1 Thursday, 29th April, 1999
2 (Open session)
3 (The accused entered court)
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.45 a.m.
5 THE REGISTRAR: (In French) Case number
6 IT-95-14/2-T, the Prosecutor versus Dario Kordic and
7 Mario Cerkez.
8 JUDGE MAY: We don't seem to be getting any
9 English translation, but, Mr. Nice, if you would like
10 to start?
11 MR. NICE: I expect it will come.
12 WITNESS: EDIB ZLOTRG (Resumed)
13 Examined by Mr. Nice:
14 [Witness answers through interpreter]
15 Q. Mr. Zlotrg, just a few outstanding matters
16 for one other occasion you can tell us about at some
17 stage, and you may have to help us with the date,
18 involving a cafe and some HVO soldiers, when you were
19 at the cafe in the course of work?
20 A. Yes. I think this was on the 18th of May,
21 1992. As I was going back from work, I noticed some
22 members of the reserve police force in front of a cafe
23 that was owned by Gojko Cickovic. I walked up to my
24 colleague and asked him whether he needed any help, and
25 I wanted to ask him what it was all about. He said
1 that no help was needed and that I should leave.
2 From there, I went to my brother's, that is
3 to say, my brother who was killed on the 16th of April,
4 I went to his apartment. After some time, members of
5 the HVO rang the doorbell at my brother's apartment.
6 My brother and I went out, and we saw Mr. Mario Cerkez
7 there accompanied by three soldiers of the Croatian
8 Defence Council. They were armed with automatic
9 rifles. One of them had a machine gun, and he pointed
10 it at my stomach. I moved the barrel away and I asked
11 Mario what all of this was supposed to mean. "I'm a
12 member of the police force, and it is I and my
13 colleagues who can come to somebody's door, not members
14 of the Croatian Defence Council." I also draw his
15 attention to the fact that he shouldn't do that any
16 more. He said, approximately, that he would come to
17 the door whenever he wanted to and, if necessary, he
18 would bring a company of members of the Croatian
19 Defence Council and that nobody could prevent him from
20 doing so.
21 He just told me not to talk to members of the
22 Croatian Defence Council any more, and I told him that
23 this was a policeman who should not be under his
24 command. However -- well, this is the way I understood
25 him, that I had nothing to talk to Croats about.
1 Later on I found out that a group from the
2 reserve police force from the reserve police station
3 that was in Bila and which was commanded by Ivan
4 Budimir and their zone of responsibility was
5 supposed -- or, rather, they were supposed to protect
6 law and order in the villages around Stara Bila in
7 keeping with the set-up of the Vitez police station,
8 that is to say, Mosunj, Veliki Mosunj, Sadovace,
9 Grbavica and that part; they had nothing to do in
10 town. However, Ivan Budimir gave these people as
11 assistants to Mario Cerkez. On that occasion, they
12 expelled Dragan Cickovic who was running that cafe, and
13 they simply took the cafe for the needs of the Croatian
14 Defence Council.
15 Dragan later told me that Mario had told him
16 that the cafe was being taken away for the needs of the
17 Croatian Defence Council, that is to say, for the
18 families of the members from Mosunj who were killed.
19 They did not make an inventory of all the goods that
20 were in the cafe on that occasion nor did they issue
21 any kind of certificate. They simply ordered Dragan to
22 leave the premises, and they handed this establishment
23 to Tomic Zoka, I think his name was, and he was wearing
24 civilian clothes.
25 Q. Did that cafe then remain in the possession
1 of a particular group or party thereafter?
2 A. After that, in the cafe, members of the
3 Croatian Defence Council in uniform would meet at the
4 cafe, and as far as I know, until the conflict broke
5 out, it was owned by the Croatian Defence Council.
6 Q. Thank you very much. Was that the only
7 example of Croat properties being -- I beg your
8 pardon -- Muslim properties being occupied by Croats,
9 or were there others?
10 A. That is not the only example.
11 Q. What sort of number of others were there, to
12 your knowledge?
13 A. I think that when I was presenting this
14 general overview and when I mentioned that they were
15 taking our vehicles away, they mostly blew up cafes
16 rather than taking them away, and after all, this cafe
17 that they took was not owned by a Muslim but it was
18 owned by a Serb. I talked about it just now.
19 Q. At the end of the time, in 1993, how many
20 Muslims remained in Vitez then, if you can express it
21 in any terms or in percentage terms?
22 A. When I fled from Vitez on the 16th of May, I
23 think that 50 or 60 per cent remained in Vitez;
24 however, by the end of 1993, I believe that there
25 weren't even 10 per cent in Vitez. All the rest were
1 expelled or ...
2 Q. Thank you. While you were still there --
3 A. ... killed.
4 Q. Thank you. While you were still there, was
5 there aid, food aid in particular, coming through or to
7 A. While I was in custody, my wife said that on
8 several occasions they brought food in front of the
9 entrance and they only distributed food to Croats and
10 Serbs. At that time, the three children of my brother
11 who was killed together with his wife, they came over
12 to stay with me at my apartment together with their
13 grandmother, so there was five of them, and then these
14 neighbours asked to have some food given to the
15 children because there were so many children there.
16 However, the Croat who was doing this said that there
17 was nothing for the balijas.
18 Q. You told us one or two incidents of what
19 happened to you when you were doing your work as a
20 police officer. Just in a sentence, when you were
21 doing your work as a police officer, how were you
22 treated generally when you went to the scenes of crimes
23 and so on?
24 A. If an offence was committed on territory that
25 went beyond Stari Vitez and if we had to go through
1 territory that was under HVO control, until I would
2 reach the scene, I would -- or not only myself but the
3 entire investigating team would be taken out of our
4 vehicles, we would be searched, we would have to put
5 our hands up, and then they would search the vehicle
6 too and then they would let us go.
7 At one point in time, or, actually, when we
8 were involved in one particular investigation, when one
9 of our men stepped on a mine between Tolovici and, I
10 think, Krcevine or Preocica, we agreed with our
11 colleagues from the police station that we could pass.
12 We passed one checkpoint because we persuaded them to
13 let us go. The other checkpoint, which was 100 metres
14 away from the first one and you can see it, the guards
15 from the other checkpoint saw us pass the first
16 checkpoint; however, the guard again made us leave the
17 vehicle, went to headquarters to see whether we could
18 pass, and he returned later and he said that we should
19 go back, that he cannot let us go to the scene to
20 investigate. And that's the way it was every day.
21 Q. Thank you. I should have asked you this
22 earlier: Were you yourself active in politics at all,
23 active in the SDA or in any other way?
24 A. No.
25 Q. I should also have asked you to deal with
1 telephones. You told us somebody came and took your
2 telephone before the time when you were finally
3 arrested. Was that seizing of telephones unique to
4 you, or did it happen to others, to your knowledge?
5 A. No, they took the telephones of all Muslims,
6 and then when they would leave the building, they would
7 throw the telephones on the concrete and break them.
8 Q. So although telephones were taken, were you
9 still able to watch the television?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. The man, Anto Valenta, you made reference to
12 him yesterday and to his book. Did you know him at
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. What were his expressed views on things?
16 A. Well, you can see that from the book too. He
17 changed the boundaries of municipalities on the
18 territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina. He proposed humane
19 resettlements. He simply annexed to one municipality
20 villages with a Croat population so that he would
21 create or, rather, not create but he actually wanted to
22 have an imbalance between the Croats and the Muslims,
23 one that would be in favour of the Croats. At press
24 conferences that were held in Busovaca, he said that in
25 public on several occasions, and he showed us maps of
1 Travnik and explained them.
2 Q. What was his position in the HDZ at the time;
3 do you know?
4 A. He was a high political official. I don't
5 know exactly what he was, but I know that he was in the
6 top echelons in the HDZ.
7 Q. You have told us about Stari Vitez itself and
8 you have also used the word "Mahala." "Mahala" I think
9 turns up in relation to a number of towns or villages.
10 Can you just explain the position and, in particular,
11 the ethnic composition of Stari Vitez and whether the
12 name "Mahala" has any general significance for the
14 A. "Mahala" is a Turkish word that relates to a
15 particular section of town, and in Stari Vitez, the
16 majority population was Muslim. However, I should also
17 like to add that our Croat neighbours who did not want
18 to be exchanged spent the entire war in Stari Vitez.
19 They were treated like everyone else. That was the
20 Pavlovic family, then the Mioc family and, I don't
21 know, some other families too.
22 Q. Thank you. The mosque in Stari Vitez, what
23 happened to that and when? You have touched on this
25 A. In '92, at a joint meeting, rather, on a
1 mission where Pero Skopljak was and a priest, I don't
2 know his name, on one side, and on the other side was
3 Mr. Munib Kajmovic and Omer Mestrovac, the hodza of
4 Vitez. Then Pero Skopljak said publicly that he had
5 ordered the shelling of the minaret of the Vitez mosque
6 because, allegedly, that is what he said, there was a
7 sniper that was operating from up there, and then, on
8 several occasions, the hodza of Vitez swore that there
9 were no snipers on top of the minaret and then Pero
10 Skopljak told him that he was lying, something to that
11 effect, and I know that Jurcevic, called Butur, was
12 shooting from elsewhere.
13 Q. Was it possible thereafter to pray publicly
14 for Muslims or not; what was the position?
15 A. The mosque was in Stari Vitez, that is to
16 say, that it was possible, but then how risky this was,
17 that's another matter.
18 Q. The man, Bralo, of whom you spoke yesterday,
19 did he make some particular boast of what he had done
20 on one occasion?
21 A. Yes. When we were digging trenches, when
22 they brought us to dig trenches, he said that he was
23 involved in a competition in killing.
24 Q. Did he give one detail of a particular
25 killing he had engaged in, he had done?
1 A. Yes. He said that the hajji who had built
2 the mosque in the lower part of Ahmici, that he
3 had crucified him like Jesus, and that when he
4 crucified him, he put nails into his hands and his
6 Q. Did he say where he had done that?
7 A. I can't remember, but it was on the door of
8 some place. I don't know whether it was on the door of
9 the mosque or the door of a house. I really can't
10 remember now.
11 Q. Were you aware of any particular paramilitary
12 groups in or around Vitez?
13 A. I was not aware of paramilitary groups
14 because all units were under the control, the Jokers
15 and everybody were.
16 Q. Under the control of whom?
17 A. The Croatian Defence Council.
18 MR. NICE: Thank you very much. That's all I
20 JUDGE MAY: Who is to cross-examine?
21 MR. STEIN: We would like to start over here
22 with co-counsel first.
23 JUDGE MAY: I trust that means you are
24 applying to do that because you are changing the usual
1 MR. STEIN: Exactly, sir, if you don't mind.
2 JUDGE MAY: I take it that the burden of
3 cross-examination will be on Mr. Kovacic because this
4 involves Vitez; is that right? So you will be much
6 MR. STEIN: In all ways.
7 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you, Counsel. Thank you,
8 Your Honour.
9 Cross-examined by Mr. Kovacic:
10 Q. Good morning, Mr. Zlotrg. I am the defence
11 counsel for Mario Cerkez, and I have a few questions to
12 put to you. In view of the breadth of your testimony,
13 there's going to be quite a bit of it, so I ask you to
14 be patient.
15 Yesterday, you said that you started to work
16 in the Ministry of the Interior in the early '80s, and
17 then you said that it was actually in 1986; is that
19 A. I don't know exactly, but I think it was in
20 1986. After all, this can be found in the archives of
21 the Ministry of the Interior. You can check that.
22 Q. Then we agree that you started working there
23 in the mid '80s; is that right?
24 A. Yes, that's right.
25 Q. What schools did you complete or, rather,
1 when you started working in the police force, what
2 schools had you finished?
3 A. I worked as a car mechanic.
4 Q. In order to work as a car mechanic, what did
5 you complete?
6 A. I completed a secondary school.
7 Q. So that was a secondary school?
8 A. Yes, it was.
9 Q. It was a vocational school?
10 A. Yes, it was.
11 Q. In your day, it lasted three years?
12 A. Yes, three years.
13 Q. That is to say, you went to an eight-year
14 elementary school, a three-year vocational school, and
15 then you started working in the police force; right?
16 And in 1986, you got a job at the Ministry of the
17 Interior for the first time?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. If I understand you correctly, it's hard to
20 define this, but can I say that you were actually in
21 charge of stocks and other equipment that the Ministry
22 of the Interior had?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Including weapons, ammunition, equipment for
25 the reserve police force?
1 A. The active force too.
2 Q. I see. For the active and reserve police
3 force. Thank you. At the point in time when you
4 started working at the MUP in Vitez, who was the head
5 of the MUP?
6 A. Hazim Viteskic.
7 Q. Hazim Viteskic, he was a Muslim?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. At that time, for example, the first year,
10 two or three that you spent working there, do you
11 remember what the ethnic composition was in the MUP,
12 that is to say, the ethnic composition of employees?
13 A. Well, I could not tell you for sure but it
14 was quite balanced.
15 Q. Did this composition reflect the ethnic
16 composition or structure of the population of the
17 municipality of Vitez?
18 A. I think so but I'm not a politician. Before
19 the conflict, I didn't know what these percentages
20 were, how many Muslims or how many Croats or how many
21 Serbs lived in Vitez, so I can't really tell you that.
22 Q. All right. Let me rephrase the question.
23 May I conclude that you did not feel that things were
24 different in the police station than they were in
25 regular life in Vitez?
1 A. That's right.
2 Q. Were there any serious deviations from that,
3 you probably would have felt it; right?
4 A. I assume so, yes.
5 Q. Thank you. You told us that certain changes
6 took place in the MUP, that Mr. Pero Skopljak became
7 head of the MUP, that the commander was changed too,
8 and now who became the commander?
9 A. Saban Mahmutovic.
10 Q. He was not commander until before the
12 A. No. No, Skopljak wasn't head of police
14 Q. Please, just give me "Yes" or "No" answers.
15 I'm going to ask you about that further on.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. After the elections, you got two new bosses,
18 so to speak?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Your top boss was the head of the MUP; right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. The lower boss, so to speak, "a bit lower,"
23 but we just need to understand each other, was
24 Mahmutovic; right?
25 A. Mahmutovic commanded the uniformed part, that
1 is to say, the authorised officials, and the head of
2 MUP had authorised and unauthorised officials under
3 him, that is to say, that the police is a semi-military
4 organisation which does have a system of command.
5 Q. All right. So from the point of view of
6 hierarchy, is it correct, what I said?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So Pero Skopljak was top man and --
9 A. Below him was the commander.
10 Q. All right. Thank you. This set-up of the
11 leading positions, was it rather a result of the key
12 positions in the municipality after the coalition and
13 the HDZ had won the elections?
14 A. I think so, but I was not a member of any
15 political party, so I can't give you any answer to that
17 Q. You don't have any firsthand knowledge about
19 A. Well, that's the way I think it was.
20 Q. Who did you replace as logistics officer?
21 A. As I said, in 1986, it was Edin Mucic.
22 Q. All right. You told us then that you were
23 transferred, or you, rather, used the word "replaced,"
24 as logistics officer and that you were reassigned to
25 the post of criminology technician?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. In the organisation of work at the police
3 station, in the sense of pay, salary, job descriptions
4 at the police station, who is better paid?
5 A. I think that criminology technicians are.
6 Q. So a criminology technician is a person who
7 has a better position than a logistics officer; right?
8 A. Yes, but it requires a lot more time.
9 Q. Does it also require more expertise and more
11 A. Yes, definitely, because this is a very
12 specialised job, and you have to focus on certain
14 Q. Let me summarise this. It is a more complex
15 job in terms of job description and has a higher
16 salary, it requires better qualifications, and you're
17 saying, nevertheless, that you were replaced from the
18 position of logistics officer?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Wasn't it perhaps some kind of a promotion or
21 perhaps a reassignment?
22 A. Well, perhaps it would have been for you, but
23 I was on the losing end because I could earn far more
24 by doing second jobs moonlighting than through this
25 salary, because I was on duty around the clock, seven
1 days a week, and then I would rest for seven days.
2 Q. I didn't understand this, as technician or
4 A. Well, as technician, I was on duty for seven
5 days, round the clock, when it was my turn to be on
7 Q. And as logistics officer?
8 A. Well, I would work my eight-hour working day
9 and then would be free.
10 Q. But if I understood you correctly, then you
11 would make more money during your free time?
12 A. Yes. I worked as a car mechanic.
13 Q. I've been warned, and I'm asking you to do
14 the same thing. We shouldn't overlap one another.
15 Let's wait for the interpreters to interpret what we've
16 said, and then let's finish.
17 So that was why you were appointed to the job
18 of a criminology technician as a replacement, it was
19 something that was better for you?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Otherwise, one could say it was a promotion,
22 by all other standards?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 A. I didn't ask for it. It was Mr. Skopljak who
1 insisted on it.
2 Q. Will you please tell us --
3 JUDGE MAY: Could you slow down, please?
4 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Yes.
5 Q. When you were assigned to do the job of
6 technician, did you have the training necessary for
8 A. No. I immediately proceeded to Sarajevo to a
10 Q. How long were you at that course?
11 A. I don't know, two months, two and a half
13 Q. Was it a serious course where you worked a
15 A. Yes. It was also a crash course because of
16 the situation, so that we really worked practically the
17 whole day.
18 Q. Where was that?
19 A. At the Ministry of the Interior School at
21 Q. All right. There, did you acquire at least
22 some basic knowledge about how one calculates the angle
23 of the bouncing bullet or what?
24 A. No. That was a matter for experts.
25 Q. And criminology technicians, they don't go
1 through that kind of training?
2 A. No. Ours was only to find traces to take --
3 to put on record all the marks or whatever and file
4 them and, of course, measure some parameters.
5 Q. But you do know which are relevant marks and
6 things like that, otherwise you should know how to
7 calculate an angle?
8 A. No, we never calculated the angle. We never
9 learned that, but we did learn the bullet trajectories.
10 Q. You learned the trajectories?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you learn anything about how to
13 differentiate between projectiles fired from
14 semi-automatics and automatic weapons, on the other
16 A. No, we did not learn anything about that
17 difference, and I don't think there was any need to.
18 As for calibres of weapons, weapon calibres, we were
19 not the ones who ascertained that on a victim. Others
20 do that.
21 Q. And the bullet casings found there?
22 A. Well, when you find them, you send them to an
23 expert for the expert analysis.
24 Q. Did I understand you well, that your training
25 came down to the framework needed for a technician to
1 secure marks and evidence?
2 A. Well, I can tell you all that we were taught
3 there if you were interested in that.
4 Q. No. It will be easier this way.
5 A. Well, we could establish -- of course, find
6 traces of gunpowder on clothes and all sorts of things.
7 Q. No. Just let it be. Let me just try to
8 finish with this part.
9 A. That is what I'm telling you. We can
10 establish the relevant distance, whether it was at
11 close range or not, judging by the gunpowder marks on
12 the body and so on and so forth, but I simply do not
13 think that this is -- I'm really not passing a test for
14 a criminology technician right now, am I?
15 Q. Let me ask you a specific question.
16 Yesterday, you told us about the on-site investigation
17 when Samir Trako was killed, and you mentioned a
18 detail. You said that there was an entry and an exit
19 hole on the glass or you said two or three holes had
20 been made in the glass pane and that you were worried
21 or, rather, that you were puzzled. How could it be
22 that on the other glass pane, which was on the other
23 side, there were no holes or any other mark?
24 A. Yes. All right.
25 Q. Tell us, how could you conclude since you
1 didn't know where the shot had been fired from?
2 A. Of course we knew where the fire had come
4 Q. How did you?
5 A. On the basis of what we were shown by the
6 commander of the military police. The shot came from a
7 distance of some five or six metres away from Trako.
8 Q. And that was roughly where?
9 A. The desk or the table at which members of the
10 Croatian Defence were sitting and Perica Vukadinovic
11 was sitting there at that moment.
12 Q. And that was supposed to be a reception desk
13 or something?
14 A. No, not the reception desk because that was
15 in the hall, and that was over here in the room.
16 Q. It served as an office or what?
17 A. Well, I guess so.
18 Q. Will you tell me, please, Mr. Zlotrg, in the
19 former Yugoslavia or in Bosnia, did you ever act as an
20 expert witness in court, as a criminology expert?
21 A. I've already told you that.
22 Q. No. Tell me "Yes" or "No" before the Court.
23 A. No. I became a criminology technician much
25 Q. So you never testified as an expert witness?
1 A. In the former Yugoslavia, no.
2 Q. Since we are addressing this issue, that is,
3 the investigation of the killing of the late Samir
4 Trako, I should like to clarify certain matters so I do
5 have a few questions in this regard.
6 You go into the hotel. As far as I remember,
7 there is a glass door, two openings, and then behind it
8 is another glass door; is that so?
9 A. And between them?
10 Q. And between them is a passage. Then beyond
11 that second glass door is a corridor where there is a
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And from that corridor, stairs lead
15 downstairs --
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. -- to the bowling hall. And there was a bar
18 in the bowling hall?
19 A. Yes, but it wasn't --
20 Q. It was a public place?
21 A. Yes. Any visitor could go there, those who
22 did. But it is true that the late Samir Trako and his
23 two colleagues, Petar and another Trako --
24 THE INTERPRETER: I didn't hear his name.
25 A. -- were also there that night. That is what
1 we know.
2 Q. Did you learn during the investigation that
3 the three of them were in that bar?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you learn that some other people,
6 including Muslims, were in that bar?
7 A. To my knowledge, there were members of the
8 Croatian Defence Council, and I'm not aware of anything
10 Q. But just now, you told us that there were HVO
11 members, and a while ago, you also said there were some
12 other people. Now we've got -- well, in addition to
13 the three of them --
14 A. In addition to the three of them, that's what
15 I said. I told you -- I confirmed that the three of
16 them were there.
17 Q. So we agree that that particular bar was open
18 to all?
19 A. Well, I know that I did not go there because
20 nobody invited me there. But, yes, I agree --
21 Q. But most of the Muslims were not desirable
23 A. Yes, that's right.
24 Q. But was it open to all?
25 A. Well, I guess so. I did not go there, so I
1 really can't answer that question.
2 JUDGE MAY: One moment. A pause between
3 question and answer, please.
4 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation)
5 Q. Sir, that evening, from what you are saying,
6 at least those three, that is, two Trakos and Petak,
7 were there?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And they were Muslims?
10 A. They are Muslims. It's not that they were,
11 they are Muslims.
12 Q. I'm sorry. I said "were" because one of them
13 was killed. You also confirmed that there were some
14 other individuals there about whom you learned later.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You told us that in the hotel building or,
17 rather, in that office, there was, you told us, the HVO
18 command and you said also Cerkez's post, that he worked
19 there, allegedly, and you also added that you didn't
20 know in what capacity Cerkez was in that institution.
21 A. I said -- I said that it was a commander, but
22 I do not know whether it would be a gauge of the staff
23 or what because I do not know how the HVO was organised
24 at the time, but I do know that a couple of months
25 later, we saw the Vitez Brigade and that Mr. Cerkez
1 took over the duty of the commander. That is what I
2 know about this.
3 Q. I do not think we should now go back to the
4 transcript to see what you said or did not say. I do
5 not think that you said a commander, I think you said
6 "I don't know in what capacity." But we do have a
7 transcript so it doesn't really matter.
8 Since you mentioned the alignment of the
9 brigade, do you remember when that happened?
10 A. I know it was a warm day. I subsequently
11 later [as interpreted] that a couple of combatants
12 dropped down and Dr. Mujezinovic with his team had to
13 extend for a stay.
14 Q. So it was summer '92. And you said that
15 Mario Cerkez then became the commander of what?
16 A. Of the Vitez Brigade, from what I know.
17 Q. Of the Vitez Brigade?
18 A. Of the Vitez Brigade or the Croatian Defence
20 Q. Are you sure that the Vitez Brigade existed
21 at that time?
22 A. I assume so.
23 Q. On the basis of what?
24 A. Well, I cannot talk about the organisation of
25 the army of the Croatian Defence Council because I had
1 no access to that, but on the basis of all the other
2 developments, that was my assumption.
3 Q. And that alignment, was it secret, public?
4 A. There were the police members there.
5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice?
6 MR. NICE: The Live Note is finding the speed
7 very difficult or impossible to keep up with.
8 (Trial Chamber deliberates)
9 MR. NICE: May I add a detail that the Live
10 Note transcribers asked me to mention? The particular
11 problem this morning includes, or problems this morning
12 include, that the interpreters aren't identifying the
13 end of question and answer by use of the word
14 "Question," "Answer"; and therefore, it is very
15 difficult for her to distinguish, in typing the text,
16 so on, which is the question from which is the answer.
17 I only make these points on her behalf because I am
18 sitting next to her and we discovered that she was in
20 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Kovacic, let me explain
21 what I think the problem is. Because you speak the
22 same language as the witness, you tend to have a kind
23 of conversation, and so the questions and the answers
24 are intermingled, and so quite often we see here,
25 "Can't distinguish between questions and answer." And
1 that doesn't help us. So I think you will have to make
2 a very determined effort to slow down and to ensure
3 that the witness answers you before you move on to the
4 next question and I think the witness also has to be
5 aware of the problem.
6 MR. KOVACIC: I will do my best. As you said
7 rightly, my problem is that we are speaking the same
8 language and then I reflectly (sic) and the witness is
9 also doing so, then we both probably should try. Thank
11 Q. (Interpretation) Mr. Zlotrg, you heard it
12 just as well as I did. With regard to this
13 investigation, you mentioned Mr. Efraim Pinjo.
14 A. Yes. He was assistant commander of the
15 Territorial Defence for security matters.
16 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Thank you.
17 Could you please now see a video recording, with the
18 Court's permission?
19 Your Honours, I should merely like to ask the
20 witness to identify the gentleman that we just referred
21 to. It's about five seconds or ten seconds of video.
22 Q. Will you please look at it and then tell us
23 whether this is Efraim Pinjo?
24 (Videotape played)
25 THE INTERPRETER (Voiceover):
1 "INTERVIEWER: Here in Travnik we found Mr.
2 Efraim Pinjo. Once upon a time, he worked for the TO
3 in Vitez. We shall ask him to tell us under what
4 conditions did he move to Travnik, why did he leave
6 MR. PINJO: I moved to Travnik because I was
7 driven away. People were also sent away. The former
8 colleague, Hakija Cengic and others and those who drove
9 a [indiscernible] also my fellow policemen, Croats,
10 they know very well who we are and those who were
11 driven away were sent to Zenica.
12 INTERVIEWER: And what are you doing here?
13 Here you are with the joint command.
14 MR. PINJO: Yes, I am here with the joint
15 command. This is what I also wanted to do.
16 INTERVIEWER: That command has
17 [indiscernible] of May. How has it been working?
18 MR. PINJO: Well, so far it's been all right,
19 and this joint command will defend my city and their
20 city too.
21 INTERVIEWER: Thank you. Thank you."
22 A. Yes. That is Efraim Pinjo.
23 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Excuse me.
24 Could we please have this admitted as an exhibit for
25 the Defence?
1 JUDGE MAY: Do you have a date for it,
2 Mr. Kovacic?
3 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) No,
4 unfortunately, we do not, but I think the witness might
5 tell us. I will ask him when did Efraim Pinjo leave
6 Vitez and go to Travnik. We heard him say that he did
7 so. This is material from different places and,
8 unfortunately, there is simply odds and ends, and most
9 of them do not have that particular marking on the
10 tape, although I think he does mention May, early May,
11 I believe.
12 THE REGISTRAR: (Interpretation) This will be
13 number D3/2.
14 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) May I go on,
16 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
17 MR. KOVACIC:
18 Q. So, Mr. Zlotrg, this is Efraim Pinjo who you
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. So he was a security officer with the
22 Territorial Defence headquarters in Vitez?
23 A. Yes, assistant commander.
24 Q. Assistant commander?
25 A. Yes, of the Territorial Defence staff.
1 Q. Did you know him?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you remember when he left Vitez?
4 A. I don't know when he left because I was not
5 in the army then, but this recording must have been
6 made while we were still on very friendly relations
7 with the Croatian Defence Council in Travnik.
8 Q. Could it be early May '92?
9 A. I don't know. You'd have to ask him. I
10 suppose he knows when he made the statement.
11 Q. But you exclude the possibility it was May
13 A. It could have been any time before the
14 conflict in Travnik between the HVO and the Armija.
15 Q. What was the connection between the reserve
16 police force with the Territorial Defence, subsequently
17 the army of the B and H?
18 A. The reserve police force was subordinated to
19 the commander and through the commander to the chief,
20 and if the commanders agreed a coordinated action with
21 the Armija, then they did it. If not, then each one
22 would do his job. I mean, the reserve police, of
23 course, was responsible for public order.
24 Q. Yesterday you told us that the officer on
25 duty at the station, after you received information
1 about the murder in the hotel, did not call you to take
2 part in the investigation, he called up the chief?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And then another team went?
5 A. Yes, the one that was appointed by the chief.
6 Q. Oh, I see, the one who was appointed by the
7 chief. Tell me, this murder, at that time, was that a
8 delicate matter for the police in view of the tensions,
9 inter-ethnic tensions, in the community?
10 A. In May? Well, it shouldn't have been. If I
11 could go to Kruscica later and if I could receive
12 information about the murder after one hour only, I
13 don't see why it couldn't have gone a few months before
15 Q. Oh, so in May 1992, there were no
16 inter-ethnic tensions?
17 A. There were tensions, but they did not reach
18 that point where an investigation could not be carried
19 out. Perhaps it was a different backdrop against --
20 Q. Oh, so you think that the duty officer at the
21 police station, this chief, could have resolved that
22 matter routinely?
23 A. The duty officer was not supposed to inform
24 the chief at all. He did not have to. First he was
25 supposed to inform the investigating team and then to
1 take this telegram to the chief for his signature and
2 then to inform him about the event. Why did he not
3 inform the commander of the station, who was a Muslim?
4 Q. All right. At any rate, you performed the
5 investigation the next morning; right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. I'm going to read some names to you, so could
8 you please confirm whether these people were there? On
9 the next morning, was investigating judge of the basic
10 court in Travnik, Mr. Zeljko Percinlic, was he there?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So he was. What about the operations workers
13 of the Public Security Station of Vitez, Salem Topcic?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And Vlado Santic?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What are these men, ethnically speaking?
18 A. Vlado is a Croat, and he was there the night
19 before that, and Salem, who came only on that morning,
20 he was a Muslim.
21 Q. So from the Public Security Station of Vitez,
22 one Muslim and one Croat?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. As a criminology technician from the same
25 station, you were present and Frano Sucic was present?
1 A. Yes, but Frano was there that night too and I
2 was not. I only came on the next day.
3 Q. All right. But that morning, you were there
4 and Frano was there?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. You told us that you were a Muslim or a
7 Bosniak, ethnically, you.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And Frano?
10 A. Frano is a Croat. I imagine that he says
11 he's a Croat.
12 Q. I know it sounds a bit strange. The two of
13 us know but others don't. That's why I had to ask this
14 question so that it would be in the transcript.
15 Then Vlado Miskovic was present, the public
16 prosecutor from Travnik?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. Oh, so he was there. A few minutes ago, a
19 person who was mentioned who we saw on the video clip
20 too, Pinjo Efraim; was he there?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. That is to say that there was a total of
23 seven persons there in this official capacity?
24 A. Yes. But the crime scene was not secured
1 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Please, we'll
2 take things one at a time and we'll reach that.
3 At this point I would like to ask the Court
4 the following: I have this document. I have the
5 record of this investigation, but I owe you an
7 Witness Zlotrg was supposed to testify only
8 after the next witnesses who are supposed to come in.
9 I'm not going to mention their names because I don't
10 know what their status will be and how they will
11 testify. So that is to say, the three witnesses were
12 skipped. Immediately on the 26th, when our colleague
13 from the Prosecution told us that this witness will be
14 brought in instead of the planned witnesses, we asked
15 the registry for a translation of this document. Of
16 course, I have a copy here of the request. We asked
17 that this be done as soon as possible; however,
18 unfortunately, this has not been done by this morning,
19 but I would like to ask you nevertheless that we use
20 this document. I'm not going to tender the document.
21 I would just like to put two or three questions. After
22 that, we can give it a number, and after that, as soon
23 as the translation comes in, then we are officially
24 going to hand it over to the Court.
25 JUDGE MAY: Very well. There is a reason for
1 the lack of translation so we will allow that to
2 happen. What would the number be, please?
3 THE REGISTRAR: (Interpretation) D4/2.
4 MR. NICE: No doubt the Defence will make a
5 copy available to us ahead of the translation because
6 it may be of some value to us.
7 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Make sure the Prosecution
8 have a copy. In fact, they should probably have it.
9 Have you one available?
10 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) I do.
11 JUDGE MAY: Let them have one now.
12 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Could the usher
13 please take care of this?
14 Your Honour, perhaps in order to speed up our
15 work, I think that the witness should also look at a
16 copy so that I could do this properly with him and then
17 we will move more speedily, I think.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Could a copy please be
19 placed on the ELMO for the interpreters, please?
20 JUDGE MAY: A copy on the ELMO for the
21 interpreters, if you have one?
22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the usher help us,
24 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) I would like to
25 continue, with your permission.
1 Q. Witness Zlotrg, we'll try to save a bit of
2 time. Perhaps you would like to look at the document a
3 bit more. Perhaps we can move on. I'm not going to go
4 into any great detail with this record because it is
5 going to be tendered into evidence. But just a few
6 brief questions so that we see what all of this is
8 The first sentence after the title of the
9 document, that is to say, after the actual title, which
10 is "Record of Investigation," the date and place is
11 mentioned of the investigation and then further on it
12 says in this sentence, "And on the occasion of the
13 murder of Trako Samir," et cetera.
14 Is there any doubt as to the relationship
15 between this document and the event that we spoke of?
16 A. Well, most probably yes because I didn't
17 write it, it is the judge who wrote it.
18 Q. But the date is right, is it?
19 A. I assume it is.
20 Q. And what about the place?
21 A. Yes, the place is right.
22 Q. And what about the persons who were present?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. The persons who are mentioned here are under
25 the heading "Uvidjaj vrse ..." "The investigation is
1 carried out by ..."
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Then the following heading is "General
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. For the purposes of the transcript, it says
7 on the top of this page, "On the 22nd of May, 1992."
8 A. Oh, you're talking about this record?
9 Q. Yes. At 7.30 in Vitez.
10 A. The record was written later. It was written
11 by the judge.
12 Q. Yes, that's right. But then it bears the
13 date of the investigation itself.
14 A. As far as I can tell, it says here the record
15 was composed on the 22nd of May, 1992, and I know that
16 the judge did not write it as we were there on the
18 Q. As a criminology technician, I imagine that
19 you attended a great many investigations before.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And there was an investigating judge there
22 and he was in charge; right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And now you said that you assume that the
25 judge wrote the record later ...
1 A. Please, please.
2 Q. Is it normal for the judge to write this
3 later or does he write the same day or the very same
4 minute? Tell us what was customary?
5 A. He would write it on the same day. He would
6 do it in handwriting. But here it says that it is
7 composed, not that it was written on that date; that is
8 to say, that it was typed out on that date.
9 Q. Do you know when the judge dictated this to
10 his secretary?
11 A. That I do not know.
12 Q. Was the judge at the investigation, on-scene
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. But you don't know exactly when he wrote it?
16 A. No, I don't, but at any rating, he couldn't
17 have written it at 7.30.
18 Q. On that morning, when you were there at 7.30,
19 was he taking notes?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. I would like to draw your attention to the
22 first paragraph entitled "Opsti Podaci," general facts,
23 and in the second half of this paragraph,
24 approximately, after the address is mentioned, the
25 address of the late Samir Trako, after the comma, it
1 says, "The mentioned person was killed by a perpetrator
2 known, Perica Vukadinovic," and then his personal data
3 are given.
4 On which basis did the investigating judge
5 find out what the name of the person who did the
6 shooting was?
7 A. I was doing the investigation, and the judge
8 was taking statements operationally. I did not know
9 who he took statements from; I imagine from the
10 commander of the military police, but I don't know. I
11 was not present. But he did take statements from those
12 present; that's what he was supposed to do.
13 Q. In the penultimate paragraph, under the same
14 heading but page 2, the paragraph begins with the words
15 "a licu mjesta" or on the spot. It's more or less
16 midway down the page. I shall read this sentence: "On
17 the scene or on the spot, we found the eyewitnesses to
18 the event, namely, Dubravko Kraljevic," I'll skip his
19 personal particulars and address because we don't
20 really need it now, then "Josip Tomic, Ratko Biletic,
21 Ivan Budimir," and then the text goes on, "and
22 eyewitnesses Trako Suad," and then again comes his
23 particulars, "and Senad Petak were not found at the
24 scene." The last sentence, the last sentence under
25 this heading says, "Eyewitness Anastazija Blazevic was
1 also found at the scene."
2 Can you tell us, do you know the profession
3 of any of these eyewitnesses or who they are, what they
4 are, and how they happened to be there?
5 A. I'm not an operative worker; I'm a
6 criminology technician, so it was up to me to collect
7 evidence, and it was for others, together with the
8 judge, to take the particulars and everything else.
9 Q. Excuse me. I was not asking you about your
10 contacts and statements there. All I asked you was, we
11 have just read the names of those persons, and all I
12 want to ask you is, if you can tell us, whom among them
13 do you know? Will you please just tell me the names of
14 those you know?
15 A. Senad Petak, Ivan Budimir, and this one,
16 Kraljevic, Dubravko, I mean.
17 Q. So you did not know Tomic?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Suad Trako, you didn't know him?
20 A. Well, I'm sure I know them, but now -- I
21 mean, I listened to the names. These are the only ones
22 I can remember.
23 Q. Mrs. Anastazija Blazevic?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Do you know that she owned that coffee shop?
1 A. No.
2 Q. You don't know that?
3 A. No.
4 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Your Honours,
5 one could ask very many questions on the basis of this
6 document, but I think it is telling enough as it is, so
7 that I won't go into it further at this moment.
8 Q. Yesterday, you spoke about some evidence at
9 the scene of the crime, and, among other things, you
10 mentioned blood, that is, blood stains on the floor of
11 the room that we talked about. Then you said, if I may
12 quote you, that in your view, "There should have been
13 more blood."
14 A. Yes, and --
15 Q. No. Wait for me to ask the question. Did I
16 interpret correctly what you said?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And on the basis of what did you think that
19 there should have been more blood?
20 A. It is because they were perforating wounds
21 because there were these marks through the glass wall,
22 and the exit wound, that is, the bullet, as it comes
23 out of the body, it makes a larger opening. Since the
24 distance was four or five metres, there should have
25 been more blood. I mean, there should have been blood
1 throughout -- all along the corridor as they were
2 carrying him out, and yet there were no more traces of
3 blood, except for what I wrote down, just a very
4 small -- there were very few traces of blood, and that
5 is not logical.
6 Q. Please, Witness, the body, was it or was it
7 not there when you arrived there? Please, "Yes" or
8 "No" only.
9 A. No.
10 Q. So how did you know at that moment where he
11 received his wounds and whether it was a perforating
12 wound? Where was the entry and exit wound? You can't
13 know that.
14 A. Also, according to the statement and the
15 position which they told us, they told us where the
16 body was, and the door was slightly ajar. The witness,
17 it means, was in the room, and the door is behind the
18 witness. So if he is in the room, then the glass wall
19 must have been behind him. Therefore, it must have
20 been a perforating wound.
21 Q. But that was your assumption?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Witness, a while ago, you said that you did
24 your technical work and that you cannot go into the
25 statements made by those present.
1 A. Yes, but we most know something about the
2 event so as to do that. We must have some data as to
3 where the body lay so as to perform other on-site
4 investigation activities.
5 Q. I see. That means that these conjectures
6 were based on statements of others and on the basis of
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So the conclusions did not derive only from
10 criminology evidence, did they, but also were based on
11 what other persons said?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, for me, it is a
15 good time for a break, but it's up to you. I can
17 JUDGE MAY: We're finishing early. Are you
18 moving off this topic now?
19 MR. KOVACIC: Yes. This topic is finished.
20 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We will adjourn now
21 for 20 minutes.
22 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you.
23 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.
24 --- On resuming at 11.24 a.m.
25 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Kovacic.
1 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Thank you,
2 Mr. President.
3 Q. In connection with your previous statements,
4 to be precise, the first one with the judge in Zenica
5 on the 3rd of October, '94 where you made your first
6 statement, the first one we have, and then you made a
7 statement to the investigators of this Tribunal on the
8 27th and 28th of September, '97 in connection with the
9 events that we spoke about it, that is to say, the
10 murder of Samir Trako, there is a difference which I'd
11 like you to explain. When you made your statement to
12 the investigating judge in Zenica, that is to say, on
13 the 3rd of October, '94, you said that you could not
14 ascertain who the perpetrator of the murder was but
15 that there were rumours to the effect that Mario
16 Cerkez, commander of the Vitez Brigade, was the
17 perpetrator; is that true? Is that what you said?
18 A. Yes, but I told the judge that I could not
19 remember the name of the member of the military police
20 who allegedly, that is, I imagine according to even
21 Budimir, said that Perica Vukadinovic had committed
22 that. That is what I found out later, that is to say,
23 after a certain period of time, rumour had it in town
24 that Mario Cerkez had killed this gentleman.
25 Q. I understand. But you told the judge in
1 Zenica what I told you, what I read?
2 A. I did not read my statement in Zenica, so I
3 don't know what ...
4 Q. Well, look, at the end of the statement you
5 made in that court, there is a warning or, rather, a
6 note to the effect that -- well, I'm really translating
7 it from English: "That is all I have to say at this
8 point in time, although many more things happened.
9 Everything I said has been recorded accordingly. I
10 have no objections and acknowledge this statement as
11 mine with my signature."
12 I don't think that it is very important, but
13 I just asked you to confirm or deny, that is to say,
14 just say "Yes" or "No," that you told the judge in
15 Zenica that you were not able to ascertain who the
16 perpetrator was but that rumour had it that it was
17 Mario Cerkez?
18 A. I accept what was signed because at that
19 point in time, Mr. Perica Vukadinovic was not
20 accessible to us. He had been put away.
21 Q. In your statement to the investigator of this
22 Tribunal, the one that you made at the time I
23 mentioned, namely, the 27th and the 28th of September,
24 1997, you explained this event in quite a bit of
25 detail, and you do not mention here this story, this
1 rumour that you heard, that Mario Cerkez had committed
2 this; is that correct?
3 A. Yes, but this is not a statement made to the
4 investigator of The Hague Tribunal.
5 Q. What is it then?
6 A. This is an official note, I think that is
7 what it says up there, and it is some kind of a
8 reminder for me. These were notes I offered to the
9 investigator when he came to take a statement from me
10 for the Aleksovski case. I mean, I can read you the
11 original. See? Look. "Official note made on the 5th
12 of September, 1996 on the occasion of --" I mean,
13 that's what we're talking about.
14 Q. No, no, no. Sorry. I asked you about the
15 statement you made to the investigator on the 27th and
16 28th of September, 1997.
17 A. Well, possibly. I don't know. I thought --
18 Q. All right. Let me rephrase the question. Do
19 you remember that in this statement you made to the
20 investigator of the Tribunal, you did not mention at
21 any point that you heard rumours to the effect that
22 Cerkez was the perpetrator of this crime?
23 A. Had he asked me, I'm sure that I would have
24 told him that he was the perpetrator. I gave a lot of
25 statements, so I really do not remember.
1 Q. All right. Thank you. Tell me a bit about
2 the jurisdiction of courts in the territory of Vitez.
3 As regards the event that we just talked about, you
4 mentioned or, rather, we saw from the document itself
5 that the judge from the basic court in Travnik came,
6 and yesterday when you were telling us about another
7 event, you mentioned that there was a judge from
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. What was the territorial jurisdiction exactly
11 of the courts that covered the territory of Vitez?
12 A. I cannot answer that question. I'm not
14 Q. Can I infer then that in the case of one
15 event, the Travnik court would be present and in
16 another case, the Zenica court would be present?
17 A. Yes, because when death is the outcome, then
18 the judge of the higher court, of the basic court, has
19 to come to the scene of the crime.
20 Q. Fine. I am asking you this for those who did
21 not live there with us. Which one was the higher
22 court, the one in Zenica or the one in Travnik?
23 A. Well, you can tell by the very name, the
24 court in Zenica.
25 Q. Oh, I see. So the court in Zenica was
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Wasn't that court supposed to be present then
4 in the case of this murder?
5 A. Yes, but I don't know whether they authorised
6 the basic court in Travnik. This is not within my own
7 competence. I don't know.
8 Q. As a criminology technician, that is to say,
9 as part of the police, did you know that there were
10 instructions issued by the Ministry that a higher court
11 could assign a lower court to do certain things on
12 their behalf?
13 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, I'm going to
14 interrupt you because we have spent a very long time on
15 one particular incident. Now, it's for you to decide
16 how to cross-examine, and I don't know what other
17 material you want to put to the witness, but what I ask
18 is this: Is this Trial Chamber going to be assisted
19 with a very lengthy cross-examination on one particular
21 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Mr. President,
22 this last question or these last questions that were
23 related in a way to the subject of the murder were
24 actually aimed in a different direction. I am actually
25 trying to show an order or, rather, a disorder that
1 prevailed in this area, and I think that this is
2 important because the witness presented the question of
3 the legal order in a rather one-sided fashion in the
4 municipality of Vitez.
5 I don't want to dwell on the murder any
6 longer, but the fact was that there were two different
7 courts that were in charge of investigations.
8 JUDGE MAY: Very well.
9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Mr. Kovacic,
10 I think that the Judges are very well aware of your
11 concerns. The problem is as follows: We might ask you
12 to go straight to the core of what you want to
13 present. You have your own strategy, haven't you, and
14 it is up to you to present it, but you are also free to
15 go straight to the topic to make the cross-examination
16 easier. So this is the kind of contribution that we
17 are expecting from you. Thank you.
18 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Of course, I'll
19 try, Your Honour, but it depends upon how cooperative
20 the witness is too. Unfortunately, we had to repeat
21 certain things; otherwise, there was no need to do so,
22 really, but let us move on.
23 Q. Tell me, please, Mr. Zlotrg, when a crime
24 would be committed in the territory of Vitez during
25 this time that we are talking about, for example, from
1 the mid -- from mid '92 or in the middle of 1992, who
2 was in charge of arresting the perpetrator? We were
3 just mentioning this by way of an example. It can be
4 any other thing.
5 A. If it was a civilian, then the civilian
6 police; if it was a case of a member of the military,
7 then the military police.
8 Q. Tell me, when you would come to an
9 investigation of a crime scene, if anybody would report
10 to the police station, any citizen, that a crime had
11 been committed, then the investigation team would go
12 out, and -- we also saw this from part of your
13 testimony yesterday -- quite often the persons involved
14 are sometimes members of the military and sometimes
15 they are civilians.
16 How was a distinction made between civilian
17 authority, that is to say, the powers of the civilian
18 police, what they were supposed to do by way of
19 carrying out the investigation in relation to what the
20 military police were supposed to do with regard to
21 crimes? Can you explain this to us in two or three
23 A. Could you please clarify this question?
24 Q. When you come to carry out an investigation
25 of a crime scene and when you see that the victim is a
1 soldier, will the civilian police continue the
2 investigation or will it report to the military police
3 about this event?
4 A. When there is a report, then the police
5 patrol goes to the scene and reports to the duty
6 officer saying what it's all about, and then they
7 immediately present the picture if he says, from the
8 scene itself, whether this is a member of the military
9 or whether it's a civilian.
10 Q. So if the patrol in any way ...
11 A. Well, I'm not the one who decided what the
12 composition of the investigation team would be. It was
13 up to the duty officer to make the call to the right
14 place and to the persons who were on duty in the
15 civilian police.
16 Q. Yes, that I understand.
17 A. I'm only part of the team.
18 Q. Yes, we've understood that. Perhaps I didn't
19 put my question properly.
20 What is the criterion, irrespective of who is
21 doing this, the duty officer or the investigating team,
22 for determining which police is in charge of a certain
23 event, a certain crime?
24 A. Well, it depends whose member this is, if
25 this is a member of a certain army or if this person is
1 a civilian.
2 Q. Well, who? Who is a member of what?
3 A. Well, yes, I mean, it depends who did it.
4 Q. Oh, so you're trying to say the participants
5 in the entire event?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. You use plural, you said military police,
8 that is units, so we had several military police forces
9 and several units, and that transpires also from what
10 you said yesterday and today.
11 A. No, there was one civilian police and two
12 military police forces, the military police of the
13 Croatian Defence Council and the military police of the
14 Territorial Defence headquarters in Vitez.
15 Q. Correct. During a period of time.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. But later on, in late '92?
18 A. In late November '92, when we were expelled
19 from the police station and we were authorised by the
20 Ministry of the Interior in Sarajevo, then we set up
21 the Public Security Station loyal to the local
22 government of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
23 Q. So at that time and for the months to come,
24 there were two civilian, two military --
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. -- which operated in the same area.
2 A. No. The territories under the control of the
3 Croatian Defence Council were controlled by the
4 Croatian civilian police, and the territory where there
5 was a majority Muslim population was under our control.
6 Q. I see. So does that mean that yesterday,
7 when you read and we followed the events in sequence,
8 and I think there are 37 incidents that are mentioned
9 there, and all those acts that were read, in all of
10 them Muslims were victims, were they not? Was that the
11 result of that division or, rather, you, as police, as
12 the civilian police of Stari Vitez, came out to conduct
13 investigations only in the case of those incidents?
14 A. That was taken from the report, that is, from
15 the reports of -- from applications by citizens, and,
16 naturally, it was citizens of Muslim ethnicity who came
17 to our station, and we don't always go out for on-site
18 investigation. We did not go out for on-site
19 investigation when Hasan Skopljak was killed and
20 robbed, and he was a well-off Muslim living in Bila,
21 and there were quite a number of incidents when we did
22 not conduct on-site investigation because those things
23 happened in the territory controlled by the HVO.
24 Q. So -- correct. So people from the area
25 controlled by that station tried to --
1 A. No, people from the town, they came to
2 complain to us.
3 Q. But then you could not conduct the on-site
4 investigation, you couldn't go out?
5 A. No, but we took record of them.
6 Q. Mm-hmm. Is it possible that during that
7 period when, that is, when those 37 [indiscernible]
8 incidents came, that they had been between the 16th of
9 December, '92 until mid April '93, is it possible that
10 there was not a single Croat victim, that only Muslims
11 fell prey to crime?
12 A. At that time, I worked for the Public
13 Security Station in Vitez, in Stari Vitez, and
14 therefore this was the record of statements made by
15 people who made applications, who came to report, and
16 in all likelihood, Croats went to the station of the
17 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, but I don't know
19 Q. So you do not know that during that time,
20 some crimes had been committed at the expense of
22 A. I don't. I know that Croats came to us to
23 get their driving lessons and plates.
24 Q. Those who lived in Stari Vitez?
25 A. No, those who lived in the town. They also
1 came to apply for their passports to us and in large
3 Q. And still you do not know whether Croats were
4 victims of crimes?
5 A. I don't know because I had no access to the
6 police station in the territory controlled by Croatian
7 Community of Herceg-Bosna.
8 Q. But does that mean that the civilian police
9 in that part where you worked, that is, the civilian
10 police in Stari Vitez, took care only about protecting
12 A. No.
13 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Your Honours,
14 if I may, I should like to tender another document into
15 evidence. Unfortunately, Judge Bennouna, we have not
16 yet received a French translation -- some do have
17 French translations, some do not, but these are quite
18 straightforward documents, so perhaps it can be simple
19 -- some of them were tendered in the Blaskic case at a
20 later date, and all these documents that I will show
21 now have already been tendered into evidence in the
22 Blaskic case.
23 Mr. Usher, will you please see that these
24 documents are received by their Honours?
25 THE REGISTRAR: (Interpretation) Exhibit D5/2.
1 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Your Honours,
2 at the top, you have the Croatian text and then it is
3 followed by the English.
4 Would the registrar please give a copy to the
5 other Defence counsel?
6 Q. Will you please turn to page 2 of the
8 THE INTERPRETER: Could it please be placed
9 on the ELMO for the interpreters?
10 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation)
11 Q. The signature shows that the document was
12 signed by Mr. Ivan Budimir. Is that the same person
13 that you mentioned was present at that on-site
15 A. Well, if he doesn't have a double, then that
16 was the same person.
17 Q. But could you conclude that that is the same
18 person from the kind of activity that he was involved
20 A. At the time when I knew him, he did not work
21 for the SIS.
22 Q. Will you please tell the Court what SIS
23 stands for, if you know that?
24 A. It means the Security and Information Service
25 of the Croatian army.
1 Q. Will you now please go back to the first
2 page, 1, and look at the heading? So if the person
3 signing the document, Mr. Ivan Budimir, Intelligence
4 Service, here we see who this Intelligence Service
5 belonged to.
6 A. I also know that Mr. Zeljko Budimir was our
7 General. Now he is with the Croatian army, a General
9 Q. Please, will you stick to my questions and
10 the Prosecutor may ask you some additional questions
11 and then you may make statements that you like.
12 Can you please identify which unit did,
13 according to this document, belong the undersigned?
14 What does the heading say?
15 A. "Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatian
16 Community of Herceg-Bosna, Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade
17 Commander, 2nd Vitez Battalion."
18 Q. Thank you. The document is entitled
19 "Analysis," and then it says, "Analysis of the work of
20 the military police in the zone of responsibility of
21 the 2nd Battalion."
22 Do you know what was this 2nd Battalion and
23 what was its zone of responsibility?
24 A. No.
25 Q. You don't know?
1 A. Right.
2 Q. Then let us look at the contents. Item 1,
3 and the author says:
4 "1. The following police forces exist in
5 Vitez: the regional military police, the municipal
6 military police, the 4th Military Police Battalion, and
7 the civilian police."
8 Is that correct?
9 A. Yes, but I don't know what period of time
10 this is about because there is no date here.
11 Q. Yes, it is true, there is no date. That's
12 why I'm reading this out to you. Can you, from this
13 structure, rather, this listing of military police
14 forces, can we guess the date?
15 A. Well, it should be late December '92 or early
17 Q. Correct. We agree on this. Then item 3
19 3. Despite the presence of these four police
20 forces, problems abound throughout the municipality of
22 And then, in item 4, there is mention of
23 looting of cars, houses, of companies, woundings,
24 subversive activities in the town, et cetera.
25 You were with the police at the time, and you
1 told us what you knew about Stari Vitez. Can you read
2 from this? Can you say something about this, this
3 information about very many crimes, very many offences,
4 not in Stari Vitez alone and not in Vitez alone?
5 A. Yes, but these are mostly Muslim facilities,
6 and I listed dates and names of the owners. What it
7 says here is only cafes whereas I specified dates and
8 addresses, that is, Kolonija, the urban part of the
9 town controlled by the Croatian Council of Vitez, and I
10 think it quite tallies with my list.
11 Q. Oh, yes, quite. I have no doubts as to that
12 they tally. Quite the contrary. What I'm asking is,
13 can you conclude from this that on the Croat side,
14 somebody was also concerned about crime?
15 A. Yes, but the situation was getting worse with
16 every day.
17 Q. Right. Thank you. You said that your police
18 had moved, when it began working again in Stari Vitez,
19 to the fire brigade building.
20 A. No. To begin with, it is not my police, and
21 will you, please, sir -- that was the police of the
22 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina loyal to the local
23 government, so, please, do not call it as my personal
24 police. I have always, with all due respect, I always
25 said the police of the Croatian Community of
1 Herceg-Bosna, and I think it is really not proper to
2 say that either with regard to myself or the state that
3 I come from.
4 Q. I do apologise. It was not deliberate. I
5 simply tried to make things shorter.
6 So the police for which you worked, the
7 police of the Ministry of the Interior of the Republic
8 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, I really did not try to say
9 anything, but be that as it may, when it began working
10 again, I mean, the police for which you worked, that
11 was the police under the Ministry of the Interior of
12 Bosnia and Herzegovina, then your offices and your
13 seat, your headquarters, was in the fire brigade
14 building in Stari Vitez?
15 A. No, next to the fire brigade building, there
16 is another building. That is where we were.
17 Q. And what did you have in the fire brigade
18 building? That is the same compound, is it not?
19 A. No.
20 Q. They have nothing to do --
21 A. No, they are two different, two separate
23 Q. So what was in the fire brigade building?
24 A. Well, the same thing as in '91 and 1990.
25 Those were the premises of the fire brigade coffee shop
1 run by a Croat. I don't remember his name.
2 Q. So let me ask you: After the 8th of January,
3 '93, whose were the premises? Whose were the offices
4 in the fire brigade in Vitez?
5 A. As far as I know, nobody. I mean, of the
6 political or the police, nobody had offices there, as
7 far as I'm aware of.
8 Q. And the police that you worked for was in the
9 building next to it?
10 A. It was in the building next to it.
11 Q. And the fire brigade, before the beginning of
12 the conflict, were the Croats and Muslims represented
13 on a par?
14 A. That you would have to ask somebody from the
15 fire brigade because I was not a member of it.
16 Q. Do you know, after January '93, did Croats
17 continue to work in the fire brigade building?
18 A. Well, our fire brigade was on a voluntary
19 basis. There were no professional firemen.
20 Q. But did Croats come to the fire brigade
22 A. I had no time to really look at something
23 like that, but if they could come to our police station
24 to apply for a passport, then I guess they also went to
25 the fire brigade building. I really don't know that.
1 Q. Witness, let me ask you a direct question:
2 Did members of the BH army, on the 8th of January, '93,
3 if you remember, or at any time, if you remember, just
4 tell me "Yes" or "No," did they ever take over the fire
5 brigade building from the firemen?
6 A. As far as I'm aware, the command of the BH
7 army was right at the opposite end of Stari Vitez.
8 Q. That is true, but did they occupy this
9 building, tell me "Yes" or "No"?
10 A. I don't know. I'm not a member of the
11 Armija, so I don't know.
12 Q. But you were in the building next to it?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) I wish to
15 tender into evidence another document. Unfortunately,
16 this document has not been translated. We also ask for
17 it together with the record of the on-site
18 investigation. But this is a short document. Perhaps
19 it would be best to read it out. Perhaps we should
20 reserve a number and we shall subsequently submit the
21 translation. It is only one paragraph, some five or
22 six lines altogether.
23 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Make sure there is a
24 copy put on the ELMO for the interpreters.
25 MR. NICE: And for the Prosecution, if we may
1 have one directly?
2 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
3 THE REGISTRAR: (Interpretation) This is
4 Exhibit D6/2.
5 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Please, could
6 the other Defence team also get a copy? I omitted to
7 provide them with one.
8 Your Honours, I'm not sure what is the
9 fastest and simplest way to proceed, but I imagine that
10 the best thing would be for me to read this out slowly
11 so that we can hear the interpretation of this
13 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
14 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) The heading
15 says "The Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, the
16 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna, the Croatian
17 Defence Council, the Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade, the 2nd
18 Battalion, Vitez."
19 The date, 8th of January, 1993. That's the
20 date that you can see. And the document is entitled
21 "Official Note." The text reads as follows:
22 "On the 8th of January, 1993, at 12.45, I
23 was informed by the Military Police, the active force
24 of the Military Police from Vitez, over the telephone
25 that around 11.00, the members of the army of Bosnia
1 and Herzegovina --"
2 It is abbreviated here "the BH army."
3 "-- took the former premises of the fire
4 brigade of Vitez, namely, the upstairs premises and the
5 control room for the firemen from which the alert for
6 fires is sounded, and by virtue of that, they exercised
7 control over the vehicles of the fire brigade too."
8 The second paragraph reads as follows:
9 "On the basis of information received to
10 date, I know that all firemen are volunteers and that
11 there are only two Muslims among them, and all the rest
12 are Croats."
13 Above the signature, it says: "Notes made by
14 the commander of the 2nd Battalion, Vitez, Anto
16 Witness, tell me, please, yesterday you
17 mentioned that at one point in time the Croats wanted
18 to get the vehicles when there was a fire but that they
19 were not allowed to do so. What was all of that about?
20 A. When the explosive was planted in the
21 premises of the Privredna Banka bank office in Vitez,
22 to the best of my knowledge, Marijan Strukar, who was
23 commander -- I don't know exactly, I was not a member
24 of this voluntary fire brigade association, so I don't
25 know exactly what their chain of command is -- he tried
1 to take advantage of this explosion, although there
2 were no reports stating that there was a fire down
3 there or whatever. He got all of the vehicles of the
4 fire brigade out of the garages and took them down to
5 Vitez. That is on the basis of the information that I
7 Could I please comment on this official note
8 a bit?
9 Q. No. I'm going to put questions to you and
10 then --
11 A. But there are quite a few illogical things.
12 Q. Now you're going to answer my questions, and
13 my colleague, the Prosecutor, can ask you whatever you
14 wanted to be asked.
15 Yesterday, when you started your testimony,
16 you said that Pero Skopljak, chief of police, was
17 bringing in weapons from Herzegovina and that, in this
18 connection, Cosic objected to you and asked you why you
19 Muslims were not preparing for war too.
20 A. Well, that was the drift of it.
21 Q. Exactly. Exactly. That was the sense in
22 which this question was put. Could you tell us exactly
23 when this conversation took place, approximately?
24 A. On several occasions before I handed over the
1 Q. So that's the end of '91, the beginning of
3 A. Well, no, this was in '91.
4 Q. Yes, yes, '91. So it was around '91. Okay.
5 Did you already see on television then or in the
6 newspapers or did you know that the former JNA had
7 already attacked Slovenia, the war already started in
8 Croatia, and in the beginning of '92, there were
9 already problems in Bosnia? Were you aware of that
10 fact then?
11 A. I lived there.
12 Q. You lived in Vitez, in Central Bosnia. The
13 war had not reached that area yet.
14 A. But we watched the news.
15 Q. So you were aware of the war that was on the
17 A. Well, perhaps had a wise policy been pursued,
18 there would not have been a war. Macedonia did not
19 have a war.
20 Q. Well, that's your opinion.
21 A. Yes. It's your opinion too that war was on
22 the threshold. We do not know then what would happen.
23 That was the future.
24 Q. All right. I agree. Somebody had made this
25 assessment and somebody had not. I agree. But were
1 there any military preparations in Bosnia for the war
2 that would come?
3 A. Yes. Those states that were on the borders,
4 that is to say, Serbia and Croatia, helped their own
5 people. Unfortunately, we did not have that kind of a
7 Q. You were in charge of materiel and weapons at
8 that time, including the reserve force?
9 A. Yes. All the weapons and ammunition and
10 equipment were in my hands, yes.
11 Q. When were they handed out?
12 A. When the reserve police force was mobilised.
13 I don't know the exact date. These documents should be
14 in the Public Security Station if they did not destroy
15 the documents after they kicked us out.
16 Q. Can you at least give us an approximate time
17 for this?
18 A. There were so many events.
19 Q. All right.
20 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) I would like to
21 tender into evidence another document. This is only a
22 list, a list of names. I put the headings there myself
23 because there's nothing to translate. There are ten
24 words all together that should be translated, so I did
25 this myself by hand. Of course, this is an unofficial
1 translation, and later we shall add the translation to
2 it too.
3 Could the usher please assist?
4 THE REGISTRAR: (Interpreted) this is D7/2.
5 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation)
6 Q. Witness, I'm just going to ask you to take a
7 look at this list, the heading. Unfortunately, it
8 doesn't have a date; it doesn't have a signature. Tell
9 me, please, could this be one of the lists or the list
10 or a list related to the reserve police force that you
11 were talking about and that was issued weapons?
12 A. No. No, the papers I gave out were
14 Q. No. I did not mean the papers that you
15 personally gave out because I could not see that on any
16 basis. But when you look at the names, the serial
17 numbers, the models of weapons, could this be related
18 to the members of the reserve police force or part of
19 the reserve police force?
20 A. I cannot answer this question. I'm not sure.
21 Q. So this document doesn't say a thing to you?
22 A. It only says to me that the Muslims were
23 armed with these weapons, nothing else. And who made
24 this list, that, I do not know. Anybody could have
25 made this list.
1 Q. All right.
2 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) In this
3 connection, Your Honours, I would like the witness to
4 assist us in another matter. Could the usher please
5 show him a map, put a map in front of him?
6 THE REGISTRAR: (Interpreted) Exhibit D8/2.
7 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation)
8 Q. Witness, Mr. Zlotrg, before we look at the
9 map, in relation to this list of the reserve police,
10 all those names or almost all those names on the list,
11 could they be Muslim names?
12 A. They are all Muslim, as far as I can --
13 Q. All right. The majority, we could say.
14 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Your Honours, I
15 think I owe you an apology. This is my translation.
16 It's not really a translation. It's only here to help
17 us. In the glossary that the Prosecutor was so kind to
18 give us, all the acronyms, all the abbreviations used
19 in this document, that is, all these acronyms we see in
20 the middle column and which were indicating the type of
21 weapon, such as "PM" or "AP," and then in the last
22 column before figures, these letters "BK," all these
23 can be found in that glossary. I think I can explain
24 that, but I don't think there's any need for that,
25 because these are only types of armaments, and "BK"
1 means the combat set of ammunition, I believe, but you
2 can see it for yourselves.
3 Q. Let us now turn back to the map. The reserve
4 police, and bearing in mind this list and the villages
5 indicated there, could you use your marker --
6 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Mr. Usher, will
7 you please give a marker to the witness?
8 Q. Of course, nobody can remember all the
9 details, but to the best of your recollection, could
10 you please indicate places where the reserve force
11 units should have been deployed?
12 A. We had only two reserve police stations.
13 They are the premises of the Automotive Club in Vitez
14 at the station.
15 Q. You mean in the town itself?
16 A. No, down at the railway station.
17 Q. Could you perhaps show us where it is because
18 the map is rather large? Roughly, approximately, could
19 you just put a small red circle in that part of the
21 A. (Marks)
22 Q. And the second one was?
23 A. Just a moment. The second one was in the
24 elementary school in Bila, that is, at Divjak, at
25 Mecava, which should be somewhere here, the elementary
1 school. There were only two stations of the reserve
2 police force.
3 Q. Right. This plan of activity of the reserve
4 police force, did that plan envisage also some smaller
5 mobile teams which would only have a base at a
6 different road or place or somewhere?
7 A. I don't really know. It was not under my
9 Q. So you mean these places are physical bases.
10 I'm talking about armaments, you know, the equipment?
11 A. To those two places, I went for equipment and
12 armaments for members of these two police stations. If
13 I'm correct, the commander was Ivan Budimir, and he was
14 the one who signed the receipt, but I can't really
15 remember it all.
16 Q. But there was a distribution.
17 A. Yes, and there was equipment which was
18 [indiscernible] police station.
19 Q. You mentioned one of the commanders --
20 MR. NICE: The same problem has recurred,
21 there is no discrimination between "Question" and
22 "Answer," and LiveNote is concerned about its ability
23 to serve the Court and us properly, I think.
24 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, could you remember,
25 and Mr. Zlotrg, could you allow time for the
1 translation before you reply?
2 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) I do
3 apologise. I shall do my best.
4 Q. Mr. Zlotrg, you heard. We've both been
5 reprimanded, and the problem is that we are both
6 speaking the same language. So if I may try to sum up
7 where we went wrong, and will you please answer only
8 "Yes" or "No"?
9 From this part of the interview, it
10 transpired that you knew that there were two places as
11 seats of the reserve police, and those two places were
12 marked by you on the map, and you identify them
13 because, in view of your job, that is, the person
14 responsible for materiel and equipment, you took
15 weapons to them. Is the answer "Yes"?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. The second thing when we went too fast, you
18 are not aware of the further distribution or deployment
19 of groups or teams of the reserve police forces in the
20 territory of the municipality of Vitez?
21 A. Correct, I don't know.
22 Q. So you don't know. Thank you. I believe you
23 mentioned that at one of those places a reserve
24 policeman or, rather, the leader of that group or that
25 place was Mr. Budimir?
1 A. Yes, he was the commander of the reserve
2 police force in the elementary school which was at
3 Mecava, at Petar Mecava.
4 Q. Do you remember, how many weapons did you
5 give them, roughly, the order of magnitude?
6 A. Well, half of it went to each of the
7 stations, so I -- 50 per cent went to one station and
8 50 per cent to the other one.
9 Q. But the order of magnitude?
10 A. It went 50-50.
11 Q. Who was in the other station? I mean, what
13 A. I'm not quite sure. I know that for a while,
14 the commander was Mirsad Tatarevic, but whether he was
15 still there at that time, I don't know.
16 Q. If it was Mirsad -- I repeat, if it was
17 Mirsad -- do you know if he was a Muslim or a Croat?
18 A. Muslim. Budimir is a Croat. So just for
19 parity's sake, I presume that the other one was a
21 Q. Do you know, do you remember who was the
22 commander of the reserve police force?
23 A. They were directly subordinated to the
24 station commander, Mr. Saban Mahmutovic.
25 Q. Was it perhaps a military secret?
1 A. They wore uniforms around the town and
2 performed police business, so it was no secret. We are
3 public security.
4 Q. Let me remind you of the name Mirhad
5 Rebisic. Does that name ring a bell?
6 A. As for the -- you mean the work?
7 Q. No, no, no. I mean the post.
8 A. As for the police work, he had absolutely
9 nothing to do with us and he was not employed by the
10 Public Security Station.
11 Q. Yes, we know that. But was he perhaps
12 commander of the reserve police force?
13 A. I think I just told you. Mr. Budimir and
14 Tatarevic, they had only one commander and that was
15 Mr. Saban Mahmutovic.
16 Q. Mm-hmm. I see. So your commander.
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Let us go back to that disorder -- and that
19 is my interpretation at least -- in this situation in
20 Vitez in early 1993, and you told us something about
21 that yesterday.
22 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Your Honours,
23 we should like to introduce into evidence another
25 Mr. Usher, will you please help us?
1 There is a translation. Unfortunately, Judge
2 Bennouna, the French translation is missing, and I'm
3 quite positive that one or two have been translated
4 into French, but we shall submit them the moment we get
5 those translations. It is a simple document anyway.
6 THE REGISTRAR: This is document D9/2.
7 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, it's almost half
8 past twelve and we shall be adjourning then, so it may
9 be convenient when you've dealt with this document.
10 MR. KOVACIC: Yes, certainly. Providing, of
11 course, Your Honours, if I may just mention that there
12 should be a standard warning that there will not be
13 contact between the Prosecution and the witness since I
14 already offered the document.
15 JUDGE MAY: Do you want to deal -- why don't
16 you deal with the document briefly?
17 MR. KOVACIC: I will really briefly and I
18 will leave it. As the document is, I would just ask:
19 Q. (Interpretation) Did you have time to look
20 through this document? Just to be sure that you
21 understand the document, let me just tell you the
22 subject of this document.
23 A. The problems the police faced in relation to
24 some crimes.
25 Q. Is that your impression, when reading this
1 document, that the author of the document is worried
2 about the crime rate in the municipality?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Another question: Is the person who
5 undersigned this document -- unfortunately, it seems
6 that we lost it in copying -- but is that that same
7 Ivan Budimir who was the reserve policeman? Is that
8 again him?
9 A. I guess so because I do not know any other
10 Ivan Budimir.
11 Q. So can we reasonably conclude that the
12 reserve policeman is writing the report and is dealing
13 with crime in the --
14 A. He is the commander of the reserve police
15 force and he has not been appointed head of the police
16 by accident and who was trained to do this kind of
18 Q. I see. Thank you. Is he a Croat?
19 A. Yes.
20 MR. KOVACIC: [No translation]
21 JUDGE MAY: Let me ask you this: Do you
22 anticipate being very much longer with this witness,
23 Mr. Kovacic?
24 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, I guess I will be
25 able to close within one hour, perhaps a little bit
1 more than an hour. But it's really difficult. I mean,
2 don't catch me for word. That's my best estimate.
3 JUDGE MAY: Because he clearly should be able
4 to leave as early as possible. I don't know whether
5 the other Defence lawyers are going to be very long
6 with this witness.
7 MR. STEIN: I will be paring it down over the
8 weekend, but at least 45 minutes.
9 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Mr. Nice?
10 MR. NICE: Following on yesterday's issue, it
11 might be desirable to have a one-minute, whatever it's
12 called, private session now, which is easy to
13 accomplish, so that the record is complete.
14 JUDGE MAY: As far as the witness is
15 concerned, he is released. You don't want him to
17 MR. NICE: No, certainly.
18 JUDGE MAY: There is one matter briefly I
19 want to ...
20 Mr. Zlotrg, I'm sorry you have got to remain
21 here over a long weekend. Could you be back on Monday
22 at 3.00, and I hope we shall be able to finish your
24 Remember, please, not to speak to anybody, of
25 course, about it. If you would like to go now?
1 (The witness withdrew)
2 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, before we go into
3 private session, or as we go in, could you let us know
4 this: We asked at one stage for a revised list of
5 witnesses, pruned down, we anticipated. We are anxious
6 to get to this area of our work and we need your
7 document. When are you likely to have it?
8 (Private session)
18 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
19 12.30 p.m., to be reconvened on Monday,
20 the 3rd day of May, 1999, at 3.00 p.m.