Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 23667

1 Wednesday, 2 August 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Somers.

7 MS. SOMERS: I just want to pick up from where we left off. I

8 just want to pick up logically from where we left off.


10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 Cross-examined by Ms. Somers: [Continued]

12 Q. Excuse me just one minute, Mr. Cickovic. I'm sorry, but

13 I -- going back to the events of the 16th of April, if we could for a

14 moment, please. You indicated that you were in your apartment when you

15 learned that something had transpired, and that you thought, as a Serb, it

16 would be best to remain in your apartment. Can you please explain that

17 comment? Why, as a Serb, was it more prudent for you to remain in your

18 apartment on the 16th of April, 1993?

19 A. I don't know, but I thought it was best for me to remain in the

20 apartment, because shells were falling all over town and there was

21 shooting.

22 Q. Did that have to do with your being a Serb, that shells were

23 falling all over town? Were your fears based on the shelling or on your

24 ethnic status?

25 JUDGE MAY: I don't think you need answer that question. If there

Page 23668

1 are shells falling, it is prudent probably, we would take it, to stay

2 inside.

3 Were you worried because you were a Serb, particularly worried

4 because of that, Mr. Cickovic?

5 A. Even if I were a Croat, I probably would have stayed in my

6 apartment.


8 Q. You indicated that you heard on -- presumably it was the radio,

9 Radio Vitez, an order for mobilisation on the 16th. You waited till the

10 17th to respond. Was there a particular reason?

11 A. I heard about it on the radio, but that was later in the

12 afternoon, so that day I didn't think I should go.

13 Q. What time in the afternoon did you hear it on the radio?

14 A. I don't know exactly.

15 Q. Can you put it to before supper time?

16 A. Before supper time, probably. In the afternoon.

17 Q. When you went to register or to sign up, you indicated that you

18 were less than eager to do so, but you were handed a rifle by -- was it

19 Samija? Was that the person who gave you the rifle? And you went.

20 A. I did not say that I was not eager to go. I said that when I

21 heard on the radio about mobilisation, that I went to the municipality

22 building, or rather in front of the police station, and I asked for a

23 weapon. It's not that Mr. Samija pushed one into my hands.

24 Q. I shall find it and read it back in a moment. Can I ask you:

25 When you were on the street and you realised that the call was for all

Page 23669

1 military-aged males, did you not notice an absence on the street of

2 military-aged Muslim males, not necessarily for mobilisation, but simply

3 on the street, on the 17th of April? Did you notice that?

4 A. On the 17th, when I reported, it is true that there were no

5 Muslims in the streets.

6 Q. Did that raise any concern, or did you think twice about that?

7 Did you ask yourself where were they?

8 A. Well, yes.

9 Q. And did you find any answers to that question?

10 A. Well, I saw the HVO police going to apartments and I saw that a

11 few men had been taken away.

12 Q. Taken away in what direction? Were they taken away -- excuse me.

13 Were the persons who took them away armed? Were they armed?

14 A. It was the HVO police. They came to my apartment too.

15 Q. Did you see the men being taken in vehicles?

16 A. I only saw them take them out of the building.

17 Q. Did you see the direction in which they were heading from your

18 building?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Did you personally know any of the persons who were being taken

21 out by the HVO police?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Can you name their names, please.

24 A. Enes Spahic, Hamed Zukic. That is from my part of the building.

25 Q. Did you know their families and did their families remain in the

Page 23670

1 building?

2 A. They remained in the building and after a while they left.

3 Q. Did you ask them why their men were taken away?

4 A. Well, I didn't have the time to talk or to ask. I was at the

5 front line. I only had time to go home, take a bath, change, and go

6 back. I did not have much contact with these persons.

7 Q. Did your family remain in your apartment while you were on the

8 front line?

9 A. My family were, in April 1992, in Trogir, in the Republic of

10 Croatia, as refugees.

11 Q. Why did you remain, if they left?

12 A. Well, I remained because I thought it was my place to stay in

13 Vitez, and this was just the wife and the children.

14 Q. Your wife, as a Croat, left Vitez for Trogir as a refugee; is that

15 correct? Do I understand you correctly?

16 A. Yes. Yes.

17 Q. And your three children, are they daughters or sons?

18 A. Two daughters and a son.

19 Q. Were you sending them money? Were you supporting them while they

20 were living away from you?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Was your sole means of earning a living at the time, let's say up

23 until May of 1992, the monies you earned from the cafe that your brother

24 Gojko owned? Was that your living?

25 A. Yes.

Page 23671

1 Q. Did you consult with your brother Gojko before you allowed Mario

2 Cerkez to take your cafe -- his cafe?

3 A. No. There was no possibility to have contact with Yugoslavia.

4 Q. Was he not in Glamoc at the time, or had he already gone to

5 Yugoslavia?

6 A. He had already gone. In March 1992 he went to Glamoc, and he

7 spent a very short while there, about a month.

8 Q. If I understand correctly, you were supporting three daughters and

9 a wife who were refugees. Were they working in Trogir?

10 A. No.

11 Q. You were the sole breadwinner of a family of five, four

12 dependents, and Mario Cerkez was permitted by you voluntarily to take your

13 sole means of earning a living to support other people's families. Is

14 that correct?

15 A. I was quite well off. I had substantial savings.

16 Q. Did you use those savings to send to your family?

17 A. Yes, because I went to visit my family almost every month in

18 Trogir until the conflict broke out, that is to say, until the 16th of

19 April.

20 Q. Till the 16th of April 1993?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Who ran your cafe while you were away?

23 A. Well, it was not necessary because I would go away for two or

24 three days.

25 Q. Did you receive from the HVO any proceeds from that cafe? Did you

Page 23672

1 get any monies?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Was the savings or were the savings which you managed to

4 accumulate made from monies that were earned through the cafe?

5 A. I don't understand.

6 Q. Where did your savings come from? From the money you earned in

7 the cafe?

8 A. Well, I had the cafe, but I worked at the factory, too, and my

9 wife also worked at the factory, that is to say, that we had a pretty big

10 income to live off, and we had substantial savings.

11 Q. Tell us, please, the amount of savings you had in the currency at

12 the time?

13 A. Well, perhaps about 10 or 15.000 Deutschmark, perhaps even more

14 than that.

15 Q. You didn't mention that you served while you were in the HVO under

16 Miroslav Bralo?

17 JUDGE MAY: Well, did he serve under Miroslav Bralo, that's the

18 question.


20 Q. Do you recall, were you serving under Miroslav Bralo when you

21 first were recruited into the HVO?

22 A. [No interpretation].

23 Q. Do you know two individuals, one who is named Edib Zlotrg and the

24 other is named -- let me see if I can get it correct -- Ermadin Gerina?

25 Do you know those two persons?

Page 23673

1 A. I know both of them.

2 Q. Both made comments about your service in the HVO, and I would

3 like --

4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers.

5 MS. SOMERS: Yes, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] You are asking questions, but we

7 need to have an answer one way or the other. You asked the witness

8 whether you served under Miroslav Bralo.

9 MS. SOMERS: Yes, Your Honour, I'm returning to that point so that

10 the Court can see the buildup. I need the answer as well.

11 JUDGE MAY: But the answer was "no." It doesn't seem to be --

12 MS. SOMERS: I want to --

13 JUDGE MAY: Wait a moment. It doesn't seem to be -- yes, it has,

14 it's been missed out on the transcript, but the witness said that he

15 didn't serve under Miroslav Bralo.

16 Now, you want to put to him the two other people who said that he

17 did; is that right?

18 MS. SOMERS: Yes. I'd like to put to him several facts about his

19 service.

20 JUDGE MAY: Right. On what basis are you going to put this?

21 MS. SOMERS: I'd like to ask him, first of all, he indicated he

22 knew the two individuals who commented, and if perhaps they were wrong in

23 their observations.

24 JUDGE MAY: Well, what is the basis of the comments?

25 MS. SOMERS: The basis of the comments, they are statements that

Page 23674

1 were given to the OTP, and --

2 JUDGE MAY: Have they been disclosed?

3 MS. SOMERS: Certainly Zlotrg was and he testified. Gerina I

4 believe may or -- it may or may not have been disclosed. He was not

5 called.

6 JUDGE MAY: Is there anything else that you want to put to him

7 about this matter?

8 MS. SOMERS: I'd like to first solidly get an answer about his

9 service, and if perhaps there was some gap in his memory; and then I'd

10 like to ask him about the credibility of these two individuals if he knows

11 them well enough to comment.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes, but you got some statements. That's the

13 foundation of your, your examination, is it?

14 MS. SOMERS: The statements and also the testimony, live testimony

15 of --

16 JUDGE MAY: Ms. Somers, it is customary when you address a Court

17 to use a customary term, and I'd be grateful if you would do it.

18 MS. SOMERS: Yes, I apologise, sir.

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes, that's less important.

20 Yes, Mr. Mikulicic.

21 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would like to

22 object to this line of questioning by my colleague Ms. Somers. It is true

23 that Edib Zlotrg was a witness before this Court, but it is also true that

24 in his testimony he did not mention the name of our present-day witness

25 Dragan Cickovic at a single point in time. Also, in the disclosed

Page 23675












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 23676

1 statements by the OTP to the Defence, these persons do not mention Dragan

2 Cickovic.

3 As far as the other person is concerned, mentioned by Ms. Somers,

4 this name was never disclosed, and this person never testified before this

5 Court. So I don't think it would be useful to present to this witness

6 statements that were not handed over to the Defence and that -- and by

7 persons who did not appear as witnesses before this Trial Chamber.

8 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, may I comment on the disclosure issue,

9 please?

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

11 MS. SOMERS: Ms. Verhaag confirms that the Garina statement was

12 disclosed. It may have been in a very -- two statements were disclosed,

13 the dates I'm not sure of. In March of 1999. And that, of course, the

14 Zlotrg statement was disclosed; and further, the testimony before this

15 Court on the 24th of April, 1999, by Mr. Zlotrg, does make reference to

16 this particular incident.

17 JUDGE MAY: We'll consider the matter.

18 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 [Trial Chamber confers]

20 JUDGE MAY: Well, we come to the conclusion that we're not going

21 to allow this line of cross-examination. First of all, we accept that

22 Mr. Zlotrg did not give the evidence; and secondly, we are not sure it's

23 going to add very much to the case, anyway. We have a large amount of

24 detail.

25 MS. SOMERS: That actually then changes, Your Honours, a fair

Page 23677

1 amount of the direction of the cross-examination, because much of it was

2 built on our reading of what was in the transcript on this issue. We made

3 the assumptions that that was why the witness was brought to court, to

4 rebut this particular bit of testimony, so just I'll proceed elsewhere.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes. I would go elsewhere.

6 MS. SOMERS: Will do.

7 JUDGE MAY: Just let me look.

8 MS. SOMERS: Surely.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes. You can take the matter fairly rapidly, I should

10 have thought.

11 MS. SOMERS: Yes, of course. Did the Bench wish to have the

12 citation? Would it help just to know what day? It was day 14 of

13 testimony of Mr. Zlotrg. I have page 16 --

14 JUDGE MAY: No. We've finished with Mr. Zlotrg. Let's move on.


16 Q. You mentioned that there was no discrimination against the Muslim

17 population and you included comments about no discrimination against the

18 Serb population in Vitez. Are you aware of whether or not the Serb

19 population, tiny as it was, ever tried to assert any identifiable evidence

20 of Serbness, such as raising a flag or having any type of folk custom

21 instituted? Was there any visible aspect to your very tiny population,

22 identifying you as Serbs?

23 A. As far as I know -- and believe me, I don't know a lot as far as

24 this is concerned -- I think there was an SDS in Vitez as well. That is

25 to say that this is a Serb party. That existed in Vitez as well.

Page 23678

1 Q. Did you ever see any evidence of the flag of the Republika Srpska

2 or, generally, the old Yugoslav flag that was shown by any members of your

3 community?

4 A. I was not a member of this community. I don't know.

5 Q. Do you know an individual from Vitez named Miroslav -- I'm

6 sorry -- Mirsad Ahmic?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Can you -- although you do not know the individual, if you accept

9 that he, in fact, lived in Vitez and was a Muslim, there has been evidence

10 given before this Court that this young man was detained and six days

11 after Ahmici had heard from an individual named Vujica. Do you know

12 someone named Vujica who was in the HVO?

13 A. Well, there are quite a few Vujicas in Vitez.

14 Q. Ivica Vujica. He was in charge of military matters for the Jokers

15 at Nadioci. Do you know that gentleman?

16 A. I don't know anyone personally from the Jokers.

17 Q. The question I have is about your timing on when you learned about

18 the atrocities at Ahmici. You indicated that it was several days after,

19 through discussion on the streets.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. You were already in the HVO as of the 17th of April? Were you on

22 the front line, immediately mobilised?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. The comment that Mr. Ahmic made was that six days --

25 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Ms. Somers, we have to try

Page 23679

1 somehow to organise your cross-examination, because you asked this witness

2 whether he knew Mr. Ahmic. He says no. And then I see in the transcript

3 that he doesn't know him. So there must be a follow-up, in a rational

4 reasoning, under which I think we are all functioning, because we have to

5 be told. Either he knew him -- but he told you that he didn't know him,

6 and then you continue making statements yourself. The cross-examination

7 has to be connected to the examination-in-chief. That is the principal

8 function of cross-examination.

9 MS. SOMERS: Yes, Your Honour. I appreciate that. I am trying

10 to -- if, in fact, any of the Vujicas who was known to him, because it is

11 the comment of Vujica that is at issue. It really is not so much Ahmic,

12 other than he as the bearer of the comment. If the Court would like a

13 proffer as to what I was going to ask, I would be happy to give it, to see

14 if -- otherwise I shall move on.

15 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Yes, go ahead, please. You spoke

16 about Mr. Ahmic again, but please go ahead. Ask the witness whether he

17 knows him.

18 MS. SOMERS: I'm sorry, Judge Bennouna. Were you referring to

19 Ahmic or Vujica, Ivica Vujica.

20 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Vujica. You've dealt with Ahmic.


22 Q. This Ivica Vujica, do you know an Ivica Vuja? Of all the Vujicas

23 you know, is Ivica Vujica one of them?

24 A. I don't know. I know a couple of Vujica families from Rijeka.

25 There was a friend of mine who was killed in front of the cinema by a

Page 23680

1 shell, a math teacher, his brother. Those are the ones I know.

2 Q. He was in charge of the military affairs for the Jokeri and he was

3 at Nadioci. Do you know that man?

4 A. I don't know anyone from the Jokers.

5 Q. Very well. We shall move on, then.

6 You commented about Pero Skopljak. What was your relationship

7 with Pero Skopljak?

8 A. Well, I didn't have any special contact with Pero Skopljak. He

9 came to give political lectures to all the soldiers, not just me.

10 Q. And what was the nature of the political lectures? What was his

11 position?

12 A. I really don't know what his position was. I don't know much

13 about that. But I know that he spoke about the wounded, the killed, the

14 captured, that the captured musn't be killed, mistreated, and things like

15 that.

16 Q. I would ask you please to take a look at Z715.1.

17 JUDGE MAY: This one is number Z715.1.

18 MS. SOMERS: Yes, Your Honour. This is a document from the 18th

19 of April, 1993.

20 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, could we ask for information whether

21 that was disclosed? It seems it was not, but I would like to be sure.

22 MS. SOMERS: I doubt it was. There was no reciprocal discovery

23 issue, so this would be the first time we're presenting it. It is not a

24 new document, but it is not previously disclosed.

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

Page 23681

1 MS. SOMERS: May I proceed?


3 MS. SOMERS: Thank you.

4 Q. There is a Croatian or a B/C/S edition of this document, which is

5 an announcement from HVO Vitez, a public statement, and it is a Pero

6 Skopljak announcement. Can you take a moment, please, just to look at it

7 and see if -- you may have heard it, although you may have been on the

8 front line at that time. Do you recall --

9 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Mikulicic, let's not have any interruptions for a

10 bit. It doesn't say "Pero Skopljak" on it. I agree. But let us try and

11 move on. This is taking a very long time.

12 MS. SOMERS: We shall try to finish it up, since I won't be able

13 to -- [indiscernible].

14 Q. The comments that I'd like to ask you about that were made by

15 Skopljak were whether or not, in the course of any talks that he gave to

16 you, as a soldier, did he use similar language to what is in the third

17 full paragraph in English -- if it's on the ELMO -- about yesterday --

18 it's unclear if this actually was done the 17th and came out the 18th, or

19 done on the 17th, referring to the 16th. "Yesterday this became obvious,

20 and we shall provide the public with explicit evidence of how fanatic

21 Mujahedin," et cetera, et cetera, and using terms that essentially

22 highlight aspects of Muslim culture or religion. When he came to the

23 front, did he use language similar to this?

24 A. I don't know.

25 Q. The text of this document, would you agree, addresses the rights

Page 23682

1 of the Croat people? Would you agree with that assessment, in your quick

2 reading of it?

3 A. I don't know.

4 JUDGE MAY: We won't get much further. Have you ever seen this

5 before? Have you ever seen this document before, Mr. Cickovic?

6 A. No.

7 MS. SOMERS: I shall move on, then.

8 JUDGE MAY: Ms. Somers, I don't think there's much point putting

9 it to him.

10 MS. SOMERS: Okay.

11 JUDGE MAY: Just help me with this. You say it is a Pero Skopljak

12 document. What is the evidence for that?

13 MS. SOMERS: It had come in to the OTP. Unfortunately -- well, if

14 the Court looks simply at the top of the Croatian document, it actually

15 has the facts, point of origin, and for us that is representative of the

16 HVO headquarters and where Skopljak would have been operating at the time.

17 JUDGE MAY: Well, it's certainly headed "HVO Vitez." Yes. Let's

18 move on.

19 MS. SOMERS: Yes.

20 Q. About the relationship of Mario Cerkez to the very tiny Serb

21 minority, can you tell us, please: Were any other cafes owned by Serbs in

22 the location -- I'm sorry -- in Vitez? Were there any other Serb-owned

23 cafes or businesses?

24 A. Yes. There was one opposite me, a cafe/bar called 072. Probably

25 there were others. But this one was right across the road from mine, 072.

Page 23683

1 Q. And can you tell us, please, were those businesses also turned

2 over to the HVO? Do you know?

3 A. The owner of that business, Slobodan Cavic, went to Yugoslavia and

4 left his property to his waiter.

5 Q. And was his waiter a Croat, a Serb, or a Muslim; do you know?

6 A. A Croat.

7 Q. Did he keep the business himself or was it mobilised?

8 A. The business was run by the waiter, and last year the owner of the

9 cafe/bar sold it.

10 Q. In other words, it was not turned over to the HVO; is that

11 correct?

12 A. That business was not turned over to the HVO.

13 MS. SOMERS: Z937.2, please.

14 If the usher would also be kind enough, if you have an extra copy,

15 to put the Croatian first page on the ELMO, it would be helpful.

16 Q. This document dated 12th of May, 1993, the signature for which is

17 unfortunately cut off, but it comes from the Central Bosnia command, IZM

18 Vitez, and the top of it indicates a signature by Mario Cerkez with a

19 notation in Croatian, I am told that indicates "great, hooray." Very

20 positive, very happy reception to the news or the contents of the order.

21 This order was handed down while you were in the HVO. Were you

22 aware of the contents of the order that came originally from General

23 Petkovic and appears between him and Radic, Ratko Radic -- I'm sorry,

24 Mladic, Ratko Mladic, indicating that there was a cessation of all hostile

25 activities between the HVO and the Serb army. Did you know about this

Page 23684

1 order? Was it conveyed to you?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Thank you. Just returning for a very brief moment to wind up your

4 cross-examination, I do want to ask you again about your mobilisation

5 because you did say yesterday, and I shall read it, and perhaps you can

6 explain it, it is on -- let's see, of LiveNote it came out on page 101. I

7 don't now how best to reference it for the Chamber. But you were asked

8 about mobilisation, and your answer was, "And so on the 17th of April of

9 that year in the morning, I came to the police building with two or three

10 friends, and there I found the chief of police, Samija, and he told us to

11 report to the 1st Battalion." And then you said, "I would not do it, but

12 he personally gave me the rifle, and I reported to Mr. Bertovic."

13 Why would you not have done it? That is what you said. What did

14 you mean?

15 A. I didn't say that. I didn't say that I wanted to do it. That is

16 not correct.

17 Q. Did you ask why the mobilisation occurred late in the afternoon or

18 toward dinner on the 16th, inasmuch as you indicated you had learned

19 several days later about events during the early morning at Ahmici on the

20 16th? Did it raise any questions in your mind about the need for

21 soldiers?

22 A. It was announced on the radio that a conflict had occurred between

23 the army and the HVO, and that all able-bodied men should report in front

24 of the municipality building; and as a man of military age, an able-bodied

25 man, I felt it necessary to report because I was a military conscript.

Page 23685

1 Q. Was that the first time you heard on Radio Vitez or any public

2 means a mobilisation order? Was that the first time when you heard it on

3 the 16th? Did you hear one any other time in April or March, or any other

4 time?

5 A. I heard it on the 16th on the radio in the afternoon, the 16th,

6 1993.

7 Q. And that was the only time you heard a mobilisation order. I just

8 want to confirm no other incidents of announcements that you did not pay

9 attention to or that did not concern you; this is the first and only order

10 you heard?

11 A. I don't remember.

12 Q. Okay. I think we're just about there.

13 Your injuries, I'd just like to ask you a little bit about the

14 nature of the injuries that you sustained, and I have a few documents, not

15 too many, that you can just confirm. They would be Z1465.9, Z1473.8,

16 1473.9, and .10, 1473.10. This can be gone through very quickly because

17 they essentially concern the same subject matter.

18 The first --

19 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment till we have the documents. It would be

20 helpful, Ms. Somers, if in future they could be got into order before they

21 are handed up to the Court.

22 MS. SOMERS: Surely. Does everyone have them?

23 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

24 MS. SOMERS: Yes, thank you.

25 Q. The first one, just to confirm that the nature of your injury, and

Page 23686












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 23687

1 these can go very quickly, but the first one is 1465.9, and that

2 particular confirmation, which is handwritten in your language, is by

3 Mario Cerkez himself discussing the nature of your injuries. Is that --

4 is this a correct assessment?

5 A. This is correct, only I wouldn't agree with the dates regarding

6 when I was in the unit.

7 Q. And what would you correct it to? How would you correct it?

8 A. In the unit from the 16th of April, 1993, it would be correct to

9 say from the 17th of April, 1993.

10 Q. The other documents, 73.10, .9, .8, also address this injury, and

11 without taking the Court's time, the question I wanted to ask you was,

12 from what point did you actually start receiving the monies that were

13 given to you for this disability? When did you --

14 A. I don't remember. I don't know exactly. I don't know exactly.

15 JUDGE MAY: Just try and help us with a rough idea. Was it in

16 1995, or was it more recently?

17 A. I think it was in 1995, most probably, but I don't know for sure.


19 Q. Did you receive payment for your time as a soldier in the HVO?

20 Did you receive a salary as a HVO soldier while you were serving?

21 A. I don't know.

22 Q. Then there was no -- you made no money, you made no money, you

23 were living only on savings between 1992 and, let's say, the time of the

24 award of this money?

25 A. I don't know whether you consider 50, 60, or 70 German marks to be

Page 23688

1 a salary that soldiers received. Then I did receive that salary, if that

2 can be considered a salary.

3 Q. That would be a matter for the Judges to consider, but thank you.

4 Excuse me one minute.

5 MS. SOMERS: Sorry, Your Honours, I ask for your indulgence for

6 one minute to make sure I've tidied everything up.

7 Q. One last question. Do you know a woman, a Muslim woman named

8 Edina Hrustic, Hrustic Edina?

9 A. Could you tell me something more about her? The surname is

10 familiar, but I can't recall the first name.

11 Q. The only thing I can tell you about her is a comment that was made

12 by her, I believe to this Chamber, I believe, that she was watching

13 television and heard Miroslav Bralo talk about murderers he committed in

14 Ahmici. That is my association with her. Does that -- would that be your

15 association with her, the comment she might have made? If not, say no.

16 A. No, no.

17 Q. When you went to Kuber on the 17th of April, who was holding the

18 defence line there until the troops were mobilised? Who was actually

19 physically on Kuber when you got there, what troops?

20 A. I don't know, I wasn't there. I think there were village guards.

21 Q. Do you know, yes or no, do you know whether or not Ahmici was in

22 the area of responsibility of your battalion, the 1st Battalion? Can you

23 tell us that?

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 Q. Yes, it was?

Page 23689

1 A. It is there on the front line.

2 MS. SOMERS: Thank you.

3 Re-examined by Mr. Mikulicic:

4 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Mr. Cickovic, you said that late in the afternoon on the 16th of

6 April, a general mobilisation was declared and that you heard it on the

7 radio. Two questions in that connection. Tell us, please, when a general

8 mobilisation was proclaimed, did it apply to all citizens of Vitez?

9 A. Yes, all the citizens of Vitez was involved.

10 Q. On this -- when you reported on the 17th in front of the police

11 building, did you see your co-citizens, Muslims, reporting for

12 mobilisation, too?

13 A. No.

14 Q. When my learned friend from the Prosecution asked you -- when

15 Madam Prosecutor asked you about certain dilemmas that you had to go to

16 the front line, was it because you had no weapon?

17 A. I didn't have a weapon or a uniform. I had nothing.

18 Q. And you said -- you told Mr. Samija then that you wouldn't go to

19 the front line without a weapon?

20 A. Yes. I also asked for a uniform, but there weren't any

21 available. So I went to the front line in civilian clothes, in sports

22 shoes.

23 Q. But he gave you a weapon?

24 A. Yes, he gave me a weapon.

25 Q. Do you know now when you reviewed the documents about your

Page 23690

1 injuries and when you said that you weren't in the unit from the 16th but,

2 rather, from the 17th of April, 1993, do you know that all the other

3 citizens who signed up for mobilisation all had this date indicated, the

4 16th of April?

5 A. Yes, all had the 16th of April.

6 Q. Regardless of when they reported?

7 A. A friend of mine went seven days later. He was afraid of the war,

8 so he joined seven days later, but still the same date is indicated.

9 Q. I see. One more question linked to the last question put to you

10 by the Prosecution. Do you know from when the village of Ahmici was part

11 of the area of responsibility of your 1st Battalion?

12 A. I do not know.

13 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further

14 questions.

15 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Cickovic, that concludes your evidence. You are

16 now free to go. Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 [The witness withdrew]

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Kovacic.

20 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, our next witness is the witness --

21 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone.

22 MR. KOVACIC: Our next witness is Mr. Franjo Mlakic. It is

23 extremely short testimony, but I'm not still sure whether he came since we

24 asked the Prosecution yesterday at the end of the day how long they

25 predict for cross-examination of the just finished witness. They told us

Page 23691

1 one hour at least, so we ask the Victims and Witnesses Unit to bring that

2 witness at 10.30, which is just about now. I do apologise.

3 JUDGE MAY: It looks as though he's here.

4 MR. KOVACIC: Second thing, perhaps, before the witness takes the

5 oath: We also apologise for not distributing his summary, even though it

6 was entirely finished on Sunday evening, but just by administrative -- our

7 administrative error, it was unfortunately distributed only this morning.

8 I'm having it in my bag for two days. It just happened that we mixed up.

9 But the Prosecution did get their copy, I guess, on the same day when it

10 was produced, so there is -- at least we are not putting them in jeopardy.

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.


13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak

14 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15 [Witness answered through interpreter]

16 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18 Examined by Mr. Kovacic:

19 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Mlakic.

20 A. Thank you. Good morning to you.

21 Q. For the record, I shall first ask you to clearly pronounce your

22 name.

23 A. I am Franjo Mlakic, nicknamed Pane.

24 Q. And you were born when?

25 A. On the 21st of February, 1955, in Vitez.

Page 23692

1 Q. And you are married, are you?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. We have to slow down because of the interpretation, because I can

4 see that you are following -- doing it well. We need to have a break

5 between question and answer.

6 So you completed your secondary education and you are an

7 entrepreneur; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And you live in Vitez and you've always lived in Vitez, haven't

10 you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Before the war in Bosnia, you served with the former Yugoslav

13 People's Army; is that correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you served it in Croatia?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Not far from Zagreb, in Dugo Selo?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. What kind of units were they?

20 A. It was a tank unit of sorts.

21 Q. And that was in 1979, 1980, was it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And when you served the army, with the former army, did you earn

24 any rank?

25 A. No.

Page 23693

1 Q. You enrolled at university studies, natural sciences, in 1974; is

2 that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And how many terms did you finish?

5 A. Almost two. That is, two semesters, the first year.

6 Q. And why did you have to discontinue your studies?

7 A. Because I ran into financial troubles.

8 Q. But you were a good student during that year?

9 A. Well, so.

10 Q. And you also tried to study at a different faculty at the same

11 time; is that correct?

12 A. Yes, that too is correct.

13 Q. And what was that other thing?

14 A. It was an institute for the theological culture of laymen at the

15 faculty of theology.

16 Q. And you also cut that short and went back home?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Mr. Mlakic, do you know a person called Marko Lujic, called

19 Markesa?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you know that individual very well?

22 A. I believe I do.

23 Q. Tell me: Do you remember what was the date of the beginning of

24 the general conflict between the HVO and the BH army around Vitez?

25 A. In the morning hours of the 16th of April.

Page 23694

1 Q. You mean 1993?

2 A. Yes, 1993.

3 Q. And after that date, did the above-mentioned Marko Lujic call you

4 at any time after that and offer you a job?

5 A. No sooner did the conflict break out than he did that.

6 Q. And what is it that he offered you?

7 A. He offered me to be his deputy in the production.

8 Q. You cannot recall the exact date, but what do you think -- what do

9 you mean when you say "no sooner did the conflict break out"? So could it

10 have been five, ten days, seven, three?

11 A. Well, I mean some five or six days after the conflict began. I

12 can't remember exactly.

13 Q. And did he explain to you what it was about and why was it he who

14 was offering you that job?

15 A. Because we had already been engaged in similar jobs, and he showed

16 me an order. I believe it was issued by the defence office in the Vitez

17 municipality.

18 Q. And that document showed what?

19 A. That he had been given powers to set up a team like that.

20 Q. And apart from those powers, did it also say that he would be

21 manager or the leader or the shop steward, the man who would be

22 responsible, the man in charge of wartime production?

23 A. Yes, quite so.

24 Q. And were you the only person whom he gathered into his team or

25 were there other people?

Page 23695

1 A. No, no, no. There were quite a number of us.

2 Q. Do you remember perhaps whose signature figured on that

3 document -- on that order of the defence office?

4 A. Yes. Marijan Skopljak's.

5 Q. So you're positive that that document was issued by the

6 municipality authority?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And immediately after that, did you take up the job immediately?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Was it easy? Was it simple?

11 A. Nothing was easy or simple at that time, because there were no

12 production material or anything.

13 Q. But whatever kind of production, I suppose they needed

14 electricity, they needed energy?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Alongside a number of other things?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And was your supply of electricity regular?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Could you say that you spent more time with or without

21 electricity?

22 A. Well, we were more without electricity.

23 Q. And when there was no light, what did you do about energy?

24 A. We used some generators.

25 Q. But electric power generators need fuel.

Page 23696

1 A. They do, but those were small generators, and then whatever we

2 could switch on to it, say 20 kilowatts, and then we simply adjusted to

3 that, and we also cut down the production according to that.

4 Q. But tell us: What exactly did you manufacture at that time, in

5 those early days, the first couple of weeks, that is, end of April/early

6 May?

7 A. Different obstacles, different --

8 Q. Will you explain to the Court what did you do?

9 A. Well, in the beginning, you mean. In the beginning. Oh, I see.

10 Well, it was hedgehogs and that kind of hurdles. But as it developed,

11 then the production developed too.

12 Q. You mentioned hedgehogs. Will you explain to the Court what that

13 is.

14 A. These are three rods which are put together so that APCs or

15 armoured vehicles cannot get through, something in that sense.

16 Q. Oh, you mean to block roads?

17 A. Yes, yes.

18 Q. And during those couple of weeks did you also make some mines or

19 shells?

20 A. Not in the early days, but later on, yes, we did.

21 Q. And could you explain it to us: The SPS, which covers an area

22 larger than the town, where is it? Where exactly did you try to organise

23 your wartime production?

24 A. Down there in the parts where we had mechanical equipment to do

25 that, the place where there were machine tools for mechanical

Page 23697












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 23698

1 manufacturing.

2 Q. And then in August 1993 a different organisation to cover

3 responsibility for wartime production; is that correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And which organisation was it?

6 A. We were then put under the defence office of Travnik.

7 Q. And who was the person number one in the Travnik defence office?

8 A. Mr. Anto Puljic.

9 Q. And that establishment or, rather, Mr. Puljic, did they issue new

10 decisions, new documents to you?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Could you please describe what kind of documents.

13 A. I got the document for the deputy chief of wartime industry.

14 Mr. Mirko [phoen] was accorded the title of the chief of the military

15 industry, or rather wartime production, as it was called at that time.

16 MR. KOVACIC: Just for the record, it is Marko, not Mirko, in line

17 40.

18 Q. And did it then transpire from those documents that it was wartime

19 production for the Central Bosnian area?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And the name of -- it was clear from the name of the function?

22 A. Yes, and the organisation itself.

23 Q. Witness Mlakic, if I understand you well, so you began to do that,

24 to organise the military industry, that is, wartime production, a few days

25 after the conflict broke out. And now the organisation changes, but

Page 23699

1 basically nothing changed for you, because you were at one and the same

2 job all the time?

3 A. Yes, always.

4 Q. That is, as people would say down there, only bosses changed?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And titles and names changed?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Tell me, Witness Mlakic: Are you sure that your chief, Marko

9 Lujic, from the beginning of work for that wartime production and at least

10 until the end of September 1993, was he always there, involved in that

11 activity, and that he had no combat tasks in Vitez units?

12 A. I am sure.

13 Q. Are you sure that he did not have any other military tasks?

14 A. Yes, because he was up there all the time.

15 Q. And you saw him more or less every day or once a week, or how?

16 A. Every day we had a meeting, day in and day out, to discuss what

17 had to be done that particular day, so that he was absent very, very

18 seldom.

19 Q. Witness Mlakic, could it be -- was it possible that alongside his

20 job in the factory, your chief, Marko Lujic, was also a gunman or perhaps

21 gun commander, head of the artillery unit or chief for missile systems in

22 the Viteska Brigade, that is, that he had any other role at that time?

23 A. No, as far as I know, nor did he have any time for that.

24 Q. And perhaps just for clarity: Later on, as you worked in the

25 factory, you also managed to launch the production of some means of

Page 23700

1 defence, that is, explosive devices. Why did you have to do it in the

2 production, considering all the trouble that you had with getting

3 production materials and the like?

4 A. The war production was not organised in that factory alone. It

5 was also organised in other places which made boots and other things. And

6 that factory largely made those weapons which served for the defence. But

7 those were very short-range weapons and they were only distributed around

8 trenches, so that those trenches could put up defence, that is, the front

9 line. No offensive weapons, because we could not do anything of that

10 sort.

11 Q. Since you dealt with that domain with some types of weapons -- can

12 you hear now?

13 A. No. Something is interrupting here.

14 Q. Since you worked in that field, in the field of weapons, did

15 you -- could you get some parts for those weapons from elsewhere, from

16 other towns, from other places?

17 A. From the towns which gravitated towards the Lasva region; that is,

18 Vitez, Busovaca, Novi Travnik, what we could control. Not from anywhere

19 further away, since we were fully encircled.

20 Q. Very well. Thank you. And my last question, Mr. Mlakic: You

21 worked there for two years after the war ended in the valley?

22 A. Yes, because then it was turned over to the Naoruzanje, Vojna

23 Oprema armaments and materiel of Central Bosnia. That was a different

24 institution.

25 Q. That is, you kept your job, but there was again a new boss?

Page 23701

1 A. Yes, yes. Quite so.

2 Q. And were you given a different title on this occasion, something

3 -- well, some [indiscernible] Title?

4 A. No. I kept the same title.

5 Q. But were you ever issued a formal paper that you were being

6 relieved of this duty?

7 A. No, never.

8 Q. So that would mean that you are still at the same job?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. But you are not going there anymore?

11 A. No. About a year and a half or two after that I stopped and went

12 back to my old business.

13 Q. And your colleague, Marko Lujic?

14 A. Well, he stayed after me there for a while, for some time.

15 Q. But how long --

16 A. I wouldn't know, because I had already -- I was already in

17 business with my own business.

18 Q. But was he in the factory in 1994?

19 A. Yes, and I also think that he was in 1995.

20 Q. And then he left?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Witness

23 Mlakic.

24 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, Mr. Kordic's defence

25 has no questions for this witness, thank you.

Page 23702

1 MR. NICE: Your Honour, you'll notice that the central questions

2 on the topic of Mlakic were all in leading form. I didn't want to

3 interrupt. It will necessitate my taking the witness through those

4 matters with a little care.

5 The Court will also remember, I hope, that this is the witness I

6 forecast I would be asking matters of that I might have asked of the last

7 witness but one, but would put off for this witness in order to partition

8 matters out.

9 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice:

10 MR. NICE:

11 Q. Can I just confirm, Mr. Mlakic, that your father's name is --

12 A. Andrija Mlakic.

13 Q. Your father's name is Andrija?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Tell me, please, if you will, what was your involvement in the

16 military affairs of this war? Did you take part in fighting yourself at

17 all?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Did you ever claim that you did?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Were you ever a member of a Home Guard unit?

22 A. No, never.

23 Q. Or of the Viteska Brigade itself?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Did you ever claim that you were a member of either?

Page 23703

1 A. No.

2 Q. You're sure about that, are you?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Where were you on the night of the 15th of April, 1993?

5 A. 15th of April in the evening, I was at home.

6 Q. Where did you spend the day of the 16th of April of 1993?

7 A. 16th of April, 1993, I climbed a hill above my house that is some

8 150, 200 metres as the crow flies.

9 Q. You were living in Vitez at the time?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Did you stay on that hill for the day of the 16th?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Where were you on the 17th?

14 A. On that same hill.

15 Q. So for neither of those days -- on neither of those days did you

16 see anything of a man Mlakic?

17 JUDGE MAY: No, no. That's the witness.

18 MR. NICE: I'm so sorry.

19 Q. On neither of those days did you see anything of the man Lujic?

20 A. I did.

21 Q. Very well. Where did you see him?

22 A. Because he came to see me, to that hill up there.

23 Q. What time do you say he came to see you on the hill, and on what

24 day?

25 A. I couldn't tell you exactly, but I think sometime between morning

Page 23704

1 and noon.

2 Q. On which day?

3 A. On the 16th.

4 Q. What did you talk about?

5 A. About the situation in Rijeka.

6 Q. Tell us a bit more about this conversation, a little bit more

7 about the hill. The conversation first. What can you remember about it?

8 A. We talked about how we should start the production, and that he

9 lives right above my house, I told you some hundred metres or so, perhaps

10 150 as the crow flies.

11 Q. You talked about how you should start the production. Production

12 of what?

13 A. Different means of defence.

14 Q. Well, just fill in the detail for me. Until the 15th, 16th, you

15 had been doing what?

16 A. I was doing all sorts of things. When I say all sorts of things,

17 I was involved in some kind of logistics for military equipment.

18 Q. But not as a soldier at all?

19 A. No, no, no.

20 Q. Employed by whom, then?

21 A. Nowhere. I was at that time -- I had a private business, too.

22 But I did not work at that time because there was a war going on.

23 Q. Well --

24 A. And I was going towards Gorazde and bringing something for --

25 transporting something for Croatia, and there are also papers to show

Page 23705

1 that.

2 Q. All right. So you hadn't been specifically involved in armaments

3 production or manufacture at all; is that right?

4 A. I was purchasing purchases for the production, different

5 production materials.

6 Q. Yes. But you didn't have any skills in the production of

7 armaments, did you?

8 A. Yeah, but there were lads who did that.

9 Q. And you were really, what, a trader? Is that right?

10 A. No. No, I wasn't a trader. I was purchasing.

11 Q. Yes. And selling?

12 A. No, we were not selling that. It was part -- exchange.

13 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, it is not objection, I would just like

14 to suggest if the Prosecutor will tell to the witness which time they're

15 talking about; otherwise, we will be hearing many, many confusions here.

16 That's my feeling.

17 MR. NICE:

18 Q. Mr. Mlakic, I've been asking you about, and I think you

19 understand, the period immediately before the 15th of April, 1993. Do you

20 not understand that to be what I was asking you about?

21 A. Yes, I did, but could you ask me specifically about, about what

22 there is about what did -- what the documents are.

23 Q. I'm going to carry on asking you about what you were doing up and

24 until the time you had this conversation, you see, with the man Lujic. So

25 you were buying or exchanging goods. And how well or otherwise did you

Page 23706

1 know the man Lujic, and in what setting?

2 A. Because we were both involved in the exchange of this military

3 goods, and he also had equipment for it.

4 Q. Was the business you were involved in something called Vitez

5 Trade?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And that was a business, I think, which had as its other

8 participating members Pero Skopljak, Marijan Skopljak, his nephew; is that

9 right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Along with Dragan Safradin, Zlatko Ruzic, would that be right?

12 A. Yes, it would. But Marko and I worked very little through Vitez

13 Trade. They were autonomous.

14 Q. Possibly a last member or another member would be a man called

15 Marijan -- sorry, Damjan Marinic?

16 A. Yes, but Marko at the same time had his company called Grom "L".

17 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, we'll adjourn.

18 Earlier you criticised Mr. Kovacic about leading. I've reflected

19 on that. It is not a leading question to ask, "Is Mr. Marko Lujic or was

20 Mr. Marko Lujic head of artillery?" It's not a leading question.

21 MR. NICE: No, Your Honour --

22 JUDGE MAY: Had leading, improper leading questions been asked, he

23 would have been stopped. So any implied criticism is not accepted.

24 MR. NICE: I'm sorry to hear that because --

25 JUDGE MAY: No, that's the end of the matter. I'm not going to --

Page 23707












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 23708

1 MR. NICE: Very well.

2 JUDGE MAY: -- prolong this. Yes.

3 MR. NICE: Your Honour, there was something else I did want to

4 raise.


6 MR. NICE: And it concerns what happened this morning. I was

7 going to raise it in any event.

8 The Chamber criticised Ms. Somers for her lack of use of a form of

9 address to the Court. I have to say that if she did that in any way that

10 was unsatisfactory, she was probably taking the lead from me because

11 perhaps I am not over-generous with my use of forms of address to the

12 Court. I also have to say that her approach to the Court from the first

13 to last has been of scrupulous good manners and politeness.

14 JUDGE MAY: It's not her good manners which were in question, but

15 counsel should know that if they address the Court, then they should use a

16 proper form of address. It's not a matter which the Court should have to

17 raise; it should be a matter of course. One expects that courtesy at the

18 very least.

19 Yes, we'll adjourn now till half past.

20 --- Recess taken at 11.01 a.m.

21 --- On resuming at 11.35 a.m.

22 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, could I just put one demand before, in

23 order not to interrupt later on?

24 JUDGE MAY: I don't know about a demand, but you can make a point.

25 MR. KOVACIC: The point is that the Prosecution is using quite a

Page 23709

1 lot of documents which more or less are not discovered, and we would

2 appreciate if at least the Prosecution, in order not to interrupt during

3 the testimony, if the Prosecution would at least inform us, at that point

4 of time when the document is presented, whether it's a new document,

5 whether it was disclosed or not.

6 MR. NICE: I'm perfectly happy to do that. I'm not sure whether

7 I'm prepared in relation to all -- the limited number of documents, but

8 I'll do my best with each document as it comes today, and I hope I shan't

9 make any errors about it.

10 Q. Mr. Mlakic, just a couple more points. We dealt with your

11 business dealings and you were telling us about the conversation. And I

12 think you said between morning and noon is that correct, on the morning of

13 the 16th, that you went up this hill -- I beg your pardon -- that you had

14 the conversation with Marko Lujic?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Is this the occasion when Marko Lujic asked you or called you to

17 be his assistant?

18 A. No.

19 Q. But this conversation, when did you first recall the details of

20 this conversation, please, Mr. Mlakic?

21 A. This was an informal conversation.

22 Q. Yes, but --

23 A. Only later agreement was reached.

24 Q. Yes. But when were you first asked to be a witness in this case,

25 please?

Page 23710

1 A. Two or three days ago. To be more precise -- well, I can't be

2 very precise, but it wasn't long ago. Two, three days, four days. I

3 don't know exactly. I've been here for I don't know how long. Four days,

4 five days. So it could be about ten days all together.

5 Q. I don't want to know anything about the content -- I'm not allowed

6 to know and certainly don't want to know anything about the content of

7 what passed between you and the lawyers representing Mr. Cerkez. But just

8 yes or no to this: Did you tell them about this conversation? Did you

9 talk to them about this conversation that you had with Marko Lujic on the

10 16th?

11 A. I did not.

12 Q. So when did you actually first bring it to mind? When did you

13 first remember it?

14 A. Maybe -- I could not tell you now for sure.

15 Q. You went up a hill behind Vitez. Is that to the north of Vitez,

16 the east of Vitez, the west of Vitez, or the south?

17 A. Towards the southern side.

18 Q. When you saw, as you tell us you did, the man Marko Lujic, was he

19 alone or with anyone else?

20 A. Well, I cannot remember all these details exactly now. This was

21 quite some time ago. It's been quite a while.

22 Q. But the best you can tell us is that it was --

23 A. Because there was a lot of movement around there, so I don't know

24 exactly.

25 Q. And all you can tell us is that it was sometime between the

Page 23711

1 morning and noon?

2 A. Something like that.

3 Q. So you certainly can't tell us what the man Marko Lujic was doing

4 at breakfast time, can you?

5 A. What do you mean?

6 Q. You can't, can you? You can't tell us what the man Marko Lujic

7 was doing at breakfast time on the 16th of April; you don't know?

8 A. Of course.

9 Q. Did you not realise, Mr. Mlakic, that you were being brought here

10 to deal with something that was said to have been done and said by the man

11 Marko Lujic on the morning of the 16th of April? Did you not realise

12 that?

13 A. No.

14 Q. I see. Well, you were asked about Mr. Lujic's presence, I think,

15 at the factory. You can't account for his presence at the factory one way

16 or another until some days after the outbreak of the fighting, can you?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How many days after this conversation that you say you had on the

19 hill was it that you were, in the words of your summary, called to be his

20 assistant?

21 A. Well, I could not say exactly now, but about ten days, I think.

22 Q. All right. And did you immediately -- did you agree immediately

23 to work for him as his assistant or did you then take a few more days to

24 settle your own business affairs before joining him?

25 A. I joined him immediately.

Page 23712

1 Q. It was suggested -- you were asked a question, are you sure that

2 he was always there, and are you sure that he was there all the time.

3 From these days, whenever it was, ten days after the start of the

4 fighting, you weren't in his company all the time, were you?

5 A. Well, no.

6 Q. You can't say if he didn't -- while you were busy making

7 munitions, you can't say whether he didn't go off and do other things, can

8 you?

9 A. But I don't understand you. What ammunition during which ten

10 days? I mean, I don't understand your question. I did not say the first

11 ten days.

12 Q. No, but even after I got to the factory, you can't say that you're

13 sure he was there all the time because you would be doing your business,

14 and he would have his own different work to do, correct?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. Thank you. Now, then, just a few -- just tell us this, please, if

17 you will: You know the area of Vranjica, do you, to the southeast of

18 Vitez?

19 A. Vranjica?

20 Q. Yes.

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. While you were on your hill above Vitez, did you see that area,

23 Vranjica, being shelled or attacked with other weapons?

24 A. Well, not really. It's not that there's this view from that hill

25 towards Vranjica. There is yet another hill there, so I could not get a

Page 23713

1 very good view of Vranjica. These are small hillocks, so --

2 MR. NICE: May the witness see a -- Your Honour, I'll just check.

3 I think this is a new document in the sense of -- ah. It's not a Zagreb

4 document, if I can use that shorthand, it's new to the Court, and I would

5 forecast that it hasn't been disclosed because it wouldn't have become

6 relevant until -- may not have been disclosed. 1477.8, please.

7 Q. Can you tell us please, I should have asked you this before you

8 looked at the document, what is your understanding of the 92nd DP Viteska

9 unit, please?

10 A. I'm sorry, but I don't understand your question.

11 Q. Very well.

12 A. Which unit?

13 Q. Well, if you'd like now, then, please to look at the document

14 that's before you, if the English could go on the ELMO with the original

15 to the witness.

16 This is a document, Mr. Mlakic, dated December 1996, but it is

17 said to be a document issued at your request because, Franjo Andrija

18 Mlakic is you, and we can see the date of birth given, the 21st of

19 February --

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. -- yes, is you. Now, this document apparently signed by Colonel

22 Dragan Vinac, speaks of your being a member of the 92nd DP Viteska from

23 April 1992 to January 1996. Can you explain that, please?

24 A. It is true that I was wounded, but not near Vranjica but by

25 Krajkovaca. Vranjica is in a completely different area. However, it is

Page 23714

1 not true that I was ever a member of any unit. I asked for this so that I

2 could get -- oh, what do you call it? -- money, money for disability.

3 However, I never managed to get that because those people down there, they

4 didn't want to confirm.

5 Q. You're saying that this document is basically untrue in all its

6 particulars? It's quite detailed. It says you were injured in the

7 stomach area and the left thigh. That's true, is it?

8 A. Yes, yes. I'm not claiming that that is not correct. I am just

9 saying that I was never a member of the Domobran Regiment or the Viteska,

10 and there are documents for that. I asked for this document in order to

11 obtain the rights that disabled persons get, and it's not the same for

12 soldiers and others.

13 Q. Well, is it right that it was Krajkovaca that you were injured?

14 Krajkovaca?

15 A. Yes, yes, yes, that's correct.

16 Q. And it says here that you were on the front line of defence.

17 That's untrue, is it?

18 A. No, that is not untrue. It is correct I was at the front line;

19 however, I went there to check the weapons.

20 Q. Is going -- was going to check the weapons something that people

21 from the factory did on a regular basis?

22 A. Well, quite, because, because these weapons and ammunitions are

23 made in a very primitive way. Often they wouldn't work, the fuses or

24 whatever. So something like that happened, so I went up there. Something

25 wouldn't fire, so I went to check and to see what it was all about.

Page 23715












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 23716

1 Q. And of course, a technician like Marko Lujic would sometimes be

2 required, no doubt, to check on whether a weapon was working or to make

3 sure that it did work when perhaps it had failed. Would that be about

4 right?

5 A. Here it was a question of ammunition. This was done in a very

6 primitive way, and it wouldn't fire. That was it. It was sort of in that

7 sense.

8 Q. All right.

9 A. I don't know how I can explain this to you technically.

10 Q. Can you have a look quickly at one more document, 2487, which,

11 again, I think is new but not, I think, Zagreb. It's in the International

12 Armed Conflict binder, I'm grateful.

13 [Trial Chamber confers with registrar]

14 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I gather there may be one page -- I'm so

15 sorry.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

17 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I understand that there was one page

18 missing in the International Armed Conflict binder. I'm very grateful to

19 the registry for drawing that to our attention. The pages missing from

20 the Court's bundles now I think have been provided; and if they're missing

21 from the Defence bundles, I'm sure they will be provided as well.

22 Q. Mr. Mlakic, this document, you see, you say you were never serving

23 in any way, this document purports to be a recommendation that you should

24 have the rank of Captain. That's in 1995. That it sets out under

25 paragraph 3 that you were in the reserve forces from the 16th of April,

Page 23717

1 having joined the armed forces on the 1st of March of 1992.

2 And if we turn over the page on the English -- if the usher would

3 be so good, if you'd like to follow this, if you have the original

4 document before you, and I trust it's legible, I think it is -- it says

5 this: That until March 1992, you gave logistic support for the armed

6 forces of Croatia. Is that correct?

7 A. Yes, that is correct.

8 Q. It then goes on to say that from March 1992 until the 16th of

9 April, you carried out the same duties, but as a member of the Vitez HVO

10 in the territory of Vitez. Now, is that correct?

11 A. I did not take part in this logistics support as a soldier but as

12 a civilian. It is correct that I went to Gorazde and that I brought in --

13 how should I put this? -- things that were needed for production, for

14 special purposes, and I obtained that. This document was issued so that

15 ranks could be given in the wartime industry because we in the war

16 industry did not belong to any category of the armed forces. We wanted

17 these people to get something, somehow. What the upshot of all of this is

18 is that we did not get anything. The document was not even recognised by

19 the then Herceg-Bosna, because had they wanted to recognise it, I would

20 have had a rank; I would have not remained what I was and what I am.

21 Q. There are two points that follow from the passage we're looking

22 at, Mr. Mlakic, and your answer. First, it says here quite specifically

23 you were a member -- you were doing your job as logistics for the HVO and

24 as a member of the HVO of the Vitez municipality. Now, just tell us: Is

25 that right? It's not a question of doing it on your own account as a

Page 23718

1 businessman. You were doing it as a member of the HVO, weren't you?

2 A. No. I carried out these duties as a volunteer, not as a member of

3 the HVO, and not representing any company. I did not take any money for

4 that. I was not paid for that. And I've already said that.

5 Q. And then finally on this passage, just look, please, and follow

6 with me what it says. It says:

7 "From the 16th of April until the 1st of August, he was a member

8 of one of the units of the Viteska Brigade using rocket artillery

9 systems."

10 A. Where is this?

11 Q. I'm sorry. If it's not there in the original, it's at the foot of

12 the first page, I think you'll find.

13 A. Oh, here it is. Yes.

14 Q. I'll read it again.

15 "From the 16th of April 1993 until the 1st of August, 1993, he

16 was a member of one of the units of the Viteska Brigade using rocket

17 artillery systems."

18 Now, why on earth, if it wasn't simply true, did you allow such a

19 thing to be recorded against your name, please?

20 A. For financial support.

21 Q. You see, are you saying to the Court that it was necessary to

22 claim, falsely, military function in order to get some form of financial

23 support? Is that what you're saying?

24 A. Yes, because war production did not belong to any one of the

25 branches. That can be seen from all those certificates. And this paper

Page 23719

1 also was not recognised by the then Republic of Herceg-Bosna. Had they

2 recognised this document, I would have been a captain now, and I haven't

3 got a thing now.

4 Q. But you see, your explanation, I'm going to suggest to you,

5 Mr. Mlakic, simply can't be correct, because look at the last sentence of

6 the same paragraph. You only give yourself four months or so of military

7 service and then say from the 1st of August, 1993 until today he's been

8 the deputy chief of war production. And that may well have been true.

9 Was that true, that you were the deputy chief of military production, but

10 only from the 1st of August?

11 A. No. I was that immediately after the outbreak of the conflict, as

12 soon as war production was established.

13 Q. The man Puljic has given evidence, and I think his account is that

14 you were in that position from the summer. Is the truth that it was from

15 the summer and that until the summer you, and indeed Marko Lujic, were

16 engaged as rocket artillery system operators for the Viteska Brigade?

17 A. That is not true. We were working immediately up there at the

18 SPS, and we immediately established war production, which later moved on

19 to supervision of the Operative Zone.

20 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours --

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

22 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I think that this was a situation

23 where the question implied something for which there were no grounds. It

24 is not true that Witness Puljic claimed that. Yes, during his testimony

25 it was mentioned that these persons were in war production before Puljic's

Page 23720

1 office took over war production. This assertion is not correct, and

2 that's not the way it can be put to the witness.

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let's go on with the document.

4 MR. NICE: Yes.

5 Q. Paragraph 9, please. This is what you also allowed to be recorded

6 against your name: First, that you had been supplying illicit weapons to

7 the Croatian population in Central Bosnia; then, in the second sentence,

8 that you had produced vast quantities of military materiel for the defence

9 of Central Bosnia through representatives of Croatian authorities. True

10 or false?

11 A. Not through the Croatian authorities. I did all this on my own

12 initiative. I was independent in my activities.

13 Q. Help us, please, with why, then, in this document, you chose to

14 write down or have someone write down for you that you had been getting

15 quantities of military materiel from the Republic of Croatia and then you

16 actually identify the firms: Pobjeda in Gorazde, Slavko Rodic in Bugojno,

17 Bratstvo in Novi Travnik?

18 A. Because I worked with those factories, and I supplied those same

19 factories, in return, with weapons from the Republic of Croatia.

20 Q. And these weapons that you were bringing from the Republic of

21 Croatia, can we hear again: Were you trading in them, so that you were

22 acting as a middleman, or were you simply facilitating the movement of

23 Croatian weapons to Central Bosnia?

24 A. I delivered weapons to Foca and Gorazde and Bugojno and Novi

25 Travnik, and I supplied companies with this. And in return I took back

Page 23721

1 certain materiel. This was an exchange of goods, and this can be seen

2 from their documents.

3 Q. But the -- please answer the question. The weaponry came from the

4 state of Croatia; correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And it wasn't a question of your buying it from the state of

7 Croatia in order to sell it and make a profit; it was simply provided by

8 the state of Croatia. Correct?

9 A. I'm saying that I engaged in exchange. Let me give you an

10 example. I took some weapons to Gorazde, and from them I took some other

11 materiel and drove it to the Republic of Croatia. It's a highly

12 complicated undertaking and one factory cannot do it, so several factories

13 need to be involved. And it was necessary to supply this materiel to

14 various factories and then collect elements in order to put them together,

15 and all the necessary documentation for this exists.

16 Q. What was the materiel you took back to Croatia? We're going to

17 see one example of the materiel a little later, but tell us what you say

18 you took back.

19 A. The materiel that I took was the materiel needed from production,

20 from initial capsules, fuses, and in return I would bring either

21 ready-made weapons or weapons and ammunition that could be made

22 operational in those factories. So I would take to Gorazde the casings,

23 rockets, and things like that. I can't remember exactly, but all the

24 documents are fully in order about that, and I think this Court has those

25 documents.

Page 23722

1 Q. Thank you. And then finally paragraph 9 ends in this way in the

2 English. You participated in establishing the first line for production

3 of missiles and shells, that after the conflict you participated actively

4 in the defence of the territory. In the English version that sentence

5 ends in a full stop and then the words "war production" are set out. And

6 then it says during the homeland war on the 6th of November you were

7 wounded at Krajkovaca. Were you wounded at Krajkovaca on the 6th of

8 November as opposed to on the 23rd of July? Which was it?

9 A. I think it was the 23rd of July, but I don't know for sure. But

10 there are the documents, and this can be checked. I think it was in the

11 summer, not as late as this.

12 Q. Very well. Then the last document -- the very last document on

13 this, just to tidy it up, please, 1226.4. You see -- I'm so sorry. Now,

14 this document, Mr. Mlakic, relates to your work as the deputy chief of the

15 department for war manufacturing, and it says that a resolution was made

16 in the Travnik organisation that the duty of deputy chief should be given

17 to you as of the 1st of October, 1993. Now, the date of this document, if

18 you look at it, at the top, is the 1st of October, 1993, assuming it's an

19 accurate document. So this document, I'm going to suggest to you, cannot

20 have been generated, cannot have been made in 1994 or 1995 in order to get

21 you a pension or in order to get you salary. This is a contemporaneous

22 document and it records the truth, that you were only involved in war

23 manufacturing as deputy chief as of the 1st of October, because until then

24 you had been engaged, as the other documents suggest, in the capacity of a

25 member of the Viteska Brigade using rocket artillery systems. Isn't that

Page 23723












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 23724

1 the truth?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Can you then explain how this contemporaneous document of the 1st

4 of October records your engagement as of a date in October 1993?

5 A. Could you please --

6 Q. Of course. Can you explain how this document records your

7 appointment to the job of deputy chief of the department for war

8 manufacturing as of the 1st of October, 1993?

9 A. Because the first document issued by Marijan Skopljak was a

10 municipal document issued by the municipal department, and this is issued

11 by the Department of Defence in Travnik. So the other was on behalf of

12 the municipality, and this is on behalf of several municipalities, the

13 Travnik department, which covered several municipalities.

14 Q. The Skopljak document, do you know where it is?

15 A. No. Marko just showed it to me, that he has been authorised to

16 form a team for production.

17 Q. Marko Lujic was, of course, a good friend of Mario Cerkez, wasn't

18 he?

19 A. I don't know that.

20 Q. Did you not see him in his company?

21 A. As far as I know, we didn't have much time to discuss such things,

22 at least as far as I know. But what I don't know I can't say.

23 Q. And where is Marko Lujic now?

24 A. I couldn't tell you because I haven't seen him for two years now

25 because I went back to my old job again.

Page 23725

1 Q. But on your account, just so that I've got this quite clear, Lujic

2 did nothing in the course of the conflict that would -- that could cause

3 him shame or embarrassment; he simply manufactured arms. Is that right?

4 A. Yes. And we manufactured fortification obstacles, among other

5 things, and also weapons.

6 Q. Were you sitting on the hill or standing on the hill to the

7 southeast of Vitez when the truck bomb went off?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Where were you when that bomb went off?

10 A. I was at home.

11 Q. So you weren't with the man Marko Lujic?

12 A. No.

13 Q. You can't help one way or another whether he was involved with

14 that, can you?

15 A. I don't know with what certainty I could assert that, but he -- I

16 think he was not. I think with certainty he was not. But as far as I'm

17 aware and judging by the way these boys boasted about it, apparently the

18 Vitezovi had done it headed by Kraljevic.

19 Q. [Microphone not activated] ... boasted about it apart from

20 Kraljevic?

21 A. But, but those Vitezovi who were with him, but I don't know them

22 really well because he collected boys from various parts, young men.

23 Q. Yes.

24 A. And I don't really know him, either, too well. We had quite a

25 number of clashes and disputes.

Page 23726

1 Q. You've spoken of these boys. It would help the Chamber to know

2 the names of them. I dare say if you'd like to give the names in private

3 session, that would be allowed to you.

4 Do you know any of the names apart from Kraljevic that you can

5 help us with?

6 A. I don't know.

7 Q. Finally, so far as your own history is concerned, and then I've

8 only got one or -- two other topics, one very brief and one not very long

9 to deal with. Do you know somebody called Selo Mlakic?

10 A. Zeljo Mlakic.

11 Q. Zeljo Mlakic.

12 A. I know my brother Zeljo Mlakic, and another -- I know another

13 Zeljo Mlakic. He's also a relative of mine, but I think he died during

14 the war.

15 Q. Were you at the house of either of those men in October, and

16 particularly on the 20th of October of 1992, and if so, were you throwing

17 a missile or using a missile there on that occasion. Can you remember

18 anything like that?

19 A. No. I wasn't firing projectiles, and I don't know that I was in

20 that house, either.

21 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm not going to deal with the documents.

22 Q. Is there something you wanted to add?

23 A. No.

24 MR. NICE: I'm not going to deal with the documents that touch on

25 Lujic's own engagement with the Viteska Brigade. They've been dealt with,

Page 23727

1 with another witness, and I don't see any reason to put them to this

2 witness. The Court will remember them. They are 2480.2 and 1009.1, which

3 brings me to the last topic.

4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Mlakic, you understand what's being put to you,

5 that you've given account of working in the production department in the

6 summer of 1993, and it may be that somebody looking at the documents which

7 we've seen might well come to the conclusion that, in fact, you had been

8 part of this unit which was referred to, of the Viteska Brigade, using

9 rocket artillery during that summer, because here are documents which

10 refer to you as a member of the Viteska Brigade, as a member of the unit,

11 and as being in charge of or the deputy for production from the 1st of

12 August or the 1st of October.

13 Now, can you explain to us why these documents can possibly have

14 come into existence if they're not right?

15 A. Because the decision on war production is something that no one

16 wanted to address. There were more than 260 workers involved in war

17 production, and at one point they found themselves in a very difficult

18 position. They had no status, so that more or less all of those people

19 involved in war production sought to have documents of this kind in order

20 to obtain some financial resources and support.

21 JUDGE MAY: Who was prepared to forge documents --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone please, Your Honour.

23 JUDGE MAY: Who was prepared to forge documents on your behalf in

24 order to give you that status?

25 A. The signatory of this.

Page 23728

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes, thank you.

2 MR. NICE: There's one document that I'm going -- I'm turning now

3 to production of weaponry and so on. There's one document that I've

4 just -- I'm having copied that by oversight hadn't been copied, and can I

5 ask for the registrar's assistance with, I think, an outstanding exhibit

6 which is 1220.2. And it may be necessary for me to try and -- I'm sorry

7 to have not teed this up, set this up. It may be necessary for me to find

8 the original passage in the original version. It's page 11 -- or it's the

9 front page to look at what we're looking at, and then it's page 11 of the

10 text.

11 So first of all what we're looking at comes dated the 28th of

12 September, and it's an assessment to be sent to the Travnik Defence

13 Administration in Vitez, signed by Marijan Skopljak, and it says, "Please

14 find enclosed an assessment of the military, political, economic, and

15 other conditions in the wartime."

16 The next page in English, that is the cover sheet of the document,

17 is headed appropriately "Assessment of Political, Economic, and Other

18 Conditions In Wartime." If we can go to page 11. Then if the usher or

19 the witness likes to hand me the -- sorry, page 11 of the English on the

20 ELMO. Thank you very much. And I'm sure we can find quite easily the

21 parallel page in the B/C/S version. It's the page that lists 600 rockets

22 for multiple rocket launchers.

23 There's only one passage on this document which is available of

24 course for general review by my friends and by the Chamber. That's fine.

25 Absolutely fine.

Page 23729

1 Q. We see one passage here at the top of the screen in English, and I

2 ask you to find it in the document, it says this: "Wartime production was

3 organised before the conflict with Muslim forces."

4 JUDGE MAY: Let's see if the witness has got it. Have you got

5 that passage?

6 A. I've only had the number of pieces here.

7 MR. NICE: If you bring me the document, I'm sure I'll find it.

8 Probably the usher has found it; he's extremely helpful.

9 Q. The paragraph that I hope you're looking at reads, "Wartime

10 production was organised before the conflict with Muslim forces. It was

11 organised illegally because of the presence of Muslim personnel in special

12 purpose production."

13 Now, I recognise that on your account, even you weren't there

14 until April, and I'm suggesting to you that you may not have been involved

15 in production until August or October; but from wherever you were there,

16 are you able to interpret this passage for us? And what I'm asking you is

17 this: Does this suggest that there was production before the conflict

18 without the Muslims' knowledge?

19 A. In certain segments, yes, but only segments, which means in

20 certain parts that we transported to the republic of Croatia, but these

21 were small and limited quantities.

22 Q. But you were arming -- you were creating arms and keeping the

23 Muslims ignorant of the fact that you were doing so; is that correct?

24 A. No. These were certain parts, parts of weapons. I said a moment

25 ago, to manufacture a rocket is an enormous undertaking and a large number

Page 23730

1 of companies are involved. And if we were preparing just the fuses, then

2 those were the fuses. So this is a hundredth part of a rocket.

3 Q. Very well. But this was done to the ignorance of the Muslims for

4 how long before the outbreak of the fighting --

5 A. But they participated with us. What do you mean without their

6 knowledge? When I went to Gorazde and took supplies from there.

7 Q. That's why I'm asking you for an interpretation of this passage,

8 if you can help us. "It was organised illegally because of the --"

9 A. I can't --

10 Q. I'm so sorry, same passage. "It was organised illegally because

11 of the presence of Muslim personnel in special purpose production." Why

12 did it have to be organised illegally because of the presence of Muslim

13 personnel?

14 A. I am not familiar with this because we were working with Muslims,

15 I, personally.

16 MR. NICE: Very well. Next document, please, which now is copied

17 is 1166.2. It's a new document, coming right away. It's new, but it's

18 not Zagreb.

19 MR. NICE:

20 Q. Now, on your account, this was within your period of office. It's

21 dated the 16th of August. And let's look at the subject first. It's a

22 request for the supply of materiels from the Travnik HVO.

23 "Based on the conclusions reached at the meeting of the staff of

24 the office of the HVO vice-president and the presidents of the municipal

25 HVO branches in Travnik, Novi Travnik, Vitez, and Busovaca municipalities

Page 23731

1 regarding procurement of necessary materiel and technical equipment

2 through the HVO coordinating body in Split, we are sending you the

3 specifications of the needed material."

4 And then there's set out bullets, machine-guns, plates, grenades.

5 And it then says this:

6 "After procurement, make materiel available to the logistics

7 department of the command of the Central Bosnia Operative Zone, by no

8 means to individual brigades or municipalities."

9 First of all, is that method of requesting or ordering supplies

10 and distributing supplies what happened in the course of the conflict?

11 A. We did make some requests, and little quantities arrived by

12 helicopter and parachute, but this was a drop in the ocean. That was all

13 that could be done. Because our requests were vast, our needs were vast,

14 and that is why we manufactured what we did.

15 Q. But I just want to know if the procedure set out here accords with

16 your recollection of events, and I think it does.

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. It's a Puljic document, as we can see. Now --

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. We see that there's a reference of delivering to the office of the

21 vice-president of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna. Who was that?

22 A. It says, yes, "hand to the office of the vice-president." I think

23 it was Dario Kordic, as far as I know.

24 Q. And did that again accord with the general practice at the time so

25 far as munitions requests were concerned?

Page 23732

1 A. I don't know what the standard procedure was. The ammunitions we

2 manufactured we delivered to the logistics centre, and the logistics

3 centre then distributed it among the brigades. And he knew what he had

4 and what they were short of. They did that. There was no need for me to

5 be informed. We just did what was asked of us in view of the

6 circumstances and the materiel we had at our disposal. That is what we

7 manufactured. And what we produced, we delivered to the logistics centre.

8 Q. And does it follow from this document that the vice-president of

9 the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna was centrally involved in the

10 ordering and allocation of arms in the conflict?

11 A. I could not tell you that. All I can say is what we produced,

12 what we made, what we gave to whom, and there is the appropriate

13 documentation to show it.

14 Q. If one looks at the letter -- the copies of this letter of

15 request, the only identified personnel, apart from the chief of

16 administration and the logistics of the Central Bosnia Operative Zone, is

17 the office of the vice-president. I mean, you were dealing with this on a

18 regular basis. Please help us. Was that the person to whom these

19 communications were regularly sent?

20 A. No. Never was a single such request sent from our war

21 manufacturing unit to this office. The chief of logistics in this area

22 under consideration was Anto Sliskovic, and he was the one to whom

23 everything was delivered.

24 Q. But now you can't explain this document at all and why it was sent

25 there? I had hoped I had given you enough time to look at it carefully.

Page 23733

1 A. No.

2 Q. I see. Very well.

3 A. Yes, but I don't understand why it went there.

4 Q. I'm going to suggest, since you make that point, I'm going to

5 suggest you know perfectly well that he was coordinating military matters,

6 and that you also know that you've got to try and deny that in this

7 Court.

8 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Naumovski, you should not interrupt unless there's

9 a valid reason. Now, why? It's an important question. What is the

10 objection?

11 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it is very simple.

12 Mr. Kordic was never mentioned during the examination-in-chief. The

13 witness came here to testify about a completely different matter. And now

14 I do not see why this insistence on the document which is

15 self-explanatory. It all says in the document. Now questions are asked

16 of a witness, who has nothing to do with Mr. Kordic, to give his opinion

17 about the document, Mr. Kordic, and I don't know what else, hence the

18 objection.

19 JUDGE MAY: It is clearly a relevant matter as to the role which

20 Mr. Kordic played -- it's central to this case -- the role, if any, which

21 Mr. Kordic played in military matters. Here we have a request to him,

22 your case being that he was simply a politician, for materiel and

23 equipment. Now, the Prosecution are quite entitled to put the document to

24 a witness, who is a man involved in production, to ask him about it. It's

25 clearly relevant. It's a matter that you will have to deal with in due

Page 23734

1 course.

2 Now, put the question again.


4 Q. I'm suggesting to you that you know perfectly well that this

5 request went to him because he was centrally involved in military matters

6 in Central Bosnia, and further, that you're denying that because you know

7 you've got to try and protect him here in Court. Can I have an answer,

8 please.

9 A. No. I am not familiar with this document. This is the first time

10 I see it. And it has nothing to do with wartime production.

11 Q. Can you look briefly at the next Exhibit, 1426 --

12 JUDGE MAY: One matter.

13 MR. NICE: I'm so sorry.

14 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Naumovski, having considered the matter, it's

15 pointed out, and it's probably -- I'm sure it's right, that since you

16 haven't seen the document before, you can have the opportunity to examine

17 the witness after the cross-examination about it. So if you want to

18 cross-examine the witness, you can.

19 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20 MR. NICE: 1246.1. It's a new document. We can look at it

21 briefly, but it's for context and fairness, since this witness has come to

22 talk about, amongst other things, provision of materiels. This document,

23 please, English on the ELMO. Thank you very much. And original for the

24 witness.

25 Would Your Honour just give me one minute while I check something,

Page 23735












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 23736

1 in case I've overlooked something that I ought to have dealt with.

2 Q. This document, dated the 13th of October, comes from Cerkez and

3 deals with on the basis of work to date in the SPS. It's clear that the

4 level of production sometimes slumps and is sometimes stable. And he then

5 goes on to level certain complaints of a detailed nature. It deals with

6 the employment of women. And at paragraph 2 it says this:

7 "We know that sheet metal for the production of anti-personnel

8 directional fragmentation mines is running out, and we warn you to

9 actively engage in finding sheet metal and to maximise production of

10 plastic mines, because Mr. Franjo Mlakic requested two days ago the

11 production of MRUDs begin according to his plan."

12 And he then suggested that such explosive devices had proved to be

13 a guarantee of safety on our lines and must save the municipalities in the

14 Lasva region. Was there generally a successful production of

15 anti-personnel fragmentation mines in your factory?

16 A. Well, were the productions successful, they wouldn't be asking us

17 to make them from plastics, because they killed both from the front and

18 from the back.

19 Q. The reality is that of course you had high demands for arms,

20 because you were engaged in an armed conflict. But the reality is the

21 factory was successful in turning out a lot of product, wasn't it?

22 A. I don't know what one can call as successful, because there was

23 all makeshift devices. They were all makeshift. They were not properly

24 adopted devices. That is, made of material that was available on the

25 spot. And we wanted to use it to make something.

Page 23737

1 MR. NICE: 1302.2, just touching on the question of helicopters.

2 Q. The reality was that you were trading -- not trading -- you were

3 getting arms by helicopter from time to time; correct?

4 A. Well, some ammunition arrived. Weapons, no. But something was

5 inside, and what fell down, because you know how it is: When something

6 lands with a parachute, some of it was broken. So it did not suffice for

7 a proper battalion, let alone the region.

8 Q. And the materiel coming in by helicopter was coming in from

9 where? Croatia?

10 A. I wouldn't be able to tell you that.

11 Q. It was coming in to your factory; correct?

12 A. Well, yes, but the logistic was taking it over from the command,

13 from the military district, and then what was for us, they sent on to us.

14 But a great deal was delivered by parachute, so it landed left and right,

15 that is, both amongst the Muslims and amongst us, if I may call it that,

16 or Muslims and Bosniaks.

17 Q. I'm going to respectfully suggest to you, Mr. Mlakic, that if

18 you're engaged in the arms business and you're waiting for supplies, even

19 if you're not responsible for getting the supplies, you're going to know

20 where they came from. Now, where did this stuff come from that came by

21 helicopter? Did it come from Serbia?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Of course not.

24 A. I think that it was run from Grude, but where they did get it

25 from, I cannot really tell you all with certainty.

Page 23738

1 Q. The logical place for it to come from is Croatia; you would accept

2 that?

3 A. Well, with some I can agree, with some I can't. It depends on

4 what is made where and how it was done. I told you that it was an

5 extremely complex area. If a particular ball bearing was made down in

6 Mostar, so why should it come from Croatia? You must say specifically

7 what and how, and then I shall be able to give you a definite answer.

8 Q. This document dated the 3rd of November, signed by Puljic, to the

9 wartime production Marko Lujic, the person under the various HVO

10 precedents, concerns the ordering of a helicopter pad and requires that to

11 be done immediately. And the position is that you had enough -- not

12 trade -- you had enough movement of helicopters by November of 1993 to

13 justify trying to have a proper pad built, didn't you?

14 A. We, I mean, got it up there, but we never managed to make it,

15 because we were short of oil and other things to make this pad, so that

16 the pad and the rest of it was never made.

17 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I've got nothing else. I'm not going to

18 trouble with other documents. There was one passage in the larger

19 document, 1220.2, that I could have put to the witness. I'll see if he

20 can remember it without going through the exercise in paper. It's again

21 on page 11.

22 Q. Do you recall that in the course of, it must be 1993, there was a

23 time in the production of gunpowder when you were able to supply the

24 Republic of Croatia with 3.000 kilograms of gunpowder?

25 A. Yes, but we almost immediately ran out of electricity. But the

Page 23739

1 quantity was not that. It's just too much, even for that factory, because

2 its annual output was 400 tonnes when it was at its peak.

3 Q. If you accept in principle that there's an entry to that effect,

4 if you were providing thousands of kilograms of gunpowder to Croatia,

5 was that for them to convert that gunpowder -- not convert it -- to use

6 that gunpowder in making armaments which were then returned to you, or was

7 it for some other purpose of Croatia? Which was it?

8 A. Sir, a thousand tonnes of gunpowder is a tremendous amount for any

9 type of military plant, let alone Vitez, because it is a big plant, but it

10 cannot make. But they had a warehouse down there. And after the bombing

11 by the JNA -- and it was meant for export to Iraq and other places, and

12 they had their huge warehouses from where they were taking it. But

13 naturally they always got from us because at that time we had this

14 exchange, and at that time we had joint manufacture of weapons and this

15 gunpowder, and it was all shared equally, at least as far as I know,

16 because I did not take a direct part in this distribution. And it would

17 be rather the manager of the Pesit [phoen] who could tell you about that

18 because he was manager at the time.

19 Q. Just to settle your understanding, and it may be that there was a

20 misunderstanding, I was speaking about not tonnes but 3.000 kilograms of

21 gunpowder. That was the amount I was asking you about. And are you

22 saying that gunpowder that went to Croatia would be used by them for

23 onward transmission to, was it Iran? Is that what you're saying ? Or

24 Iraq, I think.

25 A. No. I'm referring to the Vitez's warehouse down there. And of

Page 23740

1 the 3 tonnes, I don't know specifically what it is about. If it is while

2 I was up there, the deputy chief, then there is a document about it. And

3 I do not know specifically what 3 tonnes are you referring to. I didn't

4 know which gunpowder. For mortars, for rocket, I don't know. I must know

5 what it's about specifically.

6 MR. NICE: Thank you.

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Naumovski.

8 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation], Your Honour, very briefly.

9 JUDGE MAY: Yes, on the Exhibit 11662.

10 MR. NAUMOVSKI: Yes, Your Honour.

11 Cross-examined by Mr. Naumovski:

12 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Mlakic, on behalf of Mr. Kordic's defence, I

13 should like to ask you only a couple of questions in relation to a

14 document that was referred to earlier on. I guess you have this document

15 before you. It is document 1166.2. Will you please just look at the

16 first paragraph. The first paragraph in the original, that is, in

17 Croatian. Based on the conclusions reached at the meeting of the Zagreb

18 office of the deputy president of the HVO and presidents of municipal HVOs

19 of the municipalities in the Lasva; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Now, do you understand, do you know who was the vice-president of

22 the civilian government of the HVO?

23 A. The vice-president of the civilian government of the HVO was

24 Jadranko Prlic.

25 Q. Do you know who was the vice-president who had his seat, his

Page 23741

1 office, in the Lasva Valley, or rather, in Vitez?

2 A. You mean the government?

3 Q. Yes.

4 A. Well, I wouldn't know exactly, and I'm afraid -- shall I phrase it

5 differently? I might be wrong, but I think that Mr. Anto Valenta was the

6 deputy prime minister. Was it true or not, I don't know, but I think it

7 is because I'm not a party man. I was never a member of any party, so I

8 wouldn't know those things.

9 Q. Yes, I understand that, and Mr. Valenta is whom I meant.

10 A. So, one of the employees in Mr. Valenta's office had a meeting

11 with representatives of the authority from these municipalities, but I do

12 not see what this document has to do with wartime production.

13 Q. Yes, I understand. Will you please answer. I understand. You

14 already explained to the Court that this document had nothing do with

15 wartime production, let's resolve that. But I should like to ask you a

16 couple of questions about this document here. Sir --

17 A. Well, if I can answer, yes, I'm all yours.

18 Q. Sir, the first paragraph says that it was a meeting of civilian

19 authorities. Is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Tell us, please, was it something out of the ordinary or perhaps

22 quite ordinary for the civilian authorities of each and every municipality

23 in Central Bosnia, I mean the Lasva Valley in the first place, Novi

24 Travnik, Vitez, Busocava, help the military logistically? Was that a

25 regular thing, a common thing? I mean financially, logistically, defence,

Page 23742

1 and whatever.

2 A. Well, it is logical because that is what they are engaged in.

3 That is what they are in the municipalities, why a mayor. He's there to

4 look after his municipality.

5 Q. Mr. Anto Puljic, chief of defence of this, of administration of

6 Travnik, was he a civilian?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And if I understood you well, you, as somebody who was in the

9 wartime production, you were one of the civilians?

10 A. Well, if you can put it that way, yes, we were.

11 Q. And one more question, perhaps the last one to do with this

12 document, and the delivery of this document to Mr. Vice-president, as he

13 was the, vice-president of the Croatian community of Herceg-Bosna, as this

14 document says. Do you think, was Mr. Kordic a politician or a military

15 man?

16 A. As far as I know, he was a politician.

17 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you. I do not have any more

18 questions, Your Honours, thank you very much for allowing me to ask them.

19 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Re-examined by Mr. Kovacic:

21 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Mlakic, just to be on the safe side, my

22 friend asked you about a place called Vranica. Can you see it from the

23 place that you were on the hill above your house on the 16th of April?

24 Will you tell the Court if there -- is there also a locality called

25 Vranjska or Vraniska in the territory of Vitez? Is that how you

Page 23743

1 understood it or --

2 A. No. I understood that, that the gentleman was asking me about the

3 mountain called Vranica because there is also a mountain called Vranica,

4 and you cannot see it from our place, and that is the hill that I meant.

5 But where is this Vraniska.

6 Q. No, I'm sorry. This Vranica, is it to the south?

7 A. Well, you could say it's southeast of Vitez.

8 Q. So it is not Vranjska which is below Kruscica, if I can put it

9 that way?

10 A. No, more to the left.

11 Q. More to the left. So we're referring to a completely different

12 locality?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Thank you. And then you were asked about your exercise of some of

15 your rights, your status rights or your financial rights after the war,

16 and I should like to ask you a couple of questions about this. Would you

17 first explain it to me because there was a term that was used in a

18 document. What did you -- what do you understand by "rocket systems"?

19 A. Well, when you -- when one refers to rocket systems, then it is a

20 set -- a system made of several types of rockets, not only ground rockets

21 but guided missiles, and so and so forth. You know what a rocket system

22 is: Something that can cover a very wide and large area.

23 Q. Tell us, Mr. Mlakic -- or perhaps I am too fast.

24 You must have been familiar with the state of affairs with those

25 weapons, with what I as a layman would call artillery and the like. Now,

Page 23744

1 in those early days of the war in Vitez, or perhaps throughout 1993, was

2 there any weapon which could be categorised as a rocket system?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Thank you. I want to look again at a document. I'm referring to

5 your proposal for a rank which you were, which you were about to get; but

6 you never got it, did you?

7 A. No.

8 Q. Were you present when this document was prepared? Was it you who

9 suggested it be done?

10 A. No, I was not present there. It was Mr. Marko Puljic who drew up

11 minutes and then took it down to the defence office, but I did not

12 participate in this.

13 Q. But did you ever see this document before?

14 A. No. Today is the first time that I see this document.

15 Q. Did anyone ever ask you if you agreed with the content in which

16 all this is listed, your career is listed?

17 A. Yeah. I knew about the document, about the existence of the

18 document, but I never saw it, and nobody ever asked me. The only thing I

19 was asked was whether I would agree to be appointed Captain.

20 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Maybe just for the record, we're

21 referring to document 2487 which was produced before.

22 Q. So, the war was over or, rather, was drawing to the end. The

23 wartime production involved how many men, roughly?

24 A. At the outset, about 260 employees.

25 Q. And there is labour rights began to be settled, and shortly it

Page 23745

1 became quite clear --

2 MR. KOVACIC: If you will allow me just a little to shorten the

3 story, and please, if the Judges would just give me a sign, I will stop,

4 just to come to the point.


6 MR. KOVACIC: I will be very careful.

7 Q. [Interpretation] So people began to resolve their labour rights,

8 some regulations were adopted, came out; is that correct?

9 A. Yes, it is.

10 Q. And so it transpired shortly that for you, who are in the wartime

11 production, what did it turn out?

12 A. Well, it turned out that we did not participate anyway, that we

13 were nowhere, that the war time production didn't even exist.

14 Q. That is the category, employees in the wartime production.

15 A. Yes, yes.

16 Q. Now, people, you say 260 of you, as you tell us, did you feel

17 offended as human beings because you've also invested your sweat and your

18 effort into the defence of the valley, and nobody was recognising your

19 contribution?

20 A. Well, yes.

21 Q. Is it correct to say that at that time, politically speaking, a

22 solution was being sought for the regulation of the status of all those

23 employed in wartime production?

24 A. Yes, quite so.

25 Q. And one -- but only one of the documents relative to that was the

Page 23746

1 document that was shown you before?

2 A. Yes, but all men from wartime production had such a document.

3 Q. So not only you?

4 A. All 260 went to all sorts of brigades in order to resolve their

5 status. Not only myself, everybody down to the last one. There isn't a

6 single man who is on the wartime production roster.

7 Q. Mr. Mlakic, from your point of view, you know what you invested,

8 what you did during the war, and what are the rights that you should

9 enjoy. Is it correct to say that from the ethical point of view, you

10 simply tried to get, by the way of this document, what you believed that

11 you were entitled to in view of what you had invested?

12 A. We didn't do it for ourselves, but for the sake of 260 men who

13 happened to be with us in this wartime production. So it wasn't only that

14 Franjo Mlakic asked for something or Marko Lujic asked something for

15 themselves; we were trying to find a solution for all 260 men.

16 Q. And in that sense, you have no problems with your conscience, with

17 your moral?

18 A. No, I don't.

19 Q. And you will agree that what it says here about all these valour

20 and all the merits that you have, that it's not correct?

21 A. Well, no, of course it was a bit done up.

22 Q. Thank you very much. I think we can move on to another subject.

23 A great deal was said here, but you never were given the

24 opportunity to explain it. The factory, the Slavko Rodic Plant in

25 Gorazde, in Foca and so on, shall I ask you a couple of questions about

Page 23747












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 23748

1 this so that everything is accorded its own time and place.

2 Is it -- all that business that you did regarding all those goods,

3 their destinations and all those localities, did all this happen at a time

4 when cooperation between the BH army and HVO was at its peak and when they

5 both were engaged in the defence against the JNA and the ARS?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And specifically places like Rogoj and Foca and Gorazde at that

8 time were controlled by the BH army, weren't they?

9 A. Foca, not of late; Gorazde was encircled, and I entered -- circled

10 Gorazde three times to deliver them this materiel and cigarettes and

11 whatever else.

12 Q. To whom in Gorazde?

13 A. To Pobjeda in Gorazde. That is factory in Gorazde, because I

14 cooperated with the factory.

15 Q. And who had the control, whose side?

16 A. The BH army.

17 Q. So you took steps to deliver to the BH army some goods that they

18 needed ten days prior to the outbreak of the conflict. Why did you invest

19 those efforts? What was your motive to give those goods to the BH army?

20 THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, we didn't hear the witness. Could

21 the witness repeat his answer, please.

22 A. Because we had a common enemy, and we thought that jointly we

23 could defend ourselves more successfully.

24 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Could you repeat your motive, please, sir.

Page 23749

1 THE INTERPRETER: "My patriotism," is the answer.

2 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. In view of the fact that you were familiar with Marko Lujic, he

4 had a son, didn't he?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And his son's name is Mario?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. So I won't tire you with that. We will need that later.

9 JUDGE MAY: Are you going to be very much longer?

10 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, if I'm not wrong, perhaps ten minutes

11 or so, maybe fifteen minutes. Surely not more than that.

12 JUDGE MAY: Surely not. We'll adjourn now. We'll sit again at 25

13 to 3.00.

14 Mr. Mlakic, would you be back then. Please don't talk to anybody

15 about your evidence during the adjournment until it's over, and that does

16 include members of the Defence team.

17 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.06 p.m.









Page 23750

1 --- On resuming at 2.37 p.m.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Kovacic. Ten minutes, no more.

3 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you, Your Honour. I hope I will.

4 Q. Let us just finish the subject we started concerning the

5 destinations of the BH army, where you had contacts in terms of weapons

6 supplies. Actually, there was an important institution of the BH army in

7 Visoko, important for Bosnia. Do you know that?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Which institution was this?

10 A. The logistics base.

11 Q. So this logistics base, that was the main logistics base of the BH

12 army for that part of Bosnia; is that correct?

13 A. As far as I know, yes.

14 Q. You were there a few times, weren't you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Since you've been going there, did you get to meet an officer

17 named Lemes?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you say in two words who he was and why he was there?

20 A. He was the main logistics man, actually in charge of production

21 and armaments, military equipment, for the BH army.

22 Q. Thank you. Just a moment to go back to document Z2847, where you

23 were proposed to become an officer. You said at the end that you did not

24 manage to achieve what you had set out to achieve with that document.

25 A. No.

Page 23751

1 Q. So you did not get an officer's rank?

2 A. No, I did not.

3 Q. That is to say that in the -- or rather, does that mean that as

4 concerns future procedure with these documents, some body did not wish to

5 receive this document?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Do you know which body was supposed to decide about this?

8 A. I don't know, but I know it went to Mostar.

9 Q. So it was within the HR HB?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. A document was shown to you here. Let's not waste any

12 time. I'm just going to mention the number, Z1220.2. That is Skopljak's

13 report from the 28th of September, 1993. Did you ever see that document

14 before?

15 A. No. This is the first time.

16 Q. Did you perhaps help Skopljak write this report?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did you perhaps give him some data through your papers that he

19 cross-referenced then?

20 A. No, I personally did not.

21 Q. Thank you. In order to be as brief as possible, we did not go

22 into certain details during the examination-in-chief, and this led to a

23 series of questions from the Prosecutor. Mr. Mlakic, isn't it true that

24 when the defence office, the municipal defence office, started organising

25 war production, that there was a competition in terms of who would be in

Page 23752

1 charge of war production within the SPS? Would it be the municipal

2 government or a higher level of power in the HZ HB? Were you aware of

3 that?

4 A. Yes, I was aware of that competition.

5 Q. You, who were some kind of top people in this production, did you

6 understand that one side definitely took over control over this work?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And which side was this?

9 A. The defence office.

10 Q. In terms of hierarchy, was it higher or lower than the municipal

11 defence office?

12 A. It was higher. It was the department for all of Central Bosnia.

13 Q. Oh, you mean for the entire region of Central Bosnia?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. From that moment onwards, you did not communicate with the

16 municipal authorities any longer, did you?

17 A. No. No. Not as far as the military part of production is

18 concerned, that is to say, that kind of equipment.

19 Q. Yes. We're only talking about that part. That's the only part

20 that we're interested in. Tell me, please: Do you remember that from

21 that moment onwards, that is to say, from the beginning of August, that at

22 any point in time the people from the municipal defence office asked you

23 for anything?

24 A. They came to ask, but we sent them to logistics for Central

25 Bosnia.

Page 23753

1 Q. So those channels of communication, distribution that were

2 envisaged; is that right?

3 A. Yes, that's right.

4 Q. And the mentioned Franjo Sliskovic, the chief of logistics at the

5 level of the Operative Zone, was the main link in that chain; is that

6 right?

7 A. Yes, that's right.

8 Q. In document Z1246.1, that is the report that you looked at as

9 well. Did you see that MRUD is an abbreviation that was used there? What

10 is an MRUD? What does it mean?

11 A. That is a mine with guided action.

12 Q. You are an expert. Is this an offensive or a defensive weapon?

13 A. It is a purely defensive weapon, and it is usually put near the

14 operator, and it does not have a long range. Well, it depends from one --

15 from 50 metres to 100 metres.

16 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, how can a mine be offensive or defensive?

17 MR. KOVACIC: I don't know, Your Honour, I'm not a soldier. That

18 is why I asked the witness to explain it.

19 JUDGE MAY: You asked the question, "you are an expert. Is this

20 an offensive or a defensive weapon?" What does it mean?

21 MR. KOVACIC: I could ask him to explain.

22 JUDGE MAY: Well, no, I'm asking you. You asked, you asked the

23 question. What does the question mean?

24 MR. KOVACIC: I was perhaps not precise enough. The idea was that

25 some -- what I, as a matter, think offensive weapon, something you can hit

Page 23754

1 somebody, or defensive weapon is something you are trying to protect

2 yourself, like that MRUD. It has no other purpose except to put it in

3 front of your trenches or whatever it is.

4 JUDGE MAY: What's an offensive mine?

5 MR. KOVACIC: Something which you fire in another, in another

6 party area.

7 JUDGE MAY: We're obviously totally at cross-purposes. I thought

8 a mine was something you put in the ground and somebody stepped on, not

9 something that was fired.

10 MR. KOVACIC: Maybe just one question to clear up this --

11 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

12 MR. KOVACIC: -- because for this one, that's what I understood

13 from the soldiers, what it is.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

15 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. This MRUD, where is it used specifically?

17 A. In front of trenches.

18 Q. How far away from a trench is it placed approximately?

19 A. Well, it depends. 20 to 30 metres.

20 Q. Is it activated from the trench?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. That is to say that it helps the soldiers who are in the trench to

23 defend themselves if somebody is attacking their trench?

24 A. Precisely.

25 Q. This mine, this kind of mine or this mine, is it used when

Page 23755

1 soldiers are moving ahead, when they are taking a certain area?

2 A. A MRUD cannot be used in that way.

3 Q. Thank you.

4 A. It is used as an obstacle only.

5 Q. I would like to move on to something else. These three tonnes or

6 one tonne of gunpowder were referred to here. I want to ask you more

7 specifically, is it correct or do you know or did you know that in Ploce,

8 and Ploce is a harbour in the republic of Croatia and Central Bosnia, and

9 the SPS primarily used that harbour, is it true there was a permanent

10 warehouse of the SPS there before the war as well?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Is it correct that warehouse was there because the SPS was a

13 manufacturer of gunpowder and some other products, and they sold these

14 products of theirs in the world market?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And these products for the most part were loaded onto ships in

17 Ploce; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, that is correct.

19 Q. That warehouse with the goods that were there at that moment

20 happened to be there when the war broke out in Croatia; is that correct?

21 A. Yes, exactly.

22 Q. Are you familiar with Ploce yourself? Were you there in the

23 harbour?

24 A. I was there but not in the warehouse.

25 Q. Were there other warehouses there, like of corn and things like

Page 23756

1 that?

2 A. Well, I can't really say.

3 Q. When the war broke out in Croatia, the fact is that the SPS lost

4 these goods?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. The fact is that Croatia or some Croatian agencies, Croatian

7 authorities took these commodities?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Did you hear about that?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Do you know anything about the following: In 1992 and up to a few

12 weeks before the conflict when you exchanged goods, as you said to us,

13 together with the BH army, that the value of the goods that happened to be

14 in Croatia and those warehouses in Ploce, the value was taken into

15 account, and that you were given a counter-value in terms of everything

16 that you had in Bosnia?

17 A. I did not know that.

18 Q. Oh, you did not know that. Just one more question in relation to

19 this. To the best of your knowledge, all the information that you heard,

20 even rumours from those circles, the people that you met in this

21 connection, when did cooperation stop between the BH army and the HVO in

22 terms of supplies of materiel and the manufacturing of materiel in the war

23 against the JNA?

24 A. I had the last exchange, I can't say now with certainty, but it

25 was certainly about ten days before the conflict.

Page 23757

1 Q. This is a transaction that you took part in personally?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. Do you allow for the possibility of the existence of many other

4 chains and contacts through which this happened?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Could you repeat your question [sic] for the transcript?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Do you know whether others stopped before you or after you?

9 A. No, I don't know.

10 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further

11 questions.

12 A. Thank you.

13 JUDGE MAY: Thank you, Mr. Mlakic. That concludes your evidence.

14 Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are

15 free to go.

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

17 [The witness withdrew]

18 JUDGE MAY: We'll have the next witness.

19 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour. Our next

20 witness is Mr. Zoran Jukic.

21 [The witness entered court]

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes, let the witness take the declaration.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

24 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


Page 23758

1 [Witness answered through interpreter]

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, if you'd like to take a seat.

3 Examined by Mr. Mikulicic:

4 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Jukic. On behalf of Mr. Cerkez's defence

6 team, I have several questions for you, and will you please answer them to

7 the best of your recollection. At the same time, please wait with your

8 answer until my question has been translated so that we can facilitate the

9 task of the interpreters.

10 Mr. Jukic, for the record, will you give us your name and your

11 birth?

12 A. My name is Zoran Jukic. I was born on the 26th of June, 1963, in

13 Vitez, in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

14 Q. And you're still living in the area -- to be more precise, in the

15 village of Nadioci -- don't you?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. You are married and you are the father of three children?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Their ages between 3 and 9?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. By occupation you are a radio and television technician?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You graduated from secondary school and specialised in

24 broadcasting equipment?

25 A. Yes.

Page 23759

1 Q. You served in the former JNA in Nis and Titograd, today Podgorica

2 in Montenegro, didn't you?

3 A. I did.

4 Q. That was in 1981, and you did not acquire any military rank?

5 A. That is correct.

6 Q. Before the war in Bosnia, you lived in Vitez and you worked in

7 Zenica as a broadcasting technician?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You are now a private businessman and you are again providing

10 services in accordance with your qualifications?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Mr. Jukic, I should like to ask you to look back to the events of

13 the end of 1992 -- to be more precise, December -- when the Stjepan

14 Tomasevic Brigade was established. Tell us, please: Did you join in that

15 brigade? If you did, in what capacity?

16 A. By order, I was appointed, on the 15th of December, as a

17 communications officer attached to the 2nd Battalion, which belonged to

18 Vitez municipality within this brigade.

19 Q. What was your duty as a communications expert in Stjepan

20 Tomasevic?

21 A. Mostly it was to train one of the soldiers when our units were

22 going towards the army of Republika Srpska, at that time, Kamenjas,

23 Mravinjac, Slatka voda.

24 Q. So at that time the Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade or, more precisely,

25 the 2nd Battalion that you belonged to, were on the front line against the

Page 23760

1 JNA and the VRS?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you went to the front line and made sure that the

4 communications among the troops were functioning properly?

5 A. Yes. They were wire communications mostly.

6 Q. How frequently did you tour the front lines? Did you go

7 frequently?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Who was your commander in the military sense?

10 A. In the military chain of command, my commander was the commander

11 of the 2nd Battalion, Anto Bertovic. And by position, the chief of

12 communication in Stjepan Tomasevic, that is Vladica Babic.

13 Q. Are you aware, Mr. Jukic, that in that part of the front line,

14 soldiers took turns between Novi Travnik and Vitez?

15 A. Yes, only I'm not quite sure where the borderline was between us.

16 Q. So the troops would come to the front line, stay there for a

17 while, and after that they would go back to their place of birth and

18 return to their jobs?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Tell us, as a professional: Where did the communications

21 equipment come from that the brigade used?

22 A. It cannot be really called equipment. We were mostly supplied

23 from Slimena, which was a warehouse of the former JNA, so we mainly used

24 those telephones. And they too were in short supply, so then we used

25 regular household telephones and adapted them to our purposes. As for

Page 23761

1 radio transmitters, we didn't have any real ones except two amateur radio

2 stations. We did more harm than good, in my opinion.

3 Q. So in your assessment, this communications equipment was of a very

4 poor quality?

5 A. Yes. One could say it was even worse than that.

6 Q. And so you spent some time there, as a member of the Stjepan

7 Tomasevic Brigade, up until the time the Viteska Brigade was formed?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And this was in mid-March 1993?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You continued with the same activities, but you were now a member

12 of the Vitez Brigade and not of the Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade?

13 A. Yes. I became a signalsman of the 1st Battalion of the Vitez

14 Brigade.

15 Q. And your commander remained Anto Bertovic, the same person who was

16 in the Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Tell me, how did you communicate with the local radio amateur club

19 in Vitez? Did you get any equipment from them?

20 A. Yes, some, but they didn't have too much themselves.

21 Q. At the time, and we are talking about the second half of March

22 1993, the main task of the Vitez Brigade was equal to the task of the

23 Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade, was it not?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And you continued engaging in the same activities and you visited

Page 23762

1 the front line towards the JNA and the Bosnian Serbs?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you did this in the month of March, didn't you?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Your visits to the front line, did you go there freely or did you

6 have difficulties going there to inspect the radio equipment or for some

7 other purpose?

8 A. I went there sometimes twice a week. There were no radio

9 transmitters there, because they couldn't be used, but I went for another

10 reason, most frequently to change the batteries, because the soldiers who

11 came there would take radio transmitters with them and they would take out

12 the batteries from the telephones to use them on the radios.

13 Q. So those were the problems you had in your professional

14 activities, but did you have any difficulties provoked by the BiH army

15 that used to stop you when you went there?

16 A. Yes, quite frequently.

17 Q. And then in that case, you would have to compile a report about an

18 incident?

19 A. Yes, something I did on a regular basis.

20 Q. Mr. Jukic, I will show you a report dated the 22nd and 23rd of

21 March, 1993, so I should like to ask you to identify it.

22 THE REGISTRAR: The document will be marked D96/2.

23 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Mr. Jukic, is this a report compiled by you?

25 A. Yes.

Page 23763












12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French

13 and English transcripts.













Page 23764

1 Q. And we see from the contents that it was compiled in connection

2 with your assignment at the position of Slatka voda near Novi Travnik?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. For the dates of the 22nd, 23rd of March, 1993?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Which means that at that time the Vitez Brigade had its men, its

7 shift, at positions near Novi Travnik, facing the JNA?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Mr. Jukic, on the 16th of April, 1993, armed activities escalated

10 in Vitez. Tell me, please, briefly, what you were doing that day, where

11 you were, and what you remember about it.

12 A. On the 16th of April, 1993, around 5.30 a.m., I was awakened by a

13 very powerful explosion. So I woke up, I went outside, left my house. As

14 the village is quite densely populated and the other locals had got up too

15 and we were confused. We didn't know what was happening.

16 Q. You're talking about the village of Nadioci, are you not?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Please continue.

19 A. And so we got together near the main road. We simply didn't

20 know. We were confused as to what was going on.

21 Q. I apologise for interrupting you. You said you didn't know what

22 was happening.

23 A. We did not.

24 Q. But at the time you were a soldier of the Vitez Brigade, weren't

25 you?

Page 23765

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Didn't anyone, as a member of the Vitez Brigade, inform you in

3 advance that there would be an armed conflict?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Please proceed.

6 A. And since the sound was coming from the direction of Vitez, and we

7 already had those village guards set up, which were some kind of

8 protection of the village, a couple of us went towards a locality called

9 Krc. I was one of them. Some others went in another direction and

10 another group stayed on the main road.

11 Q. Very well. Thank you. You mentioned the location of Krc. It's a

12 hill overlooking your village, is it not?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you climbed on that hill to see what was happening in the

15 surroundings?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Your village of Nadioci, which is in a valley, from that village

18 there is no direct view of the village of Ahmici, is there?

19 A. That is correct. No, there isn't.

20 Q. But from the Krc hill that you climbed on, Ahmici can be seen?

21 A. Yes, it can.

22 Q. What did you see then in the area of the village of Ahmici?

23 A. At that point in time we could see houses burning and strong

24 infantry fire could be heard, so we thought that a conflict was going on.

25 Q. So you observed this from a distance of about what, as the crow

Page 23766

1 flies?

2 A. Roughly two kilometres as the crow flies.

3 Q. And did anything happen then?

4 A. Yes. While we were observing this, we went to a clearing so as to

5 have a better view. We were shot at from the direction of Barin gaj.

6 Q. Tell us: This location called Barin gaj, which armed forces had

7 control of that location?

8 A. It could only have been the BH army.

9 Q. And then you went back to your village to take shelter from the

10 fire?

11 A. Yes. We went back to the village to tell them what was going on,

12 because everyone was disturbed, alarmed.

13 Q. And what happened then?

14 A. After that we organised ourselves and formed a couple of scouting

15 groups, and so we went to secure the access roads so that should any

16 military attack be launched against us, we could evacuate the village on

17 time.

18 Q. When you say "we," you mean you as the inhabitants of the village

19 of Nadioci?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So you became a reconnaissance group to report to the village

22 should an attack occur?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. So that is when the so-called village guards were formed?

25 A. Yes.

Page 23767

1 Q. During the next few days, those village guards gradually started

2 joining the Vitez Brigade; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Which unit of the Vitez Brigade?

5 A. The 1st Battalion, the 3rd Company.

6 Q. You too were a member of the 1st Battalion, 3rd Company, were you

7 not?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Who was your direct commander?

10 A. My immediate commander was the late Captain Slavko Papic.

11 Q. And the commander of the battalion was Anto Bertovic, as you have

12 said.

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. What did you personally do those couple of days after the conflict

15 broke out? What was your assignment?

16 A. Our assignment mostly was to protect the village if at all

17 possible; if not, then to evacuate it in due course.

18 Q. Did you do that -- what were you personally doing?

19 A. I was a soldier in one of those observation posts. I can't say

20 trenches because we didn't have them at that time.

21 Q. Did you have occasion to use your professional knowledge?

22 A. Yes, towards the middle of the conflict.

23 Q. Can you, can you describe that in a couple of sentences?

24 A. Yes. As we were the most forward line, we had the largest number

25 of attacks, so I used my own private radio station to thwart some of those

Page 23768

1 attacks and to intercept conversations between signalmans of the BiH army.

2 Q. And at that position above your village of Nadioci is where you

3 stayed virtually throughout the war?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Did the other inhabitants of your village of Nadioci also remain

6 there as the members of the 1st Battalion of the Vitez Brigade?

7 A. Yes.

8 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] We're now going on to point -- a

9 point for which I would request a private session if possible, please.

10 [Private session]

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 23769

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 [Open session]

18 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Mr. Jukic, a subject that we touched upon briefly already and that

20 is your attendance at the front line during the Stjepan Tomasevic of March

21 brigade, subsequently Viteska Brigade, and I'm referring to the front on

22 Vlasic. What do you know what was the function of the motel at Kruscica?

23 A. The function of the motel at Kruscica was to prepare those

24 soldiers who were coming from the front villages to give them some

25 weapons. Well, by and large preparation to tell them what was lying in

Page 23770

1 store for them at that front line.

2 Q. Is it true that there was a checkpoint at the exit from Kruscica

3 manned by the BH?

4 A. Yes, it was called Fatina Vodica.

5 Q. And did you ever have any problems when you would pass with your

6 shift towards Vlasic through the checkpoint?

7 A. The checkpoint which I just mentioned, the Fatina Vodica, is on

8 the opposite side, place, and to face the army of Republicka Srpska, we

9 had to go through Novi Travnik, and the checkpoint was on Kamenjas Street.

10 Q. And that one was also manned by the BH army?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And at that checkpoint did you ever have any problems? Would --

13 at times did they stop you, take some of your equipment and the like, some

14 of your gear?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. And did you also have to write a report on what had happened?

17 A. Oh, yes. We were bound to do that.

18 Q. Mr. Jukic, I will show you now two such reports, and we'll invite

19 you to comment on them.

20 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Could the usher please help us

21 distribute the documents that I already gave the registry.

22 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for the counsel, please.

23 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Mr. Jukic, will you please look at this report dated 26th of

25 January, 1993, and tell us if you are the person signed here?

Page 23771

1 A. Yes, I am.

2 Q. And the report shows that on that day, that is, the 26th of

3 January, 1993, you and your driver were stopped by the BH army, and on

4 that occasion your radio equipment was seized and the weapons that the

5 driver had?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And that it happened near Fatina Vodica at Kruscica.

8 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Could we have the number please.

9 THE REGISTRAR: The document will be marked D97/2.

10 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Will you now look at the second document which is the report of

12 the next day, that is, the 27th January, and will you please pay attention

13 to item 5, which is page 3 in Croatian.

14 MR. MIKULICIC: Paragraph 5 in English version.

15 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Is this part of the same event in the document 27/2 [sic], or is

17 it perhaps a different incident?

18 A. No, no, no, it's the same incident.

19 Q. Very well, thank you.

20 Now, tell me, Witness Jukic, if members of the BH army knew that

21 you were going to the defence line against the JNA and the Bosnian Serb

22 army?

23 A. Yes, they knew.

24 Q. And yet they seized your weapons and equipment?

25 A. Yes.

Page 23772

1 Q. And how did they behave? How did they treat you on that occasion?

2 A. Well, they were cursing at us, abusing us verbally, and harassed

3 us generally.

4 Q. Did they perhaps tell you why they were doing that?

5 A. No.

6 MR. MIKULICIC: Just for the record, Your Honours, the previous

7 document was marked 97/2, and it's written in the record 27/2.

8 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Where have we got to? We've got two

9 documents, one headed "Report For the 26th of January." That apparently

10 is D97/2. I don't think we've got a number for the next one. We'll have

11 a number for it. It's marked "Report."

12 THE REGISTRAR: Next document will be marked D98/2.

13 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Very well. Mr. Jukic, to bring this examination to a close, I

15 should like to ask you to help us regarding the technical possibilities

16 for audio surveillance of radio equipment. In lay terms, did the BH army

17 have better equipment or worse equipment than the HVO?

18 A. I had no means of knowing that, but I can presume that they must

19 have had much better equipment than we -- than the Viteska Brigade.

20 Q. And you were quite aware of that?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In other words, the BH army could --

23 JUDGE MAY: No, wait a minute. These are controversial matters,

24 Mr. Mikulicic, and you shouldn't lead. You can ask the witness what he

25 knows about the BH army equipment, and he can tell us, but don't put words

Page 23773

1 into his mouth, please.

2 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Very well. I shall do so, Your

3 Honours. I apologise.

4 Q. My question, Mr. Jukic, was, how do you know that the BH army had

5 better, high-grade radio equipment than the HVO?

6 A. As somebody who was trained as a broadcasting technician, I went

7 to the Travnik maintenance company, and it was one of the highest ranking

8 in the former Yugoslavia in terms of the equipment they used, so I knew

9 what kind of equipment they had for testing and maintenance, and that part

10 remained under their control in their territory.

11 Q. You mean there it was ABH [sic], in BH's territory?

12 A. Yes, yes.

13 Q. So, aware of that fact, and you are saying that the HVO was aware

14 of that. Did HVO soldiers when communicating abide by the rules on

15 confidentiality?

16 A. By and large.

17 Q. And in their communication, did these men and officers of the HVO

18 use their own names or code names?

19 A. Code names.

20 Q. And that is what you know about the subject, is it?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Mr. Jukic, thank you very much for your answers. I do not have

23 any further questions for you.

24 MR. SAYERS: No questions from Mr. Kordic, Your Honour.

25 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice:

Page 23774


2 Q. I think you take the view, Mr. Jukic, that each side was capable

3 of tapping the other's telephone connections; is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. You will presumably allow for the reality that different means of

6 mobile communications existed, including field telephones, that is, I

7 think military telephones, but also ordinary mobile telephones?

8 A. I am not aware that there are any ordinary mobile telephones.

9 Q. Well, we've had quite a lot of evidence of people speaking of

10 things like Motorolas, but I think they're probably walkie-talkies. Does

11 the reference to something called a Motorola make sense to you?

12 A. Yeah, sure. Radio stations, that is amateur radio stations, they

13 were of the Motorola type.

14 Q. And that is the sort of thing that somebody can carry in their

15 hand and walk around with, presumably?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And these pieces of equipment were used by some of the senior

18 soldiers, certainly, to your knowledge?

19 A. Could you rephrase it? When you say senior soldiers, what do you

20 mean by that?

21 Q. Well, people of the level of Blaskic or Cerkez, people like that?

22 A. I wouldn't really be able to answer that question.

23 Q. But it may be helpful because of the growth of mobile telephones

24 with proprietary names like Motorola, just to make sure that we know what

25 you're speaking with when you speak of a Motorola, what size of equipment

Page 23775

1 are you speaking of, if you could help us? Demonstrate or describe as you

2 prefer.

3 A. Well, you see, I mentioned Motorola because Motorola made a

4 Motorola product, but I did not see that Motorola. And what you're asking

5 me about Blaskic and Kordic, I am not in a position to know such things.

6 JUDGE MAY: It doesn't matter about them for a minute. Just help

7 us about the Motorola. You see, we've had references to Motorolas in the

8 case, and we want to know what it means. Can you describe a Motorola to

9 us?

10 A. Well, you see, a Motorola -- well, perhaps it's the wrong term for

11 it because I do not know what you mean when you refer to Motorola. I

12 know --

13 JUDGE MAY: Well, we've had witnesses who have been talking about

14 Motorolas as some form of communication. Do you know what it means, and

15 if you don't, say so. If you know what it means, tell us; if not, we'll

16 ask somebody else.

17 A. Well, a radio station was a Motorola, regardless of whether it was

18 a trademark or other type of radio station, that is what I tried to say.

19 I mean, he called, he called every radio station a Motorola.

20 JUDGE MAY: When you talk about a radio station, is it something

21 that someone could carry about with them? To us a radio station suggests

22 something which is static, a building or something of this sort.

23 A. That's how we called a radio device, broadcasting device which is

24 smaller and which is portable.

25 JUDGE MAY: Counsel used the expression walkie-talkie. Does that

Page 23776

1 mean anything to you?

2 A. It does.

3 JUDGE MAY: And would that describe a Motorola?

4 A. Quite so.

5 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

6 A. It was a pleasure.


8 Q. The short reality so far as, say, the period of time April 1993

9 and onwards is concerned, is this: Each side could listen to the other,

10 each side did its best to stop the other listening; correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And there was no way successfully of blocking completely one's

13 messages from the other side. You did your best, but you couldn't

14 necessarily block everything?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. My understanding of your own history is that you were first

17 involved in any brigade only in December 1992; is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. In which case I'm wanting your help very briefly, in view of your

20 experience on this topic, with the development of the communications

21 system in the HVO. Coming as you did from Nadioci, and only joining the

22 Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade in December 1992, were you aware of any orders

23 that had gone out in the summer of 1992 to use, for example, business

24 organisations, telephone services, for the HVO? Were you aware of that

25 sort of order and that sort of practice?

Page 23777

1 A. I did not know about that order, but there was such practice.

2 MR. NICE: Then, Your Honour, might I see if this document really

3 needs to be produced, in light of the witness's concession -- not

4 concession; answer. It's not a concession.

5 Q. Perhaps you'll just have a look at this. 190, please. I quite

6 accept that this, Mr. Jukic, is before your time and in a sense not

7 necessarily your immediate area, but if you'd help us with it.

8 It comes from the HVO in August 1992 and is headed "The

9 establishment of telephone communications in Central Bosnia." And in an

10 attempt to contribute to overall defence efforts and in accordance with

11 tasks assigned to ensure the quickest possible elimination of the effects

12 of enemy aggression on the telephone system, and in accordance with

13 existing capacities, the following order is made. I don't think I need

14 trouble to read out 1, 2, 3, or 4, but number 5 says that HVO staffs,

15 business organisations that serves the needs of defence, the municipal

16 leadership and the PT organisation serving the needs of the population

17 shall have priority in receiving telephone numbers.

18 Now, was that practice still in operation when you joined up in

19 December?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Then number 6 says that the administrators of the telephone

22 organisations are responsible for allocating telephone numbers, in

23 agreement with the HVO and the municipal leaderships; correct? Was that

24 also in operation at the time that you took over -- or not took

25 over -- you were joined up?

Page 23778

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. We can read, if we need to, ourselves the other provisions, but

3 what it amounted to is that the HVO had effectively taken over, for its

4 priority use, the telephone system; correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you. Then if you'd help us, please, with another short

7 document, 222, please. It's an existing document.

8 MR. NICE: Sorry. There's one here for the ELMO, if it's

9 helpful. And again if the original can go to the witness, and it's page 3

10 of the English, after we look at the title sheet, please.

11 Q. The title sheet makes it clear -- this again predates your joining

12 up. It's the 20th of September and it's Vitez. And it's headed "Tasks of

13 the Central Bosnia Command," and "on the basis of clear need for more

14 expeditious work," and so on.

15 Then if we go straight to page 3 and item 17, we can see that

16 there was the intention then, expressed by Colonel Blaskic, to organise

17 and put into use a full communications centre to find the means of

18 preparing radio packets and obtain and begin operating a fax.

19 Now, there's three that's there, perhaps four. From what you saw

20 when you got there, had this order been put into effect, please?

21 A. I was the signalsman in the 1st Battalion, so with regard to this

22 particular paragraph, I had no knowledge of it whatsoever, nor could I

23 have.

24 Q. All right. Perhaps you can help us with just a couple of bits of

25 it maybe. Does the phrase "full communications centre" mean anything to

Page 23779

1 you from your position within a brigade, or not?

2 A. No.

3 Q. We've heard quite a lot about packet communications. Can you

4 explain those to us so that we can understand it?

5 A. It would be hard for me to explain it to you. It would have to be

6 someone who was more knowledgeable about radio packets.

7 Q. Did you operate a packet system yourself?

8 A. I? Never.

9 Q. Did you see it operated by others?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Am I right in this? And don't assume I am, because I'm wanting

12 your help. But a packet system does involve the receipt of a piece of

13 paper or something that can be converted into a piece of paper at one end,

14 but it involves something being sent by radio from the other end; is that

15 correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So to that degree, it's similar to a fax, but it doesn't rely, as

18 perhaps a fax sometimes does, on a land line; is that correct?

19 A. Probably.

20 JUDGE MAY: If you don't know, just say so. It may be that we

21 need some evidence.

22 MR. NICE: We may need some more on that from somewhere else, I

23 think. Very well. Next exhibit, very shortly, 287.2.

24 Q. Again, you may not be able to help with this, but you're the first

25 person dealing with these matters to come, so that I ask your assistance,

Page 23780

1 if you can give it. You say that you -- it's a document dated the 20th of

2 November of 1992, and it actually comes from Brigadier Petkovic, so it's a

3 very senior document. And it goes to the chief of communications of the

4 HVO Main Staff. But it does deal in the middle of the page with something

5 about packet communications, of which you'd seen, and about security. And

6 it suggests here staff commanders should designate a separate room for

7 working with packet communications, select persons to enter the room, and

8 those persons to be answerable.

9 When you saw packet communications being operated, was it done in

10 terms of a special room with some special security measures associated?

11 A. In which period?

12 Q. In the period any time from December 1992 to the end of -- well,

13 till April of 1993, I suppose, in light of your evidence.

14 A. At that time, no, I never saw it.

15 Q. Very well. Again, that will have to await someone else.

16 Were you aware whether the practices in your brigade, broadly

17 speaking, matched the practices in other brigades so far as communication

18 is concerned?

19 A. I'm sorry. I didn't -- I didn't understand the question.

20 Q. My mistake. The practices, the level of skills at communication

21 in your brigade, were those broadly similar to the levels of skills and

22 practices in other brigades?

23 A. I can't really say.

24 Q. Very well. Well, if I were to tell you -- and there are documents

25 that I can raise if necessary -- that in December of 1992 the Jure

Page 23781

1 Francetic Brigade was having training in radio communications, radio relay

2 communications, and other communications, do you recall whether there had

3 been similar training in your brigade?

4 A. No. No, there wasn't.

5 MR. NICE: That's 382.2. I needn't trouble the witness with it.

6 It's already in as an exhibit.

7 Q. What I'm going to suggest to you is that a lot of attention was

8 paid to communication. Would you accept that? As one would expect.

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And that well before the outbreak of the fighting in April 1993,

11 there had been training and so on to achieve as high a level of efficiency

12 as possible. Do you accept that there was some training in your brigade?

13 A. No, there wasn't any training.

14 Q. Can you give any --

15 A. As far as I know, there wasn't any.

16 Q. Can you give any explanation for why your brigade may have been

17 less fortunate than others in that respect?

18 A. Well, because our brigade at that time practically wasn't even a

19 brigade; it was a brigade on paper only.

20 Q. All right. Well, then again I shan't bother with 342.1, which is

21 another Jure Francetic Brigade document.

22 MR. NICE: Your Honour, just give me a minute. Likewise, I shan't

23 bother with 383.1, which is to a similar effect, elsewhere.

24 Q. Perhaps you would be good enough to look at 115.3. This is the

25 last document on this topic. This document comes after the outbreak of

Page 23782

1 fighting and is the 5th of August. And it comes from Travnik, signed by

2 Puljic. But it says this, in connection with a particular degree:

3 "As the regional communications centre of the Central Bosnia

4 Operative Zone, which is also in Vitez, has good quality equipment for

5 establishing connections with Mostar ..."

6 Now, you obviously were in Vitez from time to time, at the

7 headquarters. There was good quality equipment there, wasn't there?

8 A. I could not have known that. What it says here is probably from a

9 higher level. As member of a battalion, I could not come and see, for

10 example, the regional centre mentioned here of the Central Bosnia

11 Operative Zone. I never entered the place, so I have no idea what their

12 equipment was like.

13 Q. It may be that at your level you simply don't have, or even claim

14 to have, a knowledge of the overall communications system that was

15 operated by your brigade. Is that the position: You only know about what

16 happened very much at your level, at the soldier's level, and the local

17 command post?

18 A. No. I knew communications only at the level of communications

19 officer, and that is like a squad leader for signals attached to a

20 battalion.

21 Q. Very well. Then I can probably pass over most of the other

22 questions I was going to ask you on this topic. I'll just ask one or

23 two. We've had evidence in this case, you see, of visits to the Busovaca

24 telephone building. You'd have no knowledge of the communications

25 equipment there, would you?

Page 23783

1 A. No. I could not have known about it.

2 Q. The Hotel Vitez headquarters, did you ever go in there?

3 A. No.

4 Q. We've heard suggestions that there were land line connections

5 between Busovaca, and in particular, Mr. Kordic's base, and Vitez. Do you

6 know anything about that?

7 A. No, I really don't.

8 Q. Let's move on, then, to your own village. Just a few things about

9 that, please. You started off in 1992 by of course joining the Tomasevic

10 Brigade because that was the only brigade you could join to represent the

11 interests of Vitez; correct?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. As we know, that brigade changed into the Viteska Brigade,

14 effectively. Were you going home every night, or regularly, to Nadioci?

15 A. Yes. Yes. My working hours were from 8.00 to 4.00 p.m.

16 Q. So that we can just have from you a little help with the picture

17 in Nadioci, just a few things. Do you remember an incident in January of

18 1993 at the house of Ahmed Vehabovic?

19 A. Ahmed what?

20 Q. Vehabovic.

21 A. That is quite unknown to me.

22 Q. Well, it may be that there's a mistake in the evidence as it's

23 been recorded. Do you remember the occasion of somebody having a fire at

24 their house, their house being perhaps set on fire in January of 1993?

25 A. No. No. I don't know anything about that.

Page 23784

1 Q. Nadioci is a very small village, isn't it?

2 A. Well, you can't really say that. Nadioci is a medium-sized

3 village, consisting of two parts. That's what it's called: Lower Nadioci

4 and Upper Nadioci. I'm in Lower Nadioci, by the Zenica-Travnik main road,

5 or rather my house is by that road.

6 Q. Near the Bungalow?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Then of course in February there was the murder at Nadioci by the

9 man Bralo, wasn't there?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And it's right, isn't it, that Bralo may have been detained for a

12 short period of time, but he was allowed out afterwards?

13 A. I know that he had been detained.

14 Q. But only for a short period of time?

15 A. I don't know when he was released. I believe he was released for

16 the conflicts.

17 Q. Do you know who he was released by?

18 A. How could I know? I don't know. How could I know?

19 Q. From the village of Nadioci, was there a man by the name

20 of -- maybe many men by the name of Delic?

21 A. There are quite a few families in our village with the surname of

22 Delic.

23 Q. You'll be permitted, if I may forecast -- I can't guarantee, but

24 you'll be permitted to go into private session if any of these questions

25 require you to seek that. But you say you heard something about what

Page 23785

1 happened at Ahmici. Did you hear anything associated with the man Delic

2 from your village, or one of the men Delic from your village?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Now, you were down on the road, so you saw the activity of the

5 Jokers, didn't you?

6 A. Could you clarify that question for me?

7 Q. I was hoping you would be able to help us. But you saw the Jokers

8 come and go to the Bungalow?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Were you aware that there were soldiers in the Bungalow?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. What soldiers were they? Ordinary Viteska Brigade soldiers or

13 someone else?

14 A. No. They were not members of the Viteska Brigade. It was some

15 other unit.

16 Q. But when were you first aware of their being there?

17 A. Well, perhaps ten or fifteen days before the 16th of April.

18 Q. Roughly how many, if you could estimate their number?

19 A. Believe me, I don't know.

20 Q. Before the outbreak of fighting, there was no question of any

21 build-up of Mujahedin in your village, was there? It's not reported

22 anywhere. No question of that happening?

23 A. No.

24 Q. But was there the development of people from -- is it Varazdin?

25 Do you know the place called Varazdin, if I'm pronouncing it even remotely

Page 23786

1 correctly, in Croatia?

2 A. Yes. Yes.

3 Q. Were you aware, before the fighting, of the arrival of men in

4 black uniforms from that part of Croatia into your territory?

5 A. No. No one from there ever came to the area that I lived in. No

6 one from that area.

7 Q. By April of 1993 you were in what grouping? It's my mistake for

8 having missed your evidence in detail. You're now in the Viteska Brigade,

9 and in what part of it? What battalion? What company?

10 A. A member of the 1st Battalion of the 3rd Company.

11 Q. And you say that your commander was Slavko Papic, I think.

12 A. Yes, the late Slavko Papic.

13 Q. Had there been any change in company commanders between the 1st

14 Company and the 3rd Company or had Slavko Papic always been commander of

15 the 3rd Company?

16 A. Yes, Slavko was commander of the 3rd Company until he was killed

17 during a BH army attack against Kratine, against our position there.

18 Q. The companies were formed where, in Vitez? By which I mean where

19 did they meet when they were called for duty?

20 A. I didn't understand your question.

21 Q. When you had to report for duty, where did you go?

22 A. When? Could you explain, please? Could you tell me which duty?

23 Q. When you went for duty sometime in March of 1993, maybe you went

24 to different places. Just tell us: How were you called for duty? Where

25 did you go?

Page 23787

1 A. Believe me, I really did not understand what you are referring

2 to. In which period?

3 Q. March 1993, if you had to report for duty, where did you go?

4 A. What kind of task?

5 JUDGE MAY: If you had to go to the front line, if had you to go

6 to the front line. You say that you went for duty to the front line. Did

7 you report anywhere first or did you go straight up to the front line?

8 What did you do?

9 A. Well, you see, as a member of the 1st Battalion, at that time when

10 we went towards the army of Republika Srpska, I reported for work every

11 day, and that is when I was given tasks.

12 JUDGE MAY: Where did you report?

13 A. At the command of the 1st Battalion.

14 MR. NICE:

15 Q. And the command of the 1st Battalion was where?

16 A. At the Workers' Education Centre in Vitez.

17 Q. And just to complete this topic, this part of this topic, the

18 other battalions' headquarters -- or commands, rather, the other

19 headquarters' commands were also in Vitez?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. So that the companies were formed in Vitez. They weren't formed

22 on a local, geographical basis, were they?

23 A. It is my opinion that companies were formed just as you had put it

24 in that other question, at certain locations. So we, Nadioci, are the

25 last towards Busocava, so that was the 3rd Company.

Page 23788

1 Q. Perhaps you best would like to help me, please, with a document,

2 Exhibit 653. If you could have a look at that.

3 MR. NICE: Your Honour, while that's being produced, I'm confident

4 that I can finish within 10 minutes, if that would help.

5 Can I also add: I'm also confident, if there's only the one

6 witness that there is for tomorrow, though I have yet to see the witness's

7 summary, that evidence will not take very long, I don't think. But it may

8 well be, if the Chamber is enthusiastic for this, that some or all of

9 Friday's work could be brought forward, but that's for later

10 consideration.

11 JUDGE MAY: No, I think let's deal with that now. I think we

12 should do that. Immediately we finish with the witness tomorrow, we

13 should go on to the motions.

14 MR. NICE: Certainly. I mean, obviously we may not be immediately

15 as prepared for everything that we might have been, but we will, of

16 course, do everything we can to be absolutely up to date by tomorrow.

17 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps it will be helpful if we said we'll start --

18 it seems convenient to start with the Defence motions, three Defence

19 motions, which could be taken together. There are then various

20 administrative matters, which I mentioned on Monday, about exhibits. I

21 can't remember exactly what they are. And then there's a motion which the

22 Prosecution have filed recently.

23 MR. NICE: There are two motions, actually. There was the one

24 that was referred to on Monday and another one.

25 JUDGE MAY: Just one moment, just one moment. The Chamber would

Page 23789

1 wish if possible to finish the matter tomorrow, deal with everything.

2 MR. NICE: I rather thought that might be the case. We'll do what

3 we can.

4 Q. Could you just, please, look at this document. You see, this is a

5 document dated the 14th of April, and it relates to the Viteska Brigade,

6 and it says that it relates to the 1st Battalion, and it then says, "Lists

7 of personnel from the 1st Battalion positioned in the villages."

8 Now, when we look at the 3rd Company, which you say you were a

9 member of, it was headed by Ivica Drmic; when we look at the 1st Company

10 we see its commander was Slavko Papic. You feel quite sure that it was

11 the 3rd Company of which you were a member, or may there be some scope for

12 error?

13 A. There is an error.

14 Q. Well, it also records as to the 1st Company under Slavko Papic,

15 which may or may not relate to you, that there were 20 soldiers positioned

16 in Nadioci. Can you help us with that, please? You see, it doesn't say

17 "coming from," it doesn't say "living in"; it appears to say "positioned

18 in."

19 A. In my opinion, the reference is to the inhabitants of the village

20 who at any point in time can become soldiers.

21 Q. Well, I can understand that, that's why I asked you whether the

22 companies were simply formed in Vitez, or whether they were in any way

23 geographically based. And you seem to be accepting that they were simply

24 formed in Vitez so that there would be no particular need for all -- any

25 company's soldiers to come from, it might be five different villages. Is

Page 23790

1 the position that, is the position that there were soldiers on the 14th of

2 April ready for action in Nadioci?

3 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honour --


5 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] -- I really do not wish to

6 interrupt, but the implication of my learned friend from the Prosecution

7 is that this document shows that there were soldiers ready for action is

8 simply not correct. The witness has explained that these were military

9 conscripts from the village of Nadioci. This is not a document indicating

10 people ready for action, and I don't think that is proper.

11 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Mikulicic, it's a matter for the witness to answer

12 the question. The question which was asked is, is the position that there

13 were soldiers on the 14th of April ready for action in Nadioci. It's for

14 the witness to answer the question. No doubt he will.

15 MR. NICE:

16 Q. May I have an answer to that question, please.

17 A. In my opinion, there were no such soldiers for any kind of action.

18 Q. Very well.

19 MR. NICE: And Your Honour, I simply observe -- I'll deal with

20 that later, but I will mention it just when the witness is finished.

21 Q. Let's come, then, very briefly to the night of the 15th, 16th.

22 Your function as a communications officer within your company was, and I

23 don't mean this in any sense offensively, sufficiently low in rank that it

24 would be quite possible for the Viteska Brigade or parts of the Viteska

25 Brigade to be operational without your being called upon, correct?

Page 23791

1 A. It is possible, but I don't believe that.

2 Q. Do you know one way or another whether other parts of the Viteska

3 Brigade were operational on the night of the 15th, 16th, given that you

4 simply got up and went up the hill to see the fighting from a distance?

5 A. I don't know whether they were operational.

6 Q. You don't know anything about orders given at 1.00 in the morning

7 or about compositions of troops, if there were any, at 5.30 in the

8 morning, do you?

9 A. Believe me, I don't.

10 Q. And are you telling us that when you returned on the 15th, you

11 were wholly unaware of any buildup of soldiers at the bungalow?

12 A. Believe me that I didn't notice anything returning from work,

13 didn't notice any troops or any reinforcements.

14 MR. NICE: Thank you.

15 JUDGE MAY: Sorry, I missed it. When was it you returned from

16 work that previous evening, the 15th?

17 A. On the 15th, it was in the evening. It was at the end of my

18 regular working hours when I returned home after 1600 hours.

19 JUDGE MAY: And you noticed nothing unusual in Vitez; is that

20 right?

21 A. Yes, that is right.

22 JUDGE MAY: On the way between there and Nadioci?

23 A. No, I didn't notice anything unusual.

24 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

25 Re-examined by Mr. Mikulicic:

Page 23792

1 Q. [Interpretation] I only have a couple of questions, Mr. Jukic. A

2 subject was touched upon regarding the so-called Motorolas, and I would

3 like us to fully clarify this point. Is it correct that the name Motorola

4 was used among the people colloquially to refer to all kinds of mobile

5 radio transmitters?

6 A. Yes, that is what I tried to explain, but I think I didn't

7 manage.

8 Q. Thank you. As a professional, you know that Motorola is an

9 American company manufacturing radio equipment?

10 A. Yes, and very good-quality equipment.

11 Q. I think that you said that you didn't notice in your battalion

12 anyone having such a radio transmitter?

13 A. Believe me, I would have noticed if anyone had one.

14 Q. But there were certain mobile radio transmitters?

15 A. Yes. I had my own private one, a Kenwood.

16 Q. Is it true that such privately-owned amateur radio equipment have

17 a limited range?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Tell us specifically regarding your own Kenwood radio transmitter,

20 what was its range?

21 A. Roughly three to three and a half kilometres, if the visibility

22 was good, optical visibility. Its strength was very limited.

23 Q. Does that mean that the configuration of the terrain, hills and

24 valleys, limit the range of radio stations?

25 A. Indeed, they do.

Page 23793

1 Q. Very well. Mr. Jukic, you said that the 1st Battalion was

2 headquartered in the building of the Workers' Education Centre in Vitez.

3 Can you tell us with precision until when it was based there?

4 A. Until the 15th of April, 1993. After that, I didn't know. I

5 learnt later that the 1st Battalion was moved to the railway station at

6 Impregnacija.

7 Q. Do you know when other battalions were formed within the Vitez

8 Brigade?

9 A. Believe me, I do not.

10 Q. Mr. Jukic, by occupation, you are a signalsman and you maintain

11 communications equipment in a military unit?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. In your opinion, is communication equipment important for the

14 effective functioning of a military unit?

15 A. Yes. But I have to correct you, we didn't have any equipment. We

16 just had-old fashioned telephones, amateur radio transmitters, a couple

17 only, so we can't really talk about communications equipment.

18 Q. Very well. You've already told us that.

19 In your opinion and on the basis of your own experience, is it

20 necessary before any military operation to pay special attention to the

21 functioning of communications lines?

22 A. Yes. I think in all armies of the world, that is how it should

23 be.

24 Q. Prior, immediately prior to the outbreak of the conflict in Vitez

25 on the 16th of April, did anyone from the command of your battalion or

Page 23794

1 brigade require special inspection of communications equipment?

2 A. No, no one did that.

3 Q. Thank you very much, Mr. Jukic. I have no further questions.

4 JUDGE MAY: Thank you, Mr. Jukic. That concludes your evidence.

5 Thank you for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are

6 free to go.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

8 [The witness withdrew]

9 THE COURT: Mr. Nice, very rapidly, please.

10 MR. NICE: I'm going to say, I'm exploring this document

11 cautiously in the way I am, that's 653, because it does, in fact, feature

12 in the Blaskic judgement. Therefore, the question of judicially decided

13 facts may or may not arise. I'm proceeding cautiously, and there it is.

14 JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn now, half past nine tomorrow morning.

15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4:13 p.m., to

16 be reconvened on Thursday the 3rd day of August,

17 2000, at 9.30 a.m.