Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 3373

          1                 Wednesday, 9th June, 1999

          2                 (Open session)

          3                 (The accused entered court)

          4                 (The witness entered court)

          5                 --- Upon commencing at 9.50 a.m.

          6            THE REGISTRAR:  Good morning, Your Honours.

          7  This is case number IT-95-14/2-T, the Prosecutor versus

          8  Dario Kordic and Mario Cerkez.

          9            JUDGE MAY:  Yes, Mr. Naumovski.

         10            MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) Thank you,

         11  Your Honours.

         12                 WITNESS:  EKREM MAHMUTOVIC (Resumed)

         13            [The witness answers through interpreter]

         14                 Cross-examined by Mr. Naumovski:

         15       Q.   Good morning, sir.  We can go on.  I just

         16  have several more questions for you.  Yesterday at one

         17  point you said that Mr. Kordic used to come to Vares

         18  and meet with Mr. Anto Pejcinovic.  Did you ever see

         19  Mr. Kordic come to Vares, I mean personally?

         20       A.   No.

         21       Q.   What you said about his coming there you know

         22  from other people's telling you?

         23       A.   Yes.

         24       Q.   Do you perhaps know, do you know when there

         25  is a holiday of Saint Mihovil, who is the saint

Page 3374

          1  protector of Vares?

          2       A.   I do not know.

          3       Q.   It is on the 29th and 30th of September.  Do

          4  you perhaps recall that holiday in 1992?  Do you

          5  remember it by anything?

          6       A.   I do not have particular recollections of

          7  that, but I know that it is celebrated every year.

          8       Q.   So let me just conclude:  You have never seen

          9  Mr. Kordic, and you do not have any direct knowledge

         10  about him meeting anyone?

         11       A.   That is correct.

         12       Q.   Thank you.  Yesterday you had said that you

         13  were a commander of TO until 1 July, 1992.  Could you

         14  tell me who replaced you in this position?

         15       A.   I was replaced by Mr. Avda Zubaca (phoen).

         16       Q.   And Mr. Zubaca was in this position

         17  until ... ?

         18       A.   Until the 122nd Light Brigade was established

         19  in Vares, which was about 11 November, 1993.

         20       Q.   That is after the take-over of Vares?

         21       A.   After the army forces entered Vares.

         22       Q.   Just a few short questions on Stupni Do.  Do

         23  you agree with me that in August 1993, trenches were

         24  dug around Stupni Do and Dragovici-Kopyari, the two

         25  villages?  This was in September of '93?

Page 3375

          1       A.   Yes, under orders of the command of the

          2  municipal staff of the Territorial Defence, the

          3  defence, the encircling defence was supposed to be

          4  secured, and Dragovici-Kopyari is an area which is part

          5  of Dragovici and Mijakovici, and the units from those

          6  two villages were supposed to be fortified there.

          7       Q.   Thank you.  Yesterday you said that the war

          8  presidency, given the numbers which you had, issued a

          9  coded order to evacuate Stupni Do?

         10       A.   Yes.

         11       Q.   But the villagers and the military unit which

         12  was there failed to obey this order?

         13       A.   The military unit was not supposed to leave

         14  the village.

         15       Q.   So only the civilians?

         16       A.   Yes.

         17       Q.   And the military unit was supposed to stay

         18  there and carry out its military tasks?

         19       A.   Yes.

         20       Q.   Yesterday you said that there was a total of

         21  38 people killed in Stupni Do?

         22       A.   Yes.

         23       Q.   Could you please tell us how many military

         24  conscripts were among those killed?

         25       A.   I don't know if I need -- by name?

Page 3376

          1       Q.   No, no; just a number.

          2       A.   About five or six.

          3       Q.   You do not have a specific number?

          4       A.   No, I do not, but if I reviewed -- if

          5  necessary, I could review my documents.

          6       Q.   Speaking of the weapons which the military

          7  recruits in Stupni Do had, you mentioned, apart from

          8  the small-arms weapons, a rocket launcher; and as far

          9  as I understood, they also had communications

         10  equipment?

         11       A.   You understood correctly.

         12       Q.   Thank you.  Just a couple of questions on

         13  Vares.  You say that the citizens started leaving Vares

         14  on their own; is that correct?

         15       A.   I don't understand what citizens you are

         16  referring to.

         17       Q.   The citizens of the town of Vares.

         18       A.   In which period?

         19       Q.   No, no, no, I'm talking about early November

         20  1993.

         21       A.   Yes.  Croat citizens of Vares left Vares

         22  before the army entered it.

         23       Q.   But would you agree with me that at that time

         24  -- that is, before the citizens started leaving the

         25  town of Vares -- there were already combat operations

Page 3377

          1  in the area of the municipality of Vares?

          2       A.   Yes, there was fighting in the Vares

          3  municipality territory.

          4       Q.   The attack on the municipality of Vares, that

          5  is the one held by the Croats, by the HVO, started on

          6  18 October, 1993, and when the feature of Lijesnica was

          7  taken -- and you should know it, because it was very

          8  important in military terms.

          9       A.   Yes.

         10       Q.   And then on the 19th of October, the village

         11  of Kopule (phoen) was taken, where the Croats were?

         12       A.   Yes.

         13       Q.   This was a village -- six civilians were

         14  killed in this village, and the village was burnt and

         15  looted; do you agree with me?

         16       A.   I do not.  No civilian was killed, and the

         17  village was not burnt down.

         18       Q.   In other words, there were no civilian

         19  casualties, and the village was intact?

         20       A.   Yes, except I have learned later that one

         21  structure, a barn, was set on fire.

         22       Q.   We're talking about combat operations on that

         23  day?

         24       A.   Yes.

         25       Q.   And were any houses burned down later?

Page 3378

          1       A.   Yes, later on, the village was burned down.

          2       Q.   Yesterday we talked about the refugees.  The

          3  largest number of refugees arrived after 15 June '93,

          4  which were the Croats from Kakanj area, from an area

          5  called Kraljeva Sutjeska; about 15.000 of them came to

          6  Vares from there?

          7       A.   When was this?

          8       Q.   In 1993.

          9       A.   Yes.  I cannot know the exact date, but it's

         10  around there.

         11       Q.   It was sometime in July of '93.  Now, when we

         12  talk about Vares in 1993, there was an all-out attack

         13  against Vares in October, when the 2nd Tuzla,

         14  3rd Zenica, and 4th Visoko Corps, plus some special

         15  units, attacked this area controlled by the Croats.

         16            JUDGE MAY:  This is an attack by the ABiH, is

         17  it, you're putting, Mr. Naumovski?

         18            MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) Yes.  Perhaps

         19  I was not specific enough.

         20       A.   Yes, these units moved in on Vares.

         21       Q.   There were some special units there.  There

         22  was Frka's unit, Ferid Trkulja was his commander, his

         23  nickname was Frka.  This was a special-purpose BH army

         24  unit, and these were called Seroman, and they were

         25  stationed in the Vitez municipality, in Topuzovo

Page 3379

          1  Polje.  Do you know about this unit?

          2       A.   As far as I know, this unit did not operate

          3  in the area which was under my control, but I know that

          4  it was used in another area, and I do not know the

          5  exact size of the unit.

          6       Q.   When you talk about "the area," you're

          7  talking during the attack on the Vares municipality?

          8       A.   That is correct.

          9       Q.   There are also some special police units of

         10  Dragan Vikic from Sarajevo.  Were they also active in

         11  that area?

         12       A.   As far as I know, they were not.

         13       Q.   If you look at the chronology of this attack,

         14  first of all, the village of Dubostica fell, and six

         15  civilians were killed there, and that village was also

         16  burned down and looted; isn't that correct?

         17       A.   I was informed in the command post in Breza

         18  that the 2nd Corps came from Dubostica to Breza.  I do

         19  not know with what forces.  And the village of

         20  Dubostica was never burned.  It is still inhabited.  I

         21  don't know how many killed there were.  I know that

         22  there were a number of captured.  And then they were

         23  taken to Tuzla, and later on they were released from

         24  the prison in Tuzla.

         25       Q.   You're referring to the civilians who were in

Page 3380

          1  the village of Dubostica?

          2       A.   I do not know whether any civilians were

          3  arrested.  People who were arrested were the soldiers,

          4  the HVO soldiers who were at the front line.

          5       Q.   But the villages of Pogar, Tribija, Vijaka

          6  and Ivancevo were also taken at that time?

          7       A.   As the 2nd Corps were moving on, I think this

          8  was accomplished in four or five days, so I cannot tell

          9  you whether all that was taken in the same day, because

         10  there's practically no resistance except at Dubostica

         11  and partially around the village of Pogar, where a

         12  group which actually was left behind, a group of the

         13  HVO soldiers, clashed with the BH army.  And I think

         14  that there were about five dead on the part of the

         15  army, and those men who stayed behind were captured.

         16            I know this -- I learned this later from the

         17  commander in the field, who told it to me in Vares.

         18       Q.   Very well.  This area was attacked sometime

         19  between 30 October and 3 or 4 November '93, is that

         20  what you said, in that time frame?

         21       A.   Yes.

         22            JUDGE MAY:  Mr. Naumovski, in order that we

         23  can follow this cross-examination, we need to know

         24  where these places are.  Now, where are these villages

         25  which you say were attacked?  On any of the plans that

Page 3381

          1  we've got, I don't know if the Prosecution can help

          2  identify them.

          3            MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) These

          4  villages are in the territory of Vares municipality, in

          5  the area in which the Tuzla Corps operated.  I don't

          6  know whether all these villages are included in the

          7  map, but perhaps the witness could help us.

          8            THE WITNESS:  However you wish, I can help

          9  you.

         10            MR. NAUMOVSKI:

         11       Q.   If you could please tell us in which part of

         12  the municipality these villages are.

         13       A.   This is north, due north, northwest.

         14  Dubostica is about 15 kilometres, and then closer to

         15  Vares, about seven kilometres from Vares, is the

         16  village of Pogar.

         17            JUDGE MAY:  Let's have a map on the ELMO and

         18  the witness can point out the places, because otherwise

         19  we won't see them.

         20            MR. NAUMOVSKI:

         21       Q.   Mr. Mahmutovic, will you please look at the

         22  map and see if the villages are shown there, even

         23  though this is just a partial map of the Vares

         24  municipality?

         25       A.   So due northwest is a part called Sjenokos,

Page 3382

          1  and then Pogar is right behind it.  In that same area,

          2  there is the village of Dubostica, which is about 19

          3  kilometres from Vares.  And then closer to Vares

          4  there's Ponikva, Ivancevo and Vijaka.  Ivancevo is

          5  about 11, 12 kilometres from Vares, and Vijaka, I

          6  believe it's a bit more, about 20 kilometres.  And this

          7  (indicating) is around this communication line between

          8  Vares and Borovica.

          9       Q.   Is that on the main highway?

         10       A.   Yes, the same highway, and it follows the bed

         11  of the Kreva River and goes towards Borovica.

         12       Q.   With Your Honours' permission, I would like

         13  to ask you the village of Borovica, the Upper and Lower

         14  Borovica, and perhaps the map only shows Borovica?

         15       A.   Yes, this is the village of Borovica, and

         16  this is again northwest of the city, and it is the

         17  boundary line of the municipality of Vares.  And Upper

         18  and Lower Borovica are practically joined.  They are

         19  very close to one another.

         20       Q.   This village, Borovica, was not defended by

         21  the Croats, by the HVO; isn't that right?

         22       A.   The village of Borovica was defended by the

         23  Vares HVO, and this whole boundary line of the Vares

         24  municipality was defended.

         25       Q.   Just to make it easier for the Judges, how

Page 3383

          1  far is Borovica from Vares?

          2       A.   More than 20 kilometres.

          3       Q.   And Borovica was in the area of operations of

          4  the 3rd Zenica Corps?

          5       A.   Yes.

          6       Q.   Do you agree with me that this 7th Muslim

          7  Brigade also operated in that area?

          8       A.   No.

          9       Q.   Did the 7th Muslim Brigade operate in the

         10  fighting around the area of Vares between the 17th and

         11  18th October until the army entered Vares?

         12       A.   No, only in the time frame which we agreed

         13  on, which is when the BH army moved into the town

         14  itself on 4 November '93.

         15       Q.   So if I understand you correctly, the 7th

         16  Muslim Brigade did not take part until the 4th of

         17  November, '93?

         18       A.   No, it did not.

         19       Q.   In the village of Borovica which we're

         20  discussing now, let's say in both parts of the village,

         21  in the upper and lower part of the village, about 300

         22  homes were damaged or burned or destroyed?

         23       A.   I do not have the exact figure for Borovica

         24  village.  Most of them were burned; some remained.  I

         25  later went to the village once, and most of the houses

Page 3384

          1  had been burnt.  Only the newly-built houses were not.

          2       Q.   Do we agree that this was a large village, if

          3  you said it had about 300 houses?

          4       A.   I know that there was about nearly a thousand

          5  inhabitants, about 800 something, and I don't know

          6  exactly how many houses there were.

          7       Q.   There are a few other villages in the area

          8  where the 3rd BH Army Corps was operating.  These are

          9  the villages of Pogar, which is in the area of the

         10  village of Borovica, Przici and Tisovci?

         11       A.   I don't think you're right.

         12       Q.   Would you please tell us then where those

         13  villages are?

         14       A.   We already established that Pogar was in the

         15  other area which I notice.

         16       Q.   Yes, you're right.

         17       A.   And Przici is due east of the town of Vares

         18  itself.

         19       Q.   And which BH army unit operated in that area?

         20       A.   Those were the units of 7th Muslim Brigade,

         21  but they never entered those villages.

         22       Q.   But in these two villages, Przici and

         23  Tisovci, about 15 houses were destroyed?

         24       A.   Yes.  They were destroyed in subsequent

         25  combat operations of the BH army units which were

Page 3385

          1  moving due east of Vares.  Those were units of the 2nd

          2  Corps.

          3       Q.   On 3 November 1993, some 7.500 Croats from

          4  Vares left Vares in several waves.  First the Kakanj

          5  Croats left at the end of October 1993, for the most

          6  part, and then gradually the Croats who were the

          7  original inhabitants, and then a big wave of 7.500

          8  Croats left at that time.  Do you agree with me?

          9       A.   I have information which is absolutely

         10  accurate, which is that after the BH army entered

         11  Vares, 751 Croats stayed in Vares.  And the last census

         12  had 15.000, and I don't know exactly -- I cannot tell

         13  you who left when.

         14       Q.   If we are talking about the exact number of

         15  Croats who stayed there, would you agree with me that

         16  after the BH army entered, that is, all those units we

         17  mentioned, including the 7th Muslim, another 17

         18  civilians were killed in the town of Vares; do you

         19  agree with that?

         20       A.   No.

         21       Q.   Does that "no" mean, sir, that no civilian

         22  was killed after the units of the BH army entered the

         23  town?

         24       A.   I know that two civilians were killed in the

         25  lower part of the town, and I don't know about the

Page 3386

          1  others.

          2       Q.   Is it that you do not know, that you allow

          3  that it might have happened, but you don't know about

          4  the number?

          5       A.   Yes, I allow the possibility of this

          6  happening and that I'm not informed.  I'm telling you

          7  about what I do know.

          8       Q.   Thank you.  During all this fighting in the

          9  municipality of Vares since the 18th of October, '93,

         10  until the ABiH army entered, that six civilian Croats

         11  died in the municipality.  Do you know about that?

         12       A.   No, I don't think that there were actually

         13  six killed civilians and that so many of them died.

         14       Q.   But do you have the figure?

         15       A.   I know about these two civilians.  One of

         16  them was a Serb and another one was a Croat, in the

         17  lower part of Vares, or, to be more accurate, in Vares

         18  Majdan.  And at a later stage, and I cannot really give

         19  you the exact date, but I should say about 10 days

         20  after the BH army entered that area in the village of

         21  Borovica, four civilians were killed, that is, people

         22  who had stayed behind and had not left the area.

         23       Q.   But I meant all the civilian victims in this

         24  area, including Kopjari.  So from the beginning,

         25  chronologically speaking, do you have any exact

Page 3387

          1  figures?  If I understood you properly, you didn't have

          2  the exact data.

          3       A.   I told you all that I know about the

          4  civilians and the number of civilians who fell as

          5  victims.  All the other killed persons, all the other

          6  fatalities, are soldiers.

          7       Q.   But did not we agree a few minutes ago that

          8  there may have been other fatalities?

          9       A.   That is another matter.

         10            JUDGE MAY:  Mr. Naumovski, we have been

         11  through the victims now, and the witness has said what

         12  he can about it.  I want to get from you, so that we

         13  can understand it, what your case is about this.

         14            The background is fighting in the

         15  municipality of Vares.  There's clearly no dispute

         16  about that.

         17            MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) Your Honours,

         18  the only reason I ask these questions of the witness is

         19  that the witness began to explain why the inhabitants

         20  had begun leaving the town of Vares.  From what the

         21  witness said yesterday, I inferred that they began to

         22  leave the town on their own initiative, fearing

         23  revenge.

         24            JUDGE MAY:  It doesn't matter, for the

         25  moment, about what the witness says, and you are

Page 3388

          1  perfectly entitled to cross-examine him about these

          2  matters.  What I'm trying to find out is what your case

          3  is about what happened in Vares.

          4            First of all, is there any dispute that there

          5  was an attack on Stupni Do?

          6            MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) No, that fact

          7  is not disputable.

          8            JUDGE MAY:  Is it accepted that it was the

          9  HVO who attacked Stupni Do?

         10            MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) I'm sorry, I

         11  missed the question.

         12            JUDGE MAY:  Is it accepted that it was the

         13  HVO who attacked Stupni Do?

         14            MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) Your Honours,

         15  all I can accept is that there was fighting in Stupni

         16  Do on that day.  Our client has nothing to do with it,

         17  and that is all that I can say in this regard.

         18            JUDGE MAY:  Very well.  Now, you have been

         19  putting that there was an attack by the army of

         20  Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Now, can we understand what it is

         21  that you are, in fact, putting about this?

         22            As I understand it, this was an attack from

         23  the north of Vares which came towards the town, and

         24  then I think the evidence is that on the 4th of

         25  November, the ABiH took the town.  Is that right?

Page 3389

          1            MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) In part.

          2  Perhaps I wasn't quite precise, but Vares was attacked

          3  from different sides and by several corps of the army

          4  of Bosnia-Herzegovina, not only from that particular

          5  direction, not only from the northwest, that is,

          6  because it was also attacked by the 3rd Corps of the

          7  army of BH, the so-called Zenica Corps, from that

          8  direction, that is. The witness explained that.  Then

          9  the 2nd Corps of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the

         10  Tuzla Corps, and there was also the 6th Visoko Corps.

         11  So it was attacked from different directions, from

         12  several directions, not only the town of Vares itself

         13  but also that part of the municipality held by the HVO,

         14  including naturally some special units that we

         15  discussed with the witness.

         16            JUDGE MAY:  What are you suggesting happened

         17  in Stupni Do?

         18            MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) I've already

         19  explained it, Your Honours.

         20            JUDGE MAY:  You haven't explained it.  That's

         21  why I'm asking you.  Now, what are you suggesting

         22  happened in Stupni Do?  How did these 38 people come to

         23  be killed, according to you?

         24            MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) Your Honours,

         25  I don't know, because our client has nothing to do with

Page 3390

          1  the events in Stupni Do.  Of these things, another

          2  Croat has been indicted for these things, and the

          3  Tribunal has an indictment against him.

          4            JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation)

          5  Mr. Naumovski, what we should like to know is not what

          6  you think, but the strategy of your interrogation.

          7  Yesterday we told you already it was your method,

          8  rather than proceed directly from a question which

          9  would then answer you to go into details, you go into

         10  details, and we do not really know exactly where you

         11  are heading.  Perhaps it would be simpler for

         12  everybody, and in particular it would be much clearer

         13  for the Chamber, if you ask your questions directly, if

         14  you really touched on the gist of the thing that you

         15  want to ask directly.  Instead, you move through a

         16  labyrinth of questions, and we simply fail to follow

         17  you.

         18            So could you please -- you know what was the

         19  examination-in-chief; why don't you tell us in

         20  cross-examination what you accept, what you are

         21  refuting, and why don't you ask direct questions?

         22  Because we really have trouble following you, even with

         23  all the maps.  We have all the maps before us, and

         24  still we have difficulty in following you.

         25            MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) With regard

Page 3391

          1  to these last questions I was asking of the witness,

          2  Mr. Mahmutovic, I think we have reached a point which I

          3  wanted to raise:  That is, that Croats who were in the

          4  town of Vares and adjacent villages, and Croats from

          5  Kakanj who had arrived there -- in June '93, some

          6  15.000 Croats had been expelled from the municipality

          7  of Kakanj -- that they all left the town of Vares and

          8  its surroundings exclusively and only due to the attack

          9  of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and I believe that

         10  my questions were leading in that direction.  That was

         11  my only purpose.  That was the only thing I was

         12  pursuing.

         13            And I have only one question more.

         14                 (Trial Chamber confers)

         15            MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) I have only

         16  one question more regarding the entry of the army of

         17  Bosnia-Herzegovina in the town of Vares, if I may, with

         18  your leave, Your Honours; may I?

         19            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.

         20            MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) Thank you.

         21       Q.   According to statements of some UNPROFOR

         22  officers, and particularly, the units of the 7th Muslim

         23  Brigade and some other units simply looted the town of

         24  Vares.  Would you agree with me?

         25       A.   Yes, and it hurts me to.

Page 3392

          1       Q.   So we do agree that it happened; we don't

          2  have to ask any further questions about that?

          3       A.   We do agree on that.

          4       Q.   Thank you.  Now, a few questions about

          5  Mr. Kordic.  Yesterday you spoke about that, and you

          6  said you watched him on television, and if I understood

          7  you properly, some press conferences broadcast by

          8  television.  Those were your sources of information,

          9  weren't they?

         10       A.   I said I saw Dario Kordic's image on the

         11  screen.  It was not a press conference; it was a kind

         12  of report, sort of, from the battlefield, for

         13  Mr. Sagolj.

         14       Q.   So you never, in any of those transmissions,

         15  whether live or recorded, you didn't see any press

         16  conference in which Mr. Kordic had taken part?

         17       A.   No.

         18       Q.   You told us that Mr. Blaskic was the military

         19  commander of Ivica Rajic, who was the commander of the

         20  2nd Operative Group in Kiseljak; is that so?

         21       A.   Yes.

         22       Q.   But then you also told us that Mr. Kordic

         23  must have had a role in the command system; that was

         24  your inference, wasn't it?

         25       A.   Well, that seems to transpire.

Page 3393

          1       Q.   So you said that alongside Mr. Blaskic, and

          2  you said he was the military commander, that Mr. Kordic

          3  must also have had a role in the system of command?

          4       A.   Not must have had; he did.

          5       Q.   Yes, but that is your inference; that is what

          6  you said yesterday, "he must have had."  That is what

          7  you said yesterday.  Yesterday I also asked you if you

          8  made a distinction between the military and civilian

          9  power, and you said you did not draw a distinction

         10  between them?

         11       A.   I did not say that.

         12       Q.   I meant the HVO.

         13       A.   Within the HVO, there was no difference

         14  between them.

         15       Q.   So that is, again, your conjecture?

         16       A.   That was the state of affairs in the field,

         17  on the ground.

         18       Q.   All right, if you say so.  Thank you.

         19            Yesterday the Prosecution tendered a whole

         20  series of documents.  Yesterday we already addressed

         21  one of them, and that was cigarette contraband.

         22  Another document is Z128.  I will go through these

         23  documents in the order in which you received them

         24  yesterday, so it will be easier follow them that way.

         25  Document Z128 is a pass issued to Vjeran Mijatovic, as

Page 3394

          1  the Prosecution said yesterday, but the date is of

          2  importance here, and that is the 10th of June, 1992.

          3            Mr. Mahmutovic, do you know when was formed

          4  and when General Blaskic became the commander of the

          5  Central Operative Zone?

          6       A.   I wouldn't know that.

          7       Q.   But would you know it approximately, the

          8  month, or the year, part of the year?

          9       A.   No, I don't really know.  I wouldn't.

         10       Q.   All right.  Thank you.

         11            Document Z139, which is of the 23rd of June,

         12  1992, simply orders the HVO in the municipality of

         13  Vares to enable the operation, the work of the HVO in

         14  Ilijas, where it couldn't -- which it couldn't do

         15  because it was under the Serb control; you saw this

         16  document yesterday?

         17       A.   I saw it yesterday, and I know that Ilijas

         18  HVO was not under the Serb control.  It was together

         19  with the army of B and H, and that was another manner

         20  of getting the HVO in Ilijas from under the control of

         21  the Armija and have it join Vares HVO.

         22       Q.   But they were allowed to work in Vares?

         23       A.   Yes, they were pulled out from the control of

         24  Ilijas authorities.

         25       Q.   In document Z187, it's a document which is an

Page 3395

          1  invitation of August 1992, whereby Mr. Dario Kordic, as

          2  the vice-president of the Croat Community of

          3  Herceg-Bosna, together with Ignac Kostroman, who is the

          4  secretary of the Croat Community of Herceg-Bosna,

          5  invites the president of the Croat Defence Council in

          6  the Vares municipality to attend a meeting, and we have

          7  here the signature of Mr. Kordic.  We clarified it

          8  yesterday.

          9            This document, Z202:  Have you ever seen it

         10  before?  Do you know, whose handwriting is it?

         11       A.   I don't.

         12       Q.   So we know nothing about the document, and we

         13  shall not comment on it, because we do not know who it

         14  was written by.

         15            Z233 is a meeting held on the 22nd of

         16  September, 1992, and there are a number of interesting

         17  things in it.  The Prosecution mentioned some, but

         18  there is -- about Vares, we're talking, therefore,

         19  about September '92, and we are dealing with Vares, and

         20  it says that about 2.000 refugees arrived in the town.

         21  There were about 1.200 Muslim and 800 Croat refugees,

         22  and that camps were being built for them?

         23       A.   No refugee camp was erected in Vares.

         24       Q.   But that is the number of refugees, I asked

         25  you about that, in September '92?

Page 3396

          1       A.   You did ask me, and I said that at that time

          2  there were no refugees in Vares.

          3       Q.   So according to you this figure is not

          4  correct?  All right.  Thank you.

          5            Z229 is yet another meeting held in Kakanj on

          6  the 30th of September, and as I have said, it had to do

          7  with St. Mihovil's Day; that was the day of that

          8  saint.  It discusses some internal affairs in the

          9  municipality of Kakanj and the activities of the Kakanj

         10  HVO, but I've singled out a few sentences here where

         11  Mr. Kordic, on page 3 of the Croat text -- I wouldn't

         12  know if it tells us where in the English text -- it

         13  said that no option can be imposed on neighbours.  We

         14  won't go into -- we won't force our entry into the

         15  municipality, and so on and so forth.  When Your

         16  Honours read these documents, you will get a clear view

         17  of this.

         18            Then the document Z534; have you ever seen

         19  this before?

         20       A.   I don't know what this is.

         21       Q.   Because there is no signature, no seal.

         22  There's nothing here.

         23            MR. NAUMOVSKI:  Could we place it on the

         24  ELMO, please?  Z534.  I'll give my copy -- no, there is

         25  one for the witness; thank you.

Page 3397

          1       Q.   There are absolutely no marks; there is no

          2  seal, no signature, nothing.  Have you ever seen this

          3  document before?

          4       A.   Yes.

          5       Q.   What sort of a document is it?

          6       A.   Well, I saw it, such as it is.

          7       Q.   So you cannot give us the source or

          8  anything?  I mean, there is absolutely nothing on it;

          9  we cannot comment on it?

         10       A.   As you wish.

         11       Q.   I mean there is nothing to confirm as

         12  to authenticate it:  There is no signature, no seal?

         13  We agree that there is nothing on it?  Do we agree on

         14  this?

         15       A.   Yes, we do.

         16       Q.   Thank you.

         17            MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) And Your

         18  Honours, I shall be very quick now; now we're passing

         19  on to Z579.  This is a document in which Mr. Blaskic,

         20  as the commander of the Operative Zone of Central

         21  Bosnia, on the 30th of March, '93, appoints -- or

         22  rather confirms the appointment of the commanders in

         23  the Bobovac Brigade.

         24       Q.   This is a military document.  You saw it

         25  yesterday, and we agreed that it is a purely military

Page 3398

          1  document on the appointment of individual commanders?

          2  Will you please give us your answer loudly enough so

          3  that we can hear?

          4       A.   It is, yes, but I should like to go back to

          5  the previous document that we had on the ELMO here.

          6  May I say something?

          7            JUDGE MAY:  Is it on the ELMO still?

          8            Yes, if you can briefly, Mr. Mahmutovic.

          9       A.   I cast a look at the date:  It is the 12th of

         10  March, 1993, and I think it is the return of Serb

         11  prisoners who were in the prison in Vitez.  It is not

         12  true that it is not signed and that there is no seal or

         13  anything.

         14            MR. NAUMOVSKI:

         15       Q.   No, but what I meant is that we do not know

         16  the source; we agreed on that?

         17       A.   Yes.

         18       Q.   So Z589 -- and I don't have the second page,

         19  page 2 of this document, so I do not know who signed it

         20  -- but we see in the heading that this is a document

         21  of the Bobovac HVO Brigade, and it says the commander

         22  for the 1st battalion, the duties of each one of them.

         23  But, again, this is a purely military document, isn't

         24  it?

         25       A.   Yes, it is the appointment of various

Page 3399

          1  individuals to various posts.

          2       Q.   Yes, correct, but the signature lacks, so

          3  that we do not know who issued it.

          4            This, here, is document Z658.  This is quite

          5  simply a document signed by Ivica Gavran, who commanded

          6  the police station in Vares, of the 15th of April,

          7  1993.  Was he the commander of the police station, the

          8  civilian police in Vares?

          9       A.   You want me to answer?  Yes, he was appointed

         10  by Ante Pejcinovic and Zvonko Duznovic as the chief of

         11  police after the replacements we talked about.

         12       Q.   Please, you are mentioning those gentlemen;

         13  you told us yesterday that Malbasic had told us that

         14  Pejcinovic and Harah had been arrested.  I'm not sure I

         15  heard you tell us, who was it that arrested them?

         16       A.   They were arrested on two occasions.  The

         17  first time after Rajic came to Vares during the

         18  preparations of the attack on Stupni Do, and the second

         19  time they were arrested in the village of Dastansko,

         20  after the HVO combatants were requested to return from

         21  the area of Brgule and organise defence in the village

         22  of Dastansko, facing Vares.

         23       Q.   This is part of the events we did not talk

         24  about, so let us explain to the Court:  It was after

         25  the army of B and H entered Vares?

Page 3400

          1       A.   Well, to my mind, both before and after.

          2       Q.   No, but we are talking about the retreat.

          3  Let us explain to the Court that these are the HVO

          4  units until the Washington Accords; is that so?

          5       A.   Yes.

          6       Q.   And since we are referring to the arrest of

          7  Pejcinovic and Harah, who else was arrested alongside

          8  them on that first occasion, when Ivica Rajic came to

          9  Vares?  Would you know who else was arrested then?  If

         10  you know.

         11       A.   I don't.

         12       Q.   All right.  Thank you.

         13       A.   I know about the second occasion.  Zvonko

         14  Duznovic was also arrested then.

         15       Q.   Document Z1146, as far as I can see, it is

         16  the political platform adopted in Vares on the 19th of

         17  July, 1993, and we have here the signatures of the

         18  leaders of HVO in Vares.  It was a political

         19  proclamation, if I may call it that, but it is a local

         20  document, isn't it?

         21       A.   Yes.

         22       Q.   And I have another document which is only in

         23  English, Z1258.  Again, there is no signature, no

         24  seal.  This is a translation, so there need not be a

         25  signature or a seal, but do you know who General

Page 3401

          1  Milivoj Petkovic was?

          2       A.   Yes, because I had an order cosigned by him

          3  and Mr. Sefer Halilovic and sent to all headquarters of

          4  armed forces.

          5       Q.   Who was Milivoj Petkovic?

          6       A.   He was a soldier, and he commanded HVO forces

          7  in a part of Bosnia-Herzegovina -- as far, that is, as

          8  I know.

          9       Q.   All right.  Thank you.  I think it didn't

         10  take us much time to go through all these documents;

         11  perhaps a few short questions here and there, if I

         12  may.

         13       I believe you already answered, when the

         14  Prosecution asked you, you had no personal contacts

         15  with Mr. Kordic?

         16       A.   I won't repeat myself.

         17       Q.   Yeah, right.  We agree on that.

         18            MR. NAUMOVSKI:  Your Honours, I believe I

         19  have no more questions.

         20       Q.   Thank you very much for your patience,

         21  Mr. Mahmutovic.  Thank you too.

         22            JUDGE MAY:  Mr. Naumovski, perhaps you could

         23  just deal with this while you are on your feet:  First

         24  of all, the witness said that he heard about visits of

         25  Dario Kordic to Vares.  Is there any dispute that

Page 3402

          1  Mr. Kordic did go to Vares during the period we are

          2  dealing with?

          3            MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) Your Honours,

          4  the witness used plural, and I have information that

          5  Mr. Kordic -- and that is not at issue; it was a public

          6  visit to Vares on the 29th or 30th of September, 1992,

          7  at the time when Catholic Croats celebrate

          8  St. Mihovil's Day, and that was the reason for his

          9  coming there.  On that same day, this meeting took

         10  place in Kakanj, and Mr. Kordic dropped by on his way

         11  back from Vares, and that was one of the documents

         12  tendered by the Prosecution.  On that day Mr. Kordic

         13  gave an interview to the Vares television.

         14            JUDGE MAY:  Yes.  The other matter is this:

         15  The witness says that he saw the television programme

         16  in which Dario Kordic said that he hadn't taken any

         17  decision about the dismissal of Rajic.  Now, is it

         18  accepted that he did say something to that effect on

         19  television, or is that disputed?

         20            MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) Mr. Kordic

         21  did participate in a broadcast when this question was

         22  addressed, but as far as I know, I mean, it was -- the

         23  plural was used, "We shall see about it," and "We shall

         24  talk about it."  It was at the time when Mr. Rajic was

         25  prohibiting the operation of humanitarian organisations

Page 3403

          1  in Kiseljak and things like that. It was plural that

          2  was used.

          3            JUDGE MAY:  Very well.  Thank you.

          4            MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) Thank you.

          5            JUDGE MAY:  Now, Mr. Kovacic, do you have any

          6  questions to this witness?

          7            MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Your Honours, I

          8  would have a couple of very brief questions, and I'm

          9  sure that we will be over before the break.  I have

         10  tried to establish with my learned friends of the

         11  Prosecution whether they view this testimony as playing

         12  a part in the case against my client, but we did not

         13  manage to come to any agreement on that matter.

         14                 Cross-examined by Mr. Kovacic:

         15            [The witness answers through interpreter].

         16       Q.   Good day, Mr. Mahmutovic.  My name is Bozidar

         17  Kovacic.  I'm an attorney from Rijeka, Croatia, and

         18  together with my colleague, Mr. Mikulicic, I represent

         19  the second accused in this case, Mr. Mario Cerkez.

         20       A.   Good day.

         21       Q.   We shall be brief.  And please bear in mind,

         22  as Colleague Naumovski said, that the proceedings are

         23  being interpreted, so that you should make a short

         24  pause before giving us your answer.

         25            Mr. Mahmutovic, first of all, I should like

Page 3404

          1  to ask you what citizenship you had until April 1992.

          2       A.   I had the citizenship, the same as all other

          3  people, within the framework of the former Yugoslavia.

          4       Q.   And what citizenship is that?

          5       A.   Yugoslav citizenship.

          6       Q.   You said everyone; you mean the people living

          7  there, both Bosniaks and Croats, or rather Muslims and

          8  Croats?  They had the citizenship of SFRY?

          9       A.   Let me add the Macedonians, Montenegrins,

         10  Serbs, and Slovenes.

         11       Q.   Yes, but Vares was mostly inhabited by these

         12  others.  There were no Macedonians or Slovenes, mostly

         13  Croats and Muslims; there weren't many Serbs, even?

         14       A.   Yes, there were:  17 per cent.

         15       Q.   And all of them were citizens of the SFRY?

         16       A.   That is how it was.

         17       Q.   But after April 1992, when the Republic of

         18  Bosnia proclaimed its independence and became a

         19  sovereign state, what happened to your citizenship?

         20       Can you answer, please?

         21       A.   I don't see the purpose of these questions,

         22  Your Honours, but I can answer.

         23       Q.   Please do.

         24       A.   I became a citizen of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

         25  because all the people living in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

Page 3405

          1  and who considered themselves Bosnians, were considered

          2  citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

          3       Q.   Thank you.

          4            MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) With the help

          5  of the usher, could we look at document Z579 that we

          6  discussed yesterday and this morning?  Could the usher

          7  please place the Croatian version on the ELMO.

          8       Q.   Mr. Mahmutovic, we saw this document

          9  yesterday, and under point 1, we see the appointment,

         10  and to the right-hand side it says Mr. Borivoj

         11  Malbasic, currently holding the post of chief of

         12  artillery of the brigade, who for a period held the

         13  post of commander of the Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade.

         14  Are you familiar with the Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade?

         15       A.   No.

         16       Q.   You don't know where the zone of

         17  responsibility or the headquarters of that brigade was?

         18       A.   No.

         19       Q.   Thank you.  But yesterday, in the course of

         20  your testimony concerning Mr. Malbasic, you said

         21  roughly, Malbasic was moved from Vares to Vitez, you

         22  said, and you said, "I think he was the commander of a

         23  brigade there, but I don't know which brigade."  End of

         24  quote?

         25       A.   Yes.

Page 3406

          1       Q.   On what grounds did you tell us that he was

          2  moved to Vitez?

          3       A.   On the basis of the information I received

          4  from Vares, and on the basis of a conversation with

          5  Malbasic, who confirmed these reports after the

          6  beginning of our negotiations, after the signing of the

          7  Washington Accords.

          8       Q.   So Malbasic himself told you that he was

          9  going to Vitez?

         10       A.   Yes.

         11       Q.   Before he left Vares?

         12       A.   No, not before he left Vares.

         13       Q.   Then when?

         14       A.   After the signing of the Washington

         15  Agreement, and when Malbasic returned to the territory

         16  of Vares municipality.

         17       Q.   So that is in the second half of'94?

         18       A.   Yes, at the end of '94 -- no, I'm sorry; '93.

         19       Q.   Very well.  Thank you.

         20            I should now like to tender a document signed

         21  by Malbasic so that we can see where he went to from

         22  Vares.

         23            MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Could the usher

         24  please distribute copies to Their Honours.

         25            THE REGISTRAR:  The document is marked

Page 3407

          1  D22/2.

          2            MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) The document is

          3  written in Croatian, and there is an English

          4  translation only.

          5       Q.   Witness Mahmutovic, will you please look at

          6  the bottom of the document first, under point 4.  Will

          7  you read what it says, please.

          8       A.   The commander of the HVO of Novi Travnik,

          9  Malbasic Borivoj.

         10       Q.   Can we conclude from this that this is the

         11  HVO brigade in Novi Travnik that we're talking about?

         12       A.   According to this, yes.

         13       Q.   Will you please look -- the heading of the

         14  document, written by hand, rather the preamble, and it

         15  says that a meeting held on the 13th of January, 1993.

         16  That is precisely the period you referred to saying

         17  that Malbasic had left, so can we conclude from this

         18  that Malbasic was in Novi Travnik and not in Vitez?

         19       A.   Then my information was wrong.  I was given

         20  an erroneous information, both from my people and from

         21  Malbasic, because he told me that he was based in Nova

         22  Bila.

         23       Q.   Do you believe now that Malbasic did not go

         24  to Vitez, but to Novi Travnik?

         25       A.   Well, that is what it says here, so I agree.

Page 3408

          1       Q.   Can we further confirm this?  A witness,

          2  Ismet Sahinovic, testified in court here on the 21st of

          3  April, 1999, in open court, and on page 238, he was

          4  asked about the period when Cerkez and Malbasic worked

          5  together, or rather when he met Malbasic, and let me

          6  just read the relevant passage, "and the commander was

          7  Borivoj Malbasic, who was also present at the

          8  negotiations.  The date to the best of my recollection,

          9  was January.  I think it was the 13th of January,

         10  1993."

         11            So, Mr. Mahmutovic, we heard a statement made

         12  here by a witness who testified here like you and who

         13  confirmed that at the negotiations that this document

         14  refers to, the document you have just looked at,

         15  Mr. Malbasic had taken part.  Does it now seem quite

         16  clear to you that Malbasic was not in Vitez but in Novi

         17  Travnik?

         18       A.   I said that it is possible that the facts

         19  coincide with this, but there's no major difference

         20  whether he was in Vitez or in Novi Travnik.

         21            MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Perhaps not for

         22  you, but for the establishment of the truth, it is

         23  important.

         24            JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Mr. Kovacic,

         25  to establish the truth, yes.  Could you tell us what is

Page 3409

          1  the significance of this event, the fact that Malbasic

          2  was in fact in Novi Travnik, because we can't follow.

          3  What is the relevance of this information?

          4            MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Thank you, Your

          5  Honour.  I'm glad to be able to explain.

          6            The first thing I wish to show is that the

          7  witness is not 100-per-cent sure of all the things he

          8  has been saying.

          9            Second, an even more important point for me

         10  is that my client had nothing to do with Vares, and

         11  through the allegation that Malbasic, as one of the

         12  important people in the Vares HVO, was sent to Vitez,

         13  opens the possibility for inferring that there might be

         14  a link there.

         15            We now see, or at least I hope we see, that

         16  Malbasic never went from Vares to Vitez.  He was in

         17  Novi Travnik, and I think that this is a relevant

         18  fact.

         19            JUDGE MAY:  Well, Mr. Kovacic, you've dealt

         20  with that now.

         21            MR. KOVACIC:  Pardon?

         22            JUDGE MAY:  You have dealt with that.

         23            MR. KOVACIC:  Yes, I did.  I've just

         24  finished.

         25            There is only one small question, indeed two

Page 3410

          1  small questions, which one appeared just this morning.

          2       Q.   Mr. Mahmutovic, you spoke to us at some

          3  length this morning and yesterday about the Territorial

          4  Defence and the BH army.  You were a member of that

          5  organisation.  Could you perhaps tell us when, in fact,

          6  the Territorial Defence was formally declared the army

          7  of Bosnia-Herzegovina?  When was this, at least

          8  roughly?

          9       A.   I can't give you the exact date because I

         10  wouldn't go into that.

         11       Q.   But if I tell you it was in mid-April 1992,

         12  would you agree with that?

         13       A.   I don't think so, because it was still the

         14  Territorial Defence.  Then it was transformed into the

         15  armed forces, and only after that was it called the BH

         16  army, and this was a kind of sequence of events in the

         17  creation of the army.

         18       Q.   Would you accept that it was in the course of

         19  '92, then?

         20       A.   I said that I don't know the exact date.

         21       Q.   Very well.  You don't know, you don't know.

         22            MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Could we go

         23  back to the document my colleague was examining, Z534?

         24  I think the witness still has it before him.

         25       Q.   On the top of the page of this document, it

Page 3411

          1  says "Busovaca", doesn't it?

          2       A.   Are you asking me that?  Yes, that is what it

          3  says, "HZ Herceg-Bosna, HZ Busovaca".

          4       Q.   Yes, but you said that you concluded from

          5  this document that the invitation was for these people

          6  to come and pick up the prisoners in Vitez?

          7       A.   Yes, because I had information that there

          8  were two or, rather, three prisoners from Vares in

          9  Vitez.

         10       Q.   So you didn't conclude that from this

         11  document but from some other information that you had?

         12       A.   Yes, but I compared the dates and I thought

         13  that that corresponded.

         14       Q.   What date is that?

         15       A.   The date indicated on the document, and that

         16  is the 12th of March, 1993.

         17       Q.   So you claim that in March 1993 in Vitez,

         18  some people from Vares were held in detention?

         19       A.   Yes.

         20       Q.   Tell me, please, have you ever heard of the

         21  detention centre Kaonik between Busovaca and Vitez

         22  within the territory of Busovaca municipality?

         23       A.   No.

         24       Q.   So you never heard of Kaonik?

         25       A.   No.

Page 3412

          1            MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) I have no

          2  further questions.  Thank you, Mr. Mahmutovic.  Thank

          3  you, Your Honours.

          4            JUDGE MAY:  Any re-examination?

          5            MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation) Excuse me,

          6  Mr. President, a remark to follow on to what was just

          7  noted by Mr. Kovacic regarding a possible confusion

          8  between Vitez and Novi Travnik.  I think that anyone

          9  looking at the map can easily see that Novi Travnik is

         10  a few kilometres from Vitez.  It is the neighbouring

         11  municipality, and I think it is not contested by the

         12  Defence in the brief, the pre-trial brief, that in the

         13  period we're talking about, that is, in January 1993,

         14  the Novi Travnik Brigade was a joint brigade with

         15  Vitez.  It was called the Novi Travnik-Vitez Brigade.

         16  This is just an observation I wish to make, and at that

         17  time Borivoje Malbasic was the commander of that

         18  brigade.  Mr. Cerkez was his assistant for the part

         19  from Vitez.  That is my observation.

         20            I have three minor questions to ask following

         21  what has been said by the witness this morning and

         22  yesterday regarding the war presidency in exile.

         23                 Re-examined by Mr. Lopez-Terres:

         24       Q.   I should like the witness to confirm that

         25  among the members of the war presidency in exile, there

Page 3413

          1  were persons of Croatian ethnicity.

          2       A.   Persons of Croatian ethnicity within the war

          3  presidency were Tomislav Tomic, Ljudevic Miletovic, and

          4  Martin -- I think his name was Rovija, something like

          5  that.

          6            MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation) Thank

          7  you.  Two questions regarding the village of Stupni

          8  Do.

          9            The witness said this morning, in answer to a

         10  question by the Defence, that trenches had been dug in

         11  the surroundings of Stupni Do and another village,

         12  Arevici, I think, in the month of August 1993.  Could

         13  he specify for us in relation to which offensive or

         14  which possible attack against the village were these

         15  trenches dug?

         16       Q.   Who was the aggressor at the time the

         17  trenches were dug?

         18       A.   I apologise, I didn't quite understand the

         19  name of the other village that you mentioned.

         20       Q.   It is basically for the village of Stupni Do

         21  that my question relates to.  There's another village

         22  and whose spelling I didn't note down.

         23            But regarding Stupni Do, when trenches were

         24  built in August 1993, against which potential aggressor

         25  were those trenches being dug?

Page 3414

          1       A.   The trenches were dug exclusively to protect

          2  the civilian inhabitants of the village of Stupni Do,

          3  because the unit in Stupni Do, consisting of men

          4  villagers of Stupni Do, were assigned the task of

          5  protecting the territory of Stupni Do, without entering

          6  anybody else's territory, to make those trenches.

          7       Q.   I'm sorry for interrupting you, but my

          8  question was who was the potential aggressor that the

          9  inhabitants of Stupni Do feared when they were digging

         10  those trenches?

         11       A.   The inhabitants feared nobody else but the

         12  members of the HVO, because they were surrounded by the

         13  HVO.

         14       Q.   Thank you.  My last question has to do with

         15  the weapons at the disposal of the Territorial Defence

         16  in Stupni Do.  It was mentioned briefly this morning.

         17            You told us yesterday as well that the

         18  Territorial Defence of Stupni Do had a mortar of 60

         19  millimetres and eight shells.  As far as you know, that

         20  mortar and these eight shells, were they used when the

         21  village was attacked on the 23rd of October, 1993?

         22       A.   I can answer with certainty that those mortar

         23  shells, 60-millimetre mortar shells, were not even

         24  positioned and taken out from Husnija Mahmutovic's

         25  house.  They were not even taken out.

Page 3415

          1            MR. LOPEZ-TERRES: (Interpretation) Thank

          2  you.  I have no further questions.

          3            JUDGE MAY:  Mr. Mahmutovic, that concludes

          4  your evidence, and therefore you are released.  Thank

          5  you for coming to the International Tribunal to give

          6  evidence.

          7            THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

          8                 (The witness withdrew)

          9            MR. NICE:  Before the next witness is called,

         10  there will be an application in closed session, and in

         11  any event, I would like an opportunity just to check

         12  with the witness directly, the witness being somebody

         13  to be called by Ms. Somers, the scope of the

         14  application to be made.  I don't know if it's possible

         15  to have a very short break now or to take the general

         16  mid-morning break now.

         17            JUDGE MAY:  We'll take the mid-morning break;

         18  20 minutes.

         19                 --- Recess taken at 11.12 a.m.

         20                 --- On resuming at 11.34 a.m.

         21                 (Closed session)

         22  (redacted)

         23  (redacted)

         24  (redacted)

         25  (redacted)

Page 3416











11 Pages 3416-3455 redacted. Closed session.
















Page 3456

          1  (redacted)

          2  (redacted)

          3  (redacted)

          4  (redacted)

          5  (redacted)

          6  (redacted)

          7                 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

          8                     1.05 p.m., to be reconvened on

          9                     Thursday, the 10th day of June,

         10                     1999, at 9.45 a.m.