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  1. 1 Monday, 12th July, 1999

    2 (Open session)

    3 (The accused entered court)

    4 (The witness entered court)

    5 --- Upon commencing at 2.33 p.m.

    6 THE REGISTRAR: Good afternoon, Your

    7 Honours. This is case number IT-95-14/2-T, the

    8 Prosecutor versus Dario Kordic and Mario Cerkez.

    9 WITNESS: WITNESS J (Resumed)

    10 Examined by Mr. Scott:

    11 [Witness testified through Interpreter]

    12 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour. For

    13 Court and counsel, we were up to, by my note, paragraph

    14 54 of the outline.

    15 Q. Witness J, we had worked our way up into

    16 essentially a chronological point of the story, to

    17 January of 1993, and I would like to spend a few

    18 minutes on that, please.

    19 Would it be your testimony today, sir, that

    20 in January 1993, the Muslims in Busovaca could not move

    21 around but the only people or forces which essentially

    22 had freedom of movement was the HVO police and

    23 soldiers?

    24 A. Yes, correct. Though some of us could move a

    25 little, we sought not to be seen by them. But as soon

  2. 1 as there was one, two, or three men together, it was

    2 impossible. It was prohibited.

    3 Q. Directing your attention to the night of the

    4 21st of January, 1993. Is it correct that Mirsad

    5 Delija was killed when HVO soldiers knocked on his

    6 door, and when Delija went out on the balcony to see

    7 who was knocking, he was shot and killed or perhaps

    8 subsequently died from those wounds?

    9 A. That is right. He was killed immediately.

    10 Q. Now, on that same evening, is it correct that

    11 you were home with your family in your house in

    12 Busovaca watching television around 10.15, you heard

    13 footsteps outside your home, and then there was a

    14 strong explosion that shattered a large window in your

    15 living room, and about the time that you and your

    16 family were trying to escape from the house, the front

    17 door was broken in by people who identified themselves

    18 as HVO police?

    19 A. Yes, that was exactly how it was.

    20 Q. Did these HVO police officers fire shots into

    21 your house? Is that correct?

    22 A. Yes. [No interpretation]

    23 Q. Is it also correct, Witness J, that in the

    24 process of leaving the house, you were able to fire

    25 some shots from a weapon back, and that you and your

  3. 1 family were able to escape and spent the night in some

    2 surrounding woods?

    3 A. Exactly so.

    4 Q. Now, later on during that same evening, is it

    5 correct, Witness J, that while you could not identify

    6 the particular individuals doing the looting and you

    7 could not see the patches or insignia, you did see that

    8 they were wearing camouflage uniforms, and by their

    9 statements among themselves, identified themselves as

    10 HVO military police?

    11 A. Yes, it is true that I couldn't see, but I

    12 was able to gather that from their cries and shouts,

    13 "This is the HVO police. Open up." And then they

    14 started shooting.

    15 Q. During that same time, is it correct that

    16 they stole a number of items from your house, including

    17 your Volkswagen Golf car and various household

    18 appliances?

    19 A. Yes. They, in fact, took everything. They

    20 moved me out. There was nothing left.

    21 Q. Now, later that same night, at about 3.00 in

    22 the morning on what actually would have been then the

    23 22nd of January, 1993, is it correct that you saw three

    24 men in uniform again come to your house in what you

    25 believe was probably a black Mercedes and also entered

  4. 1 the house and, to your observation, took items from the

    2 house?

    3 A. Yes, yes, about 3.00. That is what they

    4 did. They probably picked up what little was left.

    5 Q. And then later on the morning of the 22nd of

    6 January, you were able to return to your house and then

    7 see firsthand that essentially all of your property had

    8 been stolen; is that correct?

    9 A. Yes, correct.

    10 Q. On the 23rd of January, was this same house

    11 of yours riddled with gunfire?

    12 A. It was. It was riddled with bullets from a

    13 distance of about 20 or 30 metres from the road. It

    14 was clearly visible where the shots were coming from

    15 because there were casings on the ground.

    16 Q. Later during the night of the 22nd or 23rd of

    17 January, were you able to see other HVO looting going

    18 on in the town of Busovaca?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. On the same night -- excuse me, I'm sorry --

    21 did the HVO blow up two coffee shops in Busovaca?

    22 A. They did. They blew up two coffee shops, and

    23 the next night, there were more and more planted mines,

    24 so that the nights were very difficult to live

    25 through. The days were, after all, a little easier.

  5. 1 Q. Now, I direct your attention to the night of

    2 the 23rd and 24th of January, 1993. Did something

    3 happen to your house on that night?

    4 A. Yes. It was set on fire. Explosives were

    5 placed, there was a strong explosion, and it burned

    6 down very quickly.

    7 Q. Is it correct, sir, that this was the first

    8 Muslim house destroyed in Busovaca?

    9 A. The first Muslim house in the town of

    10 Busovaca, yes.

    11 Q. This is the same house which you testified on

    12 Thursday was approximately 150 metres from Dario

    13 Kordic's house; is that correct?

    14 A. Roughly so, yes.

    15 Q. Did you have any information, sir, as to who

    16 participated in blowing up and/or burning down your

    17 house?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Can you tell the Court what you know about

    20 that?

    21 A. A white car was seen at Dario's brother's

    22 place, and with him was Aleksandar Ruzic, known as Aco,

    23 and some other, to me, unknown people, but these two I

    24 knew, and they set fire to the house.

    25 Q. You said that a white car was seen. What is

  6. 1 the significance -- I'm not sure from your answer just

    2 now the significance of the white car is clear. Why is

    3 that important?

    4 A. Because, in those days, such a car was driven

    5 only by Dario's brother.

    6 Q. Was that car seen at your house at the time

    7 it was destroyed?

    8 A. Yes, it was seen. It was seen by my

    9 brother-in-law, my wife's brother, whose house is only

    10 10 metres away from mine.

    11 Q. Later on that same night, two more Muslim

    12 shops in Busovaca were blown up and destroyed; is that

    13 correct?

    14 A. Yes. Every night, one or two business

    15 premises were blown up. Hand grenades were thrown in,

    16 they were looted; everything was taken from them. And

    17 this went on until the night of the 25th. This

    18 happened every evening.

    19 Q. All right. Is it fair to say that on the

    20 night of the 25th of January, 1993, or it could have

    21 been the night between, if you will, the 24th and 25th

    22 of January, that most of what were the then remaining

    23 Muslim shops in Busovaca were blown up and looted,

    24 including your shop?

    25 A. Yes, they were all blown up and looted.

  7. 1 Q. Do you recall how your shop in particular was

    2 destroyed?

    3 A. With a hand grenade. They threw in a bomb.

    4 It was an ordinary house whereas the premises that we

    5 owned in the centre of town and a relative of mine who

    6 had premises right next to mine, his were also

    7 destroyed.

    8 Q. Let me direct your attention then to that

    9 following morning, on the 25th of January. Is it

    10 correct, sir, that at about 5.30 or 6.00 that morning,

    11 a fire siren sounded in Busovaca, and then there was a

    12 lot of shooting, and it came to your attention or

    13 knowledge at that time and later that morning that

    14 there were a number of snipers firing in the town and

    15 also there was some artillery shelling?

    16 A. Yes, that is correct. The siren sounded, and

    17 as soon as it stopped, terrible gunfire broke out from

    18 all sides.

    19 Q. Were you able to see from where you were on

    20 the morning of the 25th the HVO soldiers attacking

    21 Busovaca?

    22 A. It could be seen. It could be seen that

    23 there were snipers in the surrounding buildings, and

    24 from the surrounding hills, one could also see an

    25 anti-aircraft machine gun being brought in a truck

  8. 1 behind the old school and the shooting going on from

    2 all sides.

    3 Q. Were you able to identify that morning, or

    4 during the day of the 25th of January, various units,

    5 military units or formations based upon the insignia or

    6 patches that you saw on uniforms?

    7 A. On that morning, no, but when we had been

    8 forced to the square in the centre of Busovaca, then

    9 one could see and I could see insignia of the HV army,

    10 HVO, HOS, and the Runolist Brigade.

    11 Q. Did you have any information as to where the

    12 Runolist Brigade was from? Where were they based?

    13 A. No. No, I didn't know, but they were clearly

    14 not from our part of the country because their accent

    15 was quite different. From their accent, one could tell

    16 that they came from Herzegovina.

    17 Q. Did you find it to be generally the case, in

    18 the instances that you've testified about on Thursday

    19 last week and again today, that whenever there was an

    20 HVO action, say in Busovaca, that to your knowledge,

    21 generally there would be forces and components of HVO

    22 forces from outside Busovaca as well?

    23 A. Correct. They all took part, from Vitez,

    24 Travnik, Kiseljak, Herzegovina, and I don't know from

    25 where else.

  9. 1 Q. If I can ask the usher, please, to show you

    2 Exhibits Z1529 and 2564.

    3 MR. SCOTT: These have been distributed

    4 previously, Your Honour, I believe, in terms of work

    5 copies for counsel and the Court.

    6 A. Yes, that is it.

    7 MR. SCOTT: Now, let me direct your

    8 attention, first of all, to Exhibit 1529. Did you see

    9 that patch or insignia on the 25th of January, 1993?

    10 A. Yes.

    11 Q. Did you -- I'm sorry. Yes.

    12 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Can you use

    13 the ELMO, please, for the Chamber?

    14 MR. SCOTT: I'm sorry, Your Honour. I didn't

    15 look up. I thought it was on. I apologise.

    16 Q. All right. So, to go back in terms of what

    17 is on the ELMO, Witness J, a moment ago we referred to

    18 1529. That is the patch, as we look at the screen,

    19 that is on the right; is that correct?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. On the 25th of January, 1993, did you also

    22 see the patch which on the same visual is marked as

    23 2564?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. You saw both those patches, in fact, on the

  10. 1 25th of January in Busovaca?

    2 A. Correct.

    3 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Mr. Scott?

    4 MR. SCOTT: Yes.

    5 JUDGE BENNOUNA: (Interpretation) Could we

    6 have some more precision from the witness? This badge

    7 of the Croatian army and of the HVO, the Bosnian Croat

    8 army, if one can call them that, were these badges worn

    9 by the same people at the same time, by different

    10 people, and what was the proportion, if the witness

    11 could tell us? Which was more dominant, those who wore

    12 one or the other? So could we have a little more

    13 detail, please?

    14 MR. SCOTT: Absolutely, Your Honour.

    15 Q. Witness J, you've heard Judge Bennouna's

    16 questions. When you saw these patches on uniforms,

    17 were they -- is it the case that both patches would be

    18 on the same uniform, for instance, one on each

    19 shoulder, or did you see one patch essentially per

    20 uniform or per person, if you will?

    21 A. Each person had only one badge, either the

    22 HVO, the Croatian Defence Council, or the HV army. The

    23 HVO was the far more numerous. There were far more of

    24 those insignia, whereas there were only a few with the

    25 insignia of the HV army.

  11. 1 Q. Thank you. Now, as you were in town -- is it

    2 true that you were being, essentially, the

    3 population -- or much of the Muslim population of

    4 Busovaca was being gathered together or collected, if

    5 you will, and driven toward the square in the middle of

    6 town?

    7 A. One couldn't really say the majority. At

    8 that moment there were some 90 of us gathered in the

    9 square, and by then they had covered almost all the

    10 other streets and the Mahala. They were already closed

    11 or, rather, shut up at Kaonik. So we were among the

    12 last, some 90 of us, who were the last who remained,

    13 and we were forced to gather in the square.

    14 Q. All right. When you mention "Mahala," was

    15 that a Muslim district, if you will, part of Busovaca?

    16 A. Yes. The area where we were was inhabited

    17 exclusively by Muslims.

    18 Q. As these events were happening on the 25th of

    19 January, is it correct that you saw Muslim women and

    20 children leaving their houses about the same time that

    21 the HVO soldiers would be seen setting the houses on

    22 fire?

    23 A. Yes. There was general fear and panic

    24 everywhere, so that the entire population moved towards

    25 the centre of town, the square, and they were followed

  12. 1 by soldiers who were torching houses one after another,

    2 so that about 15 houses were burnt on that occasion.

    3 Q. Do you know whether some Muslim civilians

    4 were wounded and some killed on that day, the 25th of

    5 January?

    6 A. Yes. There were many. That is the hardest

    7 part. A sniper from the nearby house killed Sedin

    8 Merdan. Just a moment, please. Then on that occasion

    9 also Irhad Ekmecic was killed. In the streets bodies

    10 were seen of Nedzad Navolic, Nihad Merdan, Amir

    11 Hodzic.

    12 In one house at the other end of town three

    13 young men were killed in the same room, Nijaz

    14 Neslanovic, the young Hadzibegovic, and a third whose

    15 name I cannot recollect.

    16 On the bridge, Sunulahpasic, Medju Seliac,

    17 and a maths teacher was killed somewhere near the

    18 police station. I know that we called him Budo.

    19 Then Jahic, a man of 50 to 55 was killed on

    20 the road towards Kaonik, somewhere halfway there, near

    21 the Vatrostalna factory.

    22 Q. All right. Very well. Can you tell the

    23 court, was there any armed resistance to the HVO attack

    24 on the 25th of January? Was there any organised

    25 defence by the Muslims in Busovaca?

  13. 1 A. Not a single shot was fired. There was no

    2 reason for such a thing.

    3 Q. Witness J, were you regarded at that time as

    4 a wealthy or prominent member of the Busovaca

    5 community?

    6 A. One could put it that way.

    7 Q. And were you, on the 25th of January, acting

    8 and existing only in a civilian capacity?

    9 A. Yes. We were all civilians.

    10 Q. Would it be your testimony today, sir, that

    11 as these events were unfolding, various of the Muslim

    12 men, including yourself, were yelling and asking for

    13 the HVO to stop their shooting but the soldiers ignored

    14 your outcries and continued the shooting?

    15 A. Yes. In spite of all our pleas and cries,

    16 they continued shooting until sometime about 3.00 p.m.,

    17 when there was generalised panic and chaos and when

    18 they had forced everyone to the square. Only once we

    19 were all there did the shooting stop, and they

    20 celebrated this as a victory by hugging and kissing.

    21 Q. Can you tell the Court, please, what happened

    22 once the approximately 90 of you were gathered in the

    23 square.

    24 A. In a couple of minutes a bus appeared, and we

    25 were all loaded on to the bus and driven to Kaonik, to

  14. 1 the camp there, to a hangar. These were military

    2 hangars. When we got there, there was some people

    3 there already, so that at one point there were as many

    4 as 300 of us in one hangar.

    5 Q. Witness J, before we get into details of the

    6 camp itself, let me ask you a couple more questions.

    7 When you were in the square, was there an effort to

    8 separate the Muslim men from the women and children who

    9 at that time were still a part of that group?

    10 A. Yes. All the men were separated, and the

    11 women and children were returned to their homes and we

    12 were put on the buses.

    13 Q. In terms of the male Muslims, if you will,

    14 who were taken to Kaonik, did that include men as young

    15 as 14, 15, and 16 years of age?

    16 A. There were some.

    17 Q. Now, when you arrived in the square, can you

    18 tell the Court anything you recall about the buses?

    19 Did the buses come after you were already in the

    20 square, or were the buses -- well, tell the Court what

    21 you remember about the buses.

    22 A. The bus arrived within a minute or two, which

    23 means it must have been parked somewhere there and it

    24 was just waiting for us to be rounded up in the centre,

    25 in the square, and to be picked up. The bus was driven

  15. 1 by Zeljko Vareskovic, known as "Bubreg" or "Kidney."

    2 Q. Is it correct, sir, that Kaonik camp is

    3 approximately 5 kilometres from Busovaca and it took

    4 you approximately ten minutes to be taken there on the

    5 bus?

    6 A. Something like that, yes. Five kilometres

    7 and about a ten-minute drive.

    8 Q. Is it correct that the guards at Kaonik camp

    9 wore camouflage uniforms with HVO patches and, to your

    10 knowledge, were some of the HVO guards from Busovaca?

    11 A. Yes, that's correct.

    12 Q. All right. You testified a moment ago that

    13 when you arrived there, you were taken -- you and the

    14 other prisoners were taken to a hangar. Was this

    15 hangar approximately 20 metres wide and 50 to 70 metres

    16 long?

    17 A. Yes, thereabouts.

    18 Q. Did you come to know about that time that the

    19 commander of the prison camp was a Zlatko Aleksovski?

    20 A. Yes, we learnt that there because we were

    21 lined up facing the wall, one against the other, all

    22 pushed up against each other. At one point, we were

    23 ordered to turn towards the centre, and a man was

    24 standing in the centre who introduced himself and said,

    25 "I am Zlatko Aleksovski. I am the commander of the

  16. 1 prison. Don't be afraid. You won't be harmed. Not a

    2 hair on your head will be harmed."

    3 Q. And this was on the 25th of January; is that

    4 correct?

    5 A. Yes.

    6 Q. If we can just jump ahead in order to put

    7 some time boundaries on the next series of events. You

    8 were then released from Kaonik on about the 8th of

    9 February, 1993; is that correct?

    10 A. Yes, that's correct, exactly on February the

    11 8th.

    12 Q. Now, based upon this approximately, let's

    13 call it two weeks, two-and-a-half-week period, did you

    14 come to know during that time whether Mr. Aleksovski

    15 reported or took direction from someone above him?

    16 A. Yes, yes.

    17 Q. What was your understanding about that?

    18 A. Yes, Mr. Aleksovski only executed orders, and

    19 on one occasion when we were lined up or, that is to

    20 say, when we had returned from digging on one occasion

    21 and were lined up in front of the hangar, in front of

    22 the prison, we were already down in the cells, in the

    23 prison, and when a young man whom we called Pedja came

    24 and he asked Aleksovski for 30 prisoners, to give him

    25 30 prisoners to go and do digging, and he gave him a

  17. 1 piece of paper, and when Mr. Aleksovski looked at the

    2 piece of paper, he told him verbatim that he couldn't

    3 get these prisoners because the paper was not signed

    4 either by Kordic or by Sliskovic.

    5 Q. Witness J --

    6 A. Gudelj told him --

    7 Q. Witness J, I'm going to stop you there

    8 momentarily only for the convenience of the Court and

    9 counsel.

    10 It is not a problem, but just so that

    11 everyone is clear. The witness has jumped ahead to

    12 material that is covered starting at paragraph 155. It

    13 doesn't really matter when we cover it, but just for

    14 the Court's reference, that's where it can be found.

    15 All right. Witness J, I apologise. I cut

    16 you off. You said that Mr. Aleksovski responded to

    17 this HVO officer that the 30 prisoners could not be

    18 released unless he had a signed paper by either

    19 Mr. Kordic or Mr. Sliskovic; is that correct?

    20 A. Yes, that's correct.

    21 Q. What did this officer then reply or say to

    22 Mr. Aleksovski?

    23 A. His answer was that he wasn't taking away

    24 people, he was taking away cattle, and that he didn't

    25 have to have anybody's signatures. However, Aleksovski

  18. 1 categorically refused to give him the men. Then he

    2 left. Some 15 to 20 minutes later, he returned. I did

    3 not see that particular paper, but when he handed the

    4 paper to Aleksovski, he got his men, which means that

    5 it was verified either by Kordic or by Sliskovic.

    6 Q. All right. Now, I'm going to, with that

    7 story in mind, going to go back, and again for the

    8 Court and counsel, returning to approximately paragraph

    9 94 or, actually, 95.

    10 Is it the case, Witness J, that when you

    11 arrived at the prison camp, either at the beginning or

    12 throughout your time, to the extent that you still

    13 possessed any of these particular items throughout your

    14 stay, is it correct that HVO soldiers would take

    15 valuables from the Muslim prisoners, such as jewellery,

    16 watches, and money?

    17 A. They took everything. They took gold and

    18 money. And even shoes, if they were good ones; they

    19 would take them off too. And fur coats and trousers

    20 and anything that was worth anything. They took

    21 everything. So that at one point, they had a whole bag

    22 full of money.

    23 Q. You testified earlier that by the end of the

    24 day on the 25th of January, there were approximately

    25 250 to 300 Muslim men in the hangar at Kaonik; is that

  19. 1 correct?

    2 A. Yes exactly that number.

    3 Q. These prisoners came from such places as

    4 Skradno, Loncari, Strane, and Busovaca?

    5 A. Yes, from all parts they were brought in.

    6 Q. During this early time -- I'm going to try to

    7 skip quickly through the next several paragraphs -- you

    8 had very little comforts available to you; is that fair

    9 to say?

    10 A. Not comforts, it was nothing at all. It was

    11 just a concrete floor, and we spent the night on our

    12 feet walking about to keep warm because it was the 25th

    13 of January, when the nights are very cold in Bosnia,

    14 and so we tried to warm up that way and to keep

    15 ourselves going, to be alive for the next morning.

    16 Q. Even at that early time, is it fair to say

    17 that some of the Muslim prisoners were taken out and,

    18 when they returned to the larger group, you found that

    19 they had been beaten?

    20 A. Yes. That was standard practice.

    21 Q. All right. Let me now direct your attention

    22 to the following day or days. Either on the 26th or

    23 27th of January, is it correct, sir, that an HVO

    24 soldier came into the hangar and read off from a piece

    25 of paper a list of 15 names, with your name being

  20. 1 approximately the 14th on the list?

    2 A. Yes, he read out 15 names. My name was the

    3 14th and my cousin's was the 15th, and we were all

    4 taken outside, and when we went out, we saw that they

    5 were carrying a rope and started tying us up. We were

    6 tied up in the same order in which our names were

    7 called out. So that 13 people were tied up. I, as

    8 number 14, was not tied up because they didn't have

    9 enough rope left, so that I myself and my cousin were

    10 not tied, but my brother was tied and other relations,

    11 five or six of them, and they were taken off as a human

    12 shield, and we were told this straightaway, that we

    13 would be going as a human shield because the village of

    14 Strane was to be surrounded and was to capitulate.

    15 Q. Let me ask you a couple of details: When you

    16 were being tied up, was one of the HVO soldiers the

    17 same Zeljko who had driven the bus that you were on to

    18 Kaonik?

    19 A. Yes. It was Zeljko. There was Pusic as

    20 well, who was a policeman in the HVO, and there was

    21 another person I didn't know but, quite obviously, he

    22 was a professional in tying up people because he did it

    23 better than the others. And then there were some

    24 others standing around, Mirko Cosic, one of them, and,

    25 I don't know, some others.

  21. 1 Q. In terms of some of the prisoners who were

    2 tied up at this time -- I was going to say I would try

    3 to read these to save some time, but I'm not sure it

    4 would be faster if I did.

    5 JUDGE MAY: I don't think the names are going

    6 to assist us, but the witness's brother was apparently

    7 among them.

    8 MR. SCOTT: That's correct.

    9 JUDGE MAY: He himself was not taken off on

    10 this occasion --

    11 MR. SCOTT: I was going to clarify that, Your

    12 Honour.

    13 JUDGE MAY: -- it appears from --

    14 MR. SCOTT:

    15 Q. Witness J, can you clarify for us: You said

    16 that you were not tied up because there wasn't enough

    17 rope left. Can you clarify whether -- were you, in

    18 fact, taken to Strane on this particular occasion or

    19 were you left in the camp?

    20 A. No, I wasn't taken off. I was left in the

    21 prison, in the hangar, whereas the 13 of them were

    22 taken off.

    23 Q. All right.

    24 A. Those 13 young men were all directly from the

    25 town, and they were intentionally, quite obviously,

  22. 1 placed on the list and selected.

    2 Q. Let me ask you, but at the time that you said

    3 the statement was made, you said there was a clear

    4 statement that the intent was to take these men to be

    5 used as human shields, that statement was made while

    6 you were still in -- excuse me -- while the group was

    7 still in camp and you were present?

    8 A. Yes.

    9 Q. And following the Court's lead, I won't

    10 either ask you the name or I won't try to read the

    11 individual names, but is it fair to say that all of

    12 these were Muslim men?

    13 A. Exclusively. Nobody else was held there as

    14 prisoner.

    15 Q. All right. Now, there are a couple of other

    16 questions I was going to ask you about what happened at

    17 Strane, and just so the record is clear, how is it that

    18 you have any information about what happened once these

    19 prisoners were taken outside the camp?

    20 A. Well, after they returned.

    21 Q. And these are the same men you were in prison

    22 with; correct?

    23 A. We were all there together in one hangar, and

    24 when they returned, they were returned amongst us. We

    25 were not in our cells yet. We were all together there

  23. 1 in the hangar. We weren't separated at all.

    2 Q. All right. Did the prisoners, when they

    3 returned, tell you that they were used as human shields

    4 at the village of Strane where the HVO announced to the

    5 Muslims there that if they did not surrender their

    6 weapons, these Muslim prisoners would be killed?

    7 A. Yes, that's right, and according to what my

    8 brother said, they were some 15 metres in front of the

    9 HVO soldiers facing the village.

    10 Q. The HVO soldiers being behind them; is that

    11 correct?

    12 A. Yes, that's correct.

    13 Q. I'm not going to ask you for any names or any

    14 details of this event, but is it fair to say, do you

    15 recall your brother relating to you that one of the HVO

    16 soldiers he saw during these events had been the best

    17 man at his, your brother's, wedding?

    18 A. Yes, that's quite right, and he didn't even

    19 look at him.

    20 Q. Now, the following day, were these same men

    21 taken and used as human shields again at a location or

    22 village called Merdani?

    23 A. Yes, they were. Once again, the same people,

    24 the same 13 young men, were taken away once again

    25 towards the village of Merdani and, according to what

  24. 1 they said, it was ten times worse than the previous

    2 day, because they were lined up on the railway bridge

    3 and they were threatened that they would be slaughtered

    4 if the village of Merdani did not surrender, so that

    5 they stayed there the entire day, tied up as a human

    6 shield.

    7 Q. Now, can you tell the Court, about the time

    8 that these prisoners were then returned to the camp

    9 following this second use as human shields, were you

    10 and the others then moved out of the hangar into

    11 something that most of us would probably know as a

    12 prison cell?

    13 A. Yes, when they returned. And I understood

    14 this, and we were all generally happy that they had

    15 returned. We were then transferred to the cells below

    16 the hangar, which had already been prepared, heaven

    17 knows when, and they were intentionally prepared.

    18 Q. Did these cells measure approximately three

    19 by three metres?

    20 A. Yes, they were three by three, and there were

    21 30 of us, 25, sometimes more in those cells.

    22 Q. Can you relate to the Court, during this

    23 period, once you were put in the prison cells, that you

    24 would be taken out of your cell and beaten?

    25 A. Every night several times. If half an hour

  25. 1 passed by that was a good thing, before they would take

    2 me out again. This happened every single night, every

    3 single night.

    4 Q. Was one of the individuals who was involved

    5 in these beatings -- involved in beating you named

    6 Marelja?

    7 A. Yes. There was this man called Marelja. I

    8 learnt this, heard this, that is, from the guards of

    9 the HVO, who were standing two or three metres away and

    10 calmly looking at all this, watching it all.

    11 Q. To your knowledge, was this individual named

    12 Marelja, was he one of the HVO guards?

    13 A. No. No, he wasn't an HVO guard. He wasn't

    14 from Busovaca. I didn't know him. Judging by the way

    15 he talked, I thought that he might be from

    16 Herzegovina.

    17 Q. Did the HVO guards who were standing close

    18 by, did they ever take any steps to intervene or stop

    19 the beating?

    20 A. Absolutely not. They didn't even try to do

    21 anything.

    22 Q. Can you tell the Court, as a result of these

    23 multiple beatings that you suffered, what your body

    24 looked like after several days?

    25 A. My jaw was broken. My head didn't have any

  26. 1 bruises, but my jaw was broken and the entire -- the

    2 rest of my body was quite black. They were not

    3 bruises, but I was black all over from the beatings.

    4 Q. Did it come to your attention, during your

    5 stay in Kaonik, sir, that the people who were being

    6 taken and interrogated, that to your knowledge, these

    7 interrogations were taking place under the direction or

    8 supervision of Anto Sliskovic?

    9 A. Yes, I'm one of those.

    10 Q. How do you know that?

    11 A. I was personally taken away for interrogation

    12 to the building at the entrance into the camp where

    13 they interrogated me, two interrogators of the HVO

    14 police who were under the orders of Anto Sliskovic.

    15 Anto Sliskovic would also come at all times of the

    16 night, and he would interrogate individuals who were

    17 also taken out of their cells and taken to the building

    18 at the entrance and were interrogated by him there.

    19 Q. Can you relate to the Court anything that any

    20 of the HVO guards would say to you from time to time

    21 that made some reference to Mr. Sliskovic in terms of

    22 you being beaten?

    23 A. Well, there was all kinds of things. A young

    24 man who was a guard, for example, he looked like a

    25 child almost. When they took me out, I think he said

  27. 1 something to this effect, "Well, you've done your bit.

    2 Anto Sliskovic is waiting for you and he'll finish you

    3 off."

    4 Q. Did any of these HVO guards ever say to you

    5 something to the effect of, "Greetings from Anto

    6 Sliskovic"?

    7 A. Well, yes, that did happen. It's not the

    8 guards that said this --

    9 Q. Who said it?

    10 A. -- but that young man, the young man who took

    11 me out of the cell and beat me. After this orgy, he

    12 would send me kind regards from Anto Sliskovic, or kind

    13 regards from Vlado Cosic, or kind regards from somebody

    14 else, that sort of thing.

    15 Q. Now, you've already mentioned in passing that

    16 there was one particular beating incident where you

    17 were taken to another building, away from the hangar or

    18 prison cells, which was close to the entrance of the

    19 Kaonik Prison camp; is that correct?

    20 A. Yes. At the very entrance to the camp.

    21 There's a building there. It is a high building. I

    22 was taken there with another young man, and that young

    23 man was taken up to the first floor before me and

    24 returned 15 minutes later and he was all beaten up.

    25 Then my turn came and they took me off to this first

  28. 1 floor of the building.

    2 Q. Witness J, before you continue with that, let

    3 me stay with the building, if I could, for another

    4 moment or two.

    5 At this time, had you gained any knowledge or

    6 information as any particular use that this building

    7 received or any particular unit or group that was

    8 stationed or used this building? Excuse me, stationed

    9 at or used that building?

    10 A. Yes. At the very entrance to the building

    11 there is a cell there. It is one metre by two metres,

    12 perhaps a little larger, and it has steel bars with no

    13 windows, and I was imprisoned there while the young man

    14 was taken up to the first floor. People would pass by,

    15 that is to say, HVO soldiers passed by the cell, and

    16 that was where their intervention platoon was located.

    17 Some 20 of them were there. So that they would bang on

    18 the bars and say, "You're the wrong nation," and use

    19 derogatory terms and swear at me and so forth. They

    20 said, "Balija."

    21 Q. Were you able to determine during this time

    22 who the commander, the on-site commander of this

    23 particular unit was?

    24 A. Mirko Cosic.

    25 Q. How did that information come to your

  29. 1 attention?

    2 A. I personally saw him. He was a policeman in

    3 ex-Yugoslavia, an experienced one, so that he was the

    4 commander there.

    5 Q. All right. Can you tell me, and I won't

    6 attempt the Bosnian language, but was the English

    7 translation of the unit he commanded, to your

    8 knowledge, something called the Punishment Intervention

    9 Squad?

    10 A. That's what they called it, the Intervention

    11 Squad for emergency intervention. Anything that had to

    12 be done, they were the first there.

    13 Q. Now, can you relate to the Court if you know,

    14 did you ever know of this Mirko Cosic having any

    15 association with Dario Kordic?

    16 A. I don't know whether there was any

    17 association. I don't know what you mean exactly.

    18 Dario Kordic was the overall commander and they

    19 received orders from him.

    20 Q. "Association" is a poor word and it's

    21 probably my fault, especially perhaps with

    22 translation. I didn't mean in a family sense or a

    23 friendship sense, but do you know whether Mr. Cosic,

    24 for instance, was ever seen to be accompanying

    25 Mr. Kordic?

  30. 1 JUDGE MAY: Let's have no leading questions

    2 about this sort of matter.

    3 MR. SCOTT: All right, Your Honour.

    4 Q. Could you tell the Court whether you

    5 observed, at any time, the two individuals that you've

    6 just named together?

    7 A. I couldn't say that I actually saw them

    8 together but that Mirko Cosic would pass by frequently,

    9 and the others, towards Tisovac. That was Kordic's

    10 headquarters, yes.

    11 Q. All right. We'll leave it at that. We've

    12 touched on some of the other items in the next

    13 paragraph or two.

    14 The other individual who was taken with you

    15 on the same occasion was beaten and returned, and then

    16 you were taken to the first floor as well; is that

    17 correct?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. There were five HVO soldiers in the room at

    20 that time?

    21 A. Yes, there were five soldiers. They all had

    22 their backs turned towards me as I came in or, rather,

    23 three of them, and two of them were facing me. I knew

    24 them. One was Petrovic and the other was Katava.

    25 Q. All right. So the record is clear, when you

  31. 1 say "Petrovic," this is Zarko Petrovic, also times

    2 known as Tadija?

    3 A. Yes, exactly.

    4 Q. And the individual you referred to as

    5 "Katava," was his other name Zeljko?

    6 A. Zeljko, yes.

    7 Q. You just said, I believe, you knew these men

    8 from before?

    9 A. Yes. I knew them personally, as they knew

    10 me. In fact, for a moment I was glad to see them, not

    11 knowing what would happen later.

    12 Q. Both of these men were Croats and both of

    13 them at this time were wearing camouflage uniforms with

    14 HVO insignia; is that correct?

    15 A. Exactly.

    16 Q. In your earlier testimony, is it correct,

    17 sir, that you identified both these men as men who

    18 worked for Anto Sliskovic?

    19 A. Yes. They were his closest associates, his

    20 right hand.

    21 Q. Now, on a table in the room, which some might

    22 describe as a table-tennis or a ping-pong table, there

    23 were a number of instruments, sticks, if you will,

    24 wooden, rubber, steel, police instruments on the table;

    25 is that correct?

  32. 1 A. Yes, that is correct. There were many

    2 pieces.

    3 Q. Did you then proceed to be questioned and

    4 beaten for the next approximately three hours?

    5 A. Yes. Petrovic and Katava were interrogating

    6 and the other three were beating with all kinds of

    7 things.

    8 Q. Was it at this time that your jaw was

    9 broken?

    10 A. Yes. At one point this Marelja walked in,

    11 and he knocked me with his fist in the face and broke

    12 my jaw, upon which Katava -- no, not Katava, Tadija

    13 Petrovic cried out, "Not on the head." So after that

    14 they didn't hit me again on the head, but the rest of

    15 my body made up for it.

    16 Q. All right. Let me ask the usher to please

    17 show the witness Exhibit 1862.1, and if you could put

    18 that on the ELMO, please. Let me make sure; 1862.1.

    19 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Scott, you can really deal

    20 with these matters quickly. We've had these

    21 photographs or similar photographs before.

    22 MR. SCOTT: I will move through as quickly as

    23 I can, Your Honour.

    24 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

    25 MR. SCOTT:

  33. 1 Q. Now, if you would look at those, Witness J,

    2 and as the Court just directed, in the interests of

    3 time I'll simply ask you very specific and direction

    4 questions.

    5 This is an aerial photograph of the Kaonik

    6 camp. I don't think that there will be a dispute about

    7 that, I hope. There's a number 1 that has been marked,

    8 encircled and, in fact, are all the markings on this in

    9 terms of the 1, 2, 3 are markings that you previously

    10 made?

    11 A. Yes. Number 1 is the hangar where we were

    12 locked up first; number 2 is the cells, the prison,

    13 with the cells; and number 3 is where I was taken, at

    14 the entrance to the camp, the building where they beat

    15 us and where we were interrogated.

    16 Q. All right. If I can next have the witness

    17 look, please, at 1861.1?

    18 A. Yes, that is the building at the entrance.

    19 Q. With that photograph on the ELMO, can you

    20 point -- and you will have to do it so that it can be

    21 seen on the ELMO itself. The usher can assist you,

    22 please -- can you see the window or the room, on the

    23 outside, obviously, the exterior, where you were taken

    24 and actually beaten?

    25 A. It's this one, this one here (indicating).

  34. 1 MR. SCOTT: For purposes of the record, Your

    2 Honour, let it show that the witness is identifying the

    3 third window from the left of the picture on the first

    4 floor.

    5 All right. I think there are no other

    6 questions about the photograph, unless the Court has

    7 some.

    8 Q. Now, Witness J, I want to ask you about some

    9 other particular individuals in the next couple of

    10 minutes.

    11 JUDGE MAY: Before we get there, please.

    12 What is the relevance of these individuals, please?

    13 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour. Your Honour,

    14 the relevance of these individuals, it is the

    15 Prosecution's view and position for purposes of the

    16 evidence in this case and ultimate argument, that the

    17 individuals named in the next several paragraphs are,

    18 the evidence will show, we believe, close associates or

    19 people who acted with or at the direction of

    20 Mr. Kordic. There are going to be a number of

    21 witnesses, not just Witness J, in addition to witnesses

    22 who have already testified, Your Honour, who are going

    23 to identify and talk about various people around

    24 Mr. Kordic, and I don't think anyone -- I don't think

    25 it is a secret to anyone at this point, that is not the

  35. 1 nature of the Prosecution's case, at least not in very

    2 many instances, that Mr. Kordic would be seen doing the

    3 beating or doing the shooting or doing the burning but

    4 that Mr. Kordic, as most commanders and leaders do, had

    5 people who acted for him and at his direction, and it

    6 is going to be quite material to the Prosecution case

    7 to prove to the Court, ultimately we hope to the

    8 Court's satisfaction, who these lieutenants and

    9 associates and henchmen were, and that's the relevance.

    10 JUDGE MAY: Well, take it quickly, please. I

    11 want, if at all possible, to finish this witness's

    12 evidence today. He has already been here for some

    13 time.

    14 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I will move very

    15 quickly.

    16 Q. Witness J, did you know an individual, during

    17 your time in Busovaca, named Vlado Cosic and, in fact,

    18 was this Mirko's brother?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Did you know or, to your knowledge, at least,

    21 did you believe that this Mr. Cosic was the HVO chief

    22 of police in Busovaca in 1993?

    23 A. Yes, he was under the HVO.

    24 Q. Can you tell the Court, based on your

    25 observation of him, whether he was seen or known to

  36. 1 wear the letter "U", a metallic letter "U" on his hat?

    2 A. He liked that, he liked a black uniform. He

    3 wore his weapon, like a cowboy, on one side, a knife on

    4 another. He wore a black beret with the letter "U" on

    5 it.

    6 Q. During this time in Central Bosnia, to your

    7 knowledge, what did the letter "U", at least in these

    8 circumstances, what did that stand for?

    9 A. It was the symbol of the Ustasha movement, of

    10 fascism.

    11 Q. During this time, did you also know another

    12 individual named Gavro Maric, and can you tell the

    13 Court what you knew about Mr. Maric -- well, in the

    14 interests again, Your Honour, at the Court's direction,

    15 I will try.

    16 Did you know him to be previously a member in

    17 the Civil Defence under the former JNA structure and

    18 then subsequently, during the conflict in Central

    19 Bosnia in 1993, became the head of what you believed

    20 was a special Bosnian Croat military or police unit in

    21 the Busovaca area?

    22 A. Yes, Gavro Maric, in ex-Yugoslavia, worked in

    23 the Territorial Defence and the National Defence, but

    24 when the conflict broke out and when everything went

    25 downhill, he was one of the commanders in Kordic's

  37. 1 units. I don't know exactly of what he was the

    2 commander, but he had a somewhat higher rank.

    3 Q. All right. Let's move on to Nikica

    4 Petrovic. Was he also, to your knowledge, an HVO

    5 police official in Busovaca?

    6 A. Yes, he was.

    7 Q. Did you know him to have any particular role

    8 in connection with people's ability to come and go from

    9 the town of Busovaca in terms of movement?

    10 A. I wouldn't put it quite like that. He was

    11 the coordinator for movement out of Busovaca and

    12 everything went through his hands regarding the few

    13 people who were left behind after the conflict who were

    14 still living in Busovaca. He was the only one who

    15 could grant permission for leaving or not leaving

    16 Busovaca. That's what he did.

    17 Q. Do you have firsthand knowledge of this

    18 particular situation because of your father's attempt

    19 to leave Busovaca?

    20 A. Yes.

    21 Q. And it -- go ahead.

    22 A. He tried many times and he was not granted

    23 permission to leave, and then, in the end, Anto

    24 Sliskovic gave him that permission. So that he left,

    25 at least according to his own account, at the very last

  38. 1 minute; otherwise, he would have been killed.

    2 Q. Can you tell the Court, based on your

    3 observation or knowledge, and I don't want you to

    4 speculate but based on observation or knowledge, can

    5 you tell the Court again what relationship, in terms of

    6 any command or control relationship that Mr. Petrovic

    7 had in relation to Dario Kordic?

    8 A. In any army, including the HVO, it is quite

    9 clear, Kordic was the Number 1 man. Nothing happened

    10 without his knowledge nor was it possible to do

    11 anything without his knowledge. All these people were

    12 just clerks who were carrying out and implementing his

    13 ideas, his instructions.

    14 Q. All right. Let me go to one final one,

    15 please: Florijan Glavocevic. Is it correct that he

    16 was the president of something that you've called --

    17 and I just want to make it clear, these are essentially

    18 the witness's words -- the Busovaca War Council; is

    19 that correct?

    20 A. Correct. It was set up and Florijan

    21 Glavocevic headed it, but his competencies were

    22 insignificant because absolutely nothing, nothing,

    23 absolutely nothing could he decide or do without Dario

    24 Kordic.

    25 Q. In the interests of what we are talking

  39. 1 about, individuals, is it fair to say, Witness J, that

    2 you have no knowledge of and had no dealings with Mario

    3 Cerkez?

    4 A. No. I don't know that man. I don't know. I

    5 never even heard anything about him.

    6 Q. Is it correct, sir --

    7 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Yes. Your Honour, please.

    8 JUDGE ROBINSON: When the witness said that

    9 Glavocevic couldn't do anything without Kordic's

    10 approval, is he speaking from his personal knowledge or

    11 from information that he received?

    12 MR. SCOTT:

    13 Q. Can you answer the Court's question,

    14 Witness J? I mean, again, what do you base your

    15 assessment or statement on?

    16 A. Both on my personal experience and on events,

    17 the chronology of events in Busovaca. It was logical

    18 that such a man would be the Number 1. However, he, in

    19 fact, could do nothing. He could prevent nothing nor

    20 order anything. He could do absolutely nothing.

    21 Q. So the record is clear, you're referring now

    22 to Florijan; is that correct?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. So you're saying your physical observations

    25 of him, just to clarify your response to Judge

  40. 1 Robinson's question, he was supposed to have a high

    2 position, and yet when you could see his actions in

    3 town --

    4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Scott, the witness is giving

    5 the evidence about these matters. Now, please, allow

    6 him to do it --

    7 MR. SCOTT: Very well, Your Honour.

    8 JUDGE MAY: -- rather than putting words into

    9 his mouth.

    10 MR. SCOTT: My apologies. I thought I was

    11 trying to help, but obviously I wasn't.

    12 Q. Can you answer? Can you provide any more

    13 response to Judge Robinson's question, please?

    14 A. Yes. I even had occasion, together with

    15 another Muslim, to go to Florijan's office in the

    16 municipality, where he received us very cordially, and

    17 we tried to talk about some things, to which he replied

    18 explicitly that he could do nothing without consulting

    19 Mr. Dario.

    20 Q. All right. Let's go on.

    21 MR. STEIN: May it please the Court?

    22 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

    23 MR. STEIN: This was forecast in the papers

    24 preceding this trial, that the Prosecution's case of

    25 criminal association or criminal conspiracy, which is

  41. 1 exactly what we heard a few minutes ago as to why these

    2 testimonies will be important, would be coming on by

    3 way of evidence, and it is problematic for all of us

    4 because it is a different evidentiary standard that is

    5 needed. We suddenly are suddenly responsible for the

    6 defence of individuals over whom we have no control or

    7 notice or who have not been indicted, they're

    8 essentially unindicted co-conspirators, and I'm just

    9 concerned that this continuing reference that

    10 Mr. Kordic was in charge of everything and everyone

    11 without a basis, without a specification, and done in a

    12 leading fashion, will require us to take on a burden

    13 that should not be on our shoulders.

    14 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Stein, you can cross-examine

    15 about all these matters, find out the basis upon which

    16 the witness gives his evidence. I have made sure that

    17 there are no leading questions about issues of this

    18 sort --

    19 MR. STEIN: You certainly have, sir.

    20 JUDGE MAY: -- and I will continue to do so.

    21 Yes.

    22 MR. SCOTT: However, Your Honour, the next

    23 series of questions, which are not going to name, I

    24 don't believe, Mr. Kordic -- according to the Court's

    25 direction, I will try to move quickly by leading

  42. 1 questions until -- certainly until there is direction.

    2 Q. Witness J, would it be your testimony that

    3 while you were at Kaonik, you were taken, in the first

    4 instance, to dig trenches, and you were taken, in the

    5 first instance, for about three hours -- excuse me, I'm

    6 sorry. In the interests of speed, I'm getting ahead of

    7 myself.

    8 You were taking to a location near Putis and

    9 you dug trenches there; is that correct?

    10 A. That is correct.

    11 Q. And the guard at that particular location was

    12 Marko Krilic; is that correct?

    13 A. No. Marko Krilic was one of the guards in

    14 the prison --

    15 Q. Very well.

    16 A. -- if you're referring to him, but in the

    17 field, he was not there. When we were taken to Putis,

    18 there were men, guards, wearing HVO uniforms from

    19 Vitez.

    20 Q. All right. Now, you're absolutely correct,

    21 obviously. Before you were taken out into the field,

    22 and this does go to the selection or calling-out

    23 process, can you tell the Court, did it appear to you

    24 that the trench-digging assignments had been organised

    25 in some detail when people like Mr. Krilic would show

  43. 1 up during the day and call people out to be taken?

    2 A. Clearly it was all organised. Lists were

    3 made as in the old days. It was known exactly who was

    4 in which group. The only thing we didn't know was

    5 where we would be sent. They came in with a certain

    6 list, and they called out from that list. Some of us

    7 were not called out but would be taken occasionally to

    8 go with a particular group.

    9 Q. All right. On this particular occasion, you

    10 were taken again out toward Putis, and you dug trenches

    11 there for about an entire day and into the evening and,

    12 in fact, until noon the next day; is that correct?

    13 A. That is exactly correct.

    14 Q. Is it your testimony that, as you indicated,

    15 once you were released from Kaonik camp -- and

    16 "release" is not the right word, but turned over into

    17 the custody of this other group -- these were HVO

    18 soldiers different from the guards; is that correct?

    19 A. Yes.

    20 Q. Did they appear to be what people might

    21 describe as combat soldiers?

    22 A. All of them were under full combat gear with

    23 weapons at the ready pointed at us.

    24 Q. During this first trench-digging incident at

    25 Putis, the guards there -- excuse me -- well, the

  44. 1 soldiers who were guarding you at that location were

    2 from Vitez, and you felt that on that particular

    3 occasion you were not terribly mistreated; is that

    4 correct? You were not mistreated other than the

    5 mistreatment that is part of being used to dig

    6 trenches, I suppose.

    7 Strike the question, Your Honour. It is not

    8 very well said.

    9 On that particular occasion, were you, apart

    10 from digging the trenches themselves, were you beaten

    11 or abused?

    12 A. No, none of our group was mistreated or

    13 beaten or anything on that day because these were

    14 soldiers from Vitez who treated us very correctly and

    15 fairly.

    16 Q. Now, on that same day, did you also observe a

    17 group of 15 HVO soldiers set fire to 10 or to 15 houses

    18 on the road leading to Putis?

    19 A. Yes. Where we were digging, 15 soldiers went

    20 by under full combat gear, they went off towards the

    21 village of Putis and set fire to 10 to 15 houses, after

    22 which they returned or, rather, they passed by us

    23 again.

    24 MR. SCOTT: The Court will note that we

    25 already touched on the next several paragraphs. I'm

  45. 1 skipping to 159.

    2 Q. Sir, you were taken on a second occasion to

    3 dig trenches at another location called Kula, and at

    4 this incident, the conditions and events were much

    5 worse; is that correct?

    6 A. Yes. On the 6th of February, 1993, I was

    7 taken to Kula, and as soon as I got there, my name was

    8 on a special piece of paper and I was called out, and

    9 from that moment on, it was hell.

    10 Q. Did you have knowledge as to where the HVO

    11 soldiers at Kula, people who you were under their

    12 guard, if you will, observation at that time, where

    13 these HVO soldiers were from, if you can tell or knew?

    14 A. There were some people from Busovaca, but

    15 those who did bad things and who mistreated us were not

    16 from Busovaca. They were unknown to me. One of them

    17 was, in fact, a Serb, because some people knew him

    18 personally. I think his name was Nedeljkovic or

    19 something like that. He was one of the worst,

    20 regarding the mistreatment and abuse.

    21 Q. By the time you were taken to Kula on this

    22 occasion, did you already know, from other prisoners

    23 returning from other trench digging exercises, that

    24 Kula was known to be a particularly difficult location

    25 for prisoners?

  46. 1 A. Yes. Yes. Whenever a group returned from

    2 Kula, they were beaten up, with broken ribs, abused in

    3 various ways. So that people were really taking out --

    4 venting their worst feelings on them. It is hard to

    5 imagine the things that they did.

    6 Q. All right. Now, when you were taken to Kula

    7 and you were unloaded from the truck, you were taken,

    8 is it correct, and told to dig a trench about five

    9 centimetres away from a large beech tree; is that

    10 correct?

    11 A. Yes. They told me to dig a trench close to a

    12 tree. It was 20 or 30 centimetres from a tree with a

    13 trunk which was 50 or 60 metres (sic) in diameter. It

    14 is a beech tree, as we call it, so it was impossible

    15 for me to dig so close, but they loved to watch me

    16 digging without really making any progress, especially

    17 as by then I had already been badly beaten up and

    18 didn't have much strength. So they derived a great

    19 deal of satisfaction from watching me. After some

    20 time, they let me dig in places where it was, in fact,

    21 possible to dig.

    22 Q. All right. Before you continue on -- I hope

    23 there won't be an objection, Your Honour -- I believe

    24 the reference to the tree being "50 or 60 metres in

    25 diameter," is it correct, Witness J, that you meant

  47. 1 "centimetres in diameter"?

    2 A. Yes. Yes, of course. Fifty to sixty

    3 centimetres in diameter, yes.

    4 Q. Okay. Let's try to move on. You were then

    5 taken from that location off to another place separate

    6 from the larger group. You were told to take off your

    7 clothes, which you did, except for an undergarment.

    8 This guard, this Serb that you named earlier, the

    9 person you believed to be a Serb, told you to sing a

    10 song that was insulting towards Croats; is that

    11 correct?

    12 A. Yes. He took me behind this tree, this big

    13 oak tree. He told me to take my clothes off, I was

    14 left in an undergarment, and he then he ordered me to

    15 sing. As I probably wasn't singing loudly enough for

    16 him, then he continued beating me with the handle of a

    17 pick axe, ordering me to sing louder.

    18 Q. As you sang the song louder, this song that

    19 was insulting towards Croats, did some of the Croat HVO

    20 soldiers come to you and hit you?

    21 A. Yes. Another two soldiers came and hit me

    22 mercilessly so that I would sing much more loudly this

    23 song, insulting song.

    24 Q. They then took you and you continued to dig

    25 trenches, and is it true, Witness J, that around the

  48. 1 middle of the day, three HVO soldiers came to you and

    2 attempted or pretended to burn your beard which you had

    3 at that time?

    4 A. Yes, that is what they did. They made a

    5 torch from newspapers. As I had a beard, they lit it,

    6 accompanied by peals of laughter. To them it was

    7 joking, playing around with me. Then in the end later

    8 they took off my beret. As it was cold I always wore a

    9 hat, set fire to it. As it couldn't burn, it's made

    10 from such material that it was just scorched, that in

    11 the end they made me eat it and I actually did.

    12 Q. Skipping over a few paragraphs, can you tell

    13 the Court whether, in the course of your being at Kula

    14 during this time and digging trenches and the things

    15 that you've told us about in the last few minutes, did

    16 you have occasion to complain to some of the HVO

    17 soldiers that you should not be treated-- that you and

    18 the others should not be treated the way that you

    19 were?

    20 A. Yes. At one point in time, one afternoon,

    21 Condra, I think his real name was Josip, though I

    22 worked in the same organisation as he did, but I'm not

    23 sure, and Mr. Gadarski, they came by. As we knew each

    24 other very well, I complained about the treatment and

    25 the things that were happening. They listened to me in

  49. 1 a friendly manner, but their reply was that they would

    2 get in touch with Mr. Kordic to see whether anything

    3 could be improved for all of us prisoners and things

    4 that were being done to us while digging but that they

    5 could do nothing.

    6 Q. Later on that same day, was there a situation

    7 where an HVO guard who was known as Hosovac came to

    8 you, took you up the hill with your shovel and pick

    9 axe, and told you then to dig a hole about 60 metres

    10 into the woods?

    11 A. Yes. All day of this mistreatment and

    12 throughout that day they kept threatening with this

    13 person, whom they called Hosovac, that they would come,

    14 that darkness would fall, and that everything would be

    15 over, and that is what happened. He came as dark fell,

    16 and he took me some 50 or 60 metres away from the group

    17 uphill, allegedly to do some repair work. I had to

    18 take my shovel and pick axe, and he ordered me to dig.

    19 When I asked, "What am I digging?" As there were no

    20 trenches there. He said, "Just dig a hole. You're no

    21 fool. You know what you need to dig. Just dig a

    22 hole." So I thought that that was the end.

    23 Q. You thought you were digging your grave?

    24 A. Exactly. What else could it have been?

    25 MR. SCOTT: If the witness could please be

  50. 1 shown Exhibit 2116. If that could be placed on the

    2 ELMO, please.

    3 A. Yes. That is the patch that he wore on his

    4 sleeve.

    5 MR. SCOTT:

    6 Q. This Hosovac would dress in a black uniform,

    7 with a black beret, with an insignia like the one in

    8 2116 on his uniform; is that correct?

    9 A. Yes, just so.

    10 Q. All right. That's all on the photograph.

    11 Now, again to summarise these events, as events turned

    12 out, is it correct, sir, that you were able to

    13 essentially negotiate an agreement with this

    14 individual, to the end that if you agreed to give him

    15 two gold rings and some money that you had still been

    16 able to keep in your possession back at the Kaonik

    17 camp, and in return for that this man would protect you

    18 and the others during the rest of the time at Kula, and

    19 that was the agreement reached; is that correct?

    20 A. (no interpretation) ... so.

    21 Q. And he, in fact, did protect you and the

    22 others for that evening and the next day, and when you

    23 were taken back to Kaonik you, in fact, did give him

    24 the two rings some money; is that correct?

    25 A. I gave him two rings and some money.

  51. 1 MR. SCOTT: Could the usher please show the

    2 witness Exhibit 1870.1? Could that be placed on the

    3 ELMO? Yes.

    4 I apologise, Your Honour. The highlight

    5 doesn't show up very well on the ELMO.

    6 Q. Witness J, if you look toward top of the

    7 exhibit on the ELMO, you will see some yellow

    8 highlighter. It's just been moved down, but the upper

    9 middle part of the page, do you see some yellow

    10 highlighter there?

    11 A. (No audible response)

    12 Q. Could you tell the Court, is that the area

    13 around Putis where you were taken on the first trench

    14 digging exercise that you testified about this

    15 afternoon?

    16 A. Yes, right there. From Strane towards Putis

    17 by Gavrine Kuce, along the main road to Zenica.

    18 Q. Just in the relationship to the town of

    19 Busovaca, if I direct you, if everyone in the courtroom

    20 looks down, directly below that, you will see the town

    21 of Busovaca; is that correct?

    22 A. It's rather hard to see the town of Busovaca

    23 from Strane, from that side, at least from where we

    24 were.

    25 Q. I'm sorry witness, I didn't mean to say if

  52. 1 you were physically standing in Strane, but in terms of

    2 the exhibit, the map --

    3 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I think the document

    4 speaks for itself, obviously, and about the six o'clock

    5 position is the town of Busovaca.

    6 Q. To the right of that is some additional

    7 yellow highlighter. Is that the area around Kula where

    8 you were taken to dig trenches on the second occasion?

    9 A. Yes, that is Kula.

    10 Q. All right. That concludes that exhibit.

    11 Witness J, can you please relate to the Court

    12 a particular situation where when you were being taken

    13 back to Kaonik from -- was it from Kula or from a

    14 Putis, an occasion where you were being taken back to

    15 Kaonik and your group was stopped? It was Kula? Can

    16 you relate to the Court, in your own words, what

    17 happened on that particular occasion?

    18 A. No, it was Putis. We were lined up in a

    19 column, which was quite normal. The guards were

    20 standing around us and they were taking us back to the

    21 camp, to Kaonik. On the bridge in Kaonik, coming

    22 towards us was a car, an U.N. vehicle, UNPROFOR or

    23 whichever, I can't know exactly what the signs on it

    24 were, but a reporter, a female reporter came out of the

    25 vehicle, and several armed people from the United

  53. 1 Nations, and when asked by the first guard, the guard

    2 who was at the front asked where they were taking us,

    3 what they were doing to us, he just said, "Why are you

    4 asking me? Go and ask Kordic, because I've been

    5 brought here too."

    6 Q. Now, following the situation at Kula, was it

    7 the same day or the next day that it turned out that

    8 some prisoners who replaced you, excuse me, some Muslim

    9 prisoners who replaced you at Kula in trench digging,

    10 that it came to your attention, as the information came

    11 back to the camp, that several of them had been killed

    12 while trench digging?

    13 A. Yes. There were 30 of us who were returned

    14 to the camp again, and several new prisoners took our

    15 place at Kula. So that was on the 7th of February.

    16 They too were returned on the morning of the 8th of

    17 February from Kula, and they had all been beaten and

    18 were unrecognisable. Two of them, in fact, three of

    19 them were killed, had been killed. They did not

    20 return, that is. Jasmin Sehovic, Elezovic Nermin, and

    21 I think Mustafa. He was, I think, from somewhere

    22 around Kacuni. They were not returned.

    23 So that this exchange, the exchange that was

    24 to have taken place on the 8th of February, was late

    25 because three people were missing, and they had to be

  54. 1 missing because they had been killed. So the Red Cross

    2 insisted that they be found.

    3 Q. All right, Witness J, we've probably jumped a

    4 bit ahead of ourselves. To put your testimony in

    5 context, let's go back --

    6 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Scott, we need to take a

    7 break shortly. Are you coming to the end?

    8 MR. SCOTT: Very much the end, Your Honour.

    9 I think there's about ten questions left.

    10 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll adjourn for a

    11 quarter of an hour.

    12 --- Recess taken at 4.13 p.m.

    13 --- On resuming at 4.31 p.m.

    14 MR. SCOTT:

    15 Q. Witness J, you had learned some days

    16 preceding the 8th of February, 1993, that there was

    17 going to be a prisoner exchange, an exchange between

    18 the HVO and Muslims; is that correct?

    19 A. Yes, that's correct.

    20 Q. I was about to ask you before the recess that

    21 you had been -- Kaonik had been visited by the Red

    22 Cross, the International Red Cross, on about the 2nd of

    23 February, 1993; is that correct?

    24 A. That's correct. We were all registered by

    25 the Red Cross.

  55. 1 Q. If I could have the usher please show you

    2 Exhibit 2716, which you can see on the ELMO there, sir,

    3 to your right -- well, you have the B/C/S version in

    4 front of you or on the ELMO. Is that the Red Cross

    5 certification or certificate or a copy of that

    6 concerning your being seen at Kaonik on approximately

    7 February 2nd, 1993?

    8 A. That's correct, yes.

    9 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, let me note for the

    10 record and ask that this exhibit be kept and placed

    11 under seal because obviously it bears the name of the

    12 witness, who is protected.

    13 Q. To your knowledge, Witness J, was the Red

    14 Cross allowed to see, in fact, all of the actual

    15 conditions at Kaonik camp on the 2nd of February, 1993,

    16 or, to your knowledge, was it a situation that the

    17 individual prisoners were just taken to a central

    18 location where they could be seen by a Red Cross

    19 representative?

    20 A. Yes, in the hallway between the cells, tables

    21 were set up, and that's where we had our lunch, we ate

    22 our food there, and that is where some of us were

    23 allowed to talk to the officials of the Red Cross, to

    24 exchange a few words with them, whereas all the rest of

    25 us just filled in forms in order to be registered by

  56. 1 the Red Cross.

    2 Q. All right. Now, because of my question, sir,

    3 we jumped ahead, and I apologise. You had mentioned a

    4 few minutes ago that there was a group of Muslim

    5 prisoners taken from Kaonik to replace your work

    6 detail, if you will, when it was brought back to

    7 Kaonik, and it was during or among that group that two

    8 or three Muslim prisoners had been killed; is that

    9 correct?

    10 A. Yes, that's correct.

    11 Q. Did it come to your attention that later that

    12 day, or approximately 5.00 the next morning, if you

    13 will, you awoke to the sound of someone or some persons

    14 being beaten out in the corridor near your cell; is

    15 that correct?

    16 A. Yes, that's correct. It occurred in the

    17 corridor between our cells, because there were cells on

    18 both sides, and you could hear cries and blows, that

    19 somebody was being beaten; and when I beat on the door

    20 to ask to be excused to go to the toilet, one of the

    21 guards came and -- that was what we usually did when we

    22 wanted to go to the toilet. I saw that the HVO police,

    23 led by Babic, Nikesa Babic - Nikesa is his nickname, I

    24 don't know his actual name - but I saw that they were

    25 beating that Hos man and two other people from Kula,

  57. 1 and they were the ones who had maltreated us.

    2 Q. When you say, so the record is clear, "that

    3 Hos man," was this the individual you described earlier

    4 as Hosovac?

    5 A. Yes, from Kula.

    6 Q. As you observed this and talked among

    7 yourselves, can you tell the Court any understanding

    8 that you came to as to why these HVO soldiers were

    9 being beaten or appeared to be being beaten?

    10 A. At Kula during that particular night, some of

    11 the HVO guards became frightened as to what had

    12 happened to those young men and that finally two of

    13 them were actually killed and perhaps a third one too,

    14 but two were certainly killed, Jasmin Sehovic and

    15 Nermin Elezovic, in a very terrible way, so that the

    16 HVO police came and took them to the prison. However,

    17 some gold and some money that was found on them was to

    18 be returned to us later on, but that is a drop in the

    19 ocean compared to what was all taken away, and this

    20 seemed like a good piece of acting to us because, by

    21 what those who stayed in the prison told us, those

    22 people were released the same day.

    23 Q. Did you come to any conclusion whether you

    24 believed that, in fact, the HVO police, the military

    25 police, wanted the Muslims to see or to think that

  58. 1 these people were being punished?

    2 A. Yes. Well, yes, that was quite obvious.

    3 They wanted to show us that they were just and that

    4 they were doing things in the right way and that they

    5 had everything under control. That was the object of

    6 it all. That was their proof.

    7 Q. Can you relate to the Court, please, other

    8 than this particular event that you've testified about

    9 in the last few minutes, during the two and a half

    10 weeks, approximately, that you were in custody, and

    11 concerning all the things you have told us about in

    12 your testimony, did you ever at any time see any other

    13 HVO soldiers or guards disciplined or punished or

    14 stopped in terms of anything that they were doing to

    15 the prisoners?

    16 A. No, not at all. No question of that. That

    17 was never written down in any act or document of the

    18 HVO, that anybody should be punished or disciplined for

    19 anything they did.

    20 Q. Now, on the morning of the 8th of February,

    21 1993, you and some other of the Muslim prisoners were,

    22 in fact, gathered at Kaonik camp and exchanged and

    23 released on that day; is that correct?

    24 A. Yes.

    25 Q. At the time, the exchange was, in fact,

  59. 1 delayed, as you told us a few minutes ago, because at

    2 least two, if not three, of the men who were already

    3 known to the Red Cross, had previously become known to

    4 the Red Cross, could not be found or identified at

    5 Kaonik on the 8th of February; is that correct?

    6 A. Yes, that's correct, because they were still

    7 at Kula, dead, so the exchange was two or three hours

    8 late, as far as I recall. But it nevertheless did take

    9 place ultimately.

    10 Q. Is it correct, sir, that present at the

    11 exchange on the 8th of February, 1993, were Zlatko

    12 Aleksovski, Anto Sliskovic, and Zarko Petrovic?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 MR. SCOTT: One moment. No further

    15 questions, Your Honour.

    16 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Mr. Naumovski?

    17 MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) Thank you,

    18 Your Honours.

    19 Cross-examined by Mr. Naumovski:

    20 [Witness answered through Interpreter]

    21 Q. Mr. J, let me introduce myself. My name is

    22 Mitko Naumovski, I am Defence counsel for Mr. Dario

    23 Kordic. It is standard practice to say at the

    24 beginning that as both of us can understand each other,

    25 I should like to ask you to make pauses between my

  60. 1 questions and your answers so that this can be

    2 interpreted into the other languages. Thank you.

    3 Mr. J, I have some general questions for you

    4 to begin with. Before the war, you were a tradesman,

    5 you had a shop; what do you do now?

    6 A. I am a taxi driver.

    7 Q. Tell us, please, were you a member of the

    8 Party for Democratic Action?

    9 A. Yes, I was.

    10 Q. Throughout?

    11 A. Yes, all the time.

    12 Q. Did you have any particular duties in the SDA

    13 in Busovaca?

    14 A. No.

    15 Q. Tell us, please, on the 8th of February,

    16 1993, you left Busovaca and went to Zenica, did you?

    17 A. Yes, I went to Zenica.

    18 Q. When you arrived in Zenica, were you assigned

    19 a position in the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    20 A. No, because for two whole months, up to the

    21 end of May, that is to say, almost three months, I was

    22 a man half dead. I was undergoing treatment. I could

    23 hardly move. So I had no call-up duties from the army.

    24 Q. Does that mean that you were not a soldier at

    25 all or only those few months?

  61. 1 A. Up until May, I was not, but after that, I

    2 was.

    3 Q. May we agree then that after May 1993, you

    4 were a soldier in the 303rd Mountain Brigade?

    5 A. Yes, I was mobilised.

    6 Q. So the answer is "Yes," if I understood you

    7 correctly?

    8 A. Yes. The answer is "Yes."

    9 Q. Tell us, please, whether, as a soldier, you

    10 went to the Busovaca municipality at all?

    11 A. Yes. I was at Kula as a soldier on the front

    12 line.

    13 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber when this was?

    14 A. From May to the end of the war. I was even

    15 at the delineation line at Kula up until that time.

    16 Q. So if I have understood you correctly, this

    17 entire military service was done at the front line at

    18 Kula from May 1993 to the beginning of 1994; is that

    19 correct?

    20 A. Yes, it is. That's correct.

    21 Q. Thank you. Tell us, please, Witness J,

    22 whether you were a member of the Patriotic League.

    23 A. Yes, I was.

    24 Q. Tell us, please, when you became a member of

    25 the Patriotic League.

  62. 1 A. At the beginning of 1992.

    2 Q. Where?

    3 A. In Busovaca.

    4 Q. How long were you a member of the Patriotic

    5 League?

    6 A. Only two or three months, until -- that is to

    7 say, when, on the 9th of May, what happened happened,

    8 and perhaps ten days after that.

    9 Q. Who was the commander of the Patriotic League

    10 in Busovaca?

    11 A. We didn't have any commanders. It was a

    12 group of some 30-odd young men and I was sometimes at

    13 the head of a group, we tried to organise something.

    14 We tried but, let us be clear on this point, that

    15 Patriotic League at that particular time, what it did,

    16 and in my testimony I mentioned Florijan Glavocevic,

    17 and it refers to where we talked and where we placed

    18 ourselves in the service of this, to do some good, to

    19 help as much as we could the HVO to be united in the

    20 defence, and allegedly there was the threat from the

    21 Yugoslav People's Army and from the Serbs, but we were

    22 not accepted by Mr. Dario Kordic.

    23 Q. Well, we'll talk about Mr. Glavocevic later

    24 on. These are just in my introductory questions.

    25 But as you mentioned that, I'm going to --

  63. 1 you said alleged threat from the Serbs in the spring of

    2 1992.

    3 A. Yes, that's right, alleged.

    4 Q. So you consider that there was no threat from

    5 the Serbs when you say "alleged"?

    6 A. No, not in Busovaca.

    7 Q. What about the broader area of

    8 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

    9 A. Well, yes. There, yes.

    10 Q. Tell us, please, Witness J, as we just

    11 mentioned the Patriotic League, were you in Mehurici

    12 where they say the Patriotic League was founded for the

    13 area of Central Bosnia?

    14 A. No.

    15 Q. But you would agree with me that the

    16 Patriotic League did have a certain setup, that is to

    17 say, lower units, and superior command, and so on and

    18 so forth?

    19 A. Well, we can call it that, but we did not

    20 have anyone who gives orders. Nobody gave us orders.

    21 We were primarily organised to help in the defence of

    22 Busovaca and to help prevent what, in fact, did occur

    23 later on.

    24 Q. I am interested to know what the paper you

    25 have in front of you is. You keep referring to it.

  64. 1 A. I can give it to you. They are the names of

    2 the persons who were killed.

    3 Q. Just tell us. That many be sufficient.

    4 A. Well, it just contains the names of the

    5 people who were killed.

    6 Q. In Busovaca you mean?

    7 A. Yes, in Busovaca.

    8 Q. Thank you. When I asked you about the

    9 Patriotic League at the level of Central Bosnia, what I

    10 wanted to know was whether you had any contacts with

    11 Ibrahim Puric, who was the commander of the Patriotic

    12 League for Bosnia?

    13 A. No, and I don't even know him to this day.

    14 Q. When you spoke about the command of the

    15 Patriotic League in Busovaca, you said that for a time

    16 you were one of the sort of leaders of the group.

    17 A. Yes.

    18 Q. Who was there after you or before you? Was

    19 there anybody else?

    20 A. Well, after me -- I don't know who came after

    21 me.

    22 Q. For example, Dervis Sarajlic, was he there?

    23 A. No. He was one of us, that is to say, one of

    24 those people who, in fact, led those 30 young men who

    25 to tried to do something and balance out the

  65. 1 situation.

    2 Q. At that time, the time we're talking about,

    3 the soldiers of the Patriotic League, that is to say,

    4 the members that we're discussing now, where was their

    5 headquarters? Where did they do their training?

    6 A. Well, they didn't train anywhere, but their

    7 headquarters were in the fire brigade building in the

    8 centre of Busovaca, but they had no training at all.

    9 Q. Where did you say they had their

    10 headquarters? I'm sorry, I missed that.

    11 A. In the fire brigade building.

    12 Q. I see. Thank you. In the fire brigade

    13 building. But I'm not clear on your answer as to why

    14 you organised yourselves in Busovaca. To defend

    15 yourselves against whom at the beginning of 1992?

    16 A. Well, sir, the situation was so terrible and

    17 this was hovering in the air that we had to do

    18 something. We had to attempt to balance out and even

    19 out the situation, to try and do something, to try and

    20 do anything to prevent what happened from happening,

    21 but we did not succeed.

    22 Q. I did not understand something. To defend

    23 yourselves from whom?

    24 A. Well, defence from whom. If you're going

    25 to -- how shall I put it? Defend ourselves from whom.

  66. 1 That's a funny question. First of all --

    2 Q. Well, I'd like to ask you to answer.

    3 A. Well, first of all, let's get this clear.

    4 That Patriotic League, that portion that was in

    5 Busovaca and which we set up on our own initiative

    6 without any orders from anybody or without consulting

    7 anybody from above, we did not know anything about that

    8 nor did we contact anyone. But we did try, first and

    9 foremost, to try to agree with the Croats and to have a

    10 sort of platform from which to talk, because we had no

    11 armed force available.

    12 Q. Perhaps I'm not understanding you properly,

    13 but did you answer the question? Who were you

    14 preparing to defend yourselves against?

    15 A. Well, against the Serbs, of course, the

    16 Yugoslav army.

    17 Q. But a moment ago you said that they were the

    18 alleged enemy of you people in Busovaca.

    19 A. Well, when you look at the municipality of

    20 Busovaca today and the municipalities that surround the

    21 Busovaca municipality, it would be difficult to suppose

    22 that the threat came from the Serbs.

    23 Q. Well, I think that we'll agree that the

    24 former JNA bombed Busovaca in April. We need not

    25 suppose that. We agree that is something that

  67. 1 occurred. So that is a direct attack.

    2 A. Well, yes, direct.

    3 Q. Tell us, please, within the context of these

    4 questions, did you have any weapons yourself?

    5 A. Yes, I did.

    6 Q. Did you have your own weapons or as a member

    7 of the Patriotic League?

    8 A. No, I had my own weapons.

    9 Q. Just make some pauses before you answer,

    10 please. What weapons did you have?

    11 A. I had a Scorpion pistol.

    12 Q. How many bullets?

    13 A. Twenty, thirty, depending on the charge, but

    14 not more than thirty.

    15 Q. Tell us, please, about the following -- I

    16 have several questions. I prepared my questions

    17 chronologically, according to your testimony, so we're

    18 going to stick to that order more or less.

    19 With respect to the handing out of weapons in

    20 the former barracks of the Busovaca municipality, did

    21 you have any duties in agreements between the SDA and

    22 HDZ about the distribution of those barracks?

    23 A. No, none. None whatsoever.

    24 Q. Does that mean that you have no knowledge of

    25 the circumstances under which the Dragavoj barracks was

  68. 1 allotted to the HVO and the barracks at Kacuni or in

    2 the Silos went to the BH army?

    3 A. Under which circumstances? Well, it is easy

    4 to say. In the Silo there is a purely Muslim

    5 population and that is a fact. The HVO did not even

    6 attempt to take anything there. Whereas the events

    7 concerning the other two barracks, I have no

    8 information as to whom conducted the negotiations,

    9 whether there were any negotiations or what actually

    10 happened. I only know that when the weapons were taken

    11 from there, this was celebrated.

    12 Q. What did you say?

    13 A. The Croats celebrated.

    14 Q. You're thinking about Kaonik, are you?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Right. Now we're going to ask you a few

    17 questions about Kaonik. In connection with the weapons

    18 in Kaonik, were you a member of the team which

    19 negotiated the way in which the weapons would be

    20 distributed?

    21 A. No.

    22 Q. So you have no personal knowledge about

    23 that?

    24 A. No. Who was on the team, who negotiated, I

    25 have no idea, or whether they did at all.

  69. 1 Q. So you don't even know whether there were any

    2 negotiations?

    3 A. No.

    4 Q. But you said on Thursday that Dario Kordic

    5 was involved in this. So after all, you do have some

    6 knowledge about what happened, some direct knowledge.

    7 A. In those days and throughout that period of

    8 time, everything was under the leadership of Dario

    9 Kordic.

    10 Q. My question is specifically for Kaonik. Do

    11 you have any direct knowledge of the fact that

    12 Mr. Kordic was involved in planning the action that

    13 took place in Kaonik?

    14 A. I don't know that exactly, whether he was

    15 directly involved or one of his men, but that is less

    16 important.

    17 Q. In view of the fact that you told Their

    18 Honours your own conclusion, would you please tell us

    19 the details and the basis on which you made that

    20 conclusion that he was involved in planning the

    21 operation?

    22 A. Not a single event of any kind, any

    23 negotiations or anything that took place. Even

    24 children knew that only Dario Kordic was responsible,

    25 that everything was under his supervision.

  70. 1 Q. Apart from this general answer that you have

    2 given us several times during your direct-examination

    3 as well, my question is: Regarding this specific event

    4 in Kaonik, do you have any direct knowledge of any

    5 particular detail from which you make your conclusion

    6 that Dario Kordic was involved in the planning of the

    7 operation?

    8 A. I do not have a data about it. Let's say I

    9 don't.

    10 Q. So you don't have. Very well. Tell us,

    11 please, were you on the spot when this was happening at

    12 the Kaonik barracks?

    13 A. No. Who could have been on the spot? We all

    14 had to be in our homes. We couldn't even move around

    15 properly.

    16 Q. On the 9th of May, 1992, you were not allowed

    17 to move around?

    18 A. But there was a great power behind it. It

    19 was a show of might, of enormous might.

    20 Q. Tell us, please, how then did other

    21 Muslims -- how then were other Muslims present that

    22 evening when you were not allowed to move freely?

    23 A. I don't know about that.

    24 Q. Do you know at all that there was some

    25 skirmishes on that occasion?

  71. 1 A. I heard about it.

    2 Q. You heard about it, but you have no direct

    3 knowledge?

    4 A. No.

    5 Q. But what you heard goes against what you just

    6 said, that you were not allowed to move in 1992. A

    7 Muslim who was wounded, I think his name was Mesic, was

    8 there with his lorry, for example, yet you are claiming

    9 that there was no freedom of movement.

    10 A. Upon whose orders and on the basis of what

    11 agreement he was present, I don't know, but clearly if

    12 he was there then he must have been in agreement with

    13 someone, but I have no knowledge about that, why they

    14 were there or how.

    15 Q. Do you know perhaps, that Dervis Sarajlic was

    16 there too?

    17 A. I do.

    18 JUDGE MAY: The witness has said these are

    19 purely things which he heard and, as such, the evidence

    20 isn't going to assist us very much. So if we could

    21 move on, please, Mr. Naumovski.

    22 MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) I understand,

    23 Your Honour.

    24 Q. Today, Witness J, you frequently used the

    25 term "HVO." Allow me to clear that up a little. When

  72. 1 you say the "HVO," what exactly do you mean?

    2 A. The Croatian Defence Council.

    3 Q. Yes, but as an army, a military force, or in

    4 some other sense?

    5 A. As a military force, of course.

    6 Q. Witness J, do you know that in Busovaca

    7 municipality, as in other municipalities, the HVO had

    8 its civilian component that was also called HVO but

    9 that represented the civilian authority?

    10 A. Probably, yes, but I did not see the effects

    11 of those civilian authorities.

    12 Q. Do you know that HVO civilian authority

    13 existed in Busovaca?

    14 A. The civilian authorities did exist.

    15 Q. A moment ago you said or, rather, in answer

    16 to a question about Florijan Glavocevic, you said that

    17 he was a president of a war council but so such body

    18 existed, I think.

    19 A. I think it was called something like that.

    20 Q. But if you had said he was president of the

    21 HVO, that would be understandable, but no war council.

    22 That didn't exist.

    23 A. Yes, it did. Yes, it did. A war council did

    24 exist in Busovaca, headed by Glavocevic.

    25 Q. Did it represent the civilian authorities or

  73. 1 was this something else?

    2 A. It should have represented the civilian

    3 authority.

    4 Q. Very well. Talking about civilian

    5 authorities, do you know that those civilian

    6 authorities, regardless how we called them, whether we

    7 use the term that you are using or my term, the

    8 government of Busovaca, that certain Muslims stayed on

    9 working there, not just as ordinary employees but as

    10 functionaries in addition to Croats?

    11 A. Since the takeover of power by the HVO, there

    12 was no room for any Muslim any more.

    13 Q. What about Nezir Huseinspahic?

    14 A. Well, come on, sir.

    15 Q. Well, he stayed on in the HVO government, for

    16 much of 1992. Please answer my question "Yes"

    17 or "No".

    18 A. I don't know what you mean. Husein? Could

    19 you repeat the name, please?

    20 Q. Nezir Huseinspahic. I hope I got the name

    21 right. I think he was in charge of general

    22 administrative affairs.

    23 Let me give you another name then. The head

    24 of Kadasta (phoen) was Mrs. Alema, a Muslim lady.

    25 A. Yes.

  74. 1 Q. Then Mrs. Rizvic.

    2 A. Nobody worked. Not a single person was

    3 working. Let's get this right. This Alema that you

    4 mentioned, her mother was killed. When everything

    5 stopped, her mother was killed. Nobody was working.

    6 Q. So you're saying the people whose names I

    7 mentioned did not stay on working in the civilian

    8 authorities of the HVO after May 1992?

    9 A. Out of the question. That's ridiculous.

    10 Q. When we were talking about those bodies, do

    11 you know, from the municipal assembly formed after the

    12 first elections, that a body emerged from it, it was

    13 called the crisis staff, before the civilian HVO

    14 government was formed?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. Do you know who was the president of that

    17 crisis staff?

    18 A. Maybe I misnamed it. Maybe that could have

    19 been Glavocevic. Maybe I got it wrong.

    20 Q. The crisis staff that we're talking about,

    21 the president is Mr. Zoran Maric, ex officio, because

    22 he was president of the assembly, the one that was

    23 elected after the first elections.

    24 A. Yes, I remember that.

    25 Q. Was that the body you had in mind when you

  75. 1 referred to the war council?

    2 A. Zoran Maric came after Glavocevic.

    3 Q. Tell us, please, when we're talking about the

    4 military HVO component, do you know who was the

    5 commander of the Busovaca HVO, the military commander

    6 of the Busovaca HVO?

    7 A. Dario Kordic, sir.

    8 Q. From the beginning? The first commander?

    9 A. The first and last. Everything was under his

    10 control.

    11 Q. I didn't ask you that. I asked who was the

    12 commander.

    13 A. Dario Kordic.

    14 Q. Since you lived in Busovaca throughout that

    15 time and you know the people, I take it you must know

    16 when brigades were formed or, rather, the HVO Brigade

    17 in Busovaca. If I understand you well, if Mr. Kordic

    18 was the commander of everything, then he must have been

    19 the brigade commander as well.

    20 A. Every brigade has its own commander, sir, but

    21 then there's the commander above those commanders. You

    22 know, there's a hierarchy.

    23 Q. But that's precisely what I had in mind and

    24 what I asked you first, who is the commander of the HVO

    25 in Busovaca, and your answer was Mr. Kordic. There is

  76. 1 no scale, no hierarchy, in your answer.

    2 A. There isn't because he is Number 1. Everyone

    3 else is below him.

    4 Q. Talking about the command and so on, do you

    5 know that there was a command for the Operative Zone of

    6 Central Bosnia?

    7 A. Perhaps I heard about that. I may have.

    8 Q. You don't know anything about it?

    9 A. No.

    10 Q. Do you know perhaps who was the commander of

    11 the Central Bosnia Operative Zone?

    12 A. No.

    13 Q. Have you heard of the name Colonel Tihomir

    14 Blaskic?

    15 A. Yes.

    16 Q. In what context? What was he?

    17 A. I know he was a General, that he was

    18 mentioned very frequently, and that the people were

    19 saying that he should have been the commander of

    20 everything, but in reality it wasn't like that, that's

    21 for sure.

    22 Q. I'm trying to follow your thoughts. You

    23 heard that Mr. Blaskic should have been the commander

    24 of the Operative Zone, is that what you've said?

    25 A. Yes, quite.

  77. 1 Q. But you don't know whether he, in fact, was?

    2 A. On paper he was.

    3 Q. So your answer to my previous question as to

    4 who was the commander of the Operative Zone, you are

    5 now saying that on paper it was Mr. Tihimoir Blaskic?

    6 A. Probably, yes.

    7 Q. What was he by occupation?

    8 A. I don't know.

    9 Q. You said in one of your testimonies that he

    10 was a professional soldier, an officer of the JNA. So

    11 that was his occupation. So we agree that he was a

    12 professional soldier. We agree, don't we?

    13 A. Yes.

    14 Q. Very well. Thank you.

    15 MR. NAUMOVSKI: Before passing on to the main

    16 issue, Your Honours, I should like to ask how much more

    17 time I have left today, please.

    18 JUDGE MAY: About 20 minutes. Until half

    19 past five, and then you've got tomorrow, but allowing

    20 such time for us to have the argument about the dossier

    21 and, of course, any cross-examination by

    22 Mr. Mikulicic.

    23 MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) Thank you,

    24 Your Honours. I'll do my very best to shorten this as

    25 much as I can, but this witness has touched on many

  78. 1 issues and I really do have quite a lot of questions,

    2 but I'll do my best.

    3 Q. Tell us, please, a few questions of a

    4 different nature. Yesterday you mentioned Mr. Dragutin

    5 Zvonimir Cicak, rather, on Thursday, not yesterday, and

    6 you said he is your neighbour who has a holiday home

    7 some 500 or 600 metres away from your home?

    8 A. I think so, yes.

    9 Q. Your house was in the Visovacka (sic)

    10 Street? Is that its name? There are two or three

    11 streets with the same name. Sorry, Tisovacka. I think

    12 Mr. Kordic's street has the same name.

    13 A. Yes. There was a boulevard and this was

    14 Tisovacka Number 1.

    15 Q. So you say that the distance between your

    16 houses was 150 metres. It may be 300, but that's not

    17 so important.

    18 Those streets linked together to form one,

    19 and then the road goes on leading to the village of

    20 Ravno and then on to Tisovac. Do we agree?

    21 A. Yes.

    22 Q. Where exactly is Mr. Cicak's holiday home?

    23 Were those two streets linked up or further away?

    24 A. No, I think it's in the area called Bare, if

    25 I'm not mistaken.

  79. 1 Q. You're referring to Juriceve Bare?

    2 A. Yes.

    3 MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) Could I ask

    4 the usher for his assistance to show the witness this

    5 map? We can use the one that the Prosecutor has

    6 tendered, D1870.1. So will you please place it on the

    7 ELMO so I can ask the witness a few questions? It's

    8 today's map.

    9 Q. Would you be kind enough, Witness J, to point

    10 with the pointer to your house or, rather, Juriceve

    11 Bare, on the ELMO, where it says "Busovaca," then the

    12 village of Ravan. I think you know the map better than

    13 I do.

    14 A. There is Ravan, here somewhere (Indicating).

    15 Q. So Juriceve Bare is between Busovaca and

    16 Ravno?

    17 A. Yes, I think so.

    18 Q. I should now like to ask you to show us, on

    19 the same map, the village of Granice, a little to the

    20 north.

    21 MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) Could you

    22 move the map a little bit further down, please? Move

    23 the map down a little please, Mr. Usher. Move the map

    24 down on the ELMO, please. That's fine now.

    25 Q. So we see the village of Granice. So it's

  80. 1 quite to the other side of Busovaca. It's about two

    2 and a half or three and a half kilometres from

    3 Busovaca?

    4 A. Yes.

    5 Q. Why have I shown you this? Because

    6 Mr. Cicak, in his testimony, in his statement, said

    7 that he had a weekend home in this village of Granice,

    8 which is an entirely different area than Busovaca.

    9 Mr. Cicak said this on page 1389 of the transcript,

    10 lines 19 to 21. What do you say to that?

    11 A. That's something new to me.

    12 JUDGE MAY: It's not really for the witness

    13 say. It's a matter of comment. You could comment on

    14 it.

    15 MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) Thank you,

    16 Your Honours. I won't be using the map any more. We

    17 can go on.

    18 Q. Talking about the wheat in the silo that you

    19 mentioned, whose reserves were they, Witness J?

    20 A. Former Yugoslavia, ex-Yugoslavia.

    21 Q. Did you participate in the negotiations on

    22 the way that wheat would be used directly?

    23 A. No.

    24 Q. But you told us that the agreement was to

    25 share it 50/50.

  81. 1 A. Yes.

    2 Q. Between whom?

    3 A. Between the Muslims and the Croats.

    4 Q. You recounted an incident in connection with

    5 a truck, but I didn't quite understand your final

    6 conclusion. Was that the total quantity of grain and

    7 wheat that was shared 50/50 with the Croats?

    8 A. No.

    9 Q. Who was that grain left to?

    10 A. It was left to the Muslims.

    11 Q. Very well. Thank you. Having mentioned the

    12 silo as such, as a name which was meant to be used as a

    13 storage place for grain, do you know that in that same

    14 silo there was a camp for Croats already in January '93

    15 and onwards?

    16 A. That is not correct.

    17 Q. So it was not a camp there?

    18 A. No. A prison perhaps but not a camp.

    19 Q. But for whom was it a prison?

    20 A. Even for me.

    21 Q. What do you mean? You mean for soldiers?

    22 A. I too was a soldier.

    23 Q. Did you make a disciplinary omission?

    24 A. Yes, exactly.

    25 Q. So it must have been something serious when

  82. 1 you ended up in prison.

    2 A. It depends how you look at it. Anyway, I

    3 spent six days there.

    4 Q. And you didn't see civilians there and very

    5 poor living conditions?

    6 A. The conditions were poor, that's quite for

    7 sure, for me and for everyone else, but there wasn't a

    8 single civilian there and especially not Croats.

    9 Q. Tell me, please -- I have several questions

    10 linked to January 1993. Would you agree with me that

    11 the road was cut in the area between Kacuni and

    12 Bilalovac in January 1993?

    13 A. What do you mean cut?

    14 Q. I mean, traffic was blocked. The road was

    15 closed to traffic?

    16 A. It was not possible for vehicles to move

    17 along that road, that is, the vehicles of Croats.

    18 Until the 25th of January, 1993, it was not blocked.

    19 It was blocked towards Zenica. There were obstacles

    20 put up there by the HVO.

    21 Q. Tell me, please, you say that you were a

    22 civilian in January, 1993?

    23 A. Yes.

    24 Q. As of what date did you become a civilian

    25 without any military duties?

  83. 1 A. I had absolutely no military duties.

    2 Q. But did you have any military assignments in

    3 1992 when you were a member of the Patriotic League?

    4 A. I did, to go to the front. I was on the

    5 front at Visoko in September 1992.

    6 Q. Within which unit?

    7 A. 333rd Brigade.

    8 Q. Very well. That's what I was asking. Until

    9 when did you act as a soldier in that brigade?

    10 A. For 15 days and then I demobilised.

    11 Q. And you were not called up again?

    12 A. No.

    13 Q. Tell me, please -- I'm talking about the end

    14 of 1992 and January of 1993, for the first half -- did

    15 the TO have its own units in the town and in the

    16 environs?

    17 A. In the town, no, only in Kacuni.

    18 Q. Members of the TO travelled from Busovaca to

    19 Kacuni and came back? They went there to work, to put

    20 it that way?

    21 A. No, sir.

    22 Q. Well, tell us then.

    23 A. We were called in only if there was a need to

    24 go to the front, and that was how I was called up in

    25 September. We would stay there for about 15 days. We

  84. 1 went to Visoko, then after that Maglaj. You would be

    2 there for 15 days, return all your weapons that were

    3 issued to you, and you'd go back home and nobody would

    4 call you up again.

    5 Q. So there were no armed units of the Patriotic

    6 League or the TO in the town of Busovaca in December

    7 1992 and January 1993?

    8 A. In the town, no.

    9 Q. But did they come to town, certain BH army

    10 units, under arms? Did they come to town on certain

    11 occasions?

    12 A. Yes. This occurred on the 22nd of January,

    13 when Delija was being buried, Mirsad Delija, who was

    14 killed on the evening of the 21st. As far as I

    15 remember, they performed the honorary salute. Those

    16 boys who came went back to Kacuni after that.

    17 Q. Were they local people from the town of

    18 Busovaca?

    19 A. I really cannot remember, but there were

    20 people from Kacuni. I think most of them were from

    21 Kacuni.

    22 Q. Tell us, when we're talking about the war

    23 against the Serbs, did individuals from Busovaca, early

    24 on, participate in the war in Croatia, when the former

    25 Yugoslavia, or, rather, the former JNA attacked

  85. 1 Croatia? Did people go to Croatia from Busovaca, both

    2 Muslims and Croats, to fight the JNA and the Serbs?

    3 A. I really cannot answer that question.

    4 Q. Would you see people in uniform coming home

    5 on leave from Croatia, coming to Busovaca, the town of

    6 Busovaca, with military insignia?

    7 A. I don't know, really. I don't know.

    8 Q. You never saw anyone coming on leave wearing

    9 a uniform?

    10 A. I don't know.

    11 Q. So let us go on with this topic that I have

    12 touched upon, that is, January 1993. When I say that

    13 traffic was intercepted on the Kacuni-Bilalovac road

    14 for Croats, do you know what happened on the 24th of

    15 January, 1993, at around 3.00 in the afternoon in

    16 Kacuni?

    17 A. Yes, roughly, I do. There was an incident.

    18 Q. Were you there or do you know from what other

    19 people told you?

    20 A. From other people's stories. I wasn't

    21 there.

    22 Q. On that day at the checkpoint at Kacuni, two

    23 Croats were killed, Ivica Petrovic and Igor

    24 Bogdanovic. They were there in a civilian vehicle. Do

    25 you agree with me?

  86. 1 A. Yes, yes.

    2 Q. Do you know that a couple of days before

    3 that, in that same area, the kidnapping of Ignac

    4 Kostroman, one of the leaders of the Croatian people in

    5 the area, was attempted?

    6 A. No.

    7 Q. So you know nothing about it?

    8 A. No.

    9 Q. Excuse me. I just remembered something. You

    10 said Mirsad Delija was killed. Was his brother one of

    11 the commanders in Kacuni? Does he have a brother?

    12 A. He has two brothers.

    13 Q. Was one of them a commander on that roadblock

    14 in Kacuni?

    15 A. Probably, yes. I don't exclude the

    16 possibility, but I'm not sure. I wasn't there.

    17 Q. Thank you. Talking about this roadblock, and

    18 I think we could end with that today, you said on

    19 Thursday that you went to Split at the end of 1992 and

    20 that you needed a permit, which was signed for you by

    21 Niko Grubesic, and you went with that permit?

    22 A. Exactly.

    23 Q. So you went to Split. You passed this

    24 checkpoint, and I assume you passed through some others

    25 when leaving Busovaca. The road was, in fact,

  87. 1 scattered with roadblocks in those days, would you

    2 agree with me?

    3 A. Yes.

    4 Q. So you needed to have some other kinds of

    5 permits?

    6 A. I absolutely needed nothing else.

    7 Q. Did you cross a checkpoint held by the BH

    8 army?

    9 A. Yes.

    10 Q. So did you have to have some kind of paper,

    11 document?

    12 A. No.

    13 Q. So you were allowed to pass?

    14 A. Yes. Because if you were going from

    15 Busovaca, then you would go to Novi Travnik, Prozor,

    16 Jablanica, Metkovic, and Split.

    17 Q. The fact that you did not need a permit, as

    18 you say, did this apply to both Croats and Muslims?

    19 I'm talking about a permit from the BH army.

    20 A. Generally nobody needed one, that's for

    21 sure.

    22 Q. So passage was free?

    23 A. If you had that paper.

    24 Q. I see in front of me a permit.

    25 MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) Perhaps if

  88. 1 it's not too late or shall we leave it for tomorrow,

    2 Your Honour?

    3 JUDGE MAY: Deal with it now.

    4 MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) Thank you.

    5 Could the usher please distribute copies, one for the

    6 witness, for Their Honours and the court.

    7 THE REGISTRAR: D37/1.

    8 MR. NAUMOVSKI: (Interpretation) Please show

    9 it to the witness. It's important that he should see

    10 it.

    11 Q. So we're talking about the same route,

    12 Vitez-Prozor. So this is a permit for the passage of

    13 persons and vehicles, as it says, issued to

    14 Mr. Munib Kajmovic in the TO headquarters, on the 11th

    15 of October, 1992, and it is signed by the TO commander

    16 in Vitez, Sefkija Dzidic. Have you looked at it,

    17 Witness J?

    18 A. Yes.

    19 Q. Do you agree that this is a permit issued by

    20 the Muslim authorities, so to speak, in those days?

    21 A. Yes, but of Vitez municipality.

    22 Q. Yes, but for passage along the same road that

    23 you took as far as Prozor. But you said you didn't

    24 need any permit.

    25 A. I did not.

  89. 1 Q. But do you agree that this is a permit for

    2 the same stretch of road?

    3 A. Probably, but I see it for the first time.

    4 Q. Very well. Thank you.

    5 JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn now until half past

    6 two tomorrow.

    7 Witness J, would you please be back tomorrow

    8 again at half past two, where I hope we'll be able to

    9 finish your evidence.

    10 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

    11 at 5.34 p.m., to be reconvened on

    12 Tuesday, the 13th day of July, 1999

    13 at 2:30 p.m.