Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 632

1 Monday, 19th April, 1999

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16 (Open Session)

17 (The witness entered court)

18 JUDGE MAY: If you would like to take a

19 seat.

20 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Lopez-Terres.

21 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: Thank you, Your Honour.

22 It might be necessary, in order to facilitate the

23 testimony, that is, the resumption of the testimony for

24 Witness C, to recall, in several words, the sequence of

25 what was being said when we stopped last Friday.

Page 780

1 When we ended on Friday, Witness C told us

2 that he was at the workers' centre in Novi Travnik,

3 together with nine other individuals, four of whom

4 represented the Bosnian community, five representing

5 the Croatian community in Novi Travnik, when together

6 in that centre, he was surprised, at the end of the

7 afternoon, by shooting, and from where he was, he could

8 see that there was troop movement being carried out in

9 the city. My last question that I asked the witness

10 was the following: I wanted to know at what point the

11 witness was able to get out of the workers' centre.

12 I would like first, before we give the floor

13 to the witness, I would simply like to remind Witness C

14 that out of a concern for efficiency and speed, that it

15 would be good if he were to answer the questions asked

16 to him as concisely as possible, without giving too

17 many details, and of course it will be my

18 responsibility, if necessary, to ask him for

19 clarifications that might be necessary.

20 WITNESS: Witness C (Resumed)

21 Examined by Mr. Lopez-Terres:

22 Q. Witness C, you were in the workers' centre.

23 Can you tell us when it was you left that centre?

24 A. We left the workers' centre together sometime

25 around 23.00. After we had previously made telephone

Page 781

1 calls, the gentlemen called the HVO and I called the

2 people at my own building, which was 60 to 70 metres

3 away from the workers' centre, so they would open the

4 door for me. So we left the workers' centre around ten

5 past 11.00 p.m., because in the meantime, in the

6 hallway, we saw Mr. Ragib Zukic, who laid there. He

7 had fainted.

8 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation)

9 Mr. President, Mr. Lopez-Terres. Let me intervene

10 here. You told the witness that you were going to ask

11 questions and that the questions should be answered by

12 the witness concisely. I would like you to apply from

13 the very first question on what you said.

14 You said, "What time did you leave?" He left

15 at such and such a time. If you have another question,

16 then you can move to it in order to control what the

17 testimony is, otherwise, we're going to find ourselves,

18 once again, in a narrative style, and this is also a

19 question of time. Thank you very much.

20 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation) Thank you

21 Your Honour.

22 Q. Witness C, you said that you left around

23 23.10 and that the other people in the Bosnian

24 delegation left the centre at the same time that you

25 did; is that correct?

Page 782

1 A. Yes, we all left the workers' centre

2 together.

3 Q. Among the people accompanying you that day

4 was Mr. Ragib Zukic and Mr. Salih Krnjic, the one last

5 being the president of the executive council of the

6 municipality in Novi Travnik.

7 Could you tell us what happened to

8 Mr. Zukic?

9 A. I mentioned earlier on that we heard some

10 noise around 9.30, but we were in a different room and

11 we didn't know what was going on in the hallway. Only

12 as we were leaving we saw Ragib Zukic, who was lying on

13 the floor. He had fainted. Then we took him to my

14 apartment.

15 Q. Mr. Ragib Zukic had been attacked? Is that

16 what you're saying?

17 A. Yes. Yes. It was probably the attack around

18 9.30. We were told by the gentlemen in the other room,

19 who were sitting there, that Mr. Zlatan Civcija had

20 walked into the room together with two other men.

21 MR. STEIN: We object to the hearsay nature

22 of this declaration.

23 JUDGE MAY: I think hearsay is admissible

24 here. Again, if you could deal with it fairly shortly,

25 Mr. Lopez-Terres.

Page 783

1 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation)

2 Q. Witness C, you were able to notice, see

3 yourself, that Mr. Ragib Zukic had been wounded at that

4 point; is that correct?

5 A. Yes. Yes. I can say, personally, that from

6 the workers' centre to my own building, which is 60

7 metres and then there is eight stories, Ibrahim Mujic

8 and I, and Halil Krnjic too, we really had to carry him

9 from the workers' centre to my apartment. In my

10 apartment we put him on a bed and he was still

11 unconscious. Then we washed his face in the bathroom

12 and it was only then that he came to.

13 Q. Do you know who attacked him?

14 A. I did not see for myself who had been in the

15 hallway, but Mr. Zvonko Grabovac, Blagun Lovrinovic,

16 Stipo Slipac, and Halil Krnjic told us that they walked

17 into the room where they were sitting, and we were only

18 across the hallway in another room, that Mr. Zlatan

19 Civcija walked in, together with two soldiers, and they

20 took Ragib Zukic and Salih Krnjic. Salih Krnjic we did

21 not see, but we did see Ragib Zukic in the hallway 10

22 or 12 metres after the room where we were sitting

23 and -- I mean, apart from that hallway.

24 Q. They were both HVO soldiers?

25 A. Yes. Yes. According to statement by these

Page 784

1 gentlemen who were in the room who saw Zlatan Civcija

2 and these two soldiers.

3 Q. You have just told us that you brought

4 Mr. Ragib Zukic back to your house. Do you know what

5 happened to Mr. Salih Krnjic, the second person who was

6 in that delegation? Do you know what happened to him?

7 A. Only the next day at 10.00 I saw Salih Krnjic

8 in the village of Kasapovici. He told me he had been

9 taken away by Zlatan Civcija and these two soldiers to

10 a cafe called Grand, and that he was locked up in a

11 room down there. He was released on the next day

12 sometime around 10.00, according to his statement.

13 Q. Do you know who the cafe belonged to?

14 A. I had already mentioned this cafe. This is a

15 cafe owned by Mr. Marinko Marelja.

16 Q. Did Mr. Marinko Marelja, in fact, speak? Was

17 he the individual who financed the publication on the

18 book of the partition of Bosnia, of Mr. Anto Valenta?

19 A. Yes. He told me that himself. This is

20 also --

21 Q. You did, in fact, tell that to us when you

22 were testifying.

23 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation) could the

24 witness have a look at the first page of the book. The

25 number of the exhibit is Z91.

Page 785

1 Q. Does the first page match the book that you

2 were talking about, and do you see Mr. Marinko

3 Marelja's name in the document?

4 A. Yes, yes. I see it in the group of two

5 sponsors, Marinko Marelja and Mirko Bobas.

6 Q. Thank you, Witness C. I would like you to

7 tell us now what the consequences of this conflict were

8 for the city of Novi Travnik, that is, the conflict

9 that took place during June of 1992. Could you tell us

10 whether buildings belonging to the Territorial Defence

11 services were taken by the HVO forces during the

12 conflict?

13 A. On that night, on the 19th of June, it was

14 practically three buildings that were attacked where

15 two units were, as well as the headquarters of the

16 Territorial Defence. This was the building where the

17 municipal headquarters of the Territorial Defence was,

18 together with the police station. The other building

19 was the elementary school, Mosa Pijade, in town, where

20 the Territorial Defence unit was. The third building

21 was part of the post office where the military police

22 of the Territorial Defence was staying. So it was

23 these three buildings that were the target of the

24 attacks.

25 During this attack, the buildings of the

Page 786

1 municipal headquarters of the Territorial Defence was

2 hit the most because it caught fire. That is to say,

3 that wing of the building where the headquarters of the

4 Territorial Defence was. The rest was demolished. The

5 elementary school building was hit pretty badly,

6 especially the windows, the glass on the windows. All

7 of that was broken.

8 But as far as I know, there was only very

9 small damage on the post office building, because its

10 location was such that it was probably difficult to

11 engage this target in a meaningful way. So that is why

12 it was only the facade that was affected and some glass

13 was broken.

14 Q. Witness C, during your interrogation or

15 examination with our investigators, you showed us that

16 the centre of Novi Travnik, and you gave us a document

17 which showed it, could you make a comment about it?

18 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation) If the

19 usher would give it to the parties as well as to the

20 witness. Mr. Usher, could we use the ELMO, please?

21 Q. Thank you. Witness C, could you show us the

22 buildings that you've just spoken about, as they appear

23 on this document?

24 A. This is the building of the municipal

25 headquarters of the Territorial Defence, and the right

Page 787

1 wing was the headquarters of the Territorial Defence,

2 and on the left-hand side was the Ministry of the

3 Interior. Nearby, 120 metres away, was the building of

4 the elementary school called Mosa Pijade, and this is

5 where one of the units of the Territorial Defence was.

6 Over here, in the street of Pribilovici, was

7 the entrance to the post office where the military

8 police of the Territorial Defence was located. Over

9 here on the left-hand side is the building of the workers'

10 centre that we discussed a few minutes ago.

11 These three buildings, these three locations,

12 were targets of an attack that night, and that night

13 there was practically no military line that was

14 established. The attack was aimed at these buildings,

15 and then after the units withdrew, the units that were

16 located in these buildings or, rather, when the

17 headquarters was no longer in this building, about

18 10.00 p.m. combat operations stopped. Then after that

19 at the workers' centre we could not hear shooting any

20 longer, and others who were in town also confirmed that

21 around 10.00 p.m. they last heard shooting in town.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation) The

24 document is Exhibit Z1962A.

25 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Could the

Page 788

1 witness show us on the map where the workers' centre

2 is?

3 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation)

4 Q. Witness C, would you show that to us,

5 please?

6 A. This is the building of the workers' centre.

7 That is the L-shaped building that is in the immediate

8 vicinity of the municipality building where the post

9 office is too, nearby. So that is to say that this

10 dark mark is the post office building and the

11 municipality building is next to it and only about 20

12 metres away is the building of the workers' centre and

13 it's an L-shaped building. It's on the street that

14 used to be called Streliste, and then this is the

15 street of Pribilovici that goes from the elementary

16 school where the unit was.

17 Q. Witness C, after the conflict on the 19th of

18 June, 1992, was the city of Novi Travnik cut into two

19 sectors, one that was occupied by the HVO forces and

20 the other occupied by the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

21 A. After this conflict there was no such

22 division of the town itself. As I said, a line was not

23 established that night in this direction where the

24 combat operations were taking place, and the next day,

25 after the negotiations at 12.00, there were no physical

Page 789

1 barriers in town. Civilians could move about normally

2 and other activities, including military activities,

3 could take place normally along roads and in town and

4 along various roads going to and from Novi Travnik. So

5 after that date, in fact, the town was not partitioned,

6 if that's what you asked.

7 Q. What do you know about the HVO forces that

8 participated in the attack on those buildings on the

9 19th of June, 1992?

10 A. In terms of the members of our forces that

11 were in these buildings, that is to say, this unit that

12 was protecting this building and then this unit and

13 this school and the military police and unit at the

14 headquarters, in terms of what they knew and what they

15 saw, units that were wearing HVO and HOS uniforms took

16 part in the attack.

17 Q. As far as you know, were the HVO units and

18 HOS units from Novi Travnik or were there other forces

19 that also participated in the attack?

20 A. From a few minutes after 5.00, when the

21 meeting began on the 19th of June, I was at the

22 workers' centre, so I do not have direct information in

23 terms of what the municipal headquarters received

24 before they were leaving the building. However,

25 according to the reports that I received the next day

Page 790

1 in headquarters and what I was told at the meeting that

2 I attended, the Commander of our municipal TO

3 headquarters did tell us that they received direct

4 information, that it was units from Busovaca and Vitez,

5 from that direction, that took part in the attack.

6 These are HVO units.

7 MR. STEIN: Apparently now we're into double,

8 triple, or quadruple hearsay and I therefore object and

9 ask that the matter be ruled inadmissible.

10 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation) If you

11 allow me, the witness has just said that he heard this

12 from his superior. I don't really have the

13 individual -- what someone said about -- what he

14 learned is necessarily third or fourth party hearsay.

15 The fact that you heard it from somebody else.

16 MR. STEIN: On the face of the record, the

17 Commander heard it from other people. I mean, it's

18 right there.

19 (Trial Chamber deliberates)

20 JUDGE MAY: We'll admit this evidence. To

21 reiterate, the test is not, of course, whether it's

22 hearsay or whether it's double hearsay. The test is

23 whether it's likely to be reliable or not. In this

24 case, we're prepared to admit the evidence. Of course,

25 deciding what weight to give it will be entirely a

Page 791

1 matter for us.

2 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation) Thank

3 you.

4 Q. Witness C, the person who you were referring

5 to who gave you that indication, what was his name?

6 Can you tell us?

7 A. I received the information directly from the

8 commander of the municipal headquarters of the

9 Territorial Defence, Mr. Muvi Klindo (phoen). The

10 meeting was held at a private building because we had

11 to seek another location that day in the village of

12 Kasapovici, and we were talking about a street up here

13 at the end of the 4th of July. And this is the street,

14 4th of July, and that is the village of Kasapovici, and

15 that is where we found temporary location and that is

16 where I heard this information.

17 Q. Thank you, Witness C. After the conflict on

18 the 19th of June, 1992, other buildings in the Novi

19 Travnik city centre, did they find themselves occupied

20 by HVO forces also?

21 A. Before the conflict, HVO headquarters was in

22 the old hotel, as we all called it. It's the hotel

23 called Bratstvo in Novi Travnik. But before that, at

24 the new hotel, too. The Hotel Novi Travnik, that is

25 where a unit was stationed, a HOS unit, and meals were

Page 792

1 prepared jointly until June for soldiers who --

2 Q. What was the name of that building, please?

3 Witness C, could you tell us the name of that building,

4 direct us to what the name of the building was, the

5 building that was occupied by the HVO forces that

6 you've referred to?

7 A. In June, at this Hotel Novi Travnik, or the

8 new hotel, as we called it, that is where an HOS unit

9 was, and then there was a kitchen there where meals

10 were prepared. And in the old hotel was the

11 headquarters. But that hotel's name was actually

12 Bratstvo. That was before the conflict.

13 Q. Thank you. Mr. Usher, you can take your

14 seat, please.

15 Witness C, after the fighting in June, 1992,

16 that you've just spoken to us about, there was another

17 set of fighting in October of 1992 in Novi Travnik

18 also. Could you tell us how many days the second

19 conflict lasted?

20 A. The second conflict in Novi Travnik, with

21 intensive combat activity, went on from the 19th of

22 October until -- around 15.00 or perhaps five minutes

23 before that, until the 26th of October, when there was

24 no longer any combat action except for an occasional

25 incident or two on the lines for the next day or two.

Page 793

1 But in fact the conflict had stopped on the 26th of

2 October, 1992.

3 Q. So this conflict which lasted for -- it

4 lasted for a week. Who set it off?

5 A. The conflict started on the 19th of October,

6 around 15.00, and it was started off by the HVO units,

7 as they attacked the army positions.

8 At that time, there was one unit in the fire

9 brigade building, and because of the incident that had

10 occurred a day before that, practically along this

11 entire line where the first conflict had ended, it was

12 in that direction that they started the attack, these

13 HVO units, in the direction of the street of Kalinska

14 (phoen), or the 4th of July, as it is called. So that

15 is when the attack began in town itself, along this

16 direction.

17 Q. During that one-week conflict, did the HVO

18 take over new territory in the city?

19 A. Well, the conflict lasted -- the lines were

20 not changed significantly. Those that were in fact in

21 place on the 19th of October, practically in town,

22 there was hardly any change, not even by one metre,

23 except that we could say that the HVO units now had a

24 line in the direction of Streliste, because in the

25 meantime, from July until October, this facility was

Page 794

1 used by them, too, and this was used as the last line

2 where the HVO units were, that is to say, where they

3 were in the October conflict and where they had set up

4 their positions.

5 Q. Could you make a comment about what you said

6 about the document that you gave to the investigators

7 during your examination, specifying the HVO force

8 positions and those positions of the army of

9 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

10 The document is Exhibit C196/2B, and I'll ask

11 the usher to distribute it.

12 JUDGE MAY: We've got it already.

13 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation)

14 Q. Very well. Since everybody has the document,

15 could you tell us, Witness C, what the different

16 parties' positions were at the time of that second

17 conflict in October, 1992?

18 A. In the town itself, fighting took place along

19 this line from the village of Pribilovici, then up and

20 down this hill where the firing range is, then a few

21 houses below it. Then the line crossed this Borisa

22 Kidrica's Street here two buildings above the

23 elementary school, then went down towards the workers'

24 centre. The workers' centre was one of the military

25 strongholds. Then the old high-rise residential

Page 795

1 building I noted down here, number 1; then the hotel

2 which were the headquarters of the HVO, that is the old

3 Bratstvo Hotel; and then the line went down towards the

4 hill of Oseliste, toward the TV transmitter which is in

5 the immediate vicinity of the fire brigade centre,

6 perhaps three or four hundred metres as the crow

7 flies.

8 So this was the line of conflict and the line

9 of separation which persisted, I think, throughout the

10 second conflict between the 19th and 26th of October.

11 This is as far as the town is concerned, but there was

12 fighting also in other parts of the municipality.

13 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Thank you.

14 Mr. Lopez-Terres, might I know what a separation line

15 means, when he says that? The separation line of

16 what? Does that mean that on each side there were

17 opposing forces? And where are they on the drawing, if

18 we might know, because we're being told about a

19 separation line and we don't really quite know what

20 that means.

21 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation)

22 Q. Could you indicate more specifically to us,

23 please?

24 A. Well, the separation line is -- when I say

25 that, in this direction where the HVO forces, and this

Page 796

1 is -- this marks the positions of HVO units. And at a

2 very small distance from that was the line held by the

3 forces of the BH army, because as of June, they began

4 to operate under the name of the units of the army of

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

6 So for comparison's sake, the line of the BH

7 army units followed -- went from the fire brigade

8 centre, then in front of this high-rise residential

9 building marked as "2". We used to call it Koriceva

10 Soliter. And then up here by Kresa, another high-rise

11 building, and down here is a row of houses to the

12 pensioners' home, which is over here, and then the line

13 of the army units went towards Isakovic hill, in this

14 direction. The distance was perhaps 50 to 60 metres,

15 the shortest one, and the biggest distance was somewhat

16 longer. I mean between the two lines, between the two

17 forces.

18 Q. During the week that we're speaking about,

19 that's the 19th to the 26th of October, did the HVO

20 forces begin to destroy any property belonging to

21 members of the Bosnian Croat community in Novi Travnik?

22 A. Apart from the buildings which were destroyed

23 or damaged due to the fighting along the separation

24 line between the two forces, which I showed a moment

25 ago, a number of buildings belonging to Bosniak Muslims

Page 797

1 were destroyed. Those were in the part of the town

2 which we call Bare. This is the lower part. You can't

3 even see all the buildings. They are not here on the

4 drawing. But these were Ratanjska. It is right in

5 front of this INA petrol station.

6 Here is a small suburb of Novi Travnik,

7 Ratanjska. There were four or five houses there which

8 were set on fire, and then it proceeded to various

9 business outlets. Here there was a big restaurant,

10 Dallas, owned by Mr. Delic, and then a pizzeria, Duga,

11 which was owned by --

12 Q. Can you show us that on the map, please?

13 A. These buildings which were demolished were in

14 Ratanjska. It is here at the entry to Travnik. Then

15 several houses around the INA petrol station, and then

16 here the Dallas Restaurant, which was set on fire and

17 completely destroyed, owned by Mr. Delic. Here was a

18 pizzeria called Duga, which was also set alight, and

19 its owner, Mr. Krnjic, was killed next to it. Then

20 here were also several business outlets such as

21 Videotech or some shops that were demolished but not

22 torched because they were in large residential

23 buildings. There was the Videotech Lejla was

24 demolished, particularly. Here in the town itself, on

25 the Marshal Tito Street, roughly the level of the post

Page 798

1 office, about here, was a kebab restaurant owned by

2 Karalic, and then a house owned by Mr. Kopcic was set

3 on fire, and this is as for the suburb or, rather, this

4 part from the town.

5 This was the part of the town where most of

6 the houses or business outlets of Muslims were

7 demolished or burned down.

8 Q. As regards these properties, was there any

9 strategic or military interest of any type?

10 A. The nearest building that was destroyed was

11 behind the first -- behind the front line of the HVO,

12 some two or three hundred metres. All the other

13 buildings are deep in the rear, that is, some seven or

14 eight hundred metres from the front line. These

15 buildings at the entrance into Novi Travnik must have

16 been about a kilometre away from the line occupied by

17 the HVO units, so these were simply either residential

18 units or were some restaurants or shops.

19 Q. They were civilian properties, then; is that

20 what you're saying? As you did just a while ago in

21 respect of the first attack on the HVO forces who

22 participated in those attacks in the week of October,

23 1992, could you comment about that, too?

24 A. In contrast with the first attack, which to

25 us in the municipal Territorial Defence headquarters

Page 799

1 was sudden and we could not have predicted it, the

2 October attack on the HVO units, judging by the manner

3 in which it was prepared, the preparations and all the

4 other elements, we could see on a regular basis --

5 there was an incident on the day before, that is, on

6 the 18th of October, that is when the incident started,

7 we could foresee that there would be an HVO attack on

8 the Armija units and therefore we behaved more

9 cautiously and we tried to gather some facts.

10 We knew that the HVO forces were engaged from

11 Novi Travnik on the first day, on the 19th of October,

12 and from Vitez on the 19th of October, and on the basis

13 of information we received at the time from the

14 regional headquarters of the Territorial Defence in

15 Zenica, that on the 20th of October, in the direction

16 of Novi Travnik, units from Busovaca passed that way.

17 A day or two later, we learned, rather we

18 received the information from the regional TO

19 headquarters in Zenica that the attack was also

20 participated by Kiseljak units, that is, the HVO units

21 from Kiseljak.

22 I'm referring to the information, the

23 official information we received from our command at

24 the time, from our superiors at the time.

25 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation) Thank

Page 800

1 you. Perhaps one point in respect of one of the

2 previous questions that I asked the witness. I asked

3 the witness whether the different property destroyed

4 was property belonging to civilians only. I understood

5 that he had said "Yes," but I don't see that in the

6 transcript.

7 JUDGE MAY: The point is noted.

8 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation)

9 Q. Witness C, how did the second conflict in

10 October come to its end?

11 A. Officially or, rather, from the superior

12 command we received the order sometime on the 25th, in

13 the evening hours of the 25th, that the conflict

14 between the Armija of the BH army and HVO units had to

15 be put to an end. Then the Commander of the municipal

16 headquarters of the armed forces of Novi Travnik,

17 Mr. Refik Lendo, issued an order to terminate all

18 fighting since that night there was again major

19 combat.

20 This order was repeated in the morning,

21 around 9.00 on the 26th of October, and by noon, with

22 the exception of incidents at some other parts of the

23 land, but at noon the fighting between the units which

24 took part in the conflict stopped.

25 Q. Were the negotiations between the

Page 801

1 representatives of the Bosnian and Croatian

2 representatives?

3 A. I'm not aware if there were any negotiations

4 before that or if those were the orders from commands

5 for either of the components. I mentioned that we

6 received --

7 Q. Of subsequent negotiations, that is,

8 subsequent to the conflict. Could you speak to us

9 about those negotiations?

10 A. The negotiations or, rather, talks with an

11 analysis of causes of the second conflict between the

12 HVO units and the BH army in Novi Travnik took place

13 several days later, after the complete termination of

14 hostilities and after the joint commissions visited the

15 grounds along the separation line both in the town and

16 outside it, and assured themselves that the trenches

17 were filled in, that the units were not there, that the

18 mines had been removed if there were any mines placed.

19 Normally, after that the commission finished

20 their work, there were talks about the causes of the

21 conflict in Novi Travnik, and these talks took place --

22 according to my notes, they took place on the 5th of

23 November, 1992 in the Novi Travnik Hotel.

24 Q. Were you a participant in those

25 negotiations?

Page 802

1 A. Yes. At the meeting of the municipal

2 headquarters the evening before, I was designated,

3 together with the Commander, Mevludin Berberovic, to

4 represent the municipal headquarters in the talks on

5 the causes of the conflict in Novi Travnik, which was

6 held in Hotel Novi Travnik. I went to Novi Travnik

7 Hotel. I and Mr. Berberovic went on foot from the

8 secondary school building, which is here. We walked

9 through the town to the building of the Novi Travnik

10 Hotel.

11 The Commander Refik Lendo took a vehicle

12 which belonged to Mr. Arif Pasalic, who drove to the

13 headquarters building and picked him up, and they

14 travelled together to the Hotel Novi Travnik where the

15 talks were held.

16 Q. Is either one or both of the negotiations --

17 I'm sorry, in respect of the two -- one, or the other,

18 or both of the accused, were they involved in the

19 negotiations as well?

20 A. In these negotiations, as far as I can

21 remember, only Mr. Kordic participated, but I did not

22 take it down if Mr. Cerkez took part in these

23 negotiations.

24 Q. Do you remember as what Mr. Dario Kordic was

25 a participant in the negotiations, what his status

Page 803

1 was?

2 A. I do not remember the positions of offices

3 held by individual participants at the meeting, because

4 there were several representatives who did not come

5 from the territory of Novi Travnik. They came from a

6 wider area of Bosnia and Herzegovina. I already

7 mentioned one of them. That was Asif Pasalic. I know

8 there was Mr. Srecko Vucina. Bozo Rajic was also

9 there, and he even chaired the meeting that took place

10 in the Novi Travnik Hotel.

11 Q. Was that the first time that you met

12 Mr. Dario Kordic?

13 A. Yes. I had not met him before that, directly

14 or personally, or after that.

15 Q. So that was the only time that you met him.

16 What did the negotiations end with?

17 A. To be quite frank, these negotiations did not

18 end up in any specific conclusions. Nothing particular

19 was concluded by that meeting, nor were any duties or

20 obligations laid down. Each was a kind of a

21 conversation. There were talks trying to analyse the

22 causes of the conflict, and each one of those present

23 voiced his opinion or his perception of this.

24 After a number of interventions by

25 Mr. Marinko Marelja, who also attended this meeting,

Page 804

1 which was far from convincing, and the abusive language

2 he used when he addressed Mr. Refik Lendo or myself,

3 the meeting ended without any specific result. We

4 spent another hour in that hotel. We had lunch and

5 then we parted company.

6 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Lopez-Terres, when you come

7 to a convenient moment, we'll adjourn. Is that a

8 convenient moment for you?

9 MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation) Yes.

10 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll adjourn until

11 tomorrow morning.

12 Witness C, could you be back, please, at 9.45

13 tomorrow morning, when I hope we will finish your

14 examination?

15 THE WITNESS: I will, Your Honours. I will

16 be here whenever you tell me to be.

17 JUDGE MAY: Thank you very much. If you'd

18 like to go now.

19 (The witness withdrew)

20 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, do you have a matter

21 you want us to consider?

22 MR. NICE: Yes. It won't take very long.

23 Before I come to that, it might assist, in relation to

24 calling the next witness, if we know, A, if the Defence

25 are going to make any application to adjourn

Page 805

1 cross-examination of this witness, and if not, how long

2 their cross-examination is likely to take.

3 JUDGE MAY: I had not anticipated the former

4 application. Can we know how long it will take?

5 MR. STEIN: We're prepared to go forward, but

6 we're not prepared to tell you how long because we just

7 don't know.

8 JUDGE MAY: Can the witness --

9 MR. NICE: I think I'll have the second

10 witness available as from the afternoon, cancellable if

11 it's clear towards the end of the morning that he may

12 not be required.

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes, or to be more optimistic, be

14 available on the phone before then if need be.

15 MR. NICE: Certainly. Yes.

16 What I seek is either an order or, in any

17 event, approval, as it relates to Rule 90(E), which

18 effectively permits investigators to be present without

19 prejudice to the Rule that, in general, people who may

20 become witnesses shouldn't attend any parts of the

21 proceedings. It's a combination of Rule 90(D) and

22 90(E).

23 I would seek not to have just one

24 investigator as the investigator in charge of the case

25 but two, because this is a very large case and there

Page 806

1 are two investigators in charge of it at the moment. I

2 will be assisted by their being able to be present in

3 Court, and by "in Court," I mean not just outside but

4 in Court during closed sessions, where there are closed

5 sessions, notwithstanding the possibility that they may

6 have to be called in due course. It's not necessarily

7 expected that they will have to be called, but any

8 investigator, in a case like this, is always a possible

9 candidate for a witness and, I think, they've both been

10 listed.

11 The position is that it can be extremely

12 helpful to have an investigator present in Court from

13 time to time. It's particularly helpful for me when

14 although I have a number of other team members, they're

15 not by any means going to be here all the time because

16 there's a great deal of other work to be done on a

17 continuing basis.

18 Therefore, I would seek the court's general

19 approval to my having these two named investigators in

20 Court if and when I need them to be here, not

21 withstanding the possibility that I may need to call

22 them later.

23 JUDGE MAY: Any objection?

24 MR. STEIN: Your Honour, I object only if the

25 witnesses are to be called later. The possibility of

Page 807

1 them styling their testimony is extant.

2 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, do you want to add

3 anything?

4 MR. KOVACIC: No, Your Honour. I'm not

5 sure. I would like to investigate that a little bit

6 more, I mean, the Rules and practice, and then to say

7 what I mean.

8 JUDGE MAY: I can tell you what Rules are.

9 The Rules permit this to occur, in the sense that

10 Rule 90(E) permits an investigator not to be precluded

11 from being called as a witness on the ground that he or

12 she has been present in the courtroom during the

13 proceedings. I can tell you that the practice, as far

14 as I know, is to allow the investigator to be present.

15 It applies to both sides, of course. It

16 doesn't only apply to one side. It applies to the

17 investigators for both sides.

18 Certainly, as far as I know, it has been the

19 practice, in any case that I've been involved in, that

20 the investigator has been allowed in to assist the

21 party and that hasn't been a bar to the investigator

22 giving evidence.

23 MR. STEIN: May we at least know who they

24 are?

25 MR. NICE: Terry Cameron and Sue Ellen Taylor

Page 808

1 are their names.

2 JUDGE MAY: We shall permit it. 9.45

3 tomorrow.

4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

5 at 4.40 p.m., to be reconvened on

6 Tuesday, the 20th day of April, 1999

7 at 9:45 a.m.

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