1 Tuesday, 28 January 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.16 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone.
7 I noticed that Mr. Mladic is here as the next witness. For the
8 record, I note that the start of the proceedings for today has been
9 delayed by 15 minutes, upon the request of counsel for Mr. Mladic.
10 Also, for the purpose of the record, I'd like the counsel for
11 Mr. Mladic to introduce himself.
12 MR. LUKIC: Good morning, Your Honours.
13 I'm Branko Lukic, and today I'm here on behalf of Mr. Mladic.
14 JUDGE KWON: Good morning to you, Mr. Lukic. Thank you.
15 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
16 JUDGE KWON: Before we proceed with Mr. Mladic's testimony by way
17 of introduction and background, the Chamber briefly notes the following:
18 The accused in this case, Mr. Karadzic, filed a motion for
19 subpoena for Mr. Mladic on the 18th of April, 2013. On the
20 5th of July, 2013, the Chamber informed the parties that it would
21 postpone the determination of this motion until such time as the
22 Appeals Chamber issued its decision on the Zdravko Tolimir's appeal of
23 this Chamber's decision compelling Tolimir to testify in this present
25 On the 13th of November, 2013, the Appeals Chamber issued its
1 decision with respect to the Tolimir appeal in which it denied Tolimir's
2 appeal and held that the protection against self-incrimination afforded
3 to the Tribunal's accused persons, pursuant to Article 21(4) of the
4 Tribunal's Statute does not preclude the possibility of accused persons
5 being compelled to testify in proceedings which do not involve the
6 determination of the charges against them.
7 On the 11th of December, 2013, the Chamber issued its decision on
8 the subpoena motion, finding that the requirements for the issuance of a
9 subpoena to Mladic had been met and that Mladic's submissions relating to
10 his ill health and his commitments to his own case did not rise to a
11 level that the Chamber should exercise its discretion against issuing the
13 On the 23rd of December, 2013, the Chamber denied Mladic's
14 request for certification for leave to appeal the decision to subpoena
15 Mladic and on the 22nd of January, 2014, denied the Prosecution and
16 Mladic motions for reconsideration of this certification decision.
17 Now I turn to Mr. Mladic.
18 MR. LUKIC: I'm sorry, Your Honour, for interrupting you. I know
19 this is not usual.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Lukic.
21 MR. LUKIC: I informed your staff that I would kindly ask
22 Your Honours to allow me just several minutes to address Your Honours
23 this morning before the testimony of Mr. Mladic.
24 JUDGE KWON: By all means, Mr. Lukic, yes. You have the floor.
25 MR. LUKIC: Thank you.
1 As Your Honour just read, we filed several motions to prevent
2 Mr. Mladic from testifying, and this time I will just briefly try to add
3 several new points and emphasise some of the most important topics.
4 In our view, Mr. Mladic cannot and does not want to testify
5 because of his poor health. Upon the advice of ourselves as counsel, he
6 hereby invokes his right not to testify, due to the unfair prejudice and
7 harm that would be result from said testimony, not only to his health,
8 but to the rights of afforded to him in his own case.
9 We have been told by medical experts, among other things, that he
10 suffers from deception of memory. This is a category of memory disorder,
11 meaning that someone cannot differentiate between the truth and fiction
12 because they are confident they speak the truth even if not doing so.
13 Because of gaps in their memory due to the damage caused by the stroke or
14 other injury, they make up facts to fill up the holes and believe these
15 facts are the truth.
16 We believe this renders Mr. Mladic unfit to testify as a witness.
17 In addition, two Defence medical experts and one of three experts
18 appointed by the Registry have concluded he is at risk of
19 transient ischemic attack if exposed to stress. We believe this, too,
20 makes it inappropriate and harmful for him to be forced to testify.
21 We ask that Mr. Mladic be examined by a team of experts who would
22 determine his medical condition and if he were able to testify. Due to
23 his poor health condition, Mr. Mladic is not able to read and analyse the
24 documents with his attorneys, which is necessary in order to prepare for
25 his testimony. Moreover, he is not able to concentrate and analyse a
1 single document.
2 If we were able to -- if he were able to testify, he would
3 testify in his own case, but because of his poor health, he cannot do
4 that. His indictment, as you know, is almost identical to the indictment
5 of Mr. Karadzic. His trial is still ongoing, and no one can force him to
6 testify at his own trial. Forcing him to testify in this case is the
7 nullification of his right to remain silent.
8 It is our humble position that, by this procedure, the Tribunal
9 violates his basic human rights.
10 And, at the end, I just want to thank you once again for letting
11 me shortly express our views on this topic.
12 Thank you, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Lukic, for your submission.
14 If the parties would make any observation with regard to the
15 submission of Mr. Lukic.
16 First, Mr. Robinson.
17 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, thank you, Mr. President.
18 Mr. President, I believe that you have already ruled on all of
19 these issues that have now been placed before you. And I would note that
20 Dr. Karadzic believes that General Mladic is the one person in the whole
21 world who knows best what happened during the war in Bosnia. And this is
22 Dr. Karadzic's front line right here between the Prosecution and him.
23 And he is asking General Mladic to do his best to help him show the truth
24 of what happened during the war. Because, for Dr. Karadzic, he's --
25 believes he's fighting not only for his own freedom but for the
1 continuity and existence of the Republika Srpska. And so he realises
2 it's difficult for General Mladic, that General Mladic is not well, but
3 he asks him to do his best and to give the best testimony he can give
4 here today.
5 Thank you.
6 JUDGE KWON: Thank you Mr. Robinson.
7 Yes, Mr. Tieger.
8 MR. TIEGER: Mr. President, let me begin by noting that in our
9 submission, Mr. Robinson's position borders on, if not spills over into
10 an inappropriate pitch to a witness that would not in normal
11 circumstances be countenance.
12 I think the Court is aware of the Prosecutor's position on this
13 matter. I think it was expressed fairly clearly in our motion for
14 reconsideration. As Mr. Robinson has noted, these issues have been
15 submitted and ruled upon.
16 I leave it to the Chamber whether or not Mr. Lukic's submissions
17 add anything to the Court's analysis upon which its position earlier
18 rested, but we would otherwise have nothing to add to our earlier
19 submissions with which the Court is thoroughly familiar, I believe.
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Lukic, the -- with respect to your points with
22 regard to alleged violation of Mr. Mladic's right, the Chamber is of the
23 view the issue has been sufficiently dealt with in our previous
25 And with respect to the health issue, while the Chamber notes
1 your submission, but finds that a further independent medical assessment
2 is not required at this stage.
3 In its decision granting the motion to subpoena Mr. Mladic and
4 denying the motion for certification, the Chamber was satisfied that it
5 had sufficient medical information before us in deciding that
6 Mr. Mladic's health concerns didn't rise to a level that would warrant
7 the Chamber exercising its discretion not to grant the subpoena. And
8 there's nothing to suggest that there have been new developments since
9 then which would warrant a further medical assessment.
10 Therefore, we deny the request.
11 But the Chamber, of course, notes that it is amenable to
12 suggestions as to how to organise today's and tomorrow's sitting schedule
13 to address any health concerns Mr. Mladic may have. And we deal with his
14 right as it rises, in particular, his rights pursuant to Rule 90(E) and
15 Article 21.
16 Now I turn to Mr. Mladic.
17 Mr. Mladic, would you kindly rise and make the solemn
18 declaration, please.
19 Mr. Mladic, do you hear me in the language you understand?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do, Mr. Kwon.
21 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Will you make the solemn declaration.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Kwon, ladies and gentlemen, as
23 for this Hague Tribunal, this Court, I cannot stand it, and I do not
24 recognise it, and I cannot testify before it. I cannot take an oath.
25 Because this is pressure against me as a person, against my health,
1 against my people. These continue to be sanctions, and things have
2 really been brought to an end.
3 I kindly request that you give me the following possibility.
4 With all due respect to President Radovan Karadzic and the efforts that
5 he made and has made for the salvation of our people, and I contributed
6 somewhat to doing some good, I wouldn't want this trial to fail, so I
7 would like to ask you, if you have the possibility and the time, to hear
8 me out. I wrote seven pages last night before Saint Sava's Day. Today
9 is Saint Sava's Day. So if you don't mind, I would like to read that
10 out. And after that, I can take an oath.
11 I do not recognise this Hague Court. It is a NATO creation. It
12 is a Satanic court, not a court of justice, and it is trying us because
13 we are Serbs, because we protect our people from you. It --
14 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Mladic, I'm cutting you off. Please be seated.
15 I will consult my colleagues.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Mladic, as you know, we have our rules in which
18 our proceedings should proceed. So I would recommend you, again, to take
19 the oath and answer the question, if you will, to the questions posed by
20 Mr. Karadzic.
21 We will not allow you to read out the documents.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I kindly ask that you allow me to
23 read out not a document but my statement that you will be interested in.
24 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Mladic, I must let you know that wilful refusal
25 to comply with the terms of subpoena may constitute contempt of the
1 Tribunal which is punishable after the 1st of July, 2013, pursuant to
2 Rule 90 of the Rules of Mechanisms for International Criminal Tribunals
3 by a term of imprisonment not exceeding seven years, a fine not exceeding
4 50.000 euros, or both.
5 So I will ask you for the last time: Will you take the solemn
6 declaration, Mr. Mladic.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Kwon, you are considerably
8 younger than I am. You are exerting pressure against me for no reason
9 whatsoever. I'm not afraid of anyone but God. My conscience is clear
10 with regard to all matters.
11 Your subpoenas and your platitudes at the The Hague Tribunal and
12 your false indictments, I don't care one bit about any of that. I don't
13 want to tire these people over there, and all of you. I am going to make
14 this statement but I do not recognise your Court, The Hague Tribunal. It
15 does not exist for me --
16 JUDGE KWON: So I turn to you, Mr. Lukic.
17 It's clear that Mr. Mladic is refusing to testify.
18 MR. LUKIC: He is waiting now to --
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, I am going to testify.
20 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Please proceed.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Don't be nervous, Mr. Kwon. You're
22 from Korea. Bells of alarm are ringing there too.
23 I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
24 and nothing but the truth.
25 WITNESS: RATKO MLADIC
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And could the security people
3 please bring my teeth from the cell so that I could speak better.
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes, the Registry will take care of it.
5 Do you like to have a short adjournment?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Yes.
7 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE KWON: Apparently seems okay, but it -- I will turn to you
10 as well, Mr. Lukic.
11 And, Mr. Mladic, if it is not possible for you to speak without
12 denture, we'll rise for some time. Because I was told that you left your
13 denture at the Detention Unit.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 JUDGE KWON: So you like to testify when denture arrives?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. Yes. Because I haven't
17 got any teeth now.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, the Chamber is of the view it's better for rise
20 for 15 or 20 minutes in order to understand him better.
21 We'll have a break for 20 minutes and resume at 10.00.
22 --- Break taken at 9.40 a.m.
23 --- On resuming at 10.26 a.m.
24 JUDGE KWON: Very well. I now turn to you, Mr. Mladic.
25 Before you commence your evidence, I'm --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm not receiving interpretation.
2 JUDGE KWON: Do you hear me now? Just -- if the usher could
3 assist the witness hearing --
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now it's fine.
5 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay.
7 JUDGE KWON: Now do you hear me well?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear you, Mr. Kwon.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes. I will repeat.
10 Before you commence your evidence I must draw your attention to a
11 certain rule of evidence that we have here at the Tribunal; that is,
12 Rule 90(E). As you may know well, under this rule you may object to
13 answering any question from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecutor, or even from
14 the Judges, if you believe that your answer might incriminate you in a
15 criminal offence.
16 In this context, "incriminate" means saying something that might
17 amount to an admission of guilt for a criminal offence, or saying
18 something that might provide evidence that you might have committed a
19 criminal offence.
20 However, should you think that your answer might incriminate you
21 and as a consequence you refuse to answer the question, I must let you
22 know that the Tribunal has the power to compel you to answer the
23 question. But, in that situation, the Tribunal would ensure that your
24 testimony compelled under such circumstances would not be used in any
25 case that might be laid against you for any offence, save and except the
1 offence of giving false testimony.
2 I take it that you understand that, Mr. Mladic.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, Comrade Kwon.
4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
5 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Excellencies. Good
7 morning to everyone.
8 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, General, sir.
10 A. Good morning.
11 Q. General, sir, you wanted to say something to the Chamber and the
12 parties to the proceedings. I do not want to deprive you of that
13 opportunity. Can I invite you to state what you wanted to say now as
14 part of your testimony after you have given an oath.
15 A. Mr. President --
16 JUDGE KWON: I will have a word with my colleagues as to --
17 whether to allow it. Please be seated for the moment.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE KWON: As you know well, Mr. Karadzic, this is not an
20 examination in direct --
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, this -- this form of a -- allowing the witness
23 to speak at his liberty is not conducive to finding the truth as we ruled
24 in your mode of testimony earlier on. We'll not allow you to ask the
25 witness to read out his statement.
1 Please proceed with your examination-in-chief.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have now received a
3 correction in the interpretation because, first, I was told that you
4 would allow it, but I now hear you will not allow it. Very well.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. General, sir, I hope that you will have an opportunity to say
7 what you wanted to say on cross-examination or in response to my
9 Can you tell us what were the positions you held during your
10 military career in the briefest of terms?
11 A. Mr. President, Honourable Judges, I'm 71. I held numerous
12 positions throughout my career, from 1965, when I became an officer,
13 until I was arrested by this Court.
14 In response to your question, I can say that I believe that this
15 Court holds records with the exact dates of my various terms of service.
16 I can say that in peacetime, I served in Macedonia, in Skopje, in
17 Kumanovo as battalion commander; as -- in Ohrid as regiment commander; in
18 Stip as the commander of the 39th Infantry Brigade; and on two occasions
19 I served at the command of the 3rd Army, that's to say the
20 3rd Military District in the operations department. There are records to
21 that effect and I can't recall reliably the dates.
22 In response to your question, with all due respect, I would like
23 to say the following: I cannot and do not wish to testify here because
24 of my health. And I would like to state, upon the advice of my Defence
25 counsel, that I reserve my right not to testify, and I reject -- or I
1 refuse to testify for the reasons that my health may be impaired and as a
2 result of my rights.
3 Mr. President, since Mr. Kwon refused to allow me to read this, I
4 wish to say that I wrote my statement on seven pages. I think it would
5 be interesting. I don't know if the Court will accept this or not, but I
6 would like the opportunity to read this out aloud for the benefit of the
7 audience, the general public, and you, and for the sake of the people.
8 I'm not defending myself. You're not defending yourself. We continue to
9 defend our people.
10 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Mladic, I'm cutting you off. You are supposed
11 to answer the question posed by Mr. Karadzic.
12 Mr. Karadzic, please proceed with your next question.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. General, sir, did you ever inform me either orally or in writing
16 that the prisoners from Srebrenica would be, were being, or had been
18 A. Mr. President, Radovan, I cannot and do not wish to testify for
19 the reasons of my health. And upon the advice of my Defence counsel, I
20 wish to state that I reserve my right not to testify and I refuse to
21 testify because it may impair my health and because of my rights as an
22 accused in my case. And I have touched upon the events that you are
23 asking me about in this statement that I have written. However,
24 Judge Kwon will not allow me to read it.
25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Mladic, I'm cutting you off here again.
1 Mr. Lukic, I take it Mr. Mladic is invoking his right pursuant to
2 Rule 90(E).
3 MR. LUKIC: Yes, Your Honour, you are right.
4 JUDGE KWON: I will consult my colleagues.
5 MR. LUKIC: To maybe cut things short - I'm sorry - he will do
6 this after every single question.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE KWON: Exercising its discretion, the Chamber has decided
9 not to compel the witness to answer this question, despite the protection
10 afforded by Rule 90(E), in light of his right against self-incrimination
11 as an accused whose trial is pending before the Tribunal.
12 I ask the accused to proceed with his next question.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. General, sir, the two of us, did we ever come to an agreement or
16 have agreement or understanding that the citizens of Sarajevo would be
17 subjected to terror by shelling and sniping -- or sniping?
18 A. Mr. President, I cannot and will not testify for the reasons of
19 my health. Upon the advice of my Defence counsel, I wish to state that I
20 reserve my right not to testify and that I refuse to testify because it
21 may impair my health and prejudice my rights as an accused in my own
22 case. Thank you.
23 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Mladic, do you intend to refuse to answer every
24 questions that are supposed to be put by Mr. Karadzic?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I will give the same answer
1 to every question.
2 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, do you wish to put each and every
3 question you suggested?
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Excellencies. There's three
5 more questions.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE KWON: For the same reason, the Chamber will not compel the
8 witness to answer this question.
9 Mr. Karadzic, please proceed with your next question.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. General, sir, what were the reasons for the shelling or sniping
13 by our army against Sarajevo?
14 A. Mr. President, I cannot and do not wish to testify for the
15 reasons of my health. Upon the advice of Defence counsel, I wish to
16 state that I reserve my right not to testify and refuse to testify
17 because it may impair my health and prejudice my rights as an accused in
18 my own case.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE KWON: For the same reason, the Chamber will not compel the
21 witness to answer the question.
22 Yes, proceed, Mr. Karadzic.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Excellencies.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. The fifth question, in that case, is moot so there's only one
1 more question left.
2 General, sir, amongst the two of us, or the leadership in
3 general, was there an agreement or an understanding to expel the Muslims
4 and Croats residing in the Serb-controlled areas?
5 A. Mr. President, I cannot and do not wish to testify for the
6 reasons of my health. Upon the advice of my Defence counsel, I wish to
7 state that I reserve my right not to testify and that I refuse to testify
8 because it may impair my health and prejudice my rights as an accused in
9 my own case.
10 If allowed, I may read out what I wrote down here. It may prove
11 interesting. And I suggest that I read this out. It's only seven pages.
12 It's not much. And I kindly request the Court to accommodate my request.
13 JUDGE KWON: No, Mr. Mladic.
14 Mr. Karadzic, do you have further questions?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, Excellencies. I only wish to
18 say that I don't know the contents of this statement, and despite all the
19 risks, I wanted Mr. Mladic to be allowed to read this out. Of course, it
20 is up to the Chamber to rule on this matter.
21 At this point I have no further questions.
22 Yes, Mr. Robinson.
23 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. For the record, we would ask
24 that the statement be received and marked for identification so that
25 there can be some record of what General Mladic wished to say in the
1 event that the issue of the Chamber's failure to compel him is raised at
2 a later date.
3 JUDGE KWON: I don't see a basis upon which the Chamber should
4 receive his statement.
5 Speaking for myself, I have no difficulty with the Defence
6 receiving his statement on their own and consider what to do with it
7 later on. But I'm not minded to receive on the part of the Chamber.
8 Mr. Tieger, do you have any cross-examination?
9 MR. TIEGER: No, Mr. President.
10 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Then that concludes your evidence,
11 Mr. Mladic. Thank you for coming to the courtroom. You may be excused.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you for preventing me from
13 stating what I wanted to say. And you have confirmed my thesis that
14 The Hague Tribunal is not a court of a law but a Satanic court.
15 JUDGE KWON: I cut you off, Mr. Mladic.
16 My thanks also go to Mr. Lukic. And I take this opportunity to
17 express the Chamber's thanks to the transportation team from the Dutch
18 police for their hard work and for their dedicated co-operation.
19 [The witness withdrew]
20 JUDGE KWON: We'll rise before we proceed with the next witness.
21 But I have a couple of matters to deal with before that.
22 Mr. Lukic, you may be excused as well. Thank you again.
23 MR. LUKIC: Thank you, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE KWON: First, the Chamber notes it remains seized of the
25 accused's motion for the transfer, temporary transfer of detained
1 witnesses Dusan Jankovic and Mitar Rasevic in which the accused submits
2 that he had sought to obtain verification from the Bosnian government
3 that the requirements of Rule 90 bis (B) are met with respect to both
4 Jankovic and Rasevic but had not received the response from -- from the
6 On 12th of December last year, the Chamber issued an invitation
7 to the government of BiH to co-operate directly with the accused by
8 providing the relevant information.
9 On the 7th of January, 2014, on the basis of correspondence
10 received in the interim, the accused wrote to the government of BiH
11 requesting further information regarding Jankovic. Since that date, no
12 further information has been filed on the record.
13 So -- so, Mr. Robinson, could you please advise the Chamber of
14 the current status of this motion in relation to Mr. Jankovic as well as
15 Mr. Rasevic.
16 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, thank you, Mr. President.
17 With respect to Mr. Rasevic, he is no longer in the custody of
18 the authorities of Bosnia and Herzegovina and he will come voluntarily,
19 so we withdraw our request for a transfer order with him.
20 With respect to Mr. Jankovic, we asked the Court to issue an
21 order to transfer him on the dates that we've requested even though we
22 have not had a definitive response from the government. When we wrote to
23 them on the 7th of January, we received no response but it's clear from
24 the public records in Mr. Jankovic's case that he has served -- has been
25 sentenced to 21 years in prison. The sentence is final. And so,
1 therefore, there are no court proceedings scheduled in his case, nor
2 would his testimony in this trial here in 2014 delay his release from
3 that 21-year sentence. We can't do anything more to get the Bosnian
4 government to provide the information. As you know, they normally don't
5 answer us directly but usually require invitations from the Chamber and
6 we -- after they corresponded with us to verify the date of birth of the
7 individual back in the 7th of January, we've heard nothing from them.
8 And we don't believe that a transfer would be timely unless the Chamber
9 issues an order at this time for the transfer. If they have any
10 information, they can object to that order. They've already been served
11 with the original motion, so they're well aware of our request and have
12 never filed any objection so far.
13 JUDGE KWON: However, the Chamber notes that Rule, in particular
14 Rule 90 bis (B), requires prior verification that the condition set
15 therein have been, indeed, met. So can I hear from you, Mr. Tieger,
16 whether the -- as Mr. Robinson argues in his submission, that this
17 absence of objection by the government of BiH would be sufficient for the
18 purpose of Rule 90 bis (B).
19 MR. TIEGER: Mr. President, it would not seem so on its face as
20 the Court has impliedly noted. However, I'm prepared to meet with
21 Mr. Robinson and evaluate the entire backdrop to the exchange to see if,
22 under these particular circumstances, some implicit acknowledgment can be
23 gleaned from the information provided.
24 But beyond that, I think the Court's point seems to be well taken
25 on the face of the Rule.
1 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber will consider this issue. But in the
2 meantime, I would like you to continue to get the verification from the
4 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
5 JUDGE KWON: We'll rise for 20 minutes and resume at ten past
7 --- Recess taken at 10.52 a.m.
8 [The witness entered court]
9 --- On resuming at 11 .16 a.m.
10 JUDGE KWON: Would the witness make the solemn declaration.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
12 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
13 WITNESS: DRASKO VUJIC
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Vujic. Please be seated and make
16 yourself comfortable.
17 Before you commence your evidence, Mr. Vujic, I must draw your
18 attention to a certain rule that we have here at the international
19 Tribunal; that is, Rule 90(E). Under this rule, you may object to
20 answering any question from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecutor, or even from
21 the Judges if you believe that your answer might incriminate you in a
22 criminal offence.
23 In this context, "incriminate" means saying something that may
24 amount to an admission of guilt for a criminal offence or saying
25 something that might provide evidence that you might have committed a
1 criminal offence. However, should you think that an answer might
2 incriminate you and as a consequence you refuse to answer the question, I
3 must let you know that the Tribunal has the power to compel you to answer
4 the question. But, in this situation, the Tribunal would ensure that
5 your testimony compelled under such circumstances would not be used in
6 any case that might be laid against you for any offence save and except
7 the offence of giving false testimony.
8 Do you understand that, Mr. Vujic?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
11 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.
12 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
13 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Vujic.
14 A. Good morning, Mr. President.
15 Q. Let me just ask you to leave a short pause between questions and
16 answers and to speak slowly so that everything can be recorded properly.
17 Have you given a statement to my Defence team?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we show in e-court 1D49061.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. On the left-hand side of the screen, can you see the Serbian
23 version of that statement?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Thank you. Have you read and signed this statement?
1 A. Yes.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see the last page.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Is this your signature?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Thank you. Did this statement faithfully reflect everything
7 you've said to my Defence team?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. If I were to put to you the same questions today,
10 would your answers be essentially the same as in the statement?
11 A. Yes, they would.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tender this statement under
14 Rule 92 ter.
15 JUDGE KWON: Any objections, Mr. Zec?
16 MR. ZEC: Good morning. No objection.
17 JUDGE KWON: We'll receive it.
18 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D4242, Your Honours.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Then I will read in English a short
21 summary of Mr. Vujic's statement and then I will have a few questions for
22 him concerning one document and tender that document as well.
23 [In English] Drasko Vujic was mobilised in late 1991 and sent as
24 a member of the 5th Battalion of the 343 JNA Brigade to Slavonia, where
25 he stayed for 45 days. After that, he went back to Prijedor, and when
1 the crisis in Prijedor broke out, he started forming a unit from the
2 Urije area (Prijedor 2) local community.
3 In 1995, he became a member of the SDS and then he became
4 vice-president of the Municipal Board and an assemblyman in the municipal
5 assembly for one term.
6 The unit formed by Mr. Vujic had about 900 to 1200 men, mostly
7 people over the age of 50, many of whom were non-Serbs who joined the
8 unit voluntarily. The unit was engaged in the zone of a small and big
9 road underpass where Prijedor-Centar is separated from Prijedor 2, with
10 the task of patrolling to prevent the movement of unknown people, tension
11 or any incidents.
12 In the morning of 30th of May, 1992, Muslim armed units attacked
13 Mr. Vujic's soldiers from a park located between the two underpasses and
14 from a nearby firm. One of the soldiers was killed in the attack, while
15 the others reacted to the surprise and put up resistance. During the
16 clash, the Muslims fired at an ambulance car that was on his -- its --
17 his way to town and seriously wounded the driver. After one hour of
18 fighting, the Muslim units were pushed back and withdrew towards the
19 River Sana. This was the last major attack by the Muslim units in the
20 recruitment zone of Prijedor 2.
21 During the fighting, one enemy soldier was captured. He wore a
22 camouflage uniform with a green headband, a Cherokee hair-style, and the
23 Islamic markings of the moon, star and lily. After revealing that
24 Prijedor was attacked by several armed groups from different directions,
25 the prisoner was escorted to the garrison and handed over to the security
1 organs. After this episode, the battalion did not take part in combat
2 operations until September 1992, when most of the battalion was sent to
3 the Gradacac front line, while a small part received the task of mopping
4 out Mount Kurevo, where Muslim units were based. One of the soldiers who
5 took part in the fighting at Kurevo was wounded while one other died.
6 Mr. Vujic was informed by courier about the rebellion of the
7 prisoners at Keraterm but his unit did not take part in the incidents.
8 During the summer of 1992, the battalion's patrols were present in the
9 vicinity of the mosque in Puharska, when the mosque was destroyed in an
10 explosion. Mr. Vujic personally helped the people who had been injured,
11 among whom there was a Muslim man who was put in Mr. Vujic's car and
12 taken to the hospital, where he received medical treatment. The soldiers
13 who were on patrol were severely shocked and some suffered hearing
14 damage. Mr. Vujic did everything he could to reassure the residents of
15 Puharska and to prevent any further attempts at disturbing them.
16 In the summer of 1992, units were sent to search Puharska on the
17 basis of information that many Muslims who were seeking refuge there were
18 suspected of having taken part in the clashes in Kozarac and Hambarine.
19 The Muslim population supported the operation in security, as they were
20 aware that the presence of extremists was a potential threat for them.
21 About 30 men were singled out and transported to Omarska. The other
22 residents remained in their own homes.
23 In 1992, various Serbian paramilitary units roamed around
24 Prijedor municipality, causing great problems to both the Muslim and the
25 Serbian population. Mr. Vujic personally arrested a number of these
1 Suva Rebra unit, one of the paramilitary formations active in the
2 Prijedor area. The paramilitary soldier was disarmed, tied up, and later
3 escorted to the prison in Gradiska.
4 There were several cases when Mr. Vujic co-operated with the
5 Muslim population, helped them, and protected them. The official
6 authorities in Prijedor did not forcibly deport the Muslim population,
7 nor did they have the intention of destroying the Muslim population as a
8 group, wholly, or partially.
9 And now I would have one question for Mr. Vujic within the chief
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Vujic, in paragraph 1 of your statement, you say that in your
13 battalion, you had between 900 and 1200 men, mostly people over 50. In
14 our language, we would call them the third category of draftees; correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You also say that you had a lot of people of other ethnicities,
17 Muslim, Croats, Roma, and Ukrainians; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D49062 is the document I would now
20 like to show the witness. Sorry, I meant 061 -- no, no. 062 is okay.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. Vujic, can you tell us what this list is and who made it?
23 A. I made this list, preparing for giving evidence today, from the
24 records that I have in my possession about the engagement of soldiers. I
25 singled out the names of people who were non-Serbs and who were members
1 of my unit.
2 Q. Could you read out aloud the first two lines? I mean the title.
3 A. List of people of non-Serb ethnicity who are members of the
4 3rd Motorised Battalion.
5 Q. Thank you. Here on page 1 we see 41 names. Were all these
6 people non-Serbs, mainly Muslims, Croats, and Ukrainians; correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page, please.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. On this page, we see numbers from 42 to 86. Are they also all
11 Croats, Muslims, Ukrainians, Protestants? Which ethnicities and
12 religions are represented here?
13 A. Yes. This is the second page of the list. There are Muslims,
14 Croats, Roma, and Ukrainians mostly.
15 Q. We have a column indicating year of birth. And what is the last
17 A. That's the length of service in the unit for each individual.
18 Q. So the last date is in 1996 when the unit ceased to exist.
19 A. Some were members of the unit from the first day to the last;
20 some left the unit due to various circumstances; some were wounded; some
21 were killed, unfortunately; and others were mobilised for shorter terms
22 and served for a certain period in the unit.
23 Q. Where were these people from and where did their families hail
25 A. They lived in areas of replenishment of this unit, which means
1 Cirkin Polje, Urije, Puharska, Orlovaca, Orlovci and Garevci, although
2 some people were from other local communities in the Prijedor
4 Q. Their families and civilians, where did they live and how were
5 they treated by the authorities of Prijedor municipality?
6 A. Their families lived in their homes. They continued to work,
7 those who had jobs. Those who were farmers continued to be farmers.
8 They were not intimidated or mistreated in any way.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tendered this document.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, this document has one
12 more page. I believe the final number was 133.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Pages 3 and 4.
15 A. Yes, this is the end of the list.
16 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Zec, do you have any objections?
17 MR. ZEC: No, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE KWON: We'll mark this for identification.
19 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI D4243, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE KWON: And you have no further questions?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, I have no further questions in
22 direct examination, Your Honours.
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
24 Mr. Vujic, as you have noted, your evidence in-chief in this case
25 has been admitted, in its most part in writing; that is, through your
1 written statement in lieu of your oral testimony.
2 Now you will be cross-examined by the representative of the
3 Office of the Prosecutor.
4 Yes, Mr. Zec.
5 MR. ZEC: Thank you, Mr. President.
6 Cross-examination by Mr. Zec:
7 Q. Good morning, Mr. Vujic.
8 You told us in your statement that you were member of the
9 343rd Prijedor Motorised Brigade. You were in Croatia in 1991. You
10 returned to Prijedor and work on military matters.
11 While working on the military matters, Mr. Vujic, you attended
12 meetings with SDS officials; right?
13 A. Officially I did not attend a single meeting of the SDS at that
15 Q. This Chamber has received evidence regarding -- regarding a
16 document called Variant A and B. Simo Miskovic testified here that
17 Variant B was implemented in Prijedor; transcript page 45374. The
18 A-and-B document envisaged two stages of preparation. The first stage
19 was related to introducing around-the-clock duties, Crisis Staffs,
20 Serbian Assemblies, methods related to Territorial Defence, and the like.
21 Do you remember, Mr. Vujic, attending a meeting during which
22 these issues were discussed?
23 A. No, I wasn't there.
24 MR. ZEC: Can we have 65 ter 10937B. This is a record of a
25 meeting with Prijedor regional representatives regarding military
1 matters. It is undated but we know from the SDS Municipal Board book of
2 minutes from where this was taken that it is from December 1991. 65
3 ter -- yes.
4 Q. You will have it now in front of you, sir -- on the screen in
5 front of you.
6 It starts by noting that 18 members were present.
7 "Simo Miskovic, president of the Prijedor SDS Municipal Board,
8 opened the meeting with a presentation of the instruction which had come
9 from the Assembly of the Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina."
10 It notes that the establishment of a Crisis Staff and the defence
11 secretariat were the purpose of this meeting.
12 There are ten items listed, some of which I already mentioned.
13 Below number ten it says:
14 "The above represents the first stage of preparations ..."
15 Do you remember attending this meeting, Mr. Vujic?
16 A. No.
17 MR. ZEC: Can we turn to second-last page in English and last
18 page in B/C/S.
19 Q. If you look towards the bottom of the page, Mr. Vujic, we see
20 name Drasko Vujic saying that this was too big job to be accomplished
21 with such a tight schedule.
22 So you were present at this meeting; right?
23 A. I don't remember attending this meeting.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]
25 JUDGE KWON: We didn't hear you, Mr. Karadzic.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.
2 JUDGE KWON: And what is your objection about?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is not a meeting of the SDS,
4 and this does not concern papers A and B. This is about the
5 recommendation of the -- the Assembly of the Serbian People of
6 10 December. So it's not a SDS meeting.
7 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Zec went through from the first page and then
8 witness was able to read the document, so I don't see any problem with
10 So whether he remember having attended this meeting, and he
11 answered in the negative.
12 Shall we continue?
13 MR. ZEC: Mr. President, I would tender this document.
14 MR. ROBINSON: There's no foundation for it through this witness,
15 Mr. President.
16 JUDGE KWON: I don't understand. No foundation?
17 MR. ROBINSON: The witness isn't able to speak to anything about
18 what happened at this meeting. He isn't able to recognise it as an
19 accurate record or reliable account of what took place.
20 JUDGE KWON: I -- I don't think Defence is challenging the
21 authenticity of this document, are you?
22 MR. ROBINSON: Well, in the sense that we don't know where it
23 came from. We have no information about the authenticity. But,
24 nevertheless, it may be authentic and it may be admissible through
25 another witness but not through this witness.
1 JUDGE KWON: Witness is referred to in this document as having
2 made an intervention.
3 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, that's correct Mr. President. But I don't
4 believe that makes it admissible, simply because a witness is referred to
5 in a document.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
7 Do you like to add anything Mr. Zec?
8 MR. ZEC: Mr. President, as you already noted, the document is
9 authentic. It's relevant. It's only question whether the witness
10 remember being there. But there's -- otherwise, there is no -- any
11 obstacle of you admitting it.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE KWON: Do you intend to put further questions with respect
14 to this document to the witness?
15 MR. ZEC: No, Mr. President. This simply was impeachment point,
16 about the witness being in the area of [indiscernible] on military
17 matters, as he confirms in his statement. But the only point is that he
18 was at this meeting with SDS, which he denied.
19 JUDGE KWON: I don't think your assistance, Mr. Tieger, just be
21 Let me take a look.
22 How do we know this is a SDS meeting, Mr. Zec?
23 MR. ZEC: Mr. Simo Miskovic presided the meeting, and there is a
24 reference in the document that he is the president of the Main Board. So
25 it was SDS officials, so that's -- and another point, it comes from the
1 book of the SDS Main Board book of minutes. This is only excerpt. So in
2 that --
3 JUDGE KWON: Title of this document reads: Meeting of the
4 representatives of Prijedor municipality.
5 MR. ZEC: And I refer to this book of minutes of the SDS
6 Main Board with -- which reflects meetings of the SDS. Now whether --
7 what -- they referring to what officials, that's -- I agree not
8 absolutely clear.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE KWON: With respect to his attendance in a meeting with
11 some SDS members, I -- the Chamber is of the view we have a basis to
12 admit it.
13 We'll receive it.
14 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6610, Your Honours.
15 MR. ZEC:
16 Q. In paragraph 6 of your statement, you talk about your proposal to
17 the Muslim TO to hand over their weapons before the clashes and searches,
18 and you say some complied.
19 Mr. Vujic, this Chamber has received evidence that all the
20 weapons and ammunition belonging to the Territorial Defence units had to
21 be stored in the JNA depots even before the period you talk about. It's
23 And, in fact, Mr. Vujic, the weapons that belonged to the TO
24 units in Prijedor were placed under the command of the 343rd Brigade;
1 A. No, that's not right.
2 MR. ZEC: Can we have 65 ter 05029.
3 Q. Can you confirm that 343rd Brigade was renamed to 43rd Brigade
4 after the VRS 1st Krajina Corps was established?
5 A. The exact date of reformulating the name of the brigade is
6 something I'm not aware of. I know that on the 21st of May there was
7 general mobilisation. After that, the brigade was renamed. From the
8 343rd Brigade Motorised Brigade, it was renamed the 43rd Brigade.
9 Would you allow me to clarify something in relation to that first
10 question. I expected you to ask me why that was not so.
11 Q. Mr. Vujic, I will -- we will go through.
12 If you now look on the screen, you will see article from
13 "Kozarski Vjesnik." In the second paragraph in English and second page
14 in the B/C/S, first column, Radmilo Zeljaja says:
15 "Our command with the approval of the corps managed to get
16 together both the weapons and technical equipment from the
17 Territorial Defence units of the municipalities: Prijedor, Sanski Most,
18 Novi Grad, Kozarska Dubica, as well as Cazinska Krajina region and place
19 them under our control in our depots."
20 So, Mr. Vujic, 343rd Brigade took control of the TO weapons;
22 A. At the time that we were talking about a moment ago, that is to
23 say, the time before the attack on Prijedor, and before Puharska, weapons
24 had not been handed over, all weapons, rather, had not been handed over
25 by the reserve Territorial Defence and the reserve police. And it was
1 not placed under the control of the Army of Republika Srpska.
2 MR. ZEC: I tender this document, Mr. President.
3 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, we -- he has read out the portion
4 that contradicts the witness's testimony and we think that that would be
6 JUDGE KWON: Following our practice, I tend to agree with
7 Mr. Robinson. But do you like to add anything?
8 MR. ZEC: I'll move on. Thank you.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
10 MR. ZEC:
11 Q. In paragraph 7, in paragraph 7 of your statement, you say that
12 your battalion did not take part in combat operations until
13 September 1992 when you went to Gradacac except for mopping up at Kurevo
14 mountain. Are you saying, Mr. Vujic, that the unit -- that until
15 September the battalion did not participate in combat activities at front
16 lines involving -- involving two unarmed forces?
17 A. Yes. But took part in the fighting at Mount Kurevo.
18 Q. And the battalion, in fact, was involved in the take-over of the
19 power in Prijedor; right?
20 A. The battalion did not have any function in relation to the
21 take-over of power in Prijedor.
22 MR. ZEC: Can we have 65 ter 25839.
23 Q. This is a article from a bulletin of the 43rd Brigade. It says
24 in the middle of the page:
25 "Commander of this battalion, Drasko Vujic, a man who was among
1 the first who felt the fascist vibration of the centuries' old enemies
2 said: The people of Podkozarje know very well how it feels to suffer the
3 war atrocities and the fascist evil deeds. That is why we had to avoid
4 the fate of our grandfathers. We had to be ready for when they come.
5 The old mistakes had to be avoided."
6 When you say, Mr. Vujic, "we had to be ready," you were referring
7 to the preparations in late 1991 that we talked about; right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You also say:
10 "That period of activity of a battalion that was still not
11 official on the paper only was characterised by the participation in the
12 taking over of the government from the Muslims."
13 Mr. Vujic, you acknowledged here your participation in the
14 take-over of the power in Prijedor which took place in late April 1992;
16 A. On that day, when power was taken over, the battalion did not
17 move its units in any way. Except since the preparations for the
18 take-over of government were rather secret, it was only the night before
19 that that I found out there would be a take-over. And my superior
20 command issued me an order - orally, truth to tell - that the units
21 should be prepared at its positions and no order was issued to move the
22 units from these positions. That is why I say that the units had already
23 been organised in part and ready to prevent any kind of surprise that
24 would not work in favour of the citizens of Prijedor.
25 Q. But you were clear here in -- in this article. You said
1 "participation in the taking over of the government."
2 You participated. Didn't you?
3 A. I'm going to repeat it once again for you.
4 The battalion did not have any order and there was no move on the
5 part of units at any level. That is to say, it did not take part in the
6 take-over of power. For me take-over of power -- or, rather,
7 participation in take-over of power means, to my mind, to go directly and
8 carry out certain tasks in the territory of the municipality of Prijedor
9 in the territory of the town itself. And in this case, that did not
11 Q. And you go on and say:
12 "The defence" --
13 JUDGE KWON: First of all, could you confirm with the witness
14 whether that's what witness said in the interview?
15 MR. ZEC: Mr. President, I also thought that's clear in the
16 interview, but he is explaining in a bit different way so I thought I
17 should [Overlapping speakers] ...
18 JUDGE KWON: Where does that inverted comma end?
19 MR. ZEC: As I understand in the article, it says -- from the
20 point when it says, "The command of the brigade said," and there's a
21 column, I -- it's my opinion that's all he's -- what he was saying to the
23 JUDGE KWON: Do you confirm having said so, Mr. Vujic?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot remember this statement of
25 mine given to the journalist as a whole. As a matter of fact, I don't
1 even remember giving any kind of statement to a journalist at the time.
2 However, this is certainly beautification of the situation on the part of
3 the journalist. That's for sure. And an attempt is being made to leave
4 the impression that there was more power than there actually was, in
5 terms of take-over. I told you a moment ago what the status of my unit
6 was. What the tasks were, and how we carried them out, that is correct.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue, Mr. Zec.
8 MR. ZEC:
9 Q. You go on and say:
10 "The defence of Prijedor from the Muslim fundamentalists" --
11 JUDGE KWON: Where do we see it?
12 MR. ZEC: It's on the same portion. It should be middle of the
14 Q. "The defence of Prijedor from the Muslim fundamentalists, the
15 participation in the struggle for the liberation of Kozarac."
16 JUDGE KWON: Do you see that passage?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not see that. I have the page
18 in front of me, but I cannot find my way.
19 MR. ZEC: In B/C/S, it's on -- in the column to the left towards
20 the bottom. Should be the last paragraph in the B/C/S.
21 JUDGE KWON: So now we move to the next page
22 in [overlapping speakers]
23 MR. ZEC: [Overlapping speakers] ... in the English, correct. My
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
1 MR. ZEC: "The participation in the struggle for the liberation
2 of Kozarac."
4 "Punishment of the Hambarine residents who were the first to
5 spill the blood of the Serb young men."
6 Mr. Vujic, the spilling blood reference relates to the incident
7 of 22nd May, 1992, at the check-point in Hambarine when two Serb soldiers
8 got killed and several wounded; right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And "punishment of the Hambarine residents" relates to the Serb
11 attack at Hambarine during which the entire area was razed to the ground
12 with many killed and expelled non-Serbs; right?
13 A. What is meant here is the punishment of perpetrators of crimes
14 that were committed on that day in Hambarine.
15 MR. ZEC: I tender this document -- this article, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive it.
17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6611, Your Honours.
18 MR. ZEC:
19 Q. These military operations in Prijedor, Mr. Vujic, took the form
20 of targeting Muslims and Croats by attacking and destroying their towns
21 and places of residence and detaining men; right?
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I? Just one objection.
23 In respect of the previous document, and also in the question of
24 Mr. Zec, it is being suggested that it was the inhabitants of Hambarine
25 that were punished, and that is not what the original says. It says --
1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Vujic answered that point, I think.
2 Let's continue.
3 MR. ZEC:
4 Q. Mr. Vujic, do I have to repeat my last question or you can -- you
5 can answer?
6 A. Please repeat it.
7 Q. The military operations in Prijedor took the form of targeting
8 Muslims and Croats by attacking and destroying the towns and places of
9 residence and detaining many; correct?
10 A. The objective of the military operation was not to destroy the
11 civilian population or to destroy facilities, property. Rather, to
12 respond through combat to the participation of those who opened fire and
13 killed Serb soldiers.
14 Q. This Chamber has received evidence regarding the mopping-up
15 operations in Prijedor that the resistance of Croat and Muslim formations
16 was weak followed by mass surrender; that conscripts of Muslim
17 nationality asked to be released from the units for the reasons of
18 massive destruction of their towns; and that the ARK SDS leaders publicly
19 advocated moving and expelling Muslims and Croats. P3662, P3911.
20 These reasons, Mr. Vujic, caused non-Serbs to fear for their
21 lives and leave; right?
22 A. That is not right. Because the Muslims and Croats had left at
23 their own initiative, considerably earlier. They left all units. Very
24 few of them stayed on. So I have a few examples from that time as to how
25 those few who had stayed on reacted, and those who responded to the
1 call-up to obstruct the JNA and not respond to mobilisation were the main
2 perpetrators of these unfortunate events.
3 Q. And, at the same time, Serb officials praised members of the
4 43rd Brigade for their achievements in Prijedor; that's correct?
5 A. I don't know in which way they praised them.
6 Q. Well, let's have a look.
7 MR. ZEC: 65 ter 10951.
8 Q. And, Mr. Vujic, this Chamber also received evidence regarding the
9 commendation of the units engaged in Prijedor, including, Hambarine and
10 Kozarac, by the command of the 1st Krajina Corps saying that they set an
11 example how one should act while defending Serb republic; P3656. Now if
12 you look at the screen in front of you there is an article from
13 "Kozarski Vjesnik" about the celebration of -- or the Vidovda in Prijedor
14 barracks. Among present were members of the 43rd Brigade and 5th Kozara
15 Brigade, their commanders and other officials.
16 At page 2 in English and to the right side in B/C/S, there are
17 text of telegrams sent from Ratko Mladic and Momir Talic. At page 3 in
18 English, and in the box in the middle of the B/C/S page, it says:
19 "The soldiers and superiors of the 43rd Prijedor
20 Motorised Brigade were very happy to hear the news that the president of
21 the state and Supreme Commander, Dr. Radovan Karadzic, has awarded the
22 brigade with the Nemanjic medal for heroic acts in the armed struggle and
23 setting a positive example for acts achieved so far."
24 President also awarded Colonel Arsic.
25 Mr. Vujic, so the fact is that the units involved in Prijedor
1 operations were praised by the highest military and political leadership
2 of Republika Srpska; right?
3 A. This document shows that the unit was commended and that its
4 commander was promoted. However, the commendation does not refer to
5 fighting where there was no resistance. This was fighting where there
6 was strong resistance. And how. Serb soldiers were being killed. There
7 were casualties on both side. And unfortunately, this was a merciless
8 war. It is for that reason that the unit managed to fulfil its task and,
9 of course, since this is Saint Vitus's Day, it is the time when certain
10 analyses are carried out and commendations are provided to those who
11 contributed to the accomplishment of the mission.
12 MR. ZEC: I tender this article.
13 MR. ROBINSON: No objection, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we will receive it.
15 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6612, Your Honours.
16 MR. ZEC:
17 Q. You talk -- you talk in your statement about the mosque in
18 Donja Puharska and the way it was destroyed. You say that the explosion
19 was strong which you heard from your home about 1 kilometre away.
20 Mr. Vujic, the mosque was completely destroyed in this explosion;
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In order to destroy a building this way, one would need a lot of
24 explosive and preparation; right?
25 A. I assume so.
1 Q. Despite all the preparation one would need to take, you say that
2 the patrolling units who were there patrolling round the mosque did not
3 see anything at any point of time; right?
4 A. That's right.
5 Q. This Chamber has received evidence that dozens of other religious
6 facilities in Prijedor were destroyed the way this mosque was destroyed.
7 And you know this was happening in Prijedor with respect to other
8 non-Serb religious facilities; right?
9 A. I heard of some later, and I heard of some immediately after the
10 events involved.
11 Q. You say in paragraph 11 that after the mosque in Donja Puharska
12 was blown up, you assured the citizens that you would prevent further
13 disturbing after there was no major incidents.
14 In fact, Mr. Vujic, several days after the mosque was blown up,
15 Djordje Dosen came to Puharska and took Fadil Dizdarevic away. His body
16 was subsequently found in the Sana river; right?
17 A. I'm not aware of that.
18 MR. ZEC: Can we have 65 ter 25837. This is -- this is -- will
19 be a file containing a statement of Rasim Dzafic and several -- several
20 photographs. We need e-court page 4 in both languages.
21 Q. "Dzafic" --
22 THE ACCUSED: Could we see the first page, please.
23 MR. ZEC:
24 Q. "Dzafic said" --
25 THE ACCUSED: To whom it was given [Overlapping speakers] ...
1 MR. ZEC:
2 Q. "Several days" --
3 MR. ZEC: Mr. President, I think --
4 JUDGE KWON: Can you not see it on your own with your e-court?
5 THE ACCUSED: No. No, not me.
6 JUDGE KWON: Could Registrar approach the bench.
7 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
8 JUDGE KWON: I'm told that you should be able to see it on your
9 own, with your e-court.
10 THE ACCUSED: Yes, Excellency, if I give up the transcript. But
11 what is now shown, I can't.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Yes, you can see it while listening to the --
13 to the witnesses and trial attorneys. You can go into your e-court
14 briefly, if necessary. I think the -- that can be done without --
15 without prejudicing your following the proceedings.
16 Yes, we'll continue.
17 MR. ZEC:
18 Q. Dzafic said:
19 "Several days later, our neighbour Fadil Dizdarevic, came to
20 repair the hodza's house."
21 And then he continues:
22 "The criminal, Djordje Dosen, also known as Djole, found him
23 there. He said he took him to the car and drove off."
24 And then he said:
25 "A day or two later, Fadil's body was found in the Sana river.
1 His chest was riddled with bullets."
2 So, Mr. Vujic, the fact is that non-Serbs were continuing to be
3 targeted after the mosque was blown up; right?
4 A. You skipped something here that has to do with the destruction of
5 the mosque and my efforts after that. But I know that a certain
6 Djordje Dosen, nicknamed Djole, was a person who created problems both
7 for the Serb and the Muslim population. He was not a member of my unit,
8 and this is the first I hear of this, as of many other cases, many other
9 things that were done by Djole, and are mentioned during this trial, not
10 only today but generally speaking, and that's how I found out what Djole
11 was doing and where he was.
12 Q. And we will come back to Djole in a moment. But let's see next
13 page in English.
14 In the -- in the last paragraph, Dzafic says that:
15 "In the course of the same evening, the Prijedor Catholic church
16 was destroyed."
17 Mr. Vujic, did you hear this second explosion when the Catholic
18 church was blown up, after the mosque was blown up?
19 A. Yes, I heard it. It came about several minutes after the first
21 MR. ZEC: Let's see next page in both languages.
22 Q. This is the mosque in Donja Puharska before it was blown up;
24 A. As far as I remember, yes.
25 MR. ZEC: Can we have next page in both languages.
1 Q. And this is after it was blown up; right?
2 A. Possibly.
3 MR. ZEC: Can we now turn the page after the next one in both
5 Q. Do you recognise this as remains of the mosque in Donja Puharska?
6 A. I cannot claim with certainty that this is exactly what I saw
7 that day. What is possible is that this is what the mosque looked like,
8 that most of it was destroyed.
9 MR. ZEC: Can we see photographs -- after next one again, sorry.
10 Q. This is public -- public utility company from Prijedor called
11 4 July clearing the remains of the mosque. Do you know when this was?
12 1992 perhaps?
13 A. I don't know when this happened.
14 MR. ZEC: Can we see next photographs in the both -- both
16 Q. So this is the house of Rasim Dzafic after the explosion; right?
17 A. I should think so, yes.
18 MR. ZEC: Next page.
19 Q. This is the house of Zekerijah Kusuran; right?
20 A. Yes, I believe so.
21 MR. ZEC: Can we have next page.
22 Q. Do you recognise this house as described below the photograph?
23 A. I wouldn't be able to tell whose house this is on the basis of
24 the photograph. I can read in the caption that is Muhamed Mirsirlic's
25 house. It stood exactly across from the mosque and I know that it was
1 damaged. And, in fact, the way I see this photograph, it does look like
2 the house that was in the previous photograph.
3 MR. ZEC: Mr. President, I tender photographs only.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we hear about the provenance of
5 the photograph, when it was made and by whom? It says September 1992,
6 but where does it come from? Is this part of some investigation
8 MR. ZEC: I refer Mr. Karadzic to the last page of the statement
9 in B/C/S. The witness says who took the photographs.
10 JUDGE KWON: You can tell the accused. I think it's -- it's a
11 fair question.
12 MR. ZEC: Then we -- can we have last page of the statement that
13 we looked. It should be page 4. Page 4 in -- in e-court.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, now we can see it.
15 MR. ZEC: In English, it's last page of the statement. And the
16 witness says that this was recorded by Mirvan Besic, son of Dzemal, who
17 is currently in the United States. So that's the provenance.
18 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
19 Mr. Robinson, you have no objections to -- to -- to the admission
20 of photographs only.
21 MR. ROBINSON: That's correct, Mr. President. I think given the
22 witness's comments about them that it's admissible.
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll admit them.
24 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6613, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Mr. Zec.
1 MR. ZEC: Thank you. Let's go back to Djordje Dosen, also known
2 as Djole, that we talked about.
3 Q. He was a member of the Serb forces in Prijedor; right?
4 A. Djoko Dosen was a member of the 343rd Brigade for several months
5 only in the very beginning. Later on, he was not a member of the brigade
6 anymore, and this was, in part, due to a decision that I made.
7 Since I knew Dosen from before the war, I came across him when he
8 was a member of a unit in Slavonia. He was frightened out of his wits
9 because of the war. He was in shell shock. He was completely unusable,
10 as it were. As I came to Prijedor, I learnt that Djoko Dosen had a
11 smaller unit under his command. The unit executed his orders and tasks.
12 What I didn't know was where these tasks had come from. My conclusion
13 was that he was doing everything on his own initiative, and this proved
14 to be true. Because, at one point, the brigade commander tasked me with
15 taking over the command over the mobilised soldiers on the basis of the
16 territorial principle, including the local commune of Orlovaca, where
17 Djoko came from, Orlovci and Garevci. As a result, my first contact was
18 with Djoko when he responded to my call-up. He came to the headquarters
19 and I told him there that, pursuant to the commander's orders, he was
20 resubordinated to the then-17th [as interpreted] Battalion. I also ask
21 asked him to provide me with a list of troops and inventory of the
22 weapons at his disposal as soon as possible. He refused to do so there
23 and then. He told me that he would not comply with my order.
24 My immediate response was this: For as long as I'm in command of
25 this unit, you, Djoko, will not be in it, not even as a private, let
1 alone any officer.
2 He found it an impossible situation.
3 Several days later, I went to Orlovaca. This was the place where
4 he was active, and he was a native of Orlovaca, and I mean Djoko Dosen,
5 and it was through a great deal of effort that I managed to put together
6 an official unit and appointed a commanding officer. I said that I had a
7 hard time doing it. I had to investigate a great deal of effort because
8 I was met with the resistance on the part of Djoko Dosen and his men.
9 Still, it all ended well.
10 Q. And then are you saying from that point that Djole was
11 subordinated to the units?
12 A. From that point on, Djole was no longer subordinated to the unit.
13 He wasn't even listed as a member of my unit. He didn't receive any sort
14 of tasks from me. Even if he had received tasks from me, he would not
15 have received them or carried them through.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 46, line 20. It's not much --
19 it's not of much importance. But for the sake of accuracy, it's not the
20 "17th Battalion," but the "7th Battalion."
21 JUDGE KWON: Do you agree, Mr. Vujic?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was the 7th Battalion.
23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
24 MR. ZEC: And --
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue.
1 MR. ZEC:
2 Q. And, in fact, Mr. Vujic, this Chamber has received evidence that
3 by July 1992, 1st Krajina Corps intelligence and security organ reported
4 that all the groups, these self-acting groups that you are referring to,
5 that all of them were -- they became part of the 343rd Motorised Brigade
6 and were carrying tasks in organised fashion. So, in fact, all these
7 groups, such as Djole, they were under the command of the brigade.
8 MR. ZEC: And this is, Your Honours, P25494.
9 Q. So that, in fact, was the situation; right?
10 A. This was not about the unit. This was only about Djole. Other
11 members of his unit were resubordinated at a later stage and were
12 exemplary soldiers. I only spoke about my dealings with Djoko who was
13 not under anyone's command and whatever he did was at his own initiative.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness said: And they were
17 exemplary soldiers. And this wasn't -- oh, it is now in the transcript.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I spoke about Djoko only, whereas
19 you use the plural: All those other paramilitaries. And we didn't
20 mention any others. Not yet.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Shall we take a break now?
22 MR. ZEC: Yes, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll break for 45 minutes and resume at
24 quarter past 1.00.
25 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.31 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 1.17 p.m.
2 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Zec, please continue.
4 MR. ZEC: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Q. Mr. Vujic, talking about 1995, you know that the unit under
6 Zeljko Raznjatovic, Arkan, also known as Tigers, were deployed to
7 Prijedor, Banja Luka, Sanski Most area in 1995. You know this; right?
8 A. In certain segments I was aware of Arkan's unit which was present
9 in Prijedor.
10 Q. And do you know, as this Chamber knows, that Arkan's unit
11 committed crimes in Bosnia in 1992; right?
12 A. I'm not familiar with the activities of this unit in
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina. It was only toward the end of the war in 1995 that I
14 had direct dealings with elements of that unit.
15 Q. Did you know that in 1995 that Arkan's unit committed crimes
16 against remaining non-Serbs, as this Chamber knows; P3056.
17 Did you know that, in 1995?
18 A. Which area is that in reference to?
19 Q. Krajina area: Prijedor, Sanski Most, Banja Luka.
20 A. My activity were always outside of the municipality of Prijedor.
21 I didn't have any contact with Arkan and his members, so I'm not familiar
22 with their participation or deeds.
23 Q. With respect to Prijedor, do you know that the remaining
24 non-Serbs were expelled from Prijedor, including, Dr. Ibro Beglerbegovic,
25 who you referred to in paragraph 15. Do you know -- did you know that?
1 A. No, I didn't know when Ibro Beglerbegovic left or whatever
2 happened with him. When it comes to Prijedor, save for 1992 when I knew
3 that he was in his home, and when, on one occasion, and I mentioned this
4 in my statement, I was in a position to help him.
5 Q. And it's already in your statement. But going back to Arkan's
6 unit, your battalion conducted joint operations with police and Arkan's
7 unit in 1995; correct?
8 A. That was the time when, for the first time, I had certain
9 contacts with Arkan's unit.
10 Q. So they were in your area of responsibility. You were fighting
11 with them, together; right?
12 A. This was not my area of responsibility. By happenstance, it was
13 dictated by the fighting. My unit happened to be in the defence area of
14 Ostra Luka and Sanski Most, and that was where I found some of Arkan's
16 Prior to that point, what I knew of Arkan in Prijedor was in a
17 very ugly context, involving my soldiers. Those who happened to be
18 resting at some point were arrested by Arkan's soldiers, and their heads
19 were clean-shaven. And outside of my approval, they were transferred --
20 Q. So then perhaps did you arrest Arkan's soldiers? Did you arrest
21 Arkan for not only committing crimes but also disturbing your soldiers?
22 Did you do that?
23 A. You didn't allow me to finish my sentence. And I was just about
24 to say that, at the point when I wanted to do, so I was prevented from
25 doing so. I was in a different battle-field. Why is it that you're not
1 interested in hearing me out? Why don't you let me finish? Two or three
2 sentences more won't do any harm.
3 I said that I was in a battle-field. I said that my soldiers who
4 were resting were taken against their will to a different battle-field by
5 Arkan and their heads were clean-shaven, and I was some [as interpreted]
6 kilometres away from the area, and I was not in a position to do anything
7 in relation to these actions by Arkan, and I never met up in person with
9 Q. So --
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In line 6, the witness said, "200
13 to 300 kilometres away," not "some."
14 JUDGE KWON: Do you agree?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's right.
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes, thank you.
17 Let's continue.
18 MR. ZEC:
19 Q. Since you didn't take any action against Arkan's Men, did you
20 also know, as this Chamber knows, that it was Mr. Karadzic who sent them
21 there into your area of responsibility? Did you know that? It's P3056.
22 A. I didn't know that.
23 Q. Thank you, Mr. Vujic.
24 MR. ZEC: Thank you. I have nothing further.
25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Zec.
1 Do you have any re-examination, Mr. Karadzic?
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just briefly, Excellencies.
3 Can the witness be shown P2494. It was already cited. P494 --
4 or, rather, 549. There was an error in the transcript at the time. Yes,
5 that's the document for which the Prosecutor said that it was proof of
6 the fact that this was Dosen's group. Can we have page 2, please. Page
7 2, please.
8 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Paragraph 2 from the bottom where it says,
10 "active in the area of Prijedor were ...," can you tell us which were
11 the groups identified in this document?
12 A. In the area of Prijedor, there were several active self-styled
13 groups, such as Macko's [phoen] group from the village of Micevici
14 [phoen], I believe, led by Stojan Vracar; then Zolje's group led by
15 Sljevcevic [phoen], aka Zolje; and Ciga's group led by Radanovic.
16 JUDGE KWON: Next page for the English.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Paragraph 3 in English.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Yes, please go ahead.
20 A. Should I start from the beginning?
21 Q. No need.
22 A. Aka Cigo from Omarska. As general mobilisation was carried out,
23 these groups came under the 343rd Motorised Brigade and implemented their
24 tasks in an organised fashion. In the area of Bosanski Novi there was
25 the group of bandits called Suva Rebra.
1 Q. Can you tell us is this consistent with your knowledge of these
2 various groups, and, secondly, is there any mention of Dosen's group
4 A. I am aware of the existence of all these groups and their
5 commanding officers. From what I can tell, there is no mention of Dosen
7 Q. Thank you. The Suva Rebra group is that the one you mention in
8 paragraph 14 of your statement, a member of which you arrested?
9 A. There was only one group active in our area and it was called
10 Suva Rebra. It hailed from the area of Novi Grad, what was then
11 Bosanski Novi.
12 Q. Thank you. At page 41, the Prosecutor said that there was a
13 patrol -- a group -- that your group, actually, patrolled around the
14 mosque. Was it indeed the case that it patrolled around the mosque and
15 what was its patrolling area? How large was it?
16 A. That's what I wanted to explain, that we didn't participate in
17 these events at all. This area has a small river, Puharska, running
18 across it, and on one bank of that river, that was where the mosque was
19 situated. My patrols consisted of two members, senior members of an
20 advanced age, and they were moving on the left-hand side in relation to
21 the mosque. When the explosion took place, they were some 50 metres away
22 from the mosque, that's to say away from the explosion site. As a
23 result, one of them was injured, although both of them were under shock
24 and both were knocked to the ground as a result of the explosion.
25 Q. Did I understand this correctly, that outside of your patrolling
1 area and outside of the area where there was the mosque, a small river
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. At page 32, it was suggested that the weapons held by the
5 Territorial Defence were relocated to the JNA barracks.
6 Do you know how successfully this measure was, indeed,
7 implemented? Or to what extent it was not successful, in terms of having
8 all those who were authorised to have weapon, such as companies, TO
9 depots, et cetera, to have them turn the weapons over?
10 A. All those who had weapons kept them. In the various companies,
11 they did not get organised into units but they did at the level of the
12 local commune. One such TO unit which consisted mainly of Muslims,
13 talking about Puharska, kept the entire weaponry of the TO. A reserve
14 police force was attached to them under that same principle. As a
15 result, I decided that in that area - that is to say, Puharska - I should
16 not be deploying my units. I believed that their presence would be a
17 source of irritation for the local population residing in the area, and I
18 was apprehensive of the fact that we may even cause a conflict there.
19 My intention was to try and reach an agreement in order to disarm
20 these units which, at that point, were, in fact, paramilitary, to avert
21 any fighting and harm coming to the civilian population. I was partly
22 successful in that, because there were some individuals there who
23 understood what my intentions were and supported them, so they
24 implemented this idea in part. The only request on their part was that
25 no lists should be drawn up of the individuals surrendering weapons.
1 I asked them to go through the disarming process themselves
2 because I was afraid that my presence there and the presence of my
3 soldiers there would have negative effect. Seven or eight individuals
4 were actively participating in this process of partial disarming, and I
5 emphasise partial because Puharska had close to 5.000 inhabitants. All
6 the weapons that they agreed to surrendering in this way could fit into a
7 tractor trailer. Those who gathered these weapons - and I'm still
8 grateful to them for that - handed these weapons over to the barracks.
9 It is quite certain that the great majority of them did not hand
10 their weapons over because most of the weapons that were surrendered were
11 civilian hunting weapons and only a couple of them were semi-automatic
12 and automatic military rifles. There were among them those who
13 deliberately obstructed this process and even went as far as to
14 physically abuse the individuals who decided to hand their weapons over.
15 So the action was partially carried out, and I was quite happy
16 with that because I was able to continue engaging in human, private and
17 professional, and any other sort of communication with these people.
18 Q. And my last question: What became of the individual who
19 surrendered their weapons and co-operated with you with a view to
20 maintaining the peace? And I'm referring to the Croats and Muslims.
21 A. I continued to co-operate with them, and, as I've said in my
22 statement, they trusted me. So, on several occasions when I helped them,
23 and at their request supplied them with some medication that was very
24 difficult to get hold of, especially at that time, including antibiotics
25 and medicine for heart diseases, and whenever they asked me I supplied
1 whatever I could without any money given in return, because, I, as a
2 commander, could take this medication from our military infirmary.
3 And, anyway, we co-operated in every possible way until the
4 attack on Prijedor and that area causing casualties.
5 Q. What was the doctrine of the JNA in terms of co-operation between
6 the army and the people, when you mentioned these medicines?
7 A. I explained on my personal example how that happened in my area,
8 but I also had the full support of my superior command, and I didn't need
9 to conceal from my command whom I was helping, including the cases of --
10 when I supplied food to some families who were in need.
11 Q. How long did this co-operation last; and how long did they stay
12 in their homes?
13 A. The co-operation lasted till the very end, considering that a
14 large number of them remained in their homes until the end of the war.
15 But what happened after the attack on Prijedor, considering that some of
16 the units that had attacked Prijedor withdrew through Puharska and, as
17 far as my unit is concerned, they had free passage there. That's why
18 they used this route to attack. That attack actually resulted in what I
19 initially thought was the number of 30 people, although I later learned
20 that it was perhaps closer to 60 people being taken away on two buses.
21 And among them were some people who would certainly not have been taken
22 away if I had had any influence in the selection because they had proven
23 their goodwill and readiness to have everything done peacefully and in
24 the best possible way.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further
2 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Thank you.
3 Mr. Vujic, that concludes your evidence. On behalf of the
4 Chamber, I would like to thank you for your coming to The Hague to give
5 it. Now you are free to go.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 [The witness withdrew]
8 JUDGE KWON: I was told that we need some five minutes for
9 preparation for the next witness, but before we do so, I have another
10 couple of matters to deal with.
11 First, we will -- the Chamber will issue an oral ruling on the
12 Prosecution motion to exclude, in part, the evidence of Witness KW426
13 filed on 24th of January, 2014, and on the Prosecution request for leave
14 to reply to Karadzic's response thereto filed on the
15 27th of January, 2014.
16 The Prosecution requests that the Chamber order that
17 paragraphs 14 to 33 be excluded from KW426's statement on the basis that
18 they detail events in Kotor Varos, a municipality that has been dropped
19 from the indictment, and are therefore irrelevant to the charges against
20 the accused.
21 The accused responded on the 27th of January, 2014, opposing the
22 motion and submitting that the expected evidence is relevant to rebut the
23 evidence of Prosecution Witness Dorothea Hanson, that Kotor Varos was
24 representative of how nation policies were implemented in the
1 At the outset, the Chamber notes that the witness statement does
2 not indicate that the witness has any knowledge as to the implementation
3 of national policies in the municipalities. In fact, in relation to
4 Kotor Varos, he states that as far as he recalls, he attended only one
5 meeting of the Crisis Staff there. Kotor Varos is one of the
6 municipalities which have been removed from the indictment. While the
7 Chamber has heard some Prosecution and Defence evidence on this
8 municipality from a number of witnesses, either in passing or in some
9 more detail, the portions of witness's statement relating to Kotor Varos
10 are very detailed and do not relate to -- do not relate to the charges in
11 the indictment or to a determination of the accused's responsibility.
12 The Chamber further notes that the accused was given ample
13 opportunity to cross-examine Ms. Hanson on all of her reports and that
14 during the course of his cross-examination, that the Chamber admitted a
15 large number of documents he put to Hanson on the topics she addressed in
16 her reports.
17 The Chamber, therefore, grants the motion and concludes
18 paragraphs 14 to 33, allows the accused to tender the remainder of
19 Witness KW426's statement pursuant to Rule 92 ter, and denies the
20 Prosecution's request for leave to reply.
21 For the next matter, shall we upload Exhibit D4204?
22 This is the statement we received as 92 ter statement of
23 Defence's 207th witness, Radomir Radinkovic.
24 Next page, both in English and B/C/S, page 2, just related to
25 question 1.
1 In the process of reviewing this statement, the Chamber noticed
2 that the term "concentration camp" was used in the draft English
3 translation of the statement under question 1, which in B/C/S reads
4 "sabirni logor." However, having looked at the B/C/S version of the
5 statement, the Chamber is concerned that the reference "concentration
6 camp" may be the result of an incorrect English translation. Thus, the
7 Chamber will order the CLSS to revise the draft translation of this
8 exhibit, focussing specifically on the question -- answer to question
9 number 1, on page 2 of the statement, and report back to the Chamber by
10 the end of this week.
11 We will rise for five minutes.
12 --- Break taken at 1.47 p.m.
13 [The witness entered court]
14 --- On resuming at 1.54 p.m.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes, would the witness make the solemn declaration,
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
18 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
19 WITNESS: KW609
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, sir. Please be seated and make yourself
23 I take it that you understand the protective measures given --
24 granted to you, that you will be referred to only by your pseudonym or as
25 just simply "the witness," and your face will not be shown to the public
1 outside the courtroom.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's clear.
3 JUDGE KWON: And before you commence your evidence, Mr. Witness,
4 I must draw your attention to a certain rule of evidence that we have
5 here at the international Tribunal; that is, Rule 90(E). Under this
6 rule, you may object to answering any question from Mr. Karadzic, the
7 Prosecutor, or even from the Judges, if you believe that your answer
8 might incriminate you in a criminal offence.
9 In this context, "incriminate" means saying something that amount
10 to an admission of guilt for a criminal offence or saying something that
11 might provide evidence that you might have committed a criminal offence.
12 However, should you think that an answer might incriminate you and as a
13 consequence you refuse to answer the question, I must let you know that
14 the Tribunal has the power to compel you to answer the question. But, in
15 that situation, the Tribunal would ensure that your testimony compelled
16 under such circumstances would not be used in any case that might be laid
17 against you for any case, save and except the offence of giving false
18 testimony. Do you understand that, sir?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.
20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
21 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
24 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.
25 A. Good afternoon, Mr. Karadzic.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 1D09651
2 without broadcasting it.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Can you tell us if you see on this sheet before you your name
5 associated with this number?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tendered this document, under
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive it under seal.
11 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D4244, under seal, Your Honours.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Witness, did you testify in the Stanisic and Zupljanin case?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Have you recently had the opportunity to listen to the recording
17 of that testimony?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. If I were to put to you the same questions you were asked in that
20 trial, would your answers be essentially the same?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we pull up 1D09538, without
24 broadcasting, although perhaps it could be broadcast because the document
25 uses the pseudonym as well. And then I would tender this document under
1 92 ter.
2 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. I don't think it is necessary
3 to call this up. It's the transcript in English, so we can all agree
4 that this is the transcript, so I don't think we have to do anything
5 further with that.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tendered the transcript.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Any objection, Ms. Sutherland?
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Good afternoon, Your Honours. No.
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive the transcript.
11 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President. The transcript actually
12 is in two numbers. One is confidential, should be received under seal;
13 that's 1D9538A. And then the public version, 1D9538.
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes we'll admit both versions.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 1D9538A will be
16 Exhibit D4245 under seal. And 1D9538 will be Exhibit D4246.
17 JUDGE KWON: Shall we deal with associated exhibits,
18 Mr. Robinson?
19 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. We are offering 13 associated
20 exhibits, all of those that are not already admitted that are on our list
21 with the exception of the pseudonym sheet. I can go through them one by
22 one or you can look at them on the chart.
23 JUDGE KWON: So excluding the pseudonym sheet you're tendering 13
24 associated exhibits?
25 MR. ROBINSON: That's correct.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Shall I hear from Ms. Sutherland whether she
2 has any objections.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour, I do.
4 First of all, in relation to 1D9644, that document was not
5 tendered nor admitted in -- by the Stanisic/Zupljanin Trial Chamber, so
6 it shouldn't be listed as an associated exhibit.
7 Would you like me to go on?
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes. It's better to deal with one by one.
9 Mr. Robinson, would you like to add anything?
10 MR. ROBINSON: Well, in principle, Mr. President, something is
11 discussed during the testimony it can be can integral part of the
12 evidence without having been admitted in the other proceeding. But I
13 leave it to you as to whether or not you believe it is an integral or
14 indispensable part of the testimony.
15 JUDGE KWON: I take it as a matter of principle there's no
16 requirement for a document to be an indispensable/inseparable part of the
17 document to be admitted in the -- in the previous proceedings. But in
18 this case, I'm not sure it has any assistance or relevance or probative
19 value to the Defence case.
20 So I -- the Chamber -- if the Defence is not insisting upon this,
21 let's just -- let's move on.
22 Yes, what is your next objections, Ms. Sutherland?
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, there are also three Official Notes
24 which are 1D9645, 1D9646 -- I'm sorry, I'll start again. 1D9646, 1D9647
25 and 1D9649, which are Official Notes and there are also a number of
1 Official Notes and one record of a statement combined within what is
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: While appreciating that these form part of
5 associated exhibits following the Trial Chamber's practice in relation to
6 these third-party statements, they would not normally be admitted and we
7 submit for that reason they should not be admitted in this case at the --
8 now. And they could be passed out of what is 1D9645. But --
9 JUDGE KWON: But we have had practice to exclude Official Note
10 from associated exhibits.
11 Mr. Robinson, do you have any observation?
12 MR. ROBINSON: Well, in principle, Mr. President, we have not
13 been admitting third-party statements as associated exhibits. In this
14 particular case where they form a part of the previous testimony and the
15 Trial Chamber that heard the case, we leave it to you to decide whether
16 or not it's an indispensable or inseparable part, but were it simply a
17 witness statement and not testimony from another proceeding, it would be
18 our practice not to admit the third-party statement as an associated
20 JUDGE KWON: I remember at one point in time that we ruled that
21 Official Note is different -- a such is not a third-party statement.
22 Yes, Ms. Sutherland.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, the -- there was a distinction that
24 was -- I think it was with KDZ192 where there was no distinction made
25 between the Official Note and -- and a MUP statement. They were both,
1 following your guide-lines, not admitted. And that's, I think, at ...
2 Trial Chamber -- sorry, transcript page 19495 to 19496.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Just out of abundance of caution, we'll mark
4 these three Official Notes for identification and come back to this issue
5 later on, probably tomorrow.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, can I just say the second basis? I
7 said the first reason, but I didn't articulate the second.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Simply because there's -- there's no link or
10 there's nexus between the witness and the document and when the witness
11 has simply confirmed that the note is an example of the format of -- of
12 -- of the way an Official Note is taken, the only other thing that he
13 could say in relation to the Official Notes that were shown to him was
14 that he doesn't remember the particular detainee, or he can't recognise
15 the initials of the -- the statement taker. He hasn't testified to
16 the -- to the content of any of the documents, and so in our submission
17 there is no nexus established between the witness and the document.
18 JUDGE KWON: We'll take a look into that aspect as well.
19 With respect to the last document, i.e. 1D9649, I note that it
20 was not admitted in that trial. But I'm not sure about the other two.
21 And [overlapping speakers]
22 MS. SUTHERLAND: [Overlapping speakers] ... and, Your Honours,
23 sorry. I think it may have been -- it was -- when it was first discussed
24 at transcript page 16831 to 168342 [sic] it wasn't admitted, but the
25 following day, I think through the second Defence counsel, it was
1 discussed at transcript page 16889 and 16891. And -- and, at that point,
2 it was admitted.
3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you for that clarification as well.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Also, just in relation to the associated exhibit
5 list, I note in relation -- on the -- on the second page of the list,
6 D3968, in the comment column, it's cited as P659; in fact, that is
7 exhibit -- Stanisic/Zupljanin Exhibit P671.
8 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. And with respect to 1D9645 which is
9 criminal file and of 59 pages, perhaps the Defence is tendering only
10 first two pages.
11 MR. ROBINSON: Well, we intended to tendered what was admitted in
12 the Stanisic/Zupljanin case. I'm not sure myself what that was right
14 JUDGE KWON: Then we'll come back to the four items tomorrow and
15 otherwise we will admit eight items as associated exhibits.
16 Yes, Mr. Tieger.
17 MR. TIEGER: Just to note, Mr. President, we've done a little
18 looking on that. If the Court wants some more information on when and
19 where this issue arose earlier, we can provide that, if it's helpful to
20 the Chamber.
21 JUDGE KWON: I see no difficulty with it.
22 MR. TIEGER: Simply noted that we found quickly three examples
23 during the course of the Prosecution case where the Trial Chamber
24 considered that third-party MUP or DB statements or notes were not
25 subject to admission on the basis of the lex specialis of 92 ter. I
1 think those arose at transcript pages 11814 and onwards, with Mr. Glavas;
2 at transcript 17491 through 95, with KDZ340. And I think in the example
3 Ms. Sutherland gave earlier, KDZ192 at transcript 1945 through 96. And
4 indeed at one point the Trial Chamber itself raised the flood-gate point
5 which Mr. Robinson agreed with. We actually had a discussion about that
6 shortly before this session began, and Mr. Robinson agreed with our
7 understanding that that had been the practice of the parties thereafter
8 to refrain from tendering such documents.
9 JUDGE KWON: Probably I might have been confused with MUP report,
10 so I will take a look again and come back to this issue.
11 Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
12 By the way, have we assigned exhibit numbers for the eight
13 exhibits? We'll do it later on, in writing.
14 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
15 JUDGE KWON: By way of memo. Yes. Thank you.
16 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 I will now read out in English a short summary of this witness's
20 [In English] Witness KW609 was a resident of Prijedor
22 The witness worked at the Omarska camp from May until
23 August 1992. He states that security at the camp was provided by members
24 of the public security service of Prijedor and its Omarska department.
25 The Omarska camp commander was Mr. Zeljko Mejakic, commander of
1 the Omarska branch of the SJB Prijedor. Mejakic's primary duties were to
2 secure the buildings with detainees, provide food and medical care, in
3 co-operation with relevant services. Mr. Mejakic's duty -- deputy,
4 Mr. Miroslav Kvocka, was fired for having taken three Muslims (his wife's
5 brothers) out of the camp. The Witness KW609 states Mladjo Radic was the
6 shift commander at the camp and Drago Prcac was also at the camp.
7 The Witness KW609, all the time it's 609, states that only active
8 police officers had full uniforms. Reserve policemen's uniforms were
9 often incomplete due to the lack of uniforms. KW609 witness states that
10 after the order from Ratko Mladic on the 3rd of August, 1992, the camp
11 was prepared, cleaned, and extra beds put in place for the visit of the
12 International Red Cross on the 4th of August, 1992.
13 Mr. Mejakic was obliged to report to Simo Drljaca and the
14 operational team, part of the latter was also KW609. Simo Drljaca was at
15 the camp twice. Rajko Mijic - Branko Mijic, probably - who conducted
16 interviews with detainees at the camp communicated with Drljaca over the
17 telephone every morning about everything that happened on the previous
18 day as well as providing Drljaca with the list of people to be brought in
19 for an interview.
20 KW609 states that there was "support unit" from Banja Luka of
21 approximately ten people (size of a squad) under the command of
22 Commander Strazivuk, present in Omarska. They arrived with a blue APC
23 and according to words from Mejakic, they were taking gold and other
24 valuables from detainees that came to Omarska. This act made tensions
25 between the support unit and policemen under Mejakic's control. The
1 support unit left these events, were communicated to Simo Drljaca.
2 There was second-ring security outside Omarska camp under
3 military security detail. Military officers under control of
4 Lieutenant-Colonel Majstorovic initially also carried out operative
5 processing of mainly individuals who were members of the Yugoslav army.
6 There were ten mixed teams working from Omarska. There were ten
7 State Security Service inspectors. Similarly, public security service
8 had ten inspectors who were under the command of Ranko Mijic. There were
9 also members of military security under the command of
10 Lieutenant Majstorovic. Such organisation/separation of work was defined
11 by Mr. Simo Drljaca in one of his orders. Furthermore, analysis of
12 documents was done jointly and persons of security interest would then be
13 further processed.
14 Dusan Jankovic was Simo Drljaca's chief deputy and responsible
15 for the co-ordination of the implementation of an order to collaborate
16 with Banja Luka Security Services Centre. The municipal authorities in
17 Prijedor were providing Omarska with food, while Prijedor Medical Centre
18 provided medical services.
19 It was requested that any individual taken to remand centre must
20 be accompanied with proper documents showing the reasons for detention
21 and/or custody. This was only respected at the beginning.
22 Interrogations were conducted on the first floor of the two-storey
23 buildings. Initially people were interrogated on the basis of area they
24 came from and then categorised in three groups: Group 3 had no
25 information of security interest; group 1 were ring-leaders of hostile
1 activities; and group 2 were supporters of hostile activities. First-
2 and second-category detainees would be transferred to Manjaca, while
3 third-category detainees would go to Trnopolje. Transfers happened at
4 the end of July or beginning of August 1992. During the whole period,
5 around 3.000 people were interrogated.
6 KW609 was aware of only one case of physical force being used to
7 obtain information from a detainee during the interrogations. Each
8 inspector had to write an Official Note after each interrogation. After
9 further statements from individuals mentioned in the Official Note were
10 taken, criminal reports were created.
11 KW609 was only aware of one case of a detainee being brought for
12 interrogation with fresh bruises. In July 1992, KW609 was notified of an
13 event where 18 detainees have been killed upon the recommendation and the
14 list compiled with the Inspector Rade Knezevic. KW609 reported this
15 incident to Mr. Simo Drljaca.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Before I finish my direct examination, Witness, do you have a
18 back problem? And could we perhaps ask the Trial Chamber to grant us
19 additional breaks, if you need them, if your back hurts.
20 A. For the time being, I don't have particular problems. If
21 something happens, I will ask the Chamber to assist me.
22 JUDGE KWON: By all means, Mr. Witness.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I have one remark to
2 I heard in the interpretation that I stated something concerning
3 a detachment instead of a squad. Militarily speaking, the difference is
4 considerable. This unit was said in the summary to come from Banja Luka
5 and to be a regiment, but it's actually a squad.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, it should be squad.
7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
8 Just a second. Refer -- coming back to the issue of
9 Official Note, suppose they are third-party statement, when confirmed and
10 commented upon by the witness, there's a basis to be admitted.
11 Do you agree, Mr. Tieger?
12 MR. TIEGER: Well, I recall, Mr. President, that -- that -- well,
13 first of all, that would not be the case, as I understand it. Of course,
14 if it fell within the lex specialis of 92 bis. The question was the
15 distinction the Court was drawing in our case between statements of third
16 parties that didn't technically fall within 92 bis, but that nevertheless
17 for other reasons were considered not to assist the Chamber and be
19 JUDGE KWON: But when we talk about lex specialis, refer to the
20 statement that have been produced for the purpose of current proceedings.
21 MR. TIEGER: That -- correct. As I recall and, again, I'd have
22 to review the research we undertook on that. Certainly that would
23 embrace -- I mean, that was an issue at one time. I think it became
24 expanded over time, that at one time it was seen to be simply statements
25 taken only intended to be submitted as statements and then it was
1 broadened to some extent. So I wouldn't want to speak specifically to
2 that. But I -- I --
3 JUDGE KWON: My point is this: So instead of waiting until
4 tomorrow and before the cross-examination starts, it would be better for
5 Mr. Karadzic to deal with these Official Note live with this witness, if
6 he is minded to tender these Official Notes at all.
7 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. We're not minded to tendered
8 those Official Notes unless you felt it was an indispensable part of the
9 testimony that was being admitted.
10 JUDGE KWON: Very well. That being the case, I will invite
11 Ms. Sutherland to begin her cross.
12 MR. TIEGER: And, sorry, Mr. President, should have caught your
13 point earlier.
14 JUDGE KWON: Well -- thank you.
15 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Sutherland, please proceed.
17 Cross-examination by Ms. Sutherland:
18 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
19 A. Good afternoon.
20 Q. When you testified which is now the basis of your evidence in
21 this case, you were shown a document, and in our case it's 65 ter number
22 25594, it's a cover letter of the Prijedor municipal secretariat
23 regarding reimbursement of the cost of using buses for the needs of the
24 Crisis Staff in July 1992.
25 Do you recall that document?
1 Do you recall seeing that document when you -- when you
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honours, it's an associated exhibit but I
4 don't know the exhibit number. That's why I referred to it by the 65 ter
6 THE REGISTRAR: It's now Exhibit D4247, Ms. Sutherland.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] At this moment, I cannot recall a
8 document discussing money and collection of payment. I would need to see
9 the document.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND:
11 Q. Can you see it on the screen in front of you? It's asking for
12 the amount of 273.000 dinars for the cost of transport for the month of
14 You said in relation to that document when discussing this
15 document that detainees were transported in -- in Autotransport bus from
16 Keraterm to Omarska, and you also said that this transfer took place two
17 or three days after you started working at the Keraterm camp. So this
18 would have been late May 1992, yes?
19 A. That is correct.
20 Q. You also testified that once a number of people from Prijedor
21 municipality were brought to Omarska during the day. You recall saying
23 A. Yes.
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I could have 65 ter 18905, please.
25 Q. Sir, what will be coming up onto the screen is a table setting
1 out Autotransport Prijedor buses used in 1990 -- for -- in July 1992 for
2 the use of the Crisis Staff, the police, and the army.
3 Now, if we look at the entry for the 9th of July, 1992, we can
4 see that passenger transport was used to transfer detainees from Keraterm
5 to Omarska. Do you recall seeing or hearing of detainees being
6 transferred from Keraterm to Omarska in early July?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we ask for the number under
8 which -- oh, it's the 9th of July.
9 It says -- where does it say that it concerns prisoners,
10 detainees? It would be of assistance.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can see, these are
12 local lines in Prijedor municipality: Tukovi-Trnopolje,
13 Trnopolje-Banja Luka, Trnopolje-Modrica, Trnopolje-Pasinac,
14 Trnopolje-Pejici. Those were local transport services that operate
15 normally every day in the municipality. Pejici, for instance, is an
16 exclusively Serbian village.
17 I did state that the buses of the transport company Prijedor were
18 involved in the transport of people from Keraterm to Omarska. That's
19 what I said in my evidence at Stanisic and Zupljanin and I stand by this
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: I take Mr. Karadzic's point. I did say we can
22 see on the entry for the 9th of July passenger transport used to
23 transport detainees from Keraterm to Omarska. And that wasn't what I
24 meant to say.
25 Looking at the entry for the 9th the July we can see that buses
1 are used, at least four buses for the army's purposes, to go from
2 Keraterm to Omarska.
3 JUDGE KWON: If necessary, we can collapse the English and zoom
4 in to the B/C/S further.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you for that suggestion, Your Honour.
6 Q. Do you -- my question is: Do you recall seeing or hearing of
7 detainees coming from Keraterm to Omarska in early July, a large number,
8 four buses?
9 A. Yes. Some of the prisoners on whom we had some security
10 information were to be transferred from Keraterm to Omarska. So those
11 persons about whom some security information existed were brought to
12 Omarska for further processing.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: And if we could turn the page to page 2 of the
14 B/C/S and also page 2 of the English, we can see the entry for the 22nd
15 of July, 1992, and it shows ten buses for the use of the army going from
16 Prijedor to Omarska and on to Trnopolje.
17 Q. Do you recall a large number of people --
18 A. I remember that some four buses were returned to Trnopolje from
19 Omarska because we were not able to receive so many people in Omarska.
20 There was not enough room for them, quite simply. Yes, that one case
22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I seek to tender this document.
23 JUDGE KWON: Two pages.
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: It's --
25 JUDGE KWON: [Overlapping speakers] ...
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Three. It's three in the English -- sorry,
2 three in the English and two in the B/C/S.
3 JUDGE KWON: If you could identify the dates. 9th of July.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, it's a two-page document.
5 JUDGE KWON: Oh, yes. We'll admit that.
6 No objection, Mr. Robinson?
7 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive it.
9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6614, Your Honours.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Oh, sorry, if we -- if we just go to page 3 of
11 the English and the second page of the -- of the B/C/S, we can see down
12 the bottom of the list for the Crisis Staff the figure 31, and then the
13 kilometres and the figure of 273.000, which correlates with the other
14 document, the first document, that I brought up which was 65 ter 25594.
15 Your Honour, at this point, the majority, if not all of my
16 cross-examination is going to have to be in private session because of
17 what I'm -- the details I'm going to get into. So I'm terrible sorry for
18 the public that is sitting in the gallery, but there's nothing that we
19 can do about it.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes. The Chamber will go into private session.
21 MR. TIEGER: Mr. President.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
23 MR. TIEGER: If we're moving in -- I have one point I wanted to
24 raise in open session at the risk of being tiresome but I wanted to -- so
25 we don't have confusion. The Trial Chamber asked me a few moments ago
1 whether or not the -- if it is a third-party statement, if it could be
2 admitted, the witness commented on it. The wanted to draw the Court's
3 attention to a ruling in the -- during the (redacted)
4 (redacted) where I think the -- the practice that I referred to
5 earlier was followed in which the objection was made that such document
6 fell within the lex specialis and was considered by the Trial Chamber
7 to -- to be such. And the -- the -- the document was not -- excuse me,
8 was not admitted on that basis.
9 JUDGE KWON: But I think we admitted yesterday or the day
10 after -- before yesterday --
11 MR. TIEGER: Right. That's the reason I went and did the
12 research. Because it -- it -- it struck me at that point that we had
13 shifted from a practice that had been established before, so --
14 JUDGE KWON: I think there was a confusion what -- as to the
15 scope of the documents produced for the purpose of criminal proceedings.
16 Whether it is limited to the current the proceedings or it includes the
17 proceedings in the former Yugoslavia as well. But I think it has been
19 We'll come back to that issue.
20 MR. TIEGER: Okay. In any event, I wanted the Court to have the
21 benefit of the citation.
22 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Yes, could the Chamber go into
23 private session.
24 [Private session]
11 Pages 46117-46121 redacted. Private session.
12 [Open session]
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we are now in open session again.
14 Mr. Witness, we continue tomorrow at 9.00. I like to advise you
15 not to discuss with anybody else about your testimony while you are
16 giving evidence here at the Tribunal.
17 Do you understand that, sir?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
20 Hearing is adjourned.
21 [The witness stands down]
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.48 p.m.,
23 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 29th day of
24 January, 2014, at 9.00 a.m.