1 Tuesday, 30 2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.
5 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.
6 MR. NICE: A few administrative matters
7 before evidence is called today. First a very small
8 point, but one which I think will probably find a
9 sympathetic ear in all corners of the courtroom. We're
10 receiving a very great amount of material now to deal
11 with, and this courtroom is, of course, very difficult
12 for us to work in. At the most, I can really have one
13 of my colleagues with me. The number of files I'm able
14 to handle is limited here, and I have asked the Deputy
15 Registrar to have in mind the possible advantages for
16 us, and I suspect for everyone else, having one of the
17 larger courts whenever that's a possibility. He was
18 not unsympathetic to my application.
19 The second point concerns something that's
20 been outstanding for some time now and I've been
21 meaning to mention, and it's judicial notice in other
22 cases. I think the matter has now been completely
23 briefed on other side, but we would respectfully invite
24 you to postpone dealing with that until a later stage,
25 for several reasons.
1 First, you will probably recall that when I
2 made the application to put in these matters just
3 before the close of our case, I said it was necessary
4 to do so because of the uncertain future of other
5 cases, their appeals and determinations in them, and so
6 on, and also because of uncertainty at that stage about
7 the Blaskic decision, which was only in French and
8 therefore not fully available to some of us, and so
10 Well, now we would prefer, and would
11 respectfully suggest it would be appropriate, to defer
12 arguing out judicial findings in other cases until the
13 closing state of this trial, by which stage the
14 progress of other appeals will be known, and it will be
15 known by us to what extent we wish to rely on judicial
16 findings in other cases. It may be that we would
17 prefer not to rely on judicial findings in other cases,
18 either at all or substantially. But far better left
19 till the end and then argued out as part of the closing
20 arguments in our case, in our respectful submission.
21 JUDGE MAY: Well, that's a matter we'll take
22 into consideration.
23 MR. NICE: I have now served, and I hope the
24 Chamber's has had a chance to read, the report on the
25 audiotape handling of evidence, and perhaps we can deal
1 with any outstanding issues in relation to that at an
2 early and convenient moment.
3 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
4 MR. NICE: When we do -- there's one other
5 thing I want to say in relation to documents generally,
6 but it's probably better that I say it at that stage so
7 that it's all of a piece, but I'd rather say what I
8 have to say about documents before the Chamber makes
9 any order in relation to original materials.
10 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
11 MR. NICE: Affidavits.
12 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, I understand the
13 position is that last week's affidavits were held over.
14 MR. NICE: That's right.
15 JUDGE MAY: We'll find a convenient moment in
16 the next two days to deal with them. I should say that
17 I shall not be here on Thursday and Friday because of
18 Tribunal business in London, and unless anybody has any
19 objection, Judge Bennouna and Judge Robinson will be
20 conducting the hearings.
21 MR. NICE: Of course we have no objections.
22 Thursday and Friday is currently timetabled for what is
23 an important witness on both sides, but then he is a
24 witness who, once his evidence is in two days, assuming
25 that the timetable works, will be evidence of a piece,
1 and perhaps the more easy for Your Honour to catch up
2 with where you've got several witnesses. I don't know.
3 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes.
4 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,
5 Your Honour. Our next witness is ready. I believe
6 that the Chamber has ruled in regard of his protective
7 measures, and I think that we are agreed that he will
8 testify in closed session, and I believe he can be
9 called now. Thank you.
10 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
11 [Closed session]
12 Pages 19716 – 19754 redacted – (closed session)
11 Pages 19755 – 19786 redacted – (closed session)
23 [Open session]
24 JUDGE MAY: Is there anything you want to ask
25 to add to the affidavit, Mr. Sayers?
1 MR. SAYERS: Frankly, Your Honour, I had
2 anticipated asking Mr. Santic what his name was
3 confirming that everything in the affidavit was true
4 and then sitting down.
5 JUDGE MAY: Very well. You'll obviously get
6 through this witness. You've got another one this
8 MR. SAYERS: We have two others lined up,
9 Your Honour, and then there are two others for the rest
10 of the week. Then we had intended to close up the
11 Busovaca evidence this week and then try to squeeze in
12 the two affidavit witnesses from whom the Court
13 indicated it wished to hear.
14 JUDGE MAY: We shall, in fact, take slightly
15 longer than usual adjournment at lunch and then we'll
16 sit again at 2.40.
17 [The witness entered court]
18 JUDGE MAY: Yes, let the witness take the
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly
21 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
22 and nothing but the truth.
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 WITNESS: MARIO SANTIC
25 Examined by Mr. Sayers:
1 Q. Thank you, Mr. President, and good afternoon,
2 sir. Would you simply tell the Court your name?
3 A. Mario Santic.
4 Q. Mr. Santic, you signed an affidavit that was
5 submitted to the Court for use in this case on May 8th,
6 2000; is that correct?
7 A. It is.
8 Q. Did you read the affidavit carefully before
9 you signed it?
10 A. I did.
11 Q. Is everything in that affidavit correct to
12 the best of your knowledge?
13 A. It is. Yes.
14 Q. [Microphone not activated] -- contained in
15 that affidavit today?
16 A. I do.
17 MR. SAYERS: Thank you, Your Honours. No
18 further questions.
19 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, any questions.
20 MR. KOVACIC: No, sir, I will not have any
21 questions. Thank you.
22 Cross-examined by Mr. Scott:
23 Q. May it please the Court.
24 Witness, you have a nickname by the name of
25 -- and I'm not going to try to pronounce it -- forgive
1 me, by Svecenik.
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. Is that correct?
4 A. It is.
5 Q. And can you tell us, sir, when did you first
6 meet with anyone representing Mr. Kordic either an
7 investigator or a lawyer or anyone else who understood
8 then or later learned was working for or on behalf of
9 Mr. Kordic, please?
10 A. A few months ago. I can't remember the date
11 exactly, but that's about it. When Mr. Mitko,
12 something like that came, and before that, I talked to
13 Mr. Mitko, and we drew up that statement in Vitez. We
14 handed it over to the court, had it certified, and
15 that's it.
16 Q. Did you understand that these gentlemen
17 you've just named, these were investigators working on
18 behalf of the Defence team or who did you understand
19 them to be?
20 A. Quite so. Investigators or people
22 Q. And did you review any documents, sir, in
23 either preparing to sign the affidavit that was put
24 before you or in preparing to testify today? Did you
25 review any sort of materials?
1 A. Excuse me, could you repeat it slower,
3 Q. Certainly. In either preparing your
4 affidavit, sir, or preparing to testify in court today,
5 did you review any documents or materials?
6 A. No, only talking.
7 Q. All right. So no one showed you any
8 documents or put any documents in front of you?
9 A. We only talked about it.
10 Q. Very well.
11 A. And the product of that was my affidavit, my
13 Q. Did you travel anywhere, sir, in connection
14 with preparing your affidavit or in preparing to come
15 here other than Vitez or, of course, The Hague?
16 A. Only this statement that I signed in Vitez
17 and have certified in the court in Vitez.
18 Q. And when is the last time, sir, that you saw
19 or spoke with the man named Josip Buha, B-u-h-a?
20 A. Because Buha worked for a demining company,
21 it could have been two or three months ago, more or
23 Q. Have you talked to Mr. Buha about your
24 affidavit or about your testimony today?
25 A. No, not then. I'm referring to about two or
1 three months ago. No, nothing, it was just in passing,
2 "Hi, hi," and that was that. That was two or three
3 months ago.
4 Q. And you've not talked to him other than this
5 one occasion you just mentioned to the Court; is that
7 A. It is, it is.
8 Q. Did anyone tell you what Mr. Buha had
9 testified to in court?
10 A. No, no.
11 Q. All right. Moving on sir, you state in your
12 affidavit that you were a member of the Vitezovi
13 Special Unit from approximately the 29th of September,
14 1992 to the 18th of January 1994; is that correct,
16 A. It is.
17 Q. And before that, commencing in approximately
18 December of 1991, you were a member of something called
19 HOS in Vitez, were you not?
20 A. Yes.
21 MR. SCOTT: If I can have the usher's
22 assistance, please. There should be copies there for
23 both the Court and counsel and the witness, I hope.
24 For the record, Your Honour, I've just
25 tendered to the usher as Exhibit Z1476.3.
1 MR. SAYERS: Your Honour, there appears to be
2 no translation for this.
3 MR. SCOTT: I was about to address that.
4 MR. SAYERS: And, in fact, when we tried to
5 introduce an exhibit last week to which there was no
6 translation, a very vigorous objection was made and we
7 agreed to it.
8 JUDGE MAY: What's the position here, Mr.
10 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I was about to
11 address that before Mr. Sayers rose.
12 I will tell the Court that there is not only
13 this exhibit but about five or six other exhibits, but
14 because they only came into the OTP's possession
15 literally in the past -- well, I think Friday, I think
16 last Friday evening, we have no way of -- some of
17 these -- with the exception of this one, excuse me, but
18 we've had no way of translating these documents up to
19 the present time.
20 JUDGE MAY: Well, you know what the usual
21 rule is that only translated documents can be admitted.
22 MR. SCOTT: I can only give the explanation
23 to the Court that I have. I understand the Court's
24 concern about that.
25 If I can just simply ask --
1 [Trial Chamber confers]
2 MR. SCOTT: I think in this particular
3 instance, Your Honour -- sorry.
4 JUDGE MAY: Well, on this occasion, you can
5 put the matter to the witness. The document can be put
6 on the ELMO and we'll hear a translation of the
7 relevant part.
8 You mention other documents. I trust that
9 none of them are long if there are.
10 MR. SCOTT: No, Your Honour, and there's only
11 very short passages in each one that literally a couple
12 of lines that I think will be the most pertinent to the
13 Court and we can handle them the same way.
14 JUDGE MAY: We'll see how this goes.
15 MR. SAYERS: If I may be heard Your Honour
16 just very one very brief point. The point was made by
17 Mr. Nice last week that he couldn't be in a position to
18 cross-examine because he wasn't able to read the
19 document, and I agreed with that and we agreed to
20 not -- not to pose questions upon it we find ourselves
21 in the same position.
22 JUDGE MAY: I can't help but noticing you
23 could possibly ask Mr. Naumovski to help you with it.
24 But we'll see how it goes. Clearly as a matter of
25 principle, we do not allow documents which are not
2 These appear to be some membership documents;
3 is that right?
4 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour, they are just
5 further documents and, for the record, purposes the
6 particular dates that indicate the witness' membership
7 in these two units which is admitted in general, but
8 it's simply documents in detail in both those items.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Scott and Mr. Sayers, I
11 think the most practical solution is to have the
12 document put on the ELMO. If you find that your
13 re-examination is in any way prejudiced by the lack of
14 translation, you can raise that with us. But in the
15 meantime, I think we'll put it on the ELMO.
16 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Q. Witness, if you can look -- I think it should
18 be on your screen. I hope, or with the usher's
19 assistance, these are -- this first page of Exhibit
20 Z1476.3 is a record or at least documentation of your
21 membership, in this particular instance, mentioning
23 In the second line of the form, essentially a
24 form that's been filled in over the typed name of Darko
25 Kraljevic, the commanding officer of the Vitezovi, and
1 over the signature of Dragan Vinac. Are those the --
2 if you can look at that sir and confirm are those the
3 dates of your membership in either HOS and/or the
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. All right. Now, I think, likewise, if you
7 can look at the third page, if the usher can direct you
8 to the third page, I think we can cover this very
9 quickly. Again, a reference to your membership in the
10 Vitezovi from approximately the 10th of September, 1992
11 until the 18th of January, 1994. Is that correct, sir?
12 A. It is.
13 Q. And finally, a document that appears to then
14 capture both parts of this information on one document,
15 indicating your membership in both HOS, as early as
16 December 1991, and then the Vitezovi. Is that correct,
18 A. It is.
19 Q. How old were you, Witness, when you joined
20 the HOS, by the way?
21 A. Eighteen.
22 Q. When you joined -- or were transferred from
23 HOS to the Vitezovi Special Unit, you were issued
24 camouflage uniforms; is that correct?
25 A. Just a moment. Could you repeat it slowly,
2 Q. Sure. When you moved from HOS to the
3 Vitezovi Special Purpose Unit, you were issued a
4 camouflage uniform; is that correct?
5 A. It is.
6 Q. But when you were in the HOS, you also had
7 worn and had a black uniform; isn't that correct, sir?
8 A. Both black and camouflage.
9 Q. And in fact, someone you knew as Edim Catic
10 once wore your black uniform, didn't he?
11 A. I didn't get the name of the gentleman that
12 you mentioned.
13 Q. I'll spell it, sir, in case I pronounced it
14 wrong. E-d-i-m C-a-t-i-c.
15 A. I don't know anyone by that name.
16 Q. Can you tell the Court, sir, what determined
17 on any given day whether you wore the camouflage
18 uniform or the black uniform?
19 A. The black was mostly for ceremonies and
20 parades, and the camouflage was used for training and
21 other things.
22 Q. And which camouflage uniform were you wearing
23 in Ahmici on the 16th of April, 1993?
24 JUDGE MAY: The witness should be asked the
25 question fairly. The first question is whether he was
1 in Ahmici on that day.
2 MR. SCOTT: Very well, Your Honour.
3 Q. Witness you heard the Court's question. Were
4 you in Ahmici on the 16th of April, 1993?
5 A. No.
6 Q. All right. We'll come back to that.
7 Darko Kraljevic was the commanding officer of
8 the Vitezovi and had his headquarters at the Dubravica
9 school; is that correct, sir?
10 A. It is.
11 Q. And I realise the numbers may have varied
12 over time, but can you help us, sir, by telling the
13 Court, on average, or in general, how many soldiers or
14 members made up the Vitezovi Special Purpose Unit?
15 A. About 120.
16 Q. And apart from Mr. Kraljevic, who was the
17 overall commanding officer, who were the other senior
18 officers of that unit in 1993?
19 A. Plavcic and Sapina and Vinac.
20 Q. And who was your immediate commanding
21 officer, sir, your superior, presumably between you and
22 Mr. Kraljevic?
23 A. Zoran Bilic.
24 Q. Now, it's true, sir, is it not, that one of
25 the accused here, Mr. Mario Cerkez, and Darko Kraljevic
1 were very good friends, weren't they?
2 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour --
3 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
4 MR. KOVACIC: I think this is entirely out of
5 a direct examination and affidavit statement. He was
6 not asked about that.
7 JUDGE MAY: That's true.
8 MR. SCOTT: It is true, Your Honour,
9 technically, but if the witness comes, there's been
10 many questions in the course of trial about the
11 Vitezovi, its make-up, its chain of command, and we
12 have a member of the Vitezovi here. We think that it's
13 not fair to shield the Court from that information that
14 this witness is in a position to give the Court.
15 JUDGE MAY: I think we've already had
16 evidence about this. I seem to remember evidence on
17 this particular point.
18 MR. KOVACIC: Could I have just one sentence?
19 JUDGE MAY: The relationship between
20 Mr. Kraljevic and Mr. Cerkez was discussed, at least by
21 one witness, at some length.
22 MR. SCOTT: I'm obviously in the Court's
23 hands. If the Court thinks that that's been firmly
24 established to its satisfaction, I can only take the
25 Court's guidance.
1 JUDGE MAY: I don't think we need to pursue
2 it any further. It's now 1.00, in any event. We'll
3 adjourn till 2.40.
4 Mr. Santic, you are giving evidence. During
5 the adjournment, don't speak to anybody about your
6 evidence and don't let anybody speak to you about it.
7 That does include the members of the Defence team.
8 Don't speak to anybody about it until it's over. Would
9 you be back, please, at 2.40 p.m. We'll adjourn.
10 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.01 p.m.
2 --- On resuming at 2.43 p.m.
3 MR. SCOTT: Just one moment, Your Honour, I'm
5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Scott, we considered the last
6 point that was made. We think it right that you should
7 be restricted, according to the rule, to matters which
8 arise from the affidavit and matters relating to
9 credibility. If there are any other matters which are
10 relevant, of course it's open to you to address us on
11 it, but we wouldn't encourage you to adopt a roving
12 commission through the HOS Vitezovi.
13 MR. SCOTT: No, Your Honour, I appreciate the
14 Court's guidance on that.
15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to the counsel,
17 MR. SCOTT: I appreciate the Court's
18 guidance, Mr. President.
19 Let me be very transparent with both you and
20 the Defence on what could be the next series of
21 questions or, for the Court's direction, may not be.
22 There are -- what I propose to do in my
23 outline next with this witness asked about the
24 relationship between Mr. Cerkez and Mr. Kraljevic is
25 put to the witness the question that, or the
1 proposition that, the Vitezovi Special Purposes Unit
2 acted in very close concert, on many occasions, with
3 the Vitez Brigade.
4 I have a number, I have five documents that
5 have only recently come into the Prosecutor's
6 possession which show exactly that, show -- orders
7 signed by Mario Cerkez showing close coordination and,
8 in fact, in some instances, Mr. Cerkez arranging the
9 disposition, the battle disposition of Vitezovi forces
10 and ask this witness, since he was a member of the
11 Vitezovi, what does he know about that. Was he
12 involved in any action together in joint actions with
13 the Vitez Brigade et cetera.
14 JUDGE MAY: Speaking for myself, I would have
15 it thought it may be more appropriate to deal with that
16 by way of rebuttal evidence if it's matters that may
17 recently have come to light rather than do it through
18 Defence witnesses.
19 MR. SCOTT: I'll take the Court's guidance.
20 Your Honour, perhaps the Court will allow one
21 question on this maybe we can simply ask one question
22 and move on if the Court will allow me.
23 Q. Mr. Santic, you are a member of the Special
24 Purpose Unit, the Vitezovi. Can you tell the Court, to
25 your knowledge, did the Vitezovi Special Purpose Unit
1 often act in close coordination with the Vitez Brigade?
2 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, if I may object on
3 the same basis. This was not the subject of the
4 affidavit. It is entirely outside the scope.
5 JUDGE MAY: Well, it may be a question which
6 we will allow, one question on the topic. Yes.
7 MR. SCOTT:
8 Q. Will you answer the question, Mr. Santic?
9 A. If you could just repeat it because there was
10 a lengthy exchange in between.
11 Q. Certainly. Mr. Santic, isn't it true that on
12 many occasions, throughout 1993, the Vitezovi Special
13 Purposes Unit acted in close coordination with the
14 Vitez Brigade?
15 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, I'm sorry for
16 interrupt, but could I at least ask the Prosecution to
17 lay a base for the question.
18 JUDGE MAY: He can ask the witness who was a
19 member of the Vitezovi whether it was -- acted in
20 cooperation with the Vitez Brigade. There doesn't need
21 to be a base for the examination and I have already
23 Yes, Mr. Santic, what is the answer, please?
24 A. We received orders strictly from our
25 commanders and we did all -- everything that concerned
1 the defence on our own.
2 MR. SCOTT:
3 Q. Well, Mr. Santic, that doesn't answer my
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can you just --
6 MR. SCOTT: Yes, I'm sorry.
7 [Trial Chamber confers]
8 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, I think we've taken
9 the matter as far as it can be.
10 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 Q. Mr. Santic, you say in your affidavit that
12 you are sure that Mr. Kordic was not at the Dubravica
13 barracks on the 15th of April 1993. And you say --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Yes. And you say in paragraph seven, you
16 said you were confident that you would have known if
17 someone important would have come to the barracks and
18 at some point you said, "It would be a special event
19 for us if eminent persons had ever come to our
20 barracks." Correct?
21 A. That is correct. When some other military or
22 some other leader would come, everybody would know
23 because people on -- who were on guard would spread the
24 word and I, myself, was part of the guard.
25 And I was on duty that day, and I would have
1 and should have known if somebody was coming to the
3 Q. Well, sir, you're saying, you're suggesting
4 then that if someone as eminent as Mr. Kordic would
5 have come to the barracks, you would have remembered
6 that; is that true?
7 A. Yes. Regardless of who came, I would have
8 remembered, especially if I was on the guard duty.
9 Q. And were you on guard duty on the 16th of
10 April -- or the 15th of April, 1993?
11 A. Yes. We had two-hour shifts, and in between
12 we relaxed and engaged in other activities.
13 Q. And do you recall which shift you had that
15 A. I don't recall exactly, but there was one in
16 the evening hours, but I don't know exactly what time
17 it was.
18 Q. And who did you understand Mr. Kordic to be
19 in April 1993, sir?
20 A. A political figure, because watching TV and
21 listening to the radio, I heard some of his political
22 speeches and I considered him a political figure.
23 That's it.
24 Q. Did you consider him one of the principal
25 leaders of the Bosnian Croat people in Central Bosnia?
1 A. I wasn't involved in that very much. I was a
2 soldier and I wasn't all that interested in politics.
3 Q. Well, sir, you say in your affidavit, you
4 said you would have been particularly aware if someone
5 like Mr. Kordic had come, because it would have been a
6 special event if eminent persons had visited your
7 barracks. You would have considered Mr. Kordic an
8 eminent person, wouldn't you?
9 A. Any political figure, any person -- that's
10 what I was talking about -- people would know about
11 him. Especially people like Mr. Kordic, who was a
12 political official, we would have known that he was
13 here, because there's escorts, there's all that.
14 Q. Did you know, sir, how Mr. Anto Breljas came
15 to join the Vitezovi unit?
16 A. As regards Anto Breljas, I heard about him on
17 that morning of the 16th, sometime in the afternoon,
18 when one of the logistics persons brought ammunition
19 and some equipment, and we heard that one of our own
20 was captured. And after that, when -- after I was
21 wounded, I had an opportunity to see Anto Breljas.
22 Q. Well, let me repeat my question. Perhaps you
23 didn't understand. Do you know how it was that
24 Mr. Breljas came to join the Vitezovi unit?
25 A. Mr. Breljas was captured, arrested, by the
1 PPN Vitezovi at the gas station and brought to the
2 barracks, according to what people knew at the time.
3 And then he was under some kind of house arrest and
4 then joined a logistics. I don't know whether Darko
5 Kraljevic liked him or something, but he assigned him
6 to the logistics. And this is where I found him in
7 early May, with the logistics department.
8 Q. All right, sir. Let's take that in some
9 smaller pieces. But first off, let me be clear. The
10 arrest, did this have something to do with a gasoline
11 station in the Vitez area? Is that where you say he
12 was arrested?
13 A. The soldiers who captured him, according to
14 what they told later when we talked about this, he was
15 moving in the middle of the road with a briefcase, and
16 the soldiers there considered him as a potential enemy
17 and they fired at him and then captured him.
18 Q. Were you involved in this action at the
19 gasoline station where Mr. Breljas, according to you,
20 was arrested?
21 A. No. I was at Mlakici. One group was at the
22 church, the other one at Mlakici, but that's all in one
23 and the same year.
24 Q. Sir, did you ever hear, were you ever
25 informed, that it was the accused, Dario Kordic, that
1 had sent Mr. Breljas to Darko Kraljevic with
2 instructions that he be allowed to join the Vitezovi?
3 A. I don't know about that. I have no
4 information in that regard. Because Mr. Darko
5 Kraljevic was exclusively assigning people to certain
6 assignments or tasks in Vitezovi. Nobody else could
7 appoint them, assign them, to be leaders of groups, of
8 squads, of any other part of the unit.
9 Q. So your testimony is, sir, that only
10 Mr. Kraljevic could have assigned -- could have
11 accepted, if you will, Mr. Breljas into the unit and
12 made assignments to him; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you don't know one way or the other, and
15 you can't tell this Court one way or the other, whether
16 in fact Mr. Breljas first went to Darko Kraljevic on
17 the instructions of Dario Kordic?
18 A. Can you repeat, please?
19 Q. Sir, you don't know one way or the other, and
20 you cannot tell this Court one way or the other,
21 whether in fact Mr. Breljas first went to Darko
22 Kraljevic on the instructions of Dario Kordic?
23 A. He couldn't go to Darko Kraljevic first,
24 because first he was arrested and then monitored for a
25 while. Because at first, after the attack by the
1 Muslims, he couldn't have, because if he was arrested
2 on the 16th, all these subordinate commanders were at
3 the front line.
4 Q. Sir, you indicate you're confident that
5 Mr. Kordic wasn't at the Dubravica school on the 15th
6 of April. Where were you -- can you tell the Court
7 where you were on the 13th and 14th of April?
8 A. In the barracks.
9 Q. At all times through those days; is that
11 A. I was at home on the 11th, and then I came
12 back to the barracks and I spent that whole time in the
13 barracks performing various duties: guard training and
14 so on.
15 Q. And during that time period, the 13th and
16 14th of April, were you at all times with Darko
18 A. I was at the barracks, because as a soldier,
19 there was a command and we were engaged in basic
20 things: training of -- physical training and so on.
21 Q. Mr. Santic, are you telling this Court that
22 you know all the people who Mr. Kraljevic met with on
23 the 13th, 14th, and 15th of April, 1993?
24 A. I at least would have seen them arriving,
25 because I was in the barracks. I would have known who
1 entered, or I would have been informed. Because of the
2 guard duties and everything else, I would have known;
3 at least I would have been told.
4 Q. And Mr. Kraljevic himself never left the
5 barracks during those three days, the 13th, 14th, and
6 15th of April?
7 A. From what I could see, because I would see
8 him on a couple of occasions, he had his superiors, his
9 commanders, so I could not see when he was not there.
10 I could see him when he was in the barracks, but not
11 when he left, because I had my duties. I couldn't
12 really know, be aware of the presence of my commander
13 at any given moment.
14 Q. All right. Now, sir, moving to the 16th of
15 April, can you tell the Court where you were that day?
16 A. On the 16th, in Mlakici. That morning,
17 around 5.00 -- it was 5.00 or half past 5.00, we were
18 awakened by the officer on duty and detonations around
19 the barracks. The alarm went on and we were told that
20 we had been attacked. Naturally, we were all shocked,
21 because that evening we had some leisure activities and
22 we were very tired because we were playing football and
23 basketball and netball. We were in the gym and we
24 finished at very late in the evening, sometime after
1 Q. Are you talking about the 15th now?
2 A. Quite so. I'm talking about the 15th and the
3 16th in the morning.
4 Q. And you said you were -- you woke up
5 approximately around 5.00 a.m. and then how soon after
6 5.00 a.m. did you leave the barracks and go into the
8 A. Roughly until we got the equipment and
9 whatever we could do it, because of the detonation and
10 the gunfire shocked us all and confused us. We didn't
11 really know what was going on so that in about half an
12 hour, perhaps an hour, something like that.
13 Q. So by approximately somewhere between 6.00 or
14 6.30 that morning, you were away in the field from the
15 barracks for the rest of the day; is that correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So sir, you don't know who Mr. Kraljevic met
18 during the 16th of April, do you?
19 A. I repeat, Kraljevic, Plavcic, Sapina and
20 Vinac were all on positions, and they were with us on
21 the front lines, the church, Mlakici towards Krcevine
22 we were all deployed. A couple of people stayed behind
23 to guard the equipment.
24 Q. Were you deployed with Mr. Kraljevic on the
25 16th of April?
1 A. With Mr. Sapina.
2 Q. And where was Mr. Kraljevic deployed,
3 according to you, on that day?
4 A. Plavcic and Kraljevic, by church from the
5 information that I had from my superior.
6 Q. Who was your superior?
7 A. Zoran Bilic.
8 Q. And where is the church that you're telling
9 us about now?
10 A. How do you mean, geographically or the
11 position. I don't understand.
12 Q. Geographically, what village, town, where is
13 it in relation to Vitez, for instance?
14 A. Some people call it Stari Vitez.
15 Q. Were you, Mr. Santic, at any time between the
16 13th and the 17th of April, 1993, with someone named
17 Miroslav Bralo sometimes also called Cico or Cicko?
18 A. I don't know the man.
19 Q. All right. Now, sir, you've said in your
20 affidavit that you were wounded on the 17th of April;
21 is that correct?
22 A. It is, in the morning.
23 Q. And you were recovering then for
24 approximately the next month according to paragraph
25 nine of your affidavit; is that correct sir?
1 A. It is.
2 Q. And so when do you recall approximately
3 returning, if you will, to active duty or returning to
4 your unit?
5 A. Early May came, I helped as much as I could
6 because I was like a wounded man. So some time I spent
7 time in the barracks helping other wounded, the
8 families of the wounded, and those killed. I helped by
9 distributing food or cigarettes and things of the sort
10 and that is how I spent the time until I recovered,
11 until my wounds healed.
12 Q. And also when you say in paragraph nine when
13 you returned, as you've just told us, some time you say
14 in early May, you saw that, "Anto Breljas was helping
15 Josip Buha our logistics officer." Is that correct?
16 A. He helped, yes. I didn't really know what he
17 was doing for him, but he was distributing food and
18 other things of the sort for the troops.
19 Q. And how long do you say that Mr. Breljas
20 continued in that role, that is, assisting as a
21 logistics officer?
22 A. I don't know exactly. I know later on and
23 I -- this is now very roughly because I cannot recall
24 those dates, but I think it was May or late May early
25 June that we learned that as an IPD, he was appointed
1 and that is because the commander, the superiors had
2 told us so.
3 Q. Who did you learn that from? You said that
4 you learned from your superiors. Do you recall who
5 told you that Mr. Breljas had been named the IPD
6 officer for the Vitezovi unit?
7 A. My superior, Zoran Bilic.
8 Q. So it's your testimony, sir, that sometime in
9 late May or early June, by that time, Mr. Breljas was
10 at that point, he was named the IPD officer; is that
12 A. About that, I gave you a month because I do
13 not remember exactly. At that time, we didn't -- he
14 was there for logistics out of the blue, and Mr. Bilic
15 told me that he had been appointed for IPD but we
16 attached no particular significance to that gentleman.
17 We had other problems, attacks and the like,
18 so that we attached more attention to other things.
19 MR. SCOTT: If the witness could please be
20 shown Exhibit Z1417.1, and that can be distributed as
21 well, please or put on the ELMO.
22 I think, according to the procedure we agreed
23 this morning, that with Judge Robinson's suggestion if
24 we could put that on the overhead on the ELMO and I can
25 point you to the particular passage, please.
1 Your Honour what I propose doing, if I could,
2 with the Court's permission, if I could ask the
3 translation help, if the translation could simply read
4 as the witness is reviewing the document the first two
5 paragraphs of this order or document, in any event,
6 Exhibit 1417.1 and then I can put a couple of questions
7 to the witness.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Somebody will have to read
9 it in our language for us.
10 MR. SCOTT: I hoped that it had been provided
11 to the booth earlier, but if the witness can then read
12 it, Your Honour, the first two paragraphs.
13 Q. Mr. Santic, can you help us, please, when
14 directing you to this document that's been put in front
15 of you, starting with the first line, if you could read
16 through what appears to be the first two paragraphs of
17 this document, and if you can do so, sir, slowly enough
18 to allow for translation, that would be most helpful.
19 A. "The certificate whereby it is confirmed by
20 the political administration of the Ministry of Defence
21 of the Croat Republic Herceg-Bosna that Lieutenant Anto
22 Breljas performed the duties of the political officer
23 in the unit PPN Vitezovi from the 20th of April, 1993
24 to 17th of January, 1993 when the unit ceased to
1 Q. The second date, sir, can I suggest it's 1994
2 and not 1993 or perhaps in translation.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's mistake,
5 Q. Could you read the next sentence as well,
6 please, starting with "Lieutenant Breljas".
7 A. "Lieutenant Anto Breljas performed the duties
8 of the political officer in the PPN Vitezovi
10 Q. Now, sir, this is a document from someone
11 named Ignac Kostroman on -- from something called the
12 political administration of the Ministry of Defence,
13 were you familiar with that body?
14 A. Just a moment. You're asking me?
15 Q. Yes, I am.
16 A. I knew about this political body.
17 Q. What was it?
18 A. I knew about it but, being a soldier, I
19 really didn't want to waste my time on it because I was
20 interested in the orders of my superior and the rest --
21 Q. Sir, this indicates, before we go on, this
22 indicates, does it not, that instead of late May or
23 early June of 1993, in fact, Mr. Breljas had become the
24 IPD officer of the Vitezovi Special Purposes Unit at
25 least by the 20th of April. Isn't that correct, sir?
1 A. Perhaps how they had him on, they had him on,
2 is false, but I claimed that he wasn't that as it says
3 here on the 20th of April.
4 Q. Sir, you knew at the time, did you not, that
5 Mr. Kostroman, Ignac Kostroman was a close associate of
6 Mr. Kordic's and another important political figure in
7 Central Bosnia, didn't you?
8 A. I did not because I did not want to tire
9 myself with such things. Politics is politics; is of
10 no interest to me.
11 Q. You say it's of no interest of you but, in
12 fact, Mr. Breljas, by this document, was the political
13 officer in the Vitezovi isn't that correct? You had no
14 interaction with Mr. Breljas as the political officer
15 of the unit?
16 A. Only, I'm telling you, only the beginning of
17 January was when I met Mr. Anto Breljas, but the duties
18 that he had at that time had to do with logistics
19 strictly, no political activities as an IPD.
20 Q. We'll move on. Sir, before we finish this
21 general area, did you ever have any dealings in Central
22 Bosnia with a man named Miso Mijac?
23 A. I don't know a man of that name.
24 Q. And did you ever have any interaction with
25 another Bosnian Croat armed force in Central Bosnia
1 called the Scorpions?
2 A. No.
3 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I just have a couple
4 of more questions, but it's necessary --- I'd ask the
5 Court if we could -- not closed session, but if we
6 could go into private session, because there are some
7 names that will be mentioned, Your Honour.
8 [Private session]
11 pages 19823-19827 redacted. Private session
12 [Closed session]
12 Pages 19829 – 19849 redacted – (Closed session)
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
23 at 4.05 p.m., to be reconvened on
24 Wednesday the 31st day of May, 2000,
25 at 9.30 a.m.