Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 46972

 1                           Thursday, 13 February 2014

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Page 46973











11  Pages 46973-47046 redacted.  Closed session.















Page 47047

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11                           [Open session]

12             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson, in relation to the statement of the

14     witness who is scheduled to testify after this coming witness, the

15     Chamber received, via e-mail, the Prosecution's objection to certain

16     paragraphs on the 11th of February.

17             In that regard, the Chamber likes to know whether Defence has --

18     is going to respond to this.

19                           [The witness entered court]

20             MR. ROBINSON:  We'll leave it in the hands of the Chamber.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

22             Yes, would the witness make the solemn declaration.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

24     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

25                           WITNESS:  SLOBODAN JURISIC

Page 47048

 1                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Glamocic.  Please be seated and make

 3     yourself comfortable.

 4             Oh, my apologies.  Mr. Jurisic.

 5             Yes, Mr. Jurisic.  Before you commence your evidence, I'd like to

 6     draw your attention to a certain rule that we have here at the

 7     international Tribunal; that is, Rule 90(E).  Under this rule, you may

 8     object to answering any question from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecutor, or

 9     even from the Judges, if you believe that your answer might incriminate

10     you in a criminal offence.  In this context, "incriminate" means saying

11     something that might amount to an admission of guilt for a criminal

12     offence or saying something that might provide evidence that you might

13     have committed a criminal offence.  However, should you think that an

14     answer might incriminate you and as a consequence you refuse to answer

15     the question, I must let you know that the Tribunal has the power to

16     compel you to answer the question.  But, in that situation, the Tribunal

17     would ensure that your testimony compelled under such circumstances would

18     not be used in any case that might be laid against you for any offence,

19     save and except the offence of giving false testimony.

20             Do you understand that, Mr. Jurisic?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

23             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.  Please proceed.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

Page 47049

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Jurisic.

 2        A.   Good afternoon.

 3        Q.   Please make a pause between my questions and your answers, and

 4     please speak slowly so that everything finds its way in the transcript.

 5             Did you give a statement to my Defence team?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   That was a bit too fast.  Please make a longer pause.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown 1D9689.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Do you see on your left-hand side the first page of your

11     statement?

12        A.   Yes, I do.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Have you read and signed the statement?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the last page shown so

17     that the witness may identify his signature.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Is this your signature?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Does the statement faithfully reflect your words to

22     the Defence team?

23        A.   Literally.  The statement fully reflects what I said.

24        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to put the same questions to you today,

25     would your answers essentially be the same?

Page 47050

 1        A.   They would be the same, perhaps not phrased in the same way, but

 2     the substance is there.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tendered the statement under

 5     Rule 92 ter.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  And associated exhibit?

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  We're offering one associated

 8     exhibit which is not on our 65 ter list, as we hadn't interviewed the

 9     witness at the time that it was filed.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have any objections, Ms. Edgerton?

11             MS. EDGERTON:  To the statement, no.  But I don't think there's

12     enough comment with respect to the associated exhibit.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Hmm.  Yeah, it's in the bordering area, but the

14     Chamber is of the view it can be admitted.

15             We'll admit them all.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  The statement 1D9689 will be

17     Exhibit D4363.  And 65 ter 07816 will be Exhibit D4364.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             I will now be reading out the short summary of the statement by

22     Mr. Slobodan Jurisic in English.

23             [In English] Slobodan Jurisic was born on 25th of March, 1946, in

24     Ribnik Kljuc municipality, graduated from the facility of defence and

25     protection in Zagreb in 1986.  After completing his military service, he

Page 47051

 1     worked as a teacher from 1966 to 1978 in Sanica.  From

 2     February the 1st, 1978, until 1894, Mr. Jurisic worked at the

 3     Kljuc Territorial Defence Staff, from where he went to the

 4     Kljuc Municipal Secretariat for National Defence where he stayed until

 5     July 1995.

 6             At the time when the conflict in the former Yugoslavia broke out,

 7     he was the secretary of the Kljuc Secretariat for National Defence.  In

 8     1991, their task was to man the medical detachment of the 5th Corps

 9     logistics base in Kula Mrkonjic Grad, and they also provided a smaller

10     number of reserve officers for the 6th Sana Brigade of JNA.

11             In February 1992, the Kljuc Secretariat for National Defence

12     received the task to form and mobilise a battalion which was incorporated

13     into the 7th Motorised Brigade at Kupres.

14             In March 1992, they provided personnel for the

15     2nd Engineer Regiment which was pulled out from Sinj in Croatia.

16             At the end of February -- of April 1992, they mobilised

17     the Kljuc Territorial Defence detachment which was quartered in the

18     village of Sitnica.

19             On 12th of May, 1992, the detachment became a part of the

20     30th Division of the VRS.

21             On 4th of June, 1992, the 17th Kljuc Light Infantry Brigade was

22     formed.

23             Of the initial incidents in the Kljuc area, the first one was

24     when organised Muslim formations that had already formed a TO,

25     Territorial Defence, staff, command led by Omer Filipovic and others in

Page 47052

 1     Pudin Han, fired at and damaged the relay of radio station at Ramici.

 2     The next incident was when an ambush was laid on the road in Krasulje

 3     village and policeman, Dusan Stojakovic, was killed and Milan Kecman was

 4     injured on that occasion.  After that, units of the Muslim

 5     Territorial Defence ambushed a convoy of army buses on the road in the

 6     Busija sector.  Five or six soldiers were killed and about 20 were

 7     injured.  After this incident the situation in Kljuc municipality took a

 8     turn for the worse.

 9             Following these incidents in the sector of Pudin Han, local

10     commune in Kljuc, a company was brought from the direction of Petrovac to

11     control the Kljuc-Petrovac road.  The company of JNA -- the commander of

12     these Muslim formations surrendered at the invitation of Colonel Galic.

13     The remaining paramilitary formations had to be disarmed and this task

14     was given to the civilian police and the battalion of the VRS.

15             While the arrests and disarming of paramilitary formations, the

16     mopping up of the terrain and the establishing of the -- of a security

17     system were going on, individuals and groups which were not under the

18     control of the army and police took the opportunity to plunder and torch

19     houses and other facilities, and they occasionally committed murders, as

20     was in the case in the Velagici village elementary school.  The civilian

21     police were ordered to hold round the clock guard duty in settlements

22     that had a predominantly Croatian or Muslim population.  In the incidents

23     where -- all the incidents were committed by individuals and groups that

24     were not under the control of the army and the police because it was

25     impossible to physically protect the houses of every single individual.

Page 47053

 1             Immediately after the murders in Velagici, the military and

 2     civilian police identified the perpetrators who were arrested and turned

 3     over to Banja Luka prosecutor's office.  As a member of the Crisis Staff,

 4     Slobodan Jurisic was present at nearly all meetings and he is familiar

 5     with the conclusions of these meetings which were to protect all

 6     inhabitants of Kljuc and their property, regardless of their ethnicity.

 7     Slobodan Jurisic states that as a member of the Crisis Staff and an

 8     inhabitant of Kljuc, he never heard anyone order, plan, or instigate the

 9     expulsion of non-Serbs from the territory of Kljuc.

10             And that is short summary.  At that moment, I do not have

11     questions for Mr. Jurisic.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Jurisic, as you have noted that your evidence

13     in-chief in this case has been admitted in writing.  That is, through

14     your written statement in lieu of your oral testimony.  And now you will

15     be cross-examined by the representative of the Office of the Prosecutor.

16             Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

18                           Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

19        Q.   Mr. Jurisic, I'd like to start off by getting you to confirm a

20     couple of things about your personal background.

21             First of all, it's correct, isn't it, that you were a member of

22     the Kljuc SDS municipality board?

23        A.   Yes, I was.

24        Q.   And you were also a member of the Kljuc SDS Executive Board;

25     right?

Page 47054

 1        A.   I was never a member of the SDS Executive Board.  I was a member

 2     of the Executive Board of the municipal assembly which was an organ of

 3     authority, and I was elected onto that board by the municipal assembly.

 4     As a secretary of the Secretariat of National Defence, as a functionary

 5     of the municipal assembly, I was, ex officio, member of the

 6     Executive Board of the municipal assembly.  I wasn't ever a member of the

 7     party's Executive Board.  I never attended a single of their sessions.

 8        Q.   Right --

 9        A.   I know who the members were.

10        Q.   Mr. Jurisic, Mr. Jurisic, so is the answer to my question no?

11        A.   No is the answer to the question as to whether I was ever a

12     member of the SDS Executive Board.

13        Q.   So your evidence is that you were a member of the Executive Board

14     for the municipality of Kljuc; right?

15        A.   I was.  I was a member of that Executive Board of the

16     Kljuc Municipal Assembly up until the 1st of August, 1992.

17        Q.   All right.

18        A.   Just one more point.  At this time, the Ministry of Defence was

19     reorganised and the Secretariat for National Defence no longer existed at

20     the municipal level.  Rather, there were departments of the

21     Ministry of Defence which were directly subordinate to the Drvar branch

22     of the Ministry of Defence.  We received orders that through the

23     municipal assembly we would be relieved of our duties.

24        Q.   I suspect you probably want to be sitting in that chair for as

25     short a time as possible, and I can help you with that if you let me ask

Page 47055

 1     the questions.  All right?

 2             So you didn't -- let me start again.  So you were a member of the

 3     SDS Municipal Board throughout the war; right?

 4        A.   Yes.  A member of the SDS municipal war -- as for the

 5     Municipal Board of the municipal assembly, that was up until

 6     1st of August, 1992, when we became heads of departments and the

 7     department we worked for was the legal successor of the

 8     Secretariat for National Defence.  We no longer could participate in any

 9     business at the municipal level where we could perform our share of the

10     duties within the Ministry of Defence.

11        Q.   So your evidence is that after the 1st of August, 1992, you

12     didn't attend a single municipal assembly meeting.  Is that your

13     evidence.

14        A.   That is not my evidence.  I was invited to municipal assembly

15     sessions because complex issues were discussed there.  So I attended

16     these sessions but not as a member of the executive board nor as an

17     assemblyman, but as an employee of the Ministry of Defence's department.

18     And I had the duty to respond to questions that the assemblymen may put

19     to me, which had to do with the entire municipality.

20        Q.   And you -- and you were also a member of the War Presidency for

21     the Serbian municipality of Kljuc; right?

22        A.   Correct.

23        Q.   You didn't say any of this in the statement you signed for

24     Dr. Karadzic's Defence; right?

25        A.   In my statement, I was mostly answering the questions put to me

Page 47056

 1     by the lawyer who drafted the statement.

 2        Q.   All right.  Now exercising these functions that you did in these

 3     organs, you attended meetings.  We can agree on that; right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And those meetings were together with people like Jovo Banjac,

 6     Veljko Kondic, Vinko Kondic, Rajko Kalabic, Ljuban Bajic, and

 7     Bosko Lukic, among others right?

 8        A.   Right.

 9        Q.   Okay --

10        A.   Depending on the nature of the meetings, these individuals were

11     present where these topics were discussed.

12        Q.   All right.  Now I want to talk for a little bit about the suspect

13     statement that you yourself mentioned in your written evidence at

14     paragraph 2 and paragraph 19.  That's the statement you gave last year to

15     the state court in Bosnia.

16             Now, you were summoned to give that statement; right?

17        A.   Yes, correct.

18        Q.   And since you actually brought up the subject in your evidence, I

19     want to clarify why you got called in.

20             You're a suspect because of your role as a member of the

21     Crisis Staff in Kljuc; right?

22        A.   That's why I was called in.  I was called in as a member of the

23     Crisis Staff in the municipality of Kljuc.

24        Q.   And it's correct, isn't it, that you're presently under

25     investigation for crimes against humanity against the non-Serb population

Page 47057

 1     in Kljuc; right?

 2        A.   Right.

 3        Q.   And those allegations that you're being investigated for include:

 4     The killings of civilians in Velagici, Pudin Han, and Prhovo, among a

 5     number of other places; right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And you're also under investigation for the imprisonment of at

 8     least 1.300 civilians at Manjaca; right?

 9        A.   I don't know exactly how many there were.  I don't know that.

10     But I know that there were these detentions but I did not participate in

11     that at all.  Everything I found out was from later testimonies and

12     statements and what have you not, because in terms of my own line of work

13     I was not involved in any of these activities and I stated that before

14     the lady prosecutor in Sarajevo.

15        Q.   Well, I'm just asking you to confirm what you're under

16     investigation for.  You're also under the investigation for the forced

17     transfer of 16.500 non-Serbs from Kljuc, aren't you?

18        A.   I don't know exactly what that is.  I know exactly what she asked

19     me, and I have that statement that I gave to that lady prosecutor.

20        Q.   Well, talking about statements, I'd like to ask you about this

21     signed statement you made for Dr. Karadzic.

22             It's correct, isn't it, that you were interviewed before you

23     signed your statement; right?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And then they gave you a draft to have a look at, I suppose;

Page 47058

 1     right?

 2        A.   That's right.  That's right.

 3        Q.   And when you were interviewed by them, did you tell them that you

 4     had previously testified in the state court in Bosnia as well?

 5        A.   When I talked to the lawyer in Banja Luka, the one who was

 6     working on these preparations, this statement that I had from Sarajevo, I

 7     handed that over to that lawyer, all of it.

 8        Q.   My question was:  Did you tell him, whoever interviewed you, that

 9     you had previously testified in front of the state court in Bosnia.

10        A.   Told him, brought him the statement, so that he could see

11     everything that I had said.

12        Q.   Isn't it correct that, in addition to being interviewed as a

13     suspect, you testified two times in the state court in Bosnia as a

14     defence witness in the case against Marko Adamovic?

15        A.   Against Marko Adamovic and Bosko Lukic.

16        Q.   Is that a yes?  Are you confirming that you testified as a

17     defence witness in that case?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Did you tell Dr. Karadzic's associates that you had testified as

20     a defence witness?

21        A.   I stated that when I was in Banja Luka with the lawyer who

22     prepared this statement for me.

23        Q.   Because you didn't tell us that in your written evidence, did

24     you?

25        A.   Well, I believe that I could have given a statement that was a

Page 47059

 1     lot more extensive, but I could not affect the form of the statement.  At

 2     that moment, I did not even remember to say all these things.  I didn't

 3     know what was relevant.  My expectation was that I would answer questions

 4     that would be put to me.

 5        Q.   Whose idea was it to write down in the statement you gave to

 6     Dr. Karadzic's Defence the fact that you're under investigation?  Was

 7     that your idea?

 8        A.   Before I started giving this statement to Lawyer Todic who was

 9     doing that, I said that I had already given a statement to the prosecutor

10     of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  And he asked me whether I had that statement, and

11     I gave that statement to him.  And it says here in the beginning of that

12     statement of mine that I gave that statement on the 27th of May, 2013, in

13     Sarajevo, and I made the entire statement available to him.

14        Q.   Did you think -- did you mention that in the statement you gave

15     to Dr. Karadzic because you thought it would be a good idea that it might

16     help your own case in your own country, if you brought it up here?

17        A.   I reckoned that it was for me to show it to the lawyer.  Now,

18     whether I'm a person who was supposed to give a statement in this case or

19     not, I could not assess that.  As for the facts that are 100 per cent

20     accurate, I presented all of that.

21        Q.   So are you here because you think it might help you in your

22     investigation?

23        A.   I did not think about that at all.  As far as I'm concerned, I

24     could not assess the weight that this would have.  However, what was

25     presented to me was the rules of the Tribunal.  Namely, that if a person

Page 47060

 1     is suspected of having information that is relevant to the Defence, then

 2     that person has the obligation to testify before the Tribunal.  If not,

 3     then such a person would be summoned to testify on pain of punishment.  I

 4     did not have any other information.

 5        Q.   All right.  Now, did you -- you met with Dr. Karadzic's

 6     associates again here in The Hague when you signed this statement; right?

 7        A.   Well, yes.

 8        Q.   And they showed you documents, I suppose?

 9        A.   They showed me three documents.  And I said that I had never seen

10     two documents that they had, and I could not say anything about them.

11     And the third one that was given to me later, I said that I accept what

12     was written there, these difficulties that had to do with the

13     establishment of the 17th Light Infantry Brigade, that I knew about that,

14     and that I can speak about that positively.

15        Q.   And why couldn't you say anything about the other two?  What were

16     they?

17        A.   These were documents that were reports of the brigade to the

18     corps command.  I could never see that, ever.  And I was not aware of

19     these activities that were being carried out.  So this was something that

20     was absolutely unknown to me.

21        Q.   All right.  Now I want to go to something you said, actually, in

22     the suspect statement that you gave last year, and I want to get you to

23     confirm something that you said there.  I have a copy of it too.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  It's 65 ter number 25998.

25        Q.   So we'll pull it up so you can have a look at what you said

Page 47061

 1     there.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  And we can go to English page 7; and, B/C/S, the

 3     top of page 10, I think.  Uh-huh.

 4        Q.   You were asked, Mr. Jurisic, by the prosecutor two thirds of the

 5     way down the page in English:

 6             "Are you saying that everything went on -- that everything that

 7     went on in the period around the TO and the mobilisation and all that

 8     went on in Kljuc since 1992, that was all happening on the instructions

 9     by the institutions at a higher instance than the Kljuc municipality?"

10             And you said, your answer was:

11             "... until 27 May 1992, it was all conducted according to the

12     regulations as we received them from the higher instance of the

13     Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina."

14             That's correct; right?  That's what you said?

15        A.   I stated that.  And that is fully correct.

16        Q.   So --

17        A.   Everything that was done in the Territorial Defence was done as

18     requested by the higher commands.  After all, the Territorial Defence as

19     such existed from the 1970s and this unit as the Territorial Defence

20     detachment had been established before all the operations started and

21     this was based on the command of the Military District and this was based

22     on the rules on mobilisation of the then-Yugoslavia.

23        Q.   Mr. Jurisic, your answer wasn't about the military command.  The

24     prosecutor asked you after that:

25             "Do you agree with me that the instances which existed at that

Page 47062

 1     time were the Assembly of the Serbian People of the Republika Srpska of

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that right?"

 3             And you said:

 4             "Yes."

 5             What you said, Mr. Jurisic, was that the actions taken up until

 6     27 May 1992 effectively were pursuant to instructions from the top

 7     political leaders of the Serbian people; isn't that right?

 8        A.   We received all of this that had to do with mobilisation.  We

 9     received all of that from the command of the Military District of

10     Banja Luka.  Because the republican organs that existed before that, that

11     is to say, the Republican Secretariat and then afterwards the ministry,

12     there was this command of the Military District in Banja Luka and it

13     directly co-ordinated all military matters that had to do with the

14     republic.  This was at the level of Bosnia-Herzegovina as a whole and

15     later on when the Serb republic came to exist.

16        Q.   All right.  Mr. Jurisic, your answer to the prosecutor in 2013

17     doesn't say anything about the higher Military District in Banja Luka.

18     Are you changing your answer now?

19        A.   No, I'm not changing my answer.  It never could have been any

20     different.

21             The command of the Military District existed for as long as the

22     Secretariat for National Defence existed.  Afterwards, when the ministry

23     was established, a Secretariat for National Defence -- no, a ministry

24     was formed in Drvar.  And it took over this role.  And then we were

25     directly linked to the Secretariat of the Ministry of Defence in Drvar

Page 47063

 1     because the command no longer existed and we came to belong to the zone

 2     of the 2nd Krajina Corps.

 3        Q.   Mr. Jurisic, the evidence is that what happened in Kljuc --

 4     actually, the evidence is even the Crisis Staff in Kljuc municipality was

 5     established pursuant to republic level instructions, instructions from

 6     Dr. Karadzic and the top leaders of the Serbian people.  That's what

 7     actually happened --

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Reference, please.  Could the

 9     witness please be given a reference?  Could we be given a reference?

10     Where does it say that.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  P3428, Dr. Karadzic.  And perhaps the witness

12     could be allowed to answer my question.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             Yes, please continue.

15             MS. EDGERTON:

16        Q.   So I'll repeat, Mr. Jurisic.  The evidence is even that the

17     Crisis Staff in Kljuc municipality was established pursuant to

18     republic-level instructions, instructions from Dr. Karadzic.  You were on

19     the Crisis Staff.  That's what happened, wasn't it?  You can confirm

20     that.

21        A.   I can only confirm that I was invited to the session.  I did not

22     even know that a Crisis Staff had been established.  I walked into this

23     room to see the president of the municipal assembly, I saw people there,

24     and I asked what that was all about, and then I heard it was the

25     Crisis Staff.

Page 47064

 1             They told me the following:  On the basis of the office that you

 2     hold, you are a member of the Crisis Staff of the Municipal Assembly of

 3     Kljuc.  And then it was explained to me that these Crisis Staffs, if the

 4     municipal assembly cannot meet, then they have to make certain decisions

 5     and then the assembly would verify them at the first session that can

 6     possibly be held.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  Let's have a look at P3428.

 8        Q.   It's a document that you've actually seen before, Mr. Jurisic.

 9     It's the minutes of the meeting of the Executive Committee of the

10     SDS Municipal Board in Kljuc.

11        A.   I cannot see any minutes.

12                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

13             JUDGE KWON:  There seems to be some technical difficulty.  We

14     better rise for five minutes.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  That's fine.

16                            --- Break taken at 2.07 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 2.14 p.m.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue, Ms. Edgerton.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.  If I can just say to my colleague, the

20     Registrar, though, my personal LiveNote is not working.  I'll just follow

21     along with the courtroom one.

22             If we could now have a look at P3428.  We have it on the screen

23     in front of us.

24        Q.   Mr. Jurisic, this is a copy of minutes of the Executive Committee

25     of the SDS Municipal Board in Kljuc meeting held on 23 December 1991.

Page 47065

 1     And I'll tell you, you were there.  You would know that because you've

 2     seen this document before during the period in which you gave evidence

 3     and were questioned by officials in Bosnia.

 4             The discussion that day was about two things:  The decisions of

 5     the Serbian Assembly and the materials that's arrived; and defence.  And

 6     right here on this page, you see Mr. Kondic telling everybody at the

 7     meeting about the instructions for the organisation and activities of the

 8     Serbian people.  And he told you all that all the organs will be required

 9     to act in accordance with the instructions.  And Brane Vojvodic said:

10             "I can accept all Karadzic's proposals without seeing them."

11             And Mr. Kondic then said:

12             "That means ... all the suggestions and tasks from the

13     instructions are accepted," in their entirety.

14             So Dr. Karadzic's tasks were taken on without a vote.  And the

15     Crisis Staff was established and you were on it.  That's what happened,

16     isn't it?  These contemporaneous notes record that the Crisis Staff was

17     established on the basis of Dr. Karadzic's instructions; isn't that

18     right?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please.  Could the witness first be

20     shown the first page so that he could establish the nature of the meeting

21     and the agenda.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  With respect, Your Honours, I'd say that's not

23     only an improper intervention by Dr. Karadzic, Dr. Karadzic can

24     absolutely read the handwriting in his own language in front of him,

25     which sets out the agenda.

Page 47066

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Can you answer the question, Mr. Witness.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But, Your Excellencies, he doesn't

 3     have the right page in Serbian.  Something is being read out to him but

 4     what is being read out to him is not here in Serbian.  The first page is

 5     here in English, but not in Serbian.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Previous page.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  With respect, Your Honours, this is the first

 8     page.  If Dr. Karadzic goes eight lines down, he'll see the agenda.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Oh.  Why is it different from English version?

10             MS. EDGERTON:  For some reason, whoever did the translation in

11     English has numbered the paragraphs -- the agenda items sequentially one

12     on top of the over and the original minutes have those agenda items one

13     after the other flowing in one paragraph.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Why don't we see the title.  Why don't we see the

15     title at all?

16             MS. EDGERTON:  I'm looking, Your Honour, but I don't read

17     Cyrillic.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect,

19     Brane Vojvodic, you can see him in English towards the bottom of the

20     page.  In the Serbian version he is right on the top immediately after

21     Veljko Kondic.  In the Serbian version, it's towards the top, his name.

22             I know why I'm asking about the agenda.  I don't want to suggest

23     anything in front of the witness.

24             [In English] I can do it in English if witness removes the

25     earphones.

Page 47067

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Can you assist us, Ms. Edgerton?

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  Immediately, I can't, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Hmm.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  And I'm a bit, I have to confess, taken aback

 5     since this matter was previously -- this document was previously tendered

 6     as an exhibit, and Dr. Karadzic didn't apparently raise any objection at

 7     that time.  But ...

 8                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  And your indulgence for a moment.

10             JUDGE KWON:  I think it was admitted by a decision, wasn't it?  I

11     was told that this was the first time to be used in the courtroom.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  I think it was used as well with Mr. Kalabic, with

13     respect, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Jurisic, do you understand English?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Could you kindly take off your headphone for the

17     moment.

18             MS. EDGERTON:  Mr. Reid is helping me by making some immediate

19     inquiries, Your Honour.  And what I'd like to do is actually, if I can

20     get some help from outside of the courtroom, get this resolved before the

21     end of the day, so I can come back to it before the end of the day.  And

22     I can move on to another area, if I may.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

24             MS. EDGERTON:

25        Q.   Could --

Page 47068

 1             THE ACCUSED:  Either way, you decide.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, very well.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:

 4        Q.   Could the witness --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Jurisic, please.  Thank you.

 6             Shall we continue then.

 7                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  All right.

 9        Q.   We're going to leave this for a moment, Mr. Jurisic, and I'd like

10     to go on to another area.

11             I'd like to go to your evidence as a Defence witness in the

12     Adamovic and Lukic proceedings, the evidence that you gave before you

13     became a suspect.  And I'd like to get you to confirm some of the things

14     you said there.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  If we could please have a look at 65 ter 26008.  I

16     think it might be easier for the witness to actually see the transcript

17     of what he said, rather than to have me read it to him.  And I'd like to

18     go to English page 23 and B/C/S page 56.  All right.

19        Q.   There, in the courtroom, you were asked by the prosecutor the

20     following --

21             MS. EDGERTON:  Your indulgence for a moment.

22        Q.   You were asked:

23             "Did the Crisis Staff make decisions regarding mobilisation?"

24             And you said:

25             "Yes."

Page 47069

 1             Correct?

 2        A.   I don't know which mobilisation this pertains to.

 3        Q.   I'm asking you to confirm the evidence.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  And I'm not sure that we have the right B/C/S

 5     page.

 6             Your indulgence, Your Honours, and apologies.

 7        Q.   You were asked about mobilisation during the period of time you

 8     were a member of the Crisis Staff, Mr. Jurisic.  Your answer to the

 9     prosecutor's question was, "Yes."

10             Can you confirm that?

11        A.   Well, that is not necessarily so, if it was during the time of

12     the Crisis Staff that the Crisis Staff commanded the call-up.  The

13     mobilisation only came from superior commands and the command of the

14     Military District or the Ministry of Defence at Drvar.

15        Q.   So you're changing the answer that you gave under oath as a

16     defence witness --

17        A.   I'm not -- I'm not changing the answer, but it seems that the

18     sense is somewhat different.

19        Q.   No.  The sense is very clear.  You were asked:

20             "Did the Crisis Staff make decisions regarding mobilisation?"

21             Your answer was:

22             "Yes."

23             You were then asked:

24             "Mobilisation of the Territorial Defence; correct?"

25             Your answer was:

Page 47070

 1             "Yes."

 2             Are you prepared to confirm that here today, Mr. Jurisic?

 3        A.   Mobilisation of the Territorial Defence, that was done by the

 4     command of the Military District through an order that was very precise.

 5     And it was implemented by the secretariats of All People's Defence.

 6        Q.   Well, Mr. Jurisic, can you explain why when you were asked this

 7     question by the prosecutor in the state court in Bosnia-Herzegovina you

 8     said exactly the opposite to what you're saying now?

 9        A.   I cannot exactly remember how these things were.  I know the

10     essentials of how things went but nothing more than that.

11        Q.   You were asked during your testimony in the state court in

12     Bosnia:

13             "Did the Crisis Staff make decisions on the deployment of the

14     public security station personnel ..."

15             And you answered:

16             "Yes, it did.  I know that at the Crisis Staff meetings there was

17     often talk of deploying the police ..."

18             Can you confirm that this was your evidence in front of the

19     state court in Bosnia?

20        A.   I don't know what deployment is meant exactly.  Positions in the

21     chain of command or something else?

22             THE ACCUSED:  Could this page be displayed so witness ...

23             MS. EDGERTON:  The next page in B/C/S.  The bottom of this page

24     reflects the questions and answer regarding Territorial Defence.  If we

25     can go on to the page after that, we'll see the questions and answers

Page 47071

 1     regarding the police.

 2             My apologies.

 3        Q.   We'll do it again because you seem to be unclear about the

 4     answers you previously gave.

 5             Now you see them recorded in your language in front of you,

 6     Mr. Jurisic.  Can you confirm your previous evidence that the

 7     Crisis Staff made the decision -- made decisions on the deployment of the

 8     public security stations?

 9        A.   At some points in time, if such was the assessment that it was

10     necessary for the police to act, then such decisions were taken by the

11     Crisis Staff and it would order the SJB to carry out the order with

12     whatever personnel they had.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Now, you were also asked whether the Crisis Staff

14     decided that certain people of certain ethnicity in the area of the Kljuc

15     municipality would lose their jobs.

16             MS. EDGERTON:  And if we can go over to the next page in English.

17        Q.   And your answer was, "Yes."  Can you confirm that?

18        A.   I had heard that some orders or recommendations, or whatever they

19     were called, were coming from the Crisis Staff of the ARK, the

20     Autonomous Republic of Krajina, and it was required there that persons in

21     executive positions who are not loyal should be removed from their

22     positions.  Who exactly that was, I don't know.  But I did hear such

23     stories, but there were also different opinions.  Some people thought

24     that those were bad decisions.

25        Q.   And one final question, and I'd like you to confirm this.

Page 47072

 1     You're -- you were asked -- and I think you can probably do this without

 2     the transcript, but I can show it to you if you want.  You would agree

 3     that the only organ of government that functioned at the time and made

 4     decisions was the Crisis Staff; correct?  It was the highest organ of

 5     government in the municipality during war time and the immediate threat

 6     of war; is that fair?

 7        A.   That is correct.  It was a mini-assembly, which functioned at

 8     times when it was not possible to call a proper assembly, and any

 9     decisions taken by it could be verified at the next regular assembly that

10     was called.

11        Q.   Thank you.  And now before the end of the day, I'd like to go

12     back to the questions I was asking you about the establishment of the

13     Crisis Staff in Kljuc municipality.

14             And I'll do that by referring to another document.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  P2592, please.

16        Q.   All right.  Now, Mr. Jurisic, I think we can see much more

17     clearly the proper, the original, version of the minutes that I tried to

18     show you earlier on.  And I'm actually grateful to Dr. Karadzic for

19     raising this, and my apologies.

20             You see in front of you now the minutes of the 6th meeting of the

21     Executive Committee of the SDS Municipal Board in Kljuc.  And you see

22     what I've put to you earlier, that the discussion that day was about two

23     things:  Defence; and the decisions of the Serbian Assembly and the

24     materiel that had arrived.  Mr. Kondic is telling everybody about the

25     instructions that he received on the organisation and activities of the

Page 47073

 1     Serbian people, and he told everybody present - and you were there - that

 2     the organs were going to be required to act in accordance with the

 3     instructions.  And Dr. Karadzic's proposals were accepted without a vote.

 4     And if you want, we can go over to the next page just to see the end of

 5     that first item of discussion.  But it's all pretty much contained on the

 6     first page in your language.

 7             Brane Vojvodic said:  I can accept Dr. Karadzic's instructions

 8     without seeing them.

 9             And Mr. Kondic said that everything, all the suggestions and

10     tasks, were accepted in their entirety.

11             So these are contemporaneous notes of the establishment of the

12     Crisis Staff of Kljuc municipality based on Dr. Karadzic's instructions.

13     And you can confirm that, can't you, because you were there at the time?

14        A.   I do not remember that throughout the existence of the

15     Executive Board of the party that I ever attended that meeting.  I've

16     never seen the composition of the Executive Board.  I was not a member,

17     nor do I know that I was ever invited to a meeting of the Executive Board

18     of the party.  That's why I cannot remember.  This is grossly unfamiliar.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  Your indulgence for just a moment, Your Honours.

20        Q.   Can we go over - in this document that you now say you don't

21     remember, Mr. Jurisic - to the third page in your language.

22             Mr. Jurisic, there you are, on the third page, briefing people on

23     mobilisation.  You reported to people present.  You said:

24             "We fill the brigade from Mrkonjic Grad and Sipovo, and all

25     mobilisation goes through the Drvar recruiting office," consistent with

Page 47074

 1     what you have been telling us, "We have to mobilise 402 conscripts.  181

 2     responded.  Three Muslims.  Serbs responded to the tune of 85 per cent,

 3     which is good."

 4             And then just further down on that same page, you said:

 5             "The municipal staff will propose that the Territorial Defence

 6     forms two companies in local communes [sic] (Kljuc and Sanica) and eight

 7     platoons."

 8             And then you made a series of recommendations for commanders of

 9     those companies and platoons?

10             Now --

11             JUDGE KWON:  We have -- do we have the correct B/C/S page?

12             MS. EDGERTON:  Ah, no.  We have to go over one more page,

13     Your Honour.

14        Q.   I think that covers the tail of the discussion and the lists of

15     commanders that you, Mr. Jurisic, were proposing.  Now, Mr. Jurisic, you

16     gave evidence to Dr. Karadzic's Defence team saying that you were present

17     at nearly all Crisis Staff meetings and you were familiar with the

18     conclusions of these meetings, and you're telling us that you don't

19     remember this most significant meeting reflecting the establishment of

20     the Crisis Staff in Kljuc?

21        A.   The Crisis Staff is one thing and the Executive Board of the SDS

22     is another.

23        Q.   Do you remember being at this meeting or not?

24        A.   I probably was there.  My name appears here.

25        Q.   Right.  So then you can agree with me that this document

Page 47075

 1     reflects -- these minutes reflect that the Crisis Staff in Kljuc

 2     municipality was established pursuant to Dr. Karadzic's instructions;

 3     right?

 4        A.   Well, I don't know pursuant to what else it could have been

 5     established.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  I can move on into another area that we'll deal with

 7     just briefly.

 8             In your written evidence, you talked about these initial events

 9     in Kljuc, and that's at paragraphs 11 to 14.  Now, you would agree with

10     me that those initial events took place on the 27 -- 25th and

11     27th of May, 1992; right?

12        A.   Right.

13        Q.   So you're saying, as I understand your evidence from reading your

14     statement, that everything that happened in Kljuc after those days at the

15     end of May was purely -- was purely a Serb reaction to that sort of brief

16     rebellion on the 25th and 27th?

17        A.   Well, that was a reaction to gave rise to a lot of fear and made

18     people very careful.  And then there were stand-by measures, and so on.

19     Everybody was afraid of some sort of surprise and that somebody should do

20     something bad to someone else.

21        Q.   All right.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours, by the clock on my computer, we have

23     about two more minutes for today.  It doesn't seem wise to go much

24     further and cut halfway through a question, if I may.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Fair enough.

Page 47076

 1             We'll adjourn for today, Mr. Jurisic.  I'd like to advise you not

 2     to discuss with anybody else while you are giving testimony here.

 3             We'll continue tomorrow morning at 9.00.

 4                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.44 p.m.,

 5                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 14th day of

 6                           February, 2014, at 9.00 a.m.