1 Wednesday, 12th May, 1999
2 (Open session)
3 (The accused entered court)
4 (The witness entered court)
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.50 a.m.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.
7 Case number IT-95-14/2-T, the Prosecutor versus Dario
8 Kordic and Mario Cerkez.
9 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Kovacic.
10 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you, Your Honour.
11 I should like to begin by tendering into
12 evidence, and I should like the usher to distribute the
13 list of the staff of the health centre in Vitez that we
14 spoke about yesterday. It has been translated.
15 THE REGISTRAR: This document will be marked
17 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) This is the
18 document we discussed yesterday, we finished, and we
19 just added the English translation.
20 May I continue, Your Honour?
21 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
22 WITNESS: MUHAMED MUJEZINOVIC (Resumed)
23 Cross-examined by Mr. Kovacic:
24 Q. Good morning, Mr. Mujezinovic. I hope you
25 had a good rest after yesterday. Now, will you please
1 -- and let us try to be as brief as possible, because
2 we have only half an hour to complete this, so will you
3 please answer me just "yes" or "no," just to speed
4 matters up.
5 After you left the room in which you saw
6 Cerkez and other persons that you mentioned, and then
7 you went back after working on the statement with
8 Cilic, did you see Cerkez in the building again that
10 A. No.
11 Q. Thank you. After that, early in the morning,
12 there was a meeting with Mr. Santic and Mr. Skopljak
13 and you and other colleagues that you had invited from
14 the cellar; is that true?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. At that meeting, you talked, and on one side
17 there were eminent Bosniak citizens from Vitez, and on
18 the other side were Mr. Santic and Mr. Skopljak; is
19 that correct?
20 A. Yes, and Zvonko and -- Jozic.
21 Q. I see. So it was Jozic and Cilic who also
22 attended the meeting in addition to Santic and
23 Skopljak. You perceived Santic and Skopljak as
24 representatives of the civilian structure of the HVO;
25 is that so?
1 A. As the representatives of HDZ politics in
3 Q. Thank you. Could we then move on to
4 something else. As a physician, and as a physician who
5 is under legal obligation, and you were even called an
6 HVO physician, have you had an opportunity of examining
7 the internees in the cinema except on that occasion
8 when you said that you had to go and choose the
10 A. I don't really understand what you mean by
12 Q. I mean people who were imprisoned in the
13 cinema, that is, in the cellar.
14 A. I remember a case, his jaw was broken, and he
15 was in the cinema. There was a commission set up which
16 went there and examined those detained people. I was
17 not on that commission. It was Dr. Enisa Mulalic, Rado
18 Savanovic, Dr. Tibold, were its members. I don't know
19 who else, but I did not go there to that location to
20 examine them.
21 MR. KOVACIC: May I now tender another
22 document. There is a note about that examination, so I
23 should like to look at that. Will the usher please
24 help me?
25 THE REGISTRAR: D20/2.
1 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation)
2 Q. Doctor, could you have a look at that?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. In the upper right corner, it is handwritten,
5 but in capital letters, "Tibold, Dr. Franjo." Is that
6 the doctor that you just mentioned?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Can you recognise his signature? I suppose
9 you knew it because you worked together as doctors and
10 exchanged documentations.
11 A. Yes, he was a director for a while, and this
12 is his signature.
13 Q. It is his signature?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And we have the title down there which you
16 have just mentioned, president of the medical
17 commission of the HVO, Vitez.
18 A. I suppose he was, but I don't really know
19 which one. There was -- Franjo was more experienced;
20 he was an epidemiologist. It is quite possible that he
21 was the president.
22 Q. Right. Doctor, tell us, since on the top of
23 that sheet, right below the first line, it says "Mensus
24 Aganovic," and then it is indicated "went home," and
25 somebody's signature. And then it says, "Send home
1 26th of April." Do you know, have you had the
2 opportunity of seeing or hearing one of those people?
3 Were they really released, some of the people from that
4 list? Do you know anything about that?
5 A. Will you tell me -- whom do you mean?
6 Q. I mean all of them, any one from 1 to 22.
7 Only the one on the top has nothing to do with this,
9 A. When I was in the cellar, I called Zvonko
10 Cilic. I knew all those people, and I knew their
11 diagnosis, and I did recommend that some 20 of them be
12 released, because they were chronic patients, and the
13 conditions there were impossible. And I told also
14 Dr. Franjo Tibold, but I really do not know which one
15 of them was released. I know that Dr. Enisa Mulalic
16 refused to go on working because they would not accept
17 her recommendations. She was a Muslim and worked in
19 Q. Thank you. So you advised that some be
20 released because you knew them. Does any of those
21 names figure here, or were they 20 others?
22 A. Well, for instance, Latif Dzoferovic suffered
23 from tuberculosis or, rather, chronic bronchitis.
24 Q. Will you give us just the number?
25 A. It is Number 1 on the list. Zijad Puric,
1 number 10, he had heart valves implanted. Safet
2 Malkic, 11, was suffering from gout. Alihodja Atif was
3 suffering from asthma, from -- number 12, he was
4 suffering from asthma. Fikret Kablar, it was -- he was
5 in a post-infarction period. He is a young man. It is
6 number 15. Harun Sulevic, number 18, formerly suffered
7 from a stroke. We say that he suffered from a
8 cerebrovascular insult.
9 Q. Right. So there are various patients of that
10 kind. Another question related to this document --
11 A. Dr. Jusuf Mehmedovic also suffered from
12 severe bronchitis and was allergic to all medicines.
13 Q. That is number 22?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you. But will you just keep the
16 document, please, for a while.
17 Look at this paper down below 22 at the
18 bottom. It says "approved," and then the signature
19 looks like "Pero Skopljak." Do you know Pero
20 Skopljak's signature, since you saw documents that he
21 perhaps signed and worked with him? Can you tell us
22 something about that?
23 A. Well, I guess this is Pero Skopljak's
24 signature. After all, seven years have passed by, but
25 I suppose that is his signature.
1 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Thank you.
2 Usher, you can take these documents away from the
4 Q. Dr. Mujezinovic, will you please tell us,
5 when you left Vitez and went to Zenica, did you have
6 any contact with your wife, I mean by telephone,
7 because she had stayed in Vitez?
8 A. Yes, I did, but only from the police station,
9 that is, the civilian police station in Vitez.
10 Q. In other words, she called from the civilian
11 police station?
12 A. Yes. She called me once from a Croat woman
13 and told me that all -- that the telephone was being
14 bugged and that somebody was listening to all that she
15 was saying.
16 Q. But tell us, Doctor, did she ever call you or
17 did you call her? But I suppose it was she who called
18 you perhaps from the building of the Workers'
19 University, from the command of the brigade.
20 A. My wife told me that she had tried to talk to
21 Pero Skopljak and Mario Cerkez, and that Mario Cerkez
22 told her that I was no man at all, how could I leave
23 the family, and what had I done, I mean, to leave and
24 to leave my family back in Vitez.
25 Q. But he allowed her to telephone?
1 A. I don't think it was Mario Cerkez. I think
2 she told me that it was another Croat, Markisa Rujic,
3 who took her into his office and allowed her to call
5 Q. Did she perhaps tell you that Zvonko Cilic
6 organised it so that she could call you from the
8 A. No, she told me that Mirko Samija, who was
9 the chief of the civilian police in Vitez, was the one
10 who made it possible for her to make her call from the
11 civilian police in Vitez.
12 Q. Thank you. Now, since we're on this subject,
13 why did you leave your family and go to Zenica? Yes,
14 you told us how it was, but still how did you -- where
15 did you find the courage to do it, since you must have
16 been aware and you told us that considerable chaos
17 reigned in Vitez?
18 A. I received threats, and I said that
19 [indiscernible], the man who told me that, that there
20 was an order to have me killed, I told him that I could
21 not leave the Vitez --
22 JUDGE MAY: This is cross-examination.
23 MR. SAYERS: I object to that question for
24 the same reasons as the information was attempted to be
25 elicited on direct examination. In cross-examination,
1 it doesn't make the evidence any more or less reliable,
2 Your Honour, and we're not bound by any questions, I
3 believe, that Mr. Kovacic asks.
4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, counsel has a
5 point. Do you want to pursue this line of
7 MR. KOVACIC: Well, actually I think that it
8 wasn't a question problem. The answer was the problem,
9 because the witness is not answering the question. But
10 I can put it a different way. No problem.
11 JUDGE MAY: Very well.
12 MR. KOVACIC:
13 Q. Please let us not get into these procedural
14 problems. Will you tell me another thing? Was that
15 the first threat that you received, just "Yes" or "No"?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. The first threat?
18 A. The first threat ever since I began to work
19 there again on the 19th of April onward.
20 Q. Was that the first threat in 1993?
21 A. I said that there was a verbal threat, but
22 nothing particular, but that was the first serious
23 threat which was communicated to me directly,
25 Q. Right. So you went to Zenica. Edib Zlotrg,
1 you said he was a liaison officer. Was he involved in
2 the exchange?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Yes. Thank
5 you. Could we now see video 2, please? (In English)
6 Let us play one short excerpt. It's about 10 or 15
7 seconds, just the one scene I would like the witness to
8 recognise, if possible.
9 JUDGE MAY: Has he got a transcript?
10 MR. KOVACIC: There's no text, just a
12 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Play the video.
13 (Videotape played)
14 JUDGE MAY: Now, I thought you said there was
15 no text.
16 MR. KOVACIC: That is the picture we need, so
17 it's --
18 JUDGE MAY: This one?
19 MR. KOVACIC: Yes. All the rest is
21 JUDGE MAY: All right. You want it to be
22 played from here?
23 MR. KOVACIC: Right, and I would like the
24 technician to slow down the text, because there is a
25 comment which has nothing to do with it, with the scene
1 we see. He's talking about hospitals.
2 JUDGE MAY: Right. Well, let them know what
3 you want.
4 MR. KOVACIC: Okay, thank you. Enough. We
5 saw what we wanted.
6 Q. Doctor, do you recognise, we saw it
7 yesterday, also the building of the craft centre where
8 you had the health centre; was that it?
9 A. Yes, that's where it was.
10 Q. Can you recognise this damage done to the
11 roof? Was it an explosion?
12 A. When I was there, there was no damage.
13 Q. So this didn't happen while you were there?
14 A. No.
15 Q. But did you then afterwards hear that the
16 roof of the building was hit?
17 A. I heard that a shell had fallen in the
18 vicinity, in the neighbourhood of that building, but I
19 heard about it when the war was over.
20 Q. And this craft centre is in the heart of the
22 A. Well, that whole centre is within that block
23 of buildings. Well, I mean it is a craft centre, so it
24 is -- there were many shops there, and I heard that a
25 coffee shop had been hit during the war. But I learned
1 about that later, that in that block of buildings or
2 outlets, one shop had been hit.
3 Q. All right, thank you. Just one more
4 question, and that will be it.
5 I'm referring to the communication of the
6 coordinating committee, and I'm not going into it, but
7 it referred to the language that was to be used in
8 schools. Do you know what I'm referring to, Doctor?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. So will you please tell me just one thing?
11 Which language, that is, the previous school year,
12 which language was used in schools in the municipality
13 of Vitez during the previous school year?
14 A. Well, that language was called
16 Q. Or --
17 A. Croato-Serbian.
18 Q. At that time, was there some form of that
19 common language, if I may say so, in the territory of
20 the former Yugoslavia which was used in Bosnia? Was
21 there another official name to refer to Bosnia?
22 A. Formerly, the authorities -- that is, prior
23 to 1990, the authorities did not approve officially
24 that it be called the Bosnian language.
25 Q. Right, thank you. And will you tell us,
1 please, textbooks, school textbooks, were evidently
2 books which were published during the SFRY which no
3 longer existed, which had become obsolete; is that
5 A. Well, textbooks were published, as far as I
6 know, because I'm not an educator and I did not really
7 pay much attention to that. But there was the
8 publishing house Svijetlost, in Sarajevo. There were
9 the curricula adopted by the government of the Republic
10 of Bosnia-Herzegovina applicable throughout the
11 territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
12 Q. But tell us, did you have an opportunity to
13 hear that people were protesting against those
14 textbooks, which were crammed with facts and knowledge
15 about the former Yugoslavia and so on and so forth?
16 Were people protesting against it?
17 A. Do you mean educators?
18 Q. I mean not only educators, all the educated
19 people, I mean all the people involved with education.
20 Your children are already big. I mean they are out of
22 A. Well, that is not true. My son is now 18 and
23 a half.
24 Q. So, did you, as a parent --
25 A. Well, I do think there were some protests,
1 but I don't really know much about that. I know that
2 some people were against it. I think that sometime in
3 September, the HVO introduced the curriculum of the
4 Republic of Croatia in Vitez, and I know that the
5 Bosniak side protested against that.
6 Also, a teacher, Arifa Tunovic, was killed in
8 Q. Let's stick to our topic.
9 A. And, no, I mean because of linguistic
10 problems, because she was the teacher of the mother
11 tongue. And from what I heard, I think she refused to
12 switch to the Croatian language.
13 Q. Right, right. But will you please just
14 confirm the following or deny? The textbooks that
15 existed at the time, and we're referring to 1993, they
16 were obviously published during the ex-Yugoslavia,
17 which at that time did not exist and which was the
19 A. I really don't know if all the textbooks were
20 published, so in all likelihood, they all were
21 published then.
22 Q. Doctor, just wait. Do you really believe
23 that during that chaos of 1992, any textbook would be
24 published in the territory of Bosnia or Croatia?
25 A. I believe this was very difficult.
1 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Okay, Doctor.
2 Thank you very much for your testimony, and I'm sorry
3 if I bored you, but you've come here to help all of us.
4 Thank you very much.
5 A. Thank you.
6 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) I have no
7 further questions.
8 Cross-examined by Mr. Sayers.
9 Q. Good morning, Dr. Mujezinovic. My name is
10 Steve Sayers, and I'm from Alexandria, Virginia. I
11 represent Dario Kordic, and I have just a few questions
12 for you today.
13 Since I'm not speaking in your language, I
14 don't want to give the interpreters fits, and I've been
15 told that I tend to speak a little quickly, so it would
16 help if you would answer the questions "Yes" or "No,"
17 or as short as possible, and we'll be through with you
18 as soon as we can.
19 Is that all right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Now, as I understand it, Dr. Mujezinovic,
22 you've actually given four separate statements to the
23 Prosecutors over the course of your involvement with
24 these cases, spanning, it looks like, a four-year
1 A. I think I did.
2 Q. The first statement you gave on March the
3 1st, 1995; right?
4 A. Yes. I made this first statement in 1993. I
5 don't remember the exact date.
6 Q. All right. The first one that we have from
7 you is actually dated March the 1st, 1995, Dr.
8 Mujezinovic. Are you saying that you actually made an
9 earlier statement to the Prosecutors in 1993?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Who did you give a statement to in 1993,
13 A. To the investigators of the Tribunal from The
14 Hague, from this Tribunal.
15 Q. That was in 1993, was it?
16 A. No, no, in 1995.
17 Q. All right. That was just a translation
19 The second statement that you gave to the
20 Office of the Prosecutor was over a three-day period
21 from January 13th -- sorry, July the 13th to July the
22 16th, 1995; is that correct?
23 A. As far as I can recollect, I gave three
24 statements in the course of 1995.
25 Q. All right. We only have two of them. The
1 second one that we have is from July the 13th through
2 July the 16th, 1995. Do you recall giving statements
3 to the Prosecutors during that period of time and
4 having them reduced to writing and actually signing
5 that statement as a truthful and accurate version of
6 what had happened?
7 A. No, I was extremely dissatisfied with the
8 translation into Bosnian, and I requested certain
9 corrections to be made, which were never made or,
10 rather, I don't know whether they were made.
11 Q. But you signed that statement as being
12 factually accurate, didn't you, Doctor?
13 A. Yes, but in agreement that corrections be
14 made, because I was not satisfied with the translation.
15 Q. All right. Well, when did you make those
16 corrections to the incorrect statement that you had
18 A. I really don't know.
19 Q. Do you know whether any corrections were made
20 to that inaccurate statement, sir, ever?
21 A. No.
22 Q. All right. The next statement you gave to
23 the Prosecutors was on February the 3rd of 1997; right,
25 A. I said that as far as I can remember, it was
1 in 1995. I think there were three statements, but I'm
2 not sure; two or three.
3 THE INTERPRETER: Would the counsel please
4 speak into the microphone?
5 MR. SAYERS: Yes, sorry.
6 Q. I believe the Trial Chamber has been
7 presented with an assembled package of all of your
8 statements, Dr. Mujezinovic, and one of them, the third
9 one, in fact, is actually dated February the 3rd of
10 1997. Do you remember giving that statement to
11 Mr. Gregory Kehoe, assisted by Lejla Avdagic?
12 A. Yes, I do remember that I made a statement in
13 1997 in the office of the Tribunal in Sarajevo, in
15 Q. And that was actually a few months before you
16 gave testimony in the Blaskic case; correct?
17 A. I think so.
18 Q. But you didn't point out the factual errors
19 that were contained in your July 1995 statement in that
20 February the 3rd, 1997 statement, did you?
21 A. I was always complaining about it. Two days
22 ago, I complained here that the translation wasn't
24 Q. And the fourth written statement that you
25 gave to the Office of the Prosecutor, Dr. Mujezinovic,
1 was six months after you had testified in the Blaskic
2 case, and it was given on March the 14th, 1998, to an
3 individual named Spork; is that correct?
4 A. I don't know. If that is what it says, it's
5 probably correct. As far as I can remember, I made
6 statements in '95 and '97.
7 Q. Would it assist you to see the statement that
8 you signed on March the 14th, 1998, to jog your memory
9 as to whether you had actually made that statement?
10 A. Yes.
11 MR. SAYERS: If I may, Your Honour, I believe
12 you already have the English and the Croatian, and I
13 have an extra copy here for the witness, if that
14 would --
15 JUDGE MAY: Yes, let the witness have the
17 MR. SAYERS: Yes, sir.
18 Q. Next question, Dr. Mujezinovic: Is that an
19 accurate copy of your signature on the bottom of the
20 first page of the English version of your March the
21 14th, 1998, statement to the Prosecutors?
22 A. Yes, this is my signature.
23 Q. You didn't point out the factual inaccuracies
24 in the July 1995 statement to the Prosecutors anywhere
25 in that statement, did you, sir?
1 A. I must repeat once again that I did complain
2 of the poor quality of the translations, and I don't
3 know what it says here in the English version.
4 Q. Do you remember, sir, in the Blaskic case, on
5 August the 20th, 1997, being shown a copy of your July
6 1995 statement by Mr. Hayman?
7 A. No. This was two years ago. I think I spent
8 three days in the courtroom. I was shown quite a
9 number of these texts in the courtroom, as I have been
10 shown yesterday and today, my statements, video
11 recordings. I don't know exactly what he showed me.
12 Q. Very well. Perhaps we can be of assistance.
13 MR. SAYERS: With the Trial Chamber's
14 permission, I have actually prepared little excerpt of
15 the relevant cross-examination on this particular
16 statement, and I think it will be of great assistance
17 to the Trial Chamber in evaluating the --
18 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, what is it that this
19 is leading to?
20 MR. SAYERS: It's leading to this, Your
21 Honour, if I can just precise this: Basically,
22 Mr. Hayman pointed out that there was a reference made
23 in the July 1995 statement that Dr. Mujezinovic had
24 supposedly given, and he pointed out in that statement
25 that Mr. Darko Kraljevic, supposedly, was being treated
1 by him as a result of a drug-induced psychosis, that he
2 was suffering from an overdose of cocaine, and that
3 treatment was given to him in that regard. That's
4 exactly what the statement says on page 4, I believe.
5 Dr. Mujezinovic, when confronted with that
6 statement, it was said -- I think he used the word
7 "absurd," factually inaccurate, that he pointed out
8 that inaccuracy to the Prosecutor's representatives who
9 had actually taken that statement and was told, "Don't
10 worry about it."
11 If I may, I'd just like to address a question
12 to the witness to see if that jogs his memory at all
13 about that particular exchange, and if it doesn't, I
14 have the relevant exchange here in black and white for
15 him to --
16 THE INTERPRETER: Would you please slow down,
17 Mr. Sayers.
18 JUDGE MAY: The witness has heard what it is
19 that you are going to put, and perhaps he can deal with
20 it straightaway.
21 Do you remember that, Doctor, being put in
22 the Blaskic trial, and giving those answers?
23 A. Yes, Your Honours. I said at the time that
24 we doctors may suspect something, but in order to prove
25 it, and to establish a firm diagnosis, we need to have
1 sound arguments. I may have had my doubts, but I
2 wasn't absolutely specific about it, and I did not say
3 this. I complained about it. I also said that no
4 nurse could make such a statement either.
5 MR. SAYERS: Well, since that goes to an
6 issue in the case, I would like to have this exchange
7 marked as an exhibit for future reference, Your Honour,
8 if I may.
9 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
10 MR. SAYERS: Thank you.
11 THE REGISTRAR: This is D16/1.
12 MR. SAYERS:
13 Q. Do you read or understand English at all,
14 Dr. Mujezinovic?
15 A. I understand English to be able to read
16 medical literature, but I know very little English, in
18 Q. All right, Dr. Mujezinovic. You actually
19 pointed out on page 1816 that the translation was, in
20 your view, absurd?
21 JUDGE MAY: Where is this in our transcripts,
23 MR. SAYERS: I think it's page 1816, Your
24 Honour. If you take a look at -- the page numbers are
25 actually in the middle of the pages; it's actually
1 three pages in. The answer begins on Line 21.
2 Q. But I think the point you were making,
3 Dr. Mujezinovic, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the
4 point you were making to the Prosecutors is, when you
5 saw this, you actually told them that this was an
6 incorrect factual statement, this statement that was
7 supposedly contained in the statement regarding
8 Mr. Darko Kraljevic. Is that correct?
9 A. As far as I can remember, I have already said
10 that I protested, but it is customary in medicine for
11 us to have a working diagnosis, but to be able to have
12 an exact diagnosis, it is not customary except if we
13 have some firm confirmation: Laboratory tests, EKG,
14 x-rays, ultrasound tests, and so on. Only once we have
15 those tests can we establish the official diagnosis. I
16 didn't have a laboratory to be able to make those
17 tests. I may have had my suspicions, because my
18 colleagues suspected, as I said, that this was a heart
19 attack, but it obviously was not.
20 Q. I understand, Dr. Mujezinovic. I think that
21 we are like two ships passing in the night here a
22 little bit. I think my question was, had you pointed
23 this factual inaccuracy out to the Prosecutors before
24 you were actually asked to sign this statement?
25 A. I complained to the Prosecutors about the
1 translation and explained that I could not have said
2 that explicitly. I didn't say what I saw written, and
3 as far as I can remember, the Prosecution told me that
4 the corrections would be made.
5 Q. Do you know whether they ever were?
6 A. I really don't know.
7 Q. Did you know that that statement had actually
8 been presented to the Trial Chamber and referred to in
9 a road map of your testimony, at least what the Office
10 of the Prosecutor expected your testimony to be,
11 without those corrections having been made?
12 A. I don't understand the question, I'm afraid.
13 Q. Did you know that an uncorrected copy of your
14 July 1995 statement had been presented to the Trial
15 Chamber and referred to in a little outline of what the
16 Prosecutor had expected your testimony to be?
17 A. I denied that in the courtroom, and I said
18 what I have just said to you.
19 Q. Well, let's move on a little. You were asked
20 some questions by the Prosecutor about this fellow,
21 Darko Kraljevic, and the HOS troops that he commanded.
22 And in response to a question from Judge Bennouna, I
23 believe, you made reference to the fact that the HOS
24 was the military arm of a party called the Croatian
25 Party of Rights, or the HSP. Do you recall that
2 A. Yes, I do. As far as I know, that was the
3 military arm of the Croatian Party of Rights.
4 Q. Right. And the HSP is a completely distinct
5 and separate political party from the HDZ; you would
6 agree with that, wouldn't you?
7 A. I was not familiar with the programme, but
8 they are two different parties.
9 Q. All right. Now, did I understand you to say
10 that you treated Mr. Kraljevic prior to the time that
11 you acquired these statements that you've related to
12 the Trial Chamber, you treated him for suspected
13 alcohol toxicity by intravenous injections of the drug
15 A. I didn't put it like that.
16 Q. Well, did you treat him for suspected alcohol
17 toxicity with the drug diazepam, sir? "Yes" or "no"?
18 A. I said that he was given diazepam
19 intramuscularly and that he was given an injection for
20 detoxification with alcohol.
21 Q. The trade name of diazepam is actually
22 Valium, isn't it?
23 A. Yes. Diazepam. I don't know whether it's
24 called valium in America. We call it diazepam or
25 apaurin. I don't know what its name is in America.
1 Q. But the point is it's a central nervous
2 system depressant, isn't it, just like alcohol?
3 A. No, it's a drug to treat anxiety, which
5 Q. So one would feel, within a short period of
6 time from having been injected with this drug, a sense
7 of euphoria; right?
8 A. No, quite the opposite.
9 Q. Well, you stated, sir, that it was in the
10 course of these sessions when he was having injections
11 -- and I'm quoting now from page 50 of the LiveNote,
12 at lines 15 to 22: In the course of these sessions
13 when he was having injections, then he would relate to
14 you the conversations that he was having with Messrs.
15 Skopljak, Valenta, and Cerkez. Is that true?
16 A. Yes, that is what I said, that he was
17 particularly referring to Pero Skopljak and Anto
18 Valenta, and yesterday I said that he would
19 occasionally talk to Cerkez as well.
20 Q. Well, Doctor, let's get to the heart of the
21 matter. In your view, this gentleman was
22 psychologically unstable, explosive, I believe, to use
23 your word. Is that correct?
24 A. I said that he could be explosive at times,
25 that his moods would change, that he was a man who was
1 unpredictable, his reactions were unpredictable, and in
2 my opinion, I said that he was rather unstable, that he
3 didn't have a firm character, in the sense that if he
4 took a decision, that he would really stick to it.
5 This was a young man, full of strength and energy, and
6 he wanted to assert himself. That is my understanding
7 of him. A good-looking young man, well built,
9 Q. Well, do you remember testifying two years
10 ago that this was not a stable person
11 psychologically? "With such people you cannot foresee
12 what their next reaction will be. He was
13 psychologically unstable, explosive"?
14 A. For two days I have been repeating the same
15 thing. I really don't know what you want of me.
16 Q. You agree that you did say that two years
17 ago, in the Blaskic case, when you were talking on the
18 subject of Mr. Kraljevic?
19 MR. NICE: I wonder if Mr. Sayers could
20 provide the page reference. It's not in the transcript
21 that he has provided.
22 MR. SAYERS: Yes, I can show the witness the
23 pages I want. It's page 1826 and 1827 of the Blaskic
24 trial transcript.
25 JUDGE MAY: Perhaps, Mr. Sayers, we can get
1 through this as rapidly as possible. There's no need
2 to put to the witness whether he remembers saying
3 things. He may well not. It's perfectly
4 understandable. If you want to refer to specific items
5 in the evidence, you can do so.
6 MR. SAYERS: I don't want to waste time and
7 flog a dead horse, Your Honour, in the interest of
8 expediency, but let me just see if I can jog his
10 Q. Do you remember saying, sir, in response to
11 cross-examination on August the 21st, that
12 Mr. Kraljevic was not a stable person psychologically?
13 A. I said that in my opinion, he was an unstable
14 person. In my opinion.
15 Q. But you agree that you gave that testimony
16 two years ago?
17 A. As far as I can recollect, I said that in my
18 opinion, he was an unstable person of whom you never
19 knew how he would react at a particular time. That was
20 my opinion as a doctor, as a man, as an individual, as
21 far as I knew him.
22 Allow me to say that I knew Darko Kraljevic
23 just as somebody from Vitez, a young, well-built man
24 who wanted to be important. I didn't have much contact
25 with him. I didn't treat him before. I went to treat
1 his family members, his grandmother, grandfather, but
2 Darko Kraljevic had not consulted me, at least, for any
3 health problems.
4 Q. All right. Now, it's true, isn't it, that
5 the troops under the command of this psychologically
6 stable (sic) or explosive individual were responsible
7 for much of the criminal activity, at least in your
8 view, that was going on in Vitez in the first -- over
9 the latter half of 1992 and the first part of 1993; is
10 that correct?
11 A. As far as I know, there has to be an order
12 for all military operations. Now, who issued the
13 orders, I really don't know.
14 Q. All right. Do you recall, sir, giving
15 testimony either yesterday or the day before to the
16 effect that at some point, the HOS troops became
17 incorporated into the HVO?
18 A. Yes, they changed their name. They became a
19 special purpose unit called the Vitezovi.
20 Q. Do you know --
21 A. And this was announced in public, on local
22 television, that Darko Kraljevic had been promoted to
23 the commander of that unit with the rank of colonel.
24 Until then, as far as I can recollect, people were not
25 going around with ranks. There were former JNA
1 officers -- we mentioned one of them yesterday,
2 Filipovic. I think he was a Lieutenant-Colonel in the
3 former JNA, or a Major, I'm not quite sure -- but in
4 any event, then there was Ramiz Dugalic in Vitez who
5 was a major in the former JNA. There were captains who
6 came and said that they held such-and-such a rank.
7 Regarding ranks, this was the first time I heard that
8 ranks were being introduced into the HVO.
9 Q. I think you would agree, doctor, that these
10 were turbulent times, both from a military perspective
11 and a perspective of society in general, with the
12 break-up of the former communist state of Yugoslavia,
13 the secession of various constituent republics, and a
14 state of civil war being threatened in the first part
15 of 1991; isn't that correct?
16 A. In the first half of '91?
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. There was war in Croatia then, and in Vitez,
19 we were afraid that it might spill over into
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina. At that time, and I said so
21 yesterday, the crisis staff was set up in Vitez
22 precisely because of that, because the immediate danger
23 of war and difficulties with communications,
24 difficulties with regular supplies of citizens, and the
25 situation was difficult.
1 Q. All right. Well, let's try to approach this
2 chronologically. It's true, I believe, that the Croats
3 and the Muslims voted overwhelmingly at a national
4 referendum held on February the 29th, 1992, and March
5 the 1st, 1992, in favour of the establishment of a
6 newly independent state of Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that
7 correct? You would agree with that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And this newly independent state, sir, was
10 born in an atmosphere of impending civil war, wasn't
12 A. Yes, the Serb Democratic Party in the
13 assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina or, rather, its
14 president, threatened -- we saw it on television -- he
15 threatened that if Bosnia and Herzegovina were
16 recognised as an independent state or republic, then
17 the Serb people would not accept that and that they
18 would fight against it.
19 Q. And I believe that the state of
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina was declared to be independent on
21 March the 3rd of 1991, just two days after the
22 conclusion of the national referendum; is that correct?
23 A. Possibly. I know it was the former half of
24 1991, after the referendum in Bosnia-Herzegovina, when
25 the Croats and Muslims, Bosniaks, voted almost
1 100 per cent for an autonomous republic. There were
2 also some Serbs, but very few and far between.
3 Q. All right. I think I may have misspoken,
4 Dr. Mujezinovic. I said 1991, but it was actually
5 1992, wasn't it, when the Republic of
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina was declared?
7 A. Yes, yes, I don't think -- it was '92, yes.
8 Q. If I may, I just have a few documents that I
9 would like to go over with you that track fairly
10 chronologically, and I have put together these
11 documents in chronological order for the Bench, the
12 Prosecutor, you, and co-counsel, if I may.
13 THE INTERPRETER: Could the documents be
14 placed on the ELMO, please, for the benefit of the
16 THE REGISTRAR: The bundle will be marked
18 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, we were saying to the
19 Registrar that it really is very hot in here, and I
20 suspect that everybody is feeling it. Therefore, we've
21 requested to move to the other court, and we'll see if
22 we can do it by the break, if possible, or after the
24 MR. SAYERS: I thought I was experiencing the
25 signs of premature ageing, Your Honour, in all candour.
1 Q. The first document, Dr. Mujezinovic, just to
2 bring the Trial Chamber up to speed, appears to be a
3 decree issued by the presidency of the brand-new State
4 of Bosnia-Herzegovina, within actually about a month of
5 its establishment, with a state of imminent threat of
7 THE INTERPRETER: Could it be placed on the
8 ELMO, please, for the interpreters?
9 MR. SAYERS: Usher, if you would place that
10 on the ELMO for the interpreters, I've just received a
11 request for that, although we're not going to spend
12 very much time on this.
13 Q. There's really only one question, Dr.
14 Mujezinovic. You do recall this decree being issued by
15 the presidency of the newly-independent republic?
16 A. Let me see. Yes, I do remember. It was
17 announced on television, broadcast on radio. There was
18 a lot of talk about it at the time. I mean it wasn't
19 only me who knew about this. Any person who could read
20 and write and who would listen knew about this.
21 Q. Right. I totally agree with that. In April
22 of 1992, that's when Sarajevo was surrounded and the
23 town of Bijeljina was attacked by Serbian forces;
25 A. I don't know the exact date, but it is
1 correct that Sarajevo was attacked, and Bijeljina too,
2 1992. The first half; April, most probably.
3 Q. Is it fair to say that as of April of 1992
4 and proceeding throughout, really, the rest of 1992 and
5 1993, notwithstanding your views as to the previous
6 ethnic harmony, if you like, between the three
7 constituent peoples of Bosnia-Herzegovina for the
8 decades before, a state of vicious civil war existed?
9 You would have to agree with that, wouldn't you?
10 A. At the time in Vitez, we did not -- or I
11 personally did not have that feeling. At official
12 meetings, there was a danger of conflicts breaking out
13 because that threat had been pronounced in the assembly
14 of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
15 Q. I'm not just talking on the municipal level
16 of Vitez, Dr. Mujezinovic. I'm taking a bit more of a
17 broader view than that, a national view. It would be
18 fair to say that throughout your country, within a
19 month of its establishment, a vicious civil war was
20 unleashed by one of the ethnic minorities in that
21 country upon the other two ethnic minorities; that
22 would be fair to say, and you would have to agree with
23 that, wouldn't you?
24 JUDGE MAY: Well, I think we've dealt with
25 that. Mr. Sayers, that question is really a matter of
1 argument and comment.
2 MR. SAYERS: I will move on swiftly, Your
4 JUDGE MAY: If you would. You did tell us
5 yesterday you would be half an hour.
6 MR. SAYERS: I know, and I feel great
7 recrimination for that. I don't want to mislead the
8 Bench in the least.
9 Q. You were asked a question yesterday about
10 refugees, Dr. Mujezinovic. Do you know what the
11 population of the town of Vitez was in 1991, according
12 to the census?
13 A. As far as I can remember, the population of
14 the municipality was some 20.000.
15 Q. Well, actually the population of the town
16 itself was 7.200, wasn't it?
17 A. Thereabouts, yes, the urban part of it is not
18 more than that.
19 Q. And as I understand the response that you
20 made, I believe, to questions from the Bench, from the
21 autumn of 1991 and throughout 1992 and 1993, refugees
22 came flooding into the central Lasva Valley from the
23 east, from the west, and from the north.
24 A. Yes. I said yesterday that the first
25 refugees arrived from East Croatia, and they were
1 Croats, and subsequently Bosniak Muslims began to
2 arrive from East Bosnia in Vitez. More specifically,
3 we had them from Tjentiste. That was from Foca, then
4 from Zenica, from Sipovo, that is, the western part of
5 Bosnia. In Vitez, we had refugees -- I mean Muslims
6 from those places.
7 Yesterday, I also said that from Rogatica,
8 and my wife came from there, about 20 refugees were
9 accommodated in the house where I lived in Vitez, and
10 they spent almost nine months in my house.
11 Q. Well, 25.000 refugees actually left the town
12 of Jajce when it fell to Serbian attacks at the end of
13 October of 1992; isn't that right?
14 A. Yes, I believe it was the end of October,
15 November. I examined those people, both Croats and
16 Muslims, and I did examine them in this reserve
17 location of the health centre. I had heard that there
18 were some 7.000 Croats from Jajce, but I really do not
19 remember how many Muslims there were, because there
20 were other people who were responsible for keeping a
21 record of that.
22 Yesterday, I said that the overwhelming
23 majority of Croats left Vitez. Not very many of them
24 stayed there. They asked to go to Croatia, to go to
25 Tomislavgrad, but by and large to Croatia.
1 Q. As a prominent citizen in the community, Dr.
2 Mujezinovic, you would agree with me, I take it, that
3 this massive influx of refugees put a tremendous strain
4 upon the local resources that you had available, both
5 in terms of housing, food, medical care, and other
6 resources too.
7 A. Excuse me. My family -- I just told you that
8 in my household, there were 20 refugees, so naturally
9 that we were put under it -- the whole municipality and
10 all the households had -- the expenditures rose
11 steeply, of course. The standard of living began to
12 drop, because as I was saying, my family had five
13 members, and all of a sudden there were 20 people more
14 at home in my household. We were all trying.
15 At that time, I, I mean as a doctor, was
16 trying to help all those people, to help them, to put
17 them up somewhere, to not let them sleep in the park,
18 in the open, regardless of their ethnic origin.
19 But it is quite true that there was an
20 enormous -- a tremendous influx of refugees from Jajce,
21 and I believe it was late October or perhaps early
22 November, 1992.
23 Q. And using your own personal experience, I
24 think you would agree and you would tell the Trial
25 Chamber that the strain that that put on available
1 housing in the area was absolutely tremendous.
2 A. Why? I already stated where we accommodated
3 those people; mostly in private homes, those who had
4 their relatives there, and in summer cottages, and
5 there were quite a number of those in the villages of
6 Kruscica, Ahmici, Hrasno. There were a number of such
7 cottages, and mostly people from Zenica -- I mean
8 people living in Zenica had those cottages.
9 Q. All right. Now, that brings us to the
10 October 1992 blockade at Ahmici that you talked about.
11 That was immediately before the fall of Jajce, was it
13 A. Yes. I said that at the time, I was not in
14 Vitez, that I spent my weekends working in the Travnik
15 Hospital. It was only on Monday morning that I learned
16 of a roadblock in Ahmici, that is, the main regional
17 road to Split and Banja Luka. In point of fact, we do
18 not have any other road except for the one that goes to
19 Doboj or, rather, to Croatia. There were --
20 JUDGE MAY: Doctor, let me interrupt you. If
21 you deal with these matters shortly, I hope we can
22 finish more quickly.
23 Mr. Sayers, we have been over this ground.
24 Unless there's something new you want to ask, I suggest
25 we move on.
1 MR. SAYERS: Just a couple of cleanup
2 questions on that.
3 Q. You would agree that in the autumn of 1992,
4 sir, there were more people wearing uniforms than there
5 were not in the population generally; right?
6 A. What year are you talking about?
7 Q. '92, sir.
8 A. Yes, I agree.
9 Q. All right. You were informed that Mr. Dzemal
10 Merdan from the 3rd Corps command in Zenica had
11 actually ordered that roadblock to be installed in
12 Ahmici; is that correct?
13 A. Yes, but that is something that I learned at
14 a later date.
15 Q. And after the hostilities, sir, and I
16 appreciate that you don't know about them because you
17 didn't observe them first-hand, but you and the
18 political leadership in Vitez cooperated by going on
19 television and trying to calm down the tensions that
20 were created as a result of that fighting; isn't that
22 A. Yesterday, I said that with two local priests
23 and Pero Skopljak, that we all appeared on the local
24 television, sometime in the evening of the 23rd, in an
25 attempt to calm down the situation in Vitez and explain
1 what it was all about. Munib Kajmovic was also
2 supposed to go, but he had called me and told me that
3 he could not, and asked me if I could go in his stead,
4 so I did.
5 Q. Now, going to the second document in the
6 bundle, by the time of the October conflict --
7 JUDGE MAY: Well, we must give these a
8 number. The first had better be 17/1.1, and the second
10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sayers, before you
11 continue, I just want to have a clarification on the
12 answer that was given to your question that there were
13 more people wearing uniforms than there were not in the
14 population generally. I would just like to have an
15 explanation of that. Exactly what does that mean?
16 There were more uniformed persons than there were
18 MR. SAYERS: You're absolutely right, Judge
19 Robinson. That was not a question that was
20 characterised by a phenomenal amount of artistry, and
21 I'll see if I can clear it up.
22 Q. Would it be fair to say, Dr. Mujezinovic, in
23 response to Judge Robinson's question, that there were
24 more civilians, more male civilians, people of military
25 age, who were actually wearing uniforms in the latter
1 half of 1992 than were actually wearing civilian
3 A. As far as I can remember, and yesterday I
4 think some evidence was shown, that there were many
5 conscripts in uniforms of the HVO, the Territorial
6 Defence, the HOS also in the first half. There were
7 quite a number of men wearing uniforms. At the time, I
8 would go through by car, and I saw them in the streets.
9 Q. So as you were driving through the streets,
10 just to follow up on this, you would see more people in
11 uniform than out of uniform; is that correct?
12 A. No. Let me tell you. In the town itself, to
13 the best of my knowledge and memory, the Territorial
14 Defence or, rather, the staff of the Territorial
15 Defence at that time was sending units in the direction
16 of Sarajevo and Vlasic, and I also heard at the time
17 that the HVO was also sending its units to Vlasic. So
18 in the town itself, as these units were being sent also
19 to the ground, there were not very many of them. There
20 were uniformed individuals, but those units were being
21 sent out to the field.
22 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Mr. Sayers,
23 I believe that this line of questioning is leading us
24 nowhere. Could you go on to something else, because
25 this is leading nowhere. You know how much time is
1 valuable, and everybody's time, including that of the
2 accused. So we have to go further. We don't see what
3 this all means.
4 MR. SAYERS: Very well, Your Honour. I take
5 that and will try to move on.
6 Q. Turning your attention to Exhibit D17/1.2, do
7 you recognise this as the decree issued on June the
8 20th, 1992, declaring a state of war in the Republic of
10 JUDGE MAY: You know, Mr. Sayers, I wonder
11 about the point of this. You're presenting this
12 witness with a whole lot of documents which he's not
13 even seen, and I've been going through it and I got
14 halfway through, I got to 9 or 10. I don't know how
15 many documents there are in all. Is this the
16 appropriate witness, first of all, to put these
17 documents to?
18 MR. SAYERS: It may be, Your Honour, because
19 he was a prominent political figure in Vitez and the
20 president of the war presidency, which had, according
21 to his testimony, military power or the power to issue
22 orders to the army, and I would have thought that he
23 would be the appropriate witness to authenticate or to
24 identify this kind of document. But --
25 JUDGE MAY: Very well. But let us do it more
1 quickly. Because of the time this witness has been
2 giving evidence, which is already over two days, it had
3 been hoped that we could go fairly quickly.
4 I would also ask you to bear in mind that
5 relying on the estimates we were given yesterday,
6 arrangements would have been made for witnesses to come
7 here, and we need to get through those witnesses this
8 week. So I'm afraid there will be a time limit on the
9 amount available for questioning.
10 Perhaps you can go through fairly quickly
11 with the witness. Ask him if he can remember the
12 documents or not, number them, and move on.
13 MR. SAYERS: I will do that, Your Honour.
14 MR. NICE: Can I interrupt for this purpose
15 only? Of course, if the Defence choose to present me
16 with a bundle of documents, inviting me to admit them,
17 I'll deal with it and they can be dealt with
18 compendiously. It's a matter I was going to raise this
19 afternoon, in any event.
20 JUDGE MAY: You mean if you had a chance to
21 look at these documents, --
22 MR. NICE: I haven't had a chance --
23 JUDGE MAY: -- it may be possible to admit
24 them over the break?
25 MR. NICE: Well, probably, but certainly if
1 we're given generally advance notice, we can admit
2 documents and they can then be incorporated into the
3 core bundle and so on. Not a problem.
4 JUDGE MAY: Yes, and that would be much more
5 helpful, because as it is, we're going to have to go
6 between the two bundles to pick these documents up.
7 MR. NICE: Perhaps we can deal with that this
8 afternoon in our procedural discussion.
9 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
10 Mr. Sayers, what I suggest is this: We'll
11 adjourn now for our usual break. We'll make it half an
12 hour, because everyone has got to move. Will you
13 please discuss these matters with Mr. Nice, see if it's
14 possible for the documents all to be admitted and
15 numbered, and then there may not be any need to put
16 them to the witness unless there are specific matters
17 you want to raise with him? In that way, I hope that
18 we can finish his evidence as quickly as possible.
19 MR. SAYERS: Yes, Your Honour, I'll do that.
20 Thank you.
21 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Mr. Sayers,
22 we have to add that the submission of documents has to
23 have some connection with the testimony itself. This
24 has to be linked with the testimony that was given.
25 There has to be a relationship, because we cannot have
1 the witness coming to testify on a given point, go the
2 full range of all kinds of things. It has to be linked
3 to the examination-in-chief.
4 A. May I, please? Your Honours, may I ask a
6 JUDGE MAY: You can.
7 A. This is the fourth day I'm spending in this
8 courtroom, not the second day.
9 JUDGE MAY: We've got that in mind. That's
10 why we're trying to finish and get you home.
11 Well, if the break could be spent profitably,
12 we'll sit again at quarter to 11.00 (sic) and with a
13 view to having this witness finished within half an
15 A. Thank you very much.
16 JUDGE MAY: We'll meet again in courtroom 2.
17 --- Recess taken at 11.12 a.m.
18 --- On resuming at 11.47 a.m.
19 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Sayers.
20 MR. SAYERS: Your Honour, I have conferred
21 with Mr. Nice over the break, and the documents that we
22 have presented to the Trial Chamber I believe are not
23 objectionable to the Prosecution. They consist of
24 three things. The first two documents are official
25 documents from the official published lists of the
1 Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina; the other category
2 of documents are documents that are within the
3 Prosecution's own core bundle, and the other category
4 of documents are documents that exist and were
5 introduced as exhibits in Blaskic.
6 Your Honours, mindful of your injunction that
7 this gentleman has been testifying for four days, and
8 with your permission, I'm not going to go through those
9 with him. I would like to finish up this
10 cross-examination with about ten minutes of questions
11 on topics which were directly covered by this gentleman
12 in direct examination.
13 JUDGE MAY: Very well.
14 MR. SAYERS:
15 Q. Dr. Mujezinovic, you testified that you
16 assumed the chairman of the war presidency on February
17 the 2nd, 1993; right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. That made you the leader of the Muslim
20 community in Vitez at that time; right?
21 A. (No translation)
22 Q. And that gave you supreme authority in the
23 municipality along with your colleagues on the war
24 presidency, and that included control over the army;
1 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sayers, we had no
2 translation to the question, "That made you the leader
3 of the Muslim community in Vitez."
4 MR. SAYERS:
5 Q. It did make you the leader of the Muslim
6 community in Vitez, did it not, Dr. Mujezinovic?
7 A. I became president of the war presidency, a
8 body that was taking decisions, passing orders,
9 recommendations, conclusions, and we implemented
10 everything we received from the presidency and
11 government of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
12 Q. (Microphone not activated) ... control over
13 the Muslim military forces in your area; right?
14 A. The military forces in Vitez and the police
15 could not undertake any action without our approval.
16 Q. Right. And as chairman of the war
17 presidency, Dr. Mujezinovic, you were fully informed
18 about the numbers of troops, equipment, and
19 dispositions of the TO troops in the Vitez area? You
20 testified about that just last Friday in the Kupreskic
21 case, did you not?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You were provided with the exact deployments
24 and dispositions of each of the units of the army of
25 Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Territorial Defence within
1 your area; right?
2 A. I had the deployment and disposition of the
3 HVO units as well.
4 Q. I understand, sir, but you knew about --
5 there's no question that you knew about the
6 dispositions of the TO and ABiH units in Vitez before
7 April the 16th, 1993, outbreak of hostilities. That's
8 correct, is it not?
9 A. Yes, we had to report all military facilities
10 to UNPROFOR, and the location of all armed forces, and
11 this was reported by members of the army.
12 Q. And the BiH army actually had wartime units
13 in Stari Vitez prior to the outbreak of hostilities in
14 the middle of April; that is correct, is it not?
15 A. Yes, the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina had the
16 defence staff in Stari Vitez, and the deployment of the
17 brigade that we had was not stationed in Stari Vitez,
18 only the Defence headquarters of Vitez, the commander
19 of which was Sefkjia Dzidic.
20 Q. But the army had units in the surrounding
21 villages, such as Kruscica, Preocica, and Poculica;
22 isn't that right?
23 A. That is right. Only those units were mobile,
24 and they went to the front lines.
25 Q. And these were all units of the 325th
1 Mountain Brigade; is that not correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And that brigade actually included men from
4 the villages of Santici, Pirici, and Ahmici as well,
5 did it not?
6 A. Yes, military conscripts, and I already said
7 that all able-bodied adults were either in the army or
8 in the defence staff or in the police or in the civil
9 defence, which meant the entire population had certain
10 assignments, because the danger of war had been
11 declared, and there was a kind of mobilisation.
12 Q. Exactly. And that included men who lived in
13 the villages that I just mentioned: Santici, Pirici,
14 and Ahmici?
15 A. Yes. Yes.
16 Q. Now, as president of the war presidency
17 throughout 1993 and 1994, what personal responsibility
18 or duty did you have to ensure that criminals who had
19 been apprehended, and were within the judicial system
20 being prosecuted, actually had their cases disposed
21 of? Did you have any responsibility to do that once
22 the criminal investigation had begun?
23 A. The war presidency had, as I said, it issued
24 orders, conclusions, and recommendations, and the order
25 was that all criminals, if any, as well as those who
1 did not respect the rules, should be taken into custody
2 by the military police if they were military men or by
3 the civilian police, and that proceedings be instituted
4 against them.
5 Q. But the point I'm making, Dr. Mujezinovic, is
6 that once that process had begun, once these people
7 suspected of criminal activity had actually been
8 apprehended, you and your colleagues on the war
9 presidency relied upon the legal system to carry
10 through to its end without intervening, yourselves;
11 isn't that correct?
12 A. If a soldier was in question, the soldiers
13 were apprehended by the military police of the BH
14 army. There was a military court in Zenica and a
15 prison in Zenica, and they, the military court,
16 conducted the proceedings against people suspected of
17 having violated the rules.
18 Q. That's exactly right, Dr. Mujezinovic.
19 That's the point I'm making, that once these people had
20 been made subjects of the criminal justice system, such
21 as it existed, even in the military context, you left
22 the administration of that process, the wheels of
23 justice, so to speak, to move in their own way, without
24 becoming involved yourself; isn't that right?
25 A. We did not interfere in the work of the
1 courts or their decisions. They had their own rules of
2 procedure, and the court was independent of us. We
3 couldn't have an influence over the decisions of the
5 Q. That is right, sir, and if you had tried to
6 interfere or in any way monitor the progress of the
7 criminal investigations, you would have been told that
8 that's a matter for the criminal justice system and not
9 a matter within your competence; isn't that true?
10 A. Yes, exactly. That was within the competence
11 of the military or the civilian court. It was not
12 within our sphere of competence. Our responsibility
13 was to have all suspects apprehended and proceedings
14 started against them. At the war presidency we had a
15 very clear stand in that regard, because we really did
16 wish to have peace restored, and we wanted to avoid
17 conflict. We requested from the army commanders and
18 the chiefs of the civilian police to strictly respect
19 the rules of duty or, rather, the recommendations of
20 the presidency and government of the Republic of
22 JUDGE MAY: Well, Doctor, I think we've
23 covered the point. Thank you.
24 MR. SAYERS:
25 Q. Now, you've testified about the most serious
1 incident that you're aware of involving ABiH troops,
2 an incident at which six HVO soldiers were beaten up
3 shortly before the outbreak of the April 1993
4 hostilities; is that correct?
5 A. Yes, at the end of November, two soldiers of
6 the BH army were killed on the road from Vitez to the
7 village of Kruscica. One was called Huso Haric, and
8 the other was, I think, Esad Mujo. We insisted, and
9 orders were issued by the local commander, that the
10 first HVO unit that arrives --
11 Q. Doctor, I don't mean to be impolite, but I
12 just asked you if that was your testimony and not to
13 repeat the testimony.
14 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, you are not being
15 impolite. It is the duty of counsel to control the
16 witnesses. If there is some point on which you don't
17 need the evidence, then it's your duty to interrupt.
18 MR. SAYERS: Thank you, Your Honour.
19 Q. Dr. Mujezinovic, the village of Dusina is
20 just a few kilometres down the road from Vitez, is it
22 A. I think it is about 18 or 20 kilometres
23 away. I don't know exactly.
24 Q. Did you know that 13 Croat civilians had been
25 massacred in the village of Dusina on January the 25th
1 and 26th, 1993, sir?
2 A. I had heard about it, but I'm really not
3 familiar with the details about Dusina.
4 Q. Did you know that three HVO officers and
5 their driver had been kidnapped, supposedly by the 7th
6 Muslim Brigade forces, on April the 14th, 1993, sir?
7 A. No. As far that case is concerned, there
8 were such cases, but I'm not familiar with the
9 details. I know what happened in Vitez. As for the
10 broader region, I can just tell you what I had heard,
11 that there were incidents in Travnik, Zenica -- you
12 mentioned the village of Dusina, I mentioned the
13 village of Kruscica -- Busovaca. There were incidents
14 on both sides.
15 Q. Well, turning to the last one of those
16 incidents that I would like to draw the Trial Chamber's
17 attention to, you were aware that commander Zivko Totic
18 had been kidnapped by the 7th Muslim Brigade in Zenica
19 on April the 15th, 1993, were you not?
20 A. No. No, I was not.
21 Q. Did you not see televised, sir, the pictures
22 of commander Zivko Totic's bodyguard, consisting of
23 three people, shot by approximately 100 bullets, shot
24 to death in Zenica on the 15th of April, 1993?
25 A. I heard later that some HVO soldiers had been
1 killed in Zenica, but I really do not recollect that.
2 I didn't see it, and nobody told me that Zivko Totic
3 had been killed, and I don't know the man in person. I
4 never met him. I never saw him.
5 Q. All right, sir. Now, in connection with the
6 testimony that you gave regarding being driven back and
7 forth between the Vitez health centre and your house
8 after April the 19th, isn't it true that Dr. Bruno
9 Buzuk, the health minister for the HVO, actually told
10 you that that was occurring because of the danger of
11 Muslim snipers shooting people in Vitez after April the
13 A. No, I was told by the driver who drove me --
14 I said that his name was Dragan Petrovic -- that he had
15 received orders to drive me, but he didn't tell me
16 anything about what you said.
17 Q. Did you know that in 1993, five people were
18 killed by sniper fire in Vitez and another 26 were
19 wounded? Five Croats were killed and 26 Croats were
21 A. I said that from the 19th until I was
22 exchanged, I had no contact, and all I knew was what I
23 had heard from stories, but I didn't have any official
24 data. I had no contact with the official
25 representatives of the BH army. I really didn't know
1 how many people were killed or wounded on either side.
2 Q. Did you ever treat either Marko Prskalo or
3 Zoran Pilicic for gunshot wounds inflicted by snipers
4 in the middle of April, 1993?
5 A. Let me tell you, I said that there were many
6 people wounded, especially after the 19th. I don't
7 remember by name each of the wounded people who came
8 for treatment. We had a registry where we entered the
9 names and the diagnoses, the treatment we gave to each
10 wounded person, whether he stayed on there or was sent
11 to hospital, but I do not remember the names of all the
12 individuals. I remember Ante Omazic, who was wounded
13 in the stomach. I knew him well. We went to
14 elementary school together. Whether it was from a
15 sniper, I don't know. I remember him, though.
16 Q. You don't remember treating either of the two
17 gentlemen that I mentioned to you: Mr. Prskalo or
18 Mr. Pililic?
19 A. It's possible that I may have treated them. I
20 don't know. I told you I do not remember the names.
21 Q. The last series of questions on this
22 particular subject, the people that you treated from
23 April the 19th to May the 19th, 1993, you treated over
24 100 HVO soldiers who had been wounded and suffering
25 from various types of injuries ranging from grave to
1 light, and most inflicted by gunshot; is that not
3 A. I don't know the exact number, but they were
4 wounds from firearms.
5 Q. You would agree with me that you estimated
6 that the number of people you treated on April the 19th
7 alone was over 100 HVO troops suffering from various
8 kinds of gunshot and explosion-related wounds; isn't
9 that right, sir?
10 A. The injuries were mostly from firearms,
11 perhaps shrapnel. But in any event, from firearms.
12 Q. The point I'm making is there were more than
13 100 on that day alone?
14 JUDGE MAY: Well, the witness has said he
15 doesn't know the exact number.
16 MR. SAYERS: All right.
17 Q. Do you remember being asked that precise
18 question in the Blaskic case on August the 21st, 1997,
20 For my friend across the hall, it's at page
21 1783. The question was, "Can you estimate, were there
22 more than 100?" Answer, "I think there were."
23 Did you say that two years ago?
24 A. Possibly. I said that there were a large
25 number of them, that I worked very hard, I worked all
1 day, that I asked Dr. Buzuk to bring physicians who
2 were capable, like Dr. Drago Moris, who was a surgeon,
3 Dr. Patkovic, because there were indeed many. I repeat
4 again, there may have been more than 100.
5 Q. Right. But you didn't treat any TO troops or
6 troops from the ABiH. These were all, every single one
7 of them, HVO troops; right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. One final question, sir. Did I understand
10 you to say, in your direct examination, that you had
11 four hand grenades in your house on the evening of
12 April the 15th, 1993; "Yes" or "No"?
13 A. I wasn't aware of them. I said that my wife
14 told me later on.
15 Q. You had four hand grenades in your house on
16 the evening before the fighting broke out; is that
18 A. It is correct, but I was not aware of them.
19 My neighbour from upstairs brought them and left them
20 on the balcony. That's what my wife told me. Then my
21 wife handed them in to Stipo Krizanac. I really didn't
22 know about them, nor did I ever have any weapons.
23 MR. SAYERS: Thank you. No further
25 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, just before you
1 finish, the witness has said that Mr. Kordic was
2 introduced to him as the first Croat of Central Bosnia,
3 a colonel and the deputy president of the HZ-HB. Is it
4 accepted that Mr. Kordic was introduced in those
6 MR. SAYERS: I really don't know, Your
7 Honour, because I don't know what occasion the doctor
8 was talking about. But I would be happy to cover that,
9 if the Court wants.
10 JUDGE MAY: Doctor, is that right, that the
11 accused Mr. Kordic was introduced in those terms?
12 A. I said that he was introduced on the local
13 public media, on television and the radio.
14 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Thank you. That's
15 the answer. Now then, is that in dispute, that he was
16 introduced in that way?
17 MR. SAYERS: Well, I really don't know the
18 answer to that question, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE MAY: Why don't you ask Mr. Kordic then
20 if it's disputed?
21 MR. SAYERS: Well, I think that Mr. Kordic
22 was introduced as a member of the HVO and he was
23 introduced as a colonel, although he didn't wear any
24 rank insignia, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Thank you. Any
1 re-examination, please?
2 MR. NICE: Very little re-examination. But I
3 have just a slight confusion as to the very last
4 question that Mr. Sayers asked, the question about the
5 hand grenades and, indeed, the questions of impeachment
6 generally, because it's almost as if they are
7 impregnated with another proposition, and the
8 proposition isn't being advanced to the witness. I
9 don't know what, if any, significance there is in them,
10 and I can't deal with it.
11 So far as re-examination is concerned, before
12 I come to that, my attitude on Defence exhibits, as
13 explained to Mr. Sayers, is this, so that the Trial
14 Chamber understand: Obviously, I can't accept,
15 certainly not at short notice, the prevalence of
16 exhibits introduced in the defence of other cases.
17 Equally, I can accept the prevalence of exhibits that
18 come from our side. Of course I can. I simply ask if
19 documents are put in, they are flagged up as to whether
20 they are Defence exhibits in another case or where they
21 come from. That's all.
22 Re-examined by Mr. Nice:
23 Q. Dr. Mujezinovic, going back to questions you
24 were asked on behalf of the defendant Cerkez, and deal
25 with them as briefly as you can, before the war, his
1 responsibilities in the factory, what were they, what
2 did they include?
3 A. As far as I know, Mr. Cerkez worked in the
4 department for self-protection and information in the
5 work organisation SPS in Vitez. I think that he was in
6 charge of materiel and technical resources in that work
8 Q. Were there any, to your knowledge, weapons in
9 that organisation?
10 A. Mr. Cerkez was, in fact, in charge of the
11 military supplies. In the work organisation, there was
12 an entire service providing security for the plants,
13 and these mainly contained military materiel; rifles,
14 equipment, medical supplies for the army.
15 Q. That's fine. You were asked about the HVO in
16 Vitez having both military and civil authority. Was
17 there any split in the chains of command or authority
18 as between military and civil functions, to your
19 knowledge, or not?
20 A. I don't know what the chain of command and
21 control was in the HVO. I learned that there was the
22 staff of the HVO and the government of the HVO of
23 Vitez, and our interpretation was that there was the
24 civil part, the political part, that that was the
25 government, and that the staff was the military part.
1 I'm not sure of this, whether that is so.
2 Q. Thank you. Where did Mr. Cerkez fit in, as
3 you understood it?
4 A. Mr. Cerkez came as the commander of the HVO
5 staff in Vitez. He would occasionally attend meetings
6 of the crisis staff, as necessary. And Marijan
7 Skopljak also came, Hakija Cengic, and later Sefkija
8 Djidic, when there were any disagreements between the
9 HVO and the TO, which later became the BH army, at the
10 local level.
11 Q. Who had authority to speak for the HVO
12 military side at those meetings?
13 A. Mostly, it was Mario Cerkez who spoke, and
14 Marijan Skopljak. For a while, he was the Defence
15 minister, Stipo Krizanac, but later on, Marijan
17 Q. And of Cerkez and Skopljak, who was senior?
18 A. I really wouldn't know. I'm not conversant
19 with that hierarchy.
20 Q. Thank you. You were asked about the way
21 people were introduced, for example, on television.
22 The question related to Kraljevic, but you've also
23 spoken of Kordic. Was Mr. Cerkez ever the subject of
24 television information, and if so, how was he
1 A. No, I never listened to that. He may have
2 been, probably, but I never heard Mario Cerkez on
4 MR. NICE: The next topic is something that I
5 may be able to deal with very briefly. Mr. Sayers
6 suggests that the Tribunal has a collection of this
7 witness's witness statements. I wasn't sure if that
8 was the case or not. If you have them, I can deal with
9 it very briefly.
10 JUDGE MAY: The answer is that the legal
11 officer has a collection. We don't, individually, have
12 a collection.
13 MR. NICE: Very well. I deal with this topic
14 very briefly, and if my friends opposite want me to
15 deal with it in more detail, they must say so.
16 Q. Of your four statements, the first in 1995,
17 do you recall that that was -- I'm going to lead on
18 this -- that that was something that has never been
20 A. Yes, because I wasn't happy about the
22 Q. Thank you. The remaining three statements,
23 each of which has been signed, were they taken in
24 English or in your own language?
25 A. Questions were asked of me in English, and I
1 had an interpreter. I really was not satisfied with
2 the manner, and on one occasion I asked them to find
3 another interpreter here in the Tribunal from
4 Mr. McNowell from the Prosecutor's office.
5 Q. When did you first have a chance to see the
6 translations from English into your own language of
7 these statements, or any of them, if you can remember?
8 A. It was usually a day or two after I had given
9 a statement.
10 Q. In relation to one topic that you were asked
11 about by Mr. Kovacic, you were asked about the
12 conversation in the car with Kraljevic, in which you
13 told the Court that he mentioned Cerkez, along with
14 Skopljak and Santic, and you were asked about the fact
15 that you had not mentioned that, I think, in a later
16 statement or testimony.
17 Is it the case, and again I'm going to lead
18 this, that on page 12 of your first signed statement,
19 the 13th and 16th of July of 1995, that you mentioned
20 that Cerkez, along with Valenta, Skopljak, and Santic,
21 were spoken of by Kraljevic?
22 A. I mentioned -- first of all, I said that the
23 most persistent in all this were Anto Valenta and Pero
25 Q. Dr. Mujezinovic, I'm going to cut you again
1 short. The question is susceptible to a "Yes"/"No"
2 answer. Is it right that in that statement, the first
3 signed statement, you mentioned Cerkez, along with the
4 other three? Just "Yes" or "No."
5 A. I believe I did, yes.
6 Q. You were shown yesterday -- no. Staying with
7 that topic, you have been asked a number of questions
8 about what you said of Kraljevic. An extract was
9 provided of part of your testimony in Blaskic.
10 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm not going to fill
11 in the blanks, although it may be that it's sometimes a
12 slightly unfortunate course to extract passages.
13 Q. Is it the case that in addition to whatever
14 you saw of Kraljevic, you also had information about
15 use of drugs, maybe in the form of gossip but from
16 others, not necessarily in relation to him but in
17 relation to troops generally?
18 A. Well, yes, there was talk about that in
19 Vitez, that HOS formations were distributing drugs.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 A. But this is purely gossip. I did not see
22 it. I do not know if that was true.
23 Q. You gave an account to the Tribunal, in
24 answer to questions from me, of your judgement of the
25 lucidity, the clarity, of what Kraljevic was saying
1 when he spoke of Valenta, Skopljak, Santic, and
2 Cerkez. You gave that evidence last week, I think.
3 In light of what you've been asked by the
4 Defence, do you want to change that, or is your
5 evidence unchanged on that topic?
6 A. During our conversation in the car, he spoke
8 Q. Thank you. Is there anything you want to
9 change from what you first told the Chamber last week?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Well, then tell us what it is.
12 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour.
13 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Kovacic.
14 MR. KOVACIC: I would kindly ask you to try
15 to correct. It is either an error or it was
16 misleading. I think it's better to do it now than on
17 the end of the testimony.
18 The Prosecutor was asking about the first
19 statement of the witness and then was referring to the
20 date 16 May, 1995. That is not correct. We had been
21 talking, when I asked the witness on that, the first
22 statement is on the 1st March '95, and in that one, he
23 never mentioned Cerkez. It would be better to clear it
25 MR. NICE: I think on every occasion, I said
1 it was the first signed statement, and I've
2 distinguished between the unsigned statement and the
3 signed one.
4 JUDGE MAY: Very well.
5 MR. NICE:
6 Q. What, if any, changes do you want to make in
7 the account that you gave to the Chamber last week as
8 to the clarity of speech of Kraljevic in the car?
9 A. He spoke normally while we talked, and what
10 do I know? He wasn't showing any signs of aggression.
11 It was just a chat, a conversation between two
12 persons. He was asking me about my opinion, and I
13 advised him to leave Vitez. I mean --
14 Q. Thank you. You've been asked about the HOS
15 and the Vitezovi, into which it changed. Just remind
16 us, please, what sort of period you're dealing with,
17 the change from HOS to Vitezovi.
18 A. I think it was the latter half of '92.
19 Q. Was Darko Kraljevic in charge of the Vitezovi
20 from then and until the time of your escape, or your
21 exchange? I beg your pardon.
22 A. I stated that on the local television, he was
23 introduced as colonel and as the commander of the
24 special unit, Vitezovi, HVO Vitezovi, special HVO
25 formation called Vitezovi, with the rank of colonel.
1 Q. Was anything said to you or did anybody else
2 say to you about the lines of command of the Vitezovi
3 and how it connected or otherwise with other parts of
4 the HVO in Vitez or elsewhere?
5 A. No, no.
6 Q. And finally on the subject of Kraljevic, who
7 is dead, is he commemorated in Vitez, to your
9 A. I really don't know. I've passed through by
10 car. I know there is a monument in Vitez to him.
11 There was flowers and wreaths there. But as I don't
12 live and don't work in Vitez and I don't really go to
13 Vitez at all, I just don't know. I don't have any
14 latest information about that.
15 Q. Thank you. There was a video shown yesterday
16 with an untranslated transcript. It showed you in
17 hospital in April. It's hard for you to remember this,
18 but was there anything on that soundtrack that needed
19 translating or that you want to draw to our attention?
20 I have to ask it this way because we haven't had any
21 other opportunity of dealing with it.
22 A. Let me tell you, I was brought there to work,
23 escorted by military police, and I truly worked there
24 and I did all that was within my power.
25 Q. The question was, was there anything said on
1 the soundtrack that you think may assist us?
2 A. In this -- on this soundtrack, I stated that
3 it had been said that I had been killed, and I said,
4 "Well, don't you see that I'm working here?" I
5 introduced other doctors who had been brought to work
6 here, and they were both Muslims and Croats, and there
7 was a lady doctor, Serb, and also a male Serb doctor.
8 I was simply trying to allay the tension, to show that
9 the picture was not as black as it was usually reported
10 to be.
11 Q. Thank you. You spoke of a television
12 interview where you were invited to say things but you
13 declined, as I've understood it. What were you being
14 invited at one stage to say that you were not prepared
15 to say?
16 A. I was asked to invite Muslims from Stari
17 Vitez to lay down their weapons, and that was what I
18 declined to say.
19 Q. Thank you. This morning, you were shown one
20 document only that I want you to look at, and again
21 very briefly. It's D20/2, and it's my mistake probably
22 for not understanding something.
23 On the top -- for public display, this would
24 actually require the original to be shown on the ELMO,
25 if at all, but on the top we see two figures number 1.
1 We've got a translation of the top one of those.
2 First of all, had you seen this document, or
3 any part of it, before you were shown it this morning?
4 A. No.
5 Q. The writing, apart from the signature at the
6 foot, do you recognise it at all?
7 A. No. This is the first time I see this
8 document. I mean I saw it today.
9 Q. Are you able to help -- probably the answer
10 is self-evident, but I must ask it. Are you able to
11 help, one way or another, with why the top entry on the
12 page has been written above by a further top entry
13 given number 1? Can you offer any explanation for
15 A. I don't know. Mensus Aganovic, Rasim's son,
16 I do not know that man at all. It says here that he
17 went home, and somebody's signature, but I simply
18 cannot identify it.
19 Q. Thank you very much. You were asked
20 questions about your motivation for leaving Vitez.
21 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I notice that no
22 alternative explanation was ventured.
23 Q. You were asked about having the courage to
24 leave Vitez or how you had the courage to leave Vitez.
25 Did you want to leave your family at that time?
1 JUDGE MAY: I think really the time may be
2 coming to bring this to a conclusion.
3 MR. NICE: Very well. I've got one other
4 question or two other questions of substance to deal
5 with, but I've been very brief, as Your Honour will
7 JUDGE MAY: Doctor, are you all right? Would
8 you like a break? Are there --
9 MR. NICE: They are questions of importance.
10 JUDGE MAY: Could you, Doctor, deal with one
11 question, and then we'll release you, please?
12 MR. NICE: There are two or three questions,
13 and they relate to the role of --
14 A. Yes.
15 MR. NICE: -- Dr. Mujezinovic in relation to
16 the army and his knowledge.
17 Q. First, you've been asked about troops from
18 Santici, Ahmici, and Pirici fighting on the front
19 lines, but just help us with this. In the middle of
20 April of 1993, were there any BiH units stationed at or
21 in any of those villages?
22 A. No.
23 Q. You've been asked about your knowledge of the
24 deployment of forces. Were those villages defended in
25 any way at that time?
1 A. On the 16th of April, no.
2 Q. And in your role, you had knowledge of the
3 deployment of troops and of the movement of soldiers.
4 Did you have any part of direction or control over the
5 soldiers yourself, any direct control over the movement
6 of BiH soldiers?
7 A. I had to know where the army was, how many
8 soldiers there were, how many of them were on the
9 ground. I had to be aware of the orders they received
10 from the superior command. The war presidency had to
11 know this, this kind of thing, that is, have all the
12 information related to armed forces.
13 Q. Did you have any, yourself, ability directly
14 to control the soldiers?
15 A. Through commanders who were responsible for
16 individual units, and it was through them that we
17 exercised our influence, that is, those commanders,
18 upon receiving orders from us, first had to obey their
19 superiors or, rather, seek approval for what we were
20 asking them to do. In other words, we did have some
21 influence as regards the appointment and requests of
22 commanders of individual formations.
23 Q. Thank you very much.
24 MR. NICE: That concludes all I want to ask
25 of this witness, with apologies for having dealt with
1 matters so briskly, maybe, that I lacked some
2 sensitivity at the end.
3 JUDGE MAY: Dr. Mujezinovic, thank you for
4 coming to the Tribunal for giving evidence, and thank
5 you for giving evidence. You are now released.
6 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Your Honours.
7 (The witness withdrew)
8 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Naumovski?
9 MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) Your Honours,
10 if I may, I should like to say two sentences only.
11 JUDGE MAY: Provided they are relevant, yes.
12 MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) I believe
13 they are. First, I was really surprised when the
14 Prosecutor commented on some questions asked by the
15 Defence. I find that unnecessary, because I believe
16 that the Court will evaluate what we did. But that was
17 only by the way.
18 The important thing which I wish to clarify
19 here is the following: What my colleague Steve Sayers
20 said, he agreed with the Prosecution about the document
21 that we tendered; the Prosecutor did not respond to
22 that, which means that he agreed to that. However, if
23 I understand him properly, now, in the end, the
24 Prosecutor expressed a certain degree of reservation as
25 regards those documents.
1 Now the question arises: Were these
2 documents admitted on the basis of the consent of the
3 two parties or not? That is the only point that I wish
4 clarified. Thank you.
5 JUDGE MAY: I suggest that be a matter for
6 consultation between the parties. If the Prosecution
7 have got submissions about the documents, then they
8 could make them in due course. I say that because
9 apparently there was no notice given that these
10 documents were about to be adduced. And if that is
11 going to happen, it places on the party, the other
12 party, a very real difficulty. And in those
13 circumstances, I would allow the Prosecution time to
14 make submissions on the documents.
15 MR. NICE: I'm happy to do that. I'm equally
16 happy to make my position plain, as I made it plain to
17 Mr. Sayers at the break. In relation to all the
18 documents that have been put in by the Defence, I have
19 raised, I think, no objection to any document.
20 Objections take time, and it is far better that if they
21 want you to see a document, you should see it, and we
22 can work out its value later. I simply made the point,
23 but of course, if a document comes from the Defence in
24 another trial, I'm in no position to concede its
25 genuineness, either on short notice or necessarily at
1 any stage. We simply need to know, for later
2 appraisal, where documents come from -- and I asked
3 Mr. Sayers, and as I understood it, he was happy about
4 this -- that Defence exhibits should simply be flagged
5 as Defence exhibits.
6 Before the next witness comes, may we go into
7 closed session?
8 JUDGE MAY: Before we do, there is something
9 I want to say. We would have all seen the distress of
10 that last witness. You, Mr. Nice, apologised. In my
11 judgement, of course, you were right to do so. There
12 was no need to do so. It was not the briskness of the
13 questioning which I suspect caused the distress; it was
14 the length that the witness had been giving evidence.
15 The Bench is most concerned about this, that
16 a witness was brought here last week; he gives evidence
17 -- this is the third or fourth time, it doesn't matter
18 -- in the Tribunal, and in this case, he's kept here
19 for two and a half days.
20 We must speed up the way in which the
21 evidence is given, and -- well, it may be premature,
22 but for the next witness, we are going to suggest
23 targets in order that we get through this witness and
24 the next one by the end of the week.
25 MR. NICE: Excellent. I'm grateful to Your
1 Honour for mentioning that. May I -- and I don't want
2 to rub salt into what may be a small wound at the
3 moment on the opposite side, but of course the topic
4 that caused distress was the topic about which
5 questions had been asked but not focused, and I simply
6 needed to know where I stood, but there it is.
7 I think Mr. Kovacic wants to raise something,
8 but if we may go into closed session for the next
9 witness -- not for the next witness; before --
10 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
11 MR. NICE: -- he comes to give evidence.
12 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Your Honours, I
13 wanted to say something else that we unwittingly opened
14 here. I think we are faced now with a problem that we
15 may have to face again, so I'm trying to be
17 During his examination of Mr. Mujezinovic,
18 Mr. Nice disqualified the first statement that the
19 witness gave, saying that it was not signed. Now, if
20 we begin to use statements that were adduced as part of
21 supporting material because allegedly they had not been
22 signed, then the question arises as to the
23 justification of the confirmation of the indictments,
24 because these statements are found in the supporting
25 material, and the Tribunal confirmed the indictments on
1 the basis of that material, and now, when this is taken
2 out as an exhibit and shown to the witness, then we say
3 "Well, it's no go, because it's not been signed."
4 I'm afraid it might have some very
5 undesirable consequences, so that I'm suggesting that
6 we resolve this matter in principle. Evidently these
7 statements that were given by witnesses to
8 investigators are not evidence, and I don't really
9 think that it really matters very much whether it was
10 signed or not. It was a statement made by a witness,
11 and we simply are trying to clarify the validity of
12 that statement, juxtaposing it to what the statement
13 (sic) testified here, giving evidence.
14 If that is the approach, that may be all
15 right, but if we are changing this approach, then we
16 really have a problem, because evidently the material
17 adduced was not legally valid, and this is not the only
18 such case; this is only one of the examples.
19 Thank you.
20 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, the only
21 significance of the questioning about whether the
22 statement was signed was this, that questions were put
23 to the witness about something he said in the
24 statement, and therefore his credit was being in that
25 way impeached or attacked. If that is done, and the
1 witness said that he complained about the translation,
2 it is relevant as to whether the statement was signed
3 or not.
4 Apart from that, there is no significance in
5 the questioning. So if there is a question about a
6 statement, and the witness gives answers about it, it
7 is relevant to know -- or it may be relevant -- to know
8 whether the statement has been signed or not. It's not
9 evidence; it's merely a question of whether his credit
10 could be impeached because of what's in the statement.
11 MR. NICE: And to settle Mr. Kovacic's
12 concern -- I'm so sorry.
13 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Mr. President,
14 I absolutely agree. That is what I had in mind, and I
15 wouldn't like us to debate this example, but it is a
16 fact that we do have unsigned statements, and bona
17 fide, at the cross, I asked the witness whether he had
18 said what he said. I didn't enter into a debate as to
19 whether there was a signature or not. And today the
20 Prosecutor explained by the lack of signature the fact
21 that we were engaging in this impeachment procedure.
22 So we no longer have equal arms, because the
23 explanation is precisely what you have given. We are
24 treating it in the way we are. We can't just say,
25 "This is not signed, so it's not in debate any more,"
1 because the indictment is based on it. So in that
2 case, let us eliminate all the statements that have no
4 (Trial Chamber deliberates)
5 JUDGE MAY: On this topic, we want to make it
6 plain that the question whether a statement is signed
7 or not is something that we will be considering when we
8 look at the evidence and decide what weight to put upon
9 the particular point. That, in my judgement, is the
10 only significance of it at the moment.
11 MR. NICE: Thank you.
12 JUDGE MAY: Yes, now, closed session -- yes,
13 Mr. Stein. What do you want?
14 MR. STEIN: I'll be succinct. The next
15 witness who is proffered, whose statements you may have
16 read -- and this foreshadows this afternoon -- is going
17 to testify far and wide in range about towns not named
18 in the indictments, about issues not in the indictment,
19 and to the extent that even we have from the Prosecutor
20 this morning a summary of his testimony, or a road map
21 through his testimony, of some 17 pages, most of it
22 again tracks what we've seen in the discovery, and the
23 lion's share of it simply will not advance the cause.
24 To this regard, I suggest that the Tribunal
25 limit the testimony to the length -- I suggest the
1 Tribunal limit the testimony to what this witness has
2 to offer about these two defendants.
3 JUDGE MAY: Well, he is entitled to deal --
4 are you saying he is not entitled to deal with any
5 area? Kresevo, for instance?
6 MR. SAYERS: Kresevo is not named in the
7 indictment, it's not a town at issue, nor are the other
8 towns that are mentioned in his summaries. They are
9 not specific named towns set out in the indictment.
10 MR. NICE: Maybe go into closed session
11 first, because the whole question of publicity of this
12 witness has to be dealt with first. As that is being
13 organised, may I, before I overlook the point, hark
14 back for one sentence to console Mr. Kovacic over his
15 concern over the unsigned statement. The unsigned
16 statement was not submitted at either the time of the
17 confirmation of the original or the amended indictment,
18 and that's shown up on the witness confidential list.
19 (Closed session)
13 redacted pages 2448 2523 private session
16 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
17 4.34 p.m., to be reconvened on
18 Thursday, the 13th day of May, 1999,
19 at 9.45 a.m.