1 Thursday, 6 July 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Somers. Mr. Kovacic, yes.

7 MR. KOVACIC: If we are on the part of the cross, I think I will

8 have some questions.

9 JUDGE MAY: Very well, then, yes.

10 WITNESS: IVO VILUSIC [Resumed]

11 Cross-examined by Mr. Kovacic:

12 Q. Good morning Mr. Vilusic, my name is Mr. Bozidar Kovacic, I'm an

13 attorney from Rijeka and I represent Mr. Mario Cerkez here in this

14 affair. I have several questions for you.

15 Would you please allow enough time for interpretation before you

16 give any answers so that we have a clear transcript.

17 Yesterday, before your evidence, we received an outline which you

18 initialled and then signed. It was prepared by the Defence and I notice

19 some discrepancies so I would like to address that. First of all, in the

20 outline, you mentioned and then did not mention during your evidence

21 yesterday that in the convoy, in addition to food and fuel, there was also

22 ammunition; is that correct?

23 A. I did not see that.

24 Q. But do you know that there was ammunition in the convoy?

25 A. This is what I heard.

1 Q. Can you tell me who you heard it from?

2 A. From those people who were there.

3 Q. Could you specify in which part of the convoy, the so-called

4 Muslim or the so-called Croat part of the convoy?

5 A. No, I cannot say that because I don't know.

6 Q. Was there any manifest declaring the ammunition?

7 A. No, I only had paperwork for the 115th Zrinjski Brigade. I had no

8 insight into any other documents.

9 Q. Would that mean that part of the goods which belonged to your

10 brigade, you had documents or paperwork only for that part of the convoy?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Was there any ammunition in that part of the convoy?

13 A. No, only food and some cigarettes.

14 Q. Very well. You mentioned that the convoy started out from Tuzla

15 to Herzegovina. There, a number of vehicles were added to it and then it

16 went back.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Out of approximately 700 vehicles which were moving back towards

19 Tuzla, how many vehicles were added in Herzegovina when the convoy started

20 out?

21 A. At least one half, perhaps about -- a bit more.

22 Q. So if I understand you correctly, half of the convoy started out

23 from Tuzla, it was loaded up and then was joined by another half in

24 Herzegovina.

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Who added these vehicles there in Herzegovina?

2 A. I have no information about that.

3 Q. Conditionally speaking, there were, again, two parts; there was

4 some Croatian goods and some Muslim goods and vehicles.

5 A. I assume, but I don't know.

6 Q. But the convoy was so large that you don't know a number of things

7 about it.

8 A. Yes, I only saw the -- I only knew things about the front of it

9 because that is where I was.

10 Q. But those 10 or should I say almost 15 days, you communicated with

11 these people, you were with them and you heard things, you got some

12 information.

13 A. I didn't hear the question.

14 Q. Between going to Tuzla, to Herzegovina and back, it took about 15

15 days. So during this period, you communicated with these people who were

16 in the convoy. In a way, you were part of the leadership of the convoy,

17 you received some information.

18 A. I did not receive any information.

19 Q. And you didn't listen to what was going on and what -- you didn't

20 see what was going on?

21 A. I wasn't really paying attention to who was loading what.

22 Q. So you weren't interested in that?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you know whether anybody issued any certificates, any permits

25 for the part of the convoy which was added in Grude?

1 A. I have no information about that.

2 Q. Let me now turn to another topic. Let us try to retrace your

3 steps. You came to Vitez from the direction of Novi Travnik?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. At a T-junction, it joins the road that comes from Novi Travnik to

6 Vitez.

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you remember this T-junction?

9 A. I do.

10 Q. By the way, had you ever been to Vitez before?

11 A. Yes, before the war.

12 Q. Do you know that area well? Did you know all the terrain, the

13 roads, intersections?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Let's say you had travelled on your own, would you have used a map

16 this time around?

17 A. It's just one road, it is from Vitez to Travnik. That's all it

18 is.

19 Q. So when you arrived at the T-junction, you knew that you had to

20 turn right towards Bila in order to reach Vitez?

21 A. I started out of -- from Novi Travnik.

22 Q. Yes. And you arrived at a T-junction?

23 A. That is for the turnoff for the town of Vitez and on the left,

24 there is a gas station.

25 Q. Mr. Vilusic, I don't think we are on the same page. I think I may

1 have to rephrase the question. When you take the road from Novi Travnik,

2 when you arrive at a T-junction -- when you meet the Travnik Vitez road.

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. How far do you think is that point from the town of Vitez? Is

5 that one kilometre or ten kilometres?

6 A. It's one or two kilometres, not ten.

7 Q. Do you happen to know the first location where you were stopped?

8 How far from the T-junction was that?

9 A. I couldn't tell you precisely.

10 Q. A couple of hundred metres, a couple of kilometres?

11 A. A couple of kilometres.

12 Q. And you were driving in the direction of Vitez. You don't know

13 how long?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. At some point before Vitez, did you arrive at the point where

16 there was a checkpoint of ABiH, where your documents were checked?

17 A. You mean on the road between Travnik and Vitez?

18 Q. Yes, between the T-junction and town.

19 A. No.

20 Q. Are you sure that you were taken down the main road?

21 A. I don't know how to answer that. I believe that that was the main

22 road.

23 Q. Who was ahead of your vehicle?

24 A. There were two UNPROFOR vehicles.

25 Q. And at no point were they stopped, even for a minute, by the ABiH

1 army control?

2 A. No.

3 Q. When you moved from the T-junction towards the town of Vitez, did

4 you see on the right-hand side the UNPROFOR base?

5 A. I don't remember. I may have.

6 Q. Does the name Divjak mean anything to you?

7 A. I don't remember.

8 Q. Two kilometres further down, about five or six kilometres past the

9 junction, did you see any UN base, again on the right-hand side of the

10 road?

11 A. No, I have no recollection of that.

12 Q. The location where you believe that you had been stopped, you

13 mentioned that there was a gas station.

14 A. Yes, on the left-hand side. It wasn't there at that time.

15 Q. You mean it was not there?

16 A. It has been built since.

17 Q. So it wasn't there during the war?

18 A. That is correct.

19 Q. So do you think that you were at a bypass, or do you remember at

20 all?

21 A. No, I cannot remember at all.

22 Q. And on which side of the road was Impregnacija? Because you said

23 that you passed Impregnacija or you were somewhere around Impregnacija.

24 What side of the road, looking in the direction in which you were moving?

25 A. You have to tell me what Impregnacija is, because I don't know the

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1 name. I only know that on the right-hand side there was something -- a

2 structure for the technical check of vehicles.

3 Q. Did you see any plate, any sign?

4 A. No.

5 Q. So how do you know that -- how did you then describe by the gas

6 station, near Impregnacija? How did that arrive at?

7 A. When I spoke with the lawyer in Busovaca, he asked me to specify

8 where it was. He mentioned Impregnacija.

9 Q. So in point of fact, you don't know the location where you were

10 stopped?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Can you please repeat the answer, because it had not -- it was not

13 taken down in the transcript. Just repeat the -- your answer: You cannot

14 describe the location precisely.

15 A. No, I cannot.

16 Q. Very well. Thank you. You said that then you went to the station

17 from there. Do you remember, did you have to back up or did you have to

18 go further in the direction in which you were moving?

19 A. Further in the direction where we were moving, towards Zenica.

20 Q. Mr. Vilusic, we've moving to another topic now. Is it correct

21 that while you were at the police station, your vehicle which was parked

22 in front of the police station was stolen?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Can you please tell me -- confirm for me: The police station was

25 practically in the town itself?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Did you observe that about 50 metres across from the police

3 station there was a hotel?

4 A. I believe there was.

5 Q. You were there in broad daylight?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. So you left your vehicle in front of the building and you walked

8 in?

9 A. And after I left the building, after having talked to the

10 policeman, the vehicle was gone.

11 Q. How long did you talk to the policeman?

12 A. About half an hour.

13 Q. So half an hour later you come out of the police station and your

14 vehicle was gone?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Had you left your keys in the vehicle?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did you lock your vehicle before going in?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Very well. Thank you. Another area of questioning.

21 Yesterday you were asked whether it was correct that ABiH, in the

22 area it controlled, did not permit passage of the HVO convoys into the

23 enclaves controlled by the HVO -- I'm sorry. You said that the ABiH did

24 allow convoys to go into the HVO enclaves, but in your outline you said

25 the opposite; you said that people were angry because transport of food

1 and other supplies were not allowed through the area.

2 A. I think that there was a misunderstanding, because it was only

3 this convoy that was not permitted to go through. I think we didn't

4 understand each other.

5 Q. Very well. Let's try to avoid any misunderstanding. Can you

6 answer this: Do you know that the ABiH did not allow passage of convoys

7 that were supplying the HVO areas?

8 A. This is what I heard from the people around there. I did not know

9 that personally, but this is what I heard from the people there.

10 Q. So in order to avoid any misunderstanding, on site, on the ground,

11 while you talked to the people, you learned, among other things, about

12 their argument: We are not letting through this convoy because we are --

13 they are not allowing our convoys to carry our supplies.

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. KOVACIC: It seems that there are some mistakes in the

16 transcript, but in the last sentence everything is clear, I guess.

17 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, have the interpreters in mind. I can

18 hear that they're having -- bound to have difficulty, because you are

19 running on.

20 MR. KOVACIC: Yes, Your Honour. I was obviously too fast.

21 Q. [Interpretation] Very well. For the transcript, let us repeat

22 just this last part. Is it correct that from the locals on that day,

23 while you were stopped, you heard that they were angry because ABiH was

24 not allowing passage of humanitarian convoys towards the enclave of Vitez?

25 A. Yes, that is what I heard from them.

1 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Mr. Vilusic, thank you

2 very much. [In English] I have no further questions.

3 Cross-examined by Ms. Somers:

4 Q. Was the vehicle which you were driving, the jeep that you were

5 driving, was it a hard vehicle or soft vehicle, soft jeep or hard-covered

6 jeep?

7 A. It was a civilian vehicle.

8 Q. But I mean it had a regular metal top as opposed to a soft-covered

9 top; hard top, not soft top?

10 A. Yes, regular metal top.

11 Q. What type of licence plate did you have on the jeep? Was it one

12 that was bearing any indication of anything Croat or was it a BiH tag,

13 licence tag?

14 A. It had BiH plates.

15 Q. Did most of the vehicles that were coming from the -- coming along

16 with you have BiH tags as opposed to any other type of tag?

17 A. I believe that most of them had BiH plates, especially from the

18 area from which we were coming.

19 Q. Which was Tuzla; correct?

20 A. Correct.

21 Q. Tuzla, it would be fair to say, was not considered HVO-controlled

22 territory. Is that a fair statement?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. You had spent, from what I could gather from your summary, most of

25 your life in Tuzla. Could you describe the relationships between the

1 Muslim communities and the Croat communities in Tuzla?

2 A. I don't know. I cannot comment on that. I can comment on the

3 convoy, but my basic view is -- my personal view is that they were all

4 right, but that's only my personal view.

5 Q. In your personal view as someone who had lived there, were they --

6 when you say "all right," cordial? Was there a reasonably good working

7 relationship between the two communities?

8 A. I don't know what to tell you, since there were no conflicts there

9 between ABiH and the HVO, so that means that there weren't any significant

10 problems. That's all I can say.

11 Q. During the period, let's say, 1991 -- no. Let's make it early

12 1992 to mid-1994 -- how many times did you have to drive out of the area

13 of Tuzla into the Central Bosnia area toward Herzegovina? How many trips

14 would you have had to make, if you can tell us, or was this the only trip

15 you had to make?

16 A. That was the only convoy of which I was a part through Central

17 Bosnia.

18 Q. You've described your position, though, as driver for Mr.

19 Andric-Luzanski. Was he at that point also an HVO official in Tuzla?

20 Although it was not HVO-controlled territory, was he nonetheless an HVO

21 official?

22 A. No. Mr. Luzanski was president of the HDZ in Soli. That was how

23 this branch was called.

24 Q. Soli being another term for Tuzla; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

1 Q. Did you ever have to drive Mr. Andric-Luzanski to any HDZ

2 meetings, either within your area or outside of your area, during the time

3 period, let's say, 1992 through 1994? Not convoy-type-related things, but

4 just driving to HDZ meetings.

5 A. I didn't have to. I did it voluntarily, because I wasn't on HDZ

6 payroll. I was unemployed. I had lost a job at my transportation

7 company, so I did this on a voluntary basis, driving Mr. Luzanski.

8 Q. So you really, if I understand it, did not have any interaction

9 with the HDZ as a formal body; this was just an occasional type of assist

10 to Mr. Luzanski?

11 A. Well, yes, I was not an HDZ official. I was just a member. I did

12 not have any duties.

13 Q. One of the comments that was made in your direct testimony has led

14 me to ask you, did you understand this convoy to be an UNPROFOR guided or

15 protected convoy from its inception?

16 A. Yes, this is why I went there. I did not anticipate any problems

17 because I thought that there would be people who would be providing

18 security, who would make it safe.

19 Q. So you were not aware that this was not an UNHCR sponsored convoy

20 but this, in fact, was viewed as a private one and that UNPROFOR did not

21 want to get involved.

22 A. I did not know whether UNPROFOR wanted or did not want to be

23 involved. I know that Muslims and Croats from Tuzla had organised it. I

24 don't know anything beyond that.

25 Q. Mr. Lovric is the person, I guess it was described, as the

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1 organiser for the Croats; is that correct? Were you involved in any of

2 the planning stages, even just sitting and listening to the planning

3 stages of this particular convoy with Mr. Lovric?

4 A. No, I wasn't involved at all. I was not involved in the

5 preparation of the -- I just went with it and I drove Mr. Lovric. That

6 was my sole role there.

7 Q. If you had understood from the very beginning that this convoy was

8 not an UNPROFOR-escorted convoy, would that have changed your mind about

9 driving?

10 A. I suppose so. I wouldn't have left off. I was sure there

11 wouldn't be any trouble at all, otherwise I wouldn't have gone, naturally.

12 Q. There has been some discrepancy in descriptions of the number, the

13 total number of vehicles. Your summary suggested some 700 or so when all

14 was said and done. Other numbers from International Community members

15 suggest 500 or so. How did you actually arrive at the figure of 700? Was

16 there any official count or anybody that was making an official count at

17 any point in time?

18 A. Nothing was official. That was just an approximate assessment.

19 Everybody from different parts of the convoy said how many vehicles there

20 were. I never counted those vehicles, I simply heard there were about 700

21 vehicles.

22 Q. The process of going from territories that were outside the

23 territory that is called the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna to the

24 territory of the legitimate state of -- the entire state of

25 Bosnia-Herzegovina, going from, let's say, non-HVO territory to HVO

1 territory, were you at checkpoints where you had to produce documents in

2 order to get from one community or one municipality that was non-HVO

3 controlled to another? And if you had to go through those checkpoints,

4 could you describe the process of getting past a checkpoint from ABiH

5 territory into HZ HB territory?

6 A. In that convoy when we went, there were no checkpoints set up

7 either by the ABiH or the HVO. I mean there were no checkpoints.

8 Q. None at all. You had to make no stops and produce any documents

9 showing your nationality or identification?

10 A. Yes, but only in Novi Travnik when those two young women stopped

11 me and asked me who I was or what I was when I showed them my ID, my

12 papers. That was the only time, nowhere else.

13 Q. Do you know if any other drivers or any other members of the

14 convoy, if you're aware of it, had to stop at any point and present

15 identification or indications of citizenship?

16 A. I am not aware of that.

17 Q. Did you have a passport with you at the time?

18 A. I beg your pardon?

19 Q. Excuse me, I'll repeat it. Did you have a passport with you at

20 the time?

21 A. I did not hold one at the time. It was only in 1996 that I

22 obtained the Croatian passport. I had the old one, the former one, the

23 ancient Yugoslavia one, but it had already expired by that time.

24 Q. Did you, in fact, cross into the territory of the Republic of

25 Croatia at some point?

1 A. The convoy, you mean?

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. No.

4 Q. When you got to an area, are you familiar with an area of Nova

5 Bila?

6 A. After the war, I went to visit the hospital that was built in Nova

7 Bila, that is all I know about Nova Bila. Before the war, I've never been

8 there. So that was two or three years ago.

9 Q. During the course of the convoy passing through the area of Nova

10 Bila, were you made aware of any anti-aircraft weapons that had been

11 sighted along the side of the road, an offloading site that was sighted by

12 members of the International Community? Did anyone give you, as it were,

13 a heads up or a warning that there was anti-aircraft weaponry in place in

14 the Nova Bila area?

15 A. Nobody warned me about anything. I knew nothing about it.

16 Q. Had you heard or yourself observed the accused, Mario Cerkez, on

17 or about the 11th of June, orchestrating a demonstration of women and

18 children in connection with this convoy in the area of Dubravica? Did you

19 either see it or hear about it?

20 A. I did not see him, I did not know him, and I did not hear him

21 then.

22 Q. You didn't have to hear him but hear about -- were there any

23 reports that came back to you, as someone at the head of the convoy, that

24 you should know about?

25 A. No, not even that.

1 Q. The permits which you described as issued for Muslims and Croats,

2 were they separate permits?

3 A. Well, there were permits for the territory that's controlled by

4 the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina so the only difference was the seal. I

5 mean they had their own seal and we had our seal. So there were

6 differences.

7 Q. Do you recall, if you could picture the permit for a minute in

8 front of you, was there any question about nationality of any of the

9 drivers or of the passengers who were going to be in this convoy? Was

10 that specifically asked?

11 A. No, nobody asked me that.

12 Q. At any point along the road to go from any point to any other

13 point, were any fees charged by any organised groups, military,

14 paramilitary? Was anybody asking for money to get from any point to any

15 other point?

16 A. No, nobody asked me to do that. For what I know when I was there,

17 nobody asked that.

18 Q. Did you have, for communication and/or security purposes, any

19 hand-held radio or other means of communication in our jeep that would

20 have allowed you to communicate with any other essential person in the

21 convoy?

22 A. All I had was jeans, sneakers, and a T-shirt and that was all the

23 equipment I had.

24 Q. Did any passenger in your car have any means of communication in

25 the event of trouble or in any eventuality?

1 A. I couldn't tell you that because I don't know anything about it.

2 Q. You mentioned a friar was travelling with you. Where was this

3 person from, this religious person?

4 A. He served there in our parish in Tuzla.

5 Q. And he -- I'm sorry, yes, you wanted to say something?

6 A. No, no, go on.

7 Q. And he was not known to any of the persons in the convoy other

8 than yourself? I ask you this because you indicated that there was --

9 there appear to have been disbelief as to whether or not he was, in fact,

10 a friar.

11 A. Well, I don't know if some -- anyone knew him in Novi Travnik or

12 Vitez. I knew him because he came from Tuzla with us and because in our

13 parish, he was a friar.

14 Q. In Tuzla, did you have any dealings or interaction with the

15 UNPROFOR staff, in particular, with some of the British Battalion

16 personnel in UNPROFOR?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Were you informed, before you set out, about any, as it were,

19 rules of conduct or behaviour that should be observed given that you were

20 going to be going a long distance through territories which were

21 essentially war zones? Was there any briefing for the members of the

22 convoy that you can recall?

23 A. I don't know if there was any -- nobody briefed me about

24 anything. I simply got on to the jeep and set off. We were told that we

25 were going to Herzegovina, and that there were no problems at all. We

1 just went through.

2 Q. The crowds that gathered that you described, in particular, you

3 indicated that a Warrior which ultimately belonged -- I guess it belonged

4 to UNPROFOR, is that correct? It was an UNPROFOR Warrior that people

5 surrounded, and you indicated were pouring oil or gasoline. Did you

6 personally observe this?

7 A. Yes, I said so yesterday. A soldier who was with those two young

8 women, one was, I think, a foreigner, another one his interpreter, and he

9 was pouring over the petrol or something, I don't know what it was. But

10 he had a canister and he was pouring it over the -- yes, over the vehicle

11 which was the UNPROFOR's. But that was at this crossroads when we were

12 stopped.

13 Q. Was this soldier a uniformed soldier, the young man that you saw?

14 A. Yes. Yes, he did have a uniform and a weapon.

15 Q. And what uniform was it, if you can recall?

16 A. A multicouloured one, a multicoloured camouflage uniform.

17 Q. Was it an HVO uniform? Was it an HVO soldier, to your knowledge?

18 A. I couldn't see the insignia, I only saw the uniform and that he

19 was armed.

20 Q. Was there any evidence of anyone with, let's say, a lighter or any

21 incendiary device nearby?

22 A. I know nothing about that.

23 Q. Did your -- I hate to use the term "boss," because you indicated

24 you were in a voluntary relationship with Mr. Andric-Luzanski, but did he

25 have dealings with Dario Kordic, if you know, simply because of the HDZ

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1 connection?

2 A. Personally, I'm not aware of that. I mean ...

3 Q. From where you were standing, what was the youngest age of the

4 persons in the crowd that had gathered when the violence broke out? When

5 you said "children," how young are we talking about?

6 A. I couldn't say, really. Perhaps 15, 16, maybe 17, thereabouts.

7 But mostly it was elderly women and men.

8 Q. Are you able to estimate the number of persons in that crowd?

9 A. No, I couldn't really. I didn't count them. I know there were

10 quite a number of people.

11 Q. Did you observe any uniformed policemen in the perimeter of the

12 crowd or on the periphery of the crowd?

13 A. Not in Novi Travnik, but in Vitez, yes, and I communicated with

14 that policeman. That is, when I came with one, and then a couple more of

15 them. But it was in Vitez, not in Novi Travnik.

16 Q. Was the crowd in Novi Travnik bigger than the crowd in Vitez?

17 A. Yes, perhaps slightly.

18 Q. How much time elapsed between encountering the first crowd and

19 encountering the second crowd?

20 A. I don't really know. Well, it's about two kilometres, so as long

21 as it took us to get from Novi Travnik to Vitez, about half an hour,

22 perhaps, or so. I'm not sure about the -- how many kilometres there are.

23 So it's from Novi Travnik to Vitez. That's it.

24 Q. But they were identifiably at points in Novi Travnik and in Vitez,

25 not along the roads in between; they were in city and city or location and

1 location, not straddling the roads in between?

2 A. No, no. They cut off; they simply stood in front of the column

3 and blocked the road.

4 Q. Was the point of blocking the road near homes, near shops?

5 A. Yes, especially Novi Travnik.

6 Q. Communications generally in that area, were you made aware of

7 whether or not they were good, functional communications? Were there

8 telephone lines? Were you aware of -- if you know -- of television

9 availability, radio availability?

10 A. I know there was no electricity when we arrived. There was

11 nothing. That is, all I know is that when I arrived there, there was no

12 electricity. Whether telephones were in order or any other form of

13 communication, I don't know, but probably not, since there was no power.

14 Q. In addition to the presence of police officers, did you notice,

15 generally, armed HVO officers milling around, standing around the areas

16 where these crowds had gathered?

17 A. I did not see any officer. There were a few soldiers; not a group

18 of them, just a couple of them, some individuals.

19 Q. Did you have any indication how long this crowd -- excuse me. Let

20 me back up. Did the crowd gather in front of your very eyes or was it

21 already in place when you hit these various locations? Did it come out of

22 nowhere or was it already there when you entered the points where you

23 encountered them?

24 A. You have to be more specific. Where? Novi Travnik or ...?

25 Q. Let's talk Novi Travnik and then Vitez, yes.

1 A. Well, yes. When we set off in the morning and passed the exit

2 from Novi Travnik, that is where those women were. They were already

3 there and blocking the road. So at the exit from Novi Travnik to Vitez.

4 Q. They were waiting for you?

5 A. No. When we set off in the morning for Vitez towards the exit

6 from Novi Travnik, from Novi Travnik to Vitez, and they were there.

7 Q. And then Vitez, what was the situation?

8 A. Same.

9 Q. After you returned to Tuzla, at the end of the whole thing, was

10 there discussion, if you know, within the Croatian community in Tuzla

11 about this incident? Was there feedback? Did you hear discussions? I

12 mean, was there questioning about what happened along the road?

13 A. Well, no, not much.

14 Q. Just a couple of more questions. The crowds had no men of what we

15 would describe as military age, would that be correct, even dressed in

16 civilian clothes?

17 A. Correct. Correct. There were not any. Ninety per cent were

18 women and old men.

19 Q. Did you ever recover your vehicle, by the way? I don't know if

20 anyone ever asked you that. I don't recall an answer to that. Did you

21 get your own vehicle back ultimately?

22 A. No.

23 Q. How did you proceed on to the destination?

24 A. There was a neighbour who had joined that convoy. He had come

25 from West Germany before and he had bought a car, and I saw him in Vitez

1 and I went on in his car.

2 Q. So you, the friar, and Mr. Lovric joined that vehicle?

3 A. No. Only myself, and I did not see Mr. Lovric. After we reached

4 Novi Travnik, I did not see Mr. Lovric again.

5 Q. What happened to the friar? Was he with you in the car?

6 A. No, not with me. He was given a lift in another vehicle and he

7 went off without me, and I did not see Mr. Lovric.

8 Q. When you continued in your friend's vehicle, were you still at the

9 head of the convoy? You had been in a fairly advantageous position before

10 your vehicle was stolen. Where were you located in the convoy afterward?

11 A. Well, at that time I was not at the head. I mean, when the column

12 started, that is, the vehicles that were there, they set off and I merely

13 joined it. I don't know how many vehicles there were in front of me or

14 behind me; I simply joined the column.

15 Q. I'm sorry. I should have asked you this when we were talking

16 about the crowds, but can you tell us what time of day it was when you

17 encountered the crowd in Novi Travnik and what time of day it was when you

18 encountered the crowd in Vitez?

19 A. Well, that was in the morning, 10.00 perhaps or 11.00 in the

20 morning, 10.00 or 11.00.

21 MS. SOMERS: Excuse me just one second. Thank you. I have

22 finished my questions.

23 MR. SAYERS: Your Honour, no redirect examination. Could we just

24 remind the Trial Chamber that Defence Exhibit D204/1 is contemporaneous

25 vehicle footage of the convoy and you can see the make-up of the crowds

1 yourself in the videotape. Thank you.

2 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Vilusic, that concludes your evidence. Thank you

3 for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You're free to go.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Naumovski. The next witness.

7 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I believe the witness is here.

8 Our next witness will be Mr. Kresimir Bozic.

9 [The witness entered court]

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

12 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13 WITNESS: KRESIMIR BOZIC

14 [Witness answered through interpreter]

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes, thank you. Take a seat.

16 Yes, Mr. Naumovski.

17 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Your

18 Honours, before I begin, I should like to ask the Court: Mr. Kresimir

19 Bozic is a diabetic, so if at any point in time he needs a break, a pause,

20 if he doesn't feel well, would you please grant him leave to leave for a

21 moment.

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Just let us know.

23 Examined by Mr. Naumovski:

24 Q. Mr. Bozic, will you please give the Court your full name.

25 A. Kresimir Bozic.

1 Q. And we can quickly go through your particulars. You were born on

2 the 20th of May, 1955 in Vares; is that so?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And you are a mechanic, aren't you?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. You are a widower with two children?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. At present you are the First Lieutenant of the Croatian army and

9 you and your family live in the city of Zagreb in the Republic of Croatia?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Mr. Bozic, I must ask you to pause briefly after you've heard my

12 question, until my question has been interpreted into the official

13 languages of the Court, so as to help the interpreters. Thank you.

14 In 1993, Mr. Bozic, you were a member of the HVO Bobovac Brigade,

15 weren't you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. The brigade command was in Vares, or, to be more specific, at the

18 Ponikve Hotel, which is a few kilometres out of Vares?

19 A. Yes, seven kilometres.

20 Q. And until the 24th of October, 1993, you were the commander for

21 operative and educational affairs in the Bobovac Brigade command; is that

22 so?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. And on that day, in the afternoon, the commander of the brigade,

25 Emil Harah, asked to be relieved of his duty because he was having some

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1 mental trouble, and he thought --

2 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I prefer this evidence not to be led,

3 wherever possible.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Naumovski, for now, ask the questions in

5 non-leading form, if you please.

6 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honours. This was

7 still part of the personal data, so I had just lumped it in.

8 Q. But Mr. Bozic, you just heard the advice. Under what

9 circumstances did you become the acting commander of the brigade? On what

10 date, and why?

11 A. On the 24th of October, 1993, commander Emil Harah submitted a

12 written request to be relieved of command because he was suffering from

13 mental difficulties. After the consultation with the superior command and

14 from -- and the command put me in charge of the Bobovac Brigade.

15 Q. From which date were you authorised to command the Bobovac

16 Brigade?

17 A. That was on the 24th of October, 1993, in the afternoon.

18 Q. Was this before or after the events at Stupni Do?

19 A. That was one day after the events at Stupni Do.

20 Q. Thank you. Let us go back to the events in Vares in 1992 and

21 focus on the armed forces. The Trial Chamber has had the opportunity to

22 hear that a command was formed by the parties which formed the municipal

23 government. Who were the members of it?

24 A. They were members of the HVO and the TO BiH. There were ethnic

25 Croats and ethnic Muslims. Those who were members of the HVO, those who

1 were -- they wore HVO insignia, and some of them were Muslims. And those

2 who were in the TO had their own uniforms, and the Vares insignia were

3 common to both forces.

4 Q. So if I understand you correctly, all troops had Vares in their

5 sign, but they had HVO and TO signs respectively depending on where they

6 were?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Until when did this joint staff operate?

9 A. The joint staff operated until the latter part of July. On the

10 1st of July, the HVO was established because the previous local government

11 was not even able to feed the population and the -- in the TO Vares, there

12 was a split. The Muslim members received instructions to leave it, and

13 were instructed to start establishing their own force which then later

14 became ABiH. It was a gradual process, it took about 20 days.

15 And my personal judgement, some of them found it difficult to

16 leave the joint staff, but eventually they all did leave it and then they

17 formed their own armed force.

18 Q. You said that even though with some difficulties, some found it

19 difficult, they still did leave it. Do you know why, under whose

20 directives?

21 A. That was under the instructions of the War Presidency which

22 consisted of members of the SDA. They first had headquarters in the

23 village of Strijezevo and then it was moved to Dabravine.

24 Q. The villages you just mentioned are, administratively speaking, in

25 the municipality of Vares?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You told the Trial Chamber that on the 1st of July 1992, the HVO

3 established a civilian government in Vares and you mentioned one reason

4 which was economic difficulties and the food shortages. But did the

5 previous government take adequate steps to ensure the defence against the

6 Bosnian Serb army and the JNA?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Can you tell me about this civilian government formed after July

9 1992? Did it consist exclusively of Croats or was it mixed ethnically?

10 A. This HVO civilian government was mixed. It also had some members

11 of the Muslim ethnic group, but non-SDA members.

12 Q. So far as you know, did these Muslims stay in their jobs until the

13 end?

14 A. Yes, until October and all the events that followed.

15 Q. You are now referring to 1993?

16 A. Yes, 1993.

17 Q. You partially answered what you mentioned in paragraph 7, but a

18 follow-up question is: You said that after July, the Muslim

19 representatives, that is Muslim officers, left the joint staff for the

20 defence of the town, and was there a new headquarters established?

21 A. Yes, a new HVO headquarters was established.

22 Q. Who was the commander of this staff?

23 A. The -- it was Borivoje Malbasic. He was -- he had been the

24 commander of the previous joint staff. He was the most experienced man.

25 He was the reserve officer of the former army, the JNA.

1 Q. Mr. Bozic, if you can just come closer to the microphone to

2 further assist the interpreters, because some of your answers may be

3 somewhat lost. Can you tell me when the Bobovac Brigade was established

4 in Vares?

5 A. The Bobovac Brigade was established towards the end of December

6 and included members of the territories of Vares and Kakanj.

7 Q. That was the initial formation of the Bobovac Brigade, and later

8 on, members of the brigade who were from Kakanj formed their own brigade,

9 Kotromanic.

10 A. Yes, I believe that that was in late March, early April of the

11 following year.

12 Q. You mean 1993?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Who became -- when the brigade was established, who became its

15 commander?

16 A. When the brigade was established, its commander became Emil Harah.

17 Q. And what was your position? To what position were you appointed?

18 A. I was appointed the head of the operational and educational

19 affairs in the brigade command.

20 Q. And you stayed in this position until this date, 24 October 1993,

21 which you mentioned previously?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. We can move on to the next section, that is paragraph 8, for Your

24 Honours.

25 Mr. Bozic, do you know of an event, a meeting held in Hotel

1 Ponikve in September of 1993?

2 A. Yes, I was present at all meetings and I think I know what you're

3 referring to.

4 Q. Can you tell us what kind of a meeting it was and why was it

5 convened?

6 A. The situation in the territory of Vares municipality and its

7 surroundings was very complex. We had intelligence reports that the

8 attacks of ABiH were pending and that they were being delayed only because

9 there were many displaced persons from Kakanj municipality, which included

10 many militarily-fit men.

11 After the discussion of the situation, which included all members

12 of the command and the local officials such as Anto Pejcinovic, they also

13 presented their positions, and Anto Pejcinovic pointed out that there was

14 a plan that in the event that ABiH launched a major attack against the

15 Bobovac Brigade, the BSA would come in to help, provide military

16 assistance.

17 Q. In this meeting, various scenarios were presented or were you

18 discussing only one option? Were you discussing what were the

19 alternatives in Vares should you be attacked by ABiH?

20 A. The other alternative was, and that was not discussed very much

21 but it would have been permitted to make a deal with the 2nd ABiH Corps

22 to -- but that was out of the question for us to become subordinated to

23 them. Those would have been just roving ideas.

24 Q. So Mr. Anto Pejcinovic presented this plan. Did he say where this

25 plan came from or how did he know about this potential plan? Did he

1 mention any details, a name of a town? Did you have any clues about the

2 source of his information?

3 A. Anto Pejcinovic had travelled to Herzegovina just before this

4 meeting, and he referred to the town of Grude. We all knew that he had

5 been there, and we did not second guess that. Now, in retrospect, I'm

6 questioning our assumptions, but I wasn't there.

7 Q. Did Mr. Anto Pejcinovic tell you with whom he had met in Grude?

8 Did he provide any information?

9 A. In this meeting, Anto Pejcinovic mentioned no names but in some

10 informal conversations, he mentioned a meeting with the late Mr. Boban.

11 Q. You have already answered this question, but let's try to be

12 perfectly clear. Did Mr. Anto Pejcinovic mention any name in relation to

13 that plan?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Can you tell me: Did Mr. Anto Pejcinovic show any document which

16 related to this plan during this meeting?

17 A. Anto Pejcinovic rarely produced any papers, any documents in any

18 of the meetings of the brigade command and he never showed it. We

19 couldn't see anything. There was nothing on the desk or anywhere else. I

20 personally did not see anything.

21 Q. Mr. Bozic, during my examination-in-chief, I will come back

22 several times to Witness AO. Now, for the record, do you know who I am

23 referring to when I mention that name?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. We told you his name when we discussed your evidence?

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1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Witness AO claims that he was present at that meeting in September

3 1993 when Mr. Anto Pejcinovic presented this potential plan, and this

4 witness stated expressly that Anto Pejcinovic mentioned the name of Dario

5 Kordic as the person who mentioned this plan to him. Was Witness AO

6 present at that meeting?

7 A. Witness AO was not at that meeting.

8 Q. Who was at that meeting, can you tell the Trial Chamber? You had

9 mentioned, but do it again.

10 A. Mostly it was members of the brigade command and members of the

11 HVO government: Anto Pejcinovic, Zvonko Duznovic, myself, Emil Harah, and

12 other members of the command.

13 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I had asked the

14 witness whether he knew the identity of Witness AO. If necessary, if the

15 Trial Chamber deems necessary, we could perhaps go into a private session

16 for a moment so that the witness can confirm that name if you deem it

17 necessary.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes, let's go into private session.

19 [Private session]

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

1 (redacted).

2 [Open session]

3 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]

4 Q. So if I understand you correctly, Mr. Bozic, in addition to the

5 command -- members of the command, it was only Anto Pejcinovic who was

6 present from the -- from outside?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Was Witness AO ever invited to the meetings of either the command

9 or any other top structures of Vares?

10 A. Witness AO was never -- was not part of that circle of people who

11 would be attending such meetings and he never was at any meetings that I

12 attended, and I don't believe that he was ever present at any meetings of

13 any import.

14 Q. I assume that given your duty of head of the operational and

15 educational affairs, you attended most of the meetings of the brigade

16 command.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. We can move on to paragraph 10, Your Honours. A couple of

19 questions on the events of October 1993. Even before the events of

20 October, were you in possession of some information on the ABiH plan to

21 take Vares? If you know about it, can you tell us what was the plan's

22 codename, what did you know about it?

23 A. Two or three months before the events of October, we had

24 intelligence reports that a plan was being developed to capture Vares and

25 its surroundings, that is, the entire zone of responsibility of Vares

1 Bobovac Brigade, and it was called Moba '93 and it became to be known

2 under that name after it was put into action.

3 Q. When did this attack start against the Vares municipality?

4 A. There were some sporadic skirmishes, but the all-out attack

5 started on the 17th, when Lijesnica was attacked, and then it was

6 continued on October 18 with the attack on the village of Kopljari, where

7 we had a lot of casualties because it was not well defended. I think that

8 it was on the 18th. I'm not exactly sure. It could have been the 19th.

9 Q. Very well. It was the 18th or 19th. But that was the

10 continuation of the Lijesnica attack?

11 A. Yes. That was the follow-up to that.

12 Q. You know the fate of the local inhabitants and what happened to

13 them and what happened to their houses.

14 A. The people started towards the village Borovica and the woods

15 there. Some ended up in Borovica and some in Vares proper.

16 Q. What about the houses?

17 A. About ten houses were torched. And it's a small village, so

18 proportionately it was heavily damaged.

19 Q. Did you inform your superior command on the event and about your

20 defeat at Kopljari and Lijesnica?

21 A. Yes. That was our duty.

22 Q. Who did you inform?

23 A. We informed the command in Vitez and the operative group command

24 in Kiseljak.

25 Q. Who was the commander of the district command -- the Operative

1 Zone -- the Central Bosnia Operative Zone was later renamed, but who was

2 its commander at the time that you're referring to?

3 A. It was Colonel Tihomir Blaskic.

4 Q. Very well. And who was the commander of the operative group in

5 Kiseljak?

6 A. Ivica Rajic at that time had no rank.

7 Q. Can you tell me: Did you receive any orders from your superior

8 command regarding your -- after your report on the situation in Kopljari?

9 A. Yes. We received orders to recapture the lost territory.

10 Q. In military terms, it means militarily recovered?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Mr. Bozic, were you able to carry out this order?

13 A. The Bobovac Brigade was unable to do so, and we sent a response to

14 that effect, given the size.

15 Q. To whom did you send this response? To one or to both commands?

16 A. To both of them, but we talked to the -- we sent the superior

17 command that response even before we were given those instructions.

18 Q. Very well. We can move on. In paragraph 11 you described an

19 event which took place on 20 October 1993, around 7.30 p.m. Can you

20 restate for the Trial Chamber what happened on that evening and where did

21 this event take place?

22 A. On 20 October 1993, around -- that is, between 7.00 and 7.30 p.m.,

23 Anto Pejcinovic and Zvonko Duznovic and two other men whom I did not know

24 arrived at the command of the Bobovac Brigade. The brigade commander was

25 not at the command post at the time. They requested to see combat

1 documents. I refused to provide them because only the unit commander can

2 provide that, plus they were people whom I did not know.

3 Q. So you refused to do that. Was there a reaction?

4 A. The reaction was fairly strong. They were saying, "We will fall

5 before you make up your mind," and it was not up to me to make up my mind,

6 so the voices were raised. The chief of staff, Miroslav Franjkic, came

7 in. Then he was sent to Kiseljak to come and bring Ivica Rajic, that is,

8 to bring in reinforcements for the defence lines. This is what we were

9 told. Can I move on?

10 Q. Please do.

11 A. Later on, around 10.30, the commander appeared at the command post

12 and I briefed him on the events. I told him what had happened. I told

13 him that Miroslav Franjkic had gone to Kiseljak and that he was to bring

14 in reinforcements. And then he said that he would not be able to control

15 the units that would come from Kiseljak, and if the reinforcements were

16 coming, that commander Ivica Rajic should command them. And he instructed

17 me to send a message to that effect, that nobody would be able to control

18 those units and that he himself should take over the command of them.

19 Q. We told the Trial Chamber before, but just to make the record

20 clear, your commander was who?

21 A. Emil Harah.

22 Q. So Emil Harah ordered you, and you carried it out, that Ivica

23 Rajic should be called in to take over the command over his own troops

24 because Emil Harah believed that he would not be able to exercise command

25 over those troops?

1 A. Yes.

2 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Naumovski, if you're coming to another paragraph,

3 that would be a convenient moment.

4 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Very well, Your Honour.

5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Bozic, we're going to adjourn now for half an

6 hour. During this adjournment and any other there may be, don't speak to

7 anybody about your evidence until it's over, and of course don't let

8 anybody speak to you about it. That does include members of the Defence

9 team. Could you be back, please, at half past 11.00.

10 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

11 --- On resuming at 11.35 a.m.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Sorry to keep you, Mr. Naumovski, there was some

13 administrative matters we had to deal with.

14 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

15 Q. We can move on to paragraph 12. Could you tell us, when did Ivica

16 Rajic arrive in Vares?

17 A. Commander Ivica Rajic came to Vares on the 21st in the -- around

18 4.00 in the morning, 21st of October 1993.

19 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation], Your Honours, we heard the

20 witness' answer to this question. I could just say that in paragraph 12

21 of the English version, there is -- the date is a mistake. It says the

22 20th of October; however, in the Croatian version, it says as the witness

23 has just told us, the 21st of October.

24 But I believe the chronology of the summary shows that it was an

25 error and we have given the Prosecutor's office also the Croatian version

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1 and they can check that. I do apologise for the mistake.

2 Q. So Mr. Bozic, tell us, how many, to your knowledge, soldiers came

3 with Commander Rajic?

4 A. Between 170 and 180.

5 Q. Tell us, please, where were those soldiers put up?

6 A. Those soldiers were put up at the Zabrezje barracks.

7 Q. The Zabrezje barracks is separated from the command which was at

8 the Ponikve Hotel. How far was it?

9 A. Some 4 kilometres.

10 Q. Tell us, after he came to Vares on the 21st of October, 1993, did

11 Mr. Rajic come to the command?

12 A. Yes. Right away, that morning, as soon as they arrived, he came

13 to the command with Borivoje Malbasic who at that time held an office and

14 he also met Emil Harah. They took the documents and they went to the

15 Commander Emil Harah.

16 Q. They took the documents from you, you gave them the documents?

17 A. Yes, because I was the operations man and I was responsible for

18 keeping combat documents.

19 Q. You used an acronym when you mentioned Mr. Malbasic. You said

20 that he had an office in the "OG" and you mean the Operations Group

21 Kiseljak?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. "OG" is the operations group. Tell us, please, Mr. Bozic, on the

24 21st of October, 1993, in the afternoon of that day, was a meeting held at

25 your command as we have already explained the Court, the command which was

1 at the Ponikve Hotel?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Will you please be so kind and tell us where was the meeting held,

4 what room, and who attended the meeting?

5 A. The meeting took place in the conference room where the commander

6 usually met for sessions, and they were present in addition to members of

7 the command. There was also Anto Pejcinovic, president of the Croat

8 Defence Council.

9 Q. Very well. Let us try to be even more specific. In addition to

10 the members of the brigade command and Mr. Pejcinovic, was there anyone

11 else there?

12 A. No, some unit commanders but nobody outside the brigade, nobody

13 outside the brigade command, the highest ranking commanders.

14 Q. Yes, yes, I understand but I wasn't sure. Do I understand that

15 Ivica Rajic and Borivoje Malbasic were there?

16 A. Yes. Yes, that's why the meeting was convened because that wasn't

17 the usual time.

18 Q. I mean you did not mention them a moment ago so that is why I had

19 to ask you. Very well, thank you. And tell us, please --

20 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps this is the

21 right time. We have a map, and perhaps the witness could show us some

22 places, some reference points which are of military relevance. Perhaps it

23 would be best to use the colour map to put on the ELMO and we can then

24 produce the -- its copies as exhibits.

25 THE REGISTRAR: The map will be number D295/1.

1 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Mr. Bozic, will you please help us, because you know what we are

3 interested in. You will find the pointer somewhere there and will you

4 then please show us, if you can -- will you please show us where is the

5 village of Kopljari if it is on the map?

6 A. No, it is not.

7 Q. Very well. Well then I do apologise. Then we shall use the map

8 later, but could the usher please affix it somehow and we shall come back

9 to it later. My apologies.

10 You can leave the map for a moment, and we shall go back to that

11 topic, to the meeting that was held on the 21st of October, 1993, in the

12 afternoon of the day at the command. What was discussed at the meeting?

13 A. The discussion focussed on the order to recover the lost

14 territories, but the brigade commander, helped by the head of the staff

15 and my help, he presented the situation in the area of responsibility of

16 the HVO Bobovac Brigade and its vicinity. He spoke about all the

17 difficulties that he had with the deployment of the brigade forces and

18 forces confronting the brigade, that is, forces of the potential enemy.

19 Q. Very well. You told us that that meeting took place in the

20 conference room. Tell us, please, what kind of door does that room have?

21 Can one see through the door?

22 A. Yes, because it is a glass door.

23 Q. And tell us, please, during the meeting, did anyone leave the

24 conference room?

25 A. Of those present at the meeting, nobody left the room, only two,

1 that is the commander of a battalion and a commander of the signals

2 platoon were late for the meeting.

3 Q. Could you give the Court their names?

4 A. Mario -- Commander Mario Andric and the commander of signals

5 platoon, Tvrtko Jelic.

6 Q. Tell us, please, to be even more specific, did Ivica Rajic ever

7 leave the room during the meeting?

8 A. No. Nobody left the conference room. That includes Ivica Rajic.

9 Q. And tell us, please. In addition to the members of the brigade

10 command and Ivica Rajic, Borivoje Malbasic, and Anto Pejcinovic, was that

11 meeting attended by anybody else?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You heard the claim of the Witness AO, who affirms that he was

14 present at the meeting. Was he?

15 A. He wasn't.

16 Q. Witness AO, apart from claiming that he was at the meeting, also

17 asserted that the meeting was held on the 20th of October, 1993 at that

18 same place, that is, the Ponikve Hotel. Is that correct?

19 A. That is impossible. That is not correct.

20 Q. Was there any meeting of the brigade command on the 20th of

21 October, 1993, in the evening hours?

22 A. No.

23 Q. You have already told us that Witness AO was not present at the

24 brigade command meetings ever.

25 A. No, he did not.

1 Q. Let me phrase it differently. Was there any need for his

2 presence?

3 A. No.

4 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Very well. We can move on to

5 paragraphs 15 and 16, Your Honours.

6 Q. You have told us that at that meeting your commander, that is, the

7 brigade commander, Emil Harah, with your assistance, and you were the

8 commander of the Operations and Educational Unit, and Miroslav Franjkic as

9 the head of the staff, that he briefed you about the situation in the area

10 of responsibility of the brigade.

11 A. Yes, and its vicinity.

12 Q. Yes, naturally. And tell us, please: Was there any mention of

13 the village Stupni Do and position there?

14 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] And perhaps now is the right time

15 to ask the usher to help us with the map on the ELMO so that you could

16 explain a little bit the situation to us.

17 Q. So the first question was: Was, within that context, the

18 situation at Stupni Do mentioned, I mean its geographic location?

19 A. Yes, yes.

20 Q. So will you please show the Court where it is, that is, basic

21 things here. You can see the town of Vares. Yes. Very well. Could you

22 lower down the map. Yes. This is very good. Thank you. So this is

23 Stupni Do.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And the town of Vares, will you please show us. Very well. So

1 this is the town of Vares. And the village of Mir, please. Where is it?

2 A. Here.

3 Q. And could you move it a little bit up. Yes. So would you show us

4 Budozelje. Could you point at Budozelje. So this is Budozelje. Very

5 well. Now you can bring it down a little bit so that we can see Stupni

6 Do, so that we have Stupni Do before us. Very well. You can leave it

7 like that. You can leave it like that. You can leave the map like this.

8 Thank you.

9 Will you be so kind, Mr. Bozic, and tell the Court: Within what

10 context did the brigade commander refer to the location of Stupni Do and

11 situation there, and give us the strategic points around that village that

12 he pointed out.

13 A. The village Stupni Do, there were -- large forces of the BH army

14 were stationed in the village of Stupni Do because Stupni Do had direct

15 communication with the Serb army, the army of Bosnian Serbs. So the front

16 line had to be very strong here. And they also had organised facilities

17 on the other side of the village, that is, the hill feature Bogos 216.

18 And from it one could keep under control the town of Vares, Vares-Majdan,

19 with artillery pieces, and towards the heart of the town with light

20 cannons; that is, it was within the range of 120-millimetre mortars.

21 Q. So this hill feature Bogos, militarily speaking, it was not on the

22 side facing the Serbs but on the side facing you, actually, the HVO, is

23 it?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Tell us, please: From that hill feature could one see the road

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1 leading into the town of Vares?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Very well. Now could you point at the villages Zubata and Ravne

4 on the map, if they're shown on the map, that is.

5 A. Zubata and Ravne.

6 Q. And to the left, right above them, is Dastansko, isn't it, above,

7 on the top?

8 A. Yes, correct.

9 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

10 Your Honours, if you do not have any questions about the map, then

11 I shall not need it anymore. If you have any questions about this map,

12 then -- because I shall not need the map again.

13 JUDGE MAY: No.

14 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you, usher, for

15 your help.

16 Q. Mr. Bozic, we were talking about the hill feature at Bogos, but

17 from the village Stupni Do itself, could one, in militarily terms, have

18 control over the main road leading to Vares?

19 A. Why, yes, because from that road, that is, in the immediate

20 vicinity of this road, there was the local road leading to Stupni Do.

21 Because this was in their area of responsibility, they had their

22 checkpoint there.

23 Q. Yes, but from a different point of view, if one used ordinary

24 infantry weapons, was that road within the range of ordinary infantry

25 weapons?

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. So you told the Court that there was talk about the situation in

3 the area of responsibility of your brigade and that you analysed all

4 options that were on the table; is that so?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. What was specifically said about the village of Stupni Do in

7 relation to this hill feature at Bogos, that is, possible line of the

8 link-up of forces between Zubata, Stupni Do, Bogos, and Ravne?

9 A. Because we knew about the plan Moba 93, the objective of which was

10 to link up the forces of the 2nd and 3rd Corps of the ABiH, according to

11 the plan, that was the way to ensure that these forces could join, that

12 is, from the areas of Ravne and Zubata, through Dastansko, to join the

13 forces at Zubata and Budozelje, which would eliminate the forces that were

14 stationed in the village of Mir. And also some other actions directed at

15 the town were being planned. We knew about that.

16 Q. You have shown us that on the map already, but shall we repeat

17 it. So the Croat village of Mir is between two Muslim localities,

18 Budozelje and Stupni Do; is that so?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And tell us, please: In spite of that thorough analysis of the

21 military situation on the ground, did the meeting take any decision

22 whatsoever about attacking any direction of those that you mentioned?

23 A. I should like to make one point clear too. The focus was on the

24 recovery of the territory around the village of Kopljari, and all the rest

25 were simply the consequences that might ensue if any military operations

1 were undertaken against the forces of the BH army. That is, we were

2 looking for an answer to the question: Is it possible to recover the lost

3 territory? Because the situation was very complex; it was very

4 difficult. Because the situation was very complex and complicated, no

5 decision was taken about any offensive operations, and instead it was

6 decided to reinforce all defence lines of the HVO Bobovac Brigade.

7 Q. I believe we already said so yesterday with a different witness,

8 with Mr. Vidovic, but just briefly once again, how far is the village of

9 Kopljari from the town of Vares if you know, approximately?

10 A. Well, one could see on the map that it could be something around

11 80 [as interpreted] kilometres.

12 Q. Very well, thank you. And so to conclude this topic, that is the

13 meeting that we are talking about. There is a mistake. It says 80

14 kilometres, it's 8 kilometres, 8 kilometres. No, no, it is 8 kilometres.

15 Yes, very well, just a technical error. So let us conclude with this

16 topic. Was any decision taken at that meeting?

17 A. No, no decision except the conclusion to reinforce all of the

18 front lines, and they should be assisted in this by all the forces who had

19 arrived from the OG, from the operations group at Kiseljak.

20 Q. My colleagues keep warning me to slow down a little bit, so shall

21 we also try to do so now. I'm asking you also to make a break between my

22 question and your answer and I, of course, have to take note of this.

23 A. I apologise.

24 Q. I do too. So on the 22nd of October, 1993, was there a new

25 meeting on that day, which is paragraph 18?

1 A. On the 22nd of October, in the evening hours, sometime between

2 1800 and 1830, I was called to come to the Zabrezje barracks as it was the

3 seat of the 1st Battalion, and this territory was in its area of

4 responsibility, and I was asked to bring papers from the command because

5 the battalion had only the documents that related to their particular

6 sector.

7 So I went to Zabrezje with the necessary documentation that had

8 been requested, and there was a meeting up there attended by the commander

9 of that battalion whose area of responsibility it was. There was Ivica

10 Rajic, Borivoje Malbasic, Emil Harah, and two commanders of units which

11 had just arrived. They were already there when I went in. My impression

12 wasn't that they had been discussing anything of particular consequence

13 before I had arrived.

14 Q. And the commander of the battalion who hosted that meeting, what

15 was his name?

16 A. Marcel Dusper.

17 Q. And the same question at that meeting on the 22nd of October,

18 1993, at the Zabrezje barracks, was it attended by Witness AO?

19 A. No.

20 Q. And tell us, please, what did that particular meeting discuss?

21 A. That day, Commander Ivica Rajic, in view of the meeting of the

22 previous day, and the conclusions, he had reconnoitred the ground together

23 with Borivoje Malbasic and his closer associates. And in the broader area

24 of the villages of Dragovici, Mijakovici, and Kopljari from our side, that

25 is, from the side of the area of responsibility of the Bobovac Brigade.

1 And so on the basis of that, one had to consider the situation again

2 because it was only then that Commander Rajic had acquainted himself with

3 the territory.

4 Q. And this reconnaissance includes also the position of the

5 Dragovicko hill?

6 A. Yes. I mean the positions of the ABiH army were on Dragovicko

7 hill and the villages and all the rest, but the fortified facilities were

8 on the Dragovicko hill and other hills and so on. And when I refer to

9 villages, I'm referring to areas of those villages and positions were on

10 different hill features and facilities.

11 Q. Yes, we've already learned that we had to tell military positions

12 from villages as a geographic sites, and I believe the Court is well aware

13 of that.

14 Very well. So the discussion was about what had been established

15 during that reconnoitering mission by the commanders?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And did -- were, once again, all possible -- all possibilities

18 regarding the development of the situation were again thrashed out after

19 the meeting of the 21st of October, 1993?

20 A. As far as this reconnoitering is concerned, it was decided, should

21 any activities be carried out, that significant forces would be needed and

22 that would weaken the defence lines and so all options were taken into

23 account and all circumstances which had also been discussed the previous

24 day. This was done more briefly than the day before because the previous

25 day there were some introductory things because it was the initial contact

1 with Commander Rajic and that is, in a nutshell, what happened.

2 Q. Can you tell me whether, in this meeting which you attended, was

3 any decision taken on the attack about the direction of the attack,

4 anything relating to that?

5 A. I was present at the meeting until 8.15 p.m. and until that point,

6 no decision had been taken. Only before my departure, Rajic had told one

7 of his subordinate commanders, something like, "That means my friend that

8 we are going to reinforce the lines." And these two subordinate

9 commanders left before I did.

10 Q. When you left the meeting, in your view, were serious debates

11 going to continue or was this serious discussion over by that time you

12 left?

13 A. I believe that I had not been allowed to leave had there been any

14 further discussions at hand. I need to point out that I had not taken any

15 documents with me. They stayed with the commander. I went to visit my

16 children who were staying with my grandmother because I was just widowed a

17 couple months before that.

18 Q. So after the meeting, you went to visit your children?

19 A. Yes, I went to see the children who were in Vares, Majdan, staying

20 with their grandmother. On the way, I also -- on the way back, I stopped

21 by my parents in Vares. That was around 10.30 and then I went back to the

22 command post at Ponikve where I arrived around 2300 hours.

23 Q. When you came back to the hotel around 2300 hours to rest, did you

24 notice anything unusual or was the situation regular?

25 A. I looked for the commander but from people on duty, I learned that

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1 he was not in the headquarters and I assumed that he, too, went to see his

2 family just as I did, and I went to rest.

3 Q. Was the situation usual, like it was routine like any other night?

4 A. Yes, there were a couple of -- some people who were not asleep or

5 playing cards in the restaurant.

6 Q. When did you first learn that something was going on in the area

7 of Stupni Do?

8 A. On the 23rd of October 1993 in the morning, just before 7.00, I

9 was awakened by the Commander Emil Harah. He told me that our forces had

10 been attacked in the area of Mir and that they were asking for

11 reinforcements and that reinforcements had been sent. He also told me

12 that he had spoken with Zvonko Duznovic, the chief of security. That

13 apparently he was in the village of Stupni Do, that he reached no

14 agreements there. That he brought out a family, the wife of this -- the

15 woman was an ethnic Croat and that they were pulling out towards

16 Dabravine.

17 Q. Let's try to further specify this. Emil Harah told you about this

18 relating to Zvonko Duznovic?

19 A. Yes, I only know about it from what he told me about it.

20 Q. When you mentioned reinforcements in the area of Mir, did he tell

21 you what units went to reinforce the lines at the village of Mir?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Were the local units, the Bobovac Brigade units or the ones who

24 had arrived from Kiseljak?

25 A. He only told me that Ivica Rajic and Borivoje Malbasic knew about

1 it and that they went there.

2 Q. What did you do after that? If you can just state very briefly,

3 what did you do?

4 A. First, I went to take care of my children because they were very

5 close to the zone of operations or potential operations.

6 Q. Was that in Vares, Majdan?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. This is the area that can be visually seen from Stupni Do?

9 A. Yes, I didn't stay there very long because I already saw that

10 things were going on that some people were being detained. The soldiers

11 who were detaining people were the military police. And then I went back

12 to the headquarters, and the situation was such that as I passed through

13 Vares. A friend told me that my sister's husband, who was an ethnic

14 Muslim had also been taken somewhere. Then I went back to the

15 headquarters.

16 Q. The soldiers who you noticed who were detaining Muslims, did you

17 know him?

18 A. They had their faces painted. It would be hard for me to identify

19 them. I cannot tell you exactly who was involved. And as far as the

20 military police is concerned, we had no authority over them because they

21 were not in our chain of command.

22 Q. Can you tell me, where did you go there? Did you go to the

23 headquarters?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Who did you find there? Where was the commander at that time?

1 A. I cannot tell you exactly when this was. It couldn't have been

2 later than 9.30 to 10.00. I was told that the commander was at the

3 municipal headquarters.

4 Q. Who told you this? I didn't hear that.

5 A. Miroslav Franjkic. He was in the headquarters.

6 Q. Did he tell you whether the information was coming from the field

7 or from the ground from your subordinate units?

8 A. He told me that no information was coming. So we contacted that

9 2nd and 3rd Battalion to find out what was going on, and we heard that in

10 their sectors, there was no movement of forces. And at first, we could

11 not contact the 1st Battalion, and after we did, we heard that there was

12 intense fighting in the area of Stupni Do.

13 And Marcel Dusper told us -- the commander told us that according

14 to the information he received from his subordinates, a group of 20 to 30

15 soldiers, ABiH troops, had been redeployed from Budozelje to Stupni Do and

16 that another group who was trying to join up with them was prevented from

17 doing this.

18 Q. Did this group also have a name? Can you tell us what it was

19 called, the group which, according to what you were told, entered the

20 village of Stupni Do?

21 A. We assumed that these were the special units called "Laste" or

22 "Swallows", because they were well trained and equipped for such

23 operations.

24 Q. Mr. Bozic, have you ever learned from then until today who ordered

25 the attack on Stupni Do?

1 A. At no meeting held subsequently, nobody ever mentioned the events

2 at Stupni Do nor were details of it ever discussed.

3 Q. Have you ever seen any document, written order or any such thing,

4 related to the event?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Thank you. We can move to the next topic, Witness AO, and I only

7 have several questions for you.

8 Did you know him during the war, and what can you tell us about

9 him, very briefly?

10 A. I knew Witness AO very superficially before and during the war.

11 During the war I got to know him a little bit better. He was dressing a

12 bit strangely; that is, he was wearing various uniforms with various

13 insignia. He had a -- he was carrying a sort of rifle and a shotgun. He

14 was also known as a black marketeer. He was engaging in contraband of

15 various things. We were puzzled about him. He was supplying all sides

16 with things that were needed at the time, and so he was able to get passes

17 and permits to move about freely, which was unusual for the time. He

18 claimed to be a member of various units of the brigade and then special

19 units that were attached to Anto, then to HOS.

20 Q. I'm sorry for --

21 A. (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted).

24 Q. (redacted).

25 MR. NAUMOVSKI: (redacted)

1 (redacted).

2 Q. You said that Witness AO was wearing different types of uniforms.

3 You mean uniforms belonging to different armed forces?

4 A. He was wearing sometimes a black uniform, sometimes a camouflage

5 uniform, and then a special type of uniform that was used by the Bosnian

6 Serb army. We knew that there were various informal channels where he

7 could get these uniforms, but that was unusual.

8 Q. You mentioned that he was also saying that he was -- he had been a

9 member of HOS. Was he ever a member of HOS?

10 A. The HOS, as such, only existed in Vares at the beginning of the

11 war. There were about ten members that belonged to the HOS and he was

12 definitely not one of them. We knew who they were. And after the HVO was

13 established, HOS ceased to exist and was just not present in Vares. And

14 after July 1992, no one was a member of HOS in Vares.

15 Q. I need to tell you about a claim of Witness AO, that he was a HOS

16 major. Is that possible?

17 A. Had he been a major at that time, by now he would have been a

18 general.

19 Q. Thank you. From what you said, I may have another question that

20 follows from what you said. Did you know at the time that he was freely

21 moving not only through the territory controlled by the HVO but through

22 the area controlled by the ABiH and BSA?

23 A. Yes. He himself talked about it.

24 Q. Do you know who was Mijo Mrlic?

25 A. He was a parish priest in Vares. He was the parish priest of the

1 St. Mihovil church in Vares.

2 Q. Was this throughout the war?

3 A. Throughout the war.

4 Q. Have you heard -- did you hear at a later time something about the

5 relationship of Mijo Mrlic, who was then in charge of the Caritas office

6 in Vares and Witness AO?

7 A. Yes. I learned that from people who communicated -- who had

8 contacts with Vares that he was giving out passes for humanitarian aid for

9 the Muslims that were issued by Caritas, so that -- and then he was posing

10 as a representative of the Caritas and took some goods, about 60 tonnes,

11 and these goods simply disappeared.

12 Q. Now, a question relating to the situation in Vares. When did you

13 leave Vares, and not only you, but the inhabitants of Vares?

14 A. In the period of 31 October to 2 November, the combat operations

15 intensified and the defence lines were shrinking until it was necessary to

16 pull out the civilians in order to avoid casualties. And what followed

17 was a certain confusion among the enlisted men, because some of them went

18 to take care of their children. And so between the 2nd and 3rd, Vares was

19 practically abandoned.

20 Q. You're referring to the 2nd and 3rd of November, 1993?

21 A. Yes, that is correct.

22 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I had planned to

23 show a short clip, 30 seconds, but there has been some confusion. I ask

24 to be able to show it after -- in redirect, and this is relating to the

25 time when the witness and other inhabitants left Vares.

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1 JUDGE MAY: Yes, or you can interpose it during cross-examination,

2 if that would be more convenient, after the adjournment.

3 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 Q. And the last topic, Mr. Bozic. Just a couple of questions

5 relating to Dario Kordic. Can you tell me: You heard about Mr. Kordic's

6 activities, I assume, that you have had an opportunity to see him on

7 television or somewhere in the media. What did he represent for you, as a

8 soldier?

9 A. I met Mr. Dario Kordic in Busovaca in the summer of 1992 during

10 the seminar about the Geneva Conventions for protection of human rights

11 organised by the UNHCR. It was a seminar which took two and a half, three

12 hours, after which we filled some tests, and I still have it with me at

13 home in Zagreb as a souvenir. And that is when I met Mr. Dario Kordic,

14 when he addressed the people and pointed the significance of this seminar

15 for the HVO. To me, Mr. Dario Kordic was exclusively a politician.

16 Q. Can you tell me: Did Mr. Dario Kordic ever issue any military

17 order for combat operations to your command? And you were one of the

18 ranking officers there.

19 A. No. We never received any instruction or order from Mr. Dario

20 Kordic. We never communicated with Busovaca anyway, because we were

21 subordinate to Kiseljak, so the chain of command did not go through

22 Busovaca at all. And had we even received anything like that, we would

23 have had to clear it with our superior command, because we wouldn't have

24 been allowed to follow any such orders.

25 Q. So the conclusion is that you only carried out orders of your own

1 superior command?

2 A. That is correct.

3 Q. Let me put it to you this way. You said that you never received

4 any orders from Dario Kordic, and had you even received it, you would not

5 have carried it out. But did you ever receive any orders from the

6 municipal government, Anto Pejcinovic or anybody else?

7 A. The municipal government was only involved with the brigade in

8 matters of logistics. People from the civilian government did meet with

9 the military occasionally, but as far as the brigade is concerned, it was

10 part of the chain of command as it was set out in the rules.

11 Q. So it was exclusively along the military lines?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you tell me: Do you know when Mr. Kordic was in Vares for the

14 last time before the war, and when was the last time you saw him?

15 A. I definitely did not see -- have not seen Dario Kordic since

16 September of 1992, until now.

17 Q. You told the Trial Chamber about your recollections of meetings in

18 September and October. Was Mr. Kordic's name mentioned in any of these

19 meetings?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Let me ask you even more specifically. Did Mr. Ivica Rajic, when

22 he, in October, attended the meetings which you refer to, personally

23 mention Mr. Kordic's name?

24 A. No.

25 Q. You were in the inner circle of the Bobovac Brigade command. In

1 your recollection, did Mr. Kordic have anything to do with the events in

2 Vares in October and November 1993?

3 A. In military aspect of it, he definitely had none, and I don't know

4 about any other aspects. I was a soldier and I did not engage in

5 political affairs.

6 Q. Relative to these events, have you heard names of any other

7 politician mentioned other than Mr. Kordic?

8 A. No.

9 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Bozic.

10 Your Honours, that concludes my examination-in-chief.

11 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I will have just two short

12 questions. Since the witness mentioned it, I will use the opportunity.

13 Cross-examined by Mr. Kovacic:

14 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Bozic. My name is Bozidar Kovacic, I'm an

15 attorney from Rijeka, and I represent Mr. Cerkez here. Unfortunately, I

16 have not had the opportunity to meet with you previously. I'll ask you a

17 couple of questions.

18 Towards the end of your evidence you mentioned a seminar organised

19 by the international organisations in Busovaca dealing with humanitarian

20 rights. Do you remember that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Was that in October 1992?

23 A. I cannot give you a precise answer. I know that it was in the

24 latter part of 1992.

25 Q. But you cannot specify it more than that?

1 A. No.

2 Q. Do you recall whether this seminar was organised by the ICRC?

3 A. They were giving it, but it was organised by the UNHCR.

4 Q. I just want to make sure that we're talking about the same

5 seminar, because apparently there were several of them. On the basis of

6 your previous experience, that is, with the former Yugoslavia, were you

7 impressed by the approach to the seminar, the methods?

8 A. Yes. I remember the presentation was at a very high level. There

9 were slides and there were pictures.

10 Q. Was it a full-day seminar?

11 A. I think it was uninterrupted, two to three hours.

12 Q. It was an intensive seminar?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you received certain materials to take back to your units?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. In -- let me ask you this. Were representatives of various

17 municipal headquarters of the HVO present there?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Do you remember whether a representative of Vitez headquarters was

20 also present?

21 A. I am certain that all municipalities were represented but I cannot

22 give you specific names, but all municipalities were represented because

23 that was a period when everybody could move about and operate freely.

24 Q. Have you, by any chance, met Mr. Zvonko Cilic? Does that name

25 ring a bell for you?

1 A. No, it doesn't. During the war I met a host of various

2 individuals and with this distance of six years, it is hard for me to

3 distinguish between them.

4 Q. Did you give a recommendation to use the materials you received to

5 pass it on to your troops and use it for the education of your troops?

6 A. That was the purpose of the seminar.

7 Q. Another point. You said towards the end of your evidence that the

8 military police was not in the chain of command of the brigade.

9 A. Yes, they had their own chain of command which they followed. So

10 our commander could not directly command the military police.

11 Q. You mean the brigade commander could not directly issue orders to

12 the military police commander?

13 A. Yes, not without special permission of the military police

14 command.

15 Q. In other words, in order for a brigade commander to be able to

16 issue some order to the military police, he would have had to go to the

17 military police headquarters command in order to be given permission to do

18 so?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. He could ask from the military police command that a local

21 military police unit do or not do something?

22 A. Yes, he could ask them to be attached to him for a certain period

23 of time or for a certain purpose.

24 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you Your Honours, that's all I

25 have.

1 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice:

2 Q. Why do you live in Croatia?

3 A. Because I cannot live in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

4 Q. Why can't you live in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

5 A. I have no means of livelihood there.

6 Q. You were named by General Ramsey days after Stupni Do as being

7 responsible, weren't you, named publicly?

8 A. I have had an opportunity to see that on the satellite programme

9 of the Zagreb, that is, Croatian television pictures which there is a

10 picture. Major Vidner [phoen] from NordBat saw that and I think that he

11 sent the report that that was not so. That is what he told me, that he

12 would inform the United Nations that that was not true.

13 Q. You've been investigated in Bosnia-Herzegovina for what happened

14 in Stupni Do, haven't you?

15 A. I do not know about being under investigation.

16 Q. The reason you won't go back to Bosnia-Herzegovina is because you

17 fear you would be arrested and tried?

18 A. Reasons for my life in Croatia, for my residency of Croatia, are

19 of purely economic nature, financial nature.

20 Q. You tell us that Kordic was only a politician. You will, no

21 doubt, have been aware of articles describing Stupni Do by Pejcinovic.

22 Just look at this exhibit.

23 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I haven't got it copied yet. It can be

24 copied in due course. It's to be Z2703.1, and I'll have it copied after

25 lunch. Can it just go straight on the ELMO for the time being? We'll

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1 copy it later.

2 Q. Just look at the photograph, please. Can you tell us, please, how

3 it comes that there are photographs of Mr. Kordic like this?

4 JUDGE MAY: Just one moment. Now, what is this?

5 MR. NICE: This is for the photograph, not for the text.

6 JUDGE MAY: Where does it come from?

7 MR. NICE: It comes from a newspaper.

8 JUDGE MAY: I don't remember it in the evidence.

9 MR. NICE: No, it's not in yet. This is a new exhibit. That's

10 what I have indicated.

11 JUDGE MAY: Why is it coming in in this way, Mr. Nice?

12 MR. NICE: This witness has said Mr. Kordic is entirely a

13 politician.

14 JUDGE MAY: People have been saying that for practically the whole

15 trial.

16 MR. NICE: Certainly.

17 JUDGE MAY: But why haven't you put this in before?

18 MR. NICE: I haven't seen this one before, and this is a new and

19 different one.

20 JUDGE MAY: You haven't seen it?

21 MR. NICE: No, I haven't seen it before. It's a recent photograph

22 or recently available to me.

23 JUDGE MAY: Well, we need to consider this, because putting

24 material in at this late stage raises questions of fairness. The Defence

25 ought to know the case which they have to meet and the Trial Chamber ought

1 to know the case it has to decide by the end of the Prosecution case.

2 Now, here is material coming in --

3 MR. NICE: Can I deal with Your Honour's concerns in this way?

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

5 MR. NICE: You will remember there is an earlier but different --

6 similar but different photograph which was, indeed, adduced as part of our

7 case in chief.

8 JUDGE MAY: I remember that. Was it identified as being

9 Mr. Kordic?

10 MR. NICE: Certainly it was, yes. And with the probability of

11 being taken at Tisovac with the trees in the background.

12 JUDGE MAY: I remember the photograph. I don't remember the

13 evidence that it was, in fact, him. But in any event, I don't think it's

14 going do help to have this witness look at it.

15 MR. NICE: Very well. But can I just explain the sequence of

16 events that make another photograph relevant? There was then some

17 evidence from a witness, I can't immediately pinpoint it, to the effect

18 that he had a photograph of himself dressed in military outfit as if it

19 was something that people did. Well, of course, the more you get of the

20 same sort of thing, the less likely it's just dressing up.

21 If Your Honour is concerned about it, I'll withdraw it and move to

22 something else.

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes, yes. If you would withdraw it, and perhaps if

24 you can, so as to remind me, I recollect the photograph very well. I do

25 not recollect the evidence that it was Mr. Kordic. Perhaps you could

1 refer me to it in due course. Not immediately, of course.

2 MR. NICE: I think we will be able to do that after the lunch

3 adjournment.

4 [Trial Chamber confers]

5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, we've considered the matter and we think, on

6 reflection, that there may be something in putting this to the witness but

7 before that's done, we'll hear from the Defence.

8 What's proposed is that this photograph, this newspaper article,

9 should be put to the witness for his comment on the basis that he says

10 that Mr. Kordic is a politician. Do you want to make any observation on

11 that?

12 MR. SAYERS: Obviously we've never seen the article before,

13 Mr. President. Could we know what date it is, what date the newspaper

14 article appeared? Also, generally speaking, it seems that the sort of

15 trial by newspaper article is a very dangerous slope to start sliding

16 down, and it appears that we are gaining speed in that endeavour. I just

17 make that observation.

18 I think whenever newspaper articles are shown, they come with the

19 weight that newspaper articles obviously do, but also I think it's

20 important to know what the date of these articles is to place them in the

21 proper context.

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes, I agree.

23 MR. NICE: Yes, this article, I haven't the full detail. It's a

24 1999 article that Pejcinovic published. The first three were published

25 earlier, that we were looking at yesterday, and then he published another

1 article with this photograph. But I think we've also got other copies. I

2 am now informed, although I haven't seen this photograph myself, I gather

3 the photograph does exist in other places and we probably can track it

4 down to an earlier date.

5 To remind the Chamber of the evidence, it was Witness T in the

6 Prosecution's case through whom the original -- the other photograph was

7 introduced. There was no challenge to the identity. I said that the

8 photograph would have to speak for itself so far as the probable

9 background and location was concerned.

10 Then in the Defence case, that same photograph was put to the

11 witness Zoran Maric. He offered, as an explanation, that Mr. Kordic was

12 simply posing in the photograph and then went on to say that he had had a

13 photograph like that of himself.

14 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Yes. Thank you. Could you tell us what

15 the exhibit number of that photograph was?

16 MR. NICE: The other exhibit, Ms. Verhaag, I think, has made them

17 close together, one to the other, and I suspect that the first photograph

18 is 2703. Yes, the first photograph is 2703 for this one to become

19 2703.1.

20 JUDGE MAY: Well, you could put it, for the moment, to the

21 witness?

22 MR. NICE: Thank you.

23 JUDGE MAY: We'll consider what to do in due course.

24 MR. NICE: I'll provide a copy of the newspaper article to the

25 Defence.

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes, let the witness have it.

2 MR. NICE:

3 Q. Look, please, at this photograph. That's a photograph of

4 Mr. Kordic. Can you explain, please, how he can be seen in this

5 photograph dressed like that when you say the man is purely a politician?

6 A. When you asked your question, you said that this illustrated an

7 article by Anto Pejcinovic. He has photographs like this even though he

8 considers himself as a politician. This is merely posing, that is how I

9 see that.

10 Q. And let's, as it were, mentally detach the firearm. When you saw

11 Mr. Kordic, did you see him dressed in the way that he's shown here, in

12 camouflage uniform with a cross prominently around his neck?

13 A. On the day when I met Mr. Kordic, he was wearing civilian

14 clothes. But on television, I would see him in a camouflage uniform from

15 time to time, but that was nothing -- didn't strike me as odd at that time

16 because during the war, I saw other politicians in camouflage uniforms,

17 not only this one, others too.

18 Q. Thank you. You mentioned Mr. Pejcinovic. Tell us, please, do you

19 and he have any reason to have fallen out?

20 A. No, not to my mind.

21 Q. And he, so far as you know, Pejcinovic, is morally blameless for

22 Stupni Do?

23 A. I would not know that anyone could really be called to account for

24 Stupni Do.

25 Q. Could it --

1 A. And the same holds true with Pejcinovic.

2 Q. You have no evidence, no hint, no rumour, ever, to suggest that

3 Pejcinovic is blameworthy in respect of Stupni Do?

4 A. I don't.

5 Q. Indeed, although your statement doesn't deal with it, you know

6 perfectly well that he was arrested at the time of Stupni Do, along with

7 others, and kept out of the way; correct?

8 A. I would not call it an arrest, but yes, he was kept aside with

9 another three men. I know that.

10 Q. Harah, the man Harah, he likewise, to your knowledge, is in no way

11 to blame for Stupni Do, is he?

12 A. No, he is not to blame.

13 Q. Unless it be the case that he feels some moral guilt for not

14 having been able to stop events which were overtaking him, but that apart,

15 he's morally blameless; correct?

16 A. Could you repeat the question, please? I didn't quite get what

17 you meant.

18 Q. Of course. It may be that Mr. Harah feels some responsibility for

19 not having been able to stop events that overtook him in the form of Ivica

20 Rajic, but that apart, he, Harah, has no blame for Stupni Do; he wasn't

21 involved, he didn't go and massacre people, did he?

22 A. I do not know how Mr. Harah feels himself, but I don't think there

23 is any reason to accuse him of anything.

24 Q. Thank you. Where does he live now? Do you know?

25 A. No, I don't know. The last time I saw him was in Kiseljak in

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1 1994, February, sometime in February.

2 Q. But of course he, Emil Harah, would be much closer to the events

3 and to what happened in Stupni Do than you, because he was, until the end,

4 the commander of the brigade?

5 A. I suppose he would have been a more trustworthy witness.

6 Q. Because you come here and you eventually say, "I can give you all

7 this background, but I can't tell you what happened." That's really your

8 evidence, is it?

9 A. I don't understand.

10 Q. You told us -- I can't remember the precise terms, but you told us

11 you don't actually know what happened at Stupni Do, do you?

12 A. No, I don't.

13 Q. Rajic never told you?

14 A. He did not, no. He never told me.

15 Q. None of the commanders of the Apostoli or the Maturice, or whoever

16 it was, they never told you?

17 A. I wasn't in contact with them anyway.

18 Q. You didn't hear any account, even in the form of rumour, from any

19 of the soldiers who were in Stupni Do doing what was being done?

20 A. No. Only what I could see in the media.

21 Q. I see. Or is it that you're hiding the truth from the Judges

22 because you know that it's unacceptable?

23 A. No. I'm not hiding anything. I am ready to tell you all that I

24 know, about this case, I mean.

25 Q. Do you have any personal written records to which you've referred

1 before coming here to give evidence?

2 A. The only document I have is the document showing that I was

3 authorised to command the brigade of the 24th, but I don't have it here,

4 yet I have it in my possession and I can give it to the Defence.

5 Q. What about brigade documents?

6 A. None.

7 Q. What happened to them?

8 A. The information I had was that on the 7th of November, 1993, the

9 brigade documents fell into the hands of the army of Bosnian Serbs, and

10 that after that they were returned but they were evidently in a very messy

11 state.

12 Q. To whom were they returned?

13 A. The Bobovac Brigade command, and I was no longer there.

14 Q. Who was in charge at that time?

15 A. Emil Harah.

16 Q. And the fact that documents may be messy doesn't mean they're

17 going to be destroyed. May we take it, then, that those documents of

18 record still exist?

19 A. I think they do.

20 Q. So that when you have referred to intelligence reports setting out

21 the anxieties you claim to have had about the BiH, when you tell us about

22 requests made for assistance from Rajic and so on, the records of all that

23 exist somewhere in writing, in all probability?

24 A. Well, yes, as likely as not, I guess.

25 Q. You didn't seek to look at those records yourself, did you?

1 A. I am not -- I'm no longer a member of those units, so I have no

2 right to ask for them, if it's now what you mean.

3 Q. And in the course of preparation to become a witness here by the

4 lawyers for the Defence, the suggestion was never made that you should go

5 and look for these documents with Emil Harah, to your knowledge? Not with

6 Emil Harah; wherever they are now.

7 A. No.

8 Q. And what we know is that from a well-organised brigade such as

9 yours, all these events will have been properly documented, won't they?

10 A. Yes, insofar as that was possible. Bearing in mind the

11 circumstances between the 31st of January until the 30th of April [as

12 interpreted], we could not do that, because we were unable to type

13 anything. The brigade was on the move all the time. And during the rest

14 of the time, yes, documents were written down, and they should be

15 somewhere stored.

16 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I apologise. There is a big

17 mistake in the transcript. It says the 31st January till 30th of April,

18 but the witness was referring 31st to the 4th, 31st to the 4th, so the

19 sense is completely different. Thirty-first October to the 4th of

20 November.

21 MR. NICE:

22 Q. What period of time were you referring to, please, Mr. Bozic?

23 A. I'm referring to the period until the 4th of November, 1993, and

24 that was the time until when I was with the Bobovac Brigade.

25 Q. We're going to look at documents that do exist found in other

1 places to see how well-documented things in fact were a little later, but

2 you accept, in principle, that at the time of Stupni Do, the brigade and

3 the HVO in Vares were making records?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Incidentally, you say that they were taken by the Serbs. Were the

6 documents actually handed over to the Serbs for safekeeping? Is that the

7 reality?

8 A. At the time when that happened, I was not with the brigade, and I

9 simply learned about that later, and the information was that they had

10 been seized by the Bosnian Serb army on the 7th of November, 1993.

11 Q. Not only will records exist, in all probability, at the Vares end,

12 but where you were making, as you tell us, dated requests, or where dated

13 requests were made to Kiseljak for reinforcements, records will exist at

14 the Kiseljak end as well; correct?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. Has there been any inquiry, of which you are aware,

17 any internal inquiry by the HVO into the affairs of Stupni Do?

18 A. All I know was that the inquiry was undertaken, but I do not know

19 that it was brought to an end. Because of the circumstances, there were

20 some changes, and I don't know what happened next. I know it was

21 undertaken by operative men in the OG Kiseljak, operative group, that is,

22 Kiseljak.

23 Q. There was, of course, no reason for the inquiry not to have a full

24 and complete result. The man Rajic was alive to give evidence, wasn't he?

25 A. Rajic was alive and kicking, but I, of course, I do not know what

1 course the investigation has taken, because I have nothing to do with it.

2 We're all alive, well, and kicking, except those who are not.

3 Q. And Rajic is now in Croatia, is he?

4 A. I don't know Rajic's whereabouts, but I don't think he's in

5 Croatia.

6 Q. When did you last see him?

7 A. The last time I saw Mr. Ivica Rajic was in 1994, in July.

8 Q. Two other things about Rajic. He gave you your job, didn't he, to

9 be in charge of the brigade?

10 A. Rajic sought advice about that, and there is a document showing

11 that he was given the instructions by Colonel Tihomir Blaskic. But since

12 it came through radio communication, he simply drew up that document based

13 on it.

14 Q. But he was a man known to you personally earlier, wasn't he, and a

15 man for whom you had some high regard?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You still have high regard for him?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You believe him to be a moral and courageous soldier, do you?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. And would it be right -- perhaps this could be the last question,

22 subject to the Court's view -- would it be right, as you may know

23 Pejcinovic has said in newspaper articles, would it be right that before

24 Stupni Do, you had been pressing the authorities in Vares to bring Rajic

25 in?

1 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I repeat my

2 objection from yesterday. We object against the use of articles, because

3 this is a triple hearsay, and we discussed it yesterday. That is my

4 objection.

5 JUDGE MAY: We ruled yesterday that the matter could be put by the

6 Prosecution. That ruling stands, so there's no need to challenge it

7 again.

8 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 JUDGE MAY: You better deal with the question.

10 MR. NICE: Perhaps if he could answer the question, that would, of

11 course, be convenient.

12 JUDGE MAY: Would you repeat it?

13 MR. NICE: Yes, certainly.

14 Q. Would it be right that before Stupni Do, you had been pressing the

15 authorities in Vares to bring Rajic in?

16 A. No.

17 MR. NICE: I'll come back to that after lunch.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll adjourn now. We'll sit again shortly

19 after half past 2.00.

20 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.04 p.m.

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1 --- On resuming at 2.32 p.m.

2 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, I don't want to go back to the photograph,

3 but it's my recollection of the evidence of Witness T that the photograph

4 was never identified.

5 MR. NICE: I think you're right that it wasn't formally identified

6 because, frankly, I didn't think it was necessary to identify it.

7 Photographs speak for themselves is one of the things I said at the time.

8 JUDGE MAY: You put it in as it was, but without identification,

9 because I don't have anything to that effect in my notes.

10 MR. NICE: Your Honour is quite correct on that, but it was on the

11 basis that it wasn't challenged, because it's obvious what it was, and I

12 think the Defence accepted it on that basis. And thus when we came to the

13 next witness, Zoran Maric, it was dealt with in the way it was dealt with

14 there.

15 JUDGE MAY: We won't waste any more time on it now.

16 Yes, Mr. Naumovski, did you want to play your film?

17 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, with your

18 indulgence, very quickly.

19 Mr. Bozic, we will just go back to the videotape which I had

20 announced, and if I ask the booth to play it for us, please.

21 [Videotape played]

22 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] Since last Thursday when the Muslims

23 captured Vares, the area has not been marked by any battles. 48 hours

24 ago, this represented the last Croatian stronghold. In Central Bosnia

25 another problem has arisen. Muslim soldiers are systematically pillaging

1 the town. The UN is attempting to intervene but this has proved to be a

2 difficult task. The Croats who have fled the devastation are refusing to

3 return home. Despite the cold, they are remaining in makeshift camps

4 outside of the town. All of them are afraid of reprisals. More burning

5 of the town and killing."

6 Further Examination by Mr. Naumovski:

7 Q. Thank you. Mr. Bozic, you saw this excerpt from a programme made

8 by the French television. Does this video really represent scenes from

9 Vares?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And these were the thousands of refugees which had fled from

12 Vares?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. You were among these people, you were there, your people who were

15 leaving?

16 A. Yes.

17 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Bozic. That was

18 all. Thank you, Your Honours. And also thanks to my learned colleague.

19 And can I also get the number for this exhibit.

20 THE REGISTRAR: The videotape is number D296/1 and the transcript

21 296A/1.

22 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice: [Continued]

24 Q. We ended with your views on Mr. Rajic. Would it surprise you to

25 know that you may sometimes be described as one of the more extreme

1 members of the HVO in Vares as, perhaps, may have been the case?

2 A. I saw some of these opinions expressed in the media, but I believe

3 that these people were partial when they were representing such things.

4 Q. Were you fierce in your belief that your territory should become

5 Croatian territory?

6 A. This is a territory inhabited by Croatian people for centuries,

7 and I believe that the Croatian people should remain in that territory.

8 Q. Did you, yourself, frankly always believe that there should be

9 linkage of your territory to the state of Croatia itself?

10 A. What kind of linkage are you referring to?

11 Q. Did you hope that the countries might -- well, your bit of the

12 territory might one day be joined to Croatia, become part of it, by

13 annexation or something like that. Did you hope for that?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Of course the people who were arrested on the night of Stupni Do

16 were those who had been getting on really rather well with the Muslims,

17 weren't they?

18 A. I wouldn't say so. I don't think so.

19 Q. Can you give us any other reason why they were arrested or

20 detained or whatever words you'd like to use?

21 A. As far as I know, Commander Rajic assessed that they were in

22 danger.

23 Q. In what conceivable danger were they, please?

24 A. Precisely because of the spread of rumours that they had good

25 relations with Muslims and so that they -- their lives would be in

1 jeopardy, at risk.

2 Q. Where were these rumours spreading?

3 A. These rumours were created during these operations so far as I

4 know. But I'm not sure that that was the real reason. As a subordinate,

5 I did not have to know the exact reasons.

6 Q. We'll come back to that later and let's now deal with things

7 chronologically, starting with a new exhibit, 128.1. This is a document

8 of yours. You can have the original, and we'll put the English on the

9 ELMO. This is a document prepared by you and it's a proposal. And we can

10 see what your attitude was on the 10th of June -- on the 10th of June of

11 1992.

12 It's a programme of propaganda, information, and promotional

13 activities. "Quality propaganda and promotional activities, with the aim

14 to bring closer the goal, purpose, and ways of achieving the goal." And

15 then we'll come to the detail. I needn't read more of the introduction.

16 "Propaganda activities," this is what you proposed, "to create an

17 appropriate and unique poster." Then I come to B, the poster was for

18 Vares and Herceg-Bosna. I come to B, "To make the following propaganda

19 leaflets, a leaflet calling on all citizens," and I'm going to summarise

20 it, "to take part in the HVO. A leaflet describing the centuries old bomb

21 between our territories and Croatia. A leaflet on the cultural history of

22 the Croat people in Vares and a leaflet containing the main goals of the

23 fight and politics."

24 And then C, "To make a selection of appropriate Croatian and

25 Bosnian songs and to play them; D, to obtain additional propaganda

1 material from other Herceg-Bosna municipalities so that our town could see

2 that the movement is a mass and powerful one; E, to obtain propaganda

3 material from Croatia in order to bring even closer to our people the

4 strength and the beauty of our beautiful Croatia."

5 And then under information activities: "Obtaining weekly

6 magazines; B, to launch and publish a weekly paper, a bulletin; C, to

7 inform the public about HVO activities; D, to start preparations for the

8 Vares radio station, with propaganda content; and E, to inform the

9 population of HVO activities."

10 And then under 3, "Every success in the work of the HVO, as well

11 as every important date in the recent history of the Croatian people,

12 should be marked by promotional programmes."

13 And then this: "In addition to all the above, additional effort

14 should be made in order to bring the sight and sounds from our town closer

15 to a wide public by means of radio and television. The media of Croatian

16 should be supplied. And then, since this is a large task, more

17 personnel."

18 When you referred, and I've summarised all of it, to the desire to

19 bring Croatia even closer to your people, and when you described the

20 centuries-old bond between your territory and Croatia, were you showing a

21 desire to be part of Croatia itself?

22 A. No.

23 Q. What, then, were you seeking to achieve by that?

24 A. I tried to achieve that the cultural and political identity be

25 treated on equal terms with the respective identities of two other ethnic

1 groups.

2 Q. Unless I've missed it in this document of propaganda, there's no

3 particular reference there to Bosnian Muslims, is there?

4 A. Bosnian songs are being mentioned, and Bosnian songs are being

5 sung by Bosnian Muslims.

6 Q. Are you sure you had Bosnian Muslim songs there as opposed to

7 Bosnian Croat songs?

8 A. The traditional songs would alternate when they were broadcast

9 over the PA systems. That would be all the Bosnian songs and Croat

10 songs. For instance, one of them is, "My Bosnia, Wonderful and

11 Beautiful." I cannot even distinguish among the songs from that period,

12 which ones were created by Muslims and which were by Croats.

13 MR. NICE: We'll move on to Exhibit 115.2, please -- 1155.2. I'm

14 so sorry.

15 Q. Mr. Bozic, where your words are recorded by international

16 observers, unless it's very unimportant and trivial, I'll give you a

17 chance to comment on them so that we can know whether they're correctly

18 recorded or not. And what's coming your way is an English language

19 document. Do you speak English or not?

20 A. Very little.

21 Q. In which case I'll read -- it will go on the ELMO, the overhead

22 projector, and I'll read the passage slowly ask you to listen to the

23 translation.

24 This is a report of the 8th of August of 1993 from a man called

25 (redacted)of the monitors, the European monitors, and under paragraph 2 he

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1 says this of you: that he met you, you being at that time a staff officer

2 in the Bobovac Brigade, and during an open and frank discussion, you

3 stated that although Vares was quiet at the moment, conflict there was

4 inevitable. You stated that both the BiH and the Serbs wanted to control

5 the road to Tuzla as well as the industrial sites in the town. And when

6 asked which side the HVO would join if fighting broke out, you replied:

7 "They would fight against whichever side attacked them first." And you

8 stated that the degree of cooperation between the Croats and Serbs was

9 limited to humanitarian aid, and no agreement existed concerning military

10 activities. You reported the amount of aid coming through Serb lines was

11 a useful supplement to other sources but was not enough to relieve all

12 shortages.

13 Now, has the monitor correctly recorded what you would have been

14 telling him at the beginning of August of 1993?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Did you in fact have better prospects of negotiating agreements

17 and arrangements with the Serbs than you set out there?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Can we then come to the September meeting. It will, of course, be

20 for the Chamber in due course to decide about evidence given by you and

21 others and by the Witness AO. But can you tell me this much, please,

22 about that person: 1, where he says that a meeting happened in September

23 of 1993 in the hotel, Ponikve Hotel, he's correct, isn't he?

24 A. The meeting was held at the Hotel Ponikve, and that I stated

25 already.

1 Q. Thank you. Why -- just tell us. You better be given a chance to

2 do this. Why should that man decide to make up all this material that you

3 say he's made up? And remember, if anything you're going to say is going

4 to identify the man, let us know and we'll ask the Judges to go into

5 private session. Why should he make all this up, please, Mr. Bozic?

6 A. I don't know the reason, unless there was some personal gain that

7 he had in mind.

8 Q. You can certainly think of -- I needn't pursue that. When he

9 tells us that at that meeting Pejcinovic, Duznovic, Gavran, you, and Harah

10 were present, is he correct?

11 A. Ivica Gavran was definitely not there.

12 Q. Are the other names correct?

13 A. But not only those. There were some others present at the meeting

14 to which I referred. But this was not difficult to guess, because we were

15 present at all substantial meetings. Everybody knew this.

16 Q. When he says that you were receiving orders or instructions from

17 Grude, he is again accurate, because on your own account, Pejcinovic said

18 that he had information that had come from Grude.

19 A. Yes, but that didn't mean that we were receiving orders. It was

20 just informations that were coming to us.

21 Q. Were there in fact documents there contrary to what you've told

22 us?

23 A. No.

24 Q. You can actually remember, can you, all these years later, no

25 documents?

1 A. I certainly would have remembered any documents, so I know that

2 there were no documents, because that would not have been difficult to

3 remember.

4 Q. When were you first asked to cast your mind back to think of these

5 events, please, Mr. Bozic?

6 A. In April of this year.

7 Q. This meeting, the meeting in September of 1993, would have been

8 the subject of a minute or a note or some other kind of record; correct?

9 A. I think not.

10 Q. Why not? It's an important meeting with quite a large number of

11 people attending. Why would there be no note of it, or minute?

12 A. I don't know about that, because I was not in charge of it.

13 Q. We'll move on from there. We come to the meetings that AO say

14 happened on the 19th and 20th. You say he wasn't there. You say there

15 were meetings on the 20th and 21st. May you be wrong about the dates?

16 A. There was no meeting held on the 20th. Only Pejcinovic and

17 Duznovic arrived at the headquarters with two other men, asking for

18 information which I refused to give. But on the 21st, there definitely

19 was a meeting because of the sequence of events involving all the persons

20 who were involved the day before.

21 Q. How do you remember these dates without documents to support your

22 account? What have you been able to refer to, if anything?

23 A. I relied on my memory and on the recollection of some of my

24 friends who also remember the tragic events for Croatian people.

25 Q. You mean you've discussed this before coming to this Court and

1 you're giving the Judges a collective view as to the dates, built on what

2 you've discussed with your friends; is that right?

3 A. I am absolutely certain of the accuracy of these dates, and I say

4 that they could not have happened on any other dates.

5 Q. We'll come to that in a minute, but we'll just ask you, please:

6 Who were the friends with whom you've discussed this evidence before you

7 came here?

8 A. These were persons whom I have known over my entire life, with

9 whom I can talk on the telephone.

10 Q. Which ones?

11 A. Do you want the names?

12 Q. Yes, please.

13 A. For instance, the woman with whom I currently live and who is the

14 widow of one of the defenders of Vares. Her husband was killed during the

15 combat operations in that period. I think that this is enough. I would

16 not like to involve other people in this.

17 Q. Very well. I'm not going to press you, of course. But just

18 answer this: Were any of the people to whom you spoke people who attended

19 either of these meetings?

20 A. I have no communication with the participants of these meetings

21 anymore. I have not been in contact with any of them in the last three

22 years.

23 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, he says that there was no meeting on

24 the 20th. There was, however, he said, a meeting on the 21st.

25 MR. NICE: Yes.

1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Was Witness AO at that meeting on the 21st?

2 A. No.

3 MR. NICE:

4 Q. Can you explain to us, before we come back to the detail of these

5 meetings, how it was that this very first meeting you say on the 20th,

6 unless I've misunderstood it, did not have the involvement of Pejcinovic,

7 Duznovic, Gavran or were they present?

8 A. Can you please repeat the question?

9 Q. Were Pejcinovic, Duznovic, and Gavran present at the first

10 meeting?

11 A. What date?

12 Q. That's the 20th of October meeting, as you say it is.

13 A. On the 20th of October, there was no meeting. Pejcinovic and

14 Duznovic just visited the headquarters and asked to see those documents.

15 Q. All right. So I better follow this. They asked to see the

16 documents, and then what happened?

17 A. Because the commander was not at the headquarters, I was not

18 authorised to show documents to anyone without his -- in his absence I was

19 not supposed to show it to anyone, even to the president of the

20 municipality, so I did not show them to anybody.

21 Q. And then what do you say these people did?

22 A. They sent Miroslav Franjkic, the chief of staff, to go to Kiseljak

23 and inform Mr. Rajic on the situation and ask for assistance.

24 Q. And whose idea was this?

25 A. Of Anto Pejcinovic and Zvonko Duznovic.

1 Q. Anybody else's idea?

2 A. No.

3 Q. What part, if any, did Harah play in all of this?

4 A. Emil Harah was not present. He played no role in all of this.

5 When he came back around 2230 hours, I reported to him, and this is how he

6 learned about the events.

7 Q. Maybe it's my mistake, I don't understand it. Why, in any event,

8 were you going to Rajic at that stage for help?

9 A. Because we had lost a part of the territory and we had orders to

10 recover it, and we simply were not up to that task.

11 Q. Without discussing it with Harah, how did you know you weren't up

12 to it? Harah had what, 300 or 400 men? How did these civilians manage to

13 take the initiative to send for Rajic?

14 A. Civilians, when they asked Rajic for help, did not quote this as a

15 reason. They asked for assistance in the defence of Vares in general

16 because Zvonko Duzkovic was also the head of security, and he must have

17 had some information that was also not accessible to me because the

18 security service has it's own chain of command through which the

19 information travels.

20 Q. You probably have been told that Witness AO says that, in fact,

21 Rajic arrived uninvited and unannounced with a small group of soldiers on

22 the 19th. Did that happen?

23 A. No.

24 Q. His evidence is that on that day there was a meeting where

25 Kordic's name was mentioned and the purpose at that stage was to get the

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1 Croats out of Vares. Isn't that the truth?

2 A. No, no.

3 Q. Well, then, we move on from whatever day the -- well, we move on

4 to what you say is the 20th of October meeting. And your account of the

5 people present at this meeting was who? Who do you say was present at the

6 meeting on the 20th of October -- sorry, 21st. Who do you say was present

7 on the 21st?

8 A. I have already said and it must be on record, but I can repeat

9 that. Members of the brigade command: Anto Pejcinovic, Ivica Rajic,

10 Boro Malbasic, and commanders of subordinate military units and other

11 units, perhaps not all of them, but an overwhelming majority of them.

12 Q. The units that you're referring to, were those your units or were

13 those units of Rajic's?

14 A. What units do you mean?

15 Q. Well, you say "members of the brigade command" and then you say

16 "commanders of subordinate military units and other units." Who were

17 those military units and other units whose commanders were present?

18 A. Bobovac Brigade, these are the subordinate units. The brigade

19 command issues orders to subordinate units, so at this meeting, there were

20 also the commanders of subordinate units present.

21 Q. Rajic, was he there alone or with anybody else from Kiseljak?

22 A. At that meeting, Rajic was alone but Boro Malbasic was with him

23 because he had just been posted to OG-2.

24 Q. How did Rajic travel from Kiseljak, entirely on his own or by

25 helicopter or how?

1 A. By himself. I mean not all alone, with his soldiers.

2 Q. Yes.

3 A. And I don't know the routes.

4 Q. He'd come with all his soldiers on this occasion, had he?

5 A. No, he arrived with 170 or 180 men and in the area of

6 responsibility, he had many more men. And if you wish, we also were his

7 soldiers because he was our superior.

8 Q. So he came by land with somewhere between 100 and 200 soldiers.

9 What groups were they members of: The Maturice, the Apostoli?

10 A. At that time, I was not familiar with the structure of those units

11 in the operative group so that I cannot really say what these units were

12 called. Perhaps a month or so later, I learnt that there were such units

13 in Kiseljak called Maturice or Apostoli, as you mentioned.

14 Q. Then if the brigade leaders of the Bobovac Brigade attended, it

15 would have made sense, wouldn't it, for the brigade or the group leaders

16 of these other groups, the Apostoli, for example, to be present. Were the

17 leaders of the Apostoli present or not, or don't you now remember?

18 A. They were not present, I'm sure of it. It was a matter of

19 judgement of the commander, of Ivica Rajic's.

20 Q. How long did the meeting last?

21 A. Between an hour and a half to two hours.

22 Q. Are you saying that at no time did anyone leave the meeting? Is

23 that really what you're saying?

24 A. Yes. Yes. I say that nobody left, only two members of our

25 brigade were late at the meeting and those were Mario Andric and Tvrtko

1 Jelic and nobody left the conference room throughout the meeting.

2 Q. I don't want to be mundane, but nobody left even to go to the

3 lavatory in that one and a half to two hours; is that the picture you want

4 us to have?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Rajic chaired the meeting.

7 A. The meeting was chaired by the brigade commander as a host and

8 Rajic sat next to him, as guests always do, and participated in the

9 proceedings. He was mostly receiving information.

10 Q. Rajic had been brought in because he was a powerful and much

11 feared man and he had been brought in to take over, hadn't he?

12 A. Ivica Rajic, our immediate superior officer, and it was as such

13 that he was in Vares.

14 Q. Now, just putting things in sequence. From this meeting, which is

15 the meeting you say was on the 21st, and Witness AO gives it at a

16 different date, before I pass on from that, can you give any account of

17 how Witness AO could know anything about a meeting such as this involving

18 Rajic and military leaders and so on? Can you give any idea of how he

19 would have learnt of that?

20 A. I don't. I haven't and I don't know how he could have learned

21 about that meeting unless he had been prepared about it at a later stage,

22 because that meeting belonged in the category of military secrets and

23 nobody outside the meeting knew about it.

24 Q. And again, before I leave that meeting, there's one other question

25 I want to ask you. Do you accept, in general, that Rajic arrived with a

1 plan or at the time of his arrival, there was a plan, and in the course of

2 those opening days or day or days of his visit, the plan changed. Do you

3 accept that, first of all, in general?

4 A. But I know and, of course, I can draw any conclusion from the

5 course of the meeting and subsequent events. There was no plan. It was

6 always to collect information and analyse the situation. And in this

7 case, I can do nothing else but express my profound conviction.

8 Q. What would you say to the suggestion which was made by AO that the

9 first plan was to seize or to recover or recapture the village of

10 Dragovici and that area, and that there was then a change of plan from

11 Dragovici to Stupni Do. What do you say to that as a change of plan?

12 A. You said to recapture Dragovici, but Dragovici was never

13 captured. It is the village Kopljari, and the order that we received was

14 to recover that territory, the area of the village of Kopljari. But I

15 cannot accept that there was any plan, very specific one, simply by

16 looking at the nature of things. Because we were ordered to recover the

17 territory, and we said we simply could not do that. So I mean that would

18 be in the nature of things. Of course I do not know what any of the

19 superiors knows, plans or intends to do. I learn about that only when I'm

20 told about that. Under military rules, I'm not entitled to that knowledge

21 unless it is transmitted to me.

22 Q. You will appreciate that Mr. Vidovic, who you will have seen, no

23 doubt, gave evidence before you did.

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And it's for the Chamber to decide the overall effect of his

1 evidence, but if he gave evidence of a change of plan occurring when Rajic

2 was there, would that help you at all? Was there, in fact, a change of

3 plan from the area described by Dragovici over in that direction to the

4 west, a change of plan to Stupni Do to the south-east?

5 A. Mr. Pavao Vidovic is not a military man and as such, he must have

6 misunderstood you. Because you insist -- you are trying to get the same

7 kind of statement from me, but because he was not a military man, he

8 perhaps accepted this version that there was such a plan. But I did not

9 know such a plan, and there wasn't such a plan.

10 Q. Now, when we come to the Stupni Do incident itself, where were

11 you, do you say by then, on the 23rd?

12 A. At what time? Please could you specify?

13 Q. Where were you all day?

14 A. What day?

15 Q. The 23rd.

16 A. 23rd, in the morning around 7.00 or perhaps a little earlier,

17 Commander Emil Harah woke me up, told me that our forces had been attacked

18 at Mir, that they had asked for reinforcements. That he had spoken to

19 Mr. Zvonko Duznovic and that Zvonko Duznovic told him that he had been in

20 the village of Stupni Do and had not reached an agreement. That he had

21 allegedly pulled out a family in which the wife was a Croat, and that the

22 civilian population from Stupni Do was retreating towards Dabravine and

23 Budozelje. That is what I heard. And after that, I requested to go and

24 fetch my children in view of what might happen, and I was allowed to do

25 that.

1 Q. What means of communication existed at that particular time, the

2 23rd of October, between Vares and the outside HVO world and in particular

3 with Kiseljak?

4 A. Radio only protected link.

5 Q. Were there any means of communicating documents, fax, or anything

6 of that sort?

7 A. No. Vares telephone lines were cut off. Only the lines within

8 the town itself worked. As far as I know, one could not either call or

9 fax anyone outside the down.

10 Q. Vinko Lukic was your liaison officer, was he?

11 A. Not mine.

12 Q. Was he the Kiseljak liaison officer?

13 A. No, in our unit, in Bobovac Brigade, there was nobody called Vinko

14 Lukic.

15 Q. Was there a liaison officer for the Kiseljak headquarters of the

16 HVO?

17 A. Our signals platoon with its commander maintained all the

18 communication and all the signals, and they were responsible. There

19 wasn't an individual responsible for another individual. It was organised

20 like any signals system in any military structure.

21 Q. And, of course, there had to be a way to communicate with Rajic to

22 get him to come to Vares at all, didn't there?

23 A. I've just told you: There would be the radio link, the packet

24 communication, the protected one.

25 Q. When were you aware of those three men -- Pejcinovic, Duznovic,

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1 and Gavran -- being put into protective custody?

2 A. In the evening of the 23rd, around 8.00.

3 Q. On whose instructions?

4 A. I do not know that anybody issued any instructions. That was the

5 decision of the commander, Rajic. And I think he informed us that they

6 were in a form of isolation, security, that they could not go. So I guess

7 that is how it was done.

8 MR. NICE: I wonder if the witness could now see a newly formed

9 exhibit. It's going to be 1258.3. Two of the exhibits have been produced

10 before, but it's necessary, I think, to have them in the new format,

11 because it makes more sense of documents that were previously -- one was

12 1258 and the other was 1261 -- were produced without originals, and it's

13 necessary to understand their original form -- why they're in this form.

14 Perhaps the registrar could pull out 1261 for us.

15 Q. And if we look at this document -- I'm afraid it's in English

16 again, Mr. Bozic, so I'd just simply ask the usher to lay it on the ELMO

17 so that we can see what we have.

18 On the second sheet, if you'd be good enough just to show the

19 second sheet first, we have a document from Sarajevo command dated the 2nd

20 of November, so it's a little later, and going to a colonel in The Hague

21 here in the Netherlands. There's a message at the bottom which, if we

22 come back to the first page, the message that we see there in Dutch, if

23 you turn back to the first page, is draft translated as follows:

24 "After a long search," and this is, you understand, Mr. Bozic, a

25 Dutch military person writing in November of 1994, "After a long search I

1 have found with G5 a translation of one of the letters, together with a

2 letter of introduction you requested. Unfortunately, the other letter can

3 no longer be traced despite my numerous attempts to locate it. I hope

4 nonetheless that the letters can be of some use."

5 The attached document is a letter dated the 24th of October, which

6 we can see, and this document comes from somebody called Vinko Lukic,

7 described as the liaison officer for the UN. From Kiseljak, dated the

8 24th of October, and it says this:

9 "Regarding your request for assistance in connection with the

10 investigation of alleged massacre over Muslim population in Vares

11 municipality, I inform it was true that a large conflict occurred in and

12 around Vares that HVO Vares units and Muslim army units from another area

13 were involved in. In accordance with the information I have, in more than

14 five Croatian villages in the Vares municipality, ethnic cleansing of

15 non-Muslim population took place. Also, I was aware that HVO consolidated

16 its units and it decisively stands on the defence line of Croatian people

17 in Croatian land in Vares municipality. I do not have any checked

18 information about any attacking activities of HVO Vares, so I doubt about

19 the information from Muslim side concerning the massacre in Stupni Do

20 village."

21 So pausing there, he has set out, on the 24th of October, as it

22 were, the Croat view of things. Do you follow me, Mr. Bozic?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. The last paragraph of his letter says this:

25 "In the annex, I deliver you an order issued by General Petkovic

1 regarding the situation in Vares municipality. General Petkovic is

2 personally interested in the performance of the investigation of ethnic

3 cleansing of the villages in Vares municipality. You have our full

4 support."

5 Now, what then follows, on the next page, is what was our Exhibit

6 1258. And as the Dutch translation reveals, this is a copy that was found

7 in records rather than the original, but it's produced by the original

8 English language, as we can see from Vinko Lukic. And so this copy

9 document, assuming it's an accurate copy, dated the 23rd of October, comes

10 from Milivoj Petkovic, goes to the commander in Vares, and says:

11 "To control the situation in Vares, you have the authorisations to

12 remove the following people from their present functions," and then it

13 lists Pejcinovic, Duznovic, and Gavran. It then says: "Investigate the

14 responsibility for the situation in Croatian and Muslim villages where, in

15 accordance with our incomplete findings, ethnic cleansing of the

16 population occurred."

17 Now, I've taken some time to explain how that document comes to be

18 produced, but assuming the Dutch records are correct -- the Kiseljak

19 liaison officer produced it to them -- can you tell us, please, why it was

20 that Petkovic was removing Pejcinovic, Duznovic, and Gavran from their

21 functions?

22 A. I wouldn't know that.

23 Q. Surely --

24 MR. SAYERS: Mr. President, may I just raise one issue regarding

25 this document. The translation attached to the front of it refers to a

1 letter of introduction and a translation of one of the letters, but I

2 don't see a letter of introduction on here. I wonder if the Prosecution

3 could throw a little light on that.

4 MR. NICE: Our understanding is that by "letter of introduction,"

5 translated literally, the reference is to the first letter from Lukic,

6 which introduces the letter to which it is attached. And it is a draft

7 translation, and I observe the -- well, I better not say that. But in any

8 case, that's our clear understanding, that what's meant there by "letter

9 of introduction" is that the one document introduces and, as it were,

10 produces the letter that we're now looking at.

11 MR. SAYERS: If I might just add one point, Your Honour. The

12 translation goes on to say that the other letter can no longer be traced,

13 despite numerous attempts to locate it, but he hopes that the attached

14 letters can be of some use. It's very unclear, unfortunately.

15 JUDGE MAY: I think that's all the information we've got about

16 it. Yes.

17 MR. NICE:

18 Q. Mr. Bozic, can you help us, please, then, why a military leader

19 should be dismissing or releasing from their functions civilian people to

20 whom you were really quite close?

21 A. I do not know anything about this, and I do not have an

22 explanation. I do not have even any opinion on it.

23 Q. But certainly it fits, doesn't it, with everything that you saw,

24 because these people were actually taken into protective custody and

25 thereby taken out of circulation on this very day, the 23rd of October?

1 A. I cannot comment on this document. That is what it's about. If

2 it is an original, authentic document, if it does have its legal force,

3 then yes, it would fit in. But I do not know why, for what reason it was

4 done as it was done. I'm speaking about what I know, and I do not know

5 this. This is a new thing to me.

6 Q. And if we look at Exhibit 1261, which is the other letter, I

7 think, to which the introductory letter relates, this is a letter that

8 comes the following day, and you may be able to comment on, because by the

9 following day, on your account, you had become commander of the Bobovac

10 Brigade; correct?

11 A. I don't know what your question is.

12 Q. On the 24th of October you had become commander of the Bobovac

13 Brigade.

14 A. I received the authority to command. I was authorised to command

15 the brigade.

16 Q. Thank you. And this document -- and again I'm sorry that it's

17 only an English copy -- dated 11.15 at night on the 24th of October, to

18 the commander of the Bobovac Brigade, from Petkovic, says that you should

19 cease all combat activities against UNPROFOR members immediately; that you

20 should ensure unhindered passage for vehicles and soldiers, as well as

21 their return to base; you should cooperate to a maximum degree in the

22 realisation of the UNPROFOR mission; and that that order should take

23 immediate effect. Do you remember receiving that order?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So we may take it, therefore, that that is an accurate copy of the

1 original document. How did you receive it? By packet communication?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Thank you. The rest is argument. Very well. Well, let's just go

4 back a little bit.

5 Do you remember a man called Birger? I think he was Swedish

6 army. Do you remember a man called Birger?

7 A. Major Birger, yes, I remember him.

8 Q. Did you, in fact, see Major Birger on the morning of the 23rd of

9 October?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. Did you complain to him that in some way UNPROFOR had

12 let you down over Kopljari?

13 A. Personally, no.

14 Q. That was a matter of concern and complaint that Kopljari had been

15 taken, wasn't it?

16 A. If somebody complained to the UN, that was their concern. Before

17 my conversation with Major Birger, I did not know about these complaints.

18 And in retrospect, I do not know what the UN could have done with regard

19 to Kopljari.

20 Q. Now, on that same morning, the 23rd of October, you spoke to

21 Birger and told him that your people were starting to attack Stupni Do.

22 Do you remember?

23 A. Something like that, yes, you could say so.

24 Q. Because what? What were you trying to describe to him on the

25 23rd?

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1 A. I tried to explain what I have told you a moment ago, that our

2 forces were attacked at Mir, that assistance was requested, that the

3 assistance was sent, that certain forces were then inserted at Stupni Do,

4 and this is what I was trying to tell you. The problem was there was no

5 time; we were there very briefly. And there was an interpreter who was

6 interpreting into Slovenian from English, so it was very difficult for the

7 Major and myself to follow each other.

8 Q. So on the 23rd you knew enough about Stupni Do to tell the Major

9 that there had been an attack? Right away you knew enough about it?

10 A. I met with Major Birger after I had taken care of my children and

11 had returned and saw that the combat operations had started.

12 Q. Or is the reality, Mr. Bozic, that you knew perfectly well the

13 nature and scale of the attack right from the word go and you were

14 involved with it?

15 A. That is not true.

16 Q. Well, then let's look, please, if we may, at a document for the

17 25th of October, which is Exhibit 1263.3. On your account -- correct me

18 if I'm wrong -- you had no reason not to cooperate with the international

19 observers of one kind or another, did you?

20 A. Personally, no.

21 Q. You had every reason to enable people to discover the truth of

22 what had gone on?

23 A. At that time I could not do that, because in the zone of

24 responsibility the superior commander was not present, and in his absence

25 this was not possible.

1 Q. And that would be the only reason, would it?

2 A. I cannot do anything that violates the rules without -- I cannot

3 undertake anything without the knowledge of my superior officer in the

4 field.

5 Q. Even if the international observers believe serious human rights

6 violations have occurred and that they want to get on to the ground to

7 discover what the truth is, even then you've got to wait for your

8 superior, have you?

9 A. Yes.

10 MR. NICE: Let's look at what happened on the 25th of October. If

11 we could lay the English version -- there is only the English version --

12 on the ELMO.

13 Q. And this is a monitor's report, and it says this of you:

14 "The team, V4, V3, failed to visit Stupni Do, since the new HVO

15 commander from 2nd Brigade, 2nd Operational Group, Kresimir Bozic, who was

16 appointed yesterday, denied access, pretending that in the area fighting

17 is still going on and security could not be guaranteed. He told us that

18 UNMOS had the chance to go into the village early this afternoon. After

19 some discussion, he finally agreed with one single EC team to be allowed

20 to visit Stupni Do, not earlier than 1400 tomorrow."

21 Pausing there, no reference in either your refusal to allow them

22 in on the 25th or your permission to allow them in the following day, no

23 reference to your superior's permission, is there? You were making the

24 decisions yourself, weren't you?

25 A. No, I had previous guidance for such a situation.

1 Q. Oh, I see.

2 A. From my superior.

3 Q. He told you to tell these lies, had he?

4 A. Who told me to say these lies? I don't understand.

5 Q. What you're saying here, if the monitors have got it right, is

6 that they couldn't go in because there was continuous fighting but that

7 this wasn't true.

8 A. It was in the combat zone. The combat was not that intense, but

9 they were ongoing.

10 Q. Let's read on what the monitors recorded. "We committed." I

11 imagine that means they said they'd go the following day, but I'm not

12 sure. When questioned about the fate of Vares town Muslim people, you,

13 Mr. Bozic, indicated, no willingness to confirm the numbers and you also

14 denied access to the elementary school where the Muslim people are

15 suspected to be locked up.

16 Why did you deny them access to the place where the Muslims were

17 being locked up?

18 A. The same reason as before.

19 Q. And the report goes on to say, "We achieved to see the local

20 representative of the Red Cross who was under pressure not to say

21 anything. However, he confirmed that only male Muslim citizens of Vares

22 were incarcerated in the elementary school and some were beaten when taken

23 to this place."

24 Just dealing with this shortly, it's right, isn't it, that the

25 Muslims in that school were and elsewhere were badly treated including

1 being beaten?

2 A. At that time, I did not know details. Several days later, I

3 learned some of the details.

4 Q. It's right, isn't it, that they were used for forced labour in

5 dangerous circumstances; correct?

6 A. I don't know that.

7 Q. Well, just think about it. Did you ever instruct anyone to be

8 used for forced labour, taken from that school as a prisoner? Did you?

9 A. Personally, I did not.

10 Q. If we stay with this document just for a few seconds or minutes

11 more and turn over the page, we can see that this comment was made by the

12 officers, the international observers at the time. They said this under

13 paragraph 7, "It was interesting to meet Rajic from Kiseljak. The new HVO

14 Vares commander, Kresimir Bozic, in command since two days seems to listen

15 to Rajic." He's right in that, isn't he? You would obey Rajic in

16 everything?

17 A. He was my commander.

18 Q. They made this suggestion. "This can be the link with the

19 information we already had about extremists from the HVO from Kakanj and

20 Kiseljak in the area of Vares who seem to cause the problems. The whole

21 HVO military ..." I can't expand here at the moment, "... in Vares seems

22 to be changed. For about the commander we are sure, the rest isn't yet

23 confirmed." And then it said that, "The change of the HVO in Vares seems

24 not to be well accepted by the Vares population. This being reported by

25 Muslims who had escaped."

1 True, isn't it, the entire top command of the HVO in Vares had

2 changed with the arrival of Rajic, and you were on Rajic's side?

3 A. No. In the brigade command, only the commander was replaced and

4 the authorisation was issued, and Zvonko Duznovic was replaced and all the

5 rest remained.

6 Q. I said that I would give you an opportunity to look at one or two

7 other documents to show how well-documented things were at the time and

8 also for other purposes. And with that in mind, very briefly, 1263.4.

9 The following day, I beg your pardon, the same day. If we can

10 have the original, thank you very much. This comes over Rajic's signature

11 on the 25th, but from the Bobovac Brigade, we can see the serial number at

12 the top is 01-704-20/93. So there is a long series of correspondence, and

13 this particular topic was to complain about something, namely to complain

14 to the Nordic Battalion, that their crew was apparently giving light

15 signals during the night-time hours and requesting them to stop it.

16 You, in the Bobovac Brigade, thought that the Nordic Battalion was

17 helping the enemy, hadn't you, and you complained about it and then you'd

18 then recorded what you had set down in writing?

19 A. As far as I can see, this document was signed by commander Ivica

20 Rajic, and I know that these signals were used and I believe that that was

21 a way of communication between UN units. I'm not sure. It's just my

22 personal view.

23 Q. If we look at another similar document, 1266.2, the following day,

24 just to paint the picture, this one's from you. Very quickly, this is a

25 letter signed by you on the 26th of October to the major, the Nordic

1 major, a sharp protest about behaviour in particular villages endangering

2 security by light signals. And demanding that they stop what they were

3 doing; correct?

4 A. This was not just giving light signals, but there was information

5 that in the areas of these villages, members of our units were controlled

6 by the UN and that they were being harassed plus they were giving light

7 signals. This is what all the soldiers thought, and this is why I

8 intervened. You will probably ask me about the last sentence. It was

9 only meant to provide certain weight so that it be taken seriously.

10 Q. I will ask about the last sentence in relation to document 1266.3

11 coming your way, and I'm going to ask you this question first: Was this

12 complaining about NordBat apparently helping the enemy, a diversionary

13 tactic, to any degree? Again, because you had known perfectly well what

14 had happened at Stupni Do and wanted to keep the eyes of the world off

15 it.

16 A. No.

17 Q. Indeed, if we look at this document which is a military document

18 of the 26th of October passing from Kiseljak to various battalions

19 including British, Canadian, and Norwegian, and under paragraph 2, the

20 military communication records this: "More information is now available

21 from NordBat which eventually gained access to the village of Stupni Do

22 despite strong protests and difficulties from the local HVO brigade, known

23 as the Bobovac Brigade, commanded by Kresimir Bozic."

24 It then sets out the damage and death that was involved, and I

25 needn't go into this. It says, "UNPROFOR soldiers have been repeatedly

1 threatened and Bozic has warned UNPROFOR that if NordBat 2 does not

2 withdraw, he will ask the command to allow him to act unilaterally [sic]."

3 It goes on to say the whereabouts of many of the villagers is unknown and

4 so on.

5 Why were you so concerned to have NordBat withdraw, please,

6 Mr. Bozic? Sorry, did I say "unilaterally"? I should have said;

7 "militarily." Thank you very much.

8 Why were you so keen to have NordBat withdraw, please?

9 A. Because those positions were of strategic importance in the event

10 of an attack by ABiH, and should such attacks materialise, we would not

11 have had proper defence of it.

12 Q. I'm going to break into the chronology of events. I haven't many

13 more documents chronologically to deal with. And, Your Honour, although

14 I, for other reasons, think we will need to be into tomorrow morning, it

15 won't be by very much.

16 But can I just break into the chronological charting of events to

17 deal with this: You've spoken about the strategic or tactical value to

18 the ABiH of the village of Stupni Do, haven't you?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. You've effectively said that the main road leading up to Vares was

21 in sight of the hillside on which part, in any event, of Stupni Do is

22 located.

23 A. Not Stupni Do, but Bogos which was a dominant feature from which

24 you could control the road. But from the village, one with control the

25 main road between the village of Mir and the positions of the Bobovac

1 Brigade.

2 Q. And I think there was a question by Mr. Naumovski about the road

3 being within access of ordinary infantry weaponry and I think you said yes

4 to that; correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Now, can you just help me, please, and if I've missed it, of

7 course I'll be grateful for your correction, but is there any documented

8 history of complaint to anyone about that site actually being used to

9 control that road?

10 A. I don't know that.

11 Q. Sorry. You took over this brigade. You were the mapping officer,

12 the logistics officer, in the time of the preparation for the attack on

13 the 23rd, weren't you?

14 A. We made no preparations for the attack.

15 Q. In the time leading up to the attack, you were the logistics

16 officer. One of your duties was, indeed, mapping.

17 A. I was never a logistics officer. I was the head of the operations

18 and training affairs.

19 Q. I may have to come back to that, I hope not. Please tell us, tell

20 the Judges, are you saying there was an incident at that particular

21 location ever being used in an attempt to control the road or not? If so,

22 did you ever complain about it to ECMM, to NordBat, or to anyone else?

23 A. Until then, there were no incidents, but there were the -- there

24 were tactical predispositions for it.

25 Q. Sorry, what does "tactical predisposition" mean? Is that a

1 hypothetical possibility; is that what you're saying?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Are we going to find -- you referred, at the beginning of your

4 evidence, to a intelligence report. Are we going to find any intelligence

5 report anywhere that says that this was actually what was going on in

6 Stupni Do?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Where, please?

9 A. The documents which were drafted in the Bobovac Brigade are kept

10 in the Bobovac Brigade archive. Others which were prepared at higher

11 levels are in those respective archives. The assessment was that these --

12 in case of a potential attack, these dominant features would be taken in

13 order to better prepare, and it was clear that those features were

14 prepared in terms of engineering and we saw that.

15 Q. Well, again, the Judges may have to decide. On that issue, I

16 think the evidence has been, from the international observers, that either

17 little or no preparations were made and the position is you're still

18 talking about what you describe as tactical predispositions and which I

19 summarised as hypothetical situations; correct?

20 A. In terms of engineering, the positions were there and they were

21 there -- they had been there for a while. And when we communicated with

22 them, this was explained in the sense that these were going to be the

23 second line of defence should the first lines of defence against the

24 Bosnian Serbs fall. That made no sense.

25 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, we have to adjourn sharp at 4.00 today.

1 MR. NICE: Very well.

2 JUDGE MAY: Is that a convenient moment?

3 MR. NICE: It's as convenient a moment as any, and so the Chamber

4 can plan its work for tomorrow, I should think about half an hour, that's

5 all I'll want.

6 JUDGE MAY: And then a fairly short witness, Mr. Naumovski; is

7 that right?

8 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honours. I just wanted

9 to request to try to finish up the witness tomorrow because the witness

10 has been around for the entire week and from our -- the perspective that

11 he's going to be very short.

12 JUDGE MAY: There will be no difficulty in that, it would appear.

13 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, as far as this part of the hearing is

15 concerned, there is another matter we have to deal with at 4.15, but as

16 far as this part of the trial is concerned, we'll adjourn.

17 Mr. Bozic, would you be back, please, at half past 9.00 tomorrow

18 morning to conclude your evidence.

19 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.00 p.m.,

20 to be followed by an Ex Parte Hearing.

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