Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 12604

          1                 Wednesday, 19th January, 2000

          2                 [Open session]

          3                 [The accused entered court]

          4                 [The witness entered court]

          5                 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

          6            THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

          7  Case number IT-95-14/2-T, the Prosecutor versus Dario

          8  Kordic and Mario Cerkez.

          9            JUDGE MAY:  Yes, Mr. Lopez-Terres.

         10            MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

         11  Mr. President, after the discussion we had yesterday

         12  about a document which I wanted to produce, I should

         13  like to say that the Prosecutor envisages to bring back

         14  the witness Morsink because he was the one who turned

         15  the document over to the Prosecutor.  I should like

         16  also to make it clear that this was an annex to the

         17  statement of Mr. Morsink, which was communicated to the

         18  Defence on the 5th of March last year under the

         19  obligation that we have.  If this was not introduced

         20  through Mr. Morsink; that is, on the 8th of October

         21  when this large batch of documents was sent.  This

         22  document was turned over to the Prosecution on the

         23  16th of December last year, among a number of documents

         24  which the Prosecutor intends to produce in this case

         25  still.

Page 12605

          1            As for the testimony of Mr. Morsink, if it

          2  does take place, it is quite clear that Mr. Morsink

          3  will be able to tell us about the document, notably

          4  about its source, because he will know who gave him the

          5  document.  As for the authenticity of the document,

          6  that is another matter which I wish to mention.

          7            It seems to me that it is necessary to insist

          8  on the fact that the authenticity of the document, at

          9  least as the dictionary would say, does not mean that

         10  the quality of the document and the source of the

         11  person to whom it is attributed, but also it means that

         12  the document is truthful that is, that it corresponds

         13  to the truth.  And I should say, therefore, not only in

         14  the strictest sense -- it is authentic not only in the

         15  strictest sense of the word, that is, as to the source

         16  of the document, but also that it contains facts, true

         17  facts.

         18            I should also like to say that the second

         19  question that was raised yesterday will not arise,

         20  because the document was already produced here in the

         21  court by another witness.

         22                 [Trial Chamber confers]

         23            JUDGE MAY:  Mr. Lopez-Terres, the Chamber

         24  will have something to say about this in a moment, but

         25  let us now complete the evidence of this witness, and

Page 12606

          1  at a suitable moment during the day we can mention

          2  possible ways of dealing with it.

          3            Yes.  We have got, I think, to the --

          4            MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] Very

          5  well.  Thank you.

          6            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.  Very well.

          7                 WITNESS:  WITNESS AC [RESUMED]

          8                 [Witness answered through interpreter]

          9                 Examined by Mr. Lopez-Terres:

         10       Q.   Witness AC, in the cinema, as you told us

         11  yesterday, with several hundred other prisoners.  On

         12  the 5th of May, 1993, you were in the cinema, and from

         13  that cinema you were transferred with other persons

         14  such as Mr. Kaknjo, Mr. Batija Sivro, Kadir Dzidic,

         15  Edib Zlotrg, and Enes Surkovic to the chess club and

         16  then to Kaonik near Busovaca, and that was after the

         17  order was issued by General Petkovic to release all the

         18  prisoners.  We shall resume at this point.

         19       A.   I should like to say two things.  First, I

         20  said there was a larger number of prisoners.  There

         21  were over 500 detainees.  Secondly, the release of all

         22  prisoners was concluded earlier.  And after that we

         23  were taken to the chess club, with the clear intention

         24  to then surreptitiously to be transferred to Kaonik,

         25  because in addition to me there were 12 very prominent

Page 12607

          1  men in the group that I was in.

          2       Q.   During your stay in the Kaonik camp, which

          3  lasted until the 14th, or the 15th of May, 1993, did

          4  you get there some information?

          5            MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] I see

          6  there is an objection, even though I have not finished

          7  my question.

          8            JUDGE MAY:  Let's hear the objection.

          9            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, we

         10  have reached the paragraph 58, and I should like to

         11  repeat my objection, which is the same as with regard

         12  to the paragraph that I mentioned yesterday.  That is,

         13  here we see how they arrived at the conclusion.  We do

         14  not see the ground for the conclusion, and the only

         15  thing we see here is the conclusion, rather than the

         16  facts.  So the objection is identical to the ones that

         17  I raised yesterday.

         18            JUDGE MAY:  Mr. Lopez-Terres, if you'd like

         19  to lay the foundation.

         20            MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

         21       Q.   Witness AC, did you have any information

         22  about the source of the decision that was taken to take

         23  you to Kaonik from Vitez at the time when you were to

         24  be freed?

         25       A.   We were secretly transferred by the members

Page 12608

          1  of the HVO military police.  And the source, the origin

          2  of decision is quite clear, because it is indicative of

          3  the responsibility of the military police in this

          4  system of decision-making and the whole hierarchical

          5  structure.

          6       Q.   But do you know from whom did this military

          7  police receive the instructions to transfer you to

          8  Kaonik?  Secondly, from whom did Kaonik receive

          9  instructions to set you free?

         10       A.   We got that information during our stay in

         11  Kaonik, where one Marko -- that is what other HVO

         12  members in the camp called him -- said that Dario

         13  Kordic was behind our transfer to Kaonik, and that we

         14  would possibly be released or exchanged if Dario Kordic

         15  approved such a move.

         16       Q.   So it was following authorisation with a

         17  guard of the camp that you and other detainees received

         18  that information?

         19       A.   Yes.

         20       Q.   And during your detention in Kaonik, you were

         21  subjected to questioning but not to any threats, and

         22  you were not harassed, you were not ill-treated?

         23       A.   Correct.

         24       Q.   On the other hand, you could see that your

         25  fellow detainee, (redacted), after an interview,

Page 12609

          1  returned with a bruised face and that his jacket and

          2  his shoes had been taken away.

          3       A.   Yes, (redacted).

          4  When he came back he was all bruised and he was missing

          5  his shoes and parts of his clothes.

          6       Q.   You were released from the Kaonik camp and

          7  taken back to the cinema in Vitez on the 14th or 15th

          8  of May with the rest of the group that you spoke about,

          9  and you stayed at least one night in the Vitez cinema

         10  before you were set free?

         11       A.   Yes.

         12            MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] I should

         13  like to refer to the document, Exhibit Z928.  It was

         14  produced yesterday.  Could it be shown to the witness.

         15  And I should like to comment on this document, if I

         16  may, Mr. President.

         17       Q.   Witness, this document is dated the 10th of

         18  May, 1993.  It is signed by Mr. Zlatko Aleksovski, who

         19  was the warden of the camp at Kaonik.

         20            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.

         21            MR. KOVACIC:  We're not opposing the

         22  document, but it is not true that the document is

         23  signed.  It's clearly stated on the document itself.

         24            JUDGE MAY:  This document, as I recollect,

         25  was attached to Mr. McLeod's report.

Page 12610

          1            MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] Quite

          2  correct.

          3            JUDGE MAY:  Well, whether it's signed or not,

          4  the name at the bottom is "Zlatko Aleksovski."  Yes.

          5            MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] Quite.

          6  What I was trying to say with regard to the document is

          7  that it was already annexed to Mr. McLeod's report, and

          8  it was simply for practical convenience, because this

          9  was only an annex to the report; it was not a separate

         10  exhibit.  And that is why we decided to give it the

         11  number now, Z928, but it has the general number of

         12  Mr. McLeod's report, which was filed under the number

         13  Z926.

         14       Q.   Witness, is it your name which appears on

         15  page 2 of this document under 70?

         16       A.   Yes.

         17       Q.   Do you recognise some other names of persons

         18  who were detained in Kaonik at the same time as you

         19  were?

         20       A.   I recognise the names of the whole group that

         21  was with me.

         22       Q.   Could you give us those names, quickly.

         23       A.   Yes, of course.  Serif Causevic, Alija Besic,

         24  Ferim Besic, Cazim Ahmic, Enes Surkovic, Ramo Kaknjo,

         25  Suad Salkic, Batija Sivro, Edib Zlotrg, Kadir Dzidic.

Page 12611

          1       Q.   On the 16 th of May, '93, you and the

          2  detainees that had been transferred from the Kaonik

          3  Camp were exchanged for some HVO soldiers in Vitez,

          4  that is, soldiers who had been captured by the

          5  Bosnia-Herzegovina army?

          6       A.   Yes.

          7       Q.   And on the day of your liberation, on the

          8  16th of May, '93, you were beaten severely by the

          9  military within the cinema compound -- within the

         10  cinema precincts.  Could you tell us something about

         11  this act of violence.

         12       A.   I wouldn't say hit me, because it means being

         13  hit once.  I was beaten.  I was struck repeatedly.

         14  Members of the military police, namely, who were in the

         15  lobby, who were on guard, as a matter of fact in the

         16  cinema, they called me to come out.  Allegedly, they

         17  had something to tell me, to transmit some

         18  information.  And when I came out into the lobby, they

         19  started beating me with some wooden and metal objects,

         20  whatever they could lay their hands on.  This whole

         21  scene was observed by one of their commanders, Anto

         22  Kovac, nicknamed Zabac, who did nothing to stop them.

         23            If I may, I should also like to add the

         24  following.  At the moment where we were to be released,

         25  I let know the mayor, Ivan Santic, about this

Page 12612

          1  incident.  And he told me that he would report it to

          2  their superior, Mario Cerkez.  But no steps were taken

          3  in this regard.

          4            MR. LOPEZ-TERRES:  Thank you.

          5            Mr. President, I have no further questions

          6  for this witness.

          7            MR. KOVACIC:  Your Honour, with permission of

          8  the Court, could we switch places and could I start

          9  with that witness?

         10            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.

         11            MR. KOVACIC:  Thank you.

         12                 Cross-examined by Mr. Kovacic:

         13            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

         14            MR. KOVACIC:

         15       Q.   [Interpretation] My name is Bozidar Kovacic,

         16  I am an attorney from Rijeka, and together with

         17  colleague Mr. Mikulicic I represent Mr. Cerkez.  And I

         18  will have a few questions for you.

         19            We speak the same language, so we understand

         20  one another, but we must not forget that what we are

         21  saying is being interpreted simultaneously, so please

         22  make a short break between the questions and answers,

         23  so that the interpreters can follow.

         24            Also, should you not understand the question,

         25  or should I put it incorrectly, please let me know, so

Page 12613

          1  I can rephrase it.

          2            I think I can begin now.  Let me ask you

          3  first a few questions linked to the meeting held in the

          4  premises of the Territorial Defence on the 19th of

          5  October, 1992, in the evening, which you testified

          6  about at length.  Let us first establish who was

          7  present.  Will you please confirm or deny the names I

          8  am going to give.  On behalf of the HVO there was Ivica

          9  Santic and Mario Cerkez; is that correct?

         10       A.   Yes.

         11       Q.   On behalf of the war presidency, Fuad Kaknjo?

         12       A.   Yes.

         13       Q.   Munib Kajmovic?

         14       A.   Correct.

         15       Q.   Muhamed Mujezinovic?

         16       A.   Correct.

         17       Q.   Sefkija Djidic and yourself.  Those were the

         18  persons present at that meeting, all of them?

         19       A.   I think Sulejman Kalco should be mentioned

         20  too.

         21       Q.   Other witnesses testified here, and nobody

         22  mentioned Kalco.  Are you sure he was present, or do

         23  you think he was present?

         24       A.   Among those that you mentioned that evening,

         25  at that meeting; yes, I am quite sure that he was there

Page 12614

          1  too.

          2       Q.   Let us also make sure who was what.  Ivica

          3  Santic was town mayor and president of the HVO

          4  government at the time?

          5       A.   Yes, that is the civilian branch of the HVO.

          6       Q.   Is that correct?

          7       A.   The civilian and the military were

          8  integrated.

          9       Q.   Never mind.  We'll come back to that.  But

         10  his title was president of the HVO government in Vitez?

         11       A.   That is correct.

         12       Q.   Thank you.  Cerkez, in October 1992, was a

         13  member of the municipal staff of the HVO, wasn't he?

         14       A.   Yes.

         15       Q.   As a prominent figure, as a member of all

         16  these various bodies; you were aware of that?

         17       A.   Yes.

         18       Q.   The immediate superior at the time of Cerkez

         19  was Marion Skopljak, president of the HVO staff; the

         20  chief of staff in Vitez municipality?

         21       A.   Yes.

         22       Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  At the meeting, on

         23  behalf of the HVO, were those two persons, Cerkez and

         24  Santic.  Who spoke on behalf of the HVO at that

         25  meeting?  Santic is the superior.  Was he the one

Page 12615

          1  conducting the dialogue?

          2       A.   Yes, he was superior by position, but the

          3  dialogue was conducted mostly by Mario Cerkez.

          4       Q.   Witness AC, I should like to show you what

          5  two witnesses said in reference to that meeting.

          6            And could we go into private session for a

          7  moment, as one of the witnesses had a pseudonym, so as

          8  to avoid any error.

          9            JUDGE MAY:  What's the point, before you do,

         10  Mr. Kovacic, of asking the witness what somebody else

         11  said?  All you are going to be doing is asking the

         12  witness to comment on what another witness has said.

         13            Now, if you want to make that sort of

         14  comment, of course you can make it to us, if there is

         15  some point of difference in this witness's evidence in

         16  relation to the other witnesses.  But there really

         17  isn't any point, is there, in having him comment on

         18  what somebody else said.

         19            MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Mr. President,

         20  I wasn't going to ask him to comment.  I just wished to

         21  show the witness that two of his colleagues, honourable

         22  men, testified in a quite a different manner, and I

         23  wanted to read him one of the answers from those

         24  testimonies.  And this might refresh the memory of the

         25  witness.  And then we would go on to the next issue:

Page 12616

          1  who made the phone call.  Because I don't think it is

          2  immaterial whether Cerkez represented the HVO at the

          3  meeting or if he was escorting Mr. Santic.  In my view,

          4  this is a substantial difference.

          5            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.  It is a difference we'll

          6  have to consider.  This witness says one thing; other

          7  witnesses say something different.  All that you would

          8  be doing by reading out what others said is to, in

          9  effect, have him comment on what they said.  That's

         10  what you're going to do.

         11            Now, the people to make the comment to is the

         12  Court.  You can say to us, in due course, "This is what

         13  X and C said and this is what Z said."  You can ask the

         14  witness, if you want -- you could put to the witness,

         15  if you say he is mistaken, that other witnesses have

         16  said something else; does that make him change his mind

         17  about his evidence?  You can put it like that.  If you

         18  want to put the names of the witnesses, you can do so,

         19  and we will go into closed session, but you can't put

         20  the entire statement to him.  You can just put it in

         21  summary form as a question.

         22            Do you want to go into closed session,

         23  Mr. Kovacic, to do it?

         24            MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I would

         25  appreciate that, but it won't take more than one

Page 12617

          1  sentence just to refresh the witness's memory, and he

          2  might even change his evidence.

          3            JUDGE MAY:  Very well.  Put it that way.

          4            MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] In the

          5  meantime, until we go into closed session, Witness, you

          6  agree, I hope, with the statement that your

          7  colleagues -- are we in private session?  Closed

          8  session.

          9                 [Private session]

         10  (redacted)

         11  (redacted)

         12  (redacted)

         13  (redacted)

         14  (redacted)

         15  (redacted)

         16  (redacted)

         17  (redacted)

         18  (redacted)

         19  (redacted)

         20  (redacted)

         21  (redacted)

         22  (redacted)

         23  (redacted)

         24  (redacted)

         25  (redacted)

Page 12618

          1  (redacted)

          2  (redacted)

          3  (redacted)

          4  (redacted)

          5  (redacted)

          6  (redacted)

          7  (redacted)

          8  (redacted)

          9  (redacted)

         10  (redacted)

         11  (redacted)

         12  (redacted)

         13  (redacted)

         14  (redacted)

         15  (redacted)

         16  (redacted)

         17  (redacted)

         18  (redacted)

         19  (redacted)

         20  (redacted)

         21  (redacted)

         22  (redacted)

         23  (redacted)

         24  (redacted)

         25  (redacted)

Page 12619

          1  (redacted)

          2  (redacted)

          3  (redacted)

          4  (redacted)

          5  (redacted)

          6  (redacted)

          7  (redacted)

          8  (redacted)

          9  (redacted)

         10  (redacted)

         11  (redacted)

         12  (redacted)

         13  (redacted)

         14  (redacted)

         15  (redacted)

         16  (redacted)

         17  (redacted)

         18  (redacted)

         19                 [Open session]

         20            MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

         21       Q. (redacted)

         22  (redacted)

         23  (redacted)

         24       A.   Yes.

         25            MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps I said

Page 12620

          1  too much about earlier duties.  Could identify the

          2  witness.  But I think we could --

          3            JUDGE MAY:  It can be redacted.  If it was

          4  not in closed session, it can be redacted.

          5            MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

          6       Q.   In any event, you were involved in the

          7  economy.  Tell me, from your personal experience, when

          8  you go to attend a business meeting with your own

          9  manager, your superior, at that meeting who is the main

         10  interlocutor with a third party, your superior or

         11  someone lower down?

         12       A.   It depends what issues are discussed.  If

         13  there are issues within my terms of reference,

         14  obviously I would be responsible.  Otherwise, why would

         15  I be going to the meeting?

         16       Q.   Yes, but only if your general manager asks

         17  you to enter into a dialogue on those issues.

         18       A.   It could be like that, but it need not.

         19       Q.   Let me ask you:  Similarly, if you go to a

         20  business meeting and take a subordinate, because of his

         21  specialised knowledge, to that meeting, who would be

         22  the speaker, you or your younger assistant?

         23       A.   I would repeat the same answer that I gave a

         24  moment ago.

         25       Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  Please, your

Page 12621

          1  allegation that you made a moment ago, it is based on

          2  what?  And after you told us that you were familiar

          3  with the situation and that Cerkez was in the municipal

          4  staff of the HVO at the time and that his immediate

          5  superior was Marijan Skopljak at the time, on which

          6  grounds do you allege that Kordic was Cerkez's boss or

          7  commander?  That's what you said yesterday.

          8       A.   I said that that was what the accused Cerkez

          9  told us explicitly.

         10       Q.   He told you that Kordic was his superior.

         11  And you have no other basis for that statement?  Do you

         12  have anybody else's statement to that effect?

         13       A.   I think that all the Croats in the Lasva

         14  Valley saw the accused Dario Kordic as the military and

         15  political leader or chief.

         16       Q.   So I assume that we would agree that you're

         17  not trying to say that Kordic is the immediate superior

         18  of Cerkez.

         19       A.   I didn't even say that.

         20       Q.   So your allegation that Kordic was Cerkez's

         21  commander does not mean that he was his immediate

         22  commander.

         23       A.   I said that the accused Cerkez said that.

         24       Q.   But he didn't say that he was his immediate

         25  superior?

Page 12622

          1       A.   He didn't need to explain to us their

          2  relationship.

          3       Q.   Thank you.  Witness, let us clarify a little

          4  the reason for the meeting.  The mentioned persons,

          5  Santic and Cerkez, came to the meeting in the quest for

          6  a solution to the problem, the problem being the

          7  roadblock at Ahmici.  Is that correct?

          8       A.   No solution can be achieved by ultimatums.

          9       Q.   Will you give me a precise answer, please?

         10  The topic of discussion at the meeting was to find a

         11  way to remove the barricade?

         12       A.   What they were really interested in -- that

         13  is, Santic and Cerkez -- was not the physical removal

         14  of the roadblock but the passage of their units to Novi

         15  Travnik.

         16       Q.   Correct.  On the other hand, you, the people

         17  of Vitez, both sides, the citizens of Vitez who were

         18  attending the meeting, it was in your interest.  If

         19  certain troops needed to pass through Vitez, it was in

         20  your interest to make sure that the troops pass through

         21  Vitez and that they don't stay on there.  That was your

         22  prime concern, wasn't it?

         23       A.   No.  That simply is not correct, because the

         24  troops were supposed to come from Busovaca, through

         25  Vitez, and go on to Novi Travnik.

Page 12623

          1       Q.   So you don't agree that it was in the

          2  interest of the local people, and I'm thinking of

          3  representatives of both communities, for them just to

          4  pass through rather than to be stationed in your town?

          5  Would you agree with that?

          6       A.   Yes, I could agree with that.  Since -- if we

          7  hadn't known where those troops were going, and they

          8  were really going to reinforce HVO troops in Novi

          9  Travnik, where tensions were already very high.

         10       Q.   Witness, I will have to tell you once again

         11  that a co-participant from that meeting, who testified

         12  here under the pseudonym L, explicitly said that the

         13  gist of the matter was to find a solution how these

         14  "outside troops" should pass through Vitez and not

         15  stay on in Vitez.

         16       A.   Certainly that was one of the concerns and

         17  part of the solution, but the way chosen by Santic and

         18  Cerkez was to issue an ultimatum to explicitly demand

         19  the removal of the barricade and free passage for their

         20  units.

         21       Q.   Very well.  Santic and Cerkez, or anyone

         22  else, did not say that those troops had to go through

         23  Vitez, and that was why they were requesting the

         24  lifting of the barricade so as to go on to Novi

         25  Travnik.  They were saying something else.  But it was

Page 12624

          1  your side which inferred that it was Novi Travnik that

          2  they were headed for.

          3       A.   It wasn't only our inference, but the

          4  telephone conversation also confirmed that.  They

          5  accused Dario Kordic, who was in Novi Travnik already,

          6  was requesting that the unit be allowed to move on to

          7  Novi Travnik.

          8       Q.   But if they go to Jajce, they have to use the

          9  same route?

         10       A.   In a way, yes, but the Croat side never

         11  mentioned anything of the kind.  And, listen, what I

         12  should like to say now is that both sides were aware

         13  that if the roadblock were not lifted, that it could

         14  entail, it could result in an armed conflict.  And

         15  somebody who was said to go to Jajce, I think would

         16  realise that and try to avoid a conflict.

         17       Q.   Witness, I am asking you to answer a very

         18  simple question.  Did the negotiating parties, that is

         19  Cerkez and Santic, tell you that they were asking for

         20  the removal of the roadblocks so that the HVO troops

         21  coming from other municipalities move onto Novi

         22  Travnik; or was it the conclusion that you arrived at,

         23  that, in fact, they wanted to go to Novi Travnik?  Very

         24  simple.

         25       A.   We also arrived at that conclusion, but the

Page 12625

          1  course of the meeting and the conversation with Kordic

          2  confirmed this.

          3       Q.   But it was subsequently when the conversation

          4  took place, but Cerkez and Santic did not say that the

          5  troops were headed for Novi Travnik?

          6       A.   They said that the troops had to go through,

          7  but they -- neither did they say that they were headed

          8  for Jajce.

          9       Q.   Very well.  But you will agree that it is

         10  beyond dispute that at the time the HVO and the BiH

         11  army were fighting side by side to defend Jajce against

         12  the Serb troops?

         13       A.   Yes, but the circumstances of it were very

         14  strange indeed.

         15       Q.   Thank you.  Witness, I have reasons to

         16  believe that you know that.  That same evening other

         17  meetings took place, and several, or I should say quite

         18  a number of bilateral contacts were established in

         19  search of a peaceful solution.  Is that correct?

         20       A.   I don't know what meetings you have in mind.

         21       Q.   Well, for instance, there was a meeting at

         22  the health centre about one hour later, according to

         23  the information that we have.

         24       A.   But I was in these premises --

         25       Q.   Yes, right.  You told us all of that.  Excuse

Page 12626

          1  me for interrupting you.  But my question is:  Do you

          2  know that other meetings, or at least one other

          3  meeting, was held, and several bilateral conversations

          4  took place between those eminent personalities?

          5       A.   Well, you would have to define the term

          6  "eminent personalities," because, after all, this was

          7  the meeting that was trying to resolve this question in

          8  a fundamental manner.

          9       Q.   Right.  Well, I'll ask you it a different

         10  way, then.  Did you know, did you learn later on that

         11  evening, or some other time, that that same evening,

         12  another meeting or meetings were held which were also

         13  trying to find a peaceful solution to a potential

         14  conflict?  Are you aware of that or not?  Just that.

         15       A.   I am not aware of that.

         16       Q.   You are not.  Are you aware that that same

         17  evening there were several bilateral attempts by some

         18  important personalities, such as Santic, such as

         19  Kajmovic, such as Marijan Skopljak, who made various

         20  phone calls, trying to address information to the other

         21  side in trying to arrive at some solution?

         22       A.   Well, the communication was not cut off.  The

         23  links were not cut off.

         24       Q.   So there was a channel which could be used to

         25  devise some solution?

Page 12627

          1       A.   Yes, there was a channel.

          2       Q.   Right.  You keep insisting on that request to

          3  lift the roadblock.  And let us try to save some time.

          4  And I shall suggest something to you and then you can

          5  confirm it or deny it.  On the main road through the

          6  Lasva Valley, below the village of Ahmici, a military

          7  roadblock or a barricade was put up, and this roadblock

          8  was manned by infantry, by armed units of the BiH

          9  army.  Is that correct?

         10       A.   Yes.

         11       Q.   That roadblock was set up on the basis of

         12  orders which arrived from the 3rd Corps; is that

         13  correct?

         14       A.   I did not see that documentation of that

         15  kind.

         16       Q.   But you must have heard about it?

         17       A.   I think that a decision to set up the

         18  roadblock was taken by Sefkija Djidic, but it could be

         19  that other persons from the corps consented.

         20       Q.   You mean Sefkija Djidic, the local commander

         21  of the army of BiH in Vitez?

         22       A.   Yes.

         23       Q.   And that same day, on the other side of the

         24  approach to Vitez, but on the same road at Grbavica,

         25  next to the Bosna building enterprise, another

Page 12628

          1  roadblock was set up; is that correct?

          2       A.   That roadblock, if it existed, and I am not

          3  aware of that, but if it existed, it would be mostly

          4  symbolical and, militarily speaking, of lesser

          5  importance than the former one.

          6       Q.   Yes.  We can agree that it was very political

          7  and militarily less important, but it was set up

          8  nevertheless?

          9       A.   I never said that.

         10       Q.   Very well.  So, the negotiations failed.  And

         11  the next morning, the HVO army attacked the roadblock;

         12  is that correct?

         13       A.   Yes.

         14       Q.   The army attack was not directed at the

         15  village, even though some damage was caused to some

         16  facilities and houses in the immediate vicinity of the

         17  roadblock where the conflict took place?

         18       A.   No, that is not correct, because a large

         19  number of buildings, of structures around the

         20  roadblock, were attacked as well.

         21       Q.   In that conflict, unfortunately, there were

         22  casualties on both sides?

         23       A.   Yes.

         24       Q.   How do you know that it was Ivan Santic who

         25  led the attack?  You were not there, were you?

Page 12629

          1       A.   I was not there, but I said that my sister's

          2  husband, my brother-in-law, who lived in the immediate

          3  vicinity, had told me that.

          4       Q.   Can we just make a correction.  Nenad Santic,

          5  not Ivan Santic.  Nenad Santic.

          6            Do you remember when it was when he told you

          7  that, and where did he tell you that?

          8       A.   He told me that sometime in early November,

          9  in my flat in Vitez, because we often visited one

         10  another.

         11       Q.   And could you please be good enough to give

         12  us his name?

         13       A.   (redacted).

         14       Q.   On that occasion, even if shots were fired at

         15  the minaret in Ahmici, the minaret did not topple, did

         16  it?

         17       A.   No, it did not.

         18       Q.   And while we are talking about Nenad, let us

         19  finish what we have to say about him.  Do you know that

         20  he lives about 100 metres from the roadblock?

         21       A.   I do not know the houses he lives in, but,

         22  yes, it is nearby.

         23       Q.   Very well.  Then you told us that after the

         24  roadblock was removed, that kind of a truce was signed

         25  then.  And could the witness be shown the exhibit

Page 12630

          1  already tendered, Z2461.  While we are waiting for the

          2  document, you will agree, won't you, that after this

          3  quite remarkable incident, this conflict, this clash

          4  between the two sides, all the politicians of that

          5  locality from both sides were trying to get together

          6  and devise some solution?

          7       A.   Quite.  The Bosnia side always wanted to find

          8  a solution, a peaceful solution, so as not to have --

          9  to solve their problems in that particular manner.

         10       Q.   246,1.  Point 1.  Will you please also

         11  prepare D17/1-12 and -13.  Will you please have a look

         12  at this document, especially at those present.  The

         13  title -- will you please look at the contents.  And my

         14  question is the following:  Did you mean this document

         15  when you said that a kind of a truce was signed?

         16       A.   Yes.

         17       Q.   That is the document that you had in mind?

         18       A.   Yes.

         19       Q.   Right.  So there were present representatives

         20  of the UNHCR, UNPROFOR, and there were priests,

         21  representatives of clergy, both Muslim and Catholic;

         22  there were representatives of armed forces, political

         23  representatives.  Mario Cerkez, evidently, came later,

         24  because his name is written by hand as representative

         25  of the municipal HVO headquarters.  And it is quite

Page 12631

          1  evident that now a broad political effort is being made

          2  to try to calm things down?

          3       A.   Yes.

          4       Q.   So we agree about that.  Thank you.  Is it

          5  correct that after that, the municipality compensated

          6  for the damage to the houses and farm buildings which

          7  were around the roadblock and had been damaged?

          8       A.   I learnt that some effort was made to

          9  compensate for part of the damage, but it was not

         10  compensated for in any noteworthy manner.

         11       Q.   Right.  These efforts -- and you told us that

         12  it was a time fraught with incidents, when Muslim shops

         13  were broken and the like.  I should like to have

         14  document D17,1.  And there are 12 and 13.

         15            THE INTERPRETER:  Could those documents be

         16  placed on the ELMO, because the interpreters don't have

         17  them.

         18            JUDGE MAY:  Yes, put the documents on the

         19  ELMO.

         20            MR. KOVACIC:  [Interpretation]

         21       Q.   Witness, will you please have a look at the

         22  document, the names there, the title, the signatories.

         23  Can we agree that, as for the subject matter, this is a

         24  document similar to the previous one?  We see that the

         25  dialogue goes on, that these are some efforts to calm

Page 12632

          1  the situation in Vitez down.

          2       A.   Yes.

          3       Q.   So we agree about that.  Do we agree that the

          4  signatories really held those posts which are mentioned

          5  here?

          6       A.   Yes.

          7       Q.   And now the next document, please, D17/1-13.

          8  Will you please take a look?

          9            So the first sentence of this letter and the

         10  last item in the previous document, we see that one of

         11  the conclusions reached by the preceding session is

         12  being put through; that is, the confiscated military

         13  equipment is exchanged, and that was the conclusion of

         14  item 4 of the earlier agreement.  And Cerkez signs this

         15  letter, which he then sends it to Sefkija Dzidic, as

         16  the then deputy commander of the Stjepan Tomasevic

         17  Brigade.

         18            Have you heard anything about this document?

         19  Do you know if these conclusions were put through, or

         20  at least the majority of them?

         21       A.   I don't know, because this was happening at

         22  the time when I had the visit of HVO members, that is,

         23  at the time when my family and I were ill-treated by

         24  the HVO in our flat.  After that, for a short while I

         25  was absent from Vitez.

Page 12633

          1       Q.   Right.  Thank you.  But do you agree that

          2  this -- all this was part of the attempt to bring down

          3  the tension in Vitez?

          4       A.   Yes.  On paper, yes, but the situation on the

          5  ground, especially when it comes to the HVO behaviour,

          6  did not lead to that.

          7       Q.   You mean that the situation in Vitez was not

          8  calmed down, is it?

          9       A.   Quite true.

         10       Q.   Right.  We'll go back to this issue briefly.

         11            JUDGE MAY:  Mr. Kovacic, we're taking up some

         12  time.  Now, the witness doesn't seem to be able to help

         13  very much about these matters.  Can we move on?

         14            MR. KOVACIC:  Yes.  I'm going on to new

         15  topics.

         16       Q.   [Interpretation] Yesterday, in your

         17  testimony, you used the term "HVO" several times.  A

         18  moment ago we agreed that this was a civilian and a

         19  military branch of the HVO.  There was a civilian

         20  government in the Vitez municipality, and there's the

         21  military structure within the territory of the

         22  municipality.  Is that correct?

         23       A.   Yes, there were those two elements, but they

         24  acted in synchronisation.

         25       Q.   I assume you will agree with me when I say

Page 12634

          1  that the HVO was the government of the Croatian

          2  Community of Herceg-Bosna.  At the level of the

          3  municipality and elsewhere they had these two main

          4  elements.

          5            In the military structure of the HVO the

          6  situation changed as the situation developed, but let

          7  me ask you a few questions about that.  Did you know

          8  that the Operational Zone of Central Bosnia was based

          9  in Vitez?

         10       A.   I think so, yes.

         11       Q.   Would you agree with me that the headquarters

         12  were in the hotel and everyone referred to it as the

         13  "Blaskic command"?

         14       A.   Yes.

         15       Q.   Did you know that at the end of 1992 and

         16  until the middle of March 1993, there was a joint

         17  inter-municipal brigade, Vitez-Novi Travnik, known as

         18  Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade?

         19       A.   Yes, I know about that brigade.

         20       Q.   Do you know that the 1st Battalion of that

         21  brigade was based in Vitez?

         22       A.   One of those battalions.  I don't know

         23  exactly the names, but one of them was based in Vitez.

         24       Q.   In your earlier testimony, you mentioned the

         25  so-called special purpose unit Vitezovi.  Did they

Page 12635

          1  exist within the municipality?

          2       A.   Yes, unfortunately.

          3       Q.   You also mentioned the military police.  Did

          4  that exist?

          5       A.   Yes.

          6       Q.   Apropos the military police, it was based in

          7  the hotel, was it not?

          8       A.   Yes.

          9       Q.   In 1993 it was in the hotel too?

         10       A.   I think so, yes.

         11       Q.   Then, as a separate unit within the military

         12  police there was the special purpose unit the Jokers;

         13  correct?

         14       A.   Yes.

         15       Q.   And in December and January, there were units

         16  that people referred to as the Hercegovci, the

         17  Herzegovinians?

         18       A.   Yes.  There were certain troops coming from

         19  that part of the country, so people referred to them in

         20  that way.

         21       Q.   Then there was a unit known as Ludvig

         22  Pavlovic?

         23       A.   You mean in Vitez?

         24       Q.   Yes.

         25       A.   Perhaps there were members of that unit, but

Page 12636

          1  I'm not familiar with them.

          2       Q.   Let us summarise then.  So we can agree that

          3  there were several different units all belonging to the

          4  HVO?

          5       A.   Yes.

          6       Q.   Each of those units, by nature of things, by

          7  definition, has its own commander, structure,

          8  organisation.

          9       A.   It has a micro-organisation, yes, but they

         10  also complied with orders coming from the supreme

         11  command in the region.

         12       Q.   But we refer to all of them together as the

         13  HVO?

         14       A.   Yes.

         15       Q.   Would you agree that for you, as a citizen,

         16  when two bandits come to your house and you consider

         17  them to be the HVO but, in fact, you don't care whom

         18  they belong to, all you need to know is that they were

         19  HVO?

         20       A.   Yes.  That is sufficient and that is

         21  correct.

         22       Q.   But regarding those two bandits who

         23  mistreated you for a whole hour in your own apartment,

         24  let me ask you:  They wore no insignia, you said?

         25       A.   They did not have any insignia, but other HVO

Page 12637

          1  members were waiting for them at the entrance to the

          2  flat, who didn't come in.  And as soon as they left, I

          3  saw them from my window and I could see that they were

          4  members of the HVO.

          5       Q.   But you don't know which unit of the HVO they

          6  belonged to?

          7       A.   I do not.

          8       Q.   Then let me ask you, to finish with that

          9  incident, a most unfortunate and tragic incident for

         10  you, you were living in a building where the Benc cafe

         11  was and another 070 cafe.

         12       A.   You mean the building where the Benc cafe

         13  is?  No, not the same building.

         14       Q.   Nearby, then?

         15       A.   Yes, near the cafe.

         16       Q.   So it is the part of the town known as the

         17  Kolonjia.  And that cafe was one of the alternative

         18  command posts, a place where the Vitezovi would

         19  regularly rally?

         20       A.   Yes.

         21       Q.   And actually, that part of the town, from

         22  April on, was under their control.  It was their

         23  territory, so to speak.  Is that correct?

         24       A.   Yes.  One could put it that way.

         25       Q.   But we said a moment ago that all lower-level

Page 12638

          1  units were subordinated to the command?

          2       A.   Yes.

          3       Q.   But let us explain things and maybe the

          4  Prosecutor will ask you to elucidate other things more

          5  clearly.  So we agree that the Vitezovi were the bosses

          6  there in that part of town?

          7       A.   Their number was small, and if we give them

          8  such an attribute, then certainly they had a particular

          9  assignment.  They were relatively small in number

         10  compared to the overall strength of the HVO, and it is

         11  difficult to call them bosses in a given region unless

         12  they were given such a role.

         13       Q.   Does that mean that you are trying to tell us

         14  that they were not feared in this particular part of

         15  Vitez?

         16       A.   Yes.  Everyone knew that, including the HVO

         17  command and the brigades you mentioned a moment ago,

         18  those that you listed.

         19       Q.   Tell me, the command of the military police,

         20  you said you knew that it was in the hotel.

         21       A.   Yes.

         22       Q.   Do you know that --

         23            MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

         24  Mr. President, it seems that the dialogue being so

         25  quick, we don't know who's asking the question and who

Page 12639

          1  is giving the answer.  So we can't really follow.

          2            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.  Mr. Kovacic, you've had

          3  nearly an hour of cross-examination.  I hope you can

          4  bring things to a conclusion at least by the

          5  adjournment.

          6            MR. KOVACIC:  Your Honours, I will do my

          7  best, but you do understand that it is not really

          8  unimportant witness for my client, and some things

          9  seems to be different by the understanding of this

         10  witness, and I have to clarify some things.

         11            JUDGE MAY:  Very well.

         12            MR. KOVACIC:  Just for your information, Your

         13  Honours, Mr. Naumovski will be rather short, because we

         14  were trying to divide, and I will certainly do my

         15  best.  I already skipped some things.

         16            JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic,

         17  bear in mind the problem of the interpretation, please,

         18  and what the Prosecutor has just said a moment ago, so

         19  that we can follow correctly the questions and the

         20  answers, please.  Thank you.

         21            MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

         22       Q.   Witness, you have heard.  I have been

         23  reprimanded for going too quickly a moment ago in our

         24  dialogue, but the blame is mine entirely.

         25            Tell me, please, is it true that the military

Page 12640

          1  police, and you being a citizen who moved around quite

          2  a bit, that you knew that the military police guarded

          3  the key buildings in Vitez?

          4       A.   No.  I did not have any occasion to see

          5  that.

          6       Q.   For instance, wasn't the military police in

          7  front of the hotel?

          8       A.   Yes.  The command posts where they were

          9  providing security for military establishments.

         10       Q.   But we're talking about the period from April

         11  1993 onwards, not all the time?

         12       A.   April 1993?  Yes, even before that the

         13  military police did secure certain military facilities.

         14       Q.   Do you know that all those security platoons

         15  come under the same military police, which had its

         16  command in the hotel?

         17       A.   I assume so.

         18       Q.   In the cinema hall, you told us that among

         19  the military policemen you recognised somebody called

         20  Zlatko Nakic.  I should like to show you his

         21  photograph.

         22            MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.

         23  Here it is.

         24            THE REGISTRAR:  Document is marked D51/2.

         25            MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

Page 12641

          1       Q.   Tell us, please, regardless of the poor

          2  quality of the photograph, if you can recognise and

          3  identify this person as the person you mentioned.

          4       A.   Yes.

          5       Q.   So you know that he was a member of the

          6  military police?

          7       A.   Yes.

          8       Q.   Apropos, did you hear later on that he was

          9  killed?

         10       A.   Yes, I heard that.

         11       Q.   Thank you.  And let us dwell for a moment on

         12  the period that you mentioned; that is, January 1993.

         13            MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I should like

         14  to draw the attention of the Trial Chamber, to save

         15  time, to documents D9/2, and D10/2.

         16       Q.   I'm not going to show you these documents, to

         17  expedite things, but very briefly, you said that there

         18  were a series of incidents in town in that period?

         19       A.   Yes.

         20       Q.   You agree that efforts were made to establish

         21  control and that the police tried to do something in

         22  that direction?

         23       A.   Yes.  There were attempts but no results.

         24       Q.   So the results were poor?

         25       A.   Yes.

Page 12642

          1       Q.   But efforts did exist?

          2       A.   Yes.  If we view them in the context of the

          3  results, since it was possible to have some effect on

          4  the situation, one wonders whether those efforts were

          5  really appropriate.

          6       Q.   You agree that there were certain groups at

          7  the time, as a result of various circumstances, that

          8  existed in the territory of the town and who were

          9  extremists and who were the main causes of those

         10  incidents?

         11       A.   Yes, but their appearance or emergence was

         12  partly programmed.  Rather, those units were given

         13  freedom to act as part of the local forces of the HVO,

         14  which points to the conclusion that they were units

         15  executing certain assignments according to established

         16  plans.

         17       Q.   Yes, but we agree that the most prominent

         18  were units coming from outside the area?

         19       A.   No, I wouldn't agree, because many of the

         20  leaders of these infamous units were people from Vitez

         21  itself.

         22       Q.   Tell us, Witness, did you know that in '93

         23  the commander of the military police in Vitez of the

         24  4th battalion of the military police was a person

         25  called Anto Sliskovic?

Page 12643

          1       A.   In Vitez, no, I didn't know that.

          2       Q.   Just a few more words on another topic.  You

          3  told us that you were a member of the committee for the

          4  protection -- I apologise.  My question was wrong.  I

          5  meant Pasko Ljubicic was the commander of that unit.

          6  Do you remember that?

          7       A.   Yes, I have heard of him, and I know that he

          8  was a commander in a sense of a part of the military

          9  police.

         10       Q.   In Vitez?

         11       A.   Yes.

         12       Q.   I apologise for my error.

         13            So I was saying that you were a member of the

         14  committee for the protection of the interests of

         15  Muslims.  Two brief questions:  That body was

         16  operational in the second half of 1992; was it not?

         17       A.   Will you please tell me what time you are

         18  referring to, time period?

         19       Q.   From 1992 until 1993, it existed throughout,

         20  and then developed into war presidency?

         21       A.   Yes, I agree.

         22       Q.   So that committee was not formally registered

         23  anywhere as an association or anything else, according

         24  to the laws in force at the time?

         25       A.   I think it was not, but I was one of the

Page 12644

          1  members who was not responsible for that kind of

          2  question.

          3       Q.   So in spite of the climate that prevailed,

          4  nobody prevented any such body from operating.  The HVO

          5  that was in power in the municipality allowed such body

          6  to operate; in fact, you were collocutors in many

          7  dialogues?

          8       A.   No, we were not collocutors, and I couldn't

          9  agree with what you just said, because, as you can see

         10  from the series of documents that you, among others,

         11  have produced, the institution of the co-ordination body

         12  does not appear as a negotiator or as a signatory,

         13  though individuals from that body did participate in

         14  social and political life, but on a different basis.

         15       Q.   But in any event, we agree that it was a

         16  public association, that it was a group operating in

         17  public, and that it acted to protect the interests of

         18  the Muslims?

         19       A.   Yes, but regarding the freedom given by the

         20  HVO, that is highly questionable, and I don't agree

         21  with that, because neither did we have the premises,

         22  nor did we have any proper conditions for work, and

         23  even the members of that body were looked upon with

         24  disfavour by the HVO authorities.

         25       Q.   Thank you.  But until the very beginning of

Page 12645

          1  1993, nobody prohibited the activities of that

          2  committee, and it developed into the war presidency; is

          3  that correct?

          4       A.   Yes, it is.

          5       Q.   And the war presidency was founded by decree

          6  of the President of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and

          7  Dr. Mujezinovic was elected President in the beginning

          8  of 1993.  And the competencies of that war presidency,

          9  as evident from the title, was that it gave

         10  instructions to the Territorial Defence and the BiH

         11  army, of course respecting the military hierarchy in

         12  the BiH army?

         13       A.   Yes.  Not just the BiH army.  The war

         14  presidency was a form that was institutionalised

         15  through the decisions of the presidency of

         16  Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that is how it was formed in

         17  the municipality.

         18       Q.   And it was operative?

         19       A.   Yes.

         20       Q.   Let us go onto another topic.  On Vitez

         21  television, (redacted)

         22  (redacted)

         23  (redacted)

         24  (redacted)

         25  (redacted) Was it all the time under

Page 12646

          1  the control of the Territorial Defence or, rather, the

          2  army of the BiH?  Is it correct?

          3       A.   Well, the relay station was at a place which

          4  is near large Muslim localities, so that one could say

          5  that it was under the control of the army, of course

          6  anyone could use it.

          7       Q.   But they could cover the area, they could

          8  watch the area into that -- the programmes to that

          9  relay station?

         10       A.   Yes.

         11       Q.   You mentioned Nenad Santic again, not only at

         12  the roadblocks, but that he was in Ahmici on the 16th

         13  of April.  How do you know that he was in Ahmici?  Who

         14  told you that?

         15       A.   A large number of witnesses stated it; those

         16  who escaped, who fled to Zenica after the massacre in

         17  Ahmici.

         18       Q.   Right.  But could you give us some names, or

         19  a name?

         20       A.   No, right now I cannot do that.

         21       Q.   Could you then describe the place and time

         22  when you were told that?

         23       A.   Yes.  It was happening in May or June '93, in

         24  Zenica, where I was living with my family at the time.

         25       Q.   In one of your statements to the

Page 12647

          1  investigators in '98, and yesterday you also mentioned

          2  it, you spoke about the name of that action in April

          3  '93, that is, 48 Hours of Ashes and Dust.

          4       A.   Yes.

          5       Q.   (redacted)

          6  (redacted)

          7  (redacted)

          8       A.   Yes.  This was the information we learnt from

          9  people who survived that trial.

         10       Q.   And you had some witnesses about events in

         11  Ahmici?

         12       A.   Yes.

         13       Q.   You also said that that term became known and

         14  that you believed that that term came to be because an

         15  intelligence man of the BiH army gave it the name of

         16  the action, and that he learned about that by

         17  interviewing, by questioning HVO soldiers?

         18       A.   True, even though I did hear that term, but

         19  it didn't tell me anything.  It did not mean anything

         20  to me while I was in the prison at Kaonik.

         21       Q.   But do you remember the name of that

         22  intelligence man from the BiH army who told you that?

         23       A.   That man, the intelligence man who was

         24  involved in those interviews, it was Fadil Zaninovic.

         25       Q.   But was he from Vitez? Zenica? Travnik?

Page 12648

          1       A.   He was from Vitez.

          2       Q.   You mentioned it, and I won't ask all the

          3  questions that I really should put to you about that.

          4  That man that you mentioned right now, was he Ramiz

          5  Dugalic's subordinate?

          6       A.   No.

          7       Q.   Wasn't Ramiz Dugalic the one who spoke about

          8  the term, who spread that term?

          9       A.   I did not hear it from him.

         10       Q.   You mentioned Miroslav Bralo, Cicko, and you

         11  spoke about him first when he planted a bomb and killed

         12  Salkic, and then you heard about him later on, when it

         13  came to trench digging.

         14       A.   Yes.

         15       Q.   Did you know that Cicko Bralo, after Salkic's

         16  murder, was detained, he was detained in Kaonik?

         17       A.   I did not hear anything about that.

         18       Q.   And you said, but will you please confirm it,

         19  because I'm not sure I understood you properly, when

         20  you mentioned him the second time in relation to

         21  digging, you said that one man who was at the digging,

         22  and who was not a local, had said that there was a

         23  Cicko Bralo who boasted about being Cicko Bralo or

         24  something like that?

         25       A.   Yes, a man who was imprisoned there but did

Page 12649

          1  not come from the area.

          2       Q.   So that man, who was not a local man, was

          3  affirming the identity of a man who affirmed that he

          4  was Cicko Bralo?

          5       A.   No, no, no.  He was not affirming his

          6  identity.  He said that one Cicko was boasting about.

          7       Q.   I see.  Right.  Thank you.

          8       A.   I mean, he did not know, he did not know the

          9  name or the nickname, nor could he repeat it.

         10       Q.   You then explained to us that a meeting,

         11  which the HVO had convened for 16th of April, was just

         12  a ruse, was simply to put the army of BiH to sleep and

         13  to catch them unawares.

         14       A.   Yes.

         15       Q.   Could the witness be shown D26/2, which was

         16  tendered earlier, with Witness G.  D26/2.

         17            Witness AC, will you please look at the upper

         18  left corner.  It has the date and then "News."  And

         19  this is the incidents commission in Vitez, and so on

         20  and so forth.  So, evidently, this news is broadcast

         21  that that meeting was held, and so on and so forth.

         22  And then it is proposed that every side takes care of

         23  its own criminals, that they try to hold meetings of

         24  heads of security service centres, various initiatives,

         25  and so on and so forth.  This is the announcement of

Page 12650

          1  the meeting, a public announcement of the meeting which

          2  was to be held on the 16th of April.  Is that it?

          3       A.   Well, I don't see any signatory here, so I

          4  cannot confirm your words.

          5       Q.   Correct.  This is the copy of the news read

          6  on the radio.  It was just a news item on the radio.

          7  (redacted)

          8  (redacted)

          9  (redacted)

         10  (redacted)

         11  (redacted)

         12  (redacted)

         13  (redacted)

         14       Q.   No.  Let us divide it.  A, was it broadcast

         15  at the television station (redacted)?

         16       A.   I can't really confirm that, (redacted)

         17  (redacted).  I did not -- I was not directly

         18  involved at that level.  I did not really go through

         19  the documents and approve or refuse their

         20  broadcasting.

         21       Q.   But you cannot either confirm or deny that it

         22  was broadcast?

         23       A.   No, I can't.

         24            JUDGE MAY:  It's now eleven.  Would that be a

         25  convenient moment, Mr. Kovacic?

Page 12651

          1            MR. KOVACIC:  Yes.

          2            JUDGE MAY:  We'll adjourn for half an hour.

          3                 --- Recess taken at 11 a.m.

          4                 --- On resuming at 11.35 a.m.

          5            JUDGE MAY:  Yes, Mr. Kovacic.

          6            MR. KOVACIC:  Thank you.  Thank you, Your

          7  Honour.

          8       Q.   [Interpretation] Let us round off this topic

          9  about television, that is, the news item there.  Could

         10  you confirm or deny that other radio or television

         11  stations also transmitted the same news item?

         12       A.   I cannot confirm that.  May I explain briefly

         13  why?

         14       Q.   No.  I don't think we need that.

         15       A.   No.  I cannot confirm that.

         16       Q.   Thank you.  You said that an HVO soldier, and

         17  subsequently you said he was a member of the Vitez

         18  Brigade, on the 18th of April, on the eve of the car

         19  bomb explosion in Stari Vitez, that is, the man who was

         20  guarding the building in which you lived, told all the

         21  tenants in the building to go down to the cellar.  Tell

         22  us, did you see any flashes on the soldier's uniform?

         23       A.   He had an HVO flash.

         24       Q.   Was he wearing a camouflage uniform?

         25       A.   The uniform, yes.

Page 12652

          1       Q.   He was not wearing a black uniform?

          2       A.   No.

          3       Q.   Did you know him personally?

          4       A.   I know him.  He's from Vitez, but I don't

          5  know his name.

          6       Q.   Was he one of the Vitezovi that operated in

          7  that borough?

          8       A.   No.  I think he was a member of what I might

          9  term as the rest of the HVO.  I mean, those which were

         10  not the units that you just mentioned.

         11       Q.   Very well.  That same day, you were detained

         12  and put in a cinema, and the man who escorted you was a

         13  military policeman?

         14       A.   Yes.

         15       Q.   Did he have any insignia, any flash, anything

         16  that would distinguish him as a military policeman?

         17       A.   He belonged to the military police.  They did

         18  have some flashes such as was worn by the military

         19  police at the time.

         20       Q.   Such as, for instance?

         21       A.   Well, the markings of the military police.

         22       Q.   Oh, he did have that kind of marking.

         23       A.   Yes.

         24       Q.   Thank you.  You told us there were about 600

         25  persons detained in the cinema.

Page 12653

          1       A.   Yes.

          2       Q.   I should like to tell you that witness

          3  Hendrik Morsink said here that there were, and that is

          4  day 71, first day of the transcript, line 20, he said:

          5  "I remember, and I think that in the cinema basement,"

          6  so this is a building housing the Vitez headquarters,

          7  "where we saw about 70 male detainees, all wearing

          8  civilian clothes."  So this figure is very different.

          9       A.   Well, that cannot be correct.  When I

         10  mentioned the figure, when I said "several hundred, as

         11  many as 600," I meant three places where the detained

         12  Bosniaks were, so the cinema hall, the SDK, and the

         13  chess club.

         14       Q.   But in the cinema itself you would agree that

         15  there were about 70 of them?

         16       A.   In the cinema, no.  No way.  There were many

         17  more than that.

         18       Q.   But not 600.

         19       A.   I could not count them.  Nobody cared about

         20  counting at the time.  That figure is the result of

         21  analysis of the number of precincts and the knowledge

         22  of how many of us were in each of them.

         23       Q.   Right.  Thank you.  But you will agree that

         24  only men were detained in the cinema?

         25       A.   Yes.

Page 12654

          1       Q.   And they were all of military age?

          2       A.   By and large but not only.

          3       Q.   And you remember that a few days later a

          4  number of people were released, some 20 of them,

          5  because of health problems.  You know that.

          6       A.   Yes, there were some cases.

          7       Q.   You will agree that people were released

          8  individually for health reasons and other, and then a

          9  large-ish group was released exclusively on health

         10  grounds?

         11       A.   Well, as you started, it will turn out that

         12  we were all ill, but I would not agree that they were

         13  all released for health reasons.

         14       Q.   Well, perhaps I wasn't clear enough.  A group

         15  of about 20 was released for health reasons only?

         16       A.   Well, I confirm that.

         17       Q.   Thank you.  And tell us as regards the

         18  conditions there.  And we also heard it from other

         19  witnesses, including Mr. Morsink.  Contact with

         20  families as allowed, and they brought food and other

         21  things.  Is that correct?

         22       A.   Well, one could say that.

         23       Q.   And there was a medical commission which

         24  visited the prisoners?

         25       A.   No.  Not in those precincts where I was kept.

Page 12655

          1       Q.   And elsewhere?

          2       A.   I could not confirm that.

          3       Q.   You are not aware of that?

          4       A.   I don't think so.  I don't think they came to

          5  visit them, but I can't affirm that.

          6       Q.   But are you aware that there was a certain

          7  number of people -- we do not know the exact number --

          8  who came themselves there for their personal safety?

          9       A.   I doubt that, because why didn't they stay

         10  there after others had been released?  All of who were

         11  there were taken in by force.

         12       Q.   But wouldn't we agree that chaos reigned in

         13  the town at the time?

         14       A.   In the town itself, maybe not.  If it did,

         15  the HVO units were in the town, so they would be

         16  directly responsible for any chaos that there was.

         17       Q.   Right.  In a way, you told us that the

         18  detainees in the cinema were there to protect the

         19  command in the hotel itself.  I am going to ask you now

         20  [in English] to put on ELMO a photo, tender it under

         21  Z2186.

         22            [Interpretation] Witness, you know Vitez very

         23  well, so when we get the photograph, I would like to

         24  ask you to take a look at it on the monitor.  Yes,

         25  that's it.  If you look at the bottom -- [in English] I

Page 12656

          1  would kindly ask the -- yes, that will do.  Great.

          2  Thank you.

          3            [Interpretation] In the bottom left-hand

          4  corner we see three buildings marked A, B and C.  Can

          5  you identify the A building as the hotel that we spoke

          6  about, which was where the command of the operative

          7  zone was located?

          8       A.   I know Vitez well, but looking at it from

          9  this angle, it's a little -- it looks a little strange,

         10  and I cannot say with any certainty whether that is the

         11  building you asked about.

         12       Q.   If you look at building C, above the first

         13  building, and if I tell you that that is the post

         14  office building, is it --

         15       A.   Well, it corresponds to the geometric

         16  distribution of the buildings.

         17       Q.   If I were to draw your attention to the

         18  building to the right of the hotel marked B, is that

         19  the Worker's University where you were?

         20       A.   A part of it, yes, but in this compound there

         21  is another part of the premises which should be

         22  somewhere in between A and B.

         23       Q.   If you look at it closely, it's not a very

         24  good photograph, I know, Witness, but if you take a

         25  careful look at the B, it is right beside the rear of

Page 12657

          1  the T-shaped building, and in front you can see the

          2  building that you have been talking about, the front of

          3  the building.

          4       A.   Well, geometrically speaking, then, it does

          5  reflect the position of the buildings.

          6       Q.   So that is about 150 metres between these two

          7  buildings, between building A and B?

          8       A.   Yes, if you calculate the distance from A to

          9  B, but you could have moved the A to the other end of

         10  the building, and then you would see that the distance

         11  is much smaller.

         12       Q.   Yes, but from the photograph we see the

         13  ratio.  It's not as great a distance as you just said.

         14  Thank you.

         15            Tell me, please, if the detainees were there

         16  to form a sort of protection or shield, why was that?

         17  Were there any artillery attacks?

         18       A.   Yes, there were artillery attacks after the

         19  killing in Ahmici.

         20       Q.   So the town was shelled, was it not?

         21       A.   Yes.

         22       Q.   And houses were destroyed in the centre of

         23  town?

         24       A.   Yes.

         25       Q.   Even civilian buildings; is that not right?

Page 12658

          1       A.   Of course.

          2       Q.   And the health centre as well?

          3       A.   The health centre was in the immediate

          4  vicinity.  I did not move around in that area, so I

          5  cannot confirm whether the health centre was hit and

          6  destroyed.

          7       Q.   Thank you, Witness.  Let us go back to the

          8  question of the detention.  And be as brief as possible

          9  in your answers, if you will.  You said that from the

         10  house to the cinema you were escorted by a military

         11  policeman; is that correct?

         12       A.   Yes.

         13       Q.   The cinema was protected by the military

         14  policeman, was it not?  From the cinema to the chess

         15  club you were transferred by the military police, were

         16  you not, with the group?  And the chess club was also

         17  guarded by the military police?

         18       A.   Yes.

         19       Q.   From the chess club, you were taken to

         20  Kaonik, once again transported by the military police,

         21  escorted by the military police?

         22       A.   Yes.

         23       Q.   And you were transferred back to the cinema

         24  once again by the military police; is that correct?

         25       A.   Yes.

Page 12659

          1       Q.   Thank you.  You have already told us that

          2  (redacted) in Kaonik was beaten by the guards.  Did he

          3  say that the military policeman, Petrovic Zarko, hit

          4  him?

          5       A.   I didn't catch the name.  Would you repeat

          6  the name?

          7       Q.   Zarko Petrovic.

          8       A.   I couldn't say.

          9       Q.   Thank you.  When released from the cinema,

         10  you mentioned a moment ago that you talked to Santic.

         11  Let me remind you, Witness.  You were then given the

         12  possibility of choosing.  You were offered, and we

         13  heard that some of you were prevailed upon to remain in

         14  Vitez, or you were given the choice of leaving Vitez?

         15       A.   That's correct.

         16       Q.   That is correct, is it?

         17       A.   Yes.

         18       Q.   And you signed your particular choice and

         19  said, "I am going," the other person said he wasn't

         20  going, and so on; is that correct?

         21       A.   Yes.

         22       Q.   There was 16 individuals in all, were there

         23  not?

         24       A.   About that, yes.

         25       Q.   Did Mr. Santic try to influence people and

Page 12660

          1  prevail upon them to stay, saying that matters would

          2  become normalised there?

          3       A.   There were attempts of that kind, yes, but we

          4  thought that this was a hypocritical offer, in view of

          5  the fact of what had happened in the meantime.

          6       Q.   So you didn't believe it?

          7       A.   No.

          8       Q.   Thank you.

          9       A.   And the accused Cerkez also made a statement

         10  within that context.

         11       Q.   Just one moment, please.  I would like to

         12  refer, for the purposes of the Court, to document

         13  D28/2.  That is the statement, D28/2.  It was

         14  introduced earlier on.  I am now going to ask you to

         15  take a look at the following document [in English]

         16  D28/1, which was just tendered by the Prosecution.

         17  [Interpretation] You saw the document a moment ago.

         18  Let me ask you first, you were not a member of the

         19  military units of the BiH army when you were taken into

         20  custody; is that correct?

         21       A.   Yes.

         22       Q.   The title of the document says that it is a

         23  list of prisoners of war?  You were a civilian

         24  detainee, were you not?

         25       A.   I was mobilised as a military conscript and

Page 12661

          1  my task was, (redacted)

          2  (redacted) So I cannot use that

          3  attribute in this case.

          4       Q.   But when you were arrested, you were no

          5  longer a member (redacted)

          6  (redacted)

          7       A.   Well, I worked in (redacted)

          8  (redacted)

          9       Q.   What you want to say is that your status was

         10  not quite clear cut; that is to say, whether you were a

         11  civilian or whether you were a military man?

         12       A.   Yes, it was quite clear, because I had

         13  multiple duties to attend to; some of them were of a

         14  civilian nature, others were of a military nature.

         15       Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  You notice that in

         16  the document there was some entries written by hand.

         17  Have you got an explanation for those hand-written

         18  remarks?

         19       A.   I didn't write the document, so I don't know.

         20       Q.   Some of them have been written in English.

         21       A.   Well, there are some remarks here which

         22  should be by Karajko Ramo, and it says Karajko

         23  [phoen.], which was his real name.  That was a mistake

         24  put right there.

         25       Q.   In the cinema you were registered by the Red

Page 12662

          1  Cross, were you not?

          2       A.   Yes.

          3       Q.   And this was before you went to Kaonik?

          4       A.   Yes, it was.

          5       Q.   So the fact that you were secretly

          6  transferred cannot remain a secret, because you were

          7  registered in fact?

          8       A.   Yes.  But we were transferred in the very

          9  early hours of the morning, around 5 a.m., which means,

         10  in practical terms, where nobody was able to see us

         11  being transferred to the chess club.

         12       Q.   I am sure you discussed this at length with

         13  the colleagues that shared your fate.  And was it never

         14  mentioned that this transfer was organised in such a

         15  way precisely to protect you from the extremists in

         16  Vitez?

         17       A.   Why?  We were to have been released on that

         18  particular day.

         19       Q.   Well, I just wanted to know whether anyone

         20  had ever mentioned that?

         21       A.   No.

         22       Q.   In Kaonik, were you registered by the Red

         23  Cross as a prisoner of war?

         24       A.   Yes, several days later.

         25       Q.   And you got an ID card to that effect?

Page 12663

          1       A.   We received a document, yes.

          2       Q.   Did that document state "prisoner of war"?

          3       A.   I don't know whether the Red Cross issued

          4  documents of this kind and certificates of this kind.

          5       Q.   Thank you.  This morning, at the end of the

          6  examination-in-chief, you told us that members of the

          7  military police beat you up in the courtyard of the

          8  cinema.  Were you born in Bukve?

          9       A.   No.

         10       Q.   You complained to Santic, and he said that he

         11  would inform Cerkez; is that correct?

         12       A.   Yes, it is.

         13       Q.   Cerkez had his command in that building, did

         14  he not?

         15       A.   You mean where we were?

         16       Q.   Yes.

         17       A.   Well, that was where the military police unit

         18  was located, and I can only assume that the accused

         19  Cerkez was in the building as well.

         20       Q.   You mean the headquarters of the Vitez

         21  Brigade?

         22       A.   Yes.

         23       Q.   You never heard what happened to the man who

         24  had attacked you?

         25       A.   No, I didn't.

Page 12664

          1       Q.   Do you claim that the man who attacked you

          2  was a member of the guard or did he come from outside?

          3       A.   No.  He was a member of the guard.  And not

          4  only one person, but there were two of them, and both

          5  of them stood guard at that particular time.

          6       Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  I have one more

          7  question to ask.  You mentioned the intelligence

          8  officer, Dzenanovic Fadil, who gave you the

          9  information.

         10       A.   Yes.

         11       Q.   Is he a relation to Esad Dzenanovic, the

         12  commander of the Vitez army; that is to say, the

         13  325th Mountain Brigade in Vitez?

         14       A.   They have the same surname.  Possibly they

         15  are related, but I couldn't say.  I'm not sure.

         16       Q.   You're not sure.

         17       A.   No.

         18       Q.   And just to make matters quite clear, you say

         19  you are not from Bukve, but you are from Sadovace; is

         20  that correct?

         21       A.   That is a much more definite place, and that

         22  is correct.

         23       Q.   Is it near Bukve, is it not?

         24       A.   Well, it is -- you can't see them

         25  geographically.  They're not that close.

Page 12665

          1       Q.   I have one further question.  The two

          2  soldiers that beat you up, did they not use words which

          3  you came to understand that one of these men's mothers

          4  had been killed on the previous day or that particular

          5  day, and that he was drunk, and that he found you and

          6  took it out on you?

          7       A.   Well, that's a contradictory statement.  If

          8  he was drunk, he could not have stood guard, as we said

          9  a moment ago.

         10       Q.   So there was nothing of that kind said?

         11       A.   No, there wasn't.

         12       Q.   Very well.  Thank you.

         13            MR. KOVACIC:  Thank you.  That is the end of

         14  my cross-examination.  Thank you very much.

         15            [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness, for

         16  testifying.

         17                 Cross-examined by Mr. Naumovski:

         18            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I apologise,

         19  Your Honours.  We're taking up a little time to prepare

         20  ourselves.  My learned colleague Mr. Kovacic examined

         21  the subjects that I have prepared, but I shall try not

         22  to repeat what he has just asked, and I hope that I

         23  shall be brief.

         24       Q.   Mr. AC, let me introduce myself.  My name is

         25  Mitko Naumovski. I'm an attorney from Zagreb and I'm

Page 12666

          1  one of the Defence counsel for Mr. Kordic.  I'm going

          2  to ask you a few questions now.

          3            Mr. AC, you made a statement in 1994, at the

          4  Supreme Court in Zenica, as a witness.  Do you recall

          5  that?

          6       A.   Yes, I do.

          7       Q.   After that, there were four formal statements

          8  to the OTP of this Tribunal; is that correct?

          9       A.   Yes.

         10       Q.   In addition to the latest conversation you

         11  had a few days ago.

         12       A.   Yes.

         13       Q.   Mr. AC, you spoke today about your transfer

         14  from Vitez to Kaonik.  For the first time, although you

         15  have given six statements to date, you say, during the

         16  examination-in-chief today, that a man named Marko told

         17  you that Mr. Kordic had some link -- was connected to

         18  your transfer in some way.

         19       A.   I mentioned that particular man, Marko, in

         20  one or two other statements that I made previously.

         21       Q.   But never in this context, in relation to

         22  Mr. Kordic?

         23       A.   The statements that I made earlier on were

         24  broader in context and focused on the overall situation

         25  in the Vitez municipality, because I was not told in

Page 12667

          1  precise terms to mention any individuals who could come

          2  up in this trial, and to go into all the details and

          3  parameters related to those individuals.  Had I known

          4  at the time that this would be required of me and that

          5  the accused Kordic would actually be accused and

          6  indicted, I would probably have mentioned that as a

          7  fact.

          8       Q.   Tell us, please, that particular individual

          9  named Marko, what duty did he perform at the Kaonik

         10  camp?

         11       A.   Well, according to the manner in which the

         12  other members of the HVO police behaved towards him, he

         13  gave the impression of being a sort of commander of

         14  theirs.

         15       Q.   In one of your statements, when you talked to

         16  the interviewers for several days, on 31st, 1996,

         17  January 1996, and later on, you said that Marko was the

         18  commander of the camp or prison.  Was that that same

         19  Marko?

         20       A.   Yes.  I didn't know any other Markos.

         21       Q.   And it is your last sentence in that

         22  particular statement.  So that is the only Marko that

         23  we're discussing; is that correct?

         24       A.   Yes, it is.

         25       Q.   Tell us, please, do you know whether what

Page 12668

          1  Marko said was true?

          2       A.   What do you mean?

          3       Q.   What Marko told you; do you know whether that

          4  was true?

          5       A.   Could you clarify that question?  What do you

          6  mean, "what he said"?  What did he say?

          7       Q.   That Mr. Kordic had something to do with your

          8  transfer.

          9       A.   Yes, that's what he said.  Precisely.

         10       Q.   Do you know what his source of information

         11  was, where he came by that information?

         12       A.   Well, if I identified him as the commander of

         13  the camp or the leader, then this happened on the basis

         14  of the relationship of the other members of the HVO

         15  police who were in that particular camp.  So I can only

         16  assume that the source of his information was from a

         17  very influential quarter.

         18       Q.   I understand that.  That is your conclusion.

         19  But you have no actual knowledge about that?  You saw

         20  no document to that effect or anything of that kind?

         21       A.   We were not, of course, given any documents

         22  of that kind.  We were just prisoners and waited for

         23  execution of some kind, to go trench digging.  And we

         24  know that many people who went trench digging never

         25  returned.

Page 12669

          1       Q.   So you agree with me that that is your own

          2  conclusion?

          3       A.   No, it's not my conclusion, as I said a

          4  moment ago.  That particular piece of information was

          5  unequivocally given out by Marko.

          6       Q.   Yes, I understand that.  But as to your

          7  conclusion as to his source of information, you have no

          8  actual factual evidence to bear that out, do you?

          9       A.   I know for a fact that on that particular

         10  day, when we were exchanged, that they had indeed

         11  received some documents or telegrams, but of course I

         12  did not have any insight into that.  The document -- I

         13  saw the documents from a distance; that is to say, I

         14  saw him carrying the document in his hand, but of

         15  course I did not know the contents of that document,

         16  nor could I see the contents of it.  And I think that

         17  there were many documents.  One of the documents, we

         18  signed our names and said that we were leaving the

         19  Kaonik camp on that particular day.

         20       Q.   So you didn't draw closer to the document.

         21  You didn't know who signed it, what stamp was on it, or

         22  anything like that?

         23       A.   No.  I didn't have access to it.

         24       Q.   Thank you.  I mentioned Kaonik, but you were

         25  not mistreated in Kaonik, were you, while you were

Page 12670

          1  there?

          2       A.   Well, if you mean physical mistreatment, no,

          3  but I had other forms of trauma which are much worse

          4  than the one you have just mentioned.

          5       Q.   That was what you said in one of your

          6  statements and I just repeated it, but, nevertheless,

          7  we can go forward.

          8       A.   Yes.  Those were words contained in a

          9  statement and this is an actual trial.

         10       Q.   Thank you.  We have heard many witnesses in

         11  this courtroom who were transferred with you from Vitez

         12  to Kaonik.  I don't wish to reveal a protected name,

         13  and so as to avoid repeating those names, but Their

         14  Honours are aware of them; none of them mention this

         15  allegation that you just made, that Mr. Kordic issued

         16  an order for your transfer from Vitez to Busovaca in

         17  the prison.  Not one of those witnesses said that in

         18  this courtroom.

         19       A.   That is quite possible, because, after all,

         20  we were assigned to different rooms, in small groups of

         21  a couple of men, and we had no communication amongst

         22  each other.  So that it is quite possible that what you

         23  say is right.

         24       Q.   I understand what you're saying, but you

         25  communicated with those people for years after the

Page 12671

          1  events.  So many years have gone by, and none of them

          2  appeared to have learned certain details afterwards.

          3  And to this day, not one of them conveyed this

          4  allegation in this court.

          5       A.   If what you are saying is true, that a

          6  certain number of witnesses who have passed through

          7  this courtroom did not mention this, I have already

          8  said that that is quite possible.  Now, why they didn't

          9  have any such information, one can conclude from this

         10  that I had heard it.  It is true that I did not pass

         11  this on to anyone.  So if this information is

         12  important, no one could have learnt it from me.

         13       Q.   (redacted)

         14  (redacted)

         15  (redacted).  I don't wish

         16  to repeat his name.  I assume you know who I mean?

         17       A.   Yes.  I already said that I didn't discuss it

         18  with anyone.

         19       Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  We can proceed to

         20  another topic.  Mr. Cerkez's Defence asked you in

         21  detail about the meeting on the 19th of October, 1992.

         22  I have only a few relevant to that meeting.  Where was

         23  the telephone set itself, in relation to the place

         24  where you were sitting?

         25       A.   The room was quite large.  The telephone set,

Page 12672

          1  in relation to where I was sitting, was about a couple

          2  of metres away.

          3       Q.   I see.  So it was the traditional telephone

          4  set with a receiver?

          5       A.   Yes.  Yes.

          6       Q.   Without a loudspeaker?

          7       A.   Yes, yes, without.

          8       Q.   In your earlier statements, and you repeated

          9  that yesterday or today, you said that on two

         10  occasions, through the conversation that Mr. Cerkez had

         11  with Mr. Kordic, and later on when (redacted) was

         12  speaking to him, that you heard the terms and

         13  conditions laid down by Mr. Kordic?

         14       A.   They could be heard -- they couldn't be heard

         15  directly while they were talking, but they were heard

         16  because they were repeated by the people at the other

         17  end holding the receiver.  So we heard what this person

         18  was repeating regarding the accused.

         19       Q.   Yes.  But when you made your statement on the

         20  4th of September, '95, you said, explicitly, that

         21  during the conversation that you heard Mr. Kordic

         22  saying these things and setting the terms?

         23       A.   Yes.  A part of that conversation was carried

         24  out in a way that the accused, Kordic, was, one could

         25  say, hysterically screaming into the telephone and

Page 12673

          1  making an ultimatum regarding lifting the blockade at

          2  the road on Ahmici.  The (redacted) you referred to a

          3  moment ago, actually being aware of the importance of

          4  the moment, moved the receiver away from his head, so

          5  that we were able to hear directly what was coming out

          6  of the receiver.  And as I said, very crude words were

          7  being used and very emphatic demands made, in the form

          8  of an ultimatum.

          9       Q.   And those words could be heard by all those

         10  present in the room?

         11       A.   I assume they could.  Perhaps not quite all

         12  of them, but quite a number of them, because that is

         13  the point.  The (redacted) moved the receiver

         14  away from his ear, so that he could hear clearly all

         15  the words being spoken into the receiver, as well as a

         16  certain number of people in his vicinity could hear

         17  them.

         18       Q.   Very well.  Let us not keep repeating.  The

         19  person speaking into the telephone, could we agree that

         20  he was the person who could hear best the contents of

         21  the conversation with Mr. Kordic?

         22       A.   Yes, probably.  It could be so, but not

         23  necessarily.  But I do believe that he heard quite

         24  clearly what was being said.

         25       Q.   I don't quite understand why you said that

Page 12674

          1  that need not be so.  Surely, if he is having the

          2  dialogue, he knows best what was said.

          3       A.   I said that the named witness made a point of

          4  moving away the receiver from his head, holding it like

          5  this [indicates] in his hand, and he faced the rest of

          6  us, so that I couldn't be very precise about it, but

          7  judging -- I couldn't judge how he heard all the

          8  messages conveyed to him, but I do believe that he

          9  heard most of them.

         10            The reason why he moved away the receiver, as

         11  I said a moment ago, was because he wanted some other

         12  people to hear the messages being conveyed, in addition

         13  to himself.

         14       Q.   Tell me, please --

         15            JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]

         16  Mr. Naumovski, I think we have heard enough detail

         17  about this sequence.  All you have to do is ask your

         18  client about this conversation, because he was on the

         19  phone.  The witness is telling you the situation as he

         20  saw it, and I think, unless you are contesting

         21  something, that we have heard enough detail about it.

         22  You don't need to repeat the same question several

         23  times.

         24            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I quite

         25  agree, Your Honour.  I was just going to end with this

Page 12675

          1  segment by making two statements.  With the permission

          2  of the Court, I should like to draw attention to the

          3  witness to what Mr. Kovacic said.

          4       Q.   The witness who spoke to Mr. Kordic on the

          5  phone did not mention this ultimatum regarding the

          6  roadblock at Ahmici?

          7       A.   Not in a single word did he mention it.

          8            JUDGE MAY:  This has already been put.  The

          9  witness affirms his recollection.  I don't think there

         10  is much point going further with it.

         11            Is it denied that Mr. Kordic was involved in

         12  this?  Is this evidence disputed on behalf of

         13  Mr. Kordic?

         14            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

         15  our position regarding this telephone conversation

         16  between Witness L and Mr. Kordic, we conveyed it on the

         17  33rd day of the trial, on the 15th of June, on page

         18  3.796, lines 2 to 8, when we stated what our position

         19  is clearly.  I am just reminding you of that.  But I

         20  would also like to say that Witness L, on page 6.854,

         21  towards the end of his testimony, stated explicitly

         22  what Mr. Kordic said, and our position is not

         23  substantially different from what Witness L said.  So I

         24  think there is no need for us to debate this issue with

         25  this witness any further.

Page 12676

          1            JUDGE MAY:  You can remind us what you said

          2  on day 33, now it being day 110.

          3            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I apologise.

          4  It is my mistake.  Mr. Kordic said, roughly, to Witness

          5  L, that there would be no political negotiations until

          6  Refik Lendo ceases hostilities and does not assume his

          7  personal responsibility for the attack on HVO forces in

          8  Novi Travnik.  So nothing beyond that.

          9            JUDGE MAY:  Witness AC, you've just heard

         10  what it is suggested that Dario Kordic said.  Did he

         11  say something like that or not?

         12       A.   This is just one aspect of what was discussed

         13  that night.  It is possible that Witness L may have

         14  interpreted that as being the most important part of

         15  the conversation.  As far as I am concerned, I abide by

         16  my testimony that I did indeed hear this part of the

         17  conversation that I mentioned in my testimony, that is,

         18  the ultimatum regarding lifting the roadblock at

         19  Ahmici.

         20            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I think it is

         21  up to Your Honours to adjudge on this issue, and I will

         22  not make any further questions, unless Your Honours

         23  have a question addressed to me.

         24            JUDGE MAY:  Thank you.

         25            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]

Page 12677

          1       Q.   Mr. AC, we can move on now.  You said

          2  yesterday that Mr. Kordic, at the beginning of April

          3  1993, issued some sort of an ultimatum for BiH army

          4  units to be attached and placed under the command of

          5  the HVO?

          6       A.   Yes.

          7       Q.   In what context did he say that?  Where did

          8  you hear him say it?  On what occasion?  Was it in

          9  writing?  Could you tell us in greater detail about

         10  that?

         11       A.   This is something I heard on the radio,

         12  television of Bosnia-Herzegovina, on the media, and it

         13  was broadcast on a number of occasions in local news

         14  programmes within the territory of Vitez municipality.

         15       Q.   Let me interrupt -- I apologise for

         16  interrupting you.  So this was as a news item in the

         17  news, as a news report?

         18       A.   Yes.  Yes.  Precisely.  The context in which

         19  this ultimatum appeared had to do with the

         20  municipalities which were then formally within the

         21  so-called Herceg-Bosna; that is, the municipalities

         22  which were fictitiously within the composition of such

         23  an entity.  The BiH army had to place itself under the

         24  command of the Croatian Defence Council.

         25       Q.   Tell me, please.  This news report, was it a

Page 12678

          1  lengthy report, or was it an isolated news item that

          2  was repeated?

          3       A.   It was in the media of Bosnia-Herzegovina in

          4  summary form.  On the local media, it was broadcast in

          5  greater detail.

          6       Q.   Tell me, please, was it ever stated where

          7  Mr. Kordic made this statement; at a meeting, at a

          8  gathering?

          9       A.   The media I am referring to were under the

         10  competence of the HVO as well, because these were media

         11  that were designed to serve, among others, the HVO.

         12  And since such a message, or such an item was broadcast

         13  repeatedly, if there had been any kind of error, surely

         14  somebody would have intervened, because fully

         15  acknowledging the implications of such a message,

         16  surely we must agree that such a message is of very

         17  considerable significance.

         18       Q.   You said yesterday that this ultimatum was

         19  made orally and unofficially, that it was not official,

         20  and that is why no official reaction was expected on

         21  the part of the opposing side?

         22       A.   When I said that, I meant that the accused

         23  Kordic or any other institutions, which, in this case,

         24  could have taken any steps that this implied, did not

         25  address any kind of written request; nor did it address

Page 12679

          1  anyone in particular to whom that ultimatum was

          2  addressed.  And that is why I described it as being

          3  unofficial, because when talking about members of the

          4  BiH army, it did not oblige anyone to make any kind of

          5  response.

          6       Q.   Very well.  I understand.  But I still

          7  haven't received an answer from you whether, in those

          8  broadcasts, anyone said where Mr. Kordic had made this

          9  statement, and to whom.  Had there been some kind of a

         10  meeting, a formal gathering or anything like that?

         11       A.   There was no formal meeting.  The accused

         12  Kordic and the command of the local HVO frequently used

         13  the local media to shape reports relating to the region

         14  to which those reports were addressed.  So this report

         15  was broadcast on the local media in a way that said

         16  that the accused Kordic was behind this statement.

         17       Q.   This report that was repeated was read by

         18  professional announcers on the radio and the

         19  television, wasn't it?

         20       A.   Yes.

         21       Q.   Tell me, please, I assume you are familiar

         22  with the Vance-Owen Plan and its provisions?  Roughly.

         23       A.   Yes, I am.

         24       Q.   And you must have also known about an order

         25  which the then Minister of Defence, Bozo Rajic, issued

Page 12680

          1  on the 15th of January, 1993, and which had to do with

          2  the attachment of the command of one of the army to the

          3  other, depending on the canton; that is, depending on

          4  which side had the majority in which canton?

          5       A.   Bozo Rajic?  The Minister -- what was he?

          6       Q.   Of Herceg-Bosna and Bosnia-Herzegovina for

          7  some time.

          8       A.   As a matter of fact, at that time he was not

          9  the Minister of Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

         10       Q.   No.  I'm asking you if you've heard about

         11  that order.

         12       A.   Yes, I did hear about that order.  And I

         13  didn't find it in some other form, because what this

         14  order might imply was outside the context, and I did

         15  not think that that order had any particular

         16  significance.

         17       Q.   I should like to show you D17/1.8, D17/1.8.

         18  This is an order which was based on the order that

         19  we've just talked about.  Will you pay attention to the

         20  date, please.

         21            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

         22  this is an order issued by Brigadier Milivoj Petkovic,

         23  the head of the chief of staff, on the 15th of January,

         24  1993.  And on the basis of the order of Bozo Rajic,

         25  which I just mentioned, and some items of which explain

Page 12681

          1  in what provinces which army has to place itself under

          2  the command of the other side; that is, not only

          3  province number 10, that is, the Travnik region, but

          4  all the other provinces under the Vance-Owen Plan.

          5       Q.   You must have seen it.  See this date?  It

          6  was January of 1993.  Do you know this?  Have you ever

          7  seen this order before, or at least do you know of the

          8  contents?

          9       A.   Well, the document which was issued by the

         10  chief of staff of the HVO, and it says "confidential,"

         11  but 21st of January, 1993 was the deadline.  So this

         12  order, I should say, is insignificant from the point of

         13  view of time.

         14       Q.   So to conclude, all that you said on this

         15  particular topic is based on what you heard from the

         16  media?

         17       A.   In this particular case, yes, but I should

         18  like to say the media which were controlled by the

         19  Croat Defence Council.

         20            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I do not

         21  really want to put to you what other witnesses said

         22  except, Your Honours, to explain our position to you.

         23            In the beginning of April, or before or

         24  after, Mr. Kordic never issued such an ultimatum, and

         25  he had nothing to do with these attachment or

Page 12682

          1  subordination of various army units or, rather,

          2  placement of some army units under the command of other

          3  army units.  He never had anything to do with it.

          4       Q.   We're coming to the close, Witness AC.  You

          5  spoke about this plan, 48 Hours of Ashes, and I heard

          6  about it from you for the first time.  If I understand

          7  properly, it should be the secret name, the code name

          8  of the operation.  Is that so?

          9       A.   Yes, it is.

         10       Q.   Yesterday, I believe I heard you well when

         11  you said that you received the first news about it from

         12  a member of the army of BH who had been in the Kaonik

         13  Prison before the 15th of April of 1993.

         14       A.   Yes.

         15       Q.   But I didn't hear you say how did he learn

         16  about that.

         17       A.   He was not from Vitez, Travnik, or Novi

         18  Travnik area.  He came from a region which was further

         19  removed.  And he had been an inmate there for quite

         20  some time, so that he had established contact with

         21  people, with guards who were in the prison compound,

         22  and I got this information from him.  And let me

         23  explain.  During that period of time, the man had never

         24  been out, so he could not have just come up with this

         25  term from some other source.

Page 12683

          1       Q.   So this was your information, and then -- and

          2  that is that the intelligence services that you already

          3  explained to Mr. Kovacic?

          4       A.   Yes.

          5            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I apologise,

          6  Your Honours.  Just a moment.

          7       Q.   And just to round off this topic, do you know

          8  the name of that soldier?

          9       A.   No, I don't.  I do -- I think about his lot.

         10  I know nothing about him.

         11       Q.   Thank you.

         12            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

         13  just a moment.  Let me go through my notes.  I believe

         14  that Mr. Cerkez's defence covered a considerable number

         15  of topics, and I don't have to go back to them.  I

         16  believe I can conclude my cross-examination with this.

         17  Thank you very much for your patience.

         18            MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

         19  Mr. President, I should like to make two corrections

         20  with regard to what the Defence said; notably,

         21  Mr. Kovacic and then Mr. Naumovski a couple of minutes

         22  ago.  It was said during the cross-examination that the

         23  witness mentioned the presence -- or, rather, Mr.

         24  Kajmovic did not mention the presence of the accused

         25  Mario Cerkez at that meeting on the 19th of October,

Page 12684

          1  1992.  This presence is confirmed by this witness in

          2  his testimony here, in the transcript, on page 3691.

          3            As for Mr. Naumovski, a moment ago he said

          4  that no witness mentioned the intervention of the

          5  accused Dario Kordic in the release of the detainees

          6  from the Kaonik in May 1993, and the witness was part

          7  of that.  But there was another witness who was in that

          8  group, and he mentioned expressly as Kordic who had

          9  interceded, and it was on page 4393 of the transcript.

         10            JUDGE MAY:  We're not going to have a dispute

         11  about this now.  These matters can be argued in due

         12  course.  Let's finish the witness's evidence.  Yes.

         13                 Re-examined by Mr. Lopez-Terres:

         14       Q.   As regards that meeting, Witness AC, you were

         15  shown a document about the ceasefire on 7th of October,

         16  1992, this ceasefire document, and that you saw the

         17  name Sulejman Kalco appearing there as one of those

         18  present as a signatory to this document.

         19       A.   Excuse me.  That document -- you said that

         20  document had been shown to me.  I don't remember.

         21       Q.   It is document Z246.1.

         22            MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] Perhaps

         23  the witness could be shown it once again briefly.

         24  Z246.1.  I can show it to the witness.  I have it

         25  here.  Perhaps it will be quicker if I do that.

Page 12685

          1       A.   Yes.

          2            MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

          3       Q.   You were asked a question about Marijan

          4  Skopljak and Mario Cerkez, but Marijan Skopljak does

          5  not appear on this document as a signatory to the

          6  document, but Mario Cerkez does.

          7       A.   Yes.  Yes.

          8       Q.   Mr. Sefkija Dzidic and Sulejman Kalco, in

          9  October 1992, were two persons responsible for the

         10  forces of the BH army in Vitez, weren't they?

         11       A.   Yes.

         12            JUDGE MAY:  We really have --

         13            MR. KOVACIC:  Your Honour, just one more

         14  word.

         15            JUDGE MAY:  We can't get on with the case if

         16  there are constant interruptions.  What is it,

         17  Mr. Kovacic?

         18            MR. KOVACIC:  The Prosecutor says Marijan

         19  Skopljak did not sign.  Of course he didn't.  He's not

         20  here.  He said he's here.  He's not listed.  It's

         21  another document.

         22            JUDGE MAY:  Don't worry about this.  You can

         23  make your submissions in due course.

         24            MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]

         25       Q.   I have already asked you yesterday and I

Page 12686

          1  believe you answered it, but since you were

          2  cross-examined about it, we're going back to that.

          3  Witness AC, you know that in -- that every HVO Brigade

          4  and, after all, in the BH army brigade there were

          5  units, there are units of the military police.

          6       A.   Yes.

          7       Q.   You were also asked if certain persons were

          8  taken to the chess club or to the SDK or the cinema --

          9  and you spoke about that -- in order to protect them.

         10       A.   Yes.

         11       Q.   You were asked this morning.  Do you have a

         12  feeling that on the 18th of April, in the morning, they

         13  came to look for you because they were concerned about

         14  your safety?

         15       A.   No.  I could never say that.  We were all

         16  taken into custody against our wishes, and we were

         17  there also during -- and during our stay there, a

         18  number of people were victimised.  I think about five

         19  persons.  So I think it is absurd to speak about

         20  protection.  Even where we were kept, people were being

         21  taken out and away to dig trenches and would not come

         22  back.  That is, five persons were killed, and direct

         23  responsibility should be borne by those who were

         24  responsible for our accommodation in that facility.

         25       Q.   So let us be clear.  I mean, what I'm saying

Page 12687

          1  now, what I'm putting to you is not what I am putting

          2  in my own name; it is what came from the other side.

          3            Were there Vitez Croats who were in those

          4  same places as you were, in the cinema, in the chess

          5  club, or in the building of public auditing, or were

          6  they all only Muslims?

          7       A.   There were only Muslims.

          8            MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] I should

          9  like to seize this opportunity, Mr. President, to show

         10  you a document with regard to a document which Defence

         11  produced and which was tendered at the time when the

         12  witness and others were released on the 16th of May,

         13  1993.  We do not have an official translation of it,

         14  but we made an official request that an official

         15  translation be made of this document.  This is a

         16  word "Croat" and the word "taken in" that is in the

         17  document but doesn't appear in the document.  It is

         18  people who were taken or transferred, whereas the word

         19  "detained" or "arrested" would suit better.  It is

         20  D29/2.

         21            And the last point, Mr. Witness.  We spoke

         22  about Sadovace, the locality of Sadovace?

         23       A.   Yes.

         24       Q.   The village of Sadovace, is it a village with

         25  the Muslim population, but also Croats in the village

Page 12688

          1  of Sadovace?

          2       A.   There were no Croats.

          3       Q.   And the last point which was raised by

          4  Mr. Naumovski just a moment ago.  He spoke about an

          5  ultimatum on the 15th of January, '93, and you were

          6  shown a document, which I believe was issued by General

          7  Petkovic.  Did you know, in the beginning of April '93,

          8  that the President of the Croat Community of

          9  Herceg-Bosna, Mate Boban, issued a similar ultimatum?

         10       A.   About that document, an ultimatum -- yes, I

         11  heard about it, but specifically referred to the area

         12  of Central Bosnia where we lived.  The official thing

         13  about it was what was announced by public media, and

         14  behind it was the accused Kordic.

         15       Q.   The accused Kordic.  In the French version it

         16  said "Mario Cerkez."  I have no further questions, Your

         17  Honour.

         18            JUDGE MAY:  Witness AC, that concludes your

         19  evidence, and you are now released.  Thank you very

         20  much for coming to the International Tribunal to give

         21  your evidence.  You may now go.

         22            THE WITNESS:  Thank you very much for your

         23  patience, and I wish you plenty of success in your

         24  work.

         25            JUDGE MAY:  Mr. Naumovski, does this concern

Page 12689

          1  the witness at all?

          2            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] It does, but

          3  we don't need the witness.  But if I may, I should like

          4  to respond to my learned friend.  He said that I

          5  misinterpreted something.  Just for the transcript, we

          6  do not need the presence of the witness.

          7                 [The witness withdrew]

          8            JUDGE MAY:  Now, briefly, because there is

          9  one other matter about the witness's evidence, and we

         10  need to get on with the next witness.

         11            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I do

         12  apologise.  What it is that I want to say -- quite a

         13  series of questions that I asked of this witness, and

         14  the focus on the questions was the decision on the

         15  transfer of the whole group from Vitez to Busovaca, to

         16  the prison.  And as far as I remember, no other witness

         17  spoke about it.  So the transfer, that was at the focus

         18  of my question.  That is all that I wanted to say.

         19            JUDGE MAY:  Mr. Lopez-Terres, you raised

         20  during the examination a possibility of recalling

         21  Colonel Morsink to deal with Exhibit Z591, the list of

         22  the detainees in the cinema.  In fact, the Trial

         23  Chamber has a suggestion about how this matter may be

         24  dealt with expeditiously, and I will ask Judge Bennouna

         25  to deal with it.

Page 12690

          1            JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]

          2  Mr. Lopez-Terres, very briefly, I think that instead of

          3  bringing back a witness for a very specific point, the

          4  authentication of a document, or for a statement

          5  regarding how that document was obtained, it is

          6  preferable, in our view, that this be done through a

          7  simple affidavit.

          8            And I think that your office has reminded us

          9  that we have admitted certain statements that you

         10  produced in a document that you sent to us on the 17th

         11  of January, 2000, as an affidavit.  I am referring to a

         12  statement that you gave us to remind us of the

         13  affidavits of Mr. Lazarevic, which was translated from

         14  the Croatian, I think, and in which the person simply

         15  makes a statement; and there is a formula at the end,

         16  that this has been certified that Mr. Lazarevic has

         17  indeed signed this document, by his own hand, that his

         18  identity was established -- I am translating from the

         19  English -- on the basis of the fact that he is known by

         20  the officer who took the statement, and that this was

         21  done before the Municipality Court in Vitez.  I don't

         22  know how one would translate that into French:  the

         23  Municipal Court of Vitez.

         24            This type of statement, with regard to

         25  Mr. Morsink -- he must be Dutch, isn't he?  I think it

Page 12691

          1  would -- then it would be even simpler to simply get a

          2  statement from him in -- before an authority,

          3  certifying this document.  And in that case we wouldn't

          4  have to organise a fresh appearance of that witness.

          5  Rather, you could take care of it and address such a

          6  document to the Chamber.

          7            I am taking this opportunity to say that by

          8  sending this document to us, we see that it is possible

          9  before a Municipal Court in Vitez to have this type of

         10  affidavits, certified statements, or authenticated

         11  statements, without engaging in a cross-examination or

         12  the things that we were told before.  This shows that

         13  this can be done, and this reminds us of the discussion

         14  we had previously on the question of affidavits.

         15            Thank you.

         16            MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] It is up

         17  to me to thank you, Your Honour.  The two documents you

         18  are referring to are documents coming from the

         19  procedure that you are familiar with -- not familiar

         20  with, regarding Kupreskic and others.  Two affidavits,

         21  or formal statements, were produced by the Defence

         22  regarding the character of the various accused.  And

         23  this is indeed something that we can think about, about

         24  using similar methods.  Of course we have to act in

         25  accordance with the Dutch law, and we have to respect

Page 12692

          1  the local law, domestic law.

          2            JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you

          3  for telling us that it was in the Kupreskic case, and

          4  these were statements regarding the character of the

          5  accused persons.

          6            Mr. Kovacic, you have something to add?

          7            MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] If I may, Your

          8  Honours.  I wouldn't enter into this debate regarding

          9  the form of affidavits, whether it is possible in

         10  Bosnia or not, because, obviously, we will be

         11  discussing that at the Status Conference tomorrow, and

         12  we are preparing for it.  But with regard to your

         13  proposition or your decision, if I can consider it a

         14  decision, for Mr. Morsink, instead of being called

         15  back, to be asked to make an affidavit.  Of course I

         16  will abide by your ruling, but we would ask you to

         17  allow us, after, and depending on the contents of the

         18  affidavit, that we call him.  Or it would be better for

         19  the Prosecutor to call him, because I doubt that he

         20  would react to an invitation by the Defence, except by

         21  a subpoena, which I think is unnecessary, that we be

         22  able to question him over certain circumstances.

         23            Your Honours, I have to be very cautious with

         24  that document, because I think you will understand, as

         25  this is the first document, and I claim that it is not

Page 12693

          1  truthful, but whereby the Prosecution is trying to

          2  produce evidence that the Vitez Brigade is directly

          3  linked to the detention of people in the cinema.  You

          4  know my position.  It was presented in our pre-trial

          5  brief.

          6            The only coincidence with the Vitez Brigade

          7  -- the only thing connecting the Vitez Brigade to

          8  detention is the fact that they were based in the same

          9  building.  The Vitez Brigade has nothing to do with the

         10  detention in the cinema.  That is our position.  And

         11  this is the first piece of evidence relating to it.

         12  And if a witness comes and says, "I got this document,"

         13  I have to be able to question him.

         14            JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacic,

         15  I think that we have to view matters within their

         16  context, and to try and be sensible about things.

         17            We are going to ask Colonel Morsink, or,

         18  rather, the Prosecutor is going to ask Colonel Morsink

         19  how he obtained this document, under which

         20  circumstances he obtained it.  As for the contents, and

         21  the arguments on substance, whether the Vitez Brigade

         22  was connected to the detention of these persons, that's

         23  another matter.  And you can plead on that when the

         24  time comes.  You have contested this document and its

         25  authenticity.  You asked how it was obtained.  The

Page 12694

          1  answer given was that it comes from Colonel Morsink,

          2  that he attached this document to his report.  He is

          3  not present, because the question did not arise when he

          4  was present, so we are going to ask him how he obtained

          5  that document.  And the Prosecutor is going to tell us

          6  in such-and-such a way.  That is all.

          7            Now, if you wish to see Colonel Morsink, who

          8  is in the Netherlands, no doubt -- I forgot for a

          9  moment that we are in the Netherlands and that he is

         10  Dutch.  And that is a fact, that this affects him, of

         11  course.  But this is simply a sensible way of

         12  proceeding.  We do not wish to have this person to

         13  testify on the contents itself; simply about the source

         14  of the document.  I think that's the point.

         15            MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

         16  there is just one more problem in this connection.

         17  Yesterday I did not express myself correctly, saying

         18  that the document had not been disclosed.  The

         19  Prosecution informed me kindly after the session that

         20  the document was disclosed, I think on the 14th or the

         21  17th of December last year.  That is much after Morsink

         22  came to testify.  The document was not brought by

         23  Morsink.  That is evident.  Otherwise, it would have

         24  been disclosed to us earlier on.

         25            I don't know where the document came from,

Page 12695

          1  but it was disclosed to us.  It is still on a pile in

          2  my office, which still hasn't been processed by me.

          3  That is why I said that it hasn't been disclosed, but I

          4  was corrected.

          5            The practical solution is obviously the one

          6  you suggest:  for Morsink to make an affidavit.  But,

          7  please, give me the right to recall him then, later.

          8            JUDGE MAY:  Mr. Kovacic, we have in mind your

          9  application.  In due course we'll receive the

         10  affidavit, and then, if you've got submissions about

         11  it, of course we'll hear them then.  Thank you.

         12            MR. KOVACIC:  Thank you, sir.

         13            JUDGE MAY:  Mr. Nice, it seems little point

         14  starting now.

         15            MR. NICE:  No, I agree.  Can I use one of the

         16  five minutes to deal with a couple of points?

         17            First, there is no difficulty with the next

         18  witness coming back next week.  As far as I understand

         19  from him, and I am sure that Victims and Witnesses Unit

         20  can arrange his travel to and from, so the fact that,

         21  inevitably, I think, he won't be finished this

         22  afternoon, does not present an insuperable problem.

         23            JUDGE MAY:  Can we get through his evidence

         24  in chief --

         25            MR. NICE:  I hope so.

Page 12696

          1            JUDGE MAY:  -- in that time?

          2            JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice,

          3  how much time do you think you will need for the

          4  examination-in-chief of this witness, the next

          5  witness?

          6            MR. NICE:  I don't yet know quite how much of

          7  the material is unchallenged.  And I should draw to the

          8  Court's attention, and to my learned friends'

          9  attention, that the summary they were provided earlier

         10  has been amended in quite a number of places by the

         11  latest summary.  The earlier summary was a draft, and

         12  there have been some additions and deletions and

         13  changes, so I don't know how much is going to be

         14  admitted, but I would have thought it will be about an

         15  hour and a half.  That would be my guess.

         16            He's obviously a potentially very important

         17  witness, because he's got a lot of direct contact and

         18  direct knowledge.  And my experience of him this

         19  morning is that he is not particularly expansive.  He

         20  is not one of those witnesses who needs to be reined

         21  in.  But, on the other hand, there is a limit to how

         22  far one can condense answers, when he is properly

         23  giving a full answer.  I think about an hour and a

         24  half.

         25            JUDGE MAY:  We should aim to finish his

Page 12697

          1  evidence this afternoon.

          2            MR. NICE:  Certainly.  Secondly --

          3            JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Precisely.

          4            MR. NICE:  The Chamber will recall the

          5  exhibit under seal that was considered by a witness

          6  yesterday.  975,1 is the number.  And I think that the

          7  position is that that document can only be shown to

          8  witnesses on a case-by-case basis, on the order of this

          9  Chamber.  The Chamber might think that this is exactly

         10  the sort of witness to whom that document should be

         11  shown, because he has -- he's an on-the-ground

         12  commander at the time, knows exactly or is in a

         13  position to know exactly from his point of view what

         14  was happening, and I would seek leave for him to be

         15  shown that document, read it, in order to make comments

         16  on it.

         17                 [Trial Chamber confers]

         18            JUDGE MAY:  We've considered that, but you've

         19  already had one witness commenting on it, and we think

         20  that's enough.  If there is a specific part you want to

         21  refer to, you can simply do it by asking the witness:

         22  Was it an attack on Ahmici?  Whatever the report says,

         23  without referring to it.

         24            MR. NICE:  To some degree, I've done that

         25  already this morning with the witness, but it hasn't

Page 12698

          1  found its way into the summary.  I'm quite happy to

          2  deal with it that way.  It possibly takes a little

          3  longer, but I'll be selective.

          4            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.  And without referring

          5  specifically to the document.

          6            MR. NICE:  And the Chamber will recognise,

          7  from the questions that I ask, when I reach that point,

          8  that that's what I am doing and how I am doing it.  And

          9  it may find it helpful to have the document at hand.

         10            Thank you very much.

         11            And as to next week, I've told my learned

         12  friends what the witnesses -- what the witness

         13  availability position is.  I am pretty sure that with

         14  Merdan being part heard, we'll have a full week of

         15  evidence next week.  Indeed, it may even prove to be

         16  quite difficult to squeeze it all in.

         17            And if we don't do that, we've got plenty of

         18  legal arguments that have got to be disposed of, sooner

         19  rather than later, particularly so far as the argument

         20  about Professor Cigar is concerned.  And I very much

         21  hope that we can fit that in next week at some stage.

         22            JUDGE MAY:  Very well.  We'll aim to schedule

         23  that.  We can do it tomorrow at. the Status Conference.

         24            Very well.  Half past two.

         25                 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1 p.m.

Page 12699

          1                 --- On resuming at 2.35 p.m.

          2                 [The witness entered court]

          3            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.  Let the witness take the

          4  declaration.

          5            THE WITNESS:  I solemnly declare that I will

          6  speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

          7  truth.

          8                 WITNESS:  DZEMAL MERDAN

          9                 [Witness answered through interpreter]

         10            JUDGE MAY:  If you would like to take a

         11  seat.

         12            MR. NICE:  May the witness at some stage be

         13  provided with map 2781.2 as the map that may be of

         14  general use for reference when his evidence requires

         15  it.  2781.2.

         16                 Examined by Mr. Nice:

         17       Q.   Can you tell us your full name, please?

         18       A.   Dzemal Merdan.

         19       Q.   Born in 1950, living in Busovaca until 1969,

         20  going to the national -- to the naval academy in Split

         21  and serving in the services from then on; is that

         22  correct?

         23       A.   That's correct.

         24       Q.   By September 1991, what rank had you achieved

         25  in the JNA?

Page 12700

          1       A.   The highest rank was Captain of the frigate.

          2       Q.   And did you return to Bosnia in 1991?

          3       A.   Yes.  That's correct.

          4       Q.   Did you notice, on return to Bosnia, that

          5  there was redistribution of weapons to the Territorial

          6  Defence -- I mean, from the Territorial Defence?

          7       A.   Yes.  From the barracks of the Yugoslav

          8  People's Army, weapons were being distributed to people

          9  of Serb nationality in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

         10       Q.   In April 1992, did you join the Territorial

         11  Defence, being based at the headquarters in Zenica?

         12  Were you then involved in planning and operations work

         13  in defence against the Serbs, becoming a commander of

         14  the Zenica Territorial Defence region?

         15       A.   That's correct.  Yes.  In April 1992, I

         16  became a member of the headquarters for defence and

         17  then became a member of the Territorial Defence unit

         18  for the Zenica region.

         19       Q.   We'll deal with rank.  What rank did you hold

         20  throughout 1992/1993?

         21       A.   At the time in the Territorial Defence, I did

         22  not have a rank.  In 1992 there were no ranks in the

         23  Territorial Defence.  But later on I received the rank

         24  of Brigadier.

         25       Q.   Just to complete that overall view of your

Page 12701

          1  personal history, have you stayed in the services since

          2  the conflict in 1993?

          3       A.   Yes.  From 1993, I was in the service of the

          4  army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

          5       Q.   Presently holding the rank of?

          6       A.   Today I have the rank of Brigadier-General of

          7  the Army of the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

          8       Q.   Going back, then, to 1992.  Did you, in the

          9  course of your work, meet Dario Kordic, Anto Valenta,

         10  Ignjac Kostroman, Pero Skopljak, Ivan Santic, Zoran

         11  Maric, Pero Krizanac, and Niko Grubesic on various

         12  occasions?

         13       A.   That is correct.  On different occasions I

         14  had occasion to meet the individuals that you have just

         15  enumerated.

         16       Q.   Dealing first with Valenta:  Did you see him

         17  in Vitez in the early part of 1992?

         18       A.   Yes.  I saw him on several occasions in

         19  Vitez, and I saw him at the time you mentioned, once

         20  again in Vitez.

         21       Q.   Did you see him at a public speech-making

         22  event, and if so, what, in a sentence, was his theme?

         23       A.   The people that you mentioned, I had occasion

         24  to listen to.  I heard them speak.  In concrete terms,

         25  Anto Valenta spoke in the hall in Vitez, and he spoke

Page 12702

          1  very negatively with respect to the relationships

          2  between Bosniaks and Croats in Central Bosnia.

          3       Q.   What was his theme so far as Herceg-Bosna was

          4  concerned, and to whom that territory should belong?

          5       A.   In his speech, he stressed that Herceg-Bosna

          6  was a component part of the Republic of Croatia and

          7  that the aspirations of the Croatian people would be

          8  realised to live in a common state.

          9       Q.   At roughly the same time, did you see, not in

         10  the flesh, but a tape of Dario Kordic making a speech?

         11       A.   Yes, I did see a tape in which Dario Kordic

         12  was speaking.

         13       Q.   His theme on the topic of Central Bosnia?

         14       A.   In one particular speech in the cultural

         15  centre in Busovaca.  I think it was the beginning of

         16  1992.  I don't remember the exact date.  It was a large

         17  rally to denote the victory of the HDZ.  He spoke of

         18  Herceg-Bosna, and he said that the aspirations of the

         19  Croatian people of Bosnia-Herzegovina would be realised

         20  to live in one state, to live in the state of the

         21  Republic of Croatia.

         22       Q.   A word about the HOS unit or units.  Did such

         23  units exist in early 1992?  Were they the same in all

         24  areas where they existed, if more than one?

         25       A.   In Bosnia-Herzegovina, especially in Central

Page 12703

          1  Bosnia -- that is to say, the zone of responsibility of

          2  which I was in charge -- HOS units did exist by a

          3  decision of the wartime presidency of the Republic of

          4  Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I can't remember the exact date

          5  and the number of the order.  It regulated that all

          6  units in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina be placed

          7  under the command of the Territorial Defence of

          8  Bosnia-Herzegovina.

          9            In the zone of responsibility of the Zenica

         10  region, the HOS unit of Zenica was placed under the

         11  command of the Territorial Defence, whereas the other

         12  HOS unit or other HOS units which were located in the

         13  area were not placed under the command of the

         14  Territorial Defence of the Republic of

         15  Bosnia-Herzegovina.

         16       Q.   And before that, did HOS units in different

         17  areas have the same objectives or did they have

         18  differing objectives?

         19       A.   I can state for the HOS unit in the zone of

         20  responsibility of the 3rd Corps -- that is to say, HOS

         21  Zenica, which executed orders -- and its goal was the

         22  same as the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina; that is to say,

         23  defence from the Serbian aggression.

         24            As to the other HOS units, I cannot comment

         25  on that, because they were not in the zone of

Page 12704

          1  responsibility under my command; that is to say, under

          2  the command of the 3rd Corps.

          3       Q.   What happened to the HOS unit that was under

          4  the command of the Territorial Defence of Zenica at the

          5  outbreak of the conflict?

          6       A.   The HOS unit in the Zenica municipality was

          7  composed of the Croatian population from

          8  Bosnia-Herzegovina, and the Muslim population, that is

          9  to say Bosniaks from Bosnia-Herzegovina.  And when the

         10  global conflicts broke out, quite simply, it was

         11  extinguished; it disappeared.  And part of the people

         12  of -- the Bosniaks, the Muslim religion, went to join

         13  the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, whereas a portion, as

         14  far as I know, of the members of the HOS unit, who were

         15  of Croatian ethnicity, moved to the Lasva River Valley.

         16       Q.   The Sarajevo airport negotiations at which

         17  Blaskic initially appeared, were you aware of those

         18  negotiations?

         19       A.   I knew that negotiations were being conducted

         20  between the Territorial Defence, that is to say the

         21  army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the

         22  representatives of the Serbs.  And later on members of

         23  the Croatian Defence Council were included into those

         24  negotiations.  And on the tape, the cassette, I saw

         25  that Blaskic promoted the interests of the Croatian

Page 12705

          1  Defence Council.  After him, that was done by Dario

          2  Kordic.  He advocated them.  And I no longer saw

          3  Blaskic appear in the negotiations.

          4       Q.   Did you also see any tape of how -- perhaps

          5  not a tape -- a media transmission of how Kordic

          6  introduced himself at that time?

          7       A.   I had meetings with Kordic, where he

          8  introduced himself as Colonel of the HVO.  And I saw

          9  him on tape.  He also introduced himself as a Colonel

         10  of the HVO on these.

         11       Q.   Did you learn why Kordic had replaced Blaskic

         12  as the negotiator or spokesman?

         13       A.   I don't know the real reason, but I can only

         14  assume that Blaskic did not satisfy the demands of the

         15  Croatian Defence Council, because on several occasions

         16  Blaskic, as far as I know, was not able to make

         17  on-the-spot decisions, but this had to be done by

         18  Kordic.  So I can only assume that that was the reason

         19  why Blaskic was replaced.

         20       Q.   We needn't trouble with paragraph 10.  It's

         21  another list of names.  Paragraph 11.  Did you meet

         22  Cerkez on more than one occasion?

         23       A.   Yes, I did.  That is correct.

         24       Q.   You never saw him involved in any direct

         25  wrongdoing, killing, or anything of that sort, did

Page 12706

          1  you?

          2       A.   I did not see that, no.

          3       Q.   What were his responsibilities at the time?

          4       A.   What I know is that Mario Cerkez was the

          5  commander of the HVO, in the Zenica municipality, and

          6  that he had a zone of responsibility in his

          7  municipality.  I know for sure, and as a military man I

          8  am aware of the fact that commanders of units are

          9  responsible for the state of affairs in their zone of

         10  responsibility, and that they are duty-bound by their

         11  military duties to undertake adequate measures.  And

         12  therefore I consider that, as a military man, Mario

         13  Cerkez is responsible for the zone of responsibility

         14  under his command.

         15       Q.   And, in the course of that period of time,

         16  did those under his command, as you defined them, to

         17  your knowledge, engage in any activities that were not

         18  justified; and if so, what?

         19       A.   Well, I can quote several cases, instances.

         20  The most grievous were the events in Ahmici and in

         21  Stari Vitez.

         22       Q.   At the time of your first statement, an

         23  organogram was prepared, not by you, but at the time of

         24  your making the statement.

         25            May the witness see that.  It's the first of

Page 12707

          1  the series of exhibits.  2792.  The whole stack can be

          2  distributed, if that's convenient.  In fact, it's on

          3  the bottom of the stack.  It's a document that looks

          4  like this.  It's nearly at the bottom of the stack.

          5  This document, prepared in the case of your speaking to

          6  representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor, shows

          7  at the top Franjo Tudjman, and then Mate Boban, and

          8  then Dario Kordic.  And then we see on the diagonal:

          9  Valenta, Kostroman, Skopljak.  Then directly underneath

         10  Kordic we see a line, from the right to the left,

         11  Krizanac, Maric and Santic.  Are those three political

         12  figures?

         13       A.   Yes, they are political figures, as far as I

         14  know.  I have in mind Pero Krizanac, Zoran Maric and

         15  Ivan Santic, when I say that.

         16            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I apologise,

         17  Your Honours.  I would just like to ask the Prosecutor

         18  to show us the source of the document, and when it was

         19  compiled, and by whom, so that we can follow this line

         20  of proceeding better.

         21            MR. NICE:  It was prepared, as I understand

         22  it, by a representative of the Office of the Prosecutor

         23  in the course of discussions with this witness.  So

         24  it's not physically his document.  He didn't draw it.

         25  It was prepared at a time when he was discussing

Page 12708

          1  matters.  And he's going to comment on it, qualify it

          2  and, as we shall see, eliminate from our consideration

          3  certain parts of it.

          4       Q.   Dealing with those three political figures,

          5  did you, in your experience, find them to be responding

          6  to or subordinate to Kordic, in the way represented on

          7  this diagram?

          8       A.   I consider that they were responsible to

          9  Dario Kordic, and this they demonstrated on practice on

         10  several occasions, at least to the best of my knowledge

         11  and information.

         12       Q.   Moving to the left, we have Furundzija and

         13  Darko Kraljevic.  What do you say about their

         14  subordination to Kordic?

         15       A.   For Darko Kraljevic, I can say that he was

         16  commander of the special forces in Vitez.  And on

         17  several occasions I was witness to the fact that

         18  Blaskic was not able to command Darko Kraljevic, but

         19  somebody was always asked about this.  And I think that

         20  somebody was Kordic.

         21            As for Anto Furundzija, I cannot make the

         22  same claims, because I am not acquainted with the

         23  case.

         24       Q.   Moving to the left, to the end of that line,

         25  there is a reference to Slobodan Praljak.  Tell us

Page 12709

          1  about him.

          2       A.   Slobodan Praljak, I got to know in 1992.  For

          3  the first time, I think it was in the month of October,

          4  or somewhere thereabouts.  And I had a meeting with

          5  Mr. Praljak in Novi Travnik, and in Travnik.  And

          6  during Christmas in Vitez, I think it was in 1992.

          7            I think that during the time Slobodan Praljak

          8  represented himself as the General of the Croatian

          9  army, that he wielded great influence in the system of

         10  leadership and command because he was able to exert

         11  pressure on Tihomir Blaskic.

         12       Q.   The way the diagram appears has a line

         13  tracing down from "Praljak" through "Petkovic" to

         14  "Blaskic" and then on down.  Does that reflect your

         15  view of the chain of authority or not?  And notice,

         16  please, that off to the side of "Blaskic" and

         17  underneath "Petkovic" are "Ivica Rajic" and "Zeljko

         18  Siljeg."

         19       A.   In several occasions, in contact with Tihomir

         20  Blaskic, he told me that Milivoj Petkovic -- he told me

         21  that Milivoj Petkovic was his superior, and I had

         22  occasion to confirm this at two meetings that I was

         23  present, with the presence of Milivoj Petkovic as

         24  well.  I think that was sufficient for me to realise

         25  that Milivoj Petkovic commanded Tihomir Blaskic at the

Page 12710

          1  time.

          2            As far as Zeljko Siljeg is concerned, I met

          3  him in 1992 in the office of Tihomir Blaskic at the

          4  Vitez Hotel in Vitez, and he was introduced as the

          5  commander of the zone of Prozor/Tomislavgrad.

          6            As far as Ivica Rajic is concerned, I met him

          7  at a meeting in Kiseljak.  And I cannot claim that

          8  Milivoj Petkovic was directly in command of him as

          9  opposed to Tihomir Blaskic and Zeljko Siljeg.  I

         10  consider that Milivoj Petkovic was in command of these

         11  two individuals at that time.

         12       Q.   Going down that same line of authority, after

         13  "Franjo Nakic" we have a line of names:  "Filipovic,"

         14  "Krizanovic," "Cerkez," and "Nenad Santic."  Is there

         15  a comment you want to make about the way they are

         16  positioned there?

         17       A.   I can comment, yes.  I know for sure that

         18  Franjo Nakic was the deputy of Tihomir Blaskic for the

         19  Operative Zone in that region, and that Filip Filipovic

         20  was, for a time, the commander of the brigade of the

         21  HVO in Travnik.  I know that in that system of command

         22  Mario Cerkez was the commander of the HVO Brigade in

         23  Vitez.  And here we need another direct link going up

         24  to Tihomir Blaskic, brigade commanders of the HVO of

         25  Busovaca, Zenica, Vares, Zepce, Usora.

Page 12711

          1            As far as Anto Krizanovic is concerned, and

          2  Nenad Santic, I think that they were in the chain of

          3  command under the command of Mario Cerkez in the Vitez

          4  area.

          5       Q.   Was there HVO at Novi Travnik as well?

          6       A.   Yes.  I forgot to mention the brigade of the

          7  HVO in Novi Travnik.

          8       Q.   Paragraph --

          9            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

         10            MR. NICE:

         11       Q.   Paragraph 12.  What was your belief, on the

         12  basis of experience, of the relationship between Kordic

         13  and Blaskic?

         14       A.   On several occasions, I had occasion to see

         15  that Kordic had a great influence on Blaskic, and that

         16  in decisive moments when decisions were to be made, it

         17  was Dario Kordic who made the decisions, and that

         18  Tihomir Blaskic was to execute what Kordic had ordered

         19  him to do or told him to do.

         20       Q.   What was Blaskic's behaviour when decisions

         21  had to be made at meetings involving HVO and the ABiH

         22  when he was on his own, he was unaccompanied?  What did

         23  he do?

         24       A.   Blaskic then asked to have consultations or

         25  he asked that the meeting be continued the following

Page 12712

          1  day.

          2       Q.   In early May 1992, was a meeting held at the

          3  Hotel Tisa in Busovaca?  If so, can you tell us some of

          4  the senior HVO who were present?

          5       A.   Yes.  That is correct.  I don't remember the

          6  exact date, but it was May 1992.  A meeting was held at

          7  the Tisa Hotel in Busovaca, and at that time the

          8  command post of the HVO at that meeting was Dario

          9  Kordic, Anto Sliskovic, Ignjac Kostroman, and I think

         10  Pasko was also there.  Yes.  Pasko was also there, but

         11  I can't remember his name, but it was Pasko.  I know

         12  later on he became the chief of the military police in

         13  Vitez, because once when I happened to be arrested, he

         14  freed me in Vitez.

         15       Q.   How were they dressed?  What was the meeting

         16  about?

         17       A.   They all wore military camouflage uniforms.

         18  The flashes, I believe they were the ones of the HVO.

         19  And we were talking about how to oppose the Serb

         20  aggression, but we could not find common language.  We

         21  could not agree on that point because our views

         22  differed.

         23       Q.   On or about the 8th of May, was there an

         24  agreement concerning the local JNA barracks at Draga

         25  made, or indeed at Draga and Kacuni?

Page 12713

          1       A.   On the 8th of May, an agreement was reached

          2  about the barracks at Kaonik, and a little earlier an

          3  agreement on the barracks at Draga and at Silo were

          4  agreed.  Those decisions of the war presidency of the

          5  municipality of Busovaca were not complied with, and

          6  were not complied with by Dario Kordic.

          7            MR. NICE:  I'm not sure if the map will help,

          8  but if the witness has the map -- thank you.  The

          9  Chamber, I know, will be acquainted with most of these

         10  places already, but the witness can, first of all,

         11  familiarise himself with the map so that he knows what

         12  it is he's looking at.  The Chamber will know where

         13  Kaonik is for sure, and Kacuni, but it may be that

         14  Draga --

         15       Q.   Just tell us a bit about that.

         16       A.   Draga is to the west of the village of Polje

         17  [indicates], opposite the road from Busovaca to

         18  Kacuni.  If you're moving -- if you look from Busovaca

         19  to Kacuni, the Draga barracks was on the right-hand

         20  side, although they also had some area on the left-hand

         21  side.  But all the facilities at the time were on the

         22  right-hand side of the road.

         23       Q.   How did the Draga barracks compare in size

         24  with the Kacuni barracks?

         25       A.   At a session of the war presidency in

Page 12714

          1  Busovaca, when the barracks at Draga and Silo --

          2  rather, Kacuni -- were discussed, it was decided that

          3  the equipment of the former JNA should be divided

          4  between the Territorial Defence and the Croat Defence

          5  Council.  However, this was not done, because the HVO,

          6  headed by Dario Kordic, entered the Draga barracks and

          7  allowed the TO to enter the Silo barracks at Kacuni.

          8  And at that news, we left the municipal hall in

          9  Busovaca and, headed by the chief of the municipality,

         10  Zoran Maric, who was also the president of the war

         11  presidency, we came to the barracks, and Dario Kordic

         12  would not allow us to enter the barracks.

         13            As for the facilities, I know it for a fact

         14  that the facilities at the Draga barracks number about

         15  25 to 30, and in Kacuni, the barracks which we call the

         16  Silo, had only two facilities.  I believe that Dario

         17  Kordic thought -- that is, I'm guessing -- that there

         18  was more materiel and equipment of the Yugoslav

         19  People's Army, and that's why he did what he did.

         20       Q.   On the 19th of May, did the Territorial

         21  Defence go to Kaonik to get their supplies?  In the

         22  event, what happened?

         23       A.   I said that on the 8th of May an agreement

         24  had been reached at the war presidency of the Busovaca

         25  municipality.  It was chaired by the president of the

Page 12715

          1  war presidency, Zoran Maric, and it was decided there

          2  that the equipment and materiel in the Kaonik barracks

          3  should be divided.

          4            On the basis of that, the president of the

          5  Territorial Defence set off to distribute that

          6  materiel.  However, this vehicle, or vehicles -- I

          7  cannot remember.  I think there were two vehicles --

          8  but the first vehicle was intercepted in the area of

          9  Senduline Kuce and fire was opened on them by somebody

         10  from the HVO from a point.  A member of the Croat

         11  Defence Council was severely wounded then, and a member

         12  of the Territorial Defence was inflicted some light

         13  injuries.

         14       Q.   On the 10th of May, was an order issued by

         15  Dario Kordic for your arrest?

         16            MR. NICE:  That's already been tendered.

         17  100.  Exhibit 100, Your Honours.

         18       Q.   Were you held in the police station for two

         19  nights and then released?

         20       A.   Yes, that is correct.

         21       Q.   During your captivity, what happened to you?

         22       A.   During my captivity, I was ill-treated,

         23  beaten, and I still suffer the consequences of it.

         24  They wanted me to order that the Territorial Defence

         25  surrender to the Croat Defence Council, and I refused

Page 12716

          1  that, because, true, I was the Territorial Defence

          2  commander, but the presidency of the Republic of

          3  Bosnia-Herzegovina could decide about this surrender.

          4  I couldn't bear that responsibility as an individual.

          5  I could not surrender the units of the Territorial

          6  Defence to the Croat Defence Council.  Then they were

          7  asking me about the situation in the barracks, what

          8  armaments they had, who was arming them, and so on and

          9  so forth.  I fared very badly.

         10            In the morning, when Bruno came to see me, he

         11  told me that it had been ordered by Kordic; that is,

         12  that it was his order to arrest me and interrogate me.

         13            After that, I had an opportunity of seeing

         14  the order which said what Bruno had told me, and I

         15  attached a copy of this order to this Tribunal.

         16       Q.   The photographs, Your Honours, we'll find --

         17  I think they are self-evident, which ones are the

         18  photographs.  They are 2793,1 through to 6.  If they

         19  could be made available to the witness.  We can deal

         20  with them quite swiftly, although not so swiftly as to

         21  deny the technical booth the opportunity to focus on

         22  them for public display.  But as soon as we've done

         23  that, we'll move to the next photograph, please, which

         24  is similar.

         25            What are the injuries shown there, please,

Page 12717

          1  Mr. Merdan?  Anything shown on that photograph that you

          2  want to draw to our attention?  The later ones are more

          3  obvious.

          4       A.   On this photograph you can't see the injuries

          5  here.  Those were pictures taken from the profile.  I

          6  think these photographs were made some three or five

          7  days after my release.  And I also had findings from

          8  the hospital, after I was released, but unfortunately I

          9  lost those findings, so I can't show it to the Court.

         10            Other photographs show it very clearly, what

         11  I looked like some four days after my release from

         12  prison.

         13            I need to mention here that the people in

         14  Bosnia-Herzegovina believe that a person who had

         15  received a very severe blow and has serious bruises,

         16  that the skin of a freshly slaughtered lamb should be

         17  applied to those injuries, and that is what they did.

         18  And that now this is the first time I am saying it,

         19  because a Croat from Busovaca, who slaughtered a lamb

         20  and gave him the hide so as to treat the wounds, the

         21  injuries inflicted on me by the Croat Defence Council.

         22  Will you please show other photographs.

         23       Q.   This photograph of your back --

         24       A.   On this photograph one can see clearly the

         25  principal blows that were dealt to me, and I still

Page 12718

          1  suffer the consequences.

          2       Q.   The following one has lines --

          3       A.   This here is only from a different angle, but

          4  this photograph is made on the same day, at the same

          5  time.

          6       Q.   Can you tell us how those lines across your

          7  back --

          8       A.   Yes.  To the right, this is a major bruise,

          9  and when it is cold, it still turns blue.  And I also

         10  have problems with my internal organs.

         11       Q.   Thank you very much.  Can the witness now,

         12  please, have two exhibits, which may be on the top of

         13  your stack.  101,1 and 101,2.  Did you bring the

         14  originals of these two documents to Court today?

         15       A.   Let me see the second document, please.  Yes,

         16  it is true; I brought the originals of these

         17  documents.  These are the copies of the originals.  The

         18  document that you can see on your monitors now is a

         19  document in which I declare that I will help the

         20  investigation which will be conducted, if it is proven

         21  that I am responsible for the events at Kaonik, in the

         22  barracks of Kaonik.

         23            And the second document, we see that it was

         24  signed by Anto Sliskovic for the regional headquarters,

         25  which was headed by Dario Kordic.  It was again signed

Page 12719

          1  by Anto Sliskovic.  I don't know why.

          2            The second document is the authorisation, the

          3  permit for my free movement through Herceg-Bosna,

          4  because I had some problems.  I was arrested on several

          5  occasions.  And on various occasions I tried to solve

          6  conflicts in Central Bosnia by peaceful means, or to

          7  prevent them from escalating.  And that was why Dario

          8  Kordic issued me this authorisation, this free power

          9  for the territory of Herceg-Bosna, and I am in

         10  possession of the original of those documents.

         11       Q.   That first document, which you signed, why

         12  did you sign it?  How did it come about that you signed

         13  it?

         14       A.   I signed it under the circumstances when I

         15  could leave Busovaca, because I had been set free from

         16  prison under the condition that I stayed in Busovaca.

         17  My family was in Zenica, and I asked to go to Zenica.

         18  And, besides, the place of my work was in Zenica, in

         19  the headquarters of the Territorial Defence of the

         20  region of Zenica.  And they released me only after I

         21  signed this.

         22            After that date I went -- I came back to

         23  Busovaca several times to visit my relatives, and

         24  always had trouble.  But with the permit that was

         25  issued me by Dario Kordic, allowed me to come to

Page 12720

          1  Busovaca and visit my relatives.

          2       Q.   Paragraph 18.  After May the 10th, did the

          3  war presidency and the Ministry of Interior function as

          4  legal institutions?

          5       A.   No, never again did it function as legal

          6  state institutions of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

          7       Q.   We needn't look at Exhibit 111.  It's already

          8  been tendered.

          9            Paragraph 19.  Were you arrested again in the

         10  autumn of 1992?

         11       A.   Yes, I was arrested several times in the

         12  course of 1992.  And that includes the autumn of '92.

         13       Q.   Who arrested you on that occasion?  Where

         14  were you taken and what happened?

         15       A.   In the autumn of 1992, on one occasion I was

         16  arrested in Vitez.  It was done by HOS members

         17  commanded by Kraljevic.  And I was taken to the

         18  secondary school in Vitez, which is across the street

         19  from the Hotel Vitez.  We called it the vocational

         20  school.

         21            After that I was transferred to the Vitez

         22  Hotel to Tihomir Blaskic, and I requested that Tihomir

         23  Blaskic release me, because even then I was on a

         24  mission of peace.  However, Blaskic could not do it,

         25  because Darko Kraljevic opposed it, and they began to

Page 12721

          1  have an argument in my presence.  It was quite evident

          2  that Blaskic had decided that they should not argue in

          3  front of me.  So they withdrew to the office next

          4  door.  They called by telephone somebody, I don't know

          5  whom, but I believe it was Dario Kordic, who then

          6  allowed them to release me and turn me back my weapon,

          7  and it was done.

          8       Q.   Kraljevic dressed how, and what did you know

          9  of his responsibilities?

         10       A.   Kraljevic was dressed in a black uniform, and

         11  he had HOS insignia.  All black, as far as I know.  And

         12  I also received some information that he was the

         13  commander of a special unit called Vitezovi, and the

         14  Bosniak people had most complaints against them, that

         15  they were intercepting them on the road.  I mean, his

         16  unit intercepted on the road, seized the property of

         17  Bosniaks.  Two vehicles were confiscated from the

         18  district headquarters of the Territorial Defence in

         19  Zenica, and I insisted that they be returned, but these

         20  vehicles were never returned.

         21       Q.   Just to clarify something in the transcript.

         22  What insignia do you say Kraljevic had?

         23       A.   HOS insignia.  H-O-S.

         24       Q.   I come to the second Novi Travnik conflict in

         25  October 1992.  In the course of that, did you go to

Page 12722

          1  Kruscica?

          2       A.   Yes.  Quite.  Prior to the second conflict in

          3  Novi Travnik, I received the information that the Croat

          4  Council had started from Busovaca.  And after the

          5  experience, whenever some unit of the HVO started in

          6  some direction, then an incident would take place in

          7  one of the localities in the Lasva River Valley.  So

          8  realising that there would be an incident, I left the

          9  district Defence headquarters, and with my escort I

         10  headed off for Blaskic's command.

         11            From the Stari Vitez Hotel, they directed me

         12  to the area of Kruscica, to the hotel called Lovac,

         13  where the command post of the military area of Vitez

         14  was at that time.  There I found an operative whose

         15  name was Mijo Bozic.  I know him very well, because for

         16  a while we worked together at the Territorial Defence

         17  headquarters in Zenica.  And when I told him about the

         18  situation on the ground, I asked him to enable me to

         19  speak to Blaskic.  He answered that Blaskic was absent,

         20  that Blaskic was in Tomislavgrad.

         21            Since I already had some experience from

         22  before that Dario Kordic was the one who could order to

         23  stop the units, I asked Mr. Mijo Bozic to talk to Dario

         24  Kordic.  However, Mijo Bozic either turned a deaf ear

         25  on that or he really could not establish the link or

Page 12723

          1  establish the connection with Dario Kordic.  And after

          2  several hours, during which I insisted on talking to

          3  Dario Kordic, all my attempts were thwarted.  So I went

          4  back to Zenica.

          5            When I arrived in Zenica, I learned that

          6  Gornji Vakuf -- sorry, I'm wrong -- that Novi Travnik

          7  had been attacked.

          8       Q.   Were you ever able to find where Kordic was

          9  or had been at the time you'd been trying to track him

         10  down in Blaskic's absence in Tomislavgrad?

         11       A.   No.  I could not establish communication with

         12  Kordic at the time, even though I tried to do so

         13  several times.

         14       Q.   Were you ever able to track down who'd been

         15  leading the attack on Novi Travnik?

         16       A.   According to intelligence information I

         17  received at the headquarters from the service

         18  responsible for that and which monitored the movements

         19  of the HVO units, I received the information that that

         20  unit was headed by Dario Kordic in an APC.  There was

         21  an APC which Dario Kordic often used to drive around

         22  the Lasva River Valley.

         23       Q.   On the 20th of October, the Novi Travnik

         24  incident still continuing, what was the position about

         25  negotiations for a ceasefire?

Page 12724

          1       A.   I was in Zenica during that conflict.  I was

          2  not in Novi Travnik.  But in Novi Travnik, the

          3  commander of the Territorial Defence was Mr. Refik

          4  Lendo.

          5            It is quite obvious that he refused to talk

          6  to Refik Lendo about a reconciliation or the prevention

          7  of the escalation of the conflict.  They wanted me.  I

          8  believe it was Kordic who insisted to talk to me.  He

          9  thought I believed that he did not think that Lendo was

         10  the competent man to discuss the situation.  I gladly

         11  responded, but a meeting between me and Kordic did not

         12  take place on that occasion.

         13            MR. NICE:  If the Court would just give me a

         14  minute to sort something out.

         15       Q.   In order to negotiate, did you need any

         16  further authority?

         17       A.   Before I came out to the ground, yes, I

         18  sought the authorisation and received it from my

         19  superior.  At that time it was Mr. Sefer Halilovic.

         20            MR. NICE:  Your Honours and my learned

         21  friends will be able to find this.  Rather than burden

         22  you with pieces of paper, which is something I'll avoid

         23  wherever possible, you'll be able to find this in the

         24  diary of Colonel Stewart, produced yesterday as

         25  Exhibit D51/1, and it appears at page 23 of that diary,

Page 12725

          1  for the 20th of October.

          2            I'm grateful to Ms. Verhaag and

          3  Ms. Bauer.  They say I can't save you the bit of paper

          4  because we haven't got the translation.  So it has to

          5  come as Exhibit 241.1.  It's a further extract of the

          6  diary, and it sets out -- I don't know why it's in

          7  Colonel Stewart's diary in this way, but it sets out

          8  the authorisation.  If the Chamber could just have

          9  241.1.  And if the witness could have it as well.  It's

         10  in the package, I think, that you've already got.

         11            You see the authority in B/C/S at the foot of

         12  our page 189835, and then the Chamber's provided with a

         13  translation of that, which is Halilovic's authority to

         14  this witness to negotiate a ceasefire in Grude.

         15            As so often, efforts to save time and paper

         16  prove to be confounded by events.

         17       Q.   Right.  Paragraph 23.  Were there joint

         18  command meetings in Travnik in October, or about

         19  October 1992, between the ABiH and the HVO, where a man

         20  called Praljak featured?

         21       A.   Yes.  That is correct.  In October, a joint

         22  command started to be formed consisting of

         23  representatives of the Territorial Defence and the

         24  Croatian Defence Council.  We had an extremely

         25  important operative meeting where we agreed on the

Page 12726

          1  direction of the assignment of forces.  And in the

          2  operations room, as we called it then, both Praljak and

          3  Kordic were present, as well as Blaskic.

          4       Q.   Who was Praljak?  What did he tell you about

          5  himself?

          6       A.   When he first introduced himself, Praljak was

          7  wearing a camouflage uniform, and he introduced himself

          8  as a General of the Croatian army.

          9       Q.   What part did he play then and thereafter?

         10       A.   What Praljak was saying at the time, both in

         11  Travnik and Novi Travnik, was listened to by Blaskic.

         12  Comments on the part of Kordic were not made then

         13  because probably it was a question of a purely military

         14  deployment of forces, but Dario Kordic followed closely

         15  what was happening in the operations room.

         16            Slobodan Praljak proposed a deployment of

         17  forces with which I did not agree, and our views

         18  differed in particular regarding deployment of forces,

         19  at a meeting in the secondary school in Novi Travnik,

         20  which was attended by the commander of the Territorial

         21  Defence of Novi Travnik, Mr. Refik Lendo.

         22       Q.   Staying briefly with Praljak:  Did he stay in

         23  the area for some time and have a continuing influence

         24  or say in the ceasefire arrangements?

         25       A.   I said that I saw Praljak on three occasions

Page 12727

          1  in Travnik, Novi Travnik, and Vitez.  I don't know

          2  whether he stayed in the Lasva Valley throughout that

          3  time, but when he was there, there were no discussions

          4  on suspending or discontinuing the conflict between the

          5  army of Bosnia-Herzegovina -- rather, the Territorial

          6  Defence at the time and the HVO.  The only thing

          7  discussed at the time was the joint deployment of

          8  forces.

          9       Q.   The exhibit on this topic, then, is 372,2 --

         10  may the witness have that from the stack -- which we

         11  can see is a report of yours, General Merdan, dated the

         12  17th of January, 1993.  And is it right that in the

         13  second paragraph of the first sheet it reads:

         14            "Around 1730 hours the HVO representatives,

         15  Colonels Miro Andric and Zeljko Siljeg, arrived.  The

         16  preceding night, at around 2200 hours, they had gone to

         17  Prozor for consultations with General Slobodan

         18  Praljak."

         19       A.   Yes, that is correct.  This occurred during

         20  the conflict in Gornji Vakuf.  These negotiations were

         21  taking place in a room that was under UNPROFOR's

         22  command, and it is correct that a decision could not be

         23  taken to hold the conflict in Gornji Vakuf the previous

         24  night.  In the presence of UNPROFOR, Zeljko Siljeg

         25  asked to go to Prozor for consultations.  He went

Page 12728

          1  there, and, as stated in this report, he returned and

          2  stated that he had had consultations with Slobodan

          3  Praljak.  That is a statement made by Zeljko Siljeg.

          4       Q.   Meetings of the joint command at about this

          5  time, did Kordic attend those?  If so, what was your

          6  view, perhaps developing view, of his influence?

          7       A.   On a number of occasions we tried, in the

          8  Lasva Valley, to establish a joint command, but we did

          9  not succeed -- the formation of a joint command in

         10  Travnik, and I referred to it and said that Dario

         11  Kordic was present at subsequent events to form a joint

         12  command -- subsequent attempts.  At that time the

         13  location was in the post office.  Again we tried to set

         14  up joint units and a joint command, but we did not

         15  succeed.

         16            At the command post of the joint command,

         17  which was supposed to be formed in the post office in

         18  Travnik, Dario Kordic did not attend.  That command

         19  functioned, in my view, as a military man, very poorly,

         20  until the conflict in Travnik -- I think this was in

         21  May '93.  It may have been even the beginning of June,

         22  when the attempt to form a joint command between the

         23  army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Croatian Defence

         24  Council failed once again.

         25       Q.   Do you have any views -- did you have any

Page 12729

          1  views at that time on Kordic's role, or not?

          2       A.   Yes, I did have my own views about it.  On a

          3  number of occasions these views were proven correct,

          4  and those were that Dario Kordic could take decisions,

          5  and he did take decisions.  And I can assert that Dario

          6  Kordic had a great deal of influence over Blaskic.

          7       Q.   Paragraph 26.  There was an attack on Kacuni

          8  in January '93.  Did you hear at some stage an

          9  audiotape that touched on this issue?  If so, when did

         10  you hear the tape, and where?

         11       A.   Yes.  Prior to the conflict in Busovaca --

         12  that conflict was preceded by a number of events, which

         13  had their own chronology -- I had occasion to hear an

         14  audiotape on which the voice of Grubesic can be

         15  identified, who is requesting additional grenades and

         16  ammunition for combat operations.  I think that at the

         17  other end of the line was Kordic, but I cannot assert

         18  that with certainty.

         19       Q.   Do you know whether that tape still exists,

         20  and if so, where it may be found?

         21       A.   I believe that audiotape does exist, and that

         22  it can be found in the central archives of the army,

         23  today the Army of the Federation.

         24       Q.   Paragraph 27.  Anto Sliskovic, please.  Who

         25  was he?  What did you see him do?  To whom did he

Page 12730

          1  respond or answer?

          2       A.   In my personal view, Anto Sliskovic was a

          3  highly interesting individual.  He had a great deal of

          4  influence on the special units of the military police

          5  in Busovaca, and even further afield.  I had

          6  information from the intelligence service that he was a

          7  representative of the SIS for Central Bosnia, S-I-S,

          8  and, in fact, that he himself introduced himself in

          9  that way.  This information reached me through a

         10  Croat.

         11            A particularly interesting case is the murder

         12  of a Ibrahim Hodzic in Busovaca.  And with the

         13  monitoring mission I requested to go on the spot, but

         14  the military police would not allow it.  Sliskovic was

         15  consulted, at least that is what the commander of the

         16  military police told us, and he did not give his

         17  approval.

         18            Another such case was in Novi Travnik,

         19  travelling from Gornji Vakuf to Zenica.  I was passing

         20  through Novi Travnik.  I was stopped in Novi Travnik by

         21  persons at the checkpoint.  They wanted to take me

         22  someplace, I don't know where, but I had the good

         23  fortune that Anto Sliskovic came by.  Whether it was by

         24  chance or by intention, I do not know.  But he helped

         25  in getting me released.

Page 12731

          1            The head of the patrol would not carry out

          2  Sliskovic's orders.  Sliskovic went back to Novi

          3  Travnik for consultations, as he said.  Upon his

          4  return, he took aside the commander of the checkpoint,

          5  and after that I was released.

          6       Q.   To whom did Sliskovic answer --

          7            THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, Mr. Nice.

          8            MR. NICE:

          9       Q.   Sorry.  To whom did Sliskovic answer?

         10       A.   I am convinced that he answered to Dario

         11  Kordic.  Because, you see, the statement that I have

         12  produced was signed by Sliskovic on behalf of Dario

         13  Kordic.  I have the original document in my

         14  possession.

         15       Q.   Paragraph 30.  You were a deputy commander of

         16  the 3rd Corps from the 18th of November until the 16th

         17  of February of 1995; is that correct?

         18       A.   Yes.  The order was written on that date.

         19  But the 3rd Corps started functioning on the 1st of

         20  December, 1992.

         21       Q.   You were involved in negotiations with the

         22  HVO in February '93, in Busovaca; and in April '93, in

         23  Vitez, and elsewhere?  Is that right?

         24       A.   That is correct.  The negotiations in

         25  Busovaca were numerous, as were those in Vitez, as well

Page 12732

          1  as in other places.  There were many talks and

          2  negotiations.  And all of them were attended by

          3  representatives of the European Monitoring Mission.

          4       Q.   Z518,1, please.  This document is addressed

          5  to whom?

          6       A.   I have not had occasion to see this document

          7  before, and I am unable to comment on it in any

          8  detail.  I don't know to whom this document was

          9  addressed, because, obviously, this is the -- the

         10  addressee has been crossed out.

         11       Q.   You have no recollection of it, or of its

         12  content?

         13       A.   No, I have not had an opportunity to see it

         14  before.

         15       Q.   It may be that I -- it may be that I'd better

         16  withdraw this document.  I don't think the witness is

         17  going to be able to help us much further in relation to

         18  it, unless he was able to express any view on the

         19  contents, but it looks a little unlikely.

         20            JUDGE MAY:  Yes, let's give it back.

         21            MR. NICE:  Yes, I think so.

         22       Q.   Paragraph 32.  The 2nd of April, '93, what

         23  was the position about any joint command formed or to

         24  be formed between the HVO and the ABiH?

         25       A.   I didn't quite get the date, I'm sorry.

Page 12733

          1       Q.   The 2nd of April, '93.

          2       A.   I said that there were several attempts to

          3  form a joint command.

          4       Q.   In particular, did Boban and Izetbegovic ever

          5  get involved at that level in such an agreement, to

          6  your knowledge or belief?

          7       A.   I have reports that there were such

          8  agreements, and that a position taken was that a joint

          9  command should be formed.  I cannot now recollect

         10  exactly where such contacts were made, but I know for

         11  sure that there was such a meeting.

         12       Q.   And so do you know, one way or another,

         13  whether such an agreement was signed, and if so, which

         14  parties signed it or not?

         15       A.   I think that this document exists, and that

         16  it was signed by both sides, and that it is in the

         17  archives.

         18       Q.   Your Honour, I simply draw to your attention

         19  that the first line, which speaks of being signed by

         20  both parties, may be inaccurate.  We have documents

         21  that are only signed by Boban, and haven't been able to

         22  track down a jointly signed one.

         23            What was the agreement, so far as you

         24  understood it, so far as units from outside the area?

         25  What had to happen to them?

Page 12734

          1       A.   It is well known that in the Lasva Valley

          2  there were units from the Republic of Croatia.  We

          3  requested, in reports to our superior command, that

          4  influence be brought to bear for units of the Republic

          5  of Croatia to be withdrawn from the territory of the

          6  Lasva Valley and the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina as

          7  a whole.

          8       Q.   And this agreement, did it result in a

          9  functioning of a joint command for some days?

         10       A.   We really did invest additional efforts for

         11  the joint command to start operating in the way in

         12  which we soldiers believe a joint command should

         13  operate, for orders to be issued and to be

         14  implemented.  But, as I said, the joint command never

         15  became properly operational at that time.

         16       Q.   Can the witness see 908,1 first and then

         17  1147,2.  Sorry, 1144,2.

         18            Looking at 980.1, which is annex to a

         19  milinfosum, I think there is something you want to

         20  correct about this or qualify about this.  It sets out

         21  the various people for the joint command in May 1993.

         22  Your name is there, but if we turn over the page to the

         23  Busovaca Joint Commission, do you have a comment to

         24  make on the accuracy of that?

         25       A.   This refers to a joint command and a joint

Page 12735

          1  commission.  The joint command, as I have already said,

          2  was to have been formed in Travnik in the post office.

          3  It functioned partially but very badly.  And the second

          4  document refers to a joint commission which engaged in

          5  negotiations and talks to halt conflicts between the

          6  army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Croatian Defence

          7  Council.

          8       Q.   And as to the persons named on that second

          9  document or second part of the document, is there a

         10  correction or qualification you want to make, I think?

         11       A.   This Arif, I think it should be Asim Lusija,

         12  the name.

         13       Q.   May the witness then see --

         14            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

         15  I beg your pardon.  Could the Prosecutor please tell

         16  us, this annex to the milinfosum, is it one that we've

         17  already received from you?

         18            JUDGE MAY:  I don't want these sort of things

         19  going across the Chamber.  If there is any objection,

         20  address it to the Bench.  Otherwise, you can deal with

         21  it during the adjournment.  This can be dealt with

         22  during the adjournment.

         23            MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,

         24  Your Honour.

         25            MR. NICE:  Then the next document, 1144.2.

Page 12736

          1       Q.   Does this reflect what was intended?

          2       A.   Yes.  This was the organogram of the joint

          3  command which was to have been formed, from the highest

          4  level down.

          5       Q.   Very well.  Thank you very much.

          6            MR. NICE:  Paragraph 33.  Before we come to

          7  that, can the witness see a document already produced,

          8  which is 660.1 and 660.1A.  They can be dealt with

          9  quite briefly.  They're documents already produced,

         10  purporting to be documents from the HVO, dated the

         11  15th of April, to commanders of Brigades 1 to 12.

         12            In the English version, if the Chamber will

         13  be good enough to look at the last few lines of the

         14  first sheet.

         15       Q.   And if the witness would go, in the original,

         16  to -- yes, about half of the way down.

         17            It's said here that one of the main

         18  assignments is, of course, liquidation of the

         19  OZ command.  And considering their sabotage activities,

         20  it's complete destruction, for which, in the night of

         21  the 14th/15th April, they brought forces to the

         22  structures of the fire house in Vitez, the school in

         23  Kruscica, and the Nadioci and Ahmici villages, in order

         24  to set up a blockade, and to Gornja Rovna and Pezici,

         25  in order to prevent aid.  And the 8th of April 1993,

Page 12737

          1  they brought Krizici to Travnik for intervention

          2  activity.

          3            Can you tell us, please, if what is said

          4  there is true or otherwise?

          5       A.   What is stated there is not true.

          6       Q.   Completely false or what?

          7       A.   Completely false.

          8       Q.   On the 15th of April, paragraph 33, regular

          9  ABiH units from Vitez were deployed where?

         10       A.   Could you please repeat the date?

         11       Q.   April the 15th, 1993.

         12       A.   On the 15th of April, all available forces of

         13  the army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina were

         14  directed to the front against the Serb aggressor, in

         15  the zone of responsibility of the 3rd Corps and partly

         16  the zone of responsibility defending the city of

         17  Sarajevo in the direction of Visoko.

         18       Q.   Did you travel through that area on the

         19  afternoon of the 15th of April?

         20       A.   Yes, I did.  I was returning from Vitez, from

         21  a premises occupied by the European Monitoring Mission,

         22  and I was going to Zenica.  And passing by the Sunce

         23  restaurant, which is close to the Kaonik Junction, I

         24  noticed 30 to 50 well-armed members of the Croatian

         25  Defence Council, in black uniforms, with automatic

Page 12738

          1  weapons.

          2       Q.   How did that fit or otherwise with agreements

          3  in place at the time?

          4       A.   It did not.  We had previously agreed at

          5  negotiations that I had attended on behalf of the army

          6  of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina or, rather, the

          7  Territorial Defence, and Mr. Franjo Nakic on behalf of

          8  the HVO, and we had agreed that we would not allow

          9  gathering of large numbers of members of the HVO or the

         10  BH army, and this was in breach of that agreement.

         11            MR. NICE:  Can the witness have the map

         12  again, please?  I know the witness had asked me earlier

         13  to be sure to provide him with paper and pencil if he

         14  wanted to make notes.  I don't know if he has any, and

         15  I don't know if he's inconvenienced by not having any.

         16       Q.   General Merdan, are you happy to function

         17  without paper and pencil?

         18       A.   For the moment, I don't need paper or

         19  pencil.

         20       Q.   When you returned to Zenica, did you receive

         21  a phone call?

         22       A.   I did.  Yes, I was called up.

         23       Q.   And --

         24       A.   That telephone call conveyed information to

         25  me that an armed unit of the HVO was moving along the

Page 12739

          1  axis toward the village of Putis.  Let me show you on

          2  the map, please.  [Indicates].  Towards the village of

          3  Putis.

          4            At the time, as one of the people responsible

          5  and in command, I ordered village guards to be

          6  reinforced along these lines, because at the time we

          7  had no units in those areas.  I said a moment ago where

          8  the army units of Bosnia and Herzegovina were

          9  deployed.  And there was an attack launch here on these

         10  features:  Putis, Jelena, Loncari [indicates].  We had

         11  one dead and two injured men in this area.

         12            I didn't know what would happen next.  We are

         13  talking about the night between the 15th and the 16th.

         14       Q.   Just show us how near or far Putis is from

         15  Ahmici.

         16       A.   [Indicates].  The distance is about 8 to

         17  10 kilometres, because the scale here, as the crow

         18  flies, it could be 4 to 5 kilometres.

         19       Q.   In military terms, the effect of your being

         20  told about and the reality of the attack on Putis and

         21  thereabouts.

         22       A.   Analysing the events after they occurred --

         23  because I didn't know on the 16th, in the morning, what

         24  had happened; I learnt about it a day later, that a

         25  massacre had occurred in Ahmici -- in military terms it

Page 12740

          1  is my opinion that this was a massive attack on the

          2  area or, rather, that it was an ancillary area on Putis

          3  and Loncari, but that the main target of attack was

          4  Ahmici.

          5       Q.   The caller, was it a man or a woman?  Did he

          6  or she give a name?  If not, did you ever find out who

          7  it was?

          8       A.   It was a male voice.  I can assume who it may

          9  have been, but I cannot assert with certainty.

         10       Q.   And you never found out who it was?

         11       A.   No, not with certainty.  I never found out

         12  who it was.

         13       Q.   That same night, the HVO Commander Totic was

         14  kidnapped.  By whom?  Were you involved at all or was

         15  the ABiH command involved at all?

         16       A.   I learnt that Totic had been kidnapped.

         17  Afterwards, I learnt that this had been done by a group

         18  of Arabs who were in the area.  The planning and

         19  execution of the kidnapping of Mr. Totic, regarding

         20  that I can say with full responsibility that it had not

         21  been planned, organised, or implemented by the army of

         22  the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  It was later

         23  established that Totic had been kidnapped so as to

         24  exchange him for the Arabs that had been detained by

         25  the HVO in the Kaonik prison, the well-known Kaonik

Page 12741

          1  prison.  I have to emphasise that.

          2       Q.   At the time, 15th/16th of April, apart

          3  from -- were there some soldiers in Stari Vitez, and

          4  apart from that, were any of the village guards under

          5  ABiH command?

          6       A.   Village guard was not under the command of

          7  the army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

          8  because village guards were organised to prevent the

          9  entry of criminals in the villages, to prevent looting

         10  and plunder.

         11            In Stari Vitez we had a detachment of the

         12  BH army which in part was having a rest there and

         13  partly were operating in the direction of Turbe.  I

         14  must say that the BH army units took shifts on the

         15  front lines, because we did not have enough materiel or

         16  weapons, so that a small part, a very small part of the

         17  army units were having their leave in Stari Vitez, but

         18  they had no weapons with them because all the weapons

         19  were being used in operations in the direction of

         20  Turbe.

         21            MR. NICE:  I'm going to ask the witness a few

         22  questions that are not off -- or not, rather, on the

         23  summary.  The Chamber will understand why.  These

         24  questions may be capable --

         25       A.   Could the interpretation be a little louder,

Page 12742

          1  please?  Yes.  I think it is a little better now.

          2            MR. NICE:

          3       Q.   These questions, General Merdan, may be

          4  capable of yes/no answers, and if they are capable of

          5  such answers, please give them in order to save time.

          6            Between the 10th and the 15th of April, 1993,

          7  was there any regrouping of units by the 3rd Corps in

          8  the territory of Vitez?

          9       A.   No.

         10       Q.   To your knowledge, on the 14th of April of

         11  1993, was there any infiltration of particularly

         12  well-armed MOS members into Ahmici?

         13       A.   No.  The army of the Republic of

         14  Bosnia-Herzegovina did not include any MOS units, I

         15  mean the Muslim units.  The army of the Republic of

         16  Bosnia-Herzegovina had only one unit with the prefix

         17  "Muslim," and that was the 7th Glories and Knighted

         18  Brigade.  And the reason is that amongst the units of

         19  the army of Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina some were of

         20  other confessions, both Catholic and Orthodox, so that

         21  they could not be called Muslim.  And the 7th Muslim

         22  Brigade included only members of Muslim faith, of

         23  Islamic faith.

         24            MR. NICE:  Your Honour, I see the time, and I

         25  don't know what the timetable of the Chamber is.  I

Page 12743

          1  know that it was intending to make a little more time

          2  available this afternoon, but I also know the position

          3  of the interpreters.

          4            JUDGE MAY:  Quarter past 4,00.

          5            MR. NICE:  Thank you.

          6       Q.   Did you travel, between the 15th of April and

          7  thereafter, did you travel as a member of the joint

          8  commission around the area, in an armoured vehicle, I

          9  think?

         10       A.   Yes.  I travelled there repeatedly through

         11  that area, because I was asking the ECMM to allow me to

         12  attend meetings, either those of the joint commission

         13  or the joint command, without any particular trouble,

         14  without any problem.

         15       Q.   And on the 16th of April, did you pass the

         16  Dubravica school?  Tell us what you saw and what

         17  happened.

         18       A.   On the 16th of April I passed, escorting the

         19  ECMM in an UNPROFOR vehicle, by the elementary school

         20  in Dubravica.  And when we reached the agreed place, I

         21  received information that Bosniaks, Muslims were being

         22  held captive in that elementary school.  I requested

         23  the ECMM to go back to that school, and we returned to

         24  that school.  But apart from a couple of HVO soldiers,

         25  I did not find a single prisoner there.

Page 12744

          1       Q.   I have put that as being on the 16th of

          2  April.  It may be an error.  Tell us when that incident

          3  happened, if you can recall?

          4       A.   I believe that was the date.  But it was

          5  April, at any rate.  It was April where the conflicts

          6  in the area of Vitez began to escalate.  But I would

          7  really have to consult my notebook to see the date.

          8  But there is a record of the ECMM.

          9       Q.   21st of April, was there an agreement

         10  involving Petkovic?

         11       A.   Yes, and there was a meeting with Petkovic.

         12  Yes, an agreement and understanding, but it was not

         13  complied with.

         14       Q.   Notwithstanding that agreement, what actually

         15  happened to Muslim villages between Kiseljak and

         16  Busovaca?

         17       A.   This is not my area of responsibility, but I

         18  was attending a meeting at Kiseljak, and an attack was

         19  launched on Muslim villages in the area, Kazagici,

         20  Svinjarevo, and a number of other Muslim villages.  I

         21  wouldn't be able to list them without looking at a

         22  map.

         23       Q.   Between January and April, 1993, did you see

         24  anything of soldiers or units belonging to the HV

         25  rather than the HVO in the area?

Page 12745

          1       A.   I did not see units, but I saw individuals in

          2  the Lasva River Valley.  One of them -- at least he had

          3  a patch like that.  I couldn't identify him.  A

          4  combatant, that is a soldier who was killed somewhere

          5  between Donji and Gornji Rovna near Vitez.  And I also

          6  had the occasion of setting free a group of captured

          7  HVO members in Gornji Vakuf.  One of them said that he

          8  came from Osijek and that he was a member of the

          9  Croatian army.

         10       Q.   I think you saw a video in 1994, is that

         11  correct, where there was a HV soldier being spoken to?

         12       A.   Yes, I did have an occasion to see that

         13  tape.

         14       Q.   You've had an opportunity, in this building

         15  in the last day or so, of looking at a video which

         16  shows a soldier.  Are you able to say, one way or

         17  another, whether this video is the same as the one you

         18  saw or not?

         19       A.   That videotape, I can recognise a man who

         20  spoke to a member of the Croatian army.  As far as I

         21  can see, he is a member of the volunteer regiment.  My

         22  information says that another, a different soldier was

         23  captured, who was an artillery man, who came from an

         24  artillery unit from Osijek.  So that now, without

         25  consulting my notebooks, I really could not affirm

Page 12746

          1  whether it was the same soldier or not.

          2            MR. NICE:  Your Honour, the video contains

          3  two segments, one of a tank, which the witness can help

          4  us with on grounds of similarity; the other being an

          5  interview with a soldier producing, on the video, his

          6  identity card.  He can also be of assistance whether

          7  it's actually the man that this witness saw or not.

          8            The interview with the soldier is quite long,

          9  but I propose to deal with it very briefly by asking

         10  the technical booth, once they start on that passage,

         11  to accelerate right through to the place where the man

         12  produces his documentation, nevertheless, providing to

         13  my learned friends, as they already have it, the full

         14  transcript of the material that's available.

         15            Now, I see the time.  I don't know if we can

         16  do that now.

         17            JUDGE MAY:  How long is that likely to take?

         18  If we can deal with it, it might be convenient to do

         19  so.

         20            MR. NICE:  Let's see if we can deal with it.

         21       Q.   The first bit shows a tank.  It's

         22  Exhibit 2643,4(a) for the B/C/S, but for those of us

         23  who don't speak the language, 4(b).  And I think it

         24  starts on the third sheet, which is in the English

         25  version, at 2444 at the top.  That deals with the

Page 12747

          1  tank.  And that doesn't take very long.  And then I can

          2  ask the witness one question about the tank and then we

          3  come onto the soldier.  With the technical booth's

          4  co-operation.

          5            The witness might like to have the

          6  transcript.  He can have my copy, which is 2463,4(a)

          7  before him at, I think, the third sheet.  The video is

          8  2463,5.  There is a sound track, I think, to this.

          9                 [Video played]

         10            MR. NICE:  I am looking to the video booth

         11  for the sound track.

         12            First of all, while we are dealing with the

         13  technical problems arising from that tape, and we can

         14  see what's said about the tape, about the tank on our

         15  transcripts, if they are accurate.  But, General

         16  Merdan, what can you say about tanks of that sort?

         17       A.   These are medium-range tanks.  They made part

         18  of the Yugoslav People's Army armament and, to all

         19  intents and purposes, after some barracks were taken by

         20  units which were fighting against the Yugoslav People's

         21  Army, they captured those tanks and used them on the

         22  front.

         23            MR. NICE:  I don't know if the next part of

         24  the tape has got its sound track.  If it has, it picks

         25  up in the English version at page 5.  And if we can

Page 12748

          1  work it, after a few questions and answers I would ask

          2  the technical booth to accelerate the tape through to

          3  what is our page 12, which will become immediately

          4  obvious on the screen, because that's the place where

          5  the soldier produces his card.

          6            It may be that we should cut our losses and

          7  resume --

          8            JUDGE MAY:  There is no point remaining

          9  here.  I am concerned about the relevance of this tape,

         10  this transcript, rather.  We've seen the tape.  The

         11  witness has dealt with what he can deal with.

         12            MR. NICE:  Yes.

         13            JUDGE MAY:  It seems to me that this document

         14  has not been identified.  We don't know what it is.

         15            MR. NICE:  No.  Of course the transcript

         16  reveals what the soldier says he was, so it's, of

         17  course, admissible, because there is no exclusionary

         18  rule that bars material of that category.  And he

         19  doesn't support what he says simply verbally, because

         20  he produces the document, which, although it's hard to

         21  see, is nevertheless described, and going to show

         22  indeed that he was --

         23            JUDGE MAY:  Do you want to have this tape

         24  admitted?

         25            MR. NICE:  Yes, I do.

Page 12749

          1            JUDGE MAY:  Part of the evidence?

          2            MR. NICE:  Yes, please.

          3            JUDGE MAY:  Where does it come from?

          4            MR. NICE:  Produced to us as one of a number

          5  of tapes, and it's the man speaking who identifies

          6  where he comes from, which is part of Croatia.

          7            JUDGE MAY:  It may be that the right course

          8  of the moment is not to admit it.  We will hear further

          9  argument on Tuesday, if you want it into evidence.  It

         10  seems this witness can't deal with it in any great

         11  detail, anyway.

         12            MR. NICE:  No, because he's uncertain about

         13  whether it's the same man or not.

         14            JUDGE MAY:  Very well.  We'll adjourn now.

         15            General Merdan, I'm afraid that we can't

         16  finish your evidence today, so we must ask you to come

         17  back next Tuesday to conclude it.  Meanwhile, could you

         18  remember not to speak to anybody about your evidence

         19  until it's over.  That does include members of the OTP.

         20  And, of course, please don't let anybody speak to you

         21  about it.  Could you be back, please, as I say, for

         22  half past nine on Tuesday.

         23       A.   Mr. President, I shall do as you ask.  Thank

         24  you.

         25            JUDGE MAY:  Thank you.  Meanwhile, we shall

Page 12750

          1  adjourn for a Status Conference tomorrow morning, half

          2  past nine.

          3                 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

          4                 at 4.20 p.m., to be reconvened on

          5                 Thursday, the 20th day of January,

          6                 2000 at 9.30 a.m.