document.  I knew Vahid, I worked

19     with him, I co-operated with him, but I don't want to -- to approach the

20     problem in such a way.  I cannot confirm that he was removed because he

21     was a Muslim.  I don't know that he was a Muslim.  I don't know whether

22     he declared himself as a Muslim.  I have never held in my hands any

23     document in which it says that he, himself, declared as a Muslim.  If you

24     ask me similar questions in the future, then I can share with you my own

25     personal reasons for believing that you are wrong and why this is not so.

Page 45837

 1        Q.   Sir, I would like to deal with the last topic.

 2             In your statement, pages 6 to 8, you stated that you have no

 3     knowledge about the crimes that happened in the Prijedor municipality,

 4     according to the indictment in this case.  You also stated that had this

 5     had been the policy of the civilian or police authorities at a local or

 6     municipal level, the defence structures would have known about it.

 7             Well, this Trial Chamber has received a large amount of evidence

 8     of the crimes committed in the Prijedor municipality.  We just talked

 9     about replacement of your colleague, Becir Medunjanin.  The Trial Chamber

10     has heard the evidence that he was tortured and killed in the Omarska

11     camp.

12             MS. PELIC:  And for the benefit of the Court and the accused,

13     that can be found at confidential P00707, transcript page 2728 and 2730

14     to 2738.

15        Q.   Sir, you are aware of the fate of the head of the organisation

16     that you used to work for, aren't you?

17        A.   I am aware of it from what you have told me.  I really didn't

18     know about that before.

19             What I would say as a human being about him that he was very fair

20     in dealings with myself.  In terms of humanity, he was very fair in the

21     dealings with me.  I'm sorry that he ended up like that.  I didn't know.

22     Sometimes when I watch television I hear the family name Medunjanin, and

23     I thought that I might get in contact with that man because I thought

24     that that may be his son who plays football.  He was chief of secretariat

25     when I left the secretariat, and he was very fair when he offered me to

Page 45838

 1     help -- that he would help me if I had any problems.  He was a very fair

 2     person, and I'm sorry that he ended up the way he did.

 3        Q.   Sir, this Trial Chamber has also heard evidence that

 4     Mr. Medunjanin's wife, Sadeta Medunjanin, was taken out from the Omarska

 5     camp and subsequently exhumed from a mass grave.

 6             MS. PELIC:  And again, for the benefit of the Court and accused,

 7     that can be found at Exhibit P03538, pages 28 to 29; Exhibit P04855,

 8     page 23; and Exhibit P04853, page 15.

 9        Q.   Sir, you are aware of this, aren't you?

10        A.   I don't see the document.  I only see that those documents are

11     mentioned in English.  I don't know about his wife.  I really don't know.

12     I can't talk about things I don't know.  I can only say that I'm sorry,

13     not only for them, but for anybody.

14             I don't have the translation of the documents that you have just

15     mentioned, and I heard you saying that the body of his wife was exhumed.

16     I don't have any of the documents.  I'm not aware of any of the

17     documents.  I don't know what happened, and I don't have the references

18     to those documents translated into my own language.

19        Q.   Sir, I was just citing to the evidence before this Trial Chamber

20     and without intending to call it up.

21             My question was:  Are you aware that Sadeta Medunjanin was killed

22     and subsequently taken from Omarska camp and subsequently exhumed?  You

23     were aware of that, aren't you?

24        A.   I apologise, I didn't understand your question.  While you were

25     providing your comments within that context you said that that happened.

Page 45839

 1     The question was not put to -- put to me that way or I didn't understand

 2     it.  After what you just said, I understand.  You claimed that this was

 3     established here during the trial, but I can tell you that I didn't know

 4     about that, believe me.

 5        Q.   You also talk about the knowledge of the defence structures, of

 6     the crimes happening in the Prijedor municipality.

 7             MS. PELIC:  Could we please call up P03662.

 8        Q.   Sir, this is the 1st Krajina Corps Command regular combat report

 9     sent to the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina Army Main Staff on

10     31st of May, 1992.

11             MS. PELIC:  And if we could go to page 2 of English and page 3 of

12     B/C/S.

13        Q.   If you could take a look at the last paragraph in B/C/S.  And, in

14     English, it's the middle paragraph.

15             And according to this document, the 1st Krajina Corps Command

16     reported that:

17             "After the actions in Kozarac, Kljuc and Sanski Most, some

18     conscripts of Muslim nationality had asked to be released from their

19     units and had expressed their dissatisfaction with the massive

20     destruction of their towns."

21             Sir, as it is clear from this document, the defence structures

22     were well aware of the mass destruction of Kozarac, weren't they?

23        A.   Please bear with me.  I'm reading.

24             You referred to questions 7 and 8; right?

25        Q.   No --

Page 45840

 1        A.   Let me see --

 2        Q.   -- I'm referring to pages 6 to 8 of your statement, sir.  And

 3     questions are 11, 12, 13, 14, 15.  And everything under "incidents in the

 4     indictment."

 5        A.   Yes, in the report of the command of the 1st Corps that you have

 6     shown to me, I believe that it would be wrong not to have drafted such a

 7     report, but this is a report on the situation on the ground, and it is

 8     only normal that the report was drafted.  It is not normal what was

 9     happening but it is normal that a report was drafted in the way it was

10     and that it was sent to the superior command.  It's the --

11        Q.   Sir -- sir, that was not my question.

12        A.   -- knowledge or this information of the things that were

13     happening on the ground.

14             Please, please, you asked -- I apologise.  You offered me to

15     provide an answer about the state of morale and to tell you something

16     about the system of reporting and about the state of the morale and you

17     quoted --

18        Q.   Sir --

19        A.   -- the place where --

20        Q.   I will stop you there, sir, and I will repeat my question again.

21        A.   Please, please.

22        Q.   My --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  I think he was coming to the

24     question -- to the question -- to -- to -- to answer to the question you

25     have put.

Page 45841

 1             Yes, please continue.  But, in the future, please make your

 2     answer simpler.

 3             Yes, please proceed.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I tried to be simple,

 5     but I was looking for the questions that were put to me in the statement

 6     to which I answered, and the question as put to me here whether the

 7     Crisis Staffs in --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  This is impossible to interpret.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Did they have knowledge -- or,

10     rather, that I had knowledge that the civilian structures did that and

11     that did they know, and so on and so forth, the system of defence I

12     provided an answer --

13             JUDGE KWON:  You are speaking too fast, far too fast for the

14     interpreters to catch up.

15             So I will ask Ms. Pelic to put her question again and if you

16     could answer the question.

17             Yes, Ms. Pelic.

18             MS. PELIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

20             MS. PELIC:

21        Q.   Sir, my question was really simple, and I would really kindly ask

22     you to give a simple answer.

23             This combat report of the 1st Krajina Corps shows that the

24     defence structures were well aware of the destruction -- of the mass

25     destruction of Kozarac; correct?

Page 45842

 1        A.   This report shows that -- it says so in the report but in the way

 2     you formulated your question you said something else.  There were no

 3     planned activities, and that's the answer that -- that I gave.  To the

 4     system of the defence, there were no planned activities.  And as for what

 5     happened on the ground --

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I be -- I have an objection.

 7     The report says what the soldiers of the Army of Republika Srpska Muslim

 8     ethnicity think about the destruction.  This is the position of -- so we

 9     have to be precise when putting questions to the witness.

10             JUDGE KWON:  No, I don't see the basis for your objection.

11             Yes, please continue, Ms. Pelic.

12             MS. PELIC:  Thank you, Your Honour.

13        Q.   Sir, let's take a look at one more example of what the defence

14     structures knew.

15             MS. PELIC:  Could we please call up D02040.

16             JUDGE KWON:  What do you have in mind when you refer to "defence

17     structures"?

18             MS. PELIC:  I'm citing by the Defence -- evidence of the witness

19     in his Defence statement.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Thank you.  Yes.

21             Please continue.

22             MS. PELIC:  [Microphone not activated] Thank you.  Thank you,

23     Your Honours.

24        Q.   Sir, this is an extraordinary report of the

25     22nd Light Infantry Brigade sent to the 1st Krajina Corps command

Page 45843

 1     intelligence and security division.  It's dated 21st of August, 1992, and

 2     type signed commander Lieutenant-Colonel Bosko Peulic.  Commander Peulic

 3     reports to the 1st KK that on the 21st of August, 1992, a combined

 4     refugee convoy was moving in the direction of Travnik over Vlasic

 5     mountain.  Convoy was escorted by the Prijedor and Sanski Most police.

 6     It stopped in the area of Koricanske Stijene and around 150 refugees were

 7     taken out and genocide against civilians was committed by killing them in

 8     various ways and throwing them into the river canyon."

 9             Sir, it's clear from this document that the defence structures

10     knew that the police members participated in the Koricanske Stijene

11     massacre, isn't it?  Just yes or no.  Thank you.

12        A.   Well, this is a telegram stating knowledge that something had

13     happened.

14             But, Your Honours, would you allow me to give an explanation,

15     because another question continues along the same lines.

16             The questions that were put to me under 12, 13, and 14, guided me

17     in the following way:  There was no plan in the defence structures that

18     supported that and I stand by that.  Now this, what was put to me now --

19             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think Ms. Pelic asked -- asked you anything

20     about the plan.  The question was whether is it clear from -- whether

21     it's clear from this document that defence structure, which is the term

22     you used in your statement, knew that the police members participate in

23     Koricanske Stijene massacre.

24             Do you agree or not?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's not very legible, but if that

Page 45844

 1     is what is contained in the telegram, then that is the knowledge that

 2     they had, that that was the situation on the ground.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue.

 4             MS. PELIC:  Thank you.

 5        Q.   Sir, in fact, even Defence Witness Slobodan Avlijas testified in

 6     this case, transcript pages 35187 to 35188, that the entire

 7     Republika Srpska knew that this massacre had been perpetrated by members

 8     of the SJB Prijedor.  Everyone knew about the Koricanske Stijene

 9     massacre; that's correct?

10        A.   The massacre that occurred at Koricanske Stijene, that's a fact.

11     That happened.  I don't know when people found out about it, to tell you

12     the truth.  I don't know when I found out.  I don't know how much later.

13     So that's a fact.

14             I'm not talking about any kind of participation of mine or

15     anything like that.  I'm talking about finding out when that had

16     happened.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

18     be asked to speak slowly again.

19             MS. PELIC:

20        Q.   Sir, contrary to your statement given to the Defence, even

21     Milomir Stakic testified in this case as a Defence witness at transcript

22     page 45269, and I quote:

23             "It is a fact that crimes were committed.  It is a fact that they

24     were expelled from their homes and thereby compelled to leave the area."

25             Mr. Stakic also agreed that "most of them left out of the fear,

Page 45845

 1     and so on and so forth."

 2             But the crimes that Mr. Stakic and Mr. Avlijas acknowledged, the

 3     crimes that were known to the 1st KK command, the crimes that befell the

 4     family of your colleague, those are all things that escaped your

 5     attention and you didn't know about them, according to your statement

 6     given to the Defence; correct?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Pelic, did the witness deny that there was any

 9     crime?

10             MS. PELIC:

11        Q.   Sir, if could you --

12             MS. PELIC:  Yes, Your Honour, at page 8 of the Defence statement.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Paragraph.

14             MS. PELIC:  After the question number 15 goes into incidents in

15     the indictment subparagraph.  And the witness claimed that he has no

16     knowledge of the murders that allegedly happened in Prijedor

17     municipality.  And murders --

18             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Where is it?

19             MS. PELIC:  Last three paragraphs, four paragraphs -- three --

20     three paragraphs of the Defence statement.

21             JUDGE KWON:  So in para 15?

22             MS. PELIC:  Under "incidents in the indictment."  Attachment A.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My objection is:  How is that

25     contrary to - page 49, line 24 -- how are these documents contrary to the

Page 45846

 1     statement?

 2             MS. PELIC:  If I may --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Did you ask the witness whether he knew the massacre

 4     at Koricanske Stijene?

 5             MS. PELIC:  Sir, if I may answer --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 7             MS. PELIC:  Your Honour, massacre of Koricanske Stijene is

 8     included in our indictment --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Whether -- my question is whether you put that

10     question to the witness.

11             MS. PELIC:  The Defence did under murders linked to the

12     facilities of imprisonment --

13             JUDGE KWON:  No, no, no.  Did you ever ask to the witness whether

14     he knew of this massacre at that time.

15             MS. PELIC:  I can do that now.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  I don't think you put it to the witness.

17             Yes.

18             MS. PELIC:

19        Q.   Sir --

20             MS. PELIC:  Thank you.

21        Q.   -- in 1992, were you aware of the Koricanske Stijene massacre?

22        A.   I cannot remember, really, when I found out about that, whether

23     it was 1992, 1993, or 1994.  I really don't know.  But absolutely.  I

24     mean, I was not in this system at that moment that I had some knowledge

25     beforehand.  I think it was later on, really.  At that moment, if that's

Page 45847

 1     the question that's being put to me, I really did not have any knowledge

 2     about that.  The fact is that that happened and I'm not denying that --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  But, Mr. -- Mr. Sipovac, you now know what happened.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Later on, I found out.  It

 5     wasn't now that I found out.  I found out later.  I cannot remember

 6     exactly when, but I did find out that that had happened.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  What did you mean when you say "I do not have any

 8     knowledge of murders"?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This question that was put to me:

10     Did you have any knowledge.  That meant at the commission of such a

11     thing, did I know about that.  I really did not know.  I was not in that

12     kind of system, and I have no reason to evade anything.  Had I known --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not understand the

14     end of the sentence.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The transcript is not good enough.

16             The witness said that his understanding was whether he had known

17     at the time, whether he had knowledge at the time, that this had happened

18     in Prijedor.  It did not pertain to Koricanske Stijene.  That is far

19     away.  150 or 200 --

20             JUDGE KWON:  That part is not a proper intervention.

21             Do you have further questions, Ms. Pelic?

22             MS. PELIC:  No, Your Honour.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have any re-examination, Mr. Karadzic?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Excellency.  And then you

25     decide when the break should be taken and when we should continue.

Page 45848

 1             JUDGE KWON:  I think it's -- it's time now to have a break,

 2     albeit short -- shortly.

 3             We'll have a break for 15 minutes.  And then we'll have lunch

 4     break later on, as usual.

 5                            --- Break taken at 11.40 a.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 11.58 a.m.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Sipovac, you were asked about your position.

11     Can you tell us how many desks there were at the VTO?

12        A.   Well, there was a total of eight, nine, or ten employees.  I'd

13     have to do the counting yet again, name by name in order to remember.

14     Between eight and ten.

15        Q.   And you were in charge of which department or desk?

16        A.   Mobilisation.

17        Q.   What about others?  Were they in charge of something else?

18        A.   Recruitment.  The VTO worked on recruitment and mobilisation

19     only.

20        Q.   We really have to speak slowly and pause.

21             So if Mr. Budimir said that you were in charge of mobilisation,

22     whatever the interpretation may be, did he say that you were for

23     mobilisation?

24        A.   [No interpretation]

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not hear the

Page 45849

 1     answer, the beginning.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat your answer, and speak more slowly,

 3     please.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise.

 5             I was the desk officer for mobilisation.  And Captain Micic was

 6     assistant chief for mobilisation.  So, as for that part, where I worked,

 7     the mobilisation department, there were three or four other desk officers

 8     who worked together with me.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Thank you.  In my question, lines 2, 3, 4, it is not recorded if

11     Mr. Budimir said that you were for mobilisation, whatever he'd call you,

12     chief, head, et cetera.  Does that mean that that is correct, that within

13     that framework, you were just for mobilisation?

14        A.   Yes.  But I was not the chief.  The question that was put to me,

15     as I understood it, was that I was chief of the VTO.  I was not chief of

16     the VTO.  I was a desk officer in the military territorial organ.

17        Q.   What about Becir Medunjanin?  What was he before the war?

18        A.   Before the war, since I knew him, I think he was the principal of

19     the school in Kozarac.  He was a professor -- or, rather, a teacher of

20     mathematics and physics.  Then, after the multi-party elections, he

21     became secretary of the Secretariat for National Defence in Prijedor.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell us the following:  Mobilisation

23     was discussed here as an ongoing process and also references were made to

24     a declaration of general mobilisation.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber

25     whether that is one and the same thing; and if there's a difference, tell

Page 45850

 1     us what the difference is.

 2        A.   Well, this is the difference:  Mobilisation in terms of its

 3     extent can be full mobilisation or partially mobilisation.  In terms of

 4     communication it can be general or public -- or, rather, it can be

 5     public.  I mean, it can be secret too, if call-up papers are delivered in

 6     person.  So the distinction in terms of the question that was put to me,

 7     there was partially mobilisation of particular war-time units.  There was

 8     a request to mobilise them and that went on from the moment when it was

 9     declared.  It went on in continuity until the war-time units were fully

10     manned.

11             On the 21st of May, there was general -- or, rather, public

12     mobilisation because then all military-age military conscripts were

13     duty-bound to report to military organs, so that they could be recorded

14     as military conscripts, they could be given war-time assignments if they

15     did not have one, and then be sent on wherever necessary, war-time units,

16     or other duties that are in accordance with the plan.

17        Q.   Thank you.  What was included in the duties of Mr. Medunjanin?

18     However, before that, I'd like to ask you something else.  Did you know

19     who Muhamed Cehajic was and what his duty was?  And then I also have to

20     ask you what his ethnic background would be on the basis of his name.

21        A.   Muhamed Cehajic was a professor, high school teacher.  After the

22     multi-party elections, he was head of the Prijedor municipality.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Enes Kursumovic, did you know?

24        A.   No.  That name does not ring a bell at all.  I cannot remember.

25     I don't know.

Page 45851

 1        Q.   All right.  Fikret Kadiric and Sakib Besic?

 2        A.   Fikret Kadiric, I think he worked in the police, at the Prijedor

 3     police station that is.  And Sakib was at the TO Staff.  He was

 4     commander, head.  Just before that, he had retired.  I cannot remember

 5     exactly.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  I find this embarrassing but I have to ask you this.

 7     Does -- do these names sound like Muslim names?

 8        A.   Well, in respect of the previous questions, I said that it is

 9     very awkward to speak about ethnic background on the basis of names only.

10     Through the records, the military records, one can see that military

11     conscripts, once they are recorded for the first time, they should say

12     what their ethnic affiliations is.  I have already said that particular

13     people have a particular tradition culture, customs, habits.  So, for

14     example, in the Orthodox world, if Krsta is a name, then in the Islamic

15     world, Muhamed is a name.  So then on the basis of that, you can judge

16     the ethnic background.

17        Q.   So what would be the duty, the work of the secretary of

18     National Defence, the post held by Mr. Becir Medunjanin, the person that

19     you were asked about?

20        A.   Well, the duty of the secretary is, first of all, to be in charge

21     of the organ and to carry out measures and activities that fall within

22     the general framework of the organ -- or, rather, the Secretariat of

23     National Defence at the time.  Among other things, they were duty-bound

24     in addition to the recruitment obligation and the planning obligation,

25     there was the obligation to mobilise war-time units for civilian defence,

Page 45852

 1     Territorial Defence, units for reporting and surveillance, work

 2     obligation, and so on and so forth, as far as I can remember right now.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Was it his duty to carry out the constitutional and

 4     legal obligation to contribute to the defence of the country?

 5        A.   As a supervisor in that position it was his duty to carry out

 6     these obligations that had to be in according with the law and in

 7     accordance with the constitution, so his duty was to monitor the

 8     implementation of plans and programmes in that field.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And what is this legitimate military formation that

10     he was supposed to service at the level of the municipality?

11        A.   All war-time units were legitimate, if we're talking about 1991,

12     and I am talking about 1991, up until May/June 1992.  So these are

13     war-time units, units of the Territorial Defence, units for reporting and

14     surveillance, then units of the civilian protection, then work obligation

15     units.  So that would be manning.  Now, as far as planning and manning of

16     war-time units is concerned, that too.

17        Q.   Which army?

18        A.   The JNA at the time, still.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness now be shown

21     1D16050.  While we're waiting for this document -- 16050, if it was not

22     written down correctly.  16050.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   To the best of your knowledge, were people treated on the basis

25     of their religious affiliation or what they did?

Page 45853

 1        A.   Are you referring to the JNA or is this a general question?

 2        Q.   The part of the authorities where you had insight.

 3        A.   That part, absolutely.  I can give examples, too, of officers and

 4     other persons who, according to war-time assignment, were in the

 5     43rd Motorised Brigade and in other units.  And in the 43rd, I claim with

 6     certainty that that was the approach.  Those who had a war-time

 7     assignment in 1990 or 1991, it doesn't matter, and who responded to

 8     call-up when mobilisation was carried out, well, in the command of the

 9     brigade itself, I'm sorry, as I've already said that I'm approaching the

10     problem this way, but I had the records before me so I can say that with

11     certainty.  There were Croats, there were Muslims, and there were persons

12     of other ethnic backgrounds.  And I don't know if I have to mention them

13     by name.  I don't really want to hurt these people in any way, but I have

14     their records where they, themselves, stated what their ethnic background

15     was.

16             The chief of the air defence system was a Croat.  The operations

17     officer who drew work maps, plans, and so on, according to the records

18     there was a Muslim.  The other operations officer for moral affairs was a

19     Croat.  In the brigade itself, in the command, there were assistant

20     commanders who had mixed marriages.  So I'm saying this with certainty,

21     within the unit itself in 1991, according to the records, the official

22     records, there were Croats and Muslims there during 1992.  And that can

23     be checked in the records absolutely.  There was an increasing number of

24     these units coming into the 43rd Prijedor Brigade.  I claim that with

25     full certainty and that can be checked.

Page 45854

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please focus on this attachment to the

 2     criminal report where it says that these are the names of the organisers

 3     of the armed rebellion in Prijedor and the killing of JNA soldiers in

 4     Hambarine.  Number 3, the name we see is Becir Medunjanin.  Is that the

 5     same Becir Medunjanin, or were there several of them?  It says here

 6     secretary of the National Defence Secretariat of the

 7     Prijedor Municipal Assembly.

 8        A.   His name is written here.  Now whether he was involved in that, I

 9     mean, really, I'm taken aback by this, frankly speaking.  Him being

10     involved in that?  Well, if it is stated here, then I accept it as a

11     fact.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Do we know from this document what this document is

15     about?  This is an annex to what?

16             Mr. Karadzic.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Criminal report.  After the killing

18     of the soldiers in Hambarine and after it was dealt with, the criminal

19     report was compiled.  And this is an annex to the criminal report,

20     listing the names of the persons who are responsible for that crime.

21             JUDGE KWON:  So you're tendering this page, page 1 of this

22     document?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe it would be useful,

24     Excellency, for you to have the document in its entirety.  Because this

25     events is very important and it is often mentioned during the trial.

Page 45855

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Do you --

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And also it can show whether the

 3     basis for bringing these people in was religious affiliation or crimes.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Are -- the names do not arise from the cross.

 5             Do you have any objection to the admission of page 1 of this

 6     document, Ms. Pelic.

 7             MS. PELIC:  Your Honour, the witness didn't testify anything to

 8     the document except confirming the fact that what's already written and

 9     in the record read by Mr. Karadzic.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE KWON:  We'll receive the page 1 of this document.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D4231, Your Honours.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Mr. Sipovac, records were shown to you from the meetings of the

16     Council for National Defence of the municipality.  Can you tell us

17     briefly what kind of body this was; did we establish at the beginning of

18     the war; and, generally speaking, who regulates this matter?

19        A.   The National Defence Council is an organ of the assembly, and

20     members of the council serve on the council ex officio, president of the

21     assembly, president of the Executive Board, secretaries of secretariats,

22     et cetera.  The secretary of that council was simultaneously the

23     secretary of the National Defence organ, and his duty was to assess the

24     political and security situation in the area of the municipality; and, in

25     keeping with the situation and with the documents that had been endorsed,

Page 45856

 1     to issue instructions and guide-lines to various municipal agencies that

 2     implement the adopted policies.

 3        Q.   You just said there was a National Defence Council, including

 4     Mr. Medunjanin, and there was also the VTO.  To which authorities does

 5     the Secretariat for National Defence belong; and to which authority does

 6     the VTO belong?

 7        A.   If you mean the distribution of departments, it belonged to the

 8     SDA.  The secretariat belonged to the SDA.

 9        Q.   No, in the line to the top.

10        A.   The secretariat was under the civilian authorities; and the VTO

11     was under the Federal Secretariat for National Defence, that is to say,

12     the armed forces.  And the secretariat was too but along a different

13     line.

14        Q.   And the last topic.  You were shown a report of

15     Lieutenant-Colonel Peulic about what happened at Koricanske Stijene.

16     Were you, in view of your job or otherwise, one of those who received

17     such reports?

18        A.   No, my job did not include that.

19        Q.   What did Peulic do with the information he obtained?  Did he try

20     to cover up or to -- or did he pass it on to his superior command?

21        A.   [No interpretation]

22             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness needs to repeat his answer because

23     there was no pause between question and answer.

24             JUDGE KWON:  No, no, you spoke too fast and without pausing at

25     all.

Page 45857

 1             Mr. Sipovac, could you kindly repeat your answer very slowly.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the Prosecutor asked me this

 3     question and when she showed me the telegram signed by Mr. Peulic, I said

 4     that I could not see exactly what it was about but I understood it was a

 5     report about something that happened on the ground, that is to say, the

 6     crime at Koricanske Stijene.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   My question was what -- what was he supposed to do?  Was he

 9     covering up or was he reporting about it?

10        A.   He was reporting, which is perfectly natural in the military

11     hierarchy.  It was normal and it was his duty to report any incidents, if

12     they were in his zone of responsibility.

13        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Sipovac.  I have no further questions.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  That concludes your evidence,

15     Mr. Sipovac.  I thank you for your coming to The Hague to give it.  Now

16     you're free to go.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18                           [The witness withdrew]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we take the lunch break now, given the timing?

20     Yes, we'll resume at five past 1.00.

21                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.21 p.m.

22                           [The witness entered court]

23                           --- On resuming at 1.06 p.m.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness make the solemn declaration,

25     please.

Page 45858

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 2     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 3                           WITNESS:  MILADIN NEDIC

 4                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Nedic.  Make yourself comfortable,

 6     please.

 7             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Nedic.

11        A.   Good afternoon, Mr. President.  You are our president for all

12     times, forever.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Could we both speak slowly, please, and leave a short

14     pause between questions and answers to avoid problems for interpreters.

15     Do you agree?

16        A.   I do.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Have you given a statement to my Defence team?

18        A.   Yes, I gave a statement and signed it.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

20     in e-court 1D9664.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   On the left side, do you see the Serbian version of your

23     statement?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Have you read and signed this statement?

Page 45859

 1        A.   Yes, I have read it and signed it.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please show the last page

 3     so that Mr. Nedic can identify his signature.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Is this your signature?

 6        A.   Yes, it is.

 7        Q.   Does this statement faithfully reflect what you told the Defence

 8     team or are there any corrections to make?

 9        A.   I don't think there are -- are anything -- there are any

10     corrections to make.

11        Q.   If I were to put to you the same questions now, would your

12     answers, in essence, be the same as in the statement?

13        A.   I don't think I would change anything.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tender this statement under

16     Rule 92 ter.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Any objection, Ms. Gustafson?

18             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  No objection.

19             JUDGE KWON:  We'll admit it.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D4232, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             I will now read in English a short summary of Mr. Miladin Nedic's

24     statement.

25             [In English] Miladin Nedic, a mining engineer, was one of the

Page 45860

 1     founders of the SDS in B and H.  After the multi-party elections of 1990,

 2     he was elected to become the SDS representative in the BH Assembly and a

 3     member of the Main Board of the Serbian Democratic Party.

 4             Later on, Mr. Nedic was elected to be a representative of the

 5     1st Assembly of the Republika Srpska, that means continued to be a member

 6     of parliament.  He was involved in the work of the party in Ozren mount

 7     from the moment it was established on the 28th of July, 1990.

 8             At the Republika Srpska Assembly session of 24th to

 9     26th July, 1992, Mr. Nedic gave a speech that was used by the Prosecution

10     in the case against Dr. Radovan Karadzic as an evidence that the Serbs

11     planned to commit genocide against the Muslims.  The content of this

12     message has been twisted.  Mr. Nedic was calling for a peaceful solution

13     of the crisis in BH without the interference of others from outside the

14     former Yugoslavia who could push the peoples in BH against each other.

15     He never advocated the execution of Muslims.

16             The next time Mr. Nedic addressed the Assembly, he stated clearly

17     that he did not want a war which would enslave some and transform others

18     in oppressors.  He called for the treatment of soldiers in accordance

19     with the military codes and the respect of a knightly warfare which is

20     very distant from genocide.  People in Ozren remained united which helped

21     them to survive because there was no bloodshed and conflicts between

22     them.  Finally, he urged for the postponement of any discussion about

23     borders which would create chaos among soldiers.

24             Mr. Nedic has known Dr. Karadzic throughout the 1990-1995 period

25     and participated in many meetings with him.  Dr. Karadzic never gave any

Page 45861

 1     indication whatsoever of being in favour of destroying the

 2     Bosnian Muslims in whole or in part.

 3             And this is the summary.  At that moment, I do not have questions

 4     for Mr. Nedic.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nedic, as you have noted, your evidence in-chief

 6     in this case has been admitted in writing, that is, through your written

 7     statement in lieu of your oral testimony.

 8             Now you'll be cross-examined by the representative of the -- of

 9     the Office of the Prosecutor.

10             Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

11             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.  If I could have

12     Exhibit D92, please.

13                           Cross-examination by Ms. Gustafson:

14        Q.   And good afternoon, Mr. Nedic.

15        A.   [No interpretation]

16             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't hear anything.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nedic, could you come closer to the microphone

18     so that interpreters could hear you better.

19             THE ACCUSED:  So witness responded "dobar dan," but it was not

20     recorded.

21             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could go to page 40 of the English and

22     page 39 of the B/C/S.

23        Q.   Mr. Nedic, we'll start by looking at the speech you made which is

24     the main subject of your witness statement, your speech at the

25     17th Session.

Page 45862

 1             Now, towards the beginning of the speech you say:

 2             "This, which is happening in Bosnia-Herzegovina today, was

 3     planned 7- to 800 years ago in one of the world's power centres and this,

 4     which is happening today, is by no means new."

 5             And on the next page in the English, a bit later on you say:

 6             "I am against solving the situation in Bosnia in haste.  We must

 7     admit that the Muslims have been planted to us as a people whose

 8     executioners we are to be."

 9             In your witness statement, you said that you were suggesting here

10     that factors outside Yugoslavia wanted to use the Serbs to fight against

11     the Muslims.  This was based on the idea that outside factors, such as

12     powerful European states, did not want an Islamic state to be created in

13     Europe; is that right?

14        A.   What was going on in Bosnia was not a new thing.  It was a war

15     along religious and ethnic lines.  Our religions were both 7- or

16     800 years old, and we are not responsible for the various characteristics

17     of these two peoples.

18             I was in favour of reaching an agreement with the other side, a

19     mutual agreement, without the diktat of any outsiders.  It was the

20     centres of power that put us in that position.  I don't know where these

21     centres are, but it's certainly not a new thing to divide and

22     rule peoples.  They divided us in the First World War, the

23     Second World War, and this latest war, and I didn't want any outside

24     interference in Bosnia between us.  I wanted us to reach agreement

25     between us, but it was not possible.  We had reached an agreement with

Page 45863

 1     Alija Izetbegovic and we were very happy that we had reached this

 2     agreement to continue living side by side, but then it floundered, and

 3     then the worse that could happen happened.

 4        Q.   Mr. Nedic, I'd like to ask you to listen very carefully to my

 5     question and to answer the question that I ask.  Because, in your answer,

 6     you didn't actually answer that question.

 7             My question was:  You've said in your statement that you were

 8     suggesting in this speech that factors outside Yugoslavia wanted to use

 9     the Serbs to fight against the Muslims.  And my question is:  This was

10     based on the idea that outside factors did not want an Islamic state to

11     be created in Europe.  That was what was motivating those outside factors

12     to use the Serbs to fight against the Muslims.

13             Do you agree or disagree with that?

14        A.   Well, it's probable that somebody did not want to see an Islamic

15     state arise in the Balkans.  And in that war nobody supported the Islamic

16     state.  Perhaps somebody from the east did, but from the west, certainly

17     not.

18             But we were not fighting against Muslims or Croats.  We were just

19     defending ourselves.  We had not planned that war.  We had believed in

20     the army and co-operated with the army, until the very last day.  And

21     these power centres outside, they made all the decisions.  And the

22     bombing was done by -- by foreign planes, not by Islamic planes or I

23     don't know whose.

24        Q.   Again, Mr. Nedic, I'm going to ask you to please focus on my

25     question --

Page 45864

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Why don't you put -- ask the witness to read out

 2     paragraph 5 of his statement and ask what he meant.  Probably he might

 3     have been confused with this minute and with his statement.

 4             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 5        Q.   Mr. Nedic, in your statement, you said, "I was suggesting" --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 7             Do you have your witness statement, Mr. Nedic?

 8             Why don't you upload his statement, Exhibit D4232, paragraph 5.

 9             THE ACCUSED:  Excellency, if it could be most suitable, we can

10     give hard copy to witness.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we can do that, but -- yes.

12             Can you read aloud paragraph 5 of your statement, Mr. Nedic?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The gist of my message was let's

14     try to find a solution to avoid war, by not allowing others from outside

15     the former Yugoslavia to interfere and push us against each other.  I was

16     suggesting that these outside factors wanted to use the Serbs to fight

17     against the Muslims.  I only had the best intentions, and I don't

18     understand how anyone could make such a misinterpretation of my speech.

19     I never advocated the execution of Muslims."

20             I don't understand what's unclear here.  I wanted us --

21             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Just -- here comes the question from

22     the Prosecutor.

23             Yes, please continue, Ms. Gustafson.

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:

25        Q.   Mr. Nedic, you've said that it was your view that outside factors

Page 45865

 1     want to use Serbs to fight against the Muslims.

 2             Why did those outside factors want the Serbs to fight the

 3     Muslims?

 4        A.   Nobody wanted to see an Islamic state in the Balkans.  Who?  Who

 5     could have wanted that?  Maybe Muslims themselves did.  But even not all

 6     of them, because most Muslims had opted to live in that territory

 7     together with their neighbours.

 8             I don't have a problem with my own people.  I have a problem with

 9     politicians.

10        Q.   Okay.  That's clear now.

11             And you -- in this speech at the 17th Session, you said:

12             "We are a people who have been determined to be executioners and

13     to do someone a favour."

14             Now, this reflects the idea that the Serbs are in a position to

15     eliminate the Muslims through the conflict as they would thereby be doing

16     a favour to these outside factors who don't want to see an Islamic state

17     in the Balkans; correct?

18        A.   Whichever nation in Bosnia had disappeared, a third party would

19     benefit; not us, but somebody outside.  Because whenever people quarrel,

20     always somebody from outside interferes and benefits from that quarrel.

21     It's a law of life.

22             I was in favour of sitting down together with Croats and Muslims

23     and deciding how we are going to go on living together.  I even compared

24     us to Switzerland because we have the same kind of country with the same

25     beautiful mountains, but we needed to find an arrangement to continue

Page 45866

 1     living side by side and that could be done only peacefully and not by

 2     war.  And Mr. Karadzic never told us to go and take a territory with a

 3     majority Muslim population.  The example is Gracanica.  When a general

 4     asked for 1.000 soldiers to take Gracanica, Mr. Karadzic asked him, Why

 5     would you do that?  The Muslims also have to live somewhere.  That is

 6     their territory.  And I understood him.  And I did not provide troops to

 7     takes Gracanica.  We prevented that officer who wanted to do that.

 8        Q.   In your answer, Mr. Nedic, you said:

 9             "Whichever nation in Bosnia had disappeared, a third party would

10     benefit."

11             What you were saying in your speech at the 17th Session was that

12     if the Muslim people disappeared, these outside factors who did not want

13     an Islamic state to be created in the Balkans would benefit; right?

14        A.   Correct.

15        Q.   Okay.  In your statement, you said you were not advocating the

16     execution of Muslims here and that the essence of your message was to try

17     to find a solution to avoid a war.

18             Now, you acknowledge that at this point, late July 1992, there

19     was, in fact, a war going on, as you state in this very speech.  There

20     was war in Bosnia at that time; correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Now, the primary goal of the Bosnian Serb leadership in this war

23     was to prevent the Serbs from becoming a minority in an independent

24     Bosnia by attaining a separate Serb state in Bosnia, a state in which

25     Muslims and Croats would be a small minority at most; right?

Page 45867

 1        A.   Why a very small minority?

 2        Q.   It was my question to you, Mr. Nedic.  That was the goal of the

 3     Bosnian Serb leadership:  A separate Serb state in Bosnia where the

 4     Muslims and Croats would be a small minority of the population at most.

 5             Do you agree or disagree?

 6        A.   Well, in the early days, we were together in a common assembly of

 7     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and we recognised Bosnia.  But we wanted it to be

 8     part of Yugoslavia, and they proclaimed cessation from Yugoslavia.  We

 9     wanted to go on living together with all the other nations.

10             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go back to D92, page 16 of the

11     English and page 14 of the B/C/S.

12        Q.   Now, this is Dr. Karadzic speaking, Mr. Nedic, and towards the

13     bottom of the page he speaks about the importance of the Sarajevo

14     battle-field.  He says a few lines down, beginning of that paragraph:

15             "A non-Serb state may be created on Muslim or Croat territories

16     in western Herzegovina, in Cazinska Krajina, or in Central Bosnia.  But

17     on ethnic Serb territories, others cannot create any state, neither can

18     the Serbs allow any state to be created against them, because they know

19     what they experienced the last time they were in somebody else's state,

20     and they finally know their status in the states in which they are a

21     national minority."

22             Now what Dr. Karadzic is saying here is that a state dominated by

23     non-Serbs cannot encompass ethnic Serb territories, and, similarly, Serbs

24     cannot allow any state in which they constitute a national minority;

25     right?

Page 45868

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   And when he says that Serbs "know what they experienced the last

 3     time they were in somebody else's state and they finally know their

 4     status in the states in which they are a national minority," he is

 5     referring to historical events where the Serbs suffered at the hands of

 6     Muslims and Croats; correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And I take it you agree with these sentiments that as a national

 9     minority in a Muslim or a Muslim and Croat-dominated states, the Serbs

10     faced existential dangers.  Do you agree?

11        A.   Well, whenever Serbs were a minority, and whenever they were in a

12     foreign state, they were subjected to some sort of terror or a threat of

13     extermination.  We have always faced extermination if we were in a state

14     governed by a foreigner.  And this has repeated, not only lately, this

15     has been the case for hundreds of years.

16        Q.   And you say:

17             "We have always faced extermination if we were in a state

18     governed by a foreigner."

19             You -- you -- your view is also that you, the Serbs, faced

20     extermination in a state governed by Muslims; right?

21        A.   Correct.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to page 82 of the English and page

23     83 of the B/C/S.

24        Q.   And there's an exchange here between the chairman, Mr. Krajisnik

25     and Mr. Ostojic, and Mr. Krajisnik asks:

Page 45869

 1             "I need an answer.  Do we want Jajce, Bugojno, Tuzla, Banovici,

 2     Zepce and Zavidovici to be in Republika Srpska?"

 3             And Mr. Ostojic answers:

 4             "If a clear definition of the borders in that area is expected of

 5     me, I think that we have to commit to a strategy of a national state and

 6     not the strategy of grasping territories, because we would be repeating a

 7     historical mistake like in 1918.  On such territory, do you want me to

 8     give you the numbers?  In such country there would be 55 per cent Serbs;

 9     35 per cent Muslims; and 15 per cent Croats.  Through birth rate within

10     10 years you will loose even that percentage."

11             Now, here, Mr. Ostojic -- this is another reference by

12     Mr. Ostojic, this time to the need to ensure that the Bosnian Serb state

13     does not contain too many non-Serbs; right?  That would be a historical

14     mistake?

15        A.   It would have been a historical mistake for us to take their

16     territories and their people into our state.  However, if an agreement

17     could have been reached it would have been justified for us to live next

18     to each other and nobody threatening anybody else.  And if those who

19     wanted to cross over to live in either the Serbian state unit or in the

20     Muslim state unit, they would not be forbidden.  That's -- that was our

21     line of thinking.  That's why we created Republika Srpska.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could go to page 85 of the English and

23     page 86 in the B/C/S.

24        Q.   Where Dr. Karadzic speaks again, and about three lines down he

25     says:

Page 45870

 1             "The thirst for territories and a greater country of the late

 2     Aleksandar Karadjordjevic had cost us three million, plus their offspring

 3     which amounts to 10 million people."

 4             And about five lines down from there, he says:

 5             "Now the question is, and you have to decide as an assembly, what

 6     shall we do if they get killed on account of some river or hill and in

 7     such a way again get to have an enemy in our own country?"

 8             Now this is another reference by Dr. Karadzic from this session

 9     to the need to ensure that the Bosnian Serb state does not contain too

10     many non-Serbs; correct?

11        A.   Yes.  But this would not have been done by force.  An agreement

12     would have to be reached to that effect.

13        Q.   Well, Mr. Nedic, in fact, achieving the Serb state without too

14     many non-Serbs in it, the one sought by the Bosnian Serb leadership,

15     involved reducing the numbers of Muslims and Croats in Serb-claimed

16     territories by committing crimes against them, didn't it?

17        A.   That's not true.

18             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to page 7 -- if we could go to

19     page 72 of the English, page 73 of the B/C/S.

20        Q.   And this is Mr. Rajko Dukic speaking.  Now, Mr. Rajko Dukic was

21     the president of the SDS Executive Board and a member of the Main Board

22     together with you; isn't that right, Mr. Nedic?

23        A.   Yes, yes.

24        Q.   And roughly halfway down in the English and ten lines down in the

25     B/C/S, he begins speaking about Semberija.  And he says:

Page 45871

 1             "As far as Semberija is concerned, we have not done anything in

 2     Semberija either, gentlemen.  We do not have Semberija, let us not

 3     deceive ourselves.  There are more refugee there now than before.  In

 4     Semberija, there are different authorities and policies and more Muslims

 5     than there have ever been [sic] because in Semberija and Bijeljina

 6     municipality, the majority of the population is Muslims -- is Muslim,"

 7     sorry, "there are 12.000 Muslims without Janje which is 10 kilometres

 8     away."

 9             And then a few lines down, he talks about what he saw in the

10     Official Gazette.  He says:

11             "There it says that judges have been appointed to the Bijeljina

12     court:  Smajil Salbegovic, Muhamed Gluhonjic, Alida Madjar,

13     Alija Zvizdic, and I do not know, I also found a fifth one,

14     Alma Halibegovic.  So I am asking you, gentlemen, why we expelled all

15     judges from Vlasenica, Bratunac, and Zvornik?  Will we be accused then, I

16     hope we will not, but will these others be better there working like

17     this?  I would be ashamed and I would regret all the victims if I lived

18     in a state in which Muslims and Muslim ideology would judge and where

19     their justice was done."

20             And then a few lines down he refers to in -- in Bijeljina the

21     fact that people are sitting around in cafes drinking Turkish coffee and

22     singing Turkish songs.  And he says:

23             "You see, our 3.500 women and children are counting their last

24     days there.  We cannot do it like that.  We have to decide about that."

25             Now, Mr. Dukic is saying here that even though Bijeljina is

Page 45872

 1     militarily in the hands of the Serbs at this point, we still do not have

 2     Semberija because there are too many Muslims living there; right?

 3        A.   During the war, I passed through Bijeljina and I saw a lot of

 4     Muslims who lived there normally, although it was war time.  But if this

 5     was after the war, then fine.  Muslims could live normally in Bijeljina.

 6     Nobody touched them.  There were some individuals who were involved in

 7     incidents, but Dr. Karadzic never asked for anybody to be ill-treated,

 8     never asked anybody to move out of Bijeljina.

 9        Q.   Mr. Nedic, you didn't answer my question.  What Mr. Dukic is

10     saying here is that the Serbs still don't really have Semberija because

11     there are too many Muslims living there; right?

12        A.   I don't know what he referred to, what he meant.  If the

13     authorities were Serbs and there were too many Muslims, it really didn't

14     mean anything, didn't mean much.

15        Q.   When Mr. Dukic says, "You see, our 3.500 women and children are

16     counting their last days there," what he is saying here is that the 3.500

17     Serb women and children living in Bijeljina, their lives are in danger

18     because of the number of Muslims still in Bijeljina; right?

19        A.   When was that?

20        Q.   At this session, Mr. Nedic, Mr. Dukic says in the speech we just

21     looked at:

22             "You see, our 3.500 women and children are counting their last

23     days there."

24             He is talking about the dangers that Serb women and children in

25     Bijeljina face because of the number of Muslims still living there;

Page 45873

 1     right?

 2        A.   I don't know what he had in mind.  You have to ask him that.

 3        Q.   And if we could go to the next page of the B/C/S.  And this is

 4     another ten lines down or so in the English from where we left off.

 5             He talks about Birac.  He says:

 6             "If we move further, there is Birac which is 100 to

 7     108 kilometres away and has 120.000 Muslims.  That is how many there

 8     were, but I hope that has at least been halved and 90.000 Serbs."

 9             Now, Birac is an area in Eastern Bosnia that includes Sekovici,

10     Vlasenica, Srebrenica, Milici, Bratunac, and Zvornik; correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Now when Mr. Dukic says that there are now 120.000 Muslims there

13     but he hopes that has at least been halved, he is talking about the need

14     to reduce the number of Muslims living in this area, an area claimed by

15     Serbs; correct?

16             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Before you answer.

17             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

18             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, I object to the relevance of these

19     line of questions as to other people's statements at the Assembly.  If

20     you look at the witness statement for Mr. Nedic, he is talking about what

21     he intended by the speech that the Prosecution cited as evidence of

22     genocide.  What other people said, what other people intended, I don't

23     think are relevant to his evidence.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I told you that you should

25     ask Dukic about that.

Page 45874

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Just a second.

 2             French translation has only now been completed.

 3             Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

 4             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             The -- this, of course, is the same assembly session in which

 6     Mr. Nedic spoke and, of course, the context in which he made this speech

 7     is highly relevant.  I would add that Mr. Nedic is not on trial here.

 8     It's Dr. Karadzic who's alleged to have acted with other members of the

 9     Bosnian Serb leadership.  What the other -- what other members of that

10     leadership were saying at this session I think is highly relevant and

11     goes directly to the witness's claims.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, the Chamber agrees with you.  Please continue.

14             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you.

15        Q.   Mr. Nedic, you said that "you should ask Dukic about that."

16             So you can't comment on his reference here to reducing the number

17     of Muslims in Birac.  Is that a correct understanding?

18        A.   I really don't know what he meant.

19        Q.   Okay.  In your witness statement, you said you advocated finding

20     a solution to avoid a war with the Muslims, and earlier today you said:

21             "I was in favour of reaching agreement with the other side."

22             And then a little bit later you said:

23             "I was in favour of sitting down together with Croats and Muslims

24     and determining how we are going to go on living together."

25             Now, in fact, at the time during the war, you made it clear that

Page 45875

 1     you didn't think the Serbs should be negotiating with the Muslims at all;

 2     correct?

 3        A.   I don't understand your question.

 4             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to D115, please.

 5        Q.   Your view during the war, Mr. Nedic, was that the Serbs should

 6     not even negotiate with the Muslims; right?

 7        A.   I don't know that I ever said that or that I ever thought that.

 8             Throughout the war, all the time except [indiscernible] we would

 9     sit down and talk and negotiate and not wage war.

10             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to page 25 of the English and of

11     the B/C/S.

12        Q.   Mr. Nedic, this is a transcript of the 25th Assembly Session held

13     on the 19th and 20th of January, 1993, and the discussion at this session

14     focussed on the Vance-Owen negotiations going on in Geneva.

15             And at the bottom of the page, you speak, and you say in the

16     second sentence:

17             "And I have to begin this way.  Mr. Karadzic, your signature in

18     Geneva went up in smoke even before signed, and even had you affixed it,

19     it would have gone up in smoke.  For, at the Bijeljina Assembly, we

20     adopted the position that the Muslims represented a religious Islamic

21     group of Turkish allegiance and South Slav provenance.  In other words,

22     we, as a people, can talk to a people, and, in future, we can talk with

23     the Muslims only through their religious leader, the

24     Reis-el-Ulema Jakub Selimovski.  They cannot blame this on us.  They,

25     themselves, proved that they are not a nation.  Everything that we

Page 45876

 1     offered them as a people they refused, and had they been a people, they

 2     would have accepted at least one option for us to live like human beings

 3     and like peoples.  They are to blame, not us.  Let them fair as God sees

 4     fit."

 5             And on the next page, you say you are in favour of negotiating

 6     with the Croats and your last words are:

 7             "Therefore, as regards this whole discussion about the Geneva

 8     negotiations, let me not belabour the point.  Negotiations can only be

 9     conducted with a people, and I am not in favour of negotiations with

10     religious sects."

11             Now, Mr. Nedic, it's quite clear that at this session you were

12     advocating that the Serbs should not even negotiate with the Muslims who

13     you viewed as a religious sect unworthy of a seat at the negotiating

14     table; correct?

15        A.   I believe that we should not negotiate with them as a people but

16     as a religious group, they were Muslims.  I did not want to exterminate

17     anybody and I still believe that Muslims in Bosnia are Serbs' brothers in

18     blood.  And in terms of their religion, they are the Serbs' worst

19     enemies.

20        Q.   Mr. Nedic, you just said:

21             "I believe that we should not negotiate with them as a people but

22     as a religious group, they were Muslims."

23             But you said in this -- in this speech negotiations can only be

24     conducted with a people and I am not in favour of negotiations with

25     religious sects.

Page 45877

 1             You were saying quite the opposite at the time, weren't you?

 2        A.   With religious sects as a people.  I negotiate with a people, and

 3     with religious sects I negotiated as with religious sects.  But they did

 4     not want negotiations.  They wanted their own sovereign Bosnia where I

 5     would have to tolerate the Sharia law.  I lived or I have lived for 500

 6     years under the Sharia law, and I know how it is.

 7             THE ACCUSED:  Transcript.  [Interpretation] I'm not sure that

 8     Mr. Nedic would have anything against Sharia, but I'm sure that he would

 9     have something against Soraya, so it's not Soraya but the Sharia law.

10     Soraya was the Iranian queen.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Sharia law.

12             MS. GUSTAFSON:

13        Q.   Now, you said, Mr. Nedic, "I lived or I have lived for 500 years

14     under the Sharia law."  Now, at the time, you also made clear that if

15     your -- the area you were from, Ozren, went to the Muslim side, you'd

16     kill yourself.

17             Do you remember saying that?

18        A.   Perhaps I did, but I don't remember.

19             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Well, if we could go to P1379, please.  And the

20     passage I'm looking for is page 103 of the English and page 111 of the

21     B/C/S.

22        Q.   And, again, Mr. Nedic, the discussion in this session focussed on

23     the latest peace proposal, peace proposal which involved giving up some

24     territories around Ozren?

25             And your speech begins with you stating that you've started your

Page 45878

 1     journey to this session from Ozren.  And you said:

 2             "And I have to say that I was really happy to go because my

 3     fellow Ozren inhabitants asked me what I would do if it turned out that

 4     Ozren should be given to the Muslims after all.  Then I would hang

 5     myself, I said - there's nothing else for me to do."

 6             Does that remind you now of the fact that you said you'd kill

 7     yourself if Ozren went to the Muslims?

 8        A.   I don't remember that.  However, even if I said that, it would

 9     have been only normal for me to have said it.  Ozren fell largely under

10     Muslims but I didn't kill myself because Muslims did not take Ozren on

11     their own.  They were largely assisted by the NATO shelling.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be asked

13     to look at the first paragraph.  At least the first five or six lines

14     that are now on the screen.

15             Can he read that?  Can he read that selection?

16             MS. GUSTAFSON:  My time -- my time is very limited.  I read it

17     out.

18             JUDGE KWON:  She put the question and the witness answered the

19     question.  If you like to put -- for the part you can do that in your

20     re-examination.

21             MS. GUSTAFSON:

22        Q.   Mr. Nedic, in your statement and several times already today you

23     reiterated the claim that you viewed -- your -- what you claim was your

24     view at the time which was that throughout the war you thought the Serbs

25     should sit down and negotiate and the parties should not wage war.

Page 45879

 1             But at the time, you, in fact, insisted that the borders that had

 2     been created by force could not be changed by the maps agreed to in the

 3     negotiations, didn't you?

 4        A.   I never recognised the borders of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  I

 5     still do not recognise the state borders that we have now, that have just

 6     been created, because this will also have to be renegotiated.

 7             The Balkans is not in order.  It has been shaken.  How it is

 8     going to be put in place, I don't know.  I was not the one who shook it.

 9     Karadzic wasn't one either.  If anybody deserves the Nobel prize for

10     peace and humanity, it is Dr. Radovan Karadzic.  During the six years

11     that we worked together, I learnt that.

12             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we go to P1394, page 85 of the English and

13     page 78 of the B/C/S, please.  Should be three pages forward in the

14     B/C/S.  One more page, please.  Sorry, next page in the B/C/S, please.

15     Thank you.

16        Q.   Now you can see this is where you begin speaking, Mr. Nedic.  The

17     passage, I wanted to direct you to is on the next page in both languages,

18     and it begins about four lines down in both languages.

19             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If I could have the next page in both.  Thank

20     you.

21        Q.   And just to orient you, this is a session where the main point of

22     discussion was the peace plan proposed by the contact group and, in

23     particular, the maps attached to that plan.  And you state:

24             "The border on Ozren mountain has already been drawn, the graves

25     and trenches show that border, no one can register maps there.  The one

Page 45880

 1     who wants to make new maps on Ozren mountain will have to move those

 2     trenches, will have to move the graves."

 3             And then a few lines down you say:

 4             "Let me repeat the words from the folk poem:  The meadow is my

 5     patrimony, my grandfather got it with a sword, my grandchildren will keep

 6     it with a sword."

 7             And then you say:

 8             "The suggestion is in these words, it is all clear, the maps are

 9     drawn with the graves and trenches.  And those who intend to draw new

10     ones, let there be an endless battle.  Flowers will spring for some

11     future generations.  Thank you."

12             That was the view you expressed at the time, wasn't it,

13     Mr. Nedic?  The borders at Ozren have been drawn with trenches and graves

14     and anyone who wants to move them with negotiated maps will face an

15     endless battle.

16        A.   [No interpretation]

17        Q.   Sorry, if you could just repeat your answer.  I don't think it

18     was caught on record.

19             Perhaps I'll just repeat my question, Mr. Nedic.  That was the

20     view you expressed at the time.  The border --

21        A.   There's no need.

22        Q.   Okay.

23        A.   Ozren is a mountain and it's between four rivers, Bosna, Speca,

24     Turija.  Those were the borders that we held and we defended ourselves

25     from attacks from the Muslim-Croat army.  On that boundary, in that

Page 45881

 1     defence, hundreds of young men were killed, and people from Ozren, their

 2     graves are there, and that is that boundary that I spoke about.  That

 3     boundary exists to this day, although half of Ozren had fallen.  And it

 4     had fallen on the basis of the Dayton Peace Agreement.  The Muslims

 5     exterminated everyone in that area, and there aren't even any bricks

 6     left.  People had been expelled.  My house, my property, everything was

 7     destroyed, torched.  That is the effect of the Dayton Agreement and the

 8     Muslim offensive on Ozren.  And also, it is the consequence of NATO bombs

 9     that destroyed the relay tower at Ozren, and five young men were killed

10     there by a single missile fired by NATO aircraft.

11        Q.   Okay.  Mr. Nedic, you agree, though, that despite what you've

12     said today about being in favour of reaching a negotiated solution, what

13     you said at the time about Ozren was that the borders had been created by

14     trenches and graves, and anyone who wanted to move those borders by

15     negotiated maps faced an endless battle.

16             That was the view you expressed at the time; right?

17        A.   Serb people still live in Ozren.  I returned to that land,

18     although everything was destroyed, although it is in the Federation.  I

19     did not give up on my land, on the land of my forefathers and I'm never

20     going to give up on that, and I'm never going to sell it either.  Now how

21     this will be regulated, how Bosnia will be regulated, I don't know.  It

22     hasn't been regulated yet.  There is still chaos there.  There is still

23     the Vehabije there.  There are all sorts of things there.  Europe should

24     help regulate this, rather than sow discord.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.

Page 45882

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In lines 12 and 13, the witness

 3     said:  There are still Vehabije there.  Perhaps that's a problem for the

 4     interpreters.  Maybe they would interpret it as Wahabists.  Those are

 5     extremists from Saudi Arabia.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 7             Yes, Ms. Gustafson, do you have further questions?

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Two final questions, Your Honour.

 9        Q.   Mr. Nedic, you have stated today that you agreed that Serbs faced

10     extermination in a state governed by Muslims.  You claim that you have

11     lived for 500 years under Sharia law.  You claimed that the Muslims have

12     exterminated everyone in the Ozren area post-Dayton.  You state at the

13     time that the Bosnian Muslims were a religious sect who should -- with

14     whom the Serbs should not negotiate.  And you said that you would kill

15     yourself if the -- if Ozren went to the Muslim side.

16             Now you lived and live in great fear of the Muslim people;

17     correct?

18        A.   Well, that's true.

19        Q.   And at the 17th Session, Mr. Nedic, when you said, "We are a

20     people who have been determined to be executioners and do someone a

21     favour.  In 100 years, we will regret each of these moves if we make a

22     mistake," you were advocating taking the opportunity that you believed

23     presented itself to eliminate the Muslim people, people with whom you

24     lived in great fear, once and for all so you do not have to face these

25     historical enemies again in 100 years.

Page 45883

 1             That was basically your message in that speech; correct?

 2        A.   I never advocated the extermination of the Muslim people.  The

 3     only thing I hold against the Muslims as a religious group or people,

 4     whatever you wish, is that they are forcing me to have to fire at them

 5     too.

 6             That is what I find the hardest of all.

 7        Q.   I have nothing further.

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, you have -- any re-examination, Mr. Karadzic?

10                           [Defence counsel confer]

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, Excellency.  All the documents

12     have been admitted, and I really wouldn't want to go further on the basis

13     of that.  Thank you.  I'm not going to put any further questions.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

15             Mr. Nedic, that concludes your evidence.  On behalf of the

16     Chamber, I would like to thank you for your coming to The Hague.  Now you

17     are free to go.

18             THE WITNESS:  [No interpretation]

19             JUDGE KWON:  If the usher could tell the witness we didn't hear

20     anything so ...

21             No, like -- could you tell him he could be excused.

22                           [The witness withdrew]

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, is the next witness ready?

24             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE KWON:  While we are waiting for the witness to be brought

Page 45884

 1     in, what's the schedule for tomorrow, Mr. Robinson?

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, the next witness who is coming in,

 3     Branko Davidovic, is the last witness that we have here this week, so

 4     when we complete his testimony tomorrow, we will not have any further

 5     business.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Speaking for myself, I'm a bit concerned about

 7     this -- this schedule.  These days we are losing time extensively.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  We've had five witnesses today, Mr. President.  I

 9     don't know how much you can expect from us.  We have to proof all of

10     these witnesses, prepare for them, and when we work at this pace,

11     sometimes we will have some extra time.  I don't think we can bring any

12     more witnesses.  We brought eight witnesses this week.  I really don't

13     think we could bring any more in a week and proof them and prepare for

14     them.  So if it goes as quickly as it does, we don't have much

15     alternative but to have some extra time.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Bear with me a minute.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18                           [The witness entered court]

19             JUDGE KWON:  If the witness could be seated and wait a minute.

20             Please be seated.  Just -- there are some matters to deal with.

21             What's the schedule like for next week, Mr. Robinson?

22             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  We have five witnesses

23     scheduled next week as well as General Mladic.  We had another witness

24     who we hoped to bring, but we have -- had to ask for safe conduct for the

25     witness at the last minute because when we started arranging for his

Page 45885

 1     travel, Victims and Witness Unit learned that he had some prohibition

 2     against entering the Schengen area, so we had to postpone his testimony,

 3     so we don't have as many witnesses next week to fill the entire week as

 4     we had hoped.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  I'll leave it at that for the moment.  But in the

 6     meantime, I would like you to try your best not to lose any more time in

 7     the future.

 8             Yes, would the witness make the solemn declaration.

 9             THE ACCUSED:  May I say something, Excellency.

10             My --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Just -- I told the witness to take the solemn

12     declaration, please.

13             I'll hear from you later on.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

15     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16                           WITNESS:  BRANKO DAVIDOVIC

17                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Davidovic.  Please be

19     seated.  Make yourself comfortable.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I say one sentence in respect

23     of the previous topic?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I came here in perfect health.

Page 45886

 1     It's no longer perfect.  I authorised the medical service to sent my

 2     health bulletins to you.  Our tempo of work is really terrible.  I'm not

 3     20-something any longer.  I'm three times older than that.  So please

 4     take that into account as well.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  With respect to the topic we just discussed, do you

 6     have any observation to make, Mr. Tieger?  Scheduling.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  I don't wish to pile on, Mr. President.  I -- if I

 8     have the impression from my dealings with Mr. Robinson that he was or he

 9     and his team were doing less than their utmost, and I -- I -- I would

10     have brought that forced to his attention and I would do the same with

11     the Chamber.  We're not always in agreement about the efficiency or sort

12     of reliability of everything that is going on.  Mr. Robinson knows that.

13     But I would not suggest that when Mr. Robinson says that he and his team

14     are straining themselves to the utmost that he is expressing anything

15     other than what I have come to understand is -- is the case.

16             Now I have offered some suggestions about more efficiency.  I see

17     the Trial Chamber has some urging about additional matters that could be

18     taken.  Mr. Karadzic responded to that about what their capacities may

19     be.  I think those are all factors to be taken into consideration, but

20     I -- I have raised in a related way these sort of similar concerns of

21     Mr. Robinson because it puts a strain on the Prosecution when everything

22     doesn't run as smoothly as -- as possible, but Mr. Robinson has talked

23     with me about that, and I can appreciate the struggle and the -- I

24     believe, the sincere efforts he is making to deal with that.

25             That's about all I can share with the Court except to say that

Page 45887

 1     behind the scenes, it can be an immense struggle for everyone.  I will

 2     commit myself to letting the Court know if, for some reason, I think less

 3     than an optimum effort is being made by anyone, but I'm not in a position

 4     to say that now.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 6             Yes, thank you for your understanding, Mr. Davidovic.  Before you

 7     commence your evidence, I must draw your attention to a certain rule that

 8     we have here at the international Tribunal; that is, Rule 90(E).  Under

 9     this rule, you may object to answering any question from Mr. Karadzic,

10     the Prosecutor, or even from the Judges, if you believe that your answer

11     might incriminate you in a criminal offence.

12             In this context, incriminate means saying something that might

13     amount to an admission of guilt for a criminal offence or saying

14     something that might provide evidence that you might have committed a

15     criminal offence.  However, should you think that an answer might

16     incriminate you and as a consequence you refuse to answer the question, I

17     must let you know that the Tribunal has the power to compel you to answer

18     the question.  But in that situation, the Tribunal would ensure that your

19     testimony compelled under such circumstances would not be used in any

20     case that might be laid against you for any offence save and except the

21     offence of giving false testimony.

22             Do you understand that, Mr. Davidovic?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand all of it.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

25             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.

Page 45888

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Davidovic.

 4        A.   Good day, Mr. President.

 5        Q.   Please, let us speak slowly, both of us, so that what we say can

 6     be recorded.  Also, let us pause between my questions and your answers.

 7     So if you look at the cursor you will see when the interpretation is

 8     over.

 9             Have you provided my Defence team with a statement?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

13     1D9665 in e-court.

14             [Microphone not activated]

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Would you please focus on the left-hand side of the screen.

18     That's the Serbian version.

19             Do you see the first page of your statement on the screen?

20        A.   Yes, I do see the first page of my statement.

21        Q.   Have you read and signed this statement?

22        A.   Yes, I have read and signed that statement.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

25     the last page so that he could identify the signature.

Page 45889

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Is that your signature?

 3        A.   Yes, that is my signature.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Did this statement faithfully reflect what you

 5     communicated to the Defence team or would you like something to be

 6     corrected?

 7        A.   For the time being, I have no objections and I'm not asking for

 8     any corrections to be made.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to put the same questions to you today, the

10     same as those that were put to you when this statement was taken, would

11     your answers basically be the same?

12        A.   Yes, my answers would basically be the same.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender

15     Mr. Branko Davidovic's statement into evidence according to Rule 92 ter.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have any objections, Ms. McKenna?

17             MS. McKENNA:  No objection, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we will receive it.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D4233, Your Honours.

20             MR. ROBINSON:  There's one associated exhibit, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  1D9602, you do not object to the admission of

22     it?

23             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honour, I believe that exhibit is already

24     admitted -- or that document, rather, is already admitted as P3663.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please check it, Mr. Robinson, and come

Page 45890

 1     back if it is not the case.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             Now I'm going to read out in the English language a brief summary

 6     of Mr. Branko Davidovic's statement.

 7             [In English] Branko Davidovic responded to the mobilisation

 8     carried out by the 6th Krajina Light Infantry Brigade in 1992 and was

 9     assigned to the post of battalion commander and soon after as the

10     assistant of the commander of morale on the level of brigade.

11             Before the war broke out, the interethnic relations between the

12     Serbian, Muslim, and Croatian citizens in Sanski Most municipality were

13     good.  In the first multi-party elections in Sanski Most, the SDS got the

14     greatest number of votes and it therefore formed the local authorities.

15     Although there were almost as many Muslims as Serbs, the Muslims had far

16     fewer voters because the average Muslim family has five to six children,

17     most of whom were under voting age.

18             At the local level, the SDA was under enormous pressure from the

19     SDA in Sarajevo and they were -- soon revealed their political goals as

20     being the cessation of BH from Yugoslavia and the creation of a unitary

21     state.  The local HDZ was also under pressure from the HDZ leadership in

22     Sarajevo and the HDZ from the Republic of Croatia.  The policy of the HDZ

23     leadership immediately before the war was that Bosnia should secede from

24     Yugoslavia, after which the parts of BH populated by Croats and the

25     territories that mattered to the Croats were to be annexed to the

Page 45891

 1     Republic of Croatia.

 2             When the confrontations reached the level wanted to -- wanted by

 3     the Muslims and Croatian separatists, a referendum on the independence of

 4     BH was organised.  The Serbs did not take part in the referendum.  And in

 5     response to the memorandum of independence, Serbs organised plebiscite in

 6     which the absolute majority of Serbs and many other citizens were voted

 7     for preference to preserve the -- both peace and common state of

 8     Yugoslavia.  When the responsible command assessed that the security of

 9     the state and citizens were threatened, it orders a mobilisation of the

10     commands and units of the 6th Krajina Light Infantry Brigade in

11     Sanski Most.  The Serbs and a small number of Muslim and Croatian

12     citizens responded to the mobilisation.  In the month of June 1991, the

13     6th Krajina Light Infantry Brigade set off for the general sector of

14     Jasenovac in Croatia.

15             In Sanski Most municipality or in places where the Muslims and

16     Croats were the majority population, Serbian citizens had already noticed

17     that the Muslims and Croats were arming themselves, forming armed groups

18     and units, and organising village guards.  Due to fear, village guards

19     were also organised in response in the places where the Serbs lived.

20     The memory of the crimes committed against the Serbs during the

21     Second World War contributed to increase the fear.  On 2nd and

22     3rd of April, 1992, the 6th Krajina Light Infantry Brigade was allowed to

23     return to Sanski Most municipality in order to prevent interethnic

24     conflicts.  The Muslims entered by force and blockaded the municipality

25     building in the hope of seizing power because the Serbs had won the

Page 45892

 1     largest numbers of seats in the municipal assembly and the president of

 2     the municipal assembly was also a Serb.  Information gathered by the

 3     security services in Sanski Most revealed that many Muslims and Croats

 4     were armed and paramilitary units had already been formed, and so

 5     operative measures were taken to crack down on these developments.

 6     Appeals were made to eminent Muslim and Croatian citizens in key

 7     communities to speak to their fellow citizens and ask them to collect and

 8     surrender all illegal weapons.

 9             In order to find and disarm Muslim and Croatian paramilitary

10     formations, groups and individuals, the units of the

11     6th Krajina Light Infantry Brigade legitimately checked and searched

12     populated places in Sanski Most municipality on the 25th of May, 1992.

13     About ten members of Mr. Davidovic's unit were killed or wounded in the

14     fighting around Hrustovo village.  This is a clear example that there was

15     a well-armed unit with the strength of one battalion in Hrustovo and that

16     the brigade was not fighting unarmed civilians.

17             The security services identified and located in their operative

18     work individuals and groups that were illegally armed in Sanski Most

19     municipality, and these people and those connected with them were found

20     and arrested.  In the number of suspects increased -- as the number of

21     suspects increased and more people had to be accommodated before the

22     interviews could take place, a remand prison was set up at the Betonirka,

23     and reception centres were set up in the Famos sports hall and factory.

24     People were not brought in at random and civilians were not arrested.

25             And that is the short summary, and at that moment, I do not have

Page 45893

 1     questions for Mr. Davidovic.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Mr. Davidovic, as you have noted, your

 3     evidence in-chief in this case has been admitted in writing.  That is,

 4     through your written statement in lieu of your oral testimony.

 5             Now you will be cross-examined by the representative of the

 6     Office of the Prosecutor.

 7             Ms. McKenna, do you like that start today or do it tomorrow?

 8             MS. McKENNA:  I'm in Your Honours' hands.  I'm happy to do

 9     whichever Your Honour would like.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Then let us start.

11                           Cross-examination by Ms. McKenna:

12        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, just to begin with, a -- I'd like to clarify a

13     preliminary point from your statement.

14             In paragraph 1, you say that you used to be a teacher.  That was

15     a teacher at a primary school in Tomina; is that correct?

16        A.   No.  I taught in Donja Kamengrad and in the Narodni Front school

17     in Sanski Most.  That's where I taught school.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Now, at paragraph 14 of your statement, you say that

19     when you joined the 1st -- the 6th Brigade you were first assigned as the

20     battalion commander and then you subsequently became the assistant

21     commander for morale.  We'll come onto the operations in which you were

22     involved as a battalion commander, but I'd like to focus briefly on your

23     role as assistant commander for morale.

24             Now, you were responsible in this role for reporting to the

25     1st Krajina Corps Command on morale issues; is that correct?

Page 45894

 1        A.   That is correct, yes.

 2        Q.   And on the basis of these reports, the 1st Krajina Brigade

 3     Command would report to the VRS Main Staff on the state of combat -- of

 4     morale in Sanski Most municipality.  That's correct, isn't it?

 5        A.   I suppose so.  That was the chain of command, and that's how

 6     things should have been.

 7        Q.   Now, I'd like to look at first at the document which you assisted

 8     in drafting.  That's P3663.

 9             And I'd like to focus on the English page 4 and B/C/S page 5 of

10     this document.

11             Now, this, Mr. Davidovic, is the part of the document in which

12     you state in paragraph 16 of your statement that the situation is clearly

13     presented.

14             If we could focus towards the bottom of the page in English.

15             And you're discussing the situation -- the Muslim leadership in

16     Sanski Most municipality, and you state, the document states:

17             "The documents found show that they intended to commit a genocide

18     against the Serbian people, killed them, and expel them, and create a

19     Muslim state in these parts.  All renowned Serbs and their families were

20     to killed and hanged in the park in Sanski Most.  Serbian girls and women

21     were to be put in brothels to bear offspring to the Mujahedin, and the

22     Janissaries, Sharia law and government were to be introduced as in Iran.

23     Male Serbian children were to be circumcised and brought up according to

24     Islamic laws and principles."

25             Now, this was the type of information that you, as assistant

Page 45895

 1     commander for morale, were providing your troops, was it?

 2        A.   What you're just saying, this information was collected by the

 3     public security service and the public security services in the units.

 4     Based on the reports that they submitted to the authorised bodies,

 5     revealed the facts that you have just read out to us.

 6        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, on -- in paragraph 13 of your statement, you say

 7     that on returning to Sanski Most, the brigade installed itself in

 8     Lusci Palanka and the break -- brigade command thought that it would in

 9     this way help to calm tensions between the divided citizens.

10             Now Colonel Branko Basara was the commander of your brigade;

11     correct?

12        A.   That's correct.

13        Q.   Could we please see P3660.

14             Mr. Davidovic, this is the war-time record of the 6th Brigade

15     written by Colonel Basara.

16             Could we turn to page 2 of the English and page 3 of the B/C/S,

17     please.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm seeking explanation.  Is this a

19     war diary, or was this written subsequently?  Is this a memoire?

20             JUDGE KWON:  We dealt with this issue.  Probably you raised this.

21     But this is already admitted.

22             But if could you help Mr. Karadzic, Ms. McKenna.

23             MS. McKENNA:  I believe it's clear from the context that it was

24     written in 1992.  And it's entitled:  War record of the 6th Brigade.  But

25     as Your Honour has pointed out, it is already in evidence.

Page 45896

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Please continue.

 2             MS. McKENNA:  Thank you.

 3        Q.   Now at -- under heading 4 in this document, Mr. -- or Colonel

 4     Basara states:

 5             "On 3rd of April, 1991, the 6th was transferred in complete order

 6     and with the utmost secrecy from Jasenovac to the area of Sanski Most so

 7     that everyone was surprised."

 8             That should be a reference to the 3rd of April, 1992, shouldn't

 9     it?

10        A.   The brigade arrived between the 3rd and 4th of April in 1992 from

11     the Jasenovac sector to Sanski Most municipality, i.e., to Lusci Palanka,

12     and that place is some 25 kilometres away from Sanski Most and it is

13     mostly inhabited by Serbs --

14        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ... I'm going to -- sorry to

15     interrupt you.  I'm going to ask you to just listen to my

16     questions and -- carefully and answer them as concisely as possible.  And

17     your answer to that was yes, I believe.

18             If we look at what Colonel Basara says next, he states that:

19             "With the arrival of the brigade on this territory, the Muslims

20     and Croats became afraid, and the Serbs heaved a sigh of relief."

21             So this was the reality, wasn't it?  That the brigade's command

22     didn't install itself in Lusci Palanka in order to calm tensions.  It

23     installed itself there to reassure the Serb population and to instill

24     fear in the non-Serb population.

25        A.   I don't think so.  The contrary is true.  If the brigade had been

Page 45897

 1     destroyed in an area with a Muslim population, they would have considered

 2     to be at risk and to be put under pressure by the brigade to do something

 3     that they didn't want to do.

 4        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, you've said in paragraph 16 of your statement that

 5     the basic task of the brigade was to prevent interethnic conflicts and to

 6     secure the public property of all citizens of the municipality.

 7             Now here in this document, Colonel Basara continues:

 8             "We ordered the Serbs to arm themselves quickly and replenish the

 9     unit.  Since our task as a JNA unit was to prevent conflicts between the

10     nationalities, that is, to prevent the slaughter of the Serbian people,

11     we could not publicly arm the Serbs."

12             So that's the truth.  The brigade's task wasn't to protect all of

13     the population, regardless of ethnicity.  The brigade's task was to

14     protect the Serbian people.

15        A.   At first, when the turmoil started, the brigade had the task to

16     prevent interethnic conflicts.  The brigade was armed from regular

17     depots, according to the number of people that it was supposed to have,

18     according to formation.  People who joined the unit received personal

19     weapons, so it didn't arm anybody else but its own members who were

20     called up and who responded to call-ups and joined the unit.

21        Q.   And on the topic of the people that responded to the call-ups,

22     you say, in paragraph 14, that when the brigade arrived in Sanski Most,

23     it carried out an additional mobilisation in the hope that Muslims,

24     Croats, and Serbs would respond to the mobilisation.

25             I'd like you to look at what Colonel Basara, your commander,

Page 45898

 1     said, on this topic.  And it's on the same page halfway down.  And he

 2     states:  "We had to resort to a trick" -- excuse me, it's at page 3 of

 3     the B/C/S.

 4             Yeah.

 5             "We had to resort to a trick to make it possible for us to arm

 6     the Serbs publicly and legally.  The story was devised that the commander

 7     of the 1st Krajina Corps had ordered the 6th to be promoted from a light

 8     to an infantry brigade and that it could have as many as 15 battalions

 9     but the brigade should be demobilised as soon as possible so that the

10     Muslims and Croats would not enlist in the brigade.  It was put about

11     that as soon as mobilisation finished, it was leaving for Kupres.  Then

12     conditions were made to legally arm and form nine battalions."

13             So, in fact, Mr. Davidovic, contrary to your statement, there was

14     no hope that non-Serbs would respond to the mobilisation.  Rather, your

15     commander, Colonel Basara, was going do some length to actively prevent

16     non-Serbs from joining your brigade.

17             THE ACCUSED:  Could we have the Serbian -- adequate Serbian page.

18             JUDGE KWON:  I think Ms. McKenna said next -- next page.

19             MS. McKENNA: [Overlapping speakers] ... passage continues on

20     page 4, excuse me.

21             THE ACCUSED:  Partly.  It was partly on this, yeah.

22             MS. McKENNA:

23        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, can you answer the question?

24             The question is:  Contrary to your statement, there was no hope

25     that the -- that non-Serbs would join your brigade.  Rather, your

Page 45899

 1     brigade's commander was actively trying to prevent Muslims and Croats

 2     from joining your brigade.

 3        A.   This document -- I can see that it is a handwritten document.  I

 4     don't know whose handwriting this is.  I only know that the truth of the

 5     matter was this.  Muslims and Croats did not respond to call-ups, save

 6     for a very small number.  And there were few of them who stayed in the

 7     unit practically until the very end of the war, and they didn't have any

 8     problems.  This was probably done, I'm sure it was done in order to

 9     prevent any interethnic or conflicts as much as possible.

10             I never heard that the brigade had 19 battalions and that it was

11     deployed in Kupres.  At one point, we had 11 battalions and, after a

12     while, due to the age and the low level of equipment and many other

13     reasons, the brigade reduced the number of its members to a total of six

14     battalions.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honour, this would be a good point to break.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll adjourn here for today and continue

18     tomorrow morning at 9.00.

19             Mr. Davidovic, I would like to advise you not to discuss with

20     anybody else about your testimony.

21             Hearing is adjourned.

22                           [The witness stands down]

23                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.49 p.m.,

24                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 23rd day of

25                           January, 2014, at 9.00 a.m.