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  1. 1 Monday, 14th June, 1999

    2 (Open session)

    3 (The accused entered court)

    4 --- Upon commencing at 10.15 a.m.

    5 THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours.

    6 Case number IT-95-14/2-T, the Prosecutor versus Dario

    7 Kordic and Mario Cerkez.

    8 JUDGE MAY: I'm sorry we've been delayed.

    9 What we'll do is sit for an hour and then take a break,

    10 and then sit for another hour until 12.30.

    11 Yes?

    12 MR. MIKULICIC: Your Honours, I'm fully aware

    13 of the little time available to us, but I should like

    14 to say something. It won't take more than five

    15 minutes. However, I should like to raise a matter

    16 which I believe is very important for the Defence and

    17 for the trial as such, so may I have five minutes

    18 before we proceed to the examination of the witness?

    19 JUDGE MAY: Is it a matter which should be

    20 dealt with now, or can it be dealt with at the end of

    21 the day?

    22 MR. MIKULICIC: Mr. President, I think this

    23 will affect the testimony we shall hear today, so the

    24 Defence should like to clarify this matter before the

    25 witness continues.

  2. 1 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

    2 MR. MIKULICIC: Thank you.

    3 Very briefly, Mr. President, Your Honours, we

    4 have now come across innovative techniques which the

    5 Prosecution has introduced in order the expedite the

    6 trial; by this I mean the summaries of witnesses'

    7 evidence which are distributed and which are then the

    8 basis for the examination of witnesses by the

    9 Prosecution. The Defence did not object to this

    10 novelty, to begin with, because the Defence should also

    11 like to see the proceedings expedited; and secondly, we

    12 did not want to oppose an experiment, an innovation,

    13 before we saw how it worked in practice. Today's

    14 witness, Mr. Munib Kajmovic, is, however, an example to

    15 which the Defence has a number of objections, and we

    16 should like to present them now.

    17 To begin with, the Defence is bound to note

    18 that this innovative method is acceptable when the

    19 Defence is given the summary at least one day,

    20 24 hours, before the witness is examined, rather than

    21 read before the witness begins to be examined. And

    22 again, it would be quite acceptable, provided an

    23 important condition were met, and that is that the

    24 allegations in the summary as to the facts deriving

    25 from earlier statements of the witness are presented

  3. 1 correctly and accurately, and this is something that I

    2 wish to address on this occasion.

    3 To make it easier for you to understand what

    4 I want to say, the Defence has drawn up a small table

    5 in order to show how the allegation in the summary

    6 distributed by the Prosecution simply does not agree

    7 with the facts that this allegation refers to, based on

    8 earlier statements of this witness.

    9 Will the usher please help me to distribute

    10 it?

    11 THE INTERPRETER: Could it also be placed on

    12 the ELMO, please, for the sake of the interpreters?

    13 MR. MIKULICIC: The Prosecutor refers to

    14 earlier statements of Witness Munib Kajmovic which he

    15 allegedly made on the 13th of July '95,

    16 27 February '97, and testimony in the Blaskic case on

    17 the 10th of January, 1998. The Defence has tried to

    18 find those statements in order to verify the

    19 allegations; however, Mr. Kajmovic has never made a

    20 statement on the 27th of February, nor did he testify

    21 in the Blaskic case on the 10th of January.

    22 The differences may not be big, but I assure

    23 you, Your Honours, that we spent a great deal of time

    24 going through the records of this case. However, what

    25 we believe is more important is on the second page of

  4. 1 our document. In the left table there are found

    2 allegations from the Prosecutor's summary, and to the

    3 right is the statement to which a reference is made.

    4 By definition, they should be identical; however, it is

    5 not, and there are significant discrepancies.

    6 The summary says that the witness said that

    7 our client, Mr. Cerkez, was a military commander of the

    8 Vitez Brigade, and he was known as the chief commander

    9 of the HVO in Vitez; then, that nobody doubted that he

    10 was, in fact, in control of all military formations and

    11 special purpose units. Below this quotation indicated

    12 in paragraph 18 on page 3, it refers to the witness's

    13 statement of the 27th of February,'98, on page 2, in

    14 the witness's statement of the 27th of January, since

    15 there is nothing -- since the 27th February -- the

    16 statement of 27 February is non-existent, the witness

    17 said, "I know that Mario Cerkez was a commander or some

    18 commander of the HVO in Vitez and that Filip Filipovic

    19 was above Mario Cerkez."

    20 So these are two quite different, quite

    21 discrepant statements indicated in the Prosecutor's

    22 summary and in the statement of the witness.

    23 On the third page we have two more examples

    24 of this kind, in which one thing is said, reference is

    25 made to allegations, and yet in the statements and

  5. 1 testimonies, it is completely different.

    2 If we look at number 3 in the summary

    3 which -- yes, I'm sorry.

    4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Mikulicic, we can read the

    5 examples that you gave. But these are summaries; they are

    6 no more than that. They're not evidence, and they can

    7 be no more than what the Prosecutor thinks that the

    8 witness is going to say, or dealing with those bits

    9 which the Prosecutor thinks is relevant. The evidence,

    10 of course, is what the witness gives from the witness

    11 stand, and were he to give the evidence which you say

    12 is wrongly described in the summary, then, of course,

    13 it would be open to you to cross-examine on the actual

    14 statements to show that the evidence was wrong. It can

    15 be no more than a guideline as to what the Prosecutor

    16 wants the witness to deal with, out of what may be a

    17 very considerable amount of evidence; at least, that is

    18 as I understand it.

    19 Given for the moment that these examples are

    20 right, what are you asking us to do about it?

    21 MR. MIKULICIC: Mr. President, I agree with

    22 what you said, and of course I fully respect that. But

    23 with all due respect, unless we insist on the duty of

    24 the Prosecutor to present fully accurate data, then we

    25 are not saving any time because the proceedings will

  6. 1 again then be extended, and I see then no purpose for

    2 the summaries.

    3 So yes, the Defence is for this manner of

    4 evidence, but only if these summaries are correct and

    5 that I go by the facts that are referred to.

    6 Otherwise, I really see no use of this. Moreover, the

    7 Defence believes that in a certain way, that the facts

    8 might be manipulated in this manner, and this is

    9 something that we really do not want to see.

    10 Yes, I fully know that you are all

    11 professional Judges and that you will be judging the

    12 facts in a manner in which you do that, as

    13 professionals; but nonetheless, the Defence would be

    14 much happier if these inaccurate documents were never

    15 submitted to you for your examination.

    16 So yes, we are for summaries, but only if

    17 certain control is exercised over the accuracy of the

    18 summaries, and only then, if [unintelligible] will we

    19 be able to expedite the trial. Otherwise, we shall

    20 again have the facts that we will have to argue and

    21 which will force us to conduct further investigation.

    22 That is what I wanted to say, and of course,

    23 the decision is up to you. Thank you.

    24 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation)

    25 Mr. Mikulicic, I believe that the Chamber has already

  7. 1 noted that this manner of examination by the

    2 Prosecution, in chief, and this manner of organising

    3 the examination, on the basis of questions which derive

    4 from previous statements, has allowed us to gain some

    5 time, and I believe the Defence has also admitted that

    6 it has allowed us to gain some time to keep better

    7 control over the hearing and to ensure a fair and

    8 expeditious trial.

    9 Now, if you are asking us that this basis --

    10 I'm not talking about the summary; we're talking that

    11 the examination-in-chief is made on the basis of

    12 statements, and of course, yes, your request that the

    13 summaries be given you more in advance is fully

    14 legitimate. At the very beginning, we have already

    15 asked Mr. Nice -- we have told him that 24 hours in

    16 advance would be quite important, and that is quite

    17 reasonable.

    18 But as for the rest, you can intervene in

    19 different matters either at the moment when the

    20 question is asked, to correct the quotation, and that

    21 is what you said today, 27th of February. Mistakes can

    22 be found anywhere; one can find them in your

    23 documents. But you also have the cross-examination,

    24 and so far you have used it very much so that you can

    25 effectively show that there is a contradiction between

  8. 1 the previous statement and a question or answer asked

    2 during the examination-in-chief.

    3 I believe that with all these precautions

    4 taken note of, I think we are quite satisfied now that

    5 now, owing to the cooperation between the Prosecution

    6 and the Defence on the basis of this method, we have

    7 improved the conduct of the trial, which is very

    8 important for us, as you know, and we believe that we

    9 have also managed to speed things a bit on the part of

    10 the Prosecution and on the part of the Defence.

    11 I think we can proceed in this manner, of

    12 course with all necessary improvements which may be

    13 necessary.

    14 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Mikulicic, I'm sure the

    15 Prosecution have heard the criticisms which you make of

    16 this document. We have decided to proceed with these

    17 summaries, as Judge Bennouna has said, because it's a

    18 very helpful way of getting at the essence of what the

    19 witness is going to say, and it helps to concentrate

    20 the minds of the Prosecution on what they want the

    21 witness to deal with.

    22 You should clearly have the summaries in good

    23 time, and of course they should be as accurate as

    24 possible, but they are not evidence themselves and can

    25 never be. As I said, it's what the witness says in the

  9. 1 witness stand which is evidence. With that in mind,

    2 we'll go on.

    3 Yes, Mr. Nice, would you like to call the

    4 witness?

    5 MR. NICE: Incidentally, just to satisfy my

    6 friends, the statement they referred to is a statement

    7 of the -- there's a month error in the citation of the

    8 date of that statement. They had only to pick up the

    9 phone, as there's normally people here on the weekends

    10 and in the evenings, and we would have told them, as we

    11 always do if they ask us a question.

    12 Yes. Can the witness come back?

    13 Can I just add this as well while the witness

    14 is coming in? Twenty-four hours is desirable, but it's

    15 not always possible. As you know, we have a rolling

    16 programme of witnesses coming in, and our aim is to

    17 keep them here as little as possible before they give

    18 evidence. That means they are spoken to and, in the

    19 terminology of this place, proofed wherever possible

    20 the day before they give evidence. It's only when they

    21 are proofed that the documents can be prepared, and of

    22 course it's in proofing that sometimes additional

    23 material comes up.

    24 I give documents as early as I can. Indeed,

    25 I've handed to my friends this morning, in respect of

  10. 1 the next witness, a document that's incomplete and yet

    2 to be finalised because it was only prepared

    3 yesterday. But I'll do my best.

    4 (The witness entered court)

    5 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you would like to take a

    6 seat, Mr. Kajmovic.

    7 MR. NICE: For the Court and my friends, we

    8 are back at paragraph 16, having left off halfway

    9 through paragraph 22.


    11 Examined by Mr. Nice:

    12 [Witness answers through interpreter]

    13 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, were you present at a ceremony

    14 in Vitez in the summer of 1992?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Where?

    17 A. It was a parade of HVO soldiers when they

    18 took the oath of allegiance, and we were officially

    19 invited by the HVO military structure to attend this

    20 ceremony, the oath-taking ceremony.

    21 Q. Where did it happen?

    22 A. It happened at the town stadium in Vitez.

    23 Q. Who spoke at the ceremony?

    24 A. There were several speakers from the military

    25 ranks who delivered particular speeches, saying nothing

  11. 1 particular with regard to the deterioration of

    2 relations. But towards the end of the ceremony,

    3 Mr. Dario Kordic arrived, and he also delivered a

    4 speech.

    5 Q. Tell us, please, what he said.

    6 A. Sometime towards the end of the ceremony or,

    7 rather, this review, and as far as I can remember, it

    8 was about five or six minutes before the end of it,

    9 before the end of the ceremony when Mr. Dario Kordic

    10 arrived, and he asked to be given the microphone

    11 because he wanted to address those present.

    12 He delivered the speech, and to our surprise

    13 his speech was very sharp. That is, he was delivering

    14 a message to Izetbegovic, telling him to finally notify

    15 the Muslims in Central Bosnia that this was Croat land,

    16 that they had to accept that this was Herceg-Bosna or

    17 else anything might happen. That was the gist of it.

    18 Q. When he said "anything else might happen,"

    19 can you be any more particular about what he said might

    20 happen?

    21 A. What he meant was that unless a political

    22 solution was found --

    23 MR. SAYERS: [Inaudible] the witness's

    24 conclusion from the words of Mr. Kordic, I think he

    25 should talk about facts, what he heard, but I don't

  12. 1 think he should be permitted to express his opinions

    2 regarding conclusions that he reached from what he

    3 heard. Thank you.

    4 JUDGE MAY: What did Mr. Kordic say might

    5 happen?

    6 A. It is difficult for me. Now it's 1999, and

    7 that happened in 1992, and it's difficult for me to

    8 quote verbatim Mr. Dario Kordic. Naturally, I mean too

    9 much time has passed.

    10 But the gist of this whole speech was a

    11 threat to the Muslims in the Lasva Valley, that they

    12 had to accept the parastate product of Herceg-Bosna,

    13 whether they liked it or not.

    14 It was characteristic in his speech that he

    15 was addressing Alija Izetbegovic, that he should send a

    16 message to the Bosniaks in the Lasva Valley to accept

    17 that. That is, apart from addressing the Bosniaks who

    18 were sitting at home around the stadium and watching

    19 it, he was also addressing President Izetbegovic to

    20 meet his request.

    21 JUDGE MAY: That's far enough, Mr. Kajmovic.

    22 What you were asked is not to comment on the evidence

    23 but just tell us, if you would, what happened. Yes.

    24 MR. NICE:

    25 Q. What affect did that speech have on you and,

  13. 1 so far as you could judge it, any other Muslims who you

    2 knew had heard it?

    3 A. During that oath-taking ceremony, all people

    4 who spoke -- how shall I put it? There was certain

    5 views expressed that we did not like, but we were not

    6 particularly concerned or indignant about those

    7 speeches. But when Dario Kordic made that speech, we

    8 were all -- rather there were only a few of us present

    9 there, and we were shocked by that speech.

    10 After that speech, we were invited to the

    11 club premises next to the stadium itself and there was

    12 a cocktail party of sorts, and when we came there,

    13 Dario Kordic came to me and greeted me and said,

    14 roughly, "Well, how are you, Professor?" But we did

    15 not stay there long, but we were very shocked indeed.

    16 We could not recover after that speech. I

    17 had not had an opportunity of hearing such a harsh

    18 speech until that time.

    19 Q. Paragraph 17. If necessary, can you help

    20 anybody who wants to know about the detail of damage to

    21 Muslim properties that occurred after the time you've

    22 just spoken about? Just "Yes" or "No", can you deal

    23 with damage to Muslim properties, if asked?

    24 A. That damage, yes, yes.

    25 Q. Thank you.

  14. 1 A. Yes, there was considerable damage.

    2 Q. We've had it from elsewhere. Paragraph 18.

    3 A. Yes, there was major damage.

    4 Q. At this time between the summer or autumn of

    5 1982 (sic) and the spring of 1983 (sic), what was Mario

    6 Cerkez's position?

    7 A. As far as I know, he was the local commander,

    8 that is, commander at the municipal level of the

    9 brigade of theirs which existed at the time. I

    10 wouldn't know any details about that, any particulars

    11 about that. I remember them better by the ultimatums

    12 they put to us, that the local troops should be placed

    13 under the command of the HVO. That is, these kind of

    14 particulars I can say something, but otherwise I

    15 couldn't tell you much about Mario Cerkez.

    16 Q. We'll come to a particular matter of that

    17 sort a little later. But just in general, you say that

    18 he was the commander of a brigade. Does that brigade

    19 have a name or not?

    20 A. I think it was called the Vitez Brigade.

    21 Q. Was there anyone in Vitez known to you to be

    22 superior to him in a military capacity?

    23 A. Filip Filipovic was for a while, and then

    24 after Blaskic arrived, I believe that Blaskic was his

    25 superior.

  15. 1 Q. Were you aware of special-purpose units in

    2 the area; "Yes" or "No"?

    3 A. We knew that there were several of those

    4 units. But their role, their task, I wouldn't know,

    5 and I'm not particularly conversant with the military

    6 organisation, but we knew there were several such units

    7 for various tasks.

    8 Q. [Indiscernible] or any of them?

    9 A. Well, I know that some were called Jokers,

    10 others were Vitezovi Knights, but I really don't know

    11 much about that.

    12 Q. Could you help us with the 19th of October of

    13 1992? Was there an incident or meeting then that you

    14 recall?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Where and who was present?

    17 A. On the 18th of October, '92, I think the HVO

    18 attacked Novi Travnik, and to my knowledge, the command

    19 of our brigade, that is, the command of the army of BH

    20 in Vitez, was issued orders by Commander Hadzihasanovic

    21 to put up a roadblock in the neighbourhood community of

    22 Ahmici and another one in the neighbourhood community

    23 of Grbavica in order to prevent the passage of the HVO

    24 troops from Kiseljak and Fojnica in the direction of

    25 Novi Sad.

  16. 1 This order was complied with, and in the

    2 evening the headquarters of the BH army in Vitez were

    3 visited by Mr. Ivica Santic, mayor, and Mario Cerkez,

    4 and they asked us -- I was present in the room. They

    5 requested that the roadblock be removed.

    6 Q. Before we move on, is this the 18th or the

    7 19th, or can't you remember?

    8 A. I think it was in the night between the 19th

    9 and 20th of October, although it could also have been

    10 between the 18th and the 19th. But I think it was the

    11 19th to the 20th.

    12 Q. Very well. This was in the BH headquarters.

    13 Where were those headquarters?

    14 A. Yes. The headquarters were in the building

    15 of the secondary school in Vitez.

    16 Q. What was said between them and you?

    17 A. Since Ivica Santic came and said that he was

    18 responsible, that he was requesting the staff to remove

    19 the roadblocks in Ahmici and Grbavica, and they were

    20 told this would be done straightaway if the HVO attack

    21 against the army in Novi Travnik stopped and if they

    22 stopped sending units from Kiseljak, from Fojnica and

    23 Kiseljak.

    24 Santic then said that he could not do that,

    25 that he did not have the power, the authority, to take

  17. 1 such a decision and that such a decision could be taken

    2 only by Dario Kordic.

    3 We then said that we could not remove those

    4 roadblocks but that we should also like to talk to

    5 Dario Kordic so as to find a solution to put an end to

    6 conflicts. Ivica Santic said to that that we could

    7 call him by telephone, if we wanted to, and that his

    8 task was only to request the removal of the

    9 roadblocks.

    10 He gave us the telephone number, and Faud

    11 Kaknjo called Novi Travnik, that is, Kordic, and got

    12 him indeed, and we were sitting around the table. At

    13 first -- Kordic did not answer the phone at first, but

    14 we could hear quite well his raised voice and

    15 invective. I think he was cursing God. He was

    16 requesting from somebody in the room in which he was to

    17 attack the Armija in Novi Travnik with all the means

    18 available until they surrendered, and then at some

    19 point he took up the telephone receiver and said no

    20 negotiations would take place until the Armija

    21 surrendered, and any proposals to that effect were

    22 simply no go. That was the end of that conversation.

    23 An hour or two after Ivica Santic and Cerkez

    24 left, a shell was fired against that room, and

    25 fortunately it hit the wall above the window, about a

  18. 1 metre above the window, so that we escaped unscathed

    2 that night. But the headquarters had to leave that

    3 building because the HVO had attacked, and all the

    4 people had to withdraw.

    5 Q. One detail. So far as the phone conversation

    6 was concerned, who from your side was going to be

    7 speaking directly into the mouthpiece of the telephone?

    8 A. Faud Kaknjo.

    9 Q. Indeed, when appropriate, who was holding the

    10 handset of the telephone?

    11 A. Faud Kaknjo was holding the handset.

    12 Q. Were you nevertheless in a position to hear

    13 what you've described to the Court?

    14 A. Yes. I sat right next to him, and we were

    15 listening very carefully. We sort of leaned in towards

    16 Faud Kaknjo so we would be able to follow the

    17 conversation, and I was able to here it. I believe

    18 some other people were also able to hear it.

    19 Q. The second part of paragraph 22.

    20 Between the latter half of 1992 and the

    21 spring of 1993, were there any moderate Croats, or

    22 Croats who you judged to be moderate, who found

    23 themselves in positions of leadership or holding

    24 office, and if so, what happened to them?

    25 A. One could give some examples where some more

  19. 1 moderate people were involved, but at the top positions

    2 on the local level, you could not say that there were

    3 any moderates. Perhaps at lower levels, there were

    4 some, but I believe that even if such people existed, I

    5 think that they were not able to manifest that because

    6 they were afraid of being sanctioned by the leadership

    7 of the HVO. Perhaps Ivan Budimir would be an example

    8 of that kind, and later on he was killed by them.

    9 Q. Did you see Dario Kordic at any time between

    10 the oath-taking ceremony in the summer and the spring

    11 of '93, and if so, how was he dressed and how was he

    12 addressed?

    13 A. I did not see him, for the most part, except

    14 I saw him on television several times, and the

    15 television was broadcasting press conferences out of

    16 Busovaca. He wore a uniform and he was addressed as

    17 "Colonel". That is the rank that he had been accorded

    18 then. And also he often had a rosary with a cross

    19 which he held.

    20 Q. Paragraph 23 we've I think substantially

    21 dealt with. 24, towards the end of 1992, or

    22 thereabouts, were you aware of soldiers present in

    23 Vitez who were not local to Vitez?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. Tell us about them, in just a sentence or so.

  20. 1 A. This was a group of soldiers, perhaps about

    2 ten men, who were billeted in a house across the street

    3 from my own. They were Ivo Pocanja had a coffee bar

    4 called Patria, and that's where they were staying.

    5 Sometimes they would leave this house in uniforms,

    6 sometimes in civilian clothes.

    7 Q. And what could you tell about their origins?

    8 Where did they come from?

    9 A. I did not know these men because I had never

    10 seen them before in the territory of the municipality.

    11 One day I was passing by that house, and one of them

    12 stopped me and asked to exchange some money. He was

    13 looking to exchange some money, to exchange it into

    14 foreign currency. From his accent, I could see that

    15 they were people either from eastern Herzegovina or

    16 from Croatia.

    17 Q. Can I now deal with an incident in January

    18 1993 involving Mario Cerkez. Was there an incident

    19 there that you can recall and tell us about, please?

    20 A. Yes. On several occasions the HVO and HDZ

    21 structures -- that is, the local HVO government -- sent

    22 us ultimatums; in other words, they demanded that the

    23 BH army be placed under the control of the HVO. Among

    24 these people was also Mario Cerkez.

    25 So those were the only contacts which I had

  21. 1 with Mario Cerkez. On several occasions they asked

    2 that we accept their command, and of course they gave

    3 us ultimatums; at first not openly, but later on they

    4 were open. I believe that one such ultimatum was given

    5 in January 1993, when Mario Cerkez expressly told us

    6 that if we did not accept this command by noon the next

    7 day, that shelling would start; that is, that the HVO

    8 would carry out an attack.

    9 Of course, we could not accept this, because

    10 this would mean a direct attack on the state of Bosnia

    11 and Herzegovina. It was counter to all the laws of the

    12 country.

    13 Q. Can you break your narrative to tell us

    14 this: Was it explained where the shelling would take

    15 place?

    16 A. These ultimatums did not specify what

    17 locations would be attacked, but we were told that if

    18 we did not accept it -- in other words, one of the

    19 ultimatums was, if you don't accept this by 12.00 noon

    20 tomorrow, we would start an attack.

    21 So these were the forms of pressure that they

    22 employed.

    23 Q. You didn't accept this ultimatum. In the

    24 event, was there any shelling?

    25 A. No, there was no shelling. Specifically on

  22. 1 that ultimatum, we had even accepted it, because

    2 militarily we were not organised enough in order to

    3 counter the HVO, and with respect to one of these

    4 ultimatums, formally we took a position to accept it.

    5 But on that day, when 12.00 noon came, Mario Cerkez did

    6 not make a phone call, and the situation just remained

    7 tense, and they did not do anything.

    8 Q. At that stage, what part of Vitez were you

    9 living in?

    10 A. I lived in the new part of Vitez, but we held

    11 our meetings in the old part of Vitez. That is where

    12 the headquarters were after we had been driven out of

    13 the school centre, the secondary school centre, in

    14 October '92.

    15 Q. And the old part of Vitez, Stari Vitez, what

    16 was the majority population there?

    17 A. The majority was the Bosniaks.

    18 Q. What approximate percentage occupation, by

    19 one ethnic group and another, was there in Stari Vitez

    20 leading up to the spring of 1993?

    21 A. There were about 1.200 to 1.400 inhabitants

    22 in Stari Vitez. Out of them, 200, 250 were Croats, and

    23 the rest were Bosniaks.

    24 Q. 15th of April, 1993, please: Did you meet

    25 Mario Cerkez?

  23. 1 A. Briefly, at the fire station in Stari Vitez.

    2 A ceremony was held there that was to celebrate BH Army

    3 Day. That day is taken as the day of establishment of

    4 the BH army. Mario Cerkez came to this ceremony. He

    5 did not stay long because an incident had taken

    6 place -- I don't know the details, but there was a gas

    7 station, and he and some members of the BH army went

    8 there to try to solve the problem, so that I saw him

    9 that day in the fire station in Vitez.

    10 Q. What passed between you?

    11 A. He had been invited to this ceremony. We sat

    12 around the table, and meanwhile, as I said, this

    13 incident took place, so that essentially nothing

    14 important happened in the fire station that day, except

    15 that they were negotiating with the military structures

    16 to normalise the relations, and that the next day --

    17 that is, on 16 April -- a match should take place

    18 between the BH army and the HVO members.

    19 Q. What sort of a match?

    20 A. A soccer match.

    21 Q. Thank you. What time of the day, if you can

    22 recall, was this encounter, this meeting with Cerkez?

    23 A. As far as I recall, this was sometime in the

    24 afternoon. Perhaps 3.00 in the afternoon; sometime

    25 around that time, even though I am not sure. But it

  24. 1 was on that day, because on that day there was the

    2 ceremony which he attended briefly.

    3 Q. On the 15th of April -- just "Yes" or "No" to

    4 this -- was there a press conference by Kordic of which

    5 you subsequently became aware? Just "Yes" or "No."

    6 A. Yes.

    7 Q. How soon after the press conference

    8 apparently occurred did you learn of it? Same day,

    9 subsequent day?

    10 A. I learned of it as early as that evening,

    11 around 9.00, 9.00 p.m., from people with whom I had

    12 contact, because I was asked whether I had seen this

    13 press conference and what I thought about it. Then, of

    14 course, later on, during the military conflict, this

    15 conference was discussed at quite some length.

    16 Q. What was your understanding of what was said

    17 in the conference?

    18 JUDGE MAY: Yes?

    19 MR. SAYERS: I have to object on the grounds

    20 of unreliable hearsay at -- who knows how many hands,

    21 Your Honour? This witness didn't see the press

    22 conference, so all he is trying to do is to relate what

    23 other people, who may or my not have seen the press

    24 conference, heard about it and concluded from it. I

    25 think, under Rule 89(B) and (C), that sort of evidence

  25. 1 is unduly prejudicial and has virtually no probative

    2 value and therefore should be excluded. Thank you.

    3 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, perhaps you can

    4 establish at what hand he heard about the conference.

    5 MR. NICE:

    6 Q. First of all, was it one person or more than

    7 one person who told you about the conference?

    8 A. Regarding this conference, personally, to

    9 date, to date, among us who were in some positions

    10 there, we are still --

    11 Q. It will help, Mr. Kajmovic, if you just

    12 answer the quite specific questions I ask, at least at

    13 the moment.

    14 On the day itself, was it from one person or

    15 more than one person that you heard about the

    16 conference?

    17 A. From several persons, and they all believed

    18 that this was a speech that was going to --

    19 Q. I'm going to stop you again. Did you

    20 understand that one of those people or more than one of

    21 those people had heard the conference on the television

    22 or radio themselves?

    23 A. Yes, several people.

    24 Q. Can you give an idea of how many people

    25 speaking to you had apparently heard the conference

  26. 1 themselves? One, two, however many.

    2 A. Several. Several people. I don't know the

    3 number, but several people told me about it. Not right

    4 away, but over a longer period of time.

    5 Q. But I'm just concerned now with the same

    6 day. On that day, when you learnt about it, whoever

    7 told you about it, how long before they told you about

    8 it had it apparently happened? In terms of minutes,

    9 hours, or whatever.

    10 A. I heard about it sometime around 9.00 p.m. on

    11 15 April, '93.

    12 Q. And apparently it had happened at what time

    13 in the day itself?

    14 A. The conference was sometime in the afternoon

    15 on 15 April, in Busovaca; but as far as I heard, this

    16 conference was broadcast twice on local television. I

    17 think it was once around 5.00 p.m. and again around

    18 7.00 p.m.

    19 Q. Were the accounts that you heard, from people

    20 who had apparently seen or heard the conference, were

    21 they consistent one with another, or were they at odds

    22 one with another?

    23 A. They related approximately the same thing,

    24 that this was a declaration of war and that there will

    25 be an attack.

  27. 1 Q. That's all I asked.

    2 MR. SAYERS: Very briefly, Your Honour, we

    3 have no objection to any videotape of this alleged TV

    4 conference or any transcript of the alleged radio

    5 programme. Apparently it was broadcast several times.

    6 If there's such a transcript, then obviously that's the

    7 best evidence of what was said. But this sort of

    8 anecdotal information, derived from an variety of

    9 unidentified people over an apparently substantial

    10 period of time, is absolutely the essence of something

    11 that is untrustworthy and unreliable, and for that

    12 reason we object to it. Thank you.

    13 (Trial Chamber confers)

    14 JUDGE MAY: We shall admit this evidence.

    15 The reports which the witness heard were heard on the

    16 very same day as the conference was given, and

    17 therefore, to that extent, are likely to be more

    18 reliable.

    19 MR. NICE:

    20 Q. Tell us, please, what you were told, by those

    21 who heard the press conference, of its content.

    22 A. If I can only just make one comment, please:

    23 Kordic's speech on 15 April was confirmed in 5.30 a.m.

    24 on 16 April, and everybody --

    25 JUDGE MAY: Now, look, Mr. Kajmovic, we will

  28. 1 all get on more quickly if you would just answer the

    2 questions. What was it that you heard was said at the

    3 press conference? Could you please concentrate on

    4 that.

    5 A. I did not hear the speech given at the press

    6 conference, but people warned me, they levelled

    7 criticism against me: Why did we not prepare against

    8 the HVO attack when it was clear that it was going to

    9 happen following Kordic's speech?

    10 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, we are not going to get

    11 on --

    12 MR. NICE: It's problems with -- perhaps

    13 cultures. Can I try once more?

    14 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, it will help, I'm sure, if you

    15 listen to the questions and just answer the question.

    16 Now, what were you told as to the content of

    17 the press conference? That is to say, what were you

    18 told Kordic had said in the press conference? That's

    19 all we want to hear.

    20 A. It said that war was practically inevitable,

    21 and so everybody was in fear of what was going to

    22 happen that night. They did not say -- I was not told

    23 that Kordic had openly and directly said that this was

    24 going to take place, but everybody concluded from this

    25 speech that this is what was going to follow -- whether

  29. 1 the next day or two days, but soon.

    2 Q. Let me stop you again. From what you were

    3 told, which you say was broadly consistent one account

    4 with other, can you help the Judges at all with the

    5 words or the things that Kordic was said, by those

    6 people listening to the broadcast, to have said? If

    7 you can't help us with any particular words or any

    8 particular things that he said, we'll move on; but if

    9 you can help, then please do so.

    10 A. I do not recall these details, but people

    11 called us and criticised us because we were people who

    12 were supposed to produce these judgements --

    13 Q. I understand that. If you can't recall the

    14 words, I'm going to move on. We may come back to that

    15 topic later, but not for the time being.

    16 The first you knew of any attack by any party

    17 was at what time and on what day?

    18 A. You mean when the attack took place?

    19 Q. Yes.

    20 A. I was asleep in Stari Vitez, and about 4.30 I

    21 was awakened by the shells which were falling on Stari

    22 Vitez.

    23 Q. I'm now going to deal with the attack on

    24 Stari Vitez in absolute summary, and I don't want you

    25 to trouble yourself with detail, because it's been

  30. 1 dealt with by other witnesses and may be dealt with by

    2 other witnesses to come, so we don't need to deal with

    3 things repeatedly, but just answer these questions with

    4 one or two words, if that's appropriate.

    5 How long did the attack on Stari Vitez last?

    6 A. The attack started on 16 April, around 5.30,

    7 about half past 5.00, and it basically ended

    8 25 February, 1994, when the cease-fire took effect.

    9 Q. Within that long period of time, were there

    10 major offensives as opposed to continuing lesser

    11 offensives?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Included in those mayor incidents, was there

    14 the truck-bomb attack?

    15 A. Yes, this took place on the third day of the

    16 attack; that is, on 18 April, 1993.

    17 Q. Was there a further attack in July?

    18 MR. NICE: For the assistance of my friends,

    19 the statement of the 27th of February, page 3 --

    20 January, page 3.

    21 A. Yes, there was major attack on 18 July '93;

    22 there was another one in late January '94.

    23 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Mr. Nice,

    24 there's an error in the date, on the transcript. Maybe

    25 it comes from the witness. He mentioned the 25th of

  31. 1 February, that the attack started on 16 April, half

    2 past 5.00, and it basically ended -- that means -- no,

    3 perhaps it's not a mistake. It means the attack ended

    4 on 25th February, 1994, the year after?

    5 MR. NICE: Exactly, yes.

    6 JUDGE BENNOUNA: Okay. Thank you.

    7 MR. NICE:

    8 Q. The one detail only from the 18th of July '93

    9 attack -- and again, single-word answers will help the

    10 Court most -- at that time, was Stari Vitez being

    11 defended by yourself and others or by various people on

    12 the Muslim side? Just "Yes" or "No."

    13 A. Yes, Bosnian side, yes.

    14 Q. In the course of that attack, did the Bosniak

    15 side lose any soldiers, or none?

    16 A. There were no killed, just some wounded.

    17 Q. Did the HVO lose soldiers?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Were some of their soldiers left lying in

    20 territory that was under Muslim control?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Were the bodies of those soldiers searched?

    23 A. Yes, with the assistance of UNPROFOR.

    24 Q. And was paper found on one body, one soldier

    25 in particular, identifying where he had come from?

  32. 1 A. I received such information from the

    2 headquarters, that among the killed soldiers was a

    3 Croat soldier.

    4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, now, what is the

    5 point here?

    6 MR. SAYERS: I just would like a point of

    7 clarification, Your Honour, as to whether this is his

    8 personal knowledge or whether he is reciting something

    9 that he learned from other people.

    10 JUDGE MAY: No doubt that can be established.

    11 MR. NICE:

    12 Q. I think you've told us -- the information

    13 about the identification of the soldier came from

    14 where?

    15 A. I received it from a staff member, the army

    16 staff members, Nenad. It was their information, and

    17 based on his personal identification papers, they saw

    18 that he had come from Croatia.

    19 Q. Pausing there, the man Nenad, to your

    20 knowledge, had he been the person to see the

    21 identification papers himself, or not, or don't you

    22 know?

    23 A. I'm not sure that I know what document you're

    24 referring to. Are you referring to the personal ID

    25 documents? I don't know what the soldier's name was,

  33. 1 but Nihad Rebikic is the name of the BH army staff, and

    2 he told me that he saw the documents of this killed

    3 soldier and that he was from Croatia. I don't know

    4 whether his name was Nenad or something else.

    5 Q. Forget Nenad; it was my mistake.

    6 I see the time. I recall what the Chamber

    7 said about the break it was going to take, but I'm

    8 entirely in your hands.

    9 JUDGE MAY: How much longer are you going to

    10 be?

    11 MR. NICE: By the time I deal with it and an

    12 objection that I know is coming up, another ten

    13 minutes, I should think, at least.

    14 JUDGE MAY: We'll take the break now. A

    15 quarter of an hour.

    16 --- Recess taken at 11.15 a.m.

    17 --- On resuming at 11.38 a.m.

    18 MR. NICE:

    19 Q. To complete the history of Stari Vitez and

    20 the attacks on it, you've made reference to a third

    21 major attack. When was that?

    22 A. The first major attack was the beginning,

    23 that is, the 16th of April. The second --

    24 Q. I'm going to cut you short. Please listen to

    25 the questions. The Chamber already knows about the

  34. 1 first and the second attack. When was the third

    2 attack?

    3 A. The third attack took place on the 22nd, in

    4 the evening, the 23rd, in the evening, and the 24th, in

    5 the evening. The 22nd, the 23rd, and the 24th of

    6 February, 1994.

    7 Q. The nature of this attack, was it an attack

    8 by shells?

    9 A. These were attacks that went on throughout

    10 the night with shells and an attempt at an infantry

    11 attack.

    12 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, I would object to

    13 this question. I think that this question is clearly

    14 out of the time which is indicted.

    15 JUDGE MAY: I can't see that it does any harm

    16 at all. Go on.

    17 MR. NICE: I've asked all I wanted to ask

    18 about it, save only for this:

    19 Q. In the course of the overall fighting or

    20 attacks at and on Stari Vitez or from it, were any

    21 people from Stari Vitez taken prisoner by the HVO or

    22 not?

    23 A. During the attack, if you mean during the

    24 attack --

    25 Q. Yes.

  35. 1 A. No, not then.

    2 Q. Were soldiers killed in the course of the

    3 attack; "Yes" or "No"?

    4 A. On the side of the BH army, there were

    5 wounded, and possibly some people may have been killed,

    6 but I don't know the details. As for the HVO side, I

    7 don't know.

    8 Q. Paragraph 30, and I hope that my friends

    9 won't object if I put to the witness, to save time, the

    10 appointments he had. Just please listen to this,

    11 Mr. Kajmovic:

    12 Did you spend the entire time of this

    13 conflict in Stari Vitez, apart, I think, from a couple

    14 of occasions when you left with UNPROFOR or some other

    15 assistance?

    16 A. Yes, yes.

    17 Q. Were you appointed commander of the civilian

    18 police, were you in charge of food distribution and

    19 burial of the dead?

    20 A. Yes. I was commander of the civil defence

    21 staff, not the police, whose task it was to distribute

    22 food, some of the food we had in reserve, and to bury

    23 the dead and killed. That was the primary role and

    24 task of the civil defence staff.

    25 Q. Following the conflict in -- at the end of

  36. 1 the conflict in February, 1994, did you go to live in

    2 Zenica, where you are still working, you being unable

    3 to return to Vitez?

    4 A. Yes. Three months later, I left Stari

    5 Vitez. I am living in Zenica to this day.

    6 Q. Two other paragraphs I want to return to, one

    7 as I promised last week. But first paragraph 28. I

    8 want you, please, to answer these questions strictly

    9 "Yes" or "No" or by single words where that is

    10 possible.

    11 Did you learn of Kordic's whereabouts on the

    12 day of the 16th of April; "Yes" or "No"?

    13 MR. SAYERS: Once again, Your Honour, I

    14 object to this, and I'm specifically referring to

    15 page 6 of the first statement that Mr. Kajmovic gave on

    16 the 13th of July, 1995.

    17 The basis of this information is quite

    18 explicitly a rumour, and that's the word that's used in

    19 this statement, and that kind of testimony should not

    20 be admissible for the same reasons I have previously

    21 articulated under Rule 89(B) and C. Thank you.

    22 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, perhaps you can

    23 establish, with some care, the basis of this evidence,

    24 and particularly if it's as a result of a rumour.

    25 MR. NICE: Certainly.

  37. 1 Q. So, first of all, just "Yes" or "No". Did

    2 you discover his whereabouts or, to be precise, his

    3 apparent whereabouts, just "Yes" or "No"?

    4 A. I did receive information that it was in the

    5 post office in Vitez --

    6 Q. Stop there, please. Please, will you listen

    7 carefully to the instructions? When you're asked to

    8 answer "Yes" or "No", please just answer "Yes" or "No",

    9 Mr. Kajmovic. I know it's difficult.

    10 Just give the name or other identity. From

    11 whom did you learn this information?

    12 A. I cannot remember now, but I did receive such

    13 information.

    14 Q. Was it from one person or more than one

    15 person?

    16 A. More than one, several persons, though I

    17 didn't see it and I cannot assert it.

    18 Q. Was it on the day itself or on a subsequent

    19 day or days, and if subsequently, how long after?

    20 A. Roughly, I think it was a month and a half to

    21 two months when, on a couple of occasions, I left Stari

    22 Vitez.

    23 MR. NICE: No further. Paragraph 14,

    24 please. Sorry.

    25 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice, go on.

  38. 1 MR. NICE: I thought Judge Robinson wanted

    2 to -- no.

    3 Q. Paragraph 14 is the paragraph I said that we

    4 would return to last week, if necessary. I've reviewed

    5 the cross-examination, and I think it would probably be

    6 helpful to touch on it lightly.

    7 I want to take you back in time,

    8 Mr. Kajmovic, to the spring of 1992 and to the Bratstvo

    9 factory. You told us you were able to deal with an

    10 incident there. Were you present yourself at the

    11 Bratstvo factory at the incident in the spring of 1992?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. Did you see the defendant Dario Kordic there?

    14 A. Yes.

    15 Q. How was he dressed?

    16 A. In HVO uniform, a camouflage uniform.

    17 Q. By whom or was he accompanied?

    18 A. In front of the factory, there were about 100

    19 HVO soldiers.

    20 Q. What did Kordic do or say in your presence

    21 that concerned the factory and its contents?

    22 A. In view of the fact that the problem could

    23 not be resolved inside the factory, a meeting was

    24 scheduled in the municipality building of Novi

    25 Travnik. A meeting was held with representatives of

  39. 1 the Bosniak and Croatian side, both military and

    2 civilian, and he insisted that he be given two multiple

    3 rocket launchers.

    4 Q. Was anything said about payment for the

    5 rocket launchers?

    6 A. Yes. At the meeting itself, the director of

    7 Bratstvo, I think his name was Krizanovic, said that

    8 this could not be taken just like that and that

    9 somebody had to pay for them. Then he said, "I would

    10 sign and the executive board of the municipal assembly

    11 of Busovaca would pay for those multiple rocket

    12 launchers."

    13 Q. For clarity, who said he would sign?

    14 A. Kordic said that he would sign. I think that

    15 he actually signed a piece of paper.

    16 MR. NICE: Thank you. I turn now briefly to

    17 one exhibit. To put to the end the matter that I know

    18 is subject of objection, can I put in a collection of

    19 photographs of Vitez? We can deal with them very

    20 briefly, but they will then be available for other

    21 evidence where photographs are helpful, if that

    22 happens. So can this Exhibit 2207 be provided to the

    23 Court and to the witness?

    24 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, have you seen this album of

    25 photographs yourself before?

  40. 1 A. These are photographs of the Rijeka community

    2 centre in Vitez or, more specifically, the Rijeka

    3 neighbourhood community which was an HVO camp for a few

    4 days.

    5 Q. I'm going to go through them very quickly,

    6 and I just want you to confirm that the index is

    7 accurate in case we use the photographs on future

    8 occasions, bearing in mind, as I was informed by the

    9 interpreters last week, that when I did it too quickly

    10 in relation to another document, I made a mistake.

    11 So if we just turn over quickly, 2 is the

    12 Vitez police station; yes?

    13 A. Yes, that is correct.

    14 Q. 3, the post office?

    15 A. Post office in Vitez, yes.

    16 Q. 4, the police station?

    17 A. That is the police station.

    18 Q. 5, the public accounts office?

    19 A. Yes, known as the SDK in Vitez.

    20 Q. Thank you. 6, the post office?

    21 A. The post office in Vitez, yes.

    22 Q. 7, a department store?

    23 A. Yes, the department store in Vitez.

    24 Q. 8, 9 and 10, Hotel Vitez?

    25 A. Yes, the Hotel Vitez.

  41. 1 Q. Do you know whose headquarters were contained

    2 there?

    3 A. Blaskic's headquarters.

    4 Q. 11 and 12, the Workers' University?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. 13, part of Hotel Vitez?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. 14, the elementary school?

    9 A. Yes, in Vitez.

    10 Q. 15 through to 19, the Workers' University?

    11 A. Yes, yes, the Workers' University.

    12 Q. 20, Hotel Vitez?

    13 A. Just a moment, please. Yes, this is the

    14 Hotel Vitez.

    15 Q. 21, the music school?

    16 A. Yes.

    17 Q. 22, Hotel Vitez?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. 23, the municipality house, but I think you

    20 would say that these signs were put up after the

    21 conflict?

    22 A. Yes, the entrance to the house.

    23 Q. And you say the signs here were put up

    24 after --

    25 A. Yes, after.

  42. 1 Q. 24, the entrance to the municipality house?

    2 A. Yes, the entrance to the building.

    3 Q. 25, music school, police station?

    4 A. No. No, no. This photograph is the

    5 municipality building of Vitez, and to the left, you

    6 can see a little bit of the music school.

    7 Q. Thank you. 26, the music school?

    8 A. The music school, yes.

    9 Q. And 27?

    10 A. Yes, the same building.

    11 Q. 28, the hotel again; 29 --

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. -- the municipality building again, and 30,

    14 the hotel?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. We then come to the next topic. Very

    17 briefly, you told us that you conducted for your thesis

    18 a population study; is that right?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. As part of that study, did you research

    21 available material on the census of Vitez both before

    22 and after the conflict?

    23 A. Yes. I carried out research, and I came to

    24 certain conclusions.

    25 Q. Did you plot the information from available

  43. 1 census material both on maps and in charts?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 MR. NICE: I understand there's an objection

    4 to the product of this work being laid before you, so

    5 I'll let the objection be made.

    6 MR. SAYERS: With respect to the photographs,

    7 Your Honour, there is no objection. I had previously

    8 informed Mr. Nice that we objected to the proffer

    9 that's contained in paragraph 31 of this document, the

    10 outline of Mr. Kajmovic's testimony.

    11 The objection is a very simple one:

    12 Essentially, the Prosecutor is seeking to elicit from

    13 this witness expert testimony. In Blaskic, there was

    14 no requirement, I believe, in the Rules of Procedure,

    15 as they existed at that time, for the provision of

    16 expert witnesses' reports. Mr. Kajmovic was actually

    17 identified as and permitted to testify as an expert in

    18 the Blaskic case, an expert demographer and

    19 statistician and so forth, over the objection of the

    20 Defence.

    21 I believe that that was in the days before

    22 Rule 94 bis. Rule 94 bis states that any expert

    23 witness report has got to be provided to the Defence as

    24 soon as possible, but it shall be filed with the Trial

    25 Chamber not less than 21 days before the date on which

  44. 1 the expert is expected to testify. Then another Rule

    2 comes into effect that puts the onus on the Defence to

    3 notify the Trial Chamber, within 14 days of the filing

    4 of such a report, whether it accepts the expert

    5 testimony or whether it intends to cross-examine the

    6 witness.

    7 This gentleman is actually not qualified as

    8 an expert witness. He is not impartial, for all of the

    9 reasons that he has previously testified about. He was

    10 the head of the SDA party in Vitez. But more

    11 importantly, and significantly insofar as the Blaskic

    12 case is concerned, this gentleman testified on January

    13 the 19th, 1998, I believe, he informed the Trial

    14 Chamber that a copy of his thesis was available if the

    15 Trial Chamber wished to see it, but he had yet to

    16 defend his thesis. Indeed, he told the Trial Chamber

    17 that he expected to defend the thesis in June of 1998.

    18 I think he said: "It will be presented this June in

    19 front of the faculty at the University of Sarajevo."

    20 In paragraph 3 of the proffer presented by

    21 the Prosecutor, the last sentence states that this

    22 thesis has yet to be defended before the faculty. I

    23 think that the Court should know that it is a master's

    24 thesis, a master's degree, not a doctor's thesis or

    25 anything like that. This gentleman is a history teacher

  45. 1 from a small town; he has previously described Vitez as

    2 a fairly small municipality. He's not a statistician

    3 by training or by avocation; he's not an ethnographic

    4 expert, if such a thing even exists; he's not a

    5 demographer; and he still has yet to defend this

    6 master's thesis before the school of political science

    7 at the school of political science at the University of

    8 Sarajevo.

    9 We think that this report is going to be,

    10 (a), an expert report from someone who has not been

    11 identified in accordance with the mandatory

    12 requirements of Rule 94 bis; and (b), as he did in

    13 Blaskic, a mere conduit for many, many levels of

    14 hearsay evidence masquerading under the guise of a

    15 supposedly "expert" opinion.

    16 Furthermore, Mr. Kajmovic didn't employ any

    17 scientific methods. Instead, what he did was he went

    18 through the records that he got from the police station

    19 in Vitez, and he conducted, according to his Blaskic

    20 testimony, about 40 to 50 random interviews and

    21 admitted quite candidly to the Trial Chamber, to Judge

    22 Jorda, that he had not interviewed a single Croat.

    23 Indeed, Mr. Harmon, who was the sponsor of the expert

    24 opinion in that case, stated on page 5711 of the

    25 transcript that Mr. Kajmovic has explained why he could

  46. 1 not do such research.

    2 That led to Judge Jorda being very troubled

    3 by the admission of this testimony, which he actually

    4 allowed in, in the days before Rule 94 bis, and I'd

    5 just like to quote Judge Jorda's observation, if I may,

    6 from the Bench in that trial, page 5740 of the Blaskic

    7 trial transcript. He said that "Because you have a

    8 thesis which corresponds to what you believe, and to

    9 your commitments in the SDA, and as a Judge, I'm

    10 somewhat disturbed that you have this thesis."

    11 And we are, too, Your Honours. We believe,

    12 in conclusion, that this is procedurally improper; it's

    13 a violation of the express, simple, easily

    14 understandable, and easily observable requirements of

    15 Rule 94 bis; and it jeopardises the right of the

    16 Defence to reasonable disclosure. We have never even

    17 seen the thesis. We have never been told what this

    18 gentleman is going to say. And he is not an expert; he

    19 is just a student, at present, who has got a thesis.

    20 For those reasons, we object to any attempt

    21 to introduce expert testimony through this percipient

    22 fact witness.

    23 JUDGE MAY: If the witness is not an expert,

    24 as this witness has not been categorised in this trial,

    25 but he is a witness who -- as a student, as you put it

  47. 1 -- has made a study, why should that study not be

    2 admitted, whatever the niceties of whether the thesis

    3 has been defended or not? Why should he not be

    4 entitled to give evidence of the study and then the

    5 Court give it what weight it thinks it should have?

    6 You can cross-examine as to it. I'm not sure how

    7 significant the evidence is, but it will be open to you

    8 to do that. What is the damage and prejudice if that

    9 course is followed?

    10 MR. SAYERS: Because, Judge May, we have to

    11 cross-examine on the fly. We've never even seen the

    12 study or the report or any of the opinions. We have no

    13 idea what he is going to say, even, in his testimony.

    14 JUDGE MAY: What have you been given?

    15 MR. SAYERS: The only thing that we have,

    16 Your Honours, is a copy of the transcript of this

    17 gentleman's testimony in Blaskic, where he articulated

    18 a number of opinions; but even then, we couldn't tell

    19 what the basis for those opinions was, and nor could

    20 the Defence, because they hadn't been given the study

    21 either. So the way that the evidence came in was

    22 purely oral testimony, in a completely ad hoc way, and

    23 that's what we're confronted with right now.

    24 JUDGE MAY: Well, let me make some inquiries

    25 about this.

  48. 1 Mr. Nice, I hadn't appreciated that there

    2 were no underlying documents.

    3 MR. NICE: There are four underlying

    4 documents. I'm sorry they hadn't been produced

    5 earlier; it's my oversight for not distributing them

    6 last week, I think, really.

    7 What it amounts to is that at paragraph 31,

    8 over the page, is the only conclusion I'm concerned to

    9 elicit from this witness, which are two rather modest

    10 conclusions. They're two statistical conclusions.

    11 They're not dissimilar from the sort of conclusions

    12 that people have been giving, by way of estimate,

    13 regularly throughout this trial when they're asked,

    14 "Well, by what percentage, in your estimate, did the

    15 population increase or decrease as to its ethnic

    16 composition, and so on, by what percentages did it

    17 change?"

    18 In the case of this witness, by reference to

    19 a couple of maps on which he's charted information and

    20 a couple of charts on which he has charted information,

    21 he can give the modest statistical conclusions that are

    22 contained in paragraph 31, and that's all.

    23 JUDGE MAY: To the effect that part of the

    24 Muslim population left?

    25 MR. NICE: Correct.

  49. 1 JUDGE MAY: And that the Croat population

    2 increased?

    3 MR. NICE: That's it. It may well be, in

    4 fact, that these aren't contested by the Defence as

    5 conclusions; I don't know.

    6 (Trial Chamber confers)

    7 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic?

    8 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Mr. President,

    9 allow me to add a couple of words which may help to

    10 clarify the matter. First of all, I should like to

    11 confirm that we never received these documents, and

    12 therefore I'm convinced that we cannot conduct the

    13 cross-examination properly, because we have no way of

    14 verifying those data within a couple of hours or during

    15 the day. It seems to me that that would be highly

    16 prejudicial for the Defence, if it has no time to

    17 verify the data, on the basis of the Rules that my

    18 learned friend has already referred to.

    19 As for the substance of data that we might

    20 learn from this, I should like to recall that in the

    21 supporting material, the Prosecution has offered

    22 official statistical data; that is, the population

    23 census of the official institution responsible for

    24 this. That was the Statistical Institute of the former

    25 Yugoslavia and the Statistical Institute of the

  50. 1 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. So that was the basic

    2 data; that is the ethnic structure of the population

    3 before the outbreak of conflicts, because it was mere

    4 chance that census was carried out in 1991, and we

    5 received those materials as part of the supporting

    6 material.

    7 As for the migrations that occurred in the

    8 course of the conflict, I assure you there is a host of

    9 official data produced by various institutions, among

    10 which, I can tell you from memory, there are the parish

    11 authorities of the new Federation of

    12 Bosnia-Herzegovina; then there are the data of the

    13 federal authorities of the Federation, on which the

    14 financing and reconstruction of returnees' homes is

    15 being financed. These are exhaustive data. Some of

    16 them I have seen myself.

    17 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Mr. Kovacic,

    18 I think we all wish to avoid wasting too much time. In

    19 reality, one testimony does not exclude others. If

    20 there is an evaluation to be given, it is up to the

    21 Chamber to judge the weight of it. This does not mean

    22 to say that there is no other information coming from

    23 other sources and which will also be conveyed to the

    24 Chamber, either by the Prosecution or the Defence.

    25 Therefore I think we should try to save time, hearing

  51. 1 one estimate that is not a global expertise, or

    2 thesis. Regardless of the level of that thesis, it is

    3 simply a question put by the Prosecution to the

    4 witness. Do you have a fundamental objection if this

    5 witness is asked for his estimate, for what it's

    6 worth? I think these are not crucial issues, and we

    7 should avoid too much argument over them. Thank you.

    8 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Your Honours,

    9 in answer to the question you have put to me, the

    10 answer is yes, I do have an objection, because I think

    11 that such a matter will be part of the record as an

    12 opinion of an expert person whom we are indirectly

    13 proclaiming to be an expert witness. As for saving

    14 time, my objection is partly along those lines too.

    15 Instead of focusing on qualitative, trustworthy

    16 evidence, which it is up to the Prosecution to provide,

    17 we are substituting existing and accessible data with

    18 non-reliable sources, and we are wasting time in the

    19 process. That is my point. Thank you.

    20 (Trial Chamber confers)

    21 JUDGE MAY: We really are concerned about the

    22 time being wasted in this trial on what is a relatively

    23 trivial issue.

    24 First of all, this witness is not being put

    25 forward as an expert. Now, it may be that in some

  52. 1 jurisdictions, people other than experts cannot give

    2 their opinion. That rule does not apply, as far as I

    3 know, in this jurisdiction. This witness has made a

    4 study of the topic, and in our judgement he's perfectly

    5 entitled to put forward what his conclusions are.

    6 The issue is a relatively narrow one and not,

    7 I should have thought, of great significance. If the

    8 Defence wish to cross-examine at length on it, they

    9 will be subject to the direction of the Court, but no

    10 doubt any relevant documents can be disclosed.

    11 Meanwhile, other evidence, no doubt, can be called

    12 about it, if there are better sources, by the Defence.

    13 But we really hope not too much time is going to be

    14 taken up with what looks to be a very small point.

    15 Yes. Call the evidence, and briefly,

    16 please.

    17 MR. NICE: Can the witness, I think, have

    18 collectively the table 2140, table 2153? That's in

    19 B/C/S, but it's probably -- and it's got the English

    20 and French translations attached to it. Can he also

    21 have the map 2141 and the map 2154? Please put the

    22 demographic map for 1991 on the ELMO. Thank you.

    23 Q. Did you prepare this document as part of your

    24 studies; "Yes" or "No"?

    25 A. Yes.

  53. 1 Q. The dots are keyed as to the ethnic origin of

    2 people resident in particular areas; is that correct?

    3 A. It is.

    4 Q. From where did you get the information that

    5 identifies those who were Croats, Bosniaks, Serbs and

    6 then Yugoslavians and others? Where did you get the

    7 information from?

    8 A. It was like this: If I may just briefly

    9 comment, the objection of the Defence --

    10 Q. I don't want you to comment, I want you to --

    11 no, don't bother with what happens in Court. Please

    12 listen to the questions. Just tell us, where did you

    13 get the information as translated in blue, red, green,

    14 and black dots?

    15 A. Yes, these are official statistical data,

    16 rather the data of the statistical administration of

    17 the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, dating to 1991, so

    18 these are official data.

    19 MR. NICE: Thank you. Can he have the

    20 demographic map for 1996, which is another map that

    21 looks like this? I trust the Court has got it.

    22 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

    23 MR. NICE: Would you mind putting it on the

    24 ELMO?

    25 Q. This relates to 1996 and to a smaller area.

  54. 1 From where did you get this information?

    2 A. Yes, these are the results I arrived at

    3 through the investigation and analysis of different

    4 sources. The ethnic composition of the population in

    5 the municipality of Vitez looks more or less as it is

    6 represented on this map. New figures will become

    7 available only after a new census. Of course, there

    8 hasn't been a census now but there are some estimates

    9 of the statistical administration of the Republic of

    10 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and they are at very little

    11 variance with the figures that I arrived at. I even

    12 think that the figures that I came to are more accurate

    13 than the estimates of the statistical administration of

    14 the Republic.

    15 MR. NICE: That's all I wanted. May we look,

    16 please, then --

    17 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Mr. Nice,

    18 the Court does need to know certain things. There

    19 is a legend here explaining different colours, and we

    20 need a minimum interpretation, if possible.

    21 Could I have the translation of the legend of

    22 these symbols, the thing that is in a box here? We

    23 cannot read Serbo-Croatian, and I can't see any other

    24 language that I would understand, explaining what the

    25 signs mean.

  55. 1 MR. NICE:

    2 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, will you look at the box?

    3 Perhaps the unit could focus down on the box

    4 and enlarge it on the ELMO. The box contains a key.

    5 Can you tell us, the first colour in blue,

    6 "Hrvati" is "Croat", the second in green is Bosniak?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. The third, "Ostali" is "Other"?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. The black line means what?

    11 A. The black line means the boundaries of the

    12 Vitez municipality, between the Vitez municipality and

    13 other municipalities, but there is an error here. The

    14 dotted line is the boundary between the Vitez and

    15 adjacent municipalities, and the full line is

    16 practically the line separating the part of the Vitez

    17 municipality which continued under the HVO control and

    18 the other part which remained under the administrative

    19 control of the lawful BH authorities. These green,

    20 blue and white circles indicate the ethnic structure

    21 or, rather, the exchange after the aggression.

    22 Of course, we have here the data showing that

    23 the Croat population in the municipality of Vitez has

    24 risen by some 20 per cent, that it was about 45

    25 per cent formerly and it has reached some 64,98, and

  56. 1 correspondingly, of course, a drop in the share of the

    2 Bosniak population expelled from the territory of the

    3 Vitez municipality.

    4 Q. The drop in the Bosniak population was by

    5 what percentage, approximately?

    6 A. The drop was -- well, we have it here. From

    7 41 to 33,763 per cent, so it would make a decline of

    8 about seven per cent.

    9 Q. That's all I need, save only for this: There

    10 are two tables produced to the Court which you might

    11 just look at to identify, numbers 2140 and 2153. Do

    12 those tables contain -- and here the documents are in

    13 B/C/S, English and French. Do those documents contain,

    14 in tabulated form, information about population at

    15 various locations including Vitez? Just "Yes" or "No"

    16 to that.

    17 A. Yes, yes.

    18 MR. NICE: Thank you. You can answer

    19 questions about that, if asked.

    20 Thank you very much.

    21 A. Yes, this table shows the ethnic structure

    22 according to the 1991 census. According to the

    23 so-called --

    24 MR. NICE: Mr. Kajmovic, you've given the

    25 evidence we need, the table is self-explanatory, and it

  57. 1 may be the others will ask you questions. Maybe they

    2 won't.

    3 Thank you. You'll be asked further

    4 questions.

    5 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Who is going to

    6 cross-examine?

    7 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Mr. President,

    8 I should first like to suggest that we be given some

    9 time to prepare for the cross-examination. I am

    10 suggesting this because this witness, less perhaps so

    11 on Friday, but today very evidently was examined in

    12 much greater detail and much greater depth than

    13 indicated by his previous statements.

    14 We were quite taken by surprise by some

    15 things that today we could not find all that detail in

    16 earlier statements, not even in the Prosecutor's

    17 summary could we find anything, or there were

    18 discrepancies between the statements in summaries and

    19 the evidence of the witness, and for no other reason

    20 than for a more rational approach to cross-examination

    21 and to avoid repetition and going back to some of the

    22 subjects.

    23 Secondly, in view of the breadth and the

    24 surprises, we should also like to ask for your

    25 permission to split it. We have two Defence counsel in

  58. 1 this matter, and we should like to split it in two, for

    2 one to examine the witness as to his evidence and the

    3 other one to go through the diary which was given us

    4 under the discovery period, so that we could proceed

    5 quicker.

    6 We should like to start our cross-examination

    7 tomorrow, because there were a number of new facts

    8 which we did not hear before and we did not hear from

    9 our client either.

    10 Thank you.

    11 (Trial Chamber confers)

    12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, are you ready to

    13 cross-examine?

    14 MR. SAYERS: Yes, Your Honour, I am.

    15 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Kovacic, we're not

    16 going to allow two cross-examinations. Only one is

    17 allowed. It's more than enough per accused.

    18 Secondly, you've got until half past 2.00 to

    19 get ready.

    20 Yes.

    21 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

    22 Cross-examined by Mr. Sayers.

    23 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, my name is Steve Sayers. I

    24 represent Dario Kordic. Good morning.

    25 A. Good morning.

  59. 1 Q. I believe, sir, that you have given two

    2 previous statements to the investigators helping the

    3 Prosecutor in this case. Is that correct?

    4 A. One, as far as I know, in 1995.

    5 Q. You gave a statement to Mr. Gerns on July 13,

    6 1995; correct?

    7 A. Yes.

    8 Q. A lady by the name of Emina Kaknjo was

    9 present at that interview, I believe.

    10 A. I don't remember what was the interpreter's

    11 name.

    12 Q. Well, according to the face page of your

    13 statement, sir, John Gerns was the interviewer. You

    14 remember him?

    15 A. I believe it was a Pakistani.

    16 Q. The interpreter, and forgive me for my

    17 abysmal pronunciation, is Adisa Karamuratovic. Do you

    18 remember her?

    19 A. No, I don't. There were several interpreters

    20 and I don't remember all these things, because the

    21 statement was made one day and then the next day there

    22 were corrections made to it and then checks. There

    23 were further conversations related to the statement. I

    24 really can't go into the method used by the

    25 investigation team.

  60. 1 Q. The name of the other person present at this

    2 interview, at least according to your statement, is

    3 Emina Kaknjo. Do you know her?

    4 A. There were several interpreters, there were a

    5 number of interpreters. I paid no attention to such

    6 detail.

    7 Q. All right. Then you said that you gave a

    8 statement at which you believe another person was

    9 present. Was that person Ehsan Ullah Bajwa? Does that

    10 ring a bell?

    11 A. I don't know. I mean this was completely

    12 irrelevant to me, and I think it's quite immaterial. I

    13 don't think it is important. It is the investigation

    14 team that did their job, and I really wasn't interested

    15 in all that, so that names I never remembered. Nor did

    16 I try to remember them.

    17 Q. The point is the second statement you gave to

    18 the Tribunal's investigators was about two years later

    19 on January 27th, 1997. Do you remember that?

    20 A. If you mean the evidence about demographic

    21 changes in the Vitez municipality, well, it wasn't much

    22 of a statement because I came here to testify.

    23 Q. Well, just to clear this up, since you seem

    24 to be in some confusion, sir, maybe it would be a good

    25 idea if I showed you your two statements.

  61. 1 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked D33/1.

    2 A. This is a supplement to the first statement,

    3 and that is all there is to it. Yes, that is one and

    4 one only statement, and this was a supplement to the

    5 first statement.

    6 MR. SAYERS:

    7 Q. Just wait for the question, Mr. Kajmovic. I

    8 think we can clear this up in short order.

    9 I believe that on the ELMO right now is a

    10 statement that you gave on July the 13th, 1995, and I

    11 would just like you to take a look at the last page and

    12 confirm that that's your signature, sir.

    13 A. Yes, it is, a supplement to the first

    14 statement.

    15 Q. The second statement that you gave --

    16 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked

    17 D34/1.

    18 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, when we get to a

    19 convenient moment, we'll adjourn.

    20 MR. SAYERS: If I could just get the witness

    21 to authenticate these documents, I think that's an

    22 appropriate point, Your Honour.

    23 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

    24 MR. SAYERS:

    25 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, the second statement is

  62. 1 actually the one that you gave to the investigators two

    2 years or one and a half years --

    3 A. Yes, but we see it as one statement.

    4 Q. All right. Just one set of questions on this

    5 before the break.

    6 The purpose of a second statement was to

    7 explain and clarify some of the unclear statements that

    8 you had made one and a half years earlier, wasn't it?

    9 A. I suppose so. No, excuse me. When I was

    10 making that first part, if I call it that, of the

    11 statement, perhaps some things we did not say because

    12 we were more or less answering questions of the

    13 Prosecutor's office, that is, answering what he had to

    14 ask us. Then subsequently -- well, and there were a

    15 number of interviews until eventually we finally made,

    16 shall I say, the rounded-off statement, the complete

    17 statement. So that was it.

    18 Q. You did say in the first paragraph of the

    19 statement that the purpose was to explain and clarify

    20 some of the points arising from the last statement;

    21 right?

    22 A. Possibly the first statement was not

    23 complete. Perhaps it did not cover all the detail or

    24 the particulars and things. These things are

    25 irrelevant. I'm quite ready to answer questions

  63. 1 related to these statements.

    2 MR. SAYERS: Your Honour, that might be a

    3 convenient point.

    4 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll adjourn now. We'll

    5 sit again at half past 2.00 or as early as possible

    6 thereafter. We're holding an initial appearance, as

    7 you know, at 2.00.

    8 Mr. Kajmovic, could you be back, please, at

    9 half past 2.00 to continue your evidence?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.30 p.m.















  64. 1 --- On resuming at 2.35 p.m.

    2 MR. SAYERS: Thank you, Your Honour.

    3 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Kajmovic. Just to close

    4 the loop on the statements that we were looking at, do

    5 you or do you not know someone by the name of Emina

    6 Kaknjo?

    7 A. I believe that I would able to recognise

    8 her.

    9 Q. Now, during the time that you've been talking

    10 about, you actually kept a contemporaneous diary

    11 consisting of some hundreds of pages, did you not?

    12 A. It was not a diary, but there were certain

    13 notes from a particular period.

    14 Q. But you kept an ongoing chronicle, if you

    15 like, of significant things that you would make a note

    16 of; right?

    17 A. They weren't crucial things. They were just

    18 notes which are sort of minutes necessary when you

    19 attend meetings. So these were really notes from

    20 certain meetings as well as for certain meetings.

    21 Q. Right. And in fact, in your diary, you go on

    22 to describe or to make notes of meetings that you and

    23 your colleagues had with members of the HVO, or the

    24 Croat side, if you like, over the course of about a

    25 year, from the middle of 1992 until about the middle of

  65. 1 1993; isn't that right?

    2 A. I kept certain notes which were necessary for

    3 me. Sometimes they were more copies than at others,

    4 and I don't know exactly which notebook you're

    5 referring to, which notes, so I'm not clear on that.

    6 It is possible that some of the notes, these are notes

    7 which the HVO found in my house after the beginning of

    8 the conflict and the occupation of the town of Vitez,

    9 so to speak. In other words, I would need to know

    10 which notes you're referring to, and then I could be

    11 more specific and say more what you're referring to.

    12 MR. SAYERS: With the Chamber's permission, I

    13 only have one copy of this rather substantial document

    14 that we actually received from the Prosecution. I

    15 would like to show it to the witness and just have him

    16 authenticate it.

    17 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

    18 MR. SAYERS: Thank you.

    19 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, do you recognise the document

    20 that we've put in front of you, ignoring for a moment

    21 the yellow tabs, which I've put on that document

    22 myself?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. And is that the chronicle or series of notes

    25 to which you have just referred?

  66. 1 A. I would need to review it a little bit.

    2 Yes, this is, I believe, one of these

    3 notebooks. It is my handwriting, and it could be one

    4 of my notebooks. It could be either one of the ones

    5 which I had turned over to the Prosecution or one of

    6 the ones which you may have acquired in another way.

    7 But from the pages which I have gone through, I can see

    8 that this is my signature, and this is my notebook.

    9 Q. All right. How many notebooks did you

    10 actually turn over to the Prosecution, apart from that

    11 one?

    12 A. I believe that this was one notebook.

    13 Q. Only one notebook is what you turned over to

    14 Mr. Gerns, I take it?

    15 A. Yes, as far as I can recall, only one.

    16 Q. All right. And let me just put one

    17 proposition to you, sir, and ask you to agree, "Yes" or

    18 "No." The name "Dario Kordic" does not appear in the

    19 hundreds of pages of those notes that you took

    20 contemporaneously, anywhere, does it?

    21 A. I would need to look, but probably there's no

    22 mention of it.

    23 Q. All right. Now, just a few general

    24 questions, if I may, before I turn to more specific

    25 matters, and let me just say that I hope to be

  67. 1 completed with these questions, with your co-operation,

    2 sir, in about 45 minutes, if possible. And since I

    3 tend to speak rather quickly, please, if you would,

    4 just wait to hear the translation, and then answer my

    5 question, and we'll get along just fine, I think.

    6 You would agree, sir, that the years 1992 and

    7 1993 were a time of complete political and military

    8 chaos in your municipality, would you not?

    9 A. '93, yes. '92, at least the first half, I

    10 don't think you could quite call it chaos, but the

    11 second half, yes, of course.

    12 Q. You would agree with me that there was a

    13 really remarkable surge in criminal activity in the

    14 second half of 1992 and throughout 1993, would you not?

    15 A. Absolutely not. There were sabotages and

    16 destruction of Bosniak structures, if you will, but

    17 there was no chaos there.

    18 Q. All right. Let me see if I understand your

    19 position, sir. As I understand it, you were the

    20 president of the SDA in Vitez?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. You became a member of the first crisis staff

    23 that was established in Vitez?

    24 Yes?

    25 A. Yes.

  68. 1 Q. You became a member of the war presidency

    2 established in Vitez, I believe, in January of 1993?

    3 A. No.

    4 Q. You did not? You organised the coordination

    5 committee for the protection of Muslims, did you not?

    6 A. The coordination committee for the protection

    7 of interests of Muslims, yes, but after -- this was

    8 after a particular processes there, yes.

    9 Q. You were also the commander of the civilian

    10 defence force after April the 16th of 1993 until the

    11 end of the hostilities that you described in your

    12 direct examination? "Yes" or "No"?

    13 A. Yes, only at the Stari Vitez level, not for

    14 the entire municipality. Only for Stari Vitez, the Old

    15 Vitez.

    16 Q. You were not in fact the commander of the

    17 civilian police, were you?

    18 A. No.

    19 Q. And as I understand your testimony, you now

    20 live in Zenica; right?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. And during the war, that was the headquarters

    23 of the 3rd Corps of the ABiH?

    24 A. Yes, that's where the headquarters was.

    25 Q. In fact, it was the headquarters of General

  69. 1 Hadzihasanovic was it not?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 Q. Now, you gave some cursory testimony about

    4 questions that Mr. Kordic asked you as a student many,

    5 many years ago; do you remember that?

    6 A. As a pupil, and there were some questions on

    7 history. I cannot recall specifically what.

    8 Q. All right. Now, let me just turn, if I may,

    9 to your knowledge of the military structure of the

    10 HVO. Two and a half years ago, when you gave certain

    11 corrections and amendments to the investigators of this

    12 Tribunal, in your January 1997 statement, you told

    13 them -- and I believe that you've testified to this

    14 effect today -- that you were not very familiar with

    15 the military structure of the HVO, and you would agree

    16 with that, would you not?

    17 A. Yes, approximately so.

    18 Q. But you knew Colonel Tihomir Blaskic and

    19 Colonel Filip Filipovic were the established military

    20 authorities in Vitez, did you not?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. And both of these gentlemen were former JNA

    23 officers, weren't they?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. And you told the investigators that

  70. 1 Mr. Cerkez was some sort of commander in the HVO in

    2 Vitez in some capacity, but you didn't really know in

    3 what capacity; right?

    4 A. That he was something like a commander

    5 probably of a brigade at the Vitez level. This is what

    6 I knew, approximately.

    7 Q. All right, sir. But you stressed to the

    8 investigators that this was just, to use your word,

    9 your impression; right?

    10 A. Yes, yes. This is also how he acted while

    11 giving the ultimatum.

    12 Q. Right. You could not be sure what the

    13 military structure of the HVO was and where Mr. Cerkez

    14 fit into that, actually, could you?

    15 A. No. I think that military persons would be

    16 more competent to talk about this.

    17 Q. Do you know anything about Brigadier General

    18 Milivoj Petkovic?

    19 A. No. I have heard of him, but I don't know

    20 any details about him.

    21 Q. Do you know who the president of the HVO in

    22 all of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina was in the

    23 second half of 1992 and 1993?

    24 A. As far as I know, at the level of Bosnia and

    25 Herzegovina, Dzjena Kaprilic was the head of

  71. 1 the HVO, and the president of the presidency of

    2 Herceg-Bosna was Mate Boban. Then there were some

    3 changes, but I just don't know enough about the

    4 structures to be able to tell you what changes occurred

    5 there.

    6 Q. All right. Let's pass on to the next

    7 subject, which is Mr. Kordic and the oath-taking

    8 ceremony that you described in Vitez Stadium sometime

    9 in the summer or towards the end of 1992.

    10 In your July the 13th statement, on page 7,

    11 you actually said that this oath-taking ceremony

    12 supposedly occurred at the end of 1992. Do you recall

    13 whether it was in the summer of 1992 or the end of 1992

    14 or has the lapse of seven years dimmed your memory in

    15 that regard?

    16 A. I believe that it was most probably August.

    17 I know it was very warm. I know that a soldier

    18 collapsed. He needed some medical assistance, and then

    19 I remember us commenting it was probably due to heat.

    20 So it could have been August or July. Sometimes even

    21 September can be pretty hot. I'm not sure, but I know

    22 that it was quite warm.

    23 Q. Now, this oath-taking ceremony actually

    24 followed a similar oath-taking ceremony for the members

    25 of the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina, didn't it? It

  72. 1 had been held some time earlier?

    2 A. Yes, similar, except here we had a larger

    3 parade, that is, at the municipality level, and there

    4 was oath-taking, and the oath taken by these soldiers

    5 was that they would be fighting for Herceg-Bosna rather

    6 than Bosnia and Herzegovina, so that was the

    7 difference.

    8 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you, but my question

    9 was an extremely simple question. The oath-taking

    10 ceremony that you described followed a similar

    11 oath-taking ceremony for the members of the army of

    12 Bosnia and Herzegovina, didn't it?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Thank you. You said that --

    15 A. The BH army oath taking never took place at

    16 the stadium.

    17 Q. You say that Mr. Kordic, to the best of your

    18 recollection, arrived at the oath-taking ceremony in

    19 the Stadium Vitez about five to six minutes before it

    20 closed. Do you remember that?

    21 (redacted)

    22 (redacted)

    23 (redacted)

    24 (redacted)

    25 [redacted]

  73. 1 (redacted)

    2 (redacted)

    3 (redacted)

    4 (redacted)

    5 (redacted)

    6 Q. In fact, he was on the crisis staff with you,

    7 was he not?

    8 A. He was not on the crisis staff.

    9 Q. Well, he was a prominent Muslim politician in

    10 your municipality, right, and you knew him well?

    11 A. I knew him.

    12 Q. All right. You said that you can't quote

    13 verbatim what Mr. Kordic supposedly said seven years

    14 ago. Do you admit to the possibility that actually

    15 Mr. Kordic said absolutely nothing about the Muslims in

    16 that speech there?

    17 A. I don't know if you have a tape or not, but

    18 it is quite true and evident that he levelled certain

    19 threats against the Bosniak people in that region, and

    20 he even insisted that Alija Izetbegovic convince his

    21 own people that this was historical Croat territory.

    22 Now, that is true.

    23 Q. (redacted)


    25 (redacted)

  74. 1 (redacted).


    3 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

    4 MR. NICE: Can we just quickly go into

    5 private session, please?

    6 THE REGISTRAR: Just one moment, please.

    7 Yes.

    8 (Private session)

    9 (redacted)

    10 (redacted)

    11 (redacted)

    12 (redacted)

    13 (redacted)

    14 (redacted)

    15 (Open session)

    16 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked

    17 D35/1.

    18 MR. SAYERS: Your Honour, I'll need to amend

    19 this in order to reflect the pseudonym instead of the

    20 actual name for the document on the front, and with the

    21 Trial Chamber's permission, I'll submit a replacement

    22 page tomorrow.

    23 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

    24 MR. SAYERS:

    25 Q. I'm referring you specifically to page 6500

  75. 1 of the testimony of this witness, where the witness

    2 says that Mr. Kordic, during this speech, "... spoke of

    3 Vitez as a traditionally and historically Croatian

    4 territory, and he said that they had to defend that

    5 territory. Unfortunately, he did not mention the

    6 Muslims in Vitez. He never mentioned the Muslim

    7 people. He, what is more indirectly, was speaking

    8 against the Muslims."

    9 Do you agree or disagree with that statement,

    10 in fact?

    11 A. I recall that the speech was filled with

    12 threats, that he had addressed himself to President

    13 Izetbegovic, that the speech contained quite a few

    14 threats to the Muslim people, and I don't know about

    15 the interpretations. They can be, you know, different

    16 ones, but that is the essence. This is how I

    17 understood it.

    18 He did address himself to President

    19 Izetbegovic. He did mention a Croatian historic

    20 territory. He said that this would be Croatian

    21 territory, and he expressed some threats too.

    22 Q. All right, sir. Now, you say that you met

    23 Mr. Kordic at several meetings in 1992; is that

    24 correct?

    25 A. Yes. These were several meetings which were

  76. 1 attended by representatives from Travnik, Novi Travnik,

    2 Busovaca and Vitez, and certain issues were tabled

    3 there, trying to be resolved, the matters of police

    4 markings and insignia and other things, but nothing was

    5 able to be solved.

    6 Q. Well, Mr. Kordic actually attended these

    7 meetings as the president of the HDZ for the Busovaca

    8 municipality, did he not?

    9 A. Yes. For instance, I remember his attending

    10 one of these meetings in Busovaca. Whether he attended

    11 all of them, I'm not absolutely sure.

    12 Q. Now, you say that you saw Mr. Kordic on

    13 several occasions wearing camouflage clothes, clothing,

    14 or a camouflage uniform?

    15 A. Not several times, but I saw him, for

    16 instance, at that parade in Vitez and then when this

    17 incident happened with multiple rocket launchers in

    18 Novi Travnik, and that is about it. I did not see him

    19 many times.

    20 Q. You never saw him wearing any rank insignia,

    21 did you?

    22 A. He may have had some rank insignia, but I did

    23 not see it because I did not meet him very often.

    24 Q. But when you saw him on the TV, you always

    25 saw him carrying a rosary and a crucifix, did you not?

  77. 1 A. Yes. That was rather unusual for the

    2 conditions at the time, and it left an imprint in my

    3 mind.

    4 Q. All right. Let me turn to the next subject,

    5 the blockade at Ahmici.

    6 At the point where the roadblock was actually

    7 set up on October the 19th, 1992, this was just below

    8 the village of Ahmici; is that correct?

    9 A. It was in the village of Ahmici.

    10 Q. It was on the main supply route between Vitez

    11 and the towns to the west and towns to the east such as

    12 Zenica and Busovaca; right?

    13 A. Yes, on the road going from Lasva in the

    14 direction of Travnik.

    15 Q. You've previously testified in the Blaskic

    16 case in January of 1998 that this was, to use your

    17 words, a strategically-important point; correct?

    18 A. A strategically-important point for the HVO,

    19 in the sense that that was the only position where it

    20 could have been possible to enter -- to break the

    21 communication line which was under the control of the

    22 HVO.

    23 Q. Well, you actually said that it was only at

    24 this point that the HVO troops could be halted on the

    25 road from Busovaca to Vitez; isn't that right?

  78. 1 A. For the attack on the BH army in Novi

    2 Travnik.

    3 Q. Well, you do agree that you told the Court,

    4 page 5733 that, "It was a strategically-important

    5 point, and only at this point was there any danger that

    6 it could be cut off and that the HVO may not be able to

    7 use it for military purposes," right, you remember

    8 saying that?

    9 A. Yes, because in Ahmici, on the road, in

    10 addition to Croats there were quite a number of

    11 Bosniaks living there.

    12 Q. My only question was whether you said that

    13 and you agree with that, that that was your testimony

    14 in the Blaskic case about a year and a quarter ago. It

    15 was, wasn't it?

    16 A. That was a place where the army could have

    17 put up a barricade. Let me put it this way: The

    18 access to the road was there.

    19 Q. I'd like to stop you there. I'm sorry to do

    20 it. I don't mean to be impolite, but I'm happy to show

    21 you your testimony in the Blaskic case in January of

    22 1998.

    23 You do agree that that was your testimony,

    24 don't you?

    25 JUDGE MAY: Well, I think we've been around

  79. 1 this point, Mr. Sayers. You've made the point.

    2 MR. SAYERS: Your Honour, I think so. I'll

    3 move on.

    4 Q. Now, it's true also that General

    5 Hadzihasanovic, the commander of the 3rd Corps in

    6 Zenica, ordered that blockade to be set up at that

    7 strategically important point; isn't that right?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. (Obscured by interpretation) was to take

    10 control of the road communications, wasn't it?

    11 A. No. The aim was to halt the passage of HVO

    12 units from Busovaca, Fojnica, and Kiseljak going to

    13 Novi Travnik.

    14 Q. Once again, on page 5733, your testimony in

    15 Blaskic, quote: "So this was one of the motives, to

    16 take control of this road communications, and this

    17 would be the purely military aspect of it." Did you

    18 say that in the Blaskic case, one and a quarter years

    19 ago, sir, under oath?

    20 A. No, no, please don't do that. I do not

    21 agree, absolutely not. The order was to put up the

    22 barricade, to halt -- to prevent the passage of units

    23 to Novi Travnik and thereby to prevent an HVO attack on

    24 the army at Novi Travnik. It was not a question of

    25 controlling the communication.

  80. 1 MR. SAYERS: With the Trial Chamber's

    2 permission, I'm more than happy to make copies of this

    3 page and move on to the next point, but that was the

    4 testimony in Blaskic.

    5 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

    6 MR. SAYERS: Thank you.

    7 Q. Now, you would agree with me, therefore, sir,

    8 that the HVO troop convoy moving along the road on

    9 October the 19th encountered a blocked road and armed

    10 people pointing guns at them to impede their progress

    11 to points west; correct?

    12 A. Yes, their aim was to impede the passage of

    13 HVO soldiers, but not to shoot at them, but just to

    14 prevent them from passing.

    15 May I please make a remark? Please don't try

    16 to force me to confirm your own inferences which

    17 absolutely have no grounds and do not correspond to

    18 reality. This was not a question of controlling

    19 communications or territory, but simply to try and stop

    20 the passage of large units so that the conflict in Novi

    21 Travnik could be localised and halted.

    22 Q. Yes, and to stop the passage of those units

    23 by force of arms; correct?

    24 JUDGE MAY: Well, I think, Mr. Sayers, we've

    25 been through this probably enough. This witness's

  81. 1 evidence had to do with a conversation at the

    2 headquarters.

    3 MR. SAYERS: Right. And I am going to turn

    4 to that subject right now, Your Honour.

    5 Q. You had a conversation with Mr. Kaknjo,

    6 Mr. Santic, and Mr. Cerkez at the ABiH headquarters in

    7 Vitez on April the 18th -- I'm sorry, on October the

    8 18th or 19th; you couldn't remember which. Right?

    9 A. Probably in the night of the 19th.

    10 Q. All right. And this conversation occurred

    11 fairly late at night, didn't it?

    12 A. Yes.

    13 Q. There's no mention of this incident anywhere

    14 in the contemporaneous notes that you have before you,

    15 is there, sir?

    16 A. Possibly not, because I couldn't make notes

    17 every time.

    18 Q. And it was actually Mr. Kaknjo who made the

    19 telephone call to a Novi Travnik number; is that

    20 correct?

    21 A. Yes. Yes, that is correct.

    22 Q. All right. And Mr. Kaknjo was also a leading

    23 political figure in Vitez; in fact, he was the

    24 president of the executive board after the 1990

    25 elections, one of the top Muslim politicians in Vitez.

  82. 1 Right?

    2 A. A Bosniak politician, yes. And please don't

    3 use that term. This is a membership of a faith, of a

    4 faith, so please be precise in the expressions you use.

    5 Q. Did you know that an offer had been made to

    6 Mr. Kaknjo to become the deputy president of the HVO in

    7 Vitez, sir?

    8 A. I was not familiar with that detail. It is

    9 the first time that I hear of it.

    10 Q. How many people were in the room with

    11 Mr. Kordic in Novi Travnik? Do you have any idea?

    12 A. It was a meeting in the building of the

    13 municipal assembly of Novi Travnik. Possibly there

    14 were some 15 people there. In any event, there was

    15 quite a number.

    16 The discussion went on for some time, and the

    17 meeting ended by satisfying the request of Dario

    18 Kordic. I can even say that there were some funny

    19 things, because the director warned Dario Kordic that

    20 not any driver could come in and drive those trucks,

    21 because they require special handling, and any error

    22 could be serious. Then they looked for drivers who

    23 were qualified. But in any event, what he demanded had

    24 to be met.

    25 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, are you mixing up two separate

  83. 1 meetings, one that occurred at the Bratstvo facility in

    2 the spring of 1992 and the October 1992 conversation

    3 about which I'm asking some questions of you right

    4 now?

    5 A. I'm referring to a meeting held in 1992. I'm

    6 not aware of any meeting in Bratstvo, but Dario Kordic

    7 brought some 100 soldiers outside the gates of Bratstvo

    8 trying to enter. And since there was resistance

    9 against that, a meeting was organised in the building

    10 of the municipal assembly of Novi Travnik late at

    11 night.

    12 Q. I'm not asking you any questions whatsoever

    13 about the Bratstvo, spring 1992, Novi Travnik affair.

    14 You've given your testimony on that; I have no

    15 questions to ask you about that. What I'm asking you

    16 to focus on, sir, is the telephone conversation that

    17 you supposedly had with Mr. Kordic, or which you did

    18 have with Mr. Kordic, in October of 1992 -- to be more

    19 accurate, that Mr. Fuad Kaknjo had with Mr. Kordic.

    20 How long did this telephone conversation

    21 last, sir?

    22 A. I would like to ask you to be kind enough not

    23 to confuse these two meetings, the talk in Vitez and

    24 the talk with Dario Kordic during the HVO attack on

    25 Novi Travnik and the meeting in Novi Travnik when Dario

  84. 1 Kordic was present and asked for a multiple rocket

    2 launcher. So it is you who is confusing the two

    3 meetings. If you're talking about the meeting --

    4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kajmovic, we are not going to

    5 get on like this. Counsel is here, and he is entitled

    6 to ask his questions. If we indulge in argument, we

    7 shall all be here a very long time.

    8 Mr. Sayers, I don't think there is much point

    9 going on with this.

    10 MR. SAYERS: I'm inclined to agree with you,

    11 Your Honour, but this was a point that the Prosecution

    12 sort of concentrated on somewhat. If I might just ask

    13 a few questions about the circumstances?

    14 JUDGE MAY: Put, by all means, your account

    15 of what happened on the telephone, if you want. In

    16 fact, we would like to know what it is that the Defence

    17 say about that.

    18 MR. SAYERS: The Defence position is this,

    19 Your Honour -- I'm glad that you asked. There was such

    20 a conversation; Mr. Fuad Kaknjo, at the request of

    21 Mr. -- actually, at his own instance, made a call to

    22 Dario Kordic in Novi Travnik. I believe it was October

    23 the 19th, 1992. Combat activities had been initiated

    24 in that town by a fellow by the name of commander Refik

    25 Lendo, L-E-N-D-O, and Mr. Kordic said that he was not

  85. 1 inclined to talk to Mr. Kaknjo unless Mr. Refik Lendo

    2 turned himself over to the HVO forces.

    3 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Mr. Sayers,

    4 perhaps we can hear the witness confirm this, after

    5 all, because this was referred to in the

    6 examination-in-chief this morning. There was a meeting

    7 held after the affair with Bratstvo, the Bratstvo

    8 factory, arms factory, and then after the events linked

    9 to the barricades and Novi Travnik, the witness told us

    10 that they went to telephone Dario Kordic. Perhaps we

    11 could ask him whether he was a member of this

    12 delegation, and when was this in 1992 when this

    13 delegation called Dario Kordic? At least we will know

    14 exactly where we are. Otherwise, we seem to be a

    15 little confused.

    16 MR. SAYERS: I think that's a good

    17 suggestion, Your Honour, and I'll try to clear that up

    18 with some questions.

    19 Q. Do I understand your testimony to be, sir,

    20 that on the evening of either October the 18th or

    21 October the 19th, 1992, you were in the military

    22 headquarters of the ABiH in Vitez along with Mr. Fuad

    23 Kaknjo?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. And at that time, you received a visit from

  86. 1 Mr. Santic and Mr. Cerkez; correct?

    2 A. Yes. Yes.

    3 Q. Mr. Santic was the president of the HVO in

    4 Vitez; correct?

    5 A. The HVO government in Vitez, and he was still

    6 formally the town mayor of Vitez municipality.

    7 Q. And these two gentlemen actually came to see

    8 Mr. Kaknjo, and you just happened to be there when they

    9 arrived; correct?

    10 A. They came to see Sefkjia Dzidic, the

    11 commander of the Territorial Defence, and we were in

    12 the room where the commander was.

    13 Q. And as I understand it, here is what

    14 happened. Mr. Kaknjo offered to place a call to Dario

    15 Kordic in Novi Travnik where hostilities, where

    16 fighting was going on; correct?

    17 A. No. May I tell you what actually happened?

    18 Q. Well --

    19 JUDGE MAY: Let counsel put his account, and

    20 then you can put yours, Mr. Kajmovic.

    21 MR. SAYERS:

    22 Q. Have you ever spoken to Fuad Kaknjo about

    23 this particular event?

    24 A. You asked me a question.

    25 Q. Let me ask you to answer this question: Have

  87. 1 you ever spoken to Fuad Kaknjo about what happened that

    2 night?

    3 A. I really have to respond. Certain facts are

    4 being skipped over, and I'm asked to give you others.

    5 I must tell you that Mario Cerkez and Ivica Santic came

    6 with the request for the BH army to remove the

    7 barricade. We said we wouldn't do that until you stop

    8 the attack on Novi Travnik. Ivica Santic answered, "I

    9 do not have the authority to take such decisions, but I

    10 can give you a telephone number to call up Kordic, who

    11 is in Novi Travnik. He's the only one who can make

    12 such a decision."

    13 And that is the substance of the matter.

    14 Obviously the Defence is avoiding that and is skipping

    15 over it and wants to know whether I spoke to Kaknjo

    16 about this. I did speak to Fuad Kaknjo about many

    17 things, including this. There is no dispute over that.

    18 MR. SAYERS: Well, let me just, if I may,

    19 distribute to the Trial Chamber that Mr. Kaknjo's

    20 account of what went on -- and I'd just like to ask the

    21 witness whether he agrees or disagrees with that, which

    22 I think is necessary, since we're dealing with memory

    23 over a long period of time, if I may. It's pages 199

    24 to 201 of Mr. Kaknjo's testimony, February 19th, 1999,

    25 in the Aleksovski case.

  88. 1 JUDGE MAY: You can put that, Mr. Sayers, and

    2 then perhaps we can move on.

    3 MR. SAYERS: Yes, Your Honour.

    4 THE REGISTRAR: The document is marked

    5 D36/1.

    6 MR. SAYERS:

    7 Q. Now, Mr. Kajmovic, here's what Mr. Kaknjo had

    8 to say regarding this. He was asked what he suggested

    9 after a meeting with Mr. Santic and Mr. Cerkez, and his

    10 answer was,

    11 A. "I suggested -- I proposed that

    12 the president of the

    13 municipality ..."

    14 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Which page,

    15 please?

    16 MR. SAYERS: Page 199, Your Honour, lines 14

    17 and 15.

    18 Actually, could you put it on the ELMO for

    19 the translators? Thank you.

    20 Q. Over on the next page:

    21 "... go to Vitez and try to calm

    22 down the situation.

    23 Q. This is that you and Ivica Santic

    24 go over, is that right?

    25 A. In fact, we did not go. That was

  89. 1 just an attempt.

    2 Q. That was your suggestion?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. What did he say to you when you

    5 suggested that proposal?

    6 A. That he talked and that it did not

    7 happen, so that I could just try to

    8 talk to them myself.

    9 Q. Did he suggest that you should

    10 telephone somebody?

    11 -- and this is on page 200 --

    12 A. Yes, he told me that and he gave me

    13 the phone number.

    14 Q. Did he suggest who you should speak

    15 to?

    16 I think there's a typographical error there.

    17 A. With Kordic.

    18 Q. Is that Dario Kordic?

    19 A. Yes

    20 Q. What position did Dario Kordic hold

    21 at that time?

    22 A. I think it was the president of the

    23 HDZ.

    24 Q. Did you subsequently speak to Dario

    25 Kordic?

  90. 1 A. Yes, I did talk to him.

    2 Q. What did you say to him?

    3 A. I wanted that Ivica Santic and I

    4 mediate so that we could calm

    5 things down.

    6 Q. What did he say to you?

    7 A. If the commander of the Territorial

    8 Defence surrendered -- the army

    9 commander in Novi Travnik, and if

    10 he surrendered the arms, then we

    11 could talk.

    12 Q. What army was this that he was

    13 referring to?

    14 A. The army of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

    15 that was its name, the Territorial

    16 Defence at that time."

    17 Does that refresh your recollection of this

    18 telephone conversation that you may have overheard

    19 seven years ago, sir?

    20 A. Yes. Yes.

    21 Q. Mr. Kaknjo actually depicted events

    22 accurately, didn't he?

    23 A. More or less accurately, yes.

    24 Q. All right.

    25 A. The only thing is that he didn't add the

  91. 1 curse that was heard as Kordic was approaching the

    2 telephone.

    3 Q. Was this a speakerphone that you were using,

    4 or just a regular hand-held telephone?

    5 A. In the receiver, Kaknjo was speaking, and I

    6 was next to him, and I could hear the conversation.

    7 Q. Was it a speakerphone or a hand-held

    8 telephone, sir?

    9 A. No, no, it was a hand-held telephone, the

    10 receiver.

    11 Q. All right. Now, did it have a rotary dial,

    12 or push-buttons, the more modern type?

    13 A. It was a telephone without any loudspeakers,

    14 but we heard it, nevertheless, because we were right

    15 next to one another.

    16 Q. But Mr. Kaknjo was actually doing the

    17 talking, not you. Isn't that right?

    18 A. Yes, yes.

    19 Q. You didn't say a word on the telephone, did

    20 you?

    21 A. No.

    22 Q. So you were, as I understand it, trying to

    23 listen in while Mr. Kaknjo was holding the speaker to

    24 his ear and the microphone to his mouth; right?

    25 A. Yes, quite.

  92. 1 Q. And you would agree with me, sir, would you

    2 not, that he was in a better position to hear what was

    3 being said than you were?

    4 A. He was in a better position, but

    5 nevertheless, I heard it all too.

    6 Q. You never made any notes of that conversation

    7 seven years ago, did you?

    8 A. No. At the time this happened, these were

    9 very hard times; and anyway, an hour or an hour and a

    10 half later, we could have all been killed there. So it

    11 wasn't really logical to expect us to make any notes.

    12 Q. Well, you never made any notes about that

    13 conversation, did you?

    14 A. No. I didn't need to.

    15 Q. So what you've recounted to the Trial Chamber

    16 today is your memory --

    17 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Sayers, I think we can move

    18 on. You've made the point.

    19 MR. SAYERS: Yes, Your Honour.

    20 Q. Now, as I understand it, there was actually

    21 fighting that broke out at Ahmici on April the 19th and

    22 20th of 1992, and one member of the armed forces on

    23 either side was killed in that fighting, sir; is that

    24 correct?

    25 A. Possibly.

  93. 1 Q. Turning to your testimony, brief though it

    2 was, on the attacks on Muslim businesses at the end of

    3 1992, it's correct, is it not, that those attacks

    4 occurred over a relatively short period of time?

    5 A. In a relatively short period of time.

    6 Q. But they occurred at the end of 1992, did

    7 they not?

    8 A. Somewhere towards the end of '92, yes.

    9 Q. But there were no incidents in Stari Vitez,

    10 where most of the Muslim population lived; isn't that

    11 correct?

    12 A. There were some incidents, but of a smaller

    13 scale, because it was impossible to blow up Bosniak

    14 property there.

    15 Q. All right. In your January the 27th, 1997,

    16 statement, sir, you made this statement, did you not?

    17 Quote: "There were no such incidents in the Old Vitez,

    18 which was predominantly Muslim in its population."

    19 A. There was no destruction of property, no

    20 incidents of that kind, but the holding of vehicles now

    21 and then and the throwing of grenades. But there was

    22 no destruction on the scale that we saw in the other

    23 part of the town because it was impossible to carry out

    24 such an operation in the old part of the city as it was

    25 in the new part.

  94. 1 Q. You would concede that around this period of

    2 time throughout 1992 and 1993, it was relatively easy

    3 for people to gain possession of plastic explosives,

    4 would you not?

    5 A. For the HVO, there was no problem, as they

    6 controlled the factories, the Princip factory.

    7 Q. You said in your January the 27th, 1997

    8 statement, sir, that, "There was a large

    9 explosive-producing factory in Vitez, and it was easy

    10 for people to get plastic explosives," didn't you?

    11 A. Yes. This was a factory that was under the

    12 complete control of the HVO.

    13 Q. Well, most of the incidents that you

    14 described actually coincided with the arrival of these

    15 outsiders from either Eastern Herzegovina or Croatian,

    16 that which you previously testified; isn't that right?

    17 A. Yes. Roughly, there was a group up there.

    18 Q. All right. Let me turn to April the 15th,

    19 which you have covered, and April the 14th.

    20 On April the 14th, do you remember hearing

    21 any information about four HVO officers being kidnapped

    22 just outside of Novi Travnik by the 7th Muslim Brigade

    23 elements?

    24 A. I was not aware of that at the time. I

    25 didn't know about it at the time.

  95. 1 Q. Did you know, on April the 15th, that a

    2 military HVO commander, I believe he was the commander

    3 of the Jure Francetic Brigade, Zivko Totic, was

    4 kidnapped by the 7th Muslim Brigade in the city of

    5 Zenica?

    6 A. No, I didn't know about that.

    7 Q. You didn't know that Mr. Totic's bodyguards

    8 were killed in a hail of gunfire on that day in Zenica?

    9 A. I didn't. How could I know, when this was in

    10 another municipality?

    11 Q. You didn't see any TV broadcasts recording

    12 that assassination and kidnapping?

    13 A. No. I didn't know about that.

    14 Q. Now, one day before the outbreak of fighting

    15 in Vitez, and that is on the evening of April the 15th,

    16 1993, you were actually in the village of Kruscica; is

    17 that right?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. That is about, and maybe I've got my

    20 distances wrong here, but about one kilometre directly

    21 south of the town of Vitez?

    22 A. Yes, thereabouts; two kilometres perhaps.

    23 Q. All right. That was the local Territorial

    24 Defence headquarters; correct?

    25 A. Yes, it was indeed a headquarters of the

  96. 1 army.

    2 Q. You actually had a hand-held radio in your

    3 possession that evening, did you not?

    4 A. No, we did not. The headquarters, there was

    5 one there.

    6 Q. All right. Over the hand-held radio, you

    7 heard that there was fighting going on in Busovaca at

    8 about 5.00 p.m. on April the 15th, 1993, didn't you?

    9 A. Yes. As we were sitting in that room, we

    10 were informed by one of the commanders that he was

    11 receiving the news that the HVO was attacking Busovaca,

    12 or rather the Bosniak population, with all their

    13 forces.

    14 Q. At page 6 of your statement in July of 1995,

    15 you said that, "I heard on my hand-held radio,"

    16 something. Are you saying that it wasn't your radio

    17 but it was really the radio that belonged to the

    18 military facility in Kruscica?

    19 A. Yes. It was a radio -- rather a radio

    20 station which belonged to the military, and if it says

    21 as you say it does, then it's wrong.

    22 Q. Very well. Now, just moving very briefly

    23 through the details of the fighting here, you say that

    24 about 100 HVO troops were involved in the fighting in

    25 Vitez and Stari Vitez during the period April the 16th

  97. 1 to April the 19th, 1993; right?

    2 A. The question was how many HVO soldiers were

    3 attacking Old Vitez, but I can't say that. I presume

    4 that HVO commanders would know that. But we could say

    5 that there were 100 men participating in the attack.

    6 Q. Yes. In fact on page 3 of your statement two

    7 years ago, you actually said that about 100 HVO

    8 soldiers were attacking Vitez and Stari Vitez, didn't

    9 you?

    10 A. Well, yes, thereabouts. I think so. I guess

    11 so. It is impossible to obtain accurate information.

    12 Q. Very well. Against these 100 or so HVO

    13 soldiers, there were about 150 Muslim soldiers, weren't

    14 there?

    15 A. No.

    16 Q. Well, let me just draw your attention to

    17 page 3 of your statement a couple of years ago to the

    18 Prosecutor. "The approximate number of soldiers who

    19 were resisting the HVO attack in Stari Vitez was

    20 approximately 150."

    21 A. Yes, but a while ago you said "in the

    22 counterattack", so I know what I'm talking about. This

    23 was not a counterattack, it was defence. They were

    24 only defending themselves. They did not engage in any

    25 attack.

  98. 1 Q. But you agree with me 100 HVO soldiers on one

    2 side, 150 Muslim soldiers on the other?

    3 A. Yes. At first, in the early stage in that

    4 part where I was on the line, there were about 20 men,

    5 mostly members of the civilian police, and only later,

    6 that is, in the days that followed, on the second,

    7 third and fourth day, more men joined in the defence of

    8 Stari Vitez. But at the early stage when the Croat

    9 soldiers set on fire some parts of Stari Vitez or Old

    10 Vitez, there were not that many. But later on, yes,

    11 there may have been 150, perhaps a little more.

    12 Q. Well, according to your statement, the front

    13 lines in Vitez were pretty much established on April

    14 the 16th to April the 19th, 1993, and remained

    15 virtually unchanged for the next ten months; isn't that

    16 right?

    17 A. Yes. After the HVO attack, the front line

    18 was established, and, yes, true, it did not change

    19 until the end of the war.

    20 Q. You would agree with me that your troops were

    21 told to fire at the HVO with every available weapon,

    22 weren't they?

    23 A. No.

    24 Q. Well, your troops fought courageously, did

    25 they not?

  99. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. They fought as hard as they possibly could,

    3 didn't they, sir?

    4 A. Yes, and they had orders not to fire a single

    5 bullet unless they were attacked by the HVO, and they

    6 could do it only in case the HVO attacked.

    7 Q. Well, the HVO did advance on April the 16th,

    8 and you did fire bullets at the HVO and killed a lot of

    9 them, didn't you?

    10 A. They were not advancing, they were attacking,

    11 and that is when the conflict occurred.

    12 Q. But you would agree with me that you killed a

    13 lot of HVO troops between April the 16th and April the

    14 19th? Your troops, that is.

    15 A. No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't agree with you.

    16 I do not think there were all that many. Naturally, it

    17 is a pity when a single man dies, but I don't think

    18 there were many of them, and it's relative too.

    19 Q. Well, the president of the war presidency was

    20 Dr. Mujezinovic, I believe, the Muslim war presidency,

    21 correct, or the Bosniak war presidency?

    22 A. Yes.

    23 Q. Do you know that he had actually traded over

    24 100 HVO wounded soldiers on the 19th of April, 1993,

    25 sir?

  100. 1 A. Possibly.

    2 Q. In fact, you had your own rifle on April the

    3 16th, didn't you?

    4 A. No.

    5 Q. Let me just read to you a statement that you

    6 made on page 2 of your January the 27th, 1997

    7 statement. "I didn't have any weapons initially, but

    8 later I got a rifle, as the owner of the rifle had

    9 probably been hit."

    10 So you did have a rifle at some point during

    11 these hostilities, didn't you, sir?

    12 A. Later on, yes, I was issued a rifle and it

    13 wasn't hidden. In all likelihood, a member of the

    14 Armija got killed, and that is when I got a rifle. So

    15 at the outset, I didn't have a rifle because there

    16 weren't any around, and then subsequently, after a

    17 casualty in the army of B and H, then I could be given

    18 a rifle.

    19 Q. Now, after April the 19th of 1993, you would

    20 agree with me that military combat operations were

    21 going on in Vitez until the Washington Agreement was

    22 actually signed sometime in early 1994; isn't that

    23 true?

    24 A. Until 12.00 on the 25th of February, 1994.

    25 Q. What you had was military forces on both

  101. 1 sides fighting each other, didn't you, sir; HVO on one

    2 side and ABiH on the other?

    3 A. In Vitez specifically, the BH army was

    4 defending itself against the attack of the HVO. On

    5 other parts of the front line across the municipality,

    6 you will have to ask military experts or somebody else

    7 and they will be able to tell you more about that. I

    8 don't really know much about these events, and I'm

    9 rather reluctant to talk about things that I do not

    10 know enough about.

    11 Q. All right. Now, you talked about members of

    12 the civilian population in Stari Vitez being evacuated

    13 with the help of the United Nations protection forces.

    14 Do you remember that?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. The headquarters of UNPROFOR was, what, a

    17 half a kilometre or so from the combat zone?

    18 A. Perhaps slightly over that.

    19 Q. Now, during the war a Croat house was burned

    20 down because shots were being fired from it at your

    21 soldiers; isn't that correct?

    22 A. Yes. In my statement, I did mention a detail

    23 of that nature.

    24 Q. All right. Just to cover very briefly the

    25 two flare-ups of fighting that Mr. Nice covered with

  102. 1 you in short order, the first occurred on July the 18th

    2 of 1993; right?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. I think that you said that absolutely no

    5 Muslim soldiers were killed but many HVO soldiers were

    6 killed. Is that right?

    7 A. Wounded, yes, and a certain number of HVO

    8 members were killed. Yes, you wanted me to say "a

    9 large number", and I said that it was a relative --

    10 Q. Well, in your statement two years ago, you

    11 told the Prosecutor's representatives, "The HVO lost

    12 many soldiers, while we did not lose a single soldier."

    13 So I'm actually just using your words, sir. You would

    14 agree with what you wrote two years ago?

    15 A. Yes, yes. It will be, as far as I know,

    16 about 12.

    17 Q. Just before the outbreak of hostilities in

    18 the early part of 1993, January, did you ever hear

    19 about massacres of Croat civilians in the villages of

    20 Dusina, Nezerovici and Lasva?

    21 A. You keep pressing military matters on me, and

    22 I'm really not familiar with that, and in particular

    23 I'm not conversant with events in other

    24 municipalities. Whether this is true or not, I really

    25 do not know, and you should seek the answer from

  103. 1 somebody else who is more knowledgeable about these

    2 matters.

    3 Q. I wasn't actually seeking a military opinion

    4 from you. I was just asking, sir, whether you, as a

    5 member of your community --

    6 A. Well, I did not hear about that.

    7 Q. Did you ever hear that the HVO commander in

    8 those villages, Commander Zvonko, had been shot 12

    9 times in the face and arms with automatic weapons and

    10 had his heart cut out of his body by elements of the

    11 7th Muslim Brigade?

    12 A. No, I don't know about that.

    13 Q. Did you ever hear about the massacre of Croat

    14 civilians at the village of --

    15 JUDGE MAY: Well, the witness has dealt with

    16 these matters. He said he didn't hear of them.

    17 MR. SAYERS: I'll move on, Your Honour. I

    18 just have a few clean-up questions.

    19 Q. You were never actually arrested on April the

    20 16th, were you? 1993, that is.

    21 A. Fortunately not. No, I wasn't.

    22 Q. You remained in Stari Vitez with some

    23 UNPROFOR-sponsored excursions from April the 16th,

    24 1993, to February the 24th, 1994; right?

    25 A. Between the 15th of April in the evening

  104. 1 until the summer of 1994, throughout all the time I was

    2 in Stari Vitez.

    3 MR. SAYERS: If I may have two seconds to

    4 confer with Mr. Stein. I hope I haven't been too

    5 extravagant with my time estimate. I think I'm at the

    6 end of my questioning, Your Honours.

    7 Yes, I do have one question.

    8 Q. Did you investigate the incident on June the

    9 10th of 1993 where eight Croat children playing a game

    10 were killed by a grenade thrown from Stari Vitez close

    11 to the house of Hakija Cengic?

    12 A. No, I did not investigate that or very many

    13 other details, but I did hear that an incident of that

    14 kind took place. I talked to people about that, but I

    15 do not really know anything about the whole incident.

    16 Q. What kinds of investigations were carried out

    17 into that situation, sir, with eight small children

    18 killed by a grenade; do you know?

    19 A. No, I don't, because Stari Vitez was blocked

    20 off, it was surrounded, and it is quite possible that

    21 something was done but in the part of the territory

    22 controlled by the army of B and H. In Vitez, we simply

    23 could know nothing about it. We had nothing to do with

    24 it and could not follow these things, and I was in

    25 Stari Vitez so I simply cannot know. I had no ways of

  105. 1 knowing what was going on outside Stari Vitez.

    2 Q. When that incident occurred, you were still

    3 the president of the SDA, the Party for Democratic

    4 Action?

    5 A. Yes. It was wartime.

    6 Q. You didn't feel that you had any

    7 responsibility to investigate that incident, I take it,

    8 sir.

    9 A. Well, it is a relative matter, whether

    10 somebody is responsible or not. To begin with, I don't

    11 know how it happened and whether it happened at all. I

    12 never gave orders to anyone to fire or to throw

    13 grenades from either side.

    14 As a man, as a human being, of course, I can

    15 condemn that incident, and I think that the one who did

    16 it, if he did it, should be called to account. I think

    17 he should be punished for that. That is, as a human

    18 being, I can condemn that, but I had no say in the

    19 matter. I could not either prevent it or not prevent

    20 it because I, myself, was in association when I and my

    21 family could be hit by a grenade any time.

    22 MR. SAYERS: Mr. Kajmovic, thank you very

    23 much. I have no further questions, unless the Trial

    24 Chamber has any for me.

    25 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) Thank you,

  106. 1 Mr. President.

    2 Mr. Kajmovic, I'm Bozidar Kovacic. I'm

    3 Defence counsel with my colleague, Mr. Mikulicic, and

    4 I'm representing Mr. Cerkez here.

    5 I also have several questions for you, and I

    6 should like to kindly ask you, because of the

    7 interpreters, and the two of us speak the same

    8 language, we can easily understand one another, but

    9 will you please try to make a break or wait, and I

    10 shall also endeavour to make a break, because otherwise

    11 we can run into major trouble. Nobody understands what

    12 we are talking about, and that's that.

    13 Cross-examined by Mr. Kovacic:

    14 Q. So, Mr. Kajmovic, will you please tell us,

    15 briefly only, did you know my client's family, Mario

    16 Cerkez's family, that is, prior to the fighting, prior

    17 to the conflict in Vitez; did you know them?

    18 A. I heard about them, but not personally.

    19 Q. So you didn't know the mother or father?

    20 A. No.

    21 Q. Did you have any common friends with Mario

    22 Cerkez?

    23 A. No.

    24 Q. You didn't have any friends in common?

    25 A. Possibly there were some, but I don't

  107. 1 remember.

    2 Q. But do you remember, since his mother worked

    3 at the post office, she was a clerk in the post office,

    4 who usually know people in such small places?

    5 A. Perhaps I knew him by sight, but otherwise I

    6 don't.

    7 Q. Will you please --

    8 THE INTERPRETER: Could counsel slow down,

    9 please.

    10 MR. KOVACIC:

    11 Q. I didn't really understand with regard to --

    12 JUDGE MAY: Please slow down.

    13 MR. KOVACIC: (Interpretation) I apologise.

    14 Q. My question, as regards your master's thesis,

    15 I'm not sure I understood you quite well.

    16 Last year, when you testified in the Blaskic

    17 case, it was announced that in June you would be

    18 defending the thesis?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Is that true?

    21 A. It is.

    22 Q. On Friday, my learned friend from the

    23 Prosecution said that you still needed an oral

    24 examination, that was all that was left that you had to

    25 do, and then you yourself said that you still had to do

  108. 1 things in regard with this thesis. I'm not sure.

    2 A. Yes. May I explain it?

    3 Q. Yes. Will you please tell us?

    4 A. Well, Mirko Pejanovic is my tutor, and after

    5 I completed my thesis, I gave it to him and he had some

    6 comments to make. He wanted me to supplement my work

    7 with two more issues. One was the referendum conducted

    8 on the independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and secondly

    9 to explain in more detail the elections of '91, because

    10 I touched only briefly upon it in my work, and that I

    11 had to add something about the matters and purposes for

    12 my instigating the first part of my paper. He had no

    13 other comments, and I'm about to finish this. Then

    14 when it is decided, then I shall do it. I thought

    15 indeed that I would finish it by June, but

    16 unfortunately I was also very busy and had no time to

    17 do it.

    18 Then Pejanovic also spent a lot of time going

    19 through my paper, and so that is why it had to be

    20 postponed.

    21 Q. Thank you very much. Now I understand.

    22 Before the war broke out in

    23 Bosnia-Herzegovina, what was your citizenship?

    24 A. Well, you should know that all the citizens

    25 of the former SFRY had the nationality or the

  109. 1 citizenship of that State.

    2 Q. Right. But has anything changed in this

    3 regard after the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina became

    4 a sovereign State in April of 1992?

    5 A. Yes, of course it changed. I am referring to

    6 myself. I'm now a national of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

    7 Q. So you first acquired the republican

    8 citizenship only after the sovereignty of '92?

    9 A. Well, the same holds true of the Slovenians,

    10 the Croats, and everybody else.

    11 Q. Thank you. Tell us, have you ever heard that

    12 pursuant to the laws of the former Yugoslavia, the

    13 Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, that under

    14 its laws, all citizens enjoyed first the republican

    15 nationality and then only the [indiscernible]

    16 nationality deriving from it?

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. You heard about it?

    19 A. Yes, I heard something about it, but since I

    20 have no legal training, I didn't go into details.

    21 Q. But then nothing has changed. You continued

    22 as a national of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    23 A. Yes. First of all, a national of Bosnia and

    24 then of Yugoslavia.

    25 Q. Right, thank you. Mr. Kajmovic, are you a

  110. 1 practising believer?

    2 A. Well, rather "No" than "Yes."

    3 Q. But are you practising?

    4 A. Well, that is why I said so. I don't,

    5 really. I'm not really practising. I don't really

    6 observe it, in particular, apart from some religious

    7 holidays. It's more the tradition that I try to

    8 observe.

    9 Q. I see. Thank you very much.

    10 Mr. Kajmovic, a while ago Mr. Sayers asked

    11 you about some things, and it reminded me. I think

    12 that it was on no less than two occasions during the

    13 examination, you said, "I was not informed about events

    14 or developments in other municipalities," and even at

    15 some point you said, "I don't know much about what was

    16 going on in the municipality of Vitez beyond Stari

    17 Vitez, outside Stari Vitez, where I was between the

    18 15th of April, 1992, until the summer of 1994."

    19 A. Yes. During that period of time, I was not

    20 informed about what was going on outside Stari Vitez.

    21 Q. But tell me why. What was the trouble? Why

    22 weren't you informed?

    23 A. Well, the problem was that we simply could

    24 not leave Stari Vitez.

    25 Q. The usual mass media, television, radio,

  111. 1 newspapers --

    2 A. No, no, no. There was no electricity, so

    3 that people tried to make some generating stations and

    4 trying to use transistors and things, but it was

    5 impossible. I mean some people managed, but we on the

    6 front line, we simply had no electricity, so I had no

    7 way of listening to the media.

    8 Q. So can we agree then it was the

    9 inaccessibility of the information or, rather, the

    10 inaccessibility of public information is why you were

    11 uninformed, that you were blocked off from information?

    12 A. Well, the blockade was in the first place

    13 military. I mean the information can be obtained

    14 unless you're militarily blocked, and I simply could

    15 not gain access to any source of information.

    16 Q. So in other words, you had no access to

    17 sources of information or to any media?

    18 A. Well, no, I didn't.

    19 Q. Do you think that, in general terms, the

    20 situation in the Vitez municipality during that wartime

    21 was good or better or significantly better for other

    22 citizens, I mean all of its inhabitants?

    23 A. Well, for us in Stari Vitez, and there were

    24 about 1.200 people there, we really had it very, very

    25 hard, terribly hard. In other areas, later on when it

  112. 1 was all over, I know that people had all sorts of

    2 problems with regard to food, health care, power supply

    3 and so on and so forth. I believe even in that part of

    4 Vitez which was controlled by the HVO, I don't think

    5 they had it much easier either, because they also had

    6 problems with the water supply and --

    7 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, let's not dwell on this. It is

    8 common knowledge that they had problems, but what I'm

    9 interested in is whether those outside Stari Vitez were

    10 in a much better situation or in a worse situation as

    11 regards media, public information.

    12 A. Well, they were in a slightly better

    13 situation.

    14 Q. Slightly better, you say. Thank you.

    15 In your statement of 1995 for the

    16 investigators, at some point you spoke about -- just a

    17 moment. I'll try to cut this short, if possible.

    18 At some point, you mentioned a meeting held

    19 in the post office building, and you said that

    20 Mr. Sefkija Dzidic was there, he was the commander of

    21 the Territorial Defence, Mr. Faud Kaknjo, the president

    22 of the executive board, Mr. Ivica Santic, the municipal

    23 mayor, Mr. Pero Skopljak, you, and Mario Cerkez. What

    24 was that period of time? It is not quite clear from

    25 this fragment.

  113. 1 A. Yes. This was the time when there were

    2 several of those ultimatums, so it was roughly after

    3 the 20th of October, 1992, until the -- between the

    4 20th of October and the 16th of April, '93.

    5 Several of those ultimatums were made during

    6 that period of time, and this was one of those

    7 meetings, and that Pero said that might -- that those

    8 who were stronger would rule this area and so on and so

    9 forth.

    10 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, just wait a moment. I'll try

    11 to take you there by shortcut first.

    12 So that was sometime in late '92 until the

    13 fighting broke out in '93?

    14 A. Yes, roughly that time.

    15 Q. Tell me, are you sure that Mario Cerkez was

    16 present at that meeting?

    17 A. As far as I can recollect now, I think he

    18 was.

    19 Q. I'm asking you that because there were

    20 several meetings and encounters, and that is why I'm

    21 checking about this meeting. Do you remember him

    22 saying anything, if he was present? Did he take an

    23 active part in the meeting?

    24 A. No, he didn't participate much in the debate

    25 at that meeting in the post office. Pero Skopljak

  114. 1 spoke more than he did at that meeting.

    2 Q. In connection with this event, you said that

    3 Mr. Cerkez was some sort of a commander at that time in

    4 Vitez?

    5 A. Yes, that he was most probably the commander

    6 of the Vitez Brigade.

    7 Q. Do you know when the Vitez Brigade was

    8 formed?

    9 A. No, I don't know those details. I'm not

    10 familiar with the military structures in detail.

    11 Q. In view of the fact that in 1992 you were a

    12 member of the crisis staff, and that there were a

    13 series of meetings and contacts between the two sides,

    14 could you at least tell us whether the Vitez Brigade

    15 existed in the course of 1992 at all?

    16 A. I think it did.

    17 Q. You think it had been founded in 1992?

    18 A. Yes, it certainly existed.

    19 Q. Let me remind you, do you remember the period

    20 when there was a joint inter-municipality brigade

    21 called Stjepan Tomasevic?

    22 A. Are you referring to HVO members of Vitez and

    23 Novi Travnik?

    24 Q. Yes.

    25 A. Such information did reach me, and in fact

  115. 1 that the commander of that brigade was Mario Cerkez.

    2 But I really don't know the details, and I think it

    3 would be better for you to get that information from

    4 someone else.

    5 Q. Very well, then, we can agree that you do not

    6 know exactly whether Cerkez was a commander in 1992 and

    7 which units?

    8 A. I really do know very little about the

    9 military units. What reached me may have been correct

    10 or not. But even that was not reliable. I really

    11 don't think that it was reliable, as far as the

    12 military is concerned, because I was more involved in

    13 political activities. So please don't insist, because

    14 I'll really not sufficiently familiar with those

    15 things.

    16 Q. Very well. Thank you.

    17 Mr. Kajmovic, at one point in your testimony,

    18 you said that there were few moderates among the Croats

    19 -- I think those were your words -- and that as an

    20 example, you mentioned Mr. Boro Jozic.

    21 A. No.

    22 Q. I apologise: You mentioned Ivan Budimir.

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. Did Budimir -- was he well seen, was he

    25 respected?

  116. 1 A. Yes, he was a man who was for a time the

    2 coach of the football club, and who, for a brief

    3 period, worked as a teacher of physical education in

    4 the secondary school centre, and for a time I think he

    5 was even commander of the military police in Vitez.

    6 But he really is a man of tolerance, without any

    7 extremist views.

    8 Q. Could one say that he was man of credibility?

    9 A. Yes, as far as the Bosniak side is concerned,

    10 we trusted him.

    11 Q. Does that mean that the Croatian side didn't?

    12 A. I think they did, up to a point, up to a

    13 certain period of time.

    14 Q. Mr. Kajmovic, you also said at the time that

    15 he was killed by the HVO; that was the first I heard of

    16 it.

    17 A. Yes, I assumed that that was done, though I

    18 do not have any hard evidence.

    19 Q. So no evidence?

    20 A. Only a conversation with Ivica Santic, and I

    21 must tell you quite frankly that I don't believe what

    22 he said, because I asked him.

    23 Q. So can it be said that these were rumours

    24 that you heard?

    25 A. I had a concrete conversation with Ivica

  117. 1 Santic, and he explained to me briefly what had

    2 happened, but I'm afraid I cannot believe in that

    3 version of events.

    4 Q. May I ask you, then, the following -- will

    5 you just answer "Yes" or "No"?

    6 A. Yes, you can.

    7 Q. Did Santic tell you that he had heard

    8 something from somebody else?

    9 A. No, I do not recall that. I don't remember

    10 him saying anything to that effect.

    11 Q. Very well. Thank you.

    12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, it's now 5 past

    13 4.00. Are you going to be very much longer with this

    14 witness?

    15 MR. KOVACIC: Could you give me just two

    16 minutes?

    17 JUDGE MAY: If you can finish the examination

    18 in ten minutes, no doubt we would be prepared to sit

    19 for that.

    20 MR. KOVACIC: No, sir, I cannot be so fast.

    21 It's difficult to me to make any forecast, because my

    22 colleague, Mr. Sayers, took some parts of it. Still,

    23 some pieces are remaining, and I will need to

    24 reconsider everything, but I guess -- an hour and a

    25 half, up to two hours max, I could have it.

  118. 1 JUDGE MAY: I think two hours is more than

    2 enough. I hope you can do it in an hour.

    3 MR. KOVACIC: That's very reasonable for me.

    4 Should we finish now?

    5 JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn now.

    6 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you, sir.

    7 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kajmovic, would you be back

    8 tomorrow morning, please, at 9.45, and your testimony

    9 will be finished then.

    10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at

    11 4.05 p.m., to be reconvened on

    12 Tuesday, the 15th day of June, 1999,

    13 at 9.45 a.m.