Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 27024

1 Thursday, 16 November 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The witness entered court]

4 [The accused entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Sayers.

7 MR. SAYERS: Thank you, Mr. President. One small matter before we

8 begin. Apparently Exhibit Z1198.5 was in the bundle of exhibits that were

9 returned to the Prosecution, Mr. President, but the registrar has a note

10 that it's been entered into evidence, and it should be returned. Thank

11 you.

12 JUDGE MAY: Very well. It's already admitted. I'm sorry --

13 MR. SAYERS: You returned the exhibits to the Prosecution --

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

15 MR. SAYERS: -- but somehow this document tiptoed into evidence,

16 according to the registrar's record --

17 JUDGE MAY: Right.

18 MR. SAYERS: -- but it should be returned to the Prosecution.

19 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

20 MR. SAYERS: Thank you.

21 WITNESS: MARINKO PALAVRA [Resumed]

22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 MR. SAYERS: I wonder if I could ask the usher to put this

24 document on the ELMO.

25 Cross-examined by Mr. Sayers: [Continued]

Page 27025

1 Q. There is one reference to you in the UNPROFOR documents that have

2 been introduced into evidence in this case.

3 MR. SAYERS: For the Court's reference, this is Exhibit D334/1,

4 tab 73.

5 Q. It's in English, Colonel, and on page 5 your name is mentioned,

6 although wrongly spelled. "Marinko Palabera," it says there, "Chief of

7 Military Police. He is assessed to be professional and serious about his

8 job."

9 But just above that, sir, is a reference to the HVO brigade

10 commander in Busovaca, a man by the name of Dusko Grubesic. And there's

11 no question, Colonel, that throughout your time as chief of military

12 police, from August until he was replaced in October, he was actually the

13 military commander of the HVO in Busovaca. Would you agree with that?

14 A. Your Honours, as far as I can remember, Dusko Grubesic was the

15 commander of the HVO brigade in Busovaca.

16 Q. And he was replaced as military commander in Busovaca in October

17 of 1993 by a man called Jure Cavara. Is that consistent with your

18 recollection, Colonel?

19 A. I remember it, yes.

20 Q. And Commander Grubesic, I believe, is now a brigadier in the Army

21 of the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

22 A. Your Honours, Dusko Grubesic at the moment is the commander --

23 Just a moment. He is the commander of the Vitez unit, or the Vitez

24 formation.

25 Q. One question that I omitted to ask you yesterday, Colonel, is

Page 27026

1 this: You have had the opportunity to review your testimony in the

2 Blaskic case on January 11th and 12th, 1999?

3 A. Well, I didn't stay there long.

4 Q. Just a formal question for you, Colonel. Do you reaffirm the

5 factual accuracy of the testimony that you gave before the Blaskic trial

6 court a year and a half -- well, a year and ten months ago?

7 A. Yes, quite so.

8 Q. All right, sir. We covered yesterday Mr. Kordic and his absence

9 from the chain of command, and I'd like to continue questions along the

10 lines of inquiring into the chain of command while you were commander of

11 the military police. There's no question that the military commander of

12 the Central Bosnia Operative Zone and the principal military figure in

13 that zone was your superior, Colonel Tihomir Blaskic; is that right?

14 A. It is, Your Honours.

15 Q. And up until the date that the Washington Agreement was signed,

16 Colonel, and indeed even before you became military police commander, you

17 received your orders directly from the commander of the Central Bosnia

18 Operative Zone, Colonel Blaskic; correct?

19 A. It is.

20 Q. And in no sense, sir, were you a subordinate of or answerable to

21 Mr. Kordic at any time during the tenure -- during your tenure of office

22 as military police commander?

23 A. Yes, quite so, Your Honours.

24 Q. One matter of detail which could become relevant in my later

25 questions: You took over your duties as military police commander while

Page 27027

1 the Croat community of Herceg-Bosna was still in existence, the HZ HB; is

2 that right?

3 A. That's right.

4 Q. And the Croat Republic of Herceg-Bosna was founded about a month

5 after you were appointed as a military police commander, the republic

6 being declared on August the 28th, 1993. Is that consistent with your

7 recollection, Colonel?

8 A. More or less, yes, that's how it was.

9 Q. All right. Now, during the course of your -- the performance of

10 your duties as commander of the 4th Battalion of military police, Colonel

11 Blaskic required you to attend daily briefings with him each morning. Is

12 that fair to say?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And on each Friday, weekly meetings were held with all of the

15 brigade commanders.

16 A. Indeed, Your Honours.

17 Q. And it's also fair to say, sir, that at no time were any of the

18 individuals whose names were mentioned to you by Mr. Scott yesterday, a

19 couple of examples being Miso Mijic and Dragan Voloder, at no time were

20 they permitted to attend meetings of the military bodies in the Central

21 Bosnia Operative Zone, were they?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. In fact, if we take a look at exhibit number eight of the exhibit

24 package that we identified yesterday as Exhibit D344/1 --

25 MR. SAYERS: There's no need to put it on the ELMO, but I would be

Page 27028

1 obliged if you would give it to the witness.

2 Q. This is a letter or a reply by Colonel Blaskic, dated September

3 the 11th, 1993. We don't know who it's a reply to, but it responds to a

4 request -- actually, it's to the Central Bosnia so-called Security and

5 Information Service centre, the SIS centre, about which we heard

6 yesterday. And Colonel Blaskic responds to a request made to attend

7 Central Bosnia Operative Zone command meetings, and he refuses that

8 request. Were you familiar with that refusal, Colonel?

9 A. Your Honours, this is the first time I see this reply of Colonel

10 Blaskic's.

11 Q. Very well. Since you are unfamiliar with the document, there's no

12 need to go through it other than this: On page 2, Colonel Blaskic tells

13 the SIS centre that, "I do not know, nor have I been informed, either what

14 is within the competence of the SIS centre or what authority its

15 individual staff members have, including the post of the chief of the

16 centre, since I have not received any orders or instructions."

17 That's the statement of your commander, sir, and the same is true

18 of you. You were completely unaware that the so-called SIS centre,

19 whatever it was, had any official function whatsoever in the Central

20 Bosnia Operative Zone. Is that fair to say?

21 A. Yes, quite, Your Honours. Yesterday I said that Colonel Blaskic

22 in the Operative Zone Central Bosnia had his own assistant for security

23 affairs, and I communicated with him, or rather, we cooperated. And the

24 SIS centre was something that I did not know at all about at that time.

25 It was only through the military chain of command.

Page 27029

1 Q. I'll have some questions for you later about these individuals,

2 Mijic and Voloder, but let me continue on with the briefings that you

3 attended every morning with Blaskic.

4 During those briefings, you would get your daily orders from your

5 commanding officer, wouldn't you, Colonel?

6 A. Why, yes. Following briefings, Colonel Blaskic would give tasks,

7 not only to me as the commander of the military police, but to all his

8 assistants, depending on our mandates and whatever we were in charge of;

9 that is, we would all be issued with tasks.

10 Q. And you've previously explained to us how difficult the situation

11 was with many of your subordinate military policemen on the front lines.

12 Occasionally, the orders that you would receive from your commanding

13 officer would be combat orders, too, wouldn't they, Colonel?

14 A. At that time, there were the military police which went to the

15 defence line. We were at the defence lines most of the time.

16 Q. Right. But the particular combat directives that you received for

17 the operation of your soldiers on the defence lines, Colonel, were given

18 to you by Colonel Blaskic during either these daily briefings that you

19 attended with him or the weekly commanders meetings that he convened every

20 Friday?

21 A. Your Honours, the -- we did not have -- while I was the commander

22 of the police, we did not have any combat orders. All we had was the

23 defence, that is, holding defence lines in the areas of operation of

24 Muslim forces. Where there is a certain front, or rather, where it is

25 broken through, we would go to replenish it, to fill it in, and we would

Page 27030

1 take those trenches.

2 Q. I appreciate your answer, Colonel, and maybe my question was

3 inelegantly phrased, but can we both agree that any orders that you

4 received for military activity of a defensive nature were received from

5 your commanding officer, Colonel Blaskic?

6 A. Yes, quite so.

7 Q. And Mr. Kordic never attended any of these daily briefings or

8 these weekly commanders meetings that were convened by Colonel Blaskic.

9 Would that be fair to say?

10 A. Your Honours, I remember that is how morning briefings were, not

11 Colonel -- that is, at Colonel Blaskic's, Mr. Kordic was not present; but

12 at briefings which were held every Friday or -- yes, I mean every Friday,

13 once or twice he did attend. I did see Mr. Kordic. He was there in those

14 meetings, but he was only present there. That is, he did not conduct

15 those briefings, he was simply present.

16 Q. All right. So during the eight months that you were a military

17 police commander, between the date that you assumed your duties on August

18 the 1st of 1993 until the end of March of 1994 when the Washington

19 Agreement was signed, your recollection is that Mr. --

20 THE INTERPRETER: Could you slow down, Mr. Sayers.

21 MR. SAYERS: I apologise to the interpreters.

22 Q. Your recollection is that Mr. Kordic attended only one or two of

23 those meetings that were held every week?

24 A. Yes, quite so. And I should also like to tell the Court I

25 remember well when Mr. Kordic was present, that I, having received the

Page 27031

1 duty of the commander of the 4th Battalion, at that time, at that meeting,

2 I said that we had knowledge, that we had, that is, knowledge that our

3 criminals will sell both Blaskic and Kordic to the Muslim side for 50 to

4 100.000 marks. I said that at the meeting and I remember that Mr. Kordic

5 was present at that very meeting.

6 Q. But Mr. Kordic never made any military observations at any of

7 these meetings, or comments of a military nature. That would be fair to

8 say and you would agree with that, Colonel; correct?

9 A. Your Honours, these briefings were conducted by Colonel Blaskic,

10 because those were military briefings. And Mr. Kordic was simply present,

11 and naturally he took notes, he wrote, but he made no comments about any

12 military matters.

13 Q. Just a few final questions on this topic. You told us yesterday

14 that you yourself never once received any orders from Mr. Kordic, or

15 instructions or directives. It's true also that none of your subordinates

16 ever told you that Mr. Kordic had tried to issue orders or directives to

17 them either; would you agree with that?

18 A. Yes, indeed, Your Honours.

19 Q. Colonel, you were shown some documents yesterday relating to

20 police appointments and so forth. One of them was Exhibit Z386, signed by

21 your then-commander, Ivo Rezo, on January 21st, 1993. It was an order

22 that supposedly evidenced the appointment of Nikola Perica to the post of

23 commander of the Fojnica police station.

24 MR. SAYERS: Thank you, Mr. Usher.

25 Q. Now, this was -- the post itself, commander of the Fojnica police

Page 27032

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 27033

1 station, was actually a civilian post, was it not?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And do you have a recollection, Colonel, that in fact Mr. Perica

4 was never -- he never took up the post of commander of the Fojnica police

5 station, for whatever reason?

6 A. Your Honours, I do not know Ivica -- Ivo -- no, sorry. No. This

7 is Nikola Perica. I don't know the man, so I do not know.

8 Q. Very well. You were asked some questions yesterday about the

9 group known as the Jokers and also the 3rd Light Assault Battalion. Would

10 you agree that no one throughout your many years as commander of military

11 police in Vitez has ever suggested to you that the Jokers were ever under

12 the authority or command in any way of Mr. Kordic?

13 A. Yes, quite so.

14 Q. And that, of course, includes your long-time deputy, Vladimir

15 Santic, doesn't it, Colonel?

16 A. Yes, indeed. Santic never said ... I don't know.

17 MR. SAYERS: I wonder if the usher could give the witness the big

18 book of military police exhibits that the Prosecution introduced

19 yesterday.

20 And since the book itself doesn't have a single exhibit reference,

21 could I just recite the exhibit numbers for the record that are in this

22 binder, Your Honour? It's Exhibit Z1134, 1134.1, 1165.2, 2332, and 2340.

23 Actually, I've marked this up. Do we have the original exhibit?

24 JUDGE MAY: It doesn't matter if you've marked it.

25 MR. SAYERS: Very well.

Page 27034

1 JUDGE MAY: Unless there's anything of particular importance to

2 yourself on it.

3 MR. SAYERS: There's a little bit, but I'll try to remember what

4 they are.

5 Q. I want to suggest to you, Colonel, that there is in all of these

6 military police documents no reference to Mr. Kordic having any command

7 role or any authority whatsoever in the military police or any of its

8 component units, including the Jokers and the 3rd Light Assault

9 Battalion. And I am also going to suggest to you, and I'd like your

10 comment on this, that the reason for the omission of Mr. Kordic's name in

11 those documents is because he had no such command authority, such command

12 role, any kind of superior/subordinate relationship insofar as the

13 military police are concerned. Would you agree with that?

14 A. Yes, I would. I would agree with this. That is how it was.

15 Q. All right. Now, there's just a few documents, or just two

16 documents in this package that I'd like you to look at. Unfortunately,

17 they are both in English, so the usher is going to have to put them on the

18 ELMO for everybody's reference, and I'll translate for you.

19 MR. SAYERS: The first is tabbed at the top with a yellow tab,

20 Mr. Usher.

21 This is Exhibit Z2332A, Your Honours, at page 11.

22 And we'll start with the dissolution of the 3rd Light Assault

23 Battalion first and then go into the process by which it was created. But

24 the document that I want to draw to your attention is -- it was marked at

25 the top, Mr. Usher, with the yellow tab, page 11. Yes. And I've

Page 27035

1 highlighted the portion at the bottom of the page. There you are.

2 Q. This describes how the 1st and 2nd Light Assault Battalions ceased

3 to exist as a result of an order issued by Lieutenant General Anto Roso,

4 and we can see that the document makes the same reference insofar as the

5 3rd Light Assault Battalion is concerned. Is it your recollection that

6 the 3rd Light Assault Battalion was in fact dissolved by order of General

7 Roso, the then-commander of the Main Staff of the HVO?

8 A. Your Honours, I don't know. I mean, I know nothing about it. I

9 know that the 3rd Light Assault -- or rather, that parts of the 3rd Light

10 Assault created the 3rd Guards Brigade. That is what I do know.

11 MR. SAYERS: All right. Thank you, Mr. Usher. I'm through with

12 that one.

13 The next document is also marked at the top. This is Exhibit

14 2332I, I believe, Your Honour, and it's a report that's actually issued by

15 Pasko Ljubicic, or authored by Pasko Ljubicic.

16 Q. It says, sir, that Mr. Vukovic used to be the 4th Battalion of

17 Military Police commander. He was then replaced by Pasko Ljubicic on the

18 orders of Valentin Coric, who was the chief of the military police

19 administration in Ljubuski. And that's correct; that's a correct

20 recitation of fact, isn't it?

21 A. Yes. After Zvonko Vukovic, it was the commander, Pasko Ljubicic,

22 and I succeeded him.

23 Q. And then Mr. Ljubicic goes on to recite the locations in which the

24 4th Battalion of Military Police participated in military activity and

25 identifies Ahmici as one of those areas. Did you ever discuss the

Page 27036

1 operations conducted by the 4th Battalion of Military Police in Ahmici

2 with your predecessor, Pasko Ljubicic?

3 A. No, Your Honours, never.

4 MR. SAYERS: I'm finished with that package of exhibits. Thank

5 you very much, sir.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes. I have a document for the legal officer.

7 MR. SAYERS:

8 Q. Now, the package of exhibits that I had asked you to review,

9 Exhibit D343/1 -- no, I'm sorry. It's D344/1. I apologise for that.

10 Just so that we can finish out our inquiries relating to the 3rd Light

11 Assault Battalion, sir, would you take a look at the very first tab of

12 this exhibit. It's an order dated June 28th, 1993, and it's an order

13 signed by -- or for Valentin Coric, the commander of the military police

14 administration in Ljubuski. And in this order, he directs the 3rd Light

15 Assault Military Police Battalion, based in Vitez, to be formed.

16 Were you aware that Mr. Coric had issued that order in June of

17 1993 or did you become aware of this order at any time, sir?

18 A. Your Honour, I do not know this.

19 Q. All right. If you'd just turn -- or just turn to the bottom of

20 the Croatian version.

21 MR. SAYERS: And for the Court's information, it's page 2.

22 Q. This order from Mr. Coric goes on to recite that the assistant

23 chief of the military police administration responsible for the zone was

24 also authorised to command the Light Assault Battalion in that zone. So

25 Mr. Ljubicic would have been authorised to command the 3rd Light Assault

Page 27037

1 Battalion in the Central Bosnia Operative Zone. Is that consistent with

2 your understanding, Colonel?

3 A. Yes, that's what I was told.

4 Q. All right. And if you would just turn to tab 5 of this exhibit

5 package.

6 MR. SAYERS: And this has already been marked, Your Honours, as

7 Exhibit Z1165.2.

8 There's an attachment to an order, another order by Mr. Coric,

9 dated August the 12th, 1993, that recites Mr. Ljubicic having been

10 appointed as assistant chief of the military police administration for the

11 Central Bosnia Operative Zone, and that's a correct recitation. When you

12 assumed your duties as military police commander of the 4th Battalion,

13 Mr. Ljubicic was actually the assistant chief of the military police

14 administration in the Central Bosnia Operative Zone, correct?

15 A. Yes, that's correct.

16 Q. So at all times, as far as you're aware, at least prior to the

17 dissolution of the 3rd Light Assault Battalion by order of General Roso,

18 that unit, that combat unit was under the direct authority and command of

19 Pasko Ljubicic?

20 A. Yes, quite so.

21 Q. And never under the authority or command in any way whatsoever of

22 Mr. Kordic, as far as you're aware, sir?

23 A. No, it wasn't.

24 Q. Now, you've given some testimony, Colonel, regarding the

25 difficulties between the military police and the criminals that simply

Page 27038

1 abounded in your area in the anarchic times of the autumn and winter of

2 1993.

3 You suspected your own assistant commander Mr. Jozipovic, I think

4 you said yesterday, of basically tipping off criminal elements to

5 anticipated or planned criminal investigations or investigation activities

6 by the military police, and that's why you removed him. Is that fair to

7 say?

8 A. That's right.

9 Q. You also mentioned an individual by the name of Zarko Andric who

10 had the nickname of Zuti. Now, Zuti was shot by his deputy or his

11 assistant, a man by the name of Zoran Tuka, shot and paralysed correct, in

12 a murder attempt?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. There has been some suggestion in some of the papers, Colonel --

15 maybe you can throw some light on this because I simply don't know -- is

16 it the case that this fellow Zuti was wounded as the military police were

17 trying to arrest him, or not?

18 A. No.

19 Q. Immediately after this murder attempt on Zuti, the man that you

20 were asked about yesterday, Miso Mijic, fled to Mostar, didn't he?

21 A. Your Honour, I don't remember exactly when Miso Mijic left, but

22 not only he but his assistants, or rather, those who were with him, went

23 to Herzegovina. I don't remember exactly when, but I know it was very

24 soon.

25 Q. And would you agree that they left in one almighty hurry, sir?

Page 27039

1 A. Yes, that's exactly how it was.

2 Q. And in connection with this rampant criminal activity that

3 unfortunately pervaded your area of responsibility, sir, you yourself were

4 the victim of crimes, weren't you? You had your car stolen a couple of

5 times, I believe. You even had explosives placed under your car once to

6 blow it up in an apparent murder attempt on you?

7 A. Your Honours, my car was not stolen. The first time they took my

8 car by an RPG, and that was one of Zuti's men; and the second time they

9 put an explosive underneath my car.

10 Q. The Court might be wondering, Colonel, and I certainly am, that if

11 this criminal activity was perpetrated upon you yourself, the commander of

12 the 4th Battalion of military police, why wasn't it that this perpetrator

13 Zuti was arrested and prosecuted for that? Was that a practical

14 alternative or not?

15 A. Your Honours, at that time, that couldn't be done. Judge

16 Picinovic [phoen], who was at the court in Vitez, he was wounded by Zuti,

17 and he didn't want to submit a criminal report. And the public

18 prosecutor's car was stolen, Marinko Jurcevic car, and again, that was

19 done by Zuti's men, and again, there was no criminal report. Before I

20 took up the duty of the commander of the 4th Battalion of the military

21 police, Zuti attacked military police units twice, and there was no

22 punishment.

23 Q. But the question is, Colonel, why not?

24 A. I don't know. I only know that at that time there were widespread

25 attacks by the Muslim forces, the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, on

Page 27040

1 Central Bosnia, and the chief priority was to defend the lines, the

2 defence lines, and I think that was why.

3 Q. All right. Well, let's turn to another subject, Colonel. You've

4 told us that Colonel Blaskic could request the military police to perform

5 investigations into suspected criminal transgressions, but he could not

6 himself order arrests or influence the manner in which the investigation

7 was actually conducted. Is that -- do I have it correctly? Do I

8 understand it correctly?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And on occasion, Colonel Blaskic did exercise that power. He did

11 request you to perform criminal investigations into suspected criminal

12 activity, correct?

13 A. Yes. According to what he knew at the morning briefings, he would

14 say that such and such should be investigated. It all depended on what

15 was going on at the time.

16 Q. All right. Mr. Kordic never had that power and never once

17 requested you to perform any investigation, right? That was outside of

18 his ambit, if you like.

19 A. Exactly so, yes.

20 Q. And you're familiar, I take it, sir, with the rules of military

21 discipline that permitted military commanders and brigade commanders,

22 depending upon their rank, to issue on their own authority disciplinary

23 punishments against people who had transgressed the rules of military

24 discipline, right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 27041

1 Q. In fact, I think you yourself had the authority equivalent to a

2 brigade commander, and that enabled you to impose disciplinary detention

3 sentences of up to one month upon transgressors?

4 A. Yes, yes, precisely.

5 Q. And just three documents I would like to go over very lightly with

6 you, Colonel, which show that you were actually performing your job and

7 that charges were being filed, investigations were being performed.

8 Tab 4 of the package in front of you is a report that you

9 prepared, I believe, dated August the 10th, 1993. And the only point I

10 want to draw to your attention is that, amongst other things, it says that

11 criminal charges were filed against two Croats, Davor Lovric and Marinko

12 Stojanovic, because they had been suspected of committing the crime of

13 rape. Do you recall that?

14 A. Your Honour, a lot of time has elapsed. I don't remember.

15 Q. That's just one point about the document, but the real point that

16 I wanted to make, Colonel, is to note the people to whom your report was

17 addressed. These are your superiors, correct? First, the military police

18 administration in Ljubuski; second, the Central Bosnia Operative Zone

19 command; and third, the assistant chief of military police administration?

20 A. That's right.

21 Q. All right.

22 MR. SAYERS: And given the witness's answer, Mr. President, to

23 that, we just draw the Court's attention to tabs 6 and 7 of this exhibit

24 which are along the same lines, tab 7 being a communique. If you just

25 turn to tab 7, sir, it's a communique that's issued apparently or

Page 27042

1 ostensibly by the information office of the Central Bosnia Operative Zone,

2 and it makes reference, amongst other things, to the proclamation of the

3 Republic of Herceg-Bosna on page 1, and to the pronouncement of sentences

4 upon two people, two Croats suspected of aggravated robbery and two other

5 Croats suspected of aiding and abetting.

6 Q. Do you recall anything about this communique, Colonel, or not?

7 A. Forgive me, Your Honours. It's rather illegible, so I need some

8 time to study it.

9 Q. I don't think that we need to spend too much time on this,

10 Colonel. The only point that I wanted to make was that criminal

11 investigations were being performed, cases were being tried, and sentences

12 were being handed out, even under the difficult conditions of wartime and

13 encirclement and siege, essentially, that you faced in the Novi

14 Travnik-Vitez-Busovaca pocket; would you agree with that?

15 A. I agree with that.

16 Q. Very well. We can move on. You were shown a document by the

17 Prosecution, Exhibit Z1380.2, which was a report dated --

18 MR. SAYERS: I have a copy here for the ...

19 Q. This is a report, Colonel, that you said was signed by your

20 deputy, Vladimir Santic, and just a list of people in the military

21 police. A couple of questions about this. If you turn to the last page,

22 there appears to be a handwritten request by Colonel Blaskic to follow up

23 on providing another document that identifies how many of the people

24 listed are in commanding positions and to outline the command structure.

25 Do you recall whether you ever did that?

Page 27043

1 A. Your Honours, I do not remember, but I think I must have done it,

2 but I can't recall now.

3 Q. That's all right, sir. Now, there are 483 people listed on this

4 list. How many military policemen or military police did you actually

5 have under your control, sir? Was it 483 or some other number?

6 A. Your Honours, the structure changed. There was a time when I had,

7 I think, 647 military policemen, and according to the book signed by the

8 minister, the 4th Battalion could have a little over 700 policemen

9 altogether, together with command. But in 1994, I had the highest number

10 of policemen, about 650, on the area controlled by the 4th Battalion. The

11 list changed all the time.

12 Q. All right. And of these 483 policemen under your command,

13 apparently 5 were assigned to protect Mr. Kordic. If you take a look at

14 page 5 of the Croatian version, it lists Messrs. Santic, Arapovic, Cosic,

15 Lastro and Lovric; right?

16 A. Yes, that's right.

17 Q. These people appeared on the payroll. Were they actually military

18 policemen or not?

19 A. Your Honours, this is the situation I found in the 4th Battalion:

20 They were on the payroll only, but their duty was to guard Mr. Kordic.

21 They were to escort him and to be his security guards.

22 Q. Now, just one question about Mr. Kordic. There's no question,

23 sir, that he was never the chief of the HVO Main Staff; you would agree

24 with that, wouldn't you?

25 A. Well, that's the first time I've heard this.

Page 27044

1 Q. Right. And if you would just turn to page 5, it says, at least

2 according to the translation, "Personal security of the chief of the HVO

3 Main Staff, Colonel Dario Kordic." That was just an error by your

4 subordinate; would you agree with that, Colonel?

5 A. Yes, precisely.

6 Q. Thank you, sir. I'm through with that document. And I would just

7 like to ask you a few general questions about your deputy commander,

8 Vladimir Santic. We know that he was actually fulfilling the functions of

9 acting commander of the 4th Battalion of Military Police for some 15 days,

10 I believe you said, prior to your appointment on August 1st of 1993.

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And he remained your deputy commander from August 1st of 1993

13 until what time, sir?

14 A. Your Honours, Vlado Santic remained my deputy until the moment

15 when he submitted a request to return to the civilian police, because

16 before the war he used to be a civilian policeman, and throughout the time

17 he was in the military police he was my deputy.

18 Q. All right. And could you just -- I just forgot. Could you give

19 us an idea of how long he remained your deputy? From August 1st of 1993

20 until approximately what time, sir?

21 A. Believe me, I don't know, but I know that in 1994, maybe early

22 1995, he went to the civilian police.

23 Q. All right. So we can agree that he was your deputy commander for

24 at least a year and probably more?

25 A. Yes, that's right.

Page 27045

1 Q. And you interacted with your deputy on a daily basis; you spoke to

2 him every day, met with him every day during the conduct of your

3 activities as commander. Correct?

4 A. Your Honours, when I had time, I had briefings for my assistants

5 every morning, and then I would go to Colonel Blaskic's regular briefings,

6 because I had to know what the situation was in my 4th Battalion in order

7 to be able to report to Colonel Blaskic. So we did see each other every

8 day.

9 Q. And so you spoke to and with your deputy commander every day for

10 over a year and a half; you would agree with that?

11 A. Yes, precisely.

12 Q. Now, sir, did this deputy commander of yours ever once condemn to

13 you the Ahmici operation?

14 A. Your Honours, never.

15 Q. Colonel, did this individual who was your deputy commander ever

16 condemn the operation when speaking to his subordinate police officers, to

17 your knowledge? Did you ever hear anything along those lines, ever once?

18 A. I don't know. No. No.

19 Q. Did your deputy commander ever mention where he had been on the

20 day that the Ahmici killings occurred, April the 16th, 1993?

21 A. Your Honours, I never talked about Ahmici with Vlado Santic.

22 Q. And so your deputy commander, I take it, sir, never told you that

23 he was actually in Ahmici on April 16th, seen by a woman whose husband he

24 and others murdered?

25 A. I don't know. No. No. Never.

Page 27046

1 Q. Did you ever note, sir, that your deputy commander had any

2 problems in exercising command, any reluctance to do that, any lack of

3 personal courage, anything like that?

4 A. No. I left Vlado Santic as my deputy because, when I arrived,

5 when I took up the post of commander, he told me -- and he behaved very

6 properly -- he told me that he had performed that duty for 15 days, and he

7 wished me good luck, he offered to be there for me in every way and to

8 support me if I needed it. And I knew he had been a civilian policeman

9 and that he was a professional in his job, and that was why I kept him on

10 as my deputy.

11 Q. Yes, sir. But did you ever notice any lack of courage or

12 timorousness on the part of your deputy commander when it came to

13 participation in combat operations, or actually -- well, let's leave the

14 question at that. Did you ever notice any of those qualities, lack of

15 courage or timorousness on the part of your deputy commander in exercising

16 his duties as a subordinate commander of yours?

17 A. No. Vlado Santic, throughout the time I was the commander, worked

18 in the command, doing operative tasks. He spent more time in the command.

19 Q. Right. He was never perceived as any kind of a personal coward,

20 was he, by the people that he commanded, to your knowledge?

21 A. No. I don't know. He performed the tasks I gave him. I can't

22 say whether he is a coward or not, but he did his job in a professional

23 manner. I always knew what he was doing, how he was doing it, how far he

24 had got. He always kept me informed.

25 Q. And the fact of the matter is that he was your second in command

Page 27047

1 and he exercised his command functions without hesitation and without

2 difficulty, as far as you could see; isn't that correct?

3 A. Thank God, yes, because otherwise he would not have been in the

4 4th Battalion, would I have been there.

5 Q. Yes, sir. Now, did he ever profess to you to be suffering from

6 psychiatric or psychological disturbances of any variety at all?

7 A. Your Honours, Vlado Santic, he had a kidney complaint, and I know

8 that he was suffering for quite a long time.

9 Q. [Previous translation continues] ... physical problems. I'm

10 interested in mental and psychiatric or psychological problems. Did he

11 ever profess to be suffering from any kind of pangs of guilt, pangs of

12 conscience, any kinds of psychiatric conditions or anything like that to

13 you, sir?

14 A. No, never. I -- he never told me, me or in the command, because I

15 would have known the reactions of my other subordinates, so I mean I don't

16 know that.

17 Q. And I take it that since he never spoke to you about Ahmici, he

18 never expressed any remorse, misgiving, or concern at any point for the

19 role that he played during the fighting that occurred in mid-April of

20 1993?

21 A. No, never.

22 Q. Did you ever notice your Deputy Commander crying every day, sir?

23 A. No, not in front of me.

24 Q. And one final question about your Deputy Commander, you both

25 obviously speak Croatian as your native language, don't you?

Page 27048

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You didn't notice your Deputy Commander having the slightest

3 difficulty expressing himself in his own language, did you, sir?

4 A. Sorry, I don't understand. Could you repeat it, please?

5 Q. Sounds like a silly question, but there is an answer; there is a

6 reason for asking the question, Colonel. The question is this: You never

7 noticed your Deputy Commander having the slightest difficulty expressing

8 himself in his native language to you or to the soldiers under his command

9 or to anybody else at any time; isn't that a fact?

10 A. It is.

11 Q. Now, I'd like to turn to --

12 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] We don't understand the answer

13 quite.

14 Colonel Palavra, are you answering in the affirmative? Are you

15 saying -- are you confirming what has been suggested by Mr. Sayers? If I

16 understood, your assistant had difficulties in expressing himself in the

17 language which is, which is yours and his? I didn't quite understand that

18 answer. Could you please explain what this is about, because I'm afraid I

19 lost you.

20 MR. SAYERS: Yes, Your Honour. I'm sorry if my question was

21 unclear. I simply wanted the Colonel to agree, and I appreciate that it

22 may at this particular stage appear to be a very silly question, but I

23 wanted him to agree that Croatian was the native language of his Deputy

24 Commander, that his Deputy Commander could speak it, and he never

25 exhibited the slightest difficulty in communicating to others, to his

Page 27049

1 commander, to the soldiers under his command, or to anybody else in his

2 own language.

3 Q. And that is true, isn't it, Colonel?

4 A. Yes, it is true. Yes, it is. That is how I understood your

5 question, yes.

6 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 MR. SAYERS: Your Honour, I hope that the reason for that question

8 will become apparent on November the 28th.

9 I wonder if the usher would show the witness Exhibit Z1318A about

10 which he was asked a couple of questions.

11 Q. Just a couple of questions about this document, sir. If you look

12 at this document, it appears to be an order. The Croatian version, at

13 least the cover memorandum, appears to be signed by someone, and it

14 appears to have a stamp. Do you know in fact whether that is the

15 signature of Ivica Lucic? Do you recognise the signature, or not?

16 A. Your Honours, I did not communicate with Ivica Lucic, but I --

17 yes, I do think that this is his signature.

18 Q. All right. Now, he purportedly sends along "one item of

19 information," and that's attached to his cover memorandum. Now, can you

20 tell who wrote that?

21 Just to wrap this up, Colonel, there's no way to tell who wrote

22 that excerpt that's attached to -- the item of information that's attached

23 to Colonel Lucic's cover memo, is there?

24 A. I was about to say, Your Honours, somebody wrote this information,

25 that is, gave it to the chief Ivica Lucic, and on the basis of what he

Page 27050

1 received, he then sent it on to Biskic, that is, the security sector. I

2 don't know who wrote that.

3 Q. Well, if you just take a look at the stamp next to Ivica Lucic's

4 signature, it says, "Hrvatska Zajednica Herceg-Bosna," the Croat community

5 of Herceg-Bosna, right?

6 A. It does, yes.

7 Q. And indeed, that document, the cover memorandum, appears to be on

8 letterhead that also says "Hrvatska Zajednicz Herceg-Bosna." You would

9 agree with that? I mean, we can all see it.

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And the date of the document is three months after the founding of

12 the Croat Republic of Herceg-Bosna, isn't it? Ivica Lucic's letter

13 appears, if it's real, to be dated November 26th, 1993, sir -- his cover

14 memorandum, not a letter. But that, you would agree, is three months

15 after the founding of the Croat Republic of Herceg-Bosna and three months

16 after the Croat Community of Herceg Bosna had ceased to exist, yes?

17 A. Yes, Republic.

18 Q. Now, you were aware, I believe, sir, that the SIS under

19 Mr. Sliskovic was performing an investigation into what had happened at

20 Ahmici, but, and I think you told this to the Blaskic Trial Chamber at

21 page 16.808, Colonel Blaskic never shared the results of that

22 investigation with you, did he?

23 A. Correct.

24 Q. Colonel Blaskic never once maintained to you, sir, that local

25 political figures had ordered him to undertake military operations on

Page 27051

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 27052

1 April the 16th, did he?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. He never mentioned to you that there had supposedly been meetings

4 held on the night of April the 15th between civilian politicians, did he?

5 A. Why, no. I told you, my task with Colonel Blaskic was to attend

6 morning briefings, naturally be assigned tasks, and ...

7 Q. But you never heard from your daily attendance at the Central

8 Bosnia Operative Zone headquarters and living in Vitez for over -- well,

9 for a few years, you've never heard any contention that attempts were

10 supposedly made to persuade Mr. Kordic to intercede, to stop an imminent

11 attack that was to be launched by the HVO in the Vitez-Ahmici area on

12 April 16th. You've never heard that once, have you, Colonel?

13 A. No, never.

14 Q. Now, just to turn to the relationship between Colonel Blaskic and

15 Mr. Kordic for a minute, as far as you were aware, throughout your time as

16 military police commander, these two men were on perfectly cordial terms.

17 Would that be fair to say?

18 A. Yes, indeed.

19 Q. You never once heard, throughout the time that you were there in

20 the Central Bosnia Operative Zone, living in Vitez, and actually

21 interfacing with or interrelating with Colonel Blaskic on a daily basis,

22 you never heard of any personal disagreements or tension that existed

23 between Colonel Blaskic on the one hand and Mr. Kordic or Mr. Kostroman on

24 the other, did you, sir?

25 A. I did not, no. That's right.

Page 27053

1 Q. And did Blaskic -- Colonel Blaskic, forgive me, ever complain to

2 you once, even, about any supposed interference in his command by

3 Mr. Kordic, or any other politician, for that matter?

4 A. No, never.

5 Q. Have you ever heard any stories going around about such intense

6 disagreements or any kind of disagreements between Mr. Kordic on the one

7 hand and Colonel Blaskic on the other?

8 A. No.

9 Q. And if an anonymously authored document were to state that there

10 were in fact acrimonious and bitter discords and disagreements between

11 Colonel Blaskic and Mr. Kordic, what would you have to say about the

12 factual accuracy of any such anonymous document, sir?

13 A. Your Honours, I would say that I think that that is, that is not

14 true because Colonel Blaskic and Colonel Kordic, what terms they were on

15 they will know best. But we, I mean the commanders, we never had any

16 suspicion. We never even suspected that there were some problems between

17 Blaskic and Kordic. Perhaps there was, but we never noticed anything like

18 that even if there was, but I do not think so because they were together

19 always, and I never saw anything of the sort.

20 Q. All right.

21 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Excuse me, Mr. Sayers.

22 Colonel Palavra, you tell us that your conclusion is that there

23 was no friction between Mr. Kordic and Colonel Blaskic because, in

24 particular, they were always together? I'm reading from the transcript.

25 What do you mean by this?

Page 27054

1 A. No, when I say "always," well, I -- well, they were often

2 together.

3 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Could you please be more

4 specific. What does it mean, "often"? Does that mean that that was

5 common knowledge, or did you often see them working together, being

6 together often?

7 A. Well, that was common knowledge because they held joint press

8 conferences, for instance, in Busovaca or Vitez or ...

9 I mean, that is my answer. I guess they cooperated. They worked

10 together. How often they met, I don't know, but I know they were at press

11 conferences. They were -- and at times, Mr. Kordic would come to the

12 military district in Vitez, and that's it.

13 JUDGE MAY: Let me follow that. What did you think Mr. Kordic was

14 doing at these press conferences and when he was with Colonel Blaskic?

15 What did you think his role was?

16 A. Your Honours, at that time, I thought that Mr. Kordic was man

17 number one in matters political in Central Bosnia, and man number one in

18 matters military was, well, Colonel Blaskic. At that time, I know that,

19 in view of the isolation of the Lasva Valley and the impossibility to

20 deblock the media, we, the Croats in Central Bosnia, received the only

21 information -- the only information accessible to us was from those press

22 conferences held in Busovaca, sometimes in Vitez, or I don't know where.

23 That is, we were completely cut off. We simply could not listen to the

24 news. They were all Muslim news, so that we had no knowledge of what was

25 going on in our areas. And it was those press conferences which I believe

Page 27055

1 were held weekly, and I wanted to watch that and to see what was going

2 on. So that we were, I mean, cut off.

3 MR. SAYERS:

4 Q. It's not surprising, Colonel, I think you'll agree, that

5 Mr. Kordic and Colonel Blaskic would be seen together when they would

6 attend these press conferences each week.

7 A. Yes, that's right.

8 Q. The final topic that I would like to cover with you in your

9 cross-examination, Colonel, is the subject of the SIS centre about which

10 you were asked some questions yesterday and some individuals that you

11 identified. But before I do that, did you ever hear of Mr. Kordic or

12 Mr. Kostroman having serious disputes or disagreements with the civilian

13 HVO leaders in Vitez or Busovaca or Novi Travnik?

14 A. No, I don't know anything about it.

15 Q. All right. Let's turn to some of the names that you were asked

16 about yesterday, the first being Miso Mijic. The fact of the matter is,

17 Colonel, that Mr. Mijic has a long background in drug trafficking, arms

18 smuggling, and he was actually drummed out of SIS by Ivica Lucic as a

19 result of those criminal connections; isn't that right?

20 A. Your Honours, I don't know. I know Miso Mijic very well as a man,

21 as a man who was in the Travnik municipality even while he played football

22 in Travnik.

23 Q. What can you tell us about his criminal background, if anything?

24 A. Your Honours, I know Mijic, I mean, from Travnik days, at the time

25 when he played football, when he was a member of Travnik club Borac. We

Page 27056

1 played together. And then he left. Since he was a good player, he joined

2 Zeljeznicar football club. And for a while -- he was not there long and

3 then he fell ill, and I believe he was retired; that is, he received a

4 pension from Zeljeznicar football club.

5 However, later on in the war he also received some welfare from

6 the HVO; that is, he presented his former illness. I don't know what

7 channels he used, but he managed to get out some benefits, some fringe

8 benefits and compensation, as if he had fallen ill during the war and due

9 to the war, which is not true.

10 Miso Mijic, at the moment -- that is, as far as I know --

11 immediately after the judgement of Colonel Blaskic was pronounced, went

12 to -- left for Australia or Canada, I wouldn't know exactly -- with his

13 family, and he seldom came to Central Bosnia. And even when he came, he

14 hid.

15 I know that in 1992, at the time when I was with the military

16 police of the municipal staff in Travnik, that he then held a card of the

17 military police of the Travnik municipal staff, signed by late Ivica

18 Stojak, the commander. He and those like him, Voloder, and not to list

19 others, and certain Muslims, had identical cards issued by late Stojak,

20 and they, pretending they were the special police, broke into some flats

21 in Travnik, regardless of whether they were Serb or Muslim or Croat, and

22 they robbed them of jewellery, of gold, of valuables, of money. I did

23 have a meeting with late Commander Ivica Stojak and I suggested to him to

24 urgently abolish those cards because there was the military police in

25 Travnik and there was no need for them to have such cards, and at that

Page 27057

1 time, Ivica Stojak, the then-commander, promised me that he would do that.

2 Q. Did this man, Mijic, ever have any official function of any type,

3 as far as you're aware, representing any organisation in Central Bosnia

4 prior to the time that he fled to Mostar?

5 A. I don't remember.

6 Q. There's no question, sir, that he was not actually involved at any

7 time in military matters, and in fact had been banned from attending any

8 meetings of the military commanders of the Central Bosnia Operative Zone

9 and of the military police by Colonel Blaskic; correct?

10 A. Never was meetings [as interpreted]. I guess so.

11 Q. You were never informed, I take it, sir, as the head of military

12 police, that this dubious individual was masquerading as the supposed

13 chief of the SIS centre, were you?

14 A. Sorry?

15 Q. Were you ever informed that this man Mijic was masquerading as the

16 putative or the supposed chief of something called the SIS centre in

17 Central Bosnia?

18 A. Yes. He posed as such.

19 Q. Do you know whether he was or he wasn't? Did you ever see any

20 orders from anybody in Mostar that actually gave him that status or title,

21 or any authority, anything of that variety?

22 A. No, I never saw that.

23 Q. You never saw any documents that were generated by this man or by

24 the body that he claimed to represent, the SIS centre, did you, sir?

25 A. No, never.

Page 27058

1 MR. SAYERS: All right. With the Court's permission, I'd like to

2 have one final exhibit marked, and this is the last series of questions

3 that I have. This is one of the anonymous documents, Your Honour, that

4 has been --

5 JUDGE MAY: Before you do, it's almost time for a break. It may

6 be sensible to break now.

7 MR. SAYERS: Yes. Thank you.

8 JUDGE MAY: Have you got many more minutes?

9 MR. SAYERS: I'm happy to say, Mr. President, that I will meet my

10 projection. I would anticipate 20 more minutes of examination of this

11 witness.

12 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll break now until --

13 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, excuse me for a moment.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

15 MR. SCOTT: It just may assist the Court's scheduling if I can

16 just tell the Chamber that it appears that, based on the most current

17 information, Witness AO will not be appearing today or tomorrow, and we

18 expect that the other two witnesses, Mr. Morsink and Mr. Husic, can be

19 taken in short order. So we would expect that, depending on the Cerkez

20 examination, that we could finish the evidence this afternoon.

21 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Thank you. We'll adjourn now until half

22 past 11.00.

23 --- Recess taken at 10.58 a.m.

24 --- On resuming at 11.34 a.m.

25 MR. SAYERS: Thank you, Mr. President. Could I just point out one

Page 27059

1 translation error? Page 27, line 19, it's been translated to be Colonel

2 Kordic, but my Croatian assistant points out to me that the witness

3 actually said "Mr." Kordic.

4 I wonder if I might ask the usher to put on the ELMO a document

5 dated or purportedly dated February the 8th of 1994. It has the initials

6 "BS" on it, and the identification numbers at the top right-hand corner

7 are L0025001 to 09.

8 Q. A couple of questions, Colonel Palavra. Could you just review

9 this document briefly and let me know if you've ever seen it before.

10 MR. SAYERS: Actually, you have the wrong -- it should be the

11 first page of the document. It's 001 on the top, right-hand -- thank

12 you.

13 Q. Now, Colonel, have you ever seen this document before?

14 A. Your Honours, this is the first time I see this document.

15 Q. Let me just ask you a couple of questions for a few minutes in

16 connection with this. The author of this document contends that the SIS

17 centre was set up pursuant to an order dated March the 19th, 1993. Now,

18 have you ever seen such an order from the security administration's chief?

19 A. No. I never saw something like that.

20 Q. All right.

21 MR. SAYERS: And Mr. President, I don't believe that this order

22 has been marked as an exhibit yet, and it hasn't been produced in any of

23 the so-called Zagreb materials.

24 Q. The author of this document, sir, makes the contention that

25 differences and lack of understanding in relations between the Vitez

Page 27060

1 military district started from the very first day of the alleged

2 operations of this entity, this SIS centre. Do you know anything about

3 that, any differences of opinion between people who purportedly

4 represented themselves as the SIS centre, Mijic being one of them, as

5 you've said, and Voloder being another? And Colonel Blaskic on the other

6 hand, of course.

7 A. Your Honours, I don't know anything about this. All I know is

8 that I, as the commander of the 4th Battalion of military police,

9 cooperated with the Security Service at the Central Bosnia Operative Zone,

10 and that's all I know.

11 Q. All right, that's fine. If you take a look on the first page, it

12 continues that the main obstacle to the work of this SIS centre outfit

13 from the very beginning is alleged to have been Ante Sliskovic. Do you

14 know anything about that at all? Do you know whether that's truthful or

15 not?

16 A. Your Honours, this is the first time I see this piece of

17 information. As regards Ante Sliskovic, I haven't read this. I would

18 like to read it, and then I might be able to say more about it. But as

19 far as I know, as regards the army, Ante Sliskovic was the assistant

20 commander for security, and I cooperated with him. But the SIS centre is

21 unknown to me; I'm not familiar with it.

22 Q. Yes, sir. The only authorised official representing the security

23 and information service of whom you were ever aware throughout your time

24 at the Central Bosnia Operative Zone was Mr. Sliskovic. Isn't that fair

25 to say?

Page 27061

1 A. That's correct.

2 Q. He had the authority to represent the security and information

3 service and, as far as you know, the people claiming to be representatives

4 of this SIS centre outfit did not. Would you agree with that?

5 A. I fully agree.

6 Q. All right. Now, on the bottom of page 1, the author of this

7 document contends that Mr. Sliskovic took the position that this SIS

8 centre body was a paramilitary and illegal formation. Have you ever seen

9 any documents ever, sir, that establish that the SIS centre, or so-called

10 SIS centre, was a legal body, that it had any kind of duly delegated

11 authority from any body that had the ability to give that authority?

12 A. No, I never saw anything like that.

13 Q. Thank you. All right. The person who authored this document also

14 contends that these SIS centre quasi-operatives, if I may describe them

15 that way, apparently had clashes with not only the Central Bosnia

16 Operative Zone command, Colonel Blaskic, but the top political officials

17 as well. And if we go over to page 2, Mr. Usher, it says that these

18 people had attempted to gain control over the SIS centre.

19 Do you know of any facts whatsoever, sir, that would tend to

20 suggest that that statement is accurate, or not?

21 A. Your Honours, I do not know this.

22 Q. All right. So the author goes on to say that because of this

23 obstructionism, or purported obstructionism, on the part of the

24 politicians and the military, then these people, these covert operatives,

25 had to seek the best possible way to function. So what they decided to do

Page 27062

1 was go to the commander of the special purpose unit, the Vitezovi, Darko

2 Kraljevic, and the contention is made that for all practical purposes he

3 is the second most important man in the Vitez Operative Zone. Now,

4 Colonel, that's just not so, is it? Mr. Kraljevic was not in any way the

5 second most important man in the Vitez Operative Zone.

6 A. Your Honours, no. Kraljevic was not in the Central Bosnia

7 Operative Zone at all. He was the commander of the Vitezovi unit. That's

8 what I know.

9 Q. All right. And the author goes on to say that the SIS centre

10 supposedly started operating in early May of 1993 and that reports and

11 findings and suggestions were submitted to Colonel Blaskic personally, as

12 can be seen, so the author says, "from our files." Have you ever seen any

13 documents, reports, findings, or suggestions that were ever authored by

14 any purported representative of this entity, the SIS centre, that were

15 sent to Colonel Blaskic, sir?

16 A. Your Honours, no. I never saw such documents. At least, they

17 were not accessible to me, if there were any such documents.

18 MR. SAYERS: Very well. The document then goes on to describe

19 report numbers, and gives a subject of the reports. And I'm sure if I'm

20 wrong, I'll be corrected, but let me just represent to the Trial Chamber

21 that these documents have not been marked as exhibits and they've not been

22 identified as Zagreb materials.

23 JUDGE MAY: Well, now, what are you asking, Mr. Sayers, that we do

24 with these documents?

25 MR. SAYERS: With this document? I'm just using this document,

Page 27063

1 Your Honour, to -- as an exemplar illustration, if you like, of foundation

2 for similar types of documents, using this witness's personal knowledge as

3 a participant in affairs that this document purportedly describes.

4 JUDGE MAY: Yes, but are you asking for the document to be

5 exhibited?

6 MR. SAYERS: No, not at all. In fact, our position is that this

7 is not a proper exhibit at all.

8 JUDGE MAY: Well, then, I'm not sure on what basis you can

9 possibly refer to it if it's not an exhibit. Either the document is

10 exhibited, in which case you can refer to it, or it's not an exhibit, in

11 which case it's not before the Trial Chamber. I don't think you can have

12 it both ways.

13 MR. SAYERS: I understand the point that you make, Mr. President.

14 I don't mind, frankly, having it marked as an exhibit, but I don't want

15 there to be any suggestion on the record that we recognise that this is in

16 any way a real or a valid document or that it actually records events

17 which occurred. We consider this document to be pretty much the product

18 of fiction on the part of people who are trying to evade military service

19 and who were largely involved in criminal activities, as the witness has

20 already said. But we can have it marked as an exhibit if you wish.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We take the view that the matter should be

23 exhibited, whatever value it may have or not have.

24 MR. SAYERS: I have extra copies for the Court.

25 THE REGISTRAR: The document will be marked Defence Exhibit

Page 27064

1 D345/1.

2 [Trial Chamber confers]

3 MR. SAYERS: And for the Trial Chamber's information, we've

4 reached page 3 of the English translation, L0025003.

5 Q. All right. Let's take a look at one of these reports that's

6 mentioned in the top paragraph there, sir. Supposedly there's an order

7 number -- and the document says that, but it's dated October 3rd, 1993,

8 regarding the line of defence at Zaselje. If we go to page 4, the first

9 full paragraph in that page says: "Our operatives have been denied

10 freedom of movement and access either to military units or the lines of

11 defence."

12 Can you tell us, sir, whether you've ever seen any report

13 regarding the line of defence at Zaselje, dated October 3rd, 1993? Does

14 that ring a bell or is that completely foreign to you?

15 A. Your Honours, this piece of information is something I see for the

16 first time.

17 Q. Very well. The next paragraph on page 3 goes on to say that

18 apparently an operative by the name of Adjaip, who I believe is the Boris

19 Adjaip you described yesterday, made a suggestion to Colonel Blaskic, and

20 supposedly Colonel Blaskic made fun of this suggestion and belittled it.

21 What can you tell us about this individual Adjaip? Do you know anything

22 about him?

23 A. Your Honours, as far as I know, Adjaip also went to Herzegovina.

24 What he did there, I really don't know, but he left for Herzegovina very

25 quickly and he probably went to the Republic of Croatia. I don't know

Page 27065

1 anything about him except that, when I was in Travnik, he was involved in

2 some sort of logistics, but I don't know exactly what he did.

3 Q. And I'm going to suggest to you, sir, that Mr. Adjaip left the

4 jurisdiction in a serious hurry, along with Mr. Mijic, after the Tuka

5 murder; isn't that right?

6 A. What murder?

7 Q. Zoran Tuka.

8 A. Yes. Yes. They all went there.

9 Q. All right. The author of this report then goes on to say that

10 this SIS centre outfit has supposedly submitted 54 written reports to the

11 Vitez Operative Zone command. Once again, I think it's accurate to say

12 that you never saw any such reports, if they were indeed submitted; right?

13 A. Your Honours, precisely. I didn't see any of those documents, nor

14 was I supposed to see it. If they were sent, then Anto Sliskovic or

15 Colonel Blaskic would know about them. It wasn't my place to know about

16 them. This is the first time I see this information and these documents

17 issued by this SIS service.

18 Q. All right. The next contention that is made is that Mr. Sliskovic

19 put Mr. Mirko Selak in the military detention facility at Busovaca in July

20 of 1993. Do you know anything about that?

21 A. Your Honours, I know that Selak was in Kaonik, in Busovaca, but I

22 don't know anything else about it.

23 Q. You've never heard any contention that Mr. Selak, this supposed

24 representative of the SIS centre outfit, was improperly jailed, have you?

25 A. No, no.

Page 27066

1 Q. If we could go over to the next page, page 4, Mr. Usher. The

2 author of this document says that, as I've just recited, the CSIS or SIS

3 centre operatives have supposedly been denied freedom of movement and

4 access to military units or lines of defence. Would you agree with me,

5 sir, that it would be absolutely impossible to write informed reports

6 about lines of defence front lines if you don't go there?

7 A. Precisely so.

8 Q. And in addition, as we've seen from tab 8, I believe, of the

9 exhibits we used with you, sir, Colonel Blaskic refused permission to

10 these people to attend meetings of the Central Bosnia Operative Zone

11 command. So there's no way that these people, from personal knowledge,

12 would know of anything that was discussed in the Central Bosnia Operative

13 Zone command meetings, the military police discussions, or the discussions

14 of the duly authorised representatives of the security and information

15 service, is there?

16 A. Your Honours, that's how it should be.

17 Q. Now, the last paragraph on this page makes the observation that

18 these people participated in numerous operations carried out by the

19 Vitezovi. And you've previously told us that, in your view, sir, the

20 people that you've identified, this Mijic, Adjaip, Voloder, these were all

21 people that were operating with Mr. Kraljevic, the commander of the

22 Vitezovi, correct?

23 A. Yes, yes, precisely so.

24 Q. All right.

25 A. And, Your Honours, they were even under Kraljevic's protection. I

Page 27067

1 remember in the Security Service after the signing of the ceasefire, a

2 certain amount of weapons were confiscated by Mijic, Voloder, and their

3 men from citizens, allegedly for the needs of the SIS, and they issued

4 receipts, which they signed. So that after the signing of the ceasefire

5 in 1995 and even in 1996, many citizens of Croatian nationality asked for

6 their weapons to be returned to them -- they were hunting rifles, pistols

7 -- because they had properly-signed receipts, signed by Mijic and

8 Voloder, saying that these weapons were being temporarily requisitioned

9 for the needs of the army; but no one ever got their weapon back.

10 Q. The long and the short of it is that this Mijic and Voloder and

11 other CSIS representatives you've identified stole these weapons, isn't

12 that right?

13 A. Well, that's how it turned out to be. There has to be some

14 information about what happened to those weapons. Maybe they sold them, I

15 don't know, but people went to the legitimate Security Service with the

16 army, and I saw those documents in the command in the SIS centre.

17 Q. All right. Going on, sir, there's a reference on page 5 of the

18 English version of this document to Colonel Blaskic responding to a

19 request for lists of people in the Operative Zone submitted by these SIS

20 centre people, and he basically refused to give them any information about

21 the people under his command, any lists of the people under his command.

22 Were you aware of any such requests being made by these people?

23 A. No, no.

24 Q. Let me go to the next page, please. The author then goes on to

25 say that, basically, CSIS was, to a large degree, left to its own

Page 27068

1 devices. And that's the case, isn't it? These people were operating

2 basically without authority and without any official work, as far as you

3 knew; just as sometime members of the Vitezovi sometimes stealing weapons

4 from people?

5 MR. SCOTT: Sir, I have to object. At some point there has to

6 come a limit to the characterisations or arguments of counsel.

7 MR. SAYERS:

8 Q. Colonel, you can answer the question, I think. These people had

9 no authority, they were thieves, they had no officially-defined mission,

10 as far as you knew, in the Central Bosnia Operative Zone, isn't that

11 right?

12 A. Your Honours, I said that when the Croats were expelled from

13 Travnik, it was this group that went to the free territory under the

14 control of the HVO. In Travnik, they were in a unit called Rozebrandi,

15 and their status there was also undefined.

16 On their arrival in Vitez, I said I have no idea where they were.

17 I knew they were in hiding and that they asked for protection from the

18 commander of the Vitezovi, that is, Kraljevic, and they were with him.

19 Q. All right. But the point that I was making is that these people

20 were thieves and, as far as you knew, had absolutely no officially-defined

21 mission in the Central Bosnia Operative Zone, that they were just acting

22 as sometime members of the Vitezovi, right?

23 A. Well, that's how it turns out to be.

24 Q. Yes, all right. The author of this document also goes on, in the

25 middle of the page, to say that he supposedly received some instructions

Page 27069

1 expounding the place and the role of the CSIS in Central Bosnia in

2 concrete and unambiguous terms. Now, have you ever seen any such

3 instructions, Colonel?

4 A. No, never.

5 Q. And if we could turn to the next page, please. I'm going to

6 suggest to you, Colonel, that the next entry throws a lot of light upon

7 what these people were really about. In the middle of the page there, we

8 say -- we see that the observation is made that, being unable to establish

9 professional cooperation with the Vitez Operative Zone, and not having

10 during its entire existence received any kind of assistance by way of fuel

11 or things like that, the CSIS proceeded to steal electric power or to

12 connect illegally the electric power, and then deliberately to keep their

13 premises dim so the police wouldn't find out about it and disconnect it.

14 Now, were you ever aware that power was being diverted along these

15 lines, and these people were trying to stop the police from finding out

16 about it?

17 A. Your Honours, this is the first time I hear this. There's no

18 reason, because they had enough time to clear this up. And Mr. Kordic

19 would know about this, and Mr. Valenta would know about this, and Colonel

20 Blaskic would know about this. They could have solved this at a higher

21 level. All this about the SIS centre, I don't know any of it.

22 Q. All right. If we could go to the next page, there's an incident

23 that's described that supposedly involves you, Colonel. This incident

24 occurred on the 19th of December, 1993, and the allegation is made that

25 some of these SIS centre people turned up at a helicopter landing site in

Page 27070

1 Bucici, hoping to transport some computer equipment and other material,

2 and that when they arrived at the landing site, Colonel Blaskic's personal

3 bodyguards opened fire on them. And then you supposedly prevented them

4 from being present when the helicopter landed.

5 Is there -- can you throw any light on that incident, Colonel?

6 A. Your Honours, my task was -- that I had also the order of Colonel

7 Blaskic to -- only those persons who were on the list for the party for

8 Central Bosnia, that is, to allow only those persons who were on the list

9 for the party for Central Bosnia, to allow them to board the helicopter.

10 And I know that the list contained only the names of wounded and the

11 wounded only, and then it also said, "And if there is room for others,"

12 then the next one on the list. Not on a single list did figure Mijic or

13 Voloder or their team.

14 I only -- I saw them only once at Bucici when the helicopter

15 landed, and that very moment I ordered them off. There were allegedly to

16 go in the direction of Herzegovina. And with them they were carrying -- I

17 looked at what it was, it was computers, and at that very moment I ordered

18 that back. So once I turned them back, but they then came again. And I

19 believe that those parcels did leave, but I did not allow them to leave.

20 And I reported to Colonel Blaskic about it, telling him that that should

21 not happen again.

22 Q. The author of this document goes on to say that a computer

23 monitor, supposedly belonging to Boras Adjaip went missing, and that these

24 people supposedly contacted you, and you told them that you had -- that

25 they could sue either the Operative Zone or you personally, whichever

Page 27071

1 suited them. Is there any truth in that?

2 A. Your Honours, you can see for yourselves. In this, I am mentioned

3 in this document. I don't know where did Boras Adjaip get a computer or a

4 monitor. I do know at that time at the Princip, that is in Vitez, I mean

5 a company, were they together with Kraljevic and his, his small team where

6 they were stealing computers. And until I turned up at the helicopter,

7 they used to sell them down there in Herzegovina, using what channels I

8 don't know. But it is these computers, and in one case, a computer and a

9 monitor. And when --

10 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, this isn't important. It seems to me it

11 is going somewhere from the point. You were going to finish in 20

12 minutes.

13 MR. SAYERS: I'm going to finish in one minute, Your Honour, if I

14 may.

15 Q. The next comment and final comment is on page 9, sir, where

16 supposedly on January the 1st, 1994, the police received an order to bring

17 in these people and assign them to military duties to the 3rd Battalion of

18 the Viteska Brigade, and then certain other allegations are made after

19 that.

20 Let me just suggest to you that that reveals the truth of the

21 situation. It shows what really is going on, and that these people were

22 thieves and criminals trying to duck military service by pretending to be

23 carrying out some sort of unofficial, covert, civilian --

24 THE INTERPRETER: Slow down, Mr. Sayers, please.

25 MR. SAYERS:

Page 27072

1 Q. Some sort of unofficial, covert, civilian spying for a shadowy

2 organisation that had no official function whatsoever in Central Bosnia,

3 isn't that the case?

4 A. Your Honours, that's what it looks like indeed, because when we

5 realised what they were and who they were, then naturally they also had to

6 be assigned to the front lines, like everybody else. That is, they were

7 sent to the front line, where they had never been.

8 MR. SAYERS: Thank you. [Previous translation continues] ... Your

9 Honour.

10 Cross-examined by Mr. Kovacic:

11 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Palavra. I am Bozidar

12 Kovacic and I'm counsel for Mario Cerkez. I'm counsel for Mario Cerkez

13 with my colleague, Mr. Mikulicic. I also have some questions for you.

14 They won't take too long.

15 You said that you came to Vitez after you had to withdraw from

16 Travnik in June 1993; is that correct?

17 A. It is.

18 Q. You said that, for a short while before you were assigned to a new

19 duty at the military police -- with the military police, that a short

20 while then you spent at the defence line. Could you just briefly indicate

21 the exact locations.

22 A. Your Honours, I was in the area of responsibility of Travnik

23 Brigade, that is, at Prahulje, up there at Prahulje. I was also -- now,

24 what was that called? Gostinj, so up there. Bosnjakov Gaj. These are

25 the locations where I was, so that was the area of responsibility of the

Page 27073

1 Travnik Brigade.

2 Q. Colonel Palavra, you will agree with me that that area of

3 responsibility was outside the municipal -- Vitez municipal boundaries?

4 A. Yes. That is the municipality of Travnik.

5 Q. Thank you. At the time when you arrived in the Vitez territory,

6 until your assignment, how familiar were you with the situation in Vitez

7 with regard to the structure and other elements of the HVO functioning in

8 Vitez, especially in terms of the brigade?

9 A. Your Honours, I was not familiar at all.

10 Q. So is it then true that when you carried out the duties that you

11 did carry out in Travnik, because you were pushed out of there, you did

12 not have any relevant information about the HVO in general, the HVO in

13 general, and that would include the Vitez Brigade in Vitez?

14 A. Yes, indeed. That's right.

15 Q. Thank you. In Central Bosnia is it correct to say that the HVO

16 began to organise its brigades as of December 1992 onward?

17 A. I believe so.

18 Q. And before that, there were the municipal staffs. You told us

19 about them yourself.

20 A. That's right. That's right.

21 Q. Did you learn when you arrived in Vitez that the Vitez Brigade, in

22 contrast with almost all other brigades, was founded only as late as the

23 latter half of March 1993?

24 A. Believe me, I really don't know those dates.

25 Q. I see. You do not know the exact date.

Page 27074

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 27075

1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you ever learn that that brigade was founded later than other

3 brigades?

4 A. Yes, but I don't know when exactly.

5 Q. Thank you. But you no doubt know that that was much later in

6 comparison with other brigades?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Thank you. Did you, prior to that time -- or rather, in July, and

9 then especially in August, when you became the police commander, perhaps

10 in due course you received some information, an idea about the level of

11 structuring of the Vitez Brigade on the day when the conflict broke out

12 between the BH army and the HVO?

13 A. No.

14 Q. So you did not hear any stories about how the brigade was at a

15 very low organisational level at the time when the war began?

16 A. Your Honours, not only the Vitez Brigade; all the brigades were at

17 a low level.

18 Q. Thank you. You told us how in fact you were not in a position to

19 command your companies in Kiseljak and Zepce simply because you were

20 physically cut off from those towns since they were completely encircled

21 and they were practically commanded by local commanders -- I don't

22 know -- Rajic in Kiseljak and so on; is that correct?

23 A. Oh, yes, quite. Since it was impossible to communicate with units

24 of the 2nd Company in Kiseljak and the 3rd Company in Zepce, my

25 subordinate commanders were at the disposal, both at Rajic's and General

Page 27076

1 Lozancic's, at the time.

2 Q. Very well. I don't think there is any question about it. After

3 all, you did mention it and we already heard it umpteen times before the

4 Court. So will you please answer only with "yes" or "no." But the

5 commander of the Operative Zone was in Vitez; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And in the town itself, the 4th HVO Battalion was also

8 headquartered -- I mean, the 4th Battalion of the Military Police was in

9 Vitez too?

10 A. Yes. It was housed in the police building, with the police

11 administration on the upper floor. Those were the premises of the former

12 Territorial Defence, as far as I know.

13 Q. And that was the situation also before you came?

14 A. That's right.

15 Q. And finally, the command of the Vitez Brigade was also in Vitez?

16 A. Yes. The command of the Vitez Brigade was also in Vitez, in the

17 Hrvatski Dom.

18 Q. Which is a couple hundred metres from those other locations that

19 you mentioned?

20 A. Your Honours, it is all within 100-, 150-metre circle.

21 Q. Will you -- oh, excuse me. I am being too fast. Would you agree

22 with me, then, that insofar as communication was concerned between

23 different commands, in contrast with the situation that you used to have

24 when the commanders of military police with Kiseljak and Zepce, that in

25 this particular case there was not that problem in communication between

Page 27077

1 the Operative Zone, military police; military police and the Vitez

2 Brigade; the Vitez Brigade and the Operative Zone and the like?

3 A. Yes, I can agree with this. We could do it even if we did not

4 have any telecommunication means. We could do it on foot or with

5 couriers, so on and so forth.

6 Q. So in that regard, Vitez was under specifics [as interpreted]

7 because all the commands were located there?

8 A. Yes, that's quite right.

9 Q. You mentioned something. There was mention about the brigade

10 military police. Did you, at the time when you became the commander, get

11 any relevant information about a military police platoon attached to the

12 Vitez Brigade to provide security for the buildings and the like? Did you

13 have any information as to how that had been solved by that time, or

14 before your arrival there?

15 A. Your Honours, I don't really remember. You know, it was seven

16 years ago. But I know that the brigade platoons of the military police

17 had their specific tasks, and that was to secure the command posts, of the

18 brigades, that is, and to bring in to the brigades people under different

19 disciplinary sections. Those were their powers. And as for the curfew,

20 which was controlled by the military police at the time, that is, the

21 regional one, so all they did do was bring under custody, and the brigade

22 police. Those were their powers: Only bringing in within their own

23 brigade and command posts which they secured. Those were their only terms

24 of reference. All the rest was done by the brigade police.

25 Q. Perhaps now is the right time to ask you, since you mention it.

Page 27078

1 Did these duties that you mentioned were the mandate of the brigade

2 police, would it also cover what you call military police affairs?

3 A. Yes, some of them.

4 Q. Yes, yes, some of them. But there are other military police

5 affairs, aren't there?

6 THE INTERPRETER: The witness did not answer.

7 JUDGE MAY: We didn't get an answer to that question. What does

8 the question in fact mean, Mr. Kovacic?

9 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours. It must

10 have been my mistake.

11 Q. You mentioned that those were so-called military police affairs,

12 those that we mentioned: Bringing in soldiers, members of the brigade,

13 and security, providing security, looking after the safety of the

14 command. Is that so?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. So I'm talking in police terms. When you say "providing security

17 for the command," that means the building, the facility housing the

18 command, and personnel?

19 A. That's right. That was their task. And other military police

20 tasks -- for instance, escorting convoys, manning checkpoints -- that was

21 done by the regional police. The observations of the curfew, that was all

22 done by the regional police. That was not within the authority of the

23 brigade military police.

24 Q. Thank you. Mr. Palavra, tell us: Did you have an opportunity to

25 see, because it was all going on before you came there, but did you ever

Page 27079

1 see an order issued by the command of the 4th Battalion of the Military

2 Police which would -- addressing the platoon assigned to staff security

3 there, that that attached formally that platoon to the command of the

4 Vitez Brigade? Do you remember anything like that?

5 A. Your Honours, it was a long time ago, but I think that that is how

6 it was.

7 Q. But you are not quite sure?

8 A. I don't remember, I cannot really say yes or no. It was just too

9 long ago.

10 Q. So you do not know exactly from your personal experience whether

11 there was such an order?

12 A. I don't know. It's possible that there was, because I know that

13 the brigade police, not only of the Vitez Brigade but of the other

14 brigades as well, communicated with the command of the 4th Military Police

15 Battalion.

16 Q. Thank you. But at the time when you became the commander, is it

17 fair to say that there were certain ambiguities, that members of that

18 particular platoon had their own views, under whom they were and who was

19 their commander, that the brigade also had its requests with regard to

20 your command? Is that fair to say?

21 A. Yes, it is.

22 Q. I will show you a document -- no. Let me ask you this first: Do

23 you remember if you personally asked Blaskic to clarify the situation

24 toward the lines and define who is under whom, who commands whom?

25 A. Yes.

Page 27080

1 Q. Now I will show you a document. I will ask you to comment on it.

2 It is D91/2, order of Colonel Blaskic's of the 18th of August, 1993. Will

3 you have a look at this, please. My question to you is to round off this

4 set of questions and also on the basis of this document. This is at the

5 time when you were already the commander of the regional military police,

6 and you're obviously interested in this subject professionally. Would you

7 agree with me that, as of that day, there were no more problems and it was

8 evident who commanded the brigade police in Vitez?

9 A. Your Honours, not only in Vitez; in all the brigades.

10 Q. I mean those which were under the command of the Operative Zone.

11 A. That's right.

12 Q. And incidentally, since you mentioned others, were there any

13 similar problems in other brigades as well?

14 A. Yes, there were problems.

15 Q. Since those other brigades were in towns which were at some

16 distance, some completely cut off from the Operative Zone, would it be

17 correct to say that this situation was dissolved on a case-by-case basis,

18 depending on the possibilities, in view of the circumstances?

19 A. Yes, that's how it was. I agree.

20 Q. So, you will agree that, as regards the membership in formations

21 of the subordination of those platoons of the military police attached to

22 brigades, this situation in Central Bosnia was not necessarily identical

23 from one municipality to the other?

24 A. Yes, quite so.

25 Q. And I guess you will agree, in view of what we have just talked

Page 27081

1 about, and especially with regard to the time in the previous period and

2 the later period, that there was a difference?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 A. Your Honours, may I just add, that as original police, that is,

6 the 4th Military Police Battalion, looked -- provided the brigade,

7 platoons with patches, that is, with military police insignia. They

8 received them from us.

9 Q. In view of what you have just said, does that mean that

10 administratively, in any case administratively, those members, although

11 they were attached at some point, clearly attached to brigade commanders,

12 but administratively, they were under the command of the regional

13 battalion?

14 A. Yes, quite, because at that time, brigades could not issue the

15 military police -- patches to military police, and they got those patches

16 from the 4th Battalion military police, and the 4th Battalion of the

17 military police received them from the police administration with a seat

18 in Ljubuski.

19 Q. Does that also mean that those military policemen from those

20 platoons, in those platoons, their rights, exercised those rights -- or

21 rather, their payrolls, that they were on the payrolls of the 4th

22 Battalion, in your particular case?

23 A. Yes, indeed. And all the training, and all the training that was

24 organised was also -- also involved the brigade police.

25 Q. Were they issued with weapons and ammunition and other gear, if

Page 27082

1 you remember it, of course?

2 A. I believe that many of them were issued with those by the military

3 police, but because the military police lacked them, too, some of them may

4 have been issued with the relevant gear by the brigade.

5 Q. Do you remember, since you received all sorts of reports, what

6 kind of a stamp did they use when they sent their reports, either to

7 brigade commanders or the 4th Battalion, that is, the commander of the 4th

8 Battalion? Is it true that they had a stamp which showed clearly that

9 they belonged to the military police?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. I'm trying to cut this short, if possible.

12 In addition to military police affairs performed by the military

13 police and that we touched upon, and one can find it in detail in a

14 document that was shown yesterday, Z2340, and I do not wish -- I do not

15 want to waste any more time. This is a document which describes police

16 province, police jurisdiction. Yet you told us about this, that the

17 military police discharged some business of typical military units. You

18 even mentioned, if I'm right, that you intervened in a number of

19 situations when the front line was in peril or when it was broken through,

20 when it fell, and that your units then went at those critical points in

21 order to stop the breakthrough of the adversary forces; is that correct?

22 A. Correct.

23 Q. But these are purely combat activities, isn't it?

24 A. Yes. And there was such an incident when there was a convoy

25 leading to Novi -- on its way to Nova Bila, the so-called Bijeli Put, the

Page 27083

1 white pass. At that time, the Krizancevo Selo was victimised, that is,

2 the Muslim forces had attacked it. And as soon as the convoy had got on,

3 that is, the white pass, the members of the military police did, did not

4 sleep for three nights because that very moment they went out to

5 intervene, that is, stop the Muslim attacks, and they went directly to the

6 front line.

7 Q. The members of your military police in such actions, you

8 personally had to order them to go to such and such location with such and

9 such task; is that correct?

10 A. Of course. Who else would do that?

11 Q. And who did issue orders to you?

12 A. It was Colonel Blaskic who issued orders to me.

13 Q. Colonel Palavra, was Mario Cerkez authorised to issue such orders?

14 A. No. Not only Mario Cerkez, but no brigade -- or rather, every

15 brigade commander had to seek authority of Colonel Blaskic, and only

16 Colonel Blaskic would then transmit to me whatever was necessary.

17 Q. I suppose -- yes, I see that I'm too fast.

18 I suppose that you must remember some of the situations when the

19 brigade commander asked for some assistance in order to, in order to save

20 a part of the front line, and that requested assistance from you, and that

21 Colonel Blaskic asked it from you. Is that correct? You don't have to

22 give us examples.

23 A. Yes, it is correct.

24 Q. Is it also possible that, in some emergency, you acted on the

25 direct order of Mario Cerkez's?

Page 27084

1 A. No. There would always be somebody from the Operative Zone,

2 whether the chief or Colonel Blaskic or the duty -- the operations officer

3 on duty, somebody had to do that.

4 Q. In point of fact, according to some information available to us,

5 you took great care, very meticulously, that there be an order, a very

6 precise order determining the area, the task, and so forth; is that

7 correct?

8 A. Yes, indeed. I cannot do something which is vague.

9 Q. Did you at any moment -- or rather, you said at a moment that

10 Blaskic could not have ordered an investigation into criminal offences.

11 Do you think Cerkez could have done so? Do you think Cerkez's authority

12 was different from that of Blaskic in that realm?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Thank you. Mr. Palavra, let me ask you first, you had an

15 assistant besides the Santic who we have mentioned. I think we also

16 mentioned Jukic, a pre-war policeman, who knew -- who was familiar with

17 the law and criminal proceedings?

18 A. Yes, Marijan Jukic.

19 Q. And the department Jukic was in was engaged in criminal

20 prosecution; is that correct?

21 A. He was in the crime military police.

22 Q. As the commander, were you familiar with the fact that every

23 citizen under the then legislation adopted by the Republic of Bosnia and

24 Herzegovina and the Croatian community as well, that under the then valid

25 legislation, every citizen, or every soldier in this case, including the

Page 27085

1 brigade commander, could submit a criminal report if he knew that a crime

2 had been committed; is that correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And such a criminal report in the case of Vitez would have been

5 submitted to your crime service; is that correct?

6 A. Yes. And then this service would have sent it on to the military

7 prosecutor's office at that time if there were indications or grounds to

8 suspect, and that a report had to be submitted.

9 Q. To avoid any misunderstanding, if a report was received from

10 anyone, any citizen, including Cerkez, your crime detection service would

11 have looked at the evidence, clues, traces, and so on, and processed

12 these; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And in any case, would have submitted a report to the public

15 prosecutor?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. The military public prosecutor?

18 A. Yes. We did that on a weekly and monthly basis.

19 Q. Colonel Palavra, the military prosecutor's office as an organ

20 under the law functioned in Vitez. You mentioned Mr. Mario Jurkovic a

21 while ago.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Of course, in the given circumstances as far as was possible?

24 A. Yes, yes.

25 Q. And the military court existed?

Page 27086

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And there were cases where proceedings were instituted; is that

3 correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Do you remember the approximate number of criminal reports

6 submitted by your service from August 1993 until the end of 1993 to the

7 public prosecutor?

8 A. Your Honours, I don't remember, but I know that certainly there

9 were over 500. I don't know the exact number. I think it was about 546,

10 perhaps, but I can't remember.

11 Q. Mr. Palavra, in any case, we are talking about several hundred and

12 not several dozen; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. When we say "submitted to the public prosecutor," for the sake of

15 the record, we are referring to the military prosecutor; is that correct?

16 A. Yes. It was the military prosecutor at the time.

17 Q. Is it correct that your service processing criminal reports, when

18 a criminal offence was reported to you, that you processed every report

19 you received from anyone; is that correct?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Do you remember that you also received such reports from the

22 brigade command, either through their reports on incidents or through

23 especially written reports; is that correct?

24 A. Yes, I remember that. There were cases like that.

25 Q. For the sake of the record, let me mention a document Z1245.4 that

Page 27087

1 was presented yesterday. It was a report from the 2nd Vitez Battalion,

2 and you said that it referred to, among other things, the car thefts, and

3 you said that Anto Furundzija had been punished for it; is that correct?

4 And my question is the following: Was that incident treated as a

5 disciplinary infraction or as a criminal offence; do you remember that?

6 A. I think it was both a disciplinary infraction, but also a report

7 was submitted against Furundzija.

8 Q. Thank you. Colonel Palavra, during your work in Vitez from the

9 summer of 1993 onwards, did you have occasion to meet Mario Cerkez and to

10 get to know him personally?

11 A. Your Honours, yes. We met at the regular meetings on Fridays or

12 Thursdays, or whenever Colonel Blaskic convened the meeting, and when I

13 took over the duty of commander of the 4th Battalion of the military

14 police, I visited all the commanders of the brigades on the -- in the area

15 of Central Bosnia, in Vitez and Novi Travnik and the part of Travnik and

16 in Busovaca. I think that on two or three occasions, I talked to Mario

17 Cerkez, who was the commander of the Vitez Brigade, about the status of

18 the military police and what should be done further to, to avoid any

19 disagreements.

20 I have to admit that he received me very politely and supported me

21 in everything I said. He agreed with my ideas.

22 Q. Thank you. Colonel Palavra, you have talked a lot about Vitez,

23 about crime there. Would you agree that in Vitez there was in fact a

24 structure that was interested in order and discipline, and this included

25 both civilians and soldiers, people of importance; but that there was also

Page 27088

1 another group which we could call either close to crime or criminals. Is

2 that correct?

3 A. Your Honours, that is correct because the area of Vitez,

4 unfortunately, after the attack of the Muslim forces on Zenica, Travnik,

5 Kakanj, and Fojnica, many refugees arrived in the area of the Vitez

6 municipality which was under HVO control, and there were all kinds of

7 things going on.

8 Q. Thank you. Colonel Palavra, in your opinion, throughout this time

9 that you knew Cerkez and all the problems you had in the second half of

10 1993 in Vitez, where would you put Cerkez, into which of these two groups,

11 in the first or the second group, or somewhere in between? Can you say

12 that, because you knew what the situation was?

13 A. Your Honours, had Mario Cerkez been different from what he was, he

14 would probably not have been the commander of the Vitez Brigade because I

15 know Colonel Blaskic well, and he would not have allowed it. Cerkez was

16 respected in Vitez, as far as I know.

17 Q. Tell us, Colonel Palavra, did you ever hear any rumours to the

18 effect that Cerkez or his men had committed any war crimes, any kind of

19 war crimes?

20 A. Your Honours, that's a ridiculous question. No, no. Why would

21 they commit crimes?

22 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Perhaps, if the Court will allow, I

23 can put a simple question to the witness.

24 Q. Yesterday there was a question about a certain Mr. Mato Zeko, and

25 you spoke about him, but I'm not interested in him, I'm interested in

Page 27089

1 something else. Was that the only person of the same name and surname

2 that you knew? Was there anyone else with the same name and surname in

3 the area where you lived and worked?

4 A. Excuse me. Your Honours, the name of Mato and the surname of Zeko

5 belonged to one, single individual that I know of. There is, however,

6 someone called Ivica Zeko. So the first name is "Ivica" and the last name

7 "Zeko." That person also exists, and during the wartime events in

8 Central Bosnia, that person is now in the Ministry of Defence of the army

9 of the federation, that's Ivica Zeko. But the only Mato Zeko I know is

10 that one. There may be others, but I don't know about them.

11 Q. Thank you. So this Ivica Zeko that you mentioned was, if I'm

12 correct, the assistant for VOS affairs with Blaskic?

13 A. Yes, that's correct.

14 Q. The assistants that you mentioned earlier at the level of the

15 brigade command, the brigade commander had several assistants; is that

16 correct? You knew that. And he had, among others, an assistant for SIS;

17 is that correct?

18 A. Yes, he did at the time.

19 Q. And you in fact met the late Borislav Josic, who was killed soon

20 after you arrived?

21 A. Unfortunately, I never met him, but I have heard about him. I

22 have heard a lot of good things about him.

23 Q. A lot of good things?

24 A. Yes, that's correct.

25 Q. The assistant for SIS, according to his function, would you agree

Page 27090

1 that his basic task was to inform his commander, in this case the brigade

2 commander, to keep him informed about everything?

3 A. Yes, that's correct.

4 Q. I see I'm talking too fast.

5 Is it correct that, according to his function, this assistant

6 would have another boss?

7 A. Yes, that's correct, and that would be the assistant for security

8 at the Operative Zone of Central Bosnia at the time, and that was Ante

9 Sliskovic.

10 Q. Does that mean, Colonel, that if the assistant, in this case the

11 assistant for SIS, contacted you, you would not know whether he was acting

12 on behalf of the brigade commander or on behalf of his other superior in

13 the functional line?

14 A. Could you please repeat the question? I don't understand it.

15 Q. I apologise. I was not clear enough. The assistant for SIS, for

16 example, he comes to you with a request, and you do not necessarily know

17 whether he is asking this as the subordinate of the brigade commander or

18 as the subordinate in this other line, as the assistant in the Operative

19 Zone.

20 A. I did know.

21 Q. What was the criterion?

22 A. The criterion was I could be contacted by the assistant for the

23 Operative Zone.

24 Q. Could he have authorised his colleague in the brigade to do

25 something on his behalf?

Page 27091

1 A. Yes, but I would have known about this.

2 Q. That was my question. So you would have had to have been informed

3 about this?

4 A. That's correct.

5 Q. Thank you. One more detail and I will be finished. I would like

6 to make use of your presence here. I know that you have on average about

7 600 men under your command, so you couldn't have known them all, but do

8 you remember in the military police units in Vitez a person named Ivica

9 Markovic from Kotor Varos who was a member of the military police?

10 A. Your Honours, I do not know. There was a Markovic who worked in

11 the crime detection service, but I think he was in Zenica. I don't know.

12 I don't remember.

13 Q. Maybe you can assist us while you are here.

14 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour, that is a person who

15 was mentioned by the first witnesses who testified here who were arrested

16 in town and taken to the SDK, so I thought maybe we could see if it was

17 the same person, but evidently this witness doesn't know. I have no

18 further questions.

19 Thank you, Colonel Palavra.

20 Thank you, Your Honour.

21 JUDGE MAY: Colonel Palavra, that concludes the questions you're

22 going to be asked. I said at the outset that if there was anything you

23 wanted to add, we would hear you. We will do so. You don't have to add

24 anything, of course, and only deal with the relevant matters. If there is

25 anything relevant you would like to add, we'll hear it, or otherwise

Page 27092

1 you're free to go. Is there anything you want to add?

2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, thank you, Your Honour. Thank

3 you very much.

4 JUDGE MAY: Well, thank you for coming, Colonel Palavra. You are

5 free to go.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

7 [The witness withdrew]

8 MR. SAYERS: If I might just raise one issue, Your Honour. The

9 batting order and witness statements, we don't have a definitive batting

10 order for the witnesses who are going to be testifying next week.

11 JUDGE MAY: That's one of the matters we've got to resolve in the

12 next day.

13 Mr. Scott, which witnesses have you got here now?

14 MR. SCOTT: I think we're prepared, Your Honour, to put

15 Mr. Morsink and Mr. Husic on this afternoon.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We should be able to deal with them without too

17 much difficulty.

18 MR. SCOTT: That's right, and that would be it for the week.

19 JUDGE MAY: And that would be it for the week. We will then have

20 to consider next week which witnesses, first of all, are to be called.

21 You should let the Defence and also the Court know as soon as possible,

22 like this afternoon.

23 MR. SCOTT: I think this afternoon, probably, if we don't --

24 presumably we don't have court tomorrow, then we would let the Chamber

25 know this afternoon.

Page 27093

1 JUDGE MAY: We'll see. I anticipate we'll sit this afternoon,

2 this afternoon and tomorrow, in order to try and deal with the Zagreb

3 documents. If that is so, it means that we can advance all the

4 proceedings for the remainder of the case.

5 MR. SCOTT: The only problem, Your Honour, as Mr. Nice mentioned

6 earlier in the week, is that, to be perfectly honest, although we've tried

7 to accelerate our preparations, much of our schedule is still hinged on

8 certain matters being done on Monday.

9 JUDGE MAY: Let us -- we'll review that this afternoon, but we

10 have in mind to accelerate things in order that we can get the Defence

11 rejoinder evidence in, and the speeches, by the end of the year.

12 MR. SCOTT: I can only tell the Court that some of the materials

13 might not be ready by tomorrow.

14 JUDGE MAY: Let's see how we go. We'll sit again at half past two

15 o'clock.

16 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.51 p.m.

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 27094

1 --- On resuming at 2.34 p.m.

2 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, I gather there's something you wanted to

3 raise before we get to the witness?

4 MR. NICE: Yes, if I may. It doesn't concern the witness or his

5 evidence at all.

6 The documents that fall for consideration next week were, of

7 course, provided to the Defence a couple of weeks ago. In the intervening

8 weeks the Court wasn't sitting, I inquired via your legal officer whether

9 the Court would itself want copies of the documents or whether it would at

10 that stage want any schedules, and no request for the documents was made,

11 and therefore they haven't been copied. It's quite a big exercise to copy

12 three bundles and add to the weight of paper.

13 But it occurs to me as possible that the Chamber would probably or

14 might benefit by having not just schedules, which can be in final form, I

15 think, this afternoon or certainly tomorrow morning, but might benefit

16 from having the opportunity to look at the documents ahead of next week's

17 hearings. If so, then I'll trigger their copying straight away, and then

18 they might be available -- in fact, I think they could probably be

19 available for the Court tomorrow morning. And I understand the Court was

20 concerned as to how tomorrow morning could be used, and that is at least

21 one way in which it might be used.

22 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We will, after we've heard the evidence today,

23 need to look at all the housekeeping matters.

24 MR. NICE: Of course.

25 JUDGE MAY: But yes, I think copies would be helpful.

Page 27095

1 MR. NICE: Okay, I'll get that done, then, straight away. Thank

2 you for allowing me to raise that.

3 And then I think the witness should probably take the solemn

4 declaration again, but he's probably bound by the first time.

5 JUDGE MAY: He's bound by the first one he took; no need to take

6 it again.

7 MR. NICE: And I think, technically, the position is that the only

8 exhibit for which we wanted to recall is now already in by virtue of the

9 formal statement, subject to the right of Mr. Kovacic for

10 cross-examination. So I don't think there's anything for me to deal with

11 because the exhibit is now in.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Colonel Morsink, thank you for coming back.

13 There is, I'm afraid, one matter of evidence outstanding which was

14 overlooked on the first occasion when you gave evidence. It's in relation

15 to a list of detainees. It is our Exhibit Z591, [transcript read in

16 error"7591], not that you're troubled with that, but one counsel has asked

17 to ask you some questions about it, and we've allowed him to do so.

18 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you, Your Honours.

19 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, of course, you are, as you know,

20 restricted to simply this issue, 591, the list.

21 MR. KOVACIC: Absolutely, Your Honour, yes.

22 JUDGE MAY: It may be helpful if the witness had the exhibit, so

23 you knew what we've been talking about.

24 THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me, Your Honour, could it also be put on

25 the ELMO or could the interpreters get copies?

Page 27096

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes, the interpreters haven't got a copy. Is there a

2 copy to be put on the ELMO? Thank you.

3 WITNESS: HENDRIK MORSINK [Recalled]

4 JUDGE MAY: Colonel Morsink, I don't know if you remember that

5 list.

6 A. I do remember it, Your Honour.

7 JUDGE MAY: I think it may have your writing on it.

8 A. That's correct.

9 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps we could begin, since it's in Dutch, if you

10 would translate it for us.

11 A. The translation is, "The list of Muslims being taken prisoner by

12 the HVO Vitez."

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Kovacic.

14 MR. KOVACIC: Just for a matter of record, I don't know whether it

15 was the error, but the number of this exhibit was mentioned, 7591. It is

16 actually --

17 JUDGE MAY: Zeta, Zeta 591, or zee.

18 MR. KOVACIC: Okay. Then it is correct so we have a clear

19 record.

20 Cross-examined by Mr. Kovacic:

21 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Colonel Morsink. I do apologise

22 for making you come again, but we have a document which you supplied to

23 the Prosecution at a later stage; we thought we should ask you some

24 questions about it.

25 Last time, during your testimony here, you used some notes as an

Page 27097

1 aid. Do you remember that?

2 A. I do remember it, but I brought them with me, the notes.

3 Q. You are not using them now, are you?

4 A. As long as I don't have to need -- use them, I'd rather do it on

5 the basis of my memory, if that's correct.

6 Q. Thank you very much. So we shall talk only about this list. You

7 made your solemn declaration. We already saw it. You attached the list

8 to it. Now, do you confirm that the list that you have before you is the

9 list which you personally handed over to the Prosecution?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. Colonel Morsink, and who did you get this list from?

12 A. I got this list from the HVO representative, the liaison officer,

13 Borislav Jozic.

14 Q. Could you please -- no. It seems that I have to wait for the

15 interpreters. Could you perhaps roughly specify when you received it from

16 Borislav Jozic?

17 A. I can't exactly specify the date, but it was somewhere in the end

18 of April 1993.

19 Q. Could we relate it perhaps to some events? Would you know if it

20 was at the time while there were still some detained Muslims in Vitez, or

21 was it after their release?

22 A. As I recall it, there were still quite a lot of people in prisons

23 on both sides, and we were busy trying to get a clear picture of prisoners

24 in all prisons, and this list is part of our attempt to get a clear

25 picture.

Page 27098

1 Q. That was doubtless at the time when a commission, who Jozic was a

2 member of the commission for ceasefire, exchange of prisoners, and so on

3 and so forth, that commission had already been founded and was already

4 working; would that be correct?

5 A. As I recall it, it was more or less in the time that we switched

6 from the Busovaca joint commission on to the new established local joint

7 commission.

8 Q. Could you specify if at the time when the late Boro Jozic gave you

9 this list, had you already -- was it after some other meetings with Boro

10 Jozic and other members of the commission? That is, did you know at that

11 moment that he was already on that commission?

12 A. Are you referring to the local commission where I was -- the

13 commission I was heading and there was also a representative from the

14 other side?

15 Q. Yes. Yes, that commission.

16 A. Part of every day's discussion was, amongst other things, the

17 situation of prisoners in the whole area.

18 Q. Colonel Morsink, would you agree that there is absolutely no doubt

19 that your communication with the late Boro Jozic -- and you tell us that

20 he gave you this list -- that your communication is based on the fact that

21 you know him; he was introduced to you as a member of the commission on

22 behalf of the Croat side, that is, the HVO?

23 A. That's correct.

24 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] And to really be on the safe side, I

25 should like to ask the engineers to show a tape. It is our early Exhibit

Page 27099

1 118/2, adduced with witness Palavra, and it contains a short statement by

2 Mr. Jozic to a television reporter. It does not take -- we shall only

3 show the first part of it, and it is only a minute and 16 seconds. Could

4 the technical booth please show us the tape.

5 [Videotape played]

6 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Yes. We can stop here now. Could

7 we only have the image on the screen, please.

8 Q. Mr. Morsink, do you recognise this gentleman?

9 A. Yes. I recognise him as Mr. Borislav Jozic.

10 Q. And that is the person who gave you the list?

11 A. Yes.

12 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13 We do not need the tape anymore. Could the registry please give

14 the witness the transcript of the video. Perhaps we can put it on the

15 ELMO so that everybody can see it.

16 Q. So I'd like to draw your attention to the first paragraph in the

17 answer of Borislav Jozic. So the first paragraph is the journalist and

18 the second one is the answer. And here he says -- the text is in English,

19 so everybody can read it.

20 Colonel Morsink, do you agree with the -- what is said in the

21 first passage of this statement? Do you agree that this first paragraph

22 in the statement -- the rest is not, I think, as important -- is that

23 correct, that first paragraph?

24 A. You mean the introduction by the journalist?

25 Q. No, no. I mean the answer, the first passage, the first paragraph

Page 27100

1 of Mr. Jozic's answer.

2 A. I think that's correct, yes.

3 Q. So that is correct, right? Now, if you look at the next

4 paragraph, will you please read it? I'm sorry. Perhaps I'm wasting your

5 time, but I think it is very important, especially the sentence in the

6 middle, which refers to location.

7 Colonel Morsink, do you agree that it transpires from this

8 statement by the late Borislav Jozic, with regard to the event that he's

9 talking about, deals with the release of prisoners from one of the

10 locations that were mentioned, and that is the location in Dubravica?

11 A. I don't understand your question. I'll read the sentence.

12 JUDGE MAY: Let me get it straight. Yes. The question is -- is

13 this the question, that Jozic was talking about the release of prisoners

14 from Dubravica? Yes, that's what -- you didn't ask the witness. That's

15 what the document says.

16 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, my idea was to see whether the witness

17 could recognise, since there were a couple of locations, and he said in

18 original statement that he knew there were a couple of locations.

19 JUDGE MAY: What is it you want the witness to deal with?

20 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] After that, I will show the witness

21 the list of Dubravica detainees, and we shall compare it with his list.

22 JUDGE MAY: Why don't you do that.

23 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] But I nevertheless would like to

24 seek an answer to my question, if I may.

25 Q. Colonel Morsink, do you remember that detainees were kept at

Page 27101

1 several locations in Vitez?

2 A. That's correct; in Vitez and outside the town of Vitez.

3 Q. Do you remember if the school in Dubravica was one of those

4 locations?

5 A. Yes, I remember that.

6 Q. Do you agree that the only location where detainees were kept in

7 the building of the school was precisely this one in Dubravica, that there

8 is no other school which was used as a place of detention?

9 A. I can't tell about other towns or vicinities. I think Dubravica

10 is that small that I agree that this is probably the only school in

11 Dubravica, but there were certainly more schools in the area.

12 Q. You're referring to the area of Vitez. Dubravica is a part of

13 Vitez. Thank you.

14 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Could the registry then help me

15 distribute the next document.

16 Q. And while it is being distributed, perhaps I could ask you the

17 following, Colonel Morsink: Do you know anything from that list that was

18 given you who are these individuals? What is their status? Are they

19 civilians or military?

20 A. I'm not sure, but by the name, I can tell you that they are

21 probably only male prisoners; and by the age or the year of birth, I can

22 tell you that the age is somewhere between 16 and I think 75 or 77.

23 Q. And you will agree with us that an overwhelming majority are of

24 military age, able-bodied men, judging by their date of birth. Do you

25 agree with that?

Page 27102

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 27103

1 A. I think the majority of this list, that's correct, that's an age

2 that could mean that they can be a soldier.

3 Q. Right. Now, you have before you a list of members of the BiH army

4 from the municipality of Vitez. This list was given the Defence by the

5 government of Bosnia-Herzegovina at our request, and on lists -- there it

6 lists some -- features 3.623 names who, during the war, were members of

7 the BiH army and served at some point in time in that army. Now I should

8 like to ask you to look at your list, the list that you brought along, and

9 look at the name under "1." It is a certain individual named Hajrudin

10 Zisko, son of Mehmet. Have you found it, number one?

11 A. It's hard to read on my list.

12 Q. Mine is slightly better. You can see it, at any rate. This is a

13 regular exhibit.

14 Now, take this roster of the army, the big one, and turn to the

15 last page. The big one, yes, and turn to the last page. In the first

16 column, you have numbers, and then will you look at a person under 3613,

17 3613, Hajrudin Zisko. We also have the personal identity number showing

18 us the date of birth, and that is one and the same person.

19 A. The name is the same, and the date is also the same.

20 Q. And the father's name.

21 Now, we can show other such examples. For instance -- do you have

22 the BiH army's list? Yes, you do. Look at number 59, please, on the

23 first page of the army list, Dervis Jahija Ahmic, we again have the

24 personal identity number with the date of birth, and you will find him,

25 too. That's a person under number four of the list that you brought, also

Page 27104

1 on your page number one, under number four.

2 A. It's again the same name and the same date as on the army's list.

3 Q. Same father's name and same date of birth, isn't it?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And so on and so forth. I can quote, however, ordinal numbers in

6 Mr. Morsink's list, for instance, example 7, 8, 11, and there are some

7 others. There is no point in wasting time. I think the documents speak

8 for themselves. But there's the question --

9 JUDGE MAY: Just before we go on, let us get the status of these

10 documents. Is there any objection to the production of this list?

11 MR. NICE: I don't think I've ever seen it before, and I don't

12 know where it comes from, and I'm not sure what its purpose is at the

13 moment. If it's going to do no more than confirm that which the Colonel

14 has already said, namely, that many of the people on this list of his were

15 soldiers, it doesn't seem to me it takes matters very much further. If

16 the inverse exercise is being attempted, that is to say, if the reality is

17 that Mr. Kovacic is seeking by cross-examination to validate this list, it

18 seems to be an improper use of the witness and if he'd asked me about it,

19 I would probably have been able to agree.

20 JUDGE MAY: I don't anticipate that he's seeking to do that. For

21 the moment, let it have an exhibit number, and if there's some objection,

22 we can look at it again.

23 THE REGISTRAR: The document will be numbered D153/2.

24 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, no doubt you've been through these two

25 lists. Can you give us the total number that you say appear from the army

Page 27105

1 list on the present list?

2 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] No, no, Your Honours, not yet.

3 We're still at it. I found 30 something, but evidently there are more of

4 them. We have some problems with reading them, but we've fed it into the

5 computer the other day, and we are preparing a longer list. But we shall

6 enclose it with the documentation.

7 However, now I should also like to adduce two more documents which

8 will help, help us establish the authenticity of the list. No, one

9 document, sorry. I do not think that the witness can validate the list.

10 This is only for the Court and for my learned friend. It is a letter of

11 the Bosnia-Herzegovina embassy, sending this list to me, and evidently

12 this is being done at my request. I do have some early copies of that

13 correspondence.

14 Could it then be merely attached to this exhibit just as part of

15 the exhibit, or perhaps it should be given another number, I don't know.

16 JUDGE MAY: It may be simpler to have another number.

17 THE REGISTRAR: D154/2.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

19 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Now I should like to produce yet

20 another list and ask Colonel Morsink to look at it after he confirmed to

21 us that there were detainees in Dubravica.

22 I'm sorry, I mixed things up. Will you please leave the list of

23 Dubravica names with Colonel -- the list of the BiH army and 153/2; the

24 witness should have all those lists, please.

25 THE REGISTRAR: Last document will be numbered D155/2.

Page 27106

1 JUDGE MAY: Before we go any further, what is this document,

2 Mr. Kovacic?

3 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, we do not have the

4 translation of this document, but all that needs to be translated is the

5 first line, and I will read it in Croatian and the interpreters can

6 interpret it. Oh, no, excuse me, we do have the translation. This is a

7 list of persons detained in Dubravica.

8 JUDGE MAY: Where did you get this one from?

9 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I found it myself in Vitez sometime

10 in the beginning of 1998, in the early days of our investigation.

11 My only question -- I have only two questions to ask the witness

12 about this list. May I, Your Honour?

13 Q. Colonel Morsink, did you ever get this list from anyone from the

14 HVO or the BiH army while you worked on the commission that we mentioned a

15 while ago? Does it look familiar to you, that is what I'm trying to ask

16 you. Have you seen it before?

17 MR. KOVACIC: We have just discovered a typing error. The date of

18 that list should be 30 April, not April 4 on the translation. On the

19 original, of course, it is original?

20 A. I don't recall that I saw this list before.

21 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Would you agree with me that it is -- there is an objective

23 possibility for this list to include some of the same names that we saw on

24 the list of the BiH army, and that those same names figure on this list of

25 detainees in Dubravica?

Page 27107

1 I'll show you. For instance, this last list that we've given you,

2 persons detained in Dubravica, under "3" we have Smajo Avdic, son of Mujo,

3 born in 1942, and that same person figures also in this list of BiH army

4 members on page 3, ordinal number 183.

5 A. It looks like the same name to me.

6 Q. And let us take yet another example. In this Dubravica list,

7 individual under "5," Hasan Sipcic, and in this list of BiH army soldiers

8 is on page 37 under "2922."

9 A. It again looks like the same name to me.

10 Q. And then also person under "7."

11 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] I believe, Your Honours, that there

12 is really no need to go through this whole list, because there are quite a

13 number of them and we shall refer to this in our closing argument.

14 Q. Why I'm asking you all these questions, Colonel Morsink, let us go

15 back to your list. Do you know -- did Jozic tell you anything that these

16 299 persons are a list of people detained in one location or several

17 locations? What does this list represent? Of course, it refers to

18 detained persons, but from where? Did Jozic tell you anything about this?

19 A. I do not recall that he told me specifically to what location this

20 list referred. He was more or less responsible to, to make lists of the

21 whole Vitez area, and I do not recall whether he told me that this list

22 referred to only one specific location.

23 Q. Mr. Morsink, it seems to me that it follows from your testimony,

24 and please correct me if I'm wrong, that the Dubravica location was

25 controlled by the Vitezovi Special Purpose Unit; is that correct?

Page 27108

1 A. I recall that you asked me that before, and if I'm correct, I

2 answered that I recall that and I still recall that, that the guardsmen

3 were wearing special insignia on the shoulders, and according to those

4 insignia, they were members of military police. I can't say whether this

5 was the Vitezovi unit or any other military police unit.

6 Q. At that time, were you able to distinguish HVO units by uniform,

7 units within the HVO, who were the military police, the Vitezovi, the

8 Cerko [phoen] Brigade, the Vitez Brigade? Did you know about it? Did you

9 have enough knowledge of it at the time?

10 A. Certainly not enough knowledge to identify them all, but I was

11 aware who was supposed to be a military policeman and who not.

12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, the cross-examination was supposed to

13 refer to this list. We went through all these other matters before.

14 There is other evidence about it, and I don't think we should detain the

15 Colonel for this sort of cross-examination. Have you got anything else

16 you want to ask about the list?

17 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Only two or three technical matters

18 related to the list.

19 Q. Colonel Morsink, can you remember where Boro Jozic gave you the

20 list, in what location and what place, especially in what place? Was it

21 at a meeting or while you were going around the terrain or in Dubravica

22 when you were there?

23 A. Normally, we got these lists from both sides when they were

24 prepared during the morning meeting at the ECMM house near the BritBat

25 battalion base. So there was our own ECMM house in Bila.

Page 27109

1 Q. And just one more question. At these meetings where these lists

2 were often presented, Boro Jozic was always present exclusively as a

3 member of the commission?

4 A. I don't understand what you -- what you're referring to.

5 Q. I apologise. Boro Jozic was present at that meeting as one of the

6 members, not as an observer or a guest who happened to be there or someone

7 whose role was simply to bring along a piece of paper. His function was

8 that he was a member of the commission?

9 A. That's correct. He was the liaison officer assigned by the

10 brigade commander of the HVO brigade in Vitez, so he was

11 representing -- at least, that was my impression -- representing the HVO

12 brigade in Vitez during all these meetings.

13 Q. Did you ever ask him explicitly whether he was representing the

14 whole of the HVO in Vitez, the HVO Operative Zone under Blaskic's

15 command? You knew -- well, let us divide this question in parts. You

16 knew that he was an officer from the Vitez brigade; is that correct?

17 There is no doubt about that?

18 A. That's correct.

19 Q. Did you ever formally establish whose representative -- I

20 apologise to the interpreters. Did you ever, for the sake of the minutes,

21 try to establish that Boro Jozic, and that is what I am suggesting to you,

22 at those meetings was a representative of the Operative Zone? I will ask

23 just one more question about this and then I'll be finished.

24 A. According to my knowledge, he was only representing the brigade,

25 since Mr. Cerkez wrote a letter of accommodation to appoint him as his

Page 27110

1 representative, the same as the BiH side did, and on the level of the HVO

2 Operational Zone we had a special liaison officer.

3 Q. But not a member of the commission; you did not have a member of

4 the commission at the level of the Operational Zone. The only

5 representative on the HVO side was Boro Jozic; do we agree on that?

6 A. For Vitez matters, yes, I agree.

7 Q. Yes, of course. We are talking about Vitez matters. So the only

8 representative for Vitez matters on behalf of the HVO, the entire HVO

9 side, without any distinctions, was Boro Jozic; there were no other

10 representatives of the HVO present?

11 A. That's not fully correct, since during some occasions the brigade

12 commander, accompanied by some other officers, showed up himself, so it's

13 not always only Mr. Jozic. But I do not recall another individual being a

14 representative for the brigade commander.

15 Q. Mr. Morsink, let us draw a distinction between two things: One

16 were the meetings and the other was the commission. You talked about the

17 work of the commission, so we were talking about the meetings referring to

18 the work of the commission, not all the other meetings. So as a member of

19 the commission, the only one on the HVO -- on behalf of the HVO was Boro

20 Jozic, and the documents show this. Do you hold a different opinion?

21 A. I don't agree that you can make a clear distinction between the

22 work of the commission and meeting brigade commanders. We had to do a lot

23 of work on the ground in the whole area and we met brigade commanders

24 several times, twice or three times a day. It was also the work of the

25 commission. I'm sorry, Your Honour.

Page 27111

1 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, we've already exhausted this topic.

2 MR. KOVACIC: Okay. I think I understand the point.

3 [Interpretation] I have no further questions. Thank you for your

4 testimony. Thank you, Colonel Morsink.

5 MR. NICE: I don't think there's anything I need raise with the

6 colonel, and I have no objection to the documents going in that have been

7 produced.

8 JUDGE MAY: Colonel Morsink, that concludes your evidence. Thank

9 you for coming back to give it.

10 [The witness withdrew]

11 JUDGE MAY: Now, the next witness will be Mr. Husic --

12 MR. NICE: Correct.

13 JUDGE MAY: -- who is coming back to deal with the tape, he having

14 been the witness who produced it. And there were some matters you wanted

15 to put to him.

16 MR. NICE: No. He's been brought back for cross-examination.

17 JUDGE MAY: Well, for cross-examination. But I mean, essentially,

18 it's your point that if this tape -- if it's being suggested that this

19 tape has been interfered with and manipulated, then it should be put

20 firmly to the witness who is responsible or may have been responsible for

21 it.

22 MR. NICE: Precisely, yes. The only thing that may need

23 explaining, not by me, perhaps, but to the witness, is, of course, that on

24 the previous occasion he was cross-examined by Mr. Stein, and so it will

25 be somebody else, in case he notices these things. Yes, that's the

Page 27112

1 position there.

2 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, you agree with that point, presumably.

3 MR. SAYERS: I do, but it's going to be Mr. Naumovski that does

4 the cross-examination, Your Honour.

5 [The witness entered court]

6 MR. NICE: Your Honour, again, I think the witness is bound by his

7 previous taking of the solemn declaration.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

9 Mr. Husic, there's no need to take that again. You've already

10 taken a declaration to tell the truth and you are, of course, still bound

11 by it. If you'd like to take a seat.

12 The position, Mr. Husic, is this: You've been asked to come back

13 because various other issues about the tape which you produced have been

14 aired during the course of evidence since you last gave evidence, and it

15 is thought right that you should have the opportunity to deal with any

16 suggestions which may be made about the authenticity of the tape. You're

17 going to be cross-examined by counsel, different counsel, but representing

18 the same accused.

19 Yes, Mr. Naumovski.

20 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

21 WITNESS: EDIN HUSIC [Recalled]

22 [Witness answered through interpreter]

23 Cross-examined by Mr. Naumovski:

24 Q. Good day, Mr. Husic.

25 A. Good day.

Page 27113

1 Q. My name is Mitko Naumovski. I am an attorney at law from Zagreb

2 and I am the defence counsel for Mr. Kordic, together with Mr. Sayers.

3 Since we understand each other as soon as we speak, please wait a

4 little for my question to be interpreted into the official languages of

5 the Tribunal so as not to make the work of the interpreters more

6 difficult.

7 Mr. Husic, you made a statement to investigators of the Tribunal

8 on the 4th of December, 1999. Do you remember that?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. After that, you testified before this Court in February of this

11 year.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. I assume that yesterday, or in recent days, you looked at your

14 testimony from the examination-in-chief.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Could you tell us whether you read your previous statement of the

17 4th of December, 1999?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Would you tell us, please, whether you also read the testimony of

20 the expert witnesses, Messrs. Kanik [phoen] and others who testified after

21 your testimony?

22 A. No.

23 Q. And have you discussed their expert opinion with anyone at all?

24 A. No.

25 Q. And just one more question for the sake of clarification. You

Page 27114

1 know nothing of what the experts found?

2 A. What I know is that, when I testified here for the first time, I

3 was told that two tapes which I handed over were completely identical.

4 That's all I know. I don't know anything else.

5 Q. Very well. Thank you. Then we will not go into this further.

6 Tell us, please: In the meantime, did you have a meeting with the

7 Prosecutor or investigators from the Office of the Prosecutor from the

8 time of your last testimony up to the present moment?

9 A. Well, I had contact with them yesterday because I was sitting down

10 and reading those materials, and I had contact with Mr. Patrick

11 Lopez-Terres, and I asked him why I had been called here again and he told

12 me that he assumed I was here so that it could be established again, so to

13 say, to establish the identity or to identify this material, if you call

14 that a meeting, but that was all.

15 Q. Well, my question would be: Apart from this information as to why

16 you were here, did you discuss with him or anyone else the content of your

17 testimony?

18 A. No, I did not.

19 Q. Tell us, please: Did you, in the meantime, have any contacts or

20 any conversation with Adnan Begovic or (redacted) ? I assume you know

21 who I'm referring to. These are the people who worked with you once upon

22 a time and you were their chief in the service where you worked in Zenica

23 in 1993.

24 A. Well, I met Amir [as interpreted] by chance on one occasion, but

25 we did not talk about any details in connection with this. I only told

Page 27115

1 him that I had been here and testified and that it was over, and that was

2 all. I did not go into any details or enter into a discussion. I didn't

3 feel it was necessary at all. I did not meet Mr. Adnan at all, and I

4 never tried to do anything about this or in connection with this.

5 Q. Just an additional question about (redacted). Did he tell

6 you whether he had made a statement to investigators of this Tribunal or

7 didn't you talk about it?

8 A. He told me that he had also been contacted, but he didn't give me

9 any details.

10 Q. Could you just tell us when this was, approximately, this

11 conversation of yours between the two testimonies?

12 A. Well, it was perhaps two months after my testimony, but it's hard

13 to be precise.

14 Q. Very well. So it may have been around April this year?

15 A. Well, I can't be sure.

16 Q. Very well. Thank you. Let us try now to go back to the period of

17 your service. Your service, as you said, lasted from January to March

18 1993, so I think you said it lasted for about three months.

19 A. Yes, if you mean only that part of my task, so to speak. You are

20 referring to the mission, what we are discussing right now. Yes. Yes.

21 Well, then we can say that, yes.

22 Q. Tell us, please -- we shall come back to this event in greater

23 detail later on, but can you just tell us in principle: The people whose

24 task was to make the recordings of these conversations, did they make

25 transcripts? The conversations that were recorded on tape, were they put

Page 27116

1 down on paper? Was a transcript produced in written form?

2 A. Partly, so what was important was sent in the form of a report to

3 the superior command. Not everything, of course; only what was most

4 important, what was important in the then situation.

5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Naumovski, I must remind you that this witness has

6 already been cross-examined and it would not be fair to subject him to

7 another cross-examination about all his evidence. The scope of this

8 cross-examination has to be severely limited, and it is to do with the

9 authenticity of the tape and the possibility that it's been tampered with

10 by adding language to it or moving language on the tape about, that sort

11 of suggestion and manipulation.

12 Now, I'm not going to stop you asking some general questions, but

13 that is the heart of it, and so we must restrict you to it.

14 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Yes, absolutely, Your Honour. I

15 fully accept what you say. I have to say, however, that in the meantime,

16 we have received some statements from people who worked with Mr. Husic and

17 who represented things slightly differently, and I felt it was my

18 professional duty to ask him about it, if you will allow me. And one of

19 those questions has to do with the transcripts because one of the persons

20 whose statement we received said that the transcripts were made on several

21 occasions. They put down transcripts in written form of the recordings,

22 and the witness never said that. That's why I had to ask him. But I will

23 not dwell on this long if you will only allow me to ask about it.

24 JUDGE MAY: One or two questions only.

25 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 27117

1 Q. Mr. Husic, you have just said that reports were drawn up. We all

2 know what the word "report" means. It's a kind of a cover note that you

3 send with the tape. But I was referring to a transcript, that is, to

4 taking down the speech, the language, and putting it down on paper. Were

5 such transcripts ever made?

6 A. I'll try to explain. General Hadzihasanovic, as my commander, was

7 directly informed by me so he could hear the conversations that had been

8 recorded. Of course not all of them, only the important ones. And later

9 on he had the tape we are talking about. As for the transcripts that were

10 part of the reports we submitted at that time to the General Staff, they

11 were part of the reports that I sent to the superior command in Sarajevo.

12 Transcripts that would be kept along with the recorded material

13 was not made. What was made was only for the purposes of the report.

14 That is my answer in detail.

15 Q. Very well, but we have to draw a distinction. One thing were the

16 written notes that you received. I understand that. I am asking you

17 about the records now because (redacted) said that, on several

18 occasions, written transcripts were made which were delivered to you

19 together with the tapes. So the conversation that was recorded was also

20 put down on paper. That's my question: Where are these transcripts?

21 A. Of course, but, later, it was typed up in a file which was then

22 transformed into a report and sent on to the superior command in Sarajevo.

23 Q. So then, these transcripts should be somewhere? Where? In what

24 department of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina of the time?

25 A. At that time, the reports were sent directly to the intelligence

Page 27118

1 administration of the General Staff of the army of the Republic of Bosnia

2 and Herzegovina.

3 Q. Thank you. Tell us, please, where did the notes end up that were

4 given to you by your people together with the tapes?

5 A. We destroyed them. It was usually written on sheets of paper, and

6 later on, as the service developed, part of this was probably preserved

7 because then the logs started to be kept. But as far as I can remember,

8 what they gave me on the sheets of paper and what was important for a

9 transcript for the purposes of the report only, that paper was later

10 destroyed.

11 Q. Thank you. And tell us, by the way, we agree that you do not know

12 who is the author of this transcript that I have here. You can look at

13 them. These are transcripts related to these tapes. You don't know who

14 did that?

15 A. Well, I suppose that some service, perhaps translators here in The

16 Hague, did it, because I, for instance, read those transcripts yesterday.

17 And this is the material which I had an opportunity to see when I first

18 testified.

19 Q. Thank you. But I asked you where was this material sent, because

20 we wrote to the federation army and, unfortunately, they did not supply us

21 with the material that you mentioned and some other witnesses before you,

22 but what can we do?

23 And just one technical question more and then we shall move on to

24 this specific issue. I don't think I shall have too many questions. The

25 equipment that you had at your disposal at the time, which means in

Page 27119

1 January, February 1993, it practically came down to a telephone and a

2 simple answering machine or something like that. At least, that is what

3 one of those men said.

4 A. It was not a telephone. It was a device which could also be

5 operated as an interphone. That is, in a way it was an answering machine

6 which could receive the signal, and as an interphone, as a speaker phone,

7 to transmit it; and from that device, then that signal could be sent on to

8 some other telephone. Then we use it, use it only because of this

9 interphone feature. It was very difficult, you know, to hear. That is,

10 we had to hear. We did not have any sophisticated state-of-the-art

11 equipment which would allow us to record directly.

12 So, from the telephone line, from the telephone switch, we

13 switched on this answering machine, and from that device, then it was --

14 the signal was sent on to a portable dictating machine or something like

15 that, and that is how we recorded those conversations on a microtape.

16 That is what I can say about it.

17 Q. Very well. Just one question more. This device or these devices,

18 what source of energy did they use; normal electric energy?

19 A. Yes. I don't think it was 220, the voltage, so you had to use

20 transformers, but of course, yes, they were electrical devices.

21 Q. And that other device, tell us, the one that you used to copy this

22 on other cassettes, did it also use the electrical energy as a source of

23 energy?

24 A. That was a small manual thing, and it used dry batteries. It was

25 a very primitive way to do it, but there was no other.

Page 27120

1 Q. Right. So let us, then, move on to the event we're particularly

2 interested in, that alleged conversation on the 24th of January, 1993.

3 We agree that one of your superiors gave you the cassette with the

4 recorded conversation and an accompanying note; is that correct?

5 A. Well, the cassette, yes. Was there an accompanying note? I'm not

6 quite sure. Perhaps it was written subsequently, but there was the tape.

7 Q. I meant the subordinate, the transcript says wrongly, but somebody

8 who worked for you, who did this for you, gave you this cassette?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And I didn't quite understand about the note. Did you get it

11 immediately or not?

12 A. I cannot really say. I just don't remember whether the transcript

13 was made straight away or not. I don't think so. If there was a

14 transcript, then it must have been done subsequently. I believe I was

15 given the first cassette only.

16 Q. Very well. But did you know if -- when that tape was made and who

17 were the participants in the conversation?

18 A. Yes. I was made to understand that the conversation was very

19 important, and that the conversation was -- that the participants were

20 Kordic and Blaskic. And naturally, when I saw when it was about, I

21 listened to it, and I notified my commander because, at that time, it was

22 very important.

23 Q. If I understood you well, you were explicitly told without any

24 doubt whatsoever, without any room for doubt, that the conversation

25 recorded was between Mr. Kordic and Mr. Blaskic, isn't it?

Page 27121

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. However, I have to tell you, when you gave your first statement to

3 the investigators on the 4th of December, 1999, that you said explicitly

4 that one of your men handed the cassette over to you. That was passage 8

5 of your previous statement, and you said verbatim, "The information about

6 the conversation recorded on a piece of paper included the date of the

7 recording, which was the 24th of January, 1993, and it was said that the

8 participants in the conversation were allegedly or reportedly Blaskic and

9 Kordic."

10 From what I've just read to you, it says that you said, and I can

11 show it to you because that was your statement which I was given by the

12 Prosecution, that the monitor who told you that as a matter of fact was

13 not sure because the word "allegedly" or "reportedly" was used.

14 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Naumovski, you've been reading something at great

15 length. In any event, this is nothing to do with the authenticity of the

16 tape. This is part of the original cross-examination. Now, would you

17 come to the authenticity of the tape.

18 As I said, it's not fair on the witness to be subjected to a

19 general cross-examination about his evidence. He's already been subjected

20 to that. What you may ask and what you should ask is any question about

21 the authenticity of the tape, that is, whether it's been manipulated or

22 not. That is the whole issue, not a free-ranging, wide-ranging

23 cross-examination.

24 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] No, of course, Your Honours, I

25 understand what you are saying. But I think that these two things are

Page 27122

1 inseparable because it begins with an alleged conversation and answer with

2 a certain effect, hence my doubts and doubts of our Defence that part of

3 that, of that conversation was fabricated, and I'm going to put it to the

4 witness.

5 Q. Do you remember that conversation, Mr. Husic, that we're talking

6 about?

7 A. Yes, I do.

8 Q. Do you remember the tone? Was it serious, was it half jester, was

9 it very serious? What was your impression about that? And yesterday you

10 read the transcripts, you saw the vocabulary used.

11 A. I understand what you're asking me about, but was the tone and the

12 conversation between two men that we are referring to, was it merry or

13 not, I think that what was going on shows that it was very serious

14 indeed. And all the other conversations, I suppose, confirm what was

15 going on on the ground.

16 Would you say that they said that it was "allegedly" then? Of

17 course, it is very difficult to be sure, but were you in a situation to

18 hear something that you've never heard before, you would have heard it.

19 If you were in a situation and as it was at the time, you would realise

20 who it was, what they were talking about, and what the intentions were

21 behind it.

22 So that conversation could sound as a joking conversation between

23 the two of them, but I did not think so, not in the least. On the other

24 hand, I was duty-bound to forward this information to my superior, to the

25 commander, and give my -- voice my opinion that I do think that those were

Page 27123

1 their intentions, and very serious ones.

2 Of course, when you are in a situation to assess some facts, it is

3 very difficult to be sure. One can hardly be ever sure about something

4 100 per cent.

5 Q. Very well. Mr. Husic, you are a professional. You did that job.

6 You had some experience; you did it professionally. Then at that time you

7 were clear, as a professional, that it is only on the basis of the

8 original recording that one can establish the authenticity of a

9 conversation, isn't that so?

10 A. But that is the original recording. Whether it was copied once or

11 twice is irrelevant because it did not undergo any changes. Naturally, in

12 assessing it, that is not the only thing that is considered as an element

13 as it is all the available information that must be borne in mind. I

14 cannot say that I'm an expert on that particular aspect, but I was an

15 intelligence officer, I was trained for this, and that is what I can

16 confirm.

17 Q. Well, that is that part of your experience that I have in mind.

18 You were asked by His Honour last time, 13.732, how is it that you kept

19 this particular cassette which was a copy of the original microtape which

20 contained the original recording. That is the reason for my additional

21 question.

22 It seemed to you that the substance of the conversation was so

23 significant that you kept it as a souvenir and to train future personnel,

24 yet not -- only the original can contain the authenticity, then how could

25 you allow that the two -- how could you allow the destruction of the

Page 27124

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 27125

1 microtape? You must have been aware that that was the original.

2 A. Let me tell you, we used microtapes only to record conversations.

3 They were expendable stationery. We did not have enough of them, so we

4 could not keep those conversations in their original form. And we did not

5 even plan to keep all the conversations. This conversation was kept

6 because it was very interesting and very important. Others were preserved

7 and recorded on that particular tape because General Hadzihasanovic

8 requested us to do that. That is when we made those two tapes. One of

9 them is here.

10 Now, the question, to my mind, is -- whether the original is on

11 the microtape or this here is not a question because, for me, the material

12 which is on this tape, the recorded conversation, is absolutely

13 identical. The only question that may arise is the quality, because

14 whenever one copies it, one loses some of the quality but not the

15 substance of it. The fact that I kept only this conversation, and only

16 this, is because it was something that was very interesting to me because

17 that is something which is very -- which one very rarely has the

18 opportunity to have. There are quite a number of other documents that can

19 be kept, but I simply decided to keep this, for personal reasons only.

20 And at that time, none of us could even guess or imagine. Perhaps we

21 would have kept much more.

22 Q. Excuse me for interrupting you, but I have to tell you what the

23 Court expects of you, and I will tell you that we put it to you that there

24 was never a conversation of precisely this content that is indicated in

25 the transcript that you had the opportunity to read once again tomorrow

Page 27126

1 [as interpreted], never in that form. So my question is: Can you, before

2 this august court, confirm that this alleged conversation of 1993 is

3 absolutely identical with what you read in the transcript yesterday?

4 A. If that is what you're asking me, then I should hear the tape once

5 again and read the transcript which you have before you. All I can do is

6 confirm that that tape was never subjected to any tampering, any addition,

7 any change, either by me or by anybody else. As long as I had it in my

8 possession -- and we talked about this last time -- but I, of my own will,

9 offered the second tape that I had also recorded on the eve of the day

10 when I handed over that cassette to Mr. Mustafa Music, because I still

11 wanted to keep it, and that is what I can confirm. You cannot ask me

12 about every single word in that transcript. And the cassette, if you have

13 to listen to it and read it, then I can say, "Yes, this is it," and "This

14 is not it." But I am positive about what I'm saying, and that is what I

15 am saying.

16 Q. But we have to repeat it for the Court, so let us remind you. You

17 answered my learned colleague's question, Bob Stein's, that you did not

18 have the tape in your possession between the 4th of December, 1999 until a

19 later date, that is, until about a week later, when you heard it again.

20 A. Yes, as far as I can remember. So bearing in mind what I read

21 yesterday, between the 20th of November until the 4th of December, it was

22 that period of time when I did not have the tape in my possession, the one

23 that I turned over for the first time. The copy that I made on the 19th,

24 that is, in the evening, copying that same tape, I did have it in my

25 possession and I gave it the last time -- I handed it over the last time

Page 27127

1 so that possibly you could see if any changes had been made on the tape

2 that I had turned over on the 20th.

3 Q. Right. I don't really want to talk about this, because the expert

4 witnesses talked about them and there were differences between those

5 cassettes, but I don't really want to tire you with it anymore, and it

6 will be the Court which will decide about this, because the Judges have

7 heard the testimony.

8 I'm asking you: As a professional, a professional who was trained

9 for that particular job, will you agree with me that there are relatively

10 easily accessible or relatively sophisticated computer programmes allowing

11 to reproduce audio recordings, making all sorts of -- allowing all sorts

12 of interventions, so on and so forth, and it is used in music, in making

13 music recordings, so on and so forth; there can be no dispute about this?

14 A. Yes, but then I could sing too.

15 Q. Yes?

16 A. Almost.

17 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] And me too. Right.

18 I will not ask some of the questions, in compliance with your

19 instruction, but I shall merely like to show Z2801.3. I have some copies

20 for the witness on the ELMO and I should like to show this exhibit to the

21 witness, Z2801.3.

22 Q. Mr. Husic, you have before you this. Do you remember it? It was

23 on the cover, or what shall I call it? Well, you know, that bit of paper

24 which comes with tapes where you can write down whatever facts. Is this

25 your handwriting?

Page 27128

1 A. It is.

2 Q. A while ago, we said what is alleged and what is not alleged. You

3 understand it is difficult to be absolutely sure. But there is not a

4 single question mark, except on page B -- on side B, under 2. There we

5 have a question mark. All the rest are simply statements of

6 conversations. So that caution that "alleged." This is something that we

7 don't see from here, because there are no question marks anywhere, isn't

8 it?

9 A. When I did this, of course, I listened to the recording and I

10 noted down the conversations and what was there. This here, where there

11 is a question mark, I could not establish who the participants were. So

12 this is my handwriting, this is what I did at the time, and I was positive

13 about what I was doing, because I couldn't really give my commander a tape

14 just like that, a tape without any explanation.

15 Q. But under B3, if I understand it properly, this is Nakic and T.

16 Blaskic; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And in the transcript, we can see that it is a certain Franjo.

19 That is what you decided, I suppose, with Colonel Blaskic; is that so?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. However, what stuck in my memory is that this index is not all

22 that precise. It does not quite tally with what is on the tapes. It's

23 not that we have 11 recordings on the A side and the rest on the B side,

24 if I remember well. Is this only a list of conversations, regardless of

25 the side, or did you try to be accurate, marking precisely which is which?

Page 27129

1 A. Well, I noted down those conversations as they followed one

2 another, that sequence. If you're asking me, I was listening to them and

3 I was writing down what I heard. Whether somebody else listened to that

4 and acquired a different impression, I can't say. But what you see here

5 is what I wrote and it dates back to that time.

6 Q. Very well. But let us go back to this. I think in the transcript

7 my colleague draws my attention. We said that under B3 you said it was

8 Franjo Nakic and Tihomir Blaskic's conversation, isn't it?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Because the transcript wasn't clear. That is why I wanted to ask

11 about that.

12 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, as I have said, I

13 would have some more questions, but in view of the limited range of the

14 cross-examination, I put my views to the witness and he responded, and I

15 do not wish to keep either the Court or the witness at it any longer, and

16 therefore I conclude with this. Thank you very much.

17 Thank you, Witness. Thank you, Your Honours.

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 Re-examined by Mr. Nice:

20 Q. The tape recordings that you made on the ordinary-size tape were

21 made with your battery-operated machine; is that right?

22 A. If you mean this tape, this device was an electrically-fed

23 device. It was the conventional type. But the reproduction was from a

24 battery-operated device, dictating machine.

25 Q. So to make sure I've got this, the microcassettes were produced on

Page 27130

1 a battery-operated machine; is that right?

2 A. No. This device, which is a portable device, that was -- that

3 used electricity. But when I listen to the cassettes, I cannot listen to

4 them using that device, because it is being used; it is working. So I had

5 to use another one. So I reproduced it to a dictating machine, from which

6 I could copy then -- copied then on a big tape.

7 Q. And so the intermediate machine was battery driven, was it?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. The second thing is, just to cover a matter of detail: The tape

10 that you first produced via the officials in your department to

11 Mr. Lopez-Terres, which is the one for which -- this is the JPS

12 jacket -- had that been in your possession throughout from the time when

13 you first recorded it until the time when you handed it to your superiors?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Then the second tape that you produced at Court from your

16 briefcase or somewhere, the one you kept for yourself, had that been in

17 your possession from the moment when you first recorded it?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Can you, incidentally, now remember the make of that tape that you

20 produced at Court on the last occasion? If you can, tell us; if you

21 can't, don't guess.

22 A. I think it was Maxell.

23 Q. You first heard the conversations when you heard them on

24 microcassettes; is that correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 27131

1 Q. We now know you were personally responsible for the taping

2 thereafter, up and until the final production of these two tapes. What's

3 being raised with you, so that you can be quite clear about the

4 suggestion, is that you, alone or with others, in some way have corrupted

5 those tapes to make them say things that the speakers never said. Is

6 there any truth in that suggestion which, however decorously, is

7 nevertheless being raised?

8 A. No. All this is genuine, as it was recorded. The material which

9 I got and which I prepared, I never made any changes at all.

10 Q. Finally, are you still in the services yourself?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. With the present rank of?

13 A. I'm a colonel.

14 Q. And if you're able to tell us, your present posting is where? If

15 you don't want to tell us, it doesn't matter, but if you can just tell us

16 what your current posting is.

17 A. I'm with the defence naval attache of Bosnia-Herzegovina in the

18 United States of America; military naval attache at the embassy of

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina in the United States of America.

20 MR. NICE: That's all I need ask of this witness. Thank you.

21 [Trial Chamber confers]

22 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Husic, thank you for coming back to answer those

23 questions. You are now free to go.

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

25 [The witness withdrew]

Page 27132

1 JUDGE MAY: It being 4.00, the Court is not minded to sit much

2 later. There are two matters, though, I want to deal with in closed

3 session. Before we do, we ought to have in mind what we're going to deal

4 with tomorrow. First of all, perhaps Witness AO, what is the position

5 about him? He's not -- he failed to catch the plane.

6 MR. NICE: He hasn't responded. The position is he hasn't

7 responded or has declined to come. It may be further efforts will be made

8 and those executing the process will be able to inform me. I can simply

9 keep you informed and, in due course, if he simply doesn't turn up, I

10 shall be inviting the Court to consider taking action in respect of him,

11 but for the time being, the position is as I've stated it. It's always

12 rather difficult to get comprehensive accounts from this distance of what

13 happens on the ground, but as I understand it, opportunities were

14 available and weren't taken.

15 JUDGE MAY: We'll have to -- yes, Mr. Naumovski.

16 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I would not like to

17 be impolite, but your decision was made long ago, and we have a schedule

18 day by day. And if the witness has not appeared so far, I don't see when

19 the witness can possibly come, because every week we have a full schedule;

20 every day has been planned ahead. And I would not like to have to deal

21 with this on the last day of our case. I think enough has been done to

22 make the witness come. He came here the first time. Thank you.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE MAY: The trial Chamber is concerned, as Mr. Naumovski says,

25 about the timetable and the effects of witnesses not appearing upon it.

Page 27133

1 You'll give us a report tomorrow, Mr. Nice, and then we'll have to

2 consider the position.

3 MR. NICE: Yes, of course.

4 JUDGE MAY: Tomorrow we will consider the position with regard to

5 some of the applications which have been made as far as we can, certainly

6 about witnesses, clearly.

7 MR. NICE: There's one particular -- in fact, if it's not

8 impertinent -- there's one particular witness who it seems conveniently

9 falls to be dealt with in argument tomorrow. His travel arrangements are,

10 I believe, currently Tuesday for Wednesday, so it would obviously be

11 helpful to know in advance what the position is there.

12 JUDGE MAY: You were going to tell us the names of the witnesses

13 on whom you were going to rely.

14 MR. NICE: I can tell you the ones I know about -- I've got

15 knowledge about at the moment.

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

17 MR. NICE: It may be better if we can do that in closed session

18 because I'm not sure whether either of the last two names are going to

19 require any form of protection.

20 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll go into closed session.

21 [Closed session]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 [redacted]

25 [redacted]

Page 27134

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13 Pages 27134 to 27138 redacted in closed session.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 27139

1 [redacted]

2 [redacted]

3 [redacted]

4 [redacted]

5 [redacted]

6 [redacted]

7 [redacted]

8 [redacted]

9 [redacted]

10 [redacted]

11 [redacted]

12 [redacted]

13 [redacted]

14 [redacted]

15 [redacted]

16 [redacted]

17 [redacted]

18 [redacted]

19 [redacted]

20 [redacted]

21 [redacted]

22 [redacted]

23 [redacted]

24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4:17 p.m., to

25 be reconvened on Friday, the 17th day of November,

Page 27140

1 2000, at 9:30 a.m.

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25