Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 19569

1 Thursday, 25 May 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Judge,

6 please.

7 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Judge May

8 has got a very bad cold. He won't be able to sit

9 today. Therefore, we decided to sit not having the

10 full bench in order to make progress on testimony and

11 also related to -- we're going to apply Rule 15 bis.

12 Why do we do so? Because we're convinced that this is

13 very much in the interests of justice that we should

14 sit.

15 In there is a no objection from either party,

16 we do suggest that we could sit based on Rule 15 bis,

17 which provides that the other two Judges of the bench,

18 if they believe that this is in the interests of

19 justice, be allowed to sit.

20 Do you have any objections?

21 MR. NICE: No objection.

22 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] No objection,

23 Your Honour.

24 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 Therefore, we're going to call the next witness. I was

Page 19570

1 told that there may be a request from Mr. Naumovski for

2 protective measures.

3 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Indeed, Your

4 Honours. Could we just go into private session just

5 for a couple of minutes, please.

6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 19571

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 19572

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)


Page 19573

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 19574

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 19575

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)


Page 19576

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 [Open session]

18 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Witness DF, we can move on. When you left

20 the hell of war, if I may put it that way, and came to

21 Busovaca, it was a relief for you because in Busovaca

22 it was a different way of life. It was relatively

23 normal, you could say.

24 A. Yes, because there was no war there yet.

25 Q. So all that you left formally in your own

Page 19577

1 town you could find here. That is, there was food and

2 electricity and water and all the like, in a nutshell?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Tell us, your family, the four of you, were

5 just a few individuals in a huge wave of refugees who

6 arrived in October 1992 from Jajce and that part of

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina to Busovaca. Could you tell me in

8 your estimate how many refugees arrived from Jajce

9 then?

10 A. I think that some 15.000 left Jajce, and some

11 10.000 of them stayed in Busovaca. Others went on.

12 Q. Very well. Tell us, of that number, of that

13 total number of refugees who arrived in Central Bosnia

14 from Jajce, Kotor Varos and so on, what was the

15 percentage of Muslims?

16 A. Over 50 per cent.

17 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

18 we have prepared an exhibit, namely this is part of the

19 job of this witness. These are the records -- this is

20 the record of refugees who arrived in Busovaca and who

21 are registered with the local branch of the Red Cross.

22 This is a list, but the witness will explain

23 it. It's not my place to comment on it. We have

24 already given it to the Registry. It looks quite

25 bulky, but the information contained in it is simple

Page 19578

1 and I believe it will save time.

2 THE REGISTRAR: The document will be marked

3 D234/1.

4 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Even though

5 this exhibit has several sections, it is one document,

6 so we do not need more numbers than one.

7 Q. Witness DF, we shall not be going through

8 this, but just in principle, whose names are in this

9 list before you? Are these the rosters that were drawn

10 up by the municipal Red Cross in Busovaca, and could

11 you tell us what categories of refugees were included

12 in these registers and which were not?

13 A. We registered all those who came to register

14 with the Red Cross in Busovaca, and those who came had

15 to register so that we could put them on the list and

16 so that they would be entitled to humanitarian aid.

17 So here, you have the ordinal number, the

18 full name, date of birth, the place that the refugees

19 arrived from, occupation, ethnic origin, where they had

20 been accommodated. So these the are the -- this is the

21 information that we had in these lists.

22 Q. However, these records are not comprehensive

23 and they do not cover all the refugees who arrived in

24 Busovaca during the war because there were very large

25 categories of displaced persons who are not included

Page 19579

1 there; isn't that right?

2 A. Quite right. These records do not include

3 lists of displaced persons from the municipality of

4 Busovaca who came after people from Jajce, Kotor Varos,

5 that is, from the area of Kacuni. We did not know how

6 to register them because we thought it would last only

7 a short period of time, and I would go home in no time

8 at all.

9 So when they came to the Red Cross, we would

10 issue them cards for the humanitarian relief. They

11 were called -- they contained the name of the family

12 provider and the number of members of the family, and

13 the area they had come from.

14 Q. So, excuse me, these ex-police, the expelled

15 persons from the territory of the municipality are not

16 included in these records.

17 A. No.

18 Q. Very well. Which other categories are not

19 included here?

20 A. These records also do not contain, not in

21 full, they do have some, but not most of Travnik people

22 who began to arrive in Busovaca in June 1993 and people

23 from Zenica, because on a couple of occasions, they

24 arrived and we kept a separate record of them, simply

25 to manage better the distribution of the humanitarian

Page 19580

1 relief. Because if somebody said that he'd arrived

2 from Travnik, then it was easier for us to find his

3 card for humanitarian relief, because, of course,

4 everything we did, we did manually.

5 Q. Could you tell us, in your assessment during

6 the distribution of humanitarian relief and so on and

7 so forth, how many refugees arrived from the area of

8 the Travnik municipality in June 1993?

9 A. I believe there were over 2.500.

10 Q. You mean who arrived in the municipality of

11 Busovaca?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And will you please tell us something about

14 the number of people from Zenica who arrived in large

15 numbers in April 1993?

16 A. After April, I believe there were some 1.000

17 of them.

18 Q. Very well. I think we have said enough about

19 the structure of the register you have before you. Can

20 we then conclude that this record, by and large,

21 includes all refugees, until April 1993, who arrived in

22 the municipality of Busovaca, with the exception of

23 those who had been displaced within the municipal

24 territory?

25 A. Yes.

Page 19581

1 Q. Can we then move on to this influx of

2 refugees. In the first wave, were you expelled from

3 that part of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Jajce, Kotor Varos,

4 and so on, and when did the second big wave arrive in

5 Busovaca?

6 A. The second big wave was in February 1993,

7 when they arrived from the territory of the

8 municipality of Busovaca, that is, from a locality

9 called Kacuni.

10 Q. Very well. But when was the next big wave

11 from outside the municipality of Busovaca? You've

12 already said that, but let us try to clarify it, to

13 clarify those stages in which the refugees arrived.

14 A. In April, also some people were displaced

15 from Putis, Osijek [sic], and also displaced people

16 from Zenica, and then people from Travnik in June

17 1993.

18 Q. Will you tell us, please, how many thousands

19 of families from Travnik arrived in the territory of

20 the old municipality? You gave us the number a moment

21 ago. Roughly. Yes. You mentioned 2.000 something.

22 Did you mean individuals or families?

23 A. Individuals.

24 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] My colleague

25 is reminding me. I think that there is a little

Page 19582

1 mistake in the transcript, page 13, line 13. It is the

2 names of the villages are Putis and Jelinak, not the

3 town of Osijek, which is in Croatia.

4 Q. Is that correct, Witness?

5 A. Yes, it was the village of Jelinak.

6 Q. Witness, what you describe now is a general

7 picture of these waves of displaced persons arriving in

8 Busovaca. How did that reflect on the supplies of food

9 and accommodation and generally the quality of life in

10 Busovaca?

11 A. It was very difficult. When there were only

12 people from Jajce, I thought that there was enough

13 food, but the refugees kept coming and food stocks

14 became lower and lower and the situation more and more

15 difficult.

16 Q. Was it at all possible to find accommodation

17 after the large wave of people from Travnik, the

18 displaced persons, arrived in Busovaca in June 1993?

19 A. No. When the displaced people from Jajce

20 arrived in Busovaca, every accommodation was taken,

21 including a lot of weekend homes or vacation homes

22 which were in the area.

23 Q. Does that mean that there simply wasn't

24 enough room for everyone or with great difficulties

25 people were accommodated, at least those whom you

Page 19583

1 received?

2 A. No, there was not enough room. We used all

3 kinds of ways to accommodate people.

4 Q. Let me also ask you, as a resident of

5 Busovaca in that period, not only a person who worked

6 with the displaced people, did this large influx of

7 refugees also reflect on the quality of overall life in

8 Busovaca? What is your immediate, direct experience of

9 it?

10 A. Yes, of course it did. All those who arrived

11 had left their homes, and they all found themselves in

12 a very difficult situation.

13 Q. Did this large wave of refugees cause the

14 rise in incidents, excesses, and things like that?

15 A. Yes, that also was the case.

16 Q. But let us try to now wrap up everything

17 we've said so far about the refugees. Can you tell us,

18 on the basis of the information that reached you, how

19 many people from Zenica had left Zenica in that period,

20 and how many people from Travnik left the Travnik

21 region in June 1993?

22 A. According to what I learned, about 20.000

23 people from Travnik and 17.000 from Zenica. Of course,

24 not all of them actually stayed in Busovaca, as I

25 mentioned.

Page 19584

1 Q. But I'm just asking you about the number of

2 people who were displaced within Central Bosnia. Is

3 that the number?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Now, let us turn to your work, to the job

6 that you did in the Red Cross in Busovaca. When did

7 you join? When did you start working in the local Red

8 Cross in Busovaca?

9 A. Immediately after the attack on Busovaca in

10 February 1993.

11 Q. You said "the attack on Busovaca." Could you

12 tell the Trial Chamber who attacked Busovaca in late

13 June 1993?

14 A. The Muslims.

15 Q. The president of the Red Cross at that time

16 was Mr. Stipo Santic. So he gave you a job as an

17 economist so that -- to assist these displaced people

18 with accommodation and distribution of aid.

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 A. (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 19585

1 (redacted).

2 Q. (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 A. (redacted)

6 (redacted).

7 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

8 we can move to paragraph 11, which is humanitarian aid

9 distributed in the territory of Busovaca.

10 Q. Perhaps a couple of technical points. In

11 addition to the local Red Cross presence, there were

12 several other people working there, people who worked

13 in a warehouse and so on.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Your job was such, in fact -- were you able

16 to ever stop working due to shelling and other

17 disruptions?

18 A. No. I worked throughout the war and I

19 never -- I was never absent, not a single day. There

20 was one day there was heavy shelling and I was late to

21 work. I arrived only at 12.00 noon because I knew I

22 had to be there.

23 Q. You knew that you had to come -- to go there

24 because people were waiting for you, right?

25 A. Yes. The humanitarian aid needed to be

Page 19586

1 distributed to people.

2 Q. So not only did you go to work despite of the

3 shelling, but also the displaced persons had to go and

4 collect their food?

5 A. Yes, there were moments when the shelling --

6 that there was shelling and there were huge lines in

7 front of the Red Cross offices.

8 The police wanted to chase us away and wanted

9 us to close the office down so that people would not be

10 killed by shells. However, nobody wanted me to stop

11 working, but instead they said, "You just hand it out

12 to us. We don't care whether we're killed by a shell

13 or from hunger."

14 Then I begged them to move across the street

15 into the entry way so that I would -- and that I would

16 do what I needed to do, and then when I would be done I

17 would wave them over, and one of them would come over

18 and take these humanitarian aid and hand it to others

19 as well.

20 Q. And this preparation of work consisted of

21 what? For each family, you had a separate index card

22 where you entered the data. We will show an example

23 later but this is, in principle, what you did?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. At the beginning, who was the only

Page 19587

1 organisation who delivered humanitarian aid to you?

2 A. At first, we received food from the

3 International Red Cross.

4 Q. And did other humanitarian organisations also

5 contribute?

6 A. Yes, it was the -- later UNHCR and other

7 organisations also contributed.

8 Q. You said that this humanitarian aid came from

9 different sources. Was it distributed directly to the

10 people who were in need or not?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Who took over -- who was taking over the food

13 from the entire region regardless of the source?

14 A. The total humanitarian aid from all

15 humanitarian organisations would be delivered to our

16 central warehouse where we would register it. And then

17 we would distribute this humanitarian aid to some basic

18 point; Merhamet, Dobrotvor, Caritas, so that we would

19 have as few problems as possible.

20 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

21 we've prepared on the basis of the registers that

22 Witness DF has referred, several bundles of evidence

23 but they all boil down to the same.

24 This is a series of certificates, I don't

25 know what name to give them, about the quantities of

Page 19588

1 food delivered to particular areas. The witness just

2 said that at first they distributed the aid through the

3 humanitarian organisations. One was Dobrotvor.

4 Q. But Witness DF, Dobrotvor was whose

5 humanitarian organisation?

6 A. It was Serbian humanitarian organisation.

7 Q. And Merhamet?

8 A. Merhamet was a Muslim organisation


10 two exhibits refer to the distribution of humanitarian

11 aid from the municipal Red Cross office in Busovaca to

12 the humanitarian organisations of Dobrotvor, and the

13 Muslim humanitarian organisation Merhamet, and the data

14 are for 1992 and 1993.

15 I must say that we have a problem because

16 there is a host of purely technical data listed here,

17 and they were not translated. It was practically

18 impossible to do so.

19 So I would like to ask the witness to quickly

20 clarify what these documents mean, and if necessary, we

21 can then ask that the full text of it be translated

22 even though it is -- it would be a very a labourious

23 endeavour.

24 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Wait,

25 Mr. Naumovski. Let us try and clarify the situation.

Page 19589

1 Witness DF, if I understand well, you were

2 employed by the local Red Cross; is that so?

3 A. Yes.

4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] And there

5 were two types of distribution. There was direct

6 distribution to individuals who, as you told us, queued

7 in front of your office, and there was indirect

8 distribution to local humanitarian organisations, as

9 Mr. Naumovski said, Dobrotvor and Merhamet; is that

10 correct?

11 A. At first, we distributed the food to the

12 humanitarian organisations, and later, when the Red

13 Cross took over the distribution and did it directly,

14 both for the local residents of Busovaca and for the

15 displaced persons.

16 At first, we didn't even know how to organise

17 ourselves so at first we just were turning over the aid

18 to the Dobrotvor, Merhamet and Caritas organisations.

19 But later on, when it became dangerous and we had no

20 ability to -- for wide-scale distribution, we had

21 distribution points in villages and elsewhere.

22 But after that, we started delivering the aid

23 directly to both the displaced persons and to the local

24 residents of Busovaca. We registered all that on

25 separate index cards which contained a name of the

Page 19590

1 family and --

2 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

3 Witness DF. You have answered my question.

4 So in the beginning, you distributed it

5 through humanitarian organisations, Dobrotvor, Merhamet

6 and Caritas, and these societies, the distribution

7 through these humanitarian organisations, how long did

8 that last?

9 A. Until the end of the war. Even in 1975

10 [sic], some people received aid from the world food

11 programme. These were elderly people, people who lived

12 alone, it was a particular category of people.

13 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Witness DF,

14 you told us that the distribution could not be done

15 through humanitarian organisations, you mentioned,

16 because it had become too difficult and you then began

17 to distribute relief directly to the population; is

18 that so?

19 When is it that you began to do it directly

20 to the population? As of what date did you begin to

21 distribute aid directly to the population?

22 A. We started as early as March, 1993, and when

23 we were -- this is when we were able to deliver the

24 food -- the aid to the humanitarian -- local

25 humanitarian organisation. But as of June, we did it

Page 19591

1 ourselves.

2 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 Yes, Mr. Naumovski. I do not know if the

4 witness mentioned 1975. I don't know if this was a

5 slip of the tongue or a misprint or what. Could you

6 please clarify this, but the transcript says 1975.

7 A. A mistake. 1997.

8 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] So the

9 transcript needs to be corrected. Thank you.

10 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] With your

11 permission, I would just like to quickly show the

12 witness all of these bundles and ask her to give a very

13 brief comment on each one of those. Thank you.

14 Q. Witness, this first bundle refers to the

15 humanitarian aid delivered to the Muslim population who

16 lived in Busovaca through 1993. I do not want to take

17 you through all of this, but I put a yellow sticky

18 which I want -- it's on page 7, not counting the cover

19 page.

20 I think we can even mention -- no. Actually,

21 do not say the name of the person. Just tell us what

22 ethnic group the family was, how many members there

23 were, and what is entered here.

24 A. This is a Muslim family which arrived in

25 Busovaca from the area of Jajce, had seven family

Page 19592

1 members, received humanitarian aid from the

2 3rd November, 1992 to 28th August, 1993. The

3 humanitarian aid which they received has been

4 registered by date and also specified what it was;

5 flour, sugar, cooking oil; and the amount received; and

6 also the signature of the person who received it. That

7 is basically it.

8 Q. We just took a random example. If we took

9 any other page, it would be similar information, who

10 the family was, the number of members of the family,

11 the type of aid received?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can we have the number for this exhibit?

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Naumovski, in relation

15 to this particular page, I take it in number 10, in the

16 first column, means that there are 10 distributions in

17 the period from November 1992 till July 1993.

18 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Did you understand this? If you look at the

20 entries 1 through 10.

21 A. Yes, I understood that.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Could you give us an idea of

23 what was distributed, let us say in the third -- what

24 falls under number 3 on the 7th of December. What was

25 distributed on that day?

Page 19593

1 A. Flour.

2 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]

3 Q. How many kilogrammes, please?

4 A. Seventy kilogrammes.

5 Q. And later on, what follows?

6 A. One family packet. How shall I explain

7 that? These were larger-sized packets. We called them

8 family packets, which included oil, cooking oil; beans;

9 sugar; and some canned food; then soy; detergent.

10 Q. This is what the family received on that

11 particular day?

12 A. Yes.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you very much.

14 THE REGISTRAR: The document will be marked

15 D235/1.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to the counsel,

17 please.

18 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Sorry I did not turn on the microphone. Can

20 you take the thinner bundle of documents. This is a

21 register of the supplies that left the main warehouse

22 of the Red Cross and were delivered to the village of

23 Jelinak in February and March. Could you tell us which

24 ethnic group lived in Jelinak?

25 A. This is humanitarian aid which we sent on

Page 19594

1 14th and 15th of March to the village of Jelinak, and

2 this village was populated by both Muslims and Croats.

3 Q. You said 14th -- 14th of March and 15th of

4 March, but there is also an entry for February. Could

5 you just say who signed this receipt?

6 A. Zijad Osmancevic.

7 Q. So Zijad Osmancevic, on 15th March, signed

8 that he received such quantities of humanitarian aid

9 from the organisation.

10 Now, let's try to clarify what Judge Robinson

11 asked you previously. What was delivered on that day?

12 A. On the 15th of March, 450 kilogrammes of

13 flour, 30 litres of cooking oil, 2 1/2 kilogrammes of

14 yeast, 30 kilogrammes of sugar, 50 kilogrammes of

15 beans, and 10 kilogrammes of noodles, and so on.

16 Q. And so on and so forth. You don't have to

17 read all of it.

18 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]

19 Mr. Naumovski, perhaps -- there is no need to go into

20 all the details. I believe we can move on really now

21 we do have a picture.

22 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,

23 Your Honours.

24 Q. I just wanted to say that the second page, at

25 the bottom, bears the date of 16 February 1993?

Page 19595

1 A. Yes, that is correct.

2 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Can we have a

3 number for this exhibit and then we can move on.


5 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Can the usher

6 please help us with the other three bundles, and we'll

7 go through them very quickly. It maybe better if each

8 one was numbered separately like we did the first two,

9 so it would be easier to handle all of them.

10 I apologise to the Trial Chamber. We do have

11 a large number of documents all at once, and my

12 apologies to the registrar too.

13 Q. Witness DF, could you please take the

14 document which has "Skradno" and "Loncari" on the cover

15 page. It's -- "Skradno" and "Loncari" should be on the

16 cover page. Can you find that, please?

17 Can you tell the Trial Chamber, what does

18 this bundle refer to? Who lived there and what was

19 distributed there?

20 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Excuse me,

21 Witness DF.

22 Could the registrar tell me which is the

23 number given to this document? Is it the document

24 which begins with --

25 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] On the cover

Page 19596

1 page, you will see the names of villages Skradno and

2 Loncari. Do we all have the same document?

3 Q. What year does this refer to and who lived in

4 those villages at that time?

5 A. In the villages -- in this period, end of

6 1992 and almost all of 1993, that is, March 1993, May

7 1993, Skradno and Loncari was populated by Muslims.

8 Excuse me, there were also displaced Muslim people

9 there.

10 Q. So not only the local residents who were

11 Muslim ethnic background, but also the displaced people

12 who were of Muslim ethnic background.

13 Could you turn to the document where you see

14 registration number 195/93, it is dated 2 May, 1993.

15 And it says that the humanitarian aid was delivered for

16 103 members. Does that mean that 103 members lived

17 there. And there was a name here, is that Atif

18 Barucija if I can make it out?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Was he a Muslim? Was he the head of the

21 village?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Now just very quickly, how much food was

24 delivered on this second of August, 1993?

25 A. 500 kilograms of flour, 55 kilograms of --

Page 19597

1 litres of oil, 100 kilograms of lentils, 10 kilograms

2 of yeast and also 50 litres detergent.

3 Q. Very well, we will not -- this will end this

4 bundle. We'll have no more questions on it.

5 THE REGISTRAR: This document will be marked

6 D237/1.

7 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]

8 Q. The next document, this is, it says

9 Dobrotvor, this is for 1992 and 1993. If you can just

10 say, very briefly, what does this, what do these

11 documents reflect?

12 A. That we delivered humanitarian aid to the

13 Dobrotvor who then delivered food to the population,

14 that is, the refugees of Serbian ethnic background.

15 Q. Very well. Your Honours, I believe there's

16 no need to go any further in that.

17 A. Maybe just to clarify one thing so that there

18 is no confusion. Each document has a separate -- a

19 different title or heading. We did not have the proper

20 forms and so we used the forms which we had so you can

21 see that these have different headings.

22 One is a receipt, one is an invoice and --

23 but all this refers to the humanitarian aid which was

24 sent out from the central warehouse.

25 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 19598

1 THE REGISTRAR: That will be D238/1.

2 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]

3 Q. And the last one which refers to Merhamet.

4 This is, again, 1992, 1993. You already explained to

5 the Trial Chamber.

6 Again, this is documents covering all the

7 food, all the humanitarian aid which were delivered to

8 the Muslim humanitarian organisation, Merhamet, during

9 1992 and 1993 in Busovaca.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Some of these documents show that you

12 supplied -- in the Merhamet file, that there is also

13 the locality of Kacuni, isn't it, and this is the first

14 sheet?

15 A. Yes, the neighbourhood community of Kacuni

16 for Muslim families who lived in the area of Kacuni,

17 that is, to Merhamet. And we supplied Merhamet for

18 other people, for the town and adjacent villages.

19 Q. So the document on the first page shows that

20 for 481 family members in the neighbourhood community

21 of Kacuni on the 4th of January, 1993 were delivered.

22 It says, 4.3 tonnes of flour, isn't it?

23 A. Yes, 106 sacks.

24 Q. So it was the total amount was five and a

25 half tonnes of flour.

Page 19599

1 Your Honour, I have no more questions about

2 this matter then we can move on.

3 THE REGISTRAR: It will be number D239/1.

4 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Witness DF, we were talking about these

6 supplies distribution and so on and so forth, and you

7 have already given the Court a general picture.

8 Perhaps we should merely make it clear to the Court how

9 difficult was life in Busovaca.

10 As of March 1993 until spring of 1994, in the

11 territory of the Busovaca municipality, controlled by

12 the HVO, could one buy something in a shop? Did shops

13 have merchandise which they could sell or was it all

14 based on donations, on aid?

15 A. When the first attack on Busovaca happened,

16 all shops closed down and they did not open again, so

17 one could not buy any foodstuffs which means that the

18 whole population, both local and the refugees were

19 turning to the Red Cross for humanitarian relief

20 because even if somebody had money, there was simply

21 nowhere where he could use it to buy something.

22 Q. You are an inexhaustible source of the

23 statistical data, so will you please tell us this: In

24 the beginning, when there was a relatively sufficient

25 supply of food and not too many refugees, you would

Page 19600

1 issue a considerable amount of flour per person.

2 However, in 1993, that quantity had to be drastically

3 cut down.

4 A. Yes, the cards that we have attached for

5 humanitarian aid. So that in the beginning, we would

6 issue 10 to 12 kilograms of flour per person, per

7 month, and a litre of edible oil, per person, per

8 month.

9 But in those hard times, and in view of the

10 food shortages, it went down to five kilograms per

11 person and half a litre of edible oil per person, per

12 month, and it wasn't even issued regularly every

13 month. Sometimes some families' turn would come only

14 after a month and a half.

15 Q. When you say somebody's turn would come, does

16 that mean, do I understand you well that you went

17 through the lists as they were, was there any

18 discrimination in the food distribution?

19 A. No, there was no discrimination at all. We

20 simply went down the list. And if we did not have

21 enough relief for all those in need of it, then you can

22 see by the date, we would have it on record, that is,

23 we would distribute the humanitarian relief, as long as

24 we had any. And those who, after we had distributed

25 what we had, then the next group had to wait for the

Page 19601

1 next delivery of relief to us.

2 And then we looked at the dates and then

3 those who received it on the previous occasion were not

4 entitled to it the next occasion so that every month

5 and a half, or two months, everybody would receive his

6 share of the humanitarian aid.

7 Q. I understand. So you are telling us that

8 there were no privileged categories or discrimination,

9 that is your experience in the work of the Red Cross.

10 But will you tell the Court if, from the

11 municipal HVO from the municipal authorities, did you

12 ever get any instructions to the contrary? That is

13 that you would have to discriminate individual ethnic

14 groups or not?

15 A. No, we were never issued such instructions.

16 We worked independently. We reported to international

17 humanitarian organisations which brought the

18 humanitarian relief to us and there were never any

19 objections. That is, everybody received the same

20 quantity of the humanitarian relief, be it Croats,

21 Muslims or Serbs.

22 Q. You have already told the Court that there

23 was a food shortage, there was famine, to put it

24 simply. And you tried all sorts of things to avoid any

25 incidents, even by Croats sometimes when there would be

Page 19602

1 shelling and you would be attempting to give some

2 relief to Muslim refugees; is that correct?

3 A. Yes, it is correct. There were some moments

4 that were very hard indeed. It was very difficult to

5 work, and I do not really know where did I summon all

6 this energy from and how could I stand it.

7 There were people who threatened me with

8 rifles, but all is well that ends well. I was never

9 really afraid. And when, in that crowd, I would see a

10 Muslim family because, of course, I knew them all very

11 well by that time, both the locals and the refugees,

12 I'd first give a card to them so they could leave that

13 crowd as quickly as possible so as to avoid a possible

14 problem or --

15 Q. Right. Perhaps another question in this

16 regard. What road, from which direction did the

17 humanitarian relief arrive in Busovaca, regardless if

18 it was being sent by the UNHCR or somebody else?

19 A. The chief logistics for the area of Central

20 Bosnia was in Zenica.

21 Q. That is, where the UNHCR had its central

22 warehouse, didn't it? And the Red Cross, they kept

23 their warehouses there for the whole of Central Bosnia?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So the road from Zenica was used to deliver

Page 19603

1 it to you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. But tell us, please, awhile ago you said that

4 the Muslims had attacked Busovaca, that is, the army in

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina, in January. And what happened in

6 April? Who attacked then? Whom?

7 A. Muslims again, the army of BH.

8 Q. Tell us, please, do you remember, in April

9 1993, you made an offer to the villagers of the Muslim

10 village of Merdani, near Busovaca, about the delivery

11 of a considerable quantity of food and other relief?

12 A. Yes. Yes, I remember it. I remember we ran

13 into -- we -- there was a problem. They did not

14 receive this humanitarian relief. I don't know why; I

15 was not there. But I know there is a document to that

16 effect. Reportedly there were a number of problems,

17 and there was even gunfire, so that our men with the

18 truck came back to the warehouse.

19 Q. That is, they did not want to accept that

20 food?

21 A. Yes, they refused to accept that food.

22 Q. Tell us, did you have any instructions from

23 military structures or anybody else not to distribute

24 that food? Was there mentioned that there was a

25 preparation of an attack by the HVO or something?

Page 19604

1 A. No. We did not have anything.

2 Q. And you consider this evidence to the

3 opposite, if I understand you properly.

4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Please, no

5 comments, Mr. Naumovski. Without comments, and do not

6 lead the witness too much on this matter, please. I

7 believe that the witness has already answered.

8 Besides, she was not there and cannot tell us what

9 really happened.

10 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Yes. I

11 accept that, Your Honours. My mistake.

12 Q. I believe you have already told the Court, in

13 spite of all that shelling, and now we are talking

14 about this really ferocious part of the war as of April

15 1993 onward, at the time you were doing your job, and I

16 do not really think there is any need to repeat it once

17 again.

18 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] And this is

19 paragraph 17, Your Honours.

20 Q. Perhaps only to say -- to cover only a few

21 questions. Tell us, please, did you, Witness DF --

22 that is, you worked for the local Red Cross, so you had

23 first-hand information. Did Mr. Dario Kordic have any

24 say in the work of the local Red Cross in Busovaca?

25 A. No, never.

Page 19605

1 Q. Did you ever hear his views on the

2 distribution of humanitarian aid? Did you ever hear

3 him say some principles which should govern the

4 distribution of humanitarian aid?

5 A. As far as -- no, and through my boss,

6 Mr. Stipo Santic, Mr. Dario Kordic merely insisted that

7 everybody should receive the same quantities

8 of humanitarian aid regardless of their ethnicity, and

9 insisted on us getting sufficient, adequate quantities

10 of humanitarian aid from international organisations in

11 view of the number of refugees and the local population

12 in the municipality of Busovaca.

13 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Excuse me,

14 Mr. Naumovski. Witness DF says that Mr. Dario Kordic

15 was committing himself to seeing this distribution

16 equal, but did he have anything to do with the

17 organisation, with the Red Cross organisation?

18 A. Not directly.

19 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Then why do

20 you say that he was committed, that he undertook, that

21 he did what he could to have it distributed equitably?

22 A. Well, I heard him on those occasions when he

23 addressed the population at large.

24 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] So it is

25 just an impression that you gained through a speech of

Page 19606

1 his. You did not really have anything to do with

2 Mr. Dario Kordic in the work of your organisation.

3 A. Yes, that is correct.

4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Well, let me just ask you just one more

7 question about this. Did you ever, you personally or

8 your boss -- any reports on the food distribution to

9 Mr. Kordic or any information about your work?

10 A. No, we did not.

11 Q. Did you ever hear -- you told us now -- you

12 told us now about your conclusion about what Mr. Kordic

13 spoke about, the food distribution, when he addressed

14 the population of Busovaca and broader area, but have

15 you ever heard him uphold some other principles,

16 discrimination in the distribution, or anything like

17 that?

18 A. No, never.

19 Q. Perhaps my last question to the witness: In

20 this case, there's been mention about the convoy, a

21 relatively large convoy of humanitarian relief which

22 was allegedly on the -- in the territory of Busovaca on

23 the 28th of April, 1993. It was a large convoy of

24 about 40 lorries. Did you ever hear anything about

25 that convoy? Do you have any knowledge about that?

Page 19607

1 A. No. All I know is that all humanitarian

2 relief arrived in Zenica, and from Zenica, according to

3 the international organisation's criteria, it was

4 distributed among the municipalities.

5 Q. Thank you, Witness DF.

6 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

7 I have no more questions for this witness. Thank you.

8 MR. MIKULICIC: No questions, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice.

10 MR. NICE: Thank you.

11 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice:

12 Q. Dealing with that very last question before I

13 turn back to the beginning, if evidence has been given

14 by various members of the international community that

15 a convoy was detained on the 28th of April and then, in

16 due course, released, you're not suggesting that that

17 evidence is wrong, it's just that you weren't in the

18 position of the municipality to see it; correct?

19 A. I never even heard about that convoy or that

20 it was stopped ever, let alone been on that spot. I

21 was in the office all the time.

22 Q. But, madam, if things were happening

23 involving senior political or military personnel, are

24 you suggesting that in your position as a Red Cross

25 worker you'd get to know about all such matters?

Page 19608

1 A. No, not necessarily. And about that one, I

2 never even heard.

3 Q. Thank you. Let's go back to the beginning

4 and to Jajce. When did you yourself leave Jajce?

5 A. On the 30th of October at 5.00 in the

6 morning.

7 Q. We've heard a lot about Jajce and about the

8 fighting there. You've now returned to it, and I think

9 that there are memorials or there's a memorial in Jajce

10 to the number of people involved in the battles, but

11 help us. When people left Jajce in large numbers, it

12 wasn't a bloodbath, was it? There weren't a lot of

13 deaths happening.

14 A. As people left, it was very hard. Jajce was

15 being shelled. Jajce was shelled between Sunday to

16 Wednesday, day and night, round the clock.

17 I can tell you only this: that for at least

18 that, all sorts of bombs were thrown from aircraft on

19 at least six or eight occasions. So it was very bad.

20 At times they would stop shelling for an hour or two,

21 but right before we left Jajce, I'm telling you they

22 simply never stopped shelling Jajce. One simply could

23 not stand it any more. I spent four months in the

24 cellar with my children.

25 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can you say specifically

Page 19609

1 whether there were a lot of deaths? That was the

2 specific question asked of you.

3 A. Well, I wouldn't know. I know that in our

4 convoy, as we were leaving, a shell hit a truck. How

5 many died on that occasion, I don't know. But there

6 were dead, even as we were leaving.


8 Q. There were no concentration camps at Jajce,

9 were there?

10 A. No.

11 Q. And the picture we have, it's not necessarily

12 important for us, but we have a slight picture and we

13 want a slightly better one, the picture is of the

14 population, at the time that you left, fleeing Jajce en

15 masse and some of it going to, for example, Busovaca.

16 That's the correct picture, isn't it?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. In your position in Jajce, you could have no

19 knowledge of what, if any, decisions were being made by

20 the senior military men or by the senior political men

21 or women?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Therefore, you have no knowledge of whether

24 there was any arrangement between any of the parties

25 before everyone fled from Jajce?

Page 19610

1 A. I do not think there was any such thing.

2 Q. Now, you're a Serb. Why did you leave?

3 Could you not have stayed?

4 A. No, I could not, because my husband is a

5 Croat.

6 Q. And, therefore, you were, from an early

7 stage, and quite understandably, committed, to an

8 extent, to the Croat cause?

9 A. I wouldn't really put it that way. I was a

10 human being and a just one.

11 Q. Your husband, what did he do when you got to

12 Busovaca?

13 A. He joined the Croatian army and, needless to

14 say, defended us from the attacks.

15 Q. Which brigade was he a member of?

16 A. Nikola Subic-Zrinjski.

17 Q. You gave us some figures, a lot of figures,

18 and I only want to ask you about two of them. You

19 spoke of some 15.000 people, and then you spoke of some

20 10.000 people in Busovaca. Can you just tell me what

21 was the 15.000 a figure for?

22 A. 15.000 was in my estimate the total number of

23 people who left Jajce. And some 10.000 of them stayed

24 in the territory of Busovaca, and 5.000 went on. They

25 simply did not stop. They went to Livno and other

Page 19611

1 places.

2 Q. I only ask you that, madam, because in your

3 summary I understand you to have prepared and signed,

4 you initially said in paragraph seven that there were

5 10.000 refugees who fled from Jajce and who arrived in

6 Busovaca.

7 Are you now saying there were 15.000 or is

8 15.000 a different figure?

9 A. No, not a different figure. But by those

10 10.000, I meant those people who stayed in Busovaca.

11 Q. That's the problem because your next sentence

12 in the same paragraph, you said, "Out of 10.000 Jajce

13 refugees, about 5.000 stayed in the part of Busovaca,

14 predominantly populated by Croats."

15 It really doesn't matter very much, but if

16 you'd like to tell us which one of those figures is the

17 one you prefer, and then we'll move on.

18 A. Yes, about 5.000 stayed in Busovaca.

19 Q. And what's clear from the answers you've

20 given is that, of course, these are very much

21 estimates, aren't they? They're not backed by

22 documentation.

23 A. There is documentation. There is documents

24 for those who stayed in Busovaca. The rest, yes, are

25 merely estimates.

Page 19612

1 Q. Now, this morning you had a lot of documents,

2 and I can't pretend to understand them and I hope to

3 deal with them very briefly.

4 You just tell me or rather tell the Judges

5 and I'll hear, what do you say those documents show

6 that's significant? Because if I accept that, then I

7 won't have to look at them again.

8 What do these documents show? They show that

9 you were distributing aid, don't they?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And they show to some extent how you

12 distributed it?

13 A. Correct.

14 Q. And probably if we looked at them in detail,

15 and took some examples, they might show that there was

16 less food available as time passed than there was at

17 the beginning. That would be right, wouldn't it?

18 A. Yes, it would.

19 Q. Do these documents show anything else? Do

20 they show anything about distribution to Muslims or

21 distribution to Serbs or anything like that or do they

22 just simply show, yes, that the Red Cross distributed

23 aid?

24 A. They show that the Red Cross distributed aid

25 to everybody on an equal basis.

Page 19613

1 MR. NICE: Perhaps I'll come to that, if it's

2 convenient, after the break.

3 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Very well.

4 We shall now make a break until 11.30.

5 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

6 --- On resuming at 11.33 a.m.


8 Q. Aid came to your local Red Cross office via

9 the International Committee of the Red Cross, correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. It was distributed either by different

12 organisations, the Croat, the Serb and the Muslim

13 organisations that you had said or it was distributed

14 direct from the premises by you; is that correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You did not go on trucks or lorries or

17 whatever distributing the aid yourself?

18 A. No.

19 Q. So you can't speak of how the aid was

20 actually delivered except when it went out of the shop

21 or the building where you were working.

22 A. We received feedback, information from people

23 who had delivered it to those people who were in need

24 of it.

25 Q. Very well. But in any event, as paragraph 18

Page 19614

1 of your summary reveals, you were only distributing aid

2 in the territory of Busovaca that was controlled by the

3 HVO. That's correct, isn't it?

4 A. Later on, yes.

5 Q. Because the Mahalla area, whatever else it

6 might have been called, was controlled by the ABiH and

7 you didn't have access to it?

8 A. You mean the Mahalla in Vitez.

9 Q. Well, what's the proper name for the Muslim

10 area of Busovaca? I picked it up as being called

11 Mahalla, but can you help me with what the Muslim part

12 of Busovaca is?

13 A. Merhamet was the Muslim charity organisation.

14 Q. But the area of Busovaca in which the Muslims

15 were living, such as there were, what was that called?

16 A. Muslims lived both in the town and in the

17 surrounding villages.

18 Q. Well, it's your statement, you see. It is

19 your statement, isn't it? When did you prepare this

20 summary that we've been supplied with?

21 A. When I arrived here around the 20th or 25th.

22 Q. Because it's your statement and you've signed

23 it, you said, you've spoken of the bit of territory

24 that was controlled by the HVO in Busovaca and then you

25 said, "The ABiH controlled the other half, and we had

Page 19615

1 no access to it." Is that what -- is that the truth?

2 Is that what the position was?

3 A. Yes. Later on when it was divided, we had no

4 access to it.

5 Q. Now, just coming back to these documents for

6 a minute, just before I get to that, how many people

7 were working at the local Red Cross? (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 A. (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 Q. And you first started working there what

14 month?

15 A. In early February, 1993.

16 Q. Were you aware that in 1992, the local

17 president of the Red Cross had been a man called -- I'm

18 so sorry. I'll withdraw that.

19 I come back then to the documents. Working

20 for the Red Cross for some time, you must be aware of

21 the -- or be aware to some extent of the various

22 privileges that the Red Cross enjoys as a result of the

23 Geneva Conventions. Are you aware of those

24 privileges?

25 A. Yes.

Page 19616

1 Q. And do you know why the Red Cross has

2 privileges or why it maintains its privileges? What's

3 the reason for that?

4 A. In order to help all those who are at risk.

5 Q. Are you not aware at all of the fact that the

6 Red Cross claims a special position, and because of its

7 neutrality it's always neutral in relation to what's

8 going on. Are you aware of that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Which is why documents of the International

11 Committee of the Red Cross aren't produced in court,

12 you see.

13 Now, I just wonder, when these documents were

14 produced, which I still haven't looked at, did you seek

15 anyone's permission before you had them produced to

16 this court?

17 A. The documents enclosed here are not those of

18 the International Red Cross but, rather, of the

19 Busovaca Red Cross.

20 Q. Of course, but the topics that you're dealing

21 with in those documents are the provision of aid which,

22 as you told me a little earlier, was effectively

23 provided via the International Committee, and,

24 therefore, to that extent it is the work of the

25 International Committee. It didn't occur to you to

Page 19617

1 seek anyone's permission before revealing those

2 documents?

3 A. These documents are in the Busovaca Red Cross

4 offices.

5 Q. I'll move on to something else. There was a

6 village called Katici, wasn't there?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And of course, you would know that that was

9 the collection point for Serbs in the Busovaca area?

10 A. Katici, I'm not so sure.

11 Q. Well, there would have been and there no

12 doubt was a place where Serbs collected, particularly

13 when they wanted to leave Busovaca, and you, as a Serb,

14 must be able to help us all. I hope you will be able

15 to help us with where it was and what happened.

16 Can you remember what happened to Serbs who

17 wanted to leave the Busovaca area?

18 A. Those who wanted to, could leave.

19 Q. But do you remember that money was required

20 for their safe passage? Alternatively, they had to

21 sign over their goods as the price of getting permits

22 to leave Busovaca. Do you remember that? Your fellow

23 Serbs.

24 A. I don't know that.

25 Q. I'll move on to another topic and cover the

Page 19618

1 few remaining topics quickly.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.


4 Q. I want to move on to another topic, madam,

5 and cover the remaining topics quickly.

6 You knew about Kaonik, the prison camp?

7 A. Of course I heard.

8 Q. What Red Cross supplies were sent to Kaonik,

9 if any?

10 A. They were very small, negligible amounts. At

11 the request of the Kaonik warden, we gave certain

12 amounts of aid. Usually it was cooking oil and beans.

13 Q. But it was what, starvation rations? Would

14 that be about right?

15 A. I don't know about that. I just know that

16 part of that humanitarian aid -- when we received a

17 request from the administration after they ran out of

18 their own supplies of food, we then stepped in to

19 help.

20 Q. That isn't covered in any of these documents

21 that you've provided us today, is it?

22 A. If we were to have brought everything, it

23 would have been a lot of documents. There are a lot of

24 them.

25 Q. The village of Merdani, which you told the

Page 19619

1 Judges declined aid for a time in 1993, is a Muslim

2 village; correct?

3 A. They only declined it once.

4 Q. Yes, but they declined it. It's a Muslim

5 village, and the reason they declined it was because

6 they weren't prepared to accept aid from the HVO.

7 That's correct, isn't it?

8 A. I don't know what their reasons were, but

9 they just did not receive it.

10 Q. Was it the HVO that was physically in charge

11 of distributing aid to Merdani?

12 A. No.

13 Q. In April 1993, the neighbouring municipality

14 of Kiseljak, still within the same Central Bosnia area,

15 imposed a rule, didn't it, that all distribution of aid

16 should be by the local Red Cross and only by the local

17 Red Cross? Now, you must have heard about that.

18 A. No.

19 Q. Well, in your area, all distribution was by

20 the local Red Cross, wasn't it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And in April of 1993 -- just think back

23 please and help us if you will -- you were subject to

24 pressure, the local Red Cross, from the International

25 Committee of the Red Cross to distribute aid to the

Page 19620

1 Muslims, and it was made clear to you that aid would be

2 suspended if you didn't do so. Now, do you remember

3 that?

4 A. No, I know that we gave aid to the Muslims

5 just as we did to the others.

6 Q. Well, let's break my question into two

7 parts. You were there, and you've had access to the

8 records. You recall an occasion when there was the

9 threat of a suspension of aid, and I'm going to suggest

10 to you that that was in April of 1993. Do you remember

11 that?

12 A. I don't remember.

13 Q. May it be because it would only be people

14 further up the management chain who would know these

15 things?

16 A. I don't know.

17 Q. We turn to Skradno, that was an

18 HVO-controlled village and by May, would you accept

19 this, there were only some 22 detained persons

20 remaining there?

21 A. I don't remember exactly.

22 Q. Well, help me with this, this would be from

23 what you heard, the correct picture. When refugees

24 arrived in Busovaca, they were regularly enough

25 accommodated in the houses of people who had already

Page 19621

1 left, correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. With or without the consent of the person

4 whose house it actually was, correct?

5 A. In Busovaca, a lot of these owners were not

6 present. There were a lot of vacation homes and their

7 owners were in Zenica.

8 Q. It may be, but I move on. By May of 1993,

9 particularly, for example, in Skradno, the empty homes

10 that could have been available to displaced Muslim

11 persons were being guarded by the HVO, weren't they?

12 A. I don't know.

13 Q. Maybe the same was happening elsewhere, and

14 I'm going to suggest to you, as somebody who was

15 present locally, that the affect of this, depriving

16 refugees of empty homes was to force them, for example,

17 to go to Zenica. It was part of ethnic cleansing. Do

18 you remember that happening?

19 A. I don't remember such things happening.

20 Q. Stipo Santic, your boss, you saw a lot of

21 him?

22 A. Yes, we worked together every day.

23 Q. Fair enough. He, of course, was on the joint

24 Busovaca commission, wasn't he? You will remember

25 that.

Page 19622

1 A. What kind of commission are you referring

2 to?

3 Q. It's the local commission for Busovaca, and I

4 can show you a document if you want to see it but I'll

5 just read you out the members. It was Mr. Santic,

6 Mr. Maric, the mayor, Mr. Morsink, one of the monitors,

7 I think somebody called Beatrice from ICRC, and the

8 other members include Florijan Glavocevic and Zoran

9 Mravak. Do you remember his being a member of this

10 commission along with Dario Kordic?

11 A. No, I never did see that.

12 Q. Did you see if your boss had much to do,

13 Stipo Santic, with Mr. Kordic?

14 A. I'm not sure, but I believe he did not.

15 Q. May we just have a look at one new exhibit,

16 1197.2. Because you, as a long-term worker of the Red

17 Cross, would presumably discuss with people in your

18 office what was going on in the area generally; would

19 that be right?

20 A. Not very much. I worked very hard, and I did

21 not have time to chat a lot. I worked from morning

22 until the night.

23 Q. Well, madam, I'm afraid we don't have a

24 version of this in your language. What we we'll do is

25 we'll put it on the ELMO, and I'll read a passage. It

Page 19623

1 says, "A Report of the International Monitors to the

2 8th of September 1993." And if we look at the third

3 sheet, we can see what appears to be the opinions or

4 the knowledge of the president of the local Red Cross

5 which is why I want your help, please.

6 Third sheet begins with Stipo Santic. You

7 see the local monitors, having spoken to your boss, and

8 I'll read it out slowly, say this, "Stipo Santic,

9 president of the Croat Red Cross (in Busovaca)

10 recognised, for example, that ethnic cleansing has been

11 taking place between Zenica and Busovaca in the past

12 ten days. But he claimed that this cleansing was

13 inevitable, and would continue. Busovaca HVO police

14 officials confirmed this and suggested even that the

15 exchanges should be coordinated at a higher level, and

16 made official, for example, by the international

17 community.

18 BiH officials still strongly condemn

19 officially such a policy, but the pressure of the

20 displaced persons before winter and the death of

21 the--" and the following sentence may not make much

22 sense to you madam as it doesn't necessarily make sense

23 to me, " -- and the death of the ethnic cleansing

24 reversal principle in Geneva, as some financial

25 interests sometimes, makes them slowly have a more

Page 19624

1 pragmatic view on this."

2 So forget that sentence. And then they make

3 this observation to the international observers or

4 monitors, they say, "The HVO Busovaca policy is the

5 official position put forward by Mr. Anto Valenta,

6 vice-president of HVO Herceg-Bosna, who has accompanied

7 Mr. Boban in the last negotiations in Geneva.

8 Mr. Valenta has written a book on this two years ago

9 and, located in Travnik, now in Vitez where he is the

10 most powerful man with Mr. Kordic, he has taken all

11 possible occasions to put his ideas in practice."

12 Now, two points, one related quite

13 specifically to what you were doing. Was what your

14 boss said there about ethnic cleansing discussed in

15 your office?

16 A. No, and I did not perceive it that way

17 either.

18 Q. Well, now, you, as the person dealing with

19 the actual distribution of the aid or one of the people

20 will have been able to detect --

21 A. I would say I was one of those people.

22 Q. Yes, of course. But you will have been able

23 to detect changes in the proportion of goods going to

24 Muslims or going to Croats. And throughout 1993, would

25 this be right, the amount of aid going to Muslims

Page 19625

1 declined dramatically because the number of Muslims

2 left in Busovaca, itself, declined dramatically. That

3 would be correct, wouldn't it?

4 A. No. Ones were leaving others were coming so

5 it's very difficult to --

6 Q. By 1994, there were just a couple of handfuls

7 of Muslims left in Busovaca, weren't there?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And the rest had been driven out, hadn't

10 they?

11 A. I don't know that they were driven out, and I

12 don't know in what ways they were leaving.

13 Q. Did you see --

14 A. There was a war. There was a war, and it was

15 hard. Also, the Croats who had left their own homes

16 were also angry. All kinds of things were going on.

17 Q. You revealed the truth to us, madam, when you

18 told us that if you saw a Muslim in a queue, you

19 processed him quickly. And the reason you processed

20 him quickly, because if you didn't do that, he would

21 suffer at the hands of the Croats, wouldn't he?

22 A. I don't know if they would suffer, but the

23 situation was very difficult, and I wished to prevent

24 potential conflicts. There was a war, and the Muslims

25 were receiving the same amount of food as Croats. Of

Page 19626

1 course there was anger between or among people.

2 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm not going to deal

3 with --

4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Excuse me,

5 Mr. Nice.

6 MR. NICE: Sorry.

7 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] I wish to

8 ask the following of this witness: Based on what you

9 told us, madam, that is that Muslims were worried when

10 they would come to your office, they were afraid of

11 possibly hostile reactions from the Croats, well, were

12 the Muslims not talked out of trying to come in to your

13 office?

14 A. No. It was just very difficult.

15 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Did you have

16 statistics based on ethnic groups to say exactly what

17 was the amount of distributed aid?

18 A. Yes. We kept records on the numbers, the

19 total numbers of both the local population and the

20 refugees.

21 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] But you

22 don't remember them? Do you have them in mind?

23 A. I don't have them.

24 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 MR. NICE:

Page 19627

1 Q. Just connected to that, of course, of the

2 Muslims coming to the area -- the figures are only

3 estimates -- a large number were just passing through

4 and then they moved on, didn't they?

5 A. Well, a large number of them stayed until

6 June, some even until August 1993.

7 Q. Then they moved on because they were no

8 longer wanted. Would that be correct?

9 A. Well, I wouldn't know if they were not

10 wanted. Perhaps they were afraid. Perhaps they felt

11 unsafe. I mean, once they've left their home -- once

12 people leave their homes, I don't think they really

13 care about where they will stop.

14 Q. And of course, you must have seen in the town

15 people being arrested and taken off to Kaonik and

16 things like that. Didn't you see that happen from time

17 to time?

18 A. I never saw anything like that. I would come

19 to work, to the office in the morning, and after that I

20 never went out. The only route -- the only times I

21 went out were to go to the warehouse and back.

22 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm not going to ask

23 this witness about what she says about the January

24 attack or the April attack. Our position is entirely

25 contrary to her evidence, but I don't think it's

Page 19628

1 necessary for me to explore all matters with her. I'll

2 just ask her one question about the April attack.

3 Q. What do you say then, madam, please, in

4 relation to the April attacks, happened at Ahmici?

5 What were you told about that?

6 A. I don't know a thing. I heard that there had

7 been an attack, but I do not know any details.

8 Q. Not very far away, Ahmici, is it? How many

9 kilometres?

10 A. I can't tell you exactly. About ten

11 kilometres. I don't know.

12 MR. NICE: Thank you.

13 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,

14 Your Honours. Very briefly.

15 Re-examined by Mr. Naumovski:

16 Q. Witness DF, a couple of matters were raised

17 here and I should like to go through them quickly.

18 Towards the end, His Honour Judge Bennouna asked you

19 when Muslims would come to see you, that is Muslim

20 refugees to get food, that perhaps some incident might

21 take place between the Croats waiting for the food

22 relief and the Muslims waiting in the same queues.

23 Will you tell us, who shelled Busovaca at the

24 time when you were giving out the food?

25 A. The BH army.

Page 19629

1 Q. So couldn't that be a reason for some kind of

2 intolerance, if I understood you properly, between the

3 Croats waiting for their food and the Muslims waiting

4 for the food?

5 A. Correct.

6 Q. Thank you. Document Z1109.2 [sic] was now

7 introduced, and I'll just ask you a question about

8 this. Do you know anything or do you have any

9 knowledge that about that time, September 1993, that

10 is, August 1993, that that was a time of private

11 exchanges, as some people called it, that there were

12 some private exchanges between Busovaca Muslims and

13 Zenica Croats?

14 A. Perhaps that was so, but I don't know much

15 about that.

16 Q. You don't know if anybody had -- if there

17 were any charges of that kind, who did that, or

18 something?

19 A. No.

20 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

21 I will not ask any other questions about that. I will

22 ask about the second page of this document 1197.2.

23 Paragraph 3, it says: "Soft Ethnic

24 Cleansing." That is the title of the paragraph, and it

25 is attributed to criminal organisations. I'm drawing

Page 19630

1 your attention to it because the witness surely does

2 not know about that.

3 Q. And I have a few short questions to ask you.

4 Your boss, the president of the local Red

5 Cross, did he ever mention any contacts that he perhaps

6 had with Mr. Kordic?

7 A. No.

8 Q. My second question: The village of Skradno,

9 I didn't remember the number of persons mentioned by

10 the Prosecutor when he spoke about that village.

11 Twenty-two or something like that. However, this

12 document D237/1, which you explained to us today, on

13 the first page there is a receipt and it says:

14 "Skradno for 103 members, the 2nd of August, 1993."

15 Could that be the approximate number of the

16 population?

17 A. Well, it must have been, yes.

18 Q. Thank you. There was also a question about

19 Kiseljak, but the Court already knows, and I suppose

20 you also know. Did you have any communication with

21 Kiseljak after the January conflict of 1993?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Thank you. A question about Kaonik. Did the

24 local Red Cross regularly provide Kaonik with food or

25 was it done only as an exception, at the request of the

Page 19631

1 prison administration?

2 A. Only when so requested by the prison

3 administration.

4 Q. Thank you. You were also asked about the

5 departure or transit of a large number of Serbs from

6 Zenica through Busovaca to territories controlled by

7 the army of Bosnian Serbs. When you arrived in

8 Busovaca towards the end of October 1992, did you

9 already see any of such residents or had it happened

10 before you arrived in the territory?

11 A. I did not see it until I began to work, and I

12 didn't really move around very much before I started to

13 work, and I did not see them.

14 Q. Very well. We shall have the opportunity to

15 ask that -- to ask other witnesses about that.

16 The Prosecutor also suggested it was only the

17 International Red Cross which supplied the

18 international relief, but that is not true according to

19 you. Who provided you with food and other relief?

20 A. After the International Red Cross, it was the


22 Q. Were there also some donations by Caritas or

23 perhaps some private charity or other ways?

24 A. Yes, there were also -- there was also

25 Caritas and other organisations, yes.

Page 19632

1 Q. So a very broad circle of charity

2 organisations and institutions which were helping.

3 A. Yes, there must have been five or six of them

4 who provided food regularly.

5 Q. You told the Court that you were not

6 personally involved in distributing food, on the ground

7 I mean. But there was a document here which said that

8 in early January 1993, a certain quantity of food was

9 sent to the neighbourhood community of Kacuni, and the

10 person who distributed that food on the spot, did he or

11 she have to document it to show who got how much?

12 A. Well, whenever it was possible to do so, yes,

13 a report was submitted to the local Red Cross.

14 Q. No, I meant you. Did they have to justify it

15 before you. You, for instance, did some food, go to

16 Kacuni. Did a document had to be submitted to you to

17 show that the food had been distributed to whom, so on

18 and so forth?

19 A. Yes, as a rule, but it wasn't always done.

20 Q. Yes, but you had to -- that is for your

21 records, you had to have these so-called input and

22 output and it had to tally so you had to insist on that

23 kind of documentation, didn't you, on certificates or

24 receipts or something?

25 A. Yes. I would say that we have sent something

Page 19633

1 to somebody, it meant to us that it had reached the

2 intended beneficiary.

3 Q. Very well. And now I am going back to the

4 question you were asked at the beginning of the

5 cross-examination. I didn't ask you anything about

6 that because I didn't see any need for that. And it

7 has to do with Jajce, but you were asked about this by

8 the Prosecution, then I should also like to ask you two

9 or three questions about it.

10 Tell me, please, while you were in Jajce, was

11 your -- did your husband go defend against the army of

12 Bosnian Serbs together with the rest of Croats and

13 Muslims?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. In this case, it is alleged that an agreement

16 had -- that an understanding had been reached between

17 the HVO and the army of Bosnian Serbs to surrender

18 Jajce.

19 Your husband was on the front line so you

20 must have heard, you must have received information

21 from your husband. Why did you retreat from Jajce, was

22 it a military defeat or was it surrender?

23 A. From what I know, I think it was a military

24 defeat because my husband, as I said, left the front on

25 the 30th of October at 5.00 in the morning.

Page 19634

1 Q. And this will be my last question: Have you

2 ever heard this story, was there any suspicion about

3 the fate of Jajce, about the surrender of Jajce with

4 thousands of your countrymen or rather citizens of

5 Jajce were in touch with them? Have you ever heard

6 that?

7 A. No.

8 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I have no

9 further questions on redirect, Your Honours. Thank

10 you, Witness DF.

11 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Witness DF,

12 you have just completed your testimony. We thank you

13 for coming to testify at the Tribunal. You are now

14 free to go.

15 [The witness withdrew]

16 MR. NICE: Can I raise just a couple of

17 matters before Mr. Sayers, it seems, calls the next

18 witness?

19 The first relates to the last witness and her

20 records. I was concerned, of course, not to try and

21 keep out of evidence evidence that the Defence wanted

22 to call on the basis of somebody else's interest, so I

23 didn't object to the evidence. And indeed it's only

24 during the break that I've been able to make further

25 inquiries based on what the witness has told us.

Page 19635

1 And I've been able to speak to counsel who

2 appeared for the International Committee of Red Cross

3 in its action against the Tribunal in relation to the

4 relation to the Bosanski Samac case.

5 It seems possible, to put it no higher than

6 there, that because the work of the witness, in part or

7 whole, on her evidence, in whole, but in mind, in part

8 or whole, would be within the mandate of the

9 International Committee. And indeed because local

10 offices are referred to specifically in their -- I

11 think it's their legislation or in their protocols,

12 they might have had an interest in either objecting to

13 her evidence or objecting to the documents that have

14 been produced.

15 We now know that she had made no request of

16 them. The matter hadn't been clarified. The Chamber

17 will have observed, from the questions I asked before

18 the break, that there may be very little need ever to

19 turn to these exhibits again, because I think they were

20 summarised in a few questions and answers, although

21 Mr. Naumovski drew some comfort from a couple of

22 documents in re-examination.

23 And I draw all this to the Court's

24 attention. If it took the view that there was

25 absolutely no value in these documents or no value

Page 19636

1 beyond what it's already heard and was concerned not to

2 cause offence to an important party in all these

3 historical matters, one way to deal with it might be to

4 no longer count the exhibits as produced, but it's

5 entirely a matter for the Court.

6 And I have -- after this has been disposed

7 of, there is one short administrative matter that I'd

8 like to deal with before we call the next witness.

9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]

10 Mr. Naumovski, please be brief, because I do not

11 believe that this should give rise to a major debate.

12 I do not quite understand why Mr. Nice came back to

13 this, but it is so. We've discussed this earlier on.

14 We're dealing with a witness, very local witness, who

15 apparently did not have any access to major decisions

16 made by the Red Cross.

17 All the documents we have received had to do

18 with the way food was distributed and do not, at all,

19 violate the major principles of the Red Cross i.e.,

20 independence and neutrality among others. Therefore we

21 shouldn't be dragged into unnecessary discussion.

22 So it's up to you, Mr. Naumovski, you have

23 the floor.

24 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

25 you said what I was about to say. That was precisely

Page 19637

1 that. Thank you.

2 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Should the

3 Red Cross wish to intervene in some way or other, it

4 will do so. But for the time being, we have decided to

5 listen to this witness. We have listened to her

6 starting from the idea, also from the fact, that she

7 was a local employee, a locally-recruited employee

8 dealing with -- carrying out things and not making

9 decisions. She was distributing food at the local

10 level and that is about it.

11 Do you have any further questions, Mr. Nice?

12 MR. NICE: Not at all.

13 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] On another

14 issue maybe.

15 MR. NICE: Only on another issue which will

16 only take a minute. We are not sitting tomorrow and

17 we're not sitting on Monday and, of course, Judge May

18 isn't with us today.

19 Several affidavits have been introduced this

20 week and in order to avoid offending the seven day

21 rule, I had it in mind that we might carve out of the

22 timetable ten minutes at the end of today and then

23 dispose of this week's affidavits, and in that orderly

24 way save time and ensure that nothing got overlooked.

25 I suspect that you're not necessarily in a

Page 19638

1 position to make decisions about affidavits if you're

2 not fully formed with three judges. I'm not sure about

3 that.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] This is what

6 we're going to do: We're going to deal with the next

7 testimony and fending objections by the Defence, we

8 shall work a little -- we shall postpone the time

9 period scheduled or catered for the affidavits, so

10 you'll have time until Tuesday.

11 If the Defence agree.

12 MR. SAYERS: No objection, Your Honour.

13 Under the circumstances, and just for the Trial

14 Chamber's information, we have prepared a document that

15 summarises all the affidavits filed to date, at least

16 the ones that have not already been previously

17 summarised, as we were requested to do, and I can

18 distribute that to the Trial Chamber at the end of the

19 evidence today.

20 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you

21 very much. I think it would be very useful. Thank

22 you.

23 Can we call the next witness?

24 Yes, Mr. Nice.

25 MR. NICE: Yes, of course we can call the

Page 19639

1 next witness.

2 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] I think the

3 issue of the affidavits is now postponed, so you've got

4 more time. You've got time until Tuesday.

5 MR. NICE: Thank you.

6 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] So we'll

7 discuss that on Tuesday.

8 Can we call the next witness.

9 MR. SAYERS: There's an application for

10 protective measures. If we could go into private

11 session, I can explain it in a few moments.

12 [Private session]

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 19640

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 19641

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 19642

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 19643

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 19644

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

















Page 19645


2 --- On resuming at 2.30 p.m.

3 [The witness entered court]


5 [Witness answered through interpreter]

6 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Would you

7 please take the oath.

8 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

9 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

10 truth.

11 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12 Please take a seat.

13 MR. SAYERS: Thank you, Your Honour.

14 Examined by Mr. Sayers:

15 Q. Good afternoon, sir. The Court has granted

16 the request for protective measures that you requested,

17 and you will be known, for purposes of this

18 examination, as Witness DG. I would like you just to

19 read the name that is contained on this piece of paper,

20 please, and confirm for the Judges that this is indeed

21 your name, sir.

22 A. Yes.

23 MR. SAYERS: Your Honour, if it would be

24 possible to go into private session while we go over

25 the basic identifying background data regarding the

Page 19646

1 witness.

2 [Private session]

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 19647

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 19648

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 19649

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)


Page 19650

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 [Open session]

7 A. In 1993, the work of the police force was

8 extremely difficult. The conditions were very bad in

9 1993. There was an open conflict, there was a war, and

10 it was a fierce war that went on.

11 And one of tasks of the police was to protect

12 the defence lines and prevent the Muslim forces from

13 crossing them. We only had four or five police

14 officers for civilian duties and we tried to cover the

15 territory of the Busovaca municipality and tried to

16 provide a minimum of security for the civilian

17 population living there.

18 In addition to those problems, I need to

19 mention that the lack of vehicles, fuel, equipment, and

20 everything else.

21 Q. All right. Let's take it one step at a time,

22 Witness DG. The Court has heard considerable evidence

23 about the influx of refugees, undocumented refugees,

24 into the Busovaca municipality at various times

25 throughout 1993.

Page 19651

1 There's no need to repeat all of that. Just

2 from the perspective of the law enforcement officer,

3 sir, could you give the Judges some sort of -- some

4 kind of picture as to the impact that this influx of

5 refugees had on law and order in the Busovaca

6 municipality.

7 A. As far as this problem is concerned, that was

8 one of the most acute problems. Because in 1993, the

9 number of displaced and refugees approached the number

10 of the local population, the police has -- had no

11 accurate registration of these individuals.

12 We did not know whether some of them had

13 criminal records, so it was extremely hard for us to

14 cover that, and if any crime occurred, we were unable

15 to respond because we did not have the right

16 information, data on the people who were there. We did

17 not have their files and so on.

18 And in such conditions, I believe it was

19 very, very hard to work and I need to point out that

20 these displaced people and refugees were expelled by

21 mostly Muslims and Serbs, and it made things much more

22 difficult for the local population in Busovaca.

23 Q. At the beginning of 1993, could you tell the

24 Court about how many officers the police precinct

25 actually had in Busovaca?

Page 19652

1 A. In early 1993, combined active duty and

2 reserve police officers, the number was around 70. I'm

3 not exactly sure, but as the year went on, the police

4 force kept diminishing. Some of them were killed in

5 the front lines, some of them were manning the defence

6 lines, and we needed to send a number of police

7 officers to the lines of defence in the various

8 shifts.

9 So by the end of 1993, the number of police

10 officers was about 35. They were divided into two

11 groups of 15 each. That is, they went to the lines of

12 defence in cases of any attacks or any combat

13 operations of any significant scale, and they stayed

14 there for as long as it was necessary, whereas the

15 other five or six police officers stayed behind and

16 worked on regular activities which included

17 distribution of humanitarian aid, on-site

18 investigations of various crimes and so on.

19 Everything else that is part and parcel of

20 the police work.

21 Q. All right. And in terms of the equipment

22 that you had; cars and so forth, to be able to patrol

23 the municipality, could you just give the Trial Chamber

24 a sense of how well equipped your police force was,

25 sir?

Page 19653

1 A. There was a problem with the fuel. If you

2 had vehicles, then the problems were how to use those

3 vehicles. We had to use them to drive the police

4 officers to the lines of defence, so as far as the

5 overall work of the police force is concerned, the

6 conditions were very bad.

7 Q. Were you able to pay your men, sir, when you

8 were (redacted) in September of 1993 and

9 thereafter?

10 A. In 1993, I don't believe we paid out any

11 salaries, only in 1994, after the truce was signed by

12 -- in 1993, there were no salaries paid out.

13 Q. During the civil war in your municipality,

14 sir, what would you assess as being the most

15 significant duty or obligation facing the civilian

16 police force at least from your perspective (redacted)

17 (redacted)?

18 A. First of all, the first task of the police

19 force was defence of the lines of defence because if

20 that collapsed, then everything else would collapse.

21 There were other duties relating to the

22 security of citizens, so that involved patrolling the

23 territory of Busovaca municipality, and we tried to

24 keep the level of security at the highest level.

25 Also, there was investigation of all criminal

Page 19654

1 acts that occurred there so that the regular life could

2 continue. And there were all kinds of problems. There

3 were altercations and quarrels between the displaced

4 and refugees on the one side, and the local people on

5 the other, and so on and so forth.

6 Q. In terms of the military balance of power, if

7 you have any basis to give us your estimate, sir, how

8 would you assess the armed forces of the ABiH as

9 compared to the armed forces of the HVO in terms of

10 manpower?

11 A. The ratio was at least one to ten. The

12 mobilisation, the mobilisation was carried out at 110

13 per cent level. That means that every -- all male

14 potential conscripts were mobilised. And as far as

15 that period is concerned, everything was under control

16 and all criminal acts were also under the jurisdiction

17 of military police because all people had -- were

18 mobilised.

19 Q. All right. In terms of the one to ten

20 estimate that you gave us, in whose favour?

21 A. In favour of the Muslims, of course. We

22 were -- there were -- the Croats were ten times fewer.

23 Q. Now, you mentioned the military police. Were

24 the civilian police and the military police working

25 side by side during this time or did the civilian

Page 19655

1 police essentially cease to function and their function

2 was taken over by the military police or not. You tell

3 us.

4 A. Sometime in 1992, towards the end of 1992,

5 the military police took over the police station, the

6 public security station in Busovaca, and at that time,

7 the civilian police ceased to exist.

8 But in late 1992, early 1993, the military

9 police withdrew from the police station, the public

10 security station, and then the civilian police was --

11 again re-established and started to work. They did

12 their work because at that time, they were all active

13 military personnel and they were -- they had much more

14 work but we continued to do our job.

15 Q. All right. If a crime were to be committed

16 involving a soldier, whose jurisdiction would that fall

17 under? Did the civilian police have any jurisdiction

18 to investigate or take any punitive measures against

19 the responsible person or not?

20 A. Because everyone was mobilised, the civilian

21 police had no jurisdiction. Everything became the

22 jurisdiction of the military police. But we would both

23 go on the scenes of crime to do our work during 1993.

24 Q. What kinds of things fell within the

25 jurisdiction of the civilian police then, Witness DG?

Page 19656

1 A. As far as the jurisdiction of the civilian

2 police, it was the defence of the territory. This was

3 the principal task. For the rest, it was the

4 investigation of certain crimes that were not that

5 serious, and trying to resolve all problems that had

6 arisen, let's say between the refugees and displaced

7 persons and the local population, and all other

8 problems that were topical at the time, such as

9 distribution of humanitarian aid under the threat of

10 shelling and other work that falls within the police

11 work.

12 We also had to do certain things that would

13 fall within the inspection domain, but we had to do

14 whatever we could in order to make the life as

15 tolerable as possible.

16 Q. All right. Two points. With respect to the

17 shelling that you mentioned, was Busovaca shelled? If

18 it was, how frequently and by whom, sir, in 1993?

19 A. Busovaca was shelled frequently by the

20 Muslims. Those shells fell around the town and there

21 were cases when the civilians were killed. I believe

22 that in 1993, the shelling was especially intense. I

23 think most of all in April and middle part of the

24 year.

25 We had an officer who was trained in

Page 19657

1 demining, and he did that especially to provide

2 additional safety for the children in the town.

3 Q. All right. Second point, checkpoints. Did

4 the civilian police have any duties or responsibilities

5 in connection with checkpoints, about which we've heard

6 a lot of evidence in this case?

7 A. Yes. The civilian police had two

8 checkpoints. One was near the restaurant Sunce on the

9 road leading from Busovaca to Kaonik, and the other was

10 at the Mediapan company which was on the road to

11 Zenica. There were police officers whose task was to

12 control the movement of people and goods and everything

13 else. So their tasks were clearly defined. I believe

14 that at one of these checkpoints, at the restaurant

15 Sunce, there was also the military police presence so

16 that he could solve problems that would fall within his

17 jurisdiction.

18 Q. All right. Now, who was the president of the

19 municipal HVO government (redacted)

20 (redacted), Witness DG?

21 A. Zoran Maric.

22 Q. And did you report to him in discussing the

23 security situation regarding -- or throughout Busovaca

24 municipality?

25 A. We sent reports to Mr. Maric. I did so. It

Page 19658

1 was done on a regular basis. Every other day we would

2 compile a report on everything that happened during

3 that period, and occasionally we would try to talk to

4 him, and we would try to solve the problems as much as

5 it was possible, even though both of us were not really

6 able to solve everything because it was a time of war

7 and it was difficult to operate.

8 Also, we sent reports to the brigade

9 commanders so that he could take steps within his

10 jurisdiction; that is, if we registered anything that

11 members of his brigade may have done, we reported that

12 to him so that he could take certain steps.

13 Q. And the brigade commander you just mentioned,

14 who would that be?

15 A. Dusko Grubesic.

16 Q. All right. The next thing I'd like to cover

17 with you, Witness DG, is events leading up to the ABiH

18 attack in Busovaca in the latter part of January 1993.

19 Could you just give the Trial Chamber a feel for the

20 events that immediately preceded that attack, as you

21 saw them?

22 A. Before the attack of ABiH, there were certain

23 things that foreshadowed an inevitable conflict. There

24 was a series of incidents throughout the territory.

25 There was a concentration of forces at Kacuni. It was

Page 19659

1 widely known that the 7th Muslim Brigade was stationed

2 there and that other Bosniak troops were being deployed

3 there. The women and children were moving out while

4 the men stayed behind in the town. Everything -- it

5 was clear that some problems were coming up.

6 Q. Did you hear about an incident involving a

7 checkpoint, and people being apprehended at that

8 checkpoint, a few days before the fighting in January

9 of 1993?

10 A. I heard about it. People talked about it on

11 those days. I heard that at a checkpoint manned by

12 Bosnian Muslims, Ignjac Kostroman had been stopped and

13 there were problems there, but some humanitarian aid

14 was passing through and also some men arrived from

15 Busovaca, and the situation was resolved to everybody's

16 satisfaction, if I can put it that way. But I heard

17 that he was moving from Travnik and Busovaca in the

18 direction of Kresevo, and later it was talked about a

19 lot, even on the radio.

20 Q. Did you ever hear anybody make the contention

21 that Mr. Kordic was present at this incident in which

22 Mr. Kostroman was apprehended by ABiH troops at that

23 checkpoint?

24 A. No, I did not hear about that.

25 Q. All right. Let me draw your attention to an

Page 19660

1 incident on January the 24th of 1993, just one day

2 before the outbreak of fighting, sir. Did you hear

3 about any provocations or incidents at the checkpoint

4 in Kacuni?

5 A. I heard that on that date, 24th, I think it

6 was a Sunday, at the checkpoint in Kacuni two Croats

7 were killed. This incident happened -- I don't know

8 the reasons, but the Muslims had erected a checkpoint

9 and they killed two Croats. Of course, this had an

10 echo and it affected the security situation. People

11 saw that an open conflict was imminent.

12 Q. Do you recall the names of those two Croats

13 who were killed at the checkpoint on the 24th of

14 January, 1993?

15 A. One was from Busovaca, Ivica Petrovic. He

16 was a military police. I knew him. And the other one,

17 I believe, was either from Kresevo or Kiseljak. His

18 first name was Igor. I don't know his last name.

19 Q. Could you tell the Court what you were --

20 what your involvement in the fighting on the 25th of

21 January was, if any?

22 A. On the 25th, I was at Krcevine. That was the

23 headquarters of the 2nd Battalion. I reported there to

24 see what was going on and to see what my role in it

25 would be, because I saw that on the 25th, the open

Page 19661

1 conflict had broken out and in those -- at that day, I

2 spent there, and in the evening, we -- the evening we

3 spent in the battalion headquarters.

4 I think we went to the front line at the

5 village of Kula. Myself and several colleagues, we

6 went to see -- because there was already shooting and

7 then we went back to Krcevine to the battalion and we

8 told them that there was -- that there weren't enough

9 soldiers there and that we needed to mobilise more

10 people, that there were huge areas completely empty.

11 Q. As I understand it, as you previously

12 testified, you were wounded the next day, January 26th,

13 1993, and you then went to work for the police -- for

14 the civilian police as an investigator, but were

15 hospitalised again in March of 1993 because of problems

16 with your internal organs.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you had to undergo surgery, convalescing

19 at home and you began to resume your responsibilities

20 with the police precinct in the latter part of April, I

21 believe.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. All right, sir. Just to address a specific

24 incident that the Prosecution claims occurred in this

25 case. There is a contention made that a large UNHCR

Page 19662

1 convoy escorted by armoured vehicles from UNPROFOR was

2 hijacked in the town of Busovaca on April 28th, 1993.

3 Did you ever hear anything about that or see

4 anything of that sort in Busovaca, sir?

5 A. I never heard anything about it, nor did I

6 see anything.

7 Q. All right. You've mentioned the checkpoints

8 that were maintained by the civilian police force, two

9 in number. Could you tell the Court how the civilian

10 policemen that actually manned those checkpoints were

11 dressed? Were they wearing camouflage uniforms? Were

12 they wearing something else? You tell us.

13 A. The checkpoint usually was manned by two

14 policemen, two civilian policemen, and a military

15 policemen next to the Sunce restaurant where -- there

16 was another place, again, two policemen. At first they

17 wore camouflage uniforms then they were in blue

18 uniforms.

19 As for their work, there was a sequence of

20 tasks which they had to perform and they simply

21 complied with that, so there was nothing out of the

22 ordinary.

23 The chief task was the transportation of

24 merchandise. If something came from Herzegovina, then

25 had he the authority from the government of

Page 19663

1 Herceg-Bosna or somebody else to see what it was. To

2 see whether we agreed with that and let it through.

3 As for the transportation of merchandise

4 within Busovaca, that was being done by the Department

5 of Economy and that was, of course, the task of the

6 civilian police.

7 Q. All right, Witness DG, let me ask you a

8 question about Mr. Kordic. What authority did he have

9 in relation to checkpoints and the manning of

10 checkpoints by the civilian police. Did he have any?

11 A. No authority in so far as the checkpoints and

12 the -- or the civilian police were concerned.

13 Q. All right. In all of the time that you were

14 in the police force, throughout the civil war, sir,

15 have you ever heard of any convoys being apprehended in

16 Busovaca or that Mr. Kordic had any role in such an

17 affair?

18 A. I did not hear that he ever stopped a convoy

19 in Busovaca or that Mr. Kordic had something to do with

20 it. I really don't know.

21 Q. All right. Your Honours, moving on to

22 paragraph 22, and we're trying to take this as

23 expeditiously as possible.

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 19664

1 (redacted)?

2 A. Well, I did not have to submit any reports.

3 From time to time, I would notify about some events

4 which would be of interest, and were of interest to

5 politicians.

6 Q. All right. Did Mr. Kordic ever issue any

7 orders to you or to any of the police officers under

8 your command, as far as you're aware?

9 A. As far as I'm aware, no.

10 Q. Have you ever heard that Mr. Kordic ever

11 issued an order to the Nikola Subic-Zrinjski Brigade,

12 any officer, any soldier in that brigade, sir?

13 A. I never heard anything like that.

14 Q. One final question. You've known Mr. Kordic

15 for some time. Having known him since your student

16 days, have you ever heard him use derogatory or

17 pejorative terms when referring to members of any other

18 ethnic group other than Croats, obviously?

19 A. No, I did not hear anything like that,

20 because he's simply not like that.

21 Q. In any of his private or public statements,

22 have you ever heard Mr. Kordic advocate hatred,

23 discrimination or the perpetration of violence against

24 any other ethnic group?

25 A. I did not hear anything of the sort.

Page 19665

1 Q. Could you tell the Court a little bit about

2 Mr. Kordic as you saw him, sir?

3 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Sayers,

4 sorry for interrupting you.

5 I'd like to ask Witness DG the following

6 thing. He just told us that, as a rule, he would not

7 inform Mr. Dario Kordic, but that every now and then he

8 would on issues that would interest or concern him as a

9 politician.

10 Could the witness be more specific? What was

11 the kind of information, Witness DG, that you would

12 send to Dario Kordic and in what capacity would you

13 send him this information?

14 A. Yes, of course, I can explain that. As far

15 as I can remember now, I believe I submitted two

16 reports to him (redacted). One concerned

17 problems in the work of the Red Cross, because there

18 had been complaints registered by citizens. They were

19 not happy about it. I believe it was late 1993, end of

20 1993, something like that.

21 I believe I sent him that kind of information

22 because, naturally, I mean, he was a politician, that

23 he should be concerned about these matters. Also in my

24 capacity as (redacted)

25 (redacted).

Page 19666

1 These were the aggregate indicators about the

2 number of crimes, offences, how the police worked in

3 1993, what it did, where it did. I mean those were

4 simply aggregate indicators of the crimes.

5 I believe those were the two instances when I

6 informed Mr. Kordic about our activities.

7 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] The second

8 part of the question I wanted to put to you, Witness

9 DG, when you would inform him or when you would talk to

10 him, what was the capacity he was in? What was his

11 political responsibility?

12 A. Well, I wouldn't really know which political

13 office he held at the time. I simply wrote to

14 Mr. Dario Kordic. I never wrote any title or rank or

15 anything, simply Mr. Dario Kordic.

16 I don't really know what he did at the time

17 or what was the office he held. I don't really know.

18 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Yes, but you

19 would send documents to him such as statistics as to

20 work done by the police. I mean, these are significant

21 documents, after all, and you wouldn't send such

22 documents to just anybody. You selected Dario Kordic

23 for some reason, didn't you?

24 A. Yes. He was a politician and he was well

25 known. He was the president or the vice-president of

Page 19667

1 the HDZ. I don't know exactly, but I know that he was

2 a politician, and a politician who was highly

3 appreciated in the area. So I submitted information to

4 him because I believed it would be of interest to him.

5 It was very important, the distribution of

6 humanitarian relief, the work of the police,

7 communication with citizens, and we simply thought

8 people might ask him if they were not happy about

9 something, and he needed information to be able to

10 answer.

11 It is the practice to this day that the

12 (redacted) police inform politicians of matters of

13 interest to them, the humanitarian aid, the situation

14 with the traffic, crime rate, and so on and so forth.

15 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

16 Mr. Sayers.

17 MR. SAYERS: Thank you very much, Your

18 Honour. I only have one composite exhibit for

19 Witness DG. This was already admitted as Exhibit D450

20 in the Blaskic case, Your Honours. If I might just

21 have it distributed and marked as an exhibit in this

22 case. I only have a very few questions for the witness

23 about it.

24 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit will be marked

25 D240/1.

Page 19668

1 MR. SAYERS: Thank you.

2 Q. You probably can't read the index,

3 Witness DG, but there are a number of self-explanatory

4 items on there. Item A is entitled Crimes Against

5 Muslims; item B, Crimes Against Croats; item C, the

6 mosque, I'll ask you some questions about that in just

7 a minute; item D, Crimes by Muslims; E, The Topalovic

8 Case; F, Statements of Muslims Desiring to Leave

9 Busovaca; G, Statements of Croats Arriving in Busovaca

10 From ABiH Territory; H, Busovaca Civil Police Reports;

11 I and J, Data Regarding Croat Refugees Who Left

12 Portions of Busovaca Municipality Under the Control of

13 the ABiH; and item K, Data About the Destruction of

14 Croat Houses in the Busovaca Municipality.

15 Could you just turn to tab --

16 MR. NICE: May I be heard first, please.

17 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Yes,

18 Mr. Nice.

19 MR. NICE: I have no idea what the foundation

20 is for this witness producing this enormous amount of

21 material, and if it is admissible through him, the

22 foundation ought to be laid.

23 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice

24 [sic], could you please introduce this document? What

25 is this all about?

Page 19669

1 MR. SAYERS: You mean "Mr. Sayers," Your

2 Honour.

3 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Indeed.

4 Sorry.

5 MR. SAYERS: The only tab that I wanted to

6 draw to this witness's attention was tab H.

7 Q. Could you just take a look at tab H which is

8 part of this Blaskic exhibit?

9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Wait a

10 minute. This is the question I wanted to put to you:

11 You just read out the index of this document, but what

12 is this? Is this a report? What is it?

13 MR. SAYERS: These are a compilation of

14 records maintained in the civilian police department at

15 the time that Witness DG was, a police officer; (redacted)

16 (redacted).

17 So these are official records, and I just wanted to get

18 the witness to review these and just confirm that these

19 were authentic records of the police department, Your

20 Honour.

21 Since there was a foundation objection made,

22 I think that's the appropriate way to address the

23 foundation, (redacted)

24 (redacted),

25 confirm that these are indeed records of the police

Page 19670

1 department.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Yes.

4 MR. NICE: I observe that the majority of the

5 material is untranslated. I obviously can't deal with

6 the exhibit at all. Also to observe that apparently

7 it's only one part of it, which is part H that

8 Mr. Sayers now wants in.

9 What mustn't happen is that a document be let

10 in on some ground as to some tiny part of it, in due

11 course the whole document being referred to for some

12 other purpose. And if there's only a purpose in

13 relation to part H, then at the most part H should go

14 in. But if part H isn't translated, I don't really

15 know how I'm supposed to deal with it today.

16 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Please

17 continue, Mr. Sayers. If I understood properly,

18 according to you, the foundation you offer is that

19 these are document records from the police department

20 at a time when Witness DG was working there.

21 MR. SAYERS: Precisely.

22 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Very well.

23 Carry on.


25 Q. I was going to turn your attention

Page 19671

1 specifically to tab H, but I wonder if you could just

2 review these records. Just take a minute or so to

3 review those records, sir, and could you just tell the

4 Trial Chamber whether these are indeed records that

5 were maintained by the civilian police department in

6 Busovaca.

7 A. Yes. These are documents that were written

8 at the police station in Busovaca. These are official

9 notes written by members of the police station about

10 individual incidents, taking of statements, press

11 releases about individual developments in order to draw

12 the attention of the public to them, and we see here

13 statements of citizens about the developments or

14 events.

15 Q. Witness DG, if I can interrupt you there.

16 MR. SAYERS: I must say, Your Honours,

17 Mr. Nice does have a point since there appear not to be

18 translations here or at least of some of these

19 documents, which is surprising to me since this is the

20 exhibit, the original exhibit in Blaskic. So I don't

21 propose to ask Witness DG any specific questions about

22 these documents. I don't think that would necessarily

23 be fair to the Prosecution. We'll just have to wait

24 and submit these, as we've done, to the Translation

25 Unit and get translations in due course.

Page 19672

1 Q. If I might, though, test your memory,

2 Witness DG.

3 MR. SAYERS: And for purposes of this series

4 of questions that deals with paragraph 25, I wonder if

5 we might go into private session.

6 [Private session]

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 19673

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 19674

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 [Open session]

22 MR. SAYERS: Thank you, very much.

23 Q. Now, Witness DG, we've heard in September of

24 1993 the mosque in Busovaca was set on fire or caught

25 fire. Could you tell the Trial Chamber whether you had

Page 19675

1 any connection with trying to put that fire out or not?

2 A. Yes, when the mosque in Busovaca was set on

3 fire, I was in the police station with my colleagues.

4 I came out to the scene.

5 We tried to put the fire out, but it was

6 impossible because the fire had already reached the

7 roof and we also called the firemen. They arrived

8 after a while and tried to extinguish the fire. I

9 believe the damage was considerable, but the fire was

10 eventually put out.

11 Q. All right. Just a few final topics and I

12 will be through in five minutes, I hope.

13 There's been a contention in this case that

14 the Bosnian Croats, through their leadership, indulged

15 in a policy of deliberate persecution harassment of

16 people of non-Croat ethnicity.

17 As the chief of police from September of 1939

18 until the end of the war, could you give the Trial

19 Chamber your perspective on the accuracy or legitimacy

20 of those sort of contentions there?

21 A. That contention is absolutely false. We

22 never had any such orders. What happened, happened.

23 And what happened was a large-scale horrible war which

24 victimised us all.

25 Q. Did you ever receive any instructions or

Page 19676

1 encouragement to turn a blind eye to the bad things

2 that were happening to Muslim and Serb residents of the

3 municipality, Witness DG?

4 A. No, I never received any such orders, nor did

5 anyone tell me to do anything like that. Quite simply,

6 there were no such orders.

7 Q. Were you ever ordered to ease up on your

8 attempted investigation of crimes committed against

9 Muslims specifically or to discriminate against them in

10 any other way, or encouraged either directly or

11 indirectly?

12 A. No, never, either directly or indirectly. We

13 were always asked to do our utmost to protect everybody

14 who happened to be in the territory at the time, and to

15 try to ensure a normal life in so far as that was

16 possible at that time and in view of that war.

17 Q. All right. As I understand it, sir,

18 Mr. Franjo Kristo was the commander of the civilian

19 police force during 1991.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. He was involved, and the Court's heard a lot

22 of evidence about this. He was involved with a group

23 of other Busovaca residents, including Mr. Kordic, in

24 stopping a JNA convoy transporting weapons, I believe,

25 at the end of 1991.

Page 19677

1 A. Yes. Franjo Kristo was the commander of the

2 public security station in 1991, and his immediate

3 superior was Husnija Neslanovic.

4 I heard about the incident in 1991 with the

5 convoy of armament of the JNA was -- took place. Dario

6 participated in that and Franjo, but Husnija Neslanovic

7 did not want to get involved in this, refused to take

8 part.

9 They did not want to get in trouble with the

10 Yugoslav People's Army, and since I know Franjo very

11 well, I know that he had major problems because he

12 stopped that convoy. He had those problems with

13 Husnija Neslanovic and the Muslim police at the time.

14 Q. What happened to Mr. Kristo after this convoy

15 incident that you've just described?

16 A. Well, what I heard was that his name was

17 struck off the payroll. That he did not get his salary

18 anymore. That Neslanovic simply could not approve such

19 an action against the Yugoslav People's Army and showed

20 him, without mixed words, that he disapproved of that;

21 so he had problems afterwards.

22 MR. SAYERS: All right. Thank you very much

23 indeed. No further questions.

24 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you

25 very much, Mr. Sayers.

Page 19678

1 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] No questions,

2 Your Honour.

3 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice.

4 MR. NICE: I'll deal with some topics with

5 this witness, but almost certainly I shan't be able to

6 cover anything, but there's another witness coming from

7 the same municipality next week so I should be able to

8 put most of my case one way or the other. I hope

9 that's satisfactory. Alternatively, to cover matters

10 extensively, would not be possible this afternoon.

11 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice:

12 Q. We aren't going to look at these documents

13 that have been produced today. They may or may not be

14 looked at later. But help me with this, please, when

15 these documents were selected for the Blaskic case,

16 where were you?

17 A. I believe that I was still with the police at

18 the time. I don't know when they were being selected,

19 and I don't know who selected them.

20 Q. It follows, therefore, that you don't know by

21 what criteria they have been selected at all?

22 A. As far as criteria are concerned, I don't

23 know what criteria were used by -- I know that these

24 documents are all from the Busovaca police station,

25 that they were all drafted in the Busovaca police

Page 19679

1 station and that as such, I can say that those are the

2 documents.

3 Q. Does it follow --

4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice, I

5 do not think it would really be in order to go back to

6 that discussion of this document because you do not

7 have the translations. You do not know the contents of

8 these documents and, therefore, I do not think it would

9 be in order to waste too much time discussing these

10 documents.

11 MR. NICE: Very well.

12 Q. I'm not going to spend any more time

13 discussing these documents for I've reached the point I

14 want to and it's this: At the time of the selection of

15 these documents, the full records of the police station

16 existed, probably those full records exist to this

17 day. Would that be correct?

18 A. The police records, that is the archive, is

19 in the police station.

20 Q. Have you, yourself, turned to that archive at

21 all before coming here to give evidence today?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did you try to or did you simply not even

24 think of doing it?

25 A. I simply didn't need it.

Page 19680

1 Q. And your summary that we were served,

2 whenever it was, how long has that been in the

3 preparation, please; days, weeks, months?

4 A. I prepared the outline when I arrived here,

5 that is, in the last four or five days.

6 Q. With no earlier discussions with the lawyers?

7 A. I talked to the lawyers about maybe a year

8 ago in Busovaca on whether I would come here and

9 testify and give evidence.

10 Q. When were you first asked to turn your mind

11 back, please, to the incident at the checkpoint. When

12 did you first start the process of remembering all

13 about the checkpoint incident?

14 A. Can you please specify what incident?

15 Q. The one where you told us something about

16 Mr. Kostroman.

17 A. That was the incident in Kacuni. When we

18 first talked in Busovaca, we talked in general about

19 all topics, and I think one of the topics was this.

20 There was a time line, and what I remembered, what I

21 didn't remember, what happened, what didn't happen, and

22 it is probably at that time that we also covered that

23 topic.

24 Q. And until then and between 1993 and then,

25 1999, had you had any occasion to focus on that

Page 19681

1 incident and try and remember details about it or not?

2 A. I didn't think about it, but I remembered it

3 because, in that period, everybody talked about it.

4 You could hear it on the radio and elsewhere.

5 It was very clear to everyone that had the

6 humanitarian aid convoy not appear, he would not be

7 able to get out of there and it wouldn't -- it all

8 would not have ended up well for him.

9 Q. I'll come to the humanitarian aid convoy and

10 its involvement in all of this in a minute. But

11 between 1993 and 1999, you hadn't looked at any police

12 report on this incident, had you?

13 A. No.

14 Q. You don't have a diary or do you?

15 A. I have nothing specially.

16 Q. So in six years, or after six years and then

17 now after seven, you are able to remember something

18 about Mr. Kostroman. What happened to him, please?

19 A. Excuse me, shall I repeat what happened to

20 him at the checkpoint? I didn't understand the

21 question.

22 Q. Yes. I want the detail from you, please, of

23 what happened to Mr. Kostroman at that checkpoint.

24 A. I know that in those days, people talked and

25 I heard that on that day at the checkpoint in Kacuni,

Page 19682

1 Kostroman was stopped, together with his team. He was

2 going from Travnik in the direction of Kresevo his

3 home, he was stopped by the Muslims, that there were

4 some problems.

5 I heard that a convoy arrived and, meanwhile,

6 some men heard that in Busovaca and went over there to

7 see what was going on. And it -- and I don't know how

8 it ended up. I don't know if they came back to

9 Busovaca, but I know that there were no problems.

10 This is what I remember, this is what I --

11 what stayed in my memory, but this event echoed around

12 because Mr. Kostroman at that time was a well-known

13 politician.

14 Q. Was he kidnapped and abducted or stopped or

15 what happened to him?

16 A. I cannot specify those details. I heard what

17 I heard. I was not present there, and I heard what I

18 heard. That's what I said.

19 Q. You said something -- this is the last

20 question about the detail I'm going to ask you about

21 because of want of time, but you've said something

22 about -- one last of two questions -- something about

23 Kresevo. Who was going to Kresevo?

24 A. Mr. Kostroman, from what I heard. He was

25 going either from Vitez or Travnik.

Page 19683

1 Q. And the last question on detail, before I

2 move on, this humanitarian aid convoy, what part did

3 that play?

4 A. You mean the convoy which appeared at a

5 checkpoint when Mr. Kostroman was stopped?

6 Q. Yes. What part did that play?

7 A. I don't know exactly what role it played, but

8 it probably appeared, and this is what created all this

9 commotion and this is why Mr. Kostroman was able to

10 pull out, but I did not hear any further details.

11 Q. Well, now, we know -- what was the date of

12 this incident? Perhaps you'll help us with that.

13 A. I cannot recall exactly, but I know that it

14 was before the conflict. Perhaps a couple of days

15 before. I cannot recall exactly, but I -- perhaps a

16 couple of days before.

17 Q. Where were you?

18 A. I was in Busovaca, in the police -- no, the

19 inspection.

20 Q. You see, what I don't quite understand from

21 your summary -- perhaps you can help me with this -- is

22 your paragraph 3 where you say that in the second part

23 of 1992 you joined the HVO as a soldier, you were sent

24 to the front line and defended Paklarevo, and on the

25 26th of January you were injured.

Page 19684

1 Now, were you continuously at the front line

2 until you were injured?

3 A. No. At that time, the members of the

4 Busovaca HVO went to the line of defence at Paklarevo

5 against the army of Bosnian Serbs, and they would stay

6 there three to five days. I went twice. So that means

7 that I spent four or five days the first tour and then

8 went back, did my regular work, and went again. I

9 think I was there for only two or three days. It was a

10 shorter period of next time.

11 Q. So are you telling the Judges that on the day

12 that Kostroman was -- whatever happened to him, you

13 were actually in Busovaca that very same day, that very

14 same evening?

15 A. I was somewhere in the town. I don't know

16 exactly where. I cannot recall exactly.

17 Q. Who brought you the news of this incident

18 involving Kostroman?

19 A. People talked around town. That was the top

20 story of the day.

21 Q. What else happened in town that very evening,

22 please? Anything special?

23 A. I don't know what you have in mind.

24 Q. Well, for example, if on the same evening the

25 mosque had caught fire, you'd remember that, wouldn't

Page 19685

1 you?

2 A. In those -- in that period, there was a

3 series of incidents. One followed the other. It is

4 hard to remember all of them. It was -- there was just

5 this horrible feeling that the conflict was pending.

6 Q. You still can't remember any other particular

7 incident that happened that evening after the incident

8 at the checkpoint? Is that what you're telling us?

9 A. Excuse me. Can you repeat this? I'm not

10 quite sure what you were driving at.

11 Q. You really can't remember any other

12 particular event happening on that same evening of the

13 checkpoint event?

14 A. I don't know what I should try to remember.

15 Q. Well, you obviously can't. It was that

16 evening that the Muslim businesses were blown up. Are

17 you sure you were in Busovaca that evening?

18 A. That evening, I was in Busovaca, at home with

19 my family. And in those days, as I said, there was a

20 series of incidents. Now that you mention that these

21 Muslim premises were blown up; yes, there were

22 explosive devices set up in Muslim business premises.

23 Q. Thank you very much. In fact, all the Muslim

24 premises were destroyed that evening, weren't they?

25 Small town, only about 11 of them.

Page 19686

1 A. I'm not sure that it was all of them.

2 Q. But there was something that happened that

3 evening as well. Take your time. Tell us what it

4 was.

5 A. I don't know what you're referring to. You

6 mean the killing of -- the murder of Mr. Delija?

7 Q. Thank you.

8 A. I think that that happened around that time.

9 Q. Well, tell us about that. Who murdered him?

10 A. I don't know who murdered him. I heard that

11 a group arrived in front of Mr. Delija's house and that

12 he was killed at his doorstep. This is what I heard.

13 This is what people talked about in town.

14 Q. At this time, you were a soldier. In a few

15 weeks' time, you would become a policeman and quite a

16 senior policeman. Would that be correct?

17 A. At that time, I was a regular soldier. After

18 that, I became a regular police officer. It wasn't a

19 high position.

20 Q. Well, the following year you became chief of

21 police, didn't you?

22 A. Only towards the end of the year.

23 Q. Well, now, would you confirm if this be

24 right, but correct me if I'm wrong, would this be

25 right: that the International Community, represented

Page 19687

1 by the United Nations soldiers, were relatively regular

2 visitors in and out of Busovaca?

3 A. As far as I know, they were.

4 Q. And they did their best to keep contacts with

5 policemen and with soldiers, didn't they?

6 A. I'm not sure they did everything they could.

7 Q. Would it be your experience -- correct me if

8 I'm wrong -- that all parties, and in particular the

9 Croats and the Muslims, would make complaints of what

10 was troubling them to the soldiers of the United

11 Nations?

12 A. They probably did.

13 Q. What you have described at the checkpoint,

14 which you say was talked about by everyone, was a

15 highly inflammatory act involving one of Bosnia's

16 foremost Croatian politicians, Kostroman; correct?

17 A. I don't know what you're referring to. Could

18 you please clarify?

19 Q. To hold up, whether he was kidnapped,

20 abducted, disarmed, whatever happened to him, to

21 interfere with someone of the importance of

22 Mr. Kostroman would be a highly inflammatory act;

23 correct?

24 A. You could say so.

25 Q. Do you, incidentally, accept that what

Page 19688

1 followed, the bombings and the murder of Delija were

2 connected to that act or not?

3 A. I cannot say that.

4 Q. Well, if they weren't connected, can you

5 think of any good reason why the local Croats wouldn't

6 complain of Kostroman's arrest to the United Nations

7 soldiers? Can you think of any good reason?

8 A. I'm not sure that they did not complain. I

9 don't know whether they did complain, and I'm not sure

10 whether they complained.

11 Q. I don't know either, but we've only got the

12 material we've got at the moment. Likewise, can you

13 help me with this: If, as you say or as you allow for,

14 the bombings of the Muslim premises and the murder of

15 Delija were in no way connected to the HVO, we should

16 find full and detailed police reports on the incidents,

17 shouldn't we?

18 A. I don't know what went on at the time. I was

19 not with the police force at the time, and I said what

20 I heard about what had happened in the town.

21 Q. Witness DG, you were very soon to become a

22 policeman, and although we don't know whether they'll

23 be admitted into evidence, you've spoken of records,

24 and I haven't gone through them and I don't know what

25 is contained, but please just think again. If the

Page 19689

1 bombing of Muslim premises and the murder of Delija

2 were in no way connected to the HVO, we should find

3 full and unbiased reports on these events in your

4 records, shouldn't we? Not your records. I mean the

5 local police records.

6 A. I don't know what's contained in the

7 archives. I did not work with the police at the time,

8 and what I heard I heard being spoken about in town and

9 I said so.

10 Q. As you know, and it was well known in your

11 side of the community at the time, that these events

12 were all connected and that what happened to Delija was

13 a nasty revenge attack following on an incident at a

14 checkpoint involving Mr. Kordic. That's what you know

15 to be the case, isn't it?

16 A. I don't know that and I do not agree with it.

17 Q. Of course -- by whom were you appointed to

18 your job in the police?

19 A. I think it was the municipal assembly. It

20 was wartime and the police was not well linked up. (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted).

24 Q. Kristo was appointed by Kordic and Kostroman,

25 would you accept that? We can show you the document if

Page 19690

1 necessary, but would you accept that?

2 A. I wouldn't accept that and I don't know who

3 appointed him.

4 MR. NICE: Your Honours, it's Exhibit 175,

5 I'm not going to trouble the Court with the time, and

6 175.1.

7 Q. Kristo, incidentally, do you still keep

8 contact with him?

9 A. Well, we -- we talk to each other, but

10 infrequently. He doesn't live in Busovaca.

11 Q. Do you know what troubles he eventually faced

12 in relation to this conflict with the local courts?

13 A. Excuse me, what conflict?

14 Q. Was he named as a defendant in trials related

15 to the conflict, to your knowledge?

16 A. As far as I know, he was not. I have no

17 access to such information.

18 Q. And before you became a member of the police

19 station, were you aware that he was involved in

20 obtaining guns, trading in and obtaining guns and other

21 weapons, maybe?

22 A. I didn't know. I knew that at the time,

23 everybody was acquiring weapons, both Croats and

24 Muslims because it was clear that a war was coming our

25 way.

Page 19691

1 Q. He was on good terms with Dario Kordic,

2 wasn't he, Kristo?

3 A. I don't know what their relations were.

4 Q. Let me just pursue one other matter.

5 Incidentally, when you say there was an attack on

6 Busovaca in the early part of January -- in January

7 1993, it's not accepted -- there was fighting, but it's

8 not accepted that it was an attack by the Muslims on

9 Busovaca.

10 Just tell us so we can follow this, where do

11 you say the first fighting was located?

12 A. I don't know where the first fighting broke

13 out. I think this was all -- the whole confrontation

14 started on Monday, the 25th.

15 Q. You were -- by two days later, you were

16 wounded. Where were you treated?

17 A. I was wounded in my left leg. The bullet

18 ricocheted --

19 Q. My mistake. I meant in which town were you

20 treated, not whereabouts on your body?

21 A. I was at home, I convalesced at home. I went

22 to the hospital, that is the health centre. I was

23 given first aid. They cleaned out my leg, took out the

24 shrapnel.

25 This was not a direct hit so it was a lighter

Page 19692

1 type of injury, and I went back to my wife and children

2 and I continued to go and then would occasionally go to

3 have my wounds -- my wound dressed in the health

4 centre.

5 Q. Very well. So you were around and on the

6 streets of Busovaca at all material times, correct?

7 A. Excuse me?

8 Q. You were around Busovaca and, to a degree,

9 you were on the streets at all material times. At all

10 the times we were talking about in January of 1993?

11 A. I couldn't walk around immediately. I was

12 mostly at home, but I could walk a little bit.

13 Q. Do you recall, on the 26th and 27th of

14 January, a man, Zoran Glavocevic, instructing Muslims

15 to surrender and to hand over their arms?

16 A. I don't recall that.

17 Q. Well, can you explain to the Judges how the

18 Muslims found themselves in Kaonik? You were there.

19 A. I heard that in the first days, there was

20 fighting in town and that a number of Muslims who

21 were -- who were fit for military service were taken to

22 Kaonik. This was the rumour mill in town that I heard

23 in those days.

24 Q. You subsequently became a policeman with

25 access to the information of the authorities. It was

Page 19693

1 true, wasn't it? The Muslims were rounded up and

2 carted off to Kaonik?

3 A. I would not agree with that.

4 Q. Of course policemen of Muslim ethnicity, what

5 happened to them? They weren't allowed to work in the

6 police station, were they?

7 A. That is not correct. I think that there were

8 a couple of Muslim police officers who worked in the

9 Busovaca police station at the time.

10 Q. What was Sliskovic's role in all of this?

11 A. I couldn't tell you that. I don't know.

12 Q. Were the police in any way under Sliskovic's

13 control?

14 A. No.

15 Q. A matter of detail which I don't understand

16 from your evidence, perhaps you'll help me. You say

17 the HVO were outnumbered by ten to one. Do you base

18 this on research figures or is it a matter of feel?

19 A. More or less everybody knew that there were

20 more Muslims in Central Bosnia. That's a

21 generally-known fact.

22 Q. Well, it may even be something that's not

23 challenged, but you've chosen to tell us it was ten to

24 one. Can you tell us, please, tell us what the

25 brigades were, what the units were. Can you do that

Page 19694

1 for us?

2 A. I cannot tell you that. I don't know. But I

3 know that the ratio was close to that, approximately

4 that.

5 Q. Was this something that you were told on the

6 radio, perhaps the local Busovaca radio and television?

7 A. No, I knew that from before that that was a

8 generally-known thing.

9 Q. And over what general area do you say the

10 figure was ten to one?

11 A. In the area of Central Bosnia.

12 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Witness DG,

13 the question was whether what you told us about the

14 correlation of ten to one. Is it simply a manner of

15 speaking, or did it mean that there was a major

16 disproportion, or is it the accurate ratio that you are

17 offering us?

18 That was the question that you were asked.

19 Why one to ten rather than one to nine or one to

20 eight.

21 A. According to -- in my estimate, according to

22 my knowledge, all that I knew about that, I really

23 think that the ratio was one to ten. I knew then, and

24 I know now, that the Muslims are -- have been much more

25 numerous than we are.

Page 19695

1 I won't mention Zenica. The population of

2 Zenica alone equals the overall number of Croats. So

3 it may be my estimate, but I'm quite sure about this.

4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] But your

5 estimate concerns the armed troops or the population?

6 A. Armed forces, armed troops and the

7 population, because the two are connected.

8 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] And this

9 estimate, where do you -- where did you draw your

10 information from; from police reports, from any

11 particular documents? Could you identify the source?

12 A. Not police reports, simply my own knowledge

13 about the number, about the ratios of the Muslim and

14 Croat population. And, of course, it is common

15 knowledge that there was a large number of Muslims who

16 fled from the Republika Srpska had come to Kacuni and

17 other places with a Muslim majority, so it must have

18 been that ratio, and perhaps it was even higher.

19 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20 MR. NICE:

21 Q. I'm going to move on from these early days of

22 yours in the police force, but let's just crystalise

23 the picture, crystalise the position as at the end of

24 January. Who was running the war, as you understood

25 it, for the politicians?

Page 19696

1 A. I do not really know who it was who ran the

2 war amongst the politicians. As far as I know and

3 understand war, the war was run by the military.

4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice,

5 how long do you think that you will take so that we

6 know what to --

7 MR. NICE: I'm very much hoping that I'll be

8 finished by half past four.

9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Very well.

10 So shall we work until 4.30? I hope that the

11 interpreters will cooperate with us. Thank you very

12 much. I see some of them nodding their heads, and that

13 is an international sign of an affirmative answer. So

14 we shall work until half past four.

15 MR. NICE:

16 Q. Ignorance of who's running the war might work

17 for the ordinary soldier, might even work for the

18 fresh, ordinary policeman. (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)?

21 A. Well, I wouldn't really agree with you. It

22 wasn't such an important post. It wasn't then. It

23 isn't now.

24 Q. Are you really telling us that you had no

25 idea who was behind the soldiers and who was behind the

Page 19697

1 military decisions? Is that really your evidence? Is

2 it?

3 A. I know that wars are waged by soldiers, that

4 they have their commanders, and they have their

5 superiors, and so on and so forth, who is behind it

6 all, I mean I really -- I don't know really. I mean

7 how could I know?

8 Q. Because in Busovaca, after April, things were

9 pretty difficult, weren't they, because you were on the

10 losing side?

11 A. Busovaca was really in a plight at the time.

12 We were fighting for survival. It was a struggle for

13 survival.

14 Q. You already told us how people talked about

15 everything, about Kostroman and Kacuni and everything

16 else. Who did they blame for getting them into this

17 mess, please?

18 A. Well, nobody in particular. People just

19 realised it just had befallen them, and that is how

20 they took it. I don't know that they blamed anyone in

21 particular. Yes, of course, Muslims who attacked us.

22 Q. Tell us a little bit about Mr. Kordic,

23 please, because you were there as a policeman by this

24 time. He used to be based at Tisovac, didn't he?

25 A. Yes.

Page 19698

1 Q. And then he moved to the basement of the PTT

2 building for a time. Why did he do that? You were

3 there.

4 A. I do not know that it moved or when it was.

5 I know that it was in Tisovac.

6 Q. Well, did you not see him in uniform,

7 surrounded by armed men, going into the basement of the

8 PTT building?

9 A. I saw him seldom.

10 Q. Did you or did you not see him in uniform?

11 It's a very small town and you're a policeman. Did you

12 or did you not see him going into the basement of the

13 PTT building? I must tell you this: He was seen there

14 by at least two --

15 A. I did not, I did not see him enter the PTT

16 building.

17 MR. NICE: This would be in February, Your

18 Honour. The reference is the 3rd and 5th of February,

19 evidence of Jennings and Foregrave relate.

20 Q. When you saw him around Busovaca, February,

21 March, he was in uniform and he was guarded, wasn't he?

22 A. Well, I don't remember seeing him in February

23 at all because I was ill at the time, and right now I

24 simply can't remember seeing him in February.

25 Q. How about March, the month before Ahmici, to

Page 19699

1 which we will turn? How about March?

2 A. Both in February and in March, I was ill. I

3 spent most of the time at home. I did not see

4 Mr. Dario Kordic in a uniform.

5 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Witness DG,

6 without mentioning the date but during that period of

7 time, did you ever happen to see Mr. Kordic in

8 Busovaca? Yes or no. Without pinpointing the time,

9 could you give us yes or no, on the basis of your

10 memory?

11 A. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. If you mean in 1993,

12 yes, I used to see him, but not in the former half of

13 the year because most of the time I was ill. When I

14 was all right and healthy, then it was between the

15 police station and my home. I really wasn't moving

16 around.

17 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] So when is

18 it that you remember seeing him?

19 A. Well, at any rate, I did not see him often,

20 because there were no points of convergence between

21 us. So there was nothing --

22 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] But did you

23 see him or did you not see him?

24 A. Very rarely in 1993. And to communicate, I

25 had no need to, because there was nothing to bring us

Page 19700

1 together.

2 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 MR. NICE: Well, let's just pass through

4 Ahmici. Tell us what happened there as you understood

5 it and from what was said on the street. Would you

6 like to do that for us?

7 A. Well, what I heard along the grapevine was

8 that a conflict had taken place between the HVO and

9 ABiH troops, that there were some casualties during the

10 conflict, and it was only later that I heard that there

11 had also been quite a number of civilian casualties.

12 Q. Who had attacked who? Just help us.

13 A. I don't know who attacked whom.

14 Q. Was there, at any time in Busovaca, a concern

15 that the HVO had been involved in a massacre?

16 A. Any people in Busovaca condemned, censured

17 every crime committed against people, against a member

18 of any ethnicity.

19 Q. That's not an answer to the question. Was

20 there at any time in Busovaca a concern that the HVO

21 had been involved in a massacre?

22 A. Well, I don't know how to answer that

23 question. You mean what I heard in Busovaca, what kind

24 of stories went round?

25 Q. Witness DG, you've been asked by Mr. Kordic's

Page 19701

1 counsel to give accounts about what you heard about

2 Kostroman. I want you to tell the Judges what you

3 heard, and in particular whether you heard on the

4 street that the HVO had been involved in a massacre at

5 Ahmici, please.

6 A. No, I don't think I heard anything along

7 those lines. People condemned crimes, any crimes

8 committed by anyone against anyone.

9 Q. Because isn't the truth of this matter that

10 you may have known or had got to know Kordic was taking

11 an increasing military role over these months,

12 culminating in the disaster both for the dead and also

13 for you, the Croats, because you overreached yourself

14 at Ahmici? Isn't that true?

15 A. I did not hear anything like that.

16 Q. Well, let's move forward. Muslims in

17 Busovaca may have been coming in as refugees, but they

18 were being pushed out or moved out very quickly, many

19 of them to Zenica; correct?

20 A. No, it is not correct, because I don't know

21 that they were forced.

22 Q. And let's deal with the crime on the

23 streets. Present in this small town of Busovaca was

24 the limited police force of which you were a member and

25 the HVO military side; correct?

Page 19702

1 A. Both the -- there were both civilian and

2 military police in Busovaca.

3 Q. Young men of military age had to join up and

4 fight; correct?

5 A. They did not have to.

6 Q. They did.

7 A. Well, then they must have joined it of their

8 own wish. It was a struggle for survival. If you are

9 faced with a situation where your parents, brothers and

10 sisters are under threat, then of course you will go to

11 fight. Nobody needs to call you to do that.

12 Because when you have a wife and three

13 children, then you fight. You simply cannot but

14 fight. There is no other way out, and that is what

15 happened in Busovaca.

16 Q. And all the young men went to fight, pretty

17 well, correct?

18 A. I should say so, yes.

19 Q. And who was left to do the crime?

20 A. I do not know who committed crimes. If I had

21 any such knowledge, they would be prosecuted, and we

22 did prosecute all the cases that were known to us.

23 But you must know that combatants spent at

24 the front line -- sometimes they would come back home.

25 They spent a month or two in the trenches, there were

Page 19703

1 refugees arriving daily or leaving, and they all wanted

2 to get away from the area, naturally, because we did

3 not know then that we would survive, that we would not

4 fall.

5 And it is difficult now, at this point of

6 time, to say who committed crimes because we simply did

7 not have any control over the territory. We did not

8 know who was there; what kind of a record, where he was

9 moving, what he was doing, what kind of weapons, what

10 kind of equipment, explosives. You name them, the

11 place was full to the brim with all that.

12 Q. I must suggest to you that the combined

13 influence of the HVO military side and the police meant

14 that control could be exercised, if you had wanted to

15 do it, and that if there were crimes being committed,

16 maybe they were crimes committed against Muslims.

17 Would that be right? Was it crimes against Muslims?

18 A. The civilian police did all within its power

19 to prevent crimes, to record them and, if nothing else,

20 to take note of all that was going on so that sooner or

21 later, if not then, then perhaps now, such crimes could

22 be investigated.

23 Under the conditions under which we had to

24 work, and they were very difficult, I really think we

25 did our utmost.

Page 19704

1 Q. You heard about the man, Kristo, and we've

2 heard evidence of his speaking of Muslims in derogatory

3 terms, saying they should be permitted on the territory

4 but as it were with rights -- with very limited

5 rights.

6 Did he talk to you in those terms about

7 Muslims?

8 A. I did not hear that and Mr. Kristo never

9 talked to me in this way.

10 Q. Do you remember a girl called Fatima who had

11 to go to Zenica because she was very pregnant?

12 A. I don't remember.

13 Q. How many policemen were there in the police

14 station in the summer of 1993, half a dozen?

15 A. Well, I can't give you the figure, but those

16 who were involved in police business. There were never

17 more than five or six of them at any given time and, of

18 course, their number would drop down or increase

19 depending on the need for those people at the front

20 line.

21 Q. You see, I wonder if you can just help the

22 Judges with this: Kristo had to be freed to go to

23 Zenica, and Mr. Kordic was involved in all that. Do

24 you remember that?

25 A. I don't.

Page 19705

1 Q. Well, now, (redacted),

2 I've asked you once but I will ask you again: Who

3 appointed you?

4 A. I guess the municipal council. There was

5 nobody else until the end of the conflict when the

6 police administration, of course, could observe all the

7 rules of hierarchy.

8 Q. Does that mean Mr. Kordic appointed you or

9 not?

10 A. No, no.

11 Q. Very well. So may we take it that had you no

12 special relationship with Mr. Kordic? Correct me if I

13 am wrong, but that would seem to follow.

14 A. No, not any special relationship. I don't

15 really understand what you mean, what kind of --

16 Q. Well, let's go back to questions that you

17 were asked by His Honour, Judge Bennouna, just

18 briefly. Tell us again what category of documents did

19 you choose to send to Mr. Kordic?

20 A. Well, as for those documents, they had to do

21 with some general problems such as problems in the work

22 of the Red Cross. People were really protesting. They

23 were very dissatisfied, but it had to do with the food

24 shortage, and that is something like that because I

25 thought it was very important for a politician to know

Page 19706

1 because it could give rise to some discontent. And

2 information about the police work, about the

3 dissatisfaction of people.

4 If people are not satisfied with the police

5 work, then you need to submit some information about

6 your work so that they would understand you better to

7 realise that things were not all that bad as they might

8 seem; or rather to present true facts.

9 Q. Forgive me if I've got it wrong and, of

10 course, wartimes are different conditions from

11 peacetimes, but those documents might seem to have

12 some -- the quality of confidentiality about them.

13 What would you say to that?

14 A. I don't really know how confidential they

15 were because a politician could always obtain them one

16 way or the other, and now to the municipal chief you

17 submit reports on work and activities and so forth.

18 Q. It may be that senior politicians could

19 obtain documents by one means or the other if they went

20 through the appropriate channels, but that's not what

21 you're telling us.

22 You're telling us you provided certain

23 documents to Mr. Kordic of your own initiative. Why?

24 A. Not Mr. Kordic only, other politicians. For

25 instance, Zoran Maric, I also submitted such

Page 19707

1 information to him.

2 Q. Mr. Maric --

3 A. He was not the only one. (redacted)

4 (redacted), of course, I wanted people to know about my

5 work. I mean people who could affect my work in some

6 way. I mean people who were in politics, I suppose.

7 It's always been like that.

8 Q. Mr. Maric was the mayor. He had a legitimate

9 interest in being fed information from below. Please,

10 try and help us. What was Mr. Kordic's role in your

11 community that warranted his being sent unasked,

12 confidential documents, if they were confidential?

13 A. I wouldn't say that they were confidential.

14 And as for the rest, I simply thought it might be good

15 if I informed, among other people, Mr. Kordic, about

16 the work and certain problems.

17 Q. Is there any other local figure in Busovaca

18 who had more political power than Mr. Kordic that you

19 can identify so that the Judges can have the name in

20 mind?

21 A. I do not know who was that politician or any

22 politicians and what were their powers. But now that

23 people who heard a name in politics where Kordic, Zoran

24 Maric, Niko Grubesic, and what do you know -- I mean

25 people like that.

Page 19708

1 Q. When you became -- are you suggesting that

2 any of those people was superior in political power to

3 Mr. Kordic; Mr. Grubesic, for example? Are you really

4 suggesting that he wielded more power than Mr. Kordic?

5 A. No, I did not say that. I do not know which

6 one of them had more political authority, more

7 political power.

8 Q. When you got the job (redacted), that

9 would have required -- well, you had no real police

10 skills apart from six months on the job, correct?

11 A. Well, yes. I did not go through any

12 particular police training, but I knew more or less

13 what that work meant since I had worked for an

14 inspection.

15 Q. And tell us, did you get political push,

16 political patronage to get that job?

17 A. Well, at that time, it wasn't much of an

18 office, nor was it very rewarding one. So I do not

19 think that there was any patronage was needed for it.

20 Q. And what jobs have you been doing recently,

21 what jobs are you doing now? You're still in the

22 government, aren't you?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Have you, at any stage, been in private

25 enterprise yourself or have you always been a

Page 19709

1 government employee?

2 A. A government employee all the time.

3 Q. Have you had --

4 A. I was for the -- with the executive branch.

5 Q. Have you had any other source of income apart

6 from your government salaries, please?

7 A. No.

8 Q. The mosque -- and that's my last question

9 because of time -- the mosque, you suggested that it

10 had been shelled, didn't you?

11 A. No, I did not say that.

12 Q. We've heard evidence to that effect. Must

13 the witnesses saying that be wrong?

14 A. I do not know what those witnesses said, but

15 I could not say anything like that because there was a

16 report about that and I wasn't there all by myself.

17 There were firemen and lots of people around. So at

18 that time, one could not say anything like that.

19 Q. How was it set on fire then if it wasn't

20 shelled?

21 A. Well, must have been some perpetrators.

22 Q. And is it really the case in your small

23 town -- and I accept that times were difficult -- is it

24 really the case that there was no water and no machine

25 available to try and put out the fire or was that part

Page 19710

1 of a continuing policy of oppression of the Muslims,

2 please, to let it burn?

3 A. In 1993, in Busovaca, there was nothing,

4 fuel, food, ammunition, and all the rest, spare parts.

5 I mean, it is difficult to say what there was in some

6 supplies since there was nothing. And I was really

7 very happy with our fire brigade at that time. I know

8 that at a later stage a vehicle arrived from Mediapan

9 or somewhere, and I'm sure they did all they could to

10 put the fire out.

11 MR. NICE: Thank you.

12 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Sayers.

13 MR. SAYERS: No redirect, Your Honour.

14 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15 I believe we have now come to the end of this

16 testimony.

17 Witness DG, thank you for coming and giving

18 your evidence before the Chamber of the International

19 Tribunal. You are now free to go.

20 [The witness withdrew]

21 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Before we

22 part company today, there is, I believe, one more

23 witness who will be left over from your list,

24 Mr. Sayers, the list for the next week. You thought if

25 we would not be able to finish the witnesses who we had

Page 19711

1 on the list, but then next week, according to your

2 list, we shall have two witnesses, two of them

3 confidential, that is, people who have applied for

4 protective measures, if I understood well what you were

5 asking us to do. Then we shall have four witnesses

6 more, Mr. Zoran Delic, Arapovic, Santic, Avaric

7 [phoen]. Is that it?

8 MR. SAYERS: That's it precisely Your Honour,

9 and I'm glad to say that we finished the witness today

10 so there wouldn't be any carryover for the next week,

11 he won't have to stay around on the weekend, and we

12 remain dead on schedule to complete by the time

13 estimate that we have given the Trial Chamber, to

14 complete our case-in-chief, that is.

15 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Very well.

16 As you have already noted, there will be no sessions on

17 Monday, and we shall resume, I hope with President May,

18 who will, I hope, recover, on Tuesday, the 29th, at

19 half past nine.

20 This session is adjourned.

21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

22 at 4.30 p.m., to be reconvened on

23 Tuesday, the 29th day of May, 2000

24 at 9.30 a.m.