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  1. 1 Thursday, 22 April, 1999

    2 (Open session)

    3 (The accused entered court)

    4 (The witness entered court)

    5 --- Upon commencing at 9.47 a.m.

    6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.

    7 Case number IT-95-14/2-T, the Prosecutor versus Dario

    8 Kordic and Mario Cerkez.

    9 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Naumovski.

    10 MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) Good

    11 morning, Your Honours. Good morning, everybody.

    12 If I may, I should like to ask for a

    13 correction. I went through yesterday's transcript, and

    14 I noticed that towards the end, on page 120, page 120,

    15 in line 22, it says, wrongly, that Mr. Mario Cerkez was

    16 on the videotape that was shown us yesterday. This was

    17 obviously an error, and it should read "Mr. Dario

    18 Kordic". That is the only correction that I have.

    19 JUDGE MAY: Very well. That will be noted.

    20 MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) Thank you.


    22 (Witness answers through interpreter)

    23 Cross-examined by Mr. Naumovski:

    24 Q. Mr. Sahinovic, shall we go on with our

    25 conversation with our questions yesterday. You said

  2. 1 yesterday that you had never heard about Mr. Dario

    2 Kordic before he addressed you on the 24th February,

    3 '92.

    4 Busovaca is not far from Novi Travnik, about

    5 30 kilometres or something, I believe. It's close,

    6 it's not far. The whole Lasva Valley is rather small,

    7 isn't it?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. And although this whole area is very small,

    10 you never heard about Mr. Kordic before that date, that

    11 is, 24 February, 1992?

    12 A. No.

    13 Q. Thank you. Let us move on to something

    14 else.

    15 The shipment document, that is the document

    16 that was adduced by the Prosecution as Exhibit Number

    17 78A and B. You did say something yesterday about that,

    18 but could you tell us, had you been going to the --

    19 were you going to the factory, to the plant, during

    20 that period? On the 22nd of April, which is indicated

    21 on the document, were you at the factory then?

    22 A. No.

    23 Q. Mr. Sahinovic, as the president of the union,

    24 you knew about everything that was going on there,

    25 including those armaments shipments?

  3. 1 A. Mostly through the Workers' Council and the

    2 manager and his associates.

    3 Q. We were also informed in that way that on the

    4 22nd of April, '92, there were also negotiations that

    5 took place between the SDA and HDZ precisely about

    6 these weapons, or whatever they were called, indicated

    7 in the document?

    8 A. No.

    9 Q. You have no knowledge about that?

    10 A. No.

    11 Q. In this receipt that was shown us yesterday,

    12 you said that a stamp was of the Secretariat for

    13 National Defence of the municipality of Busovaca; is

    14 that correct?

    15 A. From the text, when I read the seal, yes, I

    16 recognised it as the one of the Territorial Defence of

    17 Busovaca.

    18 Q. You also recognised and there is an indicated

    19 signature of Mr. Dario Kordic on that receipt?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. It is, therefore, evident that that person

    22 who put the stamp wanted it to be known that he had

    23 taken over what was indicated in that receipt?

    24 A. It did not.

    25 Q. But it transpires from this document that the

  4. 1 person who signed it and who put the stamp there, that

    2 he had taken over?

    3 A. I don't know. I do not know if that is the

    4 signature of Mr. Dario Kordic.

    5 Q. But we do agree that his name is on that

    6 receipt, who took over what it says there?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Tell us, please, as the union president, you

    9 say that you're acquainted with the armaments shipments

    10 and so forth. I should now like to ask you about some

    11 sizeable amounts of quantities of armaments and

    12 materiel, not only weapons, which left Bratstvo on the

    13 basis of an agreement between the SDA and the HDZ.

    14 Within that context, I should like to ask

    15 you --

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. You do know?

    18 A. I know, but I do not know what the quantities

    19 were, and the Territorial Defence headquarters of

    20 Travnik took over a certain quantity. Likewise, the

    21 headquarters in Vitez and in Novi Travnik. But what

    22 quantities were they, I would not be able to say.

    23 Q. That was what I was about to ask you. So we

    24 agree that those shipments of weapons and materiel

    25 which were at Bratstvo were distributed between one and

  5. 1 the other party to the headquarters of the Territorial

    2 Defence?

    3 A. They were allotted certain quantities of

    4 them.

    5 Q. I should like to ask you specifically, do you

    6 know Mr. Osman Cengic, according to these agreements

    7 that I mentioned between the HDZ and the SDA about the

    8 distribution of the weapons, took over a large quantity

    9 of these weapons and materiel for Sarajevo so that this

    10 whole convoy went through the Lasva Valley to Visoko,

    11 escorted by the civilian police from Novi Travnik?

    12 A. I don't know.

    13 Q. You know nothing about that?

    14 A. No, I don't.

    15 Q. A very large quantity. They are talking

    16 about 21 trucks. You know nothing about that?

    17 A. No, I don't.

    18 Q. You know nothing about it?

    19 A. No, nothing.

    20 Q. Tell us, please, these weapons which were

    21 distributed on the basis of the agreement, it made part

    22 of the final balance about the distribution of weapons,

    23 about the division of weapons between the SDA and the

    24 HDZ; do you know anything about that?

    25 A. No.

  6. 1 Q. You have no information?

    2 A. No.

    3 Q. When you spoke about events after November,

    4 1992, you said there were victims in Novi Travnik after

    5 that month; after, that is, 11 November, 1992?

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. Do you agree with me that those casualties --

    8 those victims of crimes in Novi Travnik, there were

    9 also Croats after November, '92?

    10 A. I don't know. I'm not aware of that.

    11 Q. Mr. Sahinovic, you made your statement, and,

    12 it says here, on the 5th of March and 8th of March,

    13 1999?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. And the interpreter was Emina Kaknjo?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) Would the

    18 usher please show the statement to the witness? We

    19 also have copies for the Court.

    20 THE REGISTRAR: The exhibit is marked D3/1.

    21 MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) I wish to

    22 draw your attention to item 15 of the statement. And

    23 15 on the fifth page, Mr. Sahinovic, the first

    24 sentence.

    25 Q. So you're referring to what happened as of

  7. 1 November, '92. You said that the victims of those

    2 crimes included also some Croats. The second sentence

    3 from the top -- rather the first one in the first

    4 line. Are you following me?

    5 A. (No audible response)

    6 Q. Mr. Sahinovic, did you find that sentence to

    7 which I wish to draw your attention in the first line

    8 on that page? On the fifth one, it begins with the

    9 word "maju", which means "among", and relates to the

    10 period after November, 1992?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Do you agree that that is what you stated,

    13 that during the events after November, '92, there were

    14 also some Croats?

    15 A. Yes, but this is a period which refers to the

    16 arrival of Herzegovinians in Novi Travnik.

    17 Q. Yes, but the paragraph begins with the words

    18 "From November, '92"?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. So you do agree that -- you agree, in other

    21 words, that Croats were also victims of crimes which

    22 happened thereafter?

    23 A. No. I said, and I was very clear, it was

    24 after Herzegovinians arrived in Novi Travnik.

    25 Q. I'm not quite sure that -- I also meant Croat

  8. 1 victims. Do we agree about Croat victims? Do we agree

    2 about that?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. A while ago -- no, I mean when we discussed

    5 that receipt, I think I was also warned that there was

    6 an error in the transcript. They said that it was the

    7 headquarters of the Territorial Defence of Busovaca,

    8 and it should be Secretariat for National Defence of

    9 Busovaca. You remember that stamp that we discussed a

    10 little while ago? So will you please correct that? It

    11 was the seal of the Secretariat for National Defence of

    12 the municipality of Busovaca.

    13 Q. Mr. Sahinovic, I have to ask you a few things

    14 which I believe are also important. As a soldier, that

    15 action, that fighting that went on in the village of

    16 Lazine in the summer of '93, it was a military

    17 operation, wasn't it?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Likewise, the fighting that went on at

    20 Isakovici in February '93, it was also a military

    21 operation?

    22 A. Yes, but civilians, and the Isakovici was a

    23 place which was inhabited by civilians, Bosniaks.

    24 Q. I'm asking you if it was a military

    25 operation. Do you agree with me?

  9. 1 A. Yes, but the defence line went through the

    2 village of Isakovici.

    3 Q. That was what I wanted to ask you. It was a

    4 military operation. Thank you.

    5 Tell us, please, you are saying, if I

    6 understood you properly, that as of November '92, you

    7 became the head of the security service of the 308th

    8 Brigade of the B and H army?

    9 A. No, municipal headquarters of the Territorial

    10 Defence. I was appointed deputy commander for security

    11 matters.

    12 Q. Yes, I'm sorry, my mistake.

    13 A. The brigade did not exist yet, and when the

    14 brigade was formed, then another man was appointed

    15 deputy commander for security matters.

    16 Q. I understand. I'm asking about when you were

    17 invited there, you were invited to report to that duty

    18 from the office you occupied before?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. And you were told that you would be involved

    21 in counterintelligence?

    22 A. No, that I would be deputy commander of Refik

    23 Lendo for security matters.

    24 Q. You were not told what your responsibilities

    25 would be?

  10. 1 A. I do not know whether you understand what

    2 deputy assistant commander for security in the

    3 municipality headquarters in the headquarters of the

    4 Territorial Defence in the municipality of Busovaca

    5 means.

    6 Q. I am asking you if you were told that you

    7 would be involved in counterintelligence against the

    8 enemy.

    9 A. Well, the service, as such, encompasses such

    10 duties.

    11 Q. Tell us, please, who were enemies at the

    12 time?

    13 A. At that time, we were oriented towards the

    14 Chetniks only; however, when the Croatian Defence

    15 Council attacked Novi Travnik, we also came to think

    16 that they were our enemies too.

    17 Q. So we agree that in November '92, the enemy,

    18 to your mind, were both Chetniks and the Croats of the

    19 HVO?

    20 A. After those victims?

    21 Q. Yes. We are talking about November of '92?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Tell us, please, when we say Chetniks, just

    24 for the sake of clarification, you mean Serb forces, in

    25 the broad sense?

  11. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. In those duties you discharged, you knew what

    3 was happening throughout that area which was under you,

    4 and later on, of the 308th Brigade?

    5 A. When the 308th Mountain Brigade was

    6 appointed, the deputy commander was then responsible

    7 for the security, and I was a commander of the

    8 municipal headquarters, so that my zone of

    9 responsibility extended in the direction of Novi

    10 Travnik to Rostovo, and I was involved with the

    11 separation of crime, since this was the only way which

    12 linked up Central Bosnia.

    13 Q. Yes, but tell us, please, since this is your

    14 area, Sebesici, Rostovo, that part, I mean -- and you

    15 say that is your part?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. So could you please tell us, if you know, who

    18 was it that in January manned the checkpoint at Ravno

    19 Rostovo?

    20 A. At Ravno Rostovo? Will you please repeat?

    21 Q. Early '91 (sic), January, February.

    22 A. No, no, I can't -- I don't remember, really,

    23 whether it was the civilian police.

    24 Q. I meant the forces: Whose forces?

    25 A. At Rostovo, if you want me to be very

  12. 1 specific, we had a camp, the 308th Mountain Brigade was

    2 preparing their units for Bugojno, where we were

    3 manning the line towards Chetniks.

    4 Q. No, but was this checkpoint manned by the

    5 forces of the 308th Mounted Brigade?

    6 A. No.

    7 Q. That's what I'm asking you: Who was it that

    8 manned that checkpoint?

    9 I'm sorry, I'm being warned about an error.

    10 We are talking about this checkpoint at Ravno Rostovo,

    11 I think I was asking you about '93, and it says here

    12 January, February, '91. So will you please rectify

    13 this: We are talking about January, February, of '93.

    14 A. As far as I can remember, since this was the

    15 zone of Bugojno, I think it was the civilian police at

    16 the time, civilian police from Bugojno, and the 308th

    17 Brigade, the Territorial Defence, never had a

    18 checkpoint there.

    19 Q. Thank you. Tell us, please, in the

    20 municipality of Novi Travnik, according to the

    21 information that we have, there were also Mujahedin

    22 units active there, and as the head -- or rather as the

    23 man who was responsible for those things that you said,

    24 you had information about the Mujahedin in that area?

    25 A. No.

  13. 1 Q. Are you telling the Court that about the

    2 Mujahedin in the municipality of Novi Travnik, you know

    3 nothing?

    4 A. I don't. Nor do I have any information about

    5 that.

    6 Q. But as the man who was responsible for

    7 counterintelligence there?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. Thank you. What I then need to ask you, in

    10 that same -- at that same checkpoint at Ravno Rostovo,

    11 during that period of time that we are talking about,

    12 that is, early 1993, Mujahedin looted an HVO convoy;

    13 the Mujahedin, who were manning that checkpoint.

    14 A. I do not know about that.

    15 Q. You know nothing about that?

    16 A. No, I don't.

    17 Q. Do you have information about some other

    18 convoys who went that way?

    19 A. I do about convoys which went through Opara.

    20 Q. Do you know about a convoy which went to

    21 Usvara or rather Trenica and Tuzla, a joint convoy?

    22 A. Yes, I do. I escorted that convoy to the

    23 Intrain zone.

    24 Q. Were there any problems regarding that

    25 convoy?

  14. 1 A. To the man who was heading that convoy, I

    2 personally advised not to go through Novi Travnik,

    3 controlled by the HVO, for the sake of their safety.

    4 However, the man who was leading that convoy --

    5 Q. Excuse me, when I meant "problems," I did not

    6 mean the HVO, but the part that was controlled by you,

    7 or rather by the army of the BHA.

    8 A. That convoy spent the night in Pavlovica,

    9 mostly in inhabited areas among the Muslims. And I can

    10 affirm that the Muslims welcomed over them lunch and

    11 dinner, what they had, and there were no problems at

    12 all.

    13 Q. There were no incidents, there was no looting

    14 in the area which was under your control?

    15 A. Not of that convoy, no.

    16 Q. No?

    17 A. No.

    18 Q. Tell us, please, since we're talking about

    19 Opara, if I understood you properly, you were born

    20 somewhere around Opara, weren't you?

    21 A. Yes, the neighbourhood community of Zagrlje,

    22 but that is that area.

    23 Q. In Opara there is an elementary school, isn't

    24 there?

    25 A. Yes.

  15. 1 Q. In Opara, on the grounds of the elementary

    2 school, in summer of 1993, prisoners were kept; it

    3 served as a camp?

    4 A. No.

    5 Q. Are you telling the Court that in that

    6 school, that school did not house a detention camp?

    7 A. The detention camp did not exist in Opara,

    8 and I do affirm that positively.

    9 Q. No, in the school.

    10 A. In the school, there was only a provisional

    11 detention unit for soldiers of the army of Bosnia and

    12 Herzegovina detained for crimes and some other offences

    13 and who were then taken into custody there.

    14 Q. In the building of the elementary school?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. But I'm talking about 25 Croats who were

    17 detained in Opara. I do not mean only the soldiers of

    18 the BH army. Were those people detained in the

    19 elementary school, the Croats?

    20 A. All those who happened to --

    21 Q. No, I'm asking you, were the Croats detained

    22 there?

    23 A. In Opara, as far as I can remember, they were

    24 from Trenica. I cannot remember how many, but they

    25 must have been in that hall in the gym.

  16. 1 Q. I'm talking about 25 people. So there were

    2 also Croats detained in the elementary school in Opara?

    3 A. In the same area where the members of the BH

    4 army were detained, and that room is --

    5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Naumovski, this is becoming

    6 unclear and confused. Now, are you putting to the

    7 witness that 25 Croats were detained in Opara? Is that

    8 the question?

    9 MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) Your

    10 Honours, I think the witness has just answered that

    11 question. That was indeed my question.

    12 JUDGE MAY: No, I'm asking you what your

    13 question was. It's not at all clear to those

    14 listening.

    15 Now, let me ask the witness this: What is

    16 suggested is that there were 25 Croats detained in

    17 Opara. Is that right, or not?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 JUDGE MAY: And whereabouts were they

    20 detained?

    21 A. In the gym, in the school building.

    22 JUDGE MAY: And when was it that they were

    23 detained, and for how long?

    24 A. During the conflict between the BH army and

    25 the HVO. I cannot tell you the exact date, but in view

  17. 1 of the fact that the local people who stayed behind in

    2 Trenica, which is some way from Opara -- actually the

    3 distance is about ten kilometres -- for security

    4 reasons, these people were transferred to Opara.

    5 MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) Thank you,

    6 Your Honours.

    7 Q. Mr. Sahinovic, were you personally in command

    8 of the military police that was in Opara and connected

    9 to the school that we are referring to?

    10 A. No.

    11 Q. Did you personally interrogate the detainees,

    12 the Croats who were detained there?

    13 A. Not the ones in Trenica.

    14 Q. However, the Croatian soldiers who were held

    15 prisoner in Opara?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. Was it part of your duty to be in charge of

    18 this facility, whatever you like to call it, the

    19 school, during the time when people were detained

    20 there?

    21 A. No. There was a senior officer, as this was

    22 treated as a barracks, so the senior officer in the

    23 hierarchy was always in charge. He was the person

    24 responsible for the facility.

    25 Q. Yes, I understand. But when you came, in

  18. 1 view of your position, you were superior to that local

    2 commander?

    3 A. No.

    4 Q. Did you have a command responsibility?

    5 A. No.

    6 Q. Thank you. Tell us, please, perhaps just two

    7 or three questions about Novi Travnik. Were you in the

    8 town of Novi Travnik in the summer of 1993, in August,

    9 1993? August, 1993, were you in the town? That is, in

    10 the part under the control of the army of

    11 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    12 A. I cannot remember exactly now, since I was

    13 mostly engaged in the area of Opara, as I have already

    14 said. But as necessary, I was in town too.

    15 Q. I should like to ask you a few questions, but

    16 if you weren't there, there is no point in tiring Their

    17 Honours. That is why I'm asking you this question:

    18 Were you in the town of Novi Travnik in August 1993?

    19 A. I'm afraid I cannot tell you with precision

    20 at this point in time.

    21 Q. Perhaps, through the questions I will put to

    22 you, that will help to refresh your memory.

    23 A. Perhaps.

    24 Q. The part of the town that was held by the HVO

    25 was left without water in August 1993 because the water

  19. 1 supply was cut off. That is what I wanted to ask you.

    2 Do you know that? Are you aware of that?

    3 A. I'm not aware about the water, but as far as

    4 I know, the water coming from Opara, going through the

    5 supply system, passes through the lower part of the

    6 city, which was under the control of the HVO.

    7 Q. Yes, but I was thinking of the water supply

    8 system coming through the other part of the city. Do

    9 you know anything about that?

    10 A. The water supply comes from Opara. The water

    11 supply for the town of Novi Travnik comes from Opara.

    12 Q. But my question is about the water supply

    13 system passing through the part of the town controlled

    14 by the BH army and running towards the HVO part of the

    15 town. Do you know that that water supply system was

    16 closed in '93?

    17 A. May I explain to Their Honours, the question

    18 is wrong. The supply system goes from Opara, passes

    19 through the HVO-controlled part of the city, and then

    20 reaches the part of the town that was under the control

    21 of the BH army, and not vice versa.

    22 Q. But you're talking only about one water

    23 supply system?

    24 A. That is the main water supply system for Novi

    25 Travnik.

  20. 1 Q. So are you saying there's no water supply

    2 system coming from the part under the BH army control

    3 going towards the HVO-controlled part of the town?

    4 That's what I'm talking about.

    5 A. As far as I know, the other water supply

    6 system that exists is used exclusively for the Bratstvo

    7 factory, from the moment the water supply started

    8 running to Novi Travnik from Opara.

    9 Q. Yes, but again, we do not seem to understand

    10 one another. So there's one part of the water supply

    11 going from the part of the town controlled by the BH

    12 army into the HVO part controlled area of town?

    13 A. No, there was no such water supply system.

    14 Q. Tell us, Mr. Sahinovic, the Croatian Defence

    15 Council and the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, they

    16 were two components of the unified armed forces of the

    17 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, were they not?

    18 A. I don't know which period you are referring

    19 to, but I do know that until 1992, when I placed myself

    20 at the disposal of the Territorial Defence, there was a

    21 joint command which was composed of both Croats and

    22 Muslims.

    23 Q. But those were the beginnings, this was just

    24 after the Serbs attacked in April '92, that's the

    25 period you're referring to?

  21. 1 A. Yes, there was a joint command, yes.

    2 Q. But my question has to do with '92, '93, and

    3 the whole period up to the Washington Agreement.

    4 A. I don't know how it is defined by law, but I

    5 know that there was no joint command after the

    6 conflict.

    7 Q. My question was, do you agree with me that

    8 the Croatian Defence Council and the army of

    9 Bosnia-Herzegovina were components of the unified armed

    10 forces of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    11 A. I cannot answer that question because they

    12 were confronted parties. How can they be joint forces

    13 when they were in conflict with one another?

    14 MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpreted) Your Honours,

    15 we should like to tender several documents, and one of

    16 them could be shown to the witness. The first exhibit

    17 is a decree with the force of law adopted by the

    18 presidency of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina on the

    19 2nd of February, 1992. We have a copy in Croatian and

    20 in English.

    21 Could I ask the usher for his assistance,

    22 please.

    23 The first document is the decree with the

    24 force of law, and the second document is a letter

    25 addressed to all the addressees indicated in the

  22. 1 letter.

    2 This decision, or rather document number 1 --

    3 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment, Mr. Naumovski

    4 until we've got it, make sure the witness has a copy,

    5 and also it's given an exhibit number.

    6 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D4/1.

    7 MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) The first

    8 document, marked D4/1, is a decree with the force of

    9 law on amendments to the decree with the force of law

    10 on the armed forces of the Republic of Bosnia and

    11 Herzegovina issued by the presidency of the Republic of

    12 Bosnia and Herzegovina and signed by the president,

    13 Alija Izetbegovic, and it was issued on the 6th of

    14 August, 1992, and in the Official Gazette of

    15 Bosnia-Herzegovina, it was published on the 13th of

    16 August, 1992.

    17 The second document that we have tendered.

    18 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D5/1.

    19 MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) Thank you.

    20 This second document is a letter which the Minister of

    21 Defence in the government of the Republic of

    22 Bosnia-Herzegovina, Jerko Doko, addressed on the 9th of

    23 August, 1992, to the general headquarters of the

    24 republic or rather the armed forces of the Republic of

    25 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the general headquarters of the

  23. 1 HVO, and so on; I don't think there's any need for me

    2 to read out all the addressees.

    3 Q. So Mr. Sahinovic, have you looked at both of

    4 these documents, please? Have you seen them before?

    5 Are you familiar with them?

    6 A. I have -- I did see this first document

    7 before, because we had a rule -- a book of rules of the

    8 armed forces.

    9 Q. This is a little booklet for military use?

    10 A. Yes, but all these details of course are

    11 something that I am not very familiar with, as I am not

    12 a lawyer.

    13 Q. Yes, I understand, but I just wanted to

    14 establish something that is undisputable.

    15 A. As for the other document, I have not seen it

    16 before, this letter.

    17 Q. So this decision of the presidency is

    18 undisputed; you are familiar with it from before?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) Having

    21 tendered these two documents, could Your Honours allow

    22 me to tender a third document which also relates to the

    23 same issue, and they comprise a whole?

    24 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

    25 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D6/1.

  24. 1 MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation)

    2 Q. Do you have a copy, Mr. Sahinovic?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. This third document is the decision on

    5 renaming the formations of the Croatian Defence

    6 Council, a decision adopted by the presidency of the

    7 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and signed by the

    8 President Alija Izetbegovic, and it was adopted on the

    9 14th of December, 1993, and published in the official

    10 gazette of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina on the

    11 31st of December, 1993.

    12 It is very brief, Mr. Sahinovic. Have you

    13 seen this decision before?

    14 A. No.

    15 Q. So it is the third document that we wish to

    16 tender so as to complete this set of documents.

    17 So you didn't have this document in your

    18 military book of rules that you referred to a moment

    19 ago?

    20 A. No.

    21 Q. Thank you. Finally, a few more questions

    22 which are not linked amongst themselves, but I will be

    23 very brief.

    24 On the 13th of April, 1993, war officers of

    25 the HVO were kidnapped by the Mujahedin. This was on

  25. 1 the 13th of April, 1993. Do you have any knowledge

    2 about that?

    3 A. I know that they went missing in the

    4 direction of Novi Travnik, that is, between the Vodovod

    5 and Pecine. And upon my return from Bugojno, when I

    6 was coming back from a trip, I was stopped at the HVO

    7 checkpoint in Margetici.

    8 Q. But I would like you to comment on this

    9 kidnapping. How do you know that they went missing?

    10 Was their car found?

    11 A. I just wanted to tell you that I was informed

    12 at that checkpoint that three officers and a driver, I

    13 think, had disappeared. And I was held there for about

    14 half an hour, and personally I asked to get in touch

    15 with Skocibusic, who was head of security, so that we

    16 could search the area where the officers had gone

    17 missing. And they agreed to this at the HVO

    18 checkpoint, and they let me go in the direction of Novi

    19 Travnik.

    20 Q. Were these officers found after the search?

    21 A. You wanted me to explain the details, and I

    22 personally took part in the search, together with a

    23 gentleman from the HVO, the search for these missing

    24 officers. So if you allow me, let me explain the

    25 details.

  26. 1 Q. I don't wish us to tire Their Honours with

    2 the details. I just asked you whether you knew

    3 anything about the negotiations that were conducted

    4 about their release. So if you know anything about

    5 that, we can talk about it.

    6 A. I know nothing about the negotiations. I

    7 just know that together with HVO, I toured Bugojno --

    8 Ravno Rostovo and the barracks where there was a unit

    9 of the 7th Muslim Brigade, their warehouses, together

    10 with the European Monitors, in fact.

    11 Q. Where was this barracks of the 7th Muslim

    12 Brigade located?

    13 A. One company of about 60 men was located in

    14 Ravno Rostovo, I think, and we toured the area together

    15 with the European Monitors.

    16 Q. When you're talking about the 7th Muslim

    17 Brigade, you're referring to the Mujahedin?

    18 A. No.

    19 Q. Who are you referring to?

    20 A. I'm referring to the 7th Muslim.

    21 Q. But the Mujahedin were members of the 7th

    22 Muslim Brigade?

    23 A. As far as I know --

    24 JUDGE MAY: I'm going to interrupt you. The

    25 witness said, much earlier, that he knew nothing about

  27. 1 Mujahedin, so it really seems rather pointless to go on

    2 taking that point. If you want to call evidence about

    3 it, of course, you will be able to when it comes to

    4 your turn.

    5 Is there anything further now for the

    6 witness?

    7 MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) Perhaps one

    8 or two questions. I'm not trying to justify myself,

    9 but if the witness hadn't mentioned the 7th Muslim

    10 Brigade, I wouldn't have asked about the Mujahedin. So

    11 I apologise. If it is your ruling that I shouldn't

    12 come back to that issue, I won't.

    13 Q. Mr. Sahinovic, after the meeting in the

    14 factory with Mr. Kordic on the 24th of February, 1992,

    15 up until the Washington Agreement, did you ever have

    16 any contact with Mr. Kordic again?

    17 A. May I correct you? It wasn't in the factory,

    18 it was in front of the factory. After that, I had no

    19 contact with him, nor did I ever meet with him.

    20 Q. You never saw him, nor did you talk to him?

    21 A. No.

    22 Q. Perhaps another question or two, if Your

    23 Honours allow me.

    24 The villages of Margetici, Pecine, those

    25 villages, after June, 1993, were under the control of

  28. 1 the BH army, weren't they?

    2 A. In view of the fact that I know that these

    3 are mostly Croatian settlements, and as far as I know,

    4 and at the time I was in the area of Opara, I learned

    5 that all the Croatian civilian inhabitants surrendered

    6 to the Chetniks in the area of Mravinci Kamenjac and

    7 headed off towards Vakuf.

    8 Q. Did you learn what the reason for this was?

    9 Were these areas attacked by the BH army?

    10 A. I don't know, because I was in the area of

    11 Opara. But when I came to Novi Travnik, I learned that

    12 the Chetniks had reached the lines which had been held

    13 by HVO units. And they were already firing at Muslim

    14 settlements from those defence lines; that is, the

    15 Chetniks were.

    16 Q. Will you please answer my question? Did

    17 military operations precede the departure of those

    18 inhabitants from the villages? I'm referring to

    19 military operations by the BH army against these

    20 Croatian villages.

    21 A. I don't know that, but I do know that I was

    22 there when the BH army was fighting the Chetniks.

    23 Q. No, but I'm talking about these villages.

    24 A. I don't know.

    25 Q. Tell me, please, are you aware of attacks on

  29. 1 the Croatian villages of Sebesic and Rostovo?

    2 A. In view of the fact that I was working on the

    3 prevention of crime in this area, that was my primary

    4 task, and an operative group had already been formed, I

    5 can't remember exactly how it was called, "G"

    6 something, headed by Mehmed Alagic, and, as far as I

    7 know, joint forces in this area held the lines towards

    8 Sebesic, I couldn't tell you anything about combat

    9 operations because I wasn't there.

    10 Q. That wasn't really my question. I didn't

    11 want to ask you about combat operations. I wanted to

    12 ask you about the destruction of houses and facilities

    13 destroyed and damaged in those villages. Do you know

    14 anything about that, after June, 1993?

    15 A. All I know is that the military police of the

    16 security service of Banja Luka, I think, was

    17 responsible for the security of the area of Sebesici,

    18 and after them, the civilian police of Novi Travnik, so

    19 that any destruction after the departure of the

    20 Croatian inhabitants is something I'm not aware of, in

    21 view of the distance.

    22 Q. So you know nothing about the number of

    23 houses destroyed, the extent of the damage?

    24 A. No, I have no knowledge about that.

    25 MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) Your

  30. 1 Honours, I do not wish to tire you any longer. Thank

    2 you for your patience. I just wanted to remind you of

    3 your permission that after the testimony of this

    4 witness, I be granted a few minutes to comment on the

    5 videotape shown yesterday.

    6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, when the witness has given

    7 evidence.

    8 MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) Thank you.

    9 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic.

    10 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

    11 Cross-examined by Mr. Kovacic:

    12 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation)

    13 Q. Mr. Sahinovic, I'm Bozidar Kovacic. I'm a

    14 lawyer from Rijeka, and I'm defending Mr. Mario

    15 Cerkez.

    16 Would you be so kind as to answer some

    17 questions? We do not have too many of them, because

    18 Mr. Naumovski has already discussed various points with

    19 you, and I'm not going to go back to it. But I should

    20 like to round off that last part of your discussion,

    21 rather the last question about those abandoned

    22 villages.

    23 You said that Croats had left those villages

    24 and surrendered to Serbs and that these tanks had

    25 filled that empty space. I'm referring to the area

  31. 1 around Sebesic. Was that so?

    2 A. No, it was around villages of Margetici and

    3 the defence line to Goles, where the Chetniks were.

    4 Q. But can that area be entered by tanks; can

    5 tanks travel through that area?

    6 A. Yes, they can.

    7 Q. You're sure?

    8 A. Yes, I am.

    9 Q. All right. Now I should like to ask you

    10 about two minor details about what you testified

    11 yesterday in chief, just to clarify these points. I

    12 believe there were some minor errors in the

    13 transcripts.

    14 Yesterday, the transcript, page 36, line 7 to

    15 12, it says that you were deputy first responsible for

    16 morale, and then it again says "deputy for security."

    17 And as far as I remember, you said that in both cases,

    18 both times, you were assistant.

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. You were assistant. So you were an

    21 assistant; that was your office? It was not a deputy

    22 but assistant?

    23 A. Assistant commander for morale in the

    24 battalion and assistant commander for security at the

    25 municipal headquarters in Novi Travnik.

  32. 1 Q. So I should like to ask that this be

    2 rectified.

    3 And since we're on that topic, what is the

    4 difference between an assistant and a deputy, I mean in

    5 the chain of command?

    6 A. As far as I am familiar with the military

    7 terminology, a deputy commander can be a head, a chief,

    8 according to the hierarchy, according to the chain of

    9 command in the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    10 Q. Let me put it in a different way. The

    11 highest rank is the commander; is that it?

    12 A. Yes, commander.

    13 Q. In the Bosnian language, you say "commander",

    14 but I'm referring to the other word in our language.

    15 So this is the highest rank, the commander. Who comes

    16 next in the normal chain of command?

    17 A. Head of staff.

    18 Q. Next?

    19 A. As far as I know, the next is assistant

    20 commander for morale.

    21 Q. And at this level, there are several

    22 assistants responsible for individual areas?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Who comes after them?

    25 A. Let me tell you, there was no legal

  33. 1 interpretation. But in our circles, in the circles of

    2 that headquarters, we always had debates about who was

    3 superior to whom. But assistant commander for security

    4 ranked fourth -- fifth, I think, on the hierarchical

    5 ladder.

    6 Q. Right, so that in the headquarters that you

    7 worked in, if I understood properly, it had its own

    8 structure, its chain of command. It was headquarters

    9 organised along military lines?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. And you were obviously ranking rather high on

    12 that hierarchical ladder?

    13 A. If you mean the battalion --

    14 Q. Yes, at the time when you were responsible

    15 for security.

    16 A. Well, in the battalion, no, that is not a

    17 particularly high-ranking place, but in the command of

    18 the municipality headquarters, it is.

    19 Q. Right, thank you.

    20 Yesterday, you also said, at the beginning of

    21 your testimony in chief, page 39, line 21, as far as I

    22 understood your answer, you said that at Bratstvo in

    23 Novi Travnik, there were about 70 million dollars worth

    24 of stocks, of equipment in stock. Did you say 70 or

    25 seven million?

  34. 1 A. Seventy million dollars.

    2 Q. So, "70"?

    3 A. Seventy million dollars worth of equipment.

    4 Q. So, can this be rectified in the transcript,

    5 please?

    6 There's 70 million dollars worth of

    7 merchandise which Bratstvo was to deliver to the

    8 Yugoslav People's Army on the basis of the contract?

    9 A. No.

    10 Q. Will you please explain that?

    11 A. Bratstvo was to deliver the merchandise

    12 manufactured -- made in '91, and there were contracts

    13 for those lots. There was a decision of the Bosnian

    14 and Herzegovinian government, 6th of '92 -- of the 17th

    15 of February that equipment was to be delivered to the

    16 Yugoslav People's Army. And the rest, as defined by

    17 the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina, referring to the

    18 future. So the government of Bosnia and Herzegovina

    19 was to decide about our production in '92 onward. And

    20 the value of stocks covered both these categories.

    21 Q. So this was the stock physically present at

    22 the factory, regardless of the legal basis regulating

    23 their delivery?

    24 A. Right, yes.

    25 Q. But if I understood this first part of the

  35. 1 production, that is, that's made in '91, that was to be

    2 delivered to the Yugoslav People's Army?

    3 A. I think I said it just now.

    4 Q. I'm asking you, only. No, no, no, I'm asking

    5 you only. Just say "Yes".

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. So it was to be delivered to the Yugoslav

    8 People's Army, and we're already in '92?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. And then you told us that that was why you

    11 put up that roadblock and you had those public

    12 demonstrations at the crossroads between Novi Travnik

    13 and Vitez, because you were concerned about those

    14 stocks, since the money was not forthcoming?

    15 A. The principal reason why we blocked that road

    16 and set up the roadblock was that we were asking the

    17 Bosnian-Herzegovinian government to take care of the

    18 workers socially, to give us either some food or give

    19 us some kind of money. All we wanted was that the

    20 government of Bosnia-Herzegovina take care of the

    21 social status of workers, since they had manufactured,

    22 produced, something, and had not been paid for it.

    23 Q. Yes, right, but let's leave that aside. One

    24 of your arguments that was comprised of that bulletin

    25 that you gave us, you said, "This is merchandise.

  36. 1 We've got money, because merchandise is money, so

    2 relieve us of this merchandise. Rather give us some

    3 means of livelihood." Is that correct?

    4 A. It is, yes.

    5 Q. Right, yes, let's leave it. Let's not go

    6 into it. I think we do understand one another.

    7 At the same time, did you know that in

    8 Croatia, the aggression had already begun, I mean the

    9 Yugoslav People's Army supported by local Serbs against

    10 Croatia?

    11 A. Yes.

    12 Q. Did you at that time have a television, did

    13 Sarajevo Television still operate normally?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. And you could see in the news that war was

    16 raging in Croatia?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. And that JNA was an aggressor; did you

    19 already understand that, did you understand the JNA was

    20 an aggressor in Croatia?

    21 A. I understand.

    22 Q. Did you understand that there was an

    23 international embargo on the delivery of weapons to the

    24 parties to the conflict?

    25 A. I don't know about that.

  37. 1 Q. But you could see that there was war in

    2 Croatia, that people were being killed?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. Thank you. Let us go back to your role in

    5 the army of B and A, when you became an officer.

    6 Will you please, just to see if we know what

    7 we are talking about, a battalion in the army of

    8 Bosnia-Herzegovina, ideally speaking, how strong it

    9 should be, how many men it should have? Just tell me

    10 how strong should it be? How many men is the ideal

    11 size of a battalion, and how many men should be in the

    12 command of such a battalion?

    13 A. I would not know the -- I would not know

    14 exactly. All I know is that in that battalion, we

    15 never had more than 80 per cent of all the men due to

    16 that formation, and that is, I think, not more than

    17 208, as far as I can remember, at that time.

    18 Q. So at the time when it was only 80 per cent

    19 strong, I mean that battalion in terms of an ideal

    20 battalion, how many men were in the command of that

    21 battalion?

    22 A. In the battalion, I think seven or eight --

    23 seven or eight, I believe.

    24 Q. All right, thank you. And the brigade, how

    25 strong should a brigade of the BH army be, roughly?

  38. 1 A. I really don't know. I must apologise here.

    2 I'm not familiar with that terminology, since I did not

    3 even serve in that army then, so I'm really not

    4 conversant with the terminology of those units. And

    5 believe me, I really do not know how many men there

    6 should be in a brigade, but I'm quite sure that it was

    7 not -- never 100 per cent strong.

    8 Q. But the one that you belonged to, 308th, how

    9 many battalions did it have at its peak, shall we say,

    10 in late '93?

    11 A. In late '93, it had three battalions.

    12 Q. So, if every battalion had about 250, so

    13 altogether it should be, shall we say, if we round it

    14 up, about 800 men?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Please, when you spoke about your movements

    17 and your biography, we heard that you were the leader

    18 in Bratstvo, you were the union leader in Bratstvo, and

    19 I assume that you are familiar with that company

    20 because you worked there for a long time. Could you

    21 please tell us something else? And let me try to

    22 expedite matters, and just answer with "Yes" or "No".

    23 Bratstvo is only one link in the chain of the military

    24 industry in Bosnia at the time?

    25 A. Yes.

  39. 1 Q. Shall we take your product which you

    2 mentioned yesterday, say, Oganj. As a layman, I

    3 understand that Oganj is a device which launches

    4 projectiles?

    5 A. It's a rocket system.

    6 Q. It is used to launch projectiles; is that so?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. So Bratstvo made those launching systems;

    9 "Yes" or "No"?

    10 A. It made the mechanical part.

    11 Q. Wait, wait a moment. So, it made the

    12 mechanical part of the system and the projectiles?

    13 A. No, Bratstvo did not make them.

    14 Q. And who did make the projectiles?

    15 A. If I remember well, it was Pretis Vogosca in

    16 Sarajevo, but Bratstvo never made any projectiles.

    17 Q. But since you worked for the military

    18 industry, and we're talking about that, a projectile

    19 is -- and I'm a layman, it has an iron part, that is,

    20 the sleeve and so on and so forth?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. And the rocket motor and the rocket engine,

    23 so it has an iron part, it has a drive, and that drive

    24 needs fuel to be driven, and explosive -- I don't know

    25 what it's called, really.

  40. 1 A. Yes, it does.

    2 Q. And who then made this rocket fuel; do you

    3 know?

    4 A. I don't know.

    5 Q. And who made the explosive?

    6 A. As far as I know, explosive was made in

    7 Vitez.

    8 Q. So if somebody wishes to control the military

    9 industry in Bosnia, he needs at least three factories

    10 to make one whole piece?

    11 A. Until 1992, we made those systems, but as of

    12 '92, Bratstvo company could not make a single piece.

    13 Q. Why?

    14 A. Because it lacked the components, the optical

    15 part of it and so on and so forth.

    16 Q. So, for this kind of manufacturing, for this

    17 kind of production to go on, and somebody who wishes to

    18 control that kind of production, he needs to have

    19 several plants under his control?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Bratstvo was held throughout the conflict

    22 between the Muslims and the Croats in '93, Bratstvo

    23 was, by in large, held by the BH army?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Orkan and Vitezit in Banja Luka, who was in

  41. 1 control --

    2 A. I did not understand.

    3 Q. I mean electronics that was needed for

    4 lasers, for Orkan, the electronics for Orkan -- I don't

    5 know where that was made -- it was not under your

    6 control?

    7 A. No.

    8 Q. It wasn't?

    9 A. No.

    10 Q. And Vitezit, in Vitez, was it under the

    11 control of the army of B and H?

    12 A. You mean Vitez, the plant?

    13 Q. Yes.

    14 A. No, it wasn't.

    15 Q. Let us move on.

    16 At some point in time, you said that you

    17 attended a meeting where again the question of those

    18 stocks in the plant was being discussed and that, among

    19 other people, Vinko Pavelic was present. He also said

    20 that he was lieutenant colonel of the JNA; is that

    21 correct?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Was he the manager of the production or

    24 sales?

    25 A. Production, or rather he was the manager of

  42. 1 the factory, excuse me. Excuse me, I do apologise. He

    2 was the manager of the plant.

    3 Q. So, Vinko Pavelic, I'm referring to early

    4 '92, February and early March, '93 --

    5 A. No, '92, '92, yes.

    6 Q. Vinko Pavelic was the plant manager, he was a

    7 JNA lieutenant colonel, and that is a military factory,

    8 and we have the war in Croatia and you insisted on the

    9 delivery of these weapons into Croatia?

    10 A. No. If you understand us, we never insisted

    11 on the delivery to the Yugoslav People's Army, we never

    12 insisted on delivering the armaments to the Yugoslav

    13 People's Army. What we were asking for was to resolve

    14 the social status of workers, and we were asking the

    15 management also, and the government of

    16 Bosnia-Herzegovina to solve the social status.

    17 Q. Apart from that part of the obligations

    18 contracted in '91?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. When you joined the Territorial Defence,

    21 which then became the army of B and H, who was the

    22 enemy?

    23 A. When I joined the Territorial Defence and

    24 offered my services to the Territorial Defence, only

    25 the Chetniks were our enemy.

  43. 1 Q. And who were the Chetniks? Will you please

    2 tell the Court? Perhaps the Court is not familiar with

    3 our folklore.

    4 A. Well, to be quite clear, all those who fired

    5 at us and sided with the Yugoslav People's Army. We

    6 perceived them all as Chetniks.

    7 Q. So it was the Yugoslav People's Army

    8 supported by local Serbs? Can we say that?

    9 A. Armed local Serbs. So the Serb side were the

    10 JNA and local Serbs.

    11 Q. And that was only four or five months before

    12 this delivery of weapons?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Yes, all right. If the Court permits -- no,

    15 let me ask you another question. At that time, before

    16 the conflict with Croats, I mean in '92 -- in '92 for

    17 the most part, that is until October '92 -- the line

    18 against the Chetniks, against the JNA, did you share it

    19 with Croats, with the HVO?

    20 A. No.

    21 Q. Above Turbe, there were no Croat forces

    22 facing the Chetniks?

    23 A. Yes, but they were behind our backs.

    24 Q. Let me simplify the question. Did the

    25 Territorial Defence, in 1992, was it fighting against

  44. 1 the Serbs in the area of your municipality, rather, in

    2 the boundary areas? They held the line at Kamenjac,

    3 you held this line, you had your troops there, and you

    4 were on that front with Serbs?

    5 A. Yes, but we had one and they had another one.

    6 Q. No, but Serbs are your enemy. I'm talking

    7 about the TO. Did the HVO also hold some sectors?

    8 Were they doing the same thing?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. So both the TO and the HVO held the front

    11 against the Serbs?

    12 A. At that time? Yes.

    13 Q. At that time?

    14 A. Yes, yes, they did.

    15 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) With the

    16 Court's leave, I should like to show a document to the

    17 witness. We have a sufficient number of copies, but

    18 unfortunately we did not succeed with the -- have not

    19 translated it because we only yesterday realised that

    20 it could be interesting for this witness, but we can of

    21 course order translation immediately. It is a very

    22 short document, and we shall give it to the

    23 interpreters so that they can read it out.

    24 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, the rule is that the

    25 documents are translated before they are admitted into

  45. 1 evidence, and it's only in exceptional circumstances

    2 that we will allow documents in an untranslated state

    3 to be put in; but since this is the first occasion, we

    4 will allow you to do so, and because it's short, but on

    5 the whole, the documents must be translated before they

    6 can be put into evidence. It may be that this document

    7 can be interpreted.

    8 Is there a copy for the interpreters?

    9 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Yes, we do

    10 have a copy for interpreters, and we apologise once

    11 again. We simply realised it would be good to adduce

    12 this now. We have some more documents, and some of

    13 them were translated, but I believe we have another one

    14 which has not been translated yet. So if we can ask,

    15 then, the usher to take those documents.

    16 Your Honours, perhaps it would be best if we

    17 asked the interpreters to read this document aloud.

    18 JUDGE MAY: This copy is illegible.

    19 Mr. Kovacic, we are not going to let you put

    20 this document in. It's not legible. It's not

    21 translated. Once it's translated and done properly,

    22 then you can put it in. Meanwhile, we'll hand it

    23 back.

    24 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Thank you,

    25 Your Honour.

  46. 1 Q. Mr. Sahinovic, leave the document; we'll not

    2 do it now. But you did mention Mr. Malbasic as

    3 commander of Stjepan Tomasevic?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. In view of your office, you evidently met him

    6 on various occasions, heard from him?

    7 A. I met him during the negotiations.

    8 Q. Did you ever attend some concrete

    9 negotiations or talks with Stjepan Tomasevic

    10 representatives in relation to that front above Turbe

    11 which you held against the Serbs, regarding the

    12 deployment of units, shifts, passage of troops through

    13 places, any matter concerning inevitable cooperation on

    14 the front?

    15 A. At that time I was not the assistant

    16 commander for security in the brigade, so that I did

    17 not take part in negotiations or talks or preparations

    18 for joint actions in that capacity.

    19 Q. But have you heard of such talks and

    20 agreements?

    21 A. There were no talks until Mr. Boro Malbasic

    22 came. When Mr. Boro Malbasic arrived, the first

    23 negotiations and talks took place, and I think, since I

    24 was there, I think this commander was the man who I

    25 could cooperate with, talk about and expect that --

  47. 1 what the agreed things would be complied with.

    2 Q. So this was the cooperation between these

    3 troops and the HVO while Mr. Malbasic was commander of

    4 the Stjepan Tomasevic?

    5 A. We did not have those agreements as regards

    6 Chetniks.

    7 Q. I don't understand you. Will you please tell

    8 us, can we conclude from what you are saying that there

    9 was cooperation between the HVO and the TO, or rather

    10 the Armija, regarding defence against the Serbs while

    11 Malbasic was the commander?

    12 A. No.

    13 Q. You've just told us there was.

    14 A. There were talks and cooperation in the area

    15 of Novi Travnik, trying to bring down the tension

    16 caused by the arrival of Herzegovinians and so forth.

    17 That is what I had in mind.

    18 Q. Thank you. You just mentioned

    19 Herzegovinians, and you mentioned them yesterday. Just

    20 one sentence, will you please confirm it: You say

    21 there was unrest in the town when the Herzegovinians

    22 came?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Do you know whether HVO did something to put

    25 those Herzegovinians under control? Have you ever

  48. 1 heard anything about it in view of what you did?

    2 A. Yes, yes, I heard it from Mr. Boro Malbasic,

    3 during the negotiations of the 13th, that I had invited

    4 the Bruno Busic unit to put things in Novi Travnik in

    5 order, because they could not keep things under

    6 control. That is what he said, that was his

    7 explanation, during the negotiations in January.

    8 Q. Was the impression that you gained then that

    9 the commander of the Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade was

    10 trying to put the problem under control?

    11 A. When Mr. Boro Malbasic arrived, yes, it was

    12 my impression that he was really trying to put things

    13 in order.

    14 Q. Thank you. Have you ever heard of an

    15 incident which happened at that time, and I will tell

    16 you that it was on the 10th of February in Novi

    17 Travnik, in Kodadjura, a coffee bar, Duro Matinovic was

    18 the owner, when Zoran Jukic, an HVO soldier, was

    19 killed, when the HVO police intervened. Have you heard

    20 anything about that?

    21 A. I knew this young man, because he was my

    22 neighbour when I lived in that part of the town, and I

    23 heard that he had been killed, but I do not know the

    24 circumstances of his death.

    25 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Your Honour, I

  49. 1 apologise, but yesterday we found this document. It is

    2 a very short document -- it is a note, rather, a

    3 communication for the public -- and we have it both

    4 translated into English and -- we can hand it over to

    5 you, and we can ask the witness to read it and then see

    6 whether this is what we are talking about.

    7 Will you please help us?

    8 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D1/2.

    9 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Just to

    10 explain to Your Honours and the Prosecution, it was

    11 D218 in the Blaskic case. It was already tendered in

    12 the Blaskic case. You can see the number up there

    13 already.

    14 Q. Did you have time to read it, or do you need

    15 more time?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. This public announcement that you have just

    18 read, does it relate to that event that I asked you a

    19 while ago? Has it reminded you of that?

    20 A. It is true that at that time, it culminated

    21 at that time; but the circumstances in which this

    22 soldier died, I knew nothing about then, until I read

    23 this.

    24 Q. But what did you hear about that event at

    25 that time? You said you had heard that he had been

  50. 1 killed, and you knew him, and you did not hear anything

    2 else?

    3 A. No.

    4 Q. You only heard that he had been killed?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. You did not hear what happened on that

    7 occasion, how it came about?

    8 A. No.

    9 Q. This does not remind you of that story, of

    10 that rumour which was spread around the town then?

    11 A. No, because information did not reach us

    12 easily at the time.

    13 Q. But could you infer from this that it has to

    14 do with the death of the late Jukic?

    15 A. I don't understand. I don't understand what

    16 you mean.

    17 Q. Now that you've read this announcement, now

    18 that you have read it, do you think that it is related

    19 to that event when you heard that Jukic had been killed

    20 at the time when you heard about it?

    21 A. I suppose so.

    22 Q. Thank you.

    23 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, it's now 11:15. Are

    24 you going to be very much longer?

    25 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) I'm not really

  51. 1 sure. I think I'll need about 20 minutes more, but

    2 this is a convenient time for us to make a break.

    3 JUDGE MAY: We have another witness here, I

    4 take it, Mr. Nice?

    5 MR. NICE: Yes, we do.

    6 JUDGE MAY: I hope, if we put on as much

    7 speed as possible, we can finish that witness

    8 tomorrow.

    9 MR. NICE: That may be optimistic. We'll

    10 have to see.

    11 JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn now. Twenty

    12 minutes.

    13 --- Recess taken at 11.15 a.m.

    14 --- On resuming at 11.40 a.m.

    15 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) I should like

    16 to make a correction in the transcript. It should have

    17 said the people of Herzegovina, Herzegovci, the

    18 Herzegovinians.

    19 Q. Mr. Sahinovic, we were mentioning the

    20 Herzegovinians. Will you tell us, please, Herzegovina,

    21 is that a province within the Republic of

    22 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    23 A. No.

    24 Q. Is it a geographic part of the State of

    25 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

  52. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Thank you. So these Herzegovinians that we

    3 were talking about, they come from the same State,

    4 don't they?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. Yesterday you mentioned the Vitezovi, a unit

    7 of some 25 men that were captured.

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. This group that you were in touch with

    10 personally, did they have their own insignia?

    11 A. I was not personally in touch with that

    12 group, but in the service that I was working in, I

    13 learned that the group was from Vitez and that they

    14 were Vitezovi.

    15 Q. So you have only indirect knowledge about

    16 that?

    17 A. Yes, from my work.

    18 Q. Did you hear that they had their own

    19 insignia?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Did you perhaps hear what those insignia

    22 looked like? What was written on them?

    23 A. They wore the HOS insignia -- no, I'm sorry,

    24 I apologise: Not HOS. No, no, no, but they had the

    25 insignia of Vitezovi. That was a slip of the tongue;

  53. 1 I'm sorry.

    2 Q. But in any way, you do know that they

    3 originate from the HOS?

    4 A. No, I do not know that.

    5 Q. But in any event, they wore insignia which

    6 indicated their membership of a unit?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. Did they have any recognizable kind of

    9 uniforms?

    10 A. No, they wore regular camouflage uniforms.

    11 Q. Very well. You said yesterday that you

    12 didn't know who their commander was?

    13 A. I don't know.

    14 Q. You are referring to the unit that was

    15 captured, or generally, the commander of the Vitezovi?

    16 A. Generally.

    17 Q. Does the name "Darko Kraljevic" mean anything

    18 to you?

    19 A. Darko Kraljevic? I've heard of him.

    20 Q. Could you link that name with the Vitezovi,

    21 perhaps?

    22 A. No.

    23 Q. Thank you. Yesterday, you told us that you

    24 had two direct encounters with the accused, Mario

    25 Cerkez.

  54. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. So I should like to ask you a few questions

    3 about that first encounter, the negotiations on the

    4 13th of January.

    5 A. Yes?

    6 Q. You said something to the effect that this

    7 was a meeting attended by representatives of both

    8 armies and parties -- that is, the SDA and the HDZ --

    9 and it was devoted to a settlement of the situation and

    10 crime control in town; is that correct?

    11 A. The meeting was convened, and I was precise

    12 about this, because of the new development with the

    13 arrival of the Herzegovinians in Novi Travnik.

    14 Q. But the reason was to ease tensions and

    15 restore peace?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. In connection with that meeting, did you, as

    18 a unit of the BH army, receive any order or any kind of

    19 instructions or any kind of document at all from the

    20 commander of the Bosnian army, Mr. Sefer Halilovic,

    21 instructions regarding the need to engage in

    22 negotiations to ease tensions?

    23 A. I don't know.

    24 Q. So you're not aware of that?

    25 A. I'm not.

  55. 1 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Your Honours,

    2 if I may, I should like to tender a document. We have

    3 a translation and a sufficient number of copies for

    4 Your Honours, and then I should like to ask the witness

    5 a couple of questions regarding that document.

    6 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

    7 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) May I ask the

    8 usher for his assistance, please.

    9 THE REGISTRAR: This document is marked

    10 D2/2.

    11 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation)

    12 Mr. Kovacic, I already made the remark, I think

    13 yesterday and the day before: When we are dealing with

    14 documents, particularly brief ones, as we are not going

    15 to ask for something that is difficult to agree to, I

    16 wish to remind you that there are two working

    17 languages, English and French. Therefore I insist,

    18 especially when we have a document of this kind, that

    19 both working languages be used. This is an

    20 International Tribunal, and there is a tendency to

    21 forget that we have two working languages.

    22 I will not repeat this in the future. I just

    23 wanted to remind you of this now. Thank you.

    24 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation)

    25 Judge Bennouna, I really do apologise. We took this

  56. 1 document from the Blaskic case, where it has been

    2 admitted as 456/83. Unfortunately, I assumed there was

    3 a French translation as well, and it was only yesterday

    4 that we discovered that there wasn't a French

    5 translation. In the break we will ask for a French

    6 translation to be made. So I apologise once again.

    7 May I proceed, Your Honour?

    8 Q. Mr. Sahinovic, you have had occasion to read

    9 this document?

    10 A. No. I have read it now.

    11 Q. Well, that's what I meant. Did it perhaps

    12 refresh your memory? It was the initiative behind this

    13 meeting. Did it remind you of that? Because after

    14 all, we're talking about events that took place more

    15 than six years ago.

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. May I take it, then, that this meeting on the

    18 13th of January, which was attended by representatives

    19 of both armies and both parties, was the result, at

    20 least as far as the HVO is concerned, of the command

    21 issued by -- the order issued by their commander,

    22 Milivoj Petkovic?

    23 A. I didn't have occasion to read this order

    24 before, but it is my view that the first man on behalf

    25 of the HVO was Mr. Malbasic, who started the talks with

  57. 1 the BH army in Novi Travnik. So I think that it was,

    2 in the first place, the result of that man's initiative

    3 and less the result of this order.

    4 Q. You obviously respect him, Mr. Malbasic, as a

    5 commander?

    6 A. I do. I respect him as a person with whom it

    7 was possible to negotiate and talk.

    8 Q. Thank you. You told us that this meeting was

    9 held in the Bratstvo offices and that the participants

    10 in the meeting after that went to have lunch at the

    11 Oskar Restaurant, and it was agreed that the

    12 conclusions would be drafted while they were having

    13 lunch?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. As far as I understand it, you did not attend

    16 that lunch.

    17 A. No.

    18 Q. Then you were informed that during the lunch

    19 at Oskar, Zurapi was arrested?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. Did you learn of any other details regarding

    22 the incident in the restaurant?

    23 A. No.

    24 Q. In view of your position as the chief of

    25 security, surely you enquired into it, because after

  58. 1 all, he was your commander that was arrested.

    2 A. As far as I know, Boro Malbasic tried to

    3 resolve the incident, but he failed to do so.

    4 Q. Did you perhaps hear that Boro Malbasic was

    5 disarmed on that occasion as well?

    6 A. No.

    7 Q. Did you perhaps learn that Boro Malbasic

    8 personally intervened by making telephone calls to

    9 ensure Zurapi's early release?

    10 A. As far as I know, he contacted Mr. Blaskic at

    11 the time.

    12 Q. Blaskic. I see. Very well. Did you perhaps

    13 learn that all these other people, including the

    14 representatives of the HVO and the HDZ, stayed on in

    15 the restaurant until they would be informed that Zurapi

    16 was released?

    17 A. No.

    18 Q. So you didn't hear that?

    19 A. No.

    20 Q. Did you at least hear about the conclusions

    21 issued from that meeting? I assume that as a member of

    22 the command, you must have received it.

    23 A. No.

    24 Q. Never?

    25 A. No. But in accordance with those

  59. 1 conclusions, I was given an assignment to participate

    2 in a commission to tour the defence lines which were

    3 about to be abolished.

    4 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Unfortunately,

    5 we have a document that we haven't had time to

    6 translate, but if I may, I should like to read the

    7 first item for the witness, and if he has any knowledge

    8 about it, we would have it translated later.

    9 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

    10 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Let me read --

    11 it's an announcement, or shall I give it to the witness

    12 for him to see?

    13 JUDGE MAY: If you read it out to him,

    14 Mr. Kovacic, that may be the quickest way to proceed.

    15 See if he can identify it or not.

    16 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Thank you.

    17 Q. So, in the heading, it says, "Meeting held on

    18 the 13th of January, 1993, between representatives,"

    19 and then all the people you mentioned are listed; HVO,

    20 HDZ of Novi Travnik, the BH army, the SDA of Novi

    21 Travnik, all of them are listed there, in connection

    22 with the heightened tensions in the municipality, et

    23 cetera.

    24 The following announcement is issued in point

    25 1: They say, "The SDA and the HDZ of Novi Travnik

  60. 1 disassociate themselves from all ill-intentioned

    2 announcements published so far in the media and which

    3 irritate either of the two peoples." That is point 1.

    4 The document consists of seven points, and it

    5 can be seen, from the signature and stamp and the

    6 titles, that the president of the HVO and the HDZ of

    7 Novi Travnik, the president of the SDA of Novi Travnik,

    8 representatives of the BH army and representatives of

    9 the HVO, all of them have signed.

    10 Has this refreshed your memory of such a

    11 communique that was issued?

    12 A. Yes. It just reminded me of the discussions

    13 conducted at that meeting, and then it was agreed that

    14 the conclusions should be drafted and broadcast in the

    15 media.

    16 Q. Would you perhaps be able to recognise the

    17 signature of the representative of the BH army if you

    18 saw it?

    19 A. Yes, I can recognise his signature.

    20 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Your Honours,

    21 may I show the witness this document?

    22 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

    23 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) The usher,

    24 please.

    25 Q. Point 4. Under point 4, you see the

  61. 1 signature?

    2 A. If I may, this is Bislim Zurapi's signature,

    3 the commander of the 308th Brigade.

    4 Q. Can you perhaps recognise the signatures of

    5 some other people, if you ever saw their signatures

    6 before?

    7 A. I cannot.

    8 Q. But you do recognise Zurapi's signature?

    9 A. Yes, I do.

    10 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Your Honours,

    11 we would have this document translated into French and

    12 English, and then we would like to ask for it to be

    13 admitted into evidence, since the witness has

    14 recognised one of the signatures.

    15 JUDGE MAY: When it's translated.

    16 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Yes. May we

    17 have a number for this document, please?

    18 JUDGE MAY: Not until it's put into

    19 evidence.

    20 MR. KOVACIC: Okay, Sir. (Interpretation)

    21 Q. Regarding your second direct encounter with

    22 Mr. Mario Cerkez, you explained it to us yesterday, but

    23 you mentioned that at that meeting in Vitez which you

    24 attended, there was Mario Cerkez and representatives of

    25 the International Monitors; is that correct?

  62. 1 A. Yes, the European Monitors.

    2 Q. In a statement that you gave to the

    3 investigators, of which we have a copy, and this is

    4 your interview held on the 5th and 8th of March, 1999,

    5 which means five weeks ago, roughly, it is stated, and

    6 if I may, I would like to read from it --

    7 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, before you read from

    8 a statement, the witness must have a copy so that he

    9 can follow what's being put. It has been put into

    10 evidence. If my recollection is right, it's D3/1.

    11 MR. KOVACIC: Yes. (Interpretation) Yes,

    12 D3/1. I shall like to ask the usher to give the

    13 witness a copy, please, and I ask the witness to turn

    14 to page 5,18, the first and second sentence.

    15 Q. Will you read it, please?

    16 A. "On another occasion, I went to the Vitez HVO

    17 command. Blaskic was there, Mario Cerkez, and

    18 representatives from ECMM." That is the acronym for

    19 the monitors.

    20 Q. You didn't tell us yesterday that Blaskic was

    21 there. Did you forget to mention him? What, in fact,

    22 was the case? Was Blaskic there?

    23 A. He wasn't there, but in the statement, I was

    24 thinking of his command, which was in the hotel.

    25 Q. So the meeting was in the Blaskic command

  63. 1 headquarters, but it was only Cerkez who was present.

    2 So your role was simply to establish contact, wasn't

    3 it?

    4 A. That is the conclusion I made when I came to

    5 Vitez. I didn't know at all what my task was. I

    6 wasn't clear about it when I came to Vitez. And when I

    7 saw, from the colleagues going with me, that the

    8 purpose of my coming was to establish contact between

    9 the two parties, Cerkez and Urema.

    10 Q. So they told you to establish that contact,

    11 and after that, you had nothing to do with it?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. And you were told by the HVO that Cerkez

    14 would be the contact?

    15 A. No, nothing.

    16 Q. So not even that?

    17 A. No, nothing.

    18 Q. Witness -- I should like again to ask the

    19 usher to show the witness Prosecution Exhibit 2612/3B.

    20 It's a map of the area of Novi Travnik on which a

    21 previous witness had marked roughly the boundaries of

    22 the Novi Travnik municipality.

    23 A very brief question for you.

    24 Tell me, Witness, please, this boundary drawn

    25 in black, to your best knowledge, would that coincide

  64. 1 with the boundaries of the Novi Travnik municipality?

    2 A. If I may, you mean this thick black line?

    3 Q. Would you point it out to us on the screen?

    4 A. Yes. I must apologise. I don't think it is

    5 very clear to me. The names are not very legible.

    6 Q. So look at it more closely.

    7 A. Yes, it does correspond.

    8 Q. Of course, roughly. Nobody is claiming that

    9 it is exactly so.

    10 Could you tell us, again roughly -- could you

    11 mark in red on that same map, after the conflict in

    12 June, 1993, which part of the territory of the

    13 municipality was under the control of the HVO and which

    14 part was under the control of the BH army? We do not

    15 necessarily have to mark all individual villages, but

    16 very roughly.

    17 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, we can't mark the

    18 same map, or otherwise things will get in a complete

    19 muddle. Have you got a clean copy?

    20 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Yes, of

    21 course.

    22 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness mark a

    23 clean copy, which will be this exhibit number, C.

    24 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation)

    25 Q. Witness, you have the same map, but just

  65. 1 another copy on which we can draw whatever we like. So

    2 will you please take the red marker and show us

    3 roughly, to just give us an idea, what part of the

    4 municipality's territory was under the HVO after the

    5 conflict in June, '93, and which was under the control

    6 of the BH army? Could you please try to mark that?

    7 A. I do apologise. This isn't easy, but here,

    8 where we do not have all the localities, all the

    9 inhabited places, I really cannot find my way around

    10 this small map. So do you have a more detailed map

    11 with the names of the localities? It will be easier

    12 for me to then identify those areas.

    13 JUDGE MAY: Yes, this isn't going to work.

    14 The witness can't do it. You'll have to call some

    15 evidence about it, Mr. Kovacic. Yes. Hand the

    16 document back, please.

    17 MR. KOVACIC: Okay. (Interpretation) Since

    18 the witness says he cannot do it, and we are quite

    19 satisfied with that answer.

    20 Q. Just a minor question and I shall be over.

    21 Mr. Sahinovic, will you tell us, please, you

    22 were asked in considerable detail by Mr. Kordic's

    23 defence about that convoy, so I do not want to go into

    24 that particularly, but will you tell us if

    25 Mr. Berberovic worked with you in the headquarters?

  66. 1 That is, do you know him?

    2 A. Yes. He was commander of the municipal staff

    3 of the Territorial Defence.

    4 Q. Is it true that in relation to that convoy,

    5 he later went to Motel -- I can't remember its name,

    6 where parts of the 7th Muslim were and where allegedly

    7 was the money for that convoy, perhaps as somebody

    8 responsible for security might have heard something

    9 about that?

    10 A. I don't know what money you're talking about.

    11 Q. Allegedly, the convoy was also carrying a

    12 considerable amount of money in German marks. Do you

    13 know anything about that?

    14 A. No.

    15 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you.

    16 Thank you. I have no further questions, Your

    17 Honours.

    18 JUDGE MAY: Judge Robinson has a question.

    19 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Kovacic, at the outset

    20 of your cross-examination, you clarified through the

    21 witness that he was an assistant commander in the

    22 municipality, not a deputy, for which I am grateful.

    23 What I wanted to find out was how many ranks were there

    24 below his rank of assistant commander?

    25 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) You want me to

  67. 1 ask him that?

    2 Q. Did you understand the question? We talked

    3 about that, that is, the structure of the chain of

    4 command. We said commander, deputies, assistants,

    5 heads. Could you tell us below you? So assistants are

    6 assistants to the commander, and then we have heads of

    7 sectors. Who else below the heads of sectors?

    8 A. In the municipal headquarters of the

    9 Territorial Defence, I was assistant commander for

    10 security, and below me there were no others who would

    11 be subordinated to me. But in the brigade's command,

    12 there was assistant commander for security, commander

    13 of the military police, so those would be the ranks

    14 below the assistant commander for security.

    15 Q. What ranks did they -- what rank did you

    16 have?

    17 A. I acquired my rank when -- in '94, '95, when

    18 I moved to that corps, I was ranked as a captain.

    19 Q. But at the time that we are talking about,

    20 there were no ranks?

    21 A. No, there were not.

    22 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Thank you.

    23 MR. NICE: A few matters in re-examination.

    24 Re-examined by Mr. Nice:

    25 Q. Mr. Sahinovic, you've been asked a few

  68. 1 questions about the blockade of the road by the workers

    2 in the factory. At the time that you were doing that,

    3 were the workers being paid at all?

    4 A. No.

    5 Q. For how long had they been without earnings?

    6 A. As far as I can remember now, it must have

    7 been three or four months that we went without

    8 salaries. And in February and then March, 1992, the

    9 government helped the workers with 50 per cent of their

    10 salaries.

    11 Q. You've been asked about the document 78A, the

    12 receipt. May he just have it once more please? Sorry,

    13 78 and 78A. 78 is the English, and 78A is one of the

    14 versions in BCS. The Tribunal has 78 in the English.

    15 That was the only point I wanted to turn to.

    16 You told us yesterday that this was a

    17 document that you've never seen before as to its

    18 format. You've been asked questions about it. The

    19 third paragraph speaks of the secretariat being obliged

    20 to return all pay for the aforementioned equipment by

    21 the 20th of June, 1992. Can you help us with whether

    22 any payment was received?

    23 A. Not while I was at the plant. And when I

    24 left it and joined the Territorial Defence, I do not

    25 know what happened then.

  69. 1 MR. NICE: May the witness please have his

    2 statement for the next two questions? That's

    3 Exhibit 3/1 of the Defence.

    4 Q. Paragraph 15 is a paragraph about which

    5 you've been asked, and in the middle of that paragraph,

    6 you refer to Croats being the victims of crimes. Take

    7 your time to recall this passage of your statement and,

    8 indeed, this time in the history. The question to

    9 which I would like an answer is this:

    10 To your knowledge, by whom were crimes

    11 committed of which Croats were victims?

    12 A. Herzegovinians.

    13 Q. Paragraph 18 was a paragraph about which you

    14 were asked. Your Honour, this is not a problem, but if

    15 the Court has the paragraph in front of it --

    16 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

    17 MR. NICE: I observe that no specific

    18 questions were directed to the centre of the paragraph,

    19 lines 4 and 5, on Mr. Cerkez's behalf, and therefore to

    20 some extent I don't know where I am. I was going to

    21 ask whether, in relation to the balance of the

    22 paragraph, what he sets out is correct and accurate.

    23 MR. STEIN: And I would object.

    24 JUDGE MAY: Including the statement which

    25 is --

  70. 1 MR. NICE: Of course, yes.

    2 JUDGE MAY: -- which it is alleged he said?

    3 MR. NICE: Yes. I'm not sure why Mr. Stein

    4 is on his feet. This really concerns Mr. Cerkez. But

    5 it also arises from the position in which we find

    6 ourselves, where, and I quite understand the reasoning,

    7 where the Defence are not obliged to put a positive

    8 case. But these are matters that perhaps should be

    9 dealt with one way or another before the witness leaves

    10 The Hague.

    11 JUDGE MAY: And there is a question of

    12 principle involved, which is if part of the statement

    13 is put, are you entitled to put other parts?

    14 MR. NICE: That also arises, yes.

    15 MR. STEIN: And that's why I'm on my feet.

    16 JUDGE MAY: What do you say, Mr. Stein?

    17 MR. STEIN: The document was used for

    18 impeachment purposes only. Now, for the Court's

    19 edification and ease, the document was provided to the

    20 Court. I was surprised, frankly, to find out it had

    21 been marked and entered as a full exhibit. In the

    22 custom that I'm used to, at least, we would have it

    23 only used by the Court to help in seeing the impeaching

    24 material but not marked as a full exhibit.

    25 The opposition apparently now wants to take

  71. 1 advantage of the fact that it was used in impeachment

    2 and go with other aspects of a document that was not

    3 relied on in cross-examination.

    4 JUDGE MAY: I don't think there's a ruling in

    5 this Tribunal about this. In the jurisdiction of which

    6 I'm familiar, there are two views about it. One view

    7 is you're entitled to use the statement if it's put in;

    8 the other side can use it if any of it is used. The

    9 other view is similar to that which you are supporting,

    10 which is that the other side are not entitled to use

    11 the rest of it.

    12 MR. STEIN: And perhaps the simplest

    13 resolution, if I may suggest, is if we're to use part

    14 of a statement for impeachment only, then that

    15 statement -- that part only be shown to the witness and

    16 to the Court, the rest redacted or -- with photocopied

    17 material. We can certainly do that. And then the

    18 limitation to the use of impeaching material is quite

    19 clear.

    20 JUDGE MAY: Well, that's not important here

    21 because we're not a jury. The reason for redacting it

    22 is so the jury don't see anything which is

    23 prejudicial. But we'll briefly consider the point.

    24 MR. NICE: First of all, of course, we have

    25 yet to hear from counsel involved in the Cerkez

  72. 1 matter.

    2 JUDGE MAY: Well, that doesn't matter.

    3 MR. NICE: Except that my concern is not

    4 particularly, at the moment, with the issue in

    5 principle of how a statement should be dealt with but

    6 the particular topic that's dealt with in paragraph 18

    7 and how that should be left, because it hasn't been

    8 cross-examined too specifically, which is why I rose.

    9 Not why I rose; why I raised this issue.

    10 As to the general argument, if the Court's

    11 concerned to make a general ruling today, I would

    12 invite the Court to say that the practice to be

    13 preferred is one where, at the very least, the overall

    14 passage in which the particular sentence or sentences

    15 occur that are used for impeachment should be

    16 exhibited, and where any significant part of a

    17 statement has been relied on for purposes of

    18 impeachment, then the whole of the statement should be

    19 produced and exhibited in order to counter allegations

    20 of lack of integrity.

    21 In this particular case, I'm only concerned

    22 that the totality of paragraph 18 might be read out to

    23 the witness, and I might have been concerned to have

    24 had the totality of paragraph 15 read out, but I was

    25 able to achieve the purpose that I wished to achieve in

  73. 1 a shorter way.

    2 MR. STEIN: And just again for the Court's

    3 consideration, because this is going to be with us for

    4 the rest of the trial, the statements of the officers

    5 of the investigative branch of the Prosecutor are

    6 far-ranging. Even if done paragraph by paragraph, you

    7 may have several points which may never have been

    8 raised in direct examination and certainly were not

    9 raised in cross. So trying to limit or to suggest, as

    10 my opposition suggested, the whole paragraph in which a

    11 statement exists be put into the record, rather to an

    12 arbitrary rule, doesn't take us very far.

    13 In other words, if the entire paragraph

    14 relates to an issue, by all means, certainly it makes

    15 sense, but that's not to say every paragraph in every

    16 instance will always relate to the specific issue at

    17 hand. There may be two or three other thoughts

    18 expressed.

    19 Now, while I'm on my feet, certainly should

    20 the paragraph at issue be used for impeachment and if

    21 there are other paragraphs within the document itself

    22 that relates to the issue for rehabilitation or

    23 consistency, then that's obviously fair game for the

    24 other side. But I just am concerned about the total

    25 incorporation. When we use any document merely for

  74. 1 impeachment, it opens up a door beyond which I think is

    2 dangerous for all of us concerned.

    3 By way of an example, if there are other

    4 items in the document which the Prosecution steered a

    5 wide berth of and which we would as well, suddenly they

    6 are part of the record, in whole or in part, because of

    7 the mere marking of the exhibit. Your Honours may

    8 never have your eyes drawn towards them, it may never

    9 be part of the record or part of your consideration,

    10 but it would nonetheless incorporate a massive amount

    11 of information or detail not suggested by the --

    12 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel, will you please

    13 slow down because of the interpreters.

    14 MR. STEIN: -- I'm sorry -- not suggested by

    15 the Prosecution or the Defence.

    16 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

    17 Mr. Kovacic.

    18 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Your Honours,

    19 I'm not quite sure that I am with my learned friend

    20 from the Prosecution regarding what he said about

    21 sentences somewhere midway in paragraph 15. I think he

    22 is trying to imply that the accused Mario Cerkez has

    23 something to do with those Herzegovinians mentioned

    24 there, and from this witness, we heard it well, and we

    25 all asked him about those Herzegovinians and

  75. 1 established who -- what they were.

    2 So will perhaps the Prosecution qualify this

    3 statement, because according to a possible

    4 interpretation of what I heard -- and as I said, I'm

    5 not quite sure that I understood him properly -- he is

    6 implying that we did not ask about something that might

    7 be of relevance for Mr. Cerkez's defence.

    8 Herzegovinians have nothing to do with Cerkez, and that

    9 is what we heard this witness say. It was an army

    10 which came to Novi Travnik. We know what Cerkez was in

    11 Novi Travnik at the time. So will he please clarify

    12 that.

    13 JUDGE MAY: I don't think he needs to.

    14 That's not the point, and I don't think it's being

    15 suggested that Mr. Cerkez was involved with the

    16 Herzegovinians at all. The point is whether the

    17 Prosecution should be able to ask further about a

    18 statement which has been put to the witness to clarify

    19 something in it. Mr. Stein objects. Do you associate

    20 yourself with that objection?

    21 You do.

    22 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Yes, in that

    23 part, yes, but I thought that the Prosecution was

    24 trying to imply something with regard to those

    25 Herzegovinians. If that is what you just said, and it

  76. 1 must be, since you said it, then I agree with what

    2 Mr. Stein has said.

    3 MR. STEIN: May I suggest, as a practical

    4 matter to the Court, to impeach a witness, if we can

    5 merely put the exhibit we're tying to impeach from on

    6 the ELMO, that part is seen, and that might solve the

    7 problem in its entirety.

    8 JUDGE MAY: We're going to stop this debate,

    9 and we're going to --

    10 MR. NICE: I know Your Honour doesn't want a

    11 free-for-all, and Mr. Stein has, I think, been on his

    12 feet three, or it may even be four times. I only

    13 desire to make one point at this stage, because

    14 Mr. Stein uses phrases like "opposition" and "steering

    15 a wide berth of." There is no question of the

    16 Prosecution being tactical in its use of this material

    17 at all. So far as we are concerned, at any time, the

    18 Court can see all of any of these statements if it

    19 wishes to. It's just a question of establishing, (a),

    20 whether an issue like that which appears from the third

    21 and fourth lines of this paragraph should be resolved

    22 before the witness leaves, and the Court will remember,

    23 when we raised procedural matters, the Court said it

    24 could always require such matters to be clarified

    25 before witnesses left the witness box.

  77. 1 And then the second issue is how these

    2 statements should be dealt with when they're

    3 cross-examined to.

    4 JUDGE MAY: Yes, thank you. I make it plain

    5 that I am not going to have counsel bobbing up and

    6 down. In future, these debates will be conducted in a

    7 proper way: One side, then the other, and a reply by

    8 the first side making the application, rather than

    9 constant interruption.

    10 Yes, we'll consider it.

    11 (Trial Chamber deliberates)

    12 JUDGE MAY: The issue which we have to

    13 resolve here is to what extent a party re-examining can

    14 go beyond that part of a witness's statement upon which

    15 he or she has been cross-examined.

    16 There are clearly arguments, and in some

    17 jurisdictions, I've already said, it is the rule that a

    18 party can cross-examine on the entire statement. But

    19 we have to secure a fair trial; that is, a fair trial

    20 for both sides. We think that that is best secured by

    21 restricting any re-examination to matters which have

    22 arisen in cross-examination, so that would be to limit

    23 any re-examination to the passages which have been

    24 cross-examined, unless it is to clarify a passage which

    25 has been cross-examined. There will be no further

  78. 1 re-examination permitted.

    2 So in this case, only that part of paragraph

    3 18 which has been cross-examined may be the subject

    4 of re-examination. It may be necessary to make rulings

    5 from time to time as to how far that can be taken, but

    6 that is the broad principle which we shall follow.

    7 As far as the practicalities of procedures

    8 are concerned, it has been the practice in the

    9 Tribunal, in my experience, for such statements to be

    10 made exhibits. As I said in argument, we are not a

    11 jury who have to be protected from prejudicial

    12 material, and it is a much simpler, more

    13 straightforward way to put the entire document to the

    14 witness and then to put it in as an exhibit. We will

    15 of course take no notice of any other prejudicial

    16 matter which hasn't been the subject of evidence.

    17 MR. NICE: Thank you, in which case the only

    18 potential outstanding matter is whether the Court now

    19 or in due course will want to clarify for itself --

    20 forget the statement -- whether the subject matter that

    21 I was turning to, which has been the subject of

    22 somewhat general questions in cross-examination, needs

    23 to be clarified with Defence counsel or not, but I'm

    24 not going to take it any further myself.

    25 So you can hand that statement back in,

  79. 1 please, to the Court.

    2 Q. You've been asked about the 25 Croats held at

    3 the gymnasium in Opara. So far as they are concerned,

    4 were they soldiers, civilians, a mixture of both, or

    5 don't you know?

    6 A. They were men of military age, mostly men of

    7 military age, but they were without arms.

    8 Q. Did you see them yourself?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. How were they treated at the time you saw

    11 them?

    12 A. In the same way as all members of the army of

    13 Bosnia and Herzegovina, because they were together.

    14 Q. Were they maltreated in any way?

    15 A. No.

    16 Q. You were asked about your efforts to find the

    17 officers and the driver on the 13th of June (sic) of

    18 1993. Were your efforts successful? Were they found?

    19 A. As far as I know, we looked for them for two

    20 days in an area where members of the HVO thought they

    21 could be. However, during those two days of our joint

    22 quest for them, together with the European monitors, we

    23 did not succeed in finding them. Where they were and

    24 how they were exchanged is something I do not know.

    25 MR. NICE: May the witness see D1/2, please.

  80. 1 I don't know if there is any better original version

    2 than the photocopies we have, or indeed if there is an

    3 original in court that we might look at. If there is

    4 no other better version, I'll ask the witness to deal

    5 with this version.

    6 Q. What you have before you is a photocopy of

    7 some other piece of paper. To your knowledge, had you

    8 ever seen this piece of paper or anything like it

    9 before?

    10 A. No.

    11 Q. The last paragraph reads as follows, and I'll

    12 read it in English, and if you follow it, please, in

    13 the original: "All parts of the civilian and military

    14 authorities of the Novi Travnik HVO have been

    15 continuously working on the full establishment of

    16 public order and peace and the protection of personal

    17 safety and property of all Novi Travnik citizens." And

    18 that's dated the 10th of February, 1993.

    19 Have you seen things like that ever published

    20 at about this time, observations like that published at

    21 about this time?

    22 A. No.

    23 Q. How did that paragraph, tell us, compare with

    24 your experience of things on the ground at that time?

    25 A. I don't know whether this paragraph can be

  81. 1 compared at all with events at the time in Novi

    2 Travnik. Just because I personally know this gentleman

    3 who is said to have been killed here, because he was my

    4 next-door neighbour in the street in which I lived, he

    5 was a criminal, who, because of the problems he was

    6 provoking in the area under HVO control, was killed, if

    7 he was killed.

    8 MR. NICE: Yes, nothing else arising. Thank

    9 you.

    10 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sahinovic, thank you for

    11 coming to the International Tribunal to give evidence.

    12 You are now released.

    13 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours.

    14 (The witness withdrew)

    15 MR. NICE: Before I call the next witness, I

    16 think I ought to explain something to the Court, and

    17 for that I think I would be assisted by a very --

    18 technically by a very short -- is it called "private

    19 session"? I don't need a closed session or don't apply

    20 for a closed session, since I will be referring to

    21 something that is to a degree confidential, and it will

    22 only take a minute or two, I think it would be

    23 preferable to have what we were told before we started

    24 this case, by I think Ms. Featherstone, is a private

    25 session, where I imagine the transcript would be

  82. 1 restricted and where sound is cut off from the public

    2 gallery, but it would only be for a minute.

    3 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Naumovski, what is your

    4 point?

    5 MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) I apologise

    6 for standing, Your Honour, but while we're still in

    7 public session, perhaps we could finish what you were

    8 kind enough to allow me to do after the witness departs

    9 in connection with the videotape.

    10 JUDGE MAY: Very well, but if you would deal

    11 with it briefly, and it is an indulgence to allow you

    12 to address us in this way, but because of the peculiar

    13 circumstances and the way in which the document was put

    14 in, we'll let you do it.

    15 MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) Thank you,

    16 Your Honours. I wanted to express my gratitude for

    17 your indulgence, and so we have marked in colour, in

    18 the English version of the text, some of the sentences

    19 which I should like to comment on very briefly, without

    20 wasting any more time, and then Your Honours perhaps

    21 can read these marked passages subsequently. So if I

    22 may be allowed to enter them into evidence?

    23 JUDGE MAY: Well, you can give us copies. I

    24 don't think they should be entered into evidence. You

    25 can give us whatever document you want.

  83. 1 MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) Mr. Usher,

    2 please.

    3 This is the same transcript that we were

    4 given by the Prosecution under Number 53A in the

    5 English version. The selection was made by the

    6 Prosecutor himself, rather than us making any

    7 selection, so it was the exclusive choice of the

    8 Prosecution. Under Roman II, Roman IV and V, we have

    9 highlighted certain phrases which we consider to be

    10 relevant and would like to ask the Court to pay

    11 attention to them.

    12 Talking to this witness, Mr. Sahinovic, and

    13 following the chronology of events, the Defence submits

    14 that this press conference, or we could call it a talk

    15 show, on Sarajevo television, that that programme took

    16 place in March 1992; that is, after the Republic of

    17 Bosnia-Herzegovina had declared its independence.

    18 I should just like to say a few words about

    19 paragraph 2. Mention is made about the military

    20 industry, and I beg Your Honours to look at this,

    21 because the military industry in the former Yugoslavia

    22 had exclusive production designed solely for the

    23 Yugoslav People's Army. However, at this point in

    24 time, the Yugoslav People's Army was no longer the

    25 Yugoslav People's Army, because the state of which it

  84. 1 was an army had broken up.

    2 So in this paragraph II, it is also important

    3 to note that Mr. Kordic said that federal regulations

    4 cannot be recognised. He is referring to the

    5 regulations of a state which at that point in time no

    6 longer exists, because the Republic of

    7 Bosnia-Herzegovina had become independent in the

    8 meantime.

    9 Then, briefly, regarding paragraph Roman IV,

    10 when Mr. Kordic was asked in what capacity he was

    11 speaking, he says that he had the position of

    12 vice-president of the Croatian Community of

    13 Herceg-Bosna, and that the Novi Travnik municipality

    14 had become part of the Croatian Community of

    15 Herceg-Bosna. What is particularly important, he says

    16 as far as the Croatian people are concerned, and then

    17 again, paragraph V, on the last page, when Kordic says

    18 that he thinks that no one can deny the right of the

    19 Croatian people to organise themselves into the

    20 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, it is also

    21 important, and I quote: "And into other Croatian

    22 communities."

    23 I thank Your Honours for your patience.

    24 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

    25 Yes, Mr. Kovacic?

  85. 1 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Your Honours,

    2 I think we need immediately correct the transcript.

    3 Colleague Nice asked the witness -- and I'm referring

    4 to page 77, Line 16 -- about the hijacking of those

    5 officers, and I think colleague Nice made a slip of the

    6 tongue when he said that this had happened on the 13th

    7 of June, 1993, but in fact it was the 13th of April,

    8 1993, so it must be an error. Could it be corrected,

    9 please, in time.

    10 JUDGE MAY: Very well, if that's right.

    11 MR. NICE: I'm grateful. It was an error,

    12 and I'm grateful to Mr. Kovacic for correcting me.

    13 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Now, you want to go to a

    14 private session?

    15 MR. NICE: Only for a couple of minutes.

    16 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll do that.

    17 (Private session)

    18 (redacted)

    19 (redacted)

    20 (redacted)

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 (redacted)

  86. 1












    13 Redacted page 1148 – private session













  87. 1












    13 Redacted page 1149 – private session













  88. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 (redacted)

    7 (redacted)

    8 (redacted)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (Open session)

    14 JUDGE MAY: Judge Bennouna wishes to say

    15 something.

    16 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) I confirm

    17 what has been said by Mr. Nice, but we have to know I

    18 did this in a spirit of cooperation to facilitate our

    19 work, the rule being, however, that documents have to

    20 be translated into both official languages, the

    21 exception being when it is not translated. So I wanted

    22 to make it quite clear that I was speaking in a spirit

    23 of flexibility and understanding, and I would like the

    24 rule to be translation, and in exceptional cases, I

    25 will accept that there is no translation and we can

  89. 1 work on an English text, though this will be more

    2 difficult and less precise as far as I'm concerned.

    3 That's all.

    4 MR. STEIN: May I raise with the court two

    5 very brief issues. With earlier witnesses, it became

    6 apparent that they were bringing to The Hague papers or

    7 documents -- in one case, of a journal -- which the

    8 investigators or lawyers for the Tribunal were going

    9 over with the witness in their forming, or -- I gather

    10 "forming" is a word for "preparation." It became

    11 apparent, and I argued successfully, that to the extent

    12 that documents and those kinds of things were

    13 available, that we would like to see them, even if we

    14 couldn't see the full translation in English and

    15 Serbo-Croatian, the entire thing as soon as we possibly

    16 can, half being better than nothing.

    17 I would argue also that sooner is better than

    18 later. Yesterday, at the close of the session, we

    19 received a half-dozen newspaper articles relative to

    20 the next witness that he brought with him to The

    21 Hague. During his forming, this was apparently given.

    22 This is a witness who -- I don't know how long he's

    23 been in The Hague but was interviewed in 1992 and in

    24 1995 by investigators from the Prosecution. We now

    25 have the documents. Apparently he has provided them

  90. 1 more documents.

    2 All I'm asking for is that as these documents

    3 become available in the preparation of a witness, yes,

    4 we would like them as soon as possible in whatever

    5 language they come in, followed by a translation; but I

    6 would like to alert the Court that this is apparently

    7 going to be a continuing problem. These documents are

    8 from 1992, prior to the witness's being interviewed

    9 initially, and then again by the Office of the

    10 Prosecutor. Why this witness has suddenly produced

    11 them, I do not know. When he produced them, I do not

    12 know. How long he's been in The Hague, I do not know.

    13 But it is becoming a problem for us as we are trying to

    14 prepare for the next day's proceeding when we get them

    15 the night before.

    16 I have another point, if I may. I am

    17 assuming that the sequestration order for witnesses,

    18 once they swear the oath, includes investigators from

    19 the Office of the Prosecutor. That's the assumption

    20 I've been working under. It was never clearly

    21 articulated. I believe my colleague on the other side

    22 is also going under that same assumption. I just

    23 wanted to make it clear.

    24 JUDGE MAY: Yes, it clearly covers the

    25 investigators too.

  91. 1 As for the other matter which you raised, it

    2 is something which will have to be dealt with with the

    3 Prosecution, and in conjunction with them, I would hope

    4 that a working arrangement could be arrived at.

    5 MR. STEIN: Certainly the liaison between the

    6 prosecution's office and our office has established a

    7 working relationship, and it's been edifying to work

    8 with her.

    9 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic?

    10 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) may I just ask

    11 for the floor very briefly. I must go back again to

    12 the discussion started by my learned friend regarding

    13 questions linked to the defence of Mr. Cerkez to

    14 exclude any confusion.

    15 Three facts are important. One is that the

    16 Prosecution, in preparing the main hearing, asked the

    17 Court to rule regarding some procedural matters. If I

    18 recollect well, the question of the impeachment of the

    19 witness and the cross-examination of the witness was

    20 raised, the presumption being that the witness should

    21 not be provoked, and the Court overruled that.

    22 Another point underlined by this Chamber, and

    23 that is that we come from different jurisdictions and

    24 that you would bear that in mind in managing the

    25 proceedings. I do not see that we have the obligation

  92. 1 to ask about Cerkez's position at that time in Novi

    2 Travnik. Furthermore, it was the duty of the Defence

    3 to explain this in our pre-trial brief, which we did.

    4 So whether we are going to question the witness about

    5 this or not is up to the Defence, because there are no

    6 restrictions in your rulings nor in the rules, plus you

    7 gave us the freedom to act in a different manner

    8 precisely because we come from different

    9 jurisdictions.

    10 If that is not so, could the Court give us

    11 some instructions? I cannot accept what my learned

    12 friend the Prosecutor has said.

    13 JUDGE MAY: You've interpreted our ruling

    14 correctly. The point which the Prosecution were making

    15 is that at an earlier hearing, I said that the Court

    16 may require clarification of the issues. Although it

    17 may not have been appropriate on this occasion, if

    18 there are important issues which are not the subject of

    19 cross-examination, it may be that the Court will ask

    20 you what your position is about it, so that we may have

    21 the issues fully clarified for the purposes of the

    22 trial. That was the point that was being made, and I

    23 give you that warning.

    24 Now, it's 5 to 1.00.

    25 MR. NICE: Yes, just dealing with exhibits:

  93. 1 The Rules of the Tribunal, of course, make no provision

    2 for early production of Prosecution exhibits, and I

    3 gather in other trials exhibits are simply produced

    4 through the witness as he gives evidence. Regardless

    5 of that, I've taken the view that wherever an exhibit

    6 additional to that of which the Defence were already

    7 aware comes to our knowledge and we intend to use it,

    8 the better course is to hand it over at an early

    9 stage. That's what I'm going to be doing, because it

    10 makes for a smoother-running trial, and it makes life

    11 easier for them, but that's in excess of what actually

    12 our duty is.

    13 So that's what I desire to say about that.

    14 Yes, it's 5 to 1.00; I'm in the Court's hands.

    15 JUDGE MAY: We would encourage you to

    16 disclose everything as soon as possible, as you are

    17 doing, because as you say, it makes the trial run much

    18 more smoothly, and it's much fairer.

    19 MR. NICE: Yes. I don't have any trouble

    20 with that.

    21 JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn now, but we'll sit

    22 at 25 past 2.00.

    23 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.55 p.m.



  94. 1 --- On resuming at 2.25 p.m.

    2 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

    3 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

    4 truth.


    6 (Witness answers through interpreter)

    7 Examined by Mr. Nice:

    8 Q. Your full name, please.

    9 A. Dragutin Zvonimir Cicak.

    10 Q. Your date of birth and where you were born?

    11 A. 7th March, 1934, in Slavonska Pozega.

    12 Q. And by ethnicity, you are --

    13 A. Croat.

    14 Q. Where were you educated, laterally, at the

    15 university level?

    16 A. Sarajevo.

    17 Q. In what subject?

    18 A. Legal studies.

    19 Q. Did you leave Sarajevo in 1968 with a diploma

    20 from the law faculty?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Thereafter, where did you work initially?

    23 A. I worked in the town of Zenica all my life,

    24 that is, the central part of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

    25 Q. Did you use your law or did you work in some

  95. 1 other capacity?

    2 A. Only law.

    3 Q. Were you working as a practicing lawyer or

    4 were you working in industry?

    5 A. I could work as an advocate, as a solicitor,

    6 but I nevertheless worked in industry, practicing law

    7 in industry.

    8 Q. Do you have any military training or

    9 experience?

    10 A. No.

    11 Q. Did you, in due course, move from Zenica to

    12 Busovaca?

    13 A. Yes, I did.

    14 Q. In what year?

    15 A. It was between 1976 and 1992.

    16 Q. Leaping ahead to the present time, because

    17 I'm going to ask you to deal in detail with what passed

    18 in between, but leaping ahead to the present time,

    19 what's your present job?

    20 A. At present, I am the head of an institution

    21 for the protection of human rights, operating across

    22 the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina, both in the

    23 Federation and the Republic of Srpska, and it is --

    24 this institution for the protection of human rights is

    25 called Independent, and I'm its director.

  96. 1 Q. What type of employees does your institution

    2 have; what skills do they have?

    3 A. My institution cannot employ any low-skilled

    4 people. We can only employ lawyers, that is,

    5 barristers, and people who are familiar with law and

    6 perform various legal services.

    7 Q. Does your workload include attempts to

    8 recover property that has fallen into other hands as a

    9 result of the war in Bosnia?

    10 A. This is the principal problem which our

    11 institution addresses at present; that is, exclusively

    12 the restitution of property to their original owners.

    13 Q. Let's deal with the matter now to get it out

    14 of the way. Does one of those cases concern a relation

    15 of the defendant Dario Kordic?

    16 A. Yes, it concerns a relative of Mr. Dario

    17 Kordic. It is his brother, Davor, who lives -- or

    18 rather who moved into somebody else's house, and he is

    19 living in the house of Asim Sunulahpasic in Busovaca.

    20 Q. That man having been what in the community?

    21 A. I don't understand the question.

    22 Q. Did that man, Sunulahpasic, have any

    23 particular function in the community or not, before he

    24 lost his house?

    25 A. He had a function. He was one of the eminent

  97. 1 citizens of Busovaca. He left Busovaca, and he lost

    2 both his job and his house.

    3 Q. And his ethnicity was --

    4 A. Bosniak.

    5 Q. For how many years have you been involved in

    6 politics?

    7 A. For a very long time.

    8 Q. Since what age?

    9 A. In the former system, it was natural to begin

    10 very early in so-called youth organisations, and

    11 afterwards one would continue either in organisations

    12 of the Socialist Alliance or the League of Communists.

    13 Q. And were you a member of those organisations,

    14 in general terms?

    15 A. Yes. I was a member of a youth organisation

    16 for a long time, member of the youth organisations, and

    17 later on I normally also became a member of the

    18 Socialist Alliance.

    19 Q. And the Communist Party, were you a member of

    20 that?

    21 A. Yes. Not of my own volition did I enter it.

    22 I was admitted to the League of Communists.

    23 Q. As we're going to hear, you became involved

    24 in politics in Busovaca in and around 1991. Just in

    25 general, throughout your time in politics, what have

  98. 1 your aspirations been for Bosnia-Herzegovina? Have

    2 they been constant, have they changed? Tell us, in

    3 general terms.

    4 A. My whole life, I advocated -- I upheld a

    5 democratic system either of the Yugoslav society as a

    6 whole or, when Bosnia-Herzegovina became an independent

    7 state, for the democratic society in Bosnia and

    8 Herzegovina. However, this struggle, it seems to me,

    9 was to no avail.

    10 Q. What, if any, has been your approach towards

    11 ethnicity in Bosnia-Herzegovina and the possibilities

    12 for dividing the ethnic groups up?

    13 A. Absolutely.

    14 Q. Can you expand on that a little? Have you

    15 been in favour of dividing the ethnic groups up or

    16 not? Explain your position.

    17 A. Absolutely not. But will you tell me, what

    18 period of time do you have in mind?

    19 Q. For the moment, I'm concerned with your

    20 entire approach throughout your life and throughout the

    21 time you've been interested in politics. Have you ever

    22 been interested in dividing up the ethnic groups or

    23 have you taken a different approach at all times?

    24 A. I never had a different attitude. To me,

    25 there were only people who were good or who were bad.

  99. 1 And as for the structure, the ruling structures, they

    2 had a completely different practical life, so that in

    3 the majority of leaderships, whether it be the youth,

    4 or Socialist Alliance, or the League of Communists, one

    5 had Serbs, and then depending on the ethnic group or

    6 people, going downward. For instance, in the Republic

    7 of Croatia, one would have a smaller number of Croats

    8 engaged. In the case of Bosnia-Herzegovina, there

    9 would all be Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks.

    10 In those cases where one had homogenous

    11 ethnic groups, such as, for instance, Montenegro, there

    12 one had Montenegrins engaged, or in the case of

    13 Macedonia, Macedonians were the ones who were mostly

    14 engaged.

    15 So the problem arose in those environments,

    16 in those environments which were multi-ethnic groups of

    17 peoples.

    18 Q. Did you ever have any interest in linking a

    19 uniquely Croat part of Bosnia-Herzegovina to the State

    20 of Croatia?

    21 A. No, absolutely not, and to this day those

    22 areas and the Bosnia-Herzegovina in its entirety has

    23 its natural boundaries. It has geographically very

    24 nice boundaries. In the west, it has the River Una; in

    25 the east is the River Drina; to the north is the River

  100. 1 Sava, and to the south is the Adriatic Sea, so that

    2 geographically speaking, it was predestined to be one

    3 whole. And I believe it will remain one whole of those

    4 people who live in it, who have their residence in it.

    5 Q. Let me turn now to the origins in

    6 Bosnia-Herzegovina of the HDZ and of your involvement

    7 in it.

    8 Where did that party find its original

    9 formation, within Bosnia-Herzegovina or outside?

    10 A. It did not originate in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

    11 it originated outside. But its programme was very

    12 interesting, as it was (sic) the Croatian Community but

    13 Croatian Democratic Community, so the emphasis was on

    14 democracy. Thus it attracted a large number of people,

    15 or rather drew the attention of a large number of

    16 people, and I also was attracted by it, that is, its

    17 democratic approach. The solution of social problems

    18 appealed to me, I mean in the building of a new

    19 society.

    20 Q. Before we turn to the formation of the party

    21 in Busovaca, staying for another question or so with

    22 the formation of the HDZ in the State of Croatia, did

    23 you become aware of Franjo Tudjman's expressed aims for

    24 the party and for Croatia and for Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    25 A. Yes. It was no secret. Mr. Franjo Tudjman's

  101. 1 programme expanded through -- in Croatia and

    2 Bosnia-Herzegovina at great speed. In

    3 Bosnia-Herzegovina, it turned into an enigma of sorts,

    4 because people were not accustomed to a multi-party

    5 life after the Communist regime, whereas in Croatia,

    6 that movement advocated by Mr. Franjo Tudjman met with

    7 very broad support. It was founded on a democratic

    8 basis, and a democratic basis of any programme will

    9 very easily attract citizens after a Communist regime

    10 which lasted for 50 years, and so the liberation, the

    11 emancipation, from the one-party system and all its

    12 constraints.

    13 Q. Were you in sympathy with all of the Tudjman

    14 ideas, as you understood them to be, or not?

    15 A. No, only and exclusively the democratic part

    16 thereof. To be quite frank, I was really enthusiastic

    17 about that, but deep inside, I feared his national

    18 goals because I was afraid it would find a reflection

    19 in a very poor, weak social structure, or the structure

    20 of social forces in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    21 Q. Let us turn to the HDZ in Busovaca. When,

    22 approximately, was it founded and by what sort of

    23 person?

    24 A. The act of establishment itself was not

    25 particularly spectacular. One day we met in the church

  102. 1 of St. Ante in Busovaca. A representative of the HDZ

    2 from Bugojno, Mr. Nikica -- his surname escapes me

    3 right now -- he chaired that meeting. There were about

    4 40 of us, about 40 citizens. It was the first time

    5 that we were to found a party. It was the first

    6 attempt of that kind. It was all very strange to us,

    7 and this process, if I may call it that, of

    8 establishing the HDZ party in Busovaca took about one

    9 hour. We talked amongst ourselves about our future

    10 actions and so on and so forth.

    11 It was -- if I may say so, it was a very

    12 amateurish approach to the founding of a party. That

    13 is, it had nothing to do, but what happens now when

    14 parties are founded, it is much better organised today

    15 than it was at that time.

    16 Q. Turning to the type of people who formed it,

    17 who was the first president, and what was his

    18 occupation, if you can recall?

    19 A. Yes, I believe I recall that it was

    20 Dr. Vjekoslav Barac, a very nice man of integrity, a

    21 very capable man. He was -- what do you call it -- he

    22 was for infectious diseases; I can't remember what the

    23 proper technical term is.

    24 Q. Thank you. That's fine. And were there two

    25 deputy presidents?

  103. 1 A. Yes, Mr. Franc, as far as I know, and he

    2 was a legend -- another physician, and I was about to

    3 say he was a legendary figure in the whole Travnik land

    4 and perhaps even Bosnia-Herzegovina. The second

    5 vice-chairman, rather the third one, was myself. I

    6 don't know -- there was another one.

    7 Q. At that time, was the first defendant, Dario

    8 Kordic, involved in the HDZ at all?

    9 A. In the beginning, at the time of

    10 establishment of the HDZ, Mr. Dario Kordic was not

    11 there. He turned up later. But I do know that he was

    12 in the leadership of the HDZ straight away. If I'm

    13 correct, his first duty or rather his first office was

    14 to be the secretary, I think. At that time, when in

    15 the church -- rather in the churchyard of St. Ante's we

    16 founded the HDZ, Mr. Dario Kordic was not present.

    17 Q. What were his political involvements, if any,

    18 at that time, before the creation of the HDZ?

    19 A. As far as I know, and we spent a great deal

    20 of time together, he left journalism, and for a while I

    21 believe he was a local correspondent for a daily paper

    22 in Sarajevo called Oslobodjenje. After that, I know I

    23 saw him on the premises of the Vatrostalna management,

    24 where I believe he was in charge of general affairs.

    25 Because of that, and because we frequently came to his

  104. 1 office, I think that the manager prohibited visits

    2 there. After that he became secretary of the

    3 secretariat for national defence. And as far as I

    4 know --

    5 Q. I'm so sorry, I'm going to cut you off just

    6 briefly. The question was, what were his political

    7 involvements, and if you could just answer that very

    8 succinctly, I would be grateful.

    9 A. Political commitment, with regard to the

    10 promotion of the democratic system, a democratic

    11 society in Bosnia-Herzegovina, no, he had nothing to do

    12 with that. He merely proceeded to pursue the policy of

    13 the League of Communists of Yugoslavia.

    14 Q. Before we develop through you what happened

    15 in Busovaca, can you just help us with the position of

    16 the party a little in the republic as a whole. Who was

    17 the first republican president of HDZ?

    18 A. If I may, I must expand on this a little, if

    19 the Court permits. I must say something more.

    20 The foundation of the HDZ in

    21 Bosnia-Herzegovina did not happen all that quickly and

    22 smoothly as in the Republic of Croatia. There were

    23 various difficulties, but one of the activists at the

    24 time of the establishment of HDZ in B and H was

    25 Mr. Perinovic, at the time a very active person. On

  105. 1 the basis of the activities throughout

    2 Bosnia-Herzegovina, he also convened at that party --

    3 or rather he convened the conference of all members of

    4 the HDZ on the 16th -- or perhaps the 18th; I think it

    5 was the 18th, August, 1990, in Sarajevo.

    6 It was a big, grandiose gathering of all

    7 Croats from the area that was accessible at that time

    8 of all those who could come to Sarajevo at the time.

    9 But that meeting, that convention, was very confused,

    10 badly organised, and I think that it misfired

    11 completely. It was a complete failure. But

    12 nonetheless, Mr. Perinovic was elected the first

    13 president.

    14 Q. What was his attitude to multi-ethnicity in

    15 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    16 A. Mr. Perinovic believed -- he wanted to

    17 preserve Bosnia-Herzegovina such as it was; that is,

    18 that Bosnia-Herzegovina should not be split up into

    19 ethnic entities, first by groups of peoples and then in

    20 territorial terms. He advocated an integral Bosnia and

    21 Herzegovina where Croats, Serbs, and Bosniaks would all

    22 be equal.

    23 Q. How did his ideas fit with what was being set

    24 out in Zagreb by Franjo Tudjman?

    25 A. Now, this is a little different. Mr. Tudjman

  106. 1 embraced a completely different platform. Mr. Tudjman,

    2 in his ideas as to how the HDZ should develop, he saw

    3 it as a movement, as a worldwide movement of all

    4 Croats; that is, that every Croat, wherever he might

    5 be, should be or rather would have to side, to support

    6 the Croatian Democratic Union of Croatia. At that

    7 time, this idea developed along those lines. That is,

    8 the HDZ was not confined to Croatia alone. It was a

    9 worldwide movement of all Croats, so that Mr. Tudjman

    10 enjoyed major support of what is usually termed as a

    11 diaspora of Croat emigres in other parts of the world,

    12 and what is still in the HDZ, and its programme is that

    13 it is a strong, forceful movement.

    14 Q. Was there something called the Croatian

    15 Spring? Indeed, I think we've already heard of it.

    16 A. That was earlier on. This was an attempt,

    17 like all the other republics tried to acquire at least

    18 a minimum degree of independence in relation to

    19 Belgrade. You know yourselves that the League of

    20 Communists, via Belgrade, covered all the republics in

    21 Yugoslavia, including Croatia. In the end, after an

    22 analysis of the situation in the Republic of Croatia,

    23 we established that there were about 40 per cent Serbs,

    24 or maybe even more, holding senior positions. This was

    25 nonsense, that in the Republic of Croatia, Serbs should

  107. 1 hold executive positions.

    2 Q. What happened so far as that first president,

    3 Perinovic, was concerned? Did he keep his office, or

    4 did he lose it?

    5 A. At the convention already there was a split.

    6 I said that the convention was very poorly organised,

    7 that it was disoriented, and that already at that time

    8 it became evident to all the -- not delegates, not

    9 delegates, all those present at the convention, that

    10 something was going on, and later on this was

    11 confirmed. But already, before that, there were

    12 rumours being spread around in Bosnia-Herzegovina that

    13 Mr. Perinovic was not purebred -- maybe you can find a

    14 better word, the interpreters can find a better word --

    15 that he was not a pure Croat, a thoroughbred Croat.

    16 So Mr. Perinovic -- and also a third factor

    17 contributing to his removal was that after all, he

    18 advocated that the HDZ of Bosnia-Herzegovina should be

    19 a separate organisation in relation to all others.

    20 These three factors placed Mr. Perinovic in a position

    21 that he had to withdraw from the position of president,

    22 and seven months later he was no longer president.

    23 Q. When you say he had to withdraw, what or who

    24 forced him to withdraw?

    25 A. There was pressure, both from domestic and

  108. 1 external factors. When I say "domestic," I have in

    2 mind representatives of the HDZ in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

    3 and when I say "external," I'm thinking of the HDZ of

    4 Croatia.

    5 Q. In the Federation, was the HDZ uniform in its

    6 approach throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina, or were there

    7 discernible camps, geographically based?

    8 A. I don't know how familiar you are, I

    9 apologise to Your Honours, but I must say that

    10 Bosnia-Herzegovina is a rather specific land divided

    11 into three quite clearly distinguishable regions, and

    12 those are Herzegovina, Posavina, and Central Bosnia.

    13 In all these regions, the people living there have a

    14 different mentality, a specific outlook on life. The

    15 Herzegovinians are far stricter in their views, whereas

    16 the people of Posavina, the richest part of

    17 Bosnia-Herzegovina, these are prosperous people with

    18 large estates and high annual earnings, as opposed to

    19 Herzegovina, where those possibilities were limited.

    20 Again, Central Bosnia was known to be inhabited by

    21 good-natured people, cordial people, small landowners,

    22 poor peasants; a level that cannot be considered to be

    23 a high standard of living, not even a medium standard

    24 of living. So that the HDZ of Bosnia-Herzegovina which

    25 was organised in these regions acted in a way

  109. 1 corresponding to the behaviour of the citizens of that

    2 region.

    3 Q. So that, for example, Herzegovina, in your

    4 experience, what was the reaction there towards the

    5 Croatian, Tudjman, platform?

    6 A. As far as Herzegovina is concerned, it was

    7 adopted because Herzegovina is geographically and in

    8 every respect linked to the Republic of Croatia. That

    9 was where the HDZ began to develop in

    10 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I think that they supported the

    11 idea to achieve political unification and then physical

    12 unification as soon as possible with the Republic of

    13 Croatia.

    14 Q. The approach of those in Central Bosnia in

    15 the early stages was what, towards Tudjman's programme?

    16 A. I don't quite understand the question.

    17 Q. So far as Central Bosnia is concerned, was

    18 there an identifiable approach or sense towards the

    19 Tudjman programme there, or not?

    20 A. No, there was absolute confusion there.

    21 Central Bosnia, from times immemorial, if one can put

    22 it that way, Central Bosnia never had intellectuals.

    23 They do not have a social stratum in which

    24 intellectuals would dominate. These were mostly

    25 farmers, poor farmers, who concerned themselves mostly

  110. 1 with land, and for them, the concept of national

    2 emancipation was unknown to them. First of all, they

    3 didn't understand what it meant. Secondly, they didn't

    4 know what national emancipation meant, so that there

    5 were a series of rather ridiculous situations,

    6 depending on how individuals interpreted this national

    7 feeling.

    8 All I can say is that Central Bosnia was

    9 always, both under the former system and today, in the

    10 present day, it was a part of the country that was

    11 always bypassed by all the institutions acting in

    12 Bosnia-Herzegovina ever since the Kingdom of

    13 Yugoslavia, when it was originally formed, to the

    14 present day.

    15 Q. I want you now, please, to help with one or

    16 two individuals --

    17 JUDGE MAY: One moment.

    18 Judge Bennouna.

    19 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Mr. Nice,

    20 to clarify a point for the Court, a statement made by

    21 the witness that Central Bosnia never had

    22 intellectuals. Does the witness wish to say -- yes,

    23 that's what I see here -- doesn't the witness wish to

    24 say, was he referring to the level of education there,

    25 that their educational level was never up to the

  111. 1 university level? Or was he referring to intellectuals

    2 as thinkers? It might be interesting for the Court to

    3 know whether this is related to the level of education

    4 that people had in Central Bosnia. Thank you.

    5 MR. NICE:

    6 Q. You've heard Judge Bennouna's question, which

    7 I'd like you to answer.

    8 A. Yes, I will answer very clearly. Under the

    9 former system, it was difficult even to set up

    10 elementary schools. It was very hard to get as far as

    11 secondary schools, not to mention universities. So

    12 there was no question of universities. It was not

    13 possible to develop an intellectual cadre in Central

    14 Bosnia.

    15 Q. There were -- I'm so sorry.

    16 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, before you go on, you

    17 asked at one stage about the establishment of the HDZ

    18 in Busovaca, and I hope we're going to get back to that

    19 fairly quickly.

    20 MR. NICE: We're coming back to that, yes.

    21 JUDGE MAY: But before the matter passes, you

    22 can help us with a date when the HDZ was established in

    23 Busovaca.

    24 MR. NICE:

    25 Q. Mr. Cicak?

  112. 1 A. Spring, 1990.

    2 Q. Just picking up on Judge Bennouna's question,

    3 it's obvious from the membership of the group that

    4 established the party in Busovaca that there were of

    5 course people of education in the town, but was there

    6 in that town any culture of intellectuals, or any

    7 regular gatherings of intellectuals, in the way that

    8 there might have been in other places?

    9 A. We must be quite clear on two points. The

    10 actual act of foundation of the HDZ of Busovaca was not

    11 carried out by intellectuals, so we do not have any

    12 intellectuals as the founders. A representative from

    13 Bugojno came, he collected 40-odd people, he held a

    14 speech, and that was the day that we registered as the

    15 day of the founding of the HDZ. No intellectuals

    16 attended that meeting except myself.

    17 Q. I wanted to deal with some particular

    18 personalities before we return --

    19 A. Just a moment, please, I haven't quite

    20 finished, because the other part of the question

    21 remained unanswered.

    22 The second part of the question was, how come

    23 that suddenly, when it came to the municipal board of

    24 the HDZ in Busovaca, and generally, the activities of

    25 the HDZ, that Dr. Vjekoslav Barac, Dr. Franc, Dragutin

  113. 1 Zvonimir Cicak, Dario Kordic, and other intellectuals

    2 came to be involved? Now, this is a second problem, or

    3 rather it is the other point which I wish to make.

    4 Mr. Barac was already involved with the HDZ,

    5 but not in the area of Zenica, but rather for the area

    6 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, as he was not from Busovaca,

    7 though he was born there. He was glad to assist in the

    8 organisation of the HDZ in Busovaca. Then the others

    9 joined in, the presidents and vice-presidents.

    10 Q. I wanted to deal with some individuals who

    11 feature in history. A man called Mate Boban: Can you

    12 tell us about him and his involvement in affairs?

    13 A. I don't know whether we have enough time for

    14 me to talk about Mr. Mate Boban.

    15 Q. Give a summary --

    16 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Cicak, let me interrupt you,

    17 please. We do not have a great deal of time, I'm

    18 afraid. Could you be as succinct as you could be, and

    19 summarise what you know about Mr. Boban.

    20 A. So, Boban (sic) was the key figure for the HDZ of

    21 Busovaca.

    22 MR. NICE:

    23 Q. What were his connections outside Busovaca;

    24 for example, to Zagreb?

    25 A. Busovaca had no connections with Zagreb, nor

  114. 1 with the environs. Those things were done by

    2 Mr. Boban, and whatever Mr. Boban did, we put into

    3 effect on the ground. When I say "we," I'm referring

    4 to the municipal board of the HDZ in Busovaca.

    5 Q. Did Mr. Boban say anything about his

    6 connections in Zagreb or the people he met there?

    7 A. Whenever Mr. Boban held meetings with us, he

    8 would always say that he and Mr. Tudjman had come to

    9 such and such a conclusion, and then he conveyed that

    10 to our municipal board, or a part of the board, or

    11 individuals that he may have convened to a meeting on

    12 that day, dependent whether it was a small group of

    13 people or a larger group of people. But what was

    14 interesting was that he always placed the pronoun "I"

    15 before the name of Mr. Tudjman.

    16 Q. The next person I want you to help us with is

    17 a man named Stjepan Kljuic, and again bearing in mind

    18 the Learned Judge's direction to be brief, summarise

    19 the position so far as that man is concerned.

    20 A. Stjepan Kljuic came after Perinovic to be

    21 the president of the HDZ of Bosnia-Herzegovina. After

    22 that, he was elected to the state presidency of

    23 Bosnia-Herzegovina, so that he performed two functions,

    24 that of the president of the HDZ of Bosnia-Herzegovina

    25 and that of member of the presidency of the State of

  115. 1 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    2 Of course, Mr. Kljuic had certain problems

    3 in the State presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina, so that

    4 to a certain extent, he neglected his function as

    5 president of the Croatian Democratic Union, and he had

    6 certain problems there.

    7 Q. Did he follow as president immediately after

    8 Perinovic, or was there somebody else in between?

    9 A. He came immediately after Perinovic. He was

    10 appointed acting president, and then at the convention

    11 in Mostar, his election as president of the HDZ of

    12 Bosnia-Herzegovina was confirmed.

    13 Q. And what was his attitude towards a

    14 multi-ethnic Bosnia-Herzegovina or to the possibility

    15 of splitting the state up; what was his attitude?

    16 A. No, absolutely his position, too, was that

    17 Bosnia-Herzegovina had to be united, inhabited by

    18 Croats, Serbs and Bosniaks and that there was

    19 absolutely no room for any manipulation.

    20 Q. Can we now then turn to the development of

    21 the party in Busovaca? There may be some general

    22 topics to which I will return later, if I haven't

    23 integrated them into the questions I ask you.

    24 Let's turn back to Busovaca, itself, and to

    25 the role and function of the first defendant in it.

  116. 1 Before we turn to the first defendant,

    2 himself, did you know or get to know his parents?

    3 A. Yes, indeed. Mr. Pero, Mr. Dario Kordic's

    4 father, was a highly-specialised veterinarian surgeon.

    5 His mother, Mr. Dario Kordic's mother, was Rozika. She

    6 was a pediatrician, again a highly-qualified specialist

    7 for child medicine. I think she was the most respected

    8 person in the region.

    9 Q. Did either of those people, the parents, play

    10 any part in the first defendant's involvement in or

    11 rise within the HDZ?

    12 A. I think that Mr. Pero Kordic, Dario Kordic's

    13 father, therefore, did play a part. And this astounded

    14 me, knowing Mr. Pero Kordic, when at a certain point in

    15 time at a luncheon in the church prepared by the parish

    16 priest of the Franciscan Church, St. Ante, and he asked

    17 Mr. Boras to try, in the HDZ, to do something for his

    18 son, Dario, in the sense of promotion in the

    19 hierarchy. And he also appealed to Mr. Boras with the

    20 same request.

    21 Mr. Boras at the time didn't know Mr. Dario

    22 Kordic, but he was a good friend of his father's,

    23 Dr. Pero, Pero Kordic.

    24 Q. So far as you're aware, did Mr. Boris respond

    25 to that request or not?

  117. 1 A. I doubt that Mr. Boris could do anything,

    2 because, anyway, it was not necessary for him to do

    3 anything for Mr. Dario Kordic, since at the time

    4 Mr. Boban appeared on the scene. And after that, it

    5 was not necessary for anyone to do anything.

    6 Q. Because?

    7 A. Because the influence of Mr. Boban by far

    8 exceeded that of Mr. Boris. And Mr. Boris was

    9 gradually disappearing from the political stage,

    10 whereas climbing on that stage with full force was

    11 Mr. Mate Boban.

    12 Q. What was the next development of Dario Kordic

    13 in the party? What was the next thing that happened

    14 locally? Did he achieve office, or what happened?

    15 A. The HDZ of Busovaca never had an office for

    16 the president, and Mr. Dario Kordic used the office of

    17 the Secretariat of National Defence in the

    18 municipality, therefore within the state administration

    19 of Busovaca, and he became president of the HDZ of the

    20 Busovaca municipality.

    21 Q. How did that come about, that he became

    22 president?

    23 A. Mr. Boras, at the elections, became a member

    24 of parliament, and it was not possible for him, at the

    25 same time, to be a member of parliament of

  118. 1 Bosnia-Herzegovina and at the same time to be president

    2 of the municipality board of the HDZ of Busovaca. And

    3 then Mr. Kordic was proposed to take over that duty.

    4 Q. Do you remember by whom he was proposed?

    5 A. I really don't know.

    6 Q. Did you support it, oppose it, were you

    7 neutral, or can't you recall?

    8 A. I supported it.

    9 Q. And at that time, was the defendant

    10 associated with any group of other people?

    11 A. Mr. Kordic always had a certain animosity

    12 towards all people coming outside of Busovaca, and this

    13 applied to me as well, as his deputy president. And he

    14 had this animosity towards me, as he did towards Dr.

    15 Boras and others, because we had come from the town of

    16 Zenica. Mr. Kordic, together with his associates,

    17 though he was not born in Busovaca, but he considered

    18 himself to be a native, whereas these other people were

    19 born in Busovaca, so he considered them to have much

    20 greater priority than those of us who had come from

    21 elsewhere.

    22 Q. Who were in this group?

    23 A. The main support for him was always Mr. Anto

    24 Sliskovic, his brother, Mr. Franjo Sliskovic, then

    25 Mr. Igor Prusac, Mr. Anto Stipic, Mr. Florijan

  119. 1 Glavocevic and the others. I don't know if it's

    2 necessary for me to enumerate them all.

    3 Q. What sort of people were these, what sort of

    4 jobs did they do?

    5 A. Various jobs, but they were of medium

    6 skills --

    7 THE INTERPRETER: Let the interpreter find

    8 the proper term for this. "Secondary school education."

    9 A. -- except for Florijan Glavocevic, who was a

    10 forester. In our country, these are usually

    11 administrative clerks who have these secondary skills

    12 or secondary school qualifications.

    13 Q. Did Dario Kordic enjoy any security by reason

    14 of this group of people or otherwise?

    15 A. He was the absolute master of these people.

    16 These men protected him. But whatever he said, they

    17 carried out without any question.

    18 Q. Was there any training in respect of these

    19 men, or any of them, that you were aware of?

    20 A. I don't know in what sense you mean

    21 "training." Civilian or military?

    22 Q. Military.

    23 A. Military training. I see. When the danger

    24 threatened over Yugoslavia, when Slovenia and Croatia

    25 had been attacked without any reason, a shock group was

  120. 1 formed in Busovaca, headed by Anto and Franjo

    2 Sliskovic. This was a group that trained using weapons

    3 that were smuggled into Bosnia and Busovaca illegally.

    4 This training ground was in the mountains near

    5 Busovaca. They trained with the most sophisticated

    6 weapons, which they had never in their lives come

    7 across, and I believe that was the first time they saw

    8 them. And this was one part of the training that they

    9 had in Busovaca.

    10 Q. Was there any other part of training that you

    11 can help us with?

    12 A. I could just say, actually, a part of

    13 training that does not apply to Busovaca alone. In

    14 Herzegovina, there was a military unit of the HOS,

    15 headed by Blaz Kraljevic. This was a

    16 highly-sophisticated unit, very well organised, and

    17 then all the municipal HDZ organisations that wanted to

    18 have professionally-trained military men would send

    19 some of their young men to be trained there by Mr. Blaz

    20 Kraljevic. In addition, they would be given a golden

    21 badge, showing that they had been trained in his

    22 training centre in Herzegovina. I'm not quite sure

    23 where it was situated, but I think it was somewhere

    24 around Capljina, so that young men from Busovaca went

    25 to that centre there.

  121. 1 Q. Those men who provided security for Kordic,

    2 did they wear any distinctive clothing at any stage or

    3 not?

    4 A. If they were performing ordinary civil

    5 duties, then they did not wear any particular

    6 markings. But if they were out on an action or where

    7 Mr. Kordic would send them, then they would be wearing

    8 the then military clothes, today they are called

    9 camouflage uniforms, with modern weapons.

    10 Q. Once he had been appointed within the party,

    11 did you meet him from time to time or regularly? What

    12 was the position?

    13 A. I don't understand the question.

    14 Q. Once Kordic had become a member of the party

    15 and, indeed, an officer of the party, he being a person

    16 you had never known before, did you now meet him

    17 regularly?

    18 A. We established contact very quickly, and

    19 there was no need for it, because we met quite often,

    20 very often.

    21 Q. Did he express any views as to where the HDZ

    22 should be going; for example, any views about the

    23 approach coming from Tudjman, in Zagreb, or not?

    24 A. We talked about that very often, and his view

    25 was that one should side with the HDZ of the Republic

  122. 1 of Croatia, that we should be part of the movement

    2 promoted by Mr. Tudjman; that is, all Croats in the

    3 HDZ, wherever they are.

    4 Q. Did you agree with that view?

    5 A. No, I did not, because I always thought

    6 Bosnia-Herzegovina should stay between the Una, the

    7 Drina, the Sava, and the sea and that we should have an

    8 independent HDZ organisation. And either Mr. Kordic,

    9 or Mr. Kljuic, or any other gentleman could be in the

    10 lead of that organisation, but it should be an

    11 independent HDZ organisation of the Bosnia-Herzegovina

    12 and in no way become a part of the HDZ of Croatia.

    13 Q. Did you make your position clear to Kordic?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. One other man I want your help with at the

    16 moment; Kostroman. Tell us about him, please. Did you

    17 know him before the HDZ or not?

    18 A. I don't remember if I knew him before. It is

    19 a man who even when you meet him, you don't remember

    20 him for long. But during the HDZ, I did, indeed, come

    21 to know him very well. Should I go on?

    22 Q. What views did he hold?

    23 A. Quite opposite. To this day, when I start to

    24 think about that, I cannot understand what were his

    25 views and what did he want, really, with the HDZ and

  123. 1 B and H, because it was the first time in history that

    2 a technical secretary, that is, an administrative

    3 secretary, not the Secretary-General, that such

    4 secretary works against his party and its president,

    5 and the president was Mr. Kljuic. And he completely

    6 turned about and worked with Mr. Boban, who absolutely

    7 had no right to work with Mr. Kostroman. So Kostroman

    8 is what people would say is a person without a

    9 personality, who has inflicted a great deal on the

    10 Croat people in Bosnia-Herzegovina and, I believe, also

    11 of the Croat people in the Republic of Croatia as well.

    12 Q. So to summarise, you, in your locality, and

    13 Kljuic outside, favoured a multi-ethnic

    14 Bosnia-Herzegovina, but --

    15 A. Absolutely.

    16 Q. -- Dario Kordic, Mate Boban, who had

    17 connections to Zagreb, favoured a different conclusion?

    18 A. Absolutely.

    19 Q. In summary, we'll look at documents a little

    20 later, how did things unfold, and can you now perhaps

    21 give the Court some dates or some approximate dates?

    22 If you can summarise the position, and then we'll look

    23 at the documents later.

    24 A. Unfolding of what?

    25 Q. Yes. How did events unfold? What, for

  124. 1 example, ultimately happened to Mr. Kljuic?

    2 A. Mr. Kostroman was -- wait now. Now, of

    3 course, you -- well, you have to know some things. No,

    4 no. The main office of Mr. Kljuic and

    5 Secretary-General Mr. Markesic was separated --

    6 Q. We can come back to this if it's necessary,

    7 but in summary, what happened to Mr. Kljuic? Did he

    8 stay in office or did he lose office?

    9 A. No, Mr. Kljuic was eliminated gradually from

    10 the office of the president of HDZ.

    11 Q. To be replaced by --

    12 A. By the professor -- Dr. Miljenko Brkic came

    13 to succeed him, and I don't really know how he turned

    14 up in that group. And after him was Mr. Mate Boban.

    15 Q. At the local party, and we're going to deal

    16 with the detail of this later, but at the local party,

    17 were you able to stay a member of the party, holding

    18 the views you did, or not?

    19 A. With great difficulty, with great

    20 difficulty.

    21 MR. NICE: Give me a minute, please. Your

    22 Honour, I think it might be convenient now to get the

    23 witness to deal with some documents which will, I

    24 think, help the Court. These documents were all in the

    25 core bundle, and indeed many of them were referred to

  125. 1 in the opening. I've got them all fresh for the Court

    2 now. I don't know what the Court wants to do with its

    3 core bundle, but it's probably better if I provide,

    4 certainly at this stage, exhibits full and fresh, and

    5 the Court can make its own decisions in due course.

    6 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

    7 MR. NICE: But I'll read out the pages, in

    8 case any of my learned friends are following in the way

    9 that the Registry ordered documents.

    10 So we'll go first, please, to Z7, Registry

    11 page 5818, and if this can be provided to the Court

    12 and, in its BCS version, to the witness.

    13 If the usher could stay by the ELMO,

    14 detaching the English version from the BSC version in

    15 order to display the paragraphs, and there won't be

    16 very many of them, for a document that I'll ask the

    17 witness to deal with.

    18 Q. Mr. Cicak, what we have here is a document

    19 headed "The HDZ of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Travnik Region,"

    20 dated the 21st of July, page 1 being an agenda. Before

    21 we turn from the agenda, we can see that it says its

    22 for the leaders of all seven municipalities of the

    23 Travnik region. It sets out those regions, and it sets

    24 out a list of people attending, which does not include

    25 you.

  126. 1 So the first point is this: Did you attend

    2 meetings of the leaders of the municipalities of the

    3 Travnik region or not, or was it sometimes? Help us,

    4 please.

    5 A. I did attend most of the meetings. But I

    6 must explain one thing to the Court, that these

    7 original agendas which were typewritten, they are not

    8 the original agendas, they are copies, they are

    9 transcripts, but I don't know of what, because this is

    10 Mr. Kostroman, at his own discretion, adopted and wrote

    11 texts, so that not one text was adopted ever at any one

    12 meeting of the HDZ. It could have been discussed in

    13 different ways, but Mr. Kostroman, in his office, would

    14 reword it to his liking, and such documents were never

    15 adopted.

    16 What I'm trying to say is that we do not have

    17 handwritten minutes, and these minutes are not signed,

    18 even, apart from Kostroman, who wrote them, so that --

    19 Q. Do you know, one way or another, whether you

    20 definitely attended the meeting on the 21st --

    21 A. I think I was present at that meeting. I

    22 know about it.

    23 Q. We now turn to the second sheet in the

    24 English version. There is something headed

    25 "Conclusions," of which paragraph 4 in the English

  127. 1 reads:

    2 "HDZ BiH president, Stjepan Kljuic, is

    3 ordered to call an urgent session of the HDZ BiH main

    4 board on Wednesday, the 24th of July, 1991, because of

    5 the new situation. It is necessary to invite the

    6 leaders of the HDZ from Zagreb to attend the session."

    7 First, do you recall any meeting where such a

    8 decision, that is, the decision to call the president

    9 of the party to -- sorry, where the decision is

    10 expressed to be an instruction to the party's president

    11 to call a session of the main board, do you recall

    12 being present at any meeting where that decision was

    13 made?

    14 A. Yes. We asked Mr. Kljuic to attend our

    15 meetings on various occasions, on various occasions,

    16 but this is nonsense, because a regional community can

    17 never order the president or the presidency of the HDZ

    18 to do something. That is, somebody who is inferior

    19 cannot order his superior to do something. That is

    20 sheer nonsense, and we never had conclusions worded as

    21 that.

    22 It is quite possibly that Mr. Kljuic was

    23 criticised at the time and told that he should more

    24 frequently attend regional committees and more

    25 frequently talk about the situation. But it could

  128. 1 never happen, nor could one ever write or even say in

    2 the discussion that Mr. President Stjepan Kljuic is

    3 ordered to do this or that. I mean it simply did not

    4 happen. So this is pure --

    5 Q. Would you now please turn to conclusion

    6 number 6, which is a rather longer paragraph and

    7 reads:

    8 "The Croatia Democratic Union of

    9 Bosnia-Herzegovina must take a clear position with

    10 regard to the latest political events, namely,

    11 aggression against Slovenia, Croatia, and the silent

    12 occupation of parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina; the Federal

    13 Presidency's decision to withdraw the troops of the

    14 so-called JNA from Slovenia and their deployment in

    15 Bosnia-Herzegovina and other parts of the rump

    16 Yugoslavia; the status of Bosnia-Herzegovina; the

    17 relations with other parties; a clear stand if the SDA

    18 decides to remain within the rump Yugoslavia or,

    19 rather, Serboslavia; about the statement made by the

    20 BiH Presidency, Alija Izetbegovic, that he requires the

    21 representatives of Bosnia-Herzegovina to attend a

    22 conference of Islamic countries, even without previous

    23 consent of the Presidency; and other topical issues."

    24 I read the whole text, but I really want your

    25 comment on the last passage about Alija Izetbegovic.

  129. 1 Do you recall anything being said about that?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. What was said?

    4 A. Well, precisely as this said. Perhaps it was

    5 more expanded.

    6 Mr. Izetbegovic embraced the practice, and I

    7 believe he does it to this day, that all that he does

    8 or all decisions that he takes, he does so personally.

    9 He never consults a wider circle of people, one man

    10 perhaps and nobody else, and this was one such

    11 instance.

    12 But again, it is nonsense that Croat

    13 representatives, members of the presidency, do not

    14 bring any pressure to bear on Mr. Izetbegovic to change

    15 those decisions regarding the so-called rump Yugoslavia

    16 or attendance at a conference of Islamic countries.

    17 Q. Then, as you've already explained, in the

    18 original version that you hold, it's typed, and over

    19 the typed name of "Kostroman," there is some initials

    20 or signature, but over the name of "Dario Kordic,"

    21 "Chairman," or -- in fact, perhaps I would ask you to

    22 read out the title under Dario Kordic's name and then

    23 the interpreters can tell us what it is. What's the

    24 title under Dario Kordic's name? Is that "President"?

    25 A. No, no, it is "Chairman," chairman of the

  130. 1 meeting.

    2 Q. But there is, on the version you have, no

    3 signature over that name?

    4 A. No. Well, this is Kostroman's -- this was

    5 written by Mr. Kostroman.

    6 Q. The next exhibit, please, is Z8. Registry

    7 page number 5814 in the BCS original and English.

    8 Thank you.

    9 May the witness have the -- is this a

    10 document headed "The Croatian Democratic Union of

    11 Bosnia and Herzegovina? It's dated the 30th of July,

    12 1991 --

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. -- for a meeting in Vitez, with an agenda set

    15 out. And again does your name not appear in the list

    16 of those attending?

    17 A. No. I did not attend that meeting. It was

    18 attended by the leaders of the municipal boards of the

    19 HDZ, and Mr. Anto Valenta chaired the meeting.

    20 Q. Can you tell us something, please, about Anto

    21 Valenta? What was his role, what was his position on

    22 political matters? Again, very briefly.

    23 A. Very briefly, he was a great supporter of the

    24 foundation of the Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna.

    25 In body and spirit, he dedicated himself to the

  131. 1 realisation of that idea. By occupation he's a

    2 teacher. He wrote a book, which I consider to be

    3 stupid, entitled "Humane Resettlement." Any kind of

    4 resettlement cannot be humane, but he wrote such a

    5 book, entitled "Humane Resettlement," meaning that in

    6 Bosnia-Herzegovina, where there are minority groups and

    7 there are majorities in another area, they should be

    8 unified, and the same should apply to all three ethnic

    9 groups: That is, the Muslims, Serbs, and Croats.

    10 Q. He wrote such a book. What views did he

    11 espouse in meetings or any other political activities

    12 at the time?

    13 A. At first he was a moderate, a moderate member

    14 of the HDZ. Just before the war, or rather before the

    15 outbreak of the conflict between the Bosniaks and the

    16 Muslims, he was very extreme, and when I met him since,

    17 I felt as if he was not a living person any more.

    18 Q. Did he express any views on the possibility

    19 of Muslims and Croats living together in the same

    20 territory?

    21 A. No. No.

    22 Q. Would you turn, please, to the second sheet

    23 of the original, as we turn to the second sheet of the

    24 English version, and at the foot of the English

    25 page -- I'm sorry, I think it's probably the top of

  132. 1 the third sheet in the original -- does this appear:

    2 "Because of its geographic position and because it is

    3 a centre of the district, municipal HDZ board in

    4 Busovaca is appointed headquarters of the Travnik

    5 regional community. Dario Kordic is appointed

    6 coordinator of the regional community and in the future

    7 will call and chair the meetings."

    8 Was that decision made?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. Were you aware in advance that it was being

    11 considered and made, or not?

    12 A. I didn't know in advance that such a decision

    13 was being considered, but all of us in Busovaca were

    14 surprised by that decision, which shows that

    15 Mr. Kordic, outside the municipal board of the HDZ, was

    16 climbing very quickly in the hierarchy of the HDZ. It

    17 is inconceivable that a former president who headed the

    18 regional community of Travnik, that is Professor Martin

    19 Udovicic, should leave the leadership of the regional

    20 community and its movement to Busovaca. After all,

    21 it's called the Travnik regional community, and it is

    22 being moved 20 or 30 kilometres southwards to the

    23 village of Busovaca.

    24 Furthermore, it wasn't clear to us how

    25 Mr. Kordic could have so quickly climbed to the

  133. 1 position of coordinator of all the communities in the

    2 region. So this is indicative of another trend in

    3 Mr. Kordic's career.

    4 Q. Staying with this document, going back up the

    5 document to the beginning of Item 3, was this set out

    6 as one of the conclusions? "Support is given to the

    7 HDZ initiative to set up a new Croatian Government

    8 which is to consist of Croatian experts regardless of

    9 their political orientation if their beliefs are not in

    10 opposition with the common interests of the Croatian

    11 people."

    12 Were you aware of that decision?

    13 A. Yes, very well aware of it, and it was

    14 widespread and very popular among the public, it being

    15 said that this would be something very positive.

    16 However, I was absolutely against it, because it meant

    17 the complete division of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the

    18 inability for it to function in the territory of

    19 Bosnia-Herzegovina, because if each community had its

    20 own governments and its own logistics, then all the

    21 bodies of Bosnia-Herzegovina would be paralysed. So

    22 this idea on the formation of a Croatian government was

    23 in existence among HDZ members, but I think that it

    24 never found supporters.

    25 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, we'll go on till 10

  134. 1 past 4.00.

    2 MR. NICE: Thank you.

    3 Q. We know you weren't present at this

    4 particular meeting, but that you were present at

    5 another, and we're going to see others. Your

    6 opposition to these ideas, did you express your

    7 opposition when you had an opportunity do so?

    8 A. All the ideas that were not close to mine, I

    9 clearly expressed my disagreement with such ideas.

    10 Whether people like that or not, I don't know, but

    11 always, at all meetings, I said loud and clear that I

    12 did not agree with certain ideas leading towards the

    13 division of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the formation of ethnic

    14 ghettos, et cetera, et cetera. As Mr. Kordic said on

    15 one occasion, I was opposed.

    16 Q. I'm sorry, what was that --

    17 A. You keep interrupting me.

    18 Q. I'm sorry. Mr. Kordic said what? If you

    19 could just complete that answer: As Mr. Kordic said on

    20 one occasion ... ?

    21 A. Wrote what he said on many occasions, but in

    22 a rather charming article entitled "The Small Judas" --

    23 Q. We're going to come to that later, and I'll

    24 deal with it in its correct position.

    25 A. Probably I've shrunk, so I look like a little

  135. 1 Judas now.

    2 Q. But the question I want you to deal with at

    3 this stage is this: You've had an opportunity to look

    4 at -- and we're going to take the Court through

    5 several -- you've had an opportunity to look through a

    6 number of minutes of meetings. Is there ever, in the

    7 minutes you've been able to read, a setting-out of your

    8 views which were contrary to the views of the defendant

    9 Kordic?

    10 A. Never. Views that were contrary to the

    11 policy of the HDZ were never entered in the minutes.

    12 Never.

    13 Q. Next exhibit, then, please, is 11, registry

    14 page 5811, the first page of which shows this is from

    15 the -- or of the Croatian Democratic Community of

    16 Bosnia and Herzegovina, dated the 13th of August of

    17 1991, reflecting a third session held in Busovaca on

    18 the 13th of August, same day.

    19 In this document, under "Agenda," you are

    20 shown as present, beside "Busovaca" and immediately

    21 after the name "Dario Kordic." And we see, if we turn

    22 over to the second sheet, and of the English version,

    23 about five lines down, that the session was also

    24 attended by Mr. Mate Boban, vice-president of HDZ-BiH,

    25 and sets out what the other officers were -- who the

  136. 1 other officers were and what they did.

    2 Can we go straight, please, to paragraph 3 of

    3 the decisions, which reads in English as follows: "The

    4 behaviour of Stjepan Kljuic, president of the HDZ BiH,

    5 while conducting the session of the HDZ BiH main board

    6 on 6 August 1991, is judged as unbefitting and

    7 unacceptable. He skilfully managed to avert discussion

    8 on the Decisions at the Travnik Regional Community,

    9 although his attention was several times directed to

    10 the material on hand and the agenda adopted."

    11 That's set out as a conclusion. Do you

    12 remember that matter being raised and discussed, or

    13 not?

    14 A. It was a customary issue, because

    15 Mr. Kljuic, due to his other engagements in the state

    16 presidency, did not appear in the field, or rather did

    17 very rarely. However, this is a document that shows

    18 how the position of the president of a party is being

    19 undermined, in this case, Mr. Kljuic, as the president

    20 of the HDZ of BiH. No regional communities, no

    21 meetings in Busovaca, Travnik, or anywhere else, could

    22 give orders or assess the behaviour of a party

    23 president, the president of a legal party in

    24 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Only his assembly may do that, his

    25 presidency, his secretariat, and other such bodies. No

  137. 1 one has the right to interfere in the affairs of the

    2 president, Mr. Kljuic, and this was nonsense that was

    3 repeated time and time again, but which tells us that

    4 Mr. Kordic and Mr. Kostroman and Mr. Boban were

    5 persistently working on the separation of Mr. Kljuic

    6 from his main base, his supporters in HDZ, for them to

    7 take over and to leave Kljuic in Sarajevo.

    8 Q. I'll interrupt you there, please.

    9 A. You keep interrupting me.

    10 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

    11 MR. SAYERS: Your Honour, if I may, I don't

    12 want to interrupt my opposition's smooth flow of

    13 cross-examination, but that political diatribe was

    14 absolutely nonresponsive to the question asked. He

    15 proceeded to elaborate into an expression of his own

    16 political views, and I think that, with all due

    17 respect, the witness should be asked to answer the

    18 question a little bit more succinctly and directly

    19 without giving vent to his own political views. Thank

    20 you.

    21 JUDGE MAY: Well, I don't agree with that

    22 analysis, necessarily. It seems to me the witness was

    23 asked an opinion about a political matter, and

    24 inevitably he is going to answer in a political way.

    25 But perhaps, Mr. Nice, you could get to the

  138. 1 point.

    2 MR. NICE: It's a question of judging when to

    3 jump in and cut off. It's not that easy.

    4 Q. But I want to take you, please, Mr. Cicak, to

    5 another sheet which is part of the same exhibit, which

    6 we have in the English starting at the second -- I'm

    7 sorry, I beg your pardon, the third sheet in English --

    8 and it's a letter of the same date, the 13th of August,

    9 1991, and then it goes over, I think, to subparagraph

    10 7. It's a slightly confusing exhibit, but nevertheless

    11 it's part of what appears to be a letter of the same

    12 date. It begins -- do you have paragraph 7,

    13 Mr. Cicak? Something that begins with

    14 letters "d," "e," "f," "g," "h," "i," and then goes

    15 "5," "6," and "7"? Do you find that?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. And does paragraph 7 read --

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. -- "The Regional Community boards are

    20 instructed -- and other boards are encouraged -- to

    21 make contact with Mate BOBAN in order to familiarise

    22 themselves with the superior level of organisation in

    23 certain Herzegovinian municipality boards and to

    24 exchange useful information in the new situation."

    25 Was this the first time that Mr. Boban had

  139. 1 appeared at a meeting in Busovaca, or had he been at

    2 earlier meetings?

    3 A. Mr. Boban did not appear this time for the

    4 first time. He had appeared several times. This is an

    5 accurate reading of the conclusion adopted. Since I am

    6 not allowed to speak politically, I will answer your

    7 questions as you've put them to me. This is Number 7,

    8 yes, and that is what is stated there, yes.

    9 Q. Can you remember whose proposal it was, or if

    10 more than one person, which number of people's proposal

    11 it was, that there should be contact with Mate Boban

    12 for these purposes?

    13 A. I don't know, but I think it was Mr. Martin

    14 Udovicic.

    15 Q. Then finally, going back up the document --

    16 A. As far as I can recollect, if my memory is

    17 right.

    18 Q. Thank you. Going back up the document to the

    19 first of the decisions, Number 1 on the decisions, on

    20 the second sheet in English, decision number 1

    21 reads: "The Travnik Regional Community of the HDZ BiH

    22 continues to uphold its decisions of 21 and 30 July

    23 1991 and requests each member of the Presidency of the

    24 HDZ BiH to state his or her attitude toward each of the

    25 said Decisions as well as toward each of the Decisions

  140. 1 reached at today's session."

    2 First, were you a member of the relevant

    3 presidency concerned -- that is, the presidency of the

    4 HDZ BiH -- or not?

    5 A. I was never a member of the presidency of the

    6 HDZ of Bosnia-Herzegovina, because that is the highest

    7 level in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    8 Q. Nevertheless, was this decision made and

    9 formulated --

    10 A. Something must be wrong here. I can't find

    11 the text, I'm afraid.

    12 Q. Sorry. Decision number 1, and it's probably

    13 on the last sheet.

    14 A. I see. That's something quite different.

    15 Q. If you can't find it and if the usher hands

    16 me the papers, I'll find it for you. Have you found

    17 it?

    18 I'll read it again and see if you agree with

    19 the translation: "The Travnik Regional Community of

    20 the HDZ BiH continues to uphold its decisions of 21 and

    21 30 July and requests each member of the Presidency of

    22 the HDZ BiH to state his or her attitude toward each of

    23 the said Decisions as well as toward each of the

    24 Decisions reached at today's session."

    25 Now, was that discussed at that meeting?

  141. 1 A. Not in this way. May I comment? May I be

    2 allowed, Your Honours, to say a few words?

    3 Q. Yes.

    4 A. It is impossible, I repeat again, for a small

    5 community of a small town to request from Sarajevo that

    6 members of the presidency should express their

    7 positions. That is just impossible, absolutely

    8 impossible, and that was not discussed. What we did

    9 discuss was that members of the presidency need to take

    10 a stand as to how they would behave in the future in

    11 Bosnia-Herzegovina, but it is not possible to demand

    12 from a member of the presidency of the HDZ of Bosnia

    13 and Herzegovina.

    14 Q. Thank you.

    15 A. That is my first point.

    16 MR. NICE: He has a second point.

    17 JUDGE MAY: Yes, if you could tell us it

    18 quickly, please.

    19 A. If the members of the presidency of

    20 Bosnia-Herzegovina don't do that, and they come from

    21 all over Bosnia-Herzegovina, if they fail to do that --

    22 that is, to express their personal views on the events

    23 -- that will be interpreted as being tendentious, and

    24 that is again nonsense.

    25 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, is that a convenient

  142. 1 moment?

    2 MR. NICE: Yes. The next exhibit is a short

    3 one, but it can be taken tomorrow morning as easily as

    4 this afternoon.

    5 JUDGE MAY: How much more do you have in

    6 chief?

    7 MR. NICE: Producing the exhibits -- which

    8 once done, of course, is done for good -- is likely to

    9 take at least another 40 minutes, and then there's

    10 evidence of fact. So it's at least half the morning

    11 and possibly most of the morning.

    12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Cicak, would you be back,

    13 please, tomorrow morning at 9.45. Could you remember,

    14 please, not to speak to anybody about your evidence

    15 while you're giving it, and that includes speaking to

    16 members of the Office of the Prosecutor about it.

    17 Thank you very much. 9.45, then, tomorrow

    18 morning.

    19 THE WITNESS: May I reply? May I?

    20 JUDGE MAY: There's no need.

    21 THE WITNESS: Thank you for making it at

    22 9.45. Otherwise it's too early for me to get up.

    23 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

    24 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

    25 4:10 p.m., to be reconvened on

  143. 1 Friday, the 23rd day of April, 1999,

    2 at 9.45 a.m.