Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 46123

 1                           Wednesday, 29 January 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  Today we'll be sitting

 7     pursuant to Rule 15 bis with Judge Morrison away.  This will continue for

 8     the remainder of this week.

 9             Good morning, Mr. Harvey.

10             MR. HARVEY:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.  May I

11     introduce Ms. Emily Elliot, who holds degrees in politics and law from

12     the UK, and she's been with us since last November.  Thank you, kindly.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.  Please continue.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Good morning, Your Honours.  May we go into

15     private session.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Due to the protective measures granted to the

17     witness, we'll go into private session.

18                           [Private session]

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11  Pages 46124-46126 redacted.  Private session.















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23                           [Open session]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:

Page 46128

 1        Q.   Now, sir, you mention this one -- seeing this one dead body, but

 2     you did see others, yes?

 3        A.   I didn't see other bodies behind that body.  I assume that it was

 4     done at the time when we were absent from the Omarska camp, in other

 5     words at night.

 6        Q.   I mean, did you -- you did see other dead bodies around the camp.

 7     We have evidence in this case that dead bodies could be seen lying around

 8     the camp, in particular near the white house, on a very regular basis.

 9     Now, you worked in the camp for almost three months, eight to ten hours

10     every day.  And is it your evidence that you didn't see at any other time

11     during that period any dead bodies lying around the camp?

12        A.   At the time I saw this one body, I didn't see any others.

13        Q.   No, I'm talking about at any other -- on any other occasion, is

14     it your evidence that you saw no other bodies on any other occasion?

15        A.   Well, now I can't remember exactly.  Next to the white house?

16        Q.   Anywhere.

17        A.   I can't remember now.

18        Q.   In your Stanisic/Zupljanin testimony, you refer to the Omarska

19     camp a number of times as a remand centre.  This wasn't a remand prison

20     for the huge number of persons detained there, was it?  A remand --

21     sorry.

22        A.   We started working there and we called it the operative

23     investigation centre.  In time, as people started arriving in large

24     numbers, I can agree - and I concede - that it could no longer be called

25     a reception investigation centre.

Page 46129

 1        Q.   That's right, because a remand prison is where suspects who have

 2     been charged are held awaiting trial, and it also requires a remand order

 3     for the detention, doesn't it?

 4        A.   That is the case under the law.

 5        Q.   You either have a detention order issued by the police to hold

 6     someone for three days or a court order for 30 days which can be extended

 7     by a chamber of a court for an additional period of time; correct?

 8        A.   In normal circumstances that is the case.  However, there was a

 9     state of war in Prijedor at the time.  A conflict broke out between the

10     paramilitary formations on the one hand and the police and the army on

11     the other.  Certain areas of town and villages in the municipality of

12     Prijedor were being mopped up, and simply this could not be adhered to at

13     this point.  I do agree with you that what you've just said is the

14     procedure under the law.

15        Q.   No charges were brought against the overwhelmingly vast majority

16     of detainees?

17        A.   That's correct.

18        Q.   And some civilians were held for up to nearly three months

19     without any justification?

20        A.   In fact, in my evidence in Zupljanin and Stanisic, I said that

21     our position was that in respect of those persons about whom there was no

22     interesting operative information, and that was category 3 under our

23     categorisation, should be released.  However, an order arrived from

24     Mr. Drljaca that nobody should be released regardless of the intelligence

25     gathered about them, and that's how this group of more than 1.000

Page 46130

 1     individuals stayed on in Omarska throughout the time.

 2        Q.   Now we have an exhibit in this case, P02772, dated the

 3     5th of August, 1992, from the Prijedor SJB which states that 1.446 people

 4     for which valid documentation exists would be transferred to Manjaca.

 5     And on the 6th of August, 1992, over a thousand detainees were

 6     transferred from Omarska to Manjaca.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Now, Your Honours, I need to go into

 8     private session to continue this questioning.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

10                           [Private session]

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11  Pages 46131-46132 redacted.  Private session.















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21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We are now in open session, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE KWON:  So this is your last topic?

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

Page 46134

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 2        Q.   You testified at transcript page 16790 to 16791 that the camp was

 3     cleaned up where -- the individuals who stayed in the camp for the ICRC

 4     visit and that additional beds were brought in.  And --

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm sorry, Your Honour, we're going to need to

 6     go into private session again.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 8                           [Private session]

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Page 46136

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21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We are now in open session, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE KWON:  So, Ms. Sutherland, you conclude your

24     cross-examination?

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

Page 46137

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, your Excellency, a few

 3     questions.

 4             Good morning, your Excellencies.  Good morning to all.

 5                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Witness.

 7        A.   Good morning.

 8        Q.   I would kindly like to ask for assistance if I do not say on time

 9     that we should go into closed session, but I assume that won't be

10     necessary.  I'll do my best.

11             Please, Witness, today on page 12 you gave an answer in the

12     affirmative to the effect that these 175 persons were left in Omarska

13     only so that they could be shown as such to the International Red Cross.

14     Was that the only reason why these 175 persons were left there after the

15     transport of the other 1.000 to Manjaca?

16        A.   That's the reason I know.  As for other reasons, no.  Right now I

17     haven't got any explanation.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Beforehand, when there were several thousand there,

19     could you have obtained these beds and could you have made it more

20     comfortable?

21        A.   Well, no.  In terms of the number of people who were there, it

22     was not possible.  There wasn't enough room for all those beds.

23        Q.   Thank you.  On page 11, a document was shown to you, D30752, and

24     it says there that I don't know how many - 400-something - had been dealt

25     with and a promise is being made that within a week others would be dealt

Page 46138

 1     with.  But before that, I'd like to ask you the following:  Do you know

 2     whether, and if so to what extent, the ministry and the CSB from

 3     Banja Luka made sure that these investigations were based on the law?

 4     Did they send orders, documents, et cetera?

 5        A.   The chief of the Prijedor station, Mr. Drljaca, received all of

 6     that because they were linked to Banja Luka from an organisational point

 7     of view.  I mean, Simo would from time to time give us information

 8     specifically in relation to that unit.  I mean, they had come from

 9     Banja Luka to help.  As for the other details, I cannot say because I was

10     in Omarska all the time and I was not in a position to see all of these

11     documents.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

14     D3968.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   If the participants --

17             JUDGE KWON:  Before we proceed further, could the Chamber move

18     into private session very briefly.

19             Yes.

20                           [Private session]

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Page 46139

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 7                           [Open session]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we are in open session.

 9             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Mr. Witness, please, take a look at this, the 9th of August,

13     Drljaca is sending information to the security services centre of

14     Banja Luka that is in charge.  And look at this, it says in the second

15     paragraph, right now -- or rather, at this moment 175 prisoners of war

16     are at this centre and they are being processed criminally in order to

17     establish individual responsibilities in the armed rebellion in the

18     Prijedor municipality territory.  And further on, it says that it is an

19     open centre.  You knew of one purpose.  Do you allow for the possibility

20     that this was another reason why the 175 were left there, so that

21     investigations could be carried out fully?

22        A.   I don't know right now.  I mean, really I cannot recall, I mean

23     whether there were any additional investigations at that point in time in

24     relation to these persons.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 46140

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

 2     1D02954.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   While we're waiting, Mr. Witness, do you know what was the date?

 5     The 16th of August.  Do you know whether all of the documents were sent

 6     to Manjaca?  Full documentation.

 7        A.   Well, I guess so, but I cannot say anything because I no longer

 8     took part in the elaboration of that documentation; that is to say that I

 9     went to the official premises of the state security and continued work.

10        Q.   Thank you.  We haven't got the original Serbian version, so I'm

11     going to read this out to you, the part that matters.  The reference is

12     the dispatch of the 19th of August.  And now I'm going to read it out in

13     English so that they could translate this for you.

14             [In English] "We repeat our orders that all CSBs, SJBs, and their

15     organisational units, that is all staff of the

16     Ministry of Internal Affairs, must treat prisoners of war and civilian

17     refugee in a manner which is in accordance with the laws, within the

18     competence of the MUP and compliance with the standards set by the law of

19     war and international conventions pertinent to these matters.

20             "You are requested to immediately report to the ministry of any

21     existence of illicit prisoners, camps, and similar facilities, and on any

22     persons who may have violated the laws of international conventions in

23     their treatment of prisoners of war and refugees."

24             [Interpretation] A moment ago you said to us that at morning

25     meetings you cautioned people.  This position of the ministry and of the

Page 46141

 1     CSB, how does that fit into your own experience?  What was the position

 2     of the authorities on the whole, as far as the treatment of detainees and

 3     refugees was concerned?

 4        A.   I think that the position of the authorities was that people

 5     should work in accordance with the law and as stated in this dispatch,

 6     this document.  However, in Prijedor, practically, something happened and

 7     the law was not observed to a large extent; that is to say, things

 8     happened, things that were not supposed to happen on the basis of the

 9     law.  And I'm saying that, I mean, for the most part, this is something

10     that individuals did, a small number of guards and a small number of

11     inspectors.  Quite simply, they did not behave in accordance with their

12     authority or in accordance with the law.  A few times I issued warnings,

13     cautions, to guards and colleagues from Banja Luka, too.  And this guard

14     gave me the following comment:  He asked me whether I felt sorry for

15     Muslims if that is how I treated him, and this person from Banja Luka

16     said, I have nothing to do with you, I have my chief in Banja Luka.  And

17     I respect this position taken by Minister Stanisic and what he sent, but

18     individuals in Prijedor did not take that into account.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Can you say whether this was a majority or a

20     minority?  Can you tell us whether this was the exception or the rule,

21     these situations when the law was not observed?

22        A.   Well, of course it was a minority.  I mean, a number of these

23     reserve officers at the Prijedor station really behaved in a manner that

24     was improper for a policeman.  But it seems that they were not trained

25     sufficiently, so they did not know how to behave.  Unfortunately, even

Page 46142

 1     some inspectors behaved contrary to all conventions, Geneva Conventions,

 2     and these legal provisions adopted by our own authorities at the level of

 3     the republic and at the level of the organisational units, centres and

 4     stations.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Did our authorities encourage or discourage this kind

 6     of behaviour?

 7        A.   Well, on the whole I think that -- I mean, the authorities did

 8     indicate that all conduct should be based on law, but we see that not all

 9     individuals respected that.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this be admitted.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No objection, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE KWON:  So this is document from Stanisic addressed to the

15     CSB Banja Luka, and then it circulated to all SJBs again.  Am I correct

16     in so understanding?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You are correct, Excellency.  The

18     minister is having this document sent through the Banja Luka centre to

19     the stations, but it has to do with all stations and centres.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll receive it.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D4255, Your Honours.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This was 65 ter 18 -- 418.  There

23     is a Serbian version under that number, but I didn't manage to find it.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not hear the next

25     number.

Page 46143

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat the number.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 18430.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   You were asked, Mr. Witness, about the ban on releases.  Were

 5     there individual releases, though, and could the fate of persons be

 6     controlled?  Or what would ultimately happen to these individuals that

 7     would be taken out?

 8                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  I'm told that we have another one in different

10     number which has an English translation.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  [Microphone not activated]

12             JUDGE KWON:  Microphone.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D4255 will be substituted with

14     65 ter 18430.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Are we going to see that?

16             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not following this.  What we are seeing now is

17     65 ter 18430.  This is different from what we admitted as Exhibit D4255.

18                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, we can -- we can look to provide

20     the B/C/S document of --

21             JUDGE KWON:  Just a --

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  -- D4255 if the Defence aren't able to locate

23     it.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Just, let's leave it.  We leave it as D4255 as it is

25     now and then we deal with this one.

Page 46144

 1             Please go on.  Carry on, Mr. Karadzic.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Serbian version of D4255 is

 3     65 ter 18418, and I asked for 430, and I don't think that it's the same

 4     text.  This one is of the 21st of August and the one a few moments ago

 5     was the 24th of August.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Could you please focus on the Serbian version, Mr. Witness, and

 8     could you help us with this.  It says here:

 9             "In our dispatches we ... informed you of the position of the

10     order of the Ministry of the Interior and other organs of the

11     Republika Srpska regarding the disbanding of collection centres," and so

12     on.

13             The second paragraph says:

14             "At the same time, chiefs of police stations were informed that

15     they should arrange the transport and return of isolated persons to the

16     municipalities and areas from which they had come in conjunction with the

17     municipality authorities in those areas."

18             How does this fit into your own knowledge about people being

19     allowed to go home and having transportation organised for them?  Is this

20     correct?

21        A.   I cannot say it is correct or incorrect because I don't know.  I

22     did not have this document, and, I mean, before I testified.  I haven't

23     been made aware of it.  And I cannot say yes or no.  I mean, quite

24     simply, I don't know.  I don't know of this activity.

25        Q.   But were people being allowed to go home?  Were there releases?

Page 46145

 1     Does this document indicate that and do you know that?

 2        A.   Well, we did release some people at -- however, at the very start

 3     of the work of the investigation centre was that those individuals, in

 4     respect of whom there was no interesting intelligence, should be

 5     released, and we did release them.  However, there followed the order by

 6     Chief Drljaca that -- without consulting him.  And so in the end,

 7     category 3 was sent to Trnopolje, despite our insistence that they be

 8     released; whereas the remainder were sent to Manjaca, and that's what I

 9     know.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Please look at paragraph 3.  It says here:

11             "However" --

12             JUDGE KWON:  I think now I understood it.  The first page of the

13     B/C/S that we are seeing now, isn't that the original version of the

14     English that we saw as being Exhibit D4255?  Because this is dated as

15     21st of August, but English translation is 24th of August, which is the

16     translation of the second page of this document.  I checked this

17     reference number.  I think it matches with the previous one.

18             Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I'm a tad confused as well, but we

20     can see that this document is signed by Zupljanin in the -- the original.

21     So I'm -- and -- and the English has Drljaca's --

22             JUDGE KWON:  Well, yes, Drljaca appears on the second page of

23     this document.  So we do not have -- that means that we do not have

24     English translation for this first page.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is possible, because page 2 was

Page 46146

 1     translated.  It's page 2 in Serbian and 1 in English.  It's possible,

 2     however, that this is the case.  We'll look into that.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  But --

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Please look at paragraph 3 --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  -- is it not possible the same document signed by

 7     Mico Stanisic was circulated by Zupljanin from the CSB in Banja --

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, that's -- that's what I'm

 9     assuming --

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  -- when I'm looking at the B/C/S version.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  So we are looking at the same document,

13     actually.  But I'm not sure.

14             So I leave it to you, Mr. Karadzic.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Overlapping speakers]

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm sorry, Your Honour, it just appears that

17     these two documents aren't correlating at all.  I mean, if we look at the

18     first paragraph of the B/C/S, it refers to two broad numbers --

19     broadge [phoen] numbers and then --

20             JUDGE KWON:  It's evident.  It's obvious that the English

21     document dated 24th is not the translation of this.  That's obvious.  But

22     my question for Mr. Karadzic is whether this document is the one we

23     already saw earlier on.

24             But please continue.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Elements are being repeated.  This

Page 46147

 1     has to do with the implementation of an order or a telegram from the

 2     Ministry of the Interior at various levels, from security services

 3     centres to public security stations.  Certain elements are being repeated

 4     but not everything is the same.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Can you help us?  It reads:

 7             "There are some indications that isolated individuals could be

 8     subject to assault, or, rather, threats upon their return."

 9             To the best of your knowledge, who would assault them or expose

10     them to threats upon their return?  Would it be representatives of the

11     authority or somebody else?

12        A.   Well, of course they would be individuals or groups holding

13     opposite views or being members of other ethnicities and religions.  That

14     could be expected because it was a multiethnic community and such

15     tensions were there before, and unfortunately are still present now.

16        Q.   Thank you.  This position about providing protection to the

17     released, how does it stand in relation to the position of the

18     authorities with regard to treating these individuals?

19        A.   Well, based on the documents shown to me, the authorities have

20     shown to be in favour of complying with the law, the minister of the

21     interior sending this letter.  That's to say, in my own work I always

22     advocated the position that the individuals who did not engage in

23     unlawful activity and in respect of whom there is no interesting

24     intelligence should be released and be free to go about their lives.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 46148

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark the first page of this document for

 3     identification pending English translation.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D4256, Your Honours.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   A moment ago, Witness, you told us that there were individual

 8     cases of people being released on occasion and that Drljaca forbade

 9     people from being released without him knowing about it.  Was it the case

10     that he banned this on condition that he be informed or that he banned it

11     in general?

12        A.   Well, as far as I know, it was about him asking that nobody

13     should be released from the investigation centre unless he was informed

14     about it.

15        Q.   To your knowledge, was Mr. Drljaca a member of the Crisis Staff

16     by virtue of his office?

17        A.   That should have been case.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the witness be briefly shown

19     P2741, which the Prosecution cited.  Can we direct our attention to

20     item 5.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   It says:

23             "Following the appropriate procedure on the part of the competent

24     organs, the other prisoners found to be innocent would be released from

25     detention."

Page 46149

 1             So how does this accord with your experience about this case?

 2        A.   Well, this accords with what I said, that we had the intention of

 3     releasing such individuals, according them freedom of movement.  And that

 4     was our position from the very start, from the early days of the

 5     investigation centre.

 6        Q.   Can I direct your attention to the heading.  It is a document of

 7     the Crisis Staff dated 2nd of June, 1992; right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  At page 11, we have D03752.  A promise is made --

10     this is the 16th of August.  A promise is made that the rest of the

11     documentation will be sent in a week's time.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown D1866.

13     That date was the 17th, and now this is the 23rd of August.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   It reads:

16             "We are hereby informing you that documentation is required

17     concerning the prisoners of war who have been transferred from the

18     Omarska investigation centre" -- or rather, "that the required

19     documentation concerning the prisoners of war who had been transferred

20     from the Omarska investigation centre to the Manjaca prisoner of war camp

21     was forwarded to the commander ..."

22             So was the promise made on the 17th made good on, and was the

23     delay deliberate or was, indeed, some time required for the documentation

24     to be transferred?

25        A.   Well, I think that because of the volume of documentation, the

Page 46150

 1     processing did take some time, hence the date.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  My last question:  At page 9, you were told that it

 3     was observed in Manjaca that among the prisoners there were those who

 4     were unfit to hold a rifle, let alone run.  You were asked about

 5     category 2.  Can you tell us, was it possible for those who were unfit to

 6     hold a rifle to commit criminal offences against general security and

 7     safety, the state, and the constitution?  I'm referring to the

 8     individuals from category 2.

 9        A.   Well, I know of one case and I know the person myself.  He was

10     taken in, even though he was more than 65 years old.  He had two

11     hand-grenades that he got from a relative and that was the reason why he

12     was brought in.  I don't know of any other cases.

13        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Witness.  I have no further questions.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  While the witnesses here with us, the

15     Chamber wishes to return to the issue raised yesterday in relation to the

16     admission of 1D9645, 1D9646, 1D9647, and 1D9649, discussed during the

17     testimony of this witness.  These four documents are Official Notes or

18     compilations thereof from 1992.

19             The Chamber has reviewed the examples referred to by the

20     Prosecution yesterday and wishes to remind the parties of its oral ruling

21     of the 11th of December, 2012, in which it clarified the Chamber's

22     position on the admission of third party statements.  The Chamber noted

23     that third party statements produced for the purpose of current criminal

24     proceedings may only be admitted pursuant to the modalities of

25     Rule 92 bis, 92 quater, and 92 quinquies and that in relation to any

Page 46151

 1     other third party statement not prepared for the purpose of current

 2     criminal proceedings, they may only be admitted if they are comment upon,

 3     confirmed, or adopted by the witness on the stand.  The Chamber made

 4     further application of this ruling on the 13th of March, 2013, in

 5     relation to 65 ter 1D7846 and 65 ter 1D855.

 6             The four documents discussed yesterday fall into the category of

 7     documents not prepared for the purpose of criminal proceedings and may,

 8     therefore, be admitted if they are sufficiently comment upon, confirmed,

 9     or adopted by the witness on the stand.

10             The Chamber is of the view that 1D9646 and 1D9647 have not been

11     sufficiently commented by the witness in the previous proceedings for the

12     purpose of admission.  However, the Chamber considers that the witness's

13     comments on 1D9645 and 1D9649 are sufficient for the purpose of admission

14     of these type of documents as associated exhibits.

15             We'll assign exhibit numbers for the last two documents.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour, 1D9649 will be Exhibit D4257.

17     And 1D9645 will be Exhibit D4258.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  That concludes your evidence,

19     Mr. Witness.  On behalf of the Chamber, I would like to thank you for

20     your coming to The Hague to give it.  Now you are free to go.

21             Given the timing, the Chamber will take a break now.  You will

22     rise all together with us.  We'll break for half an hour and resume at

23     quarter to 11.00.

24                           --- Recess taken at 10.16 a.m.

25                           [The witness withdrew]

Page 46152

 1                           --- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, you requested six hours for the

 3     cross-examination of Witness Mico Stanisic.  But before that, I was

 4     wondering whether this witness should be led live in light of our

 5     practice?  Mr. Stanisic refused to testify voluntarily and was therefore

 6     subpoenaed.  The important witnesses in a similar situation were ordered

 7     to testify viva voce, weren't they?

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, there have been instances

 9     where -- where these witnesses have been -- have been ordered to testify

10     viva voce, particularly if they were close to Dr. Karadzic.  In this

11     case, Mr. Stanisic co-operated with us and I worked with him personally

12     to try to make what I thought was a very clear, cogent statement.  And we

13     believed that it would be better if that statement were used as a 92 ter.

14     And given the amount of time that the Prosecution has asked for

15     cross-examination, they should have plenty of opportunity to decide on

16     his credibility without having to have us lead him live.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Given his position and the proximity with the

18     accused, it would be consistent the Chamber should order him to testify

19     viva voce.

20             Mr. Tieger, do you have any observation on this?

21             MR. TIEGER:  No, Mr. President.  And I was scouring my memory to

22     recall if any failure on the Prosecution's part to make a motion similar

23     to ones it did in the past was the result of inertia or a sense that the

24     Trial Chamber would intervene on its own or desire not to raise the issue

25     on too many individual occasions.  Nevertheless, I -- I can't identify at

Page 46153

 1     the moment a distinction between the witnesses for whom viva voce

 2     testimony was required based on their positions at the time and

 3     Mr. Stanisic and his position.  But I did send an e-mail to see if there

 4     was something in particular that I might be missing.  In any event, I

 5     think the Court's point appears to be well taken.

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, if I could add one more thing.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, can you also take into

 9     consideration that this is very late in the day, both in terms of

10     proximity to the time of his testimony and to the close of our case.  So,

11     first of all, we invested a lot of time in preparing this statement which

12     we wouldn't have done if we'd known that he was to be viva voce.  But,

13     more importantly, between now and the end of the case, we are trying very

14     much to use every available moment to help prepare Dr. Karadzic's

15     testimony.  And to now have to have him prepare to lead Mr. Stanisic live

16     will take away from that and make us less ready to begin his testimony

17     when that time comes, which is rapidly approaching.  So I hope you can

18     take that into consideration as well.  Again, I think this is a very

19     clear, focused statement by this witness and you would not be losing

20     anything by having his testimony under 92 ter.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

22             MR. TIEGER:  Well, since we're engaged in this discussion, simply

23     to note that I'm not sure that necessarily follows.  It would appear that

24     the time that Mr. Robinson is referring to that was, according to him,

25     invested in the preparation of the statement, is a -- lays the groundwork

Page 46154

 1     for either the submission of that statement, or, as the Court is now

 2     indicating, would be more beneficial to the Court leading the witness

 3     live.  I mean, it appears that the prep work has essentially been done

 4     one way or another.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber will consider this issue and will give

 6     its ruling during the course of today or first thing tomorrow.

 7             Yes.  Shall we bring in the next witness.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, while we're doing that, I've been

 9     asked to advise you that we do now have the translation of Exhibit D4255

10     in e-court under 65 ter number 18418.  And we would ask that the status

11     of that exhibit be confirmed as a full exhibit as opposed to MFI.

12             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry, are we talking about 4255 or 4256?

13             MR. ROBINSON:  4255.

14             JUDGE KWON:  We admitted in full because we had English only.  So

15     you found the original?

16             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.  We found the B/C/S, yes.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll supplement it.

18                           [The witness entered court]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, sir.  Do you hear me in the language

20     you understand?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Will you make the solemn declaration.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

24     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25                           WITNESS:  DUSKO JAKSIC

Page 46155

 1                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Jaksic.  Please be seated and make

 3     yourself comfortable.

 4             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.  Please proceed.

 5                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Professor Jaksic.

 7        A.   Good morning, Mr. President.

 8        Q.   Like with anyone who speaks our language, I have to ask you to

 9     leave a short pause between questions and answers and to speak slowly so

10     that everything is properly recorded.

11        A.   I understand.

12        Q.   Professor, have you given a statement to my Defence team?

13        A.   Yes, I have given them a statement and signed it.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 1D49063

15     in e-court, please.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Do you see before you that statement?  I will explain these

18     blanks.  Is this the first page of the statement?

19        A.   Yes, it is.

20        Q.   Do not be confused by the fact that several paragraphs are

21     blacked out.  The Chamber found them to be of no assistance because they

22     are related to events in Croatia, not Bosnia.  Have you signed this

23     statement?

24        A.   Yes, I have.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the last page be shown,

Page 46156

 1     please, so that the witness may identify his signature.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is my signature.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Does this statement faithfully and accurately reflect

 5     what you have said to my Defence team?

 6        A.   Completely faithfully.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to put to you the same questions that were

 8     asked when the statement was taken, would your answers be essentially the

 9     same as in the statement?

10        A.   I would not change the answers.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tender this statement under

13     Rule 92 ter, with the accompanying documents.

14             JUDGE KWON:  We'll deal with associated exhibit separately.

15             Mr. Zec, do you have any objection to the admission of this

16     statement?

17             MR ZEC:  No, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE KWON:  We'll receive it.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D4259, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we come to the exhibits?

21             Mr. Robinson, if you could assist us.

22             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, we are offering nine

23     associated exhibits; eight to be admitted and one to be marked for

24     identification as it's an intercept not involving this witness.

25             JUDGE KWON:  So you are not tendering 1D7073 which has been

Page 46157

 1     already admitted?

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  Correct.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Zec, any objections?

 4             MR ZEC:  We already informed the Defence that we'll be objecting

 5     to admission to six of the exhibits because we believe they don't

 6     consist -- they don't form part -- indispensable and inseparable part of

 7     the statement.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Could you identify the numbers.

 9             MR ZEC:  So 1D07072 through 1 -- next is 1D07074 through 1D07077.

10     And 65 ter 051 -- 414.  The last one should be 65 ter 05414.

11             JUDGE KWON:  We agree with you as regards 1D7072, 1D7074, and

12     1D7077.  However, the Chamber is of the view as regards the remaining

13     three - i.e., 1D7075, 7076, and 65 ter 5414 - that they satisfy the

14     requirements for associated exhibit.  But with respect to the last one,

15     65 ter 5414, we'll admit only those pages referred to in the statement.

16             So we'll receive the remaining four documents and we'll mark it

17     for identification pending the authentication, I mean, the intercept.

18                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, the intercept we'll mark for identification is

20     30514.  The exhibit numbers will be given in due course by the Registrar

21     in writing.

22             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to lead one of these

24     documents live, one of those that were not covered by the statement by

25     the live evidence.  And now I would like, first of all, to read a short

Page 46158

 1     summary of Mr. Dusko Jaksic's statement.

 2             [In English] Dusko Jaksic was born on 7th of June, 1935, in

 3     Celinac, Republika Srpska.  From 1992 to 1995, Dusko Jaksic was the

 4     director of the Institute of Economics in Banja Luka, also known as EIBL.

 5     He was also an assemblyman of the socialist party SDP in the Municipal

 6     Assembly of Banja Luka.  In 2009, Dusko Jaksic became a senator for the

 7     Republika Srpska and was later appointed as an advisor in 2011.

 8             Issue arose as Banja Luka could not influence its own development

 9     or that of its surrounding area.  This was due to the centralisation of

10     all funds, financial institutions, and capital in SarajevoBanja Luka

11     and East Bosnia and Herzegovina were therefore economically behind

12     compared to the Sarajevo-Zenica region.  Dusko Jaksic frequently tried to

13     prove how disastrous this policy was.

14             Dusko Jaksic advocated that Krajina be an independent state

15     should Yugoslavia separate.  A draft statute was created by Dusko Jaksic

16     and Predrag Radic, the mayor of Banja Luka, to this effect.  In addition,

17     a document outlining the regional organisation of Bosnia and Herzegovina

18     and the creation of a north-west Krajina region was also drafted.

19     Despite many people disagreeing and the constant obstruction by the

20     Sarajevo politics, a prominent Muslim leader like Mr. Osman Karabegovic

21     gave absolute support to Dusko Jaksic's proposals.  The creation of

22     region was not intended to breakup Bosnia and Herzegovina but instead

23     strengthen it and set an example for Yugoslavia.  Around June 1991,

24     Dusko Jaksic and Milorad Zivanovic drafted and proclaimed the

25     constitution of the Republic of Krajina.  This constitution was signed at

Page 46159

 1     a meeting in Banski Dvor in Banja Luka.

 2             Due to the rumours that Krajina would be used for political

 3     bargaining and fears that this would lead to an exodus of the population,

 4     Dusko Jaksic went to Belgrade to inform Slobodan Milosevic of their

 5     concerns.  Upon his arrival, Dusko Jaksic met Dr. Radovan Karadzic.

 6     Radovan Karadzic's lack of curiosity regarding Dusko Jaksic's arrival in

 7     Belgrade illustrated the two Serbian political currents and the tense

 8     relations between Republika Srpska and Krajina leadership.  At the

 9     beginning of the war in 1992, Krajina lost contact with the rest of

10     Republika Srpska in BH.

11             And that will be short summary of his statement.  Now I would

12     like to pose a few questions to Professor Jaksic.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Professor, can you tell us how other ethnic communities in

15     Banja Luka viewed the centralisation of funds and especially this

16     decision contained in the document 1D7077 when you asked for these funds

17     to remain in Banja Luka?

18        A.   All the way up to the referendum of the independence of

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina, all ethnic communities and all structures and

20     academic circles were absolutely unanimous that a higher degree of

21     independence and autonomy of Krajina is necessary.  The processes that

22     took place between the 1980s and 1990s were total, so all the companies

23     in Krajina were just branch offices of companies that had headquarters in

24     Sarajevo.  In that sense, there was no disagreement between Serbs,

25     Croats, and Muslims.  The director was a Croat and he supported me

Page 46160

 1     absolutely, not only as somebody who had more academic experience but he

 2     supported me in a broader sense in my efforts to achieve that higher

 3     degree of independence.

 4        Q.   Can I ask you to speak more slowly because we will have problems.

 5     Already we are missing one thing.  You said that centralisation favoured

 6     central companies in Sarajevo.

 7        A.   I'll give you one example.  In 1969 --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Sorry, sorry.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- Banja Luka experienced an

10     earthquake.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Just is a second, Mr. Jaksic.  If you want to say

12     something after Mr. Karadzic's words, please give us some pause because

13     both Mr. Karadzic's words and your words have to be translated.

14             Yes, could you repeat.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One example, in

16     1960 [as interpreted], the city of Banja Luka experienced a destructive

17     earthquake, seven degrees by Richter.  At the level of Yugoslavia, a

18     major fund was created to reconstruct Banja Luka.  That fund was not

19     located in Banja Luka as an institution, it was based in Sarajevo, and

20     the administration of Banja Luka and the broader area that was affected

21     could not make any decisions for the purposeful use of these funds.  From

22     that moment on, the centralisation of all the other types in the economy

23     and the public sector was only accelerated.  There remained only one

24     bank, the Privredna banka of Sarajevo with its branch offices in the

25     republic.  All the major companies, industrial enterprises, were based in

Page 46161

 1     Sarajevo, and all the way up to 1975, the only university was in

 2     Sarajevo.  I wouldn't go into much detail, but the consequence of that is

 3     that Krajina began to be drained demographically very quickly, and the

 4     same goes for the eastern Bosnia as a whole.

 5             There was one form of economic association, that was the chamber

 6     of commerce.  In Banja Luka, the chamber of commerce covered

 7     17 municipalities, 16 municipalities had a lower than replacement

 8     birthrate, and only one municipality had a positive birthrate.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   It was said about Banja Luka that it had only a symbolically

11     positive birthrate.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Witness confirms.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Thank you, Professor.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D7077 is the document I would now

16     like to call up in e-court.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Please look at this.  This is a short record from the

19     13th session of the Assembly of Banja Luka municipality held on

20     27 November 1991, which was just two or three months before the war broke

21     out.  On the first page, Professor, is it the case that we see that it

22     was a joint session, a session of the joint assembly, representing all

23     ethnic communities and all parties?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   There were 99 people present.

Page 46162

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we show page 9 in Serbian and

 2     page 15 in English, and then we will look at page 16.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Help us here, Professor, with the conclusions.  Many people took

 5     part in the debate including Muslims.  You were a representative of the

 6     socialist party; Ganic represented the SDA; Turkanovic [phoen] SDA;

 7     Mormerovic [phoen] SDA, and so on.  Look at conclusion number 3.  It

 8     deals with the preparation of a proposal to suspend allocation of funds

 9     from Banja Luka municipality for the activities at the level of the

10     republic enumerated above and instead keep those funds in Banja Luka.

11     Was this justified economically, and who voted in favour of this

12     conclusion?

13        A.   I cannot describe the climate that prevailed at the time, but

14     what I do know is that there was no resistance to such a conclusion being

15     adopted along the ethnic lines.  I have to emphasise that a year or a

16     year and a half prior to this, the only bank in Bosnia-Herzegovina which

17     detached itself from the system of banks in Sarajevo covering all the

18     banks in Bosnia was Privredna banka Banja Luka, which got detached from

19     Privredna banka Sarajevo.  So in Bosnia we had the Privredna banka

20     Sarajevo which had its branch offices in 108 municipalities in

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina; whereas only Banja Luka had its own Privredna banka

22     with a Croat as its CEO.  And that was the start of this process of

23     resistance to the centralisation of Sarajevo.  And this is just a similar

24     example to one that I've given about the bank.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Was this a detachment of the bank economically

Page 46163

 1     motivated or ethnically motivated?

 2        A.   Well, I did say that the director was a Croat,

 3     Goran Pegan [phoen], and he was the one who was the greatest of advocates

 4     for this decentralisation.  He had great political opponents, but I think

 5     that the Serbs were among the majority of his supporters.

 6        Q.   It reads here that the report was unanimously adopted.  Was this

 7     indeed the case, do you recall?

 8        A.   Well, I can't say with any certainty whether it was unanimously

 9     adopted, though I have no reason to doubt the veracity of the minutes.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like the tender the

11     document into evidence.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Any objection, Mr. Zec?

13             MR ZEC:  The witness didn't confirm anything.  And secondly, I

14     don't see relevance.  But I leave it to the Chamber.

15             JUDGE KWON:  I think we now have a basis to admit it.  We'll

16     receive it.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D4260, Your Honours.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Another question or just one more question, Professor.  What was

20     the position and what was the professional and political view of your

21     colleagues from the international community with regard to the process of

22     regionalisation in Bosnia-Herzegovina prior to and especially after the

23     Dayton, if you know what these positions were?

24        A.   If I may, I would like to make two points about the events in the

25     former state.  Just as all the other eastern countries, Yugoslavia

Page 46164

 1     started the process of transition in terms of its political and economic

 2     systems.  The transition had three pillars:  The first pillar was the

 3     introduction of a multiparty system and parliamentary democracy; the

 4     second pillar was the privatisation of the state capital, i.e.,

 5     companies; and the third pillar was the decentralisation and the

 6     strengthening of the role of the local government with a special emphasis

 7     on regionalisation.  Six agencies were set up at the level of Yugoslavia

 8     in the respect of the six republics which were supposed to implement the

 9     transition process.  Five agencies were based in five capitals of the

10     republics.  It was only in Bosnia-Herzegovina that the agency was not

11     based in Sarajevo but rather in Banja Luka.  It was entrusted with the

12     Institute of Economics in Banja Luka and I was its director.  This was

13     during Rade Markovic's government, and the decision was made to base the

14     agency not in Sarajevo but with the institute in Banja Luka because the

15     feeling was that Sarajevo was not ready to carry out this task because

16     the Sarajevo institutions and agencies would not support it.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18        A.   There is one more detail, if I may.  Why was this entrusted with

19     the institute?  This was the only institute in the former Yugoslavia

20     which affirmed itself and gained a high reputation and was not based in a

21     capital of a republic.  It was often cited as a role model for other

22     agencies which should likewise get developed without being under the

23     influence of central republican authorities.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us was this before the multiparty

25     elections?

Page 46165

 1        A.   Well, the transition process began in 1989.  We got this status

 2     in 1990.  I think it coincided with the beginning of the election

 3     campaign or just before that.

 4        Q.   In what way did the authorities in Sarajevo reform themselves in

 5     this process of decentralisation, or did they remain as rigid as they

 6     were before?

 7        A.   Well, these authorities tried and managed, not at the very start

 8     but later on, to halt the transition process or to slow it down.

 9        Q.   And after the war, your colleagues from your profession and your

10     international colleagues, did they have any specific suggestions to make

11     as to how this should be done and did they accord with your own views?

12        A.   We had a project of the reconstruction of Bosnia-Herzegovina

13     covering the period between 1996 and 2002.  According to the official

14     documentation, it involved the sum of some 5.5 billion dollars.  Numerous

15     projects were implemented covering refugees all the way to privatisation

16     according to a new model.  Between 2003 and 2005 the European commission

17     engaged two institutions, one from Northern Ireland and another from

18     Italy, to develop a project which aimed at setting up the regional

19     organisation of Bosnia-Herzegovina with an emphasis on economic regions.

20     However, the latter was supposed to be designed in such a way as not to

21     in any way impair the entities of the federation and Republika Srpska.

22     And this sort of approach had the undivided support of the

23     representatives of the federation, particularly the Bosniak side, but it

24     was rejected by Republika Srpska despite the fact that to a large degree

25     over 90 per cent the project would have created the regions in the same

Page 46166

 1     way as we had suggested that it be done in 1991.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can 1D49064 be shown to the

 4     witness.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   While we're waiting for this, Professor, had your proposal for

 7     the regionalisation of Bosnia-Herzegovina and ours been accepted before

 8     the referendum in Bosnia-Herzegovina, how would the situation have

 9     unfolded?  Would there have been a war?

10        A.   I was called here in the capacity of a witness, and I accepted

11     that role for several reasons, as a fact witness.  However, if I were to

12     look at the documents and the various situations which I thought were

13     important enough for me to appear before this Court, then I would have to

14     mention the regionalisation project and everything that was happening

15     around it, and I don't think it will be a waste of time if I mention the

16     last session of the Bosnia-Herzegovina Assembly.

17             There is one document, and I have it here, about it.  The session

18     lasted late into the night until 1.30 in the morning.  This was a

19     document entitled:  "Conditions and Possibilities for the Introduction of

20     a Regional Structure of Bosnia-Herzegovina and Creating the Region of

21     North-western Bosnia, Project and Tasks," which was drafted by the

22     Institute of Economics.  So this was a project which had yet to be

23     developed by someone.  The date is March 1991.

24        Q.   Sir, can you tell us what it is that we are looking at on our

25     screens?

Page 46167

 1        A.   What we see on the screen is the front page of the document that

 2     I've mentioned.  We see the title of the project -- on the right-hand

 3     side, we see the title of the project which was produced in 2004 by those

 4     two agencies that I mentioned.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page.

 6        Q.   The title is the same:  Regional strategy of the regional

 7     development of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  And I'm referring to the title of the

 8     project that was commissioned by the European commission; is that right?

 9        A.   Yes.  It's called the EURED project.  You can see the original

10     logo here.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us what this map represents?

12        A.   It represents a proposal of dividing Bosnia-Herzegovina into five

13     regions.  One of them is Krajina, and that's the left-hand side of the

14     map.  It's, in fact, north-western Bosnia.  And the only difference

15     between this project and our initial project is in the municipality of

16     Teslic, which here is added to the Central Bosnia region; whereas, we

17     thought it should be part of the Krajina.  Therefore, the scope of this

18     region is the same except for Teslic.  The remainder was supposed to be

19     four regions, whereas in our initial document we envisaged three rather

20     than four regions.

21             The institute and I, myself, are very well familiar with the

22     process of creating regions normally applied in the European Union, and

23     everything we did was, in fact, in compliance with the standards of the

24     European Union.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us this:  Did the SDS or the political

Page 46168

 1     circles in general interfere with what you were doing, trying to exert

 2     some sort of pressure, or was this done solely according to the economic

 3     principles?

 4        A.   Well, this was done in 1989, 1990, when the general public was

 5     not informed of this at all -- or rather, the professional circles were

 6     very familiar with these efforts at regionalisation.  Now, with the

 7     arrival of the SDS and other parties on to the scene, the

 8     already-existing climate was seized upon because it was a good basis for

 9     organising the economy in quite concrete terms in what were time of

10     confusion, in fact.  Let me repeat:  Had we not been as prepared as we

11     were and had there not been this view been taken in respect of the

12     regions, had this preparatory work not been done, I wonder what life and

13     the economy would have been like had the war broken out without all this

14     having been done previously.

15             Many professional and economic circles joined these efforts

16     because they thought that regions, per se, were a justified form of

17     economic organisation.  Had this not been the case, other less competent

18     individuals and institutions would have come to the fore and the

19     situation would have been far worse.

20        Q.   In line 16 and 17, can this be corrected?  The witness said:  It

21     was done in 1989, 1990, and it was general knowledge and very much known

22     to the public rather than:  It was not known.  And this was at a time

23     when the SDS was not formed.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may add something.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 46169

 1        Q.   Yes.

 2        A.   The Institute of Economics in Sarajevo, one of the two such

 3     institutes in Bosnia-Herzegovina, in the period between 1986 and 1990

 4     implemented eight projects which had to do with the regionalisation which

 5     had been given by the scientific fund which I headed for a while.  You

 6     have them in this material.  They were all listed there according to the

 7     various topics that they covered.

 8        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Professor.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  I think I have to clarify this with

11     you, Mr. Jaksic.  It's about our transcript, whether it's recorded

12     correctly.

13             To the question of Mr. Karadzic whether SDS or the political

14     circles in general interfere with what you were doing, trying to exert

15     some sort of pressure, or was this done solely according to the economic

16     principles.  Your answer was recorded like this, I quote:

17             "Well, this was done in 1989, 1990, when the general public was

18     not informed of this at all.  Or rather, the professional circles were

19     very familiar with --"

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the contrary.

21             JUDGE KWON:  -- "these ..."

22             So did you say that the general public was informed of this?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that the general public was

24     well informed, very well informed, as a matter of fact.  And that had to

25     do with regionalisation until 1990 --

Page 46170

 1             JUDGE KWON:  [Overlapping speakers]

 2             THE WITNESS:  [No interpretation]

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters did not hear the last

 4     sentence.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I was a member of the SDP and I was

 6     a member of parliament for the SDP.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  That's sufficient for your answer.

 8     Shall we mark it, this document for identification.

 9             Mr. Zec, do you have any observation or objection.

10             MR ZEC:  Again, it's about relevance but I'll leave it to the

11     Court.

12             JUDGE KWON:  It's related to the regionalisation issued in one

13     way or another, so, as such, it may be relevant to a certain extent.

14     We'll mark it for identification.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D4267, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE KWON:  4267.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just one.  In line 11, it was not

18     recorded that the witness said that the SDS did not have anything to do

19     with regionalisation.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Absolutely.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I have no further

23     questions at this point in time.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Jaksic, as you have noted, your evidence in

25     chief in this case has been admitted in its most part in writing; that

Page 46171

 1     is, through your written witness statement in lieu of your oral

 2     testimony.  Now you will be cross-examined by the representative of the

 3     Office of the Prosecutor.

 4             Yes, Mr. Zec, please proceed.

 5             MR ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 6                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zec:

 7        Q.   Good morning to you, Mr. Jaksic.

 8        A.   [In English] Good morning.

 9        Q.   Mr. Jaksic, you told us in your statement about your political

10     background.  Can you confirm that you have never been a member of the

11     SDS?

12        A.   [Interpretation] I was never a member of the SDS.  I did not

13     attend a single SDS meeting.

14        Q.   And you were not privy to internal SDS communications, that's

15     also correct?

16        A.   A few colleagues of mine from school, from high school, that will

17     be of great interest to you.  Dr. Nikola Koljevic and I went to the same

18     high school together for eight years.  We're the same year, the same

19     generation.  Dr. Milovan Milovanovic, who was vice-president of the

20     Assembly SDS, also went to the same class with me for eight years.

21     Dr. Bozo Bojanic, who is a lawyer, one of the founders of the SDS in

22     Banja Luka, is also my year.  So for a man who lived in Banja Luka from

23     elementary school until the end of high school and started university,

24     you could not expect such a person not to have been in contact with

25     persons who belonged to the SDS.  However, these were just informal

Page 46172

 1     contacts and of course certain discussions that were inevitable.

 2        Q.   And in paragraph 16 through 27, you talk about the union of

 3     Bosanska Krajina municipalities.  When this was created back in

 4     April 1991, Mr. Jaksic, other political parties - mainly, HDZ and SDA -

 5     were against this regional body because they saw it as an entity which

 6     was dominated by one ethnic group; right?

 7        A.   That is right.  That is right.

 8        Q.   [Overlapping speakers]

 9        A.   The -- it was established after the recognition of

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina and then the SDS, and not only the SDS, but the entire

11     population, took advantage of what had been done in terms of

12     regionalisation; that is to say, it was turned into this community of

13     municipalities.  And all of these --

14        Q.   Let's have a look at one article at that time and then I'll ask

15     you more.

16             MR ZEC:  Can we have 65 ter 25939.

17        Q.   And this is an article from "Oslobodjenje" from April 1991, which

18     talks about the creation of the union assembly of the Bosnia Krajina

19     municipalities.

20             MR ZEC:  At English e-court page 7, and in the B/C/S it's toward

21     the end of the page on the left side.

22        Q.   There are comments made by Stjepan Kljuic from the HDZ, and he

23     said:

24             "What has been created, in short, is unconstitutional and I'm

25     sure it will not be able to exist."

Page 46173

 1             And below that, Muhamed Cengic from SDA said:

 2             "This was done behind the backs of others."

 3             He said:

 4             "Obviously they are trying to create a state within a state."

 5             And then he continues:

 6             "Economic reasons for the association are a long way from the

 7     truth.  These are primarily political reasons with a goal of creating a

 8     state for only one nation."

 9             So, Mr. Jaksic, this was the position of other political parties

10     with respect to the union of Bosanska Krajina municipalities - right? -

11     at the time?

12        A.   That is quite right.  At that time that was quite right.

13             MR ZEC:  Mr. President, I would offer this article.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson, any objections?

15             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll receive this.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6615, Your Honours.

18             MR ZEC:

19        Q.   Mr. Jaksic, the idea of the Krajina region, or the ARK as it was

20     called later on, was something that SDS planned and implemented; right?

21        A.   I don't think so.  I don't think that that statement is right.

22     The SDS only accepted the results and what had been achieved over two or

23     three years before that in terms of creating a territorial form as we had

24     envisaged the Krajina region.  They had received a good basis for

25     organisation.  Of course, after the recognition of Bosnia as an

Page 46174

 1     independent state, that was an attempt made by the SDS to remain in

 2     Yugoslavia and to separate in that way.  All of us from the regions

 3     supported that because we thought that by establishing a region with

 4     certain elements of statehood, we would have a chance of remaining in

 5     Yugoslavia.  So that was not the first objective for us to get a state of

 6     Krajina.  Rather, to get a Krajina - I'm talking about Krajina now - in

 7     order to remain in Yugoslavia in that way.  Had we known that there would

 8     have been no Yugoslavia, then our --

 9        Q.   This Chamber has received evidence regarding this issue.

10     Mr. Karadzic acknowledged that the idea of regionalisation originated

11     from him and the SDS.  This is in P2556 and P6243, English page 25, B/C/S

12     e-court page 29.  Mr. Kupresanin said at the 20th Assembly that the

13     purpose of the region of Krajina was to destroy Alija's state.  This is

14     in D456, English page 70, B/C/S e-court page 76.

15             So, Mr. Jaksic, the fact is that the idea of the Krajina region

16     was something that the SDS planned and implemented; right?

17        A.   That's certainly not right.  That's not right.  Mr. Kupresanin,

18     whom I had not known until then, and the others, used all of the

19     materials of the economic institute, and they invited us - they invited

20     us - to interpret that, what a region means, what that means, what it is

21     economically, politically, so they used that to a large degree.  They are

22     founders.  They are the ones who implemented that in terms of

23     establishing bodies.  However, as initiators in terms of creating this

24     form, they had inherited something that was alive before that.

25        Q.   In paragraphs 18, 34, 35, and 36, you talk about your idea of

Page 46175

 1     creating a Krajina state as a separate unit of Yugoslavia.  This idea,

 2     Mr. Jaksic, was something that SDS did not like and did not want to

 3     happen.  From this moment, the SDS saw you and the others who were behind

 4     this idea as someone who wanted to separate, to separate Krajina from

 5     other Serb areas and jeopardise the unity of Serbian people; right?

 6        A.   There were major differences.  However, you have to know that the

 7     Krajina was isolated for a while, totally isolated from Yugoslavia, the

 8     eastern part of Bosnia, too.  We who lived there and who had strong links

 9     with the Serbs in the Krajina and Croatia, we had a large number of

10     refugees in our area from Croatia.  And isolated in such a way, we saw as

11     our only solution -- yes?

12        Q.   I understand you want to explain why you were behind this idea,

13     but my question was that the SDS was against the idea that you were about

14     to explain; that's correct, right?

15        A.   The SDS was not -- of course, they were against these two lines

16     that existed.  We did not negate Republika Srpska at the time.  However,

17     on the condition -- I mean, if it would not manage to remain in

18     Yugoslavia, then we wanted to secure for ourselves a position which would

19     mean that we would stay in Yugoslavia.  How do I put this?  Politically,

20     we were rather passive.  We did not interfere in military affairs.  We

21     did not meddle in any way.  We simply tried to organise the life of

22     people there.  There was a division among people but it was not very

23     pronounced.

24             MR. ZEC:  Let's have a look at 65 ter 25410.

25        Q.   And this is an article of an interview that you gave in 1992.

Page 46176

 1     And the article was published in a newspaper called "Lider."  I would

 2     like you to look at the page --

 3             MR. ZEC:  Maybe we also can have a look at the second page for

 4     the witness to just recognise the -- see the articles and acknowledge

 5     that that's his interview.

 6        Q.   So at the top it says -- it has your name.

 7             MR ZEC:  Second page in B/C/S.

 8        Q.   Your -- your photo is there.  Do you remember this article --

 9     this interview?

10        A.   I remember that interview.  I have it here.

11             MR ZEC:  Can we go to English page 2.  In B/C/S, it should be

12     middle of the first page.

13        Q.   So here on this page, you -- that -- it's recorded, the act of

14     creation and proclamation of the Krajina state was exclusively seen as a

15     separatist act for which Bosanska Krajina would be separated from the

16     rest of the Serb ethnic areas in Bosnia named republic of Serbian people

17     in BiH which would, according to the Sarajevo SDS, jeopardise the unit of

18     the Serbian people in this republic.

19             And there is also a reference to the ARK Assembly of

20     29th February 1992, which is P5452 in this case, during which the idea of

21     the Krajina state was denied and rejected and the RS laws imposed.

22             So, Mr. Jaksic, the fact is that the SDS blocked your idea of the

23     Krajina state because it was against their plans of having Serb state in

24     Bosnia which would encompass all territories claimed as ethnic Serbs;

25     right?

Page 46177

 1        A.   That is correct.  That was that attempt of ours to establish this

 2     autonomous region of the Krajina that was blocked by the SDS.  However,

 3     the team that worked on this did not have any organised bodies; that is

 4     to say, there was no assembly, there were no committees.  This was a

 5     gathering of intellectuals working on that.  And through our actions, we

 6     wished to reinforce a belief, politically, and to make sure that the

 7     Krajina would not be involved in any trade-offs.  You know that there

 8     were a countless numbers of variants of the division of Bosnia.  Sorry, I

 9     know I'm speaking very fast.  There were many maps that were drawn and a

10     separation line often went through the Krajina, and it was not only with

11     the SDS but also with the army that we presented these ultimatums saying

12     that they could not trade with the Krajina or, rather, not have the

13     Krajina involved in any trade-offs.  And we tried to create institutions

14     and certain documents.

15             I'm going to tell you something now.  These --

16        Q.   Let's keep a little bit longer on this topic of Krajina state,

17     because your idea of the Krajina state was discussed at the SDS deputies

18     club meeting on 28 February 1992, during which many comments were made

19     about you, about Predrag Lazarevic, and about your idea of the Krajina

20     state.

21             MR ZEC:  If we can have P00938.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would kindly ask you that we stay

23     with this, if possible.  Can we stay with this.

24             MR ZEC:

25        Q.   Wait for my question, please.  I'm going to show you now what was

Page 46178

 1     said during this SDS meeting in February 1992 about --

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. --

 3             MR ZEC:

 4        Q.   -- this same idea.

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  Before we leave this document, we would ask that

 6     it be tendered.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  I think he will come back to this.

 8             MR ZEC:  I am finished with this exhibit and we can admit.  I

 9     didn't offer.  I thought it's too long.  And witness confirmed what I

10     said, but we can admit it.

11             JUDGE KWON:  How long was it, then?  It disappeared.

12             MR ZEC:  The article was, as I remember, in English 12 pages.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Why don't we admit the first page in B/C/S and the

14     first and second page in English.  And, if necessary, other parts can be

15     added depending upon the re-examination.

16             Yes, shall we assign a number.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6616, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue.

19             MR ZEC:  Thank you.

20             Can we have English page 34, B/C/S e-court page 50.

21        Q.   So, Mr. Jaksic, this is what SDS thought about your idea of the

22     Krajina state.  Here is Mr. Karadzic speaking.  He said:

23             "Those Lazarevic fellows, those stuffed peacocks to whom we have

24     made no promises because one can't promise them anything, those people to

25     whom we have opened doors, those communists who were serfs in 1945 and

Page 46179

 1     participated in the efforts to make Krajina and Banja Luka poor, now they

 2     are creeping out of some institutes and trying to be a power above the

 3     government.

 4             "The Serbian Democratic Party is in power there!"

 5             So this was the view of Mr. Karadzic with respect to you,

 6     Mr. Lazarevic, and your idea of the Krajina state; right?

 7        A.   I'm going to answer and this really can explain a lot in this

 8     case.  You see, the SDS won the elections in the Krajina.  Most of the

 9     Serbs there voted for the SDS because they were the most numerous there.

10     When Republika Srpska was created, the Serb Republic of

11     Bosnia-Herzegovina, the leadership of the SDS had to leave Sarajevo and

12     go to Pale.  A great intellectual elite of Sarajevo left Sarajevo with

13     them and went to Pale.  This is very important.

14        Q.   Can I clarify, when you say they left to Pale, what period are

15     you talking about?  We are here talking about February 1992.

16        A.   This does have to do with February and also what happened

17     beforehand in Banja Luka.

18        Q.   [Overlapping speakers]

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Both speakers are speaking

20     at the same time so it's impossible to interpret into any language.

21             MR ZEC:

22        Q.   I'm sorry for interrupting you.  I'm trying to keep some way that

23     we can follow your evidence.  So we won't go now to period of war and

24     later.  Let's keep with this.  Let's talk about --

25             JUDGE KWON:  Let me see.

Page 46180

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an objection regarding the

 2     transcript.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 4             Sir, did you complete your answer with respect to this part of

 5     Mr. Karadzic's intervention?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not.  Please, I would like to

 7     say a very important thing.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Jaksic, if you could speak very slowly.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can.  In Banja Luka, leading

10     intellectuals, artists, they all the remained in Banja Luka during the

11     war and after the war.  Had they been compelled to leave Banja Luka to go

12     to a smaller place in the Krajina, that would be Knezevo, for example,

13     that is what Pale is to Sarajevo.  This movement would have been a lot

14     more compact in the Krajina than it actually had been.  This elite that

15     is mentioned by Dr. Karadzic in this transcript, this Banja Luka elite,

16     along with the epithets that you referred to, is equally patriotic but it

17     was not politically organised.  And they strove only to preserve the

18     population in the Krajina.  That's the only thing that they had in mind.

19     The policy of the SDS was a lot more complex and in a far bigger

20     territory.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I leave it to you Mr. Zec.

22             Mr. Zec wanted to remind you that this was in February 1992.

23             Please continue, Mr. Zec.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript, please.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 46181

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In line 18, it was not recorded.

 2     The witness was interrupted when he said that a great Serb intellectual

 3     elite left Sarajevo and went to Pale.  That explains the rest of his

 4     statement.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I think it can be read that way as it is now.

 6     But let's continue.

 7             MR ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8        Q.   In paragraph 12, you discuss the influence of Serb leaders on the

 9     Bosnian Krajina.  You say that Jovan Raskovic gave the SDS in Krajina

10     stronger foundations than Karadzic.  Are you saying that Mr. Raskovic was

11     more influential than Karadzic in the SDS in the Bosnian Krajina?

12        A.   I cannot -- well, I think that at first, yes.  At first, yes.

13     But that went on for a little while, and then after 1991

14     Professor Raskovic withdrew and then the role of the SDS was dominant

15     with the team that was in Sarajevo.

16             MR. ZEC:  Let's have a look at 65 ter 11996, which is an article

17     from January 1991.  I'm sorry, the article is from January 1992.  At

18     English page 2; B/C/S should be the third column.  In the B/C/S, it's

19     third column from second line.

20        Q.   And this is what Jovan Raskovic said:

21             "All this can sound some kind of profanity, but I believe that

22     there is no fear of Bosnian sovereignty for the Serbian people in BiH.

23     It would not be a genocide.  I talked about that with Karadzic.  He's not

24     inclined to accept my opinion" --

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, please.  Could the

Page 46182

 1     Prosecutor not skip anything once he starts reading.  Now that he did

 2     start, he should read everything out.  I mean, it is unfair to skip two

 3     sentences that explain everything.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  But if you -- first, could you help me find the

 5     passage on this page.

 6             MR ZEC:  So it starts with -- towards the upper part of the page,

 7     "... that true politics has not been established ..." That's in English.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             MR ZEC:  And I skipped that part and I said:

10             "All this can sound some kind of profanity, but, believe me,

11     there is no fear of Bosnian sovereignty for the Serbian people in BiH.

12     This would not be genocide."

13             Then I will skip two lines:

14             "I talked about that with Karadzic.  He's not inclined to accept

15     my opinion.  He thinks it is necessary to react in a different way if the

16     Bosnian sovereignty is formed.  According to him, the Serbs must adopt

17     different political stand and a diverse political procedure in that case,

18     even though it seems to me that it pushes people into a war.  He has an

19     excuse so far as to say that they caused it and we are only reacting to

20     it.  However, his reaction is without a doubt pro-war one."

21        Q.   So here, Mr. Jaksic, they talk about the issue of Bosnian

22     independence.  And as we see, Mr. Raskovic was not against Bosnian

23     independence, but Mr. Karadzic insisted that Bosnian Serbs should react

24     against it even if, as Mr. Raskovic says, it pushes people into a war.

25     So it is not correct that Raskovic was more influential in the

Page 46183

 1     Bosnian Krajina than Karadzic.  In fact, it was Karadzic and his

 2     influence which ultimately prevailed in the Bosnian Krajina; right?

 3        A.   Yes, it did prevail, but Raskovic gave numerous statements.  I

 4     don't want to cite them here, you probably know them, about both the

 5     Serbs and the war.  He acted more like a free-thinking lecturer.  As far

 6     as the population in Krajina is concerned, there was no distinction.

 7     According to Karadzic or to Raskovic, people believed it's absolutely the

 8     same policy.  So we did not feel any conflict, nor were there any

 9     factions between Karadzic and Raskovic in Krajina.  But what matters is

10     that people with whom I worked had very little contact with Raskovic.  In

11     fact, we had no contact with him at all.

12        Q.   But you confirm this is Jovan Raskovic that you talk about and

13     the extent to which his views were followed in Bosanska Krajina?  This is

14     the same person; right?

15             MR. ROBINSON:  Objection, Mr. President.  That question, whether

16     this is the same Jovan Raskovic is not -- I don't believe it's going --

17     it's a relevant question because it won't make any difference to the

18     admissibility of this.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Probably you can reformulate your question, Mr. Zec.

20             MR ZEC:

21        Q.   Mr. Jaksic, when you in your statement talk about Jovan Raskovic

22     and his views and influence on Bosanska Krajina, this was an example of

23     the views you were talking about; right?

24        A.   I only said that Professor Raskovic was a charismatic personality

25     and he was present when the first boards in Krajina were established.  I

Page 46184

 1     don't know if he visited later.  He wasn't present there much.  After the

 2     proclamation of independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina, he didn't go there.

 3     He wasn't present all, either physically or politically.

 4             MR ZEC:  Mr. President, I would offer this article.

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  Objection, Mr. President.  The witness didn't

 6     confirm this aspect of Mr. Raskovic's views, and the Prosecution is

 7     trying to basically get admitted that Raskovic thought Dr. Karadzic had a

 8     pro-war stance, when the witness didn't confirm or comment on that.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Did he not confirm to the extent that -- to the

10     extent to agree that Mr. Karadzic's position prevailed at the end of the

11     day?

12             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, his position but not as described by -- he

13     didn't comment on -- on the aspect of his position described in this

14     article.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Zec, would you like to add --

16             MR ZEC:  Yeah --

17             JUDGE KWON:  -- anything?

18             MR ZEC:  -- that was the exact impeachment point, because in the

19     statement it was Mr. Raskovic who gave more foundations or influence in

20     Krajina.  And now it contradicts the witness, first; and second, the

21     witness confirmed that this was the case.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber agrees with Mr. Zec.  We'll admit this

24     part.  Shall we assign a number for this.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6617 [Realtime transcript read in

Page 46185

 1     error "P6670"], Your Honours.

 2             MR ZEC:

 3        Q.   Mr. Jaksic, once the conflict started, the idea of creating Serb

 4     areas in Bosnia was implemented by targeting non-Serbs attacking and

 5     destroying their towns and places of residence and detaining many.

 6     That's what happened; right?

 7        A.   I was there.  These things happened very little [Realtime

 8     transcript read in error "late"] in Banja Luka.  The president of Banja

 9     Luka municipality was Mr. Radic, my associate at the institute, and we

10     did our utmost to prevent some uncontrolled groups to do harm to people.

11     I did not witness any of these things and I don't know much about them.

12     However, at the same time, the 14 members of my closest family including

13     my brothers and sisters --

14        Q.   So -- and the fact was that an ethnically clean Serb area was

15     created; right?

16        A.   No, I don't think it's a fact.

17             MR ZEC:  Could we have --

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Line 11, the witness said:  Very

21     few of these things happened in Banja Luka, or these things happened very

22     little, not very late.

23             JUDGE KWON:  What I heard is "very little."

24             MR ZEC:  Thank you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But what is written is "very late."

Page 46186

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I confirm that.

 2             Yes, shall we continue.

 3             MR ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President.  Can we have 65 ter 40606C,

 4     which is a video-clip.

 5        Q.   And Mr. Jaksic, you will see a video-clip from a TV talk show

 6     where you; Drago Ljubicic from Doboj; and Pero Markovic, from Brcko, talk

 7     about the peace plan proposal.  There is no date, it could be 1994 or

 8     1995, but perhaps you will be able to tell us the date.

 9             MR ZEC:  And, Mr. President, transcripts were provided to the

10     translators so they can translate.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "But an even more important point is

13     that really not a single part of Republika Srpska could be found to be

14     returned or to be given to us.  I take the expression which would really

15     be a gift to the other side.  Not a single area could be found that is

16     not an ethnically clean Serb area.  Even if there was no fighting and if

17     so many people did not die for it, to do that would be a sin.  But I

18     think that the percentage leads to the following, and I'm warning that

19     that should more or less lead to the following, that's what's being

20     reckoned with, people from Krajina will not given in -- will not give up

21     Krajina.  They have an argument.  People from Posavina will not give up

22     Posavina.  People from Semberija will not give up Semberija.  Those in

23     Birac will not give up Birac.  Herzegovinians and people from Romanija

24     will not give ..."

25             MR ZEC:

Page 46187

 1        Q.   Mr. Jaksic, did you recognise yourself, Drago Ljubicic, and

 2     Pero Markovic on this clip?

 3        A.   Of course I recognised myself, and I have almost forgotten these

 4     other people.

 5        Q.   Are you able to tell us when this was?

 6        A.   I believe that was towards the end of 1994.  At that time

 7     Republika Srpska had about 72 per cent of the territory of

 8     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and in the Owen-Stoltenberg Plan, divisions had

 9     already been planned and discussed in percentages, and we were aware that

10     we could not keep 72 per cent of the territory.  And there was a lot of

11     talk about where we could make a concession, in which area, and then

12     there occurred a rift between both politicians and regions, each of them

13     calculating which part of which area it could be.  And that was the

14     discussion in this show.

15        Q.   And you said:

16             "Not a single area could be found that is not ethnically clean

17     Serb area."

18             At this point in time you were aware of this -- of the results of

19     campaigns to forcibly remove non-Serbs from large areas of

20     Republika Srpska; right?

21        A.   No, that's not right.  I had analyses, and I published them in a

22     book which you have in your possession.  The area where Serbs are 92

23     per cent of the population covers 52 per cent of the area of Bosnia and

24     Herzegovina.  It was very difficult, therefore, to find areas where we

25     could make concessions without giving up ethnically pure Serb areas.

Page 46188

 1        Q.   Let's see one more clip from this same discussion with respect to

 2     one of these areas.

 3             MR ZEC:  That is Pero Markovic discussing the area of Brcko.  And

 4     we also provided transcript of this clip.  It is 65 ter 40406A.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "As for the people who live in Brcko

 7     and Posavina, I think the situation is the same.  If you remember, Brcko

 8     was being divided up to the railroad, up to Brka river, this way, that

 9     way.  We are sure that Brcko will not and must not be divided, that Brcko

10     will remain Serbian and that it will serve as a connection between

11     Krajinas and motherland Serbia; and that Interplet socks, Bimal oil,

12     Bimeks ham, et cetera, will continue to be sold in Serbian lands.  That

13     is to say that we will serve as a connection between Serbian lands in

14     proportion to the future size, and I sincerely hope that they will become

15     as big as we all want them to be."

16             MR ZEC:

17        Q.   Mr. Jaksic, Brcko was one of these areas which you refer the

18     ethnically clean areas in Republika Srpska; right?

19        A.   I was not aware of that.  I found out only after the war, after

20     peace was made.  I didn't have any information in Banja Luka concerning

21     Brcko at that time.

22             MR ZEC:  Your Honours, I would tender these two clips and I don't

23     have any further questions.

24             JUDGE KWON:  We'll admit them both.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 40606C will be Exhibit P6618.  And

Page 46189

 1     65 ter 40606A will be Exhibit P6619.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have any re-examination?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, your Excellency.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please proceed.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 7        Q.   [Interpretation] Professor, questions were put to you about the

 8     union of municipalities.  At that time, did we introduce something

 9     completely new and violate the law or the constitution by creating this

10     union of municipalities?  How did things stand from the legal point of

11     view?

12        A.   As far as I know, unions of municipalities existed even before

13     the war.  However, they had very little purpose.  Certain laws were

14     amended a bit or supplemented to enable life to go on properly.  But no

15     new legislation was imposed, especially not laws that would discriminate

16     against certain groups or areas.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown P4743.

18     And I ask the witness once again to speak more slowly.  P4743.  This is

19     the SFRY constitution from 1974.  Could we see the Serbian page 22 and 53

20     in English.  Could we zoom in on the lower part of page 119 -- Article

21     119.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Please, Professor, I'll read out.  Everybody can see.  It says

24     that communities shall co-operate with one another voluntarily and on

25     principles of solidarity.  They shall pull resources and form joint

Page 46190

 1     bodies, organisations, and services for the conduct of affairs of common

 2     interest and the satisfaction of common needs, and may associate in urban

 3     and regional communities.  Now, what was going on in Krajina?  Was it

 4     within the framework of this article?

 5        A.   Precisely.  This article was used when this union of

 6     municipalities was established because we had no other legal foundation

 7     for it.  Although we had other areas and other regions, the only legal

 8     foundation was this article of the law.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This article straddles the next

11     page, but this was already exhibited as a Prosecution number, so I won't

12     waste time on it.

13             JUDGE KWON:  I just wanted to note that the English is not a

14     translation of the B/C/S version.  This --

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The version in B/C/S straddles the

16     next page.  Maybe we could see the next page --

17             JUDGE KWON:  No --

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- in the left top corner.

19             JUDGE KWON:  What I wanted to say is that the B/C/S is the

20     original and the English version is coming from a separate collection.

21     So I noted the distinction between "may" and "shall."  I heard the

22     translation "shall," but it is -- it's "may" in English version.  I think

23     if we see the cover page, it's a compilation of various constitution of

24     various countries in the world, so I take it it's not the original

25     translation of this original version.  With that caveat, we'll continue.

Page 46191

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  We'll have it

 2     translated.  But "shall" is more appropriate, "shall co-operate

 3     voluntarily."  And as for association, it says "may associate," or "may

 4     join," and "may associate in urban and regional communities."

 5             JUDGE KWON:  For clarity, I would like to request the CLSS to

 6     translate this Article 119.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And there is some text on the next

 8     page, so the end of this article is on the next page, so I draw your

 9     attention to these two pages.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Now, Professor, you have been shown an interview with late

12     Professor Raskovic which is now admitted as P6670.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see that document, please.

14     Prosecution Exhibit 6670.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Probably 17.  We haven't reached that number, 70.

16             MR ZEC:  11996, 65 ter that I had.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In line 5 on page 62, it is marked

18     that the exhibit is P6670.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Passage where you are referred to as "pro-war."

20     Yes, 6617.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Then on page 62, line 5, it needs

22     to be corrected.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we zoom in on the middle

25     paragraph; that is to say, the third from the right.  One to the left --

Page 46192

 1     right.  One more to the left.  One more, I'm sorry.  Good.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Professor, here esteemed Prosecutor Zec skipped a passage.  It

 4     says, "All this may" --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Probably next page for the English, yes.

 6             Yes, please, continue.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   "All this may sound as some sort of blasphemy but I believe that

 9     the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina should not fear Bosnian

10     sovereignty.  It would not be genocidal.  Perhaps it would not be

11     'Serbophile,' and it would be 'Serbophobe' but it would not be

12     'Serbocide."  That's what I discussed with Dr. Karadzic.  He is not

13     inclined to accept my opinion."

14             Please, Professor, tell us, first of all, were there any

15     indications that that kind of Bosnia would be Serbophobe, and would the

16     Serbian people accept that regardless of what I might have recommended?

17        A.   A large part of my statement which I signed and which we

18     discussed is based on the fact that in Krajina there were no rifts

19     between the lines advocated by you on the one hand and Raskovic on the

20     other.  After the referendum, it was widely believed that Serbs in Bosnia

21     would not be equal with others.  And separation from Yugoslavia was

22     absolutely unacceptable to the population.  There was even a conviction

23     that you are even too tolerant and too inclined to believe them more than

24     the people were.  I now claim that your position was not hard-line.  On

25     the contrary, they were softer and more tolerant concerning the

Page 46193

 1     Serbophobia that the people were expecting.

 2        Q.   In the question, line 12, what's missing is the following:  Did

 3     the policy that was afoot in Bosnia give us reason to view it as

 4     Serbophobe, and would people accept it even if I had advised them to

 5     accept a unitarian Bosnia?  The answer is recorded but I just wanted the

 6     question to be complete.

 7        A.   The people would not have accepted it even if you had advised

 8     them to.  The people in Krajina certainly wouldn't.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have further?  Shall we continue after a

11     break?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, your Excellency.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll have a break for 45 minutes and resume at

14     17 past 1.00.

15                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.35 p.m.

16                           [The witness stands down]

17                           [The witness takes the stand]

18                           --- On resuming at 1.22 p.m.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.  Please continue.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Professor, while we're looking at this document that we have

23     before us, in view of the fact that you were familiar with Yugoslav

24     constitution and laws, were we duty-bound to accept a unilaterally

25     seceding independent BH which would have been Serbophobe as Dr. Raskovic

Page 46194

 1     put it?

 2        A.   I don't think that the constitution of Yugoslavia defined any

 3     such scenarios of the breakup of the country unfolding in this way.

 4     However, I am quite certain about the fact about the way in which

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina declared its independence was unacceptable to the

 6     population in Bosnia-Herzegovina, or shall I say in Krajina.  We must be

 7     aware of the fact that in Jajce and Bihac, in Krajina therefore, this is

 8     where Yugoslavia was born because this is where the thrust of the

 9     liberation war took place.  The population of the area did not

10     contemplate the idea of leaving Yugoslavia at all.  It wasn't necessary

11     to mobilise the population in any way in order to resist this process of

12     declaring Bosnia-Herzegovina independent.  And the Serbian people,

13     regardless of whether a referendum would have been held, would never

14     accept that.

15        Q.   And thank you.  This is my last question.  The TV talk show we

16     were looking at where you talk about the territories being restored

17     within the Owen-Stoltenberg Plan, Professor, was it your position and

18     were you saying there that purely Serb territories would have to be

19     restored and in that sense were you talking about the territories that

20     were purely Serb before the war or the territories that we took under our

21     control in the course of the war?

22             MR ZEC:  Leading.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Indeed.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 46195

 1        Q.   Can you tell us what you meant when you said that territories

 2     from Semberija, from here and there, that they would have to be restored

 3     and that they would have to be purely Serb?

 4        A.   Well, there were several plans for the partition of Bosnia, from

 5     the Cutileiro Plan, to the Owen-Stoltenberg Plan, and we were all engaged

 6     on the matter.  We all contemplated the territories that should fall to

 7     us under these plans.  Of course, there were quite a few calculating

 8     positions that were being planted, bandied about, even within Republika

 9     Srpska.  So we knew that we would be compelled to give up on some of the

10     territories in order to end up with compact territory.  In that context,

11     we were apprehensive of the fact, and this is something that turned out

12     to be true under the Dayton Accords, we were apprehensive of the fact

13     that we would have to give up on purely Serb territories.  It was never

14     our position that we should count on the territories that were conquered

15     in any way.  Ultimately, it had to do with part of the Herzegovina,

16     western Bosnia, Drvar, Glamoc.  All these territories ultimately ended up

17     in the federation.  What we had in mind were the territories where over

18     90 per cent of the population was Serbs and they were the periphery of

19     what was the then layout of Republika Srpska.

20        Q.   When we say "purely Serb," this means "indubitably Serb."  Was

21     Banja Luka purely Serb during the war?

22        A.   Not during the war it wasn't.  The records reflecting the various

23     percentages was not something that we were able to have.  In my

24     institute, people kept on working until 1994.  However, there were waves

25     of people moving out in the outlying areas, and this led to a psychosis

Page 46196

 1     where people grouped, where people left.  But never during the war did we

 2     contemplate this, and the majority of us were in fact afraid of being

 3     ethnically pure.

 4        Q.   When you say you didn't contemplate this, you didn't treat them,

 5     who is "we," and how were the Muslims leaving Banja Luka treated?  Were

 6     they driven out?

 7        A.   Well, I know that there were people who left the institute and

 8     they were weeping.  We didn't sack them.  They simply left of their own

 9     accord.  Were they organised by someone?  Did they have to leave?  I

10     don't know.  But I know quite a few people.  I know people who came to

11     see me at home who told me, I don't have the intention of leaving but a

12     group was getting organised and advising me to join them and pack up our

13     things.  So many people were involved and we weren't quite clear on what

14     the motivations were.  Perhaps there was pressure exerted on some, but in

15     many cases I think it was the case of departures that were organised and

16     prepared.

17        Q.   And who initiated these departures?  Was it the authorities or

18     they themselves?

19        A.   Well, I don't know that.  Not the local authorities, no.

20     President Radic, in fact, was confronted with a great deal of problems.

21     He was often said to be the man who failed to respond to allegations that

22     Serbs in some other areas were being driven out, and he was often

23     reproached for being too tolerant.  Our view was that we should not give

24     into such statements and that we should not facilitate or in any way

25     assist this process of people moving out of the area.

Page 46197

 1        Q.   Thank you.  I have no further questions.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Well, then that concludes your evidence, Mr. Jaksic.

 3     On behalf of the Chamber, I would like to thank you for your coming to

 4     The Hague to give it.  You are now free to go.  Please have a safe

 5     journey back home.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7                           [The witness withdrew]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  So next witness is Mr. Jovo Kevac.

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct, Mr. President.

10                           [The witness entered court]

11             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness make the solemn declaration.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

13     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14                           WITNESS:  JOVO KEVAC

15                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Kevac.  Please be seated and make

17     yourself comfortable.

18             Yes.  Before you commence your evidence, Mr. Kevac, I must draw

19     your attention to a certain rule that we have here at this international

20     Tribunal; that is, Rule 90(E).  Under this rule, you may object to

21     answering any question from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecutor, or even from

22     the Judges if you believe that your answer might incriminate you in a

23     criminal offence.  In this context, "incriminate" means saying something

24     that might amount to an admission of your guilt in a criminal offence, or

25     saying something that might provide evidence that you might have

Page 46198

 1     committed a criminal offence.  However, should you think that an answer

 2     might incriminate you and as a consequence you refuse to answer the

 3     question, I must let you know that the Tribunal has the power to compel

 4     you to answer the question.  But in that situation, the Tribunal would

 5     ensure that your testimony compelled under such circumstances would not

 6     be used in any case that might be laid against you for any offence save

 7     and except the offence of giving false testimony.  Do you understand

 8     that, Mr. Kevac?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

11             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.  Please proceed.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Kevac.

15        A.   Good afternoon, Mr. President.

16        Q.   This was a bit too fast.  Please let's make a pause and make sure

17     that we speak slowly so that everything may be reflected in the

18     transcript without resorting to the need to repeat things.

19             Mr. Kevac, have you given a statement to my Defence team?

20        A.   Yes.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May the witness be shown 1D49065.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   While we are waiting, Jovo is short for Jovan; is that right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Please look at the left-hand side.  Is this the first page of

Page 46199

 1     your statement?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Have you read the statement and signed it?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the last page be shown so that

 6     the witness may identify the signature.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Is this your signature?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Does the statement accurately reflect what you told

11     the Defence team?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to put the same questions to you here today

14     in the courtroom, would your answers essentially be the same?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tender this statement into

18     evidence under Rule 92 ter.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon, Ms. Edgerton.  Do you have any

20     objection?

21             MS. EDGERTON:  Good afternoon, and no.

22             JUDGE KWON:  We'll receive it.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D4268, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I will now read a short

Page 46200

 1     summary of the statement in English, the statement by Mr. Jovo Kevac.

 2             [In English] Jovo Kevac was elected to the

 3     Kljuc Municipal Assembly in 1990.  In 1992, he was mobilised in the JNA

 4     and assigned to the war unit 820, the Banja Luka training centre.

 5             The Kljuc Municipal Assembly had an absolute majority of SDS

 6     members.  The assembly continued to operate normally until the events in

 7     Croatia and Slovenia, after which concern spread among all citizens.

 8     When the first incident occurred, the Muslim leaders had already formed

 9     their own Stari Grad municipality and their own BH Territorial Defence.

10     A particularly serious incident occurred when Muslim extremists set up an

11     ambush on the road between Velagici and Pudin Han and attacked a column

12     of young, unarmed soldiers on regular military service in the JNA.  On

13     this occasion, six soldiers were killed and about twenty wounded.

14             As it became clear from numerous attacks, the Muslim extremists

15     were preparing for war with the Serbs in Kljuc.  This is also confirmed

16     by the fact that the Muslims moved a large number of Muslim civilians

17     from the area of Velagici along to Slovenia, Croatia, and other European

18     countries before the first incident.  During and after these events, the

19     situation was chaotic:  Roads and telecommunications were cut, there were

20     disruptions to the water-supply, shortage of medicine, food, and fuel,

21     and there was no electricity.  The safety of every citizen was

22     compromised regardless of affiliation or ethnicity, since individuals and

23     groups were roaming around and seeking personal and financial benefits.

24             The chaos in Kljuc lasted until the establishment of political

25     authorities and of VRS and civilian police.  They immediately ordered

Page 46201

 1     that a system be created to ensure the safety and protection of all

 2     citizens of Kljuc and the political leadership offered co-existence to

 3     everyone.  Many Muslims remained in Kljuc in 1992-1993 and some joined

 4     the civilian structures.

 5             After the first incident in Kljuc municipality, panic and chaos

 6     took hold and all those who had relatives or friends somewhere abroad

 7     tried to leave.  It was not only Muslims and Croats who did so, but also

 8     Serbs.  The SDS and the military authorities of Kljuc municipality never

 9     planned or ordered the ethnic cleansing of the municipality.  All

10     citizens who did not participate in combat operations and attacks on

11     Serbs were allowed to stay.

12             On 28th of May, 1992, the leadership of Kljuc municipality

13     appealed to everyone in possession of illegal weapons to hand them over

14     to the legal organs of the civilian police in order to avoid untoward

15     incidents.  The Muslims who did not want to hand in their weapons ran

16     away and tried to join the Muslim forces on the territory outside Kljuc.

17     After the ultimatum, those who were found in possession of illegal arms

18     were taken to the Secretariat of the Interior, SUP, office to be

19     interrogated.  Mr. Kevac is not aware of any beating that occurred during

20     and outside these investigations.

21             On 10th of July, 1992, Bosnian Muslim men and women were killed

22     at the school building of the Biljani hamlet.  This heinous crime was

23     committed by individuals who got out of control.  They were arrested and

24     handed over to the prosecution authorities in Banja Luka.

25             And that is summary.  At that moment, I do not have questions for

Page 46202

 1     Mr. Kevac.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 3             Mr. Kevac, as you have noted, your evidence in chief in this case

 4     has been admitted in writing; that is, through your written witness

 5     statement in lieu of your oral testimony.  Now, you'll be cross-examined

 6     by the representative of the Office of the Prosecutor.

 7             Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 9                           Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

10        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Kevac.

11        A.   Good afternoon, Madam Prosecutor.

12        Q.   I'd like to begin your cross-examination by going straight to a

13     document.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  It's 65 ter number 09225, please.

15        Q.   Right.  This document, Mr. Kevac, is a report dated

16     July 13, 1992, from the security organ of the 30th Krajina Division, and,

17     Mr. Kevac, it's responding to a Main Staff query dated the same day, and

18     the query was about paramilitary and other units in the division's area

19     of responsibility.

20             MS. EDGERTON:  And I'd like us to go over in both languages to

21     page 3, please, in English and in B/C/S.

22        Q.   Now, Mr. Kevac, have a look at that paragraph that's at the top

23     of the page in your language, while we'll have a look at the same

24     paragraph that's in the middle of the page in English.  And it says:

25             "The revival of the Chetnik movement is present in the area of

Page 46203

 1     the Kljuc municipality and the promoters there are the SDS

 2     President Veljko Kondic, a close relative of Vinko Kondic, from the Kljuc

 3     SSJB 'Vojvoda' Jovo Kevac, reserve captain 1st class, is a member of the

 4     units formed on that territory.  In the end of April, Kevac provoked a

 5     rebellion in the education centre of Stricici and prevented the sending

 6     of 117 scripts and officers to a war unit of the 1st Krajina Corps.  On

 7     his return to the territory of Kljuc, the political leadership appointed

 8     him a company commander and later on he was transferred to the position

 9     of battalion commander in that area."

10             That's you; right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And whatever this document says, you were integrated into the

13     VRS; right?  You were -- not only as a company commander, a battalion

14     commander, but for a period of time you even served as a brigade

15     commander in the VRS; right?

16        A.   I was not a brigade commander.

17        Q.   All right.  But in terms of your positions and ranks, the

18     document's correct.  You were a company commander and you were a

19     battalion commander; right?

20        A.   I was a -- I was the commander of a company as it was being set

21     up, and likewise the battalion commander.  It was only at the end of

22     August that the battalion was in fact formed and that I was appointed its

23     commander.

24        Q.   All right.  Now your statement doesn't say a word about any of

25     that; right?  It doesn't have a word about your military service.  All it

Page 46204

 1     says is that -- in fact, if I hadn't have asked you anything else, we

 2     would all have understood that you spent your service in the training

 3     centre in Banja Luka, because that's all your statement says; right?

 4        A.   I did say that we returned to the municipality as the

 5     820th Training Centre was disbanded.  As an experienced officer, with

 6     previous experience of work at the TO Staff, at this point in time when

 7     it was not possible to gain access to the records of conscripts, I was

 8     taken on because of my experience to gather the units that would come

 9     under the 17th Kljuc Brigade.  And that's why, as you say, I was company

10     commander and battalion commander.  I didn't think it necessary to

11     describe my entire warpath.  But if necessary, I can describe for you the

12     various places where I was deployed to during the war and the posts I was

13     appointed to.

14        Q.   Well, we'll get to that.  But, Mr. Kevac, your statement doesn't

15     even say that you returned to the municipality as the

16     820th Training Center was disbanded.  It says absolutely nothing about

17     your military service record; right?

18        A.   I'm sorry if that's the way it is, but right now I cannot

19     remember what it was that I wrote.  But I believe that that was so.

20     However, not with the intention of avoiding anything.

21        Q.   Well, you say now that you omitted that significant period of

22     time of service, not with the intention of avoiding anything, but,

23     Mr. Kevac, that period of service -- in that period of service, you were

24     a member and you were a commander of units who were involved in crimes

25     against non-Serbs in Prhovo, in Peci, in Velagici, and Biljani.

Page 46205

 1     Mr. Kevac, what I'd like to put to you is that you deliberately -- you

 2     deliberately hid your military service record because you had a personal

 3     interest in doing so.  You wanted to avoid criminal investigation.  Isn't

 4     that the case?

 5        A.   No, no, Madam Prosecutor, that is not the case.  No intention

 6     whatsoever.  And all the things that you enumerated, namely, that the

 7     non-Serb population was killed at these locations, that is not correct.

 8     The only thing that may have happened was the village of Biljani, where I

 9     tried, as briefly as possible, to explain how come that happened.  As for

10     all the rest that you enumerated previously, I was not there at all, and

11     that was not something that my unit did and it was not their line of

12     work, either.

13        Q.   Well, Mr. Kevac, your fellow soldiers, including Marko Adamovic,

14     and your company commander, your subordinate company commander,

15     Marko Samardzija, have both been convicted of crimes arising from the

16     actions of your military forces at these locations, Marko Samardzija, in

17     particular, for his in the events at Biljani on the 10th of July.  So,

18     Mr. Kevac, it's not the truth that guided you in making this statement.

19     As I said, it was your direct personal interest in avoiding

20     investigation, isn't it?  Otherwise, without my questioning right now we

21     would never have known what you were doing; right?

22        A.   First of all, I would kindly ask you not to use that expression,

23     that I am saying something that is not true.  I am telling the truth.

24     Marko Adamovic and the units that you enumerated were never subordinated

25     to me.  Marko Adamovic was subordinated to me at the Territorial Defence

Page 46206

 1     Staff in peacetime.  He was one of my desk officers.  In wartime, no.

 2     Marko Samardzija was also a company commander, a commander of a company

 3     that was being established because he hailed from that village.  If you

 4     allow me, I can give an explanation.

 5             The unit was not in barracks.  The units were at home.  I mean,

 6     the personnel, the members of these units.  There were lists that we

 7     managed to complete.  Marko worked on the establishment of that unit, and

 8     after that he was not commander of that unit.  So there is no wish or

 9     intention on our part to conceal anything here.  But, please, I kindly

10     ask you, if possible, to refrain from saying that I am not telling the

11     truth.  Rest assured that I am telling the truth, and it is my wish to

12     clarify all of these matters, as a matter of fact.  Thank you.

13        Q.   So you're telling the truth now, but you were hiding the truth

14     when you signed that statement.  That's what you're telling us.

15        A.   Oh, please.  Why did you not put a question to me in terms of

16     speaking about my statement.  I thought that this was sufficient.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness repeat

18     his second sentence.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Had you put the questions that you

20     were supposed to put to me, believe me, I would have provided an

21     extensive answer.

22             MS. EDGERTON:

23        Q.   Mr. Kevac, the interpreters are concerned that they might have

24     missed your second sentence or your sentence after you responded:

25             "Why did you not put a question to me in terms of speaking about

Page 46207

 1     my statement."

 2             What did you say after that?  What we have here is that you said

 3     that you thought that this was sufficient.  Do you confirm that's what

 4     you said?

 5        A.   Yes.  Yes.  I thought that that was sufficient.  But before that,

 6     I also said that I would have given an extensive explanation about my

 7     movements.  I thought that was the question.  I thought that that was

 8     sufficient.  I made myself available.

 9        Q.   Let's have a look --

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Before I move on, could I have the first document,

11     65 ter number 09225, tendered as a Prosecution exhibit, please.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll receive it.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6620, Your Honours.

14             MS. EDGERTON:

15        Q.   Let's go on to another document.

16             MS. EDGERTON:  That's P3366, please.

17             I just need to check that I have the right 65 ter number.  That's

18     good.  We have the correct documents in front of us now.

19        Q.   Have a look at this one, Mr. Kevac.  This is an Official Note

20     dated July 10, 1992, and it's prepared by the commander of the Sanica

21     public security station.  And it's about the moping up in Sanica by the

22     military organs or the battalion of Commander Jovo Kevac.  That's you

23     again; right?

24        A.   That is me, but I repeat to you yet again that in that period I

25     was not commander.  Rather, I was carrying out the replenishment of the

Page 46208

 1     battalion and training the commander of that battalion.  I became

 2     commander of that battalion on the basis of an official order in the

 3     month of August.

 4        Q.   Regardless of whatever title you're now saying that you might

 5     have held at the time of the action in Biljani, it's clear that this

 6     document is referring to you, isn't it?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   This document says that the commander of the police station in

 9     Sanica was informed by you that the next day your units would undertake a

10     moping-up operation in the terrain in Biljani.  It says that the job of

11     the police was to take over the military prisoners, to put them in the

12     school in Biljani, and that they got help from the mobile intervention

13     unit of the Kljuc SJB.  It says that the action at Biljani happened in

14     constant communication with the military and that it was the military who

15     sent two buses from Kljuc to take the prisoners there.  So this document

16     says you were the commander of a co-ordinated operation that ended with

17     the killing of more than 100 unarmed men, Mr. Kevac.  Isn't that true?

18        A.   These words of yours really give rise to something that I have to

19     put this way:  This term, "moping up the terrain," or rather, "cleansing

20     the terrain," is not used in military terminology.  It was mostly used by

21     policemen believing that that is a search of the wider area.  In this

22     case --

23        Q.   Mr. Kevac, Mr. Kevac, I didn't ask you about that.  My question

24     was that --

25             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President, I think he was being

Page 46209

 1     responsive to her question.  She should give him a chance to answer.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  I am not sure he was answering the question.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I, Excellency.  I think that

 4     the Prosecution's question suggested cleansing.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll hear him from the meaning of "moping up"

 6     and then proceed.

 7             Yes, please continue.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Are you addressing me now?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I repeat once again:

11     "Ciscenje terena" is not military terminology.  It was used in the

12     police.  I meant searching the broader area.  Now, why did this commander

13     use that term?  I don't know.  Probably because in their own

14     communications they use the term several times because this term was used

15     in peacetime as well.  The task of this unit, as mentioned here, was to

16     have the Muslim population, the men, gathered in a single place and this

17     was being said to people from one home to another.  Members of the unit

18     went around saying that.  But then these people were at their homes all

19     the time.  They were carrying out their regular duties, standing guard

20     duty at night and also they had reinforced patrols.  So this unit was

21     involved in the following way:  These men were brought together and the

22     security services, military and civilian, were supposed to deal with

23     persons who were of security interest.

24             Now an explanation:  Persons who did not hand over illegal

25     weapons, persons who were marked as incident prone, and also when that

Page 46210

 1     would be completed people would go home, except for those persons who

 2     were supposed to be investigated.  This was not a single case only.  It

 3     would also happen in the territory of the municipality where there were

 4     absolutely no incidents whatsoever.  Persons of security interest would

 5     be singled out and the rest would be sent to their homes.

 6             Now, why did this happen?  We'll probably discuss that a bit

 7     more.  I kindly ask you, though, to understand, to the extent you can for

 8     the sake of the truth, what the times were like and what the conditions

 9     were like.

10             MS. EDGERTON:

11        Q.   Now, if I may, I'd like to get back to my question.  My question

12     was about what this document says.  My question was:  This document says

13     that you were the commander of a co-ordinated operation that ended with

14     the killing of more than 100 men.  You were the commander; right?

15        A.   I repeat for the third time:  No, I was not commander.  Another

16     explanation, now.  As for the relationship with the civilian authorities,

17     that is to say, this military unit with the civilian authorities --

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Kevac.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- this was dealt with by --

20             JUDGE KWON:  The question has nothing to do with the co-operation

21     with the police.  Wait for the next question.

22             Please continue, Ms. Edgerton.

23             MS. EDGERTON:

24        Q.   So are you saying that this document which says on its face --

25     which refers on its face to you about the moping-up action in Sanica by

Page 46211

 1     military organs or the battalion of the commander Jovan Kevac is wrong?

 2     You were the 2nd Battalion commander, weren't you?  You were in charge.

 3        A.   Let's deal with it this way.  This document is written in a

 4     grotesque way.  I am saying this in linguistic and logical terms.  I am

 5     stating to you for sure that I was not the responsible person and that I

 6     was not the commander of the unit at the time.  Quite simply, I was an

 7     officer whose task was to establish the battalion in these impossible

 8     conditions, if I can put it that way, and to train the command that had

 9     been manned with inappropriate military specialties.  So that's it.  I

10     really don't see what it is that you want me to add to this.

11        Q.   So you completely hid your military service record from all of us

12     in the first place.  And now that I confront you with it and now that I

13     confront you with a document that puts you in command of an operation

14     that resulted in the killing of more than a hundred men, you say the

15     document is wrong, that it's a lie.  You're just trying to avoid

16     investigation, Mr. Kevac.  That's why you didn't tell us about it in the

17     first place; right?

18        A.   You're going back to my answer to the question that I have

19     already answered.  I have no reason to hide my movements during the war,

20     but these insinuations, these things that you are trying to pin on me,

21     that cannot relate to this.  And I repeat to you once again:  This is not

22     a wrongful report.  This is a grotesque report.  That's a difference that

23     can be stated in our language.  Or how do I clarify this?  It's just

24     clumsy.  It's worded in a clumsy way without any kind of ill intentions.

25     Now, why would one not believe me?  After all, I took an oath a moment

Page 46212

 1     ago stating that I would tell the truth, and this is the truth,

 2     100 per cent.

 3        Q.    Well, let's go to the evidence of somebody else who took an oath

 4     in front of another Chamber of this Tribunal.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  65 ter number 25953.

 6        Q.   And it's the evidence of a witness who testified in the

 7     prosecution of General Mladic.  Her name was Ms. Birte Weiss, and she's

 8     an experienced journalist with more than 25 years of service in the

 9     Danish cabinet who went back to journalism.  And she testified in front

10     of the Judges in the trial of General Mladic about her conversations with

11     Marko Samardzija in relation to the killings at Biljani on the

12     10th of July, 1992.  And you see the page in front of you of her

13     testimony.  And she wrote a book that talked about the events in Kljuc

14     and Biljani, and she said in respect of the events of 10 July 1992

15     Samardzija told her that he called the Commander-in-Chief and told him

16     what was about to happen in Biljani.  Shove off.  Go home, he just said.

17     That was at 9.00 a.m. and there were as yet no dead on the road, all

18     those terrible things that he first heard about later.

19             And then I don't know if the second page of this has been

20     uploaded, so I'll just read it otherwise.  And then Mrs. Weiss was asked:

21             "Did Marko Samardzija tell you who he called?  Did he

22     specifically give the name of who he called?"

23             And she answered:

24             "He mentioned that he contacted the people he could get in touch

25     with.  He created the impression that he -- both on the spot, that he

Page 46213

 1     objected on the spot, and he mentioned the name Jovo Kevac.  And in

 2     addition, by telephone he contacted several people whom he wanted to tell

 3     what was going on in Biljani in those hours."

 4             And then she was asked again -- and I'm reading this to you in

 5     case you don't understand English.  She was asked again:

 6             "And did he tell you who those several people were or what office

 7     they occupied?"

 8             And she answered:

 9             "He said that they were the commanding people."

10             So you told us that you weren't the responsible person but

11     Mrs. Weiss told us that Samardzija said that's exactly who you were.  You

12     were one of the commanders, Mr. Kevac.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  And that's, for the record, Mladic transcript

14     pages 5303 to 5304.

15        Q.   And, Mr. Kevac, I'll show you something else and then I'll ask

16     you a question.  She's not the only one.  In his own trial in front of

17     the state court of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Mr. Samardzija gave evidence.

18     And he was convicted on appeal to custodial time for the crimes -- for

19     crimes relating to the events in Biljani.

20             MS. EDGERTON:  If we could have a look at 65 ter number 25898,

21     just in case you want to see it.

22        Q.   But I can read it to you as well.  That's a copy of the appellate

23     decision in the case of --

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Would it be possible -- would it be

25     possible to have shorter questions?  Please, I'm afraid that we're going

Page 46214

 1     to turn the questions into a salad, and then the answers are going to be

 2     inadequate.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  It's up to the Chamber.  The Chamber will monitor

 4     the appropriateness of questions.

 5             Please continue, Ms. Edgerton.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:

 7        Q.   At page 30 of this decision, and I'm going to see if I can try

 8     quickly to find the B/C/S citation, I might have omitted to do it, but,

 9     in any case, it's English page 30.  The appellate court referred to

10     Samardzija's evidence in his own Defence, and Samardzija said at Biljani,

11     seeing the civilians loaded on the buses, he contacted you and told you

12     something strange was happening.  He told you he needed further

13     instructions.  He referred to you by name.

14             My question to you is:  Given this evidence --

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could that part at least be shown

16     to the witness in Serbian?

17             MS. EDGERTON:  I can do it in a few minutes, Dr. Karadzic, and --

18     because I don't want to --

19             JUDGE KWON:  No, it's important to show it.

20             MS. EDGERTON:  I accept that, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  Could I have your indulgence, then, for a moment?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  Because I didn't bring a B/C/S hard copy with me,

25     so it will take me a couple of minutes.  And my apologies.

Page 46215

 1             Your Honour, my sincere apologies at this.  Would Your Honours

 2     indulge me with a few short minutes of recess rather than wasting

 3     anyone's time?  And it would be very brief for us to find this -- oh, my

 4     colleagues in the Registry who are able to read the language have been

 5     able to save the day, Your Honours.

 6        Q.   And, Mr. Kevac, the citation I was referring to is in the first

 7     full paragraph, the large portion, the large full paragraph at the top of

 8     the page in front of you about halfway through that paragraph.  And the

 9     exact citation says:

10             "The testimony of the witnesses Slavko Strbac and Drago Banjac

11     confirms the defence of the accused that he made a contact with his

12     superior Jovo Kevac, the brigade commander, and that on that occasion he

13     said something strange was happening and that he needed further

14     instructions."

15             MS. EDGERTON:  And my thanks to my colleagues, my sincere thanks.

16        Q.   Mr. Kevac, what I'd like to put to you is:  You were in charge.

17     You knew about the crimes.  You knew about them at the time they were

18     happening.  You're only -- what you're doing, actually, is only trying to

19     create doubt now about this incident because it's in your personal

20     interest to do so.  Isn't that the case?

21        A.   No.  And, please, with these questions that are finally to your

22     benefit, you are not maintaining the dignity of the Prosecution.  The

23     answer to this question is no.  And I will give an explanation to each

24     and every question, if it is the right question, but I really do not

25     appreciate these insinuations.

Page 46216

 1        Q.   Just to stay --

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  Your indulgence.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  But the reference to Jovan Kavac in this document,

 4     does it refer to you, Mr. Kevac?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Because Jovo and Jovan is

 6     approximately the same in our language.  It's very common.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  But it says "Kavac" not "Kevac."  It's a

 8     misspelling.  It's a typo.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, a typo.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

11             MS. EDGERTON:

12        Q.   So despite what Mr. Samardzija said under oath in his own trial,

13     despite what Ms. Weiss said under oath before this Tribunal, you maintain

14     that you were not the responsible person in respect of the events in

15     Biljani; is that correct?

16        A.   Yes.  But you are not letting me explain how that communication

17     went.  It would be clearer to both you and the Court.  The communications

18     were down in the entire territory of Kljuc.  The only connection --

19        Q.   [Overlapping speakers]

20        A.   -- that existed with the local commune Sanica was through radio

21     sets that had a limited range, and then an interim radio station had to

22     be established.  One of these interim stations was at the top of a hill

23     called Biljani.  All communications were by radio.

24        Q.   Mr. Kevac --

25        A.   The first contact with Samardzija --

Page 46217

 1        Q.   Mr. Kevac --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Let's just let him --

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Fine.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Let's just hear him out.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first communication between

 6     this radio was between Marko Samardzija and assistant commander for

 7     legal, moral guidance, and legal affairs.  The assignment of the unit of

 8     which Marko Samardzija was a member was, after gathering Muslim men and

 9     after the security people arrived, to let them go home.  I repeated that

10     to Marko, as far as I remember.

11             So there was no contact in which I was asked what to do because

12     that had already been communicated to these people.  And there is no

13     reason for this kind of communication not to be understood as it really

14     went because the entire civilian and military life operated through these

15     three radio stations.

16             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.

17             Mr. President, I have a request that the remainder of the

18     cross-examination on this subject be heard in closed session, and the

19     reason for that request is that the last time we had a witness from Kljuc

20     that Ms. Edgerton cross-examined and put to that witness that he was

21     responsible for crimes in Biljani and other areas of Kljuc was

22     Marko Adamovic, who at the time he testified, had been acquitted of those

23     crimes.  Two weeks after his testimony, his conviction was -- his

24     acquittal was overturned and he was convicted and sentenced to prison,

25     and it remains unclear to what extent the public broadcast of his

Page 46218

 1     testimony had any influence on that, and I think it's in the interest of

 2     the witness if she's going to be putting this kind of cross-examination

 3     to him, and then looking through the exhibits that they have notified us,

 4     it seems like that's the direction in which it's going, I think it's in

 5     the interest of this witness that the testimony be in closed session so

 6     that he doesn't suffer the same fate.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  So your basis again?  The witness is not invoking

 8     his right to refuse to testify about incriminating events.

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct and we appreciate that.  But given

10     the fact that these events are the subject of prosecution in the court of

11     Bosnia, it appears that it's in the best interest of the witness and the

12     Chamber that the testimony of this nature be given in closed session.

13     And I note that the witness also doesn't have counsel, so he doesn't have

14     anyone to raise that issue other than me doing it for him.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Edgerton.

16             MS. EDGERTON:  I think that's something Mr. Tieger will address

17     you on, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

19             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

20             MR. TIEGER:  It is inappropriate of Mr. Robinson to raise this

21     entirely speculative and unfounded assertion about the alleged

22     relationship between a -- an ongoing legal proceeding and our trial here.

23     He has no basis whatsoever for making this claim except the thinnest of

24     insinuations.  He's the one who has been pressing at every possible

25     juncture for an open trial.  Even if there was some basis for doing that,

Page 46219

 1     the -- going into closed session or private session could only have the

 2     opposite impact in that it would have a -- the strongest of suggestions

 3     that the events about which this witness is explaining and protesting his

 4     innocence were highly incriminatory to the witness because we went into

 5     the private session when it would seem to me would stimulate

 6     investigations in prosecutions rather than anything else.

 7             In any event, particularly given the standard raised by the

 8     Defence during the course of this proceeding, there seems to be no basis

 9     whatsoever for taking the action suggested by Mr. Robinson.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber agrees with Mr. Tieger.  And the witness

12     hasn't invoked his right pursuant to Rule 90(E) not to answer the

13     questions which would incriminate him.  And further, all Ms. Edgerton has

14     done was put questions based upon the documents which are publicly

15     available, including the judgement.  So the Chamber is not satisfied the

16     Chamber should go into private session.

17             Mr. Kevac, I take it you understand what we just discussed.  But

18     I just wanted to remind you that you have a right not to answer the

19     question or notwithstanding the fact that the Chamber still has the power

20     to compel you to answer the question, as I advised you at the outset of

21     your testimony.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, thank you for this.

23     But I reckoned and I still reckon on speaking the truth and only the

24     truth.  But in giving my answers, I was focused only on the answers and

25     forgot about that right.  I thank Mr. Robinson.  But indeed, if we want

Page 46220

 1     to find as much truth as possible and as much as I know, then it would be

 2     a good idea to apply these other measures as well.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure I understood you in full.  Could you be

 4     more specific, Mr. Kevac.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My wish is to tell the real truth

 6     to the extent that I know.  And in focusing on answers and events, I had

 7     forgotten about invoking that right, and I thank Mr. Robinson for

 8     reminding me.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll proceed and see how it evolves.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  I think he's asking -- maybe --

11             JUDGE KWON:  [Overlapping speakers]

12             MR. ROBINSON:  -- we're not understanding it the same way but --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, you may invoke your privilege not to answer the

14     question which -- the answer of which may incriminate you in a criminal

15     offence depending upon the question.

16             So we'll hear the question from Ms. Edgerton and see whether you

17     trigger that privilege or not.

18             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

19             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, given that we have come to the

20     end of our court day, I would ask that the Trial Chamber take a recess at

21     this time and give Mr. Kevac the opportunity to consult with a counsel to

22     be assigned to him so that he could understand what his rights are --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

24             MR. ROBINSON:  [Overlapping speakers]

25             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry to interrupt you.  Who is going to assign

Page 46221

 1     counsel to him?

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  I am asking the Chamber to have Registry provide

 3     him with an assigned counsel so --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  The basis of which is what?

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  The basis of which is that he now has expressed an

 6     indication to possibly take advantage of protective -- of measures that

 7     could protect his rights for self-incrimination.  Those could include

 8     asserting his right not to answer a question or requesting a

 9     closed session.  And I'm not the --

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours --

11             MR. ROBINSON:  I'm not his lawyer, so that --

12             MS. EDGERTON:  -- isn't this a discussion that is better had in

13     the absence of the witness?  I'm sorry, I don't mean anything

14     inappropriate, but just a note of caution.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Do you remember the Chamber once referred to the

16     three categories of persons to whom the Tribunal will assign counsel?

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, I do, Mr. President.  And I also remember

18     your ruling in the case of Mr. Kovac, that when there are exceptional

19     circumstances, the Chamber would assign counsel to someone even if they

20     don't fit within those tree categories.  And I think that this comes

21     within that, because we have now -- if you look at the exhibits that the

22     Prosecution is proposing to use, I think you'll understand even better.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber clearly advised him of his right before

25     he commenced giving his testimony, and I repeated it now.  And therefore

Page 46222

 1     the Chamber sees no basis to suspend the proceeding at the moment.  We

 2     continue.

 3             Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just ask one thing.  The

 5     witness said that perhaps it would not be a bad idea to think of other

 6     measures --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  [Overlapping speakers]

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like the Chamber to find

 9     out whether that meant closing the session.  Did he mean closing the

10     session?  The witness has the right to ask for that.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber was not satisfied to go

12     into private session at the time.  We'll see, and then depending upon the

13     question, if the witness invokes his right pursuant to Rule 90(E), the

14     Chamber consider his request again.

15             Let us continue.

16             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

17        Q.   Mr. Kevac, I'd just like to go back some time in the discussion

18     to the last answer that you gave, to remind you of it, and I'd like to

19     ask you a question based on that.  You said the first communication

20     between this radio was between Marko Samardzija and the assistant

21     commander for legal and morale guidance and legal affairs.  Who was that?

22        A.   That was Spasoje Djukanovic.  Late Spasoje Djukanovic,

23     unfortunately.

24        Q.   Thank you.  You then said that:

25             "The assignment of the unit of which Marko Samardzija was a

Page 46223

 1     member, after gathering Muslim men and after security people arrived, was

 2     to let them go home.  I repeated that to Marko, as far as I remember."

 3             So my question to you is based on that answer.  You would agree

 4     that you were the superior officer of Marko Samardzija; correct?

 5        A.   I don't know which answer to give you to explain I was not.  And

 6     how am I supposed to explain my role in that case and in that unit up to

 7     August?  If it can be of any assistance.  I refused to be the commander

 8     of that unit for my personal reasons, and some of the suspicions I had at

 9     the time unfortunately came true.  However, when it came to the moment

10     when the unit was supposed to go into combat, a Serbian officer does not

11     decline to serve because among other virtues he has the virtue of valour

12     and honour, and that is why then I accepted to be the commander.  All the

13     way up to then, I was just the commanding officer engaged in completely

14     different assignments, mainly to do with the establishment and training

15     of the unit.

16             The command of the unit had two levels:  Group occupations and

17     staff combat drills.  Because people who occupied those positions in the

18     command never actually did these things.  I, on the other hand, had

19     knowledge about All People's Defence and the regulations enabled me to do

20     this.  So my job was to establish the battalion and train the battalion.

21     And in communication, some other terms were perhaps sometimes used.

22        Q.   Now, in regard -- looking at the answer you just gave, I'd like

23     to ask you this:  In regard to this operation, do I understand you to say

24     that you accepted to be the commander?  Yes or no.

25        A.   I accepted the duty of commander in August, and this is July.  In

Page 46224

 1     the end of August, I received the order appointing me.

 2        Q.   Now going back to this same answer that I had just read out to

 3     you in part, am I correct in understanding that at that day -

 4     10 July 1992 - you did have communication with Marko Samardzija?

 5        A.   You're asking me?

 6        Q.   Yeah.  I want you to confirm what you said.  You said -- I'll

 7     read you the sentence.  You said:

 8             "The assignment of the unit of which Marko Samardzija was a

 9     member, after gathering Muslim men and after the security people arrived,

10     was to let them go home.  I repeated that to Marko, as far as I can

11     remember."

12             That means you did have communication with Marko Samardzija on

13     the 10th of July, 1992, at Biljani.  That's what your answer means;

14     right?

15        A.   Yes.  But I have to emphasise once again because it will make it

16     easier for both you and me.  The assignment, when I said to let them go

17     home, I meant that the members of that unit should go home after

18     finishing their assignment because there was no other assignment.  And my

19     communication with Marko was the second communication, because the first

20     communication he had was with the assistant commander for morale

21     guidance, legal, and religious affairs.  I was not there at the moment he

22     called -- they called me, and I repeated what was said to them before:

23     When you finish this, go home.  Because I explained to you before, these

24     people were not in the barracks.  They were in their own homes.  They

25     guarded their own villages, standing guard and doing patrol, and we had a

Page 46225

 1     list of them as members of the battalion.  And I've told you the same

 2     thing in my previous answer.

 3        Q.   So Marko called you, contacted you, told you something strange

 4     was happening, and your evidence is:  Send the men home.  Right?

 5        A.   That's only one talk.  I would remember.  Marko never told me

 6     that.  He never even confirmed it when he came to the station when I saw

 7     him.  He didn't say anything was afoot.  And finally, I couldn't even

 8     know that.

 9        Q.   Right.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, I see there is about, by my computer,

12     one minute to go in the court day and probably to get the next sentence

13     out would take me more than that one minute.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll adjourn here today.

15             Mr. Kevac, we'll continue tomorrow morning at 9.00.  Can I advise

16     you not to discuss with anybody else about your testimony while you are

17     giving evidence here.  But it does not prohibit you from getting opinion,

18     consultation from any lawyer if you so wish.

19             But, Mr. Robinson, the Chamber finds no basis to assign counsel

20     for the witness at the moment.  The case of Mr. Tomo Kovac was different

21     and not comparable to this witness.  He was once interviewed as a suspect

22     by the Prosecutor and with counsel assigned, and in another proceeding he

23     was already assigned counsel.  So that was the basis on which we allowed

24     counsel to be assigned to Tomo Kovac.  Hearing is adjourned.

25                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.47 p.m.,

Page 46226

 1                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 30th day

 2                           of January, 2014, at 9.00 a.m.