1 Thursday, 1
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.
6 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] I don't
7 think I need to remind you what Judge Richard May was
8 already mentioned, who, for professional reasons which
9 have to do with the work of the Tribunal, will not be
10 here today. My colleague, Judge Robinson, and myself
11 will be sitting today.
12 I think there are no objections, so
13 Ms. Somers, you can proceed.
14 MS. SOMERS: There was no English
15 translation, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE BENNOUNA: There was no English?
17 THE REGISTRAR: Is there a problem with the
18 interpreters in the English booth?
19 THE INTERPRETER: No. One, two, three. I
20 think the channels got mixed up. Sorry.
21 JUDGE BENNOUNA: Okay. Ms. Somers, please.
22 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honours. Of
23 course, just for the record, there's absolutely no
25 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Are you now
1 getting the interpretation into English?
2 MS. SOMERS: Yes.
3 JUDGE BENNOUNA: Thank you. You can
5 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour.
6 WITNESS: ZORAN BILIC [Resumed]
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 Cross-examined by Ms. Somers: [Cont'd]
9 Q. Mr. Bilic, yesterday we left off with my
10 indicating that I would, as per plan, work backward a
11 little bit from 1993 to the events in 1992.
12 I would like to ask you a little bit, though,
13 if you can tell me, about your role, as you had
14 indicated, as a substitute for the priest. What were
15 the circumstances under which you had to assume the
16 role of, as it were, substitute priest for the Serbian
17 Orthodox community?
18 A. The priest who worked in Busovaca had
19 problems because he had to service two parishes. He
20 was also attacked in Zenica so he left that area. He
21 escaped to Serbia where he was born, and he continued
22 to work there. The priest who worked in Zenica
23 authorised me to exercise the duties of a priest
25 Q. What duties did you, in fact, exercise? Were
1 they religious duties or communal duties in relation to
2 the members of the Serb community and, let's say, the
3 central government, or what?
4 A. These were only religious duties.
5 Q. The Serbian Orthodox Church was a focal
6 point, was it not, of the community, the Serbian
8 A. The premises of -- the facilities of the
9 Serbian Orthodox Church were only used by the Dobrotvor
11 Q. Which had a function of distribution of
12 humanitarian aid, as you indicated yesterday; that is
14 A. Yes, this is where the distribution of
15 humanitarian aid was done.
16 Q. Which, to a great measure, depended on the
17 relationships between the conflicting parties and the
18 International Community; is that correct?
19 A. We didn't feel that because it had been --
20 these things were organised. We had no conflicts with
21 either side. We received our rations regularly.
22 Q. Yes. The receipt of those rations, however,
23 depended on their getting through, which was -- the
24 getting through aspect is what I'm trying to
25 emphasise. That depended on the International
1 Community, did it not, the ability to pass by roads and
2 go from territory to territory. Is that correct?
3 A. Yes, of course.
4 Q. I would like to ask a little bit about the
5 relationships between and among the three ethnic
6 groups, the Muslims, the Croats, and the Serbs, up to
7 mid-1992, let's say up to about the 10th of May, 1992.
8 The first part of the question is directed
9 toward how the war that was going on between Serbia and
10 Croatia affected the communities, and then if you could
11 maybe move into how the war which then moved into the
12 Mostar area between the Serbs and the non-Serb
13 residents of Mostar affected the relationships. Please
14 tell us a bit about that.
15 A. I have nothing to say about that. I never
16 engaged in politics and I wasn't involved in any of
18 MR. SAYERS: The question involves Mostar. I
19 believe the city of Mostar, Your Honour, was not
20 addressed at --
21 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Could you
22 please repeat that because we were not getting the
24 MR. SAYERS: Sorry. I was a little bit late
25 leaping to my feet. It appears that this question
1 addresses circumstances in Mostar, and that's something
2 that certainly was not covered at any point, even
3 inferentially, in direct examination and therefore is
4 completely outside the scope of the direct examination,
5 and I objected for that reason. It's also irrelevant.
6 MS. SOMERS: May I respond, Your Honours?
7 Will the Court give me permission to respond as to why
8 I'm asking this question?
9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Yes,
10 Ms. Somers.
11 MS. SOMERS: Thank you.
12 Your Honour, all the relationships, as we
13 have consistently tried to show, between and among
14 ethnic groups are not dependent solely on what is
15 occurring simply in Central Bosnia. This indictment is
16 premised upon the concept of widespread and
17 systematic. The relationships which are described and
18 the activities which are described in the case in
19 chief --
20 JUDGE BENNOUNA: Could you move on rather
21 rapidly. You have just asked a question which is very
23 MS. SOMERS: There was no English, Your
25 JUDGE BENNOUNA: No English? Okay. I'll try
1 to speak in English at this time.
2 Can you please ask a precise question,
3 because your question was very long. About the ethnic
4 relationships, I think there were two parts. Ask your
5 two questions.
6 MS. SOMERS: Yes, I'll break them down, Your
8 Q. Mr. Bilic, as you indicated, you were a small
9 number of persons in Busovaca municipality, relatively
10 speaking. Can you talk about the relationships that
11 may or may not have changed between and among the
12 groups as a result of the war between Serbia and
13 Croatia from 1991. I do not ask you necessarily as a
14 political person; I ask you, as you called yourself in
15 your summary, as a private person. How were the
16 relationships affected, please?
17 A. As a politician, I cannot tell you, because I
18 was not into politics and I don't know. And as for the
19 relations, they did not change much in that part.
20 Q. Did the Serb community feel that it had to be
21 more cautious because it belonged to a group which was,
22 certainly technically, of the same nationality as what
23 has been described as the aggressor? Did that cause,
24 let's say, hesitation among the members of the Serb
1 A. I did not see any of that.
2 Q. The second part of my question concerned the
3 relationships that may or may not have been affected by
4 the moving of the conflict into Bosnia, where troops
5 backed by the JNA began attacks on non-Serb communities
6 in Mostar, on the territory of the same country in
7 which you were living. Did that make any difference or
8 cause any extra concern among those in the Serb
9 communities -- community, excuse me.
10 A. In Busovaca, where we were living, we did not
11 feel any change. Nobody harassed us to begin to feel
12 ill at ease, out of place there.
13 Q. You were aware --
14 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers.
15 Mr. Bilic, the question that was asked of you
16 was the following: Did you yourself at some point feel
17 perhaps some hostility or suspicion or mistrust between
18 the ethnic groups?
19 A. I did not feel any of that.
20 MS. SOMERS:
21 Q. Mr. Bilic, I'm going to ask you just to look
22 at something and ask for your reaction to it and how it
23 may have affected your community.
24 MS. SOMERS: If I could ask for Z46.2,
1 MR. SAYERS: Once again, Your Honour, the
2 same objection under Rule 90(h). I think the Rule is
3 absolutely clear. The cross-examination shall be
4 limited to the subject matter of the direct examination
5 or matters affecting credibility. But of course, the
6 Trial Chamber has discretion to permit inquiry into
7 additional matters, although it has to be conducted as
8 if on direct examination. But the point is this: It
9 is completely beyond the scope of anything that we
10 covered with the witness on direct examination, and
11 completely irrelevant.
12 MS. SOMERS: May I respond, Your Honour?
13 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers,
14 I think that the Rule has very well been stated.
15 Yesterday it was clearly spelled out by the President,
16 and you were here, which is that we will maintain -- we
17 will stick to what has been said in direct examination,
18 apart from, obviously, the questions that have to deal
19 with credibility. But I do not see in which way this
20 letter is linked to what we -- the issue we're dealing
21 with here.
22 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, if I may -- I'm
23 sorry. I beg your pardon.
24 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Yes, please
25 go on.
1 MS. SOMERS: I think this is a very important
2 point, and I want to indicate to the Court that I will
3 tie this in. One of the fundamental issues in this
4 case is what was going on between the Serbs and the
5 Croats. It is an essential issue that must be
6 documented to the Court, as well as through live
8 The fact that a witness was not political
9 does not mean, of course, that he or his community is
10 not affected by the political things happening around
11 him. In fact, the statements that were given on direct
12 examination suggest a willful blindness to circumstances
13 that are obvious, and I must bring this to the Court's
14 attention about what was happening, that any Serb
15 community that was concerned, rightfully, about its own
16 relationships should have been aware of. And the
17 points that are in the next -- I have about seven
18 documents, and no more, I think are critical at this
20 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers,
21 I think that these questions -- we did have other
22 opportunities to deal with them in this Trial Chamber.
23 I think that you should now go on to a different
24 question. I really cannot see the relation with this
25 witness. You asked him questions about inter-ethnic
1 relations. He said that nothing happened. So the
2 Trial Chamber will draw the consequences from that, and
3 please proceed with another line of questioning. Thank
5 MS. SOMERS: All right. I will reserve some
6 of these critical documents for next week's witnesses.
7 Thank you. And perhaps Mr. Nice will be able to avail
8 himself of them.
9 Q. I would like to ask you if you had become
10 aware, as a member of the Serb community, about certain
11 changes occurring between the political leadership, not
12 yourself, of the Serbs generally in Bosnia and the
13 political leadership of the Croats in Bosnia. Did you
14 know about those changes in 1992?
15 A. Whatever changes there were, I was aware of
16 some of them, but I did not engage in politics and I
17 didn't go into that area. All we wanted was to protect
18 ourselves, to survive, and we did not want to meddle
19 into any political processes or political events; we
20 just wanted to survive in that area.
21 Q. I see. Then you are suggesting that you were
22 unaware of a ceasefire agreement that was signed
23 between Radovan Karadzic and Mate Boban at the very end
24 of April, approximately 27 April 1992, in Graz,
25 Austria, which was announced publicly by all means of
1 communication -- radio, print media, other electronic
2 media -- on 6 May 1992. Are you saying that?
3 MR. SAYERS: Same objection, Your Honour.
4 Once again, that was not covered in direct
6 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Sayers,
7 I believe you have to stop interrupting us. We have
8 other concerns. Ms. Somers is verifying the
9 credibility of the witness by this question, and she is
10 fully entitled to ask you, because she's asking -- she
11 should be allowed to ask the question. It is simply a
12 factor of adjudicated facts and so she's completely in
13 her right to ask the question.
14 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Bilic,
15 would you please answer the question?
16 A. I have already stated, and I can repeat it a
17 hundred times: I did not engage in politics and I
18 didn't hear about it. I could have heard about it, but
19 I wasn't engaging in those things. I just wasn't
21 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers,
22 I think that you should now change the subject. We
23 have come to the end of this particular issue.
24 MS. SOMERS: Very well. Thank you, Your
1 Q. I would like to ask you a little bit about
2 your initial comments on the changes that took place in
3 Busovaca after what you called a supposed change in
4 government, but which many other witnesses have called
5 a putsch or a coup. Can I ask you, please, when after
6 the 10th of May 1992 did you first go back into the
7 town of Busovaca from your home near Kaonik?
8 A. I don't know the exact date, but I would go
9 there occasionally. I said that I did go to Busovaca
10 occasionally. But I did not write down the exact dates
11 when I went there or when I came back.
12 Q. When did you -- did you have to continue your
13 work with Dobrotvor to keep humanitarian aid collected
14 and distributed during the time or shortly after the
15 change in the government?
16 A. Yes. The food was distributed once or twice
17 a month, and that's when I went to town. And as far as
18 the distribution of food was concerned, there were no
19 changes; that is, the food was distributed and it went
20 on being distributed.
21 Q. But it was kept in the church, is that
22 correct, in the centre of the town?
23 A. The church is not in the centre of town; it
24 is at the outskirts.
25 Q. Within the municipality, within the town of
1 Busovaca, though? When you say "outskirts," it's still
2 town of Busovaca as opposed to your hamlet or somewhere
3 on the road to your hamlet; is that correct?
4 A. At the very entrance to town.
5 Q. All right. Now, you indicated that you were
6 terribly concerned about a crime problem. Who was
7 protecting the stores of food? Who would check up to
8 make sure there was no pillaging of your supplies? Did
9 you have to do that?
10 A. No, because the food was in the central
11 warehouse. The central warehouse had security. The
12 UNPROFOR provided it. And then UNPROFOR would notify
13 us, we would come and pick up the food that same day.
14 Q. Do you recall, between the 10th of May and
15 the 22nd of May, going into the town of Busovaca for
16 any purpose?
17 A. I don't recall.
18 Q. The Serb police officers who you said did not
19 change their positions after the change of government,
20 can you please give us their names?
21 A. Yes. One of them still lives in Busovaca.
22 He is retired. His name is Milenko Hercegovac.
23 Q. And was he in Busovaca during the entire
24 period of the conflict?
25 A. Yes, he was.
1 Q. Now, do you know whether or not he had a
2 weapon which he took home?
3 A. I don't know about that.
4 Q. Did you notice when you got back into the
5 town of Busovaca after the 10th of May, 1992, that a
6 Croat flag was flying over the municipal building?
7 A. Let me tell you something. When I went to
8 town, when I went to the church, I could go there five
9 or six times to go to the Dobrotvor and never to go
11 Q. And no one with whom you associated,
12 including the Serb police officers who must have had to
13 go into town, told you that a Croat flag was then
14 flying over the municipal building; is that correct?
15 A. I did not socialise with the Serbian
17 Q. Was anyone you know affected by the total
18 blockade around Busovaca that was put in place by an
19 order of Dario Kordic on the 10th of May, 1992, and
20 lifted by the same persons on the 22nd of May, 1992?
21 A. I'm not aware of anyone having had any
23 Q. Does your house have electricity?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you own a television?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Do you own a radio -- did you own a radio and
3 television at that time?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you ever listen to or watch those two
7 A. Occasionally I watched television.
8 Q. You indicated that you met with Dario Kordic,
9 apparently for the first time, on the 13th of June,
10 1992, and you said that it was at a crisis staff
11 meeting. Can you explain that, please? Where was the
12 crisis staff meeting held?
13 A. In the municipal building.
14 Q. And who attended on behalf of the SDA,
16 A. I don't know that, because I didn't know many
17 of these people. I knew one of them. His name was
18 Dizdarevic, but I did not know the others.
19 Q. Can you explain this meeting of a crisis
20 staff in light of part of an order issued by Dario
21 Kordic which this Court already knows about from Z111A,
22 longstanding, from 22nd of May, 1992, which says:
23 "Because the HVO of the Busovaca
24 municipality is leading the whole organisation of life
25 and defence of Busovaca, the Busovaca Municipal
1 Assembly, the Busovaca Executive Council, and the
2 Busovaca Municipal Crisis Command will not do their
3 duties anymore, nor will they make any decisions until
4 the conditions are improved."
5 Now, how does this square with the meeting of
6 the crisis staff which apparently was non-existent at
7 the time?
8 A. As far as I recall, we gathered in this
9 crisis staff to discuss the problems in Gradina. We
10 discussed the problem which had arisen in Grablje.
11 Q. Did you gather there to come to some
13 A. Yes, we gathered in the municipal building in
14 order to resolve this issue.
15 Q. But how could there be a decision taken by a
16 nonexistent body? Could you explain that, please.
17 A. I don't know that.
18 Q. Do you know a Serb named Zdravko Bilanovic,
19 or Bilanovic?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Where did he live, please? What part of
23 A. He lived behind the Catholic church, near the
25 Q. Would that have been an area near Podjele?
1 Would that be a proper area to call it, Podjele?
2 A. That's not Podjele. He had an apartment in
3 the town.
4 Q. What happened to him? Where did he go?
5 A. I don't know where he went. He went over to
6 the Serbian side but I don't know beyond that.
7 Q. That was in May of 1992, was it not, roughly?
8 A. I don't know what year it was. His village,
9 left in November 1992.
10 Q. Did it concern you that you were losing
11 members of your Serbian community, which was already
12 rather small?
13 A. We were concerned but we couldn't do anything
14 about it. It was people's own will, decision.
15 Q. You had indicated in one of your summary
16 points that in order to leave Busovaca there had to be
17 written permission. I believe it's number 12. Let me
18 just check. That you had to have -- let's see. Number
19 12 indicates that you had to obtain HVO passes to be
20 let through checkpoints to travel towards Serb-held
21 territory. Can you tell the Judges, please, from whom
22 you obtained these passes?
23 A. We were obtaining those passes from the HVO,
24 Mr. Kordic.
25 Q. I'm sorry. "From the HVO, Mr. Kordic," was
1 that your answer?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, there has been other testimony to this
4 effect, and it was indicated that one Serb who wanted
5 to leave was a fellow named Mico Bulatovic. Do you
6 know him or did you know him?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Once you got your pass, how were you able to
9 have safe conduct through to Serb territory? What did
10 the HVO do for you?
11 A. When a convoy would be put together, then the
12 time for departure would be set and we would be given
13 the escort, and the police would go with us until we
14 reached the Serb territory.
15 Q. The HVO police?
16 A. I don't know. They had blue uniforms so I
17 think my guess is that it was the civilian police.
18 Q. Croat police, in other words.
19 A. Well, such as it was in Busovaca.
20 Q. Were they armed?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Did you ever make the trip along with any of
23 your fellow Serbs and then return? Have you ever been
24 to Serb territory during the conflict?
25 A. I only went as far as Kobiljaca with the
1 convoys, and then I would turn back.
2 Q. That was one end of the road, was that not,
3 the Kobiljaca road, and then there was another ending
4 point. Can you tell us about --
5 A. It was Kobiljaca that was at the end. That
6 was the last Croat checkpoint.
7 Q. How long did it take to make the trip?
8 A. It's some 40 kilometres, and then it
10 Q. When you made the trip, how long did it take
11 you to come and go, from Busovaca to Kobiljaca?
12 A. Well, I'm telling you, it depended on the
13 size of the convoy and how it could move. So it would
14 take you one hour, an hour and a half, perhaps.
15 Q. I'm sorry. That was your trip. I'm only
16 asking about your trip. So the convoy was already
17 complete by the time it left Busovaca, or did it pick
18 people up along the way?
19 A. No. The point of departure was Busovaca.
20 That is where people gathered, came from other places
21 to Busovaca, and that was the point of departure. So
22 the convoy did not stop to take up other people from
23 other places, and there were no other people to pick up
24 up there.
25 Q. Did people leave with their furniture and
1 suitcases full of clothing and other personal
2 possessions? Just what did people leave with, please?
3 A. They had only smaller things, their personal
4 belongings, whatever they could put in bags. So I
5 suppose their wardrobe and things like that, nothing
6 of -- nothing bulky.
7 Q. These people who left, were they given five
8 minutes to leave, or was this a more timely, planned
10 A. Their departure was not planned. They were
11 gathering in the municipality of Busovaca, and they
12 were put up in some Serb houses, some Croats also
13 received them. There would be so many of us, not five
14 or ten, but as many that could gather together, we
15 would come together then and the convoy would leave.
16 Q. But the Serb families from Busovaca who left,
17 who chose to leave, did they leave in haste or did they
18 have time to gather their things?
19 A. No, they did not have to leave in haste.
20 Q. What happened to their furniture, their cars,
21 their apartments? Where did they go?
22 A. Cars, they took with themselves, and now the
23 flats are being returned.
24 Q. But at that time what happened to those
25 flats? If they were empty, who took them? Were they
1 empty by agreement? What happened to the furniture and
2 other personal belongings?
3 A. I do not really know much about that. But
4 those were mostly people who were living in Busovaca
5 who needed flats, who needed housing there, they left
6 it to those friends because most of those flats have
7 survived, they have not been demolished.
8 Q. How many Muslim refugees were relocated into
9 those Serb houses, if you know, please?
10 A. I don't know. All I can tell you is that the
11 village of Katici, which is next to that Muslim
12 village, of 22 houses, three survived. All the others
13 were destroyed. In the town where there were 13 such
14 houses, I believe there are eight still standing. In
15 Kuber, they were all destroyed. In the village of
16 Topolje, they were all destroyed. In Topolje, they
17 were empty but the houses were destroyed.
18 Q. Did you personally resettle any refugees or
19 other persons, including Croat residents of Busovaca,
20 into any of the homes which were abandoned by the
21 retreating Serbs?
22 A. Not in the town but, yes, in the village
23 where I live now.
24 Q. Whom did you resettle, please?
25 A. They are all Croat families accommodated into
2 Q. Are they still there today?
3 A. No. They came about a month ago to live
5 Q. From where did they come?
6 A. One is a refugee family from the municipality
7 of Kakanj, the village of Dusina, and another one from
8 Busovaca municipality, that is, the village of Putis.
9 Q. I want to make sure I understand. Do you
10 mean from 1992 until a month ago those houses were
11 empty and you just resettled them with refugees from
12 Kakanj and Dusina? Is that what you're telling us?
13 A. When the refugees were going in 1992, they
14 were all in those houses but they were coming and
15 going. They were being accommodated in those houses.
16 After that those houses stayed empty, because these
17 houses are in my village, they belong to my relatives.
18 They were not demolished or anything. And now I was
19 told that there was a need to house some people and I
20 offered these houses for that purpose.
21 Q. They belong to your relatives, does that mean
22 your relatives fled from Busovaca?
23 A. They left those houses earlier. One of them
24 was living in Slovenia; another one in Tivat.
25 Q. If you know, refugees aside, the particular
1 persons who chose to leave Busovaca on the convoy that
2 you accompanied, where were they actually heading in
3 Serb territory? What was their ultimate destination?
4 A. The first destination was Rakovica. Then the
5 Serb side distributed them, but I do not know where and
6 how. But the reception centre was at Rakovica.
7 Q. I'm not quite sure you answered my question
8 about what happened to furniture and possessions. But
9 particularly, what happened to all the livestock of
10 these people?
11 A. I don't know.
12 Q. Did you take any of the possessions or
13 livestock of any of your departing fellow Serbs?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did you benefit in any way from the sale of
16 any of these items?
17 A. To begin with, there was no sale, and I
18 didn't -- secondly, I did not benefit from it.
19 Q. Why did you stay?
20 A. Because that's where I lived, and I didn't
21 want to leave the place where I lived.
22 Q. And you didn't have to leave; is that
24 A. I did not. I did not have to, and I did not
1 Q. Can you explain why all the other people
2 left, if they didn't have to?
3 A. I'll explain it to you. The villages that
4 had been left, they were half/half Muslim or were
5 adjoining to Muslim villages, so they left. I mean,
6 they were afraid and that's how they left.
7 Q. But had they not always been half/half Muslim
8 or adjoining to Muslim villages? What happened that
9 suddenly made them leave?
10 A. I wouldn't know that, because they were
11 cohabiting with them. How it was, I don't know. What
12 made them leave, I don't know. What was their motive,
13 I wouldn't know.
14 Q. Were these people who came to you for
15 religious rites or functions in your capacity as the
16 Serbian priest?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Did they share with you why they were going
19 or what their particular reasons may have been?
20 A. All they said was that they were too afraid
21 to stay there and live, since they were close to the
22 Muslim villages.
23 Q. But this was 1992. You indicated you had had
24 no problems with the Muslims. Why would they have had
25 a different perspective? What was happening?
1 A. Well, in 1992 you already had the incident at
3 Q. How many persons were affected, and was there
4 another incident after that in 1992, close in time?
5 A. Well, after that incident in 1992, all those
6 villagers left. Nobody had left before the incident.
7 Q. But you didn't leave. Why? What was
8 different for you?
9 A. I did not want to go. Nobody forced me to.
10 I did not live near either of the two groups, because
11 my hamlet stands on its own.
12 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers,
13 I believe that you have already exhausted this subject,
14 and will you please move on to another issue so that we
15 could make some progress.
16 MS. SOMERS:
17 Q. Let me ask you about a comment. There was
18 one that was left open by Defence counsel?
19 MS. SOMERS: And Your Honours, I'm not clear
20 whether the actual paragraph 17 is withdrawn as a point
21 of evidence or how we are looking at these signed
22 statements, but there was no examination elicited on
23 that point. If it, in fact, is withdrawn, I will not
24 ask that question; if it is still pending, or a part of
25 the case, as it were, then I will proceed. Yesterday
1 Mr. Sayers simply indicated that he was not going to
2 ask questions and will leave it to cross, but that was
3 vague as to its status in evidence.
4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] You said
5 paragraph 17?
6 MS. SOMERS: Yes, it was 17. And if the
7 position is this is not the -- this does not comprise
8 the entire direct because it is signed, then I will not
9 worry. Otherwise I will ask a brief question about
11 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] We do not
12 quite understand, Ms. Somers. The point in paragraph
13 17, you mean paragraph 17 of Mr. Bilic's statement, is
15 MS. SOMERS: Yes.
16 JUDGE MAY: And which was the evidence which
17 was to be shown here, which was withdrawn.
18 MS. SOMERS: It's unclear what the point
19 would have been; however, the fact that the witness
20 seems to have allegedly under his own hand made that
21 statement, I think should at least bear some inquiry as
22 to why he would come to that conclusion.
23 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Paragraph 17
25 "I know that several murders were committed
1 in the municipality in early 1993, but I do not know
2 who the perpetrators were. I assume that whichever
3 army controlled a particular territory at the time was
4 responsible for the murders which took place in it."
5 Mr. Sayers, could you please help us on this,
6 on this paragraph.
7 MR. SAYERS: Yes, Your Honours. Just to
8 remind you of what happened yesterday, we went through
9 this statement in 31 minutes. We wanted to present
10 evidence expeditiously. I just went over that
11 paragraph and said if the Prosecution wanted to ask
12 Mr. Bilic any questions about it, they certainly
13 could. As I understand it, these summaries are not
14 evidence. I think that's pretty clear. They're simply
15 a prediction of what the witness is going to say in
16 Court. And I indicated that he could answer questions
17 addressed to that subject if the Prosecution wanted to
18 ask them. The same convention was used by the
19 Prosecution when they were presenting testimony through
20 their witnesses.
21 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Yes. Now,
22 if I understand well regarding that paragraph, you are
23 saying this is the exhibit. You did not ask any
24 questions about this item. Is that so? So it is up to
25 you to decide what you want to do about this.
1 MS. SOMERS: Okay. I just wanted to get an
2 understanding of what the effect now -- because it is
3 different from our summaries, which were not signed and
4 were simply guidelines.
5 Q. I will ask you, simply, why on earth you
6 would make the assumption that because something
7 occurred on a particular territory, that an army was
8 responsible for it. What led you to that conclusion?
9 A. Well, you had them all over at that time
10 already, so who else could do it but an army?
11 Q. Was there no crime at all in Busovaca
12 municipality up to the time of this conflict? Was it a
13 crime-free area?
14 A. I don't know. I didn't work for the criminal
15 investigation department to be able to follow the crime
17 Q. You mentioned that a priest in -- let me see
18 now -- in paragraph 14, that there had been several
19 burglaries of a Serb Orthodox priest's apartment. Are
20 you suggesting that those burglaries --
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. -- which were spaced in 1991, and then twice
23 in 1992, were motivated by ethnic factors? Is that
24 your conclusion as a non-police person?
25 A. I don't know what the motive was. The flat
1 was burgled and the perpetrator was found. Whether the
2 motive behind it was just material gain or perhaps
3 something else, or ethnic, I don't know.
4 Q. Did you write this summary that was given to
5 us? Did you sit down yourself and write this?
6 A. I only talked to the lawyer, because I am not
7 competent enough to write that.
8 Q. You mentioned in paragraph 18 your concerns
9 about the crime situation and what you described as
10 armed refugees. It would be the bottom of page 4. Can
11 you explain, please, did you actually witness bands of
12 roving armed women and children coming into Busovaca
13 and committing crimes?
14 A. I did not see gangs of women and children. I
15 saw women and children and men in flight, and in arms
16 and in uniforms, and barefoot and hungry and thirsty,
17 escaping from the Travnik and fleeing from the Travnik
18 municipality to the Busovaca municipality.
19 Q. And these people were fleeing as a result of
20 having been driven out of their own areas; is that what
21 you're suggesting? You call them refugees.
22 A. Yes. That was the result of the conflict
23 between the Croats and Muslims in the Travnik
25 Q. Are you familiar with the number of
1 roadblocks that existed throughout Central Bosnia
2 during the period of time you're discussing?
3 A. No.
4 Q. And you are suggesting that a person could
5 come from a point from which he was fleeing and not be
6 disarmed by the aggressive powers? Is that what you're
7 suggesting, that the aggressor would not disarm men who
8 were fleeing, or women, for that matter?
9 A. Those people who were fleeing, they were
10 fleeing under fire, so nobody -- there was no time to
11 do anything. I mean, the fighting was going on and
12 they were retreating. Let me call it a retreat.
13 Q. Where was the fighting going on? Be
14 specific. Tell us where and what month and what year,
16 A. It was June '90 -- I don't remember the year,
17 but it was June and there was fighting around Guca
18 Gora. It was 1993 already; that's what I think.
19 Q. Let's talk about 1992. You were mentioning
20 presence of refugees. Where was the fighting at that
21 time? Please specifically tell us where it was coming
22 from, where they were coming from, where there was
23 fighting, and what months they were arriving in
25 A. In 1992, in November, refugees from Kotor
1 Varos and Jajce arrived.
2 Q. And did you complain to the police
3 authorities about an increase in the crime rate? Did
4 you file any complaints?
5 A. No, I was not filing any complaints.
6 Q. It was your town. Why did you not file
7 complaints? Did you not think it would ultimately
8 affect you?
9 A. I'm telling you, I didn't really go into town
10 very often, so I would learn something when -- a long
11 time after something had happened.
12 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers,
13 I believe that the question of refugees, you have gone
14 through it and --
15 MS. SOMERS: No problem, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] -- will you
17 please be mindful of the time --
18 MS. SOMERS: Yes, of course.
19 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] -- the time
20 devoted to the examination-in-chief and the
21 cross-examination, and will you please move on to the
22 next subject.
23 MS. SOMERS: Yes, of course, Your Honour. We
24 just view this particular witness as having information
25 that's terribly relevant to the indictment.
1 Q. I'd like to ask you, please, about the events
2 of January 1993. You told us yesterday that you did
3 not hear the multiple explosions that occurred the
4 night of the 20th of January, 1993, from your
5 not-too-distant home.
6 Can you tell us, please, a little bit about
7 the parade of some 250 or 230 Muslim males up to Kaonik
8 from Busovaca? Did you see that? And that would have
9 been, in fairness, that would have been really the
10 24th, 25th, and 26th, not the 20th. But from where you
11 were, did you observe that?
12 A. I did not observe that. I saw Muslims going
13 from Kaonik to the village Skradno -- no, Strane, and I
14 saw that only once. And what you are saying, I did not
15 see it.
16 Q. What were they doing in the village of
18 A. Not Skradno. To Strane. It's their village.
19 That's where they lived.
20 Q. What was the date?
21 A. I don't know.
22 Q. Can you tell us, did you observe buses or
23 convoys coming and going along the road to Kaonik from
24 where your home was?
25 A. No.
1 Q. Can you indicate, please, if you had been
2 aware during this period of time that Kaonik was being
3 used to detain Muslim males of military age? This
4 would be anywhere from very late 1992 or late 1992 all
5 the way through 1993. Did you know that?
6 A. I did.
7 Q. Did you do anything about assisting any of
8 the Muslims, or any of the other persons, if there were
9 or Serbs, perhaps, in Kaonik, with rations, with food?
10 A. To begin with, I didn't know who was there.
11 Yes, I did know some individuals.
12 Q. Whom did you know who was there?
13 A. I knew a man from a neighbouring village.
14 Q. Name, please.
15 A. Asim Sunulapasic.
16 Q. Do you know why he was there?
17 A. I don't know that.
18 Q. Did you make any effort to inquire?
19 A. I did not inquire why he was in the camp, but
20 later on I started seeing him again outside.
21 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers,
22 the question of Kaonik is not directly related to the
23 direct examination. You were asking questions about
24 Kaonik, and I believe you should now move on.
25 MS. SOMERS: The point was more towards his
1 attention or inattention to what was going on in the
2 area, not so much about Kaonik itself.
3 Q. Winding down, you mentioned that humanitarian
4 aid, in paragraph 19, was distributed equally, and what
5 did you mean by "equally"?
6 A. When the food arrived, the number of people
7 was known and it would be distributed. Let's say a
8 hundred tonnes of flour would come, and it would be
9 then divided, distributed, among the number of people
10 who were registered.
11 Q. In what proportions, do you know? Who set
12 those proportions? Did your group set those
14 A. No, it was not our group, but it depended on
15 the amount of food that would be brought in, and then
16 based on that, that food would be distributed. Then it
17 would be determined how much would each person get.
18 Q. And that food was food that came in on
19 convoys guided by UNPROFOR and other members of the
20 International Community; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Let me just check quickly. We probably can
23 end in a second.
24 Did you ever have to seek any permission for
25 any function whatsoever from Anto Sliskovic?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Do you know who he is or was?
3 A. I knew him but I don't know what his position
5 Q. Did you know Franjo Sliskovic?
6 A. I knew him. He was a cousin of mine.
7 Q. Do you know where he lived by the end of
9 A. As far as I know he lived in Busovaca.
10 Q. Do you know in the apartment of which Serb he
11 was living?
12 A. I don't know that.
13 MS. SOMERS: No further questions. Thank
15 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Sayers.
16 MR. SAYERS: Just one question, acting
17 Mr. President.
18 Re-examined by Mr. Sayers:
19 Q. Mr. Bilic, the transcript, on page 33, is a
20 little unclear. You said that food was brought in, in
21 a response to a question from Ms. Somers, by UNPROFOR
22 and the International Community. Did you mention any
23 other organisation too that doesn't appear in the
25 A. Yes, I also mentioned Caritas.
1 MR. SAYERS: Thank you very much. I thought
2 the translators had missed that but that clears it up.
3 Thank you. No further questions.
4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 Mr. Bilic, this concludes your testimony
6 before the International Tribunal. Thank you very much
7 for having come to give your evidence. You are now
8 free to go.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your
11 [The witness withdrew]
12 MS. SOMERS: Your Honours, the next witness,
13 from the standpoint of cross-examination, will be
14 handled by Mr. Nice who should be on his way to the
15 courtroom now. If the Court would indulge us. If
16 there is any other housekeeping matter that I can
17 assist with, I can try to handle that.
18 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Very well.
19 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, excuse me for
20 interrupting. Before starting, my client will need to
21 go to the bathroom in a hurry. Could he leave? I
22 mean, we can work, of course, without him.
23 [Trial Chamber and legal officer
25 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]
1 Ms. Featherstone has just made a proposal which I will
2 fully endorse. We shall take a break now and we shall
3 be back at ten past eleven.
4 --- Recess taken at 10.40 a.m.
5 --- On resuming at 11.10 a.m.
6 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Maric,
7 wait a moment. You have to take the solemn declaration
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly
10 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
11 and nothing but the truth.
12 WITNESS: ZORAN MARIC
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 Will you take your seat now, please.
16 Mr. Naumovski.
17 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,
18 Your Honour.
19 Before we start, I would just like to request
20 something of the Trial Chamber. This is one of the
21 witnesses whose outline is relatively comprehensive and
22 I would like to request that the witness perhaps
23 occasionally consult it, use it as an aide-memoire.
24 He's not going to read from it but just use it
25 occasionally if he needs to remind himself of
2 MR. NICE: We'd much prefer the witnesses not
3 to do that. We've seen quite a lot of witnesses
4 reading their aide-memoires in the Defence case, and I
5 would prefer that not to happen. It's a matter for the
7 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I have to say
8 that this was introduced, this custom was introduced
9 during the Prosecution case when witnesses were
10 consulting on occasions.
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] I think that
13 the principle by which we are governed here is that
14 these summaries are not made for witnesses to read
15 them, that they were introduced into our practice to
16 help us move on through testimonies more
17 expeditiously. We shall rather listen to the witnesses
19 It is quite true that there are also some
20 exceptions when we have allowed the witnesses to do
21 it. When you reach a certain point, if there is really
22 a problem, at such point we shall ask Mr. Nice if he
23 insists on his objection on that particular point, and
24 we shall then rule accordingly.
25 So Mr. Naumovski, will you please now begin
1 your examination of the witness.
2 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,
3 Your Honours.
4 Examined by Mr. Naumovski:
5 Q. Mr. Maric, would you please state your full
6 name for the Chamber.
7 A. My name is Zoran Maric.
8 Q. Mr. Maric, you were born on 6 March 1957, in
9 the village of Podjele, in the Busovaca municipality.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You're an ethnic Croat and you're a Roman
12 Catholic by religion.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. You spent your entire life in Busovaca; you
15 continue to live there to date with your wife and two
17 A. From my birth until now I have lived in my
18 hometown of Busovaca.
19 Q. Mr. Maric, after you graduated from
20 elementary and high school, you studied forestry in
21 Sarajevo and you graduated in 1982.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Mr. Maric, I would just like to ask you to
24 make the work easier for the interpreters, so if you
25 could please pause between my question and your
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. So you have a degree in forestry, and as a
4 forestry engineer you worked in a company in Travnik
5 called Sebesic and then in a company named Lasvansko,
6 and then after that you were part of the Busovaca
7 Forestry Department.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. In 1990, when the multiparty system was
10 introduced, you became involved in the formation of the
11 Busovaca branch of the Croat Democratic Union of
13 A. Yes. Yes, I'm a member of the HDZ from 1
14 August 1989.
15 Q. After the 1990 elections in Busovaca, where
16 the HDZ party received the most votes, you became the
17 president of the municipal parliament.
18 A. At the first session, which was held on 14
19 December 1990, I was elected the presiding officer, as
20 it was called at that time, and Asim Sunulapasic was
21 also elected there.
22 Q. Let us -- when you say that this was a
23 president of the municipal council, or board, that was
24 the local government; isn't it so?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. After the elections, this municipal assembly
2 worked until the 2nd of April, 1992, when there was a
3 clear threat of war. In this last session of the
4 parliament, to whom did this municipal parliament
5 transfer its powers?
6 A. The situation in the territory of former
7 Yugoslavia was worsening, and with the wars in Croatia
8 and Slovenia and with the pull-out of the JNA from
9 Croatia and redeployment of its troops in
10 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the situation was very difficult.
11 And following the principles of the system which was
12 enforced at that time, we needed to call an
13 extraordinary session of the local parliament, which
14 was to appoint a body that would continue to lead the
15 municipality in this situation of the imminent threat
16 of war. In this session I was appointed the president
17 of the crisis staff of the municipality of Busovaca.
18 Q. I didn't quite understand what you said. You
19 were talking about April or another month?
20 A. That was on the 2nd of April.
21 Q. This crisis staff to which the municipal
22 parliament transferred its powers was composed of
23 members of all parties?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And for the municipality of Busovaca, it
1 meant that it included Serbs, Croats, and Muslims?
2 A. Yes. I can say openly here that the Croatian
3 Democratic Union and the SDA, which was Muslim, and
4 SDS, which was Serbian, in these first parliamentary
5 elections had a joint list of candidates, and this
6 coalition -- and in addition to this coalition, a list
7 of members, representatives, of the Reform Party and
8 the SDP were also included.
9 Q. We will later touch on this coalition. I
10 don't want to take you so broadly into this area. But
11 you were the chief of this crisis staff, and from
12 October 1992 until April 1994 you were also acting
13 president of the HVO government in Busovaca?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. After the war ended, from April 1994 until
16 1996, you were the minister of forestry for Central
17 Bosnia of the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina?
18 A. Yes, that is correct.
19 Q. Currently, Mr. Maric, you're president of the
20 parliament of the Central Bosnia canton, which is one
21 of the ten cantons in the Federation of Bosnia and
22 Herzegovina established after the Washington Accords?
23 A. Yes. Currently I am the president of the
24 parliament of the Central Bosnia canton. This canton
25 has a special status, and in the founding session I was
1 appointed the president of this body and I was in that
2 position for about one month. A law was to be put in
3 force where there was to be a rotation between myself
4 and the Muslim representative who was to become the new
5 president, and in November last year I again resumed
6 the position of the president of the parliament of
7 Central Bosnia canton. And in that same session I was
8 also elected a member of the House of Representatives
9 in the Federation, and I'm also a member in the House
10 of Representatives of Bosnia and Herzegovina, which
11 consists of five Croats, five ethnic Muslims, and five
13 Q. You said that you were elected at the session
14 of the parliament of Central Bosnia canton, and you
15 received votes from Croats and maybe some others.
16 A. I was elected by all the political parties
17 which were in the parliament. They consisted of the
18 Croats, Bosniak Muslims, and others, and I was elected
20 Q. Just one further detail in that regard. Who
21 is now your deputy? With whom do you rotate in this
22 position of president?
23 A. In the House of Representatives of my canton,
24 it is Ejub Mujic from Kiseljak, an ethnic Muslim.
25 Q. Very well. Let me take you to 1990. The
1 Trial Chamber heard enough about the new parties which
2 were formed, nationally based: the HDZ the SDA and the
3 SDS. Now, speaking of the Busovaca branch, the
4 Busovaca branch started organising after the other two
5 ethnic-based parties were already established?
6 A. Yes. The Croatian Democratic Union, in its
7 session of 30th of September, elected its leadership,
8 and I was elected one of them. I was the
9 vice-president. Then Mr. Barac, from Zenica, was
10 elected president.
11 Q. When you say "30 September," you're referring
12 to 1990?
13 A. Yes, 1990.
14 Q. And who was the other vice-president?
15 A. The other vice-president was Mr. Niko
16 Grubesic, and also Mr. Dragutin Franc, and the
17 secretary -- to the position of secretary, Mr. Dario
18 Kordic was elected.
19 Q. When we're talking about this period, you
20 know that Mr. Dragutin Cicak claimed that Mr. Franc was
21 the HDZ president in Busovaca?
22 A. I am not at all surprised that Mr. Dragutin
23 Cicak stated something like this, because he was -- he
24 took an early retirement because of his illness, and
25 Mr. Dragutin Franc was the head of the coalition list
1 for the Busovaca parliament; that is, the coalition of
2 the HDZ, SDA, and SDS.
3 Q. You mentioned an illness in respect of
4 Mr. Cicak. Were there any problems? You held meetings
5 in your municipal HDZ board. I assume that you
6 attended a number of such meetings where Mr. Cicak was
7 also there. Were there any incidents?
8 A. Occasionally there were some when he wanted
9 to push through some of his ideas, but he is a person
10 who is not fully accountable for his actions.
11 Q. You touched on something else, and I just
12 want to follow up on this. You said that there were
13 three parties -- the HDZ, the SDA and the SDS -- at the
14 municipal level formed a pre-election coalition where
15 certain things were agreed and a platform was adopted
16 with which you went to elections. Do you know whether
17 the representatives of the SDS, HDZ and the SDA met
18 with the president of SDA, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, in
19 order for him to confirm the -- to the coalition?
20 A. Yes. And Mr. Alija Izetbegovic agreed that
21 the SDA should become a coalition member, together with
22 the SDS and the HDZ.
23 Q. My apologies. I think that we are too fast,
24 so I'm pausing, and I would like you to pause also,
25 because it is important that everything said be
2 Mr. Maric, the Trial Chamber has had an
3 opportunity to hear that on the 18th of December, 1990,
4 the first parliamentary elections were held in Bosnia
5 and Herzegovina, and your coalition, the coalition of
6 the HDZ, SDA, and SDS, won; they won the largest number
7 of votes in Busovaca municipality. But among the three
8 coalition members, which party won the most?
9 A. At that time the Busovaca parliament had 60
10 representatives. The HDZ, SDA, and SDS coalition
11 received 64 per cent of the vote. Out of the 64 per
12 cent, the HDZ had 20 representatives.
13 Q. On the basis of your pre-election coalition
14 agreement, I assume that you had also agreed on who was
15 going to get which position. Could you just tell to
16 whom some of the top positions were allocated.
17 A. At the first session I was elected the
18 president of the municipality and Mr. Asim Sunulahpasic
19 was elected the president of the local government.
20 According to the list, a Serb was supposed to be given
21 the position of the chief of police. The chief of
22 police was the name used for that position. But the
23 Serbs didn't get that position; rather it went to the
24 Muslims. But Peko Rajak became the secretary of the
25 executive council, that was the third position, and my
1 secretary was Niko Grubesic.
2 Q. When you say "they," Peko Rajak was a
3 representative of the Serbs so you're referring to the
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So who was then appointed the chief of
8 A. Mr. Husnija Neslanovic became the chief of
10 Q. Who was allocated the post of the commander
11 of the Territorial Defence?
12 A. It was another ethnic Muslim. It was
13 Mr. Husein Hadzimejlic who became the commander of the
14 Territorial Defence.
15 Q. Other positions were also filled in this
16 local government at that time, and one of the positions
17 went to Mr. Kordic.
18 A. Yes. Mr. Kordic was appointed the secretary
19 of the defence, that is, the secretariat of defence as
20 it was called then.
21 Q. The body that you mentioned was part of the
22 civilian government in the municipality.
23 A. Yes.
24 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]
25 Mr. Naumovski, I should only like to ask Mr. Maric if
1 these parties -- that is, the elections in which he
2 participated in 1990, at the beginning of the
3 multiparty system, the three parties he mentioned, the
4 HDZ, the SDA, and SDS, were they all organised on
5 strictly ethnic grounds? Were they all organised on
6 strictly ethnic principles?
7 A. As for the democracy in 1990, which was
8 taking place in the territory of the former Yugoslavia,
9 every people had its own multiparty system, so that the
10 Croat people had the Croat Democratic Union, which was
11 the predominant party in the territory of
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina. As for the Party for Democratic
13 Action, it is the party of the Muslim people, which
14 also played an important role in its own people. As
15 for the SDS, it was also one of the important parties
16 of the Serb people.
17 Yes, they were based on the principle of
18 democracy because each one of those parties included
19 the word "democratic" in its name.
20 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]
22 Q. I just looked at the transcript, Mr. Maric.
23 It doesn't really matter but I believe there is an
24 error, and also in the summary. I said that the first
25 elections took place on the 18th of November. However,
1 here it says December, and also the summary says that.
2 A. On the 14th of December I was elected the
3 president of the assembly, that is, the mayor, and
4 Mr. Asim Sunulahpasic, that was when we held the
5 constituting assembly of the municipality of Busovaca.
6 And the elections took place on the 18th of November.
7 Q. Very well. Thank you.
8 A. I'm sure you all know that they took place on
9 the 18th of November.
10 Q. I do apologise for responding but it was an
11 error and we need to be precise. Very well. Thank
13 Then some time in the summer, in July 1991,
14 the JNA offensive began when the Republic of Croatia
15 was attacked. You know which duties Mr. Dario Kordic,
16 as the secretary for the defence of the municipality,
17 discharged in order to prevent young people from
18 joining the JNA and fighting the Republic of Croatia.
19 A. Yes. As the situation aggravated in the
20 territory of the former Yugoslavia, from the territory
21 of the municipality of Busovaca, people mostly went to
22 the territories of other republics at the time; that
23 is, those young men who were leaving to serve with the
24 army at that time, Mr. Dario Kordic very actively
25 committed himself, when asked my villagers of other
1 places, to see that their children did not go to the
2 front because the then Yugoslav People's Army would --
3 as soon as they came to serve the army, they would send
4 them to the front. So their parents were asking that
5 their young sons not be sent from the municipality to
6 serve the Yugoslav People's Army, and Mr. Dario Kordic
7 was helping the people of Busovaca in that.
8 Q. Moreover, not only you but other inhabitants
9 in Busovaca, and Mr. Kordic too, of course, conducted
10 certain activities to block the armament convoys going
11 through Bosnia-Herzegovina with a view to preventing
12 that these weapons be taken to the territory of the
13 Republic of Croatia.
14 A. Well, the weapons were being taken to the
15 territory of the Republic of Croatia, mainly to those
16 areas inhabited by Serbs. So that in October I stopped
17 a convoy heading for Sarajevo, or rather its ultimate
18 destination was Ustikolina, and at that time I stopped
19 that armada at Kaonik.
20 I can also say that that convoy was carrying
21 shells which, at a later stage, began to fall on
22 Sarajevo, and I requested -- I demanded from
23 Mr. Stjepan Kljuic and Mr. Hebib, the then Minister of
24 the Interior, to see what these convoys were
25 transporting in the area. However, this Mr. Hebib, he
1 came and he personally took over and released a convoy
2 which went on to Sarajevo, and lamentably, there the
3 shells were dropping and bombing Sarajevo all that
5 Q. You have just told the Court about one of the
6 convoys which were coming up. The Court has already
7 had the opportunity to hear about this because a lot
8 has been already said about the village -- about the
9 attack on the village of Ravno. It is paragraph 12.
10 Just one sentence. You will agree, or rather, that is
11 your idea that you, the Croats, perceived the attack on
12 the village of Ravno in September as the beginning of
13 the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
14 A. Yes. The first attack, the first armed
15 attack on the -- in the territory of
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina, on the village of Ravno, was the
17 beginning of the offensive of the JNA on the territory
18 of Bosnia-Herzegovina. However, some, especially
19 Muslim front men, did not realise that the attack on
20 the village of Ravno was also the beginning of the
21 offensive against the Croat and Bosniak, that is,
22 Muslim, people.
23 Q. Tell us, please, that was the time when young
24 men were leaving, and I'm referring specifically to
25 Central Bosnia, to Busovaca, were leaving to go and
1 help the Republic of Croatia in the defence of its
2 borders. This was not done publicly, was it? It was
3 mostly done on the sly.
4 A. Indeed. Many young men went from the
5 territory of the municipality of Busovaca, but not only
6 from the territory of Busovaca, they were going from
7 almost all the territory of the then Lasva Valley, not
8 to say the entire territory where there are Croats,
9 they went to help their brethren in Croatia. When they
10 arrived back in coffins, they had to be buried at
12 Q. Let's just try to give the full portrait of
13 the situation. 1991 is still the time when the only
14 lawful army in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina is
15 still the same JNA, which was attacking the Republic of
16 Croatia. Is that so?
17 A. Quite. The only lawful authority and army,
18 which at that time was then in the territory of
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is, the former Yugoslavia.
20 Q. Very well. We can move on.
21 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
22 we are moving to paragraph 14.
23 Q. In that attack of the JNA on the Republic of
24 Croatia, the shelling of Vukovar, that is, Dubrovnik,
25 added to your concern, distressed further you, the
1 Croats, in Bosnia-Herzegovina. I'm talking about
2 November 1991. Because of what was happening, did
3 you -- and realising the gravity of the moment, did you
4 then try to organise yourselves?
5 A. Quite so. The difficult situation in the
6 territories of the former Yugoslavia, and especially if
7 you look at the territories where the Yugoslav People's
8 Army has engaged in an open conflict with Croatia and
9 where thousands of men were getting killed, when there
10 was a major exodus of expelled people, when we could
11 see that this same script was being transferred from
12 the territories of Croatia to the territories of
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and we then began simply to
14 organise ourselves, to set up a stronger system because
15 we realised -- we saw that the government was looking
16 at it differently and we wanted to organise ourselves
17 in a democratic manner by creating those regions which
18 we tried to unite.
19 Q. If I understand you well, at the regional
20 level you simply discussed how to put up a defence
21 against the JNA.
22 A. Our principal goal was to defend ourselves
23 against the aggression in the territories of
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is, the territory of our
1 Q. In the territory of your region. Was that
2 the Travnik regional community, I suppose?
3 A. Precisely. We first organised ourselves by
4 establishing communication among all the municipalities
5 to see what was the stage of preparedness to resist
6 that aggression.
7 Q. However, it was because of the different
8 perception by peoples in Bosnia-Herzegovina as to the
9 developments in the Republic of Croatia, you the Croats
10 in Bosnia-Herzegovina established, how shall I call it,
11 an umbrella organisation, an umbrella union, for you
12 the Croats in Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that so?
13 A. Correct. On the 18th of November we
14 organised ourselves in the Croat Community of
16 Q. You didn't give us the year, sorry. It was
17 1991, wasn't it?
18 A. Yes, sure, 1991.
19 Q. Tell us, please, briefly, in a sentence if
20 you can, which was the primordial task of this Croat
21 Community that was established on the 18th of November,
23 A. The Croat Democratic -- that is, the Croat
24 Community of Herceg-Bosna its primary goal was to
25 organise itself against the aggression of the Serb
1 army, that is, Yugoslav People's Army at that time.
2 Q. The Croats were a minority people. This was
3 a minority people in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
4 A. Yes, it is true.
5 Q. Once again, I mean in percentage terms
6 against other peoples.
7 A. According to the census of 1991, at that time
8 we had about 17.2 or 17.3 per cent.
9 Q. Tell us, please, because it needs to be said
10 at this point in time, until that time, until the
11 beginning of the war, in the territories of the former
12 Yugoslavia, regardless of the numerical size of peoples
13 in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the peoples in
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and by this I mean, in the first
15 place, Serbs, Muslims, and Croats, they were all equal
16 constituent peoples of that republic, of
18 A. Yes. These three peoples, Muslims came first
19 because they were the largest community, then Serbs,
20 and then Croats; they were constituent peoples in the
21 territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina. We are one of the
22 constituent peoples and we wanted to defend our
23 homeland, Bosnia-Herzegovina, on equal terms.
24 Q. Mr. Maric, you attended the meeting which
25 founded the Croat Community of Herceg-Bosna.
1 Mr. Kordic was present too.
2 A. Yes, I was present at that meeting when the
3 Croat Community of Herceg-Bosna was founded, and
4 Mr. Dario Kordic was present. He was also the
5 president of the Busovaca HDZ at the time. And we
6 signed it. He signed on behalf of Busovaca. Had he
7 not signed it, then I would have done that.
8 Q. In those early days, there were not any major
9 activities of the Croat Community of Herceg-Bosna, but
10 as the time went on, the presidency of the Croat
11 Community of Herceg-Bosna was set up. Will you tell us
12 who became the members? Who constituted the presidency
13 of the Croat Community of Herceg-Bosna, and which were
14 the duties of that body?
15 A. The presidency of the Croat Community of
16 Herceg-Bosna had its president, and the president was
17 Mr. Mate Boban. The vice-president -- one of the
18 vice-presidents was Mr. Dario Kordic, and also Mr. Bozo
19 Rajic. In addition to these -- along with these bodies
20 we had all the heads, the front men of municipal
21 governments, or rather mayors, mayors from the Croat
22 people and presidents of the executive boards, that is,
23 of local governments from those municipalities which
24 did not have their mayors.
25 Q. So all the municipality's signatories to the
1 declaration were represented on that presidency, isn't
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Tell us, after July 1991, which was the body
5 in the Croat Community of Herceg-Bosna which was
6 responsible for regulator activity, which was a
7 legislative body? Was it this presidency that we are
8 talking about or perhaps some other authority?
9 A. In July 1992, the government was -- of that
10 body was designated; that is, the government which was
11 operated, which was vested with all the properties,
12 qualities of the government; that is, departments for
13 economy, finance, defence, and so on. So, in point of
14 fact, the government was designated. And one of the
15 vice-presidents, one of the deputy prime ministers, was
16 Mr. Jadranko Prlic, and Anto Valenta was the
17 vice-president responsible for Central Bosnia.
18 Q. I see. But let us try to be more precise.
19 So until the appointment of the HVO government, it was
20 the presidency which was responsible for the adoption
21 of laws, was the legislator, and after the government
22 was founded --
23 A. The government took over, assumed all the
24 powers that was necessary for the further functioning
25 of that body.
1 Q. Very well. Thank you. We can then follow
2 the chronological order, and we are coming to the
3 incident in Kaonik in May 1992.
4 As you have already told the Court, on the
5 2nd of April, 1992, the crisis staff of the municipal
6 assembly of Busovaca was set up. It consisted of ten
7 members, and you were the chairman or the head of that
8 crisis staff; is that so?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you ran the affairs and life in the
11 municipality in view of the threat of war which was
12 looming over Bosnia-Herzegovina. But will you tell us,
13 which was the chief task of the crisis staff?
14 A. The chief task of the crisis staff was to run
15 the municipality in wartime conditions. That was the
16 general task. Because in the territory, or the
17 municipality of Busovaca, there were three barracks: at
18 Kacuni, Draga, and Kaonik. This crisis staff intended
19 to organise the activities about the evacuation of the
20 Yugoslav People's Army and to carry it to the end.
21 Q. Mr. Maric, we are being warned to slow down
22 and to make breaks, to make pauses between question and
23 answer, so shall we try to do that?
24 A. Yes. I apologise.
25 Q. It's not only your fault; it's also mine.
1 Now, briefly, very briefly, was there any
2 negotiation between the Muslim and the Croat community
3 in Busovaca who would take which barracks, in view of
4 the location of each of these barracks?
5 A. Indeed, there were negotiations, and we
6 reached an understanding at a meeting of the crisis
7 staff that the Kacuni barracks, which was evidently in
8 an area with the Muslim population, that it should be
9 given over for management to the Muslim part.
10 And the barracks at Draga, which was located
11 in the territory of the Croat population, it was agreed
12 that its armaments and the management over it should be
13 given to Croats.
14 The Kaonik barracks, which was four
15 kilometres away, in the direction of Zenica, four
16 kilometres from Busovaca, in the direction of Zenica,
17 at Travnik, it was located amidst the Croat majority.
18 But it was agreed then that the armaments in the
19 barracks should be distributed 50/50.
20 Q. Very well. Tell us, please, as the
21 negotiations about the dislocation of JNA from Busovaca
22 were going on, or rather when the Draga barracks in
23 Busovaca was evacuated on the 26th of April, 1992, is
24 also the day when the JNA bombed the town of Busovaca,
25 isn't it?
1 A. Yes. On the 26th of April -- and that was
2 Easter, the little Easter, as we call it -- Busovaca
3 was bombed at 1920. In that attack, three persons were
4 killed: a Muslim, a Croat, and a little 14-year-old
5 Croat girl. Buildings were on fire.
6 Q. Very well. I do not think we have to go into
7 detail; we just want to draw a general picture.
8 This business about the evacuation of the
9 troops from the Draga barracks, this business was
10 headed by Mr. Glavocevic on behalf of the crisis staff?
11 A. The crisis staff appointed Mr. Florijan
12 Glavocevic and Husein Hadzimejlic to conduct
13 negotiations and see about the evacuation of the
14 Yugoslav People's Army. So they were the two men
15 responsible for the evacuation of the barracks;
16 barracks, I mean first, second, and third barracks.
17 Q. Because of the bad experience with the Draga
18 barracks, I suppose there were negotiations about their
19 pull-out from the Kaonik barracks. These negotiations
20 were conducted much more carefully, if I may put it
21 that way. Could you briefly tell us, how did these
22 negotiations go?
23 A. As for negotiations about the evacuation of
24 the Kaonik barracks, it was agreed that it would be
25 evacuated and that the weaponry which was in it, that
1 it should be distributed equally between the Bosniak
2 Muslim and the Croat people. However, as this
3 distribution was underway -- and before that, I had a
4 crisis staff meeting, and everything was agreed how we
5 would proceed about this, and from that meeting I went
6 to the Kaonik barracks with Mr. Niko Grubesic, and then
7 the troops were -- the troops of the Yugoslav People's
8 Army were already set to go. They were all lined up
9 and we were waiting for them to be able to go out so
10 that we could jointly -- Florijan and Hadzimejlic
11 should then try and split up what there was to split
13 Q. Very well. Sorry I butt in, but I wanted to
14 say it was precisely because the JNA was in the
15 barracks. Will you tell us, please, where was the
16 control point of the HVO? How far from the barracks?
17 A. It was some 250 metres from the barracks, the
18 control point.
19 Q. And why was it put up?
20 A. The reason for it was to prevent the movement
21 of their units and to supervise the comings and goings
22 from the barracks, because I had also received
23 reports. And it is on record. I can check that. I
24 can check my conversation with Mr. Tomislav Sipcic,
25 which took place in Zenica, and where before that there
1 had been a major theft of weaponry, because that is
2 where the weapons of the Busovaca Territorial Defence
3 were stored. So that a theft had also taken place, so
4 that we had to monitor who was entering and leaving the
5 Kaonik barracks.
6 Q. And tell us, the place where this
7 supervision, where this control point, Sendolin Bridge?
8 A. Yes, it is Sendolin Bridge.
9 Q. Who are the people living there?
10 A. They are predominantly all Croats.
11 Q. And tell us, while you were in the barracks,
12 did you hear anything happening outside?
13 A. I was in the barracks and I heard a rifle
14 shot. There was a shot. And I can say that at that
15 moment the members of the Yugoslav People's Army took
16 their positions, that is, they all leapt into their
17 trenches. And at that moment I was informed that an
18 incident had taken place at this control point, that a
19 Croat and a Muslim had been wounded. And when this
20 gunfire, when this incident happened, we then
21 immediately stopped everything. We said that the
22 Yugoslav People's Army would not leave that place.
23 And then Mr. Glavocevic and Mr. Hadzimejlic
24 came to me and said that in the discotheque called
25 Leptir, a largeish group of able-bodied persons,
1 Muslims, headed by Mr. Merdan, Dzemal, wanted to simply
2 enter the Kaonik barracks so that they could take over
3 all those weapons themselves.
4 Q. Tell us, please: The understanding about the
5 division of weapons between the Muslims and Croats in
6 Busovaca, that was an understanding reached at the
7 local level, municipal local level; is that so?
8 A. Indeed, because the crisis staff, this staff,
9 as it was called then, took all decisions at their
10 meetings only with regard, in relation, to the relevant
11 municipality, that is, people of the municipality
12 concerned. So that we had reached that understanding,
13 and Mr. Dzemal Merdan, he was the commander of the
14 Territorial Staff, of the Territorial Defence,
15 quartered in the municipality of Zenica.
16 Q. This arrival of large numbers of military --
17 of the Muslims, what was supposed to do?
18 A. He was there trying to take over the
20 Q. In the end, Mr. Maric, who was to blame,
21 which side was to blame for the breach of agreement
22 which you reached in Busovaca municipality?
23 A. Mr. Dzemal Merdan is the guilty party because
24 he wanted to take over these weapons in a forcible
25 way. This created mistrust in relation to me and
1 Mr. Hadzimejlic because it was never part of the
2 agreement that Mr. Merdan would come with his soldiers
3 to take over those weapons.
4 Q. Mr. Maric, we should slow down. I believe
5 that one answer was not fully interpreted.
6 In addition to Mr. Merdan, who came from
7 Zenica, were there local commanders from the Patriotic
8 League or Territorial Defence who were involved in this
9 breach of agreement?
10 A. Yes. The commander of the Busovaca Patriotic
11 League, Mr. Dervis Sarajlic, also known as Gica, was
12 involved. That was his nickname.
13 Q. Can you remember any other name?
14 A. Alija Begic was also there. He was the
15 commander of the Patriotic League, but I don't know
16 what rank he held.
17 Q. This is why this agreement could not be
18 implemented, for which Mr. Florijan Glavocevic and
19 Mr. Husein Hadzimejlic were responsible.
20 A. Yes, this agreement could not be implemented,
21 and I requested that the crisis staff meet again so
22 that we could discuss the issue again. However, that
23 night, this was around 8.30 p.m., the representatives
24 of the Bosnian Muslims did not want to come, they
25 refused, and we made an agreement about what to do with
1 those weapons.
2 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
3 can we give an exhibit to the witness to see. It's
4 Z100. I prepared a copy and it can be given to the
5 witness to look at, with the permission of the
6 Chamber. Thank you.
7 Q. A little while ago, Mr. Maric, you said that
8 you had certain information that weapons were stolen
9 from the Kaonik barracks. Did you have any reports
10 that those weapons were being sold to one of the sides?
11 A. Yes. You should know that weapons could have
12 been taken only from the JNA, and a blackmarket was
13 created with these weapons.
14 Q. You said that that night a meeting of the
15 crisis staff was supposed to have taken place but it
16 never did, and then you, and I assume the Croat members
17 of the municipal staff, but you held a meeting in which
18 you tried to find a way out of the situation in which
19 you found yourselves.
20 A. Yes, precisely, and this is how this order
21 was compiled. It consists of 19 items, and it was
22 signed by the then commander of the municipal staff,
23 Mr. Ivo Brnada, and also it was signed by Mr. Dario
24 Kordic as the HVO vice-president.
25 What I want to say is that the Croatian
1 leadership, headed by myself, compiled this order and
2 it was signed as such. Mr. Dario Kordic was only there
3 to confirm that he was present at the time when the JNA
4 military barracks were vacated from the municipality of
6 Q. Perhaps we can just briefly go through the
7 contents of this document, which was adopted on 10 May
8 1992. It speaks for itself. We shouldn't burden the
9 Trial Chamber with it, but you brought it up in your
10 evidence so maybe you want to comment on some of these
11 items. If not, we can perhaps just wait for the
13 A. The order as such, I think, speaks for
14 itself. I think it is clear what it enjoined.
15 Q. Very well, then. Let us not go into any
16 details. I assume that there will be questions
17 relating to it.
18 But one of the items refers to the TO and
19 other organisations being placed under the control of
20 the HVO, or they will have to surrender their weapons
21 to the HVO. Was this decision ever implemented?
22 A. That decision was never implemented, because
23 the Territorial Defence, headed by Mr. Hadzimejlic,
24 continued to operate in the Busovaca municipality up
25 until 25 January 1993, which was terrible for us Croats
1 and all people of this territory because it was a day
2 without precedent in the history of the Busovaca
4 Q. Mr. Maric, there is also an order that the
5 units which are deployed in the Leptir club, that they
6 surrender to the HVO. Did they ever surrender to the
8 A. No, they never surrendered to the HVO. They
9 just pulled out. They were let go and they left the
10 area of the Leptir discotheque.
11 Q. Can you also say something about the item
12 referring to Merdan, Sarajlic, and Begic? Were they to
13 be arrested and released?
14 A. As far as I know, Messrs. Begic and Sarajlic
15 were not arrested. I just know that Mr. Merdan was
16 arrested and then released.
17 Q. But you do not know any details about it
18 because you were not involved in it?
19 A. I just wanted to add that sometime around
20 1200 hours I went home because I was fairly sick, so I
21 wasn't there until the very end.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: May I ask, who would affect
23 the arrest of Merdan, Sarajlic, and Begic? Who would
24 actually arrest them? Which body?
25 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Did you understand the question of Judge
2 Robinson, Mr. Maric?
3 A. Your Honours, Mr. Dzemal Merdan was arrested
4 by the police.
5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Were the others arrested?
6 A. The others, from the information I had, were
7 not arrested.
8 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.
9 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,
10 Your Honour.
11 Q. Another item from this document. A temporary
12 curfew was introduced, and "temporary" explains it all,
13 I think, but how long did this curfew last?
14 A. From what I know it only lasted for 72
16 Q. Were there any other repressive measures
17 taken against the Busovaca population, members of any
18 ethnic groups?
19 A. There was no repression. And Busovaca,
20 according to the census, had 47 per cent Bosniaks and
21 they were never mistreated, just as the Serbs were not
22 in those days, at the time when the curfew was in
24 Q. Mr. Maric, the crisis staff, who was the
25 authority at the time, was then disbanded and the HVO
1 decided to take over the functions of government.
2 A. Yes. By this order, the crisis staff was
3 disbanded, and I was its head, and the Croatian Defence
4 Council from then on assumed the full authority for the
5 Busovaca territory.
6 Q. Can you tell me, why was the town blocked and
7 why were the transports controlled on the road through
9 A. You must know that the bombing of the 26th of
10 April by the JNA had created a lot of suspicion, and
11 any movements of the JNA caused a lot of suspicion on
12 the part of the Croat and Muslim population. The first
13 bombing was terrible for us. So the checkpoints were
14 set up in order to prevent the passage of the JNA.
15 Q. If I understand you correctly, you simply
16 wanted to control the traffic; you wanted to control
17 all the convoys and the passage of persons and goods.
18 A. Precisely.
19 Q. You said a moment ago that the Territorial
20 Defence continued to operate in the Busovaca territory
21 after 10 May 1992. Can you tell the Trial Chamber
22 where the office of the TO commander, Mr. Husein
23 Hadzimejlic, was throughout 1992?
24 A. It was in Busovaca.
25 Q. Where? In which building?
1 A. In the municipal building, in one part of the
3 Q. In the same building where you worked; is
4 that so?
5 A. Yes.
6 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
7 we can move on. We're moving to paragraph 23.
8 Q. After several days of further JNA attacks on
9 your territory, you started to get organised and
10 started organising municipal services.
11 A. That is exactly right. The HVO government
12 was organised which wanted to restart the normal life
13 in Busovaca municipality, and things started coming
14 back to normal in those days.
15 Q. At the time when you reorganised the
16 administration, could the central government in
17 Sarajevo exercise any influence there in Busovaca?
18 Because at that time the government was besieged by the
19 Bosnian Serbs.
20 A. I can say that there was no influence from
21 the central government in Sarajevo because all
22 communication lines were practically interrupted. So
23 we had to rely on ourselves, and together with the
24 Bosnian Muslims we tried to solve all issues which we
25 needed to solve.
1 I need to point out here that the area of
2 Kupres was occupied at the time, and that was the main
3 highway to the coast. So you couldn't use the road
4 through Kupres and we had to look for a way out. We
5 started building a road, which we called "The Road of
6 Salvation," and that was the only way through which we
7 could resupply food stocks and medication which we
8 needed for the population of Busovaca municipality.
9 Q. What road was this; can you tell us?
10 A. This was the road Novi
11 Travnik-Pavlovica-Gornji Vakuf, which went on over
12 Mount Vran --
13 Q. Very well. Thank you.
14 A. -- down to Herzegovina.
15 Q. A moment ago you told the Trial Chamber that
16 the HVO government in the Croatian Community of
17 Herceg-Bosna was established in August. But looking
18 from May on and taking into account all of the HZ HB,
19 was there a distinction between the HVO-HDZ in
20 Busovaca, or was there still confusion over this?
21 A. At first there was confusion. They didn't
22 know what was the military and what was the civilian
24 Q. When was this crystallised so that people
25 knew precisely what was the competence of the civilian
1 and what was the competence of the military component?
2 A. When the HZ HB government was established,
3 the civilian HVO and the military part of the HVO
4 started being separated, because the military part then
5 established its main headquarters, it was led by
6 Mr. Milivoje Petkovic, and the civilian part was led by
7 Mr. Prlic. They had its departments, and one of them
8 was for national defence; it had its own minister. So
9 they had ministries which worked and instructed the
10 civilian authorities on what to do.
11 Q. So your civilian HVO government in Busovaca
12 in the latter part of 1992 relied on this central
13 government of the HVO in Mostar; is that correct?
14 A. Yes, exactly.
15 Q. I assume, then, that in this period, that is,
16 the latter part of 1992, the military and the civilian
17 police were separated, that is, their combatants, the
18 two police forces in Busovaca?
19 A. Yes. The head of the civilian police was
20 appointed and the military police had its own
21 combatants and its own commander, so the civilian and
22 military police were separated.
23 Q. We can move on to paragraph 24.
24 Mr. Maric, who was appointed the head of the
25 civilian government in Busovaca?
1 A. As far as I remember, it was Franjo Kristo.
2 Q. I think we have a misunderstanding. I'm
3 talking about the first HVO government head in
4 Busovaca, not the civilian police.
5 A. The first civilian HVO administration
6 president was Mr. Florijan Glavocevic. And I was
7 appointed as an acting president of the HVO on 1st
8 August 1992.
9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]
10 Mr. Naumovski, I think we should try to move on more
11 speedily. I must ask, if Mr. Nice does not have any
12 objections on various paragraphs, perhaps you could be
13 more leading, provided there are no objections to that,
14 in order to speed matters up.
15 Mr. Nice, are there some paragraphs on which
16 you would not be objecting if the witness were led?
17 MR. NICE: I think it's unlikely that there
18 are any whole paragraphs that are not paragraphs where
19 matters should be dealt with carefully, because this is
20 a very central and wide-ranging proof, or offer of
21 proof, as it's called. But if there's -- well, if
22 Mr. Naumovski is a little more leading from time to
23 time, I'll stand up and object when I think that we've
24 gone too far. Would that help? It's a little
25 difficult. The paragraphs are far too packed, really,
1 to say, of any paragraph, it can all be led.
2 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Very well.
3 Thank you.
4 Right. So we shall ask you to do that. As
5 you know, we must remember the time. We have one hour
6 yet, so will you try to be as concise as possible and
7 to lead your witness when a paragraph allows you to do
8 so, evidently under the control of the Court.
9 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,
10 Your Honours. I didn't want to do this in order to
11 avoid the objections from the Bench opposite, but I
12 will now try to do so that we can speed things up.
13 Q. Mr. Maric, you sketched for us how the
14 authority was set up in Busovaca, how you reorganised
15 the administration. And can you tell me whether the
16 civilian HVO or administration which was established
17 and which operated in Busovaca, did it discriminate the
18 Muslim citizens of Busovaca, that is, in comparison to
19 the civilian administration, before the time when the
20 HVO took over?
21 A. No. Out of seven local departments, or
22 ministries, three went to the Bosniak Muslims.
23 Q. So did the same people who worked in the old
24 municipal government continue to work in the new
25 government after the HVO took over?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Can you please tell the Trial Chamber whether
3 any employee or head of department in this newly
4 established government had to sign any oath of loyalty
5 or any other kind of oath to anyone?
6 A. No one ever had to sign any oath of loyalty.
7 Q. Was this introduced as a new kind of feature?
8 A. No, it was not.
9 Q. No verbal or written statement of loyalty was
10 ever introduced?
11 A. I never told anyone to sign any statement,
12 because I considered every citizen of Busovaca equal.
13 Anyone who lived in Busovaca municipality, I wanted him
14 to be able to have all the rights that he needed to
16 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]
17 Mr. Naumovski, will you ask Mr. Maric if the municipal
18 staff of whatever ethnic origin were all paid in the
19 same way.
20 A. Yes. Everybody was being paid a salary
21 according to the scales that were established.
22 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Perhaps just one additional question. There
24 was a classification of different jobs, and these job
25 were all classified and it had --
1 A. Yes. Every job had its own description. It
2 has its -- and it was made part of the scales, and
3 everybody received salary according to the scale.
4 Q. In this reorganisation of government, was
5 anyone dismissed out of all those who were employed in
6 the previous administration?
7 A. Nobody in the municipal government was
9 Q. And were any positions cancelled?
10 A. No. All employees who worked in the
11 municipal government continued to work in their jobs.
12 Q. I have a specific name. What happened to
13 Mr. Asim Sunulapasic's position? Could he stay with
14 the government? He was the president of the former
15 government. What happened to him?
16 A. The president of the HVO government had the
17 executive power, and according to the organisation,
18 according to the old system, that was the position that
19 was held by the president of the executive board, so
20 that Mr. Sunulapasic was no longer an official, but he
21 was allowed to stay. He was a specialist, an expert in
22 economic affairs, and he was asked to stay. But he
23 decided to go to Vatrostalna, where he had been, and I
24 was with the Sumarija.
25 Q. You told a while ago that there was no
1 discrimination against Muslims, and you agree with me
2 that there are numerous examples to show that the
3 Muslims took part in decision-making and in political
4 life of the town and municipality of Busovaca, even
5 after May 1992; is that so?
6 A. Absolutely.
7 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
8 so far the Defence has not produced too many exhibits.
9 However, Mr. Maric personally signed quite a number of
10 documents, and I should like Mr. Maric to be shown
11 these documents so that he could confirm them. And we
12 may also touch upon some of them briefly. Ninety per
13 cent of the documents that we wish to produce were
14 signed by Mr. Maric and he was their author. We
15 already handed over these documents to the registry, so
16 perhaps we could go through them document by document.
17 I believe that would be the speedier way to do that.
18 These are, by and large, very short
19 documents, so could we have English versions on the
20 ELMO and Croat versions shown to the witness. We won't
21 spend too much time on these documents.
22 THE REGISTRAR: The document will be number
24 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Maric, this is an introductory
1 document to facilitate our work. This document is of
2 the 16th of July, 1992. It was signed by the
3 then-president of the HVO, of the Busovaca
4 municipality, Mr. Glavocevic. In a sentence, this
5 document speaks for itself?
6 A. Yes. One sees that it is ordered that the
7 trading company Tisovac, for private bakery Orman,
8 owned by a Muslim from Kacuni, be issued two tonnes of
9 flour, which of course had to be paid at the valid
11 Q. Very well. So this is an administrative act,
12 I'd call it. It is an administrative act. It has its
13 number, the date, and so on and so forth. However,
14 some of these papers are entitled "order," some are a
15 so-called decree or certificate, so could that be this
16 wandering around, this uncertainty in the early days,
17 as you put it?
18 A. Yes, quite.
19 Q. So when it says "order," it doesn't mean a
20 military order, does it?
21 A. No, it doesn't.
22 Q. Very well. Thank you.
23 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] So we can
24 move on to the second document.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Document D242/1.
1 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Mr. Maric, you, I mean Croats and Muslims,
3 cooperated in matters of the school curriculum and the
4 beginning of the school year 1992/1993. From what I
5 can see, and from what I read in this document, the
6 municipal government in Busovaca also cooperated with
7 schools in Kacuni and all other schools in the
8 municipality. This document is of the 31st of July,
10 In a sentence, you hereby order that the
11 elementary school First of May in Kacuni be approved
13 A. Yes. We cooperated, and all schools in the
14 municipality of Busovaca were treated equally and
15 received money to pay salaries to all the employees,
16 regardless of whether they were Croats, Bosniak
17 Muslims, Serbs, or Montenegrins. All those who were
18 employed were receiving salaries that were due them.
19 Q. When you say the First of May, that is what
20 the school was called, isn't it?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And tell us, in the territory of the
23 municipality of Busovaca, Muslims and Croats account
24 for 90-something per cent of the population. Hadn't
25 you agreed with the Muslim population that the subject
1 of literature should cover, should encompass, only
2 Muslim and Croat authors rather than only Serb as well,
3 as in the former state; was that so?
4 A. Yes, indeed. But if I may, if Your Honours
5 allow me, I should like to simply add that in Busovaca,
6 inhabited mostly by Croats and Bosniaks, who lived and
7 worked in the territory of the municipality of
8 Busovaca, they were taught by -- they were provided
9 instruction mostly by Montenegrins; that is, mostly
10 teachers -- the teachers were Montenegrins and Serbs,
11 and we learnt more about Serb authors than about Croat
12 and Bosniak authors.
13 Q. Excuse me, Mr. Maric. We do not really have
14 to waste the energy of the Court with such detail. I
15 believe the Court has already heard a great deal about
16 this, so we can move on. But since we are discussing
17 literature, did you also have a flexible school policy
18 regarding the curriculum and about subjects such as
19 geography and history?
20 A. Yes, indeed. Everything that expressed
21 history and geography, we agreed that each -- that
22 everyone, in his own language, should instruct his own
23 children in the way that he prefers, that he deems
24 better, in a democratic way.
25 Q. And tell us, please: As for the name of the
1 language, did the Croat and the Muslim side agree about
3 A. Yes. The Croats spoke Croatian, and they in
4 the beginning called it the mother tongue. Because, as
5 you know, under the old system it was Serbo-Croatian,
6 the language of Bosnia and Hercegovina, that is, Croat
7 or Serbian, so that they -- and history proved that.
8 In the plebiscite of 1993, they decided that their
9 language should be called Bosnian, or rather Bosniak,
10 as they prefer it.
11 Q. And to round off this set of questions about
12 education, you had also reached an understanding with
13 Muslims in the territory of the municipality of
14 Busovaca to use the school forms which was more to the
15 liking of either group; that is, the Muslims could use
16 forms which they preferred and Croats could use theirs?
17 A. Yes. Everybody had the right to use the
18 forms which they preferred, and they could print the
19 forms in the language they preferred. Nobody forced
20 anything upon anyone, because that was the agreement
21 which was abided by.
22 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 We can move on with documents. Can we have the third
24 document, please.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Document D243/1.
1 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Mr. Maric, I forgot, while we were looking at
3 the second document, and again I forgot to ask you.
4 Will you please confirm: You are the author of these
5 documents? I forgot to ask you about that, the
6 previous one and this one.
7 A. Yes, indeed, this is my signature, my
9 Q. This document is dated the 6th of August,
10 1992, and from what I gather from this, you were still
11 part of the payment system in your region, because you
12 write to the public auditing office in Zenica; however,
13 its branch in Busovaca. What was the purpose of this
15 A. Let me just explain. Busovaca was at the
16 crossroads. Just to remind the Court, under the
17 previous administrative subdivision it was under the
18 influence of Zenica; rather, it was part of the Zenica
19 region, so that the payments -- the then public
20 auditing service, as it was called then, the territory
21 of Busovaca was also under its jurisdiction. And in
22 the document that you have before you, I address it to
23 the payment service in Zenica, requesting the printing
24 of the coupons, of the notes which were to be used as
25 legal tender in the municipality of Busovaca. Because
1 at that time, in addition to these coupons, we also had
2 a krona, or rather the then Croatian dinar in
3 circulation, and subsequently krona and German mark, so
4 that all these currencies were in circulation both in
5 the territory of the municipality of Busovaca and
7 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Can we move on to the next document.
9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]
10 Mr. Naumovski, do all these documents bear on the same
11 issue? Do they all bear on the same question, that is,
12 the conduct of the municipal authorities, the
13 management of their affairs in an equitable manner? Is
14 that it?
15 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Indeed.
16 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Do you have
17 many of them?
18 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Yes, indeed.
19 And also the treatment of the Muslim side. Yes, they
20 are all identical.
21 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] How many
22 more documents of this kind do you still have?
23 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Well, at
24 least a dozen or so in this set.
25 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Listen, I
1 think you could move on faster because we have grasped
2 what it is all about. I really think you should
3 present all these documents as one and then ask a
4 general question covering all these documents. The
5 witness can identify them. I think we are spending too
6 much time going through these documents individually,
7 so that I think it is better if you have sets of
8 documents, to show them to the witness all as one
9 document and try to move on faster. I believe we have
10 already grasped what it is about.
11 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Yes, I shall
12 be very happy to abide by the suggestion of Your
13 Honour, but the documents are not identical as regards
14 the areas, the walk of life. We have referred to
15 education which is one subject, and then we have
16 finance --
17 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes,
18 we understand that, but it is the same issue. So I
19 think you should present all these documents as a set,
20 at one and the same time. We understand what you are
21 talking about, the way in which the municipality was
22 administered, was managed. I do not think we really
23 need to spend too much time on this because we are not
24 here to analyse the municipal administration at the
25 time and go into every detail of it.
1 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Yes, I
2 understand, Your Honour, but could you please tell us,
3 in which way should we proceed? Should they all be
4 marked with one number and then have only subnumbers,
5 slash something? I don't know how technical we need to
6 do it. Perhaps the registrar could help us. How
7 should we mark them?
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] I think they
10 can have separate numbers. There is no problem with
11 that. They can still have separate numbers. Yes.
12 Needless to say, the Prosecutor will be entitled to go
13 back to these documents in the course of
14 cross-examination, to go back to all these documents.
15 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Yes. We
16 shall try to spend as little time as possible.
17 Can the witness be shown the next document,
18 please. Oh, we already have the next document.
19 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Could the
20 registrar then please give the whole set of documents
21 to the witness, and then have them introduced. You
22 have the series of documents. Will you please give the
23 whole batch to the witness and then they will be marked
24 as they are produced.
25 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Can we have
1 the number for this first document, and just a very
2 short question.
3 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Wait,
4 Mr. Naumovski. We must ask the registrar to prepare
5 all the remaining documents. They will be numbered
6 immediately and then they will be adduced in a batch.
7 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Yes, Your
9 Your Honours, if I may take the liberty to
10 suggest, perhaps we could make the break now and then I
11 could have it ready with the registrar before we resume
12 in the afternoon. I think we have ten minutes before
13 the break, so perhaps we could break off now. I do
14 apologise. Perhaps I'm taking too much liberty but
15 perhaps it might speed matters up.
16 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] No. I would
17 rather that we continue until 1.00. We shall have
18 these all numbered, and I think we can finish this
19 question. We are still at paragraph 26. Could we
20 please move on to paragraph 27.
21 Very well. Could you now give us the number
22 of these documents.
23 THE REGISTRAR: The documents will be
24 numbered D241/1 to D252/1.
25 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Mr. Maric, I presume you understand that
2 every document has now its number, and do not bother
3 about that. Just a sentence in this first document.
4 You are sending this letter to a company
5 called Nigma in Busovaca. Will you agree with me that
6 it transpires from it that every employee, in agreement
7 with a decision of the 30th of April, 1992, employed in
8 the territory of the municipality of Busovaca and
9 nevertheless is engaged in the HVO or TO is entitled to
10 his salary. Is that so?
11 A. Yes, it is.
12 Q. So regardless of which armed formation he
13 belongs to.
14 A. Yes, regardless of whether he is a member of
15 the HVO or the TO.
16 Q. Very well. Thank you. We will move on to
17 the next document, which is a document of the 14th of
18 August, 1993.
19 This is your decision to set up municipal
20 departments in the municipality of Busovaca.
21 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Excuse me.
22 Registrar, could we have copies? Could the Judges have
23 copies of the documents, please?
24 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]
25 Q. So it now lists those areas. Will you look
1 at Article 3, please. This was the task of local
2 boards. Could you tell us what that task was?
3 A. The task of --
4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Wait,
5 Mr. Naumovski.
6 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
7 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] I think it
8 would be better to have these documents on the ELMO, to
9 change these documents on the ELMO. As we go through
10 them, the witness has the documents before him, but can
11 we also go through them on the ELMO? As we move
12 through them, can we also move them on the ELMO?
13 Mr. Naumovski.
14 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] The
15 registrar, we marked it as number 5. It is a document
16 bearing our number 5. Or is it perhaps on the ELMO
17 already? Yes, that's the document. Item 3 or Article
19 Q. Mr. Maric, could it please be moved on the
20 ELMO so we can see Article 3.
21 A. Well, the task of local boards was to
22 organise social and economic life on the territory of
23 the area; that is, for every part of the municipality,
24 such branches had to be established.
25 Q. This is another one of your documents. You
1 signed this document.
2 A. Yes, I did. This is my document. Only I
3 have to say that it was signed by my secretary, on my
4 behalf, but with my authorisation.
5 Q. The next document, and we see it on the ELMO,
6 this is a press release and you wrote it on the 19th of
7 August, 1992. Two words only. What were the
8 circumstances which resulted in this document
9 prohibiting the disturbance of citizens by gunfire,
10 prohibiting poaching, and so on and so forth?
11 A. I can say here that because there were
12 already some problems with armament already arriving in
13 the territory of the municipality of Busovaca, that
14 type of peace we had in Busovaca was getting worse.
15 There were poachers and thefts, and I therefore issued
16 a press release prohibiting all the unnecessary
17 activities which could disturb people, because we know
18 how an unnecessary shot can upset somebody, let alone
19 all these things that were happening.
20 Q. Very well. Thank you. This document is of
21 the 26th of January [as interpreted], 1992, and it is
22 another document testifying to the relations between
23 Croats and Muslims at the time. This is your document,
24 addressed to the Assistant Minister of National Defence
25 in Zenica District, and in it you apply for some
1 funds. Now, it shows what was the relationship between
2 these formal bodies of authority in Bosnia-Herzegovina
3 and the HVO.
4 A. Quite so.
5 Q. Will you please look at the second paragraph
6 which, to my mind, is the most telling.
7 A. Indeed. Here I ask that equal treatment be
8 accorded to the problem of supply of both the Croat
9 Defence Council and the Territorial Defence, because
10 the HVO had received barely anything -- hardly anything
11 from the central government in Sarajevo, that is, than
12 Zenica district; so that I requested that it be treated
13 equally and to supply in an equal manner all the
14 participants, all the peoples, in Busovaca.
15 Q. There seems to be a mistake in the
16 interpretation. The document is of the 26th of August,
18 A. Yes, it is. The 26th of August.
19 Q. This document again testifies about the
20 relations not only between Muslims and Croats but also
21 others. The document is of the 1st of September,
22 1992. You signed it and hereby you authorise, you give
23 your consent for, the operation of the Serb Orthodox
24 Charitable Society of Dobrotvor?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you. Next document. This is dated the
2 10th of September, 1992. You signed it, and here you
3 took a decision. These two gentlemen, Abdul Selim
4 Teskeridzic and Dzevad Pripoljac, are designated for a
5 particular job, aren't they?
6 A. Yes, indeed. Mr. Teskeridzic is a
7 construction engineer; he worked in the municipality of
8 Busovaca. Mr. Pripoljac was a civil engineer, a
9 technician; he also worked in the municipality of
10 Busovaca. And you can see what they were tasked to
12 Q. Yes, we do not have to go into that. Just a
13 word. They are both Muslims, aren't they?
14 A. Yes, indeed. What I want to say is that they
15 both were working.
16 Q. Yes. Next, please. Mr. Maric, this document
17 is one of the 17th of September, 1992. You signed it,
18 and it has the format of a conclusion. Now, items 1
19 and 2, what do they mean?
20 A. Basically they mean that documents may be
21 issued at the request of citizens applying for them,
22 which were about birth, marriages; that they may be
23 issued these forms with their own heading, that is,
24 either Croat Community of Herceg-Bosna or only
1 Q. So these are birth certificates, death
2 certificates, school certificates, so on and so forth.
3 A. Yes. Yes, all those documents which are to
4 be issued.
5 Q. Item 2, in point of fact, speaks about the
6 responsibility of workers concerned if they failed to
7 comply with what it says in item 1.
8 A. Yes.
9 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
10 if you wish, we can go on, but it seems to me that the
11 time has come for our usual break. But it is, of
12 course, up to you.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the Judge,
15 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] How many
16 more of these documents do you still have,
17 Mr. Naumovski?
18 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I'm not
19 getting the interpretation. I didn't understand your
21 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] How many
22 more of these documents do you still have,
23 Mr. Naumovski?
24 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Eleven in
25 this particular set.
1 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Then we
2 shall make our break now and we shall resume after one
3 hour and 40 minutes.
4 I will have to ask you to speed up, to
5 expedite the browsing of these documents, because they
6 all bear on the same issue. We are really not here to
7 examine in detail how the municipality of Busovaca was
9 Thank you very much. The session is
11 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.05 p.m.
1 --- On resuming at 2.44 p.m.
2 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Just a
3 second, Mr. Naumovski. I would like to give the
4 registry the floor now. Could we hear from the
5 registry all the numbers so that we can very precisely
7 THE REGISTRAR: [Microphone not activated] --
8 admitted by the Defence will be numbered D241/1 to
10 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 I think that you all have these documents and that the
12 numbers were correctly assigned.
13 So Mr. Naumovski, I count now on your
14 cooperation so that we go straight to the core of the
15 matter. I know that these matters are important and
16 these documents are important for the Defence, so I'm
17 not going to try and prevent you to submit them to the
18 witness, but having said that, I would like you to go
19 straight to the most important topic and try to avoid
20 any -- being too long on anything. Thank you.
21 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
22 I believe that we really will not spend a lot of time
23 on it. We will run through these documents very
24 quickly, the author of which was Mr. Maric.
25 Q. And Mr. Maric, to get immediately to the
1 point, the next document is a document dated 24
2 September 1992, D251/1, a decision signed by you
3 regarding setting up of joint patrols to prevent
4 unauthorised logging, and it was to be equally composed
5 of the HVO and the TO.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And this is another document that testifies
8 to the cooperation even when it's about logging?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 Next document, please, D252/1, another
12 decision, dated 15 October 1992. This is when the
13 crime rate started increasing, and you're directing the
14 civilian police and telling them what their tasks were?
15 A. Yes. We needed to restore law and order in
16 the area, so the police imposed compulsory business
17 hours to restaurants and bars, and were fining those
18 who were in breach of those.
19 Q. Next document, please, 253/1. And another
20 decision, not signed by you, but you recognise it as
21 your own. You can see just part of the seal. It has
22 to do with the beginning of the school year. This is
23 the 1992/1993 school year.
24 A. Yes. I, in fact, issued an order that the
25 military formation of the ABiH in the village of Putis
1 is ordered to vacate the premises in the regional
2 elementary school so that the school children could
3 start using the building.
4 Q. So it had to do with the beginning of the
5 school year?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Next document, 254/1, a longer document,
8 dated 2 November 1992. This is November 2nd. A
9 decision on establishing municipal commission for
10 receiving, housing and taking care of displaced persons
11 and refugees of Busovaca.
12 A. Yes. Due to the operations of JNA in the
13 territory of and the army of Republika Srpska, caused
14 an influx of refugees, and I decided to set up a
15 commission which would be dealing with all the problems
16 relating to the displaced persons and refugees.
17 Q. Just one question. On the list of people who
18 were appointed as members of this commission, you see
19 that this was a joint commission?
20 A. Yes. It was a mixed commission, composed of
21 both ethnic Croats and Bosnian Muslims.
22 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
23 you can see that under 5, 6, 7, 8, and 13, these
24 members are Muslim.
25 A. Yes. I can name them name by name.
1 Q. You don't have to. Let's go to the next
2 document, 255/1, a document dated 4 November 1992 in
3 which you designate a replacement for Mrs. Alima Besic,
4 the head of the lands -- of the office of land survey
5 and property rights of Busovaca, because of her sick
7 A. Yes. And Mr. Abdul Selim Teskeridzic
8 replaced her and was appointed as acting head of the
10 Q. They are both Muslims?
11 A. Yes, they are both Muslims, and we needed to
12 find a Muslim to replace a Muslim head of the office.
13 Q. Next document, 256/1, also dated 4 November
14 1992, that is, end of 1992. Again, appointments.
15 Under 3, clerk Zuhra Rizvic is appointed clerk for
16 statistical data in the fields of agriculture, water
17 resources, and hunting. And what was her ethnic
19 A. She was also an ethnic Muslim.
20 Q. Next document, 257/1, dated 12 November,
21 1992. This is your order, Mr. Maric, in which you
22 request of the commanders of the military police of the
23 HVO, as well as the ABiH military police and the
24 forestry administration, to step up their patrols.
25 A. Yes. The unauthorised logging continued and
1 increased so I had to issue such an order to bring this
2 to an end.
3 Q. So these were joint patrols in the middle of
4 November 1992.
5 A. Yes. Both Muslims and Croats operated in
6 concert in the territory of Busovaca municipality.
7 Q. Next document, 258/1, another document you
8 compiled, dated 27 November 1992. A working body was
9 established. Could you tell us, what was this
10 commission and who were the members?
11 A. It was a joint commission, mixed
12 composition. Marko Pezer, Nezir Huseinspahic, and
13 Abdul Selim Teskeridzic, the last two were ethnic
14 Muslims, they were to tackle the problem of the town
15 dump. This problem we still actually have to date. It
16 has not been resolved.
17 Q. Sir, you mentioned that these two gentlemen
18 were Muslims. We have heard in this case that some
19 Muslims who were still employed with the municipal
20 government were there only formally but that they
21 really did not come to work.
22 A. No. These gentlemen came to work; I can
23 confirm that, and also they themselves can confirm
24 this. Mr. Nezir Huseinspahic is still with us.
25 Q. Next document, 259/1, from the very end of
1 1992. This is 22 December 1992. Could you please tell
2 us, what kind of a decision was this?
3 A. This is a one-time decision for the financial
4 aid to the families of killed soldiers of the HVO and
5 ABiH in the amount of 100 German marks per family, and
6 a list was provided of those who were killed. Also, in
7 addition, 400 kilogrammes of flour was to be
8 distributed, 25 kilogrammes per family.
9 This was as relief to the victims of war
10 because the war had already spread all through the
11 municipality of Jajce, and the units were involved in
12 the defence of the municipalities of Travnik and
14 Q. Unfortunately we do not have the list which
15 you mentioned, but we can agree that the HVO, the local
16 Busovaca HVO government, in the end of December 1992,
17 allocated financial aid to families of both HVO and
18 ABiH soldiers who were killed in action.
19 A. Yes, that is exactly what I mentioned. There
20 was no discrimination. The families of soldiers from
21 both formations who were killed were provided this
23 Q. Next document, D260/1. You did not sign it,
24 but I would just like you to tell us about this company
25 called Niskogradnja. They had a branch in Busovaca.
1 A. Yes. Mr. Senad Ekmedzic was its manager, a
2 Muslim. You see a receipt. The managers provided aid
3 to their assistants, to their units, including
4 cigarettes and other items. You can see that any
5 manager in the municipality, regardless of whether he
6 was an ethnic Croat or Muslim, could give such aid to
7 different troops.
8 Q. This assistance was given to the 333rd
9 Mountain Brigade?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. The last one in this batch is 261/1. This is
12 an invitation to a meeting, which you sent out on
13 January 8, 1993.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Go ahead.
16 A. Yes. We had problems with the Sumarija
17 Busovaca company due to the war conditions. I
18 organised a meeting in order to try to resolve these
19 problems in Sumarija Busovaca. I invited
20 representatives of both the Croats and Muslims so that
21 we could tackle these problems.
22 Q. You called both political and military
24 A. Yes, because we had a serious problem there.
25 Q. We can move right ahead, Mr. Maric; that is,
1 go back to the outline --
2 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Excuse me,
3 Mr. Naumovski, but once these documents are going to be
4 submitted to the witness -- we see that these
5 documents, for the most part, concern 1992 and they
6 deal with cooperation between Croats and Muslims in the
7 municipality of Busovaca.
8 Mr. Maric, has this cooperation continued in
9 1993? Because the last document that we were presented
10 with was dated the 8th of January, 1993. Has the
11 cooperation continued? Please go on.
12 A. The cooperation continued until 21 January
13 1993, when the situation in the Busovaca municipality
14 deteriorated after the checkpoint at Kacuni incident.
15 We attempted to resolve this problem in a peaceful,
16 democratic way. However, on the 24th of January, 1993,
17 in the afternoon, two HVO policemen were killed,
18 Messrs. Ivica Petrovic and a taxi driver named
19 Bogdanovic from Kiseljak. On that day the situation
20 deteriorated, and on the 25th of January, 1993, at 5.30
21 a.m., the aggression of the Muslim forces began in the
22 territory of Busovaca municipality, and that's when the
23 situation deteriorated.
24 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Very well,
25 Mr. Maric. What happened with the administration of
1 your municipality? Because I see that you remained
2 president up until the spring of 1994. Did you
3 continue to administer your municipality? What was
4 your relations with the Muslims at that time?
5 A. As a representative and the president of the
6 Croatian Defence Council, I attempted to establish
7 contacts with the Bosniak side. However, during 1993
8 these contacts started being reestablished in February
9 so that we continued to have exchanges in 1993. From
10 February until the 15th of April, 1993, we continued to
11 try to talk and agree that no more incidents be
12 created, because we also signed a ceasefire in
14 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you,
15 Mr. Naumovski.
16 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,
17 Your Honour.
18 Q. We shall reach these subjects that you just
19 mentioned in no time. But we've already broached some
20 of these subjects in paragraphs 27, 28, and 29, so
21 perhaps there's no need to go back to those.
22 Again, just one thing. Is it true that you
23 Croats changed the street names unilaterally?
24 A. We never changed street names unilaterally.
25 In the town of Busovaca it was changed jointly, so as a
1 street was called after a priest and another street was
2 named after an Islamic leader in Busovaca.
3 Q. When you say jointly, you're referring to
4 1991, after the elections.
5 A. Yes, after the elections in 1991.
6 Q. This Court has already had ample opportunity
7 to hear about the arrival of refugees, so on and so
8 forth. So perhaps just a figure. In 1992, how many
9 Serbs, in your view, left Central Bosnia and passed
10 through Busovaca, towards the territory held by the
11 army of Bosnian Serbs?
12 A. Your Honours, it is difficult to speak about
13 all those facts if one looks at what was happening in
14 the territories of Bosnia-Herzegovina. But if I
15 look -- if I cast my eye and my mind back to the
16 territories of the municipalities of Travnik, Busovaca,
17 Zenica, 35.000 -- 30.000, at least, to 35.000 Serbs
18 left. Perhaps even more. Those were column after
19 column. That was a horrible sight, and only a man who
20 saw that can speak about it.
21 Q. You can look at the next document, D262/1.
22 A. Yes, but I don't have it.
23 Q. The usher will help you.
24 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] We have all
25 these numbers here, and will you please distribute
1 them, yes, to avoid any misunderstanding.
2 THE REGISTRAR: The following documents will
3 be numbered D262/1 to D274/1.
4 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Mr. Maric, again a document of yours, of 11th
6 November 1992. Only Article 1, in one sentence, for
7 the Court. Apparently there were some individuals,
8 residents of Busovaca, who were requesting to leave; is
9 that so?
10 A. Yes. As they were leaving the territories or
11 municipalities, the Serbs of ethnic origin, so they
12 asked to leave the territory of the municipality of
13 Busovaca. And on the 11th of November, 1992, I issued
14 them with this document so that they could leave.
15 Q. So these are people who wanted to leave of
16 their own free will, is it?
17 A. Of course. We never tried to chase anyone
18 away from the territory of the municipality of
20 Q. Tell us, please: Is there any truth in the
21 claim that Mr. Kordic, and then the HVO, and I suppose
22 you, as the president of the government, that you
23 charged every family, that is, every person of Serb
24 origin who went through Busovaca in the direction of
25 the territory held by the Bosnian -- by the army of
1 Bosnian Serbs?
2 A. No, we did not charge anyone. We did not
3 charge anything, regardless of what ethnicity the
4 person leaving the territory of Busovaca belonged to.
5 Q. Very well. We already heard about that from
6 the previous witness, so there is no need to broaden
7 the subject.
8 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] We are moving
9 to the next paragraph, Your Honours.
10 Q. Mr. Maric, the Court has already heard that
11 the tension began to mount in Busovaca with the arrival
12 of refugees and displaced from Jajce in December 1992.
13 What did it mean for your municipality? Was it a
14 negligible pressure or was it a major pressure?
15 A. You need to know that into the territory of
16 Busovaca a large number of displaced persons began to
17 arrive. With the arrival of expelled Croats and
18 Bosniaks from the territories of Jajce, the territories
19 then of the Travnik municipality, Kotor Varos, so that
20 we issued an order, because those who had lost their
21 flights were trying at all costs to find another
22 flight, and we tried to prevent that. We prohibited
23 any unlawful entry to flights. So this is this
24 document issued to the military and civilian police to
25 prevent such acts so as -- with a view to avoiding some
1 undesirable circumstances.
2 Q. You're referring to document D263/1?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Very well. Tell us, please: I suppose that
5 the Busovaca HVO government was trying to alleviate
6 those tensions in Busovaca, together with Muslim
7 authorities, and there was a meeting between
8 businessmen of Muslim and Croat origin in January to
9 see if they could organise themselves somehow so as to
10 try to ensure life in that area more or less.
11 A. Yes. We had a meeting to see what we could
12 do to receive those poor displaced people arriving from
13 the northern territories of Bosnia and Herzegovina,
14 from where they had been driven away by Serbs, by the
15 Yugoslav and the Serb army, and we tried to accommodate
16 them in a humane, in a manner worthy of man. Because
17 Busovaca, before the war, Busovaca was a tourist resort
18 and there were over 2.000 summer cottages. So we tried
19 to put them up in those cottages so they could live
20 life worthy of human beings, if anything could be
21 called that at that time.
22 Q. Perhaps the time is now to look at the second
23 set of documents, which refers to that period of time
24 when a large number of refugees arrived in the
25 territory of the municipality of Busovaca in November
1 1992. D264/1, and this is the order of the 19th of
2 November, 1992, you are ordering the civil defence and
3 the chief of the department for national defence to put
4 all units on full alert.
5 A. Well, you can see from the date itself, the
6 19th of November, the units of the Croat Defence
7 Council and BH army, which had been defending Jajce,
8 had to pull out of the town of Jajce so that all the
9 people from the territory of the municipality of Jajce
10 headed for Busovaca; not only Jajce, but also from
11 Kotor Varos, Jajce, and Dobrovici. And they headed for
12 Busovaca, Vitez, and all the other areas in the Lasva
13 Valley. And we had to prepare everything we could to
14 prepare for themselves everything that they needed so
15 that they could go on with their lives.
16 Q. As you signed the previous document -- not
17 this one, but the one before this one -- and this one,
18 so was it a military order or was it an order of the
19 mayor of the municipality?
20 A. This was my order, the order, that is, of the
21 civilian mayor of the municipality, because I had to
22 issue such an order to find some roof, some
23 accommodation, for every one of those wretched, of
24 those miserable, of those unfortunate people at that
1 Q. So this is not a military order?
2 A. No, this is not a military order; it is my
3 order, issued by me personally.
4 Q. Mr. Maric, you must have been, in your
5 capacity, been involved in plans for the defence of
6 Jajce, defended jointly by the HVO and the army of
7 Bosnia and Herzegovina.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Have you ever heard, as it is claimed in this
10 case, that Jajce was handed over, that it fell as a
11 result of some understanding between the HVO and the
12 army of Bosnian Serbs?
13 A. I have never heard anything of this sort. I
14 cannot remember exactly, but I know that very many
15 soldiers from Busovaca, the defenders of Jajce, died,
16 and those victims who fell, nobody ever signed such an
17 agreement, nor can I say -- no. I can say that no
18 agreement was ever signed about this.
19 Q. The document is now 265/1, another order of
20 yours that you signed on the 19th of November, 1992,
21 and in Article 1 the curfew is imposed for the night
22 hours in the territory of the municipality of
23 Busovaca. Item 2 says that during the curfew only the
24 patrols of the police station of Busovaca, 1, can move
25 in the territory and municipality; that 2, the patrols
1 of HVO, the military police; and 3, the BH army units
2 also allowed to move. Is that so?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, item 4, just a detail. I see that you
5 really thought about every detail very carefully and
6 you said, "Until the time of morning prayer, the mosque
7 is changed. The police patrols shall allow worshippers
8 to attend prayer between ..." so-and-so.
9 A. Quite so. We went out of our way not to
10 deprive the Muslims from attending the morning prayer,
11 which is very important for them, and they could attend
12 the Sabah Namaz service every morning.
13 Q. And I see you also -- this was, or a copy of
14 this order, was also delivered to the Efendi Prolaz?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. Next document, 266/1, another order of yours
17 to the police station in Busovaca to ensure guards
18 around the clock.
19 A. Yes. This is a civilian order to ensure the
20 guarding of the municipal hall, the PTT office, the
21 health centre, that is, buildings of vital interest.
22 Q. So we can agree that all these measures that
23 you are taking go in step with the increase of the
24 crime rate that you felt began to mount in November
1 A. Yes. I need to say here that when the
2 expelled, when the displaced persons arrived from these
3 other territories, that at that time the situation
4 deteriorated. As for the law and order, or rather an
5 increase of the crime rate in the territory of the
6 municipality of Busovaca, because people lacked means
7 of livelihood and they were trying to somehow fend for
8 themselves in all other ways, and I tried to make some
9 law and order there as far as it was possible.
10 Q. The next document is also interesting because
11 it reflects the state of affairs. It's D267/1, of the
12 24th of November, 1992. You say that the police
13 station in Busovaca is told to control also schools and
14 to search pupils carrying firearms and arms.
15 A. Yes, indeed, because a very grave problem
16 arose at the time. We observed that even children had
17 some type of ammunition. They began to bring it to
18 school. And there was a boy even who brought a pistol
19 to the school, so that --
20 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Maric, I
21 think that you simply need to confirm the orders we are
22 speaking of, just by answering Mr. Naumovski's
23 question, without really giving us the details of each
24 particular order. Thank you.
25 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,
1 Your Honour.
2 Q. Mr. Maric, very briefly, to just go through
3 these few documents which remain. D268/1, this
4 document, if we look at its contents, could fall into
5 that first set of documents. It is dated 25th
6 November, 1992. And in your capacity as the acting
7 mayor of the municipality, that is, president of the
8 HVO government, you take the decision to allow --
9 entitling Mr. Edim Muminovic to an amount of 300 German
10 marks as damages after an explosive was planted at a
11 kiosk on 2nd November, 1992. This was one of the first
12 outlets which were damaged, and you decided to help the
13 man in some way?
14 A. Yes. I decided that the man should be
16 Q. And 269/1, this is your press release of the
17 8th of December, 1992, which bears on the meeting of
18 HVO representatives in Busovaca with a representative
19 of the Dutch -- UNPROFOR Dutch unit which was stationed
20 there, Mr. De Bur. This document is self-explanatory.
21 However, paragraph 3, the third passage, is
22 interesting. You insisted -- you urged Mr. De Bur to
23 ask through the commander of the UNPROFOR British
24 commander to meet with senior representatives of the
25 HVO and the BH army in order to define the routes and
1 manner of securing humanitarian aid transports and
2 avoid any possible misunderstanding. Evidently you
3 were beginning to have some misgivings about them at
4 the time?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Very well. We can move on to the next
7 document, 270/1. 14th December 1992. I do not think
8 we have to go through it. This is again control of the
9 pupils, once again an appeal to the police.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Thank you. D271/1 is a document of the 17th
12 of June, 1993. Item 2 says -- we don't have to go
13 through this document passage by passage, but it has to
14 do with refugees and displaced. But that a commission
15 was set up which allowed those inhabitants who wanted
16 to leave Busovaca and -- it says, I suppose this is
17 your signature down here. We do not have the whole
18 document. The end of the page is missing. Do you
19 remember this?
20 A. Yes, I remember. This is my document.
21 Q. So in item 3 you're asking the high commander
22 of HVO brigades in Busovaca to issue an order
23 forbidding soldiers to move refugees into anybody's
24 houses on their own initiative, and especially not into
25 Muslim houses?
1 A. Yes, quite so. This is my document.
2 Q. So this is an attempt of the civilian HVO
3 authority in Busovaca to protect the local population
4 to the maximum possible extent.
5 A. Quite so.
6 Q. Another document in this group, D272/1, of
7 the 21st of June, 1993. This document is
8 self-explanatory, but item 1 is important because in
9 item 1 of this decision, you prohibit the moving out of
10 Muslim families from their homes and the moving in of
11 refugees and displaced persons.
12 A. Yes. This is my document of the 21st of
13 June, 1993 in which the persons from -- that is,
14 persons displaced from Zenica tried to move into Muslim
15 houses in Busovaca, and I prohibited this.
16 Q. Thank you. We can move on. You also said
17 when Judge Bennouna asked you, you were asked until
18 when did the cooperation last, but it was as late as
19 the 22nd of January, 1993 that you were still
20 distributing food which you were receiving from
21 different humanitarian sources from outside the
22 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and which arrived in
23 Busovaca through the territory of the Republic of
25 A. Yes. It was some 30 tonnes of food and other
1 aid. Yes, we had obtained food from the Republic of
2 Croatia, and we then distributed it 50/50; that is,
3 half went to Croats and half went to Bosniaks/Muslims,
4 and the remaining Serbs there. So we distributed it
5 equitably and each group distributed it amongst their
6 own population. So that Muslims received 30 tonnes of
7 food on the eve of the conflict; that is, they received
8 it on a Friday and the conflict broke out on Monday.
9 Q. So it was on the eve of the conflict.
10 A. Yes, it was on the eve of the conflict.
11 Q. Shortly after this food distribution, you and
12 Niko Grubesic were invited by Mr. Husein Hadzimejlic to
13 the barracks of the BH army at Kacuni.
14 A. Yes. The BH army were quartered in Kacuni,
15 and we went there and we talked because we did not
16 expect -- we could not anticipate the incident which
17 then took place later.
18 Q. What did the barracks look like? Was it
19 already prepared to accommodate a large number of
21 A. Yes, it was organised so as to accommodate a
22 considerable number of soldiers.
23 Q. Mr. Maric, you communicated with
24 Mr. Hadzimejlic on various occasions. Do you recall
25 if, in late 1992 and early 1993, he told you something
1 about the possibility of controlling radical Muslim
2 soldiers who had arrived in Kacuni from somewhere?
3 A. I can say quite frankly that Mr. Hadzimejlic,
4 who is a wonderful man, who was brought up on religious
5 principles, he always communicated with me and did what
6 he could to ensure good terms, good relations between
7 Croats and Muslims. But with the arrival of displaced
8 persons, especially from Krajina, who were accommodated
9 in the territory of Kacuni and who were, as he put it
10 at times, somewhat bold, right before the conflict
11 broke out he said to me, "Mr. Maric, I can hardly give
12 them any order at all." That is, the situation was
13 very difficult and he simply couldn't keep them under
15 Q. But before that, and we are referring to
16 paragraph 34, in mid-January 1993, on the 15th, you had
17 a meeting with Dzemal Merdan.
18 A. Yes, I also had a meeting with Mr. Dzemal
19 Merdan, and an incident then took place in the
20 territory of Kacuni, when a transport -- when a truck
21 with a machine-gun mounted on it patrolled Busovaca and
22 it was stopped at Kacuni. They tried to capture, to
23 seize, this APC, and I asked them to release it, to
24 somehow bring down the tension in order to avoid an
1 Q. Very well. Thank you. Tell us, please,
2 prior to the 25th of January, 1993, when the conflict
3 broke out, that is, a few days before that, do you
4 perhaps recall any other incident at Kacuni?
5 A. Yes. There was sporadic gunfire from the
6 Muslim side. There was a quarrel, an altercation, in a
7 village near Kacuni with a predominantly Croat
8 population, and there a kind of a skirmish, I would
9 say, a kind of argument took place.
10 Q. Do you know about an incident when somebody
11 was stopped at Kacuni? In those days, before the 25th
12 of January.
13 A. On the 21st, I believe, of January, Mr. Ignac
14 Kostroman was stopped at the checkpoint at Kacuni and
15 Mr. Ignac Kostroman was threatened, as far as what I
16 know about the whole matter.
17 Q. Who is it that told you about that? Who
18 informed you about it?
19 A. I received the report from the chief of
21 Q. In the series of incidents, this was just an
22 additional event which did not improve anything. But
23 in those days, were some premises also damaged in the
24 town of Busovaca?
25 A. Unfortunately these acts of provocation from
1 the Bosnian side reflected on the Croats too who blew
2 up certain premises.
3 Q. Do you know any details about it or were you
4 informed about it as the president of the government,
5 that things like that happened?
6 A. Yes. I received reports from the police that
7 some restaurants and other business premises were blown
9 Q. In your outline you also mention that you had
10 some information about the killing of Mirsad Delija, a
11 citizen of Busovaca.
12 A. Yes. Unfortunately that also took place, and
13 this was unfortunately the first victim of these
15 Q. Again, you received the police report about
17 A. Yes, and then an investigation was ordered to
18 be launched.
19 Q. In your outline you already mentioned the 24
20 January incident, we can skip that, but we can move on
21 to January 25, 1993. You were at home in the village
22 of Podjele that day.
23 A. Yes. That day and until 1998, I continued to
24 live in Podjele. That day I was at home, and at 5.35
25 a.m. I was awakened by the shelling from the
1 direction -- and the shells were coming from the
2 direction of Merdani and hitting Busovaca. That is
3 when the actual attack started.
4 Then I went from my home to my uncle's home
5 and I spent the day in the shelter. I couldn't get out
6 because from the side of Strane, that is, to the north
7 of where I was, I was the target of snipers, so I could
8 not move and go to Busovaca. So I spent that day at
10 On the 26th, in the morning, early, I left
11 Podjele with my wife and two children and we moved to
12 the area of Ravne, which is about 2.5 kilometres south
13 of Busovaca, and I stayed there until June 1994, that
14 is, the end of the conflict.
15 Q. On 26 January, when you came to the outskirts
16 of Busovaca, I assume that you learned what had
17 happened the day before, that there was a conflict, and
18 you received the report of what had happened?
19 A. Yes, I received the report. There was
20 terrible fighting, that the town of Busovaca was
21 shelled from all sides, that there were casualties.
22 That day, together with Mr. Niko Grubesic, my secretary
23 tried to organise whatever we could to take care of the
24 wounded and others who suffered under the attack.
25 Q. You also heard whether, on that day, some
1 Muslims were arrested or captured in the town of
2 Busovaca, in the afternoon hours.
3 A. Yes, I also received a report that those who
4 were able-bodied were taken to Kaonik, to the prison,
5 for security. It was also reported to me that some
6 documents were found which showed that a neighbour --
7 according to which, some of them were supposed to kill
8 their fellow Croat neighbours, let's say, educated
10 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]
11 Mr. Naumovski, I would like to ask Mr. Maric, because
12 he said that he learned that the 100 Muslims were
13 arrested and taken to Kaonik, Mr. Maric, if you were in
14 charge of the HVO government of the municipality, how
15 come you were not informed about this decision?
16 A. I was in my village; that was at Kaonik. I
17 didn't have a phone line. The war raged on that whole
18 day. I was blocked in my house; I could not leave.
19 Until I arrived in Busovaca, I had no information about
20 what had happened.
21 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Who decided
22 to arrest those people, in your opinion?
23 A. In my view, it was the military, that is, the
24 military side of the HVO which was conducting the
25 operation at the time, so that this was done by the
1 military police.
2 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Didn't the
3 military police depend upon your authority, Mr. Maric?
4 A. It was under my authority until the beginning
5 of hostilities.
6 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]
8 Q. A detail, Mr. Maric, just to wrap up this
9 topic. If I understood you correctly, lists of Croats
10 who were to be eliminated were found with certain
12 A. Yes, that is exactly what I said. With the
13 Muslims who were with the Territorial Defence, we found
14 documents which testified to the fact that they were
15 tasked with killing Croats.
16 Q. Who had authority over Kaonik, your
17 government or the military side of the HVO?
18 A. The Kaonik prison was supposed to be under
19 civilian jurisdiction because it was set up for the
20 common criminals, the perpetrators of common crimes, so
21 to speak. But due to the war situation, it was
22 converted into a military prison because the civilian
23 authorities practically could not operate.
24 Q. So you're saying that the civilian
25 authorities stopped having jurisdiction over it.
1 A. Yes. You know that in times of war the
2 military takes over.
3 Q. I was just waiting for the interpretation.
4 Now, could you tell the Trial Chamber, you
5 had an opportunity to see statistics of those killed
6 and houses and property destroyed. Could you tell us,
7 how many Croats were killed in that conflict, the
8 January conflict?
9 A. I believe it was 50 to 58. There were five
10 women among them; I remember that well. Over 170
11 Croatian houses were destroyed in the areas of Kacuni,
12 the local commune of Kacuni, Oseliste, Gusti Grab, and
13 outlying areas towards Kiseljak. Obviously there were
14 Bosniak houses which were destroyed in the outlying
15 areas and in Busovaca town.
16 Q. In the outlying areas, you say that about 70
17 Muslim houses were damaged in the area controlled by
18 the HVO.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Another detail. Do you know how many Croats
21 were driven out of the territory controlled by the ABiH
22 to the territory controlled by you?
23 A. The area of Kacuni and the southern part
24 towards Zenica, that is, Putis, about 250 Croats were
25 expelled from that area.
1 Q. We will speed up to paragraph 39. After
2 January 1993 an agreement was signed, the hostilities
3 ceased, and you tried to organise everyday life between
4 February and April 1993; is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You had an agreement. This was one of the
7 conditions for the signing of the ceasefire agreement
8 after the January conflict: that all the trenches would
9 be covered by both sides.
10 A. Yes. There was an agreement to cover all
11 trenches in Busovaca municipality by both sides, by the
12 HVO and by the TO. However, unfortunately we filled in
13 ours but the Bosniaks kept on digging new ones.
14 Q. Do you also have information how many houses
15 owned by Croats were damaged in parts of Busovaca
16 patrolled by the ABiH during this period between
17 February and April 1993?
18 A. There were quite a few. I think around 180,
19 maybe over 180. I cannot recall right now, but there
20 were a number of damaged properties.
21 Q. We talked quite a bit about crime, and crime
22 continued to increase. There were some murders of
23 Muslims in that period.
24 A. Unfortunately, there were some murders too.
25 Q. You knew Ibrahim Hodzic, who was the official
1 with the civilian protection; he worked in that
2 office. And he was killed. Were you able to identify
3 the criminals who had attacked him?
4 A. I ordered the inventory of the damaged houses
5 to be produced, and he was a member of this
6 commission. And while this commission was doing its
7 work, he was accosted by some soldiers. He was
8 threatened. And he came to me and he said, "President,
9 what shall I do now?" I said, "Mr. Hodzic, do not go
10 anywhere anymore. Stay away. You see what we have.
11 It's a war. And you see I just received a report that
12 this person's brother was killed." And unfortunately,
13 that same night he was again mistreated, and I then
14 found out that the next day he died from his injuries.
15 Q. Sir, if it was determined that perpetrators
16 of a certain crime were wearing uniforms, who would
17 have been in charge of an investigation to determine
18 their identity?
19 A. It would have been the military police.
20 Q. From this I conclude that the civilian police
21 had no authority over the military personnel.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Did the civilian police have enough
24 personnel? Was it fully staffed in 1993 in order to be
25 able to prevent and prosecute criminals?
1 A. Unfortunately, we did not have enough
2 civilian police officers, nor did we have enough funds
3 to be able to work on crime prevention. These were
4 very difficult times.
5 Q. And the last question on this topic of
6 crime: We agreed that the Muslims were a target of
7 criminals, but also were others, Serbs, Montenegrins
8 and everybody else?
9 A. Unfortunately, yes, and I personally was a
10 victim of these events.
11 Q. Let's move on to the next topic. This is
12 April 1993. According to you, when did the conflict in
13 April start, in April of 1993, and where in Busovaca?
14 A. The conflict in Busovaca started in Busovaca
15 Kuber, that is, due north, towards Zenica. Then it
16 spread to the east, that is, via Merdani, and then to
17 the north-west, north-east, so that the problems sprang
18 up everywhere and the fighting started everywhere.
19 Q. You said -- what date was this?
20 A. It was the 15th of April.
21 Q. Was it 1993?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Kuber is a very strategic feature?
24 A. Yes, it is strategically a very important
25 feature. It divides Busovaca and Zenica, and actually
1 also Vitez. It separates these three communities.
2 Q. Did you have any ideas about whether fighting
3 was also going on -- how shall I put it? -- along the
4 road towards Zenica?
5 A. As I said, it started at Kuber and it went
6 eastward, to the east and south, and north and west,
7 that is, towards Vitez. Because this feature is
8 situated in such a way. It is very prominent.
9 Q. You may have heard in those days that there
10 was also fighting around Ahmici, Santici and other
11 villages along the main road to Vitez.
12 A. Yes. Later on I learned that in the areas of
13 Ahmici and alongside the road, there was heavy
15 Q. At that time, after the beginning of April
16 conflict, a large number of Croats left Zenica. What
17 was your estimate as the president of the municipality
18 in Busovaca? How many Zenica Croats had left?
19 A. A large number of Croats left. About 5.000
20 came to the Busovaca municipality. They were also
21 leaving the Zenica area in the direction of Vitez and
22 Travnik, but they arrived in large numbers.
23 Q. Those 5.000 of the total number of Zenica
24 Croats arrived in Busovaca?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Do you know what is the total number of those
2 who left Zenica?
3 A. Over 20.000.
4 Q. Can you tell me, from April 1993 till March
5 1994, was the town of Busovaca, controlled by the HVO,
7 A. Regrettably, Busovaca was shelled almost
8 constantly. The situation was very difficult. Large
9 Muslim forces were pushing into the Busovaca
10 municipality. The ratio was 10:1. We had only 2.000
11 able-bodied defenders. And I need to mention that in
12 the course of the combat operations, there were a
13 couple of thousand of Mujahedin who were active, 7.000
14 Mujahedin who were active in this area.
15 Q. In respect of the fighting between April and
16 June -- and June is important here because a large
17 number of Travnik refugees arrived in Busovaca -- how
18 many came to Busovaca area?
19 A. A significant number of them arrived in
20 Busovaca, and almost every family had to take in
21 another displaced family.
22 Q. This last large wave of refugees must have
23 added pressure on the local population. Do you
24 remember an order which you co-signed with Mr. Kordic
25 in which you ordered anyone not to disturb property of
1 citizens of Busovaca, regardless of ethnic origin?
2 A. Yes. As the president of the municipality of
3 Busovaca, I co-signed an order with Dusko Grubesic, who
4 was the local commander, and Dario Kordic, a person who
5 everybody trusted in the Busovaca municipality, so that
6 we would prevent mistreatment of the Muslim population
7 and expulsion from their homes.
8 We attempted to have people continue to live
9 in Busovaca in the conditions which we all shared at
10 the time, which were very difficult. Unfortunately,
11 with the arrival of these refugees, the situation
12 became very complicated and worsened from day to day.
13 The food stocks were running out, the fuel was running
14 out, and the winter was approaching. There were all
15 kinds of things going on there, and it was very hard on
16 all of us. It is something that you cannot retell; you
17 have to experience it.
18 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you
19 very much. Mr. Naumovski, could you now go on to the
20 next line of questioning, because you need to finish
21 with your direct examination this afternoon. Please,
22 could you do so as to finish this afternoon, before the
23 end of this session.
24 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I will do my
25 best, Your Honour; however, I need to ask one question
1 in respect of the refugees.
2 Q. You personally were also exposed to the --
3 you had personal contacts with those who were
4 mistreated, and what were these people telling you?
5 A. I have to say that I would talk to people,
6 with Croats who were evicting Muslims from their
7 homes. He said, "Sir, I was expelled by Muslims. I
8 have nowhere to go." This was a sad thing. I tried to
9 help, but it was very difficult to do so, because
10 everybody was -- everybody felt threatened, and only
11 those who went through it could understand it.
12 Q. Mr. Maric, let's move on. As the president
13 of the HVO government in -- during most of the period
14 that is pertinent here, you're the right person to ask
15 this question. Did the civilian HVO government or the
16 HDZ in Busovaca, or any other Croat body, conduct a
17 policy of persecution of Muslims in the Lasva Valley?
18 A. It never even crossed our minds, let alone
19 did we persecute and expel other residents from our
20 municipality. We lived in peace. But it is painful to
21 say this. I have to say: We wanted to live together,
22 and today, thank God, we are rebuilding this
23 federation, and I hope we will rebuild it.
24 Q. Thank you. As the president of the
25 government and a representative of the civilian
1 government, did you ever receive any order,
2 instruction, advice, from anyone from the civilian or
3 military components of the HVO to persecute Muslims or
4 any other ethnic group?
5 A. No. I never received such a thing from
6 anyone, because the HDZ and the HVO were not the ones
7 who persecuted anyone, at least not the leadership. We
8 had thousands and thousands of meetings and put in all
9 efforts to keep people there and to avoid the
10 incidents; however, certain extremists did more than we
11 all thought possible.
12 Q. You mentioned the ratio of forces and the
13 fact that you defended yourself in Lasva Valley.
14 Perhaps just one fact. In February 1993 you also cared
15 for thousands of refugees who were Muslim, who came
16 from various other areas?
17 A. Yes. You should know that we took care of
18 everyone. We shared everything to the last.
19 Q. I just am pointing to this fact. I am
20 trying -- we are pressed for time. Do you just agree
21 with this fact?
22 A. Yes, I do.
23 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Paragraph 44,
24 Your Honours, just a couple of questions on Mr. Kordic.
25 Q. You have known Dario Kordic since the school
2 A. Yes. I have known Mr. Kordic since school
3 days. I am his senior. I went to high school in
4 Travnik and he went to Vitez. We commuted together. I
5 knew him. He was a very correct, a very educated man,
6 who wanted to help everyone, an ambitious man, and he
7 trusted people and people held him in high regard.
8 Q. You cooperated with him from 1990 to 1995,
9 when Mr. Kordic went to take another duty in Mostar?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You said that Mr. Kordic was very popular
12 among people, that he achieved a certain reputation,
13 that he excelled, especially when he became involved in
14 the defence, that is, when he tried to prevent the
15 convoys of weapons from leaving for the JNA. That was
16 in late 1990.
17 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Please, do
18 not lead too much your witness when it comes to the
19 questions about the accused, Mr. Naumovski, please.
20 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Very well,
21 Your Honour, I won't.
22 Q. When it comes to the defence against Serbs,
23 you, in Busovaca, in the Lasva Valley, what did you
24 think? What particular hill feature had to be defended
25 in order to defend the Lasva Valley?
1 A. We were saying that the territory of the
2 municipality of Jajce needs to be defended by Croats
3 and Muslims at all costs, because that was the point.
4 If you want to have a way out, the territories of
5 Kupres, the jugular vein between the Republic of Bosnia
6 with the coast, had been taken over on the sly, and we
7 tried to defend Travnik, the municipality of Travnik,
8 and we did our best to prevent it. But unfortunately,
9 the worst happened.
10 Q. When you spoke about Mr. Kordic's role while
11 he worked in the municipal government as the man
12 responsible for national defence, when he prevented
13 young, not only Croats, but also Muslims, from joining
14 the JNA, and parents were so grateful to him, tell us,
15 did that territory, that is, your territory, the
16 territory of the Lasva Valley, did it have to be
17 defended jointly by the Croats and the Muslims, or did
18 Mr. Kordic perhaps have some other idea?
19 A. We were trying, and Mr. Kordic always talked
20 to Bosniak representatives that the concept of defence
21 against the Serbs should be devised jointly.
22 Unfortunately, Jajce fell, conflicts began against
23 Croats too, and then things unfolded as they did.
24 Q. Paragraph 46. In 1993, when the war
25 escalated and when Busovaca was surrounded, that is,
1 the whole Lasva Valley, if I may put it that way, what
2 role did Mr. Kordic assume? How did you see that?
3 A. Mr. Kordic was a politician. He was a
4 politician all the time.
5 Q. At that time who did he communicate with on
6 your behalf?
7 A. In the beginning he communicated with every
8 man, and especially later he communicated with the
9 representatives of the International Community and
10 through them he sought help, insisting that
11 humanitarian relief be brought to this region, to these
13 I say "region." I'm the president of the
14 canton and I always go back to that because my canton
15 spreads from Jajce to Kresevo, 12 municipalities, and
16 that is what I consider "these lands."
17 Q. Mr. Maric, you also attended a certain number
18 of press conferences; some of them took place in the
19 Busovaca municipal hall where you worked. You heard
20 Mr. Kordic at those press conferences take the floor.
21 What did he speak about?
22 A. He informed the public about the developments
23 in the lands of this region.
24 Q. Mr. Maric, have you ever heard Mr. Kordic, in
25 any public or private address, invite violence against
1 Muslims, or any other ethnic group?
2 A. No. Quite the reverse. He always said we
3 must present a united front and fight for the unity of
4 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I remember that well.
5 Q. Did you ever hear him use derogatory language
6 in addressing another people?
7 A. No, never. He always wanted to help
9 Q. Mr. Maric, you are aware of a protest rally
10 organised by Muslims in Busovaca in late May 1992 in
11 front of the fire brigade centre in Busovaca. At that
12 time you were with Mr. Kordic at a meeting. What was
13 his reaction to that? Was he angry?
14 A. He was not angry at all. We believed that
15 everybody had the right. We are democrats and we
16 wanted everybody to make his protest public.
17 Q. The Prosecution asserted that Mr. Kordic
18 reacted vehemently, that he wanted to take measures
19 against those people; is that true?
20 A. That is not true.
21 Q. Is it true that somebody seized a Muslim flag
22 and committed some outrage upon it?
23 A. No, that is not true.
24 Q. Tell us, please, to the best of your
25 knowledge and conviction, as the president of the HVO
1 government in those hard times, did Mr. Kordic
2 discharge any military duties? Did you ever hear him
3 issue any military order?
4 A. I said that Mr. Kordic was a politician, and
5 that is what he was throughout.
6 Q. Today we also spoke about the time when there
7 was no clear distinction drawn between the
8 civilian/military components of the HVO. Tell us,
9 please, following the summer of 1992, who became the
10 military commander throughout the area?
11 A. Of Herceg-Bosna, that is, throughout the
12 territory of Herceg-Bosna, the commander in chief of
13 all the forces was the president of Herceg-Bosna, that
14 is, Mr. Mate Boban. But as the government was active
15 at that time --
16 Q. Very well. I wanted to speak about the
17 Operative Zone of Central Bosnia. Who was its
18 commander as of 1993 onward?
19 A. The commander of the Operative Zone of
20 Central Bosnia was Colonel Tihomir Blaskic.
21 Q. In December 1992, the Nikola Subic-Zrinjski
22 Brigade was formed in Busovaca. Who were its
23 commanders, briefly?
24 A. In the beginning, its commander, that is,
25 when the brigade was founded, then it was Mr. Ivo
1 Brnada. But the brigade was set up by Mr. Jozinovic
2 and the commander of the brigade was Mr. Dusko
3 Grubesic, and he was succeeded by Mr. Jure Cavara.
4 Q. Did you ever hear about Mr. Kordic having
5 supposedly some role in the chain of command of that
7 A. No, never.
8 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Just two
9 brief questions, if I may, Your Honours, and then we
10 shall finish.
11 Q. Do you know that at different times in 1993
12 telephone lines of Muslims in Busovaca were cut off?
13 A. I must say that in 1993, the system, as I
14 told you before, in the municipality of Busovaca was in
15 the Zenica region; it was under the jurisdiction of the
16 Zenica PTT. So all the lines were blocked, not only
17 those of the Croats -- not only those of the Muslims
18 but of the Croats and the Serbs. All the telephones
19 were cut off.
20 We were under a very heavy blockade and we
21 managed to establish a line to Split. We had a Split
22 number, and that was how we maintained communication
23 with the rest of the world. It was very difficult for
24 us because everybody had to come to my office to talk
25 if he needed to talk to anyone.
1 Q. That is, that line was in your office, was
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Busovaca was not the only place affected by
5 the destruction of telephone lines. Did you hear
6 something about other towns? How did other towns make
7 similar deals with the Croatian post office?
8 A. Yes, and that is how it happened in the
9 municipality of Vitez, and Travnik also established
10 those telephone links.
11 You should also need to know the following:
12 As of the 25th of January, 1993, Busovaca was
13 completely cut off as for the traffic, as for the
14 transportation; that is, no truck, no lorry, could
15 leave the territory of the municipality of Busovaca to
16 go through the territories of other municipalities.
17 Q. Mr. Maric, we are not experts on
18 telecommunications, and I doubt that you are one, but
19 just to draw the full picture of it. If you had a fax,
20 would that fax, the copy of this fax, show that Split
21 number through which it went?
22 A. Yes. The Split number.
23 Q. In Busovaca, I mean.
24 A. Yes, in Busovaca. "057," if I remember
1 Q. The last subject, paragraph 50, Mr. Maric.
2 In late March 1993, you received in your Busovaca
3 office, you received Efendi Enver Prolaz, the Busovaca
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you remember at whose initiative that was
8 A. Mr. Enver Prolaz, the imam who lived in
9 Busovaca, called me by telephone and asked to see me,
10 and I made it possible for him to come and see me. At
11 first he was quite frightened, he was afraid something
12 might happen to him, but I reassured him and told him,
13 "You can come. Don't worry. Nothing will happen to
14 you." And he came and asked for the permission to
15 leave the territory of the municipality of Busovaca,
16 that is, he and his family. I thought about this man
17 who helped Muslims, Bosniaks, who had stayed behind,
18 whether I should allow him to leave. I thought about
19 it and then I told him, "Mr. Prolaz, yes, you'll be
20 able to leave."
21 I also know about the Prosecutor's allegation
22 that I requested the authority from Mr. Kordic to do
23 that. No. I allowed him to leave and he left. I was
24 the one who let him leave to Zenica, and he left.
25 Q. So it was your personal decision and you did
1 not consult anyone about this.
2 A. No, I did not consult anyone. It was a
3 decision that was taken by me.
4 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I would
5 merely like to adduce two more documents. We do not
6 have to comment on them. I only want Mr. Maric to
7 confirm that they are his, and that will be it. They
8 are these last two documents, D273/1 and D274/1.
9 Q. Mr. Maric, this is the first contract that
10 you signed with UNPROFOR, on a lease of the state, and
11 the second document, of 18 August 1993, is an open
12 letter that you sent to international humanitarian
13 organisations and the domestic and foreign public about
14 the difficult situation in Busovaca.
15 A. This is one of the letters. I sent it to the
16 entire world, Europe, seeking help, seeking assistance
17 for peoples in Bosnia-Herzegovina, especially in those
18 areas where those things were happening, as in our
20 Q. Thank you. There is no need to -- I
21 apologise for cutting in. Thank you, Mr. Maric, for
22 your answers.
23 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,
24 Your Honours, for your patience. I have no further
1 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you
2 very much, Mr. Naumovski. Let's organise ourselves for
4 I do not know whether you, Mr. Kovacic, would
5 like to cross-examine Mr. Maric.
6 MR. KOVACIC: Yes, Your Honour, I would have
7 some questions of this witness. Not too much, but
8 perhaps 15, 20 minutes maybe.
9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you
10 very much.
11 Now I turn myself to Mr. Nice. How much time
12 do you think that the cross-examination will last?
13 MR. NICE: It's hard to tell. It's unlikely
14 to be accommodated within the morning. There's a very
15 great deal of material. Much of it is entirely fresh
16 to me today; a lot of it came fresh at the beginning of
17 the week when we first saw the summary. I think it's
18 highly unlikely I will finish him tomorrow.
19 The Chamber can be heartened by the knowledge
20 that the original timetable, which was only changed, I
21 think, at the beginning of the week or the end of last
22 week, was that he would, in any event, start on Friday
23 and finish on Monday.
24 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]
25 Mr. Naumovski.
1 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
2 I only wanted to seek your help. Mr. Maric has been
3 here for the whole week, and I'm afraid -- if perhaps
4 we could work a little longer tomorrow. It would be
5 very difficult for him to stay until Monday because he
6 told us he should get back to his office. We really
7 have a problem there.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice, my
10 colleague Judge Robinson and myself, we know that
11 Mr. Maric needs to leave because he has got many
12 responsibilities and he should probably not stay here
13 over the weekend. We also do know that you have quite
14 a large number of issues and a large number of
15 questions in cross-examination. So we would like to
16 ask you to do your utmost in order to be able to finish
17 tomorrow with the cross-examination of this witness.
18 When it comes to our schedule, I think that
19 we could continue tomorrow afternoon if need be. Maybe
20 we could work for another hour and a half tomorrow
21 afternoon so that the cross-examination could be
23 MR. NICE: I will do everything I can. I was
24 wrong in saying that he was originally scheduled for
25 Friday and Monday. I think he was originally scheduled
1 for Monday and Tuesday; that was the original plan.
2 I'll do everything I can, of course, to
3 accommodate the Chamber. The Chamber should also have
4 in mind that there are five affidavits allegedly
5 supporting this witness, and of course I have to deal
6 with those as well as with his testimony under the
7 Rules that are applied. But I'll do my best.
8 Can I respectfully remind the Court to warn
9 the witness in the normal way.
10 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] I don't
11 think that there are any problems for the affidavits,
12 and in accordance with our practice, we could leave the
13 affidavits for next week.
14 So we agree that Mr. Kovacic can
15 cross-examine Mr. Maric tomorrow for about 15 to 20
16 minutes, and then the Prosecutor should organise
17 himself to complete the cross-examination, in which
18 case I think that he would be given exactly the same
19 time as the Defence had which seems to be very fair.
20 So Mr. Maric could leave here before the weekend.
21 Mr. Nice, did you want to add something?
22 MR. NICE: No. I was standing so that you
23 had somebody to address, principally. But what I would
24 add is that I think Your Honour missed my point about
25 the affidavits.
1 The point that is being made by the Defence
2 regularly is that the reason affidavits have to be
3 served before the supported witness gives his evidence
4 is so that cross-examination relating to the affidavits
5 may be put through that witness, and therefore that
6 necessarily may extend the time.
7 Your Honour, all I can say is I will do, of
8 course, my best and I would hope not to detain this
9 witness, or even seek to do so, beyond tomorrow. But I
10 can't know until I see how things unfold.
11 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you
12 very much. As far as the affidavits are concerned, I
13 do understand that you should see them in order to see
14 how much you have to cross-examine this witness. And
15 in view of the objections that might be raised, one
16 should be able to ask the authors of these affidavits.
17 In case you can't do it, the Chamber will have to make
18 the final decision.
19 Mr. Maric, as far as you are concerned, you
20 should be back here tomorrow morning at 9.30. I would
21 like to remind you the rule of the Tribunal. I remind
22 you that you are still under oath and that you should
23 not speak with anyone about your statement here. You
24 should not speak with the Defence team either. So you
25 will start again at 9.30 with your cross-examination.
1 We hope that the cross-examination will be completed by
2 the end of tomorrow and that you will be free for the
4 So now we are going to adjourn until tomorrow
5 morning, 9.30.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
7 at 4.25 p.m., to be reconvened on
8 Friday the 2nd day of June, 2000,
9 at 9.30 a.m.