1 Monday, 4th December 2000.
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.
5 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.
6 MR. NICE: Our evidence can, I think, probably be concluded today,
7 two witnesses this morning one this afternoon. The witnesses for this
8 morning both seek limited protective measures. May we go into private
9 session to deal with those applications.
10 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
11 MR. NICE: I'll ask Mr. Lopez-Terres to deal with the first one as
12 it concerns the witness who he is calling.
13 [Private session]
13 Page 27783 redacted – private session.
20 [The witness entered court]
21 [Open session]
22 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness stand to take the declaration.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
24 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
25 JUDGE MAY: If you'd like to take a seat.
1 WITNESS: WITNESS AW
2 [Witness answered through interpreter]
3 Examined by Mr. Lopez-Terres:
4 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, the Chamber has consented to our request
5 and your pseudonym will be AW. I simply wish to show you a piece of paper
6 with your name on it. Will you please confirm that that is, indeed, your
8 A. [In English] Yes.
9 Q. Witness AW, you lived and still live in the municipality of
10 Busovaca, don't you?
11 A. [Interpretation] I do.
12 Q. You joined the Territorial Defence in April 1992. In Busovaca,
13 the majority of members of the Territorial Defence were Muslims by origin,
14 weren't they?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Following that, when the brigade was established in December 1992,
17 you joined the 333rd Mountain Brigade in Busovaca, didn't you?
18 A. I did, yes.
19 Q. In January 1993, you became a member of the Sabotage
20 Reconnaissance Group of that brigade and you were its member for two
21 months, weren't you?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And when those two months expired in March 1993, you left that
24 special unit and became a member of that brigade's military police, didn't
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. That unit that you belonged to, the Sabotage Reconnaissance Group,
3 was stationed in Kacuni, wasn't it?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. In January 1993, Witness AW, did the HVO set up roadblocks, police
6 checkpoints, around the town of Busovaca and in the territory of the
7 municipality of Busovaca?
8 A. Yes, much before that.
9 Q. There were several of them, were there?
10 A. I think that not less than five in the municipality.
11 Q. Was it difficult to get into Busovaca then?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And in the area of Kacuni, where you were at the time, it was
14 Bosnian army units which controlled the region, wasn't it?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. There were simply two villages, I think, with a Croat majority,
17 Gusti Grab and Nezirovici, if I'm correct.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And around the 19th of January, 1993, that army set up a roadblock
20 in Kacuni and that checkpoint was roughly at the level of the barracks in
21 which the BH army units were quartered; is that correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And that checkpoint was at an intersection on the road linking
24 Busovaca with Kiseljak in the south; is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Now I should like to show you briefly a map of the region so that
2 you could show us on the map where that roadblock was. It is Z1708.1.
3 Could you point at the place where that roadblock was.
4 A. [Indicates]
5 Q. Busovaca was a few kilometres to the north and Kiseljak lies to
6 the south of it, doesn't it?
7 A. Well, yes. Busovaca is about 6 kilometres away.
8 Q. And at that intersection, there was also a forest road which led
9 to Fojnica. Could you indicate that road on the map.
10 A. [Indicates]
11 Q. Thank you. This police checkpoint was usually manned by the
12 military police of the BH army, but from time to time, your unit lent them
13 a hand, lent a hand to this military police unit, didn't it?
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise, but I
16 believe that the time has come to ask my learned friend not to lead the
17 witness any more.
18 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]
19 Q. This unit, that Sabotage Reconnaissance Group, did it, from time
20 to time, check the vehicles and the checkpoint when/if the military police
21 was absent?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And was this checkpoint there every day regularly, week after
25 A. I don't understand the question.
1 Q. Was that checkpoint in place every day, manned by either you or by
2 the military police, or was it there only on some days of the week?
3 A. Yes. You mean every day?
4 Q. Was it set up at a particular hour, fixed time of the day, or did
5 it vary from day to day?
6 A. It varied.
7 Q. And which vehicles were you expected to check?
8 A. On the Busovaca-Kiseljak road, the vehicles were inspected as the
9 need arose.
10 Q. But according to the instructions that you had, this control, did
11 it cover all the vehicles that would come up or only some of the vehicles,
12 some vehicles which had been specified?
13 A. Vehicles moving towards the barracks, all the vehicles moving
14 towards the barracks were checked.
15 Q. There were vehicles which belonged to the United Nations which
16 also used that road, weren't there?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And were your instructions to stop and control them too?
19 A. Only if they were moving towards the barracks.
20 Q. On the 20th of January, 1993, you and some other members of your
21 unit were at the checkpoint. Could you tell us what you remember about
22 what happened that day?
23 A. Well, several members of our military formation were sent to that
24 traffic checkpoint. No sooner did I arrive than - perhaps some ten
25 minutes later - than a column of four civilian vehicles was stopped.
1 There were uniformed persons in those vehicles with HVO patches. I was on
2 the opposite side of the road, and those vehicles were coming from the
3 direction of Busovaca, heading towards Kiseljak.
4 A few minutes after they had been stopped, the leader of our
5 formation, who, in a manner of speaking, conducted a dialogue with some of
6 those members - whether in the first or the second vehicle, I don't know -
7 and voices were raised. And we were ordered then to point our weapons at
8 those vehicles.
9 What really happened, what kind of a dialogue, I did not hear
10 then, I did not hear it at the time, but I learned about it from my
11 colleagues. I learned about the real reason for it sometime later.
12 Q. Could you tell us how far were you from those four vehicles,
14 A. Some 20, 25 metres.
15 Q. And you personally did not address a single word to either the
16 driver or persons in those vehicles, did you?
17 A. I did not, no.
18 Q. The place where you were, did you see anything worth noting in
19 those vehicles, or did you recognise one of the persons in those vehicles?
20 A. I did, yes. I recognised the last vehicle in that column. It was
21 an Opel Ascona, and what was worth noting about that vehicle was that
22 behind the rear glass there was an army rifle, usually called Pumparica.
23 That's what we call it. I don't know why I mentioned it but it simply
24 stuck in my memory.
25 Q. This vehicle, this Opel Ascona that you mentioned, you knew it,
1 you had seen it before. Do you know who it belonged to?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. To whom did it belong?
4 A. Am I supposed to give the name of the owner? Because I know that
6 Q. Yes, please.
7 A. It belonged to Dragan Vukadinovic.
8 Q. Did you know what kind of work this Dragan Vukadinovic did in
10 A. Well, he had an undefined job, so to speak. According to what you
11 could see on television and what you could hear from ordinary folk, he was
12 some kind of a bodyguard, a bodyguard for Dario Kordic. These TV
13 programmes, in the period of 1992, were shown often on the then Television
15 Q. You recognised his car. Was Dragan Vukadinovic in the car on the
16 20th of January?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Where in the car was he; do you remember?
19 A. The driver, you mean?
20 Q. This scene that you are talking to us about, in your opinion,
21 lasted about how long?
22 A. Ten, 15 minutes, not more than that.
23 Q. And were the four automobiles able to go past the checkpoint? And
24 in what direction did they leave?
25 A. No. They were returning in the direction of Busovaca.
1 Q. Were any weapons seized during the time that you were stopped at
2 the checkpoint?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you see the weapons or did you see some of the weapons? Could
5 you describe what kind of weapons they were?
6 A. A pistol was taken away. I did not see the very act of it being
7 taken away. However, later, I held that pistol in my hand and I remember
8 what it looked like very well.
9 Q. Could you give us a quick description of the pistol?
10 A. It was a nickel-plated gun, 9-millimetre, a parabellum. I think
11 it was a red -- it was made by the Crvena Zastava factory, and perhaps it
12 was a CZ-99. Perhaps.
13 Q. Did you yourself see the weapon?
14 A. I held it in my hand, yes.
15 Q. Did you know who had seized it?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Could you give us the name, please?
18 A. Miralem Delija.
19 Q. That was your unit commander; correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. I would like to show you a document, Witness AW.
22 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] Let me tell the Chamber that
23 this is an excerpt from the war log that was mentioned and which was
24 admitted by this Chamber. The reference number is Z610.1. In this case,
25 we gave it an exhibit number which was specific, Z610.3.
1 Q. I would like you to have a quick look at the document which is
2 being shown to you. Would you please put the English version on the
4 At the bottom of the page that I'm showing you, there are
5 indications about a weapon. I wanted to know whether this indication
6 tells you something that might correspond to the weapon that you are
7 talking about.
8 You spoke to us about a 9-millimetre calibre and a weapon that
9 was nickel-plated.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And the brand of the weapon you are speaking about was CZ; is that
13 A. That is an abbreviation for Crvena Zastava, a weapons factory on
14 the territory of the former Yugoslavia.
15 Q. Thank you very much. Witness AW, you told us that you recognised
16 one of the people there in the fourth vehicle. Were you able to recognise
17 any other people in the vehicles that were stopped that day?
18 A. Not clearly.
19 Q. Aside from Dragan Vukadinovic, did you recognise any other
20 passenger, any other drivers in the vehicles?
21 A. As for some persons, I found out only later that they were in the
22 car. This was by way of information from my colleagues; I personally did
23 not see them because I concentrated on the people from the last car.
24 Q. The name or names that were given to you by your colleagues later,
25 could you tell what names those were?
1 A. Hamdija Kajtaz told me that a Cosic was in the vehicle. Also,
2 from another colleague, I found out that there was a Kostroman in this
3 vehicle. That information did not seem that important to me, but I know
4 that very well. I know that we were saying who we had stopped. That was
5 quite a feat.
6 Q. This name of Kostroman, did it have any meaning for you? Did you
7 know that person? Had you already seen that person beforehand?
8 A. No. I knew he was some kind of a Croat official, but at that
9 time, no, it didn't mean a thing to me.
10 Q. Do you remember how many people were in each of the cars, about?
11 A. Three to four.
12 Q. In the evening of the 20th of January, did you know what happened
13 in Busovaca?
14 A. Yes, but the day later.
15 Q. Could you tell us about it quickly? Tell us about what you
16 learned that had happened.
17 A. That night in Busovaca, a few buildings were blown up, that is to
18 say, cafes, shops that were held, owned, by Muslims. Also, a murder had
19 been committed, a brutal murder. The brother of Miralem Delija had been
20 killed; his name is Mirsad.
21 Q. Do you know what the circumstances of the murder were?
22 A. I don't know where this information came from. But Miralem
23 Delija, our then commander, explained to us that the house was surrounded
24 by four or five men, that they called out his name. He came to the door
25 in order to respond and that's when he was killed.
1 Q. In the information that you received at the time, were you also
2 provided information about the identity of the people involved in the
4 A. Miralem Delija had a lot of information available. I don't know
5 how. He was 100 per cent sure that one of the murderers, to put it
6 bluntly, was a Spomenko. His nickname was Charlie.
7 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
8 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I don't know how this
9 is going to help us. This is, indeed, hearsay.
10 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we know that. We can judge it. Yes, let's go
11 on. Can we move on to the next point, please.
12 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Witness, did you hear --
14 JUDGE MAY: No, we don't want to know that. If there's any
15 evidence that he had been indicted, it would have been in front of us.
16 Now let's go on to the 24th of January, please.
17 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Four days after the incident you've just spoken to us about, you
19 were again at the Kacuni police checkpoint. Could you tell us what
20 happened on that day, that is, the 24th of January, 1993?
21 A. Well, this is the way it was: Our military formation was staying
22 about 200 metres away from the checkpoint at a cafe. We, and when I say
23 "we," I mean the members of our formation, we set off for the barracks to
24 have lunch. We then received information that a few APCs, UN vehicles,
25 were trying to force their way through the checkpoint that led towards the
1 barracks in Kacuni.
2 Of course we reacted immediately. We came to this checkpoint, we
3 surrounded these vehicles, and we waited for some of the persons in charge
4 to take care of that situation. In the meantime, a jeep passed along the
5 Busovaca-Kiseljak communication road. There were two or three HVO members
6 in that jeep. Among them was the Charlie I mentioned in my previous
7 story. Miralem Delija told us very briefly, "I want him alive."
8 We positioned ourselves on the road about 50 metres away from the
9 checkpoint. There were two jeeps that were coming from the direction of
10 Kiseljak at that point. In one of them was a member of the HVO; later on,
11 I heard that this was some Petrovic. I don't know him. We stopped that
12 vehicle, disarmed him. Only a pistol was taken away from him.
13 In the other vehicle, that was a Toyota, there were two persons.
14 I knew one of the two persons. His name is Srecko Kristo. I did not know
15 the other person though.
16 In the other vehicle, as far as both persons are concerned, they
17 were wearing civilian clothes. There weren't any weapons there. Since
18 they were of no interest to us, we decided to let them go.
19 At that moment, we saw an armoured vehicle. It's a very
20 well-known vehicle. It's an improvised armoured van, camouflaged. On it
21 were, perhaps, about six HVO members. They were the crew manning that
22 vehicle in the open part. I don't know about who was inside except for
23 the driver. What is characteristic for this vehicle and what made it so
24 dangerous was that it had an anti-aircraft gun.
25 This armoured van passed by us and we were busy searching these
1 other vehicles, and it opened fire on us as it was passing by. First, two
2 hand grenades were thrown, and they started shooting from personal
3 weapons. Afterwards, we responded.
4 Some kind of conflict broke out. The vehicles that were on the
5 road started moving. There was some kind of crossfire. This Petrovic was
6 killed in the first vehicle, and in the other vehicle, the driver, the
7 driver of this Toyota, the man whom I did not know.
8 Q. How were those two people killed?
9 A. By firearms.
10 Q. At any point were knives used against those people?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Were their bodies subsequently mutilated?
13 A. As far as I know, no.
14 Q. This Mr. Kristo that you spoke about, he was the owner of the Boss
15 cafe in Busovaca, wasn't he?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. After the second incident with the firing and with the two deaths,
18 what happened the next day in the Busovaca region?
19 A. On the same day when this incident occurred, the one I spoke
20 about, perhaps about an hour later, a Muslim house was torched. It burnt
21 down completely. We can say that there was not an official front line
22 there; there wasn't an official conflict between the Croats and the
23 Muslims or, rather, the army and the HVO.
24 Q. Was the conflict triggered the next day?
25 A. Yes. Yes. A wider conflict broke out on the territory of the
1 entire municipality.
2 Q. Were Muslims arrested as of the next day in the city of Busovaca?
3 A. Yes. Yes. I remember that. After the ceasefire, when all of
4 them were released from this concentration camp in Kaonik where most of
5 the population -- most of the male population was concentrated there, I
6 happened to be present when an English journalist was there and when this
7 man I knew from sight --
8 Q. Thank you. As of the 25th of January, were you, yourself,
9 involved in military operations further to the beginning of that conflict?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And how long did the fighting last after the 25th of January?
12 A. Perhaps eight days; perhaps ten days.
13 Q. Very well.
14 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] Mr. President, I have no
15 further questions to ask the witness.
16 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
17 Cross-examined by Mr. Naumovski:
18 Q. Witness AW, may I introduce myself. I am Mitko Naumovski,
19 attorney at law from Zagreb, and together with my colleague, Mr. Stephen
20 Sayers, I defend Mr. Dario Kordic as his Defence counsel. I am going to
21 put a few questions to you; however, please pause before answering my
22 questions because my questions have to be interpreted into the official
23 languages of the Court, and I shall try to wait for your answers to be
24 interpreted into the official languages as well.
25 Witness AW, you made a statement in August 2000 to the
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English
14 and French transcripts.
1 investigators of the Court; is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, perhaps, would you
4 allow me two minutes in private session. I have to mention the name of a
5 person who testified as a protected witness.
6 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
7 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 [Private session]
20 [Open session]
21 THE REGISTRAR: The document will be marked D353/1.
22 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]
23 Q. We can move on. Witness AW, when you talked with Witness AE in
24 May this year, it was after he had testified before this Court, wasn't
25 it? Did he then speak about that?
1 A. Very little, and I didn't even believe him.
2 Q. What is it that you did not believe?
3 A. I thought it was all the fruit of his imagination, a figment of
4 his imagination.
5 Q. Right. But let us now go back to January of 1993, a few general
6 questions. If I understood you well, you said that in January 1993, the
7 HVO had control over the town of Busovaca, didn't it?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Will you agree with me that at that same time, that is, in January
10 1993, the Territorial Defence or, better said, the BH army, had its
11 control over part of the municipality of Busovaca. By this, I mean the
12 locality of Kacuni and about a dozen other villages around it. Didn't it?
13 A. Well, yes, but that was towards the end of the month.
14 Q. Can we agree, then, that within the administrative boundaries of
15 the Busovaca municipality, there were, in point of fact, the HVO in one
16 part and the TO, that is, the BH army, in another part?
17 A. As of the 6th of April, 1992, the HVO had at least three
18 checkpoints in the municipality.
19 Q. Witness AW, my question was a general one. Do you agree that even
20 after May 1992, that is, after the events in May 1992, the Territorial
21 Defence still could work without any obstruction and had its seat in
22 Kacuni? There, that's the question.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And we can also agree that Territorial Defence members who lived
25 in the town of Busovaca commuted to Busovaca for work and that there was
1 no obstruction, and that was throughout 1992.
2 A. Possibly, because I was not in the municipality of Busovaca for
3 the major part of that year.
4 Q. Oh, so you don't know the details, do you?
5 A. I don't know.
6 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I may just remind the Court,
7 Witness AE, on page 3386, spoke about this so I won't be asking this
8 question or any questions about that since he doesn't know.
9 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Naumovski, just help us with this: The document
10 that you produced is an indictment against him and some others, AE and
11 some others, for burglarising premises in the summer of 2000. Now, what
12 possible assistance is that for us in trying this case? If it's true that
13 he is a burglar and a housebreaker, breaks into property, how does that
14 assist us in trying this case?
15 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I think it can be of
16 a great deal of assistance. When one looks at the indictment and his
17 testimony and the testimony of the witness here, on the basis of all this,
18 the Court will be able to decide on the credibility -- whether to lend any
19 credibility to that witness who has committed, according to this
20 indictment, 11 burglaries; that is, when you assess the weight of that
21 testimony, you should also know about this indictment so as to acquire a
22 complete picture about him as a person, as a witness, his credibility, and
23 what he told you about the events at that time. That was the idea.
24 JUDGE MAY: He has not yet been convicted. These are merely
1 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Yes. The indictment says only
2 that he owned up to these deeds, and I realise that, of course, the case
3 is still ongoing, it is an ongoing process, and we could not produce any
4 other documents.
5 JUDGE MAY: No doubt, you will point out that his fingerprint was found at
6 least in one such case. But these are serious international crimes, and
7 I wonder sometimes whether it's going to assist us to know, even if it's
8 true, that there's an allegation of burglary against somebody.
9 But let's not waste any more time on it.
10 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 Q. Witness AW, a few questions about the BH army forces in Kacuni in
12 January 1993. A moment ago, you mentioned that 333rd Mountain Brigade
13 and, we can agree, that the BH army brigade had its headquarters in
15 A. No.
16 Q. Right. Where were its headquarters?
17 A. In Zenica.
18 Q. Right. And who had their headquarters in Kacuni?
19 A. The 333rd Mountain Brigade is in Kacuni.
20 Q. I'm sorry. Evidently, it was my slip of the tongue. That is the
21 brigade I meant. So we mean the brigade who, at that time, was commanded
22 by Mr. Dzevad Nakic, wasn't it?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Will you agree with me that around the 20th of January, 1993, to
25 Kacuni and the surrounding villages, about 300 soldiers of the army of
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the so-called Krajina men, arrived in the area of
2 Kacuni and other villages?
3 A. I agree, but I don't know how many of them.
4 Q. You said in your statement, paragraph 6, you said about 300
5 soldiers came from Krajina to Kacuni and its vicinity. That is what you
6 told the investigators; do you accept that?
7 A. Well, when it says "about," that is not the exact figure.
8 Q. Very well. And do you agree with me that those soldiers stayed
9 there for about ten days and then went on?
10 A. Yes, I agree.
11 Q. Do you also agree with me that in that area, in Kacuni, at that
12 time in January 1993, there was also a part of the 2nd Battalion of the
13 7th Muslim Brigade?
14 A. No.
15 Q. That is, are you denying that the 7th Muslim Brigade was in the
16 territory of Kacuni in January of 1993?
17 A. Whether it was in the municipality somewhere, I don't know. But
18 in the Kacuni area, no, they were not there.
19 Q. I have to tell you that Witness AE, on page 14046, lines 23 to 26,
20 said that a part of that unit was in Kacuni.
21 A. In the Kacuni area, there was a local formation which was a Muslim
22 one, but they were all Kacuni villagers. And there could have been some
23 20, 30 of them.
24 Q. Thank you. We can move on. You said that this checkpoint was set
25 up one of those days, that is, around the 20th of January, that is, a few
1 days before that, I guess, and that it was not always operational but only
2 from time to time, wasn't it?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Then you showed us on the map where it was. Will you agree with
5 me that that is the place near the Kacuni mosque, where this side road
6 going to Silo joins the main Busovaca-Kiseljak road?
7 A. Sorry, could you repeat your question, please? Is that place
9 Q. The place, the site of the checkpoint.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Well, in metres, it is a few hundred metres away from the bridge
12 in Kacuni, isn't it?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Tell us, please, that day, the 20th of January, 1993, which unit
15 manned the checkpoint?
16 A. I think it was the military police.
17 Q. Yes, that's what you told us today. But Witness AE alleges that
18 it was you, that is, members of the Reconnaissance Sabotage Platoon.
19 A. Which date do you mean?
20 Q. The 20th of January, 1993.
21 A. We never manned the checkpoint around the clock. We would
22 sometimes join them. We had a freer hand.
23 Q. Very well. Let me be more specific. Who stopped -- the members
24 of which units stopped those vehicles that you told us about?
25 A. It could be two, a joint operation, the police and the unit.
1 Q. Very well. You said that the IDV, the Reconnaissance Sabotage
2 Unit, was a support unit. But when you say the IDV, it means you and your
3 colleagues, doesn't it?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Since you told us a while ago that there could have been some
6 members of your unit at the checkpoint when those vehicles were
7 intercepted, could you give us the names of the persons who were there?
8 Who, from your unit, was there when those vehicles were stopped?
9 A. Miralem Delija, Nedzad Karaula, Zenur Komarac, Hamdija Kajtaz.
10 And I could go on but I think this is enough.
11 Q. Tell us, please, who instructed you to head for those vehicles
12 from the place where you were standing?
13 A. I did not come close to the vehicles. I moved away from the
15 Q. Yes. Yes, I understand. I know what you are telling me. But
16 you said when those vehicles stopped, when they were stopped, you were
17 sent to come closer and you were standing some 20, 25 metres away.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So my question was: Who was it who told you to go from the start
20 position to that position, which is 20, 25 metres away from the vehicle?
21 A. A colleague of mine who was a villager of the village of Kacuni,
22 because I wasn't really that familiar with Kacuni before.
23 Q. Very well. Tell us, please, you were armed with automatic rifles
24 and you also had some hand-held rocket launchers, didn't you?
25 A. The unit that I was with, and that was made of 20, 25 men, not
1 more than 30 depending on the need, we were offered a certain choice of
2 weapons, rather, a broad choice of weapons to us and the military police,
3 and the rest of the army did not have them.
4 Q. To speed matters up, my only question was if you agree that you
5 were armed on that occasion, at that place, with automatic rifles and
6 hand-held rocket launchers.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. You will agree with me, will you, that Mirsad Delija also had a
9 hand-held rocket launcher with him.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Will you also agree with me that right next to the site of the
12 checkpoint, there was a booth, a guard booth nearby?
13 A. That one was on the local road leading to the barracks; that is,
14 that booth was not on the main road.
15 Q. Are you aware that there was a field telephone in that booth?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And since you were on duty at that checkpoint for several days,
18 are you aware that there was a notebook in which a log was kept of stopped
20 A. No.
21 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] As a reference, Witness AE said,
22 on page 14005 --
23 JUDGE MAY: There is no need, Mr. Naumovski, to refer us to these
24 documents now. You can do that in your final submissions. Let us get on
25 with the cross-examination.
1 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 Q. Witness AW, did you see the moment when those vehicles that you
3 spoke about today were stopped?
4 A. What do you mean? What moment?
5 Q. Can we agree that those vehicles arrived from the direction of
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you see them arrive and get to that roadblock?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So you saw those vehicles when they were stopped?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you tell us who stopped them?
13 A. I couldn't really say it with certainty, but I think it was
14 Miralem Delija and Karaula.
15 Q. Did all those four vehicles arrive together or were they spaced
17 A. I really couldn't say.
18 Q. Very well. Let me put it this way: Would you grant it that it
19 was possible that not all four vehicles arrived simultaneously but at
20 different points of time, at certain intervals?
21 A. Possibly, because that morning, vehicles were being stopped
22 before and after so that --
23 Q. But we agree that it could have been so.
24 A. Yes, it could have.
25 Q. You told the Prosecutor today that after all that happened there,
1 and we shall come back to it, those vehicles were not allowed to move on
2 towards Kiseljak but they had to turn back towards Busovaca, didn't they?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Witness AW, if somebody claimed that those vehicles had not
5 arrived from the direction of Busovaca but from some other direction, then
6 that person would not be telling the truth, would they?
7 A. I don't understand what you mean.
8 Q. Well, if somebody said that those vehicles had arrived from
9 Kiseljak, then that person wouldn't be telling the truth because those
10 vehicles came from Busovaca, as you are telling us.
11 A. Yes, they came from Busovaca. I mean somebody could claim
12 something only if he saw those vehicles turning back to Busovaca.
13 Q. So if somebody stood by the bridge in Kacuni, towards Busovaca,
14 then they could see them leave Busovaca and move towards Kacuni, couldn't
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. But a person standing with you in that group at that checkpoint
18 knows exactly where those vehicles came from and where they were going
20 A. Well, maybe, but not necessarily, simply because there were cases
21 when a vehicle would be searched which had been removed from the main
22 road, and it's a position where one doesn't know which direction it came
24 Q. Right. I don't think, really, we have to dwell on this. But we
25 agree that the vehicles came from Busovaca and went back to Busovaca,
1 didn't they?
2 A. May I say something? I don't know; that is, I don't remember if
3 it was in my statement, but I just remembered something that we learnt
5 Q. No. No. No. The Prosecutor will ask you about that if he wants
6 to later.
7 When those vehicles were stopped, Witness AW, did you personally
8 call the brigade command by telephone?
9 A. No.
10 Q. So if somebody claims that you made a phone call, he is not
11 telling the truth.
12 A. Of course he's not.
13 Q. That whole conversation between Miralem Delija and persons in the
14 vehicle, you watched it all from some 20, 25 metres away.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And you agree that you could not hear their conversation or, in
17 point of fact, see the person that he was talking with in that first
19 A. Well, dimly, dimly; that is, I couldn't really have a clear view
20 of who it was.
21 Q. You say that at some point in time, you pointed your rifles at
22 those vehicles and began to surround them, if I understood you well.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And when was that?
25 A. I was focused on keeping my eye on the last vehicle in the
1 column. My rifle was on my shoulder and I simply watched them. But then
2 I looked and the first and the second vehicle, with those from our
3 formation from the military police who had stopped them, and then I saw
4 the opposite side, how they were taking the rifles off their shoulders,
5 cocking them, and telling me to do the same.
6 Q. All right. But if I understand you, it was following the reaction
7 of your colleagues who did the same thing that you did, but you didn't
8 know the concrete reason.
9 A. No, no, no. The colleague who was next to me, who was some 7 or 8
10 metres nearer those vehicles and saw the event, he got his rifle off his
11 shoulder and indicated to me that I should do the same.
12 Q. If I understood what you told us today, this whole event lasted
13 about ten minutes. Nobody got off those vehicles throughout that time.
14 A. I cannot really say for sure.
15 Q. But let me ask you like this: Did you see who it was that Miralem
16 Delija seized the pistol from?
17 A. I didn't.
18 Q. And when did you see that?
19 A. No, no, no, I did not.
20 Q. You told us today how many persons you judged were in the
21 vehicles, and you told us that the only one you recognised was Dragan
22 Vukadinovic and his car, didn't you?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. You also said that you heard from somebody later on, that is, from
25 one of your colleagues, that in one of those -- that Ignac Kostroman was
1 in one of those vehicles, wasn't he?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. However, today you said for the first time, because you did not
4 say that even to the investigators or in the summary that you did one of
5 these days in The Hague, that Hamdija Kajtaz mentioned that he had also
6 seen Cosic.
7 A. Yes. Cosic is a very widespread surname. I don't know which
8 Cosic he had in mind. It could have been a neighbour of his or ...
9 Q. Yes. But that's what you said in your statement, because after
10 that, you did not discuss it in detail either with Miralem Delija or
11 anybody else, and you are not really sure about anyone being there except
12 Dragan Vukadinovic, are you, you personally.
13 A. I personally, what I saw, I saw Vukadinovic. But I also trust my
15 Q. I really don't want to waste too many words on these events which
16 took place in the night of the 20th of January. Just one question: You
17 personally have no direct knowledge, about it, do you? All that you told
18 us about, what you said today in court, was recounting what you had heard
19 from other people, isn't it?
20 A. But a recounted yarn can also be true.
21 Q. We shall leave that to the Honourable Judges. We shall not go
22 into that.
23 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I meant to move on
24 to the second incident so perhaps this would be a convenient time. I
25 don't have too many questions; I think we shall be over very quickly.
1 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll adjourn now until half past.
2 Witness AW, don't speak to anybody about your evidence, until it's
3 over, during the break.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course, Your Honour.
5 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
6 --- On resuming a 11.39 a.m.
7 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Naumovski.
8 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Naumovski, please.
9 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I do
10 apologise for not having turned on my microphone.
11 Q. Witness AW, until now, we discussed this incident which occurred
12 on the 20th of January, 1993. We have completed this subject. Perhaps
13 just one more question in this regard. You said that for you, it was a
14 major feat, what you accomplished that day; is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Very well. Thank you. Let's move on to this event that occurred
17 a few days later, on the 24th of January, 1993. That's the day when the
18 checkpoint was re-established; is that right?
19 A. No.
20 Q. On the 24th of January, 1993, was there a checkpoint that was set
21 up at this place that we discussed a few minutes ago?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did you stop any vehicles on that day near that particular place
24 where the checkpoint had been placed earlier?
25 A. Vehicles were stopped, UN vehicles, but that is not on the main
1 road between Busovaca and Kiseljak.
2 Q. I understood that. If you allow me to repeat what you said, you
3 said that the UN vehicles wanted to force their way to the Silos, that is
4 to say, towards the barracks of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. However, do you also agree when I say that vehicles that were
8 moving along the main road of Kiseljak-Busovaca were also stopped in order
9 to be checked?
10 A. Yes, but after the UN vehicles were stopped.
11 Q. Very well. You spoke about these two vehicles today. Ivica
12 Petrovic was in one vehicle, and in the other were Srecko Kristo, whom you
13 know, and another gentleman, Igor Bogdanovic. Do you agree with me when I
14 say that these vehicles did not come to this place where they were stopped
15 at the same time but that they came one after the other?
16 A. Perhaps the difference was only a minute or two, not more than
18 Q. Very well. Do you agree with me -- sorry. Perhaps I should put
19 another question before that. How far away were you from that point when
20 this first vehicle in which Ivica Petrovic was in was stopped?
21 A. About 10 to 12 metres.
22 Q. So you saw very well what was going on.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Can you agree with me that at the moment when this other vehicle
25 arrived, the one in which Srecko Kristo was, the driver of the first
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English
14 and French transcripts.
1 vehicle, Ivica Petrovic, was already outside the vehicle and had already
2 had his weapons taken away from him?
3 A. I don't understand. I'm sorry but I don't understand.
4 Q. Sorry. Perhaps it's my mistake. I'll try to put it in a simpler
5 way. Do you agree with me if I say that Ivica Petrovic got out of the car
6 and was immediately disarmed?
7 A. Yes. His personal weapon was taken away immediately, his pistol.
8 Q. Do you agree with me that after that the other vehicle was
9 stopped and that Srecko Kristo and this other gentleman, Mr. Bogdanovic,
10 also had to get out of their vehicle, they had to get out onto the road?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you agree with me that they, these three persons, Ivica
13 Petrovic, Bogdanovic, and Srecko Kristo, were forced to take the road
14 towards the Silos?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Very well. Do you agree with me when I say that they held their
17 hands up?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you. You talked about an improvised armoured vehicle coming
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Will you agree with me if I say that upon the arrival of this
23 vehicle, this primitive armoured vehicle - what should we call it? - that
24 the BH army soldiers started shooting at that vehicle?
25 A. This was only a consequence because they fired first. They fired
1 before that.
2 Q. All right. We're not going to squabble about that. I agree with
3 that as your answer.
4 Do you agree with me that Ivica Petrovic was the first person
5 killed while he was standing on the road, outside his vehicle?
6 A. No.
7 Q. So if I understood you correctly, you stand by your claim that he
8 was killed in the car.
9 A. Correct. He was killed while the vehicle was moving, when there
10 was already crossfire, when the vehicle was hit and it skidded off the
11 road, and he was already dead.
12 Q. Do you agree with me if I say that Igor Bogdanovic was killed with
13 this bazooka, this hand-held mortar, whatever you call it precisely in
14 military terminology?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Do you agree with me that both of them, namely, Petrovic and
17 Bogdanovic, were killed by the soldiers of the BH army?
18 A. As for Bogdanovic, I can [Realtime transcript read in
19 error "can't"] claim that he was killed by the BH soldiers, and I'm not
20 sure about Petrovic.
21 Q. My colleague tells me that there is a mistake in the transcript.
22 You said as for Bogdanovic, "I can confirm that he was ..." Is that what
23 you said, that he was hit by the --
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. There's a mistake in the transcript. It says that you cannot
1 confirm so I had to intervene. Very well.
2 So let us conclude by saying that we agree, on the 24th of
3 January, 1993 --
4 JUDGE MAY: There is no need to repeat all the evidence. Now, is
5 there anything new you want to ask the witness, please, Mr. Naumovski,
6 Because we should really be getting on.
7 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Precisely. With your permission,
8 I have to go on because my question is related to this. I am going to
9 finish straight away.
10 JUDGE MAY: Yes, very well. Ask the next question, please.
11 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Since two persons were killed at this particular place in Kacuni,
13 Petrovic and Bogdanovic, do you agree with me if I say that if someone
14 were to claim that only one man was killed, that person would not be
15 telling the truth?
16 JUDGE MAY: Look, that's a comment. He's agreed that two people
17 were killed.
18 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
19 Q. Witness AW, you don't know how Srecko Kristo managed to save
21 A. There are two versions.
22 Q. I don't want you to infer anything. Did you see him as he saved
23 himself or did you not see him?
24 A. Well, look, when this situation came up with the armoured vehicle
25 that was then used by the HVO, when fire was opened, then Kristo, Srecko
1 Kristo, was outside the car. He went away and I don't know about the
3 Q. Very well. That is sufficient. He escaped somewhere, we don't
4 know where, so we agree on that.
5 One more detail. Do you agree with me if I say that on the 24th
6 of January, 1993, not far away from this place, there was a truck that was
7 prepared that had logs loaded onto it that could quickly be used to put up
8 a roadblock?
9 A. Whether that was its role, I don't know. But I do know that a few
10 days before that, before this event that we are talking about, four or
11 five trucks that came from the surrounding hills had some kind of load,
12 but they were not allowed to leave Kacuni.
13 Q. I think that you misspoke, or perhaps I did not hear what you
14 said. Were these trucks with logs?
15 A. Yes, yes, with wood, logs, and they spent some time in Kacuni. I
16 don't know exactly.
17 Q. Thank you. You said today that after that, on the same day, a
18 Muslim house was torched in Kacuni.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. However, I would like to suggest the following to you: that you
21 actually do not know who set this house on fire and how it was set on
23 A. The owners know.
24 Q. When I say that you don't know, I am referring to the statement
25 that you gave to the investigators saying that it appears that the HVO had
1 set the house on fire. So it's just a story that you heard; right?
2 A. It's a different story if I hear that from you or if I hear that
3 from the owner of the house with whom I am on very close terms. And if
4 that house's owner is recorded with the police, the authorities of my
5 country, as having said that that happened, then that's the way it is.
6 Q. If what you are saying is correct, I imagine that this was taking
7 place during this crossfire, during this exchange of fire that you were
8 speaking about.
9 A. Exactly after 30 minutes. Thirty minutes after the crossfire,
10 this house was set on fire.
11 Q. Very well. If I understood you correctly, you said today that you
12 remained in that area throughout this conflict which lasted for about ten
13 days or whatever, whatever you said.
14 A. No.
15 Q. What about these few days? Were you in the wider region of
17 A. Well, I was in the area of Kacuni for, perhaps, three days or four
18 days maybe.
19 Q. Did you participate in these military actions in Nezirovici, Gusti
20 Grab, Prosje, et cetera?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Let us not go into too many details. I am going to ask you if you
23 agree with me if I say that the result of all this fighting that you
24 participated in was that about 2.200 Croat civilians were expelled from
25 the area --
1 JUDGE MAY: There was no evidence in chief about this. Now, we
2 must get on instead of all this evidence and all this detail. Now, unless
3 you've got another question to ask, it's time this cross-examination came
4 to an end. It's been going for the best part of 40 or 50 minutes.
5 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I promised that I
6 would be brief, so, indeed, I'm not going to be too long. Only two or
7 three more minutes.
8 Q. We mentioned the Silos a few times. Do you agree with me that at
9 the Silos there was the barracks of the BH army, but also that there was a
10 prison there where Croats were held?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Thank you. After a ceasefire was agreed upon, do we agree that
13 there were only occasional incidents after the ceasefire was signed in
14 1993, and that there wasn't any heavy fighting until the 15th of April,
15 1994; is that correct?
16 A. Yes, that is correct.
17 Q. And then on the 15th of April, on the 15th of April, 1993, this
18 other part of the conflict started with the fighting in Kuber.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. I had some other questions prepared. However, in view of what the
21 Honourable Judge said, I think that I could conclude my cross-examination
22 in this way. I should like to thank you.
23 JUDGE MAY: Well, if you've got some other relevant questions
24 to ask, you can. But wide-ranging and irrelevant questions will not be
1 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I just looked at them
2 and I realised that I would not be making much headway in terms of facts,
3 so I thought that I could conclude at this point.
4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Mikulicic.
5 MR. MIKULICIC: I have no questions for this witness, Your
7 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] Two short questions,
8 Mr. President.
9 Re-examined by Mr. Lopez-Terres:
10 Q. [Interpretation] Witness AW, you spoke to us about an individual
11 who was involved in the murder of Mirsad Delija. You spoke about Spomenko
12 Akrap, who was known as Charlie.
13 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I do apologise, but I did not
14 mention him in the cross so I don't see any reason for putting this
16 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
17 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation]
18 Q. On the 24th of January, without the intervention of that
19 improvised -- had it not been for that intervention on the side of that
20 armoured vehicle, we are sure that those three, Bogdanovic, Srecko, and
21 Petrovic, would have been able to go through normally. They would have
22 been able to continue had that vehicle not been there.
23 A. It's very simple. When the pistol, when the personal weapon was
24 taken away from Petrovic --
25 Q. Please answer yes or no. Had the truck that had fired not
1 fired on them, would those three people have been able to go on? Would
2 you have just let them go by?
3 A. Of course, yes.
4 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.
5 JUDGE MAY: Witness AW, that concludes your evidence. Thank you
6 for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 [The witness withdrew]
9 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I hope to take the next witness shortly.
10 The afternoon's witness, who has particular characteristics and
11 difficulties which will make it impossible for him to be here tomorrow,
12 can start at 2.30. If we haven't finished this witness by 1.00, I might
13 be asking to interpose the other witness.
14 JUDGE MAY: Very well.
15 Can we have the pseudonym, please, for the next witness.
16 THE REGISTRAR: The pseudonym for the next witness will be Witness
18 [The witness entered court]
19 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness take the declaration.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
21 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
22 WITNESS: WITNESS AX
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 Examined by Mr. Nice:
25 Q. The Chamber has granted you protective measures. Throughout your
1 testimony, you will be known as Witness AX. Please look at this piece of
2 paper and, without giving your name, say if this is your name written on
4 A. It is, yes.
5 Q. Witness AX, having been in the JNA, were you, between 1992 and
6 1996, in the BiH army?
7 A. Yes, I was.
8 Q. Do you have experience in communications work?
9 A. Yes, of course.
10 Q. What work were you doing between January and April 1993, in
12 A. In a nutshell, I was engaged in listening to or, if you like,
13 audio-surveying various telephone communications.
14 Q. Where was the telephone line that you were listening to diverted
15 from or coming from?
16 A. As a rule, that line that I was listening in to came from the area
17 of Busovaca, from the area of Kacuni or its surroundings.
18 Q. Thank you. Initially, how many people were engaged in this work?
19 A. At the outset, I alone was assigned to it, but later on I was
20 joined by several more men; altogether, seven people who knew about that,
21 that is, seven people who knew about that kind of work.
22 Q. Who was the officer in charge of the work? Paragraph 12.
23 A. Edin Husic.
24 Q. In summary, what was the machinery you were using?
25 A. It was a machine which looks like the answering machine - that's
1 how I would put it - which had a headset if one wanted to listen in.
2 There were also relevant buttons on that machine so that one could operate
3 it, and also it used mini-tapes.
4 Q. A point of detail. What procedure did you use to start and stop
5 recording? What button or combination of buttons did you use?
6 A. Yes. I opened the deck in order to put in the tape. Of course, I
7 would close it then and prepare the machine for the surveillance, for the
8 recording of conversations. So there was a button with "record" on it and
9 a button with "play" on it, and I would press the two of them in order to
10 set the machine for the recording of conversations. And when, through the
11 earphones, I would hear that there was something, that one could hear
12 something, I would release the first button, the record button, and leave
13 the play button on, and that is how it worked.
14 Q. How did you stop the recording at the end of the recording?
15 A. I would, again, press the pause button, which said "pause," and
16 that would be the end, the end of the recording of the conversation.
17 Q. And to start the next recording, what button did you activate?
18 A. You mean for the next conversation?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. I would, again, press pause and then it would be recorded again.
21 Q. Were the mini-cassettes that you've described kept? Were some of
22 them kept or were they reused?
23 A. After the recording, I would hand over the cassettes to Edin
24 Husic, but they -- some of them were used only once; some of them were
25 re-recorded several times.
1 Q. Having been handed to Edin Husic, did you ever, yourself, see what
2 he did as the next stage?
3 A. Well, I can say I saw one on the table. He was using something
4 like a dictating machine; I think that is what it was. It also, of
5 course, used the mini-cassettes. They would be put into the dictating
6 machine, and then with some cables that were plugged into a normal record
7 player, he would then copy it from the mini-cassette onto a normal
9 Q. Thank you. How, if at all, were the people speaking on the
10 conversations you listened to and recorded identified?
11 A. Could you please be clearer? I don't understand.
12 Q. Did you, in the course of your work, get to know some of the
13 voices you were listening to by identifications, by names?
14 A. Yes, of course. In the beginning, Edin Husic was with me
15 indicating some voices to me and giving me the names of those people. But
16 some of them, I had heard before that on television, so that in time I
17 became familiar with them and became able to identify them.
18 Q. Was there one particular conversation that you could and can
20 A. Yes. There was a conversation which I recorded, and I think that
21 was the most important conversation that I did at that time, the most
22 important conversation that I recorded.
23 Q. Can you tell us, in your own words, what you can remember of it
24 and what you can remember of who the participants in the conversation
25 were, please?
1 A. It was a conversation between Dario Kordic and Tihomir Blaskic.
2 In a nutshell, what I remember best from that conversation is that Tihomir
3 Blaskic told Dario Kordic that, in the vicinity of Kacuni, two soldiers of
4 the Croat Defence Council had been killed near Kacuni. Dario Kordic
5 replied that one should select targets for multi-barreled rocket launchers
6 and aim them at the places of Kacuni, Glugova, and I think Poljana too,
7 but I'm not quite sure about that; and to burn everything down with those
8 rocket launchers, that is, those villages and their surroundings; and that
9 for every killed Croat soldier, they should kill 100 civilians, that is,
10 100 for one.
11 Q. So far as this particular conversation is concerned, was it
12 recorded in the ordinary way or was there anything different about this
13 from the others?
14 A. I recorded that conversation as it was recorded the first time,
15 and it was recorded properly. There were no difficulties during the
16 recording; everything went all right. The cassette was all right, and
17 that particular cassette, as I had recorded it, I handed over to Edin
18 Husic. And that was one of the mini-cassettes.
19 Q. Were you subsequently seen by investigators of the Office of the
20 Prosecutor, in particular, an investigator called Sue-Ellen Taylor?
21 A. Yes, of course.
22 Q. And, indeed, did you speak to her on two days in 1999?
23 A. I did, yes.
24 Q. Help us, please, with your then state of recollection. Did you,
25 at that stage, recall the detail of the conversation which you've told us
1 about or not?
2 A. I remember some of those details that I told you about a moment
4 Q. Were you played the tape by the investigators at some stage in the
5 course of your meeting with them in 1999?
6 A. Yes. I listened to the tape.
7 Q. What voices, if any, were you able then to recognise on the tape?
8 A. I recognised the voice of Dusko Grubesic; I recognised the voices
9 of Dario Kordic and Tihomir Blaskic from this conversation, because they
10 also played several other voices which I recognised apart from this one
12 Q. The conversation that you've told the Court about, was the
13 conversation one of those that was played to you on that occasion?
14 A. Yes, yes. Yes, it was
15 MR. NICE: Thank you very much, Witness AX. Can you wait there.
16 You'll be asked some further questions?
17 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
18 Cross-examined by Mr. Naumovski:
19 Q. [Interpretation] Witness AX, allow me to introduce myself. I am
20 Mitko Naumovski, a lawyer from Zagreb, and with my colleague, Stephen
21 Sayers, I am defending Mr. Dario Kordic.
22 Since you will understand my questions straight away, will you
23 please wait with your answer until my question is interpreted into the
24 official languages of this Tribunal, to facilitate the work of the
1 Witness AX, while preparing for today's testimony, did you read
2 the statements that you gave previously to the investigators of the Hague
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. Did you also read the testimonies of experts Koenig and Broeders?
6 A. I don't know about that.
7 Q. Did you, while you were preparing for this, read the statement of
8 Edin Husic?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Tell us, please, did you, during the past year or so, speak to
11 Adnan Beganovic?
12 A. I think we met once and that we talked.
13 Q. When I said "speak," I wasn't precise enough. I mean a
14 conversation about this, about what you testified today in the court.
15 A. Oh, no, in no way.
16 Q. Tell us, please, did you talk with Mr. Edin Husic?
17 A. No.
18 Q. You did not talk with him at all?
19 A. I did not.
20 Q. I must tell you that Mr. Edin Husic, when he testified before this
21 Court, on page 27111, said that he had spoken to you and told you that he
22 had testified, and you also told him that you had given a statement to the
23 investigators. Maybe this will jog your memory.
24 A. I believe we met once somewhere in the town, but I did not, I
25 think, recognise him straight away. I think it was in Avlija. But, yes,
1 quite true, I did not recognise him right away. Yes, I've just remembered
3 Q. So we agree that Mr. Husic told the truth about it.
4 A. Could you repeat the question, please?
5 JUDGE MAY: That's not what the witness said. He said he had seen
6 Mr. Husic in the town. He hadn't agreed with what you put to him.
7 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Honours, but I
8 heard the witness say, "Yes, I've just remembered." So I'm asking him
9 again. Does he also remember this second part that Mr. Husic spoke about
10 and if that is true.
11 A. I cannot remember if he told me that he had testified in the
13 Q. Thank you. A few questions about your service, about your
14 surveillance service, which went on for some five months or so, didn't it?
15 A. Yes, yes.
16 Q. In January 1993, that is, in January, several people were involved
17 in that. You were one of them and Mr. Beganovic too, I suppose.
18 A. Yes, yes.
19 Q. And your task was to record all the conversations over that
20 particular line which was under audio surveillance.
21 A. Yes, yes.
22 Q. Will you please wait before you answer not to make the work of the
23 interpreters more difficult.
24 A. Very well. I agree.
25 Q. You personally did the transcripts, that is, you transcribed the
1 conversations recorded on those mini-cassettes, didn't you?
2 A. Yes, once or twice.
3 Q. Who had made the decision to do that, you?
4 A. Edin Husic asked me to do that.
5 Q. Do you now remember, after all those years, those two incidents?
6 What kind of conversations were recorded on those tapes which you then put
7 on paper?
8 A. I can't remember which were the conversations, but I am sure that
9 it was one of the conversations that I told you I had recorded.
10 Q. Very well. But weren't those conversations more important than
11 this one?
12 A. I don't think so.
13 Q. Thank you. And after you would record a conversation, you would
14 hand over the recorded cassette, the mini-cassette, to Husic, wouldn't
16 A. I would record the conversation or conversations and then I would
17 turn over the cassette to Mr. Husic.
18 Q. And in these two instances that you are referring to, you also
19 handed the transcripts over to him, didn't you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Tell us, please, did you -- in those instances when you did not
22 make the transcripts, did you also hand over some notes along with the
23 mini-cassettes to Mr. Husic, you know, just basic information about the
24 content of those tapes?
25 A. I can't remember that. No, I do not think I did it ever. I would
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English
14 and French transcripts.
1 only hand over the cassettes. There was no correspondence.
2 Q. On the mini-cassette that you would hand over, would you write --
3 did you write on it whose conversations had been recorded?
4 A. No, I did not write anything because those were his orders, not to
5 write anything on those cassettes.
6 Q. If I understand you well, Witness AX, at the moment when you
7 handed over the recorded cassette to your superior, to Mr. Husic, does he
8 know whose conversation is recorded on that cassette or doesn't he?
9 A. I just tell him that, or if I do not, then he listens to the
10 cassette and then knows whose conversations are on that cassette.
11 Q. That is he, himself, identifies, recognises, the voices that you
12 recognised before him.
13 A. Yes, because I think he knew them better than I did.
14 Q. Very well. I must say that your then colleague, Adnan Beganovic,
15 in a statement he gave to the investigators of the Tribunal on the 14th of
16 September, 2000, said that every time he recorded a conversation, he also
17 made a note and then he would attach it to the cassette and would hand
18 them together to Edin Husic. According to what you tell us, you did not
19 follow such a practice.
20 A. Well, perhaps that is what he did, but I did not do that. I would
21 orally inform Husic what was on the cassette, and sometimes I didn't. I
22 would just hand him the cassette over. It depended on whether the matter
23 was urgent or not.
24 Q. Very well. I was about to ask you some questions about this
25 specific conversation that you testified about today, but I must also tell
1 you that Mr. Husic told the investigators, on the 4th of December, 1999,
2 in paragraph 8, that on a piece of paper, from one of his men, he was
3 given a --
4 JUDGE MAY: Now, you are putting to the witness statements made by
5 somebody else. What can he do about that except comment? You are
6 inviting him to comment on some statement made by somebody else.
7 Now, that is not an admissible form of cross-examination. If you
8 have a point, make it.
9 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] With all due respect, Your
10 Honours, this is not just any man. Edin Husic is a man who testified and
11 to whom this gentleman here gave the material.
12 JUDGE MAY: We know that. You are inviting him to comment upon
13 what somebody else said in some statement or other. That is not his
14 evidence, that's an invitation for comment. When you address us, you can
15 make all these comments.
16 Now, the witness has given his evidence, his evidence in chief,
17 and you can ask him some questions about it. But don't put to him what
18 somebody else said in a statement.
19 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I understand, but
20 will you please understand me --
21 JUDGE MAY: That was not an invitation to argument, it was a
22 ruling. Now, will you get on, please.
23 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you, Your
24 Honours. I will move on.
25 Q. A few words about the equipment. You already told us about that
1 today so I won't dwell on this too much. But this machine, you said it
2 looked like an answering machine, that is what you told us, and it was
3 plugged into the normal electric energy, that is, it used a regular source
4 of energy, didn't it?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And the conversations were recorded on microcassettes, and when
7 one would be full, then you would replace it with another cassette,
8 wouldn't you?
9 A. Or I would turn the other side.
10 Q. No. I meant when it would be full on both sides, then you would
11 put a new cassette in, wouldn't you?
12 A. Well, it depended on the type of conversation. If I'd just begun
13 to listen in to a conversation which was important, regardless of how much
14 room there still was on that cassette, I would hand over that particular
15 cassette immediately.
16 Q. Very well. You also said today that only some of the cassettes
17 were used for more than one recording. Do you agree with that?
18 A. I do.
19 Q. And I guess those were some irrelevant conversations.
20 A. Yes, those that would be recorded over.
21 Q. And that re-use of cassettes happened only from time to time; that
22 is what you told the investigators in your statement.
23 A. I'm sorry, I don't understand the question.
24 Q. That it only -- that it was not a regular occurrence, that
25 cassettes were erased and re-used only from time to time.
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And we also agree that Mr. Husic taught you how to recognise
3 voices because he knew them better than you did.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You told us today that you once saw Mr. Husic re-record a
6 cassette, a mini-cassette, from a dictaphone to a normal tape recorder
7 which uses larger cassettes.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And we agree that this larger cassette player was also plugged
10 into a regular source of energy, don't we?
11 A. I think so, but it is also possible that it was battery-operated.
12 Q. Very well. After all, it doesn't really matter. Mr. Husic
13 explained it all himself.
14 You told us now that you remembered well this conversation, and
15 this is the next subject I want to move to, the conversation between
16 Mr. Blaskic and Mr. Kordic.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Could you be precise and give us the date when that happened? Do
19 you remember the date?
20 A. It was the latter half of January, 1993 was the year, and it could
21 have been the 21st, the 22nd, or the 23rd, that segment. So the second
22 half of January; I cannot really pinpoint the date.
23 Q. Very well. So we do not know the date. Do you remember, perhaps,
24 the time of the day when that conversation took place?
25 A. No.
1 Q. I suppose that later on you heard that there had been fighting
2 between the HVO and the BH army in that area, in the municipality of
3 Busovaca. I guess you heard about that through the media or ...
4 A. I don't know about the area of the municipality of Busovaca. I
5 don't understand your question.
6 Q. Then it must be my mistake. But did you hear about the conflict
7 between the HVO and the BH army in Busovaca in late January 1993, over a
8 wider area of the municipality? Well, if you heard about it, then you
9 know; if you didn't ...
10 A. Yes, yes, yes. Yes, I heard about it.
11 Q. I asked you that because I wanted to ask you the following: Could
12 you now be more specific as to the time when this conversation was
13 recorded? Could it have been that it was recorded after the conflict
14 between the HVO and the BH army broke out, the one that I asked you
16 A. I really don't know.
17 Q. Very well. Thank you. This conversation that you are talking
18 about is basically one of the first conversations or perhaps even the very
19 first conversation that you taped, and allegedly the participants in this
20 conversation were Mr. Kordic and Colonel Blaskic.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. At that time, you did not have enough experience in recognising
23 their voices.
24 A. I had already learned how to recognise their voices so it was not
25 difficult for me to recognise the voices. I recorded that conversation
1 and I handed that over the way it had been taped.
2 Q. Yes. If I understand you correctly, you were 100 per cent sure of
3 that. During that very first conversation that you taped, you were 100
4 per cent sure that these were conversations between Kordic and Blaskic.
5 A. That was the first important conversation I had taped. Before
6 that, some other conversations that were unimportant were listened to.
7 But this was the first important conversation I had recorded between
8 Kordic and Blaskic, and I was sure that these were their voices.
9 Q. Very well. You believe that this was a very important
11 A. Yes, that's right.
12 Q. And you say that you handed over that cassette to Edin Husic
13 without stating who was speaking on that cassette.
14 A. I think that I told him orally that this was a conversation
15 between Kordic and Blaskic. I did not make any notes.
16 Q. Very well. For example, do you remember whether you recorded any
17 other conversations during the shift that you were in that day?
18 A. I can't remember.
19 Q. Tell me, please, do you remember the tone of this conversation
20 that we've been referring to?
21 A. Well, I don't think that this was a conversation just in passing.
22 I think it was a very serious conversation and I don't think it was any
24 Q. If I understand you correctly, you're trying to say that the tone
25 was serious, that it was not a joking tone or it was not vivacious or
1 happy or anything like that.
2 A. Well, there were such conversations, but I think that the essence
3 of this conversation was serious. That was my conclusion.
4 Q. Witness AX, you said today that you remember precisely some of the
5 words that were recorded on that occasion that were taped, and you say
6 that Mr. Blaskic told Mr. Kordic that two soldiers were killed, two HVO
7 soldiers were killed, and then after that, Mr. Kordic said something else;
8 is that right?
9 A. Yes, that's what I said.
10 Q. You say that during these days, and I imagine when the
11 investigators took your statement, did you listen to this tape once
13 A. I did not listen to the tape.
14 Q. Sorry. Then I don't understand you correctly. Not on any one of
15 these two occasions?
16 A. During these past few days, I did not listen to the tape.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please speak into the
19 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Perhaps I was not very precise. But you had the opportunity of
21 listening to this over the past year or so when you talked to the
22 investigator whenever.
23 A. Yes, about a year ago.
24 JUDGE MAY: Witness AX, could you come closer to the microphone
25 because the interpreters are finding it rather difficult to hear you. If
1 you could remember to speak, please, into the microphone.
2 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]
3 Q. So, Witness AX, when you listened to this tape again a year ago,
4 whenever, do you agree with me that you noticed that there was laughter
5 and that the tone was a joking one and all of that on that tape?
6 A. Part of that conversation was played to me, not the entire tape.
7 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Naumovski, this manner of
8 cross-examination, you have already been told several times, the witness
9 has answered your question. Why don't you cross-examine him on matters of
10 fact rather than "How did you see this conversation?" You ask the same
11 questions every five minutes. You go around and around and then you ask
12 it over and over again.
13 Please focus your cross-examination on matters of fact, because
14 the examination-in-chief lasted 15 minutes and you have been
15 cross-examining the witness for the past 20 minutes. So come to the
17 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour. I shall
18 try to be as fast as possible. Well, all right, I'll try to go by what
19 you said as much as I can.
20 Q. Witness AX, my question was basically the following: Do you agree
21 with me that, to the best of your recollection, it is impossible to
22 remember that what you heard a year ago is absolutely identical to
23 everything that you recorded in 1993?
24 A. It is absolutely identical.
25 Q. So you remember every minute detail of that conversation from
2 A. I did not say that.
3 Q. So what is identical? Sorry.
4 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Naumovski, you cannot
5 cross-examine in this manner. You put a question to the witness and then
6 you ask the witness: "What you heard, did it sound identical?" and he
7 says, "Yes." After that, you say, "Even to the slightest detail?"
8 Can anyone in the world listen to a conversation eight or, I don't
9 know, ten years ago and say that it is absolutely identical down to the
10 last detail? I find it absurd. I believe that you really should move on
11 to a different subject. The witness has answered your question.
12 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if that is not
13 contested, then, fine, I have no further questions about this. Yes, I
14 also believe that it is quite impossible to remember all of that. But
15 then I have a different question.
16 Q. Witness AX, you say today that you remember that Mr. Blaskic said
17 to Mr. Kordic that two members of the HVO were killed. I have to tell you
18 that from this transcript that I got a few days ago, that is one of the
19 versions that we got, it says the other way around; that Kordic said to
20 Blaskic that two -- that two were killed and Blaskic is surprised by this
21 because he had not heard about it. So your memory is not very good then,
22 is it?
23 A. I abide by the statement I gave the first time. That's the way it
25 Q. Thank you.
1 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] With the permission of this
2 Honorable Court and Your Honours, I have to say this to the witness for
3 professional reasons:
4 Q. Adnan Beganovic said that he had a very good ear because he's
5 a musician and he knows how to discern voices that he recorded very well.
6 Can you agree with that?
7 A. I don't know about Beganovic and about the ear he has.
8 Q. Beganovic says that he listened to this same conversation in 1999
9 and that only -- and that he is only 80 per cent sure that it is
10 Mr. Kordic and Mr. Blaskic talking, but that he was not 100 per cent sure.
11 MR. NICE: That the Defence objected to our calling when we
12 offered him, that's the other person, it really is quite --
13 JUDGE MAY: Beganovic?
14 MR. NICE: Yes. They objected and the Chamber sustained the
16 JUDGE MAY: Well, Mr. Naumovski, how can you put something when
17 you've objected to the witness giving evidence? First of all, it shows
18 how wrong it is to put statements which somebody else made, but it's also
19 wrong when you've kept some evidence out, then, to start trying to use the
20 statement. These questions are all disallowed.
21 Now, is there anything else you want to ask?
22 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour, if I quoted a witness
23 whom I opposed, I am sorry. I do apologise but I don't remember that. I
24 have a few more questions.
25 Q. Witness AX, I have to tell you something finally - after all, it
1 is my duty - that never was a conversation conducted with this substance,
2 the kind that was played to you last year, and I think that you are aware
3 of that too, with that substance that was presented to you.
4 A. I am Witness AX. Will you clarify your question, please?
5 Q. I do apologise. I have to tell you the position of the Defence is
6 that never was there a conversation conducted that would be identical to
7 the one that was reproduced to you a year ago.
8 A. I confirmed to the lady investigator, Sue-Ellen, that that was the
9 conversation that I recorded, the conversation that was played to me a
10 year ago.
11 Q. If I understood you correctly, you did not listen to the entire
12 tape but only parts of it on that occasion.
13 A. I think that she played this so that I could recognise the voices,
14 so that I could recognise the most important part of that conversation or
15 perhaps some other parts too, to identify that I was the person who
16 recorded that conversation and I confirmed that. I said yes.
17 Q. All right. I understand that. It's my last question. I did not
18 understand your answer very well. Do you agree that the investigators
19 played only parts of the tape to you, not the tape in its entirety?
20 A. I think that they only played longer portions of the tape.
21 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you, Witness AX. And I
22 thank the Court for their patience.
23 MR. MIKULICIC: I have no questions, Your Honour.
24 Re-examined by Mr. Nice:
25 Q. Just a few more questions, Witness AX. As to the playing of the
1 conversation to you by the investigator Sue-Ellen, at the time that that
2 conversation was played to you, had you been able already to tell
3 Sue-Ellen, the investigator, any details of the conversation as you
4 remembered them?
5 A. Yes, of course.
6 Q. As to that conversation, was that conversation played to you in
7 its entirety by the investigator on that occasion in 1999?
8 A. Not in its entirety. Part of the conversation was replayed to me
9 and I recognised it for sure. I said that it was what I had recorded.
10 Q. As to recognition of voices, not in 1999 but at the time you
11 handed the tape over to Husic, were you dependent on Edin Husic for
12 identifying the voices of Kordic and Blaskic or did you have any other
13 ways of identifying those particular voices?
14 A. Yes. At first I could rely on Edin Husic for identifying voices,
15 and before that, I also recognised some of the voices I had listened to so
16 they were not altogether foreign to me.
17 Q. You recognised them from where?
18 A. Television.
19 Q. Did that apply to either of the voices that you heard on this
20 particular conversation?
21 A. Yes, both voices.
22 Q. You've been asked questions about the date of the event, that is,
23 the tape recording. Was it preceded or was it followed by any event that
24 helped you focus on it?
25 A. I think that I recorded that a day or two before the village of
1 Kacuni or the surroundings of the village of Kacuni were actually shelled,
2 so I was the first one to hear this order live.
3 Q. Did the fact of the shelling of Kacuni thereafter play some part
4 in your remembering this particular conversation?
5 A. Yes. That is why I remember this conversation.
6 MR. NICE: That concludes the questions that I have to ask, but
7 there are two matters arising. One, it's unclear to me at the moment
8 from the questions that have been asked whether it's being challenged that
9 this conversation occurred at all or whether it was a conversation that
10 took place in a light-hearted sense and has been misunderstood.
11 JUDGE MAY: As I understand it, both. The pleading, as I
12 understand it - I will be corrected if I am wrong - is that the
13 conversation did not take place, but if it did, it was a light-hearted
15 MR. NICE: Well, Your Honour, that's my understanding from where I
16 am sitting and I am grateful for Your Honour's assistance. In those
17 circumstances, it might be that the Chamber would want the witness to hear
18 the tape-recording again for his comment on the light-heartedness. For my
19 part, I --
20 JUDGE MAY: That's a matter for the Trial Chamber, and we've
21 already heard parts of it.
22 MR. NICE: In which case, Your Honour, then I have nothing else to
24 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.
25 Witness AX, that concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to
1 the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.
3 [The witness withdrew]
4 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I don't know if we can take the next
5 witness after the lunch break and I don't know if, without an excess of
6 impertinence, I could invite the Chamber to perhaps start a little early,
7 because I think it may be fairly difficult to fit all his evidence into an
8 hour and a half.
9 JUDGE MAY: I am afraid for personal reasons, my personal reasons,
10 it's not possible. It will have to be at half past two. We'll do our
11 best to fit it in. It may be we'll have to sit a little later.
12 Have we had summaries?
13 MR. NICE: No. He's arrived literally this morning and he's being
14 spoken to at the moment. They will be provided as soon as they are
16 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We need to consider what we have to deal with
17 tomorrow. Perhaps counsel would put their minds to that --
18 MR. NICE: Certainly.
19 JUDGE MAY: -- those issues which are outstanding. If anyone
20 wants to make any submissions on the tape, then they can be made
21 tomorrow. There is a motion to strike, as it's called, Witness AO's
22 testimony. There are the various Defence materials.
23 MR. NICE: I'm sorry. And rejoinder witnesses.
24 JUDGE MAY: Oh, yes, rejoinder witnesses. Yes.
25 MR. NICE: And revisit very briefly the logbook. It's not the
1 diary, it's the book that records outgoing messages. I said I was going
2 to explain that last week and I'll raise that again.
3 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Sayers.
4 MR. SAYERS: Mr. President, I made a little list. I think that
5 there's a revised list of rebuttal exhibits by the OTP that needs to be
7 In terms of our rebuttal case, I'd like to update the Chamber. We
8 had planned, before we knew what the Court's evidentiary rulings were, to
9 bring Brigadier Nakic back to testify but that's not necessary. We have
10 two witnesses who are here. Summaries have been delivered. The Court can
11 see that they are both, I would say, five-minute witnesses. Then we have
12 a third witness and his summary is being worked on right now.
13 I would also like to raise the issue with the Trial Chamber, if I
14 may, of closing arguments and allocation of time.
15 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, all that will have to be discussed
17 MR. SAYERS: I didn't want to get into hot water like we did with
18 the opening statement, Mr. President, by dividing up the closing arguments
19 as we did the opening statements without the Trial Chamber's advanced
21 JUDGE MAY: It may be that we will revisit that, and if you have a
22 sensible plan, we will obviously listen to it.
23 MR. SAYERS: Yes. We have made two motions. One, I suspect I
24 know what the Court's disposition is going to be. It was a request to
25 submit to the warden a request for an opinion regarding good behaviour. I
1 think that the --
2 JUDGE MAY: It will follow the other one.
3 MR. SAYERS: And we've also made a motion to cease the mandatory
4 monitoring of Mr. Kordic's telephone calls to his family and others.
5 With respect to the tape submissions, we'll make the submission
6 tomorrow. Thank you.
7 JUDGE MAY: Half past two, then.
8 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.52 p.m.
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English
14 and French transcripts.
1 --- On resuming at 2.35 p.m.
2 [The witness entered court]
3 JUDGE MAY: Yes, let the witness take the declaration.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will speak
5 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Ms. Somers.
7 MS. SOMERS: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 WITNESS: HALID GENJAC
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 Examined by Ms. Somers:
11 Q. Would you please state your full name.
12 A. Halid Genjac.
13 Q. And your place of birth?
14 A. Born in Visoko, on the 8th of March, 1958.
15 Q. And by education, you are a medical doctor; is that correct?
16 A. It is, yes.
17 Q. Do you have a specialty?
18 A. I am an obstetrician and gynaecologist.
19 Q. Do you have a subspecialty? And if so, where did you study for
21 A. It was in Zagreb; subspecialisation in medical cytology, and
22 that was in Sarajevo.
23 Q. Did you serve in the military? And if so, when and in what
25 A. I served in the army from 1981 to 1982, and I was a physician, as
1 a military physician.
2 Q. Which army would that have been?
3 A. That was the former Yugoslav Peoples' Army.
4 Q. Dr. Genjac, would you please indicate your current occupation?
5 A. At present I am a member of the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
6 and I have held this post since November last year -- rather, no,
7 November, this year. Sorry.
8 Q. Just to clarify, Dr. Genjac, is this the post that had been, until
9 his retirement, held by Alija Izetbegovic?
10 A. Yes, indeed. After Mr. Izetbegovic retired as the Chairman of
11 the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina, under the law in effect, I am now
12 substituting for Mr. Izetbegovic as a member of the Presidency.
13 Q. Dr. Genjac, from the 6th of February, 1991 to the summer of 1995,
14 did you hold a post or a high position in the SDA in Travnik?
15 MS. SOMERS: This is number 7, Your Honours. I've skipped ahead
16 just for background.
17 A. Yes. During that period of time, I was the President of the
18 Municipal SDA organisation in Travnik.
19 Q. In the course of your being President of the Municipal SDA, did
20 you have some dealings with Dario Kordic as a representative of the HDZ?
21 Just some dealings, not discussing necessarily the level.
22 A. I remember three occasions when I was present at the same meetings
23 as Mr. Kordic.
24 Q. If you could briefly, if you are able to, indicate the years of
25 those meetings and the locations, please.
1 A. In early 1991, as far as I can remember, there was a meeting in
2 Vitez, and there were several presidents of municipal SDA organisations
3 who were present there, and Mr. Kordic headed the HDZ delegation.
4 Some time in mid-1991, as far as I can remember, that was July, in
5 Busovaca, there was a gathering, a kind of forum was held, and Mr. Kordic
6 was there too. I was there and several other presidents of municipal SDA
8 Then in 1992, in June, in Travnik, in the municipal hall, in the
9 conference hall of the municipal hall, there was a meeting - I, again,
10 call it a forum or, rather, a large meeting - attended by quite a number
11 of people, and among others, Mr. Kordic was also present.
12 MS. SOMERS: If the usher would be kind enough to distribute
13 Z141.1. I think that it's been distributed to counsel but Your Honours
14 need it, I believe. If a copy could be given to the witness as well.
15 Q. Dr. Genjac, in front of you is a list of those present at what has
16 been -- what you've described, I believe, a moment ago as a forum in
17 Travnik, where in attendance, Dario Kordic's name does appear, as does
18 your name, and your name does appear at the end along with Martin Udovicic
19 of the HDZ in the Working Presidency.
20 Does that mean relative only to that meeting, you were presiding
21 only at that meeting? The very last page of the document, Dr. Genjac, it
22 would be -- well, your name appears at the very end. In Serbo-Croatian it
23 would be page 11.
24 A. Yes, correct. The two of us are signed here as members of the
25 chair. That chair was set up ad hoc merely for that particular forum.
1 Q. What was the purpose of this type of forum which had Franjo Boras
2 representing the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
3 A. The meeting discussed the current political situation and problems
4 in this regard, and we wanted to inform the Presidency about the situation
5 on the ground, identify the problems arising there and possible solutions
6 to them.
7 Q. Dr. Genjac, as President of the Municipal SDA in Travnik, would
8 you have been informed or would you have attended a meeting that would
9 have been an interparty meeting between Dario Kordic and Ignac Kostroman
10 in January of 1993?
11 A. Well, it would have been natural to notify me about such a meeting
12 in the first place, because it is common knowledge that the SDA and the
13 HDZ were the strongest parties at the previous elections, judging by the
14 results in the Municipal Assembly. As the President of the municipal
15 organisation of the party, which had won the largest share of seats, I
16 invariably attended discussions and negotiations with HDZ representatives.
17 I think there is not even a single exception to that rule.
18 Q. If you were not able to attend such a meeting, of which you state
19 you would have had to be aware, what would you have done? Would you have
20 delegated someone?
21 A. In such situations, the municipal party boards, as a rule, appoint
22 a delegation and the head of such a delegation, and then those who are
23 members of the delegation report to the executive board about the course
24 of negotiations and the outcome; and then the results of a particular
25 meeting are then analysed by the party executive board, which I normally
1 chaired. So if I was not present at a particular meeting, I should have
2 been notified and reported to about the meeting at the session of the
3 executive board of the party, but that did not happen.
4 Q. And just to make it clear, you yourself were not - or were you -
5 present at any meeting in Travnik, at a place called Sumarija, where Dario
6 Kordic and Ignac Kostroman were said to be in attendance during January of
7 1993, let's say the 20th/21st of January, 1993? Were you yourself ever in
8 such a meeting if it occurred? Did you know of such a meeting?
9 A. I do not remember ever attending a meeting with Mr. Kordic and
10 Mr. Kostroman in January in Sumarija or, rather, in the building of
11 Sumarija, nor am I aware of such a meeting taking place.
12 Q. Did you take any measures to check to see if such a meeting may
13 have been attended by any of your colleagues in the SDA who would have had
14 to brief you on such a meeting?
15 A. I checked the minutes of the sessions of the executive board of
16 the Travnik Municipal SDA organisation, and I did not see such a meeting
17 recorded, or discussing a report of such a meeting. I also checked with
18 other colleagues, members of the executive board or, rather, some members
19 of the executive board, to see if they remember such a meeting, and those
20 that I talked to said they did not recall such a meeting.
21 Q. So there's nothing in a logbook and there's nothing in any of the
22 official records of the SDA reflecting such a meeting.
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. Do you know an individual named Ivo Arar?
25 A. No, I do not.
1 Q. Moving on to another point, Dr. Genjac, the second point for which
2 we have asked you to come. Discussing the political relationships in
3 Travnik from 1992 onward, can you describe the degree of participation by
4 the Croat Community in the municipal government of Travnik in April of
5 1992, let's say around the 11th of April?
6 A. Under the statute of the municipality of Travnik, there is an
7 executive board of the municipality, that is, municipal government, and
8 the municipal parliament, that is, pursuant to the prewar statute that
9 remained in force during the war.
10 As a state of war had been proclaimed in Bosnia-Herzegovina on the
11 11th of April, the parliament of the municipality of Travnik met and
12 appointed the War Presidency of the municipality. This was done in line
13 with the municipal statute which envisages such situations and lays down
14 the steps that need to be taken.
15 Now, the War Presidency of the municipality included about 50 per
16 cent Croats, by and large, representatives of the HDZ; there were also
17 Serbs, since, according to the last census, there was a considerable
18 percentage of Serbs in the municipality, and the War Presidency was
19 designated then. The President or, rather, the Chairman of this
20 Presidency was a Bosniak, and one could call it the municipal prime
21 minister; that is, the executive government was representative of the HDZ,
22 that is, a Croat.
23 That was the situation as of the 11th of April. The Presidency
24 succeeded the municipal parliament since quite a number of councilmen
25 could not attend meetings due to the war. They could not even get into
1 the territory of the municipality.
2 Q. To clarify that point, was the purpose of the -- were the
3 functions of the War Presidency the functions of the Municipal Assembly
4 but on a reduced scale of personnel?
5 A. The functions of the municipal parliament with a smaller number of
6 members except that the Presidency of the municipality, which was
7 duty-bound by the statute, had to inform the municipal parliament about
8 all of its decisions and these decisions had to be confirmed by the
9 Municipal Assembly, by the municipal parliament.
10 Q. Dr. Genjac, can you describe or tell us whether or not the Croat
11 participation was active both in this Presidency as a body and generally
12 in municipal life from that time forward?
13 A. There was obstruction from the very beginning, and it ended up in
14 a complete blockade by the HDZ members in the Municipal Presidency. After
15 the establishment of the Presidency, there were more and more frequent
16 requests for the establishment of an HVO government in Travnik, and the
17 consequences of the decisions taken by the HVO government in Travnik were
18 taken, such as the establishment of checkpoints, difficulties with the
19 freedom of movement, and so on and so forth.
20 Q. The boycotting of governmental actions, as you've described, was
21 there a point where the HVO made demands of the Muslims who remained in
22 the municipal legitimate government to come along or else?
23 A. That dialogue was ongoing. Since more and more parallel
24 institutions, parallel to the legitimate authority, were coming up, it
25 created serious problems in the municipality, and for that reason, we
1 proposed to conduct talks. But the question of an HVO government
2 invariably was put on the agenda.
3 And then in a meeting held in September on the premises of the
4 administrative building of the repair factory at Slimena, in Novi Travnik
5 municipality, at a meeting which lasted some four or five hours, there
6 were about five or six representatives of the HDZ or HVO and some five or
7 six representatives of the presidency of the municipality and the SDA
8 party. So there were also representatives of the presidency of the
9 municipality, and at that meeting, a kind of an ultimatum was put finally
10 by HVO representatives: Either the Muslims would accede to the HVO, that
11 is, desert the legitimate authorities, destroy the legitimate authorities,
12 or the HDZ-HVO would continue its work towards establishing the
13 fully-fledged HVO government in spite of the existence of the legitimate
14 presidency of the municipality.
15 And that was, perhaps, the last meeting on the subject where, very
16 clearly, a borderline was drawn between a doubtless existence of the HVO
17 which wanted to take over completely the municipal government.
18 Q. Dr. Genjac, can you indicate what the position was of the Muslims
19 who were in the legitimate government as to whether or not they were
20 encouraging the Croats to remain in the legitimate government? Did you
21 want them to stay in? Did you encourage it or did you suggest any other
23 A. After the implementation of election results in 1990, in every
24 municipality there was a fierce struggle for every position, for every
25 office in municipal authorities. In Travnik, according to the census,
1 there were about 10 per cent more Muslims than Croats, and the SDA was
2 awarded close to 10 per cent more seats than the HDZ.
3 However, regardless of these ratios and the population structure
4 and the election results, as soon as problems began to arise with the HVO
5 government, we suggested to found an executive board based on parity, on
6 an equitable representation of Bosniaks and Croats and an adequate
7 representation of Serbs, which would depend on their share in the
9 We always pointed that out as the only possibility to establish a
10 proper municipal government in a multiethnic town, and that is what we
11 repeated at that meeting in September 1992, which was held at Slimena. We
12 pointed out, of course, the constitution and the provisions in the
13 constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the provisions in the Travnik
14 statute. We also pointed out that the establishment of the HVO or,
15 rather, the recognition of the HVO and the work of the HVO, that that was
16 an anti-constitutional act, that it was violating the constitution, the
17 statute of the municipality of Travnik. And after all, we asked them,
18 "How can one, in a multiethnic community, have a government which will be
19 called after one ethnic community, after one people, which does not
20 represent the majority in any way whatsoever?"
21 Q. The references you made to constitutionality are not --
22 MS. SOMERS: The Chamber has already seen an exhibit which is 216,
23 Z216, which is the decision by the Constitutional Court of
24 Bosnia-Herzegovina in September of 1992 rendering -- holding
25 unconstitutional the Herceg-Bosna Community, HZ HB.
1 Q. Are you familiar with -- have you seen in the course of your work,
2 that decision? Are you familiar with its findings?
3 A. I am familiar with this decision of the Constitutional Court.
4 However, I think that the very essence was well known to every average
5 citizen of Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time. Before that, Serb-autonomous
6 provinces were established. In the media, in newspapers, in television
7 programmes, it was explained many times that the establishment of
8 Serb-autonomous provinces is anti-constitutional, that the constitution
9 prescribed how municipalities can set up associations.
10 I think that the citizens of Travnik also knew how
11 anti-constitutional the establishment of the Croat Community of
12 Herceg-Bosna was.
13 Q. Dr. Genjac, if I could ask you to take a look at what is labelled
15 MS. SOMERS: Just confirming, does the Chamber have before it this
16 document? It had been distributed earlier. Our apologies if it did not
17 make it to the Chamber. This has been previously provided to the Defence.
18 Q. Dr. Genjac, just very briefly, this document is from the Sluzbeni
19 List, the official gazette of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, dated 11
20 March 1994, referring to a decision taken earlier in January of 1994.
21 This decision, in the same vein as the decision taken by the
22 Constitutional Court on the Community of Herceg-Bosna, renders invalid the
23 Croatian Republic of Herceg-Bosna, what we refer to as HR HB. Are you
24 familiar with this decision as well?
25 A. Yes, I am familiar with it.
1 Q. Dr. Genjac, the decisions which were included in the Sluzbeni
2 List, how did you in Travnik receive these decisions, if you can explain
3 to the Chamber?
4 A. The municipal authorities periodically received sets of official
5 gazettes, Sluzbeni List, of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
6 Q. Even when there may have been wartime conditions prevailing, you
7 nonetheless received them?
8 A. Even in wartime conditions.
9 Q. Dr. Genjac, one last question: Did the Muslim community, which
10 remained in the legitimate government, favour the setting up of separate
11 institutions, or did it take a different position?
12 A. Actually, insistence upon legally-established institutions of
13 government is insistence upon legitimate institutions of government.
14 Separate institutions are not those that were established through the
15 statute of the Municipal Assembly, and that is the executive council and
16 the Assembly, the SDA, the political leadership. And wherever there were
17 Bosniaks in Travnik, they advocated the following position: that it was
18 only the presidency and the executive council that were legitimate organs
19 of government, and they advocated them as such?
20 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
21 MS. SOMERS: I'm terribly sorry.
22 Q. Therefore, separate police departments, the separate institutions
23 that arose through the Herceg-Bosna governmental entity were not ever
24 considered desirable by the Muslim community; is that correct?
25 A. Exactly.
1 MS. SOMERS: No further questions. Thank you.
2 Cross-examined by Mr. Sayers:
3 Q. Dr. Genjac, you were the leading politician representing Muslims
4 and the SDA political party in Travnik from February of 1991 until 1995, I
5 think you've said; is that correct?
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. So you were the principal political figure on behalf of the SDA,
8 if you like, throughout the war years, weren't you?
9 A. I was President of the municipal organisation of the SDA in the
10 mentioned period.
11 Q. Now, the Prosecution in this case has repeatedly put the
12 proposition to various Croat witnesses that politicians ultimately run
13 wars. Would you agree with that?
14 A. I know from my experience, from the experience that we had in
15 Bosnia-Herzegovina, who waged war. I know that as a politician I made
16 every effort to avoid war.
17 Q. But would you accept the proposition that we've repeatedly heard
18 put to witnesses in this case, and let me just put it to you, would you
19 accept the proposition that soldiers, even at the local level, are
20 ultimately answerable to politicians in their local theatre of operations;
21 yes or no?
22 A. Soldiers, even at local levels, ultimately carry out a policy, a
23 general policy. In the case of Bosnia-Herzegovina, one policy was defence
24 of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the other was aggression against
1 Q. All right, Dr. Genjac, let's depart from the general topic and let
2 me just ask you: Who was the politician in Travnik to whom the commanders
3 of the 3rd Corps and their associated brigades were answerable?
4 A. In Travnik, there was no such politician.
5 Q. So you don't accept the proposition that in the local area of
6 operations of the 3rd Corps, a politician was actually giving orders or
7 directions to the 3rd Corps or its associated --
8 JUDGE MAY: There's an objection.
9 MS. SOMERS: Your Honour, this line of questioning is well beyond
10 the scope of what was asked and what was to be rebutted. I would ask the
11 Court to direct counsel to stick to the issue.
12 MR. SAYERS: Do you care to hear from us, Mr. President?
13 Dr. Genjac has presented himself as a reasonable Muslim politician in
14 favour of ethnic harmony, and we would respectfully submit that the facts
15 in Travnik show precisely the reverse; that that was the subject of a
16 tremendous example of ethnic cleansing, with over 20.000 of the 26.000 --
17 JUDGE MAY: We have the point.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE MAY: We shall allow the cross-examination. In our view, it
20 is a proper matter for counsel to explore albeit that it was outside the
21 evidence in chief. But, Mr. Sayers, you will keep an eye on the clock.
22 MR. SAYERS: I will keep an eye on the clock, and I hope that I
23 will be through by 4.00 and we don't have to take any extra time, Your
25 Q. Dr. Genjac, are you telling us all in this courtroom today that
1 you, as the leading politician in Travnik, had no control over military
2 matters at all?
3 A. You know that the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the 3rd Corps
4 that you mentioned were organised on the basis of corps, lower level
5 units, and, of course, the commands of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
6 Q. Dr. Genjac, in the interests of time, it's perfectly acceptable to
7 say that you, as a politician, had absolutely no military power or the
8 ability to give instructions or orders to the army. Is that what you're
9 telling us; yes or no?
10 A. The army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Party for Democratic Action
11 were positioned and organised in such a way that this was not possible, as
12 far as the army and the SDA were concerned.
13 Q. So you are telling us that the 3rd Corps answered to its own chain
14 of command and didn't actually take directions or orders from
16 A. No, no, they did not taken instructions from local politicians.
17 Q. All right. Well, who was the politician in Central Bosnia to whom
18 the 3rd Corps commanders were, in fact, answerable; can you tell us that?
19 A. The commanders of the 3rd Corps were answerable to the command of
20 the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
21 Q. All right. And not to any individual politicians; is that what
22 you're telling us, Dr. Genjac?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. Very well. Now, you tell us that there were communications back
25 and forth, intermittent mailings, between the central government in
1 Sarajevo and you and your colleagues in Travnik. You concede, Doctor,
2 that in the spring, summer, fall, and, actually, winter of 1992, the
3 capital of your country, Sarajevo, was completely surrounded and cut off
4 from the rest of the country as a result of Serb aggression. I've got
5 that correct, haven't I?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. But as a result of the communications back and forth between, for
8 example, Travnik and the central government, cut off as it was in
9 Sarajevo - let's just focus on June of 1993 - the central government was
10 aware of the military situation in Travnik in June of 1993; would you
11 agree with that?
12 A. I agree.
13 Q. All right. Just a brief digression, if I may. Former President
14 Izetbegovic, when the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina was established on
15 March the 6th, after the independence referendum, it's true, is it not,
16 that the constitution of the former Socialist Republic of
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina continued in force; by that, I mean that there was no
18 new constitution adopted in March of 1992.
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. And according to that constitution, the Presidency was supposed to
21 rotate each year between representatives of the three constituent peoples:
22 a Serb one year, a Croat the next year, a Muslim the third year, and so
23 on; is that correct?
24 A. Correct. But wartime conditions were not described in that.
25 Q. Oh, I understand, sir. But you'd agree that Alija Izetbegovic
1 refused to step down after the conclusion of his one-year term, wouldn't
2 you? He refused to give up power; he remained the President and refused
3 to give it up.
4 A. I would not agree that he refused. As far as I know, that was the
5 position of the Presidency.
6 Q. You know, though, that the position of the Croats, just to focus
7 on one of the three constituent peoples, was that President Izetbegovic
8 had, in fact, illegally refused to give up power and was holding onto it
9 wrongfully after the conclusion of his constitutionally-authorised
10 one-year term; correct?
11 A. I think that that was used only as a pretext for weakening the
12 institutions of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
13 Q. Perhaps so, Dr. Genjac. But you will concede, won't you, that
14 that was the articulated position of the leading Croat politicians in 1992
15 and 1993?
16 A. I would not agree that this was a position that was articulated by
17 leading Croat politicians. I'm not aware of that.
18 Q. All right. And, of course, the Serbs boycotted the central
19 government pretty much altogether; in fact, they seceded from
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina and tried to ally themselves or annex themselves to
21 Greater Serbia; isn't that right?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. All right. One other subject that I'd like to cover with you.
24 I'm just going to go on, Mr. President.
25 You've taken the position, Dr. Genjac, that the HVO was an illegal
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English
14 and French transcripts.
1 organisation and that it was well known that it was illegal after the
2 September the 14th, 1992 Constitutional Court decision; do I understand
3 you correctly?
4 A. We knew that the establishment of the Croat Community of
5 Herceg-Bosna, even before the decision of the Constitutional Court was
6 passed, jeopardised the constitution of Bosnia-Herzegovina and infringed
7 upon it.
8 As for the HVO, since the statute of the municipality clearly
9 prescribed that the executive government in the municipality was the
10 executive council, it was quite clear that the HVO government was
11 anti-statutory, thus being anti-constitutional as well.
12 MR. SAYERS: I wonder if I could just ask the usher to put this
13 exhibit on the ELMO, please, Exhibit D24/1, an agreement dated April the
14 20th, 1993. Thank you.
15 Q. This agreement, Dr. Genjac, is signed by representatives of the
16 ECMM; Jean-Pierre Thebault; representatives of UNPROFOR, specifically
17 Lieutenant General Philip Morillon; and by the Commander-in-Chief of the
18 army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Sefer Halilovic; as well as the
19 Commander-in-Chief of the HVO, Milivoje Petkovic.
20 The very first paragraph says: "The BiH army and HVO are both
21 legal military forces of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and are
22 treated equally."
23 Are you familiar with that agreement?
24 A. I am familiar with that agreement. However, in your question, I
25 understood your -- I understood the question related to the HVO in terms
1 of organisation of government.
2 Q. There is no question, Dr. Genjac, that General Halilovic was fully
3 authorised by the government of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and by
4 President Izetbegovic to negotiate this agreement, is there?
5 A. Exactly.
6 Q. And, in fact, you are aware of an agreement signed just five days
7 later - Exhibit D27/1, Your Honours - in Zagreb, signed by Alija
8 Izetbegovic and General Sefer Halilovic, as Commander-in-Chief, and by
9 Mate Boban, and by General Milivoje Petkovic, his military commander.
10 The first paragraph of an annex to that agreement says: "The BiH
11 army and the HVO will retain their separate identities and command
13 You are fully aware of that decision, aren't you, sir?
14 A. Exactly. I am aware of that.
15 Q. And there's no question that President Izetbegovic was negotiating
16 on full parity with President Boban during the international negotiations
17 that occurred throughout 1992, 1993, and ultimately 1994; isn't that
19 A. We were talking about September 1992 and the efforts made to
20 destroy the existing governments in municipalities. 1993 and 1994 are a
21 different subject, as well as the question of the military component. I
22 was talking from the aspect of municipal executive organs, government
23 agencies, and the organisation of government as such.
24 Q. All right. But you are a representative of the Presidency right
25 now, Dr. Genjac, and I'd just like to focus your attention on the years
1 1992, 1993, and 1994. I'd like you to agree with me that President
2 Izetbegovic and President Boban were negotiating in full parity,
3 representing their various communities in the negotiations held before the
4 International Community during those years; that's correct, isn't it?
5 A. President Izetbegovic talked with Mr. Boban. In an effort to
6 resolve as many problems as possible, he acknowledged some facts that
7 cropped up in the field.
8 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, I think we have exhausted this topic. You
9 can refer us to any documents you want in your final submissions.
10 MR. SAYERS: I was about to move on, Mr. President. I think that
11 we've taken that one as far as it can go.
12 Q. Now, you tell us that insofar as Mr. Kordic in Travnik is
13 concerned, you have met Mr. Kordic a grand total of three times in your
14 whole life; is that right?
15 A. Three situations regarding certain types of gatherings, meetings,
16 where I was present as well as Mr. Kordic.
17 Q. Right. But three times in your life; is that right?
18 A. I do not remember any situations apart from that.
19 Q. All right. And you've told us about the two meetings that you had
20 with him nine years ago.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And the third meeting that you had in the middle of 1992. You
23 were shown an exhibit, which are the minutes of a meeting attended by 45
24 people including you, in Travnik, Z141.1.
25 Now, you said that the declaration of war occurred in April of
1 1992, but, Dr. Genjac, the Presidency actually only declared an imminent
2 threat of war existed on April the 8th of 1992; correct?
3 A. Correct. I said that in wartime conditions, in a state of war, in
4 a state of war, the Wartime Presidency functions. From the point of view
5 of the Presidency, the position of immediate threat of war and actual
6 state of war are the same.
7 Q. Well, the Presidency declared an actual state of war to exist on
8 June the 20th of 1992, just six days before this meeting; right? In fact,
9 it was as a result of that declaration, this national emergency that your
10 country was facing, in part at least, that this meeting was held. Would
11 you agree with that?
12 A. I don't think that this meeting was a result of that declaration
13 of a state of war.
14 Q. Very well. Now, on page 4 of this document, you are quoted, sir,
15 as saying: "The state of Croatia has done very much for the Republic of
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Muslim people, and they are thankful for all
17 they have done." And that was a genuine sentiment when you expressed it
18 to the 45 people that were assembled at that meeting; right?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. And Mr. Kordic is reported to have said, on page 9, that the
21 formation of Herceg-Bosna is a temporary resolution and that the three
22 constitutive peoples must agree on a final interior arrangement of the
23 state of Bosnia and Herzegovina. Were you -- do you recall those comments
24 that he made?
25 A. Of course many meetings were held over these past ten years. I
1 cannot remember what each speaker said, only if I were to refresh my
2 memory by having a look at the minutes could I say whether I could
3 remember or not.
4 Q. That's a perfectly fair observation, Dr. Genjac, if I may say so,
5 but let me just suggest to you that the explanations being given to your
6 party and people by the representatives of the Croat Community of
7 Herceg-Bosna that it was, indeed, a provisional solution designed to
8 address a temporary emergency wartime situation and would be in place
9 until such time as the final interior constitutional arrangements in the
10 country could be resolved. Isn't that true?
11 A. It could be understood as a temporary situation had it not been
12 for camps and persecution of populations, et cetera.
13 Q. That's not the question I asked, Dr. Genjac. The point I'm asking
14 you to acknowledge is that the explanations being given to you by the
15 leading politicians within the HZ HB was that that body was temporary,
16 designed to exist during war and to address the emergency conditions
17 created by war and that it would yield to a permanent arrangement
18 following a constitutional resolution of the -- or a resolution of the
19 country's ultimate constitution. Would you agree with that?
20 A. There were such explanations, however practice completely refuted
21 everything that these verbal explanations pointed to.
22 Q. Yes. Well, we'll get to look at practice in just a minute. But
23 let's turn to January of 1993. You said, I think, during your direct
24 examination, that you did not check with all of the members of the
25 executive board who existed in January of 1993 to find out whether
1 Mr. Kordic or Mr. Kostroman did actually attend a meeting in Travnik with
2 the SDA; is that right?
3 A. Quite accessible. I checked this out; however, a number of
4 persons have died in the meantime so I couldn't check it with them.
5 Q. So you cannot really testify to us today that Mr. Kordic and
6 Mr. Kostroman did not meet with other representatives of the SDA in
7 Travnik eight years ago. You simply can't remember or you can't find a
8 record of it. You have no knowledge of whether meetings occurred with
9 other people in the SDA other than you; isn't that right?
10 A. As president of the municipal organisation, and I chaired all
11 meetings of the executive council, I think that I can testify to that.
12 Q. But you can't testify that other people within your party met
13 Mr. Kostroman or Mr. Kordic on an ad hoc or other basis in January of 1993
14 in Travnik, can you?
15 A. Listen, any citizen of Travnik or any other town could meet
16 Mr. Kordic, but it wouldn't be a meeting between Mr. Kordic and the
17 Bosniak leadership of the municipality of Travnik.
18 Q. Let me just ask you, press you for a third time, if you can't --
19 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, I don't think there's any point.
20 MR. SAYERS: I agree.
21 JUDGE MAY: You've asked the question and the witness has
23 MR. SAYERS: Very well, Mr. President. I'll move on.
24 Q. Now, Mate Boban did not visit Travnik at any time during the year
25 1993 as far as you are aware, did he?
1 A. I did not see that, but there was -- there was this rumour, this
2 story told around the town that Mr. Boban had visited Travnik.
3 Q. But you didn't meet him, did you, or see him, and you don't know
4 whether that rumour is true.
5 A. In Travnik, I did not meet with him. I did not see him there, and
6 I do not know whether he came to Travnik and whom he met on such
8 Q. Very well. Just turning to April of 1993, it's true that in the
9 early part of the month, there was a brief outbreak of fighting in Travnik
10 as HVO soldiers were -- had bombs thrown at them by members of the 7th
11 Muslim Brigade and retaliated in kind; would you agree with that?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And indeed, it's true that the 7th Muslim Brigade did have its
14 headquarters in Travnik; isn't that right?
15 A. As far as I know, yes.
16 Q. In your witness statement that was given to the investigators in
17 August of this year, you contended that it was the Croats who were
18 whipping up tension and trying to ferment some kind of armed conflict in
19 Travnik. The next series of questions that I'm going to pose to you, Dr.
20 Genjac, I'm going to suggest to you show that the reverse is true. That
21 it was actually the Muslims that were planning an offensive against the
22 Croats, and that that offensive was actually launched in June of 1993. Do
23 you understand the suggestion I'm making to you?
24 A. Yes, I do.
25 Q. Now, just by way of background, do you recall in Travnik on
1 October 20th, 1992, Ivica Stojak was shot dead by a man by the name of
2 Semir Terzic, a member of the 7th Muslim Brigade?
3 A. I remember that Stojak was killed, but I do not know who killed
4 him or which brigade the person who killed him belonged to.
5 Q. Stojak was the HVO commander in Travnik, wasn't he?
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. And he is a colleague, Zvonko Gaso was also injured in the same
8 incident, wasn't he?
9 A. Yes, he was, correct.
10 Q. And you are aware, sir, that Zvonko Gaso's was wife was later shot
11 dead in her house by a Muslim --
12 JUDGE MAY: Now, Mr. Sayers, we are now going a very long way from
13 the evidence which this witness came here to give. The fact that
14 something was in his witness statement is not relevant to these
16 MR. SAYERS: I take your point, Mr. President. And I will move
18 Q. Were you aware, sir, that despite the picture of events that
19 you've painted of an SDA that wanted to negotiate and resolve things with
20 the HDZ-BiH and the Croats, were you aware that, in fact, the military
21 commanders of the 3rd Corps immediately prior to the offensive that was
22 launched in Travnik municipality had been refusing steadfastly to meet
23 with their counterparts in the HVO? Were you aware of that?
24 A. That is not true, absolutely not. No, that is not true. To begin
25 with, there was no offensive was launched. I simply cannot agree with
1 that. I can describe to you the circumstances between the end of 1992.
2 In the beginning of 1993, we seemed to indicate that since political means
3 did not produce the desired results, then arms would be taken up to do
4 that. Among other things, all the positions around Travnik were taken,
5 all the features around Travnik, freedom of movement was restricted and so
7 Q. The Trial Chamber has actually heard evidence in this case, Z1020,
8 it's a military information report, a military information summary
9 prepared by the British troops in the area, Dr. Genjac, and the following
10 is observed: "Negotiations reconvened but without the planned attendance
11 of Colonel Blaskic and General Hadzihasanovic. Blaskic had been willing
12 to attend but Hadzihasanovic, despite the intervention of
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina command, maintained his previous position by stating
14 that it was now too late for negotiation."
15 General Alagic is also order recorded as saying that he has no
16 faith in the political process. Did you ever hear the 3rd Corps
17 commanders articulate views like that to you that it was too late for
18 negotiation, political process had essentially come to an end and it was
19 time for the military process to start?
20 A. No, I'm not aware of that.
21 MR. SAYERS:. All right. A couple of documents I'd like to put
22 quickly on the ELMO, if I may.
23 Q. The first is dated, Dr. Genjac, June 7th, it's in English,
24 unfortunately. It comes from the Prince of Wales Own Regiment of
25 Yorkshire on June 7th and paragraph 4A, the British troops record that,
1 "The ABiH is now exclusively in control of the town of Travnik. There
2 would appear to be no groupings of Croat troops or civilians in the area."
3 And just above that observation, "The HVO headquarters appeared to have
4 been completely demolished."
5 Is that consistent with your recollection of what
6 went on in early June, that the Croats had been expelled from the town of
7 Travnik and that the military headquarters had been destroyed?
8 A. I do not remember that, but I know that overnight, close to 7.000
9 Croats moved out to Vlasic and that is a very traumatic fact. So I
10 remember that day and that night. To Serb territories, over 7.000 Croats
11 moved out to Serb territories over night, and it simply was beyond belief.
12 Q. One other document that we have received, it's been introduced
13 into evidence, produced by the Prosecution, Z1139.3 is a fairly
14 contemporaneous report that makes this observation in the second
15 paragraph, according to an ECMM representative, the military operations
16 started on June 8th, "Besides Maline, five villages were attacked
17 simultaneously at 4.30 a.m.: Brajkovici, Susanj, Grahovcici, Cukle, and
19 That's exactly what happened Dr. Genjac, isn't it? There was an
20 attack on the morning of the 8th by the 3rd Corps and elements under its
21 command such as the 7th Muslim Brigade.
22 A. I remember that the conflict began when HVO shelled the town of
24 Q. Very well. The ECMM report goes on to note the presence of about
25 1.000 Mujahedin in the area between Zenica and Travnik mainly from Iran,
1 Afghanistan, and Pakistan, determined to wage a holy war by the most
2 brutal methods.
3 Were you aware of that large concentration of Mujahedin in your
4 municipality and the adjacent municipality?
5 A. I was aware of the existence of a number of foreigners in the
6 municipality of Travnik.
7 Q. The Mujahedin -- now, the next document I'd like to have put on
8 the ELMO makes the observation, sir, nothing about the HVO shelling of
9 Travnik, but it talks about a long expected push. "The expected BiH
10 offensive in the area has begun. A major Muslim push is being made down
11 the Bila valley, towards Vitez and Travnik," and other observations are
13 Does that help refresh your recollection as to who was on the
14 offensive, whether it was the ABiH or the HVO?
15 A. At that time, I was in Travnik. That afternoon, we had a meeting,
16 a political meeting, and I know that the attack began with the shelling
17 of Travnik.
18 Q. Very well. The next document I'd like to show you is Exhibit
19 D194/1, one day later. It says, sir: "It would appear that Enver
20 Hadzihasanovic and the 3rd Corps are orchestrating a carefully planned and
21 phased attack against the HVO in the areas of Travnik and the western
22 Lasva Valley. In this context, Hadzihasanovic's constant refusals to meet
23 Blaskic and his failure to attend negotiations concerning the situation in
24 Travnik during that phase of the current fighting perhaps receive
1 That's exactly what was going on, Dr. Genjac, isn't it? It was
2 actually the 3rd Corps, under the command of General Hadzihasanovic,
3 which was, indeed, launching a carefully planned and phased attack against
4 the HVO in your municipality.
5 A. To begin with, I do not see any reason for which I should know if
6 Mr. Hadzihasanovic refused to attend a meeting. I really don't know
8 Q. Whether he did or he didn't, sir, the point I put to you was that
9 it, in fact, is true that General Hadzihasanovic and the troops under his
10 command launched a carefully planned and phased attack against the HVO in
11 your municipality and elsewhere. You'd have to agree with that, wouldn't
13 A. I was in the area. I cannot go against my common sense. I saw
14 and experienced the beginning of the attack which started when Travnik was
15 shelled. I saw that; I lived through that.
16 Q. All right. One --
17 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. The Trial Chamber has heard enough on
18 this topic which is outside what the witness came to give evidence about.
19 Mr. Sayers, you can refer us to all these documents in your final
20 submissions, and no doubt you will.
21 MR. SAYERS: Yes, indeed, I will, Mr. President, and I take the
22 Court's point.
23 With the Trial Chamber's leave, there's one final document that I
24 would like to show the witness, dated August the 14th, 1993, which is a
25 new document. There's one limited point that I'd like to make about this
1 document on the very first page.
2 Q. Dr. Genjac, the --
3 THE REGISTRAR: The document will be marked D354/1.
4 MR. SAYERS:
5 Q. The British military information gatherers noted on August the
6 14th of 1993 the following about Travnik: "that there had been an ECMM
7 report that the ABiH were using the remaining Croat population in and
8 around the town, 1.500 people, to dig second and third line trench
9 positions. The point was made, though, that the trench-digging programme
10 operated on a rota basis and was the same for the Muslim civilian
11 population. So it was not an instance of physical abuse, because the
12 alternative to trench-digging was a short gaol term. The attitude of the
13 ABiH is stated to be that all members of the community, Croat, Muslim, or
14 other, must make their respective contributions to defence."
15 Were you aware of those instances of the use of civilians to
16 perform manual labour to dig fortifications, trenches, and things like
17 that, sir?
18 A. As far as my memory serves me and as much as I was aware, there
19 was mobilisation and there was also labour duty. Those of age who were
20 not mobilised as members of the armed forces were bound to comply with
21 their labour duties, and this existed, the latter existed in all the
22 public institutions. I am not aware that so many Croats, and Croats in
23 particular, were being taken to dig trenches.
24 Q. All right. My final set of questions, Dr. Genjac. The Croat
25 population of Travnik, before the events in June of 1993, was
1 approximately 26.000, wasn't it?
2 A. According to the 1991 population census. However, a large number
3 of both Croats and Bosniaks, prior to April 1992, some of them had moved
4 out of Bosnia-Herzegovina, some of them had moved south to the coast, so
5 that the size of the population did not tally any longer with the results
6 of the census.
7 Q. You would agree, though, that about 20.000 people of Croat
8 ethnicity were forced out of their homes during the June 1993 campaign.
9 A. I couldn't agree with that.
10 Q. How many do you say it was, then, sir?
11 A. I think that in an organised manner people were taken out of
12 Travnik. It was prepared in advance. I also know that there were some
13 incidents where some members of the clergy tried to prevent it, but
14 nevertheless, Croats from Travnik were taken to Vlasic in an organised
15 manner. They left behind their kitchen stoves switched on and houses in
16 which there was normal life. And then according to a scenario planned in
17 advance, an incredible number of Croats were taken out to a place --
18 Q. How many? Well, I think the point is made.
19 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, I think we've heard enough evidence on
20 this topic.
21 MR. SAYERS: Yes.
22 Q. There's no question, sir, that Mr. Kordic did not have individual
23 political power in your municipality, did he? You only ever saw him
24 there, I think, once and that was in 1992. He wasn't, in any sense, the
25 leading Croat politician in Travnik, was he?
1 A. What I do know is that Mr. Kordic filled different offices. He
2 was the Vice-President of the Croat Republic of Herceg-Bosna/Croat
3 Community of Herceg-Bosna, Vice-President of the HDZ, and as such, I know
4 that local leaders asked him, invited him and asked -- invited his opinion
5 because they frequently quoted Mr. Kordic at various meetings.
6 Q. With the sole exception of January of 1993, would it be fair to
7 say that, as far as you were aware, Mr. Kordic did not set foot in the
8 municipality of Travnik from June of 1992 until the signature of the
9 Washington Agreement?
10 A. I cannot remember every detail. However, I do know that the
11 municipal mayor told me that Mr. Kordic arrived in front of the municipal
12 hall in Travnik in an APC, but I don't know when that was exactly. There
13 was some incident about the entrance into the municipal hall, municipal
14 building. I did not eyewitness that and I do not know, but I heard about
16 There were some other situations mentioned where Mr. Kordic did
17 come to Travnik, but I was not present there and I did not see that with
18 my own eyes.
19 MR. SAYERS: Thank you very much. No further questions,
20 Mr. President.
21 MR. MIKULICIC: I have no questions, Your Honour.
22 MS. SOMERS: Just a couple of points, Your Honours.
23 Re-examined by Ms. Somers:
24 Q. Dr. Genjac, your comment about the Croat exodus as a scenario
25 planned in advance, what was your understanding of who planned the
1 scenario? How did you view this?
2 A. I think it was all planned by the HVO.
3 Q. The reference made to the HVO -- to acknowledging the existence of
4 the HVO as a military force in Bosnia between Mr. Izetbegovic and
5 Mr. Boban, you began to indicate that that was as to a military force.
6 Are you aware of any document or any agreement made by any leader of the
7 legitimate Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina giving away to the HVO any
8 executive, administrative, legal powers? Are you aware of any such
10 A. I do not know of any decision of any substance of that; quite the
11 contrary. All we know about are the decisions of the Constitutional Court
12 which annulled both the decision of the establishment of the Croat
13 Republic of Herceg-Bosna and all the decisions emerging from that, and
14 naturally the decision on the establishment of the Croat community of
15 Herceg-Bosna and all the decisions deriving from there.
16 Q. And just finally if I can confirm, the description as temporary,
17 that you indicated was given to you on a number of occasions by Dario
18 Kordic, do you have an opinion on whether or not the subsequent evolution
19 of the community of Herceg-Bosna, HZ HB, progressing to a republic of
20 Herceg-Bosna, HR HB, suggested temporariness or permanence?
21 MR. SAYERS: Well, I object to that on the grounds that that calls
22 for just a naked opinion, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE MAY: We allow many questions which would frequently be
1 disallowed. This one we will not allow.
2 MS. SOMERS: No further questions. Thank you.
3 JUDGE MAY: Dr. Genjac, thank you for coming to the Tribunal to
4 give your evidence. It's now concluded and you are free to go.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 JUDGE MAY: Tomorrow morning, then, we will discuss the matters
8 which have been raised and try and deal with all of the administrative
9 matters which are outstanding, with a view to concluding this case.
10 Half past nine.
11 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.57 p.m., to
12 be reconvened on Tuesday, the 5th day of December,
13 2000, at 9.30 a.m.
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the English
14 and French transcripts.