Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 20128

1 Friday, 2 June 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

6 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] I remind you

7 what we agreed upon yesterday. Mr. Kovacic will start

8 to cross-examine the witness, Mr. Maric, and it will

9 last for some 20 minutes. After that, the Prosecutor,

10 Mr. Nice, will start to cross-examine, and we have in

11 mind the fact that after the pause, at 1.00, we will be

12 back here at 2.30, hoping to have completed with this

13 witness by 4.00 so that the witness can leave.


15 Cross-examined by Mr. Kovacic:

16 Q. Good morning, Mr. Maric. We have met

17 before. My name is Kovacic, I represent the Defence of

18 Mr. Cerkez. And since you are here, I should like to

19 seize this opportunity and ask you certain things,

20 because you might know them and perhaps you will help

21 us explain some matters.

22 In view of the office that you held, that you

23 told us about, in the municipality of Busovaca, you are

24 presumably familiar with the organisation of power in

25 your municipality, and you told us about that. But did

Page 20129

1 you know -- did you have any at least rudimentary

2 knowledge as to what was going on in the municipality

3 surrounding Busovaca?

4 A. As for the neighbouring municipalities, yes,

5 I was aware of the situation there.

6 Q. So tell us, do you remember if in Vitez there

7 was also a coalition HDZ-SDA after the elections, the

8 only difference being that the Serb side, or rather the

9 party of the Serbs, was not a member of the coalition?

10 A. I remember that these three ruling parties,

11 if I may call them that, were the strongest in the

12 municipality of Vitez too, except that the SDS was not

13 a member of the coalition.

14 Q. And as a result of the elections, Muslims and

15 Croats shared the power in Vitez too, didn't they?

16 A. Yes. The mayor was Mr. Ivica Santic, and as

17 far as I can recall, the president of the executive

18 board, that is, the government, was Fuad Kaknjo.

19 Q. And just for the sake of other people, we

20 understand it, but Ivica Santic is a Croat?

21 A. Yes, he is a Croat, and Fuad Kaknjo is a

22 Muslim.

23 Q. Thank you very much. Now, another matter

24 regarding the situation in the neighbouring

25 municipality. The chief body, which protagonised the

Page 20130

1 defence, the organisation of the defence against the

2 JNA aggression in 1992, the municipal body, that is,

3 was the so-called HVO Municipal Staff?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You in Busovaca also had such a staff?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And so did Vitez?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Do you remember perhaps who headed that body

10 in the municipality of Vitez, who was the commander or

11 the chairman or what of that staff?

12 A. The chairman, the president of the HVO, was

13 Mr. Ivan Santic.

14 Q. Of the government, you mean?

15 A. Yes, the government, and the staff itself,

16 which began to operate before the government was

17 founded, before the HVO, if that is what you mean. The

18 president of the assembly, the mayor, was Ivan Santic.

19 And Mr. Marijan Skopljak, I think, was responsible for

20 the executive branch.

21 Q. Do you remember if Marijan Skopljak held that

22 position even when the defence department was set up,

23 that is, when the government was set up and the defence

24 department?

25 A. Yes. Yes. To the best of my recollection,

Page 20131

1 he headed it.

2 Q. Did you meet Mario Cerkez at the time?

3 A. I met Mario Cerkez in 1993.

4 Q. Could you please be more specific?

5 A. I think it was the latter half.

6 Q. Of 1993?

7 A. Yes, 1993.

8 Q. Latter half of 1993, you are saying?

9 A. Yes, yes.

10 Q. Did you ever hear what kind of office did he

11 hold in 1992, say?

12 A. I can't remember.

13 Q. Did you ever hear what was his position in

14 1993?

15 A. He commanded the Vitez Brigade.

16 Q. You wouldn't know the exact date?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Thank you. And just one subject more. In

19 the organisation of government, even the former

20 Yugoslavia, which was then taken over by the Republic

21 of Bosnia and even by the Croat Republic of

22 Herceg-Bosna, the municipalities had what in the former

23 Yugoslavia was called People's Defence secretariats.

24 Do you remember that?

25 A. I do, yes.

Page 20132

1 Q. And that system, that make-up, was also taken

2 over in the ensuing period. You just mentioned defence

3 offices.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Is it correct to say that these defence

6 offices, or former secretariats, were responsible for

7 the preparation and the organisation of civilian

8 support to the military Defence organisation?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Could one say that essentially all defence

11 matters in the municipality fell within the

12 jurisdiction of those civilian bodies?

13 A. All preparations went through the defence

14 office.

15 Q. So what does preparation mean, actually?

16 A. For instance, lists of reservists. Well, the

17 mobilisation, the compilation of lists, based on the

18 former wartime orders, for instance, in the former,

19 that is, JNA. If somebody was an infantry man in the

20 former system, then he would again be an infantry man

21 in the defence office, and so on and so forth.

22 Q. So the defence office had a record of all the

23 individuals, depending on -- classified according to

24 the rank or the type of the service that somebody did

25 in the JNA?

Page 20133

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And who was paying for those troops?

3 A. Well, those people were paid by the

4 government, practically.

5 Q. You mean the municipality?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. But all the technical matters relating to it

8 were done by the defence office?

9 A. Yes. All the technical preparations were

10 conducted by the defence office.

11 Q. Let us take a simple example. When the

12 defence office summons a particular person, that is,

13 finds him on the records, that is the man they need,

14 called him, established that he is safe and alive, that

15 he has not lost a leg meanwhile or something happened

16 to him, and sends him to a unit, and this is where the

17 job of the defence office ends?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And as of that moment, it is the unit which

20 is responsible for that individual?

21 A. The unit which took up that man is

22 responsible for him.

23 Q. Just one question more about this. You

24 showed us when you went through documents that the

25 central administration, that is, the state of

Page 20134

1 Bosnia-Herzegovina, for all intents and purposes, did

2 not function. Would you agree that the same held true

3 of the organisation of the People's Defence?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And that is why the municipalities undertook

6 to deal with more defence matters than they would

7 otherwise do.

8 A. Yes. When the complete -- when the entire

9 central administration or central government of

10 Sarajevo was completely blocked.

11 Q. So in the organisation of power in the former

12 Yugoslavia, municipalities constituted an important

13 element in the organisation of power; would you agree

14 with that?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In fact, when the system fell apart in Bosnia

17 in 1992, the municipalities assumed all the power

18 prerogatives.

19 A. Well, there was only the municipality which

20 could accept it and lead the people during all those

21 developments.

22 Q. Thank you. Finally, just one question more.

23 Can you tell us, please, if you have ever, ever seen

24 Mr. Cerkez in the municipality in Busovaca, I mean, the

25 building, the municipal hall, ever coming for any

Page 20135

1 official visit, meeting, session?

2 A. No, I never saw him there.

3 Q. Did you ever see him in Busovaca anywhere,

4 any place?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Thank you, Mr. Maric.

7 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I have no

8 further questions. [In English] Thank you.

9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

10 Mr. Kovacic.

11 Mr. Nice, please proceed.

12 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice:

13 Q. Mr. Maric, when did you first have contact

14 with Mr. Kordic's lawyers, please?

15 A. A year and a half ago.

16 Q. When was your summary first drafted, please?

17 A. The summary was written when I arrived here

18 on the 28th of May.

19 Q. When was it first drafted, please?

20 A. Here, when I arrived.

21 Q. The 28th of May was last -- I can't remember

22 now. This week, you mean?

23 A. Sunday. Sunday. It was Sunday.

24 Q. It was all drafted and translated on the

25 Sunday, was it, or the Sunday and the Monday?

Page 20136

1 A. I arrived on Thursday, and on Sunday I

2 prepared this summary for signature.

3 Q. When you first met the lawyers for

4 Mr. Kordic, where did you meet them?

5 A. In Busovaca.

6 Q. Did you meet them in any other place since

7 then?

8 A. No.

9 Q. The documents that you've produced, who

10 selected them?

11 A. These documents, I saw them here. I did not

12 see them before because my whole archive, when I left

13 the municipality of Busovaca, stayed behind in the

14 archive.

15 Q. Who selected the documents, then, that have

16 been produced to the Court?

17 A. Documents, well, they -- here.

18 Q. Is the position that so far as you know the

19 entire Busovaca archive still exists?

20 A. I left Busovaca in 1994. Whether it still

21 exists or whether it does not exist, I cannot really

22 say because for the past six years I've ...

23 Q. These documents, you see, that have been

24 produced to us are all sequentially numbered from 1992

25 through to one document or a couple of documents in

Page 20137

1 1993, and they all have a very similar heading to them;

2 not all identical but similar. Do these appear to be

3 originals that have been copied from the archives, or

4 what?

5 A. They are originals from the archive -- copies

6 of the originals from the archive.

7 Q. Who had access to the archive in order to

8 make this selection, please? You must know; it must

9 have been explained to you.

10 A. I'm telling you, I was with these gentlemen a

11 year and a half ago, and I arrived here, and as for

12 these documents, I don't know who did it because I

13 don't know. But they are my documents, indeed.

14 Q. One notices that there is no official

15 letterhead in 1992 and that the letterhead has simply

16 been typed on in all cases. Why was that?

17 A. That is not true at all, what you are

18 saying. These are originals which were written on the

19 day for which these documents were written.

20 Q. Yes. The letterhead has been typed on; it

21 hasn't got a printed or a formal appearance to it, save

22 in the case of one of the documents which, I think, is

23 number 262/1, for the 11th of November, where there is

24 a formal title page. Were you just typing on the

25 headings of these documents in 1992?

Page 20138

1 A. We were typing headings, and we also had the

2 letterhead forms which were done by the HVO with its

3 full name.

4 Q. Any particular reason for not using the

5 letterhead forms on nearly all of these documents?

6 A. At times we used one type; at other times we

7 used the other type. But as a rule we used the typed

8 ones.

9 Q. Are there any other documents that you've

10 been able to refer to before coming to give evidence

11 here, like a diary, if you have one, for example?

12 A. No, I never kept a diary.

13 Q. Any other documents that you've been able to

14 refer to help you give evidence here today?

15 A. The events in the territory of my

16 municipality have stuck in my memory, it is all

17 imprinted on my mind, so that is how I could speak

18 about those events.

19 Q. Is the overall reality that you're describing

20 for the Judges that the Croats in Busovaca were totally

21 blameless at all times? Is that what you're describing

22 for us?

23 A. I wish to portray the situation as it was in

24 Busovaca. Nobody is infallible. Everybody has

25 mistakes; everybody errs. And there were murders and

Page 20139

1 all sorts of things, and nobody denies that all those

2 things happened.

3 Q. Let's have the full strength from you,

4 please, of how bad the HVO and the Croats were.

5 Murders and all that sort of thing, shall we start with

6 those?

7 What murders in the period 1992/1993 are

8 inexcusable but attributed to the HVO, please?

9 A. Could you repeat the question, please. I

10 didn't understand it.

11 Q. Of course. Tell us about, enumerate, the

12 murders in 1992 and 1993 that are inexcusable and that

13 are attributed to the HVO or the HDZ.

14 A. Murders, to begin with, any perpetrator of a

15 murder should be punished regardless of who or what he

16 is. But what was done by extremists, that is, what I

17 would call people who committed misdeeds which are

18 attributed to the HVO, I condemned the incidents; the

19 incident when Mr. Ibrahim Hodzic was murdered, Mirsad

20 Delija, and those horrendous things that happened in

21 Ahmici.

22 You should also know that I condemn also that

23 which Muslim units did to Croats, because 2.700 men,

24 Croats, died in these lands. Every life is significant

25 for man.

Page 20140

1 Q. Let's focus, then, on the things you've told

2 us about. Who murdered Ibrahim Hodzic?

3 A. Ibrahim Hodzic, the investigation was under

4 way. As far as I know, it was a policeman, a military

5 policeman.

6 Q. Name?

7 A. I cannot remember because the investigation

8 was under way.

9 Q. But this was a military policeman killing in

10 the course of work for the HVO; correct?

11 A. Not that he killed. The problem has to be

12 approached from a different angle. There were such

13 things happening. If somebody lost a brother, a

14 father, then the hatred in him grows towards

15 everybody. And the individual who commits such a crime

16 must be punished, must be called to account, regardless

17 of who or what he is.

18 Q. Well, then, perhaps you'd like to tell us who

19 murdered Mirsad Delija and why.

20 A. I have already said these investigations were

21 under way. The reports were not yet final while I was

22 still in the territory of the municipality of

23 Busovaca.

24 Q. How long did you remain in the territory of

25 Busovaca, please?

Page 20141

1 A. In the territory of Busovaca, it is that part

2 while I was in the government practically.

3 Q. Until? Until when?

4 A. Until April 1994.

5 Q. Between 1993 and 1994, are you saying that

6 this report into Mirsad Delija's death was never taken

7 to any form of conclusion?

8 A. The investigation was being conducted and the

9 investigators were doing their job. I did not receive

10 it, the report.

11 Q. Presumably, and assuming that the archive of

12 the HVO is complete, the archive from which these

13 documents are taken, the report on Mirsad Delija's

14 death will be in the archive, won't it?

15 A. The investigation was conducted by the

16 military police.

17 Q. And the report would still have gone to the

18 HVO, wouldn't it?

19 A. I did not get it, and therefore I cannot

20 speak about what I do not know.

21 Q. Please help me. Would the report of the

22 police into the death of Mirsad Delija have gone to the

23 HVO and be in its archive?

24 A. That is the way it should be, but it did not

25 arrive while I was there in 1994. The investigation

Page 20142

1 was under way and I cannot tell you exactly because I

2 did not get the document.

3 Q. Knowing that you were coming here to give

4 evidence, you didn't ask to see that document, and

5 nobody showed it to you.

6 A. No, I did not ask for it.

7 Q. Let's turn, then, to Ahmici, since you

8 mentioned it. Who committed the appalling crimes of

9 Ahmici?

10 A. From what I learned, there was heavy fighting

11 there, and I cannot say who committed that because this

12 was another municipality and I was not present there.

13 But I condemn every crime, especially the one committed

14 in Ahmici.

15 Q. Yes. You were mayor of a town, just tell us

16 again, how many kilometres from Ahmici?

17 A. The town is about 15 kilometres away.

18 Q. A few minutes in a car; correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Are you telling us that in all the time since

21 then, with all your seniority in office, you can't tell

22 these Judges who committed -- I'm just looking for the

23 terms you used -- those horrendous things that happened

24 in Ahmici? Can you not tell us, please, who did it?

25 A. I cannot say, because I wasn't present.

Page 20143

1 There was also fierce fighting in the territory of

2 Busovaca municipality. You have to know that we were

3 non-stop shelled in Busovaca. We were attacked by

4 almost 20.000 people, and we were defending ourselves.

5 The ratio was 10:1. That was terrible. You couldn't

6 move freely so that you could come and see. Everybody

7 was dealing with their own problems.

8 Q. That doesn't stop your receiving information,

9 then or thereafter, about this atrocity. Please tell

10 me, or tell the Judges: Are you saying you have at no

11 time learnt anything about who were the perpetrators of

12 these horrendous crimes?

13 A. Your Honours, I wasn't there at that time,

14 and I don't know what happened, but I heard that that

15 day was terrible, that a lot of people were killed,

16 both civilian and military. I cannot tell you what I

17 don't know. I took an oath here to tell the truth, and

18 I want to say the truth, because I experienced this

19 truth personally. I know what it was like to be there

20 in that area.

21 Q. These questions started with my asking you if

22 the Croats were blameless, and you were to tell us in

23 what way they weren't blameless. So far you've been

24 unable to name, I think, any murderer or any

25 perpetrator of a crime.

Page 20144

1 Tell me this: When you learnt of the arrest

2 of Blaskic and the later surrender by himself or by the

3 State of Croatia of Kordic, did you think these men had

4 been wrongly charged, from all you knew of them?

5 A. From what I know about these people,

6 Mr. Tihomir Blaskic, Mr. Dario Kordic, and Mr. Cerkez,

7 I know that these are innocent men.

8 Q. As the mayor of Busovaca at the critical

9 time, you were the holder of detailed and relevant

10 information, weren't you?

11 A. I was leading the civilian affairs during the

12 war and I was getting exclusively civilian orders; that

13 is, I issued orders in respect of civilian affairs.

14 And the military units and military commanders

15 conducted the military affairs, and those were in their

16 hands.

17 Q. Well, on one answer you say that these men

18 are innocent, to your knowledge, and the next answer

19 you try to distinguish between civilian and military

20 affairs. My question to you was quite particular: Are

21 you and were you the holder of detailed and relevant

22 information about what was happening that led these two

23 men to trial in this institution? Your answer is yes,

24 isn't it; you had and have a lot of relevant

25 information?

Page 20145

1 A. Your Honours, I would like to say this: A

2 man who commits something wrong, who commits an evil,

3 is a criminal. A person of whom no such thing was

4 proved cannot be considered a criminal. I know a

5 little bit about law, because I was involved in it a

6 little bit.

7 Q. I wonder if you could just help us with

8 this: Did it ever occur to you, with your position of

9 central knowledge, to offer to help the Office of the

10 Prosecutor with what your knowledge was?

11 A. I said that the documents remained in the

12 archives. They were accessible. I left in 1994; I

13 left the municipality, that is, and I cannot speak to

14 the whereabouts of the documents.

15 Q. The answer to my question is: No, it never

16 occurred to you to get in touch with the Prosecutor

17 here and say, "Well, I actually know what happened.

18 Let me come and help you and tell you," did it?

19 A. I came today and I want to present the events

20 which occurred in the Busovaca municipality.

21 Q. Who replaced you as mayor, and when?

22 A. How do you mean, when? What year?

23 Q. Yes.

24 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Maric,

25 did you hear the question which you were asked?

Page 20146

1 A. I heard the question, but I did not quite

2 understand what the gentleman was driving at.

3 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] The question

4 was the following: You left Busovaca in 1994. Who

5 replaced you as mayor, and when? You either know, and

6 then you'll answer. In case you don't know or you've

7 forgotten, this is not really here something where we

8 should exercise our memories here; you should simply

9 declare that you don't know. But the question was very

10 simple and clear.

11 A. Your Honours, I just had not understood what

12 the gentleman was asking me. But I do know.

13 Mr. Glavocevic replaced me.

14 MR. NICE:

15 Q. Thank you. And he then remained mayor until

16 when?

17 A. He remained mayor until -- I know that he was

18 replaced by Mr. Niko Grubesic, and then he in turn was

19 replaced by Nikica Petrovic, who was the mayor until a

20 few days ago.

21 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

22 Mr. Nice.

23 Mr. Maric, did you come back to Busovaca

24 since 1994?

25 A. Yes, I did come to Busovaca. I was heading

Page 20147

1 the office of the Central Bosnia canton for forestry

2 and agriculture till 1996, and then after that the

3 Central Bosnia HDZ cantonal office, and now I am

4 officially the president of the parliament of the

5 Central Bosnia canton. So these are the duties that I

6 have held since.

7 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 Do you live currently in Busovaca?

9 A. I reside in Busovaca with my family, and

10 every day I commute to Travnik, where my office is.

11 And I have to say that Travnik has become a very Muslim

12 town, because a lot of Croats have been expelled from

13 there. And at first it was very difficult, but I have

14 managed to successfully discharge my duties there.

15 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16 MR. NICE:

17 Q. Have you maintained contact with those mayors

18 who have come after you, Mr. Grubesic and Mr. Petrovic?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Are you aware of any policy expressed by one

21 of those mayors to potential Prosecution witnesses in

22 this case, discouraging at least one of them from

23 coming to give evidence here?

24 A. I never heard of anything like that.

25 Q. Let me turn to some generalities. But before

Page 20148

1 I do, there's no aspect of Busovaca life and there's no

2 part of Busovaca territory that was kept from you at

3 the material time, was there?

4 A. You should know that Busovaca, with all its

5 territory, which was populated by Croats, Bosniak

6 Muslims and the Serbs, was one integral territory;

7 however, through attacks and warfare, the territory has

8 been split up. And now we're engaging in building up

9 the Federation, so now we're looking at it as one unit

10 and --

11 Q. I'll cut you short, because we have limited

12 time. At the material time, that is, 1992, 1993,

13 possibly 1994, there was no aspect of Busovaca life or

14 Busovaca territory that was kept from you; you were

15 free to travel everywhere, you met everyone, you were

16 able to get to know what was going on?

17 A. How was it possible, when during the conflict

18 a Croat could not come to the area controlled by the

19 ABiH? You couldn't leave the territory of Busovaca

20 municipality, that is, the area controlled -- the area

21 of town controlled by the HVO.

22 Q. Very well. I'm going to press on with this.

23 I'm going to ask you about various people and ask

24 whether you or they should know more about Mr. Kordic

25 and his involvement at the time. Should you know as

Page 20149

1 much as or more than Milorad Jovic of what Mr. Kordic

2 was doing? Who should know more about Mr. Kordic, you

3 or Milorad Jovic?

4 A. You should know, Milorad Jovic is a Serb.

5 Regardless of whether he's a Serb or a Muslim or a

6 Croat in Busovaca, whoever talked to Mr. Kordic knew

7 him, knew him well.

8 Q. And the other names are these: Nikica

9 Petrovic, Milenko Bilanovic, Anto Stipac, and the man

10 Hodzic, who was vice-president of the HDZ ABiH. Now,

11 as between you and those men, who should know Kordic

12 better or best? You?

13 A. Everyone knew Kordic, knew him from the

14 school days. And we socialised. When we started up

15 the party, we were together. We had contacts non-stop,

16 so I know Kordic as a good person.

17 Q. We've heard that before, and I'll come back

18 to it, in which case I'll move on, because I want to

19 save time. If you can't answer the question, I'll move

20 on.

21 Mr. Kordic's job before all this developed

22 was actually rather a modest one, wasn't he? He ran

23 the newspaper for the business and was a publicity

24 person?

25 A. At first he worked as a journalist for the

Page 20150

1 company.

2 Q. But he was a keen member of the league of

3 communists at his factory?

4 A. He was a member of -- it was open to anyone

5 who wanted to join.

6 Q. Please answer the question. He was a keen

7 and active member of the League of Communists?

8 A. I don't know that, because I never was a

9 member of the League of Communists.

10 Q. When the new party was formed, there was

11 obviously an opportunity for ambitious people.

12 Kordic's father was ambitious for him, wasn't he, Pero

13 Kordic?

14 A. Anybody had a right to form a party if they

15 wanted to, whether they were ambitious or not. That

16 depended on what they wanted to do. Perhaps I was more

17 ambitious. That is a matter of judgement. If you do

18 not value yourself, how are you going to be able to

19 value anyone else?

20 Q. It would help me if you'd answer the

21 question. Kordic was ambitious and his father was

22 ambitious for him too, yes or no?

23 A. Any person who joined the party had an

24 ambition. Everybody was trying to see a reflection of

25 himself in a leader who would lead the party well, who

Page 20151

1 would show the way.

2 Q. If we look ahead, confirm this if it's

3 right: In due course that party established, without

4 any involvement of the Muslims, a government called the

5 HVO; correct?

6 A. That is not correct. Muslims were also part

7 of the HVO government.

8 Q. The establishment of the HVO was without

9 election, without referendum; it was simply an

10 imposition; correct?

11 A. A referendum was not necessary. Through the

12 referendum we achieved an independent

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina. We achieved that, thank God, on

14 the 1st of March, 1992.

15 Q. The HVO was created by a political party and

16 it was imposed on an area without referendum, without

17 election; true or false?

18 A. A referendum was not necessary. We were

19 involved in a struggle to preserve the identity of a

20 people. This happened after the attacks of the JNA

21 against the Slovenia --

22 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Maric,

23 the question, once again, is a very simple one.

24 What you call the HVO is not something which

25 was the result of an election; those people were simply

Page 20152

1 not elected. That was the question. Please answer

2 with yes or no; there is no reason for you to comment

3 on it.

4 A. There was no referendum; that is true. There

5 was no referendum.

6 MR. NICE: Thank you.

7 Q. So that your area fell under the government

8 of something that had been created by a single

9 political party; that's correct, isn't it?

10 A. What I can state is that it is true that it

11 was created by the Croat Democratic Union, which was

12 the leading party representing the Croatian people in

13 Bosnia-Herzegovina because it received support of over

14 90 per cent of the Croatian population.

15 Q. The experience of communist states, and of

16 your state as well, was that once a body, political or

17 military, has power and exercises it, it's very

18 difficult to take it away, what you all discovered

19 through decades of Tito's leadership; correct?

20 A. This period after 1990, when a new society

21 was formed, when the new parliaments were established,

22 this is something completely different from the Titoist

23 regime which was in power until then.

24 Q. I'm not asking you about the new system. I'm

25 asking you about the experience of communist states;

Page 20153

1 namely, that once you take power, if you take it with

2 sufficient firmness, it's very difficult to have it

3 taken away from you; correct?

4 A. You should know that everyone wants to win

5 the elections and then keep the power. That is the

6 goal of every party, to rule as long as possible, and

7 it is up to the population to support it or not.

8 Q. What happened here -- and I'm just looking at

9 things overall before I come to matters of detail -- is

10 that the party's ambition grew and with it,

11 Mr. Kordic's ambition; that's correct, isn't it?

12 A. It's not just Kordic's ambition. The

13 ambitions of every member of the party grew. Everyone

14 wanted that his party grew and prospered in a

15 democratic way, along the democratic principles.

16 Q. What we're going to see as we review the

17 history is Mr. Kordic first in civilian clothes, then

18 in civilian clothes with a firearm, and then in

19 uniform, and that parallels the development of your

20 party and the government going from being a party to a

21 government and to a government operating by force;

22 correct?

23 A. Sir, it's not like you're saying. You should

24 know the circumstances and the events that were taking

25 place from 1990 onward. Events kept succeeding each

Page 20154

1 other, and very quickly the war and the refugees, and

2 you had to defend your home. There were a host of

3 problems. Every man in those territories wanted to

4 preserve their homes. We defended ourselves; we did

5 not attack anyone. If you had spent only one minute

6 there, you would have experienced the same stress and

7 the same pain, and --

8 Q. I must stop you because we don't have time --

9 A. -- we have hundreds of people who are sick

10 from it.

11 Q. By the end of the period with which we are

12 particularly concerned, had Mr. Kordic and Colonel

13 Blaskic started to fall out, to your and everybody

14 else's knowledge?

15 A. I don't know that there were any quarrels.

16 Q. I'm going to suggest to you that in the

17 latter part of the period with which we are concerned,

18 or even in the middle part, Mr. Kordic was taking

19 military decisions and authority, to the damage of the

20 population it may be, but he was taking them, and that

21 this was causing difficulties as between him and

22 Blaskic; is that true?

23 A. Not true. Mr. Dario Kordic was a politician

24 and he was a politician throughout, and Mr. Tihomir

25 Blaskic was the chief of staff and he conducted the

Page 20155

1 military matters. And the Main Staff was in Mostar,

2 under the command of General Petkovic.

3 Q. I'll come back to that topic later in its

4 sequence. But you're maintaining, as I think you are

5 from your answers, that your party was essentially

6 democratic in some way. Tell us, please, why Mr. Cicak

7 was so unacceptable to the party, when all he was

8 voicing was democratic opinions.

9 A. The Croat Democratic Union is a democratic

10 party. Mr. Dragutin Cicak, who was for a period of

11 time the vice-president of the party in Busovaca, was a

12 man who came from Zenica -- so he was not a local man

13 from Busovaca; he only had a weekend home in

14 Busovaca -- but this is a man who, due to mental

15 illness, took an early retirement. He had good and bad

16 sides like any other person who may have good or bad

17 sides.

18 Q. You and, if I may say so, you'll be helped to

19 know, all the other Defence witnesses are now referring

20 to his mental illness. Tell me, please, when it first

21 seemed to you important to mention this man's mental

22 illness as in some way significant.

23 A. He often complained of being ill, and when he

24 was supposed to come up with certain programmes he

25 often said, "I just cannot do this because I have

Page 20156

1 problems."

2 Q. He resigned on the 7th of April of 1991 --

3 the document is 2732; I'm not going to take us through

4 it for the moment for want of time -- but that wasn't

5 the end of his involvement in these matters, was it?

6 A. I would like to see the documents to refresh

7 my memory.

8 Q. All right.

9 MR. NICE: Document 2732, if we could make

10 that available. I'm so sorry.

11 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Excuse me,

12 Mr. Nice.

13 Mr. Maric, you told us that Mr. Cicak was

14 suffering from mental illness.

15 A. Yes.

16 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Why do you

17 assume that he had a mental illness rather than another

18 type of illness? You say that he was tired; he could

19 have had any physical illness. Why do you speak of a

20 mental illness?

21 A. Because Mr. Dragutin Cicak told me personally

22 that he had such an illness. Personally we were good

23 friends.

24 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 MR. NICE:

Page 20157

1 Q. You wanted to have a look at the document.

2 It's coming your way.

3 MR. NICE: If we put on the ELMO the second

4 sheet in English -- sorry, the third sheet of that

5 document, which begins, "I have neither the will nor

6 the strength to fight against the fools ..."

7 Q. Dealing with this point quickly, it's true,

8 isn't it, that in his resignation he identified Ivan

9 Pervan as somebody he couldn't work with and maintained

10 right at that early stage that he was being supported

11 by Kordic, although Kordic was somebody he was prepared

12 to discuss with in public; correct?

13 A. No, it is not correct, because if you can

14 tell a priest that he's crazy, that he's not all there,

15 then I think it speaks for itself. A man who is a

16 priest for more than 6.000 men, a man who has been

17 helping people all along, to say something like that to

18 such a priest, I think it shows quite clearly what kind

19 of a man that is.

20 Q. You haven't answered my question but we don't

21 have enough time to go into questions twice. So if you

22 don't answer the first time, then I'm going to move

23 on.

24 On the 13th of August, in Busovaca, your

25 party of 1991 was already calling the man Kljuic to

Page 20158

1 account, a senior and influential politician. Was that

2 because he was a democrat by instinct and you didn't

3 like his contrary views?

4 A. You ought to know that Mr. Stjepan Kljuic, as

5 the president of the HDZ, never came to Busovaca. And

6 he was married -- of course, his personal thing -- to a

7 Muslim from Busovaca, and she also had some relatives

8 there. He would go to other places but he never came

9 to Busovaca.

10 Q. That, no doubt, was his decision. But your

11 local party, ambitious for power, was summoning Kljuic

12 and calling him to account as soon after its creation

13 as August of 1991. This is all a reflection of local

14 ambition, isn't it?

15 A. No, it is not a reflection -- it is not a

16 reflection of local ambition. But if a president is to

17 lead a people, then he must do it honestly and fairly

18 rather than leave that people to be destroyed by

19 somebody else.

20 Q. Things progressed, and we know that on the

21 4th of November of 1991, you can see the document if

22 you want to, there was a meeting of the Travnik

23 regional community, with people attending, I think,

24 including Cicak. On that occasion a confidential memo

25 was sent to Tudjman -- we don't have the memo, I don't

Page 20159

1 think -- or reference was made to such a memo that had

2 been sent in October.

3 You all swore yourselves to secrecy or

4 declared yourselves to secrecy over the memo. What was

5 the memo about?

6 A. I'd like to see it, if possible, to remind

7 me.

8 Q. Z20. Now, we can see that you were

9 attending, and under number 2 of the conclusions, which

10 can go on the ELMO, please, conclusion number 2:

11 Confidential conclusion of the 22nd of

12 October, sent to Dr. Franjo Tudjman, unanimously

13 supported by members of the Croatian Regional Community

14 of Travnik, promising to respect the secrecy of this

15 information.

16 What was it about?

17 A. It is true that I was at a meeting, which is

18 shown here. It is quite true that the conclusion is

19 supported unanimously on the 22nd of October, 1991,

20 which is sent to the president of the HDZ. But you

21 should know that the Croat Democratic Union is a party

22 of every Croat, regardless of where he lives, be it in

23 Canada, Australia, Busovaca --

24 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Maric, I

25 would ask you to answer the questions that you are

Page 20160

1 being asked, in order to be able to finish -- complete

2 your cross-examination within the time limit; otherwise

3 you will have to come back here on Monday. We really

4 have a schedule.

5 What can you tell us precisely about the

6 documents addressed to President Tudjman? Please

7 answer the question. And all the rest about what was

8 the HDZ, we know; we've been informed.

9 A. As for this document sent to Dr. Franjo

10 Tudjman, it was said that the Croat Democratic Union

11 would respect the democratic principles in the rest of

12 Croats and all other people.

13 MR. NICE: That hardly requires secrecy. I

14 would have thought public acclamation might be more

15 appropriate. Wouldn't that be the case? Why secrecy,

16 please?

17 A. It is specified here that the secrecy, it is

18 simply the code secret, because the majority of

19 documents were strictly confidential; that is, that was

20 the marking taken over from the old system.

21 Q. You know that Croatia, via Dr. Franjo

22 Tudjman, assisted, and significantly, in the conduct of

23 the war, including the war in Central Bosnia; correct?

24 A. Croatia was helping Bosnia-Herzegovina,

25 helping equally the Croat and the Bosniak people.

Page 20161

1 Q. By the time of the fighting between the

2 Croats and the Bosnians, are you suggesting that

3 Dr. Franjo Tudjman was helping the Bosnians at that

4 stage, or was he just helping the Croats?

5 A. He was helping them both.

6 Q. Well, what help was he giving to the Bosnians

7 that they might, what, that they might do something to

8 the Croats? Tell us, please.

9 A. He was helping both the Croats and the

10 Muslims with food, other supplies, and all that was

11 necessary to survive in these territories. He received

12 over 500 displaced persons. There is hardly any other

13 state which received so many people as Croatia.

14 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Maric,

15 under these circumstances, if you are telling us that

16 Mr. Tudjman was supporting the Bosnians and the Croats,

17 what were the objectives and the motivations of

18 Mr. Tudjman?

19 A. The motives of Mr. Tudjman were that

20 Bosnia-Herzegovina, as an autonomous state, is within

21 its borders, because Croatia was the first one to

22 recognise Bosnia after its independence, which was

23 acquired in a referendum on the 1st of March, when the

24 Croats and the Muslims and a part of loyal Serbs voted

25 for its independence.

Page 20162

1 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

2 Mr. Maric. I'm speaking about the time period where

3 the conflict between the Croats and the Muslims

4 started, which means from 1993 onwards, from January

5 1993 onwards. Did Mr. Tudjman continue to support

6 Croats and Muslims, the two parties which were opposing

7 one another?

8 A. Yes. Tudjman was supporting them both.


10 Q. Are you suggesting that Tudjman was sending

11 arms to both sides, or military personnel to both

12 sides?

13 A. Well, weapons were arriving in the

14 territories of Bosnia-Herzegovina invariably through

15 Croatia, because the only roads that took one to

16 Bosnia-Herzegovina were across Croatia, whether it

17 arrived legally or, as some call it, illegally.

18 Q. I want to know -- it's a simple question, and

19 I'll make it simpler -- was Tudjman providing arms to

20 the Muslims to use against the Croats; is that your

21 evidence?

22 A. Tudjman never said that the Croats and the

23 Muslims should have a conflict.

24 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] That was not

25 the question you were asked. The question that you

Page 20163

1 were asked is: Did Mr. Tudjman send arms to Muslims

2 for the Croats? Please answer by saying "yes" or

3 "no."

4 A. I cannot say exactly whether it was being

5 sent or not.


7 Q. But he certainly sent arms to the Croats,

8 didn't he?

9 A. Well, everybody was trying to manage. Even

10 Saudi Arabia was sending arms to the Muslims side, and

11 the Croats did not get them. Instead of food, they

12 were getting ammunition in tins. There are documents

13 about that.

14 Q. I'm going to interrupt you, Mr. Maric, to

15 save time. You have another chance to answer the

16 question, please. Tudjman sent arms to the Croats; yes

17 or no?

18 A. Sometimes he did, sometimes he did not --

19 Q. Thank you.

20 A. -- because he was in a very difficult

21 situation too.

22 Q. And you know perfectly well some of Tudjman's

23 thinking, don't you, because you went to meetings with

24 him?

25 A. I cannot know what other people think, but I

Page 20164

1 was present at meetings when Mr. Tudjman said, in so

2 many words, that we were fighting democratically, and

3 he never mentioned that we were fighting against the

4 Bosniaks.

5 Q. How many meetings with Tudjman did you go to?

6 A. Six meetings all in all, as far as I can

7 remember at the moment, that is, since the party was

8 formed until 1999.

9 Q. How many meetings did you go to with Tudjman

10 in 1992?

11 A. 1992?

12 Q. Mm-hmm.

13 A. In 1992 I did not go.

14 Q. 1993?

15 A. 1993 I was present at one, and at the time

16 when there was a ceasefire.

17 Q. That was in March of 1993, wasn't it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. About a month before Ahmici. What was the

20 purpose of that discussion, please?

21 A. You can already assume that it did not

22 initiate the conflict. We went to talk to President

23 Tudjman about the cessation of any further activities

24 regarding conflicts in the territory of Central Bosnia,

25 to come and talk to President Alija to withdraw his

Page 20165

1 extremists who had initiated those problems, to avoid

2 conflicts, because President Tudjman was an authority

3 and he could talk to presidents.

4 Q. Did you go to take his instructions on how to

5 conduct yourselves in the coming months?

6 A. We did not go to get instructions.

7 Q. It's right, isn't it, that amongst the means

8 by which arms were brought to Busovaca from Tudjman was

9 Bruno Susnjar, who regularly collected arms; would that

10 be correct? We've heard evidence about this.

11 A. I cannot say exactly if he was the one who

12 brought arms. I know that arms were arriving, that

13 some individuals brought arms.

14 Q. Anto Sliskovic, did he bring them?

15 A. I don't know.

16 Q. Well, who did? We've heard those two names

17 mentioned, but you tell us. You were there. Who

18 brought the arms from Tudjman? There's also the man

19 Franjo Kristo, a police chief. But never mind. You

20 tell us.

21 A. I don't know exactly all the people who

22 brought arms. All I know is that arms arrived.

23 Q. Are you telling us that you're now not able

24 to remember, that it's some form of amnesia, or that

25 you never really knew? Which is it?

Page 20166

1 A. I can't remember all the people who brought

2 them. I know that arms arrived in the territory of the

3 municipality of Busovaca.

4 Q. You don't have to remember them all. Can you

5 just help us with one name of somebody who brought arms

6 from Tudjman to Busovaca, please?

7 A. To begin with, Tudjman did not bring them,

8 because arms were arriving through Croatia, because

9 arms arriving, as I said, were arriving through

10 Croatia. Whether it was brought in another country, in

11 other states, I do not know that and I cannot tell you.

12 Q. Kordic had been elected to a job in defence.

13 Why defence? What skills did he have?

14 A. As for when the government was formed, then,

15 in 1990, Mr. Kordic -- and the regulations, the

16 conditions, the qualifications that had to be met to

17 hold that office were met by Mr. Kordic. What it

18 required was to have somebody with a university degree,

19 and he had that.

20 Q. But no special qualifications for defence of

21 any kind; correct?

22 A. You do not need any special education for

23 that, to be able to head such an office, because he had

24 under him individuals who were responsible for

25 individual departments in that office.

Page 20167

1 Q. On the 18th of November of 1991, last event

2 before we move to 1992, there was a meeting in Grude,

3 and the result of that was that Kordic became a

4 vice-president; is that right?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. I think you told us this: Senior

7 representatives of various municipalities in which the

8 Croats lived formed the presidency; is that right?

9 A. Excuse me. I didn't hear the interpretation

10 of the first half of the sentence. Sorry.

11 Q. I think I was quoting from paragraph 14 of

12 your summary, if my notes are correct, and what you

13 said in paragraph 14 of your summary was: "The senior

14 representatives of the various municipalities in which

15 Croats lived formed the presidency of the HZ HB, which

16 became a legislative body."

17 Now --

18 A. Yes. Quite. Yes, that is right. For

19 instance, I, as a municipal mayor -- if a Croat was a

20 municipal mayor, then he joined that presidency, and

21 presidents of the executive board were the second

22 position. For instance, in our case it was a Muslim,

23 Asim Sunulahpasic. There were many municipalities

24 where that was not the case and where Croats also were

25 the heads of local governments.

Page 20168

1 Q. And so Kordic, but correct me if I've got

2 this wrong, Kordic becomes the vice-president with an

3 interest in a particular area; is that about right? Is

4 that what you're saying?

5 A. What do you mean? What do you mean, with a

6 particular responsibility? I don't understand you.

7 Q. I'm asking you, really, built on what you

8 said in your statement. "The senior representatives of

9 the various municipalities formed the presidency." So

10 it looks as though the composition of the presidency is

11 municipality-based, and therefore the representatives

12 on the presidency may represent bits of the area, bits

13 of the municipalities.

14 Kordic became a vice-president. Was that to

15 reflect his interest in a particular part of the

16 territory?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Are you sure about that?

19 A. No, Mr. Kordic was elected vice-president of

20 the Croat Community of Herceg-Bosna.

21 Q. Well, then, help me with this: In the local

22 area, who was the senior politician if it wasn't

23 Mr. Kordic?

24 A. As I have said, Mr. Kordic was a

25 vice-president. The 18th of November, 1991 is when the

Page 20169

1 Croat Community of Herceg-Bosna was founded, and that

2 was that umbrella organisation and he became its

3 vice-president.

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. If that is what you mean.

6 Q. In your area, Central Bosnia --

7 A. That's it.

8 Q. -- was there any politician of the party

9 senior to Kordic, or was he really the local man? Was

10 he the local political --

11 A. He continued to be president of the Busovaca

12 HDZ.

13 Q. Yes. That's still not an answer to the

14 question. Was he -- go on.

15 A. He was the president of the Busovaca HDZ, I

16 was the mayor of the municipality, and so in that

17 hierarchy we were practically on a par, because the

18 presidency consisted of all the representatives of

19 authority.

20 Q. See, when we come to the fighting and the

21 war, the question we're going to want your help with is

22 who was controlling the military? Do you understand?

23 Who was actually running the war? I want to know, and

24 I'll give you advance notice so that you can think

25 about it, what politician other than Kordic had the

Page 20170

1 seniority in your local area to command the soldiers?

2 Would you like to deal with it now?

3 A. I want to answer. The presidency of the

4 HZ HB, headed by President Boban. He was the pivotal

5 figure, President Mate Boban, a master of sciences.

6 During wartime operations, the president of

7 the HZ HB, that is, the Croat Republic of Herceg-Bosna,

8 was Master Boban, master of arts, and he was the

9 commander in chief, the head of everything. The

10 government which was established later was headed by

11 Prime Minister Jadranko Prlic, and it had its

12 ministries.

13 I explained it to you yesterday when I

14 testified that the army was run by Milivoje Petkovic,

15 who was hierarchically -- and he hierarchically followed

16 the chain of command downward by military districts;

17 and in Central Bosnia it was Mr. Tihomir Blaskic, and

18 then again in the descending order to brigade

19 commanders. That was the hierarchy which was set up.

20 The government -- you are confusing

21 governments. The HVO government acted as the civilian

22 wing and the HVO, secondly, the military component, it

23 is responsible for activities having to do with the

24 army.

25 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice, if

Page 20171

1 you think that this would be an appropriate moment.

2 MR. NICE: Certainly.

3 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] We are going

4 to adjourn for half an hour and we will start again at

5 half past eleven.

6 --- Recess taken at 11.03 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 11.34 a.m.

8 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Yes,

9 Mr. Nice.

10 MR. NICE: Thank you.

11 Q. Before I move on to 1992, I'm going back to

12 the question that you were answering at length before

13 we broke, and I want a single, if it's possible, name

14 in answer to this question: In the war, what was the

15 name of the politician who affected any measure of

16 control over the military in your area?

17 A. What was the name of the politician?

18 Q. Yes.

19 A. As I said, the military affairs were handled

20 by the headquarters of Petkovic, down to Blaskic, and

21 of the civilians, it was Mr. Dario Kordic.

22 Q. Yes. What about Mr. Dario Kordic?

23 A. Dario Kordic was only a politician, just like

24 I was just a politician of the civilian HVO.

25 Q. I am going to give you one more chance. Let

Page 20172

1 me explain it to you in simple terms. In the last big

2 war, it might have been said that Churchill, or on the

3 other side Hitler, commanded the war but in each case

4 was a politician. Now, who was the politician who

5 commanded the war in your territory, please?

6 A. In the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina the

7 main politician was Mate Boban.

8 Q. In Central Bosnia, when you were cut off, who

9 was the politician?

10 A. We were all politicians, and he was our

11 politician, Dario Kordic.

12 Q. Right. So he was the leading politician.

13 Was he the one who was communicating instructions to

14 the military, please?

15 A. He communicated with everyone, regardless of

16 whether they were the military or civilian, because he

17 advocated the peace in the area; he talked with the

18 UNPROFOR representatives, with anyone who expressed the

19 desire to talk to him.

20 Q. On the 16th of January of 1992, you were at

21 the Busovaca Cultural Club, where there was the rally.

22 If it's absolutely necessary, you can be shown it

23 again. It's a video. But we've seen it enough times

24 and we're pressed for time. Do you remember the rally?

25 A. I do remember it.

Page 20173

1 Q. Did you think that the observations Kordic

2 made linking the fate of your part of the territory to

3 Germany, and to the hope, were neutral statements, or

4 do you think they had any potentially unsatisfactory

5 significance?

6 A. As far as I know, Mr. Kordic -- and I was

7 present there -- he did not irritate anyone with his

8 statements.

9 Q. What about Kostroman? And I can just tell,

10 you as a matter of interest, that you're seen on the

11 tape -- as the camera pans around, you're seen on the

12 tape in the middle of Kostroman's speech. What did you

13 think of Kostroman's speech, where he was saying that

14 this was Croatian land and that Croatian laws would be

15 enforced there? What did you think of that?

16 A. Everyone has the right to say whatever they

17 want. However, for me and those who were present

18 there, this was not acceptable. I'm a citizen of

19 Bosnia and Herzegovina. That is my country. And I

20 also respect the Croatian state.

21 Q. Does it surprise you to know that a Muslim

22 witness testified that this speech aroused associations

23 with the fascist state of Croatia during World War II

24 and proved to be extremely troubling to them, that is,

25 to the Muslims? Does that surprise you?

Page 20174

1 A. As far as that speech is concerned, as I

2 said, everyone has the right to say whatever they want,

3 and people can accept or not accept the speech of a

4 person.

5 Q. I'm sorry. You're a local resident, you know

6 your Muslims. The question was quite simple. Does it

7 surprise you that that speech should arouse those sort

8 of concerns in your fellow inhabitant Muslims?

9 A. Anyone could be concerned, whether it is an

10 irritating type of statement or something else. It

11 depends on how people take it. And as far as the

12 Kostroman statement is concerned, everybody is

13 responsible for their own speeches and their own

14 actions.

15 Q. If you won't answer the question, will you

16 answer this: Did you at any stage disassociate

17 yourself from Kostroman's speech and from his stance on

18 basically trying to join up this part of the territory

19 with Croatia? Did you at any stage do that?

20 A. That was a view of Mr. Kostroman. My views

21 are completely different. I respect the Croatian

22 state, but I also respect my own state of Bosnia and

23 Herzegovina, because I am a member of the parliament of

24 Bosnia and Herzegovina and I protect the interests of

25 the people there.

Page 20175

1 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Maric,

2 that is all very well, and I believe Mr. Nice could

3 move on to another question, because the witness has

4 answered after his own fashion.


6 Q. Do you accept that at about this time, that's

7 the beginning of January of 1992, Mr. Kordic, who in

8 the rally was in plain clothes, that is, in civilian

9 clothes, do you accept that about this time he also was

10 seen with a firearm, a pistol, on the occasion of the

11 stopping of the convoy, called the Banana Convoy, at

12 Kaonik on the 17th of January?

13 A. I don't remember that.

14 Q. In general, do you accept that he moved from

15 being a person in plain clothes through to being an

16 authoritative figure carrying a firearm?

17 A. I did not see Mr. Kordic carrying weapons.

18 MR. NICE: Your Honour, for reference

19 purposes, that was Witness A.

20 Q. He resigned, Mr. Kordic, on the 25th of

21 January --

22 MR. NICE: I'm cutting stuff out, Your

23 Honour, in order to save time.

24 Q. He resigned on the 25th of January from his

25 position as deputy president. Do you know why?

Page 20176

1 A. The vice-president?

2 Q. The vice-president of HZ HB.

3 A. I don't know that.

4 Q. Well, the resignation was rejected at a

5 meeting on the 27th. Do you know anything about that?

6 This was the meeting where Kljuic was ousted and his

7 authorities frozen, it appears.

8 A. I'm not familiar with that.

9 Q. Very well. Well, we'll move on as swiftly as

10 we can.

11 MR. NICE: Your Honour, if you'll give me a

12 minute, I'll just try and cut material all the time.

13 Q. Do you know the man Skravan?

14 A. I didn't get the interpretation of this.

15 Q. Skravan. Did you know a man called Skravan

16 Bozidar?

17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel please

18 spell the name.

19 MR. NICE: S-k-r-a-v-a-n.

20 A. No.

21 Q. We come to March of 1992, and I want to come

22 back briefly to Mr. Cicak. Mr. Cicak wrote newspaper

23 articles, didn't he?

24 A. I don't recall. I know that he wrote things,

25 but I don't know exactly what it was.

Page 20177

1 Q. You're here saying that this man was of

2 unsound mind in some way. I may have missed it in the

3 newspaper articles, but was he ever challenged at the

4 time of behaving in the way he did and writing in the

5 way he did, simply because of weakness of intellect?

6 A. Anyone can write whatever they want wherever

7 they want. Nobody ever prevented him from doing so,

8 because there is no point responding to everything that

9 appears in the press. That at least is my experience.

10 Q. Cicak, on, for example, I'll just take one

11 date, the 21st of March of 1992, challenged the

12 legality of what you had all done because there had

13 been no referendum of the Croat people. Now, first of

14 all, we know that he was right, there had been no

15 referendum. You've confirmed that already; correct?

16 A. There was no referendum. Yes, that is

17 correct.

18 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour,

19 apologies. I am trying to avoid any objections, but

20 here we're talking about March 1992, and the question

21 of referendum refers to May of 1992, and that is not

22 clarified through the questions. It creates

23 confusion. Could the questions be asked in a more

24 precise way, please.

25 MR. NICE: I'm sorry if --

Page 20178

1 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Yes,

2 Mr. Naumovski, but I think that the question was more

3 general. I do not think that any date was mentioned.

4 That was a question that touched upon -- that was

5 touched upon -- ago whether there were elections or not

6 in the government, and the answer was that the

7 government was not elected in the elections.

8 Now, Mr. Nice, will you please ask a question

9 of the witness.

10 MR. NICE: Yes. Thank you.

11 Q. What Mr. Cicak was objecting to, and you must

12 remember this, is that the parastate or whatever it was

13 that you had created, was illegitimate, was without

14 democratic foundation. That's what he was complaining

15 about, wasn't it?

16 A. As far as Mr. Cicak is concerned, or anyone

17 else for that matter, everybody has the right to say

18 what is legal and what is not legal. If some

19 institutions are unable to operate in the territory of

20 Bosnia and Herzegovina and the people are forced to

21 fight for their survival and is creating -- is building

22 up a structure in order to prevent from being expelled

23 from the territory, I don't see what you can prefix

24 with para, because everybody was fighting for their

25 survival in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and everybody has

Page 20179

1 to express -- can express their view.

2 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

3 Mr. Maric. Will you please try to confine yourself to

4 answers to questions that are asked. Thank you.

5 MR. NICE: Thank you, Your Honour.

6 Q. Just to deal with that last point, if Ms.

7 Verhaag will hold up the three volumes of the lists

8 for -- the government of Sarajevo was publishing laws

9 for the years 1992, 1993, and 1994. Well published.

10 It was still a functioning government, wasn't it?

11 A. That is not correct that they are still

12 enforced today. In 1992 and 1993 the laws could not

13 reach my office in Busovaca, let alone other places.

14 Those laws could reach only as far as the city of

15 Zenica, which was under Muslim control.

16 Q. For the record, they're called Sluzbeni

17 lists. I must move at speed. This man, Cicak, and

18 this is really susceptible to a yes/no answer, was

19 challenging the legitimacy of what you had all done,

20 and he was entirely entitled to do that; correct?

21 A. For the Croatian people, this was legitimate,

22 because we fought for the interests of Croatian people

23 in the territory which were ours and for which we --

24 and where we fought to also allow others to live,

25 because we were at risk. Bosnia and Herzegovina was

Page 20180

1 splitting up. The units of JNA had already taken 70

2 per cent of the territory.

3 Q. If you won't answer that question, answer

4 this one. Why was Mr. Cicak beaten up, please, merely

5 for the expression of democratic views?

6 A. I am not aware of the fact that he was beaten

7 up.

8 Q. Really? As mayor, you had no knowledge of

9 the fact that he had been beaten up, that he had

10 complained to Kordic that he had a newspaper article

11 published saying Kordic's men had done it? No

12 awareness of that at all?

13 A. I don't know anything about it.

14 Q. Were you on holiday in March of 1992, away

15 from your territory or something?

16 A. In March 1992 I was in Busovaca.

17 Q. You're not telling this Chamber the truth,

18 are you, because when the truth is impossible, you have

19 to hide behind amnesia.

20 A. I'm telling the truth about what I know.

21 That is my truth. You can judge for yourself whether

22 this is the truth or not. I have given a solemn

23 declaration and I'm speaking the truth.

24 Q. And you decline or are unable to help this

25 Chamber at all with the detail of what happened to the

Page 20181

1 man publishing articles in favour of democracy, but you

2 nevertheless assert against him that he's a person of

3 mental illness, do you?

4 A. I said what my personal views are on Mr.

5 Cicak.

6 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, on the question of

7 Mr. Cicak's mental illness, the witness had said

8 earlier that he had formed the conclusion that Mr.

9 Cicak was mentally ill because Mr. Cicak had told him

10 that he couldn't fulfill some of his duties. I wanted

11 to ask the witness whether there was anything else.

12 Was there anything in the conduct of Mr. Cicak himself

13 that led you to believe that he was mentally ill?

14 A. Your Honour, Mr. Cicak showed me this

15 certificate and told me that he had been ill, that he

16 had a lot of problems. He had headaches and he had

17 problems with his behaviour. And if somebody would

18 oppose him, he would lose control very quickly. He

19 would become angry.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

21 MR. NICE:

22 Q. When do you say he told you that?

23 A. When we met in '89, we met, and in 1990, I

24 said that he was a member of the Busovaca HDZ.

25 Q. So you're saying he told you all this before

Page 20182

1 you voted him into office; is that right?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. When you --

4 MR. NICE: Sorry.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: If Mr. Cicak had not himself

6 told you this, would you have formed the impression

7 that he was mentally ill?

8 A. I believe the person who volunteers this

9 information to me. I can have my own view about the

10 person, but when a person tells me the truth, then what

11 he tells me I take to be the truth. And then he also

12 was entering into arguments, and, for instance, if he

13 reacted in a certain way, later on he would say, "I did

14 not want to react in this certain way." He couldn't

15 control himself. I knew this man well.

16 MR. NICE:

17 Q. This didn't stop you from voting with him, if

18 the article in Slobodna Bosna of the 22nd of May of

19 1999 is right, it didn't stop you voting with him

20 against Kordic's election, did it, at an early stage?

21 A. What vote? I did not quite understand what

22 vote.

23 Q. You were quoted in that newspaper article as

24 having voted with Florijan Glavocevic and Mr. Cicak

25 against Kordic's election as National Defence Secretary

Page 20183

1 and HDZ General Secretary. Is the newspaper article

2 right?

3 A. That is not correct.

4 Q. I must move forward, I'm afraid. Let's come

5 to the 14th of April.

6 MR. NICE: May the witness please see Exhibit

7 Z76.1.

8 Q. This is a document by way of a receipt for

9 weaponry. Do you remember the circumstances in which

10 Mr. Kordic obtained these particular weapons? They're

11 signed, you see, by his name, at the bottom of the

12 receipt.

13 A. You should know that in the Lasva Valley

14 there are two large factories; BMT produced weapons and

15 Vitezit produced explosives, all kinds of explosives.

16 Q. Let me cut you short because we've heard a

17 lot about this. He demanded these very substantial

18 weapons, didn't he, and he did it in April of 1992 and

19 he wouldn't take no for an answer; do you know that to

20 be the case?

21 A. I don't know about that, that that is how it

22 was framed.

23 Q. Do you have any knowledge of how he was the

24 person signing for this heavy weaponry when he was

25 merely a politician, or just a politician?

Page 20184

1 A. He worked in the defence office in Busovaca

2 in 1992.

3 Q. But I thought you carefully explained to us

4 that the defence office has very limited military

5 functions. Can you explain, please, why this

6 politician was getting heavy weaponry?

7 A. At that time Mr. Dario Kordic worked in the

8 Busovaca municipality where he held the post of the

9 Secretary of National Defence; that is the position he

10 was holding.

11 Q. All right. Let's move on to the Draga

12 barracks. The Draga barracks were emptied of their

13 weapons by the HVO; correct?

14 A. It is true that there was a distribution. I

15 explained in my testimony that there are three barracks

16 in the municipality Busovaca; that at Kacuni, that is,

17 weapons and buildings were overtaken by Muslim units --

18 Q. I don't want you to repeat your testimony.

19 A. -- I'm not repeating my testimony. All I

20 want to say is Draga was allotted to the Croats.

21 Q. After the taking of weapons from the Draga,

22 did the JNA do something unpleasant?

23 A. Of course, because it bombed Busovaca.

24 Q. What you missed out is what happened in

25 between. What happened to the soldiers from the JNA

Page 20185

1 barracks, that is, the JNA soldiers?

2 A. I was present when they were evacuating

3 Draga, and as soon as the soldiers had started on their

4 way to Sarajevo on a bus, I took my car and drove

5 home.

6 Q. At this operation, you were in plain clothes

7 but Kordic was by now wearing a uniform, wasn't he?

8 A. He did wear a uniform, but anyone could put

9 it on.

10 Q. The JNA soldiers, were they taken off

11 somewhere else into the countryside, to a fate, at the

12 time, unknown?

13 A. They, the JNA soldiers, as you know, were not

14 taken anywhere. They headed for Sarajevo.

15 Q. The commander of this operation was Kordic,

16 wasn't he?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Who was?

19 A. Regarding the takeover of the Draga barracks,

20 the crisis staff was in operation then and it was

21 Mr. Florijan Glavocevic and Mr. Hadzimejlic who were

22 designated to take care of the takeover from the JNA.

23 Q. The taking of these weapons from the JNA was

24 by surprise; it was effectively by ambush, wasn't it?

25 A. No, it was not sudden because an agreement

Page 20186

1 had been reached a long time before that. My part of

2 the crisis staff, headed by me, we discussed it with

3 JNA representatives at the Rajlovac barracks. And I

4 can tell you that I was detained on that road by the

5 former JNA, that is, by the forces of the SDS, on the

6 Ilijas bridge, and I was to be liquidated then, me and

7 Mr. Milorad Jovic, Mr. Glavocevic, and Mr. Hadzimejlic;

8 that is, Asim Sunulahpasic and the commander of the

9 then chief of police, Husnija Neslanovic, they can

10 confirm this.

11 Q. I'm going to suggest to you that it was this

12 early miscalculation of the approach to the Draga

13 barracks that led to the JNA's response into the

14 bombing of Busovaca, and that this was all probably led

15 by Kordic; you don't accept that, I imagine.

16 A. Here I repeat, sir, Your Honours, Kordic did

17 not run that operation. The operation was run by

18 Mr. Glavocevic and Mr. Hadzimejlic regarding the

19 takeover of the weaponry and the barracks from the

20 Yugoslav People's Army.

21 Q. Then we come to the next incident, which is

22 the Kaonik camp weapons on May the 9th. The agreement

23 was simply for an equal share of weapons, wasn't it?

24 A. The agreement was reached to share it 50/50,

25 that is, half to go to the Croat and half to the Muslim

Page 20187

1 side.

2 Q. The checkpoint that had been erected, before

3 any armed conflict between you and the Muslims, was a

4 solely HVO checkpoint, wasn't it?

5 A. Yes, because it was in the territory with the

6 Croat operation.

7 Q. Why wasn't it a joint checkpoint if you were

8 still trying to cooperate with the Muslims at that

9 time?

10 A. Because the territories where the Croats were

11 controlling had Croat majorities there.

12 Q. Well, I'm going to suggest to you that all

13 that happened was that the Muslims arrived all in one

14 truck to collect the weapons. Would that be about

15 right?

16 A. They came, as there had been an agreement on

17 the takeover, the Muslims, that is, the majority who

18 had not agreed, because they were headed by Mr. Dzemal

19 Merdan at the Leptir, and I told you yesterday in

20 detail how it all happened. So they wanted to force

21 their entry into the Kaonik barracks so as, in point of

22 fact, to take it over, notwithstanding the agreement,

23 because it was said that 50 per cent of the weaponry

24 should go to the Muslims and 50 per cent to the

25 Croats. And they came to the Leptir disco to take it

Page 20188

1 over.

2 Q. I'm going to suggest to you that what you're

3 saying about a breach of the agreement is made up by

4 you and others in order to try and justify what

5 happened then and thereafter, and they simply turned up

6 to take the weapons they had agreed should be theirs.

7 A. Your Honours, I'm telling the truth, because

8 I know, I was a participant in these matters, because I

9 headed the crisis staff, and I know how the action was

10 carried out to the end.

11 Q. Can we now, then, look at Z100, please, and

12 hear your account on that and your view on it. Just to

13 remind us, I think this is a document that you

14 participated -- in the drafting of which you

15 participated; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. But that you felt unwell before it was

18 completed, and therefore you had to go home before it

19 was signed; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Can you help us at all with at which stage of

22 the document's drafting you started to feel unwell, how

23 much of it we can see as a reflection of your input and

24 how much is after you had to go home?

25 A. The document was drafted -- the whole

Page 20189

1 document was drafted. I left before it was signed.

2 But all it says here was agreed on that occasion.

3 Q. Very well. And then let's come to the

4 signatures, because I just want to be quite sure what

5 you're saying about Mr. Kordic's signature. Can you

6 tell us about that, please?

7 A. I said yesterday that Mr. Ivo Brnada,

8 commander of the municipal HVO staff, military wing,

9 signed this, and Mr. Dario Kordic was only a

10 co-signatory to this. This is a document as a surety,

11 as a guarantor, that it was verified --

12 Q. I see.

13 A. -- to show that he was there.

14 Q. Where does the document say that, please?

15 You're an educated man. We've all seen documents that

16 say "signed in the presence of so-and-so" or

17 "witness." Where does it say that Kordic is signing

18 as -- I think it's a guarantor, is it? Co-signatory or

19 guarantor: Where does it say that?

20 A. Among us it is a practice, it is a practice

21 with us, that the person who signs the act signs it on

22 the right-hand side, and the person who is witness to

23 that signs on the left-hand side.

24 Q. I see. And so we'll have to have a look at a

25 few more orders if that's really your evidence. But

Page 20190

1 let's see what you think about the content of this

2 document after these years and can help us with.

3 Unilateral -- paragraph 1 -- the unilateral

4 termination of the agreement decided that HVO should

5 take all the weapons. Why was that, then? Just

6 because the other side had shown, on your account, an

7 inclination to take more weapons from Kaonik? Is that

8 right?

9 A. Because they did not comply with the

10 agreement.

11 Q. What about the paramilitary formations, the

12 so-called -- number 3: To be given an ultimatum to

13 hand over all their weapons? Why was that imposed?

14 You weren't yet at war with these people. Why were you

15 doing that?

16 A. Because they were falling foul of the

17 agreement. But I must point out that the TO never came

18 under the HVO. And after these events between the 9th

19 and 10th of May, they continued to exist in Busovaca.

20 Q. I see. Well, I'm not going to have time to

21 deal with that for the time being, but let's go on to

22 number 4. No HVO representative has the right to

23 negotiate with representatives of the so-called

24 Territorial Defence and the Patriotic League. Why so?

25 A. Because that agreement was not observed, and

Page 20191

1 if you reach an agreement that something has to be done

2 in such-and-such way, then how can one say there is --

3 how does one proceed to try to reach an agreement if

4 what has been agreed is not observed?

5 Q. Then of course the arrest of the three men.

6 Do you remember telling His Honour Judge Robinson

7 yesterday, I think it was, who would be carrying out

8 the arrest? The police, wasn't it?

9 A. The police.

10 Q. And to whom did they respond? I think you

11 told His Honour the civil side; correct?

12 A. The civilian police was to arrest them, that

13 is, to take them in for interrogation.

14 Q. Do you say that it is under Brnada or

15 under --

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Nice.

17 MR. NICE:

18 Q. Do you say that these police are under

19 Brnada, under Kordic, or under you?

20 A. The civilian police operated under the

21 civilian HVO. As a matter of fact, the crisis staff

22 was still active that evening. The civilian police

23 were still under the supervision of the civilian wing.

24 Q. So who is that, you or Kordic?

25 A. I was the president of the crisis staff. I

Page 20192

1 told you that. And when this was signed, then the

2 crisis staff practically ceased to exist.

3 Q. This document was another step on the way of

4 a takeover of power by an unelected body, wasn't it?

5 Quite simple.

6 A. When you say "unelected" and "illegal," Your

7 Honours, you should know that at such times when you

8 have a crisis on your hands, then there can be no

9 referendum, as you say. It takes time to have a

10 referendum. And these are all pre-war conditions

11 practically, because there was bombing, and there were

12 all sorts of things which are difficult to describe now

13 what the situation was at the time.

14 Q. Why was Merdan beaten up?

15 A. I don't know that he was beaten up. I know

16 that he was interrogated, because he brought in fact

17 people to Leptir illegally, who were not supposed to

18 take part in the negotiations.

19 Q. Then this period of time started on the 11th

20 of May, ended just what, 11 or 12 days later, didn't

21 it, with Z111? If we can look at that, please, Z111.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Again, Mr. Kordic's signature on the

24 left-hand side. This is in the witness position, is

25 it?

Page 20193

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. We can see that there's been a blockade of

3 the city of Busovaca in all directions for the

4 preceding 10 days, and that's now abolished. There's a

5 curfew introduced.

6 We'll come back to number 3 in a minute.

7 Number 4, because the HVO of the Busovaca

8 municipality is leading the whole -- I'm so sorry to

9 the interpreters if I'm going too fast -- the whole

10 organisation of life and defence. The Busovaca

11 Municipal Crisis Command will not do their duties

12 anymore, nor will they take any decisions. This was a

13 takeover, wasn't it, by your party, through the HVO, of

14 your region?

15 A. The Croat Defence Council took over all

16 competencies in order to assume all responsibility for

17 developments on the ground.

18 Q. Now, under item number 3, about the workers

19 of government bodies and municipal assembly workers and

20 of companies immediately organised functioning of the

21 governmental bodies of the Busovaca Municipal

22 Assembly. What about that?

23 MR. NICE: The Chamber will remember that

24 there's got to be an amendment from the English version

25 of the translation of the passage in brackets.

Page 20194

1 Q. What did you interpret number 3 as doing,

2 please?

3 A. As for number 3 here, where it speaks about

4 the desire to organise the life in the territory of the

5 municipality of Busovaca, and invites all workers, all

6 employees, to work in the territory of the municipality

7 of Busovaca without coercion, so that everybody can do

8 their jobs as they wanted to do before. Because I'm

9 telling you, the situation was very difficult and it

10 was increasingly grave from one day to the other, and

11 we were trying to organise it through these orders.

12 Q. We've had evidence in this Court of people

13 saying they were only allowed to return to work, or

14 would only have been allowed to return to work, on

15 terms of an oath of loyalty to the HVO. What do you

16 say to that evidence?

17 A. Nobody ever asked anyone to sign loyalty.

18 Everybody could come and work as he pleased, so nobody

19 ever demanded that anybody sign any loyalty, whether he

20 would be loyal or not.

21 Q. Can you think of anything that was being said

22 by officials or by the proprietors or directors of

23 enterprises? Can you think of anything that was being

24 said to Muslims that they could have misunderstood as a

25 requirement to give an act of fidelity or an oath of

Page 20195

1 fidelity to the HVO?

2 A. Insofar as I'm aware, nobody ever requested

3 that anybody sign any kind of fidelity to anyone. I've

4 already said that. I say it again.

5 Q. There weren't any particularly enthusiastic

6 or committed local people who might have used the

7 changed circumstances as a way of getting rid of Muslim

8 employees, if they weren't prepared in some way to sign

9 up to the HVO?

10 A. I repeat: Nobody ever, never, ever, asked

11 anyone to sign any kind of loyalty. What was pursued

12 was to have people work, to have some kind of peace in

13 the municipality of Busovaca, because the situation was

14 getting graver from one day to the other, and the

15 Croats and Bosniaks and Serbs who lived in those

16 territories had to see that this be organised to the

17 benefit of every man.

18 Q. Well, now, the period of time between this

19 change of circumstances and the end of the year is

20 covered by the documents that you provided yesterday.

21 I may have a few questions to ask you about those after

22 the lunch adjournment, but I'm not in a position to do

23 so at the moment. But tell us, between whatever we're

24 up to now, May 1992 and the end of the year, were

25 people leaving the territory? Muslims, were they

Page 20196

1 leaving the territory?

2 A. They were.

3 Q. Why?

4 A. But also the displaced persons were

5 arriving. I only have to tell you that my family, my

6 wife and my children, were away because there was

7 shelling. The situation was complicated: war in

8 Croatian, war in the territories of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

9 so people feared for their life. Everybody did.

10 Q. In this intervening period, the second half

11 of 1992, perhaps the witness could just help us by

12 looking at a couple of exhibits. Exhibit 120, please.

13 You're telling us, I think, that Mr. Kordic

14 had no military function of any kind; is that right?

15 A. I have said that Mr. Kordic never had

16 anything military. He was only a politician.

17 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm not going to

18 bother with more than one of these documents, but it's

19 just to give the witness an opportunity to deal with

20 one obvious point.

21 If 120 hasn't yet been produced, can I

22 produce it and I'll provide copies later? If I

23 separate it out, original for the witness and English

24 copy for the ELMO. Sorry. I hadn't appreciated it

25 hadn't gone in.

Page 20197

1 Q. What you're looking at there is an order of

2 June 1992, so the same period of time, which says:

3 "The municipal headquarters of the Defence

4 Council in Vares is ordered to send a unit of 30

5 soldiers immediately on receipt of this order to

6 protect the village of Tarcin Do because of an

7 immediate danger of Chetniks attacking the village."

8 And then it's said the units are obliged to

9 stay in the village until weapons are secured.

10 Now, that's a military instruction, isn't

11 it? Do doubts about it?

12 A. This is the first time that I see this order.

13 Q. Well, it's nevertheless a military

14 instruction?

15 A. It can be a political one.

16 Q. I'm so sorry. Ordering a unit of soldiers to

17 move for purposes of defence of a village, is that the

18 sort of thing that politicians were doing regularly?

19 A. Well, there were instances of politicians,

20 because they are concerned for their people, so they

21 would organise higher alertness so that people can

22 defend their lands.

23 Q. I'm so sorry. I don't understand that. But

24 let me -- my mistake, I'm sure. But help me with

25 this: If this is a military order affecting whatever

Page 20198

1 it is, a platoon of 30 soldiers, where is the military

2 signature that gives authority to this instruction?

3 It's not there, is it?

4 A. I've told you that this is the first time I

5 see this. I know that the gentleman was a politician,

6 and perhaps there was a military component from the

7 army commander.

8 Q. Because you see the difficulty, don't you?

9 This is signed by Kordic; it's signed on the right-hand

10 side of the page, just in case there's any significance

11 in the difference. This man was giving military

12 instructions, wasn't he? Wasn't he?

13 A. Perhaps, and political too. I'm not sure.

14 Q. Perhaps you would be good enough to look at

15 this photograph. It doesn't come out terribly well.

16 MR. NICE: Again, I've got the copy

17 immediately available for the ELMO, if that helps,

18 2703.

19 Q. Now, it appears from the background, if you

20 have a look at it closely, this may be up in the

21 Tisovac area. At what part of the period 1992/1993 did

22 you see Mr. Kordic dressed like this, looking like

23 this, and carrying a weapon of that kind?

24 A. Anybody could put on a military uniform, I

25 told you; I also wore it for a time. You should know

Page 20199

1 that at any moment, a man -- even if he was not wearing

2 a uniform, because 14-year-old children to 60-year-old

3 men defended the territories of the municipality. And

4 if a man walks around in civilian clothes, he cannot be

5 in civilian clothes, he had to wear a uniform.

6 Q. That's not actually an answer to the

7 question. What part of the period 1992/1993 did you

8 see Mr. Kordic dressed like this and did you see him

9 carrying a gun like this, this politician?

10 A. He only had a photograph taken of him with

11 the rifle, because he didn't carry one. I know that

12 whenever he would come he never had any weapons. This

13 was just posing for the picture. I also had a picture

14 taken of me with a weapon in the former army, to have

15 it as a memento.

16 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Maric,

17 the question is simple so will you please try to avoid

18 any comments. Did you see Mr. Kordic dressed like

19 this, as a military man, and carrying a weapon, as this

20 photograph shows? Did you ever see him like that or

21 not?

22 A. Mr. Kordic did wear a military uniform but

23 did not carry weapons.

24 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 MR. NICE:

Page 20200

1 Q. At what period of the history did he start

2 being called "Colonel"?

3 A. They started addressing him like that when he

4 first went to Sarajevo for discussions with the

5 representatives of the Bosnian army.

6 Q. Was that the period of time at which he was

7 falling out with Blaskic and starting to take over

8 military authority from Blaskic, as I must suggest to

9 you?

10 A. As far as I know, Messrs. Kordic and Blaskic

11 were never --

12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please

13 repeat the last word. It didn't come out audible.

14 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Would you

15 please repeat for the transcript what you just said,

16 Mr. Maric.

17 A. Your Honours, as far as I know, Messrs.

18 Kordic and Blaskic never had a dispute.

19 MR. NICE:

20 Q. I may come back to that at the end. I'll

21 pass over the balance of 1992 for the time being and

22 come to 1993, and I'll return to 1992 this afternoon if

23 time allows.

24 You tell us in your summary, and I think in

25 evidence, something about Dzemal Merdan instigating a

Page 20201

1 crisis by complaining about a machine-gun. The truth

2 is that in that period of time, 1992 and into 1993, the

3 HVO did patrol with machine-guns on vehicles, didn't

4 it?

5 A. There was a truck with a machine-gun mounted

6 on it which patrolled from one checkpoint to another.

7 Q. It also patrolled in the areas of town, in

8 particular in the Muslim areas.

9 A. That is not correct. They went from the

10 checkpoint at the Busovaca-Kiseljak municipal

11 boundaries towards Zenica, to a place called Grablje.

12 Q. There were also machine-guns, as we've heard

13 from a witness called (redacted), that were posted

14 in the Muslim areas. What about that; true or false?

15 A. Not true.

16 Q. Well, how, then, does Merdan's complaining

17 about a machine-gun have any bearing on what we've been

18 inquiring into?

19 A. I don't know what Mr. Merdan had in mind when

20 he said that.

21 MR. NICE: May the witness see, please --

22 Q. It's not what Mr. Merdan said -- I'm sorry, I

23 must sort this out -- it's what you said. I may have

24 misunderstood it. Paragraph 34. You said this in

25 paragraph 34, you said, "At about the 15th of January

Page 20202

1 of 1993, I went to Kacuni to speak with Dzemal Merdan

2 who had instigated a crisis because an HVO truck with a

3 machine-gun mounted on it was patrolling the road from

4 Kaonik to Kacuni. Claiming that it irritated them, the

5 Muslim troops stopped the truck."

6 Well, was that a crisis?

7 A. Yes, that was a crisis because Kacuni was

8 already filled with the displaced persons who were

9 getting ready for a conflict.

10 Q. What's your evidence that people were getting

11 ready for a conflict as opposed to merely protecting

12 themselves from an increasingly all-powerful local

13 government?

14 A. They couldn't take it any more. I showed you

15 a number of documents yesterday where the government

16 made efforts to achieve normalcy of life, and you could

17 see that 30 tonnes of flour was distributed on a Friday

18 before the conflict which broke out between Sunday and

19 Monday.

20 MR. NICE: Can the witness see 381.4; coming

21 your way.

22 Your Honour, of course I'm not going to

23 introduce more than the necessary minimum of documents,

24 but I must give the witness, as I try generally, the

25 opportunity to deal with contemporaneous accounts from

Page 20203

1 independent sources.

2 Q. This is a document you almost certainly will

3 not have seen before. It's a document from the army

4 that was patrolling the area at the time. I'm afraid

5 it is only in English, and I'll read out the relevant

6 passage to you slowly enough for you to follow it, I

7 trust. It's on the second page, at number 9, in a

8 document that is dated itself the 20th of January, 6.00

9 in the evening.

10 This document says: "The Dutch Transport

11 Battalion report that tensions in Busovaca have

12 increased recently. The BiH commander was stopped in

13 the town by the district HVO police and his weapons and

14 car were taken from him."

15 Would that be correct?

16 A. I don't remember it.

17 Q. It was also reported: "The HVO police in

18 Busovaca had been reinforced by HVO from elsewhere."

19 Was that true?

20 A. Not correct. That is not true.

21 Q. I was wondering whether there was any reason

22 for reinforcing at exactly that time, in January of

23 1993. You say the Dutch Battalion's report or

24 information is incorrect?

25 A. This information is not correct. There were

Page 20204

1 displaced people in Busovaca who had arrived from Jajce

2 and other areas of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I said that

3 yesterday.

4 Q. I -- sorry. Yes, go on.

5 A. There were no units there in Busovaca.

6 MR. NICE: May the witness see 382.3; coming

7 your way.

8 Q. Now, this is a document dated the 21st of

9 January but it is retrospective to a degree. It's a

10 milinfosum, that is, a military report document, and it

11 says these things about your town.

12 On the first page, at number 2: "On the 18th

13 of January, an ICRC convoy was stopped at Busovaca by

14 an HVO checkpoint. The drivers were Muslims from

15 Zenica. They were intimidated and robbed. As they

16 subsequently drove away, shots were fired at them

17 causing two tyres to be punctured."

18 True or false?

19 A. I cannot recall that event. I was the

20 civilian part of the HVO and the checkpoint was manned

21 by the military police.

22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, perhaps you should

23 say what ICRC is.

24 MR. NICE: I'm sorry. Yes.

25 Q. International Committee of the Red Cross.

Page 20205

1 You understood that, did you? I'm sorry if you

2 didn't. The ICRC was a Red Cross convoy.

3 A. I had said that I did not know about that

4 event because the checkpoints were manned by military

5 policemen. So I cannot speak to that event because I

6 don't know about it. Because I was the civilian HVO, I

7 did not receive that information.

8 Q. If we turn to the next page, number 6 --

9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice,

10 sorry to interrupt you.

11 Mr. Maric, are you telling us that there was

12 absolutely nothing in common between the civilian wing

13 of the HVO and the military wing of the HVO, that there

14 was no mutual information/feedback between the two?

15 A. When the structures were established, the

16 military was brought into a military chain of command

17 and the civilian was separated out. So everybody was

18 accountable for their own sector; the military to the

19 military structure and the civilian police to the

20 civilian.

21 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] No, no, no,

22 I'm not interested in the chain of command. I'm

23 talking merely about information. Wasn't there

24 information which circulated from one wing to the other

25 wing of the HVO?

Page 20206

1 A. Sometimes there was.

2 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

3 MR. NICE: I'm grateful to Your Honour.

4 Q. But the stopping in your small town of a Red

5 Cross convoy, with the intimidation and robbing of

6 Muslim drivers, was something that could happen without

7 even coming to your attention; is that really what

8 you're telling us?

9 A. Any intimidation, any, as you put it -- I

10 don't know how you put it -- I condemn such actions.

11 Q. Second page, item 6, this is what the

12 International Observers, Mr. Maric, said about the

13 Kacuni checkpoint. They said that "The BiH in Busovaca

14 have established a checkpoint at Kacuni. This is the

15 only BiH checkpoint between Vitez and Kiseljak and is

16 located just north of the BiH Brigade headquarters. It

17 is manned by 15 to 20 soldiers with automatic weapons

18 and an RPG-7. Anti-tank mines are also said to be laid

19 at the checkpoint."

20 Now, is that about accurate?

21 A. Correct. They had a checkpoint at Kacuni.

22 Q. And the description of the number of soldiers

23 and equipment is about right, is it?

24 A. Well, I believe that occasionally there were

25 even more; 20, and up to 30 perhaps.

Page 20207

1 Q. Did you ever go there yourself?

2 A. Only when I spoke to Mr. Dzemal Merdan,

3 before the conflict, and I also -- based on the

4 information I received, even the UNPROFOR

5 representatives mentioned this checkpoint, because at

6 that time I had contacts with them as well.

7 Q. We come to the 20th of January of 1993, and I

8 think you volunteered or were asked about and told us

9 something about an incident occurring at a checkpoint

10 involving another politician; do you remember that?

11 A. According to the information I received,

12 Mr. Ignac Kostroman had been stopped at that

13 checkpoint.

14 Q. The date? The date of the incident, please?

15 A. The 20th or 21st. I don't know exactly but I

16 think it was more likely the 20th of January, 1993.

17 Q. Can you help me, please, with this: You're

18 not the first witness whose chosen a base of dates, a

19 bracket of dates, of the 20th/21st. What is it that

20 fixes one of two dates in your mind, please?

21 A. That is not why I choose it. This is what

22 was happening. The crisis was intensifying.

23 Q. Why, when asked about something, do you say,

24 "Well, it was either the 20th or the 21st"? For

25 example, have you discussed this with the other

Page 20208

1 witnesses in the case?

2 A. I was informed that -- the information came

3 and I -- and this was seven years ago. I cannot recall

4 exactly, but I know that the shelling started on the

5 25th, when the fiercest fighting took place in

6 Busovaca. And at the same checkpoint the day before,

7 on the 24th, Mr. Ivica Petrovic was killed, and another

8 gentleman, a taxi driver, also was killed at that

9 checkpoint on the 24th. And early on the 25th, and I

10 mentioned that yesterday, there was heavy attack of the

11 Bosniaks on Busovaca.

12 Q. And what do you say you were told had

13 happened to this politician on the 20th or 21st?

14 A. That he had been stopped and harassed, that

15 he was prevented from reaching his destination.

16 Q. Did you discover how it was that the incident

17 ended?

18 A. I don't have detailed information on that.

19 Q. That same night did anything else happen that

20 you can recall?

21 A. I recall that Muslim premises were blown up

22 and that Mr. Mirsad Delija was seriously injured and

23 that unfortunately he died on route to the hospital.

24 Q. Now, those attacks, both on the shop premises

25 and on Mirsad Delija, they were connected to the

Page 20209

1 incident at the checkpoint, weren't they?

2 A. That was the result of those events.

3 Q. My mistake for not following the answer. The

4 attacks on the shop premises and the attack on Mirsad

5 Delija followed from the incident at the checkpoint,

6 didn't they?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Because they were by way of reaction to

9 interference with a politician at the checkpoint.

10 That's what you mean, isn't it? Isn't it?

11 A. Mr. Ignac Kostroman was harassed at that

12 checkpoint.

13 Q. And that led -- I'll come back to that in a

14 minute, but on your evidence, that led to the

15 destruction of the --

16 A. It resulted in -- this incident resulted in

17 people who were in that area. It angered them, so they

18 went and they blew up these premises.

19 Q. And then they went and murdered Delija?

20 A. He wasn't murdered; he was seriously

21 injured. He died on the way to hospital. That is the

22 report that I received.

23 Q. He was called out of his house and shot and

24 he died. Isn't that murder?

25 A. It is a murder, since the man eventually

Page 20210

1 died. I condemn such acts.

2 Q. But for the avoidance of any doubt -- we've

3 now got to it -- these acts on the people of Busovaca,

4 their premises, and the man Delija, flowed from the

5 incident at the checkpoint incident involving a

6 politician?

7 A. Regardless of who it was, yes, it was a

8 politician who was there. But I condemn any kind of

9 excessive acts. I said so.

10 Q. The man Delija died because it was his

11 brother who had stopped the politician, and the

12 murderers went to his family home and they found the

13 wrong brother. That's about right, isn't it?

14 A. I did not get such a report. What I can say

15 is what I see for myself and what is presented to me,

16 and this was presented to me in this way.

17 Q. Now, the fact that this attack on Busovaca

18 Muslims was connected to the stopping of a politician

19 was well-known, was common currency, in the

20 conversation of Busovaca at the time; correct? We've

21 already heard other evidence about there being rumours

22 about this, but please confirm it. It was well-known,

23 it was talked about?

24 A. I told you my opinion.

25 Q. You told me what you discovered through being

Page 20211

1 in, of course, a position of some authority and having

2 an inquiry and so on, but I still want an answer to the

3 question, please. The fact that these attacks were

4 retaliation for what had happened to a politician were

5 well-known and widely discussed in Busovaca at the

6 time?

7 A. I repeat: I mentioned what the report on

8 that incident was that I received.

9 Q. Well, if you won't answer that question, will

10 you answer this one: But the rumours at the time were

11 that the politician was not Kostroman, but Kordic who

12 was stopped; correct?

13 A. It was Mr. Kostroman who was stopped.

14 Q. Now, then, about this report: You received a

15 report. Where is it?

16 A. That report is in the archive.

17 Q. The same archive as that from which these

18 documents come?

19 A. I said the entire archive is at the

20 municipality, and I left the municipality in 1994, in

21 April.

22 Q. And have remained an active politician, in

23 various guises, in the same area ever since?

24 A. Yes, that is correct. I remained an active

25 politician and continue to be so, and I am a

Page 20212

1 representative in a legislative body.

2 MR. NICE: Might that be a convenient

3 moment? And although I shall have to excise a

4 considerable number of topics, I think, in the

5 circumstances, I can properly do so and conclude by the

6 end of the afternoon session.

7 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

8 Mr. Nice, for being so cooperative and for the way in

9 which you conducted your cross-examination. Of course,

10 you are always entitled to ask all the relevant

11 questions. That you do. We appreciate the way you did

12 it.

13 And now we shall adjourn. We shall make a

14 break and we shall resume at half past 2.00. We shall

15 work until half past 4.00. I am not -- now, I am not

16 encouraging you, but if you will need additional time,

17 then Judge Robinson and I shall be ready to consider

18 it. Thank you.

19 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.01 p.m.







Page 20213

1 --- On resuming at 2.35 p.m.

2 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] I would just

3 like to say that Judge Robinson drew my attention to a

4 problem of translation from French into English. I

5 said, "Thank you, Mr. Nice, for being so cooperative,"

6 but I did not say in French "for the way you conducted

7 your cross-examination." It was the interpreter who

8 added that. So would you please strike that out, what

9 I said, "Thank you for your cooperation," and what I

10 meant was by taking care of the time. I also wanted to

11 thank you, Mr. Nice, for condensing your

12 cross-examination within the time frame. I also said

13 that it wasn't a matter of five or ten minutes; you can

14 always, if necessary, use a couple of minutes more in

15 order to enable this witness to be able to leave this

16 weekend from The Hague. So that was what I wanted to

17 say.

18 Mr. Nice, please go on now with the

19 cross-examination. You may proceed.

20 JUDGE ROBINSON: [Response obscured by

21 translation]

22 MR. NICE: No problem.

23 Q. Document 381.3, please, coming up. This is a

24 document, the very last page of which is almost

25 illegible in the copy form produced. I have the

Page 20214

1 original here. It's barely more legible there but I've

2 been able, or to be precise, Ms. Verhaag has been able

3 to make out most of what's there, and I'll read it out

4 what it contains for completeness.

5 Mr. Maric, this is a military document, the

6 20th of January of 1993, and it deals with Busovaca on

7 the third page, at the foot of the third page, and it

8 reads as follows: "The BiH in Busovaca area have

9 erected a new checkpoint at Kacuni. This is the only

10 checkpoint on route from Vitez to Kiseljak and is

11 located north of the brigade headquarters, manned by

12 approximately 15 to 20 soldiers who are equipped with

13 automatic weapons." That's what we heard, I think,

14 before.

15 It goes on to say that: "Reports from the

16 soldiers during daylight hours stated that the BiH had

17 laid" -- now the last page is illegible on the copy

18 form, but it reads roughly like this -- "a number of

19 mines at the checkpoint," and then there's reference to

20 information from the Dutch that the mines had been

21 lifted as darkness fell, and the comment that "this is

22 another indication of the spread of mistrust through

23 the Busovaca-Travnik-Vitez area."

24 Would you agree with those comments of the

25 military men?

Page 20215

1 A. As for the comment these are units which were

2 coming there and they could see, if it says so, about

3 what happened at the checkpoint, that is proof to me.

4 Q. The next exhibit is 385, which is already an

5 exhibit, and this, Mr. Maric, is a document dated the

6 21st of January, but it's retrospective to a limited

7 degree. It says of Busovaca, on page 2, the following,

8 and I'll read it slowly. It refers to the earlier

9 document, and it then says: [as read] "Dutch report

10 that the new BiH checkpoint in Kacuni was put in place

11 to prevent HVO reinforcements coming from Kiseljak or

12 Kresevo. The local BiH commander states that these

13 reinforcements arrived during the evening of the 20th

14 of January and were turned back at the checkpoint."

15 Now, is that correct?

16 This is a contemporaneous document and a

17 contemporaneous complaint by the BiH. Is that why the

18 checkpoint was put up?

19 A. Well, this is the first time I hear about

20 these documents. I know that no units, apart from

21 those that were in Busovaca, ever arrived there.

22 Q. Yes, but is it right that reinforcements were

23 coming from Kiseljak and Kresevo and that was what

24 concerned the BiH commander? You were there. Please

25 help us.

Page 20216

1 A. I know nothing about it because I was not

2 aware of that, and there were no reinforcements

3 coming.

4 Q. It goes on to say this: "Tensions increased

5 in Busovaca during late afternoon. Between 2000 and

6 2100 hours, two HVO checkpoints were erected at either

7 end of the town centre. At approximately the same time

8 a quad 4 by .5, mounted on a flatbed," and that, I

9 think, is a shorthand description of a weapon mounted

10 on a flatbed lorry, "was deployed on the road south of

11 the town. All main routes in and out of Busovaca were

12 then controlled. Between 2100 and 2.00 the following

13 morning," I summarise, "the Dutch reported a number of

14 explosions, and on the 21st, the daylight recce,"

15 reconnoitre, "confirmed that eight shops or kiosks had

16 been badly damaged by fire and some form of

17 explosives. The Dutch believe that these shops, which

18 are all Muslim, were possibly damaged by grenades.

19 Both HVO checkpoints were removed on the 21st of

20 January. A local source reported to the Dutch

21 Battalion that a number of families in Busovaca had

22 sent their children to stay with friends in Zenica,"

23 and the comment was, "the action of the 20/21 of

24 January appears to be a preplanned, coordinated attack

25 on the Muslim population."

Page 20217

1 Now, are there any facts in what I have read

2 out to you that you dispute?

3 A. As for that date, it is not true at all that

4 there was any shelling. Yes, there was tension, and

5 I've already pointed out that that evening some shops

6 were blown up by explosives.

7 Q. So you don't challenge, as the man on the

8 spot at the time, disagree with anything that's said in

9 that report?

10 A. I do not agree with all of it. Something is

11 correct in part because, yes, there were shops which

12 blew up. Not only Muslim; there were also Croat shops.

13 Q. Very well. Next Exhibit, please, is 392.

14 And while they're coming to you, Mr. Maric, I'm

15 presenting to you the contemporaneous views of

16 independent observers so we can, through you, get a

17 correct account of what was happening on these

18 important days.

19 This document is dated the 25th of January,

20 and it's another military document, but it reviews

21 matters that have happened in the previous seven days.

22 And on the third page it simply says again, at letter

23 F:

24 "Tension between Muslims and Croats increased

25 at the beginning of the week. On the 20th of January,

Page 20218

1 1993, a new roadblock was established by the Bosnian

2 army near Kacuni, manned by 20 soldiers with automatic

3 weapons, in order to reduce the level of HVO

4 reinforcements from Kiseljak/Kresevo."

5 So again it's the same point. Perhaps I

6 needn't actually have troubled with that one. My

7 error.

8 Now, what you tell us is, amongst other

9 things, and this is paragraph 37 of your affidavit, you

10 say there was an attack on the 25th of January, don't

11 you?

12 A. On the 25th of January, 1993, the attack of

13 Muslim forces on Busovaca began in the early hours of

14 the morning.

15 Q. Now, you were, and the other officials in

16 Busovaca, in contact from time to time with the

17 military people who drove by in their white vehicles,

18 weren't you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You also tell us, unless -- I think, in

21 relation to this part of the history, that there were

22 lists obtained from a captured Muslim soldier

23 containing the names of neighbours who were to be

24 liquidated. Is that right?

25 A. It is.

Page 20219

1 Q. Did you see this document yourself or is this

2 the stuff of rumour?

3 A. It is not rumours. I saw this document.

4 Q. Where is the document?

5 A. It should be at the military police.

6 Q. Such a document, if it is existed, is exactly

7 the sort of document that you would show to the

8 military -- the independent international military

9 observers, isn't it?

10 A. I said when the conflict broke out, that is,

11 on the 25th, I was at home.

12 Q. You're not --

13 A. -- in Podjele. I spent there the whole day.

14 Q. Please listen to the question again. The

15 type of document you describe having seen is exactly

16 the sort of document that the warring parties, if and

17 when they became warring parties, would show to

18 UNPROFOR; correct?

19 A. Sir, Your Honours, I wanted to explain. It

20 was some 15 days later that I met the monitors.

21 Q. When did you see the document? Who had it?

22 A. The commander of the military police.

23 Q. Name?

24 A. The commander of the military police at the

25 time was Mr. Cosic.

Page 20220

1 Q. So Mr. Cosic was in a position to give an

2 account of this and to show the document to the

3 UNPROFOR if he had wanted to?

4 A. I don't know if he communicated with

5 UNPROFOR, but I did see the document.

6 Q. He could either communicate with UNPROFOR or

7 he could communicate with the military in Busovaca,

8 couldn't he? This is an important piece of

9 information.

10 A. I said that I was the civilian authority in

11 Busovaca, so that as far as military matters are

12 concerned, it's up to military units. It's within

13 their jurisdiction.

14 Q. And you saw this list. What did it say? Did

15 it have a title on the top: "Neighbours to be

16 liquidated"? Or how do you know what it was? Tell

17 us.

18 A. The document said that every neighbour should

19 shoot his neighbour.

20 Q. An absolutely astonishing document; you'll

21 agree with that, won't you? An extraordinary thing to

22 see, even in the troubled times of Busovaca and Central

23 Bosnia; yes?

24 A. Of course, that is, to kill a man, a man to

25 kill a man, and they lived together until a few moments

Page 20221

1 ago, that's a disgrace.

2 Q. And by whom was this document signed, or

3 where did it come from?

4 A. I don't know who signed it. The order was

5 not signed.

6 Q. But in any event -- it wasn't signed? What

7 did you say? You first of all said, "I don't know who

8 signed it," and then you said, "The order wasn't

9 signed." Well, which one is it?

10 A. I do not know who signed it, because it is

11 not signed.

12 Q. Now, you told us that the document should

13 still exist in someone's archive. Whose archive is

14 that? The police archive?

15 A. Of the military police.

16 Q. And where may that archive be found, please?

17 A. I don't really know exactly. I'm telling you

18 that in 1994 I left Busovaca from those parts, so that

19 I can't know where it is. The archive should be in

20 Busovaca, but where is it now? I do not know how you

21 came by the documents that you have.

22 Q. And being shown this document, you weren't

23 shown it on the basis that you shouldn't tell anyone

24 else about it. Presumably, once you saw it, you had to

25 tell other people; it was such an astonishing

Page 20222

1 document. Wouldn't that be right?

2 A. Who should I tell about it when I didn't

3 communicate at the time? I'm telling you that it was

4 about 15 days later that I spoke to the leaders of the

5 SFOR, or rather the then UNPROFOR. And I didn't have

6 the document with me to say, "Here, look what's being

7 done."

8 Q. And since you see the point that's coming, at

9 no time have you ever mentioned the existence of such

10 an astonishing document to the International Community,

11 with whom you regularly spoke; correct?

12 A. I can say what I see and show, so that I can

13 document it to every person. But at that time I did

14 not have the document with me to present it to the

15 gentlemen that I spoke to.

16 MR. NICE: 395.2, please.

17 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel.

18 MR. NICE: 395.2, please, with my apologies.

19 Q. Mr. Maric, there was no attack by the BiH.

20 As we're going to see from the independent observers,

21 there turned out to be exchanges, but there was no

22 attack. This is a document dated the 25th of

23 January -- yes, 25th, 26th -- and at item 17 on page 4

24 of the document, as we have it, it says this about

25 Busovaca:

Page 20223

1 "The situation in Busovaca deteriorated.

2 Several roads in the area were declared out-of-bounds

3 for humanitarian convoys by UNPROFOR. A BiH army

4 roadblock at Gusti Grab, near Busovaca, prevented all

5 road movement north from Kiseljak. HVO and BiH forces

6 around this village exchanged mortar and small arms

7 fire, while some house burning began. HVO reportedly

8 hold the high ground around and seem to be adopting a

9 more aggressive attitude than the BiH forces."

10 Do you have any quarrel with any of that?

11 A. Your Honours, the 25th of January, 1993, in

12 the morning, when it started, this fighting, I was at

13 home. And you are telling me there was no shelling. I

14 affirm there was, because dozens of shells fell on my

15 village too. Snipers who were north of my house, that

16 is, Strane, which is a Muslim area, snipers fired in

17 the direction of my village. It was a fierce attack.

18 And nobody can tell me that there was no shelling when

19 I went through it.

20 Q. Finally, please, 423, coming your way. A

21 slightly longer entry but it comes to the end of this

22 period of time.

23 On the first page of this document, which is

24 dated the 30th of January, it sets out something about

25 the arrangements made for a ceasefire in the

Page 20224

1 Kacuni/Busovaca area.

2 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I apologise,

3 Your Honours.

4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]

5 Mr. Naumovski, please.

6 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I apologise,

7 I didn't really want to cut in. But in the middle

8 paragraph which refers to meetings between the BiH and

9 HVO, an annex A is mentioned, so that my objection is

10 to the completeness of the document, because this

11 document should also be accompanied by the annex if

12 this document is to be used. It's the second passage,

13 second paragraph, on the first page of this document.

14 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice,

15 could you please help us? Could you please assist us?

16 MR. NICE: If we have the annex, we'll

17 produce it. I'm not sure if we've got it. I'm not

18 certain we have. No. The document is all that we

19 have.

20 JUDGE BENNOUNA: What paragraph are you

21 referring to?

22 MR. NICE: Foot of the first page, not the

23 middle of -- I'm only covering the middle of the page

24 for introductory purposes. I'm going to the third

25 paragraph, paragraph 3, which sets out the findings in

Page 20225

1 relation to Busovaca.

2 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Please

3 proceed.


5 Q. This reports in relation to Busovaca and

6 Kacuni: "An LO team spoke with Edin Beganovic at the

7 BiH headquarters of the 333rd Brigade at Kacuni. Edin

8 stated he was the officer responsible for morale,

9 information, and religion. He believed that the

10 Muslims in Busovaca (between the ages of 16 and 65) had

11 been arrested and detained either at the secondary

12 school at Busovaca or the Mediapan factory. Edin

13 reported the conflict had started when the Muslims had

14 ignored the HVO demands to hand in their weapons on the

15 20th of January."

16 I'm going to pause there for a minute. He's

17 right in reporting, isn't he, that Muslims were

18 required to hand in their weapons on the 20th of

19 January.

20 A. I am not aware at all that anybody asked for

21 weapons from the Muslims.

22 Q. I see. It goes on, then, to say this:

23 "Approximately 50 HVO extremists led by Anto Sliskovic

24 were then reported to have destroyed many Muslim

25 properties and to have killed one BiH soldier on the

Page 20226

1 night of the 20/21 of January."

2 Is it right that it was Sliskovic's men who

3 committed the crimes you've told us about this morning?

4 A. I don't know whose men were they.

5 Q. You really can't help us at all.

6 A. I cannot help you at all with this.

7 Q. "Edin reported that 50-100 BiH soldiers who

8 lived in the northern part of Busovaca started to

9 prepare defensive positions on Kardic hill. The HVO

10 persuaded the BiH soldiers to give up their defensive

11 positions and these soldiers were subsequently

12 arrested."

13 Can you confirm that is true?

14 A. When there were talks about a ceasefire, when

15 that was supposed to be arranged, then it was said that

16 all trenches should be covered, filled in; however, the

17 Muslim units did not respect that, they went on

18 digging.

19 Q. So broadly speaking you accept the accuracy

20 of this but you put a different interpretation on it;

21 is that right?

22 A. I'm speaking the truth, Your Honours.

23 Q. The report of the International Observers

24 goes on: "Edin stated that the 333rd Brigade's area of

25 responsibility was the front line around Maglaj. Since

Page 20227

1 tensions between Muslims and Croats had risen, these

2 forces were withdrawn back to the Kacuni area. He

3 stated they were keen to negotiate with the Croats in

4 order to effect both body and prisoner exchanges."

5 True?

6 A. It is the gentleman who is saying that. If

7 it is true, why were they withdrawing towards

8 Busovaca? Why weren't they defending the areas around

9 Maglaj, from whence they came? In other words, they

10 were supposed to attack the Croats; that is what one

11 can conclude.

12 Q. All right. Let's read on and see what the

13 other side said. "The liaison officer team returned to

14 Busovaca and spoke to the HVO commander Jadsinovic. He

15 stated that Lendo's forces, that is to say, the forces

16 of the BiH from Novi Travnik, had attacked the Croat

17 village of Busovaca from the direction of," and then he

18 gives a direction, "at 1500 hours today," and the day

19 of the report is the 30th of January, "resulting in

20 three Croat deaths."

21 Now, is that part of it true or false?

22 A. That is true.

23 Q. "He claimed to have intercepted a fax message

24 from Lendo to Mekic which listed the five positions in

25 Busovaca which should be attacked. He stated that BiH

Page 20228

1 artillery positions in the village of Grablje shelled

2 Busovaca." Now, is that true?

3 A. That report says that the BiH troops were

4 attacking. We only defended ourselves.

5 Q. I was reading it out for you for comment if

6 there's anything wrong, you see. It then goes on, if I

7 haven't missed anything, "The shelling was at 1700

8 hours this evening resulting in one house being

9 destroyed and two Croat deaths. Jadsinovic believed

10 that the BiH had both 105- and 122-military artillery

11 pieces, as well as 82- and 122-millimetre mortars. He

12 stated that the front line between the HVO or BiH

13 forces passed through," and then he sets out the

14 villages concerned which I needn't trouble you with,

15 unless anybody wants to know, at the moment.

16 Now, does that appear to be accurate so far

17 as what's being said on your side?

18 A. That is correct.

19 Q. All right. We do not find there, in the

20 narrative of these five days, a starting point for what

21 happened other than the incident on the 20th of January

22 with the blowing up of the premises and the murder of

23 Delija. Now, was that what started all this?

24 A. I said a while ago how things developed, what

25 the situation was in the Busovaca area, and I don't

Page 20229

1 want to repeat myself. Whatever I said previously is

2 correct.

3 Q. There was one more that I want your comment

4 on. Document 390.3, it's just slightly back a few

5 days. My mistake. It's for the 25th of January.

6 So again this is right in the middle of the

7 time when you say there was an attack, and if we look

8 at the first page and the first paragraph, about six

9 lines down, where it's dealing with Bosnia, and Central

10 Bosnia generally, but it says: "The Busovaca-Kiseljak

11 route is now reported as clear for UN vehicles;

12 however, the recommendation is that soft-skinned

13 vehicles do not use this route either. BritBat will

14 patrol the routes and try to establish when free

15 passage for all vehicles is possible. The main problem

16 on the Busovaca-Kiseljak route is in the village of

17 Kacuni. This roadblock is controlled by the BiH," and

18 then it deals with what the soldiers are going to do.

19 At the third page, item 7, it says this,

20 under the assessment of the command: "Busovaca area.

21 Busovaca and the surrounding area has been the scene of

22 fighting during the day between Croat and Muslim

23 forces. The CO," commander officer, "has reported that

24 he has seen 20 Muslim houses burning in the area. He

25 assesses that this action represents ethnic cleansing

Page 20230

1 by the Croats against the Muslims."

2 True?

3 A. The areas mentioned up at Kacuni, where

4 Croats lived, about 1.200 people were expelled there, I

5 also mentioned that, and how many houses were burned.

6 I also said in my outline how many Muslim houses were

7 burned or damaged.

8 Q. They are not figures that I'm in a position

9 to, and I don't, accept.

10 Let's move forward in time from January,

11 reminding ourselves that it was in the beginning of

12 March that you called on President Tudjman. Did you

13 get any minutes of the meeting that you had with

14 President Tudjman?

15 A. I don't.

16 Q. Did anybody?

17 A. I don't know who has the minutes but I

18 don't.

19 Q. Paragraph 50 in your summary deals with the

20 imam. You gave us an account of how you had to take

21 some time to think about whether he could go or not; is

22 that right?

23 A. Correct, because I wanted the imam to be

24 present in Busovaca because he was needed there. He

25 was a religious leader, and whenever a religious leader

Page 20231

1 leaves an area, those who follow him feel differently

2 too without the hodza or imam.

3 Q. Did you discuss his predicament with anyone

4 else?

5 A. I thought for a long time what to do, because

6 I know how someone can feel in a community where he is

7 a minority. And then I reached a decision that

8 Mr. Enver Prolaz could leave the area of Busovaca, and

9 I regret his having left.

10 Q. He was effectively a hostage for a time, as

11 he was described by some of the international

12 observers. That would be correct, wouldn't it?

13 A. It is correct that he couldn't move, but, you

14 know, these were wartime circumstances. Because

15 everybody is concerned about their own life.

16 Q. And the reason you took some time was so that

17 you could discuss it with Kordic, whose approval you

18 required?

19 A. That is not correct.

20 Q. I turn now to April and to Ahmici. But

21 before we come to Ahmici itself, I want you, please, to

22 help us with what you say -- let me just find it --

23 about preparations made by the BiH before the 15th.

24 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm sorry about

25 this. Will you just give me one second. A document

Page 20232

1 has been incorrectly numbered, but I can press on while

2 we're finding it.

3 Q. What do you say was the development of --

4 what do you say was the chronology of events relating

5 to Kuber and its significance?

6 A. Yesterday I provided information on how, in

7 the afternoon hours, heavy attack was launched by the

8 Muslim forces on Kuber, and Kuber is a feature which is

9 exposed from the direction of Zenica, from where the

10 ABiH units attacked the territory of Busovaca.

11 Q. When do you say they went there?

12 A. I said that this was in the afternoon hours

13 of the 15th of April, 1993. Muslim forces from the

14 direction of Zenica attacked the territory of Busovaca

15 municipality.

16 Q. They were already, were they, on the 15th of

17 April, on the feature mounting an attack? That's your

18 evidence, is it?

19 A. Yes. They were already attacking, and then

20 there was one area towards Vitez, that was one

21 direction, and then from Kuber towards Podjele, and the

22 areas adjacent to Busovaca.

23 Q. They held this feature and were able to

24 attack your hometown from it; is that right?

25 A. Correct. They attacked the territory of

Page 20233

1 Busovaca municipality.

2 Q. What you just told these Judges is quite

3 untrue. Would you like to have a look, please, at

4 Exhibit 684. It's an outstanding exhibit.

5 While it's being found, let me make it quite

6 clear, Mr. Maric. I'm suggesting to you that you've

7 corrupted the order of events in order to try to give

8 an excuse for what happened on the 16th of April at

9 Ahmici and elsewhere, and that what you're saying is

10 not true. Do you understand?

11 A. I am telling the truth, Your Honours.

12 Q. This document, of which you must have the

13 original before you, is signed by Colonel Blaskic on

14 the 16th of April, but not only on the 16th of April;

15 late in the evening -- well, in the evening of the 16th

16 of April, at 1945 hours. And it reads:

17 "Battle orders for the defence of Kuber.

18 Extremist Muslim forces are advancing from the

19 direction of Gornje Zenica towards Kuber with the

20 intention of taking Kuber or cutting it off. Your

21 mission is to deploy reinforcements in Kuber with your

22 best-prepared and ablest forces, and defend Kuber

23 unflaggingly. Minimum force strength is a company.

24 Coordinate your operations with the Viteska Brigade,

25 because Kuber must not fall. Upon occupying the

Page 20234

1 defence lines, report to me in writing."

2 It speaks only of Muslim forces advancing and

3 of a mission to take the feature.

4 A. Your Honours, the conflict started in the

5 afternoon hours of 15th of April. That is when Kuber

6 was attacked. That is when the fighting started.

7 Q. Would you like to explain this document to

8 us?

9 A. What I'm saying is true. And on the 16th the

10 ABiH army units were attacking Busovaca, and they were

11 grouping and attacking every day.

12 Q. What preparations for events on the 16th of

13 April had been made by the military, to your knowledge?

14 A. I said that I was the head of the civilian

15 HVO. I have practically nothing to do with the

16 military side.

17 Q. You say that.

18 MR. NICE: I'm afraid that the document I'd

19 like to lay on the ELMO is untranslated because it is

20 only just available. Perhaps not only just available.

21 No, it's only just selected. But may I nevertheless

22 lay one document on the ELMO. Mr. Naumovski wants to

23 say something.

24 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

25 just what we have been saying in principle, not to use

Page 20235

1 the documents which have not been translated. I think

2 that that is how our own documents were handled. So

3 the objection is not to use the document because it

4 does not have a translation attached.

5 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Yes,

6 Mr. Nice. It is exactly what we had decided.

7 MR. NICE: Your Honour, unlike the position

8 of the Defence, we can't know in advance what a witness

9 is going to say; we can't then know everything that's

10 going to be relevant. They're always in a different

11 position, having had the statement for months or

12 years. If a witness comes along and says he's never

13 taken any part in military matters, and a document, a

14 short document, exists which could show the contrary,

15 in our submission --

16 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] If it's a

17 document that we are just using, we decided also to put

18 it on the ELMO and then let the witness read the

19 document and we will use the interpretation, in case it

20 is a short document, obviously.

21 MR. NICE: Might we have it for the witness

22 to look at it while it's on the ELMO.

23 Q. That's a document about the Home Guard, it's

24 signed by you, and there's one other to a similar

25 effect where you, I think, are appointing people to the

Page 20236

1 Home Guard. If you'd just like to look at this one as

2 well on the ELMO. They needn't be produced. These are

3 military matters and you're signing orders, aren't you?

4 A. I signed this document because this was

5 security of the facilities of vital interest, like the

6 PTT, and the Home Guard units were supposed to protect

7 it, to provide security for it, the Home Guards

8 consisting of older men.

9 MR. NICE: I needn't bother with the other

10 one, because I must make more speed. Thank you.

11 Q. And that document was simply over the one

12 signature, namely, your signature, wasn't it?

13 A. Correct, my signature, because I wanted to

14 protect the buildings of vital interest to the Busovaca

15 municipality.

16 MR. NICE: Exhibit 861, please.

17 THE WITNESS: Your Honours, I would like to

18 ask for a five-minute break. I am a diabetic and I

19 need to use the bathroom, please.

20 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] In which

21 case we are going to make a break and we will be back

22 at 3.40. So we'll start again at 3.40.

23 --- Break taken at 3.26 p.m.

24 --- On resuming at 3.42 p.m.

25 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Maric, I

Page 20237

1 hope you're feeling better now.

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your

3 Honours.

4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Needless to

5 say, if you are not feeling well, if you have any

6 problem during your testimony, please let us know.

7 Mr. Nice, evidently we have to include the

8 break and we shall work, therefore, until quarter past

9 four.

10 MR. NICE: Yes. I can tell the Court that to

11 finish at a quarter past four will inevitably involve

12 my simply pruning large chunks, and I won't be able to

13 raise all issues I probably should. I'm in the Court's

14 hands. But let me press on, in any event.

15 Q. 861 is a certificate, if you'd like to look

16 at it, please. Have you got the original in front of

17 you? It's a certificate. I don't think he has got the

18 original. It's only the English version on the ELMO.

19 This is a certificate signed by you -- he should have

20 861.1 -- here it is.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Have you got it? That's the original, if you

23 would just like to have a look at that, which is a

24 document signed by you saying that HVO members should

25 not harass a particular person who is a Muslim person,

Page 20238

1 of course, and Grubesic, you, and Kordic signed the

2 document. Harassment was going on, wasn't it?

3 A. As the displaced persons from other areas

4 kept arriving -- and I pointed out that first it was

5 the displaced people from Jajce after the fall of

6 Jajce, and then the Zenica Croats who were coming to

7 the Busovaca municipality -- their numbers grew. They

8 wanted to find shelter for themselves and they harassed

9 the Bosniak/Muslim population, which we wanted to

10 prevent at any cost, so as to prevent their being

11 expelled from their homes and harassed in other ways.

12 Q. It says here, "Busovaca HVO members," not

13 incomers. It couldn't be clearer. The HVO was

14 harassing people in Busovaca.

15 A. Your Honours, members of the HVO were people,

16 Croats, who were coming -- who had found themselves

17 there. They were incorporated into the Croatian armed

18 forces. They came from Jajce, Zenica, and later on,

19 Travnik. All this complicated the situation. They

20 were incorporated into the units.

21 Q. Exhibit 926, please. While that's being

22 found, I can tell you what it's about. It's about a

23 meeting an independent observer had with the imam of

24 Busovaca, and the imam spoke of you and he spoke of the

25 problems of the Muslims in Busovaca. It's annex K in

Page 20239

1 the witness McLeod's report. He spoke of asking you to

2 give them, the Muslims, protection and to give them a

3 telephone line, and complained of Muslims' houses being

4 taken over by Croats.

5 MR. NICE: If the usher would give that to

6 Ms. Verhaag, she can find it, or it's annex K,

7 whichever.

8 Q. Was what the imam told the investigating

9 person correct?

10 A. As far as what the imam said, I pointed out

11 that the situation in Busovaca was difficult, that the

12 displaced people who were seeking shelter for

13 themselves were harassing the Muslim population. We

14 did all we could to protect those displaced people and

15 the local Muslim population because we did not want

16 them to leave Busovaca, but unfortunately what happened

17 was that they found themselves forced to leave.

18 I asked the people who were evicting Muslims

19 from the houses, I asked them why, and they said,

20 "Well, where should I live? I was also expelled." It

21 is terrible when --

22 Q. There's no need to repeat that. The imam

23 also said that between the 20th and 23rd of April, five

24 women of Ocenici, five women were killed and their

25 houses were burnt; just yes or no. True?

Page 20240

1 A. I don't know about it.

2 Q. But you accept that the HVO were killing some

3 people in the area in the time that we are discussing,

4 don't you?

5 A. It wasn't only the HVO who killed but the

6 Muslim units at Kacuni were also killing. From Kacuni,

7 dead bodies were arriving through Kacuni from the area

8 controlled by the ABiH.

9 Q. Nevertheless, a simple yes/no answer to my

10 question would help us. In the period of time with

11 which we are concerned, there were wholly unjustified

12 killings of Muslims in your area by members of the HVO;

13 correct?

14 A. There were, and I condemned such excesses. I

15 condemn every killing regardless of who has committed

16 it. Unfortunately that was the situation. People lost

17 their loved ones, and his vengefulness and the evil

18 side is awakened, and only those who experienced it can

19 understand it. There were people who had lost three

20 brothers. It is sad to look at all that. Everyone

21 suffered regardless of who they were, a Croat or

22 Bosniak. It was very sad. I hope it never repeats

23 itself.

24 Q. I want to show you one more document, I

25 think, at the moment, and then I may turn -- well, one

Page 20241

1 more document in the series.

2 While we're dealing with what you're saying

3 about crime, crimes were largely committed by

4 conscripts, weren't they? They weren't committed by

5 refugees.

6 A. I said these conscripts were displaced people

7 who arrived from those areas and who were looking for

8 shelter for themselves. Had they not come, the

9 situation in Busovaca -- speaking specifically about

10 Busovaca -- had the displaced persons not arrived from

11 the eastern Bosnia area, from the north, they all

12 arrived and they were looking for shelter in a very

13 confined area --

14 Q. I'm going to have to stop you. We don't have

15 that much time. In September of 1993, do you accept

16 that you prepared a report on crime for the year, and

17 at that stage, September, it was two murders, one rape,

18 ten aggravated robberies, and six armed robberies, with

19 ten cases of planting explosive devices, and that was

20 the total that you recorded in a report you signed off,

21 or somebody else's report but you signed it. Do you

22 accept that?

23 A. I would like to see the document, please.

24 Q. If I have time I'll show it to you. Does it

25 sound about right?

Page 20242

1 A. I cannot say that I signed something if I

2 don't look at it.

3 Q. I'm going to come back to that if I have time

4 later.

5 1217.1, please. This is a document of the

6 27th of September. It's from the European Monitors; it

7 relates to a meeting with you and how you were asked

8 about the situation of the Muslims in the town. You

9 said that they had difficulties to control the criminal

10 elements between the refugees, about 7.500. You were

11 trying everything to protect the remaining Muslims, of

12 which you said there were about 100. You promised that

13 an investigation would be done to find responsibility

14 for the mosque. When asked if you'd met the imam to

15 discuss the situation of the Muslims, you denied that

16 and said you would probably do this after the

17 investigation. And then there was this comment: "It

18 seems that the imam is considered more as a hostage

19 than as a conversation partner."

20 Is that all accurate?

21 A. That is not correct, because I respect the

22 imam as a man and I wanted him to stay in Busovaca, and

23 I continue to respect him to date. I also wanted to

24 conduct an investigation in order to uncover the

25 perpetrators of this.

Page 20243

1 Q. You're reported as going on to say this.

2 Asked your opinion considering a possible peace, you

3 said:

4 "As long as Mr. Izetbegovic wants more

5 territory, there would be no agreement and the Croats

6 in Central Bosnia would fight until the death, and the

7 only Muslim leader who could reach an agreement would

8 be Mr. Abdic, but they were aware that he hadn't enough

9 power to influence the Muslim hardliners."

10 Is that a correct reflection of your then


12 A. It is correct that I said so, because

13 Mr. Izetbegovic advocated a unitary Bosnia and

14 Herzegovina, and not taking into account Croats. And

15 when Croats pointed out that there would be an exodus

16 out of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Mr. Izetbegovic did

17 nothing.

18 Q. They then went to see the imam, and he said

19 there were only 38 Muslims left in September. He was

20 very afraid, and was even afraid of having had contact

21 with the international observers. That's about right,

22 isn't it?

23 A. That is probably right, if he went to imam

24 after our conversation, but I don't know, because I did

25 not control him.

Page 20244

1 Q. In another of the International Community's

2 reports, that I haven't got time to find and show you

3 at the moment, you're recorded as referring to the fact

4 that Muslims had a higher birth rate than Croats. Was

5 that something that preyed on your mind?

6 A. It is correct that the birth rate of Muslims

7 is higher than Croats, but it doesn't mean anything

8 taken out of the context. But there are facts whose

9 birth rate is higher than whose.

10 Q. [Previous translation continues] ...

11 International Community, did you, as is recorded?

12 A. I did say, and I mentioned it. I don't know

13 what the conversation was, but there is no dispute that

14 the birth rate of Muslims is higher than that of

15 Croats. I don't see anything bad in that. That's the

16 truth.

17 Q. You will be aware that in very recent weeks,

18 documents have been being produced in Zagreb following

19 the change in the government. Are you aware of that?

20 It's in the newspapers extensively.

21 A. I don't know about that. What I follow in

22 the media is what you said, but I did not see any

23 publicly released document.

24 Q. At the time with which we are concerned, in

25 1993 and 1994, you were the president of the Busovaca

Page 20245

1 HVO; correct?

2 A. Yes, of the civilian side of the government.

3 Q. And in any event, personalities like

4 Kraljevic would be known to you?

5 A. Person Kraljevic?

6 Q. Darko Kraljevic.

7 A. Darko Kraljevic, I met him in mid-1993, I

8 believe in mid-June of 1993.

9 MR. NICE: Your Honour, there's a document

10 I'd like this witness' comments on, if it can be

11 produced, please. I know that the Defence have either

12 been provided with it directly from Zagreb or,

13 alternatively, they've had it provided to them by a

14 co-defendant.

15 MR. SAYERS: Your Honour, we object to this

16 unauthenticated document on the grounds of hearsay,

17 double hearsay. It's not signed by anybody, we have no

18 idea who prepared it, there's no indication of who

19 prepared it, or when, and it's absolutely prejudicial.

20 In the absence of a better foundation being laid for

21 this document, we think that introduction of this

22 document amounts to deprivation of the rights of the

23 accused to confront his accuser. It's a violation of

24 Article 21 and it's also a violation of Rule 89 (c) and

25 (d). It has no probative effect, and the prejudicial

Page 20246

1 effect is self-evident, from an anonymous source. So

2 we object to it in the absence of the Prosecution

3 laying a foundation as to who wrote it, and when, and

4 proving it was based on firsthand knowledge rather than

5 multiple layers of hearsay.

6 MR. NICE: As the Court knows, the providers

7 or potential providers of documents have not provided

8 documents, have been obstructive and non-cooperative

9 until very recently. If documents come into our hands

10 late, it is no fault of ours. The fault can be traced

11 elsewhere.

12 These documents will, or may, feature in

13 another way at a later stage in the case, of course.

14 But where there's a witness who can plainly deal with

15 the content of the report, the witness should have a

16 chance to do so now rather than to have no opportunity,

17 and for the document, if it goes in due course in

18 another way, to go in without the advantage of his


20 The Court being professional Judges, as it

21 from time to time reminds us, is able to deal with

22 evidence on a contingent basis, but what is important

23 is that this witness should be given the opportunity to

24 deal with this document, and in particular with the

25 passages that he should be expected to be knowledgeable

Page 20247

1 about.

2 JUDGE ROBINSON: Where are they coming from?

3 MR. NICE: It comes from Zagreb. In case

4 there's any -- it may be that Your Honours haven't been

5 following matters as revealed in the press.

6 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Sayers,

7 could you tell us, and will you please speak slower so

8 we will be able to follow. And you tried to say

9 several times: Are you challenging the authenticity of

10 this document?

11 MR. SAYERS: Absolutely. We have absolutely

12 no idea who prepared it, when it was prepared, what the

13 sources of information were upon which it was

14 prepared. It's not signed. We think it's a complete

15 fabrication.

16 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice,

17 can you help us with the problem of authenticity?

18 MR. NICE: At the moment we are in a position

19 to draw to your attention the stamp on the front of the

20 page beside the reference to HIS and a signature, which

21 is the Croatian Intelligence Service. We were able to

22 tell you that this document has been provided to us, as

23 indeed I know to Mr. Kovacic, from one of the

24 providers -- the provider in Zagreb of documents at the

25 moment.

Page 20248

1 We would respectfully remind the Chamber that

2 there is material going to show that the Defence

3 lawyers have had access to sources in Croatia, as well

4 as in the Federation, far longer than we have, and that

5 prima facie this must be a genuine document. It's

6 provided, as the Chamber will also recall, or may

7 recall, either wholly or in part, pursuant to orders

8 made by this Court for production of documents. Some

9 of that's been --

10 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]

11 Mr. Naumovski wanted to add something.

12 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] With your

13 leave, Your Honours, but very briefly.

14 The Defence received this document only after

15 it learnt from the press that it had been disclosed to

16 the Prosecution and some other addresses. So we

17 received this document after the Prosecutor's office.

18 That is the first thing.

19 Secondly, this document is copied, so that it

20 seems both these pages belong to one and the same

21 document. However, the original has this first page,

22 and it looks indeed as it looks here. And the second

23 page, which seems to be annexed, is this unsigned

24 document, which doesn't show the source, which doesn't

25 show who did what, and so on and so forth. And that is

Page 20249

1 why we challenge the authenticity of the document which

2 is annexed. So we are objecting to the annex because

3 that is a document which has not been authenticated or

4 anything. And the Defence, of course, is fully -- has

5 all the grounds, all the reason, to believe that it was

6 a fabricated document. We do not know, of course, the

7 purpose behind it. So we had absolutely no advantage

8 over the --

9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Yes, thank

10 you very much.

11 MR. KOVACIC: It is quite clear, and I

12 believe that the Prosecution does have a document which

13 I transmitted to them this morning, so probably it was

14 not seen. There are two Defenses. We received the

15 document from the government of Croatia, indeed from

16 the office of the president, on May 20, and that was at

17 least four weeks after the Prosecution got it. And

18 that was after we entered a very bitter discussion with

19 the government based on the fact that --

20 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] No, no.

21 Listen. Listen, Mr. Kovacic. Wait. We are not going

22 to start this discussion now, because it is already 10

23 past 4.00 and it is Friday also. Tell us, please: Do

24 you have the same document -- this same document, and

25 was it given to you by the government?

Page 20250

1 MR. KOVACIC: This is one of five documents

2 in a set which the government gave us on the 20th of

3 May. Not the government. Let me be precise. The

4 presidency, the office of the president of the state.

5 There were five documents in one and the same sets.

6 This is only one of these documents.

7 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Very well.

8 So you have the same documents which were given you by

9 the office of the president of the Republic of Croatia;

10 is that so?

11 MR. KOVACIC: To be quite precise, Your

12 Honour, I sent a letter, I guess, two days ago to the

13 Prosecution where I asked the same fact, because I

14 never saw -- I did not have -- I was not in the

15 position to see what actually Prosecution got from the

16 office of the president and what I got. I only

17 presumed --

18 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] No. But do

19 you have this document which we're now examining?

20 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Yes. It was

21 one of the set of five documents.

22 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, I wanted to have

25 something clarified. In the English copy, the person

Page 20251

1 who signs on the first page -- there's no signature

2 there, because it's the English copy, but when we look

3 at the Croatian, you can see a signature. Is that

4 person purporting to be the author of what follows on

5 the --

6 MR. NICE: No.


8 MR. NICE: No, no. As we understand it, this

9 is a report being provided by the director of HIS to

10 Tudjman, but the report itself is not signed off by

11 that individual. So it is an enclosure or an

12 attachment. It's a separate document. So -- at least

13 that's my understanding of the position. So the

14 document is a document as a whole and is to be

15 construed in that way. But does he specifically sign

16 off the report? No, he doesn't, as I understand it.

17 JUDGE BENNOUNA: So we don't know who is the

18 author of the document here attached.

19 MR. NICE: You're absolutely right. We don't

20 know who is the author, whether it's the same or a

21 different person, but it is sent under the authority of

22 the person signing and emerges from the archives of the

23 state in the way that I've described.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: What indicates that it is

25 sent under the authority of the person signing?

Page 20252

1 MR. NICE: Because of how -- well, because it

2 goes with it, because it's forwarded with it. The two

3 documents are associated together.

4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: Did you receive it from the

5 presidency of Croatia as it is now, as you --

6 MR. NICE: No. We received it as the two

7 pieces of paper, first that side and then separately

8 that sheet. They're not one sheet of paper; they're

9 two separate sheets of paper, again, as I understand

10 it, but they're associated together as covering

11 document and report.

12 [Trial Chamber confers]

13 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice, we

14 shall admit this document but in the fashion that you

15 were given it, that is, as a document which was given

16 you by the Office of the President and which will serve

17 you in your cross-examination today. Of course,

18 needless to say, the probative value accorded to this

19 document will be determined by the Chamber in due

20 time. Naturally, with regard to the weight and

21 probative value of this document, it can be challenged

22 also and will be determined by the Chamber in due

23 time.

24 MR. NICE: Thank you.

25 Q. If you could look, please, Mr. Maric, at the

Page 20253

1 original in your language, and we'll place it on the

2 ELMO, it's headed, "The appointment of Darko Kraljevic

3 to the HVO General Staff may lead to the disintegration

4 of the defence organisation in Vitez and to the fall of

5 Vitez into Muslim hands," and the report, like the

6 covering letter, is dated the 18th of February, 1994.

7 Now, it then says as follows: "We found out

8 from reliable sources that a meeting will be held

9 today, the 18th of February, in which the status of

10 Darko Kraljevic will be discussed. At that meeting

11 Darko Kraljevic will be given the rank of HVO Colonel

12 and appointed to the HVO General Staff."

13 Were you aware of Darko Kraljevic becoming,

14 or indeed hoping to become, an HVO Colonel?

15 MR. SAYERS: Objection, Your Honour. Double

16 hearsay. We have no idea who wrote this report; we

17 have no idea who the reliable source is.

18 [Trial Chamber confers]

19 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Sayers,

20 you know well what our position is concerning this

21 issue. It is still the same jurisprudence. The weight

22 and the probative value will be determined by the

23 Judges.

24 Mr. Maric, did you hear any talk about this

25 or not? And we shall, of course, appreciate at a later

Page 20254

1 stage the weight we should accord to your statement.

2 So the question that is asked of you --

3 A. I am not aware of this event at all.


5 Q. The next paragraph begins in this way:

6 "According to a reliable source, Darko Kraljevic, with

7 the help of Dario Kordic and Ignac Kostroman, intends

8 to use this appointment to the HVO General Staff to

9 destroy Colonel Blaskic. There has been a concealed

10 and very bitter conflict between Dario Kordic and

11 Kostroman with the presidents of Travnik, Novi Travnik,

12 Vitez, and Busovaca HVO in Central Bosnia for quite

13 some time."

14 Now, pausing there and taking it in reverse

15 order, had there been an issue in respect of which the

16 presidents of Travnik, Novi Travnik, Vitez, and

17 Busovaca HVOs had been allies?

18 MR. SAYERS: Once again, Your Honour,

19 objection. Double hearsay. I apologise for

20 interrupting, but I want to ensure we create a clear

21 record here for future purposes. Once again, double

22 hearsay. We don't know who wrote this report. That

23 person, an unidentified, anonymous author, is quoting

24 an allegedly reliable source who, again, we have no

25 idea as to the identity of.

Page 20255

1 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Sayers,

2 we shall ask you not to interrupt us again on this

3 issue. You have had the opportunity to explain your

4 position; it is in the transcript and it is on record.

5 The position of the Chamber is once again the

6 same. We shall hear what the witness tells us. As for

7 the hearsay, as we have done before, we shall act in

8 the same way and we shall decide what weight and what

9 value to accord to what is said.

10 Mr. Maric, will you answer the question.

11 A. Your Honours, as for this document, I am not

12 familiar with it at all. I do not know what was

13 discussed in this document.

14 MR. NICE:

15 Q. What I'm asking you, and it relates to the

16 contents of the document but it comes from your memory,

17 is this: Was there an issue in this time, leading up

18 to February 1994, where the presidents of Travnik, Novi

19 Travnik, Vitez, and the Busovaca HVOs were allies, an

20 issue where you were working together to achieve an

21 objective?

22 A. I cannot answer when I simply cannot remember

23 when the meeting was, where it was. I simply haven't a

24 clue.

25 Q. Well, think back. You've come here and given

Page 20256

1 us a great deal of detail, as you told us, from your

2 memory which, you say, required no help from

3 documents. Was there an issue where you four HVO

4 presidents were either associated with, it's not

5 entirely clear, or alternatively against Kordic and

6 Kostroman on an issue that related, it would appear, to

7 Kraljevic? Was there such an issue?

8 A. Your Honours, I repeat once again: We were

9 never against Kordic or anyone, and so I cannot speak

10 about something that is not true. I cannot talk about

11 this document that I know nothing about. This is the

12 first time I hear about it.

13 Q. Were you against Blaskic, all of you, at some

14 stage?

15 A. How could one be against a man fighting for

16 his people?

17 Q. Then I'm not going to go through the rest of

18 it line by line, not only because of the lateness of

19 the hour but for other reasons, but just tell me --

20 remember what I asked you earlier, think back,

21 please -- Mr. Kordic, did he, as time went by, assume

22 more military authority, ever more military authority?

23 A. I said, and I affirm to this day, that Kordic

24 was a politician not a soldier. He was always a

25 politician and he never aspired to run the army.

Page 20257

1 Q. Thank you very much.

2 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm not going to take

3 that document any further with this witness because

4 we've passed the passage where he's specifically

5 identified, and that's what I wanted his answers on.

6 I'm in this position: There's a great deal

7 more I would have asked if time had been unlimited, and

8 I certainly haven't joined issue with this witness on

9 all the topics that he gave evidence on yesterday and

10 to which we would wish to ask questions. However, I am

11 content to end my cross-examination on the basis that

12 the witness is going home this weekend. But if there's

13 an application, for example, to have his re-examination

14 taken on Monday so that he's going to be here in any

15 event, well, then I'd ask for a little more time on

16 Monday to deal with some of the central issues that I

17 would have been dealing with in any event if I hadn't

18 been constrained by time.

19 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

20 Mr. Nice.

21 Mr. Naumovski.

22 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

23 so many subjects were brought up and I also would have

24 a number of questions, but I know that Mr. Maric has to

25 go home. So perhaps I could manage to finish it all in

Page 20258

1 less than ten minutes, or perhaps ten minutes. I would

2 not go into all the subjects. If you give me ten

3 minutes.

4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Yes,

5 Mr. Naumovski.

6 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,

7 Your Honours.

8 Re-examined by Mr. Naumovski:

9 Q. We shall begin from the end, Mr. Maric. From

10 this document, and you heard what we think about it,

11 the gist of what you were asked now is that there was a

12 very serious fallout between the presidents of the HVO,

13 that is, the civilian government in Travnik, Novi

14 Travnik, Vitez, and Busovaca and therefore you

15 personally on the one hand, and Mr. Dario Kordic and

16 Mr. Ignac Kostroman on the other, because of the whole

17 situation in the Lasva Valley. Did that ever really

18 happen?

19 A. Your Honours, I repeat once again: There was

20 never any conflict between the civilian side of the HVO

21 and the military side of the HVO.

22 Q. But this also speaks of a conflict with

23 Mr. Kordic personally and Mr. Kostroman.

24 A. I said no, not ever with the two of them.

25 Q. To conclude, so this is a false claim in this

Page 20259

1 document.

2 A. It is false because I know that there never

3 was any conflict.

4 Q. Thank you. Document 861 is the certificate

5 with three signatures; the brigade commander, Dusko

6 Grubesic, then you in the centre as the prime minister,

7 and the vice-president of the Croat Community of

8 Herceg-Bosna, Mr. Dario Kordic. Would you agree with

9 me that this document shows best this distribution of

10 power because it is signed by the military commander, a

11 representative of the civilian government, that is,

12 you, and Mr. Dario Kordic as the vice-president of the

13 Croat Community of Herceg-Bosna, as the politician?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Thank you. This document about Kuber, the

16 attack on Kuber, Colonel Blaskic's order of the 16th of

17 April, 1993, you say this order does not interfere with

18 what you say, that the battle on Kuber began on the

19 15th.

20 A. The battle on Kuber began on the 15th, and

21 the Muslim forces were advancing on the territory of

22 Busovaca.

23 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

24 without wasting time, I should like to draw your

25 attention to item 1 in this document, Z684, where it

Page 20260

1 says that the Muslim forces are advancing with a view

2 to taking Kuber in full which does not exclude any

3 previous fighting. Very well. Thank you.

4 Q. You said that you attended a meeting in

5 Croatia with President Tudjman in March 1993. I had

6 several questions but there is no time for that, so

7 only one question. Mr. Kordic was not at that meeting

8 with you.

9 A. No.

10 Q. Thank you. Some reports, some milinfosums,

11 of the British Battalion were read here about events on

12 the 20th, that is, 21st of January, 1991 in Busovaca.

13 You were asked by the Prosecutor a very long question

14 and you answered it in part but I don't think that you

15 answered all parts of that question. My question is as

16 follows:

17 On those days, the 20th, 21st, 22nd, 23rd of

18 January, 1993, did the authorities in Busovaca organise

19 any attack on Muslims?

20 A. The authorities never organised an attack on

21 the Muslims. Never. I swear by my life.

22 Q. So there wasn't a plan of attack.

23 A. Never.

24 Q. Incidentally, you were asked by the

25 Prosecutor if you had talked to the investigators of

Page 20261

1 this Tribunal. Tell us, Mr. Maric, did the

2 investigators of The Hague Tribunal ever invite you, as

3 the president of the HVO at that time, to have any

4 meeting?

5 A. No, I was never invited to any meeting.

6 Q. So are you telling the Court that you, as the

7 president of the government in those years, 1992/1993,

8 that is, 1994, nobody ever asked you with a view to

9 talk, with a view to establish -- to finding facts to

10 establish the situation in Busovaca in 1993?

11 A. No, I was never invited to discuss these

12 events in 1992, 1993, 1994. Nobody, ever.

13 Q. Thank you. There were two or three questions

14 which came down to your knowledge about an alleged

15 fallout between Colonel Blaskic and Mr. Kordic.

16 A. I do not know that there has been ever any

17 fallout between Mr. Kordic and Colonel Blaskic.

18 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I do not want

19 to waste any more time by showing the witness D52/1.

20 It's a document that we adduced, and I should like

21 merely to draw attention to item 4 of this document,

22 showing that Colonel Blaskic is suggesting that

23 Mr. Kordic, as the president of the HZ HB, should

24 attend some talks in Sarajevo. That is all that I

25 wanted to draw the attention of the Court to.

Page 20262

1 Q. You already said something about Mr. Kordic's

2 photograph. Did you ever see Mr. Kordic with any rifle

3 or any weapons for the duration of the war?

4 A. I never saw him with a rifle or a weapon.

5 Q. Very well. Thank you. You were shown

6 document Z120. It is an order, I don't know if you

7 remember, about sending a unit to Rasni Do [phoen], a

8 unit of 100 men or something, and it is signed by the

9 vice-president of the HVO, Dario Kordic, and the

10 secretary of the HVO, Ignac Kostroman. Did they have

11 any military responsibilities, the two gentlemen who

12 have signed here?

13 A. No.

14 Q. This is the 1st of June, 1992; Z120 bears

15 that date. That is the document. Do you know if the

16 commander before Colonel Blaskic was Tole who was

17 captured by the Serbs?

18 A. I cannot remember right now.

19 Q. Would you agree that this document was issued

20 before Colonel Blaskic became the commander of the

21 Operative Zone?

22 A. I do.

23 Q. That is, the 1st of June, 1991, it is the

24 period of time when the power was not yet divided that

25 you told us about.

Page 20263

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Very well. Thank you. A document has very

3 often come up here in this case, Z76.1, and that is the

4 delivery list or the shipping order. We have another

5 document, Z78A and B, and this document, Mr. Kordic

6 signed, but that is in the capacity that you already

7 saw, the secretary of the secretariat for the People's

8 Defence. We saw it, but perhaps, sir, you can

9 enlighten us. Pursuant to the order of the Ministry of

10 Defence of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, an

11 indication of the need to urgently remove, that is,

12 dislocate finished products from the weapons factory,

13 Bratstvo, in Novi Travnik.

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you remember if at that time everything

16 possible was done to take as many weapons from the JNA

17 as possible?

18 A. Quite so, because a year and a half before

19 that, the weapons that were held by the Territorial

20 Defence of Busovaca, that is, in all municipalities,

21 all these weapons were withdrawn and stood in the

22 barracks; that is, it was taken away. In point of

23 fact, it was taken away from the TO, which could manage

24 those weapons.

25 Q. Yes. We have to be mindful of the time, so

Page 20264

1 will you please keep your answers as short as

2 possible. Did the Busovaca HVO ever have at its

3 disposal those sophisticated means?

4 A. No, never.

5 Q. Thank you. The Prosecutor showed you a set

6 of Official Gazettes of the Republic of

7 Bosnia-Herzegovina reporting that these were the only

8 lawful laws, that is, that the only valid laws were the

9 ones carried by that Official Gazette. Is that

10 accurate?

11 A. I said that these sets of the Official

12 Gazette never reached the municipality of Busovaca.

13 These, I would have certainly had them in my hands as

14 the mayor of Busovaca.

15 Q. Then let us try to explain it to the Court as

16 follows: After the conclusion of the Dayton Accords,

17 did the Dayton Accords accept as valid all three types

18 of laws; that is, laws adopted by the presidency of

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina, laws adopted by the Croat

20 Community, that is, Croat Republic of Herceg-Bosna, and

21 the laws passed by the Republika Srpska in

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

23 A. When the Dayton and Washington Accords were

24 concluded, all the laws of all the three sides became

25 valid, until such time -- until such -- until the

Page 20265

1 beginning of the functioning of the parliament. Now it

2 is adopting official documents.

3 Q. But since not all the documents have been

4 adopted as yet for Bosnia-Herzegovina, there are still

5 some laws of the Croat Republic of Herceg-Bosna which

6 are still in effect?

7 A. Yes, indeed, there are still some of these

8 laws which are still in effect.

9 Q. Now, one question to do with the legal, that

10 is, legitimate power. You explained to us why you

11 thought that the Croats had legitimate right to

12 introduce their authority.

13 Just one sentence. Do you agree with me that

14 the lawful and legitimate power of the Croat Defence

15 Council, that is, Croat Community of Herceg-Bosna and

16 the Croat Republic of Herceg-Bosna, was the counterpart

17 which was recognised by the International Community

18 together with other two counterparts in

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina, both at the time of the conclusion

20 of the Dayton Accords and the Washington Agreements?

21 A. Yes. Well, it was the basis for both the

22 Washington and the Dayton Accords.

23 Q. So it merely goes to confirm the legality and

24 the legitimacy of the power which was set up in the

25 days when the old power had fallen apart?

Page 20266

1 A. Quite so.

2 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

3 just a few more moments. Just a couple of questions.

4 Q. A great deal was said, or rather the

5 Prosecutor characterised it and said Tudjman was

6 sending weapons, and you told us about different ways

7 in which weapons arrived.

8 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]

9 Mr. Naumovski, I must ask the interpreters also to be

10 patient with us. We shall accord a few more minutes.

11 I suppose they agree. Thank you. Because they also

12 have their union rights. Thank you very so much for

13 being so cooperative.

14 THE INTERPRETER: And could Mr. Naumovski

15 please slow down.

16 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

17 I can confirm that I will finish in five minutes. But

18 on the other hand, I'm being warned that I have to slow

19 down, so it is difficult to both be slow and finish

20 it. But thank you very much. I shall do my best.

21 Q. So the collection of weapons took different

22 forms; it was both taken away from the JNA, purchased,

23 and so on and so forth?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Would you agree with me that it was in late

Page 20267

1 1991 and early 1992?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. After April 1993, that is, after this second

4 conflict began, and then it lasted that whole year,

5 that is, until the next spring, are you aware that in

6 Croatia a large number of Muslim refugees from the

7 territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina were accommodated

8 in the Republic of Croatia?

9 A. Of course I do. There were over 200.000 who

10 were accommodated in the Republic of Croatia.

11 Q. When you first mentioned it, the transcript

12 recorded 500 expelled persons. That is why I had to

13 ask you that. Are you aware that --

14 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I didn't ask

15 questions about that. It's one of the various topics

16 that I haven't covered. And to put a huge leading

17 question in that form is valueless to the exercise,

18 really.

19 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Well, that is

20 in the record, in the transcript, Your Honours, and

21 that's why I reacted, because there was a figure of 500

22 mentioned, and that is not realistic, needless to say.

23 Q. Are you also aware that in Split, in

24 Zagreb --

25 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]

Page 20268

1 Mr. Naumovski, will you please -- I do not remember

2 either 500.000 [as interpreted]. Will you just move

3 on, please. Will you please move on to the next

4 question.

5 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Yes, of

6 course, Your Honour. But let me just finish this. We

7 shall not dwell on this.

8 Q. Are you aware that throughout the war between

9 Muslims and Croats in Central Bosnia, the Republic of

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina had its logistical and military

11 centers in Split and Zagreb, in the Republic of

12 Croatia?

13 A. Excuse me. I didn't understand your

14 question.

15 Q. I'm saying, are you aware that for the

16 duration of the war between the Muslims and between

17 Muslims and Croats in Bosnia-Herzegovina, that the

18 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina had its logistical

19 centers in Split and in Zagreb in the territory of the

20 Republic of Croatia?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And as for the speech on the 16th of January,

23 1992, and what Mr. Kostroman had said, you already

24 explained it to the Prosecutor. My only question is:

25 You said that you disagreed with that political option?

Page 20269

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Would you agree with me that on the table

3 there were quite a number of political options until

4 the referendum in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

5 A. Well, yes, of course there were all sorts of

6 options.

7 Q. In your conversations with President Tudjman,

8 was there ever any mention about the violent takeover

9 of power?

10 A. No. That was never brought up.

11 Q. There was another question, and the

12 Prosecutor asked who was the politician who managed to

13 run the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina? And I shall ask

14 you: Did any politician in Bosnia-Herzegovina ever run

15 the army in which the war --

16 A. No, never.

17 Q. Was there any politician who ran, who led the

18 army, who headed the army?

19 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] We are not

20 coming back to that point. The witness has already

21 spoken to us about Mr. Boban, his role, about the

22 politicians and the military. I do not think we have

23 to go back to that.

24 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] No, no, no.

25 I won't, Your Honour. No, I will not do that.

Page 20270

1 Perhaps my final question.

2 Q. At the time when the HVO government in

3 Busovaca was set up in May 1992, was there a central

4 government, central authority in Bosnia and Herzegovina

5 which could organise life in the territory of the

6 municipality of Busovaca?

7 A. No.

8 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

9 I really would have very many questions, but I am fully

10 aware of the time, so I should like to thank you for

11 the patience and to thank Mr. Maric for his answers.

12 Thank you very much.

13 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

14 Mr. Naumovski.

15 Mr. Kovacic, we have forgotten you. Do

16 you -- I still have to ask you: Do you have anything

17 to add?

18 MR. KOVACIC: No, sir, I don't.

19 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you,

20 Mr. Kovacic.

21 Very well. Mr. Maric, you have finished

22 giving your evidence before the International Criminal

23 Tribunal. Thank you very much for coming here to

24 testify before the International Criminal Tribunal.

25 You are now free to go.

Page 20271

1 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] The session

3 is adjourned and we shall resume --

4 Mr. Nice, yes.

5 MR. NICE: One thing.

6 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] I wanted to

7 say that we shall be resuming at half past 9.00 with

8 Judge May and Judge Robinson, as it has been announced

9 to you. As for me, I shall be on another case.

10 Yes, Mr. Nice.

11 MR. NICE: I'm simply going to ask, through

12 the Court, whether we could have the summaries for next

13 week's witness, who of course musn't be mentioned,

14 immediately, because they are in each case indicated as

15 substantial witnesses, and the difficulties of

16 preparing at short notice are very great.

17 And indeed the second thing I would ask is

18 that we can have a list of witnesses that extends

19 beyond next week, for I don't think we've got one at

20 the moment.

21 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Wait. Could

22 the witness please go. I believe we should allow the

23 witness to leave.

24 Usher, will you please escort the witness.

25 [The witness withdrew]

Page 20272

1 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Sayers.

2 MR. SAYERS: Yes, Your Honour. The witnesses

3 for next week are beginning to arrive today, and we

4 will provide the Court and the Prosecution -- if the

5 Court still wants the summaries, if it feels that

6 they're at all useful, we're more than happy to

7 continue the exercise. I'm sure the Court can

8 appreciate that it's an extremely substantial exercise

9 putting these documents together, but we're happy to

10 continue to do that and we will provide them to the

11 Prosecution in a timely fashion as soon as they're

12 signed.

13 We anticipate that the first one should be

14 available to be delivered to the Prosecution first

15 thing tomorrow morning, maybe 10.00 or 11.00, and the

16 other three should be available, once they've been

17 prepared, certainly by the -- before the beginning of

18 the first session on Monday. So that way the

19 Prosecution should have them all.

20 Insofar as a batting order is concerned, we

21 will give the Prosecution a batting order for the week

22 of the 20th. We haven't made final decisions regarding

23 those witnesses yet, but we'll alert them before the

24 end of next week and try to give them a batting order

25 for the next two weeks.

Page 20273

1 THE INTERPRETER: Will Mr. Sayers slow down,

2 please.

3 MR. SAYERS: My apologies to the

4 translators.

5 We'll give a batting order for two weeks to

6 the Prosecution sometime towards the end of next week.

7 Thank you.

8 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] With regard

9 to the fortnight list, for a list, we agreed. We

10 discussed. We do, yes; we agree with you.

11 As for the summaries, that is, the text which

12 concerns the examination-in-chief of witnesses, we

13 believe the Chamber considers them very useful, because

14 they help us to prepare, to follow easier. I cannot,

15 of course, encourage you to continue, because this is a

16 serious work.

17 But, Mr. Nice, are you satisfied with what

18 has just been proposed?

19 MR. NICE: As to the provisions of summaries,

20 thank you very much.

21 As to the provision of a witness list, I

22 think the provision of a list only in the middle of

23 next week is really very late. I think, by and large,

24 the minimum that the Rule imposed right at the

25 beginning of the case required was that there should be

Page 20274

1 a notice the next two weeks of witnesses. And really

2 we should have, at any given time, a notice of the next

3 two weeks to come.

4 Of course I'm not unsympathetic to

5 difficulties in the way of getting witnesses here, and

6 of course decisions made will be contingent upon the

7 performance of earlier witnesses. I understand that.

8 Nevertheless, I would respectfully invite the Court to

9 make it really the case that there's always a minimum

10 of two weeks of -- two working weeks of witnesses

11 available for us to prepare.

12 MR. SAYERS: If I may, Your Honour, there

13 will be. The week of June 12th, I believe, is --

14 there's no court that week. So if we give the

15 Prosecution a list of witnesses for the next two weeks,

16 it's going to be the week of the 20th and the week of

17 the 27th. They can --

18 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] This is what

19 I was going to say. Any matter as of the next week,

20 yes, there will be one week to prepare. But it doesn't

21 prevent you, of course, to give them really as they

22 come so that the Prosecution could be prepared. So

23 tomorrow you will have the summary for the witnesses

24 who will be here on Monday, and I suppose that you will

25 have them 24 hours in the advance for the witnesses who

Page 20275

1 will follow. Thank you.

2 This session is adjourned.

3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

4 at 4.49 p.m., to be reconvened on

5 Monday the 5th day of June, 2000,

6 at 9.30 a.m.