Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 46625

 1                           Thursday, 6 February 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             Yes, Mr. Harvey.

 8             MR. HARVEY:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.

 9             May I introduce Lucy Turner, who is a graduate of the

10     University of East Anglia in philosophy and law and has been with my team

11     since the beginning of the year.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Before we continue today, the Chamber was informed

13     of the -- or rather inquired of the possibility of extended sitting

14     today, but due to the Chamber's circumstances, it's not possible to have

15     an extended sitting today.  So I'll leave it to the parties how to

16     proceed under the circumstances.

17             Yes.  Good morning, Mr. Orlovic.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  There is a technical

20     problem in the French booth.  Their microphones are not working at all.

21                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

22             JUDGE KWON:  There is a technical problem in the French booth.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  We think, Your Honour, that it is working now.

24     1, 2, 1, 2.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, yes.  Judge Lattanzi is receiving the

Page 46626

 1     translation.

 2             Yes, Mr. Zec.  Please proceed.

 3             MR. ZEC:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Good morning, everyone.

 4                           WITNESS:  MIHAJLO ORLOVIC [Resumed]

 5                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 6                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zec:

 7        Q.   Good morning to you, Mr. Orlovic.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  We are hearing French on the English

 9     channel.  Could you sort it out.

10             If you could continue.

11             MR. ZEC:

12        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Orlovic.

13        A.   Good morning.

14        Q.   You told us in your statement that you were a journalist at

15     Sanski Most Radio in 1992.  It is correct, is it, that after the

16     take-over of the power in Sanski Most in late April 1992 and upon the

17     orders of the Crisis Staff, you and Miodrag Despot took over the

18     functioning of the Sanski Most Radio?

19        A.   Can I start answering?  I was employed with Radio Sanski Most,

20     and I only continued to work there, not on anybody's orders.  I just came

21     to work like every day.

22        Q.   In question 22 of your statement, you were asked whether it is

23     true that you received a telephone call to complain about the content of

24     the radio programme as being Serb nationalist.  You said this was not

25     true and that the radio tried to be objective and up to date.  The

Page 46627

 1     reality is, Mr. Orlovic, that after the take-over the radio was a Serb

 2     radio station controlled by the Crisis Staff; right?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   In response to question 76, you said that in June or July 1992

 5     there was a tournament of peace held in Sanski Most where Muslims and

 6     Croats played basketball for peace.  In fact, Mr. Orlovic, initiatives

 7     like this took place in the period before the take-over of the power in

 8     Sanski Most in April 1992, and you called the initiatives like this

 9     "peacenik hogwash"; right?

10        A.   I was a member of the board of directors of the women's

11     basketball club Sana and together we organised the peace tournament.  I

12     can't remember anymore whether it was in June or July 1992.  It was a

13     long time ago.  The tournament was very well attended and several Croat

14     and Bosniak players also took part.

15        Q.   In question 6 you were asked:

16             "Did the Serbs in Sanski Most publicly state that 5.500 Serbs who

17     were killed in the Second World War should be avenged or was there fear

18     that history would repeat itself?"

19             You said:

20             "Absolutely not."

21             And then you explained that there was fear among Serbs of a

22     repetition of 1941.  In fact, Mr. Orlovic, you were among those who were

23     actively engaged in spreading the fear among the Serbs, saying that

24     genocide against Serbs must not be repeated; right?

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.

Page 46628

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Line 11, the witness also said, and

 3     it's missing from the record, "it's not hogwash."

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Do you confirm that, Mr. Orlovic?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said it's not hogwash or window

 6     dressing, because it's a very ugly term.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Now can you answer the question.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Sanski Most in 1941 on the

 9     1st and 2nd of August, 5.500 Serbs and Jews were killed.  Many survived

10     these atrocities.  Some are descendents of the people who were killed.

11     And all the time since that event to date, they counsel their descendents

12     not to be fooled like they had been fooled, lest they be taken to

13     execution sites and killed.  So that fear really existed and it was a

14     justified fear.  There is nothing bad in the fear itself.  Fear is

15     necessary for survival.  I personally never spread fear, and in fact, I

16     wrote a book, accounts of people who survived Susnjar.  And as somebody

17     who is involved in that line of work in proving the truth, you cannot say

18     that they are spreading fear.

19             MR ZEC:  Can we have a look at 65 ter 25963.  And this is an

20     article from "Podgrmecke Novine."

21        Q.   We see your name on the top of the page.  You wrote this article,

22     Mr. Orlovic; right?

23        A.   Yes, I wrote that.  But I can tell you straight away that all

24     that is written here are not my words, because the person who edited this

25     newspaper changed a lot and added words of his own.  Later, if necessary,

Page 46629

 1     I can explain.

 2        Q.   Well, let's see what it says.  The article starts by saying:

 3             "Sanski Most has well learned its lesson from the

 4     Second World War.  Five and a half thousand Serbs, and perhaps even more,

 5     were heinously killed at the hand of their neighbours - Muslims and

 6     Croats."

 7             A few lines below:

 8             "When the Ustasha serpent reared its head again and when the Serb

 9     people rose up in Krajina to save their lives, face and honour, the

10     clouds of dark premonition crept in, slowly gathering over our parts too.

11     The genocide must not be repeated - were the words being uttered by every

12     Serb."

13             This relates, Mr. Orlovic, to the Second World War and what,

14     according to you, was about to happen to Serbs after Croatia and Bosnia

15     moved for independence; right?

16        A.   Genocide of the kind that happened in Susnjar must not repeat

17     itself to no one, including the Serbs.  There are many words here,

18     passages added by the person who edited this newspaper, but the gist is

19     true.  At least my words, that it cannot be, it must not be repeated.  It

20     must not happen to anyone in the world.

21        Q.   The second section you named "peacenik hogwash."  You refer here

22     to the winter of 1991 when, as you explain here, various meetings and

23     rallies were held during this period.  At the end of this section --

24             MR ZEC:  Which is English page 2, B/C/S second column.

25        Q.   -- you say:

Page 46630

 1             "Apart from that struggle at the meetings, they developed a

 2     campaign of so-called 'peacenik' ..."

 3             MR ZEC:  In English, second page:

 4        Q.   "... they developed a campaign of so-called 'peacenik' whose

 5     objective was to deaden the Serb people after they acquire strong chains

 6     and halters.  Afterwards it would be easier for them.  Various meetings

 7     are held, which looked like hogwash.  Proclamations are sent out, rallies

 8     organised, panels, petitions signed.  One or two Serbs would stray among

 9     the 'peacenik' but would quickly get ahold of themselves and come back.

10     The 'peaceniks' were the darkest and uglier side of the SDA and HDZ,

11     which events would also confirm."

12             This is, Mr. Orlovic, what you wrote regarding the peace rallies

13     that took place before the take-over of the power in 1992 which you

14     falsely represent in your statement as taking place after the take-over

15     June or July 1992; right?

16        A.   There was a series of meetings, a series of rallies, and people

17     showed up who later joined national ranks.  So if you look at it that

18     way, people were hypocritical.  On the one hand, they were saying they

19     want peace, and on the other hand they were working against peace.

20     That's what it looked like at that time.  And from where I'm sitting even

21     now, when you look at it objectively, nothing really changed.  Simply,

22     hypocrisy ruled in practice.

23        Q.   Here in this portion just above this same text, you describe

24     Redzo Kurbegovic, from the SDA, as not the brightest spark.  Hasib Komber

25     [phoen], Refiris [phoen], Faik Biscevic, the fat and pumpkin-like,

Page 46631

 1     Ismet Sabic, a pockmarked, and you say other pitiful names.  You say you

 2     were puzzled that the SDS was even talking to such people.  This was your

 3     description, Mr. Orlovic, of members of other ethnic groups; right?

 4        A.   It's not really my description.  I repeat, there was general

 5     propaganda prevailing at the time, and if you submit a story, a piece of

 6     writing somewhere, that text is subjected to all sorts of modifications.

 7     I did not put these epithets here.  They must have been added.  But I

 8     want to tell you something really important:  Believing that one day the

 9     truth will finally prevail, I kept all these documents both in my

10     work-place in the radio and at home.  Unfortunately, on the 10th of

11     October, 1995, the building of the radio was set on fire.  And later --

12        Q.   Mr. Orlovic --

13        A.   -- also when the Muslim forces --

14        Q.   [Overlapping speakers]

15        A.   I was just about to say that if that hadn't happened, I would now

16     have a very precious document.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Orlovic.  Please answer the question.

18             Yes.  Please continue, Mr. Zec.

19             MR ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20        Q.   Next section of this article you called:  Sanski Most is Serb

21     nevertheless.  You start by saying:

22             "The Serbian Democratic Party is working feverishly to pull the

23     Serb people out from under the fierce Islamic clutches and

24     Vatican knife."

25             You talk here, Mr. Orlovic, about the events that took place in

Page 46632

 1     the period before April 1992 and leading up to the Serb take-over of

 2     Sanski Most; right?

 3        A.   These events happened in April and May and throughout 1992.

 4        Q.   Well, it's not throughout.  This is up to April.  And next

 5     section, which is English page 3, which is the last section of this

 6     article, you say:  Life afterwards.  And here you refer to 20 April 1992,

 7     and you say:

 8             "It is from the newly formed Crisis Staff that they are

 9     requesting that the problem should start.  Miodrag Despot and I are at

10     work.  The programme starts with a delay and the radio airs for the first

11     time as a Serb one.  That day, as per arrangement, all the Muslims do not

12     come into work in any of the companies ..."

13             This is, Mr. Orlovic, about you taking over the functioning of

14     the Sanski Most radio, 20 April 1992; right?

15        A.   What it says here is that I came to work on that day in April,

16     like any other day, Miodrag Despot and I as journalists.  And Muslims and

17     Croats who had worked earlier in Radio Sanski Most had agreed out of fear

18     or whatever reasons they had and didn't come to work, didn't show up.

19     That's it.

20             MR ZEC:  I tender this article, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll admit it.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6645, Your Honours.

23             MR ZEC:

24        Q.   After the conflict started, you were part of the Sanski Most

25     delegation visiting soldiers at the front lines together with other

Page 46633

 1     members of the municipal leadership, Rasula, Vrkes, Anicic [phoen], and

 2     others; right?

 3        A.   I don't remember I ever went with Rasula and Vrkes and

 4     Janicic [phoen] somewhere.  But I did sometimes go to tour Serb lines,

 5     and my assignment was to see how people live in order that their

 6     families, their children and wives, may live peacefully and normally at

 7     home.  But that I went with Rasula and the others, no, I don't know about

 8     that.

 9             MR ZEC:  Can we have 65 ter 25982.

10        Q.   And this is a conclusion of the Sanski Most Crisis Staff from

11     June 1992.  And if you look at the document, it provides a list of people

12     to go visit soldiers and your name is there; right?

13        A.   Yes, it's my name, but I didn't go.

14             MR ZEC:  I tender this document.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know why.

16             MR ZEC:  Mr. President, I will tender this document.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6646, Your Honours.

19             MR ZEC:

20        Q.   And while talking to soldiers, you discussed issues such as

21     defending the Serb state and preventing genocide against Serbs; right?

22     Mr. Orlovic --

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   -- when you were went to see soldiers, you talked to them about

25     issues such as defending Serb state, preventing genocide against Serbs;

Page 46634

 1     right?

 2        A.   No, I didn't go together with these gentlemen into the field.  I

 3     said I sometimes went as a journalist, as a reporter, only to meet with

 4     those people, to see how they lived and what they were doing so that

 5     their families could be in peace.  But I didn't go with these gentlemen.

 6             MR ZEC:  Can we have --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I was not part of any

 8     forum.

 9             MR ZEC:

10        Q.   Mr. Orlovic, there are people who translate everything you say.

11     When you finish your answer, you have to stop and wait.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Also hear him out, please.

13             Please continue.

14             MR ZEC:  Can we have 65 ter --

15             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

16             MR ZEC:  65 ter 25964.

17        Q.   And this is an article from "Podgrmecke Novine," interview with

18     Miroslav Radakovic, chief of staff of the 6th Brigade.  You wrote this

19     article; right?

20        A.   [Interpretation] I can't see my signature.  Where does it say I

21     wrote this?

22             MR ZEC:  Can we have next page in B/C/S and English.

23        Q.   You see now at the end of the article your name.

24        A.   Then probably I did.  If I read it, I would remember.

25             MR ZEC:  Can we go back the first page.

Page 46635

 1        Q.   And in the first paragraph of the article, it says:

 2             "Its fighters have defended the Serb people in the Krajina from

 3     resurrectment, Ustasha ghosts, and they have saved their hometown of

 4     Sanski Most from a new genocide, from a repetition of Susnjari, and then

 5     went on a glorious quest to liberate the Serbian lands."

 6             This is your comment, Mr. Orlovic, related to the topic you

 7     discussed with a soldier; right?

 8        A.   I repeat again, there were various editors, and now I can't

 9     remember whether my text read exactly like this in the original.  All

10     that I published during the war can be called into question because there

11     were always modifications made to my writing that I could not influence.

12        Q.   At English page 2, in the B/C/S second column, under the section

13     called "From Plitvice to Grabez," it says:

14             "The political situation in these territories of ours had

15     worsened around this period.  Realising what was in store for the Serbian

16     people, the brigade command was working harshly to set up a defence, for

17     which they received huge support from the people, the SDS, and the

18     authorities."

19             This refers, Mr. Orlovic, to the period prior to the take-over of

20     the power in the Sanski Most when the Serb people were being organised;

21     right?

22        A.   That relates to April, yes.  No, the basis of all this, at that

23     time, it was thought that strong organisation is necessary because people

24     feared for their lives.  They feared that 1941 would repeat itself.

25        Q.   Mr. --

Page 46636

 1        A.   I can --

 2        Q.   Please keep in mind that we have your statement in evidence.

 3     You've explained a lot of that.

 4             MR ZEC:  At English page 4 and at the B/C/S last column, under

 5     the section called "Genocide Prevented," it says:

 6             "Against their will, our brigade's fighters were sucked into a

 7     bloody, ethnic, religious, and civil war."

 8             A few lines below, it says:

 9             "When the war started to rage in Croatia, dark clouds were also

10     gathering over the former Bosnia-Herzegovina, where the Croat and Muslim

11     factions tried to take advantage of the situation and subdue the Serb

12     people.  However, due to their historical experiences from 1914 and 1941,

13     the people of the Krajina realised what kind of situation they were in,

14     and organised themselves to defend the Serbian people and liquidate the

15     extreme enemy groups that were openly trying to take over Serbian

16     territories, subjecting them to unprecedented examples of genocide.  It

17     was simultaneously a warning to stop the dark forces of the past and

18     prevent a repetition of terror and genocide."

19        Q.   So, Mr. Orlovic, this refers to the First and Second World War

20     and the activities undertaken to organise Serbs to defend their

21     territories from other ethnic groups, Muslims and Croats, as Bosnia moved

22     for independence in 1990s; right?

23        A.   This is what my collocutor said and that's what he thought.

24             MR ZEC:  I tender this article, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 46637

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6647, Your Honours.

 2             MR ZEC:

 3        Q.   Response to question 27 [Realtime transcript read in error "77"],

 4     you say that in a situation in which all PTT and road connections were

 5     cut, decisions were made in the SDS Municipal Board for the benefit of

 6     all.  Mr. Orlovic, this Chamber has received evidence that Crisis Staff

 7     members were in communication with both the ARK and the SDS republican

 8     authorities during this period.

 9             MR ZEC:  This is in P2613, P3399, and P3919.

10        Q.   So the reality is, Mr. Orlovic, after the take-over of the power

11     in Sanski Most, the Crisis Staff continued to communicate with the

12     regional and republican Serb authorities; right?

13        A.   You're asking me whether the Crisis Staff continued to

14     communicate?  I don't know that.  I was not a member of the Crisis Staff.

15     I know that in spring, all communications - including telephone lines -

16     were down or very bad.  So if they did, I don't know how they managed.  I

17     don't know.

18        Q.   And you, yourself, were able to send news reports from

19     Sanski Most to the mass media; correct?

20        A.   I could sometimes.  It depended on the communications.  There

21     were very few mass media who were willing to receive information from

22     Sanski Most or any other places that were under Serb control.  I was a

23     correspondent for Radio Sarajevo.

24        Q.   Let's -- I'll show you one article.

25             MR ZEC:  65 ter 05015.

Page 46638

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, I can't find the

 4     place where it says in paragraph 77 --

 5             MR ZEC:  27.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- what has just been alleged.  It

 7     says "77" in the transcript.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  No, 27.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And second of all, I would kindly

10     ask the Trial Chamber to allow the witness to answer.  He has been

11     interrupted too many times.

12             JUDGE KWON:  No, that's -- the Chamber is taking care of that

13     matter.  It was 27 that was referred to.

14             By the way, do you have your statement with you, Mr. Orlovic?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What number?  What page?

16             JUDGE KWON:  No, I was just checking.  When necessary, it's okay

17     for you to consult your statement when referred to by Mr. Zec.

18             Yes, shall we continue.

19             MR ZEC:  Can we have 65 ter 05015.  And this is an article from

20     "Glas," dated 21 April, 1992.

21        Q.   This article talks about the take-over of Sanski Most and the

22     arrival of the 6th Brigade to the town.  You wrote this article,

23     Mr. Orlovic, that was published in "Glas"; right?

24        A.   Probably.  They couldn't make it up, but I --

25        Q.   Well, we see your name under the article.

Page 46639

 1        A.   Of course.

 2             MR ZEC:  I tender this article, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Where do we see his name?

 4             MR ZEC:  Probably in English it's not translated, but if you look

 5     at the end of the first section in the B/C/S --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  So we need a revised English translation?

 7             MR ZEC:  I think so, yes, Mr. President.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  Also, Mr. President, I don't think that the

 9     article -- just simply because he wrote an article is enough to make

10     something admissible unless we hear some question directed at the content

11     of the article.

12             JUDGE KWON:  It's about the communication, I take it?  "Glas" is

13     published where, Mr. Orlovic?

14             MR ZEC:

15        Q.   Mr. Orlovic, this was published in Banja Luka, "Glas"; correct?

16        A.   Yes, it was published in Banja Luka.  Perhaps you would like to

17     tell me how we reached Banja Luka, whether it was by phone or whether we

18     travelled there.  Yes.

19             MR ZEC:  [Overlapping speakers] [indiscernible]

20             JUDGE KWON:  So we'll admit it.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6648, Your Honours.

22             MR ZEC:

23        Q.   Mr. Orlovic, you were --

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, one more objection.  I'm

25     not sure that on page 12, line 22, that the document numbers have been

Page 46640

 1     properly recorded.  The numbers do not meet our expectations, I would

 2     say.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Probably Mr. Zec could assist you out of the

 4     courtroom.

 5             That said, we can continue.

 6             MR ZEC:

 7        Q.   Mr. Orlovic, you were appointed by the Crisis Staff to report on

 8     the situation in Sanski Most to the Serb mass media in Serbia and Serb

 9     claimed areas in Bosnia; right?

10        A.   I don't remember that I was appointed.  However, I made sure to

11     publicise everything that was going on in Sanski Most.  People craved

12     information.  Whenever I could publish something, I did my best to do it.

13             MR ZEC:  Can we have a look at 65 ter 25973.

14        Q.   And these are conclusions of the Sanski Most Crisis Staff from

15     May 1992.

16             MR ZEC:  We need to look at item number 9.

17        Q.   And item number 9 says that information service reporting from

18     Sanski Most for the RTV Banja Luka and the RTV Belgrade should be done by

19     Predrag Predojevic and Mihajlo Orlovic.

20             So your role, Mr. Orlovic, was to make sure that the interests

21     and views of the Serb Crisis Staff were publicly presented; right?

22        A.   The Crisis Staff probably did deal with that, with those

23     problems.  However, it was my own initiative.  I made arrangements with

24     the materiel board of RT Banja Luka.  I asked to be their correspondent.

25     During the war I did only that.  I was not engaged anywhere else.  It was

Page 46641

 1     a good opportunity for me to show what was going on in Sanski Most.

 2     Myself and Predrag Predojevic were together at first and then he left the

 3     job and we were joined by a new colleague who recorded the shows instead

 4     of Predojevic.

 5             MR ZEC:  I tender this document, Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive it.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6649, Your Honours.

 8             MR ZEC:  Can we have 65 ter 25993.  And now we're going to look

 9     at some of the reports.

10        Q.   And you're going to see on the screen a news report for a news

11     programme called Dnevnik that was broadcast on 26 May 1992.  So,

12     Mr. Orlovic, you prepared a report that was broadcast on the radio, of

13     which summary we see on the screen; correct?

14             MR ZEC:  I think we lost the document.  We need 65 ter -- yes.

15     We need 65 ter 25993.  It was there a moment ago.

16        Q.   Mr. Orlovic, this is a --

17        A.   Well, this is just a title.

18        Q.   Correct.  That's what presenter on the radio would read into the

19     news programme and they would play your report which is audio recorded,

20     and we see here it's about one minute long.  But this is the summary of

21     your report from Sanski Most that you sent; correct?

22        A.   Well, yes, this is a summary.  I don't see anything bad here.

23     Actually, it's all good because it's about disarming.

24        Q.   So it is not then true that communications were not possible.

25     Not only they were possible but you personally were responsible for

Page 46642

 1     publicising the views and actions of the Sanski Most Crisis Staff;

 2     correct?

 3        A.   Communications were impaired.  We had electricity by spoonfuls.

 4     When there was electricity, we could communicate, but those moments were

 5     rare.  We had local links with Banja Luka.  Only when the corridor of

 6     life was established and when we could communicate with Belgrade could we

 7     also communicate with Serbia and abroad.  Our frequent communications

 8     with Banja Luka was reduced to actually taking our materials there by

 9     bus.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.

11             JUDGE KWON:  All right.  Just a second.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You cannot interrupt.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Well, I don't follow.  You should not interrupt the

14     translation.

15             MR ZEC:  Mr. President, the witness answered the question.  There

16     is no need for him to go on about [Overlapping speakers]

17             JUDGE KWON:  But I don't know where -- read his answer.  Which

18     one is unnecessary?

19             "Our frequent communications with Banja Luka was reduced to

20     actually taking our materials there by bus."

21             So you find it unnecessary?

22             MR ZEC:  If in the interest of time, I think his first part of

23     the answer was --

24             JUDGE KWON:  I think we are losing more time.  Shall we continue.

25             MR ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President.  And I will tender this

Page 46643

 1     document.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll admit this.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6650, Your Honours.

 4             MR ZEC:

 5        Q.   We just saw your report of 26 May 1992, which was around the time

 6     the area of Sanski Most called Mahala was attacked by the Serb forces.

 7     You referred to Mahala in response to several questions put to you,

 8     question 12, 32, 55, 56.  You say that you don't think there was any

 9     heavy shelling in Mahala.  Mr. Orlovic, this Chamber has received

10     evidence that Serb soldiers forced Mahala residents to gather at the

11     training ground, following which Mahala was shelled and buildings burned

12     down.  Thousands of unarmed non-Serbs were detained and many killed in

13     the attack.

14             MR ZEC:  P718, P3313, P3634, P3928.

15        Q.   So it is not correct, Mr. Orlovic, that there was no heavy

16     shelling of Mahala.  Mahala was shelled, buildings were destroyed, and

17     civilians killed.  That was what happened there; right?

18        A.   Perhaps two or three years later I passed through Mahala and I

19     saw houses, which means that Mahala had not been burned.  A few of the

20     houses had been destroyed, perhaps later or maybe even during the

21     operation when illegal arms were seized.  I don't know what the operation

22     was known as at the time.  When things were happening in Mahala,

23     journalists were not allowed access which means that we were not able to

24     visit that part of the theater of war, and I don't mean the "theater of

25     war" but this part or this area where this operation was ongoing.

Page 46644

 1        Q.   Let's hear the Sanski Most radio broadcast from late May 1992

 2     around the time Mahala was attacked.

 3             MR ZEC:  This is in P725 and we have provided the transcripts to

 4     the interpreters.  The portion we will hear is at English page 7, B/C/S

 5     page 11 to 12 of the transcript.  This clip is at 15 minutes and

 6     13 seconds to 16 minutes and 21 seconds of the tape.

 7             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "... all the struggle and

 8     retaliation will be in vain.  You are not capable of standing up to the

 9     forces of the Army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the

10     statement of the Serb armed forces command states.  It adds, your

11     resistance will force us to destroy and devastate your villages which

12     means that you will not be able to live with us in these territories.  If

13     you do want to go on living in these territories, accept co-operation,

14     hand over all the weapons and military equipment, and surrender to the

15     Serb authorities all the extremists who forced you to fight.  As long as

16     one of you has a weapon, you risk the destruction of your houses and

17     families, to collect all weapons and hand them over to the public

18     security station or the Crisis Staff.  The roads are gree, fire won't be

19     opened until the deadline.  The following villages have to hand over

20     their weapons:  Trnovo, Sasina, Sehovci, Poljak, Pobrijezje, Kijevo,

21     Vrhpolje, Hrustovo, Skrljevita and Kruhari.  Again, we call on you to be

22     sensible and act as we did with Mahala.  Arrest or bring the extremists

23     who are forcing you to get killed to the public security station."

24             MR ZEC:

25        Q.   So, Mr. Orlovic, this was the reality.  We heard on this radio

Page 46645

 1     broadcast that as long as one of you has a weapon, you risk the

 2     destruction of your houses and families.  And the destruction of Mahala

 3     was used as an example and a threat to non-Serbs as to what awaited them;

 4     right?

 5        A.   I don't know whether that was a threat or a warning.  It's a

 6     matter of subjective assessment.  I suppose it was a warning, according

 7     to which if something went wrong, things would go the way they would go.

 8     This was probably an announcement which was sent and aired on

 9     Radio Sanski Most and probably it was a warning.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It doesn't say "destruction of

13     Mahala," it says "you will force us to do what we did in Mahala."  In the

14     original, it doesn't say that Mahala was destroyed.

15             JUDGE KWON:  It says "as we did with Mahala" --

16             MR ZEC:  And --

17             JUDGE KWON:  -- that's all.

18             Yes, Mr. Zec.

19             MR ZEC:  And the transcript also of the tape says, "You will

20     force us to destroy and devastate your villages," among others things.

21             May I continue, Mr. President?

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

23             MR ZEC:

24        Q.   After Mahala, Mr. Orlovic, the Serb forces attacked other

25     non-Serb forces such as Begejci and Hrustovo.  After Serb forces entered

Page 46646

 1     Begejci, they rounded up non-Serb civilians and forced them to leave.

 2     Between 20 and 30 men were taken towards the Vrhpolje bridge, including

 3     Enes Dizdarevic [phoen], who was 16, and Cacir Begic [phoen], who was 75

 4     at the time, and they shot them as they were ordered to jump into the

 5     river.

 6             MR ZEC:  This is in P691, P692, P48353.

 7        Q.   At Hrustovo, the Serb forces killed over 20 civilians that took

 8     shelter in the garage of Ibrahim Medanovic, including young children?

 9             MR ZEC:  P714, P715, P4853.

10        Q.   And you knew, Mr. Orlovic, that ordinary civilians were killed in

11     Sanski Most, didn't you?

12        A.   At that time there was a lot of rumor, a lot of propaganda.  All

13     the stories including murders, killings, and destruction, I always took

14     them with a grain of salt.  I never believed them.  Even 20 years after

15     the end of the war, I still don't believe that things like that happened.

16     All the cases that did occur, they cannot be seen as falling under a

17     system or part of some organised activity.  Those were individual

18     incidents that should be condemned.  When you mentioned Hrustovo, let me

19     give you just a few examples.  In Hrustovo, in 1941, a lot of Serbs were

20     killed.  Zilhad Kljucanin wrote a book, "It is a Crime To Forget a

21     Crime."  There is another author whose name escapes me at the moment.  It

22     says in that book that on the 15th of April there was a parade of some

23     300 armed people there.

24        Q.   Mr. Orlovic, I think you are talking about 1941.

25        A.   No, that was in 1992.  I have just moved on to 1992.  I did

Page 46647

 1     mention 1941, but just in passing.

 2        Q.   Let's keep on this topic.  You say in response to question 12

 3     that after Mahala, Muslim extremists who did not want to surrender

 4     weapons withdrew to Caplje and Hrustovo where the fighting with them

 5     continued.  Mr. Orlovic, while you claim this happened, you reported to

 6     the Serb mass media on 29 May 1992 that it is -- that is between the

 7     attacks on Mahala and Hrustovo - that the situation in Sanski Most was

 8     calm but tense; right?

 9        A.   Yes, calm but tense.  Because nobody ever knew what was going on.

10     We didn't know one day what would happen the next day.  The situation was

11     difficult and there was a lot of unrest.

12             MR ZEC:  Can we have 65 ter 25994.

13        Q.   And this is another news reports of yours for 29 May 1992 saying

14     that the situation in Sanski Most is mostly calm but there is a lot of

15     tension.  While we know, Mr. Orlovic, that Serb forces had already begun

16     to destroy non-Serb villages to the ground, killing and detaining many;

17     right?

18        A.   I sent this report, I don't know to whom.  Its objective was to

19     calm the situation down, to eliminate fear.  I wanted people to believe

20     that life was still possible.  And as to whether there was destruction,

21     as you said it, and those are very serious words, and razing villages to

22     the ground, none of the villages were leveled.  It was two or three years

23     later when abandoned house just fell into disrepair.  Serb houses looked

24     much worse, especially after the 10 October 1995.

25             MR ZEC:  I tender this document, Mr. President.

Page 46648

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6651, Your Honours.

 3             MR ZEC:

 4        Q.   Let's see what you wrote later in the mass media regarding these

 5     events?

 6             MR ZEC:  Can we have 65 ter 25965.

 7        Q.   And this is another article of yours in "Podgrmecke Novine."

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript perhaps.  Line 10, it

 9     was not recorded that the witness mentioned a date when Serb houses

10     looked much worse, and the date was 10 October 1995.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, it will be checked.

12             Please continue.

13             MR ZEC:  English page 3.

14        Q.   At the beginning of the section called "The fire spills over

15     towards Vrhpolje," you say:

16             "If any of the unfortunate Muslims who had realised that there

17     would be no victory over the Serbs and who wanted peace tried to return

18     weapons, they would be killed, even slaughtered by the extremists,

19     something that Vrhpolje Hodja especially stood out in, that handful of

20     the arrogant wretches with the Koran in their pockets and rifles in their

21     hands, attacked the Serb soldiers who come to peacefully take over the

22     weapons."

23             So this is your story, Mr. Orlovic, regarding the victims of the

24     Serb attack on Vrhpolje.  You say the hodza killed them; right?

25        A.   It doesn't say that it was a Serb attack on the village.  That's

Page 46649

 1     number one.  Second of all, I repeat:  There was a lot of rumor and

 2     propaganda.  Many pieces of news that reached me came from people.  I

 3     conveyed that news, but I was never in a situation to be able to check

 4     the veracity of such news.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

 6     the relevant Serbian part because that part is not on the screen.

 7             MR ZEC:  It's under the section:  "Fire spills over towards

 8     Vrhpolje," and I read to the witness -- I read to him the relevant

 9     passage, so I don't see much need to wait more.

10             JUDGE KWON:  But it's always important to show the passage when

11     you read out from the document.

12             MR ZEC:  And I believe I said -- but it's okay.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             MR ZEC:  And I tender this article, Mr. President.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive it.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6652, Your Honours.

17             MR ZEC:

18        Q.   You said in response to question 66 that it is not true that the

19     radio broadcast appeals calling on wealthy Muslims and intellectuals to

20     surrender.  The reality is, Mr. Orlovic, members of the non-Serb

21     populations were forced to make statements over the Sana radio calling on

22     other non-Serbs to surrender; right?

23        A.   I don't know about that, but I know that Muslims came to

24     Radio Sanski Most telling people to surrender, and I asked them whether

25     they had been compelled to do it, coerced, and when they told me they had

Page 46650

 1     not been, and I told them then, If there is any kind of coercion

 2     involved, I don't want you to do this.  One of them read it so nicely

 3     that I, as a professional, was in awe.  I, myself, would have read it

 4     much -- much worse, but he who was not a professional read it so

 5     beautifully --

 6        Q.   [Overlapping speakers]

 7        A.   -- the first time.

 8        Q.   Let's hear the Sanski Most radio broadcast.  A prominent Muslim,

 9     Faik Biscevic, was forced to make a public statement for the interest of

10     the Serb authorities.

11             MR ZEC:  This is P725.  And the portion you will hear starts

12     English page 5, B/C/S page 9 of the transcript.

13             And I think, Mr. President, we can play this without translation

14     because we have translation in Sanction.  And I note for the record that

15     the portion -- this portion starts at 1 -- 11 minutes and goes through 11

16     minutes, 55 seconds of the tape.

17                           [Audio-tape played]

18             MR ZEC:  We paused at 11 minutes -- we paused at 11 minutes and

19     55 seconds.

20        Q.   Mr. Orlovic, this --

21             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, in terms of transcript what's the

22     page number?  Page 5 in English?

23             MR ZEC:  Yes, Mr. President.  It starts from page 5 in English,

24     B/C/S page 9, and goes over to the next page.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes.

Page 46651

 1             MR ZEC:

 2        Q.   Mr. Orlovic, this was Mr. Biscevic stating that Sanski Most is a

 3     Serb town and warning that Sanski Most could be destroyed until final

 4     capitulation.  This was the message Radio Sana broadcast to which you

 5     refer in answer to question 55 regarding disarming, that unless all

 6     weapons were handed over by the Muslims and Croats they would be

 7     destroyed.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, are you dealing with question 66 or

 9     55?

10             MR ZEC:  Fifty-five, Mr. President, I'm sorry.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  And page -- yes, you refer to 66.  But okay.

12     Yes.

13             MR ZEC:

14        Q.   So this was the kind of message that was broadcast on the radio;

15     right?

16        A.   Yes, I said a moment ago I did not want to name the man but you

17     did so, Faik Biscevic.  I asked him two or three times, If you are doing

18     this under coercion, under duress, tell me, I will find a way.  But he

19     told me, I am doing this out of my own free will.  I don't know if he was

20     lying, but I was surprised at how well he read it, without a single

21     mistake.

22        Q.   Okay.

23             MR ZEC:  Well, let's hear one more portion of this same

24     announcement.

25             THE WITNESS:  Okay.

Page 46652

 1             MR. ZEC:  This portion starts at 12 minutes, 35 seconds, through

 2     14 minutes and 35 seconds of the tape, and I think we don't need

 3     translation because we can see it on the screen.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Page number?

 5             MR ZEC:  For the transcript, it should be -- it's the same as

 6     previous, sorry.  So it starts English page 5, goes 6 and 7; and then

 7     B/C/S page 9, goes to 10 and 11.  And this should be -- so this portion

 8     should be English page 6, B/C/S page 10 of the transcript.

 9                           [Audio-tape played]

10             MR ZEC:

11        Q.   So, Mr. Orlovic, it is not correct, is it, that the radio did not

12     broadcast appeals calling on prominent Muslims to surrender?  We just

13     heard exactly that; right?

14        A.   [Interpretation] This was this interlocutor.  As for

15     Radio Sanski Most, I mean, no information was provided from some

16     Crisis Staff or someone else for someone to surrender.  Quite simply,

17     this is what the interlocutor said -- or rather, the man who came and

18     said that.  And Radio Sanski Most did not have any information to that

19     effect about prominent Muslims and Croats.  I know many more prominent

20     Muslims and Croats than the one referred to here.

21        Q.   In response to question 34 and 68, you say that wartime poverty

22     and personal insecurity drove people to find refuge with people of their

23     own kind.  The reality is, however, that the Sana radio, Mr. Orlovic, was

24     used by the Crisis Staff to make it clear to Muslims and Croats that they

25     should leave; right?

Page 46653

 1        A.   That's not right.

 2        Q.   Well, let's hear a radio broadcast.

 3             MR ZEC:  And this is P725.  The portion we will hear starts at

 4     English page 2, B/C/S page 2 of the transcript - I think we don't need

 5     translation - and this portion starts 2 minutes, 42 seconds, through

 6     5 minutes and 2 seconds of the tape.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  But we go along with this practice, but it's very

 8     difficult to review the testimony of this witness later on.  When we read

 9     the transcript, we hear in transcript -- we have no idea what part of the

10     transcript was read out because we do not understand the B/C/S.

11             MR ZEC:  That I understand, Mr. President.  So we can --

12             JUDGE KWON:  So I'm not -- yes, but I will leave it to you,

13     but --

14             MR ZEC:  In that case --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

16             MR ZEC:  In that case, then translators can translate as the tape

17     goes.  And as I said, this is English page 2, B/C/S page 2 of the

18     transcript, and we have provided the transcript to the interpreters.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  That's better.

20                           [Audio-tape played]

21             MR ZEC:  I don't hear a translation.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we don't hear any translation.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Can you hear the English booth now?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, shall we repeat.

25             MR ZEC:  Yes, please.

Page 46654

 1                           [Audio-tape played]

 2             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "An announcement, or rather an

 3     appeal, Muslim and Croatian citizens of Sanski Most municipality, you

 4     must be aware of the trouble you have been pushed into by the policies of

 5     your irresponsible leaders who keep calling for suicidal combat

 6     operations which, in these parts, would spell self-destruction for you.

 7     Any, half-way rational person realises that propelling your people

 8     towards destruction is a crime against your own people in which the

 9     innocent would also suffer.  In order to achieve some sort of unrealistic

10     and incomprehensible goals in Bosnia-Herzegovina, Alija Izetbegovic chose

11     a war to the death of his own people as a way out of the political

12     cul-de-sac into which he pushed young men, your children, who do not

13     realise what kind of politics they are getting killed for.  This policy

14     of his and the activities of his extremist followers have been defeated

15     in our municipality and have no chance of success.  You are aware of the

16     results of these crazed and suicidal activities.  Because of the

17     unenviable position that your leaders have put you in and because of the

18     great interethnic divide which was not wanted but is present, we deem it

19     reasonable to overcome these problems by asking you to organise your life

20     in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina or another republic of the former

21     Yugoslavia where there would be no interethnic division in order for all

22     the three peoples to feel safe and secure in their areas.  It is our

23     opinion that every people should live where it will not only support but

24     also assist the authorities.  If the political and legal system in these

25     parts does not suit you, it is necessary for everyone's sake that you

Page 46655

 1     organise your life in areas easier for you.  The Sanski Most authorities

 2     will not only make it possible for you to move safely and freely but will

 3     also assist you in the process.  Again, we appeal to you to move to a

 4     state you would undoubtedly be loyal to, which would normalise life in

 5     these parts since living with mutual hatred and interethnic trust is

 6     impossible.  We expect that you will understand this appeal since this

 7     solution is the most painless and that you will respond to our call which

 8     we will send out in good time.  The Crisis Staff."

 9             MR ZEC:

10        Q.   We discussed earlier the killings and persecutions to which

11     non-Serbs were subjected.  We just heard the Crisis Staff publicly

12     informing Croats and Muslims that it is in their best interest to leave,

13     as they risk self-destruction in which the innocent will suffer.  So it

14     is not true, is it, that non-Serbs left for economic reasons.  They left

15     because it was made clear to them that Sanski Most is a Serb town in

16     which their survival was in jeopardy; right?

17        A.   It says here, "If you do not accept the system or the way it

18     functions ..." so if they wish -- you've forgotten that.  You've

19     forgotten to emphasise that.  As for the departure of Muslims and Croats,

20     it started considerably before the conflict in Sanski Most, near the bus

21     station.  And five months before that, I saw buses every day, especially

22     on Saturdays and Sundays and holidays.  They went abroad.  It was mainly

23     women and children that went abroad and this caused some fear amongst us,

24     the Serbs.  Why wouldn't we go, too?

25             When the war started -- well, it is the right of people to seek

Page 46656

 1     shelter from the war and it is also their duty.  It's better for people

 2     to save their lives rather than to expose themselves to risk.  What I

 3     need to point out in particular is that during the war in Sanski Most,

 4     there were several thousand Muslims who lived there.  And today in

 5     Sanski Most, out of 28.000 Serbs only about 1.500 are left, and that

 6     information is certainly not correct either.  So you can make this small

 7     comparison.

 8             MR ZEC:  I have nothing further, Mr. President.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

10             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, just briefly.

12                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Orlovic, can you just tell us about that

14     newspaper.  Did you work there as an editor where your interviews or

15     texts were published?

16        A.   No, I did not work as an editor, and I can say that during the

17     war I was not an editor in Radio Sanski Most at all.  I was an ordinary

18     journalist.

19        Q.   Thank you.  In these newspapers, who prepares the headlines, the

20     subheadings?  And is that sent to you for pre-authorisation before it is

21     actually published?

22        A.   This is done by the editor or the duty editor, and my texts were

23     not sent back to me for authorisation, so I cannot accept all the texts

24     that I published from 1991 to 1995, especially the radio texts that were

25     cut up in all sorts of ways.  All sorts of things were done to them.

Page 46657

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Between pages 8 and 10, what was quoted to you was

 2     that you mentioned the spectre of the Ustasha danger or something like

 3     that.  What led you to refer to that, the spectre of the Ustasha danger?

 4        A.   Sanski Most is a special place.  I said that five and a half

 5     thousand Serbs and Jews were killed in 1941.

 6        Q.   Please speak slowly.  We will finish before the break.

 7        A.   Viktor Gutic, in 1941, stated in Sanski Most, "The Serbs will be

 8     missed, but there won't be any left."  Every Serb in the territory of

 9     Sanski Most remembered that and it reverberates in a very bad way.  So

10     Sanski Most is left without Serbs, after all.  And there are many things

11     that can be said in this regard.  I don't think that we can deal with it

12     all now.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us what happened, what policy was

14     promoted in neighbouring Croatia?  And how far away is that from you?

15     How far away is the Croatian border?

16        A.   The Croatian border is not far away from Sanski Most, up to

17     80 kilometres, and it's even less as the crow flies.  There were many

18     Serbs who lived in Croatia and then after the conflict in Croatia they

19     came to Sanski Most.  Entire columns of refugees came and the people of

20     Sanski Most saw them coming, they told them about terrible things that

21     had happened, and that fuelled the fear that something like that could

22     happen to them, too.  The war in Croatia was really a special phenomenon,

23     something that led to this psychosis among the population in the

24     municipality.

25        Q.   Could I kindly ask you, Mr. Orlovic, to relax, to sit down

Page 46658

 1     properly, and speak slowly, please.

 2        A.   Sorry, it's what a journalist does.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Certain things were mentioned here that were

 4     broadcast over the radio.  Did you write a statement to this

 5     Mr. Biscevic?

 6        A.   No, I did not.  Mr. Biscevic brought this statement.  It was in

 7     his pocket.  Again, I repeat:  I asked him not to read it out, even if he

 8     was under pressure.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  The objection raised to you was that the radio

10     broadcast statements of the Crisis Staff.  Did you write these

11     statements, and did you have the right not to air them?

12        A.   We did not write the statements that we received.  We broadcast

13     them in the original and we did not have the right to change them for a

14     simple reason:  That is what we had been told, that the original should

15     be left as it is.

16        Q.   Thank you.  What about the names that were mentioned, Savic and

17     Biscevic's statement, and the names that he mentions saying that he is

18     expressing their views, too, that the fighting should stop?  And the

19     Prosecutor has suggested that these were prominent Muslims.  Are these

20     the names of people -- actually, who are these people in terms of

21     political activity?

22        A.   As far as I know, these people were then members of the

23     Party of Democratic Action.  I repeat once again, I knew a lot of

24     prominent Muslims who were in the fields of science, arts, and who were

25     professors, and of course he doesn't mention them, and they were probably

Page 46659

 1     more eminent than they were.  I am not going into that now.  I'm not

 2     going to weigh their respective reputations.

 3        Q.   What was the position of those that he did not mention and where

 4     did they live?

 5        A.   They lived -- they lived in Sanski Most.  They lived in their

 6     apartments.  In my building, an engineer lived there, a professor, and

 7     throughout these different activities we were together in the hallway.

 8     We played chess, we took care of each other.  And we trembled.  I

 9     trembled as much as he did.  I was afraid for my children but he did not

10     have to fear for his children because he had sent them away several

11     months before that, so he was more aware of the situation that would

12     actually happen.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

15     D5, Defence exhibit number 5.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Please take a look at this, the State Security Service, the

18     7th of March, 1992.  And it says:

19             "According to verified information, certain persons wearing ...

20     Green Berets were observed," and so on and so forth.

21             And it also says according to realistic estimates, about 3.000

22     Muslims owned long-barrels and are part of the SDA armed formation and

23     those mainly responsible for the SDA activities are Ismet Sarcevic, a

24     lawyer; Suad Sabic, a lawyer; Adil Draganovic, president of the court;

25     Redzo Kurbegovic; and Mirzet Karabeg; and Enver Hurlic, commander of the

Page 46660

 1     police station.

 2             How does this fit into what you know, this information of the

 3     state security before the war?

 4        A.   Well, I lived a peaceful life.  I didn't really meddle into

 5     politics.  Different stories were bandied about, about arming, and we

 6     were all in fear of each other.  The Muslims were saying that we were

 7     armed and we were saying that they were armed.  Again, I didn't really

 8     believe it that much; however, when I read the book: "It is a Crime To

 9     Forget a Crime," I saw that on the 15th of April there was this review,

10     this lineup of 300 armed persons in Vrhpolje.  Later on when there was

11     this disarming - the radio is near the bus station - I saw in cars lots

12     of different weapons, the old guns that were used for celebratory

13     gun-fire, but also I saw the most sophisticated modern weapons.  So there

14     were weapons there.  Now how they obtained weapons, there are several

15     versions in that respect.

16        Q.   Thank you.  In that book that you mention, who are the authors of

17     that book?

18        A.   Zilhad Kljucanin and I forgot the naming of the other author.

19     Akmadzic?  Now, what was his name?  You'll probably find it somewhere.

20     Roughly it was only then that we saw what the actual situation was on the

21     other side.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us what their ethnicity was?

23        A.   They were Muslims, and I know Kljucanin well because he was a

24     poet like I am.  He wrote poetry and lived in Sarajevo for a while and

25     then returned to Sanski Most.  And then he went back to Sarajevo.  He

Page 46661

 1     divided his time between these two towns and he is a highly educated man.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  On page 51 of that book, I don't know whether that

 3     part is there, it says certain quantities of weapons were obtained from

 4     Croatia.  One of the main organisers of the purchase of weapons in the

 5     municipality of Sanski Most was Hasim Kamber [phoen], at that time secret

 6     of the SDA, together with Rasim.  That is page 52.  The next one,

 7     Karabeg, Karabeg, Kamir [phoen], managed to obtain some explosives

 8     towards the end of 1991 and beginning of 1992.  And now there is a list

 9     of persons who worked on obtaining weapons:  Seferovic, Begic Sudo,

10     Redzo Kurbegovic, Suad Sabic, Enver Hurlic, Nedzad Muhic, Faik Biscevic,

11     Mirzet Karabeg, Husein Efendija.

12             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not following.

13             MR ZEC:  It's kind of reading session.  I don't understand, what

14     was the question?  I think Mr. Karadzic asked and he got the answer on

15     this.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, now I'm asking the witness

17     what his knowledge was about this, about what the Muslim authors were

18     saying about these prominent people, as they were called by the

19     Prosecutor in his question.  All of these persons are being mentioned as

20     organisers of illegal arming.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, when --

22             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

23             Where do we have that quote?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellency, it's not this document.

25     It's the book that we showed a moment ago.  I don't know whether these

Page 46662

 1     pages have been admitted.  They have already been admitted, I see.  I

 2     just need to find out what the number is because the Prosecutor --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- did not show all documents.  He

 5     just made certain references.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Zec.

 7             MR ZEC:  Mr. President, Mr. Karadzic asked this question about

 8     arming and he got the answer from the witness.  I don't understand why he

 9     needs to feed the witness more about this.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Can you assist us, Mr. Robinson.

11             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  I don't think there is

12     anything wrong with supporting the witness's answer by showing other

13     documents or corroborating the witness by showing him other documents.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, he can do that as long as he's not leading the

16     witness.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I see I won't be able

18     to finish before the break, after all, so perhaps we should take the

19     break.  D1677, that's the number.  This Muslim book -- or rather, this

20     book by Muslim authors.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

22             MR. TIEGER:  Before the break, Mr. President, I wanted to address

23     the issue you left with the parties in light of the impossibility of

24     extended sessions, you noted at the outset that you would leave to the

25     parties how to proceed.

Page 46663

 1             Mr. Robinson and I consulted by e-mail on this issue.  We would

 2     suggest, if the Court and personnel are amenable, having 20-minute breaks

 3     instead of 30 minutes and having a 30-minute lunch which would yield an

 4     additional 50 minutes and might enable us to complete the process.  I

 5     appreciate that's a burden.  I wouldn't ordinarily suggest it, but it is

 6     an expedient that just might serve our purposes under these circumstances

 7     as a rare exception.

 8                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, how much longer would you need for

10     your re-examination to be concluded?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] About 15 minutes.

12             JUDGE KWON:  We shall first take a break for 20 minutes and

13     resume at 5 to 11.00.

14                           --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.

15                           [The witness stands down]

16                           [The witness takes the stand]

17                           --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  I would like to let the parties know that it

19     has been arranged that the Chamber can sit till 10 past 4.00 today.

20             Please, Mr. Karadzic, continue.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Mr. Orlovic, we have seen what the radio broadcast, and I don't

24     know if we got an answer to this question.  Were you able to change the

25     announcements of the authorities?

Page 46664

 1        A.   No, I was not able to and they were published -- they were

 2     broadcast in the original.

 3        Q.   In the municipality of Sanski Most, were there any villages that

 4     handed over their weapons; Serb, Muslim, and Croat?

 5        A.   Yes.  There was a number of villages that handed over their

 6     weapons and continued to live peacefully.  A friend of mine from the

 7     village of Kijevo, when he found out that there would be a disarmament

 8     drive, asked me what to do and I told him, Advise your people over there

 9     to hand over their weapons, and you'll surely be able to go on living

10     peacefully.  Later on he called me to say that everything was all right.

11     So that was Kijevo village.  Another one was Poljak.  And some other

12     villages that I knew about, because friends of mine called me from there

13     and said that things were quite peaceful in those villages after they

14     handed over their weapons.

15        Q.   What is the total number of Muslim and Croat villages in

16     Sanski Most municipality, and in how many of them was there any fighting?

17        A.   I don't know the exact number, but I'll probably not be wrong if

18     I say around 50.  And out of that, half were Muslim, half were Serb, and

19     perhaps there were two or three Croat villages.  I'm not really sure but

20     something like that.  Disarmament drives and incidents took place in a

21     number of villages.  We've managed to refer already to Mahala, Hrustovo,

22     and there was an incident in Trnava village where the police was

23     disarmed.  And in the immediate vicinity, a soldier who was guarding a

24     silo was killed.  There were some incidents in these places and I don't

25     remember any others.

Page 46665

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Earlier today the Prosecutor questioned your claim

 2     that communications were interrupted, and he also suggested that attacks

 3     on Mahala and some other villages targeted civilian settlements and you

 4     claim the opposite.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we show 65 ter 8463 to this

 6     witness.

 7             MR ZEC:  Perhaps we should first hear the question and then see

 8     the document.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Mr. Orlovic, do you stand by your assertion that the fighting did

12     not target unarmed civilian settlements as the Prosecutor claimed?

13        A.   I stand by that assertion based on the knowledge that I had, and

14     I had that knowledge from the reports that were sent to us at the radio

15     for us to broadcast them, where people of good intentions who did not

16     want conflict who were prepared to hand over weapons would be safe if

17     they do so.  In places where clashes occurred, they occurred probably

18     because they didn't want to hand over weapons or there were skirmishes

19     between individuals who were out of control with groups or individuals

20     from another ethnic community.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Since we have the document on the

22     screen, could we show page 10 in Serbian and then we'll move on to

23     page 11.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Is this 8467 -- 63?

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This should be 1677.  It's already

Page 46666

 1     in evidence.  We'll leave it.

 2             Let's have 8463.  This has already been received.  I only wanted

 3     to show on the screen what I've already read out.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Mr. Orlovic, we should also have the English version.  We have

 6     one report from the news agency "Tanjug."  We see the date 27 July and

 7     something in handwriting.  Look at the last paragraph.

 8             "Due to the complete breakdown of PTT communications ... with

 9     municipalities Sanski Most and Kljuc, we have no other details on today's

10     clashes."

11             How is this consistent with your knowledge?

12        A.   PTT communications were frequently broken down, especially after

13     various operations, and I believe the most critical months were May and

14     June where PTT communications operated very badly or not at all.  We had

15     local communications in certain areas but not outside the borders of the

16     municipality -- or only sporadically.

17        Q.   Look at the rest, please.  It deals with the conflict between

18     Muslim extremists and the units of the 1st Krajina Corps.  It says they

19     broke out today at Sanski Most.  And the previous night an attack at

20     guards in Venicevci [phoen] village and Vrhpolje village, these guards

21     were guarding the bridge on the Sana River.  And it says that Green

22     Berets fired mortars at the public security station and the silo.  How is

23     this consistent with what you know?

24        A.   At that time, there was frequent shooting.  Since I didn't serve

25     in the army, I don't really distinguish between shells and mortars.

Page 46667

 1     Shells did fall in and around the place where I lived.  I don't know from

 2     where.  But where I lived there was only Serbian population, and at the

 3     Radio Sanski Most when the shells were falling there were only Serbs

 4     inside.  Only Serbs working there.  So I suppose these shells were fired

 5     by the other side because that radio was the only mass medium that was

 6     still operating and could inform the people.

 7        Q.   Do you know that these shells destroyed a number of houses in

 8     that Serbian settlement?

 9        A.   Yes, we did know a couple of things.  I remember one shell fell

10     very near me.  I know.  But at that time, people did not really count

11     damaged houses.  What was important was to get out of it alive.  Whether

12     something would be destroyed or not was less important, so we didn't

13     really count any material damage.

14        Q.   Look at the last paragraph.  Tell us if it fits in with your

15     experience.  Was the deputy commander of the police killed in an ambush,

16     and did a clash occur between the police and the locals who were joined

17     by people from Velagici village?  This is not Sanski Most municipality,

18     but did you know about these things?

19        A.   No, not then, but information reached us later.  Both information

20     and disinformation reached us later.  But much later I found out there

21     had been some incidents and a group of soldiers were killed when they

22     were going from Kljuc.  Those were JNA soldiers who were going back.  At

23     that time in that period, and we've shown recently this book, "It's A

24     Crime to Forget a Crime," on the 15th of April in Vrhpolje there was a

25     lineup of 300 armed men.  So these things could happen.

Page 46668

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tender this document.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Zec.

 4             MR ZEC:  Perhaps it would be useful that we have some information

 5     about the "Tanjug," where this -- what this agency is.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, for the record.  Yes.  It -- could you assist

 7     us, Mr. Orlovic?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're asking me about the "Tanjug"

 9     report?  I see it for the first time.  I was not aware of it.  But they

10     probably got it from a source.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Mr. Orlovic, for the record, just tell us what "Tanjug" is.

13        A.   It's the telegraph news agency of Yugoslavia, created back in the

14     Second World War, and it was based in Belgrade.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll admit it.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D4295, Your Honours.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   The Prosecution suggested that Mahala and several other

21     settlements were attacked as civilian settlements.  Do you still stand by

22     your assertion that these settlements were militarised, that they had a

23     military organisation?

24        A.   In these settlements from what we knew from the information that

25     reached us through various reports at the radio, and from what we heard

Page 46669

 1     from people, from what I heard, a large number of people had weapons.

 2     And that was proven later during the disarmament drives.  And wherever

 3     there are weapons, there is danger.

 4        Q.   Were civilians the target of the Serbian Territorial Defence and

 5     later the 6th Sana Brigade, and still later the Army of Republika Srpska?

 6     Were you able to see for yourself whether civilians were the target?

 7        A.   According to what Radio Sanski Most broadcast, and these were

 8     constant announcements and reports, the population of these settlements

 9     had previously been asked to leave the place to avoid civilian

10     casualties.  These announcements were broadcast minute by minute and the

11     aim was to keep the civilian population, women, children, and all those

12     people who were unarmed and unwilling to join in the fighting, safe.

13     They were asked to leave.  I saw a column of people from my window in the

14     radio building cross a bridge and go into the premises of the football

15     club Podgrmec.  They were escorted by the police and I believe they made

16     their way in peace.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown

18     65 ter 18911.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Please, Mr. Orlovic, read to us slowly the first paragraph of

21     item 1.  First tell the Trial Chamber who published this, who is this

22     person, and what is this?

23        A.   This is the combat assignment to disarm people in Sanski Most,

24     Prijedor, 1, 2, 3, and 4, Bosanska Krupa.  I don't see the signature of

25     the person.  Colonel Anicic, commander of the Territorial Defence Staff.

Page 46670

 1     Colonel, but I can't see the name, it seems to be Anicic.  I'm reading

 2     the text:

 3             "In certain parts of the municipality populated by Muslims and

 4     Croats, some earlier infiltrated groups like HOS," which is probably

 5     Croatian Armed Forces, "ZNG, and Green Berets linked up with the forces

 6     of hostile villages and urban neighbourhoods of Sanski Most municipality,

 7     and with their help managed to establish eight detachments, five

 8     independent companies, and several independent platoons in Mahala,

 9     Kamengradska Balina [phoen], Hrustovo, Vrhpolje, Trnovo, Sehovici, Sasina

10     and Poljak.  Onto the free territory of the city and environs, the enemy

11     intensively infiltrating individuals who have intelligence,

12     reconnaissance, and sabotage assignments."

13        Q.   [No interpretation]

14             THE INTERPRETER:  This was the end of the sight translation.

15     Could Mr. Karadzic please repeat his question.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Interpreters were able to translate

17     the citation but not your question.  So if you could repeat your

18     question.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   How does this report issued by the commander of the

21     Territorial Defence Staff tally with what you knew about those eight

22     detachments, five independent companies in those locations that are

23     mentioned, Mahala, Hrustovo, and Vrhpolje, and so on and so forth?

24        A.   I know that there were rumours about some detachments and

25     companies and about ZNGs and HOS troops having been infiltrated.  I

Page 46671

 1     didn't know how many there were.  This is the first time I see that they

 2     were so numerous.  If I had known it at the time, I would have run for my

 3     life.  This is an impressive force, I dare say.  In other words, the

 4     situation was very difficult.

 5        Q.   Mr. Orlovic, what does it say in the right-hand corner?

 6        A.   "Strictly confidential, Grmec 1992," which is probably a code.

 7        Q.   Is this perhaps the reason why you were not aware of the details?

 8        A.   I suppose so.  Because if this information had become public, I'm

 9     sure that it would have instilled a lot of panic among the people.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And now can we go to the following

11     page --

12             MR ZEC:  Mr. President, I think this document might be in

13     evidence already.  And second, this witness testified that he doesn't

14     know anything about these activities.  All he knew was what he was

15     receiving on the radio.  I don't see the point going on this line of

16     questioning.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson.

18             MR. ROBINSON:  I'm going to defer to Dr. Karadzic as to whether

19     this is a good use of our time.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, the Prosecutor

21     challenged the fact that it was combat and legitimate action.  He claimed

22     that there were attacks on demilitarised Muslim and Croat villages and

23     urban areas.  The witness said that that was not the fact.  And now I

24     would like to show a confidential document which had to be kept secret in

25     order to prevent panic among the population in order to establish who is

Page 46672

 1     right, whether it's the witness or Prosecutor.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Probably I think it would -- I agree that I saw this

 3     document before.  Do you know the exhibit number?

 4             MR ZEC:  I'm trying to locate it, Mr. President, as I -- if I

 5     manage, I'll let you know.  And second, this witness testified he does

 6     not know anything about it.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Probably Mr. Karadzic wanted to tender this

 8     document.  But if this is the one we have already admitted, that's a --

 9     he should consider again whether it's a good use of time given that the

10     witness cannot help us a lot as to the content of this document.  We

11     certainly discussed with Mr. Keserovic.  I'm not sure.

12             MR ZEC:  It might be P3313, but it need to cross-check.

13                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

14             JUDGE KWON:  It's confirmed by the Registry.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Let me give you the reason.  On page 22, the question was:

17             [In English] "You say in response to question 12 that after

18     Mahala, Muslim extremists who did not want to surrender weapons withdrew

19     to Caplje and Hrustovo where the fighting with them continued.

20     Mr. Orlovic, while you claim this happened, you reported to the Serb mass

21     media ...," and so on and so on.

22             MR ZEC:  I confirm this was my question.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Mr. Orlovic, on page 21 and also on page 22, and I'm going to

Page 46673

 1     read the question:

 2             [In English] "And you knew, Mr. Orlovic, that ordinary civilians

 3     were killed in Sanski Most, didn't you?"

 4             And answer:

 5             "At that time there was a lot of rumor, a lot of propaganda.  All

 6     the stories including murders, killings, and destruction, I always took

 7     them with a grain of salt.  I never believed them.  Even 20 years after

 8     the end of the war, I still don't believe that things like that happened.

 9     All the cases that did occur, they cannot be seen as falling under the

10     system or part of some organised activity.  Those were individual

11     incidents that should be condemned."

12             [Interpretation] Do you adhere by this, Mr. Orlovic?  According

13     to what you know, how did authorities -- how did the authorities view

14     such incidents?

15        A.   I adhere to my words.  As far as the authorities are concerned,

16     at that moment the authorities were dealing with the situation at hand.

17     I believe that all those incidents would eventually be prosecuted and

18     that the perpetrators of those illegal acts would eventually be punished

19     and that they would be taken to task for what they had done.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

21     65 ter 6734.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   This was issued on the 10 November 1992 by the public security

24     station.  It was signed by its chief, Mirko Vrucinic, as you will see on

25     the last page.  In the first paragraph it says:

Page 46674

 1             "In the last month or so, violence against settlements and

 2     persons of Muslim and Croat nationality in the area of Sanski Most

 3     municipality has escalated."

 4             The text goes on to list all the incidents that happened and the

 5     dates when they happened.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go to the following page,

 7     please.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   The second sentence in the second paragraph says that the

10     perpetrators of those acts are mostly members of military and

11     paramilitary and most of them enjoy support of the other soldiers, and

12     some representatives of the authorities which believe that the official

13     authorities had not done enough to move Muslims and Croats out of the

14     territory of the municipality.  Most of those acts were in retaliation,

15     and so on and so forth.  What about this position of the police?  How

16     does that tally with what you know and what you experienced with regard

17     to the position of the authorities in connection with crimes?

18        A.   It was still the early days of the war.  It was a hot year, as it

19     were.  There were a lot of activities going on.  First of all, the

20     corridor of life was created, then there were actions around Jajce.  From

21     all of those places, we heard that people died in large numbers or they

22     returned wounded.  This created an anxiety among the people who were sent

23     to the front line.  All those things were individual things.  They were

24     not part of a system.  Nobody actually ordered them to do what they did.

25     They were either drunk when they did what they did or they were sick.

Page 46675

 1     God knows.  In any case, they had their own reasons why they did those

 2     things, and if one is to judge by Mr. Vrucinic's words, the police was

 3     ready to punish the perpetrators of those acts.

 4        Q.   Please pay attention to the follow passage where it says:

 5             "We inform you that in all instances SJB operatives performed

 6     on-site investigations and undertook legal measures and acts, and that at

 7     this moment we know who some of the perpetrators are.  However, ... in a

 8     situation like this, we neither can, nor is it advisable to undertake

 9     measures of arresting," and so on and so forth.

10             Please take a look at this passage.  It says here that there

11     is --

12             MR ZEC:  Mr. President.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   -- a fear that certain soldiers will not allow --

15             JUDGE KWON:  I don't follow, Mr. Karadzic.  What is your

16     question?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My question is the same:  How does

18     this tally with Mr. Orlovic's conviction that the police did prosecute

19     such acts --

20             JUDGE KWON:  No, just a second.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- ex officio.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose that they did.

23             JUDGE KWON:  How does he know that, first?  And then second, how

24     does this arise from the cross-examination, the investigation or

25     something?  Did Mr. Zec touch upon that issue?

Page 46676

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, on pages 21 and 22.  The

 2     question was:

 3             [In English] "And you knew, Mr. Orlovic, that ordinary civilians

 4     were killed in Sanski Most; didn't you?"

 5             JUDGE KWON:  No, he didn't touch upon the issue of investigation

 6     or the prosecution, et cetera.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But, Excellencies, the witness

 8     answered that there were such things but that they were not part of a

 9     system.  They were not condoned by the authorities.  And I want to see

10     from him whether the authorities undertook measures.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Move on.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. Zec is certainly --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Move on to another topic.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

15     document into evidence.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll admit it.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D4296, Your Honours.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And now the last document.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Did you know, Mr. Orlovic, how the authorities looked at those

21     things?  What did they expect from members of the armed forces when it

22     came to illegal acts and crimes?

23             MR ZEC:  I believe this goes -- same topic.  There is nothing

24     different from the previous.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I agree.

Page 46677

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But I would like to show the

 2     witness my last document and then I'll wrap it up.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  No.  If it is related to this topic, I will not

 4     allow you to go on.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's about the protection of all

 6     citizens --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  [Overlapping speakers]

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- regardless of their religion or

 9     ethnic affiliation.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Ask your question first.  We'll hear the question.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   I'm going to give you a reference from the cross-examination.

13     Mr. Orlovic -- please bear with me for a moment.  The page number is 30

14     and the question was this:

15             [In English] "We discussed earlier that killings and persecution

16     to which non-Serbs were subjected.  We just heard the Crisis Staff

17     publicly informing Croats and Muslims that it is in their best interest

18     to leave, as they risk self-destruction in which the innocent will

19     suffer.  So it is not true, is it, that non-Serbs left more economic

20     reasons.  They left because it was made clear that Sanski Most is a Serb

21     town in which their survival was in jeopardy; right?"

22             [Interpretation] Did the authorities prosecute [as interpreted]

23     non-Serbs, non-Serbian civilians, the non-Serb population as is suggested

24     by this question?

25        A.   According to the information I received from the police station

Page 46678

 1     and the authorities, i.e., the information we received after their

 2     meetings, there were no such things.  There was never a reference made to

 3     the need to persecute non-Serbs.  All effort was made to protect them.

 4     But it was wartime.  Laws were not implemented in the way they should

 5     have been.  There were a lot of disappointed people who had weapons and

 6     who could not be dealt with.

 7        Q.   And now the last document --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic --

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- that I would like to call up.

10             JUDGE KWON:  I note Mr. Zec referred to "persecution," but he

11     never mentioned "prosecution."

12             THE ACCUSED:  Persecution.  [Interpretation] Persecution.  I

13     never said "prosecution."  I mentioned [indiscernible] or "persecution."

14     I wanted to see whether the authorities persecuted non-Serbs.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 5172 is the next document I

17     would like to call up.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Your 15 minutes turned out to be almost an hour.  I

19     do not interrupt -- stopping you.  Please carry on.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, had Mr. Zec not interrupted

21     it would have been less.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Mr. Orlovic, please take a look at this.  Between two sessions of

24     the assembly, the co-ordination body reached a decision or, rather,

25     decisions.  We can all read this out.  Just take a look at the first two.

Page 46679

 1     Does this support an assertion to the effect that the authorities were in

 2     favour of persecuting civilians?

 3        A.   On the basis of these conclusions, no, because it can be seen,

 4     after all, that it is responsibility that is being required.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to tender this.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  What conclusion are we talking about, Mr. Orlovic?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, the command is -- I mean the

 9     first one, the first conclusion:

10             "The commander of the 6th Krajina Brigade and the Public Security

11     Station are requested to submit a report on who participated in the

12     organisation of the armed attack on Trnovo and Sehovici and what was the

13     goal of an attack on such a scale."

14             So a report is being requested and probably they are being held

15     responsible.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Paragraph 2, so the 6th Krajina Brigade and the public security

18     station are required to do what?  The most strict possible measures

19     should be taken, they should change certain personnel.  How does this fit

20     into what you said, that the authorities did not persecute civilians and

21     the prosecutor is saying that they did?

22        A.   It doesn't fit into that because the authorities started to

23     function.  This is the 17th of November when these conclusions were

24     adopted, so it is already in sight; namely, those who perpetrated crimes

25     would be held accountable.  So that means that, after all, the situation

Page 46680

 1     in the municipality is calming down and there is more freedom of movement

 2     and life.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

 5     document and I have no further questions.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  What does this attack on Trnovo and Sehovici refer

 7     to?  Do you remember that, Mr. Orlovic?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The attack against Trnovo and

 9     Sehovici probably refers to -- well, according to my knowledge, according

10     to what I knew, in Trnovo the police had been disarmed and they say that

11     they stripped them naked and expelled them from the village.  And in

12     Sehovici there was a silo nearby where a soldier had been killed who had

13     been guarding the grains there and probably there was some clash after

14     the activity of the extremists in these villages.  That was probably the

15     reason.

16             JUDGE KWON:  They were the attacks against the Serb forces.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, whatever you call it,

18     attacks, excesses.  Policemen were there probably with the task of

19     protecting the village but they were attacked.  The soldier who was

20     guarding the grains probably had no other intention but to guard the

21     grains.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Mr. Orlovic, you say that that was probably the reason or taken

24     as a pretext for something.  What is it that the authorities hold against

25     the armed elements?  So it was a pretext for what?

Page 46681

 1        A.   Probably for what happened in those villages, Trnovo and

 2     Sehovici.  I know of these situations, these things that happened in

 3     these villages.  But I know that in this village of Sehovici there is a

 4     large Roma population.  They were loyal throughout the war and nobody

 5     touched them.  I know that they came to see me at the radio.  They would

 6     ask for certain songs to be played.  They expressed their wishes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, in the previous

 9     document of the 10th of November it says -- I mean, these villages are

10     referred to where these incidents occurred against the Muslims and

11     Croats.  And here --

12             MR ZEC:  No --

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- a week --

14             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry?

15             MR ZEC:  The -- this --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic is explaining the relevance of this

17     document in order to tender it.

18             MR ZEC:  And witness provided it so far --

19             JUDGE KWON:  No, no.

20             MR ZEC:  -- and Mr. Karadzic is moving on.  He is referring to

21     other document.

22             JUDGE KWON:  No, he concluded his re-examination.  He's

23     explaining to the Chamber as to the relevance and admissibility of this

24     document.

25             I will turn to you.  Please wait.

Page 46682

 1             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] These two documents are a linked to

 3     the previous one of the 10th of November where these incidents are

 4     enumerated.  The witness said that the reasons or pretext for these

 5     incidents were some murders, but the authorities believed that this was

 6     too much.  And this has been admitted but under a different number.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Zec.  Any objection to the admission of

 8     this document?

 9             MR ZEC:  My also concern was, as Your Honours already asked the

10     witness about, this relates to specificities, incidents, and the witness

11     provided the answer so I don't object.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll admit it.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D4297, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Unless my colleagues have further questions for you,

15     Mr. Orlovic, that concludes your evidence.  On behalf of the Chamber, I

16     would like to thank you for your coming to The Hague to give it.  You are

17     free to go.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

19                           [The witness withdrew]

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE KWON:  Could we go into private session briefly.

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 46683

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we are now in open session.  The Chamber will

 6     rise for three minutes.

 7                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll rise for ten minutes for preparation.

 9                           --- Break taken at 11.45 a.m.

10                           [The witness entered court]

11                           --- On resuming at 11.58 a.m.

12             JUDGE KWON:  For the remainder of today's session, we'll be

13     sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis with Judge Baird being away due to his

14     personal urgent matters.

15             Before we continue, could the Chamber move into private session

16     briefly.

17                           [Private session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 46684

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  We are now in open session, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

20             Would the witness make the solemn declaration.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

22     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23                           WITNESS:  KW426

24                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, sir.  Please be seated and make yourself

Page 46685

 1     comfortable.

 2             Before you commence your evidence, Mr. Witness, I must draw your

 3     attention to a certain rule of evidence that we have here at the

 4     international Tribunal; that is, Rule 90(E).  Under this rule, you may

 5     object to answering any question from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecutor, or

 6     even from the Judges if you believe that your answer might incriminate

 7     you in criminal offence.  In this context, "incriminate" means saying

 8     something that might amount to an admission of guilt for a criminal

 9     offence or saying something that might provide evidence that you might

10     have committed a criminal offence.  However, should you think that an

11     answer might incriminate you and as a consequence you refuse to answer

12     the question, I must let you know that the Tribunal has the power to

13     compel you to answer the question.  But in that situation the Tribunal

14     would ensure that your testimony compelled under such circumstances would

15     not be used in any case that might be laid against you for any offence

16     save and except the offence of giving false testimony.  Do you understand

17     that, sir?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

20             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             Could the witness please be shown, without broadcasting this,

23     8804.  That's the 65 ter number.  I'm sorry, 1D8804.  This can be

24     removed.  Thank you.

25                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

Page 46686

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Witness, do you see this page before you and

 2     does this number correspond to your name?

 3        A.   My name is written down there, but I don't know about these

 4     numbers up there.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  So this is your name on this sheet?

 6        A.   Yes, yes.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this into

 8     evidence under seal.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll admit it under seal.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D4298 under seal, Your Honours.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Mr. Witness, did you provide a statement to the Defence team?

14        A.   Yes, I did.

15        Q.   Thank you for pausing between question and answer.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 1D9659,

17     again without having it broadcast.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Do you see the first page of that statement of yours on the

20     screen?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Have you read and signed this statement?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

Page 46687

 1     the last page so that he could identify his signature.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   And I would like to ask you to pause between our questions and

 4     answers.  Is this your signature?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Did this statement faithfully reflect what you

 7     communicated to the Defence team?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to put the same questions to you today in

10     this courtroom, would your answers basically be the same as those

11     contained in the statement?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

15     statement on the basis of Rule 92 ter under seal, and could you please

16     decide on a possible redacted version for the public.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have any objection to the statement,

18     Ms. Gustafson?

19             MS. GUSTAFSON:  No, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE KWON:  We'll receive both versions, i.e., a confidential

21     version as well as public version, into evidence.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour, 1D9659 will be Exhibit D4299

23     under seal, and the public redacted version will be Exhibit D4300.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we deal with the associate exhibits?  I --

25     yes, Mr. Robinson.

Page 46688

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  There are two proposed

 2     associated exhibits.  They are not on our 65 ter list as we hadn't

 3     interviewed this witness at the time that this was filed.  With respect

 4     to the second one, it's actually part of paragraph 13 and not

 5     paragraph 12.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Second one being 1D9653?

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  With respect to that folder, which consists of

 9     six photos, no explanation is offered as to who those other individuals

10     are, so probably that needs to be led live.  But we'll receive 1D9658

11     unless there is any objection from Ms. Gustafson.

12             MS. GUSTAFSON:  No, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Shall we assign a number for the first one.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D4301 under seal, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             Now I'm going to read out in the English language a summary of

18     this witness's statement, and then I'm going to put a few questions to

19     him and also deal with a few documents live.

20             [In English] KW426 worked in the RS State Security Service.  He

21     became a communications and encoding instructor and during his career he

22     was also responsible for training and defence preparations.  He is not

23     affiliated to any political party.

24             The ethnic composition of the CSB where he worked was, for the

25     most part, unchanged before and after the war and all ethnic groups were

Page 46689

 1     equally represented.  When the war broke out in BH, there was no direct

 2     communication with the organs at the republican level for a while.  The

 3     vertical line of subordination to the republican authorities was severed

 4     due to physical cutting off of the territory and disruption of the

 5     communication lines.

 6             The CSB where this witness worked, special police unit, was

 7     formed in April 1992 pursuant to the decision of the assembly of the

 8     regional organisation.  The unit had three army platoons and one police

 9     platoon.  Almost no one in the special unit had specialist training.  In

10     mid-July 1992, the Ministry of the Interior issued an order to disband

11     the unit.  In addition, about 40 men were removed from the unit for

12     disciplinary reasons and criminal reports were filed against a number of

13     them.  After this experience, it was decided that only educated and

14     trained men could be employed at the CSB.  During the war, most members

15     of the special police unit were conscientious and responsible men, who

16     did not commit crimes.

17             With regard to the Keraterm and Omarska investigation centre, the

18     CSB where this witness worked appointed a commission which was supposed

19     to establish whether there were any irregularities in the work of these

20     centres.  The commission produced a report which was accepted as credible

21     and accurate and in which it was said that various paramilitary

22     formations committed crimes in the centres and that the police was unable

23     to oppose them.  Steps were taken to overcome the crisis situation and

24     disband and disarm all paramilitary formations.

25             And that is short summary.  I would like now to pose several

Page 46690

 1     questions and show some documents.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Mr. Witness --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Just one advice to the witness

 5     before he starts his evidence.

 6             Because your voice should be distorted for the purpose of

 7     protection, please make sure that you put a pause between the question

 8     and answer before you start answering the question.  Do you understand

 9     that, sir?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

11             JUDGE KWON:  If you overlap with the interpretation, your voice

12     might be heard outside.

13             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   If you need some kind of orientation, Witness, you can see

16     whether my light is on or not.  Once it's off, it is safe for you to

17     start speaking.

18             Can you tell us whether you had information about any

19     paramilitary or illegal organisation of the other two sides in your area

20     and when that started?

21        A.   Well according to the information that I have, paramilitary

22     formations in the area of the centre of Banja Luka were established

23     already during the election campaign.  I know that from some notes.

24     After certain things happened -- actually, after these elections, part of

25     the weapons and equipment were hidden in bunkers, houses, and later on

Page 46691

 1     some of the owners of these houses, because they left some other

 2     valuables there, in a way they tried to get this out illegally.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

 5     1D9654.  And I believe that it can be broadcast, but first let us take a

 6     look at this.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Can you tell us what this document is and how you got it?  If

 9     you're the only person who managed to get ahold of it, it cannot be

10     broadcast.

11        A.   This document was captured when a command post was being taken, a

12     command post of the BH Army.  And persons that took part in fighting were

13     familiar with this document.  These are the unit cards of that unit that

14     remained at the command post, and this shows that certain soldiers had

15     joined the unit already in 1990; that is to say, before anything

16     happened.

17        Q.   Thank you.  So this one joined?

18        A.   On the 25th of September, 1990.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Or maybe it's the 23rd.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   What about this soldier?  When did he --

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Actually, Excellencies, you decide

25     whether this can be broadcast.  I think it can be broadcast.  It has

Page 46692

 1     nothing to do with the identity of this witness.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  I leave it to you.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It can be broadcast.  Could it

 4     please be broadcast, then.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   When you look at this card, what do you see?  When did this

 7     person join the armed forces of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 8        A.   According to this card, on -- in April 1991.

 9        Q.   What is written next to this rank in the former JNA?  What does

10     it say there?

11        A.   Squad leader.

12        Q.   Thank you.  What does it say on the next page?

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have the next page.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Can you tell us when this person joined?  Just please pause.

16     When this person joined the armed forces.

17        A.   The 23rd of August, 1991.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please leaf through this

20     one by one.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   And without me putting any questions, could you just tell us when

23     every one of these persons became a member of the armed forces.  And then

24     I'm going to put questions to you after that.  So I'm going to turn off

25     my microphone now, and then you tell us about all the rest.  Just tell me

Page 46693

 1     when this person joined their illegal army.

 2        A.   August 1991.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could you please leaf through all

 4     of them for the witness with short breaks so that he could identify this.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The 1st of January 1992;

 6     March 1992; 15th of March, 1992; the 2nd of April, 1992; the

 7     4th of April, 1992.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Witness.  Can you tell us how things stood in

10     relation to the law?  As far as these cards are concerned, what was the

11     legal armed force at the time according to the law?

12        A.   According to the law this was illegal activity because at that

13     point in time, no such military formation was supposed to exist.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

16     document into evidence.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Gustafson.

18             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Your Honours, I mean, this is untranslated

19     material, but I am nevertheless struggling to see the relevance.

20     Obviously, it's not contested whatsoever that there was an army, the

21     ABiH, with soldiers.  I understand that this is an effort to show that

22     there was some kind of organisation of some armed units in 1990 and 1991;

23     however, we have no idea where such units were formed or anything about

24     any particulars and how it made impacts on any of the municipalities or

25     allegations in this case.  I'm happy to have it MFI'd for the time being.

Page 46694

 1     But again, I'm unclear as to the relevance of this.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification, pending English

 3     translation.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D4302, Your Honours.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Witness, may I ask you to tell us briefly, but still in greater

 7     detail, what these units were, where they were deployed, and what their

 8     purpose was?

 9        A.   This is a purely military unit.  I'd like to emphasise that I saw

10     similar cards in Doboj when I went there on official business.  A

11     colleague of mine showed them to me at an SDA station.  They had similar

12     cards in cardboard boxes and they were labeled:  "The Distribution of

13     Military Scripts Across Jenac [phoen]," which were religious

14     institutions.  And that is an indication that in that area as well this

15     military force had already been prepared, which was illegal because all

16     military formations and all military conscripts were under the department

17     for national defence.

18        Q.   The indictment against me alleges that Muslims and Croats were

19     dismissed from our services and that it was made impossible for them to

20     work.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

22             Yes.

23             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I don't think it's appropriate to introduce a

24     question by reciting allegations in the indictment, particularly when the

25     indictment actually doesn't make any such allegations.  At least not with

Page 46695

 1     this kind of specificity.  But in any event, it's just -- it's just

 2     leading to do it this way.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Probably by "indictment" he might have included your

 5     pre-trial brief.  But could you explain why making reference to the

 6     indictment and pre-trial brief is leading in its nature?

 7             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Well, it's just providing the witness with

 8     information as to how his answer might impact on the accused's guilt or

 9     innocence, and --

10             JUDGE KWON:  But it's -- can he not ask whether an allegation in

11     the indictment is true or not?

12             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Well, he can just ask the question without --

13             JUDGE KWON:  But you --

14             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Without saying --

15             JUDGE KWON:  But you rose when he was reading out -- making

16     reference to the indictment, "Alleges that Muslims and Croats were

17     dismissed from our service and that it was impossible for them to work,"

18     and that's the moment you stood up.

19             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Yes, Your Honour.  And I -- I maintained that in

20     my position that it's leading because it tells the witness how his answer

21     to a question might impact on the accused's guilt or innocence to the

22     charges, and in that respect I think it's leading and I see no need.  If

23     he can -- he can just ask questions about whether Muslims or Croats were

24     dismissed from certain positions.

25             JUDGE KWON:  When you are asking -- the Prosecution is asking a

Page 46696

 1     question to the witness, you make references to a lot of exhibit numbers.

 2     So it's just for the Chamber to follow and for the cross-reference.  I

 3     don't see any problem with it.

 4             But, Mr. Robinson, could you assist us.

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, I think it would be a lot of assistance if

 6     the Prosecution would wait until they hear the questions before they make

 7     objections.  This is a pattern and I'm sure they wouldn't appreciate it

 8     if we did that in the course of their cross-examination anticipating what

 9     we think the question is going to be.  So I think we would all be better

10     served if they would simply just wait until the question is put.  If

11     there is an objection, to put it at this time.  This seems to be a

12     pattern that is not helpful to the Chamber.

13             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Sorry, Your Honour.  If I could just reply.  It's

14     largely for technical reasons that we have to stand as soon as possible

15     because otherwise, because of the -- the fact that this is all going on

16     in B/C/S, the witness usually starts the answer before we get a chance to

17     object.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Let's hear the question.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Witness, in the area in the place where you worked - and we've

21     heard it had something to do with security - in the service where you

22     worked, how would you qualify it from the perspective of security,

23     national security?  Was it a sensitive place?

24        A.   It was a very important security service, and we had certain

25     obligations stipulated by the law.  In this initial period, the service

Page 46697

 1     was depoliticised.  The service was made up of professionals.  We were

 2     not members of any political party, and we were supposed to serve all

 3     national groups within the country.

 4             In that period when strife began at the political level, in my

 5     own centre people of all ethnicities continued to work.  And I can say

 6     that because I, as an operator of equipment, in end 1990 distributed to

 7     all active duty and reserve employees of the service a certain amount of

 8     weapons and ammunition, and the same was done when the president of the

 9     republic died.  In this emergency situation, it was decided that

10     employees of the security service should be armed.  And they were armed

11     regardless of ethnicity.  There is documentation about that.  And we made

12     quarterly reports about our levels of equipment, and we can see from

13     these lists that out of 68 employees, there was 27 Muslims and Croats who

14     also received weapons, official IDs, and ammunition.

15        Q.   Thank you, could you just clarify when the president of the

16     republic died?  Which president do you mean and which time was it when

17     you distributed weapons?

18        A.   That was when the president of Yugoslavia, Josip Bros Tito, died.

19     I was then employed with the service and I know these things.

20        Q.   And in which period did these 27 Croats and Muslims work in your

21     unit?

22        A.   Both before and after.  I believe there is documentation; for

23     instance, a security provided to the mission to the United Nations and --

24     of the United Nations and the EU was provided by Muslims and Serbs

25     together.  We can see from the notes that they wrote and the records they

Page 46698

 1     made, they did it jointly because a decision had been made to make up

 2     mixed teams.  And that's how it was done.

 3        Q.   When you say before and after, are you talking about the death of

 4     President Tito or after what?  Which time are you talking about?

 5        A.   My last answer referred to the teams guarding Hotel Bosna.  They

 6     provided security to international delegations who came to attend the

 7     funeral.  And I also talked about teams that participated in peace

 8     efforts between HVO, the Croatian forces, and the Serb forces.  They

 9     participated on an equal footing in these missions.

10        Q.   When the war broke out, did these representatives of other ethnic

11     communities in your agencies continue to work or were they dismissed?

12        A.   They continued to work.  I know some of them personally who are

13     still in the police force and in the top security agency.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D9655 is the document I'd like to

15     call up next.  It should not be broadcast because it could identify the

16     witness.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Could you tell us what is this document?

19        A.   This is the duty service log-book of the mission providing

20     security to ECMM, European monitors, and you can see all the people who

21     served as guards.  And you can see that alongside Serbs there were Croats

22     and Muslims.

23        Q.   This Meho, the ninth person from the top, what is his ethnicity?

24        A.   Muslim.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Two lines below, Hajrudin, what is his ethnicity?

Page 46699

 1        A.   Also Muslim.

 2        Q.   The last one, (redacted) Slavko.

 3        A.   Let me see.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we redact the last name, let

 5     it be just Slavko.

 6             Next page, please.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   On this page, would you draw our attention to something in

 9     particular?

10        A.   Under number 3, you have Amir (redacted)  It says -- it's misspelled

11     here.  The man was "Amor" not "Amir."

12        Q.   Leave out the last names.

13        A.   Amor and Zeljko.  The first one is a Muslim, the second one is a

14     Croat.

15        Q.   Thank you.  The third and fourth line from the bottom, are they

16     also a Muslim and a Croat?

17        A.   Yes, yes.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Next page, please.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   All right.  It seems that there are more names listed here of

22     persons whom they were guarding rather than the guards.

23        A.   Yes.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tender this document under seal

25     for identification pending translation.

Page 46700

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Do we know the time-frame for this?

 2             Yes, Mr. Witness.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was in 1992.  This log-book

 4     was created in the beginning of 1992.  It was started at the beginning of

 5     1992 and for the duration of the stay of representatives of the UN and EU

 6     in Banja Luka.  This log-book was kept recording interesting information

 7     about their missions into the field, any incidents that might have

 8     happened, et cetera, and the same team stayed on this mission, on this

 9     job throughout 1992.

10             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure we should put this under seal.

11             Mr. Robinson or Ms. Gustafson?  Yeah, we go back to -- go to

12     private session, briefly.

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20                           [Open session]

21             THE REGISTRAR:  We are now in open session.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Witness.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe these documents certainly

24     identify me because --

25             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Shall we go back to private session.

Page 46701

 1                           [Private session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  We are now in open session, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark this for identification, under seal.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D4303 under seal, Your Honours.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, when did you think

25     we would have our next break?  Because so far we had a bit of an unusual

Page 46702

 1     schedule.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  How much more for your examination-in-chief?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Three documents, similar topics.  I

 4     don't think I'll take long.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  We shall take a break.

 6             We shall have a break for 40 minutes and the resume at 20 past

 7     1.00.

 8                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.41 p.m.

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10                           [The witness takes the stand]

11                           --- On resuming at 1.23 p.m.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Mr. Witness, in your job did you have an opportunity to examine

16     the work of Merhamet, which was a Muslim humanitarian organisation, and

17     did you co-operate with that organisation?

18        A.   Yes.  I co-operated with Merhamet.  I was a liaison officer who

19     actually inspected and communicated with all religious institutions,

20     which means that I had very good relations with all the three religions

21     and organisation which were their integral parts.

22        Q.   Those three humanitarian organisations that belonged to three

23     different religions, were they treated differently when it came to the

24     performance of their duties?  Was any one of them discriminated against?

25        A.   As far as I know, none of them was discriminated against.  The

Page 46703

 1     people resorted to them because there was a shortage of all bare

 2     necessities, irrespective of their ethnic affiliation; for example, if

 3     Caritas had some humanitarian aid, they would distribute it equally to

 4     all religious groups and the same went for the other two religions.

 5     There were no divisions along either ethnic or religious lines.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

 7     1D9657 and the document shouldn't be broadcast.  A redacted version can

 8     be prepared to become a public version of this document.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Could you tell us about this document but use as few names as

11     possible.

12        A.   This document was issued by Merhamet, in keeping with the

13     previous agreement, sent a list of the personnel that they needed for

14     humanitarian activities.  Those people were to go to Zagreb and back

15     because in Zagreb they had a supply centre where they kept their

16     humanitarian aid.

17        Q.   The date is 20th October.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go to the following page,

19     please.

20             Again, this shouldn't be broadcast.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   In the second paragraph, it says -- no, the first paragraph:

23             "We have received your letter," so-and-so, "in respect of our

24     request," and so on and so forth, "you inform us about the possibility of

25     assigning military conscripts to work for Merhamet."

Page 46704

 1             What would have been the religious affiliation of those

 2     conscripts you assigned to work in Merhamet?

 3        A.   It was only logical that we assigned Muslims to those duties.  At

 4     the end of the day, those people would have worked for an organisation

 5     that belonged to a -- the Muslim population and Merhamet was one of them.

 6        Q.   In the second paragraph, it says:

 7             "We appreciate your willingness to give us a number of people to

 8     work in Merhamet to maintain its functions.  However, the fact is that

 9     those functions cannot be implemented if only the elderly and infirm

10     people are engaged, both women and men, and persons who were born before

11     1947.  In addition to the fact that we have very few staff, we emphasise

12     that we need a certain number of military conscripts who are educated and

13     physically able to perform certain duties."

14             What was the response of your associates and yourself to this

15     request?

16        A.   This request was written because they needed personnel.  At that

17     time we have -- had a shortage of everything including medicines,

18     toiletries, food stuffs, so it was in our mutual interest to have as much

19     supplies as possible, which is why we met their request.  However, this

20     was a normal channel of communication.  First everything was agreed, then

21     they sent us a letter, and then we would send them our approval.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go to the following page,

24     please.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 46705

 1        Q.   Let me ask you this:  These Muslim military conscripts, were they

 2     duty-bound to respond to mobilisation calls the same as Serbs did?

 3        A.   Yes, they should have done that.

 4        Q.   Were they forced to joint the Army Republika Srpska?

 5        A.   No, nobody was forced to do that.  However, those who did not

 6     respond to call-ups were considered to be in breach of discipline, so

 7     they lost some of their benefits in the companies that they worked for.

 8        Q.   What does this mean, they asked for certain age groups or people

 9     of certain ages; right?

10        A.   Yes.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And now the last page.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Were their requests met, Mr. Witness?

14        A.   As far as I know, their requests were met.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

16     document into evidence, and it should be marked for identification.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Why should this -- should this not have been

18     broadcast?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, on the first page

20     there is a name that should not become public.

21             Can we go back to the first page?  If this name is redacted and

22     the name of the addressee or just the name, then this version can also

23     become public.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll mark it for identification under seal.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D4304 under seal, Your Honours.

Page 46706

 1             JUDGE KWON:  So we'll -- are you going to tender a redacted

 2     version, Mr. Robinson?

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  That will be MFI D4305.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, your Excellencies.  At

 6     this moment, I have no further questions of this witness.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 8             Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

 9             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10                           Cross-examination by Ms. Gustafson:

11        Q.   And good afternoon, sir.

12        A.   Good afternoon.

13        Q.   Now in your statement you talked about a lack of communications.

14     You said that when the war broke out, there was no direct communication

15     with the republic for a while.  And I believe you're referring to

16     communications from the Banja Luka CSB to the republic level of the MUP;

17     is that correct?

18        A.   I was referring to the communications between Krajina where we

19     were and Pale, where the leadership was.  The communications channels

20     used were the same for the police and for all the others.

21        Q.   Okay.  During what period of time, specifically, do you claim

22     there were no communications between the Banja Luka CSB and the RS MUP

23     headquarters?

24        A.   That happened after the conflicts broke out.  The territory was

25     cut off.  After 20 years, it's very hard for me to give you the exact

Page 46707

 1     time, but I believe that that happened before the corridor was created

 2     and even later due to some technical problems.  And the communication

 3     links did not function as well as they should have.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Well, the evidence in this case is that the corridor was

 5     created in late June 1992.  So accepting that, would it be your position

 6     that from roughly mid-April to late June 1992 there were no

 7     communications between the Banja Luka CSB and the RS MUP?

 8        A.   I can't pin-point the time.  What I'm saying is that

 9     communications were bad, there were total interruptions at times.  There

10     were periods of time when there was no communication at all.  If I give

11     you any specific times, I may be wrong.  I know that such things did

12     happen, but I really can't tell you when exactly.

13        Q.   Are you aware that the RS MUP produced daily bulletins containing

14     information on security matters, information that was gathered from the

15     CSBs which they had in turn gathered from the SJB in their area?  Are you

16     aware of that practice?

17        A.   No, I'm not aware of that.  I have never seen a bulletin of that

18     kind.

19        Q.   So I suppose you're similarly unaware that between mid-April and

20     late June, the RS MUP daily bulletins regularly contained detailed

21     information on security events in municipalities within the Banja Luka

22     CSB area?

23             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Examples would be P2748, 2749, P2791, P2762.

24        Q.   Are you unaware of that fact?

25        A.   I can't say anything about that [as interpreted].  I know that

Page 46708

 1     communications functioned at times.  At times they didn't.  I don't know

 2     for how long.  I can't give you any dates.  I was not directly involved

 3     in communications, so I can't speak about them.  I know that often they

 4     were interrupted, that there were frequent problems with communications

 5     at the republican level.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.  The beginning of the

 7     sentence on line 22, the witness said, "I can't confirm that," and the

 8     rest of that reply has been properly recorded and this obviously can be

 9     reviewed by listening to the tape.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Do you confirm that -- having said that,

11     Mr. Witness?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I said that I could not

13     confirm that statement.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

15             Please continue.

16             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you.

17        Q.   In your previous answer you said you know that there were

18     frequent problems with communications at the republican level, but you

19     also say that you were not directly involved in communications.  The

20     Chamber has received evidence from Dragan Kezunovic, who was the chief of

21     communications for the RS MUP, and he testified that although not all of

22     the communication systems worked all the time, there was always some way

23     of communicating.  And that's P2743, paragraph 10.  I take it you would

24     agree that the chief of communications for the RS MUP is better placed

25     than you to access the quality of communications between the RS MUP and

Page 46709

 1     the CSBs during this period of time?

 2        A.   I can only give you my observations.  I know that at the time the

 3     problem existed.  Now as to whether the chief of communications was

 4     better informed or not, I don't know.  I only knew that there were major

 5     problems with that and things did happen.  How people managed to bridge

 6     that gap, whether that was via couriers or in another way, I don't know.

 7     And I don't know whether they sent daily reports or whether they sent

 8     occasional reports with certain delays.  I don't know.  Other people did

 9     that.

10        Q.   Now at paragraph 4 of your statement, you claim that the ethnic

11     composition of the Banja Luka CSB was, for the most part, unchanged

12     before the war and after it started.  And then you list a number of

13     non-Serbs by name who you claim were employees of the security service

14     both before and after the war started.  But it's true, is it not, that a

15     number of the people that you specifically mention didn't remain

16     employees of the CSB for very long after the war began.  They were gone

17     within a few months; right?

18        A.   The fact is that some left.  A majority of those people remained

19     and they continued working.  They didn't leave because somebody had

20     ordered them to do so.  Some believed that the area was not safe and they

21     sought out solutions in some other parts of our former state.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go into private session, please.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

24                           [Private session]

25   (redacted)

Page 46710











11  Pages 46710-46713 redacted.  Private session.















Page 46714

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We are now in open session, Your Honours.

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:

25        Q.   Sir, at paragraph 11 of your statement you state that during the

Page 46715

 1     war most members of the special police unit were conscientious and

 2     responsible men who did not commit offences, and you state that members

 3     of the unit were removed for disciplinary reasons including committing

 4     crimes.  Now, the truth is that the Banja Luka CSB special police unit

 5     was well known for its criminality and its members were not properly

 6     punished for their crimes; right?

 7        A.   Well, I would not agree with you.  In that period those who had a

 8     lack of discipline or did not respect the command, they were sent away

 9     from the unit and it was up to the judiciary to initiate further

10     proceedings.  About 40 persons were sent out of the unit because of

11     certain actions that were not in accordance with the code of conduct of

12     the police or the military.

13             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could have D4139, please.

14        Q.   Now, this is a report from Simo Drljaca from the Prijedor SJB to

15     the Banja Luka CSB, and you have seen this before.  And as you can see,

16     it describes rampant misconduct by special police unit members under a

17     member by the name of Strazivuk who were arbitrarily arresting,

18     interrogating, and abusing prisoners at the Omarska camp, and towards the

19     end of the report it also refers to the -- to complaints about the

20     conduct of the special unit and their looting during moping-up

21     operations.  Now, this reference to Mr. Strazivuk, that's

22     Slobodan Strazivuk who was a member of the special police unit; right?

23        A.   I assume that that is so.

24        Q.   Now in your statement you blame crimes in Prijedor detention

25     facilitates on paramilitaries, but in fact as this report shows, members

Page 46716

 1     of the Banja Luka CSB special police units stood out even by Omarska

 2     standards for the criminal behaviour there; correct?

 3        A.   I cannot say anything about this.  I know that part of the

 4     members there did certain illegal things, but the main problem in respect

 5     of these illegal things was that in that area, along with some

 6     unconscientious members, there were some members of units -- different

 7     units that had withdrawn from Slovenia and Croatia and that did some of

 8     these illegal things and were not under the control either of the army or

 9     the police and that was the main problem.  That is why there were certain

10     activities and plans to bring an end to such things.  Therefore, a

11     decision was made that all paramilitary units, special units, and some

12     that were self-styled, that they should all be disbanded and that at the

13     level of Republika Srpska a single unit would be formed that would be

14     under a single command, and that practically it would include only

15     persons - that was the decision --

16        Q.   [Overlapping speakers]

17        A.   -- that was there anyway --

18        Q.   I interrupted you because you were moving away from my question

19     which was about this particular incident which I would like to get back

20     to.  My next question relates to this as well.  Mr. Strazivuk continued

21     to operate as a special unit member even after this information was sent

22     to the CSB chief about his failure to control the criminal behaviour of

23     his subordinates; right?

24        A.   Well, in that period there were certain conflicts between

25     Mr. Simo Drljaca and the members of the special detachment, and there

Page 46717

 1     were some rumours, I guess that was by way of justification, that the

 2     forces that Drljaca had at his disposal were also involved in some of

 3     these activities that were not in line, so there were some clashes in

 4     that regard.  And then everything, I mean, was ascribed to the special

 5     unit, everything that was not regular.  This was some kind of internal

 6     investigation that was underway, I think.

 7             Otherwise, the communication between the CSB and the centre in

 8     Prijedor was not normal.  Often, there were certain problems and there

 9     were certain illegal things that were done by Mr. Drljaca, because, as a

10     matter of fact, he even seized -- seized equipment from our people

11     without having the authority to do so.

12        Q.   Sir, your answer is not even remotely connected to my question,

13     responsive to my question, which was:  Slobodan Strazivuk continued to

14     operate as a special unit member even after this information was sent to

15     the CSB chief about his failure to control the criminal behaviour of his

16     subordinates; right?

17        A.   Well, specifically this information was sent to the chief of the

18     centre.  It didn't go down to me.  I cannot say how this investigation

19     was completed, and the chief of the centre probably rounded all of this

20     off.  Now, whether this is correct or not correct, but if this man is on

21     the list of members of that unit, that means that he stayed on.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 46718

 1             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could go to page 3 in both languages.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Why don't we show the B/C/S.

 3             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 4        Q.   Under number 44, we see Slobodan Strazivuk receiving and signing

 5     for his salary in August 1992; correct?

 6        A.   Yes.  But that is a right that had been agreed upon for all

 7     members of the unit, regardless of whether they were in the unit at that

 8     moment.  Because when it was disbanded in mid-July, after that it was

 9     stated that they would all get this one salary for August, regardless of

10     whether they were there or not because allegedly that is what was

11     decided.  I don't know who it was that made the decision, but the

12     decision was made that they should be paid from the resources of the

13     centre up until August.  And that is when the centre no longer had any

14     obligation towards them.

15             Now at that moment, whether Strazivuk was still in the unit or

16     not, that I don't know.  I only know -- well, from this list one can see

17     that active personnel were not receiving salaries that we were actually

18     linked to the centre and not to the unit, financially speaking, because

19     we exercised all our status-related rights at the centre.

20        Q.   Now in your previous answer you referred to an investigation into

21     this misconduct in Omarska by special unit members.  The truth is there

22     were no disciplinary proceedings initiated in relation to this incident;

23     correct?

24        A.   I do not know what was done, what was done by superior people.

25     At any rate if this information arrived, somebody had to take that into

Page 46719

 1     account and somebody must have done that work in terms of ascertaining

 2     the truth concerning that dispatch.

 3             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go back to 65 ter 25977, please,

 4     page 364.

 5        Q.   And again, sir, this is your prior testimony.  And at line 21,

 6     you're being asked about the report we just saw from Drljaca to Zupljanin

 7     about the misconduct of the special unit.  And you're asked:

 8             "This is somewhat ironically, I suppose, one could say a

 9     complaint from Simo Drljaca on the 13th of June where we hear the same

10     theme.  The unit whose members were commanded by the gentleman who is

11     named there was not able to control any -- exert any control over the

12     conduct of his troops.  That was the main reason why the troops assigned

13     duties as Omarska," if we go to the next page, "behaved with such extreme

14     negligence.  What they did there had least of all to do with security."

15             And she's reading -- the lawyer is reading from the document.

16     And at line 8, she says:

17             "Now, this was addressed to Stojan Zupljanin.  Did he pass that

18     complaint on to you to investigate?"

19             And you answer:

20             "This was not conveyed to me personally.

21             "I'm trying to remember.  I think that there was some kind of

22     back and forth between the special and local police.  They were

23     quarrelling, so it turned out to be a quarrel between them.  I think that

24     both of them behaved improperly, but there were stories.  I think

25     somebody did conduct that procedure.  I think this was on the

Page 46720

 1     13th of June.

 2             "I don't remember any disciplinary proceedings on this matter.  I

 3     don't remember conducting anything like that.  It was probably at the

 4     time when there was nobody there to do that."

 5             Now your prior testimony stating that you weren't aware of any

 6     disciplinary proceedings into this incident is correct; right?

 7        A.   I said now as well that I assumed that higher instances were

 8     resolving that and I also said that there was this conflict between the

 9     police of Prijedor and of Banja Luka, between Simo Drljaca and

10     Stojan Zupljanin, that there was not good communication in terms of

11     co-operation, and that there were problems.  I specifically know that our

12     two operatives were almost arrested --

13        Q.   [Overlapping speakers]

14        A.   -- when they asked to have it established who was driving a car

15     that had not been registered and that had been stolen in Banja Luka.

16        Q.   I was simply asking you to confirm your prior testimony on this

17     matter.

18             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I tender these two pages as well.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll add them to Exhibit P6653.

20             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could go to D1562, please.

21        Q.   And again, sir, you've seen this document before which is a

22     report from the Banja Luka -- sorry, from the Banja Luka SJB to the

23     Banja Luka CSB alleging that four members of the Banja Luka CSB special

24     police detachment committed the crime of robbery and aggravated theft; in

25     particular, by stealing a car of -- belonged to a person by the name of

Page 46721

 1     Amir Durgutovic.  Now that person was a Muslim; correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And it states that criminal reports were filed against four

 4     special unit members:  Radomir Boskan -- who is on page 2 of both

 5     languages:  Radomir Boskan, Miroslav Dragojevic [phoen], Ljubomir Jokic,

 6     and Dusan Dragojevic [phoen].  Now these four special detachment members

 7     were arrested and they were shortly thereafter broken out of gaol by

 8     other special detachment members; correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could go to D1801, please.

11        Q.   This is a report on that prison breakout in the publication

12     "Glas," and the report goes down -- largely down the left-hand -- far

13     left column, and this is from July 23rd, so two days after the criminal

14     reports were filed.

15             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could go to the second page in the

16     English and the top of the third column in the B/C/S.  If we could just

17     scroll up a little bit.

18        Q.   And in the third column from the left --

19             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Next one over, actually.  There is a quote from

20     Mr. Ecim which goes on to the next column as well, so if we could zoom

21     out a little bit to see what's on the --

22        Q.   And Ecim is talking about the breakout.  He says the job was done

23     in five minutes and we released Jokic and Dragojevic without a bullet

24     being fired.  Now it's clear, is it not, that, as this article indicates,

25     the breakout of the special police members from prison was at the very

Page 46722

 1     least approved by the deputy commander of the unit, Ljuban Ecim; right?

 2        A.   That is not correct.  Now I'm going to tell you what the problem

 3     is there.  I have already spoken about that.  There was a conflict

 4     between Tutus, Vladimir, and Stojan Zupljanin.  And there was this power

 5     struggle between the two them in Banja Luka.  Within this struggle there

 6     was this media game in terms of providing different information.  It is a

 7     fact that the vehicle in question was illegal.  So this -- at least

 8     that's what I was told.  This gentleman did not have proper documents for

 9     that vehicle, but that was a pretext for rising tensions.  And also it

10     was a power game, to show who was more powerful in town, the chief of the

11     centre of the public security services or of the security services in

12     general.

13             So the fact is that there was this release and, as far as I know,

14     without the consent of the command this was done by some members of that

15     unit together with some other supporters of theirs from the military.  So

16     practically, without any gun-fire they entered the prison and they got

17     these people out in contravention of prescribed standards.  But the

18     essence of all of this was the conflict in general.

19             There was this conflict of sorts between these local chiefs of

20     the public security station and the chief of the centre because everybody

21     wanted to be the man in charge in his own territory and his own town and

22     that nobody could influence his decisions.

23        Q.   Well, the quote I just read you from Mr. Ecim was:

24             "The job was done in five minutes and we released Jokic and

25     Dragojevic without a bullet being fired."

Page 46723

 1             Don't you agree that that reflects his approval of this breakout?

 2        A.   Well, obviously you haven't read the entire text.  It says here,

 3     very nicely, that people of their own initiative decided on this release,

 4     and they did that within a few minutes without a single bullet being

 5     fired; that is to say, there were no victims.  And it says here, very

 6     nicely, that none of the members of the command had approved of this

 7     activity.

 8        Q.   Can you point me to where it says "none of the members of this

 9     command had approved this activity"?

10        A.   Well, if you understand our language:  People on their own

11     initiative without anyone's approval decided to break out.  This job, or

12     as we call it, was done in five minutes, and they were freed without a

13     single bullet being fired.

14        Q.   So you agree this article does not state:  "None of the members

15     of this command had approved this activity"?

16        A.   That's what I said.  That's what I just said.  It's written here

17     in the article, and it also says here that we went to see

18     Stojan Zupljanin around 2.30 in the morning and warned him that people

19     had decided to attack.  All right, there were some indications that might

20     happen and thanks to Zupljanin we didn't do that.  He gave us a firm

21     promise --

22        Q.   Sir --

23        A.   -- that the people would be released.

24        Q.   Sir --

25        A.   And then it follows as I described.  People on their own

Page 46724

 1     initiative --

 2        Q.   Again, you're moving away from my question.

 3             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Your Honours, my time is nearly up.  I can

 4     conclude in 10 to 15 minutes.  I have two brief topics to cover, with

 5     your leave.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue.

 7             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you.

 8        Q.   Now, sir, in your statement you claim that Stojan Zupljanin's

 9     orders to the SJBs, including orders to Prijedor, Kljuc, and Sanski Most

10     were not respected and exactly the opposite of what he ordered was done.

11     Now, given your position at the time, I take it you were not directly

12     involved in the issuing of Zupljanin's orders to the SJBs or ensuring

13     that they were implemented; is that right?

14        A.   I was not involved, but I received information about the

15     situation in the field because I had friendly sources in these centres

16     and I knew what the general sentiment was and how they behaved when they

17     received certain requests from the centre.  There was a tendency not to

18     obey orders from the centre and local mandarins imposed themselves as the

19     only interpreters of whatever came from above and the only ones who

20     decided about certain activities.  They were little sultans in their own

21     little fiefdoms.

22        Q.   Well, the Chamber has received evidence of Mr. Drljaca, for

23     example, in Prijedor responding immediately to Mr. Zupljanin's

24     dispatches.

25             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Examples would be P5471, P5518, P3968, and D1865.

Page 46725

 1        Q.   In light of your previous answer, I won't go into these

 2     dispatches, but I will ask you if you are able to identify any concrete

 3     example of a specific order by Mr. Zupljanin that was not respected by

 4     one of the SJBs that you identify?

 5        A.   If I tell you that Mr. Drljaca practically arrested our men in

 6     Prijedor when they came to insist that measures be applied to one person

 7     who seized an AT vehicle from Banja Luka and drove it around Prijedor

 8     without any license number, their communication devices were seized from

 9     them and they practically ran away from Prijedor to avoid further

10     embarrassment and problems.  If you took these documents from the

11     security services centre, you will see that an Official Note was made

12     about this incident.  Two of our men and owners of the car were

13     mistreated in Prijedor by Simo Drljaca and the inspector who is in charge

14     of car theft.  If that is not an example of the disrespect shown to the

15     security services centre and its employees who, in the hierarchy should

16     be higher, I really don't know what proof you would recognise.  There was

17     genuine disrespect by these lower-ranked stations and centres vis-a-vis

18     the centre in Banja Luka.  That was a general rule.  I said that before

19     and I stand by it.

20        Q.   Well, again, you didn't respond to my question, so let me ask it

21     this way:  You're -- this claim of yours about the dysfunction in the

22     hierarchy is based on nothing more than rumours; right?  You don't have

23     any concrete evidence to support that Mr. Zupljanin's orders were not

24     followed by the SJBs?

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.

Page 46726

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It couldn't be more specific than

 3     the example the witness just gave.  It couldn't possibly be more

 4     specific.  Members of the security services centre were mistreated --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  No, no.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- in the public security station

 7     in Prijedor.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  No, your objection is overruled.

 9             Please continue.

10             Or can you answer the question?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I know that adequate action was not

12     taken regarding the illegal activities committed by members of the

13     Prijedor centre in the Koricani area.  An investigation was ordered.  It

14     was ordered that all the bodies be recovered and returned to Prijedor,

15     but as far as I know Mr. Drljaca did not comply.  If that is not enough,

16     I really don't know.

17             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to 65 ter 25976, page 16 in both

18     languages.  And this should not be shown to the public, please.

19        Q.   And just to orient you, sir, this is from your -- the interview

20     you gave to the Office of the Prosecutor in 2002, and I'd like to direct

21     your attention to the first question at the top of the page.  In your

22     language, this is about halfway down in the English.  And about halfway

23     through that question you're asked:

24             "Now do you agree or disagree with that statement by

25     Mr. Zupljanin, that that was in fact a true statement that his orders

Page 46727

 1     were effectively the law once they had been issued orally or written."

 2             And you answer:

 3             "I think not."

 4             And then you're asked to explain why it would be permissible to

 5     ignore an order made by Stojan Zupljanin.  And you say:

 6             "These were strange times.  At that time the subordination

 7     hierarchy didn't function, so the subordination lines were at times

 8     broken.  And some SUP stations had closer ties with the local political

 9     organs."

10             And then you state:

11             "I have no official proof or evidence for this statement of

12     mine."

13             And on the next page in the English:

14             "But you know there were rumours through the grave-vine.  We

15     would hear that, for example, what the chief Stojan Zupljanin orders to

16     Srbac, Prnjavor, or some other areas, just the opposite would be done."

17             Now in 2002 you told the OTP that your claim about

18     Mr. Zupljanin's orders not being followed was based on nothing more than

19     rumours.  You had no evidence for that; correct?

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  Objection.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

22             THE ACCUSED:  Misleading.  [Interpretation] The witness said in

23     lines 15 and 16 that he had no concrete proof about the link of those

24     local police stations with political authorities, not that he had no

25     evidence that there was --

Page 46728

 1             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Sorry.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- so respect.  So it's completely

 3     misleading.

 4             MS. GUSTAFSON:  He just provided an answer to the witness.  The

 5     witness is perfectly capable of giving that interpretation if he agrees

 6     with it, now that he's been handed it.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excuse me, the question redefines

 8     his answer and misrepresents it.  In repeating the question, let

 9     Madam Prosecutor not redefine what the witness said.

10             JUDGE KWON:  I find your intervention totally inappropriate this

11     time.

12             Shall we continue.

13             JUDGE MORRISON:  Mr. Witness, is what you're saying this:  What

14     you said in 2002 and what you're saying today is in essence the same

15     thing, that what you know of indiscipline and interpersonnel rivalry came

16     to you by way of rumor and hearsay rather than in a direct experience of

17     yourself?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would like to mention one detail

19     that will make all this very clear.  At the moment when I was giving this

20     statement, I had no official evidence that would point out specific cases

21     of disobedience or disrespect.  However, in the meantime, I got hold of

22     an Official Note written by one member of the security services centre.

23     In that note, he complains about that case of car theft.  In Banja Luka,

24     it was a very valuable car, Audi A8, and our representatives took the car

25     owner in Prijedor -- to Prijedor and asked for a meeting with

Page 46729

 1     Simo Drljaca.  Simo Drljaca sent them to the department that dealt with

 2     car theft, and then he climbed down there himself, mistreated them, took

 3     away their Motorolas or whatever, they couldn't call the centre anymore,

 4     and when a group of policemen came from Banja Luka to bring in a suspect

 5     suspected of a crime committed in Banja Luka, they, our men, took

 6     advantage of this opportunity to leave the centre and left the town using

 7     by-roads because they were afraid that if they meet some more police from

 8     Prijedor they could run into more trouble.  I think that is a perfect

 9     example of dysfunctional relations between lower and higher instances.

10             If you have a car owner with all the proper papers complaining

11     that his car was stolen and they refuse to arrest the suspect, they use a

12     pretext like, You people from Banja Luka are not authorised, that's a

13     perfect example especially because the chief of that centre,

14     Simo Drljaca, was present.  And it's written in that Official Note that I

15     read.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

17             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could go to page 18 in the English and

18     page 17 in the B/C/S.

19        Q.   And this is, sir, about halfway down in the B/C/S and right at

20     the top of the page in the English, and you're still being asked about

21     this same topic, and you're asked:

22             "Can you remember in which areas this problem was the worst in

23     your opinion?"

24             And you ask:

25             "Which problem is being referred to?"

Page 46730

 1             And it says:

 2             "The problem you have identified which in that orders were not

 3     carried out."

 4             And you say:

 5             "As I said, there were some rumours that it was -- there were

 6     regions of Srbac and Prnjavor, but I also think that something similar

 7     was happening in Banja Luka."

 8             Now that -- it's correct, is it not, that in 2002 you were asked

 9     where this problem of insubordination was the worst.  And the only areas

10     you identified were Srbac, Prnjavor, and Banja Luka; right?

11        A.   I think that's not relevant at all because I cited that as

12     examples.  I could have cited practically 50 per cent of all

13     municipalities as an example, and in Banja Luka it's common knowledge

14     there was no good co-operation between these two chiefs and their

15     conflict, which also reflected itself in the media of both of them vying

16     for power.  That conflict finally led to the replacement of them both.

17     Both Vladimir Tutus and Stojan Zupljanin were replaced probably because

18     somebody from the higher authorities realised that their rivalry is only

19     hurting the work of the police, so both of them were removed from their

20     positions.

21             I don't know exactly when but I know that one of the reasons,

22     perhaps the major reason, is that there was no agreement between them

23     concerning certain activities.

24        Q.   Sir --

25        A.   So if Stojan Zupljanin ordered something to Vladimir Tutus it

Page 46731

 1     would not be --

 2        Q.   We are now far away from my question.

 3             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I have no further questions.  I would just tender

 4     the three pages we just looked at from this interview.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  We'll receive it.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6654 under seal, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             Could we bring back page 17, the last one we saw, without

10     broadcasting.

11                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Look at lines 13 and 14, Witness, your answer,

13     and please read it out loud.

14             THE ACCUSED:  Serbian.  Serbian version, please.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   You were told that you mentioned only Prnjavor, Banja Luka, and

17     another place.  Read your answer in line 13.

18        A.   "Yes.  And there was this desire, you know, that every little

19     region that somebody be The King in their own little fiefdoms.  That's

20     what I called little sultanites and pashas.  Everyone in their own

21     backyard."

22        Q.   You said, Witness, that you don't remember any measures were

23     taken but you believe they were.  How would you answer that question now,

24     if you don't remember?  Do you believe or do you know that measures were

25     not taken?

Page 46732

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Don't answer.

 2             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I mean, I don't even understand that question.  I

 3     don't know what he's referring to from the witness's evidence.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.  Line -- or rather,

 5     page 95, you are quoted as saying that you don't remember that measures

 6     were taken.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   So because of the language problems, do you mean -- in fact, you

 9     mentioned that you believe they were taken.  Can you now be more precise?

10        A.   I said that at any rate, in any case, whenever we had a report,

11     appropriate measures were taken.  I cannot say now what specific measures

12     were taken and what was done because the tempo of life and work was such

13     at the time that I simply couldn't follow everything that was happening

14     in that area.  But it's certain that certain measures were taken.  The

15     very fact that from our own unit we removed 40 people speaks eloquently

16     to that, and the same was done in other units.  So those people who did

17     not obey the law or got involved in criminal activities were removed from

18     their detachments.

19        Q.   Can you tell us what happened finally with that unit?  Forty men

20     were removed and what happened with the unit?

21        A.   The entire unit was placed under the command of General Talic, so

22     they transferred to the army.  And the decision had been taken that

23     nobody who hadn't finished the police school could join the police force.

24     So a certain number went into the security service.  I know that later a

25     unit was established at the level of Republika Srpska that was in charge

Page 46733

 1     of special police operations at the level of Republika Srpska.  They had

 2     a single command and they were structured in keeping with the normal

 3     organisation.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown D4273,

 5     briefly.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Could you tell us whether perpetrators of criminal acts were

 8     tolerated?  Did the authorities turn a blind eye?

 9        A.   From what I know, perpetrators of crimes were punished by the

10     competent authorities.

11        Q.   Look at this.  27 July, Minister Stanisic, he's repeating in

12     keeping with his own order, made on the 23rd, that individuals who are

13     suspected or found guilty of criminal activities to be replaced, that

14     such units be disbanded immediately and then returned to the army.

15     Line 5, the special police detachment of the Ministry of the Interior

16     shall be -- shall perform duties pursuant to the law, and whenever there

17     are valid reasons the implementation of this order and provision of

18     special assistance shall be overseen by chief of police Milos Zuban.  And

19     then make sure to remove from areas where there are -- when they are

20     active all groups and individuals who are not under the control of the

21     Army of the Serbian Republic, et cetera, et cetera.

22             How is this consistent with your own knowledge about the

23     attitude, the stance taken by the authorities to such cases?

24        A.   It was the decision of the higher authorities to disband all

25     paramilitary units.  And even before this order, there was another order

Page 46734

 1     followed by this official one, but there was another earlier order saying

 2     that all these units would be disbanded, paid, and turned over to the

 3     army by 31st August until which time they were due to receive their

 4     salary, although they were practically disbanded already in July, because

 5     that decision had already been made.  And during those days, they

 6     returned to the military structure.  This shows that the central

 7     authority wanted to create a unit that would have all the attributes of a

 8     police unit and would not be confused with the army as was the case with

 9     the previous one.

10        Q.   Thank you.  That happened on the 27th of July.  And now let's see

11     what the CSB in Banja Luka reported on in August.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

13     65 ter 5713.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Witness, could you please tell us --

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But before that, can we see the top

17     of the document in the Serbian version.  I need to see the date on this

18     fax message.  Can the facsimile of the fax message please be zoomed in.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Would you agree that this was sent on the 5th of August, 1992?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   It says here report on the information and activities of this.

23     We don't have to read the whole document.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go to the following page in

25     both the Croatian and the English versions of the document.

Page 46735

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   I'm going to read the first paragraph at the top of the page, but

 3     let's see where the corresponding -- perhaps it's on the third page, if

 4     there indeed is a third page.  It says:

 5             "However, due to severed communications and the impossibility of

 6     quick data verification and the close relationship between some of the

 7     detachment members, the detachment has of late been joined by certain

 8     members who do not fulfil the established criteria and who have, by their

 9     behaviour, inflicted serious damage to the detachment and the service as

10     a whole.  The Security Services Centre and the detachment command have

11     undertaken prescribed measures against such soldiers."

12             The word missing from the English translation is "energetic."

13             Witness, how does this fit with your impressions and with your

14     conviction that some measures were indeed taken?

15        A.   This corroborates my statement according to which over 40 members

16     were removed from the detachment, which means that measures were indeed

17     taken and that persons who had not undergone training could no longer

18     join the centre.  We wanted all of the future employees to first go to

19     the school of the Ministry of the Interior that had been set up in

20     Banja Luka.  In that school, they had to learn certain things that also

21     had to do with the conduct of a police officer and the legality of their

22     work, as well as all the other parts of the syllabus.  This confirms that

23     there was an order issued by the ministry and that measures were taken --

24     all those measures that were available to us.  It is also emphasised that

25     one of the problems was at the -- the close ties among some people and

Page 46736

 1     impaired communications and that those two things prevented us from

 2     establishing whose behaviour was criminal because there was a lot of

 3     coverup among the people so not even the command was privy to all the

 4     details of the things that were happening.

 5             However, when we managed to establish certain things and prove

 6     them, people were gradually removed from the unit.

 7        Q.   Did you say that for family reasons there was a lot of coverup or

 8     just some other relations?

 9        A.   Yes, some people were relatives, some people were neighbours.

10     And as you know, in our midst being related can be a problem, so people

11     tended to cover up for the activities of some other people, so it was

12     very difficult to establish the truth.  However, as you can tell from

13     this document, certain measures were indeed taken.

14        Q.   And the last question, Mr. Witness:  When it says severed

15     communications and the impossibility of quick data verification, what

16     does that mean to you?

17        A.   Yes.  That was one of the problems.  For example, we had a lot of

18     people coming to us from Western Slavonia.  We didn't have any

19     communications with Western Slavonia.  Some came from Knin and its

20     environs.  People came from Croatia and Slovenia.  And for those people,

21     we could not establish who they were, not in the way we could for our

22     locals because for our locals we had files, personnel files, and based on

23     the data we could establish exactly whether those people were misbehaving

24     during a certain period of time.  They had to undergo medical checkups,

25     psychologists talked to those people who were to join the unit.  During

Page 46737

 1     the initial period, that hadn't been done and which is probably one of

 2     the reasons why the unit was eventually disbanded.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  I have no further questions of you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm tendering this document into

 5     evidence.

 6             MS. GUSTAFSON:  No objection.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  We'll receive it.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D4306, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  That concludes your evidence, Mr. Witness.  On

10     behalf of the Chamber, I'd like to thank you for your coming to The Hague

11     to give it.  You are now free to go.

12             Just wait until --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Please wait.  Some preparation will be done.

15             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

16             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

17             I saw the Court looking at the clock.  In that connection, I

18     wanted to note that Mr. Robinson and I have remained in contact about the

19     schedule.  I simply wanted to note that even with the Court's gracious

20     extension of time, our -- it is clearer now, we won't complete the next

21     witness.  So we're obviously prepared to --

22             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

23             Mr. Witness, you may be excused.

24                           [The witness withdrew]

25             MR. TIEGER:  I was going to finish -- going to conclude by

Page 46738

 1     saying:  We're certainly prepared to go forward, of course, but I didn't

 2     want us to reach the end of the extended period and find the Court

 3     surprised by the fact that the witness, nevertheless, would have to come

 4     back.  So I don't think this is in line with everything that Mr. Robinson

 5     and I have discussed, but if he has anything to add, he's more than

 6     welcome to do so.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  We have checked with the

 9     witness and he can return the week after next when the Prosecution

10     counsel who is scheduled to cross-examine him will be available, and

11     that's probably the best thing to do is to start his testimony when he

12     returns.

13             JUDGE KWON:  I tend to agree with you.

14             But there is one matter I would like to raise before we adjourn

15     for today.  It's directed towards the Defence, Mr. Karadzic and

16     Mr. Robinson.

17             Less than an hour ago, the Chamber received the Defence

18     submission of Mr. Mladic's statement.  In the statement, the Defence

19     state -- in the filing, the Defence states that it wishes the statement

20     to be part of the court record in this case so that it can be referred to

21     in the event the Chamber's decision not to compel Mladic to testify is an

22     issue on appeal.

23             I'm very concerned about this filing.  In a nutshell, it's just

24     invaliding or circumventing, abrogating the Chamber's order not to allow

25     him to read out the statement twice during the hearing.  The Chamber has

Page 46739

 1     been informed that this filing has already been distributed by the press

 2     office to the media, which I find problematic, but nonetheless the

 3     Chamber has ordered the Registry temporarily to reclassify this filing as

 4     confidential pending further order.

 5             Would you like to make any observation as to this, Mr. Robinson?

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  I don't see it in the same

 7     light that you do.  You didn't want General Mladic's statement to be part

 8     of the evidence in the case and that was your ruling and that was

 9     respected.  But, nevertheless, there is no prohibition upon that

10     statement being made public whether by General Mladic himself,

11     Dr. Karadzic, or anyone else in the further proceedings.

12             But in this particular case, if in fact the issue of the failure

13     to compel General Mladic is raised on appeal, if we are in that appeal

14     stage, it's important for us to show that his testimony would have been,

15     at least in part, favorable to Dr. Karadzic as opposed to someone who is

16     coming here where there is no showing whatsoever that his evidence would

17     have been favorable.  So the content of the statement demonstrates that

18     the statement, had he been allowed to read it, as well as the testimony

19     had it be compelled would have been favorable to Dr. Karadzic, and I

20     think it's very appropriate that that be part of the record.

21             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber clearly and specifically prohibited him

22     from reading out that document.  Now by filing it publicly, so that

23     anybody can read it, is just simply making a mockery of the Tribunal.

24             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, I don't see it that way at all.

25     You prevented him from reading that statement out because, first of all

Page 46740

 1     it's not appropriate for a witness to read out statement when they come

 2     to court.  And secondly, it wasn't appropriate for Dr. Karadzic to ask

 3     such an open-ended question as:  Can you read out a statement.  But there

 4     is nothing to prohibit General Mladic from making such a statement under

 5     any circumstances, whether it be in the courtroom or not, or for

 6     Dr. Karadzic to make outside of the courtroom public what General Mladic

 7     wanted to convey.  So I don't see how -- I didn't understand your order

 8     to mean that the contents of what General Mladic had to say was somehow

 9     never to be a part of the public report.  Simply, it wasn't appropriate

10     during these proceedings.  But not to put a -- some kind of a lid on what

11     he wanted to express in any forum.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  The question is why we should have it in our

13     record.

14             Mr. Tieger, do you have any observation?

15             MR. TIEGER:  Very quickly, Mr. President.  Our reaction was

16     similar to the Court's.  We were preparing an appropriate motion.  This

17     may not be the proper forum to explain it fully, the problematic nature

18     of this filing, but I think on the mere face of Mr. Robinson's response

19     to the Court, it's easy to see to simultaneously assert that it's not

20     appropriate, as he does here, for the courtroom, than to note that

21     General Mladic might be free to do whatever he wants with his statement

22     does not answer the question of why the Defence took it upon itself to

23     disseminate this in this manner at this time.  And I agree, it was -- it

24     also struck us in that fashion as well, inappropriate to do so.

25             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, just so -- in case I wasn't clear,

Page 46741

 1     I thought I said explicitly why we made this filing, which is to put in

 2     the record of the case, so for the purposes of appeal, that the content

 3     of General Mladic's statement as well as his testimony would have been

 4     favorable to Dr. Karadzic which is an element which will be important

 5     when the Appeals Chamber were reviewing whether or not there was error in

 6     the Chamber's failure to compel General Mladic to give evidence on behalf

 7     of Dr. Karadzic, so I think that's a perfectly legitimate reason for

 8     placing that letter in the record of this case.

 9             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, Mr. Robinson, might it not have better

10     simply to refer to the existence of a letter so that it could have been

11     judged on its prohibitive value by any Appeals Chamber at an appropriate

12     moment, because it -- there are two things:  First of all, there is an

13     assumption that it has either evidential or other prohibitive value; and

14     secondly, it rather destroys any discretion that any Chamber, Appeal or

15     Trial Chamber, might have as to parts of it which may or may not be fair

16     to Dr. Karadzic now that it's in the public domain.

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, I take your point.  But I'm not exactly sure

18     how we would have been able to preserve our record and yet have the

19     document available for review by the Appeals Chamber.  Perhaps we could

20     have put it in e-court without attaching it to a filing, but that's not

21     normally -- I didn't think of that, honestly.  And it's not normally what

22     we have been doing.  You know, when we have witnesses whose testimony

23     have been excluded, we make sure that there's some record of what the

24     substance of their testimony would have been so that there -- those

25     decisions can be reviewed, and we regularly do that.  So it's in -- but

Page 46742

 1     it's possible that we could have simply put it in e-court as opposed to

 2     attached it as part of the record.  I take that point.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  If I could just add one

 5     point, that is the following:  To the extent that Mr. Robinson's

 6     submissions are -- and justification for what the Defence did is grounded

 7     on the premise that this document has some evidential value and is, I

 8     think in his words, favorable to the Defence, I did not want our silence

 9     on that matter to be taken as some form of acquiescence.  I think it

10     should be obvious that we don't consider it as such.  So I felt necessary

11     to simply add that to record.

12             One more matter, Mr. President, before we adjourn, and I'm not

13     suggesting that you're intending to leave this topic necessarily, but I

14     have one matter to raise in private session before we do adjourn in

15     response to something the Court raised yesterday.

16             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber will consider this issue.

17             Yes, Mr. Tieger.  Please continue.

18             MR. TIEGER:  And I need to be in private session, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

20                           [Private session]

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 46743

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6                           [Open session]

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  We are now in open session, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  So we'll continue next week on Tuesday.  Hearing is

 9     adjourned.

10                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.02 p.m.,

11                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 11th day

12                           of February, 2014, at 9.00 a.m.