Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 11673

1 Monday, 10th January, 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.

6 Case number IT-95-14/2-T, the Prosecutor versus Dario

7 Kordic and Mario Cerkez.

8 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, it is with deep regret

9 that I have formally to announce that Judge Robinson's

10 wife has died recently. I'm sure we would all wish to

11 express our condolences to the Judge. In the

12 circumstances, he will be away for the next fortnight

13 and will not return until the 24th of January.

14 MR. NICE: Of course, all those present will

15 extend our sympathy and condolences to the Judge both

16 through Your Honour and maybe privately. I think I can

17 probably speak for all of us in recording the silent

18 admiration we had for what we must all have appreciated

19 was the suffering he was engaged in but silently and

20 without in any way being distracted from the work that

21 he put in on this case.

22 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, we will ensure that

23 what you've said is conveyed to the Judge.

24 I turn next to the proposed programme for the

25 next two weeks. The new Rule 15 bis provides that if a

Page 11674

1 Judge, for illness or other urgent personal reasons, is

2 unable to continue sitting in a part-heard case for a

3 period which is likely to be of short duration and the

4 remaining Judges of the Chamber are satisfied that it

5 is in the interests of justice to do so, those

6 remaining Judges may order the hearing of the case

7 continue in the absence of the Judge for a period of

8 not more than three days.

9 We have considered that Rule and are of the

10 view that it's in the interests of justice to continue

11 this hearing this week for three days, but we'll hear

12 any submissions that anybody wants to make about that.

13 Thursday and Friday of this week are in any event set

14 aside for hearings on ex parte matters and we will have

15 to consider in due course whether it's right to

16 continue those hearings, although at the moment we

17 would be minded if possible to do so. Next week this

18 case is listed for four days of hearings and we will

19 consider whether it's possible and hear any submissions

20 as to whether it's possible to continue for those

21 days.

22 Does anybody want to make any submissions

23 about those proposals?

24 MR. NICE: Not on that point, no.

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Stein.

Page 11675

1 MR. STEIN: Thank you, Your Honours. It's a

2 shame that we have to start the new millennium on

3 this somber note, and please, please give our

4 condolences to Judge Robinson in the appropriate way.

5 JUDGE MAY: I will see that that is done.

6 MR. STEIN: Thank you. Our position,

7 frankly, is as to the next week, that it would be a

8 hardship, it may be a hardship to proceed only because

9 it means even more of an imposition on Judge Robinson

10 to read the record, to see the record. For those

11 reasons we've pondered it, and while everyone, of

12 course, is anxious to proceed, we think it in the best

13 interest perhaps not to.

14 JUDGE MAY: As far as this week is concerned,

15 you have no objection.

16 MR. STEIN: Absolutely none. Absolutely

17 none. Three days.

18 JUDGE MAY: But you've taken the view that

19 three days the following week would impose, you say, a

20 hardship upon the Judge.

21 MR. STEIN: I don't want to speak and I

22 shouldn't speak for him, but three days plus another

23 three or four days, and there are some other days that

24 he was absent, there comes a point, and Your Honour can

25 best judge, when it's burdensome.

Page 11676

1 JUDGE MAY: If we took an opposite view,

2 would you have any other observations to make?

3 MR. STEIN: No, sir.

4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice.

5 MR. NICE: Well, if in principle we're going

6 to work next week, I have no observations to make. If

7 we're not going to be sitting next week, I have

8 witnesses to cancel.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, we'll obviously have

10 to consider that and consider it in the next day or two

11 in light of the submissions made, and we will do so.

12 MR. NICE: Can I tell you what the position

13 is about witnesses because I know that informally last

14 week there was some concern that there may have been

15 inadequate witnesses to fill the three days that we

16 have for evidence this week.

17 Today there's a witness called Breljas who

18 will take some time but along with all other witnesses

19 will, I hope, be taken as quickly as possible. Then

20 there's two other witnesses called Van der Pluijm

21 and de Boer, neither of whom I hope will be

22 particularly long. There were listed for this week two

23 witnesses for whom subpoenas had been issued, and the

24 Chamber will recall, as it were, a rolling programme of

25 subpoena witnesses, two this week, two next week, and I

Page 11677

1 think one the week after, were the return dates for

2 those witnesses. The two for this week have not

3 responded, and there's a report before the Chamber

4 explaining why they have not responded. So this week

5 would be the time when the Chamber can take further

6 steps to secure their attendance if the Chamber judges

7 it right to do so.

8 I would rather not deal with that matter now

9 and would rather get on with the evidence of Breljas

10 for two reasons: first, so that we can consider the

11 matter a little more following the effective start of

12 the whole team being together again this week; second,

13 to ensure that any institutional opinion of the OTP

14 generally on inviting the Chamber to use its full

15 powers to bring witnesses to court can be reflected in

16 the submissions I make. Of course, I act independently

17 in this trial but I'm obliged from time to time to

18 check that there isn't an institutional view that it

19 would be desired I lay before you. Perhaps we can deal

20 with that either tomorrow or Wednesday.

21 There is the potential for additional

22 witnesses this week, three in particular, I think.

23 First, there is the aerial video of the Lasva Valley

24 taken a couple of years after incidents but when the

25 damage was still more apparent on the ground than it is

Page 11678

1 today, and there's a witness called J.P. Capelle, who

2 although he wasn't actually on the flight, I think

3 commissioned the flight and knows the area extremely

4 well, who would be able to sit here while the video is

5 being played, the videotape is about 40 minutes, and

6 give evidence of identification of particular villages

7 save wherever that's necessary, and it's only necessary

8 to a limited extent because the video actually has the

9 names of the villages appearing in print at the bottom

10 of the screen as the helicopter moves from one village

11 to the next. So that's one passage of evidence that we

12 could deal with but, of course, in a way it's a bit of

13 evidence that one would probably want Judge Robinson to

14 see at the same time as Your Honours were seeing it.

15 JUDGE MAY: I think that must be right and I

16 think that would be more appropriately dealt with when

17 the Judge is back.

18 MR. NICE: Very well. There are two other

19 live witnesses whose summaries were prepared last week

20 and served last week who may be available. One is

21 (redacted). I say he may be available. I haven't been

22 able to check on his availability. He was a listed

23 witness.

24 There is another witness called Beese, who

25 was not a listed witness and accordingly for whom there

Page 11679

1 is inevitably objection by the Defence, but who is

2 available and could be here on Wednesday.

3 Christopher Beese was the deputy to a witness

4 who gave evidence in closed session, but it was that

5 witness who first pointed us, both informally and

6 indeed in Court, to the extreme help that this witness

7 Beese might be able to give to the Chamber.

8 The Chamber will know that in relation to

9 that confidential witness, we had no direct access to

10 him and weren't even able to speak to him informally

11 until the moment that he came to Court. So we couldn't

12 get his guidance on where information might be most

13 usefully found. And he told us then about how we

14 should approach Beese. We did that. And indeed he is

15 a very valuable witness, potentially a very valuable

16 witness, not a particularly lengthy one, for two

17 reasons: One, he is the first-hand observer of an

18 encounter by telephone between Kordic and Petkovic,

19 which simply shows where the power lay. And since

20 there's been objection to this material whenever it

21 comes secondhand, it would be hard to see what

22 objection there can be to producing the evidence when

23 it comes first-hand.

24 Second, from his very considerable contacts

25 on the ground, he has conclusions, well founded it may

Page 11680

1 be thought, about the conduct and purpose of the war.

2 The Chamber may note when looking at the summary,

3 because I am going to ask that the Chamber should have

4 the summary presented to it, and we can discuss the

5 possibility of his being called, perhaps later today or

6 tomorrow. The Chamber may find that his opinions don't

7 necessarily match exactly all the other opinions that

8 have been ventured. But that, of course, is not a bad

9 thing. On the contrary, it's a good thing, because

10 what we seek to do for the Prosecution is not to argue

11 some narrowly constructed case and to be selective in

12 the material we lay before you, but to lay before you

13 the best evidence from all those who necessarily had

14 different perspectives on the conflict, having

15 confidence that the Chamber will be able to decide from

16 those opinions and general expressions of factual

17 finding where the truth lies.

18 So Beese would be available. I need to tee

19 him up probably really this afternoon. So that we will

20 serve on you, if it hasn't been done already, the

21 summary of his evidence, which was served on the

22 Defence last week. Perhaps we can discuss the

23 possibility of calling him this afternoon when we see

24 how Breljas is doing and how long he is going to take.

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

Page 11681

1 MR. NICE: Before Breljas is called, I should

2 say this about the tape recording that was served on

3 the Defence at the end of last year, with an invitation

4 that they might admit that the voices on it were Kordic

5 and Blaskic. No response has been made to that

6 invitation so far.

7 Breljas is a man who would probably be able

8 to identify one or other of the voices, Blaskic and

9 Kordic. For reasons to do with this institution, the

10 evidence unit in which all these important things are

11 stored hasn't been available to us last week. And I

12 haven't been able to get the tape and have it played to

13 Breljas before he starts giving evidence this morning.

14 There may come a time today, I hope, when the

15 tape will be available to me again, and I would ask the

16 opportunity that it be played to him so that we know

17 whether he will be able to help with voice

18 identification.

19 JUDGE MAY: Is there a dispute about the tape

20 or not?

21 MR. STEIN: The tape creates problems, Your

22 Honour, and the problems are these: First, it's an

23 incomplete tape. There obviously had been some sort of

24 interception, some sort of wire-tap interception. And

25 this is only part of it. It's our position we are

Page 11682

1 entitled to see all of the tape or tapes of wire-tapped

2 intercepts, first issue.

3 The second issue is it creates a legal issue

4 of the admissibility of evidence which, if I am

5 correct, was subject to a wire-tap, legally or

6 illegally, with or without a warrant. And if I read

7 the tea leaves correctly, it's without a warrant.

8 Under Bosnian law at the time, it would be illegal and

9 should not be played anywhere.

10 JUDGE MAY: That aside, of course, that will

11 be a matter of argument as to admissibility. The

12 narrow issue is whether there is any dispute about the

13 voices on the tape.

14 MR. STEIN: There is a dispute about the

15 voices.

16 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Thank you.

17 MR. NICE: In those circumstances, if I may

18 have an opportunity at some stage, assuming the tape

19 becomes available to me again today, to have it played

20 to Mr. Breljas, to see if he is able to help with the

21 identification, I would be grateful. We might indeed

22 put that in at the same time as we are dealing with the

23 arguments about calling Mr. Beese, the additional

24 witness, sometime this afternoon.

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll hear the arguments.

Page 11683

1 MR. STEIN: And the dispute is that the tape

2 is not complete. The tape we believe to be chopped.

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes. I take that. But the issue

4 here is whoever the voices on the tape are. That's the

5 matter which is in dispute, I understand.

6 MR. STEIN: Actually, no. If you listen to

7 the tape and then compare the tape with Mr. Kordic's

8 voice on other tapes that you've seen, I think you can

9 make your own judgement. I don't think this witness is

10 needed to do that. Our issue is the accuracy of the

11 tape itself.

12 While I am on my feet --

13 JUDGE MAY: But, Mr. Stein, may I follow

14 this, because it's important as far as today's hearing

15 is concerned. Are you saying that it's accepted that

16 the voice is Mr. Kordic?

17 MR. STEIN: Yes.

18 JUDGE MAY: It is?

19 MR. STEIN: It is.

20 JUDGE MAY: So there is no need for the

21 Prosecution to call evidence on that narrow issue?

22 MR. STEIN: Correct.

23 JUDGE MAY: Whether, of course, it's

24 admissible and what's in it, those are totally

25 different issues which we will have to resolve.

Page 11684

1 MR. STEIN: Yes.

2 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Yes.

3 MR. STEIN: As to, in reverse order,

4 Mr. Beese, again not a listed witness, not only not

5 listed but given to us kind of by surprise in our

6 packet of material over the recess. We were told there

7 would be three witnesses this week, and we certainly

8 are not prepared to deal with him this afternoon --

9 JUDGE MAY: When did you get his statement?

10 MR. STEIN: It was in my possession when I

11 came back to The Hague on Thursday, so presumably

12 before. I mean, I'll accept whatever date Ms. Verhaag

13 tells us she sent it over.

14 JUDGE MAY: As far as you are concerned, you

15 didn't receive it until Thursday?

16 MR. STEIN: That's right, sir.

17 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

18 MR. STEIN: Last, while I'm on my feet, the

19 Prosecutor apparently has made a report on subpoenas.

20 I don't know if it's appropriate for us to see that

21 report, but we haven't, for whatever his institutional

22 reasons are. That's not been given to us.

23 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Well, I'm not sure

24 you are entitled to it.

25 MR. NICE: I agree.

Page 11685

1 As to Mr. Beese, there was no statement from

2 him because we weren't on his trail until pointed to

3 him by the witness I've identified. He was seen by me

4 in London last week and, as soon as a summary was

5 prepared, I think it was Thursday, it was faxed to The

6 Hague and then delivered to the boxes of the Defence

7 counsel the same day. But, in any event, when the

8 Chamber has a look at the summary, it will be in a

9 position to decide the degree to which the factual

10 matters referred to are new and would take them by

11 surprise this week.

12 Three other points. On the tape, I

13 understand what Mr. Stein says to be an acknowledgment

14 that the voice of Kordic is Kordic where said on the

15 transcript, and Blaskic where Blaskic is identified on

16 the transcript. That being the case, then I needn't,

17 of course, have the tape played to Mr. Breljas, because

18 it's unnecessary.

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

20 MR. NICE: On Thursday, as the Chamber knows,

21 there is a binding order application. There's been

22 quite a lot of correspondence --

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes. The short point, a short

24 point on Mr. Beese, so that you can take account of it,

25 is this: As Judge Bennouna points out, more time may

Page 11686

1 be needed before the Defence are in a position to deal

2 with this witness.

3 MR. NICE: I quite accept that, yes.

4 JUDGE MAY: And it may be that the notion of

5 calling him this week is not appropriate in any event.

6 Perhaps you would like to think about it.

7 MR. NICE: I certainly understand that.

8 Dealing with it step by step. If the Chamber has a

9 look at the summary, and if the Defence raised discrete

10 arguments about matters that are new in this witness

11 that haven't been touched on by other witnesses, then

12 indeed they may have an unarguable case for him not to

13 be dealt with this week. But I was responding in

14 making him available as a potential witness to the

15 concerns that have been informally expressed by the

16 Chamber.

17 Two other points then. Binding order

18 material on Thursday, application on Thursday. There's

19 been a considerable amount of correspondence since last

20 year about that hearing and about, frankly, who should

21 be here. I don't think I'll go into that now, because

22 we want to get on with the evidence. But the issues

23 are there still to be dealt with and they are not

24 issues that are going to go away.

25 I can, however, console the Chamber with

Page 11687

1 this: The binding order application material is very

2 voluminous. I hold my hand up. I think it's about

3 that thick at the moment in the way it comes, although

4 some of it is duplicative. I am having prepared a

5 chronology which so far is only about four sides in

6 tabulated form, which I hope will guide you through the

7 history of the binding order; complex, as it is,

8 covering two cases as it does. And I think that that

9 will, if not save you having to read all of the

10 material, guide you through it in a way that will be --

11 will make it economic, your disposal of time on that

12 issue. That will help.

13 We are waiting for a skeleton argument on the

14 inadmissibility of the witness Cigar that has yet to

15 arrive. There was concern by the Chamber, I think

16 possibly informally expressed, about core documents.

17 Can I inform the Court that we are

18 substantially through the exercise of identifying all

19 the remaining exhibits we would want in, including the

20 core exhibits, as, if you will, the library of

21 documents to which parties might refer in closing

22 argument; they not necessarily being documents each and

23 every one of which would have to be turned through

24 laboriously, but they would need to be available. A

25 large number of those, a large proportion of those

Page 11688

1 indeed has already been served on the Defence for them

2 to agree in principle that they are documents to be

3 admitted. The rest, I think, will be turned over to

4 the Defence by the end of this month. I am looking to

5 Mr. Lopez-Terres because I think he has been engaged in

6 this. I think by the end of this month, before the end

7 of this month.

8 It is hoped, one way or another, that the

9 vast majority of documents that we seek to lay before

10 the Chamber, for the purposes of the library to be

11 available, will be dealt with by consent, and that only

12 a limited number of documents will have to be the

13 subject of full argument as to provenance.

14 JUDGE MAY: There must be a distinction

15 between the library of documents, which I take to mean

16 all the exhibits which are already voluminous and in

17 numerous files. That is inconvenient from the point of

18 view of reference in Court to have this large number.

19 So I would encourage anybody to produce a core bundle

20 which we can use during argument and that sort of

21 thing. It will, of course, contain documents from both

22 sides. It's not intended that it should merely be one

23 side.

24 At the end of the Prosecution it may be

25 necessary to carry out a full exercise to make sure

Page 11689

1 that all the exhibits are exhibited, that we have the

2 right numbers for them, and that we can proceed in an

3 orderly fashion.

4 MR. NICE: Certainly. I think that the

5 logging of exhibits already produced has been

6 comprehensive and accurate. And if we add to that, by

7 those documents served and to be served on the Defence,

8 then there is no reason to think that we shouldn't be

9 in a position to document the library accurately. The

10 notion of a core bundle for use in argument is not one

11 I had formally understood. I thought that reference to

12 core documents had been to the core documents served

13 with the opening. It seems Your Honour's idea is, if I

14 may say so, a very good one and one to which we will be

15 responsive.

16 MR. STEIN: One nagging point relative to

17 Mr. Van der Pluijm. Apparently there are annexes to

18 his statements and we would like to have those before

19 he appears.

20 JUDGE MAY: Can we call the witness, please.

21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the

23 declaration. Yes.

24 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

25 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

Page 11690

1 truth.

2 JUDGE MAY: Would you like to take a seat.

3 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

4 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] I should

5 like to draw the Chamber's attention to the fact that

6 the Defence has given us a list of the paragraphs with

7 regard to which they wish us to ask questions in a

8 traditional manner rather than in a leading manner.

9 JUDGE MAY: Very well.


11 [Witness answered through interpreter]

12 Examined by Mr. Lopez-Terres:

13 Q. You are, indeed, Mr. Anto Breljas, born on

14 the 19th of January, 1940 in Sarajevo.

15 A. On the 18th of April.

16 Q. Mr. Breljas, you are a Croat from Bosnia.

17 A. Yes, I am.

18 Q. Mr. Breljas, were you sentenced for any

19 criminal offences in the past?

20 A. No, never seriously, but once in 1971 when I

21 joined the Croatian string in Zagreb, I had to flee to

22 Canada. When I reached Canada, I was provoked by a

23 priest who was plundering the Croatian people in the

24 name of Croathood, but he was really a thug. I had a

25 fight with him. Then in court he lied that I wanted to

Page 11691

1 physically assault him, but the court then sentenced me

2 to three months.

3 Q. Were you sentenced to prison, to a prison

4 term at the time?

5 A. Yes, I was, for three months.

6 Q. For physical assault.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Very well. Mr. Breljas, you belonged to the

9 special purpose unit known as the Vitezovi,

10 the Knights, I think, in your language.

11 A. Yes, from 1993, from the 3rd or 4th of March

12 until the end of the war.

13 Q. Until April 1994?

14 A. Yes. About the 15th of April I left the

15 Vitezovi.

16 Q. Mr. Breljas, at the end of March, 1993, you

17 met the accused Dario Kordic in Tisovac, outside

18 Busovaca, and you asked him whether he could give you

19 an assignment within the HVO forces; is that correct?

20 A. Not an assignment. I just reported to him; I

21 told him I had arrived and that I wanted to join.

22 Q. And Mr. Kordic told you to go and see the

23 head of the Vitezovi, Darko Kraljevic, explaining to

24 you that this one would give you a job within the HVO.

25 A. Yes, that is correct.

Page 11692

1 Q. Could you tell the Chamber in what capacity

2 you joined the Vitezovi. What were your functions?

3 A. At first, for four or five days, there wasn't

4 anything really, I just observed things, and afterwards

5 I was a political officer in the information and

6 propaganda unit.

7 Q. An information and propaganda officer within

8 the unit; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. What rank were you given when you joined the

11 Vitezovi?

12 A. The rank of lieutenant. Not immediately, but

13 about ten days later.

14 Q. Could you briefly describe your duties as an

15 information and propaganda officer, in a few words,

16 please.

17 A. According to the rules of international

18 organisations and international conventions, the IPD

19 officer had to make sure and monitor things that were

20 done properly and incorrectly. If possible, he should

21 prevent any errors and praise anything that was done

22 well.

23 Q. You were also in charge of the social

24 problems of the soldiers in the unit, were you not?

25 A. Yes. I was also -- Jozo Buha was the

Page 11693

1 logistics man. He stole a lot and I prevented that and

2 threw him out. Kraljevic followed my advice, and then

3 I had to take over the logistics for the Vitezovi as I

4 had no other person to assign to that post.

5 Q. Were you also in charge of taking care of the

6 families of killed soldiers?

7 A. Yes. As far as I was able, I would

8 distribute food to them. When I received packages, I

9 would distribute those packages to the wounded and the

10 families of the killed, and on two occasions, I also

11 received some funds which I distributed to both

12 groups.

13 Q. You were also responsible for the treatment

14 of prisoners.

15 A. Yes, I was responsible for the prisoners; I

16 had to take care of them.

17 Q. In the course of your duties, you also acted

18 as a liaison officer with international organisations,

19 and as you spoke English, you were known as UNPROFORac,

20 that is, the liaison man with the UNPROFOR.

21 A. Yes. On a number of occasions, I was asked

22 to interpret because there weren't many people speaking

23 both English and our language.

24 Q. Could you tell us, Mr. Breljas, what was, in

25 your opinion, the total strength of the Vitezovi

Page 11694

1 throughout the conflict?

2 A. The number changed. There were many

3 casualties and wounded people who were put out of

4 action, and then reinforcements were brought in, and

5 these were assigned by my commander, Marinko Plavcic,

6 so that the number changed. At a maximum, there was

7 180 and at a minimum, 90.

8 Q. And these 180 soldiers were stationed at the

9 Dubravica school, the barracks that were situated in

10 the Dubravica school.

11 A. Not all of them. Some were from Krizancevo

12 Selo, and they stayed at home but they came to the

13 barracks. And others who came from other places, like

14 refugees from Travnik and others, they were regularly

15 quartered in the barracks.

16 Q. You told us that the commander of the unit

17 was Darko Kraljevic. Who was his deputy?

18 A. The deputy was Dragan Vinac.

19 Q. Could you briefly tell us how many groups

20 there were forming this unit and the names of those

21 groups?

22 A. I beg your pardon? I didn't quite understand

23 the question. What do you mean "groups and the names

24 of those groups"? Are you thinking of the fighters,

25 combat groups?

Page 11695

1 Q. Yes, combat groups that had names.

2 A. There were three main groups: the Pumas, the

3 Wolves, and the Foxes. These names sometimes changed,

4 but basically there were three combat groups.

5 Q. You noted in the course of your work that

6 soldiers of the unit wore two types of uniforms; one

7 was a black uniform and another a camouflage uniform;

8 is that correct?

9 A. Not all of them. Some wore black uniforms,

10 they were uniforms they had to make themselves, and the

11 camouflage uniforms were those that were distributed.

12 So that not only my unit but others, like Mr. Blaskic,

13 Mr. Mario Cerkez, they also wore black uniforms, and

14 the Vitez Brigade members also, some of them wore black

15 uniforms, and there were also the camouflage uniforms.

16 Q. Is this correct, that the people that were

17 considered to be the most extremist in the Vitezovi had

18 attached on their black uniforms the letter "U" which

19 was the sign of the Ustashas from the Second World

20 War?

21 A. Yes. They either had the letter "U" on the

22 cap or on the side, some of them even or their belts,

23 with the letter "U" on the buckle of their belts.

24 Q. There were also official patches with the

25 words "Vitezovi" and another patch with the letters

Page 11696

1 "HOS" on them, with a flash.

2 A. Yes, that is correct. Those who were in the

3 HOS, and they were founded in 1990, they all had these

4 HOS patches. However, those of them who joined later,

5 the end of 1992, in December 1992, they didn't wear

6 those patches. They had the "PP Vitezovi" with the

7 flash symbol on their sleeves.

8 Q. I should like to show you two documents,

9 pictures of those patches, and will you please confirm

10 whether they correspond to the patches worn by some

11 members of the unit or all members of the unit. They

12 are Exhibit Z1530 and Z2790; these are two

13 photographs.

14 Mr. Breljas, was this the official patch of

15 the special purpose unit, the Vitezovi, that you spoke

16 about?

17 A. No. The lightning sign is missing, the

18 flash.

19 Q. Was there another patch with the "HOS" on it?

20 A. Yes, but the coat of arms had a white

21 background with red squares and not vice versa.

22 Q. The background was reversed?

23 A. Yes.

24 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] Could you

25 show the witness, please, the second document.

Page 11697

1 Q. Does this symbol correspond to the letter "U"

2 for Ustasha that we referred to a moment ago?

3 A. Yes. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you. Mr. Breljas, we're now going to

5 speak about the night between the 15th and 16th of

6 April, 1993. Could you tell us what you saw in the

7 course of that night while you were at the Dubravica

8 barracks.

9 A. Yes. In the evening, I had been in Zenica, I

10 had just returned from Zenica, and I learned on the

11 road that Zivko Totic had been arrested. I came in the

12 afternoon, and late in the evening, they came by car to

13 the barracks, there was Mr. Kordic, Darko Kraljevic,

14 and Vinac. There was another person with them but I

15 couldn't describe him precisely for you because I only

16 saw him on one other occasion after that.

17 Q. How many people did you see exactly that

18 evening?

19 A. Five or six. Five or six. I couldn't tell

20 you exactly, but five or six.

21 Q. Apart from the accused Kordic, did all the

22 people in the group belong to the Vitezovi?

23 A. Except for this one person that I didn't

24 know. He was in the Vitezovi, a second time he came to

25 interrogate some prisoners, but I didn't have him

Page 11698

1 registered in any of my lists.

2 Q. Mr. Breljas, does the name Miso Mijic mean

3 anything to you?

4 A. Miso Mijic, yes, I always thought that he was

5 the assistant of Darko Kraljevic for SIS, but later on

6 I discovered that Darko Kraljevic was his assistant for

7 SIS. He was a colonel, and that means that he had the

8 same rank as Darko Kraljevic.

9 Q. Was Miso Mijic present that night?

10 A. Yes, he was there as well, yes.

11 Q. In the course of the meeting with the people

12 you have just referred to, Kordic, Kraljevic, Dragan

13 Vinac, Miso Mijic, and another person whose name you

14 can't recall, you were able to see these people talking

15 among themselves, conferring over something.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Could you tell us what they were talking

18 about?

19 A. I cannot tell you what they were talking

20 about exactly. All I can say is that Mr. Kordic said,

21 "That must be done to the end." Then someone answered

22 to that, "Don't worry. Everything will be fine." Who

23 said that is not something I could tell you under

24 oath.

25 Q. Were there any documents that you were able

Page 11699

1 to see where these people were conferring?

2 A. No. There was a piece of paper with

3 something drawn on it, some kind of a map on it.

4 Whether they had drawn that map on the spot or whether

5 they had brought it with them, I couldn't tell you.

6 Q. I should like to show you a document now,

7 Mr. Breljas. You have just referred to Miso Mijic as a

8 participant in the meeting of the night of the 15th and

9 16th. I will show you a document Z1075.1, "A" for the

10 English version.

11 Mr. Breljas, this document dated the 18th of

12 June 1993, issued by the Security and Information

13 Centre for the Central Bosnia operative zone is signed

14 by Miso Mijic, who appears to be the chief of that

15 centre. Is that the same person who you have referred

16 to, and from this document is it evident that Mr. Darko

17 Kraljevic was his deputy?

18 A. Yes, I can see that. But I must repeat, I

19 always thought that the situation was the other way

20 around, that he was Kraljevic's deputy and not the

21 other way around. But now I see that I was wrong, that

22 the situation was vice versa. I don't know how I came

23 to that conclusion because Mr. Kraljevic was the

24 commander of the Vitezovi, and whenever I had a list,

25 the list was headed by Colonel Darko Kraljevic, after

Page 11700

1 which came Miso Mijic. And that is why I always

2 thought that Miso Mijic was his deputy. But I now see

3 that that is wrong.

4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Lopez-Terres, would you

5 clarify, please, what the Central Bosnia SIS Centre

6 is.

7 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

8 Mr. President, for your observation.

9 Q. Mr. Breljas, could you tell us once again

10 very briefly what, in your opinion, was the SIS?

11 A. Well, you see, I cannot tell you definitely.

12 All I know is that it was the secret police of the

13 Croatian army.

14 Q. Mr. Miso Mijic was, in addition to Colonel

15 Blaskic, the head of this SIS service of the Croatia

16 army of Central Bosnia?

17 A. I cannot confirm that decidedly. I didn't

18 see any contacts between him and Blaskic, but I do know

19 that he was attached to the Vitezovi. I know that he

20 was there all the time, that he always accompanied

21 Kraljevic. But it is difficult for me to confirm that

22 he had any particular contact with Blaskic. I see from

23 this document that he was, but it is not something that

24 I can confirm. I know that he was a permanent member

25 of the Vitezovi, that he was always with Kraljevic,

Page 11701

1 that he shared the command with Kraljevic, but I

2 couldn't say anything more than that.

3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Usher.

4 Within the framework of your duties as an

5 officer for propaganda and information, you

6 participated in the weekly press conferences held by

7 Dario Kordic. Could you tell us about that?

8 A. Yes. Every week, once I had a press

9 conference together with the Blaskic IPD chief, who was

10 the chief of all of us, and also we would go to

11 Busovaca once a week with Dario Kordic and Blaskic, and

12 some other individuals, some would come on and off.

13 Q. Did Ignac Kostroman usually participate in

14 those press conferences?

15 A. Yes, on a number of occasions. But there was

16 some occasions when he was absent.

17 Q. Where were these press conferences held,

18 Mr. Breljas?

19 A. I don't come from those parts. I come from

20 Sarajevo. But I know that it was in the Busovaca

21 municipality on the first floor in the small hall

22 there. In a hall of the Busovaca town hall.

23 Q. Thank you. In the course of those press

24 conferences you were able to note that the speeches

25 made by the accused Kordic were more or less always the

Page 11702

1 same. Could you tell us what you recollect of the

2 words used by the accused?

3 A. Yes. On most occasions he would say, "We

4 have been here for 1.000 years. The tombs of our

5 ancestors are here and we will defend this to the end

6 and succeed in defending it."

7 Q. Do you remember what Mr. Kordic wore at those

8 press conferences?

9 A. He was very relaxed. He would not allow

10 anyone to provoke him. In my personal opinion, I

11 believe that he wanted to encourage hatred between the

12 Croats and the Muslims of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

13 Q. But you didn't quite answer my question. But

14 to follow up on what you have said. Did Mr. Kordic

15 regularly refer to the struggle against the Muslims in

16 his speeches at those press conferences?

17 A. Yes. That was the leitmotif. He kept

18 talking about the struggle against the Muslims; that we

19 Croats of Bosnia-Herzegovina have to fight for survival

20 in our own land, which has been Croatian for a thousand

21 years, and that we must protect the Croatian tombs.

22 That is the gist of what he said and what I said.

23 Q. The Muslims were described as the aggressors;

24 were they not?

25 A. Yes.

Page 11703

1 Q. I am now going back to my earlier question.

2 That question was what kind of clothes did Mr. Kordic

3 wear? Were they civilian clothes or perhaps military?

4 A. No, he wore a uniform. He had a large cross

5 on a chain and it was, as a rule, a camouflage

6 uniform. When the weather was warm, then he would have

7 a camouflage shirt. When it grew colder, then it would

8 be a camouflage jacket.

9 Q. You told us that he had usually two persons

10 with him during those press conferences, that is

11 Mr. Blaskic and Mr. Kostroman at times, but who chaired

12 those press conferences?

13 A. From what I could see and what I knew, it was

14 Mr. Kordic who chaired them.

15 Q. And did you sometimes meet at those press

16 conferences Mr. Anto Valenta too?

17 A. Yes. He attended three times or maybe two.

18 I couldn't tell you exactly. But he was there two

19 times that I know for certain, because once I provoked

20 him.

21 Q. Did Mr. Anto Valenta hold different press

22 conferences at a different place?

23 A. Yes. He started to do that somewhat later,

24 perhaps in June or July. In his hotel in Vitez, where

25 the meeting point in Vitez was, in his office. When he

Page 11704

1 was there, that is where he also held press

2 conferences, that is, his own press conferences.

3 Q. Mr. Breljas, we are now sometime in May 1993

4 and you went to Tisovac again accompanied by a person

5 named Zvonko or Zvonimir Cilic, who was prevalent in

6 the Vitez Brigade, and you were accompanied also by a

7 cameraman of the Vitezovi brigade. Do you remember

8 that?

9 A. Quite true. I do remember.

10 Q. And the purpose of this visit was to attend

11 an interview with the accused, with Mr. Kordic?

12 A. Yes. The IPD of the Vitez Brigade was to

13 make an interview with Mr. Kordic, and the three of us

14 went there.

15 Q. I should now like to show you a document,

16 Mr. Breljas, which perhaps has to do something with

17 what I have just told you, and especially the cameraman

18 which you mentioned. It is document Z1153/1. As you

19 can see, Mr. Breljas, this document has a list of names

20 of individuals who were placed at the disposal of the

21 Vitez Brigade and who all belonged to the Radio

22 Television, Vitez.

23 A. Yes, that is correct. And I know most of

24 them.

25 Q. Precisely. In this list which we will see in

Page 11705

1 this document, could you identify the cameraman of the

2 Vitez Brigade with whom you just mentioned?

3 A. Yes. Mr. Stipovic, Srecko Stipovic.

4 Q. You already spoke about somebody called

5 Marija. Aren't you confused, perhaps?

6 A. Yes, quite true. But later on -- mind you,

7 they all have the same first names, so very often the

8 same surnames. And since I am an outsider, that is how

9 I got confused. So I am quite sure that he is

10 Stipovic. I wasn't sure about the first name,

11 Marijan. Marjanovic was the boss and somehow I

12 connected Stipo (sic) with Marijanovic. And that is

13 what I said, Marijan Stipovic, but that is not true,

14 that is Srecko Stipovic, and I know the man very well.

15 Q. All right. Thank you very much.

16 In July 1993, or in summer 1993, you once

17 again met the accused Dario Kordic in Busovaca after a

18 press conference during a pistol handing ceremony --

19 A. Not after the conference, but during, in the

20 course of the conference, during the press conference.

21 Q. I see. And was Colonel Blaskic present too,

22 as well as a military prosecutor, and you told us that

23 his first name was Marinko?

24 A. Whether he was already a military prosecutor

25 present there, or did he come later on or was he there

Page 11706

1 before, I'm not quite sure. But Mr. Kordic, that is

2 Colonel Kordic and Blaskic, and the third man -- and a

3 third man. There was somebody else, but I can't really

4 say for that -- it was that. That is Mr. Marinko, he

5 was a prosecutor, but whether he was that at that time,

6 I'm not quite sure.

7 Q. And the purpose of that ceremony was to hand

8 out the pistols, which had just arrived from Croatia,

9 and which had engraved the signature of Mr. Boban, the

10 President?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. You had designated two members of the Vitez

13 Brigade who should receive those pistols as a kind of

14 reward?

15 A. Yes. The regular units were receiving those

16 pistols for the best soldiers, and because it was up to

17 me to decide who were the best soldiers, I picked out

18 two and took them there.

19 Q. And the Vitez Brigade was also awarded a

20 prize during that ceremony?

21 A. Yes, but they were more numerous because

22 simply they numbered more men than we did.

23 Q. And a little later, in 1993 and towards the

24 end of 1993, Mr. Breljas, you had the opportunity of

25 meeting the accused Dario Kordic in Vitez. Could you

Page 11707

1 tell us something about the circumstances under which

2 you saw Dario Kordic then?

3 A. Well, depends when it was, because I saw him

4 twice. The first time when I had been in Vitezovi,

5 everybody was leaving slowly and I heard that Zabrdze

6 would be attacked. And since my soldiers were up

7 there, who were very good soldiers, because they did

8 not steal ammunition, they were short of ammunition.

9 So at midnight I called the rally point in Vitez where

10 Mr. Sliskovic was on duty, and I told him that I needed

11 to --

12 JUDGE MAY: I am going to interrupt you,

13 Mr. Breljas, because I am not following this evidence.

14 When was it that this occurred?

15 A. It was sometime in July. And the second time

16 in August.

17 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Did you have an opportunity to meet

19 Mr. Kordic on the premises of the Impregnacija factory?

20 A. Yes. It was in December, in the latter half

21 of December, when the BiH Army attacked Krizancevo

22 Selo. Since Mr. Blaskic was in Mostar, then it was

23 Mr. Kordic who in person lead the defence of Krizancevo

24 Selo and Buhine Kuce. And I arrived with my ten men to

25 defend, that is to try to set up the front. Then I met

Page 11708

1 him at Impregnacija with the commanders of the Vitez

2 Brigade, and they were discussing matters concerning

3 the -- this attack.

4 Q. What was Mr. Kordic discussing with the Vitez

5 Brigade commanders at that point?

6 A. I cannot tell you that, because I was some

7 five or six metres away from them. And I was having

8 trouble with my own men. So that I can't tell you.

9 But he was one of the commanders; that is, there was

10 the area commander and he as his superior. But what

11 they were talking about, I could not hear. And I

12 wasn't really interested.

13 Q. Could it be that they were discussing the

14 counter-attack after the Muslim offensive?

15 A. Well, yes, that would be the most likely

16 explanation, because they were looking at a map,

17 discussing, so presumably they were talking about how

18 to attack, how to defend. Or what do I know?

19 JUDGE MAY: Who was it who was looking at the

20 map, please?

21 A. Kordic and the area commander.

22 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] It seems

23 to me that the word "Kordic" was omitted from the

24 French interpretation. It was said "Kordic and the

25 area commander," not "Kordic as the area commander,"

Page 11709

1 but "Kordic and area commander." Yes, "Kordic and area

2 commander."

3 Q. I should now like to show you a document,

4 Mr. Breljas, which is a document drawn up in January

5 1994 by Major Dragan Vinac, about whom you already

6 spoke to us about. It is Z1380. Will you please look

7 at the last page of that document, the one which bears

8 Mr. Vinac's signature, and where in the last part he

9 speaks about the 22nd of December 1993. Do you see

10 that passage?

11 A. Just a moment, please. I can't read it all

12 that fast.

13 Q. That is the penultimate passage above the

14 signature. It says on the 22nd of December 1993.

15 A. I can't see it. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Yes,

16 yes, yes. 22nd December 1993. Yes, I've read it.

17 Q. What is the link between this document? Does

18 this document bear on that period of time that you have

19 mentioned when you saw Mr. Kordic at Impregnacija which

20 you just mentioned?

21 A. I don't think it was on that particular day.

22 I believe it was likely later, a day or two later.

23 Q. But, in any event, it is a period when you

24 had to provide reinforcements for the Vitez Brigade in

25 order to defend against the attack of the Muslims?

Page 11710

1 A. Yes, but I think this was the date of the

2 attack. Two days later, the Vitezovi were reformed so

3 as to come to the rescue of the Vitez Brigade and do a

4 part of the job.

5 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

6 Mr. Usher.

7 Q. And that particular day when you met

8 Mr. Kordic, a representative of the Vitez Brigade, on

9 the premises of Impregnacija in December 1993, was that

10 the first time that you could see, that you realised

11 that Mr. Kordic might also be implicated in activities

12 of a military nature?

13 A. No, it was not the first time. I was

14 guessing that even before, but I am a rather good

15 strategist and I know the customs of war, and I noticed

16 that he did not really have any strategic military

17 experience but that he also had a say, that he

18 exercised an influence over the troops in that area.

19 Q. According to you, was Mr. Kordic on one or

20 another occasion issuing any orders to Darko Kraljevic,

21 your commander?

22 A. He could not issue orders to Darko Kraljevic

23 because Darko Kraljevic was a powerful man, but he

24 could indicate to Darko Kraljevic, he could suggest to

25 Darko Kraljevic what should be done and Darko Kraljevic

Page 11711

1 would immediately agree with that end.

2 Q. So your impression was that Darko Kraljevic

3 did not discuss those things which Kordic told him.

4 A. No, he did not discuss them. All he cared

5 about was the rifle and to launch an attack. He didn't

6 care about anything else.

7 Q. According to you, when the Vitezovi were sent

8 to the Busovaca area to fight against the Muslims, it

9 was at the request of Dario Kordic, was it?

10 A. Yes. That was in July for the first time.

11 Yes, when they went -- no, not to fight, but to prevent

12 the Muslims from Kacuni where five of our men had been

13 killed.

14 Q. According to the document which I just showed

15 you, which is signed by Mr. Vinac, there is another

16 passage which I should like you to look at. It is

17 still the Prosecution Exhibit Z1380. The passage I'm

18 concerned about is on page 7 of the English version.

19 This document speaks about -- no, it is page 6 of the

20 English version -- the Vitezovi Brigade which was sent

21 to Prosje, Kacuni, and Busovaca on the 5th of July,

22 1993, and it is an operation when the Vitezovi suffered

23 fatalities, that is, Miskovic, Vidovic, Kristo, and

24 Kukic were killed.

25 A. Yes, that is correct. They were killed then,

Page 11712

1 but it was when Kacuni had already answered with an

2 attack.

3 Q. And this passage from the report of

4 Mr. Vinac, is it referring to what you told us about,

5 how the Vitezovi men were sent to the area of Kacuni at

6 Kordic's request?

7 A. Yes, that is correct.

8 Q. Thank you. We're still in the summer of

9 1993. You met the accused Dario Kordic at the Vitez

10 Hotel, didn't you? You had to see him, you had to

11 discuss a problem with him. Do you remember that

12 meeting?

13 A. I was not to meet him. I simply came across

14 him by chance, and then I seized the opportunity to ask

15 him something that I had been wanting to ask him for a

16 long time, that is, to send me somewhere else, to

17 remove me, to send me to trenches if need be because I

18 could not stand it any more. The Vitezovi, they were

19 sent there in order to destroy the place and

20 everything.

21 Q. And what did Mr. Dario Kordic answer you that

22 day?

23 A. He told me, "Oh, let me be. I've got my

24 problems." When I told him that I wanted to be

25 reassigned to another place, he said, "Just leave me

Page 11713

1 alone. I've got my trouble about."

2 Q. But did you tell him what was the source,

3 what was the root of the problem?

4 A. Yes. I learned that later there was the

5 attack from Kacuni because they responded to the

6 provocation. There was an attack against Busovaca, and

7 at that time, Mr. Blaskic was already the commander of

8 the military district, and he was asking Blaskic

9 because only Blaskic could really set the troops in

10 motion, the heavy artillery in motion. Kordic said

11 that he should do so --

12 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry.

13 A. -- and Blaskic was the one who started the

14 artillery.

15 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

16 Q. If I understood you properly, Mr. Kordic

17 asked for the reinforcements and Blaskic

18 responded, "You provoked the Kacuni attack, so you

19 manage it the way you know how."

20 A. Yes, that is how I put it.

21 Q. But let us go back a little bit, Mr. Breljas,

22 to the 16th of April, 1993. That day, you spent the

23 major part of the day with Marinko Plavcic at his

24 command post.

25 A. True.

Page 11714

1 Q. And he said his responsibility covered

2 Krizancevo Selo, Dubravica, and Rijeka; is that so?

3 A. No, not Rijeka really. The Muslims'

4 direction came from Rijeka and he was answering. They

5 were covering Dubravica and Krizancevo Selo, and they

6 were coming from Rijeka and that's also where he was

7 responding with fire.

8 Q. And you could also note on that day, on the

9 16th of April, that not only did the Vitezovi take part

10 in the military operation, but there were also soldiers

11 from the Vitez Brigade.

12 A. Naturally. If there were about 100, 120

13 Vitezovi at the moment and over 300 troops, then it's

14 evident who was there. Only the Vitez Brigade could

15 be.

16 Q. You noted that there was a concerted action

17 on the part of the Vitezovi, the Jokers, and the Vitez

18 Brigade against the area of Stari Vitez on that day, on

19 the 16th of April.

20 A. I can't tell you about the Jokers, but I can

21 tell you about the Vitez Brigade and the Vitezovi.

22 Q. They were responsible for the attack on Stari

23 Vitez.

24 A. Yes, that is correct.

25 Q. According to you, Mr. Breljas, members of the

Page 11715

1 Vitezovi, did they take part in the attack on Ahmici on

2 the 16th of April?

3 A. No, they did not, except perhaps some

4 individuals.

5 Q. You say "no, except ..." So there could have

6 been some Vitezovi who went to fight in Ahmici on that

7 particular day.

8 A. I cannot claim that with certainty --

9 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Stein has an objection.

10 A. I cannot claim that --

11 MR. STEIN: We're within the realm of

12 speculation, and I object.

13 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Lopez-Terres, if you could

14 establish a foundation with the witness what he knows

15 and how he knows about where the various units were

16 that day. Perhaps I could begin by asking this:

17 Whereabouts was the command post of

18 Mr. Plavcic, where you were that day?

19 A. The command post was above the Kalen, the

20 petrol pump, in a private house.

21 JUDGE MAY: In which area?

22 A. Krizancevo Selo.

23 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Mr. Breljas, according to the information

25 that you received or conversation that you heard

Page 11716

1 between Vitezovi members, were there some soldiers,

2 were there some units of the Vitezovi who took part in

3 the attack on Ahmici?

4 A. Well, I could not really claim that with any

5 certainty, I would not really affirm that, but there

6 could have been two who used to live below there, that

7 is, below Ahmici.

8 Q. And how did you receive that information?

9 A. What information do you mean?

10 Q. According to which two soldiers from the

11 Vitezovi might have participated in the attack on

12 Ahmici.

13 A. Yes. Because one is right beneath Ahmici,

14 and on that date he was in Dubravica, and the other

15 one, I didn't see him in Dubravica under the command of

16 Mr. Marinko Plavcic.

17 Q. Do you remember the names of those soldiers?

18 A. Sorry, I do not really wish to mention the

19 names of soldiers because they bore no responsibility

20 for anything. Only their commanders, only their

21 superiors may bear the responsibility under all the

22 rules and all the laws of war.

23 Q. What you told us, I understand that it was

24 the personal initiative of those soldiers, wasn't it?

25 A. True.

Page 11717

1 Q. In the course of that particular day, the

2 16th of April, you received the instructions to abandon

3 the command post at Krizancevo Selo and go to the

4 school at Dubravica and to take care of captured

5 individuals or prisoners of war.

6 A. True.

7 Q. As you went to the school in Dubravica, you

8 could note there were quite a number of dead bodies and

9 very many Muslim houses on fire in Vitez.

10 A. Yes. Now, listen, I'm not from Vitez, I'm

11 not from there. There were houses on fire. But were

12 they Muslim houses? I mean, I know that only through

13 the support of the artillery of the Vitez Brigade,

14 Marinko Plavcic asked that his house be aimed at

15 because there was a Muslim on his house, and he said,

16 "That is my house. Fire at it because there's a

17 Muslim up there."

18 Q. There was a sniper, a Muslim sniper on his

19 house that day?

20 A. That is what he assumed.

21 Q. As you went to the school and when you

22 arrived at the school, you could see that there were

23 several hundred persons, Muslim persons, who were being

24 held prisoner in that school.

25 A. Yes, that is true.

Page 11718

1 Q. And a large number of them were women and

2 children.

3 A. There were men too.

4 Q. And there were between 300 and 400 prisoners

5 there at that moment.

6 A. Well, no, not 400, I know that, but a little

7 less. Around 350, slightly over.

8 Q. And those prisoners, were they detained in

9 the gymnasium of the school, then in the basement, and

10 in four classrooms?

11 A. Yes. Women and children were in classrooms,

12 and men and some women who would not separate from

13 their husbands and their children, they were in the

14 gymnasium. Prisoners in the cellar, they were not

15 those prisoners. Those were military prisoners, and

16 they were separated from all the other prisoners who

17 had also been brought there before.

18 Q. Those military prisoners that you mentioned,

19 could you give us a figure? Could you put a number to

20 them? How many of them were there, more or less?

21 A. Well, they came there on various occasions,

22 so I can give you a complete number of them, and that

23 is 20, and at that particular moment there were four of

24 them.

25 Q. The people you are telling us about, these

Page 11719

1 350 prisoners or somewhat more, were detained in the

2 school until mid May 1993, were they?

3 A. Even after that date. They were there until

4 they were killed.

5 Q. When you say that they were detained until

6 they were killed, what do you mean? Those prisoners

7 were liberated; they were not all killed, were they?

8 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps we can clarify that.

9 Which of the prisoners were killed? I don't want the

10 names. Was it of a particular type, Mr. Breljas?

11 A. No. They were prisoners who were captured

12 near Bobasi. First there were three civilians who

13 apparently pretended to be military men, but in fact

14 they were civilians who wanted to buy some food. One

15 person was a craftsman in the Vitez Hotel where the

16 headquarters of the Vitezovi was located, and he was a

17 craftsman there.

18 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

19 Q. We will come back to some of the detainees

20 who were killed a little later.

21 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Lopez-Terres, it's now time

22 for a break, if that's convenient. We'll adjourn now

23 until half past.

24 --- Recess taken at 11.02 a.m.

25 --- On resuming at 11.38 a.m.

Page 11720

1 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Mr. Breljas, we are going to go back to the

3 conditions of detention of the prisoners in the

4 Dubravica school. You told us that these persons were

5 held in the gym, in four classrooms, and in the

6 basement. You tried to extend aid with the means that

7 you had at your disposal. You gave them clothes, food,

8 some bottles of water, and also some hay to sleep on.

9 But nevertheless, you said that the conditions of

10 detention were far from good.

11 A. They were not good in the basement. The

12 conditions there were appalling. However, in the gym

13 there were very many people, not enough air. As for

14 water, I didn't give them bottles, but across the

15 corridor they had a toilet and they could use the tap

16 water.

17 The women and the children had somewhat

18 better conditions because they were moved from the gym

19 to rooms where, after all, the situation was more

20 tolerable.

21 Q. The detainees could not receive any medical

22 aid, and the food was quite inadequate; was it not?

23 A. That is correct.

24 Q. You designated certain prisoners for

25 trench-digging, and you did so at the request,

Page 11721

1 according to your own hierarchy within the Vitezovi, or

2 at the request of a representative of the Vitez

3 Brigade?

4 A. Yes, they came to collect people for digging,

5 and so Marinko Plavcic and myself, sometimes he,

6 sometimes I, would say, "We needed ten men for

7 digging," and we'd tell them, "You get together ten

8 people," and we'd send them off.

9 Q. As regards the instructions for the

10 designation of prisoners that you received from the

11 Vitez Brigade, they came from several people, and

12 specifically you mentioned the person Mile Vinac, who

13 was a member of the brigade command. And you also

14 mentioned an officer in the brigade known as Zabac or

15 Frog, I think in your language?

16 A. That is true that Vinac would come. As for

17 Zabac, he didn't come to pick the persons. He just

18 came and took them off. But he didn't select them.

19 There were no orders they could give us. He would just

20 say, "I need ten workers," and he would take them off

21 -- take them with him.

22 Q. Did you receive any written orders from the

23 Vitez Brigade regarding the selection of prisoners for

24 this purpose?

25 A. No. No. That was not possible. The Vitez

Page 11722

1 Brigade could not give any such orders to Kraljevic.

2 Q. The prisoners we are talking about who had to

3 dig trenches, as far as you recollect, had to do so in

4 the regions of Buhine Kuce, Bobasi, Kula, Krizancevo

5 Selo, Zabrdze?

6 A. Well, you see, in those days I was still

7 rather new. I know for certain that they went to

8 Buhine Kuce and Krizancevo Selo. At that time I didn't

9 know that they went to Bobasi, but I learnt later that

10 they did go to Bobasi, Zabrdze and other places. But

11 at the time I only knew of Buhine Kuce and Krizancevo

12 Selo and Cucica.

13 Q. You said that these prisoners also received

14 little food; they were sometimes mistreated and beaten

15 by the guards.

16 A. Yes, that is true, and I opposed this. And

17 at our meetings I expressed my opposition. The food

18 was limited for everyone, but they were totally without

19 food. In fact, they would share one can among two

20 prisoners. I don't know how the Vitez Brigade fed its

21 prisoners. I know that I did give some cans

22 occasionally. And there were instances of people being

23 mistreated. And if I could have, I would have taken

24 them to court. Some soldiers, but I don't wish to give

25 their names, would tie the prisoners in chains, forcing

Page 11723

1 the prisoner to bark and bite another prisoner, in

2 response to which this other prisoner would kick him

3 back.

4 Q. You were also informed that some of those

5 prisoners were used as human shields, where they were

6 digging trenches?

7 A. I couldn't describe this as a human shield,

8 even though, according to all rules, it is a human

9 shield. What they did, they put the workers in front

10 of the soldiers. So there wasn't any real intention to

11 use them as a human shield, but according to the rules

12 of war this was contrary to those rules, where the

13 soldier should come first and the workers behind the

14 soldiers. But in this case it was the other way

15 around.

16 Q. You protested on a number of occasions, but

17 apparently this produced no results?

18 A. Yes, no one paid any attention to this. In

19 fact, they declared me to be a fool. And, "What was I

20 showing off about?", they would say.

21 Q. Where did you protest against the bad

22 treatment of prisoners in general and this kind of

23 behaviour in particular?

24 A. The only opportunity I had was to complain to

25 the commander of the operative zone of Vitez, the IPD

Page 11724

1 officer, information and propaganda officer, IPD.

2 Q. We have already referred to this issue prior

3 to the break, that is the issue of the prisoners that

4 were killed during detention by your unit. You said

5 that, as far as you know, some 15 prisoners under the

6 responsibility of the Vitezovi were killed?

7 A. Yes, that is correct.

8 Q. You also knew that there was a practice

9 applied by some soldiers in your unit to cut off ears

10 of members of the BiH Army. You heard about that,

11 didn't you?

12 A. This occurred in all units in the Vitez

13 area. There were soldiers who resorted to this kind of

14 practice.

15 Q. You remember that a member of the Vitezovi

16 brought you two ears one day and said that you should

17 give this to Kraljevic for a snack?

18 A. Yes, that is true. Not two ears, one ear.

19 He said, "Take it to Kraljevic for a snack."

20 Q. There was another member of the Vitezovi whom

21 you said would occasionally wear a garland of ears

22 around his neck.

23 A. He didn't wear it. He made this garland.

24 Let me remember whether he was there. I think that his

25 combat group was not on the positions at the time.

Page 11725

1 They were in the process of preparation for combat.

2 Q. In the period from the 17th to the 20th of

3 April 1993, Darko Kraljevic, your commander, issued

4 orders that should the army offensive continue, that

5 the Dubravica school should be blown up together with

6 the prisoners held there?

7 A. He didn't just say that, but this had been

8 prepared, the mining of the school at Dubravica

9 normally, with all the people inside, whoever was

10 there.

11 Q. There were about 200 kilograms of explosives

12 that were placed around the school?

13 A. I can't tell you exactly, but there was quite

14 a lot of explosive, yes.

15 Q. Sometime around the 20th of April the Armija

16 launched an offensive against the school; the Vitezovi

17 put up a defence line; the area was bombed; and you

18 noted that at a certain point in time the Armija

19 withdrew?

20 A. Yes, the BiH Army -- yes, you could call it

21 the BiH Army from Poculica and from other places, they

22 attacked and they reached about 100 to 150 metres from

23 the entrance to the school. Then the Vitezovi managed

24 to push them back again and they retreated.

25 Q. Did you have the feeling at the time that the

Page 11726

1 BiH Army stopped its offensive because it was aware of

2 the presence of these prisoners in the school and the

3 risk that existed of the building being destroyed?

4 JUDGE MAY: The witness can't answer what the

5 BiH Army did. What was in their minds is a matter for

6 them.

7 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Mr. Breljas, in your opinion, the resistance

9 put up by the Vitezovi around the school, was that the

10 only explanation for the suspension of the army

11 offensive?

12 A. No, I could not agree with that, because

13 according to my military expertise the Vitezovi were

14 weak to repulse such an attack. I think it was either

15 the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina that gave

16 instructions not to attack or the reason was that the

17 explosives had been placed around the school and that a

18 catastrophe might occur.

19 JUDGE MAY: That is precisely the point which

20 I had in mind. The witness can't say what was in the

21 mind of the army. It was -- it's for them to say.

22 Let's move on.

23 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Sometime in May 1993, Mr. Breljas, members of

25 your unit, Nikola and Jako Krizanac, captured Kemal

Page 11727

1 Poricanan, a judge from the region of Travnik, together

2 with his driver called Jasenko; you remember that?

3 A. Yes, I do.

4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Lopez-Terres, if there's no

5 dispute about this evidence, it can be taken fairly

6 shortly.

7 Q. The judge Poricanan and his driver were

8 killed during their detention, weren't they?

9 A. Yes, that is correct.

10 Q. And as far as you know, their bodies were

11 thrown into the Lasva River.

12 A. Yes, correct.

13 Q. Do you also remember that the judge was to

14 have been filmed by a cameraman and that this film was

15 to be shown later on, and in view of the condition of

16 the judge who was beaten, you asked your superior for a

17 postponement so that he would be presentable before the

18 cameras; do you remember that?

19 A. Yes, that is true. He was in the cellar, and

20 to assist him -- he had been very badly beaten up, his

21 ribs had been broken -- and to help him, I told Darko

22 Kraljevic that he could only die in the cellar, that he

23 had to be transferred to a room and to a bed and that

24 he had to be treated.

25 Q. Do you remember the person who was going to

Page 11728

1 film the judge with a camera?

2 A. I don't know him. I saw him when he was

3 filming, when they came, but I really don't know his

4 name, nor do I know who he is. He was just a man who

5 came to make the film, and he actually did film him.

6 Q. Did he belong to a team of cameramen from the

7 Vitez zone placed at the disposal of the Vitez Brigade?

8 A. Not among those that I knew. He may have

9 been someone I didn't know.

10 Q. On November the 1st, 1993, you organised a

11 ceremony in memory of the members of the Vitezovi who

12 had been killed.

13 A. Yes, this was the Day of the Dead, and I

14 prepared the ceremony for the dead Vitezovi.

15 Q. Mr. Kraljevic and Cerkez attended the

16 ceremony?

17 A. To be able to take a decision, I lit three

18 large candles. On one I put the commander of the

19 special purpose Vitezovi, commander of the Vitez

20 Brigade, and commander of the Operative Zone Vitez, for

21 each of them to come and light those candles. Mario

22 Cerkez came to light his, but Mr. Blaskic sent his IPD

23 officer instead of him.

24 Q. Mario Cerkez was unable to exercise the

25 functions of brigade commander after the end of October

Page 11729

1 1993.

2 A. Later, after that, he was commander for

3 sometime after that. He stopped being commander when,

4 at Grobcic, the BH army infiltrated themselves and

5 destroyed 32 soldiers. That is when he was deprived of

6 his command.

7 Q. Could you indicate with greater precision the

8 date when this occurred?

9 A. I think it was the first week of December.

10 Q. In December 1993 then.

11 A. Yes, correct.

12 Q. As far as you know, Mario Cerkez and Darko

13 Kraljevic went to the same school and knew one another

14 very well, they got on very well.

15 A. Whether they went to the same school and the

16 same class, I don't know, but I do know that they knew

17 each other very well because they came from the same

18 place, the same village.

19 Q. Did they meet often, as far as you know?

20 A. Quite certainly they did, but in wartime,

21 between Darko Kraljevic and Mario Cerkez, there was a

22 dispute as to who was the more important commander.

23 That was the only disagreement between them.

24 Everything else functioned normally.

25 Q. On several occasions, you were able to note

Page 11730

1 that it was Mr. Cerkez who provided Darko Kraljevic

2 with fuel when he was short of it.

3 A. Not only did I note it but I was present when

4 Darko Kraljevic picked up the telephone and talked to

5 Cerkez, and then he said at the end, "We're old

6 friends. Will you give me some fuel because I haven't

7 got any?" and then he said, "Of course I will." I was

8 quite close and I could hear this conversation.

9 Q. You told us that as far as you know the

10 Vitezovi unit was not formally subordinated to the

11 Vitez Brigade, but there was an agreement, according to

12 which, for logistic reasons, the Vitezovi unit was

13 sometimes called the 4th Battalion of the Vitez

14 Brigade.

15 A. If I may, I would have to give you a more

16 detailed answer to make myself quite clear. The

17 Vitezovi and the Vitez Brigade were absolutely the same

18 unit, the only thing being that the Vitezovi were the

19 assault units, the special troops, elite troops,

20 whereas the Vitezovi [as interpreted] were defensive

21 forces. There was some disagreement over the command.

22 The command was disunited, but the troops, the

23 Vitezovi, were the storm units of the Vitez Brigade.

24 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] I think

25 there's a small error in the transcript. The

Page 11731

1 distinction between the Vitezovi as the assault unit

2 and special unit, "whereas the Vitezovi," it says

3 again, but it should be "members of the Vitez Brigade

4 were defensive forces."

5 Q. You saw repeatedly that the Vitezovi and the

6 Vitez Brigade acted jointly in the Vitez sector and

7 that on those occasions, during such operations, the

8 Vitezovi received instructions from Mario Cerkez who,

9 in his turn, received them from the operative centre of

10 Central Bosnia, that is, Colonel Blaskic.

11 MR. KOVACIC: I object, Your Honour. I think

12 it is clearly too leading a question.

13 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Breljas, would you tell us

14 how you understood the command structure to be

15 involving these people, particularly Colonel Blaskic

16 and Mr. Cerkez.

17 A. I did not say -- I never said that Colonel

18 Blaskic took part in it, but they were separated in the

19 sense that they did not fight together and they

20 couldn't because the Vitezovi PPD was a storm unit and

21 the others were defence units. But they could not

22 command the Vitezovi because Kraljevic would not let

23 them. It was said where the Vitezovi would fight,

24 along which route, and that had to be more difficult

25 and it was in the operative zone of the military

Page 11732

1 district of Vitez at Zavisna [phoen], and that is the

2 only place where I think they had contact with the

3 military district or, rather, Colonel Blaskic.

4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Just to

5 round off the question that was asked by the President,

6 Judge May, could you tell the Chamber what was the

7 position of Mr. Cerkez in this command structure.

8 A. Mr. Cerkez, in the first half, he commanded

9 Vitez as a whole. In his operative zone, his

10 operatives decided what would be cleansed, what would

11 not, and what would happen. But the Vitezovi at that

12 time would be directed at a certain segment, a certain

13 part of the area which ought to be attacked, but such

14 orders could be issued by Darko Kraljevic and only by

15 Darko Kraljevic.

16 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Could

17 Mr. Cerkez then issue orders to the Vitezovi or was

18 that reserved only for Mr. Darko Kraljevic? Did they

19 receive their orders from anyone but Darko Kraljevic?

20 A. You're quite right, because the Vitezovi

21 would not obey him, would not do what they were told by

22 him, except that I do not know whether he and Kraljevic

23 would previously agree on an attack. He could not

24 issue any direct orders to the Vitezovi, but he could

25 not do that even though I would have liked him too.

Page 11733

1 But perhaps the two of them agreed about these things

2 together. I don't know.

3 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] Thank you,

4 Mr. Breljas.

5 When military operation would be organised in

6 the command area of Mr. Mario Cerkez, it meant

7 distributing sectors among individual units. Who would

8 tell Darko Kraljevic where should the Vitezovi be

9 employed?

10 A. Darko Kraljevic had a deputy commander who

11 was sent to Vitezovi to destroy it, and that Dragan

12 Vinac, Dragan Vinac, he received orders because Darko

13 had already given in in 1993. He already realised that

14 the war was not a fair war. He was a good soldier,

15 perhaps a bit crude, but he was a good soldier. And he

16 was already giving in, therefore, so as to take the

17 command, Dragan Vinac, so as to take over the command.

18 And he planted all his friends, the majors, like

19 Plavcic, to be killed. And after Vinac there was also

20 this gentleman, what was his name, we call him grey

21 haired, the major, Sidi. He was a big master of Darko

22 Kraljevic, but he was trying very seriously to push

23 Darko Kraljevic in doing these things.

24 Q. I think we need a correction in the question

25 asked. I said, "Who could be issuing orders to Darko

Page 11734

1 Kraljevic?" Rather it was "Dario Kordic," as the

2 transcript said.

3 A. Well, such orders could have come from Mario

4 Cerkez in the former half of 1993. In the second half

5 1993 only Blaskic.

6 Q. You know from your field experience that

7 during military operations that we are talking about

8 the Vitezovi as a rule proceeded to the -- to the

9 plunder of individual houses, and there looted usually

10 small valuables, small sized valuables. Following

11 that, when the brigade units would arrive, each would

12 be larger objects of value which would be taken away by

13 the troops?

14 A. Vitezovi, as I have said, they were the storm

15 troops and they would be the first ones to enter a

16 locality. They were always on the front line. So

17 whatever they collected, they collected. Some small

18 things that you could pocket or put in your packsack or

19 whatever. But as the others came, they would take out

20 refrigerators and whatnot, and those who arrived last

21 would take off roof tiles from the roof.

22 MR. STEIN: Pardon me, Your Honour, the

23 transcript should reflect on page 60, line 15 and 13,

24 that the name is "Darko Kraljevic," not "Dario Kordic."

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

Page 11735

1 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] I already

2 said that.

3 Q. So you are saying that there would be several

4 waves of attack, if I could call it that, of attack and

5 pillage. You said that Vitezovi would take small

6 objects and that others would help themselves to larger

7 objects. You say others. Who are they?

8 A. I mean the Vitez Brigade and those units, the

9 units of the Vitez Brigade, that is the rear units who

10 came at the second wave. Vitezovi were the ones who

11 would launch the first onslaught and who would start

12 the street fighting. And when that would be over --

13 because Vitez Brigade was a slightly more regular and

14 larger unit. And then the Vitez Brigade would come to

15 establish order -- order -- not order, disorder, but

16 also an order of some kind. And then they would

17 collect whatever they would happen to lay their hands

18 on. And then the refugees would come and would pick

19 out houses as they pleased and all the rest of it.

20 Q. And when the Vitez soldiers, when you said

21 took away refrigerators, furniture and things, I

22 suppose they used some vehicles to do that?

23 A. Vitezovi did not take those things away.

24 This was done by those from the Vitez Brigade.

25 Vitezovi would take smaller watches, gold, money, or

Page 11736

1 they would take passenger cars, for instance, tractors,

2 that is, things which were mobile. Otherwise with

3 trucks, that was done by the Vitez Brigade. These were

4 the ones. When these ones left, the other ones arrived

5 with a truck -- loaded trucks and left. And the war

6 was -- I mean, the attack was still raging on.

7 Q. You said that on the 18th of December 1993,

8 you had a list of Vitezovi members who were killed in

9 the conflict, at least on that particular date. I

10 should like to show this document which you signed,

11 which is Z13371. You were the one who drew up the

12 document, didn't you?

13 A. True. And that is not a complete document.

14 Two sheets are missing.

15 Q. There is a page with 33 names, I believe.

16 A. The list had to be longer, because I would

17 write in my report the fatalities, the casualties, and

18 those who could fight. But these are dead. But the

19 list is much longer. The list of the killed is much

20 longer. I mean, those killed in combat. They were

21 about 200 of them and, from what I can see here, there

22 is only -- 80. Excuse me. And here we have only 33

23 names. So it must have been lost somewhere.

24 Q. But you are confirming your signature, the

25 signature at the end of the page?

Page 11737

1 A. Yes. Yes. That is true. This is the seal

2 of our unit and this is my signature.

3 Q. I should like also to look at another

4 document, which is on the 10th of May 1993. And it is

5 Z871,1. Z871,1. It is a document dated 10th of May

6 1993, signed by Major Dragan Vinac. Do you see the

7 document?

8 A. Yes. It's true that it was signed by Vinac

9 and this is Vinac's signature. That I can see.

10 Q. I should like to show now a third document,

11 which is Z808. It is a list compiled on the 24th of

12 April 1993, by your counterpart in the Vitez Brigade,

13 that is the officer responsible for information and

14 propaganda, Zvonimir Cilic, whom we already mentioned

15 before.

16 A. Yes, I see that. I see the -- that some of

17 the names come from the Vitez Brigade.

18 Q. And as regards these three documents,

19 Mr. Breljas, you yourself said that there are several

20 names which appear on the list of the Vitez Brigade

21 members, that is on this list of Cilic, and that these

22 same names appear also on the other to a list of the

23 Vitezovi unit. I can give you these five names. They

24 are Lovro Kolak, Anto Franjic, Ivan Zuljevic, Vlado

25 Frankjovic, Zoran Ramljak.

Page 11738

1 A. As for the first four, from what I know, they

2 were in Vitez and in Vitezovi. As for the fifth, I'm

3 not sure because I do not have them on my files. I do

4 know about one who was killed in the attack on Mahala,

5 that is Stari Vitez, Mr. Ninko, and I wrote for him a

6 report on the casualties. But when I came to the

7 person who was sorting it out in the military district,

8 I found it again. And she also said, "How could he be

9 in two units, Vitezovi and here?" I said, "I don't

10 know. I have been given orders and he was there and he

11 was working, he was operating -- handling the motor

12 launcher, and that is why I wrote his name down." And

13 all of a sudden he turned up on the Vitezovi brigade

14 list. So he seems to have been in both places.

15 Q. And from the diaries of the documents it

16 seems that there was a certain confusion as for the

17 membership of these soldiers, in which units did they

18 belong to?

19 A. Well, yes, that's what it would look like.

20 Q. In the document which was signed by

21 Mr. Dragan Vinac, which is Z871,1. Do you have that

22 document?

23 A. I do.

24 Q. And can you see in place number 2 and 3, two

25 soldiers mentioned here as men killed in combat, one of

Page 11739

1 them is Blaz Plavcic and the other one Goran Blazevic?

2 A. Yes. Yes, true. True.

3 Q. These two soldiers appear also on your list?

4 A. Yes, that is true.

5 Q. And you said that they were killed on the

6 23rd of October, 1992, both of them. Do you know about

7 the circumstances under which these soldiers, members

8 of this unit, were killed?

9 A. No, I wouldn't know that, because I was not

10 there at the time, why I put them -- the names here.

11 In Vitezovi, complete chaos reigned, so I tried to

12 collect all the odds and ends, and when I would find

13 somebody, that somebody had been killed, I would list

14 him down as killed from amongst the members of the

15 Vitezovi. But I don't really know anything about it

16 because there was no order in all these papers until I

17 started filing the casualties, fatalities and others.

18 Q. But do you know in what sector were the two

19 of them killed?

20 A. I do know about late Mr. Plavcic, because he

21 was my commander as brother. He was killed somewhere

22 above Novi Travnik in a village, but I really wouldn't

23 be able to give the name of the village. I know it is

24 above Novi Travnik. And he described it to me, but I

25 did not go there. And so I can't really know what the

Page 11740

1 name of the place is. I know it is above Novi

2 Travnik. It is said that they were -- they had a clash

3 above Novi Travnik and it was in one of those villages

4 that he was killed.

5 Q. Thank you. Mr. Usher, I should like to show

6 the last document to the witness. It is Z1279.

7 Mr. Breljas, will you please look at page 5

8 of the document. There is a paragraph 6 there. It is

9 called "measures taken by the administration." Can you

10 see the paragraph?

11 A. Yes, I do.

12 Q. And in this paragraph 6 there is a sub item 5

13 which relates to the Vitezovi.

14 A. Listen, this is in English, and I'd rather

15 have the translation of it --

16 Q. Oh, I'm sorry, yes. Yes, there is the

17 original version in Serbo-Croatian, page 5, paragraph 6

18 and subparagraph 5.

19 A. Except I can't find it here. Four, five.

20 Q. Can you see that passage?

21 A. I do. Yes, I can.

22 Q. Do you recall if your unit was ordered to

23 take to the front line soldiers of the Vitez Brigade

24 who were refusing to fight?

25 A. That I do recall. I can't find it here, but

Page 11741

1 I recall that very well indeed. And I even

2 demonstrated against that. I immediately went to the

3 district -- to the military district and said to put a

4 stop to that, because it is not up to Vitezovi to go

5 and try to round up men, but that would be only to

6 undermine the name of the Vitezovi, because before that

7 they had very high prestige. And that was meant to

8 undermine it, to smear their image so that people would

9 start hating them.

10 Q. Do you remember the order itself which was

11 issued to you at the time, and who did it come from?

12 A. No. I got the order. I know it came from

13 the Vitez Brigade, that those who'd fled from the front

14 line, that the Vitezovi should immediately proceed to

15 action, round them up in their homes and force them

16 back to the front line, but those were oral, those were

17 verbal orders only.

18 Q. Mr. Breljas, this document is of the 31st of

19 October, 1993. I merely wanted to draw your attention

20 to the fact that on that date, as you told us a moment

21 ago, Mario Cerkez was still the commander of the

22 brigade.

23 A. The 31st, yes, true.

24 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] Thank

25 you. We've finished with the documents.

Page 11742

1 Q. Mr. Breljas, for the last time, as for your

2 intervention as an interpreter at Kraljevic's request

3 when a humanitarian convoy was blocked at the

4 crossroads, at the intersection in Dubravica, do you

5 remember that?

6 A. I do, yes.

7 Q. Could you please tell us what happened when

8 you were asked to interpret on that occasion.

9 A. A soldier came to the barracks and said, "We

10 need an interpreter up there on the bridge to Vitez,"

11 and I went there. I saw there Mario Cerkez, there were

12 a number of people in trucks, and I also saw a tank and

13 a British -- rather, a U.N. APC there. And Mario

14 Cerkez then told me that I should tell them that they

15 could not proceed, because Darko Kraljevic also came

16 and I was ready to obey him, and he said, "Tell them

17 that they cannot move on," and I did to the Major, so I

18 did say that to the Major and told Mr. Major, "My

19 commander says that you may not move on or else they

20 will turn their RPGs on you and fire," and then my

21 commander, Darko Kraljevic, said, "And tell them that I

22 must search the tanks." So I told them, will they

23 allow us. They allowed us, and when he searched them

24 all, then he told the commander of the Vitez Brigade,

25 Mario Cerkez, "Tell us, what are we to do now, to let

Page 11743

1 them go or what?" And Mario Cerkez said, "Oh, no,

2 we're not letting them go." And then he said, "Right.

3 Then I will take a fresh leave," and he said, "You wait

4 here. Until I give you an order to withdraw, don't

5 withdraw," and I told this to the Major. The Major

6 went to sleep, and I went to a vehicle because the

7 night had fallen in the meantime. So I was there until

8 3.00 or 4.00 in the morning in that vehicle, drowsing,

9 sleeping, and then a soldier came and told me to let

10 the APC or the tank go, and I went to the Major and

11 said, "Major, you are free. You may go now."

12 Q. And this convoy, where was it headed?

13 A. It was the convoy which had been formed in

14 Split and was due for Tuzla.

15 Q. And do you know what happened to a large

16 number of vehicles in that convoy?

17 A. There is no living man who could explain it.

18 You would need at least 30 or 40 men who were in

19 different places because all of a sudden, this convoy

20 was taken and nobody knows what went where. Something

21 about 100 to 120 lorries went down to the explosive

22 factory and were there, and the others were driven

23 away, taken also in different directions, and nobody

24 knows where is what. In my barracks, I found seven

25 trucks and the rest, well, they were all over Vitez and

Page 11744

1 the surrounding villages. They had been driven away to

2 all sorts of places. I don't know how to explain it to

3 you really.

4 Q. After these events in September 1993, you

5 were able to see that Mario Cerkez and Colonel Blaskic

6 participated together in the capture of the village of

7 Grbavica.

8 A. Yes, that is correct. Mario Cerkez and

9 Colonel Blaskic were in a church near Mosunj. The

10 artillery for the attack was on a hill above the

11 explosives factory, and the attack was to start on

12 Grbavica. That is the first and only attack

13 strategically carried out in accordance with all rules

14 of warfare. Only one man was killed, one civilian, by

15 chance, and the Jokers ran into a minefield and didn't

16 move any further.

17 Q. The units that participated in this attack

18 were the Vitezovi, the Vitez Brigade, and the Jokers.

19 A. Yes, correct. There may have been some

20 others but I'm not aware of it.

21 Q. And at the end of December 1993, Colonel

22 Blaskic demanded the disbanding of the Vitezovi unit.

23 A. Yes. This was after Christmas, just before

24 the new year, we received orders. First we received

25 congratulations from Mr. Ante Roso, the commander of

Page 11745

1 Herceg-Bosna, he was newly appointed, and he expressed

2 best wishes for Christmas and the new year. And

3 immediately after that, they said that every soldier

4 who was looting would be sent to prison and some

5 executed, and eventually there was an order that the

6 Vitezovi should be disbanded.

7 Q. Was that the first time that you heard this

8 type of threat made against soldiers for misbehaviour?

9 A. Yes, that is the first time since I had

10 joined those ranks that there was such a strict order

11 to that effect.

12 Q. A certain number of former members of the

13 Vitezovi unit were integrated in the new brigade set up

14 in Vitez that became the 3rd Guards Brigade of which

15 the commander was Dragan Vinac, your former deputy

16 commander; isn't that correct?

17 A. He wasn't the commander but he was the deputy

18 commander. The commander was -- I know the name but

19 for the moment I can't recollect. He was the deputy

20 and he was the founder of the Vitez Brigade. But the

21 commander, I don't know exactly who he was.

22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Breljas.

23 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

24 Mr. President, I have finished with the

25 examination-in-chief of this witness.

Page 11746

1 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Stein.

2 MR. STEIN: Thank you, Your Honour.

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Stein:

4 Q. Mr. Breljas, my name is Bob Stein. I

5 represent Dario Kordic. If there's any question that I

6 ask you that you don't understand, will you let me

7 know?

8 A. Very well.

9 Q. Now, I understand from papers supplied to us

10 by the Office of the Prosecutor that you speak English;

11 is that correct?

12 A. That is correct.

13 Q. Greek.

14 A. Some Greek, yes, that is correct.

15 Q. Italian.

16 A. Again, a little bit. Not very well, but a

17 little bit.

18 Q. And, of course, your native tongue, Croatian

19 or B/C/S; correct?

20 A. Of course.

21 Q. Now, you spoke with officials from the

22 Prosecutor's office, did you not? Specifically, you

23 spoke with them in March of 1998 between April -- I'm

24 sorry --

25 A. That is correct.

Page 11747

1 Q. You spent eight days with them altogether;

2 correct?

3 A. That is correct.

4 Q. And during that interview, you spoke Bosnian

5 and English; right?

6 A. Listen, the Bosnian language is really the

7 Serbo-Croatian language, but very well, let's make it

8 Bosnian and English.

9 Q. Fair enough. In any event, sir, during that

10 eight-day interview with representatives from the

11 Prosecutor's office, they told you that they were going

12 to ask you a series of questions and that some of your

13 answers may, in fact, make you a war criminal; isn't

14 that correct?

15 A. Yes, that is correct.

16 Q. And, indeed, they warned you about your

17 rights against incriminating yourself, did they not?

18 A. They said -- but I told them, "I am not

19 afraid of it. I have nothing to be afraid of. I am

20 speaking the truth and I have nothing to fear."

21 Q. Then let me ask you this, sir: At the end of

22 your statement, and I would like to hand that to you

23 now, there's room for your signature. Take a look at

24 the back page, please. There's room for your

25 signature, is there not, sir?

Page 11748

1 A. Yes. But now I'm reading it.

2 Q. But you didn't sign it, did you, sir?

3 A. Listen, I don't know. Whatever I was given

4 to sign, I signed, whatever was translated to me. I

5 don't know what document this is. You have to explain

6 to me what this is so that I would know. I did sign

7 some documents, but I don't know what this is.

8 Q. Well, take a look at the front page, sir.

9 This is the document that you participated in in March

10 of 1998, an interview. Sir, if you look at the first

11 page.

12 A. Yes, that is correct. I don't know how I did

13 not sign this. I signed whatever I was supposed to

14 sign, and about this, I am not clear how this was not

15 also handed in to me to sign. I don't know.

16 Q. In any event, sir, you were given an

17 opportunity to read that statement before testifying

18 today; isn't that correct?

19 A. That is correct.

20 Q. And everything said in that statement is true

21 and correct; isn't that so, sir?

22 A. I don't know in this one, but in the one that

23 was read back to me, yes.

24 Q. All right. During your meeting before your

25 testimony with the Prosecutor, didn't they give you the

Page 11749

1 opportunity to look at that statement and read it and

2 make corrections to it if you wanted to?

3 A. Yes. This was during the investigation, not

4 in the court. They asked me to correct anything I had

5 to correct, and then after that everything was regular

6 and whatever I was told, that was in there and that is

7 what I signed. I don't know what this is.

8 Q. If I understand your answer, sir, when these

9 investigators from the ICTY were done with you in March

10 of 1998, they went through this with you, gave you an

11 opportunity to correct it, you made no corrections, and

12 it stands as a true and correct document; is that

13 right, sir?

14 A. Yes, that is correct. That is correct.

15 Q. Similarly, in November of 1996, November 7 to

16 be specific, you also gave a statement --

17 A. Yes, that is correct.

18 Q. -- and that was to the Bosnian authorities.

19 I'd like to give you a copy of that statement, please.

20 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Stein, if anything --

21 A. Yes, that is correct.

22 JUDGE MAY: -- if anything turns on these

23 documents, we shall need copies.

24 MR. STEIN: Yes, I have them for you, Your

25 Honour.

Page 11750

1 Q. Everything you told the Bosnian authorities

2 is also correct and true; yes, sir?

3 A. Yes, that is correct and true.

4 Q. And last, you appeared before the

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina Presidency State Commission for

6 Gathering Facts on War Crimes and told them the truth

7 too, did you not? And that would have been in February

8 1998.

9 A. That is not correct. I did say some things

10 but that was only two pages, the basic things that they

11 were interested in. They were interested in the

12 looting of the convoy and some minor things, and this

13 is what I told them, and it amounted to only two

14 pages.

15 Q. And here are those two pages, sir. My point

16 being that everything in these two pages is true and

17 correct; yes? That's your signature on the last page,

18 is it not, sir?

19 A. Yes, but this only states that I would give a

20 statement. But when I got -- when I made contact with

21 the War Crimes Tribunal, I stopped that, I never went

22 there and never gave a statement after that.

23 Q That two-page statement before you is true

24 and correct; is it not, sir?

25 A. Yes, those two pages. Yes, that is correct.

Page 11751

1 Q. I understand, sir, that you were picked up --

2 strike that. Do I understand that Colonel Stewart,

3 Colonel Robert Stewart, passed you on the road to Vitez

4 and then later picked you up there and took you to

5 Vitez in April of 1993. Do you remember that?

6 A. Yes, that is when I had gone to Zenica on one

7 occasion, and on the way back from Zenica he picked me

8 up. At that time already, that was the time when Zivko

9 Totic was arrested. That was actually that very day.

10 That was the day when he picked me up there.

11 Q. Do I understand that Colonel Stewart picked

12 you up after he had actually passed by you once and

13 told you to wait there; is that right?

14 A. Yes, that is correct. Because the shooting

15 had already started and also the shelling, and I was up

16 at Sljivcica, and that was in the Muslim territory, and

17 I realised that I was in trouble because I was late. I

18 was in civilian clothes. And I said "Mr. Stewart" --

19 actually, I didn't address him like that. I said, "I

20 am a Croat. Can you drop me to the Croatian border?"

21 He said, "Yes." I had to go to Zenica then. On the

22 way back I helped him remove several anti-tank mines.

23 I did not move from that spot because I would

24 have been killed had I done so, had I moved from that

25 spot. So that when he returned, I ran into his jeep

Page 11752

1 and came back to Vitez.

2 Q. And he took you back to Vitez; is that

3 correct? Colonel Stewart himself?

4 A. That is correct.

5 Q. You sat with him in the jeep, did you?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. And I want to ask you again, sir, that was on

8 April 16th, wasn't it, sir, the day after the Totic

9 kidnapping?

10 A. That is not correct. It was on the 15th of

11 April.

12 Q. I put it to you -- by the way, to make this

13 examination easier, may we have Z2781,2, the map.

14 Perhaps we can use ours. Would you put this on the

15 ELMO, please.

16 Now, would you point out for us, sir, Vitez

17 on the map? It's in the lower left-hand side. You can

18 look to your right. It might be easier for you. Did I

19 say it right? I meant left.

20 A. Yes, right. Here is Vitez. Here it is.

21 Q. You had been in Zenica; had you not?

22 A. Yes, that was in the morning, in the morning

23 around 10:00, 10.30. I was in the area where the new

24 and the old Zenica have a boundary, and the units had

25 already taken positions and did not let anyone cross.

Page 11753

1 I managed to get across and arrive in Sljivcica where

2 the fighting had already begun.

3 Q. All right. So you had been to Zenica and you

4 were travelling down the mountain road, were you not,

5 to try to get back to Vitez?

6 A. To Vitez.

7 Q. And you were stopped in Poculica?

8 A. Yes, that is correct.

9 Q. That is when you first saw Colonel Stewart

10 drive by; correct?

11 A. That is correct.

12 Q. He was coming from Vitez to Zenica, right?

13 A. Yes, from Vitez to Zenica. That is correct.

14 Q. And then, according to you, he picked you up

15 on the way back and drove you to Vitez, right?

16 A. Yes, that is correct.

17 Q. You say that was on the 15th of April, the

18 day that --

19 A. Whether that was 15, 14 or 16, but it was on

20 the very day when Zivko Totic was arrested, and I don't

21 know when that was. I would like to request to ask me

22 as little as possible about the dates and days, because

23 those dates and those days I did not follow closely and

24 I was not interested in that. But I know the facts.

25 Zivko Totic had been arrested there, Colonel Stewart

Page 11754

1 flew over to Zenica to intervene on that. A couple of

2 hours later he drove back. He picked me up and three

3 or four -- about three or four hours back in Vitez.

4 Q. Fine, sir. Let me put it to you that Colonel

5 Stewart in his statement to the Office of the

6 Prosecutor --

7 JUDGE MAY: Well, this isn't going to assist,

8 I suggest. Now we've spent quite a time on this. No

9 doubt, the date can be established one way or another.

10 What's the point?

11 MR. STEIN: My point is this, sir. According

12 to Colonel Stewart, he stayed overnight in Zenica on 15

13 April, returned on 16 April, and so, according to the

14 witness's testimony and dovetailing that to the

15 Colonel's diary, Colonel Stewart picked this man up on

16 16 April at -- before 9.00 in the morning.

17 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Whichever day it was,

18 the witness says that he can't remember the dates

19 precisely.

20 MR. STEIN: Yes, sir.

21 JUDGE MAY: Whichever date it was, what

22 arises from it?

23 MR. STEIN: What arises from it is allegedly

24 he heard on the night of April 15, 16, in the early

25 hours, conversations with Mr. Kordic and others

Page 11755

1 relative to some plan. We dispute that, and indeed it

2 is our position that he was not in Vitez or in the

3 surrounds on 15 April. He did not get back to Vitez

4 until 16 April.

5 JUDGE MAY: "He" being?

6 MR. STEIN: "He" being the witness.

7 JUDGE MAY: The witness.

8 MR. STEIN: And again, for the record, and I

9 think the record is plain on this, the Totic kidnapping

10 occurred on 15 April in the early morning hours.

11 A. May I now answer this?

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes, you can answer if you want.

13 A. First of all, it is not correct that

14 Mr. Stewart went from Zenica to Vitez. Colonel Stewart

15 went to Zenica in the morning. I was in a canal and I

16 asked him. And he said, "I will pick you up on the way

17 back." Three or four hours later he came back. And

18 again I claim, and I can state under oath, that it was

19 correct that not even three hours had passed between

20 his going to Zenica and his return, because I helped

21 him, when he was going from Vitez to Zenica, I helped

22 him clear the mines which were in the middle in

23 Sljivcica, and on the way back he picked me up.


25 Q. Sir, regardless of that, would you turn,

Page 11756

1 please, to your statement given to the ICTY on March

2 4.

3 JUDGE MAY: Let us have a copy, please.

4 MR. STEIN: Yes. Here you are, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE MAY: Do you want this exhibited,

6 Mr. Stein?

7 MR. STEIN: No, it's just for Your Honour's

8 edification.

9 Q. Turning to page 5 of the English, and that

10 would be page --

11 THE INTERPRETER: May the interpreters get a

12 copy or have the document placed on the ELMO, please.

13 MR. STEIN: We have extra copies for the

14 interpreters. Page 4 of the Croatian, and maybe we

15 could put it on the ELMO, although we will give the

16 interpreters a copy at the break.

17 Q. Follow along in your own statement, sir. It

18 would be about the last -- next to last full

19 paragraph. It says here:

20 "About ten days after joining the Vitezovi,

21 I, together with two Vitezovi scouts sent by Darko

22 Kraljevic to Zenica, to gather intelligence about the

23 Armija BiH. I spent about three days in Zenica to

24 perform the job. I started back to Dubravica, Vitez,

25 the same day when Zvonko Totic was taken prisoner and

Page 11757

1 his bodyguards were killed. It was, I think, April 14,

2 1993. However, I could not make it beyond Cajdras, as

3 I learned that shooting had broken out between the

4 Vitezovi and those who were defending the Muslim

5 village of Poculica from the assailant Vitezovi."

6 I'll skip the next sentence. Then it says:

7 "Getting to Cajdras at about 4.00 in the

8 afternoon on April 15, I was stranded there until about

9 10.00 or 11.00 at night the same day. I spent the time

10 at the church building in the Cajdras village. I had

11 already sent two scouts across to Vitez through the

12 woods and over the hills. In the evening of April 15,

13 1993, I set out from Cajdras towards Poculica on my way

14 to Dubravica. As I neared the upper part of Poculica

15 called Sljivcica, where a mosque is situated, I could

16 see grenades being fired."

17 I am going to skip a couple of lines because

18 I want to get to the important thing:

19 "I hid myself in a ditch near the road so

20 that I would not be hit by a bullet. Fearing that I

21 may be hit, I took out a paper and wrote, 'In case I am

22 found dead, not killed by Bosnian Armija, but a stray

23 bullet.' I spent a night in the ditch. The next day

24 was, I think, April 15.

25 At about 10.00 in the morning on April 15,

Page 11758

1 1993, I saw an UNPROFOR patrol approaching from the

2 direction of Vitez to Zenica."

3 And then the rest of the paragraph, sir,

4 talks about Colonel Stewart clearing mines and then

5 goes on to say:

6 "By 2.00 in the afternoon the UNPROFOR patrol

7 returned and I was taken to Vitez. I went to the

8 barracks."

9 Sir, again I put to you that Colonel Stewart,

10 in his statement to the investigators of the ICTY, as

11 well as in his contemporaneous journal, says that he

12 spent the night in Zenica on 15 April and returned

13 early in the morning hours of 16 April 1993.

14 Therefore, sir, I say to you, you could not

15 have been at the headquarters in Dubravica on the night

16 of 15 April and the early morning hours of 16 April.

17 A. It is absolutely impossible, but neither did

18 I sleep in the ditch. I spent about three to four

19 hours in the ditch. And it is absolutely impossible

20 that he could have picked me up in the morning. He

21 could only have picked me up, even if it was 1.00 p.m.,

22 but it would have been impossible to -- it to have been

23 in the morning, because I started out in the morning

24 after 10.00 a.m. from Zenica in the direction of

25 Vitez. I arrived at Sljivcica where fierce shooting

Page 11759

1 had already broken out. I had to hide in this ditch,

2 and I spent there three to four hours. And even that

3 is too long.

4 But let's say it was four hours. And

5 Mr. Stewart on that very same day went to Zenica and

6 came back from Zenica. I can state that with -- and

7 take full responsibility for it.

8 Because the next day I realised that down

9 there, when I went down to the bakery, which was

10 across -- there was a ramp there with the soldiers, the

11 HVO soldiers. That morning they had left the

12 positions. I did not find them there. And that day

13 was when the war took place, and that was on the 16th

14 of April.

15 Q. Your Honour, I don't want to debate this

16 issue. When Colonel Stewart testifies next week, we

17 will point him out -- point the Colonel to his ICTY

18 statement at page 5 for these issues.

19 Now, sir, do I take it that you contend that

20 as an IPD officer you had the rank of lieutenant; is

21 that right?

22 A. Yes, that is correct.

23 Q. These were informal ranks, were they not?

24 A. Yes. At that time they were not official

25 ranks. The people were given promotions on the basis

Page 11760

1 of your rank. I was counted as a lieutenant and so I

2 was a lieutenant. And later on the late Franjo Tudjman

3 verified this rank in order for it to be officially

4 recognised.

5 Q. Your Honours, on this issue, without debating

6 it, I again would point Your Honours to the record of

7 Mr. Tuka's testimony on November 22nd, 1999, day 89,

8 line 16 through 17, that there were no ranks. And

9 Witness "Z."'s testimony on December 6, 1999, day 99, at

10 line 81, in a conversation with Blaskic she had again

11 stated there were no official ranks.

12 If this is a convenient time, it is for me,

13 Judge.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we'll adjourn. Mr. Breljas,

15 we are going to adjourn now for the lunch adjournment

16 until half past 2.00. Could you remember in this

17 adjournment, and any others there may be, not to speak

18 to anybody about your evidence until it's over. And of

19 course don't let anybody speak to you about it. And

20 that does include the members of the Prosecution.

21 Could you be back, please, at half past

22 2.00.

23 THE WITNESS: I understood your direction.

24 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1 p.m.


Page 11761

1 --- On resuming at 2.34 p.m.

2 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Stein, there's just one

3 matter I want to ask the legal officer. Yes, thank

4 you.

5 MR. STEIN: Thank you, sir.

6 Q. Mr. Breljas, there are a couple of things

7 from this morning's testimony in the response to

8 questions from the Prosecutor that I want to clear up.

9 Would you please have in front of you the November 7,

10 1996 statement that you gave. Do you have that in

11 front of you?

12 A. I believe so.

13 Q. It looks like this. It looks like this.

14 A. Yes, I have it.

15 Q. Now, this morning you told us that at the end

16 of March 1993 you met Dario Kordic in Tisovac outside

17 of Busovaca and you asked him whether he could give you

18 an assignment within the HVO forces, and that's at page

19 19 of the LiveNote. Yet, I want you to take a look at

20 your November 7, 1996 statement at the first -- I'm

21 sorry, the third full paragraph after the word

22 "Statement," and you tell the public officials in 1996

23 that: "It was only on 17 February 1993, after a couple

24 of attempts, that I managed to reach Kiseljak. Upon my

25 arrival in Kiseljak, I spent seven days in a barracks,

Page 11762

1 and since I made reference to my acquaintance with

2 Dario Kordic, I think the people in charge of the

3 barracks informed him, so that on 1 March 1993 I was

4 assigned to RR wartime duties in the Vitezovi Special

5 Task Force PPN in Vitez."

6 In fact, sir, you didn't meet Mr. Kordic at

7 all in terms of getting an assignment to join the HVO;

8 isn't that true?

9 A. No, it is not true. It is true that I had a

10 very hard time getting out because I wanted to go to

11 Sarajevo. I knew that the HOS was not fighting against

12 the BH army. It is quite true that I came and that for

13 awhile I was in the Vitezovi barracks, not some other

14 barracks but the Vitezovi barracks. At that time, I

15 was just a plain civilian, an ordinary civilian. I was

16 lying in a room, and then after that, I went and saw

17 Mr. Dario Kordic.

18 I cannot claim with any certainty that Dario

19 Kordic would remember me from before, but I did to

20 begin with because I am a photographer in a photograph

21 shop, his pictures were developed, and then the second

22 time I saw him, it was in 1992 -- or 1989, rather, on

23 St. Anthony's Day. He delivered a speech in Busovaca

24 next to the St. Anthony's church.

25 Q. Let me be more clear. You, of your own

Page 11763

1 personal information or knowledge, do not know whether

2 or not Dario Kordic in any way helped you get into the

3 HVO; isn't that true?

4 A. Yes, he did help me, sure he did, because he

5 determined which direction I should take.

6 Q. You don't know of your own personal knowledge

7 whether he made any calls on your behalf, wrote any

8 letters on your behalf. All you know is he said, "Go

9 out --"

10 A. That, I don't know.

11 Q. All right. All you know is he basically went

12 off and said, "Go see Darko Kraljevic"; correct?

13 A. Yes, it is. It is. That is correct.

14 Q. Now, one other thing I was confused by,

15 Mr. Lopez-Terres asked you whether your date of birth

16 was 16 January, 1940. Is that your date of birth?

17 A. No. The 18th of January. He said "19th" and

18 I tried to rectify it but I had no time. The 18th of

19 January, 1940.

20 Q. I thought earlier this morning you told us

21 you were born in April of 1940.

22 A. Excuse me, sir, but you couldn't hear it from

23 me. Not 1944, 1940.

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes, 1940 was the date which I

25 heard.

Page 11764

1 MR. STEIN: Yes, the 1940 we don't quibble

2 with, Your Honour. It's the April versus January issue

3 that I'm looking at now.

4 JUDGE MAY: Well, the witness probably can

5 give the best evidence of that.

6 MR. STEIN: Yes.

7 Q. At page 18 of the LiveNote, we have "18

8 April." So my question again, sir: What is your date

9 of birth?

10 A. You could not find that, because what I know,

11 and I know it from my early childhood, the 18th of

12 January, 1940, one day after St. Ante Pavelic. I hope

13 I've explained it now.

14 Q. Take a look at the document that's in front

15 of you, the 7 November 1996 record. That shows your

16 personal identification number is "16-01-1940," and

17 then there's some other numbers. Sir, you and I both

18 can agree that "16-01-1940" is to be the 16th day of

19 January, 1940; isn't that right?

20 A. It is right. In 1996, when I came to

21 Sarajevo, it is quite true, and that is why I requested

22 that it be rectified. I went there and asked them to

23 do that, and they said, "Oh, yes, of course, we shall

24 change it." But that was an error, I had it in my

25 identity card, and in a way I thought that perhaps it

Page 11765

1 was a deliberate error so that I would have to come

2 again to fetch my identity card -- well, be that as it

3 may, but they couldn't find it anywhere because even my

4 personal number said "18" rather than "16," at least

5 that is how it was before the war. Now, I don't know,

6 because as of 1991, everybody did as he pleased. So I

7 just don't know now.

8 Q. Well, as of 1998, your personal

9 identification number was also "16-01-1940" and then

10 some other numbers identical to that which is in your

11 November 7 statement; isn't that correct, sir? Take a

12 look at the official note from February 16, 1998.

13 You'll see it right in the first paragraph.

14 A. That, I do not have to look at because I was

15 regularly registered in two places. In Dubrovnik, that

16 is one, and all the original documents are with me. My

17 Dubrovnik identity card and my Dubrovnik driving

18 license and my passport say the 18th of January, 1940,

19 and my personal number is 18-01-1940. These are, yes,

20 the first numbers of one's personal number.

21 Q. Let's move along, sir. The duties of the IPD

22 officers were to take care of prisoners; correct?

23 A. No, not only that. I did that along with

24 some other jobs. I had different duties at the PPN

25 Vitezovi because Dragan Vinac did not want me to accept

Page 11766

1 some soldiers who were his bosses before the war. So

2 that I looked after the prisoners of war and after

3 soldiers and I did all sorts of things, and I really

4 think I had to play the jack of all trades there.

5 Q. All right. I didn't mean to say that was

6 your only duty. My point is IPD officers, as I

7 understand from your statement and testimony, were in

8 charge of prisoners; they were liaisons with the

9 various other military units; they were in charge of

10 logistics; and they were also in charge of the general

11 education of soldiers and morale; is that correct?

12 A. No, it is not. IPD officer was responsible

13 only for deciding on what kind of a soldier one was,

14 whether the soldiers had carried out an order wrong,

15 whether they behaved correctly or not, and things like

16 that. An IPD officer had to have a board and say:

17 This such and such soldier has committed this and that

18 mistake; such and such officer has committed this kind

19 of error. That was the official IPD's duty. And other

20 IPD's has nothing to do with that, about prisoners.

21 All they could say was whether the prisoners were

22 treated properly or not. They did not have any other

23 men. I was there. I was with Medecins Sans Frontieres

24 because I could speak English, and I interpreted there

25 and I did that. But that was not my duty.

Page 11767

1 An IPD officer was there to say whether

2 soldiers were properly behaving themselves and about

3 the status of prisoners. That was all, normally.

4 Q. Well, sir, with respect, the IPD officers

5 also dealt with the morale of each of the units; isn't

6 that correct?

7 A. Yes, it is.

8 Q. And you sensitised the soldiers to the Geneva

9 Conventions; did you not?

10 A. Not soldiers, because soldiers could not

11 understand it. But, yes, with some soldiers, yes, I

12 told them.

13 Q. Sir, I don't want to be picky about this, but

14 if you take a look at your statements given to the

15 officers and agents of the ICTY on page 15, the third

16 paragraph from the top:

17 "Within the units IPD officers were

18 responsible for the general education and instruction

19 of the soldiers in the units. An IPD officer would

20 instruct a soldier in his responsibilities in the

21 combat, his conduct towards others and sensitise them

22 to the Geneva Conventions. IPD officers and units were

23 also responsible for receiving orders from the IPD

24 officer of the military district office and to impart

25 the instructions contained in those orders to the

Page 11768

1 soldiers of the units. I also dealt with issues

2 concerning morale."

3 That was your statement to the Tribunal

4 investigators in 1998. Do you agree with that or

5 disagree with that?

6 A. That is what I just told you.

7 Q. Now, from that description, can we agree that

8 the IPD officers were military officers?

9 A. Yes, military officers.

10 Q. They weren't political officers; isn't that

11 correct?

12 A. They were a bridge between the military and

13 the politicians. They were that bridge who from -- who

14 were bridged over the distance, the gap between the

15 political circles and military circles.

16 Q. Your IPD officers and yourself certainly had

17 no say in political decisions; isn't that right?

18 A. Quite correct. Only transmission of

19 political messages.

20 Q. Any orders that came to the IPD officers came

21 from military superiors; isn't that right?

22 A. Yes, it is.

23 Q. The IPD officers met weekly with the head of

24 the IPD for the military district; correct?

25 A. It is.

Page 11769

1 Q. On several occasions, in fact, you met with

2 Colonel Blaskic as commander of the district; correct?

3 A. I did. I was really pestering him. I was

4 badgering him by telephone, because I wanted to keep

5 him informed about certain things.

6 Q. We'll get to that in a little while. My

7 point is, sir, when the IPD officers met weekly,

8 occasionally Colonel Blaskic himself would arrive?

9 Yes?

10 A. No, never.

11 Q. He would send his IPD officer to these

12 meetings; correct?

13 A. Yes. It was always his IPD officer who was

14 there. I mean, he would chair such meetings.

15 Q. Dario Kordic never attended any of these IPD

16 meetings; correct?

17 A. He did not, no.

18 Q. Now, as I understand again from your

19 statement to the ICTY investigators, your unit was

20 organised with three lieutenants, one captain, three

21 majors and one colonel; isn't that right?

22 A. That was in the early days. When I was

23 there, there were two colonels, three majors, two

24 Captains, four lieutenants. And there were several

25 sergeants, I don't know how many, five, six perhaps.

Page 11770

1 Q. In any event, whether it was earlier or

2 later, all of these officers or all of these ranks were

3 military ranks; correct?

4 A. Quite.

5 Q. And they all had military duties; correct?

6 A. It is.

7 Q. And Darko Kraljevic appointed you as the IPD

8 officer because of your English literacy; correct?

9 A. Among other things. And also because I was

10 the eldest there, that is, I was 22, 24 years senior to

11 the oldest one of the others. And I suppose he

12 realised that. He trusted me, and that was that.

13 Q. Yes. You had his confidence; correct?

14 A. Yes. Because I drew his attention to certain

15 things, to show him how some majors of his were laying

16 traps for him so as to ruin his military career.

17 Q. On the other hand, he would bypass you

18 whenever there were any dirty dealings afoot, because

19 of your principled attitudes; correct?

20 A. It is, and he did it several times. And then

21 -- and then I told him, "Darko, you don't have to

22 bypass me. I'll tell you whether you should do

23 something or shouldn't do something, whether something

24 is ethical or not, but do not listen to everybody,"

25 because I notice there are spies in units. They wanted

Page 11771

1 to ruin him. He was a great name in the Vitez area and

2 he was a good and honest man. Except that he was an

3 unrefined man and he did not have enough imagination,

4 enough education to think of things. But he always

5 performed what he set out to perform.

6 Q. I want to turn our attention, if I can, to

7 the names of the combat units. You mentioned earlier

8 this morning Puma and Wolf and others. Am I correct

9 that you also said at times the names of the combat

10 units would change?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Certainly now, in the year 2000, you wouldn't

13 be able to give us the dates or the name changes as

14 they occurred while you were with the HVO, would you?

15 A. No way. It was temporary. I think the names

16 were changed about two times. I believe Puma's

17 changed. Wolf stayed Wolves 'til the end. And the

18 Puma, I think, and the Foxes changed their names, or

19 perhaps Foxes only. At any rate, I believe units

20 changed about twice and then they would revert to their

21 original name.

22 Q. Fair enough. And you can't help us with what

23 the names of the units were before you joined the

24 Vitezovi, can you?

25 A. I could tell you about three months back, but

Page 11772

1 not before that, because that name they had throughout,

2 I believe ever since the foundation.

3 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, additionally,

4 besides the names of the units, the soldiers themselves

5 had call signs; isn't that true?

6 A. I don't understand that question. What kind

7 of calling signs do you mean?

8 Q. Colonel Blaskic at one point, for instance,

9 his call sign was 21, and his artillery commander was

10 18. Does that remind you of the call signs we are

11 talking about?

12 A. Yes, I see now. Now I understand. Vitezovi

13 were not all that trained to think in that way. They

14 had a somewhat lower rank of communication in their

15 operational work. Say, if one of those squads or

16 something that would get away, they would call Puma 1,

17 Puma 2, or if they split into three groups, it would be

18 Puma 1, 2 and 3. I mean, it was -- after all,

19 Mr. Blaskic was the only strategist who was in Vitez,

20 and he had these things organised in a more

21 sophisticated manner.

22 Q. I don't want to make a big deal out of this.

23 My point being that there were individual soldiers who

24 had individual numbers as their call sign, such as

25 Blaskic, number 21; correct?

Page 11773

1 A. No, those figures, as I told you, during an

2 attack or something like that, of course they would

3 have it. They would have a code name or the figure

4 that was on their Motorolas, for instance, which they

5 used.

6 Q. And those code names and figures changed over

7 time as well; isn't that true?

8 A. Yes, of course. Once I requested and

9 proposed to Colonel Darko Kraljevic: If they did it,

10 they had not done it and had realised it was

11 necessary. That is, if a soldier from that combat

12 group were captured, then this would immediately have

13 to be changed because, naturally, this one, the

14 captured one, would start singing sooner or later.

15 Q. That brings me to my next point. During your

16 tenure with the HVO in Vitez, 1200 members of the HVO

17 Vitez Brigade were killed in 1993; isn't that correct?

18 A. Yeah, well, I don't know how many. The

19 latest information I received was when we were issuing

20 some money to the families of the fatalities, and I had

21 84 families to see and they had 800. So once there,

22 IPD officer Cilic had said, "No problem for you. You

23 have 80 of them," and I said, "Well, it was easy for

24 you because you had 10 younger women who did it for

25 you." And I had to do it all by myself.

Page 11774

1 Q. Let me help you sir. Turning to page 19 of

2 your statement to the ICTY in March of 1998, at the

3 fourth full paragraph. And in the Croatian version it

4 would be on page 16, and it would be the last

5 paragraph. About midway through the paragraph:

6 "1200 members of the Vitez HVO brigade had

7 been killed in the course of 1993. I know that at some

8 time, when I received assistance for the bereaved

9 families of 180 dead soldiers of Vitezovi, while Zvonko

10 Cilic, brigade IPD officer, received similar assistance

11 for the 1200 soldiers of the brigade who had fallen in

12 fight."

13 A. That is not true. I never said that

14 anywhere. All I said was that we had been given the

15 same amount that we were then to give, and it was 50

16 marks. I never said it -- he was issued the same

17 amount of money. It was per soldier, the same amount

18 per soldier, the same kind of money that I would pay to

19 my soldiers.

20 Q. Sir, it's a very simple point. 1200 soldiers

21 had fallen; are you denying that? Are you denying you

22 said that? Take a look at your Croatian version on

23 page 16, last paragraph.

24 A. I cannot tell you, because I do not know how

25 many fell. According to him, he had 800 fatalities.

Page 11775

1 And I wasn't there, I wasn't a political officer with

2 them to have the list of their killed. I had the list

3 of mine killed, so I can say how many men were killed

4 with us; that it wasn't 880 but, rather, 984, to be

5 precise.

6 Q. All right, sir. In any event, let's take

7 another point you made during your direct examination.

8 And that was relative to the relationship between Dario

9 Kordic and Darko Kraljevic. You never heard Darko

10 Kraljevic get an order from Dario Kordic; isn't that

11 right?

12 A. That is right.

13 Q. You never read an order from Darko Kraljevic

14 -- I'm sorry, from Dario Kordic to Mr. Kraljevic,

15 correct?

16 A. I only heard a telephone conversation once

17 about something. I can't tell what it was about, but

18 he did speak to Mr. Dario Kordic.

19 Q. So Kraljevic spoke to Kordic once, a

20 conversation you couldn't hear, and from that you

21 concluded that Kordic gave orders to Kraljevic; is that

22 correct?

23 A. He couldn't give orders to Kraljevic, he

24 could just inform him about something that needed to be

25 done, and Kraljevic was the one who gave orders.

Page 11776

1 Kraljevic could not be given orders, that is common

2 knowledge.

3 Q. So regardless of what the relationship was

4 between Kraljevic and Kordic, Kraljevic did not take

5 orders from Kordic, military orders from Kordic; is

6 that right?

7 A. I cannot say that he did or he did not. In

8 my judgement and according to my knowledge, he carried

9 out operations which only Kordic could have conceived.

10 Now, whether he gave him orders or not, whether they

11 met -- I know he went to Busovaca. Whether he went to

12 see Kordic or someone else, I don't know. I didn't see

13 them meet, but the operations that were carried out

14 could only have been planned by Dario Kordic and no one

15 else at that time.

16 Q. And you conclude that without ever seeing a

17 piece of paper or hearing a direct order or plan; isn't

18 that right?

19 A. A piece of paper in the area of Vitez until

20 sometime around the 15th of July, 1993, no one issued

21 to anyone nor paid any attention to. There were just

22 oral orders, instructions. There was a total split, a

23 disunity within the military. Everyone did whatever

24 they wanted.

25 Q. Sir, let me try it a different way. You

Page 11777

1 said, in your judgement and according to your

2 knowledge, Kraljevic carried out operations which only

3 Kordic could have conceived. Do you have any facts on

4 which you can base this conclusion?

5 A. I do. The first fact is that Darko Kraljevic

6 was the protector of 30 Muslim families and he

7 protected them against everyone. No one could touch

8 them.

9 Secondly, whenever I spoke to Darko

10 Kraljevic, he never conceived of any operation that

11 would be done in such a way, that we would attack from

12 this side or that, but he always had the final act. He

13 was just the perpetrator, the person who executed a

14 certain operation, but not the person who conceived it

15 or strategically organised it. He never did that,

16 ever.

17 Q. Is that it?

18 A. That is it, yes.

19 Q. All right. Let me turn your attention to

20 something else. In December of 1993, specifically 22

21 December through 24 December, there was a major

22 offensive in Krizancevo Selo; isn't that correct, sir?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And the Muslims cut through the Croat lines;

25 correct?

Page 11778

1 A. Yes. Yes.

2 Q. Seventy Croats were killed at least; right?

3 A. No, that is not correct. Not more than 30

4 soldiers were killed on the outside. But five of

5 them -- three were killed in a traffic accident when a

6 commander of the Vitez Brigade, a lower level

7 commander, was driving two members of the Vitezovi in a

8 Mercedes, they turned over and they were killed in a

9 traffic accident, and then again Krizanac and maybe

10 some ten or so soldiers. So all in all, there were not

11 more than 30 people killed.

12 Q. In any event, whether there were 30 or 70,

13 Colonel Blaskic immediately arrived in the area and

14 stayed in the Lasva Valley until January 1st, 1994;

15 correct?

16 A. Colonel Blaskic was not in the Vitez

17 district. He was in Mostar at the time.

18 Q. You're saying he did not arrive in the Lasva

19 Valley at the end of December 1993?

20 A. No. I have evidence to prove that.

21 Q. Now, you claim that Mr. Kordic was seen by

22 you poring over some military orders right around this

23 time; correct?

24 A. I didn't see him issuing orders. I saw him

25 debating with the commander of the Vitez Brigade over a

Page 11779

1 map. I never said that he issued orders because

2 Colonel Kordic did not have the military expertise to

3 be able to issue orders. He just collected information

4 from zonal commanders and he drew on their expertise

5 and on their knowledge to say okay. He had no military

6 knowledge personally.

7 Q. You indicated to the folks at the ICTY that

8 Mr. Kordic fashioned himself a colonel; isn't that

9 correct?

10 A. That is how we called him. He was a

11 colonel. He was a colonel because there was no higher

12 rank than colonel in that military district.

13 Q. Well, you told specifically the officers of

14 the ICTY, at page 22 of your statement to them, page 19

15 at the Croatian, at the top of the page, first

16 paragraph: "Despite his camouflage military-fashioned

17 attire and despite the fact that Kordic fancied styling

18 himself as a colonel, he was an ignoramus in military

19 matters"; correct?

20 A. That is correct, yes.

21 Q. Indeed, during this particular period of

22 time, you point to the episode that you talked about on

23 direct examination and you give an example of Kordic

24 going over a map with the group commanders, and you

25 say: "I saw Kordic conferring with some combat group

Page 11780

1 commander over a map. The commander was trying to

2 explain how he was going to counterattack. One could

3 see that Kordic was completely out of his depth and did

4 not have many intelligent questions to ask. 'Okay.

5 Okay. Go ahead' was his perfunctory response."

6 You told that to the members of the ICTY; did

7 you not?

8 A. Yes, and that is correct. That is what I

9 have been saying just now. I repeat the same, that he

10 was conferring with him, and when this one explained to

11 him -- I knew this person too up to a point, and though

12 I thought it was all wrong, and this attack on

13 Krizancevo Selo was not an attack in the proper sense,

14 it was in response to a challenge, because before that

15 when Colonel Blaskic went to Mostar --

16 Q. None of that is my point. My point is simply

17 this: Mr. Kordic, although he was given the title of

18 colonel, in your opinion was not a military man; isn't

19 that right?

20 A. He was a military person because there was no

21 one else. He was the most respected person in the

22 military district of Vitez, and he performed those

23 duties.

24 Q. Well, sir, he didn't give you any military

25 commands, did he?

Page 11781

1 A. Of course not. I was so small, I was so far

2 below him that I couldn't receive orders from him.

3 Q. And you, of your own personal knowledge, have

4 no evidence that he gave a military command to anyone;

5 isn't that correct?

6 A. He headed the operation against Krizancevo

7 Selo.

8 Q. That's it? That's the only evidence that you

9 have of him issuing a military command, that he was in

10 the command post poring over maps?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. All right. Now, when you wanted salaries for

13 your men, you didn't go to Dario Kordic to get

14 salaries, did you?

15 A. Well, you see, I did want to go to see him

16 when I got to Posusje, but he was the person who could

17 do it.

18 Q. Well, sir, with respect, turning to your ICTY

19 statement, at page 17, at the bottom, third paragraph

20 from the top -- I'm sorry, third paragraph from the

21 bottom, and that would be on the Croatian at page 14,

22 you say: "In my request for Vitezovi soldiers'

23 salaries, I next approached Lieutenant-General Milivoj

24 Petkovic. He was kind enough to respond immediately to

25 the situation and ordered that sums amounting to two

Page 11782

1 unspecified months' salaries be given to me according

2 to the list that I had prepared."

3 Do you remember going to Lieutenant-General

4 Petkovic? That's at page 15 of your statement in

5 Croatian.

6 A. First of all, this was not when I was in

7 Vitez. This was after I had left Vitez. I went to

8 Posusje because Colonel Darko Kraljevic had received

9 some salaries, and our salaries were suspended for a

10 whole year because we were surrounded, so each one went

11 individually to pick them up. I didn't go directly to

12 see Mr. Petkovic. I first looked for the defence

13 minister, who was Mr. Soljic at the time, I wanted a

14 meeting with him. It took me 15 days to reach him. I

15 had a list of 420 men, and I never saw more than I

16 don't know how many --

17 Q. The issue is, to get salaries for your men,

18 you went to Soljic and you went to Colonel Rupcic and

19 then finally to Lieutenant-General Petkovic; isn't that

20 correct?

21 A. Yes, correct.

22 Q. Indeed, as I understand it, again from your

23 statement to the ICTY, Kraljevic specifically had you

24 go to Kordic's press conferences and heckle him, ask

25 strange questions, did he not?

Page 11783

1 A. He didn't tell me that in reference to Kordic

2 but rather to Blaskic, that I should try to provoke

3 Blaskic.

4 Q. Well, take a look at your statement to the

5 ICTY at page 35 in the English, third paragraph from

6 the bottom, the Croatian version would be page 31: "I

7 would regularly attend the weekly press conferences

8 that were held on every Friday. I attended the press

9 conferences through 1993 after I joined Vitezovi.

10 Darko Kraljevic had told me to attend the conferences

11 and to heckle Blaskic, Kordic, and the others as much

12 as I could. Darko Kraljevic was elated when I would

13 irk Blaskic and Kordic or others in the press

14 conferences. Every time I would score a good point

15 with them, and subsequently the conferences would be

16 broadcast on the television, I would receive a bottle

17 of whiskey and cigarettes from Darko. 'My IPD is

18 shagging them well' he once remarked."

19 That's what you told the ICTY when you

20 chatted with them for eight days; isn't that correct?

21 A. Yes, that is correct, but this applied mostly

22 to Mr. Blaskic. Though sometimes even when Valenta was

23 there and if I managed to heckle him, he was glad, but

24 he never said anything about Kostroman. And he liked

25 to address questions to Mr. Kordic, but it was

Page 11784

1 Mr. Blaskic that he aimed at most with these

2 questions.

3 Q. You talked with the Prosecutor about military

4 discipline and military courts, and I want to turn your

5 attention to that. There was, in fact, a military

6 prosecutor established in June of 1993; isn't that

7 right?

8 A. Yes, a court and a prosecutor, yes.

9 Q. And there were four judges appointed as

10 well.

11 A. I really couldn't tell. I know that there

12 were three. I don't know about the fourth. I know

13 there was a public prosecutor, his assistant, and three

14 judges. Whether there were three or four, I'm not

15 sure. I don't know.

16 Q. I won't quibble with that. They were located

17 at the civil police station building in Vitez; is that

18 right?

19 A. Well, you see, I really don't know. It's a

20 long building. At one end was the civilian police, but

21 what was at the other end, I don't know. But in any

22 event, it was in the same building as the civilian

23 police.

24 Q. All right. The officers in your brigade had

25 powers to punish. For instance, you could give two

Page 11785

1 days' detention for violations, could you not?

2 A. That was done only by the late Mr. Plavcic,

3 and it wasn't for disorderly behaviour but because they

4 brought guns from Rostovo. I wanted nicely, in a

5 humane way, to transfer the Vitezovi under the command

6 of Blaskic, but they appointed their own men to do this

7 forcefully, by force, to force them there, and these

8 people from Rostovo brought over quite a number of

9 rifles, more than 30 of them, several thousand bullets,

10 and of course I --

11 Q. Sir, with respect, that's really not my

12 point. My point is: You, as a commander, could give

13 two days' detention for violations; yes or no?

14 A. In theory, yes, but nobody would do as I

15 would tell them if I did.

16 Q. And Darko Kraljevic could give 30 days'

17 detention or forward a military violation to Colonel

18 Blaskic if it was a serious one; isn't that correct?

19 A. Darko Kraljevic, in the case of a serious

20 infringement, would simply take a gun and kill the

21 person, which he in fact did on two occasions.

22 Q. My question, sir, is under the military

23 courts and under the military rules Kraljevic was

24 entitled to detain somebody for 30 days or forward that

25 individual to Blaskic for further punishment; yes or

Page 11786

1 no?

2 A. Correct, yes.

3 Q. And Blaskic, indeed, could dismiss or give

4 three months detention for those serious violations;

5 isn't that right? Dismiss the soldier I should say.

6 A. I beg your pardon, sir, because I cannot

7 answer this. You are talking about peacetime rules.

8 Wartime rules are a completely different case. If what

9 I am commanded decides to execute a soldier, he has the

10 right to do so.

11 Q. Sir, again, turning to your ICTY statement at

12 page 28, the second paragraph from the bottom, page 25

13 of the Croatian version, the first full paragraph at

14 the top:

15 "As far as powers to discipline and to

16 punish are concerned, my powers to punish the Vitezovi

17 soldiers extended to awarding a maximum of two days

18 detention in the barracks. Darko Kraljevic could award

19 a maximum of one month's detention. If the commander

20 deemed the gravity of the breach or offence in question

21 to be deserving of a greater sentence than one month's

22 detention, then the case file had to be forwarded to

23 the commander of the military district, Tihomir

24 Blaskic, whose powers to punish extended to awarding a

25 maximum of three months' detention beyond which he

Page 11787

1 could forward the case to the military Prosecutor. The

2 commanders also had powers to dismiss delinquent

3 soldiers from their position."

4 That's what you told the ICTY investigating

5 team; isn't that right?

6 A. I am saying again that this was based on the

7 rules applicable when there was no state of war.

8 However, when there is a state of war, the method of

9 punishment changes completely. Because in a state of

10 war you cannot wait for 10 days, 15 days or 20 days.

11 There are situations when you have to punish

12 immediately, and there are other situations when you

13 can wait, so that wartime circumstances differ

14 completely from peacetime circumstances. And I was

15 saying this on the basis of peacetime military rules

16 and regulations.

17 Q. Furthermore, sir, we can agree, can we not,

18 that under the military rules a commander was bound

19 under law to initiate criminal proceedings against

20 soldiers who had been guilty of commission of crimes

21 and to forward the case to the military Prosecutor?

22 A. Yes, he was obliged to do that. Yes, he was

23 under obligation.

24 Q. The military prosecutor was a man named

25 Marinko; isn't that right?

Page 11788

1 A. Marinko, yes.

2 Q. And he was subordinate to Blaskic in rank;

3 isn't that correct?

4 A. Directly.

5 Q. I'm afraid my question probably wasn't

6 clear. Blaskic had a higher rank than Marinko; isn't

7 that right?

8 A. Marinko didn't have a rank. He was the

9 public prosecutor, and every morning he had a meeting

10 with Blaskic to agree on what they would do that day.

11 They had a meeting every day.

12 Q. My point is, in 1993 military discipline was

13 meted out by military personnel either, as you say, in

14 the field or through the system we just talked about;

15 isn't that right?

16 A. You are talking about the second half of 1993

17 and not the first half. In the first half there was no

18 law, there were no rules. People did what they wanted,

19 people killed each other, plundered, looted. But you

20 are talking about the second half, when Colonel Blaskic

21 already had achieved a certain degree of immunity and

22 was proclaimed the commander of the military district.

23 Q. Fair enough. Then during the second half of

24 1993, the process of military discipline was as we just

25 discussed, and it was military discipline handed out by

Page 11789

1 military men on military matters; correct?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. Now, indeed, because of that situation --

4 A. Correct.

5 Q. -- you complained on countless times to the

6 military district IPD officer and to Blaskic, informing

7 them that the soldiers of the Vitezovi would leave the

8 barracks without permission and other kinds of

9 disciplinary actions you wanted to have taken; isn't

10 that right?

11 A. Yes, that is correct. Only when I spoke to

12 Blaskic about this. This was just in conversation.

13 But officially I address his IPD officer.

14 Q. Right. And, in fact, every week you made at

15 least 10 complaints about the misconduct of the

16 Vitezovi soldiers to the IPD officer at the weekly

17 meetings; correct?

18 A. Yes, I may have said 10. Sometimes there was

19 three or four, sometimes five, sometimes 10. It wasn't

20 always 10 complaints. There would have been five or

21 six. Sometimes there were none. Once I didn't submit

22 a report and I was told off because of it. I didn't --

23 I just hadn't had enough time to do it.

24 Q. Indeed, you went to Blaskic dozens of times

25 and explained to him that the Vitezovi soldiers were

Page 11790

1 looting and murdering without any authorisation;

2 correct?

3 A. Not members of the Vitezovi, but individual

4 members of the Vitezovi.

5 Q. I am not sure I understand the difference,

6 sir. Let me turn to your ICTY statement at page 29,

7 next to the last paragraph:

8 "I went to Blaskic dozens of times and

9 explained to him that Vitezovi soldiers were looting

10 and murdering without any authorisation, but to no

11 avail. By the end of the war he would not even consent

12 to see me. Blaskic did not even once punish any of my

13 soldiers, even though I informed him of their bad

14 conduct many times."

15 That was your statement; isn't that right?

16 A. Yes, but only once did he punish Darko

17 Kraljevic. This was sometime in August or September.

18 He asked him as a punishment to bring seven rifles.

19 Darko Kraljevic called me up and asked me to find

20 several rifles and take them to the military district,

21 and I did so.

22 JUDGE MAY: Let me interrupt. We will get on

23 more quickly, Mr. Breljas, if you just listen to the

24 questions and just answer them as quickly as you can.

25 And in that way we'll get through your evidence.

Page 11791


2 Q. Indeed, sir, on December 23rd, 1993, you

3 received an order from General Ante Roso from Mostar in

4 which the General said something to the effect that,

5 "Any soldier found guilty of looting, robbery, raping,

6 burning or causing other damage to the property, would

7 be sentenced to a minimum of five years imprisonment

8 and a maximum of capital punishment." And that would

9 be on page 30 of your Croatian statement, the second

10 full paragraph. Is that correct, sir?

11 A. That is correct. Correct.

12 Q. Just following up on one other thing about

13 the way the military units of yours worked. All orders

14 addressed by Blaskic to the Vitezovi were received by

15 the IPD -- by you as the IPD officer; isn't that right?

16 A. Yes, most of them. The majority were

17 received by me. Perhaps one or two went somewhere

18 else.

19 Q. Now, I want to switch gears a small bit. You

20 were asked by the members of the ICTY investigating

21 group to define a civilian or what is a civilian. You

22 found a difficulty, based on your experiences in 1993

23 with the HVO, to define a civilian; isn't that right?

24 A. Well, yes, to a degree. But excuse me, Your

25 Honours, I cannot but not take into account that you

Page 11792

1 may be blaming me, so I have to take a longer lead in

2 order to explain how I got there.

3 JUDGE MAY: Before we get onto that, is there

4 any relevance in this?


6 Q. Yes. I'll follow it up very quickly, sir,

7 and I'll be much more precise. The defenders of Stari

8 Vitez were both women and children; wouldn't you

9 agree?

10 A. In a way, yes.

11 Q. And, indeed, there were snipers who were

12 women; in fact one was a very good shot, as you

13 described in your statement?

14 A. That was not in Stari Vitez. It was a woman

15 from Zenica who operated in the area of Poculica.

16 Q. All right. Poculica is a Muslim village;

17 correct?

18 A. Yes, that is correct.

19 Q. There were snipers from the Mahala section of

20 Vitez; were there not?

21 A. Yes, that is correct.

22 Q. I want to make sure here, and we are coming

23 towards the end. You were asked specific --

24 specifically asked to send prisoners to dig trenches;

25 isn't that right?

Page 11793

1 A. That is correct.

2 Q. And you simply followed those orders; isn't

3 that right?

4 A. Yes, but not literally. I could explain what

5 I mean by that.

6 Q. Well, according to your statement, you,

7 quote: "Sent 23 prisoners for trench-digging. I was

8 simply following Marinko, Plavcic's order."

9 My question to you, sir, is: In addition to

10 the civilians who were digging trenches, military

11 people were also digging trenches; isn't that right?

12 A. Not the Vitezovi. Not the Vitezovi, that's

13 for sure.

14 Q. Fine. But other units of the military were

15 involved in trench-digging?

16 A. Yes, those military units which were the

17 reserve ones, but not the storm troops. No soldier

18 would use them for that purpose.

19 Q. Now, relative to the judge, who you told us

20 about in your direct examination, you never complained

21 to Kordic about this judge or his confinement; isn't

22 that correct?

23 A. No.

24 Q. But you did complain to Blaskic about it,

25 correct?

Page 11794

1 A. Yes, that is correct.

2 Q. Now, Mr. Lopez-Terres brought up that you

3 were in Canada and had some problems with the law. Let

4 me ask you this: Your first problem with the law was

5 when you had problems with your stepfather who called

6 you an Ustashas --

7 JUDGE MAY: Well, now, Mr. Stein, I wonder

8 how this is going to help the Trial Chamber. It's all

9 a very long time ago.

10 MR. STEIN: Well, it's pure credibility,

11 sir.

12 JUDGE MAY: These events are 20 plus years

13 ago, so I recollect.

14 MR. STEIN: We'll bring them up to current

15 times.

16 JUDGE MAY: I'm not going to stop you, but

17 you need to bear in mind that this is -- please don't

18 interrupt. This is not a jury trial and I don't think

19 we were assisted by what we heard already. Unless

20 there is something specific about this witness which

21 you wish to raise.

22 MR. STEIN: If I may, Judge, I'll be very

23 brief.

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes.


Page 11795

1 Q. Sir, regardless of the tiff you had with your

2 stepfather -- let me direct your attention. You had a

3 tiff with a police officer and left Croatia in 1972;

4 isn't that right?

5 A. Yes, that was during the hot summer that

6 there was a revolution going on in Croatia.

7 Q. Then you went to Canada, where you had the

8 scuffle with the Croat priest and were jailed for three

9 months. Yes?

10 A. I first went to Greece, and then from Greece

11 I went to Canada. And I was in Winnipeg, that took me

12 about six to eight months to get to Winnipeg, and then

13 there in Winnipeg I had an altercation with a priest.

14 Q. Then you were in the United States between

15 1976 and 1981; correct?

16 A. That is correct.

17 Q. Did you use your own name?

18 A. Yes, my own name.

19 Q. Were you given a social security number?

20 A. Yes, and a green card. I believe that it's

21 still somewhere around.

22 Q. Let me ask you as a final question, because

23 I've been curious by this: You, as I understand your

24 testimony, because of your principled attitudes, were

25 disgusted by what you had seen in your tour with the

Page 11796

1 Vitezovi; is that right?

2 A. Yes, because I saw things that are not

3 becoming of the worst rabble, let alone Croatian

4 soldiers.

5 Q. Yet, in 1998 and 1999, you went to the

6 Ministry of Defence of the Federation of

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina to prove your status as a member of

8 the PPN Vitezovi and to get a supplement to your

9 salary; isn't that correct?

10 A. That is not correct. That was not the

11 purpose of my going there, but, rather, to meet with

12 Palavra and to discuss my status. But, as I was

13 contemplating of approaching the ICTY, I wanted to see

14 what they knew about me, if anything.

15 Q. Money was not a topic of discussion at all?

16 A. No.

17 Q. And you are as positive of that as the rest

18 of your testimony?

19 A. What do you mean? I obviously went and asked

20 to be compensated for what I was owed. Of course I did

21 that.

22 Q. So money was part of the conversation, and

23 you were there to be compensated for what --

24 A. It was my money.

25 Q. -- for your work with the Vitezovi; correct?

Page 11797

1 A. That is correct, yes.

2 MR. STEIN: Nothing further.

3 Cross-examined by Mr. Kovacic:

4 Q. Thank you, Your Honour.

5 [Interpretation] Mr. Breljas, good afternoon,

6 my name is Bozidar Kovacic, along with my colleague,

7 Mr. Mikulicic, who is seated left of me, represent the

8 Defence of Mr. Cerkez. And I also have several

9 questions for you. If you could please limit yourself

10 to answering them as briefly as possible. And since we

11 are both speaking the same language, would you please

12 pause before you start answering a question after you

13 have heard it, so that we can proceed in an orderly

14 fashion.

15 A. Very well.

16 Q. Thank you. Mr. Breljas, on several occasions

17 during your evidence you made allusions to your

18 experience, to your knowledge. You said that you had

19 knowledge of the strategic sciences, of the law, and

20 some other areas of expertise. So I will just ask you

21 very briefly about your education and experience.

22 Firstly, you said that you completed your elementary

23 school in Sarajevo; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Then you completed your secondary schooling

Page 11798

1 in Ruma; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Could you tell me what you specialised in?

4 A. I started off with mining, but then I

5 interrupted that because of all this Ustashas business,

6 and then I went and did it through the evening school.

7 Q. So are you saying that this was in Serbia,

8 but that there was a mixed Serbian and Croatian student

9 body, and because of your ethnic belonging you were

10 persecuted?

11 A. Yes. And that also followed me in Sarajevo.

12 Q. Very well. So those were the two technical

13 secondary schools. You did not go to the high school?

14 A. Yes, I did, but I paid for those exams and I

15 did them privately.

16 Q. And then you said that you went to the school

17 for political science in Zagreb. You failed there?

18 A. That is correct.

19 Q. We checked your background and you never went

20 to go to the -- to pass the entrance exams?

21 A. I checked, but they told me that I shouldn't

22 even try.

23 Q. So you didn't even try?

24 A. No. No. I never did.

25 Q. So then you went and did your national

Page 11799

1 service?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. The former JNA?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. What branch of the armed forces were you in?

6 A. I was in the airforce as a driver and I was a

7 personal driver to General Viktor Bubanj and another

8 one.

9 Q. Did you ever get any education of the customs

10 and laws of war?

11 A. No. I did something on my own. I did my own

12 -- those studies of strategy and history. I got a

13 fairly wide knowledge of history, and also I did some

14 military law. That I did on my own because I did not

15 have any financial assistance or my own means to do it

16 formally.

17 Q. After you left the JNA, did you make an

18 arrangement with the Secret Service of the JNA?

19 A. No.

20 Q. You had no contacts with the military Secret

21 Service?

22 A. No.

23 Q. And during your stay abroad?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Very well. Thank you. You told us about the

Page 11800

1 period of the breakup of Yugoslavia, how you came back

2 to Sarajevo, and you never specified where you were for

3 a whole year after the death of Kraljevic.

4 A. This was not in Kiseljak. Blaz Kraljevic was

5 killed after the holiday in August, and I was there in

6 1992, in March, at my mother's birthplace.

7 Q. In other words, you were outside of Bosnia?

8 A. Yes, I was outside of Bosnia.

9 Q. Regarding Blaz Kraljevic, could you just tell

10 us who he was so that everybody knows?

11 A. He was someone who had a large military

12 unit. He fought against the Serbs, he would use the

13 Croatian territory for that, and he was more or less

14 one of the chief commanders of the HOS and he was one

15 of the first who started the war.

16 Q. So we agree that he was with the HOS and that

17 he fought in Herzegovina.

18 A. Yes, and he was killed at Trebinje.

19 Q. Do you know whether Darko Kraljevic, your

20 subsequent commander, was any relation to Blaz

21 Kraljevic?

22 A. No, there was no relation. But his units,

23 Darko Kraljevic's units, were HOS units at first before

24 they became the HVO, and Blaz Kraljevic at that time

25 financed him, supported his unit.

Page 11801

1 Q. In your statements to the ICTY investigators

2 of 1998, which has been referred to a number of times

3 here, you also mentioned the story about Blaz

4 Kraljevic, but there is something which is not quite

5 clear. Were you able to join the HOS units during the

6 period when Blaz Kraljevic was still alive?

7 A. Of course. How else could I have been at

8 Dalj or Vukovar?

9 Q. How about in Herzegovina?

10 A. No, except I came to Dubrovnik and then I

11 stopped.

12 Q. When did you come to Dubrovnik and with what

13 military?

14 A. I was a civilian, in fact, in Kupari, and

15 Blaz Kraljevic was active in that area. Then from

16 there, I went to Trebinje and I believe that was in

17 April or May 1992. I could not tell you exactly.

18 Q. I still am not clear. What was your function

19 there?

20 A. Listen, you know very well that the HOS were

21 broken up until mid 1992, and I was looking for a unit

22 which I would join. I was at Vukovar's, I was in

23 Zagreb with Mr. Karakas whom I told that there was a

24 radio transmitter in Dalj --

25 Q. Very well. Let's leave that alone.

Page 11802

1 A. How shall I leave it alone if you want me to

2 explain something? If you don't want me to, then

3 please don't ask me such a question.

4 I was just an independent soldier, a friend

5 of the Croatian people.

6 Q. You mentioned Mr. Karakas. Who was he?

7 A. Mr. Karakas was one of the deputies of

8 Mr. Spegelj who was the defence minister, one of his

9 assistants. Now, what specifically he was, I don't

10 know, but I reached him.

11 Q. Very well. To clear up any confusion here,

12 are you sure this was Mr. Karakas or Mr. Kikas?

13 A. I'm sure this was Mr. Karakas because people

14 were looking for him and they specifically said

15 "Mr. Karakas".

16 Q. But you parted ways with him too, you were

17 not happy with him.

18 A. I said he wanted me -- I was looking for a

19 type of telephone which I never got.

20 Q. And then what happened?

21 A. I went to Osijek to go to Glavas.

22 Q. And this was 1992?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Now, you mentioned this type of phone. You

25 said that this was -- does that have anything to do

Page 11803

1 with intelligence?

2 A. Listen, I have covered a lot of ground and I

3 have come to know things that I should not have known.

4 My father was killed, and I studied all kinds of

5 sciences so that I would come to -- and I studied a lot

6 to find who I was, where I belonged, criminal sciences,

7 history, and so on.

8 Q. You spoke about ranks, what ranks were used.

9 You said that your commander, Mr. Darko Kraljevic, was

10 a colonel, and we saw a document evidencing that. Do

11 you know whether any ranks existed in the HVO, or more

12 specifically in the Vitez Brigade?

13 A. Yes, they did, but they were not official

14 ranks. Certain commanders of combat groups or some

15 other commanders had patches with ranks, and it would

16 be "123," or "Colonel," "Major," "Lieutenant,"

17 "Captain," whereas we did not. We were just told,

18 "You are a Captain. You are a Lieutenant. You are a

19 Major," but officially, according to the law, only

20 Mr. Tudjman could verify, that is, confirm any ranks.

21 Q. Mr. Breljas, based on what you told us

22 yourself, you must have handled a number of written

23 orders which arrived in your unit, the Vitezovi, from

24 the Central Bosnia Operative Zone command issued by

25 Mr. Blaskic.

Page 11804

1 A. In the latter part of 1993.

2 Q. In any of those orders, did you see that any

3 person there, any addressee, was marked by rank?

4 A. Yes, of course. I wrote a number of orders

5 myself, and I always signed it as Lieutenant Breljas.

6 Q. Mr. Breljas, could you just focus on the

7 question, please. You were referring to the Vitezovi,

8 but I was referring to the documents coming from the

9 Operative Zone and you referred to it as headquarters

10 or the military district. Have you ever seen

11 Mr. Blaskic signing any of his orders and including his

12 rank?

13 A. I never paid any attention. I was not

14 interested in that.

15 Q. Very well. That's an answer too. Could you

16 tell me, did you ever see a written order signed by

17 Mr. Cerkez, who is present here?

18 A. No.

19 Q. You never did? You never had an opportunity?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Did you have any opportunity to hear that

22 anyone addressed Mr. Cerkez by using his rank?

23 A. Yes. I did, for instance.

24 Q. And what was that?

25 A. That was colonel.

Page 11805

1 Q. When was this?

2 A. That was around the 1st of November, 1993.

3 When he came to light the candle, I addressed him, I

4 said, "Colonel, this is your candle."

5 Q. I have to tell you that we've never heard

6 this before.

7 A. I don't know whether you've heard this

8 before, and you couldn't have heard it because you were

9 in Zagreb.

10 Q. You said that this was in November 1993. Let

11 me ask you, before November 1993, did you ever have an

12 opportunity to personally meet with Mr. Cerkez?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When was this, approximately?

15 A. This was when the convoy was stopped; that

16 was the Convoy of Salvation for Tuzla. He was there.

17 Q. And how did you address him then?

18 A. I cannot recall.

19 Q. Very well. That is an answer too.

20 A. I don't know whether I had addressed him at

21 all -- oh, yes, he asked me something and I told him

22 that Darko had arrived. At that time, I was only

23 taking orders from Darko.

24 Q. Very well. We're not going to go into that.

25 But you don't know whether any ranks existed at that

Page 11806

1 time.

2 A. I don't.

3 Q. Can you tell me, please, from your evidence,

4 it would appear that you were given a rank of

5 lieutenant but more importantly a position of the IPD

6 officer about ten days after you joined up.

7 A. Yes, 10, maybe 15, maybe even 20. But I

8 arrived there --

9 Q. At that time, you were a brand new person

10 there in the town of Vitez.

11 A. Yes, absolutely new.

12 Q. Nobody knew you from before?

13 A. No, no one did.

14 Q. Very well. A little later on, you assumed

15 the duties of the logistics officer.

16 A. Yes. When I saw what Jozo Buha was doing,

17 then I threw him out and took over.

18 Q. So did you now carry out two different

19 duties?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So you did other things, like this candle

22 lighting and then doing payrolls, and all this reminds

23 me of something else. So let me ask you: Did the

24 Vitezovi as a unit have an official for the social

25 affairs?

Page 11807

1 A. No. That was only established in the

2 headquarters, this is how I called them, in Vitez

3 later.

4 Q. So the Vitezovi had it in mid 1993?

5 A. No, no, no. This was in the military

6 district of Vitez.

7 Q. How about the subordinate units?

8 A. That was the duty of the IPD officer.

9 Q. Let's go back to another area. In the

10 beginning, when asked by the Prosecutor, you said that

11 you were convicted in Canada, and I was not clear. You

12 were sentenced by a Canadian court, not by -- it wasn't

13 some administrative punishment.

14 A. Yes, it was a Canadian court.

15 Q. Based on the investigation we conducted, we

16 received information that you first came into contact

17 with the Vitezovi unit at the time of the attack on the

18 gas station in Kalem.

19 Firstly, do you recall this incident when the

20 gas station in Vitez was attacked? It was called

21 Kalem.

22 A. Of course I remember.

23 Q. Can we agree that this was on 16 April, 1993?

24 A. No. It was attacked before the 16th of

25 April, but on the 16th of April it was completely taken

Page 11808

1 over.

2 Q. Is it true that during the fighting around

3 this gas station a member of the Vitezovi, whose name

4 was Kozina, shot at you?

5 A. No.

6 Q. It is not correct?

7 A. I was just passing by on the road where the

8 fiercest shooting was going on, and later on he said,

9 "I saw you with a bag on your head. I had you clearly

10 in my sight. I almost killed you. I had a clear shot

11 but I didn't shoot."

12 Q. You said that the attack started before the

13 16th. When you said so, what did you mean?

14 A. Illegally; that is, they were getting ready

15 to take over the station.

16 Q. But what you said, you seemed to have been in

17 Travnik, where you went --

18 A. Not Travnik, Zenica. But I knew that they

19 were getting ready for the attack on the station.

20 Q. You mean before your departure?

21 A. Yes, before my departure, because that was

22 the first feature that was to be taken.

23 Q. Very well. So Kozina almost killed you by

24 mistake, and this is what he told you?

25 A. That's what he told me. He said he had me

Page 11809

1 clearly in his sights.

2 Q. Very well. You said that the Vitezovi then

3 held you or detained you, and it was the first time,

4 they did not know you before then.

5 A. That is not possible because I was an

6 interpreter, I interpreted on that very day.

7 Q. So this is not true. Okay. We're moving

8 on. During your stay in Vitez, did you establish any

9 closer contacts with a woman?

10 A. Yes, of course. I was lodging with a woman

11 called Kata who lived across from Dragan Vinac.

12 Q. Is that Kata Rajic?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you lodged with her?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And you had good relations with her?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You could say that you had an intimate

19 relationship with her.

20 A. I don't have to answer that.

21 Q. And you left there in early 1994, when you

22 left Vitez.

23 A. Yes, in April 1994, the 15th of April, 1994.

24 Q. Did you meet her when you were back in Vitez

25 on two occasions in 1996 and 1997, when you wanted to

Page 11810

1 sort out your rights and in order to receive further

2 compensation?

3 A. Yes, of course.

4 Q. Did you manage to put your name down on those

5 lists which were being compiled in order to get

6 veteran's compensation?

7 A. Yes, and I received two salaries. Because I

8 was not in Vitez, I received from the social affairs

9 office an envelope with those two additional salaries,

10 and these were for 1993. But I did receive those two

11 salary amounts.

12 Q. And besides that, you also tried to get your

13 name enrolled in the rosters drawn up by the BH

14 Federation in order to gain the right to some

15 transformation rights; is that so?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did you succeed in that?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You said that you spent the night at

20 Mrs. Kata Rajic's, that you were put up there, but then

21 you also said that at first, when you arrived in Vitez,

22 you would stay and spend the nights in the school.

23 A. Yes, during the first two months.

24 Q. Do you mean during all that confusion in the

25 early days of the war?

Page 11811

1 A. Yes, yes, yes.

2 Q. It is then that you are in the school.

3 A. Well, I'd always lived in the school, except

4 that I would go to her and she would do my laundry, and

5 I came and went as I wanted. But most of the time I

6 spent in the school, in the barracks.

7 Q. But before that you also stayed with the

8 next-door neighbour of Kata, with a lady called

9 Mrs. Mira Pocrnja.

10 A. Yes, I spent about a fortnight with her and

11 then I moved on to Kata's.

12 Q. Is it true that she threw you out of your

13 house because you inflicted injuries on here?

14 A. Sir, I do not think I'm going to discuss

15 these matters with you because this is none of your

16 concern. It is my personal matter.

17 Q. All right. But you lived there with her?

18 A. I may have and I may have not. None of your

19 business.

20 Q. Is it true that you took photographs of all

21 the members of the Vitezovi, or at least most of them?

22 A. Not true. Not true. Only dead. I only

23 tried to photograph the dead ones, and I took

24 photographs of almost all of the dead so that their

25 parents could have pictures. Two of those who had lost

Page 11812

1 their military cards, I took photographs of two living

2 soldiers just so that they could get their documents

3 right.

4 Q. You became an IPD officer about ten days

5 after you arrived. It was Darko who appointed you.

6 A. It could have been 15 days. Now, deputy IPD,

7 because at that time Mr. Marinko Plavcic, Major Marinko

8 Plavcic, was the chief IPD officer, and I was appointed

9 as his assistant.

10 Q. Right. And it was Darko Kraljevic who told

11 you that, who told you so.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. You did not receive any letter of

14 assignment.

15 A. I don't understand you.

16 Q. I mean, something in writing.

17 A. Well, naturally, I was issued a document as a

18 lieutenant of PPN Vitezovi, an IPD officer, so it was

19 all in writing, and I was issued the same thing from

20 Kostroman in writing from when to when I was there,

21 because Kostroman was the superior commander for the

22 IPD, Mr. Ignac Kostroman.

23 Q. I do apologise. I'm afraid my question was

24 not clear enough. This morning, in the document Z1075,

25 it is the 18th of June, and that was still a wild time,

Page 11813

1 that is, when there were no documents. All of a sudden

2 we see a perfectly formatted document which appoints,

3 designates Colonel Darko Kraljevic as the deputy head

4 of the SIS centre in Central Bosnia.

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. In the beginning, or rather you said 10 or 15

7 days, so it could have been late April or early May

8 that same year, you were appointed as IPD by Darko. At

9 the time of your appointment, or within a few days of

10 that moment, were you issued with a document appointing

11 you?

12 A. Naturally, I automatically got into the staff

13 where Dragan Vinac, Kraljevic, Miso Mijic, majors, and

14 a logistician, Buha, and Shanta [phoen], IPD officer.

15 Q. Yes. I believe you explained it all to us.

16 What I'm asking you is not whether you became a member

17 of the command. You told us that. But were you issued

18 that document appointing you?

19 A. I don't know what you mean. What kind of a

20 document; if I was appointed -- if I am on the list of

21 the command, if I was issued a military document as

22 such. What else?

23 MR. KOVACIC: I have to repeat the question.

24 Q. Witness, will you please look here. Will you

25 please look in this direction. This is a document

Page 11814

1 which was signed by Miso Mijic, who appoints Darko

2 Kraljevic to such and such post, that is deputy head.

3 Were you issued with a similar document whereby Darko

4 Kraljevic appoints you?

5 A. Sir, you are referring to the top most

6 officer, and the most prominent post of Croats in

7 Bosnia, and you want them to issue something to me

8 holding the lowest rank in the army. And of course I

9 wasn't issued it by them. I was issued that by

10 Kostroman. And of course I have this document amongst

11 my documents.

12 Q. What kind of document?

13 A. That Anto Breljas, officer with Vitezovi IPD.

14 Q. He wrote "PD"?

15 A. That's true. So that is his. That is where

16 it comes from, Mr. Kostroman, for Colonel Kostroman,

17 the I am on the files as such and such.

18 Q. But that was later?

19 A. No, that was the confirmation of my

20 appointment.

21 Q. But you don't have anything from the term of

22 appointment?

23 JUDGE MAY: I am now going to interrupt. We

24 have been going around this point, Mr. Kovacic. I

25 understand why. We've now got an answer. It's seven

Page 11815

1 minutes past 4.00 and we would wish, if at all

2 possible, to finish this evidence today. Are you going

3 to be very much longer?

4 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, I was not able to

5 reorganise my notes, my original notes, which I planned

6 for this witness, and with the situation after my

7 colleague's time. So it's difficult to tell, but I

8 guess perhaps an hour and a half, not more than that.

9 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, nobody so far has

10 been an hour and a half, or if so, it hasn't been much

11 longer. We'll adjourn now, but could you please try

12 and shorten things for the morning. The witness has

13 only given evidence for about an hour and a half on

14 both the previous examinations, and he only, I think,

15 mentioned your client once. I may be wrong, but my

16 recollection is that.

17 MR. NICE: May I have a couple of minutes of

18 your time --

19 MR. KOVACIC: If I may just -- certainly,

20 Your Honour, I will do my best and I will restrict

21 myself only to the parts where the witness was

22 referring to my witness. Probably some contra point as

23 well.

24 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Tomorrow morning.

25 Mr. Breljas, could you please be back

Page 11816

1 tomorrow morning at half past 9.00 in order to conclude

2 your evidence. I am sorry, it's not been possible to

3 conclude it today, but we will conclude it tomorrow.

4 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.

5 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to go now.

6 [The witness withdrew]

7 MR. NICE: I just wonder if I could seek some

8 guidance from the Chamber in relation to witnesses

9 either this week or next week. I didn't list next

10 week's witnesses when I first dealt with administrative

11 manners this morning, but for the four days we've got

12 next week, we've got Colonel Stewart, who is not likely

13 to be a particularly short witness. It's been noted

14 that both defendants wanted to be here. We've got the

15 witness who seeks protective measures, who was referred

16 to by an earlier witness -- yes, by Payam Akhavan, you

17 will remember, was coming because of matters raised

18 with him --

19 JUDGE MAY: He should be fairly short.

20 MR. NICE: He should be fairly short. You've

21 got a substantial witness who, I think, is seeking

22 protective measures, but comes, as it were, from the

23 other side of the conflict, was listed from the

24 beginning. And one other fairly short witness. So

25 we've got for next week, for four days, probably enough

Page 11817

1 witnesses for at least three, or three plus of those

2 days, and it may be for all four days. And if the

3 Chamber isn't going to be sitting next week, because of

4 the representations made this morning, I will start the

5 process of cancelling them now, rather than later. If

6 the Chamber is going to be sitting, I want to see if I

7 want to have another witness on standby, given that I

8 forecast the subpoenaed witness won't be turning up and

9 will be dealt with shortly.

10 As to this week, I haven't been able to

11 contact the witness (redacted) -- well, another witness

12 who could give evidence on Wednesday without any

13 controversy, because the defendants are willing for him

14 to give evidence. We haven't been able to raise him by

15 telephone. The Chamber has only -- recently had Beese

16 to look at. The other two witnesses, neither of them

17 are particularly long, but I don't think we will get

18 through both of them tomorrow. They are likely to take

19 us into Wednesday at the very least. And it may be

20 that it would be a prudent course not to try and

21 squeeze another witness in on Wednesday afternoon, when

22 he could, perhaps, not be concluded.

23 And it might be possible to use, say,

24 Wednesday afternoon for arguments about some of the

25 dossiers that have been served, if those arguments can

Page 11818

1 be dealt with by a Chamber of two Judges.

2 JUDGE MAY: I rather doubt that it would seem

3 sensible not to get another witness, I should have

4 thought, unless we could be certain of finishing him.

5 MR. NICE: Very well.

6 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Beese, I think it unlikely,

7 and I speak purely for myself, it's unlikely that we

8 would be prepared to hear him this week or next, given

9 the Defence's argument about time.

10 As for the witnesses for next week, we have

11 not yet resolved that matter, but we will give you an

12 answer as soon as we can.

13 MR. NICE: Thank you very much.

14 MR. STEIN: So with all the shifting around,

15 what is the batting order for this week and next week?

16 JUDGE MAY: No doubt you can be told.

17 MR. NICE: I'll tell him again.

18 JUDGE MAY: Very well, half past 9.00

19 tomorrow, please.

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

21 4.15 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday,

22 the 11th day of January, 2000,

23 at 9.30 a.m.